#100400 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding the third question: c: "IS IT WRONG TO NOT GO TO BED DREAMING OF BEING MURDERED IN YOUR SLEAP?" Scott: Ah, a corollary. FEAR. RAGE. The double negative. Thoughts in the night. MN 54, 19, To Potaliya: "Householder, suppose a man dreamt about lovely parks, lovely groves, lovely meadows, and lovely lakes, and on waking he saw nothing of it. So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: 'Sensual pleasures have been compared to a dream by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great..." Scott: Is it right to dream of angels granting IMMORTALITY? Sincerely, Scott. #100401 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding the fourth and fifth questions: c: "WHAT IS WRONG? WHAT IS THIS PERVERSION CALLED EVIL?" Scott: What is akusala/unwhholesome? Of the 81 mundane cittas, there are 12 which are unwholesome: 8 Greed-rooted cittas (lobhamuulacittaani). 2 Hatred-rooted cittas (dosamuulacittaani). 2 Delusuion-rooted cittas (mohamullacittaani). Of the 18 rootless cittas, there are 7 that are unwholesome-resultant. Sincerely, Scott. #100402 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding the sixth question: c: "WHICH CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG, THE CRIME OR THE POLICE OFFICER, GOOD OR EVIL?" Scott: I don't think there is a beginning to DELUSION. Sincerely, Scott. #100403 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding: c: "come now, if these questions cannot be easily answered, THEN ISN'T IT PROBABLY AND LIKELY that the person is under the influence of the drug called MONOTHEISM and EGO?" Scott: Yeah. Sincerely, Scott. #100404 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:59 pm Subject: Re: Remastered! szmicio Dear Colette and Scott > Regarding the sixth question: > > c: "WHICH CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG, THE CRIME OR THE POLICE OFFICER, GOOD OR EVIL?" > > Scott: I don't think there is a beginning to DELUSION. L: Well, the Blessed One also said about the begining of transmigration: The whole Danda Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn15/sn15.009.than.html This is also a great reminder not to think much about the beginning of transmigration and do not be too philosophical about that. The ignorance is the cause of transmigration and in the patticcasamupada it's more clear. The transmigration is also only the moment of arising and falling away. Best wishes Lukas #100405 From: "christine_forsyth" Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Geri geri and Chris, > > To start with, I am very grateful to Chris for posting the article, Going for Refuge & Taking the Precepts, by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi, which is very useful for me. > > The following is the list of 20 forbidden women, which I got it from a Burmese book. > Hello Han, Thanks Han, I appreciate your response and have been able to cut and paste the parts of this thread relating to the OP's original request (only your post) and pass it on to a another friend as well. They were appreciative also. Thank you again for your help. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #100406 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. sarahprocter... Hi Sukin & Chew, Sukin, you put the following well, I thought: --- On Tue, 25/8/09, sukinderpal wrote: >Sukin: I think that you misunderstand what Sarah is saying. The reference to `open space' using conventional examples is not saying that in a cave or even outer space, that such extended areas consisted only of the unconditioned space. It is just to give an idea about the manifestation of open space as against that which is conditioned by the kalapas and limited by them. It is saying that pariccheda akasa is between the kalapas and where there are *no* kalapas, there is this unconditioned space. In other words, while there must be kalapas in a cave or the ear, there is not only kalapas and the pariccheda akasa rupas conditioned by these, but also, and indeed occupying greater area, is the unconditioned akasa. .... Sarah: Yes, I agree with it all and also: >Sukin: Were there only pariccheda akasa whose one function is simply to separate kalapas, I find this not enough to explain such movements from one location to another of conventional objects. Also I see no reason to believe that the existence of kalapas is a cause for *all* space in the known universe. It doesn't make sense. .... Metta Sarah ========= #100407 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (5) sarahprocter... Dear Chew & all, (a continuation of the discussions on the topic in Bangkok last February). Nina: I would like to hear more about space. Can it help me for awareness now? Sujin: No, no. How can panna know space when there is no characterisitic and conditions for it? But there is space. Nina: Yes, so that can be a condition. Robert K: Haven't we always said that getting the theory right can be helpful too? Isn't it one of those things that if you've got the theory wrong about certain aspects of Dhamma, that may hinder the panna arising? It may still be a useful point to get the theory right even if it's only theory level, even if we can't experience it directly. Like to know nibbana, to know the theory about nibbana correctly seems very important, otherwise we can go in the wrong direction, right? Sujin: And what dhamma should be known? The sabhava or the asabhava rupa? Robert: Well, theoretically, both should be known. Obviously directly... Sujin: Sabhava should be known. Robert: OK. Sarah: Asabhava can't be known (by us). Robert: But asabhava like... Sujin: Later after sabhava is known. Nina: But the derived rupas, upada rupa, are asabhava. Sujin: 10 asabhavas, not all. Nina: But space, this is not among the asabhava rupas or is it? Sujin: Akasa is asabhava because it doesn't have a characteristic like hardness or smell. Sarah: Nina, it is akasa rupa, so it has to be asabhava. It's included - aksasa rupa. <...> Sujin: For example, what should be known now. That is the answer. To develop right understanding right now instead of trying to experience... Nina: Find out more, because I cannot understand it really, but we can not understand everything. ***** Metta Sarah ====== #100408 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:23 am Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Sukin) I think I may be repeating myself here, but what's new? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Was it because some people were intellectually incapable of > satipatthana? I am not convinced about that. Everyone can practice dana > and sila (when the conditions are right) but can't everyone also have a > theoretical understanding of nama and rupa? They just need to be told > there are realities; some mental, others physical. That's not so hard. .... S: I don't see that repeating "there are realities, some mental, some physical" as being theoretical understanding, pariyatti. A parrot can repeat this, but that doesn't mean there's any panna at all. We mentioned Davadatta and I don't know whether he had had any pariyatti panna at all in his last life or not. What I am sure about was that it wasn't of the degree of sacca ~naana or firm theoretical/intellectual understanding, otherwise he would not have gone so wrong. The seeds were definitely planted to act as condition for panna of all degrees to develop later, however. Others may have quotes or further comments to add on this. I thought the conversation Nina quoted between K.Sujin and the Tour Guide in Turkey was interesting (#100356). Clearly the Guide was a fairly devout Moslem who believes in Mohammed as prophet, feels his presence and reads her texts. She appears to have no interest at all in understanding realities. Most of us would not bother to pursue a conversation on realities, but K.Sujin does - even pointing to anatta and no control. She has confidence that seeds can be planted that bear fruit later and that sharing the Dhamma as best we can, when we can is the greatest dana. Any comments? Metta Sarah ======== #100409 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:08 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (47) hantun1 Dear Nina, Chew, and others, > The Text: Life faculty is a "controlling faculty" (indriya), it has a dominating influence over the other ruupas it arises together with since it maintains their life. > The Text: Life faculty maintains the other ruupas it arises together with in one group, and then it falls away together with them. -------------------- Han: If a ruupa arises together with other ruupas and falls away together with them, how can it maintain the life of other ruupas? Apart from sahajaata paccaya, and the simile of flame and lamp, is there any other explanation? Thank you very much, Respectfully, Han #100410 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:14 am Subject: Genuine Goodwill! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Genuine Goodwill Blazes and Shines! The blessed Buddha once said: Among tigers, lions, leopards & bears I lived in the jungle. No one of them was frightened of me, nor did I fear anyone! Uplifted by such universal friendliness, I enjoyed the forest. Finding great solace in such sweet and silenced solitude… Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of all bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend of the many-footed! Anguttara Nikaya IV 67 May all creatures, all breathing things, all beings one and all, without exception, experience good fortune only! :-) May they not fall into any harm. Anguttara Nikaya II 72 With good will for the entire cosmos, cultivate an infinite heart and mind: Beaming above, below, and all around, unobstructed, without trace of hostility. Sutta Nipata I <...> Have a nice goodwilled day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #100411 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:53 am Subject: Practice of Dhamma in accordance with Dhamma SN 55.5 truth_aerator Dear Nina, Lucas, Sarah, Jon and all, As you know, the suttas tell us that one of the limbs for stream entry is practice of Dhamma according to the Dhamma. 1 Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. 2 Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. 3 Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. 4 Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. - SN 55.5 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html#Heading4 What is the 4th Factor (Practice in accordance with the Dhamma)? How is it accomplished? How is it different from Appropriate attention? Thank you, With metta, Alex #100412 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (47) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Nina's away for a few days. --- On Mon, 31/8/09, han tun wrote: > The Text: Life faculty is a "controlling faculty" (indriya), it has a dominating influence over the other ruupas it arises together with since it maintains their life. > The Text: Life faculty maintains the other ruupas it arises together with in one group, and then it falls away together with them. ------------ -------- >Han: If a ruupa arises together with other ruupas and falls away together with them, how can it maintain the life of other ruupas? >Apart from sahajaata paccaya, and the simile of flame and lamp, is there any other explanation? ... S: By faculty condition (indriya paccaya), I believe. Remember the simile of the wet-nurse taking care of the baby without a mother in describing life-faculty (jivitindriya ruupa)? I don't have my texts here, but I remember U Narada giving a lot of helpful detail on it in "Guide to Conditional Relations", a summary of the Patthaana. Life-faculty controls kamma-produced matter so that it extends the life of these rupas by life-faculty condition. It does this only after the first moment of the arising of rupa, so after the rupas have arisen by kamma (and conascence) conditions. If you have time, take a look in 'Useful Posts' under 'Life-faculty'. You'll find many of Nina's quotes from the Visuddhimagga, Tiika and so on there. Chew & others may have more to add as well. Metta Sarah ===== #100413 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:12 am Subject: Re: Practice of Dhamma in accordance with Dhamma SN 55.5 szmicio Dear Alex > As you know, the suttas tell us that one of the limbs for stream entry is practice of Dhamma according to the Dhamma. > > > 1 Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. > 2 Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. > 3 Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. > 4 Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. L: Let me add the pali text of this passage. That's from Dutiyasariputtasutta.m , SN 55.5. L: Here are the four things that leads to sotapatti, the stream entry. They are: Sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammassavana.m, yonisomanasikaaro, dhammaanudhammappa.tipatti. The meaning of each is: Sappurisasa.msevo - sappuriso means litteraly with man, but purisa means also a holy guy, a wise man. So sappuriso means "with wise guy". sa.mseva means associating. So the whole word sounds: "associating with the wise man". This is the first factor. saddhammassavana.m - Here saddhamma means "the true Dhamma" and sava.na - hearing. So the whole word means: "Hearing the true Dhamma". There is also a word assava - loyal or attentive and then it would be like "being attentive to the True Dhamma or being loyal" but the first translation "hearing the True Dhamma". yonisomanasikaaro - it is the wise attention. dhammaanudhammappa.tipatti = the first word dhammaanudhamma consist with dhamma + anudhamma = lawfullness, conformity with norm. pa.tipatti - practice or behaviour. So it would be "practice with the conformity with Dhamma" This is the basis to further discussion. My best wishes Lukas #100414 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:17 am Subject: Re: Practice of Dhamma in accordance with Dhamma SN 55.5 - correct fonts szmicio Dear Alex Here I corrected pali fonts. L: Let me add the pali text of this passage. That's from Dutiyasariputtasutt a.m , SN 55.5. L: Here are the four things that leads to sotapatti, the stream entry. They are: Sappurisasa. msevo, saddhammassavana. m, yonisomanasikaaro, dhammaanudhammappa. tipatti. The meaning of each is: Sappurisasa. msevo - sappuriso means litteraly with man, but purisa means also a holy guy, a wise man. So sappuriso means "with wise guy". sa.mseva means associating. So the whole word sounds: "associating with the wise man". This is the first factor. saddhammassavana. m - Here saddhamma means "the true Dhamma" and sava.na - hearing. So the whole word means: "Hearing the true Dhamma". There is also a word assava - loyal or attentive and then it would be like "being attentive to the True Dhamma or being loyal" but the first translation "hearing the True Dhamma". yonisomanasikaaro - it is the wise attention. dhammaanudhammappa. tipatti = the first word dhammaanudhamma consist with dhamma + anudhamma = lawfullness, conformity with norm. pa.tipatti - practice or behaviour. So it would be "practice with the conformity with Dhamma" This is the basis to further discussion. My best wishes Lukas #100415 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Element of space 7 of Y.Karunadasa sarahprocter... Dear Chew & all, --- On Fri, 21/8/09, chewsadhu wrote: >Just to do a clarification. I type these Element of Space by Y.Karunadasa, do not mean that anyone here have the same view with Y.Karunadasa. It is just for the sake of sharing the knowledge from this book. .. ... S: Appreciated! Cont. [Element of space 7] >Thus in the Mahaparinibbana- Sutta, Buddha is represented as saying:"This great earth, O Ananda, rests on water, water on air, and air on akasa" {D.II,p.107} . And in the Rahulocada Sutta it is said that akasa for its part does not rest on anything (akaso na kattha ci patitthito) {M.I,p.424}. In point of fact, Nagasena (Milindapanha) cites this same canonical statement after enumerating the fundamental characteristics of akasa {Mil p.388}, implying thereby that it is such statements in the earlier texts that paved the way to the conception of akasa which we find in the Milindapanha and hte Kathavatthu. ... S: Yes, I think these references are to 'open' space. ... >When we come to the commentaries and the subsequent works the whole subject has undergone a notable change. The akasa of the Kathavatthu and the Milindapanha, which as we have seen, is the Theravada counterpart of the Vaibhasikas asamskrta-akasa, came to be designated anantakasa, infinite space, or ajatakasa, unbounded space {See KvuA. pp.92, 93; Abhvk. p.279}. Although the two terms are reminiscent of its earlier realistic conception, the use of another term, tucchakasa {KvuA. p.92}, false or empty space, indecates an attempt to deprive it of its reality. As a matter of fact, it is clearly stated that it is only a pannatti {Ibid. loc. cit.}, a nominal dhamma with no corresponding objective reality. ... S: That's interesting. I'm not familiar with this ter "tucchakasa". So, it is this 'false' space that is the pannatti... ... >Understandably the same fate fell on the akasa-dhatu, too. The logic that guided the Vibhanga and the Dhammasangani in bringing it under matter is certainly farfetched. ... S: Why? It is rupa. ... >Its conception as real is a different question. The later scholiasts were not satisfied with either of these situations. They eliminated both by bringing it under the heading, anipphanna-rupa. For this is another way of saying that it is neither rupa (matter) nor a dhamma (element of existence) in the true sense of the terms. ... S: This doesn't sound correct. It is anipphanna rupa (non-concrete rupa) as are several other asabhava rupas. They are still classified as rupas. [The other anipphanna rupas are: bodily intimation, speech intimation, lightness, plasticity and wieldiness and the four rupas which are characteristics of rupa- birth, continuity, decay and impermanence.] .... >As such its description as that which delimits (paricchindati) or that which is delimited (paricchijjati) should not be understood in a realistic sense. For it is nothing but the mere limitation of matter - rupa-pariccheda- mattam{Abhvk. p.70}. ... S: I think the description is intended in a very "realistic sense". Pariccheda akasa which delimits the kalapas and the 'open' space where there are no kalapas. Realities, rupas... Thanks again for including all the helpful detail, Chew. Metta Sarah ====== #100416 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (47) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your information. I will look into it. with metta and respect, Han #100417 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:05 am Subject: Re: Element of space 7 of Y.Karunadasa szmicio Dear Sarah and Chew, > >Its conception as real is a different question. The later scholiasts were not satisfied with either of these situations. They eliminated both by bringing it under the heading, anipphanna-rupa. For this is another way of saying that it is neither rupa (matter) nor a dhamma (element of existence) in the true sense of the terms. > ... > S: This doesn't sound correct. It is anipphanna rupa (non-concrete rupa) as are several other asabhava rupas. They are still classified as rupas. L: Which of the ruupas are asabhava ones? So the lakkhana or sabhava of each dhamma is their characteristic that can be known by pa~n~na, but also asabhava ruupas can be known. What is a difference between sabhava and asabhava dhammas. > [The other anipphanna rupas are: bodily intimation, speech intimation, lightness, plasticity and wieldiness and the four rupas which are characteristics of rupa- birth, continuity, decay and impermanence.] L: Can you explain the ruupa of birth, continuity, decay and impermanence? Best wishes Lukas #100418 From: "christine_forsyth" Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:27 am Subject: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta christine_fo... Hello all, A friend of mine has stated that the Abhidhamma teaches things not in the Suttas, and that it is a later Teaching, not directly from the Buddha. He states: "1. This does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka... The process of the 17 thought moments in a complete perception is as follow: 1. Bhavanga - (basic consciousness) 2. Bhavangacalana - (vibration) 3. Bhavangupaccheda - (cut off) 4. Pancadvaravajjana - (5 doors senses -eye, ear, nose etc) 5. Pancavinnana - (5 consciousness) 6. Sampaticchana - (accepting the object) 7. Santirana - (investigation) 8. Votthapana - (determination) 9. Javana - (experience - 7 types) 10. " 11. " 12. " 13. " 14. " 15. " 16. Tadarammana - (registration) 17. Tadarammana - (confirmation) 2. The Heart Base in the analysis of material element does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka. 3. The concept of Rebirth Linking Consciousness does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka." Does the Abhidhamma contain teachings not given in the Suttas, even obliquely, by the Buddha? How would you answer the above? metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #100419 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:32 am Subject: Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta szmicio Dear Chris, Vinayapitaka, Suttapitaka and Abhidhammapitaka were both taught by the Buddha Gotama. Here is no doubt. But commentaries are not taught by Buddha, they were written by Theras. > A friend of mine has stated that the Abhidhamma teaches things not in the Suttas, and that it is a later Teaching, not directly from the Buddha. L: Well, a lot of teachings from Abhidhammapitaka is pointed out in Suttanta first. The good example is Vibhanga, the second book where Buddha is repeating the Sutta teachings and then is speaking in more detailed way according to Realities(abhidhammas). He did so because he knew that not all people are able to understand just Suttanta and Vinaya teachings. After that the Theras went in steps of Master and made another comments. Those are more datailed teaching as you know. This is the "classification tradition". He states: > > "1. This does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka... > > The process of the 17 thought moments in a complete perception is as follow: > > 1. Bhavanga - (basic consciousness) > 2. Bhavangacalana - (vibration) > 3. Bhavangupaccheda - (cut off) > 4. Pancadvaravajjana - (5 doors senses -eye, ear, nose etc) > 5. Pancavinnana - (5 consciousness) > 6. Sampaticchana - (accepting the object) > 7. Santirana - (investigation) > 8. Votthapana - (determination) > 9. Javana - (experience - 7 types) > 10. " > 11. " > 12. " > 13. " > 14. " > 15. " > 16. Tadarammana - (registration) > 17. Tadarammana - (confirmation) L: They are not in the Suttas. But they are in Abhidhammapitaka. The Abhidhamma means "reality" and this is the Buddha teachings that is talking about realities. Paramattha dhammas. There is no need for them to be in the Suttas. My private opinion on that is that the "paramatha dhamma" is only the gramatic used to point us the different meanings of the word "dhamma". that in Suttanta means generaly "the thing".like ekodhammo - "the one thing". In abhidhamma: dhamma "the reality". The reality that can be understood. ---- Again all doubts on Abhidhamma comes from non-Tradition sources. Here are words made by the One of the Theras who commented Vibhanga. At the beginning of Samohavinodhani, the commentary to Vibhanga he pay his respect: ------ Best wishes Lukas #100420 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta upasaka_howard Hi, Chris - Some meager thought from me on this: In a message dated 8/31/2009 4:28:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cjforsyth1@... writes: Hello all, A friend of mine has stated that the Abhidhamma teaches things not in the Suttas, and that it is a later Teaching, not directly from the Buddha. He states: "1. This does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka... The process of the 17 thought moments in a complete perception is as follow: 1. Bhavanga - (basic consciousness) 2. Bhavangacalana - (vibration) 3. Bhavangupaccheda - (cut off) 4. Pancadvaravajjana - (5 doors senses â€"eye, ear, nose etc) 5. Pancavinnana - (5 consciousness) 6. Sampaticchana - (accepting the object) 7. Santirana - (investigation) 8. Votthapana - (determination) 9. Javana - (experience â€" 7 types) 10. " 11. " 12. " 13. " 14. " 15. " 16. Tadarammana - (registration) 17. Tadarammana - (confirmation) ------------------------------------------------- I believe the foregoing fascinating, early psychological theory is commentarial, and not in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. (But I stand to be corrected by those who actually KNOW the Abhidhamma.) --------------------------------------------------- 2. The Heart Base in the analysis of material element does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka. 3. The concept of Rebirth Linking Consciousness does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka." ----------------------------------------------------- My impression is that item 3, if not 2, is at least implicitly in the suttas. If rebirth is not a transition of stationing of consciousness - a change in realm of experience, I don't know what it is!! ---------------------------------------------------- Does the Abhidhamma contain teachings not given in the Suttas, even obliquely, by the Buddha? ------------------------------------------------------ I get the impression that it leans towards a discrete, pluralistic realism that is not to be found in the suttas, but I'm not looking to defend that as a position. I'm not competent to the task. -------------------------------------------------------- How would you answer the above? metta Chris =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100421 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta scottduncan2 Dear Christine, Regarding: C: "A friend of mine has stated that the Abhidhamma teaches things not in the Suttas, and that it is a later Teaching, not directly from the Buddha..." Scott: I'd leave this friend with his or own views on the matter, if it were me. Sincerely, Scott. #100422 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:08 pm Subject: Re: Practice of Dhamma in accordance with Dhamma SN 55.5 - correct fonts truth_aerator Dear Lucas, Nina, all Thank you for your pali, however I do wonder. How does one "practice with the conformity with Dhamma" dhammaanudhammappa.tipatti ? How does one do yoniso manasikara? How is yoniso manasikara different from "practice with the conformity with Dhamma" dhammaanudhammappa.tipatti ? With metta, Alex #100423 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:23 pm Subject: All will Vanish: Nothing is thus worth clinging to... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Contemplating Transience reduces false perception of permanence: The Blessed Buddha once said: Aniccanupassanam bhavento niccasaññam pajahati... When developing the contemplation of Impermanence ( Anicca ), one overcomes perception of permanence... The anytime, everywhere, & for everybody directly observable facts are: All states will pass... All things will vanish... All formations are unstable... All mountains crumble into nothing... All memories are lost like tears in rain... Nothing remains static without change... All buildings & homes collapse into dust... All phenomena are of a nature to breakup... All moments momentarily cease never to return... All Universes implodes into pointless singularity... All phenomena are momentary & thus temporary... All bodies grow old, decrepit, fall & finally rotten... All worldly happiness & pleasure changes & are lost... All beings grow old, sick, ugly, dement, smelling & die... All forms of form will decay, deteriorate & fall apart... All constructions - physical as mental - arises & ceases... There is no lasting permanence anywhere except Nibbana... <...> Have a nice transient day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #100424 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (6) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, contd. Kevin: There are 3 unconditioned dhammas, is that right? Space, nibbana and... Sarah: Pannatti. Nina: But I'm inclined to think that space is a concept, but it isn't. Kevin: Is it real? Is there no space at all or is there space? And space is space. Jon: What we think of as space is a concept, but there is apparently a dhamma which is space. Nina: Yes. Sarah: Because, like in your example yesterday, when we talk about the nostrils and the cavities in the ears, these are concepts. It's true, they are conventional examples, but they are examples representing what? There have to be that rupa, that space in the cavity, so they're not just examples for no reason, but they're representing that reality. So they're concepts representing that reality. Nina: But what got me is that I find it so clear, for instance in "Survey" and Abhidhamma, that there are citta, cetasika and rupa which arise and fall away, which are conditioned and then 4 - there is nibbana which is unconditioned. In this classification, I don't see this space, so that I was wondering about. Sujin: What are the 28 rupas? Nina: Pariccheda is among them... Sujin: All, what are they? [list of 28 rupas given between us, including akasa rupa] Sujin: There must be akasa rupa too. So that's the answer. Nina: Conditioned rupas... Sujin: And also there is the other akasa which is not the akasa in between the kalapas. We have to accept the truth. Nina: But I don't know where in the Teachings, where in the Abhidhamma I can find it. Sujin: The unconditioned rupa. The three. Nina: In the Abhidhamma or commentary? Sujin: That's why we have to read all, because there are the 3 unconditioned. Sarah: It's there. It's all about it in the Atthasalini and Milinda Panha, but it depends how you read these texts because they can be read as suggesting they refer to pannatti, as Karunadasi suggests, or you can read [them] as actually representing, referring to reality, asabhava dhamma. Nina: Yeah. ***** Metta Sarah ========= #100425 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:17 pm Subject: Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta truth_aerator Hi Chris, All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello all, > > A friend of mine has stated that the Abhidhamma teaches things not in the Suttas, and that it is a later Teaching, not directly from the Buddha. He states: > > "1. This does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka... > > The process of the 17 thought moments in a complete perception is as follow: > > 1. Bhavanga - (basic consciousness) > 2. Bhavangacalana - (vibration) > 3. Bhavangupaccheda - (cut off) > 4. Pancadvaravajjana - (5 doors senses -eye, ear, nose etc) > 5. Pancavinnana - (5 consciousness) > 6. Sampaticchana - (accepting the object) > 7. Santirana - (investigation) > 8. Votthapana - (determination) > 9. Javana - (experience - 7 types) > 10. " > 11. " > 12. " > 13. " > 14. " > 15. " > 16. Tadarammana - (registration) > 17. Tadarammana - (confirmation) > > 2. The Heart Base in the analysis of material element does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka. > > 3. The concept of Rebirth Linking Consciousness does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka." > > Does the Abhidhamma contain teachings not given in the Suttas, even obliquely, by the Buddha? How would you answer the above? > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > From a scholarly analysis, there is no evidence that Abh as we know it was literally said by the Buddha. And if it were, we would still have to figure out, which Abhidhamma? There were multiple Abh's attributed to Buddha or his chief Disciples. Even Bhikkhu Bodhi (and other good monks) don't believe Abh story. BB in SN occasionally pointed out sutta teachings that contradicted Abh. The analysis of Language, concepts and history suggests that Abh is later invention by Scholar Monks. "During the two centuries after the Buddha's passing, some of the best monastic minds worked towards a comprehensive and precise systematization of the teachings of the Buddha and the first-generation saints. The philosophical systems are at first only bare matrices or indices (matika) of the True Teaching; even their subsequent systematic elaborations are devoid of stories and symbolic language. It is essentially a technical guide, almost scientifically precise, and a catalog of numerical lists and doctrinal descriptions. It came to be called the Abhidhamma." Piya Tan 2006 "By comparing the available Abhidharma texts, however, we are led to the conclusion that already within the first two centuries after the parinirvana, and in a great part before the First Schism, a substantial development [of the Ahidhamma] had taken place. (1970:218)" Warder, AK The nature and origins of Buddhist scholasticism and the dharma theory by Piya Tan ©2006 =========== With metta, Alex #100426 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (Howard & all), #100187 --- On Fri, 21/8/09, kenhowardau wrote: >Be ready for some more quibbling over words. :-) ... S: What's new? :-) ... >I think Ananda wanted to say that DO was understandable, but he accidentally said it in a way that gave a wrong impression. The way he said it gave the impression that DO was somehow *not* profound, deep in meaning and knowable only to the wise. ... S: Howard's already given the quote in a helpful reply. ... >And didn't the Buddha agree to teach the Dhamma after considering that even slow witted people could be taught some level of right understanding? ... S: As conveniently quoted on the home page: "some lotuses might be born in the water and grow in the water, but would rise up from the water and stand without being soiled by the water"(SN 6:560). Just some with "little dust in their eyes"... ..... >I can't speak for Devadatta. :-) Are you sure he didn't have pariyatti panna? I would have thought that he did but his evil accumulations were so strong that they overrode it. ... S: As I said yesterday, who knows? It certainly wasn't firm enough to keep him on the path and as is clear in the first extract below, he had strong wrong views in spite of his jhana powers and honour in the Order as shown in the second extract: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/btg/btg40.htm "WHEN Devadatta, the son of Suprabuddha and a brother of Yasodhara, became a disciple, he cherished the hope of attaining the same distinctions and honors as Gotama Siddhattha. Being disappointed in his ambitions, he conceived in his heart a jealous hatred, and, attempting to excel the Perfect One in virtue, he found fault with his regulations and reproved them as too lenient. Devadatta went to Rajagaha and gained the ear of Ajatasattu, the son of King Bimbisara. And Ajatasattu built a new vihara for Devadatta, and founded a sect whose disciples were pledged to severe rules and self-mortification. Soon afterwards the Blessed One himself came to Rajagaha and stayed at the Veluvana vihara. Devadatta called on the Blessed One, requesting him to sanction his rules of greater stringency, by which a greater holiness might be procured. "The body," he said, consists of its thirty-two parts and has no divine attributes. It is conceived in sin and born in corruption. Its attributes are liability to pain and dissolution, for it is impermanent. It is the receptacle of karma which is the curse of our former existences; it is the dwelling place of sin and diseases and its organs constantly discharge disgusting secretions. Its end is death and its goal the charnel house. Such being the condition of the body it behooves us to treat it as a carcass full of abomination and to clothe it in such rags only as have been gathered in cemeteries or upon dung-hills." The Blessed One said: "Truly, the body is full of impurity and its end is the charnel house, for it is impermanent and destined to be dissolved into its elements. But being the receptacle of karma, it lies in our power to make it a vessel of truth and not of evil. It is not good to indulge in the pleasures of the body, but neither is it good to neglect our bodily needs and to heap filth upon impurities. The lamp that is not cleansed and not filled with oil will be extinguished, and a body that is unkempt, unwashed, and weakened by penance will not be a fit receptacle for the light of truth. Attend to your body and its needs as you would treat a wound which you care for without loving it. Severe rules will not lead the disciples on the middle path which I have taught. Certainly, no one can be prevented from keeping more stringent rules, if he sees fit to do so but they should not be imposed upon any one, for they are unnecessary." Thus the Tathagata refused Devadatta's proposal; and Devadatta left the Buddha and went into the vihara speaking evil of the Lord's path of salvation as too lenient and altogether insufficient. When the Blessed One heard of Devadatta's intrigues, he said: "Among men there is no one who is not blamed. People blame him who sits silent and him who speaks, they also blame the man who preaches the middle path." " http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/d/devadatta.htm "When the Buddha visited Kapilavatthu after the Enlightenment and preached to the SÄkiyans, Devadatta was converted together with his friends Ananda, Bhagu, Kimbila, Bhaddiya, Anuruddha, and their barber, UpÄli, and he sought the Buddha at AnupiyÄ and entered the Order (Vin.ii.182). During the rainy season that followed, Devadatta acquired the power of iddhi possible to those who are yet of the world (puthujja-nika-iddhi) (Vin.ii.183; for particulars see Rockhill, p.85). For some time he seems to have enjoyed great honour in the Order, and in one passage he is mentioned in a list of eleven of the chief Elders of all of whom the Buddha speaks in praise. (Ud.i.5. Again in Vin.ii.189 SÄriputta is mentioned as having gone about RÄjagaha singing Devadatta's praises; see also DhA.i.64f). Devadatta was later suspected of evil wishes (E.g., S.ii.156). About eight years before the Buddha's death, Devadatta, eager for gain and favour and jealous of the Buddha's fame, attempted to win over AjÄtasattu. " ***** Metta Sarah ======= #100427 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and Sarah sarahprocter... Dear Han, Still running behind....:) --- On Sat, 22/8/09, han tun wrote: >I just heard the following story from my grand-son. >In Rangoon there is a lay-follower who is very much conversant with the Buddha's teachings, and who is especially sudying and practicing satipa.t.thaana. Once, he asked a monk what sort of meditation the monk was practicing. The monk answered that he was contemplating on anattaa all the time. The lay-follower was not very satisfied. He probably wanted to hear about the four foundations of mindfulness. So he asked the monk again, the same question on a slightly different wording. The monk said, if he was contemplating on nattaa all the time, what more he needed to contemplate? After all, the Buddha vaada is Anattaa vaada! >When I heard the story from my grand-son, I immediately remember you. ... S: And when I heard the story from you, I immediately thought how great it is that you can share such Dhamma stories with your young family members. Conditions may be/are tough in Rangoon, but to have access to the Dhamma and to be able to consider how "Buddha vaada is Anattaa vaada" is the greatest treasure. I'd also say that the four foundations of mindfulness is Anataa vaada! Please thank you grand-son and ask him to share any other stories. Metta Sarah ======== #100428 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (6) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/31/2009 6:57:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Friends, contd. Kevin: There are 3 unconditioned dhammas, is that right? Space, nibbana and... Sarah: Pannatti. Nina: But I'm inclined to think that space is a concept, but it isn't. Kevin: Is it real? Is there no space at all or is there space? And space is space. Jon: What we think of as space is a concept, but there is apparently a dhamma which is space. Nina: Yes. Sarah: Because, like in your example yesterday, when we talk about the nostrils and the cavities in the ears, these are concepts. It's true, they are conventional examples, but they are examples representing what? There have to be that rupa, that space in the cavity, so they're not just examples for no reason, but they're representing that reality. So they're concepts representing that reality. Nina: But what got me is that I find it so clear, for instance in "Survey" and Abhidhamma, that there are citta, cetasika and rupa which arise and fall away, which are conditioned and then 4 - there is nibbana which is unconditioned. In this classification, I don't see this space, so that I was wondering about. Sujin: What are the 28 rupas? Nina: Pariccheda is among them... Sujin: All, what are they? [list of 28 rupas given between us, including akasa rupa] Sujin: There must be akasa rupa too. So that's the answer. Nina: Conditioned rupas... Sujin: And also there is the other akasa which is not the akasa in between the kalapas. We have to accept the truth. Nina: But I don't know where in the Teachings, where in the Abhidhamma I can find it. Sujin: The unconditioned rupa. The three. Nina: In the Abhidhamma or commentary? Sujin: That's why we have to read all, because there are the 3 unconditioned. Sarah: It's there. It's all about it in the Atthasalini and Milinda Panha, but it depends how you read these texts because they can be read as suggesting they refer to pannatti, as Karunadasi suggests, or you can read [them] as actually representing, referring to reality, asabhava dhamma. Nina: Yeah. ***** Metta Sarah =============================== I'm not looking to argue any of this, Sarah,but just put forward my belief. I want to put myself on record as saying that I do not buy this business of three unconditioned types of phenomena. As I see it, there is but one unconditioned phenomenon, namely THE unconditioned dhamma, nibbana! This is my belief, and it has been my understanding that this is also the perspective of Theravada, though not Mahayana. As for concepts, they are not realities, IMO. Thinking is, but not concepts. And concepts, merely imagined and actually non-existent, cannot be truthfully said to be unconditioned. Nothing at all can be truthfully predicated of fictions, for fictions do not exist. And space, if it is a reality, is not unconditioned. It is conditioned by what it is enclosed by or what it encloses. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100429 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 3:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (6) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Not to argue either, just one quick clarification: --- On Tue, 1/9/09, upasaka@... wrote: >As for concepts, they are not realities, IMO. Thinking is, but not concepts. ... S: Exactly so. No suggestion of concepts as realities. ... >And concepts, merely imagined and actually non-existent, cannot be truthfully said to be unconditioned. Nothing at all can be truthfully predicated of fictions, for fictions do not exist. .... S: Fair enough. As Sukin said before, maybe better just to say they are 'not conditioned' and leave it at that. This is what "asankhata" means, as I understand. Thanks for sharing your other comments. Metta Sarah ====== #100430 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 4:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] MN 62: Maharahulovada Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (& Chew), #100213 --- On Sun, 23/8/09, Ken O wrote: >K: space is not used in the elements meditation. Limited space is used as a kasina as a mediation subject. .... S: Yes, and 'open' space as a non-kasina mediatation subject.... ... >Chapter Nine: Exposition of te Topics of Abhidhamma <<(36) while by removing any of the kasinas, excluding space, and carrying out the preparatory work on the consequent space in terms of "boundlessness" , the first formless [mediation] becomes fixed. .... S: Isn't this (the concept of) the open space, boundless space? ... . >Commentary 36. Since it is not possible to remove the space kasina, excluding space is said The kasina: the counterpart sign By removing: by taking it away by way not bringing it to mind As one does the preparatory work .... in terms of boundlessness: by doing the preparatory work on space, saying to himself "boundless space, boundless space", but not "boundless boundless' alone. It is the same case of the sphere of boundless consciousness ..... >> .... S: What do you understand this to be, if not (the concept) of open space? Metta Sarah ======== #100431 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 4:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Best Laid Plans sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Rita), So sorry to hear about this. Especially for Rita, unfortunate timing to come down with flu. Hope you have another chance to do the lovely-sounding cruise later. At least better for Rita to get the fever and cancel before starting than to be put in solitary confinement for the cruise as has happened to some passengers on some curises struck by swine flu. Kusala and akusala vipaka....different moments of seeing and hearing now. Lots of stories and plans, but all just moments of thinking. As you say, the concepts aren't real. Best wishes to Rita for a speedy recovery and I hope you're spared the bug this time round... Metta Sarah --- On Sat, 29/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: >As Emily Litella used to say on the old 'Laugh In' show, "Never mind!" We had to cancel the cruise, because Rita is running a fever from, apparently, a case of flu. Ah well, the best laid plans ... #100432 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: relying on craving&conceit to get rid of craving&conceit sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & Alex, --- On Sun, 23/8/09, szmicio wrote: >>A: Is it bad to desire to become Arhat? L:>It depends whether it's kusala or akusala citta. You can think of becoming Arahat with kusala chanda or with akusala chanda as well. All depends on conditions. ... S: yes, nearly always with akusala chanda.... ... >Even akusala citta can be a condition for kusala. ... S: Yes. No ignorance or craving, no abhisankhara, no birth, no kusala... Metta Sarah ====== #100433 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 5:35 am Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. kenhowardau Hi Sukin, ------------ <. . .