#102600 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:50 pm Subject: Re: Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling truth_aerator Hello Herman, Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2009/11/23 truth_aerator > > > > > > > Sutta is MN43 > > ""Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not > > disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to > > delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. > > What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are > > conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one > > from another, to delineate the difference among them."" > > > > "For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one > > cognizes. " > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html > > > > > Sorry Alex, the above does not address contact, I am afraid. > > > > > > > "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The > > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there > > is feeling." - MN148 [same with all 6 senses] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html > > > > > In no way does the above imply that contact and feeling are simultaneous. > > Cheers > > Herman When you look at the moon, you see its shape & color simulteneously. It is part of the same complex of experience. When "candle is burning" a number of processes happen at the same time and are inter-dependent. The brightness & shape of the candle flame, the burning of the oil, the wick present, combustion, heat, the oxygen that is used, etc. Sorry if I cannot explain it better. With metta, Alex #102601 From: han tun Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:14 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (72) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 9.Groups of Ruupas (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ---------------------------------- The citta which is rebirth-consciousness does not produce ruupa. The citta which immediately succeeds the rebirth-consciousness, namely the life-continuum (bhavanga-citta) [Note 1], produces ruupa. One moment of citta can be divided into three extremely short phases: its arising moment, the moment of its presence and the moment of its falling away. Citta produces ruupa at its arising moment, since citta is then strong. At the moment of its presence and the moment of its dissolution it is weak and then it does not produce ruupa (Visuddhimagga XX, 32). When the citta succeeding the rebirth-consciousness, the life-continuum, arises, it produces a pure octad. Later on citta produces, apart from pure octads, also groups with bodily intimation, with speech intimation and with the three rúpas of lightness, plasticity and wieldiness, which always have to arise together. These three kinds of ruupa also arise in a group together with bodily intimation and speech intimation. In the case of speech intimation, also sound arises together with speech intimation in one group. Throughout life citta produces ruupa, but not all cittas can produce ruupa. As we have seen, the rebirth-consciousness does not produce ruupa. Among the cittas that do not produce ruupa are also the sense-cognitions of seeing, hearing, etc. Seeing only sees, it has no other capacity. Some cittas can produce ruupas but not bodily intimation and speech intimation, and some cittas can produce the two kinds of intimation. Among the cittas that can produce the two kinds of intimation are the kusala cittas of the sense-sphere (thus not those that attain absorption or jhaana and those that realize enlightenment), and the akusala cittas [Note 2]. Temperature (heat-element) can produce groups of ruupas of the body as well as groups of ruupas of materiality outside. In the case of materiality outside it produces groups that are "pure octads" and also groups with sound [Note 3]. Ruupas that are not of the body are solely produced by temperature, they are not produced by kamma, citta or nutrition. When we see a rock or plant we may think that they last, but they consist of ruupas originated by temperature, arising and falling away all the time. Ruupas are being replaced time and again, and we do not realize that ruupas which have fallen away never come back. As regards groups of rúpas of the body, temperature produces pure octads and also groups with lightness, plasticity and wieldiness. [Note 1] The bhavanga-citta arises in between the processes of cittas; it does not experience objects that impinge on the six doors, but it experiences the same object as the rebirth-consciousness. It maintains the continuity in the life of an individual. [Note 2] For details see Visuddhimagga XX, 31, and Atthasåliní II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 325. [Note 3] Sound can be produced by temperature or by citta. ------------------------------ Chapter 9.Groups of Ruupas to be continued. with metta, Han #102602 From: Herman Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known egberdina Hi KenO and Howard, 2009/11/21 Ken O > Dear Herman and Howard > > To me, it is not an easy subject to explain. > Yes, I agree, and good on us for all persevering :-) > Take for example, I burnt in my fingers. It is bodily citta that > experiences the burning of the internal fire element. I think that one of the reasons why the topic is confusing, is because two different things are being mixed together as though they are the same, when they really are not. Take the above "I burnt my fingers". That is one thing, it is an experience, a certain kind of sensation felt in a certain location. However "it is bodily citta that experiences the burning of the internal fire element", is quite another thing. That is an explanation, not an experience. It is thinking about experience. So, we have experience, and explanation. > The characteristic of fire element which I use burning here as example is > the same whether it is the internal experience of the body citta or the > external fire element where it burns up villages etc. > You may well be right that the explanations for burning fingers and burning villages would be similar. But the experiences are totally different. As experience, a burnt up village has no sensation of pain, but my burnt fingers do. So what we have is this thing called heat, which is being used as an explanation, and also as an experience. Where we go wrong is in saying that the explanation is an experience. It isn't. Feeling a burning sensation is not the same as seeing a house on fire. > > Abhidhamma reference to the same characteristics > pg 417 Expositor, Derived Material Qualities > << Although sounds have been distinguished [in the Text] as, eg of a big > drum, they have not been differentiated as regards salient characteristics, > etc. As to these, all sounds have the characteristics of striking the ear, That is an explanation of sound, not a sound. > the functions-and-property of being the object of auditory cognition, the > manifestation is being the field or object of auditory cognition.>> > This is just saying that sound is heard in the most bombastic way possible :-) But saying that sound is heard is just a very trivial explanation for the experience of sound happening. > [in the Text] as in the text it describe various types of sound cause by > muscial instruments, 'noise of people', sound of the blowing wind etc. > Exactly. Sound cause. However, sound causes and sound are not the same thing. The necessary condition that makes sound sound is that it is experienced. There are no unexperienced sounds. Seeing someone play piano is not sound, seeing people in a room is not sound etc > > > Internal and External Rupas > Then we go down to para 27 of the MN 28 Sutta > << ...... But when internally the eye is intact and external forms come > into its range and there is the corresponding [conscious] engagment, then > there is the manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness.>> > Right. This is an explanation for experience occurring. When there is engagement between multiple factors, there is experience. But if any of the factors are missing, then there is no experience. But there is no internal or external in the experience. The internal and external are part of the explanation. > We must distinguish two ways in looking at external fire element (external > rupa). One which is independent from our range of experiences which is > burning of the villages while the other is explain above it must come into > the range of our experiences which then becomes an internal rupa > (the object). > But the experiences are entirely different. The burnt village is seen, and the burnt finger is felt. In both cases, the fire element may be an explanation, but that is all. Thanks for your consideration, KenO Cheers Herman #102603 From: Herman Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/23 truth_aerator > Hello Herman, Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > 2009/11/23 truth_aerator > > > > > > > > > > > Sutta is MN43 > > > ""Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not > > > disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, > to > > > delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one > perceives. > > > What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are > > > conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them > one > > > from another, to delineate the difference among them."" > > > > > > "For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one > > > cognizes. " > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html > > > > > > > > Sorry Alex, the above does not address contact, I am afraid. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. > The > > > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition > there > > > is feeling." - MN148 [same with all 6 senses] > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html > > > > > > > > In no way does the above imply that contact and feeling are simultaneous. > > > > Cheers > > > > Herman > > Thanks for taking the time to explain, Alex. Judging from what you have written, your understanding of contact is different to mine. Maybe that is the source of confusion. > When you look at the moon, you see its shape & color simulteneously. It is > part of the same complex of experience. > This is where I get my understanding of contact from: "Now if internally the eye is intact but externally forms do not come into range, nor is there a corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. If internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, but there is no corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. " Unless I am mistaken, which is of course quite possible, contact is identical with engagement. It is not a phenomenon as such. It precedes, causally, the arising of a phenomenon. How do you understand contact? Cheers Herman #102604 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > .... > > How do you understand contact? > Hello Herman, Howard, By contact (phassa) I take to to be not just two balls hitting against each other. Better interpretation would be "sense-interaction" or if we do insist on using word contact, it should also mean contact as in "John is in contact with Jack." As to 3 mental aggregates I prefer this translation: Vinnana (consciousness) = Presence of phenomena Vedana = Quality of experience (pleasant, unpleasant, neither) For example vedayita = feeling; experience. vedagu= one who has attained the highest knowledge. veda=knowledge vedenta = feelling; knowing. So I think it is reasonable to translate vedana as quality of experience, or even "experience [that is pleasant, unpleasant, neither]" itself. Sanna (perception) = re-cognition, memory. This allows you to experience that "this is the same" . Presence (vinnana) is always of something. So it can't happen by itself. Whenever there is ANY recognition, or volition, there is always a certain affective experiential quality of that mental state (vedana). When you are looking at the moon there is presence of certain type of experience, interaction between sense organs AND recognition of that fact. They happen in one cluster. As to causality/conditionality: It does NOT have to span temporal dimension. Multiple phenomena may arise simultaneous and at the same time mutually condition each other in various ways. Some arisen phenomena may be decisive, some subservient, some phenomena more complex, some less, some conascent, associated, some phenomena hold other phenomena by being non-disappearance or presence condition, some arisen phenomena can be supportive, reinforcing etc. Word order in pali sentence does NOT have to imply temporal order, unless certain grammatical features (such as gerunds) are present. Doing X, Y, Z doesn't necessary imply order. Only if we say "Having done X, one does Y. Having done Y, one does Z" - only then the grammar requires temporal order. With metta, Alex #102605 From: Herman Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling egberdina Hello Alex, 2009/11/23 truth_aerator ..... > > > > How do you understand contact? > > > > Cheers > > > > Herman > > > > Hello Herman, Howard, > > > > By contact (phassa) I take to to be not just two balls hitting against each > other. Better interpretation would be "sense-interaction" or if we do insist > on using word contact, it should also mean contact as in "John is in contact > with Jack." > > As to 3 mental aggregates I prefer this translation: > Vinnana (consciousness) = Presence of phenomena > > Vedana = Quality of experience (pleasant, unpleasant, neither) > > For example vedayita = feeling; experience. > vedagu= one who has attained the highest knowledge. > veda=knowledge > vedenta = feelling; knowing. > > So I think it is reasonable to translate vedana as quality of experience, > or even "experience [that is pleasant, unpleasant, neither]" itself. > > > Sanna (perception) = re-cognition, memory. This allows you to experience > that "this is the same" . > > > Presence (vinnana) is always of something. So it can't happen by itself. > Whenever there is ANY recognition, or volition, there is always a certain > affective experiential quality of that mental state (vedana). > > > When you are looking at the moon there is presence of certain type of > experience, interaction between sense organs AND recognition of that fact. > They happen in one cluster. > > > > As to causality/conditionality: It does NOT have to span temporal > dimension. Multiple phenomena may arise simultaneous and at the same time > mutually condition each other in various ways. Some arisen phenomena may be > decisive, some subservient, some phenomena more complex, some less, some > conascent, associated, some phenomena hold other phenomena by being > non-disappearance or presence condition, some arisen phenomena can be > supportive, reinforcing etc. > > Word order in pali sentence does NOT have to imply temporal order, unless > certain grammatical features (such as gerunds) are present. > > Doing X, Y, Z doesn't necessary imply order. Only if we say > "Having done X, one does Y. Having done Y, one does Z" - only then the > grammar requires temporal order. > > Thank you for your very well reasoned post. I agree with you that form, feeling, perception, fabrication, consciousness [of any x] are not temporally separate. But the issue is with regards to contact, not the aggregates. I am not a Pali student, so perhaps you could help with the question below. " But when internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. The form of what has thus come into being is gathered under the form clinging-aggregate." (MN28) In the last sentence, in the original Pali, is there a gerund? In the English translation, "come into being" is certainly very strongly suggestive of a temporal order, wouldn't you agree? Cheers Herman #102606 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/22/2009 2:08:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Alex, Howard, Alex provided a sutta. This settles it? ========================= Nope. :-) Actually, I replied to Alex, Nina. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102607 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling truth_aerator Hi Herman, Howard all, Yato ca kho, avuso, ajjhattiko ceva mano aparibhinno hoti, bahira ca dhamma apatham agacchanti, tajjo ca samannaharo hoti, evam tajjassa vinnanabhagassa patubhavo hoti. PTS MN28 1.191 "And because, friend, inward mind is not broken and external dhamma is coming into sphere of range, and arising from that "collection?", thus from that arising exists appearance of part of consciousness. " Yato = from where; whence; since; because; on account of which. Ajjhattiko = adj. personal; inward. Bahira = adj. external; outer; foreign. (nt.), outside. Aparibhinno = a + paribhinno (past participle passive} = not + broken; split; set at variance. Tajjo = arising from that. apatham = sphere or range (of a sense organ). Agacchanti = (present participle active) coming; approaching. Samannaharo = ? samannahari = aor. collected together. Hoti = to be; exists. vinnanabhagassa = part of consciousness patubhavo = appearance; coming into manifestation. It seems to be straightforward that coming together of mano + dhamma + samannaharo = mental part of consciosness . Or mano + dhamma + vinnana = samannaharo The only temporal difference seems to be between mind not broken (past participle passive ) and coming (present participle active) of external dhamma. But even then, the meet at a same certain point. "The form of what has thus come into being is gathered under the form clinging-aggregate." – Ven TB Yam tathabhutassa rupam tam rupupadanakkhandhe sangaham gacchati Yam = which; whatever thing. Tathabhutassa = of what has thus come to be (bhuta = past participle passive) Tam = that thing Rupa = form sangaham = 1. treatment; 2. compilation; collection. Rupupadanakkhandhe = in form clinging-aggregate Gacchati = goes; moves; walks. As to phasso (contact, sense-interaction) as I understand it it is part of sankhara khandha. Not only that but nama (mentality) includes: "sensation, perception, intention, contact, attention" this, friend, is called Nama (Name, mentality). Vedana, sanna, cetana, phasso, manasikaro – idam vuccatavuso, namam MN9 ==== With metta, Alex #102609 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:31 am Subject: consciosness, contact, feeling, perception happen simulteneously truth_aerator Hi Howard, Herman, all "Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality. " - MN9 "what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them." - MN43 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html Note: Contact is listed with feeling, perception, volition. With metta, Alex #102610 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:37 am Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability gazita2002 hallo KenH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Hi Azita and Mike, > > A: > bec there are only dhammas which are impermanent therefore no self > can be found in these impermanent dhammas. > ------------ > > Aha, but *why* are there only dhammas? Isn't that because of anatta? > > Let's presume for the sake of argument that there are currently no > flying purple elephants anywhere in the universe. Still, there might > have been some in the past, mightn't there? And there might some be in > the future. The mere, present absence of FPE's doesn't prove anything. > > Anatta, on the other hand is an irreversible law of nature. Because of > anatta there are currently no FPE's, no CCV's (computer-controlled > vehicles) no nothing! - apart from dhammas. Nor have there ever been - > or ever will be. > > Ken H azita: mmm-I knew this wouldnt be easy :-) I agree that anatta is an irreversible law of nature, and that there never has been anything but dhammas, but what came first!! Now I really dont expect an answer to that Ken, bec I think it is the realm of Buddhas' knowledge. All I know is that there is only now and it is impermanent unsatisfactory and not-self. Just namas and rupas arising and falling away, aways was always will be........ patience, courage and good cheer azita #102611 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:40 am Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability kenhowardau Hi Azita and Mike, ------ <. . .> azita: > mmm-I knew this wouldnt be easy :-) ------------- Blame Mike, he got me started! :-) ----------- A: I agree that anatta is an irreversible law of nature, and that there never has been anything but dhammas, but what came first!! Now I really dont expect an answer to that Ken, bec I think it is the realm of Buddhas' knowledge. ------------- Oh, and I had an answer ready! :-) ----------------- A: > All I know is that there is only now and it is impermanent unsatisfactory and not-self. Just namas and rupas arising and falling away, always was always will be........ ------------------ Some people might ask us how we know that. Not being ariyans I suppose we don't really know it, but, secretly we do, don't we? :-) What other explanation of ultimate reality could their possibly be? A Creator God? No, that theory has seen its day. Materialism? Yes, possibly, but unlikely. When compared to the way of nama and rupa, materialism is just too far-fetched. What I am trying to say is, now that we have heard the Dhamma it all makes perfect sense. Just impersonal mental and physical phenomena - AKA dukkha - arising, performing their functions and falling away. Right understanding puts an end to dukkha. We've seen it for ourselves. Ken H #102612 From: "Mike" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:56 am Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability mikenz66 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > --------------- > M: > I keep seeing the argument that "because of anatta there is no > control". Can someone please explain this? I'm afraid that the logic is > beyond me. > ---------------- > > > KenH: Because of anatta there are only dhammas. > > Does that answer your question? :-) Mike: Not really. Sorry. Mike #102613 From: "Mike" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:01 am Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability mikenz66 Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > KenH, What I am trying to say is, now that we have heard the Dhamma it all > makes perfect sense. Just impersonal mental and physical phenomena - AKA > dukkha - arising, performing their functions and falling away. Right > understanding puts an end to dukkha. We've seen it for ourselves. Mike: So something causes (controls) that... Mike #102614 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:43 am Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Dear DSG, > > I keep seeing the argument that "because of anatta there is no control". Can someone please explain this? I'm afraid that the logic is beyond me. > > Perhaps I can give an example. A computer-controlled vehicle has no self but does have some control of trajectory... > > > Metta > Mike > ++++ dear Mike yes and in the same way a human, dog, insect is programed to perform certain actions and have certain beliefs. How ever, unlike your computer car there was never any original programmer- no person, no God, no one at all, who set up the program. In fact no beginning can be discerned.. Also this program- comprising of paccaya- conditions, is much more more complex because it is very gradually changing, aeon by aeon, millienia by millenia, century by century, year by year, and in fact moment by moment. Now I act, think and look like a man because of the rupas that arise due to kamma, next life maybe I will be a woman where I will have all the characteristics of that gender. No control anywhere - the rupas (matter) don't want to be woman or man- but they arise depending on kamma. No do the namas mentality want to think like a man, they merely perform their functions. I enjoy being a man now- but I will also enjoy being a woman, no doubt- not because "I" want to enjoy but because underlying life is the roots of avija, ignorance, lobha, attachment, and wrongview(that thinks there is some self that is doing, behaving and thinking in various ways).) Is that clear now.. robert #102615 From: "Mike" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:58 am Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability mikenz66 Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Is that clear now.. Not entirely, but it's getting better... Mike #102616 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:15 am Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability rjkjp1 here is a conversation i had with Christine on esangha(the link still seems to be down).. QUOTE(cooran @ Sep 25 2007, 08:58 PM) Hello Rob, Do you think within Dependent Origination, that there could be said to be room for Choice? We are what we are because of everything that ever happened to the stream of consciousness - but, for example, even though I am planning a trip to Thailand and India over the next weeks, I still have the capability to go or not go, wouldn't you say? metta Chris dear Chris Just the illusion of control. Underlying any actions are lobha, or dosa, or avijja(ignorance) or panna(wisdom) . It seems like "I can decide to go to Thailand", but actually it is lobha arising and this conditions certain movements and speech. Or it might be wisdom arising that conditions the action. But most of the time it is lobha that is a dominant cause. Either way no one can make wisdom or lobha arise, they arise because they are conditioned... QUOTE Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curisosity, and while it works and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too this materiality (rupa)-mentality (nama) is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness." Visuddhimagga XVIII 31 Usually we think "I'm interested or bored or excited or calm, or sad or happy or wise or confused or making effort or being negligent." But there are only different elements performing different functions - and they have no agenda: QUOTE "The uninterestedness becomes evident to him though seeing rise and fall according to condition owing to his discovery of the inability of states to have mastery exercised over them. Then he more thoroughly abandons the self view." Visuddhimagga XX 102 Robert And another post from Esangha Robert:I think the idea of freewill is part of the illusion that keeps the wheel of dependent origination(paticcasamuppada) forever spinning. It occurs and is repeatedly 'confirmed' because avijja , ignorance, runs among concepts and takes what are merely elements, performing different tasks, as wholes. When we think of wholes we do not see the nature of dhammas. It is by breaking down the wholes (the direct study of realities in the present moment)that insight grows. " QUOTE When they are seen (the khandhas) after resolving them by means of knowledge into elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhammas)occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more clear" Pm (visuddhimagga xxi n.4) If there were freewill it would be great, we could decide to always have metta, always sati. However, all elements are conditioned and only when there are the right conditions can metta or sati arise. So it takes time for the right conditions to become dominant, a long time, cira kala bhavana. Think how long just one aeon is: during just this time the amount of blood we each spilled when being beheaded as criminals is greater than the waters in the ocean. And there are more of these aeons than the particles of dust in the universe. Buddhists often panic when they hear this and make enormous effort to control sati and other kusala, but this mostly reinforces the idea of self and so the cycle is strengthened. By understanding that "It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the exercise of power. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of opposing self" (see vis. note 3 xxi) Then it becomes easier to let go, a different type of effort. The crucial factor in the eight fold path is samma-ditthi, right view. This type of view depends on hearing correct Dhamma from the Buddha or his disciples and reflecting in a correct and profound way on it. There are other factors listed such as discussion on subtle points which are said to assist insight . Now these factors all depend to some degree on conditions that arise now, however they are also conditioned partly by conditions from the past. Even hearing deep Dhamma is to some extent a matter of vipaka conditioned by kamma, a past factor. How fast and how deep one understands what one hears is largely conditioned by pubbekata punnata (merit done in the past). This then conditions effort to hear more, consider more and 'let go' more and these are new conditions arising in the present, but built on past ones. Nevertheless, it doesn't always work exactly how we wish it would; why does one person go so fast, so far, and another doesn't. Venerable Sunnakhata (sp?) was the Buddha's attendant before Ananda. He listened to Dhamma and attained genuine Jhana with some powers even, a man with rare capcties indeed, But he eventually left the Buddha, spoke badly of the Dhamma, and followed ascetics who used to live a life of severe ascetism, copying dogs (dog-duty ascetics). Why, when he had all this going for him? The commentary says that this man had lived 500 consecutive past lives as a ascetic and had these tendencies. Even the Buddha's teaching couldn't overcome them. And so we see how dependent past factors are in conditioning behaviour. Of course Sunnakhata made choices, he had conventional volitional control over what he did, but what he couldn't see was that ditthi (wrong view)and lobha were underlying all his choices.. On the other hand a queen tried to avoid seeing the Buddha because she was beautiful and had heard that beauty was said to be a temporary thing by the Buddha. She was eventually forced to listen by the king's orders, but managed to put herself at the back of the crowd. It didn't matter - the Buddha used his powers and made an image of a woman even more beautiful than the queen, and then made the image quickly age- conditions worked so that she heard the teaching and there and then became enlightened. She didn't want to get enlightened, but conditions follow their own ways. . I think learning about the anattaness of all dhammas gradually gives a type of detachment that isn't much shaken by misfortune. One doesn't expect any dhamma to give satisfaction because they are inherently unstable and every change, whether for better or worse, simply confirms this - at the micro and macro level. But this is understanding, panna, a conditioned mental factor doing its job- not us. Robert #102617 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:27 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 4, no 14 nilovg Dear friends, In order to grasp the nature of our own life and the lives of others, it is essential to understand what citta is. In order to have more understanding of what citta is, the difference between conventional truth and ultimate truth has to be known. Conventional truth is the truth we were always familiar with before we studied the Buddhist teachings; it is the conventional world of person, of “self”, of things which exist. Ultimate truth are mental phenomena and physical phenomena. Cittas are mental phenomena, they experience something. Bodily phenomena, such as the sense organs, and physical phenomena outside do not experience anything. Citta can experience both mental phenomena and physical phenomena. The physical phenomena and mental phenomena of our life arise, exist just for an extremely short moment and then vanish. Ultimate realities have each their own characteristic which can be directly experienced when it appears, without the need to think about it. By theoretical understanding we will not know what citta is. Only if there can be the development of direct understanding of the citta appearing at this moment, no matter it is seeing, hearing or thinking, will we truly know what citta is. When the diversity of cittas and their manifold conditions are seen more clearly the truth of non-self will gradually be better understood. One will be motivated to seek the elimination of delusion about the realities of one’s life, of the wrong view of self, of all forms of clinging, aversion and ignorance. ********* Nina #102618 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself ptaus1 Dear Nina, Sarah and KenO, Thanks for your replies. Unfortunately, space is not equivalent to a medium, at least not in sound theory. For example, in interstellar space, there is open space, but no medium for sound to be transfered, so no sound. Or to take Sarah's example of a waterfall enclosed with a thick wall, sound would still come through to the other side (especially bass frequencies), because walls, earth and everything else vibrates - behaves as a medium for sound transfer. Perhaps it would help to consider the explanation for seeing in Visuddhimagga - light is given as one of the conditions for seeing. So, space again can be said to be a supporting condition for light to propagate through so that it can reach the eyes, but nevertheless, light is given as a condition. Now, how would light be defined in abhidhamma, is it a rupa, or a concept, or something else? Why was it considered important to give it as a condition? Or an even closer example is for smelling where air is given as one of the conditions. So why no medium for sound then? Best wishes pt > S: Why not the open space as the "medium" not just in the ear but usually outside as well? For example, if there were a high thick wall surrounding the waterfall, the sound wouldn't be heard even if we were nearby in the forest. Without the wall or other block, given the space, ear-sense and sound, there may be conditions for hearing to arise and experience the sound, depending on kamma, of course. But I also think it is