#102200 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: another understanding / to Freawaru truth_aerator Hi Howard, Herman and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > Consciousness is > > conditioned by consciousness. > > > This last line has enormous implications, and as a general statement I > totally disagree with it. Firstly because nama is never apart from rupa, and > secondly something as a condition for itself makes that something it's own > cause, ie self, by another name: which would be a complete denial of DO. > > Cheers > > > Herman Hello Herman, I'd like to correct "Consciousness is conditioned by consciousness." to "present mental state is conditioned by prior volition. It is not unconditioned or causeless" . What do you think about that? With metta, Alex #102201 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: another understanding / to Freawaru upasaka_howard Hi, Frewaru - In a message dated 11/11/2009 5:16:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Consciousness is > conditioned by consciousness. This last line has enormous implications, and as a general statement I totally disagree with it. Firstly because nama is never apart from rupa, and secondly something as a condition for itself makes that something it's own cause, ie self, by another name: which would be a complete denial of DO. ================================ I'm not saying that the consciousness that is operative at a given moment is a condition for itself. Of course that is nonsense! What I'm saying is that the consciousness in effect at any time is a condition for future instances of consciousness. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102202 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:20 pm Subject: Re: another understanding / to Freawaru kenhowardau Hi Freawaru, ----------------- <. . .> KH: > > As I understand it, anatta means there is nothing other than nama and > rupa. F: > How does this agree with DO? DO describes nama and rupa being conditioned by consciousness and consciousness being conditioned by Mental Concocting and Mental Concocting conditioned by Ignorance. So neither consciousness nor Mental Concocting nor Ignorance and Wisdom are nama or rupa. Nama and rupa condition sense bases, but I never saw a sutta saying that namarupa conditions Ignorance. ----------------- DO is entirely about namas and rupas. Namas are mental phenomena (consciousness, kamma, ignorance, wisdom, etc ). Rupas are physical phenomena (sense bases, sense objects, etc). Every link in DO describes how these dhammas are dependent upon other dhammas. The part you are referring to describes how vipaka-namas and kama-conditioned rupas are dependent upon rebirth-consciousness. (Don't ask me to explain any more than that, it's over my head.) The important thing to know is that the Buddha categorised the entire, ultimately-real universe into just two groups: nama and rupa. ----------- <. . .> F: > Nama rupa constructs me, you, grasshopper etc. As long as there is namarupa those things (me, you, grasshopper) exist. ----------- When the required namas and rupas arise and perform their functions in the required ways, a grasshopper can be said to exist. It exists in the conventional sense of 'existing.' So we can say, without telling a lie, that a grasshopper does exist . We can also say that a flying purple elephant exists, but not without telling a lie. In the ultimate sense, however, a grasshopper is no more existent than is a flying purple elephant. Ultimately, there are only namas and rupas - arising, performing their functions and falling away. ------------------ F: > Just because one sees only electrons and protons when using a really good microscope does not mean that there is no car. ------------------ It could be argued either way. Some scientists maintain that, in the final analysis, the Laws of Nature are the only ultimately existent things. But electrons and protons are beside the point. Conventional sciences were never designed to teach the way out of samsara, were they? :-) ------------- <. . .> F: > Here you probably define self=personality? You see, in meditation one can really go down to the level where the conceptualisation happens. I have seen this so I know it exists. How can I define myself as those concepts I saw construed? It just makes no sense to me. Also, the personality changes moment for moment, it is not stable, I would be born many times a second. What would be the point of defining myself in this way? --------------- The trouble with meditation experiences is that they need to be explained. Religious meditators might explain them as encounters with various gods; atheist meditators might explain them as being at one with the universe. Buddhist meditators will explain identical types of experiences as being in some way related to the Dhamma. But which version of the Dhamma (Theravada, Mahayana , etc) and which understanding of that version, will they relate to? --------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > Ultimately, there no self, no walking, no standing - just dhammas arising and falling away. F: > This I agree with. But it is not that much of an insight. Some months ago my eight year old daughter said (while we walked next to each other): "Mommy, isn't is odd that my body walks all on it's own. I don't need to do anything." If that is an-atta it does not require eons of practice to understand it. ---------------------------- I would say your Daughter's experience was in the same category as a meditation experience - it needs an explanation and tells us nothing by itself . Anatta is just one of many possible explanations, and if there is wrong understanding of anatta then even that explanation won't be any good. To practice satipatthana, one needs to only to have heard the true Dhamma and to have extensively (and wisely) considered and discussed it with helpful friends. No meditative experiences are required. ----------------------------------- <. . .> F: > For example one has to know that in those times atta (Self) was used as a synonym for God. To use the term self as we use it today is misleading and not how the author of those texts intended it to be meant. ----------------------------------- The Buddhist Dictionary (by Nyanatiloka ) gives a definition that (as far as I know) is accepted by all recognised Pali scholars: "ATTA: self, ego, personality, is in Buddhism a mere conventional expression (voharadesana), and no designation for anything really existing. . . ." I'd better stop there before I break the "longest post" record. You will notice I have conveniently skipped over your request for textual quotes. Finding quotes is not my forte. :-) But the ones you were asking for bob up all the time in DSG discussions. Perhaps I could point some out for you when they do. I might just add, while I'm on the subject, that you will not find any quotes in the ancient texts giving instructions for formal vipassana meditation. There is no shortage of such instructions in modern-day Buddhist literature, but there are *none at all* in the original texts. Ken H PS: Admittedly there are references in the ancient texts to formal *samatha* meditation techniques but, even so, there is no suggestion that such practices could be controlled in any way. According to the Dhamma there are *always* only conditioned dhammas - never any controller. KH #102203 From: Herman Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: another understanding / to Freawaru egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/12 truth_aerator > Hi Howard, Herman and all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > > Hi Howard, > > > Consciousness is > > > conditioned by consciousness. > > > > > > This last line has enormous implications, and as a general statement I > > totally disagree with it. Firstly because nama is never apart from rupa, > and > > secondly something as a condition for itself makes that something it's > own > > cause, ie self, by another name: which would be a complete denial of DO. > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Herman > > > Hello Herman, I'd like to correct > "Consciousness is conditioned by consciousness." > to > > "present mental state is conditioned by prior volition. It is not > unconditioned or causeless" . > > > What do you think about that? > It is a much better formulation. But one should not exclude the fact that present mental state is conditioned by rupa. Cheers Herman #102204 From: Herman Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: another understanding / to Freawaru egberdina Hi Howard, 2009/11/12 > Hi, Frewaru - > You probably meant Hi, Herman. I wrote what you were responding to :-) > > In a message dated 11/11/2009 5:16:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > > > Consciousness is > > conditioned by consciousness. > > > This last line has enormous implications, and as a general statement I > totally disagree with it. Firstly because nama is never apart from rupa, > and > secondly something as a condition for itself makes that something it's own > cause, ie self, by another name: which would be a complete denial of DO. > ================================ > I'm not saying that the consciousness that is operative at a given > moment is a condition for itself. Of course that is nonsense! What I'm > saying > is that the consciousness in effect at any time is a condition for future > instances of consciousness. > I think it is important for the discussion to "decide" whether there can be any nama without rupa. This is from useful posts 28775. "The materiality dependent on which the > mind-element and mind-consciousness-element occur is a condition, as a > support condition, for the mind-element and the > mind-consciousness-element and what is associated therewith" (P.tn. > 1,4). If that is so, why is it not mentioned in the Ruupaka.n.da of the > Dhammasa.nga.ni (Dhs.583ff.)? Its not being mentioned there is for > another reason. What is that? Non-inconsistency of the teaching. It seems to me how one categorises stuff has major implications for how things are understood. The above quote seems to suggest that one should categorise inline with an existing understanding, not according to the nature of things :-) Cheers Herman #102205 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: another understanding / to Freawaru truth_aerator Hi Herman and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2009/11/12 truth_aerator > > > Hi Howard, Herman and all, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > Consciousness is > > > > conditioned by consciousness. > > > > > > > > > This last line has enormous implications, and as a general statement I > > > totally disagree with it. Firstly because nama is never apart from rupa, > > and > > > secondly something as a condition for itself makes that something it's > > own > > > cause, ie self, by another name: which would be a complete denial of DO. > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > Herman > > > > > > Hello Herman, I'd like to correct > > "Consciousness is conditioned by consciousness." > > to > > > > "present mental state is conditioned by prior volition. It is not > > unconditioned or causeless" . > > > > > > What do you think about that? > > > > > It is a much better formulation. But one should not exclude the fact that > present mental state is conditioned by rupa. > > Cheers > > > Herman Not all mental states are conditioned by rupa, only 5 sense consciousness and subtle part of mental object (which takes the memory of past 5-sense object). Abstract ideas, concepts, wisdom, delusion, sense of 'I' ness, are not physical objects. With metta, Alex #102206 From: Herman Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: another understanding / to Freawaru egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/12 truth_aerator > Hi Herman and all, > > > > > > > What do you think about that? > > > > > > > > > It is a much better formulation. But one should not exclude the fact that > > present mental state is conditioned by rupa. > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Herman > > > > Not all mental states are conditioned by rupa, only 5 sense consciousness > and subtle part of mental object (which takes the memory of past 5-sense > object). > > > Abstract ideas, concepts, wisdom, delusion, sense of 'I' ness, are not > physical objects. > > But what about mind-element? Cheers Herman #102207 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: another understanding / to Freawaru truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2009/11/12 truth_aerator > > > Hi Herman and all, > > > > > > > > > > What do you think about that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a much better formulation. But one should not exclude the fact that > > > present mental state is conditioned by rupa. > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > Herman > > > > > > > > Not all mental states are conditioned by rupa, only 5 sense consciousness > > and subtle part of mental object (which takes the memory of past 5-sense > > object). > > > > > > Abstract ideas, concepts, wisdom, delusion, sense of 'I' ness, are not > > physical objects. > > > > > But what about mind-element? > > > > Cheers > > > Herman > Hi Herman, all, As I understand it at least some part of mind-element is not physical - at least in aruppa planes. For example the conditionality for 5 aggregates is 1) nutriment (matter) -> rupa body 2) contact -> Nama (sensation, perception, volition) 3) rupa + nama -> consciousness. But, contact includes consciousness! With metta, Alex #102208 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: another understanding / to Freawaru upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Freawaru) - In a message dated 11/11/2009 8:14:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Howard, 2009/11/12 > Hi, Frewaru - > You probably meant Hi, Herman. --------------------------------------------- Yes, thanks! -------------------------------------------- I wrote what you were responding to :-) > > In a message dated 11/11/2009 5:16:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > > > Consciousness is > > conditioned by consciousness. > > > This last line has enormous implications, and as a general statement I > totally disagree with it. Firstly because nama is never apart from rupa, > and > secondly something as a condition for itself makes that something it's own > cause, ie self, by another name: which would be a complete denial of DO. > ================================ > I'm not saying that the consciousness that is operative at a given > moment is a condition for itself. Of course that is nonsense! What I'm > saying > is that the consciousness in effect at any time is a condition for future > instances of consciousness. > I think it is important for the discussion to "decide" whether there can be any nama without rupa. ------------------------------------------------------ Typically not, although Buddhist teaching does include a realm of experience that is bodiless. -------------------------------------------------------- This is from useful posts 28775. "The materiality dependent on which the > mind-element and mind-consciousness-element occur is a condition, as a > support condition, for the mind-element and the > mind-consciousness-element and what is associated therewith" (P.tn. > 1,4). If that is so, why is it not mentioned in the Ruupaka.n.da of the > Dhammasa.nga.ni (Dhs.583ff.)? Its not being mentioned there is for > another reason. What is that? Non-inconsistency of the teaching. It seems to me how one categorises stuff has major implications for how things are understood. The above quote seems to suggest that one should categorise inline with an existing understanding, not according to the nature of things :-) ---------------------------------------------------- If we only knew for ourselves what truly IS the nature of things! ;-) ------------------------------------------------- Cheers Herman ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102209 From: "philofillet" Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:15 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? philofillet Hi Alex > Question: Does one practice kaya-viveka? citta-viveka? upadhi-viveka while watching TV, cooking in a busy kitchen, shopping at the strip mall or visiting strip-club? > > Isn't there kama involved in desire to watch TV, shopping for things you do not really need, chatting at a busy restaurant (thats not required for living)? > > "Some people are afraid to watch TV, but now we are lost in the concepts with no awareness." > http://www.zolag.co.uk/phras.html > > > I like the quote by Phil: > "And as always I say that I think it seems somewhat contradictory for people to say that in this day and age people don't have enough wisdom to understand suttas on their own and yet can consider those arahant-while-cooking sort of anecdotes relevant.)" - Phil > > > I find it strange to insist that we can gain real insight, without hard practice in the comfort of our own homes, unlike monks of old striving for Arhatship and putting their life on the line for attainments. Ph: Actually, I was referring to some anecdote from the commentaries, maybe posted in a series that Connie put up about Bhikkunis(?). It was about a person who became arahant while baking something, or something like that. I don' think KS students aspire for aranthood in daily life (though I think they long for sotapanna by just listening to someone they believe to be sotapanna, thus the unwillingness to admit errors by KS) but I don't think there is any reason satipatthana couldn't arise in daily life. THe danger is that the modern person's deeply conditioned desire for results is sure to fudge it up, would have them trying to sort out this and that reality and think that thinking is satipatthana. I think we are better off with all our lobha to put it into formal satipatthana practice even if a) the practice as taught by Mahasi, for example, is not found in exactly the same terms in the ancient texts and b) we come to the practice totally fuelled by self-rooted desire for results, for comfort, for happiness and so on. Those self-rooted desires will be there whether we think we are all about "only dhammas, only the present moment" or not, so might as well put them to use where they will have a strong conditioning power to make us behave in ways that are conventionally wholesome. Jon once said to me that I have a "problem with satipatthana" and I think he's right. I doubt that for me at least there will ever be anything except thinking about subtly and perhaps increasingly fast and fleeting ideas about satipatthana. But that's OK. It will condition proper behaviour, and who knows faith in satipatthana as described in the ancient texts may return! At the very least I will lead a morally sound life in line with the objectives taught again and again by the Buddha to householders - a desire for a favourable destination in the next life! (And I don't even believe in that for sure, but thankfully have the ability to aspire to act, speak and think as though I do! :) ) Just a few random thoughts, Alex. I'm not quite as ambitious as you are on the path, but I certainly do appreciate reading your diligent reminders to us all! And I look forward to the day that I read here that you have decided to ordain! I want to be able to say "I knew Ven so and so back when he was known as Alex! :) Metta, Phil #102210 From: "philofillet" Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:29 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? philofillet Hi again all I'd like to take the following back: >(though I think they long for sotapanna by just listening to someone they believe to be sotapanna, thus the unwillingness to admit errors by KS) I think there are elements of truth here, but it's obviously not so blatant. My apologies. Metta, Phil #102211 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:53 pm Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Different inclinations to kusala and akusala have been accumulated. Accumulated tendenciesare lying dormant, but they can motivate the arising of kusala citta and akusala citta at any time when there is an opportunity. I this connection the term subconsciousness is used in Western psychology, designating that part of the mind which is not ordinarily known, but which shows itself for example in dreams. The term subconsciousness is misleading, it implies something static. In reality there are accumulated tendencies, but they are not static, they are accumulating from moment to moment; they are conditions for the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta later on. Each moment of kusala citta or akusala citta arising today is a condition for the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta in the future. Each citta which arises falls away, but since it is succeeded by the next citta without any interval, the process of accumulation can go on from moment to moment. There are different types of kusala citta and of akusala citta. It is important to learn more about them in order to understand ourselves, the way we behave towards others in action and speech, and the way we react towards pleasant and unpleasant events. It is citta which motivates good deeds and evil deeds. We read in the Middle Length Sayings (II, number 78, Discourse to Samaamaik) that the Buddha explained to the carpenter Pacakanga about akusala cittas and kusala cittas: And which, carpenter, are the unskilled moral habits? Unskilled deed of body, unskilled deed of speech, evil mode of livelihoodthese, carpenter, are called unskilled moral habits. And how, carpenter, do these unskilled moral habits originate? Their origination is spoken of too. It should be answered that the origination is in the citta. Which citta? For the citta is manifold, various, diverse. That citta which has attachment, aversion, ignoranceoriginating from this are unskilled moral habits The Buddha also said of skilled moral habits that they originate from the citta, the citta which is without attachment, aversion and ignorance. Thus, all evil deeds originate from akusala citta and all wholesome deeds originate from kusala citta. ****** Nina. #102212 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:57 pm Subject: Request For Dutiya Migasaala Suttam Translation Re:Satipatthaana while watching abhidhammika Dear Sarah, Nina, Uncle U Han Tun, Alex, Freawaru, Robert K, Phil, Howard How are you? Sarah, thank you for reproducing two exerpts from 'Pa.thama Migajaala Suttam' translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, a formerly Theravada monk. Pa.thama Migajaala Suttam is at Section 63, Migasaala Vaggo, Sa.laayatana Samyuttam, Samyutta Nikaayo. I wonder if you could also reproduce 'Dutiya Migasaala Suttam' at Section 64, which immediately follows Section 63, Pa.thama Migajaala Suttam. It is a very short Suttam, so please kindly provide the full translation. In that Dutiya Migasaala Suttam, we can witness how venerable Migajaala practiced samatha and vipassanaa to finally become an Arahant. I have no doubt about that you will like the Suttam very much. Thanking you in advance. Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Alex, SN35:63. (Bodhi transl): " 'Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus resorts to forests and groves, to remote lodgings where there are few sounds and little noise, desolate, hidden from people, appropriate for seclusion, he is still called one dwelling with a partner. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has not abandoned it; therefore he is called one dwelling with a partner.... <...> 'Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female lay followers, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller.' " Metta Sarah ====== #102213 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? szmicio Dear Nina, > > N: Sometimes the Path is sixfold, when the occasion arises for > > > abstention from either wrong action, wrong speech or wrong > > > livelihood. > > > > L: you mean eightfold path. No sixfold as far as I know. > -------- > N: The five factors plus one of the three abstentions makes six. When > the path is not lokuttara it is fivefold or sixfold. Only when it is > lokuttara all three abstentions arise togethet and it is eightfold. L: Now I know what you meant. But I think I found for now only 5-fold and 8-fold Path distinction. > All this makes a great deal of sense to me. The Path is not seen as > something that exists in a text. No, it arises from moment to moment > and all sobhana cetasikas that are part of it are in this way > accumulated. L: But when there is no samma-ditthi, right effort(samma-vayamo) and another path factors, cannot be accumulated. Also there cannot be right siila and right concentration. and even intention is not samma, without samma-ditthi. So no matter what we will do and think of siila, effort etc. The Path never be accumulated. What is right effort is not the effort of sweeping the floor. It's the effort when nama-ruupa is clearly distincted by panna. This effort is so natural when it appears, it has its object, nama or ruupa. I am very sure. All our thinking of Path like: "oh today I had a lot of good intention, that is number 2 of eightfold path, I developed a part of path today. That's one drop to development of right intention", it's just our dreaming. Without understanding the four noble truths, no development of right intention. Impossible. madness, the self everywhere. And so much more suffering. Siila now? So what? Just conditioned element that refrains. Not me. best wishes Lukas #102214 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Request For Dutiya Migasaala Suttam Translation Re:Satipatthaana while watching sarahprocter... Dear Suan, (Alex & all) --- On Thu, 12/11/09, abhidhammika wrote: >I wonder if you could also reproduce 'Dutiya Migasaala Suttam' at Section 64, which immediately follows Section 63, Pa.thama Migajaala Suttam. >It is a very short Suttam, so please kindly provide the full translation. ... Sarah: It's not quite as short for typing out as you suggest:-) I checked access, but no translation there, so I'll type it with some abbreviations and add my comments as I go along, which you're welcome to ignore, of course. As you say, it follows on from the first Migajaala Sutta and they make a great pair. Transl. by B.Bodhi 35:64, Migajaala (2): "Then the Venerable Migajaala approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him: 'Venerable sir, it would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief, so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute.' ... [S: "eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyya’’n - note, this is a formula commonly used to describe arahantship in many suttas. The Buddha has already explained to Migajaala in the first sutta that the "lone dweller" is the one who has abandoned craving as a partner.] ... " 'There are, Migajaala, forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. If a bhikkhu seeks delight in them, welcomes them, and remains holding to them, delight arises. With the arising of delight, I say, Migajaala, there is the arising of suffering.' .... [S: And as the Buddha made clear in the first sutta, such delight in what is experienced through the senses arises whether in the quiet, remote forest or the busy city whilst one continues to live with one's partner, craving.] .... " 'There are, Migajaala, sounds cognizable by the ear...odours...tastes...tactile objects...mental phenomena cognizable by the mind that are desirable......tantalizing. If a bhikkhu seeks delight in them,....delight arises. With the arising of delight, I say, Migajaala, there is the arising of suffering.' ... [S: In other words, all the attachment, all the delight that arises in the world, arises on account of the sense objects and concepts about them. Whether we lived in the Buddha's time without TVs and internet and in the quiet place or whether we live our present life-styles in a busy city, the Truths remain the same: the delight arises on account of the visible objects, sounds and so on experienced. Whether the visible object seen is in the forest or whilst watching TV, it's just visible object.] ... " 'There are, Migajaala, forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable..... If a bhikkhu does not seek delight in them, does not welcome them, and does not remain holding to them, delight ceases. With the cessation of delight, I say, Migajaala, comes the cessation of suffering.' .... [S: And as we know, the way to overcoming such suffering is the 8fold path, beginning with Right Understanding and accompanied by the other factors. As Alex has pointed out, we're not arahants. This is why the path has to begin at this moment, wherever we are, with the clear comprehension of visible object as visible object, seeing consciousness as seeing consciousness and so on in order for the idea of atta to be abandoned. If there is no understanding now of visible object, we cannnot expect the understanding to develop at another time, in another place.] ... " 'There are, Migajaala, sounds.....mental phenomena...that are desirable....If a bhikkhu does not seek delight in them....delight ceases. With the cessation of delight, I say, Migajaala, comes the cessation of suffering.' ... [S: Again, such delight only ceases through the gradual development of right understanding and its supporting factors. There is no other way.] ... "Then the Venerable Migajaala, having delighted and rejoiced in the Blessed One's words, rose from his seat, and, after paying homage to the Blessed One, keeping him on his right, he departed. "Then, dwelling alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute, the Venerable Migajaala, by realizing it for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life entered and dwelt in that unsurpassed goal of the holy life for the sake of which clansment rightly go forth from the household life into homelessness. He directly knew: 'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.' And the Venerable Migajaala became one of the arahants.' " ... [S: May we all learn to see the advantages of being ekavihaarii (lone-dwellers) rather than sadutiyavihaarii (dwellers with craving as partner), regardless of our circumstances, so that eventually we too may learn to "dwell alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute". So is there any understanding now that what is seen is just visible object? What is heard is just sound?] Metta Sarah ===== #102215 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Thu, 12/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: > "Some people are afraid to watch TV, but now we are lost in the concepts with no awareness." > http://www.zolag. co.uk/phras. html > ... A:> I disagree with that one-sentence quote and similar sentences found on this site. ... S: That's OK. Which part, exactly, do you disagree with? ... >Again, some situations are better for development of insight and some are not suitable. Hell beings cannot develop insight, even though they have namarupa appearing "now" and are very aware of the painful present moment. .... S: Awareness or aversion? Can they avoid such unpleasant circumstances when kamma has brought them about? ... A:> IMHO whenever one does not develop letting go, one is under the power of avijja. .... S: IMHO whenever there is the idea of "one" being able to do anything, it's avijja, not understanding at all. ... >> Anytime, anytime at all, there can be awareness of the reality >appearing, such as visible object, seeing, thinking or aversion, >such as when we read something we dislike. ... A:> Even in hell realms? ... S: Unlikely, just like in animal realms. This is why the human rebirth is precious, because it is the result of kusala kamma, there are wholesome roots and opportunities to develop panna. But it all depends on accumulations and whether we've heard the Teachings explained wisely. ... > SN35:63. (Bodhi transl): > <...> > 'Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of > a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female > lay followers, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and > their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? > Because craving is his partner and he has abandoned it; therefore he is > called a lone dweller.' " .... A:> That bhikkhu is an Arahant or Anagamin!, not a worldling! "craving is his partner and he has abandoned it" That means one is either Anagami or Arhat. ... S: So how does he become an arahant or anagami, a true lone-dweller without craving? It's not by searching for a quiet grove, but by understanding realities and the attachment which arises on account of them, wherever we find ourselves. ... >A: What were those forest dwelling monks thinking? Why let go of comfortable household and live in wild forests full of hardship and danger? ... S: Many, whom the Buddha addressed, thought that by virtue of living in such difficult circumstances and by giving up their comforts, they would become enlightened. The Buddha explained that attachment arises on account of what is experienced through the senses and that living in the wild forest without understanding of these various sense objects and other dhammas is of no more benefit that living in the comfort of the household life without any understanding. Just my comments and sharing of what I find helpful. Those one sentence notes I made a long time ago were phrases I jotted down because they made good sense to me at the time. No need for you or anyone to agree and each has their own way, as Ken O has been stressing. [I had many of these same discussions about forest-living with Victor before he ordained under TB, as I recall you could search under 'Victor sarah forest' and get several dozen more entries, I expect:-)] Metta Sarah ======== #102216 From: "freawaru80" Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: another understanding / to Freawaru freawaru80 Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Freawaru (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 11/11/2009 8:01:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > freawaru80@... writes: > > Dear Ken H, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > > > > As I understand it, anatta means there is nothing other than nama and > > rupa. > > How does this agree with DO? DO describes nama and rupa being conditioned > by consciousness and consciousness being conditioned by Mental Concocting > and Mental Concocting conditioned by Ignorance. So neither consciousness nor > Mental Concocting nor Ignorance and Wisdom are nama or rupa. > -------------------------------------------------- > That does not follow, Freawaru. The fact that consciousness, > intention, mental proliferation, and ignorance are singled out for special mention > as phenomena which condition nama and rupa doesn't imply that they are not > themselves nama. The ARE, in fact, nama. Analogical Note: Consciousness is > conditioned by consciousness. Surely that doesn't imply that consciousness > is not consciousness! > ------------------------------------------------- F: I agree that consciousness (vinnana) and Ignorance are phenomena (dhamma) but please give me a sutta reference that states them as nama/rupa. Vinnana gives rise to nama/rupa, nama/rupa arise because of vinnana, - that is all I ever found in the suttas. > Nama and rupa condition sense bases, but I never saw a sutta saying that > namarupa conditions Ignorance. > ------------------------------------------------ > Craving and attachment are nama, and they certainly condition > ignorance. The 12-link "chain" of D.O. is, in fact, a cycle. > ----------------------------------------------- Can you prove this statement? Is there a sutta that states "death gives rise to Ignorance?" Is there any sutta that closes your assumed circle? H: > ----------------------------------------------- > There are cars. But what is the nature of a car? Any car is just a > changing, conceptually- assembled collection of mutually interacting phenomena > that function together in a certain (well known) fashion - a mind-made > assemblage mistakenly thought of as a single, mind-independent, persisting > "thing." I do not understand this. My mind clearly tells me that as long as there is interaction between my body and the car the car is not independent of my body. And as body and mind are not independent of each other mind and car are not independent either. As to the "car" being mind made: that is what I have been trying to say all along. As long as we are absorbed in the personality all we are really aware of are mind-made things. Wether they were influenced by a signal from the external senses or not. F: > Here you probably define self=personality? > > You see, in meditation one can really go down to the level where the > conceptualisation happens. I have seen this so I know it exists. How can I > define myself as those concepts I saw construed? > ------------------------------ H: > "You" didn't see the construing. I saw the construing. I was merged with an impersonal state, though. Can't see this deep from the Freawaru personality. Look, there is no "I" in the sense you seem to think of it. There is only perspective/view. And whatever state one is merged with is experienced as my view, my perspective. > The construing occurred and the > awareness of the construing also occurred, and these were and are all entirely > impersonal. Sure. But just because one is impersonal does not mean that one cannot discern. > There simply is no construer and no observer. It is a > convention to refer to a certain coherent stream of interconnected mental and > physical phenomena as Freawaru, but it is only a convention. There is no identity > there - no self. I have to ask again: what do you mean by "identity"? What by "self"? Is the Impersonal witness an identity in your definitions? > What else should there be but dhamma? Except sunnata of course. Sunnata is > no dhamma. Sunnata is defined as the space in which dhamma arises and > falls. From just a theoretical point of view: what kind of "anything more" might > there be? > ------------------------------------------------------ > There is no "thing" called "su~n~nata." There is no emptiness-thing. That is what I just said. Sunnata is not a dhamma. Good that we agree here. :-) > It is just conventional speech to say that "you" can influence things. > It's okay to say it, but only if you don't take it seriously, only if you > fully realize that it should not be understood literally. What is literally > true is that various mental factors, most especially intention, do serve > as influencing conditions. Intention is kamma. You will have noted that kamma does not appear as part of the DO chain. It is here, by intention, kamma, that one alters the chain: "Ignorance gives rise to Mental Concocting, Mental Concocting gives rise to consciousness, consciousness gives rise to nama/rupa, nama/rupa give rise to the sense bases, the sense bases give rise to contact, contact gives rise to feeling, feeling gives rise to craving, Because of the extinguishing of craving, attachment is extinguished, Because of the extinguishing of attachment, becoming is extinguished, Because of the extinguishing of becoming, birth is extinguished, Because of the extinguishing of birth, old age and death are extinguished." > This I agree with. But it is not that much of an insight. Some months ago > my eight year old daughter said (while we walked next to each other): > "Mommy, isn't is odd that my body walks all on it's own. I don't need to do > anything." If that is an-atta it does not require eons of practice to > understand it. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Actually, it was a profound and amazing insight on your daughter's > part!! Thank you. I am a proud mother :-) F: > Definitely? That an-atta means one cannot control one's form (no vikubbana > iddhi), no ariya-iddhi (the power of controlling one's ideas in such a way > that one may consider something not repulsive as repulsive and something > repulsive as not repulsive). That there is no knower? > ------------------------------------------------- H: INDEED there is no knower! There is "the ability of him who knows" (annatavindriya) and it is different from "the ability of highest knowledge" (annindriya). It is a real difference, it is not just knowledge - it is a him who knows. This "him" is commonly called "knower". http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/indriya.htm F : > That nama and rupa condition Ignorance and Wisdom? Or worse, that > Ignorance and Wisdom are either nama or rupa? That one does not need to do kasina > practice to reach samadhi with the elements and gain the iddhis, those > accomplishments that show one is on the right path? > ------------------------------------------- H: > Some namas condition ignorance, and others condition wisdom! And > ignorance and wisdom are certainly namas. What else? Gods? LOL. Well, I guess we can call Ignorance=Mara and Wisdom=Manjushri if you wish. But, seriously, ignorance and wisdom are dhamma, but they are not namas. Nibbana is a dhamma, too, albeit an unconditioned one. Only sunnata is not a dhamma. > For example one has to know that in those times atta (Self) was used as a > synonym for God. > -------------------------------------------------- > No, that's not quite so. 'Atman' (= Pali 'atta') and 'Brahman' were > not synonyms. The first referred to the alleged personal self, and the second > to the alleged Cosmic Self (or God). The core of Brahmanism was the > claimed *discovery* that Atman = Brahman, or "Tat tvam asi" ("Thou art That"). I think this means something else. Atman=Brahman refers to the ability to merge with Brahman (Univeral mind). Buddha had this ability, too, btw, I recall a sutta that states that he is Brahma. As you see here http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/indriya.htm All Knowledge is reached on the Sotapatti-Fruition (sotapatti-phala), while the Knower is reached at attaining the Arahat-Fruition (arahatta-phala). Freawaru #102217 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja moellerdieter Hi Sarah, thanks for your answer .. you wrote : (D: may I ask for a little dance ...? ;-) ... S: Of course ;-) As you know by now, I'm seldom in tune with the music, usually running a few steps behind everyone else.... but you're used to that... D: never mind , we can always rewind the music ... ;-) S: ( D: there is hardly any doubt that the Buddha recommended the forest /remote dwelling , finally that was the place of his enlightenment. .. and there is plenty of evidence in sutta sources, but of course this recommendation was for those ready for it so that 'the forest would not take over ..'. It is the idle place a monk may choose to develop 'samatha and vipassana'.. .and as such the tradition of forest monks is not without reason higly praised .) ... S: Highly praised and recommended for those with little attachment to sense objects, who can live peacefully, contentedly, developing samatha and vipassana at such a time, in such a place. Like Maha-Kassapa and those who followed the dhutangas - He didn't recommend this for all monks or for any lay-people - this was the point of the comment. D: usually lay people don 't have such opportunity and therefore have not been addressed . ... S: I think it's more a question of accumulations and attachments than of opportunities. Many monks who had such opportunities were advised against it, because such a way of living is not conducive to calm and insight for most of us. I'd be glad to hear your comments, Dieter. D: Our whole life refers to accumulations (of kamma) due to our attachments , but such freedom of opportunity is limited for us lay people , isn't it? There were monks who were advised against it ('the forest may take over') , possibly those who prefer dry insight ... One needs to keep in mind that much of (wordly) attachment is already hindered by the rules of the discipline of the Order. In practise many of the monks who join a forest monastery have been ordained somewhere else , i.e. had some time of preparation. Regarding us commoners I think it depends as well on the ability to be a 'loner' .. S: ( D: I think the development of understanding includes as well taking care of the Sangha , in which each Buddhist has taken refuge as well ). ... S: What is the Sangha we take refuge in? From: SN55:1 Wheel-Turning Monarch, Sotapattisamyutta (Connected Discourses on Stream-Entry). B.Bodhi translates the relevant lines as: “He possesses confirmed confidence in the Sangha thus: ‘The Sangha of the Blessed One’s disciples is practising the good way, practising the straight way, practising the true way, practising the proper way.......” Here, ‘practising the true way’ (‘practiced methodically’/ ‘practiced insightfully’ above) are translations of “~Naaya-pa.tipanno”. The PTS Pali dict gives: ‘~nayapa.tipanna’ - ‘walking in the right path’ ‘pa.tipanna’ means ‘entered upon the path’, a ‘pa.tipannaka’ is path-attainer is one ‘who had reached one of the 4 supramundane paths of holinesss (ariya-puggala)’ (Nyantiloka). ‘~naya’ means ‘right or true’. S: In other words, in the highest sense, it refers to the wisdom of the ariyan disciples who've followed the Buddha's path. The bhikkhus and Sangha we respect are those who follow the Teachings as found in the entire Tipitaka. This is why we pay respect to the Sangha as a whole, not to individuals. D: good question , two further definitions, which point more clearly to the monasteries: Thanissaro Bhikkhu: The word Sangha, on the external level, has two senses: conventional and ideal. In its ideal sense, the Sangha consists of all people, lay or ordained, who have practiced the Dhamma to the point of gaining at least a glimpse of the Deathless. In a conventional sense, Sangha denotes the communities of ordained monks and nuns. The two meanings overlap but are not necessarily identical. Some members of the ideal Sangha are not ordained; some monks and nuns have yet to touch the Deathless. All those who take refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha become members of the Buddha's four-fold assembly (parisa) of followers: monks, nuns, male lay devotees, and female lay devotees. Although there's a widespread belief that all Buddhist followers are members of the Sangha, this is not the case. Only those who are ordained are members of the conventional Sangha; only those who have glimpsed the Deathless are members of the ideal Sangha. Nevertheless, any followers who don't belong to the Sangha in either sense of the word still count as genuine Buddhists in that they are members of the Buddha's parisa. Ajahn Brahm In the Tipitika, the recorded Teachings of the Lord Buddha, one finds two main focuses for the meaning of Sangha: the third part of the Threefold Refuge (in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha) and the third factor of the to-be -worshipped Triple Gem (The Buddha, Dhamma and Savaka Sangha). On odd occasions in the Tipitika, 'Sangha' is used to denote a 'herd' of animals (Patika Sutta, Digha Nikaya) or 'flock" of birds (Jataka Nidana), but groups of lay disciples, both men and women, are always described as 'parisa', an assembly. So what is the meaning of Sangha in the first main context, in the Threefold Refuge? Certainly, only an exceedingly eccentric Buddhist would take as their third refuge a sangha of birds (only "one gone cuckoo", as they say!). In fact, the Tipitika is precise in what is meant by the third refuge. In the Canon, on every occasion that an inspired person took the Threefold Refuge as an expression of their faith, it was either in the Buddha, Dhamma and Bhikkhu Sangha, or in the Buddha, Dhamma and Bhikkhuni Sangha. Thus, in original Buddhism, the meaning of Sangha in the context of the Threefold Refuge is unarguably the Monastic Sangha. The Sangha as the third factor of the Triple Gem worshipped by Buddhists seems to have a different meaning. It is called the Savaka Sangha (or Ariya Sangha) and is defined as those attained to any of the Eight Stages of Enlightenment (the 4 usual stages divided into Path and Fruit) who are "worthy of gifts, hospitality, offerings and reverential salutations, and who are the unsurpassed field of merit in the world". So, in the original texts, who are the "unsurpassed field of merit and worthy of offerings and salutations"?   