> S: > Just because I'm always arguing against modern interpretations this doesn't qualify me as one of the dinosaurs. ;-) ------------ I won't argue the point. Let's just say in certain moments we can all be dinosaurs. :-) ------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > But, given that there is only the present moment, how are we to > understand waiting? We are to understand it in terms of satipatthana, > aren't we? Suk: Actually it wouldn't be that the Buddha *waited* for a proper time. This is just an idea I superimpose onto the reality / situation. As you say, there is only the present moment. The difference is that the Buddha knowing the accumulations would have taught just what was right at the time. However this `right' didn't mean that citta rooted in panna arising immediately was expected, I would think…? -------------------------- OK thanks; that's good enough for me. These people (who were not ready to be taught satipatthana) must have had some idea of who was teaching them, mustn't they? I wonder if they knew that the Buddha was the Teacher of the Middle Way? I suspect they did. In which case they might have come to him saying "We are not ready to see how there can be a middle way between eternity and annihilation but, even so, please teach something that will be helpful to us." Therefore, when he taught them dana sila and samatha (without satipatthana) they at least knew that those things were *consistent* with the main (unique) teaching of the Buddha. In that manner of speaking, they too were understanding 'every word of the Buddha's teaching in terms of satipatthana' weren't they? Just say yes if it will shut me up. :-) ------------------------ <. . .> S: > I would say now, that he taught dana, sila and samatha *with* satipatthana in mind, but not with the expectation that such understanding arise immediately. The paramis have to be developed, which I believe comes from accumulated kusala. So at any point in time, we can't know what is needed….? ------------------------ No, but at least we can know that dana, sila and samatha are potentially helpful for reaching the middle way (the only way out of suffering). So that is some level of satipatthana that can arise in anyone who has been taught anything by a Buddha. Oh, I just remembered the teeth cleaning example - definitely not about nama and rupa. But I suppose the same principle applies to it. Ken H #100434 From: Geri geri Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 6:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! sac9090 Hi Han tun, I'm sorry I didn't seem to have gotten the list of 20 women.� Where is it? --- On Mon, 8/31/09, christine_forsyth wrote: From: christine_forsyth <..> --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Geri geri and Chris, > > To start with, I am very grateful to Chris for posting the article, Going for Refuge & Taking the Precepts, by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi, which is very useful for me. > > The following is the list of 20 forbidden women, which I got it from a Burmese book. <..> #100435 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 8:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! hantun1 Dear Geri geri, > Geri geri: Hi Han tun, I'm sorry I didn't seem to have gotten the list of 20 women.� Where is it? Han: Please click on the following message. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/100386 Han #100436 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 10:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and Sarah hantun1 Dear Sarah, > Sarah: I'd also say that the four foundations of mindfulness is Anataa vaada! Han: Interesting statement! Can you further elaborate on this, please? I am considering the following in support of your statement. The following passage is repeated again and again in Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Sutta at the end of each chapter. While expanding on this passage, the Burmese Sayadaws stress the abandoning of the underlying ta.nhaa and di.t.thi. And I take it that the abandoning of the di.t.thi component is anattaa vaada. Atthi kaayoti vaa panassa sati paccupa.t.thitaa hoti, yaavadeva ~naa.na-mattaaya pa.tissati-mattaaya. Anissito ca viharati, na ca ki~nci loke upaadiyati. The mindfulness that 'there is a body' is simply established in him, to the extent necessary for bare knowledge and mindfulness. He abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world. Respectfully, Han #100437 From: "philofillet" Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta philofillet Hi Scott and Christine and all I hope you've all been well. I had a nice trip to Canads and didn't do any crack this time. I keep thinking about this topic, it's quite frustrating for me. I feel that I am making good progress with respect to correcting harmful patterns of behaviour (of course it is dhammas that are conditioning and being conditioned) and I sometimes want to turn back to Abhidhamma, which I feel helps loosen sakkaya ditthi, in some little way as long as one doesn't grasp too hungrily at it. (Not easy to avoid.) But alas, it is not just a matter of Christine's friend, it is such people as Bhikkhu Bodhi who often teaches that Abhihdamma came later, was derived from the Buddha's teaching. I think Bhikkhu Bodhi has come to have a disproportionate amount of influence because of his position in the translation and publishing of Dhamma, but the fact that as far as I know the Theravada tradition has not denounced him (maybe those kind of denounciations are not the Buddhist way) suggests to me that it is generally accepted that Abhidhamma evolved in the centuries following the Buddha's passing. Well, at least for me, I can't turn to Abhidhamma now without assuming that is the case. So I am hoping that I will still be able to benefit from studying Abhidhamma as a teaching that extends and deepens the Buddha's teaching in very important ways. I think I'll probably have to deal with this for the rest of my life, because I do want to study Abhidhamma. It would help if powers that be, such as they are in the Theravada tradition, came out and corrected Bhikkhu Bodhi, but until that happens I can't reject what he says again and again.... Just my thoughts. I expect I'll return to Dhamma discussion in January, here or elsewhere. Be well y'all. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > Regarding: > > C: "A friend of mine has stated that the Abhidhamma teaches things not in the Suttas, and that it is a later Teaching, not directly from the Buddha..." > > Scott: I'd leave this friend with his or own views on the matter, if it were me. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #100438 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (6) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/31/2009 11:07:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, Not to argue either, just one quick clarification: --- On Tue, 1/9/09, upasaka@... wrote: >As for concepts, they are not realities, IMO. Thinking is, but not concepts. ... S: Exactly so. No suggestion of concepts as realities. ... >And concepts, merely imagined and actually non-existent, cannot be truthfully said to be unconditioned. Nothing at all can be truthfully predicated of fictions, for fictions do not exist. .... S: Fair enough. As Sukin said before, maybe better just to say they are 'not conditioned' and leave it at that. This is what "asankhata" means, as I understand. ------------------------------------------------- A bit picky, I suppose: But as soon as we say "They are not P ...", where P is some predicate, if meant literally, we are in error. In fact, even to say "Concepts don't exist" is an error unless, as usual, it is intended only as an abbreviation for "There are no such things as concepts." To describe concepts as having or lacking an actual property [forget about "existence" - it is special] is already to imply existence. One could just as well say, for example, that concepts are impermanent as unconditioned, for to be impermanent means only to not be permanent (as to be unconditioned means only to be not conditioned)! The truth is, that it is an error to say that concepts are permanent as much as it is an error to say "they" are impermanent. To assert that "something" is permanent is to assert, in fact, not only that it exists but that it continues in existence. What should be said with regard to any fiction, F, concepts included, is that "except as a figure of speech, there are no F's" No property, or lack of property, should be ascribed to what does not exist. (Imagine someone saying "The Self is neither nama nor rupa," as some Vedantists might say! A Buddhist would properly reply "You are talking about nothing! There is no Self!" ---------------------------------------------------- Thanks for sharing your other comments. Metta Sarah ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100439 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 8:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Best Laid Plans upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - Thank you for this kind email! :-) In a message dated 9/1/2009 12:52:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (& Rita), So sorry to hear about this. Especially for Rita, unfortunate timing to come down with flu. Hope you have another chance to do the lovely-sounding cruise later. At least better for Rita to get the fever and cancel before starting than to be put in solitary confinement for the cruise as has happened to some passengers on some curises struck by swine flu. ----------------------------------------------- Yes! In fact, our travel agent told us this. Also, our friends called us from the ship and told us that when they boarded they had to fill out a questionnaire that, among other things, asked whether the traveler had run any fever in the last couple days. Of course we would have answered truthfully, we would have had to then see medical staff and likely be refused entry! Then we would have had to get our bags, hire transportation, and travel back from the port in Brooklyn, NY to our home on Long Island! Far better that we just canceled our trip. ------------------------------------------------- Kusala and akusala vipaka....different moments of seeing and hearing now. Lots of stories and plans, but all just moments of thinking. As you say, the concepts aren't real. Best wishes to Rita for a speedy recovery and I hope you're spared the bug this time round... -------------------------------------------------- Thanks on both accounts. I myself actually had a bout of asthmatic bronchitis (as I typically do every 6 months or so), but I ran no fever, and, after an antibiotic, only the asthma was left by a few days before cruise time, and that is now diminishing. Happily, I didn't pick up Rita's virus. Rita's doing much better now, by the way: Just a slight elevation of temperature - not a concern, but still very tired. She IS on the mend. The cruise would have been a mistake. ------------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100440 From: "christine_forsyth" Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 7:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philofillet" wrote: > > I keep thinking about this topic, it's quite frustrating for me. I feel that I am making good progress with respect to correcting harmful patterns of behaviour (of course it is dhammas that are conditioning and being conditioned) and I sometimes want to turn back to Abhidhamma, which I feel helps loosen sakkaya ditthi, in some little way as long as one doesn't grasp too hungrily at it. (Not easy to avoid.) But alas, it is not just a matter of Christine's friend, it is such people as Bhikkhu Bodhi who often teaches that Abhihdamma came later, was derived from the Buddha's teaching. > Metta, > > Phil Hello Phil, Yes, it would be great to have some references which show the Abhidhamma was recited/sung at the First and Second Councils - but I haven't been able to find anything that clearly states this in an unequivocal manner. And .... if it wasn't, if it is a Later Teaching, then why not go back to the Sutta-Vinaya? metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #100441 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 10:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta scottduncan2 Dear Phil (and Christine), Regarding: P: "I keep thinking about this topic, it's quite frustrating for me...I sometimes want to turn back to Abhidhamma...it is such people as Bhikkhu Bodhi who often teaches that Abhihdamma came later, was derived from the Buddha's teaching...it is generally accepted that Abhidhamma evolved in the centuries following the Buddha's passing...It would help if powers that be, such as they are in the Theravada tradition, came out and corrected Bhikkhu Bodhi, but until that happens I can't reject what he says again and again...." Scott: This is an endless debate, as far as I'm concerned, Phil. Those who aren't into Abhidhamma can think how they wish. There is no reason to convince anyone. The time was when the list was full of fruitless anti-abhidhamma rhetoric. For what? Those who aren't into it don't have to be. Those who are ought to be left alone. Can you explain why someone finds Abhidhamma to be very useful, while an other thinks it is boring or dangerous or some such? Rhetorical question... I happen to think that those of the Sutta-only crowd are hopelessly mixed-up, thinking they can actually sort out the suttas themselves, but no one cares to solicit my opinion about that. ;-) Glad you had a good summer, Phil. Sincerely, Scott. #100442 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 10:30 pm Subject: Mental Purification! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Seven Stages of Purification! Following the Noble 8-fold Way the mind is purified in 7 stages: 1: Purification of Morality (s ila-visuddhii ). 2: Purification of Mind (citta-visuddhi ). 3: Purification of View (ditthi-visuddhi ). 4: Purification by Overcoming Doubt (kankh a-vitarana-visuddhi). 5: Purification by knowledge & vision of what is P ath and Not-Path. 6: Purification by knowledge and vision of Progress on the P ath . 7: Purification of Knowledge and Vision (ñ anadassana-visuddhi). The classic text is MN 24 Ratha-vinita Sutta: The Relay Chariots: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.024.than.html And for a complete account of Full Mental Purification: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga." by the great explainer Buddhaghosa in 5th century AC well translated by Bhikkhu Ñanamoli. http://www.pariyatti.org/Bookstore/productdetails.cfm?sku=771100 <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #100443 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 1, 2009 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta kenhowardau Hi Phil, (Don't worry if you're not there.) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philofillet" wrote: > > > Hi Scott and Christine and all > > I hope you've all been well. I had a nice trip to Canads and didn't do any crack this time. > > I keep thinking about this topic, it's quite frustrating for me. I feel that I am making good progress with respect to correcting harmful patterns of behaviour ---------- Congratulations, Phil! ------------- Ph: > (of course it is dhammas that are conditioning and being conditioned) --------------- Yes, it's ultimately dhammas. But "Congratulations conditioned dhammas" would have been an inappropriate mixture of terminologies. :-) ---------------------- Ph: > and I sometimes want to turn back to Abhidhamma, which I feel helps loosen sakkaya ditthi, in some little way as long as one doesn't grasp too hungrily at it. (Not easy to avoid.) ----------------------- Grasping at anatta *is* easy to avoid, when compared to grasping at atta. --------------------------------- Ph: > But alas, it is not just a matter of Christine's friend, it is such people as Bhikkhu Bodhi who often teaches that Abhihdamma came later, was derived from the Buddha's teaching. I think Bhikkhu Bodhi has come to have a disproportionate amount of influence because of his position in the translation and publishing of Dhamma, --------------------------------- I agree, B Bodhi does have doubts about some of the Abhidahmma. However, I think he is careful not to suggest that the Abhidhamma *as a whole* was a later invention. Just the parts he has doubts about! --------------------- Ph: > but the fact that as far as I know the Theravada tradition has not denounced him --------------------- I don't know if there is a "Theravada tradition" that can denounce a monk, is there? You will remember a couple of years ago I asked on DSG whether B.B still qualified under the official definition of Theravada monk. (You were quite annoyed at my impertinence.) For health reasons he had been living full-time in a Mahayana monastery and so I wondered if that meant he had not been able to renew his vows in the required manner. Probably none of my business! ----------------- Ph: > (maybe those kind of denounciations are not the Buddhist way) suggests to me that it is generally accepted that Abhidhamma evolved in the centuries following the Buddha's passing. ----------------- It may be generally accepted, but that doesn't mean anything. Wouldn't you agree that the ancient Pali texts were the ultimate authority on this? The Pali texts *can* be interpreted in a way that is consistent throughout. It is only certain modern and Mahayana interpretations that can't fit consistently. So it might be fair to ask if B Bodhi was trying to impose one of those later interpretations. ------------- Ph: > Well, at least for me, I can't turn to Abhidhamma now without assuming that is the case. ------------- Keep reading DSG! There are experts here who can show you an interpretation of the Suttas and Vinaya that has the Abhidhamma running through them from beginning to end. Ken H #100444 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 12:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Please comment on this description of the path jonoabb Hi pt Thanks for the interest in this subject, and apologies for the delay in replying (I am away from home on a work trip at the moment). (100392) > Though I find the accumulations approach useful, I don't know how to bring it to a logical conclusion regarding the point of origin. For example, if we say that development of X (samatha, vipassana, or whatever mental property) in this life depends on the development of X in the previous life, then the same is true for the life before that, and the life before that, and so on. > > However, the above explanation also logically implies that if there was no X in the previous life to begin with, then no X can ever be developed in this or subsequent lives. So then, the only way (that I can think of) to develop X in the first place would have to be through an "outside influence" - accident (like meeting a Buddha), a divine intervention, or through one's own intention (i.e. a self that intends). But then, if everything is a result of accumulations, then there are no accidents (meeting a Buddha is also due to accumulations), the same would be true of a divine intervention, and there's no conventional self-intention either because it is just a cetasika dependent or previous accumulations. So, all this still doesn't provide a solution. > > I hope this explains the logical problem I'm unable to solve and would be interested to hear how you and others have solved it. The "logical problem" you mention is similar to the question as to how conditions first came to be, or how anything first came to be. The Buddha did not attempt an explanation of this. He only said that a beginning was not discernable. For us, the question of a solution to this conundrum is a purely intellectual exercise and, as such, not of much value. What we do know is that every one of us has been in the round of existence for so long that tendencies of all kinds have at some time or another been developed and thus accumulated. Do you see the question of first beginning as one that must be answered in some manner? Jon #100445 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 12:10 am Subject: Re: Practice of Dhamma in accordance with Dhamma SN 55.5 jonoabb Hi Alex (100411) > As you know, the suttas tell us that one of the limbs for stream entry is practice of Dhamma according to the Dhamma. > > 1 Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. > 2 Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. > 3 Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. > 4 Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. > - SN 55.5 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html#Heading4 > > What is the 4th Factor (Practice in accordance with the Dhamma)? > How is it accomplished? > How is it different from Appropriate attention? In paramattha dhamma terms: - "appropriate attention" is a mental factor that accompanies every moment of kusala consciousness. - "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" is a moment of mundane insight (i.e., satipatthana or sati-sampajjanna). Hoping this helps. Jon #100446 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 12:13 am Subject: Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta jonoabb Hi Chris (100418) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello all, > > A friend of mine has stated that the Abhidhamma teaches things not in the Suttas, and that it is a later Teaching, not directly from the Buddha. He states: > > "1. This does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka... > > The process of the 17 thought moments in a complete perception is as follow: ... > > 2. The Heart Base in the analysis of material element does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka. > > 3. The concept of Rebirth Linking Consciousness does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka." > > Does the Abhidhamma contain teachings not given in the Suttas, even obliquely, by the Buddha? How would you answer the above? The 3 instances raised by your friend are well-known and oft-mentioned instances of Theravada orthodoxy that are not found expressed in so many words in the suttas. The 17 moments of the thought process were not explicated as such until well after the time of the Buddha (I've seen it said as late as the Abhidhammattha Sangaha) For me, the question is not whether they were "spoken" by the Buddha, but whether they are consistent with what the Buddha said or not. If they are consistent, then I'd treat them like anything else: hypothetical unless and until verified. Jon PS As regards the second point (heart base), "base" is mentioned in the suttas, but it is not identified as the "heart base". #100447 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 12:30 am Subject: Re: Practice of Dhamma in accordance with Dhamma SN 55.5 truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (100411) > > As you know, the suttas tell us that one of the limbs for stream entry is practice of Dhamma according to the Dhamma. > > > > 1 Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. > > 2 Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. > > 3 Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. > > 4 Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. > > - SN 55.5 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html#Heading4 > > > > What is the 4th Factor (Practice in accordance with the Dhamma)? > > How is it accomplished? > > How is it different from Appropriate attention? > > In paramattha dhamma terms: > - "appropriate attention" is a mental factor that accompanies every moment of kusala consciousness. > - "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" is a moment of mundane insight (i.e., satipatthana or sati-sampajjanna). > > Hoping this helps. > > Jon > Thanks Jon, And hows does it achieved? How does one practice in accordance with the dhamma? With metta, Alex #100448 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 2:55 am Subject: Re: Practice of Dhamma in accordance with Dhamma SN 55.5 jonoabb Hi Alex (100447) > > In paramattha dhamma terms: > > - "appropriate attention" is a mental factor that accompanies every moment of kusala consciousness. > > - "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" is a moment of mundane insight (i.e., satipatthana or sati-sampajjanna). > > Thanks Jon, > > And hows does it achieved? How does one practice in accordance with the dhamma? There are different meanings of the term "practice". In some contexts, such as practising the piano or practising a sport, practice means the doing of something as a preparation for doing the activity proper (this may be a simulation/approximation of the activity or some other form of preparation). In other contexts, however, such as practice of medicine or practice of the law, etc, it refers only to the proper doing of the activity itself, and not to an approximation or preparation for it. In the expression "practice in accordance with the Dhamma", the term "practice" means the actual moment of consciousness accompanied by insight that knows something about the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. It does not mean undertaking some kind of activity with a view to having that consciousness occur. As to *how* this "practice" occurs, the only answer that can be given is "by conditions", because it's not something that can be made to occur. And those conditions are simply the preceding 3 factors mentioned in the sutta, namely, association with people of integrity, listening to the true Dhamma and appropriate attention to what has been heard and understood. Do you see the progression involved in the series of 4 factors mentioned in the sutta, each being a condition for the natural arising of the next? Jon #100449 From: "philofillet" Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 3:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta philofillet Hi Scott (and Christine and Lukas) and all > Scott: This is an endless debate, as far as I'm concerned, Phil. Those who aren't into Abhidhamma can think how they wish. There is no reason to convince anyone. The time was when the list was full of fruitless anti-abhidhamma rhetoric. For what? Those who aren't into it don't have to be. Those who are ought to be left alone. Can you explain why someone finds Abhidhamma to be very useful, while an other thinks it is boring or dangerous or some such? Rhetorical question... Ph: I was thinking more about this issue. I think it has something to do with saddha, faith. I mean, to a certain extent there is always a kind of faith involved when we approach the Dhamma. Who knows what really came directly from the Buddha and what was expanded on in the retelling? In my case, when it comes to certain suttas I can have that faith confirmed to some degree by having the teaching confired to some degree. (yes, there is always some degree of personal interpreting as well, clinging to my own notions.) In the case of Abhihdamma, such points as - for example - the 17 moments of a citta, there is not likely to be a confirmation, so the teaching must be taken on a blinder kind of faith. Now the problem for me (and I am not intending to reignite the endless debate, honestly, I'm just trying to work out something that has been causing me trouble) is that my faith in Abhidhamma can't fully surive having read about historical evidence that it came later. That is a reflections of dhammas at work, including of course some degrees of panna and saddha and doubt and others, mostly akusala. I notice that Lukas wrote to Christine "there is no doubt" that Abhidhamma came directly from the Buddha. Now, in that "there is no doubt" there can be any various degrees of wisdom, faith or on the other hand delusion at work? People who really turn on to the Dhamma are usually well-educated, rational people who are able to analye historical developments lucidly. So what is it that allows us to have utmost faith in Abhidhamma despite the historical evidence. I think there is a kind of wholesome saddha that involves a kind of disregarding of contrary evidence. To be able to benefit from Abhidhamma there has to be a kind of saddha and virya and wisdom that just plunges ahead and believes. Otherise contrary evidence and historical based debates will disturb one's Abhidhamma studies, the way they have for me. Nina, for example, is surely not bothered by any contrary evidence. Her (so to speak) saddha and panna and whatnot perform their functions uninterruptedly when it comes to Abhidhamma. Is there also some kind of delusion involved? Yes, I think there has to be. I think there is a sutta that gets at the necessity of just believing for believing's sake, believing something provisionally, laying aside any doubts for the time being and belieiving whole-heartedly. That's not there for me now, the doubts interfere, particularly with such things as the 17 mind moments which feels so arbitrary to me now, especially since they are certainly not in the suttanta. (On the other hand, the maximum 7 rebirths of the sotapanna that we do find in the suttanta also feels arbitrary, but in that case the 7 can indicate a degree of liberation rather than a specific number.) Thanks for letting me think outloud Scott. Christine's post caught my attention not because I wanted to dispute the value of Abhidhamma so much as because I *want* to believe in Abhidhamma but have been struggling for the last little while. But as you said, what make some people believe it's valuable and others not. It's all about dhammas and I believe the way these dhammas play out is most certainly beyond our control. > I happen to think that those of the Sutta-only crowd are hopelessly mixed-up, thinking they can actually sort out the suttas themselves, but no one cares to solicit my opinion about that. ;-) Ph: I still think it depends on the sutta. Some are to be sorted out easily, particularly the teachings that are not "particular to the Buddha", the kind of teachings he offered to people whose minds he knew were not ready for the deep teachings. I think many suttas in Anguttara Nikaya, for example, can be understood clearly in the way they wre meant to be understood by the Buddha without assistance. (Not all of them though, there are some very, very deep suttas in AN.) On the other hand, I shy away from most of the deep suttas in MN and all of SN12 on D.O because they are so certainly beyond my shallow comprehension. Anyways, nice touching bases with you Scott, and all. I look forward to discussing with you more intelligently in the future than I have in the past. Metta, Phil p.s one thing that always hits me when I go back to Canada and see friends and relatives and catch up on "what's new" is that I can never share with them how important the Dhamma is in my life. I make some vague references to being "deeply interested in Buddhist psychology" but the great central passion of my life, the Dhamma, must always go unspoken, even with my deepest and dearest friends and family members. People don't ask why I don't drink anymore, but if they did, I probably wouldn't say "the Buddha says not to" which is why I don't. I guess that's just the way it goes - the Dhamma can't be discussed unless there is an opening on the part of the listener. So I do appreciate having friends I can discuss with online. Eventually I should try harder with people. I get the feeling Sarah, for example, is very good at trying to share the Dhamma with people.... #100450 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (7) sarahprocter... Dear Chew, Ann & all, Discussion contd. **** Nina: Lodewijk had a question. We were talking about the unconditioned akasa and he was wondering when we are breathing in - what do we breathe in? Is it not air or space or what, he was wondering about it. Sujin: When there is no mahabhuta rupa, it must be space. Nina: If there is no mahabhuta rupa.... Sujin: There is space. Sukin: But there must be in the case of breathing... Sujin: Anywhere, anytime, when there is no mahabhuta rupa or the other rupas, there must be space. Sukin: ....but in breath, there's always hardness, softness and that's because there is mahabhuta... Sujin: Whenever there is not these, then there is this [unconditioned akasa]. Nina: So there must be heat or cold or... Sujin: Then at that moment heat is not space, but when there is no mahabhuta, there must be space. Nina: Yes. Ann: So the air we breathe in, the air element, motion, pressure, right? Nina: Yes, he was wondering what are we breathing in. I couldn't answer, I didn't know. Ann: Am I correct that the air element, motion, pressure, is one of the mahabhuta rupas? Sarah: [Among the] 8 inseperables. Ann: Is that correct? Sujin: And when there are not these rupas, there must be space, no matter where. Sarah: All around us, like now in the nostrils, there is the other kind of space, in the cavity, not separating the mahabhuta rupas. Ann: The conditioned or unconditioned one? Sarah: The unconditioned one. Ann: There is mahabhuta rupa there as well. Sarah: Yes and where there is no mahabhuta, there is the other [unconditioned akasa] one. Ann: I gues where I'm getting confused is where there is mahabhuta rupa existing and where it doesn't. Sujin: Can you see the mahabhuta rupa? Ann: No. Sujin: It's unseen, but it's there. Ann: Yes, because I can see how there has to be motion, pressure just to breathe in. ***** Metta Sarah ======== #100451 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 3:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, We were discussing the Bhikkhuni Sutta and tan.ha as condition for understanding. --- On Fri, 28/8/09, scottduncan2 wrote: >>Sarah: "Yes. I think not just as object (which of course must be known), but also as nat.decisive support condition." >Scott: Can you say more about exactly what dhamma might be serving as natural decisive support condition? Or might you be referring to how certain thoughts about things serve as that condition? Or what in particular is the conditioning factor? ... Sarah: All dhammas are based on avijja and tan.ha apart from the lokuttara cittas. In this way, avijja and tan.ha act as natural decisive support condition for even the highest jhana cittas and vipassana cittas. However, this doesn't mean that tan.ha will directly lead to the path or to becoming an arahat! Only right understanding will do this. It may be out of desire that we open the text or listen to the Dhamma, but it is right understanding which sees it for what it is - harmful and the cause of Dukkha. Still, we can say the tan.ha was a natural decisive support condition to read or listen. If we think that following tan.ha is the way to develop more wisdom or understanding of the Teachings, however, we go wrong. ... ... >Scott: I think I know what you mean, Sarah. I'd still suggest that even when one refers to 'subtle cravings and conceits' one is still referring to that which arises prior to the thoughts that come later. One is still dealing with an autonomous and impersonal sequence of moments of consciousness which, naturally, serve in many ways as condition for the ongoing process, if that makes sense. As I see it, one is never referring to a very non-subtle notion that the thoughts about craving or aversion make anything happen. >The central differentiating factor I see in any discussion occurring on this list is in the way in which anatta is understood. This may be a subtle or not-so-subtle factor, but it is as clear as can be when two discussants differ in how this is understood. I would say that the way you and I see anatta differs radically from the way others see it. This may account for the famous 'DSG view' that is so often mentioned. And this shows in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. ... Sarah: I think it also accounts for the doubts about the Abhidhamma -the doubts that what the Buddha taught was about seeing now, hearing now, impersonal dhammas now. Thanks for your helpful comments, Scott. Metta Sarah ====== #100452 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] comprehension of Nutriment edible food sarahprocter... Hi Alex, #100232 This was a very interesting piece. --- On Mon, 24/8/09, truth_aerator wrote: >I took a commenterial explanation of comprehension of meditation subject of nutriment food and added some abhidhammic (dhatukatha) analysis. >============ ======= Nutriment Edible Food "If, O monks, the nutriment edible food is comprehended, the lust for the five sense-objects is (thereby) comprehended. And if lust for the five sense-objects is comprehended, there is no fetter enchained by which a noble disciple might come to this world again" [anagami stage and if coupled with examination of mentality, then Arhatship] http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ sn/sn12/sn12. 063.than. html >Comprehension: "If the nutriment edible food is comprehended (parinnate). .." â€" if comprehended by the three kinds of comprehension (parinna): comprehension as the known, as investigating, and abandoning. In which way? <...> S: I'd be interested to know what your sources were for the commentary and "Abhidhammic analysis." I'm very glad to see your growing interest in the Abhidhamma, Alex. Look forward to further discussion. Metta Sarah ======== #100453 From: "philofillet" Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 3:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta philofillet Hi Christine > Hello Phil, > > Yes, it would be great to have some references which show the Abhidhamma was recited/sung at the First and Second Councils - but I haven't been able to find anything that clearly states this in an unequivocal manner. > > And .... if it wasn't, if it is a Later Teaching, then why not go back to the Sutta-Vinaya? Perhaps you are in the same boat as me these days on Abhidhamma. I think we can keep doing our best to stay open to it and we will find (well, panna will find our lobha will find or X will find) certain areas that are very helpful in better understanding anatta. For example, even if we have trouble fully accepting the 17 moments of citta, surely the way Abhidhamma lays out cetasikas and the way they shade mental moments can be much more helpful, for just one example. Maybe even if we are not able to accept Abhidhamma as coming straight from the Buddha we can be deeply impressed that it was expounded by Arahants that followed direcly in his footprints, taking his teaching that and clarifying it in ways that make it easier to understand properly. For example, the teaching of cetasikas helps, I think. The teaching of 17 moments of a citta is less helpful to us now...but maybe it will be someday. Who can say? Anyways, nice touching base with you. Hope all is wheel at Dhammawheel. I'm going to continue abstaining from all online discussion (more or less) for the rest of the year and see where my interenet addiction is in January. Metta, Phil #100454 From: "philofillet" Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta philofillet Hi again Scott, Christine and all I wrote: > > > Thanks for letting me think outloud Scott. Christine's post caught my attention not because I wanted to dispute the value of Abhidhamma so much as because I *want* to believe in Abhidhamma but have been struggling for the last little while. But as you said, what make some people believe it's valuable and others not. It's all about dhammas and I believe the way these dhammas play out is most certainly beyond our control. Re-reading the above, I am reminded that I *have* been able to accept the Abhidhamma teaching of dhammas performing specific functions, that doubts about the dhamma theory not being taught in the suttanta, doubts about indidualized dhammas having particular specific characteristics, the kind of doubts that if I'm not mistaken Howard and TG and others often mention, don't bother me. So in that case dhammas are allowing me, so to speak, to believe in Abhidhamma in some areas and not others. Who knows why? Interesting. Metta, Phil #100455 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] comprehension of Nutriment edible food sarahprocter... Dear Alex, (Nina & all) N:>> you gave a long post with a quote from the commentary. A suggestion: > can you divide this in small parts and also add your own comments on > this? ... S: I agree with Nina. It would be helpful to repost 100232, one para at a time, giving the sources (and any comments of your own) for further discussion. Nina would be happy if you started when she returns in a few days. Meanwhile, you asked Nina and perhaps I can add a few comments: A:>can you please double check my analysis of process of eating using dhatukatha style. >Lust for food is a mental (nama) reality that comes under mental formation aggregate, cognizable object base and cognizable object element. sankharakkhando - dhammayatana - dhamma dhatu ... S: Yes. Of course, this is just lust. The object of lust can be almost anything. ... A:>Seeing the appearance of the food by looking at it refers to mental reality, eye-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and eye-consciousness element. ... S: Seeing just sees visible object of course, not "the appearance of the food". Yes, mind-base- manayatana. ... A:> Shape&color of food is material quality, the visible object element, which comes under matter aggregate, visible object base and visible object element. .... S: Colour is a rupa, the visible object element, as you say, but not shape. Shape is a concept. Otherwise correct. ... A:> When liquid is poured into it or into cup, or chewing food, there is hearing a sound. The hearing of a sound refers to mental reality, ear-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and ear-consciousness element. ... S: OK. ... A:> An objective sound itself refers to material quality, sound element, which comes under matter aggregate, sound base and sound element. <..> ... S: Yes, OK and the part snipped all good down to: .. A:>The taste itself is material quality, earth/water/ fire elements, which comes under matter aggregate, taste object base and taste object element. ... S: The taste itself is a rupa, raso. It is not earth/water/fire elements. Of course, the taste (raso) has to arise in a kalapa (group of rupas) and earth/water/fire elements are 3 of the mahabhuta(great) elements which also always arise in any kalapa. So it always arises with them. .... A:> To have good or bad memory of food eaten long ago, this is mental quality, mental factor of perception which comes under perception aggregate, cognizable base and cognizable element. >The be happy or sad about eating food refers to mental reality that comes under mental formation aggregate, cognizable base and cognizable element ... S: Yes, very good, Alex. I'm very impressed by your careful study and reflection. I've always said to Jon that I think it's just a matter of time before you learn to really appreciate the Abhidhamma:-) And then, no more questions or arguments about its authenticity:-)) (The last comment is for others, not for a response, lol!) Metta Sarah ========== #100456 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 4:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, Sukin & all, --- On Fri, 28/8/09, kenhowardau wrote: ------------ ---- >S: > I have an idea that this topic (developing kusala that isn't satipatthana) is somehow at the root of one or two of your topics on dana that came up in KK andBkk which we had difficulty following you on. ------------ ----- K:>I am still flabbergasted. It was such a shock - at that elite gathering of no-controllers - to be told there could be no dana without an *act* of dana. I certainly wouldn't suggest that all of you were wrong and I, alone, was right. But, to my troubled mind, an act that takes place over several moments is pannatti. It can't affect anything. Ultimately, there is never an act of dana. ... S: I was wrong about the threads being related, but since we're here again... What about kamma that brings result? There is only one cetana at a time, one cetana that brings a result, but it has to have 'accumulated', it takes the force of many, many cetanas or that particular one to be kamma patha. Perhaps we can say the same about dana? It is alobha cetasika, but one alobha cetasika without the support of many other cittas, couldn't bring a result. Again, it is the cetana which is the kamma patha, but kamma is so complicated, isn't it? ... >There also has to be a gift, doesn't there? And a sentient being to receive the gift? It's all so confusing. Why can't those things be written off as mere 'stories' that satipatthana students don't need to concern themselves with? ... S: Satipatthana doesn't mean no thinking about concepts as we all always stress! Still a conventional world, even though we know it's only that... Anyway, do persevere with the qus on this... and your own theories which you're keeping quiet about....Let's drag Sukin into this one as well... What do you think about this, Sukin? ... >PS: I don't like this subject heading. It's not true, is it? :-) ... S: Lol! When I first read it (in a message from Suan), my first reaction was to change it in reply, perhaps trying to be a smarty-pants, perhaps including Suan's name. Then I thought, 'no, let it stay'. I thought about a child in a Charles Dickens novel that has to wear the 'Dunce-hat' in class and I thought that it's only maana (conceit) that has any problem with any of the sharp or put-down comments that appear from time to time here... I'm always glad when it's me and not anyone else, actually. As for whether it's true, well everyone will come to their own conclusions anyway :-). Metta Sarah ======== #100457 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 4:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ten or Eleven? sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- On Wed, 26/8/09, han tun wrote: >Han: Thank you very much for wishing me to be around for many years. But the end may be approaching fast. I have weakness of the muscles of the whole body since beginning of last year. I get easily tired.<...