the space in the ear itself that is the essential condition for sound to be heard. #102619 From: Herman Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and uncontrollability egberdina Hi Mike, 2009/11/22 Mike > Dear DSG, > > I keep seeing the argument that "because of anatta there is no control". > Can someone please explain this? I'm afraid that the logic is beyond me. > I can understand the confusion. I do not see a connection between anatta and control either. I think what people mean, but don't say, is that self is not an actual condition that has any influence on anything, so therefore, there is no self that controls anything. I can live with that, but, of course, that doesn't mean there is no control. There is definitely control, it is just not self that exercises it. Cheers Herman #102620 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. > > Or the characteristic of pleasantness is simply brought about by > > vipaka condition, and has nothing to do with what is being seen at > > the moment of seeing consciousness (which is nothing specific at > > that moment as yet, since there are no definite objects like gold > > or dung singled out yet)? > ------ > N: Yes, it is brought about by kamma-condition. Seeing just sees and > does not know whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant. We > usually think about it afterwards. pt: That makes sense. However, in that case, sayings such as "seeing gold is kusala vipaka, and seeing dung is akusala vipaka" seem to be incorrect. Even more so the generalized sayings like - hearing harsh words is akusala vipaka, getting ill is akusala vipaka, etc. How do you reconcile the two? Best wishes pt #102621 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness nilovg Hi Howard, Op 22-nov-2009, om 16:49 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: Citta and its accompanying cetasikas fall away immediately and > when citta arises in a mind-door process, it is another moment, > accompanied again by cetasikas performing their functions. > ------------------------------------------------------ > H: You are providing a litany, Nina, but not a sutta. ------- N: Ah, that won't hurt! This is Abhidhamma and at first you may not like hearing it, but later on, perhaps you may. I mention basics about citta and cetasikas, because that gives some foundation knowledge. This is a support for awareness and understanding later on. We have to study so that the foundation knowledge (for all of us!) is correct, otherwise there may be hindrances on the way. We cannot expect to always find suttas that prove the abhidhamma, although there is Abhidhamma in the Suttanta. ------- > N: (again some litany, won't hurt): > There are seven cetasikas that accompany each citta, called the > universals: contact, feeling, remembrance (sa~n~naa), volition, > concentration, vitality and attention (manasikaara). > They arise together with citta at the same physical base, they > experience the same object as citta and they fall away together with > citta. They each perform their own function while they arise with > citta. > ----------------------------------------------------- > H: Yes, that's the story. Included in that story is that contact and > feeling arise together. To recite the story, however, is not to > give sutta > evidence of the coinciding of contact and feeling, which is what I am > requesting. > ---------------------------------------------------- > N: It is very difficult to directly know the characteristics of the > different cetasikas. This cannot be known before the first stage of > insight: the direct understanding of the difference between naama > and ruupa. so, we should discuss this first. What is citta? without citta nothing in the world could appear, no colours, no sounds, nothing. But now visible object appears. It can only appear because there is a citta that sees. The experience and visible object are entirely different: seeing knows something, and visible object does not know anything. One may say: I know this already. Yes, by thinking of the story, but not by awareness and direct understanding of exactly those characteristics, at the moment they appear. They are not in the book. > ------- > H: If feeling is a mental operation that affectively "tastes" an > object, as is the Abhidhammic perspective (which I tend to accept), > then it > would either have to be doing the tasting while the object is present > or would > have to apply to a fresh memory (or sign) of the object. In case it > applies > to the sign, then the feeling occurs after the contact. --------- N: When visible object is experienced by citta in a mind-door process it does not matter that it is a sign, there is still another citta experiencing an object, accompanied by another contact, another feeling, another sa~n~naa. It makes no difference. Phassa, contact, is not the same as what we mean in conventional sense by contact. Feeling is not the same as what we mean in conventional sense by sensation or feeling. The Expositor p. 143 explains that contact is mentioned first in the order of teaching. One could also say: there is feeling and contact, etc. There is no sequence in them, they arise together. While they arise together they condition one another. Text Vis. 134. Herein, (i) it touches (phusati), thus it is 'contact' (phassa). This has the characteristic of touching. Its function is the act of impingement. It is manifested as concurrence. Its proximate cause is an objective field that has come into focus. As to its characteristic], although this is an immaterial state, yet it occurs with respect to an object as the act of touching too [60]. And [as to its function], although it is not adherent on any one side [61] as eye-cum-visible-object and ear-cum-sound are, yet it is what makes consciousness and the object impinge. ---------------------- Note 60 taken from the Tiika: ' "As the act of touching too": by this he shows that this is its individual essence even though it is immaterial. And the characteristic of touching is obvious in its occurrence in such instances as, say, the watering of the mouth in one who sees another tasting vinegar or a ripe mango, the bodily shuddering in a sympathetic person who sees another being hurt, the trembling of the knees in a timid man standing on the ground when he sees a man precariously balanced on a high tree branch, the loss of power of the legs in one who sees something terrifying such as pisaaca (goblin)' (Pm. 484-85). N: With these similes the Tiika illustrates that there is phassa without adherence, without there being the physical contact between two things. It is mental contact, aruupa-dhamma as the Tiika emphasizes. We read in the Expositor (p. 143): < There is no impinging on one side of the object [as in physical contact], nevertheless contact causes consciousness and object to be in collision....> The cetasika contact does not impinge on a sense organ, it merely accompanies citta while it as it were ‘touches’ the object so that citta can experience it. The naama-dhamma phassa touches in a way different from a rupa that impinges on a sense organ. Text Vis.: It is said to be manifested as concurrence because it has been described as its own action, namely, the concurrence of the three [(cf. M.i,111), that is, eye, visible object, and eye-consciousness]. N: This is the activity of contact: to be the condition for the coming together of eye, visible object, and seeing, etc. The Tiika refers to a simile taken from the ‘Questions of Milinda’ (I, 60) about two hands that are clapping against each other, comparing their collision with contact. The Expositor (p. 144) elaborates on this, stating that one hand represents the eye, the other hand visible object and their collision contact. It also mentions the simile of two rams that fight and two cymbals that are struck. These similes illustrate that contact has the characterisits of touch and the function of impact when it arises in a sense-door process. The Expositor explains that contact arising in a mind-door process only has the characteristic of touch, not the function of impact. In the mind-door process there is not the impact of ruupa on another ruupa, the sense-base. We have to remember that phassa is mental, no matter whether it arises in a sense-door process or a mind-door process. The Tiika adds that contact of the citta with the object should be seen as only cetasika dhamma. Thus, phassa is cetasika, it is mental. ****** Nina. #102622 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (71) ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. > N: All these things are hard to tell, because it is thinking about > stories. I learnt that realities will be more clearly understood when > there is right understanding of the characteristic of reality that > appears now. Okay, in that case I'll ask about more practical things. When it comes to noticing the distinction between a sense-door process and a mind-door process(es) during seeing, there seem to be two scenarios: 1. when eyes move and then stop in their new position, it takes a while for the first mind-door process to happen - as if there are several sense-door processes happening in succession first, while the eye is refocusing. 2. when the eyes do not move, it seems that sense-door process is much shorter - i.e. it is almost immediately followed by mind-door processes as they single out a specific object (shape) from the panorama. In fact, while eyes are static, it's quite evident that different objects (shapes) keep popping up from the panorama, so each of those shapes would be a new mind-door processes chain, preceded immediately by another sense-door process, the eyes all the while remaining in the same position. So I'm wondering in the first scenario, why does a sense-door process seem to take longer? My guess is that there are several sense-door processes happening in succession while the visual object ("what is seen" as you say) is too weak to allow for a mind-door process to happen. So, only once the eyes have physically focused, the visual object is strong enough and then mind-door can follow. Best wishes pt #102623 From: Herman Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Inducing samatha egberdina Hi Jon, 2009/11/21 jonoabb > > The Buddha did praise and encourage forest-dwelling but, to my > understanding, he did so for those who were able to live that way properly, > that is to say, maintaining sila and developing kusala. It was not > prescribed for all. It was not given as a prerequisite for the development > of insight. > > Only some monks in the Buddha's time were forest-dwellers. Others lived in > monasteries in or near towns (and still became enlightened). They were also > following the monk's life purely and fully. > > I wonder if you would like to reconsider any of the above, in light of the following: "Nagita, there is the case where I see a monk sitting in concentration in a village dwelling. The thought occurs to me, 'Soon a monastery attendant will disturb this venerable one in some way, or a novice will, and rouse him from his concentration.' And so I am not pleased with that monk's village-dwelling. "But then there is the case where I see a monk sitting, nodding, in the wilderness. The thought occurs to me, 'Soon this venerable one will dispel his drowsiness & fatigue and attend to the wilderness-perception, [his mind] unified.' And so I am pleased with that monk's wilderness-dwelling. "Then there is the case where I see a wilderness monk sitting unconcentrated in the wilderness. The thought occurs to me, 'Soon this venerable one will center his unconcentrated mind, or protect his concentrated mind.' And so I am pleased with that monk's wilderness-dwelling. "Then there is the case where I see a wilderness monk sitting in concentration in the wilderness. The thought occurs to me, 'Soon this venerable one will release his unreleased mind, or protect his released mind.' And so I am pleased with that monk's wilderness-dwelling. "Then there is the case where I see a village-dwelling monk who receives robes, alms food, shelter, & medicinal requisites for curing the sick. Receiving, as he likes, those gains, offerings, & fame, he neglects seclusion, he neglects isolated forest & wilderness dwellings. He makes his living by visiting villages, towns, & cities. And so I am not pleased with that monk's village-dwelling. "Then there is the case where I see a wilderness monk who receives robes, alms food, shelter, & medicinal requisites for curing the sick. Fending off those gains, offerings, & fame, he doesn't neglect seclusion, doesn't neglect isolated forest & wilderness dwellings. And so I am pleased with that monk's wilderness-dwelling. "But when I am traveling along a road and see no one in front or behind me, at that time I have my ease, even when urinating & defecating." The above is from AN6:42 and is repeated at AN 5:30 and AN 8:86 Cheers Herman #102624 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:19 pm Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability ptaus1 Hi Mike, Ken and all, > K: I hope everyone will have a go at this question. I'll take a stab at this, being a relative newcomer here, maybe it helps. Corrections welcome. > --------------- > M: > I keep seeing the argument that "because of anatta there is no > control". Can someone please explain this? I'm afraid that the logic is > beyond me. > ---------------- I'd say it goes back to the present moment - understanding it rather than trying to change it. If there's trying to change it, that means there's an attempt to exercise control over it - wrong view has taken the present state as self and now there's trying to change it to something more desirable. That "trying" happens through akusala mental factors. However, if there's understanding of the present state as anatta, anicca and dukkha, then that is already the right view with other kusala factors associated with it. So no control was involved, nor necessary, in that arising of right view. Best wishes pt #102625 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:42 pm Subject: Re: Inducing samatha jonoabb Hi Alex (102495) > > Any moment of kusala that is accompanied by understanding of the >level that knows the difference between kusala and akusala is >samatha. > > Yes I am aware that according to Dhs. every wholesome citta moment with wisdom has (#53 & #54) samatha & vipassana yoked together. > =============== J: That would depend on the kind/level of wisdom being spoken of. The wisdom that accompanies samatha bhavana is of a different kind/level to the wisdom that accompanies insight. > =============== > I am just not betting that that moment can qualify as samatha & vipassana fully developing and leading to maggaphala. > =============== J: The wisdom that accompanies insight is the same kind of wisdom that accompanies path consciousness (maggacitta). The development of insight leads directly to path consciousness. > =============== > What about remaining in wholesome Meditation for hours (as often said in the suttas), not a nanosecond? > =============== J: Only those of very highly developed samatha/jhana could abide in jhana for long periods. But in any event, this is not directly related to the development of insight (many of those mentioned in the texts as being able to abide in jhana were in fact already enlightened). > =============== > > So the difference between a moments of metta that are just metta >and moments of metta that are samatha bhavana is the accompanying >(or immediately following) understanding of those moments as kusala. > > > > Is that how you understand it too? > > > > > =============== > > > In the first paragrpah you say that kusala cannot arise when there isn't (or is rare) kusala. In the 2nd paragrpah you describe that a person who is accomplished in samatha has kusala arise due to the fact of samatha being a habit. > > > =============== > > > > I don't say that kusala *cannot* arise, but that it cannot be >induced to arise by following a particular method or practice. > > What about studying Dhamma and yoniso manasikara? > =============== J: The idea that undertaking Dhamma study will induce kusala to arise would be similarly mistaken, as I see it. Jon #102626 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:48 pm Subject: Re: Reply to Ken O /with a new subject heading jonoabb Hi pt (102527) > To makes sure I understand: > > Path 1 would not have jhana as basis of the actual attainment, i.e. s/he would have developed jhana previously, but then later when the time for enlightenment comes, there would be just insight. I.e. there would be no attaining jhana and then emerging from it to consider the jhana factors and attainment as a result of that, as it is with path 3. Right? > =============== J: First, a general comment about the sutta. It is not a teaching of the Buddha setting out different paths to be followed. It is a statement of Ven. Ananda classifying (after the event) the ways by which enlightenment has been attained. Nobody can elect to achieve enlightenment in a particular way. It happens as it does. Thus, a person who has attained jhana has no way of knowing whether or not enlightenment will have jhana as basis. So for both the "path 1" and the "path 3" person, there may be both insight into (just past) jhana citta at times and insight unrelated to jhana at times. But for one person enlightenment occurred at a time when the jhana citta was the object of insight while for the other it occurred when other dhammas were the object of insight. That's as I understand it anyway. > =============== > > J: Any moment of kusala that is accompanied by understanding of the level that knows the difference between kusala and akusala is samatha. So the difference between a moments of metta that are just metta and moments of > metta that are samatha bhavana is the accompanying (or immediately following) > understanding of those moments as kusala. > > pt: > To me here it seems that you're describing path 2 here - i.e. someone first develops insight and then samatha follows as a result, but no jhana. So it seems you are in fact describing a vipassanaa-yaanika beginner's path here. > =============== J: In that exchange with Alex I was talking about samatha only (nothing to do with insight). > =============== > So how would a beginner develop samatha by path 1? > =============== J: See my general remark above. Samatha is developed, and insight is developed, as and when there are conditions for either to occur. Neither can be induced by following a particular course of action. Jon #102627 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Inducing samatha jonoabb Hi Herman (102596) > I've always wondered about the following, and I thought this would be a good > opportunity to ask. > > What is there to differentiate between what is understood as kusala by > ignorance, and what is understood as kusala by panna? Or in other words, how > is panna known? > =============== A very good question. If I may, I'd suggest that "ignorance" in your statement be replaced by "wrong view", since it wrong view that takes things (dhammas) to be other than they are (whereas ignorance is simply ignorant of things). So the question is, how is sati/panna to be known from wrong view? There is no hard and fast rule, but there are some pointers. In fact the texts are full of descriptions of what panna knows. For example, the object of sati/panna is one or other of the dhammas spoken of at length by the Buddha. So if what is being "known" is not a dhamma (or a characteristic of a dhamma), then it can't be panna. Also, sati/panna begins at the beginning level and progresses gradually to deeper levels. Thus, in the beginning stage it known nama as nama and rupa as rupa. Again, dhammas are experienced as mere impersonal elements. And so on. So the short answer is that only by having the teachings as a point of reference can panna can be known from wrong view (hence the importance of a correct intellectual understanding of the teachings). Hoping this addresses the point you were raising. Jon #102628 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:52 pm Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability jonoabb Hi MikeNZ (102550) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Dear DSG, > > I keep seeing the argument that "because of anatta there is no control". Can someone please explain this? I'm afraid that the logic is beyond me. > =============== J: I think the argument stated in full goes something like this: Because all dhammas are anatta, there can be no control of dhammas. So it concerns the world of dhammas, rather than the conventional world. Dhammas arise and fall away according to multiple and complex conditions. > =============== > Perhaps I can give an example. A computer-controlled vehicle has no self but does have some control of trajectory... > =============== J: Yes, there are lots of instances of "control" in the conventional world. But even at this level, there is no such thing as *absolute* control. For example, taking your computer-controlled vehicle, there is a limit to the gradient up which the vehicle can be propelled. Jon #102629 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] consciosness, contact, feeling, perception happen simulteneously upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 11/22/2009 11:31:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, Herman, all "Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality. " - MN9 "what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them." - MN43 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html Note: Contact is listed with feeling, perception, volition. ----------------------------------------------- Yes, those 4 plus attention constitute nama in that definition given in MN 9. So what? That has no bearing on whether contact and feeling co-occur or not. MN 9 deals with the definition of 'nama', and not with sequencing of activities. As for the material in MN 43, you are taking that to imply that feeling, perception, and cognition are simultaneous activities, because they are described there as inseparable. I also view them as inseparable, but not as simultaneous. Following upon feeling occurs perception/recognition, and that may further develop into cognition/conceptualizing. In any case, contact and attention are not involved in the MN 43 material, and there is no reason to relate that material to the definition of nama given in MN 9. -------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ============================== With metta, Howard P. S. It still is, of course, possible that feeling always occurs at the moment of contact. I don't assert that this is false. However, I have not been shown any sutta that attests to that simultaneity. #102630 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:16 pm Subject: Re: Reply to Ken O /with a new subject heading ptaus1 Hi Jon, Thanks for your reply. > J: First, a general comment about the sutta. It is not a teaching of the Buddha setting out different paths to be followed. It is a statement of Ven. Ananda classifying (after the event) the ways by which enlightenment has been attained. > > Nobody can elect to achieve enlightenment in a particular way. It happens as it does. Thus, a person who has attained jhana has no way of knowing whether or not enlightenment will have jhana as basis. > > So for both the "path 1" and the "path 3" person, there may be both insight into (just past) jhana citta at times and insight unrelated to jhana at times. But for one person enlightenment occurred at a time when the jhana citta was the object of insight while for the other it occurred when other dhammas were the object of insight. pt: Sounds plausible. > > > J: Any moment of kusala that is accompanied by understanding of the level that knows the difference between kusala and akusala is samatha. So the difference between a moments of metta that are just metta and moments of > > metta that are samatha bhavana is the accompanying (or immediately following) > > understanding of those moments as kusala. > > > > pt: > > To me here it seems that you're describing path 2 here - i.e. someone first develops insight and then samatha follows as a result, but no jhana. So it seems you are in fact describing a vipassanaa-yaanika beginner's path here. > > J: In that exchange with Alex I was talking about samatha only (nothing to do with insight). pt: Okay, I'll rephrase the question. How is a moment of samatha defined as "kusala that is accompanied by understanding of the level that knows the difference between kusala and akusala" different from a moment of jhana? I.e. what I'm looking for is the third step in the progression you outlined: 1. "moments of metta that are just metta" 2. "moments of metta that are samatha bhavana is the accompanying (or immediately following) understanding of those moments as kusala" - this of course is the samatha bhavana level accessible by dry insight practice. 3. jhana - what's the difference between 2 and 3, and how does 2 become 3? Best wishes pt #102631 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Fri, 20/11/09, upasaka@... wrote: >... However, as usual, I am looking for a sutta, because suttas are what I consider to be, with great certainty and in the overwhelming number of cases, the word of the Buddha. The simultaneous mutual conditioning of vi~n~nana and namarupa is laid out explicitly in the Sheaves of Reeds Sutta, and I am looking for something comparable with regard to phassa and vedana. .... S: Here, the simultaneous mutual conditioning of vi~n~naana and naamaruupa refers to the moment the birth consciousness (patisandhi citta) arises [vi~n~naana], accompanied by cetasikas [naama in this context] and the heart-base (haddaya-ruupa), which on this one occasion arises at the same moment as the citta and cetasikas, all conditioned by past kamma. Now, still referring to the same example and in particular to include phassa and vedana in a Sutta-pitaka quote as well, try this: "Here [in the present life] there is rebirth-linking, which is consciousness, there is precipitation [in the womb], which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is base [for contact]; there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling; thus these five ideas [S: dhammaa] in being-as-rearising here have their conditions in action (kamma) done in the past." [Patisambhidamagga, Treatise on Knowledge, 1, 275] S: Note it says, at such a time, "there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling". For the Pali for the above: "Idha pa.tisandhi vi~n~naa.na.m, okkanti naamaruupa.m, pasaado aayatana.m, phu.t.tho phasso, vedayita.m vedanaaa; ime pa~nca dhammaa idhupapattibhavasmi.m pure katassa kammassa paccayaa." S: In other words, at the moment of birth, conditioned by past kamma, there is, as you point out, "The simultaneous mutual conditioning of vi~n~nana and namarupa". This includes the heart-base, vedana and phassa. All these dhammas are conditioned to arise together at that moment. Subsequently, phassa and vedana always arise with each and every citta, but the sense-bases and heart-base arise prior to the citta, and as you know, last for up to 17 cittas. .... >My own (quite possibly flawed) observation is that phassa *precedes* and conditions feeling, and I am seeking a contrary statement by the Buddha that asserts their simultaneity. ... S: If you think/observe that phassa precedes vedana, you must be saying that some cittas (those accompanied by vedana) are not accompanied by phassa. For these cittas, how is the object contacted? When we read about "the six classes of contact" in so many suttas, such as the Chachakka Sutta, M 148, which kinds of consciousness, do you suggest, can arise without contact? Metta Sarah ======== #102632 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta and uncontrollability szmicio Dear Nina, I am happy it can help you. I also like some recent Alex posts: That on feelings and kusala development possible ;> Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > that is a very good example from daily life, and I find it very > helpful. A good reminder; it is not me, not me!!! > Nina. #102633 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:33 pm Subject: Re: present moment diary. gazita2002 hallo Nina, Basically, I have been sending txt to Jill as is more convenient. So the messages are usually very short, eg. a deep meaning of dukkha:- cannot help having nama and rupa. She does appreciate the timely little txts and often replies immediately whereas emailing doesnt seem to get to her all the time. It also helps me as I tend to look for 'little treasures' to send her, Patience, courrage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Azita and Sarah, > Azita, please tell us more, so that we can appreciate and learn, > > Nina. > #102634 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/23/2009 8:32:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, --- On Fri, 20/11/09, upasaka@... wrote: >... However, as usual, I am looking for a sutta, because suttas are what I consider to be, with great certainty and in the overwhelming number of cases, the word of the Buddha. The simultaneous mutual conditioning of vi~n~nana and namarupa is laid out explicitly in the Sheaves of Reeds Sutta, and I am looking for something comparable with regard to phassa and vedana. .... S: Here, the simultaneous mutual conditioning of vi~n~naana and naamaruupa refers to the moment the birth consciousness (patisandhi citta) arises [vi~n~naana], accompanied by cetasikas [naama in this context] and the heart-base (haddaya-ruupa), which on this one occasion arises at the same moment as the citta and cetasikas, all conditioned by past kamma. Now, still referring to the same example and in particular to include phassa and vedana in a Sutta-pitaka quote as well, try this: "Here [in the present life] there is rebirth-linking, which is consciousness, there is precipitation [in the womb], which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is base [for contact]; there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling; thus these five ideas [S: dhammaa] in being-as-rearising here have their conditions in action (kamma) done in the past." [Patisambhidamagga, Treatise on Knowledge, 1, 275] S: Note it says, at such a time, "there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling". ----------------------------------------------------- This is certainly close to suggesting simultaneity, though I don't find the simultaneity unambiguous. Moreover, I don't consider the PTSM to consist of suttas, but rather a semi-Abhidhammikan (and/or Commentarial) synopsis, and not the sort of sutta statement I'm looking for. But this is the best attempt at a sutta reference I've been provided with, and I thank you for it, Sarah. -------------------------------------------------------- For the Pali for the above: "Idha pa.tisandhi vi~n~naa.na.m, okkanti naamaruupa.m, pasaado aayatana.m, phu.t.tho phasso, vedayita.m vedanaaa; ime pa~nca dhammaa idhupapattibhavasmi.m pure katassa kammassa paccayaa." S: In other words, at the moment of birth, conditioned by past kamma, there is, as you point out, "The simultaneous mutual conditioning of vi~n~nana and namarupa". This includes the heart-base, vedana and phassa. All these dhammas are conditioned to arise together at that moment. Subsequently, phassa and vedana always arise with each and every citta, ----------------------------------------------------- That is not clear. It may well be so, though, that there is no occuring of contact without simultaneous feeling of the contacted object. But it may also be so that the contact occurs first, immediately precipitating the subsequent operation of feeling. ----------------------------------------------------- but the sense-bases and heart-base arise prior to the citta, and as you know, last for up to 17 cittas. .... >My own (quite possibly flawed) observation is that phassa *precedes* and conditions feeling, and I am seeking a contrary statement by the Buddha that asserts their simultaneity. ... S: If you think/observe that phassa precedes vedana, you must be saying that some cittas (those accompanied by vedana) are not accompanied by phassa. -------------------------------------------------------- Yes, for the contact has already occurred. Contact is an event, not a quality. it needn't keep on happening. ------------------------------------------------------ For these cittas, how is the object contacted? When we read about "the six classes of contact" in so many suttas, such as the Chachakka Sutta, M 148, which kinds of consciousness, do you suggest, can arise without contact? ----------------------------------------------------- I've explained what I have in mind. An analogy: A person takes the hand of his/her child. That is contact. It is an event that has now occured. As a result, they can then walk together for a good while with no second taking of the child's hand necessary. ---------------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102635 From: Lukas Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness szmicio Dear Howard, Nina, Here I want to express my feelings on Dhamma, and share my appreciation to tipitaka and commentaries. I remember Acharn's citta now. This was so helpful. > > N: Citta and its accompanying cetasikas fall away > immediately and > > when citta arises in a mind-door process, it is > another moment, > > accompanied again by cetasikas performing their > functions. > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > H: You are providing a litany, Nina, but not a sutta. > ------- > N: Ah, that won't hurt! This is Abhidhamma and at first you > may not > like hearing it, but later on, perhaps you may. I mention > basics > about citta and cetasikas, because that gives some > foundation > knowledge. This is a support for awareness and > understanding later > on. We have to study so that the foundation knowledge (for > all of > us!) is correct, otherwise there may be hindrances on the > way. > We cannot expect to always find suttas that prove the > abhidhamma, > although there is Abhidhamma in the Suttanta. L: This is very true. Howard you say it's like litany, but it isnt. I am so greatful for citta cetasika differentiation. it help me so much. You can think about anything, litany. But this is conditioned. Some people saying the 3rd Pitaka is not Buddha teachings, cause it sounds like not him. Or something else like citta cetasika are only words. This all does not help,cause it is not saddha. It is doubt. But belive me cittocetasiko dhammo is so great distinction made by Buddha himself. In the whole universe only Buddha could make such accurate distinction. After hearing ayatana, dhatu, khandhas, you hear cittocetasko dhammo and it is so great. citta has its own characteristic and also cetasika. You can appreciate it. citta has the characteristic of experiencing and cetasika helps experience. Buddha was so great that he saw those 2 characteristic of conditioned nama. All disappreciation can be akusala, a hindrance. I can just say this. I cannot change your way of thinking. conditioned. No one can change, even you. I just wanted to say: more saddha. Try to have more saddha! Dont belive anyone just feel it. Best wishes Lukas #102636 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 11/23/2009 9:51:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Howard, Nina, Here I want to express my feelings on Dhamma, and share my appreciation to tipitaka and commentaries. I remember Acharn's citta now. This was so helpful. > > N: Citta and its accompanying cetasikas fall away > immediately and > > when citta arises in a mind-door process, it is > another moment, > > accompanied again by cetasikas performing their > functions. > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > H: You are providing a litany, Nina, but not a sutta. > ------- > N: Ah, that won't hurt! This is Abhidhamma and at first you > may not > like hearing it, but later on, perhaps you may. I mention > basics > about citta and cetasikas, because that gives some > foundation > knowledge. This is a support for awareness and > understanding later > on. We have to study so that the foundation knowledge (for > all of > us!) is correct, otherwise there may be hindrances on the > way. > We cannot expect to always find suttas that prove the > abhidhamma, > although there is Abhidhamma in the Suttanta. L: This is very true. Howard you say it's like litany, but it isnt. ----------------------------------------------- It is not the providing of a sutta that makes the simultaneity point. It is mere assertion. ------------------------------------------------ I am so greatful for citta cetasika differentiation. it help me so much. You can think about anything, litany. But this is conditioned. Some people saying the 3rd Pitaka is not Buddha teachings, cause it sounds like not him. Or something else like citta cetasika are only words. This all does not help,cause it is not saddha. It is doubt. --------------------------------------------------- I am not a slavish believer. If you wish to call that doubt, go right ahead. -------------------------------------------------- But belive me cittocetasiko dhammo is so great distinction made by Buddha himself. In the whole universe only Buddha could make such accurate distinction. After hearing ayatana, dhatu, khandhas, you hear cittocetasko dhammo and it is so great. citta has its own characteristic and also cetasika. You can appreciate it. citta has the characteristic of experiencing and cetasika helps experience. Buddha was so great that he saw those 2 characteristic of conditioned nama. -------------------------------------------------- What makes you think that I don't distinguish consciousness, other mental operations, and rupas? I do distinguish them. I have no idea why you raise this matter. ------------------------------------------------- All disappreciation can be akusala, a hindrance. -------------------------------------------------- You are recommending mindless faith, it seems to me, and labeling honest evaluation as unwholesome. So do "true believers" of all stripes. You must think that the Kalama Sutta advocates hindrances! ----------------------------------------------------- I can just say this. I cannot change your way of thinking. conditioned. No one can change, even you. I just wanted to say: more saddha. Try to have more saddha! Dont belive anyone just feel it. --------------------------------------------------- The saddha I believe in is a confidence based in experience. I do NOT accept positions on the basis of faith (in the Christian sense of 'faith'). ------------------------------------------------- Best wishes Lukas ============================ With metta, Howard Confidence Born of Knowing, Not Faith /'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.'