#100800 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, Good to see you back after your DSG holiday! --- On Fri, 18/9/09, sprlrt wrote: >I would also like to add that the Dhamma/Tipitaka can be the object of the 11th akusala kāmāvacara citta (Dhs. 422), moha mųla (rooted in ignorance), upekkha sahagatam (accompanied by neutral feeling), vicikiccha sampayutta (associated with doubt); one of the many conceptual objects of that citta listed at Dhs. 1123 (as a fetter, to vipassana); and 1167 (as an hindrance, to samatha): "What is doubt here?... doubt, perplexity about the Dhamma..." .... S: Yes, well said. Good references too. Of course, it's only through the development of right understanding that doubt is eradicated. "You may well doubt", not "You should doubt", as I quoted yesterday. With the development of understanding, no more doubt or questioning about whether there can be understanding at this very moment in daily life. I look f/w to more discussion... Metta Sarah ====== #100801 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta chewsadhu Dear pt and Nina, I have found this two paragraphs in the Anattalakkhana Sutta by the Venerable Mahaasi Sayaadaw. I shall type it as below: As stated above, in the process of cognition through the eye door, the object is only the ultimate visible sight, not the conceptual form of a man or a woman. After running the complete process, the mind sinks down to the bhava.nga, which runs its course for some moments. Then the process of cognition through the mind door, manodvaaravithii, arises through REFLECTION on whatever has been seen. Arising from bhava.nga, the mind door apprehending consciousness, manodvaaraavajjana, appears, followed by the javana process which runs for seven moments and the tadaalambana consciousness which lasts for two moments. The whole course, therefore, runs for ten thought moments after which it sinks down to bhava.nga level again. In this thought process, the (mental) object is just a REFLECTION on the sight that has been seen, it is not yet based on any wrong concept of previous experiences. When the REFLECTIVE process of cognition takes place for the second time, it is the concept of form and appearance that have become its object -- the form and appearance of a man or a woman, say. When the process is repeated for the third time, it is the concept of name (of man and woman) that has become the object. From then onwards, every time there is a REFLECTION on what has been experienced previously, the object is always simply a concept: "I see a man". "I see a woman". This is how consciousness plays conjuring tricks and substitutes concepts for realities. With respect, Chew p.s. You can get the paragraphs at the below link: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/mahasi-anat/anat04.htm [CONSCIOUSNESS LIKENED TO A CONJURER'S TRICK] #100802 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Khun Sujin, from another board. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Sat, 19/9/09, truth_aerator wrote: >> S: My understanding, on the contrary, is that when the Buddha talked about the ayatanas, dhatus etc, he was very interested in describing 'what is', the realities 'now' which have to be known. Yes, it's not another 'theory', but it's only by describing and undersatanding 'what is' now, that the causes and conditions, the anatta aspect of dhammas can be known. So we agree that the teachings are very, very practical. > > Seeing is dhamma/abhidhamma now. Visible object is dhamma now. Phassa is dhamma now. Vedana is dhamma now. > .... A:> We can agree to disagree. I believe in the pragmatic and liberative effect of the Buddha's teaching. ..... S: What is more "pragmatic and liberative" than understanding the ayatanas or dhatus now, such as seeing, visible object, contact, feeling and so on? .... >You know, it may be very easy to question the ontological things that He has taught. But results you cannot question as much, the removal of stress does matter - pragmatically. .... S: What do you mean by "stress" here? Are you suggesting that the aim of the teachings is to remove unpleasant feeling? Is that the pragmatic result you aspire to? Metta Sarah ======== #100803 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Suan (& Lukas), --- On Sun, 13/9/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: Yes, good comments and a nice quote. "We can sit on the deck of the boat and in one moment there can be understanding of realities, without doing anything." So true... ============ ========= ========= = H:> Just a thought: If wishes were gold, we would be Midas! ;-) .... S: The point of the story and Lukas's comment was exactly the opposite of that which you suggest;-) In other words, that there is no role for wishing at all in the development of insight. To re-play the quote he gave from the Atthasalini with a few further comments interspersed: L:Consider this story of such an experience. The Elder Mahaagatigamiyatissa crossed over to the opposite shore of India with the intention of paying homage to the Wisdom Tree. Seated on the upper deck of the boat he looked at the great ocean; but neither the thither nor the hither shore appeared to his vision. There appeared only the great ocean, strewn with foam thrown off by the breaking of the billows, and looking like a sheet of silver spread out on a bed of jasmine flowers. He thought to himself: which is more extraordinary - the heaving of the ocean waves, or the basis of the method of the twenty-four divisions in the Great Book? Then the limits of the great ocean became apparent to him. Indeed, he thought to himself, this ocean is limited, below by the earth, above by the sky, on one side by the mountain encircling the world-system, and on the other by the seashore. But the limits of the universal Pa.t.thaana are not apparent. ..... S: So this is an Elder who was undertaking a big journey to pay respect where the Buddha had become enlightened. He already appreciated and greatly revered the Patthaana and the extraordinary omniscient wisdom of the Buddha. He wasn't sitting on a boat in ignorance, wishing for gold! He understood the conditioned nature of dhammas, the causes of insight development which did not include setting special rules or undertaking a formal practice of any kind on the boat. Naturally, through his accumulated saddhaa and pa~n~naa, his reflections would turn to the Dhamma and to the nature of conditioned dhammaa in particular. ..... L:>And abundant rapture arose in him, as he reflected on the subtle and abstruse Law. Arresting his rapture and increasing his insight even while he was seated, he threw off all the corruptions, and being established in the topmost Fruition which is Arahantship, he exulted in this song of ecstacy: >He is the true disciple of the Sage Who sees, like a bright jewel in his hand, Root-causes, from which all becoming is - Lore deep and hard to know, which the Great Sage Intuited, and all in order taught.> .... S: He didn't say to himself: "Oh, I must study the Abhidhamma text in silence for so many hours in order to become an arahat." He didn't say to himself, "Oh, I must go to the Bodhi tree in order to become enlightened." He didn't say to himself, "Oh, I must concentrate on my breath or a corpse or sit cross-legged in a forest or do any other special practice" in order to become enlightened. He simply and naturally reflected deeply on the jewel of the Teachings and penetrated the deep meaning then and there. I'm interested to know in what way this is "out of touch with traditional Theravada teachings", as Suan suggests. I would have thought that little was more "in touch" with the same teachings than what we read in the Atthasalinii. >H:> And two more thoughts (from the Buddha) are appended at the end. >/Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains â€" going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it â€" and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ >(From the Avarana Sutta) ..... S: Yes, the Elder in the passage would not have been able to penetrate the truth if he'd been overwhelmed with the hindrances. He had confidence and understanding in the conditioned nature of dhammaa, no doubts about what the path was. At the moment of becoming an arahat, the final hindrances were eradicated for good. Not before this. .... >/There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) .... S: ...and at that moment of becoming an arahat, the lokuttara cittas were accompanied by appanaa samaadhi, absorption concentration. If we are interested in being "in touch" with "the traditional Theravada teachings" which Suan refers to, what we study in the Tiptiaka and ancient commentaries has to be in conformity. And those teachings have to refer to the dhammaa at this very moment. Now we're not on the "deck of a boat", we're sitting at a computer and there can be awareness and understanding right now, as Lukas suggested, but only if there has been enough careful consideration of what we're read and heard. Metta Sarah ======== #100804 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sarahprocter... Hi Sukin (Ken H, Rob K & all), --- On Sun, 13/9/09, Sukinder wrote: >>R:On many occasions in the texts people seem to consider going to heaven one of the rewards of right view and right deeds, and look forward to it. Robert >Suk: .....But I was still having difficulty imagining that they would actually conceive of "heaven" and would do good purely in order that they will then be reborn there. I wanted to believe that most of them would do good not for the kind of result, but more directly seeing the harm of akusala and value of kusala, if not the disadvantage of rebirth at all. So I asked A. Sujin about this. >She said as we all know, that the Buddha pointed out *all* causes and effects. That even though the aim of the Teachings is not for 'good rebirth', but just as people today would think according to their own accumulations and take what they are inclined to, so too the people during the Buddha's time. In other words, there'd be some who would as you say, "look forward to" being reborn in heaven and acting accordingly. .... Sarah: I think the following which I discussed with Han is relevant to this discussion and one we were having with Ken H: >S: In the Udaana commentary, Sona chapter, #3 "Leper", about Suppabuddha, there area lot of details on the progressive talk (aanupubbikatha.m), which we've already discussed and referred to. <...> ".....'Anyone capable of perceiving Dhamma (bhabbo dhamma.m vi~n~naatu.m)': anyone capable of attaining Dhamma in the form of the paths and their fruitions, meaning anyone endowed with the potential. 'This occurred (etad ahosi)': this occurred, viz. 'Although this Suppabuddha has been born as such after committing an offence against the Paccekabuddha Tagarasikhi, his potential as regards the paths and their fruitions nonetheless flashes forth within his heart like a golden ring covered by dust; he can easily be made to perceive', for which reason 'This one is, in the present case, one capable of perceivig Dhamma' was said. " 'A progressive talk (aanupubbikatha.m)': a talk (that proceeds) successively such that (talk) on morality is immediately preceded by that on almsgiving, (talk) on heaven is immediately preceded by that on morality, (talk) on the path is immediately preceded by that on heaven; for the Lord, having in the first instance indicated a sweet taste (assaada.m) together with its root-cause, then makes manifest by various means the peril (therein), in order to separate beings therefrom, and then finally indicates, to those whose hearts have been shocked through hearing of that peril(aadiinavasavanena), the absence of the cycle, opening with an explanation of the virtues of renunciation." >S: I was interested to know why the section on 'heaven' was included after the sections on almsgiving (daanakatha.m) and morality (siilakatha.m)and this is what the text states: >"...Moreover, he talked talk on heaven immediately preceded by that on morality in order to indicate that it is dependent upon such morality that that heaven is obtained. 'Talk on heaven (saggakatha.m)': talk associated with the virtues of heaven such as 'Heaven is a name for that which is desirable, for that which is pleasing, for that which is charming. Permanently here (there is) sporting, permanent the excellences obtained: the devas belonging to the realm of the Four Great Kings acquire heavenly happiness, heavenly excellence, for ninety hundred thousand years, those of the Thirty-three for three ko.tis of years plus sixty hundred thousand years (besides)' and so on, for the mouth fails to suffice when Buddhas talk on heavenly excellence. >"And this also is said: 'In countless ways, monks, could I talk talk on heaven' and so forth. Having thus enticed him with talk on heaven together with its root-cause, he next, as though severing the trunk of the elephant he had just decorated, talked of the peril, the degradation, the corruption of sense-desires after the manner of 'Of little sweet taste are sense-desires, of much dukkha, of much despair' more so is the peril herein' (M i 130) and so on with the aim of showing even such heaven to be impermanent, unstable, (and) that yearning and lust ought not to be exercised in that direction. Herein: >" 'The peril (aadiinava.m)': the blemish. 'The degradation (okaara.m)': that which is in its own nature despicable, meaning that which is, in its own nature, base is a thing to be pursued by those other than the best (of folk), not a thing to be pursued by the best (of folk). 'The corruption (sa"nkilesam)': the defiling within sa.msaara of beings by way of these, for which same reason 'Truly, sir, do beings become defiled' was said." >S: Having talked about the danger of sense-desires, "severing the trunk of the elephant he had just decorated", the talk continues with the advantages of renunciation and when the listener was receptive, in this case Suppabuddha the leper, the teaching on the Four Noble Truths - 'Dukkha, uprising, cessation (and the) path'. >The texts refers to Suppabuddha's "swift completion of vipassanaa, his sharpness of isnsight, his ease of practice, and his rapid superknowledge." The simile of cleaning cloth is given and I like the following elaboration of it: >"(Suppabuddha's) heart is to be regarded as the cloth, his heart's being corrupted by the stains of lust and so on as the cloth's being defiled by adventitious stains, the progressive talk as the washboard, faith as the water, his initiation of energy with respect to the heart's cleansing via the faith-method and so on after first moistening it in the stream of faith and then loosening its blemishes by way of mindfulness, concentration and insight as the business of washing the cloth after first successively moistening it with water and then scouring the black specks with cow-dung or lye, suppression of the defilements by means of that initiation of energy as the departure of the black specks in the cloth by means of that business, the ariyan path as the colouring, (whilst) the thorough cleansing, by means of the path, of his heart, in which the defilements have been suppressed, as the shining bright state of the cloth that has been cleaned in that way."< ..... S: I think that, just like now, people aspired to heavenly rebirths and in many cases, as this one, it was only after talking about the great results of daana and morality by way of such rebirths, that the trunk of the elephean could be severed and the insights into conditioned impermanent dhammaa realised. Metta Sarah ======== #100805 From: "sprlrt" Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:13 pm Subject: Patthaana, anantara/contiguity paccaya and others conditions sprlrt Hi, Anantara/contiguity paccaya is one of the conditions that have generating capabilities only, they don't sustain co-present dhammas; while others, like hetu paccaya, have both capabilities, that of generating unarisen dhammas and that of sustaining arisen ones. I've grouped together some of the conditions with generating/janaka capabilities/satti only] Alberto [PthA. 24. Paccayaniddesapaki.n.nakavinicchayakathaa] Miscellaneus classification of conditions ... 'Generating and non-generating (janakaajanaka)' [capabilites, satti] : anantara (contiguity), samanantara (proximity), anantaruupanissaya (strong dependence on contiguity), pakatuupanissaya (strong dependence on habits), asevana (repetition), and naanaakkha.nika kamma (kamma for anytime [result]), natthi (absence) and vigata (gone-by/disappearance) are conditions wich have generating [capabilities], not non-generating. Only pacchaajaata (post-nascence) paccaya has sustaining (upatthambhaka) and not generating [capabilties]. The remaining paccayas have generating, non-generating and sustaining [capabilities]. ... [Pth. 417-438. Pa~nhāvaro] - [Kusala -> kusala] A kusala dhamma is a condition, as repetition / as contiguity / as proximity / as strong dependence on contiguity / as absence / as gone-by condition, for a[nother] kusala dhamma. Any-earlier kusala khandhas are a condition, as [see above] ..., for any-later kusala khandhas. Anuloma is a condition, as ..., for gotrabhu. Anuloma is a condition, as ..., for vodāna. Gotrabhu is a condition, as ..., for magga. Vodāna is a condition, as ... , for magga. PthA 417: 'Any-earlier (purimā purimā)': a kusala [citta] of one plane for [the immediately following kusala citta of] a different plane... 'Gotrabhu for magga', 'Vodāna for magga': different planes [of citta, gotrabhu belongs to kāma avacara; magga belongs to rųpa / arųpa / lokuttara bhumi (sotapatti, sakadagami, anagami, arahatta magga)] - [Kusala -> abyākata] A kusala dhamma is a condition, as contiguity / as proximity / as strong dependence on contiguity / as absence / as gone-by condition, for an abyākata dhamma. Kusala is a condition, as [same as previous] ..., for resultant [tadalambana/registering vipāka citta] Magga is a condition, as ..., for phala [the fruit, a vipāka citta] Anuloma is a condition, as ..., for the phalasamāpatti of the sekkha [a trainee, i.e. a non-arahant-ariya-puggala] Nirodha ... for resultant. Kusala jhāna ... for phalasamāpatti. - [Akusala -> akusala] An akusala dhamma is a condition, as repetition / as contiguity / as proximity / as strong dependence on contiguity / as absence / as gone-by condition, for an[other] akusala dhamma. Any-earlier akusala khandhas are a condition, as [same as previous] ..., for any-later akusala khandhas. - [Akusala -> abyākata] An akusala dhamma is a condition, as contiguity / as proximity / as strong dependence on contiguity / as absence / as gone-by condition, for an abyākata dhamma. Akusala is a condition, as [same as previous]..., for resultant [tadalambana/registering vipāka citta] - [Abyākata -> abyākata] An abyākata dhamma is a condition, as repetition / as contiguity / as proximity / as strong dependence on contiguity / as absence / as gone-by condition, for an[other] abyākata dhamma. Any-earlier vipāka and kiriya khandhas are a condition, as [same as previous]..., for any-later vipāka and kiriya khandhas. A bhavanga/life continuum [citta] is a condition, as contiguity / as proximity / as strong dependence on contiguity / as absence / as gone-by condition, for an avajjana/adverting [citta]. [Avajjana is the first [kiriya]citta of a process/vithi [a fixed sequence of cittas] through one of the six doors, after [vipaka] bhavanga, the life continuum.] [Maha] Kiriya is a condition, as [same as previous]..., for resultant. The anuloma of the aharant ... for phalasamāpatti. Nirodha ... for resultant. Kiriya jhāna ... for phalasamāpatti. - [Abyākata -> kusala] An abyākata dhamma is a condition, as contiguity / as proximity / as strong dependence on contiguity / as absence / as gone-by condition, for a kusala dhamma. An avajjana/adverting [citta] is a condition, as [same as previous] ..., for kusala khandhas. [In mind door process the avajjana citta arising after bhavangupaccheda, the life continuum citta acting as the mind door well, performs also the function of votthabbana, dermining the jati, kusala or akusala, of the javana cittas which follow.] - [Abyākata -> akusala] An abyākata dhamma is a condition, as contiguity / as proximity / as strong dependence on contiguity / as absence / as gone-by condition, for an akusala dhamma. An avajjana [citta] is a condition, as [same as previous]..., for akusala khandhas. #100806 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:04 am Subject: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 9/21/2009 3:28:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka writes: It seems to me that you also disagree with the clear word of the Buddha on this matter also. ============================ Just to clarify a bit, in case some may get the wrong idea, and to set the record straight: While I think that your take on the Buddha's teaching is mistaken in this particular case and in some other cases as well, this does not indicate in the slightest that I doubt your incredibly deep devotion to the Buddha and to his Dhamma. I admire and respect your broad knowledge of the Buddhadhamma and your dedication to it and to its dissemination. This life work of yours is amazing and admirable, and I appreciate your untiring application to it. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100807 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:46 pm Subject: Re: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. nilovg Hi Howard, I am glad you clarified and I appreciate this. If people think that Kh Sujin does not appreciate Samatha, they should read Survey, Ch 28, where she gives a careful analysis of its practice. She is concerned that people nowadays mistake for jhaana what is not jhaana. This does not mean that she does not see its value. There are many unnessary misunderstandings on this subject. Nina. Op 22-sep-2009, om 16:04 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > While I think that your take on the Buddha's teaching is mistaken in > this particular case and in some other cases as well, this does not > indicate > in the slightest that I doubt your incredibly deep devotion to the > Buddha > and to his Dhamma. #100808 From: "colette" Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:00 pm Subject: "When it rains, it pours", no? ksheri3 Good Morning Howard and Nina, Howard, I'm at a loss, at the moment, to actually be able to make a clarification or any clarifications other than from what, to you, is clarifidied. I appreciate any cook's concern for the difference between regular butter and clarified butter, and I respect that you are gonna use this clarified butter in a dish, FASHION PLATE, somehow although I am not gonna leave the moment of reading your "clarification" to scour the pots and pans looking for what it is you are clarifying. It's known that I'm working w/ POLAR OPPOSITES and Shunyata and the Madhyamika, trying to RECONCILE THEM INTO A SINGLE SENSE OF BEING. What caught my eye was your only reference to Nina that somehow needed clarifying: "disagree". To agree with or to butter up and to not agree with or disagree are very opposite positions. They are both extreme positions. But then you clarified your clarification: "disagree with the clear word ". This is where I need help: WHAT is ever clear in the Buddha's words? <....> So now I think I can re-state my problem: WHAT is ever clear in the Buddha's words? ARe they ULTIMATE REALITY OR ARE THEY RELATIVE REALITY? ARE THEY NOT CONDITIONAL? THEY CERTAINLY ARE DEPENDENT, AND RISE AND FALL ALL IN THE SAME BREATH, AS ANY CITTA DOES. I think it is a very good time for you to inject this concept into the discussion as I fly through my groups, scanning the msg. boards for any consciousness and direction. The use of the word "clarification" is the net that caught my eye, plus it was the first msg. on the HOME PAGE. ;) UH-HO, AS I COPIED THE POST TO PASTE IN MY NOTEBOOK I FIND THAT MAYBE NINA IS THE PERSON THAT SAID THE THINGS THAT I COMMENTED ON AND YOU, HOWARD, ARE DISAGREEING WITH NINA'S "TAKE" ON THE BUDDHA'S WORDS, which is nothing more than INTERPRETATION OF THE WORDS, and then it leads me right back to the example that I used, a Tax Code long enough to make the Upannishads jealous of the volumes and space that the volumes take up. Are the names, the labels, (see Name & Form) equal and nothing more than reflections of eachother: Nina and Howard? <....> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi again, Nina - > > In a message dated 9/21/2009 3:28:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka > writes: > > It seems to me that you also disagree with the clear word of the Buddha on > this matter also. > ============================ > Just to clarify a bit, in case some may get the wrong idea, and to set > the record straight: <....> #100809 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:45 pm Subject: Successful Remembering! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How to Dwell abiding in Successful Recollection: The Blessed Buddha once told his cousin the Noble Layman Mah anama: One who has faith is successful, Mah anama, not one who has no faith. One who is energetic is successful, Mah anama, not one who is lax & lazy. One who is acutely aware is successful, Mah anama, not one who is negligent. One who is concentrated is successful, Mah anama, not one who is distracted. One who understands is successful, Mah anama, not one of no understanding. Having established yourself in these five things, Mah anama, then you should establish six things. On these, Mah anama, you should always dwell recollecting: 1: The Blessed One 2: The Dhamma 3: The Sangha 4: Own Purity 5: Own Generosity 6: The Deities Doing this, Mah anama, one wins the joy & special thrill that goes with the Dhamma . From joy grows satisfaction. From satisfaction grows calm. From a calm body grows happiness. From happiness grows concentration. Concentrated, Mah anama, one dwells even among those agitated. One dwells joyous among those in anger... AN V 329-32 <...>Have a nice remembrance day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #100810 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:59 am Subject: Modern Danish Innocence... bhikkhu.sama... To my very good friend Samuel who is sick: Efterklang: Reverberating remembrance The Mirador Way - Samsaric rebirth - Ever coming back! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSKIl-NeZeE Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #100811 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta ptaus1 Hi Chew, Thanks for this. It's quite interesting that both Ledi Sayadaw and Mahasi Sayadaw list these mind-door processes that seem to appear in fixed sequence after the sense-door process, so I'm wondering whether they do this based on their own experiences, or on some particular commentary source. Another interesting thing is that Mahasi Saydaw lists 3 of those, while Ledi Sayadaw lists 7. I'll make a short comparison list here as I understand it, so it's easier for others to compare: Mind-door processes following the sense-door process according to: Ledi Sayadaw Mahasi Sayadaw 1. Conformational process 1. First reflection 2. Grasping the object as a whole - 3. Recognising the colour - 4. Grasping the entity 4. Second reflection 5. Recognising the entity - 6. Grasping the name 6. Third reflection 7. Recognising the name - I wonder if there are more detailed lists then these by other sayadaws or ancient commentators. Best wishes pt > I have found this two paragraphs in the Anattalakkhana Sutta by the Venerable Mahaasi Sayaadaw. > > I shall type it as below: > > As stated above, in the process of cognition through the eye door, the object is only the ultimate visible sight, not the conceptual form of a man or a woman. After running the complete process, the mind sinks down to the bhava.nga, which runs its course for some moments. Then the process of cognition through the mind door, manodvaaravithii, arises through REFLECTION on whatever has been seen. Arising from bhava.nga, the mind door apprehending consciousness, manodvaaraavajjana, appears, followed by the javana process which runs for seven moments and the tadaalambana consciousness which lasts for two moments. The whole course, therefore, runs for ten thought moments after which it sinks down to bhava.nga level again. In this thought process, the (mental) object is just a REFLECTION on the sight that has been seen, it is not yet based on any wrong concept of previous experiences. > > When the REFLECTIVE process of cognition takes place for the second time, it is the concept of form and appearance that have become its object -- the form and appearance of a man or a woman, say. When the process is repeated for the third time, it is the concept of name (of man and woman) that has become the object. From then onwards, every time there is a REFLECTION on what has been experienced previously, the object is always simply a concept: "I see a man". "I see a woman". This is how consciousness plays conjuring tricks and substitutes concepts for realities. #100812 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta ptaus1 Hi all, Apologies, it seems the formatting for my little table didn't really work out, so here it is again in hope it works this time: Mind-door processes following the sense-door process according to: Ledi Sayadaw.......................Mahasi Sayadaw 1. Conformational process..........First reflection 2. Grasping the object as a whole..x 3. Recognising the colour..........x 4. Grasping the entity.............Second reflection 5. Recognising the entity..........x 6. Grasping the name...............Third reflection 7. Recognising the name............x Best wishes pt #100813 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta nilovg Dear pt and Chew, Op 23-sep-2009, om 7:43 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Mind-door processes following the sense-door process according to: > > Ledi Sayadaw.......................Mahasi Sayadaw > 1. Conformational process..........First reflection > 2. Grasping the object as a whole..x > 3. Recognising the colour..........x > 4. Grasping the entity.............Second reflection > 5. Recognising the entity..........x > 6. Grasping the name...............Third reflection > 7. Recognising the name............x --------- N: I have seen this in the intro to the Compendium of Philosophy, and these are notes of She Zan Aung, and old PTS edition of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. Now there are more editions, and I prefer the complete commentary to it transl by Wiijeratne and Gethin, Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma. On p. 323 I do not find such a detailed description. We cannot pinpoint all this. Before reaching the first stage of insight we do not even know the difference between sense-door and mind-door. Cittas run so fast. I do not see any use in pinpointing the processes in this way. In general we learn: visible object is experienced in a sense-door process, and after that its 'nimitta' is experienced in a mind-door process, perhaps several processes. After that there is recognizing, naming it, and then the object of the cittas is a concept. Is it not enough to know this? We may drown in concepts and words. We can begin to attend to the characteristic of visible object, or of seeing, different from thinking of a person or thing. -------- Nina. #100814 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply (#100699). > S: As I said, I think it's only a problem for those who would like the Buddha's own words about the first council after his death:-) pt: :)) I have to admit I was among these people a few years back. Then, luckily, I read a few passages on abhidhamma, and suddenly the suttas started to make much more sense to me than before, so abhidhamma seemed perfectly all right and I don't bother about authenticity anymore. But it seems like a great pity that many dismiss abhidhamma because of lack of historical evidence, so if that's what it takes to convince them to start reading abhidhamma, then I'd really like to find some historical evidence for them. > S: no one has ever suggested there were 'Pitakas' in the Buddha's time or at the first council. There was Dhamma-Vinaya. The commentaries explain how this equates with the Ti-pitaka. All the various accounts of the First Council (in Theravada sources) are in accordance on this. pt: Interesting, because I thought that 3 pitakas were already arranged at the first council, and in fact that Sariputta was in charge of arranging all the teachings even during the Buddha's time. So when do you think pitakas were closed? I recall that Kathavatthu was closed at the third council, but I thought everything else was closed already at the first council, or am I wrong? Anyway, from what I've read around different websites and here in UP I'd say that the classification of the teachings went through following phases historically: 1. Just Dhamma 2. Dhamma and Vinaya - from the time the Buddha set out the first Vinaya rule. 3. Nine-fold division - the Buddha is still alive at this time. 4. 5 nikayas - at the first council. 5. 3 pitakas - ? (6) Sutta and Vinaya - I'm not sure about this one, because it appears in the suttas a few times, but I'm not sure how early/late it is during the Buddha's life. Aside from the question when the pitaka classification occured historically, I'd also be interested to know whether Nikaya classification happened before the first council or not? The vinaya quote I mentioned before does place it at the time of the first council for sure, but I wonder if it was in existence even before it. Best wishes pt #100815 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anattalakkhana Sutta - Venerable Mahaasi Sayaadaw nilovg Dear Chew, I want to add more to my answer. Op 21-sep-2009, om 16:42 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > Sentences from the book as below: > > "When vipassanaa is very strong, the process does not advance till > javana stage. It abruptly ends after two or three thought moments > of votthapana and sink back to the bhavanga level. This is in > accordance with the meditation instruction given to the Venerable > Pothila by the young novice who instructed that the process of > cognition with respect to five-door consciousness should not sink > to javana stage." ------- N: In this context people quote from the Bahiya sutta: in the seen there will be only the seen... Misunderstandings may arise. I quote from the Co. by Peter Masefield, and Sarah wrote about this before: From the Udana (#10, Baahiya, Masefield transl): ..... "Therefore, Baahiya, you .should so train yourself that with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen, that with respect to the heard there will be merely the heard.......cognised....." ..... The additional commentary (transl by Masefield, PTS): ..... " 'With respect to the seen....merely the seen (di.t.the di.t.thamatta.m)': with respect to a sight-base (ruupaayatane) (there will be) merely that seen by means of eye-consciousness......eye- consciousness, with respect to form (ruupe), beholds mere form (ruupa.m) alone..... It is of the extent seen (di.t.thamatta.m) since it has the extent seen (di.t.thamatta), meaning the thought process will be of the same extent as seeing-consciousness. This is what is said: 'Just as eye- consciousness is not excited, is not blemished, is not deluded, with respect to the form that has gone into its range, so there will be for me and impulsion of the same extent as eye-consciousness in which lust and so on are absent, I will set up an impulsion of the same measure as eye-consciousness.' " N: The words 'I will set up' should be rightly understood, there is no self who does this. Further on the co states:,...occurring (as they do) in accordance with conditions, being solely and merely dhammas; there is, in this connection, neither a doer nor one who causes things to be done...> The process is not broken off, but the javanas (impulsion) are without lobha, dosa or moha. He is aware of visible object as just a conditioned dhamma, he is not infatuated. Nina. #100816 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta nilovg Dear Chew, I add another dialogue about nimitta. Op 21-sep-2009, om 16:00 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > > What is nimitta of a reality? ---------- N: Sujin: Pa~n~naa develops because there was hearing of the dhamma and consideration. Even right now, if there is no forgetfulness, there can be understanding of visible object as just a reality. Usually it is something, a paper or the table. This is because of memory. At the moment of seeing there is the nimitta of visible object. At the moment of experiencing hardness there is the nimitta of hardness, so long as it is not yet experienced as just a reality. Even right now, when touching, it seems that only one rupa of hardness appears, but there are many moments of hardness arising and falling away.> ----------- N: (remark now:) this is important. When touching, we just think: hardness, and it seems on one spot. But the reality is different! Already many rupas are arising and falling away. ---------- Sujin: We do not mind even if a nimitta is experienced, what is there? Behind the nimitta? If there is no rupa can there be a nimitta of anything right now? Pa~n~naa has to grow at this very moment. ----------- N: (remark now): what a reminder! It is pa~n~naa that does grow, even we understand only a tiny bit now! It gives us confidence. ---------- Sujin: Is it right or wrong to see someone or it is just visible object which is seen? Don't think of nimitta, just right now. ----------------------------------------------- Nina. #100817 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta ptaus1 Hi Alberto, Thanks for this good reminder. I'm also glad to see you back - I really appreciate your posts about conditions and hope to see more of them. Best wishes pt > I would also like to add that the Dhamma/Tipitaka can be the object of the 11th akusala kāmāvacara citta (Dhs. 422), moha mųla (rooted in ignorance), upekkha sahagatam (accompanied by neutral feeling), vicikiccha sampayutta (associated with doubt); > one of the many conceptual objects of that citta listed at Dhs. 1123 (as a fetter, to vipassana); and 1167 (as an hindrance, to samatha): > "What is doubt here?... doubt, perplexity about the Dhamma..." > > Alberto #100818 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta nilovg Dear pt, Op 22-sep-2009, om 7:48 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > So my questions is - in terms of the above sequence of mind-door > processes that follow a sense-door process - where does sankhara > nimitta stop and pannatti nimitta begins? > ------- N: When there is recognizing of a person or thing, naming it, the object is a pa~n~natti, not a sankhaara nimitta. Sankhaara nimitta is used for nimitta of a reality, nimitta of each of the five khandhas. When we speak about this kind of nimitta we do not speak of nimitta in the sense of a concept, such as the outward appearance or details of what is perceived. Here nimitta is used in another sense. --------- > pt: I mean, the fire-stick example, which I often encountered while > going through Useful posts, doesn't seem to refer to the first > subsequent mind-door process (nor many sense-door/mind-door > sequences), but according to Bhikkhu Bodhi's rendering of Ledi > Sayadaw refers to the second mind-door process that follows the > original sense-door process. So, would that mean that sankhara > nimitta in fact lasts for two mind-door process, following the > sense-door process? Or maybe three (thus including the recognition > of colour)? ------- N: I would not put it that way. A reality, like ruupa, does not last longer than seventeen moments of citta. Nimitta reminds us that a reality arises and falls away very quickly, and we do not think of how long it lasts. A nimitta refers to the way a reality appears to the citta that experiences it. We can use the firestick simile to many visible objects appearing in different processes that seem to be a long moment of the appearance of visible object. The characteristic of visible object can be investigated with mindfulness, no need to think of nimitta. ------- Nina. #100819 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:22 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 6, no 6, the end. nilovg Dear friends, Question: In the Suttas we read about monks who were being drawn away from the teachings, who were backsliding. When is one backsliding? Answer: When one is no longer interested in developing understanding. Question: I think that this happens when people become discouraged, when they think the development of right understanding is too difficult and when they do not see any results. Is that not so? Answer: Even if it is difficult to develop understanding there are so many moments for you to start again. You can start again at every moment, whether you work or you don't work, whether you are in a hurry or at leisure, it is the same. You always have an opportunity to start again. You may regret your lack of understanding, your forgetfulness, but what about this moment now? Question: When you work you have more problems and then you are distracted. Is that not so? Answer: There is no difference between your working situation and your free time. We have problems when we work and when we don't work; we still have to make decisions. Our problems are caused by attachment, aversion and ignorance and these arise no matter where we are. Only when we develop right understanding of this moment, regardless of our situation, there will be fewer defilements and thus fewer problems. Question: I cannot help regretting the lack of awareness. I have desire for the arising of awareness. Can I tell myself not to have desire? Answer: When you understand that desire counteracts progress there will be conditions to stop wishing for results. Only intellectual understanding of the teachings, acquired by reading, considering and discussing can condition the arising of direct understanding, now or later on. There will be more patience when we remember that awareness and understanding do not belong to a self which can make them arise. Then, we can have the courage to begin again and again to find out more about the reality appearing at this moment. ********** (the End) Nina. #100820 From: "sprlrt" Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sprlrt Hi Sarah (and pt), > .... > S: Yes, well said. Good references too. Of course, it's only through the development of right understanding that doubt is eradicated. > ... Thanks, also, paņņa/understanding (of paramattha dhammas), a kusala root/hetu arising with the four maha kusala citta ņāna sampayutta, can know the intrinsic characteristic of any paramattha dhamma, one at the time, inc. that of vicikiccha and of moha (as dhamma anupassana), that of vedana (anupassana), and that of the 11th akusala citta (anupassana), rooted in ignorance (of paramattha dhammas), accompanied by upekkha and associated with doubt; akusala dhammas that have just previously fallen away. I think this would be an example of akusala dhammas being pakatųpanissaya paccaya for kusala ones. But realities arise by conditions, i.e. more than one, and for kusala or akusala dhammas these would include root/hetu paccaya, which in its turn can condition only the same jati of the paccaya itself, i.e. an akusala root won't condition the arising of a kusala one. From Nina's excellent work on Vis. & tėka, XVII, 68, Hetu paccaya: ..."The Tiika explains that root-condition operates by assisting in both ways, in the presence and in the arising of another dhamma."... And for paņņa to be (kusala) hetu paccaya for the arising of patipatti it has to develop first through pariyatti, "theory", as yoniso manasikara; with pativedha, i.e. magga cittas knowing nibbana, eradicating kilesa dhammas. Alberto #100821 From: "freawaru80" Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:21 am Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. freawaru80 Hello Ken, > Welcome to DSG. Thank you very much :) > There are no instructions in the original Theravada texts and so most people feel obliged to invent their own. And yes, they ones they invent usually are similar to the ones you have mentioned. > > The ancient Theravada texts teach a way of understanding, not a way of doing. And so they would never contain instructions. Instead they contain descriptions of the way things are. So we can have right understanding. Yes. I think so, too. The suttas describe the states and experiences rather than giving instuctions how to reach them. I think this is because there are many ways to experience samadhi and to enter the vipassana states. Thus "instructions" are not necessary: just concentrate until the switch to insight becomes possible. Freawaru #100822 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. nilovg Dear Freawaru. Welcome here. I appreciate your interest. Op 23-sep-2009, om 10:21 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > The suttas describe the states and experiences rather than giving > instuctions how to reach them. I think this is because there are > many ways to experience samadhi and to enter the vipassana states. > Thus "instructions" are not necessary: just concentrate until the > switch to insight becomes possible. ------- N: I would add: many degrees of experiencing samaadhi. There is calm with each kusala citta, also when we study. And when attaining enlightenment a very high degree of samaadhi accompanies the lokuttara citta that experiences nibbaana. This is entirely because of conditions, it happens also for those who did not develop jhaana. Insight is actually the development of understanding of all that is real in our daily life: the different physical phenomena and mental phenomena that occur and appear through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. It is not a matter of concentration. But samaadhi accompanies the citta that develops understanding, because of conditions. It is not so that there is a switch to insight after concentration. Understanding has to begin little by little and then it can grow. Nina. #100823 From: "freawaru80" Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:01 am Subject: A not so short Hello freawaru80 Hello All, yahoo asks every new member to introduce him or herself. My net-name is Freawaru, has always been since my first internet discussion forum - about Star Trek; I wanted a Trek-related name and my first choice, the name "Freya", was already used and so I choose the original one from Beowulf. I am very used to it by now. I am German so please be patient with my English ;) I participate in another Buddhist discussion forum (e-sangha) and another member of it alerted me to your interesting discussions here. My interest in Buddhism is focused on meditation. I am not much interested in philosophy or rites and rituals and all that. I started with meditation at the age of twelve. I picked up a book on Hatha yoga from a shelf, read a bit, and was fascinated. So I started to experiement with the techniques described in it. I never got really far with the asanas themselves; instead I elaborated on moving my awareness through my physical body until a samadhi would happen. Of course, at that time I didn't know to call it a samadhi but the complete switch of perspective arouse my interest. I would concentrate on the tactile impression of, say, my hand until I WAS that hand. I mean, usually we are pretty much "head", somewhere behind the eyes, we are a personality sitting there, experiencing the body. But for those moments of samadhi I was not that personality, not my body, no sight, no emotions, no thoughts, no other impression but "hand". But while "hand" dominated the experience itself I was lucidly aware so. On a different level that had nothing to do with the specific experience itself I knew that I was "hand" now and that usually I was not, that I had been practicing hatha yoga, had a personality and all that. After a certain familatization with these kind of experiences I started to switch my attention from the specific experience to watching it. I started to investigate what happend, how the switches happend, why I fell back, and explored the stuff that becomes apparent in those states and are usually hidden behind all our surface thoughts and feelings and personality. And then it started to happen on it's own. I never really knew beforehand when or why, but seemingly out of the blue I would switch into a state of pure observation, detached from my personality and body/mind and observe them instead of experiencing them. I had gone through a phase of completely suppressed emotions that had rendered me unable to experience fear, anger, ambition etc. I didn't like it. Of course, at first I thought "great!" all those nasty useless incontrollable obstacles out of the way, but then I started to miss them. I felt incomplete and I also missed the supporting power emotions give us. So I wanted them back. One of my first unintentional switch into that state of pure observation happend when anger arose again after months of complete absense. I was so surprised, so happy, and then I was observing how it altered mind and body from that detached, blissfull observer perspective. I deduced that surprise could cause it but it also happend without surprises and till now I do not know what caused those switches. At that time I had given up Hatha yoga because I was unsure about all those changes inside my mind. They happend so fast I couldn't keep track and I didn't have a teacher or knew anybody who could relate or had similar experiences. I had made up my own naming of the changes and insights and experiences and my own theory of "how things are", altering it whenever something new happend. Of course, I knew that somehow hatha yoga had been the initial cause but I didn't research into it, instead I wanted to be "normal" again, but you know how it is: once you enter that path, forever ... ;) Bach to those states of pure observation. They were nice. I mean, really nice, all bliss and equanimity and deep penetrating insight. No problems at all. All problems were in that what I observed, not me not what I am, a bit like watching TV (which prompted me to call it "Watcher"; I know by now that most people call it "Witness" or vipassana). Because of it happening on it's own one day I felt compelled to ask myself if I wanted to stay in it forever. To never return into my personality with all it's quirks and problems and delusions and pain. I decided against it for three reasons. First, for all it's bliss and equanimity and insight vipassana is not alife. One does not get the impression of "doing" something, just watching. Stay in front of the TV forever? Not my idea of fun. Second: what is the point? One can see all the patterns and programms and how things really are, but one cannot change one single bit. One is excluded from it all, completely. Sure, after return into one's personality one can think about the experience and what one has see but the personality is still somehow excluded. And third: it simply felt wrong. So I tried to counter the switches when they happend. And then I had to alter my theory again. Because instead of loosing the perspective of the personality for the perspecive of insight I was taking both, simultaniously, separate of each other. Wouldn't have thought it possible. I mean, we usually take one perspective at a time, we are one person, one being, one kamma But during the next experiences I was two, human personality and Witness. That was cool, much better than the original switches, kinda eating the cake and watching yourself eating it at the same time. The human personality wasn't aware of the insight while it happend, just in retrospect as a memory, so it was still left out somehow. I do not know in how many one can split and become one again. Most my experinences in this were into two, but also once I was three and once (during an accident) I was multiple. That accident also caused me to alter my theory because it renedered my original assumption that one cannot alter or change anything from the vipassana state wrong. Vipassana/Witness experiences always run on a high speed awareness and discernment - that is why they can observe mind and body processses that are very fast. Taking such a high speed perspective, seeing everything external as if in slow motion, and everything internal like Hiro Nakamura in the TV series "Heros" (namely as if in an almost stand still) gives one plenty of time to come up with a way to get one's body out of danger. Of course, to bring this plan into action one has to put the personality and it's patterns on standby for the whole operation. The way to do it is through the vipassana perspective, that seems more like a channel than a set of individual states then. This experience happend in my late teens. Now, more than twenty years later, things have changed again. I do not switch into the full vipassana state as often but instead I get simultanious perceptions of the personality experience and insight, but both in a reduced way. I think of it as a hybrid state, and the strenght of either state can be altered by will and intention of the personality. Now and then, due to surprise, the shift to vipassana still happens on it's own but all in all everything is more stable now due to the hybridization and the character is not left out any more either, About ten years ago the hybridization also entered into dream state. As you saw I made up my own terminology and theories. What I would like now is to learn the Buddhist one so I can switch to it. The "state of pure observation" is clearly vipassana, and what I named "hybrid state" is called sati-sampajanna (Clear Comprehension) by some Theravadan teachers (for example Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw and Ven. Nanavira Thera). But there are still countless things I have no name for (never even named them myself) so I look for people who do not just know the theory but can point out a term or concept and know how it appears with insight by their own experience. Freawaru #100824 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:47 am Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "freawaru80" wrote: > > <. . .