> >But I am not worried. It is more of a nuisance than worry or fear. ... S: Yes, the dukkha of old age as we've discussed before. Still, as Nina said, it's wonderful that you're so alert mentally and have so much interest (chanda) for studying and understanding the Dhamma. This is most precious as you know. ... >p.s. I am writing all these, so that when you get old, and if you experience generalized muscle weakness, not to get worried! ... S: I appreciate your kindness. Jon and I have both had quite a few health issues over the years, some pretty serious, but the Dhamma is such a blessing. When one reflects on the Dhamma and especially when there is awareness of realities, there's no thought at such times about oneself or one's many problems. The calm seclusion momentarily and then back to following one's mate tan.ha around again... Metta Sarah ======= #100458 From: "philofillet" Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 5:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta philofillet Hi Ken > I > feel that I am making good progress with respect to correcting harmful > patterns of behaviour > ---------- > > Congratulations, Phil! > > ------------- I missed this the first time, Ken. Thanks. I do really feel that the weakening of the tendency towards - and eventually the completely eradication of - harmful patterns of behaviour is fundamental to the Buddha's teaching - whether we accept that conventional actions are important or whether it is only about the dhammas at work. Metta, Phil #100459 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 6:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta szmicio Dear Phil, For sure you should stay more on DSG. Why once every half a year ;> ? >Phil: Anyways, nice touching base with you. Hope all is wheel at >Dhammawheel. I'm going to continue abstaining from all online >discussion (more or less) for the rest of the year and see where my >interenet addiction is in January. L: that kind of abstaining is called patimokkha samvara. What about ~nana samvara and sati samvara? Best wishes Lukas #100460 From: Geri geri Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 7:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! sac9090 Thanks for the info. Also do you know the sutta where a human seeker went as far as to the brahma realms to ask where the 4 elements cease? Only to be told by the Great Brahma to go back to the Buddha and ask him? --- On Tue, 9/1/09, han tun wrote: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/dhammastud ygroup/message/ 100386 #100461 From: Geri geri Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 7:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! sac9090 Also, we have the list of forbidden women. But what about the list of forbidden men for women practitioners? #100462 From: "philofillet" Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta philofillet Hi Lukas Thanks for your encouragement. But I really am enjoying my time away from the internet. Of course happiness is not the purpose of the Buddha's teaching but I invariably feel happier, fresher, more energetic, brighter, more generous on days after *not* using the internet. And it is my experience that on such days there is easier settling into meditation, more patient reflection on the teaching. I don't know why that is, maybe some kind of neurological thing, but the internet is bad for me. Also, I like to plough ahead with my Buddhist practice without depending on others - sometimes. But we all know how much emphasis the Buddha put on Dhamma friendship and Dhamma discussion so I will be back someday. You have a groovy enthusiasm for the Dhamma, Lukas! Keep it up! Metta, Phil #100463 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! hantun1 Hi Geri geri, (1) Thanks for the info. Also do you know the sutta where a human seeker went as far as to the brahma realms to ask where the 4 elements cease? Only to be told by the Great Brahma to go back to the Buddha and ask him? Han: I do not know that sutta. ------------------------------------ (2) Also, we have the list of forbidden women. But what about the list of forbidden men for women practitioners? Han: I have not come across a list of forbidden men for the women. But I consider the message from Chris answers your question. The following is the extract from that message: [In the case of women, for those who are married, any man other than a husband is an illicit partner.] For the full message of Chris, please click on the following post. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/100385 Han #100464 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 12:38 pm Subject: Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta szmicio Dear Phil, > Thanks for your encouragement. But I really am enjoying my time away from the internet. Of course happiness is not the purpose of the Buddha's teaching but I invariably feel happier, fresher, more energetic, brighter, more generous on days after *not* using the internet. And it is my experience that on such days there is easier settling into meditation, more patient reflection on the teaching. I don't know why that is, maybe some kind of neurological thing, but the internet is bad for me. L: This is very normal thing that you feel like that after not using internet or not discussing. That's patimokkha samvara or maybe even viriya and khanti samvara ;> This is the silla anisamsa. The benefit of siila. That's good. But on the other side look at Sarah! She's talking a lot and stil no matter what happens, whatever she says, she's calm or she understands. I like to observe Sarah, she reminds me that all dhammas, kusala or not can be an object/condition for understanding. She's really the master of ~nana samvara and sati samvara :D >Phil: Also, I like to plough ahead with my Buddhist practice without depending on others - sometimes. But we all know how much emphasis the Buddha put on Dhamma friendship and Dhamma discussion so I will be back someday. L: Yes, just friendship. The people like you and Han are always a big example to me. You are very serious in kusala development. I want to be like you. My best wishes Lukas #100465 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 8:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Ken, and Sukin) - In a message dated 9/2/2009 12:26:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Ken H, Sukin & all, --- On Fri, 28/8/09, kenhowardau wrote: ------------ ---- >S: > I have an idea that this topic (developing kusala that isn't satipatthana) is somehow at the root of one or two of your topics on dana that came up in KK andBkk which we had difficulty following you on. ------------ ----- K:>I am still flabbergasted. It was such a shock - at that elite gathering of no-controllers - to be told there could be no dana without an *act* of dana. I certainly wouldn't suggest that all of you were wrong and I, alone, was right. But, to my troubled mind, an act that takes place over several moments is pannatti. It can't affect anything. Ultimately, there is never an act of dana. ... S: I was wrong about the threads being related, but since we're here again... What about kamma that brings result? There is only one cetana at a time, one cetana that brings a result, but it has to have 'accumulated', it takes the force of many, many cetanas or that particular one to be kamma patha. Perhaps we can say the same about dana? It is alobha cetasika, but one alobha cetasika without the support of many other cittas, couldn't bring a result. Again, it is the cetana which is the kamma patha, but kamma is so complicated, isn't it? ... >There also has to be a gift, doesn't there? And a sentient being to receive the gift? It's all so confusing. Why can't those things be written off as mere 'stories' that satipatthana students don't need to concern themselves with? ... S: Satipatthana doesn't mean no thinking about concepts as we all always stress! Still a conventional world, even though we know it's only that... ====================================== This is exactly what I was driving at a while back when speaking of aggregations of phenomena, and of dhammas "acting in concert." A collection of interrelated, mutually conditioning dhammas is only a collection, and is only conventionally viewed as an individual. The conditioning "action" is due to the dhammas, but their acting in concert is critical to that conditionality, and that acting in concert occurs across a period of time, with not all the dhammas co-occurring. There is a multiplicity of interrelated phenomena that, together, condition a multiplicity of dhammas, usually also interrelated in complex ways. Our "story" explanation of this is our usual talk of conventional objects and actions. The details are enormously complex, very, very far from simple, with both the everyday, conventional stories and partial-abhidhammic stories that ignore interrelationships and time both falling short, IMO. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100466 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 1:00 pm Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (47) hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah (Chew), > Han: If a ruupa arises together with other ruupas and falls away together with them, how can it maintain the life of other ruupas? Apart from sahajaata paccaya, and the simile of flame and lamp, is there any other explanation? > Sarah: Nina's away for a few days. By faculty condition (indriya paccaya), I believe. Remember the simile of the wet-nurse taking care of the baby without a mother in describing life-faculty (jivitindriya ruupa)? I don't have my texts here, but I remember U Narada giving a lot of helpful detail on it in "Guide to Conditional Relations", a summary of the Patthaana. Life-faculty controls kamma-produced matter so that it extends the life of these rupas by life-faculty condition. It does this only after the first moment of the arising of rupa, so after the rupas have arisen by kamma (and conascence) conditions. If you have time, take a look in 'Useful Posts' under 'Life-faculty'. You'll find many of Nina's quotes from the Visuddhimagga, Tiika and so on there. Chew & others may have more to add as well. -------------------- Han: The above comments by Sarah and the following messages from Useful Posts will be enough for me on this issue. 27698, 28429, 28480, 28535, 28679, 28681, 29012, 37088, 41336, 41807, 41846, 41904, 41992, 42037, 42235, 70170, 75993, 77110 I will study them slowly. Therefore, no need to reply to my above question. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #100467 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 9:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] comprehension of Nutriment edible food truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > #100232 > > This was a very interesting piece. > > --- On Mon, 24/8/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >I took a commenterial explanation of comprehension of meditation subject of nutriment food and added some abhidhammic (dhatukatha) analysis. > > > >============ ======= > Nutriment Edible Food > "If, O monks, the nutriment edible food is comprehended, the lust for the five sense-objects is (thereby) comprehended. And if lust for the five sense-objects is comprehended, there is no fetter enchained by which a noble disciple might come to this world again" [anagami stage and if coupled with examination of mentality, then Arhatship] > http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ sn/sn12/sn12. 063.than. html > > >Comprehension: "If the nutriment edible food is comprehended (parinnate). .." â€" if comprehended by the three kinds of comprehension (parinna): comprehension as the known, as investigating, and abandoning. In which way? > <...> > > S: I'd be interested to know what your sources were for the commentary and "Abhidhammic analysis." > > I'm very glad to see your growing interest in the Abhidhamma, Alex. > > Look forward to further discussion. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > Hi Sarah, (and all interested) Sources: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel105.html#t-26 For elements & bases analysis I used examples in dhatukatha (discourse on Elements Abh) book. With metta, Alex #100468 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 2, 2009 10:01 pm Subject: Re: Practice of Dhamma in accordance with Dhamma SN 55.5 truth_aerator Hi Jon (and all interested), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (100447) > > > In paramattha dhamma terms: > > > - "appropriate attention" is a mental factor that accompanies every moment of kusala consciousness. > > > - "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" is a moment of mundane insight (i.e., satipatthana or sati-sampajjanna). > > > > Thanks Jon, > > > > And hows does it achieved? How does one practice in accordance with the dhamma? > > There are different meanings of the term "practice". > > In some contexts, such as practising the piano or practising a sport, practice means the doing of something as a preparation for doing the activity proper (this may be a simulation/approximation of the activity or some other form of preparation). > > In other contexts, however, such as practice of medicine or practice of the law, etc, it refers only to the proper doing of the activity itself, and not to an approximation or preparation for it. > Interesting analysis. > In the expression "practice in accordance with the Dhamma", the >term "practice" means the actual moment of consciousness accompanied >by insight that knows something about the true nature of a presently >arising dhamma. It does not mean undertaking some kind of activity >with a view to having that consciousness occur. There are few suttas in SN that talk about practice in accordance with the dhamma. Can you please comment? "At Savatthi. "For a monk practicing the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma, what accords with the Dhamma is this: that he keep cultivating disenchantment [& anicca, dukkha, anatta] with regard to form, [alex: and other 4 aggregates]... " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.039.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.040.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.041.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.042.than.html Exactly how does "one" do it? By appropriate attention that is conditioned by hearing (reading) true Dhamma? > As to *how* this "practice" occurs, the only answer that can be >given is "by conditions", because it's not something that can be >made to occur. But what about the conditions themselves? What are their conditions and how much can they be made to occur? >And those conditions are simply the preceding 3 >factors mentioned >in the sutta, namely, association with people of >integrity, >listening to the true Dhamma and appropriate attention to >what has >been heard and understood. > >Do you see the progression involved in the series of 4 factors >mentioned in the sutta, each being a condition for the natural >arising of the next? > > Jon > Yes, those conditions do seem to follow a progression. With metta, Alex #100469 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 2:05 am Subject: Re: Practice of Dhamma in accordance with Dhamma SN 55.5 jonoabb Hi Alex (100468) > There are few suttas in SN that talk about practice in accordance with the dhamma. Can you please comment? > > "At Savatthi. "For a monk practicing the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma, what accords with the Dhamma is this: that he keep cultivating disenchantment [& anicca, dukkha, anatta] with regard to form, [alex: and other 4 aggregates]... " > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.039.than.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.040.than.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.041.than.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.042.than.html > > Exactly how does "one" do it? > =============== Just as for "practice", "cultivating" is not something that is *done*,but something that *happens*. So cultivating disenchantment is the arising of kusala consciousness accompanied by panna with forms (etc) as object. =============== > By appropriate attention that is conditioned by hearing (reading) true Dhamma? =============== Again, the connection is one of natural occurrence rather than one of doing something in order to achieve a certain result. Association with the right person leads naturally to hearing the Dhamma explained in a way that is appropriate for us. That hearing leads naturally to useful reflection on what has been heard, and that in turn to an increase in an intellectual understanding of the way things are in truth and reality. =============== > > As to *how* this "practice" occurs, the only answer that can be >given is "by conditions", because it's not something that can be >made to occur. > > But what about the conditions themselves? What are their conditions and how much can they be made to occur? =============== The conditions are not *made* to occur. They occur because of past interest in, and developed understanding of, the teachings. Association with the right person, for example, can only happen as the result of past kamma. =============== > >Do you see the progression involved in the series of 4 factors >mentioned in the sutta, each being a condition for the natural >arising of the next? > > Yes, those conditions do seem to follow a progression. =============== It's a progression that happens without having to be *worked at*. When we discuss regularly aspects of the teachings such as dhammas as mere impersonal elements, it gradually becomes clearer what is meant by visible object or seeing consciousness as an element, not belonging to anyone. Jon #100470 From: "philofillet" Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 3:06 am Subject: Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta philofillet Hi again Lukas > But on the other side look at Sarah! She's talking a lot and stil no matter what happens, whatever she says, she's calm or she understands. I like to observe Sarah, she reminds me that all dhammas, kusala or not can be an object/condition for understanding. She's really the master of ~nana samvara and sati samvara :D Ph: Yes it's interesting, why are some people so consistently patient with contrary views and others far less patient and generous? Of course that sort of thing is due to conditions that have been at work for many lifetimes and largely lie outside our control. But they can be influenced in better directions. To be honest, I sometimes wonder to what extent Sarah's experience with the Mahasi Sayadaw style of meditation, all that "noting" that goes on, contributed to her current patience? Who knows, we'd have to have known her before that to know. In any case, I know I like to think about stories about people and characters more than others (including you, I imagine) do. I think it is thinking about conventional aspects of behaviour, reflecting on them, that guides them in the good direction, and within the shelter of conventional behaviour that has been guided (by conditions, of course) in the right direction, deeper understanding can arise. But that's just how I see it. > > >Phil: Also, I like to plough ahead with my Buddhist practice without depending on others - sometimes. But we all know how much emphasis the Buddha put on Dhamma friendship and Dhamma discussion so I will be back someday. > > L: Yes, just friendship. The people like you and Han are always a big example to me. You are very serious in kusala development. I want to be like you. Ph: Thanks Lukas.I think I am more about avoiding akusala than I am about developing kusala. I think there can be a lot of the former that is not dependent on being kusala in the strictest, abhidhamma sense. i.e, it can involve a lot of clinging to self and all kinds of self-rooted desires. I think it has to at first, and I think the Buddha teaches that way. But that's another topic! You can see how I'm itching to let loose again here, but I will step back now! Keep developing your knowledge of the texts Lukas so I can benefit from your rapidly expanding knowledge when I come, someday, to discussing in the terms that you and Scott and others do. It's cool. Metta, Phil #100471 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 3:32 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (48) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 5. Subtle Ruupas produced by Kamma (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ The heart-base (hadayavatthu) is another ruupa produced solely by kamma. In the planes of existence where there are naama and ruupa, cittas have a physical place of origin, a base (vatthu). Seeing-consciousness has as its base the eye-base, the ruupa which is eyesense, and even so have the other sense-cognitions their appropriate bases where they arise. Apart from the sense-bases there is another base: the heart-base. This is the place of origin for all cittas other than the sense-cognitions. At the first moment of life the rebirth-consciousness (pa.tisandhi-citta) which arises is produced by kamma. If this citta arises in a plane of existence where there are naama and ruupa it must have a physical base: this is the heart-base, which is produced by kamma. Kamma produces this ruupa from the first moment of life and throughout life. The ruupa which is the heart-base has not been classified as such in the "Dhammasanga.nii", but it is referred to as "this ruupa" in the "Book of Conditional Relations" (Pa.t.thaana), the Seventh Book of the Abhidhamma. In the section on "Dependance Condition" (Part II, Analytical Exposition of Conditions) it is said that dependant on the five sense-bases the five sense-cognitions arise and that dependant on "this matter" mind-element and mind-consciousness-element arise. "This matter" is the ruupa which is the heart-base; the mind-element and mind-consciousness-element comprise all cittas other than the five sense-cognitions. [Note 4] The sense-cognitions of seeing, etc. have the appropriate sense-base as physical base, and all other cittas have the heart-base as physical base. The "Visuddhimagga" (XIV, 60) gives the following definition of the heart-base. [Note 5] "The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the (material) support for the mind-element and for the mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to support them. It is manifested as the carrying of them.... " The "Visuddhimagga" (VIII, 111,112) states that the heart-base is to be found inside the heart. It is of no use to speculate where exactly the heart-base is. It is sufficient to know that there is a ruupa which is base for all cittas other than the sense-cognitions. We may not experience the heart-base as such, but if there would be no heart-base we could not think at this moment, we could not know which objects we are experiencing, we could not feel happy or unhappy. In the planes of existence where there are naama and ruupa all cittas must have a physical base, they cannot arise outside the body. When we, for example, are angry, cittas rooted in aversion arise and these originate at the heart-base. [Note 4] Mind-element are the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness and the two types of receiving-consciousness, which are kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. Mind-consciousness-element are all cittas other than the sense-cognitions and mind-element. [Note 5] The Atthasaalinii does not classify the heart-base separately, but it mentions the "basis-decad", a group of ten ruupas including the heart-base ( Book II, Ch III, 316). As I shall explain later on, from the first moment of our life kamma produces three decads, groups of ten ruupas: the bodysense-decad, the sex-decad and the heart-base-decad. ------------------------------ Chapter 5. Subtle Ruupas produced by Kamma to be continued. with metta, Han #100472 From: "mikenz66" Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 6:52 am Subject: Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta mikenz66 Dear All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > The 3 instances raised by your friend are well-known and oft-mentioned instances of Theravada orthodoxy that are not found expressed in so many words in the suttas. > > The 17 moments of the thought process were not explicated as such until well after the time of the Buddha (I've seen it said as late as the Abhidhammattha Sangaha) This seems to me to be a rather crucial point. I have only studied secondary texts such as the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and modern works, though I've browsed parts of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. It would be very interesting to clarify to what extent this mind-moment analysis is in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and/or the classical commentaries. Mike #100473 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Regarding: Ph: "I was thinking more about this issue. I think it has something to do with saddha, faith...when it comes to certain suttas I can have that faith confirmed to some degree by having the teaching confirmed to some degree...so the teaching must be taken on a blinder kind of faith..." Scott: 17 thought moments: Impermanence is much deeper than noticing cars need oil changes once in awhile. P: "...Now the problem for me (and I am not intending to reignite the endless debate, honestly, I'm just trying to work out something that has been causing me trouble) is that my faith in Abhidhamma can't fully survive having read about historical evidence that it came later. That is a reflections of dhammas at work, including of course some degrees of panna and saddha and doubt and others, mostly akusala..." Scott: I'd leave it at that, Phil. Why push it? P: "...I notice that Lukas wrote to Christine 'there is no doubt'...People who really turn on to the Dhamma are usually well-educated, rational people...To be able to benefit from Abhidhamma there has to be a kind of saddha and virya and wisdom that just plunges ahead and believes...Nina, for example, is surely not bothered by any contrary evidence...That's not there for me now, the doubts interfere..." Scott: That's the way it is now, Phil. You're not Lukas or Nina. You notice it so just leave it. Ph: "I still think it depends on the sutta. Some are to be sorted out easily, particularly the teachings that are not 'particular to the Buddha', the kind of teachings he offered to people whose minds he knew were not ready for the deep teachings. I think many suttas in Anguttara Nikaya, for example, can be understood clearly in the way they were meant to be understood by the Buddha without assistance..." Scott: I remember what the Buddha said to Aananda, who thought he had a lock on D.O. I don't agree that the suttas can be 'sorted out easily.' Later, man. Sincerely, Scott. #100474 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 11:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Regarding: P: "...I *have* been able to accept the Abhidhamma teaching of dhammas performing specific functions...Who knows why? Interesting." Scott: Cool. Sincerely, Scott. #100475 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 2:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Practice of Dhamma in accordance with Dhamma SN 55.5 ashkenn2k Thanks Lukas Your inputs has put some real differences in the text. People of integrity can be different in meaning than wise person. Because wise person here if I am not wrong is refering to the noble ones. People of integrity could be judge, or police or kind person, is not the true representation in relation to Buddha dhamma Appropriate attention is different from wise attention. There is a vast difference, because wise attention means understanding dhamma as dukkha, anatta and anicca. Appropriate attention to what, this leave reader to guess what is appropriate attention, this is not the style of dhamma. These are two impt words which mean the reading of the sutta with different flavour and the real meaning of the practise cheers Ken O #100476 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 3:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] MN 62: Maharahulovada Sutta ashkenn2k Dear Chew The details of this meditation of elements is dealt in great length in Visuddhimagga. Its good you take a look there. it is impt to relate to Abhidhamma, thats where one could find explanation that is not straightforward or too brief in the suttas. Cheers Ken O #100477 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 3:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] MN 62: Maharahulovada Sutta ashkenn2k Dear Sarah I am looking at space again and I read this in the Summary of Topics of Abhidhamma. pg 321 under the context of Concepts << such as wells and caves: wells, caves, holes and so on, are concepts of space>> it hit a chime in me because boundless space could be a concept and concept is "not condition" like Nibbana. By the way space is not empty, there are many invisible rupas that cannot be seen with the eyes like photons (hope I am right in this scientific term) going through our body, billions and billions of them in each second. They are emitted by the sun. Space outside earth is full of dark matter and dark energy, space is not empty. The space as "untouched by the four elements" is the one that separates the cluster from mixing together. This separation is the one that created the "space" Just my interpretation. May not be right. Cheers Ken O #100478 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 3:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (47) ashkenn2k Dear Han Tun just happen to see this under the Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma, pg 222 <<(9) The faculty of life is called "materiality of life" Commentary 9. Life is that by means of which they live; this itself, because of its being suited to predominance in protecting materialiy generated by kamma, is the facutly of life. So it has the characteristic of protecting materiality generated by kamma. It is the protector in that it is simply a cause for the occurence of [the material dhamma] bord along with it, which, like itself, are present for only a moment. ... >> --- I remember you ask this question on the difference nama and citta. This is explained by Narada at pg 9 of Abhidhammatta <> Cheers Ken #100479 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 5:13 pm Subject: Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mikenz66" wrote: > > Dear All, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > The 3 instances raised by your friend are well-known and oft-mentioned instances of Theravada orthodoxy that are not found expressed in so many words in the suttas. > > > > The 17 moments of the thought process were not explicated as such until well after the time of the Buddha (I've seen it said as late as the Abhidhammattha Sangaha) > > This seems to me to be a rather crucial point. I have only studied secondary texts such as the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and modern works, though I've browsed parts of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. It would be very interesting to clarify to what extent this mind-moment analysis is in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and/or the classical commentaries. > > Mike > Hi Mike, These things can be checked using pali search programs. For example what one has to do is to do a e-search of all occurances of a particular word and see where it is mentioned. example: viithicitta "process of cognition" In the Chattha Sangayaha Tipitaka 4.0 found at http://www.tipitaka.org/cst4 search for vīthicitt* & vīth* citt* (long I) The process of cognition words are NEVER FOUND in Tipitaka. It is not found in Vinaya, Suttas or Abhidhamma. It is found in dozens commenterial books such as VsM, Tikas, Mulatikas and Abhidhamma-Sangaha. With metta, Alex #100480 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 6:50 pm Subject: Satipatthana: 32 Body parts & Corpse contemplations truth_aerator Hello Nina and all, How does one sets the conditions for Satipatthana to occur? How does the satipatthana of 32 body parts gets developed? Is 32 bodyparts contemplation dealing with ultimates or conceptual truth? "[4] "Furthermore...just as if a sack with openings at both ends were full of various kinds of grain - wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, husked rice - and a man with good eyesight, pouring it out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. This is rice. These are mung beans. These are kidney beans. These are sesame seeds. This is husked rice,' in the same way, monks, a monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html How does the satipatthana of corpse contemplation gets developed? Is corpse contemplation dealing with ultimate or conceptual truth? "[6] "Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground - one day, two days, three days dead - bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'... "Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, picked at by crows, vultures, & hawks, by dogs, hyenas, & various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh & blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions - here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a breast bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder: He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.' "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html With metta, Alex #100481 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 8:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (47) hantun1 Dear Ken, > Ken: just happen to see this under the Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma, pg 222 <<(9) The faculty of life is called "materiality of life" Commentary 9. Life is that by means of which they live; this itself, because of its being suited to predominance in protecting materialiy generated by kamma, is the facutly of life. So it has the characteristic of protecting materiality generated by kamma. It is the protector in that it is simply a cause for the occurence of [the material dhamma] bord along with it, which, like itself, are present for only a moment. ... >> I remember you ask this question on the difference nama and citta. This is explained by Narada at pg 9 of Abhidhammatta <> ------------------------------ Han: Thank you very much, Ken, for your explanation. I really appreciate it. Respectfully, Han #100482 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 9:11 pm Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ----------- <. . .> KH: > >They just need to be told there are realities; some mental, others physical. That's not so hard. > > S: > I don't see that repeating "there are realities, some mental, some physical" as being theoretical understanding, pariyatti. A parrot can repeat this, but that doesn't mean there's any panna at all. ----------- That's true, and it was silly of me to have given the opposite impression. There is nothing surer than that the Dhamma is difficult to grasp. Try telling someone, for example, that it is not about "doing" . . . Even so, if people would just listen, the words "there are realities; some mental, others physical" would be a good start. ------------------------ S: > We mentioned Davadatta and I don't know whether he had had any pariyatti panna at all in his last life or not. What I am sure about was that it wasn't of the degree of sacca ~naana or firm theoretical/intellectual understanding, otherwise he would not have gone so wrong. ------------------------- I remember years ago we briefly discussed how the mere 'memory of words' will be lost when we die. But I've forgotten already: :-) how long can sacca ~naana last? Is it only in the current lifetime that it pervents us from going horribly wrong? Do we need direct (satipatthana) understanding if we are to have a similar protection in future lifetimes? ------------------------------- S: > The seeds were definitely planted to act as condition for panna of all degrees to develop later, however. ------------------------------- I wonder how we are to understand the story of Devadatta. Could we say that: at some time (perhaps aeons in the past) he performed great kusala kamma, as a result of which he saw and heard the Buddha: and, even though didn't react well to that kusala-vipaka at the time, he will, aeons in the future, react well to it? Or was it that, at the time of the vipaka, he did react *just well enough* in order to set the conditions for future greatness? Or doesn't it matter? :-) Ken H #100483 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 10:20 pm Subject: Binara Poya Day! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Binara Poya day is the full-moon of September. This holy day celebrates the inauguration of the Bhikkhuni Sangha by the ordination on this very day of Queen Mahapajapati, the Buddha's foster-mother & her retinue. For life details on this excellent woman, who awakened as Arahat Theri: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/maha/mahapajapati_gotami.htm More on Binara Poya and the initiation of the Bhikkhuni Order: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Binara_Poya_Bhikkhuni.htm On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accepts to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! So is the start towards Nibbana: The Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps even the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town & country to me or join here . A public list of this new quite rapidly growing new global Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here ! This New Noble Community of The Buddha's Disciples: The Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift and sweet. Never give up!! Bhikkhu Samahita For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Have a nice poya day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #100484 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 3, 2009 11:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) sarahprocter... Dear pt, --- On Wed, 26/8/09, ptaus1 wrote: >Thanks for your comments. I'll split the reply in two parts so it's not too long and on different topics. ... S: Yes, that's helpful. Nina gave a reply, but I'll add my own. ... >> S: Some people experience what? What is taken for energy in the body, can only be tangible object and thinking about it. The feelings are all mental. > .... >pt: I agree, and this then becomes the main issue of how to approach the discussion. I mean, when examined from vipassana angle, the "energy" is exactly as you say above â€" tangibles, feeling cetasika and thoughts, and that's it. But then there's nothing much left to discuss. I mean, it seems the only way to get deeper into this topic is to get more into the conventional terms and talk about different kinds of "winds" as Sariputta was quoted saying, but then of course we run the risk of going into ayurveda, medicine, etc, and I don't think these would be interesting to people here. ... S: I think that by so doing, we run the risk of getting lost in concepts, rather than understanding the realities appearing. As you suggest, there may not then be much left to discuss (from a Dhamma point of view), but I think it's always helpful to be reminded about what can be directly known, what the path is. ... >Anyway, I'm not sure how to strike a proper balance between conventional and vipassana angles, so here's a sample question (please point out if there are aspects not appropriate for dsg discussion in the future): ... [S: It's all very appropriate for DSG - thx for all you consideration, all the same. As for any 'balance' - it's more a question of developing understanding, no matter the topic/situation/world we live in...] >Conventional description: Whenever anger arises, in the next split second I notice motion/pressure arising in the stomach area, and then a split second after that, there's a sort of a knotting up in the stomach â€" muscles tensing up, and then a split second after that bodily gesticulation and words might start happening. The same thing is noticeable with all kinds of aversion, though with anger and fear it is most obvious as they are the strongest. >So my question would be how to classify this in abhidhamma terms: 1. The motion/pressure is the wind element experienced through body consciousness. But how is it produced? I assume it would be cittaja rupas, but I'm not sure which one of the 6 kinds mentioned by A.Sujin. It seems to happen every time anger arises, regardless of whether it is then followed by bodily expressions and gestures or not. Or perhaps this production of extra wind is already a bodily expression? .... S: There is a lot of thinking involved in what you describe. When there is awareness of motion/pressure or one of the other tangible objects, there's no thought of place. Just the reality appears. Afterwards it may be identified and ideas about the stomach etc are there. Different cittas, different kamma, (nutriment, temperature) which produce various rupas. Yes, we know cittas, such as with anger, produce rupas, but I'm not sure we can pinpoint and say the rupas you refer to above are just conditioned by cittas. On the last point, do you mean the kaya-vinnatti (bodily intimation)? This is an asabhava rupa which doesn't appear. There's no intention to convey a meaning in the above. .... >2. The knotting up in the stomach â€" muscle tension â€" that's earth element experienced through the body consciousness. But, the questions are the same as above â€" how is it produced, what kind of cittaja rupa it is (if it really is cittaja rupa at all) and does it count as bodily expression or not? ... S: We don't need to pinpoint the cause of any given rupas in order to undersand the reality which appears. I think we lose track of the goal if we try to. As for the knotting up in the stomach, different rupas appearing at different moments. In between, many mind-door processes and other rupas such as visible object appearing as well. Definitely not a bodily expression, but conditioned by akusala cittas and other causes as I mentioned. "Muscle tension" is a term for many different realities. .... >3. Why does it happen most strongly in the stomach area? ... S: Depending on conditions, past kamma and so on. We never know about the next moment or where such rupas will arise. ... >Granted, when there's anger for example, the whole body might be shaking and winds are coursing all over the body, but still the strongest occurrence is in the stomach area. Would there be a name for this particular kind of a wind? Etc â€" I think questions from hereon lead even further into ayurveda and medicine, so I'll stop here. ... S: Yes, this is thinking, rather than understanding the dhammas appearing. For you it may be the stomach area, for someone else the throat or another place. However, just one reality, one nama or rupa appears at a time. I don't see any conflict with ayurveda etc, but the goal is different. As you said, the Buddha had one of the foremost ayurveda practitioners attending him, but Jivaka had confidence in the Dhamma, no illusion about body parts as existing in an ultimate sense. Please continue with the thread if inclined. Again, apologies for slow replies. We'll be travelling back to Hong Kong tomorrow. Metta Sarah ======== #100485 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 4, 2009 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) sarahprocter... Dear pt & all, --- On Wed, 26/8/09, ptaus1 wrote: >part 2 >> S: As we read about in the suttas, what we tend to dwell on, so we incline towards. In other words, if you dwell on the 'energy channels', for example, so it will seem that they appear all the time. What is samatha practice? It can only ever be the development of kusala calm. >pt: Samatha seems a bit different to me so far, though maybe I'm misunderstanding your terminology (or simply engaging in wrong practice) - if we take "samatha meditation" in the strict sense of jhana development, and we take the case of someone who has not yet entered jhana, then what is actually getting developed (I'd say) is not calm, but understanding - basically, knowing the difference between what's kusala and what's akusala, while calm is a by-product of understanding (or rather a cetasika that accompanies a kusala citta). .... S: Yes, there has to be right understanding for the development of samatha bhavana and the understanding of what is kusala and what is akusala. Samatha means calm and my point was that if it's not kusala calm, but some other 'fake calm', such as feeling relaxed with lobha in a tranquil setting, then it's not samatha practice. Focussing on 'energy channels' is not samatha bhavana. At any moment of kusala now, such as at a moment of dana or metta, the citta is calm. So all kusala is accompanied by samatha. As you point out, it is understanding which will know only. ... >> S: At moments of dana, sila or bhavana, there is samatha. At moments of focussing on the meridiens, what kind of kusala is there? What is wholesome about the reflection? 