#100000 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:53 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: space, continued. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- On Sun, 9/8/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > In the Abhidhamattha Sangaha, transl by Ven. Narada, p. > 294, a remark > about outer space. nothingness. > As such it is eternal. Aakaasa is a dhaatu in the sense of > a non- > entity (nijjiiva), not as an existing element like the four > essentials.> > N: Nijjiiva is: non-life or 'soul'. His translation is not > correct. > By eternal he means, I think, not arising and falling > away. > ------ .... S: A little confusing, but I think the point is that the aakaasa ruupa which has the function of delimiting the kalaapas of ruupa, i.e the minute space surrounding each kalapa, (pariccheda meaning limit), is not the outer or open space. This outer space is still a dhaatu, but doesn't arise and fall as you suggest he means. Thank you for reminding me of the Topics of Abh comy which I quoted in the article about 'delimiting' or 'delimited'. ... ." > ------- > N: It is not so clear whether we should see the Kathavatthu > text is > merely directed towards the Uttaraapathakas and > Mahi.msaasakas or > does it categorically pertain to space that is not the > pariccheda rupa? > ------- S: I think we need to keep in mind the context of the Katthavatthu and why it was taught at this time, i.e. around the schism at the 3rd Council, because of the heretical views of the various sects of the Sangha. ... > As to the text of the mahaaraahulovadasutta, I compared > with the Co, > more about pariccheda ruupa. The Buddha explained this rupa > by means > of examples of hollows in the body so that Raahula would > not be > attached to the body. ... S: Yes, but I think we can appreciate that these are not just concepts about concepts but concepts pointing to the rupa elements, such as the space in the nose, ears, mouth, internal organs - all of which we take, along with the other elements, for 'my body' or 'the other's body' that is so important. As Azita and Ken O were discussing, we fear about losing 'this body' and fear about what the 'next body' will be. We forget that there are only different elements, including the element of the open spaces of the body. I find it helpful to reflect on this. ... From your translation of the commentary: > Before he had spoken about the four great Elements, not > about the > derived physical phenomena. > Therefore, in order to point these out in that way, he > explained in > detail the element of space. > He also made known the matter that is delimitated by the > internal space. .... S: This is pariccheda aakaasa ... > --------- > With regard to the element of space, the expression, > “connected with > spaceâ€Â means: having the characteristic of > emptiness. > As to the expression, clung to, this means, clung to, > grasped and > misapprehended. The meaning is that it refers to the bodily > frame. > As to the expression, cavity in the ear, this means, an > opening in > the ear, not touched by flesh and blood, etc. > With regard to cavity in the nose etc. this is also > according to the > same system of teaching. .... S: I would say this all refers to 'open space', the second manifestation. "Not touched....", referring to the open space of the cavity. As it said in the Atth: "state of being untouched by the four great elements and of being their holes and openings as manifestations..." The space in the ear is a ruupa element that is an essential condition for hearing. This should not be taken for 'body' either. Metta Sarah ======== #100005 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. szmicio Dear Jon and friends, > (99950) > > =============== > > > One cannot find an unconditioned dhamma in the sa.msaara. Nibbaana > > > is only the object of the lokuttaracitta. Even the lokuttaracitta > > > itselves are also conditioned dhamma, they arise and cease. In the > > > ultimate sense, concept does not exist. So, in the ultimate sense, > > > Nibbaana is the only unconditioned dhamma. And the remaining are > > > only conditioned dhamma, which are citta, cetasika, and ruupa. > > > .... > > > S: I would have said the same a while back and Nina was suggesting > > > the same when we were in Bkk, but I think we have to consider the > > > two manifestations of aakaasa ruupa more carefully. > > ------- > > N: I still find it strange to say: there are five paramattha dhammas, > > three, citta, cetasika and rupa are conditioned, and two are > > unconditioned: nibbaana and open space. > > =============== > > I think still only 4 paramattha dhammas, since open space comes under the dhamma of rupa. L: And the term paramattha dhamma, where can be found? Best wishes Lukas #100006 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sukinderpal Hi again Ken, As I suspected last night, I was missing some point. And this is one of those times I wished you were more elaborate in your expressions. :-p Also I could have taken good note of what you wrote in the bracket below such that my examples and hypothesis about the Jhana enthusiast would have then been unnecessary: << Everyone can practice dana and sila (when the conditions are right) but can't everyone also have a theoretical understanding of nama and rupa?