#102400 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:58 pm Subject: Re: On the path, effort, and repetition ptaus1 Hi Alex, > A: What I am advocating is not "just" samatha and then use insight. Samatha itself requires lots of wisdom and it is not simple "lets tranquilize oneself". Tranquilizer drugs could do just that. pt: While I support developing samatha and agree that samatha requires a certain level of wisdom and is not just a simple "lets tranquilize oneself", samatha imo does not provide liberative level wisdom. Clear example from the suttas are the Buddha's teachers and Devadatta who were all masters of jhana, but did not reach sotapanna level. However, even IF you or anyone else were to advocate samatha only first and insight much later, I feel it still wouldn't go against the first path definition mentioned in the sutta (if I understand it correctly). > > pt: Also, I didn't find the reason why mental abilities can be >developed only up to arahatship, but not afterwards. > A: Arhatship is the perfection of liberation of the mind from the taints. That is why you can't develop liberation further. pt: Agreed, but I was asking more in the sense of faculties that are not directly connected with liberative wisdom - 5 abhinnas, abilities to read other's minds, tendencies, kamma, and other things a Buddha can do, but arahats cannot. I mean, it would seem that because an arahat's mind is now free of fetters and hindrances, it should be much easier to develop all these different abilities. But it does not happen. Why? Thanks for the Ptsm quote. Best wishes pt #102401 From: "colette" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:11 pm Subject: and another thing about the INVASION: ksheri3 Hi Howard, I luv it: you've given the position that NO EVIDENCE IS PRESENT THAT ESTABLISHES THE EXISTANCE OF ANOTHER MIND OR OTHER MINDS. The question then comes: does another mind other than your own mind, exist? If so, how do you know that it exists? Eventually, in the examination of characteristics we'll arive that the Jimi Hendrix song "ROOM FULL OF MIRRORS" which, in my interpretation, is a troubedors view of watching the movie ENTER THE DRAGON where, at the end of the movie, Bruce Lee is forced to shatter all the mirrors that misguide him as actually "BEING" his enemy. --------------------------- SO HERE WE ARE AT LUCID DREAMING. > > In dreams I can encounter various people (they mostly try to beat me up) colette: how can you have any physical body sensations in a dream? You have the memory of a painful experience and you have the memory of being "beatten up", but how, WITHOUT A PHYSICAL BODY, can you have the sensation of PAIN? Could it be that your subconscious has a lot more input in the reality that you have when you are dreaming or asleep or in a state of YOGA NIDRA. In this case, THEN, we are forced to rely upon the BOLIGEN SERIES XX -- THE COLLECTIVE WORKS OF CARL GUSTAV JUNG (when I found this at THE OLCOTT LIBRARY of the Theosophical Society in Wheaton IL, I went nuts, "WHAT A USER'S MANUAL"!) Your subconscious is mocked and laughed at while you are supposedly awake but when you sleep you somehow have acknowledged that a reality exists that you have little or no control of. In the Dzogchen practices the major aspiration is to become cognizant that you are dreaming when you are dreaming. That's about all they say about this monumental event in the practice, but, in the Golden Dawn, where I first learned this, I was instructed to "look at my hands" when I dream so that I could "consciously realize and be sure that I was dreaming". This means that you have to program your own subconscious to do that, perform that act. Instead of hypnotizing yourself with text books the day before a test, midterm or final, hypnotize yourself with/through MEDITATION. "REMEMBER TO LOOK AT YOUR HANDS", take control of the dream before the dream becomes real. Set the dream up. ------------------------- > who do not behave the way I want them. colette: YEA, I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU MEAN. CONSIDER THE TRUTH HERE: that you are truely and really INTERACTING WITH OTHER MINDS IN THEIR PURE STATE: they have no idea that they are in the state of YOGA NIDRA et al but they are still "conscious" to the extent that their PURE CONSCIOUSNESS, unstained, untainted, consciousness actually is interacting with your consciousness. BUT WE COME TO THE CROSSROADS: EXACTLY LIKE YOU SAID EARLIER, HOW CAN YOU BE SURE THAT OTHER MINDS EXIST, we are forced to take THE SUBCONSCIOUS INTO CONSIDERATION. Is the SUBCONSCIOUS PROJECTING THESE REALITIES TO OUR OWN MIND OR IS OUR MIND ACTUALLY INTERACTING WITH OTHER MINDS? I CANNNNNNNNNNNN'T TELLLLLLLLLL YOU HOW HARD IT IS TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THAT WHICH IS MANIFESTED THROUGH THE SUBCIOUSNESS AND THAT WHICH IS MANIFESTED AS "OTHER". It's almost as real as the movie THE DEER HUNTER where the friend goes back to Vietnam to find the friend that became the pawn in a contest to commit suicide playing RUSSIAN ROULETE. For me, one of the biggest benefits that Buddhism has brought to me is that "a man can only step into the same river ONCE" meaning that there is no second time, the river that you step in now changes now and therefore you can never step in the same river a second time. STREAM OF CONSCIOUSNESS, no? Although Russian Roulette is governed by STATISTICS, and that is a course that I did not like at all! Probability also plays a role, I bet. --------------------------------------------------- And they too can communicate and be > located in the same dream world area. colette: HOW? I fully admit that communication is part of the Yoga Nidra experience but what is this <....> of CATEGORIZATION? What is a "dream world area"? <...> Theorize for a second. Go into your <...>two dimensional world and do some reading which will allow you to theorize about QUANTUM REALITIES where you might just find the MULTI-VERSE or M THEORY. This dream world you speak of. Doesn't this dream world, THEN, exist? Since this dream world exists then where is it existing? If this reality does exist on a membrain as Quantum Physics predicts and there are 11 or 12 different theories of the membrains existing then isn't it possible that we, in our state of IGNORANCE, do not yet fully understand the world we live in, that we exist in, that we are destroying so that we can never live in this world again? So, you see, living in your damned Ivory Tower may be good to an extent but THE LAW OF DEMINISHING RETURNS will play it's part making your IVORY TOWER weak and able to fall, eventually. You have to read outside the material that's given to you. You have to do a little "fact checking" for yourself, you have to do a little research for yourself. ------------------------------------------------ So what is the major difference > between world of dreams and real waking world? > ------------------------------------------------ colette: THAT IS AN IMPOSSIBLE QUESTION TO ANSWER. <...> -------------------------------- > When I wake up, I realize "Oh, I was dreaming." colette: HOW? Do you mean to tell me that you remember each and every act that took place in the dream world and that you did not forget anything from the dream? So it's possible THEN that when you make the statement that "oh, I was dreaming" what you are saying is that you have a vague cognition of something happening but your memory is very weak when it comes to details. Why is it, for instance, that you only remember those people that want or try to beat you up, why do you only remember the negative and not the positive? did anything positive happen? =-------------------------------------- what is this "OTOH"? ----- But that doesn't > happen when I fall into dream sleep. colette: you haven't practiced falling into the dream state of consciousness so how can it be different? OTOH, what is this ? the below statement is so far out there and yet on my hook, that I can real this in and speak of it but it is soooooooo far out there that it will take more time than I have remaining on the computer. THANK YOU! toodles, colette I think all our pre-awakening > consciousness is much LIKE a dream. At least its unreality is becoming > increasingly clear to me. > ------------------------------------------------- <...> #102402 From: "philofillet" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: chat with Scott philofillet @Hi Sarah > >P: Hmm. Interesting. I was thinking more literally how to say"progression towards harmlessness. " > ... > S: Isn't that exactly from bhaavanaa or mental development is? A "progression towards harmlessness". The one without any defilements is entirely harmless... Ph: Yes, quite, I agree. But you guys always want to jump to considering the deeper stages of development, which is of course very interesting but leads to, in my opinion, neglgect of/disineterst in the very mundane progress that happens in less intriguing, less discussion-worthy ways, ways that are usually treated a touch disrespectfully by you guys when you say things like "well, other religions say that too." You see, there is a degree of harmlessness and related virtue that is not bhavana, because it is not accompanied by the degree of panna that is, if I'm not mistaken, necessarily implied by "bhavana." There is a very interesting sutta in Anguttara Nikaya that gets at a lot of the things I talk about, in a way. I will paraphrase, but it starts with the daughter of a man who has died complaining to the Buddha (or one of the great disciples, I forget) because she has heard that he has attained status of a once returner in his rebirth rather than an arahant, whereas another man, who was not as chaste in terms of celibacy became an arahant. THe sutta concludes that those who have are advanced in wisdom but not in virtue outrank (if that's the right word) those who are well established in virtue but who have not developed deep understanding. That is a rough description, and I might have the details wrong, but what I don't have wrong is the fact that there is a way of virtue pointed at that is not tied-up with the way of understanding. Let me go get my book. It is AN VI, 44. It concludes with "if Isidatta had possessed the same degree of virtue that Puraana had, Puraanaa acould not have equalled Isidatta's status. And if Puraanaa had possed the same wisdom that Isidatta had, Isidaatta could not have equalled Puraana's status. THere two persons, however, were dificient in one respect." Well, that won't help much. If anyone wants to look at that sutta closer, it might be interesting. But the point is that while virture with understanding is superior to virtue without a great amount of understanding, there is in the Buddha's teaching a tradition of virtue without deep understanding, and that is my way, because trying to force deep understanding on to oneself is not wise. But it's what A.S does, sorry. > ... > >P: I'm learning the entire Dhammapada in Pali and get a lot of inspiration/ motivation/ comfort out of Pali sentences these days. > ... > S: That's great - pls share anytime. I've always loved the verses too. There used to be a great site that took one through the terms and Pali grammar with some commentary notes. I'm not sure what happened to it or whether I just lost my link. Ph: Yes, here it is. http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/BDLM/en/lesson/pali/lesson_pali3.htm It's really great. I have downloaded the verse pronunciation clips onto my i-pod and aspire to be able to put it on shuffle mode and still understand everything I hear. I don't think that this has anything to do with "bhavana." It is just to inspire me and motivate me and make me feel confident that the DHamma is central enough in my life that I can understand Dhammapada in Pali. And some of the verses are amazingly funky the way the syllables rattle off. I like the sound of this Pali a lot, it must have be from a past life whe I was a Pali scholar at the Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia. > > > >I'd also like to know how to say "soothing concept of being aware of presently arisen realities in daily life" in Pali! > > ... > > S: pariyatti? > ... > >Ph: Oh, this is interesting. I think you guys go wrong on pariyatti by being too ambitious (unconsciously) of putting it at the center of your daily lives, so there is exploitation of descriptioins of deep understanding, appropriation of others' panna. > .... > S: Of course, my comments were rather tongue-in-cheek. Your comment sounds very Freudian, Phil:-) Perhaps Scott might have something to say about it... Ph: I don't know anything about Freud, but I do think you guys get comfort out of thinking about paramattha Dhammas. I'm just going to post about that in another thread. Metta, Phil > >We could talk about that some time, not now. Thanks! > ... > S: Huh! Now is just when there are conditions for me to chat:-) > Ph: Sorry,I'm going to be away until January at the soonest. (I know you've heard that before...) #102403 From: "philofillet" Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:09 pm Subject: Re:Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying philofillet Hi Staisha, Sarah, Lukas and all > > Hi sarah, i hope all is well. Glad to see you were paying attention to paramattha, instead of living in the moment of concept pannati. Delusion can appear so quick, and prevents one from being aware of the reality. To have direct expierce of ultimate reality of change, anicca,dukka,anata. And also understand the nature of the 5 khanda with various mental factors,their interrelation ship, process by which the mind functions,the four noble truths. How quick and subtle.. Ph: Don't forget that there are concepts about concepts, and concepts about realities. I forget the exact name for these terms, they are laid out in the very good little book extracted from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas called "Concepts and Realities." When we are thinking about paramattha dhammas because we are having upsetting or painful experiences, we are still lost in a world of concepts. The big question is (and I don't know the answer) if we are thinking about paramattha dhammas because it takes our mind off our unpleasant situation, will that thinking about paramattha dhammas help to condition direct understanding of dhammas, or will we just be fooling ourselves, deluding ourselves that our thinking about paramattha dhammas is actually "awareness of present realit?" I think that is the question students of A.S always have to keep asking themselves, but as far as I know that question is not really appearing in your citta streams yet! It seems pretty obvious to me at this point that thinking about paramattha dhammas to ease the mind in hard times goes on *a lot* but I don't know if it will be an obstacle to or helpful condition for real understanding. Probaly the latter, but maybe the former, so please be careful not to overestimate the bhavanic value of all your thinking about paramattha dhammas. Watch out for S.O.W.S!!! (Sexiness of Wisdom Syndrome.) Metta, Phil p.s I hope you are feeling better Lukas. If you are still averse to meditating on the breath, I would recommend yoga or other kind of breathing exercises, or other forms of gentle, healing excercise combined with healthy diet and of course a visit to a doctor if the painful, anxious feeling continue. Nothing wrong with easing the pain with reflection on paramattha dhammas now and then, but if that is all we do for our illnesses, it will result in cheapening the deep teachings by turning them into feelgood mind candy, in my opinion. #102404 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:58 pm Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 10. nilovg Dear friends, The three wholesome roots of non-attachment, non-aversion and wisdom have many shades and degrees. Non-attachment can be unselfishness, generosity, renunciation or dispassion. Each kusala citta is rooted in non-attachment. Whenever there is kusala citta, there is no clinging at that moment but detachment. Each kusala citta is rooted not only in non-attachment, it is also rooted in non-aversion. Non- aversion has many degrees: it can be loving-kindness, forbearance or endurance. Loving-kindness is directed towards beings, and forbearance or endurance can also pertain to situations and things. When the temperature is too hot or too cold there is bound to be dislike. When the benefit of forbearance is seen, one is not disturbed by the temperature and one does not complain. Wisdom is the third wholesome root. Wisdom does not accompany each kusala citta. Wisdom is a condition for the arising of kusala citta more often. Wisdom or understanding in Buddhism is understanding of realities. It has many degrees, it can be theoretical understanding of realities or direct understanding of the reality which appears. It can be understanding of kusala as kusala, of akusala as akusala, of good and evil deeds and their results, of the truth of non-self, of the four noble Truths. Understanding can be gradually developed. The direct understanding of realities leads to the eradication of defilements. When there is kusala citta there are no attachment, aversion or ignorance with the citta. Kusala citta motivates wholesome deeds and speech. It depends on accumulations of kusala and akusala in the past what type of citta arises. Good friends or bad friends one associates with are also an important condition for the arising of kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When one associates with a wise friend there are conditions for the arising of kusala citta more often. There are many more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas because of the accumulated defilements which condition them, but this is unnoticed. Just as we do not notice the amount of dirt on our hands until we wash them, evenso do we not know the amount of defilements until understanding of realities is developed. ******* Nina. #102405 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What isn't Kamma-Vipaka? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 17-nov-2009, om 21:30 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > >It is > > kamma that can condition vipaaka later on. > > Avijjaa conditions akusala kamma, kusala kamma and inperturbable > > Is avijja a resultant or causative factor? I think it is causative. ------- N: Ignorance is always akusala, it cannot be vipaaka. ------- > > A: Where do you think D.O. can be "cut" ? It is almost a standart > teaching in some circles that one should cut at the point of vedana > so tanha is not produced. Recently I personally have been inclining > toward the idea that D.O. has to be cut at Avijja. ------- N: There is no person who can cut or cause the stopping of the cycle. Right understanding of realities up to the stage of the arahat leads to freedom from the cycle. This takes an endlessly long time. But a beginning can be made. Nina. #102406 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:40 am Subject: Re:Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying szmicio Dear Phil, Howard, Ken 0, Staisha, Sarah, Nina Thanks for your helpful answer. I like sarah's: "just unpleasant dream". I can add "out of control". > p.s I hope you are feeling better Lukas. If you are still averse to meditating on the breath, I would recommend yoga or other kind of breathing exercises, or other forms of gentle, healing excercise combined with healthy diet and of course a visit to a doctor if the painful, anxious feeling continue. Nothing wrong with easing the pain with reflection on paramattha dhammas now and then, but if that is all we do for our illnesses, it will result in cheapening the deep teachings by turning them into feelgood mind candy, in my opinion. L: Now I am a bit better. but still feel not well. Thanks for care. Best wishes Lukas #102407 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What isn't Kamma-Vipaka? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 17-nov-2009, om 21:30 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I need clarification: > > What is the exact proximate cause of Cetana? ------- N: Looking at the definition of the Vis. XIV, 135: The proximate cause is not mentioned, but we read in Vis. XIV, 132, about the proximate cause of the khandha of formations: Volition is sankhaarakkhandha and it cannot arise without the other three naama-khandhas, citta, feeling, saaa and the accompanying cetasikas of sankhaarakkhandha. Volition is different from what we mean by will in conventional language. The meaning of volition will be clearer when we remember that it can be of four jaatis: kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. We are inclined to have an idea of my will power, but volition arises because of conditions and then falls away immediately. It is different all the time, and it is beyond control. Nina. #102408 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wander alone like a rhinoceros. sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Sat, 14/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: > S:> So, this is like the Migajala sutta - living alone without sense impressions. > A:> If we analyze everything into 5 aggregates scheme than that is all we will see. ... S: Yes, we'll find that the Buddha was correct when he said that the 5 khandhas are the 'All', (excluding nibbana, of course). It's not just a question of analysis, but of understanding and realisation. ... >The Buddha was nothing more than freedom from 5 aggregates, the suffering is activity of the aggregates, etc etc. ... S: "Sankhittena pan~cupaadaanakkhandha dukkhaa" (in brief, the five khandhas, subject to clinging, are dukkha). The khandhas of the Buddha were also dukkha - all except the lokuttara cittas. The magga cittas at the stage of arahatship eradicated all final clinging and ignorance, so no more conditions for samsara to continue at the end of life. .... >If we analyze from conventional, real world point of view: There was a historic Buddha, there are suttas (which is what we are analyzing), there IS effort and khandhas that do the effort in the forest and other secluded place. Forest and secluded places are aggregates too! .... S: This is just thinking from a conventional pov about concepts, even if it's 'right' thinking. 'Forest', 'seccluded places', 'suttas' and 'historic Buddha' are all concepts, not khandhas. There can never be insight into any of them, only wise or unwise thinking about them. ... >Not all circumstances (rupa kkhandha and other relevant kkhandhas) is suitable. .... S: Any khandha appearing - whether nama or rupa - is always suitable: it's the only object that can be known now (or at any other time). 'Circumstances' is an illusion when it comes to the development of insight. ... >Sitting in a strip club ogling women and drinking beer isn't a most suitable place to develop the meditation (at least not for a beginner. Advanced student won't desire to go there in the first place). ... S: We're not in a strip club or drinking beer now and neither of us is inclined to go anyway. Instead of imagining long stories about other good or bad circusmstances, what about understanding the realities which can be known now while we 'speak'? Seeing is seeing, for example. If there is understanding now of seeing, as distinct from what is seen, we're not concerned about other suitable/unsuitable places. ... >We can replace strip club (which is made of kkhandhas and concepts) with busy shopping center and use the same arguments. It is not a suitable circustance of khandha, ayatana, dhatu, etc, to develop insight, any real insight, for most if not all bearers of aggregates. ... S: What is the difference between the seeing now and the seeing at any other moment? Any khandha, any dhatu, anytime can be the object of insight. When we appreciate that there are only ever the present khandhas arising and that any rupa whatsoever is rupa khandha and so on for the other khandhas, we will think less and less about favourable and unfavourable khandhas - they are all impermanent and dukkha after all. The way is to understand more about the realities, the khandhas, not to think more and more about potential imaginary scenarios - we're expert at that already, without the Buddha's assistance. Metta Sarah ======== #102409 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself nilovg Dear Alex, pt, Op 18-nov-2009, om 4:50 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > This is from Nina's book on rupas: > > The "Visuddhimagga" (XV,39) states: "Ear-consciousness arises due > to ear, sound, aperture and attention." "Aperture" is the cavity of > the ear. > > pt: > So strangely, no air mentioned, though it is mentioned as condition > for smelling, which makes sense. ------- N: Space in the ear is a condition for hearing. Space is not a condiiton for seeing, as Alex suggested. Nina. #102410 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: chat with Scott scottduncan2 Dear Phil (and Sarah), Regarding: Ph: "...But the point is that while virtue with understanding is superior to virtue without a great amount of understanding, there is in the Buddha's teaching a tradition of virtue without deep understanding, and that is my way, because trying to force deep understanding on to oneself is not wise..." Scott: What about trying to force virtue? How is what you attempt to do in the day natural? How is it different than frequent hand washing, fears of contamination, thinking an opposite thought to negate the bad one that just came into your head, saying 'hail mary's', or going to confession? There is no 'forcing' virtue either, Phil, which is what I see your attempt to be. Respecting the underlying fact that no dhamma is subject to control, waiting and patience in the face of akusala seems more natural; wise attention may or may not arise, sati may or may not arise, pa~n~naa may or may not arise. And there is no 'deep understanding' for a long time, while it seems there is waiting for the development of these mental factors to proceed. The 'one who waits,' like 'the one who is virtuous' or 'the one who sits,' doesn't exist. I'm not saying that 'waiting' is a 'practice.' It will seem like waiting to the precious self who wants to be so virtuous and feel like he is doing something. Someone should manage him by reminding him he doesn't exist, and maybe mettaa might even arise with this poor sod as object. Sincerely, Scott. #102411 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What isn't Kamma-Vipaka? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Alex) - In a message dated 11/18/2009 3:36:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Alex, Op 17-nov-2009, om 21:30 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > >It is > > kamma that can condition vipaaka later on. > > Avijjaa conditions akusala kamma, kusala kamma and inperturbable > > Is avijja a resultant or causative factor? I think it is causative. ------- N: Ignorance is always akusala, it cannot be vipaaka. ------- > > A: Where do you think D.O. can be "cut" ? It is almost a standart > teaching in some circles that one should cut at the point of vedana > so tanha is not produced. Recently I personally have been inclining > toward the idea that D.O. has to be cut at Avijja. ------- N: There is no person who can cut or cause the stopping of the cycle. Right understanding of realities up to the stage of the arahat leads to freedom from the cycle. This takes an endlessly long time. But a beginning can be made. Nina. ================= The Buddha spoke of tears filling oceans across aeons in samsara, but also spoke of the possibility of awakening within a week. A foolish optimist counts on the latter, a foolish pessimist on the former. The realist counts on neither, but just does what needs to be done as best s/he can. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102412 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah’s Faulty Personal Opinions abhidhammika Dear Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Alex, Freawaru, Howard, Robert K, Phil, Jon, Sarah, Ken O How are you? Uncle U Han Tun described how the Buddha taught the two benefits of undertaking Satipa.t.thaana as an intensive practice as follows. "Ti.t.thatu bhikkhave a.d.dhamaaso, yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaaro satipa.t.thaane eva.m bhaaveyya sattaaha.m, tassa dvinna.m phalaana.m a~n~natara.m phala.m paa.tika"nkha.m di.t.theva dhamme a~n~naa, sati vaa upaadisese anaagaamitaa ti." "Let alone half a month, bhikkhus. If anyone should develop these four foundations of mindfulness in such a way for seven days, one of two fruits could be expected for him: either final knowledge here and now, or if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return." Section 404, Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam, Mahaavaggo, Dighanikaayo Uncle also produced Sayadaw U Nyanissara's description of how to undertake intensive practice of samatha and vipassanaa as follows. "Sayadaw U Nyanissara said that to be able to achieve the goal within seven days,one would have to carry out intensive practice. How intensive? Sayadaw said, "Take one meal a day. Sleep only three hours a night. Leave one hour for washing and cleaning the body. Then, practice for 20 hours a day. If you do that, you might achieve the goal in seven days." It may not be easy to practice as Sayadaw said, but Sayadaw said like that to highlight the importance of intensive practice." Thank you, Uncle. What Dutiya Migajaala Suttam, Bhikkhu Suttam, and Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam, among others, taught us is that the Buddha expected his followers to undertake samatha and vipassanaa formally and intensively. This expectation of the Buddha has been reflected in such Pali phrases as `nacirasseva' in Dutiya Migajaala Suttam and `eva.m bhaaveyya sattaaha.m' in Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam. Ignoring such weighty expectation of the Buddha would amount to vulgarization, demoting and downgrading of his original Theravada teachings. Those who raise their voices against formal intensive practices of samatha and vipassanaa commit the wrong speech (micchaavaacaa). Uncle U Han Tun, I am still interested in how Bhikkhu Bodhi would translate `Acelakassapa Suttam' at Section 17, Nidaanasamyuttam, Nidaana Vaggo, Samyuttanikaayo. You will also find Acelakassapo to be an interesting person that he indeed was. If you have spare time, please kindly type out the following last paragraph of Acelakassapa Suttam as Dhamma Daana. In this Suttam, the Pali term `cira' has been used twice as `Aciruupasampanno' and `naciraseva'. It would be quite interesting to see how Bhikkhu Bodhi would cope with two forms of cira. "Alattha kho acelo kassapo bhagavato santike pabbajjam, alattha upasampadam. Aciruupasampanno ca panaayasmaa kassapo eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto viharato nacirasseva yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariyam pabbajanti tadanuttaram brahmacariyapariyosaanam di.t.theva dhamme sayam abhiaa sacchikatvaa upasampajja vihaasi. `Khii.naa jaati, vusitam brahmacariyam, katam kara.niiyam, naaparam itthattaayaa'ti abbhaaasi. Aataro ca panaayasmaa kassapo arahatam ahosiiti." Thanking in advance. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #102413 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What isn't Kamma-Vipaka? nilovg Hi Howard, well said, Nina. Op 18-nov-2009, om 14:17 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha spoke of tears filling oceans across aeons in samsara, but > also spoke of the possibility of awakening within a week. A foolish > optimist counts on the latter, a foolish pessimist on the former. > The realist > counts on neither, but just does what needs to be done as best s/he > can. ------- N: There is always the present moment and then one does not long for the future. #102414 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What isn't Kamma-Vipaka? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/18/2009 9:34:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, well said, Nina. ---------------------------------- Thanks, Nina. :-) -------------------------------- Op 18-nov-2009, om 14:17 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha spoke of tears filling oceans across aeons in samsara, but > also spoke of the possibility of awakening within a week. A foolish > optimist counts on the latter, a foolish pessimist on the former. > The realist > counts on neither, but just does what needs to be done as best s/he > can. ------- N: There is always the present moment and then one does not long for the future. ----------------------------------------- Yes. Such longing just gets in the way. ========================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102415 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:33 am Subject: Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > > A: What are necessary conditions for arising of ear-consciousness (hearing)? Ear faculty, external sound object, air, space and attention. > > pt: > Could you please let me know where did you see "air" as a condition for ear-consciousness? > > I'm asking because to me it makes sense that air should be a condition for hearing (for example, hearing isn't possible in outer space because there's no air or any other medium for sound to propagate through), but, air is strangely absent as a condition for hearing in Visuddhimagga: > > This is from Nina's book on rupas: > > The "Visuddhimagga" (XV,39) states: "Ear-consciousness arises due to ear, sound, aperture and attention." "Aperture" is the cavity of the ear. > > pt: > So strangely, no air mentioned, though it is mentioned as condition for smelling, which makes sense. > > Best wishes > pt > Hi Pt, all, It is good that you've read what I've wrote. In that case I've added air (as a transmission medium) because as I understand it, you cannot hear in a vacuum. But since hearing belongs to material sphere, which contains all 4 elements, 4 elements in certain proportion are present in all 5 sense processes. The CMA lists these 4 requirements: 1) ear-sensitivity (sotappasada) 2) sound (saddaramana) 3) space (akasa) 4) attention (manasikara) With metta, Alex #102416 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:44 am Subject: Elements in cognitive process, 5th vs 21st century science on Elements truth_aerator Dear Nina, Pt, all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, pt, > Op 18-nov-2009, om 4:50 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > > > This is from Nina's book on rupas: > > > > The "Visuddhimagga" (XV,39) states: "Ear-consciousness arises due > > to ear, sound, aperture and attention." "Aperture" is the cavity of > > the ear. > > > > pt: > > So strangely, no air mentioned, though it is mentioned as condition > > for smelling, which makes sense. > ------- > N: Space in the ear is a condition for hearing. Space is not a > condiiton for seeing, as Alex suggested. > Nina. In those cases I was using literal 4 great primaries. I am not very convinced that for an eye-door process one needs aloka. I believe space and even literal physical object such as dust particles (earth) is required. ear-door doesn't require just space (akasa) but air as well. You cannot hear in a vaccuum or deep space! I may be bringing up modern physics into it, but I don't want 5th century science to override 21st century discoveries. With metta, Alex #102417 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What isn't Kamma-Vipaka? nilovg Hi Howard, Op 18-nov-2009, om 16:42 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: There is always the present moment and then one does not long for > the future. > ----------------------------------------- > H: Yes. Such longing just gets in the way. ----- N: But it is a reality and thus it can be known too. Then there is no getting in the way for that moment. Nina. #102418 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is mind partially made of "subtle matter" or is it fully mental? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 17-nov-2009, om 22:22 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Q2: Does manayatana include subtle matter? ------- N: This includes all cittas, thus not ruupa. Only dhammadhaatu includes subtle ruupas. ---------- > Q3: Does mano dhatu include subtle matter? -------- N: this includes sense-door adverting-consciousness and the two types of sampa.ticchanacitta, thus not ruupa. ------------ > Q4: What about arupa planes where matter is absent? ------- N: Naama can arise without ruupa. ------- N: as to M 109: namarupam kho bhikkhu, hetu nama rupam paccayo vinnanakkhandhassa pannapanayati. MN109: naaama and ruupa and vi~n~naa.na are mutually dependent, and here rebirth-consciousness is meant according to the co. Naama stands here for the accompanying cetasikas and ruupa for the heart-base decad. Not the best of ideas to combine modern science with condiitonality, it is not precise enough. Nina. #102419 From: han tun Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah's Faulty Personal Opinions hantun1 Dear Suan, Thank you very much for your further explanation. Suan: If you have spare time, please kindly type out the following last paragraph of Acelakassapa Suttam as Dhamma Daana. In this Suttam, the Pali term 'cira' has been used twice as 'Aciruupasampanno' and 'naciraseva' . It would be quite interesting to see how Bhikkhu Bodhi would cope with two forms of cira. "Alattha kho acelo kassapo bhagavato santike pabbajjam, alattha upasampadam. Aciruupasampanno ca panaayasmaa kassapo eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto viharato nacirasseva yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariyam pabbajanti tadanuttaram brahmacariyapariyos aanam di.t.theva dhamme sayam abhiaa sacchikatvaa upasampajja vihaasi. 'Khii.naa jaati, vusitam brahmacariyam, katam kara.niiyam, naaparam itthattaayaa' ti abbhaaasi. Aataro ca panaayasmaa kassapo arahatam ahosiiti." -------------------- Han: Here is the translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi: Then the naked ascetic Kassapa received the going forth under the Blessed One, and he received the higher ordination. And soon, not long after his higher ordination, dwelling alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute, the Venerable Kassapa, by realizing it for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life entered and dwelt in that unsurpassed goal of the holy life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from the household life into homelessness. He directly knew: "Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being." And the Venerable Kassapa became one of the arahants. -------------------- Han: 'Aciruupasampanno' = acira + upasampanna. I find that 'acira' and 'naciraseva' are translated together as 'soon, not long after'. Thank you very much, once again. with metta and respect, Uncle Han Tun #102420 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What isn't Kamma-Vipaka? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/18/2009 1:57:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 18-nov-2009, om 16:42 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: There is always the present moment and then one does not long for > the future. > ----------------------------------------- > H: Yes. Such longing just gets in the way. ----- N: But it is a reality and thus it can be known too. Then there is no getting in the way for that moment. ---------------------------------------- Yes, I quite agree. --------------------------------------- Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102421 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:01 pm Subject: Re: Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah’s Faulty Personal Opinions kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com , "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > > > Dear Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Alex, Freawaru, Howard, Robert K, Phil, Jon, Sarah, Ken O > > How are you? > > Uncle U Han Tun described how the Buddha taught the two benefits of undertaking Satipa.t.thaana as an intensive practice as follows. > > "Ti.t.thatu bhikkhave a.d.dhamaaso, yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaaro > satipa.t.thaane eva.m bhaaveyya sattaaha.m, tassa dvinna.m phalaana.m > a~n~natara.m phala.m paa.tika"nkha.m di.t.theva dhamme a~n~naa, sati vaa upaadisese anaagaamitaa ti." > > "Let alone half a month, bhikkhus. If anyone should develop these four > foundations of mindfulness in such a way for seven days, one of two fruits could be expected for him: either final knowledge here and now, or if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return." > > Section 404, Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam, Mahaavaggo, Dighanikaayo ------- Dear Han and Suan, Thankyou for discussing this topic. So far, Suan has told us that there *is* a formal vipassana practice. He has said the above quote refers to this practice. In fact, the quote asserts that there can be development of the four foundations of mindfulness. But no one here has ever disputed that! The inclusion of "for seven days" doesn't change anything at all. The question still remains; what is meant by "develop these four foundations"? Is it an instruction to formally practice in some way, or is it a description of conditioned dhammas? -------------- S: > "Sayadaw U Nyanissara said that to be able to achieve the goal within seven days,one would have to carry out intensive practice. How intensive? Sayadaw said, "Take one meal a day. Sleep only three hours a night. Leave one hour for washing and cleaning the body. Then, practice for 20 hours a day. If you do that, you might achieve the goal in seven days." --------------- The only thing I have learnt from that quote is that washing and cleaning are excluded from the Sayadaw's formal practice. But apart from that, what is the formal practice? --------------------- Suan: > It may not be easy to practice as Sayadaw said, but Sayadaw said like that to highlight the importance of intensive practice." Thank you, Uncle. What Dutiya Migajaala Suttam, Bhikkhu Suttam, and Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam, among others, taught us is that the Buddha expected his followers to undertake samatha and vipassanaa formally and intensively. This expectation of the Buddha has been reflected in such Pali phrases as `nacirasseva' in Dutiya Migajaala Suttam and `eva.m bhaaveyya sattaaha.m' in Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam. --------------------- I am not at all impressed by Suan's tactics. He is saying that the words "for a short while" or "for seven days" are proof of formal practice. They aren't! He has also said (previiously) that anyone who disagrees with him is guilty of wrong speech. Those tactics won't work at DSG. Suan is avoiding the same question I have asked him several times over several years: what (in his opinion) is formal vipassana practice, and where is it found in the Pali texts? In the absence of a reply I must read between the lines. Suan consistently compliments formal meditators at DSG on "doing the good work." As far as I can see, it doesn't matter what the meditator's understanding of the Dhamma might be, and it doesn't matter in what form the formal meditation takes place. And so my conclusion is: the only thing that does matter to Suan is that the meditator is *trying to do something.