S: (D: I am glad to be informed about such incidents in particular when a wellknown monk has been expelled from his group ( Ajahn Cha's forest tradition) due to his involvement of Bhikkhuni ordination and appreciate to discuss such issues .) DSG isn't limited to discuss Abhidhamma respectively Ajahn Sujin's Dhamma interpretation , is it? ... S: Of course not:-) D: thanks for confirmation .. actually such limitation is in your discretion B.T.W. meanwhile Bhikkhu Bodhi revised his opinion published only a few days ago and Ajahn Brahm provided a statement too if interested pls see : http://sujato.wordpress.com/ Nov 6 and 7 S: I think we can also reflect on the Vinaya or any aspects of the teachings helpfully. As I said, there is plenty in the Cullavagga and other parts of the Vinaya about disruptions to harmony and the settling of disputes. There is nothing new about any of this - plenty too about bhikkhuni ordination. I think it's incredibly difficult for a bhikkhu to follow the Vinaya and full Patimokkha as intended today. D: but - if I am right - not much is said about (settling of ) disturbance between Sangha and laity, and the Bhikkhuni ordination is such a special case. I feel reminded on a slogan which appeared in my environment some time ago : the religion is too important to leave it solely to the Church.. S: Happy to discuss any of the above further with you, Dieter. You always give me food for reflection and it doesn't matter whether we agree or disagree on all details. D: I don't think we are here very much apart in our thinking , Sarah . Thank you for your well considered response. with Metta Dieter #102218 From: "freawaru80" Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:48 am Subject: For whom are wake, dream and deep sleep viewed in the same way? freawaru80 Hi Ken H, Nina, Howard, Ken O and ALL. I think I understand now the origin of our disagreement. Let's look directly at DO: 1. avijia-paccaya sankhara Through ignorance are conditioned the sankharas,; i.e. the rebirth-producing intentions cetana or 'kammic-constructions'. 2. sankhara-paccaya vinnanam Through the kammic-constructions is conditioned consciousness. 3. vinnana-paccaya nama-rupam Through consciousness are conditioned the mental and physical phenomena nama-rupa. 4. nama-rupa-paccaya salayatanam Through the mental and physical phenomena are conditioned the 6 bases,; i.e. the 5 physical sense-organs, and consciousness as the sixth. 5. salayatana-paccaya phasso Through the six sense sources is conditioned the sensorial mental contact 6. phassa-paccaya vedana Through the contact is conditioned feeling And Cetana: 'intention', will, is one of the seven mental properties cetasika inseparably bound up with all consciousness, namely sensorial or mental contact phassa feeling vedana perception sanna intention cetana, concentration samadhi vitality jivita directing manasikara And Cetasika: 'mental things, mental properties', are those mental properties which are bound up with the simultaneously arising consciousness citta = vinnana and conditioned by its presence. As you see it does not agree with each other. In DO avijia gives rise to sankhara and sankhara gives rise to vinnana. But sankhara as a cetasika is supposedly arising simultaniously with vinnana. We can't have it both, either one is conditioned by the other or they arise simultaniously with each other. Let's look also at 4. nama-rupa-paccaya salayatanam Through the mental and physical phenomena are conditioned the 6 bases,; i.e. the 5 physical sense-organs, and consciousness as the sixth. Again: without nama/rupa arising there is vinnana as to 2. but in 4 it is only nama/rupa that conditions the 6 sense bases (including vinnana). It just does not add up. I understand now what some scholars say that Abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga are not correct. They disagree with the suttas, from a logical point of view. Or do they? As Nina said it might be a problem of altering definitions during later centuries. For example are we sure that the Buddha did not discern between citta and vinnana? Did he ever use citta as the third part in DO? According to some Theravadan schools there is alaya vinnana, a consciousness that transfers from one life to the next. What if this alaya vinnana is actually our sankhara vinnana, a vinnana that does arise from sankhara itself, not from or even simultaniously to any sense (including citta). When you look at this table http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Buddhist.Dictionary/table2.htm There are several kind of sankhara khandha referring to different levels of vinnana. If we simply include that vinnana is not arising on one level but on several Sankhara vinnana (alaya vinnana) is on a different level than the citta that arises due to sense contact such as the eye. I mean, seriously, you don't expect visible object to be a sankhara on the same level as the intention for rebirth? According to here: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Buddhist.Dictionary/dic3_s.htm#sankhara "For instance, within the dependent origination, s. is neither subconscious nor a mere tendency, but is a fully conscious and active kammic intention. In the context of the 5 groups of existence see: above I, 3, a very few of the factors from the group of mental constructions sankhara-khandha are also present as properties of subconsciousness see: Tab. I-III, but are of course not restricted to it, nor are they mere latent tendencies." To not discern between subconscious, unconscious and conscious as in the 5 groups of existance means to not discern between wake, dream and deep sleep. No wonder people are confused. For whom are these three states identical? So what is my point? I think Abhidhamma and DO simply do not teach the same thing. As you guys here say: things unheard before. So we should not expect it to agree with DO, formally. To compare it to the suttas only leads to confusion, because Abhidhamma does not lead to Enlightment in the same way as DO. Nor is it necessary for arahatship. On the other hand I suspect it is very usefull once Arahatship has been attained, or just previous to it, for full enlightment. In any case Abhidhamma requires not only a stable sati-sampajanna during wake but even during dream and deep sleep so that all these different states are viewed in the same way. This is beyond me at the moment. I leave you to it. Thank you all for these pleasant and enlightening discussions. Freawaru #102219 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Request For Dutiya Migasaala Suttam Translation Re:Satipatthaana wh... upasaka_howard Hi, Suan (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/12/2009 3:02:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@... writes: Sarah, thank you for reproducing two exerpts from 'Pa.thama Migajaala Suttam' translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, a formerly Theravada monk. ================================== I'm confused, Suan. Are you saying that Bhikkhu Bodhi has disrobed? Would that not be widely known and causing a great stir? I'm shocked! With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102220 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] For whom are wake, dream and deep sleep viewed in the same way? nilovg Dear Freawaru? Op 12-nov-2009, om 16:48 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > Or do they? As Nina said it might be a problem of altering > definitions during later centuries. For example are we sure that > the Buddha did not discern between citta and vinnana? Did he ever > use citta as the third part in DO? ------- N: ???? Did I say that? Nina. #102221 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: another understanding / to Freawaru upasaka_howard Hi, Freawaru - In a message dated 11/12/2009 9:12:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, freawaru80@... writes: Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Freawaru (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 11/11/2009 8:01:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > freawaru80@... writes: > > Dear Ken H, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > > > > As I understand it, anatta means there is nothing other than nama and > > rupa. > > How does this agree with DO? DO describes nama and rupa being conditioned > by consciousness and consciousness being conditioned by Mental Concocting > and Mental Concocting conditioned by Ignorance. So neither consciousness nor > Mental Concocting nor Ignorance and Wisdom are nama or rupa. > -------------------------------------------------- > That does not follow, Freawaru. The fact that consciousness, > intention, mental proliferation, and ignorance are singled out for special mention > as phenomena which condition nama and rupa doesn't imply that they are not > themselves nama. The ARE, in fact, nama. Analogical Note: Consciousness is > conditioned by consciousness. Surely that doesn't imply that consciousness > is not consciousness! > ------------------------------------------------- F: I agree that consciousness (vinnana) and Ignorance are phenomena (dhamma) but please give me a sutta reference that states them as nama/rupa. Vinnana gives rise to nama/rupa, nama/rupa arise because of vinnana, - that is all I ever found in the suttas. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: From MN 9, there is the following: "And what is mentality-materiality, what is the origin of mentality-materiality, what is the cessation of mentality-materiality, what is the way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality? Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality. The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called materiality. So this mentality and this materiality are what is called mentality-materiality. With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality. " So, the Buddha defines nama to include feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention. Contact is the coming together (or co-occurring) of consciousness, sense door, and sense object. --------------------------------------------------- > Nama and rupa condition sense bases, but I never saw a sutta saying that > namarupa conditions Ignorance. > ------------------------------------------------ > Craving and attachment are nama, and they certainly condition > ignorance. The 12-link "chain" of D.O. is, in fact, a cycle. > ----------------------------------------------- Can you prove this statement? Is there a sutta that states "death gives rise to Ignorance?" Is there any sutta that closes your assumed circle? -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, from SN 12.2, there is "From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth." (So, the steps preceding death are also given as preceding birth.) ------------------------------------------------------- H: > ----------------------------------------------- > There are cars. But what is the nature of a car? Any car is just a > changing, conceptually- assembled collection of mutually interacting phenomena > that function together in a certain (well known) fashion - a mind-made > assemblage mistakenly thought of as a single, mind-independent, persisting > "thing." I do not understand this. My mind clearly tells me that as long as there is interaction between my body and the car the car is not independent of my body. And as body and mind are not independent of each other mind and car are not independent either. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't get YOUR point! LOL! ----------------------------------------------------- As to the "car" being mind made: that is what I have been trying to say all along. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Interesting. I didn't get that as your point. --------------------------------------------------- As long as we are absorbed in the personality all we are really aware of are mind-made things. Wether they were influenced by a signal from the external senses or not. F: > Here you probably define self=personality? > > You see, in meditation one can really go down to the level where the > conceptualisation happens. I have seen this so I know it exists. How can I > define myself as those concepts I saw construed? > ------------------------------ H: > "You" didn't see the construing. I saw the construing. I was merged with an impersonal state, though. Can't see this deep from the Freawaru personality. Look, there is no "I" in the sense you seem to think of it. There is only perspective/view. And whatever state one is merged with is experienced as my view, my perspective. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: So you are speaking of an "I" as mere convention, in which case we agree. --------------------------------------------------- > The construing occurred and the > awareness of the construing also occurred, and these were and are all entirely > impersonal. Sure. But just because one is impersonal does not mean that one cannot discern. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is discerning, but no "one who discerns." ------------------------------------------------------ > There simply is no construer and no observer. It is a > convention to refer to a certain coherent stream of interconnected mental and > physical phenomena as Freawaru, but it is only a convention. There is no identity > there - no self. I have to ask again: what do you mean by "identity"? What by "self"? Is the Impersonal witness an identity in your definitions? ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is no witness. There are just experiencings. ------------------------------------------------------ > What else should there be but dhamma? Except sunnata of course. Sunnata is > no dhamma. Sunnata is defined as the space in which dhamma arises and > falls. From just a theoretical point of view: what kind of "anything more" might > there be? > ------------------------------------------------------ > There is no "thing" called "su~n~nata." There is no emptiness-thing. That is what I just said. Sunnata is not a dhamma. Good that we agree here. :-) > It is just conventional speech to say that "you" can influence things. > It's okay to say it, but only if you don't take it seriously, only if you > fully realize that it should not be understood literally. What is literally > true is that various mental factors, most especially intention, do serve > as influencing conditions. Intention is kamma. You will have noted that kamma does not appear as part of the DO chain. --------------------------------------------- Howard: It is not that intention is kamma. It is that kamma is intention! And intention DOES occur, after ignorance. ----------------------------------------------- It is here, by intention, kamma, that one alters the chain: "Ignorance gives rise to Mental Concocting, Mental Concocting gives rise to consciousness, consciousness gives rise to nama/rupa, nama/rupa give rise to the sense bases, the sense bases give rise to contact, contact gives rise to feeling, feeling gives rise to craving, Because of the extinguishing of craving, attachment is extinguished, Because of the extinguishing of attachment, becoming is extinguished, Because of the extinguishing of becoming, birth is extinguished, Because of the extinguishing of birth, old age and death are extinguished." > This I agree with. But it is not that much of an insight. Some months ago > my eight year old daughter said (while we walked next to each other): > "Mommy, isn't is odd that my body walks all on it's own. I don't need to do > anything." If that is an-atta it does not require eons of practice to > understand it. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Actually, it was a profound and amazing insight on your daughter's > part!! Thank you. I am a proud mother :-) ----------------------------------------------- Howard: :-) --------------------------------------------- F: > Definitely? That an-atta means one cannot control one's form (no vikubbana > iddhi), no ariya-iddhi (the power of controlling one's ideas in such a way > that one may consider something not repulsive as repulsive and something > repulsive as not repulsive). That there is no knower? > ------------------------------------------------- H: INDEED there is no knower! There is "the ability of him who knows" (annatavindriya) and it is different from "the ability of highest knowledge" (annindriya). It is a real difference, it is not just knowledge - it is a him who knows. This "him" is commonly called "knower". ------------------------------------------------ Howard: There is no "He who knows". That is an atta-view. An indriya is a faculty, not an agent. --------------------------------------------------- http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/indriya.htm F : > That nama and rupa condition Ignorance and Wisdom? Or worse, that > Ignorance and Wisdom are either nama or rupa? That one does not need to do kasina > practice to reach samadhi with the elements and gain the iddhis, those > accomplishments that show one is on the right path? > ------------------------------------------- H: > Some namas condition ignorance, and others condition wisdom! And > ignorance and wisdom are certainly namas. What else? Gods? LOL. Well, I guess we can call Ignorance=Mara and Wisdom=Manjushri if you wish. But, seriously, ignorance and wisdom are dhamma, but they are not namas. -------------------------------------------- Howard: No, they are namas. They fall under sankharakkhandha. -------------------------------------------- Nibbana is a dhamma, too, albeit an unconditioned one. Only sunnata is not a dhamma. > For example one has to know that in those times atta (Self) was used as a > synonym for God. > -------------------------------------------------- > No, that's not quite so. 'Atman' (= Pali 'atta') and 'Brahman' were > not synonyms. The first referred to the alleged personal self, and the second > to the alleged Cosmic Self (or God). The core of Brahmanism was the > claimed *discovery* that Atman = Brahman, or "Tat tvam asi" ("Thou art That"). I think this means something else. Atman=Brahman refers to the ability to merge with Brahman (Univeral mind). Buddha had this ability, too, btw, I recall a sutta that states that he is Brahma. As you see here http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/indriya.htm ------------------------------------------------ Howard: We are far apart on this. ------------------------------------------------ All Knowledge is reached on the Sotapatti-Fruition (sotapatti-phala), while the Knower is reached at attaining the Arahat-Fruition (arahatta-phala). ------------------------------------------------- Howard: ????????????????? ----------------------------------------------- Freawaru ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102222 From: "colette" Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's last word ksheri3 I'm outside the THERAVADAN DOCTRINE and I'm applying the Madhyamika concept of a single "individuality" for lack of a better word i.e. PAST DHARMA, PRESENT DHARMA, FUTURE DHARMA are all the same dharma this is no differentiation between the labels, thus exhibiting Shunayata, however in the case we are engaged in I had fun with your thought that the Buddha actually had this alleged "last word" which means that it must replicate the first word, no? Just a hypothetical reality. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Colette, > > --- On Sat, 7/11/09, colette wrote: > >Sarah, are you suggesting what the Buddha's first words when he immerged from the incubator? > ... > S: No! > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #102223 From: "colette" Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:05 am Subject: Re: For whom are wake, dream and deep sleep viewed in the same way? ksheri3 GOOD MORNING freawau80, good analysis! > Again: without nama/rupa arising there is vinnana as to 2. but in 4 it is only nama/rupa that conditions the 6 sense bases (including vinnana). > colette: may I expand upon your examination? 1) you declare that nama/rupa "Arise" which ALREADY PLACE IT IN THE POSITION OF NAME AND FORM since the NAME "nama" or "rupa" is an identifying characteristic of something which exists. Yes, hallucinations exist as real as phenomena exists. 2) you declare that "nama/rupa" "conditions" something "other", the 6 sense bases (including vinnana). My view is that it has already performed the "conditioning" aspect of it's existance simply by arising and being labeled something i.e. "nama/rupa". It seems easy to see Nina's perspective since she seems to have unlimited difficulty with others who have such pure ignorance to NOT BE ABLE TO CONCLUDE that citta and cetasika are such momentary things that not even a blink of an eye can keep up with the speed at which citta and setacitta. They are almost akin to the physics of witnessing a "nuetrino" or this supposed "god particle". Don't seperate the two: "conditions" and "arise" as you have used them/apply them. They are the same thing. I am very deep into a tantra and am amazed at the overwhelming amount of information that is continuously flooding my mind with such REFERENCES TO FOUNDATIONAL BUDDHIST DOCTRINE. Here, the problem immerges/arises that the potential for misconception is without merit and cannot be considered as an option or a possibility. IGNORNACE exists in all of us, even in the Buddha himself. To say that the Buddha's expositions are the limit to all knowledge is a profound display of IGNORANCE. The Buddha did what he did with what he had to work with/work from. The Buddha did not have laptop computers etc and so could not have concluded beyond what he had to work with. He dealt with things that we, in our supposed/alleged, civilization DELIBERATELY and INTENTIONALLY don't pay any attention to. As you say, it doesn't add up, and that's because it can't add up because of the diviations from the actual foundational material that was used/applied to manifest the actual WISDOM. ---------------------------------------------------- > According to some Theravadan schools there is alaya vinnana, a consciousness that transfers from one life to the next. What if this alaya vinnana is actually our sankhara vinnana, a vinnana that does arise from sankhara itself, not from or even simultaniously to any sense (including citta). > colette: zoiks, dangerous ground to be walkin' around in, it's like a mine field. Still, who, me, not partake of this outstanding analysis, PISHAW. Why is it that certain species of monkeys have so many identicle DNA parts that humans have? why is it that humans mimic, imitate, many animals in acts such as "socialization", behavior, etc? Is it possible that there are things we have yet to discover? Is it possible that through proper examinations of the original texts and practices, that we can then realize the deviations which we took and that which screw up our understanding of the doctrine/practices? First you have to be willing to admit that you and every other sentient being POSSESS IGNORNACE. <....> To become enlightened is to GO OUTSIDE the prison that maintains the minds of countless duplicated DNA gangs, fraternities/sororities, mobs, teams, etc. The only enlightenment that any person will find, WHILE UPHOLDING THE DICTATES OF A GANG, GROUP, MOB, ETC. IS THE ENLIGHTENMENT OF DELUSIONS, HALLUCINATIONS, etc. It will not be an enlightenment of what is real or reality. It will be an enlightenment that is subservient to the gratification and glorification of the HEIRARCHY which owns the robot, slave. You have many other beautiful aspects and points made in the work but I have no time left to partake of them, however, the main point that I wanted to make concerned your glancing notice of IGNORNACE that you allowed to slip by your analysis. If you gave IGNORANCE more cognition then maybe your analysis would have been different, maybe not, I just wanted to make reference to the fact that IGNORANCE clouded your vision. Thank you. toodles, colette #102224 From: "colette" Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Come inside the show's about to start" ELP ksheri3 Hi Herman, You're stretching it a bit, no? it is just that all answers will be like the > holding up of a mirror. NO PROBLEMS, however, you acquire the attributes of a "Taffy Puller" here and this suggests that you are doing business of the Boardwalk in Atlantic City N.J. USA. lol Stretching or pulling taffy, what's the difference huh. ------- The question is not intention-free, and therefore > the answer will only reveal the intention. > colette: how can the answer of another person reveal the intention of the person asking the question? As I said, stretching it a bit aren't we? It seems that the "projection" you impose upon another is a bit HOSTILE? for instance, you ask a question with the complete understanding that the question is asked because it has an INTENTION. Intentions, in this case, are OBJECTIVES, aren't they? You seem to be doing a disservice to the person you banty about trifles with since you are not accepting any responsibility for being a part of the discussion BECAUSE, as you made it clear, the person giving the answer will "reveal the intention" of the question being asked which is part of the original person making the querry, asking the question, interogating a prisoner, etc. <...> ------------------ > The reason I asked my unclear question was because it seemed to me that you > were writing along the lines of ''things are this way" or "things are that > way". Sorry for misunderstanding. > colette: Yes, you are absolutely correct. When I speak I make sure that the common denominator is that I am dealing with things as they are not as they are hallucinated. When you say that you thought I was dealing with a reality that suggests that "things are this way" or "things are that way" you are correct, THINGS CAN ONLY BE AS THEY ARE IN REALITY. Earlier today I was speaking w/ freaura80 or spelled something like that and I wanted to get into the concept of TRANSFORMING Consciousness but I'll be stepping into Ronald Epstein's territory here since I was using that phrase in the actuality of TRANSFORMING the ACTUAL CONSCIOUSNESS that a person has but I don't remember enough of his paper THE TRANSFORMATION OF CONSCIOUSNESS... to be able to confidently "stretch" his words as if they were taffy so I refrained from that BUT or HOWEVER both this post/reply and the post/reply to freaura80 would have ended up in the conclusion that the practitioner has to specifically transform their own consciousness. It's like a practice in THE GOLDEN DAWN that I ran into when, in like 1985, at the Quest Bookstore on North Avenue in Wheaton IL, I was begining to search for specific books on Tantra, PRANAYAMA, ETC, eventually I find that a specific practice is mentioned in Dion Fortune's works, I think, it could be Isreal Regardie however, the point was that they advised that the student/practioner INTENTIONALLY "LOOK AT THEIR HANDS" WHEN THEY ARE DREAMING, within the dream, so as to accustom themselves with the practice of maintaining a consciousness during acts such as sleep, that are not really sleep at all but are different types of consciousness. This technique was a lot easier to accomplish then the act of PRANAYAMA, let me assure you. The problem is that I found this act of "lucid dreaming" advised within the practices of DZOGCHEN yet the Golden Dawn advisers didn't give the potential student any warnings or advice, whatsoever, concerning this practice and why the student is performing these practices. I felt that WAS/IS VERY DANGEROUS however it also shows me that the Westerners are not very skilled at these practices and like Aleister Crowley, merely took a few scraps of Buddhist doctrine and tried to incorporate them into his BIZARRO-WORLD. My point is that CONSCIOUSNESS ALWAYS EXISTS 100% OF THE TIME. See Yoga Nidra, et al. It takes practice, however, to accustom yourself to this fact and to the characteristics which are part of that world, that reality, which, for the most part, the status quo has absolutely no concept of being an EXISTANT CONSCIOUSNESS OR CONSCIOUS REALITY. Now that you've picked up the gauntlet that I was considering to use in the case of freaura80, I now I'm relatively required to at least find R.Epstein's paper and try to skim over it tonight. And I know, for fact, that his stuff IS DEEP AND REQUIRES A LOT OF FOUNDATIONAL EDUCATION TO BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND IT, which I know I don't have since I don't even have a Bachelor's degree and so, this could really cause me some trouble tonight. In fact, I know exactly where it is since his stuff is in a seperate hanging folder directly behind the YOGACHARA hanging folders. Nothing for you to be sorry about since there wasn't any trouble at all. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi colette, > Sorry that I was unclear. You are exactly right in your last paragraph > regarding the validity of the question "what is there?" Not meaning to say > it is an invalid question, it is just that all answers will be like the > holding up of a mirror. The question is not intention-free, and therefore > the answer will only reveal the intention. > > The reason I asked my unclear question was because it seemed to me that you > were writing along the lines of ''things are this way" or "things are that > way". Sorry for misunderstanding. <...> #102225 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:01 pm Subject: The Noble Fruit! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Attaining 1 of the 4 Noble Fruits is Sublime! Insight culminates in the moment of attaining the recluses sublime fruit: A state tranquillizing all distress, its beauty from the Deathless draws... Its calm from lack of fuzzy worldliness. Truly a sweet and clarified bliss! It is a fountainhead, whose honey-sweet ambrosia emulates the deathless. Any being refining understanding, will experience this pure peerless bliss, which is the taste the noble fruit produces, right here in this very life! The flavour of the Noble fruit is Happiness, a blessing of fulfilled insight! Vism 702 <..> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <..> #102226 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] For whom are wake, dream and deep sleep viewed in the same way? nilovg Dear Freawaru, You bring up many points in a long mail. Long mails are a real problem for me, and could you please cut up the sections of your mail, so that your points can be reacted to one by one? As mentioned, Vis. CH XVII gives a detailed study of D.O. In some cases the preceding link conditions the next link by way of conascence, such as contact and feeling, in some cases they are not conascent but there are other conditions operating. It is necessary for the understanding of DO to understand different types of conditions and therefore the Visuddhimagga deals with all 24 classes of conditions before dealing with the links in detail. BTW please tell us more about your daugther, it makes Dhamma very daily. I liked her remark, children can be very keen and sharp. Op 12-nov-2009, om 16:48 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > As Nina said it might be a problem of altering definitions during > later centuries. For example are we sure that the Buddha did not > discern between citta and vinnana? Did he ever use citta as the > third part in DO? ----------- N: The words citta, mano and vi~n~naa.na are the same in meaning, they are the paramattha dhamma that is citta, consciousness. We read in the Kindred Sayings (II, Nidaana-sa.myutta, Ch VII, 61: However, in different contexts there is a differentiation of terms. The aggregate of consciousness is called vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, and it includes all cittas. For seeing-consciousness, the word cakkhuvi~n~naa.na is used. ----------- Nina. #102227 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Hi Lukas & Alberto, You were having a useful discussion on pakatuupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition). As usual, Lukas asked some deep questions. I wished to add a couple of comments on this difficult topic: >L: utu is climate, the weather and temperature around us, isnt it? or it's a concept on weather and temperature, that is a condition to some paccayaupanna dhammas by way of upanissaya paccaya? I am not sure, isnt the climate around us also a ruupa? ... S: Utu or tejo is temperature, experienced as heat or cold. We use concepts like weather or temperature, but the reality, the rupa is a condition by way of pakatuupanissaya paccaya for later cittas and cetasikas. For example, we experience a lot of heat or cold and it's a condition for aversion. ... A:> None of the 28 rpas can be pakatpanissaya paccaya, ... S: I don't think this is correct. I understand rupas (along with cittas, cetasikas and concepts thought about) can be pakatuupanissaya paccaya. .... >they are the paccanika of that paccaya (see K. Sujin 'Summary of the 24 paccayas'). What we conventionally call 'a person' (and any living being) is actually only the five khandhas: rpa, saa, vedana, and viana khandha. What we conventionally call 'the environment' (climate, plants etc.) is actually one khandha only, rpa khandha. .... S: Yes, so when the texts use 'person' or 'environment' in this context, I believe they're using such terms as a kind of shorthand for the actual realities - the cittas, cetasikas or rupas which are a condition here. ... >These are not rpa or any other actual khandha but mere concepts/convention s, which are one of the conditions, as pakatpanissaya paccaya, strong dependence on habits, .... S: I think that the concepts such as temperature, environment and people point, as you indicate above, to particular realities which act as conditions. However, in addition, as you point out, concepts are also included in pakatuupanissaya paccaya. For example, now as we reflect on ideas about the climate or the Dhamma, such kinds of ideas thought about now can be a condition for future cittas and cetasikas by way of this condition. ... >(but not as anantara and rammanupanissaya) , for the arising of (javana cittas accompanied by) pleasant or unpleasant feelings and for others paccayuppanna as well. ... S: Yes. For example, when you quote in #101851 "The environment/Food stuff/Dwelling is a condition , as strong dependence condition for [both] pleasant and unpleasant bodily feeling, and for the fruit [vipaka] of a [jhaana] attainment' and "Strongly depending on a pleasant bodily feeling/an unpleasant bodily feeling/the environment/food/dwellings an unarisen functional [of an arahant, jhaana] attainment arises.....etc" I understand it is referring to particular rupas in the first paragraph and to namas and rupas in the second paragraph acting as decisive support conditions for the jhana/lokuttara cittas referred to. I don't understand it to be referring to just thoughts about the environment or food acting as condition, do you? Metta Sarah ==== #102228 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhs. The arising of consciousness - 5 resulting from kamma sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, --- On Mon, 2/11/09, sprlrt wrote: >>S: Thanks, Alberto! Anytime you feel like give a one para simple summary at the start, I'm sure most people would appreciate it:-) >A:I've tried to write short intros as general picture of a specific Dhamma subject but most of the times the result was hopelessly blurred :-( ... S: Well, I'm sure that even this 'blurred' short intro is helpful for us all, like the one you give here:-)) A:> A couple more Atthasalini passages on the subject of the resultant mind-consciousness element functioning as registering (via saa, for future reference) the object (tadrammana) of javana cittas. ... S: At least it gives everyone an indication of the topic and a chance to stop reading here if it's far too 'over our heads'! The simpler, the better for most of us:). ... > The first mind-consciousness element [accompanied by mental pleasure] results [of kusala] in two instances: ... > - It can also results in any of the six doors [processes experiencing] a powerful object (balava rammana) as registration (tadrammana) [function]. > How is that? > Like when a boat crosses a strong stream which changes its flow for a while, running along its side before resuming its course. >In six door [processes], [the seven] javana [cittas] runs like this when a longed for, powerful object presents itself, and then, [javana] having run, it is the turn of life-continuum, but this citta [the mind-consciousness element] doesn't give in to life-continumm, it doesn't let go of the object of javana and holds on to it for one or two more citta-moments before life-continuum can resume [its course]. ... S: Yes as pt and I were discussing, there are the classifications of cittas and then those of the functions. Any of the eight maha vipaka cittas (results of kusala cittas) or the three santirana cittas (investigating cittas) can perform the function of registration. [Lots of detail in CMA for those interested]. Thx for your assistance and the extra detail. Metta Sarah ======= #102229 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:36 am Subject: Request For Dutiya Migasaala Suttam Translation Re:Satipatthaana wh... abhidhammika Dear Howard, Nina, Uncle U Han Tun, Alex, Freawaru, Robert K, Phil, Sarah, Jon, Ken O How are you? Howard wrote: "I'm confused, Suan. Are you saying that Bhikkhu Bodhi has disrobed? Would that not be widely known and causing a great stir? I'm shocked!" No, Howard, I was not saying that Bhikkhu Bodhi has disrobed. I only meant to say that he had renounced or forfeited his status as a Theravada monk in favor of siding with some monks advocating or claming re-establishment of Bhikkunii ordination with the help of non-Theravada bhikkhuniis. Put it another way, instead of those bhikkhuniis becoming Theravada bhikkhuniis, the monks who ordained them and claimed them to be Theravada bhikkhuniis have lost their own status as Theravada monks. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw #102230 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, --- On Mon, 2/11/09, Ken O wrote: >also I remember you ask me a question whether the 1st formless jhanas which take space is a concept, yes you are right. I still do not have come across any text on why space is classified as "unconditioned" . I find this subject fascinating ... S: And we can consider what the difference is between aakaasaana~ncaayatana (base of infinite space), the the first formless jhana with aakaasapa~n~natti as object and the space kasina as an object of rupa jhana. You quoted before: A:> Space Element, The Dispeller of Delusion I <357> In the description of the external space element, asamphuttam catuhi mahabhutehi <85.1> ("untouched by the four great primaries") should be understood as what is freed from the four great primaries begining with a break in a wall, a break in a doorway. By this is describe that space whereby, when doing preliminary work on it, fourfold or fivefold jhana arises. >K: explaining on the meaing of - according to Summary of Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary, Chapter One - para 30. Formless consciousness is fourfold by distinction of the four objects of space, etc... that should become its objects, and by the objects that should pass beyond, namely the kasina, space, consciousness, and its absence. For in due course, when it passes beyond the sign of the kasina that is the object of the fifth jhana by removing it, it takes as object the space that is obtained, then having passed beyond this, it takes as object the consciousness that occurred previously; ........ tomorrow again to type finish :-) ... S: I'm not sure "tomorrow" ever came :-) It's all over my head, but I understand that there is a distinction between (the concept of) akasa rupa as in space kasina and the akasa, 'infinite space' or 'nothingness' when there is no trace of the kalapas of rupas. I believe this may also be pointing to the two kinds of space. I'm just reflecting out loud. What do you think? ... >I also find another subject fasicinating, the mind door process succeed the sense door process. I also did not see that in the text, could you point to me which text pse. Thanks ... S: After a sense door process, there arise many bhavanga (process-freed) cittas and then always a mind door process. All the detail is in CMA or the Vism or Nina's ADL. Let us know if you can't find it. Perhaps I misunderstand your qu? Metta Sarah ========= #102231 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:27 am Subject: Dutiya Migasaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarahs Faulty Personal Opinions abhidhammika Dear Nina, Uncle U Han Tun, Alex, Freawaru, Howard, Robert K, Phil, Sarah, Jon, Ken O How are you? Thank you, Sarah, for reproducing Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of this Suttam. I have posted Dutiyamigajaala Suttam translation by removing Sarah's personal opinions (attanomati) interspersed between the paragraphs of the original Suttam. 