> The suttas describe the states and experiences rather than giving instuctions how to reach them. I think this is because there are many ways to experience samadhi and to enter the vipassana states. Thus "instructions" are not necessary: just concentrate until the switch to insight becomes possible. > > Hi Freawaru, As you rightly say the suttas describe states and experiences. They don't give instructions on how to enter them. Why not? Because we have *already* entered them. Right now there is experience. Consciousness is experiencing an object. Right now (as in every moment of consciousness) there is samadhi. Samadhi is fixing consciousness onto the object of consciousness. Without it there could be no experience. The whole purpose of the Dhamma is to give us right understanding of this, present, object of consciousness. Past and future have no relevance whatsoever in satipatthana. Only the present moment matters. Ken H #100825 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:48 am Subject: Re: More questions about nimitta gazita2002 hallo pt, I'm also not sure what they meant, however I do know that one citta at a time has one object. was listening to a recording this morning and K.Sujin was talking about these sense-door/mind-door processes. Cant now remember her exact words but my undrstanding is that there countless numbers of these processes in a split second and altho I appreciate the way the Saydaws break up the process in parts of recognition, I agree with Nina that we need not get caught up with 'counting'. As soon as my eyes open in the mornings there is nimitta of visible object - soooooo fast! Not just eye door but hearing, smelling etc. All of the time, there is living in this world of concepts, and its all about me - well, for me personally that is:-( Its good to be reminded that there are realities but extremely difficult to actually 'know' them. Takes a lot of wisdom I think Patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Dear Azita, > > Thanks for replying. > > > azita: there may be 33 or whatever no. of dhammas in any given moment, however, as I understand, only one can be the object of citta. > > therefore, only one nimitta at a time. > > pt: That was my understanding as well. I'm not sure then why Nina and Sarah are saying that there are multiple nimittas at the same time (and sanna marking all of them at the same time?) - though, of course, I might be completely missing what they are trying to say there. > > Best wishes > pt > #100826 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:25 pm Subject: Re: Sex. . . kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > <. . .> > > I am sure some people at the meeting would have been thinking "Won't > > that depend on cultural traditions and other circumstances?" But K Sujin > > was quite adamant. > > > Dear Ken > This is a subject I struggle with, especially as I live with a girl, in sin, as my mother would say (or would have said 30 years ago- she seems to be more 'broadminded' now). Now Junko is 29 and her parents know that we live together- in fact we visted them in Japan and stayed in a room in their house. > Am I nevertheless in breech of the precept? Does it all change if we get married? > > Also my 20 year old daugher has a boyfriend and they stay together in weekends. I am not overly excited about this but not too worried either, after all what can one do or say in this age. Is that boy breaking the precept? > Robert ------------- Hi Robert, I am sure your questions were rhetorical and no answers were expected. (I would be the last person in this forum to ask conventional questions of.) But it might be impolite of me not to say something. :-) According to my understanding, any "view" of a conventional situation would be a wrong view. Questions such as "Is that boy breaking the precept (or is he not breaking . . . is he both breaking and not breaking . . . neither breaking nor not breaking . . .) simply do not apply in satipatthana. And that's all the Buddha taught - satipatthana. At any time when a "view" is a right view, it is telling us there is no conventional reality here, only dhammas. So no "boy" or "sentient being" of any kind. However, even knowing this, people still insist on trying to impose right view onto their conventional reality. But not me. I wouldn't like to base conventional decisions, such as "should I get married," on the Dhamma. Ken H #100827 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:28 pm Subject: Ageing and Death! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The inevitable and ever returning problem: Death! All health ends in sickness, all youth ends in ageing, all life ends in assured death! All world existence begins with birth, is haunted by ageing, surprised by sickness, and struck down by death, often in a state of desperate panic and frantic fear... As though if huge mountains made of rock so vast that they reach up into the sky, were to attack from every side, grinding & crunching beneath them all that lives, so indeed do Ageing and Death roll over all beings, whether gods, kings, warriors, priests, merchants, craftsmen, poor, or animals, crushing all beings, sparing none! And neither armies, nor guards, nor medicines, nor spells, or riches, can even delay them by a single second! (SN I 102). Death should thus be remembered as the ruin of success by seeing it as death's final & unavoidable wrecking any life's success! Vism I 232 <...> Have a sober ultra realistic day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <....> #100828 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:33 am Subject: personal news and Dhamma. nilovg Dear Sarah, Ken and all, Sarah, we received a very nice letter from your mother in answer to a birthday wish we sent her. I hope we see her in Febr? She mentioned before, after a trip in Switzerland, that she finds it always so wonderful to be with you and Jon. She appreciates it so much. Lodewijk's memoires: presentation is next week. He gave a radio interview and will be on T.V. , the program: good morning Holland. Guess how early he has to get up, like in India: 4-5-6. (wake up call at 4, breakfast at 5, departure at 6, it was often like that). Some Dhamma, Ken, how the principle of anattaa and satipa.t.thaan can influence one's social life. Ken, we should not think little of social situations, it is here we can apply the Dhamma. But I know you don't think little of the application in daily life. You rightly said: those who develop satipatthaana know what to do in any situation. A very good reminder. Next (upcoming ) section of Sangiitisutta, on the four bases of popularity: DN 33.1.11(40) 'Four bases of sympathy (sa'mgaha- vatthuuni): generosity, pleasing speech, beneficial conduct and impartiality." In the radio interview Lodewijk emphasized how the function of a diplomat is a serving function. Lodewijk stressed personal diplomacy: in Vienna the representative of Iran and also the one from Irak were despised by other diplomats. We made friends with them, invited them, wanting to be real friends, not in order to 'get' something. Lodewijk thinks that one cannot do one's work properly if one does not make friends with other colleagues first. Impartiality. In his work concerning certain resolutions he operated successfully, he received the support from the Iran representative. The interviewer was interested in Buddhism and Lodewijk said that he finds anattaa very difficult. In his book he puts himself in the background, giving portraits of other people he served under and he respected. 'I, I, I " is not important. He finds respect for the culture of other nations very important. The interviewer ended with the remark that getting rid of the ego is so difficult. Lodewijk said that he is not so far yet. I think that the four bases of popularity are very inspiring, especially in the light of satipa.t.thaana. You think of others, less and less of self we are inclined to find so important. Nina. #100829 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:17 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (40-47) scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing from #100618 Fours (37-39) (cy: #100740, #100748) CSCD <mithyaa. Dhtm 437 defines by "sammose," i. e. forgetfulness] v. intrs.: to forget, to pass into oblivion, to become bewildered, to become careless D I.19 (sati m.); J V.369 (id.). - pp. mu.t.tha. Cpp. pa-, pari-. I'm going to say this comes to our: Mis-taken, which could be taken for both intentional and unintentional false speech. "I must have mistaken myself," for having said something untrue; later to "I must have misspoken". Note with reference to discussions of "samma" and "micchaa" where I hold that both these terms have been ...um...taken wrongly (see the discussion of terminology at the top of Lesson 8: Samma.) I have previously translated this as "intentional untrue speech," but clearly it covers careless untrue speech as well. Pisu.na (adj.) [Vedic pishu.na, see etym. under pisaaca] backbiting, calumnious, malicious M III.33, 49; J I.297; Pug 57; PvA 15, 16. Usually combd with vaacaa malicious speech, slander, pisu.navaacaa and pisu.naavaacaa D I.4, 138; III.70 sq., 171, 232, 269; M I.362; III.23; adj. pisu.naavaaca & M III.22, 48; S II.167; Pug 39. -- Cp. pesuna. Pisaaca [cp. Sk. pishaaca & Vedic pishaaci; to same root as pisuna=Vedic pishuna, & Lat. piget, Ohg. fehida enmity=Ags. faehp ("feud"), connected with root of Goth. fijan to hate; thus pisaaca=fiend] 1. a demon, goblin, sprite. Pharusa (adj.) [cp. Vedic parus.a, on ph.>p see pharasu, on attempt at etym. cp. Walde, Lat. Wtb. s. v. fario] 1. (lit.) rough. - 2. (fig.) harsh, unkind, rough (of speech) Vin II.290; J V.296. In combn with vaacaa we find both pharusa-vaacaa and pharusaa-vaacaa D I.4, 138; III.69 sq., 173, 232; M I.42 (on this and the same uncertainty as regards pisu.naa-vaacaa see Trenckner, at M I.530). pharusa vacana rough speech. - 3. cruel. Pharasu hatchet, axe. samphappalaapaa: I don't know where I saw this defined (probably discussed in the texts), I can't find it in PED, but what I heard was something like "drooling lip-flapper". I believe my translation above would be heard correctly by an aristocrat even today, but most of us would not understand the subtlties, so for a more spelled-out version: "Untrue speech (intentional or otherwise; the aristocrat is to deliberate before speaking), crude language (in the society of the time this did not carry the same meaning as it does here --USA-- today --24 Aug 2002--; it would not have been considered use of crude language to describe, for example "excrement" as "shit"; the idea is cursing for cursing's sake; there is pleny'nuf good reason to fear the power of words without fearing the words themselves.), injurious speech (speech intended to hurt), talk not focused on the goal (for this note the behavior of the Anuruddha's, where even communicating every day needs were considered an unfit topic for "breaking into speech.") See also: The 10th Lesson: Samma Vaca CSCD < Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. freawaru80 Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Welcome here. Thank you very much :) > N: I would add: many degrees of experiencing samaadhi. I would prase it as: many objects and states samadhi can happen with. > There is calm > with each kusala citta, also when we study. Yes. I know several people who enter samadhi when doing math calculations or writing computer programms. Dance also is well known to have an effect into the right direction (duende). I think it is not so much about the what but about the how. > And when attaining > enlightenment a very high degree of samaadhi accompanies the > lokuttara citta that experiences nibbaana. This is entirely because > of conditions, Will and intention also arise because of conditions... > it happens also for those who did not develop jhaana. Jhana is one of many ladders that move one to more and more subtle objects. There are other ladders. > Insight is actually the development of understanding of all that is > real in our daily life: the different physical phenomena and mental > phenomena that occur and appear through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, > body and mind. Yes. I know that you develloped this. It has happend to me, too. It grows. It seems as if on it's own. I don't have to do anything. Because of this dayly life is meditation. No need to sit (though this is sometimes interesting, too). Do you experience it in dream state, too? I have several questions regarding sati-sampajanna during non-wake states. > It is not so that there is a switch to insight after concentration. Well, that is how it happend to me. First entered a state of concentration and then switched to observation. One day the observation mode just simply didn't leave after ending the sitting. It stayed on a less penetrating level. It grows. It seems nothing can disturb it (during wake that is). Well, I have not tried drugs but normal stuff that usually is considered obstacles to meditation such as emotions or internal chatter do not seem to affect the calm. Freawaru #100831 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. upasaka_howard Hi, Freawaru (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/24/2009 10:34:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, freawaru80@... writes: Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Welcome here. Thank you very much :) > N: I would add: many degrees of experiencing samaadhi. I would prase it as: many objects and states samadhi can happen with. > There is calm > with each kusala citta, also when we study. Yes. I know several people who enter samadhi when doing math calculations or writing computer programms. Dance also is well known to have an effect into the right direction (duende). I think it is not so much about the what but about the how. ============================ Before retirement I was a mathematician. While engaged in attempting to prove a mathematical conjecture, indeed concentration can be intense, and usually the greater the concentration the more successful the work. So, I suppose one could call that concentration "samadhi." But I assure you that it is nothing close to samma samadhi or to jhana, for there is no calm in it and no peace; there is tension, sometimes excitement, and usually it is VERY tiring. As for dance and "internal" martial arts like tai chi, these I agree may lead to jhana, as may walking meditation, provided that attention is largely centered on bodily sensations. With metta, Howard Mindfulness of the Body /Monks, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing. Just as whoever pervades the great ocean with his awareness encompasses whatever rivulets flow down into the ocean, in the same way, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing./ (From the Kayagatasati Sutta) #100832 From: "freawaru80" Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:01 pm Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. freawaru80 Dear Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > As you rightly say the suttas describe states and experiences. They > don't give instructions on how to enter them. Why not? Because we have > *already* entered them. Right now there is experience. Consciousness is > experiencing an object. Right now (as in every moment of consciousness) > there is samadhi. Only for an arahant every experience is a samadhi. Samadhi is fixing consciousness onto the object of > consciousness. Without it there could be no experience. No. That is not the definition of samadhi. Samadhi has a very specific meaning. My deep sleep for example is not a samadhi. Because I am not aware that the mind is in deep sleep while it is in deep sleep. For most people I know experiencing an emotion such as anger or fear is not a samadhi because there is no control, the emotion takes over. Samadhi always implies a volitional control over the state due to the lucidity that arises from the fixation (otherwise one could not switch from one jhana to another or from one element to another as in the Visuddhimagga). You can compare it to a lucid dream. A non-lucid dream is also an experience but only knowing and controlling the state makes it lucid. A similar (but not identical) lucidity appears during samadhi. So for non arahats not every experience is a samadhi. Freawaru #100833 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:43 pm Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. truth_aerator Hello Freawaru80, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "freawaru80" wrote: > > Hi All, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > Hi Alex > > > > (100627) > > > > I don't know of anyone on this list who has advocated "mere >intellectual comprehension" (Do you?). > > > > > > Okay. How do you practice it then? Or shall I say, how are these realities seen? > > > > We would all like to know how it's done. If only it were capable of being reduced to a set of instructions to be followed! ;-)) > > I am confused. Isn't the usual set of instructions: practice concentration and switch to observation when the concentration has the required strenght? > For a strong insight, there must be a degree of concentration present. Here by concentration I've meant the non-distraction with knowledge. I have heard that vipassana can happen in any situation, but I do not bet on it. While it is true that nama-rupa is present in all of kamaloka, the fact is that hell beings can't do vipassana, animals can't, hungry ghosts can't, people being very busy with taxes and business affairs cannot do really strong insight WHILE that busyness is occurring. This is one of the reasons the Buddha praised physical solitude. ""And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html With metta, Alex #100834 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:49 pm Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "freawaru80" > wrote: > > > > > <. . .> > The suttas describe the states and experiences rather than giving > instuctions how to reach them. I think this is because there are many > ways to experience samadhi and to enter the vipassana states. Thus > "instructions" are not necessary: just concentrate until the switch to > insight becomes possible. > > > > > > > Hi Freawaru, > > As you rightly say the suttas describe states and experiences. They > don't give instructions on how to enter them. Why not? Because we >have> *already* entered them. Hello Ken. Have you entered Jhanas? What about Aruppa stages? 8 liberations? What about kasinas, and nimittas? > Right now there is experience. Consciousness is > experiencing an object. Right now (as in every moment of >consciousness) there is samadhi. Samadhi is fixing consciousness >onto the object of consciousness. There is samma-samadhi as 4 Jhanas - which are part of N8P. Are you saying that you are in 4 Jhanas? There is right concentration (samma-samadhi) and (miccha-samadhi) - so not all samadhi is wholesome. A concentration of a sniper or a thief is unwholesome. A concentration of samma-samadhi is wholesome. With metta, Alex #100835 From: "freawaru80" Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:38 pm Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. freawaru80 Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > For a strong insight, there must be a degree of concentration present. Here by concentration I've meant the non-distraction with knowledge. Yes. Still the question remains: how does this specific concentration arise. What conditions it? For example, most people seem to loose concentration when being angry or scared or any other intense emotion. I remember that this happend to me, too, when I was a child. But now when fear or anger (etc) arise concentration increases, too. The kind of concentration that accompanies insight. During emotions I can actually observe my mind better than without them. It is as if the emotion fuels the concentration, automatically. I don't have to do anything, I just "sit back" and observe. I do not know about Theravada but I know that in Tibetan Buddhism there are actually techniques that work on this basis. But I don't need a technique, I don't have to place myself in a state of calm before rising an emotion intentionally so that it fuels the concentration. It happens on it's own the moment an emotion "knocks" at my gate. There is a gatekeeper awake, monitoring the gates. What I want to get to is that there are different rules for different people at different levels of devellopment. What works for one person does not necessarily work for another one, too. > I have heard that vipassana can happen in any situation, but I do not bet on it. It can - but it does not, lol >While it is true that nama-rupa is present in all of kamaloka, the fact is that hell beings can't do vipassana, animals can't, hungry ghosts can't, Yes. I wonder why??? > people being very busy with taxes and business affairs cannot do really strong insight WHILE that busyness is occurring. I wouldn't bet on it. If emotions can enhance insight maybe business arrairs can so, too. They don't for me, except when I get annoyed with it, then the emotion induces joy and amusement. > This is one of the reasons the Buddha praised physical solitude. > > > ""And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html > Are you sure it is physical solitude meant here? Why a shade of a tree? A heap of straw? Freawaru #100836 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:58 pm Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. truth_aerator Dear Freawaru80, KenH, Nina and all interested, >---"freawaru80" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > For a strong insight, there must be a degree of concentration present. Here by concentration I've meant the non-distraction with knowledge. > > Yes. Still the question remains: how does this specific >concentration arise. What conditions it? Samadhi is fully conditioned and some conditions are mentioned in Upanisa sutta, DN34 (or DN33) and some other suttas. Suffering (dukkha), Faith (saddha), Joy (pamojja), Rapture (piti), Tranquility (passaddhi), Happiness (sukha), Concentration (samadhi), Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutaņanadassana), Disenchantment (nibbida), Dispassion (viraga), Emancipation (vimutti), Knowledge of destruction of the cankers (asavakkhaye nana) DN has yoniso manasikaro in the place of faith, otherwise it is the same flow chart. restraint of 6 sense faculties -> not soiled mind -> gladness -> rapture -> tranquil body -> concentration -> phenomena become manifest. SN 35. 97 (4) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For example, most people seem to loose concentration when being angry or scared or any other intense emotion. I remember that this happend to me, too, when I was a child. But now when fear or anger (etc) arise concentration increases, too. The kind of concentration that accompanies insight. During emotions I can actually observe my mind better than without them. It is as if the emotion fuels the concentration, automatically. I don't have to do anything, I just "sit back" and observe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buddhist concentration is wholesome and "un-emotional" . All hindrances are temporary not there. It is different from worldly concentration (ex: a hunter or a soldier being concentrated while aiming) which is unwholesome. > > This is one of the reasons the Buddha praised physical solitude. > > > > > > ""And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html > > > > Are you sure it is physical solitude meant here? Why a shade of a tree? A heap of straw? > > Freawaru Yes, Physical. The long string of examples shows that it is physical. However, mental seclusion is also required, and the physical seclusion helps the mental seclusion. To be blunt, it is very hard for a young guy to have mental seclusion in a strip-club or for someone else to be mentally secluded in a busy marketplace selling your favourite product. Sure it is great to try to use any situation for understanding (which I often call 'practice') but some situations are better than others. With metta, Alex #100837 From: "freawaru80" Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. freawaru80 Dear Howard, > Before retirement I was a mathematician. While engaged in attempting > to prove a mathematical conjecture, indeed concentration can be intense, and > usually the greater the concentration the more successful the work. So, I > suppose one could call that concentration "samadhi." No. Not yet. >But I assure you that > it is nothing close to samma samadhi or to jhana, for there is no calm in > it and no peace; there is tension, sometimes excitement, and usually it is > VERY tiring. Yes, I know what you mean. Manipulating formal systems is usually like that for me, too. Work. But it has also happend (only a few times) that I experienced the unity with the formal system I was working with, a state of calm and bliss and concentration and awareness. I could "see" how my mind was doing the work all on it's own. I admit I am not yet clear regarding the correct terminology. Samadhi implies unity, control (over the state and neigborhood states), a lack of obstacles and that awareness that is detached from the state. I suspect this is not samma samadhi. It only becomes samma samadhi when one "rises" from it and turns the awareness into observation, letting go of control. Doing this the awareness kinda spreads out and penetrates deeper and deeper, the impression of "this (what one observes) is not me, I am not that" intensifies. > Mindfulness of the Body > /Monks, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body > encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing. Just as > whoever pervades the great ocean with his awareness encompasses whatever > rivulets flow down into the ocean, in the same way, whoever develops & > pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities > are on the side of clear knowing./ > (From the Kayagatasati Sutta) > Body (kaya) does not always refer to the physical body. It is more an abstract, technical term. Like in math, you know, the body of complex numbers and all those. There are purely mental kayas and they are not like dream bodies or astral bodies that still resemble the physical one in certain ways. Freawaru #100838 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:26 pm Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. kenhowardau Hi Freawaru, ------ <. . .> KH: > > Right now there is experience. Consciousness is > experiencing an object. Right now (as in every moment of consciousness) > there is samadhi. > > F: > Only for an arahant every experience is a samadhi. ----------- I know the meditation community has its own understanding of the word samadhi. However, in the Theravada texts samadhi definitely does refer to a universal cetasika (universal mental state). Every momentary consciousness (citta), at every single moment of the day, contains the state of samadhi (one pointedness of mind). This universal, momentary form of samadhi is every bit as wonderful and profound as the samadhi known to the meditation community. (Even more so, in my opinion.) -------------------------------- KH: > > Samadhi is fixing consciousness onto the object of consciousness. Without it there could be no experience. > > F: > No. That is not the definition of samadhi. Samadhi has a very specific meaning. My deep sleep for example is not a samadhi. Because I am not aware that the mind is in deep sleep while it is in deep sleep. For most people I know experiencing an emotion such as anger or fear is not a samadhi because there is no control, the emotion takes over. Samadhi always implies a volitional control over the state due to the lucidity that arises from the fixation (otherwise one could not switch from one jhana to another or from one element to another as in the Visuddhimagga). You can compare it to a lucid dream. A non-lucid dream is also an experience but only knowing and controlling the state makes it lucid. A similar (but not identical) lucidity appears during samadhi. So for non arahats not every experience is a samadhi. ------------------------------- Yes, meditation is a fascinating topic, but I hope you will come to see that the Theravada Dhamma is even more fascinating. Every momentary consciousness (citta) has just one object (arammana). Momentary seeing consciousness (cakkhu-citta) experiences *only* momentary visible object (cakkhu-arammana): momentary hearing consciousness (sota-citta) experiences *only* momentary audible object (sota-arammana): and so on for the nose, tongue, body and mind consciousnesses. This profound, complete one-pointedness of mind is samadhi. And it is happening right now. Ken H #100839 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:20 pm Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > <. . .> > > Hi Freawaru, > > > > As you rightly say the suttas describe states and experiences. They > > don't give instructions on how to enter them. Why not? Because we >have> *already* entered them. > > Hello Ken. Have you entered Jhanas? What about Aruppa stages? 8 liberations? What about kasinas, and nimittas? ------ Hi Alex and Freawaru, The whole purpose of the Dhamma is to teach us to know the present, conditioned reality. Whatever that reality might be! If the present conditioned reality is jhana citta, then it can (thanks to the Dhamma) be known for what it is. In my case I can be sure it isn't jhana citta. Nor has it ever been in this lifetime. Nor will it be. But the Buddha described jhana anyway - for the benefit of those who did (or would) experience it. Ken H #100840 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Freawaru) - In a message dated 9/24/2009 5:26:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Freawaru, ------ <. . .> KH: > > Right now there is experience. Consciousness is > experiencing an object. Right now (as in every moment of consciousness) > there is samadhi. > > F: > Only for an arahant every experience is a samadhi. ----------- I know the meditation community has its own understanding of the word samadhi. However, in the Theravada texts samadhi definitely does refer to a universal cetasika (universal mental state). Every momentary consciousness (citta), at every single moment of the day, contains the state of samadhi (one pointedness of mind). -------------------------------------------- Ken, are not the suttas Theravada texts? Samadhi is not spoken of that way there. --------------------------------------------- This universal, momentary form of samadhi is every bit as wonderful and profound as the samadhi known to the meditation community. (Even more so, in my opinion.) --------------------------------------------- Was the Buddha part of that "community"? In the following sutta he describes samadhi based on the divine abidings, and it is a concentration that is more than the fact of there being but one object of consciousness at any moment. That having of only one object of consciousness at any time *requires no development*, but samadhi must be developed. At least the Buddha says so! _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ AN 5.27 PTS: A iii 24 Samadhi Sutta: (Immeasurable) Concentration translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu _ÂĐ 1997–2009 _ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.027.than.html#F_termsOfUse\ ) "Wise & mindful, you should develop immeasurable concentration [i.e., concentration based on immeasurable good will, compassion, appreciation, or equanimity]. When, wise & mindful, one has developed immeasurable concentration, five realizations arise right within oneself. Which five? "The realization arises right within oneself that 'This concentration is blissful in the present and will result in bliss in the future.' "The realization arises right within oneself that 'This concentration is noble & not connected with the baits of the flesh.' "The realization arises right within oneself that 'This concentration is not obtained by base people.' "The realization arises right within oneself that 'This concentration is peaceful, exquisite, the acquiring of serenity, the attainment of unity, not kept in place by the fabrications of forceful restraint.' "The realization arises right within oneself that 'I enter into this concentration mindfully, and mindfully I emerge from it.' "Wise & mindful, you should develop immeasurable concentration. When, wise & mindful, one has developed immeasurable concentration, these five realizations arise right within oneself." ================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100841 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:52 pm Subject: All Being is Blinking! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Any conscious moment also dies immediately! Life, personality, pleasure, pain, endures joined in one conscious moment, that flicks by... Whether such ceased clusters of clinging are those of a dead or alive does not matter, they are all alike, momentarily gone never to return... No world is born and appears as manifest, if consciousness is not produced! Only when consciousness is present, does the world emerge! When consciousness momentarily dissolves, the world is dead and vanished! So both the being & the world starts and ends within each conscious moment! Both are reborn millions of times per second! Not only at conventional death.. This is how death also should be recollected, as the shortness of the moment. This is the highest sense this concept of conscious existence ever will allow... (Vism I 238, Nd I 42) Both 'Being' & 'World' occurs only as a discrete conscious moment! <....> No being is Static: In the blinking tunnel flows the process of re-becoming! Have a nice blinking day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <....> #100842 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:12 pm Subject: There is More to Samadhi/Ken (Re: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board.) upasaka_howard Hi again, Ken - In a message dated 9/24/2009 6:49:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Was the Buddha part of that "community"? In the following sutta he describes samadhi based on the divine abidings, and it is a concentration that is more than the fact of there being but one object of consciousness at any moment. That having of only one object of consciousness at any time *requires no development*, but samadhi must be developed. At least the Buddha says so! ================================ The following is from the Satipatthana Sutta: "When the mind is constricted, he discerns that the mind is constricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released. There is always but one object of consciousness. But there is NOT always concentration. Note the Buddha saying in the foregoing: "When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated." With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100843 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:32 am Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" > wrote: > > > > <. . .> > > > > Hi Freawaru, > > > > > > As you rightly say the suttas describe states and experiences. They > > > don't give instructions on how to enter them. Why not? Because we > >have> *already* entered them. > > > > Hello Ken. Have you entered Jhanas? What about Aruppa stages? 8 > liberations? What about kasinas, and nimittas? > ------ > > Hi Alex and Freawaru, > > The whole purpose of the Dhamma is to teach us to know the present, > conditioned reality. Whatever that reality might be! > > If the present conditioned reality is jhana citta, then it can (thanks > to the Dhamma) be known for what it is. > > In my case I can be sure it isn't jhana citta. Nor has it ever been in > this lifetime. Nor will it be. But the Buddha described jhana anyway - > for the benefit of those who did (or would) experience it. > > Ken H Hello KenH, But what about your statement that "Because we have *already* entered them.". Did you enter Jhana, aruppa, nimitta, 8 vimokkhas and so on? Jhana is important as it is part of N8P, not Noble 7fold path and neither a noble 1 fold path. With metta, Alex #100844 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. truth_aerator Dear freawaru80 and all interested, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "freawaru80" wrote: > > Mindfulness of the Body > > /Monks, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body > > encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing. Just as > > whoever pervades the great ocean with his awareness encompasses whatever > > rivulets flow down into the ocean, in the same way, whoever develops & > > pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities > > are on the side of clear knowing./ > > (From the Kayagatasati Sutta) > > > > Body (kaya) does not always refer to the physical body. It is more an abstract, technical term. Like in math, you know, the body of complex numbers and all those. There are purely mental kayas and they are not like dream bodies or astral bodies that still resemble the physical one in certain ways. > > Freawaru > It is true that in some cases word kaya (body) is used in other ways. ex: phassakaya - a "body" of contacts. However it is also important to know the CONTEXT where the word is used. In kayagatasati or kaya satipatthana the "body" has 4 postures (standing, walking, sitting, lying) atleast 31 bodyparts, 4 elements, can decompose in a cemetery. Kinda hard to re-interpret it as anything other than literal filthy flesh & blood body of ours containing many unpleasant parts. This is also why I have provided another quote from MN39 and other suttas about sitting crosslegged, under shade of the tree, in caves and so on - to show that the context of the body and bodily seclusion means what it says. With metta, Alex #100845 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Freawaru) - > > In a message dated 9/24/2009 5:26:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > <. . .> > I know the meditation community has its own understanding of the word > samadhi. However, in the Theravada texts samadhi definitely does refer > to a universal cetasika (universal mental state). Every momentary > consciousness (citta), at every single moment of the day, contains the > state of samadhi (one pointedness of mind). > -------------------------------------------- > Ken, are not the suttas Theravada texts? Samadhi is not spoken of > that way there. > --------------------------------------------- Hi Howard, I assure you it is. Don't forget there are as many types of samadhi as there are types of citta. If the citta is supramundane [mundane wholesome, unwholesome, resultant or purely functional] so too is its accompanying samadhi. ------------- KH: > > This universal, momentary form of samadhi is every bit as wonderful and profound as the samadhi known to the meditation community. (Even more so, in my opinion.) H: > Was the Buddha part of that "community"? ------------ No, as I was saying to Freawaru, the Buddha taught a way of understanding the presently arisen state, not a way of doing. --------------------- H: > In the following sutta he describes samadhi based on the divine abidings, and it is a concentration that is more than the fact of there being but one object of consciousness at any moment. That having of only one object of consciousness at any time *requires no development*, but samadhi must be developed. At least the Buddhasays so! --------------------- All of these states referred to in the suttas are momentary ( conditioned). The states of divine abiding are developed by panna. Concentration that is conditioned by, and accompanies, panna is samma-samadhi. Ken H #100846 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:27 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (54) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ Ruupas can be classified as sabhaava ruupas, ruupas with their own distinct nature (sa meaning: with, bhaava meaning: nature) and asabhaava ruupas, ruupas without their own distinct nature. The eight inseparable ruupas are sabhaava ruupas, they each have their own distinct nature and characteristic. Bodily intimation and speech intimation are ruupas conditioned by citta, but these two kinds of ruupa are not ruupas with their own distinct nature and characteristic. They are, as the "Atthasaalinii" expresses it, a "certain, unique change" in the great elements which are produced by citta and which are the condition for the two kinds of intimation. They are qualities of ruupa and therefore, asabhaava ruupas. The eight inseparable ruupas on which the two kinds of intimation depend are produced by citta, according to the "Atthasaalinii" (II, Book II, Part I, Ch 3, 337). Do we realize whether speech intimation is conditioned by kusala citta or by akusala citta? We may know in theory that we speak with akusala citta when our objective is not wholesomeness, such as generosity, kindness or the development of understanding of the Buddha’s teachings, but do we realize this at the moments we speak? Even when akusala kamma through speech, such as lying or slandering, is not committed, we may still speak with akusala citta. We may find out that often our speech is motivated by akusala citta. We speak with cittas rooted in attachment when we want to gain something, when we want to be liked or admired by others. With this objective we may even tell "tales" about others, ridicule or denigrate them. We are attached to speech and we often chatter just in order to keep the conversation going. We tend to feel lonely when there is silence. Usually we do not consider whether what we say is beneficial or not. We have to speak to others when we organize our work in the office or at home. Do we realize whether there are at such moments kusala cittas or akusala cittas? When we lie we commit akusala kamma through speech. ------------------------------ with metta, Han #100847 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:53 am Subject: Re: personal news and Dhamma. kenhowardau Hi Nina, Congratulations to Lodewijk on the publication of his memoirs. ------ <. . .> N: > Lodewijk stressed personal diplomacy: > in Vienna the representative of Iran and also the one from Irak were > despised by other diplomats. We made friends with them, invited them, ------- It is so hard, isn't it, to know kusala from akusala? There is so much dust in the eyes of us ordinary folk. Even a community of career diplomats (highly trained in correct behaviour) cannot always see when they are behaving badly. I recently argued (unsuccessfully) with Sarah that, without satipatthana, it was impossible to learn morality. I'll admit that was a bit extreme. Even so, it must be so much harder when we don't know that good and evil mental states are, in fact, absolute realities. They are independent of our mere opinions, clever reasoning and wishful thinking. Ken H #100848 From: "colette" Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:36 pm Subject: Re: Successful Remembering! ksheri3 Hi, I am greatful that you see and understand my statements, my rants, my raves, my isolated positions of PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE which create and manifest this illusion we call life. I'm really glad that you chose to follow up my recent post with this post. I know that my complaints are soooooooooo tiny and soooooooo miniscule that 99% of the sangha and/or our readership here will say that it's a problem with my own stupidity, HOWEVER, you strike at the heart of many of my problems that I have to deal with that other people have and they ascribe to me or to any other person outside themselves: FAILURE and SUCCESS. I am constantly bothered, every day, and every second that I have to deal with people, that they cognize success as being <....> glorified, glamorized, agreed with, etc. That is the only way they can be dealt with. I cannot have friendships I if bring forth "other" aspects that a person does not honor and does not glorify, masturbate, gratify, themselves. For instance, way back in the early millenium I was given a site where I could read from three "believers" of a system of thought: one from the area where my parents were from, who was a Free And Accepted Mason, then from Sam WEbster who was/is a member of the Board of Directors of the Golden Dawn Society, and the third was from Bill Heidrick who was a member of the Ordo Templi Orientus as the group's SECRETARY. While I could not possibly have any type of conversation with the F & A Mason from my parents neck of the woods, I have had very profound and illuminating talks with Webster and Heidrick. Heidrick, however, showed me a very big problem when I raised the issue of KARMA. He, Bill Heidrick, could not accept the fact that I brought Karma into the discussion and a factor in the rationale for operations. Why is karma so bad? What is "success"? What is "failure"? It's all relative! There is no single point that creationists strive to obtain. Why is it so impossible for a person to accept their ignorance and responsibility for their actions? Why do they need a creator diety to fall upon? colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > How to Dwell abiding in Successful Recollection: > #100849 From: "colette" Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. ksheri3 Hi freawaru80, Savasana, my spelling and recall is A MISS, so please excuse my miss spelling, if you choose to search for such a condition then google: yoga death posture. Death posture is how I came to know this from Chaos magic and A.O.Spare, however, this is a very usual and typical posture to acquire and use in the meditational process. Of Course I am gonna be chastised by those sticklers that dictate that this or that ASANA or this or that MUDRA is the actual way to meditate but they are confined, they are constrained, they are enclosed, without the ability to fully appreciate the depth of the meditational experience. > I don't have to do anything. Because of this dayly life is meditation. colette: you've done it. You set the parameters for your meditational practice. You stated that you do not have to do anything. You gave the CAUSE for this as being your "dayly life is meditation". BINGO. The Death Posture is your best bet. It's completely natural and maintains your continuity of consciousness. > No need to sit (though this is sometimes interesting, too). day colette: okay, you've given a PREREQUISITE for meditation as being "sitting". Well, that is one position that is useful in the meditational process however there is only the HERE & NOW therefore you don't really need this or that position to meditate in since you already stated that this is your "dayly life". You have to remember, though, that "contemplation" and "meditation" are two different things. Although we all contemplate every day and every second meditation is different. Meditation is deliberate. Meditation is thoughtful. (Just a quick joke based upon my use of the concept of "thoughtful" full of the thoughts of EMPTINESS shunyata, no?) snicker snicker. Sure, you can apply the technique of A.O.Spare and his technique of the DEATH POSTURE but he is not the first person to manifest this position and this practice. Chaos magic is a specific magic used, primarily by the Temple of Psychic Youth, aka TOPY, and it was/is specifically applied in the manifestation of sex magic. While the Death Posture was brobably cognized, rationalized, and instituted, immediately after the practice of meditation was cognized, long before the Buddha was even born, you have to realize that WEstern practitioners are generally far from the monastic practices of meditation which have kept Buddhism alive and thriving for all these empty years, but the deviant practices of meditation which you speak of here, the Death Posture being one of them, have long since been analysed and documented as reasonable practices and therefore a simple "search" on/in google will aford you more than enough info on this Asana, POSTURE, POSITION, MUDRA, ETC. > Do you experience it in dream state, too? Now you speak of a totally different condition of consciousness. What do you consider the dream state to be? How can cognize the condition of consciousness that you are speaking of in terms of a "dream state"? <...> I;d like to return and finish my reply tomorrow, Thank you. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "freawaru80" wrote: > > Insight is actually the development of understanding of all that is > > real in our daily life: the different physical phenomena and mental > > phenomena that occur and appear through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, > > body and mind. > > Yes. I know that you develloped this. It has happend to me, too. It grows. It seems as if on it's own. I don't have to do anything. Because of this dayly life is meditation. No need to sit (though this is sometimes interesting, too). Do you experience it in dream state, too? I have several questions regarding sati-sampajanna during non-wake states. <...