>> But taking my potential Jhana attainer as example, I think now what you are saying is that the Buddha would have tried to show one way or the other about the conditioned nature of Jhana cittas or any other reality even if he did go on to teach the development of Jhana as well and the listener did not grasp fully the significance right away. Implied, probably, at those times when he didn't state it so clearly. Also I quite ignored what you said about A. Sujin saying that understanding nama and rupa was more important, but yeah, this is what it is! And my example of the man who left the Buddha in the middle of the conversation, did not prove anything, since surely that person did go away with some understanding of the Dhamma didn't he? Of course kusala of other kinds need to be encouraged and not everyone has the accumulations for Right View. What I was thinking was the effect of the Buddha's words in terms of any positive result there and then, what you seem to be suggesting is the effect of planting the seed of Right Understanding one way or the other. Would this be correct? I guess it's just that you sounded too extreme initially with regard to the matter of `tooth stick', which to me was just conventional good advice and should not be insisted upon to having anything to do with Dhamma. You need to be elaborate when explaining things to me, you know why….;-) Metta, Sukin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinderpal wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > > > Thanks for joining in the hair-splitting thread. > > And I'm only thinking and thinking about it. > > > ========= #100007 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:50 pm Subject: Magnificent Mind! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Non-Locally Stilled Meditating Mind is Omniscient: The Meditating Mind is like a turned on computer, where the keyboard is untouched and there is no reading of inputs neither from the DVD/CD, Floppy/Hard drive, network, or any other source! No background tasks are running. Such computer update its system state according to the speed of its processor e.g. ~ 1 GHz. So it is very ready even though no job is active! Exactly so with the meditating mind! It is ultra aware though ideally empty of objects & processes. Equanimity may be likened to a computer, where whatever button is pressed on the keyboard, whatever CD or floppy is inserted in their drives, whatever information is downloaded from the net, locally or globally, there will be absolute no reaction on the screen! It is not a 'frozen', but wide open state! Still the stream of discrete subconscious states (Bhavanga = mental moments) are running on, yet void of any object. This very basic stream of underlying naked consciousness, may be likened to the electrical current in the computer. The current is 'inside' the computer and makes it work, but is not a product of the computer! Consciousness is 'inside' the brain and makes it work, but is not made de-novo by the brain as assumed! Like the beer is inside the bottle, but not produced by the bottle... Electricity is 'global' as it is the same current that are all-over the same town. This current is shifting phase continuously (50 Hz). Consciousness is also 'global', since it can be trained to perceive all possible events in any given universe, whether past, present, or far future! This phenomenon is called 'Omniscience' & is a feature only of perfectly self enlightened beings. However, the mind is much faster than any computer, since it change and update its system state 17 times more quickly, than any state of matter any computer possibly ever can be made of... Basically this may very well be the bottom cause, why mind stands over and dominates matter and not the other way around, as assumed in our present times of naive mechano-materialistic beliefs! The intentionally choosing & determining mind directly creates, produces and manifests the world that will appear among many closely related potential or probable paired mental & material states… Mind makes everywhere present probability waves collapse into locally manifesting matter states! So far does contemporary orthodox quantum-mechanics agree…Mind creates matter by intending! Is the Brain a Computer, Creator, Container, or an Antenna? The Blessed Buddha once revealed: ORIGIN Mind always comes first, Mind is of all states the primer, By mind are all phenomena initiated, By thought of mind are all things formed! Dhammapada 1 For contemporary orthodox quantum-mechanics & mind by Lawrence Berkeley Lab. professor: Mindful Universe: Quantum Mechanics and the Participating Observer by Henry P. Stapp http://www.amazon.com/Mindful-Universe-Mechanics-Participating-Collection/dp /3540724133/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 &s=books&qid=1199188748&sr=8-1 <...> Have a nicely mindful day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, <...> #100008 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. kenhowardau Hi Sukin, For a long time I have been using the quote "the Buddha taught satipatthana and every word of his teaching should be understood in terms of satipatthana." Now I find out that the quote wasn't meant quite as literally as I have been taking it. So I am prepared to understand it differently now. Even so, I still like it very much. Consider, for example, the Doctrine of Dependent Origination. I have learnt here at DSG that D.O. regards kusala kamma and akusala kamma as virtually the same. In the absence of Right Understanding, kamma of either sort is simply *not the way out.