/ (From the Kalama Sutta) #102637 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. nilovg Dear Azita, Can you share your little treasures also with us? What is Jill's mail address? She might like to receive more mail. Nina. Op 23-nov-2009, om 15:33 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > She does appreciate the timely little txts and often replies > immediately whereas emailing doesnt seem to get to her all the time. > It also helps me as I tend to look for 'little treasures' to send her, #102638 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness szmicio Dear Howard I think you may misunderstood me ;> > L: This is very true. > Howard you say it's like litany, but it isnt. > ----------------------------------------------- > It is not the providing of a sutta that makes the simultaneity point. > It is mere assertion. > ------------------------------------------------ L: Why do you think you need to search a prof in Suttanta? I cannot get it. why? > I am so greatful for citta cetasika differentiation. it help me so much. > You can think about anything, litany. But this is conditioned. Some people > saying the 3rd Pitaka is not Buddha teachings, cause it sounds like not > him. Or something else like citta cetasika are only words. > This all does not help,cause it is not saddha. It is doubt. > --------------------------------------------------- > I am not a slavish believer. If you wish to call that doubt, go right > ahead. > -------------------------------------------------- L: saddha is never slavish believing. Here you are right, no blind belifes. But I mean saddha the truthfulness to Buddha words. I think it's very hard to practice Dhamma, when you think the scientists made up 3rd Pitaka, for example. Especially to me it really does not help. Saddha, that was said, is the beginning to all kinds of kusala. I understand no blind belief, but without trust to Buddha words it is really hard to develop kusala. > But belive me cittocetasiko dhammo is so great distinction made by Buddha > himself. In the whole universe only Buddha could make such accurate > distinction. After hearing ayatana, dhatu, khandhas, you hear cittocetasko dhammo > and it is so great. citta has its own characteristic and also cetasika. You > can appreciate it. > citta has the characteristic of experiencing and cetasika helps experience. > Buddha was so great that he saw those 2 characteristic of conditioned nama. > -------------------------------------------------- > What makes you think that I don't distinguish consciousness, other > mental operations, and rupas? I do distinguish them. I have no idea why you > raise this matter. > ------------------------------------------------- L: I raised this, because it is perfect. > All disappreciation can be akusala, a hindrance. > -------------------------------------------------- > You are recommending mindless faith, it seems to me, and labeling > honest evaluation as unwholesome. So do "true believers" of all stripes. You > must think that the Kalama Sutta advocates hindrances! > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > I can just say this. I cannot change your way of thinking. conditioned. No > one can change, even you. > > I just wanted to say: more saddha. Try to have more saddha! Dont belive > anyone just feel it. > --------------------------------------------------- > The saddha I believe in is a confidence based in experience. I do NOT > accept positions on the basis of faith (in the Christian sense of 'faith'). > ------------------------------------------------- L: You are very strict to kalama sutta now. With kusala or akusala cittas? Best wishes Lukas #102639 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 11/23/2009 12:28:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Howard I think you may misunderstood me ;> > L: This is very true. > Howard you say it's like litany, but it isnt. > ----------------------------------------------- > It is not the providing of a sutta that makes the simultaneity point. > It is mere assertion. > ------------------------------------------------ L: Why do you think you need to search a prof in Suttanta? I cannot get it. why? ----------------------------------------------------- Because I have confidence that the suttas are overwhelmingly the direct word of the Buddha, and I do not have such a view with regard to the Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------- > I am so greatful for citta cetasika differentiation. it help me so much. > You can think about anything, litany. But this is conditioned. Some people > saying the 3rd Pitaka is not Buddha teachings, cause it sounds like not > him. Or something else like citta cetasika are only words. > This all does not help,cause it is not saddha. It is doubt. > --------------------------------------------------- > I am not a slavish believer. If you wish to call that doubt, go right > ahead. > -------------------------------------------------- L: saddha is never slavish believing. ---------------------------------------------------- Well, I gave you my understanding of what saddha is. ----------------------------------------------------- Here you are right, no blind belifes. But I mean saddha the truthfulness to Buddha words. ------------------------------------------------------- When I read the word of the Buddha in a sutta, in most cases I am inclined to believe it. ----------------------------------------------------- I think it's very hard to practice Dhamma, when you think the scientists made up 3rd Pitaka, for example. --------------------------------------------------- Scientists? ---------------------------------------------------- Especially to me it really does not help. -------------------------------------------------- If you believe that the Buddha spoke the (content of) Abhidhamma Pitaka in the Tavatimsa Heaven, fine. I do not. I won't pretend that I do. ------------------------------------------------- Saddha, that was said, is the beginning to all kinds of kusala. -------------------------------------------------- Depends on what one means by "saddha". ------------------------------------------------ I understand no blind belief, but without trust to Buddha words it is really hard to develop kusala. ------------------------------------------------- I DO trust what I consider to be the words of the Buddha. But even there, I will not accept them on the sole basis of the thought "This contemplative is our teacher." ------------------------------------------------- > But belive me cittocetasiko dhammo is so great distinction made by Buddha > himself. In the whole universe only Buddha could make such accurate > distinction. After hearing ayatana, dhatu, khandhas, you hear cittocetasko dhammo > and it is so great. citta has its own characteristic and also cetasika. You > can appreciate it. > citta has the characteristic of experiencing and cetasika helps experience. > Buddha was so great that he saw those 2 characteristic of conditioned nama. > -------------------------------------------------- > What makes you think that I don't distinguish consciousness, other > mental operations, and rupas? I do distinguish them. I have no idea why you > raise this matter. > ------------------------------------------------- L: I raised this, because it is perfect. ---------------------------------------------------- What? So was my mother's graham cracker pie, but that has no relevance to what is being discussed here! -------------------------------------------------- > All disappreciation can be akusala, a hindrance. > -------------------------------------------------- > You are recommending mindless faith, it seems to me, and labeling > honest evaluation as unwholesome. So do "true believers" of all stripes. You > must think that the Kalama Sutta advocates hindrances! > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > I can just say this. I cannot change your way of thinking. conditioned. No > one can change, even you. > > I just wanted to say: more saddha. Try to have more saddha! Dont belive > anyone just feel it. > --------------------------------------------------- > The saddha I believe in is a confidence based in experience. I do NOT > accept positions on the basis of faith (in the Christian sense of 'faith'). > ------------------------------------------------- L: You are very strict to kalama sutta now. With kusala or akusala cittas? ------------------------------------------------- I don't understand this last question of yours. What are you asking? --------------------------------------------------- Best wishes Lukas ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102640 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness szmicio Dear Howard, Ok I understand now. > L: Why do you think you need to search a prof in Suttanta? I cannot get > it. why? > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Because I have confidence that the suttas are overwhelmingly the > direct word of the Buddha, and I do not have such a view with regard to the > Abhidhamma. > ---------------------------------------------------- L: Yes, ok. I wonder on what basis you think like that ;> I am studing Theravada few years from now, and I never read that 3rd Pitaka is spoiled. Maybe it's the matter of the kind of text we read. But in tipitaka there is no such thing. > Here you are right, no blind belifes. But I mean saddha the truthfulness > to Buddha words. > ------------------------------------------------------- > When I read the word of the Buddha in a sutta, in most cases I am > inclined to believe it. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > I think it's very hard to practice Dhamma, when you think the scientists > made up 3rd Pitaka, for example. > --------------------------------------------------- > Scientists? > ---------------------------------------------------- L: I am refering to some ideas like Abhidhamma is made by some monk scentists. I dont know the origination of this belief. > Especially to me it really does not help. > -------------------------------------------------- > If you believe that the Buddha spoke the (content of) Abhidhamma > Pitaka in the Tavatimsa Heaven, fine. I do not. I won't pretend that I do. > ------------------------------------------------- L: For sure he did. In heaven or not, doesnt matter, who can know the Buddhas abilities. What really matters in this case that citta cetasika is so helpful. It's really perfect vibhanga and it can be appreciated. It's so nice to hear Dhamma and then be influanced by that. Again and Again. Thus the 4 Noble Truths are realized very gradually. I dont experience directly citta or cetasika now. But I can get what it points out, by past reflections that arosen in me with kusala citta. So great, so accuarte, so helpful. > Saddha, that was said, is the beginning to all kinds of kusala. > -------------------------------------------------- > Depends on what one means by "saddha". > ------------------------------------------------ L: Different meanings. I refer here to have faith, trust in Buddha teachings. This is merely my opnion. I think that without trust to Buddha words there cannot be any development. > L: I raised this, because it is perfect. > ---------------------------------------------------- > What? So was my mother's graham cracker pie, but that has no relevance > to what is being discussed here! > -------------------------------------------------- L: I said that citta and cetasika differentiation is perfect. It's releveant. > L: You are very strict to kalama sutta now. With kusala or akusala cittas? > ------------------------------------------------- > I don't understand this last question of yours. What are you asking? > --------------------------------------------------- L: You can reflect Dhamma(Kalama Sutta) in kusala way and in akusala way. Best wishes Lukas #102641 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 11/23/2009 2:09:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Howard, Ok I understand now. > L: Why do you think you need to search a prof in Suttanta? I cannot get > it. why? > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Because I have confidence that the suttas are overwhelmingly the > direct word of the Buddha, and I do not have such a view with regard to the > Abhidhamma. > ---------------------------------------------------- L: Yes, ok. I wonder on what basis you think like that ;> I am studing Theravada few years from now, and I never read that 3rd Pitaka is spoiled. Maybe it's the matter of the kind of text we read. But in tipitaka there is no such thing. ----------------------------------------------------- I don't think of it as "spoiled," but simply not the word of the Buddha. --------------------------------------------------- > Here you are right, no blind belifes. But I mean saddha the truthfulness > to Buddha words. > ------------------------------------------------------- > When I read the word of the Buddha in a sutta, in most cases I am > inclined to believe it. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > I think it's very hard to practice Dhamma, when you think the scientists > made up 3rd Pitaka, for example. > --------------------------------------------------- > Scientists? > ---------------------------------------------------- L: I am refering to some ideas like Abhidhamma is made by some monk scentists. I dont know the origination of this belief. -------------------------------------------------- Not scientists. Scholars. ----------------------------------------------- > Especially to me it really does not help. > -------------------------------------------------- > If you believe that the Buddha spoke the (content of) Abhidhamma > Pitaka in the Tavatimsa Heaven, fine. I do not. I won't pretend that I do. > ------------------------------------------------- L: For sure he did. In heaven or not, doesnt matter, who can know the Buddhas abilities. -------------------------------------------------- For SURE he did? Wow, there is very little that I know "for sure." I guess you have an inside line. ;-) ------------------------------------------------- What really matters in this case that citta cetasika is so helpful. It's really perfect vibhanga and it can be appreciated. It's so nice to hear Dhamma and then be influanced by that. Again and Again. Thus the 4 Noble Truths are realized very gradually. I dont experience directly citta or cetasika now. But I can get what it points out, by past reflections that arosen in me with kusala citta. So great, so accuarte, so helpful. > Saddha, that was said, is the beginning to all kinds of kusala. > -------------------------------------------------- > Depends on what one means by "saddha". > ------------------------------------------------ L: Different meanings. I refer here to have faith, trust in Buddha teachings. This is merely my opnion. I think that without trust to Buddha words there cannot be any development. > L: I raised this, because it is perfect. > ---------------------------------------------------- > What? So was my mother's graham cracker pie, but that has no relevance > to what is being discussed here! > -------------------------------------------------- L: I said that citta and cetasika differentiation is perfect. It's releveant. ------------------------------------------------- The fact that consciousness, mental concomitants, and rupas are distinct is relevant to phassa and vedana being concurrent or not? No, it's not. -------------------------------------------------- > L: You are very strict to kalama sutta now. With kusala or akusala cittas? > ------------------------------------------------- > I don't understand this last question of yours. What are you asking? > --------------------------------------------------- L: You can reflect Dhamma(Kalama Sutta) in kusala way and in akusala way. ----------------------------------------------------- If you like to judge my way, be my guest. ---------------------------------------------------- Best wishes Lukas ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102642 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta and uncontrollability egberdina Hi RobertK, 2009/11/23 rjkjp1 > > > ++++ > dear Mike > yes and in the same way a human, dog, insect is programed to perform > certain actions and have certain beliefs. How ever, unlike your computer car > there was never any original programmer- no person, no God, no one at all, > who set up the program. In fact no beginning can be discerned.. > Also this program- comprising of paccaya- conditions, is much more more > complex because it is very gradually changing, aeon by aeon, millienia by > millenia, century by century, year by year, and in fact moment by moment. > I don't want to alarm you, but up to this point what you wrote is a very good synopsis of the theory of evolution of species by natural selection. Cheers Herman #102643 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:58 am Subject: Re: Anatta and uncontrollability chewsadhu Dear Dhamma friends, I think it is "control" in the sense of when it is in favor of the conditions. In the ultimate sense, there are no "I control" which can perform act according to "I" wish. For your example on the computer control of something. The computer still need its conditions. One of the important conditions for the computer is the electric power. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi MikeNZ > > (102550) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > Dear DSG, > > > > I keep seeing the argument that "because of anatta there is no control". Can someone please explain this? I'm afraid that the logic is beyond me. > > =============== > > J: I think the argument stated in full goes something like this: Because all dhammas are anatta, there can be no control of dhammas. > > So it concerns the world of dhammas, rather than the conventional world. > > Dhammas arise and fall away according to multiple and complex conditions. > > > =============== > > Perhaps I can give an example. A computer-controlled vehicle has no self but does have some control of trajectory... > > =============== > > J: Yes, there are lots of instances of "control" in the conventional world. > > But even at this level, there is no such thing as *absolute* control. For example, taking your computer-controlled vehicle, there is a limit to the gradient up which the vehicle can be propelled. > > Jon > #102644 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:58 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (73) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 9.Groups of Ruupas (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ---------------------------------- As we have seen, kamma produces ruupa in a living being from the moment the rebirth-consciousness arises. Kamma produces ruupa at each of the three moments of citta: at its arising moment, at the moment of its presence and at the moment of its falling away. In each group of ruupas produced by kamma there is the element of heat (utu), which is one of the four Great Elements, and this begins to produce new ruupas at the moment of presence of rebirth-consciousness, thus, not at the arising moment of rebirth-consciousness. The element of heat produces other ruupas during the moments of its presence, it cannot produce ruupas at its arising moment [Note 4]. It originates a pure octad and from that moment on it produces, throughout life, ruupas during the moments of its presence [Note 5]. Nutritive essence present in food that has been swallowed [Note 6], produces ruupas and it supports and sustains the body. Rúpas produced by nutrition arise only in the body of living beings. Nutrition produces pure octads and also groups of rúpa with lightness, plasticity and wieldiness. Nutritive essense is one of the inseparable ruupas present in each group of rúpas. Nutritive essence in nutriment-originated octads originates a further octad with nutritive essence and thus, it links up the occurrences of several octads. The "Visuddhimagga" (XX, 37) states that nutriment taken on one day can thus sustain the body for as long as seven days [Note 7]. --------------- [Note 4] Temperature and nutrition, ruupas which produce other ruupas, do not produce these at the moment of their arising, since they are then weak, but they produce ruupas during the moments of presence, before they fall away. The duration of ruupa, when compared with the duration of citta, is as long as seventeen moments of citta, thus there are fifteen moments of presence of rúpa. Citta, however, produces rúpas at its arising moment since it is then strong. [Note 5] The heat-element present in a group which is produced by temperature, no matter whether of materiality outside or of the body, can, in its turn, produce a pure octad and in this way several occurrences of octads can be linked up. In the same way, the heat-element present in groups of ruupas of the body, produced by kamma or citta can, in its turn, produce a pure octad, and the heat-element present in that octad can produce another octad, and so on. In this way several occurrences of octads are linked up. Temperature produced by nutrition can also, in its turn, produce another octad. [Note 6] See Ch 2. The substance of morsel-made food (kaba.linkaaro aahaaro) contains nutritive essence, ojaa. When food has been swallowed the nutritive essence pervades the body and supports it. [Note 7] Also nutriment smeared on the body originates materiality, according to the "Visuddhimagga". Some creams, for example, nourish the skin. ------------------------------ Chapter 9.Groups of Ruupas to be continued. with metta, Han #102645 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and uncontrollability kenhowardau Hi Herman and Mike, ----------- <. . .> H: > I can understand the confusion. I do not see a connection between anatta and control either. I think what people mean, but don't say, is that self is not an actual condition that has any influence on anything, so therefore, there is no self that controls anything. ------------ That's not the usual way of putting it, but I think we are in agreement. I think you are saying self is not a dhamma and therefore it can't condition anything. If so, why do you say that you can't see a connection between anatta and no-control? Haven't you just given it? --------------------- H: > I can live with that, but, of course, that doesn't mean there is no control. There is definitely control, it is just not self that exercises it. ---------------------- What then is that control? Are you referring to Dependent Origination? Are you saying that, because a dhamma arises dependent on other dhammas, it can be said to be 'controlled' by those other dhammas? Spill it out, Herman, don't leave us guessing! :-) Ken H #102646 From: "James" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness buddhatrue Hi Lukas (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > L: For sure he did. In heaven or not, doesnt matter, who can know the Buddhas abilities. What really matters in this case that citta cetasika is so helpful. It's really perfect vibhanga and it can be appreciated. It's so nice to hear Dhamma and then be influanced by that. Again and Again. Thus the 4 Noble Truths are realized very gradually. > I dont experience directly citta or cetasika now. But I can get what it points out, by past reflections that arosen in me with kusala citta. So great, so accuarte, so helpful. > James: I think you are giving faith a bad rep. As you have admitted, you haven't directly experienced citta or cetasika but you are absolutely convinced that the Buddha taught them and that they are 'perfect'. That is a blind type of faith which doesn't follow logic. Faith in the Triple Gem is commendable, but that faith should be reached through personal experience. If you cannot personally experience 17 moments of citta for every one moment of rupa, it is silly to have strong faith in that (especially since such a thing isn't central to the Buddha's teaching of the four noble truths). For example, even though I don't have direct memory of past lifetimes, I have faith in rebirth because of some personal experiences, that it makes sense, and that it is central to the Buddha's teaching (which is 'perfect'). It is also wrong to tell Howard that if he doesn't have 'faith' in the Abhidhamma his mind will be unwholesome. True faith in the Triple Gem can't be coerced out of others. Metta, James #102647 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/11/22 sarah abbott > Hi Herman, > > S: There is the seeing and hearing of different objects and on account of > the visible objects and sounds experienced, we conceptualise in different > ways. The sound of the waterfall is not the same as the sound of Jon's > voice. If we're in a room of people and Jon coughs, I recognise it as his > cough because the sounds are different from someone else's cough. Actually, > it's just sound heard, but each sound is distinct, with its particular > characteristic. The same applies to visible objects - even though it's just > visible object, each v.o. is marked by sanna and there's very little chance > of thereby confusing the stove with Jon:). No visible objects or sounds > experience anything, however. Just rupas arising and falling away. > > This is an intricate topic, so feel free to pursue it. > Thanks for the invite to continue. There is not much to go on with, though. You maintain that rupas don't experience anything, and I maintain that all our behaviour supports the complete opposite view, namely that we interact with some of what is seen, heard, felt, etc as though it is sentient. > ... > >My interest is in what people do, not in what they say they believe :-) I > sincerely hope that is not a harsh thing to say. > ... > S: It doesn't sound at all harsh, but I think it's an unhelpful approach. > For example, we might dwell on some past unwholesome deed that someone > performed and not appreciate their present wholesome qualities. In that > case, the reality is just our present akusala citta isn't it? > > Isn't it more helpful to let the past go, not dwelling on someone's deeds, > but to listen and share helpful reminders in the present? > > Perhaps I've misunderstood you. > Yes, you have possibly misunderstood. I'm not at all concerned about past deeds or who did them. It is all about whether rupas experience anything or not, and how we could come to any conclusions about it. I can only reiterate that what people do suggests that they do attribute sentience to what they see, hear, feel etc. Would you disagree with that? Could I ask you why it is you say that rupas are not sentient? (other than the already given that it says so somewhere ?:-)) Cheers Herman #102648 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling egberdina Hello Alex, 2009/11/23 truth_aerator > Hi Herman, Howard all, > > Not only that but nama (mentality) includes: "sensation, perception, > intention, contact, attention" this, friend, is called Nama (Name, > mentality). > > Vedana, sanna, cetana, phasso, manasikaro – idam vuccatavuso, namam MN9 > > Thanks for all the research. I feel that it might be best to mention the many different contexts in which contact is mentioned in MN9, so as to not cater for any prejudicial view :-) Unfortunately, ATO is not responding at the moment, so I cannot do a cut and paste exercise. Perhaps you can do a search yourself when ATO is available, and see the many different ways contact is treated in that one sutta. No need to send them to dsg, I've already made myself familiar with this detail :-). Cheers Herman #102649 From: "sprlrt" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:38 am Subject: Re: More questions about nimitta sprlrt Hi Jon, > Very sorry to hear this. Was looking forward to having you there. Any chance of a change of mind/circumstances? How about for the first week only, and the (other) list's boss - hi Sarah - dropping her taking notes assignment as well, deal? :-) Alberto #102650 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and uncontrollability egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/11/24 kenhowardau > > Hi Herman and Mike, > > ----------- > <. . .