#98600 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) kenhowardau Hi Howard, Thanks for your reply. ------------ <. . .> KH: > > Formal-meditators always insist that satipatthana means to know things (walking, for example) in the normal, conventional, sense. > > H: > Ken, if you meditated you would just plain know this is untrue. ------------- Howard, if you considered the world to be the presently arisen paramattha dhammas you would just plain know it is true. :-) ---------------------- H: > When doing walking meditation, one, of course, is paying most attention to what is involved in walking, and, after a while, only that is observed, namely bodily sensations, especially earth (solidity) and air (motion), constant change, cetana as an impersonal impulsion, etc. It is fascinating - quite amazing really, and along with it, increasing mindfulness and deep calm. ----------------------- Right now (whether we care about them or not) dhammas are being experienced. Therefore, experiencing dhammas is not the issue. Experiencing them with right understanding is the issue. If only we had right theoretical understanding, the direct experiencing would continue to take care of itself, and satipatthana could occur. Ken H #98601 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:48 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? nichiconn Thanks for laughing, Chris, I'll take a big piece of humble pie, too - please! I hope your new status doesn't mean your mother isn't well, pup. If she isn't though, "congratulations on your adversity". I don't hear that much any more, but I like it. Killing insects! Don't remind me. A colony met with disaster at my hand not long ago and all my consolation comes down to 'good thing you know better & at least there wasn't a lot of premeditation'; I did keep sucking them up after the initial slip of the shop vac. I should end the story there, but no. There are live ants out back the next several days piling up their dead in front of the concrete buddha. But I'll stop here. peace, connie #98602 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:57 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? nichiconn Hi Howard, ------------------------------------------ If we look at a coat, we may see the coat as a whole, or we may see patterns within it, or we may see individual threads, and this is a gradation of increasing detail. -------------------------------------------- c: I'm sorry. This reminds me of DN 29: << It was Uddaka Raamaputta who used to say: "He sees, but does not see." What is it that, seeing, one does not see? You can see the blade of a well-sharpened razor, but not its edge. That is what he meant by saying: "He sees, but does not see." He spoke in reference to a low, vulgar, worldly ignoble thing of no spiritual significance, a mere razor." >> What is the advantage as you see it? peace, connie #98603 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:14 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, We live most of the time in the world of conventional truth, and there is much ignorance about the world of absolute truth, the world of paramattha dhammas. In your letter you give an example of young people who are displeased with situations in their countries and who commit acts of violence (dosa) in order to show that they are discontented. Their accumulated violence is the real cause that they commit these acts, and the situations they are displeased with are only opportunities for their accumulated dosa to appear. Dosa will always arise so long as it has not been eradicated. In our daily life there are many moments of aversion, dosa. We may wake up with a slightly unpleasant feeling. At first we do not realize that there is dosa, but then we may remember an unpleasant event, for example, unkind words someone may have spoken to us the day before. Or we may worry about a difficult situation we will have to face that day. These circumstances are not the real cause of our dosa. The outward circumstances, the people we meet change, but there is still our accumulated dosa and it will come out, always finding an object. There will always be reasons for dosa so long as it has not been eradicated yet. The person who has attained the third stage of enlightenment, the angm, has eradicated dosa. The way leading to the eradication of defilements is the development of right understanding of them when they appear. There is no other way. How can we realize that dosa is a conditioned nma? Not by thinking about the dosa which has fallen away already, or about the events which conditioned its arising, but by being aware of it when it appears at the present moment. Only if there is mindfulness of phenomena as they appear through the six doors will we gradually realize that they are conditioned realities, not self. If there is awareness only of phenomena appearing through the eye-door or through the ear-door, it is not enough. There is not only visible object or sound, but also seeing, hearing, attachment, lobha, aversion, dosa, and other realities. ******* Nina. #98604 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:09 am Subject: Re: Description or doctrine/instruction? kenhowardau Hi Chris, --- C: > Ken got a swipe and the Venerable Bhikshuni got respectful disagreement. Thanks Ken! (and sorry!). --- No apologies necessary! We need spirited discussions at DSG, so please keep it up. I'm just glad my message was attributed "read" status. That's not always the case. :-) Ken H #98605 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: toothstick again. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 20-jun-2009, om 21:04 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > What is toothstick? ;> ------- N: When traveling with Sarah I remeber that she offered sweetwood (naan) to the monks who were in our group. To chew on and then they could use it as a brush for cleaning their teeth. Or just small prickers one can use as they do a lot in Thailand. Lodewijk always uses these. ------- > > > N: ....All this is to help the monks to have kusala citta > > instead of akusala citta, even in small matters. > > L: Nice to hear that. It support me, because I doubt again and > again. I am constantly thinking that maybe the way is to change > akusala for kusala. And then I want to change things. I am > constantly trying to change everything, because I dont like it. ------- N: We have to learn: not us who can change from akusala to kusala, but conditions. I quote what I wrote before and have quoted already several times, but I like this passage: (Expositor p. 100): As to the word 'bent on' , the Pali has: pari.naamita, bend to, change into. There can be a change from akusala to kusala if one understands the right conditions to be cultivated. An abundance of right reflection is also a condition for kusala. We need good friends who give us stimulating talks. We then read that the Tiika refers to the four wheels that are favorable conditions for the arising of kusala citta with right understanding. These four wheels are: living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, right aspiration, and meritorious deeds formerly done. (See AN IV, 4, 1, The Wheel).... Kusala citta accompanied by wisdom needs many conditions, some stemming from the past and others that are of the present. The Dhammasanga.nii, when dealing with the first type of kusala citta, states: and then it enumerates the many cetasikas that assist the citta. The Expositor (p. 76 etc.) explains numerous meanings of samaya, such as: time or occasion, concurrence of causes, moment. It explains that the should be classed as the one moment in the sense of occasion (samaya), they form the occasion for the production of merit. It states: It shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and it points out . It stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous occurrence of many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many cetasikas, each performing their own function. By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual contribution towards the production of a common result. The Expositor explains with regard to samaya as condition: When we learn about all the different factors that are necessary conditions for the arising of one moment of kusala citta with paaa we are reminded that kusala citta does not belong to us and that it falls away immediately. Kusala citta is very rare and even more so kusala citta with paaa. We have accumulated a great amount of akusala and thus there are conditions for its arising very often. This is a pungent reminder to develop all kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity. ---------- > > L: I like todays Atthasalini: > first incidence of consciousness on an object, and arises touching > the object. Therefore it is mentioned first. Touching by contact, > consciousness experiences by feeling, perceives by perception, > wills by volition. Hence it has been said: - 'Bhikkhus, touched one > feels, touched one perceives, touched one wills.'> > > especially this: touching by contact, consciousness experiences by > feeling, perceives by perception, wills by volition...touched one > feels, touched one perceives, touched one wills. ------ N: I think the meaning is not that citta feels, but conditioned by contact feeling feels. It is said that consciousness feels to remind that it is not a person. ----- #98606 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) nilovg Hi Howard, It is good you bring up this point, and also Albert's translation of the Kuru people are good instigations to consider more: what do we know actually, and what should be known. I can give the theoretical answer but do I understand in depth what I say? Not yet. A difficult subject that we discuss here. Let us begin with the sutta passage. Op 20-jun-2009, om 16:55 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: Monks, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing. Just as whoever pervades the great ocean with his awareness encompasses whatever rivulets flow down into the ocean, in the same way, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing. ------ N: The text is not so easy but it seems that the whole practice can be implied in mindfulness of the body. Interesting. This reminds me of the Kuru text: ---------- N: As I understand the satipatthaanasutta, also when the citta applies Mindfulness of Body, that is, of ruupa, this means that feeling, citta and the other naamadhammas are not excluded at all. Evenso, when applying Mindfulness of Feeling, ruupa and the other naamadhammas are not excluded. When experiencing hardness there is also the experience that appears, but not at the same time as hardness. There is also feeling that appears. If there is no awareness of naama, one is bound to take naama for self. Realities that are not known one is bound to take for self. All these realities appear naturally, and can be objects of awareness and understanding. ------ > H: With the moderate restriction of the scope of attention, more > detail > is observed and there is an enormous increase in clarity, and, > moreover, all > other phenomena also come with range and are seen clearly, and if > one does > this, the matter becomes indisputable. ------- N: It is because of conditions that you are walking and doing this. Hardness appears, but who experiences this? By restricting the objects, one does not *let* realities arise because of their own conditions. But I think that you agree that right understanding of one's different cittas is indispensable. I think that Ken expresses this clearly: ------- Ken: If only we had right theoretical understanding, the direct experiencing would continue to take care of itself, and satipatthana could occur. ------ N: Sati and pa~n~naa take care of themselves, when theoretical right understanding has been developed. But I repeat that I do not understand all this in depth. Nina. #98607 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) sarahprocter... Hi Connie (Mike, Ken H & Rob Ep*) --- On Thu, 18/6/09, connie wrote: >re: #98516, >>S: What is meant here is: even without reference to bodily and mental aggregates the term `person' is used to denote a popular convention in both its specific and its general sense." >>Let me try to rephrase it: "What is meant here is: even when there is no reference to namas and rupas or khandhas, words such as 'people' are to be understood as merely common expressions used for convenience. " >"Hereon it was also said by the Exalted One: "These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, terms of speech, designations in common use in the world." (Dialogues, i 263). >D I 9, 440: Imaa kho citta, lokasama~n~naa lokaniruttiyo lokavohaaraa lokapa~n~nattiyo, yaahi tathaagato voharati aparaamasa'' nti. Cy: 439-443. Atha bhagavaa tassa byaakara.nena saddhi.m attano byaakara.na. m sa.msanditu. m ''evameva kho cittaa''tiaadiini vatvaa puna opammato tamattha.m saadhento ''seyyathaapi citta gavaa khiira''ntiaadimaah a. S: Thanks Connie for digging out the long Pali quote - let me know when your Pali's up to the task of translating it or of giving a rather long summary:). Why not at least say what you get out of it? Perhaps you could even lead a thread (while we go off on our next travels on Wed nite), with a sentence at a time with rough translation or a few word translations. I'm sure Scott, Alberto, Mike, Nina, Suan, Lukas and others would be glad to join in... Metta, Sarah *Rob Ep, looking at the subject heading - are you still around??? ======== #98608 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reposting: Questions regarding MN117 (The Great Forty) sarahprocter... Dear Jessica, --- On Thu, 18/6/09, jessicamui wrote: >>>J: then what conditions the concept to arise ? > ... >> S: It doesn't exist in an absolute sense so it doesn't arise. Like when we're asleep, dreaming occurs and there are all sorts of images. However, they aren't real - it's only the mind-door cittas (and cetasikas) which are arising and falling away with bhavanga cittas arising and falling away in between. It depends on sa~n~naa (perception/ memory) in particular as to what ideas or imagery will be marked from moment to moment. When we're awake, it's much the same, only there are sense door processes in between the sets of mind door processes as well. >J: Sarah, when you said it doesn't arise, does it mean that it is always there or it is created by sanna ? .... S: We can't say the dream or concept is always there. If there is no dreaming, there is no dream. Yes, without sanna, no dream, no concept, no idea. The sanna marks or 'creates' the dream or concept by remembering what has been experienced through the senses and 'marked' before. .... >If it is always there, the citta knows it as the attention (manasikara) directs the citta to it and the sanna percieve it as sanna understands. .... S: As I said, we can't refer to conepts as 'always there' or as being impermanent. Manasikara and sanna are universal cetasikas when arise with every citta, marking and attending to their objects. So, even at moments of seeing or hearing, sanna and manasikara perform their duties. .... >If this is the case, its even-presence nature is depending on the rupa. So it is not "unconditional" . If it is "created" by sanna and/or citta, then it is "conditioned" by the sanna and citta. ... S: The citta and and sanna are conditioned realities. Concepts are not realities, so we cannot say they're conditioned. Think of the mirage of water- it doesn't exist, so it doesn't make sense to talk about the water being conditioned in anyway. ... >J: understood. I just have problem in understand the "unconditionallity" nature of the concept. ... S: It just means that which isn't conditioned. The mirage isn't conditioned, so it's not sankhara, but asankhara. Do keep pursuing these and the other points until satisfied - very helpful questions! Metta, Sarah ======== #98609 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Be here now sarahprocter... Hey Connie, Glad it didn't end up in the drafts pile-up or the recycle bin.... --- On Thu, 18/6/09, connie wrote: C:>>>....javana - kusala, akusala, phala or kiriya, as the case may be, .... >>S: Excuse me butting in, but what's *phala* javana? ... >C: O no! Excuse me for opening another can of worms. Htoo used to mention ariya phala and magga javanas. .... S: Oh, of course - the lokuttara magga and phala cittas (as well as the cittas immediately preceding these), all in the same magga viithi (process), all functioning as javana cittas. .... >#47972 < Apart from kiriya-javana cittas, all other javana cittas creates kamma with the exception of phala citta or fruition consciousness which are resultant cittas of lokuttara kusala cittas or magga cittas or path-consciousness. > ... S: Well, I'm not sure we can say "all other javana cittas creates kamma...", but that's yet another can of worms... .... >First there's the sotapatti maggatthaana puggala and (#48343) < The only javana citta that can arise in these individuals is sotapatti magga citta. So other 54 javana cittas cannot arise in them. If arise these individuals are no more new sotapams > but sotapatti phalatthaana puggalas. >Actually, I "inadvertently" included phala when I'd just been puzzling over why, about 15 minutes into his lecture (dhammalecturevideo .org/pathana_ u_punno/Abhid4. wmv), the venerable P had erased vipaka & replaced it with kiriya but then let phala stand after he'd said "for javana you can remember kusala, akusala, phala and ..." .... S: I think I was a little confused because if lokuttara is not mentioned, one may think of phala in a more general sense of vipaka, but maybe that's 'suttanta method'...:/ ... >If I'd had to guess I'd've said phala and magga were more jhaana- than javana-like. .. but now that I think about it, they're the brick unlayers, aren't they? .... S: Now 'more jhaana- than javana-like', is really opening a new can of worms too. I'll have to leave that to you and Scott or Mike to debate - could go on 'til my next touch-down back here.... As for the brick unlayers, I understood this to particularly refer to the magga cittas. Pause to check the Atth. quote again: " 'Leading to dispersion' is 'going towards that dispersion which he has made his object.' It is a name for the Ariyan Paths.....'Leading to dispersion' are those states which go about destroying that very round, like a man who continually removes the bricks as they are laid by the mason." I think we could draw a good analogy with Ken H's 'cumulation' in his drafts folder, but we all get the point - the 'fruit' of his efforts here is just the fruit, not the 'dispersion' in itself.... Just a few dreams... .... ....... S: and now to the baton raising... >>S: .... Determing is just one citta....OK, a 'rudder' as Htoo used to remind us. However, I think it's more accurate to say it's the javanas, the kusala, akusala (or kiriya) accumulations that really set the tone, conditioned by all the previous habits and tendencies. (A)yoniso manasikaara referring to the whole set of determining + javanas. .... >C: Ok, since both doors (adverting/avajjana ) & determining/ votthapana) are ahetuka kiriya cittas; but it still 'looks' to me like the conductor/votthapan a raises the baton and as each javana/section comes in, the volume increases & when they suddenly stop playing, the echo or dying out sound is "retained"/tadaaram mana. Uh huh, juvenile understanding takes a bow. .... S: Claps.... I think the key word is 'ahetuka'. One ahetuka conductor who seems to lead, whilst really the javana instruments follow according to prior accumulations, nat. decisive support.... But a great juvenile orchestra - just can't help the petty fine-tuning.......comes from all the years of teaching and marking accumulated... ... >>>What's sankappa again? PTS... (snip): VbhA 117. Sankappa is defd at DhsA 124 as (cetaso) abhiniropana, i. e. application of the mind. See on term also Cpd. 238. .... >>S: Vitakka cetasika. As Nina, said, 'intention' is a misleading translation, (though 'thinking' or 'thought' is problematic too....) ... >C: and what's it's relation to (a)yoniso manasikaara is what I was off wondering... vitakka ... sankappa ... .... S: OK, good qu. Vitakka with all kamavacara cittas other than the 5 pairs of seeing etc. Sankappa a synonym for vitakka. Samma sankappa seems to usually be used for the 8fold path factor, but I'm sure we can say that anytime vitakka/sankappa is kusala, it's 'samma' and vice versa with 'micha'. So, yoniso manasikara refers to the entire (kusala) process, starting with your conductor. Each of these cittas is, of course, accompanied by vitakka, but only the kusala ones can be said to be accompanied by kusala vitakka (or samma sankappa). Just more ideas or dreams.... I'm trying to catch up with short replies, but as Rob Ep and Sukin also know, grand intentions in this regard are one thing.... Metta, Sarah ======= #98610 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Be here now sarahprocter... Dear Scott & Mike --- On Wed, 17/6/09, Scott wrote: >>Sarah: "I liked your commments below on the passage a lot - very interesting. ..Momentary practise only....no one to do anything." >Scott: Nope. No one to do anything. No one to arrange conditions for something to happen as a result. No one at all. And the moment of 'pratice' is so very brief. When someone wants so much to be 'a buddhist' this is such a hard pill to swallow! ... Sarah: Yes, when there's the wanting to be an 'anything'... I see you and Mike have been busy swallowing different pills recently (ha, ha! Btw, LOVED the cat-calls. Would love to see a pic of Miss Little jumping up onto your lap when you have all your texts finely balanced around you. Please ask one of your youngsters to try and get the shot for the album1 And did Mike match that tale with his Catriarch Istar! Reminded me of the love-hate relationship my mother used to have with her very old cat, Pooch.... Anyway, really been enjoying your discussions together. Mike, you've been making some great points, such as: "I'd say, anything we'd refer to as 'an activity' would designate a vast number of consciousnesses/mental factors, wouldn't it?" "A conventional 'act' comprises too many consciousnesses/mental factors to count, so could hardly be said to be 'kusala' or akusala, I think...." "Yes, let's take the circumambulation of stupas or the making offerings to bhikkhus, for example. Conventionally, these could be called 'practices'. But if actual pa.tipatti occurs at all during these activities, it is momentary and attended by pa~n~na (not avijjaa). So once again, conventional 'practice' vs. ultimate 'practice', as I see it--important not to confuse the two." Yes! I could have quoted many other great points made by you both. Metta, Sarah ========= #98611 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 6/21/2009 1:58:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: Hi Howard, ------------------------------------------ If we look at a coat, we may see the coat as a whole, or we may see patterns within it, or we may see individual threads, and this is a gradation of increasing detail. -------------------------------------------- c: I'm sorry. This reminds me of DN 29: << It was Uddaka Raamaputta who used to say: "He sees, but does not see." What is it that, seeing, one does not see? You can see the blade of a well-sharpened razor, but not its edge. That is what he meant by saying: "He sees, but does not see." He spoke in reference to a low, vulgar, worldly ignoble thing of no spiritual significance, a mere razor." >> What is the advantage as you see it? --------------------------------------- I see the advantage as starting to know things as they are. I think it a (bare) beginning of wisdom/insight and disenchantment. We do of course, as Ken says, see sights, hear sounds, etc all the time. But without a refinement of observation, no matter how often we hear of how things are, we misperceive. ---------------------------------------- peace, connie ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98612 From: "Dr. Han Tun" Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:03 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (24) hantun1 Physical Phenomena (24) Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 2. The Eight Inseparable Ruupas (continuation) Han: This chapter deals with the eight inseparable ruupas (avinibbhoga ruupas), namely, solidity, cohesion, temperature, motion, colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence (pathavii, aapo, tejo, vaayo, va.n.na, gandha, rasa, ojaa). We have read colour and odour. We will now read flavour. -------------------- As regards flavour, the "Dhammasanga.nii" ( 629) mentions different kinds of flavour, such as sour, sweet, bitter or pungent; they may be nice or nauseous, but they are all just flavour, experienced through the tongue. The "Atthaslin" (II, Book II, Ch III, 320) defines flavour as follows: [Note 4] "... all tastes have the characteristic of striking the tongue, the property of being the object of gustatory cognition, the manifestation of being the field of the same...." Its proximate cause are the four Great Elements. Flavour does not arise alone, it needs the four Great Elements that arise together with it, and it is also accompanied by the other ruupas included in the eight inseparable ruupas. We are attached to food and we find its flavour very important. As soon as we have tasted delicious flavour, attachment tends to arise. We are forgetful of the reality of flavour which is only a kind of ruupa. When we recognize what kind of flavour we taste, we think about a concept, but this thinking is conditioned by the experience of flavour through the tongue. [Note 4] See also Visuddhimagga XIV, 57. -------------------- Chapter 2. The Eight Inseparable Ruupas to be continued. with metta, Han #98613 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:40 pm Subject: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) kenhowardau Hi Sarah and Connie (and Lucas), -------- <. . .> S: > Thanks Connie for digging out the long Pali quote - let me know when your Pali's up to the task of translating it or of giving a rather long summary:). Why not at least say what you get out of it? ---------- Shush, Sarah! I think Connie may have been making a small, good natured joke. :-) ------------- <. . .> S (to KH): With regard to the written word, I think it's just that you pause and consider it more carefully than others of us. ------------- That's the charitable way of seeing it, thank you. You could have said that I indulged in excessive theorising. I'll settle for a mixture of the two. :-) --------------------- S: > I agree that the second part is rather ambiguous and am not sure if that's the translator or us. Scott or Connie can probably assist with the Pali. Let me try to rephrase it: "What is meant here is: even when there is no reference to namas and rupas or khandhas, words such as 'people' are to be understood as merely common expressions used for convenience." ---------------------- That's very good, thanks, I hadn't seen it that way. ------------------------- <. . .> S: How about we tackle those conditions and accumulations and you give me the key or password to your drafts folder? I'm sure there's a treasure trove waiting for us all to discover. It must be a lawyer-kind-of-thing - the drafts folder. Alternatively, if you don't trust me with the key, how about trying for a while without a drafts folder - sharing the 'raw' thoughts as those of us 'on the run' do? ------------------------- After you wrote that I did write a summary of some of the contents, but . . . . you guessed it . . . it's still in my drafts folder. :-) There was one addressed to Lucas in the Be here Now thread. It contained a question that might be relevant, so I'll try to post something *on the run:* In his Be Here Now talk, Ven Dhammadharo spoke about intention. I liked everything he said about it, of course, but I couldn't quite tell when he was referring to the concept of intention, and when he was referring to cetana (or even chanda). ----- "Bhikkhu: <. . .> Why not be aware without intention." ----- KH: Cetana is a universal cetasika, so I assume the bhikkhu is referring here to the concept of intention. -------- Bhikkhu: "because in fact, you cannot be aware, nor can you do anything, just by intention. Intention is anatta, notself." -------- KH: Now he is talking about the reality. Cetana is anatta, therefore it cannot be used to change the present object into something else. To cut a long question short: Is it fair to say that cetana functions purely within the present moment: and any intention to change things, or to do something in a future moment, is merely thinking (concept)? One reason I am asking this is because I am not sure about Ven D's concluding remark: ----- > "There is no intention in the eightfold Path, none whatsoever. Intention is not among the eight factors of the eightfold Path." ----- There is cetana. It may not be classed as a Factor of the path, but it is nonetheless present. So is Ven D referring here to the concept of intention? Ken H PS: Some of the theorising I tried to leave out: Cetana's functions are confined purely to the experiencing of the arammana (present object of consciousness). As soon as we talk about the intention to *do* something that is only the concept of intending. For example, the intention to practice satipatthana (or anything) in the future is purely thinking, and not cetana at all. So where does that leave us when we talk about (for example) the intention to kill? Someone stop me! #98614 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:17 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? nichiconn Thanks Howard. Speaking of misperception... can you tell me the difference between percept and apperception? Or any thoughts on nimitta? Happy Father's Day! connie re:#98611 #98615 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:33 pm Subject: The Blind Sea-Turtle bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Precious yet often wasted is this Human Opportunity! The Blessed Gotama Buddha once explained: Bhikkhus & friends, imagine a single floating ring drifting in the great oceans! Imagine also a blind turtle, which surfaces only once every hundred years... What do you think, Bhikkhus, would that blind turtle by chance often dive right up under this randomly drifting single ring & insert its neck in the hole? If it ever would at all, Sir, it would only happen after an incredibly long time! Yet, Bhikkhus & friends, I tell you, that this would happen sooner, than a fool, who has fallen into the lower worlds would again regain this rare human state... Why so? Because down there exists neither behaviour guided by the Dhamma, nor any honesty, nor any morality, nor any good doing or meritorious activity... There prevails only this evil: beat or be beaten, eat or be eaten, cruel merciless killing and voraciously swallowing up of any weak. Why is it so primitive there? Because, Bhikkhus, there nobody have seen these 4 Noble Truths! What four? All t his is Suffering; This Greedy Craving is the sole Cause of all Suffering; No Craving is the End of Suffering; The Noble 8-fold Way Ends all Suffering, Therefore should an effort be made NOW to understand the 4 Noble Truths! Comment: Despite the fact that downfall is a common event occurring at most deaths (>97%) many beings think that the downfall either not happen to them (sic!), or that it does not exist at all... They cannot remember the last nasty surprise... Learning anything about cause and effect is thus effectively disabled! The very same mistakes are thus repeated, life after life, almost endlessly! The Blind Sea-Turtle Simile... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikāya. [V:455-6] section 56: Saccasamyutta. Thread 47: The Ring and Blind Turtle ... Precious & rare is this human chance! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Don't be a blind turtle! #98616 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cetanaa, intention. was: To Rob Ep. Part 1. nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 22-jun-2009, om 2:40 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > "There is no intention in the eightfold Path, none whatsoever. > Intention is not among the eight factors of the eightfold Path." > ----- > > There is cetana. It may not be classed as a Factor of the path, but it > is nonetheless present. So is Ven D referring here to the concept of > intention? ------- N:He means it is not a Path factor. Some people translate right thinking, sammaa sa:nkappa as right intention. Ven. D wants to emphasize here that one should not think of a self who has intention to do this or that. ------- > > Ken H: > > PS: Some of the theorising I tried to leave out: Cetana's functions > are > confined purely to the experiencing of the arammana (present object of > consciousness). As soon as we talk about the intention to *do* > something > that is only the concept of intending. For example, the intention to > practice satipatthana (or anything) in the future is purely thinking, > and not cetana at all. ------ N: People may mean chanda, wish to do. So we really need the Pali. But as you say, intention to do is often with a thought of self doing. -------- > > Ken H: So where does that leave us when we talk about (for example) > the > intention to kill? ------ N: Then there is akusala cetanaa or akusala kamma. Kamma is cetanaa. ----- Nina. #98617 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:00 pm Subject: To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) nichiconn Hi Sarah, Ken, Pali Readers, -------- <. . .> S: > Thanks Connie for digging out the long Pali quote - let me know when your Pali's up to the task of translating it or of giving a rather long summary:). Why not at least say what you get out of it? ---------- Shush, Sarah! I think Connie may have been making a small, good natured joke. :-) ------------- c: LOL... hadn't thought of that! No, it took me awhile to find it & by then it was "drafts or dodgers" because I had to leave. I was hoping someone else (Lukas? Alberto?) might pick out the relevant section and offer a translation (#98537). All I really get out of it is 'o, those are the neat verses about the two truths at the end'. peace, connie #98618 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:14 pm Subject: abhi~n~neyyaa szmicio Dear Nina, Sarah, Connie, Alberto and friends, Path of Dicrimination states about elements and other dhatus to be directly known(abhi~n~neyyaa), but it comes to te part of body parts(kesaa,lomaa,nakhaa) and states of each parts that it has to be directly known. The reflection of body parts is an object to samatha and its consistent in Visudhimagga. Why Sariputta said kessa abhi~n~neyya, loma abhi~n~neyya... next to dhatus? Does parts of the body can be directli known? I always consider parts of body as object to samatha mainly. My best wishes Lukas P.s Wonderful to hear in details what was said before in Adittapariyaaya Sutta, I mean the first few pages of Patisambhidamagga. It shows how important is the development of right understanding, not just words of conventional word, that is common to Suttanta. #98619 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:41 pm Subject: paticcasamupada szmicio Dear friends, I want to ask another question. Paticcasamupada starts from moha, that is nama and it's the begining of dukkha. It conditions our misery. The last words of Dependent Origination states: And here jati means birth, but it's not nama, it cannot be directly known. Marana also is death, that cannot be known. But Path of Discrimination states: Regarding death, there was said in visudhimagga, Reflection on death(marana) that is not a conventional word but the decay of life faculty that is nama. How should we understand marana in Dependent Origination? My best wishes Lukas #98620 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:21 am Subject: Object-condition, arammana_paccaya, sprlrt Hi (Lukas & all) Patthna ... 2. Concise exposition of conditions ... Object-condition The ayatana of visible form is condition, as object-condition, for the eye-consciousness element and its associated dhammas [cetasikas]. The ayatana of sound is condition, as object-condition, for the ear-consciousness element and its associated dhammas. The ayatana of odour is condition, as object-condition, for the nose-consciousness element and its associated dhammas. The ayatana of flavour is condition, as object-condition, for the tongue-consciousness element and its associated dhammas. The ayatana of tangibility is condition, as object-condition, for the body-consciousness element and its associated dhammas. [Ayatanas are the paramattha dhammas involved in the current sense or mind door process of cittas, vithi] The ayatana of sound... tangible are condition, as object-condition, for the mind element and its associated dhammas. [The mind element, mano_dhatu, comprises the three cittas (the two sampaticchana/receiving, vipaka, and the paca_avajjana/adverting, kiriya) that, along with the dvi_paca_viana, eye...body consciousness, arise in sense door processes only.] All dhammas are condition, as object-condition, for the mind-consciousness element and its associated dhammas. [The mind-consciousness element, mano_viana_dhatu, comprises all the other cittas (89-10-3=76) arising both in sense door processes and mind door as well, such as kusala or akusala cittas, and also cittas that don't arise in a process, such as bhavanga, life continuum.] Whatever citta and cetasika dhammas are arising concerned about any dhamma whatever, these [latter] dhammas are condition, as object condition, for those [citta and cetasika] dhammas. [Paatti, concepts, are included as object-condition (any dhamma whatever)] pli aaramma.napaccayo - ruupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. saddaayatana.m sotavi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. gandhaayatana.m ghaanavi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. rasaayatana.m jivhaavi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. pho.t.thabbaayatana.m kaayavi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. ruupaayatana.m saddaayatana.m gandhaayatana.m rasaayatana.m pho.t.thabbaayatana.m manodhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. sabbe dhammaa manovi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. ya.m ya.m dhamma.m aarabbha ye ye dhammaa uppajjanti cittacetasikaa dhammaa, te te dhammaa tesa.m tesa.m dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. #98621 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Visuddhimagga Ch XVII. paticcasamupada nilovg Dear Lukas (Connie and Larry), Larry, I hope you will also put forward your view. So long ago we went through all this. Op 22-jun-2009, om 8:41 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Jati paccaya jara-maranam-soka-parideva dukkha-domanassa-upayasa > sambhavanti> > > And here jati means birth, but it's not nama, it cannot be directly > known. Marana also is death, that cannot be known. ---------- N: In the ultimate sense we can say that the rebirth-consciousness is birth and that the death-consciousness is death. Birth and death can be directly known. The truth of birth and death can be penetrated. We can also say: arising and falling away of citta at each moment can be directly known. Or arising and falling away of ruupa can be directly known. --------- > > L: But Path of Discrimination states: > > mara.na.m abhi~n~neyya.m; soko abhi~n~neyyo; paridevo abhi~n~neyyo; > upaayaaso abhi~n~neyyo. > 9. Birth is to be directly known. > 10. Ageing is to be directly known. > 11. Sickness [11] is to be directly known. > 12. Death is to be directly known. > 13. Sorrow is to be directly known. > 14. Lamentation is to be directly known. > 15. Despair is to be directly known.> > > Regarding death, there was said in visudhimagga, Reflection on death > (marana) that is not a conventional word but the decay of life > faculty that is nama. How should we understand marana in Dependent > Origination? ------- N: Here is a quote from Vis. Ch XVII: Text Vis. 272: And when there is no birth, neither ageing and death nor states beginning with sorrow come about; but when there is birth, then ageing and death come about, and also the states beginning with sorrow, which are either bound up with ageing and death in a fool who is affected by the painful states called ageing and death, or which are not so bound up in one who is affected by some painful state or other; ------- N: The Tiika explains that there are other sorrows different from old age and death, namely, the loss of relatives that cause sorrow. Sorrow is bound up with old age and death, but there are also other kinds of sorrow the Tiika repeats. -------- Text Vis. : therefore this birth is a condition for ageing and death and also for sorrow and so on. But it is a condition in one way, as decisive-support type. This is the detailed explanation of the clause 'With becoming as condition, birth'. ---------- N: As we read: < And when there is no birth, neither ageing and death nor states beginning with sorrow come about; but when there is birth, then ageing and death come about..> The Tiika explains that birth as a single cause by way of decisive- support is not found in the Patthaana, but only in the Suttanta method of Exposition. The Tiika explains that decisive support is a condition covering truly a wide field. In the following sections the Tiika explains that birth is not entirely the conditon for sorrow and so on, but that also ignorance is a condition. -------- Conclusion: We read about the fool, baalajana, who is affected by the painful states called ageing and death. An ordinary person who is not an ariyan is called a fool. A person who has become an ariyan knows that he is on the way to freedom from all dukkha that is inherent in the cycle of birth and death. ------------- N: You ask: How should we understand marana in Dependent Origination? It is because of ignorance that we are in the cycle and subject to birth, old age and death. When ignorance is eradicated there is the end to birth, old age and death. That is the message. Thus, an exhortation to continue to develop right understanding of naama and ruupa. As we read, < the Tiika explains that birth is not entirely the conditon for sorrow and so on, but that also ignorance is a condition. > We are reminded of the danger of ignorance. --------- You also asked: Why Sariputta said kessa abhi~n~neyya, loma abhi~n~neyya... next to dhatus? Does parts of the body can be directly known? I always consider parts of body as object to samatha mainly. -------- N: It is an object of samatha but the parts of the body can remind us that the body consists of elements devoid of self. Parts of the body can be a reminder of the truth. We also read that the earth kasina is to be directly known. It is an object of samatha but it can also remind us that sense objects are just earth, they consist of the element of earth. Not worth clinging to. We have to think of the purpose of abhi~n~naa: detachment. Nina. #98622 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:12 am Subject: To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) sprlrt Hi Connie (Sarah) > ------------- > c: LOL... hadn't thought of that! No, it took me awhile to find it & by then it was "drafts or dodgers" because I had to leave. I was hoping someone else (Lukas? Alberto?) might pick out the relevant section and offer a translation (#98537). All I really get out of it is 'o, those are the neat verses about the two truths at the end'. A long passage but ok,... I've saved it and I'll see what I can do (no deadline, right? :-), for now I'd summed it up as: if it doesn't arise and fall away immediately one can safely assume it's paatti, not the real thing. Alberto #98623 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:42 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 10. nilovg Dear friends, There can also be awareness of the different kinds of feelings which arise. Our feelings change all the time. There are feelings arising on account of what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, of what is experienced through the body-sense and of what is thought. At each moment of citta the condition for the accompanying feeling changes and thus feelings change all the time. It does not appear to us this way when we cling to the feeling which has fallen away already. It exists no more but we keep on pondering over it. If we cling to feelings of the past, we live more in the world of illusions than in the world of realities, of paramattha dhammas. In the Visuddhimagga (XX, 96) nma and rpa which arise and fall away are compared to the sound of a lute which arises because of conditions and falls away again. The text states: ...But just as there is no store, prior to its arising, of the sound that arises when a lute is played, nor does it come from any store when it arises, nor does it go in any direction when it ceases, nor does it persist as a store when it has ceased, but on the contrary, not having been, it is brought into being owing to the lute, the lutes neck, and the mans appropriate effort, and having been, it vanishesso too all material and immaterial states, not having been, are brought into being, having been they vanish. It is beneficial to be reminded that the nmas and rpas which appear in our daily life arise because of conditions and then fall away. If we consider this thoroughly there will be less inclination to keep on thinking about what is past already. In this way there will be less forgetfulness of what appears now. You dont have to do anything special to be aware, there are objects impinging on the six doors time and again. ******* Nina. #98624 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:25 am Subject: Re: Revisit Visuddhimagga Ch XVII. paticcasamupada szmicio Dear Nina Thank you for your explanations. Regarding sorrow, lamentation and grief I think about saccavibhanga, vibhangapali. > N: As we read: < And when there is no birth, neither ageing and death > nor states beginning with sorrow come about; but when there is birth, > then ageing > and death come about..> > The Tiika explains that birth as a single cause by way of decisive- > support is not found in the Patthaana, but only in the Suttanta > method of Exposition. The Tiika explains that decisive support is a > condition covering truly a wide field. L: Good to hear that. > In the following sections the Tiika explains that birth is not > entirely the conditon for sorrow and so on, but that also ignorance > is a condition. > -------- L: Now I think about hearing and studing Dhamma. That reminders are so subtle that I think we should not try to grasp or try to remember what we read. Or think about it more. This is such deep to hear: "that birth is not entirely the conditon for sorrow and so on, but that also ignorance is a condition." Good that Thera comment this. It can infulance us, so that right understanding can develop more and more. > Conclusion: > We read about the fool, baalajana, who is affected by the painful > states called ageing and death. An ordinary person who is not an > ariyan is called a fool. A person who has become an ariyan knows that > he is on the way to freedom from all dukkha that is inherent in the > cycle of birth and death. > ------------- > N: You ask: How should we understand marana in Dependent Origination? > It is because of ignorance that we are in the cycle and subject to > birth, old age and death. When ignorance is eradicated there is the > end to birth, old age and death. That is the message. Thus, an > exhortation to continue to develop right understanding of naama and > ruupa. As we read, < the Tiika explains that birth is not entirely > the conditon for sorrow and so on, but that also ignorance is a > condition. > We are reminded of the danger of ignorance. > --------- L: Paticcasamupada always reminds me of non self. just about moha that condition jati-marana-dukkha. Here now we see a person a self which is doing this and that, but in reality there is only moha. When I was coming through paticcasamupada , vibhangapali I found that always when there is kusala the moha is still there. It still condition jatimaranadukkha. My best wishes Lukas #98625 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) sarahprocter... Hi Suan & all, --- On Mon, 15/6/09, abhidhammika wrote: > As far as Soma Thera is concerned, Satipa.t.thaana Sutta is an instruction manual of meditation practice. Please read his introduction to his commendable work. ... Sarah: If there was ever an article full of personal opinion and mumbo-jumbo (imho), it is Soma Thera's introduction to this commendable work. For example: "Searching analysis is predominantly intellective and is the work of insight. Wholehearted acceptance is principally intuitive and springs from the placidity of concentration. In the sense of yoking [yuganandhatthena] and of not letting (either) become overwhelming [anativattanatthena] contemplative balance is reached. That balance is manifested as the sober, serene, steadfast acceptance of the truth which analysis reveals. "This is a middle way. It does not overlook any valuable knowledge or experience of the spirit and does not edge sideways but goes straight forward, intent on the Real, free from all biases. Though it looks within, it is aware of what is without. Along such a way one can transcend the narrow vision of a barricaded individuality and the indefinable looseness of view of a dissipated and disintegrated spirit." Sarah: And it gets worse. Before you suggest that I can't appreciate it because I'm not a Pali scholar or a meditator, let me mention that I had a chat once with B.Bodhi with regard to omitting it from the otherwise excellent text. B.Bodhi was also less than enthusiastic about Soma's intro, but explained that decades ago, a donor had printed a really huge volume of copies and that they still had warehouses full of it. Indeed, I remember even in the early 70s, everyone seemed to have a copy. So, yes, I think you can assume that anyone who has been 'around' for sometime, is very familiar with this great sutta and its commentaries and has learnt to ignore the intro. ... >Suan:Here is the importance of choice and purpose from Soma Thera's translation on "Clear Comprehension (Sampajaa)". >"There are these four kinds of comprehension: clear comprehension of purpose [satthaka sampajaa], of suitability [sappaya sampajaa], of resort [gocara sampajaa], and of non-delusion [asammoha sampajaa]." >The above commentary passage unambiguously exposes Sarah, Jon and KS Folks' wrong view and wrong speech about purpose and purposeful actions to which they object. ... Sarah: Sorry, but where's the "choice" and how does an understanding of satthaka sampaja~n~na "unembiguously expose" our wrong view and speech? Is there any suggestion of any Self choosing or purposely performing any actions in it? From the Tiika: "The discerning of things rightly, entirely and equally is clear comprehension. Nothing else." I've also seen satthaka translated as 'benefit'. When there is right understanding of a reality, the benefit is apparent, no doubt or "Searching analysis is predominantly intellective and is the work of insight". I'll look forward to reading any of your further messages or discussions whilst I'm away, Suan. Apologies in advance to everyone for very belated replies after Wed. Metta, Sarah ======= #98626 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 6/21/2009 11:17:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: Thanks Howard. Speaking of misperception... can you tell me the difference between percept and apperception? ---------------------------------------------- Not very well! LOL! I never use the 2nd word. Merriam-Webster gives the following for it: 1. 1 introspective self-consciousness 2. 