* So why would the Buddha ever have taught anything without satipatthana? One obvious answer is that not everyone was suitable for instruction. If an animal (a dog, for example) had walked up to the Buddha, would he have encouraged it simply to have good behaviour? I suppose the answer is yes. But I am no expert. I could just as easily be convinced that the Buddha would never have spoken a single word except for the purposes of teaching satipatthana. Even when people point to the Buddha's apparently mundane remarks (such as his advice on teeth cleaning) I can still be convinced either way. To my way of thinking it is quite conceivable that the Buddha would never have entered into any discussion for purely mundane purposes. That would have made life with a Buddha difficult in some ways. You couldn't have asked him if he was hungry, or cold etc. But maybe that's the way it was, I don't know. Another suggestion has been that the Buddha sometimes taught dana and sila (without panna) as an interim measure - intending to tie them in with panna later. I suppose I can accept that. But then, do we believe in later? Isn't only the present arammana suitable for right understanding? "Later" doesn't really figure in this teaching. ---------- <. . . > S: > But taking my potential Jhana attainer as example, I think now what you are saying is that the Buddha would have tried to show one way or the other about the conditioned nature of Jhana cittas or any other reality even if he did go on to teach the development of Jhana as well and the listener did not grasp fully the significance right away. ------------ Yes, and why waste a single moment when (1) the student could die before the next lesson or (2) the present reality could fall away without ever being understood? --------------------- S: > Implied, probably, at those times when he didn't state it so clearly. Also I quite ignored what you said about A. Sujin saying that understanding nama and rupa was more important, but yeah, this is what it is! And my example of the man who left the Buddha in the middle of the conversation, did not prove anything, since surely that person did go away with some understanding of the Dhamma didn't he? ---------------------- Yes. Since we both understand things the same way, I am (as Sarah says) just "quibbling over words." But, for as long as the conversation remains civil (and people don't hit me over the head in pure exasperation), useful points such as these can come up. -------------------------------- S: > Of course kusala of other kinds need to be encouraged and not everyone has the accumulations for Right View. What I was thinking was the effect of the Buddha's words in terms of any positive result there and then, what you seem to be suggesting is the effect of planting the seed of Right Understanding one way or the other. Would this be correct? --------------------------------- My theory (for what it's worth) is that the Buddha stayed around in the world purely to teach satipatthana and vipassana. He said, "Listen; there are only dhammas; there are ultimately no people (and no tooths sticks etc). So I want you to understand *everything* I say - no matter how banal some of it may sound - with that in mind." -------------- S: > I guess it's just that you sounded too extreme initially with regard to the matter of `tooth stick', which to me was just conventional good advice and should not be insisted upon to having anything to do with Dhamma. You need to be elaborate when explaining things to me, you know why….;-) --------------- I'm not sure I do know why. :-) But I know that my sentences are usually muddled and hard to follow. That's why, in the old days, I used to try to delay posting for twelve hours or so and then rewrite them. But now I just send them off as they are. You have my sympathy :-) Ken H #100009 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:29 am Subject: Re: why Sujin recommends dry insight rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > I agree with most of this, but would question whether samatha is posture dependent in any sense. What are the types of samatha that require physical solitude and special upright posture, as you see it? > > Jon > Dear Jon Visuddimagga about anapanasati: ""159. Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three seasons, suitable to humour and temperament, {43} and favourable to the development of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation. Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. {43}. 'In the hot season the forest is favourable, in the cold season the root of a tree, in the rainy season an empty place. For one of phlegmatic humour, phlegmatic by nature, the forest is favourable, for one of bilious humour the root of a tree, for one of windy humour an empty place. For one of deluded temperament the forest, for one of hating temperament the root of a tree, for one of greedy temperament an empty place' (Pm.258). 