> > H: > I can understand the confusion. I do not see a connection between > anatta and control either. I think what people mean, but don't say, is > that self is not an actual condition that has any influence on anything, > so therefore, there is no self that controls anything. > ------------ > > That's not the usual way of putting it, but I think we are in agreement. > I think you are saying self is not a dhamma and therefore it can't > condition anything. > Yeah, that's what I meant. > If so, why do you say that you can't see a connection between anatta and > no-control? Haven't you just given it? > > See below. > --------------------- > H: > I can live with that, but, of course, that doesn't mean there is no > control. There is definitely control, it is just not self that exercises > it. > ---------------------- > > What then is that control? Are you referring to Dependent Origination? > Are you saying that, because a dhamma arises dependent on other dhammas, > it can be said to be 'controlled' by those other dhammas? > > Spill it out, Herman, don't leave us guessing! :-) > I don't think anything I will say will be very dramatic. In your terms, (hopefully) dhammas vary in degrees of strength, there is the domination of weaker factors by stronger ones. See eg adhipati-paccaya and/or* * iddhi-pada. In my terms, when it rains a little, there is a trickle of water in the gutter down into the drain. When there's a cyclone, the gutter, as well as the whole town, overflows. In the first, the gutter controls where the stream of water goes, in the latter the sheer amount of rain dominates the gutter and the town. There is dominance of one thing/factor over another, and that is what is described by the word control. Cheers Herman #102651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about nimitta nilovg Dear Alberto, Op 24-nov-2009, om 10:38 heeft sprlrt het volgende geschreven: > How about for the first week only ------ N: I was looking forward to meet you. Even a shorter time is good. Nina. #102652 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness ajahnjose Dear James, Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu, as alway right to the point with perfection. As per Howard, he is a magnificent man with great knowledge, I will stand by him anytime. Metta. Ajahn Jose signature Venerable Yanatharo, Ajahn Jose --- On Tue, 24/11/09, James wrote: From: James <...> James: I think you are giving faith a bad rep. As you have admitted, you haven't directly experienced citta or cetasika but you are absolutely convinced that the Buddha taught them and that they are 'perfect'. That is a blind type of faith which doesn't follow logic. Faith in the Triple Gem is commendable, but that faith should be reached through personal experience. If you cannot personally experience 17 moments of citta for every one moment of rupa, it is silly to have strong faith in that (especially since such a thing isn't central to the Buddha's teaching of the four noble truths). For example, even though I don't have direct memory of past lifetimes, I have faith in rebirth because of some personal experiences, that it makes sense, and that it is central to the Buddha's teaching (which is 'perfect'). It is also wrong to tell Howard that if he doesn't have 'faith' in the Abhidhamma his mind will be unwholesome. True faith in the Triple Gem can't be coerced out of others. <...> #102653 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:27 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 5 Deeds and their Results There are many types of cittas, moments of consciousness. Cittas can be kusala, wholesome, akusala, unwholesome, or neither kusala nor akusala. The sense-impressions such as seeing or hearing are neither kusala nor akusala, but shortly after they have arisen and fallen away there are cittas which react to the object experienced by the sense-impressions, and they react either in a wholesome way or in an unwholesome way. There are more often akusala cittas which can be rooted in attachment, aversion or ignorance, than kusala cittas which are rooted in non-attachment and non-aversion, and which may be rooted in wisdom as well. Akusala cittas can motivate evil deeds and kusala cittas can motivate good deeds. We read in the Gradual Sayings (V, Book of the Tens, Ch. 17, §8, Due to greed, hatred and delusion) that the Buddha said to the monks: Monks, the taking of life is threefold, I declare. It is motivated by greed, hatred and delusion. Taking what is not given…sexual misconduct…falsehood…spiteful speech…harsh language…idle babble… covetousness…ill-will and wrong view is threefold, I declare. It is motivated by greed, hatred and delusion. Thus, monks, greed is the originator of a chain of causal action, hatred is the originator of a chain of causal action, delusion is the originator of a chain of causal action. By destroying greed, hatred and delusion comes the breaking up of the chain of causal action. We read about a “chain of causal action”. The Påli term kamma, also known in its Sanskrit form karma, literally means action or deed. A good deed brings a pleasant result and a bad deed brings an unpleasant result. The results of our own deeds come to us sooner or later, this is the law of kamma and result, and nobody can alter the operation of this law. ****** Nina. #102655 From: Lukas Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness szmicio Dear James, I can only give my appreciation. This is what I wanted to say, seeing you reacts in very particular way. disappreciaton to Dhamma. I exactly know the kind of thinking you get. The blind faith issues ;> This is tricky. The faith is kusala, I mean the feeling you get when you hearing "develop kusala, abandon akusala" in suttas. You feel this is so deep, so true. And I feel the same with Abhidhamma also. No difference. I just wanted to say this, maybe you can also appreciate this. I dont mean to belive anything. Just appreciation. No need to make some additional thinkings wheather it's true or not. Look for right friendship. How we can appreciate it when someone is saying a good advice and then we enjoy kusala, due to what we've hear from our friend. Then we can appareciate this. And someone can say no right friendship in dhamma, only teachers that can teach. And there is no saddha to right friendship. Even there is no patipati, citta cetasika differentiation can be appreciated. And then you know, only the Blessed One Buddha could say this. I can gave you example, from my life. I've heard that Abhidhamma appeard 500 hundreds years after Buddha parinibbana. And I've heard also disappreciation words of some Buddhists because of that fact. I was younger then now, but still I knew that is no really problem. I had very strict experience in my life according to memeory. Sometimes I couldnt rememebr what I've done yestarday and sometimes I could rememeber what I did 10 years ago. I knew almost the 1/3 of a book i read 10 years ago. words by words. I am not kidding here. sanna can really work big. This is all conditioned. And I thought of Ananada then. Wow those are Anandas accumulations. He could remember so much. It's actuualy how Dhamma works, how it is preserved. Some people sad oh 500 hundreds years impossible , this is spoiled. It's possible belive me ;> Different cittas can preserve Dhamma, but some cittas are out of our range. This experience was on pariyatti level. And It helped me very much. The panna of level of pariyatti can grow very gradually, in each kind of reflections. It needs to be kusala refelction. best wishes Lukas >James: I think you are giving faith a bad rep. > > #102656 From: "James" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness buddhatrue Hi Ven. Yanatharo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ajahn Jose wrote: > > Dear James, Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu, as alway right to the point with perfection. As per Howard, he is a magnificent man with great knowledge, I will stand by him anytime. Metta. Ajahn Jose > > signature > Venerable Yanatharo, Ajahn Jose Thank you for the kind words. It is good to hear from you! I hope that you are doing well and that the cancer is in remission. Metta, James #102657 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:22 am Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 10. nilovg Dear friends, In the “Abhidhammatthavibhåviní” the Commentary to the“Abhidhammatthasaògaha”, Ch 7, we read: “There are seven latent tendencies: sense desire (kåma-råga), aversion (pa.tigha), conceit (måna), wrong view (di.t.thi), doubt (vicikicchå), desire for existence (continued existence, bhavaråga), and ignorance (avijjå).” We read in the Abhidhammatthasangaha : “The latent tendencies are just six.” Thus, the seven latent tendencies are actually six kinds of cetasikas. To conclude from the foregoing explanations of latent tendencies: the latent tendencies, anusayas, are subtle akusala dhammas which are powerful and which lie persistently in the succession of beings’ cittas (anu can be translated as following closely and saya as sleeping). Anusaya is a reality which is powerful because it can only be eradicated by the noble Path (which is lokuttara). As we have seen, the latent tendencies are six kinds of cetasikas: attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) conceit (måna), wrong view (di.t.thi), doubt (vicikicchå) and ignorance (moha) [3]. Second Issue: What is the meaning of the fact that the latent tendencies adhere to feelings and objects? Conclusion of this Issue: When there are still latent tendencies there are conditions for the arising of pariyutthåna defilements (medium defilements arising with the akusala citta) and these must be accompanied by feeling and other conascent dhammas. There must also be an object that is appropriate for that kind of pariyutthåna defilement, and when that defilement attaches weight to that object, it is strong. When it has fallen away, it conditions the accumulation of that kind of defilement to go on as latent tendency. The Reason for this Conclusion: In the sixth Book of the “Abhidhamma”, the ‘Yamaka”, in the section on the definition, the objects and foundations of the latent tendencies are definied: “What does the latent tendency of sense desire adhere to? It adheres to two feelings of the sense sphere (kåma-dhåtu) [4]. What does the latent tendency of aversion adhere to? It adheres to unpleasant feeling. What does the latent tendency of conceit adhere to? It adheres to two feelings of the sense sphere, of the fine-material sphere (rúpa-dhåtu) and of the immaterial sphere (arúpa-dhatu) [5]. What does the latent tendency of wrong view adhere to? It adheres to all phenomena connected with personality (sakkåya) [6]. What does the latent tendency of doubt adhere to? It adheres to all phenomena connected with personality. What does the latent tendency of desire for existence adhere to? It adheres to the fine-material sphere and to the immaterial sphere. What does the latent tendency of ignorance adhere to? It adheres to all phenomena connected with personality.” -------- 3. The clinging to sense desires and the clinging to existence are lobha cetasika. 4. Pleasant feeling and indifferent feeling. Kåma-dhåtu, the element of the sense sphere, is the five khandhas that belong to the sense- sphere. 5. Pleasant feeling and indifferent feeling. These adhere to all planes of citta. Rúpa-dhåtu, the element of fine-material sphere, is the five khandhas belonging to the sphere of rúpa-jhåna. Arúpa-dhåtu, the element of the immaterial sphere, is the four khandhas (nåma- khandhas) belonging to the sphere of arúpa-jhåna. 6. These are the five khandhas. Sakkåya di.t.thi is personality belief, wrong view as to the five khandhas. This is the foundation for all other kinds of wrong view. ********* Nina. #102658 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta and uncontrollability upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Robert & Mike) - In a message dated 11/23/2009 7:09:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi RobertK, 2009/11/23 rjkjp1 > > > ++++ > dear Mike > yes and in the same way a human, dog, insect is programed to perform > certain actions and have certain beliefs. How ever, unlike your computer car > there was never any original programmer- no person, no God, no one at all, > who set up the program. In fact no beginning can be discerned.. > Also this program- comprising of paccaya- conditions, is much more more > complex because it is very gradually changing, aeon by aeon, millienia by > millenia, century by century, year by year, and in fact moment by moment. > I don't want to alarm you, but up to this point what you wrote is a very good synopsis of the theory of evolution of species by natural selection. Cheers Herman ================================= Except that Robert is, I presume, referring primarily (though not solely) to an ever-changing body of mental conditions as opposed to physical, not adopting an exclusively materialist perspective, and, moreover, he is discussing a *single* nama-rupic stream as it flows, adapting and innovating (or devolving), across aeons, as opposed to a "species" or a group of related "beings". As I see it, the only similarity is the general one of the common character of all change in all contexts: conditioned, multi-faceted, constant and ongoing but with occasional sudden jumps, sometimes constructive (or creative), and sometimes destructive and entropic. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102659 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:09 pm Subject: Re: More questions about nimitta jonoabb Hi Alberto --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: > > > Hi Jon, > > > Very sorry to hear this. Was looking forward to having you there. Any chance of a change of mind/circumstances? > > How about for the first week only, and the (other) list's boss - hi Sarah - dropping her taking notes assignment as well, deal? :-) > =============== It's a deal! You're welcome on any terms you like ;-)) Jon #102660 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness upasaka_howard Dear Bhante (and James) - In a message dated 11/24/2009 4:50:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ajahnjose@... writes: Dear James, Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu, as alway right to the point with perfection. As per Howard, he is a magnificent man with great knowledge, I will stand by him anytime. Metta. Ajahn Jose signature Venerable Yanatharo, Ajahn Jose =================================== Bhante, thank you for your generous (and somewhat embarrassing) words. I'm so happy to hear from you, Sir - happy that you are well enough to be in touch! May you live long, well, and with much peace and all the comfort possible. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102661 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (71) nilovg Dear pt, Op 23-nov-2009, om 12:09 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > When it comes to noticing the distinction between a sense-door > process and a mind-door process(es) during seeing, there seem to be > two scenarios: > > 1. when eyes move and then stop in their new position, it takes a > while for the first mind-door process to happen - as if there are > several sense-door processes happening in succession first, while > the eye is refocusing. -------- N: Only when the first vipassana ~naana is reached, it can be known what the mind-door process is. Before that there is only thinking about it, even when we do not think in words. Decads ago the late Ven. Dhammadharo said to me:< so long as you are thinking of seeing the characteristic of seeing will not be known, since you are thinking, not seeing.> That helped me a lot to stop speculating about seeing. So, it is not a matter of moving eyes in this or that position, it is best to attend to what appears now. -------- > > pt: > So I'm wondering in the first scenario, why does a sense-door > process seem to take longer? My guess is that there are several > sense-door processes happening in succession while the visual > object ("what is seen" as you say) is too weak to allow for a mind- > door process to happen. So, only once the eyes have physically > focused, the visual object is strong enough and then mind-door can > follow. ------- N: It is not a matter of visible object being stronger or weaker. Each sense-door process is followed by a mind-door process with bhavangacittas in between, but we cannot point to these. Focussing would not help to know the present reality, be it visible object, seeing, thinking or any other reality. They have to be known as just dhammas. Nina. #102662 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Dear pt, Op 23-nov-2009, om 11:20 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > N: Yes, it is brought about by kamma-condition. Seeing just sees and > > does not know whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant. We > > usually think about it afterwards. > > pt: That makes sense. However, in that case, sayings such as > "seeing gold is kusala vipaka, and seeing dung is akusala vipaka" > seem to be incorrect. Even more so the generalized sayings like - > hearing harsh words is akusala vipaka, getting ill is akusala > vipaka, etc. > > How do you reconcile the two? ----- N: The latter are examples in conventional sense. Hearing itself does not hear harsh words, but we give these as examples of unpleasant objects. Only afterwards when thinking about harsh words we know that hearing was akusala vipaakacitta. There could not be thinking of harsh words if there was not hearing of sound. Nina. #102663 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta and uncontrollability egberdina Hi Howard, 2009/11/25 > Hi, Herman (and Robert & Mike) - > > I don't want to alarm you, but up to this point what you wrote is a very > good synopsis of the theory of evolution of species by natural selection. > > Cheers > > Herman > ================================= > Except that Robert is, I presume, referring primarily (though not > solely) to an ever-changing body of mental conditions as opposed to > physical, > not adopting an exclusively materialist perspective, and, moreover, he is > discussing a *single* nama-rupic stream as it flows, adapting and > innovating > (or devolving), across aeons, as opposed to a "species" or a group of > related "beings". > Yes, that became obvious as the post went on. But seeing as you raised the point :-), doesn't this *single" nama-rupic stream not only adapt to the material world, but, more importantly, to other nama-rupic streams, and isn't it therefore the group that determines the way the individual evolves? Cheers (oh magnificent one :-)) Herman #102664 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness ajahnjose Dear James and Howard. I will be here for a long time, a young man died in a car accident and I got his lung, Kidneys and pancreas, two months ago, and I am doing great, soon back to the Monastery. Metta. Ajahn Jose signature Venerable Yanatharo, Ajahn Jose --- On Tue, 24/11/09, James wrote: From: James Thank you for the kind words. It is good to hear from you! I hope that you are doing well and that the cancer is in remission. Metta, James #102665 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta and uncontrollability upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 11/24/2009 5:22:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Yes, that became obvious as the post went on. But seeing as you raised the point :-), doesn't this *single" nama-rupic stream not only adapt to the material world, but, more importantly, to other nama-rupic streams, and isn't it therefore the group that determines the way the individual evolves? ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, 100% correct. There is ongoing interaction among nama-rupic streams, a fact that is sometimes ignored (or at least given short shrift) by some when engaged in Abhidhammic theorizing. ------------------------------------------------------- Cheers (oh magnificent one :-)) ------------------------------------------------------ LOLOL!!! ---------------------------------------------------- Herman ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102666 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness upasaka_howard Hi, Bhante (and James) - In a message dated 11/24/2009 5:38:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ajahnjose@... writes: Dear James and Howard. I will be here for a long time, a young man died in a car accident and I got his lung, Kidneys and pancreas, two months ago, and I am doing great, soon back to the Monastery. Metta. Ajahn Jose signature Venerable Yanatharo, Ajahn Jose ================================ I'm very sorry for that young man and his family, but how blessed of them to have thought of others! And, of course, I'm thrilled for you, Sir!! I think of Spock: "Live well and prosper!" :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102667 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:17 pm Subject: Contact & Feeling truth_aerator Hello Herman, Howard What is ATO? As to contact, there is another awesome sutta ""Just as from the coming together and rubbing of two sticks of wood heat results and fire is produced, and by the separation and disconnection of the sticks, the heat produced by them ceases and disappears, so it is also with these three feelings which are born of sense-impression, rooted in sense-impression, caused by sense-impression, dependent on sense-impression: dependent on a sense-impression of a certain kind there arises a corresponding feeling; by the cessation of that sense-impression the corresponding feeling ceases."" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.010.nypo.html Note: Sensation (vedana) happens while there is contact (sense-impression, phassa). When internal/external are separated, sensation is no more. Just like making fire with two sticks. Fire happens only through continuous rubbing, it cannot happen outside of that. As to contact, it requires vinnana (see MN148 sutta for example). So already we have internal sense faculty, external object, consciousness, contact, feeling. With MN43 we would also add perception to the mix. Since phasso, as interaction, requires volition, it belongs to sankhara khanda. So all 4 aggregates happen at the same time, while carrying out their mutually dependent but slightly different functions. In SN 22.81 contact can be *with* ignorance, avijjasamphasso. So contact does have a cognitive content (in this case it is ignorance). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.081.than.html Again, since Avijja belongs to sankhara kkhandha and comes with CONTACT, thus contact also belongs to sankhara Khandha. IMHO of course. With metta, Alex #102668 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact & Feeling egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/25 truth_aerator > Hello Herman, Howard > > What is ATO? > Access to Insight website :-) > > As to contact, there is another awesome sutta > > ""Just as from the coming together and rubbing of two sticks of wood heat > results and fire is produced, and by the separation and disconnection of the > sticks, the heat produced by them ceases and disappears, so it is also with > these three feelings which are born of sense-impression, rooted in > sense-impression, caused by sense-impression, dependent on sense-impression: > dependent on a sense-impression of a certain kind there arises a > corresponding feeling; by the cessation of that sense-impression the > corresponding feeling ceases."" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.010.nypo.html > > > Note: Sensation (vedana) happens while there is contact (sense-impression, > phassa). When internal/external are separated, sensation is no more. Just > like making fire with two sticks. Fire happens only through continuous > rubbing, it cannot happen outside of that. > > This tends to confirm phassa as an event, to me. > > As to contact, it requires vinnana (see MN148 sutta for example). > > So already we have internal sense faculty, external object, consciousness, > contact, feeling. > > With MN43 we would also add perception to the mix. Since phasso, as > interaction, requires volition, it belongs to sankhara khanda. So all 4 > aggregates happen at the same time, while carrying out their mutually > dependent but slightly different functions. > > Why do you say that contact requires volition? > > In SN 22.81 contact can be *with* ignorance, avijjasamphasso. So contact > does have a cognitive content (in this case it is ignorance). > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.081.than.html > > Again, since Avijja belongs to sankhara kkhandha and comes with CONTACT, > thus contact also belongs to sankhara Khandha. IMHO of course. > > Cheers Herman #102669 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact & Feeling truth_aerator Hi Herman, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > > > > > Why do you say that contact requires volition? > Contact is sense-interaction. There has to be certain volition to engage with this, that data - or not to engage at all. Every moment we have a lot of things going on. There has to be intentional viewing of something. If you are not paying intentional attention to some sense, than you may not have sense-contact with it. Sometimes children may put so much volition and intention to play video games and they play with such attentiveness to the screen - that they are oblivious to outer environment and sounds. With metta, Alex #102670 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact & Feeling egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/25 truth_aerator > Hi Herman, all, > > Contact is sense-interaction. There has to be certain volition to engage > with this, that data - or not to engage at all. So you exclude contact from playing a role in seeing, hearing, feeling etc? It only plays a role in acts of intentional and selective attention to the seen, heard etc? > Every moment we have a lot of things going on. There has to be intentional > viewing of something. If you are not paying intentional attention to some > sense, than you may not have sense-contact with it. Sometimes children may > put so much volition and intention to play video games and they play with > such attentiveness to the screen - that they are oblivious to outer > environment and sounds. > > Cheers Herman #102671 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact & Feeling truth_aerator Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2009/11/25 truth_aerator > > > Hi Herman, all, > > > > Contact is sense-interaction. There has to be certain volition to engage > > with this, that data - or not to engage at all. > > > So you exclude contact from playing a role in seeing, hearing, feeling etc? > It only plays a role in acts of intentional and selective attention to the > seen, heard etc? Seeing, etc, is always intentional (for non-Arahants) or result of past intentions. Phasso plays a role in any cognitive events of non-Arahant. With metta, Alex #102672 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact & Feeling egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/25 truth_aerator > Hi Herman, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > 2009/11/25 truth_aerator > > > > > Hi Herman, all, > > > > > > Contact is sense-interaction. There has to be certain volition to > engage > > > with this, that data - or not to engage at all. > > > > > > So you exclude contact from playing a role in seeing, hearing, feeling > etc? > > It only plays a role in acts of intentional and selective attention to > the > > seen, heard etc? > > Seeing, etc, is always intentional (for non-Arahants) or result of past > intentions. > > There's a big difference between the two, don't you think? Vipaka and kamma are world's apart. Seeing is not intentional, looking is. Hearing is not intentional, listening is etc Cheers Herman #102673 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact & Feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 11/24/2009 7:33:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Alex, 2009/11/25 truth_aerator > Hello Herman, Howard > > What is ATO? =================================== Guys, ATO is what you get when you hit the "O" key instead of the "I" key right next to it! The abbreviation for Access to Insight is"ATI". :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102674 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact & Feeling truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2009/11/25 truth_aerator > > > Hi Herman, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > #102672 Hi Herman, You are making a good point between seeing and looking. Seeing is result from past kamma. Looking is what is happening now, the only moment there is. If looking is done with wise attention and correct intention, then future results will be better. Developing wise attention, practice of dhamma in accordance with the dhamma - are very important steps to remove future and present stress. With metta, Alex #102675 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:39 pm Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness upasaka_howard Hi again, Bhante - In a message dated 11/24/2009 5:59:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Upasaka writes: I think of Spock: "Live well and prosper!" ================================= That should be "Live long and prosper!" :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102676 From: "billybobby717" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:59 pm Subject: Mantra billybobby717 Are mantras important? Where in the Tipataka does the Buddha mention a mantra?I've heard that he tells the former killer(mr.thousand fingered one)that "they have their stones but you have your mantra" but i can't find this anywhere. Also...What is the "great standard" and where can I read about it in the Tipataka? Thanks Guys! Billy #102677 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:49 pm Subject: Re: Mantra szmicio Hi Billy, > Are mantras important? Where in the Tipataka does the Buddha mention a mantra?I've heard that he tells the former killer(mr.thousand fingered one)that "they have their stones but you have your mantra" but i can't find this anywhere. L: He's name was Angulimala, he was a killer. Maybe mantra can mean a remedy? As far as I know no mantras in tipitaka. > Also...What is the "great standard" and where can I read about it in the Tipataka? L: You can read about Angulimala here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.086.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel312.html Past bad deeds conditioned good deeds later on,in the case of Angulimala. Best wishes Lukas #102678 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:45 pm Subject: Comments on Angulimala Sutta szmicio Dear friends, Let'me give my comments on what I considered very important reminder. I read in Angulimala Sutta: L: He was a bad guy. He just thought how to kill. And not only brutallity matters in the case of Angulimala, but also his madness and ilussion. He wanted to kill Buddha. L: The Blessed One had to use his power, because If he did not do this, he would be killed. Buddha knew excellant the person personalities and he knew Angulimala was not able to understand Dhamma in his present state. Also If he did not use his power no matter what would he said, he would be killed. No matter how wise words it would be. <"I have stopped, Angulimala. You stop."> L: Those was the first Dhamma words. And Angulimala understood them. But he needed to be told more on this. L: The kusala consideration arose in him. He felt saddha to the Buddha words. And with yoniso manasiara started to ask his questions. This is so similar to our present conditions. If we hear something that doesnt fit our believes we simply get anger and dont want hear it again. L: He wasnt able to grasp the meaning of the Dhamma in short. He needed to consider it more. This explanation in short and than in detailed way is very common to buddha's teachings. The guy with panna can knew this. How Dhamma in short conditions panna and how Dhamma in detailed way conditions panna. He see how concepts that are heard and are a matter of Saddhamma can influance personalities. No need to think like me doing this or that, and so on. <[The Buddha:] "I have stopped, Angulimala, once & for all, having cast off violence toward all living beings. You, though, are unrestrained toward beings. That's how I've stopped and you haven't."> L: He explained. <[Angulimala:] "At long last a greatly revered great seer for my sake has come to the great forest. Having heard your verse in line with the Dhamma, I will go about having abandoned evil." So saying, the bandit hurled his sword & weapons over a cliff into a chasm, a pit. Then the bandit paid homage to the feet of the One Well-gone, and right there requested the Going-forth. The Awakened One, the compassionate great seer, the teacher of the world, along with its devas, said to him then: "Come, bhikkhu." That in itself was bhikkhuhood for him.