2 mental perception especially the process of understanding something perceived in terms of previous experience As for 'percept', while I used to use such a noun a lot, I tend not to now, thinking more in terms of process than entities. I understand the term to refer to an early stage of mentally grasping what has appeared through eye, ear, nose, tongue, or body, and it is close, I might guess, to what you mention next - a nimitta. ------------------------------------------------ Or any thoughts on nimitta? Happy Father's Day! ---------------------------------------------- Thanks! Ours was very pleasant except for uncomfortably too much to eat and drink. (The "drink" was two non-alcoholic beers. :-) I hope you and all others here had a really good day as well! ---------------------------------------- connie re:#98611 ======================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98627 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Revisit Visuddhimagga Ch XVII. paticcasamupada nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 22-jun-2009, om 12:25 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > When I was coming through paticcasamupada , vibhangapali I found > that always when there is kusala the moha is still there. It still > condition jatimaranadukkha. ------- N: Yes, it is there as a latent tendency. So long as ignorance is not eradicated we are subject to jatimaranadukkha. ------- More quotes from Vis. Ch XVII: Text Vis. 62: Herein, it might be [asked]: How can it be known that these formations have ignorance as their condition? By the fact that they exist when ignorance exists. ------- N: So long as ignorance has not been eradicated, kusala kamma, akusala kamma and imperturbable kamma are committed through body, speech and mind. -------- Text Vis.: For when unknowing--in other words, ignorance--of suffering, etc., is unabandoned in a man, owing firstly to his unknowing about suffering and about the past, etc., then he believes the suffering of the round of rebirths to be pleasant ---------- All kinds of practice that do not lead out of the cycle of birth and death are wrong practice: micchaa pa.tipadaa. Kusala kamma without any understanding of realities does not lead to the end of defilements and is thus wrong practice. As the Tiika states about pua: Because of his desire for happiness he performs kusala, and thus fulfills this desire; he performs what is honourable and that is merit. And as it also states: Pua, merit, in the sense of preparing or forming up fruit for oneself, is abhisankhaara, and this is puaabhisankhaara. One may perform kaamaavacara kusala, ruupaavacaara kusala or aruupaavacaara kusala with the desire to have rebirth in happy planes. Then one is still attached to the cycle. -------- As we read in the Vis. text: We should apply this to the present moment, to daily life. On account of what is seen, heard or experienced through the other senses, kusala citta or akusala citta arises and these can motivate kamma through body, speech or mind. Kamma, sankhaara, is conditioned by avijjaa, ignorance. Because of our wrong perception of what happines is, we take the cycle of birth and death for happiness, we cling to life. As we read, eyesense, the other senses and the objects experienced through these are the basis of clinging. The Dependent Origination deals with our daily life. We can notice that we cling to seeing, hearing, the experience of sense objects. We lost our way for such a long time because of ignorance, also in past lives. Therefore it is difficult to understand that the cycle of birth and death is dukkha. This text reminds us that we are misleading ourselves all the time. taking for happiness what is dukkha. Only paaa that sees realities as they are can put an end to our wrong interpretation of the cycle of birth and death. ******** The Tiika states that the formation of merit is similar to falling down steeply (maruppapaata) because it produces birth, etc. which is the dukkha of falling down steeply. Kusala kamma produces a happy rebirth, but this is followed by old age, sickness and death. --------- Text Vis.: Also, not seeing how that fruit of merit reckoned as pleasure eventually breeds great distress owing to the suffering in its change ---------- N: As to the expression great distress, mahaapari.laaha, this is compared to a fire, a burning grass torch. ------- Text Vis.: and that it gives little satisfaction, ------ N: As to little satisfaction (appassaada), here, the fruit of merit is compared to an executioners block where the big and small limbs of a being are broken up. -------- Text Vis.: he embarks upon the formation of merit of the kinds already stated, which is the condition for that very [suffering in change], like a moth that falls into a lamp's flame, and like the man who wants the drop of honey and licks the honey-smeared knife-edge. -------- N: The fruit of merit is taken for agreeable and pleasant, but in order to show its danger it is compared to the falling into a lamps flame and the licking of honey from the knifes edge. ---------- Ignorance is not knowing paramattha dhammas, being deluded about them. When one perceives people and things and believes them to be lasting, one does not see them as elements that are devoid of self. At the moment of ignorance we do not know that there is ignorance, it is treacherous, dark, covering up the truth. It yokes us to the cycle of birth and death. It is a latent tendency so powerful, only to be eradicated at the attainment of arahatship. When we reflect on ignorance, the greatest danger, we are reminded not to neglect the development of right understanding of any dhamma appearing now. ---------- N: I think you will like the following text. A sutta passage is quoted and it is asked why: < For therein it is said: Three, bhikkhus are the formations. Which three? The bodily formation, the verbal formation and the mental formation. 648. But why are these taken in accordance with these suttas? This Abhidhamma is not newly made; nor is it spoken by sages outside [the dispensation], nor by disciples, nor by deities. But this is spoken by the Omniscient Conquerer. It is in order to illustrate this meaning that a single textual passage is set forth in like manner in the Abhidhamma and in the suttas....> Some people think that the Abhidhamma is more modern, they have theories about its history. This Abhidhamma is not newly made. ****** Nina. #98628 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Mike), --- On Tue, 16/6/09, kenhowardau wrote: S: > The right view (and insight) that is not lokuttara can have results anytime - in this life or future lives. --------- K:>That makes sense, but now I have another question: Why do you say right view *and* insight? Aren't they the same? .... S: Well, strictly speaking, the insight refers to vipassana ~naanas, whereas the mundane right view (above) refers to the right view of satipa.t.thaana which leads to the vipassana ~naanas. Of course, insight can be used generally to include the path leading to insight.... ------------ --- S: > I'm also thinking of the special rebirths of the anagaami, for example... ------------ K:> I vaguely remember them. Are they additional results (in addition to the phala cittas) of supramundane magga cittas? .... S: No, the magga cittas bring their immediate result by way of the phala cittas only. However, because all sense desire and aversion has been eradicated at this stage, so there is no more tie to sensous realms. I believe the anagamis (at death)are always reborn into arupa-brahama realms, such as the Pure Abodes (which only anagamis can be reborn into). These rebirths would be the result of arupa jhana cittas. I think, my passing reference to anagamis and their rebirths was therefore a red herring! ------------ --------- >S: > Enjoyed your discussion, thanks. ------------ --------- K:> Thanks, I intend hounding Mike until he finally concedes that the Buddhataught satipatthana (right understanding of conditioned dhammas) full stop! That means, no conventional teachings. :-) ... S: I'll look forward to the further 'hounding' and Mike's strong defence:). Metta, Sarah ======== #98629 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? scottduncan2 Dear Howard and connie (and Ken H), Regarding: H: "If we look at a coat, we may see the coat as a whole, or we may see patterns within it, or we may see individual threads, and this is a gradation of increasing detail...I see the advantage as starting to know things as they are. I think it a (bare) beginning of wisdom/insight and disenchantment. We do of course, as Ken says, see sights, hear sounds, etc all the time. But without a refinement of observation, no matter how often we hear of how things are, we misperceive." Scott: I think that 'coat', 'patterns', and 'individual threads' are all the same. They are pa~n~natti. None of these are what is seen by seeing consciousness. All of these are thought about. Taking 'coat' or 'pattern' or 'individual threads' for realities, as in the above, is not at all what is meant by satipa.t.thaana, and is, most certainly, misperception. Thinking of these concepts, which is surely what they are, imagining that one 'sees' them, imagining that this thought about gradation of 'increasing detail' is advantageous, has nothing to do, as I understand it, with the 'beginning of wisdom/insight and disenchantment'. I don't think that Ken H. would agree with the implicit suggestion that refining one's observation of 'coat' into 'pattern' or 'individual threads' - only thinking about concepts - would have the same status as satipa.t.thaana. Sincerely, Scott. #98630 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? nilovg Hi Howard and Connie, Op 22-jun-2009, om 13:21 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Happy Father's Day! > ---------------------------------------------- > Thanks! Ours was very pleasant except for uncomfortably too much to > eat and drink. (The "drink" was two non-alcoholic beers. :-) -------- I like this short summary. Was it with your family in your home? Very good about the drinks, I tell Lodewijk, he appreciates this, though he drinks wine. Speaking about the five precepts, you are an expert finding other solutions when there are plagues, like crickets in your cellar. I was thinking about this when Connie spoke about her problems, having to use a vacuum cleaner. It is a difficult situation when doing work for someone else in a building not one's own. We are not sotaapannas yet. Still, it is good if we can find another solution. Maybe you can help? Nina. #98631 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Suan) - In a message dated 6/22/2009 7:21:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Suan & all, --- On Mon, 15/6/09, abhidhammika wrote: > As far as Soma Thera is concerned, Satipa.t.thaana Sutta is an instruction manual of meditation practice. Please read his introduction to his commendable work. ... Sarah: If there was ever an article full of personal opinion and mumbo-jumbo (imho), it is Soma Thera's introduction to this commendable work. ----------------------------------------------- Sarah, while I might try to look for another (softer) word to replace 'mumbo-jumbo', I have to admit that were I reading this material in the introduction I would be readily dissuaded from reading further. I can't make anything of it. I find it incoherent at best. ----------------------------------------------- For example: "Searching analysis is predominantly intellective and is the work of insight. Wholehearted acceptance is principally intuitive and springs from the placidity of concentration. In the sense of yoking [yuganandhatthena] and of not letting (either) become overwhelming [anativattanatthena] contemplative balance is reached. That balance is manifested as the sober, serene, steadfast acceptance of the truth which analysis reveals. "This is a middle way. It does not overlook any valuable knowledge or experience of the spirit and does not edge sideways but goes straight forward, intent on the Real, free from all biases. Though it looks within, it is aware of what is without. Along such a way one can transcend the narrow vision of a barricaded individuality and the indefinable looseness of view of a dissipated and disintegrated spirit." Sarah: And it gets worse. Before you suggest that I can't appreciate it because I'm not a Pali scholar or a meditator, let me mention that I had a chat once with B.Bodhi with regard to omitting it from the otherwise excellent text. B.Bodhi was also less than enthusiastic about Soma's intro, but explained that decades ago, a donor had printed a really huge volume of copies and that they still had warehouses full of it. Indeed, I remember even in the early 70s, everyone seemed to have a copy. So, yes, I think you can assume that anyone who has been 'around' for sometime, is very familiar with this great sutta and its commentaries and has learnt to ignore the intro. ... >Suan:Here is the importance of choice and purpose from Soma Thera's translation on "Clear Comprehension (Sampajaa)". >"There are these four kinds of comprehension: clear comprehension of purpose [satthaka sampajaa], of suitability [sappaya sampajaa], of resort [gocara sampajaa], and of non-delusion [asammoha sampajaa]." >The above commentary passage unambiguously exposes Sarah, Jon and KS Folks' wrong view and wrong speech about purpose and purposeful actions to which they object. ... Sarah: Sorry, but where's the "choice" and how does an understanding of satthaka sampaja~n~na "unembiguously expose" our wrong view and speech? Is there any suggestion of any Self choosing or purposely performing any actions in it? From the Tiika: "The discerning of things rightly, entirely and equally is clear comprehension. Nothing else." I've also seen satthaka translated as 'benefit'. When there is right understanding of a reality, the benefit is apparent, no doubt or "Searching analysis is predominantly intellective and is the work of insight". ----------------------------------------- As you know, I consider choice, intention, willing, and desire as crucial to what happens to "us" and in "us" for good or ill, and I believe there are hosts of examples in the suttas supporting this perspective, but I do agree that this quoted material of Soma Thera's seems to have no bearing on that. ---------------------------------------- I'll look forward to reading any of your further messages or discussions whilst I'm away, Suan. Apologies in advance to everyone for very belated replies after Wed. Metta, Sarah ============================ With metta, Howard P. S. I do consider the Satipatthana Sutta as an "instruction manual." (No surprise here. Just keeping the record clear. ;-) Kamma /"A fool is characterized by his/her actions. A wise person is characterized by his/her actions. It's through the activities of one's life that one's discernment shines. "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a fool. Which three? Bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct... "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a wise person. Which three? Good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct... "Thus, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will avoid the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a fool. We will undertake & maintain the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a wise person.' That's how you should train yourselves."/ (From Anguttara Nikaya 3.2) #98632 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) nilovg Dear Sarah and Ken H, Op 22-jun-2009, om 13:44 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I believe the anagamis (at death)are always reborn into arupa- > brahama realms, such as the Pure Abodes (which only anagamis can be > reborn into). These rebirths would be the result of arupa jhana > cittas. ------ N: I remember we asked Kh Sujin several times about this point. If I remembewr correctly, the anaagaami does not have to cultivate jhaana, but since they do not cling to any sense objects, they are naturally reborn in the plane of Pure Abodes. Buddhist Dict.: they are a group of five Heavens belonging to the ruupaloka. ------ Nina. #98633 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 6/22/2009 7:46:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard and connie (and Ken H), Regarding: H: "If we look at a coat, we may see the coat as a whole, or we may see patterns within it, or we may see individual threads, and this is a gradation of increasing detail...I see the advantage as starting to know things as they are. I think it a (bare) beginning of wisdom/insight and disenchantment. We do of course, as Ken says, see sights, hear sounds, etc all the time. But without a refinement of observation, no matter how often we hear of how things are, we misperceive." Scott: I think that 'coat', 'patterns', and 'individual threads' are all the same. They are pa~n~natti. None of these are what is seen by seeing consciousness. All of these are thought about. Taking 'coat' or 'pattern' or 'individual threads' for realities, as in the above, is not at all what is meant by satipa.t.thaana, and is, most certainly, misperception. --------------------------------------------- Scott, Scott, Scott! I was speaking analogically, using conventional example to point to the matter of seeing greater detail. In any case, getting to be aware of basic sense-door phenomena, aka 'paramattha dhammas', is a matter of zeroing in on the component parts of conglomerates that are mistakenly viewed as individual phenomena. -------------------------------------------- Thinking of these concepts, which is surely what they are, imagining that one 'sees' them, imagining that this thought about gradation of 'increasing detail' is advantageous, has nothing to do, as I understand it, with the 'beginning of wisdom/insight and disenchantment'. ------------------------------------------- I was not speaking of thinking about anything, but of seeing *through* concept. In any case, Scott, it seems you are still looking to argue, and I have less than no interest in that. I find it extremely distasteful. ----------------------------------------- I don't think that Ken H. would agree with the implicit suggestion that refining one's observation of 'coat' into 'pattern' or 'individual threads' - only thinking about concepts - would have the same status as satipa.t.thaana. --------------------------------------- Oh, boy! --------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98634 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "...I was speaking analogically, using conventional example to point to the matter of seeing greater detail. In any case, getting to be aware of basic sense-door phenomena, aka 'paramattha dhammas', is a matter of zeroing in on the component parts of conglomerates that are mistakenly viewed as individual phenomena..." Scott: Of course, we disagree. The analogy is tenuous at best. 'Coat' or 'threads' or 'patterns' are not analogues of visible object, which is only colour; they are complex concepts, and, as such, are only mental proliferations. I think the point is seeing in less detail, if one gets right down to it. 'Coat' is not more, but less - only visible object. The coat-making comes later and is the result of worldly misunderstanding of visible object. This comparing of apples and oranges cannot go anywhere, in my opinion. Visible object never was 'coat' in the first place. Thinking that one is seeing 'pattern' or 'thread' instead of 'coat' and thinking that 'seeing' these 'component parts' is somehow helpful entirely misses the point of satipa.t.thaana. The impersonal process of satipa.t.thaana has only paramattha dhammaa as object. Thinking of concepts which are ever more refined is still just thinking of concepts, and misunderstands the difference between concept and realities . Sincerely, Scott. #98635 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lodewijk) - In a message dated 6/22/2009 7:53:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Connie, Op 22-jun-2009, om 13:21 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Happy Father's Day! > ---------------------------------------------- > Thanks! Ours was very pleasant except for uncomfortably too much to > eat and drink. (The "drink" was two non-alcoholic beers. :-) -------- I like this short summary. Was it with your family in your home? --------------------------------------------- We went with our younger son & his wife (who live near us) and her parents for a lovely dinner at a restaurant called Milleridge Inn and then back to our daughter-in-law's parents' home to receive Fathers Day gifts from our children. (Of course we also had phone conversations with out older son and his wife & daughters inTexas.) BTW, I have noted that Fathers Day is celebrated (on widely varying dates) in many countries. The Netherlands is listed among those , the majority, celebrating it yesterday. Is it a big day in the Netherlands, Nina? ----------------------------------------------- Very good about the drinks, I tell Lodewijk, he appreciates this, though he drinks wine. Speaking about the five precepts, you are an expert finding other solutions when there are plagues, like crickets in your cellar. I was thinking about this when Connie spoke about her problems, having to use a vacuum cleaner. It is a difficult situation when doing work for someone else in a building not one's own. We are not sotaapannas yet. Still, it is good if we can find another solution. Maybe you can help? ---------------------------------------------- I'm not clear on what specifically you are pointing to with regard to my possibly being of help. With regard to the crickets, BTW, for well over a year I captured and removed many hundreds of the crickets, alive and well, from our house, maybe 10 or so per week every week. I even came to think somewhat fondly of the (really ugly ;-) creatures sometimes called "spider crickets" that horrified my wife. Unfortunately, I'm very sorry to say that we eventually became *overrun* by them, with 10 or more every day in the basement, the same number in the garage, and some in our living quarters, and, with great regret, I ended up choosing to have poison put down at the perimeter of the basement and garage. This grieved me greatly (and embarrassed me as well - a matter of ego!), but that was the choice I felt compelled to make, and what comes to me as kammic fruit is just something I have to accept. In general, my perspective is to seriously do the best we can but not expect perfection. My experience is that with most things we fall way short of perfection, and if only perfection is considered "good enough," then we are likely to give up entirely. So, I tend to opting for serious effort with relaxed expectations. ;-) Clinging to the idea of perfection as a requirement is painful and counterproductive, IMO. (Expecting and requiring nothing of ourselves is, of course, at least as bad.) ----------------------------------------------- Nina. =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98636 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? nilovg Hi Howard, Op 22-jun-2009, om 14:47 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > In general, my perspective is to seriously do the best we can but not > expect perfection. My experience is that with most things we fall > way short > of perfection ------ N: Yes, that is why Kh Sujin always says that only the sotaapanna can keep the five precepts perfectly. We cannot say that we shall never transgress. We do not know what circumstances we will meet. But on this list we had several discussions about practical solutions in case of insect problems and that could help sometimes. I remember someone complaining about coakcroaches, but he did not keep the place clean. That is one solution. Nina. #98637 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? scottduncan2 Dear Howard Regarding: H: "...I was not speaking of thinking about anything, but of seeing *through* concept..." Scott: Yes and I disagree with the view. When 'seeing through concept' is described as going from 'coat' to 'patterns' and then to 'threads' I see this a going from one concept to another. If this was meant to show an example of penetrative wisdom (i.e. the function of satipa.t.thaana), it does not. H: "In any case, Scott, it seems you are still looking to argue, and I have less than no interest in that. I find it extremely distasteful..." Scott: Howard, you need not discuss with me. I hardly think a clearly worded disagreement, backed up with reasonable arguments which one is welcome to speak to, constitutes 'looking to argue.' Should you wish to make statements and have them treated as stand-alone pronouncements, you might make this known. Should you wish to speak to the heart of this discussion please feel free. Since I don't wish to 'argue', please consider this a 'stand-alone pronouncement' if you don't want to continue. Sincerely, Scott. #98638 From: "m. nease" Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Revisit Visuddhimagga Ch XVII. paticcasamupada m_nease Hi Nina (and Lukas), First, I thought this was very succinct: Nina van Gorkom wrote: > All kinds of practice that do not lead out of the cycle of birth and > death are wrong practice: micchaa pa.tipadaa. And it reminded me of a quote from another list this morning: These verses were spoken by Mara "...those engaged in austerity and scrupulousness, those protecting their solitude, and those settled on form, delighting in the world of devas: Indeed these mortals instruct rightly in regard to the other world." Bodhi page 162 Sagathavagga Devaputtasamyutta 370 > Kusala kamma without > any understanding of realities does not lead to the end of > defilements and is thus wrong practice. All crucial, I think, the rest of the post too. mike #98639 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 6/22/2009 11:49:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard Regarding: H: "...I was not speaking of thinking about anything, but of seeing *through* concept..." Scott: Yes and I disagree with the view. When 'seeing through concept' is described as going from 'coat' to 'patterns' and then to 'threads' I see this a going from one concept to another. If this was meant to show an example of penetrative wisdom (i.e. the function of satipa.t.thaana), it does not. --------------------------------------------- Scott, this was analogy. By "the thread," I meant paramattha dhammas, and, more importantly, I was NOT talking about thinking but of getting beyond thinking to direct knowing. I, BTW, consider even the so called paramattha dhammas as conventional but a closer conceptual approximation to reality than more macroscopic "entities." In any case, you are of course free to hold whatever views you wish and disagree with whatever views you wish. But please know that I have no interest in debating you. ------------------------------------------ H: "In any case, Scott, it seems you are still looking to argue, and I have less than no interest in that. I find it extremely distasteful..." Scott: Howard, you need not discuss with me. I hardly think a clearly worded disagreement, backed up with reasonable arguments which one is welcome to speak to, constitutes 'looking to argue.' Should you wish to make statements and have them treated as stand-alone pronouncements, you might make this known. ------------------------------------------ It's different from that, Scott, so long as we are being frank: Recently you wrote to me "Thinking of these concepts, which is surely what they are, imagining that one 'sees' them, imagining that this thought about gradation of 'increasing detail' is advantageous, has nothing to do, as I understand it, with the 'beginning of wisdom/insight and disenchantment'." I found that statement presumptuous and arrogant, and I found your "imagining that one 'sees' them" to be insulting and possibly intentionally so. So, it is not a matter of my wanting to make stand-alone pronouncements but a matter of my finding your approach to me antagonistic, argumentative - hostile in fact, and rigid, and so I don't benefit from our conversations, and I doubt that you do either. It happens I do not feel at all the same way with regard to discussing matters with my friends Nina, Sarah, Jon, and Ken H and others. It is not a matter of our having differing points of view. We all have points of view. It's a matter of my unwillingness to have conversations with people who approach me with hostility instead of friendship. ------------------------------------------ Should you wish to speak to the heart of this discussion please feel free. Since I don't wish to 'argue', please consider this a 'stand-alone pronouncement' if you don't want to continue. --------------------------------------------- I do not wish to continue. -------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott ============================ With metta nonetheless, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #98640 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "...I do not wish to continue." Scott: Okay, Howard. Sincerely, Scott. #98641 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:44 pm Subject: Animal Rebirth! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: If Blinded by Ignorance one takes Animal Rebirth! Because of greed one is reborn in eggs of geese, doves or as other animals obsessed by great passion, like also in the womb of a rhinoceros... Because of ignorance one is reborn in the eggs of insects and worms. Because of hate one is reborn as snake. Because of pride and obduracy, one is reborn as lion. Because of arrogance & narcissism one is reborn in the wombs of donkeys and dogs. If miserly & discontented one creates rebirth as a monkey. If foulmouthed, faithless & shameless one is reborn as crow. Those flogging, chaining & injuring elephants, horses, & buffalos become spiders, scorpions, & stinging insects of cruel character. Those who are flesh-eating, angry, & fiery are reborn after death as tigers, jackals, cats, sharks, vultures, wolves & the like. Those who are generous givers, but angry & cruel become Nāgas = snake-demons of great iddhi -power... Any deliberate wrongdoing in thought, speech and/or action can produce rebirth as animal! Therefore one should always shun all that is wrongdoing... Animal rebirth induced by cruelty! <...> The Animal Realm! Source (edited extract): Pañcagatidīpanī by Ashvaghosa & Saddhammaghosa: 11-12th century AC. Tr. by Ann A. Hazlewood. Journal of the Pāli Text Society. Vol. XI 1987: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132714 Have a nice human day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Animal Rebirth! #98642 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? nilovg Dear Scott and Howard, Op 22-jun-2009, om 22:10 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > H: "...I do not wish to continue." > > Scott: Okay, Howard. -------- N: What a pity. It may be easier if you do not think of persons. Just dhammas. Nina. #98643 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:31 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. nilovg Dear friends, When you touch water which is too hot heat presents itself. You may think, This water is too hot, and then there is thinking. Hot water is a concept we think of, but heat is a reality, a rpa, which impinges on the bodysense, it can be directly experienced. The rpa which is heat, the nma which experiences heat or the painful feeling can appear again and again, in between the thinking. These are all different phenomena which do not stay, which are not self. There is no person who has painful feeling, there is a nma which feels. Painful feeling arises because of its own conditions. When there are not the right conditions for it it cannot arise. When we hear harsh words there are conditions for unpleasant feeling, but there can also be moments of awareness in between. Besides unpleasant feeling there are sound, hearing and other realities appearing. In this way we can realize that unpleasant feeling is only one phenomenon among many other realities which each arise because of their own conditions. Whereas if we are not mindful we think that there is only my unpleasant feeling which seems to last. We may believe that this particular person, this place and this situation are the causes of our unhappiness. However, these are not the real causes. The real cause is our accumulated dosa. When we are aware of nma and rpa there is less enslavement to the objects we experience. When there is awareness of visible object which appears through the eyes there is no enslavement to visible object. When there is awareness of sound which appears through the ears there is no enslavement to sound, and it is the same with regard to the objects which present themselves through the other doorways. ****** Nina. #98644 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? scottduncan2 Dear Nina (and Howard), Regarding: H: "...I do not wish to continue." Scott: "Okay, Howard." ------ N: "What a pity. It may be easier if you do not think of persons. Just dhammas." Scott: I think of the view. And I think of a 'Howard' as well. I try to address the view. In this case the views seem very divergent. There is also sa~n~naa associated with a person - 'Howard' has stated thus and so in the past - and then this is dragged into thinking about what 'Howard' is saying now. As far as the view goes, I don't find it useful to think of 'coat' then 'pattern' then 'thread'. As you mention elsewhere: N: "When you touch water which is too hot heat presents itself. You may think, 'This water is too hot', and then there is thinking. Hot water is a concept we think of, but heat is a reality, a ruupa, which impinges on the bodysense, it can be directly experienced." Scott: To paraphrase: When you see 'coat' this is only visible object. 'Coat' is thought about and is concept, but visible object is a reality, a ruupa which impinges on the eye-sense, it can be directly experienced. Howard suggests: "If we look at a coat, we may see the coat as a whole, or we may see patterns within it, or we may see individual threads, and this is a gradation of increasing detail...I see the advantage as starting to know things as they are. I think it a (bare) beginning of wisdom/insight and disenchantment. We do of course, as Ken says, see sights, hear sounds, etc all the time. But without a refinement of observation, no matter how often we hear of how things are, we misperceive." Scott: 'Coat' is thought about. 'Patterns' are thought about. 'Individual threads' are thought about. Neither 'coat' nor 'patterns' nor 'individual threads' are visible object. 'A refinement of observation' is not, as I understand it, the same as satipa.t.thaana because it includes the wrongful notion that 'I' can refine my observation, forcing myself to look from coat to patterns or to individual threads and, in so doing, 'I' can practise and make things happen. I don't see this as any different than the whole wrongful notion that walking slower somehow equates with or is condition for satipa.t.thaana. Seeing 'coat' and considering that it is not 'coat' or 'pattern' or 'individual threads' but rather only visible object seems more in line with Dhamma. These have all been discussed before, many times. As far as 'the person' goes, Howard considers my disagreement to be unpleasant and so I am inclined to stop the discussion. I do so more out of annoyance and impatience than kindness, of course - why can't Howard just relax and discuss? Can't anyone disagree with him? - but what can I do? Thinking about persons... Sincerely, Scott. #98645 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? scottduncan2 Dear Nina (and Howard), I was just listening to 2001-10-23-cmp3, from dsg.org: Kh. Sujin: "...usually we pay attention to the thing we think about when there is seeing but when awareness is aware - no attention to such thought about what it is is but its the moment of 'oh, its only a reality' - which is seeing. That's all. Now, its a reality which can be seen..." Scott: Awareness is not attention. Seeing is not thinking. Sincerely, Scott. #98646 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/23/2009 4:32:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, When you touch water which is too hot heat presents itself. You may think, “This water is too hot”, and then there is thinking. Hot water is a concept we think of, but heat is a reality, a rúpa, which impinges on the bodysense, it can be directly experienced. The rúpa which is heat, the nåma which experiences heat or the painful feeling can appear again and again, in between the thinking. These are all different phenomena which do not stay, which are not self. There is no person who has painful feeling, there is a nåma which feels. --------------------------------------- All true. --------------------------------------- Painful feeling arises because of its own conditions. When there are not the right conditions for it it cannot arise. ------------------------------------- Prominent among the conditions is kamma. But this is not the whole of the matter. ------------------------------------ When we hear harsh words there are conditions for unpleasant feeling, but there can also be moments of awareness in between. Besides unpleasant feeling there are sound, hearing and other realities appearing. In this way we can realize that unpleasant feeling is only one phenomenon among many other realities which each arise because of their own conditions. Whereas if we are not mindful we think that there is only “my unpleasant feeling” which seems to last. We may believe that this particular person, this place and this situation are the causes of our unhappiness. However, these are not the real causes. The real cause is our accumulated dosa. ---------------------------------------- This sounds like a defense of a view of non-responsibility for one's actions, Nina. When a rogue state with leaders overcome by religious extremism oppresses it's people and even tortures and kills, I find myself quite disinclined to blame the victims - pointing to their "accumulated dosa." To me, this perspective is doctrinaire view gone wild. There IS moral responsibility, and any moral theory that denies it is faulty. ----------------------------------------- When we are aware of nåma and rúpa there is less enslavement to the objects we experience. When there is awareness of visible object which appears through the eyes there is no enslavement to visible object. When there is awareness of sound which appears through the ears there is no enslavement to sound, and it is the same with regard to the objects which present themselves through the other doorways. ****** Nina. ========================== With metta, Howard Kamma /"A fool is characterized by his/her actions. A wise person is characterized by his/her actions. It's through the activities of one's life that one's discernment shines. "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a fool. Which three? Bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct... "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a wise person. Which three? Good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct... "Thus, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will avoid the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a fool. We will undertake & maintain the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a wise person.' That's how you should train yourselves."/ (From Anguttara Nikaya 3.2) #98647 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? nilovg Dear Scott (and Lukas), Op 23-jun-2009, om 14:05 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > "...usually we pay attention to the thing we think about when there > is seeing but when awareness is aware - no attention to such > thought about what it is is but its the moment of 'oh, its only a > reality' - which is seeing. That's all. Now, its a reality which > can be seen..." ------- N: Thanks for this helpful quote. It is just a moment and then gone. We learn (with ups and downs) not to hold on to a moment. Thinking on and on does not help at all, but, it has conditions. If you have more quotes while listening, I like it. Like Lukas: we can never have enough. Visible object is not easy to understand because we think of this or that 'thing'. But also when the reality is thinking, thinking can be the object of right understanding. Thus we learn: thinking is not seeing. So, we should not try to know seeing and ignore thinking. Perhaps Lukas can add? I like his reminders. Nina. #98648 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:37 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (19-21) nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing from #98381 Fours (18) (cy: #98540); CSCD < Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. nilovg Hi Howard, Good point. Brings us to the heart of the matter. Op 23-jun-2009, om 15:13 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N:We may > believe that this particular person, this place and this situation > are the causes of our unhappiness. However, these are not the real > causes. The real cause is our accumulated dosa. > ---------------------------------------- > H: This sounds like a defense of a view of non-responsibility for > one's > actions, Nina. When a rogue state with leaders overcome by religious > extremism oppresses it's people and even tortures and kills, I find > myself quite > disinclined to blame the victims - pointing to their "accumulated > dosa." To > me, this perspective is doctrinaire view gone wild. There IS moral > responsibility, and any moral theory that denies it is faulty. > ----------------------------------------- N: Quite right, there is moral responsibility. If we can help a just cause, for example by our vote, we shall do so. But we also understand that we are not the manager of the world and that will help us to have less dosa. By dosa we cannot help anybody. Actually, my point was this: how are 'my cittas' when someone else is vexing me? Think of the Elephant's Footprint Sutta: when the bhikkhu is abosed he knows: this painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. He knows it is dependent on contact and has right understanding. He understands that there are elements that are impermanent. He remembers the Simile of the Saw. So, we are not pointing to someone else's accumulated dosa. We have to consider the realities that are impinging on the six doors and develop understanding. As a consequence, there will be less dosa. I do not speak of the dosa of others. There will be more loving-kindness. Some people think that this is a self-centered view, but on the contrary, the effect is that one can be more helpful to others. Nina. #98650 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Scott) - In a message dated 6/23/2009 10:46:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Good point. Brings us to the heart of the matter. Op 23-jun-2009, om 15:13 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N:We may > believe that this particular person, this place and this situation > are the causes of our unhappiness. However, these are not the real > causes. The real cause is our accumulated dosa. > ---------------------------------------- > H: This sounds like a defense of a view of non-responsibility for > one's > actions, Nina. When a rogue state with leaders overcome by religious > extremism oppresses it's people and even tortures and kills, I find > myself quite > disinclined to blame the victims - pointing to their "accumulated > dosa." To > me, this perspective is doctrinaire view gone wild. There IS moral > responsibility, and any moral theory that denies it is faulty. > ----------------------------------------- N: Quite right, there is moral responsibility. If we can help a just cause, for example by our vote, we shall do so. But we also understand that we are not the manager of the world and that will help us to have less dosa. By dosa we cannot help anybody. ------------------------------------------ You are largely correct, though, on rare occasions, good can result fr om unwholesome states. For the most part, however, anger only results in harmful action, and the best that we can do is to act well despite our anger. ------------------------------------------ Actually, my point was this: how are 'my cittas' when someone else is vexing me? Think of the Elephant's Footprint Sutta: when the bhikkhu is abosed he knows: this painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. He knows it is dependent on contact and has right understanding. He understands that there are elements that are impermanent. He remembers the Simile of the Saw. -------------------------------------------- I agree with you that we should be carefully and regularly introspective, being especially watchful for harmful states and letting them go. Often we fail in that. I know that I do. But the intention to be aware needs to be maintained, and that happens largely due to recollection. Perfection eludes us at this stage, but we need to try our best. I regret that I expressed any anger to Scott, and I apologize for that. I tried to temper the expression of anger, but I could have done better. That said, the gist of what I said, freed of negative emotion, does express my view. By the way, Nina, you make me think of the Beatitudes: "Blessed are the peacemakers ..." :-) ------------------------------------------ So, we are not pointing to someone else's accumulated dosa. We have to consider the realities that are impinging on the six doors and develop understanding. As a consequence, there will be less dosa. I do not speak of the dosa of others. There will be more loving-kindness. Some people think that this is a self-centered view, but on the contrary, the effect is that one can be more helpful to others. ---------------------------------------------- That is quite true. Also true, however, is that proper action doesn't consist only of passivity. In fact, passivity often is immoral. --------------------------------------------- Nina. ======================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98651 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:09 am Subject: Profound Dhamma szmicio Dear friends That's what I've read today at Atthasalini: #98652 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Profound Dhamma nilovg Dear Lukas, Thank you for this extract which is very inspiring. I m impressed by the simile of the ship on the ocean. And then at the end of the classifications it is said: the distinction between mind and matter. So that we do not forget this. So long as we take them together, seeing and visible object together, we take them for self. Meaningful that this is the first stage of tender insight. Nina. Op 23-jun-2009, om 20:09 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Again the bhikkhus, who study the Abhidhamma, experience infinite > rapturous joy in reflecting. As though grouping the multitude of > stars in the sky (into constellations), the Teacher taught things > mental and material, dividing them into various parts and portions > - things subtle and abstruse such as the unique content of > aggregates, sense-organs, elements, controlling faculties, powers, > factors of wisdom, kamma and its result; and the distinction > between mind and matter. #98653 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Profound Dhamma gazita2002 hallo Lucas and Nina, I agree with Nina, this is very inspiring. When I am lucky enuff to read something like this, I feel quite uplifted. It is a condition for more confidence in the Buddha's amazing teaching, a teaching that shows an escape from this samsara. thank you Lucas. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > Thank you for this extract which is very inspiring. I m impressed by > the simile of the ship on the ocean. And then at the end of the > classifications it is said: the distinction between mind and matter. > So that we do not forget this. So long as we take them together, > seeing and visible object together, we take them for self. Meaningful > that this is the first stage of tender insight. > Nina. > Op 23-jun-2009, om 20:09 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > > > Again the bhikkhus, who study the Abhidhamma, experience infinite > > rapturous joy in reflecting. As though grouping the multitude of > > stars in the sky (into constellations), the Teacher taught things > > mental and material, dividing them into various parts and portions > > - things subtle and abstruse such as the unique content of > > aggregates, sense-organs, elements, controlling faculties, powers, > > factors of wisdom, kamma and its result; and the distinction > > between mind and matter. > #98654 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? gazita2002 Hallo Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Nina (and Howard), > > Regarding: > > H: "...I do not wish to continue." > > Scott: "Okay, Howard." > ------ > N: "What a pity. It may be easier if you do not think of persons. Just dhammas." .............. > These have all been discussed before, many times. As far as 'the person' goes, Howard considers my disagreement to be unpleasant and so I am inclined to stop the discussion. I do so more out of annoyance and impatience than kindness, of course - why can't Howard just relax and discuss? Can't anyone disagree with him? - but what can I do? Thinking about persons... > Scott. > azita; like yr honesty, Scott. No matter how much we think we should be kind, if there arent the conditions for that, then it doesnt happen eh? I thought of my neighbour when I read this. I consider him 'strange' and I dislike the cigarette smoke, and try to avoid him when possible. I have this story going on in my head about this 'person' and sometimes I try to have compassion for him but I think its just thinking, not real compassion :-( altho even with the thought change I do feel less irritated by him - for a nanosecond! Patience, courage and good cheer, (if only I could!!!!) azita #98655 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? scottduncan2 Dear Azita, Regarding: azita: "like yr honesty, Scott. No matter how much we think we should be kind, if there arent the conditions for that, then it doesn't happen eh?" Scott: True, true. It is difficult to sometimes just wait the crabbiness out. It goes eventually. Then the hard part comes in waiting for the self-recrimination to go as well. Anger and conceit. And, in my opinion, this waiting is not some kind of 'passivity' at all. I think that the feeling can be known before the thinking about it begins and sometimes this can be condition for restraint to arise. I don't think that conscious vigilance and forced attention to 'feelings' (considered as conceptual entities) equates to sati. I think this is all about 'me' and 'my feelings'. What I like about what Kh. Sujin says is that she points to the natural process of dhammas unfolding which, for me, is like a conscious waiting and wondering what is occuring and will occur next, without having to fool myself into trying to be a certain way. Considering Dhamma, and virtues like mettaa and the like, keeps these dhammaa in my mind conceptually and I know this does serve, from time to infrequent time, to support kusala. A: "I thought of my neighbour when I read this. I consider him 'strange' and I dislike the cigarette smoke, and try to avoid him when possible. I have this story going on in my head about this 'person' and sometimes I try to have compassion for him but I think its just thinking, not real compassion :-( altho even with the thought change I do feel less irritated by him - for a nanosecond!" Scott: I've got a similar neighbour, my thoughts of whom are condition for exactly the same sort of process. In my case, more often than not, I'm actually 'kind' because he makes me nervous and I wouldn't want to be on his bad side! Aversion masquerading as kindess but more like cowardly sycophancy (ha - not really but close). Sincerely, Scott. #98656 From: "Dr. Han Tun" Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:12 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (25) hantun1 Physical Phenomena (25) Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 2. The Eight Inseparable Ruupas (continuation) Han: This chapter deals with the eight inseparable ruupas (avinibbhoga ruupas), namely, solidity, cohesion, temperature, motion, colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence (pathavii, aapo, tejo, vaayo, va.n.na, gandha, rasa, ojaa). We have read colour and odour, and flavour. We will now read nutritive essence in two installments. Questions and comments are welcome. -------------------- Nutrition is another kind of ruupa which has to arise with every kind of materiality. It can be experienced only through the mind-door. The "Dhammasanga.nii" ( 646) mentions food such as boiled rice, sour gruel, flour, etc., which can be eaten and digested into the "juice" by which living beings are kept alive. The "Atthasaalinii" (II, Book II, Ch III, 330) explains that there is foodstuff, the substance which is swallowed (kaba.linkaaro aahaaro, literally, morsel-made food), and the "nutritive essence"(ojaa). The foodstuff which is swallowed fills the stomach so that one does not grow hungry. The nutritive essence present in food preserves beings, keeps them alive. The nutritive essence in gross foodstuff is weak, and in subtle foodstuff it is strong. After eating coarse grain one becomes hungry after a brief interval. But when one has taken ghee (butter) one does not want to eat for a long time (Atthasaalini, 331). The "Atthasaalini"(332) gives the following definition of nutriment [Note 5] "As to its characteristic, etc., solid food has the characteristic of nutritive essence, the function of fetching matter (to the eater), of sustaining matter as its manifestation, of substance to be swallowed as proximate cause." Nutritive essence is not only present in rice and other foods, it is also present in what we call a rock or sand. It is present in any kind of materiality. Insects are able to digest what human beings cannot digest, such as, for example, wood. Nutrition is one of the four factors which produce ruupas of the body. As we have seen, the other factors are kamma, citta and temperature. [Note 6] In the unborn being in the mother's womb, groups of ruupa produced by nutrition arise as soon as the nutritive essence present in food taken by its mother pervades its body (Visuddhimagga XVII, 194). From then on nutrition keeps on producing ruupas and sustaining the ruupas of the body throughout life. [Note 5] See also Visuddhimagga XIV, 70 [Note 6] See Introduction ------------------------------ Chapter 2. The Eight Inseparable Ruupas to be continued. with metta, Han #98657 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:22 pm Subject: Devoured by Deadly Decoy Delight!! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Deceiving Sensuality: Empty of Happiness! The Blessed Buddha explained all the phenomena of existence as a pain: Whoever delights in forms, feelings, perceptions, mental constructions, and in whatever kind of consciousness, also delights in plain Suffering! Whoever delights in Suffering, cannot ever be freed from Suffering... I tell you: So is it really! SN 22:29 Delight is a Mixed and Camouflaged state! Delight is Craving mixed with & covered by the happiness of satisfaction! Craving is the cause of Suffering! (So indeed is the 2nd Noble Truth!) Therefore is Delight also camouflaged suffering! Deadly is Delight! Why so? Because it makes one seek back for more delight! This seeking itself is, in the death-moment, the very cause of rebirth! When there is birth, there will also be death! Thus: Delight makes Death! Beings are devoured by delight! Again and again! Decoy Delight! INAPPROPRIATE Why laugh? Why party? Always is the world burning! Why in darkness do you not seek light? How can you find delight and laughter Where there is burning without end? In deepest darkness you are wrapped! Why do you not seek for the light? Dhammapada 146 THE FRAGILE FRAME See this painted puppet, one big mass of sores, a diseased frame of skin drawn upon bones, once possessing many evil thoughts, a thing much regarded & beloved, yet of neither stable nor lasting nature ... Look at this puppet here, well rigged up, A heap of many sores, piled up, Diseased, and full of greediness, Unstable, and impermanent! Dhammapada 147 ONLY A FORM This body is worn out, a fragile form, a nest of disease, a rotting mass of deception since its life surely, always, and inevitably ends only in Death ... Devoured by old age is this frame, A prey to sickness, weak and frail; To pieces breaks this putrid body, All life must truly end in death! Dhammapada 148 Blissful is freedom from any sensual urge whatsoever! Udana – Inspiration: II – 1 Comment: Yes there is pleasure in the world. But it always goes away & turns into pain! Taking delight means urging back here by rebirth and thus also more deaths! .... Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Devoured by Deadly Decoy Delight!! #98658 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:08 pm Subject: dosa szmicio Dear friends Chapter about Dosa from Nina's Cetasikas states: #98659 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Atthasalini discussion sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, Alberto & all, Very good Qs and great answers! Keep them up while we're away! Metta, Sarah --- On Sat, 20/6/09, sprlrt wrote: >1) Atth: Because contact arises by means of suitable attention, or 'adverting,' L: What the 'adverting' means here? Is it pancadvaravajjana or manodvaravajjana- citta that adverts to object? A: Neither, it's parikkhate, inspecting, I think: Tajjaasamannaahaare na pana indriyena ca parikkhate visaye anantaraayena uppajjanato esa aapaathagata- visaya-pada. t.thaanoti vuccati. --- 2) Atth: 'Feeling' {Dhs $3} is that which feels. It has (1) experiencing as characteristic. L: 'It has experiencing as characteristic' not the feeling but experiencing, why this distiction was made? It is citta that is a leader in experiencing and all cetasikas also support the citta in experiencing an object. And here there was said the vedana has the characteristic of experience. A: vedana: vedayata_lakkhan (it feels or it experiences fully (a feeling for) the arammana) citta (viana): vijnana_lakkhan (it knows fully the arammana) Vedana also knows the arammana and citta also feels or experiences it, but not as fully. <...> #98660 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Description or doctrine/instruction? sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, Chris, Connie & all, --- On Sun, 21/6/09, kenhowardau wrote: >No apologies necessary! We need spirited discussions at DSG, so please keep it up. .... S: True! >I'm just glad my message was attributed "read" status. That's not always the case. :-) .... S: Also true!! .... C:> so many lessons in humility - so much to learn. ... S: True too.....all anatta, just variegated cittas and cetasikas, of course.... I liked these quotes from Survey on the "variegated cittas": "The world of each person is ruled by his citta. The cittas of some people have accumulated a great deal of wholesomeness (kusala). Even when they meet someone who is full of defilements they can still have loving kindness, compassion or equanimity because of their accumulations of wholesomeness. Whereas the world of someone else may be a world of hatred, annoyance, anger and displeasure, according to his accumulations. Thus, in reality, each person is all the time his own world." ***** "When we are thinking, citta is the reality which thinks, and each person thinks in a different way. Different people who are interested in the Dhamma and study it, consider it and ponder over it in different ways. They also have different points of view as far as the practice is concerned. The world evolves in accordance with the variegated nature of the cittas of different people. The world is constituted by different people living in different countries and participating in different groups and these different individuals condition the events in the world. This occurs because of the variety of thinking of each individual. The world of today evolves in this particular way according to the variegated nature of the cittas of people in this time. How will the world be in the future? It will be again just according to the variegated nature of the cittas which think of many different subjects. Hence we see that citta is of a variegated nature. The citta which sees through the eye-door is one type of citta. It is different from the citta which hears through the ears, which is another type of citta. The citta which thinks is again another type of citta." *** S: This reminds me of someting I heard on tape this morning whilst sitting in the dentist's chair. The more we appreciate that there are no people, just different accumulated cittas - accumulated lobha and dosa, for example, which often manifest through body and speech when strong enough -- the easier it is to have patience, metta and compassion when we associate with others. At such moments the cittas are peaceful and calm. This is the way that calm develops - not by sitting in a quiet room trying to develop metta. I look forward to more 'spirited discussions' from all while we're in Italy! Metta, Sarah ======== #98661 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking sarahprocter... Hi Mike, --- On Sat, 20/6/09, m. nease wrote: >Still catching up-- ... S: I know -- the treadmill of samsara:) ... >s: Whether we're chatting about cats, surf > or visible objects, sati and pa~n~naa have to arise at this very moment. M:> I'd say 'can only', rather than 'have to'. Very rare, to say the least--wouldn' t you say? Other than theoretically? .... S: Yes, 'can only'. 'Have to' in the sense that if it's only ever now. [As you put it, yourself, in another thread to Connie: >> Panna (wisdom) should consider realities and know them one at a time, it > should resolve the whole which is remembered by sa~n~na (mental factor > of remembrance or perception) into different elements. >M: Not only should--it must--] ... >>S: This is where the 'natural' comes in for me. M:>Of course sati or pa~n~naa are vanishingly rare in nature, compared to various unwholesome factors, as I'm sure you'd agree. If you're referring to natural decisive support condition, isn't it--and the activity that it supports--far more likely to be the unwholesome rather than wholesome? .... S: Yes, but no need to 'count' or think about 'how often?', otherwise 'Self' and 'my wholesome/unwholesome' is likely to creep in again, I think. The 'natural' refers to how sati or pa~n~naa have to arise by conditions anytime, any moment -- not by anyone having special intentions or trying to 'do' something to make them arise. Even when overwhelmed by lobha or dosa, sati and pa~n~naa can arise naturally in between the akusala processes, knowing seeing, visible object or dosa for what they are. Metta, Sarah ======== #98662 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking sarahprocter... Hi Mike, --- On Sat, 20/6/09, m. nease wrote: >Sorry for the delay-- ... S: Well I'll apologise in advance for long delays after this flurry of posts today. I won't have a computer with me in Italy. ... > > >S:...the text (Puggala-Pa~ n~natti) introduces 'puggala-pa~ n~natti' > > with: > > > > "In what ways is there a designation of human types? > > 1- Grouping of Human Types by One. > > > > "(1) One who is emancipated in season (samayavimutto) <...> >> S: I would say that in either case (i.e. 'suttanta' method or > 'abhidhamma method'), concepts (pa~n~natti) are used to point to > dhammas. .... M:> Yes, well, this is where we seem to disagree. You "would say that in either case (i.e. 'suttanta' method or 'abhidhamma method'), concepts (pa~n~natti) are used to point to dhammas." I would say that, in the case of "...there are priests & contemplatives. ..", although the 'beings' referred to are ultimately designations of past naamas and ruupas, that the language isn't being used primarily to 'point' at these, but rather to inspire etc. Two different (though obviously closely related) things, as I see it. ... S: I would say that it depends on the particular example as to what is being pointed at. I'd say that in both the 'truncated' example above or the one in MN117, that the designations are pointing to paramattha dhammas. In other examples, it may not be apparent (and to you, not in the case of the 'priests and contemplatives....' in 117), but I think that often this is because we miss some of the finer meaning due to our ignorance and lack of commentary detail to assist us with the suttas. .... > ***** >> S: We all agree that 'beings' are pa~n~natti. But isn't the important > point to understand is that there are actually only cittas, cetasikas > and rupas in reality, however we dress them up? M:>Certainly that is AN important point--I'd say the most important point, in fact--but it isn't the only point made in the texts. I think it's also important to recognize when that is the point being made and when it isn't. ... S: Yes, that's fine. .... > M:>> Not always to designate or to point, as I see it--often to inspire, > exhort, explain, encourage, discourage and so on. > .... >> S: I'm sure this is true, but with an underlying understanding of the > absolute realities, I think. M:> Right. This is where we disagree. I don't believe that every word the Buddha spoke either assumed "an underlying understanding of the absolute realities" on the part of his audience or was meant expressly as an instruction in their nature (though of course many correctly made the former assumption and many others were such instructions) . .... S: I agree that we can't assume "and underlying understanding of absolute realities" on the part of the listeners. Everyone reads/listens according to the various 'variegated cittas' at the time. However, whether or not there is any understanding at such times, there are only cittas, cetasikas and rupas and I think that whatever we read or hear *should be* understood in the light of the teachings as a whole. Otherwise there is the danger of reading one sutta in the light of anatta, such as the anattalakkhana sutta, and another with an idea of atta or control, as Han sometimes refers to:). .... >I think he spoke in a great many other ways on a great many other topics, often with no hidden meaning 'to be drawn out' (as in the allowing of the toothstick). Of course the entire body of the teachings circles round and directs toward insight, no question in my mind. Everything in the texts not directly encouraging insight contributes to laying the groundwork for its cultivation (such as the structure of the sa"ngha, for example), as I see it. But that's a different thing from saying that every single word he ever spoke referred to insight either directly or indirectly. ... S: OK, agreed. I don't think I've ever said the latter quite like that. ... >>S: For example, the above quote might be used > to inspire followers to develop insight and become enlightened, but > without an understanding of namas and rupas, of conditioned dhammas, > such an exhortation is quite useless. M:>Of course it is insight itself that understands naamas and ruupas; for most people, even in the Buddha's day, it's necessary first to learn concepts consistent the the Four Noble Truths (e.g. "...there are priests & contemplatives. ..") before insight can arise, as I see it (and I'd include the theoretical understanding of naamas and ruupas as being among those concepts). >By the way, I doubt (as I'm sure you do) that any of the Buddha's exhortations were ever quite useless. Exhortations 'to inspire followers' etc. would surely, in most cases, precede any insight. ... S: Yes, I'm quite sure they were never useless. The Buddha knew exactly what was helpful for anyone to hear at any given time, depending on their accumulations. Even if a sutta was not appreciated at the time, he knew when it would bear fruit later, as in cases such as Devadatta or the monks in the Mulapariyaya Sutta. Great chatting, Mike. Look forward to more discussions and 'quibbles'.....Please keep up the 'spirited' discussions with the others in the meantime. Metta, Sarah ======= #98663 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Journey. Was: Description or doctrine/instruction? nilovg Dear Sarah and Jon, Happy traveling. We are often thinking of both of you and hope Jon is feeling better. We are wondering where in Italy you will be and look at the weather forecasts. See below. Op 24-jun-2009, om 8:32 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > The more we appreciate that there are no people, just different > accumulated cittas - accumulated lobha and dosa, for example, which > often manifest through body and speech when strong enough -- the > easier it is to have patience, metta and compassion when we > associate with others. At such moments the cittas are peaceful and > calm. This is the way that calm develops - not by sitting in a > quiet room trying to develop metta. > > I look forward to more 'spirited discussions' from all while we're > in Italy! ------- N: Yes, cittas, no personalities. Then we understand better that these are conditioned in different ways. The more we understand conditioned dhammas, the less will we be inclined to judge others. Knowing our 'own' cittas helps. We see how these just arise unexpectantly because of conditions, no self who can prevent their arising. When I am praised: what an amount of conceit arises. It is conditioned, but I do not like it. That shows the idea of self again. Nina. #98664 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:48 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 12. nilovg Dear friends, Wisdom can make us free, but we should not expect results within a short time. Do you remember the sutta about the handle of the knife which wears out very slowly, in the Kindred Sayings (III, Khandh- vagga, Middle Fifty, Adze-handle)? The Buddha speaks about the handle of a knife which one holds each day. It gradually wears away, but one cannot notice how much is worn out each day. We cannot control the frequency of awareness, since it is anatt, not self, arising because of its own conditions. However, even a few moments of awareness in between lobha, dosa and moha is very beneficial. One begins to develop the Path which will surely lead to freedom. We read about the condition for freedom from defilements in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Salyatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Third Fifty, Chapter III; 124). We read about a conversation the housefather Ugga had with the Buddha: Pray, lord, what is the condition, what is the cause whereby in this world some beings are not wholly set free in this very life, while other beings are wholly set free? There are, housefather, objects cognizable by the eye. sounds cognizable by the earscentssavourstangibles cognizable by the body...mind-states cognizable by the mindIf he has grasping for them, housefather, a monk is not wholly set free. That, housefather, is the condition, that is the cause whereby in this world some beings are not wholly set free in this very life. Likewise, housefather, there are objects cognizable by the eyeIf he has no grasping for them a monk is wholly set free. That, housefather, is the condition, that is the cause whereby in this very life some beings are not wholly set free, while other beings are wholly set free. When there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or thinking, are we free? Dont you find that at the moment of mindfulness of one object at a time there is a beginning of freedom? There is less enslavement to objects and one is on the way leading to the eradication of the wrong view of self, of personality belief. There is no other way but the development of understanding of the realities which present themselves through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind-door. ******* Nina. #98665 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cetanaa, intention. was: To Rob Ep. Part 1. kenhowardau Hi Nina, ------- <. . .> N:He means it is not a Path factor. Some people translate right thinking, sammaa sa:nkappa as right intention. Ven. D wants to emphasize here that one should not think of a self who has intention to do this or that. ------- Thanks Nina. I would say that, although there is thinking in magga-citta, there is not the kind of thinking that conceptualises. There is no conceptualising (with or without the idea of self) in any citta that takes a paramattha dhamma as its object. -------------- Ken H: > >So where does that leave us when we talk about (for example) > > the intention to kill? > > N: > Then there is akusala cetanaa or akusala kamma. Kamma is cetanaa. --------------- Yes, but I have trouble understanding exactly how cetana (a paramattha dhamma) can be said to function with regard to a sentient being (a pannatti dhamma). But I'll leave it at that for now. I theorise too much. :-) Ken H #98666 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:18 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 23-jun-2009, om 17:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Also true, however, is that proper action doesn't > consist only of passivity. In fact, passivity often is immoral. ------ N: Passivity is a difficult notion. When considering citta, it is never passive, always busy knowing one object or other. The point is: is citta accompanied by beautiful cetasikas, thus, kusala citta, or by akusala cetasikas, thus, akusala. When the citta is kusala citta it knows how to motivate action and speech in the wholesome way. ------------ H: I regret that I expressed any anger to Scott, and I apologize for that. I tried to temper the expression of anger, but I could have done better. ------ N: I appreciate this. You and Scott are very sincere. I think, in the case of both of you, that in the fire of expressing your views it happens that what is written is sharper than you intended. I am not a 'peacemaker' as you suggest. It is the Dhamma itself that is. We read in the Co to the Sutta on the Three Refuges (Khuddaka Nikaya): When there is peace, there is protection from fear and there is consolation, given by the Buddha. ------- Nina. #98667 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Be here now sarahprocter... Hi Mike & Scott, --- On Sat, 20/6/09, m. nease wrote: >Well, we have friends who visit the 'holy sites', make offerings to bhikkhus and circumambulate stupas, and I certainly hope that these activities 'contain' some kusala kamma. ..... S: Citta by citta, of course and only pa~n~naa will know... ... >I think I recall these activities being encouraged in the texts, but I don't have a citation off-hand. .... S: See below. .... M:>The great danger, as I see it, lies in expecting these conventional activities to yield insight. This, I think, is a working description of silabbataparamassa (spelling correction gratefully welcomed). ... S: Yes, with any 'conventional activities', it all comes down to the citta and the view at the time and I'm sure these are as mixed for most of us whilst circumnambulating stupas as at other times. There are likely, of course, to be many opportunities for reflection on the Triple Gem, opportunities for sati, pa~n~naa and saddhaa, opportunities for consideration for and appreciation of others good deeds, but also the opposite as you suggest. It always comes back to the citta and views at the time. As for the textual references, I think this is the main one from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html Four Places of Pilgrimage 16. "There are four places, Ananda, that a pious person should visit and look upon with feelings of reverence. [42] What are the four? 17. "'Here the Tathagata was born!' [43] This, Ananda, is a place that a pious person should visit and look upon with feelings of reverence. 18. "'Here the Tathagata became fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment!' [44] This, Ananda, is a place that a pious person should visit and look upon with feelings of reverence. 19. "'Here the Tathagata set rolling the unexcelled Wheel of the Dhamma!' [45] This, Ananda, is a place that a pious person should visit and look upon with feelings of reverence. 20. "'Here the Tathagata passed away into the state of Nibbana in which no element of clinging remains!' This, Ananda, is a place that a pious person should visit and look upon with feelings of reverence. 21. "These, Ananda, are the four places that a pious person should visit and look upon with feelings of reverence. And truly there will come to these places, Ananda, pious bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, reflecting: 'Here the Tathagata was born! Here the Tathagata became fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment! Here the Tathagata set rolling the unexcelled Wheel of the Dhamma! Here the Tathagata passed away into the state of Nibbana in which no element of clinging remains!' 22. "And whoever, Ananda, should die on such a pilgrimage with his heart established in faith, at the breaking up of the body, after death, will be reborn in a realm of heavenly happiness." .... A commentary quote from the PTS "The Buddha's Last Days", p.153: "In the text, 'by one who has faith [pasaada]': by one who has thoughts of confidence in the Buddha, etc., and who is seen to perform all his duties [S:rules for monks, I think] such as duties towards the stuupa courtyard from morning on. 'Those which should be seen': those worthy to be seen, those which should be visited in order to see them. 'Those which should cause religious feeling [sa.mvega]': Those which produce awe. 'Places': either occasions or places in the sense of locations. 'Whoever indeed': this is said to show that visiting shrines generates benefits. "In the text, 'those who [monastics and lay people] are travelling to visit shrines': Those who make a journey, sweeping here and there in the courtyards of shrines and washing seats and watering Bo-trees, in them there is nothing to criticise. He shows that if people set out with the intention of worshipping a shrine at a certain monastery, even if they should die with thoughts of tranquil faith, they will surely reach heaven without impediment." ***** Metta, Sarah ======== #98668 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cetanaa, intention. was: To Rob Ep. Part 1. nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 24-jun-2009, om 10:09 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > Ken H: > >So where does that leave us when we talk about (for example) > > > the intention to kill? > > > > > N: > Then there is akusala cetanaa or akusala kamma. Kamma is cetanaa. > --------------- > > K: Yes, but I have trouble understanding exactly how cetana (a > paramattha > dhamma) can be said to function with regard to a sentient being (a > pannatti dhamma). But I'll leave it at that for now. I theorise too > much. :-) --------- N: But in reality, as you always stress, what we refer to as sentient being, say, an ant or cricket, are citta, cetasika and ruupa. When destroying the body that is constituted by ruupas (including the life faculty ruupa), there is akusala cetanaa or kamma. It has to be known that there is what we call a living being, the consciousness of there being a living creature, the intention to kill, effort in doing so and death as a consequence. The Atthasaalini (Expositor, p. 128): Anymore doubt? Is this dilemma similar to the one on daana you raised at K.K.? ****** Nina. #98669 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:28 am Subject: To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) szmicio Dear Ken > In his Be Here Now talk, Ven Dhammadharo spoke about intention. I liked > everything he said about it, of course, but I couldn't quite tell when > he was referring to the concept of intention, and when he was referring > to cetana (or even chanda). L: we think about concept all the time, so we talk about concepts. I like Ajahn saying: That is clear when there is ~nana, and if ther is no ~nana nothing is clear. My best wishes Lukas #98670 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:49 am Subject: Away - catch up soon! sarahprocter... Dear Friends, I need to sign off now as it's time to leave for the airport. Tomorrow morning we'll be in Italy! I hope I've replied to most messages addressed to me. There's one that's outstanding which somehow I'd mislaid and now don't have time to do justice to it. That's Howard's #98417. Howard, I'd really like to pursue the thread, so apologies for what will be a very late reply, probably back in Hong Kong. As I said, I'll have very limited internet access (Jon will have a little more). Ken, Scott and Connie are also helping behind the scenes. Pls everyone keep up the posting and 'spirited discussions' and I'll look forward to following along as Jon downloads onto his computer. I'll try to send a brief email or two, esp. if we have any interesting encounters en route. Metta, Sarah ======== #98671 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Away - catch up soon! upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/24/2009 8:49:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Friends, I need to sign off now as it's time to leave for the airport. Tomorrow morning we'll be in Italy! ------------------------------------------ No doubt you'll be reading this only after you've arrived. Have a wonderful time there, Sarah! Rita & I were there only onc., We *adored* it!! (I'm envious, Sarah! ;-) ------------------------------------------- I hope I've replied to most messages addressed to me. There's one that's outstanding which somehow I'd mislaid and now don't have time to do justice to it. That's Howard's #98417. Howard, I'd really like to pursue the thread, so apologies for what will be a very late reply, probably back in Hong Kong. --------------------------------------------- Yes, I had noticed that was not replied to. (And it surprised me that you hadn't replied, for I was SURE you wouldn't want that left unchallenged! LOLOL!) ------------------------------------------- As I said, I'll have very limited internet access (Jon will have a little more). Ken, Scott and Connie are also helping behind the scenes. Pls everyone keep up the posting and 'spirited discussions' and I'll look forward to following along as Jon downloads onto his computer. I'll try to send a brief email or two, esp. if we have any interesting encounters en route. ---------------------------------------- Again, Sarah, have a wonderful time. :-) ---------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98672 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 24-jun-2009, om 11:28 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > L: we think about concept all the time, so we talk about concepts. > I like Ajahn saying: That is clear when there is ~nana, and if ther > is no ~nana nothing is clear. ------ N: We use the word concept all the time. True, when vipassanaa ~naa.na has arisen, it is clear what a reality is and what a concept. Theoretical knowledge cannot be as clear. Meanwhile, we also have to realize that there are many kinds of pa~n~natti. A word or term that can denote what is real, or what is not real. An idea denoted by a term. See Realities and Concepts by Kh Sujin, as I recently referred to. The words naama and ruupa are words, concepts, that denote realities. Nina. #98673 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:07 am Subject: To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) szmicio Dear Nina What are the conditions for vipassana ~naa.na? My best wishes Lukas > N: We use the word concept all the time. True, when vipassanaa > ~naa.na has arisen, it is clear what a reality is and what a concept. > Theoretical knowledge cannot be as clear. > Meanwhile, we also have to realize that there are many kinds of > pa~n~natti. A word or term that can denote what is real, or what is > not real. An idea denoted by a term. See Realities and Concepts by Kh > Sujin, as I recently referred to. > The words naama and ruupa are words, concepts, that denote realities. #98674 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cetanaa, intention. was: To Rob Ep. Part 1. m_nease Hi Ken and Nina, kenhowardau wrote: > Ken H: > >So where does that leave us when we talk about (for example) > > > the intention to kill? > > N: > Then there is akusala cetanaa or akusala kamma. Kamma is cetanaa. > > Yes, but I have trouble understanding exactly how cetana (a paramattha > dhamma) can be said to function with regard to a sentient being (a > pannatti dhamma). But I'll leave it at that for now. I theorise too > much. :-) Can't pa~n~natti be object condition--or one of several other conditions--for cetanaa? mike #98675 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 24-jun-2009, om 17:07 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > What are the conditions for vipassana ~naa.na? ------- N: Just continue to listen, consider, ask questions, discuss, just what we are doing now. Then there will be conditions for right awareness and direct understanding which is different from intellectual understanding. The objects are the same, but pa~n~naa develops more. Along with this the perfections are indispensable, they assist. We do not have to think, 'I must develop the perfections' then a self is involved again. But right now, while we are considering what appears at this moment, is there no patience? Is there no energy or effort? There have to be. Determination is essential. I quote from the 'Perfections": < Without the four foundation dhammas, adihna dhammas, of truthfulness, relinquishment, calm, and pa, we cannot reach the further shore. If a person sees the benefit of steadfastness in relinquishment, cgadihna, the elimination of defilements, he also has steadfastness in calm, upasamadihna; calm is freedom of defilements. We are absorbed in and disturbed by visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. True calm is freedom from infatuation with the sense objects. We also need to develop the perfection of renunciation, nekkhamma pram, in order to reach this freedom. Even someone who is a layfollower may gradually abandon clinging to the sense objects and to the married state. He may be a layfollower who is not married because he sees the disadvantage of the strong bond of family life which is a burden. Thus, seeing the benefit of renunciation conditions steadfastness in calm. When someone is firmly established in the foundation dhamma of calm, it is conditioned by the foundation dhamma of pa. Padihna is the fourth foundation dhamma. Pa can be accumulated by listening to the Dhamma, by considering it and testing its meaning by asking questions. In this way we can verify what is kusala, what is akusala, what is wrong, what is right, and we can understand what kamma is and what its result. When we listen to the Dhamma we can investigate the true nature of realities that are cause and that are result. We should use every opportunity to listen to the Dhamma during this lifespan. Someone may be negligent in listening to the Dhamma, and he may think that by listening once or only a few times, he can be freed from the cycle of birth and death. Then his determination is not yet firm enough. He should further develop the foundation dhamma of pa, and in this way the perfection of determination will become accomplished. The perfection of determination is an essential condition for the perfection of pa that leads to reaching the further shore, that is, the realization of nibbna. ****** Nina. #98676 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:15 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) truth_aerator Hello Ken and all, I was pointed to this topic, so here few replies. >"kenhowardau" wrote: > > Alex has some very strange ideas about Buddhism. Quite the opposite. Some people here have quite unorthodox beliefs. This creates so much pain for the teaching, that I have recently simply ignored this. I can't get myself awakened, (anatta, remember?) so why bother with trying to enlighten others (until the causes & conditions are right for my own, a much easier task, awakening). >Sometimes he thinks the Buddha believed in a self, Buddha taught Anatta. >sometimes he is not sure whether he did or > not. He has a very low opinion of the Abidhamma and the ancient > commentaries. >Sometimes he argues that Mahayana is superior to Theravada. WOW. Hold it! Where did I say that? NO. I don't believe in Marayana. >Alex believes passionately in formal meditation, but his > style of meditation is probably not at all like yours (or other DSG > meditators'). My style of meditation is to let go, stop controlling, let the impersonal mind process develop in letting go rather than holding and accumulating. Obviously I don't believe in a Self that meditates or attains Jhana. If there were a Self and I could control meditations then I'd be cruising Jhanas and Aruppas up and down and I'd be an Arahant by now... This is not withing "my" power and everything is simply a process. >There is only one thing common to all formal meditators. And that > >is, they believe the Dhamma to be a set of instructions. Of course it is a set of instructions, to condition the mind to let go and naturally develop relinquishment and achieve total extinction, PariNibbana when the causes are right. Reading about awakening is like reading the menu. It is just words. They must be put into action and actually "tasted". Word "sweet, sour, spicy etc" is not the same as actually tasting it. The mind cannot know the meaning of cessation, relinquishment, giving up, from reading dry books. It has to experience it, just like you cannot know the true taste until you taste it, not read it on the menu. People *think* they are wise because they can recite Abhidhamma. But when you loose sunglasses you forget about anatta and get angry... Show wisdom by letting go of the hindrances, reaching Jhanas and reaching Paths & fruits. Reciting is what parrots can do quite well. Get it? With metta, Alex #98677 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/24/2009 2:52:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Lukas, Op 24-jun-2009, om 17:07 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > What are the conditions for vipassana ~naa.na? ------- N: Just continue to listen, consider, ask questions, discuss, just what we are doing now. -------------------------------------------- ;-)) Ah, I missed the sutta that said that posting such as we do on DSG is the means to cultivate liberating wisdom! ------------------------------------------ Then there will be conditions for right awareness and direct understanding which is different from intellectual understanding. The objects are the same, but pa~n~naa develops more. ------------------------------------------- So, thinking about the Dhamma and discussing it is "the ancient road" referred to in The City sutta? I don't think so. --------------------------------------------- Along with this the perfections are indispensable, they assist. We do not have to think, 'I must develop the perfections' then a self is involved again. -------------------------------------------- How then do they develop? Are we back to what we do on DSG? Our studies and discussions constitute the conditions for the perfections? And, BTW, if a self is involved in thinking that intentional actions should be taken to develop the perfections, would it not also be involved in thinking that one should "Just continue to listen, consider, ask questions, discuss, just what we are doing now"? I am surprised that I am still amazed at there being no mention of being intentionally attentive to what is happening at all times, of actively guarding the senses - resisting evil, letting go of already arisen harmful states, and encouraging wholesome states and furthering wholesome states already arisen, of reining in one's speech (which I need to be more careful about) and more generally intentionally refraining from harmful actions, of choosing a proper occupation, and of calming the mind through meditation - attaining the jhanas if possible. I find myself still amazed to see only study and discussion given as methodology, with all else following as automatic consequence. I suppose, though, that it may be good that this still amazes me, for that may show an optimism on my part rather than a foolishness. ================================= With metta, Howard /"It is just as if a man, traveling along a wilderness track, were to see an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by people of former times. He would follow it. Following it, he would see an ancient city, an ancient capital inhabited by people of former times, complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. He would go to address the king or the king's minister, saying, 'Sire, you should know that while traveling along a wilderness track I saw an ancient path... I followed it... I saw an ancient city, an ancient capital... complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. Sire, rebuild that city!' The king or king's minister would rebuild the city, so that at a later date the city would become powerful, rich, & well-populated, fully grown & prosperous. "In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path. "Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings."/ (From the Nagara Sutta) #98678 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:44 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? nichiconn Howard! how could you think of doing virgin beer! Quoting Silananda: << If I say you may be doing evil when you eat, what will you think? 'Evil' is defined as that which is associated with attachment, or ill will, or delusion or ignorance. If there is some attachment in your state of mind, then that is Akusala.>> The poor ants. A later episode of my nature drama saw the neighbour having the "pest control" truck power spraying his siding. ... OMG! Why MY back yard????? Is mom's the only "Buddha" on the block?? Not as colorful a picture, but pretty much the same as recently televised images of people downing an "asshole regime". Concept, concept: (virtual?) reality -vs- the "code" in Lukas' Inspiring Quote: << There appeared only the great ocean, strewn with foam thrown off by the breaking of the billows, and looking like a sheet of silver spread out on a bed of jasmine flowers. >> He did not see an ocean... apparently. What could not, in daily life, serve to induce or support the arising of a counterpart sign? Or be the springboard to deeper insight? ;) pull the right thread & the jacket unravels? As for the percept, etc... i struggle a bit with the dictionary's "sensation"; but yeah, thanks for answering... and drifting back from percept to precept... what're the real intoxicants in our lives? Ordinarily, I'd come home from my walk & delete this, but at my last stop on the way, happened to see the completed work order from Pest Control by the back door. peace, connie #98679 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Away - catch up soon! ksheri3 As for maintaining the trivial banty which Sarash spoke of being maintained in her absense I might as well add a miniscule tangent, a flash of light. Sure, this group is based upon the foundationals and the fundamentals of Buddhism but there are m any people here that have the ability to understand what I speak of. They also have the true faith in the Buddhist system since, although indecision and fear are common with my posts or/and any interaction that I have with any other person (a form of SOLITARY CONFINEMENT) Jon, for one person seems confident enough in the teachings to casually allow my posts to go through albeit after they pass through the extruder. lol. A sausage grinder, I'm makin' a joke. Ah yes, why would I bother posting here when my friend Sarah has left? No problems, I just couldn't miss the direct application to TIME & SPACE which I'm constantly having in my meditations i.e. every concept that a person could speak of deals with or has to deal with one or the other or even both, TIME & SPACE. Sure, I need considerable help in this totally new esoteric study called Tibetan Buddhism which is certained upon the Varjanyana and the Kagyu, jeeeze, and the Nyingma, and a few others. basically it's Mahayana. Sure, where would I be without the dillegence of the Theravadan community constantly reminding me and making sure that I"m focused, about the fundamentals of Buddhism. This is such a vast study that in the six or seven years that I've tried to study it, there is simply no way possible for me to have even barely scratched the surface. This concept of NO TIME and NO SPACE appear to be critical conceptions and, in their own right, foundational for the Madhyamikas , et al. For instance the only thing that I can possibly theorize is the potential for a Here to exist and if Time could possibly exist then it must be NOW. I love the thoughts and practice of transcednding this lunacy called a PAST DHARMA, a PRESENT DHARMA, and the creme de la creme, a FUTURE DHARMA. LIke the Sambogakaya, the Nirmanakaya, and the Dharmakaya, they are not different, they are the same thing, it is the consciousness that changes! So in Sarah's absense, what shall we discuss? I raised the issue of a very current and valuable concept called Time & Space which Sarah was kind enough to illude to before she hallucinatinated a "departure", a going and that she is the goer (nargarjuna) Although it's a Mahayana practice the concept of Longde and Semde seem very applicable. Any thoughts? toodles, colette #98680 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 6/24/2009 4:45:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: Howard! how could you think of doing virgin beer! ------------------------------------------ I would drink 2 virgin beers - but I might dream of 72. ;-) ------------------------------------------ Quoting Silananda: << If I say you may be doing evil when you eat, what will you think? 'Evil' is defined as that which is associated with attachment, or ill will, or delusion or ignorance. If there is some attachment in your state of mind, then that is Akusala.>> ----------------------------------------------- Mmm, still attached I am! (Yoda) ----------------------------------------------- The poor ants. A later episode of my nature drama saw the neighbour having the "pest control" truck power spraying his siding. ... OMG! Why MY back yard????? Is mom's the only "Buddha" on the block?? Not as colorful a picture, but pretty much the same as recently televised images of people downing an "asshole regime". ------------------------------------------- Not quite the same. :-) ------------------------------------------ Concept, concept: (virtual?) reality -vs- the "code" in Lukas' Inspiring Quote: << There appeared only the great ocean, strewn with foam thrown off by the breaking of the billows, and looking like a sheet of silver spread out on a bed of jasmine flowers. >> He did not see an ocean... apparently. What could not, in daily life, serve to induce or support the arising of a counterpart sign? Or be the springboard to deeper insight? ;) pull the right thread & the jacket unravels? ---------------------------------------------- I like that last. To find that thread, we need to see the threads and not the jacket. :-) ----------------------------------------------- As for the percept, etc... i struggle a bit with the dictionary's "sensation"; but yeah, thanks for answering... and drifting back from percept to precept... what're the real intoxicants in our lives? Ordinarily, I'd come home from my walk & delete this, but at my last stop on the way, happened to see the completed work order from Pest Control by the back door. ----------------------------------------------- It's an imperfect world, an imperfect state we are in, an imperfect approach we take to things. 'Imperfection' is the way it is ... until seen rightly. --------------------------------------------- peace, connie =========================== With metta, Howard Be Here Now /Entrances to holiness are everywhere. The possibility of ascent is all the time, even at unlikely times and through unlikely places. There is no place without the Presence/ (From Mishkan T'filah, the new Reform prayerbook) #98681 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:41 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) - meditation truth_aerator Hello Ken, Sarah, Suan and all, Proper meditation is about non-doing, disengaging self-views and relinquishing attachments. When you sit down and close your eyes, you are temporarily relinquishing sights. When you sit in a place outside of smells and activity, you are relinquishing smells and things 'to do'. When you watch the breath and you don't control it, you are relinquishing that aspect of control. You refine the mind's awareness and can focus more and more on the arising & ceasing of mental states. The more the mind lets go, the deeper into peace and tranquillity the mind goes. The more control you try to do (Let me reach this or that Jhana! Where is awakening! I want to awaken) the more disturbed the meditation is. The meditation is a great place to see Anatta-in-action. Mental states are out of control. *I* cannot will this or that mind states. Hindrances happen regardless of the wish to the contrary. So what is left to do is to give up control. This giving up of control is anatta as well. But as the 'giving up' happens, hindrances start to fall away. The reasons for hindrances is the deluded Self view, and delusive Self feeling, Self intention, and Selfish intention to control. Sensual desire, restlessness, and doubt may keep one from meditating at all! This just shows how much hindrances are in non-meditators. It takes a lot of relinquishment (through proper understanding) to be able to sit down and calm down the delusion of Self & The Doer. When there is Self delusion, there is 'doing' of this and that. You know dishes have to be washed, the garden needs to be taken care of, one has to "read the Abhidhamma to 'understand the realities'" so on and so forth. For many this is the example of doing. Proper and succesful meditation is the ability to let go off doing. A very hard thing for some to do. Reading Abhidhamma for some can be an ego trip like [misused] meditation for some misguided meditators. Remember, the Self (or control, or any doing) is not a factor, it is an obstacle for proper Buddhist, meditation. Reading as a path to awakening is similiar to Hindu Beliefs (ex: Jnana Yoga) while deep and proper meditation is exclusively Buddhist. --- An interesting passage regarding the disturbances that may come: "If internally the intellect is intact and externally ideas come into range, but there is no corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. But when internally the intellect is intact and externally ideas come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness." [repeat the same for other 5 senses.] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html In Satipatthana samyutta there is passage that says that attention -> dhamma (as in mental qualities) Note the importance of not just the meeting for external & internal elements but volitional engagement as well. How does this relate to meditation? The reason we are disturbed by external sounds, bodily feelings, ideas and so on is because of attention (or conscious engagement) which is desire for these things. If one could temporary (at first) remove all the desire for these things, they would not produce corresponding type of consciousness that would kick you out of the bliss. Thus what needs to be done is to develop contentment, relinquishment, separation, disengagement which would lead to cessation of those consciousness and whatever hindrances that may arise. So the meditation should never be "lets wrestle and force out all distractions". This may cause samadhi headache but not awakening. Ultimately one cannot force the mind to be still, only deep contentment and letting go can. When it comes to Sankharas (2nd link in DO) I think that this is important, meditation wise. Deep Samadhi states (from which wisdom grows) are temporary pacifications of Sankharas. The thing conditioning Sankharas is Avijja. Avijja paccaya sankaro. Thus success in Buddhist meditation is temporary switching off Avijja, and the more avijja you manage to temporarily shut off - the deeper the Jhana. And in these moments if one's observation powers are strong & sharp, when avijja is temporarily knocked out, one may see what avijja has concealed. Eventually this sneak peak, the look at the bottom of the ocean where the waters have parted (ala Moses), can lead to awakening. As long as there is Avijja, liberative wisdom cannot arise. Since avijja is conditioned, it is possible to temporary (at first) to disable it in deep meditations. Since it is avijja that conditions & feeds sankharas which are gradually switched off in Jhana, by suspending avijja the sankharas are suspended as well. Few pointers regarding anapanasati: -Don't crave for the in/out breath that has not happened yet (this is greed). This was somewhere in Ptsm. on Anapanasati. In any case, if mind is coloured with sensual desire, that is a hindrance to impersonally seeing things as they have arisen. Greed (desire, longing, etc) can be for anything and during meditation one should try to remove as much of hindrances as possible. -Try not to be aversive to breath or whatever disturbance is happening while you are sitting. This is engaging the mind about how bad the breath is and just creates more disturbances that you are trying to remove! You are shooting yourself in a foot! This is why it is important to relax the body to pacify the bodily discomfort that can trigger aversion , and to be mindful of HOW the mind relates to the breath (or whatever object of meditation is) to avoid aversion. While keeping the mindfulness as sharp as possible do not try to control what happens, don't feed the delusion of "Self that can control the meditation [or anything else]". This is engaging with Self-View and thoughts. More engagement = less contentment and more distractions happening in the mind. The Self belief is not a factor, it is an obstacle. Controlling goes against Anatta. Anatta = no total control. Let go of all controling, manipulating and other self interactions during meditation. It is safe, it isn't driving :). Try to temporarily relinquish as much as possible. Only then will you go deeper. Try to be like a passanger in a car or in an airplane. Let go of the steering wheel and commanding Ego Mind. -The attention should not only be on the breath, but on the way the MIND relates to the breath. Mindfulness should be mindful and counter-act any hindrances that arise between the mind & the breath. Here is a danger in overconcentrating on the breath itself to the exclusion of all else - you may miss the more important happening, the mental *reaction* to the breath. As long as there are hindrances, percieved or not, proper deep Meditations + insight cannot happen. This is crucial. There is nothing that special in the breath itself, but the mental reaction to the object is far more important. The more mind reacts to the breath (with like, dislike or controlling) the less quit and peaceful meditation is. You cannot use force to let go! Sometimes too much concentration on the breath itself may make one inattentive to desire or aversion or self delusion that the mind has. The one-pointedness achieved should not be "forced" . Tranquilize the restlessness, tranquilize the desire & discontent that causes the mind to wobble and "move" to other subjects. The more contentment you build and more you disengage, renounce, let-go - the less the mind engages in thinking, perceiving and willing. Contentedness with what is, during meditation is very important, crucial actually. This is one of the reasons why there needs to be piti-sukkha (through letting go and relinquishing the heavy burdens) happening. The more bliss one gets from the breath-meditation, the easier it is to maintain still one-pointedness of mind. Furthermore the more bliss of letting go one achieves the more incentive the mind has to let go of holding and the more one experientially sees 4 NT. Considering how much some have studied Dhamma, it would not be surprising that after deep Samadhi the mind would automatically incline to what it has studied before, drop the fetters and make the awakening happen. Remember there is no Self-Controller that can command awakening to happen. Awakening happens when the delusion of Self (and all its relations) is dispelled. The Self with all the things that Self must do, is what prevents from getting into deeper meditations. Sitting meditation is the best place to totally relinquish all doing & controlling, and let the mind sink into wonderful and blissful states. By blissing out due to LETTING GO the mind (not The Self) eventually and experimentially learns that there is higher happiness and the mind inclines toward that higher happiness. Also this is a mental skill (that is not yet developed), to let go, which is refined more and more during meditations and is conditioned into the mental stream. Eventually the new and better skill (to let go) is assimilated into the mental stream and eventually this "second nature" becomes the "natural" inclination of the mind. Eventually little by little, the mind relinquishes more and more until it learns the skill to let go of samsara for good - why? Because it is so peaceful & blissful to cease as all that arises is unsatisfactory and all that is lost is just pointless suffering. All that is of the nature to arise, ceases. If one holds to anything, that will cease and be lost (for sure). When nothing is held, nothing is lost. That is peaceful. Don't have a Self view. Meditate! With metta, Alex #98683 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:48 pm Subject: To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) nichiconn Hi Alberto, > ------------- (#98537). All I really get out of it is 'o, those are the neat verses about the two truths at the end'. Alberto A long passage but ok,... I've saved it and I'll see what I can do (no deadline, right? :-), for now I'd summed it up as: if it doesn't arise and fall away immediately one can safely assume it's paatti, not the real thing. c: Right, no deadlines! No requirement to do anything more, actually... unless we ask Sarah? Is it even the right long passage? Sarah's summary: "What is meant here is: even when there is no reference to namas and rupas or khandhas, words such as 'people' are to be understood as merely common expressions used for convenience." peace, connie #98684 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:51 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? nichiconn I dunno, Howard, we've a fairly small screen tv and it was just a short glance followed by more thoughts of living beings just wanting to be happy... not sure we really yearn for peace quite so. Yeah, imperfections rule... even the kusala 'we manage (to do)' would generally not be for the sake of dispersion. "Victim mentality" is dangerous territory, I find. To Yoda! connie re: #98680 #98685 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking kenhowardau Hi Mike (and Sarah), I agree with you on all the important points about anatta, but I want to continue hounding you about the Buddha's so-called conventional teachings. I do this simply to make the point that anatta cannot be taken too far. It can be taken 'not far enough' - and that will lead to anomalies in Dhamma study - but it can never be taken too far. --------- <. . .> M: > >I think he spoke in a great many other ways on a great many other topics, often with no hidden meaning 'to be drawn out' (as in the allowing of the toothstick). ------- If that was the case, couldn't the Dhamma have become clouded over the centuries until people might justifiably have thought: "What was the Dhamma; what did the Buddha teach?" "He taught tooth-stick allocation. He taught the number of tooth sticks each of his followers was to have, the time of day they were to be given them, etc., etc." ---------- M: > > Of course the entire body of the teachings circles round and directs toward insight, no question in my mind. Everything in the texts not directly encouraging insight contributes to laying the groundwork for its cultivation (such as the structure of the sa"ngha, for example), as I see it. But that's a different thing from saying that every single word he ever spoke referred to insight either directly or indirectly. ... S: > OK, agreed. I don't think I've ever said the latter quite like that. ---------- Harrumph! Sarah is too easy on you. :-) I think K Sujin is quoted as having said: "The Buddha taught satipatthana, and every word of his teaching is to be understood in terms of satipatthana." As I understand it, that means that even the Buddha's most mundane-sounding utterances were to be understood in terms of conditioned dhammas. For example, when the Buddha advised [some of] his monks to practise jhana, they were to understand jhana as a conditioned dhamma. When he told jhana meditators to occasionally walk up and down a path in order to get healthy exercise they were to understand 'volition to walk' (etc) as a conditioned dhamma - something over which there was no real control. Ken H #98686 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking scottduncan2 Dear Ken, Mike (and Sarah), Regarding: K: "If that was the case, couldn't the Dhamma have become clouded over the centuries until people might justifiably have thought: 'What was the Dhamma; what did the Buddha teach?' 'He taught tooth-stick allocation. He taught the number of tooth sticks each of his followers was to have, the time of day they were to be given them, etc., etc...'Harrumph! Sarah is too easy on you. :-) I think K Sujin is quoted as having said: 'The Buddha taught satipatthana, and every word of his teaching is to be understood in terms of satipatthana.' "As I understand it, that means that even the Buddha's most mundane-sounding utterances were to be understood in terms of conditioned dhammas. For example, when the Buddha advised [some of] his monks to practise jhana, they were to understand jhana as a conditioned dhamma. When he told jhana meditators to occasionally walk up and down a path in order to get healthy exercise they were to understand 'volition to walk' (etc) as a conditioned dhamma - something over which there was no real control." Scott: A distinct advantage to (hopefully) not having to begin again to revisit the tiresome, pointless, and regressive discussions between 'meditators' and 'non-meditators' is that we who are more or less on the same page can begin to fine-tune some of our consideration of the Dhamma. I see this discussion about conventional discourse and thinking to be such a discussion, and a welcome shift in evolution of the list. I'm not sure, but I would think that, knowing the wide range of habits and proclivities found in any large group of men, some of the monks likely required literal instructions about toothpicks - and more. I think, Ken, that you might be a bit dogmatic in your application of 'every word of the Buddha's teaching is to be understood in terms of satipa.t.thaana.' Are you suggesting that the instruction to use toothpicks was literally an instruction to practice satipa.a.thaana? I don't see it, myself. It seems more reasonable to suggest that those with developed sati might find any particular aspect of daily life and personal hygiene to offer a chance for satipa.t.thaana to arise. And this would be due to satipa.t.thaana having been taught on many occassions, not necessarily always taught in each and every utterance; and to the fact that satipa.t.thaana is a truth only a Buddha can teach. I'd say that in any activity it is possible, given conditions etc., for satipa.t.thaana to arise. I say this because satipa.t.thaana cannot be ordered up and cannot arise because one uses the right number of toothpicks in a day (as you suggest above). Many *have* become clouded over the centuries and cannot comprehend the Dhamma. Its what happens over time. Those who get into what we three essentially agree with seem few these days. There are many who are as you describe above. I vote to take care not to become overly dogmatic. Sincerely, Scott. #98687 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cetanaa, intention. was: To Rob Ep. Part 1. kenhowardau Hi Nina, This is a very nice explanation, thanks: ------ <. . .> N: > When destroying the body that is constituted by ruupas (including the life faculty ruupa), there is akusala cetanaa or kamma. It has to be known that there is what we call a living being, the consciousness of there being a living creature, the intention to kill, effort in doing so and death as a consequence. The Atthasaalini (Expositor, p. 128): Anymore doubt? ------------- No doubts about that explanation, thank you. :-) --------------------------- N: > Is this dilemma similar to the one on daana you raised at K.K.? --------------------------- Yes, but even then I didn't consider myself to have doubts. I simply had a complete mental block. When I asked K Sujin about 'the reality of dana' I was expecting a cosy chat about namas performing functions, some of which could be identified as dana. But her answer was, "There has to be an act of dana," and that left me lost for words - unable even to think of a question! If I had asked her about killing and the jiivitindriya etc, would she have said there had to be an act of killing? If so, I would have had another of my mental blocks. (Would you believe my parents wanted me to be a barrister?) :-) Ken H #98688 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:24 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) kenhowardau Hi Alex, Thanks for responding to my message to Suan. I am sorry for misrepresenting your views on Mahayana. I think I was confusing you with a certain other meditation exponent (whose name I won't mention). --------- KH: > >Sometimes he thinks the Buddha believed in a self, A: > Buddha taught Anatta. --------- Yes, but even some famous bhikkhus (such as Ven Thanissaro) believe anatta does not mean no self. They say it is just a "non-self" strategy for meditation. As I recall, you have sometimes been a Thanissaro supporter, sometimes not. ---------------- <. . .> A: > My style of meditation is to let go, stop controlling, let the impersonal mind process develop in letting go rather than holding and accumulating. ----------------- I am well aware of the kind of meditation you practice. There was a time (lasting about 26 years) when I regarded myself as a meditator too. All that is over for me now (now that I have heard the Abhidhamma). Basically, your practice follows from seeing the Dhamma as a set of instructions. According to my understanding, however, practice (bhavana) is simply any right understanding that might arise now - by conditions. -------------- <. . .> A: > Of course it is a set of instructions, to condition the mind to let go and naturally develop relinquishment and achieve total extinction, PariNibbana when the causes are right. ---------------- I hope Suan will read this, and your other post on meditation. I think there might be quite a lot that he will agree with, and quite a lot he will disagree with. One thing he cannot deny is that none of these instructions for formal meditation can be found in the ancient Pali texts. Anyway, thanks again for coming back to set the record straight. I hope you will stick around. As you have said, you have done your best to convert DSG's non-meditators. We appreciate the effort. Ken H > Some people here have quite unorthodox beliefs. > This creates so much pain for the teaching, that I have recently simply ignored this. I can't get myself awakened, (anatta, remember?) so why bother with trying to enlighten others (until the causes & conditions are right for my own, a much easier task, awakening). > #98689 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:13 pm Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Tokyo, 1 March 1971 Dear Mr. G., What is sati-sampajaa, clear comprehension? I am puzzled by this term. This was a question you asked me. There are many degrees of comprehension. What would clear comprehension mean, theoretical knowledge or the knowledge through ones own experience? Which would be clearer? Does the sotpanna have clear comprehension of nmas and rpas, of the world in the ariyan sense? Is the degree of clear comprehension of the arahat still higher? What is the way to develop clear comprehension, is it through thinking about realities or through awareness of them when they present themselves? Would awareness of realities not be the way that comprehension becomes clearer in different stages? The term sati-sampajaa is composed of the word sati, mindfulness or awareness, and the word sampajaa which means discrimination or comprehension. The commentary to the Dialogues of the Buddha (Dgha Nikya), the Sumangalavilsin, explains that there is a fourfold sampajaa. These aspects make it clear that there are different levels of sati-sampajaa. They are the following kinds of sati- sampajaa: 1. stthaka-sampajaa comprehension with regard to the purpose 2. sappya-sampajaa... comprehension of what is suitable, fitting 3. gocara-sampajaa... comprehension of the object 4. asammoha-sampajaa... comprehension of non-delusion Stthaka-sampajaa, comprehension with regard to the purpose, pertains to our bodily health as well as to the growth of kusala and understanding. The Buddha was considerate of the monks bodily and mental welfare. The monk was taught to have comprehension of the purpose with regard to the taking of almsfood and the use of the other requisites. There are rules for the monks with regard to the use of them. He should not use them with attachment. We read in the Visuddhimagga (I, 85) about the way he should use almsfood: Reflecting wisely, he uses almsfood neither for amusement nor for intoxication nor for smartening nor for embellishment, but only for the endurance and continuance of this body, for the ending of discomfort, and for assisting the life of purity: Thus I shall put a stop to old feelings and shall not arouse new feelings, and I shall be healthy and blameless and live in comfort. --------- Nina. #98690 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > I think K Sujin is quoted as > having said: "The Buddha taught satipatthana, and every word of his > teaching is to be understood in terms of satipatthana." > Dear Ken I think this quote you give is misleading. I have cited sections of the tipitaka to Khun Sujin where she says that this is not directly about satipatthana . One I cited was the sutta to sigala and the section where the buddha recommended not a. sauntering in streets at unseemly hours;and (b) frequenting theatrical shows; (c) indulgence in gambling which causes heedlessness. She said if people are not yet ready for satipatthana then the Buddha would teach in in way that prepared them for later insight. what Sujin is saying is that the Buddha's teaching is all about satipatthana/anatta or preparing the soil for satipatthana, but she doesn't claim every word in the tipitaka is a direct teaching of satipatthana. Robert #98691 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:50 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? (was,.) - meditation/reading rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > When you sit down and close your eyes, you are temporarily relinquishing sights. >> >Reading as a path to awakening is similiar to Hindu Beliefs (ex: >Jnana Yoga) while deep and proper meditation is exclusively Buddhist. > Don't have a Self view. Meditate! ++++++++ Dear Alex, has anyone ever said that reading is a path to awakening? Anyway I think you are more widely read than most of us, could you comment on this sutta: From the digha nikaya QUOTE Digha nikaya Sangiti sutta "The vimuttayatanam The 5 bases of deliverance: XXV. "Five bases of deliverance; here a. the teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk Dhamma. And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and from this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established [he attains nibbana]; b. he has not heard it thus, but in the course of the teaching Dhamma to others he has learnt it by heart as he has heard it, or c. as he is chanting the Dhamma... [he attains nibbana]or d. ...when he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders over it and concentrates his attention on it; [he attains nibbana] e. When he has properly grasped some concentration sign, has well considered it, applied his mind to it, and has well penetrated it with wisdom. At this, joy arises in him; and from this joy, delight, and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established.end sutta What do you think of a. b. c. and d., and are they the same as your path of sitting and closing your eyes? Robert #98692 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:21 am Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? ( - meditate: close your eyes. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > Proper meditation is about non-doing, disengaging self-views and relinquishing attachments. > > When you sit down and close your eyes, you are temporarily relinquishing sights. > Don't have a Self view. Meditate! ++++++++ dear Alex what do you think about this sutta and how does that fit with closing ones eyes?: SalayatanasamyuttaFull Understanding Translated by by Bhikku Bodhi p1141 Connected Discourses ""Bhikkhus without directly knowing and fully understanding the eye, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. Without directly knowing and and fully understanding forms (rupayatana)..EYE-Consciousness (cakkhu-vinnana)..and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition...one is incapable of destroying suffering..""end quote Robert #98693 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking kenhowardau Hi Scott, ----------- <. . .> S: > . . . A distinct advantage to (hopefully) not having to begin again to revisit the tiresome, pointless, and regressive discussions between 'meditators' and 'non-meditators' ------------ Hey, you are talking about my daily life! :-) Seriously, I feel deeply indebted to all DSG members who disagree with me. They give me an a special kind of opportunity (to consider more deeply) that I might not get from other, more like-minded, members. But I agree with your main point: if like-minded members can find minor differences to thrash out then that is a good opportunity too. --------------------- S: > <. . .> I'm not sure, but I would think that, knowing the wide range of habits and proclivities found in any large group of men, some of the monks likely required literal instructions about toothpicks - and more. ----------------------- Yes, and I'll admit it was the Buddha who declared those minor rules. But remember, he did say that the monks themselves (had they asked) could have been given that responsibility. So the minor rules were not part of a teaching that was peculiar to a Buddha. They were not satipatthana. Whichever way we look at them, I would still say they were to be understood in terms of satipatthana. The Buddha said somewhere (sorry, no ref.) that anyone who saw conditioned dhammas saw him. Anyone who saw only his physical presence ("a mere bag of bones") didn't see him at all. Wouldn't the same apply to the vinaya? Anyone who saw just conventional activities didn't see the real rules at all? ------------ S: > I think, Ken, that you might be a bit dogmatic in your application of 'every word of the Buddha's teaching is to be understood in terms of satipa.t.thaana.' ------------- I have always been opinionated; that's my personality, I'm afraid. :-) But even opinionated people can be right sometimes. --------------------- S: > Are you suggesting that the instruction to use toothpicks was literally an instruction to practice satipa.a.thaana? I don't see it, myself. -------------------- I don't know much about the vinaya. However, I seem to remember someone at DSG explaining the whole reason for having rules. It was that monks who were not arahants could nevertheless behave in the manner of arahants. In that way they were able, to a degree, to preserve the Dhamma for future generations. Generations like ours don't have real arahants to learn from. But, thanks to the sangha, we can hear the written/memorised words of arahants, and we can see how arahants behaved. (I could have remembered that wrongly. I might even have imagined it.) --------------------------- S: > It seems more reasonable to suggest that those with developed sati might find any particular aspect of daily life and personal hygiene to offer a chance for satipa.t.thaana to arise. --------------------------- Or should you say: it seems more reasonable to suggest that people with right understanding would be naturally inclined to clean their teeth? And to not smack their lips while eating! That's another rule I like. :-) -------------------------------------- S: > And this would be due to satipa.t.thaana having been taught on many occassions, not necessarily always taught in each and every utterance; and to the fact that satipa.t.thaana is a truth only a Buddha can teach. --------------------------------------- Imagine, Scott, that you were in the presence of the Buddha. Wouldn't you hear every word he spoke in terms of satipatthana? Even if he was talking about cleaning teeth or sweeping leaves (etc), why would you waste a single moment by hearing his words in the same way you would hear them from anyone else? Instead of rejoicing in the profundity of anatta (no teeth, no teeth cleaner: no leaves, no leaf sweeper)! I feel sure you would still clean your teeth and sweep the leaves. --------------------- S: > I'd say that in any activity it is possible, given conditions etc., for satipa.t.thaana to arise. I say this because satipa.t.thaana cannot be ordered up and cannot arise because one uses the right number of toothpicks in a day (as you suggest above). Many *have* become clouded over the centuries and cannot comprehend the Dhamma. Its what happens over time. Those who get into what we three essentially agree with seem few these days. There are many who are as you describe above. I vote to take care not to become overly dogmatic. ----------------------- OK, I will try not to be opinionated. I still think that every word the Buddha spoke should be understood in terms of satipatthana, but I can see that there are good arguments on your side too. Ken H #98694 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:01 pm Subject: Nobody home: Empty village! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Neither Agent nor Actor, but only Impersonal Processes! Question: Who is the Creator? Answer: Nobody is the Creator of anything! Q: What then, is creating? A: Ignorance and Craving is creating! Q: What is ignorance & craving creating? A: Ignorance & craving creates Suffering! Question: Who Perceives? Answer: Nobody perceives anything! Q: What then, is perceiving? A: The Perception process itself perceives! Q: What does perception perceive? A: Form, sound, smell, taste, touch and ideas! Question: Who Feels? Answer: Nobody Feels anything! Q: What then, is feeling? A: The process of Feeling itself feels! Q: What do Feeling feel? A: Feeling feels pleasure, pain and indifference! Question: Who is the Knower? Answer: Nobody is the Knower of anything! Q: What then, is Knowing? A: The state of Knowledge itself knows! Q: What is knowledge knowing? A: Knowledge knows: Such is Pain, Such is the Cause of Pain, Such is the End of Pain, & Such is the Way to End all Pain! This core Buddhist doctrine of Anatta means: There is no 'Self' in here... There is no 'Substance' out there... Impersonal & void are all states & phenomena! Ownerlessness is a universal characteristic of being! Unsubstantiality is a universal characteristic of matter! No-Self = Impersonality! For more on this universality of selfless impersonality (anatta) see: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/I-dentification.htm ... No-Substance = Unsubstantiality! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Nobody home: Empty village! #98695 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Be here now scottduncan2 Dear Sarah and Mike, Regarding: S: "Yes, with any 'conventional activities', it all comes down to the citta and the view at the time and I'm sure these are as mixed for most of us whilst circumnambulating stupas as at other times. There are likely, of course, to be many opportunities for reflection on the Triple Gem, opportunities for sati, pa~n~naa and saddhaa, opportunities for consideration for and appreciation of others good deeds, but also the opposite as you suggest. It always comes back to the citta and views at the time." Scott: I suppose it will be important to differentiate between a suggestion to engage in conventional activities and that thing that modern 'buddhists' call 'practice' today. And it probably depends on many factors that someone might think of the admonishments quoted in the textual references as actual instructions designed to lead in a linear fashion to some sort of attainment. But isn't this how self enters in? And what's wrong with having a theoretical knowledge that knows that there never is self and finding that this leads to thinking about these sort of 'instructions' differently? S: "...16. "There are four places, Ananda, that a pious person should visit and look upon with feelings of reverence...22. And whoever, Ananda, should die on such a pilgrimage with his heart established in faith, at the breaking up of the body, after death, will be reborn in a realm of heavenly happiness." Scott: The Paa.li: Cattaarimaani, aananda, saddhassa kulaputtassa dassaniiyaani sa.mvejaniiyaani .thaanaani. Katamaani cattaari? 'Idha tathaagato jaato'ti, aananda, saddhassa kulaputtassa dassaniiya.m sa.mvejaniiya.m .thaana.m. 'Idha tathaagato anuttara.m sammaasambodhi.m abhisambuddho'ti, aananda, saddhassa kulaputtassa dassaniiya.m sa.mvejaniiya.m .thaana.m. 'Idha tathaagatena anuttara.m dhammacakka.m pavattita'nti, aananda, saddhassa kulaputtassa dassaniiya.m sa.mvejaniiya.m .thaana.m. 'Idha tathaagato anupaadisesaaya nibbaanadhaatuyaa parinibbuto'ti, aananda, saddhassa kulaputtassa dassaniiya.m sa.mvejaniiya.m .thaana.m. Imaani kho , aananda, cattaari saddhassa kulaputtassa dassaniiyaani sa.mvejaniiyaani .thaanaani. Aagamissanti kho, aananda, saddhaa bhikkhuu bhikkhuniyo upaasakaa upaasikaayo " 'idha tathaagato jaato'tipi, 'idha tathaagato anuttara.m sammaasambodhi.m abhisambuddho'tipi, 'idha tathaagatena anuttara.m dhammacakka.m pavattita'ntipi, 'idha tathaagato anupaadisesaaya nibbaanadhaatuyaa parinibbuto'tipi. Ye hi keci, aananda, cetiyacaarika.m aahi.n.dantaa pasannacittaa kaala"nkarissanti, sabbe te kaayassa bhedaa para.m mara.naa sugati.m sagga.m loka.m upapajjissantii''ti. S: "A commentary quote from the PTS 'The Buddha's Last Days', p.153: "In the text, 'by one who has faith [pasaada]'...'Those which should cause religious feeling [sa.mvega]': Those which produce awe. 'Places': either occasions or places in the sense of locations. 'Whoever indeed': this is said to show that visiting shrines generates benefits...He shows that if people set out with the intention of worshipping a shrine at a certain monastery, even if they should die with thoughts of tranquil faith, they will surely reach heaven without impediment." Scott: I think that being in these places *can* be condition for the dhammaa which make up sa.mvega, and it seems that the presence of sadhaa is condition for the arising of the 'sa.mvega complex'. I'd like to learn more of the sense in which 'should' is to be understood in this context ('...should visit...'). Also, it seems that the fortunate birth is not predicated on having died in mid-stuupa circumambulation, but on the nature of the developed dhammaa at the time of death. Going to these places, I imagine, would have me considering the Dhamma. I'm considering it right now, though. What's the difference, I wonder? Sincerely, Scott. #98696 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Be here now nilovg Dear Scott, Op 25-jun-2009, om 14:08 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > There are four places, Ananda, that a pious person should visit and > look upon with feelings of reverence...22. And whoever, Ananda, > should die on such a pilgrimage with his heart established in > faith, at the breaking up of the body, after death, will be reborn > in a realm of heavenly happiness." > > Scott: The Paa.li: > > Cattaarimaani, aananda, saddhassa kulaputtassa dassaniiyaani > sa.mvejaniiyaani .thaanaani. ------- N: Dassaniiyaani: are to be seen, the 'should' is no command. Warder, Ch 16, future passive participle. Kamaniiya: to be loved; lovely, dassaniiya, what must be seen, lovely. It is the same as in the case of -abba: sevitabba: not necessarily should be followed, but: can be followed. Remember the attachment that is sevitabba we discussed before. It is the case of someone who will be an arahat and can still have attachment to this attainment in the future. ------ S: Going to these places, I imagine, would have me considering the Dhamma. I'm considering it right now, though. What's the difference, I wonder? ----- N: It is dependent on kamma that we have the opportunity to be right there. We can pay respect at those places and, as you say, consider and discuss Dhamma. It is entirely dependent on conditions where we will be and how we react. We just 'follow' conditions. No need to wonder about the difference being here or there. Nina. #98697 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:44 am Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) abhidhammika Hello Alex, Ken, Chris F, Howard, Robert K, Robert E, Sarah, Jon How are you? Alex wrote: " Of course it is a set of instructions, to condition the mind to let go and naturally develop relinquishment and achieve total extinction, PariNibbana when the causes are right." Suan applauded Alex: Saadhu, Saadhu, Saadhu, Alex! What you wrote was exactly in line with the Buddha's Theravada teachings. And, what you wrote about formal meditation was also excellent. Only the persons who can genuinely relinquish things can undertake formal Buddhist meditation and eventually upgrade it to intensive meditation practice. You have practiced the Right Speech. That is good. Please keep up the good work. By contrast, Ken wrote: "Basically, your practice follows from seeing the Dhamma as a set of instructions. According to my understanding, however, practice (bhavana) is simply any right understanding that might arise now - by conditions." Suan censured Ken and disapproved his wrong speech: Ken, you should not use the expression 'by conditions' as an easy escape mantra - without specifying which conditions you meant - in order to justify the equating of right understanding to practice (bhavanaa). You also need to explain what you meant by 'right understanding'. Do you mean Sammaadi.t.thi? If so, do you mean Sammadi.t.thi at the level of awakening? Or do you mean Samaadi.t.thi at the level prior to awakening (pubbabhaaga)? Ken also wrote: "I hope Suan will read this, and your other post on meditation. .One thing he cannot deny is that none of these instructions for formal meditation can be found in the ancient Pali texts." Suan replied: Ken, I always stressed that Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam is an instruction manual for formal Buddhist meditation. You should read again my post(s) to Jon. I even said that Jon, like K Sujin and other KS Folks including you misunderstood Satipa.t.thaana Suttam. In fact, K Sujin and Sarah even misunderstood the term `sati'. Please read my post(s) to Sarah. Ken, the fact that you misunderstood Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam has been shown in this very post of yours by accusing me of not denying "that none of these instructions for formal meditation can be found in the ancient Pali texts." And, you seemed to forget the very thread "Description or doctrine/instruction?" under which we have been arguing about this issue. Bhikkhu Bodhi also wrote the opening sentence in his Message (Preface) To The Way of Mindfulness By Soma Thera as follows: "The Satipatthana Sutta, the Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness, is generally regarded as the canonical Buddhist text with the fullest instructions on the system of meditation unique to the Buddha's own dispensation." Please pay attention to Bhikhu Bodhi's use of the expression `the fullest instructions' referring to Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam. Best Wishes Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #98698 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Be here now scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: Cattaarimaani, aananda, saddhassa kulaputtassa dassaniiyaani sa.mvejaniiyaani .thaanaani. N: "Dassaniiyaani: are to be seen, the 'should' is no command. Warder, Ch 16, future passive participle. Kamaniiya: to be loved; lovely, dassaniiya, what must be seen, lovely. It is the same as in the case of -abba: sevitabba: not necessarily should be followed, but: can be followed. Remember the attachment that is sevitabba we discussed before. It is the case of someone who will be an arahat and can still have attachment to this attainment in the future." Scott: Yes, I do recall the former discussion, and was wondering if this was a similar case. Thank you. 'Are to be seen' and 'can follow' - these ways of saying things maintains the focus on impersonal conditionality, and has a neutral sort of aspect. In the case of the future arahat, his or her attachment to this future attainment would still only be attachment - it could not condition the attainment were it to be with self - 'I want to attain' or 'I will attain. N: "It is dependent on kamma that we have the opportunity to be right there. We can pay respect at those places and, as you say, consider and discuss Dhamma. It is entirely dependent on conditions where we will be and how we react. We just 'follow' conditions. No need to wonder about the difference being here or there." Scott: True as well - entirely dependent on conditions. I was not forgetting this when I wondered about the two different places and the dhammaa which could arise. One could, for example, find one's self in one of these recommended places, and find no dhammaa arising which reflect on the Buddha or the Dhamma. Likely many tourists do not. Nor would the going to one of these places with the express purpose of causing sa.mvega to arise be enough. I often think of someone trying to act or talk like a 'buddhist' in cases such as this. It is never enough. Sincerely, Scott. #98699 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:24 am Subject: Some thoughts about life and all truth_aerator Hello all, some thoughts. "One of Ajaan Mun's favorite topics for a Dhamma talk was the theme of practicing the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma in other words, in accordance with what the Dhamma demands, not in accordance with what our likes and dislikes demand. As the Dhamma comes to the West this is probably one of the hardest things for Westerners to appreciate. Everywhere you look, the Dhamma is being remade, recast, so that people will like it [alex: including trying to fit it with secular over intellectual lay life of 21st century American]. Things that people don't like are quietly cut away [alex: like "take it easy" , "dont do anything" , "no need to renounce anything" , "arahant while cooking." etc etc]; and if things that people like are missing, they're added on. And so the creature that comes out is like the old cartoon of a committee designing a bird: The bird looks pretty good to begin with, but then after the committee's done with it, it looks like an ostrich with no legs. It can't walk and it can't fly, but it sells. In this country of ours, where democracy and the marketplace are all-powerful, the question of what sells determines what's Dhamma, even if it can't walk or fly. And who loses out? We lose out. The Dhamma doesn't lose out; it's always what it is. But we like to add a little here, take away a little there, and as a result we end up with nothing but things we already like and already dislike." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tml#beyond Reality is what it is and it is not what it is not (it is not ultimately beautiful, constant, self) - at it generally doesn't show its delusion for us. Things have to be done. Arhatship while cooking is a myth, for today at least. Life itself doesn't start nice and clean. The baby is located in a disgusting, filthy, smelly receptacle surround by excrement, urine, digested and undigested food. It doesn't get much better later, either and at the end it goes to the worms, the empires crumble to dust and memories long forgotten. In some cases some people finish as they have started... The babies soil themselves and so do some sick elderly dying patients who are unable to clean after themselves. Nothing desirable here! Life affirming is not always "pleasure affirming". The life has a dark side most of us choose to ignore and avoid looking at. I don't want this to sound like pessimism, this is just taking a peak at the other side of the coin. Too much optimism isn't always good. If people were more cautious about "great expectations" then many stock market bubbles, real estate bubbles (hey, the value is always going to go up!), and so on, would not happen. Billions would not be lost to Bernie Madoff shark. Disgraced money managers who were caught in his scheme would not suffer the consequences and money of greedy optimistic people would not be flushed down the toilet. The varied sensual pleasures that one can be exposed to, often feel better than subsequent pleasures of the same degree. For example: going from 0$ to a million$ in your bank account feels much better than earning 2 million in a 100 million bank account. But losing 100 millions is more than losing 1 million... The more money one has, the more one will eventually most determinately lose. Also the more money one has, the more relatives appear to take them off you and the more people try to sue you. It is just a matter of time. Like recreational drugs for which the organism develops tolerance and have to be taken in larger and larger quantities just to feel the same high, the same with sensual pleasures. They are addictive and one develops more and more tolerance as one gets them more and more. So one has to constantly get more and more of them for the same feel. Like a salty water that one drinks to relieve the feeling of thirst, causes on to thirst more, the same is with sensual pleasures. But the more sensual desires one follows, the more drawbacks and more potential sufferings are there while the gratification diminishes as the tolerance grows. If life/existence was only good and pleasant, then nobody would ever have serious suicidal ideations, euthanasia would not exist, and people would not commit suicide! But because life can be brutal and unbearable at times (for most beings), (and most of the time it is just dull and boring), people can commit suicide or hurt others. The Buddha has wisely said: Mara asked the Buddha: "How, O Blessed One, can your disciple One delighting in the Teaching, A trainee (stream enter or higher!) seeking his mind's ideal Take his own life, O widely famed?" Buddha: "Such indeed is how the steadfast act: They are not in love with life." Metta.lk translation: "...The wise do this sort of thing, do not fall back to live..." SN 4.23 Godhika Sutta --- "When one lays down this body and takes another body, then I say one is blameworthy. This did not happen in the case of Bhikkhu Channa. The Bhikkhu Channa used the knife [commited suicide!] blamelessly." MN144, SN 35.87 (4) Channa Sutta Is existence by itself exciting by default? Do this thought experiment. Suppose you were locked in a totally bland, sound insulated white room (a sensory deprivation tank) with no windows and no way out. You are fed bland food & water, just enough to maintain life but not to excite the taste buds. Very quickly you are going to get bored, and maybe depressed as well. Existence will not be exciting, it will be dull and boring. This shows that ordinary people need events (even slightly negative ones) and sensory things happening to feel 'well' . If life, existence, was good all by itself, then why would it need to be 'spiced up' (so to avoid bone crunching boredom)? Another experiment. Try to lie on the bed for as much as possible in a sitting session. After enough time (it could be 12 or more hours) you will feel discomfort, even from resting! You will be in discomfort and will have to move to relieve the discomfort. Similiar, but on a shorter scale is the experiment about sitting without moving in a chair. Very quickly you will be in discomfort and will have to move to relieve the discomfort. How long can you sit without moving? These things show us that we constantly have to change some sense stimuli or to change the posture or to change something in order to avoid pain and discomfort. The pain is built into the fabric of existence and ordinary people try to relieve it through change of the body, pleasant feelings and extra stimulation. Is existence so desirable if it has to be so spiced & propped up with sense pleasures so as to keep it from being dull, boring and in some cases outright unbearable? Let us look at the Body. What is body's natural state? Is it all rosy and desirable? At a superficial glance, that girl may look very pretty, maybe even the Playboy material. But imagine if she removes all the makeup and all the scents, stops shaving, stops conditioning the hair, stops cutting nails and brushing teeth, stops washing and wiping herself, stops following a proper diet. Very quickly any body will look ugly smelly and so on. This is a state which we try to avoid. We artificially "take care" of the body because otherwise it would become repulsive and not that pretty. Furthermore, while we may eat together, the act of evacuation & urinination is done in private and its sights, smells and sounds are concealed and wiped off. Any one of us have excrement and urine. These things are not beautiful in and of themselves and a person needs to hide before one can expel these things. Just see how much beauty there will be if even a drop of your own bodily contents falls on the food you are about to eat... If your own excrement & urine is disgusting, then nothing to say about someone elses. There is nothing inherently pleasurable about someone's kidneys, skin or flesh. Is there much attraction to slabs of meat in the store? That meat is in all of us covered by skin, and life affirming delusions and stories about how the body is a beautiful thing... The body has to be constantly beautified and kept clean... It contains many things that we try our best to overlook and ignore: "'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.'" These things are not beautiful in and of themselves! "The body is so near, yet like an unexplored continent. Large areas in it are a blank. While this is so, greed, lust and craving dwell safely in the jungles of ignorance." ""...no one who searches earnestly throughout the whole of this fathom-long carcass, starting from the soles of the feet upwards, starting from the top of the hair downwards, and starting from the skin all round, ever sees even the minutest atom of pureness in it such as a pearl or a crystal or a beryl or aloes or sandalwood or saffron or camphor or talcum powder, etc; on the contrary, he sees nothing but various very malodorous offensive drab-looking sorts of impurity consisting of head-hair, body-hairs, and the rest." M.R., iii, 4, trans. Ven. Nanamoli "Now this body that has material form consists of the four great elements, it is procreated by a mother and father, and built up out of boiled rice and bread, it has the nature of impermanence, of being worn and rubbed away, of dissolution and disintegration. It must be regarded as impermanent as (liable to) suffering, as a disease as a cancer, as a dart as a calamity, as an affliction as alien, as a falling to pieces as void, as without a self. "When a man regards it thus, he abandons his desire for the body, affection for the body, and his habit of treating the body as a basis for his inferences." M. 74, trans. Ven. Nanamoli Some may say that this is going to far here. However, considering how much we were brainwashed by the media to view the body as "beautiful", that a very strong antidote is needed. Before one can set up equanimity and total inner peace, lust needs to be removed - not simply 'masked'. The stronger the lust, the stronger the careful unbeauty practice is required. During a period of successful meditations it is very easy to overestimate one's progress and think that lust was pacified. Often it just lies latent, ready to spring up with first good opportunity - so a strong reflection on repulsiveness is required. -Exciting things/events almost always happen only in the movies. The evil that actors do is trying to convince us that life can be exciting and fantastic. But the dull and dreary day to day reality of is no movie for most of us, and for most of the time. There is laundry to do and dishes to clean, and not to mention the disgusting excrements to wipe off oneself in secrecy where nobody can witness the humiliation and shame we all have to endure as living human beings wonderfully designed to be full of excrement and urine after we eat and before we excrete. Even if you are some good looking celebrity, even then the day to day reality is not always all that nice and just like us, the excrement has to be wiped. Even the most famous, successful and beautiful people have troubles that come with life. why did many highly successful people end up overdosing on drugs and dying? Why do many celebrities of today so unhappy despite "having it all"? Maybe because even the stardom is not all the exciting. If life was so good as they say, why do even highly successful (in worldly) sense people are so miserable and in some case even commit suicide? If life is "so good" why do we keep trying to forget the real world when watching the movies, doing drugs, drinking, whatever? Love is just a beautiful word for lustfool hormones and body's natural impulses to procreate its genes. We all love ourselves, and when we say "I love you" it is simply the love of the pleasant feeling that others give to us. The beautiful body of ours and them are not that good either. Body is impermanent subject to aging, sickness and death. Every second it is one step closer to the inevitable of being a lunch for the worms or cremated to ashes. Even the great empires crumble to ashes and dust, nothing to say about this little and insignificant body and whatever belongs to it. Any one of us have excrement and urine. These things are not beautiful in and of themselves and a person needs to hide before one can expel these things. Just see how much beauty there will be if even a drop of your own bodily contents falls on the food you are about to eat... If your own excrement & urine is disgusting, then nothing to say about someone else's. There is nothing inherently pleasurable about someone's kidneys, skin or flesh. Is there much attraction to slabs of meat in the store? That meat is in all of us covered by skin, and life affirming delusions and stories about how the body is a beautiful thing... When there is body then there can be problems with the body. Body can get raped, tortured, mutilated, and sick, it can experience a lot of diverse pain, misery and suffering and be beaten like a punching bag from all sides. It can catch many different kinds of viruses, plagues and so on that could leave a lot of really miserable and painful feelings to the moment of death. Modern viruses are getting more and more hellish. One can get sick with a flesh eating virus, and other scary diseases. Having these miserable and dreadful possibilities possible, is this all that pleasant and happy? It is far better to never be born at all, then to be born. And if one is born, it is better that one dies as soon as possible and never re-arise anywhere for life/existence is a necessary condition for possible misery, hurt, pain, torture, humiliation, dispair and so on. No life = no possibility for misery, no hurt, no pain, no torture, no humiliation, no dispair and so on Count o'er the joys thine hours have seen, Count o'er thy days from anguish free, And know, whatever thou hast been, 'Tis something better not to be " - Baron, Euthanasia 9 (?) If I just could choose it, I would not want to exist in any shape or form anywhere at anytime... But some things do not go as wished... To be fair, there most certainly are pleasant feelings, but any high has two lows, one on each sides. Any high wave has two troughs. It is structurally impossible to have high without the low. These are two sides of the same miserable coin, miserable because it is impossible to fully control feelings. One cannot will "let me experience ONLY the pleasant feelings and never experience the painful feelings. Let my body always be healthy, beautiful, and stay young forever and ever." These things cannot be controlled and the terrible part is that often we have no say "let me experience only a little bit of pain and lots of pleasure". Very often we suffer, suffer badly, due to natural cause & effect laws. One may have a good party on a friday night after a long hard week at forced labour camp called "work", only to end up with a hangover on saturday morning which one spends at the toilet vomiting the booze from last night's party. Are you like Wilt Chamberlain or Don Juan with the ladies? You better be prepared for the possibility of getting AIDS, syphylis or some other nasty STD. At the very least you will have someone's filthy stinking urine or excrement on your bald headed warrior and a much lighter wallet. Keep a close eye on it and you better have your hand in you wallet. I don't need sex, the existence screws [to use a polite word] and rapes me every day! It surely stuffs enough this filthy bag of bones, sinews, flesh and skin with urine and excrement. Shame on life that is so unsatisfactory, or as Buddha has said: "Shame on life here in this world!" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html In Girimananda Sutta the Buddha didn't teach candles & crystals 21st century new age teachings. He taught the DHAMMA with meditations like [3] "And what is the perception of unattractiveness? There is the case where a monk ponders this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin, filled with all sorts of unclean things: 'There is in this body: hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, muscle, tendons, bones, bone marrow, spleen, heart, liver, membranes, kidneys, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, gall, phlegm, lymph, blood, sweat, fat, tears, oil, saliva, mucus, oil in the joints, urine.' [4] "And what is the perception of drawbacks? There is the case where a monk having gone to the wilderness, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling reflects thus: 'This body has many pains, many drawbacks. In this body many kinds of disease arise, such as: seeing-diseases, hearing-diseases,nose-diseases, tongue-diseases, body-diseases, head-diseases, ear-diseases,mouth-diseases, teeth-diseases, cough, asthma, catarrh, fever, aging,stomach-ache, fainting, dysentery, grippe, cholera, leprosy, boils, ringworm, tuberculosis, epilepsy, skin-disease, itch, scab, psoriasis, scabies, jaundice,diabetes, hemorrhoids, fistulas, ulcers; diseases arising from bile, from phlegm, from the wind-property, from combinations of bodily humors, from changes in the weather, from uneven care of the body, from attacks, from the result of kamma; cold, heat, hunger, thirst, defecation, urination.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html We are like convicts on a death row, we will be executed no matter what happens. It is just the matter of time when the executioner called "Time" will execute us. What we can do is to make sure that this execution is final (Arhatship). "Execution" by the executioner called Impermanence & Death, only one more time, please! No more. The Buddha's teaching is the final and total Euthanasia of all suffering that we can believe in. Yes we can make all the suffering cease by cessation, relinquishment and extinction of all craving and the will to be/not-to-be. With best wishes, Alex #98700 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the perfections.was:To Rob Ep. Part 1. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 24-jun-2009, om 22:43 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: Just continue to listen, consider, ask questions, discuss, just > what we are doing now. > -------------------------------------------- > ;-)) Ah, I missed the sutta that said that posting such as we do on > DSG is the means to cultivate liberating wisdom! > ------------------------------------------ > N: When listening you hear things you did not hear before. Are you > not amazed about what you hear here? ;-)) --------- > N: Then there will be conditions for right > awareness and direct understanding which is different from > intellectual understanding. The objects are the same, but pa~n~naa > develops more. > ------------------------------------------- > H:So, thinking about the Dhamma and discussing it is "the ancient > road" > referred to in The City sutta? I don't think so. > --------------------------------------------- > N: The ancient road is the eightfold Path. How can right view of > the eightfold Path come about? By listening, considering, wise > attention. In the next sutta "Exploration', the Buddha exhorted to 'inward exploration' which is the discernment of conditions. The Buddha said: This phrase is stock and often repeated. They have to listen with all their attention. We should not overlook such phrases which occur so often. ---------- > N: Along with this the perfections are indispensable, they assist. > We do > not have to think, 'I must develop the perfections' then a self is > involved again. > -------------------------------------------- > H: How then do they develop? ------- N: There are conditions for them if we see the purpose: having less defilements, and absolutely not for our own gain. -------- > H: Are we back to what we do on DSG? Our > studies and discussions constitute the conditions for the perfections? -------- N: I should hope so. That is why I appreciate Lukas' questions so much. ------- > H: And, BTW, if a self is involved in thinking that intentional > actions > should be taken to develop the perfections, would it not also be > involved in > thinking that one should "Just continue to listen, consider, ask > questions, discuss, just what we are doing now"? ------ N: When we hear again and again that there are only dhammas, conditioned elements, it will lessen the idea of my intention to do this or that, or my listening to the Dhamma. But it is necessary to often hear: everyhting is dhamma, otherwise we forget. We are so hardheaded. Shall we replace the word intention by wish-to-do, chanda? We have to think of kusala chanda. It is also translated as zeal. It is a cetasika, not self. --------- H: > I am surprised that I am still amazed at there being no mention of > being intentionally attentive to what is happening at all times, of > actively > guarding the senses - resisting evil, letting go of already arisen > harmful > states, and encouraging wholesome states and furthering wholesome > states > already arisen, of reining in one's speech (which I need to be more > careful > about) and more generally intentionally refraining from harmful > actions, of > choosing a proper occupation, and of calming the mind through > meditation - > attaining the jhanas if possible. I find myself still amazed to see > only > study and discussion given as methodology, with all else following as > automatic consequence. I suppose, though, that it may be good that > this still > amazes me, for that may show an optimism on my part rather than a > foolishness. ------- N: I read this to Lodewijk after dinner, from my Cetasikas. This may answer your questions. But perhaps you are not satisfied. I do not mind even if you ask me these things a hundred times. I would like to encourage you to develop understanding of seeing, hearing, all realities of daily life. This will certainly influence one's actions and speech. ------- Quote from my Cetasikas: ***** Nina. #98701 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:43 am Subject: Re: Description or doctrine/instruction? (was,.) - meditation/reading truth_aerator Dear RobertK (and all interested) Thank you for an intelligent post --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > ++++++++ > Dear Alex, > has anyone ever said that reading is a path to awakening? > > Anyway I think you are more widely read than most of us, could you > comment on this sutta: > From the digha nikaya > QUOTE > Digha nikaya Sangiti sutta > "The vimuttayatanam The 5 bases of deliverance: > XXV. "Five bases of deliverance; here > > a. the teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk Dhamma. > And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit > and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and from > this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he > feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is > established [he attains nibbana]; > b. he has not heard it thus, but in the course of the teaching > Dhamma to others he has learnt it by heart as he has heard it, or > c. as he is chanting the Dhamma... [he attains nibbana]or > > d. ...when he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders > over it and concentrates his attention on it; [he attains nibbana] > > e. When he has properly grasped some concentration sign, has well > considered it, applied his mind to it, and has well penetrated it > with wisdom. At this, joy arises in him; and from this joy, delight, > and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a > result, and with this happiness his mind is established.end sutta > > What do you think of a. b. c. and d., and are they the same as your path of sitting and closing your eyes? > > Robert Please note that in the first 4 The pali goes: Tassa atthapa.tisa.mvedino dhammapa.tisa.mvedino paamojja.m jaayati, pamuditassa piiti jaayati, piitimanassa kaayo passambhati, passaddhakaayo sukha.m vedeti, sukhino citta.m samaadhiyati PTS 3.240 We have piti, we have sukha and citta samadhiyati. Jhana factors to me. samadhiyati = to be calmed or concentrated. NOTE "TO BE" Samadhi is present. Basically what it says is that from meritous activity you may gain happiness that helps you to reach Samadhi from which you will achieve awakening. Merit making IS IMPORTANT as a support for meditation. People who are very generous in real life and are used to giving up, will find it easier time to meditate (where one gives up greed anger & delusion) than non-generous - stingy folks. Generosity doesn't need to finish with Dana. It could be teaching the Dhamma. d. Reading and reflecting on Dhamma can make one to calm, feel happy, and HELP THE MEDITATION THAT FOLLOWS (...sukhino citta.m samaadhiyati) Samadhi is present in all of the above. Further points: As you are well aware of, there are different types of people. There are Ugghatitannu, Vipancitannu, Neyya and Padaparama induvidials. What works for some, may not work for others. Just because someone (Like Bahiya) "had so much accumulations" that a single paragraph of Dhamma (and at best few minutes of Practice) caused instant Arhatship - it doesn't follow that for US that applies or is relevant. Look, if we were the above two categories - we'd be Arahant by now. I don't know about you, Robert, but I ain't one of them. After reading 4.5 Nikayas, I am quite a bit from Arhatship and I can safely assume that I am not the highest two grades (U & V). With metta, Alex #98702 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:58 am Subject: Re: Description or doctrine/instruction? ( - meditate: close your eyes. truth_aerator Dear RobertK and all interested, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: dear Alex > what do you think about this sutta and how does that fit with closing ones eyes?: > > SalayatanasamyuttaFull Understanding Translated by by Bhikku Bodhi p1141 Connected Discourses > > ""Bhikkhus without directly knowing and fully understanding the eye, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. Without directly knowing and and fully understanding forms (rupayatana)..EYE-Consciousness (cakkhu-vinnana)..and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition...one is incapable of destroying suffering..""end quote > > Robert > The sutta quote above does NOT refute the need for concentration. Buddha couldn't mention everything in every sutta. Besides, his lessons were not spoken in vaccum. He had specific audience at specific points in their path. Not all monks needed more help with meditation which he taught earlier. Perhaps in this case, the meditative monks needed to hear that sermon. "The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.005.than.html ""I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities," http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html Jhana IS the path to awakening - MN36 Jhana Is what Buddha awakened to. AN9.42 & SN2.7 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.042.than.html Jhana Is Practiced by awakened ones: Dhp 23 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.02.than.html#dhp-23 Jhana Leads to 4 fruits: From Stream to Arhatship. (DN29) Jhana Is Right Concentration - SN 45.8 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html Ending of Mental Fermentations depend on Jhana - AN 9.36 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html Samadhi is proximate condition to "knowledge and vision of things as they really are" - SN12.23 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html Jhana is the only 4 Meditative absorptions thay Buddha praised. -MN108 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.108.than.html Jhana goes together with discernment (panna): Dhp 372 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.than.html#dhp-372 Jhana Is a mark of a great discernment, great man - AN4.35 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.035.than.html Jhana is the escape from confinement. AN 9.42 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.042.than.html Released through Panna (Pannavimutti) = Jhanas 1-9 AN 9.44 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html 7 Parts of Noble 8 Fold path are Support for Noble concentration (Jhana) - MN117 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html Thus, verily, monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the no-whither way. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo AN6.64 "Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.than.html The Buddha has recomended Jhana for trainees - MN107 It is *impossible* to break 5 lower and 5 upper fetters without Jhana (and insight after it). - MN64 Jhana + discernment is a single thing that can lead one to Arhatship - AN 11.17 MN Suttas that mention Jhana: 1,4, 6, 8, 13, 19, 35, 30, 31, 36, 38, 43, 45, 53, 53, 59, 64, 65, 66, 76, 77, 78, 79, 85, 106, 107, 108, 111, 112, 113, 119, 121, 128, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141,152 DN# 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,16,17,22, 19,26,27, 29, 31, 32 With metta, Alex #98703 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:00 pm Subject: Pop Mindfulness vs Buddhist mindfulness truth_aerator Dear RobertK and all interested, Some talk about "just be aware!" , "bare awareness" and "just be be mindful". But how would you respond, if lets say, you were a rich person who has hired a bodyguard and told him to "be mindful" . Then the rich guy is assaulted, robbed and mugged while the big and beefy bodyguard just watches mindfully and attentively. The rich guy screams "What the HELL! Didn't I tell you to be mindful?!" to which the bodyguard would respond: "But Mr., I was mindful! I observed how the bad guy ran up to you from behind. I kept uninterrupted attention on how he hit you with a wrench and took you wallet and raced away". What would you do? You'd fire this incompetent bodyguard. It is akin to how mindfulness (sati) is being taught today. Just mindful awareness of being raped by incoming defilements. Who needs this? Mindfulness should remember that whenever hindrance arises it only arises toward vinnana&namarupa. The hindrances are anicca,dukkha,anatta and the mind should not engage in sensual pleasures and other hindrances. When the mind forgets (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and it wonders in the wrong pasture, it must be reminded with Sati ASAP. The hindrances (especially sensual desire, ill will, restlessness, & doubt) are due to inappropriate attention, inappropriate doing of the deluded mind. Sati must remember to counteract this with vijja. "[1] "There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances? There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within, he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining hindrances: ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty.)" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html So even within anapanasati proper, there is a lot of wisdom and satipatthana involved. One must remember what is right attention and what is wrong attention and one must remember to disengage from improper attention as soon as it arises. Whenever a hindrance arises and remains - at that time it is lack of mindfulness. Mindfulness and hindrance cannot coexist if it is the right mindfulness vs "drop the soap in a prison shower" mindfulness. The hindrance doesn't arise from 0% to 100% in 2 moments. There are a lot of stages in between and if one's mindfulness is sharp it can remember (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and disengage, let go, renounce, and return to proper attention of the breath and whatever namarupa is that arises at that moment. With metta, Alex #98704 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking scottduncan2 Dear Ken H., Regarding: K: "Hey, you are talking about my daily life! :-) Seriously, I feel deeply indebted to all DSG members who disagree with me. They give me an a special kind of opportunity (to consider more deeply) that I might not get from other, more like-minded, members." Scott: While agreeing that considering an opposing view can allow for deeper contemplation of the Dhamma, I personally am opposed to the level of discourse such debates descend to. Even now, erupting elsewhere on the list, the jingoism and cheerleading has begun. I think that silence is the best response to all this - better than behaving in the same way. K: "...Imagine, Scott, that you were in the presence of the Buddha. Wouldn't you hear every word he spoke in terms of satipatthana? Even if he was talking about cleaning teeth or sweeping leaves (etc), why would you waste a single moment by hearing his words in the same way you would hear them from anyone else? Instead of rejoicing in the profundity of anatta (no teeth, no teeth cleaner: no leaves, no leaf sweeper)! I feel sure you would still clean your teeth and sweep the leaves." Scott: Its a compelling scenario, for sure. All I know is that I find it completely natural to accept what I accept and understand the Dhamma in the way that I do. And, at this point, find no compelling need to take sides or fight for one against the other. I don't find that such discourse improves things on the list, except maybe to inflate the number of posts made. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #98705 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Away - catch up soon! kenhowardau Hi Colette, Your acceptance of DSG rules is marvellous and admirable. You understand that there are millions of people in the world who have passionate beliefs and who have had experiences that would be very interesting to hear. However, life is short. We barely have time to hear the Theravada Dhamma we have chosen to study. And so DSG needs to have rules. And "a sausage grinder!" I loved that. :-) ------------ C: > No problems, I just couldn't miss the direct application to TIME & SPACE which I'm constantly having in my meditations i.e. every concept that a person could speak of deals with or has to deal with one or the other or even both, TIME & SPACE. ------------ When I was a meditator - and before that (when I occasionally smoked a little bit of pot) - I knew what it was like to have profound revelations. Absolutely profound! I wanted to share them with the world. Now, however, I prefer a more subdued kind of profound experience. I like to understand that the world (in all its apparent splendour) is really just a collection of silly little conditioned dhammas. Not worth any kind of attachment at all. ---------------------- <. . .> C: > So in Sarah's absense, what shall we discuss? I raised the issue of a very current and valuable concept called Time & Space which Sarah was kind enough to illude to before she hallucinatinated a "departure", a going and that she is the goer (nargarjuna) Although it's a Mahayana practice the concept of Longde and Semde seem very applicable. Any thoughts? ----------------------- Sarah certainly hallucinated a departure. Because ultimately, the only real departure is the one that is taking place right now. Conditioned dhammas, having arisen and performed their functions, are falling away - departing forever. If we don't cling to them then that is good. They are not worth clinging to. Ken H #98706 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:18 pm Subject: To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) kenhowardau Hi Lukas, I have been enjoying your posts very much. Sorry, by the way, for misspelling your name on two occasions: I know it is with a k but my fingers think c. :-) ---------- KH: > > In his Be Here Now talk, Ven Dhammadharo spoke about intention. I liked > everything he said about it, of course, but I couldn't quite tell when > he was referring to the concept of intention, and when he was referring > to cetana (or even chanda). L: > we think about concept all the time, so we talk about concepts. I like Ajahn saying: That is clear when there is ~nana, and if ther is no ~nana nothing is clear. ---------- I think I know what you mean. Until the teaching has been fully penetrated we can only think about absolute reality and the four noble truths; we can't know them. Ken H #98707 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:19 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > > > > Hello Alex, Ken, Chris F, Howard, Robert K, Robert E, Sarah, Jon > > > > How are you? > > > > Alex wrote: > > > > " Of course it is a set of instructions, to condition the mind to let > go and naturally develop relinquishment and achieve total extinction, > PariNibbana when the causes are right." > > > > Suan applauded Alex: > ------------- Hi Suan, Why did you applaud Alex? The Buddha taught anatta (no self) and yet Alex has interpreted satipatthana in exactly the same way he would have interpreted it if the Buddha had *not* taught anatta. So Alex has done something that should not be applauded. He has chosen to ignore Buddha's teaching of anatta because he found it too difficult to understand. There is no self that can practice (do anything in ultimate reality). Understand it or not, that is what the Buddha taught. ------------------------ S: > Saadhu, Saadhu, Saadhu, Alex! What you wrote was exactly in line with the Buddha's Theravada teachings. And, what you wrote about formal meditation was also excellent. Only the persons who can genuinely relinquish things can undertake formal Buddhist meditation and eventually upgrade it to intensive meditation practice. You have practiced the Right Speech. That is good. Please keep up the good work. By contrast, Ken wrote: "Basically, your practice follows from seeing the Dhamma as a set of instructions. According to my understanding, however, practice (bhavana) is simply any right understanding that might arise now - by conditions." Suan censured Ken and disapproved his wrong speech: ------------------ The Dhamma, in all three Pitakas, explains that the world (loka) is the fleeting, presently arisen conditioned dhammas. If you find that too hard to understand Suan, then DSG can help you. Please think carefully, however, before insisting that there is a world to be known outside the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. ----------------------------- S: > Ken, you should not use the expression 'by conditions' as an easy escape mantra - without specifying which conditions you meant - in order to justify the equating of right understanding to practice (bhavanaa). ----------------------------- That's true. However, I have made my understanding of those conditions clear on countless occasions at DSG. I can't be expected to spell them out every time I mention bhavana. -------------------------------------- S: >You also need to explain what you meant by 'right understanding'. Do you mean Sammaadi.t.thi? If so, do you mean Sammadi.t.thi at the level of awakening? Or do you mean Samaadi.t.thi at the level prior to awakening (pubbabhaaga)? --------------------------------------- Again, I have expressed my understanding of this in countless DSG discussions. I can't be expected to spell it out every time. And you know that! I think you are deliberately confusing the issue in order to conceal the weakness of your arguments. For the record: I believe the ultimately real world is the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. They arise by conditions. There is no control over them. If (by conditions) there is panna (right understanding) amongst those dhammas then there is right practice. It could be right practice at the level of satipatthana (patipatti) or it could be right practice at the level of theoretical understanding (pariyatti). It all depends on conditions. ------------------------------------------------- S: > Ken also wrote: "I hope Suan will read this, and your other post on meditation. .One thing he cannot deny is that none of these instructions for formal meditation can be found in the ancient Pali texts." Suan replied: Ken, I always stressed that Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam is an instruction manual for formal Buddhist meditation. You should read again my post(s) to Jon. I even said that Jon, like K Sujin and other KS Folks including you misunderstood Satipa.t.thaana Suttam. In fact, K Sujin and Sarah even misunderstood the term `sati'. Please read my post(s) to Sarah. ----------------------------- Suan, every time we have had this discussion you have ended it by simply not posting anymore. I have asked you to show where the ancient texts mentioned any of the formal meditation techniques taught by the Burmese sayadaws, or by you, or by Alex etc. Do you remember I quoted one walking-meditation lesson in which a sayadaw taught us to note the foot "lifting, . . lifting, . . lifting, . . ." and so on? Where do the ancient texts contain any such instructions? I can tell you confidently that they don't contain them at all. The texts say that the world is the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. There is no "foot" no "lifting" amongst those dhammas. Is there? ------------------------- S: > Ken, the fact that you misunderstood Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam has been shown in this very post of yours by accusing me of not denying "that none of these instructions for formal meditation can be found in the ancient Pali texts." And, you seemed to forget the very thread "Description or doctrine/instruction?" under which we have been arguing about this issue. Bhikkhu Bodhi also wrote the opening sentence in his Message (Preface) To The Way of Mindfulness By Soma Thera as follows: "The Satipatthana Sutta, the Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness, is generally regarded as the canonical Buddhist text with the fullest instructions on the system of meditation unique to the Buddha's own dispensation." Please pay attention to Bhikhu Bodhi's use of the expression `the fullest instructions' referring to Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam. ------------------------ Suan, you can show me a million such quotes from a million formal meditators (including B. Bodhi). I'll admit they are out there. That doesn't mean they are right. It is interesting to note how formal meditators regard the ancient texts. Even the praiseworthy B. Bodhi feels obliged to disparage them in some way. He says (in an article sometimes quoted on DSG) that the Abhidhamma-pitaka was an ancillary text added to the Pali canon centuries after the Buddha taught. He says this in a respectful way, of course. However, it leaves the way open for him to ignore or contradict parts of those texts whenever they don't suit. This is understandable. The true Dhamma (in which the world is the presently arisen namas and rupas) has been largely lost in recent centuries. And so there are many parts of the Tipitaka that seem anomalous. By uncovering various ancient commentaries K Sujin and others have been able to restore the records and solve the anomalies. We can now understand the Tipitaka in the way that Buddhaghosa and other Theras explained it. Have a look! Don't miss this rare opportunity. Ken H #98709 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:59 pm Subject: No Craving = No Suffering! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: No Craving is the Ceasing of all Suffering! The Blessed Buddha once said: What, now, is this Noble Truth on the Elimination of all Suffering? It is the complete fading away & irreversible elimination of all Craving, the rejection & leaving of it, & the liberating release from it! SN 56:11 But where may this craving vanish, where may it be extinguished? Wherever in the world, there are delightful and pleasurable things! Right there and then may this craving be overcome, and quenched... DN 22 Be it in the past, the present, or in any future, whatever true recluse considers all delightful, attractive & pleasurable things in this world as impermanent anicca, as miserable dukkha, & as without a self anatta, as diseases & as cancers, it is he who conquers craving... SN 12:66 By final fading away and elimination of craving, clinging also ceases; By the elimination of clinging, the process of becoming also ceases; By the elimination of the process of becoming, rebirth also ceases; Through the elimination of all rebirth, all decay, ageing & death!, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair is finally extinguished... Only that is the eradication of this entire mass of Suffering... SN 12:43 Have a nice desireless day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net No Craving = No Suffering! #98710 From: A T Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:11 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? - revised2 truth_aerator Hi Ken, Scott, and all, > "kenhowardau" wrote: > ------------- > > Hi Suan, > > Why did you applaud Alex? The Buddha taught anatta (no self) and yet > Alex has interpreted satipatthana in exactly the same way he would >have interpreted it if the Buddha had *not* taught anatta. Go and drive into a tree at 100 km/h. There isn't anyone to suffer the results, Right? No tree, no driver, no car... But the fact that you won't exposes the shallowness of your sophistic teaching. When it comes to real life you do things. But when it comes to developing wholesome qualities, you try to become a happy clam/ When you drive toward an intersection at red light, what do you do? continue driving? The fact is that "action is". If you are so against conventional action, why do you stop at red light on a 4 way intersection? Isn't that conventional action? Please no sophistic verbal legerdemain. Some actions are neutral, some wholesome, some unwholesome. It is good to do wholesome ones as much as possible and avoid unwholesome. It is also a SMART thing to do, to stop at red light. Just because everything is anatta you do not act like a happy clam, do you? > There is no self that can practice (do anything in ultimate >reality). Understand it or not, that is what the Buddha taught. When you are driving toward the intersection and it is red light, what do you do? Nothing? If so, you are one lucky person... Please no sophism or smart legerdemain hiding under the label of wisdom. > > For the record: I believe the ultimately real world is the presently > arisen paramattha dhammas. They arise by conditions. There is no control > over them. If (by conditions) there is panna (right understanding) > amongst those dhammas then there is right practice. It could be right > practice at the level of satipatthana (patipatti) or it could be right > practice at the level of theoretical understanding (pariyatti). It all > depends on conditions. Do you see these things or believe in them like a good and faithful Christian? Until you see these things, you are no better than a fundamentalist Xtian and all these things are theory for you at this time. ===== Regarding formal instructions ============= "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.1 Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out... Points: 1. ... having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building... 2. "sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect" 3. and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out." Answer them! "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' "[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.' "[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.' [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'5 "[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.' "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html 4. He trains himself [step 3-16] Explain that! Don't turn a noble 8fold path (which includes Satipatthana) into a 1fold path. I know the idea of "an Arahant while cooking" sounds nice. I myself would wish that to be the case. No need to work hard... Just be a happy clam under 6 feet of books... I do like to read myself... But unfortunately reading is not the path. But one must bust one's butt and sweat it out, rather than try to become a sophist who says one thing and does like everyone else - stop at red light, drive at green and do other conventional activities (that pose no threat to hindrances). Why the double standart? Doing activites that hindrances want is fine. But doing the boring (and meditation IS BORING - for the hindrances that is) is somehow "off the table". Mara is clever! With metta, Alex #98712 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" kenhowardau@ wrote: > > I think K Sujin is quoted as > > having said: "The Buddha taught satipatthana, and every word of his > > teaching is to be understood in terms of satipatthana." > > > > Dear Ken > I think this quote you give is misleading. > I have cited sections of the tipitaka to Khun Sujin where she says that this is not directly about satipatthana . One I cited was the sutta to sigala and the section where the buddha recommended not a. sauntering in streets at unseemly hours;and > (b) frequenting theatrical shows; > (c) indulgence in gambling which causes heedlessness. She said if people are not yet ready for satipatthana then the Buddha would teach in in way that prepared them for later insight. > > what Sujin is saying is that the Buddha's teaching is all about satipatthana/anatta or preparing the soil for satipatthana, but she doesn't claim every word in the tipitaka is a direct teaching of satipatthana. ------------ Hi Robert, Regardless of what he was talking about, can you give me one example of an utterance from the Buddha that is not to be understood in terms of satipatthana? Let me put it another way. Is there anything at all that [according to the Buddha's teaching] is not to be understood in terms of satipatthana? I don't think I have said anything controversial at all. The Dhamma applies to the present reality. If we are listening to a talk on oral hygiene (not directly related to satipatthana) the present reality is to be understood in terms of satipatthana. If we are listening to a talk on visible rupa (directly related satipatthana) the present reality is to be understood in terms of satipatthana. If we are walking, eating, talking, putting on robes . . . whatever we are doing right now, the present reality is to be understood in terms of satipatthana. Ken H #98713 From: A T Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking truth_aerator Hi Ken, and all interested, Want to know the characteristic of thinking? Meditate and go deep into Jhana to find out. Otherwise you would be like a fish arguing with a tortoise about what dry land feels and functions like. >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: >Regardless of what he was talking about, can you give me one example >of an utterance from the Buddha that is not to be understood in >terms of satipatthana? Noble 8 fold path. It is not noble 1fold path. Even anapanasati is also a satipatthana exercise: ""This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination." "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.1 Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out... Points: 1. ... having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building... 2. "sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect" 3. and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out." Answer them! "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' "[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.' "[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.' [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'5 "[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.' "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html No sophistic evasions please. > Let me put it another way. Is there anything at all that [according >to the Buddha's teaching] is not to be understood in terms of >satipatthana? Satipatthan as Sati is 7th factor of Noble 8 fold path. It is important but it is NOT be all end all. Please don't cripple the Buddha's path. "Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Meditate, Ananda. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you all." MN152 With metta, Alex #98714 From: "Dr. Han Tun" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:27 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (26) hantun1 Physical Phenomena (26) Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 2. The Eight Inseparable Ruupas (continuation) Han: This chapter deals with the eight inseparable ruupas (avinibbhoga ruupas), namely, solidity, cohesion, temperature, motion, colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence (pathavii, aapo, tejo, vaayo, va.n.na, gandha, rasa, ojaa). We have read colour, odour, flavour, and the first part of the nutritive essence. We now read the second part of the nutritive essence. Questions and comments are welcome. -------------------- We can notice that nutrition produces ruupas when good or bad food affects the body in different ways. Bad food may cause the skin to be ugly, whereas the taking of vitamins for example may cause skin and hair to look healthy. Because of attachment we tend to be immoderate as to food. We are not inclined to consider food as a medicine for our body. The Buddha exhorted the monks to eat just the quantity of food needed to sustain the body but not more and to reflect wisely when eating (Visuddhimagga I, 85). The monk should review with understanding the requisites he receives. We read in the "Visuddhimagga" (I, 124) about the right way of using the requisites (of robes, food, etc.): "... For use is blameless in one who at the time of receiving robes, etc., reviews them either as (mere) elements or as repulsive, and puts them aside for later use, and in one who reviews them thus at the time of using them." The monk should review robes, and the other requisites of dwelling, food and medicines, as mere elements or as repulsive. If he considers food as repulsive it helps him not to indulge in it. Food consists merely of conditioned elements. This can be a useful reminder, also for laypeople, to be mindful when eating. In the Commentary to the "Satipa.t.thaana Sutta" [Note 7], in the section on Mindfulness of the Body, "Clear Comprehension in Partaking of Food and Drink", we read that, when one swallows food, there is no one who puts the food down into the stomach with a ladle or spoon, but there is the element of wind performing its function. We then read about digestion: "... There is no one who having put up an oven and lit a fire is cooking each lump standing there. By only the process of caloricity (heat) the lump of food matures. There is no one who expels each digested lump with a stick or pole. Just the process of oscillation (the element of wind or motion) expels the digested food." There is no self who eats and drinks, there are only elements performing their functions. [Note 7] The Papa~ncasuudanii. See "The Way of Mindfulness", a translation of the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta, Middle Length Sayings I, 10, and its commentary, by Ven. Soma, B.P.S. Kandy. -------------------- Chapter 2. The Eight Inseparable Ruupas to be continued. with metta, Han #98715 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking scottduncan2 Dear Ken. H. and Robert K., Regarding: K: "Regardless of what he was talking about, can you give me one example of an utterance from the Buddha that is not to be understood in terms of satipatthana? Let me put it another way. Is there anything at all that [according to the Buddha's teaching] is not to be understood in terms of satipatthana?" Scott: I don't think any serious-minded discussants on the list have completed a thorough-going discussion about the way in which to best contemplate a thoughtful way of intellectually moving between conventional speech and ultimate meaning. Perhaps we can continue to focus on this, while not being distracted by the wave of meditator-spam that is rolling in. That pa~n~naa has the function of knowing the characteristics of dhammaa, and of developing to such an extent as to arise as a constituent of the Path, is clear. That no self exists, and hence, cannot be responsible or used or whatever to facilitate the arising of the Path is also clear. That the suttas are not instruction manuals is also clear to serious-minded discussants, and this due to the fact that uncontrollability of dhammaa is the characteristic of anatta. This we know was taught by the Buddha. I still think it enters the realm of dogmatism to stretch it and suggest that everything the Buddha taught was to be understood in terms of satipa.t.thaana. It is through the arising of satipa.t.thaana that pa~n~naa develops. Everything is not satipa.t.thaana. Penetrating wisdom is the way in which everything is understood. Sincerely, Scott. #98716 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:06 pm Subject: To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) szmicio Dear Ken > I have been enjoying your posts very much. Sorry, by the way, for > misspelling your name on two occasions: I know it is with a k but my > fingers think c. :-) L: Well, actually there is no problem ;> U can say Lucas, that's actually my name. But some kind of old accumulations makes me to use Lukas ;> > I think I know what you mean. Until the teaching has been fully > penetrated we can only think about absolute reality and the four noble > truths; we can't know them. L: Yes, because thinking thinks. And there is the ~naa.na that understands. So no problem, just leading our daily life, and knowing that ~naa.na understands, not we. The 4th Noble Path is The Knowladge of The Path. And first we can understand it on intelectual level that is sacca ~naa.na. My best wishes Lukas P.s Ken are you attending Bkk meetings with Ajahn Sujin? #98717 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:11 pm Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (26) szmicio Dear Han What is the difference between oja, that is part of inseperable ruupas and the nutrition that is one of 4 conditioning factors, I think in pali it would be ahaara, next to kamma, citta and temperature? My best wishes Lukas #98718 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:46 pm Subject: To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) sprlrt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Hi Alberto, > > > ------------- > (#98537). All I really get out of it is 'o, those are the neat verses about the two truths at the end'. > Hi Connie - Here's my translation of the two truths lines. - Alberto Two truths are told, said the excellent Sambuddha; the conventional and the absolute, no one gets a third. The word-smith truth, concerning worldly matters; the word-ultimate truth, on the actual nature of dhammas. Duve saccaani akkhaasi, sambuddho vadata.m varo; Sammuti.m paramattha~nca, tatiya.m nuupalabbhati. Sa"nketavacana.m sacca.m, lokasammutikaara.na.m; Paramatthavacana.m sacca.m, dhammaana.m bhuutalakkha.nanti. #98719 From: han tun Date: Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:09 pm Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (26) hantun1 Dear Lukas (Nina), > Lukas: What is the difference between oja, that is part of inseperable ruupas and the nutrition that is one of 4 conditioning factors, I think in pali it would be ahaara, next to kamma, citta and temperature? ----- Han: Very good question! I know the difference between the two, but I do not know whether I can explain satisfactorily. I will try. Aahaara is one of the four causes which produce ruupa. As you said, it is next to kamma, citta and utu in the production of ruupas. Aahaara produces 12 kinds of aahaaraja-ruupas, namely, pathavii, aapo, tejo, vaayo, va.n.na, gandha, rasa, ojaa, aakasa-dhatu, ruupassa-lahuta, ruupassa-muduta, and ruupassa-kamma~n~nata. So, you will see that aahaara produces ojaa as well. Thus, I would say that ojaa means nutritive *essence* or the essence of aahaara, and its function is to increase or to give strength. I do not think ojaa, by itself, can produce ruupas, but it is there as one of the eight inseparables in all kinds of ruupa that arises. Nina will correct me if I am wrong. Yours truly, Han #98720 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking kenhowardau Hi Scott, I know what you mean about jingoism and cheerleading. But they are just the downside of discussions between formal meditators and no-controllers, which have always been an integral part of DSG. I'd like you to join in with them more. Try to take the rough with the smooth. Lighten up! :-) Remember too that the jingo criticism can be levelled at both sides. Most of us no-controllers have been accused at some stage of parroting K Sujin. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > ... > Scott: While agreeing that considering an opposing view can allow for deeper contemplation of the Dhamma, I personally am opposed to the level of discourse such debates descend to. Even now, erupting elsewhere on the list, the jingoism and cheerleading has begun. I think that silence is the best response to all this - better than behaving in the same way. > #98721 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:46 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, The monk will use almsfood just as a sick man uses medicine. He will put a stop to the feeling of hunger and he will not indulge in immoderate eating. The Buddha, on the day of his enlightenment, stopped fasting and he took the rice-gruel which was offered to him by Sujt. He had understood that the undertaking of severe ascetical practices was not the Middle Way. Also laypeople can apply to a certain extent, in their own situation, some of the rules of training for the monks. When there is sati- sampajaa while we are eating, it knows the right purpose of the taking of food. We do not have to think all the time what the purpose is of what we are doing. When sati-sampajaa arises it knows the right purpose. When there is clear comprehension with regard to the purpose of the taking of food, there are conditions not to indulge in food, but to take it as a medicine for the body. One can find out what is right for ones health. One should not torture oneself by staying too long in one position of the body. Some people have desire for tranquillity and they are hoping to be able to develop it to a high degree by sitting for a long time. When there is clear comprehension with regard to the purpose one will not torture oneself, one will stretch at the right time or change ones posture. Sati-sampajaa with regard to the purpose is necessary for the development of kusala and right understanding. When we visit the good friend in Dhamma who explains the Dhamma in the right way, or when we visit the holy places in India it can be done with sati-sampajaa with regard to the purpose, namely the development of right understanding. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Tens, Chapter XVIII, 4) about aim and not-aim. The Buddha said to the monks: And what, monks, is not aim? Taking life, taking what is not given, wrong conduct in sexual desires, falsehood, slander, bitter speech, idle babble, coveting, harmfulness and wrong view. This, monks, is called not-aim. We then read that the abstaining from akusala kamma is aim. Sati- sampajaa with regard to the purpose sees the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. ****** Nina. #98722 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:59 am Subject: Re: Pop Mindfulness vs Buddhist mindfulness rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Dear RobertK and all interested, > > Some talk about "just be aware!" , "bare awareness" and "just be be mindful". > > > But how would you respond, if lets say, you were a rich person who has hired a bodyguard and told him to "be mindful" . Then the rich guy is assaulted, robbed and mugged while the big and beefy bodyguard just watches mindfully and attentively. The rich guy screams "What the HELL! Didn't I tell you to be mindful?!" to which the bodyguard would respond: "But Mr., I was mindful! I observed how the bad guy ran up to you from behind. I kept uninterrupted attention on how he hit you with a wrench and took you wallet and raced away". > > What would you do? You'd fire this incompetent bodyguard. > > It is akin to how mindfulness (sati) is being taught today. Just mindful awareness of being raped by incoming defilements. Who needs this? > > _______ Dear Alex I agree with what you say- about how mindfulness is (mis)perceived and often taught these days. Maybe you could read this letter I wrote (in 1996) and comment on it : http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html robert #98723 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pop Mindfulness vs Buddhist mindfulness nilovg Dear Robert and friends, These are good topics for discussion, it explains a great many misunderstandings that may arise. For a good discussion it is necessary to clear misunderstandings. Op 26-jun-2009, om 9:59 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > I agree with what you say- about how mindfulness is (mis)perceived > and often taught these days. Maybe you could read this letter I > wrote (in 1996) and comment on it . -------- N: I like this part: Nina. #98724 From: "sprlrt" Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:44 am Subject: To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) sprlrt Hi again Connie, A couple of corrections to the last two lines of my translation: Sa"nketavacana.m sacca.m: The truth in do's and don'ts terms Paramatthavacana.m sacca.m: the truth in ultimate terms Alberto #98725 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:38 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (26) nilovg Dear Lukas and Han, Op 26-jun-2009, om 8:09 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Lukas: What is the difference between oja, that is part of > inseperable ruupas and the nutrition that is one of 4 conditioning > factors, I think in pali it would be ahaara, next to kamma, citta > and temperature? > ----- N: I consulted 'Guide to Conditional Relations' U Narada, p. 56, 57. We have to distinguish between external food that is taken and internal nutritive essense, oja. The latter can only produce other ruupas when supported by external food. If this is not the case oja can only support other ruupas, it cannot produce new ruupas. Quoting: > -------- > Han: > Thus, I would say that ojaa means nutritive *essence* or the > essence of aahaara, and its function is to increase or to give > strength. I do not think ojaa, by itself, can produce ruupas, but > it is there as one of the eight inseparables in all kinds of ruupa > that arises. ------- N:Only when supported by external food that is taken, as we have seen. Quote from my Conditions: < When nutriment has been taken, the nutritive essence present in the body can produce new groups of rpas, consisting of the eight inseparable rpas. Nutritive essence present in such an octad can in its turn produce another group of eight inseparable rpas (an octad). In this way several octads produced by nutrition will arise one after the other, and thus, nutriment which has been taken can be sufficient for some time afterwards (Visuddhimagga XX, 37).> -------- Nina. #98726 From: han tun Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:13 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (26) hantun1 Dear Nina and Lukas, > Nina: I consulted 'Guide to Conditional Relations' U Narada, p. 56, 57. We have to distinguish between external food that is taken and internal nutritive essense, oja. The latter can only produce other ruupas when supported by external food. If this is not the case oja can only support other ruupas, it cannot produce new ruupas. Quoting: -------- > Nina: Only when supported by external food that is taken, as we have seen. Quote from my Conditions: < When nutriment has been taken, the nutritive essence present in the body can produce new groups of rúpas, consisting of the eight inseparable rúpas. Nutritive essence present in such an octad can in its turn produce another group of eight “inseparable rúpas” (an octad). In this way several octads produced by nutrition will arise one after the other, and thus, nutriment which has been taken can be sufficient for some time afterwards (Visuddhimagga XX, 37).