160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. ""endquote In case there is any doubt I was talking about samatha devlopment for one aiming at growth and increase. Of course if one is merely talking about moments of samatha - without further development- then these moments are not so dependent on being secluded, away from noise, etc. These is also sections in the Commentaries that note that for some people postures other than sitting may be more suitable (for types of samatha). But I was speaking generally. And for the one who has mastered jhana then he can attain anywhere anytime. Robert #100010 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:05 am Subject: Re: What is tension in abhidhamma terms? kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > You're probably right. I mean, a moment of satipatthana is rare, and when it happens, it's usually followed by a half an hour of theorising - trying to conceptually understand what just happened - "hmm, so what would that be in abhidhamma terms? But is that the same as what is said in the suttas? And was this satiapatthana at all, or just thinking about satipatthana?!" etc. ------- Hi pt, Strictly speaking, conceptual understanding comes first, doesn't it? But I agree that direct understanding (satipatthana) is a whole level above indirect, conceptual, understanding, and so it might well be followed by the thought, "Wow, what happened then?" :-) -------------------------- pt: > Still, there seems to be at least one benefit to conceptual theorising insofar as when the next moment of satipatthana happens, there will be no need to theorise afterwards anymore, since it's been done already, and then I can just put a little tick next to that experience and just move on so to speak. -------------------------- I think the texts tell us that all levels of right understanding (pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha) continue at all stages of path progress. Even arahants like to listen to Dhamma talks. Ken H #100011 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. nilovg Dear Lukas, Jon, and all, Op 13-aug-2009, om 21:00 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Jon: I think still only 4 paramattha dhammas, since open space > comes under the dhamma of rupa. > > L: And the term paramattha dhamma, where can be found? ------ N: In the suttas you find the classification by way of khandhas, and in the co you find the classification by way of paramattha dhammas. The three conditioned paramattha dhammas are classified as five khandhas. As to open space: if it is rupa, is it rupa-kkhandha? Khandhas arise and fall away. That is still a problem. I cannot answer that. Nina. #100012 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:24 am Subject: Re: space, continued. Part 2. szmicio Dear Nina, Thanks. > The three conditioned paramattha dhammas are classified as five > khandhas. > As to open space: if it is rupa, is it rupa-kkhandha? Khandhas arise > and fall away. That is still a problem. I cannot answer that. L: When I hear this fivefold classification with space as another instance, its sounds for me a bit philosophical. I think we always should stay with Buddha words: Vinaya, Sutta, Abhidhamma - pitaka. And be careful about commentaries. The Buddha's words are much more greater and they are never philosophical. Just the condition for understanding. When I read your Ruupas I found some passages from commentaries very scientific. And it's not always helpful to me. However your Ruupas are great book. Now I am waiting for your cetasikas and especially Conditions.(Patthana) When I read Dhamma, that's helpful. But I dont know why when I read Patthana it even conditions sati in me. And takes me to another world. My best wishes Lukas #100013 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is tension in abhidhamma terms? nilovg Dear pt, Op 13-aug-2009, om 6:08 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Nina: > > What about citta rooted in lobha accompanied by happy feeling, or > > indifferent feeling? > > pt: > From what I could observe so far, there is definitely a lot of > tension involved when lobha arises with pleasant feeling. If lobha > is really strong, body can even tremble under tension. I first > noticed this once when playing cards with my two little nephews. At > one point I found myself thinking with lobha and pleasant feeling: > "I really need this card now and I'm going to win the game!" And as > awareness kicked in, I noticed how tense my body was (and how > ridiculous it was wanting to win against two little kids). As soon > as awareness kicked in, there was an immediate relaxation and kind > of opening, especially in the stomach and head areas. But only for > a second or so, because awareness disappeared just as quickly, and > greed again came back with thoughts like "I want to win!". But as > soon as that happened, there was an immediate tensing up in the > body, and this now seemed to trigger awareness to come back, and > with awareness again came relaxation. So this switching back and > forth happened several more times, very fast, and that was the > first time I think I actually experienced directly the anatta > aspect of both kusala and akusala, they just kept arising and > falling on their own. ------ N: I like the example of playing cards with your nephews, that makes it all so daily. It is good you see that kusala citta and akusala citta is beyond control. We cannot direct