* That is a sorry state of affairs, but it doesn't surprise me in the least. Any attempt at proving a formal vipassana practice can only fail. The Dhamma and the four foundations of mindfulness are all about understanding conditioned realities. They are not about "trying to do something." Ken H #102422 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. ptaus1 Dear Nina, (Re: 102034) Thanks for your reply. I've considered what you've said and it makes sense. In particular I like this: > N: When the objective is not daana, siila or bhaavanaa we think with akusala citta, often with lobha. There is also one thing I still can't understand: > N: When seeing is kusala vipaakacitta its object is pleasant, and > when it is akusala vipaakacitta its object is unpleasant, I'm a bit confused here - if the "object", as we determined earlier is kind of like a seen panorama (no specific shapes/objects, nor colors singled out yet), then it seems that pleasantness/unpleasantness has nothing to do with the "object" that's seen. I mean, it seems as if the pleasantness/unpleasantness has to do with the seeing citta itself, not the the object of that citta, because the object in every instance seems to be just a panorama without any distinguishing features to make it different from the panorama seen in some other moment. Or am I misunderstanding something? Thanks. (I promise I'll get to more practical daily life questions soon, I'd just like to get the theory straight first) Best wishes pt #102423 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:07 pm Subject: Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself ptaus1 Hi Alex, Thanks for your reply. Best wishes pt > In that case I've added air (as a transmission medium) because as I understand it, you cannot hear in a vacuum. But since hearing belongs to material sphere, which contains all 4 elements, 4 elements in certain proportion are present in all 5 sense processes. > > > The CMA lists these 4 requirements: > 1) ear-sensitivity (sotappasada) > 2) sound (saddaramana) > 3) space (akasa) > 4) attention (manasikara) #102424 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for the clarification. > N: Space in the ear is a condition for hearing. What is your understanding why a medium is not cited as a condition for hearing? As mentioned, sound as a natural phenomenon cannot exist without a medium like air, water, etc. The only explanation I can think of is if by "sound" as "object" - the same thing is meant in abhidhamma as you explained me the case of the visual object. I.e. it is not some sound source out there like a dog-bark, or car-horn, that would require air as a medium so that sound waves can be transferred from the sound-source to the ear-drum, but, it is just whatever is present at the cochlea (inner ear), or passada rupa in the ear, so again kind of like an "audible panorama" without any objects singled out yet. In that case it might not be necessary to mention a medium (air, water, even body itself) as a crucial condition I guess, even though without it there would be no sound to impinge on the ear in the first place. Best wishes pt #102425 From: Herman Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality notes I've made to myself egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/17 truth_aerator > Hello all, > > I've made a little note for myself and decided to share it here as well. > > Thank you. <......> > What are necessary conditions for arising of mind-consciousness > (awareness)? > Mind faculty, mental object, sub-consciousness (bhavanga) and attention. > Mind faculty is a partially subtle matter and mostly mental (non-physical). > Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with of mind-contact as > nutriment, mind-sensation, perception of abstract ideas, and mind-volition. > Thus it is mostly mental. > I know what sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch sensations are. I don't know what awareness is if it is something other than thinking about any of the above. Is that what you mean by it too? Also, you introduce into the above a matter/mental dichotomy. I think that is going to cause you a lot of difficulties :-) . Just look at Eastern and Western philosophical traditions that have mind/matter duality as a maxim. After 2500 years they still can't explain how matter and mind interface. Can you? Cheers Herman #102426 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality notes I've made to myself truth_aerator Hi Herman, all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2009/11/17 truth_aerator > > > Hello all, > > > > I've made a little note for myself and decided to share it here as well. > > > > > Thank you. > > <......> > > > > What are necessary conditions for arising of mind-consciousness > > (awareness)? > > > Mind faculty, mental object, sub-consciousness (bhavanga) and attention. > > Mind faculty is a partially subtle matter and mostly mental (non-physical). > > Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with of mind-contact as > > nutriment, mind-sensation, perception of abstract ideas, and mind-volition. > > Thus it is mostly mental. > > > >H: I know what sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch sensations are. >I don't know what awareness is if it is something other than >thinking >about any of the above. Is that what you mean by it too? Awareness is knowing X is happening. Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch sensations, ideas are objects that one can cognize. We can also say that awareness is the presence of 6 sense phenomena. Generally I like to translate vinnana as awareness. >Also, you introduce into the above a matter/mental dichotomy. I think that is going to cause you a lot of > difficulties :-) . Just look at Eastern and Western philosophical traditions > that have mind/matter duality as a maxim. After 2500 years they still can't > explain how matter and mind interface. Can you? > > Cheers > > > Herman A little correction to what I've wrote above: Mind as a function itself is totally mental (though it can take present material objects as objects of the mind, or memory of prior mental objects). Some of the causes for origination of the mind are physical, but originating causes and function itself are not necessarily the same. = corrected --- What are necessary conditions for arising of mind-consciousness (awareness)? Mind faculty, mental object, sub-consciousness (bhavanga) and attention. Mind faculty is mental. Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with of mind-contact as nutriment, mind-sensation, perception of abstract ideas, and volition toward ideas. Primary functions of matter condition further matter and physical sense organs and physical external sense objects. ==== With metta, Alex #102427 From: Herman Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality notes I've made to myself egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/19 truth_aerator > Hi Herman, all > > > > > > > > What are necessary conditions for arising of mind-consciousness > > > (awareness)? > > > > > Mind faculty, mental object, sub-consciousness (bhavanga) and > attention. > > > Mind faculty is a partially subtle matter and mostly mental > (non-physical). > > > Attention is mental (nama) factor that arises with of mind-contact as > > > nutriment, mind-sensation, perception of abstract ideas, and > mind-volition. > > > Thus it is mostly mental. > > > > > > > > >H: I know what sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch sensations are. >I > don't know what awareness is if it is something other than >thinking >about > any of the above. Is that what you mean by it too? > > Awareness is knowing X is happening. Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch > sensations, ideas are objects that one can cognize. There is room in what you say above to think that you allow for sights, sounds etc which are unknown. Is that correct, ie do you allow for that? > We can also say that awareness is the presence of 6 sense phenomena. > > Generally I like to translate vinnana as awareness. > I'm just wondering what the awareness adds that isn't already in the phenomena? > > > > >Also, you introduce into the above a matter/mental dichotomy. I think that > is going to cause you a lot of > > difficulties :-) . Just look at Eastern and Western philosophical > traditions > > that have mind/matter duality as a maxim. After 2500 years they still > can't > > explain how matter and mind interface. Can you? > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Herman > > > A little correction to what I've wrote above: > > > > Mind as a function itself is totally mental (though it can take present > material objects as objects of the mind, or memory of prior mental objects). > Some of the causes for origination of the mind are physical, but originating > causes and function itself are not necessarily the same. > What or where is the bridge that connects matter to mind? Cheers Herman #102428 From: Herman Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/11/17 sarah abbott > Hi Lukas, > > S: As it happens, last week I was very sick one night. I'd eaten something > which caused quite a violent reaction and I was vommiting all night I am sorry to hear it. > - most unusual for me. I hope you have returned to good health. > I spent most the night in the bathroom Please do not take offence at what follows. I fully understand that you would go to the bathroom every time you felt you were going to vomit. I would have done the same. But, why do you question people who seek out an appropriate setting to learn and cultivate samatha/jhana, but have no qualms about seeking out an appropriate place to vomit? Cheers Herman #102429 From: han tun Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah's Faulty Personal Opinions hantun1 Dear Ken (Suan), Han: Sayadaw U Nyanissara said that to be able to achieve the goal within seven days, one would have to carry out intensive practice. How intensive? Sayadaw said, "Take one meal a day. Sleep only three hours a night. Leave one hour for washing and cleaning the body. Then, practice for 20 hours a day. If you do that, you might achieve the goal in seven days." It may not be easy to practice as Sayadaw said, but Sayadaw said like that to highlight the importance of intensive practice. Ken: The only thing I have learnt from that quote is that washing and cleaning are excluded from the Sayadaw's formal practice. But apart from that, what is the formal practice? Han: I did not use the word "formal". The "practice" or "intensive practice" that I am referring to is the "practice" as advised by the Buddha in Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Sutta. There are many instructions or guidelines in the sutta. To start with, in the outline or synopsis (uddesa) of Mahaa Satipa.t.thana sutta, there are the following sentences. (1) Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m. (There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in and of itself, ardent, alert, and mindful, putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world.) [To repeat for vedanaa, citta and dhamma.] Now, the three words, "aataapii sampajaano satimaa" are explained very briefly by Ven Payutto as follows: ---------- 1. Atapi (there is effort). This refers to Samma Vayama (Right Effort), the sixth factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, which entails guarding against and abandoning what is unwholesome and creating and maintaining what is wholesome. 2. Sampajano (there is clear comprehension). This refers to the wisdom-faculty. 3. Satima (there is mindfulness). ---------- The words, "vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m" are explained by Ven Payutto as: "he destroys covetousness and distress with regard to the world". It demonstrates the attitude that results from the possession of sati-sampaja~n~na as being one of equanimity and freedom, a state unbound by defilements, whether rooted in attachment or in aversion. When one practises in this way, the mind becomes spacious and bright, and neither desire and attachment nor sorrow and aversion can overwhelm it. These are the guiding principles for the development of satipa.t.thaana. ==================== At the end of each section of Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Sutta, there are also guiding principles for the development of satipa.t.thaana. For example, after kaayaanupassanaa, (1) Iti ajjhatta.m vaa kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati. Bahiddhaa vaa kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati. Ajjhattabahiddhaa vaa kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati. (In this way he remains focused internally on the body in and of itself, or externally on the body in and of itself, or both internally and externally on the body in and of itself.) (2) Samudayadhammaanupassii vaa kaayasmi.m viharati. Vayadhammaanupassii vaa kaayasmi.m viharati. Samudayavayadhammaanupassii vaa kaayasmi.m viharati. (Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination and passing away with regard to the body.) (3) Atthi kaayoti vaa panassa sati paccupa.t.thitaa hoti yaavadeva ~naa.namattaaya patissatimattaaya. (Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge and remembrance. (4) Anissito ca viharati. Na ca ki~nci loke upaadiyati. (And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world.) (5) Evampi bhikkhave bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati. (This is how a monk remains focused on the body in and of itself.) ==================== As regards the position of the body, the Buddha advised for sitting-down meditation as follows. Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu ara~n~nagato vaa rukkhamuulagato vaa su~n~nagaaragato vaa nisiidati palla"nka.m aabhujitvaa uju.m kaaya.m pa.nidhaaya parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa. So satova assasati, sato passasati. "There is the case where a monk having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out." ==================== There are also instructions regarding Modes of Deportment (iriyaapatha pabba). Thus there are a lot of physical and mental activities involved, and a lot of things to do. However, when you said [The Dhamma and the four foundations of mindfulness are all about understanding conditioned realities. They are not about "trying to do something."] I have nothing more to say. Respectfully, Han #102430 From: Herman Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: chat with Scott egberdina Hi Scott, 2009/11/18 scottduncan2 In future, there is no need to tell me that you are not going to answer. That will become clear each time :-) <...> > There is no 'forcing' virtue either, Phil, which is what I see your attempt > to be. Respecting the underlying fact that no dhamma is subject to control, > waiting and patience in the face of akusala seems more natural; "Natural", in the context of dhammas, is a word without meaning, IMO. All dhammas are natural, by virtue of the fact that they have arisen and ceased, not? I only post this because sometimes I come across this strange belief at dsg that certain activities are less natural than others, and others more natural. Cheers Herman #102431 From: "colette" Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's last word, IGNORANCE IS BLISS ksheri3 Sarah, It's easy: you applied the subject of the Buddha theoretically have a last word THUS if the Past Dharma and the Future Dharma are non-existant and sunya THEN the PRESENT DHARMA IS THE ONLY REALITY OF HAVING A POTENTIAL FOR EXISTANCE. YOU PLAY DUMB WITH THE FIRST AND THE LAST, THE BEGINING AND THE END, TWO EXTREMES, YET YOU ARE SO WILLING TO USE THE DRUG OF THE EXTREMES TO BRING YOU HAPPINESS. This said we observe your jest at the Buddha's alleged, supposed Last Word which is exactly like the first word, they could be mirror images. We can even get a handful of salt from Lot's wife and rub it into the open wound by playing that stupid game that meglamaniacs play in their ivory towers by demanding that the rules be obeyed and the rules are only existant in a two dimensional format thus, they sit on their turntable with the little protrusion sticking up from the turntable to be inserted in the whole of the record, the platter, the fashion plate, the model, and they can glorify themselves in their sobomistic way by crying like babies. The first is the last: PROVE IT? Like the masons say: "...as above so below", correct? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > --- On Fri, 13/11/09, colette wrote: > >I'm outside the THERAVADAN DOCTRINE and I'm applying the Madhyamika concept of a single "individuality" for lack of a better word i.e. PAST DHARMA, PRESENT DHARMA, FUTURE DHARMA are all the same dharma this is no differentiation between the labels, thus exhibiting Shunayata, however in the case we are engaged in I had fun with your thought that the Buddha actually had this alleged "last word" which means that it must replicate the first word, no? > ..d > S: Sorry, Colette. I appreciate your explanation, but none of it makes any sense to me and don't understand your question at the end. > > Metta > > Sarah > > > >C: Sarah, are you suggesting what the Buddha's first words when he immerged from the incubator? > > ... > > S: No! > #102432 From: "colette" Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:39 pm Subject: Re:Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying ksheri3 Good Morning Phil, Wow, interacting with you guys is something! while Howard has recently given me the ability to actually verbalize certain conditions that exist in the meditational practices, et al, that I've always performed, you seem to OPEN THE DOOR WIDE TO THE REALITY OF MENTAL CONDITIONING OR MIND TRAINING WHICH I HAVE DONE SINCE 1981 when some old guy in San Diego California asked me what I was doing taking Tai Qwan Do classes in National City area of San Diego. After some time talking he came to the conclusion that studying the martial arts was not for me, not in my best interests, I should study magik and such. From what little I know of the martial arts you clearly show the technique of TRANSFORMING PAIN by giving me the chance to finish all of your thoughts in my head based upon my own actual person EXPERIENCES. The sensation is phenomenal and extra-ordinary! Quickly, in the few minutes I have left, PAIN does not exist! The mind thinks of PAIN and how PAIN is supposed to feel, but that is only the blind following the blind, going along to get along. The pain is all in your mind. My body has undergone so many surgories and I have gone through so many painful experiences that when I see or feel this supposed illusion of pain I have the ability to go into a meditation and examine the pain from the perspective of the THIRD PARTY. It's weird but probably only because I have experienced so much pain in my life that I can do such things. I could go on deeper but don't have the time. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philofillet" wrote: > > > Hi Staisha, Sarah, Lukas and all > > > > > > Hi sarah, i hope all is well. Glad to see you were paying attention to paramattha, instead of living in the moment of concept pannati. Delusion can appear so quick, and prevents one from being aware of the reality. To have direct expierce of ultimate reality of change, anicca,dukka,anata. And also understand the nature of the 5 khanda with various mental factors,their interrelation ship, process by which the mind functions,the four noble truths. How quick and subtle.. > > Ph: Don't forget that there are concepts about concepts, and concepts about realities. I forget the exact name for these terms, they are laid out in the very good little book extracted from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas called "Concepts and Realities." When we are thinking about paramattha dhammas because we are having upsetting or painful experiences, we are still lost in a world of concepts. <...> #102433 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] and another thing about the INVASION: egberdina Hi colette, 2009/11/18 colette > Hi Howard, > > I luv it: you've given the position that NO EVIDENCE IS PRESENT THAT > ESTABLISHES THE EXISTANCE OF ANOTHER MIND OR OTHER MINDS. The question then > comes: does another mind other than your own mind, exist? Brace yourself. I am not talking about you personally, the same goes for anyone, but there is no evidence that your mind exists either! There simply is no privileged access to anything called a mind, any mind. Not by anyone, regardless of their resume. What there is, well, mostly it's just thinking. Cheers Herman #102434 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:41 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 11. nilovg Dear friends, Citta experiences pleasant and unpleasant objects through the senses and through the mind-door. When a pleasant object is experienced, attachment is likely to arise and when an unpleasant object is experienced, aversion is likely to arise. It is natural that pleasant objects are liked and unpleasant objects are disliked. It seems that we are ruled by the objects which are experienced. The pleasant object or unpleasant object is a condition for the citta which arises, but there is nothing compulsive in the nature of the object that could determine the reaction towards it. It depends on ones accumulated inclinations whether one reacts in a wholesome way or in an unwholesome way to the pleasant and unpleasant objects which are experienced through the senses and through the mind-door. After seeing, hearing or the experience of objects through the other senses there can be unwise attention or wise attention to the object. When there is unwise attention to the object, there are akusala cittas, and when there is wise attention to the object, there are kusala cittas. When there is a pleasant object, there can be attachment and in that case there is unwise attention. We may, for example, only be intent on our own enjoyment of the pleasant object and not inclined to share it with others. Whereas, when there is wise attention, we are inclined to share a pleasant object with others, and then there are kusala cittas with generosity. When there is an unpleasant object, there can be aversion and thus there is unwise attention. Someone else may for example speak harsh words to us and most of the time we dislike such speech, we even blame that person for his harsh speech. Aversion, however, does not necessarily have to arise. When it is remembered that the person who speaks harshly makes himself unhappy there may be compassion instead of anger or aversion. When there is wise attention there can be forbearance and patience even when the object is unpleasant. ***** Nina. #102435 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah's Faulty Personal Opinions nilovg Dear Han, Op 19-nov-2009, om 5:09 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Sayadaw U Nyanissara said that to be able to achieve the goal > within seven days, one would have to carry out intensive practice. > How intensive? Sayadaw said, "Take one meal a day. Sleep only three > hours a night. Leave one hour for washing and cleaning the body. > Then, practice for 20 hours a day. If you do that, you might > achieve the goal in seven days." It may not be easy to practice as > Sayadaw said, but Sayadaw said like that to highlight the > importance of intensive practice. -------- N: I would think that for somebody who is an ariyan and close to becoming an arahat, it would come naturally to do with three hours of sleep. He has eradicated the wrong view of self, and thus, whatever he does, he does not do it with an idea of 'I am practising'. But for ordinary people, it is different. If we try to imitate such practise it is dangerous for mental health and bodily health. We still need to draw near and listen to the right friend in the Dhamma, to consider the Dhamma in our daily life. We have to face endless problems, worries, pains, and it is important to understand that clinging to an idea of self is the cause of our problems. We have to understand that whatever appears is a conditioned dhamma, a naama or a ruupa. Even worry or pain is a conditioned dhamma. If such understanding does not develop to the degree that the wrong view of self can be eradicated, any kind of intensive practice is bound to be a failure. If we would sit for twenty hours concentrating on breathing without penetrating the characteristics of nama and rupa which arise because of their own conditions, the wrong view of self cannot be eradicated and we shall never reach the goal. Nina. #102436 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:26 am Subject: Re:Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying sarahprocter... Hi Lukas (& Phil), --- On Wed, 18/11/09, philofillet wrote: >p.s I hope you are feeling better Lukas. If you are still averse to meditating on the breath, I would recommend yoga or other kind of breathing exercises, or other forms of gentle, healing excercise combined with healthy diet and of course a visit to a doctor if the painful, anxious feeling continue.... ... S: Lukas, I certainly agree with Phil's gist (and Nina's comments before) - gentle exercise, possibly relaxation exs, healthy diet and I would add, also sufficient sleep, are all included in natural decisive support condition for one's well-being. Also, as Phil suggests, we need to be sensible about visiting a dr and taking medication if called for. Food, sleep, exercise and so on are also medicines, though of course, the most important medicine of all is the Buddha's teachings. I'm just adding this note because some people (not you) do have ideas that one should be able to manage on only 3 hrs sleep, eat one small meal a day and needn't see a dr or take medicine if sick. This would all be indicative of some very wrong understanding of the Dhamma iho. Take care Metta Sarah ======= #102437 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 11. szmicio Dear Nina, > When there is an > unpleasant object, there can be aversion and thus there is unwise > attention. Someone else may for example speak harsh words to us and > most of the time we dislike such speech, we even blame that person > for his harsh speech. Aversion, however, does not necessarily have to > arise. When it is remembered that the person who speaks harshly makes > himself unhappy there may be compassion instead of anger or aversion. L: And when we start to think: this person, that person. We start to hurt ourselves. In the Buddha teachings the reason for all kusala is understanding of 4 noble truths. And without this, it is just pleasant dream. When someone is saying harsh words that is just akusala vipaka. It can be differenciated in another yoniso manasikara process later on. But it does not depend on anyone. Very natural, no one can achive this. Actually right thinking, right view on level of sacca-nana, can help accumualate right understanding. Of course I understand what you want to say: The kind of samatha panna that understand the kusalaness value. After vipaka processes there are concepts and they condition metta afterward. Concepts here are a condition to metta. But still I prefer to say: characteristic of metta now. Belive me so many miserable people just because we say develop metta. They dont understand that. I dont understand. We need to made detailed explanation then. Just as Theras said, listen listen more, to understand. Best wishes Lukas #102438 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:57 am Subject: Re:Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying szmicio Dear Sarah, I always enjoy so much what you or Nina are writing. Or when reading Buddha words directly. He made so many vibhangas, he was so great vibhajavadi, the master of distinction. He wanted to help us all with such a great compassion. Philosophical ideas cannot condition understanding, even those are about Dhamma. Only vibhanga can do this. We should be very courage to not see for empty words, but see the essence. The vibhnaga that heard can condition right understanding. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Lukas (& Phil), > > --- On Wed, 18/11/09, philofillet wrote: > >p.s I hope you are feeling better Lukas. If you are still averse to meditating on the breath, I would recommend yoga or other kind of breathing exercises, or other forms of gentle, healing excercise combined with healthy diet and of course a visit to a doctor if the painful, anxious feeling continue.... > ... > S: Lukas, I certainly agree with Phil's gist (and Nina's comments before) - gentle exercise, possibly relaxation exs, healthy diet and I would add, also sufficient sleep, are all included in natural decisive support condition for one's well-being. L: Right. > Also, as Phil suggests, we need to be sensible about visiting a dr and taking medication if called for. Food, sleep, exercise and so on are also medicines, though of course, the most important medicine of all is the Buddha's teachings. > > I'm just adding this note because some people (not you) do have ideas that one should be able to manage on only 3 hrs sleep, eat one small meal a day and needn't see a dr or take medicine if sick. This would all be indicative of some very wrong understanding of the Dhamma iho. Best wishes Lukas #102439 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 11. szmicio Dear Nina Actually you are right, this "The person that saying harsh words is grieving" is very good distinction made by Buddha many times. This is very helpful. But sometimes we can take it in a wrong way. We can start to think about persont and things. And this wasnt buddha purpose. I can say you how I react on Dhamma. I read Titha Sutta, and I see how this vibhanga is made, how it is accurate. How buddha was compassionate to us that he made this distinction. Very wise. AAnd after hearing this, the refaing from discusssion or quarelling appears. So thats good. It works! I see the value of Dhamma in this way. How it helps me. This Sutta is just another vibhanga. Some people can start to read and they thing of people that are quarelling they are stupid or something. And this is really not the point. I think This is just my opinionm, and how I see that. best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > > > When there is an > > unpleasant object, there can be aversion and thus there is unwise > > attention. Someone else may for example speak harsh words to us and > > most of the time we dislike such speech, we even blame that person > > for his harsh speech. Aversion, however, does not necessarily have to > > arise. When it is remembered that the person who speaks harshly makes > > himself unhappy there may be compassion instead of anger or aversion. > > L: And when we start to think: this person, that person. We start to hurt ourselves. In the Buddha teachings the reason for all kusala is understanding of 4 noble truths. And without this, it is just pleasant dream. > > When someone is saying harsh words that is just akusala vipaka. It can be differenciated in another yoniso manasikara process later on. But it does not depend on anyone. Very natural, no one can achive this. Actually right thinking, right view on level of sacca-nana, can help accumualate right understanding. > > Of course I understand what you want to say: The kind of samatha panna that understand the kusalaness value. After vipaka processes there are concepts and they condition metta afterward. Concepts here are a condition to metta. But still I prefer to say: characteristic of metta now. Belive me so many miserable people just because we say develop metta. They dont understand that. I dont understand. We need to made detailed explanation then. Just as Theras said, listen listen more, to understand. > > Best wishes > Lukas > #102440 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Third kind of nibbana element and cessation sarahprocter... Dear pt, As usual, you raise interesting points.. --- On Wed, 18/11/09, ptaus1 wrote: > > S: While still alive, the rupas conditioned by past kamma of the Buddha and all arahats are still a) upadana khandha. > >pt: > >So, how about nama khandas of the Buddha and arahats before parinibbana? Considering that there is no more lobha or moha for them, these are not clinging-aggregates anymore, right? > .... > S: Are they not also an object of clinging for others? Didn't the Buddha's followers, inc. Ananda, become stressed at the thought of his parinibbana? Don't we cling to the wonderful virtues of the 'pure' as well as appreciating these qualities? All are upadana khandha for those with attachment arising >pt: Yes, agreed that they are objects of clinging for others, but I meant for arahats/buddhas themselves - they do not cling to their nama aggregates anymore, and yet their nama aggregates still operate! ... S: Yes, for the rest of that life only. That's why the texts refer to a) kilesa-parinibbaana or sa-upaadi-sesa-nibbaana (Nibbana with the khandhas still remaining and b) khandha-parinibbaana or an-upaadi-sesa-nibbaana (Nibbana without the khandhas remaining, i.e no more of samsaara at the death of the arahat). ... >For the rupa aggregate, I agree that they are a result of past kamma and thus may still be classified as upadana khandas, even though there's no more clinging to rupa aggregate by arahats/buddhas. ... S: Not just the rupa aggregate, but all the khandhas continue to be upadana khandha when clung to by any being. Even if an arahat lives alone in a forest, there may be clinging by other sentient beings to the arahat's khandhas. ... >So what are nama aggregates of arahats/buddhas for themeselves? I don't see yet on what basis these would still be clinging-aggregates for them. ... S: It means the khandhas are objects of clinging, not of course by the arahats. As I said, like when Ananda stood weeping when he knew the Buddha was about to attain parinibbaana - this was on account of the Buddha's khandhas as object of clinging. (This is one of those topics which I think is widely misunderstood, even by Theravada writers, so you'll read other ideas about it). ... >> S: "And did not the Exalted One emerge from Fourth Jhaana before he passed utterly away immediately after?" [S: Mahaparinibbana Sutta]. >pt: By the way, is there any mention in the commentary to Mahaparinibbana sutta why did the Buddha go through all the jhanas back and forth before dying? There are all sorts of ideas about it floating around on the internet, so I'm wondering what's the classical position on that. Thanks. ... S: As I understand, this is all according to the order of things for Buddhas. All Buddhas eat meat on the day of their parinibbana and attain "24,000 crores of attainments" before the parinibbana, according to the commentary to the Buddhavamsa, 'Clarifier of Sweet Meaning' (PTS), 'Differences between the Buddhas'. In the commentary to the Mahaparinibbaana Sutta, it says (Ch VI, p 186, same text): "When entering the city of nibbaana, the Blessed One, Lord of dhamma, first attains all the attainments, numbering twenty-four hundred thousand kotis, and experiences all the bliss of attainment (samaapatti), just as one going to a foreign country first embraces all his relations. " 'On emerging from the fourth meditation, the Blessed One immediately attained parinibbaana':.....the Blessed One attained meditation and emerged from that, contemplated the constituents of his meditation [S: paccavekkhanaa, reviewing consciousness which reviews the jhaana"ngaa, jhaana factors], and attained parinibbaana with the subconsciousness [bhavanga] which is undeclated [S:cuti citta, the last citta of life], the truth of suffering. Whoever finish their life-span, whether Buddhas, Pacceka-buddhas or noble disciples, down to ants and termites, all do so with the subconsciousness which is undeclared, the truth of suffering." S: This is like the Kvu quote I gave which also stressed that the last citta of any life, even an arahat's has to be the cuti citta, the vipaka citta. " 'Liberation': there arose liberation unimpeded by anything (dhamma), the attainment of the state of total non-ideation (apa~n~natti) like the extinction of a lamp." Metta Sarah ======= #102441 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta sarahprocter... Dear pt, --- On Mon, 16/11/09, ptaus1 wrote: >> S: According to the texts, such as the the Mulapariyaya Sutta & its comy, > ma~n~naana refers to ta.nhaa (craving), maana (conceit) or di.t.thi (wrong view ). For example, "this is mine" (eta"m mama) refers to craving (without wrong view), "this am I" (eso'ham asmi) to conceit (without wrong view) and "eso me attaa" to wrong view. ... >pt: What is the English for "esso me atta"? "This is my self"? ... S: Yes ... >This seems very interesting as it might help distinguish between conceit and wrong view in real life - I understand that abhidhamma says that the two cannot arise together, but I just cannot separate them in experience as it seems conceit is possible only with wrong view... Thanks. ... S: Under the section on pathavi dhatu (earth element) in the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta, it gives examples of hair, nails, teeth and skin. For example, under the first one, simple craving, one might wish that one's hair was a different colour or texture or is attached to the way it is. Under conceit, on account of the beauty or ugliness of one's hair, there may be conceit, thinking it is superior, inferior or equal to someone else's. At that time, one is just comparing or even subtly judging another's hair-cut, for example, without comparing. There's no wrong idea of 'me' or 'someone' or 'a thing' at such a time. Under the wrong atta-view, the hair is taken as being part of one's body or jiiva (life-force). It is not understood as merely dhatus (elements), not belonging to anyone. At that moment of atta-di.t.thi, the hair itself is taken for being something. In the same way as for the internal elements, the text gives an example of external rupas (maybe of interest to others discussing internal/external rupas). It uses the example of iron and copper. One may delight in them, possess and guard them through craving. Or one may not possess them but wish to do so in future. Again, on account of the beauty or ugliness of such possessions, there may be conceit. Finally, the iron or copper may be taken for atta in various gross or subtle ways whenever there isn't an understanding of dhatus as dhatus. For example, the iron implement may be taken for something actual. Another good topic to discuss further. Metta Sarah p.s As usual, lots in U.P. under 'conceit and wrong view' or something similar:). ========== #102442 From: han tun Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah's Faulty Personal Opinions hantun1 Dear Nina, I was not very exact in telling what Sayadaw U Nyanissara said. What he said was one could not expect to achieve the goal in seven days as mentioned in the sutta, if one did not undertake intensive practice, and he outlined the 20 hours a day regimen as an example. It was not that he was asking every people to practice 20 hours a day. But he did stress the need for intensive practice to achieve the goal. In Burma, my cousin brother could sit three hours without moving any part of his body. His daughter-in-law could sit five hours without moving any part of her body. There are competitions at Mogok vipassanaa center in