> #100850 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: personal news and Dhamma. nilovg Dear Ken, Op 25-sep-2009, om 5:53 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > I recently argued (unsuccessfully) with Sarah that, without > satipatthana, it was impossible to learn morality. I'll admit that > was a > bit extreme. Even so, it must be so much harder when we don't know > that > good and evil mental states are, in fact, absolute realities. They are > independent of our mere opinions, clever reasoning and wishful > thinking. ------- N: I was just thinking about your question on daana that in the ultimate sense there is no thing to be given, no giver, no receiver. Even when we cannot realize this yet directly, even understanding this intellectually is helpful, it can condition true generosity. I was stingy about a gift, found it rather costly. Then I thought of you: well, the thing given is only impermanent ruupas, why should there be stinginess. The sotaapanna who has perfectly realized this has no more conditions for stinginess. What about yourself? In how far does it help you in your daily life to realize all the time that there are only naama and ruupa? Say, when you are surfing, do you? Nina. #100851 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. nilovg Dear Freawaru, Op 24-sep-2009, om 16:26 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > Insight is actually the development of understanding of all that is > > real in our daily life: the different physical phenomena and mental > > phenomena that occur and appear through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, > > body and mind. > > Yes. I know that you develloped this. It has happend to me, too. It > grows. It seems as if on it's own. I don't have to do anything. > Because of this dayly life is meditation. No need to sit (though > this is sometimes interesting, too). Do you experience it in dream > state, too? I have several questions regarding sati-sampajanna > during non-wake states. -------- N: Shall we discuss first about wake states, that is already a difficult subject, I think. Ken H explained to you about samaadhi, or one-pointedness. The term concentration may create confusion. It is a mental factor accompanying every citta, every moment of consciousness, as Ken explained. To understand more about this, let us first talk about citta. Citta experiences an object and it needs several mental factors, cetasikas, that accompany it and assist it in cognizing an object. Some cetasikas accompany every type of citta, like feeling, remembrance and also samaadhi that helps citta to focus on the object. Citta can be of four classes or jaatis: kusala, akusala, vipaaka (result of kamma) and kiriya, that is neither cause nore result. When you enjoy dance, there is attachment to it, and that means that the citta is akusala. When you study or work, and the citta is not intent on generosity, helping others, observing precepts, mental development, and then the citta is akusala. Whenever you like or dislike something, the citta is akusala. This is conditioned, it arises because we accumulated such inclinations in the past. The Buddha explained that understanding of the different moments of our life is the most important. We cannot prevent akusala at will, but, it can be understood as a conditioned reality. To come back to concentration: The cetasikas that accompany a citta are of the same class as the citta: when citta with attachment arises and is thus akusala, also the accompanying samaadhi is akusala. The development of insight is not observing, there may still be an idea of self who observes, even when it seems to arise on its own. The right conditions for insight are listening, discussing, intellectual understanding of the realities that appear through the six doors. Their characteristics, when they appear one at a time, have to be understood as just conditioned dhammas, not a thing, not a whole, not a person. Nina. #100852 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:03 am Subject: Alex As Another Rare Voie of Traditional Theravada Deserving Saadhu 3 Times abhidhammika Hello Alex, Freawaru, Howard, Sarah, Nina, Jon, Robert K, Chris How have you been? Alex wrote: "I have heard that vipassana can happen in any situation, but I do not bet on it. While it is true that nama-rupa is present in all of kamaloka, the fact is that hell beings can't do vipassana, animals can't, hungry ghosts can't, people being very busy with taxes and business affairs cannot do really strong insight WHILE that busyness is occurring. This is one of the reasons the Buddha praised physical solitude." Alex, you have absolutely the Right View on the issue, which KS folks seem to be lacking. Alex, you have given me an occasion to recite: Saadhu, Saadhu, Saadhu! Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org PS- Hello Freawaru, You could be the newest voice of Traditional Theravada Teachings who could easily challenge wrong-footed KS folks on dsg. :-) You can expect to receive Saadhu 3 times from me whenever you express outstanding Theravada views like Howard and Alex do regularly. Cheers! Suan Lu Zaw #100853 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:48 am Subject: The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, This is a book I wrote long ago and I think that it will be helpful also for beginners. I shall post it in sections. ------- Chapter I Introduction Why are we in this life? Why do we have to suffer? Men of all times conceived philosophical systems which could explain the reason for their existence and give a solution to the problem of suffering. Religions also try to give an answer to the problem of suffering in teaching that people should have faith in God and live according to His commandments; consequently one can, after death, enjoy eternal bliss in heaven. The Buddha gave his own, unique answer to the problem of suffering. He taught that the cause of suffering is within man, namely his own faults and defilements, and not in the external situation. He explained that only profound knowledge of his own mind and of all phenomena of his life can lead to the end of suffering. We read in the Buddhist scriptures (Kindred Sayings I, Chapter III, Kosala, Part 3, §3, The World) that King Pasenadi had a conversation with the Buddha at Såvatthí about the cause of suffering. We read: “…How many kinds of things, lord, that happen in the world, make for trouble, for suffering, for distress?” “Three things, sire, happen of that nature. What are the three? Greed, hate, and delusion—these three make for trouble, for suffering, for distress…” The outward circumstances cannot be changed, but the inward attitude towards the vicissitudes of life can be changed. Wisdom can be developed and this can eventually eradicate completely greed, hate and delusion. This wisdom is not developed by speculation about the truth of life, it is developed through the direct experience of the phenomena of life as they really are, including one’s own mental states. That is the Path the Buddha taught, but it takes time to understand how it is to be developed. ----------- Nina. #100854 From: "freawaru80" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:32 am Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. freawaru80 Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > I know the meditation community has its own understanding of the word > samadhi. Samadhi is an ancient term. The Buddha didn't change it as it would have confused his students at his time. > However, in the Theravada texts samadhi definitely does refer > to a universal cetasika (universal mental state). And you think just about everybody has access to such a universal cetasika? Universal= Brahma. Can you give me a quote from the Theravada texts that define samadhi in your way and not mine? > Every momentary > consciousness (citta), at every single moment of the day, contains the > state of samadhi (one pointedness of mind). As I said: just for an arahant. > This universal, momentary form of samadhi is every bit as wonderful and > profound as the samadhi known to the meditation community. (Even more > so, in my opinion.) Momentary concentration jumps from one object to the next, I agree. But only when it does so lucidly one experiences a degree of samadhi. This is one of the goals of formal meditation: to reach a lasting sati-sampajanna. I have met only few people so far who have develloped it. When it happens there is bliss in pain, calm in anger, fearlessness in fear. > Yes, meditation is a fascinating topic, but I hope you will come to see > that the Theravada Dhamma is even more fascinating. I enjoy reading and discussing the suttas. THough often I feel the translations are confusing. > Every momentary > consciousness (citta) > has just one object (arammana). Momentary seeing > consciousness (cakkhu-citta) experiences *only* momentary visible object > (cakkhu-arammana): momentary hearing consciousness (sota-citta) > experiences *only* momentary audible object (sota-arammana): and so on > for the nose, tongue, body and mind consciousnesses. This profound, > complete one-pointedness of mind is samadhi. And it is happening right > now. But how many people are aware of it? This process happens very fast (thus momentary). Only when it is really a samadhi one is aware of it because discernment goes on hyper-speed, too. It is not possible to assume that everything written in the suttas or Abhidhamma is correct for everybody. The suttas describe different levels of experience and devellopment. Abhidhamma describes how it appears to someone who has already develloped wisdom and insight. For such a person momentary samadhi happens. And if he or she is an arahant it is lasting. Freawaru #100855 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. sarahprocter... Hi Howard, You've been discussing AN 9s, 36 with Nina: >>N: You read: destruction of the cankers is dependent on the first jhaana, etc, and see it thus: jhaana is essential, perhaps indispensable, for every one who strives after arahatship. I see it differently: in the whole context plus commentary: here someone uses jhaana as base for insight and for him jhaana is helpful, valuable. In that sense the word dependent can be used. I would not say: everyone must cultivate jhaana. ================================ H:> Thank you for your reply, Nina. It seems we strongly disagree on this matter. It seems to me that you also disagree with the clear word of the Buddha on this matter also. **** S: Let me share a little from some of B.Bodhi's notes on this sutta, no 181 "The Destruction of the Taints" in his "Numerical Discourses of the Buddha": "I declare, O monks, that the destruction of the taints occurs in dependence on the first jhaana, the second jhaana, the third jhaana, the fourth jhaana; in dependence on the base of the infinity of space, the base of the infinity of consciousness, the base of nothingness, the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; in dependence on the cessation of perception and feeling" BB note: "In what follows the Buddha will show the attainment of arahantship (or the state of non-returning) through a method that employs tranquillity as a basis for insight. The method described seems to correspond to 'insight preceded by tranquillity', though it might also be interpreted as 'tranquillity and insight joined in pairs' (Text 83)." S: Text 83 refers to the Yuganaddha Sutta which we've discussed here at length. Briefly, descriptions are given of: a) insight preceded by tranquillity, b) tranquillity preceded by insight, c) tranquillity and insight joined in pairs, d)insight only. (Lots more detail in U.P. under "Yuganadha"). In other words, just like us, those who attained arahatship had different accumulations, different tendencies as Nina pointed out. Sariputta's tendencies were different from Maha Moggalana's. Whilst here insight is preceded by jhana and the mental states associated with that jhana are understood as mere impermanent khandhas, in other suttas, descriptions of attainment are given for other kinds of attainment, not always referring to jhana preceding insight. What is clear is that the various dhammas, the dhatus, the khandhas, have to be understood as anicca, dukkha and anatta for all. "Whatever states are included there comprised by form, feeling, perception, volitional formations or consciousness: he views those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a boil, as a dart, as misery, as affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as empty, as non-self. "Having viewed them thus, his mind then turns away from those states and focuses upon the deathless element: 'This is peaceful, this is sublime: that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbaana." BB's note: This striking passage shows the transition from the highest level of insight to the supramundane path. When, by insight, the monk has fully fathomed the afflictive nature of the five aggregates, his mind turns away from all conditioned phenomena and focuses upon Nibbaana, 'the deathless element', as the only genuine escape from conditioned existence. He then attains arahatship; but if a single clinging to that experience remains, a subtle enjoyment of it, he becomes a non-returner, who attains parinibbaana after being reborn in a celestial realm." On the last paragraph with regard to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception which we discussed at length before (Anupada Sutta discussion), there is the same differentiation or exclusion from insight as Nina discussed with you too. BB's note: "The base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception is too subtle to be explored by insight knowledge, and the cessation of perception and feeling is altogether devoid of mental constituents. Thus these two attainments cannot be directly taken as objects for investigation with insight. But both can be used as means for achieving temporary purification of the mind, on the basis of which the meditator can practise insight meditation on grosser objects and thereby attain arahantship." S: Rather than referring to what is "used" as basis by "the meditator", I'd rather stress the conditioned nature of all impermanent dhammas. Metta Sarah ======= #100856 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right understanding of dana. /was . . . sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- On Mon, 21/9/09, kenhowardau wrote: ------------ ---- <. . .> KH: > >To identify any particular kamma-patha would be to directly know various things that occurred over various moments. (Was the gift a suitable one? was it willingly offered? was it accepted? . . .) (Was the sentient being who was killed actually present? was there an intention to kill that particular being? did he die as a result? . . ) > > >S: > Yes, without anything close to omniscient wisdom, this is all thinking for us. ------------ ------ K:> I think I know what you mean. But then, you could have written, "Yes, *even with* omniscient wisdom this would be all thinking," and I would still have said I think I know what you mean. :-) .... S: ...but I wouldn't go that far;-) Remember all those quotes on omniscience (see "Useful Posts - omniscience") Here's one from the Sub-cy to the Brahmajaala Sutta (transl. by B.Bodhi, BPS,p.123): "Query: .....how is possible for a single, limited type of knowledge to penetrate without omission the entire range of the knowable with its inconceivable, immeasurable sub-divisions? "Reply: Who says the Buddha-knowledge is limited? Like the knowable itself the Buddha-knowledge is infinite. For it is said: 'As far as that knowledge extends, so far does the knowable extend; as far as the knowable extends, so far does that knowledge extend' (Pts.1.i.72). It may be objected that if the knowable, with its numerous sub-divisions by way of class, plane, specific nature, etc., and by way of direction, place, time, etc., is apprehended in succession, it is impossible to penetrate it in its totality, without remainder. "But that is not so. Why? Because whatever it is that the Exalted One wishes to know, whether in its entirety or in part, that he knows by direct experience through the unimpeded coursing (of his knowledge) in that object." .... K:>I think you are saying that [with omniscient wisdom] there would be way of knowing I was in Australia that would not be just thinking. >I'll have to think about that. :-) ... S: I don't think I mentioned 'omniscience' and 'Australia' in the same breath, but since you've raised it, see above:-). We can't over-estimate a Buddha's direct knowledge of all realities. Metta Sarah ======== #100857 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Fri, 25/9/09, sarah abbott wrote: >You've been discussing AN 9s, 36 with Nina: ... S: Just as I finished typing, I realised I'd typed and discussed the same passages before:-). If you have time, you may care to look at the following also: #80429, #93588 In any case, I appreciated your lively discussion with Nina! No need for agreements:-)). Metta Sarah ====== #100858 From: "freawaru80" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. freawaru80 Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N: Shall we discuss first about wake states, that is already a > difficult subject, I think. If you prefer... > Ken H explained to you about samaadhi, or one-pointedness. The term > concentration may create confusion. It is a mental factor > accompanying every citta, every moment of consciousness, as Ken > explained. Samadhi does not accompany every citta or vinnnana in everybody. Only for those who have develloped wisdom and insight. For then the citta is lucid. That is the difference. Abhidhamma describes how things are when seen from such a lucid perspective. When being aware of every moment citta arises, when guarding the sense doors. For most people ho samadhi accompanies vinnana, citta, nama and rupa. > Citta experiences an object and it needs several mental factors, > cetasikas, that accompany it and assist it in cognizing an object. > Some cetasikas accompany every type of citta, like feeling, > remembrance and also samaadhi that helps citta to focus on the object. When you speak of feeling (vedana) do you refer to the feeling that arises as part of the personality patterns or do you refer to the impersonal feelings, to those that arise (and are either enhanced or filtered) before contacting the personality? > Citta can be of four classes or jaatis: kusala, akusala, vipaaka > (result of kamma) and kiriya, that is neither cause nore result. > When you enjoy dance, there is attachment to it, and that means that > the citta is akusala. When you study or work, and the citta is not > intent on generosity, helping others, observing precepts, mental > development, and then the citta is akusala. Whenever you like or > dislike something, the citta is akusala. This is conditioned, it > arises because we accumulated such inclinations in the past. Looks here as if you mean the personality patterns. Right? > The > Buddha explained that understanding of the different moments of our > life is the most important. We cannot prevent akusala at will, but, > it can be understood as a conditioned reality. > To come back to concentration: The cetasikas that accompany a citta > are of the same class as the citta: when citta with attachment arises > and is thus akusala, also the accompanying samaadhi is akusala. Yes, makes sense. Normal samadhi and jhana are akusala, they do not lead to Liberation (of the Buddha's teachers would have been Buddhas themselves). > The development of insight is not observing, there may still be an > idea of self who observes, even when it seems to arise on its own. > The right conditions for insight are listening, discussing, > intellectual understanding I do not understand this. Most people are very much identified with their idea of self when listening, discussing and intellectual understanding. How should this lead to insight? When discussing most people want to win the argument. They do not open themselves to what the discussion partner tries to say but focus on how to beat him or her with own arguments. The same is true for listening: in most people there are filters that alter what they have heard into what they want to hear (for good or bad). And intellectual understanding never leaves the concepts our mind construes. How can one understand, say, the elements in this way? They are not concepts and far beyond the reach of intellectual understanding. To devellop insight one needs right view. And right view is gained (among other ways) by listening to Dhamma. How does one listen to Dhamma? When a Dhamma term is heard the reality of it appears to the Listener and he or she experiences the dhamma that term describes in a lucid way. An example: if such a Listener hears "air" his discernment zeros in into the experience and observation of this specific non-concept. It takes two factors to Listen to Dhamma: first the establishment of sati-sampajanna that discerns on a high speed and second the knowledge of what the terms mean. This knowledge can only be gained by experience. How to gain knowlege about "Air" for example is described in the Visuddhimagga. When one has gained experiental Knowledge about Air sati-sampajanna will discern it whenever it is mentioned and one can Listen to Dhamma (at least to everything about Air). Freawaru #100859 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anattalakkhana Sutta - Venerable Mahaasi Sayaadaw sarahprocter... Dear Chew, Butting in.... --- On Mon, 21/9/09, Sadhu Chew wrote: >Sentences from the book as below: >"When vipassanaa is very strong, the process does not advance till javana stage. It abruptly ends after two or three thought moments of votthapana and sink back to the bhavanga level. This is in accordance with the meditation instruction given to the Venerable Pothila by the young novice who instructed that the process of cognition with respect to five-door consciousness should not sink to javana stage." >What do you think on the above sentences? >p.s. You can get the sentences at the below link: http://www.buddhane t.net/budsas/ ebud/mahasi- anat/anat04. htm [CONSCIOUSNESS LIKENED TO A CONJURER'S TRICK] ... S: With which cittas do you understand vipassanaa (or any kind of pa~n~naa, for that matter) to arise? Have you ever seen any Abhidhamma support for such an idea as that quoted? Do any kinds of cittas "sink back"? Metta Sarah ========= #100860 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Hi Azita & pt, --- On Sun, 20/9/09, gazita2002 wrote: >pt: 3. Either way, what determines which particular nimitta out of those 33 (or 5) is the actual object of cittas of the subsequent mind-door process? >azita: conditions determine which one. Mayb someone else can elaborate on that, bec. I have no idea what the condition might be. Kamma could be one condition. Accumulations for kusala/akusala could be another condition. Now I'm guessing :-) ... S: The main condition determining which which nimitta the citta and sanna will mark will depend on accumulations, natural decisive support condition. But yes, the qu is a little more complicated because of the misunderstanding. pt may wish to re-state it. Metta Sarah ====== #100861 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Dear pt, Thx for asking Nina and I to clarify comments. --- On Sun, 20/9/09, ptaus1 wrote: >I've been reading through the useful posts on nimitta - there's one topic that's often mentioned, but I can't really understand it: >Sarah (#65848): Just to add to this, at each moment now, sanna makes a sign of the 5 khandhas. This is why each khandha has its nimitta, because the khandhas arise and fall away so fast that without highly developed panna, it has to be the 'sign' that is marked, just like in the example given in the texts of the swirling fire-stick. ... S: It should have said: "...at each moment now, sanna marks a sign of one of the 5 khandhas. Each khandha has its nimitta, because the khandhas arise and fall away so fast that without highly developed panna, it has to be the 'sign' that is marked, just like in the example given in the texts of the swirling fire-stick. I appreciate your careful study and reflections. Metta Sarah ======== #100862 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A not so short Hello sarahprocter... Dear Freewaru, Many thanks for your introduction. Much appreciated. I'm glad to see you've made yourself very much at home and that're already discussing many points with other friends here. --- On Wed, 23/9/09, freawaru80 wrote: >I am German so please be patient with my English ;) ... S: No problem with your English ;-) Do you live in Germany? ... > As you saw I made up my own terminology and theories. What I would like now is to learn the Buddhist one so I can switch to it. ... S: I think you're already doing this and considering what the various terms, such as 'nama', 'rupa', 'vipassana' mean. ... >The "state of pure observation" is clearly vipassana, ... S: I think it depends what is meant by 'pure observation'. Vipassana means insight or developed understanding of namas and rupas (mental and physical realities). ... >and what I named "hybrid state" is called sati-sampajanna (Clear Comprehension) by some Theravadan teachers (for example Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw and Ven. Nanavira Thera). ... S: Sati-sampajanna refers to the awareness and right understanding in the development of satipatthana or vipassana - again, the understanding of namas and rupas. This is not an 'observation' or 'labelling', but direct insight or understanding. ... >But there are still countless things I have no name for (never even named them myself) so I look for people who do not just know the theory but can point out a term or concept and know how it appears with insight by their own experience. ... S: As you've pointed out, it's not the name that matters in the end, but the understanding of what appears. However, we have to hear and consider a lot about what appears in order for such understanding to develop. Metta Sarah =========== #100863 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:14 pm Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. scottduncan2 Dear Freawaru (and Ken), Regarding: F: "...And you think just about everybody has access to such a universal cetasika? Universal= Brahma. Can you give me a quote from the Theravada texts that define samadhi in your way and not mine?..." Scott: 'Universal' in this sense simply refers to how the seven 'universal' mental factors (cetasikaa) - which are, phassa (contact), vedanaa (feeling), sa~n~naa (remembrance), cetanaa (volition), ekaggataa ( concentration or one-pointedness), jiivitindriya (life faculty), and manasikaara (attention) - arise with each and every moment of consciousness. Each has it's own characteristic and function in relation to an object. Each contributes to a moment of consciousness, arising conascently with citta. This particular way of categorizing mental factors is rather standard Abhidhamma. Below, consider the description of cittass'ekaggataa and that this particular mental factor, along with the other six universals, arise and fall away with each citta, lending each it's own particular characteristic and function to that particular moment of consciousness. Atthasaalinii (pp. 156-157): "Cittekaggataa is one-pointedness of mind, another name for concentration. Regarding its characteristic, etc., the Commentary has the following: - Concentration has the characteristic of leadership, also of non-distraction. As the dome of a gabled house go to the ridgepole, incline toward the ridgepole, meet at the ridgepole, the ridgepole is called chief among them; so, your majesty, all moral states incline towards concentration, slope towards concentration; concentration is called the chief among them (Mil. i. 60). And as the king in battle goes wherever the army is giving way, and the army wherever he has gone becomes reinforced and - the hostile army being broken - follow the king, so concentration, from not allowing the co-existent states from being thrown out and scattered, has non-distraction as characteristic. Here is another explanation: This concentration, known as one-pointedness of mind, has non-scattering (of itself) or non-distraction (of associated states) as characteristic, the welding together of the co-existent states as function, as water kneads bath powder into a paste, and peace of mind or knowledge as manifestation..." Sincerely, Scott. #100864 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:40 pm Subject: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! abhidhammika Warning: I will be carrying out the duties of a traditional Theravada teacher in this post. As such, it will contain my teachings in the form of fresh translations of some parts of Abhdhamma texts of both canonical and commentarial nature, which are unlikely to be available elsewhere. Some KS folks wishing to eschew a traditional Theravada teacher like me or being scared of becoming anonymous students of such a Theravada teacher, now is your chance to leave without reading on further. Ignoring this warning and getting your egos unnecessarily injured by reading the contents of this post should be your own doing and responsibility. You have been humanely forewarned! ____________________________________________________ Hello Sarah, Howard, Freawaru, Alex, Nina, Jon, Robert K, Lukas, Chris F How have you been? Sarah, I know you are a busy layperson with various household commitments. You may not be expected to have learnt Pali language to a level advanced enough to be able to read A.t.thasaalinii from start to finish. Or, you may not even be expected to have enough time to be able to read A.t.thasaalinii English translation from the prologue to the epilogue. But, your naivety exceeded my expectation! Sarah wrote: "He understood the conditioned nature of dhammas, the causes of insight development which did not include setting special rules or undertaking a formal practice of any kind on the boat." What a shallow, uninformed, wrong speculation (micchaasankappo) about a Pacchimabhaviko, one having the last existence! For starter, let me teach you something regarding the function of A.t.thasaalinii. "Kamma.t.thaanaani sabbaani, cariyaabhiņņaa vipassanaa; visuddhimagge panidam, yasmaa sabbam pakaasitam. Tasmaa tam aggahetvaana, sakalaayapi tantiyaa; padaanukkamato eva, karissaamatthava.n.nanam." Ganthaarambhakathaa, A.t.thasaalinii. "All the formal samatha methods, character analysis, supernormal knowledge, and vipassanaa methods, since all this practice matter had been expounded in Visuddhimaggo, without taking it up (here again in A.t.thasaalinii), all the terms (in Dhammasanganii) will I make the exposition of only as they appear one after another." From Prologue verses to A.t.thasaalinii. So, we could not expect Buddhaghosa to provide, in A.t.thasaalinii, information on how Mahaa Gatigamiyatissadatta Thero would have gone through the formal samatha and vipassanaa methods as prior preparatory undertaking (pubbabhaagapa.tipadaa) for more than 20 years. You may wonder where the figure `more than 20 years' come from. Here is another teaching about the title term `thero'. If a Buddhist monk is addressable as `thero', this title indicates that the monk has been ordained for 10 or more than 10 years, but fewer than 20 years. If, on the other hand, the monk is addressable as `mahaa thero', this title indicates that he has been ordained for 20 or more than 20 years. Buddhaghosa has addressed Venerable Gatigamiyatissadatta, as Mahaa Gatigamiyatissadatta Thero in A.t.thasaalinii. This shows that the monk in the story had been ordained for 20 or more than 20 years. Lukas wrote, and Sarah agreed and reproduced: "if we hear the Abhidhamma we can realize how accurate it is. How according to realities it is. No need to develop siila first, no need to do anything. No siila first. We can sit on the deck of the boat and in one moment there can be understanding of realities, without doing anything. This is so accurate. This is the Full Dhamma , the Abhidhamma." Suan censured both Lukas and Sarah, and held them responsible for the above wrong speech (micchaavaacaa). Why was Luka's assertion (accepted by Sarah) the wrong speech? That was because Mahaa thero in the story had been undertaking the formal practice of the Vinaya siila, the highest–level type, for 20 or more years! Sarah, you need to own up to the fact that what Lukas wrote was merely his own personal opinion (attanomati) and misrepresented Abhidhamma teachings. The Buddha's teachings and instructions on the formal practices of siila found in Suttanta Pi.taka and Vinya Pi.taka do not contradict those formal practices found in Abhidhamma Pi.taka. In fact, treatment of siila in Abhidhamma Pi.taka is even more serious and formalised. Please see `Sikkhaapadavibhango' in Vibhango, the Second Book of Abhidhamma Pi.taka. We even find one of the paramatthadhammas (ultimate realities) being defined in terms of the three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa for nirvana. Please see Section 1008, Nikkhepaka.n.do, Dhammasanganii, the First Book of Abhidhamma Pi.taka. 1008. "Tattha katamaa vicikicchaa? Satthari kankhati vicikicchati, dhamme kankhati vicikicchati, sanghe kankhati vicikicchati, sikkhaaya kankhati vicikicchati, …." In the above Pali passage, we see the question `What is doubt? katamaa vicikicchaa?' The answer has been given as doubting or disbelieving the three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa for nirvana (sikkhaaya kankhati vicikicchati) – among others. The readers will notice that I have translated the term `sikkhaa' as the three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa. This is because sikkhaa means not only siila in this case, but also includes samatha and vipassanaa. The following comes from the commentary on this term in A.t.thasaalinii. `Tisso pana sikkhaa atthi nu kho natthii'ti kankhantopi, `tisso sikkhaa sikkhitapaccayena aanisamso atthi nu kho natthii'ti kankhantopi sikkhaaya kankhati naama.' `One who doubts whether or not there are three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa and one who doubts whether or not there is any advantage by the cause of undertaking the three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa represent doubting the three formal practices for nirvana.' Section 1008, Nikkhepaka.n.do, A.t.thasaalinii. The implications of the above definitions of the term `vicikicchaa' in Dhammasanganii and further elaborations on the term in A.t.thasaalinii are too bad for K Sujin, Sarah, Lucas and other like-minded KS folks. As long as K Sujin and her students or her associates keep disparaging the formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa, they are guilty of having doubt (vicikicchaa) about those practices and their advantages. As vicikicchaa appears only in ignorance-based consciousness (mohamuulacittam) which is an unhealthy and unwholesome type (akusalacittam), K Sujin and those sharing her views can be found to be committing the wrong speech (micchaavaacaa) as well as showing lack of understanding of Abhidhamma. In other words, every time K Sujin and her students criticize the formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa, they do disservice to the Buddha's traditional Theravada teachings. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Dear Lukas, --- On Sun, 6/9/09, szmicio wrote: >if we hear the Abhidhamma we can realize how accurate it is. How according to realities it is. No need to develop siila first, no need to do anything. No siila first. We can sit on the deck of the boat and in one moment there can be understanding of realities, without doing anything. This is so accurate. This is the Full Dhamma , the Abhidhamma. >This story was said in Atthasalini: <...> S: Yes, good comments and a nice quote. "We can sit on the deck of the boat and in one moment there can be understanding of realities, without doing anything." So true... It is only through the development of understanding that siila is developed and purified, after all. Keep sharing! Metta Sarah ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Howard, Suan (& Lukas), S: So this is an Elder who was undertaking a big journey to pay respect where the Buddha had become enlightened. He already appreciated and greatly revered the Patthaana and the extraordinary omniscient wisdom of the Buddha. He wasn't sitting on a boat in ignorance, wishing for gold! He understood the conditioned nature of dhammas, the causes of insight development which did not include setting special rules or undertaking a formal practice of any kind on the boat. Naturally, through his accumulated saddhaa and pa~n~naa, his reflections would turn to the Dhamma and to the nature of conditioned dhammaa in particular. ..... .... S: He didn't say to himself: "Oh, I must study the Abhidhamma text in silence for so many hours in order to become an arahat." He didn't say to himself, "Oh, I must go to the Bodhi tree in order to become enlightened." He didn't say to himself, "Oh, I must concentrate on my breath or a corpse or sit cross-legged in a forest or do any other special practice" in order to become enlightened. He simply and naturally reflected deeply on the jewel of the Teachings and penetrated the deep meaning then and there. I'm interested to know in what way this is "out of touch with traditional Theravada teachings", as Suan suggests. I would have thought that little was more "in touch" with the same teachings than what we read in the Atthasalinii. >H:> And two > > If we are interested in being "in touch" with "the traditional Theravada teachings" which Suan refers to, what we study in the Tiptiaka and ancient commentaries has to be in conformity. And those teachings have to refer to the dhammaa at this very moment. Now we're not on the "deck of a boat", we're sitting at a computer and there can be awareness and understanding right now, as Lukas suggested, but only if there has been enough careful consideration of what we're read and heard. > Metta Sarah #100865 From: "freawaru80" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:55 pm Subject: Re: Alex As Another Rare Voie of Traditional Theravada Deserving Saadhu 3 Times freawaru80 Hello Suan Lu Zaw, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > PS- Hello Freawaru, > > You could be the newest voice of Traditional Theravada Teachings who could easily challenge wrong-footed KS folks on dsg. :-) > > You can expect to receive Saadhu 3 times from me whenever you express outstanding Theravada views like Howard and Alex do regularly. > Thank you very much. That is really nice of you. :D But I fear I have not come here to challenge anyone. Nor do I feel ready to teach as I am not yet fluent in both modes of speaking. I had hoped to learn but if this proves to be impossible I will simply leave silently again. Freawaru #100866 From: "freawaru80" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. freawaru80 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > Dear Alex, > > It is true that in some cases word kaya (body) is used in other ways. > ex: phassakaya - a "body" of contacts. Exactly :) That what we usually consider to be our physical body is no different in this way. What we percieve as physical body is not the physical body at all but just a construct of our mind loosely based on sensory informations. This is why dream bodies can feel so real. > However it is also important to know the CONTEXT where the word is used. In kayagatasati or kaya satipatthana the "body" has 4 postures (standing, walking, sitting, lying) atleast 31 bodyparts, 4 elements, can decompose in a cemetery. But the construct can also stand, walk, sit, etc - in fact that is usually all we are aware of. And the construct can decompose, too, giving way to the direct perception of the senses of the physical body. Which one is meant in which sutta? > Kinda hard to re-interpret it as anything other than literal filthy flesh & blood body of ours containing many unpleasant parts. I think it is the construct that is made of unpleasant parts, not the real, physical one. Freawaru #100867 From: "freawaru80" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. freawaru80 Good points, Howard. thank you :D --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Freawaru) - > > In a message dated 9/24/2009 5:26:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > Hi Freawaru, > > ------ > <. . .> > KH: > > Right now there is experience. Consciousness is > experiencing > an object. Right now (as in every moment of consciousness) > there is > samadhi. > > > > > F: > Only for an arahant every experience is a samadhi. > ----------- > > I know the meditation community has its own understanding of the word > samadhi. However, in the Theravada texts samadhi definitely does refer > to a universal cetasika (universal mental state). Every momentary > consciousness (citta), at every single moment of the day, contains the > state of samadhi (one pointedness of mind). > -------------------------------------------- > Ken, are not the suttas Theravada texts? Samadhi is not spoken of > that way there. > --------------------------------------------- > > > > This universal, momentary form of samadhi is every bit as wonderful and > profound as the samadhi known to the meditation community. (Even more > so, in my opinion.) > --------------------------------------------- > Was the Buddha part of that "community"? In the following sutta he > describes samadhi based on the divine abidings, and it is a concentration > that is more than the fact of there being but one object of consciousness at > any moment. That having of only one object of consciousness at any time > *requires no development*, but samadhi must be developed. At least the Buddha > says so! > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > AN 5.27 > PTS: A iii 24 > > Samadhi Sutta: (Immeasurable) Concentration > > translated from the Pali by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu > _ÂĐ 1997â€"2009 _ > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.027.than.html#F_termsOfUse\ ) #100868 From: "freawaru80" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:01 pm Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. freawaru80 Dear Scott, thank you for the quote, it nicely illustrates what I mean: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Atthasaalinii (pp. 156-157): > > "Cittekaggataa is one-pointedness of mind, another name for concentration. Regarding its characteristic, etc., the Commentary has the following: - Concentration has the characteristic of leadership, also of non-distraction. As the dome of a gabled house go to the ridgepole, incline toward the ridgepole, meet at the ridgepole, the ridgepole is called chief among them; so, your majesty, all moral states incline towards concentration, slope towards concentration; concentration is called the chief among them (Mil. i. 60). And as the king in battle goes wherever the army is giving way, and the army wherever he has gone becomes reinforced and - the hostile army being broken - follow the king, so concentration, from not allowing the co-existent states from being thrown out and scattered, has non-distraction as characteristic. Here is another explanation: This concentration, known as one-pointedness of mind, has non-scattering (of itself) or non-distraction (of associated states) as characteristic, the welding together of the co-existent states as function, as water kneads bath powder into a paste, and peace of mind or knowledge as manifestation..." > This describes the characteristics of samadhi (ekaggataa): it's control is compared to leadership or being a king conquering a hostile army and taking it over. Also, it mentions the condition called sila (often translated as moral) "all moral states incline towards concentration" implies that non-moral states do not. Here samadhi and ekaggataa are clearly uses as in yoga and meditation. Samadhi does not accompany every citta just if sila is present. One can easily recognize it by to the control (king) it gives. No control over a specific citta means no samadhi accompanying it. Freawaru #100869 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:22 pm Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. scottduncan2 Dear Freawaru Regarding: F: "thank you for the quote, it nicely illustrates what I mean..." Scott: Okay. Sincerely, Scott. #100870 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:43 pm Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. kenhowardau Hi Freawaru, -------------- <. . .> F: > Samadhi is an ancient term. The Buddha didn't change it as it would have confused his students at his time. --------------- That's true to an extent, but remember the Buddha taught "with respect to things unheard before." (Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta) He used the same terms but in a completely new way - *with respect to things unheard before.* --------------------------- KH: > > However, in the Theravada texts samadhi definitely does refer > to a universal cetasika (universal mental state). And you think just about everybody has access to such a universal cetasika? Universal= Brahma. ---------------------------- In Abhidhamma terminology, universal means "in all consciousness." So samadhi can be good or evil, exalted or lowly, developed or undeveloped (etc) - depending on the consciousness at the time. But in all cases it is complete one-pointedness of mind. So it is just like the samadhi known to the meditation community, but "with respect to things unheard before." -------------------------------------- F: > Can you give me a quote from the Theravada texts that define samadhi in your way and not mine? --------------------------------------- When the suttas discuss samadhi they are usually referring to the types associated with development of the Eightfold Path. I am sure they also mention the undesirable samadhis, but I am not a good source of quotes. Do you have 'The Buddhist Dictionary' by Nyanatiloka? (It's on line.) That would be a good place to start. It leaves no doubt that samadhi is a universal mental state. -------------------------- KH: > > Every momentary > consciousness (citta), at every single moment of the day, contains the > state of samadhi (one pointedness of mind). > > F: > As I said: just for an arahant. -------------------------- I think you are confusing "samadhi" with "samma-sammadhi of the Eightfold Path." Even there, samma-sammadhi is momentary. Taking Nibbana as its object, it arises, performs its functions and falls away in the space of one citta (about a trillionth of a second). And then it has gone forever. ------------------------- F: > Momentary concentration jumps from one object to the next, I agree. -------------------------- Are you referring to one of the suttas that use the simile of a monkey swinging from branch to branch? It's a wonderful simile, of course, but it has to be understood properly. As I see it, the monkey is not a metaphor for consciousness. If it were, then it might give the impression a persisting consciousness that experienced one object, then another, then another. I think the monkey might be a metaphor for the Dhamma (the way things are). It is constantly changing from one consciousness to another (from seeing, to thinking, to hearing, to touching, to bavangha, . . . ).That's how things are here in samsara; and have been for countless aeons. ----------------------------------------- F: > But only when it does so lucidly one experiences a degree of samadhi. This is one of the goals of formal meditation: to reach a lasting sati-sampajanna. I have met only few people so far who have develloped it. When it happens there is bliss in pain, calm in anger, fearlessness in fear. ------------------------------------------ I think we agree by now that the meditation community uses terms differently from the way the Theravada texts use them. -------------------------------- <. . .> KH: > This profound, > complete one-pointedness of mind is samadhi. And it is happening right > now. F: > But how many people are aware of it? -------------------------------- Here again, we see the difference between the meditator's form of samadhi - which is experienced by people - and the Abhidhamma's form of samadhi, which is experienced by momentary conditioned dhammas. -------------------------------------------- F: > This process happens very fast (thus momentary). Only when it is really a samadhi one is aware of it because discernment goes on hyper-speed, too. -------------------------------------------- Conditioned dhammas move at hyper-speed and they experience other dhammas at hyper-speed. It is no trouble for them. :-) ------------------------------- F: > It is not possible to assume that everything written in the suttas or Abhidhamma is correct for everybody. The suttas describe different levels of experience and devellopment. Abhidhamma describes how it appears to someone who has already develloped wisdom and insight. For such a person momentary samadhi happens. And if he or she is an arahant it is lasting. ------------------------------- I don't want to change your mind about formal meditation. However, I would like you to realise that the Theravadha texts are talking about something completely different. Ken H #100871 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:13 am Subject: samadhi & Buddha's discovery truth_aerator Hi KenH and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Freawaru, > > That's true to an extent, but remember the Buddha taught "with >respect to things unheard before." (Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta) He >used the same terms but in a completely new way - *with respect to >things unheard before.* If the Hindus in Buddha's time concentrated on Krishna, Shiva or Kali - the Buddha taught where to look for Awakening. > In Abhidhamma terminology, universal means "in all consciousness." But how can "un-concentrated" mind or restless mind be one-pointed and concentrated? Furthermore, the Samadhi requires certain conditions such as happiness and tranquility of mind/body. How can these factors be met while one is unhappy or tense - especially when in Hell? What about people in Hell? Do they have samadhi constantly happening? With metta, Alex #100872 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. jonoabb Hi Howard (and Nina) (100776) > THUS, this sutta concerns the bhikkhu who develops both samatha and > vipassanaa? I find this to be an odd conclusion. The sutta teaches how ending > the fermentaions depends on jhana. THAT is the point! Why do you deflect > that? > ... > Calm and insight are mutually dependent. =============== I'd agree that insight is dependent on calm, but I understand calm to be possible without insight. In what sense do you see calm as being dependent on insight? =============== The point the Buddha makes in > this sutta is the critical importance of jhana to uprooting the defilements. > The material points out how based in jhana insight and disengagement can > arise, and staying with that the full extinguishing of fermentations can be > achieved. Based on jhana, wisdom can arise to do the uprooting needed. =============== The connection you make here regarding the "critical importance of jhana" is a matter of interpretation. The sutta does not say in so many words that enlightenment can only be achieved by first developing mundane jhana. What the passage says is the following: ******* [1] 'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? [2] There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana ... [3] He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. [4] He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite â€" the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' ******* The point to note here is that the Buddha is quoting something said previously or on another occasion, and is explaining in what sense the words quoted are to be understood. I would paraphrase the passage as follows: [1] In what sense can it (properly) be said that "the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana"? [2] Take the case of a monk who attains the first jhana. [3] This monk sees the 5 khandhas as anicca, dukkha and anattaa. [4] He does not grasp at those phenomena, and his mind inclines towards nibbana. The passage does not establish a causal connection between the attainment of the first jhana and seeing the 5 khandhas as they truly are. It simply describes the case of the jhana attainer who attains enlightenment. To my reading, the passage has the effect of (a) showing jhana attainers that there is a higher attainment, namely that of enlightenment, and (b) showing how enlightenment can be attained based on jhana. =============== And > the Buddha recapitulates with the main point: <'I tell you, the ending of > the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus was it said, and > in reference to this was it said.