them. It is all so complex. We may think of citta rooted in lobha, but cittas arise and fall away faster than one can imagine. They are alternated with cittas rooted in dosa and moha, and hard to tell what is what. Perhaps the word tension may confuse some people. People may interprete this in different ways. There is another matter. Before the difference between nama which experiences and rupa which does not experiences anything is not clearly and directly known when the first stage of insight arises, the characteristics of different cetasikas cannot be clearly known as nama. We may notice lobha and dosa, and perhaps think very quickly about them without naming them, but, we should ask ourselves, is that direct awareness? -------- > pt: There is also a lot of tension involved when lobha arises with > indifferent feeling. An easy example is if anyone is familiar with > playing video games - suddenly you realize you've been playing the > game for three hours longer than you intended to,...I was > babysitting my nephews, so the only conclusion I can make is that > if you want really fast insight progress, forget about meditating > in the forest, or satipatthana while washing the dishes - what you > actually need is at least a couple of nephews ;-) --------- N: Again, lobha with indifferent feeling is alternated by many other types of citta. Babysitting, washing dishes, it is all good, since we are in such situations by conditions already. When we think of real fast progress in insight, we should find out the type of citta that wants that. Is it clinging? It may be so subtle that we do not notice it. But perhaps you said this jokingly. > -------- > Nina: > > Or Citta rooted in ignorance, accompanied by > > indifferent feeling? I do not think people would experience this as > > stress. > ----------- > pt: > I haven't experienced tension directly in regard to moha with > indifferent feeling, but only by comparison. For example, when > there's a transition from a moment with moha and indifferent > feeling (like in an inert doubting state) into a moment of loving > kindness, there's definitely a sudden relaxation, expansion (as > opposed to constricted sensation of tension), particularly in the > chest where suddenly a sort of a tiny speck goes supernova and > starts to radiate kindness, accompanied with pleasant feeling, a > smile and an open and calm mind. ------ N: It is true that when kusala citta arises there is calm, and this also influences bodily phenomena. I think it does not help to try to find out too much about these bodily phenomena and where they are. Cittas are too fast and in between there can be conceit or other types of citta. They are all conditioned dhammas. They cannot be known precisely yet. > ------- > pt: Even when there's a moment of awareness with indifferent > feeling, it seems very different from moha with indifferent feeling > - the head/mind doesn't feel constricted anymore and there's a kind > of a smoothness in every moment that also translates into very > "smooth" bodily movements. If I'm not mistaken, these would be the > kusala cetasikas of pliancy and wieldiness, maybe lightness as > well, and definitely calm cetasika. ------- N: It may be hard to know the difference between a moment of awareness of a nama or rupa and thinking of all these things we learnt through the Abhidhamma. ------- > pt: > I'd say there's definitely conventional tension and stress involved > in dukkha in connection with lobha, dosa and moha, but I don't > think that's the whole story because kusala cittas and cetasikas > are also conditioned and thus also dukkha if I'm not mistaken. ----- N: Very true. Personally I like to avoid the whole idea of tension. It creates confusion as to conventional truth and ultimate truth. I have to delay answering your other mail. I had a lot of tension yesterday, while going around in a big city as Amsterdam is, and I am behind in my mails ;-)) Nina. #100014 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 14-aug-2009, om 11:24 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > When I read Dhamma, that's helpful. But I dont know why when I read > Patthana it even conditions sati in me. And takes me to another world. -------- N: It may help to gain more understanding. No need to think of conditions for sati, then lobha is again playing tricks. The co are reliable, were also rehearsed at the first great Council. But not everybody is inclined to read all the details, it depends on the individual. Just read what you find helpful. Nina. #100015 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:44 pm Subject: Re: space, continued. Part 2. sukinderpal Hi Sarah, Chew, All, I'm behind in my reading. ========= > S: I would have said the same a while back and Nina was suggesting the same when we were in Bkk, but I think we have to consider the two manifestations of aakaasa ruupa more carefully. > > Again, you've made good points, Chew and we may have to agree to disagree on this one for the time being. I hope Jon and Sukin will join in this thread. Suk: I know that you just want to encourage me to write. ;-) I've been appreciating Chew's posts and his ability to analyse and would not have thought to correct him about anything. Besides would I have considered something that you Sarah would have not? See here; I thought to go look in one of Nina's books about the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause of `space' to see if I will find something to point out to Chew. And in your post following this one, you did just what I more or less had in mind. ;-) Quote: S: "The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter. Its function is to indicate the boundaries of matter. It is manifested as the confines of matter; or its manifestation consists in being untouched (by the 4 great elements), and in holes and apertures. Its proximate cause is the matter delimited. It is on account of the space element that one can say of material things delimited that 'this is above. below, around that' " (Vis.M. XIV, 63).