2. DUTIYAMIGAJAALA SUTTAM 64. Atha kho aayasmaa migajaalo yena bhagavaa tenupasankami pe ekamantam nisinno kho aayasmaa migajaalo bhagavantam etadavoca "saadhu me, bhante, bhagavaa samkhittena dhammam desetu, yamaham bhagavato dhammam sutvaa eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyan"ti. "Santi kho, migajaala, cakkhuvieyyaa ruupaa i.t.thaa kantaa manaapaa piyaruupaa kaamuupasamhitaa rajaniiyaa. Tace bhikkhu abhinandati abhivadati ajjhosaaya ti.t.thati. Tassa tam abhinandato abhivadato ajjhosaaya ti.t.thato uppajjati nandii. Nandisamudayaa dukkhasamudayo, migajaalaati vadaami pe santi ca kho, migajaala, jivhaavieyyaa rasaa pe santi ca kho, migajaala, manovieyyaa dhammaa i.t.thaa kantaa manaapaa piyaruupaa kaamuupasamhitaa rajaniiyaa. Tace bhikkhu abhinandati abhivadati ajjhosaaya ti.t.thati. Tassa tam abhinandato abhivadato ajjhosaaya ti.t.thato uppajjati nandii. Nandisamudayaa dukkhasamudayo, migajaalaati vadaami. "Santi ca kho, migajaala, cakkhuvieyyaa ruupaa i.t.thaa kantaa manaapaa piyaruupaa kaamuupasamhitaa rajaniiyaa. Tace bhikkhu naabhinandati naabhivadati naajjhosaaya ti.t.thati. Tassa tam anabhinandato anabhivadato anajjhosaaya ti.t.thato nandii nirujjhati. Nandinirodhaa dukkhanirodho, migajaalaati vadaami pe santi ca kho, migajaala, jivhaavieyyaa rasaa i.t.thaa kantaa pe santi ca kho, migajaala, manovieyyaa dhammaa i.t.thaa kantaa manaapaa piyaruupaa kaamuupasamhitaa rajaniiyaa. Tace bhikkhu naabhinandati naabhivadati naajjhosaaya ti.t.thati. Tassa tam anabhinandato anabhivadato anajjhosaaya ti.t.thato nandii nirujjhati. Nandinirodhaa dukkhanirodho, migajaalaati vadaamii"ti. Atha kho aayasmaa migajaalo bhagavato bhaasitam abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa u.t.thaayaasanaa bhagavantam abhivaadetvaa padakkhi.nam katvaa pakkaami. Atha kho aayasmaa migajaalo eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto viharato nacirasseva yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariyam pabbajanti tadanuttaram brahmacariyapariyosaanam di.t.theva dhamme sayam abhiaa sacchikatvaa upasampajja vihaasi. `Khii.naa jaati, vusitam brahmacariyam, katam kara.niiyam, naaparam itthattaayaa'ti abbhaaasi. Aataro capanaayasmaa migajaalo arahatam ahosiiti. Dutiyam. Section 64, Sa.laayatanasamyuttam, Sa.laayatanavaggo, Samyuttanikaayo. Dutiyamigajaala Suttam Bhikku Bodhi translation supplied by Sarah "Then the Venerable Migajaala approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him: 'Venerable sir, it would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief, so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute.' " 'There are, Migajaala, forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. If a bhikkhu seeks delight in them, welcomes them, and remains holding to them, delight arises. With the arising of delight, I say, Migajaala, there is the arising of suffering.' " 'There are, Migajaala, sounds cognizable by the ear...odours...tastes...tactile objects...mental phenomena cognizable by the mind that are desirable......tantalizing. If a bhikkhu seeks delight in them,....delight arises. With the arising of delight, I say, Migajaala, there is the arising of suffering.' " 'There are, Migajaala, forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable..... If a bhikkhu does not seek delight in them, does not welcome them, and does not remain holding to them, delight ceases. With the cessation of delight, I say, Migajaala, comes the cessation of suffering.' " 'There are, Migajaala, sounds.....mental phenomena...that are desirable....If a bhikkhu does not seek delight in them....delight ceases. With the cessation of delight, I say, Migajaala, comes the cessation of suffering.' "Then the Venerable Migajaala, having delighted and rejoiced in the Blessed One's words, rose from his seat, and, after paying homage to the Blessed One, keeping him on his right, he departed. "Then, dwelling alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute, the Venerable Migajaala, by realizing it for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life entered and dwelt in that unsurpassed goal of the holy life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from the household life into homelessness. He directly knew: 'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.' And the Venerable Migajaala became one of the arahants.' " Section 64, Sa.laayatanasamyuttam, Sa.laayatanavaggo, Samyuttanikaayo. I discovered that a very important Pali phrase (nacirasseva) in the last paragraph of the above translation has been left un-translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi or its translation being omitted by Sarah perhaps as a typing error. If the translation of that Pali phrase were present, the following personal opinion of Sarah or of Bhikkhu Bodhi is wrong. ________________________________________________ [S: "eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyya’’n - note, this is a formula commonly used to describe arahantship in many suttas. The Buddha has already explained to Migajaala in the first sutta that the "lone dweller" is the one who has abandoned craving as a partner.] ___________________________________________________ Best wishes Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #102232 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:46 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Akusala can be described as an unhealthy state of mind, as unskilled, blameworthy, faulty, unprofitable, as having unhappy results. Kusala can be described as a healthy state of mind, as skilful, faultless, profitable, as having happy results. We read in the above quoted sutta that the citta is manifold, various, diverse. Akusala citta with attachment is quite different from kusala citta with generosity. What types of reality are attachment and generosity? Are they cittas or are they other types of reality? They are mental qualities, mental factors which can accompany citta. Attachment is an unwholesome mental quality, a defilement, whereas generosity is a wholesome mental quality. Citta can think, motivate actions or speech for example, with attachment, with anger, with generosity, with compassion. There is only one citta at a time, but it is accompanied by several mental factors or mental co-adjuncts, and these condition the citta to be so various. Greed, avarice, anger, jealousy or conceit are unwholesome mental factors which can accompany akusala citta. Generosity, loving-kindness, compassion or wisdom are wholesome mental factors which can accompany kusala citta. The mental factors which accompany citta in various combinations arise and fall away together with the citta. The commentary to the first book of the Abhidhamma, the Expositor (I, Part II, Chapter I, 67), uses a simile of the king and his retinue. Just as the king does not come without his attendants, the citta does not arise alone but is accompanied by several mental factors. As to the cittas which arise all the time in daily life, it can be said that citta is the chief, the principal, in knowing the object, and that the mental factors assist the citta. The citta which thinks, for example with generosity, is the chief in knowing the object, and generosity assists the citta to think in a wholesome way. The citta which thinks with jealousy is the chief in knowing the object, and jealousy assists the citta to think in an unwholesome way. ***** Nina. #102233 From: "freawaru80" Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] For whom are wake, dream and deep sleep viewed in the same way? freawaru80 Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Freawaru? > > Op 12-nov-2009, om 16:48 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > > > Or do they? As Nina said it might be a problem of altering > > definitions during later centuries. For example are we sure that > > the Buddha did not discern between citta and vinnana? Did he ever > > use citta as the third part in DO? > ------- > N: ???? > Did I say that? > Nina. > > If I have misunderstood you I apologise. But if I recall rightly you talked about "samadhi in a wider sense" being used in Abhidhamma than in the suttas. And as Abhidhamma is of later origin a temporal discrepancy is the most plausible reason for altering the definition (happens all the time in languages after all). Freawaru #102234 From: "freawaru80" Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] For whom are wake, dream and deep sleep viewed in the same way? freawaru80 Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > As mentioned, Vis. CH XVII gives a detailed study of D.O. In some > cases the preceding link conditions the next link by way of > conascence, such as contact and feeling, in some cases they are not > conascent but there are other conditions operating. It is necessary > for the understanding of DO to understand different types of > conditions and therefore the Visuddhimagga deals with all 24 classes > of conditions before dealing with the links in detail. > Yes, I read it. But there are some logical lapses there if you ask me. Some are pointed out by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu in his book "Practical Dependent Origination". We also see in the Visuddhimagga itself that at the time it was written there was by no means an agreement regarding it's interpretation and Ven. Buddhaghosa simply wrote down the version he found plausible and gave arguments for it and arguments against it. So by no means DO is easy to understand. One problem I see with the Abhidhamma is the assumed simultaneousness. The sentences in DO in the suttas have always the same logical structure: "X gives rise (paccaya) to Y" (or "through X are conditioned (paccaya) the Y", http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Buddhist.Dictionary/dic3_p.htm ) Now Abhidhamma assumes that this refers to a simultaneous arising not a temporal separated one. But if we assume this for, say, vinnana and nama/rupa, it must be also so for birth and death, because in DO there is not logical difference regarding them, they all can be substituted into X or Y. So if we follow Abhidhamma we have the fact that not only six sense sources and contact arise simultaniously but also birth and death (aging, suffering, etc) arise simultaneously - which completely disagrees with the three lives interpretation of Visuddhimagga, btw. In Visuddhimagga it is assumed that the Ignorance two lives ago lead to the previous birth, and simultaneously to the previous birth there is again Ignorance but not death - completely disregarding the logical grammatical structure of DO, either. At the moment I see several options to explain this diversion from our experience (namely from the observation that birth comes before aging and death): 1) The assumption of simultaneousness is wrong. 2) Birth and Death do not refer to physical birth and death. Buddhadhasa Bhikkhu gives an alternative interpretation (to which I do not agree, either, btw). 3) Our experience of a temporal discrepancy between birth, aging and death is not the perspective taken by the Tataghata. Let's look a bit more deeply at 3): In theory it is quite possible that the Tataghata has the perspective of timelessness. Meaning all dhamma at all times and space can be observed simultaniously. I have no problem with such an eternal point of view, outside spacetime, such a kind of "hyperspace" we find in many science fiction. It also agrees with meditational experience namely that when one concentrates time seems to move more slowly, aka one sees everything in slow motion. Maybe it is possible to slow this down to a point where time does not change any more and then one switches to that eternal point of view of simultaneousness: Supramundane right view. But that is not what Buddhaghosa mentions. Nor is it mentioned in Abhidhamma as far as I know. Nowhere is a perspective external to spacetime mentioned or thought through theoretically. So in both (Abhidhamma and Visudhimagga) we have the flaw that the theories do not just disagree with each other but are are even self-inconsistent regarding their interpretation of DO. The reason I cannot accept either the Visuddhimagga interpretation of DO nor the Abhidhammic one is that whatever statement one makes regarding nama/rupa and it's connection to vinnana and ayatana also has to be true for Birth (jati), Becoming (bhava) and Death,etc (jara-marana). And neither interpretation provides this. It is still as during the time of Buddhaghosa: DO remains a mystery noone penetrates - so there are just lots of arguing and disagreement and speculation, no truth. Freawaru #102235 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:34 am Subject: Unpleasnt feeling while dying szmicio Hi friends, Today I was sitting, when I felt some pain in my cheast and then I feel like sick and very unconfortable. I was frighten a bit. And I sit and feel very bad. How to deal with such feelings, when you feel like dying? best wishes Lukas #102236 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangha politics in Thailand ashkenn2k Dear Herman there are some matters are not for people like me to say any opinoin, it is only for Buddha to judge. In your context, we still treat all beings with loving kindness. I could ask them to stop, but if they continue, I have to let them be. Just like Buddha also cannot stop a war that decimate the clan he is born from. We cannot tell people what to do, at least we can restrain ourselves. When we condemn people, it is us that create the dosa. Let me quote from Perfections pg 98 When someone has done wrong, he is likely to be blamed by society. If we believe we should join in judging the person and blaming him time again, the citta is aksuala... cheers Ken O > >From: Herman >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, 10 November 2009 7:35:19 >Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangha politics in Thailand > > >Hi Ken O, > >2009/11/9 Ken O > >> Dear Herman >> >> I have to make clear, firstly, different context. > >Thank you for clarifying. > >> For the example below, I will call the police to stop them. Most >> importanly, I have loving kindness towards them especially towards those who >> cause the aksuala actions. >> >> > >Would the following example be closer to the context in which we are >discussing? > >You are walking down the street, and you see a group of police treating a >person, a woman, very badly. What do you do? > >Cheers > >Herman > #102237 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some thoughts on Jhana ashkenn2k Dear Alex >Understanding dhammas as anicca, dukkha, anatta conditions nibbida. Then nibbida conditions viraga. KO: To me, this is extreme as such analogy is not beneficial. > >Seeing things as they are has samadhi as proximate condition. Thriugh samadhi the subjective misinterpretations caused by 5 hindrances are removed. Then when the enemy is knocked out, citta does all the work and nana can arise. > >This is an important aspect of meditation, to set the causes for wisdom by removing obstructions to "seeing as it is". As long as 5 hindrances are there, one does NOT "see things are they are". One sees things as hindrances want us to "see". KO: I felt there is no point to further discuss on this as it will end up you said meditation is the best way and I will say right understanding is most impt Cheers Ken O #102238 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known ashkenn2k Dear Herman H: But why use the same word rupa to describe both what is experienced, and what is not experienced? KO: To me it is important to know between mentality and material. Rupa has the same characteristics whether it is internal or external. Just like heat is the same whether it is experience by us or not experience by us. Also hotness felt by someone is the same felt by another, there cannot be any difference in the characteristics of the temperature rupa felt by body sense citta arisen due to kamma. But during the javana process it could be different between two persons, some people may like hot while others may like cold. There is the difference but characteritistic are the same for the rupa. Cheers Ken O #102239 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying ashkenn2k Dear Lukas understand your pain as in the three characteristics. Easier said than done as during pain, we could so immerse in it that we forget actually it is not self. Bear with it, understand it, that is the only way I felt to deal with such feelings. Cheers Ken O >> >Hi friends, >Today I was sitting, when I felt some pain in my cheast and then I feel like sick and very unconfortable. I was frighten a bit. And I sit and feel very bad. How to deal with such feelings, when you feel like dying? > >best wishes >Lukas > > #102240 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:55 am Subject: Re: Some thoughts on Jhana truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > >Understanding dhammas as anicca, dukkha, anatta conditions nibbida. Then nibbida conditions viraga. > > KO: To me, this is extreme as such analogy is not beneficial. > > > > >Seeing things as they are has samadhi as proximate condition. Thriugh samadhi the subjective misinterpretations caused by 5 hindrances are removed. Then when the enemy is knocked out, citta does all the work and nana can arise. > > "...concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html With metta, Alex #102241 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Defecating Formally --- Enter The Abhidhammika 4! ashkenn2k Dear Freewaru > That is not my point. You said that an-atta means that one cannot alter one's form and I said this cannot be because with the vikubbana iddhi one can indeed alter one's form. Your definition of an-atta leads to an inconsistency with other suttas and thus the definition has to be incorrect. KO: Even if we have many magical powers, they still dont belong to you. We still cannot alter the characteristic of hardness, temperature etc. Do not be decieved by rupas conditioned by jhana attainments and the mundane direct knowledge. >Exactly. Does not even take a Buddha to be able to control one's form. > KO: Your tenant is basically you could control our forms, I respect your views but I do not share this view. >But how can one understand Abhidhamma correctly if one's conclusions stand in discrepancy with Dhamma? If one comes to conclusions such as form cannot be controled? > KO: As much as I ask dinosaurs to refrain from witch hunting, I felt you should also refrain from such actions. You could ask question about dhamma and Abhidhamma, I am most happy to help to explain but when you questioned the truthfulness of Abhidhamma, then to me this is not beneficial. Dhamma is friendly and respectful dicussion. It is not saying you or I are not following the dhamma just because our interpretations are different. You could quote countless of suttas so could we. To me this would never be beneficial and only brings more aksuala speech. With metta Ken O #102242 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Request For Dutiya Migasaala Suttam Translation Re:Satipatthaana wh... upasaka_howard Hi, Suan - In a message dated 11/13/2009 3:38:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@... writes: Dear Howard, Nina, Uncle U Han Tun, Alex, Freawaru, Robert K, Phil, Sarah, Jon, Ken O How are you? Howard wrote: "I'm confused, Suan. Are you saying that Bhikkhu Bodhi has disrobed? Would that not be widely known and causing a great stir? I'm shocked!" No, Howard, I was not saying that Bhikkhu Bodhi has disrobed. I only meant to say that he had renounced or forfeited his status as a Theravada monk in favor of siding with some monks advocating or claming re-establishment of Bhikkunii ordination with the help of non-Theravada bhikkhuniis. Put it another way, instead of those bhikkhuniis becoming Theravada bhikkhuniis, the monks who ordained them and claimed them to be Theravada bhikkhuniis have lost their own status as Theravada monks. --------------------------------------- I see. Thanks. I misunderstood. ------------------------------------- Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102243 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some thoughts on Jhana ashkenn2k Dear Alex I must apologise. I misread on the word you wrote viraga which I thougt I read as viagra which a medicine for men potency. When I saw this email, I realise you are saying viraga Nibbana does not condition anything, it is the unconditonal, the final refuge. Viraga has two meaning according to the Commentary (i) momentary destruction of phenoma or (2) the absolute "fading away". i.e. Nibbana (Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka). Concentration is the supporting conditon for the knowledge and vision of things but is not knowlegde itself. Just like ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations but these are two different things. When Buddha describe right concentration, it could be mundane or supramundane, in the second sutta quote, it is supramundane if I am not wrong. Right Concentraton in mundane is right only when panna arise. Cheers Ken O #102244 From: "colette" Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some thoughts on Jhana ksheri3 Good Morning Ken O, "is not beneficial"? Beneficial to who? Maybe the application of analogy is extremely beneficial to Alex so that he can begin to grasp ULTIMATE TRUTHS?While it may be anoying or bothersome to you it is possible that his applications are beneficial to him and are what he needs at this moment in his study/practice. I'll be the first to admit that minutia and trivia are the most aggrivating and frustrating characteristics that most people have and exhibit, HOWEVER, that is "their problem", "their condition", "their existance", AND SO, knowing this human characteristic within/part of OTHERS I continue with my study and associating/interacting with them. Am I to isolate myself in a prison or a "monk's cell" (both prison and monk's cell are the same word and the same conditions therefore are interchangeable) so that my SOLITARY CONFINEMENT be the entirety of EXISTANCE and/or REALITY? I think not. Even my greatest enemy is worthy of my greatfulness BECAUSE without them, my greatest enemy, then there would be things that I could never had witnessed or experienced. Their hatred is a benefit to me, no? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > >Understanding dhammas as anicca, dukkha, anatta conditions nibbida. Then nibbida conditions viraga. > #102245 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 11/13/2009 8:35:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, szmicio@... writes: Hi friends, Today I was sitting, when I felt some pain in my cheast and then I feel like sick and very unconfortable. I was frighten a bit. And I sit and feel very bad. How to deal with such feelings, when you feel like dying? ---------------------------------------------- By "sitting" I presume you are referring to meditating. It seems to me that from the experience alone there is no way to determine what was actually going on. Several possibilities occur to me: The first is that you might have been experiencing an actual medical problem, and I think it would be prudent to have a check-up, at least if there is a repetition of that event. Another possibility is simply uncomfortable gas. (Had you eaten shortly before meditating or eaten something spicy recently?) Another possibility that occurs to me is that subliminal "stresses" might have come to the surface during the sitting, expressed both physically and emotionally. If your doctor determines that there is no problem, I would simply see to it that you do nothing to lead to gastric distress while sitting, and other than that, whatever arises while meditating other than the central meditation object, just observe it with as much calm and detachment as possible, let go of it (i.e., release your attention from it), relax the body and mind, and return to regular meditating, whatever form that might take. (I don't know what your meditation practice is.) --------------------------------------------------- best wishes Lukas ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102246 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] For whom are wake, dream and deep sleep viewed in the same way? nilovg Dear Freawaru, Op 13-nov-2009, om 11:07 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > If I have misunderstood you I apologise. But if I recall rightly > you talked about "samadhi in a wider sense" being used in > Abhidhamma than in the suttas. And as Abhidhamma is of later origin > a temporal discrepancy is the most plausible reason for altering > the definition (happens all the time in languages after all). ------- N: In a wider sense: concentration, ekaggata cetasika, also called samaadhi, arises with each citta and performs its function of focussing on one object. It can be kusala, akusala or neither. There is also right concentration, sammaasamaadhi, and in the suttas often explained under the aspect of jhaana, as Alex just quotes. Then there is sammaasamaadhi as factor of the eightfold Path. It assists right understanding to focus on one naama or ruupa, the reality appearing at this moment. ------- Nina. #102247 From: "freawaru80" Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] For whom are wake, dream and deep sleep viewed in the same way? freawaru80 Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > BTW please tell us more about your daugther, it makes Dhamma very > daily. I liked her remark, children can be very keen and sharp. Hmm, maybe you will like this story: Some time ago. My daughter just had learned a bit to crochet and proudly wanted to show her first piece to her friend. Her friend was indeed interested and tried to take it out of her hand to get a better view but my daughter didn't want to let go and as these kind of things go with children: it riped apart. My daughter was shocked, cried, then angry and run to her room and closed the door to let noone in. When she finally let me in I found her in tears of anger and disappointment. She told me what had happened and that she would never play with this friend again and never, ever, crochet again. At first I tried to soothe her, telling her that her friend surely didn't do it on purpose, that it was due to her own not letting go that the piece broke and that she could crochet it again. Didn't work of course. She stayed angry. Then I tried another approach: I asked her to describe how she felt and she reflected on her anger. I asked her if she liked to feel this way - she said "no!", angrily. Then I said: "that is strange. I enjoy being angry, it is so amusing to see how illogical my mind behaves during anger, completely different than normal." That made her stop. She really stoped. Her tears gone, I saw how she looked inward, focusing on what was there inside her mind to see what I meant. And suddenly she laughed from all her heart. After a few moments of laughter the tears came again, and half angry, half laughing she told me: "Okay, mommy, I will play with her again - but never I will crochet again anything." "Of course not, honey" I told her, "never, ever, again." Five minutes later I found her teaching crocheting to her friend. Freawaru #102248 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit D.O., Vis. Ch XVII. was: For whom are wake nilovg Dear freawaru, Op 13-nov-2009, om 12:53 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > The reason I cannot accept either the Visuddhimagga interpretation > of DO nor the Abhidhammic one is that whatever statement one makes > regarding nama/rupa and it's connection to vinnana and ayatana also > has to be true for Birth (jati), Becoming (bhava) and Death,etc > (jara-marana). And neither interpretation provides this. ------- N: In conventional sense death is the end of a lifespan. After that,not at the same time, there is rebirth into a new existence. Rebirth- consciousness succeeds the dying-consciousness of the preceding life and it may arise in a different plane of existence. The new birth marks a change. In the ultimate sense there is birth and death at each moment of citta: citta arises and then falls away. I quote some parts of my study of Vis. Ch XVII: Ignorance is not understanding the characteristics of realities, not understanding them as impermanent and non-self. This pertains to any reality appearing now, such as seeing, seeing or attachment. It is hard to realize them as they really are, but a beginning can be made in understanding the characteristic of nama that experiences an object and of rupa that does not know anything.> A good idea to go over each link, a little at a time? I can quote some part from my studies each time. Nina. #102249 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 12-nov-2009, om 10:38 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > But when there is no samma-ditthi, right effort(samma-vayamo) and > another path factors, cannot be accumulated. Also there cannot be > right siila and right concentration. and even intention is not > samma, without samma-ditthi. ------- N: I think we have to make a distinction here. Sammaa is kusala, it can be of other levels of kusala. There can be sammaa samaadhi, right concentration, in jhaana but it is not sammaa samaadhi of the eightfold Path. Thus, sammaa is kusala, but we have to add: of the eightfold Path to denote a factor of the eightfold Path which has to accompany sammaa-di.t.thi of the eightfold Path. We read in the suttas about right concentration as the four jhaanas, and why is this so? Because also all kinds of wholesome right concentration which are kusala have been included. The Buddha taught all different levels of right concentration. The object of the Pathfactors are, when it is lokiya, naama and ruupa, paramattha dhammas. When in jhaana, the characteristics of paramattha dhammas which appear one at a time are not penetrated. One may cultivate jhaana, but one has to emerge from it to be aware of nama and rupa now. We read in Dhsg, 94: What on that occasion is self-collectedness (cittass' ekaggataa)? The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on that occasion is the absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet (samatho), the faculty and power of concentration... Pali: Katamo tasmi.m samaye sammaasamaadhi hoti? Yaa tasmi.m samaye cittassa .thiti sa.n.thiti ava.t.thiti avisaahaaro avikkhepo avisaaha.tamaanasataa samatho samaadhindriya.m samaadhibala.m sammaasamaadhi- aya.m tasmi.m samaye sammaasamaadhi hoti. ----- See again: tasmi.m samaye: at that time.. And also different levels: it is indriya and can become bala, power, unshakable. When the factors have become balas there can be mindfulness in any situation, there is no wavering. Nina. #102250 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dutiya Migasaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarahs Faulty Personal Opinions nilovg Dear Suan, Op 13-nov-2009, om 10:27 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > I discovered that a very important Pali phrase (nacirasseva) in the > last paragraph of the above translation has been left un-translated > by Bhikkhu Bodhi or its translation being omitted by Sarah perhaps > as a typing error. > > If the translation of that Pali phrase were present, the following > personal opinion of Sarah or of Bhikkhu Bodhi is wrong. ------- N: nacirasseva: not a long time indeed: this was translated as: in this very life. That is not a long time, thus, it may amount to the same? What do you think? Nina. #102251 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 13-nov-2009, om 14:34 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Today I was sitting, when I felt some pain in my cheast and then I > feel like sick and very unconfortable. I was frighten a bit. And I > sit and feel very bad. How to deal with such feelings, when you > feel like dying? ------- N: Kh Sujin would say: nama and rupa just like each moment. Just conditions, and do not dwell on it. But sometimes hard to apply, I can feel with you. Nina. #102252 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some thoughts on Jhana nilovg Dear Ken O and Alex, Op 13-nov-2009, om 17:20 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > When Buddha describe right concentration, it could be mundane or > supramundane, in the second sutta quote, it is supramundane if I am > not wrong. N: From a discussion before I understood: concentration together with insight. Nina. #102253 From: "colette" Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Some thoughts on Jhana ksheri3 Hi Ken O, I don't know how to spell it but wouldn't it be easier to just use the practice of TREDZKO, "thorough cutting", again, a Dzogchen practice? Using an temporary measure like giving a person being SHANGHIED, kidnapped, a MICKEY FINN, or anestitizing the area to be operated on doesn't seem very productive because of it's TEMPORAL condition and potential for RECOURSE or REDRESS. A Thorough Cutting seems as though it would be more beneficial to the student/aspirant seeking the cessation of suffering. Mmy, I am getting a good work out with you this morning! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > I must apologise. I misread on the word you wrote viraga which I thougt I read as viagra which a medicine for men potency. When I saw this email, I realise you are saying viraga > > Nibbana does not condition anything, it is the unconditonal, the final refuge. Viraga has two meaning according to the Commentary (i) momentary destruction of phenoma or (2) the absolute "fading away". i.e. Nibbana (Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka). <....> #102254 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dutiya Migasaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarahs Faulty Personal Opinions truth_aerator Dear Nina, Suan, all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Suan, > Op 13-nov-2009, om 10:27 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > > > I discovered that a very important Pali phrase (nacirasseva) in the > > last paragraph of the above translation has been left un-translated > > by Bhikkhu Bodhi or its translation being omitted by Sarah perhaps > > as a typing error. > > > > If the translation of that Pali phrase were present, the following > > personal opinion of Sarah or of Bhikkhu Bodhi is wrong. > ------- > N: nacirasseva: not a long time indeed: this was translated as: in > this very life. That is not a long time, thus, it may amount to the > same? What do you think? > Nina. Nacirasseva = na + cira +eva Verily not long. In MN85 the word is used as "na cirasse'va" for attainment of Arhatship. The Buddha says that a person (possesing 5 qualities) may attain arhatship within one day. "A bhikkhu endowed with these five factors gaining the training from the Thus Gone One in the morning, for whatever cause sons of clansmen rightfully go forth homeless that highest end of the holy life, he here and now, knowing, realizing, will attain in the evening, or advised in the evening would realise the next morning." http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/085-bodhirajak\ umara-p.html With metta, Alex #102255 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:42 pm Subject: Humans will be reborn as humans hantun1 Dear Suan, We were taught by our Elders that the main abode for the beings are the four Apaaya bhuumis. Humans are only "visitors" in the human realm. Then suddenly, just before WWII, a Burmese monk made a daring declaration that when humans die they will be reborn as humans. It was a big bombshell in the Buddhist circle. The monk was taken to task, and the proceedings of the ensuing vinicchaya (judgement; trial) was published as a thick book, titled in Burmese [Luu the Luu Phyit Vinicchaya]. At that time, I was only impressed by the thickness of the book. I did not know much about the Buddhist teachings then. I forgot the name of that monk, and I do not think the book is now available in Burma. Do you know anything about this? with metta and respect, Uncle Han Tun #102256 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:01 pm Subject: Magnificent Meditation! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Unique is npnasati Breathing Meditation! Thus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was living at Savatthi, in the palace of Migara's mother, in the Eastern Park, together with many very well known elder disciples: Venerable Sariputta, Maha-Moggallana, Maha-Kassapa, Maha-Kaccayana, Maha-Kotthita, Maha-Kappina, Maha-Cunda, Ven. Anuruddha, Revata, & Ananda. These elder bhikkhus were teaching & instructing the new bhikkhus, who thus achieved successively higher distinction & discrimination! Then, surveying this silent Bhikkhu-Sangha, he addressed the bhikkhus thus: I am content, bhikkhus, with this progress; I am content at heart, bhikkhus, with this development. Therefore, strive still more strenuously to attain the unattained, to achieve the unachieved, to realize the unrealized. I will stay... Anapanasati Sutta. Majjhima Nikaya 118 Full text & explanation here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/pdfs/anapanasati.pdf <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #102257 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Dutiya Migasaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah’s Faulty Personal Opinions hantun1 Dear Suan, Sarah, Nina, and others, > Suan: I discovered that a very important Pali phrase (nacirasseva) in the last paragraph of the above translation has been left un-translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi or its translation being omitted by Sarah perhaps as a typing error. If the translation of that Pali phrase were present, the following personal opinion of Sarah or of Bhikkhu Bodhi is wrong. ----------- [S: "eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyaâ n - note, this is a formula commonly used to describe arahantship in many suttas. The Buddha has already explained to Migajaala in the first sutta that the "lone dweller" is the one who has abandoned craving as a partner.] ------------------------------ Han: The Pali text and English translation in question are as follows. Atha kho aayasmaa migajaalo eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto viharato nacirasseva yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariyam pabbajanti tadanuttaram brahmacariyapariyosaanam di.t.theva dhamme sayam abhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa upasampajja vihaasi. "Then, dwelling alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute, the Venerable Migajaala, by realizing it for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life entered and dwelt in that unsurpassed goal of the holy life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from the household life into homelessness." ------------------------------ Han: I do not know much Pali, but I tried to understand the above texts by referring to the Dictionaries. eka: [adj.] one, alone. vupaka.t.tha: [adj.] secluded. appamatta : [adj.] (a + pamatta:) vigilant; careful; alert. aataapii: (adj.), ardent; strenuous. pahitatta: resolute. nacira (adj.) not of long duration. nacirasseva = after a short time, shortly Sn p. 16; J iv.2, 392; Miln 250. yasa: [m.; nt.] (mano-group), fame; glory; success; retinue. atthaaya: [dat. of attha] for the sake of. kulaputta: [m.] young man of a good family. sammadeva: [ind.] properly; in completeness. agaariya: [adj.; m.] lay man; householder. anagaariyaa: (f.) the homeless state in formula "agaarasmaa anagaariyaŋ pabbajita" = gone out from the house into the homeless state. pabbajati : [pa + vaj + a] goes forth; becomes a monk; leaves household life. tada: that anuttara: [adj.] incomparable; unsurpassed. brahmacariyaa: [f.] religious life; complete chastity. pariyosaana: [nt.] the end; conclusion; perfection. di.t.thadhamma: [m.] this world. (adj.) one who has realised the final truth. saya.m: [ind.] self; by oneself. abhi~n~naa (abs. of abhijaanaati), having understood well. (f.), special knowledge; supernormal power. sacchikatvaa: [abs. of sacchikaroti] having realised; having experienced for oneself. upasampajja: [abs. of upasameti] having appeased; having calmed. vihaasi: [aor.] (he) lived. ------------------------------ Han: From the above, I do not find the English translation lacking, except for the Pali word "nacirasseva" which means "after a short time, or shortly" (PTS Dictionary) Nina wrote: [nacirasseva: not a long time indeed: this was translated as: in this very life. That is not a long time, thus, it may amount to the same? What do you think?] Han: I do not know what Suan will say to this. But, I am not sure if "in this very life" is the translation of "di.t.theva dhamme" and the translation of "nacirasseva" is still missing. Or, does "in this very life" cover both "nacirasseva" and "di.t.theva dhamme"? Anyway, I will be grateful to know from Suan how important it is if the translation of "nacirasseva" is indeed missing? Respectfully, Han #102258 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:39 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (67) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 8. Characteristics of Ruupas (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ---------------------------------- The "Atthasaalinii" (II, Book II, Part I, Ch II, 329) compares birth, decay and death to three enemies, of whom the first leads someone into the forest, the second throws him down and the third cuts off his head. We read: "... For birth is like the enemy who draws him to enter the forest; because he has come to birth in this or that place. Decay is like the enemy who strikes and fells him to earth when he has reached the forest, because the aggregates (khandhas) produced are weak, dependent on others, lying down on a couch. Death is like the enemy who with a sword cuts off the head of him when he is fallen to the ground, because the aggregates having attained decay, have come to destruction of life." This simile reminds us of the disadvantages of all conditioned realities that do not last and are therefore no refuge. However, so long as understanding (pa) has not realized the arising and falling away of nma and rpa, one does not grasp their danger. We read in the "Dghanakhasutta" (Middle Length Sayings II, no. 74) that the Buddha reminded Dghanakha that the body is susceptible to decay, impermanent and not self: "But this body, Aggivessana, which has material shape, is made up of the four great elements, originating from mother and father, nourished on gruel and sour milk, of a nature to be constantly rubbed away, pounded away, broken up and scattered, should be regarded as impermanent, suffering, as a disease, a tumour, a dart, a misfortune, an affliction, as other, as decay, empty, not-self. When he regards this body as impermanent, suffering, as a disease, a tumour, a dart, a misfortune, an affliction, as other, as decay, empty, not-self, whatever in regard to body is desire for body, affection for body, subordination to body, this is got rid of." ------------------------------ Chapter 8. Characteristics of Ruupas (to be continued) with metta, Han #102259 From: Herman Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Come inside the show's about to start" ELP egberdina Hi colette, 2009/11/13 colette > Hi Herman, > > You're stretching it a bit, no? > > it is just that all answers will be like the > > holding up of a mirror. > > NO PROBLEMS, however, you acquire the attributes of a "Taffy Puller" here > and this suggests that you are doing business of the Boardwalk in Atlantic > City N.J. USA. lol Stretching or pulling taffy, what's the difference huh. > I asked the question 'what is there in the absence of asking what is there?' > ------- > The question is not intention-free, and therefore > > the answer will only reveal the intention. > > > colette: how can the answer of another person reveal the intention of the > person asking the question? I am not asking you to reveal my intentions to me. I am asking you to tell me what there is in the absence of questions. You don't have to answer if you don't want to. > As I said, stretching it a bit aren't we? It seems that the "projection" > you impose upon another is a bit HOSTILE? Yeah, right, downright vitriolic I was :-) > for instance, you ask a question with the complete understanding that the > question is asked because it has an INTENTION. Intentions, in this case, are > OBJECTIVES, aren't they? You seem to be doing a disservice to the person you > banty about trifles with since you are not accepting any responsibility for > being a part of the discussion BECAUSE, as you made it clear, the person > giving the answer will "reveal the intention" of the question being asked > which is part of the original person making the querry, asking the question, > interogating a prisoner, etc. <...> > It would be good if you could clarify how me asking you a question about the nature of questions is actually me not accepting responsibility for being part of the discussion. Without knowing what you would say, I would think that going down that road would be a total derail of the topic at hand. And perhaps that is the intention? > ------------------ > > > The reason I asked my unclear question was because it seemed to me that > you > > were writing along the lines of ''things are this way" or "things are > that > > way". Sorry for misunderstanding. > > > colette: Yes, you are absolutely correct. When I speak I make sure that the > common denominator is that I am dealing with things as they are not as they > are hallucinated. When you say that you thought I was dealing with a reality > that suggests that "things are this way" or "things are that way" you are > correct, THINGS CAN ONLY BE AS THEY ARE IN REALITY. > No doubt. But hopefully you can see that a simple paraphrase of my question would be 'how are things when I am not asking how they are?' Can I assume that the things you are writing about CONSCIOUSNESS ETC are response to the questions you are asking? Is it OK or not OK for me to ask what those questions are? > Earlier today I was speaking w/ freaura80 or spelled something like that > and I wanted to get into the concept of TRANSFORMING Consciousness but I'll > be stepping into Ronald Epstein's territory here since I was using that > phrase in the actuality of TRANSFORMING the ACTUAL CONSCIOUSNESS that a > person has but I don't remember enough of his paper THE TRANSFORMATION OF > CONSCIOUSNESS... to be able to confidently "stretch" his words as if they > were taffy so I refrained from that BUT or HOWEVER both this post/reply and > the post/reply to freaura80 would have ended up in the conclusion that the > practitioner has to specifically transform their own consciousness. It's > like a practice in THE GOLDEN DAWN that I ran into when, in like 1985, at > the Quest Bookstore on North Avenue in Wheaton IL, I was begining to search > for specific books on Tantra, PRANAYAMA, ETC, eventually I find that a > specific practice is mentioned in Dion Fortune's works, I think, it could be > Isreal Regardie however, the point was that they advised that the > student/practioner INTENTIONALLY "LOOK AT THEIR HANDS" WHEN THEY ARE > DREAMING, within the dream, so as to accustom themselves with the practice > of maintaining a consciousness during acts such as sleep, that are not > really sleep at all but are different types of consciousness. > > This technique was a lot easier to accomplish then the act of PRANAYAMA, > let me assure you. The problem is that I found this act of "lucid dreaming" > advised within the practices of DZOGCHEN yet the Golden Dawn advisers didn't > give the potential student any warnings or advice, whatsoever, concerning > this practice and why the student is performing these practices. I felt that > WAS/IS VERY DANGEROUS however it also shows me that the Westerners are not > very skilled at these practices and like Aleister Crowley, merely took a few > scraps of Buddhist doctrine and tried to incorporate them into his > BIZARRO-WORLD. > > My point is that CONSCIOUSNESS ALWAYS EXISTS 100% OF THE TIME. That doesn't follow from anything you have written. Nor is that knowable, in principle. If you are saying that when there is consciousness [of x, y and x] there is consciousness of time, then I agree with that, but it doesn't sound like you are saying that. I'd like to put to you that consciousness cannot know absence of consciousness, and that existence, and knowledge of existence, are two totally different things, and that you are mixing them up. > See Yoga Nidra, et al. It takes practice, however, to accustom yourself to > this fact and to the characteristics which are part of that world, that > reality, which, for the most part, the status quo has absolutely no concept > of being an EXISTANT CONSCIOUSNESS OR CONSCIOUS REALITY. > > Now that you've picked up the gauntlet that I was considering to use in the > case of freaura80, I now I'm relatively required to at least find > R.Epstein's paper and try to skim over it tonight. And I know, for fact, > that his stuff IS DEEP AND REQUIRES A LOT OF FOUNDATIONAL EDUCATION TO BE > ABLE TO UNDERSTAND IT, which I know I don't have since I don't even have a > Bachelor's degree and so, this could really cause me some trouble tonight. > In fact, I know exactly where it is since his stuff is in a seperate hanging > folder directly behind the YOGACHARA hanging folders. > > Nothing for you to be sorry about since there wasn't any trouble at all. > > Good :-) Cheers Herman #102260 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Lukas wrote: >Recently I again appreciated listening. I wasnt sure that my posts are helpful for everyone. I can say something and it can be a condition for dosa for some people. Maybe I shouldnt support the ideas that differentiate people? This is my dhamma question to you. .... S: If we just do our best with good intentions, then it depends on many factors how others respond (or don't respond). Metta and kindly-intended assistance don't hurt - it's the accumulated dosa which conditions more dosa. Again, as you pointed out to me recently, when we're having dilemmas or wondering what is best, there's usually attachment to 'me' at the back of it - wanting to be the one who helps wisely, who doesn't prompt dosa and so on. .... >I see like those different concepts influence personalities. different reactions. >Also What can be a condition for anger, it can be also very helpful. >For me what you, Nina and others said to me , was so helpful. I appreciated all anataness and emptiness helpful reminders. dhammas , dhammas. just conditioned element. ... S: Yes, this is what I've always found helpful, but as you've noted, for others the same words can be a condition for a lot of dosa by natural decisive support condition. .... >conditioned, conditioned element. sapaccaya, sankhata, what does it mean? It means that is not just theory, that all is without control. sapaccaya, sankhata it means the characteristic that can be know. all without control, different conditoned elements, no Self. ... S: Yes, now... ... >I also read your answer to pt, on one pannati for many javanacittas in one mind-door-process, then another concept in different mind-door process. as I understand it. But isnt it the first ~nana that all is very clear. And then it's just the panna dhatu that knows? But isnt it like that we need to hear more and more and first there is some kusala thinking that is of paryiatti level? ... S: Yes, to the qus on panna and yes, there has to be pariyatti, very firm intellectual understanding first before any ~nanas. If we don't understand even in theory about the distinction between seeing and visible object, I don't think there can be any direct understanding of either. .... >Jon said, there is a need to develop all lesser degree of kusala. But who can develop anything. ... S: Panna and associated factors develop all kinds of kusala, by understanding what kusala is and the value of it when it arises. ... >For sure Kusala are very important, but when there is no tihetuka kusala citta. Then it cannot be appraciated. ... S: If you mean that kusala only develops with panna, I agree. ... >I feel very hard to develop this or that with such big idea of Self that accompanies me all the time. ... S: That sounds like that big Self....:-)) ... >But no matter what there is always something. and this can be an object to understanding, when they are conditions. No one knows when. I learned form my life that development of right understanding, and learning more on Non-Self is a great condition to all kind of kusala. The all is so easy ;> ... S: Yes, "no one knows when". No expectations again. Thinking about how hard it is 'for me', doesn't help at all. Yes, it is the understanding of dhammas as anatta which takes care of the path and the appreciation of all kinds of kusala as dhammas, not-self. Thx for your reflections, Lukas. Metta Sarah ====== #102261 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja sarahprocter... Hi Herman (Alex & all), > > S: ....there have certainly been many "suggesters" here over the years who've proclaimed that forest-dwelling is recommended by the Buddha for the development of samatha and vipassana. > > > H:> This discussion prompted me to post the following > sutta in it's entirity. > > It's not very long :-) > > > > Sn 1:3 Khaggavisana Sutta > > Renouncing violence for all living beings, harming not even > a one, you would > not wish for offspring, so how a companion? Wander alone > like a rhinoceros. > For a sociable person there are allurements; on the heels > of allurement, > this pain. Seeing allurement's drawback, wander alone like > a rhinoceros. One > whose mind is enmeshed in sympathy for friends & > companions, neglects the > true goal. Seeing this danger in intimacy, wander alone > like a rhinoceros. <...