> =============== This restatement at the end simply closes off the section. It adds nothing in terms of the meaning. Note that the Buddha then goes on to deal separately with each successive level of jhaana. If he was intending to establish a causal connection, he need simply have established the minimum requirement (1st jhana) and left it at that. And as Nina also points out, the highest of the arupa jhanas is conspicuously absent from the list. That is not consistent with the necessary prerequisite interpretation. Jon #100873 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:07 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha was not a God, not a saviour, who wanted people to follow him without questioning the truth of his teaching. He showed the Path to the understanding of the truth, but people had to investigate the truth and develop the Path themselves. We read in the scriptures (Dialogues of the Buddha, II, 16, the Book of the Great Decease) that the Buddha said to his disciple Ånanda: Therefore, Ånanda, be an island to yourselves, a refuge to yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Teaching as your island, the Teaching as your refuge, seeking no other refuge… The Buddha explained that in developing the Path one is one’s own refuge. The Buddha had found the Path to understanding of the truth all by himself, without help from a teacher. However, he was not the only Buddha. Aeons and aeons ago there were other Buddhas who also found the Path all by themselves and who taught the development of the Path to others. The Buddha whose teaching we know in this time was called the Buddha Gotama. His personal name was Siddhattha and his family name Gotama. He lived in the sixth century B.C. in Northern India. He was born in Lumbini (now in Nepal) as the son of Suddhodana, King of the Såkyas. His mother was Queen Måyå. He married Princess Yasodharå and he lived in great luxury. However, when he drove out to the park with his charioteer he was confronted with suffering. We read in the Dialogues of the Buddha (II, 14, The Sublime Story) that the Buddha related the story of a former Buddha, the Buddha Vipassi, and explained that all Bodhisattas, beings destined to become Enlightened Ones, Buddhas, have such experiences. We read that the Bodhisatta, after he saw in the park someone who was aged, asked the charioteer the meaning of what he saw. The charioteer explained to him that the person he saw was aged and that all beings are subject to old age. On a following occasion there was an encounter with a sick person and the charioteer explained that all beings are subject to illness. ******* Nina. #100874 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. jonoabb Hi Howard (100779) > The Buddha begins and ends the sutta by > saying "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on ... > jhana," and that is the theme of this sutta. The theme is not other than > this. > =============== As I mentioned in a post just a short time ago, the words "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on ... jhana," appear to be a quotation rather than a statement of doctrine. It's not clear from the sutta whether the person being quoted is Buddha himself or someone else (perhaps the commentary would have something to say on that). But in any event, the Buddha then proceeds to qualify the statement by setting out the sense in which it must be understood. We cannot just ignore these words of qualification. Jon #100875 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. jonoabb Hi Howard (and Nina) (100783) > Howard, do you think that the faculties of different people are the > same? Without any predominance of this or that faculty? > =========================== > No, I do not. And I also consider wisdom to be the preeminent faculty > for awakening. But jhana is also essential, and THAT is the point of this > particular sutta. > =============== You read this sutta (and other texts) as saying that jhana is a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment. Do the texts also say that jhana is a necessary prerequisite for the development of insight at the beginning level? Because if they don't, then why is it that satipatthana/insight cannot continue to be developed on and on until enlightenment ensues? As far as I know, there's nothing in the texts that suggests that insight without mundane jhana can be developed only so far and no further, or that lack of mundane jhana is some kind of obstacle to the attainment of enlightenment. Jon #100876 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:22 am Subject: Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . jonoabb Hi KenH (100790) > I think it is safe to say that Dhamma study includes study of the twenty > kamma-pathas. As to what that involves, I couldn't say with any > confidence. In my simplistic view of things a kamma-patha must (if it is > a reality) exist in one fleeting moment of nama and rupa. =============== I think that's right. In the ultimate sense, kamma-patha is individual moments of cetana. The fact that there might never be only a single moment of such cetana occurring on its own, so to speak, does not detract from that fact. Also, we need to remember that actually *knowing* that a given moment of cetana is kamma patha is a different issue entirely. =============== But that > simplistic view might not be enough. Sarah has tried to explain to me > that kamma-patha involves, not just one, but many moments of volition. =============== Many moments of volition, each of which is kamma patha, preceded by and interspersed with many moments of volition that are not kamma patha. =============== > But if we take the simplistic view kamma-patha must ultimately be a > single citta accompanied by cetasikas. Some kamma-pathas have (I think) > the same collection of cetasikas as some other kamma-pathas. And so, in > this way, Dhamma study involves knowing one dhamma from another, > apparently identical, dhamma. =============== I think I disagree with this ;-)). The study of dhammas, in the sense of their direct understanding, does not require the knowledge that a given moment of cetana is or is not kamma patha. =============== > J: > Is it just "Dhamma trivia", then? ;-)) I don't think so. I would > agree it > doesn't have direct relevance for you or me to the development of > satipatthana > at this moment. But for other persons, or under other circumstances, it > might. > ------------------------ > > I am happy with that explanation. My confusion is temporarily > suppressed. Lying dormant until next time the subject comes up. :-) =============== OK, you'd like to drop it for now ;-)) Jon #100877 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? ptaus1 Dear Sarah, > S: I think it is a very complex issue. For example, in the killing of a living being, it is only completed kamma patha if the living being dies. Now this is irrespective of the strength of the intention to kill. Someone may have a very strong intention to kill a mosquito, but it's only partial kamma-patha if the mosquito escapes. Someone else may have a lesser intention, but the mosquito dies. Only a Buddha can know all the intricacies of the results in both cases. One thing for sure is that kamma accumulates and it is the intention that is the kamma. Thanks for your replies and quotes. I was considering this for the last few days and it seems that there are (at least) two major issues at work here - kamma patha and underlying tendencies: 1. Kamma patha - full course of action does indeed seem to depend on other people, as is evident from the quotes you provided. But, what would be the akusala kamma patha in terms of the actor on a stage (or more precise a person telling a joke)? To summarise kamma pathas: Bodily - killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. Verbal - false speech, slandering, harsh speech and frivolous talk. Mental - covetousness, ill will and wrong view. I'm not sure that any kamma patha applies to the actor on the stage (or a person telling a joke)? Maybe false speech? But then, the audience is aware that it is a play/joke, not a dhamma talk for example, so I’m not sure if false speech applies in this situation? Further, in terms of the other arts, it's even less likely that kamma patha happens - let's take an example of a musician - I can't think of a single kamma patha that would apply in case of the musician performing a musical piece. Can you? Unless mental kamma patha of covetousness applies not just to coveting other's property, but also coveting other's attention, appreciation, liking, respect, etc? In that case it might apply in the case of a musician. 2. Underlying tendencies - this is a different matter. I think it's fairly clear that liking/disliking of a moment in a play, or a joke, or a musical piece strengthens the underlying tendencies of delusion, greed and hate. But, I'd say that here each person is responsible for himself - i.e. the actor is responsible for his own tendencies, and an audience member for his own, even if they arise in response to someone else's joke, or music, or words, etc. Would you agree? And an aside question - do underlying tendencies count as kamma indirectly? It seems there are two unwholesome things being accumulated in an akusala moment: underlying tendencies â€" when they do not lead to a full course of action, and kamma â€" when underlying tendencies do happen to lead to a full course of action. In particular, here's a quote from Nyanatiloka's dictionary on anusaya: "According to Kath. [pt: this is probably Kathavatthu] several ancient Buddhist schools erroneously held the opinion that the anusayas, as such, meant merely latent, hence karmically neutral qualities, which however contradicts the Theravada conception." So, I guess in "Theravada conception" underlying tendencies are kammically active, but I wonder in what sense in cases when they do not lead to a full course of action? Best wishes pt #100878 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:14 am Subject: There is More to Samadhi/Ken (Re: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board.) kenhowardau Hi Howard, I almost forgot your follow-up post. ------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi again, Ken - > <. . .> > The following is from the Satipatthana Sutta: > > > "When the mind is constricted, he discerns that the mind is constricted. > When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the > mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is > not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is > surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is > unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is > concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not > concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is > released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, > he discerns that the mind is not released. > > > There is always but one object of consciousness. But there is NOT > always concentration. Note the Buddha saying in the foregoing: "When the mind > is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind > is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated." > ------------------- Sometimes the suttas seem to be teaching a conventional reality (of lasting things), but there is always an explanation. The commentary to the sutta will no doubt explain the terms 'constricted' 'scattered' 'enlarged' 'surpassed' and 'concentrated' and they will not contradict the Abhidhamma in any way. If I were to hazard a guess I would say the term 'concentrated mind' in this case referred to jhana, and 'not concentrated mind' referred to any kind of mind other than jhana. In both cases, as in all cases, there is the type of concentration (samadhi) that fixes the mind to its object. Mind depends on being fixed to an object. Otherwise there would be no mind of any kind. If there were no mind of any kind the terms 'constricted' 'scattered' . . . and 'concentrated mind' would have nothing to apply to. Ken H #100879 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:36 am Subject: Dhs. past, present and future khandhas sprlrt Hi, Dhammasangani, as it's dealing with khandhas/sankhara/paramattha dhammas, doesn't take into account conventional time, i.e. yesterday, today, tomorrow, last/current/next month, week, year etc.; it only refers to it as now, after and before that - Alberto - [Present] 1041., 1046. What dhammas have [just] arisen (uppanna)? / been conditioned to arise (paccuppanna)? The dhammas that have [just]: been generated, come into existence, been produced, sprung up,..., manifested [themselves], arisen / been conditioned to arise, ..., stood up, ... the material form, feeling, memory, consciousness and its [conditioned] concomitants classed as [just] arisen / been conditioned to arise. These dhammas are present. - [Future] 1042., 1045. What dhammas have not [yet] arisen / come? The dhammas that have not [yet]: been generated, come into existence, been produced, sprung up,..., manifested [themselves], arisen / been conditioned to arise, ..., stood up, ... the material form, feeling, memory, consciousness and its [conditioned] concomitants classed as not [yet] arisen / been conditioned to arise. These dhammas are future. 1043. What dhammas are scheduled to arise? The fruits not yet ripe, i.e. kāma-rųpa-arųpa avacara and lokuttara vipāka, of kusala and akusala dhammas: the [vipāka] khandhas of feeling, memory, consciousness and its [conditioned] concomitants; and that material form that will arise due to kamma. These dhammas are scheduled to arise. - [Past] 1044. What dhammas are past? The dhammas that have: gone past, fallen away, gone by, become otherwise, gone for good, gone for ever, gone by after having arisen, past; the material form, feeling, memory, consciousness and its [conditioned] concomitants classed as past. These dhammas are past. #100880 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:09 pm Subject: Body Awareness! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Awareness of the Body induces all Advantages! The Blessed Buddha repeatedly emphasized: Bhikkhus, when one thing is developed and repeatedly practised, then it leads to a supreme sense of urgency, to a supreme advantage, to a supreme ceasing of bondage, to a supreme full awareness and clear comprehension, to winning knowledge and vision, to a happy life here and now, to realization of the fruit of clear vision and releasing deliverance. What is that one unique thing? It is awareness occupied with the body! Bhikkhus, they savour the deathless, who taste awareness occupied with the body! Those, who do not repeatedly practice body awareness, cannot taste the deathless element... (AN I 43+45) <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <....> #100881 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, (Rob K & Jon), --- On Thu, 17/9/09, kenhowardau wrote: >Probably. Although my thinking has been so muddled I am not sure what I was saying. ... S: :-) I think you're too modest - there are always interesting points behind your comments. I was just reading one of the extracts Han posted on bodily intimation. Now, we know from inference what bodily intimations are - gestures of the hands, facial expressions and so on to convey meanings. But actually, of course, only visible object is seen and the intimation is a subtle rupa without sabhava, as I recall. So we reflect on it all, but are never actually aware of the rupa. Rather like masculinity/femininity, but more subtle still. So, my muddled thinking is wondering if there's a similar point to the one about the act of dana or kamma patha. We make inferences based on the information we have - we cannot pin-point the exact cittas, but the very wise could. .... >I have had a similar problem before. For example, years ago, when we first met at Noosa, I asked you and Sarah about parents. The ancient texts tell us quite dogmatically that parents are wonderful: even if we "carry them on our shoulders for a thousand years (etc)" ... S: As Jon mentioned, I don't think the texts are telling us they're wonderful. It's like individual members of the bhikkhu Sangha - all sorts. The respect is to the parents or the Sangha 'as a whole'. This way we don't dwell on the short-comings, but just consider what is worthy of appreciation when we have an opportunity. ... >we still won't have repaid the debt we owe them. This dogmatic language seems quite incongruous. (Especially when we know there are some bad parents.) So I asked you rhetorically, which of the paramattha dhammas was called "parent?" ... S: Like with 'teacher' or 'Sangha', it is honouring those who have given us a great gift. Like with the respect to the Buddha, it's actually to the qualities that we pay respect, not a person. The respect to the Sangha is to qualities of the ariyan wisdom, not beings. The respect to the parents is to the qualities of nurturing and providing sustenance that brought us into this world and took care of us when young, for however short a period. .... >Looking for someone to blame for my muddled thinking :-) I might point to the way DSG and the recorded talks (with K Sujin) occasionally treat concepts as if they were dhammas. You will remember the talk in which K S was asked about sexual misconduct with regard to the precepts. She was quite adamant that sex between unmarried people was a breach of the precepts. (Because unmarried women were still under the care and protection of their parents or guardians.) ... S: I remember the discussion at KK between Rob K and K Sujin on this. I thought the point was that it was a breach of the precepts *if* the unmarried women were considered to still be under the care and protection of the parents/gurardians. In other words, would any distress be caused? Are the women still considered to be under their care or supported by them in any way? I think when one considers what is really meant (as in the case of the other precepts), it is not about concepts at all, but about degrees of akusala, degrees of ahiri and anotappa that (knowingly)cause harm or misery to others. .... >be I am sure some people at the meeting would have been thinking "Won't that depend on cultural traditions and other circumstances? " But K Sujin was quite adamant. ... S: I think the cultural traditions/circumstances will affect what is considered to be misconduct. It's the same with stealing or lying too. However, the principles are the same, don't you think? As usual, it's not the story or situation, but the cittas involved. Metta Sarah ============ #100882 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/26/2009 12:07:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (and Nina) (100776) > THUS, this sutta concerns the bhikkhu who develops both samatha and > vipassanaa? I find this to be an odd conclusion. The sutta teaches how ending > the fermentaions depends on jhana. THAT is the point! Why do you deflect > that? > ... > Calm and insight are mutually dependent. =============== I'd agree that insight is dependent on calm, but I understand calm to be possible without insight. In what sense do you see calm as being dependent on insight? -------------------------------------------------- I'm surprised that you would ask that, Jon, unless your question is rhetorical. We are easily distressed by the ups and downs of things unless a modicum of right thinking moderates this. Envy, fantasy, lustful desire, anger, sorrow, etc, etc can be reduced, with their full force held in abeyance by proper understanding, and this reduction of mental tumult is a calming of the mind. It is usually not the deepest level of calm attainable, but it is often sufficient to enable further calm by other means. When there is enormous distress, for example, attempting to engage in attending to the breath and other bodily sensations (and whatever else arises) is at best difficult and often pointless, but if that distress can be tempered by useful thinking, what was impossible may become possible and deeper calm then engendered. For the record, Jon, I accord great importance to right thought and the power of insightful contemplation. ------------------------------------------------- =============== The point the Buddha makes in > this sutta is the critical importance of jhana to uprooting the defilements. > The material points out how based in jhana insight and disengagement can > arise, and staying with that the full extinguishing of fermentations can be > achieved. Based on jhana, wisdom can arise to do the uprooting needed. =============== The connection you make here regarding the "critical importance of jhana" is a matter of interpretation. The sutta does not say in so many words that enlightenment can only be achieved by first developing mundane jhana. -------------------------------------------- Please read my response above. As for he necessity of jhana, that is right concentration, and it is a requisite for full awakening if not lesser stages. In suttas, it is jhana the Buddha speak of, not a "jhana- level concentration at a path/fruit moment." -------------------------------------------- What the passage says is the following: ******* [1] 'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? [2] There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana ... [3] He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. [4] He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite ÃĒ₮" the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' ******* The point to note here is that the Buddha is quoting something said previously or on another occasion, and is explaining in what sense the words quoted are to be understood. ----------------------------------------------- I don't see this, Jon. ------------------------------------------------ I would paraphrase the passage as follows: [1] In what sense can it (properly) be said that "the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana"? [2] Take the case of a monk who attains the first jhana. [3] This monk sees the 5 khandhas as anicca, dukkha and anattaa. [4] He does not grasp at those phenomena, and his mind inclines towards nibbana. ------------------------------------------------ The jhana enables the insight. What is not clear? -------------------------------------------------- The passage does not establish a causal connection between the attainment of the first jhana and seeing the 5 khandhas as they truly are. It simply describes the case of the jhana attainer who attains enlightenment. ---------------------------------------------------- Jon! That is nonsense. He explicitly is explaining that insight depends on jhana, and he explains how. --------------------------------------------------- To my reading, the passage has the effect of (a) showing jhana attainers that there is a higher attainment, namely that of enlightenment, and (b) showing how enlightenment can be attained based on jhana. ---------------------------------------------------- What are you asserting, Jon? I don't get it! ----------------------------------------------------- =============== And > the Buddha recapitulates with the main point: <'I tell you, the ending of > the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus was it said, and > in reference to this was it said.> =============== This restatement at the end simply closes off the section. It adds nothing in terms of the meaning. ----------------------------------------------- Jon, you just don't like what the Buddha is teaching here. ----------------------------------------------- Note that the Buddha then goes on to deal separately with each successive level of jhaana. If he was intending to establish a causal connection, he need simply have established the minimum requirement (1st jhana) and left it at that. -------------------------------------------------- I guess you don't know what "depends on" means. ------------------------------------------------- And as Nina also points out, the highest of the arupa jhanas is conspicuously absent from the list. That is not consistent with the necessary prerequisite interpretation. ---------------------------------------------------- The higher jhanas are not requisite. ----------------------------------------------------- Jon ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100883 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:25 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (55) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ Speech intimation is produced by kusala citta when we, for example, with generosity and kindness try to help and encourage others in speaking to them. When we speak about the Buddha’s teachings there may be kusala cittas, but at times there also tend to be akusala cittas, for example, when we are conceited about our knowledge, or when we are attached to the people we are speaking to. Many different types of citta arise and fall away very rapidly and we may not know when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta. There can be mindfulness of naama and ruupa while speaking. One may believe that this is not possible because one has to think of the words one wants to speak. However, thinking is a reality and it can also be object of mindfulness. There are sound and hearing and they can be object of mindfulness when they appear. We are usually absorbed in the subject we want to speak about and we attach great importance to our speech. We live most of the time in the world of "conventional truth", and we are forgetful of ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas). In the ultimate sense there is no speaker, only phenomena, devoid of self, conditioned naamas and ruupas. When we gesticulate and speak, hardness, pressure, sound or hearing may present themselves, they can be experienced one at a time. If there is mindfulness at such moments, understanding of the reality that appears can be developed. ------------------------------ Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech to be continued. with metta, Han #100884 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:51 pm Subject: 3 Sikkhaa (trainings), Suan (1). Was: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! sarahprocter... Dear Suan, In this reply, I'd like to look at your comments about the three trainings (sikkhaa) and to consider whether the texts indicate siila has to be developed first as a formal practice, as you suggest: Suan:> Lukas wrote, and Sarah agreed and reproduced: >"if we hear the Abhidhamma we can realize how accurate it is. How according to realities it is. No need to develop siila first, no need to do anything. No siila first. ......" . >Suan censured both Lukas and Sarah, and held them responsible for the above wrong speech (micchaavaacaa) . >The Buddha's teachings and instructions on the formal practices of siila found in Suttanta Pi.taka and Vinya Pi.taka do not contradict those formal practices found in Abhidhamma Pi.taka. <...> >We even find one of the paramatthadhammas (ultimate realities) being defined in terms of the three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa for nirvana. ... Sarah: One paramattha dhamma? Which one? .... >Suan: Please see Section 1008, Nikkhepaka.n. do, Dhammasanganii, the First Book of Abhidhamma Pi.taka. >1008. "Tattha katamaa vicikicchaa? Satthari kankhati vicikicchati, dhamme kankhati vicikicchati, sanghe kankhati vicikicchati, sikkhaaya kankhati vicikicchati, â€Ķ." >In the above Pali passage, we see the question `What is doubt? katamaa vicikicchaa? ' The answer has been given as doubting or disbelieving the three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa for nirvana (sikkhaaya kankhati vicikicchati) – among others. .... Sarah: I don't see the word "formal" in the Pali. The passage is referring is referring to the three-fold training, the three-fold division of the 8-fold path, as I understand. Training in higher morality is adhisiila-sikkhaa, training in higher concentration is adhicitta-sikkhaa and training in higher wisdom is adhipa~n~naa-sikkhaa. Nowhere does it say that siila has to be developed first. In fact, what we read is that without the development of right understanding of the eightfold path, siila can never be purified. Only the sotapanna has no more doubt about the path, no more inclination to ever break the precepts because of the purified siila through the growth of right understanding. Sammohavinodanii, commentary to the Vibha.nga (Dispeller, Classification of the Jhaanas 1596): "Furthermore, this whole Dispensation called the three trainings (sikkhaa), owing to being viewed by the Blessed One, owing to having Right View as its condition, owing to having Right View as its precursor, is 'view'...." And again, no mention of siila to be developed first in the following description of the path and the three trainings (sikkhaa). No mention of any "formal practice" for that matter either: Same text, Classification of Truths 570: " But this path is both vision and conduct (vijjaa c'eva cara.na~n ca) because of the inclusion of Right View and Thinking by vision and of the remaining states by conduct. Also it is both tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassanaa) because of the inclusion of those two by the vehicle of insight and of the remaining states by the vehicle of tranquillity. [And because of the inclusion] of these two by the understanding group, and of the three that come next by the virtue group, and of the remainder by the concentration group; and, because of inclusion in the trainings of the higher understanding, the higher virtue and the higher consciousness, it is the trio of groups and the trio of trainings, endowed with which the noble disciple, like a traveller endowed with eyes capable of seeing and with feet capable of walking, being endowed with vision and conduct, avoiding the two extremes, namely, avoiding by means of the vehicle of insight the extreme of devotion to indulgence in sensual pleasure, and by means of the vehicle of tranquillity indulgence in self-mortification, and having entered upon the middle way, destroying the delusion group by means of the understanding group, the hate group by means of the conduct group and the greed group by means of the concentration group, having reached the three successes, namely, the success of understanding by means of the training in the higher understanding, the success of conduct by means of the training in higher conduct and the success of concentration by means of the training in the higher consciousness, he realises the deathless nibbaana. He is one who has alighted on the noble plane which is good in the beginning, middle and end, is adorned with the treasure of the 37 states that partake of enlightenment and is called certainty of rightness." Sarah: For such an ariyan, there is no doubt, no idea of "success of conduct" without the right understanding of the path and no idea of "formal training" in siila first. Right view understands that paramattha dhammas (apart from nibbaana) as conditioned and not in the control of any Self. ... Suan:> The readers will notice that I have translated the term `sikkhaa' as the three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa. This is because sikkhaa means not only siila in this case, but also includes samatha and vipassanaa. ... Sarah: See above. ... Suan:> The following comes from the commentary on this term in A.t.thasaalinii. >`Tisso pana sikkhaa atthi nu kho natthii'ti kankhantopi, `tisso sikkhaa sikkhitapaccayena aanisamso atthi nu kho natthii'ti kankhantopi sikkhaaya kankhati naama.' >`One who doubts whether or not there are three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa and one who doubts whether or not there is any advantage by the cause of undertaking the three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa represent doubting the three formal practices for nirvana.' Section 1008, Nikkhepaka.n. do, A.t.thasaalinii. ... Sarah: Pe Maung Tin (PTS) translates as: "He is said to doubt the Training thus: 'Are there the three stages of training, or not'?" Sarah: Again, no "formal practice". This does not seem to include the last part of the paragraph, but as you like to point out, I'm no Pali scholar:-)). And as for the training and accomplishment of the Patimokkha siila which you referred to, these are all included in the three sikkhaa, to be purified through development of the Path: AN 3s, 85, Bodhi translation: "O monks, the more than a hundred and fifty training rules that come up for recitation every fortnight, in which young men desiring the goal train themselves, are all contained in these three trainings. What three? The training in higher virtue, the training in higher mind, and the training in higher wisdom. These are the three trainings in which the more than a hundred and fifty training rules are all contained." Metta Sarah ======== #100885 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Dear Freawaru, Op 25-sep-2009, om 13:12 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > Samadhi does not accompany every citta or vinnnana in everybody. > Only for those who have develloped wisdom and insight. ------- N: The terms concentration, feeling etc. have a meaning in everyday language different from the meaning as explained in the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma deals with momentary realities. Each mind-moment or citta is extremely short, it arises and then falls away immediately, and so it is with the accompanying cetasikas, such as concentration, feeling, sati sampaja~n~na if these arise. They are all impermanent and that is why they are dukkha. They cannot last, satisampaja~n~na cannot last. It is dukkha. It seems that concentration can last, but in reality it arises and falls away. Wholesome samaadhi is developed in samatha and it can reach the stage of jhaana, but even then it arises and falls away. There can be many jhaanacittas succeeding one another and then it seems that concentration lasts, but it does not last. Jhaanacitta is always kusala, it is kusala of a higher level, the level of ruupaa- jhaanacitta or aruupa-jhaanacitta. As you remarked, sammaasamaadhi is developed as a factor of the eightfold Path. It accompanies the citta that develops the eightfold Path and it arises and falls away with the citta. In the definition in the Atthasaalinii it is said: concentration has peace of mind or knowledge as manifestation, and this refers to the wholesome samaadhi. The characteristic and function refer to samaadhi in a wider sense, samaadhi accompanying each citta. You were wondering about the distracted mind: also then there is one- pointedness on the object citta experiences. Each citta experiences an object and it needs samaadhi to focus on it. Samaadhi is a jhaanafactor and in the Pa.t.thana (Conditional Relations, the seventh book of the Abhidhamma) it is explained that it conditions the accompanying dhammas by way of jhaana-condition. I wrote before (in my Conditions): < The term jhåna in jhåna-condition is used in a wider sense than jhåna developed in samatha by means of the jhåna-factors that are the sobhana cetasikas mentioned above. The jhåna-factors that are jhåna- condition for the citta they accompany are not only the sobhana cetasikas developed in samatha; they arise with cittas which are kusala, akusala, vipåka or kiriya. The jhåna-factors in the sense of jhåna-condition assist the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany to be firmly fixed on the object that is experienced. Without the assistance of the jhåna-factors good or evil deeds cannot be performed. > Thus even a thief needs concentration to break into a house. Even a hunter needs concentration to shoot an animal. We read in the 'Guide to Conditional Relations' by U Naarada (a respected Sayadaw from Birma): < Without jhaana condiiton it would not be possible to shoot birds and animals, to clearly distinguish what and whose form it is, to take one straight step forward correctly, for, if at the beginning the foot was pointed eastwards, it would point southwards in the middle and westwards at the end of the step... , to pronounce one word correctly. This shows how swiftly the mind is distracted and changed. So the mind may be compared to a young and wild bull and jhaana condition to the rope, post, grass and water which keeps the bull under control and prevents it from wandering away.> Later on I come back to your other points. Nina. #100886 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:35 pm Subject: Warnings and Gentle Speech, Suan (2). Was: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! sarahprocter... Dear Suan, Just a couple of friendly comments on the 'Warning' and on gentle speech in general. Usually, I just stick to the strictly Dhamma comments and leave aside the more personal ones, but it might be helpful to discuss this area a little just this time. --- On Fri, 25/9/09, abhidhammika wrote: >Warning: I will be carrying out the duties of a traditional Theravada teacher in this post. ... Sarah: As Scott has indicated before, here on DSG we are all fellow students and friends in the Dhamma. We discuss our understandings of "traditional Theravada" and help each other. .... >As such, it will contain my teachings in the form of fresh translations of some parts of Abhdhamma texts of both canonical and commentarial nature, which are unlikely to be available elsewhere. Some KS folks wishing to eschew a traditional Theravada teacher like me or being scared of becoming anonymous students of such a Theravada teacher, now is your chance to leave without reading on further. ... Sarah: Again, whilst we all appreciate your contributions here, many of us do not agree that what you say or write is always the "traditional Theravada teaching", so no need to refer to yourself repeatedly as a T.T.T:-)) I think that even those who agree with what you say, will appreciate a little humility and more of your gentle, friendly speech. ... >Ignoring this warning and getting your egos unnecessarily injured by reading the contents of this post should be your own doing and responsibility. You have been humanely forewarned! ... Sarah: Knowing that all have "egos", all have attachments to themselves, let's treat each other kindly, just as we like to be treated. You'll remember how after King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika concluded that indeed there was no one dearer than themselves, the Buddha spoke these lines in Udana, 5-1, `Dear' (Masefield trans): "Having explored all quarters with the mind, one would simply not attain That dearer than the self in any place; thus is the self dear separately To others - therefore one desiring self should not harm another." ... Suan:> Sarah, I know you are a busy layperson with various household commitments. You may not be expected to have learnt Pali language to a level advanced enough to be able to read A.t.thasaalinii from start to finish. >Or, you may not even be expected to have enough time to be able to read A.t.thasaalinii English translation from the prologue to the epilogue. >But, your naivety exceeded my expectation! .... Sarah: Perhaps in these comments and other past ones on the list, you just meant to express that you have a difference of understanding:-). As for the time and the Paali, to be honest, I've never considered that the Path is about being a Pali expert or reading texts from prologue to epilogue (although, just as it happens, my copy of the translation of this text has been pretty well read since I obtained it over 30 yrs ago). I consider the trainings to be about the considering very carefully and the developing of understanding of what we've read and heard. A lot of what I read I forget, especially if it's not understood and if it has little meaning for me at the time: In AN,4s, 186 ‘Approach’ (Ummagga), it refers to being 'widely learned' and 'knowing Dhamma by heart'. “...Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla. Now if a monk understands the meaning and (text of) dhamma, - even if it be but a stanza of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may well be called ‘one widely learned, who knows the Dhamma by heart.' " Again, I appreciate our discussions and usually I just ignore any 'put-down' personal comments, especially if they're addressed to me, but for the sake of the harmony of the list, I think we can all keep in mind the many good reminders of right speech, such as this one which Howard posted before: "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will." AN V.198 Thanks, Suan. Your comments have also helped me to reflect more carefully on this topic and I appreciate your concern to 'overturn' and wrong views you think you read:-). When I have time, I hope to also respond to some of the other interesting points/quotes you raised. I appreciate your taking the time out of your schedule to do this and look forward to many more helpful discussions with you. Metta Sarah ====== #100887 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 3 Sikkhaa (trainings), Suan (1). Was: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/26/2009 9:51:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: And again, no mention of siila to be developed first in the following description of the path and the three trainings (sikkhaa). ============================= With regard to sila being an initial training, please see the following: _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.001.than.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.001.than.html) _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.002.than.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.002.than.html) Also, Bhikkhu Bodhi writes the following in the article findable at the ATI link _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel259.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel259.html) : "The vigour of the spiritual life, like the vigour of a tree, depends upon healthy roots. Just as a tree with weak and shallow roots cannot flourish but will grow up stunted, withered and barren, so a spiritual life devoid of strong roots will also have a stunted growth incapable of bearing fruit. To attempt to scale the higher stages of the path it is essential at the outset to nourish the proper roots of the path; otherwise the result will be frustration, disillusionment, and perhaps even danger. The roots of the path are the constituents of sila, the factors of moral virtue. These are the basis for meditation, the ground for all wisdom and higher achievement. To say that sila is the precondition for success, however, does not mean, as is too often believed in conservative Buddhist circles, that one cannot begin to meditate until one's sila is perfect. Such a stipulation would make it almost impossible to start meditation, since it is the mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom of the meditative process that bring about the gradual purification of virtue. But to say that virtue is the basis of practice does mean that the capacity for achievement in meditation hinges upon the purity of our sila. If our roots of virtue are weak, our meditation will likewise be weak. If our actions repeatedly clash with the basic principles of right conduct, our attempts to control the mind in the discipline of meditation will turn into a self-defeating enterprise, since the springs of our conduct will be the same defiled states of mind the meditation is intended to eliminate." With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100888 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:56 pm Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! szmicio Dear Suan, KS folks all develop silla, samadhi, panna. Nobody says dont train in siila, samadhi and panna. The point is that the samma-ditthi is first. > Why was Luka's assertion (accepted by Sarah) the wrong speech? > > That was because Mahaa thero in the story had been undertaking the formal practice of the Vinaya siila, the highest–level type, for 20 or more years! > > Sarah, you need to own up to the fact that what Lukas wrote was merely his own personal opinion (attanomati) and misrepresented Abhidhamma teachings. L: Yeah, that are my own fantasies. ;> Best wishes Lukas #100889 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:04 pm Subject: Abhidhamma auf Deutsch nilovg Dear Freawaru, If you like I can send you the translation of my Abhidhamma in Daily Life in a German translation: Abhidhamma im Alltag. It is a free book, and if you wish you could give me your postal address off line. Nina. #100890 From: "mikenz66" Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) mikenz66 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Mike (nz), > S: Firstly, I'd like to warmly welcome you to DSG! I assume you come from New Zealand? Would you care to introduce yourself a little - how you came to be interested in the Dhamma.... MikeNZ: Sorry, forgot to come back to this. Yes, I live in New Zealand, attend a Thai Wat locally. First went there to improve my Thai almost four years ago and ended up Buddhist... My main teachers have been from my local Wat (but from Bangladesh and the US originally). When I spent some time in Hong Kong in 2007 I had the opportunity to meet a variety of other Theravada teachers such as Ajahn Brahm, Bhante Mahinda, and the monk associated with the Theravada group I attended. I also worked through Bhikkhu Bodhi's lectures on the MN and Sn, as well as other books such as the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. I've also worked though Nina's Abhidhamma in Daily Life. I'm not likely to post here much, since with the background of my mostly Mahasi-School teachers I'm clearly in the "Buddha taught techniques" camp (and I've no interest in arguments) but it's fascinating to see different interpretations of the Dhamma. The points that many here make are very helpful to my understanding. Mike #100891 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:51 pm Subject: Evaporate the Enemy... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Evaporate the Enemy inside by Friendliness! Suppose an enemy has hurt you now, in what is his domain, his house etc... Why try yourself additionally to hurt your mind? That is not his domain! In tears you have left your family, though they had been both kind & nice. So why not leave your 'enemy': The anger that brings you internal harm? This anger that we harbour is gnawing at the very roots of all the qualities and virtues, that we otherwise try to guard and protect! Anger is foolish! Another behaves badly... Then stirred one becomes angry! But how is this? Does one really want to copy the bad behaviour, that he just committed? Suppose another, to annoy, provokes you with some offensive behaviour: Why suffer then by letting anger spring up? One is certainly punished so... If anger-blinded enemies plans conflict, getting angry one-self only grows even more hostility. Therefore put this bitter anger down, since why should one be harassed groundlessly? Since all states last only a moment's time, this 'enemy' has already evaporated, when the sweet revenge is planned... But why then attack an 'absence', that is only an image maintained inside? The 'enemy' never really was there 'outside', but only became interpreted so, by an inner mental pollution called hate, anger, aversion, irritation etc... Vism 301 <...> Have a nice vaporized day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #100892 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta ptaus1 Dear Nina, Azita and Sarah, Thanks for your replies. > S: It should have said: > "...at each moment now, sanna marks a sign of one of the 5 khandhas. Each khandha has its nimitta, because the khandhas arise and fall away so fast that without highly developed panna, it has to be the 'sign' that is marked, just like in the example given in the texts of the swirling fire-stick. pt: Thanks, this is more clear now. A further question on sankhara nimitta: all 5 khandas work at the same time at any given moment of citta, however, only a nimitta of one khanda can be the object of cittas in the first mind-door process that follows the sense-door process. So, I'm trying to understand how does that particular khanda nimitta happen, and not the other 4? Let's take an example of a visual object - when the eye sense-door process happens, the object of cittas in that process is color in the rupa kalapa. 1. Once the sense-door process has finished - the first mind-door process of cittas to follow has (shankara) nimitta of color as the object, right? 2. Sankhara nimitta of colour is nimitta of which khanda? Rupa or sanna? 