Mandalay, and they used to get prizes every year. Whether such a practice is useful or not I cannot say. As long as I am a puthujjana, I will not and cannot say any practice as useless or as a failure. I am not competent to pass any judgment. Respectfully, Han #102443 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: charactoristic of citta jonoabb Hi Howard (102274) > Well I think this thread has gone about as far as it can go without > repetition. Thanks for the discussion. Over and out from me ;-)) > > Last word to you. > --------------------------------------- > 'plastics' ;-)) > ---------------------------------------- ;-)), ;-)) Jon PS For those of you who are wondering what Howard's reply is all about, google "The Graduate just one word" and click on the video/you tube link. Definitely off-topic, though ;-)) #102444 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:46 am Subject: Re: Relpy to Ken O /with a new subject heading jonoabb Hi Alex (102279) > Can you clarify the exact differences between: > > "a formal kind of samatha practice". > > and > > > "higher stages of samatha are developed by a person who is already quite accomplished in that development". I'd describe the differnce in this way: - In formal samatha practice, the idea is to induce kusala to arise where there is otherwise no (or only occasional) kusala. - In the case of the person who is already accomplished in samatha, kusala arises frequently by virtue of having been developed and having become a habit. The problem with the former, as I see it, is that kusala cannot be induced in the manner expected. If that is so, then what is being developed must be akusala of one form or another. I think similar considerations would apply as regards deliberate action done with the aim of inducing any form of kusala to arise. Jon #102445 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: More questions about nimitta jonoabb Hi Alberto --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: > > May I suggest you keep notes or a list of any points which it would be helpful to discuss further with KS in Bkk in Feb? > Very sorry to hear this. Was looking forward to having you there. Any chance of a change of mind/circumstances? Jon #102446 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:50 am Subject: Re: Relpy to Ken O /with a new subject heading jonoabb Hi Phil (102283) > OK, I should have known as much :) > =============== J: Well I wouldn't want to disappoint you ;-)) > =============== > I think the directions to the "clansman who is a beginner" negates this view of yours, and the detailed, very mundane layout of instructions do as well, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Actually, a student of K.S once described the concentration section of Vism. to me a "mainly a meditation manual", and I think that word "manual" is correct. A "manual" contains instructions, I think. But I agree that there are many suttas that people would take as instructions that are more like descriptions of the awakening mind, and obviously the "understanding" section of Vism. falls in there. (And I'm sure many parts of the concentration section as well, but not, for example, the instructions for the "clansman who is a beginner" about how to count the breaths etc. > =============== J: I think you're referring to the following passage from Vism VIII, 190: "Herein, this clansman who is a beginner should first give attention to this meditation subject by counting. And when counting, he should not stop short of five or go beyond ten or make any break in the series." This section of the text is dealing with the development of samatha, and in particular samatha with breath as object (anapanasati). As we know, samatha is a kind of kusala. Everything mentioned here is to be understood as referring to kusala citta. Now if a person (such as you or me) in whom samatha is not already well developed were to sit down and start counting in-breaths and out-breaths, it could not be kusala, because neither breathing in and out nor counting breaths is a form of kusala. Where is the kusala in that? So despite the reference to "clansman who is a beginner", I think the passage is referring to someone of already well developed samatha who is a beginner only in the sense of the higher development described in the following sections of the text. Jon #102447 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:56 am Subject: Re: Formal instructions in VsM jonoabb Hi Icaro Good to see you back ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Icaro" wrote: > The author is sufiiciently honest to confess that it would be difficult to make a stand on these matters, and uses an instrumental definition to start on. "Profitable" ? It sounds strange. > > "Profitable" here is the old-fashioned way of translating "kusala", I'd guess. Jon #102448 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah's Faulty Personal Opinions nilovg Dear Han, Op 19-nov-2009, om 11:05 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > It was not that he was asking every people to practice 20 hours a > day. But he did stress the need for intensive practice to achieve > the goal. ------ N: Thank you very much for your clarification. Amazing about your relatives sitting so long. About getting prizes, I will not add anything. Nina. #102449 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: chat with Scott sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Phil), --- On Tue, 17/11/09, scottduncan2 wrote: >Consider Gradual Sayings (III, Book of the Fives, Ch XXI, Kimbila, 2, On Hearing Dhamma): "Monks, there are these five advantages from hearing Dhamma. What five? He hears things not heard; purges things heard; dispels doubt; makes straight his view; and his heart becomes calm. Verily, monks, these are the five advantages from hearing Dhamma." ... Sarah: Yes, of course this is listening with wise attention and of course it can be proved to be true.... .... Scott: Pariyatti would also be the impersonal 'study' of dhammas. When kusala arises, say in relation to lust, then this moment serves to dispel doubt and bring calm. Anxious wrestling with urges is also impersonal and akusala in my view. ... Sarah: Yes, pariyatti can only refer to kusala (wholesome) reflection and understanding of dhammas, never to akusala (unwholesome) states, even whilst supposedly studying the Dhamma..... only pa~n~naa (rt understanding) can know (for ourselves) at this moment... Do you have the Pali for the lines quoted above? Metta Sarah ======== #102450 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:07 am Subject: Re: Reply to Ken O /with a new subject heading jonoabb Hi pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > However I'm not clear on what is the actual difference between paths 1 and 3 I saw path 3 often mentioned on DSG (insight based on examining jhana factors after exiting), but not on path 1. I mean the first path seems to be more like what Alex is advocating (if I understand him correctly) first a lot of samatha, and mainly samatha, and then at some later point, insight. > =============== J: Someone may have already answered this question, in which case apologies for any repetition. The difference between paths 1 and 3, as I see it, is the difference between the person whose attainment to enlightenment has jhana (i.e., jhana citta) as basis and the person whose attainment to enlightenment is not with jhana as basis, despite having already attained jhana. Jon > 1. After developing samatha > The footnote says that this refers to one who makes tranquillity the > vehicle of his practice (samatha-yaanika). Tranquillity here refers to > access concentration, the jhanas or the formless attainments. > > 2. Before developing samatha > The commentary reads: "This refers to one who by his natural bent first > attains to insight and then, based on insight produces concentration > (samadhi)." The sub-com reads: "This is one who makes insight the > vehicle (vipassanaa-yaanika)." > > 3. In conjunction with the development of samatha > [This is the instance of insight being 'based on' jhana. The insight > arises after emerging from jhana, and takes the jhana moments as its > object. This is the 'yoked/conjoined' instance.]. > > 4. By overcoming the corruptions (ie without any part being played by > samatha) > The footnote reads: 'According to AA [the commentary], the "agitation" > (uddhacca) meant here is a reaction to the arising of the ten "corruptions > of insight" when they are wrongly taken as indication path-attainment. > The term dhammavitakka, "thoughts about higher states" is taken to refer > to the same ten corruptions. ' > #102452 From: "Icaro" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:19 am Subject: Re: Formal instructions in VsM icarofranca Hi Jon! > "Profitable" here is the old-fashioned way of translating "kusala", >I'd >guess. I think so. But I must say that I dont agree with it. Reading Vism today, it seems to me that anamoli was keeping on mind a notion of "Kusala" very close to the old Avesta/Zoroastrian notion of "Ashem Vohu" - "Righteousness Good", "Profitable", and so on. I will try P. Meung or Mas translations - I am not so fluent on Pali yet to try a direct reading on the Pali originals! It is good to be back at this noble company of clever minds indeed! Mettaya, caro #102453 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/11/17 sarah abbott > Hi Herman, > ... S: Yes. Because of those particular sights, sounds, smells etc, there are > conditions for particular kinds of thinking about concepts of a person. > Visible object is just visible object, just that which is seen. This doesn't > mean that each visible object is the same, that each sound is the same.. > .... > >There are clearly, if all of our behaviour is a guide, rupas that know, > and rupas that don't know. > > >What do you think? > ... > S: Not so. It is the thinking and other kinds of experiencing which "know". > Citta is the 'leader' in experiencing, in knowing. The sounds (of the > waterfall or the person) don't know anything. > Still, all you know of Jon is what you see, hear, smell of him etc, just like all you know of the stove. Yet you do no engage the stove in conversation, but you do Jon. When you hear "Sarah, I want my dinner now. And don't forget the tomato sauce" :-) you turn to, you advert, you attend to Jon, because you understand what you sense of him to be sentient, and whatever you sense of anything else in your apartment not to be sentient in that way. > Keep asking.... this is the most useful kind of discussion imo, because > it's directly relevant to the understanding at this moment. > Thank you for the encouragement. > thanks for your interest, Herman. > My interest is in what people do, not in what they say they believe :-) I sincerely hope that is not a harsh thing to say. Cheers Herman #102454 From: han tun Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:06 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (70) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 8. Characteristics of Ruupas (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ---------------------------------- Ruupas can be classified as produced ruupas, nipphanna ruupas, and unproduced ruupas, anipphanna ruupas. The sabhaava ruupas are also called "produced", whereas the asabhaava ruupas are also called "unproduced" [Note 3]. The two kinds of intimation produced by citta, the three qualities of lightness, plasticity and wieldiness produced by citta, temperature or nutrition and space which delimits the groups of ruupa produced by the four factors and therefore originating from these four factors, are still called "unproduced", anipphanna, because they themselves are not ruupas with their own distinct nature, they are not "concrete matter". The "produced ruupas" which each have their own characteristic are, as the "Visuddhimagga" (XVIII, 13) explains, "suitable for comprehension", that is, they are objects of which right understanding can be developed. For example, visible object or hardness have characteristics that can be objects of awareness when they appear, and they can be realized by pa~n~naa as they are, as non-self. The "unproduced ruupas" are "not suitable for comprehension" since they are qualities of ruupa such as changeability or the ruupa that delimits groups of ruupas. If one does not know this distinction, one may be led to wrong practice. [Note 3] For details see Visuddhimagga XIV, 73, 77. ******** Question 1. Can the rpas of lightness, plasticity and wieldiness be objects of awareness? ----------------------------- This is the End of Chapter 8. Characteristics of Ruupas. Chapter 9. Groups of Ruupas will start from the next post. with metta, Han #102455 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: chat with Scott scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Regarding: S: "In future, there is no need to tell me that you are not going to answer...I only post this because sometimes I come across this strange belief at dsg that certain activities are less natural than others, and others more natural." Scott: Thank you. This would all be better discussed with Phil. Sincerely, Scott. #102456 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah's Faulty Personal Opinions abhidhammika Dear Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Ken O, Alex, Freawaru, Howard, Robert K, Phil, Jon, Sarah, How are you? Uncle U Han Tun wrote: Here is the translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "Then the naked ascetic Kassapa received the going forth under the Blessed One, and he received the higher ordination. And soon, not long after his higher ordination, dwelling alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute, the Venerable Kassapa, by realizing it for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life entered and dwelt in that unsurpassed goal of the holy life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from the household life into homelessness. He directly knew: "Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being." And the Venerable Kassapa became one of the arahants. -------------------- Uncle U Han Tun also remarked: 'Aciruupasampanno' = acira + upasampanna. I find that 'acira' and 'naciraseva' are translated together as 'soon, not long after'. Yes, Uncle, thank for for your kind Dhamma Daana. At last, we witnessed how Bhikkhu Bodhi correctly translated the important Pali phrase `naciraseva' as `soon' in this Acelakassapa Suttam. At the same time, we now know that Bhikkhu Bodhi left the Pali phrase `naciraseva' un-translated by mistake in his translations of Dutiya Migajaala Suttam and Bhikkhu Suttam. We now know clearly that the last paragraphs of those Suttams under discussion first contain intensive practice (pa.tipatti) and then Arahattaphala, the fruit of Arahatta magga awakening (pa.tiveda). And, those Suttams also taught clearly us that only intensive practice of samatha and vipassanaa being undertaken in bodily seclusion (kaayaviveka) can lead to awakening without delay (naciraseva). I am also pleased to inform you that I have upgraded my formal practices of samatha and vipassanaa to the intensive level this year, 2009. Intensive practice is a natural progress from the formal practice. Without a formal practice first, there is no intensive practice. Formal undertaking consistently makes practices of samatha and viassanaa a second nature in us and prepares us to smoothly and naturally embark on the path of intensive undertaking of those methods. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #102457 From: han tun Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah's Faulty Personal Opinions hantun1 Dear Suan, Suan: At last, we witnessed how Bhikkhu Bodhi correctly translated the important Pali phrase `naciraseva' as `soon' in this Acelakassapa Suttam. At the same time, we now know that Bhikkhu Bodhi left the Pali phrase `naciraseva' un-translated by mistake in his translations of Dutiya Migajaala Suttam and Bhikkhu Suttam. We now know clearly that the last paragraphs of those Suttams under discussion first contain intensive practice (pa.tipatti) and then Arahattaphala, the fruit of Arahatta magga awakening (pa.tiveda). And, those Suttams also taught clearly us that only intensive practice of samatha and vipassanaa being undertaken in bodily seclusion (kaayaviveka) can lead to awakening without delay (naciraseva) . I am also pleased to inform you that I have upgraded my formal practices of samatha and vipassanaa to the intensive level this year, 2009. Intensive practice is a natural progress from the formal practice. Without a formal practice first, there is no intensive practice. Formal undertaking consistently makes practices of samatha and viassanaa a second nature in us and prepares us to smoothly and naturally embark on the path of intensive undertaking of those methods. -------------------- Han: Thank you very much for your very comprehensive explanation. I wish you every success in your intensive practice. with metta and respect, Uncle Han Tun #102458 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:38 pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying egberdina Hello Lukas, 2009/11/19 Lukas > Dear Sarah, I always enjoy so much what you or Nina are writing. Or when > reading Buddha words directly. > Some people get as much pleasure from reading Playboy. So, are you clinging, or letting go? Cheers Herman #102459 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] and another thing about the INVASION: upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Colette) - In a message dated 11/19/2009 1:17:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi colette, 2009/11/18 colette > Hi Howard, > > I luv it: you've given the position that NO EVIDENCE IS PRESENT THAT > ESTABLISHES THE EXISTANCE OF ANOTHER MIND OR OTHER MINDS. The question then > comes: does another mind other than your own mind, exist? Brace yourself. I am not talking about you personally, the same goes for anyone, but there is no evidence that your mind exists either! There simply is no privileged access to anything called a mind, any mind. Not by anyone, regardless of their resume. What there is, well, mostly it's just thinking. ----------------------------------------------- Other than as imagined by A. I. researchers, has there ever existed thinking without consciousness? I'm not aware of any. So, to say that mind is mostly thinking doesn't make nothing of mind/mentality. I share your reluctance, however, for using expressions such as 'a mind' and 'minds'. What we call "mind" is nothing more or less than a complex of mental operations and qualities, both cognitive and affective, most centrally the presence of object-content that is called "consciousness" . Actually, I think that 'mind' is used throughout the suttas primarily in two distinct ways (on different occasions), one as I indicated in the last sentence, and the other as thinking/conceptualizing. There is also his "official" definition of mind (or nama) as the complex of operations consisting of feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention. (This presentation omits consciousness, replacing it by contact. More critically it misses emotions and a host of mental qualities.) ---------------------------------------------------- Cheers Herman ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102460 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality notes I've made to myself truth_aerator Hi Herman, Howard, all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > There is room in what you say above to think that you allow for >sights, sounds etc which are unknown. Is that correct, ie do you >allow for that? Yes. Matter can exist independent of the mind. This is basic Buddha's teaching and it is also taught in Abh. > > > > > We can also say that awareness is the presence of 6 sense phenomena. > > > > Generally I like to translate vinnana as awareness. > > > > I'm just wondering what the awareness adds that isn't already in the > phenomena? It is presence of phenomena, it is real time reflexion of knowing of the fact of knowing. > > > What or where is the bridge that connects matter to mind? > > Cheers > > > Herman Do you understand how tough the above question in Western Philosophy is? Anyhow the experiential answer is that there is a connection. Will "I will move my right hand right now" and move it. Experientially there is volition and then physical movement. There is also physical and vocal intimation. I am not sure if "matter-only" teaching can explain how physical & vocal intimation can happen. What I mean is that physical signs of one person can affect the behavior of another. Ex: If John shows a middle finger to Jack and calls him bad names, Jack may get into a fight. If John waves his hand to Jack and greets him, they may get into a friendly conversation at Starbucks or something. I don't think that it is easy or even possible to remove "meaning" , "mind", etc. With metta, Alex #102461 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:11 pm Subject: Inducing samatha truth_aerator Dear Jon, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (102279) > > Can you clarify the exact differences between: > > > > "a formal kind of samatha practice". > > > > and > > > > > > "higher stages of samatha are developed by a person who is >already quite accomplished in that development". > > I'd describe the differnce in this way: > >1)- In formal samatha practice, the idea is to induce kusala to >arise where there is otherwise no (or only occasional) kusala. > >2)- In the case of the person who is already accomplished in >samatha, kusala arises frequently by virtue of having been developed >and having become a habit. > > The problem with the former, as I see it, is that kusala cannot be induced in the manner expected. If that is so, then what is being developed must be akusala of one form or another. > > I think similar considerations would apply as regards deliberate action done with the aim of inducing any form of kusala to arise. > > Jon > "In the case of the person who is already accomplished in samatha, kusala arises frequently by virtue of having been developed and having become a habit." Can you please explain how person "accomplishes samatha and it having been developed and having become a habit"? In the first paragrpah you say that kusala cannot arise when there isn't (or is rare) kusala. In the 2nd paragrpah you describe that a person who is accomplished in samatha has kusala arise due to the fact of samatha being a habit. Note: Samatha is kusala. Meditation doesn't directly produce kusala. It naturally grows in fertile soil of meditation when the "weeds" are cleaned. With metta, Alex #102462 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying truth_aerator Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hello Lukas, > > 2009/11/19 Lukas > > > Dear Sarah, I always enjoy so much what you or Nina are writing. Or when > > reading Buddha words directly. > > > > Some people get as much pleasure from reading Playboy. So, are you clinging, > or letting go? > > Cheers > > Herman Lust as a feeling, is not all that pleasurable. Happiness of dropping the hindrances is much happier. Furthermore, not all pleasure now leads to future happiness. Not all discomfort now leads to future discomfort. With metta, Alex #102463 From: Lukas Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:39 pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying szmicio Hi Herman, >L: Dear Sarah, I always enjoy so much what you or Nina are writing. Or when > reading Buddha words directly. > >H: Some people get as much pleasure from reading Playboy. So, are you clinging, >or letting go? L: I dont know. I think it's the matter of panna of samatha that it knows wheather it's kusala citta or not. For sure I cling all the time, and let things only few moments in my life. I can cling to what heard. I can take it for understanding when it's not. It can be anything, all kind of dream possible ;> But this is dukkha. We cannot eradict it. This is conditioned. Best wishes Lukas #102464 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality notes I've made to myself upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Herman) - In a message dated 11/19/2009 11:05:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Herman, Howard, all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > There is room in what you say above to think that you allow for >sights, sounds etc which are unknown. Is that correct, ie do you >allow for that? Yes. Matter can exist independent of the mind. This is basic Buddha's teaching and it is also taught in Abh. =============================== From MN 9 there is the following: "And what is mentality-materiality, what is the origin of mentality-materiality, what is the cessation of mentality-materiality, what is the way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality? Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality. The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called materiality. So this mentality and this materiality are what is called mentality-materiality. With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality. The way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration." Look at the two sentences "With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality." This leaves no room for material form that is independent of mind, for without consciousness, according to the foregoing, there is no materiality. With metta, Howard Nothing Underlying Phenomena /In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself./ (From the Bahiya Sutta) #102465 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality notes I've made to myself truth_aerator Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Herman) - > > In a message dated 11/19/2009 11:05:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Hi Herman, Howard, all, > > >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > There is room in what you say above to think that you allow for >sights, > sounds etc which are unknown. Is that correct, ie do you >allow for that? > > Yes. Matter can exist independent of the mind. This is basic Buddha's > teaching and it is also taught in Abh. > =============================== > From MN 9 there is the following: > > > "And what is mentality-materiality, what is the origin of > mentality-materiality, what is the cessation of mentality-materiality, what is the way > leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality? Feeling, perception, > volition, contact and attention " these are called mentality. The four great > elements and the material form derived from the four great elements " these are > called materiality. So this mentality and this materiality are what is > called mentality-materiality. With the arising of consciousness there is the > arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is > the cessation of mentality-materiality. The way leading to the cessation > of mentality-materiality is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right > view... right concentration." > > Look at the two sentences "With the arising of consciousness there is > the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness > there is the cessation of mentality-materiality." This leaves no room for > material form that is independent of mind, for without consciousness, > according to the foregoing, there is no materiality. > > With metta, > Howard WHen it comes to DO, we need to remember DN15 sutta. Namarupa as the embroyo requires consciousness for birth to occur. ""'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?" "No, lord." "If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?" "No, lord." "If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?" "No, lord." "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html I like the ==== "If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?" "No, lord." "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."" === It doesn't say that matter would disappear. It simply states that sentient organism requires consciousness. Also whenever a meditator achieves cessaption of perception and feeling, his/her material body doesn't cease! Furthermore in other DO suttas namarupa -> consciousness. With metta, Alex #102466 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Dear pt. Op 19-nov-2009, om 3:01 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > I'm a bit confused here - if the "object", as we determined earlier > is kind of like a seen panorama (no specific shapes/objects, nor > colors singled out yet), then it seems that pleasantness/ > unpleasantness has nothing to do with the "object" that's seen. I > mean, it seems as if the pleasantness/unpleasantness has to do with > the seeing citta itself, not the the object of that citta, because > the object in every instance seems to be just a panorama without > any distinguishing features to make it different from the panorama > seen in some other moment. Or am I misunderstanding something? ------- N: Instead of panorama I would say: what is visible, what appears through the eyesense or visible object. The word panorama may evoke all kinds of associations and thoughts. True, we cannot make out whether what is seen is pleasant or unpleasant, how could we? The moment is so short. But true is that the vipaakacitta seeing-consciousness must be either kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. As I said: when seeing is kusala vipaakacitta its object is pleasant, and when it is akusala vipaakacitta its object is unpleasant, it could not be otherwise. But we cannot pinpoint anything at the moment of seeing. Seeing just sees. The accompanying feeling is always indifferent. Nina. #102467 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself nilovg Dear pt, Op 19-nov-2009, om 3:34 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > What is your understanding why a medium is not cited as a condition > for hearing? As mentioned, sound as a natural phenomenon cannot > exist without a medium like air, water, etc. > > The only explanation I can think of is if by "sound" as "object" - > the same thing is meant in abhidhamma as you explained me the case > of the visual object. I.e. it is not some sound source out there > like a dog-bark, or car-horn, that would require air as a medium so > that sound waves can be transferred from the sound-source to the > ear-drum, but, it is just whatever is present at the cochlea (inner > ear), or passada rupa in the ear, so again kind of like an "audible > panorama" without any objects singled out yet. In that case it > might not be necessary to mention a medium (air, water, even body > itself) as a crucial condition I guess, even though without it > there would be no sound to impinge on the ear in the first place. ------ N: I do not understand the word medium. Also thinking of inner ear etc. , medical terms, soundwaves, I am not good at it at all. So, I am afraid I do not know what to answer. Nina. #102468 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and pt) - In a message dated 11/19/2009 2:07:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear pt. Op 19-nov-2009, om 3:01 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > I'm a bit confused here - if the "object", as we determined earlier > is kind of like a seen panorama (no specific shapes/objects, nor > colors singled out yet), then it seems that pleasantness/ > unpleasantness has nothing to do with the "object" that's seen. I > mean, it seems as if the pleasantness/unpleasantness has to do with > the seeing citta itself, not the the object of that citta, because > the object in every instance seems to be just a panorama without > any distinguishing features to make it different from the panorama > seen in some other moment. Or am I misunderstanding something? ------- N: Instead of panorama I would say: what is visible, what appears through the eyesense or visible object. The word panorama may evoke all kinds of associations and thoughts. True, we cannot make out whether what is seen is pleasant or unpleasant, how could we? The moment is so short. But true is that the vipaakacitta seeing-consciousness must be either kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. As I said: when seeing is kusala vipaakacitta its object is pleasant, and when it is akusala vipaakacitta its object is unpleasant, it could not be otherwise. But we cannot pinpoint anything at the moment of seeing. Seeing just sees. The accompanying feeling is always indifferent. --------------------------------------------------- Nina, it appears that you are contradicting yourself here. On the one hand you say that 1) "true is that the vipaakacitta seeing-consciousness must be either kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. As I said: when seeing is kusala vipaakacitta its object is pleasant, and when it is akusala vipaakacitta its object is unpleasant, it could not be otherwise." On the other hand, you say that 2) "Seeing just sees. The accompanying feeling is always indifferent." Indifferent feeling is neither pleasant nor unpleasant! I opt for statement 2), Nina, and not 1). But one cannot logically opt for both. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina. ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102469 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah's Faulty Personal Opinions kenhowardau Dear Han, Thanks for your reply. You concluded with: "However, when you said [The Dhamma and the four foundations of mindfulness are all about understanding conditioned realities. They are not about "trying to do something."] I have nothing more to say." It's not always easy for me to know what people mean. Perhaps you are saying that you have already given your opinion on "trying to do something." Or perhaps you mean you would rather not discuss the matter. If it's the latter then, by all means, ignore the following; I won't be offended. --------- Han: > There are many instructions or guidelines in the sutta. --------- I'm not sure what you mean by "instructions or guidelines" in this context. I would say the Satipatthana Sutta described the arising of satipatthana in various circumstances. Would you agree with that? ---------------- <. . .> Han: > Sayadaw U Nyanissara said that to be able to achieve the goal within seven days, one would have to carry out intensive practice. How intensive? Sayadaw said, "Take one meal a day. Sleep only three hours a night. Leave one hour for washing and cleaning the body. Then, practice for 20 hours a day. If you do that, you might achieve the goal in seven days." It may not be easy to practice as Sayadaw said, but Sayadaw said like that to highlight the importance of intensive practice. ----------------- When you say "one" would have to carry out intensive practice, to whom are you referring (or to whom is Sayadaw U Nyanissara referring) ? Some ordinary people, who are ignorant of the Dhamma, will assume the Sayadaw is referring to them, won't they? Some of them will even go so far as to practice intensively for seven days. Just what their practice will be is impossible to say; it will vary in every circumstance. But one thing for sure is, it won't be satipatthana! -------------- <. . .> Han: > I did not use the word "formal". The "practice" or "intensive practice" that I am referring to is the "practice" as advised by the Buddha in Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Sutta. --------------- Yes, that is the one we are all referring to. But our understanding of it varies enormously. Here at DSG there are, broadly speaking, two ways of understanding the Dhamma. Some of us see satipatthana various conditioned dhammas arising when the conditions for their arising are present. Some others of us see satipatthana as as something we can "do" (a formal practice). Thank you for the synopsis of the Mahaa Satipa.t.thana sutta. I won't comment on it now, except to say there these "two ways" of understanding it, aren't there? Ken H H: > To start with, in the outline or synopsis (uddesa) of Mahaa Satipa.t.thana sutta, there are the following sentences. (1) Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m. (There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in and of itself, ardent, alert, and mindful, putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world.) [To repeat for vedanaa, citta and dhamma.] H: > Thus there are a lot of physical and mental activities involved, and a lot of things to do. > However, when you said [The Dhamma and the four foundations of mindfulness are all about understanding conditioned realities. They are not about "trying to do something."] I have nothing more to say. > > #102470 From: han tun Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah's Faulty Personal Opinions hantun1 Dear Ken, Your understanding of the subject matter and my understanding are very much different. As an example, please see the following exchange of ideas: -------------------- Han: I did not use the word "formal". The "practice" or "intensive practice" that I am referring to is the "practice" as advised by the Buddha in Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Sutta. KenH: Yes, that is the one we are all referring to. But our understanding of it varies enormously. Here at DSG there are, broadly speaking, two ways of understanding the Dhamma. Some of us see satipatthana various conditioned dhammas arising when the conditions for their arising are present. Some others of us see satipatthana as as something we can "do" (a formal practice). Thank you for the synopsis of the Mahaa Satipa.t.thana sutta. I won't comment on it now, except to say there these "two ways" of understanding it, aren't there? -------------------- Han: You are right, Ken. There are "two ways" (or even more than two ways) of understanding the Dhamma, and I belong to [Some others of us who see satipatthana as something we can "do" (a formal practice)]. As such, whatever I say, you will not change your stance; and whatever you say, I will not change my stance. It will only be tiring for both of us. That was why I said I have nothing more to say. But I always respect others' opinion although I may not agree. Respectfully, Han #102471 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah's Faulty Personal Opinions kenhowardau Hi Han, Thanks for clearing that up. I now know which side of the fence you are on. :-) I usually don't correct my typing errors, but on this occasion I'd like restore the missing "as" so my crucial sentence reads, "Some of us see satipatthana as various conditioned dhammas arising when the conditions for their arising are present." How else could we see it? :-) Ken H #102472 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:11 am Subject: To Suan: Sammappadhaana hantun1 Dear Suan, I am very glad to know that you have upgraded your formal practices of samatha and vipassanaa to the intensive level this year, 2009. With my physical limitations, I cannot do like you are doing, and I sincerely admire you for your efforts. Currently, I am reading The Bodhipakkhiya Dipani by Ledi Sayadaw, translated from the Burmese by U Sein Nyo Tun, ICS. [The word ICS brings me back the pre-War days in Burma. The Indian Civil Service, popularly known by its acronym ICS, originated as the elite civil service of the Indian Government under British colonial rule in India, but the title was also conferred on some outstanding Burmese administrators in those days. It was because Burma was a part of Indian Empire at that time. With the proclamation of the Government of Burma Act in 1935, Burma attained the Home Rule status and separated from India. Thereafter, we had the BCS, the Burma Civil Service.] In the book by Ledi Sayadaw the definition of Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma was given as follows: -------------------- I, The Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma I shall now concisely show the thirty-seven bodhipakkhiya dhamma, which are dhamma which should be attempted with energy and determination by those persons wishing to practise samatha (calm) and vipassana (insight), and thus make the rare opportunity of rebirth as a human being within the present Buddha Sasana worthwhile. Briefly, the bodhipakkhiya dhamma consist of seven kinds, namely: 1. satipa.t.thaana 2. sammappadhaana 3. iddhipaada 4. indriya 5. bala 6. bhojjhanga 7. magganga. According to the definition 'bodiyaa pakkhe bhavaati bodhipakkhiyaa', these dhamma are called bodhipakkhiya because they form part of, or they are associates of, magga-~naa.na (knowledge of the Holy Paths). They are dhamma that are the pada.t.thaana (proximate cause), sa.mbhaara (requisite ingredients), and upanissaya (basis or sufficing condition) of magga-~naa.na (knowledge of the Holy Paths). -------------------- Han: When I came to Chapter III, I read the following: -------------------- III, The Four Sammappadhaana The definition of sammappadhaana is: Bhusa.m dhahati vahatiiti padhaana.m, Sammadeva padhaana.m sammappadhaana.m. (Can carry out exceedingly: hence it is called padhaana. Dhamma that can carry out properly and exceedingly: hence they are called sammappadhaana.) Effort that has not in it any element of unwillingness is called sammappadhaana. It is also called aataapa-viriya. It is effort that can evoke the taking of great pains physically and mentally. It is effort that possesses four characteristics. These four characteristics are: Kaama.m taco ca .nhaaru ca, Atthi ca avasissatu. Sarire upasussatu ma.msalohita.m, Ya.m ta.m purisathaamenaa purisaviriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m, Na ta.m apaapunitvaa viriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati. (Let only my skin, and sinews, and bones remain, and let my flesh and blood in the body dry up, I shall not permit the course of my effort to stop until I win that which may be won by human ability, human effort and human exertion.) These characteristics may be summed up as follows: 1. let the skin, remain 2. let the sinews remain 3. let the bones remain 4. let the flesh and blood dry up. It is effort that calls forth the determination 'If the end is attainable by human effort, I shall not rest or relax until it is attained, until the end is grasped and reached.' -------------------- Han: It is all about *doing* or practicing the Bodhipakkhiya Dhammas with very great determination and commitment. Although I cannot do it myself, I sincerely admire you who are doing it. with metta and respect, Uncle Han Tun #102473 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:34 am Subject: DUTIYA DASABALASUTTAM Re: To Suan: Sammappadhaana abhidhammika Dear Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Ken O, Alex, Freawaru, Howard, Robert K, Phil, Jon, Sarah, How are you? Uncle U Han Tun quoted the following from Ledi Sayadaw's Bodhipakkhiyadiipanii: "Effort that has not in it any element of unwillingness is called sammappadhaana. It is also called aataapa-viriya. It is effort that can evoke the taking of great pains physically and mentally. It is effort that possesses four characteristics. These four characteristics are: Kaama.m taco ca .nhaaru ca, Atthi ca avasissatu. Sarire upasussatu ma.msalohita.m, Ya.m ta.m purisathaamenaa purisaviriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m, Na ta.m apaapunitvaa viriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati." Thank you, Uncle, for reminding me of those most inspiring words of the Buddha advising us to push ourselves to the limits of our bodies and minds. Those words can be found in this beautiful Suttam, among others, that follows below. 