'Something' goes wrong whenever akusala cittas arise. When akusala is taken for kusala and followed as being a kusala practice, this is most dangerous, I think. >pt: I'm not sure what exactly you're asking here â€" I'll try to cover the possibilities that I see, depending on whether the concept of an "energy channel" is the selected object of samatha meditation or not: ... [S: butting in, do you see "energy channel" as included in any of the given objects of samatha? How would it condition calm, as opposed to concentration with lobha?] >1. if not, like in my case (so the meditation object is the concept of kasina, or breath, etc), then attention skipping from the selected object to a channel-concept would not necessarily be akusala just because the attention has skipped to a different object - in my understanding attention cannot be forced to stay on one object or the other because it is anatta. ... S: Yes, all dhammas are anatta, so it'll just depend on conditions what is the object at any given moment. What is the purpose of specially attending to kasina, breath or channel-concept in the above case? ... >However, if in response to the skipping of attention to a channel-concept there arises aversion to this new object, or trying to hold onto it (greed), then that is akusala. If, however, there's understanding that attention has skipped, but understanding knows that the object now is a different concept (so no holding onto it or pushing away), then that's kusala (the attention then automatically returns to the original object, or skips again, with or without understanding, and so on). .... S: I think that there are conditions to attend to what we like to attend to - whether it be the channel-concept, what we see on the TV or anything else. Now all that's very natural, lobha is very natural and to be known. However, if we think that such attending is kusala, it's a condition for more delusion. As you suggest, the thinking (or attending) can be known for what it is. The lobha can also be known and so too, the delusion if it arises. It can all be quite subtle. .... >2. if a channel-concept is the object of samatha meditation, then focusing on it becomes akusala if there's trying to force the attention to hold onto it (greed) or getting bored by it (aversion). ... S: Why would there be any focussing on it if not for lobha? .... >Otherwise it will be kusala â€" because there's understanding present (it knows that there's no akusla at the moment and that what's focused on is a concept). In fact, the above applies to whatever object of meditation is selected. ... S: What you're suggesting, I think, is that if there's no obvious greed or aversion present when focussing on any object, then the citta must be kusala. I would see it more the other way round - if there's not any dana, sila or bhavana, then it's akusala. Lobha and moha can so very easily be taken for kusala. What is the purpose of selecting and focussing on an object of meditation if not a desire for a result, such as calm or concentration? Let's continue this, pt. Trust me, most people here will agree with what you write and be encouraging you to say more! Perhaps they'll join in too. Metta Sarah ========= >Hope this answers your questions. #100486 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 4, 2009 3:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sarahprocter... Hi Sukin (& Ken H), #100348 --- On Thu, 27/8/09, sukinderpal wrote: >Suk: I was thinking in terms of someone who saw the Buddha more or less, as one of many religious teachers, and who were not ready to hear about anatta but would have appreciated hearing about dana and sila. After reading your last post, I now think that the Buddha would end up teaching not what the listener wanted to hear, but with their accumulations and long term development in mind, aimed at finally coming to understand the 4NTs. And this is why I said that I now lean towards Ken's position more. ... Sarah: Yes, I think this is right. Some came to argue with the Buddha too, but still he taught what he knew would be appropriate for their long term development, even if they didn't 'get it' at the time. We know there are accounts of monks and others like this who in later lives became arahats, having had the seeds sown. And then there are all the accounts of the Theriis which Connie posted - seeds sown under previous Buddhas, insight and enlightenment under this Buddha. And as you said: "..the Buddha knew exactly the right thing to say taking into account the listener's accumulations, such that his words acted as natural decisive support condition for kusala of different levels to arise.....with the 'goal' in mind." Metta Sarah ======= #100487 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 4, 2009 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sarahprocter... Hi Sukin (& Ken H), I think Bahiya was a good example of someone who had not 'got it' under a previous Buddha, but for whom the seeds were soon and also, you wrote: --- On Thu, 27/8/09, sukinderpal wrote: >Suk: Actually it wouldn't be that the Buddha *waited* for a proper time. This is just an idea I superimpose onto the reality / situation. As you say, there is only the present moment. The difference is that the Buddha knowing the accumulations would have taught just what was right at the time. ... Sarah: I'm not sure what the difference is and whether this would not be an example of *waiting* for "a proper time", yes, knowing the accumulations and what was appropriate. From an earlier post I wrote(#24977) >We read in th Bahiya sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html that Bahiya became fully enlightened (an arahant) after hearing a few sentences from the Buddha on the nature of realities. His wisdom was such that it penetrated the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta and we may think that this is a relatively simple matter. In the commentary to this sutta (Ud-a), we read in fact about how Bahiya had first heard the Dhamma a hundred thousand kalpas in the past under the Buddha, Padumuttara and in that life had performed great meritorious deeds. He had 'gone forth' under Buddha Kassapa and had lives in deva realms with 'morality completely fulfilled'. In fact he had spent one entire Buddha sasana in the devaloka. Even so, in the present life, when he became highly respected by people after he was shipwrecked and wandered around with only garments made from bark, he mistakenly assumed he was an arahant because he was treated as one. In fact he had not achieved any level of attainment at all and was completely misguided, deceiving those who supported him and paid him respect. It took a visit by Great Brahma, a former deva companion and an anagami (non-returner) who took pity on him, to shock him to his senses. Great Brahma tells him: "You now, though being no arahant, roam about wearing the guise of a religious in the belief that you are an arahant. You Bahiya are certainly no arahant. Renounce this evil resorting to views." Hence, we see how even for those who have heard the Dhamma from Buddhas, have had kalpas of rebirths as devas with wise companions, and have attained all jhanas, they can still succomb badly to wrong views about self if they haven’t reached the first stage of enlightenment. We read in the Ud-a about how the conceit of arahantship arose in him because of being used to 'wanting little, contentment and effacement' for a long time and misjudging these states or because of having attained jhanas and therefore not experiencing defilements ‘as a result of abandoning in the form of suppression’. In other words, wrong views about attainments as a result of not experiencing defilements for a long time can be very dangerous. Urged by Great Brahma, he went to see the Buddha. As we read in the sutta, it was only on a third occasion that the Buddha agreed to teach him the Dhamma. In the Ud-a, we read that he was rejected twice because the Buddha knew "the thrill of that joy is too powerful - even if he hears Dhamma he will not, as yet, be able to pierce it. So let him wait until balance and equanimity reasert themselves." In order for Bahiya to be able to hear and fully comprehend the teachings from the Buddha, so many different conditions had to be in place, including the final meeting and listening to the Buddha himself. The Buddha fully comprehended these conditions and knew the time was ripe for Bahiya and so entered Savatthi in order that Bahiya would find him.< ***** Metta Sarah ======== #100488 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 4, 2009 3:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Howard, #100363 --- On Thu, 27/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: Would you describe right understanding, accompanied by the other path factors (excluding the 3 viratis of right speech, action and liveliood for now) as being "practice" and "action"? ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- H:>No, while a degree of right understanding is essential to do anything worthwhile, I'd be more inclined to describe it largely as a *consequence* of practice, including right resolve ("And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill-will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve." â€" _SN 45.8_ ... S: This is the main area where we differ. I see the path as being the practice. At moments of satipatthana, there is the practice, the arising of the path factors leading to the Noble Eightfold Path. ... >>S: Let's assume we're both talking about tanha or lobha, attachment, here (and not wholesome chanda, for example). Yes, tanha is nearly always present in one guise or other. Didn't the Buddha say that it was the cause of Dukkha? Isn't it the mate that prevents us from attaining seclusion as Han always reminds us? ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- >Yes. Nonetheless, akusala can lead to kusala, and it is our *aversion* to suffering that is the main impetus to practice. That is reality, Sarah. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- S: I disagree with this "reality", Howard! Most people have aversion to suffering, but no insight at all. I would say it is the understanding of suffering and it's cause which leads to "practice" or bhavana. ... ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- >Actually, we DO often actively perversely pursue ignorance and craving. ... S: Yes, and this is why the Buddha taught about the perversions, the vipallasas. The path is the seeing the perversions for what they are so that gradually they are eradicated, beginning with the perversions of seeing permanence in impermanence and self in not-self. ... >...The irony is that seeing things as they actually are, not as we want them to be, is the way to end our suffering!>> ... S: Yes. ... >Yet craving is also the beginning of the way out, for without the strong aversion to the pain of craving, we remain complacently enslaved. In the Upanisa Sutta we see that craving leads to suffering, which in turn serves as a support for confidence and eventual freedom from suffering. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - S: Everyone has aversion to the "pain of craving", or the results of craving. It is the understanding, in spite of the craving and aversion and the seeing of realities, including these, for what they are that leads to freedom. ... ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- >I have no reason to think it was anything other than plain out disgust and aversion to suffering and the misery of samsara. In any case, ordinary people rarely do what is needed for them to do to extricate themselves from harmful circumstances until they reach a nadir, a point of misery so low that it overcomes their lethargy and the excuses they come up with to persuade themselves that "Things are really okay." Just look at addicts. (And each of us in our own way is an addict!) ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - S: Yes, we're all addicts, addicted to lobha and pleasant feelings. Again, I think there is plenty of disgust and aversion to suffering and misery around, especially that which concerns oneself. It didn't need a Buddha to teach disgust and aversion, but it did take a Buddha to realise the 4 Noble Truths and the way of right understanding with detachment, equanimity and non-aversion,loving-kindness, not attachment and aversion. Metta Sarah ======= #100489 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 4, 2009 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta according to VsM requires seclusion sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, On metta - --- On Fri, 28/8/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >A:Few things: It may be easier for a unconcentrated beginner to develop metta in seclusion because you aren't surrounded by angry people (such as a boss or coworker). > ... > >S: Aren't these just the kinds of occasions that the Buddha >encouraged us to develop metta? It's easy to be friendly and loving >when everyone's being nice to us, but isn't the test, the challenge, ... A:>This is my belief: You practice metta on the easiest type of people and in as good circumstances as possible, and THEN increase the difficulty by trying it on neutral people and eventually on people you don't like. It is like lifting weights. You lift light at first and then as you get stronger you lift heavier ones. ... S: Metta may be more likely towards certain people and in certain circumstances, but the time is always now. So now we have the opportunity to develop friendliness and kindness to those with whom we're associating. Thinking about other kinds of people in other circumstances is just wishful thinking and an excuse not to develop metta now whilst we're writing to or speaking to people around us. ... >Same about metta in retreat and in daily life. First you practice developing metta in as ideal as possible circumstances, and then as you gain some skill you need to challenge yourself more. ... S: Just be friendly and kind now! No need to think about retreats! Now is the perfect opportunity to be "on retreat", to leave aside the dusty akusala path! ... >We are talking about powerful metta. Metta after Jhana is one thing, metta with a hindrance filled mind is another. ... S: If we don't begin to develop metta now in daily life, it will never develop and become powerful. Metta Sarah ====== #100490 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 4, 2009 4:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- On Sun, 30/8/09, kenhowardau wrote: >...I say let's not forget that, right now, there are only dhammas. Who cares whether our gradually accumulated understanding of that fact is a deep or shallow one? It is only a dhamma after all! :-) ... S: :-) Yes, no caring or minding about it when panna arises. Metta Sarah p.s the 3 flights back to HK tomorrow, so close to signing off until settled back there... ========== #100491 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 4, 2009 4:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Hi Chris & all, --- On Mon, 31/8/09, christine_forsyth wrote: >"1. This does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka... The process of the 17 thought moments in a complete perception is as follow: ... S: Maybe direct your friend to ots in U.P. under 'Abhidhamma-its origins', 'Sutta vs Abhidhamma' etc. The Patisambhidamagga also has quite a lot of detail on different cittas as quoted before... Metta Sarah ====== #100492 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 4, 2009 3:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fire Sermon and understanding this present moment sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, #100360 A very fine message and quote. I appreciate all your sharing of Dhamma! Many thanks. Metta Sarah --- On Thu, 27/8/09, szmicio wrote: >It looks like we have to do some particular things in order to get understanding and become Arahat. But in reality the only thing to get understanding is just understand. No particular techniqe. There is this present moment. The world of eye, the world of visible object, the world of seeing, the world of eye contact... Just understand.. .and forget everything. We are still "saavaka", those who listen. We are not the doers, kaaraka, vedaka, we are saavaka, and our only way is to hear the Dhamma, we dont know what will be next. Understanding or not. We are just hearers. One account of hearing the Dhamma there can be understanding. 1000 Arahats was so beneficial to hear the Dhamma and become Arahats. ------------ --------- SN 35.28 PTS: S iv 19 CDB ii 1143 Adittapariyaya Sutta: The Fire Sermon <...> #100493 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 4, 2009 4:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Element of space 7 of Y.Karunadasa sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Mon, 31/8/09, szmicio wrote: > >(Karunadasa).....For this is another way of saying that it is neither rupa (matter) nor a dhamma (element of existence) in the true sense of the terms. > ... >> S: This doesn't sound correct. It is anipphanna rupa (non-concrete rupa) as are several other asabhava rupas. They are still classified as rupas. >L: Which of the ruupas are asabhava ones? .. S: The same as the anipphanna (non-concrete) rupas given below: ... >So the lakkhana or sabhava of each dhamma is their characteristic that can be known by pa~n~na, but also asabhava ruupas can be known. What is a difference between sabhava and asabhava dhammas. ... S: The sabhava dhammas have characteristics which can be known directly. For the asabhava dhammas, this is not true. They can be known, but by whom? The sabhava dhammas have to be known first. ... "[The other anipphanna rupas are: bodily intimation, speech intimation, lightness, plasticity and wieldiness and the four rupas which are characteristics of rupa- birth, continuity, decay and impermanence. ]" S: So the asabhava dhamas are these plus akasa rupa. ... >L: Can you explain the ruupa of birth, continuity, decay and impermanence? ... S: These are the modalities or instances of each conditioned rupa. Each of these rupas arises, exists momentarily and falls away. At the third stage of insight such arising and falling away of rupas is known, but clearly, the sabhava dhamma, such as visible object, has to be known before its arising and falling away can be known. The same applies to pariccheda akasa rupa and the other asabhava dhammas - i.e. the sabhava dhammas have to be known which the asabhava dhammas depend on for their arising. Not sure if that's clear... am rushing now... Nibbana is a sabhava dhamma by the say... Metta Sarah ======= #100494 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Sep 4, 2009 1:10 pm Subject: Re: Element of space 7 of Y.Karunadasa szmicio Dear Sarah and friends Thx for answer. I miss our old discussions on realities now. I miss your constant reminders on Non-Self, at this moment. Partly now I am involved in speculations about terms and start to forget the essence. Can you remind me about realities? This is the most beneficial to me. > S: The sabhava dhammas have characteristics which can be known directly. For the asabhava dhammas, this is not true. They can be known, but by whom? The sabhava dhammas have to be known first. > ... L: This is important that asabhava ruupa can also be known. sabhava - with characteristic. And this characteristic is stressed so often by Acharn Sujin. It can be known. Can you say more on asabhava paramattha dhamma that is an object to pa~n~na? Do you see any difference between lakkhana and sabhava? Best wishes Lukas #100495 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Fri Sep 4, 2009 4:38 pm Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. sukinderpal Hi Ken, I just learnt how to download MP3s and so have been spending all my time this past week downloading altogether more than 600 songs from the internet. I discovered, `thinking' of course, that all of them caused as much pleasant feelings as they did at the time, even those that I'm hearing for the first time in over 30 years. I'm sure its not just sound and the concept `music', but memories associated with other experiences as well, in other words layers and layers of concepts involved. No wonder samsara never comes to an end and the way out involves development over time spanning many, many aeons. But let me not bore you with my proliferations. ;-) ========== > KH: > > But, given that there is only the present moment, how are we to > > understand waiting? We are to understand it in terms of satipatthana, > > aren't we? > > Suk: Actually it wouldn't be that the Buddha *waited* for a proper time. > This is just an idea I superimpose onto the reality / situation. As you say, > there is only the present moment. The difference is that the Buddha knowing the > accumulations would have taught just what was right at the time. However > this `right' didn't mean that citta rooted in panna arising immediately was > expected, I would think…? > -------------------------- > > OK thanks; that's good enough for me. > > These people (who were not ready to be taught satipatthana) must have > had some idea of who was teaching them, mustn't they? I wonder if they > knew that the Buddha was the Teacher of the Middle Way? I suspect they > did. In which case they might have come to him saying "We are not ready > to see how there can be a middle way between eternity and annihilation > but, even so, please teach something that will be helpful to us." S: Prior to this discussion I was convinced based on simple laws of probability, that all sorts of people would have gotten a chance to approach the Buddha. There were of course also those with wrong views who remained unconverted after listening to him, and conditions being so very complex, there'd be people approaching the Buddha for the simple reason that he did make references to kusala of other kinds beside satipatthana. So `implied' may be for those who had the accumulations to understand, but for those who did not, to hear about other forms of kusala without any reference to their being `conditioned' realities, was probably all that they had in mind and could grasp. With your overpowering influence however, ;-) now I factor in kamma, the kind which caused people of the Buddha's time to come to hear him, that this must be due to having heard the Dhamma in previous lives if not also meeting previous Buddha's. As a result I'm leaning closer to your position now. ;-) ========== Ken: > Therefore, when he taught them dana sila and samatha (without > satipatthana) they at least knew that those things were *consistent* > with the main (unique) teaching of the Buddha. > > In that manner of speaking, they too were understanding 'every word of > the Buddha's teaching in terms of satipatthana' weren't they? > > Just say yes if it will shut me up. :-) S: Not yet, i.e. not with the level of confidence that you have. In the above, it seems that you are referring to those who have heard the Dhamma and needed to hear more, else how could they conceive of the `middle way'. But I was thinking only about those who have absolutely no idea. ======= > <. . .> > S: > I would say now, that he taught dana, sila and samatha > *with* satipatthana in mind, but not with the expectation that such > understanding arise immediately. The paramis have to be developed, which > I believe comes from accumulated kusala. So at any point in time, we can't > know what is needed….? > ------------------------ Ken: > No, but at least we can know that dana, sila and samatha are potentially > helpful for reaching the middle way (the only way out of suffering). So > that is some level of satipatthana that can arise in anyone who has been > taught anything by a Buddha. S: And now I'd say that even those who hadn't heard the Buddha teach yet, they'd also be encouraged to develop Dhammas ultimately leading to the satipatthana, but perhaps, not in that particular lifetime? ============ Ken: > Oh, I just remembered the teeth cleaning example - definitely not about > nama and rupa. But I suppose the same principle applies to it. S: So you are not arguing against the idea that the Buddha also gave practical advice regarding conventional activities such as tooth cleaning. Frankly, the idea that the Buddha wouldn't waste his breath teaching something other than satipatthana is one that I like too. But perhaps we should think in terms of different cittas with different objects, one with panna, either of pariyatti or patipatti level, and the other not?……… I get a feeling that you are not going to agree and point out some mistake in thinking on my part…… Metta, Sukin #100496 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 4, 2009 12:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ten or Eleven? sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Han), --- On Wed, 26/8/09, scottduncan2 wrote: >"...The bhikkhus told Aananda, 'Friend, the meeting is tomorrow, but you are still only an Initiate with [a task] still to be done. It is not well for you to go to the meeting thus. Be diligent.' Then the venerable Aananda [thought] 'The meeting is tomorrow. It is not seemly for me to go to the meeting as an Initiate'. He spent much of the night in contemplation of the body. When the night was near dawn, he came down from the walk and entered his dwelling, [thinking] 'I shall lie down'. He adverted to the body. {As he did so,] his two feet left the ground but his head had not yet reached the pillow. In that interval his cognizance was liberated from the taints through not clinging..." ***** >Scott: I like the story. It's hard to imagine myself into the situation. I can think that Aananda seemed to be feeling some sort of pressure to perform, and seemed to be getting pressured by the Arahats. I don't know, though. ... Sarah: Only kusala pressure, of course! ... >They said, 'sve, aavuso aananda, sa"nghasannipaato, tva~nca sekho sakara.niiyo, tena te na yutta.m sannipaata.m gantu.m, appamatto hohii.' 'Appamaada' is 'thoughtfulness, carefulness, con- scientiousness, watchfulness, vigilance, earnestness, zeal...' Is it fair to imagine that Aananda was 'in contemplation of the body' ('kaayagataaya satiyaa') as an attempt to cause the arising of the Path - in response to the pressure? ... Sarah: Anatta. In Ananda's case, no wrong view, so just by conditions and accumulations what dhammas appeared. No Ananda to do anything. ... >Was it his habit to spend his nights in contemplation of the body anyway? One can imagine him to have sort of 'stopped trying' and gone wearily off to bed, only to have the Path arise in that brief interval between all postures, having 'adverted' to 'the body' as object. >Is it fair to suggest that Aananda tried to force the unforceable, fruitlessly exerting 'energy' and wanting to catch up with the other 499 Arahats ... Sarah: Impossible for a sotapanna to try and "force the unforceable." Right effort arises with right understanding and detachment. However, there was not enough understanding to completely detach from all kilesa, all subtle craving until then. ... >("No pressure, dude, just make sure you're enlightened before you come to recite the Dhamma in the morning. 'Night")? It became clear to him that 'his' energy was 'overexerted' and there was 'agitation' ('tena me citta.m uddhaccaaya sa.mvattati' ). The Path arose only when conditions were suitable, and in the absence of agitation and trying. It was a natural arising, balanced because balance is the nature of such a moment of consciousness, in my opinion. ... Sarah: :-) and yes, balance as the nature of right understanding. Overexerted and agitated, but this couldn't have been the sense of 'trying' of a Self trying to be aware. An interesting example of how the text has to be read in the light of all the teachings - like the 4 right efforts have to be read in the light of all dhammas being anatta. Pls add any further ideas either of you have. Metta Sarah ======== #100497 From: "christine_forsyth" Date: Fri Sep 4, 2009 9:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Chris & all, > > --- On Mon, 31/8/09, christine_forsyth wrote: > >"1. This does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka... > > The process of the 17 thought moments in a complete perception is as follow: > > ... > S: Maybe direct your friend to ots in U.P. under 'Abhidhamma-its origins', 'Sutta vs Abhidhamma' etc. > The Patisambhidamagga also has quite a lot of detail on different cittas as quoted before... > > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > Thanks Sarah but I don't think they'd join a strange list just to plough through untold posts in very numerous threads in an attempt to glean something that no-one in this thread so far has been able to show - that the Abhidhamma was mentioned in the Suttas by the Buddha and was not simply a later teaching after his passing. Surprisingly - after all these years of thinking it was, and having visited Sankasia in India, I am now leaning towards the fact that the Abhidhamma was a later teaching by disciples generations after the Buddha -and that there seems to be no real evidence to the contrary. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---Life is only as long as an outbreath .. if you don't breathe in again--- #100498 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Sep 4, 2009 9:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Thanks Sarah but I don't think they'd join a strange list just to plough through untold posts in very numerous threads in an attempt to glean something that no-one in this thread so far has been able to show - that the Abhidhamma was mentioned in the Suttas by the Buddha and was not simply a later teaching after his passing. > > Surprisingly - after all these years of thinking it was, and having visited Sankasia in India, I am now leaning towards the fact that the Abhidhamma was a later teaching by disciples generations after the Buddha -and that there seems to be no real evidence to the contrary. > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > ---Life is only as long as an outbreath .. if you don't breathe in again--- > Hello Chris, The story about Buddha visiting the tusita (or tavatimsa?) heaven to teach Abhidhamma in one sitting by using his mental body and going on alms round on Earth to feed himself, etc etc is NOT mentioned anywhere in 4 Nikayas. The story about His body shining when he was contemplating Patthana IS COMMENTERIAL. In DN16 the Buddha has said that on 2 occasions His body was radiant. One the night of His Awakening and 2nd on the night of His Parinibbana. He also said that Suttas & Vinaya as authority. He did not say sutta, vinaya and abhidhamma. If one should believe that Abhidhamma is higher teaching, while suttas are only conventional and mystify the origins of Abhidhamma, then why not believe in Mahayana as well? Mahayana uses the same "even though your suttas are authoritative, mahayana sutras are deeper and higher teaching." 49. ""It is so, Ananda. There are two occasions, Ananda, when the skin of the Tathagata appears exceedingly clear and radiant. Which are these two? The night, Ananda, when the Tathagata becomes fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment, and the night when the Tathagata comes to his final passing away into the state of Nibbana in which no element of clinging remains. These, Ananda, are the two occasions on which the skin of the Tathagata appears exceedingly clear and radiant." 8-11 "If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu - or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu - or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html I take above to be a sutta's refutation of Patthana myth. In other words DN16 states that later commentaries (or their parts) that teach what was not said in suttas & vinayas as NOT BEING BUDDHA'S TEACHING. No matter if what was said by a mahathera or groups of mahathera's. Period. With metta, Alex #100499 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Sep 5, 2009 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta scottduncan2 Dear Chris (and Sarah), Regarding: C: "Thanks Sarah but I don't think they'd join a strange list just to plough through untold posts...Surprisingly - after all these years of thinking it was, and having visited Sankasia in India, I am now leaning towards the fact that the Abhidhamma was a later teaching by disciples generations after the Buddha -and that there seems to be no real evidence to the contrary." Scott: I agree. There is no point in trying to force anyone. I think the list is not necessarily strange, but the way of things is moving more and more away from the Abhidhamma for more and more people. You directed me here a few years ago and I'm very happy you did. Why fight the direction you are leaning? You swim in some very strong currents... Sincerely, Scott. #100500 From: "christine_forsyth" Date: Sat Sep 5, 2009 8:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Chris (and Sarah), > > Regarding: > > C: "Thanks Sarah but I don't think they'd join a strange list just to plough through untold posts...Surprisingly - after all these years of thinking it was, and having visited Sankasia in India, I am now leaning towards the fact that the Abhidhamma was a later teaching by disciples generations after the Buddha -and that there seems to be no real evidence to the contrary." > > Scott: I agree. There is no point in trying to force anyone. I think the list is not necessarily strange, but the way of things is moving more and more away from the Abhidhamma for more and more people. You directed me here a few years ago and I'm very happy you did. > > Why fight the direction you are leaning? You swim in some very strong currents... > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Hello Scott, Thank you for your response. Yes, I remember - I thought dsg would be just right for you, and I'm glad I was correct - dsg members are well-versed in the Dhamma. When I said "strange" list, it was a poor choice of words, I meant "new", "unknown", "not previously read". I was at Dhammagiri Forest Monastery today and spoke with Ven. Dhammasiha. His advice was not to get into arguments, not to feel I had to justify my stance, or call on others to justify theirs - just to be in this moment, fully aware. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---Life is only as long as an outbreath .. if you don't breathe in again--- #100501 From: "christine_forsyth" Date: Sat Sep 5, 2009 8:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: ................. > > If one should believe that Abhidhamma is higher teaching, while suttas are only conventional and mystify the origins of Abhidhamma, > > then why not believe in Mahayana as well? Mahayana uses the same "even though your suttas are authoritative, mahayana sutras are deeper and higher teaching." ..................... > > 8-11 "If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu - or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu - or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.'" > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html > > I take above to be a sutta's refutation of Patthana myth. > > In other words DN16 states that later commentaries (or their parts) that teach what was not said in suttas & vinayas as NOT BEING BUDDHA'S TEACHING. No matter if what was said by a mahathera or groups of mahathera's. > > Period. > > > With metta, > > Alex > Hello Alex, Thank you for your post above ... I've not heard it stated quite like that before ~ worth considering. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---Life is only as long as an outbreath .. if you don't breathe in again--- #100502 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Sep 5, 2009 9:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta ptaus1 Hi Chris, > C: I am now leaning towards the fact that the Abhidhamma was a later teaching by disciples generations after the Buddha -and that there seems to be no real evidence to the contrary. > pt: I've been participating in that discussion on Dhamma wheel for a few days now, so I've been checking out the Useful posts section: Abhidhamma7 - its origins, also see 'Kathavatthu', 'Dhamma-vinaya', 'Buddha-vacana', 'Patthana'". I have to say that the more I read the posts from that section, the more I'm convinced about authenticity of abhidhamma and commentaries - i.e. that they are coming from the Buddha's time. I mean, there are sutta passages that mention abhidhamma, as well as various atthakathas that explain it being recited at the first council, as well as a few sources from other schools. So, I'd be interested to hear what do you consider inconclusive about these quotes? I mean this list seems like a great place to discuss the specifics of certain quotes as there are many people here who are very good with Pali and texts. Best wishes #100503 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Sep 5, 2009 10:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta ptaus1 Hi Alex, It's interesting: Alex: > He also said that Suttas & Vinaya as authority. He did not say sutta, vinaya and abhidhamma. I've been reading the useful posts section, and there are several sutta and vinaya passages that do mention abhidhamma. Further, when you name "sutta and vinaya" as the authority, what's the Pali for it? I mean is it "sutta and vinaya", or is it "dhamma and vinaya"? Thanks. Best wishes #100504 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Sep 5, 2009 10:35 am Subject: Re: Element of space 7 of Y.Karunadasa ptaus1 Hi Sarah, Lukas and all, > > S: The sabhava dhammas have characteristics which can be known directly. For the asabhava dhammas, this is not true. They can be known, but by whom? The sabhava dhammas have to be known first. > > ... > > L: This is important that asabhava ruupa can also be known. > > sabhava - with characteristic. And this characteristic is stressed so often by Acharn Sujin. It can be known. > Can you say more on asabhava paramattha dhamma that is an object to pa~n~na? pt: I'd like to expand on this question if that's okay: 1.how is the citta process that has a subtle rupa like water element (but not asabhava rupa) as the object different from a citta process that has a subtle rupa like space (that is asabhava) as the object? 2. how are the above two citta processes different from a citta process that has a nimitta of a concept as the object? I'd assume that all three processes (water-element, space and concept) happen only in the mind door, i.e. there are is no sense-door citta process that precedes the mind-door process of cittas. So, I'm wondering what is the difference between the three, other than the object? I mean, how can panna tell the difference between the three, other than on the basis of mind-door simply adverting to different objects at the moment? Best wishes #100505 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Sep 5, 2009 10:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply regarding energy (#100484). I agree with you about the risk of getting lost in the concepts there, so for now I'll shelve that topic. About your reply on samatha (#100485) - I'll be glad to continue the discussion about it, especially considering that you're the greatest adversary of formal meditation on this list, so I think that if I get it right in an argument with you, then I can be certain I understand samatha properly ;-) But, please give me a day or two to come up with a proper ansewer as I think we have to be very precise in that discussion, otherwise we'll get into confusing concepts and relities pretty much the same like the problem with the energy discussion. Best wishes pt #100506 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Sep 5, 2009 11:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Please comment on this description of the path ptaus1 Hi Jon, thanks for your reply. Jon: > Thanks for the interest in this subject, and apologies for the delay in replying (I am away from home on a work trip at the moment). pt: I apologise as well for the late response. In fact, perhaps we can agree that there is no need for apologies when replying late - I'm just as happy when I receive replies from you, Sarah, Nina and others, regardless whether it's the next day, or week, month, etc. We're all busy with life, so it's understandable. old pt: > > Though I find the accumulations approach useful, I don't know how to bring it to a logical conclusion regarding the point of origin. For example, if we say that development of X (samatha, vipassana, or whatever mental property) in this life depends on the development of X in the previous life, then the same is true for the life before that, and the life before that, and so on. > > > > However, the above explanation also logically implies that if there was no X in the previous life to begin with, then no X can ever be developed in this or subsequent lives. Jon: > The "logical problem" you mention is similar to the question as to how conditions first came to be, or how anything first came to be. > > The Buddha did not attempt an explanation of this. He only said that a beginning was not discernable. > > For us, the question of a solution to this conundrum is a purely intellectual exercise and, as such, not of much value. What we do know is that every one of us has been in the round of existence for so long that tendencies of all kinds have at some time or another been developed and thus accumulated. > > Do you see the question of first beginning as one that must be answered in some manner? pt: Yes, because it is a major obstacle for the beginners. For me, this question seemed horribly important in the beginning because it is closely related to the issue of free will and effort. Then, after a few years, it started to become clear that those intellectual issues are not that important and that it is in fact all about being aware in the present moment. The thing is that I'm trying to explain some things to other people who know nothing about Buddhism, and for them, as it was for me in the beginning, this question seems very important. And if I tell them that the beginning is inconceivable, and that they should more care about the present moment than engage into intellectual excercises - well they take offence, just like I did before when somebody would dismiss my thoughts outright - because there's attachment to these thoughts obviously. But it's impossible to explain about attahcment to thoughts to beginners. So I was hoping for some sort of a provisional answer which allows a beginner to make some intellectual sense of the accumulations approach and therefore forget about it temporary so that there can be more awareness of the present moment. The same applies to the questions like: -"well if it's all just dhammas, and no control behind them, then how are we any different than robots?!" Of course, I understand (or at least think I do) that this is again thinking and even falling into annihilationist view, but you can't say that to a beginner or that his thinking is pointless at the moment. -"if there are both good and bad accumualtions, how can good accumulations ever prevail, since there's so much more bad ones?!" Anyway, if you or anyone else has responses to these 3 questions, which you found to work with beginners, please let me know. Best wishes #100507 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Sep 5, 2009 12:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta scottduncan2 Dear Chris, Regarding: C: "Thank you for your response...I was at Dhammagiri Forest Monastery today and spoke with Ven. Dhammasiha. His advice was not to get into arguments, not to feel I had to justify my stance, or call on others to justify theirs - just to be in this moment, fully aware." Scott: Good advice. And - not to be glib - prescribed or described, fully aware or not, there is only being in 'this moment.' Sincerely, Scott. #100508 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Sep 5, 2009 1:05 pm Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path szmicio Dear pt, > The same applies to the questions like: > > -"well if it's all just dhammas, and no control behind them, then how are we any different than robots?!" Of course, I understand (or at least think I do) that this is again thinking and even falling into annihilationist view, but you can't say that to a beginner or that his thinking is pointless at the moment. > > -"if there are both good and bad accumualtions, how can good accumulations ever prevail, since there's so much more bad ones?!" > > Anyway, if you or anyone else has responses to these 3 questions, which you found to work with beginners, please let me know. L: right, pt. You're right. Just thinking and awarness of present moment. That's a good reminder. I forget this so often. patticasamupada can also help you to answer those questions. there is only the moha that conditions everything. No people, things or robots. But the suffering? suffering yes, there is, but is there the one who suffers? :> Not in patticasamupada. Only the moha, there is. and the whole word of misery that is conditioned by moha. The idea of Self is such deeply rooted, and we still belive there is a "Self" who is "traveling samsara" ;> > -"if there are both good and bad accumualtions, how can good accumulations ever prevail, since there's so much more bad ones?!" L: And still only patticasamupada that matters, no Self anywhere, just moha. No one who can change things. I think it can really help people to understand. My best wishes Lukas #100509 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Sep 5, 2009 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > It's interesting: > > Alex: > > He also said that Suttas & Vinaya as authority. He did not say sutta, vinaya and abhidhamma. > > I've been reading the useful posts section, and there are several sutta and vinaya passages that do mention abhidhamma. Further, when you name "sutta and vinaya" as the authority, what's the Pali for it? I mean is it "sutta and vinaya", or is it "dhamma and vinaya"? Thanks. > > Best wishes > Hello ptaus1, and all, Regarding the word Abhidhamma. According to Bhikkhu Bodhi in MN book and some professor (forgot his name) the word does not mean Abhidhamma pitaka. For example abhidhammakatham is mention in mahagosinga sutta PTS MN 1.214, but the word according to scholars didn't mean Abhidhamma Pitaka (and there are multiple of them in early pre-Mahayana teachings). Word abhidhamma is mentioned alongside with abhivinaya. Just like abhivinaya does not mean abhivinaya Pitaka same with abhidhamma, it doesn't have to mean another pitaka. "abhidhamme abhivinaye" - Sangiti Sutta DN PTS 3.267 Abhidhamma = more advance dhamma (sutta teachings). Ex: MN1, MN18, MN148 are fairly complex sutta teachings. You'll find sutta to range from very "easy" teachings such as "the good kind of wife" to VERY complex teachings. Regading DN16: The words are sutte vinaye in suttas, in vinaya. (the words are in locative case meaning location). With metta, Alex #100510 From: "christine_forsyth" Date: Sat Sep 5, 2009 8:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta christine_fo... Hello pt, Nice to see you here. :) Just wanted to recall where the thread started - the Yahoo system seems to break the continuity at the foot of the thread and you lose track. This is the first post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/100418 pt said: "I mean, there are sutta passages that mention abhidhamma, as well as various atthakathas that explain it being recited at the first council, as well as a few sources from other schools." It would be great if you could put the quotes you refer to here in this thread. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---Life is only as long as an outbreath .. if you don't breathe in again--- #100511 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Sep 6, 2009 5:24 am Subject: Abhidhamma szmicio Dear friends, if we hear the Abhidhamma we can realize how accurate it is. How according to realities it is. No need to develop siila first, no need to do anything. No siila first. We can sit on the deck of the boat and in one moment there can be understanding of realities, without doing anything. This is so accurate. This is the Full Dhamma , the Abhidhamma. This story was said in Atthasalini: ------------ My best wishes Lukas #100512 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 6, 2009 10:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta ptaus1 Hi Alex, Thanks for your reply. Alex: > Regarding the word Abhidhamma. According to Bhikkhu Bodhi in MN book and some professor (forgot his name) the word does not mean Abhidhamma pitaka. ... > Abhidhamma = more advance dhamma (sutta teachings). So basically, whenever abhidhamma is mentioned in the suttas, it's not about abhidhamma pitaka, right? Are there perhaps some other words in the suttas that might refer to what's contained in the abhidhamma pitaka like matika or veyyakarana or something like that? Also there's that quote from Vinaya (from post 3350): "If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another saying -'pray study the suttas or gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards learn the vinaya' there is no offense" Vinaya iv 344 This seems to clearly differentiate between suttas and abhidhamma. > Regading DN16: > > The words are sutte vinaye in suttas, in vinaya. (the words are in locative case meaning location). > Thanks, that's interesting, I usually remember reading dhamma and vinaya. Best wishes #100513 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 6, 2009 10:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta ptaus1 Hi Chris, > C: It would be great if you could put the quotes you refer to here in this thread. pt: Just to make sure I understand what you mean - would you like me to: 1) reproduce the quotes about abhidhamma authenticity, or 2)about the 3 issues (17 mind-momnt, heart-base and rebirth-linking consciousness) you were asking in the post 100418? For the number one, all I can do is reproduce quotes from earlier posts here on the dsg list under "Abhidhamma7 - its origins" section in the Useful Posts. You can read those posts for yourself, and if you like I can just reproduce the actual quotes from suttas and atthakathas from those posts so that we can discuss them. Does that sound ok? For number two, what little I know on that topic, I've said it on Dhammawheel here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2169&start=60#p29732 Best wishes pt #100514 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 6, 2009 10:58 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (49) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 5. Subtle Ruupas produced by Kamma (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ If we had not studied the Abhidhamma we would have thought that all cittas originate in what we call in conventional language "brain". One may cling to a concept of brain and take it for self. The Abhidhamma can clear up misunderstandings about bodily phenomena and mental phenomena and the way they function. It explains how physical phenomena and mental phenomena are interrelated. Mental phenomena are dependant on physical phenomena [Note 6] and physical phenomena can have mental phenomena as conditioning factors. The conditioning factors for what we call body and mind are impermanent. Why then do we take body and mind for something permanent? We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (III, Khandhaa-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Elements, First Fifty, Ch 2, § 18, Cause) that the Buddha said to the monks at Saavatthí: "Body, monks is impermanent. That which is the cause, that which is the condition for the arising of body, that also is impermanent. How, monks, can a body which is compounded of the impermanent come to be permanent?" The same is said about the mental phenomena (classified as four aggregates or khandhas). We then read: "Thus seeing, the welltaught ariyan disicple [Note 7] is repelled by body, is repelled by feeling, by perception, by the 'activities' [Note 8]. He is repelled by consciousness. Being repelled by it he lusts not for it: not lusting he is set free. Thus he realizes: 'Rebirth is destroyed, lived is the righteous life, done is my task, for life in these conditions there is no here-after.'" [Note 6] the planes of existence where there are naama and ruupa. [Note 7] An ariyan is a person who has attained enlightenment. [Note 8] Cetasikas other than feeling and perception are classified as one khandha, that of the activities or formations, sa"nkhaarakkhandha. ********* Questions 1. Why can life faculty not arise in plants? 2. What is the base for citta rooted in aversion? 3. Does the brain have the function of base for cittas? 4. What is the base for rebirth-consciousness in the human plane of existence? ------------------------------ End of Chapter 5. Subtle Ruupas produced by Kamma. Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech will start from the next post. with metta, Han #100515 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 6, 2009 7:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 9/6/2009 1:25:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear friends, if we hear the Abhidhamma we can realize how accurate it is. -------------------------------------------- Why should we realize that? Who is this "we" who can realize how accurate it is, anyone? Why should anyone realize that, even if the claimed accuracy is fact? Why should anyone realize ultimate truth unless they are prepared to realize it? --------------------------------------------- How according to realities it is. No need to develop siila first, no need to do anything. -------------------------------------------- Really! No sila needed, and no need to do anything? That isn't according to what the Buddha taught, as far as I know. ------------------------------------------- No siila first. -------------------------------------------- I consider that to be plain false. ------------------------------------------ We can sit on the deck of the boat and in one moment there can be understanding of realities, without doing anything. This is so accurate. ----------------------------------------- And you know that ... HOW? What enables you to say "This is so accurate"?? Have you, ignoring ethics, character, and morality, and without calming the mind, and even without studying the actual Buddha word, but just by "hear(ing) the Abhidhamma," come to directly understand so-called realities "without doing anything" ? ------------------------------------------ This is the Full Dhamma , the Abhidhamma. -------------------------------------------- And you say that the Abhidhamma is the "Full Dhamma," implying that the Buddha's suttas recording his teachings across the land for 45 years is incomplete, and not the "full dhamma"? Lukas, certainty based on mere opinion is a snag and a trap. Please leave room for not-yet-knowing. I view an Abhidhammic triumphalism that treats the Abhidhamma Pitaka as superceding and even displacing all the rest of the Tipitaka to be a new religion, Abhidhammism, and not Buddhism. And basing such a religion not even on the Abhidhamma, itself, but on commentarial stories, takes one even further from the Buddha. ------------------------------------------- This story was said in Atthasalini: ------------ My best wishes Lukas ============================== With metta, Howard Virtue, Heightened Mind, and Wisdom - the Three Trainings /"There are these three trainings. Which three? The training in heightened virtue, the training in heightened mind, the training in heightened discernment. "And what is the training in heightened virtue? There is the case where a monk is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest fault. This is called the training in heightened virtue. "And what is the training in heightened mind? There is the case where a monk â€" quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful [mental] qualities â€" enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation â€" internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain â€" as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress â€" he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called the training in heightened mind. "And what is the training in heightened discernment? There is the case where a monk discerns as it actually is that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the training in heightened discernment "These are the three trainings."/ (Sikkha Sutta, AN 3.88) #100516 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 6, 2009 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta ptaus1 Hi Sarah, Nina, Alex, Scott, all, I've now read through the useful posts section on abhdhamma origins, and would like to ask a few questions. Apologies for raising this topic as it seems it was discussed many times on the list, but I haven't yet come accross the info I'm looking for, so hopefully I'm not wasting everybody's time: There are 3 quotes that are often given here regarding abhidhamma authenticity: 1. the ninefold division of the teachings like in MN 22: "Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma - discourses, stanzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories, marvels, and answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma, they do not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom." The Pali for the 9 teachings being: "sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, gatha, udana, itivuttaka, jataka, abbhutadhamma, and vedalla." 2. Atthasalini quote about the classification of abhidhamma pitaka: "Thus as rehearsed at the council, the Abhidhamma is Pitaka by Pitaka classification, Khuddaka-Nikaya by Nikaya classification, Veyyakarana by part classification and constitutes two or three thousand untis of text by the classification of textual units" 3. the vinaya quote Vin, 1V,344: "If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another, saying, Pray study the Suttas or Gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards you will learn the Vinaya - there is no offence in him," I'd like to ask: a) what are the Pali terms in the Vinaya quote - i.e. is it Sutta, Gatha and Veyyakarana, or is it actually Sutta, Gatha and Abhidhamma? I tried searching in the pali tipitaka on http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/ but can't figure out what's "IV, 344". b) where is the 9-fold division explained in more detail - i.e. what is veyyakarana, what is sutta, what is gatha, etc? Thanks for your help. pt #100517 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Sep 6, 2009 5:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta truth_aerator Hi PT and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Thanks for your reply. > > Alex: > > Regarding the word Abhidhamma. According to Bhikkhu Bodhi in MN book and some professor (forgot his name) the word does not mean Abhidhamma pitaka. > ... > > Abhidhamma = more advance dhamma (sutta teachings). > > So basically, whenever abhidhamma is mentioned in the suttas, it's >not about abhidhamma pitaka, right? Right, according to the scholars. Furthermore, I believe that it is important to examine the context of the word to see if it gives some clues. >Are there perhaps some other words in the suttas that might refer to >what's contained in the abhidhamma pitaka like matika or veyyakarana >or something like that? While there are some suttas that mention sutta, vinaya, matika it is questionable regarding what "matika" schedule means. It can be proto-Abhidhamma. It may be a sutta curriculum sort of thing organized to be taught. Even if it is proven that Abhidhamma Pitaka was taught by the Buddha, we would still have to determine WHOSE Abhidhamma? Sarvastivadins claim that some of their books was taught by Sariputta & Mogallana. Why not believe them? There were also MANY pre-mahayana schools (up to 20) who shared the same suttas but vastly DIFFERENT Abhidhamma Pitakas? How do we know for SURE that Theravada had the best and original Abhidhamma? > Also there's that quote from Vinaya (from post 3350): > "If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another saying -'pray study the suttas or gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards learn the vinaya' there is no offense" > Vinaya iv 344 > > This seems to clearly differentiate between suttas and abhidhamma. > > > Regading DN16: > > If I remember correctly, some vinaya passages are later, especially those that deal with 1st or later councils. > > The words are sutte vinaye in suttas, in vinaya. (the words are in locative case meaning location). > > > Thanks, that's interesting, I usually remember reading dhamma and vinaya. > > Best wishes > The phrase roughly goes like this: check what someone says according to the suttas & vinaya, if it doesn't match, then it is Not Dhamma. "'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation';" & "If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu - or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. " 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu - or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu - or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html#t-37 As to 1. the ninefold division of the teachings like in MN 22: "Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma - discourses, stanzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories, marvels, and answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma, they do not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom." The Pali for the 9 teachings being: "sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, gatha, udana, itivuttaka, jataka, abbhutadhamma, and vedalla." >>>>>>>>>>> NOTE, no word mentions ABHIDHAMMA. If it was really a distinct pitaka. With metta, Alex #100518 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Sep 6, 2009 6:44 pm Subject: Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta truth_aerator Hi PT and all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, Nina, Alex, Scott, all, > > There are 3 quotes that are often given here regarding abhidhamma authenticity: > > 1. the ninefold division of the teachings like in MN 22: >"Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma - discourses, >stanzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories, >marvels, and answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma, >they do not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom." > Note, No mention of the ultimate teaching, Abhidhamma Pitaka. > > 3. the vinaya quote Vin, 1V,344: > "If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another, saying, Pray study the Suttas or Gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards you will learn the Vinaya - there is no offence in him," > > > I'd like to ask: > > a) what are the Pali terms in the Vinaya quote - i.e. is it Sutta, Gatha and Veyyakarana, or is it actually Sutta, Gatha and Abhidhamma? I tried searching in the pali tipitaka on http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/ but can't figure out what's "IV, 344". > Vinaya IV, 344 = PTS book 4 page 344 (Pacitiya Bhikkhunivibhango) Pali "suttante okasam karapetva vinayam va abhidhammam sutta, vinaya, abhidhamma. But lets not forget that "abhidhamme vinetum, abhivinaye vinetum..." Just like abhivinaya doesn't mean AbhiVinaya pitaka, abhidhamma does not need to mean abhidhamma pitaka. PTS Vin 1.64 > b) where is the 9-fold division explained in more detail - i.e. >what is veyyakarana, what is sutta, what is gatha, etc? > > > The Pali for the 9 teachings being: "sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, gatha, udana, itivuttaka, jataka, abbhutadhamma, and vedalla." > > 2. Atthasalini quote about the classification of abhidhamma pitaka: > "Thus as rehearsed at the council, the Abhidhamma is Pitaka by Pitaka > classification, Khuddaka-Nikaya by Nikaya classification, Veyyakarana by part classification and constitutes two or three thousand untis of text by the classification of textual units" 1) Abhidhamma *pitaka* was not mentioned by the Buddha. 2nd) Atthasalini commentary is obviously later than the Buddha. With metta, Alex #100519 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 6, 2009 7:08 pm Subject: Sickness, to Howard nilovg Hi Howard (and pt), I am just back from a week of walking, and read about Rita's fever and the cancellation of your cruise. I sympathezie and I am glad Rita is recovering. This week Lodewijk and I were discussing your cruise, and we ourselves did several ones long ago, from Holland to New York. The thing is: too long at the table, too much eating. So perhaps you did not miss so much after all. This shows again anatta: we never know what the future has in store for us. It is all conditioned. Just before I went off I read your sympathetic mail to pt about thinking and I appreciated it. Just one remark aboiut it. You said: be alert, and I would like to elaborate more on this. But that is for the next days. With all pour best wishes, Nina and Lodewijk. P.S. Lodewijk said that in this day and age there is more catering to lobha and it is more difficult to develop satipatthaana in daily life. I tried to explain that this is not so, and then we said: let us ask Howard. It helps people to hear different points of view. But he agreed that nowadays with internet we have more possibilities to discuss Dhamma. #100520 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 6, 2009 10:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sickness, to Howard upasaka_howard Hi, Nina & Lodewijk (and pt) - In a message dated 9/6/2009 3:09:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard (and pt), I am just back from a week of walking, and read about Rita's fever and the cancellation of your cruise. I sympathezie and I am glad Rita is recovering. ----------------------------------------- Thanks! :-) I've also not been too well: Some asthmatic bronchitis and then just asthma (plus a drop of what Rita had), but I'm much on the mend now as well. ----------------------------------------- This week Lodewijk and I were discussing your cruise, and we ourselves did several ones long ago, from Holland to New York. The thing is: too long at the table, too much eating. ------------------------------------------ Yes! That's the "bad thing" about cruises. The only compensation is that we try use the stairs instead of the elevator whenever possible. ----------------------------------------- So perhaps you did not miss so much after all. ---------------------------------------- :-) -------------------------------------- This shows again anatta: we never know what the future has in store for us. -------------------------------------- Well, sure. There's much we don't know and much that is beyond significant influence by us. -------------------------------------- It is all conditioned. Just before I went off I read your sympathetic mail to pt about thinking and I appreciated it. Just one remark aboiut it. You said: be alert, and I would like to elaborate more on this. But that is for the next days. -------------------------------------- Okay! ;-) --------------------------------------- With all our best wishes, Nina and Lodewijk. ---------------------------------------- Thanks, Nina. I always appreciate our warm friendship. -------------------------------------- P.S. Lodewijk said that in this day and age there is more catering to lobha and it is more difficult to develop satipatthaana in daily life. I tried to explain that this is not so, and then we said: let us ask Howard. It helps people to hear different points of view. But he agreed that nowadays with internet we have more possibilities to discuss Dhamma. ------------------------------------------------- My take on this: There are many more distractions these days than there used to be, but, on the other hand, for most people life used to be far more difficult - even brutish, with little time for devotion to such things as Dhamma. And now, with "internet Dhamma" as a good example, today's distractions are balanced by many advantages including a degree if leisure time. The "bottom line" on this, as I see it, is that human nature is still human nature, with all its deficiencies and all its possibilities, and for the most part, now is a relatively auspicious time to have a human birth, especially for those like us who live in comfortable places and circumstances, and we should make the most of it. ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100521 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 4:17 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma szmicio Dear Howard, I just wanted to share my appreciation to Abhidhamma. > if we hear the Abhidhamma we can realize how accurate it is. > -------------------------------------------- > Why should we realize that? Who is this "we" who can realize how > accurate it is, anyone? L: citta and cetasika. > Why should anyone realize that, even if the claimed > accuracy is fact? L: To have more sadha in the teachings. But that's the matter of accumulations. Different people , different levels of sensitivity. > Why should anyone realize ultimate truth unless they are > prepared to realize it? L: For sure you think of "ultimate truth", but it's not like that there is "ultimate truth". There is this present moments, isnt it enought? There is really no need to think "ultimate truths", Howard. > --------------------------------------------- > > How according to realities it is. No need to develop siila first, no need > to do anything. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: Really! No sila needed L: siila is very precious. but also sadha is very precious. Sadha is the cause of each kusala. In conventional sense sadha is your devotion. So it's so important to be devoted to the Theras words and to the whole teachings of tipitaka. >H: and no need to do anything? That isn't > according to what the Buddha taught, as far as I know. L: But Buddha taught understanding. Do you think to do anything to understand. Let's answer yourself, Howard. Do you really need to do some special thing or be somewhere else to understand the realities at this very moment? Isnt it all just the matter of doubts? > ------------------------------------------- > > No siila first. > -------------------------------------------- > I consider that to be plain false. L: It's not false. If you see the Suttas, you will know how much Buddha appreciated siila. He was so compasionate, so he taught us Patthana and Abhidhamma. each akusala dhamma can condition kusala dhamma. And this is so true. We don't need to develop siila first. Siila is conditioned. No one can make siila to arise. There can be a lot of moments of siila in life but we can be misleaded by mana,conceit afterwards, when we think "Oh, siila is the foremost, everybody should develop it first". But of course not in each case. But mostly when there is no understanding akusala can arise and we dont know it. Do you take siila for yourself, for what you are? There can be awarness of siila in life, so you know then it's just restraining consciousness, that is conditioned. Not yours. This is the first moment of not having dukkha for yourself. this is only the restraining consciousness that refrain from saying this or that, not you. > ------------------------------------------ > > We can sit on the deck of the boat and in one moment there can be > understanding of realities, without doing anything. This is so accurate. > ----------------------------------------- > And you know that ... HOW? What enables you to say "This is so > accurate"?? Have you, ignoring ethics, character, and morality, and without > calming the mind, and even without studying the actual Buddha word, but just by > "hear(ing) the Abhidhamma," come to directly understand so-called realities > "without doing anything" ? L: Yes, I am saavaka, the hearer. I dont care for anything else. One moment of siila in my life, and it's really enought to me. If there will be more, that's good, if not that's also good. siila is not mine, calm is not mine. there is not even one thing that is mine. > ------------------------------------------ > > This is the Full Dhamma , the Abhidhamma. > -------------------------------------------- > And you say that the Abhidhamma is the "Full Dhamma," implying that > the Buddha's suttas recording his teachings across the land for 45 years is > incomplete, and not the "full dhamma"? Lukas, certainty based on > mere opinion is a snag and a trap. L: Suttas are the teachings in short. My best wishes Lukas #100522 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 5:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > It's interesting: > > Alex: > > He also said that Suttas & Vinaya as authority. He did not say sutta, vinaya and abhidhamma. > > I've been reading the useful posts section, and there are several sutta and vinaya passages that do mention abhidhamma. Further, when you name "sutta and vinaya" as the authority, what's the Pali for it? I mean is it "sutta and vinaya", or is it "dhamma and vinaya"? Thanks. > > Best wishes > Dear Lucas Sometimes the terms 'sutta and vinaya', sutta means Dhamma as whole Venerable Dhammando explained: Dhammanado: They are: "1) The "well-said" (sutta), defined as the whole of the Tipi?aka. 2) The "conforming to the well-said" (suttanuloma), meaning utterances than can be shown to be Dhamma or Vinaya by using either of the two sets of four great standards. 3) The "disquisition on meaning", "commentary" (atthakatha), meaning the works preserved in Sinhalese that the Mahavihara commentators used as their source texts. The contents of these were held to date from the First Council, and so were viewed as authoritative unless contradicted by sutta or suttanuloma. 4) The "personal opinion [of an acariya]" (attanomati), said to be the weakest source of authority"" end quote byDhammanando best robert #100523 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Sep 6, 2009 11:34 pm Subject: Immaculate Virtue... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Purity of Virtue is the root of Perfection! His virtue is immaculate. His wearing the bowl and robe pleases and inspires trust. His going forth will bear its fruit. A pure Bhikkhu never fears that self-reproach will obsess and consume his mind, since there is indeed no darkness inside the sun... A Bhikkhu of bright virtue shines forth even in the forest of reclusive ascetics, by the radiance of his past deeds, just like the moon lights up the clear night sky... Now if the body smell of pure Bhikkhus can succeed in pleasing even the deities, what then of the perfume of their virtue? It is a far more splendid scent than all the other perfumes in the world, because the fragrance of pure morality spreads unhindered in all directions! The favours done for a pure & virtuous one, even when only few, will bear great fruit! The pure one thus becomes a fountain of advantage! No fetid fermentations plagues a virtuous one, since his pure behaviour digged out the root of future suffering in lives to come. Excellence among humans & also even among deities, if longed for, is not hard to gain for one whose morality is perfected! However, when ethics is fully perfected, then mind seeks only the supreme Nibbana: The state where utterly pure peace prevails! Such is the blessed fruit of clean virtue, ethics, rectitude, goodness, integrity, righteousness, and high-mindedness: It awards fulfilment, so let a wise one know it well: This root of all the branches of perfection! <...> Have a nice pure and virtuous day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #100524 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sickness, to Howard nilovg Hi Howard, pt, Lukas and all, Op 7-sep-2009, om 4:30 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > And now, with "internet Dhamma" as a good example, today's > distractions are balanced by many advantages including a degree if > leisure time. > The "bottom line" on this, as I see it, is that human nature is still > human nature, with all its deficiencies and all its possibilities, > and for the > most part, now is a relatively auspicious time to have a human birth, > especially for those like us who live in comfortable places and > circumstances, > and we should make the most of it. --------- N: Thank you Howard, very good. This will help Lodewijk. Let us make the most of it. Also at this very moment! As to your saying 'be alert', yes, the Buddha also said: thus should you train yourselves, monks. When we hear: be alert, be mindful, we may forget anatta. I shall add what I heard on a recording. When we listen and discuss more, there will be more understanding of anatta. It is wrong to try to have more sati. It is not through cetanaa, intention, that there will be sati. Right understanding of paramattha dhammas conditions the arising of sati and direct understanding but we do not know when. We know the characteristic of dosa, but it is not yet known as a dhamma, a conditioned reality. Pariyatti does not refer to theory, it refers to the reality right now. I said to Kh Sujin that I still have doubts about right understanding of the reality of the present moment as a dhamma. She asked: Is it you who experiences hardness? I said: No. Kh Sujin: that is pariyatti. Thus, this reminds us that pariyatti is not theory. When we wonder when we shall know the difference between thinking about realities and sati we think of the future. Who knows when? It is not a question of 'we', but it is anatta, Kh Sujin said. When the understanding of the characteristics of seeing, hardness and all realities appearing one at a time is not yet sufficient, there are no conditions for direct awareness and understanding. It is important to realize that understanding of pariyatti is not yet sufficient. The whole day hardness appears, but its charactreistic is not yet known as only a dhamma. But there can be a beginning of knowing its characteristic as a dhamma. There is a difference between such a moment and the time before we listened to the Dhamma and did not know anything at all. Kh Sujin: Right understanding should be very natural, no idea of 'I can do it'. Can we start from now on to understand realities more and more? Pt: looking forward to your twenty questions, but can you divide them into small portions? Nina. #100525 From: "christine_forsyth" Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 7:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Sometimes the terms 'sutta and vinaya', sutta means Dhamma as whole > Venerable Dhammando explained: > > Dhammanado: They are: > > "1) The "well-said" (sutta), defined as the whole of the Tipi?aka. > 2) The "conforming to the well-said" (suttanuloma), meaning utterances than can be shown to be Dhamma or Vinaya by using either of the two sets of four great standards. > 3) The "disquisition on meaning", "commentary" (atthakatha), meaning the works preserved in Sinhalese that the Mahavihara commentators used as their source texts. The contents of these were held to date from the First Council, and so were viewed as authoritative unless contradicted by sutta or suttanuloma. > 4) The "personal opinion [of an acariya]" (attanomati), said to be the weakest source of authority"" > end quote byDhammanando > best > robert > Hello Robert, Thanks for the quote. Could you please give the link to the thread/post where Ajahn said this? metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---Life is only as long as an outbreath .. if you don't breathe in again--- #100526 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 7:18 am Subject: Re: to Lukas, Acharn meeting nilovg Dear Lukas, You expressed some agitation about meeting Acharn. Op 29-aug-2009, om 8:33 heeft Lukas Szmidt het volgende geschreven: > I am looking forward to some more understanding after the > discusion. I will be here in Poland, but I want to prepared some > questions, and also have a hope that you or Sarah can transcribe in > brief AS's answers , when you're in Bkk. ------- N: Now you are thinking of the future, but what about this moment now? Your thinking is conditioned. Since aeons in the past we were thinking, and thinking is never with neutral cittas, always with kusala cittas or akusala cittas. In a process of cittas the javanacittas which think follow upon the mind-door adverting- consciousness which is a kiriyacitta. Nobody can stop the cittas in a process, and it depends on conditions what types of citta follow upon the mind-door adverting-consciousness. The whole purpose of studying such details is more understanding of anatta. Only such understanding can condition the ariisng of sati and direct understanding. So, we never know the future. Think of Howard's cruise he suddenly had to cancel at the last moment. You will be in Bgk in February, or it may not happen, all because of conditions. On my many trips with Kh Sujin in India and Sri Lanka, it happened all the time that we could make plans, but that these did not always materialize. Something did happen: a friend became sick and then the bus had to delay, or someone got wounded when stepping out of the bus, or the luggage was lost. Kh Sujin repeated: 'Do not expect anything'. So also for your meeting and growth of understanding: just let it come by conditions, no expectations of a sudden growth of pa~n~naa after one meeting. No use of thinking of more understanding in the future, that will obstruct its growth. As Howard said: let us make the most of living in this time we can still listen to the Dhamma. Make the most of the present moment, I would add. Your only concern is this very moment as Ken always reminds us. And you do, when I read your inspiring posts. When you write you think of the others' wellfare and there is no lobha. That is the best way. I appreciate Kh Sujin's constant reminders: do not think of yourself. Do you have a tape recorder? As Sarah said, we shall help you in every way. Do not worry about preparing questions, these will arise because of conditions. But if you like to do this, it is good. Nina. #100527 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 7:47 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 4, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn: It is beneficial to talk about what we can experience right now because we can understand that. When we talk about what we cannot experience directly we are in darkness. When we understand the characteristics and functions of the realities which can be directly experienced there is light. I would like to understand more and more the realities of my life. Most people take seeing for "my seeing"; they take it for self. Or, they take hearing for "self"; they take the body for "my body". All realities fall away very rapidly, they cannot stay. Each part of the body falls away immediately; otherwise one could not notice any changes in the body. Tuna: In order to be happy in one's life I find it essential to be a good Moslem. One should say one's prayers, read the Quran and observe the Ramadan, the fasting. The rich should give money to the poor every year. Acharn: So long as there is ignorance about one's life one cannot be completely happy. Ignorance is the opposite of wisdom or understanding. Wisdom is to be considered more valuable than any kind of property; it is the most beneficial thing in life. I think that wisdom can develop. Tuna: I agree with you. Acharn: Wisdom can have a deep understanding of this very moment. It can understand how phenomena are conditioned; it can understand whether phenomena are permanent or impermanent, whether or not they belong to a self. Each reality which occurs goes away very quickly, it cannot come back anymore. There is just a moment of hearing and then it is completely gone, we cannot find the hearing anywhere after it is gone. Each reality, such as seeing, feeling or touching, is only very momentary. If we cling to any moment there is ignorance, we do not know the impermanence of realities that have arisen and fallen away already. During the time we are talking many different realities have arisen and fallen away already. Each reality arises because of its appropriate conditions; nobody can make any reality arise at all. Eyesense is a condition for seeing; without eyesense there cannot be seeing. Earsense is a condition for hearing; without earsense there cannot be hearing. When we understand that the realities of our life are conditioned we can cope with our problems wisely. When there are the right conditions a particular reality will arise. For example, when you like heat and you experience it there are conditions for pleasant feeling. If you cannot have the heat you like or the flavour you like there are no conditions for pleasant feeling. One is attached to all objects one can experience through the senses; one keeps on thinking of them. One is attached to seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. I think that there are many different kinds of consciousness. We can use the word consciousness instead of soul. The word soul can give rise to misunderstandings, it is not precise enough. If we use the word soul it implies something permanent. Consciousness experiences one object at a time and it is not permanent; it changes all the time. ******* Nina. #100529 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 8:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > > Hello Robert, > > > > Thanks for the quote. Could you please give the link to the thread/post where Ajahn said this? > > > >Dear chris > I forget where he originaly said that but here is a thread on my forum that includes it. http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=10&t=108&st=0#entry684 > best > robert > #100530 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 8:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 9/7/2009 12:19:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Howard, I just wanted to share my appreciation to Abhidhamma. --------------------------------------------- That's fine! Actually I appreciate it as well, though my perspective on it is different from yours. My main objection is to "Abhidhammic triumplalism." ---------------------------------------------- > if we hear the Abhidhamma we can realize how accurate it is. > -------------------------------------------- > Why should we realize that? Who is this "we" who can realize how > accurate it is, anyone? L: citta and cetasika. ------------------------------------------ I can understand why you understood me as you did. What I meant by that, though, was the ordinary question you quote next. ------------------------------------------- > Why should anyone realize that, even if the claimed > accuracy is fact? ---------------------------------------------- L: To have more sadha in the teachings. But that's the matter of accumulations. Different people , different levels of sensitivity. ----------------------------------------------- ;-) I understand that you have faith in the Abhidhamma. But when you speak of how we can "realize how accurate it is," that suggests fact rather than possibility, and knowing rather than believing. And it is this that I am questioning. ---------------------------------------------- > Why should anyone realize ultimate truth unless they are > prepared to realize it? L: For sure you think of "ultimate truth", but it's not like that there is "ultimate truth". There is this present moments, isnt it enought? There is really no need to think "ultimate truths", Howard. -------------------------------------------------- I'm not following you here, Lukas. What do you mean by Abhidhamma being "accurate"? I presume you mean that it explicates ultimate truth rather than mere conbentional notions. I do believe that Abhidhamma presents more than there being only "present moments." And as regards that, of course it is always and only "the present time." There is no big wonder about that. If the point is to not get lost in recalling things past or in fantasizing about a possible future, well, of course: that is basic Dhamma. It does not specially relate to the Abhidhamma. ------------------------------------------------ > --------------------------------------------- > > How according to realities it is. No need to develop siila first, no need > to do anything. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: Really! No sila needed L: siila is very precious. but also sadha is very precious. Sadha is the cause of each kusala. In conventional sense sadha is your devotion. So it's so important to be devoted to the Theras words and to the whole teachings of tipitaka. ----------------------------------------------- Apparent saddha unfounded in experience and a modicum of calm and wisdom need not be genuine saddha. There are religionists all over the world with such faith, sometimes a faith that will lead them to do terrible things. Buddhist saddha is a confidence and trust growing out of actual experience. And Buddhist saddha should be confidence in the tiratana, and not in the accuracy of particular texts. ---------------------------------------------- >H: and no need to do anything? That isn't > according to what the Buddha taught, as far as I know. L: But Buddha taught understanding. ---------------------------------------------- Religionists all over the world think they "understand" the way things are. They are all SO VERY SURE! But genuine understanding doesn't just appear out of the blue. Genuine deep understanding requires enormous cultivation. I believe - that is "believe, not know" - that the Buddha taught us how to properly cultivate deep understanding and much more, and I have taken him seriously when he invited us to "come and see." I am doing that. So far, so good! ;-) ---------------------------------------------- Do you think to do anything to understand. --------------------------------------------- Yes indeed. (And that is "ordinary speak." It does not imply an entity who is "the actor".) ------------------------------------------- Let's answer yourself, Howard. Do you really need to do some special thing or be somewhere else to understand the realities at this very moment? -------------------------------------------- Forget about the "somewhere else" business. There is always and only "here and now". But what is needed is indeed something special, and it is called "practice." The Buddha taught for 45 years about it. Of course, at this very moment we see or hear or taste or smell or bodily sense or cognize. But we do NOT understand "realities" of the moment. We lack clarity and we lack insight into the "realities" that arise in consciousness at this very moment. We do NOT truly understand their nature of seamless interdependence and lack of separate, independent existence - their merely conventional appearance as separate entities, their being conditions for suffering, their fleetingness, their impersonality, and their lack of any core of own being. We haven't a clue of what is actually what! ----------------------------------------------- Isnt it all just the matter of doubts? ----------------------------------------------- We SHOULD have doubt! Not skeptical doubt, but a questioning, searching mind that looks to actually *know* what is what and that clearly distinguishes between belief and knowing. Our world and its people are suffering and dying from the actions of "true believers". We must not think we know when we only believe, but instead must look and see. Ehipassiko! ------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------------------------- > > No siila first. > -------------------------------------------- > I consider that to be plain false. L: It's not false. If you see the Suttas, you will know how much Buddha appreciated siila. He was so compasionate, so he taught us Patthana and Abhidhamma. each akusala dhamma can condition kusala dhamma. And this is so true. We don't need to develop siila first. Siila is conditioned. No one can make siila to arise. -------------------------------------------- That is false. It IS conditioned, and thus it can be cultivated. ------------------------------------------ There can be a lot of moments of siila in life but we can be misleaded by mana,conceit afterwards, when we think "Oh, siila is the foremost, everybody should develop it first". -------------------------------------------- So, how are things going in this world where sila is largely uncultivated? And as for "first," nothing is "first". Conditionality is a complex web. ----------------------------------------------- But of course not in each case. But mostly when there is no understanding akusala can arise and we dont know it. Do you take siila for yourself, for what you are? ----------------------------------------------- No. Why do you ask? ---------------------------------------------- There can be awarness of siila in life, so you know then it's just restraining consciousness, that is conditioned. Not yours. ------------------------------------------------ Lukas, you are repeating phrases you've heard. It's just a litany. Yes, there can be awareness - or not. Nothing comes from nothing. Knowing that conditions arise from conditions is not a basis for excusing ourselves from useful action. The Buddha spent lifetime teaching means to cultivate helpful conditions. I pray he didn't waste that time. ------------------------------------------------- This is the first moment of not having dukkha for yourself. this is only the restraining consciousness that refrain from saying this or that, not you. > ------------------------------------------ > > We can sit on the deck of the boat and in one moment there can be > understanding of realities, without doing anything. This is so accurate. > ----------------------------------------- > And you know that ... HOW? What enables you to say "This is so > accurate"?? Have you, ignoring ethics, character, and morality, and without > calming the mind, and even without studying the actual Buddha word, but just by > "hear(ing) the Abhidhamma," come to directly understand so-called realities > "without doing anything" ? L: Yes, I am saavaka, the hearer. I dont care for anything else. One moment of siila in my life, and it's really enough to me. If there will be more, that's good, if not that's also good. siila is not mine, calm is not mine. there is not even one thing that is mine. ----------------------------------------------- You can do as much or as little as you wish. Your choice, of course. However, the term 'savaka' pertains to those who learned directly from the Buddha around 2500 years ago. It carries no implication of being inert listening devices. The followers of the Buddha practiced what he preached. ----------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------ > > This is the Full Dhamma , the Abhidhamma. > -------------------------------------------- > And you say that the Abhidhamma is the "Full Dhamma," implying that > the Buddha's suttas recording his teachings across the land for 45 years is > incomplete, and not the "full dhamma"? Lukas, certainty based on > mere opinion is a snag and a trap. L: Suttas are the teachings in short. -------------------------------------------------- The suttas are the word of the Buddha! What you write here is Abhidhammism at its worst. It comes close to (unintentionally) slandering the Buddha. ------------------------------------------------ My best wishes Lukas ============================== You have my very best wishes as well, Lukas. With metta, Howard /Safeguarding the Truth "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth." "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. "If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has something reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth./ (From the Canki Sutta) #100531 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 3:38 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma szmicio Dear Howard, > > Why should anyone realize that, even if the claimed > > accuracy is fact? > ---------------------------------------------- > > L: To have more sadha in the teachings. But that's the matter of > accumulations. Different people , different levels of sensitivity. > ----------------------------------------------- > H: ;-) I understand that you have faith in the Abhidhamma. But when you > speak of how we can "realize how accurate it is," that suggests fact rather > than possibility, and knowing rather than believing. And it is this that I > am questioning. L: I am rather the guy of faith(confidence), then understanding, so I leave it. > ---------------------------------------------- > > > Why should anyone realize ultimate truth unless they are > > prepared to realize it? > > L: For sure you think of "ultimate truth", but it's not like that there is > "ultimate truth". There is this present moments, isnt it enought? > There is really no need to think "ultimate truths", Howard. > -------------------------------------------------- >H: I'm not following you here, Lukas. What do you mean by Abhidhamma > being "accurate"? L: It's complicated to explain. No words to express that. > L: siila is very precious. but also sadha is very precious. Sadha is the > cause of each kusala. In conventional sense sadha is your devotion. So it's > so important to be devoted to the Theras words and to the whole teachings > of tipitaka. > ----------------------------------------------- > H:Apparent saddha unfounded in experience and a modicum of calm and > wisdom need not be genuine saddha. There are religionists all over > the world with such faith, > sometimes a faith that will lead them to do terrible things. > Buddhist saddha is a confidence and trust growing out of actual > experience. And Buddhist saddha should be confidence in the tiratana, and not in the > accuracy of particular texts. > ---------------------------------------------- L: That's the point we agree each other ;> The sadha is not the religious belive as you said. of course tiratana is right. but also the ability to appreciate the Text is some kind of sadha. Were there is no sadha to the Text, it can be like no sadha to the Teacher. Buddha so many times was saying: that first we have to listen. recently I spend some time on reading majjhianikaya, and I was shocked that in so many places Buddha point us listening to the Dhamma first. Dont you think that if we don have appreciation to the Text first we lost something? Maybe understanding even. My intention to start this post was to share with you all guys the Text appreciation. We shouldnt be so formal about pali and what scientist are saying. I think we should open our hearts to Dhamma, wheathe it's Sutta, Abhidhamma, Vinaya or commentaries. It really helps. especially historical survies doesnt help. > >H: and no need to do anything? That isn't > > according to what the Buddha taught, as far as I know. > > L: But Buddha taught understanding. > ---------------------------------------------- > H: Religionists all over the world think they "understand" the way things > are. They are all SO VERY SURE! L: yes, of course. But why they dont understand? because they dont have sadha. >H: But genuine understanding doesn't just > appear out of the blue. Genuine deep understanding requires enormous > cultivation. L: I cant agree with that, Howard. The main cause the scientist not understand Dhamma is because they dont have sadha to the Teachings. They just try to grasp it intelectualy. They never start the paryiatti even. But what is bhavana is different then sitting or some other cultivations. I believe - that is "believe, not know" - that the Buddha taught us > how to properly cultivate deep understanding and much more, and I have taken > him seriously when he invited us to "come and see." I am doing that. So > far, so good! ;-) L: of course, come and see :D . So no need to sit. > ---------------------------------------------- > > Do you think to do anything to understand. > --------------------------------------------- > Yes indeed. (And that is "ordinary speak." It does not imply an entity > who is "the actor".) L: there is no actor, there is no one who suffers, there is no one who develops, but there is development. > Isnt it all just the matter of doubts? > ----------------------------------------------- > H: We SHOULD have doubt! Not skeptical doubt, but a questioning, > searching mind that looks to actually *know* what is what and that clearly > distinguishes between belief and knowing. L: OK, but sadha is more trust, confidence then belief. blind faith is wrong. >H: Our world and its people are suffering > and dying from the actions of "true believers". We must not think we know > when we only believe, but instead must look and see. Ehipassiko! > ------------------------------------------------ L: but i never didnt mean this, by saying: let's appreciate the teachings. I am not saying that is the only truth. > But of course not in each case. But mostly when there is no understanding > akusala can arise and we dont know it. > Do you take siila for yourself, for what you are? > ----------------------------------------------- > No. Why do you ask? > ---------------------------------------------- L: When there is no right understanding, we can take siila for ourselfes, that's what we are. > There can be awarness of siila in life, so you know then it's just > restraining consciousness, that is conditioned. Not yours. > ------------------------------------------------ > H: Lukas, you are repeating phrases you've heard. It's just a litany. > Yes, there can be awareness - or not. Nothing comes from nothing. Knowing that > conditions arise from conditions is not a basis for excusing ourselves > from useful action. L: If it's really excusing, then it's akusala. H: The Buddha spent lifetime teaching means to cultivate > helpful conditions. I pray he didn't waste that time. > ------------------------------------------------- L: Yes I also hope so. you're right that we cant neglect siila. Buddha has so many faith in kusala, so many faith in siila, so we also should cultivate it. My best wishes Lukas #100532 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 4:20 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma szmicio Dear friends, SN 25.8 Tanha Sutta Craving Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: S iii 227 CDB i 1006 ----------- At Savatthi. "Monks, craving for forms is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas is inconstant, changeable, alterable. "One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry. "One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry. "One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening." -------------- My best wishes Lukas #100533 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 12:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 9/7/2009 11:38:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Howard, > > Why should anyone realize that, even if the claimed > > accuracy is fact? > ---------------------------------------------- > > L: To have more sadha in the teachings. But that's the matter of > accumulations. Different people , different levels of sensitivity. > ----------------------------------------------- > H: ;-) I understand that you have faith in the Abhidhamma. But when you > speak of how we can "realize how accurate it is," that suggests fact rather > than possibility, and knowing rather than believing. And it is this that I > am questioning. L: I am rather the guy of faith(confidence), then understanding, so I leave it. ---------------------------------------------- Okay. :-) ------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------- > > > Why should anyone realize ultimate truth unless they are > > prepared to realize it? > > L: For sure you think of "ultimate truth", but it's not like that there is > "ultimate truth". There is this present moments, isnt it enought? > There is really no need to think "ultimate truths", Howard. > -------------------------------------------------- >H: I'm not following you here, Lukas. What do you mean by Abhidhamma > being "accurate"? L: It's complicated to explain. No words to express that. --------------------------------------------- Okay. --------------------------------------------- > L: siila is very precious. but also sadha is very precious. Sadha is the > cause of each kusala. In conventional sense sadha is your devotion. So it's > so important to be devoted to the Theras words and to the whole teachings > of tipitaka. > ----------------------------------------------- > H:Apparent saddha unfounded in experience and a modicum of calm and > wisdom need not be genuine saddha. There are religionists all over > the world with such faith, > sometimes a faith that will lead them to do terrible things. > Buddhist saddha is a confidence and trust growing out of actual > experience. And Buddhist saddha should be confidence in the tiratana, and not in the > accuracy of particular texts. > ---------------------------------------------- L: That's the point we agree each other ;> --------------------------------------------- Pleasant to "hear". :-) ------------------------------------------ The sadha is not the religious belive as you said. of course tiratana is right. but also the ability to appreciate the Text is some kind of sadha. ------------------------------------------- I'm not sure that appreciation is a kind of saddha, but I know what you mean. It is close. ------------------------------------------ Were there is no sadha to the Text, it can be like no sadha to the Teacher. Buddha so many times was saying: that first we have to listen. ------------------------------------------ I don't deny either of these. I simply say that saddha in a teaching has to have a basis other than it is tradition, or it appeals to me, or "This is my teacher." As the Kalama Sutta expresses, it needs to be a matter of corroborating experience. ----------------------------------------- recently I spend some time on reading majjhianikaya, and I was shocked that in so many places Buddha point us listening to the Dhamma first. ---------------------------------------------- Of course! There is no way to know the teaching that is to be applied without encountering the teaching. --------------------------------------------- Dont you think that if we don have appreciation to the Text first we lost something? Maybe understanding even. My intention to start this post was to share with you all guys the Text appreciation. We shouldn't be so formal about pali and what scientist are saying. I think we should open our hearts to Dhamma, wheathe it's Sutta, Abhidhamma, Vinaya or commentaries. It really helps. ---------------------------------------------- I share your view that texts are to be examined and understood. If they are appreciated they will be applied. -------------------------------------------- especially historical survies doesn't help. --------------------------------------------- That's largely true, I believe. ------------------------------------------- > >H: and no need to do anything? That isn't > > according to what the Buddha taught, as far as I know. > > L: But Buddha taught understanding. > ---------------------------------------------- > H: Religionists all over the world think they "understand" the way things > are. They are all SO VERY SURE! L: yes, of course. But why they dont understand? because they dont have sadha. ----------------------------------------------- No, not at all! They DO have saddha, but it is often a harmful faith, ungrounded in experience. It is blind faith. ---------------------------------------------- >H: But genuine understanding doesn't just > appear out of the blue. Genuine deep understanding requires enormous > cultivation. L: I cant agree with that, Howard. The main cause the scientist not understand Dhamma is because they dont have sadha to the Teachings. They just try to grasp it intelectualy. They never start the paryiatti even. But what is bhavana is different then sitting or some other cultivations. ------------------------------------------------ They may well have faith and even be well read in Dhamma, but lack the initiative and energy to apply what they read. And, again, the Buddha did *not*, in my opinion teach people to merely study and think about what he taught. ------------------------------------------------ I believe - that is "believe, not know" - that the Buddha taught us > how to properly cultivate deep understanding and much more, and I have taken > him seriously when he invited us to "come and see." I am doing that. So > far, so good! ;-) L: of course, come and see :D . So no need to sit. ---------------------------------------------- LOLOL! The Buddha taught actual "conventional" practice to cultivate the mind. --------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------- > > Do you think to do anything to understand. > --------------------------------------------- > Yes indeed. (And that is "ordinary speak." It does not imply an entity > who is "the actor".) L: there is no actor, there is no one who suffers, there is no one who develops, but there is development. ------------------------------------------------ And the conditions that constitute that development, together, constitute what in ordinary speech and understanding is called practice. And included among those conditions are many, many instances of wholesome kamma and application of energy and effort. ------------------------------------------------- > Isnt it all just the matter of doubts? > ----------------------------------------------- > H: We SHOULD have doubt! Not skeptical doubt, but a questioning, > searching mind that looks to actually *know* what is what and that clearly > distinguishes between belief and knowing. L: OK, but sadha is more trust, confidence then belief. blind faith is wrong. ----------------------------------------------- And what should be the basis for the trust and confidence? It is not a random matter, and there is a long list of things that should *not*serve as basis. Please see the Kalama Sutta for the Buddha's answer. The core is the following: "So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering" â€" then you should abandon them.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. "Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' â€" then you should enter & remain in them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >H: Our world and its people are suffering > and dying from the actions of "true believers". We must not think we know > when we only believe, but instead must look and see. Ehipassiko! > ------------------------------------------------ L: but i never didn't mean this, by saying: let's appreciate the teachings. I am not saying that is the only truth. > But of course not in each case. But mostly when there is no understanding > akusala can arise and we dont know it. > Do you take siila for yourself, for what you are? > ----------------------------------------------- > No. Why do you ask? > ---------------------------------------------- L: When there is no right understanding, we can take siila for ourselfes, that's what we are. ---------------------------------------------------------------- I find the notion of taking sila for "myself" as just silly. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > There can be awarness of siila in life, so you know then it's just > restraining consciousness, that is conditioned. Not yours. > ------------------------------------------------ > H: Lukas, you are repeating phrases you've heard. It's just a litany. > Yes, there can be awareness - or not. Nothing comes from nothing. Knowing that > conditions arise from conditions is not a basis for excusing ourselves > from useful action. L: If it's really excusing, then it's akusala. --------------------------------------------- Yes, it would be. -------------------------------------------- H: The Buddha spent lifetime teaching means to cultivate > helpful conditions. I pray he didn't waste that time. > ------------------------------------------------- L: Yes I also hope so. you're right that we cant neglect siila. Buddha has so many faith in kusala, so many faith in siila, so we also should cultivate it. ----------------------------------------------- Yes, study the teachings and summaries of the teachings, and cultivate sila and equanimity and understanding and relinquishment. -------------------------------------------------- My best wishes -------------------------------------------------- And mine for you. :-) ------------------------------------------------- Lukas ============================= With metta, Howard P. S. Please note the chain of conditioning expressed in the following signature quotation, and particularly note what it starts with. Path to Full Awakening /Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward./ (From the Kimattha Sutta) #100534 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 5:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta truth_aerator Dear Lucas, Robert and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Lucas > Sometimes the terms 'sutta and vinaya', sutta means Dhamma as whole > Venerable Dhammando explained: > > Dhammanado: They are: > > "1) The "well-said" (sutta), defined as the whole of the Tipi?aka. > 2) The "conforming to the well-said" (suttanuloma), meaning utterances than can be shown to be Dhamma or Vinaya by using either of the two sets of four great standards. > 3) The "disquisition on meaning", "commentary" (atthakatha), meaning the works preserved in Sinhalese that the Mahavihara commentators used as their source texts. The contents of these were held to date from the First Council, and so were viewed as authoritative unless contradicted by sutta or suttanuloma. > 4) The "personal opinion [of an acariya]" (attanomati), said to be the weakest source of authority"" > end quote byDhammanando > best > robert > [/quote] Often the Buddha has called his teaching Dhamma Vinaya. However, "Dhamma" here proves that Buddha taught Abhidhamma as much as it proves that he taught Prajnaparamita or some other Mahayana text. If we accept the story of Buddha teaching Abhidhamma in the heavens because it was too advanced for people on Earth to understand, then why not believe that he taught advanced suttas which were recovered by Nagarjuna? In both cases it is archeologically un-provable and early suttas don't mentions this. With metta, Alex #100535 From: "christine_forsyth" Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 6:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" > > Often the Buddha has called his teaching Dhamma Vinaya. However, "Dhamma" here proves that Buddha taught Abhidhamma as much as it proves that he taught Prajnaparamita or some other Mahayana text. > > > If we accept the story of Buddha teaching Abhidhamma in the heavens because it was too advanced for people on Earth to understand, then why not believe that he taught advanced suttas which were recovered by Nagarjuna? In both cases it is archeologically un-provable and early suttas don't mentions this. > > > > With metta, > > Alex > Hello Alex, Interesting point. That is exactly the understanding which Mahayana and Vajrayana disciples have - that the Buddha made the First Turning of the Wheel and taught a simplified version of Dhamma because people were not able to understand what he could teach to 'those of higher understanding' after the Second and Third Turnings of the Wheel. metta Chris #100536 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 9:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta scottduncan2 Dear Chris and Alex, Regarding: C: "Interesting point...that the Buddha made the First Turning of the Wheel and taught a simplified version of Dhamma because people were not able to understand what he could teach to 'those of higher understanding' after the Second and Third Turnings of the Wheel." Scott: Loathe as I am to weigh in here, the point, as clarified in Atthasaslinii, is nothing to do with 'higher understanding', it was a question of the physics of temporality; more to do with a plane suitable to a lengthy discourse than anything: "How wide is the Law, contemplated for seven nights and seven days? It is infinite and immeasurable. This, of course, refers to the discourse as thought out in the mind. And it should not be said that the Teacher was unable to finish preaching in a hundred or a thousand or ten thousand years the Law mentally worked out in a week. For subsequently the Tathaagata, seated in the midst of the gods from the ten thousand world-systems, at the Pa.ndukambala stone at the foot of the Paaricchattaka tree in Tavati.msa, making his mother the chief witness, taught the Law, passing from one theme to another in a hundred, a thousand, and a hundred thousand divisions. And infinite and immeasurable was the discourse, which went on ceaselessly for three months with the velocity of a waterfall, or streams of water issuing from waterpots turned mouth downwards..." But really, why bring all this up? Think what you will. Sincerely, Scott. #100537 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta truth_aerator Hello Scott and Chris, As I understand the story, the Buddha had to teach the Tavatisma Devas for 3 month strait. Something having to do that Abhidhamma had to be taught in that fashion for it to be understood. Scott, as you've said "... more to do with a plane suitable to a lengthy discourse than anything" Question: What relevence is it for us who cannot sit in one position for 3 month and hear entire Abh in one session (for it to be understood)? With best wishes, Alex #100538 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 1:21 am Subject: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ---------- <. . .> KH: > > But, to my troubled mind, an act that takes place over several moments is pannatti. It can't affect anything. Ultimately, there is never an act of dana. > > S: > I was wrong about the threads being related, but since we're here again... What about kamma that brings result? There is only one cetana at a time, one cetana that brings a result, but it has to have 'accumulated', it takes the force of many, many cetanas or that particular one to be kamma patha. Perhaps we can say the same about dana? It is alobha cetasika, but one alobha cetasika without the support of many other cittas, couldn't bring a result. Again, it is the cetana which is the kamma patha, but kamma is so complicated, isn't it? ------------ Complicated or not, that is the sort of explanation I was expecting to hear at the KK meeting. But then it became really complicated. :-) ----------------- >There also has to be a gift, doesn't there? And a sentient being to receive the gift? It's all so confusing. Why can't those things be written off as mere 'stories' that satipatthana students don't need to concern themselves with? ... S: Satipatthana doesn't mean no thinking about concepts as we all always stress! Still a conventional world, even though we know it's only that... ------------------ Does satipatthana involve being able to identify instances of dana and the other kamma-pathas? Or does it only involve right understanding of alobha and dosa etc? To identify any particular kamma-patha would be to directly know various things that occurred over various moments. (Was the gift a suitable one? was it willingly offered? was it accepted? . . .) (Was the sentient being who was killed actually present? was there an intention to kill that particular being? did he die as a result? . . ) This reminds me of the monk in the Satipatthana Sutta who was "walking." What he actually knew with right understanding was a dhamma-arammana that appeared at the time. He didn't necessarily know that he was walking as distinct from running or hopping etc., did he? Ken H PS: I'm going to change that subject heading. Whether it's true or not! :-) PPS: Sorry about all the untidy broken lines in my recent posts. They don't appear that way in the Edit and Preview pages. #100539 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 2:35 am Subject: Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam sukinderpal Hi Sarah, Ken H, ======== > K:>I am still flabbergasted. It was such a shock - at that elite gathering > of no-controllers - to be told there could be no dana without an *act* > of dana. I certainly wouldn't suggest that all of you were wrong and I, > alone, was right. But, to my troubled mind, an act that takes place > over several moments is pannatti. It can't affect anything. Ultimately, > there is never an act of dana. > ... > S: I was wrong about the threads being related, but since we're here again... > > What about kamma that brings result? There is only one cetana at a time, one cetana that brings a result, but it has to have 'accumulated', it takes the force of many, many cetanas or that particular one to be kamma patha. Perhaps we can say the same about dana? It is alobha cetasika, but one alobha cetasika without the support of many other cittas, couldn't bring a result. Again, it is the cetana which is the kamma patha, but kamma is so complicated, isn't it? > ... > >There also has to be a gift, doesn't there? And a sentient being to > receive the gift? It's all so confusing. Why can't those things be > written off as mere 'stories' that satipatthana students don't need to > concern themselves with? > ... > S: Satipatthana doesn't mean no thinking about concepts as we all always stress! Still a conventional world, even though we know it's only that... > > Anyway, do persevere with the qus on this... and your own theories which you're keeping quiet about....Let's drag Sukin into this one as well... > What do you think about this, Sukin? Suk: I don't know. Ken seems to have considered all possibilities. And I judge my inability to accept his position as being possibly due to my own lack of understanding. As he says, dana involves the concepts of being and gift to be given, and my reasoning is that these are invariably tied to an act of dana, and distinguishes it from other instances of kusala, all of these having alobha cetasika as one of the roots. My conclusion is that one moment of alobha rooted citta alone can't qualify as an act dana. And why dismiss the `situation' as mere stories, if dana can only ever be distinguished by those conventional descriptions? It may be that we need not tie dana so bindingly to it being known as an instance of citta arisen to perform a particular function? In other words, Satipatthana arising to know that particular citta is one thing, but there are whole set of other dhammas related to this which can and must be known too? Yes, other forms of kusala have their own `stories', such as metta has the lovingness, or karuna, the suffering of another being. And Ken I believe would dismiss these too as being irrelevant when it comes to Satipatthana. Here I'll refer to your pointing out that `thinking' invariably is involved and argue that knowing the thinking as it is, does not mean that particular concepts are not tied to particular dhammas. This being the case, then why focus on one isolated citta as if knowing it, dana could then one day arise without `thinking' in terms of beings and gifts? Am I just being irrelevant? I certainly do feel quite muddle headed…. Perhaps your argument about kamma patha, which does seem relevant, will help to change Ken's mind, but then it's not what I needed to consider in order that I believe what I do about dana. :-/ So I think I'll just sit back and read you two discussing the topic. ;-) Metta, Sukin #100540 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Sep 7, 2009 11:47 pm Subject: Forest Bliss... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Remote & Solitary is Forest Bliss! The forest bhikkhu pays much attention to the experience of forest. Thereby he enters deeper yet unattained depths of concentration. By living remote he is not distracted by any unsuitable phenomena. He is free from anxiety and stress. He abandons attachment to life. He enjoys a taste of the bliss of seclusion, and the silenced peace. He lives secluded and apart. Calm and remote abodes delight his heart. The hermit that in woods can dwell alone, may gain the bliss as well. Whose savour is beyond the price of royal bliss even in any paradise. So let the forest delight a wise man for his precious dwelling's site. Sources: MN 121, AN III 343, Vism I 73 ALONE The one who sits and lives solitary, & walks alone finds great delight in the silence of the forest... Dhammapada story 305 SUCH ONE The One wearing only 3 robes, who is thin with veins showing, who meditates alone in the forest, such one is a Holy One... Dhammapada story 395 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Forest_Bliss.htm Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Forest Bliss... #100541 From: "philofillet" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 3:52 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma philofillet Hi Lukas > L: Yes, I am saavaka, the hearer. I dont care for anything else. One moment of siila in my life, and it's really enought to me. > If there will be more, that's good, if not that's also good. > siila is not mine, calm is not mine. there is not even one thing that is mine. Ph: I'm going to be leaving until January, but since you have been kind enough to say that I help you in some way or other, I'd like to encourage you to reflect on the above a bit more. Are you sure you aren't getting confused with the famous statement by Ven. Dhammadaro "one moment of sati in a lifetime, wealthy man?" "One moment of sati, wealthy man" is also quite dubious (I feel now,I used to love it) but the notion of being content with one moment of sila goes against the Buddha's teaching to lay followers. There is a constant repeating of his encouragement to reflect on our deeds in a way that will help to condition rebirth in human or heavenly realms. That's the way he taught, Lukas, believe me, I speak from having spent the last few months studying Dhammapada in English and Pali with a volume that has quite a lot of the ancient commentary. (Wish I had the full commentary, mind you, but my volume contains more tha, for example, the B.Bodhi anthologies.) I don't think the even the most devoted "detachment from the beginning" students of A.Sujin would agree that one moment of sila is acceptable as a Buddhist teaching, but since Nina, Sarah and others have not intervened to help you there, I guess I'm wrong. It's a very dangerous and misleading idea. Basic Buddhist morality, whether attachment is involved or not, will help to condition behaviour that will improve the likelihood of not being sweapt back into the sea of countless lifetimes in the lower realms, the re-emergence from which to the human realm is as likely as a blind sea turtle rising up through the hole in a yoke floating on the great seas. We are to strive diligently for human or heavenly rebirth. That's the way it's taught in Dhammapada, again and again. The notion that this is just one lifetime in countless aeons so there is no need to make an effort to fulfill it unless that effort just happens to arise as the result of listening to the teachings is a teaching that is only taught by A. Sujin, so please be careful! If I ever come across the just-one-lifetime-in-countless-aeons-so-don't-worry teaching elsewhere, I will come back to apologize! Have a good autumn, Lukas, and please listen not only to A.Sujin and her students (who do indeed offer an interesting and very valuable perspective) but study, for example, the Dhammapada and commentary and ask yourself honestly if it A. Sujin is truly in line with the way the Buddha taught to householders who are more often than not dealing with gross kilesa that are dealt with in ways that are very different from the way panna eradicates medium and subtle kilesa. Metta, Phil p.s another thing I have come to realize is that the teaching that it is the kamma from any number of past lifetimes that can condition the rebirth citta, so it is pointless to be attached to the deeds of this one lifetime is something that *if* taught by the Buddha or even by the commentaries is certainly not often taught, because I have never come across it anywhere execpt in discussions here and in the recorded walks with A. Sujin. It makes sense when you think about it, but I personally have never come across it so I personally have to think that A. Sujin *might* be incorrect in stressing it or even mentioning it to lay followers of the Buddha. What I do come across again and again is an emphasis on the deeds of this one lifetime. That's how the Buddha taught to householders, believe me. p.p.s I also think that you are a faith driven person so write some of the things that you do out of a kind of faith that drives you so it might not be bad, especially since one of the helpful aspects of sakkaya ditthi, which we all have whether we talk about anatta all the time or not, is that there is a clinging to being a good person, so even if you say "one moment of sila is enough" your attachments have you seeking sila. That's the way they work, fortunately, for people like us who are responsive to the Dhamma. So you'll be O.K! #100542 From: "philofillet" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 3:24 am Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! philofillet Hi Scott and Jon and all Scott, I'm going to be disappearing for awhile, but I'd like to leave this exchange with you. I saw it several months ago and has stuck with me since as an example of how we *all* make our own interpretations whether we are following the commentaries or not. You placed an interpretation on this Dhammapada verse that does not appear anywhere in the commentary (at least not in the rather extensive passages on the versse that I have in my edition.) The flowers in question are wholesome deeds, conventionally termed, not javanas. But Jon has accepted it as such based on your opinion and will now reflect on it as such when he comes across the verse. Even though it is not the correct interpretation, technically speaking. However, I think this is not that bad. I think you were going out on your own, making an interpretation that might not be technically correct, but will help you develop faith in the teachings as a whole (whether having faith that is rooted with Abhidhamma in the forefront is a good idea or not is a different topic) and is indeed in line with the way javanas are taught by the commentators elsewhere. So I think it is good and necessary and inevitable to forge out on our own and make our own interpretations as you have have here. Others tend to do that more with suttas, and I'd agree that if we are doing so with zero appreciation of Abhidhamma and the commentaries (stress on zero) we are more likely than not to go wrong. But it is a necessary result of approaching the Dhamma steeped in lobha, views, fear, desire for results, which we all are in my opinion whether we are honest with ourselves about it or not. The exchange in question: > > Scott: My opinion - I'd suggest that this 'person' is developed pa~n~naa; the 'eye'sees more and more clearly as bhaavanaa-maaya-pa~n~naa proceeds. Pa~n~naa knows kusala and then kusala develops. The garland is the string of the seven javana moments with pa~n~naa - the seven flowers,the kusala-citta-viithi - which are the kammically advantageous dhammaa. > And Jon wrote: > Very nice! I'll remember that explanation with gratitude when I next come across this verse. Ph: Yes Jon, you will remember it but will you remember that it is Scott's interpretation and not backed up by the texts in question? I wonder how often we carry around interpretations that come from friends at DSG and elsewhere rather than from the texts? It's probably not a terribly bad thing to have happen, part of the benefits of Dhamma friendship, and panna will develop to sort out what it correct and what is misleading...I guess! And hope! I will leave you with that and look forward to checking in with you again in January. Metta, Phil #100543 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 6:07 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma szmicio Dear Phil, I still think you should stay longer on DSG. I am waiting to discuss with you the girl and cafe terrace example, you gave me. Is it possible to do this today, before you leave? I also want to respond you in different way. Like prepere some visudhimagga quotes on what you wrote. My best wishes Lukas #100544 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 7:32 am Subject: Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta ptaus1 Hi Alex, Thanks for supplying the Pali and other interesting bits in this regard. Best wishes pt > Vinaya IV, 344 = PTS book 4 page 344 (Pacitiya Bhikkhunivibhango) #100545 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta ptaus1 Hi Robert, Thanks for this reference. I hope it's okay that I quoted this reply in the dhamma wheel discussion on authenticity of abhidhamma, as well as some other bits from your earlier posts on this list as well as from your forum - there are some really good threads there. Best wishes pt > Dear Lucas > Sometimes the terms 'sutta and vinaya', sutta means Dhamma as whole > Venerable Dhammando explained: > > Dhammanado: They are: > > "1) The "well-said" (sutta), defined as the whole of the Tipi?aka. > 2) The "conforming to the well-said" (suttanuloma), meaning utterances than can be shown to be Dhamma or Vinaya by using either of the two sets of four great standards. > 3) The "disquisition on meaning", "commentary" (atthakatha), meaning the works preserved in Sinhalese that the Mahavihara commentators used as their source texts. The contents of these were held to date from the First Council, and so were viewed as authoritative unless contradicted by sutta or suttanuloma. > 4) The "personal opinion [of an acariya]" (attanomati), said to be the weakest source of authority"" > end quote byDhammanando > best > robert #100546 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 8:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > Hi Robert, > > Thanks for this reference. I hope it's okay that I quoted this reply in the dhamma wheel discussion on authenticity of abhidhamma, as well as some other bits from your earlier posts on this list as well as from your forum - there are some really good threads there. > > Best wishes > pt Of course Pt, any quotes that help please use. Great posts from you on dsg recently Robert #100547 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 8:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta ptaus1 Hi all, It seems one of the main reasons (if not the main one) that some doubt authenticity of abhidhamma (and commentaries) is lack of evidence it was recited at the first council. The main quote in that regard is from Vinaya account of the first council - I quote here from Rhys Davids' translation of Vinaya Cullavagga XI, which is available here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe20/sbe20119.htm "Thus did the venerable Mahâ Kassapa question the venerable Ânanda as to the occasion of the Sâmañña-phala, and as to the individual concerned. And in like manner did he question him through the five Nikâyas, and as he was successively asked, so did Ânanda make reply." So, it only mentions 5 nikayas, not abhidhamma pitaka. Now, I know that: 1. in Atthasalini, abhidhamma pitaka is classified as khuddaka nikaya, but that doesn't help because commentary is considered later by some, so ideally they would want to see a reference in the vinaya itself. 2. There are multiple accounts in atthsalini that place abhidhamma recitation at the time of the first council. 3. There is also an account of the first council in vinaya atthakatha that Sarah mentions in post 9464, but again the problem is that it's a commentary account. 4. There are the tibetan and chinese source - this is from Robert's forum, where he's quoting Sarah quoting the introduction from the above vinaya atthakatha (sorry can't find the post number on dsg, as I assume Robert copied it from here somewhere), though these also appear to be later sources. So, does anyone know of any other accounts that would testify that abdhidhamma (and even atthakathas) were recited at the first council, because this is what people are looking for in order to believe in authenticity of abhidhamma and the commentaries? Thanks for your help pt #100548 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 8:21 am Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. kenhowardau Hi Sukin, I am fascinated to know more about your 600 music downloads, but how can we keep it on-topic? Better not push our luck! :-) ------------ <. . .> S: > With your overpowering influence however, ;-) now I factor in kamma, the kind which caused people of the Buddha's time to come to hear him, that this must be due to having heard the Dhamma in previous lives if not also meeting previous Buddha's. As a result I'm leaning closer to your position now. ;-) ------------- Yes, well, the conversation and quibbling over words did take us on some unexpected side issues. It all began with something I had always assumed to be part of the accepted "DSG party line." I had always assumed that you and others were saying, 'Whatever the present object of consciousness is, we (as Dhamma students) should understand it in terms of satipatthana.' Mike N argued that the Buddha "taught" such things as oral hygiene. But that doesn't change anything with regard to our present arammana, does it? The same applies to sutta examples of people who were not ready for satipatthana and were simply taught dana sila and samatha. That doesn't change anything for us. Or does it? Ken H #100549 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Dear Mike (nz), --- On Thu, 3/9/09, mikenz66 wrote: >J: The 17 moments of the thought process were not explicated as such until well after the time of the Buddha (I've seen it said as late as the Abhidhammattha Sangaha) M:>This seems to me to be a rather crucial point. I have only studied secondary texts such as the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and modern works, though I've browsed parts of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. It would be very interesting to clarify to what extent this mind-moment analysis is in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and/or the classical commentaries. .... S: Firstly, I'd like to warmly welcome you to DSG! I assume you come from New Zealand? Would you care to introduce yourself a little - how you came to be interested in the Dhamma.... I think you'll find that all the details can be found in different parts of the sutta pitaka (esp. the Patisambhidamagga), the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the classical commentaries. In the Ab. Sangaha, it is extracted and put into a clear, coherent summary. Again, in 'Useful Posts' (in the files) under sections such as 'Abhidhamma-origins', 'Processes of cittas' and so on, I think all the information can be found. I'm happy to help further, but I've just got back from a long trip and have a neck problem which is not serious, but making it difficult for me to sit at the computer for more than a few minutes at a time, so anything else will be a little later. Just let me know if you can't find it relatively easily. Nina or Scott or someone else may be able to also help in the meantime. Metta Sarah p.s We have another Mike N here, an old member. What is the initial of your surname, so we can use that after the Mike? ======= #100550 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 8:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Phil), --- On Thu, 3/9/09, scottduncan2 wrote: >Scott: 17 thought moments: Impermanence is much deeper than noticing cars need oil changes once in awhile. ... S: :-) You're in good form! ... Scott: I remember what the Buddha said to Aananda, who thought he had a lock on D.O. I don't agree that the suttas can be 'sorted out easily.' .... S: :-) Metta Sarah ====== #100551 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 9:05 am Subject: Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta jonoabb Hi Mike nz Welcome to the list from me. (100472) > > The 17 moments of the thought process were not explicated as such until well after the time of the Buddha (I've seen it said as late as the Abhidhammattha Sangaha) > > This seems to me to be a rather crucial point. I have only studied secondary texts such as the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and modern works, though I've browsed parts of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. It would be very interesting to clarify to what extent this mind-moment analysis is in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and/or the classical commentaries. > =============== Much of the detail we discuss here does not appear in the suttas but is found only in the Abhidhamma or the commentaries, sometimes the later commentaries. The Appendix to Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" is a useful place to get information regarding the provenance of particular terms. This appendix is the author's "Attempt at a chronological fixing of terms not found, or not found in this form or meaning, in the oldest parts of the Sutta Pitaka". On the question of the thought process, he has the following: ******************************** citta-vīthi: As well as all terms for the various functions within the processes of conseiousness, such as āvajjana-citta, sampaticchana, santīraṇa, votthapana, javana, tadārammaṇa, bhavaṅga, cuti: none of these terms is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, in Pts.M. Even in the Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and bhavaṅga are twice or thrice briefly mentioned. The stages, however, must have been more or less known. Cf. e.g Patth: ''Cakkhu-vinnāṇam taṃ saṃpayuttakā ca dhammā (= cetasikā) mano-dhātuyā (performing the sampaṭicchana-function), taṃ saṃpayuttakānan ca dhammānaṃ (cetasikānani) anantara-paccayena paccayo. Mano-dhātu ... manovinnāṇa-dhātuyā (performing the santīraṇa and votthapana function).... Purimā purimā kusalā dhammā (javanā) pacchimānaṃ pacchimānaṃ kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ (javanacittānaṃ) anantara-paccayena paccayo... avyākatānaṃ dhammānaṃ (tadārammaṇa- and bhavaṅga-cittānaṃ....)