> --------------------- Han: I thank Nina very much for the very useful information. I also thank Lukas for asking the question. If he had not asked this question I would not have the useful guidance from Nina. Respectfully, Han #98727 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking scottduncan2 Dear Ken H., Regarding: K: "I know what you mean about jingoism and cheerleading. But they are the downside of discussions between formal meditators and no-controllers, which have always been an integral part of DSG. I'd like you to join in with them more..." Scott: I know what you mean, Ken. I think I'll stay out on the edges. Sincerely, Scott. #98728 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pop Mindfulness vs Buddhist mindfulness m_nease Hi Robert, rjkjp1 wrote: > ...Maybe you could read this letter I wrote (in > 1996) and comment on it : > http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html Excellent, thanks. Great to see you around here lately. mike #98729 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) m_nease Hi Albert (and Connie), sprlrt wrote: > A couple of corrections to the last two lines of my translation: > Sa"nketavacana.m sacca.m: The truth in do's and don'ts terms > Paramatthavacana.m sacca.m: the truth in ultimate terms > > Alberto Really appreciating this exchange, thanks. mike #98730 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Away - catch up soon! ksheri3 Hi Ken, thank you for you response and for the recognition you give me. VEry generous. Thanx. When meditation is applied the complexity of even the most simple thing becomes so clear. I'm speaking with a person currently about meditations and karma and she has raised the issue of that the past has a tendency to get in the way of what we are doing today or now. Jeeze, can I go a long way on that but I can't because of the time I'm allowed to communicate with the outside world. I'm imprissoned in a prisson called Chicago. I am so shocked that people have not even begun to scratch the surface of my techniques. I mainly apply SHOCK THERAPY. I found this as a potential in the mid to late 70s when I was first introduced to public speaking and giving speaches in class. Tell em the cold hard truth and the shock will have an effect on em. That second or two of delay that the consciousness has is such a splendid diversionary tactic, it's far better than a flash of light or a loud noise. the shock that inflicts the brain and the consciousness is soooooooooo beautiful.I cannot figure out why people do not reflect on their activities and/or the activities that have been done unto them? What is it with society that it's sooooo predictable that it has become nothing more than a text book experience? I have so much more to discuss with you on your conscious post, ALONE, that I cannot even begin to get nto here at this second. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Hi Colette, > > Your acceptance of DSG rules is marvellous and admirable. You understand > that there are millions of people in the world who have passionate > beliefs and who have had experiences that would be very interesting to > hear. However, life is short. We barely have time to hear the Theravada > Dhamma we have chosen to study. And so DSG needs to have rules. #98731 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cetanaa, intention. was: To Rob Ep. Part 1. nilovg Hi Mike, Op 24-jun-2009, om 18:21 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > Ken H: Yes, but I have trouble understanding exactly how cetana (a > paramattha > > dhamma) can be said to function with regard to a sentient being (a > > pannatti dhamma). But I'll leave it at that for now. I theorise too > > much. :-) > > Mike:Can't pa~n~natti be object condition--or one of several other > conditions--for cetanaa? ------- N: When citta experiences a pa~n~natti, also the accompanying cetasikas experience it, each in their own way, performing their functions. At that moment pa~n~natti is object-condition for citta and cetasikas, including cetanaa. But object-condition is not the only condition for citta and cetasikas, there are more than one. The question was about killing a sentient being and whether this, a pa~n~natti, can be object-condition for cetanaa, sure. But also natural decisive support-condition conditions the cetanaa to kill. There was killing in the past and this is an accumulated condition for killing at the present. Also when performing acts of metta for a living being, thus, a pa~n~natti, a pa~n~natti is object-condition for the mettacitta. But there are other conditions operating as well. Nina. #98732 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cetanaa, intention. was: To Rob Ep. Part 1. m_nease Hi Nina, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Mike:Can't pa~n~natti be object condition--or one of several other > > conditions--for cetanaa? > ------- > N: When citta experiences a pa~n~natti, also the accompanying > cetasikas experience it, each in their own way, performing their > functions. At that moment pa~n~natti is object-condition for citta > and cetasikas, including cetanaa. But object-condition is not the > only condition for citta and cetasikas, there are more than one. > The question was about killing a sentient being and whether this, a > pa~n~natti, can be object-condition for cetanaa, sure. But also > natural decisive support-condition conditions the cetanaa to kill. > There was killing in the past and this is an accumulated condition > for killing at the present. > Also when performing acts of metta for a living being, thus, a > pa~n~natti, a pa~n~natti is object-condition for the mettacitta. But > there are other conditions operating as well. Of course--thanks. mike #98733 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cetanaa, intention. was: To Rob Ep. Part 1. kenhowardau Hi Mike and Nina, ---- <. . .> KH: > >Yes, but I have trouble understanding exactly how cetana (a paramattha > dhamma) can be said to function with regard to a sentient being (a > pannatti dhamma). <. . .> M: > Can't pa~n~natti be object condition--or one of several other conditions--for cetanaa? ----- Yes, that's the right answer, thank you. The only trouble, of course, is when understanding of the right answers is not strong. And so my mind wanders off, trying to see how cetana could have (for example) the intention to lift a coffee cup. Lifting is not a function of a cetasika, is it? Lifting belongs to thinking. We think "coffee cup" we think "lifting of coffee cup" and we think "intention to lift coffee cup." The real intention (belonging to cetana-cetasika) is to interact in certain ways with other cetasikas. Urging them, for example, to perform their thinking functions. Thanks for your help, but don't spend too much time on this. I have the right answer, but right understanding may take a little longer. :-) Ken H #98734 From: A T Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:13 pm Subject: Re: Pop Mindfulness vs Buddhist mindfulness truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Alex > I agree with what you say- about how mindfulness is (mis)perceived and often taught these days. Maybe you could read this letter I wrote (in 1996) and comment on it : > http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html > robert > Dear Robert, Sarah, Ken, Scott and all interested, >I think part of the answer for the popularity of formal meditation >is >that when we are sitting very quietly, not moving, and >concentrating >on some meditation object the feeling is very >spiritual - you really >feel like you are practising. Few pointers: Modern life is stressful and people feel attracted to the idea of relaxing and all. Stress relief is popular, including the idea that one should not do anything to become awakened. But as I've said in another post, the Buddhist (as opposed to Hindu or other meditations) is about letting go, renouncing, relinquishing, giving up ALL CONTROL, ALL DESIRE TO ACHIEVE ANYTHING, All self views. I think that it is great disservice to samadhi to simply call it "concentration". Concentration is what snipers and thieves do, but it is not the way to stop sankharas or avijja. Buddhist meditiation is NOT about forceful, "self control" of whatever arises. Remember that anatta applies to meditation as well, and "Self" is not a factor, it is an obstacle. So obviously formal meditation is fully conditioned and without any Self doing it. It happens due to impersonal causes and conditions. >Now I'd like to discuss in particular wrong practise: >Lobha (desire, craving, attachment) is a pervasive motivator for >almost everything we do. For so, so long we have been pushed and >pulled by it. It would be a surprise if it didn't enter into >something as important as spiritual development. Exactly. Desire is a hindrance to the practice, but this doesn't mean that samma-samadhi doesn't happen. One of the reasons for sitting, with eyes closed, etc etc is that the observation that is happening is much clearer that way. When you are doing the dishes or going around the daily business, generally the things happen TOO quickly for most people to observe. When the fan is spinning fast you cannot see its blades. Very often, especially in todays high paced society, too many things are happening and attention is simply overwhelmed. Furthermore in deep samadhi as you are letting go of 5 senses and gradually stopping the 6th one you can see it much better. Allow me to explain: 6 senses are like 6 tv sets showing different channels. When you sit with eyes closed, away from noise, away from kitchen, not paying attention to other senses you are allowing to see that one or few senses which is left (tactile & mind) much better. When one tv is working and 5 others are switched off, you can pay more attention to that tv channel better. Of course this level of samadhi isn't something that is possible or desireble to reach when you are in the kitchen cutting vegetables. Of course when the 5 senses are more and more disabled, more attention, more mindfulness can focus on the mind. Another thing: When lets say thinking suddenly disappears (when you reach Jhana) and then it reappears it allows you to witness its impermanence, and as we know the insight into impermanence is crucial. Here is the thing: We all, including all unawakened non-Buddhist & heretics see that thoughts are impermanent along with 5 sense objects. Yet why don't we all automatically see dukkha and anatta? Why aren't we becoming Arahants? Seeing impermanence means much more than simply observing that thoughts rise & pass away in a mundane sense. The avijja (fed by the hindrances) gives us blind spots and makes us overlook crucial things. When one does "samatha" the hindrances that block the vision are suppressed thus washing the dirt smeared glasses of "vipassana". Furthermore by going deep into meditation on experiences bliss, and the deeper one goes the more bliss & peace there is. This awesome experience can make an inquiring person ask, "why was it so peaceful?" It was peaceful because parts of samsara has vanished for the duration of meditation. The more parts of samsara has temporarily vanished, the more peace there is. Eventually as one gains more mastery of this samatha, the mind (NOT THE SELF!) learns that it is better to let go of samsara and eventually the fetters are dropped because the mind (which always prefers happiness with minimum effort) see and calculates that the new skill is much better than the old one (tanha, upadana, believing in a doer & a knower, etc). The conditioned mental process, through direct experience, recognizes the truth that matters, and the mindfulness task is to remember to behave in a new and better way. Mindfulness remembers the anicca, dukkha, anatta of namarupa (first 3 satipatthanas) and that it is BLISSFUL to let go, renounce, not-to cling, not to misinterpret reality as (self, beauty, permanence, or happiness). All of the above is 100% conditioned process with no on in control. One cannot will the above to happen. It happens when the conditions are right. IMHO. With metta, Alex #98735 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cetanaa, intention. was: To Rob Ep. Part 1. m_nease Hi Ken (and Nina), kenhowardau wrote: > KH: > >Yes, but I have trouble understanding exactly how cetana (a > paramattha > > dhamma) can be said to function with regard to a sentient being (a > > pannatti dhamma). <. . .> > > M: > Can't pa~n~natti be object condition--or one of several other > conditions--for > cetanaa? > ----- > > Yes, that's the right answer, thank you. The only trouble, of course, is > when understanding of the right answers is not strong. And so my mind > wanders off, trying to see how cetana could have (for example) the > intention to lift a coffee cup. Lifting is not a function of a cetasika, > is it? Lifting belongs to thinking. I'd say that 'lifiting' is a designation (for a vast number of consecutive ruupas and naamas). > We think "coffee cup" we think > "lifting of coffee cup" and we think "intention to lift coffee cup." I'd say that vitakka (and possibly vicaara) have "..."coffee cup"..."lifting of coffee cup" and "intention to lift coffee cup..." as objects amongst many other objects in the course of the conventional act. > The > real intention (belonging to cetana-cetasika) is to interact in certain > ways with other cetasikas. Urging them, for example, to perform their > thinking functions. From BB's notes in CMA: Cetanaa, from the same root as citta, is the mental factor that is concerned with the actualization of a goal, that is, the conative or volitional aspect of cognition. Thus it is rendered volition. The commentaries explain that cetanaa organizes its associated mental factors in acting upon the object. So it's by no means limited to interacting with other cetasikas, as I see it (though obviously marshaling (or coordinating) them is a major feature of its activity). Its function, by the way (as you probably know) is "To accumulate (kamma)". mike #98736 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:26 pm Subject: To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) kenhowardau Hi Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > . . . > P.s > Ken are you attending Bkk meetings with Ajahn Sujin? ------- I wish I was! But, no, I have only had that pleasure on a few occasions during one trip to Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan. If you get the chance you should go. Ken H #98737 From: A T Date: Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking truth_aerator Hello Ken, Scott and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Hi Scott, > > I know what you mean about jingoism and cheerleading. But they are >just the downside of discussions between formal meditators and > no-controllers, which have always been an integral part of DSG. And where did I say that there is a Self that controls meditation? Quite the opposite, I tried to point out that self view is not a factor, it is an OBSTACLE to Buddhist meditation. Controlling (a natural extention of self view) RUINS meditation, not helps it. Same with desire & expectations - they just ruin meditation. About no-control: What do you do when you drive? Please no sophistic evasions. With metta, Alex #98738 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking kenhowardau Hi Scott, This thread has caused me to have memory flashes. Stretching right back to childhood there have been countless times when my opinionated, dogmatic, personality has given people the #####s! :-) Having said that, I am still secretly hoping someone (you, Mike, RobertK . . .?) will continue this "every word of the Dhamma" debate with me. But don't feel obliged; I will understand. ----------- <. . .> S: > That pa~n~naa has the function of knowing the characteristics of dhammaa, and of developing to such an extent as to arise as a constituent of the Path, is clear. That no self exists, and hence, cannot be responsible or used or whatever to facilitate the arising of the Path is also clear. That the suttas are not instruction manuals is also clear to serious-minded discussants, and this due to the fact that uncontrollability of dhammaa is the characteristic of anatta. This we know was taught by the Buddha. I still think it enters the realm of dogmatism to stretch it and suggest that everything the Buddha taught was to be understood in terms of satipa.t.thaana. It is through the arising of satipa.t.thaana that pa~n~naa develops. Everything is not satipa.t.thaana. Penetrating wisdom is the way in which everything is understood. ------------ We must be seeing different meanings in the quote. To me, it simply sums up the things you have listed. It seems to be the inevitable conclusion. There are only dhammas, therefore . . . No, I will quit while the going's good. :-) Ken H PS: There is one thing that perhaps should be commented on. You say that not everything "is satipatthana" but is that true in every sense? I think some knowledgable people here have been heard to say "everything is Dhamma." That means everything is "the way things are" doesn't it? Hmm . . . #98739 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking scottduncan2 Dear Ken H., Regarding: K: "This thread has caused me to have memory flashes. Stretching right back to childhood there have been countless times when my opinionated, dogmatic, personality has given people the #####s! :-)" Hey, man, you're a surfer - what more is there to say? We all accept it - why don't you? ;-) I'm curious, by the way, as to what the expletive might be - I never use them and hence can't imagine which one you've alluded to. Send it off-list. Ha Ha. K :"Having said that, I am still secretly hoping someone (you, Mike, RobertK . . .?) will continue this 'every word of the Dhamma' debate with me. But don't feel obliged; I will understand." Scott: I'm happy to continue to contemplate the Dhamma with you. I don't feel obliged. In exchange, however, you *must not* give in to the impulse to take the bait offered by the meditators. This is a pointless quest to be sure and you'll be hooked like a guppy. ;-) K: "We must be seeing different meanings in the quote. To me, it simply sums up the things you have listed. It seems to be the inevitable conclusion. There are only dhammas, therefore...There is one thing that perhaps should be commented on. You say that not everything 'is satipatthana' but is that true in every sense? I think some knowledgable people here have been heard to say 'everything is Dhamma.' That means everything is 'the way things are' doesn't it? Hmm . . ." Scott: The way I understand satipa.t.thaana is that it is short-hand for referring to the function of sati and pa~n~naa in relation to an object. Sati, pa~n~naa, citta, the object - all are just dhammaa. And 'Dhamma' differs in meaning from 'dhamma'. To say 'everything is Dhamma' is not to say 'everything is satipa.t.thaana.' Sincerely, Scott. #98740 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:18 am Subject: Mission Complete! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Mission Completed! Laid down is the burden! The Buddha once said about The Arahat: The Perfected Worthy One: For a Disciple thus released, whose mind dwells in pure peace, there is nothing to be added to what has been done, and nothing more remains for him to do. Just as a rock of one solid mass of granite stone stands unshaken by any wind, even so do neither forms, nor sounds, nor smells, nor tastes, nor contacts of any kind, whether attractive or repulsive, disturb an Arahat. Imperturbable is his mind, gained is release! AN 6:55 Arahat Mahinda He who has considered all dualities, all differences, all contrasts here, who is never anymore stirred or perturbed by anything in all this world! Such Peaceful One, freed from rage, elevated above sorrow, & without fumes of longing, he has passed beyond birth, decay & death... Sn 1048 Arahat Qualities, Best among Gods & Men, Withdrawn_and_Accomplished FREED For him who has completed this journey. For him who is untouched by any pain or sorrow. For him who is in every-way wholly freed. For him who has broken all chains. For such one, no Suffering is ever Possible! Dhammapada Illustration 90 Background Story 90 CALM Calm is his mind. Calm is his speech. Calm is his action. So is the Tranquility; So is the Equanimity; of one freed by the Insight of absolute knowledge. Dhammapada Illustration 96 Background Story 96 RADIANT Whether in village or forest, on land, in the sea or on the mountain; where Arahats dwell all is indeed delightful, subtle and refined. Dhammapada Illustration 98 Background Story 98 SOLITARY Delighting are the forests, where the passionate common folks do not haunt their trivial pleasures... There the cooled ones find the Bliss not of this World! Dhammapada Illustration 99 Background Story 99 More on this sublimely Blissful State called Nibbāna: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Peace.htm ... Absolute Freedom, Peace, & Happiness! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Mission Complete! #98741 From: han tun Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:09 am Subject: To Lukas: Re: Physical Phenomena (26) hantun1 Dear Lukas, While we are still on the Nutrition, I would like to have your opinion on the following. At the end of Chapter 2. The Eight Inseparable Ruupas, Nina asked the following questions: 1. Is there nutrition with matter we call a table? 3. Nutrition is one of the four factors which can produce ruupa. Can it produce the materiality we call tree? If you were asked to answer the above two questions, how would you answer? Thank you very much. Kind regards, Han #98742 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking kenhowardau Hi Alex, 'No-controllers' is just a name I sometimes give to the non-meditating members of DSG. But you could be right; maybe it wrongly suggests that meditators believe in control. What name would you suggest I use?. ---------------- A: > And where did I say that there is a Self that controls meditation? Quite the opposite, I tried to point out that self view is not a factor, it is an OBSTACLE to Buddhist meditation. ----------------- True. I notice, however that you didn't say there was no self. You just said that self-view was an obstacle. So, would you like to answer definitely, one way or the other: Is there a self? --------------------------- A: > Controlling (a natural extention of self view) RUINS meditation, not helps it. Same with desire & expectations - they just ruin meditation. ---------------------------- Yes, but a definitive answer would be good. Is there a self? Is there control? ------------------------------- A: > About no-control: What do you do when you drive? Please no sophistic evasions. ------------------------------- That's a bit unfair, Alex. In the long time you have spent at DSG you have been given pages and pages (and pages) of explanations. The answer is not sophistic (hair-splitting) but it does require a lot of explanation. Ultimately, the answer is 'there is never a self; there is never control." However, you have to know what is meant by that answer. You, unfortunately, don't know. And the way you are going, you will never know. Ken H #98743 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking truth_aerator Hi Ken and all interested, > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > ---------------- > A: > And where did I say that there is a Self that controls meditation? > Quite the opposite, I tried to point out that self view is not a factor, > it is an OBSTACLE to Buddhist meditation. > ----------------- > > True. I notice, however that you didn't say there was no self. You just > said that self-view was an obstacle. So, would you like to answer > definitely, one way or the other: Is there a self? "Self Exists" is a wrong view. There is just a dependently originated process where the delusion of Self grows. I thought I was clear. > --------------------------- > A: > Controlling (a natural extention of self view) RUINS meditation, > not helps it. Same with desire & expectations - they just ruin > meditation. > ---------------------------- > > Yes, but a definitive answer would be good. Is there a self? Is there > control? No Self and No One in Control. > ------------------------------- > A: > About no-control: What do you do when you drive? Please no > sophistic evasions. > ------------------------------- > > That's a bit unfair, Alex. In the long time you have spent at DSG you > have been given pages and pages (and pages) of explanations. The answer > is not sophistic (hair-splitting) but it does require a lot of > explanation. I allow you to cut and paste brief and relevant replies to the above. Just because there is no Self, doesn't contradict that there are conventional actions that ARE done by all - unless you are some happy clam who lies in bed and doesn't move . >And the way you are going, you will never > know. > > Ken H Thanks. It is better to SEE rather than to READ about these things. With metta, Alex #98744 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:29 am Subject: To Lukas: Re: Physical Phenomena (26) szmicio Dear Han and Nina, This discussion on nutrition is very helpful to me. > 1. Is there nutrition with matter we call a table? L: There is oja that arises with each group of ruupas. But I am still not sure about the meaning of ahaara that conditions aahaaraja-ruupas. When we are talking about nutrition do we refer to oja or to ahaara? > 3. Nutrition is one of the four factors which can produce ruupa. Can it produce the materiality we call tree? L: I think it can only condition aahaaraja-ruupas, so not tree ;> Some aspects are still not clear to me. I want to rise another questions. 1) What is the external food that is taken to sustain life? How do we know that it is external food? 2) so oja can condition another group of ruupas? But there was said that ruupa can be conditioned only by citta, kamma, utu and aahaara. My best wishes Lukas #98745 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:40 am Subject: Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. Ch 7, no 5 szmicio Dear friends, Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:05 am Subject: To Lukas: Re: Physical Phenomena (26) hantun1 Dear Lukas (Nina), ---------- > Lukas: This discussion on nutrition is very helpful to me. > 1. Is there nutrition with matter we call a table? L: There is oja that arises with each group of ruupas. But I am still not sure about the meaning of ahaara that conditions aahaaraja-ruupas. When we are talking about nutrition do we refer to oja or to ahaara? > 3. Nutrition is one of the four factors which can produce ruupa. Can it produce the materiality we call tree? L: I think it can only condition aahaaraja-ruupas, so not tree ;> Some aspects are still not clear to me. I want to rise another questions. 1) What is the external food that is taken to sustain life? How do we know that it is external food? 2) so oja can condition another group of ruupas? But there was said that ruupa can be conditioned only by citta, kamma, utu and aahaara. ---------- Han: Thank you very much for your quick response. While waiting for the response from Nina, I have only one brief comment. I did not know until now that ojaa can produce another octad. This fact is confirmed by the following: (1) Quote from the Conditions by Nina: (2) Extract from Visuddhimagga XX, 37: the nutritive essence originates a further octad-with-nutritive-essence-as-eighth and the nutritive essence in that octad originates a further octad, and thus links up the occurrence of octads ten or twelve times. [ojaa a~n~na.m oja.t.thamaka.m samu.t.thaapeti, tatrapi ojaa a~n~nanti eva.m dasa dvaadasa vaare pavatti.m gha.teti.] Yours truly, Han #98747 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:10 am Subject: To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) nichiconn Hi Alberto, Howard, mike, Lukas, Duve saccaani akkhaasi, sambuddho vadata.m varo; Sammuti.m paramattha~nca, tatiya.m nuupalabbhati. Sa"nketavacana.m sacca.m, lokasammutikaara.na.m; Paramatthavacana.m sacca.m, dhammaana.m bhuutalakkha.nanti. Two truths are told, said the excellent Sambuddha; the conventional and the absolute, no one gets a third. The word-smith truth, concerning worldly matters; the word-ultimate truth, on the actual nature of dhammas. Sa"nketavacana.m sacca.m: The truth in do's and don'ts terms Paramatthavacana.m sacca.m: the truth in ultimate terms === connie: ie, (ultimately) does & doesn'ts; the old prescriptive -vs- descriptive thing again? I like "word-smith" but "actual" raised a bit of a flag :) - forge on: "Actually" truth is truth and of the two ... well, it's actually a third that isn't - or that absolutely no way obtains. Concepts in no way obtain the sense doors. They might condition the mind by object (predominance) condition but are not conditioned (by the mind or otherwise). They don't experience. Sabhava doesn't apply; continuity applies - so yea, the time thing. What is it we want to know about them again? PTS dict mentions ketu under (variegated) citta & under sanketa ... but jump to: Ketuvant (adj.) [fr. ketu] having flags, adorned with flags ... ... marks on logs & how a toothstick might lead to a 'close contemplation' of the foulness of "food" or "the body"... but I don't know where the jacket thread ends and this one begins. The other word was kita, which has a sense of deception; the way the puppet's all pranked up on adventious defilements... or too many pills. peace, connie Ketubha [deriv. unknown] expld by Buddhaghosa DA i. 247 as "the science which assists the officiating priests by laying down rules for the rites, or by leaving them to their discretion" (so Trenckner, J.P.T.S. 1908, 116). In short, the ritual; the kalpa as it is called as one of the vedangas. {cut} #98748 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:52 am Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) abhidhammika Hello Alex, Ken, Chris F, Howard, Robert K, Robert E, Sarah, Jon, Connie, Mike N How are you? _______________________________ Suan: > Ken, you should not use the expression 'by conditions' as an easy escape mantra - without specifying which conditions you meant - in order to justify the equating of right understanding to practice (bhavanaa). _______________________________ Ken replied: "That's true. However, I have made my understanding of those conditions clear on countless occasions at DSG. I can't be expected to spell them out every time I mention bhavana." Thank you, Ken, for the reply. But, as I wrote in my message # 98556, ____________________________________________________________________ By the way, even though all my years at DSG, you should not have assumed that I would visit it regularly, let alone reading many posts. That is why, only belatedly, I became aware of K Sujin and KS Folks including you have been against formal practices of Siila, Samatha and Vipassanaa, thereby deviating from the Buddha's Theravada teachings. So, my ignorance, condescending or otherwise, about what has been going on all these years at DSG was duly justified. By the way, you would notice that I do not include your name in my posts. That is a clear indication that I have deliberate ignorance about your posts (i.e, I do not read them). This also applies to Scott D's posts. So, Ken, please do not assume that I know who reads what, or who objects to what. Deliberate ignorance is bliss! See Section 213, Siilakkhandhavaggapali, Diighanikaaya. ____________________________________________________________ So, Ken, you still need to spell out those conditions for me as I requested. Or you could re-post your old message in which you spelled out the conditions for arising of right understanding. Failure to do either of them could allow me and others to assume that you do not know those conditions. Similarly, I asked you: "You also need to explain what you meant by 'right understanding'. Do you mean Sammaadi.t.thi? If so, do you mean Sammadi.t.thi at the level of awakening? Or do you mean Samaadi.t.thi at the level prior to awakening (pubbabhaaga)?" Ken, you replied: "Again, I have expressed my understanding of this in countless DSG discussions. I can't be expected to spell it out every time. And you know that! Suan complained: No, Ken, I don't know. Please do me a favour. Please kindly stop accusing me of knowing things I don't know, of saying things I did not say. So, Ken, I expected you to spell out what you meant by 'right understanding'. Do you mean Sammaadi.t.thi? If so, do you mean Sammadi.t.thi at the level of awakening? Or do you mean Samaadi.t.thi at the level prior to awakening (pubbabhaaga)?" Or you could re-post your old message in which you spelled out what you meant by `right understanding'. Failure to do either of them could allow me and others to assume that you do not know what right understanding is. Ken, you also wrote: "I think you are deliberately confusing the issue in order to conceal the weakness of your arguments." Suan reassure: Ken, I have not put forward my arguments yet. The very reason I asked you the above questions is to examine your answers, and if I found them to be incoherent, I may censure you and argue against them. So, please kindly make sure that you answer them in line with the Buddha's Theravada teachings. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #98749 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:56 am Subject: To Lukas: Re: Physical Phenomena (26) gazita2002 hallo Han and Lukas, > Dear Lukas (Nina), > > ---------- > > Lukas: This discussion on nutrition is very helpful to me. > > 1. Is there nutrition with matter we call a table? > L: There is oja that arises with each group of ruupas. But I am still not sure about the meaning of ahaara that conditions aahaaraja-ruupas. When we are talking about nutrition do we refer to oja or to ahaara? > > 3. Nutrition is one of the four factors which can produce ruupa. Can it produce the materiality we call tree? > L: I think it can only condition aahaaraja-ruupas, so not tree ;> > Some aspects are still not clear to me. I want to rise another questions. > 1) What is the external food that is taken to sustain life? How do we know that it is external food? > 2) so oja can condition another group of ruupas? But there was said that ruupa can be conditioned only by citta, kamma, utu and aahaara. > ---------- > > Han: Thank you very much for your quick response. > While waiting for the response from Nina, I have only one brief comment. > I did not know until now that ojaa can produce another octad. azita: neither did I, and upon reading yr following extracts, I remembered my studies in chinese dietetics. when we take in coarse food stuffs, a healthy body can transform it into 'essences' [which BTW is not paramattha dhamma] but I was thinking that if we dont eat then these essences arent produced. No essences for a long time would stop other 'octads' from being produced, manifesting in withering and finally death of 'this body'?? I dont know if oja relates to all rupas or just rupas of the 'body' I also will wait for Nina's reply. > > This fact is confirmed by the following: > (1) Quote from the Conditions by Nina: > > (2) Extract from Visuddhimagga XX, 37: > the nutritive essence originates a further octad-with-nutritive-essence-as-eighth and the nutritive essence in that octad originates a further octad, and thus links up the occurrence of octads ten or twelve times. > [ojaa a~n~na.m oja.t.thamaka.m samu.t.thaapeti, tatrapi ojaa a~n~nanti eva.m dasa dvaadasa vaare pavatti.m gha.teti.] > > Yours truly, > Han > #98750 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:53 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) kenhowardau > So, Ken, you still need to spell out those conditions for me as I > requested. Or you could re-post your old message in which you spelled > out the conditions for arising of right understanding. > > > > Failure to do either of them could allow me and others to assume that > you do not know those conditions. Hi Suan, You ask that question because you think that right understanding can be made to arise. But it can't. Right understanding is something that is accumulated gradually over many lifetimes. To the extent that it has been accumulated, it can arise at any time. Exactly which time is unknowable - unpredictable. That's why I (and others) simply say its arising depends on conditions. Kitagiri Sutta MN 70 (MLDB, Nanamoli/Bodhi trans): Bhikkhus, ... final knowledge is achieved by gradual training, gradual practise, gradual progress. And how does there come to be gradual training, gradual practise, gradual progress? Here one who has faith [in a teacher] visits him; when he visits him, he pays respect to him; when he pays respect to him, he gives ear; one who gives ear hears the Dhamma; having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it; he examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up in him; when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will; having applied his will, he scrutinises; having scrutinised, he strives; resolutely striving, he realises with the body the ultimate truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom. ------------------ S: > Similarly, I asked you: "You also need to explain what you meant by 'right understanding'. Do you mean Sammaadi.t.thi? If so, do you mean Sammadi.t.thi at the level of awakening? Or do you mean Samaadi.t.thi at the level prior to awakening (pubbabhaaga)?" Ken, you replied: "Again, I have expressed my understanding of this in countless DSG discussions. I can't be expected to spell it out every time. And you know that! Suan complained: No, Ken, I don't know. Please do me a favour. Please kindly stop accusing me of knowing things I don't know, of saying things I did not say. So, Ken, I expected you to spell out what you meant by 'right understanding'. Do you mean Sammaadi.t.thi? If so, do you mean Sammadi.t.thi at the level of awakening? Or do you mean Samaadi.t.thi at the level prior to awakening (pubbabhaaga)?" Or you could re-post your old message in which you spelled out what you meant by `right understanding'. Failure to do either of them could allow me and others to assume that you do not know what right understanding is. ---------------- Let's backtrack and find the context in which you originally asked me that question. I had written: ------ > > > Basically, your practice follows from seeing the Dhamma as a set of instructions. According to my understanding, however, practice (bhavana) is simply any right understanding that might arise now - by conditions." > > > ------- And then you asked your question: ----------- > > You also need to explain what you meant by 'right understanding'. Do you mean Sammaadi.t.thi? If so, do you mean Sammadi.t.thi at the level of awakening? Or do you mean Samaadi.t.thi at the level prior to awakening (pubbabhaaga)? > > --------- So you can see, can't you, that we been talking about whether the Dhamma was a set of instructions or whether it was a description of the present-moment conditioned reality? In that context I answered with the following two paragraphs (not just the one you have quoted): --------------- > > Again, I have expressed my understanding of this in countless DSG discussions. I can't be expected to spell it out every time. And you know that! I think you are deliberately confusing the issue in order to conceal the weakness of your arguments. > > For the record: I believe the ultimately real world is the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. They arise by conditions. There is no control over them. If (by conditions) there is panna (right understanding) amongst those dhammas then there is right practice. It could be right practice at the level of satipatthana (patipatti) or it could be right practice at the level of theoretical understanding (pariyatti). It all depends on conditions." > > ---------------- Now can you see now why I answered that way? As for your new question, my answer is: right understanding is the conditioned dhamma "panna" - also known as "amoha" or "samma-ditthi." I hope now, Suan you will answer the questions I have asked you (about why directions for formal meditation cannot be found anywhere in the Pali canon). Ken H #98751 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cetanaa, intention. was: To Rob Ep. Part 1. nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 26-jun-2009, om 23:35 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > I have the > right answer, but right understanding may take a little longer. :-) ------ N: This is the problem for all of us. Then we need energy, viriya, in order not to become disheartened. We need patience to investigate nama and rupa over and over again. Lifting a cup: cetanaa accompanies each citta. Citta and cetasikas condition ruupas so that what we call hand can move. Do not forget rupas. Just nama and rupa, no problem. Nina. #98752 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:48 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) abhidhammika Hello Ken Thank you for your reply. Ken, please keep in mind that you are dealing with a traditional teacher of Theravada. You may not realise it. But, your answers were incoherent. I won't be showing you where you went incoherent. I will let you read your own post again (perhaps many times). If you found your own incoherency, you have ample time to rectify them before I censure you. As I have been undertaking intensive meditation using Aanaapaana as meditation objects, I have little time to write posts. So, you can have a breathing space. In case you could not find your own incoherency, think hard why you were unable to do so. For example, what was blocking you? Best wishes Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #98753 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking nilovg Dear Ken H and Scott, Op 27-jun-2009, om 2:38 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > You say that not everything 'is satipatthana' but is that true in > every sense? ------- N: This reminds me of the many trips I had with Kh Sujin and where we discussed many kinds of kusala actions. She explained that there is not satipa.t.thaana all the time, but there are also other levels of kusala that are not satipa.t.thaana. There are many other levels of sati and it is useful to consider these. Sati does not waste the opportunity for daana, siila, calm, helping others, being patient, any kind of kusala. We do not have to think of satipa.t.thaana all the time. So I can appreciate the many good councils the Buddha gave to Sigala. But read the end of such suttas where the Buddha also explained satipa.t.thaana. It is true, when someone is sometimes aware of naama and ruupa and there are moments of satipa.t.thaana such development conditions also other levels of kusala. I am typing out now my journey in Egypt and Turkey where we discussed so many practical points occurring in daily life. Impatience when our luggage is lost for example. Here Kh Sujin would not say: there is no luggage. Just helping us to know when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta. This makes the application of the teachings very natural. ------- Nina. #98754 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:20 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) scottduncan2 Dear Ken H., Regarding: S: "Hello Ken Thank you for your reply. Ken, please keep in mind that you are dealing with a traditional teacher of Theravada. You may not realise it. But, your answers were incoherent. I won't be showing you where you went incoherent. I will let you read your own post again (perhaps many times). If you found your own incoherency, you have ample time to rectify them before I censure you. As I have been undertaking intensive meditation using Aanaapaana as meditation objects, I have little time to write posts. So, you can have a breathing space. In case you could not find your own incoherency, think hard why you were unable to do so. For example, what was blocking you?" Scott: http://s3.images.com/huge.8.41698.JPG ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #98755 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Lukas: Re: Physical Phenomena (26) nilovg Dear Lukas and Han, Op 27-jun-2009, om 7:29 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > 1. Is there nutrition with matter we call a table? ------- N: what we call a table consists of units of ruupas consisting of the eight inseparable ruupas and among them is oja, nutritive essence. -------- > > L: There is oja that arises with each group of ruupas. But I am > still not sure about the meaning of ahaara that conditions > aahaaraja-ruupas. When we are talking about nutrition do we refer > to oja or to ahaara? ------- N: Aahaaraja ruupas only arise with rupas of a living being. As Han quoted from my answer: You ask : When we are talking about nutrition do we refer to oja or to ahaara? It depends on the context. When speaking about ahaara-paccaya, it is ahaara, not oja-paccaya. When speaking about ruupas of the body produced by nutrition, we say ahaaraja ruupa, not ojaja ruupa. When speaking about the eight inseparables the term oja is used. Oja is translated as nutritive essense. --------- > > > 3. Nutrition is one of the four factors which can produce ruupa. > Can it produce the materiality we call tree? > > L: I think it can only condition aahaaraja-ruupas, so not tree ;> -------- N: It can produce ruupas in the body of a living being, not ruupas we call dead matter, such as a tree. Only temperature, the element of heat, produces ruupas outside that are not of a living being. --------- > > > L: 1) What is the external food that is taken to sustain life? How > do we know that it is external food? ------- N: It is also called kabali'nkaara ahaara, morsel-made food. Bread, butter, whatever you take and swallow. But as Sarah recently mentioned, also creams used on the skin can be included. ------ > > L: 2) so oja can condition another group of ruupas? But there was > said that ruupa can be conditioned only by citta, kamma, utu and > aahaara. ------- N: We should not get confused by the words ahaara and oja used in different contexts. Speaking about ahaara that produces rupas of the body, it is actually the nutritive essence (oja) that pervades the body after taking 'external' food, or morselmade food. ----- Nina. #98756 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:24 pm Subject: To Lukas: Re: Physical Phenomena (26) szmicio Dear Han, Azita and Nina There is also aahaara-paccaya, that is divided into: physical nutriment, contact(phassa) volition(manosancetana) consciousness(vinnana) Here is an extract from Nina's Conditions, Chapter 12, Regarding physical nutriment: ------------- My best wishes Lukas #98757 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:28 pm Subject: To Lukas: Re: Physical Phenomena (26) szmicio Here is also some good explanation: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49548 > Dear Han, Azita and Nina > > There is also aahaara-paccaya, that is divided into: > physical nutriment, > contact(phassa) > volition(manosancetana) > consciousness(vinnana) > > #98758 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:23 pm Subject: e-card from Casperia, nr Rome sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Howard & all, Many thanks for your kind wishes for our trip to Italy. We are now in a beautiful, small, Medieval, walled village on a hill, about 2 hrs from Rome. We came straight here from the airport and and it's really delightful. We have simple accommodation with a terrace overlooking all the valleys and nearby hills. The area is famous for its olive groves and the people are very friendly and helpful. It's totally off the tourist-track and the houses are left unlocked. We walk, cycle, cook, do yoga, dip into thermal (sulphur) baths and catch up with the list as best we can - not a bad way to recover from the journey and jet-lag before joining up with family next week for my mother's get-together. And, Scott & Mike, as we sat on a door-step with Jon's computer, trying to access an office's wi-fi, a friendly cat jumped up onto my knee:). Appreciating all the discussions - hope to properly catch up this weekend. Meanwhile, those with different views on practice or meditation (from us), be assured your contributions are as welcome as anyone else's, as far as we're concerned! Please encourage and be patient with each other:). Metta, Sarah ========= #98759 From: A T Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:04 pm Subject: Re: e-card from Casperia, nr Rome truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Nina, Howard & all, > > We are now in a beautiful, small, Medieval, walled village on a hill, >about 2 hrs from Rome. W Hello Sarah (and all interested). I wish you a pleasant trip. Why is it that physical actions are allowed, but "formal" meditation isn't (or at least, looked down at)? Not all meditators "do things" with a Self view. Self view, willing, controlling, trying to change what is is an OBSTACLE to proper Buddhist meditation. One doesn't need to go further than MN118 sutta to see the set of instructions there: ===== Regarding formal instructions ============= "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.1 Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out... Points: 1. ... having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building... 2. "sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect" 3. and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out." What are they other than being INSTRUCTIONS on things to do. Note: This process is Anatta as well. But being a conditioned process doesn't deny that it happens. "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' ... [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.' "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html 4. He trains himself [step 3-16] Explain that within the "no training" perspective. Don't turn a noble 8fold path (which includes Satipatthana, an important ingridient) into a 1fold path. I know the idea of "an Arahant while cooking" sounds nice. I myself would wish that to be the case. No need to work hard... Just be a happy clam under 6 feet of books... I do like to read myself... But unfortunately reading is not the path. But one must bust one's butt and sweat it out, rather than try to become a sophist who says one thing and does like everyone else - stop at red light, drive at green and do other conventional activities (that pose no threat to hindrances). Why the double standart? Doing activites that hindrances want is fine. But doing the boring (and meditation IS BORING - for the hindrances that is) is somehow "off the table". Mara is clever! With metta, Alex #98760 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from Casperia, nr Rome upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - In a message dated 6/27/2009 3:01:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Nina, Howard & all, Many thanks for your kind wishes for our trip to Italy. We are now in a beautiful, small, Medieval, walled village on a hill, about 2 hrs from Rome. We came straight here from the airport and and it's really delightful. We have simple accommodation with a terrace overlooking all the valleys and nearby hills. The area is famous for its olive groves and the people are very friendly and helpful. It's totally off the tourist-track and the houses are left unlocked. ------------------------------------------ How wonderful that this can be so! ------------------------------------- We walk, cycle, cook, do yoga, dip into thermal (sulphur) baths and catch up with the list as best we can - not a bad way to recover from the journey and jet-lag before joining up with family next week for my mother's get-together. And, Scott & Mike, as we sat on a door-step with Jon's computer, trying to access an office's wi-fi, a friendly cat jumped up onto my knee:). Appreciating all the discussions - hope to properly catch up this weekend. Meanwhile, those with different views on practice or meditation (from us), be assured your contributions are as welcome as anyone else's, as far as we're concerned! Please encourage and be patient with each other:). ---------------------------------------- Lovely to read your good words, Sarah, though not a surprise. :-) ----------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ============================== My best to Jon. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98761 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:14 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Ken H., > > Regarding: > > S: "Hello Ken <. . .> > Scott: http://s3.images.com/huge.8.41698.JPG > ---------------- Thanks Scott, If I had the link I'd refer you to the classic cartoon that has the caption: "Are you coming to bed?" "I can't. This is important!" "What?" "Someone is wrong on the internet." :-) KenH #98762 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:27 am Subject: Look Mama: No Ego! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is the most essential core Buddhist Doctrine? Question: What is the first hindrance (samyojana=fetter=mental chain) blocking entrance to the Noble Path leading to Nibbāna (sotāpatti-magga)? Answer: This first hindrance is Personality View (Sakkāya-ditthī): "Permanent personality" belief, "Same Self" as baby & old person assumption, "I am this Me" self-deceit, "This Body is my Own" notion, "This Body is my Self" notion, "This Body is ME" notion, "This Body is my Person" notion "I have a permanent Ego" concept "Body is mine+own+person" view "Feeling is mine+own+person" view "Perception is mine+own+person" view "Construction is mine+own+person" view "Consciousness is mine+own+person" view All are conjectures of the false assumption, that these phenomena are stable entities, that can be kept unchanging & thereby definable as the core of self! This concept of "a person" is rather a process, a transient flux, continuously becoming otherwise and something else. We are more different from what we were 5 minutes ago, than we are different from an other person ... Never are we the same person ... ! The person is thus : "Na ca so, na ca anno" Not the same, neither another! King Milinda's Questions. Milindapanha. -ooOoo- Any Person is: Always changing, Not the Same, yet neither another, but continuously becoming Otherwise & Different! -ooOoo- View the world as Empty Thus always Aware, Mogharaja Giving up belief in any Self One may escape Death, since the king of Death cannot see one with such void view. Sutta Nipāta 1119 -ooOoo- All phenomena are Egoless, impersonal, without a self! Sabbe Dhamma Anatta -ooOoo- Selflessness = Anatta Is difficult to comprehend as habitually counterintuitive yet the most essential & unique teaching in all the Buddha-Dhamma! -ooOoo- More on this baffling Selflessness: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Anatta_No_Self.htm Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Look Mama: No Ego! #98763 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:13 am Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) scottduncan2 Dear Ken H., Regarding: K: "Thanks Scott, If I had the link I'd refer you to the classic cartoon that has the caption: "Are you coming to bed?" "I can't. This is important!" "What?" "Someone is wrong on the internet." Scott: ;-) S. #98764 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:51 am Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? nichiconn Yes, Suan? #98748 - { Well, thank you, and you? connie #98765 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:48 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, When other people speak in a harsh way to us we think immediately of ourselves, of our own interest. What is really useful to ourselves? When sati-sampajaa arises it sees the benefit of patience and lovingkindness, it sees the benefit of all kinds of kusala. When other people are unkind they give us an opportunity to cultivate patience and endurance. We need sati-sampajaa with regard to the purpose in daily life. If one wants to develop calm (samatha) one needs sati-sampajaa which knows the benefit of kusala and which sees the disadvantage of attachment to the sense objects. When one has desire for tranquillity the citta is akusala, but one may not notice it. In order to develop calm which is wholesome there must be sati-sampajaa which realizes the disadvantage of desire. So long as there is desire one will not reach the goal. For the development of the Eightfold Path sati-sampajaa with regard to the aim is necessary. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Tens, Chapter XIV, 4) that the Buddha said to the monks that the factors of the wrong path are not-aim. As regards aim, we read: And what, monks, is aim? Right view, right thinking, right speech, right action, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration, right knowledge and right release.... When one follows the wrong path there is no sati-sampajaa. When one develops the right path there is clear comprehension with regard to the aim. The goal is the eradication of wrong view and all the other defilements. If one develops the right path one will eventually reach the goal. ****** Nina. #98766 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from Casperia, nr Rome nilovg Dear Sarah and Jon, I am very happy to hear that your stay is a good rest. We were worried that it was all too hectic. I endorse your words that of course all contributions, containing different kinds of views are welcome. Yes, I would like to encourage everybody. Patience is indispensable at all times. Nina. Op 27-jun-2009, om 16:23 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Meanwhile, those with different views on practice or meditation > (from us), be assured your contributions are as welcome as anyone > else's, as far as we're concerned! Please encourage and be patient > with each other:). #98767 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:32 am Subject: Assignment / was Re: characteristic of thinking kenhowardau Hi Nina, Scott, Mike, Robert K and all, Thanks for being so patient with me. In return - and to show how broadminded I can be - I have set myself an assignment. I am to formulate an argument in support of the following statement: "The Buddha taught satipatthana, and yet, not every word of his teaching was to be understood in terms of satipatthana." My time starts now . . . 　 　 　 　 　 Honestly, I am lost for ideas! I can't bring myself to talk about tooth sticks or about poor uneducated people - or about any subject at all - in a way that would ascribe a conventional teaching to the Buddha. Fail! :-( Ken H PS: Even though I said "fail" that was not to mean that there *really* was a failure of any kind. Visible object was experienced by seeing consciousness, audible object by . . . etc, etc. That's all that *really* happened. Just like is happening now: there is no self that can try, pass or fail, or be taught a conventional teaching; just dhammas. #98768 From: "Dr. Han Tun" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:41 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (27) hantun1 Physical Phenomena (27) Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 2. The Eight Inseparable Ruupas (continuation) Han: This chapter deals with the eight inseparable ruupas (avinibbhoga ruupas), namely, solidity, cohesion, temperature, motion, colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence (pathavii, aapo, tejo, vaayo, va.n.na, gandha, rasa, ojaa). We have read the four derived ruupas, i.e., colour, odour, flavour, and nutritive essence. We now read some more aspects of the Eight Inseparables. Questions and comments are welcome. -------------------- Whatever kind of materiality arises, there have to be the four Great Elements and the four derived ruupas of visible object, odour, flavour and nutrition. Because of ignorance we are attached to our possessions. We may understand that when life ends we cannot possess anything anymore. But even at this moment there is no "thing" we can possess, there are only different elements that do not stay. When we look at beautiful things such as gems we tend to cling to them. However, through the eyes only colour or visible object appears and through touch tangible object such as hardness appears. In the absolute sense it does not make any difference whether it is hardness of a gem or hardness of a pebble that is experienced through touch. We may not like to accept this truth since we find that gems and pebbles have different values. We have accumulated conditions to think about concepts and we neglect the development of understanding of realities; we tend to forget that what we call gems and also the cittas that enjoy them do not last, that they are gone immediately. Someone who leads the life of a layman enjoys his possessions, but he can also develop understanding of what things really are. In the ultimate sense life exists only in one moment, the present moment. At the moment of seeing the world of visible object is experienced, at the moment of hearing the world of sound, and at the moment of touching the world of tangible object. Life is actually one moment of experiencing an object. The "Book of Analysis" [Note 8] (Part 3, Analysis of the Elements, 173) mentions precious stones together with pebbles and gravel in order to remind us of the truth. It explains about the internal element of extension (solidity) as being hair of the head, hair of the body and other "parts of the body". Then it explains about the external element of extension as follows: "Therein what is the external element of extension? That which is external, hard, harsh, hardness, being hard, external, not grasped. For example: iron, copper, tin, lead, silver, pearl, gem, cat's-eye, shell, stone, coral, silver coin, gold, ruby, variegated precious stone, grass, wood, gravel, potsherd, earth, rock, mountain; or whatever else there is...." [Note 8] Vibhanga, Second Book of the Abhidhamma, Pali Text Society, 1969. ------------------------------ Chapter 2. The Eight Inseparable Ruupas to be continued. with metta, Han #98769 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:53 am Subject: To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) sprlrt Hi Connie (Mike & all), connie: ie, (ultimately) does & doesn'ts; the old prescriptive -vs- descriptive thing again? A: What about and insted of vs? C: I like "word-smith" but "actual" raised a bit of a flag :) - forge on: A: Then pick your choice yourself :-) - from PTS "bhta (..) 3. (nt. adj) that wich is, i.e. natural, genuine, true; nt. the truth : neg. abhta falsehood, lie". C: "Actually" truth is truth and of the two ... well, it's actually a third that isn't - or that absolutely no way obtains. A: The two truths can only be told (akkhsi) by words (vacna), very much like lies, but hearing the truths, unlike hearing lies or even half-truths, can condition (with yoniso manasikara, proper considering what one's hearing) the arising of satipatthana, where words have no meaning (i.e. no paatti), the whole lot being just a single dhamma, sadda rammana/yatana (or rpa, if reading them). C: Concepts in no way obtain the sense doors. They might condition the mind by object (predominance) condition but are not conditioned (by the mind or otherwise). They don't experience. Sabhava doesn't apply; continuity applies - so yea, the time thing. What is it we want to know about them again? A: Concepts? can't live with'em, can't live without them, something like that... C: PTS dict mentions ketu under (variegated) citta & under sanketa ... but jump to: A: See also Childers: "Sanketo, engagement, ... assignation" Alberto #98770 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:01 am Subject: Immediate rebirth christine_fo... Hello all, I wonder if someone can clarify this for me please - what is the scriptural basis for instantaneous rebirth? Is immediate rebirth mentioned anywhere in the Sutta Pitaka? metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #98771 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking kenhowardau Hi Alex, ----------- KH: > > I notice, however that you didn't say there was no self. You just > said that self-view was an obstacle. So, would you like to answer > definitely, one way or the other: Is there a self? A: > "Self Exists" is a wrong view. ---------- "Yes it is. But "Self does not exist" can also be a wrong view, can't it? Do you know why, or when, it can be a wrong view? ------------------ A: > There is just a dependently originated process where the delusion of Self grows. I thought I was clear. ------------------ Sorry, no. What is this "process" that is dependently originated? ------------------------- > A: > Controlling (a natural extention of self view) RUINS meditation, > not helps it. Same with desire & expectations - they just ruin > meditation. > KH: > > Yes, but a definitive answer would be good. Is there a self? Is there control? A: > No Self and No One in Control. -------------- That's what I like to hear! ------------------------------- > A: > About no-control: What do you do when you drive? Please no > sophistic evasions. > ------------------------------- > > That's a bit unfair, Alex. In the long time you have spent at DSG you > have been given pages and pages (and pages) of explanations. The answer > is not sophistic (hair-splitting) but it does require a lot of > explanation. A: > I allow you to cut and paste brief and relevant replies to the above. ------------------------- Thanks, I'll pass. :-) But why do you need convincing? Haven't you just told me there is no self and no control? ------------------------------------ A: > Just because there is no Self, doesn't contradict that there are conventional actions that ARE done by all ------------------------------------- Done by whom? I think you will find that, in a moment of right understanding, the realisation is, "There is no self here, no conventional actions, just nama (or rupa)." ------------------ A: > unless you are some happy clam who lies in bed and doesn't move . ------------------- Even the idea of being a happy clam is self view. Even "lying in bed" is a conventional action. ---------------------------- KH: > >And the way you are going, you will never > know. A: > Thanks. It is better to SEE rather than to READ about these things ----------------------------------------- I meant that as a friendly warning, not as an accusation. My point was that right understanding is not gained through any kind of ritualistic sitting. It is gained through hearing the Buddha's teaching. Ken H #98772 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:19 pm Subject: Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) kenhowardau Hi Suan, -------------- <. . .> S: > Ken, please keep in mind that you are dealing with a traditional teacher of Theravada. --------------- So you have said, but you haven't explained what that means. What makes a person a traditional teacher of Theravada? --------------------------- S: > You may not realise it. But, your answers were incoherent. I won't be showing you where you went incoherent. I will let you read your own post again (perhaps many times). If you found your own incoherency, you have ample time to rectify them before I censure you. --------------------------- I look forward to learning where my answers were incoherent. --------------------------------------- S: > As I have been undertaking intensive meditation using Aanaapaana as meditation objects, I have little time to write posts. So, you can have a breathing space. In case you could not find your own incoherency, think hard why you were unable to do so. For example, what was blocking you? --------------------------------------- Without wishing to be rude, Suan, I'd like to make clear that I don't regard you as my teacher. At least, no more than anyone else at DSG is my teacher. Ken H #98773 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 6/28/2009 7:58:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: I meant that as a friendly warning, not as an accusation. My point was that right understanding is not gained through any kind of ritualistic sitting. It is gained through hearing the Buddha's teaching. =============================== What is "ritualistic" sitting? Is there "ritualistic" listening to the Dhamma? Is there "ritualistic" contemplation of the Dhamma? When the Buddha's bhikkhus sat in caves, in abandoned dwellings, and at the roots of trees, engaged in meditation as he urged them to do, were they engaged in "ritual," and did the Buddha ever, in any sutta, describe jhana cultivation as "ritual"? As an aside, I believe that the defilement of sīlabbata-parāmāsa is not engaging in purposeful actions, which may or may not have salutary effect depending on the specifics, but clinging to them as magic. Do Nina, Jon, and Sarah and others display sīlabbata-parāmāsa when visiting Buddhist shrines - bodhi trees, and stupas, and the like? When bhikkhus bow towards Buddha-rupas, are they necessarily clinging to rite & ritual? Do you believe that no stream enterers bow to Buddha-rupas? As I view the matter, what makes an activity a ritual is ones's attitude - one's mind. Everything of importance in Dhamma practice is internal, by which I mean pertaining to mind. When activities are engaged in not based on the reality of their effect, but on superstition, that is sīlabbata-parāmāsa, as I view the matter. With metta, Howard The Body Field /Monks, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing. Just as whoever pervades the great ocean with his awareness encompasses whatever rivulets flow down into the ocean, in the same way, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing./ #98774 From: A T Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:30 pm Subject: Meditation, thinking & Buddha discovered proper meditation truth_aerator Hi Ken, and all interested in correct understanding of Buddhist Meditation: >--- "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Alex, > > ----------- > KH: > > I notice, however that you didn't say there was no self. Read message below. I dis say it. > You just said that self-view was an obstacle. So, would you like to answer > > definitely, one way or the other: Is there a self? > A: > "Self Exists" is a wrong view. > ---------- > > "Yes it is. But "Self does not exist" can also be a wrong view, can't > it? Do you know why, or when, it can be a wrong view? > > ------------------ > A: > There is just a dependently originated process > where the delusion of Self grows. I thought I was clear. > ------------------ > > Sorry, no. What is this "process" that is dependently originated? The process that is analyzed as Vinnana & namarupa, 5 aggregates, 6 elements, 12 or 18 bases, etc. When one meditates and sees the process, it is much better than to stick labels and be satisfied with word definitions. >right understanding is not gained through any kind of ritualistic > sitting. It is gained through hearing the Buddha's teaching. > > Ken H Ken!??? Where did I say or imply that understanding is gained through ritualistic action? Did you read my recent post on meditation? If you do not understand that, then no offence, no wonder the 26 years of meditation for you didn't work. But no worries, it is still reversible (I hope :) ). === Proper meditation is about non-doing (through wise understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta), disengaging self-views and relinquishing attachments. When you sit down and close your eyes, you are temporarily relinquishing sights. When you sit in a place outside of smells and activity, you are relinquishing smells and things 'to do'. When you watch the breath and you don't control it, you are relinquishing that aspect of control. You refine the mind's awareness and can focus more and more on the arising & ceasing of mental states. The more the mind lets go, the deeper into peace and tranquillity the mind goes. The more control you try to do (Let me reach this or that Jhana! Where is awakening! I want to awaken) the more disturbed the meditation is. The meditation is a great place to see Anatta-in-action. Mental states are out of control. *I* cannot will this or that mind states. Hindrances happen regardless of the wish to the contrary. So what is left to do is to give up control. This giving up of control is anatta as well. But as the 'giving up' happens, hindrances start to fall away. The reasons for hindrances is the deluded Self view, and delusive Self feeling, Self intention, and Selfish intention to control. Sensual desire, restlessness, and doubt may keep one from meditating at all! This just shows how much hindrances are in non-meditators. It takes a lot of relinquishment (through proper understanding) to be able to sit down and calm down the delusion of Self & The Doer. When there is Self delusion, there is 'doing' of this and that. You know dishes have to be washed, the garden needs to be taken care of, one has to "read the Abhidhamma to 'understand the realities'" so on and so forth. For many this is the example of doing. Proper and succesful meditation is the ability to let go off doing. A very hard thing for some to do. Reading Abhidhamma for some can be an ego trip like [misused] meditation for some misguided mis-meditators. Remember, the Self (or control, or any doing) is not a factor, it is an obstacle for proper Buddhist, meditation. Reading as a path to awakening is similiar to Hindu Beliefs (ex: Jnana Yoga) while deep and proper meditation is exclusively Buddhist. --- An interesting passage regarding the disturbances that may come: Quote: "If internally the intellect is intact and externally ideas come into range, but there is no corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. But when internally the intellect is intact and externally ideas come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness." [repeat the same for other 5 senses.] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html In Satipatthana samyutta there is passage that says that attention -> dhamma (as in mental qualities) Note the importance of not just the meeting for external & internal elements but volitional engagement as well. How does this relate to meditation? The reason we are disturbed by external sounds, bodily feelings, ideas and so on is because of attention (or conscious engagement) which is desire for these things. If one could temporary (at first) remove all the desire for these things, they would not produce corresponding type of consciousness that would kick you out of the bliss. Thus what needs to be done is to develop contentment, relinquishment, separation, disengagement which would lead to cessation of those consciousness and whatever hindrances that may arise. So the meditation should never be "lets wrestle and force out all distractions". This may cause samadhi headache but not awakening. Ultimately one cannot force the mind to be still, only deep contentment and letting go can. When it comes to Sankharas (2nd link in DO) I think that this is important, meditation wise. Deep Samadhi states (from which wisdom grows) are temporary pacifications of Sankharas. The thing conditioning Sankharas is Avijja. Avijja paccaya sankaro. Thus success in Buddhist meditation is temporary switching off Avijja, and the more avijja you manage to temporarily shut off - the deeper the Jhana. And in these moments if one's observation powers are strong & sharp, when avijja is temporarily knocked out, one may see what avijja has concealed. Eventually this sneak peak, the look at the bottom of the ocean where the waters have parted (ala Moses), can lead to awakening. As long as there is Avijja, liberative wisdom cannot arise. Since avijja is conditioned, it is possible to temporary (at first) to disable it in deep meditations. Since it is avijja that conditions & feeds sankharas which are gradually switched off in Jhana, by suspending avijja the sankharas are suspended as well. Few pointers regarding anapanasati: -Don't crave for the in/out breath that has not happened yet (this is greed). This was somewhere in Ptsm. on Anapanasati. In any case, if mind is coloured with sensual desire, that is a hindrance to impersonally seeing things as they have arisen. Greed (desire, longing, etc) can be for anything and during meditation one should try to remove as much of hindrances as possible. -Try not to be aversive to breath or whatever disturbance is happening while you are sitting. This is engaging the mind about how bad the breath is and just creates more disturbances that you are trying to remove! You are shooting yourself in a foot! This is why it is important to relax the body to pacify the bodily discomfort that can trigger aversion , and to be mindful of HOW the mind relates to the breath (or whatever object of meditation is) to avoid aversion. While keeping the mindfulness as sharp as possible do not try to control what happens, don't feed the delusion of "Self that can control the meditation [or anything else]". This is engaging with Self-View and thoughts. More engagement = less contentment and more distractions happening in the mind. The Self belief is not a factor, it is an obstacle. Controlling goes against Anatta. Anatta = no total control. Let go of all controling, manipulating and other self interactions during meditation. It is safe, it isn't driving Smile. Try to temporarily relinquish as much as possible. Only then will you go deeper. Try to be like a passanger in a car or in an airplane. Let go of the steering wheel and commanding Ego Mind. -The attention should not only be on the breath, but on the way the MIND relates to the breath. Mindfulness should be mindful and counter-act any hindrances that arise between the mind & the breath. Here is a danger in overconcentrating on the breath itself to the exclusion of all else - you may miss the more important happening, the mental *reaction* to the breath. As long as there are hindrances, percieved or not, proper deep Meditations + insight cannot happen. This is crucial. There is nothing that special in the breath itself, but the mental reaction to the object is far more important. The more mind reacts to the breath (with like, dislike or controlling) the less quit and peaceful meditation is. You cannot use force to let go! Sometimes too much concentration on the breath itself may make one inattentive to desire or aversion or self delusion that the mind has. The one-pointedness achieved should not be "forced" . Tranquilize the restlessness, tranquilize the desire & discontent that causes the mind to wobble and "move" to other subjects. The more contentment you build and more you disengage, renounce, let-go - the less the mind engages in thinking, perceiving and willing. Contentedness with what is, during meditation is very important, crucial actually. This is one of the reasons why there needs to be piti-sukkha (through letting go and relinquishing the heavy burdens) happening. The more bliss one gets from the breath-meditation, the easier it is to maintain still one-pointedness of mind. Furthermore the more bliss of letting go one achieves the more incentive the mind has to let go of holding and the more one experientially sees 4 NT. Considering how much some have studied Dhamma, it would not be surprising that after deep Samadhi the mind would automatically incline to what it has studied before, drop the fetters and make the awakening happen. Remember there is no Self-Controller that can command awakening to happen. Awakening happens when the delusion of Self (and all its relations) is dispelled. The Self with all the things that Self must do, is what prevents from getting into deeper meditations. Sitting meditation is the best place to totally relinquish all doing & controlling, and let the mind sink into wonderful and blissful states. By blissing out due to LETTING GO the mind (not The Self) eventually and experimentially learns that there is higher happiness and the mind inclines toward that higher happiness. Also this is a mental skill (that is not yet developed), to let go, which is refined more and more during meditations and is conditioned into the mental stream. Eventually the new and better skill (to let go) is assimilated into the mental stream and eventually this "second nature" becomes the "natural" inclination of the mind. Eventually little by little, the mind relinquishes more and more until it learns the skill to let go of samsara for good - why? Because it is so peaceful & blissful to cease as all that arises is unsatisfactory and all that is lost is just pointless suffering. All that is of the nature to arise, ceases. If one holds to anything, that will cease and be lost (for sure). When nothing is held, nothing is lost. That is peaceful. Don't have a Self view. Meditate! Some talk about "just be aware!" , "bare awareness" and "just be be mindful". But how would you respond, if lets say, you were a rich person who has hired a bodyguard and told him to "be mindful" . Then the rich guy is assaulted, robbed and mugged while the big and beefy bodyguard just watches mindfully and attentively. The rich guy screams "What the HELL! Didn't I tell you to be mindful?!" to which the bodyguard would respond: "But Mr., I was mindful! I observed how the bad guy ran up to you from behind. I kept uninterrupted attention on how he hit you with a wrench and took you wallet and raced away". What would you do? You'd fire this incompetent bodyguard. It is akin to how mindfulness (sati) is being taught today. Just mindful awareness of being raped by incoming defilements. Who needs this? Mindfulness should remember that whenever hindrance arises it only arises toward vinnana&namarupa. The hindrances are anicca,dukkha,anatta and the mind should not engage in sensual pleasures and other hindrances. When the mind forgets (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and it wonders in the wrong pasture, it must be reminded with Sati ASAP. The hindrances (especially sensual desire, ill will, restlessness, & doubt) are due to inappropriate attention, inappropriate doing of the deluded mind. Sati must remember to counteract this with vijja. Quote: "[1] "There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances? There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within, he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining hindrances: ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty.)" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html So even within anapanasati proper, there is a lot of wisdom and satipatthana involved. One must remember what is right attention and what is wrong attention and one must remember to disengage from improper attention as soon as it arises. Whenever a hindrance arises and remains - at that time it is lack of mindfulness. Mindfulness and hindrance cannot coexist if it is the right mindfulness vs "drop the soap in a prison shower" mindfulness. The hindrance doesn't arise from 0% to 100% in 2 moments. There are a lot of stages in between and if one's mindfulness is sharp it can remember (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and disengage, let go, renounce, and return to proper attention of the breath and whatever namarupa is that arises at that moment. One of the reasons for sitting, with eyes closed, etc etc is that the observation that is happening is much clearer that way. When you are doing the dishes or going around the daily business, generally the things happen TOO quickly for most people to observe. When the fan is spinning fast you cannot see its blades. Very often, especially in todays high paced society, too many things are happening and attention is simply overwhelmed. Furthermore in deep samadhi as you are letting go of 5 senses and gradually stopping the 6th one you can see it much better. Allow me to explain: 6 senses are like 6 tv sets showing different channels. When you sit with eyes closed, away from noise, away from kitchen, not paying attention to other senses you are allowing to see that one or few senses which is left (tactile & mind) much better. When one tv is working and 5 others are switched off, you can pay more attention to that tv channel better. Of course this level of samadhi isn't something that is possible or desireble to reach when you are in the kitchen cutting vegetables. Of course when the 5 senses are more and more disabled, more attention, more mindfulness can focus on the mind. Another thing: When lets say thinking suddenly disappears (when you reach Jhana) and then it reappears it allows you to witness its impermanence, and as we know the insight into impermanence is crucial. Here is the thing: We all, including all unawakened non-Buddhist & heretics see that thoughts are impermanent along with 5 sense objects. Yet why don't we all automatically see dukkha and anatta? Why aren't we becoming Arahants? Seeing impermanence means much more than simply observing that thoughts rise & pass away in a mundane sense. The avijja (fed by the hindrances) gives us blind spots and makes us overlook crucial things. When one does "samatha" the hindrances that block the vision are suppressed thus washing the dirt smeared glasses of "vipassana". Furthermore by going deep into meditation on experiences bliss, and the deeper one goes the more bliss & peace there is. This awesome experience can make an inquiring person ask, "why was it so peaceful?" It was peaceful because parts of samsara has vanished for the duration of meditation. The more parts of samsara has temporarily vanished, the more peace there is. Eventually as one gains more mastery of this samatha, the mind (NOT THE SELF!) learns that it is better to let go of samsara and eventually the fetters are dropped because the mind (which always prefers happiness with minimum effort) see and calculates that the new skill is much better than the old one (tanha, upadana, believing in a doer & a knower, etc). The conditioned mental process, through direct experience, recognizes the truth that matters, and the mindfulness task is to remember to behave in a new and better way. Mindfulness remembers the anicca, dukkha, anatta of namarupa (first 3 satipatthanas) and that it is BLISSFUL to let go, renounce, not-to cling, not to misinterpret reality as (self, beauty, permanence, or happiness). All of the above is 100% conditioned process with no on in control. One cannot will the above to happen. It happens when the conditions are right. Buddha has awoken to (some translate "Discovered") Jhana SN 2.7 The Jain leader doubted the possibility of 2nd Jhana at all. SN 41.8 Buddha to be remembered his Jhana experience after unsuccessful attempts atawakening using other peoples methods. MN36 The Buddha couldn't practice Jhana following a common practice of bodily mortification. Another extreme practice (of sensual gratification) also doesn't support Jhana. Bodily mortification & sensual indulgence were the two most common practices known to people of those times. Only the Middle Path, discovered by Buddha, supports Jhana and teaches Jhana as samma-samadhi. === The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness." - SN22.5 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.005.than.html They will surely reach the far shore [Nibbana] like a fish when the net is cut, Who having attained the jhanas, are diligent with flaws discarded." SN 2.11 Jhana IS the path to awakening - MN36 Jhana Is what Buddha awakened to. AN9.42 & SN2.7 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.042.than.html Jhana Is Practiced by awakened ones: Dhp 23 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.02.than.html#dhp-23 Jhana Leads to 4 fruits: From Stream to Arhatship. (DN29) Jhana Is Right Concentration - SN 45.8 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html Ending of Mental Fermentations depend on Jhana - AN 9.36 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html Samadhi is proximate condition to "knowledge and vision of things as they really are" - SN12.23 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html Jhana is the only 4 Meditative absorptions thay Buddha praised. -MN108 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.108.than.html Jhana goes together with discernment (panna): Dhp 372 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.than.html#dhp-372 Jhana Is a mark of a great discernment, great man - AN4.35 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.035.than.html Jhana is the escape from confinement. AN 9.42 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.042.than.html Released through Panna (Pannavimutti) = Jhanas 1-9 AN 9.44 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html 7 Parts of Noble 8 Fold path are Support for Noble concentration (Jhana) - MN117 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html Thus, verily, monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the no-whither way. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo AN6.64 "Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.than.html The Buddha has recomended Jhana for trainees - MN107 It is *impossible* to break 5 lower and 5 upper fetters without Jhana (and insight after it). - MN64 Jhana + discernment is a single thing that can lead one to Arhatship - AN 11.17 MN Suttas that mention Jhana: 1,4, 6, 8, 13, 19, 35, 30, 31, 36, 38, 43, 45, 53, 53, 59, 64, 65, 66, 76, 77, 78, 79, 85, 106, 107, 108, 111, 112, 113, 119, 121, 128, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141,152 DN# 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,16,17,22, 19,26,27, 29, 31, 32 === With metta, Alex #98775 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:13 pm Subject: Re: Immediate rebirth scottduncan2 Dear Chris, Regarding: C: "I wonder if someone can clarify this for me please - what is the scriptural basis for instantaneous rebirth? Is immediate rebirth mentioned anywhere in the Sutta Pitaka?" Scott: This sutta seems at least to use a simile to describe the instantaneous nature of rebirth; also see SN V 56 33(3): SN II 15 9 (9) The Stick "At Savatthi. 'Bhikkhus, this sa.msaara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. Just as a stick thrown up into the air falls now on its bottom, now on its side, now on its top, so too as beings roam and wander on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, now they go from this world of the other world, now they come from the other world to this world. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, this sa.msaara is without discoverable beginning ... It is enough to be liberated from them.'" Da.n.dasutta.m Saavatthiya.m viharati ... 'anamataggoya.m, bhikkhave, sa.msaaro. Pubbaa ko.ti na pa~n~naayati avijjaaniivara.naana.m sattaana.m ta.nhaasa.myojanaana.m sandhaavata.m sa.msarata.m. Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, da.n.do uparivehaasa.m khitto sakimpi muulena nipatati, sakimpi majjhena nipatati, sakimpi antena nipatati; evameva kho, bhikkhave, avijjaaniivara.naa sattaa ta.nhaasa.myojanaa sandhaavantaa sa.msarantaa sakimpi asmaa lokaa para.m loka.m gacchanti, sakimpi parasmaa lokaa ima.m loka.m aagacchanti. Ta.m kissa hetu? Anamataggoya.m, bhikkhave, sa.msaaro ... ala.m vimuccitu 'nti. Navama.m. Sincerely, Scott. #98776 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:37 pm Subject: Re: Immediate rebirth truth_aerator Dear Scott, Your reply doesn't seem to be to the question asked. The question was: "the scriptural basis for instantaneous rebirth? Is immediate rebirth mentioned anywhere in the Sutta Pitaka?" Your answer was: Samsara is without discoverable begining and that one sometimes is born in heaven, sometimes in hell. Question was one thing and answer another. The idea of immediate rebirth first appeared with Milindapanha and Katthavatthu. Both works are centuries older than the Historical Buddha's teachings. The suttas do *suggest* in intermediate existence between rebirths and some modern Theravada monastics do believe in intermedeate state. Some pali suttas: M38: Required things: mother in season, intercorse + GANDHABBA. Bhikkhus, with the coming together of three things a descent to the womb comes about: Here the mother and father come together. It is not the season of the mother. The one to be born does not attend. Then there is no descent to the womb. Here, mother and father come together. It is the season of the mother. The one to be born does not attend. Then there is no descent to the womb. Here mother and father come together. It is the season of the mother and the one to be born attends. Then there is a descent to the womb. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/038-mahatanhas\ ankhaya-sutta-e1.html "And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.009.than.html And the suttas that deal with 7 kinds of Anagamis. Some achieve arhatship in-between the two lives. With metta, Alex #98777 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Immediate rebirth upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Scott) - ...cut #98776... ================================ The paper at _http://www.c2rc.org/papers/C2RC2008-P2S3-ModernScholars'Persp-MaxDeeg.pdf_ (http://www.c2rc.org/papers/C2RC2008-P2S3-ModernScholars'Persp-MaxDeeg.pdf) is relevant to this matter. BTW, it references a paper by "our" Rob Moult! :-) With metta, Howard P. S. In The Selfless Mind, Peter Harvey points to two Pali suttas that are suggestive of an intermediate state. #98778 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) jonoabb Hi Alberto (98562) Many thanks for tracking down the translation of the Pali passage quoted by Suan. Thanks also for your comments on the translation of "manasikarosii'' as "practises" rather than "is considering". I think you could well be right on this. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: > > Hi Jon, here is Soma Thera translation of the pli passage Suan's posted, I just inserted a correction in brackets - Alberto > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html > ... > The Commentary to the Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness > with Marginal Notes > The Section of the Synopsis > ... > Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo = "This is the only way, O bhikkhus." Why did the Blessed One teach this Discourse? Because of the ability of the people of the Kurus to take in deep doctrine. > ... > Further, in that territory of the Kuru people, the four classes bhikkhu, bhikkhuni, upasaka, upasika generally by nature were earnest in the application of the Arousing of Mindfulness to their daily life. At the very lowest, even servants, usually, spoke with mindfulness. > At wells or in spinning halls useless talk was not heard. > If some woman asked of another woman, "Mother, which Arousing of Mindfulness do you practice?" (``amma tva.m katara.m satipa.t.thaanabhaavana.m manasikarosii'' [mother, which (of the four) development of satipatthana are you considering?]) and got the reply, "None at all," then that woman who replied so was reproached thus: "Your life is shameful; though you live you are as if dead," and was taught one of the kinds of Mindfulness-arousing. > But on being questioned if she said that she was practicing such and such an Arousing of Mindfulness, then she was praised thus: "Well done, well done! Your life is blessed; you are really one who has attained to the human state; for you the Sammasambuddhas have come to be." ... #98779 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) jonoabb Hi Suan (98532) > =============== > "That of course is the translator's opinion. Do you have any "plain > words of the > suttas" to support the view that "Satipa.t.thaana Sutta is an > instruction manual > of meditation practice"?" > > Yes. The very Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam supports the translator's > opinion. The commentary on this Suttam also supports his opinion. In > other words, Aacariya Buddhaghosa also regarded this great Suttam as an > instruction manual of meditation practice. > > Please see Sections 105, and 106, Uddesakathaava.n.nanaa, > Satipa.t.thaanasuttava.n.nanaa, Majjhimanikaayo. ... > =============== Thanks to Alberto, I now have the Soma translation of this passage from the commentary (a copy is at the end of this post). The translator apparently takes the view that the passage describes some kind of formal "practice" being carried out by the Kurus, hence his choice of "do you practice" rather than "are you considering" for the Pali "manasikarosii''. But I see nothing in the context to support that view. To my mind, the passage makes perfect sense as an exchange concerning the cittas of the present moment. In any event, I don't see how this particular passage helps us to understand the words of the sutta. It is a description of the reason why the Kurus were a suitable audience for the deep teaching found in the sutta. Would you mind saying a few words about why you see this passage as supporting the view that the sutta is "an instruction manual of meditation practice"? Thanks. Jon The Section of the Synopsis ... Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo = "This is the only way, O bhikkhus." Why did the Blessed One teach this Discourse? Because of the ability of the people of the Kurus to take in deep doctrine. ... Further, in that territory of the Kuru people, the four classes bhikkhu, bhikkhuni, upasaka, upasika generally by nature were earnest in the application of the Arousing of Mindfulness to their daily life. At the very lowest, even servants, usually, spoke with mindfulness. At wells or in spinning halls useless talk was not heard. If some woman asked of another woman, "Mother, which Arousing of Mindfulness do you practice?" and got the reply, "None at all," then that woman who replied so was reproached thus: "Your life is shameful; though you live you are as if dead," and was taught one of the kinds of Mindfulness-arousing. But on being questioned if she said that she was practicing such and such an Arousing of Mindfulness, then she was praised thus: "Well done, well done! Your life is blessed; you are really one who has attained to the human state; for you the Sammasambuddhas have come to be." #98780 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) jonoabb Hi Howard (98528) > =============== > Yes, kamma is intention. But the kamma/intention that brings the result > of contact with good people in this lifetime is kamma performed at a time > unrelated in conventional terms to the occurring of that result (and most > likely in a previous life, as I understand it). > -------------------------------------- > Well, I don't know. Some vipaka arises after aeons and some is > immediate, and there are all the intermediate possibilities. Kamma is complex, and > few details are available. > =============== Yes, some kamma brings its result within the same lifetime. But we were discussing the question of whether coming into contact with knowledgeable people in this lifetime is the result of the intention associated with deliberate action to make that situation occur. I'm not aware of anything in the texts that suggests this to be the case. On the contrary, the verses of the elders seem to indicate that such association occurs generally as a result of kusala deeds performed in a previous life. If the intention to have kusala could be the condition for the arising of that kusala, or if intention to experience the result of kusala could be the condition for the experiencing of that result, it would hardly need a Buddha to explain the way out of samsara ;-)) > =============== > ;-)) But as someone who considers choice of language to be of > considerable importance, you do I'm sure appreciate any attempt at precision no matter > how "funny" the expression may seem. > ---------------------------------------- > I get that it's not a matter of mere choice of language but of > expressing your understanding. It is simply quite far from my understanding. > =============== Yes, it's a matter of differences in understanding, rather than of idiosyncratic means of expression. But to get back to the matter at issue, the Pali patipatti, usually translated as "practice", refers to actual moments of insight development, rather than to any activity undertaken with at view to conditioning the arising of moments of insight. > =============== > Among the followers who became enlightened were those who sought out > "roots of trees" and those who did not. > ------------------------------------------ > Examples of the latter? > =============== Obvious examples of followers who became enlightened but were not among those who sought out "roots of trees" would be any enlightened lay followers: Anaathapindika, Upaali (see M 56), there would be dozens. Then there were many monks who were not seekers of roots of trees. > =============== My assumption is that whoever you might come > up with were folks who had lots of "tree work" as background, an activity > the Buddha always associated with urgency. > =============== To my knowledge, there is no basis in the texts for assuming that followers who were not described as forest dwellers (or similar) had had experience in developing samatha in remote places. That is a matter of following a particular lifestyle, not of simply "going on retreat" for a period, and it requires certain accumulated tendencies. > =============== > It is not the adoption of a particular form of lifestyle (forest-dwelling > monk, monastery-dwelling monk, or householder) or activity (doing whatever > at the roots of trees) that leads to enlightenment but the understanding of > the "this/that" conditionality taught by the Buddha. > ------------------------------------------- > Jon! I'm not talking about lifestyle, but of intentional practice. > =============== You do not see the "roots of trees" development spoken of by the Buddha as a matter of lifestyle, but as a practice that can be undertaken by anyone, much like going on a retreat. I know of no support for that idea in the texts. > =============== > And, BTW, the bhikkhu's > "lifestyle" was certainly tailored by the Buddha towards progress. > =============== Yes, the monk's lifestyle is conducive to the development of the path if, but only if, it is properly led (I think you will find this qualification mentioned in the suttas), and this is a matter of sufficiently developed understanding and the appropriate accumulations. The Buddha did not urge all those who came to seek his advice to leave the household life. > =============== > This understanding can be developed regardless of one's current lifestyle > or activity. > ----------------------------------------------- > If by 'regardless' you mean "in spite of," I agree that this is the > case. But some conditions are more supportive than others. > =============== The most supportive conditions are the ones we've been discussing in this thread, and they are conditions that pertain regardless of one's present lifestyle (monk or layfollower). > =============== > The proposition that the conditions for the development of insight are > "created largely by human intention and intentional actions" is not one that I > readily recognise from my reading of the texts. If you have any sutta > passages that support this, those others may be interested to see them ;-)) > -------------------------------------------- > Too big of a task. There are LOADS of examples. But you can start at > the very beginning of the Dhammapada: > - - - - - - - - - - > > Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are > they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as > the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. > Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are > they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as > one's shadow that never leaves. > =============== These verses speak of the significance of kusala or akusala mindstates, not of what are conventionally known as intentional actions or the intention to generate kusala. Kusala mindstates are conditioned dhammas; they cannot be willed into being. Jon #98781 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/28/2009 12:28:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (98528) > =============== > Yes, kamma is intention. But the kamma/intention that brings the result > of contact with good people in this lifetime is kamma performed at a time > unrelated in conventional terms to the occurring of that result (and most > likely in a previous life, as I understand it). > -------------------------------------- > Well, I don't know. Some vipaka arises after aeons and some is > immediate, and there are all the intermediate possibilities. Kamma is complex, and > few details are available. > =============== Yes, some kamma brings its result within the same lifetime. But we were discussing the question of whether coming into contact with knowledgeable people in this lifetime is the result of the intention associated with deliberate action to make that situation occur. I'm not aware of anything in the texts that suggests this to be the case. ---------------------------------------------- Whew! ;-) What of your own experience, Jon? Have you never intentionally sought out knowledgeable people? You need a text to tell you this?! ------------------------------------------------ On the contrary, the verses of the elders seem to indicate that such association occurs generally as a result of kusala deeds performed in a previous life. ------------------------------------------------- Jon, the thought that comes to my mind about you is "He should get real!" ;-) And, Jon, kusala deeds are intentional. What about kusala deeds NOW, like intentionally seeking out great Dhamma teachers? ------------------------------------------------ If the intention to have kusala could be the condition for the arising of that kusala, or if intention to experience the result of kusala could be the condition for the experiencing