> L: Hearing Dhamma is a suprime condition to right understandng. Angulimala was a murderer, but he has accumulations to right understanding. He became an Arahat. Best wishes Lukas #102679 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:49 pm Subject: It Is Parittam, Not Mantra --- Re: Mantra abhidhammika Dear Billy, Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Ken O, Alex, Freawaru, Howard, Robert K, Phil, Jon, Sarah How are you? Billy asked: "Are mantras important? Where in the Tipataka does the Buddha mention a mantra?I've heard that he tells the former killer(mr.thousand fingered one)that "they have their stones but you have your mantra" but i can't find this anywhere." Suan Lu Zaw answered: We do not call it mantra. We call it parittam. Thus, what you are looking for is called Angulimaalaparittam. How this paraittam appeared can be found in Section 351, Angulimaalo Suttam, Raaja Vaggo, Majjhimapa.n.naasapaali, Majjhimanikaayo. Angulimaala Suttam is the 6th Suttam in (4)Raajavaggo, and begins at Section 347. The following Pali text excerpt is what you are looking for, but you should read the Suttam from the beginning for the background information. ANGULIMAALA SUTTAM Section 351……. ………….. ……………. Atha kho aayasmaa angulimaalo pubba.nhasamayam nivaasetvaa pattaciivaramaadaaya saavatthiyam pi.n.daaya paavisi. Addasaa kho aayasmaa angulimaalo saavatthiyam sapadaanam pi.n.daaya caramaano aññataram itthim muu.lhagabbham vighaatagabbham. Disvaanassa etadahosi– "kilissanti vata, bho, sattaa; kilissanti vata, bho, sattaa"ti! Atha kho aayasmaa angulimaalo saavatthiyam pi.n.daaya caritvaa pacchaabhattam pi.n.dapaatapaµikkanto yena bhagavaa tenupasankami; upasankamitvaa bhagavantam abhivaadetvaa ekamantam nisiidi. Ekamantam nisinno kho aayasmaa angulimaalo bhagavantam etadavoca– "idhaaham, bhante, pubba.nhasamayam nivaasetvaa pattaciivaramaadaaya saavatthim pi.n.daaya paavisim. Addasam kho aham, bhante, saavatthiyam sapadaanam pi.n.daaya caramaano aññataram itthim muu.lhagabbham vighaatagabbam". Disvaana mayham etadahosi– "kilissanti vata, bho, sattaa; kilissanti vata, bho, sattaa"ti! "Tena hi tvam, angulimaala, yena saa itthii tenupasankama; upasankamitvaa tam itthim evam vadehi– `yatoham, bhagini, jaato ‚ naabhijaanaami sañcicca paa.nam jiivitaa voropetaa, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassaa'"ti. "So hi nuuna me, bhante, sampajaanamusaavaado bhavissati. Mayaa hi, bhante, bahuu sañcicca paa.naa jiivitaa voropitaa"ti. "Tena hi tvam, angulimaala, yena saa itthii tenupasankama; upasankamitvaa tam itthim evam vadehi– `yatoham, bhagini, ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato, naabhijaanaami sañcicca paa.nam jiivitaa voropetaa, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassaa'"ti. "Evam, bhante"ti kho aayasmaa angulimaalo bhagavato paµissutvaa yena saa itthii tenupasankami; upasankamitvaa tam itthim etadavoca– "yatoham, bhagini, ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato, naabhijaanaami sañcicca paa.nam jiivitaa voropetaa, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassaa"ti. Atha khvaassaa itthiyaa sotthi ahosi, sotthi gabbhassa. Atha kho aayasmaa angulimaalo eko vuupakaµµho appamatto aataapii pahitatto viharanto nacirasseva– yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariyam pabbajanti tadanuttaram– brahmacariyapariyosaanam diµµheva dhamme sayam abhiññaa sacchikatvaa upasampajja vihaasi. `Khii.naa jaati vusitam brahmacariyam, katam kara.niiyam, naaparam itthattaayaa'ti abbhaññaasi. Aññataro kho panaayasmaa angulimaalo arahatam ahosi. The actual Parittaam Pali statement: "`yatoham, bhagini, ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato, naabhijaanaami sañcicca paa.nam jiivitaa voropetaa, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassaa'"ti. By the way, you all may be familiar with the term and symbol 'Swastika'. It comes from the Sanskrit term 'svasti'. The Pali form is 'sotthi', and you can find 'sotthi' twice in this parittam. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #102680 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Inducing samatha egberdina Hi Jon, 2009/11/23 jonoabb > Hi Herman > > (102596) > > I've always wondered about the following, and I thought this would be a > good > > opportunity to ask. > > > > What is there to differentiate between what is understood as kusala by > > ignorance, and what is understood as kusala by panna? Or in other words, > how > > is panna known? > > =============== > > A very good question. > > If I may, I'd suggest that "ignorance" in your statement be replaced by > "wrong view", since it wrong view that takes things (dhammas) to be other > than they are (whereas ignorance is simply ignorant of things). > That's fine. As long as we understand what we both mean :-) > > So the question is, how is sati/panna to be known from wrong view? > > There is no hard and fast rule, but there are some pointers. In fact the > texts are full of descriptions of what panna knows. > > For example, the object of sati/panna is one or other of the dhammas spoken > of at length by the Buddha. So if what is being "known" is not a dhamma (or > a characteristic of a dhamma), then it can't be panna. > > Also, sati/panna begins at the beginning level and progresses gradually to > deeper levels. Thus, in the beginning stage it known nama as nama and rupa > as rupa. > > Again, dhammas are experienced as mere impersonal elements. > > And so on. > > So the short answer is that only by having the teachings as a point of > reference can panna can be known from wrong view (hence the importance of a > correct intellectual understanding of the teachings). > > Hoping this addresses the point you were raising. > Thank you for answering, and yes, your answer does address the point I was raising. What I have inferred from your answer, and please correct me if I have done so incorrectly, is that panna can only be known after the fact, by a process of reasoning. Cheers Herman #102681 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] It Is Parittam, Not Mantra --- Re: Mantra egberdina Hi Suan, 2009/11/25 abhidhammika > > > Dear Billy, Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Ken O, Alex, Freawaru, Howard, Robert K, > Phil, Jon, Sarah > > How are you? > > Billy asked: > > "Are mantras important? Where in the Tipataka does the Buddha mention a > mantra?I've heard that he tells the former killer(mr.thousand fingered > one)that "they have their stones but you have your mantra" but i can't find > this anywhere." > > Suan Lu Zaw answered: > > in a most helpful way, if and only if Billy could intuit which published version of the Canon was being used, and if and only if Billy was fully conversant in Pali. Your reply doesn't please me, Suan, because I am not as clever as you think Billy ought to be. Cheers Herman #102682 From: "sprlrt" Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhs. The arising of consciousness - the 8 great resultants, mahavipaka sprlrt Hi Sarah, > S: Too lazy to pull out the text now, but are not patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti cittas included here which can have concepts as object, as I recall? Well spotted, thanks, I wanted to leave out that paragraph for further work on it but forgot to do that... Alberto #102683 From: han tun Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:36 am Subject: [dsg] It Is Parittam, Not Mantra --- Re: Mantra hantun1 Dear Suan, If you give only the Pali text of Angulimala Sutta, the readers may wish to know the English translation. So I have put the English translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu along with your Pali Text. I cannot type it out from the book by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi as it is too lengthy. So I took it from the translation by Thanisaro Bhikkhu, which is available on line. -------------------- Atha kho aayasmaa angulimaalo pubba.nhasamayam nivaasetvaa pattaciivaramaadaay a saavatthiyam pi.n.daaya paavisi. Addasaa kho aayasmaa angulimaalo saavatthiyam sapadaanam pi.n.daaya caramaano aññataram itthim muu.lhagabbham vighaatagabbham. Disvaanassa etadahosi "kilissanti vata, bho, sattaa; kilissanti vata, bho, sattaa"ti! Atha kho aayasmaa angulimaalo saavatthiyam pi.n.daaya caritvaa pacchaabhattam pi.n.dapaatapaµ ikkanto yena bhagavaa tenupasankami; upasankamitvaa bhagavantam abhivaadetvaa ekamantam nisiidi. Ekamantam nisinno kho aayasmaa angulimaalo bhagavantam etadavoca "idhaaham, bhante, pubba.nhasamayam nivaasetvaa pattaciivaramaadaay a saavatthim pi.n.daaya paavisim. Addasam kho aham, bhante, saavatthiyam sapadaanam pi.n.daaya caramaano aññataram itthim muu.lhagabbham vighaatagabbam". Disvaana mayham etadahosi "kilissanti vata, bho, sattaa; kilissanti vata, bho, sattaa"ti! Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. As he was going from house to house for alms, he saw a woman suffering a breech birth. On seeing her, the thought occurred to him: "How tormented are living beings! How tormented are living beings!" Then, having wandered for alms in Savatthi and returning from his alms round after his meal, he went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to him, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Just now, lord, early in the morning, having put on my robes and carrying my outer robe & bowl, I went into Savatthi for alms. As I was going from house to house for alms, I saw a woman suffering a breech birth. On seeing her, the thought occurred to me: 'How tormented are living beings! How tormented are living beings!'" -------------------- "Tena hi tvam, angulimaala, yena saa itthii tenupasankama; upasankamitvaa tam itthim evam vadehi `yatoham, bhagini, jaato ‚ naabhijaanaami sañcicca paa.nam jiivitaa voropetaa, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassaa'" ti. "In that case, Angulimala, go to that woman and on arrival say to her, 'Sister, since I was born I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'" -------------------- "So hi nuuna me, bhante, sampajaanamusaavaad o bhavissati. Mayaa hi, bhante, bahuu sañcicca paa.naa jiivitaa voropitaa"ti. "But, lord, wouldn't that be a lie for me? For I have intentionally killed many living beings." -------------------- "Tena hi tvam, angulimaala, yena saa itthii tenupasankama; upasankamitvaa tam itthim evam vadehi `yatoham, bhagini, ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato, naabhijaanaami sañcicca paa.nam jiivitaa voropetaa, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassaa'" ti. "Then in that case, Angulimala, go to that woman and on arrival say to her, 'Sister, since I was born in the noble birth, I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'" -------------------- "Evam, bhante"ti kho aayasmaa angulimaalo bhagavato paµissutvaa yena saa itthii tenupasankami; upasankamitvaa tam itthim etadavoca– "yatoham, bhagini, ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato, naabhijaanaami sañcicca paa.nam jiivitaa voropetaa, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassaa"ti. Atha khvaassaa itthiyaa sotthi ahosi, sotthi gabbhassa. Responding, "As you say, lord," to the Blessed One, Angulimala went to that woman and on arrival said to her, "Sister, since I was born in the noble birth, I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus." And there was wellbeing for the woman, wellbeing for her fetus. -------------------- Atha kho aayasmaa angulimaalo eko vuupakaµµho appamatto aataapii pahitatto viharanto nacirasseva yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariyam pabbajanti tadanuttaram brahmacariyapariyos aanam diµµheva dhamme sayam abhiññaa sacchikatvaa upasampajja vihaasi. `Khii.naa jaati vusitam brahmacariyam, katam kara.niiyam, naaparam itthattaayaa' ti abbhaññaasi. Aññataro kho panaayasmaa angulimaalo arahatam ahosi. Then Ven. Angulimala, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus Ven. Angulimala became another one of the arahants. -------------------- The full text of the sutta: MN 86 Angulimala Sutta: About Angulimala translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.086.than.html Han: I also give below, the Angulimala Paritta. -------------------- Protective Discourse to Angulimala (Angulimala Paritta) The Venerable Angulimala while on his rounds for alms in Savatthi saw a woman in travail. After his meal he approached the Buddha and told him what he had seen. Thereupon the master taught him this paritta. He then went to the presence of the suffering sister, sat on a seat separated from her by a screen, and made this asseveration of the Truth. Instantly she gave birth to the child with great ease. The efficacy of the Angulimala paritta persists to this day. This sutta is not included in the "Book of Protection." The words, uttered by the Buddha by way of protection, and learned by the Venerable Angulimala, are found in the Angulimala sutta (Majjhima nikaya, sutta no. 86). The very water that washed the seat of him who recited this paritta has put an end to all danger. At that very moment this paritta effected a safe delivery of the infant. Now we shall recite that very efficacious paritta uttered by the Protector of the world (Buddha) which holds good for an aeon. "Since I was born of Aryan birth, O sister, I am not aware of having intentionally deprived any living being of his life. By this asseveration of Truth may you be well! May thy unborn child be well!" -------------------- Han: The above is taken from the following link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/piyadassi/protection.html#app1 Han: But I do not know whether it is what Billy wanted. with metta and respect, Han #102684 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:02 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha’s teaching on kamma and result is difficult to grasp. It is not a dogma one has to accept. There can be theoretical understanding of kamma and result, but by theoretical understanding this law cannot be fully comprehended. Only by direct understanding of the physical phenomena and mental phenomena of our life the condition of kamma which produces result can be seen more clearly. Therefore it should not be expected that the law of kamma and result can be fully understood when we begin to investigate the Buddha’s teaching on this subject. A deed done in the past can produce result later on. Kamma can be compared to a seed developing into a tree which bears fruit later on. Evenso, a bad deed, for example killing, can produce an unpleasant result such as illness or pain. A good deed, for example a deed of generosity, can produce a pleasant result, such as the receiving of beautiful things. When we think of a deed and its result we usually think of a deed which has an effect on someone else. In order to understand the law of kamma and its result we should not think in terms of the conventional realities of persons and situations, but we should have understanding of the ultimate realities of cittas and their accompanying mental factors and of physical phenomena, realities which arise and then fall away immediately. We cannot be sure whether someone else performs kusala kamma or not from the outward appearance of things. We may see someone else giving things away but there may not be the performing of a deed of generosity. The giving may be motivated by selfish motives, and then giving is not kusala kamma. It is the wholesome or unwholesome intention or volition which constitutes kusala kamma or akusala kamma. The terms kusala kamma and akusala kamma can be used in the sense of good deeds and evil deeds, but when we are more precise kamma is the intention or volition motivating deeds performed through bodily action, through speech and through the mind. When we speak of the different types of kusala kamma and akusala kamma we should remember that kamma is intention or volition, a mental reality. Kamma is a mental factor accompanying citta, and it arises and falls away together with the citta. ****** Nina. #102685 From: Herman Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact & Feeling egberdina Hi Howard, 2009/11/25 > > > > What is ATO? > =================================== > Guys, ATO is what you get when you hit the "O" key instead of the "I" > key right next to it! The abbreviation for Access to Insight is"ATI". :-) > > The Australian Taxation Office strikes again :-) Thanks for pointing this out. Cheers Herman #102686 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? sarahprocter... Dear Connie, Alex, Herman & all, Back on home and society-dwelling - --- On Mon, 16/11/09, connie wrote: >"This is a bondage, a baited hook. There's little happiness here, next to no satisfaction, all the more suffering & pain." Knowing this, circumspect, wander alone like a rhinoceros. " - Snp 1.3 ... >c: I've a copy of TB's Snp 1.3 " Revised: Mon 2004.11.08 " that seems to be the same as what is on ATI now. Sorry. ... S: I'm not sure whether the parts I have in mind have been removed or whether I'm going blind. From earlier messages: #31798 C:> It might be from Ven. Maha Kaccana's Mahaniddesa.... see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html section IV. Atthaka Vagga: <1. Although these poems were originally composed for an audience of wandering, homeless monks, they offer valuable lessons for lay people as well. Even the passages referring directly to the homeless life can be read as symbolic of a state of mind. Ven. Maha Kaccana's commentary, mentioned above, shows that this has been done ever since canonical times. Addressing a lay person, and commenting on a verse describing the behavior of a sage who has abandoned home and society, he interprets "home" as the khandhas and "society" as sense impressions. Thus in his hands the verse develops an internal meaning that lay people can apply to their lives without necessarily leaving their external home and society. Other verses in the poems can be interpreted in similar ways. > S: And in case anyone suggests this is not a sutta, so not relevant, we have more on "society and home" from Maha Kaccana: >SN 22.3 Haliddakani Sutta: To Haliddakani http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.003.than.html "I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Maha Kaccana was staying in Avanti at Osprey's Haunt, on Sheer-face Peak. Then Haliddakani the householder went to him and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Maha Kaccana: "Venerable sir, this was said by the Blessed One in Magandiya's Questions in the Atthaka Vagga: 'Having abandoned home, living free from society, the sage in villages creates no intimacies. Rid of sensual passions, free from yearning, he wouldn't engage with people in quarrelsome debate.' "How is the detailed meaning of this, the Blessed One's brief statement, to be understood?" [Ven. Maha Kaccana:] "The property of form, householder, is the home of consciousness. When consciousness is in bondage through passion to the property of form, it is said to be living at home. The property of feeling... perception... fabrication is the home of consciousness. When consciousness is in bondage through passion to the property of fabrication, it is said to be dwelling at home. "And how does one not live at home? Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions with regard to the property of form: these the Tathagata has abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is said to be not dwelling at home. "Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases or obsessions with regard to the property of feeling... perception... fabrication... "Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases or obsessions with regard to the property of consciousness: these the Tathagata has abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is said to be not dwelling at home. "And how does one live with society? One who is in bondage to the distraction of the society of form-impressions is said to be living in society. One who is in bondage to the distraction of the society of sound-impressions... aroma-impressions... flavor-impressions... tactile-sensation-impressions... idea-impressions is said to be living in society. This is how one lives with society. "And how does one live free from society? The Tathagata has abandoned bondage to the distraction of the society of form-impressions, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is said to be living free from society. "The Tathagata has abandoned bondage to the distraction of the society of sound-impressions... aroma-impressions... flavor-impressions... tactile-sensation-impressions... idea-impressions, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is said to be living free from society.< **** S: And in case anyone suggests that MahaKaccana is not to be trusted and has corrupted the words of the Buddha, let me repeat what I wrote & quoted in an earlier message #88621: >S:....the Buddha expressly approves of Maha Kaccana's elaborations as when he says in the Madhupindika Sutta: "Bhikkhus, Mahaakaccaana is wise, even if you had asked me, I would have explained it as Mahaakaccaaana had done it. That is its meaning, so bear it like that." http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/018-madhup\ indika-sutta-e1.html Maha Kaccana was well known for being able to give detailed explanations on short expositions given by the Buddha. ...In AN (i,23), he is said indeed to be 'foremost of those who analyse in detail what has been stated in brief' In "Great Disciples of the Buddha" by Nyanaponika Thera and Hellmuth Hecker, there is a chapter on Maha Kaccana. Here's a quote from it, elaborating on this point: "While such brief teachings would escape the understanding of the great majority of the monks, the mature disciples with sharp faculties of wisdom could readily fathom their meaning. Under such circumstances the ordinary monks, reluctant to trouble their Master with requests for explanation, would turn for clarification to the senior disciples whose comprehension of the Dhamma had already been confirmed by the Blessed One. So important did this function become in the early Buddhist Sangha that the Buddha himself established, in the ranks of his most eminent disciples, a separate category called "the foremost of those who analyze in detail the meaning of what was stated (by me) in brief" (aggam sankhittena bhasitassa vittharena attham vibhajantanam). "The bhikkhu who was assigned to this position by the Master was the Venerable Maha Kaccana -- Kaccana the Great, so called to distinguish him from others who bore the common brahmanical clan name of Kaccayana (shortened to Kaccana)." One more quote that is given in the book makes the point: "Monks, those monks who, like my son Maha Kaccana, guard the doors of the senses, are beloved both among gods and humans." He then pronounced the following stanza of the Dhammapada (v.94): "Even the gods hold him dear, Whose senses are subdued Like horses trained well by a charioteer, Whose pride is destroyed, And who is free from corruptions." < **** Metta Sarah ======== #102687 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal instructions in VsM sarahprocter... Hi Alex & all, --- On Mon, 23/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: >Thank you for your reply. On the insight stages, I am making notes for myself ~ have made a 78 page guide for myself. ... S: We could discuss one stage at a time, starting with nama rupa pariccheda nana or the visuddhis. You might like to quote a para from your guide at a time for any discussion. That way we may get through it by this time next year:-)) ... >But in any case, even if we focus on suttamaya panna - the more we study with quantity & quality the better. ... S: I think the important point to stress is that this is the *understanding* based on what's been heard (or read). In other words, it's not just repetitive listening/reading of the Teachings, however great the quality. 'Study' as taught by the Buddha, refers to wise attention and right understanding of namas and rupas. ... >"What is 'development as repetition'? Here a practitioner practices repetition in the morning, repetition at noon, repetition in the evening, repetition before eating, repetition after eating, repetition in the first watch, repetition in the middle watch, repetition in the last watch, repetition by night, repetition by day, repetition by night and day, repetition in the dark half of the moon, repetition in the bright half of the moon, repetition in the rainy season, repetition in the cool season, repetition in the hot season, repetition in the first phase of life, repetition in the middle phase of life, repetition in the last phase of life. This is development as repetition. " Ptsm ... S: Repetition of wise attention and panna - no matter what the time or season, whether eating, whether too hot, too cold, whether young or old. If it's not the right 'study' of realities, it will never lead to even the first stage of insight. The one who studies (sikkhati) rightly is the learner (sekha), i.e. the ariyan. From the commentary to the Muulapariyaaya Sutta, B.Bodhi: "In what sense is the learner called by this name? He is a learner because he has obtained the qualities that make him a learner. For this is said: 'To what extent, Lord, is one a learner?' 'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu is endowed with a learner's right view....a learner's right concentration. To this extent a bhikkhu is a learner' (S 45:13/v.14). Moreover, 'he learns (sikkhati), therefore he is a learner.' For this is said: 'He learns, bhikkhu, thus he is called a learner. And what does he learn? He learns the higher virtue, the higher consciousness, and the higher wisdom. He learns, bhikkhu, thus he is called a learner' (A 3:84/i, 231)." Metta Sarah p.s Appreciating all your posts in the vedana/phassa thread:) ======== #102688 From: "James" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness buddhatrue Hi Ven. Yanatharo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ajahn Jose wrote: > > Dear James and Howard. I will be here for a long time, a young man died in a car accident and I got his lung, Kidneys and pancreas, two months ago, and I am doing great, soon back to the Monastery. Metta. Ajahn Jose > > signature > Venerable Yanatharo, Ajahn Jose I am very glad to hear that you are doing well and that you got the needed organ transplants! I hope that you will continue to recover. As for the young man who died, I'm sure that he will have a blessed future existence as he gave his very organs to save the life of a bhikkhu. Take care and do keep in touch. Metta, James #102689 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:36 am Subject: The Offending Clause In The Translation Re-- It Is Parittam, Not Mantra abhidhammika Dear Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Billy, Ken O, Alex, Freawaru, Howard, Robert K, Phil, Jon, Sarah How are you? Uncle U Han Tun wrote: "If you give only the Pali text of Angulimala Sutta, the readers may wish to know the English translation. So I have put the English translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu along with your Pali Text. I cannot type it out from the book by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi as it is too lengthy. So I took it from the translation by Thanisaro Bhikkhu, which is available on line." Thank you, Uncle, for reproducing an English translation of Anguimaala Suttam done by Thannisaro Bhikkhu. However, Uncle, the following translation was wrong, I am afraid. ------------------------------------------------------------- "Tena hi tvam, angulimaala, yena saa itthii tenupasankama; upasankamitvaa tam itthim evam vadehi `yatoham, bhagini, ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato, naabhijaanaami sañcicca paa.nam jiivitaa voropetaa, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassaa'" ti. "Then in that case, Angulimala, go to that woman and on arrival say to her,'Sister, since I was born in the noble birth, I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'" ---------------------------------------------------- The offending clause in the above paragraph is - since I was born in the noble birth, -. So, Uncle, please kindly type out the translation of the above paragraph, as another Dhamma Daana, from the book of Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi. If their translation was also still wrong, I will have no choice, but to offer the correct translation of it myself. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #102690 From: Herman Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact & Feeling egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/25 truth_aerator > > > You are making a good point between seeing and looking. Seeing is result > from past kamma. Looking is what is happening now, the only moment there is. > If looking is done with wise attention and correct intention, then future > results will be better. > > > Developing wise attention, practice of dhamma in accordance with the dhamma > - are very important steps to remove future and present stress. > > So, in your opinion, is there phassa in seeing, or only in looking? Cheers Herman #102691 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:13 am Subject: The Four Great Principles for Identifying True Theravada Teachings -- Re: Mantra abhidhammika Dear Billy, Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Ken O, Alex, Freawaru, Howard, Robert K, Phil, Jon, Sarah How are you? Billy asked: "Also...What is the "great standard" and where can I read about it in the Tipataka?" Suan answered: Billy, I think that you were trying to articulate the Four Great Principles for Identifying Genuine Words of the Buddha (Cattaaro Mahaapadesaa). You can find this great Suttam at Section 180, Mahaapadesa Suttam, Sancetaniyavaggo, Catukanipaatapaali, Anguttaranikaayo. Good luck with finding a good translation of this great Suttam! With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #102692 From: han tun Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:16 am Subject: Re: The Offending Clause In The Translation Re-- It Is Parittam, Not Mantra hantun1 Dear Suan, The translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi is as follows: [Then, Angulimala, go into Saavatthi and say to that woman: "Sister, since I was born with the noble birth, I do not recall that I have ever intentionally deprived a living being of life. By this truth, may you be well and may your infant be well!"] I think you will still find it unsatisfactory. The translation of "ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato" as "born with the noble birth" may still be wrong. You may kindly give the correct translation. Thank you very much. with metta and respect, Han #102693 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mantra upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas (and Billy) - In a message dated 11/25/2009 12:50:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, szmicio@... writes: Hi Billy, > Are mantras important? Where in the Tipataka does the Buddha mention a mantra?I've heard that he tells the former killer(mr.thousand fingered one)that "they have their stones but you have your mantra" but i can't find this anywhere. L: He's name was Angulimala, he was a killer. Maybe mantra can mean a remedy? As far as I know no mantras in tipitaka. > Also...What is the "great standard" and where can I read about it in the Tipataka? L: You can read about Angulimala here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.086.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel312.html Past bad deeds conditioned good deeds later on,in the case of Angulimala. Best wishes Lukas ================================== The Pali word is 'manta', and it refers to an utterance (thought of or actually spoken) that supposedly has a salutory effect on the mind. (The word itself, I suppose, is linguistically related to 'mano'.) I also am not aware of it occurring in the Tipitaka. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102694 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact & Feeling truth_aerator Hi Herman, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2009/11/25 truth_aerator > > > > > > > You are making a good point between seeing and looking. Seeing is result > > from past kamma. Looking is what is happening now, the only moment there is. > > If looking is done with wise attention and correct intention, then future > > results will be better. > > > > > > Developing wise attention, practice of dhamma in accordance with the dhamma > > - are very important steps to remove future and present stress. > > > > > So, in your opinion, is there phassa in seeing, or only in looking? > > Cheers > > > Herman Phassa is present in every state of consciousness, including seeing/looking. For worldlings the phassa is avijjasamphasso most of the time (if not all the time). Only Arahants do not have phassa tainted with ignorance or underlying tendencies. With metta, Alex #102695 From: "connie" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? nichiconn Dear Sarah, ;) no more worries about going blind just yet - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/atthakavagga.html connie ==== S: I'm not sure whether the parts I have in mind have been removed or whether I'm going blind. From earlier messages: #31798 C:> It might be from Ven. Maha Kaccana's Mahaniddesa.... see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html section IV. Atthaka Vagga: < (snip ...)Addressing a lay person, and commenting on a verse describing the behavior of a sage who has abandoned home and society, he interprets "home" as the khandhas and "society" as sense impressions. > #102696 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:41 am Subject: On Virtue (Ptsm) truth_aerator Hello all, Some cut outs of Patisambhidamagga: What is virtue? There is virtue as volition, virtue as consciousness concomitant, virtue as restraint, virtue as non-transgression. There are three kinds of virtue (habit); profitable virtue(habit), unprofitable virtue(habit), indeterminate virtue(habit). From what does virtue originate? Profitable virtue(habit) originates from profitable cognizance, unprofitable virtue(habit) originates from unprofitable cognizance, indeterminate virtue(habit) originates from indeterminate cognizance. With how many phenomena (dhamma) does virtue combine? Virtue combines with restraint, virtue combines with non-transgression, virtue combines with the volition produced about such a phenomenon as restraint or non-transgression. In the case of killing living beings virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. In the case of taking what is not given, virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. In the case of sexual misconduct, virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. In the case of false speech, virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. In the case of malicious speech, virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. In the case of harsh speech, virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. In the case of gossip, virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. In the event of covetousness, virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. In the case of ill-will, virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. In the case of wrong view virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through renunciation in the case of zeal(chandha) for sensual-desires, virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through non ill-will in the case of ill-will, virtue is in the sense of its restraint, and in the sense of its non-transgression. Through perception of light in the case of stiffness and torpor virtue is in the sense of its restraint, and in the sense of its non-transgression. Through non-distraction in the case of agitation virtue is in the sense of its restraint, and in the sense of its non-transgression. Through investigation-of-ideas in the case of uncertainty virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through knowledge in the case of ignorance virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through gladness in the case of boredom virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through the first Jhāna in the case of the hindrances virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non-transgression. Through the second Jhāna in the case of applied thought and sustained thought virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through the third Jhāna in the case of happiness virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through the fourth Jhāna in the case of pleasure and pain virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non-transgression. Through the attainment of the base consisting of boundless space in the case of perception of materiality, perceptions of resistance and perceptions of variety virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non-transgression. Through the attainment of the base consisting of boundless consciousness in the case of perception of the base consisting of boundless space virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through the attainment of the base consisting of nothingness in the case of perception of the base consisting of boundless consciousness virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through the attainment of the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception in the case of perception of the base consisting of nothingness virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of impermanence in the case of perception of permanence virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of pain in the case of perception of pleasure virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of not self in the case of perception of self virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of dispassion in the case of delighting virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of fading away of greed in the case of greed virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of cessation in the case of arising virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of renunciation in the case of grasping virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of destruction in the case of perception of compactness virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of fall in the case of accumulation virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of change in the case of perception of lastingness virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of signless in the case of the sign [of formations] virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of the desireless in the case of desire virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of voidness in the case of misinterpretation virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through insight into ideas which is the higher understanding in the case of misinterpretation due to greed, virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through correct knowledge and seeing in the case of misinterpretation due to confusion virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of danger in the case of misinterpretation due to reliance on formations, virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of reflection in the case of non-reflection, virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of turning away in the case of misinterpretation due to bondage virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through the stream-entry path in the case of the defilements coefficient with wrong view, virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non-transgression. Through the once-return path in the case of gross defilements, virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non-transgression. Through the non-return path in the case of secondary defilements, virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non-transgression. Through the Arahant path in the case of all defilements virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Five kinds of virtue: virtue consisting in limited purification, virtue consisting in unlimited purification, virtue consisting in perfected purification, virtue consisting in non misapprehended(parāmāsa = misapprehended, perverted) purification, virtue consisting in tranquillized purification. What is 'virtue consisting in limited purification'? That of the training precepts for those not fully admitted to the Order of monks: such is virtue consisting in limited purification. What is 'virtue consisting in unlimited purification'? That of the training precepts for those fully admitted to the Order of monks: such is virtue consisting in unlimited purification. What is 'virtue consisting in perfected purification'? That of good worldlings devoted to profitable qualities, who are perfecting the course that ends in traineeship, regardless of the physical body and life, having given up attachment to life: such is virtue consisting in perfected purification. What is 'virtue consisting in non misapprehended purification'? That of the seven kinds of trainer: such is virtue consisting in non misapprehended purification. What is 'virtue consisting in tranquillized purification'? [Tranquillized(passaddha) means particularly cessation of effort to obtain when the aim has been obtained.] That of the Perfect One's disciples with cankers exhausted, of Undeclared Enlightened Ones (Pacceka Buddhas), of Perfect One accomplished and fully awakened: such is virtue consisting in tranquillized purification. There is virtue that has a limit and virtue that has no limit. Herein what is the virtue that has a limit? There is virtue that has gain as its limit, there is virtue that has fame as its limit, there is virtue that has relatives as its limit, there is virtue that has limbs as its limit, there is virtue that has life as its limit. What is virtue that has gain as its limit? Here someone with gain as cause, with gain as condition, with gain as reason, transgresses a training precept as undertaken: such virtue has gain as its limit. What is virtue that has fame as its limit? Here someone with fame as cause, with fame as condition, with fame as reason, transgresses a training precept as undertaken: such virtue has fame as its limit. What is virtue that has relatives as its limit? Here someone with relatives as cause, with relatives as condition, with relatives as reason, transgresses a training precept as undertaken: such virtue has relatives as its limit. What is virtue that has limbs as its limit? Here someone with limbs as cause, with limbs as condition, with limbs as reason, transgresses a training precept as undertaken: such virtue has limbs as its limit. What is virtue that has life as its limit? Here someone with life as cause, with life as condition, with life as reason, transgresses a training precept as undertaken: such virtue has gain as its limit. Such kinds of virtue are torn, rent, blotched, mottled, they are not liberating, not commended by the wise; they are misapprehended(parāmāsa), not conducive to concentration, not a basis for non-remorse, not a basis for gladness(pāmojja), not a basis for happiness(piiti), not a basis for tranquility(passaddhi), not a basis for bliss(sukha), not a basis for concentration(samadhi), not a basis for correct knowledge and seeing; they do not lead to complete dispassion(nibbidā), to fading of greed(virāga), to cessation(nirodha), to peace (upasama), to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to nibbana: such virtue has a limit. But when the person intent on keeping the virtues even if it means losing one's life, does not break them, then the person is fully keeping the virtues capable of reaching Nibbana. (my comment) Even if someone's life is on the line, do not break even the tiniest precept. Even if bandits are cutting you to pieces with two handed saws, those who harbor any hatred toward the attackers is not doing the Buddha's teaching, see sutta on simile of the Saw - MN21. Infact you should send loving kindness to your killers. If you can't change the circumstance, change the way you relate to it. Do not add mental hatred to already painful bodily feelings. They will reap their fruits later on. Don't make your mind hateful for it just makes things worse and shows delusion on your part. What someone else is doing, even to you, is their problem. Do not make it your own, existence has enough problems already. No need to add additional suffering to oneself, or others. As the Buddha has also said "hatred is not stopped by hatred, it is stopped only by non-hatred" – Dhp 3-4 By refusing to hate you are employing a degree of wisdom, and by restraining oneself from unwholesome actions requers a degree of wisdom. Keeping virtue is also a function of wisdom. Keep virtue not because you are being told to, but keep virtue through understanding its manifold benefits. If you seek peace, then do not do un-peaceful actions such as bank robbery, rape, torture or mutilation. As you increase your sensitivity and awareness, you will see the discomfort of even small transgressions. Remember that there is such thing as cause and effect. If you sow and cultivate bitter seeds, you will get bitter plants. If you sow and cultivate sweet sort of seeds, you will get sweet sort of plants. ==== Five Kinds of Virtue: In the case of killing living things abandoning is virtue, abstention is virtue, volition is virtue, restraint is virtue, non-transgression is virtue. Such virtues lead to non-remorse cognizance, to gladness, to happiness, to tranquility, to joy, to repetition, to development, to making much of, to embellishment, to the requisite for concentration, to the equipment of concentration, to perfection, to complete dispassion, to fading away of greed, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to nibbana: the purification consisting in restraint in such virtues is the higher virtue. Mind established in the purification consisting in restraint does not become distracted; the purification consisting in non-distraction is the higher mentality. He sees the purification consisting in restraint correctly, and he sees the purification in non-distraction correctly; the purification consisting in seeing is the higher wisdom. The meaning of restraint therein is training in the higher virtue, the meaning of non-distraction therein is training in higher mentality, the meaning of seeing therein is training in the higher wisdom. With metta, Alex #102698 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:58 am Subject: On Realization (Abhisamayo) (in Ptsm) truth_aerator Hello Sarah, Nina, all There is realization (abhisamayo). It is caused by the presently arisen mind with knowledge at the supramundane path. (lokuttaramaggakkhane paccuppannacittena ca nanena ca abhisameti – PTS Ptsm 2.215) "Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-conditioned."- Dhp 1 And when the Buddha was considering with attention to the root the conditionality and conditionally arisen phenomena there arose breakthrough (yoniso manasikara ahu pannaya abhisamayo) – PTS SN 2.5 by the means of wisdom (pannaya). When one gives wise attention (yoniso manasikaroto) as impermanent, the formations (sankhara) appear as decay (khayato) and his mind has great resolution (adhimokkha). One acquires the faith faculty (saddhindriya). The faith faculty is dominant in him. In development four faculties follow upon it, are conascent conditions, are mutuality conditions, are support conditions, are association conditions, and have a single function (taste). Only those who have entered the right way develop these faculties, not those on wrong paths. When he achieves stream entry path he is called faith follower (saddhanusari). When he reaches stream entry fruition and higher, he is called Liberated by Faith (saddhavimutto). If faith follower gives wise attention to other 2 marks, (unsatisfactoriness, and not self) faith faculty is still outstanding in him. When one who has great resolution gives attention as impermanent, he aquires signless liberation (animitto vimokkho). When one gives wise attention as unsatisfactory, the formation appear as fearful (bhayato) and his mind has great tranquillity (passaddhi). One acquires the concentration faculty (samadhindriya). The concentration faculty is dominant in him. In development four faculties follow upon it, are conascent conditions, are mutuality conditions, are support conditions, are association conditions, and have a single function (taste). Only those who have entered the right way develop these faculties, not those on wrong paths. He is called body witness (kayasakkhi). If body witness gives wise attention to other 2 marks, (impermanence and not self) concentration faculty is still outstanding in him. When one who has great tranquillity gives attention as unsatisfactory, desireless liberation (appanihito vimokkho) is outstanding in him. When one gives wise attention as not-self, the formation appear as void and empty (sunnato), and his mind has great knowledge (veda). One acquires wisdom faculty (pannindriya). The understanding faculty is dominant in him. In development four faculties follow upon it, are conascent conditions, are mutuality conditions, are support conditions, are association conditions, and have a single function (taste). Only those who have entered the right way develop these faculties, not those on wrong paths. He is one attained to Vision. At the moment of stream entry he is called (dhammanusari) up to fruition of Arhatship he is called Attained to vision (ditthippatto). When one who has great wisdom gives attention as not self, the void liberation (sunnato vimokkho) is outstanding in him. Ptsm At the moment of the supramundane path mind whose predominant feature is the nature of its arising is the cause and condition for knowledge, and also the mind associated with that knowledge has cessation as its domain; and knowledge whose predominant feature is seeing, is the cause and condition for the mind, and also the knowledge associated with that mind has cessation as its domain. That is how one causes realization by means of presently arisen mind at the moment of the supramundane path and by means of knowledge. At the moment of supramundane path there is: Right view in the sense of seeing, Right intention in the sense of directing onto, Right speaking in the sense of embracing, Right acting in the sense of origination, Right livelihood in the sense of cleansing, Right effort in the sense of exerting, Right mindfulness in the sense of establishing, Right concentration in the sense of non-distracting. There is realization of establishment of (mindfulness, investigation-of-states, energy, happiness tranquility, concentration, equanimity) enlightenment factors. There is realization of unshakability by non-faith which is faith power, the unshakability by idleness which is energy power, the unshakability by negligence which is mindfulness power, the unshakability by agitation which is concentration power, unshakability by ignorance which is the understanding power. There is realization of resolution, which is faith faculty, there is realization of the energy faculty in the sense of exertion, there is realization of the mindfulness faculty in the sense of establishing, there is realization of the concentration faculty in the sense of non-distraction, there is realization of seeing which is understanding faculty. There is realization of the faculties in the sense of dominance; there is realization of the powers in the sense of unshakability; there is realization of enlightment factors in the sense of outlet; there is realization of the path in the sense of cause; there is realization of the foundations of mindfulness in the sense of establishment (foundation); there is realization of the right efforts in the sense of effort, there is realization in the sense of bases of success in the sense of succeeding; there is realization of the actualities in the sense of suchness (reality). There is realization of serenity in the sense of non-distraction; there is realization of insight in the sense of contemplation; there is realization of serenity and insight in the sense of single function (taste); there is realization of coupling in the sense of non-excess. Purification of virtue in the sense of restraint is realization; purification of mind in the sense of non-distraction is realization; purification of wisdom in the sense of seeing is realization; liberation in the sense of freedom is realization; recognition in the sense of penetration is realization; deliverance in the sense of giving up is realization; knowledge of exhaustion in the sense of cutting off is realization. In the sense of root foundation, zeal is realization; in the sense of origination, attention is realization; in the sense of combining, contact is realization; in the sense of being foremost, concentration is realization; in the sense of dominance, mindfulness is realization; in the sense of being highest of all, understanding is realization; in the sense of core, deliverance is realization; in the sense of end, nibbana which merges in the deathless is realization. One does not abandon past defilements, one does not abandon future defilements, one does not abandon present defilements. If one does not abandon past defilements, one does not abandon future defilements, one does not abandon present defilements, then there is no development of the path, there is no realization of its fruition, there is no realization of phenomena? That is not so. There is development of the path, there is realization of its fruition, there is realization of phenomena. In what way? Suppose there was a young tree with unborn fruit, and a man cut the root, then the unborn fruit of the tree remains unborn and do not come to be born, they remain ungenerated and do not come to be generated, they remain unarisen and do not come to be arisen, they remain unmanifest and do not come to be manifested. So too, arising is the cause, arising is the condition, for the generation of defilements. Seeing danger in arising, mind enters & launches out into non-arising. With mind entering & launching into non-arising the defilements that would be generated with arising as their condition remain unborn and do not come to be born. The potential defilements remain ungenerated and do not come to be generated, they remain unarisen and do not come to be arisen, they remain unmanifest and do not come to be manifested. So with the cessation of the cause there is cessation of suffering. Occurrence, sign, accumulation is a cause, is a condition, for the generation of defilements. Seeing danger in accumulation, mind enters & launches into non-accumulation. With mind entering & launching into non-accumulation the defilements that would be generated with accumulation as their condition remain unborn and do not come to be born. The potential defilements remain ungenerated and do not come to be generated, they remain unarisen and do not come to be arisen, they remain unmanifest and do not come to be manifested. So with the cessation of the cause there is cessation of suffering. Thus there is development of the path, there is realization of its fruition, there is realization of factors. Any comments, points to discuss? With metta, Alex #102700 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:17 pm Subject: Ptsm: On Faculties compilation truth_aerator Hello Sarah, Nina all, I made some cut outs of Ptsm on Faculties. "There are these five faculties. What five? The faith faculty, the energy faculty, the mindfulness faculty, the concentration faculty, the wisdom faculty.' (S v 193) In how many aspects are these five faculties purified? The five faculties are purified in fifteen aspects. When he avoids faithless persons, cultivates, frequents and honours faithful persons, and reviews Suttas that inspire confidence, the faith faculty is purified in him in these three aspects. When he avoids idle persons, cultivates, frequents and honours energetic persons, and reviews right efforts, the energy faculty is purified in him in these three aspects. When he avoids forgetful persons, cultivates, frequents and honours mindful persons, and reviews the foundations of mindfulness, the mindfulness faculty is purified in him in these three aspects. When he avoids unconcentrated persons, cultivates, frequents and honours concentrated persons, and reviews the jhanas and liberations, the concentration faculty is purified in him in these three aspects. When he avoids persons with no understanding, cultivates, frequents and honours persons possessed of understanding, and reviews the behaviour of profound knowledge, the wisdom faculty is purified in him in these three aspects. So when he avoids these five kinds of persons, cultivates, frequents and honours these five kinds of persons, and reviews these five sorts of Suttas, these five faculties are purified in him in these fifteen aspects. At the moment of the stream-entry path, once-returning path, non-returning path, arhat-path the five faculties are being developed; When he is abandoning non-faith he is developing the faith faculty; when he is developing the faith faculty he is abandoning non-faith. When he is abandoning idleness he is developing the energy faculty; when he is developing the energy faculty he is abandoning idleness. When he is abandoning negligence he is developing the mindfulness faculty; when he is developing the mindfulness faculty he is abandoning negligence. When he is abandoning agitation he is developing the concentration faculty; when he is developing the concentration faculty he is abandoning agitation. When he is abandoning ignorance he is developing the wisdom faculty; when he is developing the wisdom faculty he is abandoning ignorance. In how many aspects have the five faculties been developed, quite developed? At the moment of the stream-entry fruition, once-returning fruition, non-returning fruition, Arahatship fruition the five faculties have been developed, quite developed, and also tranquillized, quite tranquillized. Because non-faith has been abandoned, quite abandoned, the faith faculty has been developed, quite developed; because the faith faculty has been developed, quite developed, non-faith has been abandoned, quite abandoned. Because idleness, Because negligence, ,Because agitation , Because ignorance has been abandoned, quite abandoned, the wisdom faculty has been developed, quite developed; because the wisdom faculty has been developed, quite developed, ignorance has been abandoned, quite abandoned. The five faculties have been developed, quite developed in these ten aspects. In what three kinds of persons have the faculties been fully developed? A Perfect One's Disciple (Hearer) with cankers exhausted, who has been enlightened by hearing, has the faculties fully developed in him. One who has reached enlightenment without declaring it, in the sense of being self-become (not taught by another), has the faculties fully developed in him. A Perfect One, the Buddha, accomplished and fully Awakened, in the sense that he is immeasurable, has the faculties developed in him. In these three kinds of persons the faculties have been developed. There is development of faculties in the seven kinds of Trainee and in the good worldlings. In what forty aspects is there origin of the five faculties? In what forty aspects does he understand the origin of the five faculties? Each of the 5 spiritual faculties of (faith faculty, the energy faculty, the mindfulness faculty, the concentration faculty, the wisdom faculty) have as their origin in resolution(adhimokkha), zeal(chanda), attention(manasikara), and unity(ekatta) of mind. This (5 faculites x 4 aspects) makes 20 origin of the five faculties. The arising of adverting with the purpose of resolution or exertion or establishing or non-distraction or seeing, becomes the origin of each respective spiritual faculty (=5 aspects). The arising of zeal through the influence of these five qualities (resolution, exertion, establishing, non-distraction, seeing) becomes the origin of each respective faculty (= 5 aspects); the arising of attention through the influence of these five qualities (resolution, exertion, establishing, non-distraction, seeing) becomes the origin of each respective faculty (= 5 aspects); establishment in mental unity & harmony through the influence of each of these five faculties also becomes the origin of that respective faculty (= 5 aspects). In what twenty five aspects is there gratification in the case of the five spiritual faculties? In what twenty-five aspects does he understand the gratification in the case of the five faculties? Non-appearance of non-faith is gratification in the case of the faith faculty. Non-appearance of the anguish of non-faith is gratification in the case of the faith faculty. Assurance in the behaviour of resolution is gratification in the case of the faith faculty. The achievement of a peaceful abiding is gratification in the case of the faith faculty. That pleasure and joy arise dependent upon the faith faculty is gratification in the case of the faith faculty. Non-appearance of idleness, non-appearance of the anguish, non-appearance of the anguish of idleness, assurance in the behaviour of exertion , the achievement of a peaceful abiding, that pleasure and joy arise dependent upon the energy faculty is gratification in the case of the energy faculty. Non-appearance of negligence, non-appearance of the anguish of negligence, assurance in the behaviour of establishment, the achievement of a peaceful abiding is, that pleasure and joy arise dependent upon the mindfulness faculty, is gratification in the case of the mindfulness faculty. Non-appearance of agitation, non-appearance of the anguish of agitation, assurance in the behaviour of non-distraction, the achievement of a peaceful abiding , that pleasure and joy arise dependent upon the concentration faculty is gratification in the case of the concentration faculty. Non-appearance of ignorance, non-appearance of the anguish of ignorance, assurance in the behaviour of seeing, the achievement of a peaceful abiding, that pleasure and joy arise dependent upon the wisdom faculty is gratification in the case of the wisdom faculty. There is gratification in the case of the five spiritual faculties in these twenty five aspects. In what twenty-five aspects is there danger in the case of five faculties? The appearance of non-faith, the appearance of anguish of non-faith, impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, not self, are the dangers in the case of the faith faculty. The appearance of idleness, the appearance of anguish of idleness, impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, not self, are the dangers in the case of the energy faculty. The appearance of negligence, the appearance of anguish of negligence, impermanence ... Unsatisfactoriness, not self, are the dangers in the case of mindfulness faculty. The appearance of agitation, the appearance of anguish of agitation, impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, not self, are the dangers in the case of concentration faculty. The appearance of ignorance, the appearance of anguish of ignorance, impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, not self, are the dangers in the case of wisdom faculty. There is danger in the case of five faculties in these twenty-five aspects. In what eighty aspects is there escape in the case of the five faculties? Through resolution the faith faculty has escaped from non-faith, escaped from anquish of non-faith, escaped from defilement and from aggregates that occur consequent thereon and escaped externally from all signs, escaped from the earlier form of faith faculty by gaining the sublime form of the faith faculty. Through exertion the energy faculty has escaped from idleness, escaped from anquish of idleness, escaped from defilement and from aggregates that occur consequent thereon and escaped externally from all signs, escaped from the earlier form of energy faculty by gaining the sublime form of the energy faculty. Through establishing the mindfulness faculty has escaped from negligence, escaped from anquish of negligence, escaped from defilement and from aggregates that occur consequent thereon and escaped externally from all signs, escaped from the earlier form of mindfulness faculty by gaining the sublime form of the mindfulness faculty. Through non-distraction the concentration faculty has escaped from agitation, escaped from anquish of agitation, escaped from defilement and from aggregates that occur consequent thereon and escaped externally from all signs, escaped from the earlier form of concentration faculty by gaining the sublime form of the concentration faculty. Through seeing the wisdom faculty has escaped from ignorance, escaped from anquish of ignorance, escaped from defilement and from aggregates that occur consequent thereon and escaped externally from all signs, escaped from the earlier form of wisdom faculty by gaining the sublime form of the wisdom faculty. The five faculties due to the first jhana have escaped from the five faculties of the mundane, prior state. The five faculties due to the second jhana have escaped from the five faculties of the first jhana. The five faculties due to the third jhana have escaped from the five faculties of the second jhana, The five faculties due to the fourth jhana have escaped from the five faculties of the third jhana. The five faculties due to the attainment of the base consisting of boundless space have escaped from the five faculties of the forth jhana. The five faculties due to the attainment of the base consisting of boundless consciousness have escaped from the five faculties of the base consisting of boundless space. The five faculties due to the attainment of the base consisting of nothingness have escaped from the five faculties of the base of boundless consciousness. The five faculties due to the attainment of the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception have escaped from the five faculties of the attainment of the base consisting of nothingness. The five faculties due to the contemplation of impermanence have escaped from the five faculties in the attainment of the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception. The five faculties due to the contemplation of unsatisfactoriness have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of impermanence. The five faculties due to the contemplation of not self, have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of unsatisfactoriness. The five faculties due to the contemplation of dispassion have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of not self. The five faculties due to the contemplation of fading away have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of dispassion. The five faculties due to the contemplation of cessation have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of fading away. The five faculties due to the contemplation of relinquishment have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of cessation. The five faculties due to the contemplation of destruction have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of relinquishment. The five faculties due to the contemplation of fall have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of destruction. The five faculties due to the contemplation of change have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of fall. The five faculties due to the contemplation of the signless have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of change. The five faculties due to the contemplation of the desireless have escaped from the five faculties in contemplation of the signless. The five faculties due to the contemplation of voidness have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of the desireless The five faculties due to insight into ideas which is the higher understanding have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of desireless. The five faculties due to correct knowledge have escaped from the five faculties in the insight into ideas which is the higher understanding. The five faculties due to the contemplation of danger have escaped from the five faculties in the correct knowledge. The five faculties due to the contemplation of reflexion have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of danger. The five faculties due to the contemplation of turning away have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of reflexion. The five faculties due to the stream-entry path have escaped from the five faculties in the contemplation of turning away. The five faculties due to the stream-entry fruition have escaped from the five faculties in the stream-entry path. The five faculties due to the once-return path have escaped from the five faculties in the the stream-entry fruition. The five faculties due to the once-return fruition have escaped from the five faculties in the the once-return path. The five faculties due to the non-return path have escaped from the five faculties in the Once-return fruition. The five faculties due to the non-return fruition have escaped from the five faculties in the path of non-returning. The five faculties due to the arahant path have escaped from the five faculties in the fruition of once returning. The five faculties due to the arahant fruition have escaped from the five faculties in the arahant path. In nibbana without remainder, there is ultimate escape from all things. The five faculties in renunciation(nekkhamma) have escaped from