." ******************************** Hope this is helpful. Jon #100552 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 9:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Please comment on this description of the path jonoabb Hi pt (100506) > I apologise as well for the late response. In fact, perhaps we can agree that there is no need for apologies when replying late - I'm just as happy when I receive replies from you, Sarah, Nina and others, regardless whether it's the next day, or week, month, etc. We're all busy with life, so it's understandable. > =============== Fine with me ;-)) =============== > The thing is that I'm trying to explain some things to other people who know nothing about Buddhism, and for them, as it was for me in the beginning, this question seems very important. And if I tell them that the beginning is inconceivable, and that they should more care about the present moment than engage into intellectual excercises - well they take offence, just like I did before when somebody would dismiss my thoughts outright - because there's attachment to these thoughts obviously. But it's impossible to explain about attahcment to thoughts to beginners. > > So I was hoping for some sort of a provisional answer which allows a beginner to make some intellectual sense of the accumulations approach and therefore forget about it temporary so that there can be more awareness of the present moment. =============== There is never going to be an answer that satisfies everyone ;-)). And as you found for yourself, initial aversion is not necessarily an obstacle to later acceptance. We can only do our best to put it in a way that is helpful for the other person. By the way, do not underestimate the possibility of some beginners appreciating mention of attachment to thinking. It's amazing how different people are on this kind of thing. =============== > The same applies to the questions like: > > -"well if it's all just dhammas, and no control behind them, then how are we any different than robots?!" Of course, I understand (or at least think I do) that this is again thinking and even falling into annihilationist view, but you can't say that to a beginner or that his thinking is pointless at the moment. =============== The "no control" issue is not just a problem for beginners; it's a constant source of disagreement here even among long-standing members. There's no short and/or easy way of putting it. As I see it, the key here is the difference between the conventional meaning of control and control in the absolute sense. =============== > -"if there are both good and bad accumualtions, how can good accumulations ever prevail, since there's so much more bad ones?!" =============== It helps I think to acknowledge that good accumulations in fact do prevail from time to time, even though they are "in the minority" so to speak. Whenever they prevail, there is the possibility of further development. =============== > Anyway, if you or anyone else has responses to these 3 questions, which you found to work with beginners, please let me know. =============== Sorry, no fixed responses ;-)) But if in the position of being asked to explain, just do the best one can with (hopefully) kusala citta. Jon #100553 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 9:08 am Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! jonoabb Hi Phil (100542) > Ph: Yes Jon, you will remember it but will you remember that it is Scott's interpretation and not backed up by the texts in question? I wonder how often we carry around interpretations that come from friends at DSG and elsewhere rather than from the texts? It's probably not a terribly bad thing to have happen, part of the benefits of Dhamma friendship, and panna will develop to sort out what it correct and what is misleading...I guess! And hope! > =============== Thanks for your concern about my being led astray by Scott's personal interpretation ;-)) I agree that it would not be useful to confuse such an interpretation with the textual one. I personally wouldn't see the likelihood of that happening. But in any event, as long as one keeps in touch with good dhamma friends, the chances are that any such budding confusion would quickly get sorted out. So thanks for sorting me out on this one ;-)) Jon #100554 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 9:15 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 4, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Seeing is a type of consciousness; it is a reality which has its own characteristic. It is not the body, it is not tangible object; it is not materiality. It is an element which experiences visible object. Seeing is seeing for everyone, it does not belong to any race or nationality. Also animals see. Seeing is the same no matter what you call it. Thus, it is an absolute truth for everyone, it is an absolute or ultimate reality. We do not have to use any names for realities; they have their own function, their own characteristic which can be directly experienced. Seeing sees visible object, whether it is your seeing or my seeing. Seeing cannot touch visible object, it can only see it. Can you touch visible object? Do you see me? You can only see visible object. After seeing there is thinking of different shapes and forms and there is memory of different things and people. A person cannot be seen, there can only be thinking about a person. Thinking is another type of reality, arising at another moment. We can gradually develop more understanding of realities and thus there will be more light in our life. Tuna: There are different types of people in the world. Some are of a good nature, such as my mother. She is an excellent woman who has loving care for everybody and tries to do the best for all people she meets. Whereas some people do not want to help anybody, they always think of themselves. It seems that different people have different characters from birth. How do you explain that? Acharn: People are different, they do not have wholesome moments all the time. There are wholesome realities and unwholesome realities. Kindness and compassion are wholesome, cruelty, hatred and jealousy are unwholesome. There are for everybody conditions for wholesome moments as well as for unwholesome moments. The arising of wholesomeness or unwholesomeness depends on what has been accumulated. Some people have accumulated a great deal of beautiful qualities. For them, the environment or situation can condition more wholesomeness than for others who have not accumulated much wholesomeness. People who are in the same situation react differently, they have different thoughts. In order to be a good person you have to develop wholesomeness, you have to train yourself. Just as when you want to be skillful in cooking you have to train yourself so that one day you will be a good cook. ******* Nina. #100555 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 11:01 am Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! scottduncan2 Dear Phil, I know you are reading this. ;-) Regarding: P: "...an example of how we *all* make our own interpretations whether we are following the commentaries or not. You placed an interpretation on this Dhammapada verse that does not appear anywhere in the commentary (at least not in the rather extensive passages on the verse that I have in my edition.) The flowers in question are wholesome deeds, conventionally termed, not javanas..." Scott: Before you go, could you provide the commentarial passage to which you refer? (That way I can consider it until your return.) P: "...I think you were going out on your own, making an interpretation that might not be technically correct, but will help you develop faith in the teachings as a whole (whether having faith that is rooted with Abhidhamma in the forefront is a good idea or not is a different topic)it is a necessary result of approaching the Dhamma steeped in lobha, views, fear, desire for results, which we all are in my opinion whether we are honest with ourselves about it or not..." Scott: I'll look forward to discussing these topics with you upon your re-arising 'in January,' however often that comes between now and January. Sincerely, Scott. #100556 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 11:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "...Question: What relevence is it for us who cannot sit in one position for 3 month and hear entire Abh in one session (for it to be understood)?" Scott: I don't know, Alex. What relevance does it have for you? I'm guessing that you think this has no relevance for you - even though to guess this this may be going out on a limb. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #100557 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 3:01 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma szmicio Dear Howard > Lukas: The sadha is not the religious belive as you said. > of course tiratana is right.but also the ability to appreciate the > Text is some kind of sadha. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: I'm not sure that appreciation is a kind of saddha, but I > know what you mean. It is close. > ------------------------------------------ L: Abhidhammattha sangaha states on faith: This is not the intelectual Dhamma. Hearing this passage can be a condition to yonisomanasikara and applayin the Dhamma. Always hearing Saddhamma is wonderful. The Saddhama is a proximate cause of faith. and faith can clear everything. My friend ask me once. What you did in your life that you are like that. You not drink and this staff. I said nothing. Why should I. I just met saddhamma in my life. hearing saddhamma can be a condition to eradict all the defilments. ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ > Were there is no sadha to the Text, it can be like no sadha to the > Teacher. Buddha so many times was saying: that first we have to listen. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard:I don't deny either of these. I simply say that saddha in a > teaching has to have a basis other than it is tradition, or it > appeals to me, or "This is my teacher." As the Kalama Sutta > expresses, it needs to be a matter of corroborating experience. > ----------------------------------------- L: I understand you. yes there are things in tradition that are not good like bhikkhus with celural phones or some kind of belives or some kinds of practices that are becuse of tradition that see it in it's own way. But we have wonderful oportunity to hear saddhamma. This is so wonderful. Not only the Suttas and Abhidhamma but also a commentaries. When i am speaking about Tradition i mean only that. Theras had so much patience and sympathy for us. I am so greatful that I have this oportunity to hear the Dhamma. You mentioned Kalama Sutta, but if you hear Dhamma in more detailed(saddhama) way with open heart(yoniso manasikara or dhammanudhammapatipada) then you feel that there is no need to be very strict to particular Suttas. They are all just reminders for the proper time and for the people with particular accumulations. I heard Theras saying that if there is no understanding(they're doubts??) than we should listen more. And then hearing more there can be understanding or bhavana. Is there really any Self? Or just explanation in short and explanation in more detalied way. Isnt it like the hearing Dhamma that condition right understanding. Look at kalamas, they were very not sure about everything. They doubt this different Dhammas they've got. And hearing the saddhamma from the buddha, they start to understand. But that is only hearing The Dhamma that condition right understanding or bhavana and not Self that is doing that. We speak a lot about bhavana and a lot of commentaries. But what about Suttas. Arent they a good reminder. like u said ehipassiko, come and see. The people come, sit in front of Buddha, and hearing the right dhamma they start to understand. This is all what Alex wrote form some Sutta: SN.55.5 Sappurisasa.msevo(meeting the right friend) saddhammassavana. m(hearing the true Dhamma) yonisomanasikaaro,(wise attention) dhammaanudhammappa.tipatti. (and have a faith to what had been said) Is there really any Self. Why Buddha reminds us all about siila in so many discurses? Isnt it because he knew that hearing right Dhamma is the condition for right development? ---------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- > L: yes, of course. But why they dont understand? because they dont have > sadha. > ----------------------------------------------- > No, not at all! They DO have saddha, but it is often a harmful faith, > ungrounded in experience. It is blind faith. > ---------------------------------------------- L: so i think its not sadha then. its just akusala, the blind faith. -------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- > They may well have faith and even be well read in Dhamma, but lack the > initiative and energy to apply what they read. And, again, the Buddha did > *not*, in my opinion teach people to merely study and think about what he > taught. > ------------------------------------------------ L: Yes, but study the teaching is not merely intelectual activity. hearing the right dhamma is one of the conditions for sotapatimagga. ---------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------- > L: of course, come and see :D . So no need to sit. > ---------------------------------------------- > LOLOL! The Buddha taught actual "conventional" practice to cultivate > the mind. > --------------------------------------------- L: If we speak just about Suttas now. Where is the Sutta that is saying about sitting? :> Buddha didnt lead the meditations centers ;> he just wandered throught the country and cultivate friendship, teaching poeple the Dhamma, that they can develop right understanding. ---------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------- > L: Yes I also hope so. you're right that we cant neglect siila. Buddha has > so many faith in kusala, so many faith in siila, so we also should > cultivate it. > ----------------------------------------------- > Yes, study the teachings and summaries of the teachings, and cultivate > sila and equanimity and understanding and relinquishment. > -------------------------------------------------- L: I really appreciate Alex post to me about siila. It's such a good reminder to me. When we have wise friends then there is development. Sigalovada Sutta is always a good remider on right friendship and siila. we are only saavakas. My best wishes Lukas #100558 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 10:08 pm Subject: The Supreme Triumph! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Daily Words of the Buddha: The Blessed Buddha once said: Sabbadanam dhammadanam jinati Sabbarasam dhammaraso jinati Sabbaratim dhammarati jinati Tanhakkhayo sabbadukkham jinati. The Supreme Triumph: The gift of Dhamma surpasses all other presents. The taste of Dhamma excels every other flavour. The delight of Dhamma exceeds any other happiness. Eradication of craving conquers all and any suffering... Have a really nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net The Supreme Triumph! #100559 From: "ksheri3" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 11:06 pm Subject: Re: Remastered! ksheri3 Hi Lucas, SPLENDID! Great CAPTURE of the conflicting realities: How does a "transmigration" even have a potential of existing from NOTHING. You got the thought! Meditate on it! Now this is my bias and predjudice but doesn't the meditation lead directly to YOGACHARA? I fully admit that it is more than possible for the medittation to lead to other outcomes but, to me, in my pair of shoes, it has always led me to the realization that there is a MIND-ONLY SCHOOL OF REALITY and that this school, this hallucination, is THE ONLY REASON FOR REALITY. What better of a school other than the Yogachara, IS THERE, that can relate and speak to me from my upbringing of excessive use of LSD, and mushrooms, etc? I am dealing with this unfathomable reality that exists where THE MIND is the "creator deity" and I've found that Karma is nothing more THAN, POTENTIALLY, than just an electrical connection between the individual's MIND and it's electrical activity which manifested this or that EMOTION but those exact same specific characteristics probalby existed many times before and many centuries before the single practictioner had them; therefore it is not the practictioner's karma, it is any person's karma, YET THAT PREVIOUSLY MANIFESTED KARMA IS OUT THERE, SOMEWHERE, IN THE ETHOS OR LOGOS OR WHERE EVER, and it's just waiting for a simlar connection to come along where it can get rid of it's force i.e. LIGHTNING. I look forward to returning to the DSG here and catching up over the few weeks that I've been "honing my bone" or sharpening my sword. ;) lol The post you gave me is OF INTEREST! and I figure that as I come down from this "exhaltation" or "bliss" I'll be working on that. HOLD IT! > The ignorance is the cause of transmigration and in the patticcasamupada it's more clear. The transmigration is also only the moment of arising and falling away. colette: I don't know how you can actually say what the or any "transmigration" is and where it came from, but I am open to discovery and to enlighten myself to THAT WHICH I ALREADY KNOW AND ACCEPT AS MY IGNORANCE. Maybe by reading the sutta, then I'll be able to better understand your position here. I shy away from taking such an explicit stand as defining where the 'transmigration' came from and what the 'transmigration' is, SINCE I HAVE YET TO HAVE HAD THE PLEASURE OF ABIDING IN SUCH A STATE/CONDITION as prescribed here. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Colette and Scott > > > Regarding the sixth question: > > > > c: "WHICH CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG, THE CRIME OR THE POLICE OFFICER, GOOD OR EVIL?" > > > > Scott: I don't think there is a beginning to DELUSION. > > L: Well, the Blessed One also said about the begining of transmigration: > > > "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."> <...> #100560 From: "ksheri3" Date: Tue Sep 8, 2009 11:24 pm Subject: Re: Remastered! ksheri3 INTERESTING ASPECT: TRANSMIGRATION being generated by IGNORANCE! You know, this takes the entire mystic persona away from the concept TRANSMIGRATION when it is posed as a RESULTANT PHENOMENA of IGNORANCE. Wow, think of the possibilities! I have been working the Kaballah now for more than 25 years, almost 30 years, and WOW, DO YOU REALIZE WHAT THIS DOES TO THE JEWISH CONCEPT OF "REPAIRING THE FACE OF GOD", WHEN THE CONCEPT OF TRANSMIGRATION IS APPLIED IN A SUBORDINATE CONTEXT TO IGNORANCE? YOU ARE SPLENDID! YOU WORK WELL WITH ME AND WHERE I AM AT! THANK YOU! I AM RIGHT WITH THIS SUTTA AT THIS SECOND AND HAVE BEEN AT THIS SUTTA FOR THE LAST FEW DAYS. Don't worry, I'm working on it and I'm workin on a lot of other things as well. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Colette and Scott > > > Regarding the sixth question: > > > > c: "WHICH CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG, THE CRIME OR THE POLICE OFFICER, GOOD OR EVIL?" > > > > Scott: I don't think there is a beginning to DELUSION. > > L: Well, the Blessed One also said about the begining of transmigration: > > > "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."> > > The whole Danda Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn15/sn15.009.than.html <...> #100561 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 6:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Please comment on this description of the path ptaus1 Hi Jon and Lukas, Thanks for your replies on this. Best wishes pt > Sorry, no fixed responses ;-)) But if in the position of being asked to explain, just do the best one can with (hopefully) kusala citta. > > Jon #100562 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 6:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Replying in detail to your post 100485 on samatha: > Sarah: Yes, there has to be right understanding for the development of samatha bhavana and the understanding of what is kusala and what is akusala. Samatha means calm and my point was that if it's not kusala calm, but some other 'fake calm', such as feeling relaxed with lobha in a tranquil setting, then it's not samatha practice. pt: Agreed. > Sarah: Focussing on 'energy channels' is not samatha bhavana. pt: Here I think we first need to define what does “focussing†mean, to make sure we’re on the same page. In my understanding, it refers to several cetasikas operating at the same time, in particular, concentration, attention and perception, as well as vitakka and vicara. Therefore, whether “focussing†is kusala or akusala would depend on the jati of the citta, i.e. whether it is accompanied by kusala or akusla roots. So, as far as I understand, it would not depend on the object â€" whether it’s breath, or kasina, or “energy-channel†â€" all these are just concepts that can become an object of a citta, and thus qualify as an object of samatha bhavana, if the citta is kusala. > Sarah: At any moment of kusala now, such as at a moment of dana or metta, the citta is calm. So all kusala is accompanied by samatha. As you point out, it is understanding which will know only. pt: Okay. > Sarah: [butting in, do you see "energy channel" as included in any of the given objects of samatha? pt: Out of the 40 traditionally given, I’m not sure, but I think it could be a concept used for air kasina, sort of like a concept of the breath is used. Both are wind rupas, but it’s the concept of them that is used as the object of samatha. Kind of like when the white of the bone, or teeth, or anywhere else where white is seen, can be used as the white kasina object. > Sarah: How would it condition calm, as opposed to concentration with lobha?] pt: You mean that the object is supposed to condition calm? I didn’t realize that an object could condition calm, I though it has to do with roots of the citta â€" i.e. if there’s understanding present as a root at the moment, then calm will also accompany the citta regardless of what’s the object. > Sarah: Yes, all dhammas are anatta, so it'll just depend on conditions what is the object at any given moment. What is the purpose of specially attending to kasina, breath or channel-concept in the above case? pt: This seems a bit like an unfair question - because it presupposes a doer with a “special†purpose, i.e. lobha and dosa. As you said, it’s up to conditions what will the object be at the moment. There’s no doer. Therefore, depending on accumulations, the attention would tend to focus more on texts, or breath, music, TV, kasina, etc. So, it’s not about the purpose but whether the citta is kusala or not. I mean, regardless of whether there’s focussing on texts, or kasina, or energy channel, there will be kusala and akusala cittas arising, irrespective of the object. > Sarah: I think that there are conditions to attend to what we like to attend to - whether it be the channel-concept, what we see on the TV or anything else. Now all that's very natural, lobha is very natural and to be known. However, if we think that such attending is kusala, it's a condition for more delusion. As you suggest, the thinking (or attending) can be known for what it is. The lobha can also be known and so too, the delusion if it arises. It can all be quite subtle. pt: Agreed. > Sarah: What you're suggesting, I think, is that if there's no obvious greed or aversion present when focussing on any object, then the citta must be kusala. pt: Well, if there’s no lobha and dosa, there can still be moha, so that’s not quite right. There would have to be understanding at the moment â€" only then there’s no moha, so citta isn’t akusala. > Sarah: I would see it more the other way round - if there's not any dana, sila or bhavana, then it's akusala. pt: Well, what I was describing was my understanding of “bhavana†â€" there’s understanding of the concept being the object at the moment â€" so no identification with it through moha, and there’s no lobha and dosa (trying to force the attention to stay on the object, or being bored by it), meaning that adosa and alobha are present with understanding (panna) at that moment. Is this any different to what you understand as “bhavanaâ€? > Sarah: Lobha and moha can so very easily be taken for kusala. What is the purpose of selecting and focussing on an object of meditation if not a desire for a result, such as calm or concentration? pt: This is again a loaded question as before, which presupposes a doer, so my reply is as before - there’s no doer, it’s all down to accumulations what object attention goes to and focusses on at the moment. Whatever it is (texts, breath, etc), it’s the presence of panna that will make the citta kusala or not, and both kinds will inevitably arise regardless of how we call the outward activity conventionally â€" studying, hearing a dhamma talk, jhana development, being kind, eating apples, formal meditation, watching TV, being generous, etc, as each of these activities will consist of many, many kusala and akusala moments (not counting vipaka and kiriya moments). Best wishes pt #100563 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 7:02 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 4, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Tuna: Sometimes one meets people who do not want to be good, they don't care about this. Acharn: You can help them to understand the benefit of being wholesome so that they will be kind to others. Then, they will also have more happy moments instead of unhappy moments. I think that people like pleasant results but that they do not know the right causes which lead to such results. If you tell them that good and bad results come from the appropriate causes they will have more understanding. This understanding will be a condition for them to accumulate wholesomeness, which is the cause of pleasant results. If you are friendly to others they will be friendly to you. If you do not like other people they will not like you. Religion is only a term which stands for what one believes in. But if we don't label anything we can understand realities as they are. We can understand realities which are true for everybody, no matter what religion he professes, no matter what nationality he is. Seeing is true for everybody, it is just a moment of experiencing visible object. When hearing arises there is no seeing anymore. Hearing is just a moment of experiencing sound; it does not know anything about visible object. When there are conditions for hearing one cannot help but hear. Seeing, hearing and the other realities are beyond control, they arise because of conditions and then they fall away, they are completely gone. Nobody can make them arise and nobody can make them stay on after they have arisen. Thus, life goes on from moment to moment, until death. Life is only one moment of experiencing an object and then it is gone, forever. ******* Nina. #100564 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 7:09 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (34-36) and commentary, part 1. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 34 RDs [ 4.34 ] Four knots, to wit, the body-knots of covetousness, of malevolence, of inverted judgment as to rule and ritual, and of the inclination to dogmatize. (Cattaaro ganthaa : abhijjhaa kaayagantho, byaapaado kaayagantho, siilabbataparaamaaso kaayagantho, ida.msaccaabhiniveso kaayagantho.) ------------ N: The term bodily knot, kaayagantho is used, because it ties the mental body and the physical body to the cycle, according to the commentary. The subco explains that because of non-attainment it obstructs escape, it does not liberate, it does not unbind. As to the inclination to dogmatize, one clings to the idea of 'this is the truth' , it is adherence to wrong view, it is vain imagining (moghama~n~na). The subco adds: such as eternity-belief. N: So long as enlightenment has not been attained, there is no way to escape form the cycle of birth and death. The sotaapanna is sure to eventually reach arahatship, which means the end to rebirth. ------------ Co: Ganthanavasena ganthaa. Va.t.tasmi.m naamakaaya~nceva ruupakaaya~nca ganthati bandhati palibundhatiiti kaayagantho.Ida.msaccaabhinivesoti idameva sacca.m, moghama~n~nanti eva.m pavatto di.t.thaabhiniveso. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - sutta 35: Walshe DN 33.1.11(35) 'Four clingings (upaadaanaani): to sensuality, to views (di.t.thi), to rules and ritual (siilabbata-paaraamaasa), to ego-belief (attavaada). (Cattaari upaadaanaani : kaamupaadaana.m [kaamuupaadaana.m (sii. pii.) evamitaresupi], di.t.thupaadaana.m, siilabbatupaadaana.m, attavaadupaadaana.m.) ---------- N: There are sense-desire clinging, [false-] view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging and self-doctrine clinging. The latter three kinds are forms of clinging with wrong view. Text Vis. XVII, 246: Sense-desire clinging, however, is taught first among them because of the breadth of its objective field and because of its obviousness. For it has a broad objective field because it is associated with the eight kinds of consciousness. ------- N: Sense-desire clinging arises with all eight cittas rooted in lobha: four are accompanied by pleasant feeling, four by indifferent feeling. Four arise with wrong view, four without wrong view. Four are unprompted, four are prompted. One may cling with sense-desire accompanied by eternity view, taking the objects of clinging for permanent. Or one may cling to them with annihilation view, believing that they will be annihilated since one not see that they arise because of conditions. As to the three kinds of clinging that are clinging to wrong views, clinging to wrong practice and clinging to 'self doctrine', these arise with the four types of lobha-muulacittas accompanied by wrong view. They have a narrow objective field since these only pertain to wrong view. ------- Text Vis.: [False-] view clinging comes next to the [sense-desire clinging]... And that is then divided in two as rite-an-ritual clinging and self-doctrine clinging. And of these two, rite-and- ritual clinging is taught first, being gross, because it can be recognized on seeing [it in the forms of] ox practice and dog practice. And self-doctrine clinging is taught last because of its subtlety. This is the 'order of teaching'. ------------------------- The co to the Sangiitisutta elaborates on upaadaana: it is grasping, seizing. As to sensuality, kaama is here raga, desire, according to the commentary. N: Kaama has two meanings: it can refer to vatthu-kaama, the objects of sense-desire, as well as to kilesa-kaama, the defilement of sense- desire. In this context it refers to sense-desire. The subco explains that clinging grasps the object firmly. ------- N: One of the links of the Dependent Origination is: craving, tanhaa, conditions upaadaana. Upaadaana is stronger than tanhaa. We read in the Visuddhimagga ChXVII, 242: Vis. : But some have said: Craving (tanhaa) is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief's stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached, like the thief's grasping his objective. ------- N: The Tiika to the Vis. explains that craving, tanhaa, as aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, is like excitement or trembling (paritassana). Clinging is firm grasping. ---------- N: As to clinging to rules and ritual (siilabbata-paaraamaasa), one believes that there is purity through this according to the commentary. It is the grasping of ceremonial observances, siilaavata. Someone may believe that he through ascetical practices will be able to eradicate defilements. We read in Vis. Vis XVI, 63: "The perfect ones behave like lions. When they make suffering cease and when they teach the the cessation of suffering, they deal with the cause, not the fruit. But the sectarians behave like dogs. When they make suffering cease and when they teach the cessation of suffering, by teaching devotion to self-mortification etc., they deal with the fruit not the cause." ---------- As to clinging to ego-belief, one declares that there is a self, according to the subcommentary. One adheres to this. -------- N: Because of the wrong view of self we may thoroughly mislead ourselves, also with regard to the development of insight. Then there is no way to eradicate defilements and reach the end of the cycle. We read in the Vis. XX, 83: there is no removal of false view in one who takes it thus "I see with insight, my insight"..there is removal of false view in one who takes it thus "only formations see formations with insight, comprehend, define, discern and delimit them." ----------- Pali co: Upaadaanaaniiti aadaanaggaha.naani. Kaamoti raago, soyeva gaha.na.t.thena upaadaananti kaamupaadaana.m. Di.t.thiiti micchaadi.t.thi, saapi gaha.na.t.thena upaadaananti di.t.thupaadaana.m. Iminaa suddhiiti eva.m siilavataana.m gaha.na.m siilabbatupaadaana.m. Attaati etena vadati ceva upaadiyati caati attavaadupaadaana.m. ********* (to be continued) Nina. #100565 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 7:19 am Subject: Sitting on the terrace, nice girls all around szmicio Dear Phil, Howard, Alex and friends. That's the passage from your massage you send me off-list(by accident of course), Phil: L: All those kinds of reflections are possible and they often or sometimes happen in my life. When I read Abhidhamma and peek sidways drinking in girls that's akusala. (Like in the plane sitting next to nice girl). I know Phil that's akusala. But please consider i am not so developed as you are in kusala development. What I did said about "one moment od siila in a lifetime", that was very sincere. I had only a few moments of siila in life. I dont know when there will be more, but for sure your very serious reminders like "develop kusala now, dont lose your time" are so helpful. I can see your short wonderful reminder works, and has the power to condition siila. But that is only the Dhamma that was heard, or association with right friend that really matters. No control up and down, no where all around. The second matter is that you're saying about some kind of reflections seeing this girls that we not only not help ourselfes but also disturb them. And another kind of reflections you mentioned. I think that's all Dhamma. No matter what we think about that. But who can make those kind of reflections to arise? I cannot. But I can listen to your reminders and then there can be a condition for such kind of development. The Dhamma is such deep. It consist all kinds of development. Of course even not hearing Dhamma, we can have a lot of kusala accumulatons and this kind of refelctions can arise. That's a few words from me. Remember the story of Maha Tissa Thera? My best wishes Lukas #100566 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 8:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (6) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Tue, 1/9/09, upasaka@... wrote: #100438 >H:As for concepts, they are not realities, IMO. Thinking is, but not concepts. ... S: Exactly so. No suggestion of concepts as realities. ... >H:And concepts, merely imagined and actually non-existent, cannot be truthfully said to be unconditioned. Nothing at all can be truthfully predicated of fictions, for fictions do not exist. .... S: Fair enough. As Sukin said before, maybe better just to say they are 'not conditioned' and leave it at that. This is what "asankhata" means, as I understand. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - H:> A bit picky, I suppose: But as soon as we say "They are not P ...", where P is some predicate, if meant literally, we are in error. In fact, even to say "Concepts don't exist" is an error unless, as usual, it is intended only as an abbreviation for "There are no such things as concepts." To describe concepts as having or lacking an actual property [forget about "existence" - it is special] is already to imply existence. One could just as well say, for example, that concepts are impermanent as unconditioned, for to be impermanent means only to not be permanent (as to be unconditioned means only to be not conditioned) ! The truth is, that it is an error to say that concepts are permanent as much as it is an error to say "they" are impermanent. To assert that "something" is permanent is to assert, in fact, not only that it exists but that it continues in existence. What should be said with regard to any fiction, F, concepts included, is that "except as a figure of speech, there are no F's" No property, or lack of property, should be ascribed to what does not exist. (Imagine someone saying "The Self is neither nama nor rupa," as some Vedantists might say! A Buddhist would properly reply "You are talking about nothing! There is no Self!" ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---- S: Yes, a bit picky! It reminds me of the 'no self'/'not self' debates. I'm not sure it takes us any closer to understanding the dhammas that appear now:-). If I say that concepts lack characteristics or are unconditioned, I assure you that I'm not implying existence. I agree that it cannot be said that concepts are permanent or impermanent and I haven't said this. I agree with the good point you make in your last sentence and your logic. As always, we have to understand what someone's meaning is behind the words and this applies to the texts and teachings of the Buddha as well. As we know the entire Tipitaka can and is read with an idea of Self. Concepts don't exist! There are no such things as concepts! Say it as you will:-)) Metta Sarah ======== #100567 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 8:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and Sarah sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- On Tue, 1/9/09, han tun wrote: >> Sarah: I'd also say that the four foundations of mindfulness is Anataa vaada! >Han: Interesting statement! Can you further elaborate on this, please? ... S: The four foundations of mindfulness, the development of satipa.t.thaana is about understanding any reality appearing now. This is anattaa vaada. Realities, dhammas, can only be understood by understanding that they are anatta. Likewise, anatta can only be understood by understanding these realities as they are - namas and rupas, elements, not belonging to anyone or in anyone's control. ... >I am considering the following in support of your statement. >The following passage is repeated again and again in Mahaasatipa. t.thaana Sutta at the end of each chapter. While expanding on this passage, the Burmese Sayadaws stress the abandoning of the underlying ta.nhaa and di.t.thi. And I take it that the abandoning of the di.t.thi component is anattaa vaada. ... S: Yes, through the understanding of dhammas as anatta, gradually di.t.thi is eradicated first and eventually, all ta.nhaa. Without anattaa vaada, this is impossible. Sometimes people talk about 'being in the present moment' or 'understanding anatta', but it's not just a general theory, but the understanding of dhammas as elaborated in the Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Sutta that have to be known as anatta. ... >Atthi kaayoti vaa panassa sati paccupa.t.thitaa hoti, yaavadeva ~naa.na-mattaaya pa.tissati-mattaaya . Anissito ca viharati, na ca ki~nci loke upaadiyati. >The mindfulness that 'there is a body' is simply established in him, to the extent necessary for bare knowledge and mindfulness. He abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world. ... S: In other words, the rupas that are taken for the body. To add to this from the commentary (transl by Ven Soma): " 'Atthi kaayoti vaa panassa sati paccupa.t.thitaa hoti'= 'Or, indeed, his mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.' ' Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no 'I', nothing that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kaayoti ca attii, na satto, na puggalo, na itthii, na puriso, nattaa, naattaniya.m naaha.m, na mama, na koci, na kassaciiti eva.m assa sati paccupa.t.thitaa hoti.] " 'Yaavadeva' = 'To the extent necessary.' It denotes purpose. "This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose. What is the purpose for which it is established? " '~Naa.namattaaya patissatimattaaya' = 'For just knowledge and remembrance.' That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and further measure of knowledge and mindfulness [aparaapara.m uttaruttari ~naa.napamaa.natthaaya ceva satipamaa.natthaayaca]. For the increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning. " 'Anissito ca viharati' = 'And he lives independent.' He lives emancipated from dependence on craving and wrong views. " 'Na ca ki~nci loke upaadiyati'= 'And he clings to naught in the world.' In regard to no visible shape....or consciousness, does he think: this is my sould; or this belongs to my soul." **** S: I like this reminder: "This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose. What is the purpose for which it is established? " '~Naa.namattaaya patissatimattaaya' = 'For just knowledge and remembrance.' " In other words, the purpose of developing satipatthana is not for any benefit for oneself or others. Metta Sarah ======= #100568 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 9:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and Sarah hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your excellent elabortion. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! Respectfully, Han > S: The four foundations of mindfulness, the development of > satipa.t.thaana is about understanding any reality appearing now. > This is anattaa vaada. Realities, dhammas, can only be understood by > understanding that they are anatta. Likewise, anatta can only be > understood by understanding these realities as they are - namas and > rupas, elements, not belonging to anyone or in anyone's control. > > > > > > > #100569 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 10:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta jonoabb Hi Chris (100497) > Surprisingly - after all these years of thinking it was, and having visited Sankasia in India, I am now leaning towards the fact that the Abhidhamma was a later teaching by disciples generations after the Buddha -and that there seems to be no real evidence to the contrary. =============== Regardless of any (tentative) conclusion one may come to on this question, there remains the need to "interpret" what is recorded in the suttas, in order to elicit the message being conveyed. To give a simple example, there are a very large number of suttas that contain reference to either dhammas or khandhas or ayatanas or dhatus, but little in the way of explanation of what these terms actually mean or how they relate to each other. Much knowledge is assumed on the part of the listener. Jon #100570 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 10:16 am Subject: Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . jonoabb Hi KenH Hope you don't mind me coming in here. We had some discussion on this in Bangkok last time. (100538) > Does satipatthana involve being able to identify instances of dana and > the other kamma-pathas? Or does it only involve right understanding of > alobha and dosa etc? > =============== To my understanding, satipatthana does not (necessarily) involve being able to identify instances of dana and the other kamma-pathas. What it involves is direct understanding of the nature of a presently arising dhamma, and in particular its characteristic as anicca, dukkha and anatta. =============== > To identify any particular kamma-patha would be to directly know various > things that occurred over various moments. (Was the gift a suitable one? > was it willingly offered? was it accepted? . . .) (Was the sentient > being who was killed actually present? was there an intention to kill > that particular being? did he die as a result? . . ) =============== I think this kind of knowledge would be the province of Buddhas and their chief disciples. =============== > This reminds me of the monk in the Satipatthana Sutta who was "walking." > What he actually knew with right understanding was a dhamma-arammana > that appeared at the time. He didn't necessarily know that he was > walking as distinct from running or hopping etc., did he? =============== I don't see why the monk could not know both (a) the nature of a presently arising dhamma that is normally taken for (an aspect of) the conventional activity of walking, and (b) that he was walking as distinct from running or hopping, etc. (if he didn't know the latter, how could he observe sila?). Hoping I haven't added to the complication. Jon #100571 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 10:56 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (50) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. We now start with Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ Intimation through Body and Speech Citta is one of the four factors that produces ruupa. We look different when we laugh, when we cry, when we are angry or when we are generous. Then we can notice that citta produces ruupa. Bodily intimation (kaayavi~n~natti) and speech intimation (vacívi~n~natti) are two kinds of ruupa, originated by citta. They are not produced by the other three factors that can produce ruupa, by kamma, temperature or nutrition. As to bodily intimation, this is a specific way of expression by ruupas of the body that display our intentions, be they wholesome or unwholesome. Our intentions can be expressed by way of movement of the body, of the limbs, facial movement or gestures. The intention expressed through bodily intimation can be understood by others, even by animals. Bodily intimation itself is rúpa, it does not know anything. We read in the "Dhammasanga.nii" (§ 636): "What is that ruupa which is bodily intimation (kaayavi~n~natti)? That tension, that intentness, that state of making the body tense, in response to a thought, whether good or bad, or indeterminate (kiriyacitta), on the part of one who advances, or recedes, or fixes the gaze, or glances around, or retracts an arm, or stretches it forth - the intimation, the making known, the state of having made known - this is that ruupa which constitutes bodily intimation." ------------------------------ with metta, Han #100572 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 3:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Chris > > (100497) > > Surprisingly - after all these years of thinking it was, and having visited Sankasia in India, I am now leaning towards the fact that the Abhidhamma was a later teaching by disciples generations after the Buddha -and that there seems to be no real evidence to the contrary. > =============== > > Regardless of any (tentative) conclusion one may come to on this question, there remains the need to "interpret" what is recorded in the suttas, in order to elicit the message being conveyed. > > To give a simple example, there are a very large number of suttas that contain reference to either dhammas or khandhas or ayatanas or dhatus, but little in the way of explanation of what these terms actually mean or how they relate to each other. Much knowledge is assumed on the part of the listener. > > Jon > Dear Jon, all, But how do we know that interpretations by later commentators is fully correct? Even in the time of the Buddha there were monks who have misunderstood Buddha's teaching. At that time the Buddha could say that such and such monk has misunderstood me. But without the Buddha, how do we know which commentator is right and which is wrong? Furthermore, maybe part of the problem is our tendency to over complicate things that should not be overcomplicated. When things are overcomplicated doubts and alternative explanations may arise. With metta, Alex #100573 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 6:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta nilovg Dear Alex, Op 9-sep-2009, om 17:19 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > But how do we know that interpretations by later commentators is > fully correct? Even in the time of the Buddha there were monks who > have misunderstood Buddha's teaching. At that time the Buddha could > say that such and such monk has misunderstood me. But without the > Buddha, how do we know which commentator is right and which is wrong? > > Furthermore, maybe part of the problem is our tendency to over > complicate things that should not be overcomplicated. When things > are overcomplicated doubts and alternative explanations may arise. ------- N: Alex, you make good points for consideration here. We have to read and compare different texts, and see where they agree, but that is not all. Through the development of satipa.t.thaana the truth can be verified. We learn little by little: seeing does not see a person, it sees only what is visible. We learn: attachment or generosity are cittas arising because of conditions and nobody can make them arise. Attachment or generosity are not persons, they are conditioned cittas. Let us examine the part of the co. to the satipa.t.thaana sutta Sarah just quoted: <'Na ca ki~nci loke upaadiyati'= 'And he clings to naught in the world.' In regard to no visible shape....or consciousness, does he think: this is my soul; or this belongs to my soul." **** S: I like this reminder: "This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose. What is the purpose for which it is established? " '~Naa.namattaaya patissatimattaaya' = 'For just knowledge and remembrance.' " In other words, the purpose of developing satipatthana is not for any benefit for oneself or others.