of that result, it would hardly need a Buddha to explain the way out of samsara ;-)) ------------------------------------------------ Desire for wholesome results alone will not produce auspicious outcomes. Proper actions must be taken, and that action, based on wisdom, is volitional. ---------------------------------------------- > =============== > ;-)) But as someone who considers choice of language to be of > considerable importance, you do I'm sure appreciate any attempt at precision no matter > how "funny" the expression may seem. > ---------------------------------------- > I get that it's not a matter of mere choice of language but of > expressing your understanding. It is simply quite far from my understanding. > =============== Yes, it's a matter of differences in understanding, rather than of idiosyncratic means of expression. But to get back to the matter at issue, the Pali patipatti, usually translated as "practice", refers to actual moments of insight development, rather than to any activity undertaken with at view to conditioning the arising of moments of insight. -------------------------------------------- Yes, Jon, that is your opinion. It is not mine. That is the issue, is it not? Stating your view as fact doesn't make it fact. My view is that practice consists of many series of intentional actions. ---------------------------------------------- > =============== > Among the followers who became enlightened were those who sought out > "roots of trees" and those who did not. > ------------------------------------------ > Examples of the latter? > =============== Obvious examples of followers who became enlightened but were not among those who sought out "roots of trees" would be any enlightened lay followers: Anaathapindika, Upaali (see M 56), there would be dozens. Then there were many monks who were not seekers of roots of trees. ----------------------------------------------- What has happened to your love of accumulations, Jon? Their basis is past action! In any case, your position is clear: Whatever happens is random in the sense of human volition having no bearing on it. -------------------------------------------- > =============== My assumption is that whoever you might come > up with were folks who had lots of "tree work" as background, an activity > the Buddha always associated with urgency. > =============== To my knowledge, there is no basis in the texts for assuming that followers who were not described as forest dwellers (or similar) had had experience in developing samatha in remote places. That is a matter of following a particular lifestyle, not of simply "going on retreat" for a period, and it requires certain accumulated tendencies. ---------------------------------------------- I'm missing the point you are making here. What "lifestyle," following the monk's training? And was the lifestyle intentionally adopted? And how did these "accumulated tendencies" come about? ---------------------------------------------- > =============== > It is not the adoption of a particular form of lifestyle (forest-dwelling > monk, monastery-dwelling monk, or householder) or activity (doing whatever > at the roots of trees) that leads to enlightenment but the understanding of > the "this/that" conditionality taught by the Buddha. > ------------------------------------------- > Jon! I'm not talking about lifestyle, but of intentional practice. > =============== You do not see the "roots of trees" development spoken of by the Buddha as a matter of lifestyle, but as a practice that can be undertaken by anyone, much like going on a retreat. I know of no support for that idea in the texts. ------------------------------------------------- Was it I who spoke of "lifestyle" or you? Not me, so far as I know. But, in fact, a monk's life certainly is a lifestyle, is it not? BTW, I haven't gone on group retreats for years, though I have benefited from them. A retreat is simple a period of intensive practice. I prefer a solitary practice these days. ----------------------------------------------- > =============== > And, BTW, the bhikkhu's > "lifestyle" was certainly tailored by the Buddha towards progress. > =============== Yes, the monk's lifestyle is conducive to the development of the path if, but only if, it is properly led (I think you will find this qualification mentioned in the suttas), ----------------------------------------------- OF COURSE! What of it? ---------------------------------------------- and this is a matter of sufficiently developed understanding and the appropriate accumulations. ---------------------------------------------- Everything is based on conditions. Among the conditions for engaging in good practice are strong intention and dedication, and also faith that the Buddha's INSTRUCTIONS are useful. ------------------------------------------- The Buddha did not urge all those who came to seek his advice to leave the household life. --------------------------------------------- Uh, yeah. ----------------------------------------- > =============== > This understanding can be developed regardless of one's current lifestyle > or activity. > ----------------------------------------------- > If by 'regardless' you mean "in spite of," I agree that this is the > case. But some conditions are more supportive than others. > =============== The most supportive conditions are the ones we've been discussing in this thread, and they are conditions that pertain regardless of one's present lifestyle (monk or layfollower). > =============== > The proposition that the conditions for the development of insight are > "created largely by human intention and intentional actions" is not one that I > readily recognise from my reading of the texts. If you have any sutta > passages that support this, those others may be interested to see them ;-)) > -------------------------------------------- > Too big of a task. There are LOADS of examples. But you can start at > the very beginning of the Dhammapada: > - - - - - - - - - - > > Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are > they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as > the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. > Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are > they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as > one's shadow that never leaves. > =============== These verses speak of the significance of kusala or akusala mindstates, not of what are conventionally known as intentional actions or the intention to generate kusala. Kusala mindstates are conditioned dhammas; they cannot be willed into being. ----------------------------------------- Humans might as well be rocks, it seems to me is your perspective. ;-) Intention strikes me as a cetasika you would love to remove from the lists. But intention is *paramount*! Again, at the start of the Dhammapada there is the following: Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves. In the foregoing, 'mind' refers to intention and intentional action, i.e., to kamma. In that regard, see the following found at _http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/_ (http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/) : _______________________________________ Dhammapada Verse 1 Cakkhupalatthera Vatthu Manopubbangama dhamma1 manosettha manomaya manasa ce padutthena2 bhasati va karoti va tato nam dukkhamanveti cakkamva vahato padam. Verse 1: All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner; they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made. If one speaks or acts with an evil mind, 'dukkha' 3 follows him just as the wheel follows the hoofprint of the ox that draws the cart. ____________________________________ 1. manopubbangama dhamma: All mental phenomena have Mind as their forerunner in the sense that Mind is the most dominant, and it is the cause of the other three mental phenomena, namely, Feeling (vedana), Perception (sanna) and Mental Formations or Mental Concomitants (sankhara). These three have Mind or Consciousness (vinnana) as their forerunner, because although they arise simultaneously with Mind they cannot arise if Mind does not arise. (The Commentary) 2. manasa ce padutthena (Verse 1) and manasi ce pasannena (Verse 2): Manasa here means intention or volition (cetana); volition leads one to the performance of volitional actions, both good and evil. This volition and the resultant actions constitute kamma; and kamma always follows one to produce results. Cakkhupala's blindness (Verse 1) was the consequence of his having acted with an evil intention in a previous existence and Matthakundali's happy existence in Tavatimsa celestial world (Verse 2) was the result of his mental devotion (manopasada) to the Buddha. 3. dukkha: In this context, dukkha mens suffering, or physical or mental pain, misfortune, unsatisfactoriness, evil consequences, etc., and rebirth in the lower planes of existence or in the lower strata of human society if born in the human world. ____________________________________ The Story of Thera Cakkhupala While residing at the Jetavana monastery in Savatthi, the Buddha uttered Verse (1) of this book, with reference to Cakkhupala, a blind thera. On one occasion, Thera Cakkhupala came to pay homage to the Buddha at the Jetavana monastery. One night, while pacing up and down in meditation, the thera accidentally stepped on some insects. In the morning, some bhikkhus visiting the thera found the dead insects. They thought ill of the thera and reported the matter to the Buddha. The Buddha asked them whether they had seen the thera killing the insects. When they answered in the negative, the Buddha said, "Just as you had not seen him killing, so also he had not seen those living insects. Besides, as the thera had already attained arahatship he could have no intention of killing and so was quite innocent." On being asked why Cakkhupala was blind although he was an arahat, the Buddha told the following story: Cakkhupala was a physician in one of his past existences. Once, he had deliberately made a woman patient blind. That woman had promised him to become his slave, together with her children, if her eyes were completely cured. Fearing that she and her children would have to become slaves, she lied to the physician. She told him that her eyes were getting worse when, in fact, they were perfectly cured. The physician knew she was deceiving him, so in revenge, he gave her another ointment, which made her totally blind. As a result of this evil deed the physician lost his eyesight many times in his later existences. Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 1: All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner; they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made. If one speaks or acts with an evil mind, 'dukkha' follows him just as the wheel follows the hoofprint of the ox that draws the cart. At the end of the discourse, thirty thousand bhikkhus attained arahatship together with Analytical Insight (Patisambhida). ----------------------------------------- Jon ============================ With metta, Howard Kamma /"A fool is characterized by his/her actions. A wise person is characterized by his/her actions. It's through the activities of one's life that one's discernment shines. "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a fool. Which three? Bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct... "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a wise person. Which three? Good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct... "Thus, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will avoid the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a fool. We will undertake & maintain the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a wise person.' That's how you should train yourselves."/ (From Anguttara Nikaya 3.2) #98782 From: "m_nease" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:01 pm Subject: To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) m_nease Hi Alberto (Connie & All), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: > A: The two truths can only be told (akkh si) by words (vac na), very much like lies, but hearing the truths, unlike hearing lies or even half-truths, can condition (with yoniso manasikara, proper considering what one's hearing) the arising of satipatthana, where words have no meaning (i.e. no paññatti), the whole lot being just a single dhamma, sadda rammana/ yatana (or rùpa, if reading them). I found this very interesting, I don't recall hearing it put just this way before. Still, pa~n~natti can't be the base of satipa.t.thaana even in the former case (of 'hearing the truths'), would it? I would think that what would condition the arising of satipa.t.thaana (with yoniso manasikaara) in this case wouldn't be the concepts expressed (even though true) but rather the 'truths' (dhammas) referred to by vacana. Does this sound right to you? Thanks again. mike #98783 From: "colette" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 7. ksheri3 Good Day Nina, I like this one. While I'm realizing a Anuttarayoga Tantra, at the moment (if there can be such a thing), I thought your reply was rather humourous: > N: Seeing is a reality, it sees visible pobject and it can be > directly known when it appears, now. colette: lets take the example that a former member of the rock group Genesis used in one of his songs: "the light I see in your eyes" and this, your statement, works directly with what I was suggesting a few days or weeks ago. You suggest that "seeing" is an object that has qualities of visibility, THEREFORE IT IS A RUPA, a tangible object. The lyrics suggest that some sort of light is projected outward, EXTERNALLY, from a person's eye or eyes which proves that the eyes are not passively receiving but activily PROJECTING, and in this case it is a "light". First we must decide if any and all light is tangible, before we go about deciding the light issued by this phenomenal person's eye or eyes. Can I or you easily reach out and grab some light? What is light? What is ILLUMINATION? If I may: "At first sight, the PERFECTION OF WISDOM is bewildering, full of paradox and apparent irrationality yet once one accepts that trying to unravel these texts without experiencing the intuitions behind them is not satisfactory, it becomes clear that paradox and irrationality are the only means of conveying to the reader those underlying intuitions that would otherwise be impossible to express. Edward Conze succinctly summarized what THE PERFECTION OF WISDOM is about, saying, 'The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences: 1) one should become a bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings. 2) There is no such thing as a bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a 'being', or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment. To accept both of these contradictory facts is to be perfect.'" and to sum up the mess we are dealing with here: > Reality can be directly experienced without > using names. colette: interesting? How so? The answer should somehow work easily into the paragraph I'm avoiding in the text which I quoted above from R.C. Jamieson's THE PERFECTION OF WISDOM. that paragraph is easily reduced to the first line in the paragraph: "The central idea of THE PERFECTION OF WISDOM is complete release from the world of existence." since my note to that sentence is just as simple: "Astral Projection" Good to see you but this was a bit old and I was onto new topics through the absense of Sarah so I guess I've gotta sift through the msg. board. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Colette, > Op 18-jun-2009, om 19:01 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > > > If some people consider that only one reality can be known at one > > time then I've gotta ask: > > > > what are the parameters and definitions of REALITY? <...> > > > > what the hell is a singular reality? > ------- > N: Seeing is a reality, it sees visible pobject and it can be > directly known when it appears, now. At the moment of seeing there > cannot be hearing at the same time. > You will understand what a reality is when there is mindfulness of > what appears at the present moment. When we speak about it, there are > only words and names. Reality can be directly experienced without > using names. #98784 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:14 pm Subject: 10 Paramis szmicio Dear friends, Are the 10 paramis include in Theravada tradition? Are there any texts that are pointing 10 paramis? What about Jatakas and commentaries to Jatakas? My best wishes Lukas #98785 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Immediate rebirth christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Scott) - > The paper at > _http://www.c2rc.org/papers/C2RC2008-P2S3-ModernScholars'Persp-MaxDeeg.pdf_ > (http://www.c2rc.org/papers/C2RC2008-P2S3-ModernScholars'Persp-MaxDeeg.pdf) is relevant to this matter. BTW, it references a paper > by "our" Rob Moult! :-) > > With metta, > Howard > > P. S. In The Selfless Mind, Peter Harvey points to two Pali suttas that are > suggestive of an intermediate state. Hello Howard, The links to Rob Moults paper don't seem to be working (for me at least). metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #98786 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Immediate rebirth upasaka_howard Hi, Chris - In a message dated 6/28/2009 5:18:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cjforsyth1@... writes: Hello Howard, The links to Rob Moults paper don't seem to be working (for me at least). metta Chris ================================== I see no link to his paper, but I did see the following: _http://www.c2rc.org/synopsis.php_ (http://www.c2rc.org/synopsis.php) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98787 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Immediate rebirth christine_fo... Hello all, You may be interested in reading this by the scholar Piya Tan (formerly a Theravada Bhikkhu): Is Rebirth Immediate? A Study of Canonical Sources (16 pages) http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/2.17Isr...ediate.piya.pdf metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #98788 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Immediate rebirth christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello all, > > You may be interested in reading this by the scholar Piya Tan (formerly a Theravada Bhikkhu): > > Is Rebirth Immediate? A Study of Canonical Sources (16 pages) > http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/2.17Isr...ediate.piya.pdf > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > Hello all, If that doesn't work, maybe try this link: http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:EXWoyC9Doe8J:dharmafarer.googlepages.com/2.1\ 7Isrebirthimmediate.piya.pdf+is+rebirth+immediate&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&lr=la\ ng_en metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #98789 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking kenhowardau Hi Howard ------------- <. . .> KH: >> . . . right understanding is not gained through any kind of ritualistic sitting. It is gained through hearing the Buddha's teaching. H: > What is "ritualistic" sitting? Is there "ritualistic" listening to the Dhamma? Is there "ritualistic" contemplation of the Dhamma? ------------- I agree that all conventional activities are capable of being performed as a ritual. It depends on the reality (paramattha dhamma) at the time. If, at the time, there is belief in an inherent efficacy of conventional activity then the activity is being performed as a ritual. ----------------------- H: > When the Buddha's bhikkhus sat in caves, in abandoned dwellings, and at the roots of trees, engaged in meditation as he urged them to do, were they engaged in "ritual," ----------------------- The bhikkhus who had attained Stream-entry would have been incapable of ritualistic behaviour. They had permanently broken the fetter of silabbatparamasa. The others, however, would almost certainly have had moments of silabbatparamasa. They would have known in theory that there were only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. However they would also have had moments of wrong view, in which they imagined caves and sitting to have some sort of ultimate reality. ---------------------------------------- H: > and did the Buddha ever, in any sutta, describe jhana cultivation as "ritual"? ----------------------------------------- I would say, yes and no. Whenever he spoke of jhana cultivation he was describing certain ultimate kusala realities. (And so, no, there was no reference then to ritual) However, he did say that, for some people, any attempt at jhana would be a mere ritual. I am thinking of the sutta in which a monk adopted an ascetic lifestyle despite the Buddha's advice not to. He learned the hard way that jhana cultivation was not for him. -------------------------- H: > As an aside, I believe that the defilement of silabbatparamasa is not engaging in purposeful actions, which may or may not have salutary effect depending on the specifics, but clinging to them as magic. -------------------------- As you know, I believe that the Buddha's teaching was *always* a description of fleeting conditioned dhammas (which are arising now). Any talk about conventional activities was just part of a teaching method he sometimes adopted. ------------------------------------ <. . .> H: > As I view the matter, what makes an activity a ritual is ones's attitude - one's mind. ------------------------------------- That's the way I see it too. However, my attitude to formal meditation is different from yours. I don't see it as connected in any way to the development of satipatthana. I don't see it being mentioned in the suttas as a factor leading to enlightenment. On the other hand there are some conventional activities that I do see as connected. Attending Dhamma discussion meetings, is one. Thinking about the Dhamma is another. Sitting cross-legged in secluded places is not a factor leading to enlightenment. As we have said, it is not always a ritual, but it is nonetheless not a factor leading to enlightenment. Ken H #98790 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Immediate rebirth upasaka_howard Hi, Chris - In a message dated 6/28/2009 6:34:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cjforsyth1@... writes: Hello all, If that doesn't work, maybe try this link: ... ================================ Thanks. This 2nd link worked for me. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #98791 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 6/28/2009 7:05:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Sitting cross-legged in secluded places is not a factor leading to enlightenment. As we have said, it is not always a ritual, but it is nonetheless not a factor leading to enlightenment. ============================= I don't sit cross-legged, but slightly reclining in an easy chair! ;-)) I guess it's the easy chair that is my magic! LOL! With metta, Howard Samatha & Vipassana /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) #98792 From: A T Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking truth_aerator Hi Ken and all, >"kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Hi Howard >I agree that all conventional activities are capable of being >performed as a ritual. It depends on the reality (paramattha dhamma) >at >the time. If, at the time, there is belief in an inherent >efficacy of >conventional activity then the activity is being >performed as a ritual. What if one meditates without any belief in self, control, efficacy of conventional reality? This is proper meditation. > ----------------------- >H: > When the Buddha's bhikkhus sat in caves, in abandoned >dwellings, > and > at the roots of trees, engaged in meditation as he urged them to do, > were > they engaged in "ritual," > ----------------------- > > The bhikkhus who had attained Stream-entry would have been >incapable of ritualistic behaviour. So they meditate correctly, right? Or are you going to re-educate them because they were not following Buddha's teaching, by going into seclusion and meditating in caves, under the tree, forests, cemeteries and so on? > They would have known in theory that there were only the presently > arisen conditioned dhammas. However they would also have had >moments >of wrong view, in which they imagined caves and sitting to >have some >sort of ultimate reality. What about meditators who do not imagine caves as being "ultimate reality" ? > > ---------------------------------------- > H: > and did the Buddha ever, in any sutta, describe > jhana cultivation as "ritual"? > ----------------------------------------- > >Whenever he spoke of jhana cultivation he was describing certain >ultimate kusala realities. And what produces jhana? >(And so, no, there was no reference then to ritual) However, he did >say that, for some people, any attempt at jhana would be a mere >ritual. Same can be said for some other people as well who believe that by reading, thinking and proliferating that they can SEE the realities and drop the fetters. > Sitting cross-legged in secluded places is not a factor leading to > enlightenment. As we have said, it is not always a ritual, but it is > nonetheless not a factor leading to enlightenment. > > Ken H Ken, have you read my posts on meditation? Proper meditation is about non-doing (through wise understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta), disengaging self-views and relinquishing attachments. When you sit down and close your eyes, you are temporarily relinquishing sights. When you sit in a place outside of smells and activity, you are relinquishing smells and things 'to do'. When you watch the breath and you don't control it, you are relinquishing that aspect of control. You refine the mind's awareness and can focus more and more on the arising & ceasing of mental states. The more the mind lets go, the deeper into peace and tranquillity the mind goes. The more control you try to do (Let me reach this or that Jhana! Where is awakening! I want to awaken) the more disturbed the meditation is. The meditation is a great place to see Anatta-in-action. Mental states are out of control. *I* cannot will this or that mind states. Hindrances happen regardless of the wish to the contrary. So what is left to do is to give up control. This giving up of control is anatta as well. But as the 'giving up' happens, hindrances start to fall away. The reasons for hindrances is the deluded Self view, and delusive Self feeling, Self intention, and Selfish intention to control. Sensual desire, restlessness, and doubt may keep one from meditating at all! This just shows how much hindrances are in non-meditators. It takes a lot of relinquishment (through proper understanding) to be able to sit down and calm down the delusion of Self & The Doer. When there is Self delusion, there is 'doing' of this and that. You know dishes have to be washed, the garden needs to be taken care of, one has to "read the Abhidhamma to 'understand the realities'" so on and so forth. For many this is the example of doing. Proper and succesful meditation is the ability to let go off doing. A very hard thing for some to do. Reading Abhidhamma for some can be an ego trip like [misused] meditation for some misguided mis-meditators. Remember, the Self (or control, or any doing) is not a factor, it is an obstacle for proper Buddhist, meditation. Reading as a path to awakening is similiar to Hindu Beliefs (ex: Jnana Yoga) while deep and proper meditation is exclusively Buddhist. Buddha has awoken to (some translate "Discovered") Jhana SN 2.7 The Jain leader doubted the possibility of 2nd Jhana at all. SN 41.8 Buddha to be remembered his Jhana experience after unsuccessful attempts atawakening using other peoples methods. MN36 The Buddha couldn't practice Jhana following a common practice of bodily mortification. Another extreme practice (of sensual gratification) also doesn't support Jhana. Bodily mortification & sensual indulgence were the two most common practices known to people of those times. Only the Middle Path, discovered by Buddha, supports Jhana and teaches Jhana as samma-samadhi. The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness." - SN22.5 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.005.than.html They will surely reach the far shore [Nibbana] like a fish when the net is cut, Who having attained the jhanas, are diligent with flaws discarded." - SN 2.11 Jhana IS the path to awakening - MN36 Jhana Is what Buddha awakened to. AN9.42 & SN2.7 Jhana Is Practiced by awakened ones: Dhp 23 Jhana Leads to 4 fruits: From Stream to Arhatship. (DN29) Jhana Is Right Concentration - SN 45.8 Ending of Mental Fermentations depend on Jhana - AN 9.36 Samadhi is proximate condition to "knowledge and vision of things as they really are" - SN12.23 Jhana is the only 4 Meditative absorptions thay Buddha praised. -MN108 Jhana goes together with discernment (panna): Dhp 372 Jhana Is a mark of a great discernment, great man - AN4.35 Jhana is the escape from confinement. AN 9.42 Released through Panna (Pannavimutti) = Jhanas 1-9 AN 9.44 7 Parts of Noble 8Fold path are support for Jhana- MN117 Thus, verily, monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the no-whither way. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo AN6.64 "Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." The Buddha has recomended Jhana for trainees - MN107 It is *impossible* to break 5 lower and 5 upper fetters without Jhana (and insight after it). - MN64 Jhana + discernment is a single thing that can lead one to Arhatship - AN 11.17 MN Suttas that mention Jhana: 1,4, 6, 8, 13, 19, 35, 30, 31, 36, 38, 43, 45, 53, 53, 59, 64, 65, 66, 76, 77, 78, 79, 85, 106, 107, 108, 111, 112, 113, 119, 121, 128, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141,152 DN# 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,16,17,22, 19,26,27, 29, 31, 32 === With metta, Alex #98793 From: "colette" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) ksheri3 Pardon me, why is this my elbow Naw, a But-in-sky is from Poland the best I could do is from Lithuania My elbow is just the kusala hallucination which offers me the chance to enter in this discussion. ;) lol Hi Jon, and who's this, Howard, Hi Howard, I have a thing or two to say about that and/or this. Please, let me remind you that I am a former champion holder of the trophy of ignorance in Buddhist doctrine so allow me that curtosy. Now I'm fully aware that this is a buddhist forum specifically focusing on Buddhist teachings but in this case, as in sooooo many other cases, the Jewish doctrines on/in Kaballah give us such clarity as in CLEAR LIGHT, etc. We in Buddhism can easily accept the concept of IGNORANCE and anticipate the fact that we, each in our own way, possess IGNORANCE yet I'm more than willing to allow some egomaniacs to exist in the Buddhist community that simply think of themselves and their interpretations as being flawless. The same schmucks exist in judeaism, in christianity, and in muslims i.e. Taliban. Like the Blue Pancake of consciousness it covers all peoples and all sentient beings. ... The problem I see with this non-sense about having the luck to run into "good" people or intelligent people or whatever is nothing more than, as it was recorded in Nashville by Bonnie Raite, THE LUCK OF THE DRAW, it simply just happened. Now I know there are countless Abhidharma followers out there that are not nor will not be satisfied until each and every little number is properly placed in it's proper position on the "Balance Sheet" as they learned in ACCOUNTING 100. But, until we as a community get the proper scientific knowledge to be able to rationally and reasonably speak of such potentials as the entire universe potentially able to be solved in a simple mathematical equation, until we get there scientifically we are then left to NOT CLINGING TO FALSEWITNESS AND FALSEHOODS, do not CLING TO LIES, DO NOT CLING TO THE DHARMA, etc. While it is possible, in a longshot and an outside longshot at that, it is possible that a fruitless discussion such as this would yield up some valuable information and conections I think that it would only serve to mis-lead and mis-direct the average student by causing their clinging tendencies of psychology and personality to immerge and give them false hope. Bob Hope and False Hope may in fact be related but that's another story. Hope my opinion did more than muddy the waters. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Howard > > (98528) > > =============== > > Yes, kamma is intention. But the kamma/intention that brings the result > > of contact with good people in this lifetime is kamma performed at a time > > unrelated in conventional terms to the occurring of that result (and most #98794 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:49 pm Subject: Calm and Insight! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Breathing Meditation was used by all Buddhas to Awaken! It has aspects both of meditative calm (Samatha ) and penetrating insight (Vipassana ). It is extraordinarily advantageous to always return to this wonderful breathing technique. Can recommend this booklet about standard Anapanasati Breathing Meditation very much: "Mindfulness of Breathing" Classic Anapanasati meditation manual of the root Pali texts translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli. BPS. 1998. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404502 The optimum is when C alm and Insight goes hand in hand, as if yoked together! More on this both simple and quite complex Breathing Meditation: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/The_LAMP_I.htm ... More on Insight (Vipassanā ): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Calm_and_Insight.htm ... Have a nice calm and insightful day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Breathing Calm and Insight! #98795 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:41 pm Subject: Immediate Rebirth nichiconn Hi Chris, Scott, i think we'd agree that there are only the "three periods of time" and that each follows immediately one upon or after the other? reckon 'intermediate' applies to any given one of the three in relation to the other two. minor collection, path of discrimination: 275. In being-as-action before [this life] there is delusion, which is ignorance; there is accumulations, which is formations; there is attachment, which is craving; there is adoption, which is clinging; there is volition, which is being; thus these five ideas in being-as-action before [this life] are conditions for rebirth-linking here [in the present life]. Here [in the present life] there is rebirth-linking, which is consciousness; there is precipitation [in the womb], which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is base [for contact]; there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling; thus these five ideas in being-as-rearising here have their conditions in action (kamma) done in the past. Here [in the present life] with the maturing of the bases there is delusion, which is ignorance; there is accumulation, which is formations; there is attachment, which is craving; there is adoption, which is clinging; there is volition, which is being; thus these five ideas in being-as-action here are conditions for rebirth-linking in the future. In the future there is rebirth-linking, which is consciousness; there is precipitation [in the womb], which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is base [for contact]; there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling; thus these five ideas-in-being-as-rearising in the future have their conditions in action (kamma) done here [in the present life]. So he knows, sees, recognizes, penetrates, the four generalizations [of past cause, present result, present cause, future result], the three periods of time, and the dependent origination with three links, doing so in these twenty modes [with five modes in each generalization]. 276. Knowledge is in the sense of that being known and understanding is in the sense of the act of understanding that. Hence it was said: 'Understanding of embracing conditions is knowledge of the causal relationship of ideas'. I suppose the so-called 'intermediate being' might have something to do with the death proximate consciousness and gati nimitta. I don't really see any other room to squeeze it into this other list, either: 223. How is it that understanding of applying the ear thus: This is the noble actuality of suffering, this is the noble actuality of the origin of suffering, this is the noble actuality of the cessation of suffering, this is the noble actuality of the way leading to the cessation of suffering, is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt)? 224. Herein, what is the noble actuality of suffering? Birth is suffering, ageing is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering, association with the unloved is suffering, separation form the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering, in short the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging are suffering. 225. Herein, what is birth? In the various orders of being the birth of beings, their coming to birth, descent (into a womb), reproduction, manifestation of aggregates, acquisition of bases [for consciousness], is what is called birth (S ii 3). 226. Herein, what is ageing? In the various orders of beings the ageing of beings, their old age, state of broken teeth, grey hair and wrinkles, thier decline of life and weakening faculties, is what is called ageing (S ii 2). 227. [38] Herein, what is death? In the various orders of beings the passing of beings, their passing away, break-up, disappearance, dying, completing their time, break-up of the aggregates, laying down of the corpse, interruption of the life faculty, is what is called death (cf S ii 3). where's the story about the devas out for the day & one died and ... came back the same day? peace, connie #98796 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:04 pm Subject: Re: Immediate rebirth christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello all, > > I wonder if someone can clarify this for me please - what is the scriptural basis for instantaneous rebirth? Is immediate rebirth mentioned anywhere in the Sutta Pitaka? > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > Hello Connie, all, ============== BEGIN QUOTE >"Connie said: >Hi Chris, Scott, >i think we'd agree that there are only the "three periods of time" >and that each >follows immediately one upon or after the other? >reckon 'intermediate' applies >to any given one of the three in relation to the other two. >minor collection, path of discrimination: >275. In being-as-action before [this life] there is delusion, which is ignorance; there is accumulations, which is formations; there is attachment, which is craving; there is adoption, which is clinging; there is volition, which >is being; thus these five ideas in being-as-action before [this life] are conditions for rebirth-linking here [in the present life]. Here [in the present life] there is rebirth-linking, which is consciousness; >there is precipitation [in the womb], which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is base [for contact]; there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling; thus these five ideas in >being-as-rearising here have their conditions in action (kamma) done in the past. Here [in the present life] with the maturing of the bases there is delusion, which is ignorance; there is accumulation, which is formations; there is >attachment, which is craving; there is adoption, which is clinging; there is volition, which is being; thus these five ideas in being-as-action here are conditions for rebirth-linking in the future. >In the future there is rebirth-linking, which is consciousness; there is precipitation [in the womb], which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is base [for contact]; there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling; thus these five ideas-in-being-as-rearising in the future have their conditions in action (kamma) done here [in the present life]. >So he knows, sees, recognizes, penetrates, the four generalizations [of past cause, present result, present cause, future result], the three periods of time, and the dependent origination with three links, doing so in these twenty modes [with five modes in each generalization]. >276. Knowledge is in the sense of that being known and understanding is in the sense of the act of understanding that. Hence it was >said: 'Understanding of embracing conditions is knowledge of the causal relationship of ideas'. >I suppose the so-called 'intermediate being' might have something to >do with the death proximate consciousness and gati nimitta. >I don't really see any other room to squeeze it into this other list, either: >223. How is it that understanding of applying the ear thus: This is the noble actuality of suffering, this is the noble actuality of the origin of suffering, >this is the noble actuality of the cessation of suffering, this is the noble actuality of the way leading to the cessation of suffering, is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt)? >224. Herein, what is the noble actuality of suffering? Birth is suffering, ageing is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering, association with the unloved is suffering, separation >form the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering, in short the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging are suffering. >225. Herein, what is birth? In the various orders of being the birth of beings, their coming to birth, descent (into a womb), reproduction, manifestation of >aggregates, acquisition of bases [for consciousness], is what is called birth (S ii 3). >226. Herein, what is ageing? In the various orders of beings the ageing of beings, their old age, state of broken teeth, grey hair and wrinkles, thier >decline of life and weakening faculties, is what is called ageing (S ii 2). >227. [38] Herein, what is death? In the various orders of beings the passing of beings, their passing away, break-up, disappearance, dying, completing their >time, break-up of the aggregates, laying down of the corpse, interruption of the life faculty, is what is called death (cf S ii 3). >where's the story about the devas out for the day & one died and ... came back the same day? peace, connie" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/98795 END QUOTE ========================================================== Without wanting to be difficult, it seems that my first post was a little unclear. This is the bit I would be interested in receiving answers to: ===== ~~Is immediate rebirth mentioned anywhere in the Sutta Pitaka?~~ ===== I place a lot more importance on the Buddhavacana in the Suttas above the additions of the later commentarial teachings. And such an important point as "immediate rebirth" would surely be mentioned many times in the 45 year teaching career of the Blessed One. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #98797 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:08 pm Subject: Re: Immediate rebirth christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Without wanting to be difficult, it seems that my first post was a little unclear. > > This is the bit I would be interested in receiving answers to: > ===== > ~~Is immediate rebirth mentioned anywhere in the Sutta Pitaka?~~ > ===== > I place a lot more importance on the Buddhavacana in the Suttas above the additions of the later commentarial teachings. > > And such an important point as "immediate rebirth" would surely be mentioned many times in the 45 year teaching career of the Blessed One. > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > Hello all, I thought you might be interested in the response from the Venerable Bhikkh Bodhi: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There definitely seem to be suggestions in the suttas that there is a temporal gap, an intermediate state, between lives, at least with respect to rebirth in the human realm and in the case of non-returners. I have a long note to the Connected Discourses of the Buddha (Samyutta Nikaya), chapter 46, which explores this question in regard to the fivefold distinction among non-returners. I will paste it in below. The position that rebirth is instantaneous is strongly maintained by the Theravada commentaries, but other schools of Indian Buddhism based on the early collections (pre-Mahayana) supported an intermediate state. This became a ground of contention among the Buddhist schools, sometimes generating a lot of emotional friction, but the issue seems to be given very little importance in the early discourses. Nevertheless, there are passages that suggest (quite clearly, in my opinion) that there is an intermediate state. For example, the famous Metta Sutta speaks of extending loving-kindness to 'bhuutaa vaa sambhavesii vaa' -- "to beings who have come to be and those about to come to be" -- and the suttas on nutriment say that the four kinds of nutriment are "for the maintence of those that have come to be and to assist those about to come to be." Those beings that are sambhavesii, "about to come to be" (or "seeking existence") must be an allusion to those in the intermediate state seeking a new rebirth. I have also found evidence for beings in this state from the reported rebirth memories of people who (without meditative experience) can recollect their previous life and death. Several cases I have read of this type report that the being, after passing away, spends some time moving about in a subtle body (identical in form with their previous body, hence with a sense of the same personal identity) until they find themselves drawn towards a particular couple, who then become their new parents. Some cases like this are included in Francis Story's book, Rebirth as Doctrine and Experience (published by the Buddhist Publcation Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka). See too Peter Harvey's book, The Selfless Mind (Curzon) which I refer to in the note below. 65 This fivefold typology of nonreturners recurs at 48:15, 24, 66; 51:26; 54:5; and 55:25. Spk explains the antarparinibbyı ("attainer of Nibbna in the interval") as one reborn in the Pure Abodes who attains arahantship during the first half of the life span. This type is subdivided into three, depending on whether arahantship is reached: (i) on the very day of rebirth; (ii) after one or two hundred aeons have elapsed; or (iii) after four hundred aeons have elapsed. The upahaccaparinibbyı ("attainer of Nibbna upon landing") is explained as one who attains arahantship after passing the first half of the life span. For Spk, the asakhraparinibbyı ("attainer without exertion") and the sasakhraparinibbyı ("attainer with exertion") then become two modes in which the first two types of nonreturners attain the goal. This explanation originates from Pp 1617 (commented on at Pp-a 198201). However, not only does this account of the first two types disregard the literal meaning of their names, but it also overrides the sequential and mutually exclusive nature of the five types as delineated elsewhere in the suttas (see below). If we understand the term antarparinibbyı literally, as it seems we should, it then means one who attains Nibbna in the interval between two lives, perhaps while existing in a subtle body in the intermediate state. The upahaccaparinibbyı then becomes one who attains Nibbna "upon landing" or "striking ground" in the new existence, i.e., almost immediately after taking rebirth. The next two terms designate two types who attain arahantship in the course of the next life, distinguished by the amount of effort they must make to win the goal. The last, the uddha˙sota akani˛˛hagmı, is one who takes rebirth in successive Pure Abodes, completes the full life span in each, and finally attains arahantship in the Akani˛˛ha realm, the highest Pure Abode. This interpretation, adopted by several non-Theravda schools of early Buddhism, seems to be confirmed by the Purisagati Sutta (AN IV 7074), in which the simile of the flaming chip suggests that the seven types (including the three kinds of antarparinibbyı) are mutually exclusive and have been graded according to the sharpness of their faculties. Additional support comes from AN II 134,2529, which explains the antarparinibbyı as one who has abandoned the fetter of rebirth (upapattisa˙yojana) without yet having abandoned the fetter of existence (bhavasa˙yojana). Though the Theravdin proponents argue against this interpretation of antarparinibbyı (e.g., at Kv 366), the evidence from the suttas leans strongly in its favour. For a detailed discussion, see Harvey, The Selfless Mind, pp. 98108. AN II 15556 draws an alternative distinction between the sasakhraparinibbyı and the asakhraparinibbyı: the former reaches arahantship through meditation on the "austere" meditation subjects such as the foulness of the body, the perception of the repulsiveness of food, discontent with the whole world, the perception of impermanence in all formations, and mindfulness of death; the latter, through the four jhnas. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #98798 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:44 pm Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, We believe that right understanding of nma and rpa is what we value most highly in life, but is this true? We should be sincere and get to know our own accumulations. Dont we find our work and our relaxation more important than the development of right understanding? If there is sati-sampajaa which sees the value of awareness of realities right understanding can develop during the time we are working and also during the time of relaxation. There are nma and rpa all the time, no-matter where we are. There can be a beginning of the study of them when they appear. We do not have to go to a quiet place and change our usual way of life in order to develop understanding. When there is desire for awareness it will hinder the development of understanding of our life, of our accumulations. We have accumulated attachment to pleasant things, we like to go to concerts or watch T.V. We should learn to see that in such situations there are only dhammas, realities, which arise because of their own conditions. If we do not get to know lobha as it is, as only a conditioned reality, enlightenment cannot be attained and defilements cannot be eradicated. The second sampajaa, sappya-sampajaa, is knowing what is suitable, fitting to oneself. This sampajaa appertains to our bodily health as well as to the development of kusala. We know that we should not neglect our bodily health and therefore we should know what is suitable for us in order to avoid sickness and to live in comfort. We should find out, for example, what is the right kind of food for us and what not. What is suitable for one person may not be suitable for another person. We need sappya-sampajaa in order to know the right conditions for our bodily health. We also need sappya- sampajaa in order to know the right conditions for the development of kusala. Those who have accumulations to develop samatha should know the particular conditions which have to be fulfilled in order to develop calm. Most important is right understanding which knows precisely when the citta is kusala and when akusala, otherwise calm cannot be developed. Sappya-sampajaa is needed in order to know which of the meditation subjects is suitable to oneself so that calm can grow. The meditation on corpses, for example, is not suitable for everybody, for some people this subject conditions aversion or fear. If one has accumulations to develop calm to the degree of jhna one has to live in a secluded place. One needs sappya-sampajaa in order to find out which place is suitable to oneself. ****** Nina. #98799 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:56 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 7. nilovg Dear Colette, Op 28-jun-2009, om 20:23 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > N: Seeing is a reality, it sees visible pobject and it can be > directly known when it appears, now. > C: You suggest that "seeing" is an object that has qualities of > visibility, THEREFORE IT IS A RUPA, a tangible object. ------- N: Not so. Seeing is naama, it knows or experiences something: visible object. Tangible object is different from visible object, it cannot be experienced by seeing, but by the naama that is body- consciousness. Nina.