3. That nimitta is classified as which of the 6 possible mental objects (sensitive matter, subtle matter, citta, cetasika, pannatti and nibbana)? Best wishes pt #100893 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: personal news and Dhamma. kenhowardau Hi Nina, ------- > N: I was just thinking about your question on daana that in the > ultimate sense there is no thing to be given, no giver, no receiver. > Even when we cannot realize this yet directly, even understanding > this intellectually is helpful, it can condition true generosity. > I was stingy about a gift, found it rather costly. Then I thought of > you: well, the thing given is only impermanent ruupas, why should > there be stinginess. > The sotaapanna who has perfectly realized this has no more conditions > for stinginess. > > What about yourself? In how far does it help you in your daily life > to realize all the time that there are only naama and ruupa? Say, > when you are surfing, do you? ------ It definitely helps, although I can still be an irritable old curmudgeon. :-) I often have to share the surf with selfish, inconsiderate people whose oafish behaviour makes me angry. At the time, I seem to think my anger is a good, or appropriate, reaction. But eventually the Dhamma helps me to overcome that wrong view and I remember that anger (dosa) is a conditioned dhamma and always akusala. Or, sometimes I might think, "What is actually happening here? Visible object is appearing at the eye door, . . audible object at the ear door . . There are no really no surfers of either kind - inconsiderate or considerate. There's not even me!" :-) Ken H #100894 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: personal news and Dhamma. nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 27-sep-2009, om 9:27 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > Or, sometimes I might think, "What is actually happening here? Visible > object is appearing at the eye door, . . audible object at the ear > door > . . There are no really no surfers of either kind - inconsiderate or > considerate. There's not even me!" :-) ------- N: Lovely. Here we see that siila really can develop with satipa.t.thaana. That is higher siila, adhisiila. There can be siila because of accumulations, but as you reminded us before: no siila without satipa.t.thaana, actually, no development of siila without satipa.t.thaana. Kind speech is siila, and how it helps when we have some understanding of satipa.t.thaa. When hearing unpleasant words; there is no speaker, no hearer, only hearing citta that hears the ruupa that is sound. Please continue with your reminders that there are only naama and ruupa. We often forget. Nina. #100895 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) nilovg Dear Mike NZ, welcome here. Op 27-sep-2009, om 5:42 heeft mikenz66 het volgende geschreven: > I'm not likely to post here much, since with the background of my > mostly Mahasi-School teachers I'm clearly in the "Buddha taught > techniques" camp (and I've no interest in arguments) but it's > fascinating to see different interpretations of the Dhamma. The > points that many here make are very helpful to my understanding. ------- N: You are so openminded and I appreciate your interest. If you have Q. on my Abh. book, please ask. Do not feel that you are in a special camp, we do not think in such categories, but only in the way of momentary cittas. These do not last, and how could there be a camp :-)). I am not so inclined to arguments either, just in discussing Dhamma. That is the way to learn, I think. Nina. #100896 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. jonoabb Hi Howard (100882) > I'd agree that insight is dependent on calm, but I understand calm to be > possible without insight. In what sense do you see calm as being dependent > on insight? > -------------------------------------------------- > I'm surprised that you would ask that, Jon, unless your question is > rhetorical. We are easily distressed by the ups and downs of things unless a > modicum of right thinking moderates this. Envy, fantasy, lustful desire, > anger, sorrow, etc, etc can be reduced, with their full force held in > abeyance by proper understanding, and this reduction of mental tumult is a calming > of the mind. It is usually not the deepest level of calm attainable, but > it is often sufficient to enable further calm by other means. When there is > enormous distress, for example, attempting to engage in attending to the > breath and other bodily sensations (and whatever else arises) is at best > difficult and often pointless, but if that distress can be tempered by useful > thinking, what was impossible may become possible and deeper calm then > engendered. > =============== Yes, useful thinking may condition greater calm. But useful thinking is not insight. Insight, in the Dhamma sense, usually refers to the direct understanding of a presently arising dhamma, whereas the kind of useful thinking that may condition deeper calm can be experienced by persons who have never heard the teachings. =============== > The connection you make here regarding the "critical importance of jhana" > is a matter of interpretation. The sutta does not say in so many words > that enlightenment can only be achieved by first developing mundane jhana. > -------------------------------------------- > Please read my response above. As for he necessity of jhana, that is > right concentration, and it is a requisite for full awakening if not > lesser stages. In suttas, it is jhana the Buddha speak of, not a "jhana- level > concentration at a path/fruit moment." =============== When the Buddha spoke of jhana in the context of Right Concentration as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path he was referring to the momentary concentration that accompanies the path-moment. =============== > The point to note here is that the Buddha is quoting something said > previously or on another occasion, and is explaining in what sense the words > quoted are to be understood. > ----------------------------------------------- > I don't see this, Jon. =============== I'm referring to the passage: " 'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?" The quoted words are: 'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' The question is then asked "In reference to what was it said?" What follows is thus an explanation of how the quoted words are to be understood. =============== > The jhana enables the insight. What is not clear? =============== That is an interpretation of the text. The relationship of one *enabling* the other is not expressly stated. =============== > The passage does not establish a causal connection between the attainment > of the first jhana and seeing the 5 khandhas as they truly are. It simply > describes the case of the jhana attainer who attains enlightenment. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Jon! That is nonsense. He explicitly is explaining that insight > depends on jhana, and he explains how. > --------------------------------------------------- In this particular sutta there is no mention of insight *depending on* jhana. =============== > Note that the Buddha then goes on to deal separately with each successive > level of jhaana. If he was intending to establish a causal connection, he > need simply have established the minimum requirement (1st jhana) and left > it at that. > -------------------------------------------------- > I guess you don't know what "depends on" means. =============== I hope we're talking about the same sutta here ;-)). No mention of "depends on" in this sutta. =============== > The higher jhanas are not requisite. =============== But if, say, the seventh jhana is requisite, then why is the first jhana also mentioned as being requisite, since the lower is necessarily subsumed by the reference to the higher. Jon #100897 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:21 am Subject: Re: samadhi & Buddha's discovery jonoabb Hi Alex (and KenH) (100871) > > In Abhidhamma terminology, universal means "in all consciousness." > > But how can "un-concentrated" mind or restless mind be one-pointed and concentrated? > =============== An "unconcentrated" or restless mind still has an object, and it is the function of the samadhi mental factor to concentrate the consciousness on that object =============== Furthermore, the Samadhi requires certain conditions such as happiness and tranquility of mind/body. How can these factors be met while one is unhappy or tense - especially when in Hell? =============== You are perhaps thinking of samatha (tranquilly) rather than samadhi (concentration). Samadhi may be kusala or akusala depending on the consciousness with which it arises. =============== > What about people in Hell? Do they have samadhi constantly happening? =============== I assume so. But probably little or no kusala of any kind, so little or no samatha. Jon #100898 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:24 am Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! jonoabb Hi Suan (100864) > For starter, let me teach you something regarding the function of A.t.thasaalinii. > > "Kamma.t.thaanaani sabbaani, cariyaabhiņņaa vipassanaa; > visuddhimagge panidam, yasmaa sabbam pakaasitam. > Tasmaa tam aggahetvaana, sakalaayapi tantiyaa; > padaanukkamato eva, karissaamatthava.n.nanam." > > Ganthaarambhakathaa, A.t.thasaalinii. > > "All the formal samatha methods, character analysis, supernormal knowledge, and vipassanaa methods, since all this practice matter had been expounded in Visuddhimaggo, without taking it up (here again in A.t.thasaalinii), all the terms (in Dhammasanganii) will I make the exposition of only as they appear one after another." =============== Thanks for this translation. I'd be interested to know the Pali term(s) translated by you as "formal samatha methods" and "(formal?) vipassana methods". =============== > The readers will notice that I have translated the term `sikkhaa' as the three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa. This is because sikkhaa means not only siila in this case, but also includes samatha and vipassanaa. The following comes from the commentary on this term in A.t.thasaalinii. > > `Tisso pana sikkhaa atthi nu kho natthii'ti kankhantopi, `tisso sikkhaa > sikkhitapaccayena aanisamso atthi nu kho natthii'ti kankhantopi sikkhaaya kankhati naama.' > > `One who doubts whether or not there are three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa and one who doubts whether or not there is any advantage by the cause of undertaking the three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa represent doubting the three formal practices for nirvana.' > > Section 1008, Nikkhepaka.n.do, A.t.thasaalinii. =============== I'd be interested to know the Pali term(s) translated here as "three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa" and "three formal practices for nirvana". Jon #100899 From: "mikenz66" Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) mikenz66 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: You are so openminded and I appreciate your interest. If you have > Q. on my Abh. book, please ask. Do not feel that you are in a special > camp, we do not think in such categories, but only in the way of > momentary cittas. These do not last, and how could there be a camp :-)). > I am not so inclined to arguments either, just in discussing Dhamma. > That is the way to learn, I think. MikeNZ: Thank you Nina. And I would like to thank you for your book. I have recently been rereading it in parallel with Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary on the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. I personally found this a useful approach. From Bhikkhu Bodhi (and the others who have contributed to this project) I get all the details and tables, but it can become heavy going. From your book I get a nice overview of what you see as the most practical and useful bits of Abhidhamma. I occasionally browse the Abhidhamma Pitaka when I have some spare time at my Wat (they have most of the Tipitika in English --- as well as Thai of course...). However, I'm not really equipped to study the originals properly at this time. I'm still somewhat interested in the point I brought up in my first post. It appears that most of the details about mind-moments (17 mind moments, etc)is Commentarial. It's in the VM and the AS, but not in the Canonical volumes as far as I can see (and as posted by a several people here). I don't say this to necessarily dismiss the ideas (there is a lot of great stuff in Commentary), but I think it is useful to know where the ideas come from. It is particularly helpful to know when talking to those who don't see the Abhidhamma as the word of the Buddha (because in fact what they are saying is not - such as the 17 mind moments - isn't claimed to have been spoken directly by the Buddha if I've understood things correctly). Metta Mike #100900 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:40 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, At another occasion the Bodhisatta saw a corpse. The charioteer explained that that was the corpse of someone who had ended his days. We read: …And Vipassi saw the corpse of him who had ended his days and asked —“What, good charioteer, is ending one’s days?” “It means, my lord, that neither mother, nor father, nor other kinsfolk will see him any more, nor will he ever again see them.” “But am I too then subject to death, have I not got beyond the reach of death? Will neither the King, nor the Queen, nor any other of my relatives see me any more, or I ever again see them?” “You, my lord, and we too, we all are subject to death, we have not passed beyond the reach of death. Neither the King, nor the Queen, nor any other of your relatives would see you any more, nor would you ever again see them.” “Why then, good charioteer, enough of the park for today! Drive me back from here to my rooms.” “Yes, my lord,” replied the charioteer, and drove him back. And he, monks, going to his rooms, sat brooding sorrowful and depressed, thinking—“Shame then verily be upon this thing called birth, since to one born the decay of life, since disease, since death shows itself like that!” After the Bodhisatta had been confronted with an old man, a sick man and a corpse, his fourth encounter was with a monk. The Bodhisatta asked the meaning of being a monk and the charioteer answered that it was being thorough in the religious life, in the peaceful life, in good actions, in meritorious conduct, in harmlessness, and in kindness to all creatures. The Bodhisatta decided to leave his worldly life and to become a monk. The Buddha Gotama, when he was still a Bodhisatta, had the same encounters as the Bodhisatta Vipassi. He also became a monk after his fourth encounter in order to seek the solution to the problem of suffering. He first practised severe austerity, but he saw that that was not the way to find the truth. He decided to discontinue such severe practices and to stop fasting. On the day he was to attain enlightenment he took rice gruel which was offered to him by the girl Sujåtå. Seated under the Bodhi-tree he attained enlightenment. He realized the four noble Truths: the truth of suffering, of the cause of suffering, of the ceasing of suffering and of the Path leading to the ceasing of suffering. He had attained enlightenment at the age of thirty-five years and he taught the Path to others for forty-five years. At the age of eighty he passed away at Kusinårå. ****** Nina. #100901 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:16 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (40-47) , and commentary, part 1. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 40: Walshe DN 33.1.11(40) 'Four bases of sympathy (sa'mgaha-vatthuuni): generosity, pleasing speech, beneficial conduct and impartiality. (Cattaari sa'ngahavatthuuni ņ daana.m, peyyavajja.m [piyavajja.m (syaa. ka.m. ka.)], atthacariyaa, samaanattataa.) --------- N: The Co states that these bases have been explained before, and for this we have to go to D. XXX, 16 of the Lakkha.na sutta. This sutta describes the many excellent qualities of the Buddha in former lives which conditioned his bodily features. As to daana, someone gives to wanderers the requisites that are suitable to wanderes, and to the sick the requisites for the sick. As to pleasing speech, good speech is compared to oil with which one anoints someone else. As to beneficial conduct, this concerns the growth of what is beneficial. Someone may not be inclined to daana nor to kind speech, but he is inclined to beneficial conduct. He thinks: ‘this person must be spoken to, that person should not be spoken to, this person should be followed, that person should not.’ As to impartiality or equanimity, someone may not be inclined to daana etc. but he is equanimous towards sukha and dukkha, happiness and misery. He may be equanimous while he has a solitary life and subsists by eating in only one session. --------- N: One may learn to have equanimity, no matter whether the object that is experienced is pleasant or unpleasant. Whatever is experienced is conditioned, it cannot be altered. Equanimity towards the vicissitudes of life can be a condition for kind speech, even when we are spoken to in unpleasant ways. Siila, including good actions and speech, really can develop with satipa.t.thaana. That is higher siila, adhisiila. Through satipa.t.thaana we can learn that when hearing unpleasant words, there is no speaker, no hearer, only citta that hears the ruupa that is sound. Hearing is vipaakacitta produced by kamma, and thus, there is no person to blame. Right understanding of naama and ruupa conditions equanimity and affectionate speech, no matter what object is experienced, pleasant or unpleasant. We read about affectionate and beneficial speech in the following text: "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill- spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will." AN V.198. The four bases of popularity are very inspiring, especially in the light of satipa.t.thaana. We can learn to think of the benefit of others and less and less of self we are inclined to find so important. Co Pali: Sa"ngahavatthuuniiti sa"ngahakaara.naani. Taani he.t.thaa vibhattaaneva. *********** Nina. #100902 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 3 Sikkhaa (trainings), Suan (1). Was: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! sarahprocter... Dear Suan, Lukas, Nina & all, Sarah:>Sammohavinodanii, commentary to the Vibha.nga (Dispeller, Classification of the Jhaanas 1596): "Furthermore, this whole Dispensation called the three trainings (sikkhaa), owing to being viewed by the Blessed One, owing to having Right View as its condition, owing to having Right View as its precursor, is 'view'...." **** From a discussion in Thailand: KS: "We don't have to say out or speak in words or think in words but the understanding of that characteristic begins to understand its characteristic from other things. The naama and ruupa would become distinguished by awareness and right understanding. So it's not just knowing or reading how many cittas or cetasikas there are because the characteristic of dhamma must be that which is uncontrollable, no one can control it and it has its own characteristic only when it arises. If it does not arise, who can talk about it, who can experience it? Just thinking about it, but whenever it arises without right awareness and right understanding, it's gone all the time unknowingly without pa~n~naa. So one knows who studies and who does not study, because (if) it's only reading - no awareness, no understanding. And we have heard or we have come across the term (threefold) sikkhaa, the sikkhaa - siila sikkha, (samadhi)citta sikkha and pa~n~naa sikkhaa. So sikkhaa means development of siila, citta and pa~n~naa at the moment of awareness which will bring pa~n~naa, understanding, little by little. So sikkhaa is not just reading or learning theoretical words or thinking, but it's the moment of studying with siila sikkhaa which is indriya sikkhaa and citta sikkhaa which is ekaggata cetasika as samaadhi - we don't need extra samaadhi - and pa~n~naa sikkhaa is there with siila and citta. ... Metta Sarah ====== #100903 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:28 pm Subject: Re: 3 Sikkhaa (trainings), Suan (1). Was: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: Sarah: "...KS: 'We don't have to say out or speak in words or think in words but the understanding of that characteristic begins to understand its characteristic from other things...And we have heard or we have come across the term (threefold) sikkhaa, the sikkhaa - siila sikkha, (samadhi)citta sikkha and pa~n~naa sikkhaa. So sikkhaa means development of siila, citta and pa~n~naa at the moment of awareness which will bring pa~n~naa, understanding, little by little..." Scott: Visuddhimagga I (as a bit of a clarification as to what it is that 'sikkhaa' is in relation to as far as siila goes): "...What is virtue? It is the states beginning with volition present in one who abstains from killing living things, etc.; or in one who fulfils the practice of duties. For this is said in the Pa.tisambhidaa: 'What is virtue? There is , virtue as consciousness-concomitant, virtue as restraint, virtue as non-transgression' (Ps.1.44)...In what sense is it virtue? It is virtue (siila) in the sense of composing (siilana). What is this composing? It is either a coordinating (samaadhaana), meaning non-inconsistency of bodily action, etc., due to virtuousness; or it is an upholding (upadhaara.na), meaning a state of basis (aadhaara) owing to its serving as foundation for profitable states...Now what are its characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause? Here: The characteristic of it is composing Even when analysed in various ways. As visibility is of visible data Even when analysed in various ways. Just as visibleness is the characteristic of visible-data base even when analysed into various categories of blue, yellow, etc., because even when analysed into these categories it does not exceed visibleness, so also with this same composing, described above as the coordinating of bodily action etc., and as the foundation of profitable states, is the characteristic of virtue even when analysed into the various categories of volition etc., because even when analysed into these categories it does not exceed the state of coordination and foundation. While such is its characteristic: Its function has a double sense; Action to stop misconduct, then Achievement as the quality Of blamelessness in virtuous men. So what is called virtue should be understood to have the function (nature) of stopping misconduct as its function (nature) in the sense of action, and a blameless function (nature) as its function (nature) in the sense of achievement. For under [these headings of] characteristic etc., it is action (kicca) or it is achievement (sampatti) that is called function (rasa - nature). Now virtue, so say those who know, Itself as purity will show; And for its proximate causes they tell The pair, conscience and shame, as well. This virtue is manifested as the kinds of purity stated thus: 'Bodily purity, verbal purity, mental purity' (A.i, 271); it is manifested, comes to be apprehended, as a pure state. But conscience and shame are said by those who know to be its proximate cause; its near reason, is the meaning. For when conscience and shame are in existence, virtue arises and persists; and when they are not, it neither arises nor persists. This is how virtue's characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause should be understood." Sincerely, Scott. #100904 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/27/2009 4:18:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (100882) > I'd agree that insight is dependent on calm, but I understand calm to be > possible without insight. In what sense do you see calm as being dependent > on insight? > -------------------------------------------------- > I'm surprised that you would ask that, Jon, unless your question is > rhetorical. We are easily distressed by the ups and downs of things unless a > modicum of right thinking moderates this. Envy, fantasy, lustful desire, > anger, sorrow, etc, etc can be reduced, with their full force held in > abeyance by proper understanding, and this reduction of mental tumult is a calming > of the mind. It is usually not the deepest level of calm attainable, but > it is often sufficient to enable further calm by other means. When there is > enormous distress, for example, attempting to engage in attending to the > breath and other bodily sensations (and whatever else arises) is at best > difficult and often pointless, but if that distress can be tempered by useful > thinking, what was impossible may become possible and deeper calm then > engendered. > =============== Yes, useful thinking may condition greater calm. But useful thinking is not insight. Insight, in the Dhamma sense, usually refers to the direct understanding of a presently arising dhamma, whereas the kind of useful thinking that may condition deeper calm can be experienced by persons who have never heard the teachings. ----------------------------------------------- Intellectual right understanding is a primitive "touch" of insight, IMO. It is an important beginning, and it can calm the mind. Full fledged wisdom can uproot defilements and create pristine equanimity, a calm/peace that "goes beyond". ----------------------------------------------- =============== > The connection you make here regarding the "critical importance of jhana" > is a matter of interpretation. The sutta does not say in so many words > that enlightenment can only be achieved by first developing mundane jhana. > -------------------------------------------- > Please read my response above. As for he necessity of jhana, that is > right concentration, and it is a requisite for full awakening if not > lesser stages. In suttas, it is jhana the Buddha speak of, not a "jhana- level > concentration at a path/fruit moment." =============== When the Buddha spoke of jhana in the context of Right Concentration as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path he was referring to the momentary concentration that accompanies the path-moment. ---------------------------------------------- You might add "I believe" to your statement, Jon. (I do not.) ----------------------------------------------- =============== > The point to note here is that the Buddha is quoting something said > previously or on another occasion, and is explaining in what sense the words > quoted are to be understood. > ----------------------------------------------- > I don't see this, Jon. =============== I'm referring to the passage: " 'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?" The quoted words are: 'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' The question is then asked "In reference to what was it said?" What follows is thus an explanation of how the quoted words are to be understood. ------------------------------------------------ Well, yes, but it is not referencing another teaching. ---------------------------------------------- =============== > The jhana enables the insight. What is not clear? =============== That is an interpretation of the text. The relationship of one *enabling* the other is not expressly stated. =============== > The passage does not establish a causal connection between the attainment > of the first jhana and seeing the 5 khandhas as they truly are. It simply > describes the case of the jhana attainer who attains enlightenment. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Jon! That is nonsense. He explicitly is explaining that insight > depends on jhana, and he explains how. > --------------------------------------------------- In this particular sutta there is no mention of insight *depending on* jhana. ----------------------------------------- You are right. He talks directly of ending the fermentations. It is said again & again & again throughout the sutta, Jon, that the ending of the fermentations depends on jhana. That uprooting of defilements is accomplished by the sword of wisdom at a moment of awakening. But the piercing wisdom which uproots defilements is conditioned by jhana. In this sutta the Buddha describes a meditator engaged in jhana, then turning his mind towards Dhamma, and staying with this, uprooting the defilements. The Buddha uses an archer simile, likening jhana practice and application to the repeated practice of an archer: "Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. ---------------------------------------- =============== > Note that the Buddha then goes on to deal separately with each successive > level of jhaana. If he was intending to establish a causal connection, he > need simply have established the minimum requirement (1st jhana) and left > it at that. > -------------------------------------------------- > I guess you don't know what "depends on" means. =============== I hope we're talking about the same sutta here ;-)). No mention of "depends on" in this sutta. -------------------------------------------- The word 'pa~n~na' doesn't appear, but "depends on" certainly appears again & again, with the ending of the fermentations said to depend on jhana. And, of course, there are other suttas that explicitly speak of insight as depending on concentration. The first sutta of the book of tens in A.N. gives the following chain of dependency (as we have discussed before): Virtuous ways of conduct -> Non-remorse -> Gladness -> Joy -> Serenity -> Happiness -> Concentration of the mind -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. Moreover, there is also the Dhammapada material in the signature quote I give at the end of this post that indicates insight depending on jhana. It shows a mutual dependency. -------------------------------------------- =============== > The higher jhanas are not requisite. =============== But if, say, the seventh jhana is requisite, then why is the first jhana also mentioned as being requisite, since the lower is necessarily subsumed by the reference to the higher. --------------------------------------------------- The sutta is worded oddly. I take it that some jhana, it could be any, is requisite. --------------------------------------------------- Jon ============================= With metta, Howard Samatha & Vipassana /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) #100905 From: "freawaru80" Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. freawaru80 Dear Nina, Thank you for your explanations. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > N: The terms concentration, feeling etc. have a meaning in everyday > language different from the meaning as explained in the Abhidhamma. I wouldn't say the suttas are written in "everyday language" but yes, this might be possible. When investigating new frontiers (such as the mind on a high time resolution as in Abhidhamma) new terms are required :) But why did the Buddha choose to use and alter the meaning of the terms of His own suttas? After all, samadhi does not even mean "concentration". And there are many other possibilities to choose from when referring to a different context. The process you described would be more appropriately called "linking" or "connecting" for example. "Fixation" (samadhi) gives a too lasting impression for my taste if you know what I mean, not to mention the loaded meaning from the sutric context (lucidity etc). "Connecting" (whatever it is in Pali) citta with it's object would be a much more neutral describtion, not implying any duration, nor lucidity. > It seems that concentration can last, but in reality it arises and > falls away. Wholesome samaadhi is developed in samatha and it can > reach the stage of jhaana, but even then it arises and falls away. What exactly do you mean by samatha? I know the general Theravadan definition based on jhana (and the Tibetan one: zhine) but I don't know if you use another definition here, too, as in the case of samadhi. > The characteristic and function refer to samaadhi > in a wider sense, samaadhi accompanying each citta. > You were wondering about the distracted mind: also then there is one- > pointedness on the object citta experiences. Each citta experiences > an object and it needs samaadhi to focus on it. Yes, the translation of citta as "mind" or "consciousness" is quite misleading. If I understand you correctly in Abhidhamma terminology "citta" is that what experiences. But there are two very different "modes", one is experiencing and the other is observing. What is the Abhidhammic name of that what observes. It cannot be citta as it is not experiencing. > Samaadhi is a jhaanafactor and in the Pa.t.thana (Conditional > Relations, the seventh book of the Abhidhamma) it is explained that > it conditions the accompanying dhammas by way of jhaana-condition. I > wrote before (in my Conditions): > < The term jhåna in jhåna-condition is used in a wider sense than > jhåna developed in samatha by means of the jhåna-factors that are the > sobhana cetasikas mentioned above. The jhåna-factors that are jhåna- > condition for the citta they accompany are not only the sobhana > cetasikas developed in samatha; they arise with cittas which are > kusala, akusala, vipåka or kiriya. The jhåna-factors in the sense of > jhåna-condition assist the citta and the other cetasikas they > accompany to be firmly fixed on the object that is experienced. > Without the assistance of the jhåna-factors good or evil deeds cannot > be performed. > > > Thus even a thief needs concentration to break into a house. Even a > hunter needs concentration to shoot an animal. > > We read in the 'Guide to Conditional Relations' by U Naarada (a > respected Sayadaw from Birma): > < Without jhaana condiiton it would not be possible to shoot birds > and animals, to clearly distinguish what and whose form it is, to > take one straight step forward correctly, for, if at the beginning > the foot was pointed eastwards, it would point southwards in the > middle and westwards at the end of the step... , to pronounce one > word correctly. This shows how swiftly the mind is distracted and > changed. So the mind may be compared to a young and wild bull and > jhaana condition to the rope, post, grass and water which keeps the > bull under control and prevents it from wandering away.> Okay, so much is clear. It describes how work and experience is constructed. But I think one also needs to discern here between doing/working and experiencing. When the brain doesn't work properly the person's body and mind (not in the sense of citta) does something (like walking, recognizing form, etc) but the experience of it (citta) does not arise or is separated from it as it happens in several disorders. So not always does citta (that what experiences) accompany the jhana conditions. How is this described in the Abhidhamma, what differs between those two: "normal" and "disorder"? I fear I still find it hard to accept the naming. Why call them "jhana conditions"? I mean how do they relate to jhana in the sutric sense? How do they, say, resemble the conditions for the fifth jhana ? > Later on I come back to your other points. I am looking forward to it. Freawaru #100906 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mikenz66" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N: You are so openminded and I appreciate your interest. If you have > > Q. on my Abh. book, please ask. Do not feel that you are in a special > > camp, we do not think in such categories, but only in the way of > > momentary cittas. These do not last, and how could there be a camp :-)). > > I am not so inclined to arguments either, just in discussing Dhamma. > > That is the way to learn, I think. > > MikeNZ: Thank you Nina. And I would like to thank you for your book. I have recently been rereading it in parallel with Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary on the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. I personally found this a useful approach. From Bhikkhu Bodhi (and the others who have contributed to this project) I get all the details and tables, but it can become heavy going. From your book I get a nice overview of what you see as the most practical and useful bits of Abhidhamma. > > I occasionally browse the Abhidhamma Pitaka when I have some spare time at my Wat (they have most of the Tipitika in English --- as well as Thai of course...). However, I'm not really equipped to study the originals properly at this time. > > I'm still somewhat interested in the point I brought up in my first post. It appears that most of the details about mind-moments (17 mind moments, etc)is Commentarial. It's in the VM and the AS, but not in the Canonical volumes as far as I can see (and as posted by a several people here). I don't say this to necessarily dismiss the ideas (there is a lot of great stuff in Commentary), but I think it is useful to know where the ideas come from. It is particularly helpful to know when talking to those who don't see the Abhidhamma as the word of the Buddha (because in fact what they are saying is not - such as the 17 mind moments - isn't claimed to have been spoken directly by the Buddha if I've understood things correctly). > > Metta > Mike > Hello MikeNZ, All, You are right. 17 mind moments are NOT found in abhidamma pitaka. Does it ever say anywhere in Abhidhamma Pitaka that "On such and such an occasion the Blessed One has said to the devas ..." or "Thus have I heard... The Blessed One addressed the devas..." I hope you understand what I mean. With metta, Alex #100907 From: "mikenz66" Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) mikenz66 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > You are right. 17 mind moments are NOT found in abhidamma pitaka. > > Does it ever say anywhere in Abhidhamma Pitaka that "On such and such an occasion the Blessed One has said to the devas ..." or "Thus have I heard... The Blessed One addressed the devas..." > > I hope you understand what I mean. MikeNZ: No, I'm sorry, I'm feeling a little dense this morning. Perhaps you mean to imply that all of the Abhidhamma is commentarial. I'm more interested in getting straight what the Classical Theravada position is. Metta Mike #100908 From: "freawaru80" Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:07 pm Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. freawaru80 Hi Ken, -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > In Abhidhamma terminology, universal means "in all consciousness." So > samadhi can be good or evil, exalted or lowly, developed or undeveloped > (etc) - depending on the consciousness at the time. Consciousness means "citta" here, i.e. that what experiences? > But in all cases it > is complete one-pointedness of mind. So it is just like the samadhi > known to the meditation community, but "with respect to things unheard > before." No. In the "meditation community" as you call it, samadhi is more than one-pointedness. Samadhi implies lucidity. The way you describe the Abhidhammic definition of samadhi there is no lucidity. > Do you have 'The Buddhist Dictionary' by Nyanatiloka? (It's on line.) > That would be a good place to start. It leaves no doubt that samadhi is > a universal mental state. Yes, I use it. But it does not discern between terminology used in the suttas, Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga etc. And they don't seem to use the terms in an identical way. > I think you are confusing "samadhi" with "samma-sammadhi of the > Eightfold Path." Maybe ;) > ------------------------- > F: > Momentary concentration jumps from one object to the next, I agree. > -------------------------- > > Are you referring to one of the suttas that use the simile of a monkey > swinging from branch to branch? Actually, I refer to the kind of concentration used in the vipassana state. In vipassana one does not hold/fix concentration on an object. The awareness has spread out and one can direct the concentration from one object to another to investigate them or it does so on it's own. > I think we agree by now that the meditation community uses terms > differently from the way the Theravada texts use them. I am sure most Theravadan bhikkhus and bhikkhunies don't agree with this statement - as they are part of that meditation community and use the suttas and commentary in the light of those experiences. > Here again, we see the difference between the meditator's form of > samadhi - which is experienced by people - and the Abhidhamma's form of > samadhi, which is experienced by momentary conditioned dhammas. If I cannot experience it what use is it for me or my practice? It cannot even be verified or falified. It cannot be manipulated for better or for worse. Or do you mean it is as seen from a high vipassana perspective - at least that one should have the necessary high resolution regarding time? > Conditioned dhammas move at hyper-speed and they experience other > dhammas at hyper-speed. It is no trouble for them. :-) Sure. Electrons can also interact with other electrons on a hight speed. The question is why should this knowledge be usefull for Liberation? Freawaru #100909 From: "Michael" Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:48 am Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. mikenz66 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "freawaru80" wrote: > > Ken: Do you have 'The Buddhist Dictionary' by Nyanatiloka? (It's on line.) > > That would be a good place to start. It leaves no doubt that samadhi is > > a universal mental state. > > Freawaru: Yes, I use it. But it does not discern between terminology used in the suttas, Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga etc. And they don't seem to use the terms in an identical way. MikeNZ: In the Appendix http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Buddhist.Dictionary/dic4_append.htm there is a useful summary of terminology in the different layers. For example, related to samadhi: "Samādhi: parikamma , upacāra and appanā-s.: are found only in the Com." See also entries for Citta-vīthi, Javana, Yogāvacara, etc... Mike #100910 From: "dhammanando_bhikkhu" Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:24 am Subject: Re: Sex. . . dhammanando_... Hi Rob, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > This is a subject I struggle with, especially as I live with a girl, in sin, as my mother would say (or would have said 30 years ago- she seems to be more 'broadminded' now). Now Junko is 29 and her parents know that we live together- in fact we visted them in Japan and stayed in a room in their house. > Am I nevertheless in breech of the precept? I would say not. The mere fact that a woman's parents are still alive doesn't in itself make her maaturakkhita or piturakkhita, not even if she still resides with them. I can't quote the relevant passage for you as I'm away from my library, but the Vinaya commentary's definition of "woman protected by her mother [father, brother …. etc.]" describes an arrangement in which the woman is living in absolute subjection to the control of her protectors. She is kept indoors, prohibited from seeing men or being seen by men, is forbidden to go anywhere, and is obliged to follow her protector's every wish. In other words, we're talking about the purdah-like arrangement found in traditional Muslim societies and formerly in India among the brahmins. I don't think this would quite fit Junko's case. :) > Does it all change if we get married? By the Vinaya commentary's criteria you are already married. Junko would be classed as a chandavaasinii, the second of the ten kinds of wife. Best wishes, Dhammanando #100912 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:20 am Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. kenhowardau Hi Freawaru, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "freawaru80" wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" kenhowardau@ wrote: > > > > > > In Abhidhamma terminology, universal means "in all consciousness." So > > samadhi can be good or evil, exalted or lowly, developed or undeveloped > > (etc) - depending on the consciousness at the time. > > Consciousness means "citta" here, i.e. that what experiences? ------------------------- Yes, citta is a mental phenomenon (nama). Nama always experiences something. --------------------- F: In the "meditation community" as you call it, samadhi is more than one-pointedness. Samadhi implies lucidity. The way you describe the Abhidhammic definition of samadhi there is no lucidity. ----------------------- In Abhidhamma terminology, the lucidity you are referring to would be just a form of thinking (pannatti). There is, however, something called 'clarity of consciousness' (sampajanna) but that term applies to the way consciousness can rightly understand its object. Right understanding can happen only when the true Dhamma has been heard and wisely considered. --------------------- <. . .> F: . . . it does not discern between terminology used in the suttas, Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga etc. And they don't seem to use the terms in an identical way. ----------------------- The texts contain different ways of teaching, but don't let that confuse you. There is only one Dhamma. If you can point to any apparent inconsistencies please do so. They are always excellent topics for discussion at DSG. ------------------------------- KH: . . . the meditation community uses terms > differently from the way the Theravada texts use them. F: > I am sure most Theravadan bhikkhus and bhikkhunies don't agree with this statement - as they are part of that meditation community and use the suttas and commentary in the light of those experiences. ------------------------------- I should apologise for not having read your introduction carefully enough. I had the impression you were mainly interested in meditation (hatha yoga etc.) and were just beginning to inquire into the Dhamma to see what similarities there might have been. But now I realise you have been studying Theravada for some time. Unfortunately you have only studied the modern, popular, versions of Theravada. But never mind, you're in the right place now. :-) ----------------- KH: > > Here again, we see the difference between the meditator's form of > samadhi - which is experienced by people - and the Abhidhamma's form of > samadhi, which is experienced by momentary conditioned dhammas. F: > If I cannot experience it what use is it for me or my practice? --------------- As you know [from the doctrine of anatta] there is no self. Concepts of "me" and "my practice" do not apply in the Dhamma. --------------- F: > It cannot even be verified or falsified. It cannot be manipulated for better or for worse. <. . .> The question is why should this knowledge be useful for Liberation? --------------- There are only namas and rupas, but that doesn't mean there can't be right practice, verification and liberation. That's because there is a Middle Way. A way of things "unheard before." Ken H #100913 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:01 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, His teachings have been preserved in the Buddhist scriptures of the Vinaya (Book of Discipline for the monks), the Suttas (the Discourses), and the Abhidhamma (the “Higher Teachings”). These scriptures which have been written in the Påli language are of the Theravåda tradition. The term “Theravåda” (Hínayåna or “Small vehicle” is no longer used) could be translated as “the School of the Elders”. There is also the Mahåyåna tradition which developed later on. The two traditions are in agreement with several points of the Buddha’s teachings, but they are different as regards the practice, the development of the Buddha’s Path leading to the realization of the truth. The Theravåda tradition is followed in Thailand, Sri Lanka, Laos, Cambodia and Bangladesh. The Mahåyåna tradition is followed in China, Japan, Tibet and Mongolia. The Buddha, at his enlightenment, understood that the cause of suffering is craving. He saw that when there is the cessation of craving there will be an end to suffering. What the Buddha teaches is contrary to what people generally are seeking in life. Every being has craving for the experience of pleasant things and therefore wishes to continue to obtain such objects. The Buddha was, after his enlightenment, for a moment not inclined to teach the truth he had realized under the Bodhi-tree. He knew that the “Dhamma”, his teaching of the truth, would be difficult to understand by those who delighted in sense pleasures. We read in the Middle Length Sayings (I, number 26, The Ariyan Quest), that the Buddha related to the monks his quest for the truth when he was still a Bodhisatta, his enlightenment and his disinclination to teaching. We read that the Buddha said: This that through many toils I’ve won— Enough! Why should I make it known? By folk with lust and hate consumed This Dhamma is not understood. Leading on against the stream Deep, subtle, difficult to see, delicate, Unseen it will be by passion’s slaves Cloaked in the murk of ignorance. We then read that the Brahmå Sahampati, a heavenly being, implored the Buddha to teach the truth. ***** Nina. #100914 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) nilovg Dear Mike NZ, You live in a Thai Wat. Are you a bhikkhu, a novice or a layman? I ask this so that we can address you correctly. What edition of my ADL do you have? The latest is of 1997, and here I have more notes on the sources. If you do not have this, we can send it to you. Just now I am busy with revision again, the printer says he is short of books and needs a reprint. Op 27-sep-2009, om 10:30 heeft mikenz66 het volgende geschreven: > It appears that most of the details about mind-moments (17 mind > moments, etc)is Commentarial. It's in the VM and the AS, but not in > the Canonical volumes as far as I can see (and as posted by a > several people here). I don't say this to necessarily dismiss the > ideas (there is a lot of great stuff in Commentary), but I think it > is useful to know where the ideas come from. It is particularly > helpful to know when talking to those who don't see the Abhidhamma > as the word of the Buddha (because in fact what they are saying is > not - such as the 17 mind moments - isn't claimed to have been > spoken directly by the Buddha if I've understood things correctly). -------- N: I quote from my preface: You will be surprised what the Pa.tisambhidaamagga gives. Often cittas are referred to as elemnts, manodhaatu, manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu, and if one is not sure about these meanings one does not recognize which citta is referred to. -------- The number seventeen is from the Co. It indicates a complete sense- door process, including the preceding bhavangacittas. We cannot count these moments. But it is useful to know this. Ruupa lasts longer than citta. There is first just seeing visible object, after that akusala cittas such as like or dislike, or kusala cittas. All in one process. ------- Nina. #100915 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? sarahprocter... Dear pt & all, --- On Sat, 26/9/09, ptaus1 wrote: >1. Kamma patha - full course of action does indeed seem to depend on other people, as is evident from the quotes you provided. But, what would be the akusala kamma patha in terms of the actor on a stage (or more precise a person telling a joke)? To summarise kamma pathas: Bodily - killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. Verbal - false speech, slandering, harsh speech and frivolous talk. Mental - covetousness, ill will and wrong view. I'm not sure that any kamma patha applies to the actor on the stage (or a person telling a joke)? Maybe false speech? But then, the audience is aware that it is a play/joke, not a dhamma talk for example, so IÃĒ₮â„Ēm not sure if false speech applies in this situation? .... S: I agree with you. Just like when we laugh or sing or play music - lots of akusala just as during most of the day, but usually it's sama lobha (ordinary lobha) as opposed to visama lobha (out of the ordinary lobha), which leads to improper behaviour and full kamma patha. ... >Further, in terms of the other arts, it's even less likely that kamma patha happens - let's take an example of a musician - I can't think of a single kamma patha that would apply in case of the musician performing a musical piece. Can you? ... S: No, unless there were some seriously deviant cittas whilst playing. ... >Unless mental kamma patha of covetousness applies not just to coveting other's property, but also coveting other's attention, appreciation, liking, respect, etc? In that case it might apply in the case of a musician. ... S: I don't think so. Sometimes some kamma patha factors are there, but not 'full' kamma patha - such as when intending to kill an insect, but not doing so. In the examples you give, I'd say it's mostly just common lobha, such as arises throughout the day. Of course, there can also be kusala, such as daana - the gift of sound and so on. Also, of course, satipatthana can arise at any moment, even whilst performing on stage. We can't tell by the cittas, only understand what appears at the present moment. If we thought that we shouldn't perform on stage, play music or paint a picture because it would impede kusala and, in particular, satipatthana, then this would be wrong view, as I see it. ... >2. Underlying tendencies - this is a different matter. I think it's fairly clear that liking/disliking of a moment in a play, or a joke, or a musical piece strengthens the underlying tendencies of delusion, greed and hate. But, I'd say that here each person is responsible for himself - i.e. the actor is responsible for his own tendencies, and an audience member for his own, even if they arise in response to someone else's joke, or music, or words, etc. Would you agree? .... S: Yes. We present gifts to others to make them feel happy. Usually they respond with lobha, but that doesn't detract from the daana. ... >And an aside question - do underlying tendencies count as kamma indirectly? It seems there are two unwholesome things being accumulated in an akusala moment: underlying tendencies ÃĒ₮" when they do not lead to a full course of action, and kamma ÃĒ₮" when underlying tendencies do happen to lead to a full course of action. ... S: I think they're related. As I'm sure you know, the texts refer to coarse, medium and subtle kilesa (defilements). Vitikkama kilesa are the coarse defilements as are involved in akusala kamma patha, such as killing, stealing and lying. pariyutthaana kilesa are the medium defilements which oftena arise during the day, as in the examples you give. They don't have the strength or intensity to lead to akusala kamma patha. Anusaya are the latent tendencies which lie dormant with each citta until eradicated. The Buddha stressed the "seeing of the danger in the slightest fault", because any kind of akusala accumulates and lies dormant, ready to manifest again. If the accumulation becomes strong enough, then it leads to akusala kamma patha. ... >In particular, here's a quote from Nyanatiloka' s dictionary on anusaya: "According to Kath. [pt: this is probably Kathavatthu] several ancient Buddhist schools erroneously held the opinion that the anusayas, as such, meant merely latent, hence karmically neutral qualities, which however contradicts the Theravada conception." ... S: Yes, Kathavatthu. As he says, anusaya are not "karmically neutral qualities", they are particular unwholesome tendencies, 'microbes', that can manifest whenever the conditions are there. Perhaps I'll check the Kath. later. For the use of kamma, sometimes it refers to cetana, any cetana and sometimes to kamma patha, so we need to read carefully. ... >So, I guess in "Theravada conception" underlying tendencies are kammically active, but I wonder in what sense in cases when they do not lead to a full course of action? ... S: I wouldn't say the anusaya are "kammically active" - they are latent. only when the tendency has been accumulated to the degree that the akusala which manifests is of the strength of kamma patha, would I refer to such akusala as "kammically active", but it may be a confusing phrase. We could say that any cetana is "kammically active" in a sense. ... OK, just checked: Kathavatthu, probably Bk X1, 1 (PTS transl): "Controverted Points (1) That latent bias is unmoral (indeterminate)" summary from the commentary. "That latent bias in its seven forms is i) umoral, ii) without moral or immoral motive, iii) independent of mind, is an opinion held, for instance, by the Mahaasanghikas and the Sammitiyas. They allege that it is not right to say that the average man, while moral, or unmoral consciousness is going on, has latent bias, since the motive or condition of such consciousness cannot cause latent bias [to manifest itself], nor is such consciousness conjoined with any form of bias." Part of the dialogue: "M.S. - Do you tell me then that good and bad ideas can come together side by side in consciousness? Th. - nay, that cannot truly be said... M.S. - then latent bias must be ummoral. Th. - Then you must go further and admit that lust is unmoral, because you will agree that the average man, when thinking good or unmoral thoughts, has not got rid the while of the root-condition of lust or greed...." ... S: Seems to cling it! [Of course, lots more under 'Anusaya' in U.P.] I'll look forward to any of your further reflections on any of this, p.t. I like the way you consider and reflect deeply on what you read and hear. Metta Sarah ======== #100916 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhs. past, present and future khandhas sarahprocter... Dear Alberto, #100879 --- On Sat, 26/9/09, sprlrt wrote: >Hi, Dhammasangani, as it's dealing with khandhas/sankhara/ paramattha dhammas, doesn't take into account conventional time, i.e. yesterday, today, tomorrow, last/current/ next month, week, year etc.; it only refers to it as now, after and before that - Alberto ... S Nicely presented! Metta Sarah p.s We recently got a refund from Trenitallia for our ticket for the train to Via Reggio that was cancelled:-) Full marks to them ... - [Present] 1041., 1046. What dhammas have [just] arisen (uppanna)? / been conditioned to arise (paccuppanna) ? The dhammas that have [just]: <...