2. DUTIYADASABALASUTTAM 22. Saavatthiyam viharati pe "dasabalasamannaagato, bhikkhave, tathaagato catuuhi ca vesaarajjehi samannaagato aasabham .thaanam pa.tijaanaati, parisaasu siihanaadam nadati, brahmacakkam pavattetti `iti ruupam iti ruupassa samudayo iti ruupassa atthangamo, iti vedanaa iti vedanaaya samudayo iti vedanaaya atthangamo, iti saaa iti saaaya samudayo iti saaaya atthangamo, iti sankhaaraa iti sankhaaraanam samudayo iti sankhaaraanam atthangamo, iti viaa.nam iti viaa.nassa samudayo iti viaa.nassa atthangamo. Iti imasmim sati idam hoti, imassuppaadaa idam uppajjati; imasmim asati idam na hoti imassa nirodhaa idam nirujjhati. Yadidam avijjaapaccayaa sankhaaraa; sankhaarapaccayaa viaa.nam pe evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti. Avijjaaya tveva asesaviraaganirodhaa sankhaaranirodho; sankhaaranirodhaa viaa.nanirodho pe evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti'". "Evam svaakkhaato, bhikkhave, mayaa dhammo uttaano viva.to pakaasito chinnapilotiko. Evam svaakkhaate kho, bhikkhave, mayaa dhamme uttaane viva.te pakaasite chinnapilotike alameva saddhaapabbajitena kulaputtena viiriyam aarabhitum `kaamam taco ca nhaaru ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu, sariire upasussatu, mamsalohitam. Yam tam purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabbam, na tam apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaanam bhavissatii'"ti. "Dukkham, bhikkhave, kusiito viharati voki.n.no paapakehi akusalehi dhammehi, mahantaca sadattham parihaapeti. aaraddhaviiriyo ca kho, bhikkhave, sukham viharati pavivitto paapakehi akusalehi dhammehi, mahantaca sadattham paripuureti. Na, bhikkhave, hiinena aggassa patti hoti. Aggena ca kho, bhikkhave, aggassa patti hoti. Ma.n.dapeyyamidam, bhikkhave, brahmacariyam, satthaa sammukhiibhuuto. Tasmaatiha, bhikkhave, viiriyam aarabhatha appattassa pattiyaa, anadhigatassa adhigamaaya, asacchikatassa sacchikiriyaaya. `Evam no ayam amhaakam pabbajjaa avajhaa bhavissati saphalaa sa-udrayaa. Yesaca mayam paribhujaama ciivara-pi.n.dapaatasenaasana gilaanappaccayabhesajjaparikkhaaram tesam te kaaraa amhesu mahapphalaa bhavissanti mahaanisamsaa'ti evahi vo, bhikkhave, sikkhitabbam. Attattham vaa hi, bhikkhave, sampassamaanena alameva appamaadena sampaadetum; parattham vaa hi, bhikkhave, sampassamaanena alameva appamaadena sampaadetum; ubhayattham vaa hi, bhikkhave, sampassamaanena alameva appamaadena sampaadetun"ti. Dutiyam. Section 22, Dutiyadasabalasuttam, Nidaanasamyuttam, Nidaana Vaggo, Samyuttanikaayo. Being inspired by the Buddha's life and beautiful inspiring Suttams like the above one, I have been undertaking formal samatha and vipassanaa practices during the past 30 years or so. I first started to undertake intensive samatha and vipassanaa during 1995 leading to discovering unusual experiences and abilities. But, just when I decided to heighten the intensity of the practice further, I unexpectedly failed to maintain physical seclusion (kaayaviveka, eko, vuupaka.t.tho). When physical seclusion was compromised, the formal intensive practice lost intensity. As a result, I did not discover the unusual further experiences and abilities. However, as the intensive practice I undertook had given me some unusual experiences and abilities not available to common human beings, I made sure that, in addition to the regular easier formal practice, I reenacted or renewed the intensive practice, at least once a month, to not lose the previously achieved level of intensity. This year, 2009, I have upgraded the formal practice of samatha and vipassanaa to the intensive level, and am pleased to inform you that it has been making steady progress. Now, Uncle, when you have spare time, please kindly type out Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation or someone else's translation of the above beautiful Suttam as another Dhamma Daana. This Dutiyadasabalasuttam may inspire some paravaadii and vita.n.davaadi like KSujin and her students who behave like armchair tourists, getting nowhere. Thanking you in advance. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #102474 From: Herman Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/11/17 sarah abbott > Hi Dieter & all, > > .... > S: I see no value in the conventional meaning of being a 'loner', eschewing > company, living apart. It may all be out of attachment or a rejection of > society. I just see meaning in the development of wholesome qualities such > as panna, metta, dana, samatha and so on. > Can I ask you the following, because I think there is room for what you said to be misunderstood? Are you implying that the development of the wholesome qualities you mention does not lead to a rejection of society, it's rites and rituals, it's values? Cheers Herman #102475 From: Herman Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangha politics in Thailand egberdina Hello Ken O 2009/11/18 Ken O > Dear Herman > > > >But the point of our discussion is that there is disagreement within the > >sangha, and there is no Buddha to rule on the matter. So where does that > >leave us? Personally, I do not think that passivity in the face of harm is > a > >sign of loving kindness, or an expression of wisdom. > > KO: It is not being passive. I respect others views and traditions. I > follow humbly the Thervada tradition. These rules are set by Buddha, > deviation from such rules are not allow even for minor ones. Is it correct that the Elders, whose path you follow, did not actually know which were the minor training rules which could be abolished according to the Buddha? If that is the case, do you think it is wise to unquestioningly follow the rules as interpreted and determined by these Elders? Cheers Herman #102476 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:03 am Subject: [dsg] DUTIYA DASABALASUTTAM Re: To Suan: Sammappadhaana hantun1 Dear Suan, Suan: Now, Uncle, when you have spare time, please kindly type out Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation or someone else's translation of the above beautiful Suttam as another Dhamma Daana. Han: Please find below the translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi. I also love this sutta very much. -------------------- Saavatthiyam viharati [pe] "dasabalasamannaaga to, bhikkhave, tathaagato catuuhi ca vesaarajjehi samannaagato aasabham .thaanam pa.tijaanaati, parisaasu siihanaadam nadati, brahmacakkam pavattetti `iti ruupam iti ruupassa samudayo iti ruupassa atthangamo, iti vedanaa iti vedanaaya samudayo iti vedanaaya atthangamo, iti saññaa iti saññaaya samudayo iti saññaaya atthangamo, iti sankhaaraa iti sankhaaraanam samudayo iti sankhaaraanam atthangamo, iti viññaa.nam iti viññaa.nassa samudayo iti viññaa.nassa atthangamo. Iti imasmim sati idam hoti, imassuppaadaa idam uppajjati; imasmim asati idam na hoti imassa nirodhaa idam nirujjhati. Yadidam avijjaapaccayaa sankhaaraa; sankhaarapaccayaa viññaa.nam [pe] evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti. Avijjaaya tveva asesaviraaganirodha a sankhaaranirodho; sankhaaranirodhaa viññaa.nanirodho [pe] evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti'". At Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, possessing the ten powers and the four grounds of self-confidence, the Tathaagata claims the place of the chief bull of the herd, roars his lion's roar in the assemblies, and sets rolling the Brahma-wheel thus: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its passing away; such is feeling, such its origin, such its passing away; such is perception, such its origin, such its passing away; such are volitional formations, such their origin, such their passing away; such is consciousness, such its origin, such its passing away. Thus when this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases. That is, with ignorance as condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness [pe] Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness [pe] Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.' -------------------- "Evam svaakkhaato, bhikkhave, mayaa dhammo uttaano viva.to pakaasito chinnapilotiko. Evam svaakkhaate kho, bhikkhave, mayaa dhamme uttaane viva.te pakaasite chinnapilotike alameva saddhaapabbajitena kulaputtena viiriyam aarabhitum `kaamam taco ca nhaaru ‚ ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu, sariire upasussatu, mamsalohitam. Yam tam purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabbam, na tam apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaanam bhavissatii' "ti. "Bhikkhus, the Dhamma has thus been well expounded by me, elucidated, disclosed, revealed, stripped of patchwork. When, bhikkhus, the Dhamma has thus been well expounded by me, elucidated, disclosed, revealed, stripped of patchwork, this is enough for a clansman who has gone forth out of faith to arouse his energy thus: 'Willingly, let only my skin, sinews, and bones remain, and let the flesh and blood dry up in my body, but I will not relax my energy so long as I have not attained what can be attained by manly strength, by manly energy, by manly exertion.' -------------------- "Dukkham, bhikkhave, kusiito viharati voki.n.no paapakehi akusalehi dhammehi, mahantañca sadattham parihaapeti. aaraddhaviiriyo ca kho, bhikkhave, sukham viharati pavivitto paapakehi akusalehi dhammehi, mahantañca sadattham paripuureti. Na, bhikkhave, hiinena aggassa patti hoti. Aggena ca kho, bhikkhave, aggassa patti hoti. Ma.n.dapeyyamidam, bhikkhave, brahmacariyam, satthaa sammukhiibhuuto. Tasmaatiha, bhikkhave, viiriyam aarabhatha appattassa pattiyaa, anadhigatassa adhigamaaya, asacchikatassa sacchikiriyaaya. `Evam no ayam amhaakam pabbajjaa avañjhaa bhavissati saphalaa sa-udrayaa. Yesañca ‚ mayam paribhuñjaama ciivara-pi.n. dapaatasenaasana gilaanappaccayabhes ajjaparikkhaaram tesam te kaaraa amhesu mahapphalaa bhavissanti mahaanisamsaa' ti evañhi vo, bhikkhave, sikkhitabbam. "Bhikkhus, the lazy person dwells in suffering, soiled by evil unwholesome states, and great is the personal good that he neglects. But the energetic person dwells happily, secluded from evil unwholesome states, and great is the personal good that he achieves. It is not by the inferior that the supreme is attained; rather, it is by the supreme that the supreme is attained. Bhikkhus, this holy life is a beverage of cream; the Teacher is present. Therefore, bhikkhus, arouse your energy for the attainment of the as-yet-unattained, for the achievement of the as-yet-unachieved, for the realization of the as-yet-unrealized, [with the thought]: 'In such a way this going forth of ours will not be barren, but fruitful and fertile; and when we use the robes, alms-food, lodgings, and medicinal requisites [offered to us by others], these services they provide for us will be of great fruit and benefit to them.' Thus, bhikkhus, should you train yourselves. -------------------- Attattham vaa hi, bhikkhave, sampassamaanena alameva appamaadena sampaadetum; parattham vaa hi, bhikkhave, sampassamaanena alameva appamaadena sampaadetum; ubhayattham vaa hi, bhikkhave, sampassamaanena alameva appamaadena sampaadetun" ti. Dutiyam. "Considering your own good, bhikkhus, it is enough to strive for the goal with diligence; considering the good of others, it is enough to strive for the goal with diligence; considering the good of both, it is enough to strive for the goal with diligence." -------------------- Han; Thank you very much once again for posting this very beautiful sutta. It has a lot of points that I should bear in mind always. with metta and respect, Uncle Han Tun #102477 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- On Fri, 20/11/09, Herman wrote: > S: I see no value in the conventional meaning of being a 'loner', eschewing > company, living apart. It may all be out of attachment or a rejection of > society. I just see meaning in the development of wholesome qualities such > as panna, metta, dana, samatha and so on. > >Can I ask you the following, because I think there is room for what you said to be misunderstood? Are you implying that the development of the wholesome qualities you mention does not lead to a rejection of society, it's rites and rituals, it's values? ... S: I'm implying that the development of wholesome qualities, as mentioned above leads to the decrease of attachment and in the case of satipatthana, to the decrease and eventually the eradication of ignorance and wrong view. If one thinks that the development of awareness, understanding, metta and other wholesome qualities leads to a rejection of society, in the sense above out of aversion towards being amongst people, then it's wrong. It always comes back to the citta at any time, including this moment. Most of our rejections are with akusala cittas, wouldn't you say? Metta Sarah ======== #102478 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Relpy to Ken O /with a new subject heading sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Wed, 18/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: >Meditation is developing wisdom (panna bhavana) and letting go of disturbances, ... S: Can there be 'Meditation', as you define it here, now? If not, why not? If one is thinking of another place and time as being more suitable, isn't one then disturbed? If one is shopping, cleaning, working or socialising and thinks that this is an unsuitable time for 'meditation', isn't one just being disturbed without any development of wisdom at such a time? ... >abiding in void sunnatavihari. At first temporary, then permanently. ... S: What are the conditions for abiding in 'sunnatavihari'? If there is no development of understanding of realities now as anatta, beyond anyone's control, can there ever be any abiding in sunnatavihari? Metta Sarah ======== #102479 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:27 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 12. nilovg Dear friends, It is beneficial to learn more details about the many different types of citta: kusala citta, akusala citta and citta which is neither kusala nor akusala. When there is ignorance of akusala and kusala, the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala cannot be seen. We long for pleasant objects and we dislike unpleasant objects. Through the Buddhist teachings one learns that whatever arises is dependent on conditions. Sometimes there are conditions for the experience of pleasant objects and sometimes for the experience of unpleasant objects, nobody can exert control over the cittas which arise. Pleasant objects cannot last and therefore clinging to them will only lead to frustration and sadness. Time and again there is the arising of attachment, aversion and ignorance on account of objects experienced through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. There is enslavement to objects which arise and then fall away immediately. When the foolishness of such infatuation is realized, there are conditions to develop understanding of the realities of life. One will understand that there are countless akusala cittas arising on account of the objects experienced through the senses, akusala cittas which were not noticed before. When the characteristics of kusala and akusala are seen more clearly, there are conditions for the development of the roots of non-attachment, non-aversion and wisdom. These are the roots of kusala cittas which motivate the abstaining from unwholesome actions and the performing of wholesome deeds and speech. ***** Nina. #102480 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Tue, 17/11/09, upasaka@... wrote: >My main point was to wonder why there is not something similar for contact and feeling, some likening of contact and feeling to two mutually-supporting sheaves and not just the unidirectional conditionality of contact conditioning feeling. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- S: Under Mutuality Condition (a~n~naama~n~na paccaya) in U Narada's "Guide to Conditional Relations", p31*. "Definition: the condition where a conditioning state relates by causing the associated states, the conditioned states, to arise simultaneously with it and which are all mutually dependent is known as mutuality condition. "Analogy: a tripod has three legs because, when it is set up, it will stand on account of the interdependence of these legs. But if one of them is broken, the remaining two legs cannot make it stand. Similarly, in this condition, 1) the mental aggregates [S: always including contact and feeling which arise with every moment of consciousness] are mutually related, 2) the great primaries of the same material group are mutually related and 3) the mental aggregates at rebirth in the five-aggregate planes and the heart-base are mutually related." Metta Sarah * If you look on your book-shelf, I believe you'll find this text:-). ========== #102481 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 19-nov-2009, om 20:47 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > it appears that you are contradicting yourself here. On the one > hand you say that 1) "true is that the vipaakacitta seeing- > consciousness > must be either kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. As I said: when > seeing is > kusala vipaakacitta its object is pleasant, and when it is akusala > vipaakacitta its object is > unpleasant, it could not be otherwise." On the other hand, you say > that 2) > "Seeing just sees. The accompanying feeling is always indifferent." > Indifferent feeling is neither pleasant nor unpleasant! I opt for > statement 2), > Nina, and not 1). But one cannot logically opt for both. -------- N: Seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting are vipaakacittas and these are invariably accompanied by indifferent feeling, no matter the object they experience is desirable or undesirable. Body-consciousness is accompanied by pleasant (bodily) feeling or by unpleasant (bodily) feeling, because the impact of the object on bodysense is more violent. Bodily feeling is feeling that is vipaaka, it accompanies vipaakacitta. Perhaps you find it difficult that seeing that sees a pleasant object is accompanied by indifferent feeling. Shortly after the vipaakacitta has fallen away kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise and these may be accompanied by happy feeling (kusala or akusala), unhappy feeling (akusala) or indifferent feeling (kusala or akusala). Is there any problem here? Nina. #102482 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:37 am Subject: Re:Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying sarahprocter... Hi Staisha, --- On Wed, 18/11/09, Staisha Perry wrote: >Hi sarah, i hope all is well. Glad to see you were paying attention to paramattha, instead of living in the moment of concept pannati. Delusion can appear so quick, and prevents one from being aware of the reality. ... S: Yes, delusion arises very quickly, always popping in:-) Like now, occasional moments of wise reflection and awareness and many, many moments of thinking about pannatti without any awareness....All anatta and all gone:-) No point dwelling on what's past. Thanks for your feedback and also thanks for replying and asking your qus here on-list to us. Metta Sarah ======= #102483 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:47 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (71) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 9.Groups of Ruupas Questions and comments are welcome. ---------------------------------- Groups of Ruupas Ruupas do not arise singly, they always arise collectively, in groups (kalaapas). Where there is solidity, the Element of Earth, there have to be the other three Great Elements, and also colour, flavour, odour and nutrition. These are the eight inseparable ruupas. A group of ruupas consisting of only the eight inseparable ruupas is called a "pure octad". Pure octads of the body are produced by citta, temperature or nutrition, and pure octads outside the body are produced only by temperature. The groups of ruupas produced by kamma have to consist of at least nine ruupas: the eight inseparable ruupas and life faculty (jvitindriya), and such a group is called a "nonad". Eyesense, earsense, smelling-sense, tasting-sense, bodysense, heart-base, femininity and masculinity are other kinds of ruupa produced by kamma and each of these ruupas arises together with the eight inseparable ruupas and life faculty, thus, they arise in groups of ten ruupas, decads. All ruupas of such a decad are produced by kamma. Thus, one speaks of eye-decad, ear-decad, nose-decad, tongue-decad, body-decad, heart-base-decad, femininity-decad and masculinity-decad. As to the body-decad, this arises and falls away at any place of the body where there can be sensitivity. Kamma produces groups of ruupas from the arising moment of the rebirth-consciousness (pa.tisandhi-citta). In the case of human beings, kamma produces at that moment the three decads of bodysense, of sex (femininity or masculinity) and of heart-base, and it produces these decads throughout our life. The eye-decad and the decads of ear, nose and tongue are not produced at the first moment of life but later on. ------------------------------ Chapter 9.Groups of Ruupas to be continued. with metta, Han #102484 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:44 am Subject: Re: Formal instructions in VsM jonoabb Hi Icaro (102452) > > "Profitable" here is the old-fashioned way of translating "kusala", >I'd > >guess. > > I think so. But I must say that I dont agree with it. > Reading Vism today, it seems to me that anamoli was keeping on mind a notion of > "Kusala" very close to the old Avesta/Zoroastrian notion of "Ashem Vohu" - "Righteousness Good", "Profitable", and so on. I will try P. Meung or Mas translations - I am not so fluent on Pali yet to try a direct reading on the Pali originals! > =============== There is no single English word that fits perfectly. The current Bh. Bodhi choice, "wholesome", also has other connotations. > =============== > It is good to be back at this noble company of clever minds indeed! > =============== It's good to have you back! Anything of interest to report on events during your absence? Jon #102485 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:50 am Subject: Re: Inducing samatha jonoabb Hi Alex (102461) > "In the case of the person who is already accomplished in samatha, kusala arises frequently by virtue of having been developed and having become a habit." > > Can you please explain how person "accomplishes samatha and it having been developed and having become a habit"? > ============== Any moment of kusala that is accompanied by understanding of the level that knows the difference between kusala and akusala is samatha. So the difference between a moments of metta that are just metta and moments of metta that are samatha bhavana is the accompanying (or immediately following) understanding of those moments as kusala. Is that how you understand it too? > =============== > In the first paragrpah you say that kusala cannot arise when there isn't (or is rare) kusala. In the 2nd paragrpah you describe that a person who is accomplished in samatha has kusala arise due to the fact of samatha being a habit. > =============== I don't say that kusala *cannot* arise, but that it cannot be induced to arise by following a particular method or practice. (I think you can appreciate the difference.) > =============== > Note: Samatha is kusala. > =============== Yes, of course. But samatha is not just following a certain practice or set of instructions. It must be kusala in order to be samatha ;-)) > =============== > Meditation doesn't directly produce kusala. It naturally grows in fertile soil of meditation when the "weeds" are cleaned. > =============== I'm not quite with you here. Are you saying the actual meditation time is not necessarily all kusala, but it paves the way for kusala later? Or something else? Jon #102486 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: chat with Scott sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, --- On Wed, 18/11/09, philofillet wrote: > >P: Hmm. Interesting. I was thinking more literally how to say"progression towards harmlessness. " > ... > S: Isn't that exactly from bhaavanaa or mental development is? A "progression towards harmlessness" . The one without any defilements is entirely harmless... >Ph: Yes, quite, I agree. But you guys always want to jump to considering the deeper stages of development, which is of course very interesting but leads to, in my opinion, neglgect of/disineterst in the very mundane progress that happens in less intriguing, less discussion-worthy ways, ways that are usually treated a touch disrespectfully by you guys when you say things like "well, other religions say that too." You see, there is a degree of harmlessness and related virtue that is not bhavana, because it is not accompanied by the degree of panna that is, if I'm not mistaken, necessarily implied by "bhavana." .... S: But weren't you discussing "a *progression* towards harmlessness"? Without the development of any panna, how can there be any progression? How will it ever be known what is kusala, what is akusala, what is sila, what is dana, what is metta and so on? Yes, whenever any kind of virtue or other kusala arises, at that moment the citta is "harmless" and this is important to appreciate so that there is the development of "harmlessness". Without any panna, we are bound to have all sorts of strange ideas about what virtue is, don't you think? It's panna which learns to see the danger in the smallest faults so that the gross faults don't arise. It's not 'avoid such faults and then develop panna'. ... >There is a very interesting sutta in Anguttara Nikaya that gets at a lot of the things I talk about, in a way. I will paraphrase, but it starts with the daughter of a man who has died complaining to the Buddha (or one of the great disciples, I forget) because she has heard that he has attained status of a once returner in his rebirth rather than an arahant, whereas another man, who was not as chaste in terms of celibacy became an arahant. THe sutta concludes that those who have are advanced in wisdom but not in virtue outrank (if that's the right word) those who are well established in virtue but who have not developed deep understanding. That is a rough description, and I might have the details wrong, but what I don't have wrong is the fact that there is a way of virtue pointed at that is not tied-up with the way of understanding. Let me go get my book. It is AN VI, 44. It concludes with "if Isidatta had possessed the same degree of virtue that Puraana had, Puraanaa acould not have equalled Isidatta's status. And if Puraanaa had possed the same wisdom that Isidatta had, Isidaatta could not have equalled Puraana's status. THere two persons, however, were dificient in one respect." ... S: yes, I've always liked that sutta a lot: "Wherefore, Ananda, be no measurer of persons; measure not the measure of persons. Verily, Ananda, he digs a pit for himself who measures the measure of persons. I alone, Ananda, can measure their measure - or one like me." ... >Well, that won't help much. If anyone wants to look at that sutta closer, it might be interesting. But the point is that while virture with understanding is superior to virtue without a great amount of understanding, there is in the Buddha's teaching a tradition of virtue without deep understanding, and that is my way, because trying to force deep understanding on to oneself is not wise. But it's what A.S does, sorry. .... S: Different accumulations, different strengths and weaknesses for sure. I know you always think this about 'forcing' deep understanding, but nothing can ever be 'forced'. If someone doesn't have the interest, they don't listen. ... >Ph: Yes, here it is. http://buddhism. lib.ntu.edu. tw/BDLM/en/ lesson/pali/ lesson_pali3. htm It's really great. I have downloaded the verse pronunciation clips onto my i-pod and aspire to be able to put it on shuffle mode and still understand everything I hear. I don't think that this has anything to do with "bhavana." It is just to inspire me and motivate me and make me feel confident that the DHamma is central enough in my life that I can understand Dhammapada in Pali. And some of the verses are amazingly funky the way the syllables rattle off. I like the sound of this Pali a lot, it must have be from a past life whe I was a Pali scholar at the Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia. ... S: :-) Thx for sharing it. .... >Ph: I don't know anything about Freud, but I do think you guys get comfort out of thinking about paramattha Dhammas. I'm just going to post about that in another thread. ... S: yes, reflecting on and beginning to understand the real 'worlds', the real 'society', the real 'home' at this moment is incredibly sobering, if not comforting. It's like momentarily giving up one's addiction to all the crazy ideas we're used to having about world, society and home and living peacefully alone at such times. Metta Sarah ======== #102487 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:33 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (315, 7,8 ) and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, Five Lower Fetters and Five Higher Fetters. sutta 7, Walshe: DN 33.2.1(7) 'Five lower fetters: personality-belief (sakkaaya- di.t.thi), doubt, attachment to rite and ritual (siilabbata- paraamaasa), sensuality, ill-will. (Pa~nca orambhaagiyaani sa.myojanaani - sakkaayadi.t.thi, vicikicchaa, siilabbataparaamaaso, kaamacchando, byaapaado.) sutta 8: Walshe: DN 33.2.1(8) 'Five higher fetters: craving for the world of form (ruupa-raaga), craving for the formless world (aruupa-raaga), conceit (maana), restlessness (uddhaca), ignorance. [iii 235] (Pa~nca uddhambhaagiyaani sa.myojanaani - ruuparaago, aruuparaago, maano, uddhacca.m, avijjaa.) ------- N: In the co it is stated that the lower fetters are internal (ajjhatta) and the higher fetters are external (bahiddha). For a further explanation, we read in the Puggala Pa~n~natti, by Twos, no 10 (Human Types, p. 33): The co to the Puggala Pa~n~natti uses the simile of a calf that is tied down within a stable or tied so that it can go outside. The inside bond is like the internal fetters of the sensuous worlds (kaama loka) where one is more restricted. The outside bond is like the external fetters of the world of ruupa-brahmins and aruupa brahmins. The sotaapanna and the sakadaagaami are freed from three lower fetters of personality-belief (sakkaaya-di.t.thi), doubt, attachment to rite and ritual (siilabbata-paraamaasa), but they are still bound by sensuality and ill-will. When they are still in the sensuous planes they are like the calf that is tied inside the stable and sleeps inside (antobaddhaa antosayitaa). When they are reborn in the world of ruupa-brahmins and aruupa-brahmins they are like the calf that is tied inside the stable but can sleep outside (antobaddhaa bahisayitaa). The anaagaami who dwells in the sensuous plane is like the calf that is tied outside but sleeps inside the stable (bahibaddhaa antosayitaa). The anaagaami who is reborn in the world of ruupa- brahmins and aruupa-brahmins are like the calf that is tied outside and sleeps outside (bahibaddhaa bahisayitaa). This simile shows different degrees of confinement and freedom. It reminds us how difficult it is to be freed from the fetters. The co to the Sangiitisutta speaks very shortly about being tied down within or without and sleeping within or without. Only the arahat who has eradicated the aasavas is not bound at all. The arahat is free from the five higher fetters of craving for the world of form (ruupa-raaga), craving for the formless world (aruupa- raaga), conceit (maana), restlessness (uddhaca), ignorance. N: We read in the Dispeller of Delusion (II, p. 252) that sense desire existence (kaamabhava) is internal (ajjhatta) and fine material and immaterial existence is external (bahiddhaa). It explains that deaths and rebirths are many in sense-desire existence and the longing, aspiration and wishes are many. Beings dwell for a long time in the fine material and immaterial existences and thus, deaths and rebirths are few in those planes and wishes are fewer. N: A lifespan is much longer in fine material and immaterial existences and thus there are fewer deaths and rebirths, fewer wishes bound up with rebirth. The Dispeller explains that the bond in the sense-desire existence called internal, is the internal fetter, the ajjhatta.m sa.myojana.m. The bond in the fine material and immaterial existences called external is the external fetter, bahiddhaa sa.myojana.m. We are reminded of the danger of being in the cycle, of the many kinds of longings, aspirations and wishes bound up with rebirth. We have to face endless disappointments, frustrations, worries and sufferings. Most of our problems are caused by clinging to the wrong view of self. The sotaapanna has eradicated all forms of wrong view and wrong practice, but he still has to cope with sensuous clinging and aversion. Through the development of understanding of all realities that appear the following stages of enlightenment can be reached and at the stage of the arahat complete freedom has been reached. ****** Co: Sa.myojanaaniiti bandhanaani. Tehi pana baddhesu puggalesu ruupaaruupabhave nibbattaa sotaapannasakadaagaamino antobaddhaa bahisayitaa naama. Tesa~nhi kaamabhave bandhana.m. Kaamabhave anaagaamino bahibaddhaa antosayitaa naama. Tesa~nhi ruupaaruupabhave bandhana.m. Kaamabhave sotaapannasakadaagaamino antobaddhaa antosayitaa naama. Ruupaaruupabhave anaagaamino bahibaddhaa bahisayitaa naama. Khii.naasavo sabbattha abandhano. ****** Nina. #102488 From: "Icaro" Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:39 pm Subject: Re: Formal instructions in VsM icarofranca Hi Jon! > > =============== > > There is no single English word that fits perfectly. The current >Bh.Bodhi choice, "wholesome", also has other connotations. Kusala Dhamma is only a blink of an eye...so fast that at the next second, its gone. A pretty lasagna, a delicious cup of coffee..and at next, nothing. > It's good to have you back! Anything of interest to report on events >during your absence? Oh, nothing special! At Brazil, Public Service access is by examinations - I had got a good score at the INMETROs, and my MSc on Engineering raised up my chances a lot...now, I am just waiting my assignment. However, it demanded too a lot of study. Only just at these last days Ive reenacted my Vism and - mainly - Abhidhamma Sangaha readings. Mettaya, Icaro #102489 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/20/2009 5:33:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, --- On Tue, 17/11/09, upasaka@... wrote: >My main point was to wonder why there is not something similar for contact and feeling, some likening of contact and feeling to two mutually-supporting sheaves and not just the unidirectional conditionality of contact conditioning feeling. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- S: Under Mutuality Condition (a~n~naama~n~na paccaya) in U Narada's "Guide to Conditional Relations", p31*. "Definition: the condition where a conditioning state relates by causing the associated states, the conditioned states, to arise simultaneously with it and which are all mutually dependent is known as mutuality condition. "Analogy: a tripod has three legs because, when it is set up, it will stand on account of the interdependence of these legs. But if one of them is broken, the remaining two legs cannot make it stand. Similarly, in this condition, 1) the mental aggregates [S: always including contact and feeling which arise with every moment of consciousness] are mutually related, 2) the great primaries of the same material group are mutually related and 3) the mental aggregates at rebirth in the five-aggregate planes and the heart-base are mutually related." Metta Sarah * If you look on your book-shelf, I believe you'll find this text:-). ==================================== No doubt. However, as usual, I am looking for a sutta, because suttas are what I consider to be, with great certainty and in the overwhelming number of cases, the word of the Buddha. The simultaneous mutual conditioning of vi~n~nana and namarupa is laid out explicitly in the Sheaves of Reeds Sutta, and I am looking for something comparable with regard to phassa and vedana. My own (quite possibly flawed) observation is that phassa *precedes* and conditions feeling, and I am seeking a contrary statement by the Buddha that asserts their simultaneity. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102490 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/20/2009 5:38:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 19-nov-2009, om 20:47 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > it appears that you are contradicting yourself here. On the one > hand you say that 1) "true is that the vipaakacitta seeing- > consciousness > must be either kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. As I said: when > seeing is > kusala vipaakacitta its object is pleasant, and when it is akusala > vipaakacitta its object is > unpleasant, it could not be otherwise." On the other hand, you say > that 2) > "Seeing just sees. The accompanying feeling is always indifferent." > Indifferent feeling is neither pleasant nor unpleasant! I opt for > statement 2), > Nina, and not 1). But one cannot logically opt for both. -------- N: Seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting are vipaakacittas and these are invariably accompanied by indifferent feeling, no matter the object they experience is desirable or undesirable. ----------------------------------------------------- I accept that, though with some hesitancy with regard to smell and taste, for certain very strong smells and tastes seem to *immediately* elicit unpleasant bodily feeling, a physical reaction that precedes even mental reaction. In any case, with regard to seeing, this certainly harmonizes with my number 2), which I do "opt for." But that contradicts your assertion 1) that asserts that seeing consciousness is always either wholesome or unwholesome (not neutral), and when unwholesome it must have an unpleasant object. Your statement that I numbered 1) unequivocally implies that the objects of some states of visual consciousness, namely those that are akusala, are unpleasant, and you contradict that in the statement I numbered 2) as well as above in saying that "Seeing ... [is] invariably accompanied by indifferent feeling ..." ----------------------------------------------------- Body-consciousness is accompanied by pleasant (bodily) feeling or by unpleasant (bodily) feeling, because the impact of the object on bodysense is more violent. Bodily feeling is feeling that is vipaaka, it accompanies vipaakacitta. Perhaps you find it difficult that seeing that sees a pleasant object is accompanied by indifferent feeling. ------------------------------------------------------- I haven't a clue what you can mean by a "pleasant object." What is pleasantness other than "of the nature to be felt as pleasant"? What is felt indifferently (or neutrally) is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. Inherent pleasantness independent of feeling is a nonsensical notion so far as I can tell. Pleasant, unpleasant, and indifferent are the three modes of feeling, and nothing else. ------------------------------------------------------ Shortly after the vipaakacitta has fallen away kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise and these may be accompanied by happy feeling (kusala or akusala), unhappy feeling (akusala) or indifferent feeling (kusala or akusala). Is there any problem here? ------------------------------------------------ Please see what I wrote above. What is indifferent felt is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. If sights are always neutral in feel, then they are never pleasant or unpleasant. Subsequent mental-consciousness objects concocted by thought proliferation may be pleasant or unpleasant, but not the prior visible object itself! ---------------------------------------------- Nina. =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102491 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangha politics in Thailand ashkenn2k Dear Herman because the Elders even though are Arahants do not possessed the same Omniscient knowledge of the Buddha. Buddha did mention in one sutta about some minor rules could be changed but since they did not ask what are the minor rules could be changed and also Buddha did not further elaborate on his statements, they accepted Buddha's unquestioningly. This the type of teaching I will follow. Cheers Ken O #102492 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. ashkenn2k Dear pt At times I personally felt that pleasant and unpleasant object is not an adequate word to describe kusala vipaka or aksuala vipaka. Take for example, dung to human is an akusala vipaka. For the for five sense other than the body senses, they are derived materiality and are not strong therefore feeling is indifference. Bodily sense is different because it is comprised of the four elements, it is strong, there are bodily pain and pleasure feelings. This is the Abhidhamma explanation Cheers Ken O #102493 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (315, 7,8 ) and commentary. ashkenn2k Dear Nina this clarifies those I am always in my mind, why craving for existence is only eradicated by Arahant and not anaagaami Cheers Ken O #102495 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:18 pm Subject: Re: Inducing samatha truth_aerator Hi Jon, Sarah, all, > dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (102461) > > "In the case of the person who is already accomplished in >samatha, kusala arises frequently by virtue of having been developed >and having become a habit." > > > > Can you please explain how person "accomplishes samatha and it >having been developed and having become a habit"? > > ============== > > Any moment of kusala that is accompanied by understanding of the >level that knows the difference between kusala and akusala is >samatha. Yes I am aware that according to Dhs. every wholesome citta moment with wisdom has (#53 & #54) samatha & vipassana yoked together. I am just not betting that that moment can qualify as samatha & vipassana fully developing and leading to maggaphala. What about remaining in wholesome Meditation for hours (as often said in the suttas), not a nanosecond? > > So the difference between a moments of metta that are just metta >and moments of metta that are samatha bhavana is the accompanying >(or immediately following) understanding of those moments as kusala. > > Is that how you understand it too? > > > =============== > > In the first paragrpah you say that kusala cannot arise when there isn't (or is rare) kusala. In the 2nd paragrpah you describe that a person who is accomplished in samatha has kusala arise due to the fact of samatha being a habit. > > =============== > > I don't say that kusala *cannot* arise, but that it cannot be >induced to arise by following a particular method or practice. What about studying Dhamma and yoniso manasikara? >(I think you can appreciate the difference.) > > > =============== > > Note: Samatha is kusala. > > =============== > > Yes, of course. But samatha is not just following a certain >practice or set of instructions. Actually it is. Letting go of avijja, sankhara, tanha, upadana ... >It must be kusala in order to be samatha ;-)) > > > =============== > > Meditation doesn't directly produce kusala. It naturally grows in fertile soil of meditation when the "weeds" are cleaned. > > =============== > > I'm not quite with you here. Are you saying the actual meditation time is not necessarily all kusala, but it paves the way for kusala later? Or something else? > > Jon > I agree that: 1) Everything arises due to a specific cause. 2) Everything is conditioned and cannot be simply willed to happen. 3) Ignorance is the basis for unwholesome states 4) Wisdom, wise reflection its is basis for wholesome states 5) With wisdom, 4 right efforts (and other things) happen. 6) "Person" doesn't "do" meditation or insight. It is just a series of momentary mind-moments arises and passing away. 7) Everything can be reduced to khandha/ayatana/dhatu namarupa arising and ceasing. What I don't agree with is the notion that meditating, effort, forest-dwelling, etc doesn't conventionally happen. It does happen as a conditioned namarupa process, all fully conditioned of course. With metta, Alex #102496 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangha politics in Thailand truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hello Ken O > > 2009/11/18 Ken O > > > Dear Herman > > > > > > >But the point of our discussion is that there is disagreement within the > > >sangha, and there is no Buddha to rule on the matter. So where does that > > >leave us? Personally, I do not think that passivity in the face of harm is > > a > > >sign of loving kindness, or an expression of wisdom. > > > > KO: It is not being passive. I respect others views and traditions. I > > follow humbly the Thervada tradition. These rules are set by Buddha, > > deviation from such rules are not allow even for minor ones. > > > Is it correct that the Elders, whose path you follow, did not actually know > which were the minor training rules which could be abolished according to > the Buddha? If that is the case, do you think it is wise to unquestioningly > follow the rules as interpreted and determined by these Elders? > > > Cheers > > Herman Hello Herman, I am sure that they knew what the major and what the minor rules are. There was a bit more than that involved in the decision to keep the rules. If they were to remove many of the rules, non-Buddhists would use that to attack the Sangha that "The Buddha has just passed away and you are already backsliding and removing his rules". The most important rules are 4 Parajika & 13 Sanghadisesa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patimokkha The rules were also set for a good reason. Without a good reason to abolish them, the Arahant monks decided to keep them all. Furthermore, many of the minor rules dealt with customs of that society, so removing them may not have been appropriate at *that* time. With metta, Alex #102497 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known ashkenn2k Dear Herman and Howard To me, it is not an easy subject to explain. I thank Nina who gives a good sutta reference on external rupa MN28 (Bhikkhu Bodhi translation) <<12. Now there comes a time when external water element is distrubed. It carries away villages, towns....>>, <<17. Now there comes a time when the external fire element is distrubed. It burns up villages, towns>> Characteristics Take for example, I burnt in my fingers. It is bodily citta that experiences the burning of the internal fire element. The characteristic of fire element which I use burning here as example is the same whether it is the internal experience of the body citta or the external fire element where it burns up villages etc. Abhidhamma reference to the same characteristics pg 417 Expositor, Derived Material Qualities << Although sounds have been distinguished [in the Text] as, eg of a big drum, they have not been differentiated as regards salient characteristics, etc. As to these, all sounds have the characteristics of striking the ear, the functions-and-property of being the object of auditory cognition, the manifestation is being the field or object of auditory cognition.>> [in the Text] as in the text it describe various types of sound cause by muscial instruments, 'noise of people', sound of the blowing wind etc. Internal and External Rupas Then we go down to para 27 of the MN 28 Sutta << ...... But when internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range and there is the corresponding [conscious] engagment, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness.>> We must distinguish two ways in looking at external fire element (external rupa). One which is independent from our range of experiences which is burning of the villages while the other is explain above it must come into the range of our experiences which then becomes an internal rupa (the object). Coexistent between matter (rupa) and immateriality. This is base on Abhidhamma explanations, Expositor pg 92, Analysis of Terms <<...... For in material and immaterial sates which are produced together, matter is coexistent with non-matter but is not associated or conjoined with it. Likewise non-matter with matter. and matter with matter. But non-matter is always accompanied by, co-existent, associated, and conjoined with non matter.....>> >> But during the javana process it could be different between two persons, >> some people may like hot while others may like cold. There is the >> difference but characteritistic are the same for the rupa. >> > >I will await to read your reasonings behind these assertions. KO: This is base on Abhidhamma explanation, our lobha and dosa over an object only arise in the javana process and not in the arisen of the five sense door cittas. This is because the sense citta is weak during its presence. There is no energy cetasika during its arisen. Cheers Ken O #102498 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Herman) - In a message dated 11/20/2009 12:15:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Herman and Howard To me, it is not an easy subject to explain. I thank Nina who gives a good sutta reference on external rupa MN28 (Bhikkhu Bodhi translation) <<12. Now there comes a time when external water element is distrubed. It carries away villages, towns....>>, <<17. Now there comes a time when the external fire element is distrubed. It burns up villages, towns>> Characteristics Take for example, I burnt in my fingers. It is bodily citta that experiences the burning of the internal fire element. The characteristic of fire element which I use burning here as example is the same whether it is the internal experience of the body citta or the external fire element where it burns up villages etc. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: This internal/external dichotomy is entirely conventional, the former referring to what is experienced as occurring inside the body, and the latter referring to what is experienced as outside the body. My point was that is has nothing to do with the nama/rupa dichotomy. ---------------------------------------------- Abhidhamma reference to the same characteristics pg 417 Expositor, Derived Material Qualities << Although sounds have been distinguished [in the Text] as, eg of a big drum, they have not been differentiated as regards salient characteristics, etc. As to these, all sounds have the characteristics of striking the ear, the functions-and-property of being the object of auditory cognition, the manifestation is being the field or object of auditory cognition.>> [in the Text] as in the text it describe various types of sound cause by muscial instruments, 'noise of people', sound of the blowing wind etc. Internal and External Rupas Then we go down to para 27 of the MN 28 Sutta << ...... But when internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range and there is the corresponding [conscious] engagment, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness.>> We must distinguish two ways in looking at external fire element (external rupa). One which is independent from our range of experiences which is burning of the villages while the other is explain above it must come into the range of our experiences which then becomes an internal rupa (the object). Coexistent between matter (rupa) and immateriality. This is base on Abhidhamma explanations, Expositor pg 92, Analysis of Terms <<...... For in material and immaterial sates which are produced together, matter is coexistent with non-matter but is not associated or conjoined with it. Likewise non-matter with matter. and matter with matter. But non-matter is always accompanied by, co-existent, associated, and conjoined with non matter.....>> >> But during the javana process it could be different between two persons, >> some people may like hot while others may like cold. There is the >> difference but characteritistic are the same for the rupa. >> > >I will await to read your reasonings behind these assertions. KO: This is base on Abhidhamma explanation, our lobha and dosa over an object only arise in the javana process and not in the arisen of the five sense door cittas. This is because the sense citta is weak during its presence. There is no energy cetasika during its arisen. Cheers Ken O ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102499 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: chat with Scott nilovg Dear Sarah, I want to highlight your words below. Op 20-nov-2009, om 11:55 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > yes, reflecting on and beginning to understand the real 'worlds', > the real 'society', the real 'home' at this moment is incredibly > sobering, if not comforting. It's like momentarily giving up one's > addiction to all the crazy ideas we're used to having about world, > society and home and living peacefully alone at such times. ------- N: I read this a few times, and it is good for reflection and application. Those crazy ideas. When hearing ugly words the Dhamma is sobering. There is not that person who critizes. We live alone with nama and rupa. Understanding can develop now. Nina. #102500 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal instructions in VsM nilovg Dear Icaro, Op 20-nov-2009, om 13:39 heeft Icaro het volgende geschreven: > Only just at these last days Ive reenacted my Vism and - mainly - > Abhidhamma Sangaha readings. ------ N: And what from the Abhidhamma Sangaho you found particularly helpful? ----- Nina. #102501 From: "Christine" Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:33 pm Subject: Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja christine_fo... Hello all, I think Bhikkhu Bodhi's Revised Statement bears posting in full: Nov. 6, 2009 Dear Ven. Sujato, Over the past few days I have obtained more information about the background to the bhikkhuni ordination in Perth than I had available to me last week, when I wrote my letter of congratulations. This more recent information has given me a fuller and clearer picture of the implications of the ordination. While I did expect that Ajahn Brahm and you would be ostracized by the wider WPP Sangha, at the time I wrote I did not realize that relations between monastic communities and among the individual monks that comprise this tradition were as tight and communally determined as they actually are. In the light of my recent insights into the way this tradition functions, I have been compelled to revise the opinion I expressed in the letter I sent you last week and which I approved being posted on your website. I would appreciate it if you would also post this letter on the same website to round out my assessment of the ordination. I first want to make it absolutely clear that in principle I fully support bhikkhuni ordination. I regard the women who have taken this ordination, whether from lineages based in the so-called "Mahayana countries" or from the recently emergent Theravada bhikkhunis, as legitimately ordained bhikkhunis, fully entitled to participate in the Sangha acts prescribed for them in the Vinaya. I also believe that a full-scale revival of the Bhikkhuni Sangha and its unqualified acceptance by the Bhikkhu Sangha is an imperative for the Theravda tradition in our time. At the same time, however, in view of the intimate communal structure of the WPP Sangha and the close bonds between the abbots of the monasteries belonging to this tradition, I have been regretfully forced to the conclusion that Ajahn Brahm and yourself were at fault for proceeding in the hasty and secretive way in which you conducted the ordination. In my opinion, in view of the fact that Ajahn Brahm had been an important and much respected member of this community, he should have discussed the issue openly and fully at a meeting with all its prominent representatives, and patiently attempted to prevail upon them with the art of persuasion. You might object that he (and yourself) have tried doing so for years without success, but I am not sure that there has not been substantial progress in this area. Don't forget that several of the European abbots and siladharas attended the conference at Hamburg, which in itself marked a significant step forward. Further, and especially, a World Abbots' Meeting was scheduled to be held at Bodhinyana Monastery in December, with the bhikkhuni issue given a prominent place on the agenda. You would only have had to wait patiently for another six weeks to bring the issue to a head. I believe that, even if you both had felt that the urgency of bhikkhuni ordination had reached a "tipping point," the meeting in December would have served as the ideal venue to press for a final decision. Even if you were pessimistic that the meeting would have had fruitful results, it still could have served as a final testing ground. If, at that meeting, the international abbots had approved bhikkhuni ordination, at least for Western Australia, you would have been at liberty to arrange the ordination in harmony with the wider WPP Sangha (at least the international branches) and thus hurt feelings would have been minimized. If, on the other hand, the proposal to conduct bhikkhuni ordination was flatly rejected, Ajahn Brahm could have made a reasonable choice. He could either have decided to withdraw from the WPP network and arrange the ordination as a fully autonomous elder monk; or else, while still belonging to the WPP Sangha, he could have conducted the ordination in defiance of the prevailing decision and risked excommunication. In such an event, at least, the decision to proceed with bhikkhuni ordination would have been made openly and after a final attempt at persuasion had failed. Six more weeks of waiting, and the issue could have been decided by a simple up or down vote. As it is, by conducting the ordination in a secretive way, without giving sufficient heed to the opinions and feelings of others in his tradition, he has caused divisions, belligerence, and pain which, with more circumspection, might have been avoided or at least reduced. The opinion I express here is in full accord with the qualifications that I made in the full version of my Hamburg presentation, which I will cite as an appendix to this letter. Please be assured that, while I express these reservations about the way Ajahn Brahm proceeded in this affair, I still lend him my moral support just as much as I support the revival of bhikkhuni ordination in the Theravda tradition. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the letter quoted above, Bhikkhu Bodhi says The opinion I express here is in full accord with the qualifications that I made in the full version of my Hamburg presentation, which I will cite as an appendix to this letter. Here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's statement from the Hamburg conference of 2007, instigated by HH Dalai Lama, about how he regards Bhikkhuni ordination. The Revival of Bhikkhun Ordination in the Theravda Tradition ~ Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi EXCERPT: Conclusion The disappearance of the Theravda Bhikkhun Sangha has presented us with a situation not explicitly addressed in the Vinaya and thus one for which there is no unambiguous remedy. As I see it, the Vinaya cannot be read in any fixed manner as either unconditionally permitting or forbidding a revival of the Bhikkhun Sangha. It yields these conclusions only as a result of interpretation, and interpretation often reflects the attitudes of the interpreters and the framework of assumptions within which they operate as much as it does the words of the text they are interpreting. In my opinion, in dealing with this issue, the question that should be foremost in our minds is this: "What would the Buddha want his elder bhikkhu-disciples to do in such a situation, now, in the twenty-first century?" Would he want us to apply the regulations governing ordination in a way that excludes women from the fully ordained renunciant life, so that we present to the world a religion in which men alone can lead the life of full renunciation? Or would he instead want us to apply the regulations of the Vinaya in a way that is kind, generous, and accommodating, thereby offering the world a religion that truly embodies principles of justice and non-discrimination? The answers to these questions are not immediately given by any text or tradition, but I don't think we are left entirely to subjective opinion either. From the texts we can see how, in making major decisions, the Buddha displayed both compassion and disciplinary rigor; we can also see how, in defining the behavioral standards of his Sangha, he took account of the social and cultural expectations of his contemporaries. In working out a solution to our own problem, therefore, we have these two guidelines to follow. One is to be true to the spirit of the Dhamma--true to both the letter and the spirit, but above all to the spirit. The other is to be responsive to the social, intellectual, and cultural horizons of humanity in this particular period of history in which we live, this age in which we forge our own future destinies and the future destiny of Buddhism. Looked at in this light, the revival of a Theravda Bhikkhun Sangha can be seen as an intrinsic good that conforms to the innermost spirit of the Dhamma, helping to bring to fulfillment the Buddha's own mission of opening "the doors to the Deathless" to all humankind, to women as well as to men. At the same time, the existence of a Bhikkhun Sangha can function as an instrumental good. It will allow women to make a meaningful contribution to Buddhism in many of the ways that monks do--as preachers, scholars, meditation teachers, educators, social advisors, and ritual leaders--and perhaps in certain ways that will be unique to female renunciants, for example, as counselors and guides to women lay followers. A Bhikkhun Sangha will also win for Buddhism the respect of high-minded people in the world, who regard the absence of gender discrimination as the mark of a truly worthy religion in harmony with the noble trends of present-day civilization. http://www.buddhistfellowship.org/cms/i ... ation.html metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---Life is only as long as an outbreath .. if you don't breathe in again--- #102502 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling nilovg Hi Howard, Op 20-nov-2009, om 14:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > My own (quite possibly flawed) observation is that phassa *precedes* > and conditions feeling, and I am seeking a contrary statement by > the Buddha > that asserts their simultaneity. ------- N: How could phassa that conditions feeling precede it? It contacts the object and condiitons feeling that arises together, then it falls away and next moment another contact and another feeling. How could contact linger on? Nina. #102503 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 20-nov-2009, om 15:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > In any case, with regard to seeing, this certainly harmonizes with > my number 2), which I do "opt for." But that contradicts your > assertion 1) > that asserts that seeing consciousness is always either wholesome or > unwholesome (not neutral), and when unwholesome it must have an > unpleasant > object. --------- N: Let me clarify one point. Seeing-consciousness cannot be wolesome nor unwholesome. I said: kusala VIPAAKA or akusala VIPAAKA. Vipaaka is result of kamma, it is passive, it is not active like kusala citta or akusala citta. There are four jaatis or classes of citta: kusala akusala, vipaaka, kiriya. Kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka are just one jaati, the jaati that is vipaaka. Perhaps now it may be clearer to follow what I said. > > > N: Body-consciousness is accompanied by pleasant (bodily) feeling > or by > unpleasant (bodily) feeling, because the impact of the object on > bodysense is more violent. Bodily feeling is feeling that is vipaaka, > it accompanies vipaakacitta. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > I haven't a clue what you can mean by a "pleasant object." ------ N: Temperature may be just right (not too hot, not too cold) and then a pleasant object is experienced through the body-consciousness. --------- > What is > pleasantness other than "of the nature to be felt as pleasant"? > What is felt > indifferently (or neutrally) is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. > Inherent > pleasantness independent of feeling is a nonsensical notion so far > as I can > tell. Pleasant, unpleasant, and indifferent are the three modes of > feeling, > and nothing else. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: Yes, three kinds of feeling. But citta and the accompanying > feeling experience an object that may be pleasant or unpleasant. > Feeling experiences the same object as citta but in its own way, it > feels. > > ------------------------------------------------ > H: Please see what I wrote above. What is indifferent felt is neither > pleasant nor unpleasant. If sights are always neutral in feel, then > they are > never pleasant or unpleasant. Subsequent mental-consciousness objects > concocted by thought proliferation may be pleasant or unpleasant, > but not the > prior visible object itself! > ------- N: We cannot say: sights are neutral in feel. We have to differentiate object, citta and feeling. Main thing is you find it difficult to accept that kamma conditions the vipaakacitta to experience a pleasant object or an unpleasant object. It is never neutral. Nina. #102505 From: "Icaro" Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Formal instructions in VsM icarofranca Hi Nina! > ------ > N: And what from the Abhidhamma Sangaho you found particularly >helpful? > ----- After leaving my A.S. volume aside on shelf too much time, Ive reenacted my readings, keeping on mind that all chapters ( or "compendium" in the singular) are definite sets of categories - consciousness, mental factors,cognitive processes and so on. At Chapter six I was marvelled with an very sound idea: comprised consciousness as a a cause of material phenomena grows up from greed-rooting, hate-rooting, delusion rooting,and so on, to the mind-door adverting and...presto!... the smiling-producing Chitta! If you consider all these steps as a states of mindfullness, so the mundane mind can reach a very complex platform of Paa, after the mind-door adverting and before the supramundane ones: the "similing chitta"! The mundane reality really real in all its dubious glory can be assimilated by an not so muddy country herb-eater mind... I am smiling until now! You can consider this as a silly remark, Nina...but I liked the idea! Mettaya, caro #102506 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/20/2009 2:39:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 20-nov-2009, om 14:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > My own (quite possibly flawed) observation is that phassa *precedes* > and conditions feeling, and I am seeking a contrary statement by > the Buddha > that asserts their simultaneity. ------- N: How could phassa that conditions feeling precede it? It contacts the object and condiitons feeling that arises together, then it falls away and next moment another contact and another feeling. ------------------------------------------- Yes, that is the claim. But it is not what I experience, and it is not plausible to me. ------------------------------------------- How could contact linger on? ------------------------------------------- There is no need for it to. There can be contact and *then* the resultant feeling . Not all conditionality is simultaneous. (A child having been born, will typically much later die, and not at the same time. After I open my eyes, I then see. After I slip, I then fall. After there is willing, there follows action.) Contact and feeling MIGHT be simultaneous, but my bet would be that contact (immediately) precedes feeling. In any case, I still seek a sutta that states the simultaneity. If one is shown to me, I will tend to believe the co-occurrence. -------------------------------------------- Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102507 From: Herman Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Wander alone like a rhinoceros. egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/11/18 sarah abbott > Dear Alex, > > >If we analyze from conventional, real world point of view: There was a > historic Buddha, there are suttas (which is what we are analyzing), > there IS effort and khandhas that do the effort in the forest and other > secluded place. Forest and secluded places are aggregates too! > .... > S: This is just thinking from a conventional pov about concepts, even if > it's 'right' thinking. 'Forest', 'seccluded places', 'suttas' and 'historic > Buddha' are all concepts, not khandhas. There can never be insight into any > of them, only wise or unwise thinking about them. > ... > Are you able to stop thinking about concepts? > >Not all circumstances (rupa kkhandha and other relevant kkhandhas) is > suitable. > .... > S: Any khandha appearing - whether nama or rupa - is always suitable: it's > the only object that can be known now (or at any other time). > 'Circumstances' is an illusion when it comes to the development of insight. > ... > Is there the development of insight? Or is there just more thinking? > >Sitting in a strip club ogling women and drinking beer isn't a most > suitable place to develop the meditation (at least not for a beginner. > Advanced student won't desire to go there in the first place). > ... > S: We're not in a strip club or drinking beer now and neither of us is > inclined to go anyway. Instead of imagining long stories about other good or > bad circusmstances, what about understanding the realities which can be > known now while we 'speak'? I would say that everything that is understood while writing to another person is entirely conceptual in nature. > Seeing is seeing, for example. If there is understanding now of seeing, as > distinct from what is seen, we're not concerned about other > suitable/unsuitable places. > Putting oneself in a situation which requires conceptual thinking is never a precursor to end conceptual thinking. > ... > >We can replace strip club (which is made of kkhandhas and concepts) with > busy shopping center and use the same arguments. It is not a suitable > circustance of khandha, ayatana, dhatu, etc, to develop insight, any real > insight, for most if not all bearers of aggregates. > ... > S: What is the difference between the seeing now and the seeing at any > other moment? Any khandha, any dhatu, anytime can be the object of insight. > When we appreciate that there are only ever the present khandhas arising and > that any rupa whatsoever is rupa khandha and so on for the other khandhas, > we will think less and less about favourable and unfavourable khandhas - > they are all impermanent and dukkha after all. > > The way is to understand more about the realities, the khandhas, not to > think more and more about potential imaginary scenarios - we're expert at > that already, without the Buddha's assistance. > Yes, agreed. That is 99.999999% of the story of one's life. And if we just keep on doing what we do, that is how it will stay. Just as an exercise, next time you leave home and go to lock the door of your apartment, just try and understand that reality, and to help you understand the reality somewhat more accurately, don't lock the door but just leave. And the same with your car, or any other property that you might normally secure. Just notice what stream of thinking arises when you let go a teeny-weeny bit of that distinction mine / not mine. The point I'm making is that one has no idea of the enormous conceptual framework that is being propped up by everything we do so 'naturally'. The chances of any insight arising while being 'natural' are zilch :-) Cheers Herman #102508 From: Herman Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling egberdina Hi Howard, 2009/11/21 > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 11/20/2009 2:39:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > Op 20-nov-2009, om 14:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > My own (quite possibly flawed) observation is that phassa *precedes* > > and conditions feeling, and I am seeking a contrary statement by > > the Buddha > > that asserts their simultaneity. > ------- > N: How could phassa that conditions feeling precede it? It contacts > the object and condiitons feeling that arises together, then it falls > away and next moment another contact and another feeling. > ------------------------------------------- > Yes, that is the claim. But it is not what I experience, and it is not > plausible to me. > ------------------------------------------- > > How could > contact linger on? > ------------------------------------------- > There is no need for it to. There can be contact and *then* the > resultant feeling . Not all conditionality is simultaneous. (A child > having been > born, will typically much later die, and not at the same time. After I > open > my eyes, I then see. After I slip, I then fall. After there is willing, > there follows action.) Contact and feeling MIGHT be simultaneous, but my > bet > would be that contact (immediately) precedes feeling. > A person would do well to allow you to invest money on their behalf :-) The whole of science stands firmly behind you, Howard, there can be a gap of hundreds of milliseconds between a stimulus, and awareness of that. What is entirely marvellous is that the Buddha penetrated the illusory nature of what consciousness weaves without the help of modern technology. Cheers Herman #102509 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/20/2009 2:58:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 20-nov-2009, om 15:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > In any case, with regard to seeing, this certainly harmonizes with > my number 2), which I do "opt for." But that contradicts your > assertion 1) > that asserts that seeing consciousness is always either wholesome or > unwholesome (not neutral), and when unwholesome it must have an > unpleasant > object. --------- N: Let me clarify one point. Seeing-consciousness cannot be wolesome nor unwholesome. I said: kusala VIPAAKA or akusala VIPAAKA. Vipaaka is result of kamma, it is passive, it is not active like kusala citta or akusala citta. There are four jaatis or classes of citta: kusala akusala, vipaaka, kiriya. Kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka are just one jaati, the jaati that is vipaaka. ------------------------------------------------ What you said, Nina, was that "... the vipaakacitta seeing- consciousness must be either kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. As I said: when seeing is kusala vipaakacitta its object is pleasant, and when it is akusala vipaakacitta its object is unpleasant, it could not be otherwise." That seems pretty clear to me, Nina. The object of seeing consciousness is thus either pleasant or unpleasant! I understand that the seeing consciousness itself is neither wholesome nor unwholesome, because it is a result - of course. That has no bearing on what I have written to you on this thread. My point was that the object of seeing consciousness being pleasant or unpleasant is incompatible with it the feeling of it being indifferent! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps now it may be clearer to follow what I said. > > > N: Body-consciousness is accompanied by pleasant (bodily) feeling > or by > unpleasant (bodily) feeling, because the impact of the object on > bodysense is more violent. Bodily feeling is feeling that is vipaaka, > it accompanies vipaakacitta. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > I haven't a clue what you can mean by a "pleasant object." ------ N: Temperature may be just right (not too hot, not too cold) and then a pleasant object is experienced through the body-consciousness. ----------------------------------------------- So? ---------------------------------------------- --------- > What is > pleasantness other than "of the nature to be felt as pleasant"? > What is felt > indifferently (or neutrally) is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. > Inherent > pleasantness independent of feeling is a nonsensical notion so far > as I can > tell. Pleasant, unpleasant, and indifferent are the three modes of > feeling, > and nothing else. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: Yes, three kinds of feeling. But citta and the accompanying > feeling experience an object that may be pleasant or unpleasant. > Feeling experiences the same object as citta but in its own way, it > feels. > > ------------------------------------------------ > What is indifferently felt is neither > pleasant nor unpleasant. If sights are always neutral in feel, then > they are > never pleasant or unpleasant. Subsequent mental-consciousness objects > concocted by thought proliferation may be pleasant or unpleasant, > but not the > prior visible object itself! > ------- N: We cannot say: sights are neutral in feel. We have to differentiate object, citta and feeling. Main thing is you find it difficult to accept that kamma conditions the vipaakacitta to experience a pleasant object or an unpleasant object. It is never neutral. ----------------------------------------------------- I don't have any idea of what it means for an object to "be pleasant" other than to be felt as pleasant. Pleasantness independent of vedana is nonsense to me. ---------------------------------------------------- Nina. ============================= With metta Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102510 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > Op 20-nov-2009, om 14:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > My own (quite possibly flawed) observation is that phassa *precedes* > > and conditions feeling, and I am seeking a contrary statement by > > the Buddha > > that asserts their simultaneity. > ------- > N: How could phassa that conditions feeling precede it? It contacts > the object and condiitons feeling that arises together, then it falls > away and next moment another contact and another feeling. How could > contact linger on? > Nina. Hello Howard, Nina and all 1st) Contact (Phasso) is *not* a bare impact like two balls hitting each other. It is more of a conscious interaction. Like "John is in contact with Jack". 2nd) In MN43 consciousness, feeling and perception - come TOGETHER. The separation is purely abstract. 