> (end quote) N: We read: ~Naa.namattaaya patissatimattaaya' = 'For just knowledge and remembrance.' " Instead of remembrance I would translate patissati by mindfulness. Is there anything here that is in contradiction to the Tipi.taka? Best is reading the commentaries and check for oneself whether or not they are helpful to understand this very moment. Examine all the time, from day to day, the anattaavaada, this is the most important. _____ Nina. #100574 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 7:47 pm Subject: learning. Reading again & again (repetition condition) truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 9-sep-2009, om 17:19 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > But how do we know that interpretations by later commentators is > > fully correct? Even in the time of the Buddha there were monks who > > have misunderstood Buddha's teaching. At that time the Buddha could > > say that such and such monk has misunderstood me. But without the > > Buddha, how do we know which commentator is right and which is wrong? > > > > Furthermore, maybe part of the problem is our tendency to over > > complicate things that should not be overcomplicated. When things > > are overcomplicated doubts and alternative explanations may arise. > ------- > N: Alex, you make good points for consideration here. We have to read > and compare different texts, and see where they agree, but that is > not all. Through the development of satipa.t.thaana the truth can be > verified. We learn little by little: seeing does not see a person, it > sees only what is visible. We learn: attachment or generosity are > cittas arising because of conditions and nobody can make them arise. > Attachment or generosity are not persons, they are conditioned cittas. > Let us examine the part of the co. to the satipa.t.thaana sutta Sarah > just quoted: > <'Na ca ki~nci loke upaadiyati'= 'And he clings to naught in the > world.' In regard to no visible shape....or consciousness, does he > think: this is my soul; or this belongs to my soul." > Dear Nina, all, Thank you for your reply. What are the conditions for learning? Does repeated reading of certain passages over and over (asevana paccaya - repetition condition) again increase the conditions for wholesome states? With metta, Alex #100575 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 4:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] learning. Reading again & again (repetition condition) upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/9/2009 3:48:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Nina, all, Thank you for your reply. What are the conditions for learning? Does repeated reading of certain passages over and over (asevana paccaya - repetition condition) again increase the conditions for wholesome states? -------------------------------------------------- Alex, as you know, I believe that the Buddha taught far more to practice than just reading, listening, and contemplating, and this cultivating practice prepares the mind, making it ready, fertile, and receptive. However, I would add that I would reply in the affirmative to this question you pose, even as regards people with little special training. It is my direct experience to a degree, and it is my strong belief, that certain passages recording the wisdom of people of degrees of attainment, the Buddha most of all, may speak to someone in a way that seems almost tailored for him/her, and the frequent reading and contemplating such "turning words," as the Zen expression goes, can be deeply transformational. ------------------------------------------------ With metta, Alex ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100576 From: "ksheri3" Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 6:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! ksheri3 Hi Scott, Who, me, have to stand in line to file a GRIEVANCE through such an outdated organization as the Federal Bureaugh of Investigations, FBI. My word? I speak with the Talkin' Heads: What Have you done? Pishaw, that was one of my best PARLEY'S when I was the youngest of the young, mearly 20 years old and so on, back in the early 1980s, AND I was hitch-hiking across the states due to the fact that I had entered a very exclusive club/gang/organization/whatever and I had no 'sponsor', no previous accredation upon which these robots could justify my presence, and so, they saw me then as they see me now, as a virus or an invading pestillence which they must exterminate as a means of maintaining their integrity and the illusion of their superiority. Below, what you wrote: How on earth could you speak of such things and speak of such things in a Theravadan forum? Everything you said is simply put in the MAZE which is called MADHYAMIKA OR MADHYAMAKA. You speak so easily of Shunyata that I can only consider that you are well versed in such elementary concepts. ROFL <....> GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU! let me go through the other messages you left me. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear colette, > > Regarding these questions (one at a time): > > c: "What makes something or/and someone FORBIDEN?" > > Scott: Gradual Sayings The Book of Nines v (5) The Powers: > > "...And what, monks, is the power of wisdom? > Such conditions as are bad and reckoned so; such as are good and reckoned so; such as are blameworthy and are reckoned so; such as are dark and reckoned so; such as are bright and reckoned so; such as are not to be sought after and reckoned so; such as are to be sought after and reckoned so; such as are not truly Ariyan and reckoned so; such as are truly Ariyan and reckoned so - all these things are clearly seen and by wisdom examined. And this, monks, is called the power of wisdom..." > > Scott: "Things and people." > "Wholesome and unwholesome." <...> #100577 From: "ksheri3" Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 6:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! ksheri3 Scott, darn, you went so well through the post but at the end you had to commit yourself to CRAVING: " I still seem to want to live " THUS Death does not equal Life. You are stuck in that damned Western philosophy of a Heaven and a Hell. "IMAGINE there's no heaven. I wonder if you can." John Lennon let go of that damned VALUE STRUCTURE and the only vindication that RUPA actually exists. RUPA HAS NO SVABHAVA. RUPA HAS NO ULTIMATE TRUTH. LET IT GO. NOW THAT'S A STRETCH AND WHAT A FEET OF DARING DO? No? It makes ya ponder that Swami that Robert Anton Wilson spoke of, on his website, The Guns & Dope Party, a few years ago, who developed an amulet to stop bullets and when he tested his amulet he died. That'll teach ya, no? Goodn to hear from you! Further on we go. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear colette, > > Regarding question number two: > > c: "IS IT WRONG TO NOT DESIRE THAT A KNIFE CUT YOUR THROAT?" > > Scott: Death and Craving, of course. Why? Death is easy 'THAT A KNIFE CUT YOUR THROAT' = Death. Craving takes a bit of a stretch. 'IS IT WRONG TO NOT DESIRE' = Is it right to desire. The double negative. And desire is craving. And craving leads to more of the same. > > So, is it wrong to wish to avoid death? Or, is it right to desire death? > > Gradual Sayings The Book of Fives ix (69) Disgust > > "Monks, these five things; when made become, made an increase in lead to complete disgust, dispassion, ending, calm, knowledge, enlightenment and to Nibbaana. What five? Monks, herein a monk abides in perceiving the foulness of the body; is conscious of the cloying of food; is conscious of distaste as to the world; perceives impermanence in all compounded things; and the thought of death is by him inwardly and well established..." > > Scott: Neither seeking nor fleeing from death. I still seem to want to live and would rather that the DETRACTORS and NAYSAYERS all go to hell (or at least just leave me alone) so maybe we're in the SAME BOAT. <...> #100578 From: "ksheri3" Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 6:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! ksheri3 Scott, ah, you speak of the Bourgeoisa family where Lucria Borgeosia had the pleasure of sleeping with her daddy and the Pope or is it that drug dealer named Pop-E that the Taliban currently farm and parent over? What child in American middle class suburbia does not dream of IMMORALITY AND IMMORAL ACTS each and every night? AFterall, when they wake up and are sent to the programming schedule at the manufacturing facility the CORPORATION DICTATES TO THEM WHAT MORALITY IS AND WHAT MORALITY IS NOT so they have no worry about what they dream, no? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear colette, > > Regarding the third question: > > c: "IS IT WRONG TO NOT GO TO BED DREAMING OF BEING MURDERED IN YOUR SLEAP?" > > Scott: Ah, a corollary. FEAR. RAGE. The double negative. Thoughts in the night. MN 54, 19, To Potaliya: > > "Householder, suppose a man dreamt about lovely parks, lovely groves, lovely meadows, and lovely lakes, and on waking he saw nothing of it. So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: 'Sensual pleasures have been compared to a dream by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great..." > > Scott: Is it right to dream of angels granting IMMORTALITY? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #100579 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 10:06 pm Subject: Re: learning. Reading again & again (repetition condition) scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "Does repeated reading of certain passages over and over (asevana paccaya - repetition condition) again increase the conditions for wholesome states?" Scott: This is not 'repetition condition.' Sincerely, Scott. #100580 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 10:21 pm Subject: Re: learning. Reading again & again (repetition condition) truth_aerator Dear Scott, >--- "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "Does repeated reading of certain passages over and over >(asevana paccaya - repetition condition) again increase the >conditions for wholesome states?" > > Scott: This is not 'repetition condition.' > > Sincerely, > > Scott. What is it then? What do you propose, Scott? With Metta, Alex #100581 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 10:55 pm Subject: Rise and Fall! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Open Air Dwelling Teaches Transience! The Blessed One often praised Tree Roots as dwelling place: Secluded in mind and guarded well by deities one lives there truly devoted without longing or urging for any city or house. And when the tender leaves are seen, first bright carmine red, then turning green, and finally to shades of yellow as they fall, one relinquishes mistaken belief in permanence once and for all. Tree roots is thus granted by him the One as a serene scene no wise and clever one should reject at all, for study of rise & fall! Vism I 74, Vin I 58, 96 <..> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #100582 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 9, 2009 11:54 pm Subject: Analytical study of 5 Khandhas, 12 bases & 18 elements truth_aerator Hello all, After reading many suttas (MN148, SN22.57, SN 35.197, Thig 3.2) where analysis into khandha, ayatana, dhatu was praised, I've decided to do a little investigation myself. So I've made a certain cut outs to study, which I wanted to share with anyone interested. Mind base (manayatana), = all (89) consciousness . cognizable base (dhammayatana) & cognizable element (dhamma dhatu) = 52 cetasika. Mind element (manodhatu), = 5 door advertance, 2 recipient citta. Mind consciousness element (manovinnana) = 76 consc. Sensation = vedana The all 12 bases (ayatana): The eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and cognizables. 18 Elements (dhatu): Above 12 bases + 6 consciousness. Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. The eye is attacked by external pleasant and unpleasant forms. It has no control over what external forms come within its domain. The eye-consciousness doesn't come from anywhere, nor does it go anywhere when it ceases. Past eye-consciousness no longer exists, future eye-consciousness does not yet exist, only the present eye-consciousness is. Dependently arisen process is inconstant, unsatisfactory, beyond any control and not-Self. Seeing the appearance is mental reality, eye-consciousness, which is consciousness aggregate, mind base and eye-consciousness element. Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral eye-sensation (cakkhu-vedana) is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable base and eye-consciousness element. Visible Object is material quality, the visible object element, which is matter aggregate, visible object base and visible object element. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. The ear is attacked by pleasant and unpleasant external sounds. It has no control over what external sounds come within its domain. The ear-consciousness doesn't come from anywhere, nor does it go anywhere when it ceases. Past ear-consciousness no longer exists, future ear-consciousness does not yet exist, only the present ear-consciousness is. Dependently arisen process is inconstant, unsatisfactory, beyond any control and not-Self. Hearing is mental reality, ear-consciousness, which is consciousness aggregate, mind base and ear-consciousness element. Objective sound itself refers to material quality, sound element, which is matter aggregate, sound base and sound element. Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral ear-sensation is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable base and ear-consciousness element. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. The nose is attacked by pleasant and unpleasant external odors. It has no control over what external odors come within its domain. The nose-consciousness doesn't come from anywhere, nor does it go anywhere when it ceases. Past nose-consciousness no longer exists, future nose-consciousness does not yet exist, only the present nose-consciousness is. Dependently arisen process is inconstant, unsatisfactory, beyond any control and not-Self. Smelling is mental reality, nose-consciousness, which is consciousness aggregate, mind base and nose-consciousness element. Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral nose-sensation is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable base and nose-consciousness element. A smell itself refers to material quality, smell element, which is matter aggregate, smell base and smell element. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. The tongue is attacked by pleasant and unpleasant external tastes. It has no control over what external tastes come within its domain. The tongue-consciousness doesn't come from anywhere, nor does it go anywhere when it ceases. Past tongue-consciousness no longer exists, future tongue-consciousness does not yet exist, only the present tongue-consciousness is. Dependently arisen process is inconstant, unsatisfactory, beyond any control and not-Self. Tasting of the taste is mental reality, tongue-consciousness, which is consciousness aggregate, mind base and tongue-consciousness element. Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral tongue-sensation is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable base and tongue-consciousness element. The taste object itself is material quality, earth-water-fire primary elements, which is matter aggregate, taste object base and taste object element. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. The body is attacked by pleasant and unpleasant tactile touches. It has no control over what external touches come within its domain. The tactile-consciousness doesn't come from anywhere, nor does it go anywhere when it ceases. Past tactile-consciousness no longer exists, future tactile -consciousness does not yet exist, only the present tactile-consciousness is. Dependently arisen process is inconstant, unsatisfactory, beyond any control and not-Self. The bodily cognition of roughness, softness, hardness or temperature is mental reality, body-consciousness, which is consciousness aggregate, mind base and body-consciousness element. Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral bodily sensation is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable base and body-consciousness element. A smooth or rough objective surface is material quality, earth element, which is matter aggregate, tangible object base and tangible object element. Dependent on the mind & mental objects there arises consciousness at the mind. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. The mind is attacked by pleasant and unpleasant cognizables. It has no control over what cognizables come within its domain. The mind-consciousness doesn't come from anywhere, nor does it go anywhere when it ceases. Past mind-consciousness no longer exists, future mind-consciousness does not yet exist, only the present mind-consciousness is. Dependently arisen process is inconstant, unsatisfactory, beyond any control and not-Self. Bare mental cognition itself is mental reality that is consciousness aggregate, mind base and mind element. Desire, dislike, greed or hate, Wisdom or ignorance is a mental reality that is mental formation aggregate, cognizable object base and cognizable object element. Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral mental sensation is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable object base and cognizable object element. ====================== Any suggestions, comments, critiques? I know that i've used a bit different scheme for primary elements of earth,water, fire & air. For example the source of taste, food contains not only hardness, cohesion & moisture, but temperature and it may be cooked or uncooked. With metta, Alex #100583 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:51 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 5, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 5. An Interview on Buddhism. What follows is an interview between Gabi, Alan and Nina, while travelling in Egypt together with Acharn Sujin. They interviewed each other while on the plane and this resulted in a combination of questions and answers from the three of them. Question: Is Buddhism different from other religions or philosophies? What is contained in the Buddhist teachings that you do not find anywhere else? Answer: Through Buddhism we learn to understand realities which can be directly experienced. Buddhism does not teach particular concepts we have to believe in, but it teaches the development of understanding of all realities within and around ourselves. Thus, we can verify the truth. Buddhism teaches the real cause of all that happens in our life, such as gain and loss, praise and blame, honour and dishonour, misery and well-being. We learn that pleasant and unpleasant experiences through the senses are the results of kamma, the good and bad deeds committed in the past. Everything that happens in our life is conditioned; through Buddhism we learn the truth of cause and effect. When we have more understanding of conditions, we can face difficult situations in life and develop more wholesome states of mind. Question: Do we have to have faith in what the Buddha taught in order to be a good Buddhist? Answer: We don't have to follow the Buddha's teachings blindly. We learn what he teaches and then we have to verify it ourselves; we have to consider it carefully. Through the practice we can prove that he taught the truth. Question: What are the benefits Buddhism can give me? Answer: When you know the truth of all realities of life there will be less sorrow for you. When you know that the adversities of life are only conditioned realities you will be able to cope with your problems. Question: I am quite happy; I have very few problems in my life. Many people can be happy without any religion. Why do I need Buddhism in order to find happiness? Answer: I am not satisfied with the explanations about life which are given by science, biology or chemistry. Through Buddhism I learn what life really is: one moment of experiencing an object. There is a moment of seeing and then thinking about it. There is a moment of hearing and then thinking about it. It is the same with smelling, tasting and touching. They are usually followed by many moments of thinking. When one finds out more about the realities of one's life one realizes one's faults and vices. On account of what one experiences through the sense-doors and the mind-door, many defilements arise. ******* Nina. #100584 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] comprehension of Nutriment edible food sarahprocter... Hi Alex (Nina & all), --- On Thu, 3/9/09, truth_aerator wrote: >> S: I'd be interested to know what your sources were for the commentary and "Abhidhammic analysis." ... A:>Sources: http://www.accessto insight.org/ lib/authors/ nyanaponika/ wheel105. html#t-26 ... S: Ah, thanks for telling me! Perhaps I missed it.... Why not post it in very small extracts from the beginning for review/discussion as Nina suggested? ... >For elements & bases analysis I used examples in dhatukatha (discourse on Elements Abh) book. ... S: Interesting! Are you studying the PTS translated Abhidhamma text itself? Which part were you using? Again, I look forward to further discussion on this. Any comments on my comments on your comments? Metta Sarah ======= #100585 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, #100465 --- On Wed, 2/9/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: Satipatthana doesn't mean no thinking about concepts as we all always stress! Still a conventional world, even though we know it's only that... ============ ========= ========= ======== H:> This is exactly what I was driving at a while back when speaking of aggregations of phenomena, and of dhammas "acting in concert." A collection of interrelated, mutually conditioning dhammas is only a collection, and is only conventionally viewed as an individual. The conditioning "action" is due to the dhammas, but their acting in concert is critical to that conditionality, and that acting in concert occurs across a period of time, with not all the dhammas co-occurring. There is a multiplicity of interrelated phenomena that, together, condition a multiplicity of dhammas, usually also interrelated in complex ways. Our "story" explanation of this is our usual talk of conventional objects and actions. The details are enormously complex, very, very far from simple, with both the everyday, conventional stories and partial-abhidhammic stories that ignore interrelationships and time both falling short, IMO. ... S: I appreciate your comments and feedback and you make several good points here. As I see it, the main thing here is to understand what the realities are and what is appearing at this moment - just one reality. Otherwise, again, we get lost in the stories about the realities instead of developing satipatthana. I agree with your comments, but I thought it was the meaning of khandha before which there was disagreement on? In any case, it's not a matter of terminology, but of realities that can be known more and more precisely. This, I believe, is the only way that the complex inter-relationships and dependent nature of such dhammas can be directly known. Metta Sarah ======= #100586 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Hi Lukas & Phil, --- On Thu, 3/9/09, philofillet wrote: > But on the other side look at Sarah! She's talking a lot and stil no matter what happens, whatever she says, she's calm or she understands. .... S: Ha, ha!! Feom the Migasala Sutta -AN, Bk of 6s,v.44 (PTS, Hare transl): "And the measurers measure them, saying: 'His stature (Dhammaa) is just this, the other’s just that; in what way is one wanting, one exalted?' And that measuring, Ananda, is to the measurers' harm and hurt for many a day." Later the Buddha says further to Ananda: "....But who save the Tathagata can judge this difference? Wherefore, Ananda, be no measurer of persons; measure not the measure of persons. Verily, Ananda, he digs a pit for himself who measures the measure of persons. I alone, Ananda, can measure their measure - or one like me." ***** Metta, Sarah ========= #100587 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- On Fri, 4/9/09, kenhowardau wrote: >Even so, if people would just listen, the words "there are realities; some mental, others physical" would be a good start. .... S: True! Better just share if we have a chance, but without any expectations of any listening or further considering. One moment at a time - we never know what the conditions will be later. Even if there's no considering now, can be even aeons later. ... ------------ --------- --- >S: > We mentioned Davadatta and I don't know whether he had had any pariyatti panna at all in his last life or not. What I am sure about was that it wasn't of the degree of sacca ~naana or firm theoretical/ intellectual understanding, otherwise he would not have gone so wrong. ------------ --------- ---- K:> I remember years ago we briefly discussed how the mere 'memory of words' will be lost when we die. But I've forgotten already: :-) how long can sacca ~naana last? Is it only in the current lifetime that it pervents us from going horribly wrong? Do we need direct (satipatthana) understanding if we are to have a similar protection in future lifetimes? ... S: Hmm, I *think* that if the pariyatti is really firm, it has to condition satipatthana sooner or later. I think the 'official' word is, however, that only a culasotapanna, who has attained to the second stage of insight and understood the conditioned nature of dhammas without any more doubt, is destined to become an ariyan. ------------ --------- --------- - >S: > The seeds were definitely planted to act as condition for panna of all degrees to develop later, however. ------------ --------- --------- - K:> I wonder how we are to understand the story of Devadatta. Could we say that: at some time (perhaps aeons in the past) he performed great kusala kamma, as a result of which he saw and heard the Buddha: and, even though didn't react well to that kusala-vipaka at the time, he will, aeons in the future, react well to it? ... S: Again, anything I say is likely to be speculative. Must have been great kusala kamma in the past and yes, the seeds were planted. I heard that it was on account of the great kusala involved at the time of his ordination that was to bring the great results in future by way of rebirth and becoming a Pacceka Buddha. (Of course, it was his abuse of the robes and actions towards the Buddha that resulted in rebirth in the lowest hell realms after his present life). ... >Or was it that, at the time of the vipaka, he did react *just well enough* in order to set the conditions for future greatness? ... S: Again, I think the kusala kamma and vipaka - combined with the accumulations to set the conditions... It's the same for all - so much kusala and akusala vipaka, kusala and akusala accumulations. It just depends on conditions what citta arises at any given time. ... >Or doesn't it matter? :-) ... S: Just if it helps us to understand this moment :-) Ok, my neck/shoulder is saying 'that's it' for today! Metta Sarah ===== #100588 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . nilovg Dear Ken H and Jon, Op 9-sep-2009, om 12:16 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > I don't see why the monk could not know both (a) the nature of a > presently arising dhamma that is normally taken for (an aspect of) > the conventional activity of walking, and (b) that he was walking > as distinct from running or hopping, etc. (if he didn't know the > latter, how could he observe sila?). -------- N: Ken, a monk is not allowed to run, hop, etc. He has to observe the rules of the Vinaya. It is necessary to also know concepts. We ordinary people usually think with akusala citta about concepts, but not necessarily so all the time. You probably know that arahats have four types of mahaakiriyacittas with pa~n~naa and four without pa~n~naa? Also arahats have cittas without satipatthaana, for example when greeting others. They think of persons also without pa~n~naa. But never with wrong view. ------ Nina. #100589 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Analytical study of 5 Khandhas, 12 bases & 18 elements nilovg Dear Alex, Op 10-sep-2009, om 1:54 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Mind base (manayatana), = all (89) consciousness . > cognizable base (dhammayatana) & cognizable element (dhamma dhatu) > = 52 cetasika. > Mind element (manodhatu), = 5 door advertance, 2 recipient citta. > Mind consciousness element (manovinnana) = 76 consc. > Sensation = vedana ------ N: As to cognizable base (dhammayatana) & cognizable element (dhamma dhatu) = 52 cetasika, in addiiton: subtle rupas, nibbaana. ------- Nina. #100590 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] learning. Reading again & again (repetition condition) nilovg Dear Alex, Op 9-sep-2009, om 21:47 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > What are the conditions for learning? > > Does repeated reading of certain passages over and over (asevana > paccaya - repetition condition) again increase the conditions for > wholesome states? ------ N: repetition-condition refers to the javanacittas within a process that are all of the same type. The first one conditions the second one and so on, except the last one, the seventh one. The conditions for learning: if one is inclined to study Dhamma this inclination is conditioned by past accumulations. Kusala kamma in the past is a condition to meet the good friend in Dhamma who can give great assistance in the development of right understanding. Mere reading the scriptures, even many times, is no guarantee for the development of pa~n~naa. One may read with wrong understanding. The first condition for enlightenment mentioned in the sutta is association with the right person. You speak about the increase of wholesome states, but the goal is understanding. Understanding can eradicate akusala. Kusala without any understanding does not lead to the goal, to freedom from the cycle. Nina. #100591 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta jonoabb Hi Alex (100572) > But how do we know that interpretations by later commentators is fully correct? Even in the time of the Buddha there were monks who have misunderstood Buddha's teaching. At that time the Buddha could say that such and such monk has misunderstood me. But without the Buddha, how do we know which commentator is right and which is wrong? > =============== As far as I know, there are no inconsistencies among the ancient commentators; so the question of which commentator is right and which is wrong doesn't arise. The only conflicts I know of are between the ancient commentators and modern-day followers. But in any event, things heard/read about are not to be taken as "gospel" but are to be considered along with everything else. =============== > Furthermore, maybe part of the problem is our tendency to over complicate things that should not be overcomplicated. When things are overcomplicated doubts and alternative explanations may arise. =============== I agree with you on the dangers of over-complication, but am not sure what you mean by that here. Would you mind explaining further, please. Thanks. Jon #100592 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:45 am Subject: Re: Analytical study of 5 Khandhas, 12 bases & 18 elements jonoabb Hi Alex (100582) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello all, > > After reading many suttas (MN148, SN22.57, SN 35.197, Thig 3.2) where analysis into khandha, ayatana, dhatu was praised, I've decided to do a little investigation myself. ... > ... > ====================== > > Any suggestions, comments, critiques? > > I know that i've used a bit different scheme for primary elements of earth,water, fire & air. For example the source of taste, food contains not only hardness, cohesion & moisture, but temperature and it may be cooked or uncooked. > =============== I'd be interested to know what you see as being the purpose or benefit of this kind of analysis. Do you find it helpful in some way? Jon #100593 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:21 am Subject: Re: learning. Reading again & again (repetition condition) scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "What is it then?..." Scott: Nina has answered. From the Abhidhamma Pi.taka: "12. Repetition Condition (i) Preceding faultless states are related to to subsequent faultless states by repetition condition. (ii) Preceding faulty states are related to subsequent faulty states by repetition condition. (iii) Preceding functional indeterminate states are related to subsequent functional indeterminate states by repetition condition," (Pa.t.thaana, PTS edition.) 12. Aasevanapaccayoti â€" purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m aasevanapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m aasevanapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa kiriyaabyaakataa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kiriyaabyaakataana.m dhammaana.m aasevanapaccayena paccayo. Scott: From U Narada, Conditional Relations, part 1 (p. 47): "12. Repetition Condition (aasevanna paccaya). Definition. The condition where a conditioning state relates by causing similar states, the conditioned states, to arise repeatedly after it ceases is known as repetition condition. Or, the condition where a conditioning state relates by habitually causing states similar to itself, the conditioned state, to arise after it ceases is known as repetition condition..." Scott: From CMA: "...Preceding javanas are a condition for subsequent javanas by way or repetition," (Abhidhammata Sangaha). "...purimaani javanaani pacchimaana.m javanaana.m aasavanavasena..." Sincerely, Scott. #100594 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (34-36) and commentary, part 2. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 36: Walshe DN 33.1.11(36) 'Four kinds of generation: from an egg, from a womb, from moisture, spontaneous rebirth (opapaatika-yoni). (Catasso yoniyo: a.n.dajayoni, jalaabujayoni, sa.msedajayoni, opapaatikayoni.) N: The Co adds to birth by way of moisture: lying in rotten fish etc. The subco: vermin originates from rotten fish. It adds: birth for those lying in mentrual fluid. We read in the Co. to the 'Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 246: . As to spontaneous birth, opapatika, the co states: having come as it were, with speed. In the case of birth from moisture, the development in youth is slow, whereas for those of spontaneous birth it is like the birth of sixteen year olds. N: The sense organs are fully developed for those of spontaneous birth. The co: for humans and earth devas there are four ways of birth. N: We read in the Vis. Ch XVII, 154: Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] learning. Reading again & again (repetition condition) truth_aerator Dear Nina (and all) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > The conditions for learning: if one is inclined to study Dhamma >this inclination is conditioned by past accumulations. So how can one increase inclination for study? What are those past accumulations that make one inclined to study the Dhamma? > Kusala kamma in the past is a condition to meet the good friend in >Dhamma who can give great assistance in the development of right >understanding. What exactly is that great assistance in the development of right understanding? > Mere reading the scriptures, even many times, is no guarantee for >the development of pa~n~naa. One may read with wrong understanding. How does one read with RIGHT understanding? >The > first condition for enlightenment mentioned in the sutta is > association with the right person. > You speak about the increase of wholesome states, but the goal is > understanding. Understanding can eradicate akusala. Kusala without > any understanding does not lead to the goal, to freedom from the cycle. > Nina. So what exactly does on practically do to increase understanding and eradicate the Akusala? Thank you very much, With metta, Alex #100596 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] learning. Reading again & again (repetition condition) nilovg Dear Alex, Op 10-sep-2009, om 17:29 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > N: > The conditions for learning: if one is inclined to study > Dhamma, this inclination is conditioned by past accumulations. > > A: So how can one increase inclination for study? What are those > past accumulations that make one inclined to study the Dhamma? --------- > N: There is no self who can cause the inclination for study, nor > make it increase. We may see the value of the understanding of the > Dhamma, how it can gradually change our attitude in life. Then we > are encouraged to develop further understanding. > We cannot know much about past accumulations, but we know that if > there is the inclination to study Dhamma today it does not arise > from nowhere, it has conditions stemming from the past, even past > lives. --------- > >N: Kusala kamma in the past is a condition to meet the good > friend in Dhamma who can give great assistance in the development > of right understanding. > > A:What exactly is that great assistance in the development of right > understanding? -------- N: He/she can help us to follow the right Path, not the wrong path one may erroneously take for the right Path. We keep on cinging to an idea of 'I can do it' and if this is not known we go the wrong way all the time. We can so easily delude ourselves. It should be known what the object of sati and pa~n~naa is: only one reality at a time as it appears through one of the six doorways. We should know what naama is, what ruupa is. Whatever reality appears at the present moment is only a dhamma, not a person or thing. ---------- > > >N: Mere reading the scriptures, even many times, is no guarantee > for >the development of pa~n~naa. One may read with wrong > understanding. > > A: How does one read with RIGHT understanding? ------- N: Not forgetting the purpose of the study: the eradication of ignorance and wrong view. Whatever we read points to anattaa. All the classifications of aayatanas, dhaatus, khandhas have one purpose: seeing that realities are anattaa. It is citta that sees now, not self. It is citta that thinks now, not self. We may understand this in theory, but it takes time to thoroughly see anattaness, to be convinced about this truth. -------- > > >N: ...Understanding can eradicate akusala. Kusala without > > any understanding does not lead to the goal, to freedom from the > cycle. > > A: So what exactly does one practically do to increase > understanding and eradicate the Akusala? ------ N: By listening to the Dhamma understanding develops, 'it' develops, not 'we' develop it. It does not help to have an idea of increasing understanding, that implies lobha. Understanding develops according to its own conditions, no self who could interfere. The more you understand this, the more pa~n~naa develops. ****** Nina. #100597 From: "ksheri3" Date: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:06 pm Subject: "No Time" by the Guess Who ksheri3 Good Morning Scott, I had this set up to just inject, on it's own, without a preface. HOWEVER, damn, I'm not gonna go through the maze of "hooking' this up and found that the monitors had the consciousness enough to drop this post in following my series of hallucinations. Well, if the subject line did not spoke your curiosity and my explicit definition of YOU, Scott, then maybe the defination will have an effect. Scott, you spoke of DESIRE quite frequently. Ah, this thing called DESIRE is such a subtle and almost imperceptible aspect yet it EXISTS. While we in the Western society can dispose of this thing called DESIRE so easily by refering to such people as Carl Gustav Jung and such drug dependents as Sigmund Frued, Zurich School and Vienna School, RESPECTIVELY, we find that desire is nothing more than a bauble or trinket. lets see if this Abhidharma has any juice left in it after all these millenias of running on "auto pilot". Take the concept of DESIRE and ALL OF I T'S DEFINITIONS. Look at it as a musseum curio on a shelf or even a product proudly displayed on a shelf for sale to any sucker. Here I have already established that "desire" IS and is "being" but since it exists, WELL THEN, it is no longer a Nama. Desire is a RUPA. RUPA, as we all know, is a substance which can be injected into the veins, the hydraulic system, of a human and thus satiate, satisfy, pacify, even EXHALT, the robotic recipient. The object is external. Is it really true that the subjectg, "individual", wants and needs this drug called "DESIRE" injected into their veins, hydraulic system, in order to function? LETS FIND OUT. Even if Desire has a single fragment of "Self Existence" in it THEN it will be congnizable and therefore we can easily rely upon the Abhidharma as a Jewel, HOWEVER, you, the individual, has to operate it since this is MY operation of the Abhidharma to fulfill MY desire for ENLIGHTENMENT. Actions speak louder than words, NO? toodels, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "Does repeated reading of certain passages over and over (asevana paccaya - repetition condition) again increase the conditions for wholesome states?" > > Scott: This is not 'repetition condition.' > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #100598 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:11 am Subject: Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . kenhowardau Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi KenH > > Hope you don't mind me coming in here. We had some discussion on this in Bangkok last time. > > (100538) > > Does satipatthana involve being able to identify instances of dana and > > the other kamma-pathas? Or does it only involve right understanding of > > alobha and dosa etc? > > =============== > > To my understanding, satipatthana does not (necessarily) involve being able to identify instances of dana and the other kamma-pathas. What it involves is direct understanding of the nature of a presently arising dhamma, and in particular its characteristic as anicca, dukkha and anatta. > --------- Thanks. That's probably what had me confused. ---------------------- KH: > To identify any particular kamma-patha would be to directly know various > things that occurred over various moments. (Was the gift a suitable one? > was it willingly offered? was it accepted? . . .) (Was the sentient > being who was killed actually present? was there an intention to kill > that particular being? did he die as a result? . . ) =============== J: > I think this kind of knowledge would be the province of Buddhas and their chief disciples. ---------------------- That's what I would have thought too. I wish the question had occurred to me sooner! Or have people been trying to tell me that all along? :-) ------------------------------- KH: > This reminds me of the monk in the Satipatthana Sutta who was "walking." > What he actually knew with right understanding was a dhamma-arammana > that appeared at the time. He didn't necessarily know that he was > walking as distinct from running or hopping etc., did he? =============== J: > I don't see why the monk could not know both (a) the nature of a presently arising dhamma that is normally taken for (an aspect of) the conventional activity of walking, and (b) that he was walking as distinct from running or hopping, etc. (if he didn't know the latter, how could he observe sila?). ------------------------------- I have no objection to a monk's knowing the difference between walking and running. :-) I was arguing that a monk did not *need* to know *for satipatthana purposes* which particular gait he was employing at the time. He didn't need to know if a presently nama or rupa was part of an act of walking (as distinct from part of an act of running or crawling etc.). Just as (as you have now confirmed) he didn't need to know if a presently arisen alobha cetasika was part of an act of dana. -------- J: > Hoping I haven't added to the complication. -------- No, you have been very helpful thank you. Ken H #100599 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:39 am Subject: Re: learning. Reading again & again (repetition condition) szmicio Dear Alex, > How does one read with RIGHT understanding? L: Bhante Dhammadharo said: My best wishes Lukas