> #100917 From: "Mike" Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) mikenz66 Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: You live in a Thai Wat. Are you a bhikkhu, a novice or a layman? I > ask this so that we can address you correctly. Mike: Sorry, perhaps I was not clear. I meant the Thai Wat in my city that I visit (I do live there sometimes when on retreat of course). I'm a lay person. > N: What edition of my ADL do you have? The latest is of 1997, and here I > have more notes on the sources. If you do not have this, we can send > it to you. Just now I am busy with revision again, the printer says > he is short of books and needs a reprint. Mike: I've got a PDF called adlfinal.pdf The PDF properties say: Title: ADL for the web Author: Alan Friday 19 December 1999 The last index page is numered 264. > N: Although not all the details concerning the processes of cittas can > be found in the scriptures themselves, the commentaries are firmly > based on the scriptures. ... Mike: Yes, I wasn't intending to sound negative about Commentaries, I was just pointing out that some who are negative about the Abhidhamma originating with the Buddha quote examples from Commentaries. Thank you again for your help. Metta Mike #100918 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:34 am Subject: Re: There is More to Samadhi/Ken (Re: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board.) sarahprocter... Hi Howard & Ken H, Just a brief butt in and out of your helpful discussion... >>H: The following is from the Satipatthana Sutta: > > > "When the mind is constricted, he discerns that the mind is constricted. > When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the > mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is > not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is > surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is > unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is > concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not > concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is > released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, > he discerns that the mind is not released. > > > There is always but one object of consciousness. But there is NOT > always concentration. Note the Buddha saying in the foregoing: "When the mind > is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind > is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. " > ------------ ------- K:> Sometimes the suttas seem to be teaching a conventional reality (of lasting things), but there is always an explanation. The commentary to the sutta will no doubt explain the terms 'constricted' 'scattered' 'enlarged' 'surpassed' and 'concentrated' and they will not contradict the Abhidhamma in any way. ... S: Yes, any citta that arises can be the object of satipatthana. For the last two mentioned above: "Samaahitam cittam = 'the quieted state of consciousness.' It refers to the conscious state of him who has full or partial absorption. "Asamaahitam cittam = 'The state of consciousness not quieted.' It refers to the state without either absorption." Like now, the citta with lobha or dosa, calm or not calm can arise and be known directly, just as it is. ... >K: If I were to hazard a guess I would say the term 'concentrated mind' in this case referred to jhana, and 'not concentrated mind' referred to any kind of mind other than jhana. In both cases, as in all cases, there is the type of concentration (samadhi) that fixes the mind to its object. Mind depends on being fixed to an object. Otherwise there would be no mind of any kind. If there were no mind of any kind the terms 'constricted' 'scattered' . . . and 'concentrated mind' would have nothing to apply to. ... S: Yes, well-said. A scattered or 'not quieted' citta is also accompanied by ekaggata citta which fixes the citta onto its object. Carry on... Metta Sarah ====== #100919 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:10 am Subject: Breaking down the Barriers! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Relief of Relinquishing all Resentment! When one's resentment towards any hostile person has been allayed, then one can deliberately turn mind with loving-kindness towards any person: Both the very dear friend, the neutral person and the hostile opponent! By repeated praxis of meditation on infinite friendliness one gradually breaks down the mental barrier of evil opposition thereby accomplishing mental impartiality towards the 4 persons: oneself, the very dear person, the neutral person and the hostile person. Suppose a trainee is sitting in a place with a dear, a neutral, and a hostile person, himself being the 4th. Then bandits come to him and say, 'Venerable friend, give us a person so that we may kill him and use the blood of his throat as an offering'...! When one does not see a single one among these four people suitable to be given to the bandits and one directs mind impartially towards oneself and towards those three people, then one has broken down the barriers... Breaking the Barrier to: Impartiality Therefore the Ancient Nobles said: When he does not discriminates between the 4 persons: That is: Himself, the dear, the neutral, and the hostile one, Then "Skilled" is not the name he gets, nor "Most Friendly", But only "Kind towards all beings". Now when a bhikkhu's barriers towards all the 4 persons have been broken down, The he treats with equal amity all beings in the whole world; Exalted and distinguished is he, who knows no barriers... Vism 307 <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri #100920 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:41 am Subject: Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) sprlrt Hi MikeNZ (Nina & all), Some more text references where the Abhidhamma proper spells out the names of the paramattha dhammas (citta & cetasikas) and their arising order in a sense door process (mind door ones last less than 17 citta moments, the duration of rųpa), I have enclosed them in single quotes: - at least one (no up to limit) 'bhavanga'/life continuum citta, (in ananantara/contiguity, samanantara/proximity, anantarupanissaya, natthi/absence, vigata/gone-by paccaya/condition, abyākata->abyākata, Patthāna 417, 418, 423, 436, 437), - plus one 'avajjana'/adverting citta, 'kiriya-mano-dhatu' (same ref. as 'bhavanga' and also at Dhs. 566); - plus one 'chakku' or ... 'kaya-viņņana-dhatu', of the (10, dvi) 'vipāka-paņca-viņņana' (Pth.4, 5, 22, 23; Dhs. 431...); - plus one 'vipaka-mano-dhatu', (sampaticchana, receiving - Dhs. 455.) - plus one 'vipaka-mano-viņņana-dhatu', (santirana, investigating - Dhs. 469, 484); - plus one votthapana/determining citta as 'kiriya-mano-viņņana-dhatu' (Dhs. 568), - plus several (up to seven) 'kusala' or 'akusala-mano-viņņana-dhatu' (javana cittas, as 'asevana'/repetition condition, Pth 426: kusala -> kusala, akusala -> akusala, kiriyaabyākata -> kiriyaabyākata (i.e. the arahant cittas replacing kusala ones), - plus one (or none, up to two) 'vipāka tadārammanata'/receiving citta / 'vipaka-mano-viņņana dhatu' (in ārammana/object condition, Pth. 406. / and Dhs., same as santirana). Dhammasangani also specifies the possible objects of each single citta, and for avajjana/kiriya mano-dhatu, chakku...kaya-viņņana-dhatu, and sampaticchana/vipāka mano-dhatu, these can be only one of the seven rųpas impinging on the 5 senses; the object of the other cittas (kiriya, vipāka and kusala or akusala mano-viņņana-dhatu) can be dhamma-ārammana as well, wich includes nimittas, (shadows of realities and concepts), the objects of mind door processes. Alberto --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mikenz66" wrote: > ... > I'm still somewhat interested in the point I brought up in my first post. It appears that most of the details about mind-moments (17 mind moments, etc)is Commentarial. It's in the VM and the AS, but not in the Canonical volumes as far as I can see (and as posted by a several people here). I don't say this to necessarily dismiss the ideas (there is a lot of great stuff in Commentary), but I think it is useful to know where the ideas come from. It is particularly helpful to know when talking to those who don't see the Abhidhamma as the word of the Buddha (because in fact what they are saying is not - such as the 17 mind moments - isn't claimed to have been spoken directly by the Buddha if I've understood things correctly). > > Metta > Mike > #100921 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) nilovg Dear Alberto, Thank you for your helpful specifications. Nina. Op 28-sep-2009, om 9:41 heeft sprlrt het volgende geschreven: > Some more text references where the Abhidhamma proper spells out > the names of the paramattha dhammas (citta & cetasikas) and their > arising order in a sense door process (mind door ones last less > than 17 citta moments, the duration of rųpa), I have enclosed them > in single quotes: #100922 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Hi pt & Chew, Just a few reflections.... --- On Wed, 23/9/09, ptaus1 wrote: >pt:Thanks for this. It's quite interesting that both Ledi Sayadaw and Mahasi Sayadaw list these mind-door processes that seem to appear in fixed sequence after the sense-door process, so I'm wondering whether they do this based on their own experiences, or on some particular commentary source. ... S: Sometime back I checked all this out as best I could and I think it's fair to say, as Nina suggested, that they go beyond what the commentaries say. As you'll be aware, both contradict the ancient commentaries at times and have both been considered very controversial in their comments. ... >Another interesting thing is that Mahasi Saydaw lists 3 of those, while Ledi Sayadaw lists 7. I'll make a short comparison list here as I understand it, so it's easier for others to compare: Mind-door processes following the sense-door process according to: Ledi Sayadaw Mahasi Sayadaw 1. Conformational process 1. First reflection 2. Grasping the object as a whole - 3. Recognising the colour - 4. Grasping the entity 4. Second reflection 5. Recognising the entity - 6. Grasping the name 6. Third reflection 7. Recognising the name - >I wonder if there are more detailed lists then these by other sayadaws or ancient commentators. ... S: The ancient commentaries say 'at least' the first mind-door process after the sense-door process takes the (nimitta) of the same paramattha dhamma. After this/these processes, the object of the succeeding mind-door processes is a concept and there are many of them. I think that's about all we can say. ... >C: I have found this two paragraphs in the Anattalakkhana Sutta by the Venerable Mahaasi Sayaadaw. > > I shall type it as below: > > As stated above, in the process of cognition through the eye door, the object is only the ultimate visible sight, not the conceptual form of a man or a woman. ... S: True ... >After running the complete process, the mind sinks down to the bhava.nga, which runs its course for some moments. ... S: Rather than saying 'sinks down to', I think it would be more accurate to say, "is succeeded by several bhavanga cittas" ... >Then the process of cognition through the mind door, manodvaaravithii, arises through REFLECTION on whatever has been seen. ... S: Perhaps we can just say that after the bhavanga cittas which succeeded the sense door process, a mind-door process follows, experiencing the same object experienced through the preceeding sense-door process. 'Reflection' can be mis-leading here. ... >Arising from bhava.nga, the mind door apprehending consciousness, manodvaaraavajjana, appears, followed by the javana process which runs for seven moments and the tadaalambana consciousness which lasts for two moments. ... S: Rather than 'arising from bhavanga', I think it's more accurate to say 'arising after the bhavanga cittas have fallen away, the manodvaaravajjana citta arises.....' ... >The whole course, therefore, runs for ten thought moments after which it sinks down to bhava.nga level again. ... S: I don't understand what this 'sinks down' means. ... >In this thought process, the (mental) object is just a REFLECTION on the sight that has been seen, it is not yet based on any wrong concept of previous experiences. ... S: Again, what does this REFLECTION mean? The object of the first mind-door process is the sense-object. It's not 'reflected on'. A concept is reflected on, surely? Even the succeeding mind-door processes are not necessarily 'based on any wrong concept of previous experiences'. It all depends on the kind of (javana) cittas which arise in any subsequent mind-door process as to whether there is any 'wrong concept'. (Does this mean wrong view or what?). is this how people get the idea that thinking or mind-door processes are bad and to be stopped, I wonder? .... > When the REFLECTIVE process of cognition takes place for the second time, it is the concept of form and appearance that have become its object -- the form and appearance of a man or a woman, say. ... S: As I said, as I recall the commentaries say 'at least' the first mind-door process after the sense-door process experiences the sense-object, so we cannot categorically say that the second mind-door process experiences the concept. ... >When the process is repeated for the third time, it is the concept of name (of man and woman) that has become the object. From then onwards, every time there is a REFLECTION on what has been experienced previously, the object is always simply a concept: "I see a man". "I see a woman". This is how consciousness plays conjuring tricks and substitutes concepts for realities. ... S: All we can say is that various concepts are experienced by these mind-door processes. I wouldn't say that consciousness does any 'substituting'. it is like a conjuring trick or an illusion because it's impermanent, anatta and cannot be held on to. This is true whatever the object is, whether it be concept or reality. It's on account of the ignorance and wrong view that the deception occurs. From the comy to the Phena Sutta in SN: "Consciousness is like a magical illusion (maayaa) in the sense that it is insubstantial and cannot be grasped. Consciousness is even more transient and fleeting than a magical illusion. For it gives the impression that a person comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind, but the mind is different in each of these activities. Consciousness deceives the multitude like a magical illusion.” Just my ideas.... Metta Sarah ======= #100923 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? nilovg Dear pt (and Sarah) Op 28-sep-2009, om 9:14 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > So, I guess in "Theravada conception" underlying tendencies are > kammically active, but I wonder in what sense in cases when they do > not lead to a full course of action? ----------- N: I would just like to add one point: The anusayas do not arise with the citta, but they are conditions for the arising of akusala citta. The anusayas are akusala qualities not yet eradicated. Nina. #100924 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] personal news and Dhamma. sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Lodewijk), --- On Thu, 24/9/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Sarah, we received a very nice letter from your mother in answer to a birthday wish we sent her. I hope we see her in Febr? She mentioned before, after a trip in Switzerland, that she finds it always so wonderful to be with you and Jon. She appreciates it so much. ... S: She mentioned she was very touched by your card for her 80th. I think she's glad all the celebrations are now over:-). Yes, we also appreciate her company. I think she's hoping to stay with us over Xmas here - we don't have a spare room, so Jon and I camp on the living room floor and of course, we have no Xmas festivities, but we all have fun - swimming, walking, eating simply... .. >Lodewijk's memoires: presentation is next week. He gave a radio interview and will be on T.V. , the program: good morning Holland. Guess how early he has to get up, like in India: 4-5-6. (wake up call at 4, breakfast at 5, departure at 6, it was often like that). ... S: Best wishes for the TV program and the 4-5-6! You and we are used to early starts, so I'm sure it'll be no problem. It's wonderful that he can incorporate the Dhamma into his memoirs and that the interviews touch on this aspect. Yes, anattaa is difficult for everyone - it all goes against the ways of the world. I'm sure he inspires many people with his approach and his thoughtful memoirs. Let us know how the TV interview goes. It reminds me of the ones you, Ann and Jon gave in India. We were given a copy of Jon's & Tom's in Lumbini, were you? Metta Sarah ======= #100925 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. jonoabb Hi Howard (100904) > When the Buddha spoke of jhana in the context of Right Concentration as a > factor of the Noble Eightfold Path he was referring to the momentary > concentration that accompanies the path-moment. > ---------------------------------------------- > You might add "I believe" to your statement, Jon. (I do not.) =============== I was stating what I understand to be the orthodox Theravada position. =============== > The quoted words are: 'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations > depends on the first jhana.' > > The question is then asked "In reference to what was it said?" > > What follows is thus an explanation of how the quoted words are to be > understood. > ------------------------------------------------ > Well, yes, but it is not referencing another teaching. =============== It simply means that the quoted words are to be understood in the way explained in the passage that follows (which might be different to what they are taken at first sight to mean). =============== > In this particular sutta there is no mention of insight *depending on* > jhana. > ----------------------------------------- > You are right. He talks directly of ending the fermentations. It is > said again & again & again throughout the sutta, Jon, that the ending of the > fermentations depends on jhana. =============== Yes, you are right. There is mention of the ending of fermentations *depending on* jhana. I was getting confused in my last post. But the meaning of that expression is then explained in further detail. In the case of a person who attains enlightenment based on jhana, the enlightenment depends on the jhana. =============== That uprooting of defilements is > accomplished by the sword of wisdom at a moment of awakening. But the piercing wisdom > which uproots defilements is conditioned by jhana. In this sutta the > Buddha describes a meditator engaged in jhana, then turning his mind towards > Dhamma, and staying with this, uprooting the defilements. =============== I agree that in the sutta insight/wisdom is preceded by jhana. And as you rightly say, it is the insight that uproots the defilements =============== The Buddha uses an > archer simile, likening jhana practice and application to the repeated > practice of an archer: =============== Well it's not clear to me that the archer's practice is likened to jhana. It could equally be that the incremental develoment of insight is the point. Jon =============== > "Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a straw > man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become able to shoot > long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce > great masses. In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & > remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, > accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there > that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & > consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an > affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his > mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the > property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite â€" the > resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending > of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' > "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. > Or, if not, then â€" through this very dhamma-passion, this very > dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters â€" he is > due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never > again to return from that world. > =============== #100926 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Dear pt, --- On Wed, 23/9/09, ptaus1 wrote: >> S: As I said, I think it's only a problem for those who would like the Buddha's own words about the first council after his death:-) >pt: :)) I have to admit I was among these people a few years back. Then, luckily, I read a few passages on abhidhamma, and suddenly the suttas started to make much more sense to me than before, so abhidhamma seemed perfectly all right and I don't bother about authenticity anymore. ... S: And I think that, like you, unless there is some understanding of namas and rupas, the realities of daily life, people will stick to their views about the authenticity. ... >But it seems like a great pity that many dismiss abhidhamma because of lack of historical evidence, so if that's what it takes to convince them to start reading abhidhamma, then I'd really like to find some historical evidence for them. ... S: My experience is that those who appreciate the teachings are about dhammas which are anatta and uncontrollable have no problem, but for those who reject this 'core point' no amount of historical evidence will convince them to read the Abhidhamma. Of cours, some (hi Alex!!)'play' both sides, depending on who they're talking to:-). .... > S: no one has ever suggested there were 'Pitakas' in the Buddha's time or at the first council. There was Dhamma-Vinaya. The commentaries explain how this equates with the Ti-pitaka. All the various accounts of the First Council (in Theravada sources) are in accordance on this. ... pt: >Interesting, because I thought that 3 pitakas were already arranged at the first council, and in fact that Sariputta was in charge of arranging all the teachings even during the Buddha's time. So when do you think pitakas were closed? I recall that Kathavatthu was closed at the third council, but I thought everything else was closed already at the first council, or am I wrong? .... Here's a quote by I.B.Horner, which I've given before, from her Preface to the commentary of the Buddhavamsa: "Through enemies and friends alike deleterious change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The commentaries are the armour and protection agains such an eventuality. As they hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true Dhamma, it is essential not only to understand them but to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they comment on it. They are as 'closed' now as is the Pali Canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to be contemplated, and no commentary written in later days could be included within it." ... >Anyway, from what I've read around different websites and here in UP I'd say that the classification of the teachings went through following phases historically: 1. Just Dhamma 2. Dhamma and Vinaya - from the time the Buddha set out the first Vinaya rule. 3. Nine-fold division - the Buddha is still alive at this time. 4. 5 nikayas - at the first council. 5. 3 pitakas - ? ... S: The term is used after the first council, I believe. See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/80213 ... >6) Sutta and Vinaya - I'm not sure about this one, because ,it appears in the suttas a few times, but I'm not sure how early/late it is during the Buddha's life. ... S: I'm not sure it matters.... People go on to reject those suttas they don't like or the Patisambhidamagga.... ... >Aside from the question when the pitaka classification occured historically, I'd also be interested to know whether Nikaya classification happened before the first council or not? >The vinaya quote I mentioned before does place it at the time of the first council for sure, but I wonder if it was in existence even before it. ... S: I forget (if I ever knew!). There's a book 'A history of Pali Literature' by Bimala Churn Law which I believe is on-line. I just opened the text, but couldn't tell from a quick look. Metta Sarah ======== #100927 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:36 pm Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! abhidhammika Dear Lukas, Jon, Sarah, Howard, Nina, Robert K, Freawaru, Chris F, Alex How have you been? Lukas wrote: "KS folks all develop silla, samadhi, panna. Nobody says dont train in siila, samadhi and panna." Really, Lukas? It is good to know that they develop siila, samatha and vipassanaa? The question is, do they develop them casually or formally? Superficially or deeply? Laxly or intensively? When you develop them for real liberation advantages to happen, you need to do so formally, deeply, and intensively. Lukas also wrote: "The point is that the samma-ditthi is first." What do you mean by the term 'samaa-di.t.thi'? 1. Did you mean the right view at the maggaņaa.na level? 2. Or, did you mean the right view before you get to the stage of maggaņaa.na? I do not think you meant that one must first have maggaņaa.na awakening before one can develop siila and samatha. So, you must have meant the right view at a puthujjana mundane level. The mundane right view belongs to what is known as learnt knowledge, sutamayaņaa.na. As such, the mundane right view can come in many forms and variations. For example, knowing properly how to avoid killing another person is one of the mundane right views. Moreover, the mundane right view should include skills in observation of the precepts. As the person is gaining more and more experiences and skills in the practice of observing the precepts, the practice of siila becomes mature, formal and established. As soon as this happens, the practice of observing precepts will become second nature to the practitioner. So, when you said: `The point is that the samma-ditthi is first' before you can practice siila, you must be saying that one must first go to a Theravada monk for the precepts to be dispensed to you. Well, Lukas, what do you agree with the conclusion I drew from what you wrote about the right view? Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #100928 From: "freawaru80" Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A not so short Hello freawaru80 Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: No problem with your English ;-) Thank you ;-) > Do you live in Germany? Yes. > S: I think you're already doing this and considering what the various terms, such as 'nama', 'rupa', 'vipassana' mean. Yes. But it looks like there is no agreement on what they mean. Different teachers seem to interprete them differently. :-( > S: I think it depends what is meant by 'pure observation'. Vipassana means insight or developed understanding of namas and rupas (mental and physical realities). Yes. It feels like pure observation. Recognition happens of course, too. But no judgement for example. One "sees" the thoughts, intentions, emotions, images, sensory informations and so on arising and falling within a closed space from an open space perspective. It is a bit (but only a bit) like reading the thoughts of a fictional character in a book. There is detachment from it all but one can also "see" it all. > S: Sati-sampajanna refers to the awareness and right understanding in the development of satipatthana or vipassana - again, the understanding of namas and rupas. This is not an 'observation' or 'labelling', but direct insight or understanding. As far as I understand Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw the practice of "labelling" is just to improve momentrary concentration so that the awareness can arise. Once this second mode has been established it is not necessary to think "walk" while walking or "write" when writing. The point is to establish enough free capacity to do two things at the same time and then use that free capacity to be aware of the other activity. Observation, seeing, witnessing - they all refer to insight. The impression is not completely different from "seeing" though I suspect this is just because sight is our (humans) main sense. If we were wolves we would probably call it "insmell" ;-) Tactile insight isn't "seeing" in the usual sense but, still, when it reaches a certain degree of strenght it is as if one sees the physical body inside and outside. > However, we have to hear and consider a lot about what appears in order for such understanding to develop. I do not know what you mean here. Could you please explain. Freawaru #100929 From: "freawaru80" Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:47 pm Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! freawaru80 Dear Suan Lu Zaw, Thank you for the translation :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > "The point is that the samma-ditthi is first." > > What do you mean by the term 'samaa-di.t.thi'? > > 1. Did you mean the right view at the maggaņaa.na level? > > 2. Or, did you mean the right view before you get to the stage of maggaņaa.na? > > I do not think you meant that one must first have maggaņaa.na awakening before one can develop siila and samatha. Sorry for asking what is probably well known to everybody - but could you please shortly explain the difference. I know nearly nothing of Pali... > So, you must have meant the right view at a puthujjana mundane level. > > The mundane right view belongs to what is known as learnt knowledge, sutamayaņaa.na. I have been wondering about the differences between wrong view, mundane right view and supermundane right view. It seems like most consider right view as something to be learned intellectually. But in the suttas (mundane) right view seems to be linked to the (mundane) iddhis. For example the belief in appearance and disappearance of beings in the lokas is called mundane right view. But it is also an iddhi called "heavenly eye". Also, deva usually have mundane right view and it is the rebirth after intense jhana experiences. So is "mundane right view" really something learned from others or does it refer to the perspective of someone in whom an (mundane) iddhi works or who is in jhana? (After all, during jhana there is a switch of perspective that might refer to a change of view). Freawaru #100930 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta nilovg Dear pt, Op 27-sep-2009, om 7:45 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > A further question on sankhara nimitta: all 5 khandas work at the > same time at any given moment of citta, -------- N; all five khandhas arise in the planes where there are nama and rupa. ------- > pt: however, only a nimitta of one khanda can be the object of > cittas in the first mind-door process that follows the sense-door > process. So, I'm trying to understand how does that particular > khanda nimitta happen, and not the other 4? ------- N: Because each citta experiences only one object at a time. Nobody can control which particular object, all realities are anattaa. > > Let's take an example of a visual object - when the eye sense-door > process happens, the object of cittas in that process is color in > the rupa kalapa. > > 1. Once the sense-door process has finished - the first mind-door > process of cittas to follow has (shankara) nimitta of color as the > object, right? -------- N: yes. --------- > > pt: 2. Sankhara nimitta of colour is nimitta of which khanda? Rupa > or sanna? -------- Colour or visible object is rupa. It is rupakkhandha. --------- > > pt: 3. That nimitta is classified as which of the 6 possible mental > objects (sensitive matter, subtle matter, citta, cetasika, pannatti > and nibbana)? -------- N: Colour is one of the eight inseparable ruupas arising together in a group. It always arises with the four great Elements. I would not say the nimitta is classified, the rupa is classified. Nimitta is merely the mode a reality appears but we do not have to think of it all the time. ------- Nina. #100931 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Dear freawaru, Op 27-sep-2009, om 19:55 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > I wouldn't say the suttas are written in "everyday language" but > yes, this might be possible. When investigating new frontiers (such > as the mind on a high time resolution as in Abhidhamma) new terms > are required :) ------ N: The Buddha adapted his way of explaining to the audiance. We find also very detailed classifications in the suttas. ------- > > F: But why did the Buddha choose to use and alter the meaning of > the terms of His own suttas? After all, samadhi does not even mean > "concentration". ------ N: It does not matter whether you use the word concentration or one- pointedness, but it is useful to know that this one cetasika has endless variations, as to intensity, levels, object, etc. It can be of another plane of citta such as the plane of jhaanacitta or lokuttara, experiencing nibbaana. -------- > > N: > It seems that concentration can last, but in reality it arises > and > > falls away. Wholesome samaadhi is developed in samatha and it can > > reach the stage of jhaana, but even then it arises and falls away. > > F: What exactly do you mean by samatha? I know the general > Theravadan definition based on jhana (and the Tibetan one: zhine) > but I don't know if you use another definition here, too, as in the > case of samadhi. ------ N: Samatha: the development of tranquillity that can reach the state of jhaana, absorption. Then concentration is highly developed. It seems a reality different from the bare one-pointedness as we find even when seeing or hearing, but it is the same cetasika. Different levels of development. --------- > F: Yes, the translation of citta as "mind" or "consciousness" is > quite misleading. > > If I understand you correctly in Abhidhamma terminology "citta" is > that what experiences. But there are two very different "modes", > one is experiencing and the other is observing. What is the > Abhidhammic name of that what observes. It cannot be citta as it is > not experiencing. ------- N: Sarah explained about observing. Citta experiences an object. We can also say: it cognizes an object. You use the term observing, but it is still citta cognizing an object, no matter what word you prefer. ------- > F: Okay, so much is clear. It describes how work and experience is > constructed. But I think one also needs to discern here between > doing/working and experiencing. When the brain doesn't work > properly the person's body and mind (not in the sense of citta) > does something (like walking, recognizing form, etc) but the > experience of it (citta) does not arise or is separated from it as > it happens in several disorders. So not always does citta (that > what experiences) accompany the jhana conditions. How is this > described in the Abhidhamma, what differs between those two: > "normal" and "disorder"? ------- N: It is hard to answer this as you describe situations, such as normal and disorder. The Abhidhamma describes moments, moments of citta. Everything is momentary. In reality there are in our life only citta, cetasika and rupa and these are momentary. Nama and rupa, nothing else. All the rest, world, people, situation, working, are concepts different from ultimate realities. Concepts are objects of thinking but they are not realities. Visible object can be directly experienced, without having to think about it or to name it, person or car cannot be directly experienced, these are mind-constructs. -------- > > F: I fear I still find it hard to accept the naming. Why call them > "jhana conditions"? I mean how do they relate to jhana in the > sutric sense? How do they, say, resemble the conditions for the > fifth jhana ? ------- N: They condition other realities, namas that arise together with them by way of jhaana-condition. Even when taking a step. Causing the citta to be 'firmly fixed' on an object. But they also assist the citta that develops tranquillity to reach the state of jhaana. Many levels again. The sutta does not give as many details as the Abhidhamma. But there is no contradiction. Nina. #100932 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Feelings. nilovg Dear Freawaru, Op 25-sep-2009, om 13:12 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > When you speak of feeling (vedana) do you refer to the feeling that > arises as part of the personality patterns or do you refer to the > impersonal feelings, to those that arise (and are either enhanced > or filtered) before contacting the personality? ------ N: personality pattern, again a concept that is not used in the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma outlook is different. It is very precise and, as said, concerns momentary realities. Here is a sutta with Abhidhamma and there are many of them. Kindred Sayings IV, Kindred Sayings about Feelings, One hundred and eight. Yes, they can be classified as one hundred and eight. S IV, 231. The sutta explains about two kinds of feelings, bodily and mental. Then three, five, six, eighteen, thirtysix, one hundred and eight. (No time to type out the sutta) They all are impermanent, arise just for amoment and fall away. They are the cetasika that is feeling, but see how many varieties. It is sometimes translated as sensation or emotion, but here again we have to be carefull lest we confuse it with a concept of feeling. It is hard to understand the reality of feeling, but we should take account of the citta it accompanies. Then we shall discover that it is quite different from sensation in conventional sense. Quite different from the way we thought about it before. The Abhidhamma is very precise. > > N: > The development of insight is not observing, there may still > be an > > idea of self who observes, even when it seems to arise on its own. > > The right conditions for insight are listening, discussing, > > intellectual understanding > > F: I do not understand this. Most people are very much identified > with their idea of self when listening, discussing and intellectual > understanding. How should this lead to insight? ------- > N: You are quite right. But when we have more understanding of the > difference between concepts and ultimate realities we shall > understand that the self is an illusion. Then we are on the right > way. There are conditions for beginning to develop the Path, but it > takes aeons. -------- Nina. > #100933 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:33 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (56) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ The "Visuddhimagga" (XVIII, 31) uses a simile of a marionette in order to illustrate that there is no human being in the ultimate sense, only conditioned phenomena. We read: "Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the Ancients said: 'The mental and material are really here, 'But here there is no human being to be found, 'For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll 'Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks." When one sees a performance with marionettes, it seems that the puppets have lives of their own: they exert themselves, they are absorbed, attached or full of hatred and sorrow, and one can laugh and cry because of the story that is being enacted. However, the puppets are only wood and strings, held by men who make them act. When one sees how the puppets are stored after the play they are not impressive anymore, only pieces of wood and strings. When we study the Abhidhamma it helps us to understand more that this marionette we call "self" can move about, act and speak because of the appropriate conditions. ------------------------------ Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech to be continued. with metta, Han #100934 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:07 am Subject: Re: Sex. . . rjkjp1 -- Dear Venerable This is very good to know:) Much appreciated. with respect Robert - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dhammanando_bhikkhu" wrote: > > Hi Rob, > ? > > I would say not. The mere fact that a woman's parents are still alive doesn't in itself make her maaturakkhita or piturakkhita, not even if she still resides with them. I can't quote the relevant passage for you as I'm away from my library, but the Vinaya commentary's definition of "woman protected by her mother [father, brother …. etc.]" describes an arrangement in which the woman is living in absolute subjection to the control of her protectors. She is kept indoors, prohibited from seeing men or being seen by men, is forbidden to go anywhere, and is obliged to follow her protector's every wish. In other words, we're talking about the purdah-like arrangement found in traditional Muslim societies and formerly in India among the brahmins. I don't think this would quite fit Junko's case. :) > > > Does it all change if we get married? > > By the Vinaya commentary's criteria you are already married. Junko would be classed as a chandavaasinii, the second of the ten kinds of wife. > > Best wishes, > Dhammanando > #100935 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:20 pm Subject: The 11 Advantages! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The 11 Advantages of Infinite Friendliness: When one cultivates regular meditation on Infinite Friendliness (Mett a), then these 11 advantages are produced, can be expected and observed: 1: One sleeps in comfort. 2: One wakes in comfort. 3: One dreams no evil dreams. 4: One is dear to human beings. 5: One is dear to non-human beings. 6: Deities guard and protect one. 7: Fire, poison and weapons cannot affect one. 8: One's mind is easily concentrated. 9: The expression of one's face is serene. 10: One dies unconfused and without panic. 11: If one penetrates no higher, then one is reborn in the Brahma-world. These 11 advantages emerges and hold insofar as goodwill is maintained! Vism I 312-314, AN V 342 RADIATING PEACE The Noble Friend, who dwells in friendly good-will, Who has faith in the Teaching of the Buddhas, Will reach the place of Peace, the mode of ease, The stilling of all formation, The calming of all construction, Purest Happiness itself ... Dhammapada Illustration 368 Background Story 368-376 <....> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #100936 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:45 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One, and he saw beings with different dispositions, some of whom were not capable to accept his teaching, and some who were capable to be taught. We read that the Buddha used a simile of different kinds of lotuses in a pond: …Even as in a pond of blue lotuses or in a pond of red lotuses or in a pond of white lotuses, a few red and blue and white lotuses are born in the water, grow in the water, do not rise above the water but thrive while altogether immersed; a few blue or red or white lotuses are born in the water, grow in the water and reach the surface of the water; a few blue or red or white lotuses are born in the water, grow in the water, and stand rising out of the water, undefiled by the water; even so did I, monks, surveying the world with the eye of an Awakened One, see beings with little dust in their eyes, with much dust in their eyes, with acute faculties, with dull faculties, of good dispositions, of bad dispositions, docile, indocile, few seeing fear in sins and the world beyond. Out of compassion the Buddha decided to teach Dhamma. His teaching goes “against the stream”, it is deep and it can only be understood by studying it thoroughly and by carefully considering it. Generally, people expect something else from the Buddhist teachings. They believe that the Buddha taught a method of meditation to reach tranquillity, or even extraordinary experiences such as a mystical trance. It is understandable that one looks for a way of escape from a life full of tension and troubles. Extraordinary experiences, however, cannot give the real solution to one’s problems. It is a wrong conception of Buddhism to think that the goal of the Buddha’s Path are mystical experiences to be reached by concentration. The Buddha’s Path has nothing to do with unworldly mysticism, it is very concrete and matter of fact. Understanding should be developed of all that is real, also of our faults and vices as they naturally appear during our daily activities. We have to know ourselves when we laugh, when we cry, when we are greedy or angry, we have to know all our different moods. All troubles in life are caused by our defilements. It is through the development of understanding that defilements can be completely eradicated. Comprehending, knowing and seeing are stressed time and again in the Buddhist teachings. ******* Nina. #100937 From: "freawaru80" Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 5. freawaru80 Dear Nina, I agree that the Buddha's Dhamma is not about escapism. That it should include dayly life (including emotions). But I don't see how you come to the conclusion that meditation and mystical experiences and experiences based on concentration are not part of the Buddha's Dhamma too. After all he describes his own Awakening based on them. The Buddha Himself did not refine Himself to a library and memoriezed scriptures. He meditated (among other things). Especially the jhanas (the meditative absorbtions, not the jhana factors of Abhidhamma) were used and praised as usefull for Liberation. Consider the Maha-Saccaka Sutta: The Longer Discourse to Saccaka (translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, quotes from accesstoinsight.org). In it the Blessed One describes how he reached Awakening Himself. Before Awakening He went to two teachers who taught him jhana (not Abhidhamma but meditative experience). It didn't satisfy him to be a master of jhana, though, but still he was a master. Then he practiced several other meditative absorbtion such as the trance of non-breathing. He had already develloped "unmuddled mindfullness" by this time (and I doubt that this can be achieved by anything else but meditation). The important point of this experience, though, is IMO this: "But the painful feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain." Some time later he again used his mastery of the jhanas (in the meditative sense) to use iddhis (such as the recollection of his own manifold lifes) and again ""This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain." And so on: he used the iddhis that arise from concentration practice until finally: "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress..." During jhana (the meditative absorbtion) he Liberated ""This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain." And furthermore that, what is past jhana (the meditative absorbtion, not the jhana factors of Abhidhamma) is described as His "dwelling":"I recall having taught the Dhamma to an assembly of many hundreds, and yet each one of them assumes of me, 'Gotama the contemplative is teaching the Dhamma attacking just me,' but it shouldn't be seen in that way. The Tathagata rightly teaches them the Dhamma simply for the purpose of giving knowledge. At the end of that very talk I steady the mind inwardly, settle it, concentrate it, and unify it in the same theme of concentration as before, in which I almost constantly dwell." Seriously, can one get more mystical than that? He describes His own extraordinary experiences reached by concentration as the Path to Awakening. After a life full of mystical experiences and meditative absorbtions. And he goes on teaching this as His Dhamma: practice jhana, become a master (just as Himself), direct your mind to the various knowledges that can be accessed in such a state. And stay detached so that the "feelings that arise in this way do not invade the mind or remain." Freawaru #100938 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? jonoabb Hi pt You raise some interesting questions. Hope you don't mind if I butt in ;-)) (100877) > I'm not sure that any kamma patha applies to the actor on the stage (or a person telling a joke)? Maybe false speech? But then, the audience is aware that it is a play/joke, not a dhamma talk for example, so I’m not sure if false speech applies in this situation? > =============== I don't know the answer, but I've always assumed it had something to do with inducing the listener to 'lose' themselves in the story being presented. =============== > Further, in terms of the other arts, it's even less likely that kamma patha happens - let's take an example of a musician - I can't think of a single kamma patha that would apply in case of the musician performing a musical piece. Can you? =============== Well, I can see some possible parallels with the vocal artist, in terms of what I just mentioned. Jon #100939 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. jonoabb Hi Howard I meant to comment on another part of this post of yours. (100904) > Insight, in the Dhamma sense, usually refers to the direct understanding > of a presently arising dhamma, whereas the kind of useful thinking that may > condition deeper calm can be experienced by persons who have never heard > the teachings. > ----------------------------------------------- > Intellectual right understanding is a primitive "touch" of insight, > IMO. It is an important beginning, and it can calm the mind. Full fledged > wisdom can uproot defilements and create pristine equanimity, a calm/peace > that "goes beyond". > =============== You originally mentioned useful thinking (as conditioning calm); now you mention intellectual right understanding. To me these are different kinds of consciousness. The former does not necessarily connote an understanding of the teachings, and could be kusala or akusala, while the latter is necessarily referring to kusala consciousness only and can only arise from having heard the teachings. But in terms of your original statement to the effect that calm requires insight, I still don't quite catch your meaning. (No need to reply unless you think further discussion could be useful.) Jon #100940 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) jonoabb Hi MikeNZ (100899) > I'm still somewhat interested in the point I brought up in my first post. It appears that most of the details about mind-moments (17 mind moments, etc)is Commentarial. It's in the VM and the AS, but not in the Canonical volumes as far as I can see (and as posted by a several people here). I don't say this to necessarily dismiss the ideas (there is a lot of great stuff in Commentary), but I think it is useful to know where the ideas come from. It is particularly helpful to know when talking to those who don't see the Abhidhamma as the word of the Buddha (because in fact what they are saying is not - such as the 17 mind moments - isn't claimed to have been spoken directly by the Buddha if I've understood things correctly). > =============== As I understand it, commentary material and the like that forms part of the Pali canon of the Theravada school is considered "Buddha word" in the sense that it's fully consistent with and true to the original spoken teaching. So elaborations such as the sense- and mind-door processes are not considered to be just someone's idea ;-)) Jon #100941 From: Geri geri Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sex. . . sac9090 Dear Venerable, I would like to ask if a husband allows his wife to have sex with another man (even bodhisattas give their wives and children to whoever asks it fromhim, right?) will the other man be committing illicit sex by having sex with the husband's wife? Please state sutta sources for the answer. JC #100942 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:31 am Subject: Re: 3 Sikkhaa (trainings), Suan (1). Was: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! jonoabb Hi Scott Many thanks for this. Enjoyed reading it. > Scott: Visuddhimagga I (as a bit of a clarification as to what it is that 'sikkhaa' is in relation to as far as siila goes): > > "...What is virtue? It is the states beginning with volition present in one who abstains from killing living things, etc.; or in one who fulfils the practice of duties. For this is said in the Pa.tisambhidaa: 'What is virtue? There is , virtue as consciousness-concomitant, virtue as restraint, virtue as non-transgression' (Ps.1.44)...In what sense is it virtue? It is virtue (siila) in the sense of composing (siilana). What is this composing? It is either a coordinating (samaadhaana), meaning non-inconsistency of bodily action, etc., due to virtuousness; or it is an upholding (upadhaara.na), meaning a state of basis (aadhaara) owing to its serving as foundation for profitable states...Now what are its characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause? Here: > > The characteristic of it is composing > Even when analysed in various ways. > As visibility is of visible data > Even when analysed in various ways. > =============== Any thoughts on composing ("coordinating of bodily action")? Jon #100943 From: Geri geri Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 11 Advantages! sac9090 To All: First of all, I would like to ask how to start a new topic in DSG. It doesn't seem to accept a new topic. Second, I have this question. The Buddha said that the establishment of the order of nuns will shorten the lifespan of the Dhamma by 500 years. Is He meaning this to be the path to arahetship? The Dhamma is 2500 years old now, so if its not the path to arahatship, what is the Buddha referring to that will last only 500 years? And if it is the path to arahatship He is referring to, didn't the texts say that it will last for 1000 years? 1000 years later anagami hood will disappear, 1000 more the sakadagami hood, 1000 still the path to stream-entry? \ JC #100944 From: "Mike" Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) mikenz66 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" > Jon: As I understand it, commentary material and the like that forms part of the Pali canon of the Theravada school is considered "Buddha word" in the sense that it's fully consistent with and true to the original spoken teaching. MikeNZ: Yes, I understand that. Though of course, as you imply, the tradition says that where ancient commentary contradicts the canonical vinaya/sutta/abhidhamma then it should be rejected. And where newer writings, such as the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, or modern teachers, contradict ancient commentary or vinaya/sutta/abhidhamma they should be rejected. So it is important to know which layer we are talking about. It's clear the style of later work (such as Commentary or the Visuddhimagga) is quite different from the Canon, so it would be extremely confusing to tell people that it is words that the Buddha actually spoke (except for actual quotes). And of course Venerable Buddhaghosa is quite clear about this. And so should we be. Mike #100945 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:34 am Subject: Anusayas hantun1 Dear Nina, In message 100923, on the subject: Does weight of kamma depend on others?, you wrote: "I would just like to add one point: The anusayas do not arise with the citta, but they are *conditions* for the arising of akusala citta. The anusayas are akusala qualities not yet eradicated." It was a very important clarification. I thank you very much. Normally, I would take it that the anusaya arises when the conditions are there. Your clarification is also the same as what Ven Nyanatiloka wrote in his Buddhist Dictionary: "These things are called 'proclivities' since, in consequence of their pertinacity, they ever and again tend to become the *conditions* for the arising of ever new sensuous greed, etc.'' (Vis.M. XXII, 60). -------------------- After reading your comments, I was interested in anusayas and I began reading more about anusayas. In MN 44, Cuu.lavedalla Sutta, translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi, I read the following paragraph: 26. Lady, does the underlying tendency to lust underlie all pleasant feeling? Does the underlying tendency to aversion underlie all painful feeling? Does the underlying tendency to ignorance underlie all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling? Friend Visaakha, the underlying tendency to lust does not underlie all pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to aversion does not underlie all painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance does not underlie all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. Han: Can you kindly elaborate on this, for example, what sort of pleasant feeling, which the underlying tendency to lust does not underlie?, and so on. Similarly, I read paragraph 28: 28. Lady, does the underlying tendency to lust have to be abandoned in regard to all pleasant feeling? Does the underlying tendency to aversion have to be abandoned in regard to all painful feeling? Does the underlying tendency to ignorance have to be abandoned in regard to all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling? Friend Visaakha, the underlying tendency to lust does not have to be abandoned in regard to all pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to aversion does not have to be abandoned in regard to all painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance does not have to be abandoned in regard to all neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. Han: What kind of underlying tendency to lust that does not have to be abandoned?, and so on. Thank you very much, Respectfully, Han #100946 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:21 am Subject: Re: 3 Sikkhaa (trainings). scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Regarding: "...It is virtue (siila) in the sense of composing (siilana). What is this composing? It is either a coordinating (samaadhaana), meaning non-inconsistency of bodily action, etc., due to virtuousness..." J: "Any thoughts on composing ('coordinating of bodily action')?" Scott: I think (and I'll be wrong because I don't like my own opinions) it relates to samaadhi - concentration - which, as it functions in the moment, holds the various states to an object; but in relation to 'bodily action' would refer to a process whereby, over many, many moments, siila (i.e. its constituents) arise and fall away holding, coordinating, and conditioning the many arisings and fallings away of ruupa known conventionally as virtuous bodily action. PTS PED: "Samaadhaana (nt.) [sa.m+aa+dhaa] putting together, fixing; concentration Vism 84..." Visuddhimagga III: "...It is concentration (samaadhi) in the sense of concentrating (sammaadhaana). What is this concentrating? It is the centering (aadhaana) of consciousness and consciousness-concomitants evenly (sama.m) and rightly (samma) on a single object; placing is what is meant..." Scott: Does samaadhaana (composing) then refer to the ongoing function of one-pointedness, from moment-to-moment, in concert with the other concomitants of 'virtuous bodily action?' I think so and thus hang myself out to dry... Corrections welcome, Jon. Sincerely, Scott. #100947 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:27 am Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! szmicio Dear Suan, >Su: The question is, do they develop them casually or formally? Superficially or deeply? Laxly or intensively? L: It depends on conditions. 'formal'. formally? can u walk formally? Best wishes Lukas #100948 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > MikeNZ: Yes, I understand that. Though of course, as you imply, the tradition says that where ancient commentary contradicts the canonical vinaya/sutta/abhidhamma then it should be rejected. > Mike > Dear Mike Perhaps if you could list these places where the Commentaries contradicts the canon we could discuss these. robert #100949 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anusayas nilovg Dear Han, very good questions. The answers are in the anusaya yamaka which I studied, though not to the end. I studied it together with the Thai translation. I will look up the texts, but that has to be in the course of next week only. Nina. Op 29-sep-2009, om 12:34 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: Can you kindly elaborate on this, for example, what sort of > pleasant feeling, which the underlying tendency to lust does not > underlie?, and so on. #100950 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 5. nilovg Dear Freawaru, Op 29-sep-2009, om 11:03 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > N: They > > believe that the Buddha taught a method of meditation to reach > > tranquillity, or even extraordinary experiences such as a mystical > > trance. .... It is a wrong conception of Buddhism to think that > the goal of the Buddha's > > Path are mystical experiences to be reached by concentration. The > > Buddha's Path has nothing to do with unworldly mysticism, it is very > > concrete and matter of fact. Understanding should be developed of > all > > that is real, also of our faults and vices as they naturally appear > > during our daily activities. ... -------- > pt:I agree that the Buddha's Dhamma is not about escapism. That it > should include daily life (including emotions). > > But I don't see how you come to the conclusion that meditation and > mystical experiences and experiences based on concentration are not > part of the Buddha's Dhamma too. After all he describes his own > Awakening based on them. -------- N: I speak about trance, mystical experiences, and take note of this: about unworldly mysticism. This is not the same as true, genuine jhaana. I do not deny that true jhaana is a high degree of kusala and that the Buddha was incomparable in his achievement of jhaana and supranatural powers, iddhi, and in his wisdom. The jhaanafactors which are sobhana are described in the sutta and also in the Abhidhamma, no contradictions. Perhaps you still find it difficult that there can be also akusala jhaanafactors. There are also akusala Pathfactors, the wrong path as described in the suttas. What I merely described in the passage above: some people have wrong expectations about Buddhism. They do not see that the goal of jhaana is not: exciting experiences, but detachment, detachment from sense objects. My Ch 7 deals with mental development and meditation which is kusala. It is another question, much discussed already, whether we today can imitate the Buddha. For this, see archives and U.P. Nina. #100951 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/29/2009 5:24:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard I meant to comment on another part of this post of yours. (100904) > Insight, in the Dhamma sense, usually refers to the direct understanding > of a presently arising dhamma, whereas the kind of useful thinking that may > condition deeper calm can be experienced by persons who have never heard > the teachings. > ----------------------------------------------- > Intellectual right understanding is a primitive "touch" of insight, > IMO. It is an important beginning, and it can calm the mind. Full fledged > wisdom can uproot defilements and create pristine equanimity, a calm/peace > that "goes beyond". > =============== You originally mentioned useful thinking (as conditioning calm); now you mention intellectual right understanding. To me these are different kinds of consciousness. The former does not necessarily connote an understanding of the teachings, and could be kusala or akusala, while the latter is necessarily referring to kusala consciousness only and can only arise from having heard the teachings. But in terms of your original statement to the effect that calm requires insight, I still don't quite catch your meaning. (No need to reply unless you think further discussion could be useful.) ------------------------------------- All that I'll add is a bit of a correction/clarification to my overly succinct statement: Not all calm requires insight. You are clearly correct in that. (Someone given a tranquilizer, for example, will be quite calm!!)What I have in mind is the sort of wholesome calm that conduces to further insight, a calm that supports clarity of mind and the higher stages of which constitute equanimity. ====================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100952 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/29/2009 5:26:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: As I understand it, commentary material and the like that forms part of the Pali canon of the Theravada school is considered "Buddha word" in the sense that it's fully consistent with and true to the original spoken teaching. ---------------------------------------------- Commentarial material is considered by many to be proper explication of Buddha word, but no way is it considered Buddha word. That expression points explicitly to what is understood to be the direct teaching from the mouth of the Buddha. ------------------------------------------------ So elaborations such as the sense- and mind-door processes are not considered to be just someone's idea ;-)) Jon ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100953 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anusayas hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. Please take your own time. No hurry, please. Respectfully, Han #100954 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:21 pm Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! abhidhammika Dear Lukas, Freawaru, Jon, Sarah, Howard, Nina, Robert K, Chris F, Alex How have you been? Lukas wrote in reply to my question: "The question is, do they (KS folks) develop them casually or formally? Superficially or deeply? Laxly or intensively?" L: It depends on conditions. 'formal'. formally? Thanks, Lukas. I wonder if you could give me examples of the conditions on which you would develop siila, samatha and vipassanaa formally as well as the conditions on which you would casually. Lukas also asked: "can u walk formally?" The Buddha said 'Yes'. Please see the following: 375. "Puna caparam, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vaa `gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati,..." 375. 'Again, as another method (of Bodywise Recollection), the monk knows while walking',... Section 375, Iriyaapathapabbam, Kaayaanupassanaa, Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam Mahaavaggo, Diighnikaayo. If you practice walking formally as the Buddha instructed, you will notice that you need to slow down the walking pace. Lukas, please do not forget my questions regarding the Right View in my original reply to you. For your convenience, I qouted them below. _________________________________ Lukas also wrote: "The point is that the samma-ditthi is first." What do you mean by the term 'samaa-di.t.thi'? 1. Did you mean the right view at the maggaņaa.na level? 2. Or, did you mean the right view before you get to the stage of maggaņaa.na? <><> So, when you said: `The point is that the samma-ditthi is first' before you can practice siila, you must be saying that one must first go to a Theravada monk for the precepts to be dispensed to you. Well, Lukas, do you agree with the conclusion I drew from what you wrote about the right view? _____________________________________ Please do not forget that Freawaru is also waiting to read the diferences between the supramundane Right View and the mundane right View. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org PS- When you develop siila, samatha and vipassanaa for real liberation advantages to happen, you need to do so formally, deeply, and intensively. #100955 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:04 pm Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! scottduncan2 Dear Suan, Regarding: S: "I wonder if you could give me examples of the conditions on which you would develop siila, samatha and vipassanaa formally as well as the conditions on which you would casually...If you practice walking formally as the Buddha instructed, you will notice that you need to slow down the walking pace..." Scott: Could you please give the word or phrase in Paa.li which you translate as 'formal' and 'formally?' Otherwise, this will stand as only an idiosyncratic, however popular, translatory opinion. Thanks for you kind and scholarly consideration. Sincerely, Scott. #100956 From: "Mike" Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) mikenz66 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > MikeNZ: Yes, I understand that. Though of course, as you imply, the tradition says that where ancient commentary contradicts the canonical vinaya/sutta/abhidhamma then it should be rejected. > Mike > > > robert: Perhaps if you could list these places where the Commentaries contradicts the canon we could discuss these. Perhaps I gave the wrong impression. My point was not to criticise the Commentaries. My point was merely that I believe it to be helpful to be clear about what one is reading because the different layers have different styles and purposes/uses. For example, commentary tends to be more conversational and exhaustive, so it's a different sort of reading experience from the tipitika, which tends to be brief, dense summaries that have to be "digested" in a different way. Mike #100957 From: "colette" Date: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. ksheri3 the condition of DREAM STATE as being a consciousness which can be recalled? Isn't that the state of YOGA NIDRA? A fourth consciousness outside the levels of consciousness as depicted in the Western psychology: Beta, alpha, theta, delta? Yoga Nidra is outside these states, levels of electrical brain wave functioning. You may also care to look into DZOGCHEN but that's a Mahayana practice outside, external to, the Theravadan practice. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi freawaru80, > > Savasana, my spelling and recall is A MISS <....> #100958 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:05 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, It is felt by some people that, in order to develop understanding of one’s mind, one should retire from daily life and sit still in quiet surroundings. It may seem that, when one is in isolation, there is no anger or aversion and that it is easier to analyse one’s mental states. However, at such moments there is bound to be clinging to quietness and when there is clinging there is no development of understanding. We read in the scriptures about people who could develop calm in concentrating on a meditation subject. They were very skilled, they knew the right method to attain calm, which is a wholesome mental state. However, through the development of calm defilements are not eradicated, they are merely temporarily suppressed. The Buddha taught the way to develop the understanding leading to the complete and final eradication of all that is impure, of all defilements. In order to reach the goal there is no other way but developing understanding naturally in one’s daily life. It cannot be expected that there will be the eradication of defilements soon since they are so deeply rooted. The Buddha had, during countless lives when he was still a Bodhisatta, developed understanding of all phenomena of life. Only in his last life, at the moment he attained enlightenment, all defilements were eradicated. How could we expect to reach the final goal within a short time? The Buddha taught the way to the eradication of all defilements. Defilements are not eradicated by rituals or by sacraments. The way to eradicate them is an inner way, namely the understanding of all mental and physical phenomena of one’s life. The Buddha taught very precisely what defilements are. They are not exactly the same as what is generally meant by “sin”. By sin is usually meant an evil deed, evil speech or evil thought which has a high degree of impurity. According to the Buddhist teachings defilements include all degrees, even slight degrees, of what is impure. Even slight degrees of defilements are unhelpful, not beneficial. The term “unwholesomeness”, that which is unhelpful, not beneficial, includes all degrees of defilements. If one thinks in terms of sin one will not understand that ignorance of the phenomena of life is unwholesome, that ignorance is harmful since it blinds one to see the truth. Or one will not understand that even a slight degree of attachment is unwholesome, even harmful, because it is accumulated and it will arise again and again. ****** Nina. #100959 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. > S: I forget (if I ever knew!). There's a book 'A history of Pali Literature' by Bimala Churn Law which I believe is on-line. I just opened the text, but couldn't tell from a quick look. For those interested, the online address for the book is: Vol 1: http://www.archive.org/details/historyofpalilit035453mbp Vol 2: http://www.archive.org/details/ahistoryofpalili035454mbp Best wishes pt #100960 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? ptaus1 Hi Jon, Jon: > You raise some interesting questions. Hope you don't mind if I butt in ;-)) pt: Always good to hear from you. old pt: > > I'm not sure that any kamma patha applies to the actor on the stage (or a person telling a joke)? Maybe false speech? But then, the audience is aware that it is a play/joke, not a dhamma talk for example, so I’m not sure if false speech applies in this situation? Jon: > I don't know the answer, but I've always assumed it had something to do with inducing the listener to 'lose' themselves in the story being presented. pt: Yes, I was considering this aspect for a while, and I don't think I can agree with you at the moment. My reasoning is based on the premise that "inducing the listener to 'lose' themselves in the story being presented" equals to inducing greed, hate and delusion kilesas of the level of pariyutthana in others. So, I pose the question - is there anything that doesn't "induce" greed, hate and delusion of the pariyutthana level in those who are not devoid of greed, hate and delusion to begin with? For example, if I'm a grocer, then the price and quality of my goods will definitely induce greed and hate in others. And if I discount some of my goods for a week, it will induce greed galore in my customers, regardless of whether my motivation to provide the discount was akusala or kusala. So, I'd say that pretty much any kind of trading (in goods or services) has the capacity to induce greed, hate and delusion. Or, let's say I'm providing a service for free, like fixing someone's washing machine - people will still react with different levels of greed/hate in response to my work, regardless of whether I'm doing it with kusala or akusala intention to begin with. Further, even such non-existent things as the weather for example tend to induce tons of greed and hate in people every day. And lastly, even dhamma talks can induce greed/hate in listeners of different capacities and/or backgrounds. So, at the moment, I can't agree that kilesas of the level of pariyutthana that arise in other people in response to my words and actions are somehow my kammic responsibility. But I'm still going through UP on kilesas and anusaya, so please point out if I'm wrong somewhere. In particular, I'm wondering what if my words and deeds somehow induce greed, hate and delusion in others of the level of vitikkama, i.e. they go on to commit an akusala kamma patha, as in when encouraging (but not ordering) others to kill, steal, etc? And how does this apply to arts - in the example of a benign musician, is there any akusala kamma patha that s/he's encouraging in others? Let's say s/he's just an instrumentalist - then I can't see any kamma patha that he's encouraging in others. But, if s/he's a singer, then it definitely becomes possible to encourage others to do all sorts of things through words. But still, is encouraging kamma pathas equal to committing kamma pathas? So, there are several levels that are now open for consideration (focussing on the extreme case of killing here): - is the kamma of personally committing a killing equal to kamma of ordering others to kill? - is the kamma of ordering a killing equal to kamma of encouraging others to kill? - is the kamma of encouraging others to kill equal when the encouraged person kills compared to the case when he doesn't kill? etc Best wishes pt #100961 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:36 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (41-47) , and commentary, part 2. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 41: Walshe DN 33.1.11(41) 'Four un-Ariyan modes of speech: lying, slander, abuse, idle gossip. (Cattaaro anariyavohaaraa: musaavaado, pisu.naavaacaa, pharusaavaacaa, samphappalaapo.) ------------ sutta 42: Walshe DN 33.1.11(42) 'Four Ariyan modes of speech: refraining from lying, slander, abuse, idle gossip. ------ The Co states that the ariyan mode of speech refers to the speech of ariyans, of those who are sappurisa, a good or worthy man. This is an epithet of those who have attained enlightenment. The subco explains that the unariyan way of speech is speech of those who are not virtuous, who are of base conduct. Wrong speech is eradicated stage by stage. The sotaapanna has eradicated lying, the anaagaami (who has attained the third stage of enlightenment) has eradicated slander and abuse (harsh speech), the arahat has eradicated idle gossip. The ariyan has more conditions for kind and wise speech. Although the sotaapanna has, besides lying, not yet eradicated the other kinds of wrong speech, these kinds are diminuated until they are eradicated for good. -------- sutta 43: Walshe DN 33.1.11(43) 'Four more un-Ariyan modes of speech: claiming to have seen, heard, sensed (muta), known what one has not seen, heard, sensed, known. --------- sutta 44: Walshe DN 33.1.11(44) 'Four more Ariyan modes of speech: stating that one has not seen, heard, sensed, known what one has not seen, heard, sensed, known. ------------- sutta 45: Walshe DN 33.1.11(45) 'Four more un-Ariyan modes of speech: claiming not to have seen, heard, sensed, known what one has seen, heard, sensed, known. ---------- sutta 46: Walshe DN 33.1.11(46) 'Four more Ariyan modes of speech: stating that one has seen, heard, sensed, known what one has seen, heard, sensed, known. --------- N: The term 'sensed', mutta, stands for what is experienced through the other sense-doors. The Co and subco state that each kind of speech is caused by cetanaa, volition. Speech that is not according to the truth is an unariyan way of speech, where as speech in accordance with the truth is an ariyan way of speech. An ariyan has directly realized the truth of realities. He knows that there are only naama and ruupa. He is called a person who is on the straight, true and proper way (ujupatipanno, Vis. VII, 90-92). Uprightness of citta and of cetasikas(ujukataa) is among the pairs of sobhana cetasikas accompanying all sobhana cittas. For the ariyan uprightness and all sobhana cetasikas are more developed than in the case of the non-ariyan. He is sincere, truthful and disinclined to deviate from the truth. For those who are still learning, beginning to develop right understanding of what is real in the ultimate sense, there are conditions for the development of truthfulness and uprightness. The inclination to lying speech will gradually become less. At the moment of right awareness and right understanding of naama and ruupa there truly is a threefold training: training in higher siila (adhisiila), higher citta (adhicitta), higher understanding (adhipa~n~naa). Adhicitta refers to firmness of concentration; at that moment only the naama or ruupa that appears is experienced, no person, no world. --------- sutta 47: Walshe DN 33.1.11(47) 'Four persons: Here a certain man (a) torments himself (attan-tapo hoti), is given to self-tormenting, (b) torments others (paran-tapo hoti), ... (c) torments himself and others, ... (d) torments neither himself nor others ... Thereby [iii 233] he dwells in this life without craving, released (nibbuto), cool, enjoying bliss, become as Brahmaa (brahma-bhuutena). ------- N: The co. explains that the first person is an ascetic who torments himself. The subco: he tires himself by his practice. The person who torments others is for example a butcher. The third person who torments both himself and others is the person who arranges for a sacrifice. The fourth person is the person with right practice (sammaapa.tipanno). N: He is on the Middle Way, avoiding the extremes of self- mortification or indulgence in sense pleasures. He is on the Path leading to the eradication of all defilements. He develops right understanding of whatever reality appears, even if it is akusala. The sutta uses the words released and cool, and this pertains to the person who leads the brahman life to perfection, the arahat. He lives a life of non-violence. ---------- Nina. #100962 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:27 am Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! abhidhammika Dear Lukas, Freawaru, Jon, Sarah, Howard, Nina, Robert K, Chris F, Alex How have you been? Please kindly see the revised translation of the Pali quote from the following post at the bottom. I forgot to include 'Monks' and 'I walk' in my previous translation. I must have fallen asleep temporarily as I became sleepy after 2 a.m at night. Please accept my apology if this omission caused any misunderstanding in the readers. 375. "Puna caparam, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vaa `gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati,..." 375. "Again, Monks, as another method (of Bodywise Recollection), the monk knows while walking, 'I walk',..." Section 375, Iriyaapathapabbam, Kaayaanupassanaa,Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam Mahaavaggo, Diighnikaayo. Cheers! Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #100963 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] personal news and Dhamma. nilovg Dear Sarah (and Ken H), Op 28-sep-2009, om 11:59 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I'm sure he inspires many people with his approach and his > thoughtful memoirs. Let us know how the TV interview goes. It > reminds me of the ones you, Ann and Jon gave in India. We were > given a copy of Jon's & Tom's in Lumbini, were you? ------- N: Thank you for your kind concern. The interview was very short, but Lodewijk could get in some points he wanted to put forward. Especially about the late husband of our Queen, Prince Claus, who had inspired him so much. His opinion about himself is that he never did enough in the diplomatic service, that he could have done better. I said that this is thinking of oneself again, as if a self could last and do better or worse. I said that Ken would have stressed that there is only the reality of the present moment. Ken, you do not know how often we speak of you. I never received any copies of a TV interview but never mind. Ann and I enjoyed it, we especially enjoyed the teamwork between us. Nina. #100964 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Mike NZ,pt & all, --- On Tue, 29/9/09, upasaka@... wrote: >Commentarial material is considered by many to be proper explication of Buddha word, but no way is it considered Buddha word. That expression points explicitly to what is understood to be the direct teaching from the mouth of the Buddha. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- S: It depends whether we're considering a modern interpretation of "Buddha word" or the traditional Theravadan understanding of "Buddha vaccana": To re-post from some extracts I've sent before - pls feel free to ignore if you've read them before;-): >As we read in the introduction to the Atthasaalinii, (PTS transl): "... 'Bhikkhus, learned is Mahaakaccaana, profoundly wise is Mahaakaccaana. If you had asked me the same question, I would have answered exactly as he has done.' Thus since the time when the Teacher gave his approval, the whole Suttanta became the word of the Buddha. And it is the same with the Suttas expounded by Aananda and others. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/76687 >As I said before 'Buddha-vacana' refers to what is in accord with the Buddha's teachings. >.....in the Atthasalini, Introductory discourse (PTS transl) it says: "Now when he laid down the table of contents he foresaw that, two hundred and eighteen years after his death, Tissa Moggalii's son, seated in the midst of one thousand bhikkhus, would elaborated the Kathaavatthu to the extent of the Diigha Nikaaya, bringing together five hundred orthodox and five hundred heterodox Suttas. "So Tissa, Moggalii's son, expounded the book not by his own knowledge but according to the table of contents laid down, as well as by the method given, by the Teacher. Hence the entire book became the word of the Buddha." Here's another quote from the same source (as I have the text open) referring to the reciting of the Abhidhamma at the First Council: "Thus at the time of the Rehearsal at the First Council, held by the five hundred, the company of the self-controlled who recited under the presidency of Mahaakassapa did so after previous determination: '[This is the Doctrine, this is the Vinaya], these are the first words, these the middle words, these the later words of the Buddha; this is the Vinaya-Pitaka, this the Suttanta-Pitaka, this the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, this the Diigha Nikaaya.....Khuddaka Nikaaya; these the nine parts, to wit, the Suttas, etc.; these the eightly-four thousand units of text.' And not only this: the various literary expedients appearing in the three Pi.takas such as the lists of contents (uddaana), chapters (vagga), elisions (peyyaala), sections (nipaata) of single, double subjects, etc., groups (sa.myutta), fifties (pa~n~naasa) - all this having been arranged, was rehearsed in seven months." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35687 >1. Sarah: >G.P. Malalsekera 'The Pali Literature of Ceylon', ....says that "the need for an accurate interpretation of the Buddha's words, which formed the guiding principle of life and action of the members of the Sangha, was felt from the very earliest days of the order. When the master was alive there was always the possibility of referring disputed questions direct to him. But even during the master’s lifetime - at the Buddhist centres formed at various places under the leadership of one or other of the famous disciples - discussions, friendly interviews, and analytical expositions used to take place, and the raison d'etre of the commentaries is to be traced to these discussions. Sometimes it happened that accounts of these discussions were duly reported to the Teacher, and some of them were approved by him, and he would then ask the monks to bear the particular expositions in mind as the best that could have been given....."< ..... 2. Sarah: > With regard to the commentaries (as we read them)., Malalasekera in 'The Pali Literature of Ceylon' suggests they were: "not compiled in the modern sense of the word...so that, when Buddhaghosa mentions, in the opening stanzas of the 'Sumgangala-vilaasinii', that the commentary to the Digha-Nikaya was at the first council rehearsed by 500 holy Elders, we may assume that he means, that at this meeting the 'meanings' to be attached to the various terms - particularly to those that appear to have been borrowed from Hindu philosophy - were discussed and properly defined....Such definitions and fixations of meaning formed the nucleus of the later commentaries. The Elders had discussed the important terms at the First Council, and had decided on the method of interpreting and teaching the more recondite doctrines." ...... >S:In fact (according to this book) it seems that they were the utterances of disciples that had received particular approval from the Buddha that were 'esteemed' and 'honoured as much as the words of the Buddha himself'. "These formed the nucleus of the commentaries. Often, when the Buddha preached a sermon in concise form on some aspect of the doctrine, the monks used to repair to one of the chief disciples and get the points explained in greater detail. Such was Maha-Kaccayana, for example, who was foremost in reputation for his power in giving detailed expositions of what the Buddha said in brief. .." ..... >S: If these monks who had heard the words from the Buddha required extra (commentarial) assistance, who are we to think that maybe we can manage without it? I mentioned before that according to Buddhaghosa, the origin of the Mahavihara commentarial tradition goes back to the time of the First Coucil. The commentaries were, he writes: "....rehearsed at the very outset, for the purpose of elucidating the meaning, by the 500 (who were) endowed with self-mastery, and were likewise rehearsed even afterwards were subsequently brought to the island of the Sihalas by Maha-Mahinda (who was) endowed with self-mastery..."< ..... >3. Sarah: I quoted last time that sometimes the Buddha preached 'a sermon in concise form' and then one of the chief disciples would explain in greater detail. Malalasekera continues (The Pali Literature of Ceylon); "When later the text of the canon came to be compiled, arranged, and edited, some of the expositions found their way into the Pitakas and were given a permanent place therein. Thus we have the Sangiti-suttanta of the Digha Nikaya, ascribed to Sariputta and forming a complete catechism of terms and passages of exegetical nature. Such was also the Sacca-vibhanga (an exposition of the four Noble Truths) of the Majjhima, which later found its proper place in the second book of the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, and also the Madhu-pindika-sutta of Maha-Kaccayana, included in the Majjhima Nikaya. "It sometimes happened that for a proper understanding of the text, explanations of a commentarial nature were quite essential; and in such cases the commentary was naturally incorporated into the text and formed part of the text itself.......Then there is the Niddesa, a whole book of commentary on texts now included in the Sutta-nipata; and there are passages clearly of a commentarial nature scattered throughout the Nikayas." < .... Metta Sarah ======= #100965 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:20 am Subject: Re: 3 Sikkhaa (trainings). jonoabb Hi Scott (and others) (100946) > J: "Any thoughts on composing ('coordinating of bodily action')?" > > Scott: I think (and I'll be wrong because I don't like my own opinions) it relates to samaadhi - concentration - which, as it functions in the moment, holds the various states to an object; but in relation to 'bodily action' would refer to a process whereby, over many, many moments, siila (i.e. its constituents) arise and fall away holding, coordinating, and conditioning the many arisings and fallings away of ruupa known conventionally as virtuous bodily action. > > PTS PED: "Samaadhaana (nt.) [sa.m+aa+dhaa] putting together, fixing; concentration Vism 84..." > > Visuddhimagga III: > > "...It is concentration (samaadhi) in the sense of concentrating (sammaadhaana). What is this concentrating? It is the centering (aadhaana) of consciousness and consciousness-concomitants evenly (sama.m) and rightly (samma) on a single object; placing is what is meant..." > > Scott: Does samaadhaana (composing) then refer to the ongoing function of one-pointedness, from moment-to-moment, in concert with the other concomitants of 'virtuous bodily action?' I think so and thus hang myself out to dry... Many thanks for sharing your thoughts. Interesting. > Corrections welcome, Jon. No, I have no idea. Anyone else got any suggestions? Jon #100966 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, hindrances. continuation. jonoabb Hi Howard (100951) > All that I'll add is a bit of a correction/clarification to my overly > succinct statement: Not all calm requires insight. You are clearly correct > in that. (Someone given a tranquilizer, for example, will be quite > calm!!) ;-)) Would *appear* quiet calm, at any rate (although that is not the mental calm of the teachings, in which the calmness is an aspect of the kusala nature of the consciousness). Jon #100967 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) jonoabb Hi Howard (100952) > ---------------------------------------------- > Commentarial material is considered by many to be proper explication > of Buddha word, but no way is it considered Buddha word. That expression > points explicitly to what is understood to be the direct teaching from the > mouth of the Buddha. > ------------------------------------------------ Well I think I've seen it explained differently, but as I'm not able to check texts at the moment I'll have to leave it at that for the time being. Jon #100968 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anusayas hantun1 Dear Nina, While waiting for your comments based on Anusaya Yamaka, I read MN 44 again, and I found some answers to my questions. In the three sub-paragraphs of Paragraph 28, I found the following: ------------------------------ Here, friend Visaakha, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhaana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. With that he abandons lust, and the underlying tendency to lust does not underlie that. [Note 474] Idhaavuso visaakha bhikkhu vivicceva kaamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakka.m savicaara.m vivekaja.m piitisukha.m pa.thama.m jhaana.m upasampajja virahati, raga.m tena pajahati, na tattha raagaanusayo anuseti. [Note 474] MA explains that the bhikkhu suppresses the tendency to lust and attains the first jhaana. Having made the tendency to lust well suppressed by the jhaana, he develops insight and eradicates the tendency to lust by the path of the non-returner. But because it has been suppressed by the jhaana, it is said "the underlying tendency to lust does not underlie that." ------------------------------ Here a bhikkhu considers thus: "When shall I enter upon and abide in that base that the noble ones now enter upon and abide in?" In one who thus generates a longing for the supreme liberations, grief arises with that longing as condition. With that he abandons aversion, and the underlying tendency to aversion does not underlie that. [Note 475] Idhaavuso visaakha bhikkhu iti pa.tisa~ncikkhati: 'kudassu naamaaha.m tadaayatana.m upasampajja viharissaami, yadariyaa etarahi aayatana.m upasampajja viharantii'ti. Iti anuttaresu vimokkhesu piha.m upa.t.thaapayato uppajjati, pihappaccayaa domanassa.m, pa.tigha.m tena pajahati, na tattha pa.tighaanusayo anuseti. [Note 475] MA identifies "that base" (tadaayatana), as well as "the supreme liberations", with arahantship. The grief that arises because of that longing is elsewhere called "the grief based on renunciation" (MN 137.13). MA explains that one does not actually abandon the tendency to aversion by means of that grief; rather, spurred on by the longing for the supreme liberations, one takes up the practice with firm determination and eradicates the tendency to aversion by attaining the path of the non-returner. ------------------------------ Here, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhaana, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. With that he abandons ignorance, and the underlying tendency to ignorance does not underlie that. [Note 476] Idhaavuso visaakha bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahaanaa dukkhassa ca pahaanaa pubbeva somanassadomanassaana.m atthagamaa adukkha.masukha.m upekkhaasatipaarisuddhi.m catuttha.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati, avijja.m tena pajahati, na tattha avijjaanusayo anusetiiti. [Note 476] MA: The bhikkhu suppresses the tendency to ignorance with the fourth jhaana, makes it well suppressed, and then eradicates the tendency to ignorance by attaining the path of arhantship. ------------------------------- Han: From the above I noted that: (1) The underlying tendency to lust (raagaanusaya) does not underlie the pleasant feeling of the First Jhaana (piitisukha.m pa.thama.m jhaana.m). (2) The underlying tendency to aversion (pa.tighaanusaya) does not underlie the painful feeling or grief that arises with the longing for the supreme liberations (anuttaresu vimokkhesu pihappaccayaa domanassa.m). (3) The underlying tendency to ignorance (avijjaanusaya) does not underlie the neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the Fourth Jhaana (adukkha.masukha.m upekkhaasatipaarisuddhi.m catuttha.m jhaana.m). I will wait for your more elaborate explanations. Respectfully, Han #100969 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:47 am Subject: Re: There is More to Samadhi/Ken (Re: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board.) sarahprocter... Dear Howard & Ken H, Just to clarify a note I made below which a friend (actually Jon in Fiji) suggested was unclear: >>H: The following is from the Satipatthana Sutta: > > > "When the mind is constricted, he discerns that the mind is constricted. > When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the > mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is > not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is > surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is > unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is > concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not > concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is > released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, > he discerns that the mind is not released. > > > There is always but one object of consciousness. But there is NOT > always concentration. Note the Buddha saying in the foregoing: "When the mind > is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind > is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. " > ------------ ------- >S.... For the last two mentioned above: "Samaahitam cittam = 'the quieted state of consciousness. ' It refers to the conscious state of him who has full or partial absorption. "Asamaahitam cittam = 'The state of consciousness not quieted.' It refers to the state without either absorption." ... S: By "the last two mentioned, I meant "the last two mentioned in Howard's note, i.e "When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated." The Pali for the full list mentioned in Howard's extract (from Soma Thera's translation of the Satipatthana Sutta and commentaries) is the following: >Sankhittam cittam = "The shrunken state of consciousness." The conscious state fallen into sloth and torpor. That is called the shrivelled or contracted state of mind. Vikkhittam cittam = "The distracted state of consciousness." The conscious state accompanied by agitation. That is called the dissipated mind. Mahaggatam cittam = "The state of consciousness become great." The conscious state of the sensuous-ethereal [rupavacara] plane of existence and of the purely ethereal [arupavacara] plane of existence. Amahaggatam cittam = "The state of consciousness not become great." The conscious state of the plane of existence of sense-experience. Sauttaram cittam = "The state of consciousness with some other mental state superior to it." That refers to any conscious state belonging to the plane of sense-experience. Anuttaram cittam = "The state of consciousness with no other mental state superior to it." That refers to any conscious state belonging to the sensuous-ethereal [rupavacara] or the purely ethereal [arupavacara] plane. Samahitam cittam = "The quieted state of consciousness." It refers to the conscious state of him who has full or partial absorption. Asamahitam cittam = "The state of consciousness not quieted." It refers to the conscious state without either absorption. Vimuttam cittam = "the freed state of consciousness." That refers to the conscious state, emancipated partially from defilements through systematic or radical reflection, or to the conscious state, emancipated through the suppression of the defilements in absorption. Both these kinds of emancipation are temporary. Avimuttam cittam = "The unfreed state of consciousness." That refers to any conscious state without either kind of temporary emancipation.