zeal for sensual-desires. The five faculties in non-ill-will(avyaapaada) have escaped from ill-will. The five faculties in perception of light have escaped from stiffness-and-torpor. The five faculties in non-distraction have escaped from agitation. The five faculties in definition-of-ideas have escaped from uncertainty. The five faculties in knowledge have escaped from ignorance. The five faculties in gladness have escaped from boredom. The five faculties in the first jhana have escaped from hindrances. The five faculties in the second jhana have escaped from applied-thought and sustained-thought. The five faculties in third jhana have escaped from happiness. The five faculties in the fourth jhana have escaped from pleasure and pain. The five faculties in the attainment of the base consisting of boundless space have escaped from perception of material form, from perception of sense-impact, and from perception of difference. The five faculties in the attainment of the base consisting of boundless consciousness have escaped from perception of the base consisting of boundless space. The five faculties in the attainment of the base consisting of nothingness have escaped from perception of the base consisting of boundless consciousness.The five faculties in the attainment of the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception have escaped from perception of the base consisting of nothingness. The five faculties in the contemplation of impermanence have escaped from perception of permanence. The five faculties in the contemplation of pain have escaped from perception of pleasure. The five faculties in the contemplation of not self have escaped from perception of self. The five faculties in the contemplation of dispassion have escaped from delighting. The five faculties in the contemplation of fading away have escaped from greed. The five faculties in the contemplation of cessation have escaped from arising. The five faculties in the contemplation of relinquishment have escaped from grasping. The five faculties in the contemplation of destruction have escaped from perception of compactness. The five faculties in the contemplation of fall have escaped from accumulation. The five faculties in the contemplation of change have escaped from perception of everlastingness. The five faculties in the contemplation of signless have escaped from sign. The five faculties in the contemplation of desireless have escaped from desire. The five faculties in the contemplation of voidness have escaped from misinterpretation. The five faculties in insight into ideas which is a higher understanding have escaped from misinterpretation by grasping at the core. The five faculties in correct-knowledge and seeing have escaped from misinterpretation due to confusion. The five faculties in the contemplation of danger have escaped from misinterpretation due to reliance. The five faculties in the contemplation of reflexion have escaped from non-reflexion. The five faculties in the contemplation of turning have escaped from bondage. The five faculties inthe stream-entry path have escaped from the defilements coefficient with wrong view. The five faculties in the once-return path have escaped from gross defilements. The five faculties in the non-return path have escaped from residual defilements. And in the case of all those whose cankers are exhausted the five faculties in any instance have escaped, quite escaped, and are tranquillized, quite tranquillized. "Where is the faith faculty to be found? Among the four factors of stream entry, the faith faculty is to be found here. And where is the energy faculty to be found? Among the four right efforts, the energy faculty is to be found there. And where is the mindfulness faculty to be found? Among the four foundations of mindfulness, the mindfulness faculty is to be found there. And where is the concentration faculty to be found? Among the four jhanas, the concentration faculty is to be found there. And where is the wisdom faculty to be found? Among the four noble truth, the wisdom faculty is to be found there.' (S v 196) In what twenty aspects are the five faculties to be found through the faith faculty among the four factors of stream entry? In the factor of stream entry consisting in frequenting good men: The faith faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of resolution; and through the faith faculty the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion, the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of establishment, the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of non-distraction, and the wisdom faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing. In the factor of stream entry consisting in hearing the The Teaching: The faith faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of resolution; and through the faith faculty the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion, the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of establishment, the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of non-distraction, and the wisdom faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing. In the factor of stream entry consisting in careful attention: The faith faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of resolution; and through the faith faculty the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion, the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of establishment, the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of non-distraction, and the wisdom faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing. In the factor of stream entry consisting in practice in accordance with the nature of things (the True Teaching): the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of resolution; and through the faith faculty the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion, the mindfulness faculty is to be found int he sense of establishment, the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of non-distraction, and the wisdom faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing. The five faculties are to be found through the faith faculty among the four factors of stream entry in twenty aspects. In what twenty aspects are the five faculties to be found through the energy faculty among the four right efforts? In the right effort for the non-arising of unarisen evil unwholesome qualities: the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of exertion; and through the energy faculty the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of establishing, the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of non-distraction, the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing, and the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of of resolution. In the right effort for the abandoning of arisen unwholesome qualities: The energy faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of exertion; and through the energy faculty the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of establishing, the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of non-distraction, the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing, and the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of of resolution. In the right effort for the arousing of unarisen wholesome qualities: The energy faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of exertion; and through the energy faculty the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of establishing, the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of non-distraction, the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing, and the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of of resolution. In the right effort for the maintenance , non-disappearance, strengthening, increase, developemnt and perfection of arisen wholesome qualities : the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of exertion; and through the energy faculty the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of establishing, the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of non-distraction, the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing, and the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of of resolution. The five faculties are to be found through the energy faculty among the four right efforts in twenty aspects. In what twenty aspects are five faculties to be found through the mindfulness faculty among the four foundations of mindfulness? In the foundation of mindfulness consisting in contemplation of the body as a body (kaye-kayanupassi viharati): the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of establishment; and through the mindfulness faculty the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of non-distraction, the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing, the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of resolution, and the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion. In the foundation of mindfulness consisting in contemplation of feelings as feelings (vedanasu vedanaupassi viharati): the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of establishment; and through the mindfulness faculty the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of non-distraction, the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing, the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of resolution, and the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion. In the foundation of mindfulness consisting in contemplation of mind as mind(citte cittanupassi viharati): The mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of establishment; and through the mindfulness faculty the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of non-distraction, the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing, the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of resolution, and the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion. In the foundation of mindfulness consisting in contemplation of ideas as ideas (dhammesu dhammanupassi viharati); the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of establishment; and through the mindfulness faculty the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of non-distraction, the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing, the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of resolution, and the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion. The five faculties are to be found through the mindfulness faculty among the four foundations of mindfulness in these twenty aspects. In what twenty aspects are five faculties to be found through the concentration faculty among the four jhanas? In the first jhana: the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of non-distraction; and through the concentration faculty the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing, the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of resolution, the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion, and the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of establishment. In the second jhana: the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of non-distraction; and through the concentration faculty the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing, the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of resolution, the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion, and the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of establishment. In the third jhana: the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of non-distraction; and through the concentration faculty the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing, the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of resolution, the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion, and the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of establishment. In the fourth jhana : the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of non-distraction; and through the concentration faculty the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of seeing, the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of resolution, the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion, and the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of establishment. The five faculties are to be found through through the concentration faculty among the four jhanas in these twenty aspects. In what five aspects are the five faculties to be found through the understanding faculty among the four noble actualities? In the noble actuality of suffering: the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of seeing; and through the understanding faculty the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of resolution, the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion, the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of establishment, and the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of non-distraction. In the noble actuality of the origin of suffering: the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of seeing; and through the understanding faculty the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of resolution, the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion, the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of establishment, and the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of non-distraction. In the noble actuality of the cessation of suffering: the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of seeing; and through the understanding faculty the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of resolution, the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion, the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of establishment, and the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of non-distraction. In the noble actuality of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: the understanding faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of seeing; and through the understanding faculty the faith faculty is to be found in the sense of resolution, the energy faculty is to be found in the sense of exertion, the mindfulness faculty is to be found in the sense of establishment, and the concentration faculty is to be found in the sense of dominance of non-distraction. The five aspects are the five faculties to be found through the understanding faculty among the four noble actualities in these five aspects. ========== What makes these five faculties stable? "Just as, in a house with a ridged roof, the rafters are not stable or firm as long as the ridge beam is not in place, but are stable and firm when it is; in the same way, four spiritual faculties are not stable or firm as long as noble knowledge has not arisen in a noble disciple, but are stable and firm when it has. Which four? The faculty of faith, the faculty of effort, the faculty of mindfulness, and the faculty of concentration". "When a noble disciple is wisely discerning, the faith that follows from that stands solid. The effort that follows from that stands solid. The mindfulness that follows from that stands solid and stable. The concentration that follows from that stands solid and stable."- SN 48.52 With metta, Alex #102701 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 11/25/2009 2:42:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: (my comment) Even if someone's life is on the line, do not break even the tiniest precept. ========================== I would lie to save someone from being murdered. I would kill a bear to save a human from being mauled by it or kill a snake to save a human being from being bitten by it. If any of these would send me to hell, so be it! With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102702 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) truth_aerator Hi Howard, all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > ========================== >I would lie to save someone from being murdered. I would kill a >bear to save a human from being mauled by it or kill a snake to >save a human being from being bitten by it. If any of these would >send me to hell, so be it! > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, all, I understand. It would be my initial intention as well. However as for high Buddhist standards, you shouldn't have even tiniest bit of anger. Things are the way they are and are not the way they are not. The Buddha even said that one shouldn't resists when bandits savagely cut one to pieces or if someone strikes a Bhikkhuni. See MN21. "Again Pagguna, if anyone beat those bhikkhunis with their hands or with clods, or sticks, or weapons, you should train as above. ... If anyone beats you with hands, or clods, or sticks, or weapons, you should give up that worldly interest and worldly thoughts. Phagguna, there you should train like this: `My mind will not change, I will not utter evil words, I will abide with compassion and loving kindness, without an angry thought'. O! Bhikkhus, even if robbers cut your limbs one after another with a two handled saw, if your mind be defiled on account of that, you have not done the duty in my dispensation Then too you should train thus. Our minds will not change, we will not utter evil words. We will abide compassionate with thoughts of loving kindness not angry. We will pervade that person with thoughts of loving kindness. With that same sign, grown great and developed extensively, I pervade and abide. Bhikkhus, you should train thus." http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/021-kakacupama\ -sutta-e1.html I suspect that the fact that one was hurt is at least partially due to ones bad kamma. So as harsh as it sounds, they deserve it. And I deserve all the problems I have, as well. What can be done is to restrain bad kamma and make good kamma, and to liberate oneself. My poor health is possibly a kammic result from past, and "I" deserve it. The fact that someone is hurt, is their kamma ripening. No need to add bad kamma to oneself. There is enough of that already. Furthermore when someone is beat, ultimately speaking it is just 4 elements that are getting de-formed. ========= The material body is made up of insentient earth, water, heat, air and has space (as a derivative primary element) inside and outside of them. The 4 elements and material world are different characteristics of hardness, roughness, heaviness, softness, smoothness, lightness, flowing, trickling, oozing, cohesion, digestion, metabolism, heat, ripening, coldness, moving, supporting, pushing, blowing, cooling. When the Earth is damaged, altered or someone throws what is clean or unclean on the earth - feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood, the insentient earth is oblivious and is not hurt, scared or affected in any way. Earth doesn't know that "I am being destroyed, altered or changed. I am big or small. I posses this or that". When people boil the water or wash what is clean or unclean in water such as feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood; the insentient water is oblivious to this and is not hurt, scared or affected in any way. Just like sea bed doesn't know that "water is on, around and near me" so the insentient flesh & bones do not know that liquid such as urine, blood, sweat and so on is near it. The Earth does not know that "water is around, near, or in me causing me to be wet" and neither does the water know "Earth is around, under or near me" or "I am in the Earth". The Earth and water are insentient material elements and without cognition of any kind. When water is evaporated by heat, the water doesn't know "I am being evaporated by heat" and the heat does not know that `I have boiled water'. When water extinguishes the fire the water doesn't know that `I have extinguished the fire" and the fire doesn't know that `I was extinguished by the water". Water and Fire are insentient material elements without cognition of any kind. When the body is warmed, the flesh itself doesn't know that "I am being warmed by heat" just like warmed earth doesn't know that "I am being warmed by heat". When fire burns what is clean or unclean- feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood, the insentient fire is oblivious to this fact and is not hurt, angered, scared. When wind blows what is clean or unclean; feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood; wind is not hurt, angered or scared. When Fire was blown out by the wind the fire doesn't know "I was blown out and extinguished by wind" and neither does the wind know that "I blown out and extinguished the fire". The Fire and Wind are insentient material elements that do not feel or cognize anything. The pressure in the body is like wind blowing dust on earth and causing trees to bend. The dust doesn't know "I am being blown by wind", the trees do not know that "we are being bent by the wind" and the wind doesn't know "I am blowing dust and bending trees". Same in this body, made of 4 elements, insentient elements do not cognize if the pressure inside is strong, weak or absent. Space is not hurt, angered or scared whenever anything happens in it. It doesn't know that "in me there are these disgusting or beautiful things". The space itself like the earth, water, fire and air is insentient element devoid of cognition, feeling and mental states of any kind. When somebody walks, sits, stands, or lies, it is only matter made of 4 elements that is changing location and shape. When one sits to meditate, it is only matter that is changing location and position. When eating, digested external elements become part of the body and what cannot be digested is excreted out. The insentient elements themselves are inconstant, unsatisfactory, not-self and don't feel anything. Only, by the diffusion of the process of motion (element of wind) born of mental activity does the act of dressing take place. The cloth & material body are insentient material elements. The cloth is not aware of the fact that it is draping the body, and the body too of itself does not think: "I am being draped round with these clothes." Mere conditioned processes clothe material body, in the same way that a insentient sculpture is covered with a piece of cloth. Therefore, there is neither room for greed on putting a fine robe nor for depression on getting one that is dirty. When the body is altered and changed it is only those earth, water, fire, air insentient elements that are altered and changed. When developing the meditation in tune with earth, water, fire, wind and space, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right wisdom, one becomes revulsed with the five elements and makes the mind dispassionate toward the natural material elements which the body is made up of. "Now if other people insult, hurt and harass one, who has discerned this, he discerns that 'A painful feeling, born of ear-contact, has arisen within me. And that is dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact.' And he sees that contact is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, consciousness is inconstant. His mind, with the element [earth, water, fire, air, space] property as its object/support, leaps up, grows confident, steadfast, & released. And if other people attack and hurt one in ways that are unjust, unfair, cruel and evil one discerns that 'This body made of 4 elements is of such a nature that painful contacts and events come. Don't forget that it is only elements that get altered, changed, affected, beated or destroyed. ===== With metta, Alex #102703 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:17 pm Subject: Ptsm: 201 things to be known truth_aerator Hello all, In Ptsm it is said that these have to be directly known: All is to be directly known: "Eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind are each to be directly known. Materiality, sensation, perception, formations, consciousness are each to be directly known. Visible objects, sounds, odors, flavors, tangible objects, ideas are each to be directly known. Eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness, mind consciousness are to be directly known. Eye contact, ear contact, nose contact, tongue contact, body contact, mind contact are to be directly known. Eye-contact-born feeling, ear-contact-born feeling, nose-contact-born feeling, tongue-contact-born feeling, body-contact-born feeling, mind-contact-born feeling are to be directly known. Perception of visible objects, perception of sounds, perception of odors, perception of flavors, perception of tangible objects, perception of ideas are to be directly known. Volition about visible objects, volition about sounds, volition about odors, volition about flavors, volition about tangible objects, volition about ideas are to be directly known. Craving for visible objects, craving for sounds, craving for odors, craving for flavors, craving for tangible objects, craving for ideas are to be directly known. Applied-thought about visible objects, applied-thought about sounds, applied-thought about odors, applied-thought about flavors, applied-thought about tangible objects, applied-thought about ideas are to be directly known. Sustained thought about visible objects, sustained thought about sounds, sustained thought about odors, sustained thought about flavors, sustained thought about tangible objects, sustained thought about ideas are to be directly known. The earth property is to be directly known, the water property, the fire property, the air property, the space property, the consciousness property is to be directly known. The earth kasina is to be directly known, the water kasina is to be directly known, the consciousness kasina is to be directly known. Head hairs is to be directly known, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine, brain to be directly known. The eye base is to be directly known, the visible-object base, the ear base, the sound base , the nose base, the mind base , the cognizable base is to be directly known. The eye element is to be directly known, the visible-object element, the eye-consciousness element, the ear element is to be directly known, the sound element, the ear-consciousness element, The nose element is to be directly known, the smell-object element, the nose-consciousness element, The tongue element is to be directly known, the taste-object element, the tongue-consciousness element, The body element is to be directly known, the tangible-object element, the body-consciousness element, the mind element , the cognizable element , the mind consciousness element is to be directly known. The eye faculty(indriya) is to be directly known, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, the body faculty , the mind faculty, the life faculty, the femininity faculty, the masculinity faculty, the faith faculty , the energy faculty, the mindfulness faculty , the concentration faculty , the understanding faculty, the final-knowledge faculty , the final-knower faculty is to be directly known. The sensual desire propertyis to be directly known, the material property, the immaterial property is to be directly known. Sensual-desire being is to be directly known, material being, percipient being. The first Jhana is to be directly known, the second Jhana , the third Jhana, the fourth Jhana is to be directly known. The heart-deliverance of loving kindness is to be directly known, the heart-deliverance of compassion , the heart deliverance of sympathetic gladness, the heart-deliverance of equanimity is to be directly known. T he attainment of the base consisting of boundless space is to be directly known, the attainment of the base consisting of boundless consciousness, the base consisting of nothingness, the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception is to be directly known. Ignorance is to be directly known, formations, consciousness , mentality-materiality , the six-fold base, contact, feeling, craving, clinging, becoming, birth, ageing-and-death is to be directly known. 3. ``Sabbam, bhikkhave, abhinneyyam. Kinca, bhikkhave, sabbam abhinneyyam? Cakkhu [cakkhum (sya. ka.)], bhikkhave, abhinneyyam; rupa abhinneyya; cakkhuvinnanam abhinneyyam; cakkhusamphasso abhinneyyo; yampidam [yamidam (ka.) sam. ni. 4.52 passitabbo] cakkhusamphassapaccaya uppajjati vedayitam sukham va dukkham va adukkhamasukham va, tampi abhinneyyam. Sotam abhinneyyam; sadda abhinneyya…pe… ghanam abhinneyyam; gandha abhinneyya… jivha abhinneyya; rasa abhinneyya… kayo abhinneyyo; photthabba abhinneyya… mano abhinneyyo; dhamma abhinneyya; manovinnanam abhinneyyam, manosamphasso abhinneyyo; yampidam manosamphassapaccaya uppajjati vedayitam sukham va dukkham va adukkhamasukham va, tampi abhinneyyam.'' Rupam abhinneyyam; vedana abhinneyya; sanna abhinneyya; sankhara abhinneyya; vinnanam abhinneyyam. Cakkhu abhinneyyam; sotam abhinneyyam; ghanam abhinneyyam; jivha abhinneyya; kayo abhinneyyo; mano abhinneyyo. Rupa abhinneyya; sadda abhinneyya; gandha abhinneyya; rasa abhinneyya; photthabba abhinneyya; dhamma abhinneyya. Cakkhuvttnnanam abhinneyyam; sotavinnanam abhinneyyam; ghanavinnanam abhinneyyam; jivhavinnanam abhinneyyam; kayavinnanam abhinneyyam; manovinnanam abhinneyyam. Cakkhusamphasso abhinneyyo; sotasamphasso abhinneyyo; ghanasamphasso abhinneyyo; jivhasamphasso abhinneyyo; kayasamphasso abhinneyyo; manosamphasso abhinneyyo; cakkhusamphassaja vedana abhinneyya; sotasamphassaja vedana abhinneyya; ghanasamphassaja vedana abhinneyya; jivhasamphassaja vedana abhinneyya; kayasamphassaja vedana abhinneyya; manosamphassaja vedana abhinneyya. Rupasanna abhinneyya; saddasanna abhinneyya; gandhasanna abhinneyya; rasasanna abhinneyya; photthabbasanna abhinneyya; dhammasanna abhinneyya. Rupasancetana abhinneyya; saddasancetana abhinneyya; gandhasancetana abhinneyya; rasasancetana abhinneyya; photthabbasancetana abhinneyya; dhammasancetana abhinneyya. Rupatanha abhinneyya; saddatanha abhinneyya; gandhatanha abhinneyya; rasatanha abhinneyya; photthabbatanha abhinneyya; dhammatanha abhinneyya. Rupavitakko abhinneyyo; saddavitakko abhinneyyo; gandhavitakko abhinneyyo; rasavitakko abhinneyyo; photthabbavitakko abhinneyyo; dhammavitakko abhinneyyo. Rupavicaro abhinneyyo; saddavicaro abhinneyyo; gandhavicaro abhinneyyo; rasavicaro abhinneyyo; photthabbavicaro abhinneyyo; dhammavicaro abhinneyyo. 4. Pathavidhatu abhinneyya; apodhatu abhinneyya; tejodhatu abhinneyya; vayodhatu abhinneyya; akasadhatu abhinneyya; vinnanadhatu abhinneyya. Pathavikasinam abhinneyyam; apokasinam abhinneyyam; tejokasinam abhinneyyam; vayokasinam abhinneyyam; nilakasinam abhinneyyam; pitakasinam abhinneyyam; lohitakasinam abhinneyyam; odatakasinam abhinneyyam; akasakasinam abhinneyyam; vinnanakasinam abhinneyyam. Kesa abhinneyya; loma abhinneyya; nakha abhinneyya; danta abhinneyya; taco abhinneyyo, mamsam abhinneyyam; nharu [naharu (sya.)] abhinneyya; atthi abhinneyya; atthiminja abhinneyya [atthimanjam abhinneyyam (sya. ka.)]; vakkam abhinneyyam; hadayam abhinneyyam; yakanam abhinneyyam; kilomakam abhinneyyam; pihakam abhinneyyam; papphasam abhinneyyam; antam abhinneyyam antagunam abhinneyyam; udariyam abhinneyyam; karisam abhinneyyam; pittam abhinneyyam; semham abhinneyyam; pubbo abhinneyyo; lohitam abhinneyyam; sedo abhinneyyo; medo abhinneyyo; assu abhinneyyam; vasa abhinneyya; kheḷo abhinneyyo; singhanika abhinneyya; lasika abhinneyya; muttam abhinneyyam; matthalungam abhinneyyam. Cakkhayatanam abhinneyyam; rupayatanam abhinneyyam. Sotayatanam abhinneyyam; saddayatanam abhinneyyam. Ghanayatanam abhinneyyam; gandhayatanam abhinneyyam. Jivhayatanam abhinneyyam; rasayatanam abhinneyyam. Kayayatanam abhinneyyam; photthabbayatanam abhinneyyam. Manayatanam abhinneyyam; dhammayatanam abhinneyyam. Cakkhudhatu abhinneyya; rupadhatu abhinneyya; cakkhuvinnanadhatu abhinneyya. Sotadhatu abhinneyya; saddadhatu abhinneyya; sotavinnanadhatu abhinneyya. Ghanadhatu abhinneyya; gandhadhatu abhinneyya; ghanavinnanadhatu abhinneyya. Jivhadhatu abhinneyya; rasadhatu abhinneyya; jivhavinnanadhatu abhinneyya. Kayadhatu abhinneyya; photthabbadhatu abhinneyya; kayavinnanadhatu abhinneyya. Manodhatu abhinneyya; dhammadhatu abhinneyya; manovinnanadhatu abhinneyya. Cakkhundriyam abhinneyyam; sotindriyam abhinneyyam; ghanindriyam abhinneyyam; jivhindriyam abhinneyyam; kayindriyam abhinneyyam; manindriyam abhinneyyam; jivitindriyam abhinneyyam; itthindriyam abhinneyyam; purisindriyam abhinneyyam; sukhindriyam abhinneyyam; dukkhindriyam abhinneyyam; somanassindriyam abhinneyyam; domanassindriyam abhinneyyam; upekkhindriyam abhinneyyam; saddhindriyam abhinneyyam; viriyindriyam [viriyindriyam (sya.)] abhinneyyam; satindriyam abhinneyyam; samadhindriyam abhinneyyam; pannindriyam abhinneyyam; anannatannassamitindriyam abhinneyyam; annindriyam abhinneyyam; annatavindriyam abhinneyyam. 5. Kamadhatu abhinneyya; rupadhatu abhinneyya; arupadhatu abhinneyya. Kamabhavo abhinneyyo; rupabhavo abhinneyyo; arupabhavo abhinneyyo. Sannabhavo abhinneyyo; asannabhavo abhinneyyo; nevasannanasannabhavo abhinneyyo. Ekavokarabhavo abhinneyyo; catuvokarabhavo abhinneyyo; pancavokarabhavo abhinneyyo. 