\ ... S: When we read about the second manifestation of aakaasa ruupa as being "untouched (by the 4 great elements)" as in holes and apertures, leading one to be able to say 'this is above. below, around that' etc, how do you undertstand the aakaasa ruupa which is "untouched"? Suk: I would have pointed out to the same thing. My general impression of Chew's position is that he is not giving enough consideration to the fact of space as an ultimate reality, has as you say two different manifestations, one that is conditioned by the primary elements and the other which is not. I think that he brings in an unnecessary argument about there being no such thing as `empty space' in the known universe / kaamavacara bhumi; I don't see why one should think along those lines and then draw conclusions. It may be pure ignorance my imagination, but I don't experience any conflict picturing and accepting two spaces both as realities, one arising and falling away dependent on the kalapas and the other which is not associated with the arising and falling away of any kalapas. Both can be seen to be without sabhava, however one is conditioned while the other is not. That this second manifestation of space is said to be unconditioned does not mean that it then becomes somehow similar to Nibbana. Are we perhaps making too much of the qualifier `unconditioned' in this regard? What do you think? Metta, Sukin #100016 From: Ken O Date: Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam ashkenn2k Dear Jon even those with have attained the highest degree of jhana before Buddha, have understand the drawbacks of sense-impressions first. Cheers Ken O --- On Thu, 13/8/09, jonoabb wrote: From: jonoabb Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 13 August, 2009, 4:35 PM Hi KenO (99934) > ============ === > Now on the Right Understanding comes first then Right Concentration matter. Also depending how we see it. If we look at it lokkuttaracitta, we could say they come together, in fact all eight together. If we speak strictly on what to develop first then IMHO, it is understanding then concentration. I am basing on Right view as the forerunner MN117. The Great Forty (BB) > ============ === I agree that right view is the forerunner, but I don't think this means that understanding is to be developed first and then concentration. In terms of the development of vipassana and samatha, there is no need to make any choice. (Always happy to see a fellow dinosaur back again;-)) Jon #100017 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is tension in abhidhamma terms? nilovg Dear pt, Op 13-aug-2009, om 6:29 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Citta is one of the factors that > > can produce ruupas. Dosa may, for example produce hardness. This is > > body-intimation rupa only in the case of having the intention to > > convey a meaning. There is not body intimation all the time. > > pt: > Just to make sure I understand what you're saying - do you think > there's anything else other than body intimation that translates > into tension? ... But I'm wondering what else from the citta domain > can translate into tension other than body intimation? --------- N: The question is, do you wish to convey something to someone else when citta rooted in dosa produces rupas? We do not need to use the word tension here, nor the word hardness, that may be confusing. When you frown to convey to others that you are angry, there is the rupa that is bodily intimation. It is a kind of rupa that can be produced only by citta. -------- > pt: Could you please say a little more about the second stage of > tender insight - knowledge of discerning conditionality. At that > stage - is one able to know directly all the conditions that are > involved in the moment in the same way that one knows nama-rupa > directly - for example knowing directly that there was exactly 9 > out of 24 conditions working together to bring about the current > citta? > Or is it more like a generalized direct understanding that the > current moment of citta itself is conditioned - for example knowing > that seeing consciousness happened just now because attention came > together with a visible object (and a working physical eye), i.e. > one followed from the other? ------- N: All this seems to me ways of thinking about the Abhidhamma. The second stage is direct understanding of seeing as a conditioned reality, visible object as a conditioned reality, but not going over all the different conditions. No time to think. I quote from Kh Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas (see http:// www.abhidhamma.org/Para12.htm ):