< Hope that's clearer, Metta Sarah ======== #100970 From: "freawaru80" Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 5. freawaru80 Dear Nina, ahhh, you really confuse me. On the one hand you seem to dismiss a practice that includes reaching states based on concentration (such as jhana or the samadhi with the elements - the practice that leads to the iddhis - as described by Buddhaghosa) and then you say that you don't. Could you please explain what you point of view is. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Freawaru, > Op 29-sep-2009, om 11:03 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > > > N: They > > > believe that the Buddha taught a method of meditation to reach > > > tranquillity, or even extraordinary experiences such as a mystical > > > trance. .... It is a wrong conception of Buddhism to think that > > the goal of the Buddha's > > > Path are mystical experiences to be reached by concentration. The > > > Buddha's Path has nothing to do with unworldly mysticism, it is very > > > concrete and matter of fact. > -------- > N: I speak about trance, mystical experiences, and take note of this: > about unworldly mysticism. This is not the same as true, genuine > jhaana. I do not deny that true jhaana is a high degree of kusala and > that the Buddha was incomparable in his achievement of jhaana and > supranatural powers, iddhi, and in his wisdom. > The jhaanafactors which are sobhana are described in the sutta and > also in the Abhidhamma, no contradictions. Perhaps you still find it > difficult that there can be also akusala jhaanafactors. There are > also akusala Pathfactors, the wrong path as described in the suttas. > What I merely described in the passage above: some people have wrong > expectations about Buddhism. They do not see that the goal of jhaana > is not: exciting experiences, but detachment, detachment from sense > objects. > My Ch 7 deals with mental development and meditation which is kusala. Could you please explain what you mean by "unwordly mysticsm". I don't know what this should be except nibbana. Worldly mysticsm I guess refers to the lokas (such as encountering deva or hungry ghosts) but external to the lokas there is only nibbana - at least in Theravada, in Tibetan Buddhism we find the bardos (intermediate states): do you refer to those? I agree that jhana is not the *goal* of Buddhism, but experiencing those states is certainly a part of the Path. So why should it be wrong to practice whatever helps one reaching them.... not to mention that by jhana in this life one has a good chance to be reborn as a deva and then one can really understand Abhidhamma as it is taught in it's completeness in the deva loka. #100971 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:20 am Subject: Re: 3 Sikkhaa (trainings). scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Regarding: J: "No, I have no idea. Anyone else got any suggestions?" Scott: Oh, too bad. I'd hoped you were familiar with the term. I don't like offering opinions - too common and commonly wrong. If anyone has anymore textual support that would be cool. Sincerely, Scott. #100972 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 6. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina- In a message dated 9/29/2009 11:06:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, It is felt by some people that, in order to develop understanding of one’s mind, one should retire from daily life and sit still in quiet surroundings. ============================== In addition to other practices, the Buddha repeatedly urges this. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100973 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A not so short Hello sarahprocter... Dear Freewaru, --- On Mon, 28/9/09, freawaru80 wrote: >> S: I think you're already doing this and considering what the various terms, such as 'nama', 'rupa', 'vipassana' mean. >Yes. But it looks like there is no agreement on what they mean. Different teachers seem to interprete them differently. :-( .... S: So this is why we look at what the ancient Theravada texts say. For example, Nina quoted the following from her book: >The "Visuddhimagga" (XVIII, 31) uses a simile of a marionette in order to illustrate that there is no human being in the ultimate sense, only conditioned phenomena. We read: "Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the Ancients said: 'The mental and material are really here, 'But here there is no human being to be found, 'For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll 'Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks."< ... S: In other words, whilst we take there to be a self that practices and performs all sorts of activities, in actuality, there are just namas and rupas, mental and physical realities, void of any self. The practice of satipatthana begins with the clear understanding of such namas and rupas. For example, seeing now is a nama, visible object now is a rupa. Bodily consciousness is a nama, feeling is a nama. Tangible object is a rupa. Is there any clear understanding of what is experienced now and whether it is a nama or a rupa? If not, then it means we're bound to still be taking all these phenomena for a Self. ... > S: I think it depends what is meant by 'pure observation' . Vipassana means insight or developed understanding of namas and rupas (mental and physical realities). >Yes. It feels like pure observation. Recognition happens of course, too. But no judgement for example. One "sees" the thoughts, intentions, emotions, images, sensory informations and so on arising and falling within a closed space from an open space perspective. It is a bit (but only a bit) like reading the thoughts of a fictional character in a book. There is detachment from it all but one can also "see" it all. ... S: Again, I think we have to start at the beginning. Firstly, there's no 'one' who sees or observes anything. There are dhammas arising and falling away, but first the clear distinction between namas and rupas have to be known. In the examples you gave, which are namas, which are rupas and which are concepts? For example, by 'image', do you mean just the visible object which is seen or a 'picture' or 'impression'? If it's the latter, it can only be thought about, it cannot be the object of insight. Let's go slowly. We can discuss the other points you mentioned later if you like. Metta Sarah ======== #100974 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/30/2009 4:09:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, Mike NZ,pt & all, --- On Tue, 29/9/09, upasaka@... wrote: >Commentarial material is considered by many to be proper explication of Buddha word, but no way is it considered Buddha word. That expression points explicitly to what is understood to be the direct teaching from the mouth of the Buddha. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- S: It depends whether we're considering a modern interpretation of "Buddha word" or the traditional Theravadan understanding of "Buddha vaccana": ============================= There's nothing like relying on commentary in support of commentary! ;-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100975 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/30/2009 4:24:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (100952) > ---------------------------------------------- > Commentarial material is considered by many to be proper explication > of Buddha word, but no way is it considered Buddha word. That expression > points explicitly to what is understood to be the direct teaching from the > mouth of the Buddha. > ------------------------------------------------ Well I think I've seen it explained differently, but as I'm not able to check texts at the moment I'll have to leave it at that for the time being. Jon =============================== What I WILL agree to, becase I recall this, is that there is at least one sutta in which the Buddha said something along the lines that any teaching (not necessarily even Buddhist) that is conducive to calm and relinquishment is to be considered Dhamma. But I do not believe the terminology "Buddha word" was used there. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100976 From: "freawaru80" Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. freawaru80 Hi Colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > the condition of DREAM STATE as being a consciousness which can be recalled? Isn't that the state of YOGA NIDRA? A fourth consciousness outside the levels of consciousness as depicted in the Western psychology: Beta, alpha, theta, delta? Yoga Nidra is outside these states, levels of electrical brain wave functioning. You may also care to look into DZOGCHEN but that's a Mahayana practice outside, external to, the Theravadan practice. > > toodles, > colette > I think that "The Fourth" in Yoga refers to a high level vipassana state. It is also referred to as the "Witness". The Thai Forest Tradition also uses the name "Witness" for it. It is - IMO - not identical to normal dream lucidity. But there are similarities such as the separation and detachment. The Fourth is defined as the state that observes the states of wake, dream and deep sleep (and the intermediate ones and samadhi too, like jhana). So when one is in the Fourth the jhana experiences is not like "I am jhana" but "the mind is in jhana". #100977 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) sarahprocter... Dear pt, #100682 --- On Thu, 17/9/09, ptaus1 wrote: >pt: Agreed, so for "focussing, concentration, samatha, etc" to be kusala, there'd have to be panna at the moment. As to what kind of panna that would be, more below. ... S: Just to clarify - concentration and samatha arise with every sobhana citta. So even at moments of dana or sila when there is no panna arising, there is still wholesome concentration and samatha (calm). ... >pt: .... We agree on the bottom line that it's the kusala citta that matters in the end. As regards specific samatha objects - perhaps it again has to do with accumulations? ... S: Like now, it depends on accumulations what we reflect on, whether there is any understanding or calm. ... >I mean, breath might work better for some, while metta would work better for others, etc. - there are specific objects outlined for people of different temperaments, and what are temperaments other than accumulations pretty much? ... S: I wouldn't quite put it like this - it sounds like a choosing to have metta or calm with a particular object at a particular time. Of course, it depends on many conditions, including past accumulations, as to whether metta arises and develops, such as now, or whether there is animosity instead. The same with reflections on other objects, such as death. Usually, when we attempt to have calm by reflecting on an object of samatha, there is self wishing for a result behind it with no understanding - therefore, no samatha. ... >And if I remember rightly, different objects are also applicable in different situations, so it's probably also up to panna to know which object is most applicable at the moment. ... S: I think it's up to panna to understand either the reality now appearing or the the concept in a wise way when it's experienced. .... >pt: Well, if there's no panna at the moment to understand that lobha is behind the present intention to focus on the object - then it will be akusala. ... S: Yes. .... > That's probably the very first mistake anyone makes when attempting "meditation" for the first time (of first few hundred times). But hopefully, at some point there comes a realisation that this doesn't really work. And then usually there's a natural settling on whatever object (i.e. without lobha or dosa), and then for the first time there's a little bit of understanding of the difference between kusala and akusala, which gradually becomes more sharp. ... S: I think that any right understanding arises because of accumulations for such and in spite of the wrong views associated with intentions to focus on particular objects in order to develop kusala. .... >In fact, what I just wrote is pretty much exactly what you're saying below: > S: Yes, there will, but I also think it's all about the purpose. For example, with your first example of the texts - there's a difference between focussing on the texts to have more calm or understanding with an expectation or wish for such (i.e. lobha) and a focussing or studying naturally out of (kusala) interest or seeing the value of such. Not sure if that's clear... >pt: However, whatever the object, there will still be both kusala and akusala moments, and realizing the difference between the two is what matters in the end, though it happens entirely on its own. ... S: Yes. It happens if there is sufficient wise attention and considering of the Dhamma. ... .... >> S: However, in order for panna to make its presence, there has to be understanding of the object in a kusala way at such a time. As you say, it's not about the situation or activity. This is why we cannot say there's necessarily any calm whilst focussing in formal meditation, eating apples or studying a text. If, however, we believe that focussing in f.m. or on energy channels or studying texts is the way to have more calm, we can be sure that there are bound to be many akusala moments, including the only obstacle to the development of satipatthana, i.e miccha ditthi. >pt: Agreed. I don't know many formal meditators, but from limited experience, I'd say that almost every sincere meditator recognises miccha ditthi from experience very soon in the practice, and is from then on very careful about it, even though s/he might not be able to explain it properly to others, and that's why the arguments happen I think. I've heard the right/wrong view experience described as "doer/no doer, tension/relaxation, grasping/non- grasping, watcher/observer" and many others. So for someone who doesn't know much about texts, this basic experience of panna seeing the kusala/akusala difference is what f.m. is all about and they will defend f.m. on their lives - in effect they are standing up for panna, not for a particular method, even though they might not realize it. But, no sure way to know what goes on in someone's head. ... S: I think this sounds like wishful thinking:-) When people defend f.m. with their lives, it never sounds like standing up for panna to me:-)) There is no understanding of namas and rupas as anatta. Without that, it's bound to be micha ditthi motivating the f.m. as I see it. As we know, micha ditthi can be very subtle too. Like now, do we take the computer for something? Or the arm as something, as part of my body? Metta Sarah ======= #100978 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anusayas nilovg Dear Han, that is the way I read it too. B.B. gives extracts from the co to this sutta in his notes. The coming weekend I have more time to reread my study of the anusayas and see whether there is more material. Also, in the Guide to the Abh. there is more on anusaya yamaka. Perhaps you could consult your Burmese co too. Nina. Op 30-sep-2009, om 10:36 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: From the above I noted that: > > (1) The underlying tendency to lust (raagaanusaya) does not > underlie the pleasant feeling of the First Jhaana (piitisukha.m > pa.thama.m jhaana.m). > > (2) The underlying tendency to aversion (pa.tighaanusaya) does not > underlie the painful feeling or grief that arises with the longing > for the supreme liberations (anuttaresu vimokkhesu pihappaccayaa > domanassa.m). > > (3) The underlying tendency to ignorance (avijjaanusaya) does not > underlie the neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the Fourth > Jhaana (adukkha.masukha.m upekkhaasatipaarisuddhi.m catuttha.m > jhaana.m). #100979 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 5. nilovg Dear pt, Op 30-sep-2009, om 13:07 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > Could you please explain what you mean by "unwordly mysticsm". I > don't know what this should be except nibbana. Worldly mysticsm I > guess refers to the lokas (such as encountering deva or hungry > ghosts) but external to the lokas there is only nibbana - at least > in Theravada, in Tibetan Buddhism we find the bardos (intermediate > states): do you refer to those? ------- N: No. Some people have a vague idea about concentration, calm and jhaana. I mean exciting experiences, like escapism from daily life, which you also mentioned as not being the goal. ------- > > pt: I agree that jhana is not the *goal* of Buddhism, but > experiencing those states is certainly a part of the Path. So why > should it be wrong to practice whatever helps one reaching them.... > not to mention that by jhana in this life one has a good chance to > be reborn as a deva and then one can really understand Abhidhamma > as it is taught in it's completeness in the deva loka. ------- N: Would that not be wishful thinking? Better understand your daily life right now. We do not know the future, there is just the present moment. People in the Buddha's time who developed jhaana did not do so with an idea of self. They developed jhaana and vipassanaa. Otherwise one always misses the goal. Isn't that sorrowful? Nina. #100980 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 30-sep-2009, om 13:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It is felt by some people that, in order to develop understanding of > one’s mind, one should retire from daily life and sit still in quiet > surroundings. > ============================== > In addition to other practices, the Buddha repeatedly urges this. ------ N: Yes, to whom? To monks, they lead a life suitable for monks. ----- Nina. #100981 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anusayas hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: Perhaps you could consult your Burmese co too. Han: The Burmese co is still very difficult for me. I think the Burmese book is meant for someone who knows the basics of Yamaka already. But I am still very new to it. So I do not have confidence in myself. I will wait for your comments and I will then read the Burmese co together with your notes. Respectfully, Han #100982 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 6. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/30/2009 8:38:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 30-sep-2009, om 13:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It is felt by some people that, in order to develop understanding of > one’s mind, one should retire from daily life and sit still in quiet > surroundings. > ============================== > In addition to other practices, the Buddha repeatedly urges this. ------ N: Yes, to whom? To monks, they lead a life suitable for monks. ----- Nina. ================================ At the time of the Buddha, only monks had the leisure for such practice. It is different now, especially in the "developed countries" and especially for retirees. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100983 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! ashkenn2k Dear Suan it does not mean a formal walking method. It means the monk is mindful, he knows it is walking but he also know there is no self in walking. When there realisation that no self in walking, there is equanimity. When there is even-mindness, there is no hurry, the stride will be natural and steady or slow down. Cheers Ken O 375. "Puna caparam, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vaa `gacchaamii' ti pajaanaati,. .." 375. "Again, Monks, as another method (of Bodywise Recollection) , the monk knows while walking, 'I walk',..." Section 375, Iriyaapathapabbam, Kaayaanupassanaa, Mahaasatipa. t.thaana Suttam Mahaavaggo, Diighnikaayo. #100984 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 11 Advantages! sarahprocter... Hi JC (Geri geri)* --- On Tue, 29/9/09, Geri geri wrote: > First of all, I would like to ask how to start a new topic in DSG. It doesn't seem to accept a new topic. .... S: If your are writing from your yahoo mail account as I usually do, then: 1. In the "To:" space, put in "dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com: 2. In the "Subject" space, put in your new subject heading 3. compose yr message and send! If you are doing it on the DSG website, then I suggest: 1. Open any message 2. Delete the contents 3. Change the subject heading 4. compose yr message and send! ..... >Second, I have this question. The Buddha said that the establishment of the order of nuns will shorten the lifespan of the Dhamma by 500 years. Is He meaning this to be the path to arahetship? The Dhamma is 2500 years old now, so if its not the path to arahatship, what is the Buddha referring to that will last only 500 years? And if it is the path to arahatship He is referring to, didn't the texts say that it will last for 1000 years? 1000 years later anagami hood will disappear, 1000 more the sakadagami hood, 1000 still the path to stream-entry? .... S: This has been discussed at length and I'm shortly going out, so I'd like to recommend you take a look in "useful Posts" in the "files" section of DSG (left side on the home page). Click "S" at the top and then scroll down to "Sasana". You'll find the following: Sasana (dispensation of the teachings) - decline of, see also 'Science', 'Path -One or Many', 'Ekayanao' 11275, 16462, 20878, 20908, 24255, 24257, 24386, 24576, 24577, 25445, 26329, 36693, 48619, 51933, 52306, 57389, 57484, 57674, 70780, 73356, 73438, 78035, 78075, 78519, 92550 In "useful posts", all the numbers are highlighted. You can click on each one and it'll take you to saved messages giving you all the detail on this topic you've ever wished for:-). Let us know how you go! Metta Sarah *p.s Would you kindly make it clear what your commonly used name is that you'd like us to address you by and please sign off with this each time, otherwise it's confusing for us. TIA! Where do you live? Can you give us an intro? =========== #100985 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yamaka Pali sarahprocter... Dear Chew (& Han), Just wished to say, very belatedly, that I thought your detailed reply to Han (#100741) was amazing!! I hope he'll raise more questions or that you'll ask him to check his texts further:-) Let me know if you'd like me to add anymore of the summaries along the way too. Metta Sarah ======= #100986 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] personal news and Dhamma. sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Lodewijk), I'm glad the interview went well. --- On Wed, 30/9/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >N: His opinion about himself is that he never did enough in the diplomatic service, that he could have done better. I said that this is thinking of oneself again, as if a self could last and do better or worse. I said that Ken would have stressed that there is only the reality of the present moment. .... S: Yes, this is so important. As you quoted KS as saying in an extract from "Egypt": "Thus, life goes on from moment to moment, until death. Life is only one moment of experiencing an object and then it is gone, forever." Usually, we're lost in concepts about the past or future and forget all about awareness and understanding of what is experienced now. It's a good reminder for us all.... We can see how the development of right understanding leads to less regret, less concern about the past or future and more contentment and calm at this moment. Metta Sarah ======= #100987 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 5. ashkenn2k Dear Nina I like to add on to your comments which you rightly point out. Buddha has attained jhanas many times when he is a Bodhisatta but that is not enlightment. Even when he attain jhanas, he could lose it by the act of akusala as long. This is seen in the commentary to the "Harita Jakata" (no 431), where Buddha in his past lives lost his jhanas where he did a misconduct with a Queen. This is in the book pg 139, The Perfections Leading to Enlightment written by Sujin and translated by you. As long as one does not achieve enlightment, cut off the taints, even with high panna, one could fall into akusala. This quote again from the story The Bodhisatta said "Evil thoughts, great king, cause clinging to an image, Taking it for beautiful, and they accompanied by excitement. They are bound to harm even a person with panna who is inclined to the excellence of recluseship." The king said "Lust arises in your body, destroys your beauty Abandon lustful excitment And you will prosper You will be praised by many for your Wisdom" The Bodhisatta after hearing what the king said, regain his awareness, said "Sense pleasures are blinding they cause much suffering. They injure gravely. I shall look for the root of sensuousness I shall cut down lust with its bonds." Cheers Ken O #100988 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, --- On Wed, 23/9/09, sprlrt wrote: >Thanks, also, paņņa/understanding (of paramattha dhammas), a kusala root/hetu arising with the four maha kusala citta ņāna sampayutta, can know the intrinsic characteristic of any paramattha dhamma, one at the time, inc. that of vicikiccha and of moha (as dhamma anupassana), that of vedana (anupassana) , and that of the 11th akusala citta (anupassana) , rooted in ignorance (of paramattha dhammas), accompanied by upekkha and associated with doubt; akusala dhammas that have just previously fallen away. I think this would be an example of akusala dhammas being pakatųpanissaya paccaya for kusala ones. ..... S: Possibly. Pakatuupanissaya paccaya is certainly the broadest condition - anything can condition cittas and cetasikas by this condition. Certainly, object condition. ..... >But realities arise by conditions, i.e. more than one, and for kusala or akusala dhammas these would include root/hetu paccaya, which in its turn can condition only the same jati of the paccaya itself, i.e. an akusala root won't condition the arising of a kusala one. From Nina's excellent work on Vis. & tėka, XVII, 68, Hetu paccaya: ...."The Tiika explains that root-condition operates by assisting in both ways, in the presence and in the arising of another dhamma."... And for paņņa to be (kusala) hetu paccaya for the arising of patipatti it has to develop first through pariyatti, "theory", as yoniso manasikara; with pativedha, i.e. magga cittas knowing nibbana, eradicating kilesa dhammas. .... S: Yes. I appreciate all your posts - always a challenge:-). Metta Sarah ======= #100989 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 3 Sikkhaa (trainings). ashkenn2k Dear Scoot and Jon Any thoughts on composing ('coordinating of bodily action')? KO - it is cetana cetasika. from Cetasika book by Nina The AtthasÃĨliní (I, Part IV, Chapter I, 111) states about cetanÃĨ that its characteristic is coordinating the associated dhammas (citta and the other cetasikas) on the object and that its function is ‘willing’. We read: â€ĶThere is no such thing as volition in the four planes of existence without the characteristic of coordinating; all volition has it. But the function of ‘willing’ is only in moral (kusala) and immoral (akusala) statesâ€Ķ It has directing as manifestation. It arises directing associated states, like the chief disciple, the chief carpenter, etc. who fulfil their own and others’ duties. cheers Ken O #100990 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) ashkenn2k Dear Mike I'm still somewhat interested in the point I brought up in my first post. It appears that most of the details about mind-moments (17 mind moments, etc)is Commentarial. It's in the VM and the AS, but not in the Canonical volumes as far as I can see (and as posted by a several people here). I don't say this to necessarily dismiss the ideas (there is a lot of great stuff in Commentary), but I think it is useful to know where the ideas come from. It is particularly helpful to know when talking to those who don't see the Abhidhamma as the word of the Buddha (because in fact what they are saying is not - such as the 17 mind moments - isn't claimed to have been spoken directly by the Buddha if I've understood things correctly). KO - it takes a lot of faith to believe the commentary is authentic. A lot of benefit could be realised through the study of commentarial because a lot of the sutta are condensed. Through it, the understanding of the terms and especially the understanding of not-self are clearly and exhausitive define. Enjoy your stay here, you will hear a lot of commentarial texts here and understanding of nama and rupa. I hope it would benefit you greatly while you are here. Cheers Ken O #100991 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 3 Sikkhaa (trainings). scottduncan2 Dear Ken and Jon, Regarding: K: "...it is cetana cetasika..."..."'There is no such thing as volition in the four planes of existence without the characteristic of coordinating; all volition has it. But the function of ˜willing' is only in moral (kusala) and immoral (akusala)..." Scott: Yes, cetanaa cetasika does have this characteristic - but apparently as well as citass'ekkagata, as I quoted (Vism). Regarding 'virtue': "...It is either a coordinating (samaadhaana), meaning non-inconsistency of bodily action, etc., due to virtuousness..." And regarding concentration': "...It is concentration (samaadhi) in the sense of concentrating (sammaadhaana). What is this concentrating? It is the centering (aadhaana) of consciousness and consciousness-concomitants evenly (sama.m) and rightly (samma) on a single object; placing is what is meant..." We know that these are two separate mental factors. I would say that coordinating (samaadhaana) is a characteristic of both, likely each according to its own separate and distinct nature but still, in this sense, coordinating. It is likely that both, and even other mental factors can and must contribute to the overall 'coordinating' that must result in, say, bodily action. What think you? Sincerely, Scoot (ha ha - it's Scott, but who's he when he's at home?) #100992 From: "colette" Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. ksheri3 Good Morning "freawaru80", > I think that "The Fourth" in Yoga refers to a high level vipassana state. It is also referred to as the "Witness". The Thai Forest Tradition also uses the name "Witness" for it. > That is my exact point. THANK YOU! Not specifying another sect or view I am strictly pointing at the INSANITY of "going along to get along" or the beaurocratic view or the corporate view. WE here are dealing with something that the corporate world and the corporate slaves do not control and cannot control because of the slavery to money which is a hallucination in itself. Reality exists outside of money. Reality exists outside of the corporate world. I watched my dad, as a corporate salesman for Alegheny Airlines, no Republic Airlines, move from and develope from Allegheny to McDonalds and saw/witnessed he changes that took place. YOU, "freawaru80", you take Yoga Nidra as being a resultant phenomena, a slave of, VIPASSANA. [Nina, I am soooooooo deep in Dzogchen and the meditative processess of Tantra that I could care less if this person actualy set you up being that you display a "german" moniker] You qualify this state of consciousness as being a resultant phenomena of a Vipissana practice? I thoroughly agree that the state of consciousness which I term as being Yoga Nidra, I am willing to say that this state of "being", that this state of consciousness, is DEPENDENT upon a process and a methodology. Methodology however constitutes TANTRA. We, you, I, any student researching the subject of organized theology, we will all eventually reach a point where the STATUS QUO, the ORTHODOXY, losses it's grasp and control of that which they dictate. For instance in Eastern philosphy and psychology we find TANTRA but in the WEstern philosophy and the Western psychology we find GNOSTICISM. The Hindu, being the foundation of Buddhism, condemns the practice of Tantra, et al, in their monumental library of theologies. It does not matter what group you speak of the second that a new sect states that TANTRA is their practice they are then condemned; much like the exact same concept in the WEstern theological traditions such as Christianity. If you mention GNOSTICISM to a christian, well, then, you've just condemned yourself since Christianity will not allow a Gnostic or a Cather to exist. And the Muslims think that they have problems with Christianity? They, the muslims, think that Osama Bin Laden is a pain in their ass that they can't get rid of but look at what Christianity does to it's own people, I mean, if you even think outside of the coffin, the sarcoughogus, the great wall, that christianity builds to control the existance of all life from womb to tomb, well, then, you will easily notice that all ya gotta do to get their anger raised is mention the Cathers and/or Gnostics and they will bring forth a hate that is such a glory of iconography to the SPANISH INQUISITION that they will never, EVER, allow you to breathe if you do not publicly glorify their control of prosititution. So, am I to believe that the Tongs in San Francisco are wrong for their exploitation of prostitution when it is clearly the STANDARD OPERRATING PROCEDURE OF THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY, AS DICTATED BY THE NICENE CREED, AND PUBLISHED IN THIS FICTIONAL USERS MANUAL CALLED THE HOLY BIBLE? Could it be a "Faulty Tower of Babble"? A falty tower of babble which consumes the Western traditions? And I take it that the Jew has no problems with this fictional document called THE NEW TESTAMENT? We, in the Buddhist community, we have foundations and we have our own sects that deviate. <...> my friend, you have lossed the definition of CONSCIOUSNESS and I'd dare to say that you have completely thrown the definition of consciousness out the window as a means to glorify your definition of Jhnana, here. <...> toodles, colette #100993 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:53 pm Subject: Compassionate Pity! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Compassionate Pity cures all bitter Cruelty: How does a Bhikkhu dwell pervading one direction with his mind endued with compassion? Just as he would feel compassion on seeing an unlucky, unfortunate person, so he pervades all beings with boundless compassion! Therefore first of all, on eyeing a wretched man, deplorable, unfortunate, in every way a fit object for compassion, horrid, reduced to utter misery, with hands and feet cut off, sitting in the shelter for the weak & helpless with an empty dirty pot placed before him, with maggots in all his wounds, moaning, compassionate pity should be felt for him in this way: This being has been reduced to misery: If only he could be freed from his suffering! Similarly too should a Bhikkhu whose meditation subject is compassion also arouse compassion for an evil-wrong-doing person, even if he is happy now: Though this poor wretch is now happy, cheerful, & enjoying his wealth, but still, since he has neglected to do even one single good deed, he can come to experience untold suffering anytime after a downfall to the states of loss! Such infinitely compassionate pity he feels towards all beings and especially both towards himself, the dear friend, the neutral one, & the hostile person, thereby breaking down the wrong attitude barrier separating these objects. Vbh 273, Vism I 315 Have a nice compassionate day! Friendship is the Greatest! http://What-Buddha-Said.net Compassionate Pity! #100994 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 2:26 am Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. sukinderpal Hi Sarah, I'm more behind than I've ever been for various reasons. ============= > Sarah: I think the following which I discussed with Han is relevant to this discussion and one we were having with Ken H: > > >S: In the Udaana commentary, Sona chapter, #3 "Leper", about Suppabuddha, there area lot of details on the progressive talk (aanupubbikatha.m), which we've already discussed and referred to. > <...> > ".....'Anyone capable of perceiving Dhamma (bhabbo dhamma.m vi~n~naatu.m)': > anyone capable of attaining Dhamma in the form of the paths and their fruitions, meaning anyone endowed with the potential. 'This occurred (etad ahosi)': this occurred, viz. 'Although this Suppabuddha has been born as such after committing an offence against the Paccekabuddha Tagarasikhi, his potential as regards the paths and their fruitions nonetheless flashes forth within his heart like a golden ring covered by dust; he can easily be made to perceive', for which reason 'This one is, in the present case, one capable of perceivig Dhamma' was said. > > " 'A progressive talk (aanupubbikatha.m)': a talk (that proceeds) successively such that (talk) on morality is immediately preceded by that on almsgiving, (talk) on heaven is immediately preceded by that on morality, (talk) on the path is immediately preceded by that on heaven; for the Lord, having in the first instance indicated a sweet taste (assaada.m) together with its root-cause, then makes manifest by various means the peril (therein), in order to separate beings therefrom, and then finally indicates, to those whose hearts have been shocked through hearing of that peril(aadiinavasavanena), the absence of the cycle, opening with an explanation of the virtues of renunciation." Suk: I never skip any of your posts (except for the ones about the origin of the Abhidhamma ;-)), but I don't recall reading this one with Han. I'm very grateful that you quote it here for me. Thank you. ========= > >S: I was interested to know why the section on 'heaven' was included after the sections on almsgiving (daanakatha.m) and morality (siilakatha.m)and this is what the text states: > > >"...Moreover, he talked talk on heaven immediately preceded by that on morality in order to indicate that it is dependent upon such morality that that heaven is obtained. 'Talk on heaven (saggakatha.m)': talk associated with the virtues of heaven such as 'Heaven is a name for that which is desirable, for that which is pleasing, for that which is charming. Permanently here (there is) sporting, permanent the excellences obtained: the devas belonging to the realm of the Four Great Kings acquire heavenly happiness, heavenly excellence, for ninety hundred thousand years, those of the Thirty-three for three ko.tis of years plus sixty hundred thousand years (besides)' and so on, for the mouth fails to suffice when > Buddhas talk on heavenly excellence. > > >"And this also is said: 'In countless ways, monks, could I talk talk on heaven' and so forth. Having thus enticed him with talk on heaven together with its root-cause, he next, as though severing the trunk of the elephant he had just decorated, talked of the peril, the degradation, the corruption of sense-desires after the manner of 'Of little sweet taste are sense-desires, of much dukkha, of much despair' more so is the peril herein' (M i 130) and so on with the aim of showing even such heaven to be impermanent, unstable, (and) that yearning and lust ought not to be exercised in that direction. Herein: > > >" 'The peril (aadiinava.m)': the blemish. 'The degradation (okaara.m)': that which is in its own nature despicable, meaning that which is, in its own nature, base is a thing to be pursued by those other than the best (of folk), not a thing to be pursued by the best (of folk). 'The corruption (sa"nkilesam)': the defiling within sa.msaara of beings by way of these, for which same reason 'Truly, sir, do beings become defiled' was said." > > >S: Having talked about the danger of sense-desires, "severing the trunk of the elephant he had just decorated", the talk continues with the advantages of renunciation and when the listener was receptive, in this case Suppabuddha the leper, the teaching on the Four Noble Truths - 'Dukkha, uprising, cessation (and the) path'. Suk: The Buddha pointed out rebirth in heaven being result of kusala kamma of particular kind but also that this is anicca, dukkha and anatta, hence the need to develop the understanding which leads out of samsara. It is not as some would suggest, that the Buddha encouraged *aiming* for good rebirth for those who can't have any level of understanding of the Eightfold Path. =========== > >The texts refers to Suppabuddha's "swift completion of vipassanaa, his sharpness of isnsight, his ease of practice, and his rapid superknowledge." The simile of cleaning cloth is given and I like the following elaboration of it: > > >"(Suppabuddha's) heart is to be regarded as the cloth, his heart's being > corrupted by the stains of lust and so on as the cloth's being defiled by > adventitious stains, the progressive talk as the washboard, faith as the water, his initiation of energy with respect to the heart's cleansing via the faith-method and so on after first moistening it in the stream of faith and then loosening its blemishes by way of mindfulness, concentration and insight as the business of washing the cloth after first successively moistening it with water and then scouring the black specks with cow-dung or lye, suppression of the defilements by means of that initiation of energy as the departure of the black specks in the cloth by means of that business, the ariyan path as the colouring, (whilst) the thorough cleansing, by means of the path, of his heart, in which the defilements have been suppressed, as the shining bright state of the cloth > that has been cleaned in that way."< > ..... > S: I think that, just like now, people aspired to heavenly rebirths and in many cases, as this one, it was only after talking about the great results of daana and morality by way of such rebirths, that the trunk of the elephean could be severed and the insights into conditioned impermanent dhammaa realised. Suk: Yes. The Buddha knew what to say to whom. In some case the audience may not be ready for higher understanding and would simply develop more kusala of other kinds, but the Buddha had the long term goal in mind. There is also this that the Buddha *knowing* the accumulations saying just the right thing, and the Buddhist today coming to his own conclusion about what he needs to hear and do. The former can't ever be wrong, whereas the latter inevitably is and must involve Wrong View of one kind or another. Thanks again for finding and posting this old discussion. Metta, Sukin #100995 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 5:15 am Subject: Re: urination and sati..Enter The Abhidhammika 4! rjkjp1 -Dear Suan In that same sutta there is a part where it says that the Bhikkhu is aware while urinating and defecating. I wonder if there is an implication of doing formal defacation or urination, or that these be done slower than normal? Robert > > 375. "Puna caparam, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vaa `gacchaamii'ti > pajaanaati,..." > > 375. "Again, Monks, as another method (of Bodywise Recollection), the monk knows while walking, 'I walk',..." > > Section 375, Iriyaapathapabbam, Kaayaanupassanaa,Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam Mahaavaggo, Diighnikaayo. > > #100996 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Analytical study of 5 Khandhas, 12 bases & 18 elements sarahprocter... Hi Alex & all, Hope you're still around as belatedly, I'd like to add a few comments on this: #100582. I believe Nina added a couple, but I marked a few more which you might like to consider. Clearly, this is an instance where we'd be completely lost without the Abhidhamma (and commentaries), I think you'd agree:-)) --- On Thu, 10/9/09, truth_aerator wrote: >After reading many suttas (MN148, SN22.57, SN 35.197, Thig 3.2) where analysis into khandha, ayatana, dhatu was praised, I've decided to do a little investigation myself. ... S: Great! Glad to see your interest. .... >So I've made a certain cut outs to study, which I wanted to share with anyone interested. >Mind base (manayatana) , = all (89) consciousness . ... S: If we don't count jhana and lokuttara cittas, which make 121 cittas altogether. ... >cognizable base (dhammayatana) & cognizable element (dhamma dhatu) = 52 cetasika. ... S: 52 cetasikas + all 16 subtle rupas (i.e all rupas apart from the 12 gross rupas which are the 5 sense bases and the 7 rupas experienced through the senses) + nibbana (in context) ... Mind element (manodhatu), = 5 door advertance, 2 recipient citta. Mind consciousness element (manovinnana) = 76 consc. ... S: Correct (again, if we don't include jhana and lokuttara cittas)- manovinnana dhatu = all cittas other than dvi-panca-vinnanas (i.e. seeing etc) and 3 manodhatu cittas you refer to above (pancadvaravajjana citta and 2 sampaticchana cittas). .... >Sensation = vedana >The all 12 bases (ayatana): The eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and cognizables. ... S: 'Cognizables' is misleading. What is meant are subtle rupas, cetasikas and nibbana - all experienced through the mind-door only. ... >18 Elements (dhatu): Above 12 bases + 6 consciousness. .... S: We can't put it like that. The 12 bases consist of the 18 elements. There is no consciousness apart from those included in manayatana. [see 'Ayatanas' in U.P.] .... >Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. <...> >Seeing the appearance is mental reality, eye-consciousness, which is consciousness aggregate, mind base and eye-consciousness element. >Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral eye-sensation (cakkhu-vedana) is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable base and eye-consciousness element. ... S: You mean the vedana is dhamma-dhatu surely? Not eye-consciousness element. ... <...> >Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral ear-sensation is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable base and ear-consciousness element. ... S: Same again. any vedana is dhamma-dhatu. It is not ear-consciousness. Same for all the others. ... <...> >Bare mental cognition itself is mental reality that is consciousness aggregate, mind base and mind element. ... S: All ciitas which are not the panca-vinnanas and not the 3 in mano-dhatu above are included in mano-vinnana dhatu (mind-consciousness element), not mind-element. .... >Desire, dislike, greed or hate, Wisdom or ignorance is a mental reality that is mental formation aggregate, cognizable object base and cognizable object element. Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral mental sensation is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable object base and cognizable object element. ... S: All cetasikas are included in dhamma-dhatu (element of dhammas inc. cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana). I'm not sure if this is what you refer to here. Sometimes the English translations are confusing. ... ============ ========= = >Any suggestions, comments, critiques? ... S: Hope this of some use. I've just picked up a few minor errors as I read them, but mostly it was correct and a good, keen study of Abhidhamma. Look forward to more! Helps test out my understanding of the terms as well. So everything we take for being important are in reality, just these elements or the coming together of various ayatanas. No room for any self or thing in them. ... >I know that i've used a bit different scheme for primary elements of earth,water, fire & air. For example the source of taste, food contains not only hardness, cohesion & moisture, but temperature and it may be cooked or uncooked. ... S: I'm not quite sure where you're going on this one. Food, of course, is a concept, but yes, different kalapas consisting of different 'ingredients'. Look forward to more discussion. Metta Sarah ====== #100997 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 7:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 30-sep-2009, om 15:11 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > At the time of the Buddha, only monks had the leisure for such > practice. It is different now, especially in the "developed > countries" and > especially for retirees. ------- N: No rule at all. It depends on the individual's accumulations. For the monks there is a reason: the monk should not be attached to company and chattering. This is according to the Vinaya. In fact his style of life is like the life of an arahat. We cannot lead the life of an arahat as laypeople. Best is to develop understanding naturally of all that occurs in daily life, defilements included. If we think that there are rules it may easily lead to clinging to rites and rituals, wrong practice. Is there any obstacle to be aware now, even when reading or writing? I like to highlight Sarah's post just now: <"Thus, life goes on from moment to moment, until death. Life is only one moment of experiencing an object and then it is gone, forever." Usually, we're lost in concepts about the past or future and forget all about awareness and understanding of what is experienced now. It's a good reminder for us all.... We can see how the development of right understanding leads to less regret, less concern about the past or future and more contentment and calm at this moment.> Lost in concepts, true? 'I' am going to a quiet room, and who is thinking this? Thinking of the future. Why have regret about all the akusala that arises in a day. It shows what has been accumulated for aeons. How could we get rid of these within a short time, by just seeking for tranquil situations. These are situations, and it does not help thinking of them, or being after them. The object of satipa.t.thaana is not situations, concepts, but whetever is real at this moment, whether or not we are pleased with it. Nina. #100998 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana, anantara/contiguity paccaya and others conditions sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, --- On Tue, 22/9/09, sprlrt wrote: >Anantara/contiguity paccaya is one of the conditions that have generating capabilities only, they don't sustain co-present dhammas; while others, like hetu paccaya, have both capabilities, that of generating unarisen dhammas and that of sustaining arisen ones. I've grouped together some of the conditions with generating/janaka capabilities/ satti only] Alberto [PthA. 24. Paccayaniddesapaki. n.nakavinicchaya kathaa] Miscellaneus classification of conditions <...> ... S: Interesting! Do you now read the commentary to the Pathana in Pali too? Impressive:-) Keep sharing! Metta Sarah ======= #100999 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 7:31 am Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! szmicio Dear Suan > Please accept my apology if this omission caused any misunderstanding in the readers. > > 375. "Puna caparam, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vaa `gacchaamii'ti > pajaanaati,..." > > 375. "Again, Monks, as another method (of Bodywise Recollection), the monk knows while walking, 'I walk',..." L:so, "monk when walking 'comprehends walking'?" Of course this passage refers to 'minds of walknig'. When you get up from anapanasati, that you may refer it as 'good one' then what? you stil 'walking'? The minds of walking can be comprehanded as they are. This is the first noble Truth, everything else is just a dream. what you sugested Suuan, as so far it's a big misery of Self Idea. We live in a modern world, so we not always can grasp the meaning of Buddha words. Best wishes Lukas