3rd) Internal faculty + external object = consciousness. Already at this point with consciousness there is feeling. Three of them is phasso. So phasso is actually more complex than consciousness (which comes with vedana & sanna). "Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html With metta, Alex #102511 From: Herman Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah’s Faulty Personal Opinions egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/11/19 kenhowardau > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > , "abhidhammika" > wrote: > > > > Dear Han and Suan, > > Thankyou for discussing this topic. So far, Suan has told us that there > *is* a formal vipassana practice. He has said the above quote refers to > this practice. > > In fact, the quote asserts that there can be development of the four > foundations of mindfulness. But no one here has ever disputed that! The > inclusion of "for seven days" doesn't change anything at all. The > question still remains; what is meant by "develop these four > foundations"? Is it an instruction to formally practice in some way, or > is it a description of conditioned dhammas? > > It is clearly and unambiguously an instruction to formally practice in some way. Just read the relevant suttas, and you will see that they are constructed in the form of prescriptions. That's the easy bit. Having said that, I understand the point you are making, but I am not sure if you are entitled to make it. Having done the work, ie uprooting without remnant the notion of a self as a partner in the arising and ceasing of whatever happens, speaking with authority on how things are would be quite justified. Cheers Herman #102512 From: Herman Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dutiya Migajaala Suttam Translation Minus Sarah's Faulty Personal Opinions egberdina Hi Nina, 2009/11/19 Nina van Gorkom > Dear Han, > Op 19-nov-2009, om 11:05 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > > > It was not that he was asking every people to practice 20 hours a > > day. But he did stress the need for intensive practice to achieve > > the goal. > ------ > N: Thank you very much for your clarification. > Amazing about your relatives sitting so long. About getting prizes, I > will not add anything. > But you already have. Ha Ha :-) Cheers Herman #102513 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:49 pm Subject: DUTIYA DASABALASUTTAM Re: To Suan: Sammappadhaana kenhowardau Dear Han, We are all entitled to our opinions, and so I have no objection to your current conversation with Suan. However, you mentioned earlier that you were concerned about a fortunate rebirth, and so there is a suggestion I would like to make. I think the most meritorious thing we can do is to pay respect to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. And, in my opinion, the best way of paying this respect is to acknowledge the true meaning of the Buddha's words. I am not saying that you were not doing this. But I do wonder what Suan's "intensive practice" entails. Is it an acknowledgement of the true meaning of the Buddha's words? Or is it just conventional teeth-clenching, sensory deprivation and other forms of self torment? The Buddha's words were profound, deep in meaning and known only to the wise. We should acknowledge them as such. We should not see their meaning as common and ordinary. I think you will agree that the primary way of seeing the true meaning of the Buddha's words is to remember anatta. We should ask ourselves, "Is this interpretation consistent with anatta?" If it is consistent, it will make the meaning different from any ordinary meaning. And not just slightly different, profoundly different! Ken H #102514 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:19 pm Subject: [dsg] DUTIYA DASABALASUTTAM Re: To Suan: Sammappadhaana hantun1 Dear Ken, Ken: We are all entitled to our opinions, and so I have no objection to your current conversation with Suan. Han: I do not want to be rude. But I do not mind if you have any objection to my conversation with anyone I like. -------------------- Ken: However, you mentioned earlier that you were concerned about a fortunate rebirth, and so there is a suggestion I would like to make. Han: My concern about a fortunate rebirth was a long time ago. Now, I do not care. I will do the meritorious deeds as much as I can, to the best of my ability, and I do not care about the results. The complex Law of Kamma will bring to me the results that I deserve. -------------------- Ken: But I do wonder what Suan's "intensive practice" entails. Is it an acknowledgement of the true meaning of the Buddha's words? Or is it just conventional teeth-clenching, sensory deprivation and other forms of self torment? The Buddha's words were profound, deep in meaning and known only to the wise. We should acknowledge them as such. We should not see their meaning as common and ordinary. I think you will agree that the primary way of seeing the true meaning of the Buddha's words is to remember anatta. We should ask ourselves, "Is this interpretation consistent with anatta?" If it is consistent, it will make the meaning different from any ordinary meaning. And not just slightly different, profoundly different! Han: If you wonder what Suan's "intensive practice" is, I request you to deal directly with him and find it out yourself. I do not give my opinion about other peoples' practice. Han #102515 From: "colette" Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's last word, IGNORANCE IS BLISS ksheri3 MAJOR CORRECTION HERE ON A TYPO: I wrote: their turntable with the little protrusion sticking up from the turntable to be inserted in the whole of the record, the platter, the fashion plate, the model, and they can glorify themselves in their sobomistic way by crying like babies. > the word that messes up the thought, concept, it "sobomistic" when it should have said "Somnamulistic" meaning a period of supposed sleep, a guise that is used to portray this illusion called "HYPNOTISM". Yes, it all gets into this schtick about THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE and programming a person to perform as a robot, but what I'm saying is that all CONDITIONING is the exact same thing as programming a robot to behave, to function, to exist exactly as if they were nothing more than numbers on a balance sheet being added and subtracted to make some stinkin materialists version of MONEY the only reality which exists. Pardon me. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Sarah, <...> #102516 From: "colette" Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:58 pm Subject: "Please fasten your seatbelts before take off" ksheri3 Hi Herman, Come on! > but there is no evidence that your mind exists either! > cotette: WHAT? You are telling me that I should question the existance of my own mind? As I have prepared a comment to you concerning you cognition that our interaction has brought enlightenment to me only because I have told you that you brought enlightenment to me, I cannot fathom the concept of me actually telling my own mind that it does not exist while every other mind exists and that my mind is nothing more than a computer relay terminal from the main frame computer that rules the slaves that are addicted to the status quo, to DOGMA. How can you tell me that my mind does not exist when my mind is internal to me and your mind is external to me. How can, THEN, something external tell me what is and is not INTERNAL to my own being? THAT'S A WOPPER! -------------------------- > There simply is no privileged access to anything called a mind, any mind. colette: GREAT GAG-ZO0KS, evern HEAVENS TO MERGATROID. WHAT? Do you mean to suggest that I have to put in a request form to access my own mind? Whose mind is it? Pardon me, you must be suggesting that the Buddha was seriously doing drugs when the Buddha dictated that Mind-Consiousness exists. You must be attempting to gratify some drug dealer and some drug manufacturer for producing the drugs that the Buddha was using to hallucinate this phantasm of a MIND-C0NSIOUSNESS. <...> __________________________________ What there is, well, mostly it's > just thinking. colette: and just what does the thinking if not a mind? So now you're telling me that the mind does exist and each and every person has the ability to think through the mind which is their own. Okay, help me out. Which is it: Do sentient beings have a mind OR do sentient beings have a computer relay terminal? <...> good to hear from you. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi colette, > > 2009/11/18 colette > > > Hi Howard, > > > > I luv it: you've given the position that NO EVIDENCE IS PRESENT THAT > > ESTABLISHES THE EXISTANCE OF ANOTHER MIND OR OTHER MINDS. The question then > > comes: does another mind other than your own mind, exist? > > o > Brace yourself. I am not talking about you personally, the same goes for > anyone, but there is no evidence that your mind exists either! <...> #102517 From: "colette" Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] and another thing about the INVASION: ksheri3 Hi Howard, WELL, haven't we taken on the aire of distinction? BEtter watch out, up there, I hear that they only breathe LIQUID OXYGEN aka LOX. <...> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Herman (and Colette) - > > In a message dated 11/19/2009 1:17:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > >> ----------------------------------------------- > Other than as imagined by A. I. researchers, has there ever existed > thinking without consciousness? colette: that's a wopper, man. I have never thought of a difference between a "Consciousness" and the simple process of "Thinking". I'm shocked since the first question to pass by my viewing screen of my mind's eye is: "CONSCIOUSNESS is a RESULTANT PHENOMENA from THINKING" WOW, what a thought. ---------------------- I'm not aware of any. So, to say that mind is > mostly thinking doesn't make nothing of mind/mentality. colette: surely you don't get it. the concept of "consciousness" is defined in many aspects by the Buddha's doctrine and analysis, further detailed by the followers of the Buddha who manifested the ABHIDHARMA. This worthless label called MIND is so miss leading and miss directing. <...> lets go with this old wives tale about this "feminine inuition". isn't that MIND? How about any "bad feelings" or 'bad vibes' you get before making a decision which negates the affirmation of the decision? isn't that "MIND"? What about the "Third Eye", isn't that MIND? <...> --------------------------------- I share your > reluctance, however, for using expressions such as 'a mind' and 'minds'. > What we call "mind" is nothing more or less than a complex of mental > operations and qualities, both cognitive and affective, most centrally the > presence of object-content that is called "consciousness" . colette: this is good. You have now given to us an eloquent description of this thing we are all trying to pigeon hole into the slot labeled MIND. STILL, this definition is worthless since it does not take into consideration the concepts that were excluded from entering the cave and manifesting the FIRST TURNING OF THE WHEEL <...> <....> --------------------------- Actually, I > think that 'mind' is used throughout the suttas primarily in two distinct ways > (on different occasions), one as I indicated in the last sentence, and the > other as thinking/conceptualizing. There is also his "official" definition > of mind (or nama) as the complex of operations consisting of feeling, > perception, volition, contact and attention. colette: you fail to recognize the omission of MAGIK. While in Eastern philosophy they call it TANTRA you simply cognize that which you are programmed to cognize. <...> ------------------------------ (This presentation omits > consciousness, replacing it by contact. More critically it misses emotions and a > host of mental qualities.) > ---------------------------------------------------- GLAD TO HEAR FROM BOTH OF YOU, HERMAN AND HOWARD. toodles, colette #102518 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:15 pm Subject: A Bit More About Phasa and Vedana/Nina upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - I have a couple more thoughts on this matter, having thought further about it: 1) If a feeling is just a mental quality/sensation arising due to contact with some object, it is clear that it could follow the contact or be simultaneous with it, but following would make more sense to me. 2) If feeling is a mental operation that affectively "tastes" an object, as is the Abhidhammic perspective (which I tend to accept), then it would either have to be doing the tasting while the object is present or would have to apply to a fresh memory (or sign) of the object. In case it applies to the sign, then the feeling occurs after the contact. In case it applies to the object directly, when the object is a rupa which lasts during up to 17 mind states (according to Abhidhamma or commentaries - I'm not sure which), it could still certainly occur after the contact, and that actually seems more likely than at the exact moment of contact. I still am very curious to know what if anything is said about this simultaneity issue in suttas. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102519 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:01 am Subject: [dsg] DUTIYA DASABALASUTTAM Re: To Suan: Sammappadhaana kenhowardau Dear Han, ------------------ KH: > > We are all entitled to our opinions, and so I have no objection to your current conversation with Suan. Han: > I do not want to be rude. But I do not mind if you have any objection to my conversation with anyone I like. -------------------- I don't want to be rude either. But there is no control. Sometimes rudeness comes out regardless of how carefully we try to construct our sentences. My approach to DSG discussions is to treat everyone equally. If something sounds rude to some people and not to others, I am sure they will survive. So I am prepared to take that risk. I don't think there is any need to treat anyone at DSG with special deference (as one might treat a "Traditional Theravada Teacher"). Nor do I think there is any excuse to talk down to anyone (as one might to an ill-behaved interloper or "internet troll"). Let's just do our best to keep the conversations flowing, and not worry too much about possibly saying the wrong thing. -------------------------- <. . .> Han: > My concern about a fortunate rebirth was a long time ago. -------------------------- Sorry, I forgot the details. At least I was partly right. :-) ---------------------------------- <. . .> Han: > If you wonder what Suan's "intensive practice" is, I request you to deal directly with him and find it out yourself. I do not give my opinion about other peoples' practice. ----------------------------------- Yes, I worded that badly. I don't really "wonder" what Suan's practice entails, he has explained enough already. It is a formal practice. That's all I need to know. Belief in the efficacy of formal practice is the opposite of belief in the efficacy of conditioned dhammas. They can't both be right. The two beliefs do not mix. Therefore, I think all Dhamma students need to discuss this dichotomy. Before we can go deeply into our studies we need to start at the right beginning. Not at the wrong beginning. Ken H #102520 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:40 am Subject: Re: A Bit More About Phasa and Vedana/Nina truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi again, Nina - > > I have a couple more thoughts on this matter, having thought further > about it: > > 1) If a feeling is just a mental quality/sensation arising due to > contact with some object, it is clear that it could follow the contact or be > simultaneous with it, but following would make more sense to me. > 2) If feeling is a mental operation that affectively "tastes" an > object, as is the Abhidhammic perspective (which I tend to accept), then it > would either have to be doing the tasting while the object is present or would > have to apply to a fresh memory (or sign) of the object. In case it applies > to the sign, then the feeling occurs after the contact. In case it applies > to the object directly, when the object is a rupa which lasts during up to > 17 mind states (according to Abhidhamma or commentaries - I'm not sure > which), it could still certainly occur after the contact, and that actually > seems more likely than at the exact moment of contact. > I still am very curious to know what if anything is said about this > simultaneity issue in suttas. > > With metta, > Howard Hello Howard, all, As I understand the suttas, the experience happens in "clusters". Many factors co-arise together and the conditionality is not linear. Remember the sheaves of reed simile? Sure some phenomena is more complex, but it is based on simpler events happening AT THAT TIME. Ex of complexity: (more basic) vinnana - contact - feeling - perception (more complex) They happen at the same time and their conditionality happens at the same time. Ultimately speaking one *cannot* separate some things into self-independent particles, at least not as far mental experience is concerned. With metta, Alex #102521 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:05 am Subject: Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. ptaus1 Dear Nina (Howard and KenO), Thanks for your reply. Also thanks to Howard and KenO for participating. What is confusing me about this topic is how can we even talk about an "object" that has a certain characteristic (pleasant or not) at this stage of the cognitive process - at the beginning of the sense-door process: As Nina explained, at the moment of seeing-consciousness there is only "what is seen" - meaning that there are no separate objects like gold (or dung) cognised as yet (which happens later on in the mind-door processes that follow). In other words - at the moment of seeing-consciousness - there seems to be no distinguishing features in the "object" of seeing that would make it different from some previous, just as indistinguishable, object of seeing consciousness. So, no gold, no dung yet. - So, on what basis is it said that the "object" of seeing consciousness, which has no distinguishing features yet, is pleasant or unpleasant or anything at all at that moment? - Or maybe it is just a matter of convention that's saying that some sort of definite object (like gold or dung) will eventually emerge in the cognitive process? - Or the characteristic of pleasantness is simply brought about by vipaka condition, and has nothing to do with what is being seen at the moment of seeing consciousness (which is nothing specific at that moment as yet, since there are no definite objects like gold or dung singled out yet)? Best wishes pt > N: We cannot say: sights are neutral in feel. We have to > differentiate object, citta and feeling. > Main thing is you find it difficult to accept that kamma conditions > the vipaakacitta to experience a pleasant object or an unpleasant > object. It is never neutral. #102522 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:23 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (71) ptaus1 Dear Nina, > Ruupas do not arise singly, they always arise collectively, in groups (kalaapas). Where there is solidity, the Element of Earth, there have to be the other three Great Elements, and also colour, flavour, odour and nutrition. These are the eight inseparable ruupas. A group of ruupas consisting of only the eight inseparable ruupas is called a "pure octad". Pure octads of the body are produced by citta, temperature or nutrition, and pure octads outside the body are produced only by temperature. I was wondering - ruupa kalaapas comprising water would have much more of the water element than earth element, compared to dirt for example, which would have more earth element than water element, right? How about seeing versus smelling? If we see a patch of dirt, does that mean that that particular kalaapa that's in contact with our eyes has more color ruupa, while the one that comes in contact with our nose in some next moment has more odour than color? Thanks. Best wishes pt #102523 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself ptaus1 Dear Nina, > > What is your understanding why a medium is not cited as a condition > > for hearing? As mentioned, sound as a natural phenomenon cannot > > exist without a medium like air, water, etc. > > > N: I do not understand the word medium. pt: Sorry, I'll try to explain a little better. In my understanding, not including a medium as a condition for hearing would be the same as not including light as a condition for seeing, or air for smelling. To explain the "medium": Perhaps you have seen how a loudspeaker makes sound (on a tv, or a radio, etc) it is just a membrane, which moves forward and backward, and so "creates" sound. When it moves forward, it basically pushes the air (molecules) right next to it. These air molecules then push the molecules next to them, and so on, until this pushing (propagation of sound) reaches the ear. So in this case air is the medium through which sound propagates. The same happens in water, or any other "medium" that has molecules that can transfer the pushing movement from the sound-source (like loudspeaker, voice, horn) to the receiver (ear). So, if we were to put that loudspeaker and our head in a vacuum, no sound would reach our ears because there would be no air molecules to transfer the "pushing" from the loudspeaker to the ears. On the other hand propagation of sound in water is much faster than in air (4 times I think) because water molecules are much more densely packed than air molecules, so the pushing transfers much faster. The bottom line being that without a medium, sound would not be possible, and, dependent on the medium, sound would have different properties. Best wishes, pt #102524 From: Herman Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] DUTIYA DASABALASUTTAM Re: To Suan: Sammappadhaana egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/11/21 kenhowardau > > I don't want to be rude either. But there is no control. Sometimes > rudeness comes out regardless of how carefully we try to construct our > sentences. My approach to DSG discussions is to treat everyone equally. > If something sounds rude to some people and not to others, I am sure > they will survive. So I am prepared to take that risk. > > I don't think there is any need to treat anyone at DSG with special > deference (as one might treat a "Traditional Theravada Teacher"). Nor do > I think there is any excuse to talk down to anyone (as one might to an > ill-behaved interloper or "internet troll"). Let's just do our best to > keep the conversations flowing, and not worry too much about possibly > saying the wrong thing. > > It would be fantastic if this could be a general guideline that all of us here adopt. I personally have never been a fan of the manipulation that is passed of as "right speech" here. In an Internet discussion ( I don't care if that is conceptual :-)) all that is necessary is to just cordially make one's point, without first needing to perfect the art of circambulation. I think most of us do very well already, you included. Cheers Herman PS I like my circambulations anti-clockwise, please, with a little jig when NNE :-) #102525 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Third kind of nibbana element and cessation ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply and the quotes. > >pt: > Yes, agreed that they are objects of clinging for others, but I meant for arahats/buddhas themselves - they do not cling to their nama aggregates anymore, and yet their nama aggregates still operate! > ... > S: Yes, for the rest of that life only. That's why the texts refer to a) kilesa-parinibbaana or sa-upaadi-sesa-nibbaana (Nibbana with the khandhas still remaining and b) khandha-parinibbaana or an-upaadi-sesa-nibbaana (Nibbana without the khandhas remaining, i.e no more of samsaara at the death of the arahat). pt: From memory, I think this is the point that Mahayana people make - if there are operative aggregates during Buddha's life, but there's no clinging to them by that same Buddha, that means these are non-clinging aggregates (for him). So, then the conclusion is made that for a Buddha, these non-clinging aggregates continue after death as a direct result of all his innumerable perfections/compassionate actions (arahats, having done much less perfections/compassionate actions, can only have non-clinging aggregates for a short-while). As you pointed out, this doesn't quite go together with the cuti citta having to be the last one in life, so they get around it by saying that the Buddha doesn't in fact die, but only puts on a show of dying to demonstrate the 3 marks... Anyway, I think we can drop this for now as there's no Mahayana expert here to participate in the argument. Best wishes, pt > " 'On emerging from the fourth meditation, the Blessed One immediately attained parinibbaana':.....the Blessed One attained meditation and emerged from that, contemplated the constituents of his meditation [S: paccavekkhanaa, reviewing consciousness which reviews the jhaana"ngaa, jhaana factors], and attained parinibbaana with the subconsciousness [bhavanga] which is undeclated [S:cuti citta, the last citta of life], the truth of suffering. Whoever finish their life-span, whether Buddhas, Pacceka-buddhas or noble disciples, down to ants and termites, all do so with the subconsciousness which is undeclared, the truth of suffering." #102528 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) ptaus1 Dear Sarah, (Re: 101726) I've been considering your reply on samatha. Here's what I have to say so far: > S: We agree then that any kind of bhavana, as far as "kusala and understanding" are concerned, refers to cittas, not to "formal" or "informal" practices. pt: Yes, if we're speaking on the ultimate level. Though I think most misunderstandings about "formal" vs "informal" practices happen on the conventional levels - different people invest different meanings in those concepts. > S: If we consider the kinds and levels of concentration and panna, what is it that distinguishes moments of samatha/vipassana bhavana from other moments if not the kusala qualities and accompanying understanding? For example, a trapeeze performer or a bank robber have high degrees of concentration and skill, don't they? On the other hand, there may be many moments of samatha and panna in our day, such as when showing kindness to others and understanding the value of such metta, as opposed to its near and far enemies, with a far weaker level of concentration. pt: Agreed. But I wonder, can "many moments of samatha and panna in our day" lead to jhana? Or is something extra needed for developing jhana? > S: The point I'm making is that without a clear understanding of kusala and akusala, the concentration appearing during the day or during a special practice is most likely akusala. pt: Agreed. > S: In my opinion, there's far too much talk about access and absorption concentration when we don't even understand what samatha is, what kusala cittas are, what momentary wholesome calm is. Just concentrating on an object, such as the breath, while keeping still, hoping for access or absorption is bound to be with very strong attachment, isn't it? pt: Well, yes and no. In the beginning, sure, mostly akusala, but we have the capacity to learn/understand (panna!), so I think for most - these mistakes help to learn and tell the difference between kusala and akusala. It's almost impossible to start with kusala and keep it only kusala, but easy to start with akusala and see the problems of it (with a little help from wise friends), and understanding the problems then naturally leads to kusala. > S: As I understand them, both kinds of bhavana [pt: samatha and vipassana] rely not on concentration, but on understanding. pt: Agreed, though I think it would be just as useful to know what differentiates samatha and vipassana. > S: So, it means "producing" (kusala) calm or insight. It is only right understanding which can know when the pleasant calm feeling now is kusala or akusala, for example. When there is no understanding developed, usually the concentration, such as when studying a language, academic subject or focussing on a particular object is taken to be kusala. pt: Agreed. > S: Yes, I agree. Kusala bhavana "can happen "in spite of" unwholesome habits". This is why we cannot judge the cittas from the situation, whether that be studying a text in Pali, sitting formally, exchanging friendly greetings or any other time. In other words, bhavana cannot be defined in terms of "formal" or "informal" practice, but only in terms of various kusala qualities, beginning with right understanding. Isn't this where we started?:-). pt: :) Yeah, I think we're just getting to understand what each means by "formal/informal" :) Perhaps it would help if you can explain your understanding of how exactly a person (a relative beginner) develops jhana in your understanding. So, not just how s/he develops samatha, which can happen with dry insight path as well, but how s/he develops actual jhana. Thanks. Best wishes pt #102529 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:24 am Subject: Re: Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok ptaus1 Dear Sarah, I just wanted to thank you for your replies #101767-8. I've been meaning to ask a bit about them, but I still need more time to consider them properly. Best wishes pt #102530 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:22 am Subject: Re: Inducing samatha jonoabb Hi Alex (102495) > I agree that: > > 1) Everything arises due to a specific cause. > 2) Everything is conditioned and cannot be simply willed to happen. > 3) Ignorance is the basis for unwholesome states > 4) Wisdom, wise reflection its is basis for wholesome states > 5) With wisdom, 4 right efforts (and other things) happen. > 6) "Person" doesn't "do" meditation or insight. It is just a series of momentary mind-moments arises and passing away. > 7) Everything can be reduced to khandha/ayatana/dhatu namarupa arising and ceasing. > > > What I don't agree with is the notion that meditating, effort, forest-dwelling, etc doesn't conventionally happen. It does happen as a conditioned namarupa process, all fully conditioned of course. > =============== J: Thanks for your points 1 to 7. There is much that we agree on! As regards your last paragraph, I've not said that forest-dwelling (for example) doesn't conventionally happen. It does. Our differences are in relation to the significance of forest-dwelling as spoken of by the Buddha. The Buddha did praise and encourage forest-dwelling but, to my understanding, he did so for those who were able to live that way properly, that is to say, maintaining sila and developing kusala. It was not prescribed for all. It was not given as a prerequisite for the development of insight. Only some monks in the Buddha's time were forest-dwellers. Others lived in monasteries in or near towns (and still became enlightened). They were also following the monk's life purely and fully. Living in the forest in and of itself is not kusala. Whether or not a given individual will benefit from following that particular lifestyle depends on the individual's tendencies and understanding. Hoping we're not as far apart on this as you thought. Jon #102531 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:20 am Subject: Re: Formal instructions in VsM jonoabb Hi Icaro (102488) > Kusala Dhamma is only a blink of an eye...so fast that at the next second, its gone. A pretty lasagna, a delicious cup of coffee..and at next, nothing. > =============== This is the first time I've seen kusala likened to lasagne and coffee! ;-)) Since both of these items are off the menu for me these days, I'll have to substitute other "goodies" in my own case ;-)) > =============== > > > It's good to have you back! Anything of interest to report on events >during your absence? > > Oh, nothing special! At Brazil, Public Service access is by examinations - I had got a good score at the INMETROs, and my MSc on Engineering raised up my chances a lot...now, I am just waiting my assignment. > =============== Best of luck! Jon > > However, it demanded too a lot of study. Only just at these last days Ive reenacted my Vism and - mainly - Abhidhamma Sangaha readings. #102532 From: Herman Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/11/20 sarah abbott > Hi Herman, > > --- On Fri, 20/11/09, Herman wrote: > > S: I see no value in the conventional meaning of being a 'loner', > eschewing > > company, living apart. It may all be out of attachment or a rejection of > > society. I just see meaning in the development of wholesome qualities > such > > as panna, metta, dana, samatha and so on. > > > > >Can I ask you the following, because I think there is room for what you > said > to be misunderstood? Are you implying that the development of the wholesome > qualities you mention does not lead to a rejection of society, it's rites > and rituals, it's values? > ... > S: I'm implying that the development of wholesome qualities, as mentioned > above leads to the decrease of attachment and in the case of satipatthana, > to the decrease and eventually the eradication of ignorance and wrong view. > > If one thinks that the development of awareness, understanding, metta and > other wholesome qualities leads to a rejection of society, in the sense > above out of aversion towards being amongst people, then it's wrong. > Would you and the commentators have the Buddha excommunicated for the following?: From Vinaya (around the beginning somewhere thereish) "Now if I proclaim the Doctrine, and other men are not able to understand my preaching, there would result but weariness and annoyance to me." From Udana IV:5 5. Thus have I heard. On a certain occasion the Blessed One dwelt at Kosambi in the Ghosita monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was living surrounded by a crowd of monks and nuns, of male and female lay disciples, of kings and their ministers, as well as by heretical sects and their pupils, and he suffered annoyance and discomfort. And this thought occurred to him: "Surrounded by a crowd of monks and nuns, of male and female votaries, of kings and their ministers, as well as by heretical sects and their pupils, I suffer annoyance and discomfort. What if I were to live alone, remote from the crowd?" And the Blessed One robing himself in the forenoon and taking his alms-bowl and tunic, entered Kosambi for alms. Having perambulated Kosambi for alms, he returned from his rounds and after finishing his meal, he himself put in order his sleeping place, and taking his alms-bowl and tunic, and without informing his servitor or giving notice to the Brethren, he departed, alone, without a companion, in the direction of Palileyyaka and wandering from place to place he reached Palileyyaka and took up his abode there. And the Blessed One sojourned in the dense grove Rakkhil, in the vicinity of Palileyyaka, at the foot of the Bhadda Sl tree. Now a certain noble elephant lived there, who was much inconvenienced by a crowd of male and female elephants, young elephants and elephant calves. He had to feed on blades of grass with their tips broken off, and they ate the young branches which he himself had broken down. He had also to drink water that had been polluted and when he plunged (into the water) to cross over, the female elephants rubbed their bodies against him. In consequence of this crowd he was annoyed and lived ill at ease. And this thought occurred to the noble elephant; "Surrounded by a crowd of male elephants and she elephants, young elephants and elephant calves, I have to feed on blades of grass with their tips broken off and they eat the young branches I myself have broken down. I have also to drink water that has been polluted and when I plunge (into the water) to cross over, the female elephants rub their bodies against me. In consequence of this crowd I am annoyed and live ill at ease. What if I were to live alone, remote from the crowd?" And the noble elephant leaving the herd went to the deep groves of Rakkhita, in the vicinity of Palileyyaka, to the foot of the Bhadda Sl tree, where the Blessed One was. And when he arrived there, he removed the grass from the spot which the Blessed One occupied, and brought with his trunk drinking water for the Blessed One. And as the Blessed One was rejoicing in the calm of solitude and isolation, this thought arose; "Formerly, I lived a life of annoyance and discomfort surrounded by monks and nuns etc. [as above. *Transl*.]. Now no longer surrounded by monks and nuns etc. [as above. *Transl*.]. I live in comfort and at ease." And in the mind of the noble elephant this thought arose: "Formerly, I lived a life of annoyance and discomfort surrounded by male elephants and she elephants etc. [as above. *Transl*.]. Now no longer surrounded I live in comfort and at ease." And the Blessed One, with reference to his own solitude, and perceiving what was passing in the mind of that noble elephant, breathed forth this solemn utterance:-- "The heart of the noble elephant (with tusks like plough-poles) Is at one with the heart of the Noble One For each delights in (the solitude of) the forest." > It always comes back to the citta at any time, including this moment. Most > of our rejections are with akusala cittas, wouldn't you say? > Not at all. Rejection of rites and rituals occurs after insight into their non-efficacy. How is your merit-making progressing ? :-) Cheers Herman #102533 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- On Thu, 19/11/09, Herman wrote: >I hope you have returned to good health. ... S: Yes thanks, it was a minor problem....it just happened to occur around the time Lukas mentioned his unfortunate experience. Actually, I was thinking about how some of us have known each other on DSG for almost 10 years now - during that time, almost everyone has suffered minor or major illness, has lost relatives or friends, has experienced all sorts of gains and losses. It's the appreciation of the Dhamma, no matter how varied our understandings, that provides some sanctuary for most of us at such times... ... >>S: I spent most the night in the bathroom >Please do not take offence at what follows. I fully understand that you would go to the bathroom every time you felt you were going to vomit. I would have done the same. But, why do you question people who seek out an appropriate setting to learn and cultivate samatha/jhana, but have no qualms about seeking out an appropriate place to vomit? ... S: No offence at all, but I appreciate the 'courteous Herman':). It all depends on our purpose: if we're sick, we go to the bathroom because we all know and agree it's the suitable place to go. If we go to the forest "to learn and cultivate samatha/jhana", how will such learning and cultivation occur? I question what the understanding and purpose is in such an action. If there isn't any understanding of what samatha is now, why should there be any more understanding of it in the forest? Metta Sarah ======= #102534 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhs. The arising of consciousness - the 8 great resultants, mahavipaka sarahprocter... Hi Alberto & Lukas, --- On Sun, 15/11/09, sprlrt wrote: >Dhammasangani groups togheter the 8 great resultant cittas in a single paragraph, 498, filled with '... etc. ...'; the omitted text is given in full in the sections dealing with the corresponding 8 great kusala cittas (see msg # 101204) ... S: Thanks for the steer! >As to the omitted (etc.) text it is to be understood thus: the division into basis of meritorious deeds, courses of kamma and doors of kamma, which applies to kusala [cittas] of the sensous plane, don't apply here. Why? [S: to the vipaka cittas] Because here there is no intimation capability (aviattijanakato) , no cause for results (avipkadhammato) , and no going around in circles (appavattito) . ... S: These are no new terms for me, thank you. I thought of Lukas and the sickness: the moments of bodily painful feeling are vipaka, they are avi~n~nattijanakato, avipaakadhammato and appavattito. In other words, they are not cause for results or cause of further suffering...they are just momentary results of past kamma. The problem is not the bodily painful feeling, but the akusala response to it. .... >[since] resultants of the sensous plane can have only small objects (paritta rammana). [i.e. sankhra dhammas only, concepts not being included in the threefold, paritta-mahanta- appamna dhammas and rammana, classification of dhammas and objects, see Dhs. 1026-1031.] ... S: Too lazy to pull out the text now, but are not patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti cittas included here which can have concepts as object, as I recall? ... <...> ... They [the eight great resultants] result in four instances: as re-linking (patisandhi) , life-continuum (bhavanga), termination (cuti), and as registration (tadrammana) . .... S: Here they are included.... Sorry again that you won't be able to make it to Bangkok, Alberto. As usual, if either of you or anyone else has any questions/points you'd like us to raise, then pls pass them on nearer the time. The other points I mentioned under pakatuupanissaya paccaya with regard to climate and so on were points I've raised many times in the past and the comments were as I understand the answers to be. A deep topic. Metta Sarah ======= #102535 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Ken H & Azita, some good points - >>K: We both think we are going to need courage and detachment when future > crises unfurl. But, as you wrote in your previous post, it takes > courage > and detachment to face the present object with understanding. > > In the future, just like now, there will be only dhammas. ------- >N: We cannot be reminded enough of this. Only dhammas, also sadness about a loss is only a dhamma. When the unhappy feeling is very strong, it is difficult, though. ... S: This is why the only preparation is the understanding at this very moment. When we develop more understanding now, this is the accumulation which will lead to more understanding, more courage and detachment in future too. We imagine all the difficulties we may face in future, but just as we have no idea what the next dhamma will be now, so we have no idea how things will turn out in the future either. We dream about all sorts of scenarios and forget about being aware of the thinking, seeing or other reality appearing now. Azita has been keeping us informed about our other friend Jill's sickness and how she can no longer feed herself, for example. We couldn't have imagined this a couple of years ago when she seemed so strong and healthy. We never know. And yet, Azita tells us how strong, courageous and inspiring Jill is with her firm confidence in the understanding of present realities. The understanding of present dhammas is the only refuge. Metta Sarah ========= #102536 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhs. The arising of consciousness - the 8 great resultants, mahavipaka sarahprocter... Hi Alberto & all, typo: --- On Sat, 21/11/09, sarah abbott wrote: >Because here there is no intimation capability (aviattijanakato) , no cause for results (avipkadhammato) , and no going around in circles (appavattito) . ... >S: These are no new terms for me, thank you. ... S: this should have read: "These are new terms for me, thank you." Metta Sarah ====== #102537 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:44 pm Subject: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi chewsadhu Dear Nina, Sarah, Han, Catubbidhaa hi suddhi desanaasuddhi, sam.varasuddhi, pariyet.t.hisuddhi, paccavekkhan.asuddhiiti. Tattha desanaasuddhi naama paatimokkhasam.varasiilaṃ. Tahi desanaaya sujjhanato desanaasuddhiiti vuccati. Purification is of four kinds: purification by the Teaching, purification by restraint, purification by search, and purification by reviewing. Herein, virtue of the Patimokkha restraint is called 'purification by the Teaching'; for that is so called because it purifies by means of teaching. Sayadaw U Silananda said in his talks, desanaa here means "Confession", it is not "Teaching". I don't get it clearly. Can you elaborate it? Thanks and Sadhu. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #102538 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. nilovg Dear Azita and Sarah, Azita, please tell us more, so that we can appreciate and learn, Nina. Op 21-nov-2009, om 12:26 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Azita has been keeping us informed about our other friend Jill's > sickness and how she can no longer feed herself, for example. We > couldn't have imagined this a couple of years ago when she seemed > so strong and healthy. We never know. And yet, Azita tells us how > strong, courageous and inspiring Jill is with her firm confidence > in the understanding of present realities. The understanding of > present dhammas is the only refuge. #102539 From: Ken O Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known ashkenn2k Dear Howard >------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- >Howard: >This internal/external dichotomy is entirely conventional, the former >referring to what is experienced as occurring inside the body, and the >latter referring to what is experienced as outside the body. My point was that >is has nothing to do with the nama/rupa dichotomy. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- KO: Could you explain further on the nama/rupa dichotomy. I am not sure of your point in the nama/rupa dichotomy thanks and cheers Ken O #102540 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/21/2009 10:52:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard >------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- >Howard: >This internal/external dichotomy is entirely conventional, the former >referring to what is experienced as occurring inside the body, and the >latter referring to what is experienced as outside the body. My point was that >is has nothing to do with the nama/rupa dichotomy. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- KO: Could you explain further on the nama/rupa dichotomy. I am not sure of your point in the nama/rupa dichotomy ----------------------------------------- In the ongoing discussion of "internal" and "external," some have taken "internal" to refer to nama and "external" to rupa, and I'm just saying that the internal-external distinction is entirely different from the nama-rupa distinction. (Nothing special or pointed in my using 'dichotomy', which the dictionary defines as "a division into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups or entities." ------------------------------------------- thanks and cheers Ken O ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102541 From: Ken O Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself ashkenn2k Dear pt Space here should be taken as an aperture for sounds to travel into the ear sensitivity. The Expositor describe in at pg 411 <> Space here acts like a funnel for the vibrations of sound to reach into the ear sensitiviy irregardless which medium sound is transmitted. Cheers Ken O #102542 From: "Staisha Perry" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:26 pm Subject: Re:Re:Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying staisha_perry Hi sarah, thank you friend for your kindness and response ---------- peace in the way-staisha ------Original Message------ From: sarah abbott <...> S: Yes, delusion arises very quickly, always popping in:-) Like now, occasional moments of wise reflection and awareness and many, many moments of thinking about pannatti without any awareness....All anatta and all gone:-) No point dwelling on what's past. <...> #102543 From: "colette" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:21 pm Subject: "What goes up, must come down. Spinning wheel, got to go round" ksheri3 GOOOOOD MORNING HOWARD! Lets play with your radical concepts and delve into the UNKNOWN or UN-DOGMATIC (I allow for the right of any person to view the words of DOGMA as a form of CONDITIONING which the Buddha cognizes and the Abhidharma clearly explains, thus, to subscribe to dogma or be a "dogmatist" is to actually be conditioned and to actually relingquish all rights to the body and the mind which you and most people think they possess AFTER they sign the contract of PROSTITUTION, I mean, work with the Corporate Main Frame computer, making the paycheck the drug and making the robot, the employee the drug addict). Howard, I know that this is a strictly Therevadan Buddhist forum, however, we must accept the Buddha's begining. I was bantying about some triffles with SArah recently concerning her application of THE BUDDHA'S LAST WORDS, and I was applying it through the Madhyamika doctrine, but your interesting aspect and perspective of a consciousness only existing because of THINKING which manifests a mind preceding the thought(s) allows me to enter into the Buddha's childhood which is of a Brahman caste in the Hindu philosophy. Wow, these HINDUs have done a lot of work on the subjects that I'm proposing here. I have only touched on single little atom in the enormity of documentation they have on this subject. Lets look at the rupa/nama called, in Hindu TURIYA: "the state of pure consciousness. It is a fourth state of consciousness that underlies and transcends the three common states of consciousness: the state of waking consciousness (jagrata), the state of dreaming (svapna), and dreamless sleep (susupti)." In the wikipedia definition of Turiya that I'm applying here I ran into the Vishishtadvaita (Vaishnava) concept that defines "the self is independent of the body and mind." Interesting, don't you think? I clearly understand this condition which is opened here through this explaination to me by others more versed in the practices than I yet probably aren't more experienced in the practices than I. Dontcha luv it, I'm focusing here on the concept of an "I" actually existing. This goes back to countless theologies and philosophies that all struggle with this problem of pigeon holing this concept of an "I" or this concept of a "self" existing or not existing. This resonates with me, the concept of Turiya. It is a lovely way of touching upon subjects, CONDITIONS OF CONSCIOUSNESS WHICH I PLAY AROUND WITH AND ARE THE ONLY REALITY TO ME, TO MYSELF, YET INVOKE UNLIMITED FEAR WITHIN THE ORTHODOX COMMUNITY and/or the STATUS QUO aka Middle Class. isn't it wonderful how they, the Hindus, have accepted the condition of existance as existing and have actually done research and documentation on a subject which 99% of the "barrel of apples" considers to be TABOO? You know, I LOVE IT! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Herman (and Colette) - > > In a message dated 11/19/2009 1:17:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > > Hi colette, > > 2009/11/18 colette > > > Hi Howard, > > > > I luv it: you've given the position that NO EVIDENCE IS PRESENT THAT > > ESTABLISHES THE EXISTANCE OF ANOTHER MIND OR OTHER MINDS. The question > then > > comes: does another mind other than your own mind, exist? > > > Brace yourself. I am not talking about you personally, the same goes for > anyone, but there is no evidence that your mind exists either! > > There simply is no privileged access to anything called a mind, any mind. > Not by anyone, regardless of their resume. What there is, well, mostly it's > just thinking. > ----------------------------------------------- <...> #102544 From: "colette" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:43 pm Subject: Stasis? ksheri3 Hi Group, Last nite while I was reading a Turiya I was still confronted by Howard's interesting concept of "consciousness being subserviant to thinking" thus a resultant phenomena. So, what I was doing was merely calming the Turbulence (don't forget that word since I've got a littany of problems which result from that word aka CHAOS, VIOLENCE, et al) but what i was doing was calming the turbulence the volitility of the mind, my mind, so that I could better achieve "different states of consciousness", I ran into this problem: okay, ya gotta have experience with the rock group formerly known as FOGHAT, who, on their album FOOL FOR THE CITY, used cover graphics to depict the lead guitarist "Lonesome Dave" fishing with a fishing pole and a line, in a sewer in the middle of a street. So, this is the picture that should be in your mind. Does this picture equal the book CRAZY WISDOM or does it equal the actuality of a monk living in a cemetary and maintaining close relationships with prostitutes or sex workers? Both, the book Crazy Wisdom, and this monk that lived in a cemetary are widely accepted BUDDHIST REALITIES. is there an equality? toodles, colette #102545 From: "colette" Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:33 pm Subject: MAYBE? (pregnant pause) My name is Akhenaten? ksheri3 Hi Howard, As I said, I had already written a post to reply to this post you gave to me. here, I shall write/copy verbatim although it shows you a lot of the deleted material from my posts yesterday: > ================================= > I'm pleased that you feel that you have benefited from what I wrote, > and I thank you for telling me so. :-) > > With metta, > Howard > colette:"Why would you, only now, consider that our interaction brings me enlightenment? I would like to consider my view that our past interactions have brought enlightenment to me. In fact, regardless of your motives, regardless of your intent, and even regardless of your so-called FREE WILL, you offered to me the chance to exist in your mind; you extended to me the chance, the opporutinity to touch you and to practice what I preach. My guess is that 99% of humanity does not offer that reality to me where I presume the fact of "conditioning" to be the "Causation" and so I fend myself, first, from the illusions that I know you possess. <...> In this case I think it's wonderful that you see that I have been benefitted by our interaction yet, that atom-sized cognition is only a tiny part of the practises which the Buddha proclaimed. It's endless, it's timeless. You cannot step onto the stage of life and expect your "conditioning" to be ULTIMATE TRUTH. I'm glad to have this chance to speak with you and to speak with others concerning things that ARE MY LIFE but ya gotta start considering, from the moment your eyes were first opened, that you possess IGNORANCE and that IGNORNACE will always confound you, perplex you,destroy you, in one way or another way." THANK YOU HOWARD. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Colette - > > In a message dated 11/17/2009 4:44:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > ksheri3@... writes: > > Hi, > > This is just to finish up the "B" part of the "KNOWING/KNOWN" problem I > ran into in the "DUAL CATEGORY VIEW", before I left yesterday. > > HOWARD > > > It seems to me that the dual-category view can be replaced in > either > > > of two alternative ways<...> #102546 From: han tun Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi hantun1 Dear Chew, Which part of Visuddhimagga? metta and respect, Han --- On Sat, 11/21/09, Sadhu Chew wrote: From: Sadhu Chew Subject: [dsg] Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 8:44 PM Dear Nina, Sarah, Han, Catubbidhaa hi suddhi desanaasuddhi, sam.varasuddhi, pariyet.t.hisuddhi, paccavekkhan. asuddhiiti. Tattha desanaasuddhi naama paatimokkhasam. varasiila& #7747;. Tañhi desanaaya sujjhanato desanaasuddhiiti vuccati. Purification is of four kinds: purification by the Teaching, purification by restraint, purification by search, and purification by reviewing. Herein, virtue of the Patimokkha restraint is called 'purification by the Teaching'; for that is so called because it purifies by means of teaching. Sayadaw U Silananda said in his talks, desanaa here means "Confession" , it is not "Teaching". I don't get it clearly. Can you elaborate it? Thanks and Sadhu. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #102547 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stasis? upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 11/21/2009 7:08:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ksheri3@... writes: Last nite while I was reading a Turiya I was still confronted by Howard's interesting concept of "consciousness being subserviant to thinking" thus a resultant phenomena. ============================== Please permit me a disclaimer. I don't believe I've said this, and I think the reverse is closer to the facts. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102548 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:58 am Subject: [dsg] DUTIYA DASABALASUTTAM Re: To Suan: Sammappadhaana kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > It would be fantastic if this could be a general guideline that all of us > here adopt. <. . .> ---------- Hi Herman, Thanks for your comments. I think everyone would like to have control over their speech and actions and always say and do the right thing. But even when there is right speech or right action there is no one who "has" it. There are just conditioned dhammas - the same as when there is wrong speech and wrong action. Makes you wonder why we bother, doesn't it? :-) Ken H (circumambulating in cyber space and not forgetting the jig) #102549 From: Herman Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Please fasten your seatbelts before take off" egberdina Hi colette (and Howard), 2009/11/21 colette > Hi Herman, > > Come on! > > > but there is no evidence that your mind exists either! > > > cotette: WHAT? > Yeah, outrageous, isn't it ? :-) > You are telling me that I should question the existance of my own mind? As > I have prepared a comment to you concerning you cognition that our > interaction has brought enlightenment to me only because I have told you > that you brought enlightenment to me, I cannot fathom the concept of me > actually telling my own mind that it does not exist while every other mind > exists and that my mind is nothing more than a computer relay terminal from > the main frame computer that rules the slaves that are addicted to the > status quo, to DOGMA. > > How can you tell me that my mind does not exist when my mind is internal to > me and your mind is external to me. How can, THEN, something external tell > me what is and is not INTERNAL to my own being? > Mind is no more than a collective noun. That means mind is part of language, not part of reality. Because mind is part of language, there can be thinking (which is just subliminal speech) mind all day long. Mind, it's just a word, an idea, a concept, a way of thinking about non-verbal things. But you'll never find a mind, and there's a good reason for that, namely cuz there ain't one there. > > THAT'S A WOPPER! > -------------------------- > > > There simply is no privileged access to anything called a mind, any mind. > > > colette: GREAT GAG-ZO0KS, evern HEAVENS TO MERGATROID. > > WHAT? > > Do you mean to suggest that I have to put in a request form to access my > own mind? > You, and your very own personal mind, are boundaries superimposed on the flow of experience. That flow is what there is, those particular boundaries are just some of what there isn't. Isn't it amazing, that there is so much that just isn't? That's emptyness for you :-) > > Whose mind is it? > Leading the witness, your honour. > > Pardon me, you must be suggesting that the Buddha was seriously doing drugs > when the Buddha dictated that Mind-Consiousness exists. You must be > attempting to gratify some drug dealer and some drug manufacturer for > producing the drugs that the Buddha was using to hallucinate this phantasm > of a MIND-C0NSIOUSNESS. > > <...> > __________________________________ > > What there is, well, mostly it's > > just thinking. > > colette: and just what does the thinking if not a mind? Leading the witness again. Colette, seriously, have you ever seen the eye seeing, have you ever heard the ear hearing? Then why invent a mind that thinks? As I said, mind is just a collective noun, a bucket into which one throws experiences of unknown origin, and then exclaim "the bucket did it" > So now you're telling me that the mind does exist and each and every person > has the ability to think through the mind which is their own. > > Okay, help me out. > > Which is it: > > Do sentient beings have a mind > > OR > > do sentient beings have a computer relay terminal? > Neither. There is sentience. And there is thinking about, explanations of, sentience. Ne'er the twain shall meet. Reality is not verbal in nature, it just does not conform to the idiom or syntax of any language. Cheers Herman #102550 From: "Mike" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:32 am Subject: Anatta and uncontrollability mikenz66 Dear DSG, I keep seeing the argument that "because of anatta there is no control". Can someone please explain this? I'm afraid that the logic is beyond me. Perhaps I can give an example. A computer-controlled vehicle has no self but does have some control of trajectory... Metta Mike #102551 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi chewsadhu Dear Han, It is at N~aanamoli version I,126. Or, PTS 44. Thanks and Sadhu. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Chew, > > Which part of Visuddhimagga? > > metta and respect, > Han > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, Sadhu Chew wrote: > > > From: Sadhu Chew > Subject: [dsg] Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 8:44 PM > > > > > > > Dear Nina, Sarah, Han, > > Catubbidhaa hi suddhi desanaasuddhi, sam.varasuddhi, pariyet.t.hisuddhi, paccavekkhan. asuddhiiti. Tattha desanaasuddhi naama paatimokkhasam. varasiila& #7747;. Tañhi desanaaya sujjhanato desanaasuddhiiti vuccati. > > Purification is of four kinds: purification by the Teaching, purification by restraint, purification by search, and purification by reviewing. Herein, virtue of the Patimokkha restraint is called 'purification by the Teaching'; for that is so called because it purifies by means of teaching. > > Sayadaw U Silananda said in his talks, desanaa here means "Confession" , it is not "Teaching". I don't get it clearly. Can you elaborate it? > > Thanks and Sadhu. > > May all beings be well and happy. > > With respect, > Chew > > #102552 From: han tun Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi hantun1 Dear Chew, Chew: Sayadaw U Silananda said in his talks, desanaa here means "Confession", it is not "Teaching". I don't get it clearly. Can you elaborate it? Han: I have checked with the Burmese translation by Mahasi Sayadaw. Sayadaw wrote that for the monks, confessing their offense is purification by the teaching (desanaasuddhi). This is called the Paatimokkha-sa.mvara-siila (tattha desanaasuddhi naama paatimokkhasa.mvarasiila) or the 'purification by the Teaching' in the case of the monks. Does it make sense? with respect, Han #102553 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:01 am Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability kenhowardau Hi Mike, I hope everyone will have a go at this question. --------------- M: > I keep seeing the argument that "because of anatta there is no control". Can someone please explain this? I'm afraid that the logic is beyond me. ---------------- Because of anatta there are only dhammas. Does that answer your question? :-) --------------- M: > Perhaps I can give an example. A computer-controlled vehicle has no self but does have some control of trajectory... --------------- Sorry, but you have got that wrong: a computer-controlled vehicle does *not* have no self. It does not bear the anatta characteristic. A computer controlled vehicle, being something other than a dhamma, is atta. Therefore, when you are talking about the (ultimately illusory) kind of world that includes people and vehicles etc., you cannot say "there is no control." It is only in *reality* that there is no self and, therefore, no control. Ken H #102554 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:19 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 13. nilovg Dear friends, As we have seen, there is a great variety of cittas. All cittas have in common that they cognize an object, but cittas are different as they are accompanied by different mental factors and experience different objects. Seeing always experiences visible object and hearing always experiences sound, but the reactions towards the objects and the thoughts about them vary for different people. When someone else, for example, speaks harsh words, there is the hearing of sound, and afterwards there is thinking of the meaning of the words, thinking of the person who speaks, thinking of conventional realities. Each person lives in his own world of thinking. We react to what is experienced not only with our thoughts, but also with action and speech. At the moments we do not perform good deeds or we do not develop understanding, we think, act and speak with akusala cittas. Citta determines our behaviour, citta is called in the scriptures the leader of the world. We read in the Kindred Sayings (I, Sagth-vagga, Chapter I, The Devas, Part 7, 2, Citta), the following verse: Now what is that whereby the world is led? And what is that whereby it is drawn along? And what is that above all other things That brings everything beneath its sway? It is citta whereby the world is led, And by citta it is drawn along, And citta it is above all other things That brings everything beneath its sway. _______ Nina. #102555 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- On Thu, 19/11/09, Herman wrote: > >H: There are clearly, if all of our behaviour is a guide, rupas that know,and rupas that don't know. > > >What do you think? > ... > S: Not so. It is the thinking and other kinds of experiencing which "know". > Citta is the 'leader' in experiencing, in knowing. The sounds (of the > waterfall or the person) don't know anything. > **** H:> Still, all you know of Jon is what you see, hear, smell of him etc, just like all you know of the stove. Yet you do no engage the stove in conversation, but you do Jon. When you hear "Sarah, I want my dinner now. And don't forget the tomato sauce" :-) .... [S: That sounds most unlike Jon! :-))] ... > you turn to, you advert, you attend to Jon, because you understand what you sense of him to be sentient, and whatever you sense of anything else in your apartment not to be sentient in that way. ... S: There is the seeing and hearing of different objects and on account of the visible objects and sounds experienced, we conceptualise in different ways. The sound of the waterfall is not the same as the sound of Jon's voice. If we're in a room of people and Jon coughs, I recognise it as his cough because the sounds are different from someone else's cough. Actually, it's just sound heard, but each sound is distinct, with its particular characteristic. The same applies to visible objects - even though it's just visible object, each v.o. is marked by sanna and there's very little chance of thereby confusing the stove with Jon:). No visible objects or sounds experience anything, however. Just rupas arising and falling away. This is an intricate topic, so feel free to pursue it. ... >My interest is in what people do, not in what they say they believe :-) I sincerely hope that is not a harsh thing to say. ... S: It doesn't sound at all harsh, but I think it's an unhelpful approach. For example, we might dwell on some past unwholesome deed that someone performed and not appreciate their present wholesome qualities. In that case, the reality is just our present akusala citta isn't it? Isn't it more helpful to let the past go, not dwelling on someone's deeds, but to listen and share helpful reminders in the present? Perhaps I've misunderstood you. Metta Sarah ====== #102556 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. sarahprocter... Dear Azita, Nina, Han & all, --- On Sat, 21/11/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Azita, please tell us more, so that we can appreciate and learn, ... S: perhaps when she has time, Azita will collect and send us the various short dhamma quotes and comments she's been forwarding to Jill. I thought of Jill when I read these quotes from the Rupa series which Han gave in #102258, but I'll leave to Azita to decide whether to f/w them to Jill or not as she has more idea of what Jill will appreciate at this time. It takes courage to really accept the truth of the Dhamma: >The "Atthasaalinii" (II, Book II, Part I, Ch II, 329) compares birth, decay and death to three enemies, of whom the first leads someone into the forest, the second throws him down and the third cuts off his head. We read: "... For birth is like the enemy who draws him to enter the forest; because he has come to birth in this or that place. Decay is like the enemy who strikes and fells him to earth when he has reached the forest, because the aggregates (khandhas) produced are weak, dependent on others, lying down on a couch. Death is like the enemy who with a sword cuts off the head of him when he is fallen to the ground, because the aggregates having attained decay, have come to destruction of life."< **** >We read in the "Dghanakhasutta" (Middle Length Sayings II, no. 74) that the Buddha reminded Dghanakha that the body is susceptible to decay, impermanent and not self: "But this body, Aggivessana, which has material shape, is made up of the four great elements, originating from mother and father, nourished on gruel and sour milk, of a nature to be constantly rubbed away, pounded away, broken up and scattered, should be regarded as impermanent, suffering, as a disease, a tumour, a dart, a misfortune, an affliction, as other, as decay, empty, not-self. When he regards this body as impermanent, suffering, as a disease, a tumour, a dart, a misfortune, an affliction, as other, as decay, empty, not-self, whatever in regard to body is desire for body, affection for body, subordination to body, this is got rid of."< Metta Sarah ======== #102557 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal instructions in VsM sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Mon, 16/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: >sila-visuddhi and citta-visuddhi. >It is like trying to build a house without digging the Earth and bringing material, but with lots of planning, considering and reading. ... S: No, it's all about the development of right understanding, pa~n~naa. The development of satipa.t.thaana is required for all levels of visuddhi, including siila and citta visuddhi. From "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas", ch 31, by A.Sujin, translated by Nina: "Different Kinds of Purity Pa~n~naa developed in satipa.t.thaana becomes keener and purer as successive stages of vipassanaa are reached. In the development of satipa.t.thaana there are different kinds of purity, visuddhi, and these can be classified as ninefold. The first purity is purity of siila, siila visuddhi. Siila arising together with satipa.t.thaana that is aware of the characteristics of naama and ruupa is siila visuddhi. At that moment there is purification from ignorance about the characteristics of paramattha dhammas that are non-self. When satipa.t.thaana does not arise, one is bound to take siila for self, and thus, sla is not siila visuddhi. The second purity is purity of citta, citta visuddhi. This is actually different degrees of samaadhi, concentration, arising while sati is aware of the characteristics of naama and ruupa. Or, when jhaanacitta is the object of satipa.t.thaana, jhaanacitta is citta visuddhi. At that moment one does not take jhaanacitta for self. The third purity is purity of view, di.t.thi visuddhi. This is the stage of insight that is naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naa~na, the pa~n~naa that clearly discerns the difference between the characteristics of naama and ruupa. At that moment one does not take any reality, including the insight knowledge, for self. There is purity of view, di.t.thi visuddhi, because there was never before such clear realization of the different characteristics of naama and ruupa as non-self." S: You can also read more about the visuddhis in C.M.A. and other texts. The entire Visuddhimagga is about the development of visuddhi, the development of satipa.t.thaana and the eradication of defilements, in other words, the realisation of the 4 Noble Truths. Metta Sarah ========= #102558 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 8. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, This sutta is a good reminder for us all: --- On Mon, 16/11/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Affection conditions fear of loss, > aversion and > sadness. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Part VIII, > Kindred > Sayings about Headmen, §11) that the Buddha, while staying > at > Uruvelakappa, explained to the headman Bhadragaka that > clinging is > the cause of dukkha. We read that Bhadragaka said: > > “Wonderful, lord! Strange it is, lord, how well said is > this saying > of the Exalted One: ‘Whatsoever dukkha arising comes upon > me,—all > that is rooted in desire. Desire is indeed the root of > dukkha.’ > Now, lord, there is my boy,—Ciravåsi is his name. He > lodges away from > here. At the time of rising up, lord, I send off a man, > saying: ‘Go, > my man, inquire of Ciravåsi.’ Then, lord, till that man > comes back > again, I am in an anxious state, fearing lest some sickness > may have > befallen Ciravåsi.” > “Now, what do you think, headman? Would sorrow and grief, > woe, > lamentation and despair come upon you if your boy Ciravåsi > were slain > or imprisoned or had loss or blame?” > “Lord, if such were to befall my boy Ciravåsi, how > should I not have > sorrow and grief, woe, lamentation and despair?” > “But, headman, you must regard it in this manner: > ‘Whatsoever dukkha > arising comes upon me,—all that is rooted in desire, is > joined to > desire. Desire is indeed the root of dukkha.’ ” ... S: Attachment, affection, clinging - conditions all kinds of worry, anxiety, sorrow and grief. "Desire is indeed the root of dukkha". Metta Sarah ========== #102559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal instructions in VsM nilovg Dear Icaro, Op 20-nov-2009, om 21:22 heeft Icaro het volgende geschreven: > I am smiling until now! ------ N: I am glad you keep your good mood. Meanwhile you must have discovered that only arahats can have hasituppada citta, no ordinary beings like you and I. Nina. #102560 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling nilovg Hi Howard, Op 20-nov-2009, om 22:04 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Contact and feeling MIGHT be simultaneous, but my bet > would be that contact (immediately) precedes feeling. > In any case, I still seek a sutta that states the simultaneity. If one > is shown to me, I will tend to believe the co-occurrence. ------- N: As Alex said, phassa, contact is mental, it is not mere physical concussion. There are seven cetasikas that accompany each citta, called the universals: contact, feeling, remembrance (sa~n~naa), volition, concentration, vitality and attention (manasikaara). They arise together with citta at the same physical base, they experience the same object as citta and they fall away together with citta. They each perform their own function while they arise with citta. ------- H: If feeling is a mental operation that affectively "tastes" an object, as is the Abhidhammic perspective (which I tend to accept), then it would either have to be doing the tasting while the object is present or would have to apply to a fresh memory (or sign) of the object. In case it applies to the sign, then the feeling occurs after the contact. In case it applies to the object directly, when the object is a rupa which lasts during up to 17 mind states (according to Abhidhamma or commentaries - I'm not sure which), it could still certainly occur after the contact, and that actually seems more likely than at the exact moment of contact. I still am very curious to know what if anything is said about this simultaneity issue in suttas. ----------- N: Citta and its accompanying cetasikas fall away immediately and when citta arises in a mind-door process, it is another moment, accompanied again by cetasikas performing their functions. The preceding citta and cetasikas have all gone, no more. You want a sutta to confirm all this. A sutta was quoted here that there is nothing more quick in changing than citta. When we say citta, always the accompanying cetasikas are implied. Citta does not arise without cetasikas. Remember: vi~n~naa.na and naama/ruupa are mutually dependent. Naama stands here for cetasikas. Nina. #102561 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself sarahprocter... Dear pt (& Nina), --- On Thu, 19/11/09, ptaus1 wrote: >> N: Space in the ear is a condition for hearing. >pt: What is your understanding why a medium is not cited as a condition for hearing? As mentioned, sound as a natural phenomenon cannot exist without a medium like air, water, etc. ... S: Why not the open space as the "medium" not just in the ear but usually outside as well? For example, if there were a high thick wall surrounding the waterfall, the sound wouldn't be heard even if we were nearby in the forest. Without the wall or other block, given the space, ear-sense and sound, there may be conditions for hearing to arise and experience the sound, depending on kamma, of course. But I also think it is the space in the ear itself that is the essential condition for sound to be heard. Just thinking out loud... Metta Sarah ========== #102562 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Dear pt, Op 21-nov-2009, om 4:05 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Or the characteristic of pleasantness is simply brought about by > vipaka condition, and has nothing to do with what is being seen at > the moment of seeing consciousness (which is nothing specific at > that moment as yet, since there are no definite objects like gold > or dung singled out yet)? ------ N: Yes, it is brought about by kamma-condition. Seeing just sees and does not know whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant. We usually think about it afterwards. ----- Nina. #102563 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:49 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi chewsadhu Dear Han, I really appreciate your information from Burmese translation by Mahasi Sayadaw. I will add this information into my personal notes of my Visuddhimagga study. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! Here, I have transcribed part of the talks, as below: Source: {04a-visuddhimagga02.mp3} (pp.40, para.109 pp.42, para.122) http://cid-191c707d873e5f29.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Visuddhimagga/04a-visudd\ himagga02.mp3 Contents: .... First, purification by the Teaching. The word Teaching is not correct here. There are two English translations of Visuddhimagga. One was made by a Burmese gentleman. And the other by N~anamoli. But both of them did not get the right translation here. The pali word here is Desana. And the word Desana generally mean a summon, a teaching, or a preaching. But here, Desana is used in technical sense in Vinaya. And desana in Vinaya means revealing one's offence, or confession. So, purification by confession. When a monk has broken a rule or more rules, he has to confess it to another monk. When he has confessed, then he gets free from the offence of breaking that rule. So, there is a kind of sila, which is called purification by confession. Just by confession, one can get rid of the offence. These are minor rules in the Patimokkha. Like cutting a tree. Monks are not allowed to cut tree. If a monk cuts tree, or plucks a flower or fruit. It becomes a minor offence. In order to get free from that minor offence. He just has to confess it to another monk........ [end] Do you think that it is good to use Purification by the Confession in my notes, instead of Purification by the Teaching? Thanks and Sadhu. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Chew, > > Chew: Sayadaw U Silananda said in his talks, desanaa here means "Confession", it is not "Teaching". I don't get it clearly. Can you elaborate it? > > Han: I have checked with the Burmese translation by Mahasi Sayadaw. > Sayadaw wrote that for the monks, confessing their offense is purification by the teaching (desanaasuddhi). This is called the Paatimokkha-sa.mvara-siila (tattha desanaasuddhi naama paatimokkhasa.mvarasiila) or the 'purification by the Teaching' in the case of the monks. > > Does it make sense? > > with respect, > Han > #102564 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (71) nilovg Dear pt, Op 21-nov-2009, om 4:23 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > I was wondering - ruupa kalaapas comprising water would have much > more of the water element than earth element, compared to dirt for > example, which would have more earth element than water element, > right? > > How about seeing versus smelling? If we see a patch of dirt, does > that mean that that particular kalaapa that's in contact with our > eyes has more color ruupa, while the one that comes in contact with > our nose in some next moment has more odour than color? -------- N: All these things are hard to tell, because it is thinking about stories. I learnt that realities will be more clearly understood when there is right understanding of the characteristic of reality that appears now. It is actually the same when we think in terms of science. The purpose of the Dhamma is detachment and this can only be realized in attending to the characteristics of realities that appear. We still need to be in samsara for such a long, long time in order to have more understanding of naama and ruupa, and therefore, is it of any use to think about the Dhamma in terms of science? This may distract us from the real purpose of the Dhamma. -------- Nina. #102565 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Op 20-nov-2009, om 22:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The object of seeing consciousness is thus either > pleasant or unpleasant! I understand that the seeing consciousness > itself > is neither wholesome nor unwholesome, because it is a result - of > course. > That has no bearing on what I have written to you on this thread. > My point > was that the object of seeing consciousness being pleasant or > unpleasant is > incompatible with it the feeling of it being indifferent! --------- N: Let me give you another example: now about the javanacittas. Say, they experience with attachment a pleasant object. The feeling can either be pleasant or indifferent. Even indifferent feeling can taste a pleasant object. -------- H: I don't have any idea of what it means for an object to "be pleasant" other than to be felt as pleasant. Pleasantness independent of vedana is nonsense to me. ------ N: Kamma conditions the experience of a pleasant object or unpleasant object. Nina. #102566 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Hi Howard, sorry, I forgot to address you in my post to you. Nina. Op 20-nov-2009, om 22:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The object of seeing consciousness is thus either > pleasant or unpleasant! #102567 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself nilovg Dear pt, Op 21-nov-2009, om 4:45 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > The bottom line being that without a medium, sound would not be > possible, and, dependent on the medium, sound would have different > properties. ------ N: Thank you for explaining medium. Ken O answered your question with a quote from the Expositor. Nina. #102571 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:55 am Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability gazita2002 halllo KenH and Mike > --------------- > M: > I keep seeing the argument that "because of anatta there is no > control". Can someone please explain this? I'm afraid that the logic is > beyond me. > ---------------- > > > Because of anatta there are only dhammas. > > Does that answer your question? :-) azita: I would put this the other way round: bec there are only dhammas which are impermanent therefore no self can be found in these impermanent dhammas. > --------------- > M: > Perhaps I can give an example. A computer-controlled vehicle has no > self but does have some control of trajectory... > --------------- > > Sorry, but you have got that wrong: a computer-controlled vehicle does > *not* have no self. It does not bear the anatta characteristic. A > computer controlled vehicle, being something other than a dhamma, is > atta. > > Therefore, when you are talking about the (ultimately illusory) kind of > world that includes people and vehicles etc., you cannot say "there is > no control." > > It is only in *reality* that there is no self and, therefore, no > control. > > Ken H > azita: yes, realities being impermanent, therefore unsatisfactory and uncontrollable and no self - meaning 'myself,' can be found. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #102572 From: han tun Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi hantun1 Dear Chew, I have made some minor suggestions below. But please feel free to ignore them. First, purification by the Teaching. [The word Teaching is not correct here.] Han: may omit this sentence. There are two English translations of [Teaching] in Visuddhimagga. One was made by a Burmese gentleman. And the other by N~anamoli. [But both of them did not get the right translation here.] Han: may omit this line. The pali word here is Desana. And the word Desana generally mean a summon, a teaching, or a preaching. But here, Desana is used in technical sense in Vinaya. And desana in Vinaya means revealing one's offence [aapatti], or confession. So, purification by confession. When a monk has broken a rule or more rules, he has to confess it to another monk. When he has confessed, then he gets free from the offence of breaking that rule. So, there is a kind of sila, which is called purification by confession. Just by confession, one can get rid of the offence. These are minor rules in the Patimokkha. Like cutting a tree. Monks are not allowed to cut tree. If a monk cuts tree, or plucks a flower or fruit. It becomes a minor offence. In order to get free from that minor offence. He just has to confess it to another monk........ Note: aapatti: [f.] an ecclesiastical offence. desanaa: (page 330 of PTS Dictionary) Freq. in dhamma desanaa: moral instruction, exposition of the Dhamma, preaching, sermon Vin i.16; A i.53; ii.182; iv.337 sq.; It 33; J i.106 etc. (a desanaa gaaminii aapatti), a Paaraajika or Sanghaadisesa offence Vin ii.3, 87; v.187. Cp. Vin. Texts ii.33. -- 3. (legal) acknowledgment Miln 344. with metta and respect, Han #102573 From: "Icaro" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Formal instructions in VsM icarofranca Hi Nina! > ------ > N: I am glad you keep your good mood. Oh yes! Its not so difficult keep good mood! > Meanwhile you must have > discovered that only arahats can have hasituppada citta, no ordinary > beings like you and I. No, Nina...I am not a particular adept of Discovery Channel, but I must remark that Hasituppada Citta (being rootless), is also a constitutional note of Buddhas and Paccekabuddhas: does B.B. consider them as modes of Arahatship ? At this basis you could consider also Tissae and the usual hindu bhagavam as the same level as Buddha...well, both the Vism and the Dhammasangani have also notes about Hasituppada Citta, but I didnt manage to find it in these books: some clarification about how I could find it in these texts is welcome! Mettaya, Icaro #102574 From: "Icaro" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (71) icarofranca Hi again, Nina! > We still > need to be in samsara for such a long, long time in order to have > more understanding of naama and ruupa, and therefore, is it of any > use to think about the Dhamma in terms of science? This may distract > us from the real purpose of the Dhamma. > -------- It will depend of what definition of "science" one uses. In popular lore, the "scientist" is a man very occuped with calculations or making scientific things. The first hasnt really any deal with Dhamma ( if you consider numbers as a flow of nama and rupa...perhaps)and the second, dealing with nama-rupa at a material basis, delivers a basis to rooted consciousness anyway. Your booklet "The Buddhistic Teaching on Physical Phenomena" expands this ideas in series of good notions about how nama and rupa can comprise a fine understanding about Science... as you can see, I am not a very heartly Discovery Channel fan! ^_^ Mettaya (and a lot of smiles!) Icaro #102575 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi chewsadhu Dear Han, That's great. Your suggestion is very useful to me. I will put this into my notes. Thanks and Sadhu again. May you be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Chew, > > I have made some minor suggestions below. > But please feel free to ignore them. > > First, purification by the Teaching. > #102576 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta and uncontrollability upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/22/2009 4:03:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Mike, I hope everyone will have a go at this question. --------------- M: > I keep seeing the argument that "because of anatta there is no control". Can someone please explain this? I'm afraid that the logic is beyond me. ---------------- Because of anatta there are only dhammas. Does that answer your question? :-) --------------- M: > Perhaps I can give an example. A computer-controlled vehicle has no self but does have some control of trajectory... --------------- Sorry, but you have got that wrong: a computer-controlled vehicle does *not* have no self. It does not bear the anatta characteristic. A computer controlled vehicle, being something other than a dhamma, is atta. ---------------------------------------------- Ken, what *are* you talking about!? A computer-controlled vehicle is either an aggregate of rupas or is a concept or is nothing at all, but it is NOT "self" or "a self." You are speaking of a mere thought construct as if it were an entity. A mere thought construct lacks even contingent existence, let alone self! --------------------------------------------- Therefore, when you are talking about the (ultimately illusory) kind of world that includes people and vehicles etc., you cannot say "there is no control." It is only in *reality* that there is no self and, therefore, no control. Ken H =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous #102577 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/22/2009 5:49:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 20-nov-2009, om 22:04 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Contact and feeling MIGHT be simultaneous, but my bet > would be that contact (immediately) precedes feeling. > In any case, I still seek a sutta that states the simultaneity. If one > is shown to me, I will tend to believe the co-occurrence. ------- N: As Alex said, phassa, contact is mental, it is not mere physical concussion. ---------------------------------------------------- I'm well aware that it is a convention to catagorize phassa as mental. (As an aside, though, what it is is an event, the co-arising or coming together of three phenomena, and in 5 out of 6 cases, mind-door contact being the exception, two of the three phenomena are physical.) --------------------------------------------------- There are seven cetasikas that accompany each citta, called the universals: contact, feeling, remembrance (sa~n~naa), volition, concentration, vitality and attention (manasikaara). They arise together with citta at the same physical base, they experience the same object as citta and they fall away together with citta. They each perform their own function while they arise with citta. ----------------------------------------------------- Yes, that's the story. Included in that story is that contact and feeling arise together. To recite the story, however, is not to give sutta evidence of the coinciding of contact and feeling, which is what I am requesting. ---------------------------------------------------- ------- H: If feeling is a mental operation that affectively "tastes" an object, as is the Abhidhammic perspective (which I tend to accept), then it would either have to be doing the tasting while the object is present or would have to apply to a fresh memory (or sign) of the object. In case it applies to the sign, then the feeling occurs after the contact. In case it applies to the object directly, when the object is a rupa which lasts during up to 17 mind states (according to Abhidhamma or commentaries - I'm not sure which), it could still certainly occur after the contact, and that actually seems more likely than at the exact moment of contact. I still am very curious to know what if anything is said about this simultaneity issue in suttas. ----------- N: Citta and its accompanying cetasikas fall away immediately and when citta arises in a mind-door process, it is another moment, accompanied again by cetasikas performing their functions. ------------------------------------------------------ You are providing a litany, Nina, but not a sutta. ------------------------------------------------------ The preceding citta and cetasikas have all gone, no more. ------------------------------------------------------- I've made the very same sort of disclaimer many times with regard to taking a citta or cetasika as object of consciousness, and I've always been told about the citta or cetasika "having just passed"! So, the argument you have repeatedly given in that context can work quite as well here, as regards mind-door contact. And as regards 5-sense-door contact, i.e., rupic contact, I already addressed that above. The bottom line is that it is just as plausible for feeling to follow contact as for them to co-occur. The question remainsas to what the Buddha taught about this in the suttas. ------------------------------------------------------- You want a sutta to confirm all this. A sutta was quoted here that there is nothing more quick in changing than citta. ------------------------------------------------------ I'm familiar wit that sutta. It isn't relevant to the matter. ----------------------------------------------------- When we say citta, always the accompanying cetasikas are implied. ----------------------------------------------------- You are again reciting Abhidhammic orthodoxy. I requested a sutta. If there isn't any, it's okay to say so. ------------------------------------------------------ Citta does not arise without cetasikas. ------------------------------------------------------ Feeling could follow contact. It can do so in a subsequent mind state in which the just-passed state is object. (That still provides for your belief that there must always be an object of consciousness.) ------------------------------------------------------ Remember: vi~n~naa.na and naama/ruupa are mutually dependent. Naama stands here for cetasikas. ----------------------------------------------------- Vi~n~nana and its object (always nama or rupa or thought-projection) are mutually dependent - yes. That does NOT, however, imply the simultaneity of contact and feeling. -------------------------------------------------- Nina. =============================== With metta, Howard P. S. Logically, contact and feeling *could* co-occur or not. I would like a sutta reference that decides between these. If none is available, so be it. Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102578 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ----------------------------------------------------- > Yes, that's the story. Included in that story is that contact and > feeling arise together. To recite the story, however, is not to give sutta > evidence of the coinciding of contact and feeling, which is what I am > requesting. > ---------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------ > You are providing a litany, Nina, but not a sutta. > ------------------------------------------------------ Hi Howard, Nina, all Sutta is MN43 ""Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."" "For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling." - MN148 [same with all 6 senses] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html Since consciousness & feeling "are conjoined" and condition for feeling is contact, it means that "consciousness, contact, feeling, perception" happen together. With metta, Alex #102579 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta and uncontrollability szmicio Dear Howard, Mike and all, Theras said very simple: if we not understand Dhamma after short explanation, we need to listen Dhamma in detailed way. It really works or not ;> it does not metter! No need to worry for anything. No expectations an so on. ;> > Therefore, when you are talking about the (ultimately illusory) kind of > world that includes people and vehicles etc., you cannot say "there is > no control." > > It is only in *reality* that there is no self and, therefore, no > control. L: Howard, no need to think of conventional truth and ultimate truth, this is the same. There is only explanation of Dhamma in a short and in detailed way. Even now in conventional sense, that you like to stress so much, there is no control. Everything that arises, is gone now. The reality is anatta anicca and dukkha. Why you need to control this? There cannot be happiness with control. Hearing dhamma can be a condition to right understanding and for development of all kinds of kusala. I can give you an example. I ve got a situation. We've got a quarell with my uncle. He said angry words. And then the kind of wise reflection arise and I realised no need to fight back, just leave it. And after few seconds we get back to a nice discussion. Sometimes it's good to leave it all, and then forget. That was not me who was refraining from bad speach, it was conditioned dhamma, that has nothing in common with taking something and putting it somewhere ;> really. Listening and hearing Dhamma is foremost. It really can condition kusala. And when we belive sati is like this and that, we surely need to listen dhamma in more detailed way. Take a rest, no resting with control. Belive me. This refraings when we take them for ourselfs, there is so much misery. They are not ours, they arise and fall away. After we shaked ours hands with uncle I have some thought of how this is out of control. I can understand how this angers appears and how influanced us, How thinking get's control over this whole process. How this is out of control. I then felt metta. I cannot control this myself. My uncle also, just metta. No self anywhere. Then I get anger again of some other things ;> As usuall ;> The object, the dosa now with its own characteristic. best wishes Lukas p.s I hope it can help anyone #102580 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:16 pm Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability scottduncan2 Dear Mike, Regarding: M: "I keep seeing the argument that 'because of anatta there is no control'. Can someone please explain this? I'm afraid that the logic is beyond me..." Scott: Sammohavinodanii (The Dispeller of Delusion, commentary to the Viba"nga, p. 57, p. 60): "233. But [the eye] is no-self (anattaa) in the sense of powerlessness. Or because there is no exercise of power in these three instances, [namely,] 'this being arisen, let it not reach presence; having reached presence, let it not grow old; having grown old, let it not break up'; and it is void of this quality of having power exercised over it (vasavattana). Therefore it is no-self for these four reasons,, [namely,] because it is void, because it has no owner, because of not behaving as desired (akaamakaariya) [and] because of exclusion of self." "247. But those same five aggregates are no-self because of the words 'what is painful is no-self' (S iv 1). Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self." Sincerely, Scott. #102581 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Formal instructions in VsM truth_aerator Hi Sarah, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Mon, 16/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >sila-visuddhi and citta-visuddhi. > > >It is like trying to build a house without digging the Earth and bringing material, but with lots of planning, considering and reading. > ... > S: No, it's all about the development of right understanding, pa~n~naa. The development of satipa.t.thaana is required for all levels of visuddhi, including siila and citta visuddhi. > > From "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas", ch 31, by A.Sujin, translated by Nina: > > "Different Kinds of Purity > > Pa~n~naa developed in satipa.t.thaana becomes keener and purer as successive stages of vipassanaa are reached. In the development of satipa.t.thaana there are different kinds of purity, visuddhi, and these can be classified as ninefold. > > The first purity is purity of siila, siila visuddhi. Siila arising together with satipa.t.thaana that is aware of the characteristics of naama and ruupa is siila visuddhi. At that moment there is purification from ignorance about the characteristics of paramattha dhammas that are non-self. When satipa.t.thaana does not arise, one is bound to take siila for self, and thus, sla is not siila visuddhi. > > The second purity is purity of citta, citta visuddhi. This is actually different degrees of samaadhi, concentration, arising while sati is aware of the characteristics of naama and ruupa. Or, when jhaanacitta is the object of satipa.t.thaana, jhaanacitta is citta visuddhi. At that moment one does not take jhaanacitta for self. > > The third purity is purity of view, di.t.thi visuddhi. This is the stage of insight that is naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naa~na, the pa~n~naa that clearly discerns the difference between the characteristics of naama and ruupa. At that moment one does not take any reality, including the insight knowledge, for self. There is purity of view, di.t.thi visuddhi, because there was never before such clear realization of the different characteristics of naama and ruupa as non-self." > > S: You can also read more about the visuddhis in C.M.A. and other texts. The entire Visuddhimagga is about the development of visuddhi, the development of satipa.t.thaana and the eradication of defilements, in other words, the realisation of the 4 Noble Truths. > > Metta > > Sarah > ========= > Thank you for your reply. On the insight stages, I am making notes for myself ~ have made a 78 page guide for myself. But in any case, even if we focus on suttamaya panna - the more we study with quantity & quality the better. "What is 'development as repetition'? Here a practitioner practices repetition in the morning, repetition at noon, repetition in the evening, repetition before eating, repetition after eating, repetition in the first watch, repetition in the middle watch, repetition in the last watch, repetition by night, repetition by day, repetition by night and day, repetition in the dark half of the moon, repetition in the bright half of the moon, repetition in the rainy season, repetition in the cool season, repetition in the hot season, repetition in the first phase of life, repetition in the middle phase of life, repetition in the last phase of life. This is development as repetition. " Ptsm With metta, Alex #102584 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling nilovg Hi Howard and Alex, Howard, Alex provided a sutta. This settles it? Op 22-nov-2009, om 16:49 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Logically, contact and feeling *could* co-occur or not. I would like > a sutta reference that decides between these. If none is available, > so be > it. ------- Alex: Sutta is MN43 ""Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."" "For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling." - MN148 [same with all 6 senses] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html Since consciousness & feeling "are conjoined" and condition for feeling is contact, it means that "consciousness, contact, feeling, perception" happen together. ------ Nina. #102585 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:10 pm Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Mike, > > Regarding: > > M: "I keep seeing the argument that 'because of anatta there is no control'. Can someone please explain this? I'm afraid that the logic is beyond me..." > > Scott: Sammohavinodanii (The Dispeller of Delusion, commentary to the Viba"nga, p. 57, p. 60): > > "233. But [the eye] is no-self (anattaa) in the sense of powerlessness. Or because there is no exercise of power in these three instances, [namely,] 'this being arisen, let it not reach presence; having reached presence, let it not grow old; having grown old, let it not break up'; and it is void of this quality of having power exercised over it (vasavattana). Therefore it is no-self for these four reasons,, [namely,] because it is void, because it has no owner, because of not behaving as desired (akaamakaariya) [and] because of exclusion of self." > > "247. But those same five aggregates are no-self because of the words 'what is painful is no-self' (S iv 1). Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self." > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Dear Scott, Mike, Sarah, Jon, Nina, all But is there possibility for exertion and for cultivating the wholesome qualities? Precisely because there is anatta, it is possible to exert and develop wholesome qualities. With metta, Alex #102586 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta and uncontrollability nilovg Dear Lukas, that is a very good example from daily life, and I find it very helpful. A good reminder; it is not me, not me!!! Nina. Op 22-nov-2009, om 18:37 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Hearing dhamma can be a condition to right understanding and for > development of all kinds of kusala. > I can give you an example. I ve got a situation. We've got a > quarell with my uncle. He said angry words. > And then the kind of wise reflection arise and I realised no need > to fight back, just leave it. And after few seconds we get back to > a nice discussion. Sometimes it's good to leave it all, and then > forget. That was not me who was refraining from bad speach, it was > conditioned dhamma, that has nothing in common with taking > something and putting it somewhere ;> really. #102587 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal instructions in VsM nilovg Dear Alex, Yes, I know the text from Patisambhidhamagga and I like this reminder. Being aware over and over again, not being forgetful. Nina. Op 22-nov-2009, om 19:45 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > "What is 'development as repetition'? Here a practitioner practices > repetition in the morning, repetition at noon, repetition in the > evening, repetition before eating, repetition after eating, > repetition in the first watch, repetition in the middle watch, > repetition in the last watch, repetition by night, repetition by > day, repetition by night and day, repetition in the dark half of > the moon, repetition in the bright half of the moon, repetition in > the rainy season, repetition in the cool season, repetition in the > hot season, repetition in the first phase of life, repetition in > the middle phase of life, repetition in the last phase of life. > This is development as repetition. " Ptsm #102588 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta and uncontrollability nilovg Dear Alex, Op 22-nov-2009, om 20:10 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > But is there possibility for exertion and for cultivating the > wholesome qualities? > > Precisely because there is anatta, it is possible to exert and > develop wholesome qualities. ------ N: Yes, true. Nina. #102589 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/22/2009 6:08:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Op 20-nov-2009, om 22:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The object of seeing consciousness is thus either > pleasant or unpleasant! I understand that the seeing consciousness > itself > is neither wholesome nor unwholesome, because it is a result - of > course. > That has no bearing on what I have written to you on this thread. > My point > was that the object of seeing consciousness being pleasant or > unpleasant is > incompatible with it the feeling of it being indifferent! --------- N: Let me give you another example: now about the javanacittas. Say, they experience with attachment a pleasant object. The feeling can either be pleasant or indifferent. Even indifferent feeling can taste a pleasant object. -------- H: I don't have any idea of what it means for an object to "be pleasant" other than to be felt as pleasant. Pleasantness independent of vedana is nonsense to me. ------ N: Kamma conditions the experience of a pleasant object or unpleasant object. ---------------------------------------------- That I don't doubt. Nonetheless, to be pleasant means to be felt as pleasant. A sight, ANY sight, is neutral and is felt as neutral. When perception and thinking then carve out "things" from that "scene," THEY might be pleasant or unpleasant, i.e., felt as pleasant or unpleasant. -------------------------------------------- Nina ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102590 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/22/2009 6:14:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, sorry, I forgot to address you in my post to you. Nina. ================================ I didn't even notice, Nina. But now that you have pointed that out ... NOW I'm first angry!!!! LOLOL! With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102591 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal instructions in VsM nilovg Dear Icaro, Op 22-nov-2009, om 12:18 heeft Icaro het volgende geschreven: > both the Vism and the Dhammasangani has also notes about > Hasituppada Citta, but I didnt manage to find it in these books: > some clarification about how I could find it in these texts is > welcome! ----------- Vis. Ch IV, 108 and Tiika. 108. But the 'mind-consciousness-element' is of two kinds, namely, shared by all and not shared by all. [457] Herein, (71) that 'shared by all' is the functional [mind-consciousness-element] accompanied by equanimity without root-cause. It has the characteristic of cognizing the six kinds of objects. Its function is to determine at the five doors and to advert at the mind door. --------- Vis. text: So the sense-sphere functional without root-cause is of three kinds. N: Namely: the five sense-door adverting-consciousness, the mind-door adverting-consciousness (performing two functions: determining, vo.t.thapana, through the five doors and adverting through the mind- door), and the smile producing consciousness of the arahat, the hasituppaada-citta. ---------------------- Note 41. 'With respect to such unsublime objects as the forms of skeletons or ghosts' (Pm. 476). See e.g. Vin.iii,104. ---------- We read in the Expositor (II, p. 386) about the smiling-consciousness of the arahat which arises in the processes of cittas experiencing objects through the six doors: We read that evenso the Tathaagata smiles at the thought of the arising of Silent Buddhas in the future. N: First the Buddha directs his attention to the past or the future with mahaa-kiriyacittas, accompanied by wisdom, and after that he smiles with ahetuka kiriyacittas, which are hasituppaada cittas. It is explained in the Expositor (II, p. 388) that ordinary persons laugh with four types of citta: four kusala cittas accompanied by joy, and four lobha-muula-cittas accompanied by joy. When we laugh, there are usually lobha-muulacittas. Arahats smile with four mahaa- kiriyacittas accompanied by joy and with one type of ahetuka kiriyacitta accompanied by joy. The last type of citta is ahetuka, it is without the hetus of alobha, adosa and paaa. The cittas of the arahat are not always accompanied by paaa. ***** Nina. #102592 From: "Icaro" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Formal instructions in VsM icarofranca Hi Nina! > ----------- > Vis. Ch IV, 108 and Tiika. > 108. Well Well Well...! That's it! Very thanks, Nina! Your clarification about the two types of "mind-consciousness-element" is very complete too. I cannot easily avoid the efforts to purification (good grief...), but I got the consolation that not all Arahats states of mind are accompanied by Paa! I liked your reply so much that I printed it as reference! (I will check the Vism text: pulling it by memory I was aware that it was at the 108 paragraph...but at what chapter ? Now I will be there!) Mettaya and smiling a lot (just for now...) Icaro #102593 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 11/22/2009 11:04:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ----------------------------------------------------- > Yes, that's the story. Included in that story is that contact and > feeling arise together. To recite the story, however, is not to give sutta > evidence of the coinciding of contact and feeling, which is what I am > requesting. > ---------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------ > You are providing a litany, Nina, but not a sutta. > ------------------------------------------------------ Hi Howard, Nina, all Sutta is MN43 ""Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."" "For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling." - MN148 [same with all 6 senses] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html Since consciousness & feeling "are conjoined" and condition for feeling is contact, it means that "consciousness, contact, feeling, perception" happen together. ---------------------------------------------------- No, it is not necessarily so, not in the way you mean. There can be contact occurring, say the coming together of a sharp, strong stomach sensation and consciousness via the body door, followed by new state of consciousness that takes the just-passed (or even still present) sensation as object and with vedana THEN first feeling that sensation as unpleasant, perhaps after some brief mental processing. The assumption that there is new contact with every new mind state (for example when there is a change in which cetasikas are active is a consequence of the freeze-frame, packet view of "cittas". But things need not be that way. The feeling could well be subsequent to the original body-door contact, with there being only one contact event at the outset. One could be awakened in the morning by a sound, and a rapid but complex perceptual process then leads to feeling that sound as unpleasant. I'm not saying that the feeling MUST be subsequent to the contact, but that it COULD be. The detail of my experience is not fine enough for me to directly know the facts. I have no problem with that being the case, though I suspect it may not be. What I would like to see is a sutta in which the Buddha says that phassa and vedana always co-occur (or not). --------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102594 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:31 pm Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability kenhowardau Hi Azita and Mike, ------------ KH: > > Because of anatta there are only dhammas. <. . .> >> azita: > I would put this the other way round: ----------- I agree, for the purposes of wise consideration, it is helpful to put these things every which-way. ------------ A: > bec there are only dhammas which are impermanent therefore no self can be found in these impermanent dhammas. ------------ Aha, but *why* are there only dhammas? Isn't that because of anatta? Let's presume for the sake of argument that there are currently no flying purple elephants anywhere in the universe. Still, there might have been some in the past, mightn't there? And there might some be in the future. The mere, present absence of FPE's doesn't prove anything. Anatta, on the other hand is an irreversible law of nature. Because of anatta there are currently no FPE's, no CCV's (computer-controlled vehicles) no nothing! - apart from dhammas. Nor have there ever been - or ever will be. Ken H #102595 From: Herman Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/23 truth_aerator > > > Sutta is MN43 > ""Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not > disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to > delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. > What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are > conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one > from another, to delineate the difference among them."" > > "For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one > cognizes. " > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html > > Sorry Alex, the above does not address contact, I am afraid. > > "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there > is feeling." - MN148 [same with all 6 senses] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html > > In no way does the above imply that contact and feeling are simultaneous. Cheers Herman #102596 From: Herman Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Inducing samatha egberdina Hello Jon, 2009/11/20 jonoabb > Hi Alex > > Any moment of kusala that is accompanied by understanding of the level that > knows the difference between kusala and akusala is samatha. > I've always wondered about the following, and I thought this would be a good opportunity to ask. What is there to differentiate between what is understood as kusala by ignorance, and what is understood as kusala by panna? Or in other words, how is panna known? Cheers Herman #102597 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling truth_aerator Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 11/22/2009 11:04:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, that's the story. Included in that story is that contact and > > feeling arise together. To recite the story, however, is not to give > sutta > > evidence of the coinciding of contact and feeling, which is what I am > > requesting. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > You are providing a litany, Nina, but not a sutta. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > Hi Howard, Nina, all > > > Sutta is MN43 > ""Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not > disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate > the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What > one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, > not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from > another, to delineate the difference among them."" > > "For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one > cognizes. " > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html > > > "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there > is feeling." - MN148 [same with all 6 senses] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html > > Since consciousness & feeling "are conjoined" and condition for feeling > is contact, it means that > > > "consciousness, contact, feeling, perception" happen together. > ---------------------------------------------------- > No, it is not necessarily so, not in the way you mean. > There can be contact occurring, say the coming together of a sharp, strong stomach sensation and consciousness via the body door, Consciousness does experience vedana. While vedana is present, consciousness is present as well. "'For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes." >followed by new state of consciousness that takes the just-passed >(or even still present) sensation as object and with vedana THEN >first feeling that sensation as unpleasant, perhaps after some >brief mental processing. Old state, or any state of consciousness includes vedana. Phassa is even more complex than vinnana. So it does happen in some way WITH vinnana, and vinnana already has vedana. >The assumption that there is new contact with every new mind state There is phassa with any consciousness. Many factors co-occur and at that same time some are more subservient and some more/less complex. It is extreme view to believe that every dhamma is discreet entity, and another extreme view is to say that all dhammas are the same. In my humble understanding, many dhammas arises together and they condition each other. Yet, they are not the same. Internal base, external bases, consciousness, perception, volition, intention, attention, life faculty arise with every state of consciousness. Abhidhamma claims that ekaggata happens as well. With metta, Alex #102598 From: Herman Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unpleasnt feeling while dying egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/11/21 sarah abbott > Hi Herman, > > --- On Thu, 19/11/09, Herman wrote: > >I hope you have returned to good health. > ... > S: Yes thanks, it was a minor problem....it just happened to occur around > the time Lukas mentioned his unfortunate experience. > Glad you're back to normal :-) > Actually, I was thinking about how some of us have known each other on DSG > for almost 10 years now - during that time, almost everyone has suffered > minor or major illness, has lost relatives or friends, has experienced all > sorts of gains and losses. It's the appreciation of the Dhamma, no matter > how varied our understandings, that provides some sanctuary for most of us > at such times... > True enough. It's also quite amazing to think how long we've all been discussing, on and off. > ... > > >>S: I spent most the night in the bathroom > > >Please do not take offence at what follows. I fully understand that you > would go to the bathroom every time you felt you were going to vomit. I > would have done the same. But, why do you question people who seek out an > appropriate setting to learn and cultivate samatha/jhana, but have no > qualms about seeking out an appropriate place to vomit? > ... > S: No offence at all, but I appreciate the 'courteous Herman':). > > It all depends on our purpose: if we're sick, we go to the bathroom because > we all know and agree it's the suitable place to go. > As I said, quite sincerely of course, I don't have a problem with any of that. I would have done exactly the same. But in terms of present moment, running to the bathroom is being totally lost in aversion, isn't it? Isn't it all about how one doesn't want to deal with the mess and the stench etc that one expects to happen in the future, near future, very near future :-) We prefer to be sick in an effortlessly cleaned porcelain bowl, rather than on carpets and floors and over furniture that will take a lot of effort to clean afterwards, and that will come with a lot of unpleasant sensations. And, if we wouldn't run to the bathroom immersed in aversion to the possibility of the mess we are about to make, a steady stream of thoughts full of aversion would arise if we puked on the floor, wouldn't they? You do often point to the importance of coming to understand the present moment, and I agree with you, but I do also think that being our "natural" selves, doing our "natural" deeds, gives no opportunity for that to occur. > > If we go to the forest "to learn and cultivate samatha/jhana", how will > such learning and cultivation occur? The first thing that will happen to anyone who as a novice attempts to sit in a focussed or undistracted fashion is that all the "natural" conditioning of the mind just continues on it's merry way, and it will be found that sitting in a focussed or undistracted way is very difficult indeed, because it is counter to everything that is done "naturally". And so the opportunity is presented to realise how everything that is done naturally is to satisfy the cravings of the senses. That's how the learning and cultivation starts, by going against the flow, by doing something very unnatural. > I question what the understanding and purpose is in such an action. If > there isn't any understanding of what samatha is now, why should there be > any more understanding of it in the forest? > Well, samatha is it's own reward. If one is perfectly contented living the hustled and bustled householders life, samatha would be most unappealing. But not so for those who glimpse the pervasive reality of dukkha. Cheers Herman #102599 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta and uncontrollability kenhowardau Hi Howard and Mike, --------- KH: > >A computer controlled vehicle, being something other than a dhamma, is atta. H: > Ken, what *are* you talking about!? --------------- *If* there was something that was other than a paramattha dhamma it would have to be atta, wouldn't it? Actually, the question doesn't arise because there is no reality that is not a paramattha dhamma. But I am just saying, *if* . . . ------------------------ H: > A computer-controlled vehicle is either an aggregate of rupas or is a concept or is nothing at all, but it is NOT "self" or "a self." ------------------------- I know some people like to talk about things as aggregates of rupas, but I don't find it helpful. (I'm not saying it can't be helpful for others.) Ultimately, a CCV is a concept. But in the conventional world, it would be silly to say "Look, there goes a concept!" Atta (a persisting being, entity or thing) is quite acceptable in the conventional way of seeing the world. Just so long as we don't think it carries over into the ultimately right way of seeing the world. Ken H