> S: We've discussed this sutta (more than once) before, if I'm not mistaken:-) I think it's a vey deep sutta. In #87912, I wrote: >S:...as Thanissaro makes clear in his notes, the commentary by Maha Kaccana (inc. from the outset in the Pali Canon) makes it clear that 'home' refers to the khandhas and 'companions' or 'society' refers to sense impressions. S:> So, this is like the Migajala sutta - living alone without sense impressions. >Indeed, all the suttas are about learning to live alone, without clinging to 'home' and 'society', without clinging to what appears through the senses, regardless of whether we're a forest dweller or a middle-class wayfarer. >The truths are universal, Herman - they are never about another time, place and lifestyle. They're always about the right understanding of the present dhamma. This is how we learn to "wander alone like a rhinoceros", alone with seeing, alone with hearing, alone with thinking. There's only ever one world at a time which can never be shared with another. ***** S: I might add, that it is through the development of 'seclusion', wandering alone without attachment now, that eventually we may learn to live the life of the arahat, the bhikkhu who has fully comprehended 'the danger in states of becoming' and for whom there is no more 'passion, aversion or delusion'. I know we disagree in our interpretations about what the seclusion that the Buddha advocated was, so we can leave it here if you like. Metta Sarah ======== #102262 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: chat with Scott sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- On Sun, 8/11/09, philofillet wrote: >I love that. "progressions towards harmlessness. " I would like to know how to say that in Pali. ... S: bhavana? ... >I'd also like to know how to say "soothing concept of being aware of presently arisen realities in daily life" in Pali! ... S: pariyatti? ... Metta Sarah "the final slippery tango step for los sujinistos" sounds like a good line for your next novel:-)) ======= #102263 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal instructions in VsM sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Sun, 8/11/09, Lukas Szmidt wrote: >>A:I just read a bit of Chapter IV. I wanna add something. >[THE EIGHTEEN FAULTS OF A MONASTERY] <...> >L: Those 18 faults. Buddha/Theras were so accurate of realities. They pointed it out excelant. It reminds me on 'different bhikkhu minds'. How they arise, how they are conditioned. This passage of 18 faults is so good. This is on realities. How different dhammas of largness of monastery can influance people. excelant. Dhamma. This is so accuarate. In my life this different concepts also influance different behaviours. I dont think of 'me doing'. Just different reminders influance and they act on its own way. All's conditioned. I dont need to think of 'me doing'. I dont need Lukas to be happy. Just different moments. Just couple of my thoughts. ... S: Very interesting thoughts too. We can see how with the development of a little understanding of conditioned dhammas as anatta, we can read and appreciate anything as a reminder to be aware and develop understanding now. As you say, no need "to think of 'me doing'" and "I don't need Lukas to be happy. Just different moments." Very wise. Metta Sarah ======= #102264 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:50 am Subject: Re: Humans will be reborn as humans abhidhammika Dear Uncle U Han Tun How are you? The Sayadaw who wrote the book 'Luu The Luu Phyit' was Taung Twin Gyi Sayadaw U Uttama. He was excommunicated for that book, but he did not disrobe. I did have a chance to read that book long time ago, but I forgot the details. I have also seen the book `Luu The Luu Phyit Vinicchaya' in the university library in Canberra long time ago, but did not have a chance to read it. However, I and my father had a chance to visit Sayadaw at his monastery in Taung Twin Gyi when we went to that city to look for a bamboo xylophone as I was interested in that musical instrument at that time. It was, of course, a very long time ago. Despite his fame and a large following of readership and middleclass leftwing Burmese intellectuals, Sayadaw lived a very simple life. We met him in a one-storey small brick building where there was only one table and a chair. We asked him about the idea of humans being reborn as humans. I forgot the details of his replies. The one thing I still remember is that Sayadaw tried to explain it in terms of Plato's abstract idea of horse. So, Uncle, that is all I remember about Sayadaw U Uttama's answers regarding his book `Luu The Luu Phyit'. When I have a chance, I will have a look at the book `Luu The Luu Phyit Vinicchaya' at the University library. Respectfully, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: Dear Suan, We were taught by our Elders that the main abode for the beings are the four Apaaya bhuumis. Humans are only "visitors" in the human realm. Then suddenly, just before WWII, a Burmese monk made a daring declaration that when humans die they will be reborn as humans. It was a big bombshell in the Buddhist circle. The monk was taken to task, and the proceedings of the ensuing vinicchaya (judgement; trial) was published as a thick book, titled in Burmese [Luu the Luu Phyit Vinicchaya]. At that time, I was only impressed by the thickness of the book. I did not know much about the Buddhist teachings then. I forgot the name of that monk, and I do not think the book is now available in Burma. Do you know anything about this? with metta and respect, Uncle Han Tun #102265 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (Lukas, Sukin* & all), You gave some helpful comments and quotes on sila and kamma: #101465 --- On Sun, 18/10/09, Ken O wrote: >...A lot of times, when I come across questions on sila in DSG, I seldom answer because there are many opinions of sila. However my IMHO on sila is always going back to the roots of the akusala behaviour. The behaviour aspects are resulted from body intimations and verbal intimations be it kusala and aksuala. Such intimidations originated from cittas, caused by cittas and not otherwise. >Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma pg 206 No 22 Unwholesome kamma Of them, unwholesome kamma is threefold according to the doors of action, namely bodily action, verbal action and mental action How? Killing stealing and sexual misconduct are bodily actions generally occuring through the door of the body known as bodily intimation Falsh speech, slandering, harse speech and frivolous talk are verbal actions generally occuring though the door of speech known as vocal intimation. Convetousness, ill will and wrong view are mental actions, generally ocurring in the mind without (body or vocal) intimation ... S: Yes, this is quite a complex topic and you give a good quote. There's a lot more in the commentary to it (Summary p 177- 182). We discussed this in detail in Bangkok recently. When it's not kaya or vaci-kamma, then it's mano-kamma, inc. the javanas in the sense-door processes. ... >Sila is twofold (pg 38) The Perfection of Enlightment as avoidance (varitta) and as performance (caritta). Sila as avoidance is abstaining from evil. Sila as performance is the righ conduct one should follow. >KenO - when akusala citta arises, and one realise it, the citta that condition akusala behaviour will be weaken. Thus panna is important to the development of sila. Everytime, panna arise, aksuala loses its strength, its strangulations, its bondages, its ties. However some say that even though panna arise, they still commit aksuala behaviour. To me that is because panna is not strong enough as compare to the lantency of the aksuala, it is not strong enough to see the danger in aksuala behaviour. ... S: Very good - no hiri and ottappa at such a time either. ... >When we dont see the danger, it is difficult to abstain from evil. That is the reasons why the four aksuala cetasikas is universal to all aksuala behavour, moha preventing to see the danger of akusala, there is no shame or fear in the wrong doing (hiri and anottapa) and restlessness. ... S: Yes, well said. ... >Listening of the dhamma is also impt to panna and to cultivations. pg 186, Chapter Five, Commentary to the Summary of Topics of Abdhidhamma and Commentary The volitions that consists in listening to beneficial advice with an intention that is undefiled, occuring by way of the wish to further one's own or others' well being, thinking that, having heard the dhamma by putting it into practise as instructed one will become one who partakes of the different ordinary and transcendent qualities, or, having become learned, one will help others by teaching the dhamma, is called hearing the Dhamma. The volition that consists in studying blameless [subjects of ordinary] learning etc, included in this. pg 187 >Acariya Dhammapala Thera states that teaching, listening and striaghtening one's view are included in cultivation becuse they constitute the repeated practise of wholesome dhammas. Others, however argue that when one teaches and listens one does so employing knowledge consequent upon that one is teaching and repeatedly piercing through to the characteristics [of dhammas]; thus teaching and listening are included in cultivation because they bring acute insight. ... S: Nice quotes:-) I just had a look at the text and the earlier ones on the same page under "paying respect" and "service (veyyaacca)" caught my attention, because I was discussing this topic a little wile ago and they both fall under siila (morality): "The volition that makes one show respet to one's seniors in age and good qualities in various ways, such as by rising from one's seat, offering a seat, etc., with an intention that is undefiled and free from the expectation of [receiving in return] robes, etc., is called paying respect. "The volition that makes one carry out various duties for these same persons and for the sick with the same kind of intention is called service." The text points out that both of these "are included in the merit that consists in virtue, due to their constituting the virtue of polite manners." *** For others, these all come under the 10 meritorious deeds , pu~n~na-kiriya-vatthu. So there are three kinds of wholesome kamma (through body, speech and mind) and these are also threefold by way of generosity, virtue and cultivation (bhaavanaa). The 10 kinds of deeds which fall under generosity, virtue and cultivation are: 1)generosity, 2)virtue, 3)cultivation, 4)paying respect, 5)service, 6)giving of good fortune, 7)rejoicing in others' good fortune, 8)hearing the Dhamma, 9)teaching the Dhamma and 10)straightening one's view. Note: 6) and 7) are included in generosity 4) and 5) are included in virtue 8), 9) and 10) are included in cultivation *Sukin, you were asking about this area in Bkk. Also lots more in U.P. under "Meritorious Deeds". **** Great texts that you've been pointing to, Ken O! Many thanks. Metta Sarah ======== #102266 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: charactoristic of citta jonoabb Hi Howard (102149) > Yes, and it is on that basis that you use "sight" as a translation of the > Pali "rupa" ("form/visible object"); but that is in fact your own gloss on > the Pali term. > ------------------------------------------------- > What is being discussed is "what is seen." The normal English for what > is seen is 'sight. > =============== J: As you may recall, my original question concerned the references in the suttas to cakkhu-vinnana ("seeing consciousness") and rupa ("form"/"visible object"). To my understanding, the term "rupa" as object of seeing consciousness has a meaning that is different from the normal English expression "sight" or "what is seen", which for most people would imply a world of people and things. The dhamma that is visible object is of another order altogether. Well I think this thread has gone about as far as it can go without repetition. Thanks for the discussion. Over and out from me ;-)) Last word to you. Jon #102267 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta jonoabb Hi Herman (102153) > Persons are entities that have a life span (they exist for a period of time) > and during that time they do things. That is exactly what is being > attributed to cittas, is it not? > =============== J: Yes, in the conventional sense persons are considered to be "entities". And yes, they do things. However, cittas are not said to do things, but merely to have a function. I'm afraid I do not see the similarity you are trying to point to. > =============== > > I have no difficulty with the idea of the consciousness that experiences > > being different from the object that is experienced. What is the problem > > with that? > > > > Mainly that it is only an idea, it is a thought reality only. The division > does not exist apart from thinking. > =============== J: Yes, as I said, it is an idea. But the question as to whether or not the distinction exists apart from thinking is another matter. The teachings (as I read them) say the distinction does exist, but that only by developed panna can it be directly known. > =============== > > So let me ask you: Is it your understanding that rupas arise only as > > object of consciousness? > > > > No, it is not. But an experienced rupa is not identical with an > unexperienced one. There seem to be two different definitions of rupas that > are being intermixed in the discussion. There are rupas (forms) that are > contacted, and that are not contacted: > > "Now if internally the eye is intact but externally forms do not come into > range, nor is there a corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing > of the corresponding type of consciousness. If internally the eye is intact > and externally forms come into range, but there is no corresponding > engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of > consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and externally forms > come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the > appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness." MN28 > > That, however, does not equate to an uncontacted form being identical with a > contacted form. An uncontacted form lacks any characteristic. It may as well > be nibbana. > =============== J: I do not see in the quoted passage any basis for the assertion that an uncontacted form lacks a characteristic. My understanding of the teachings is in fact that the characteristic(s) of a given dhamma pertain at all times regardless of whether or not they are the object of consciousness. > =============== > The current scope of the discussion will do just fine for the moment, Jon > :-) > =============== J: Right, even an issue as narrow as this could take us some time to resolve ;-)) Jon #102268 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some thoughts on Jhana jonoabb Hi Alex (102144) > This is an important aspect of meditation, to set the causes for wisdom by removing obstructions to "seeing as it is". As long as 5 hindrances are there, one does NOT "see things are they are". One sees things as hindrances want us to "see". > =============== J: At the precise moment that the hindrances are arising, sati/panna cannot arise. However, as the Satipatthana Sutta makes clear in the dhammaanupassana section (The Contemplation on Mental Objects), the hindrances can be the object of satipatthana. This means that sati/panna can arise in between moments of akusala. Jon The Contemplation on Mental Objects 1. The Five Hindrances "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in mental objects? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances? "Here, O bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.' He understands how the arising of the non-arisen sensuality comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen sensuality comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sensuality comes to be. #102269 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:26 am Subject: Re: Relpy to Ken O /with a new subject heading jonoabb Hi Phil (and KenH) (102134) I don't know whether so-called "vipassana meditation" is a completely modern invention or not (and even practicioners such as U Silananda in the Mahasi tradition state in talks that this is a misnomer, "in the neighbourhood of vipassana" would be more accurate, he says in a talk I heard) but it is really nutty to insist that the ancient texts (if Vism. is an ancient text) don't teach conventional samattha practice. > =============== J: Just for the record, Phil, I'm one of those who doesn't read the Visuddhimagga to be speaking about a formal kind of samatha "practice", but to be describing how the higher stages of samatha are developed by a person who is already quite accomplished in that development. I suspect there may be others of similar view lurking around too ;-)) Jon #102270 From: han tun Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Humans will be reborn as humans hantun1 Dear Suan, Thank you very much for your quick response. I really appreciate the information you have given. If you have the chance to read the book again, I would like to know the gist of facts on which Sayadaw U Uttama based his ideas. with metta and respect, Uncle Han Tun p.s. Are you now in Australia? I am in Bangkok #102271 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal instructions in VsM sarahprocter... Hi Alex & all, --- On Sun, 8/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: >In VsM III,29 it states that one must severe 10 impediments to Samadhi. >"he should sever any of the ten impediments that he may have. [90] Now the 'ten impediments' are: A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." ... S: Let's look at III, 27 first, the introduction to this: 27: "The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the noble paths mentioned (#7) under that 'of two kinds as mundane and supramundane', etc., is included in the method of developing understanding (Ch XXII); for in developing [path] understanding that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] about how that is to be developed." *** S: So first of all, it's made clear that with regard to the eightfold path, when right understanding develops, right concentration (mundane and supramundane of the path) also develops. Ch XXII is "Purification of Knowledge and Vision". We can study and consider more about right understanding and the namas and rupas which have to be known first. *** 28: "But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that is quite purified in the way already stated. He should sever any of the ten impediments that he may have..." *** S: This, I believe, is referring to the development of samatha up to jhana. Here, it is referring to the one who has already purified siila. Let's consider this first. Has siila already been purified? What is the way already stated? Let's look at the verses at the end of the "Description of Virtue": 159: "His virtue is immaculate, His wearing of the bowl and robes Gives pleasure and inspires trust, His going forth will bear its fruit. "A bhikkhu in his virtue pure Has never fear that self-reproach Will enter in his heart: indeed There is no darkness in the sun <..> "There are no cankers here and now To plague the virtuous man at all; The virtuous man digs out the root Of suffering in lives to come...." ... S: Has such siila been purified? Alex, I'm not giving any answers, I'm just giving an indication of how I consider the words very carefully. For example, I don't read all the "shoulds" in the Pali which are translated into the English - I read pres. perf participles, such as 'having gone to the forest...', 'having severed (upacchinditvaa) the impediments' etc. As Lukas was commenting (in the text I replied to a little while ago), all dhammas are conditioned - there's no Self to do anything. When there's right understanding, we can read anything at all and see it's just pointing to such conditioned namas and rupas. Like now, are there conditions for kusala or akusala cittas? Are they taken for being one's own, or are they understood as 'mere fleeting phenomena'? Metta Sarah ======= #102272 From: "colette" Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Come inside the show's about to start" ELP ksheri3 Good Morning Herman, Isn't this odd: it's 7:30, I'm sitting here w/ a cup of coffee, tho house is completely silent and has been since about 7 p.m. last night, and now I get to enjoy your reply to me FIRST THING no less. Way back in 2004 when I first found that I could enjoy a form of companionship while studying these obscure things that I study I was accustoming myself to this form of "interaction" and "drying out" from a few years of carefree exuberent EXCESS after a psuedo-mid-life-crisis, I eventually or naturally ran into a few former Soviet citizens, Russians, who were/are "engineers", they even have their resumes posted on-line <...> I inform you of this because I got the distinct impression, as I read through your reply to me, towards the end, that I was reading the work of a CHAOS MAGICIAN. I can't explain it since it is early and I'm trying something new here, today, it was just an odd impression imposed upon me as I read. This flavors the entire day, then, since now I'll be so focused on trying to figure out how the hell I came up with you having anything to do with CHAOS magik, that it is possible that my entire day is ruined. That is if you forget to consider the rejuvinating aspects of routine or monotony; in this case it's a fact that at the St.Vincent DePaul center for the homeless, they are having a Thanksgiving dinner and I was lucky enough to get a ticket the other day at the soup kitchen a few miles away from St.Vincent DePaul center. With this being the case then my focus will be easily returned to me and to my usual routine of lamenting about my position and life while I walk to the library but am VISUALLY attacked every second by seeing an endless stream of sights that come with their own endless amount of questions, that I have yet to have encountered. Even walking out my front door I am struck by a new day and a new world that I haven't encountered and am filled with endless questions concerning this new world. I think I'll take a breather and let this rest since I specifically wanted to focus on R.Epstein's paper concerning THE TRANSFORMATION OF CONSCIOUSNESS INTO WISDOM IN THE CHINESE CONSCIOUSNESS-ONLY SCHOOL ACCORDING TO THE CHENG WEI-SHI LUN: "Development of the Four types of Enlightened wisdom" thanx for the interaction to start my day. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi colette, > > 2009/11/13 colette > > > Hi Herman, > > > > You're stretching it a bit, no? > > > > it is just that all answers will be like the > > > holding up of a mirror. > > > > NO PROBLEMS, however, you acquire the attributes of a "Taffy Puller" here > > and this suggests that you are doing business of the Boardwalk in Atlantic > > City N.J. USA. lol Stretching or pulling taffy, what's the difference huh. > > > > I asked the question 'what is there in the absence of asking what is there?' <...> #102273 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling nilovg Dear Perry, please allow me to answer on dsg, since others are interested. Op 13-nov-2009, om 2:06 heeft Staisha Perry het volgende geschreven: > q: is it true that feeling born of eye contact is feeling that is > born with eye contact as a cause? ----- N: As a condition. Contact conditions feeling, and they are conascent. -------- > P:Also, i have read, in the eye door there are 2 eye-conciousness, ------- > N: in the eye-door process the vipaakacitta that is eye- > consciousness or seeing can be either kusala vipaakacitta or > akusala vipaakacitta. When it is the result of kusala kamma it is > kusala vipaakacitta and when it is the result of akusala kamma it > is akusala vipaakacitta. Nobody can choose vipaaka it is entirely > conditioned by kamma. ---------- > 2 mind elements, 3-mind conscious element, what are they? If you > could be so kind to share in layman`s term so i may understand. --------- N: Naama and ruupa can be classified as elements, and hereis a classification by way of eighteen elements. I quote from my Abh in Daily life: Element: it reminds us of being devoid of self. ---------- > P: Q: should feeling be understood in this way, as what is > associated with these, does the same apply to all the sense faculty? --------- N: Feeling is a cetasika, it is dhamma-dhaatu. The senses are ruupas. ruupa-dhaatu. -------- > P: Q: how with the mind door, does (feeling) associate only with > the mind door consciousness elements? ------- N: Feeling accompanies each citta, there is no moment without feeling. When feeling is indifferent we usually do not notice it. The mind-door is the last bhavangacitta arising before the mind-door adverting-consciousness arises and the mind-door process begins. This citta is also accompanied by feeling. -------- > P: i know this way beyond my understanding, but the questions arose > and i need help clarifing. ------ N: Let me know what is not clear yet, Nina. #102274 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: charactoristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/14/2009 8:13:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (102149) > Yes, and it is on that basis that you use "sight" as a translation of the > Pali "rupa" ("form/visible object"); but that is in fact your own gloss on > the Pali term. > ------------------------------------------------- > What is being discussed is "what is seen." The normal English for what > is seen is 'sight. > =============== J: As you may recall, my original question concerned the references in the suttas to cakkhu-vinnana ("seeing consciousness") and rupa ("form"/"visible object"). To my understanding, the term "rupa" as object of seeing consciousness has a meaning that is different from the normal English expression "sight" or "what is seen", which for most people would imply a world of people and things. The dhamma that is visible object is of another order altogether. Well I think this thread has gone about as far as it can go without repetition. Thanks for the discussion. Over and out from me ;-)) Last word to you. --------------------------------------- 'plastics' ;-)) ---------------------------------------- Jon ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102275 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/14/2009 10:00:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > q: is it true that feeling born of eye contact is feeling that is > born with eye contact as a cause? ----- N: As a condition. Contact conditions feeling, and they are conascent. ============================= So, there is no contact without feeling and no feeling without contact (at the same time). Why, then do you suppose that in every presentation of the 12-link scheme of D.O. there is given "From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling" but NOT the converse. With regard to consciousness and namarupa, their mutual dependency is stated in at least one sutta, the Sheaves of Reeds sutta. Why only the one-sided formulation of contact --> feeling? It must represent a mode of conditioning in addition to conascence, it seems to me. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102276 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:22 am Subject: Wander alone like a rhinoceros. truth_aerator Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Herman (Alex & all), > > > > S: ....there have certainly been many "suggesters" here over the years who've proclaimed that forest-dwelling is recommended by the Buddha for the > development of samatha and vipassana. > > > > > > H:> This discussion prompted me to post the following > > sutta in it's entirity. > > > It's not very long :-) > > > > > > > Sn 1:3 Khaggavisana Sutta > > > > Renouncing violence for all living beings, harming not even > > a one, you would > > not wish for offspring, so how a companion? Wander alone > > like a rhinoceros. > > For a sociable person there are allurements; on the heels > > of allurement, > > this pain. Seeing allurement's drawback, wander alone like > > a rhinoceros. One > > whose mind is enmeshed in sympathy for friends & > > companions, neglects the > > true goal. Seeing this danger in intimacy, wander alone > > like a rhinoceros. > <...> > > S: We've discussed this sutta (more than once) before, if I'm not mistaken:-) I think it's a vey deep sutta. > > In #87912, I wrote: > > >S:...as Thanissaro makes clear in his notes, the commentary by Maha Kaccana (inc. from the outset in the Pali Canon) makes it clear that 'home' refers to the khandhas and 'companions' or 'society' refers to sense impressions. > > S:> So, this is like the Migajala sutta - living alone without sense impressions. > If we analyze everything into 5 aggregates scheme than that is all we will see. The Buddha was nothing more than freedom from 5 aggregates, the suffering is activity of the aggregates, etc etc. If we analyze from conventional, real world point of view: There was a historic Buddha, there are suttas (which is what we are analyzing), there IS effort and khandhas that do the effort in the forest and other secluded place. Forest and secluded places are aggregates too! Not all circumstances (rupa kkhandha and other relevant kkhandhas) is suitable. Sitting in a strip club ogling women and drinking beer isn't a most suitable place to develop the meditation (at least not for a beginner. Advanced student won't desire to go there in the first place). We cab replace strip club (which is made of kkhandhas and concepts) with busy shopping center and use the same arguments. It is not a suitable circustance of khandha, ayatana, dhatu, etc, to develop insight, any real insight, for most if not all bearers of aggregates. With metta, Alex #102277 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma for Freawaru's daughter. nilovg Dear Freawaru, Thank you for sharing this revealing story. It shows how fast cittas change because of conditions. You are a good teacher to your daughter. What is her name? I add some remarks. Op 13-nov-2009, om 20:37 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > At first I tried to soothe her, telling her that her friend surely > didn't do it on purpose, that it was due to her own not letting go > that the piece broke and that she could crochet it again. Didn't > work of course. She stayed angry. Then I tried another approach: I > asked her to describe how she felt and she reflected on her anger. > I asked her if she liked to feel this way - she said "no!", > angrily. Then I said: "that is strange. I enjoy being angry, it is > so amusing to see how illogical my mind behaves during anger, > completely different than normal." > > That made her stop. She really stoped. Her tears gone, I saw how > she looked inward, focusing on what was there inside her mind to > see what I meant. And suddenly she laughed from all her heart. --------- N: It seems that we are different personalities when crying or laughing, but in fact there are only different cittas arising each arising because of their own conditions and then completely gone. You made your daughter look as it were into a mirror. This is Abhidhamma in Daily Life. The Abhidhamma is not some text in a book. We can also see that different moods condition different facial expressions, citta is one of the conditions for the origination of ruupa. --------- > > F: After a few moments of laughter the tears came again, and half > angry, half laughing she told me: "Okay, mommy, I will play with > her again - but never I will crochet again anything." > > "Of course not, honey" I told her, "never, ever, again." > > Five minutes later I found her teaching crocheting to her friend. -------- N: Psychologically finely felt not to contradict her. She was teaching again: this is her generosity, wanting to help. Kusala citta. But alas, often alternated with akusala citta: I am so great, I am the teacher, I know better. Or attachment to what one perceives. In general I would say that when things are not the way we like them to be there is bound to be aversion. We cannot choose the cittas, they have arisen already. We are not master of the cittas. This is the meaning of anattaa. But understanding can be developed. ****** Nina. #102278 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Revisit Vis. Ch XVII. was: Eye door, mind consciousness nilovg Hi Howard, I always like to revisit Visuddhimagga Ch XVII. Let me know whether you find anything not clear. I can add more. Op 14-nov-2009, om 16:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > So, there is no contact without feeling and no feeling without contact > (at the same time). Why, then do you suppose that in every > presentation of > the 12-link scheme of D.O. there is given "From contact as a requisite > condition comes feeling" but NOT the converse. > With regard to consciousness and namarupa, their mutual dependency is > stated in at least one sutta, the Sheaves of Reeds sutta. Why only the > one-sided formulation of contact --> feeling? It must represent a > mode of > conditioning in addition to conascence, it seems to me. ---------- N: Revisit Visuddhimagga Ch XVII: Text Vis. 231: Herein, in the five doors contact beginning with eye- contact is a condition in eight ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, result, nutriment, association, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the five kinds of feeling that have respectively eye sensitivity, etc., as their physical basis. -------- N: Eye-contact accompanies seeing-consciousness. This contact conditions the feeling accompanying seeing-consciousness by way of conascence and other conditions that are conascent. It is the same for the other sense-contacts. Nutriment-condition is mentioned, because contact is a mental nutriment for the other conascent dhammas including feeling. Contact as a mental nutriment supports the prolongation of the cycle of birth and death. ------- N: Also mutuality as you see. I wrote in my conclusion: We learn from these texts that contact and feeling are mere dhammas, cetasikas, that they do not belong to us. ****** Nina. #102279 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:49 am Subject: Re: Relpy to Ken O /with a new subject heading truth_aerator Dear Jon, Sarah, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: Just for the record, Phil, I'm one of those who doesn't read the Visuddhimagga to be speaking about a formal kind of samatha "practice", but to be describing how the higher stages of samatha are developed by a person who is already quite accomplished in that development. > > I suspect there may be others of similar view lurking around too ;-)) > > Jon > Can you clarify the exact differences between: "a formal kind of samatha practice". and "higher stages of samatha are developed by a person who is already quite accomplished in that development". With metta, Alex #102280 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:28 am Subject: present moment diary. nilovg Dear Ken H and all, There is always the present moment. Quote from Letters from Holland: Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:30 pm Subject: U Ukka.t.tha Is The Correct Name. Re: Humans will be reborn as humans abhidhammika Uncle U han Tun How are you? Please kindly correct the name 'U Uttama' To U Ukka.t.tha. Sorry about this memory error. Yes, Uncle, I am in Australia. Respectfully, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: Dear Suan, Thank you very much for your quick response. I really appreciate the information you have given. If you have the chance to read the book again, I would like to know the gist of facts on which Sayadaw U Uttama based his ideas. #102282 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:58 pm Subject: Re: present moment diary. kenhowardau Hi Nina and all, There have been several occasions in my life when I have experienced a brief attack of claustrophobia. Thankfully, no great harm has been done, but I worry that future attacks might be more serious. So I want to get rid of this uncontrollable, irrational fear while I still can. Standard, conventional, advice is to 'practise.' Bring about a small, manageable degree of claustrophobia and then calmly observe it. See it for the silly, ineffectual thing that it really is. That might be the standard advice but it is not the way taught by the Buddha. According to the Buddha, right now - in the present moment - there is a terrible, uncontrollable reality that is sheer dukkha. It can't be 'brought about' because it is already here - uninvited, uncontrollable. Sheer dukkha! Therefore, whatever the presently experienced reality it might be - visible object, eye consciousness, pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, calm, fear - let's have right understanding now. It's the only way. :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ken H and all, > > There is always the present moment. > > Quote from Letters from Holland: > > in our daily life in order to make progress with the development of > understanding. It is already condiitoned that one has such a > demanding job or that one has to do so much work in one's house. > There is always the present moment. Why do we prefer another > situation to the present situation, another object to the present > object? That is attachment. It takes courage and detachment to face > the present object with understanding. #102283 From: "philofillet" Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:38 pm Subject: Re: Relpy to Ken O /with a new subject heading philofillet Hi Jon OK, I should have known as much :) I think the directions to the "clansman who is a beginner" negates this view of yours, and the detailed, very mundane layout of instructions do as well, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Actually, a student of K.S once described the concentration section of Vism. to me a "mainly a meditation manual", and I think that word "manual" is correct. A "manual" contains instructions, I think. But I agree that there are many suttas that people would take as instructions that are more like descriptions of the awakening mind, and obviously the "understanding" section of Vism. falls in there. (And I'm sure many parts of the concentration section as well, but not, for example, the instructions for the "clansman who is a beginner" about how to count the breaths etc. I'll leave it there. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: . > > =============== > > J: Just for the record, Phil, I'm one of those who doesn't read the Visuddhimagga to be speaking about a formal kind of samatha "practice", but to be describing how the higher stages of samatha are developed by a person who is already quite accomplished in that development. > > I suspect there may be others of similar view lurking around too ;-)) > > Jon > #102284 From: "philofillet" Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: chat with Scott philofillet H Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > --- On Sun, 8/11/09, philofillet wrote: > >I love that. "progressions towards harmlessness. " I would like to know how to say that in Pali. > ... > S: bhavana? P: Hmm. Interesting. I was thinking more literally how to say"progression towards harmlessness." I'm learning the entire Dhammapada in Pali and get a lot of inspiration/motivation/comfort out of Pali sentences these days. > ... > > >I'd also like to know how to say "soothing concept of being aware of presently arisen realities in daily life" in Pali! > ... > S: pariyatti? Ph: Oh, this is interesting. I think you guys go wrong on pariyatti by being too ambitious (unconsciously) of putting it at the center of your daily lives, so there is exploitation of descriptioins of deep understanding, appropriation of others' panna. We could talk about that some time, not now. Thanks! Metta, Phil > > Metta > > Sarah > "the final slippery tango step for los sujinistos" sounds like a good line for your next novel:-)) > ======= > #102285 From: "philofillet" Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: chat with Scott philofillet Hi again Sarah and all > > >I'd also like to know how to say "soothing concept of being aware of presently arisen realities in daily life" in Pali! > > ... > > S: pariyatti? > > Ph: Oh, this is interesting. I think you guys go wrong on pariyatti by being too ambitious (unconsciously) of putting it at the center of your daily lives, so there is exploitation of descriptioins of deep understanding, appropriation of others' panna. Ph: Posting naked on the way to the shower, running around as usual before work. To add to the above, I think that *if* one really kept pariyatti at the center of things that would be fine, but the "the Abhidhamma is not in the book" thinking means to me that there is a constant pushing towards actualization of the deep theory, and all those moments of seeking awareness of presently arisen realities in daily life is where the unwise little hungry moments of wanting lie. You'll say somethiing like "can seeing be understood, is seeing in the book" and fine, but I think (because it went on in my case) that there are lots and lots of little self-driven, comfort-seeking propulsions toward fast-forwarding pariyatti into patipati again and again. I think pariyatti should stay in the book except for very rare moments that are beyond our control. "Abhidhamma is not in the book" thinking goes against that, I think. We definitely will talk about this someday. You're good at keeping posts on file for later use, Sarah, if you could keep this until I'm back someday for proper discussion that would be great, Sarah. Thanks! Now I'm outta here. (Don't think about me naked. Ooops! Too late.) Metta, Phil #102286 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: chat with Scott sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- On Sun, 15/11/09, philofillet wrote: >We definitely will talk about this someday. You're good at keeping posts on file for later use, Sarah, if you could keep this until I'm back someday for proper discussion that would be great, Sarah. Thanks! Now I'm outta here. (Don't think about me naked. Ooops! Too late.) ... S: glad we don't have video chat here....That'll be easy - I mean the finding of the post later, not the thinking about you naked, lol:-) All we'll need to do is put "Phil naked shower" in the DSG search to find your pariyatti comments to discuss later:-) Anytime... On the run this end too as Jon works on a case and I get ready for our beach trip, but you'll be glad to hear, we're both clothed... All in the citta, of course.. Metta Sarah ======= #102287 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: chat with Scott sarahprocter... Hi Phil, p.s. P:> You'll say somethiing like "can seeing be understood, is seeing in the book" ... ... S: Ha!...and instead, as you saw in my reply, it was your 'naked-on-the-way to-the-shower-whilst-posting' comments that got my interest, so we think we know how others will respond, but we never even know about our own cittas from moment to moment, let alone the others'....:-)) S. #102288 From: Herman Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/11/15 kenhowardau > > Hi Nina and all, > > There have been several occasions in my life when I have experienced a > brief attack of claustrophobia. Thankfully, no great harm has been done, > but I worry that future attacks might be more serious. So I want to get > rid of this uncontrollable, irrational fear while I still can. > > > > Standard, conventional, advice is to 'practise.' Bring about a small, > manageable degree of claustrophobia and then calmly observe it. See it > for the silly, ineffectual thing that it really is. > > That might be the standard advice but it is not the way taught by the > Buddha. According to the Buddha, right now - in the present moment - > there is a terrible, uncontrollable reality that is sheer dukkha. It > can't be 'brought about' because it is already here - uninvited, > uncontrollable. Sheer dukkha! > > Therefore, whatever the presently experienced reality it might be - > visible object, eye consciousness, pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, > calm, fear - let's have right understanding now. It's the only way. :-) > > I thought this was a ripper post! (for non-Australians, that means it was good) Cheers Herman #102289 From: Herman Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 6. egberdina Hi Nina, 2009/11/13 Nina van Gorkom > Dear friends, > > Akusala can be described as an unhealthy state of mind, as unskilled, > blameworthy, faulty, unprofitable, as having unhappy results. Kusala > can be described as a healthy state of mind, as skilful, faultless, > profitable, as having happy results. > I have asked the following question before, and whatever answers I have received have not satisfied me. So I am asking again, sorry for falling into repetition, and please do not feel obliged to answer. The issue I have with your statement is that it seems that a/kusala requires future states for past a/kusala to be known; you mention results. Is past a/kusala just thinking, or else, how is past a/kusala directly known? Cheers Herman #102290 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:50 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (315, 6) and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, the Fives, sutta 6. Walshe: DN 33.2.1(6) 'Five hindrances: sensuality (kaamacchanda), ill-will (vyaapaada), sloth-and-torpor (thiina-middha), worry-and-flurry (uddhaca-kukkucca), skeptical doubt (vicikicchaa). (Pa~nca niivara.naani - kaamacchandaniivara.na.m, byaapaadaniivara.na.m, thinamiddhaniivara.na.m, uddhaccakukkuccaniivara.na.m) ---------- N: The co states that the hindrances obstruct citta, that they cover it up. The subco: they obstruct the attainment of jhaana and so on. Co: Sensuality, kaamacchanda, which has become a hindrance is eradicated by the magga-citta of the arahat. But the latent tendency of kaamaraaga, sensuous desire, which conditions the fetter of kaamaraaga is eradicated by the maggacitta of the anaagaami. The subco explains why this is said. Kaamacchandha includes bhaavaraaga, clinging to becoming. Becoming, bhaava, is subject to clinging for the cittas of the three planes (tebhuumaka, of kaamaavacara, ruupa and aruupa). The latent tendency of bhaavaraaga is eradicated by the magga-citta of the arahat. As to sloth-and-torpor (thiina-middha), thiina is sickness of citta and middha is sickness of the three (naama)khandhas (cetasikas). They are eradicated by the magga-citta of the arahat. As to agitation and worry (uddhaca-kukkucca), uddhaca is eradicated by the maggacitta of the arahat, and worry, kukkucca, is eradicated by the maggacitta of the anaagaami. ----------- N: In samatha the hindrances are temporarily suppressed and by the development of insight they will be seen as mere dhammas and they will be eradicated at the subsequent stages of enlightenment. The hindrances are among the objects of sa.tipa.t.thaana, classified under the Application of MIndfulness of Dhammas. Sensuality (kaamacchanda) and ill-will (vyaapaada) are bound to arise in our daily life whenever there are conditions for them. Through the development of satipa.t.thaana they can be seen as non-self. Sloth and torpor are bound to arise so long as one has not attained arahatship. We read in the Expositor (II, p. 490): Bhikkhus, the hindrance of sloth and torpor brings about darkness, blindness of vision, lack of knowledfge, cessation of insight, having its part in adversity, not leading to nibbaana (M.N. I, 115). Sloth and torpor destroy the capacity to act in a wholesome way, they are paralyzing. When there are sloth and torpor there is mental sickness, there is no energy for kusala. One is unable to apply oneself to daana, siila or bhaavana. One has no urgency to study the Dhamma or to listen to the Dhamma, to develop understanding. There are bound to be many moments of sloth and torpor, also when we do not feel lazy or sleepy. When we see the benefit of the development of right understanding, it can condition a sense of urgency, and then we can wake up from sleepiness and listlessness. There can be right attention instead of unwise attention which is the cause of sloth and torpor and all kinds of defilements. As to the hindrance of kukuccha, worry, we read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 60): Worry makes a person enslaved, he is possessed by it and cannot think of anything else. He has no peace of mind. It is among the hindrances which obstruct kusala. When afterthoughts are nagging someone he is not free to perform daana, siila or bhaavana. As to the hindrance of doubt, vicikicchaa, this is doubt about ultimate realities, about naama and ruupa, about cause and result, the four noble Truths, the Dependent origination. It is doubt about the Triple Gem, doubt about the attainment of enlightenment. It only arises with the first type of moha-muulacitta which is called: rooted in ignorance, accompanied by doubt (moha-muulacitta vicikicchaa sampayutta). It is affected by moha that does not know the true nature of realities. As we have seen, each kusala citta is supported by the sobhana cetasika wieldiness. Mental wieldiness is lacking when akusala citta arises. When doubt arises, there is no wieldiness that is necessary in applying oneself to daana, siila or bhaavanaa. Doubt is an obstruction to confidence in kusala. When one doubts about the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha or the right Path, there is no confidence to develop right understanding of realities. Doubt means exclusion from the cure of knowledge. As right understanding develops, there will be less doubt and more confidence in the Dhamma. ******** Co: Citta.m nivaarenti pariyonandhantiiti niivara.naani. Kaamacchando niivara.napatto arahattamaggavajjho. Kaamaraagaanusayo kaamaraagasa.myojanapatto anaagaamimaggavajjho. Thina.m cittagela~n~na.m . Middha.m khandhattayagela~n~na.m. Ubhayampi arahattamaggavajjha.m. Tathaa uddhacca.m. Kukkucca.m anaagaamimaggavajjha.m. Vicikicchaa pa.thamamaggavajjhaa. ******** Nina. #102291 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:56 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, Among the unwholesome mental factors which accompany akusala citta there are three which are called roots, namely: attachment, aversion and ignorance. Among the wholesome mental factors which accompany kusala citta there are three roots, namely: non-attachment, non-aversion and wisdom. The word root is used in the Buddhist teachings, since it is the firm support for the citta, being an important condition, just as the root of a tree is the firm support for the tree, the means of providing saps, necessary for its growth. The unwholesome roots of attachment, aversion and ignorance which can be associated with akusala citta have many shades and degrees; they can be coarse or more subtle. Attachment can be so strong that it motivates bad deeds such as stealing or lying, but it can also be of a more subtle degree, a degree of attachment which does not motivate any deed. Attachment can be expecting something pleasant for oneself, wishing, liking, longing, affection, self-indulgence, lust, possessiveness or covetousness. Even when we hope that other people like us, when we wish to have a good name, there are akusala cittas rooted in attachment. When we, for example, give a present to someone else there is generosity, but there can also be moments of hoping or expecting to gain something in return for our gift. Such expectations are motivated by clinging. Akusala is not the same as what is generally meant by sin or immorality. Also the more subtle degrees of attachment which do not motivate bad deeds are akusala, they are unhelpful, harmful. They are accumulated from moment to moment and thus attachment increases evermore. ****** Nina. #102292 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 14-nov-2009, om 23:58 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > Therefore, whatever the presently experienced reality it might be - > visible object, eye consciousness, pleasant feeling, unpleasant > feeling, > calm, fear - let's have right understanding now. It's the only way. :- ------- N: This is the only way. You also write: It is natural that we worry about the future. I do. I worry that Lodewijk will die one day and I will be alone in the world. Worry: we think of a story or situation. This I heard before, but it is good to be reminded: Kh S: < We remember people, stories and we do not know that there are only phenomena appearing for a very short moment. What arises does so because of conditions. If there were no conditions it could not arise. Very gradually phenomena can be understood as anattaa, as dhamma. They arise already and appear. They appear and can be understood. People and things we are thinking of are not real. We have to listen to the Dhamma. Now there must be a reality appearing that can be seen. We cannot manipulate it and it falls away very rapidly. We remember the appearance of a whole because we did not pay attention to the characteristic of what appeared. We think of people or flowers but did not pay attention to what appears through the eyesense and can be seen. Thinking of people and stories is not right understanding of the characteristic of the reality that appears through the eyes.> --------- Nina. #102293 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about nimitta sprlrt Hi Sarah, > S: Yes, so when the texts use 'person' or 'environment' in this context, I believe they're using such terms as a kind of shorthand for the actual realities - the cittas, cetasikas or rupas which are a condition here. What can I say... mixing up facts (paramattha dhammas, realities such as rpas) with fiction (paatti, concepts such as people) isn't the best approach to pariyatti, imo. Alberto #102294 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:15 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 6. nilovg Hi Herman, Op 15-nov-2009, om 8:25 heeft Herman het volgende geschreven: > The issue I have with your statement is that it seems that a/kusala > requires > future states for past a/kusala to be known; you mention results. > Is past > a/kusala just thinking, or else, how is past a/kusala directly known? -------- N: Past akusala kamma and kusala kamma, even long ago, can produce vipaaka, result, at the present time in the form of rebirth or the experience of a unpleasant or pleasant object through the senses. As to direct knowledge of what has just fallen away, this is another issue, another subject. This has nothing to do with past kamma. The citta with awareness and right understanding can have as object the characteristic of a reality that has just fallen away, such as seeing (vipaakacitta), generosity or anger, or whatever other reality that is just past. This is not thinking of a story, but the citta that develops understanding of the characteristic that appears as a mere dhamma. Nina. #102295 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:16 am Subject: Dhs. The arising of consciousness - the 8 great resultants, mahavipaka sprlrt Hi, Dhammasangani groups togheter the 8 great resultant cittas in a single paragraph, 498, filled with '... etc. ...'; the omitted text is given in full in the sections dealing with the corresponding 8 great kusala cittas (see msg # 101204) Alberto Dhammasangani: Kusala dhammas, akusala dhammas and abykata dhammas. .... The arising of consciousness (cittuppada) ... [54 cittas of the sensous plane] ... The eight great resultants (a.t.thamahvipka) 498. Which dhammas are abykata? At the moment when a resultant mind-consciousness element (vipka manovina dhthu) of the sensous sphere has arisen due to stored-up kusala kamma, accompanied by mental pleasure [1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th], / accompanied by neutral feeling, and associated with understanding [1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th], / and dissociated from understanding, [and unprompted (strong) 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th] / and prompted (weak), concerned about the object which is [either] visible, or udible, or smellable, or tastable, or tangible, or whatever-other-dhamma; at that moment there is contact, ... etc. ... and balance. These, and any other non-rpa dhammas arisen by conditions, are the dhammas that there are at that moment. These dhammas are abykata. Non-attachment is [here] an abykata root ... etc... Non-aversion is an abykata root ... etc... Non-delusion is an abykata root ... etc... These dhammas are abykata. DhsA: 498. ... All the sections have been abridged here, since they can be gotten from the text previously given [for the 8 maha-kusala cittas], and from which the meaning is to be inferred. 'Non-attachment is [here] an abykata [neither kusala nor akusala, i.e. vipka] root etc.' is stated in order to show the differences that exist [from a kusala or an akusala root]. As to the omitted (etc.) text it is to be understood thus: the division into basis of meritorious deeds, courses of kamma and doors of kamma, which applies to kusala [cittas] of the sensous plane, don't apply here. Why? Because here there is no intimation capability (aviattijanakato), no cause for results (avipkadhammato), and no going around in circles (appavattito). Regarding compassion and appreciative joy (karuna and mudita), included [in the kusala section] under 'or any other' [cetasika], having living beings as their objects, do not apply to resultants. ... [since] resultants of the sensous plane can have only small objects (paritta rammana). [i.e. sankhra dhammas only, concepts not being included in the threefold, paritta-mahanta-appamna dhammas and rammana, classification of dhammas and objects, see Dhs. 1026-1031.] ... And not only compassion and appreciative joy are missing, the abstentions (virati cetasikas) too: 'The five modes of higher training (sikkhpadni) apply only to kusala [cittas & cetasikas, i.e. to the first door of kamma, the mind]' (Vbh. 715). The unprompted, strong, and prompted, weak classification follows that of [the 8 maha] kusala as well as that of conditions. Hence an unprompted kusala can only have a strong resultant, and a prompted a weak [resultant]. And a strong, unprompted [resultant] arise by powerful conditions, and a prompted by weak [conditions]. ... ... They [the eight great resultants] result in four instances: as re-linking (patisandhi), life-continuum (bhavanga), termination (cuti), and as registration (tadrammana). How? - As re-linking, with two or three roots [non-attachment, alobha, non-aversion, adosa, and non-delusion, amoha], they result from excellent merits at the time of grasping the re-linking among human beings and devas of the sensous plane (kma avacara). - As life-continuum, after that same re-linking, for the allotted life-span, such as sixty or eighty years, again and again. - As registration of powerful objects in [all] six doors [processes]. - As termination at the time of death. Pli, Dhs: 498. Katame dhammā abyākatā? Yasmiṃ samaye kāmāvacarassa kusalassa kammassa katattā upacitattā vipākā manoviāṇadhātu uppannā hoti somanassasahagatā āṇasampayuttāpe somanassasahagatā āṇasampayuttā sasaṅkhārenape somanassasahagatā āṇavippayuttāpe somanassasahagatā āṇavippayuttā sasaṅkhārenape upekkhāsahagatā āṇasampayuttāpe upekkhāsahagatā āṇasampayuttā sasaṅkhārenape upekkhāsahagatā āṇavippayuttāpe upekkhāsahagatā āṇavippayuttā sasaṅkhārena rūpārammaṇā vāpe dhammārammaṇā vā yaṃ yaṃ vā panārabbha, tasmiṃ samaye phasso hotipe avikkhepo hoti pe ime dhammā abyākatāpe alobho abyākatamūlaṃpe adoso abyākatamūlaṃpe amoho abyākatamūlaṃpe ime dhammā abyākatā. DhsA. A.t.thamahaavipaakacittava.n.nanaa 498. Idaani a.t.thamahaavipaakacittaani dassetu.m puna katame dhammaa abyaakataatiaadi aaraddha.m. Tattha paa.liya.m nayamatta.m dassetvaa sabbavaaraa sa.mkhittaa. Tesa.m attho he.t.thaa vuttanayeneva veditabbo. Yo panettha viseso ta.m dassetu.m alobho abyaakatamuulantiaadi vutta.m. Yampi na vutta.m ta.m eva.m veditabba.m yo hi kaamaavacarakusalesu kammadvaarakammapathapu~n~nakiriyavatthubhedo vutto so idha natthi. Kasmaa? Avi~n~nattijanakato avipaakadhammato tathaa appavattito ca. Yaapi taa yevaapanakesu karu.naamuditaa vuttaa, taa sattaaramma.nattaa vipaakesu na santi. Ekantaparittaaramma.naani hi kaamaavacaravipaakaani. Na kevala~nca karu.naamuditaa, viratiyopettha na santi. `Pa~nca sikkhaapadaani kusalaanevaa'ti (vibha. 715) hi vutta.m. Asa`nkhaara_sasa`nkhaara_vidhaana~n_cettha kusalato ceva paccayabhedato ca veditabba.m. Asa`nkhaarikassa hi kusalassa asa`nkhaarikameva vipaaka.m, sasa`nkhaarikassa sasa`nkhaarika.m. Balavapaccayehi ca uppanna.m asa`nkhaarika.m, itarehi itara.m. ... Etaani hi catuusu .thaanesu vipaccanti pa.tisandhiya.m, bhava`nge, cutiya.m, tadaaramma.neti. Katha.m? Manussesu taava kaamaavacara_devesu ca pu~n~navantaana.m duhetuka_tihetukaana.m pa.tisandhi_ggaha.na_kaale pa.tisandhi hutvaa vipaccanti. Pa.tisandhiyaa viitivattaaya pavatte sa.t.thipi asiitipi vassaani asa`nkhyeyyampi aayu_kaala.m bhava`nga.m hutvaa, balavaaramma.ne chasu dvaaresu tadaaramma.na.m hutvaa, mara.nakaale cuti hutvaati. #102296 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, --- On Sun, 15/11/09, sprlrt wrote: >> S: Yes, so when the texts use 'person' or 'environment' in this context, I believe they're using such terms as a kind of shorthand for the actual realities - the cittas, cetasikas or rupas which are a condition here. ... A:>What can I say... mixing up facts (paramattha dhammas, realities such as rpas) with fiction (paatti, concepts such as people) isn't the best approach to pariyatti, imo. ... S: And yet this occurs throughout the Tipitaka, inc. the Abhidhamma - mixing the use of concepts and realities. This is why we have to study and consider very carefully. May I suggest you keep notes or a list of any points which it would be helpful to discuss further with KS in Bkk in Feb? Metta Sarah ======= #102297 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dutiya Migasaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah’s Faulty Personal Opinions sarahprocter... Dear Han, Suan & all, Han, thank you for your additional very helpful notes. --- On Sat, 14/11/09, han tun wrote: >> Suan: I discovered that a very important Pali phrase (nacirasseva) in the last paragraph of the above translation has been left un-translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi or its translation being omitted by Sarah perhaps as a typing error. If the translation of that Pali phrase were present, the following personal opinion of Sarah or of Bhikkhu Bodhi is wrong. ----------- *[Sarah: "eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyaan" - note, this is a formula commonly used to describe arahantship in many suttas. The Buddha has already explained to Migajaala in the first sutta that the "lone dweller" is the one who has abandoned craving as a partner.] ------------ --------- --------- >Han: The Pali text and English translation in question are as follows. Atha kho aayasmaa migajaalo eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto viharato nacirasseva yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariyam pabbajanti tadanuttaram brahmacariyapariyos aanam di.t.theva dhamme sayam abhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa upasampajja vihaasi. "Then, dwelling alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute, the Venerable Migajaala, by realizing it for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life entered and dwelt in that unsurpassed goal of the holy life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from the household life into homelessness. " ------------ --------- --------- Sarah: Also from the PTS Pali dictionary: eko vūpakaṭṭho appamatto ātāpī etc. (see arahant ii.B.), e. g. D iii.76; S i.117; ii.21, 244; iii.35, 73 sq.; iv.72; A iv.299. Cp. \\ 1. Arahant : (page 77) 151, 383; v.72, 90, 144, 222; A i.165; ii.211; iii.93; iv.88, 179, 302; v.155, 162; Sn p. 16; Pug 61, etc. -- B. eko vūpakaṭṭho appamatto ātāpī pahitatto ʻ alone, secluded, earnest, zealous, master of himself ʼ D i.177; ii.153 & continued with A: S i.140, 161; ii.21; iii.36, 74; iv.64; 2. Ātāpin : (page 98) 177 sq., 266 sq., 300, 457 sq.; v.343 sq.; Sn 926; Nd1 378; It 41, 42; Vbh 193 sq.; Miln 34, 366; Vism 3 (= viriyavā); DhA i.120; SnA 157, 503. -- Freq. in the formula of Arahantship "eko vūpakaṭṭho appamatto ātāpī pahitatto": see arahant II. B. See also satipaṭṭhāna. <-> Opp. anātāpin S ii.195 sq.; A ii.13; It 27 (+ anottappin). Ātāpeti Ātāpeti [ā + tāpeti] to burn, Nacira (adj.) [Sk. nacira=na+cira] not of long duration, short Sn 694; gen nacirass' eva after a short time, shortly Sn p. 16; J iv.2, 392; Miln 250. ... S: I still see nothing amiss with my comment "or personal opinion" *(above) which Suan took exception to:" 'eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyan' - note, this is a formula commonly used to describe arahantship in many suttas." I think the dictionary refs and notes above confirm this is correct. I agree that BB might have used "after a short while" instead of "in this very life", but I don't see anything omitted or why this makes my "personal opinion" incorrect. In any case, it was Suan who asked me to type out this particular translation:-)). In any case, it's been helpful for me, so I'm grateful for the request and further feedback. Metta Sarah ======== #102298 From: Ken O Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. ashkenn2k Dear Nina and KenH thanks for your reminders especially Nina to the Sutta Fives. I like to share this nice quote from the Perfections pg 54 <> Cheers Ken O #102299 From: Ken O Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. ashkenn2k Dear Ken H Share this with you :-) Maybe I should also contribute to the diary From Expositor pg 81 <> * is footnote number 3 -Sa-vasa. In other words, the theory of absolute free-will is denied-Tr Cheers Jen O #102300 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Wed, 11/11/09, upasaka@... wrote: ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- H:> I've always understood ma~n~nanaa to refer to atta-defiled mentality, beset by reification of subject and object. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- S: According to the texts, such as the the Mulapariyaya Sutta & its comy, ma~n~naana refers to ta.nhaa (craving), maana (conceit) or di.t.thi (wrong view ). For example, "this is mine" (eta"m mama) refers to craving (without wrong view), "this am I" (eso'ham asmi) to conceit (without wrong view) and "eso me attaa" to wrong view. ... >As we read in the beginning of the Muulapariyaaya Sutta, the worldling "conceives (himself as) earth (pathavii); he conceives (himself) in earth; he conceives (himself apart) from earth; he conceives 'earth as mine'; he delights in earth. What is the reason? Because it has not been fully understood by him, I declare." >Isn't this like now - taking the visible object or hardness for being 'my arm' or 'a computer', or 'my ache' or 'a noise outside that lasts'.... ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- H:> It's more than that. For there not to be conceived of a seen, an unseen, a to-be-seen, or a seer is to thoroughly reject reification. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---- S: In the section on the learner (sekha, i.e. sotapanna - anagami inc.) in the Mulapariyaaya Sutta, it says "let him not conceive earth" (pathavi"m maa ma~n~nii). The sekhas have no more wrong view of any kind. The commentary says: "He (S: the learner) cannot be described either as one who conceives or as one who does not conceive. What is the purport here? Because he has not abandoned any of the conceivings, the worldling is described as one who conceives. The arahat, who has abandoned them all, is described as one who does not conceive. The learner has abandoned the conceiving of views, and has diminished the others. Therefore he cannot be described as one who conceives, like the worldling, nor can he be described as one who does not conceive, like the arahat." S: My point is just that the definition is wider than the one you suggest, to include craving and conceit without wrong view. ... >>S:Lots of perversions and proliferations, lots of distorted thinking throughout the day, regardless of whether we think of ourselves as "Theravada", "Mahayana" or any other labels, wouldn't you say? ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- H:>Yes. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- S: We agree on the important point! Btw, I enjoyed your exchange with Freewaru and you made many helpful points in it, I thought. Metta Sarah ======== #102301 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, (& Connie), --- On Thu, 12/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: >"There's no way that one delighting in company can touch even momentary release." Heeding the Solar Kinsman's words, wander alone like a rhinoceros.. . Abandoning offspring, spouse, father, mother, riches, grain, relatives, & sensual pleasures altogether, wander alone like a rhinoceros. "This is a bondage, a baited hook. There's little happiness here, next to no satisfaction, all the more suffering & pain." Knowing this, circumspect, wander alone like a rhinoceros. " - Snp 1.3 ... S: see what I wrote to Herman yesterday. Connie, TB used to have some detailed commentary notes on this and other Snp suttas on ATI, but when I checked the link yesterday, I couldn't find them. Have they been removed? Do you have a copy? ... >Can you please explain how you accomplish kaya, citta, upadhi seclusion? How can one have kaya or citta viveka while watching tv for example? Is it even possible or desirable to do so? See MN66 ... S: In the ultimate sense, there can be even kaya viveka at this moment (or whilst watching tv). At the moment of living alone with the reality appearing without ma~n~natti (conceiving) with craving, conceit or wrong view, there is viveka. But, and a big BUT, never a 'you' or 'one' who accomplishes or has any viveka. If one thinks it's not possible or not desirable for there to be viveka at this moment, or whilst driving a car or watching TV, it suggests there's no understanding of what seclusion, living alone or satipatthana really is. So, there has to be more study and reflection on the realities of life now. Did you read and have any comments on my recent message to you on this topic of kaya-viveka?: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101499 I know you have many different ideas and that's fine. I continue to write so that we may reflect more and more deeply on what we read. Metta Sarah ======= #102302 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Who says what? was: another understanding sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all,*James & all, --- On Thu, 12/11/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >I get so confused with 'who' is saying 'what'. Suggestion: use your first letter, and after your words finish with: ----- That is, if you like this. ... S: I like it - I also get confused sometimes! It's a busy list and it helps a lot when we all make it clear "'who' is saying 'what'". *Btw, my thanks also to James for loading your lovely pic! Any shy oldcomers like Suan and any newcomers like Freewaru & Staisha, pls add your pics to the member album and anyone, any family members to the 'significant others' one. James is always very willing to help anyone who needs assistance - even an old driving licence sent to him in the mail can do the trick:-)). Metta Sarah ======= #102303 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha on violence. Use Metta! sarahprocter... Hi Alex, (Herman, Ken O & all), I thought you (and Ken O) gave very wise comments and this was a very relevant sutta passage you quoted. We're on the same page here, for sure:-) --- On Mon, 9/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: >>H: If I can ask you, if you see a group of persons treating another >person very badly as you are walking down the street, what do you do? ... A:> This is sutta quotes, use loving kindness. Violence cannot be stopped with violence. >"Phagguna, it is not suitable for the son of a clansman, who has gone forth as a homeless to spend much time with the bhikkhunis. Therefore Phagguna, when anyone blames the bhikkhunis in your presence, you should give up that worldly interest and worldly thoughts. Phagguna, there you should train like this: `My mind will not change, I will not utter evil words, I will abide with compassion and loving kindness without an angry thought.' Again Pagguna, if anyone beat those bhikkhunis with their hands or with clods, or sticks, or weapons, you should train as above. Again Phagguna, if anyone blames you in the face, you should train as above. If anyone beats you with hands, or clods, or sticks, or weapons, you should give up that worldly interest and worldly thoughts. Phagguna, there you should train like this: `My mind will not change, I will not utter evil words, I will abide with compassion and loving kindness, without an angry thought'. <...> http://metta. lk/tipitaka/ 2Sutta-Pitaka/ 2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1 /021-kakacupama- sutta-e1. html ... Metta Sarah ======= #102304 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's last word sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- On Fri, 13/11/09, colette wrote: >I'm outside the THERAVADAN DOCTRINE and I'm applying the Madhyamika concept of a single "individuality" for lack of a better word i.e. PAST DHARMA, PRESENT DHARMA, FUTURE DHARMA are all the same dharma this is no differentiation between the labels, thus exhibiting Shunayata, however in the case we are engaged in I had fun with your thought that the Buddha actually had this alleged "last word" which means that it must replicate the first word, no? .. S: Sorry, Colette. I appreciate your explanation, but none of it makes any sense to me and don't understand your question at the end. Metta Sarah > >C: Sarah, are you suggesting what the Buddha's first words when he immerged from the incubator? > ... > S: No! #102305 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dutiya Migasaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah’s Faulty Personal Opinions sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, Oops! Let me try again with the Pali dict. entries: --- On Sun, 15/11/09, sarah abbott wrote: Sarah: Also from the PTS Pali dictionary: >eko vuu paka.t.tho appamatto aataapii etc. (see arahant ii.B.), e. g. D iii.76; S i.117; ii.21, 244; iii.35, 73 sq.; iv.72; A iv.299. Cp. \\ 1. Arahant : (page 77) 151, 383; v.72, 90, 144, 222; A i.165; ii.211; iii.93; iv.88, 179, 302; v.155, 162; Sn p. 16; Pug 61, etc. -- B. eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto 'alone, secluded, earnest, zealous, master of himself' D i.177; ii.153 & continued with A: S i.140, 161; ii.21; iii.36, 74; iv.64; 2. aataapin : (page 98) 177 sq., 266 sq., 300, 457 sq.; v.343 sq.; Sn 926; Nd1 378; It 41, 42; Vbh 193 sq.; Miln 34, 366; Vism 3 (= viriyavaa); DhA i.120; SnA 157, 503. -- Freq. in the formula of Arahantship "eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto": see arahant II. B. See also satipa.t.thaana. <-> Opp. anaataapin S ii.195 sq.; A ii.13; It 27 (+ anottappin). Aataapeti [aa + aapeti] to burn, Nacira (adj.) [Sk. nacira=na+cira] not of long duration, short Sn 694; gen nacirass' eva after a short time, shortly Sn p. 16; J iv.2, 392; Miln 250.< .... Metta Sarah ======= #102306 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about nimitta sprlrt Hi Sarah, You'll have to take your notes yourself, I can't make it for Bkk in Feb, sorry... - Alberto > May I suggest you keep notes or a list of any points which it would be helpful to discuss further with KS in Bkk in Feb? #102307 From: han tun Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dutiya Migasaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah’s Faulty Personal Opinions hantun1 Dear Sarah and Suan, I looked at the Google for "nacirasseva" and found a few suttas quoted there. I selected one: MN 26 Ariyapariyesana Sutta, and I found the following Pali passage. Yathaanusi.t.tha.m tathaa pa.tipajjamaanaa nacirasseva yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajanti, tadanuttara.m brahmacariyapariyosaana.m di.t.theva dhamme saya.m abhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa upasampajja viharissathaa"ti. Then, I looked at the translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi and I found the following translation. [paragraph 27] Practising as you are instructed, by realizing for yourselves here and now through direct knowledge you will soon enter upon and abide in that supreme goal of the holy life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from the home life into homelessness. Han: here, "nacirasseva" was translated as "soon", and "di.t.theva dhamme" was translated as "here and now". I still do not fully understand why the translation of "nacirasseva" is very important. Is there something which I do not know? Respectfully, Han #102308 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Who says what? was: another understanding nilovg Dear Sarah and Freawaru. Op 15-nov-2009, om 13:12 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > any newcomers like Freewaru & Staisha, pls add your pics to the > member album and anyone, any family members to the 'significant > others' one. ------ N: Yes, now I like to see Freawaru's daughter! Nina. #102309 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Ken) - In a message dated 11/14/2009 11:08:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi KenH, 2009/11/15 kenhowardau > > Hi Nina and all, > > There have been several occasions in my life when I have experienced a > brief attack of claustrophobia. Thankfully, no great harm has been done, > but I worry that future attacks might be more serious. So I want to get > rid of this uncontrollable, irrational fear while I still can. > > > > Standard, conventional, advice is to 'practise.' Bring about a small, > manageable degree of claustrophobia and then calmly observe it. See it > for the silly, ineffectual thing that it really is. > > That might be the standard advice but it is not the way taught by the > Buddha. According to the Buddha, right now - in the present moment - > there is a terrible, uncontrollable reality that is sheer dukkha. It > can't be 'brought about' because it is already here - uninvited, > uncontrollable. Sheer dukkha! > > Therefore, whatever the presently experienced reality it might be - > visible object, eye consciousness, pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, > calm, fear - let's have right understanding now. It's the only way. :-) > > I thought this was a ripper post! (for non-Australians, that means it was good) ------------------------------------------------------ I agree that the "sense" of Ken's post is good, but I see the matter somewhat otherwise. Ken is quite right that when the claustrophobic experience is already underway, it is, in the sense of its already being present and oppressive, too late. Two comments, though: 1) There are mental actions that can be taken that will moderate the experience, especially if prior practice has occurred, and 2) "Having" a right understanding adequate to dealing with the suffering will not occur by luck, but only by prior useful action, including study and contemplation and application. ============================= With metta, Howard P. S. I suffer from claustrophobia. Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102310 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/15/2009 6:44:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: >>S:Lots of perversions and proliferations, lots of distorted thinking throughout the day, regardless of whether we think of ourselves as "Theravada", "Mahayana" or any other labels, wouldn't you say? ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- H:>Yes. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- S: We agree on the important point! Btw, I enjoyed your exchange with Freewaru and you made many helpful points in it, I thought. ------------------------------------------------------ :-) Thanks! (Of course, what that means is that i ad some things you agree with for change! ;-) ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102311 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:01 am Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi again, Sarah - In a message dated 11/15/2009 10:49:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Of course, what that means is that i ad some things you agree with for change! ============================ That was meant to be "Of course, what that means is that I said some things you agree with for change!" With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102312 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Formal instructions in VsM truth_aerator Hi Sarah, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: #102271 > I would like few clarifications: Are you saying that one can ignore the VsM Part II chapter on concentration? Why was it written then? How then is one supposed to achieve citta-visuddhi without 40 kamatthana objects? Also, you seem to put understanding first. But doesn't this understanding depend on Samadhi, and Samadhi depend on virtue (sila) ? Remember the path is outlined as sila-samadhi-panna With metta, Alex #102313 From: "connie" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:33 am Subject: Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? nichiconn Dear Sarah, "This is a bondage, a baited hook. There's little happiness here, next to no satisfaction, all the more suffering & pain." Knowing this, circumspect, wander alone like a rhinoceros. " - Snp 1.3 ... S: see what I wrote to Herman yesterday. Connie, TB used to have some detailed commentary notes on this and other Snp suttas on ATI, but when I checked the link yesterday, I couldn't find them. Have they been removed? Do you have a copy? ... c: I've a copy of TB's Snp 1.3 " Revised: Mon 2004.11.08 " that seems to be the same as what is on ATI now. Sorry. connie #102314 From: "Christine" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:49 pm Subject: Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Ajahn Brahmavamso christine_fo... Hello all, I've been away on Retreat for a week or so and, in the meantime, Bhikkhu Bodhi has revised his original response to the ordination ceremony by Brahamavamso in Perth: Nov. 6, 2009 Dear Ven. Sujato, Over the past few days I have obtained more information about the background to the bhikkhuni ordination in Perth than I had available to me last week, when I wrote my letter of congratulations. This more recent information has given me a fuller and clearer picture of the implications of the ordination. While I did expect that Ajahn Brahm and you would be ostracized by the wider WPP Sangha, at the time I wrote I did not realize that relations between monastic communities and among the individual monks that comprise this tradition were as tight and communally determined as they actually are. In the light of my recent insights into the way this tradition functions, I have been compelled to revise the opinion I expressed in the letter I sent you last week and which I approved being posted on your website. I would appreciate it if you would also post this letter on the same website to round out my assessment of the ordination. I first want to make it absolutely clear that in principle I fully support bhikkhuni ordination. I regard the women who have taken this ordination, whether from lineages based in the so-called "Mahayana countries" or from the recently emergent Theravada bhikkhunis, as legitimately ordained bhikkhunis, fully entitled to participate in the Sangha acts prescribed for them in the Vinaya. I also believe that a full-scale revival of the Bhikkhuni Sangha and its unqualified acceptance by the Bhikkhu Sangha is an imperative for the Theravda tradition in our time. At the same time, however, in view of the intimate communal structure of the WPP Sangha and the close bonds between the abbots of the monasteries belonging to this tradition, I have been regretfully forced to the conclusion that Ajahn Brahm and yourself were at fault for proceeding in the hasty and secretive way in which you conducted the ordination. In my opinion, in view of the fact that Ajahn Brahm had been an important and much respected member of this community, he should have discussed the issue openly and fully at a meeting with all its prominent representatives, and patiently attempted to prevail upon them with the art of persuasion. You might object that he (and yourself) have tried doing so for years without success, but I am not sure that there has not been substantial progress in this area. Don't forget that several of the European abbots and siladharas attended the conference at Hamburg, which in itself marked a significant step forward. Further, and especially, a World Abbots' Meeting was scheduled to be held at Bodhinyana Monastery in December, with the bhikkhuni issue given a prominent place on the agenda. You would only have had to wait patiently for another six weeks to bring the issue to a head. I believe that, even if you both had felt that the urgency of bhikkhuni ordination had reached a "tipping point," the meeting in December would have served as the ideal venue to press for a final decision. Even if you were pessimistic that the meeting would have had fruitful results, it still could have served as a final testing ground. If, at that meeting, the international abbots had approved bhikkhuni ordination, at least for Western Australia, you would have been at liberty to arrange the ordination in harmony with the wider WPP Sangha (at least the international branches) and thus hurt feelings would have been minimized. If, on the other hand, the proposal to conduct bhikkhuni ordination was flatly rejected, Ajahn Brahm could have made a reasonable choice. He could either have decided to withdraw from the WPP network and arrange the ordination as a fully autonomous elder monk; or else, while still belonging to the WPP Sangha, he could have conducted the ordination in defiance of the prevailing decision and risked excommunication. In such an event, at least, the decision to proceed with bhikkhuni ordination would have been made openly and after a final attempt at persuasion had failed. Six more weeks of waiting, and the issue could have been decided by a simple up or down vote. As it is, by conducting the ordination in a secretive way, without giving sufficient heed to the opinions and feelings of others in his tradition, he has caused divisions, belligerence, and pain which, with more circumspection, might have been avoided or at least reduced. The opinion I express here is in full accord with the qualifications that I made in the full version of my Hamburg presentation, which I will cite as an appendix to this letter. Please be assured that, while I express these reservations about the way Ajahn Brahm proceeded in this affair, I still lend him my moral support just as much as I support the revival of bhikkhuni ordination in the Theravda tradition." http://sujato.wordpress.com/ metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---Life is only as long as an outbreath if you don't breathe in again--- #102315 From: "Icaro" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:42 pm Subject: Re: Formal instructions in VsM icarofranca Hi Alex, all. > I would like few clarifications: > > Are you saying that one can ignore the VsM Part II chapter on >concentration? Well, Buddhaghosa is very direct on definitions. On Vism. Part II, Chapter III (at the beginning), he states something like: " Concentration is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to cover ir all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose and would, besides, lead to distraction;so we shall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, calling concentration profitable unification of mind". The author is sufiiciently honest to confess that it would be difficult to make a stand on these matters, and uses an instrumental definition to start on. "Profitable" ? It sounds strange. > > Why was it written then? > How then is one supposed to achieve citta-visuddhi without 40 kamatthana objects? Sometimes the author uses the 40 Kamatthana objects as a step-by-step course on mindfulness, sometimes he uses one or other Kasina as an approach to Samatha and Jhana. Certain Kasinas are so much attached on body perceptions to be fitted to achieve higher grounds on Jhana. > > > Also, you seem to put understanding first. But doesn't this >understanding depend on Samadhi, and Samadhi depend on virtue(sila) ? Again the old question about how Panna arises... > > Remember the path is outlined as > sila-samadhi-panna Thats so. Sila-Samadhi-Panna, however, are an unifying mode of the Noble Path higher principle. Not an amalgamated set of categories or a comprise of ideas. Mettaya Icaro ( back again!) #102316 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:19 pm Subject: Re: Formal instructions in VsM kenhowardau Welcome back, Icaro! I don't have much belief in ESP but just yesterday - for the first time in ages - I was wondering if we would ever see you again at DSG. And here you are! What a coincidence! :-) Ken H #102317 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:23 pm Subject: Re: Formal instructions in VsM truth_aerator Hi Icaro, Sarah, Jon, KenH, KenO, Nina and all, >--- "Icaro" wrote: > > Hi Alex, all. > > > I would like few clarifications: > > > > Are you saying that one can ignore the VsM Part II chapter on >concentration? > > Well, Buddhaghosa is very direct on definitions. > On Vism. Part II, Chapter III (at the beginning), he states something like: " Concentration is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to cover ir all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose and would, besides, lead to distraction;so we shall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, calling concentration profitable unification of mind". > > The author is sufiiciently honest to confess that it would be difficult to make a stand on these matters, and uses an instrumental definition to start on. "Profitable" ? It sounds strange. > > But why not answer this important question: Are any of 40 Kamatthana subjects required to attain Arhatship for people capable of attain Arhatship living today (suppose to be neyya class) ? What about Ascetic practices? Are they required for Arhatship for us? What about for reaching Stream-Entry? Without answering the above question it seems to me that some people here a) Really reinterpret some passages to avoid literal physical seclusion, meditation, and effort b) Totally ignore certain sections (*) that do not fit with their different and un-common interpretation of Dhamma. (*) VsM chapters on Ascetic practices, on Samadhi, on 40 Kammatthanas, Basically the first two purifications sila-visuddhi and citta-visuddhi. It is like trying to build a house without digging the Earth and bringing material, but with lots of planning, considering and reading. What did the people of Buddha's time do? Why did they work so hard and suffered through many privations and put their lives at risk by meditating in forest, jungles, rather than reading in the safety of ones own castle/library/etc !? Why they needed so much hard work, and what makes you think that we are somehow better and don't need to work that hard? With metta, Alex #102318 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. kenhowardau Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > I thought this was a ripper post! Thanks Herman. If we can see the present dhamma-arammana as it really is (anicca, dukkha and anatta) then we can see how all conditioned dhammas really are. "All conditioned dhammas" includes any pain, death or panic (etc) that may arise in the future. As they all certainly will! So what? Let them do their worst.:-) Ken H #102319 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. kenhowardau Hi Nina, ------- <. . .> N: > It is natural that we worry about the future. I do. I worry that > Lodewijk will die one day and I will be alone in the world. ------- We both think we are going to need courage and detachment when future crises unfurl. But, as you wrote in your previous post, it takes courage and detachment to face the present object with understanding. In the future, just like now, there will be only dhammas. Ken H #102321 From: "Icaro" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:41 pm Subject: Re: Formal instructions in VsM icarofranca Well, thanks for the warm greetings, all you good people! > > But why not answer this important question: Alex, you tied in a very large set of inquiries in these questions. Sometimes I even think that good and old anamoli hasn,t got all answers to every question that can be raised about his remarkable translation! However, some clarification can be made. > Are any of 40 Kamatthana subjects required to attain Arhatship for >people capable of attain Arhatship living today (suppose to be neyya >class) ? At the very end of Chapter VIII, Buddhaghosa relates that "(...)He acquired happiness with the Blessed One as object, and by augmenting his insight he reached Arahantship". In resume, by meditating on recollections of Buddha's surmounted qualities, keeping mind focused on such high attributes, His virtues, His dialogues, His life, or in the recollections of Dhamma or Sangha,the virtues of Sangha, Its merits, deeds and decisions, I will testify an augment on my insights, ending with the Arahantship as a role. As stated, it seems easy, isnt it ? > > What about Ascetic practices? Are they required for Arhatship for >us? What >about for reaching Stream-Entry? There are some curious remarks on ascetic practices at buddhist way on Vism...but it will require some research on text. Be patient, Alex! Mettaya, Icaro #102322 From: han tun Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:37 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (68) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 8. Characteristics of Ruupas (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. [Han: Kindly note that I have inserted the numbering and the Pali words for ruupas shown below.] ---------------------------------- Origination, continuity, decay and impermanence are characteristics common to all sabhaava ruupas. They do not have their own distinct nature, thus, they are asabhaava ruupas. These characteristics are not produced by the four factors of kamma, citta, food and temperature. Ruupas have been classified as twentyeight kinds. Summarizing them, they are: 1. solidity (or extension) (pathavii) 2. cohesion (aapo) 3. temperature (tejo) 4. motion (vaayo) 5. eyesense (cakkhu pasaada) 6. earsense (sota pasaada) 7. nose (smellingsense) (ghaana pasaada) 8. tongue (tastingsense) (jivhaa pasaada) 9. bodysense (kaaya pasaada) 10. visible object (ruuparamma.na) 11. sound (saddaaramma.na) 12. odour (gandhaaramma.na) 13. lavour (rasaaramma.na) 14. femininity (itthi bhaava) 15. masculinity (purisa bhaava) 16. heart-base (hadaya vatthu) 17. life faculty (jiivita ruupa) 18. nutrition (aahaara ruupa) 19. space (pariccheda ruupa) 20. bodily intimation (kaaya vi ~n~natti) 21. speech intimation (vaci vi~n~natti) 22. lightness (ruupassa lahutaa) 23. plasticity (ruupassa mudutaa) 24. wieldiness (ruupassa kamma~n~nataa) 25. origination (upacaaya ruup) 26. continuity (santati ruupa) 27. decay (jarataa ruupa) 28. impermanence (aniccataa ruupa) ------------------------------- Chapter 8. Characteristics of Ruupas (to be continued) with metta, Han #102323 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:56 pm Subject: Re: Formal instructions in VsM truth_aerator Hello Icaro, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Icaro" wrote: #102321 > To whom does recollection of the Buddha applies? Does it apply to all temperaments? Answer is no. Lets see what VsM says: [(1) RECOLLECTION OF THE ENLIGHTENED ONE] --- VsM VII,2 2. [198] Now a meditator with absolute confidence2 who wants to develop firstly the recollection of the Enlightened One among these ten should go into solitary retreat in a favourable abode and recollect the special qualities of the Enlightened One, the Blessed One, as follows: 'That Blessed One is such since he is accomplished, fully enlightened, endowed with [clear] vision and [virtuous] conduct, sublime, the knower of worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, theteacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed' (M.i,37; A.iii,285). 3. Here is the way he recollects: 'That Blessed One is such since he is accomplished, he is such since he is fully enlightened,... he is such since he is blessed'he is so for these several reasons, is what is meant. === A) One needs to have "absolute confidence" in this skeptical age b)"...should go into solitary retreat in a favourable abode..." As it comes to solitary retreat, I hope we all remember what it states about it in VsM, With metta, Alex #102324 From: "Staisha Perry" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:05 pm Subject: Re:[dsg] present moment diary. staisha_perry Thank you, very well put ---------- peace in the way-staisha ------Original Message------ From: Nina van Gorkom #102280 #102325 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:43 pm Subject: Calm Power! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Inner Tranquillity is a Mental Power! In what sense is calm a power? In the 1st jh ana this mental calm does not waver even when attacked by the 5 mental hindrances, thus is calm a power! In the 2nd jhana this serenity does not flicker even by thoughts or thinking, thus is calm a power... In the subtle mental sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this tranquil composure does not hesitate being faced with void empty nothingness, thus is calm a power! Such silenced imperturbability can neither waver, nor vacillate, nor hesitate in any fluctuating indecisiveness despite being provoked by agitation, confusion, distraction or perturbation, therefore is calmness a power. Such is the power of calm: The calm power! Vism 703 <...> Have a nice calm day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #102326 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. kenhowardau Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Ken H > > Share this with you :-) Maybe I should also contribute to the diary > --------------------- Yes, please do. The more the merrier. ---------------------------- KO: > From Expositor pg 81 < * is footnote number 3 -Sa-vasa. In other words, the theory of absolute free-will is denied-Tr ------------------------------- "Absolute" free-will could be understood as "complete" free-will - as distinct from partial - or it could be understood as "ultimate" free-will - as distinct from conventional. I has to be the second one, hasn't it? Ken H #102327 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal instructions in VsM nilovg Dear Icaro, Op 16-nov-2009, om 1:41 heeft Icaro het volgende geschreven: > Well, thanks for the warm greetings, all you good people! ------ N: I join in the welcome greetings. I had just thought of you recently, wondering how is Icaro. Glad you are back, Nina. #102328 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 16-nov-2009, om 1:28 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > We both think we are going to need courage and detachment when future > crises unfurl. But, as you wrote in your previous post, it takes > courage > and detachment to face the present object with understanding. > > In the future, just like now, there will be only dhammas. ------- N: We cannot be reminded enough of this. Only dhammas, also sadness about a loss is only a dhamma. When the unhappy feeling is very strong, it is difficult, though. Nina. #102329 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Physical Phenomena (68) nilovg Dear Icaro, what a coincidence. I never forget your bootcamp, when you were packing and realizing that all these rupas arise in daily life. Nina. Op 16-nov-2009, om 2:37 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Ruupas have been classified as twentyeight kinds. Summarizing them, > they are: > > 1. solidity (or extension) (pathavii) > 2. cohesion (aapo) > 3. temperature (tejo) > 4. motion (vaayo) > 5. eyesense (cakkhu pasaada) > 6. earsense (sota pasaada) > 7. nose (smellingsense) (ghaana pasaada) > 8. tongue (tastingsense) (jivhaa pasaada) > 9. bodysense (kaaya pasaada) > 10. visible object (ruuparamma.na) > 11. sound (saddaaramma.na) > 12. odour (gandhaaramma.na) > 13. lavour (rasaaramma.na) > 14. femininity (itthi bhaava) > 15. masculinity (purisa bhaava) > 16. heart-base (hadaya vatthu) > 17. life faculty (jiivita ruupa) > 18. nutrition (aahaara ruupa) > 19. space (pariccheda ruupa) > 20. bodily intimation (kaaya vi ~n~natti) > 21. speech intimation (vaci vi~n~natti) > 22. lightness (ruupassa lahutaa) > 23. plasticity (ruupassa mudutaa) > 24. wieldiness (ruupassa kamma~n~nataa) > 25. origination (upacaaya ruup) > 26. continuity (santati ruupa) > 27. decay (jarataa ruupa) > 28. impermanence (aniccataa ruupa) #102330 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:02 pm Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, Clinging is deeply rooted and it is important to know our deep rooted tendencies. Affection is a form of attachment which is in society not regarded as harmful. One feels affection for parents, relatives, children or friends. It should be understood, however, that when there is affection, there is actually clinging to ones own pleasant feeling, derived from being in the company of a loved one. When there is mourning for someone who has died, there is sadness conditioned by clinging to oneself. Affection conditions fear of loss, aversion and sadness. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Part VIII, Kindred Sayings about Headmen, 11) that the Buddha, while staying at Uruvelakappa, explained to the headman Bhadragaka that clinging is the cause of dukkha. We read that Bhadragaka said: Wonderful, lord! Strange it is, lord, how well said is this saying of the Exalted One: Whatsoever dukkha arising comes upon me,all that is rooted in desire. Desire is indeed the root of dukkha. Now, lord, there is my boy,Ciravsi is his name. He lodges away from here. At the time of rising up, lord, I send off a man, saying: Go, my man, inquire of Ciravsi. Then, lord, till that man comes back again, I am in an anxious state, fearing lest some sickness may have befallen Ciravsi. Now, what do you think, headman? Would sorrow and grief, woe, lamentation and despair come upon you if your boy Ciravsi were slain or imprisoned or had loss or blame? Lord, if such were to befall my boy Ciravsi, how should I not have sorrow and grief, woe, lamentation and despair? But, headman, you must regard it in this manner: Whatsoever dukkha arising comes upon me,all that is rooted in desire, is joined to desire. Desire is indeed the root of dukkha. It is impossible to be without clinging so long as the state of perfection has not been reached. We cannot force ourselves not to have clinging, but it is beneficial to realize when there is clinging, even when it is of a subtle degree, and when there is detachment. There is attachment when we like landscapes, when we enjoy shopping or talking to friends, or even when we get up in order to fetch a glass of water. Attachment can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. When there is indifferent feeling there can still be attachment, but we may not notice it. ***** Nina. #102331 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:22 am Subject: Re: Reply to Ken O /with a new subject heading ptaus1 Hi Ken, Alex, Freawaru, all, (Re #102159) Ken: > Thanks for helping out. I am way out of my depth, and looking forward to > further comments. (DSG has discussed this sutta before, it's sure to be > in Useful Posts - somewhere!) pt: I checked UP, there were indeed several discussions on this topic, I think Jon's post 7821 (attached below) sums it up the best it's interesting that both paths 2 and 4 can be considered dry insight paths (at least according to commentary). However I'm not clear on what is the actual difference between paths 1 and 3 I saw path 3 often mentioned on DSG (insight based on examining jhana factors after exiting), but not on path 1. I mean the first path seems to be more like what Alex is advocating (if I understand him correctly) first a lot of samatha, and mainly samatha, and then at some later point, insight. Also, I didn't find the reason why mental abilities can be developed only up to arahatship, but not afterwards. Best wishes pt Jon's post 7821 (the most relevant part): On my reading, 2 of the 4 approaches given here (ie. numbers 2 and 4 below) indicate a jhana-less approach. (By 'jhana-less' I mean in the sense of not requiring prior development of mundane jhana. But all 4 ways are accompanied by concentration that is jhana-equivalent in its force.) Here are the 4 ways again, with extracts from footnotes to the translation [passages in square brackets are mine]: 1. After developing samatha The footnote says that this refers to one who makes tranquillity the vehicle of his practice (samatha-yaanika). Tranquillity here refers to access concentration, the jhanas or the formless attainments. 2. Before developing samatha The commentary reads: "This refers to one who by his natural bent first attains to insight and then, based on insight produces concentration (samadhi)." The sub-com reads: "This is one who makes insight the vehicle (vipassanaa-yaanika)." 3. In conjunction with the development of samatha [This is the instance of insight being 'based on' jhana. The insight arises after emerging from jhana, and takes the jhana moments as its object. This is the 'yoked/conjoined' instance.]. 4. By overcoming the corruptions (ie without any part being played by samatha) The footnote reads: 'According to AA [the commentary], the "agitation" (uddhacca) meant here is a reaction to the arising of the ten "corruptions of insight" when they are wrongly taken as indication path-attainment. The term dhammavitakka, "thoughts about higher states" is taken to refer to the same ten corruptions. ' #102332 From: Herman Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangha politics in Thailand egberdina Hi KenO, 2009/11/14 Ken O > Dear Herman > > there are some matters are not for people like me to say any opinoin, it > is only for Buddha to judge. > Unfortunately, Buddha is not with us. > In your context, we still treat all beings with loving kindness. I could > ask them to stop, but if they continue, I have to let them be. Just like > Buddha also cannot stop a war that decimate the clan he is born from. We > cannot tell people what to do, at least we can restrain ourselves. When we > condemn people, it is us that create the dosa. > I understand what you are saying. But the fact is that we live in a world where there are people who prevent others from pursuing their rightful goals. Taking a position against such domination, and seeking to end it, is not condemnation or dosa, IMO. > > Let me quote from Perfections pg 98 > When someone has done wrong, he is likely to be blamed by society. Yes, agreed. In the same way, when a monk commits an offence, they are censured by the sangha. > If we believe we should join in judging the person and blaming him time > again, the citta is aksuala... > I do not understand. When members of the sangha join in censuring a monk, is that akusala? But the point of our discussion is that there is disagreement within the sangha, and there is no Buddha to rule on the matter. So where does that leave us? Personally, I do not think that passivity in the face of harm is a sign of loving kindness, or an expression of wisdom. Cheers Herman #102333 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:31 am Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 9. nilovg Dear friends, The Saddhammapajjotik, the Commentary to the Mahniddesa, in the Commentary to Chapter 8, the Purified (Suddhatthaka) explains about the latent tendencies: What is the meaning of the expression anusaya? It means that it lies dormant. What is the meaning of lying dormant? It means that it cannot yet be eradicated. These defilements lie dormant in the succession of beings cittas because they cannot yet be eradicated. Therefore they are called latent tendencies, anusaya. In the Commentary to the Group of Discourses, the Paramatthajotik, in the Commentary to the Snake Chapter we read: ... The akusala dhammas lie dormant in the succession of cittas because they cannot yet be eradicated. Therefore, these akusala dhammas are called latent tendencies. The following akusala dhammas are called latent tendencies: sense desire, aversion, conceit, wrong view, doubt, craving for existence and ignorance. They are called roots (mla) in the sense of foundation for the accompanying dhammas. These are called akusala because they are sorrowful, and they are called roots (mla) because they are the foundation for the accompanying dhammas that are akusala. They are akusala because they are dangerous and they have dukkha, suffering, as result. In the Saddhammapajjotik, the Commentary to the Claniddesa, on Poslas Questions [2] , the meaning of latent tendencies has been explained as follows: The word saya is used for inclination or disposition that lies dormant and that is a supporting condition for beings. This word designates beings accumulation in the succession of cittas of wrong view or right view, sensuous clinging or renunciation. The word anusaya is used because the defilements lie dormant and persist, they lie dormant in the succession of beings cittas. This word is a name for sense desire etc. that have become strong. The words saya and anusaya are joined into one word saynusayo which is actually a twin-compound (dvanda compound). The notions of behaviour (carita) and disposition (adhimutti) are in the text combined with saya (bias) and anusaya (latent tendency). Thus, the wording: knowledge of beings conduct and dispositions is combined with the wording: knowledge of beings inclinations and underlying tendencies, into one expression: the knowledge of beings biases and underlying tendencies, sayanusaya .na. --------- [2]: See The Group of Discourses V, Poslas Questions. ******** Nina. #102334 From: Herman Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known egberdina Hi Ken O and Jon, 2009/11/14 Ken O > Dear Herman > > H: But why use the same word rupa to describe both what is experienced, > and what is not experienced? > > KO: To me it is important to know between mentality and material. Rupa > has the same characteristics whether it is internal or external. I am afraid I do not understand this at all. Jon has recently expressed the same sentiment, and rather than have the same discussion twice, perhaps you can join in on that discussion? Or he can join in here? That other discussion is called "charactoristic of citta". Just so you know where I am coming from, I'll make some more comments below. > Just like heat is the same whether it is experience by us or not > experience by us. I do not understand what basis you have for saying these things. Heat implies experienced heat. How can you even talk about the characteristic of something unexperienced? The characteristic IS the experience. > Also hotness felt by someone is the same felt by another, there cannot be > any difference in the characteristics of the temperature rupa felt by > body sense citta arisen due to kamma. Why not? > But during the javana process it could be different between two persons, > some people may like hot while others may like cold. There is the > difference but characteritistic are the same for the rupa. > I will await to read your reasonings behind these assertions. Cheers Herman #102335 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta ptaus1 Dear Sarah, > S: According to the texts, such as the the Mulapariyaya Sutta & its comy, > ma~n~naana refers to ta.nhaa (craving), maana (conceit) or di.t.thi (wrong view ). For example, "this is mine" (eta"m mama) refers to craving (without wrong view), "this am I" (eso'ham asmi) to conceit (without wrong view) and "eso me attaa" to wrong view. pt: What is the English for "esso me atta"? "This is my self"? This seems very interesting as it might help distinguish between conceit and wrong view in real life - I understand that abhidhamma says that the two cannot arise together, but I just cannot separate them in experience as it seems conceit is possible only with wrong view... Thanks. Best wishes pt #102336 From: Herman Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja egberdina Hi Sarah, #102261 > > I know we disagree in our interpretations about what the seclusion that the > Buddha advocated was, so we can leave it here if you like. > > I am happy to leave it if you like, but I wonder if you have considered that one of the major differences between one who can wander alone and a householder is that the latter is defined by the property they have. The very fact of having property of any kind is a statement of clinging. One simply cannot wander alone while a householder, even in the metaphorical sense of Maha Kaccana. Cheers Herman #102337 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? ptaus1 Dear Nina, > N: When it is one's natural inclination, it is good. But laypeople > who play musical instruments (I do) need not give up what they are > used to doing. There can be a beginning of awareness and > understanding (I am careful here, we are beginners) of sound, or > lobha, or hearing, or thinking (of the melody). pt: I'd like to ask, do you ever experience metta while playing? I also play (guitar) sometimes just for myself, and yes, there's lobha, dosa, thoughts, sometimes just the sound, but sometimes, it seems like metta arises. I mean it feels exactly like metta, but there's no object for it - like other people or even myself. I think that according to abhidhamma, metta would have to have a concept (like another being) for the object of citta in order to arise. I'm not sure therefore whether metta can arise on it's own, without an object, so to speak? Thanks. Best wishes pt #102338 From: "Icaro" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Physical Phenomena (68) icarofranca Hi Nina! > Dear Icaro, > what a coincidence. I never forget your bootcamp, when you were > packing and realizing that all these rupas arise in daily life. Yes! In that occasion, thinking on Niyama and its flow of rupas was one of my worries as a newly assigned military officer - as a matter of fact, it was the first time Ive reached the Right Understanding about Niyama! Nowadays, Ive managed to be accepted as a Researcher on le brsillien bureau de poids et mesures - INMETRO. I was placed in fifth place on examinations, ahead more than 300 postulates. And now, with the main idea of a scientific lab at my disposal...I begin to think that being a banker would be more profitable! Niyama urges! ...or people at INMETRO lab will begin to cry: "Please!!! Please dont go!!! You are important to us!!!" ^_^ Mettaya Icaro > Nina. > Op 16-nov-2009, om 2:37 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > > > Ruupas have been classified as twentyeight kinds. > #102339 From: Herman Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta egberdina Hi Jon, 2009/11/15 jonoabb > Hi Herman > > (102153) > > Persons are entities that have a life span (they exist for a period of > time) > > and during that time they do things. That is exactly what is being > > attributed to cittas, is it not? > > =============== > > J: Yes, in the conventional sense persons are considered to be > "entities". And yes, they do things. > > However, cittas are not said to do things, but merely to have a function. > I'm afraid I do not see the similarity you are trying to point to. > That seems like a linguistic difference to me, but I am happy to leave it. > =============== > > I have no difficulty with the idea of the consciousness that experiences > > being different from the object that is experienced. What is the problem > > with that? > > > > Mainly that it is only an idea, it is a thought reality only. The division > does not exist apart from thinking. > =============== J: Yes, as I said, it is an idea. But the question as to whether or not > the distinction exists apart from thinking is another matter. The teachings > (as I read them) say the distinction does exist, but that only by developed > panna can it be directly known. > I guess the teachings will come into their own when developed panna does indeed directly know the difference :-) There does remain the possibility of being deluded about panna, I suppose. > > > =============== > > > So let me ask you: Is it your understanding that rupas arise only as > > > object of consciousness? > > > > > > > No, it is not. But an experienced rupa is not identical with an > > unexperienced one. There seem to be two different definitions of rupas > that > > are being intermixed in the discussion. There are rupas (forms) that are > > contacted, and that are not contacted: > > > > "Now if internally the eye is intact but externally forms do not come > into > > range, nor is there a corresponding engagement, then there is no > appearing > > of the corresponding type of consciousness. If internally the eye is > intact > > and externally forms come into range, but there is no corresponding > > engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of > > consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and externally forms > > come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is > the > > appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness." MN28 > > > > That, however, does not equate to an uncontacted form being identical > with a > > contacted form. An uncontacted form lacks any characteristic. It may as > well > > be nibbana. > > =============== > > J: I do not see in the quoted passage any basis for the assertion that an > uncontacted form lacks a characteristic. My understanding of the teachings > is in fact that the characteristic(s) of a given dhamma pertain at all times > regardless of whether or not they are the object of consciousness. > I know you wouldn't just make this up, so could I trouble you to dig up even just a single reference to justify that understanding? It might sound like a linguistic thing, but I really don't think you, or the teachings, can reasonably refer to a given, yet unexperienced, dhamma. Unexperienced dhammas are not given. > > > =============== > > The current scope of the discussion will do just fine for the moment, Jon > > :-) > > =============== > > J: Right, even an issue as narrow as this could take us some time to > resolve ;-)) > > Yes, I think so too, but I also seriously think we are making enormous progress. Cheers Herman #102340 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? nilovg Dear pt, Op 16-nov-2009, om 10:56 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > I'd like to ask, do you ever experience metta while playing? I also > play (guitar) sometimes just for myself, and yes, there's lobha, > dosa, thoughts, sometimes just the sound, but sometimes, it seems > like metta arises. I mean it feels exactly like metta, but there's > no object for it - like other people or even myself. I think that > according to abhidhamma, metta would have to have a concept (like > another being) for the object of citta in order to arise. I'm not > sure therefore whether metta can arise on it's own, without an > object, so to speak? ------- N: Metta has as object a person, thus, a concept. But the citta with metta can be the object of another citta with awareness and understanding. Metta itself is a cetasika, a reality, not a concept. I have an opportunity for metta when playing, like this morning. Our household helper comes once a week and she has chronic pain. The music helps her, means a lot to her, and so Lodewijk and I play together for her for a little while (harpsichord and recorder) even when we do not feel like playing so early in the morning. As you say, there is lobha, dosa, quite a lot of akusala. Anything can happen, it depends on conditions. No self who can change realities. Nina. #102341 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known upasaka_howard Hi, Herman and Ken - In a message dated 11/16/2009 4:39:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Ken O and Jon, 2009/11/14 Ken O > Dear Herman > > H: But why use the same word rupa to describe both what is experienced, > and what is not experienced? > > KO: To me it is important to know between mentality and material. Rupa > has the same characteristics whether it is internal or external. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I am confused by what is being said by you two here. "Internal rupa" and "external rupa" as far as the *suttas* are concerned seem to refer to material content of consciousness (or to presumed mind-independent, in-the-world, materiality) that appears as internal to the body in the former case, and that appears as external to the body in the latter case. It is NOT a distinction between object and subject, as you are putting it, Herman, nor as a distinction between mental and material, as you are putting it, Ken. I think the internal-external dichotomy is misplaced in this conversation, and is actually irrelevant to it. Herman, you, I believe, are disputing a dual-category scheme for rupas: The existence of two categories of rupa, 1) material object-content of consciousness (sights, bodily sensations, heard sounds, flavor sensations and odor sensations, and so on), and 2) alleged in-the-world correlates of these, namely mind-independent "matter-things." (I say "alleged" in this latter case, as these can only be inferential.) Ken, it seems to me that you are also disputing such a dual-category scheme, but in a different way from Herman. It seems to me that the dual-category view can be replaced in either of two alternative ways, each of which countenances but one category of rupas: a) Herman (and Howard's) perspective: The perspective that the only rupas are phenomena arising and ceasing as material content of experience (or consciousness), i.e., the phenomenalist solution that, while distinguishing knowing from known, rejects their independence (or separability), and b) Ken's (and Jon's and other KS admirer's) perspective: The perspective that the only rupas are mind-independent phenomena that mentality can somehow make contact with, so that, for example, seeing amounts to eye-door consciousness making contact with a mind-independent "visible object" entity, a dualistic (mind/matter) solution. ---------------------------------------------------- I am afraid I do not understand this at all. Jon has recently expressed the same sentiment, and rather than have the same discussion twice, perhaps you can join in on that discussion? Or he can join in here? That other discussion is called "charactoristic of citta". Just so you know where I am coming from, I'll make some more comments below. > Just like heat is the same whether it is experience by us or not > experience by us. I do not understand what basis you have for saying these things. Heat implies experienced heat. How can you even talk about the characteristic of something unexperienced? The characteristic IS the experience. -------------------------------------------------- This is just the opting for a phenomenalist view, a perspective I happen to share. Ken's is opting for an objectivist view in which the heat arises as a mind-independent entity that is *contacted* by an arising consciousness. In each case, there is only one type of heat rupa. ----------------------------------------------- > Also hotness felt by someone is the same felt by another, there cannot be > any difference in the characteristics of the temperature rupa felt by > body sense citta arisen due to kamma. Why not? > But during the javana process it could be different between two persons, > some people may like hot while others may like cold. There is the > difference but characteritistic are the same for the rupa. > I will await to read your reasonings behind these assertions. Cheers Herman ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102342 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known nilovg Hi Howard, Herman, Ken O, I do not know whether this sutta text helps. I do not wish to mix in into your debate. Just the sutta. Nina. Sutta: In the Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Elephants Footprint (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 28) we read that Sriputta taught the monks about the four Great Elements. We read about the element of earth or solidity, which is translated here as extension: ....And what, your reverences, is the element of extension? The element of extension may be internal, it may be external. And what, your reverences, is the internal element of extension? Whatever is hard, solid, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, that is to say: the hair of the head, the hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow of the bones, kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentary, stomach, excrement, or whatever other thing is hard, solid, is internal.... If the body can be seen as only elements, the wrong view of self can be eradicated. Solidity can be internal or external, outside the body. Solidity is also present in what we call a mountain or a rock, in all material phenomena. Sriputta reminded the monks of the impermanence of the element of extension: There comes a time, your reverences, when the element of extension that is external is agitated; at that time the external element of extension disappears. The impermanence of this ancient external element of extension can be shown, your reverences, its liability to destruction can be shown, its liability to decay can be shown, its liability to change can be shown. So what of this shortlived body derived from craving? There is not anything here for saying, I, or mine or I am.... Op 16-nov-2009, om 14:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > I am confused by what is being said by you two here. "Internal rupa" > and "external rupa" as far as the *suttas* are concerned seem to > refer to > material content of consciousness (or to presumed mind-independent, > in-the-world, materiality) that appears as internal to the body in > the former case, > and that appears as external to the body in the latter case. #102343 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:46 am Subject: On the path, effort, and repetition truth_aerator Hi Pt, KenH, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Ken, Alex, Freawaru, all, > > (Re #102159) > > Ken: > > Thanks for helping out. I am way out of my depth, and looking forward to > > further comments. (DSG has discussed this sutta before, it's sure to be > > in Useful Posts - somewhere!) > > pt: > I checked UP, there were indeed several discussions on this topic, I think Jon's post 7821 (attached below) sums it up the best it's interesting that both paths 2 and 4 can be considered dry insight paths (at least according to commentary). > > However I'm not clear on what is the actual difference between paths 1 and 3 I saw path 3 often mentioned on DSG (insight based on examining jhana factors after exiting), but not on path 1. I mean the first path seems to be more like what Alex is advocating (if I understand him correctly) first a lot of samatha, and mainly samatha, and then at some later point, insight. > What I am advocating is not "just" samatha and then use insight. Samatha itself requires lots of wisdom and it is not simple "lets tranquilize oneself". Tranquilizer drugs could do just that. > Also, I didn't find the reason why mental abilities can be >developed only up to arahatship, but not afterwards. > > Best wishes > pt Arhatship is the perfection of liberation of the mind from the taints. That is why you can't develop liberation further. But in any case, even if you advocate dry intellectual reading & considering, one of its required conditions for development is "Development as repetition" "What is 'development as repetition'? Here a practitioner practices repetition in the morning, repetition at noon, repetition in the evening, repetition before eating, repetition after eating, repetition in the first watch, repetition in the middle watch, repetition in the last watch, repetition by night, repetition by day, repetition by night and day, repetition in the dark half of the moon, repetition in the bright half of the moon, repetition in the rainy season, repetition in the cool season, repetition in the hot season, repetition in the first phase of life, repetition in the middle phase of life, repetition in the last phase of life. This is development as repetition. " Pts Book 1 section 4, paragraph 134 (end of it) just about #135. Pg 31 of Ptsm (2002) Book. With metta, Alex #102344 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:44 am Subject: Objective reality truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, Once I was in a car with my parents and driving some other person to the course. They were talking and have said to him that "There is mind independent objective matter that exists whether it is cognized or not". He said "There is no objective reality". To this my parents replied very powerfully "So we are driving in the car and you are flying on the plane...". He changed the subject. So if you and someone else where in the car, and you have said "there is no objective reality" to which the other person would say "so I am driving the car and you are flying in a plane." So Howard, how would you reply? With metta, Alex #102345 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Objective reality upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 11/16/2009 2:45:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: So if you and someone else where in the car, and you have said "there is no objective reality" to which the other person would say "so I am driving the car and you are flying in a plane." So Howard, how would you reply? ------------------------------------------------ First of all I would never say that there is no objective reality. For me, nibbana is the only reality, with all else being mere appearance. Secondly, I would say that people with similar or related kamma share similar or related experiences and "reside" in the same realm of experience. Thirdly, my interpretation of several teachings of the Buddha leads me to view him as a phenomenalist. The bottom line: In place of using 'objectivity', I am more inclined to using 'intersubjectivity'. ---------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ============================== With metta, Howard Emptiness of Consciousness /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) #102346 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Objective reality truth_aerator >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > The bottom line: In place of using 'objectivity', I am more inclined > to using 'intersubjectivity'. > ---------------------------------------------- > Hello Howard, So am I understanding you right to intend this: Whenever multiple people have similar experience, (ex: driving in a the same car), all it is that they are having the similar "experience" of sensory & mental cognition. Right? To follow up, I have another question: How do you know that there are other people, other minds? In dreams I can encounter various people (they mostly try to beat me up) who do not behave the way I want them. And they too can communicate and be located in the same dream world area. So what is the major difference between world of dreams and real waking world? ( Lets ignore the sense of touch and strong pain feelings) With metta, Alex #102347 From: "Icaro" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Objective reality icarofranca Hi Alex, all. Respectfully butting in... > How do you know that there are other people, other minds? > > > In dreams I can encounter various people (they mostly try to beat me >up) who do not behave the way I want them. And they too can >communicate and be located in the same dream world area. So what is >the major difference between world of dreams and real waking world? > ( Lets ignore the sense of touch and strong pain feelings) This reminds me the first time Ive watched the "Belle de Jour" movie, with Catherine Deneuve. At that time I felt something unfamiliar with the scenes of La Deneuve being beated and so on, under the cold lookings of her husband - Ive inquired "but whats the matter with this pal anyway ? What a silly scene!" A friend of mine answered " All this is only a dream for her..." "Ooooh yes? So I am just spending my money and my time with this silly fantasies!!!" I stayed patiently till the end of this...movie...and never received back the money and the time Ive spent on it. So, about the questions including the external world of our senses, there are only two approaches - as Howard pointed out: either there are a real, solid, concrete world beyond the representations delivered by our senses, or we must be satisfied with the fenomenology of reality - we will never know if there are a real brick or table or porcupine over there. At the Abhidhamma Sangaha this is a empty question: with the mundane mind, we get the reality really real with the "Smiling Citta" ( whatever it can be or not be... I am smiling anyway), and with the Supramundane Citta we get the Paramattha Dhammas (Citta, Cetasika, Rupa or Nibbana - a reality beyond any concept of reality, whatever it can be). Realism or Berkeleys Solipsism ? Take your pick. Mettaya Icaro #102348 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Objective reality truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Icaro" wrote: > > Realism or Berkeleys Solipsism ? Take your pick. > > Mettaya > > Icaro First of all, Realism is at least of two kinds. Direct and Indirect Realism. Indirect realism says that even though we cognise mental representation of external world (rather than external world itself), external world still is and is the source of those mental representations. When it comes to Idealism then it can be of multiple kinds as well. Idealism that posits many minds and Solipsism which posits one mind. And there is of course various degrees of Skepticism. With metta, Alex #102349 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:39 pm Subject: Conditionality notes I've made to myself truth_aerator Hello all, I've made a little note for myself and decided to share it here as well. What are necessary conditions for arising of eye-consciousness (seeing)? Eye faculty, external visible object, light and attention. Eye faculty is a subtle matter found in the material body. Material body depends on food as nutriment and Primary Physical Elements. Primary physical elements depend on previous primary physical elements. Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with of eye-contact as nutriment, eye-sensation, perception of visual form, and eye-volition. Thus it is a mental & physical process. What are necessary conditions for arising of ear-consciousness (hearing)? Ear faculty, external sound object, space and attention. Ear faculty is a subtle matter found in the material body. Material body depends on food as nutriment and Primary Physical Elements. Primary physical elements depend on previous primary physical elements. Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with of ear-contact as nutriment, ear-sensation, perception of sound, and ear-volition. Thus it is a mental & physical process. What are necessary conditions for arising of nose-consciousness (smelling)? Nose faculty, external odor object, air-medium and attention. Nose faculty is a subtle matter found in the material body. Material body depends on food as nutriment and Primary Physical Elements. Primary physical elements depend on previous primary physical elements. Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with of nose-contact as nutriment, nose-sensation, perception of smell, and nose-volition. Thus it is a mental & physical process. What are necessary conditions for arising of tongue-consciousness (tasting)? Tongue faculty, taste object, cohesion and attention. Tongue faculty is a subtle matter found in the material body. Material body depends on food as nutriment and Primary Physical Elements. Primary physical elements depend on previous primary physical elements. Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with of tongue-contact as nutriment, tongue-sensation, perception of taste, and tongue-volition. Thus it is a mental & physical process. What are necessary conditions for arising of body-consciousness (touching)? Body faculty, tangible object, hardness and attention. Body faculty is a subtle matter found in the material body. Material body depends on food as nutriment and Primary Physical Elements. Primary physical elements depend on previous primary physical elements. Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with of body-contact as nutriment, body-sensation, perception of touch, and body-volition. Thus it is a mental & physical process. What are necessary conditions for arising of mind-consciousness (awareness)? Mind faculty, mental object, sub-consciousness (bhavanga) and attention. Mind faculty is a partially subtle matter and mostly mental (non-physical). Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with of mind-contact as nutriment, mind-sensation, perception of abstract ideas, and mind-volition. Thus it is mostly mental. [the above 6 then go here: ->] Mental factors (nama) depend on previous mental and (indirectly on) physical factors starting with birth in this life. On what does first instance of mentality and materiality in this life depend on? On rebirth linking (manovinnana). Rebirth linking (manovinnana) depends on (sankhara or manosancetana) done in previous life by the mind (nama). Kamma formations which includes mental intention (Sankhara or manosancetana) is impelled by Ignorance (avijja), a mental factor that is conditioned by previous ignorance. Due to ignorance, one craves, clings, does volitional actions and is becoming "someone". From mental volition/fabrication (sankhara or manosancetana) at the moment of death the final mentality conditions the first moment of consciousness in the new life, consciousness which makes mentality and materiality develop in the next life. With mentality and materiality there is basis for 6 sense faculties which include gross 6 sense organs and subtle materiality that actually forms the basic for cognition. Dependent on the eye, forms, light and attention, there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of them is eye-contact. With eye-contact as a requisite condition there is feeling born of eye contact, perception of forms, volition toward forms, and attention. Dependent on the ear, sound, space and attention, there arises ear-consciousness. The meeting of them is ear-contact. With ear-contact as a requisite condition there is feeling born of ear contact, perception of sounds, volition toward sounds, and attention. Dependent on the nose, aromas, air and attention, there arises nose-consciousness. The meeting of them is nose-contact. With nose-contact as a requisite condition there is feeling born from nose-contact, perception of smells, volition toward smells, and attention. Dependent on the tongue, flavors, liquidity and attention, there arises tongue-consciousness. The meeting of them is tongue-contact. With tongue-contact as a requisite condition there is feeling born from tongue-contact, perception of tastes, volition toward tastes, and attention. Dependent on the body, tangible, hardness and attention there arises consciousness at the body. The meeting of them bodily-contact. With bodily-contact as a requisite condition there is bodily-feeling, tactile perception, volition toward touches, and attention. Dependent on the mind, mental objects, sub-consciousness and attention, there arises consciousness at the mind. The meeting of them is mental-contact. With mental-contact as a requisite condition there is mental-feeling, perception of ideas, volition toward ideas, and attention. If mind has ignorance, then on account of ignorance on does volitional actions based on feeling from 6 senses, which conditions craving, clinging and becoming. With becoming, there is rebirth consciousness which supports the mentality and materiality in future life. With maturing of mentality materiality, there is birth. With birth as a structural conditions there is aging, sickness, death, pain, grief and despair. Any comments, corrections, suggestions? With metta, Alex #102350 From: Herman Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. egberdina Hi Howard and KenH, 2009/11/16 > Hi, Herman (and Ken) - > > > > Therefore, whatever the presently experienced reality it might be - > > visible object, eye consciousness, pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, > > calm, fear - let's have right understanding now. It's the only way. :-) > > > > > I thought this was a ripper post! (for non-Australians, that means it was > good) > ------------------------------------------------------ > I agree that the "sense" of Ken's post is good, but I see the matter > somewhat otherwise. Ken is quite right that when the claustrophobic > experience is already underway, it is, in the sense of its already being > present > and oppressive, too late. Two comments, though: 1) There are mental > actions > that can be taken that will moderate the experience, especially if prior > practice has occurred, and 2) "Having" a right understanding adequate to > dealing with the suffering will not occur by luck, but only by prior > useful > action, including study and contemplation and application. > ============================= > I didn't think that KenH precluded what you are saying. In terms of present moment only, what is there is simply what is happening - there is no doer in it. Though what is happening is no doubt conditioned by what is past, what is past was also once just a present moment, no doer in it. In some cases of claustrophobia, the condition will worsen over time, in others it will stay the same or improve. If in your case the condition moderated (which would be very pleasing for both you and me), was it luck (uncertain conditions) or right understanding that led to prior useful action? And if the latter, what brought about the prior right understanding? > With metta, > Howard > > P. S. I suffer from claustrophobia. > I'm sorry to hear it. What is worse, claustrophobia, or having a son who tells everyone on Facebook that you have a new wife :-) (I laughed and laughed when I saw that one) Cheers Herman #102351 From: Herman Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/11/16 kenhowardau > > Hi Herman, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > > > > I thought this was a ripper post! > > Thanks Herman. If we can see the present dhamma-arammana as it really is > (anicca, dukkha and anatta) then we can see how all conditioned dhammas > really are. > > "All conditioned dhammas" includes any pain, death or panic (etc) that > may arise in the future. As they all certainly will! > > So what? Let them do their worst.:-) > > Ahhhh, such developed braveness :-) Cheers Herman #102352 From: "colette" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known ksheri3 Good Morning, I was enjoying the heck out of this post but then reached the point where Herman took away my enjoyment by saying that he was gonna sit down and wait for something to happen, suddenly, in that instant of the concept called TIME, I heard Elton John singing "found dead on the phone" and just as instantly recalled my original rationale for disposing of this accused device called the "phone": why wait for this or that call when I know that those people are nothing but liars, are nothing but drug dependents constantly foreging for drugs, not too dissimilar from the industry squirrel who is constantly searching, foreging, for food to store for those long winter days/nights. WAIT? Isn't that behavior copyrighted and Trademarked by DAFFY DUCK? Surely, all "Sitting Ducks" know of the assembly line manufacturing process? This explanation was really a pleasure to read Howard, thank you for your kindness in considering that some people are not that astute and knowledgable about the subtle distintions between Pali and Sandskrit, subtle distinctions in these immense Suttas, etc. > Howard: > I am confused by what is being said by you two here. "Internal rupa" > and "external rupa" as far as the *suttas* are concerned seem to refer to > material content of consciousness (or to presumed mind-independent, > in-the-world, materiality) that appears as internal to the body in the former case, > and that appears as external to the body in the latter case. It is NOT a > distinction between object and subject, as you are putting it, Herman, nor > as a distinction between mental and material, as you are putting it, Ken. I > think the internal-external dichotomy is misplaced in this conversation, > and is actually irrelevant to it. > Herman, you, I believe, are disputing a dual-category scheme for > rupas: The existence of two categories of rupa, 1) material object-content of > consciousness (sights, bodily sensations, heard sounds, flavor sensations and > odor sensations, and so on), and 2) alleged in-the-world correlates of > these, namely mind-independent "matter-things." (I say "alleged" in this > latter case, as these can only be inferential.) Ken, it seems to me that you are > also disputing such a dual-category scheme, but in a different way from > Herman. > It seems to me that the dual-category view can be replaced in either > of two alternative ways, each of which countenances but one category of > rupas: a) Herman (and Howard's) perspective: The perspective that the only > rupas are phenomena arising and ceasing as material content of experience (or > consciousness), i.e., the phenomenalist solution that, while distinguishing > knowing from known, rejects their independence (or separability) colette: sorry for interupting the flow of this thought but I couldn't hold back the clear distinction that you, Howard, are trying to make in the entire post, here. I enjoy the heck out of your ability to take these two conscious behaviors apart, to seperate them into two different categories, label each category, and then give characteristics for existance to each category, do you now currently, or have you ever worked for the magezine POPULAR MECHANICS since the same ability I'm speaking of is the ability to write those step by step instruction, directions, to do complex procedures like having intercourse, or transmitting social diseases, etc. For some reason robots produced on the assembly line cannot seem to function without Adult material instructing them on HOW TO HAVE SEX. I make this point because all creatures, all sentient beings, even one celled organisms instinctively know how to reproduce and do a very good job of it. But, we humans, we humans are so stupid that we require constant reminders from the generosity of the Adult Entertainment world, that remind us that "male fitting A goes in female fitting B", etc. My mistake as usual, or was it my mistake? When I think about it I don't see how a mistake could have been made since Howard is speaking of the complexity of a simple function which I was making a reference to an equality which exists between these two seperate events in hopes that at some point I can then transpose each seperate event, without difficulty, as being THE SAME EVENT. Knowing and Known as being the same event, hmmmmmm? Pardon me, Howard modified this simple thought, this equality, a condition of existance, by saying "INSEPERABILITY" which clears things up a bit. This plays into DEPENDENT ORIGINATION, "IF this THEN that..." type of rationale. Ahhhhhhhhhh, very clever! Lets play this a bit. THAT WHICH IS KNOWN is not RESULTANT PHENOMENA from the PROCESS of calculating or thinking? I deliberately hesitate to apply the word "KNOWING" in it's procedural definitions because I am seperating that which is known from the act of knowing. Sorry, I'm very happy to be dealing with this wisdom, in the morning when I'm fresh and ready to play but this little green man inside of me seems to pop up now and then with the script for the role of DEVIL'S ADVOCATE and I seem to enjoy taking that role often. This person that Howard cognizes and defines as not existing in a world that cannot allow the "known" to exist if this supposed "known" does not have a verifiable "knowing" preceding it so I just thought that I should be wary of this competitor being somewhere in the jungle and potentially ready to jump up and get me in my own jungle. I'm deliberately and intentionally seperating the two since if I can seperate the two then I can make this type of person vanish, disappear because their brain will not allow them to exist in a world that does not have the step by step procedure of verifying that which is known from the process of knowing. That same psychology and mental process of THE SITTING DUCK, the most dreaded parasite in the jungle, no? ------------------------ THIS ONE, THIS DEFINITION, GIVES ME TROUBLE, THOUGH. I ONLY HAVE A FEW MINUTES LEFT IN THIS HOUR SO I'LL COPY THIS AND SEND IT TO MY EMAIL SO THAT I CAN WORK ON THE ENTIRE POST LATER. There's just sooooo much here to deal with and I do love juggling. *********** , and b) > Ken's (and Jon's and other KS admirer's) perspective: The perspective that > the only rupas are mind-independent phenomena that mentality can somehow > make contact with, so that, for example, seeing amounts to eye-door > consciousness making contact with a mind-independent "visible object" entity, a > dualistic (mind/matter) solution. > ---------------------------------------------------- *********************************************** toodles, colette #102353 From: Herman Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known egberdina Hi Howard, 2009/11/17 > Hi, Herman and Ken - > > > H: But why use the same word rupa to describe both what is experienced, > > and what is not experienced? > > > > KO: To me it is important to know between mentality and material. > Rupa > > has the same characteristics whether it is internal or external. > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I am confused by what is being said by you two here. "Internal rupa" > and "external rupa" as far as the *suttas* are concerned seem to refer to > material content of consciousness (or to presumed mind-independent, > in-the-world, materiality) that appears as internal to the body in the > former case, > and that appears as external to the body in the latter case. It is NOT a > distinction between object and subject, as you are putting it, Herman, nor > as a distinction between mental and material, as you are putting it, Ken. > I > think the internal-external dichotomy is misplaced in this conversation, > and is actually irrelevant to it. > A very good analysis. I think you are right. <..........> > > > Just like heat is the same whether it is experience by us or not > > experience by us. > > > I do not understand what basis you have for saying these things. Heat > implies experienced heat. How can you even talk about the characteristic > of > something unexperienced? The characteristic IS the experience. > -------------------------------------------------- > This is just the opting for a phenomenalist view, a perspective I > happen to share. I like to think :-) that it is not so much opting for a view, but what is left when all views have been eliminated. But that is just me. #102354 From: "colette" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known ksheri3 Good Morning Nina, YES YOU DO KNOW! IN FACT, you know very well, that when you and I interact things happen or sparks fly, etc. Just a phrase. I had copied my reply to Howard, to my notebook then went to dig up the TATHATA, et al. I come back and find your post here, replacing the post from Howard that I was replying to. I can't tell you how much your post here, has exploded a dam that is blocking the natural flow of this hypothetical STREAM OF CONSCIOUSNESS. As I further reply, please remember that I have just been focusing on Tathata, Suchness, so that's very active, where I find your post that shows me how valuable the Middle Length Discourses, et al, are not because of the longevity but because of the tiny details that they possess and how those details can have such a monumental effect on the outcome of the thought, the outcome of the teachings, etc.; shows me how different the East psychology is from the West psychology in simple terms, in simple concepts, etc, the foundations are completely DIFFERENT and incompatible if it were possible to construct a new structure on an ancient foundation, construct a Western structure on an Eastern foundation, etc.; shown me this Eastern application of the word called EXTENSION used in this example of INTERNAL and EXTERNAL, wow, great show! I might as well ask you: taken from my notes that I just created in my research of Tathata or SUCHNESS I run across this word: NANATVA? Any ideas what this word means? Finally, interesting how you label Howard's discussion as a "debate" when I was considering it a game of "PONG". Sorry, but you have to be old enough from the early 1970s to remember the utter monotony of this new video game that was called PONG. I clearly remember the utter fascination I had with this game and how the cursor could be directed but the size of the boxes used to represent the cursor were so huge on the tiny screen that trying to get a feal for the geometry, the angels that the cursor's momentum would propel it in, was impossible to calculate or deduce, in my infantile mind. Then came Space Invaders and all these GALAXY games that employed the concept of momentum which overwhelmed my mind causing me to stick to the trajectory of a ball on a pool table or a ball in a pin ball machine that was generally made by Williams company in Chicago since BAlly sold it's pinball machine manufacturing abilities. This is not a debate it is nothing more than watching a cursor move across the screen yet we are dealing with such huge concepts on such a tiny screen that we cannot possibly figure out the directions the cursor is going in and will go in. Thanx for your interaction. Now I want to continue focusing on this SUCHNESS or TATHATA but with only 20 minutes left, today, I don't think I'll be getting back to Howard's great post that I was lucky enough to copy into my files. toodles, colette > Sutta: > In the "Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant's > Footprint" (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 28) we read that Sriputta > taught the monks about the four Great Elements. We read about the > element of earth or solidity, which is translated here as "extension": > > "....And what, your reverences, is the element of extension? The > element of extension may be internal, it may be external. And what, > your reverences, is the internal element of extension? Whatever is > hard, solid, is internal, referable to an individual and derived > therefrom, that is to say: the hair of the head, the hair of the > body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow of the bones, > kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentary, > stomach, excrement, or whatever other thing is hard, solid, is > internal...." <..> #102355 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Objective reality upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 11/16/2009 5:10:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, So am I understanding you right to intend this: Whenever multiple people have similar experience, (ex: driving in a the same car), all it is that they are having the similar "experience" of sensory & mental cognition. Right? To follow up, I have another question: How do you know that there are other people, other minds? -------------------------------------------- I don't know that. It is an inference - a belief. I COULD be wrong! What do you think, ..., er, never mind! ;-) ------------------------------------------- In dreams I can encounter various people (they mostly try to beat me up) who do not behave the way I want them. And they too can communicate and be located in the same dream world area. So what is the major difference between world of dreams and real waking world? ------------------------------------------------ When I wake up, I realize "Oh, I was dreaming." But that doesn't happen when I fall into dream sleep. OTOH, I think all our pre-awakening consciousness is much LIKE a dream. At least its unreality is becoming increasingly clear to me. ------------------------------------------------- ( Lets ignore the sense of touch and strong pain feelings) ------------------------------------------------- Why ignore anything? ------------------------------------------------ With metta, Alex ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102356 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:44 pm Subject: Conditionality notes I've made to myself truth_aerator Hello all, I've made a little note for myself and decided to share it here as well. What are necessary conditions for arising of eye-consciousness (seeing)? Eye faculty, external visible object, space, light and attention. Eye faculty is a subtle matter found in the material body. Material body depends on food as nutriment and Primary Physical Elements. Primary physical elements depend on previous primary physical elements. Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with eye-contact as nutriment, eye-sensation, perception of visual form, and volition toward visible object. Thus it is a mental & physical process. What are necessary conditions for arising of ear-consciousness (hearing)? Ear faculty, external sound object, air, space and attention. Ear faculty is a subtle matter found in the material body. Material body depends on food as nutriment and Primary Physical Elements. Primary physical elements depend on previous primary physical elements. Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with ear-contact as nutriment, ear-sensation, perception of sound, and volition toward sounds. Thus it is a mental & physical process. What are necessary conditions for arising of nose-consciousness (smelling)? Nose faculty, external odor object, air and attention. Nose faculty is a subtle matter found in the material body. Material body depends on food as nutriment and Primary Physical Elements. Primary physical elements depend on previous primary physical elements. Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with nose-contact as nutriment, nose-sensation, perception of smell, and volition toward smells. Thus it is a mental & physical process. What are necessary conditions for arising of tongue-consciousness (tasting)? Tongue faculty, taste object, liquidity and attention. Tongue faculty is a subtle matter found in the material body. Material body depends on food as nutriment and Primary Physical Elements. Primary physical elements depend on previous primary physical elements. Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with of tongue-contact as nutriment, tongue-sensation, perception of taste, and volition toward tastes. Thus it is a mental & physical process. What are necessary conditions for arising of body-consciousness (touching)? Body faculty, tangible object, solidity and attention. Body faculty is a subtle matter found in the material body. Material body depends on food as nutriment and Primary Physical Elements. Primary physical elements depend on previous primary physical elements. Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with of body-contact as nutriment, body-sensation, perception of touch, and volition toward touches. Thus it is a mental & physical process. What are necessary conditions for arising of mind-consciousness (awareness)? Mind faculty, mental object, sub-consciousness (bhavanga) and attention. Mind faculty is a partially subtle matter and mostly mental (non-physical). Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with of mind-contact as nutriment, mind-sensation, perception of abstract ideas, and volition toward ideas. Thus it is mostly mental. [the above 6 then go here: ->] Mental factors (nama) depend on previous mental and (indirectly on) physical factors starting with birth in this life. On what does first instance of mentality and materiality in this life depend on? On rebirth linking (manovinnana). Rebirth linking consciousness (manovinnana) depends on mental formations & intentions (sankhara or manosancetana) done in previous life by the mind (nama). Kamma formations which includes mental intention (Sankhara or manosancetana) is impelled by Ignorance (avijja), a mental factor that is conditioned by previous ignorance. Due to ignorance, one craves, clings, does volitional actions and is becoming "someone". From mental volition/fabrication (sankhara or manosancetana) at the moment of death the final mentality conditions the first moment of consciousness in the new life, consciousness which makes mentality and materiality develop in the next life. With mentality and materiality there is basis for 6 sense faculties which include gross 6 sense organs and subtle materiality that actually forms the basic for cognition. Dependent on the eye, forms, light, space and attention, there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of them is eye-contact. With eye-contact as a requisite condition there is feeling born of eye contact, perception of forms, volition toward forms, and attention. Dependent on the ear, sound, air, space and attention, there arises ear-consciousness. The meeting of them is ear-contact. With ear-contact as a requisite condition there is feeling born of ear contact, perception of sounds, volition toward sounds, and attention. Dependent on the nose, aromas, air and attention, there arises nose-consciousness. The meeting of them is nose-contact. With nose-contact as a requisite condition there is feeling born from nose-contact, perception of smells, volition toward smells, and attention. Dependent on the tongue, flavors, liquidity and attention, there arises tongue-consciousness. The meeting of them is tongue-contact. With tongue-contact as a requisite condition there is feeling born from tongue-contact, perception of tastes, volition toward tastes, and attention. Dependent on the body, tangible object, hardness and attention there arises consciousness at the body. The meeting of them bodily-contact. With bodily-contact as a requisite condition there is bodily-feeling, tactile perception, volition toward touches, and attention. Dependent on the mind, mental objects, sub-consciousness and attention, there arises consciousness at the mind. The meeting of them is mental-contact. With mental-contact as a requisite condition there is mental-feeling, perception of ideas, volition toward ideas, and attention. If mind has ignorance, then on account of ignorance on does volitional actions based on 6 sense feeling, which conditions craving, clinging and becoming. With becoming, there is rebirth consciousness which supports the mentality and materiality in future life. With maturing of mentality materiality, there is birth. With birth as a structural conditions there is aging, sickness, death, pain, grief and despair. Any comments, corrections, suggestions? With metta, Alex #102357 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:22 pm Subject: Rupa kalapas, question truth_aerator Dear Nina, Sarah, Jon, all, As I understand the commenterial Abh, each smallest material unit (rupa-kalapa) contains 8 parts: 4 great elements (earth, water, fire, air) + colour, flavour, odour & nutritive essence. What odor, flavor and nutritive essence does the visual object have? What odor, flavor and nutritive essence does the Sound object have? What color, flavor and nutritive essence does the Smell object have? What color, flavor and nutritive essence does the tactile object have? What color, odor does the taste object have? With metta, Alex #102358 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:25 pm Subject: What isn't Kamma-Vipaka? truth_aerator Hello all, Is Avijja kamma-vipaka or not? Is craving kamma-vipaka or not? What factors of DO are not kamma-vipaka? With metta, Alex #102359 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. Harpsichord and recorded sound lovely together :) Best wishes pt > N: Metta has as object a person, thus, a concept. But the citta with > metta can be the object of another citta with awareness and > understanding. Metta itself is a cetasika, a reality, not a concept. > I have an opportunity for metta when playing, like this morning. Our > household helper comes once a week and she has chronic pain. The > music helps her, means a lot to her, and so Lodewijk and I play > together for her for a little while (harpsichord and recorder) even > when we do not feel like playing so early in the morning. As you say, > there is lobha, dosa, quite a lot of akusala. Anything can happen, > it depends on conditions. No self who can change realities. #102360 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 11/16/2009 5:50:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: I'm sorry to hear it. What is worse, claustrophobia, or having a son who tells everyone on Facebook that you have a new wife :-) (I laughed and laughed when I saw that one) ================================== What's really funny is that though he WAS joking, the joke didn't pertain to me but to him! The title, "Me and my new wife," was the title of the entire album, and it was based on a lead photo in that album of HIM with an old high school social studies teacher of his!! (The woman in the picture with ME is my wife, Rita, of course, who has been my wife for the last 42 years!! However, she may not have been my wife in my previous life. I add that last remark so that there is some Dhamma relevance in my post! ;-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102361 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? egberdina Hi pt and all, 2009/11/17 ptaus1 > Dear Nina, > > Thanks for your reply. Harpsichord and recorded sound lovely together :) > > Only when conditions are right. Sorry, I couldn't resist that :-) Cheers Herman #102362 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:30 am Subject: Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarahs Faulty Personal Opinions abhidhammika Dear Sarah, Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Alex, Freawaru, Howard, Robert K, Phil, Jon, Ken O How are you? Sarah wrote: "I still see nothing amiss with my comment "or personal opinion" *(above) which Suan took exception to: ( 'eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyan note, this is a formula commonly used to describe arahantship in many suttas.) I think the dictionary refs and notes above confirm this is correct." No, Sarah. The PTS dictionary refs and notes did neither improve your situation nor make your above personal opinion correct. "saadhu me, bhante, bhagavaa samkhittena dhammam desetu, yamaham bhagavato dhammam sutvaa eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyan"ti. "Venerable sir, it would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief, so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute." Bhikkhu Bodhi's Translation. The above paragraph described how the followers would request the Buddha to give them a suitable instruction for intensive samatha and vipassanaa practice. In fact, some monks, after making such a request and receiving an instruction for intensive meditation, failed to undertake the practice. Please see the following Bhikkhu Suttam 3. Bhikkhusuttam 369. Ekam samayam bhagavaa saavatthiyam viharati jetavane anaathapi.nikassa aaraame. Atha kho aataro bhikkhu yena bhagavaa tenupasankami; upasankamitvaa bhagavantam abhivaadetvaa ekamantam nisiidi. Ekamantam nisinno kho so bhikkhu bhagavantam etadavoca "saadhu me, bhante, bhagavaa samkhittena dhammam desetu, yamaham bhagavato dhammam sutvaa eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyan"ti. "Evameva panidhekacce moghapurisaa maceva ajjhesanti, dhamme ca bhaasite mameva anubandhitabbam maantii"ti. Section 369, Bhikkhusuttam, Ambapaali Vaggo, Satipa.t.thaanasamyuttam, Mahaavaggo, Samyuttanikaayo. Sarah, you are welcome to reproduce Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the above paragragh. When the readers (including you) see that translation, they will be able to decide the fate of your personal opinion (attanomati). Please pay attention to the Buddha's use of the term `moghapurisaa, foolish men'. So much for Sarah's wrong speech: a formula commonly used to describe arahantship in many suttas! Sarah also wrote: "I agree that BB might have used "after a short while" instead of "in this very life", but I don't see anything omitted or why this makes my "personal opinion" incorrect." Are you sure, Sarah? The final paragraph of Migajaala Suttam does contain the Pali phrase `nacirasseva', which has been left un-translated in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, perhaps an oversight. The above Bhikkhusuttam also includes the final paragraph with the same wording similar to Dutiya Migajaala Suttam as follows. Atha kho so bhikkhu bhagavato bhaasitam abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa u.t.thaayaasanaa bhagavantam abhivaadetvaa padakkhi.nam katvaa pakkaami. Atha kho so bhikkhu eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto viharato nacirasseva yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariyam pabbajanti tadanuttaram brahmacariyapariyosaanam di.t.theva dhamme sayam abhiaa sacchikatvaa upasampajja vihaasi. `Khii.naa jaati, vusitam brahmacariyam, katam kara.niiyam, naaparam itthattaayaa'ti abbhaaasi. Aataro capana so bhikkhu arahatam ahosiiti. Sarah, you are very welcome to check Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the above paragraph and produce it for all to see. That is called cross-referencing. If the Pali phrase `nacirasseva' was still found missing in this translation, something was very wrong with his translation. Sarah, I think you are a member of Pali Text Society and could have Samyutta Nikaaya translation by other translators. You could check those PTS versions as well. To be fair to PTS dictionary, it does mention "& continued with A". A. `Khii.naa jaati, vusitam brahmacariyam, katam kara.niiyam, naaparam itthattaayaa' B. eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto. Thus, PTS dictionary meant that the expression `eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto' did not come from the request paragraph addressed to the Buddha, but from the final paragraph showing intensive practice leading to the state of an Arahant. Uncle U Han Tun, that is why I stressed the importance of the Pali phrase `nacirasseva'. With best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #102363 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah’s Faulty Personal Opinions sarahprocter... Dear Suan & all, I don't have anything to add to the comments I've made so far on this topic which I see no reason to review at this time. I'll let others pursue the terms further if they wish and find the translations you mention. Indeed I'll be glad to read any further discussion. Thank you for your further suggestions. Sometimes we have to just agree that we have different 'personal opinions' on the meanings of the texts here:-) Metta Sarah --- On Tue, 17/11/09, abhidhammika wrote: >No, Sarah. The PTS dictionary refs and notes did neither improve your situation nor make your above personal opinion correct. <..> #102364 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowing lobha, dosa, etc - Virtue, Vinaya, Practice sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Mon, 9/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: >Some say that one must "know lobha, dosa, etc" . >From a sutta perspective there is even more important thing. One should not just "know" defilements, one should restrain them (see 4 right efforts, part of N8P) and the sila/vinaya rules are to restrain expressions of lobha, dosa and so on. Passive knowing is not enough. ... S: As Ken H (I think) said, who is advocating "passive knowing"? At a moment of right understanding, there is right effort arising - there is restraint, but it's not "one" *doing* anything. It's the function of the cetasikas, viriya, at such a moment. >Virtue is very important: >"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue. [Repeat the above]… "For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release." - AN11.2 ... S: Exactly! This is the point - when siila has been purified, it's not a matter of a self determing to be restrained, to not have remorse later. When wisdom develops, it's never a matter of a self determining to be enlightened. These are all dhammas which are conditioned, which arise when the right conditions are in place. Right effort accompanies each moment of kusala (different degrees and kinds, of course) - never by a wishing or a self trying to make it arise. Metta Sarah ======= #102365 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:39 am Subject: [dsg] Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah’s Faulty Personal Opinions hantun1 Dear Suan, Sarah, and others, I will not be able to contribute in any way to the discussions, but I was learning from the discussions between Suan, Sarah and others. However, Sarah had said: [I don't have anything to add to the comments I've made so far on this topic which I see no reason to review at this time. I'll let others pursue the terms further if they wish and find the translations you mention. Indeed I'll be glad to read any further discussion. Thank you for your further suggestions. Sometimes we have to just agree that we have different 'personal opinions' on the meanings of the texts here:-)] Han: In case, someone wishes to join the discussions or if Suan would like to make further comments on this subject, I volunteer to type Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation as follows. ==================== SN 47.3 Bhikkhu Sutta 369. Ekam samayam bhagavaa saavatthiyam viharati jetavane anaathapi.nikassa aaraame. Atha kho aññataro bhikkhu yena bhagavaa tenupasankami; upasankamitvaa bhagavantam abhivaadetvaa ekamantam nisiidi. Ekamantam nisinno kho so bhikkhu bhagavantam etadavoca– On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Saavatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapi.n.dika's Park. Then a certain bhikkhu approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him: "saadhu me, bhante, bhagavaa samkhittena dhammam desetu, yamaham bhagavato dhammam sutvaa eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyan"ti. "Venerable sir, it would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief, so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, with-drawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute." "Evameva panidhekacce moghapurisaa mañceva‚ ajjhesanti, dhamme ca bhaasite mameva anubandhitabbam maññantii"ti. "It is in just such a way that some foolish persons here make requests of me, but when the Dhamma has been spoken to them, they think only of following me around." [Note 126] [Note 126] Spk: This bhikkhu, it is said, after asking the Buddha to explain a meditation subject, had just roamed here and there and did not devote himself to solitude. Therefore the Buddha spoke thus to restrain him. ==================== Atha kho so bhikkhu bhagavato bhaasitam abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa u.t.thaayaasanaa bhagavantam abhivaadetvaa padakkhi.nam katvaa pakkaami. Atha kho so bhikkhu eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto viharato nacirasseva– yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariyam pabbajanti tadanuttaram– brahmacariyapariyos aanam di.t.theva dhamme sayam abhiññaa sacchikatvaa upasampajja vihaasi. `Khii.naa jaati, vusitam brahmacariyam, katam kara.niiyam, naaparam itthattaayaa' ti abbhaññaasi. Aññataro capana so bhikkhu arahatam ahosiiti. Then, dwelling alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute, that bhikkhu, by realizing it for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life entered and dwelt in that unsurpassed goal of the holy life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from the household life into homelessness. He directly knew: "Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being." And that bhikkhu became one of the arahants. ==================== Yours sincerely, Han #102366 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Third kind of nibbana element and cessation sarahprocter... Dear pt, More on upadana khandha - --- On Mon, 9/11/09, ptaus1 wrote: >> S: There are two meanings of upadana khandha: > a) rupa conditioned by past clinging, i.e. kammaja rupa > b) khandhas as object of clinging > > While still alive, the rupas conditioned by past kamma of the Buddha and all arahats are still a) upadana khandha. >pt: Makes sense. >> S: Furthermore, any of the khandhas of the Buddha and arahats are still upadana khandha for those that cling to them even though they (the Buddha and arahats) have no more lobha (attachment) . >pt: You mean that other unawakened people cling to the khandas of the arahats and the Buddha, right? .... S: Yes, this is why they are still upadana khandha - an object of clinging for others. .... >So, how about nama khandas of the Buddha and arahats before parinibbana? Considering that there is no more lobha or moha for them, these are not clinging-aggregates anymore, right? .... S: Are they not also an object of clinging for others? Didn't the Buddha's followers, inc. Ananda, become stressed at the thought of his parinibbana? Don't we cling to the wonderful virtues of the 'pure' as well as appreciating these qualities? All are upadana khandha for those with attachment arising .... ...after parinibbana. .. >> S: There are no further cittas and cetasikas arising, but as discussed, rupas conditioned by temperature can continue to arise for quite a while. These, such as the rupas of the relics, can still be upadana khandha for devotees. >pt: Yes, I got that this is the Theravada position, which is why I'm trying to remember what exactly was the counterargument by a Mahayana person who explained me just as convincingly that there are afflicted khandas, and then there are non-afflicted khandas, which continue after parinibbana, because they are in fact vipaka (or something like that) of wisdom and mahakaruna.. . Something to do with Buddhafields. .. Can't remember exactly now, other than that it was convincing :) .... S: Perhaps it's an idea that the lokuttara phala cittas (which experience nibbana) can continue to arise after parinibbana? Many sects had many ideas about some continuing life or experiencing of nibbana - just not wanting to accept that it really is the ceasing of the khandhas, the end of samsara, khanda parinibbaana or "an-upaadi-sesa-nibbaana". I know you're already on a steep study-of-texts-curve, but you'd also appreciate all the debates in Kathaavatthu, "Points of Controversy" (PTS). For example, there's one (Book XXII, 3) which involves a sect, the Uttaraapathakas, who believed that the arahats were in sustained fourth jhana (arupa jhana) when passing away. "Theravadin: - But does he not complete existence with ordinary consciousness? You agree. How then do you reconcile this with your proposition? "You are implying that he passes away with an ethically inoperative consciousness (kiriya citta). Is it not rather with a consciousness that is pure 'result'? Whereas according to you he passes away with a consciousness that is unmoral and purely inoperative, I suggest that it is with a consciousness that is unmoral and purely resultant. [S: cuti citta - vipaka citta]. "And did not the Exalted One emerge from Fourth Jhaana before he passed utterly away immediately after?" [S: Mahaparinibbana Sutta]. **** Metta Sarah ======== #102367 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa kalapas, question nilovg Dear Alex, Op 17-nov-2009, om 3:22 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > As I understand the commenterial Abh, each smallest material unit > (rupa-kalapa) contains 8 parts: 4 great elements (earth, water, > fire, air) + colour, flavour, odour & nutritive essence. > > What odor, flavor and nutritive essence does the visual object have? > What odor, flavor and nutritive essence does the Sound object have? > What color, flavor and nutritive essence does the Smell object have? > What color, flavor and nutritive essence does the tactile object have? > What color, odor does the taste object have? -------- N: They do not have anything, they arise together with other ruupas in a kalapa. The four Great Elements plus colour, flavour, odour & nutritive essence are the eight inseparable ruupas, the smallest unit. There are other kalapas consisting of more ruupas, but these eight have to be present in each group. Nina. #102368 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:51 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, Aversion is another unwholesome root. Aversion dislikes the object which is experienced, whereas attachment likes it. Aversion cannot arise at the same time as attachment, but it is conditioned by it. Aversion has many shades and degrees, it can be dissatisfaction, frustration, disappointment, dejection, sadness, fear, grief, despair, revulsion, resentment, moodiness or irritability. Unpleasant feeling invariably goes together with this unwholesome root. When there is even a slight feeling of uneasiness there is citta rooted in aversion. When we have envy or stinginess there is citta rooted in aversion. In the case of envy, one dislikes it that someone else enjoys pleasant things, one wants to obtain them for oneself. In the case of avarice one does not want to share ones possessions with someone else. Aversion can also motivate killing, harsh speech rudeness or cruelty. Another unwholesome root is ignorance. This is not the same as what is meant by ignorance in conventional language. In Buddhism ignorance has a specific meaning: it is ignorance of the characteristic of kusala and of akusala, of the truth of non-self, of the four noble Truths, in short, of ultimate realities. There are many degrees of ignorance. Ignorance is the root of all evil. Whenever there is citta rooted in attachment and citta rooted in aversion, there is also the root of ignorance. When one hears a pleasant sound, attachment is likely to arise and then there is ignorance as well. When one hears a harsh sound, aversion is likely to arise and then there is ignorance as well. Ignorance does not know the realities which arise, it does not know that attachment and aversion are akusala. Ignorance is like darkness or blindness. When there is ignorance the real nature of realities is covered up. ****** Nina. #102369 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: From the commentary on the Last Words of the Tathaagata sarahprocter... Dear pt, (Nina, Connie & all) #102138 --- On Mon, 9/11/09, ptaus1 wrote: >Thanks for the quote. It is a very interesting one, because I didn't know of any other quote (other than atthasalini one) that mentions 3 pitakas, 5 nikayas, and 9 angas, together. Moreover, these appear to be the actual words of the Buddha, not the commentators, right? .... S: Well, some might say that that's according to the commentators who can't be believed:-). The same detail is given in the introduction to the commentary on the Vinaya (UP: Vinaya commentary, Bahiranidana) and in the Mahavamsa, the ancient chronicle of Sri Lanka, as I recall. ... >Are there many instances in the commentaries that have the actual words of the Buddha that are not found elsewhere in the tipitaka? I ask, because the usual consensus among those that have never read the commentaries (like me) is that they do not contain the Buddha's words at all. ... S: Let me know if I come across other examples. Nina, Connie or others might know of some too. Metta Sarah =========== #102370 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Relpy to Ken O /with a new subject heading sarahprocter... Hi Phil, You wrote to Ken H, --- On Mon, 9/11/09, philofillet wrote: >As far as I know you're the only one that denies the ancient texts taught meditation practices. If I'm not mistaken, other people are perfectly willing to admit meditation is taught in the ancient texts, but question the suitability for people in this day and age. Wouldn't it be less deluded for you to take that line as well? ... S: My questions are: "what is meditation?" "what is meant by 'meditation' in the texts?" "what are meditation practices as taught by the Buddha?". No one here denies that there must be bhaavanaa, that there are two kinds of bhaavanaa, samatha and vipassanaaa, but we have to consider deeply what is meant by these terms. Metta Sarah ====== #102371 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja sarahprocter... Hi Dieter & all, --- On Thu, 12/11/09, Dieter Moeller wrote: >>D: usually lay people don 't have such opportunity and therefore have not been addressed . ... >S: I think it's more a question of accumulations and attachments than of opportunities. Many monks who had such opportunities were advised against it, because such a way of living is not conducive to calm and insight for most of us. I'd be glad to hear your comments, Dieter. >D: Our whole life refers to accumulations (of kamma) due to our attachments , but such freedom of opportunity is limited for us lay people , isn't it? ... S: I think that the only freedoms that count are limited by our attachments and other kilesa (defilements) only. The same applies to monks. ... >There were monks who were advised against it ('the forest may take over') , possibly those who prefer dry insight ... ... S: I think those who had too many defilements (like most of us) and not who had other inclinations, like the Buddha and many of his great disciples who spent most their time helping others out of their great compassion. .... >One needs to keep in mind that much of (wordly) attachment is already hindered by the rules of the discipline of the Order. .... S: I think that worldly or other attachment is only really hindered through right understanding and other pure qualities. The rules are to be followed along with satipatthana, otherwise they're of no lasting use. .... >In practise many of the monks who join a forest monastery have been ordained somewhere else , i.e. had some time of preparation. Regarding us commoners I think it depends as well on the ability to be a 'loner' .... S: I see no value in the conventional meaning of being a 'loner', eschewing company, living apart. It may all be out of attachment or a rejection of society. I just see meaning in the development of wholesome qualities such as panna, metta, dana, samatha and so on. ... >"The Sangha as the third factor of the Triple Gem worshipped by Buddhists seems to have a different meaning. It is called the Savaka Sangha (or Ariya Sangha) and is defined as those attained to any of the Eight Stages of Enlightenment (the 4 usual stages divided into Path and Fruit) who are "worthy of gifts, hospitality, offerings and reverential salutations, and who are the unsurpassed field of merit in the world". So, in the original texts, who are the "unsurpassed field of merit and worthy of offerings and salutations" ? ... S: The ariyan disciples. We pay our respects to all those who have realised and followed the Buddha's teachings. When I pay respect to a bhikkhu/bhikkhus, representing the Sangha, it is this deeper meaning of 'Sangha' that I pay respect to - those who have truly followed the path and have made it possible for us to read, hear and consider the teachings in order to follow it ourselves. .... >>S: I think we can also reflect on the Vinaya or any aspects of the teachings helpfully. As I said, there is plenty in the Cullavagga and other parts of the Vinaya about disruptions to harmony and the settling of disputes. There is nothing new about any of this - plenty too about bhikkhuni ordination. I think it's incredibly difficult for a bhikkhu to follow the Vinaya and full Patimokkha as intended today. >D: but - if I am right - not much is said about (settling of ) disturbance between Sangha and laity, and the Bhikkhuni ordination is such a special case. We discussed the bowl-overturning incidence between monks and a lay person recently, for example. I agree that most of the texts on settling harmony is between bhikkhus, as I recall. I hasten to add that I really haven't studied a lot and forget most of what I read a long time back. I mentioned to B.Bodhi once that I'd be very interested to read the commentary to the Vinaya (not available in English) and he was very surprised! ... >>S: I think there is plenty of detail in the Vinaya texts about settling of such disturbances and also on bhikkhuni related issues. ... >I feel reminded on a slogan which appeared in my environment some time ago : the religion is too important to leave it solely to the Church.. ... S: :-) I tend to stay out of the minefield of bhikkhu/bhikkhuni issues... All to their own. ... >D: I don't think we are here very much apart in our thinking , Sarah . Thank you for your well considered response. ... S: A pleasure chatting, Dieter. I enjoy discussing these issues more generally like this, reflecting on them in the light of present dhammas, such as our cittas now. If I have time later/next week, I'd like to find one or two passages in the Vinaya on harmony inc. perhaps bhikkhu/lay harmony. There are one or two I have very vaguely in mind... Metta Sarah ========= #102372 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, In addition to the other helpful comments... --- On Fri, 13/11/09, Lukas wrote: >Today I was sitting, when I felt some pain in my cheast and then I feel like sick and very unconfortable. I was frighten a bit. And I sit and feel very bad. How to deal with such feelings, when you feel like dying? ... S: As it happens, last week I was very sick one night. I'd eaten something which caused quite a violent reaction and I was vommiting all night - most unusual for me. I spent most the night in the bathroom and had some visitors in town I'd arranged to meet for breakfast the next day. I felt very weak, but thought I should go along, even though I couldn't eat then or for about 2 or 3 days afterwards. At such times, it's not fun, but there's still just one moment, one reality to be known at any time. It's a test of patience, metta and all the kusala qualities we've heard about. The unpleasant/painful bodily feeling just lasts for one moment only. When it's followed by lots of dosa in the sense door process and following mind door processes, it just makes the unpleasant feeling 7x worse in the sense door process and another 7x worse for each mind door process with dosa! How very foolish! Instead of thinking of ourselves, as we're bound to do of course at such times, we can have metta for others, have wise attention and develop wisdom. At such times, there's no unpleasant feeling at all. It's gone - no point in dwelling on it. Just an unpleasant dream... Hoping you're well now! Metta Sarah ======== #102373 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: chat with Scott sarahprocter... Hi Phil, (Scott & all), --- On Sun, 15/11/09, philofillet wrote: > >P: I love that. "progressions towards harmlessness. " I would like to know how to say that in Pali. > ... > S: bhavana? >P: Hmm. Interesting. I was thinking more literally how to say"progression towards harmlessness. " ... S: Isn't that exactly from bhaavanaa or mental development is? A "progression towards harmlessness". The one without any defilements is entirely harmless... ... >P: I'm learning the entire Dhammapada in Pali and get a lot of inspiration/ motivation/ comfort out of Pali sentences these days. ... S: That's great - pls share anytime. I've always loved the verses too. There used to be a great site that took one through the terms and Pali grammar with some commentary notes. I'm not sure what happened to it or whether I just lost my link. ... > >I'd also like to know how to say "soothing concept of being aware of presently arisen realities in daily life" in Pali! > ... > S: pariyatti? ... >Ph: Oh, this is interesting. I think you guys go wrong on pariyatti by being too ambitious (unconsciously) of putting it at the center of your daily lives, so there is exploitation of descriptioins of deep understanding, appropriation of others' panna. .... S: Of course, my comments were rather tongue-in-cheek. Your comment sounds very Freudian, Phil:-) Perhaps Scott might have something to say about it... ... >We could talk about that some time, not now. Thanks! ... S: Huh! Now is just when there are conditions for me to chat:-) Metta Sarah ======== #102374 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, --- On Sat, 14/11/09, upasaka@... wrote: >With regard to consciousness and namarupa, their mutual dependency is stated in at least one sutta, the Sheaves of Reeds sutta. Why only the one-sided formulation of contact --> feeling? It must represent a mode of conditioning in addition to conascence, it seems to me. ... S: If you can be bothered, you might also like to review some of our past discussions on this sutta: Reeds, Sheaves of Reeds Sutta (Nalakalapiyo Sutta) #52086, #65318, #72192 If you'd rather note, well others may:-)) Metta Sarah ======= #102375 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Sun, 15/11/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: ...Btw, I enjoyed your exchange with Freewaru and you made many helpful points in it, I thought. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------ H:> :-) Thanks! (Of course, what that means is that I said some things you agree with for change! ;-) ============ ========= ========= ... S: Well, even Alex says a few things I agree with when he's speaking to others, especially anyone new around here:-)) (j/k, Alex!) Seriously, I thought that many of your comments were very helpful and I appreciate your efforts to assist and make newcomers feel at home here. (Freewaru, many thanks for bringing up so many interesting points in your discussions too.) Metta Sarah ======= #102376 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- On Tue, 10/11/09, Herman wrote: > >H: A characteristic is something that is known or experienced, right? > ... > S: Not necessarily. A sound has a characteristic regardless of whether it's experienced or not. > H:> I'm afraid I do not understand this. Is unheard blue a smell :-) ? ... S: :-/ ... > S: ...Any rupa has the characteristic of not knowing, not > experiencing anything. This is what differentiates it from nama, which can experience. > > For example, the sound (of the watefall, say) does not know it can be > heard. It doesn't experience anything at all. It is just a physical element which arises and falls away and which may or may not ever be experienced. It doesn't care! > H:> Yes, this is good. But of course there has to be a but :-) When I meet a person, I sense no more than what I would if I was near a waterfall, there are only sights and sounds and smells etc, yet I ascribe the capacity of knowing to the person, and not to the waterfall. And I behave accordingly. ... S: Yes. Because of those particular sights, sounds, smells etc, there are conditions for particular kinds of thinking about concepts of a person. Visible object is just visible object, just that which is seen. This doesn't mean that each visible object is the same, that each sound is the same.. .... >There are clearly, if all of our behaviour is a guide, rupas that know, and rupas that don't know. >What do you think? ... S: Not so. It is the thinking and other kinds of experiencing which "know". Citta is the 'leader' in experiencing, in knowing. The sounds (of the waterfall or the person) don't know anything. Keep asking.... this is the most useful kind of discussion imo, because it's directly relevant to the understanding at this moment. thanks for your interest, Herman. Metta Sarah ========= #102377 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: chat with Scott scottduncan2 Dear Sarah (and Phil), Regarding: S: "pariyatti?" ... Ph: "Oh, this is interesting. I think you guys go wrong on pariyatti by being too ambitious (unconsciously) of putting it at the center of your daily lives, so there is exploitation of descriptions of deep understanding, appropriation of others' panna." .... S: "Of course, my comments were rather tongue-in-cheek. Your comment sounds very Freudian, Phil:-) Perhaps Scott might have something to say about it..." Scott: No, except that I don't agree with Phil. I've never taken to the objections raised by Phil. These always seem to have been derived by a committee - the 'Committee On How-To-Refute-DSG' - an odd pass-time as I see it. ;-) Phil is memorizing the Dhammapada in Paa.li, after all. But is this all there is to pariyatti? He suggests it is to make him feel better. Since he doesn't speak Paa.li, of what use can these memorized bits be? I don't think that reciting things to avoid other thoughts or feelings is helpful - except where one wishes to make one's self feel pious. If you want 'Freudian' then this sort of behaviour is a hallmark of an obsessional neurosis. ;-) Attributions to 'unconscious motivation' is another way of referring to anusaya - and these can condition kusala or akusala. Consider Gradual Sayings (III, Book of the Fives, Ch XXI, Kimbila, 2, On Hearing Dhamma): "Monks, there are these five advantages from hearing Dhamma. What five? He hears things not heard; purges things heard; dispels doubt; makes straight his view; and his heart becomes calm. Verily, monks, these are the five advantages from hearing Dhamma." Scott: Pariyatti would also be the impersonal 'study' of dhammas. When kusala arises, say in relation to lust, then this moment serves to dispel doubt and bring calm. Anxious wrestling with urges is also impersonal and akusala in my view. Sincerely, Scott. #102378 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:03 am Subject: Re: Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah’s Faulty Personal Opinions abhidhammika Dear Sarah, Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Alex, Freawaru, Howard, Robert K, Phil, Jon, Ken O How are you? Sarah wrote: "I don't have anything to add to the comments I've made so far on this topic which I see no reason to review at this time." What did you mean by `no reason to review at this time'? Did you mean that you are content with uninformed opinions? I find it very strange. It is very un-Buddhist. Whatever happened to KS folks's Right Understanding as a monopoly weapon to attack the practitioners of formal samatha and vipassanaa methods? Sarah also wrote: "Sometimes we have to just agree that we have different 'personal opinions' on the meanings of the texts here:-)" Sorry, Sarah, I did not present my personal opinions. If I did, I would have included a disclaimer. Traditional Theravada teachers may offer their personal opinions (attanomati) only when they cannot produce Pali textual evidences. And, they may do so upon request or for the advancement of further research. They never offer personal opinions to advance their petty personal agendas because the Buddha's Theravada Saasanaa is always infinitely greater than any putthujana's ego-based representations. The readers will notice that, so far, I have refrained from translating Dutiya Migajaala Suttam. I just let third party translations such as Bhikkhu Bodhi's speak for themselves. Sarah, please kindly remember not to accuse Traditional Theravada teachers of promoting their personal opinions. Such personalities as Traditional Theravada Teachers appear selflessly in the world for the sole purpose of preserving the Buddha's original teachings with the help of standard Pali commentaries on them. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #102379 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah’s Faulty Personal Opinions abhidhammika Dear Uncle U Han Tun, Sarah, Nina, Alex, Freawaru, Howard, Robert K, Phil, Jon, Ken O How are you? Uncle U Han Tun wrote: "In case, someone wishes to join the discussions or if Suan would like to make further comments on this subject, I volunteer to type Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation as follows." Thank you, Uncle. It is very kind of you to type out Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Bhikkhu Suttam. This Suttam is a short and beautiful instruction on how to practise Satipa.t.thaana. I was amazed to discover that Bhikkhu Bodhi left the important Pali phrase `nacirasseva' un-translated again. It is very odd. Perhaps, he just copied and pasted the first faulty translation in subsequent translations without checking again. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: Dear Suan, Sarah, and others, I will not be able to contribute in any way to the discussions, but I was learning from the discussions between Suan, Sarah and others. ..... Han: In case, someone wishes to join the discussions or if Suan would like to make further comments on this subject, I volunteer to type Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation as follows. ==================== SN 47.3 Bhikkhu Sutta 369. Ekam samayam bhagavaa saavatthiyam viharati jetavane anaathapi.nikassa aaraame. Atha kho aññataro bhikkhu yena bhagavaa tenupasankami; upasankamitvaa bhagavantam abhivaadetvaa ekamantam nisiidi. Ekamantam nisinno kho so bhikkhu bhagavantam etadavoca" On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Saavatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapi.n.dika's Park. Then a certain bhikkhu approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him: "saadhu me, bhante, bhagavaa samkhittena dhammam desetu, yamaham bhagavato dhammam sutvaa eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto vihareyyan"ti. "Venerable sir, it would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief, so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, with-drawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute." "Evameva panidhekacce moghapurisaa mañceva‚ ajjhesanti, dhamme ca bhaasite mameva anubandhitabbam maññantii"ti. "It is in just such a way that some foolish persons here make requests of me, but when the Dhamma has been spoken to them, they think only of following me around." [Note 126] [Note 126] Spk: This bhikkhu, it is said, after asking the Buddha to explain a meditation subject, had just roamed here and there and did not devote himself to solitude. Therefore the Buddha spoke thus to restrain him. ==================== Atha kho so bhikkhu bhagavato bhaasitam abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa u.t.thaayaasanaa bhagavantam abhivaadetvaa padakkhi.nam katvaa pakkaami. Atha kho so bhikkhu eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto viharato nacirasseva" yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariyam pabbajanti tadanuttaram" brahmacariyapariyos aanam di.t.theva dhamme sayam abhiññaa sacchikatvaa upasampajja vihaasi. `Khii.naa jaati, vusitam brahmacariyam, katam kara.niiyam, naaparam itthattaayaa' ti abbhaññaasi. Aññataro capana so bhikkhu arahatam ahosiiti. Then, dwelling alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute, that bhikkhu, by realizing it for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life entered and dwelt in that unsurpassed goal of the holy life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from the household life into homelessness. He directly knew: "Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being." And that bhikkhu became one of the arahants. ==================== Yours sincerely, Han #102380 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangha politics in Thailand ashkenn2k Dear Herman > >I understand what you are saying. But the fact is that we live in a world >where there are people who prevent others from pursuing their rightful >goals. Taking a position against such domination, and seeking to end it, is >not condemnation or dosa, IMO. KO: Rightful is subjective, it could be influenced by culture and society values. It is the kusala and aksuala that Buddha taught is what I considered rightful. > >I do not understand. When members of the sangha join in censuring a monk, is >that akusala? > KO: Depends on the factors as explain in Expositor pg 133, Courses of Immoral Action <> When we blame others, the likelihood of angry thought (dosa) is present. We should refrain from blaming others or finger pointing. Another example: The Path of Purification VIII, 36 pg 199 35....... And such speech as the Perfect One knows to be true and correct, conducive to good but displeasing and unwelcome to others, that speech the Perfect One knows the time to expound....(M.i,395) >But the point of our discussion is that there is disagreement within the >sangha, and there is no Buddha to rule on the matter. So where does that >leave us? Personally, I do not think that passivity in the face of harm is a >sign of loving kindness, or an expression of wisdom. KO: It is not being passive. I respect others views and traditions. I follow humbly the Thervada tradition. These rules are set by Buddha, deviation from such rules are not allow even for minor ones. Because only Buddha has the Omniscent to know what rules are beneficial to us, his compassion by setting these rules so that they prevent us from doing harm and leads us to salvation. Disagreements do happen but such disagreement if led to sichism is of weighty kamma. Not beneficial, hence why in the first email I said, lets have compassion. With metta Ken O #102381 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling nilovg Hi Howard, I answered but I should add something. The Vis. gave the different types of conditions by which contact conditions feeling in the D.O. Conascence, mutuality, etc. Mutuality is conascent. Citta and cetasikas arising together condition one another mutually. Nina. Op 17-nov-2009, om 12:01 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Why only the > one-sided formulation of contact --> feeling? It must represent a > mode of > conditioning in addition to conascence, it seems to me. #102382 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/17/2009 6:02:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard & all, --- On Sat, 14/11/09, upasaka@... wrote: >With regard to consciousness and namarupa, their mutual dependency is stated in at least one sutta, the Sheaves of Reeds sutta. Why only the one-sided formulation of contact --> feeling? It must represent a mode of conditioning in addition to conascence, it seems to me. ... S: If you can be bothered, you might also like to review some of our past discussions on this sutta: Reeds, Sheaves of Reeds Sutta (Nalakalapiyo Sutta) #52086, #65318, #72192 If you'd rather note, well others may:-)) ----------------------------------------------- I didn't make my point clearly, Sarah. I brought up the sheaves of reeds sutta *only* to give an instance of the conascence 0f two phenomena being elucidated in a sutta. My main point was to wonder why there is not something similar for contact and feeling, some likening of contact and feeling to two mutually-supporting sheaves and not just the unidirectional conditionality of contact conditioning feeling. ---------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102383 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known nilovg Dear Colette, Glad you appreciate Middle Length Sayings. Naanatta is diversity. Perhaps this is a sanskrit form? Nina. Op 16-nov-2009, om 18:01 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > NANATVA? > > Any ideas what this word means? #102384 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah’s Faulty Personal Opinions ashkenn2k Dear Suan >Whatever happened to KS folks's Right Understanding as a monopoly weapon to attack the practitioners of formal samatha and vipassanaa methods? > KO: Right understanding still comes first before any practise. It is not a monopoly, it is a fact stated in the suttas. Buddha after admonishing the monk in the sutta discussed, <<"Well then Bhikkhu, purify the very starting point of wholesome states? And what is the starting point of wholes states? Virture that is well purified and view that is straight". Then Bhikkhu, when your virture is well purifired and your view straight, based upon virture, established upon virture, you should developed the four establishment of mindfullness in threefold way." then the sutta describes on the mindfullness practise. The sutta quote is very clear Virture is purified and view that is straight. Even mundane Jhanas must have panna, this is evident by Buddha when he attained Jhanas many times in his previous life as a Bohdisattas. Now Suan, I have made it very clear in my previous email, there is never an instant KS in my interaction with her denying any formal samatha and vipassanaa methods? She always bring the people who ask about these methods it back to this point, which is "What is reality". > >Sarah, please kindly remember not to accuse Traditional Theravada teachers of promoting their personal opinions. KO: I think accusation is a strong word. I did not find her emails accusing, if you found, pse kindly indicate the sentence. As you said Thervada teacher is based on researching, likewise this is what I ask from you, which part of the sentence of an email you find her accusing? Just like I told Sarah that AS words "Drop it", is not being critical, it is just her method to focus on present reality. I respect your deep knowledge of the Pali word but I hope you also show the same respect to others. Lets not put words like accusing or monopoly and I felt in my opinion it is becoming personal, it is not beneficial to anyone. If you have a point in dhamma, please say it objectively and beneficially. If you find the words used are wrong, state the wrongness. If we are wrong, we correct ourselves in understanding the dhamma words and meaning. We discuss dhamma here and not otherwise. This is how dhamma growth and not start being disputing or argumentative. If I offended you, Suan, my humble apology. It is my profound wish that we have beneficial dhamma discussion here where everyone could discuss their own views and interpretatons of the dhamma in a friendly manner. With metta Ken O #102385 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. ashkenn2k Dear Ken H >------------ --------- ------- >KO: > From Expositor pg 81 <the concurrence in dependence on another. The phrase "at what time" >connotes the occurence of something on which it depends. By this word >showing thus the condition, the conceit of one who believes that states >unconditionally follow one's own will* is subdued. This is the meaning >of samaya in the sense of 'condition >------------ --------- --------- --- > >Interesting to see conceit mentioned in this context. I suppose it's >because we think, *I am* the controller. >------------------------------------------------------ KO: It shows that state arises dependent on conditions. this is to dispel the notion of a self causing the arisen of a state through one's will. I rather not use the word controller. > >"Absolute" free-will could be understood as "complete" free-will - as >distinct from partial - or it could be understood as "ultimate" >free-will - as distinct from conventional. I has to be the second one, >hasn't it? > KO: As usual, you find the control and no control a fascinating topic. Not everyone able to intepret the way we thought of not-self. We have to be patience with different people's intepretation and views, that makes discussion more interesting here. Cheers Ken O #102386 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Relpy to Ken O /with a new subject heading truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > You wrote to Ken H, > > --- On Mon, 9/11/09, philofillet wrote: > >As far as I know you're the only one that denies the ancient texts taught meditation practices. If I'm not mistaken, other people are perfectly willing to admit meditation is taught in the ancient texts, but question the suitability for people in this day and age. Wouldn't it be less deluded for you to take that line as well? > ... > S: My questions are: "what is meditation?" "what is meant by 'meditation' in the texts?" "what are meditation practices as taught by the Buddha?". No one here denies that there must be bhaavanaa, that there are two kinds of bhaavanaa, samatha and vipassanaaa, but we have to consider deeply what is meant by these terms. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > Dear Sarah, all, Meditation is developing wisdom (panna bhavana) and letting go of disturbances, abiding in void sunnatavihari. At first temporary, then permanently. With metta, Alex #102387 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What isn't Kamma-Vipaka? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 17-nov-2009, om 3:25 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Is Avijja kamma-vipaka or not? > Is craving kamma-vipaka or not? > > What factors of DO are not kamma-vipaka? ------- N: The expression kamma-vipaka as one word is not so clear. It is kamma that can condition vipaaka later on. Avijjaa conditions akusala kamma, kusala kamma and inperturbable kamma (aruupaavacara kusala citta). These produce vipaaka in the form of rebirth-consciousness, or vipaakacittas during life. Vi~n~naana in D.O. represents vipaaka. Craving conditions clinging and clinging conditions becoming. Becoming, bhava has two meanings: kamma process becoming(kamma-bhava) and rebirth becoming (upatti bhava). Clinging conditions becoming, and here it is kamma bhava: 'the Visuddhimagga, kamma-process becoming in brief is both volition and the states of covetousness, etc., associated with the volition, thus, the cetasikas that accompany volition, but, according to the Tiika, strictly speaking volition, cetanaa, is kamma. ****** Nina. #102388 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What isn't Kamma-Vipaka? truth_aerator Dear Nina, Thank you for your reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 17-nov-2009, om 3:25 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > Is Avijja kamma-vipaka or not? > > Is craving kamma-vipaka or not? > > > > What factors of DO are not kamma-vipaka? > ------- > N: The expression kamma-vipaka as one word is not so clear. What I've meant by it is passive resultant of past kamma. Maybe I should have used just vipaka word. >It is > kamma that can condition vipaaka later on. > Avijjaa conditions akusala kamma, kusala kamma and inperturbable Is avijja a resultant or causative factor? I think it is causative. Where do you think D.O. can be "cut" ? It is almost a standart teaching in some circles that one should cut at the point of vedana so tanha is not produced. Recently I personally have been inclining toward the idea that D.O. has to be cut at Avijja. What do you think? > kamma (aruupaavacara kusala citta). These produce vipaaka in the form > of rebirth-consciousness, or vipaakacittas during life. Vi~n~naana in > D.O. represents vipaaka. > Craving conditions clinging and clinging conditions becoming. > Becoming, bhava has two meanings: kamma process becoming(kamma-bhava) > and rebirth becoming (upatti bhava). > > Clinging conditions becoming, and here it is kamma bhava: 'the > Visuddhimagga, `kamma-process becoming in brief is both volition and > the states of covetousness, etc., associated with the > volition', thus, the cetasikas that accompany volition, but, > according to the Tiika, strictly speaking volition, cetanaa, is >kamma. > > ****** > Nina. I need clarification: What is the exact proximate cause of Cetana? With metta, Alex #102389 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:22 pm Subject: Is mind partially made of "subtle matter" or is it fully mental? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, When it comes to rise & fall of 5 aggregates the conditionality is this: 4 great primaries -> matter aggregate contact -> 3 aggregates of (sensation, perception, volitions) 4 aggregates (namarupa) -> consciousness aggregate MN109 For contact what is required is internal ayatana, external ayatana, and *consciousness*. Consciousness presupposes namarupa. So what we have is circular conditionality: For (b)vinnana there needs to be vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha. For vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha and sankharakkhandha there needs phasso. For phasso there needs to be "internal base, external object and (a)vinnana"... Note (b) and (a). Vinnana needs vinnana and other factors for its own arising. Q1: Can you please clarify? Cattaro kho bhikkhu, mahabhuta hetu cattaro mahabhuta paccayo rupakkhandhassa pannapanaya, phasso hetu phasso paccayo vedanakkhandhassa pannapanaya, phasso hetu phasso paccayo sannakkhandhassa pannapanaya, phasso hetu phasso paccayo sankharakkhandhassa pannapanaya, namarupam kho bhikkhu, hetu nama rupam paccayo vinnanakkhandhassa pannapanayati. MN109 Q2: Does manayatana include subtle matter? Q3: Does mano dhatu include subtle matter? Q4: What about arupa planes where matter is absent? With metta, Alex #102390 From: "Staisha Perry" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:00 am Subject: Re:Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying staisha_perry Hi sarah, i hope all is well. Glad to see you were paying attention to paramattha, instead of living in the moment of concept pannati. Delusion can appear so quick, and prevents one from being aware of the reality. To have direct expierce of ultimate reality of change, anicca,dukka,anata. And also understand the nature of the 5 khanda with various mental factors,their interrelation ship, process by which the mind functions,the four noble truths. How quick and subtle.. ------Original Message------ From: sarah abbott To: Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:39:48 AM +0000 Subject: Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying Hi Lukas, In addition to the other helpful comments... --- On Fri, 13/11/09, Lukas wrote: >Today I was sitting, when I felt some pain in my cheast and then I feel like sick and very unconfortable. I was frighten a bit. And I sit and feel very bad. How to deal with such feelings, when you feel like dying? .. S: As it happens, last week I was very sick one night. I'd eaten something which caused quite a violent reaction and I was vommiting all night - most unusual for me. I spent most the night in the bathroom and had some visitors in town I'd arranged to meet for breakfast the next day. I felt very weak, but thought I should go along, even though I couldn't eat then or for about 2 or 3 days afterwards. At such times, it's not fun, but there's still just one moment, one reality to be known at any time. It's a test of patience, metta and all the kusala qualities we've heard about. The unpleasant/painful bodily feeling just lasts for one moment only. When it's followed by lots of dosa in the sense door process and following mind door processes, it just makes the unpleasant feeling 7x worse in the sense door process and another 7x worse for each mind door process with dosa! How very foolish! Instead of thinking of ourselves, as we're bound to do of course at such times, we can have metta for others, have wise attention and develop wisdom. At such times, there's no unpleasant feeling at all. It's gone - no point in dwelling on it. Just an unpleasant dream... <...> #102391 From: "colette" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known ksheri3 Hi, This is just to finish up the "B" part of the "KNOWING/KNOWN" problem I ran into in the "DUAL CATEGORY VIEW", before I left yesterday. HOWARD > > It seems to me that the dual-category view can be replaced in either > > of two alternative ways, each of which countenances but one category of > > rupas: a) Herman (and Howard's) perspective: The perspective that the only > > rupas are phenomena arising and ceasing as material content of experience (or > > consciousness), i.e., the phenomenalist solution that, while distinguishing > > knowing from known, rejects their independence (or separability) > > > , and b) > > Ken's (and Jon's and other KS admirer's) perspective: The perspective that > > the only rupas are mind-independent phenomena that mentality can somehow > > make contact with, so that, for example, seeing amounts to eye-door > > consciousness making contact with a mind-independent "visible object" entity, a > > dualistic (mind/matter) solution. > > ---------------------------------------------------- colette: Howard, THANK YOU. This is a clear definition of the MIND-ONLY school of buddhist philosophy. Without this type of analysis I could never have been able to conceive of this reality below; Look at what you've said here: RUPAS existing on the premise that they, the things, are MIND-INDEPENDENT AND YOU ALSO CHALLENGE THOSE CASPER MILKTOASTS OF THE WORLD WHO DO NOTHING MORE THAN REALY UPON SOME <...> LITERATURE THAT SOMEHOW WAS MISS CATEGORIZED FROM THE "ULTIMATE FICTION" SECTION OF THE BOOKSHELVES TO A THEOLOGICAL SECTION OF THE BOOK SHELVES, AND IS NOW, in this day and age, somehow being morphed into the "ULTIMATE FACT" section of the book shelves. I say this since it is sooooooo amazing how this hallucination of a creator deity has morphed throughout time. Is morphing the only reality? <...> I ask you: HOW IS IT POSSIBLE FOR ANY RUPA TO EXIST WITHOUT A MIND GIVING IT TANGIBILITY? Thus, the mind is projecting the Rupa. Check this out: IS THE THING, the tangible object, is it a deity? Remember, deities are worshipped and cowtowed to. --------------------------------- seeing amounts to eye-door > > consciousness making contact with a mind-independent "visible object" entity, a > > dualistic (mind/matter) solution. colette: I reached this point and am again confounded but I know that if I think about it after I break away from my categorizational process and the mind-set I now have active in my mind, maybe later today I can work on this section here/above since it seems difficult for me to grasp at the moment. toodles, colette > > > Howard: > > I am confused by what is being said by you two here. "Internal rupa" > > and "external rupa" as far as the *suttas* are concerned seem to refer to > > material content of consciousness (or to presumed mind-independent, > > in-the-world, materiality) that appears as internal to the body in the former case, > > and that appears as external to the body in the latter case.<...> #102392 From: "colette" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:14 am Subject: The INVASION of THE OTHER MINDS! ksheri3 Hi Howard, I thought this was very relative to my recent analysis and so I thought: I could interest more people in this topic if I made it sound as though it was an up-coming movie release and slaves could go and watch it on a screen as they watch the teacher in front of a blackboard. naturally, I thought of THE INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS (no, not RESURRECTION MEN) except the body snatchers are now THE OTHER MINDS and they are invading the prison that robots put themselves in when they find the addiction of "wearring blinders" as the only way to live/exist. GREAT VIEW: > How do you know that there are other people, other minds? --------------------------------- > > In dreams I can encounter various people (they mostly try to beat me up) > who do not behave the way I want them. And they too can communicate and be > located in the same dream world area. So what is the major difference > between world of dreams and real waking world? > ------------------------------------------------ > When I wake up, I realize "Oh, I was dreaming." But that doesn't > happen when I fall into dream sleep. OTOH, I think all our pre-awakening > consciousness is much LIKE a dream. At least its unreality is becoming > increasingly clear to me. > ------------------------------------------------- colette: I love that above copy/paste. It relates so well and so beautifully to the western esoteric practice of "Astral Projection" as well as many different Tantrick realities and practices but I only have ten minutes left and want to check up on some other forums particlarlly the upcoming YAMANTAKA teachings/empowerment here in Chicago that I'd like to attend if I can have the costs deducted since I cannot afford the admission price. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 11/16/2009 5:10:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Hello Howard, > > > So am I understanding you right to intend this: > > > Whenever multiple people have similar experience, (ex: driving in a the > same car), all it is that they are having the similar "experience" of sensory > & mental cognition. Right? <...> #102393 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 11/17/2009 4:44:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ksheri3@... writes: Hi, This is just to finish up the "B" part of the "KNOWING/KNOWN" problem I ran into in the "DUAL CATEGORY VIEW", before I left yesterday. HOWARD > > It seems to me that the dual-category view can be replaced in either > > of two alternative ways, each of which countenances but one category of > > rupas: a) Herman (and Howard's) perspective: The perspective that the only > > rupas are phenomena arising and ceasing as material content of experience (or > > consciousness), i.e., the phenomenalist solution that, while distinguishing > > knowing from known, rejects their independence (or separability) > > > , and b) > > Ken's (and Jon's and other KS admirer's) perspective: The perspective that > > the only rupas are mind-independent phenomena that mentality can somehow > > make contact with, so that, for example, seeing amounts to eye-door > > consciousness making contact with a mind-independent "visible object" entity, a > > dualistic (mind/matter) solution. > > ---------------------------------------------------- colette: Howard, THANK YOU. This is a clear definition of the MIND-ONLY school of buddhist philosophy. Without this type of analysis I could never have been able to conceive of this reality below; ================================= I'm pleased that you feel that you have benefited from what I wrote, and I thank you for telling me so. :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102394 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah’s Faulty Personal Opinions hantun1 Dear Suan, Suan: Uncle U Han Tun, that is why I stressed the importance of the Pali phrase 'nacirasseva'. Han: Thank you very much for your kind explanation about the importance of the Pali phrase 'nacirasseva', and the need to carry out intensive practice to achieve the goal within a short time. It reminds me of the talk by Sayadaw U Nyanissara on the discourse on Satipa.t.thaana sutta. In the sutta towards the end, the Buddha said, "Let alone half a month, bhikkhus. If anyone should develop these four foundations of mindfulness in such a way for seven days, one of two fruits could be expected for him: either final knowledge here and now, or if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return." "Ti.t.thatu bhikkhave a.d.dhamaaso, yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaaro satipa.t.thaane eva.m bhaaveyya sattaaha.m, tassa dvinna.m phalaana.m a~n~natara.m phala.m paa.tika"nkha.m di.t.theva dhamme a~n~naa, sati vaa upaadisese anaagaamitaa ti." Sayadaw U Nyanissara said that to be able to achieve the goal within seven days, one would have to carry out intensive practice. How intensive? Sayadaw said, "Take one meal a day. Sleep only three hours a night. Leave one hour for washing and cleaning the body. Then, practice for 20 hours a day. If you do that, you might achieve the goal in seven days." It may not be easy to practice as Sayadaw said, but Sayadaw said like that to highlight the importance of intensive practice. with metta and respect, Uncle Han Tun #102395 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? ptaus1 Hi Herman, > > Thanks for your reply. Harpsichord and recorded sound lovely together :) > > > > > Only when conditions are right. Sorry, I couldn't resist that :-) > :) Yes, I think that's implied in every post on DSG, kind of like a silent letter, or silent sentence in this case :) Best wishes pt #102396 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: From the commentary on the Last Words of the Tathaagata ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply and further references. Best wishes pt > S: Well, some might say that that's according to the commentators who can't be believed:-). The same detail is given in the introduction to the commentary on the Vinaya (UP: Vinaya commentary, Bahiranidana) and in the Mahavamsa, the ancient chronicle of Sri Lanka, as I recall. #102397 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Third kind of nibbana element and cessation ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. > > S: While still alive, the rupas conditioned by past kamma of the Buddha and all arahats are still a) upadana khandha. > >pt: > >So, how about nama khandas of the Buddha and arahats before parinibbana? Considering that there is no more lobha or moha for them, these are not clinging-aggregates anymore, right? > .... > S: Are they not also an object of clinging for others? Didn't the Buddha's followers, inc. Ananda, become stressed at the thought of his parinibbana? Don't we cling to the wonderful virtues of the 'pure' as well as appreciating these qualities? All are upadana khandha for those with attachment arising pt: Yes, agreed that they are objects of clinging for others, but I meant for arahats/buddhas themselves - they do not cling to their nama aggregates anymore, and yet their nama aggregates still operate! For the rupa aggregate, I agree that they are a result of past kamma and thus may still be classified as upadana khandas, even though there's no more clinging to rupa aggregate by arahats/buddhas. So what are nama aggregates of arahats/buddhas for themeselves? I don't see yet on what basis these would still be clinging-aggregates for them. > >pt: > Yes, I got that this is the Theravada position, which is why I'm trying to remember what exactly was the counterargument by a Mahayana person new pt: Sorry about the confusion, I can't retrieve the actual discussion to clarify (it was on e-sangha forum, which has been down for a few weeks now). Nevertheless, thanks for the Kathavatthu quote. > S: "And did not the Exalted One emerge from Fourth Jhaana before he passed utterly away immediately after?" [S: Mahaparinibbana Sutta]. pt: By the way, is there any mention in the commentary to Mahaparinibbana sutta why did the Buddha go through all the jhanas back and forth before dying? There are all sorts of ideas about it floating around on the internet, so I'm wondering what's the classical position on that. Thanks. Best wishes pt #102398 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:50 pm Subject: Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself ptaus1 Hi Alex, > A: What are necessary conditions for arising of ear-consciousness (hearing)? Ear faculty, external sound object, air, space and attention. pt: Could you please let me know where did you see "air" as a condition for ear-consciousness? I'm asking because to me it makes sense that air should be a condition for hearing (for example, hearing isn't possible in outer space because there's no air or any other medium for sound to propagate through), but, air is strangely absent as a condition for hearing in Visuddhimagga: This is from Nina's book on rupas: The "Visuddhimagga" (XV,39) states: "Ear-consciousness arises due to ear, sound, aperture and attention." "Aperture" is the cavity of the ear. pt: So strangely, no air mentioned, though it is mentioned as condition for smelling, which makes sense. Best wishes pt #102399 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:54 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (69) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 8. Characteristics of Ruupas (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ---------------------------------- Ruupas can be classified as the four Principle Ruupas and the twentyfour derived ruupas. The four Principle ruupas, mahaa-bhuuta ruupas, are the four Great Elements. The derived ruupas, upaadaa ruupas, are the other twentyfour ruupas that arise in dependence upon the four Great Elements. Ruupas can be classified as gross and subtle. As we have seen (in Chapter 4), twelve kinds of ruupa are gross: visible object, sound, odour, flavour and three of the four Great Elements which are tangible object (excluding cohesion), as well as the five sense-organs. They are gross because of impinging: visible object impinges on the eyesense, sound impinges on the earsense, and each of the other sense objects impinges on the appropriate sense-base. The other sixteen kinds of rpa are subtle. What is subtle is called "far" because it is difficult to penetrate, whereas what is gross is called "near", because it is easy to penetrate (Vis. XIV, 73). Furthermore, other distinctions can be made. Ruupas can be classified as sabhaava ruupas, ruupas with their own distinct nature, and asabhaava ruupas, ruupas without their own distinct nature. The twelve gross ruupas and six among the subtle ruupas that are: cohesion, nutrition, life faculty, heart-base, femininity and masculinity are ruupas each with their own distinct nature and characteristic, they are sabhaava ruupas. The other ten subtle rpas do not have their own distinct nature, they are asabhaava ruupas. Among these are the two kinds of intimation, bodily intimation and speech intimation, which are a "certain, unique change" in the eight inseparable ruupas produced by citta. Moreover, the three qualities of lightness, plasticity and wieldiness, classified together with the two ruupas of intimation as vikaara ruupas (ruupa as changeability or alteration) are included in the asabhaava ruupas. Furthermore, the ruupa space (akaasa or pariccheda ruupa) that delimits the groups of ruupa, as well as the four ruupas that are the characteristics of origination, continuity, decay and impermanence, are included. ------------------------------ Chapter 8. Characteristics of Ruupas to be continued, and one more classification of ruupas in the last installment of this chapter. with metta, Han