6. Pathamam jhanam [pathamajjhanam (sya.) evamidisesu thanesu] abhinneyyam; dutiyam jhanam abhinneyyam; tatiyam jhanam abhinneyyam; catuttham jhanam abhinneyyam. Mettacetovimutti abhinneyya; karunacetovimutti abhinneyya; muditacetovimutti abhinneyya; upekkhacetovimutti abhinneyya. Akasanancayatanasamapatti abhinneyya; vinnanancayatanasamapatti abhinneyya; akincannayatanasamapatti abhinneyya; nevasannanasannayatanasamapatti abhinneyya. Avijja abhinneyya; sankhara abhinneyya; vinnanam abhinneyyam; namarupam abhinneyyam; saḷayatanam abhinneyyam; phasso abhinneyyo; vedana abhinneyya; tanha abhinneyya; upadanam abhinneyyam; bhavo abhinneyyo; jati abhinneyya; jaramaranam abhinneyyam. ======== With metta, Alex #102704 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 11/25/2009 3:58:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, all, I understand. It would be my initial intention as well. However as for high Buddhist standards, you shouldn't have even tiniest bit of anger. Things are the way they are and are not the way they are not. --------------------------------------------- You are right. Whether, at the time, anger arose or not would be beyond my control, though. I think it quite likely, however, that there would not be any anger but just a sense of urgency. ----------------------------------------------- The Buddha even said that one shouldn't resists when bandits savagely cut one to pieces or if someone strikes a Bhikkhuni. See MN21. ----------------------------------------------------- Yes, I know. I would not follow that directive, however. --------------------------------------------------- "Again Pagguna, if anyone beat those bhikkhunis with their hands or with clods, or sticks, or weapons, you should train as above. ... If anyone beats you with hands, or clods, or sticks, or weapons, you should give up that worldly interest and worldly thoughts. Phagguna, there you should train like this: `My mind will not change, I will not utter evil words, I will abide with compassion and loving kindness, without an angry thought'. O! Bhikkhus, even if robbers cut your limbs one after another with a two handled saw, if your mind be defiled on account of that, you have not done the duty in my dispensation Then too you should train thus. Our minds will not change, we will not utter evil words. We will abide compassionate with thoughts of loving kindness not angry. We will pervade that person with thoughts of loving kindness. With that same sign, grown great and developed extensively, I pervade and abide. Bhikkhus, you should train thus." http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/021-kakacu pama-sutta-e1.html I suspect that the fact that one was hurt is at least partially due to ones bad kamma. So as harsh as it sounds, they deserve it. ----------------------------------------------------- It might partly be due to kamma, but much more due to the ill will of the aggressors. In any case, I would NOT say that they deserve it. ---------------------------------------------------- And I deserve all the problems I have, as well. What can be done is to restrain bad kamma and make good kamma, and to liberate oneself. My poor health is possibly a kammic result from past, and "I" deserve it. -------------------------------------------------- We do not know all the conditions that led to your poor health. (I much regret that you are not well, BTW.) ------------------------------------------------- The fact that someone is hurt, is their kamma ripening. No need to add bad kamma to oneself. ------------------------------------------------- The kamma may have ripened at the moment of him or her being born into this realm under the conditions at hand, and the subsequent being hurt may have been largely conditioned by other factors. We just don't know and probably should not second-guess it. ------------------------------------------------------- There is enough of that already. Furthermore when someone is beat, ultimately speaking it is just 4 elements that are getting de-formed. -------------------------------------------------------- So, nothing wrong, then, in putting a sword through someone! I don't buy this at all! (In fact, the Buddha spoke against such an attitude with regard to a religious group at that time.) --------------------------------------------------------- ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102705 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > -------------------------------------------------------- > So, nothing wrong, then, in putting a sword through someone! I don't > buy this at all! (In fact, the Buddha spoke against such an attitude with > regard to a religious group at that time.) > --------------------------------------------------------- > your post> > > ============================== > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, all, It is wrong to hurt someone and no sophistry should ever excuse it. That evil action involves bad intention, bad kamma action and bad result. How ever, two wrongs do not make one right. Answering anger with anger can make a downward spiral. With metta, Alex #102706 From: A T Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:37 pm Subject: Ptsm: Equinimity about formations truth_aerator Hello Sarah, Nina and all, I've made some cut outs from Ptsm: What ten kinds of equanimity about formations arise through insight? Understanding of reflection on arising, occurrence, the sign, accumulation, rebirth-linking, destination, generation, rearising, birth, ageing, sickness, death, sorrow, lamentation, despair, and of composure, for the purpose of attaining the stream-entry path, stream-entry fruition, once-return path, once-return fruition, non-return path, non-return fruition, arhat path, arhatship fruition, the emptiness abiding, the signless abiding, and of composure is the is knowledge of equanimity about formations. These ten kinds of equanimity about formations arise through insight. What eight kinds of equanimity about formations arise through serenity? Understanding of reflection on the hindrances for the purpose of obtaining the first JhÄ?na, and of composure, is knowledge of equanimity about formations. Understanding of reflection on applied thought(vitakka) and sustained thought(vicara) for the purpose of obtaining the second JhÄ?na, and of composure, is knowledge of equanimity about formations. Understanding of reflection on happiness(piti) for the purpose of obtaining the third JhÄ?na, and of composure, is knowledge of equanimity about formations. Understanding of reflection on pleasure(sukha vedana) and pain(dukkha vedana) for the purpose of obtaining the fourth JhÄ?na, and of composure, is knowledge of equanimity about formations. Understanding of reflection on perception of materiality (rupa-saññÄ?), perception of resistance(paá¹-saññÄ?), and perception of variety(nanatta), for the purpose of obtaining the attainment of the base(ayatana) consisting of boundless space, and of composure, is knowledge of equanimity about formations. Understanding of reflection on perception of the base consisting of boundless space for the purpose of obtaining the attainment of the base consisting of boundless consciousness, and of composure, is knowledge of equanimity about formations. Understanding of reflection on perception of the base consisting of boundless consciousness for the purpose of obtaining the attainment of the base consisting of nothingness, and of composure, is knowledge of equanimity about formations. Understanding of reflection on perception of the base consisting of nothingness for the purpose of obtaining the attainment of the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception, and of composure, is knowledge of equanimity about formations. These are eight kinds of equanimity about formations arise through serenity. How many kinds of equanimity about formations are profitable? How many are unprofitable? How many are indeterminate? Fifteen kinds of equanimity about formations are profitable. Three kinds of equanimity about formations are indeterminate. There is no unprofitable equanimity about formations. Now understanding of reflection, and composure is as follows The eight domains for mind are: two for ordinary worldling, and three for the one in training, and three for one Arhant, whereby his mind has turned away. For concentration eight conditions, and ten domains for knowledge, too: These constitute the eighteen kinds of equanimity about formations, which are themselves conditions for All the three kinds of liberations. So he who has with understanding engendered all these eighteen modes is skilled in equanimity about formations, and therefore The various views will not shake, perplex and vacillitate him. Understanding of desire for deliverance, of reflection, and of composure, thus 'Arising is suffering, despair, terror, worldly, conditioned, ' is knowledge of equanimity about formations ... Arising, Occurrence, Despair, etc are formations; one looks on with equanimity at those formations: thus it is equanimity about formations In how many aspects is there guidance of mind about formations? There is guidance of mind in equanimity about formation in eight aspects. How many aspects has the guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the case of the worldling? How many aspects has the guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the case of the one in training? How many aspects has the guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the case of one who is Arhant(asekha)? The guidance of mind in equanimity about formations has two aspects in the case of the worldling. The guidance of mind in equanimity about formations has three aspects in the case of the one in training. The guidance of mind in equanimity about formations has three aspects in the case of one who is Arhant. What two aspects has the guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the case of the worldling? An worldling either delights in equanimity about formations, or he sees it with insight. The guidance of mind in equanimity about formations has these two aspects in the case of the worldling. What three aspects has the guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the case of the one in training? An one in training either delights in equanimity about formations, or he sees it with insight, or after reflecting he enters upon the attainment of fruition of the path. The guidance of mind in equanimity about formations has these three aspects in the case of the one in training. What three aspects has the guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the case of one who is Arhant? One who is Arhant either sees equanimity about formations with insight, or after reflecting he enters upon the attainment of fruition, or by looking on at it with equanimity he dwells in the void abiding or in the signless abiding or in the desireless abiding. The guidance of mind in equanimity about formations has these three aspects in the case of one who is Arhant. How is there identical guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the cases of the worldling and the one in training? When an worldling delights in the equanimity about formations he defiles his mind, and that is an obstacle to development, an obstruction to penetration, a condition for rebirth-linking. When an one in training delights in equanimity about formations he defiles his mind, and that is an obstacle to development, an obstruction to further penetration, a condition for rebirth-linking. This is how there is identical guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the cases of the worldling and the one in training. How is there identical guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the cases of the worldling, the one in training, and one who is Arhant? How is there different guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the cases of the worldling, the one in training, and one who is Arhant? An worldling sees equanimity about formations with insight as impermanent, as painful, as not self. An one in training sees equanimity about formations with insight as impermanent, as painful, as not self. One Arhant sees equanimity about formations with insight as impermanent, as painful, as not self. That is how there is identical guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the cases of the worldling, the one in training, and one who is Arhant. Equanimity about formations is profitable in an worldling. Equanimity about formations is profitable in an one who is in training. Equanimity about formations is indeterminate in one who is Arhant. That is how there is different guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the cases of the worldling, the one in training, and one who is Arhant in the sense of what is profitable and unprofitable. In the case of the worldling equanimity about formations is sometimes clearly recognized and sometimes not clearly recognized. In the case of the one in training equanimity about formations is sometimes clearly recognized and sometimes not clearly recognized. In the case of one who is Arhant equanimity about formations is always clearly recognized. That is how there is different guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the cases of the worldling, the one in training, and one who is Arhant in the sense of what is recognized and not recognized. "How is there different guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the cases of the worldling, the one in training and one who is Arhant?" An worldling sees equanimity about formations with immature insight. An one in training also sees equanimity about formations with immature insight. One Arhant sees equanimity about formations with mature insight. That is how there is different guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the cases of the worldling, the one in training and one who is Arhant in the sense of maturity and immaturity. An worldling sees equanimity about formations with insight in order to attain the stream-entry path by abandoning three fetters. An one in training also sees equanimity about formations with insight in order to obtain a higher path, the three fetters having been abandoned. One Arhant sees equanimity about formations with insight in order to abide in bliss here and now, all defilements having been abandoned. That is how there is different guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the cases of the worldling, the one in training and one who is Arhant in the sense of what is abandoned and un abandoned. An worldling with either delights in equanimity about formations, or he sees it with insight. An one in training either delights in equanimity about formations, or he sees it with insight, or after reflecting he enters upon the attainment of fruition of the path. One who is Arhant either sees equanimity about formations with insight, or after reflecting he enters upon the attainment of fruition, or by looking on at it with equanimity he dwells in the void abiding or in the signless abiding or in the desireless abiding. That is how there is different guidance of mind in equanimity about formations in the cases of the worldling, the one in training and one who is Arhant in the sense of abiding and attainment. === With metta, Alex #102707 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:49 pm Subject: Re: On Realization (Abhisamayo) (in Ptsm) szmicio Dear Alex, Howard, all sadhu, sadhu. > When one gives wise attention (yoniso manasikaroto) as impermanent, the formations (sankhara) appear as decay (khayato) and his mind has great resolution (adhimokkha). One acquires the faith faculty (saddhindriya). The faith faculty is dominant in him. In development four faculties follow upon it, are conascent conditions, are mutuality conditions, are support conditions, are association conditions, and have a single function (taste). Only those who have entered the right way develop these faculties, not those on wrong paths. When he achieves stream entry path he is called faith follower (saddhanusari). When he reaches stream entry fruition and higher, he is called Liberated by Faith (saddhavimutto). If faith follower gives wise attention to other 2 marks, (unsatisfactoriness, and not self) faith faculty is still outstanding in him. When one who has great resolution gives attention as impermanent, he aquires signless liberation (animitto vimokkho). L: When I talked about saddha(faith). I meant this yoniso manasikara conditioned by parato ghoso or hearing saddhamma. Angulimala needed just short parato ghoso. Then he could change his life completly. "I have stopped, Angulimala. You stop." > When one gives wise attention as unsatisfactory, the formation appear as fearful (bhayato) and his mind has great tranquillity (passaddhi). One acquires the concentration faculty (samadhindriya). The concentration faculty is dominant in him. In development four faculties follow upon it, are conascent conditions, are mutuality conditions, are support conditions, are association conditions, and have a single function (taste). Only those who have entered the right way develop these faculties, not those on wrong paths. He is called body witness (kayasakkhi). If body witness gives wise attention to other 2 marks, (impermanence and not self) concentration faculty is still outstanding in him. When one who has great tranquillity gives attention as unsatisfactory, desireless liberation (appanihito vimokkho) is outstanding in him. > > > When one gives wise attention as not-self, the formation appear as void and empty (sunnato), and his mind has great knowledge (veda). One acquires wisdom faculty (pannindriya). The understanding faculty is dominant in him. In development four faculties follow upon it, are conascent conditions, are mutuality conditions, are support conditions, are association conditions, and have a single function (taste). Only those who have entered the right way develop these faculties, not those on wrong paths. He is one attained to Vision. At the moment of stream entry he is called (dhammanusari) up to fruition of Arhatship he is called Attained to vision (ditthippatto). When one who has great wisdom gives attention as not self, the void liberation (sunnato vimokkho) is outstanding in him. L: This is why Abhidhamma(Compemedium of emptiness) is so important. This is the only purpose of abhidhamma, to teach us emptiness in daily life. Not just by words, but by realizing this in our lifes. The proper translation of anatta could be emptiness. One of the best translations ;> > Ptsm > At the moment of the supramundane path mind whose predominant feature is the nature of its arising is the cause and condition for knowledge, and also the mind associated with that knowledge has cessation as its domain; and knowledge whose predominant feature is seeing, is the cause and condition for the mind, and also the knowledge associated with that mind has cessation as its domain. That is how one causes realization by means of presently arisen mind at the moment of the supramundane path and by means of knowledge. L: ;> > At the moment of supramundane path there is: Right view in the sense of seeing, Right intention in the sense of directing onto, L: This samma-sankappa, sounds like cetana. The nama that directs, it's conditioned. For example, when one tries to direct intention or somethin. There is no right understanding then, thus in such moments no samma-sankapa. just sankapa. Intention of not stealing is not ours, it's anatta it does not belong to anyone. For example, If you want to give up smoking that's not you that wants to do this or have a good intention. It just looks like that ;> We can learn in our life that intention is not ours. When the killer wants to kill , we can have so much metta to him, when we found that intention is not ours, and is out of control. Buddha was vibhajavadi and that means he could point realities to us. And when he made vibhanga, thus heard can condition right understanding, This is so simple. No need to get in misery deeper and try to think of me doing. It's just couple of my thoughts Best wishes Lukas #102708 From: "colette" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:57 am Subject: Re: consciosness, contact, feeling, perception happen simulteneously ksheri3 Hi Alex, Yes, you have taken the standard position of students of the dharma, now I would like to question you about CELL PHONES. Why is it that so many people drive their cars while talking on the phone yet, somehow, they get in accidents that cause the PROTECTION RACQUET called INSURANCE COMPANIES so much trouble? Is it RESULTANT PHENOMENA that the driver was not using their eyes, had their eyes closed (see the group EAGLES "driving with your eyes closed") so that their mouth could do the driving? <....>What I'm saying is that the drivers are using their eyes and seeing YET you come along and suggest that their seeing is NOT REAL: "WHAT ONE PERCEIVES, THAT ONE COGNIZES" Pishaw, the driver, then, does not perceive that they are driving and so they are then not held accountable for their lack of cognition? Doesn't that "Spinning Wheal" look attractive? I agree with your subject line completely. It's INSTANAINEOUS. It's exactly like the reality I was trying to grasp while working with Nina's devote position on CITTAS that, after a while meditating on the concept, it finally struck me as an ELEMENTARY, a grade school, concept of reality and I felt that to be monumental since it took me a couple of years to deal with concept called SHUNYATA, then I had to place it in context of the MADHYAMIKA, boy , that wasn't fun. But I got through it and still, to this day, fall back upon those quanderies to find even more and greater illumination. Isn't that Subject Line attractive? Don't ya wanna just put each segment into a place, a category, as part of a process so that it can be copywritten? Then we get into the perplex problems of QUANTIFY and QUALIFY, since publishers don't appreciate having to pay a lacky money to "fact check" -- you've seen those lackies haven't you: they dress themselves up like turkies in an oven everyday and they go to monotenous employment jobs that they have prostituted themselves to so that they look GENERIC like all Ken dolls on the shelf at Toys R Us yet they have no concept of DEPENDENT ORIGINATION, that they are transient, and a dime a dozen. Still, they persist to go along to get along. Indeed, why did you apply such an ingenius subject line as that: "consciosness, contact, feeling, perception happen simulteneously"? I love it since I'm working in this Karma Kagyu Ngondro conceptuality today, it fits rather nicely. Thus I was asking in a sense of non-response anticipated, rhetorical. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Howard, Herman, all > > > "Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality. " - MN9 > "what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them." - MN43 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html > > Note: Contact is listed with feeling, perception, volition. #102709 From: "colette" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mantra ksheri3 Hi Howard, Bill, Lukas, et al, Yes, Howard, I was in question, myself, if you or Herman wrote what I was speaking of earlier and acredited to you, pardon me. Thanx for "waking me up" on that subject. But for this go around, lets play with it for a second in my usual whimsy: MANTRA YANA? Hmmmm, interesting. typical though, the "killer" is the only one remembered, the killed or victim is always forgotten. But that is the case when it comes to karma and those Western pigeons. Is the "killer" more important in the lesson being taught or is the killed more important? Sounds like are old friend VALUE STRUCTURE up to her old tricks with Maya and those ILLUSIONS. <....? So what does the mantra do to invoke upon the mind the propensity towards ENLIGHTENMENT? Does it, the mantra, aleave SUFFERING? Does enlightenment relieve or aleave suffering? what good is knowledge if ya can't use it? Is it repetition under the guise of "mantra" which is the actual benefit of the practice? That would mean or imply mind training and repetative motion sickness aka carpal tunnel syndrone. I think it has to do with CONCENTRATION and FOCUS since distractions are such a waste of time but can be very beneficial depending on the circumstances, the CONDITIONS. (The > word itself, I suppose, is linguistically related to 'mano'.) yea, i've noticed this same occurance in the Greek and latin, et al toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Lukas (and Billy) - > > In a message dated 11/25/2009 12:50:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > szmicio@... writes: > > Hi Billy, > > > Are mantras important? Where in the Tipataka does the Buddha mention a > mantra?<.....> #102710 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:17 pm Subject: Some thoughts on Adinava nana truth_aerator Hello all, ""When, one abides contemplating the rise and fall in regard to the five aggregates affected by holding, clinging, repulsiveness in respect of clinging is established."- A III 32,9 The wise contemplator sees that there is no permanent refuge or safety anywhere in the material objects or the body, in the feelings, perceptions, volitions or consciousness. All these offer no lasting hope, no safety place, no certainty, no possibility of lasting happiness. These 5 places may look as pleasurable on superficial glance, but not when deeply and dispassionately analyzed. They are burning places, chopping blocks, places of execution. The body can get raped, torture, mutilated and killed. The feelings that arise are structural necessity for excruciating pain to arise, for if feelings can arise, then painful feelings can arise as well. The body is the place of punishment, the painful feelings are the punishments, the consciousness is figuratively speaking "the criminal who is being tortured", consciousness is nothing but a painful wound. Pleasant cognitions are just temporary resting times before another round of torture resumes. The executioner has to rest as well, his arms get tired beating the criminal! One sees that the existence was not all that totally pleasant. The 5 aggregates, the 5 senses and the mental processes are like a cruel prison and a torture chamber, with only occasional pleasant moment between the rounds of beatings. Some unwise prisoners like to decorate their jail cells and be optimistic. Whenever someone gets torture, raped, mutilated, hurt, beaten or mistreated – they just close their eyes and focus on all the positives. This doesn't actually solve their situation, it is like ostrich hiding the head in the sand. The really optimistic prisoners are those who seek and find the way out, which is what noble paths and fruits accomplish. When one is in a burning house, the wise escape. The foolish, or perplexed people who don't know the exit watch, and some even enjoy the bright lights – even when they are about to be burned to the bone with the house on fire. The wise seek and find the rescue boat when the ship is sinking, the foolish either can't find the exit or become attached to the sinking ship, or ignore the dire warnings and paint their cabin in pink. The body is like a ship, a titanic, that is sinking. Even with the best medicine and health habits, it will grow older and eventually pass away. The ability to feel and cognize also paves the way for the ability to feel excruciating pain and suffering so much that some people in misguided search go and jump off the cliff. But the wise contemplator sees the way out, he sees that mere suicide is not the answer for if there is still willing, that willing will just condition next state of consciousness which is not going to be very happy. The wise saint (or to say more precisely the mind moment accompanied by wisdom) sees that that mental suffering is due to improper relationship with the arisen mental or physical state. The wise mind subdue the desire for things to be any other way than they already are. Without any clinging, at the final moment of life, without life being held to, consciousness ceases permanently. Only Arhat's bodily remains remain and nibbana is realized. What has arisen was just stress and inconstancy, and what has ceased was just a lot of hardship and stress. Having body means having a place that can be beaten, torture, raped and mutilated. Having the possibility to feel means that there is possibility to feel the torture, and even the bare cognition is the inner wound of suffering. So with passing away of 5 aggregates, without any regenerative force conditioning new existence, all that is felt grows cold right here, mere bodily remains are left as wormfood, discarded like a log. When one reaches Nibbana, the mission is accomplished and all suffering is no more. Ultimate state of peace is achieved and it can only be described as all suffering has reached final and permanent cessation. Seeing all formations as fearful produces desire for deliverance from them, like a criminal desiring to escape from the torture chamber. The desire for deliverance pushes the one in training to review 5 aggregates fully in the light of the knowledge so far acquired. Due to this, trainee achieves composure at the prospect of abandoning them and the next stage is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/102706 With metta, Alex #102711 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 11/25/2009 4:21:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > -------------------------------------------------------- > So, nothing wrong, then, in putting a sword through someone! I don't > buy this at all! (In fact, the Buddha spoke against such an attitude with > regard to a religious group at that time.) > --------------------------------------------------------- > your post> > > ============================== > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, all, It is wrong to hurt someone and no sophistry should ever excuse it. That evil action involves bad intention, bad kamma action and bad result. How ever, two wrongs do not make one right. Answering anger with anger can make a downward spiral. ------------------------------------------------- I completely agree with you on that! :--) ------------------------------------------------ With metta, Alex ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102712 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:55 pm Subject: Difference between name and form truth_aerator Hello all, Q. What are the differences between name and form? A. Name has no body; form has body. Name is hard to discern; form is easily discerned. Name proceeds quickly; form proceeds slowly. Name does not accumulate; form accumulates. Name excogitates, knows, considers, is aware; form does not do these. Form walks, leans, sits, lies down, bends and stretches; name does not do these. Name knows: "I go", "I lean", "I sit", "I lie down", "I bend", "I stretch"; form does not know these. Form drinks, eats, chews, tastes; name does not do these. Name knows: "I drink", "I eat", "I chew", "I taste"; form does not know these. Form claps the hands, frolics, laughs, cries and talks in many ways; name does not do these. Name knows thus: "I clap", "I frolic", "I laugh", "I cry", "I talk in such and such a manner"; form does not know these. These are the differences between name and form; and that yogin knows name and form thus: "Only name and form are here; there is no being, there is no soul". Thus he, making it manifest, gets the perception of the formations. - Vim === Anyone wants to discuss what was said above? With metta, Alex #102713 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:21 pm Subject: Some notes on Dependent Origination truth_aerator Hello all, Some notes that I'd like to share with all. Reverse order: What is that makes Aging, sickness, death, pain and all the unsatisfactoriness possible? When Birth can occur, then Aging, sickness, death, pain and all the unsatisfactoriness is possible. Without Birth, there isn't anything that can Age, get sick, die, experience pain and all the unsatisfactoriness. This applies to the past, future and present. `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. What is the requisite for Birth? When Becoming can occur, Birth can occur as it is becoming someone. Without Becoming , Birth cannot possibly occur as birth is becoming this someone. This applies to the past, future and present. `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. What is the requisite of Becoming? When Clinging/Holding occurs, Becoming can occur. Without Clinging/Holding, Becoming cannot possibly occur. This applies to the past, future and present. `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. What is the requisite of Clinging/Holding? With craving, Clinging/Holding can occur. Without Craving, Clinging/Holding cannot occur. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. What is the requisite of Craving? When Feeling is, Craving can occur. Without feeling, Craving cannot occur (what will it crave?). This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. What is the requisite of Feeling? Due to Contact, Feeling can occur. Without contact, Feeling cannot occur. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. What is the requisite of Contact? With Six sense faculties, Contact can occur. Without Six sense faculties, Contact cannot occur. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. What is the requisite of six sense faculties? With Mind&Body, Six sense faculties can occur (5 sense organs + 5 sense objects are physical, mind base is mental) . Without Mind&Body, Six sense faculties cannot occur. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. What is the requisite of Mind&Body? With consciousness, Mind&Body can grow and develop in the womb. Without consciousnes, Mind&Body in the womb cannot occur. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. What is the requisite of Consciousness? With Mind&Body present, then Consciousness can occur. Without Mind&Body, there isn't anything that can be cognizable, thus consciousness cannot occur. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. What is the requisite of rebirth consciousness? With Volitional impulses conditioning future mental states, there is descent of consciousness into the womb. Without volitional impulses, resultant Consciousness cannot occur This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. What is the requisite of volitional impulses? Due to Ignorance, there are resultant and misguided Volitional impulses (positive or negative). Without Ignorance, Volitional impulses cannot be made. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. What is the requisite of ignorance? Previous ignorance is the requisite of ignorance and absence of wisdom (vijjā) is manifestation of ignorance (avijjā). This was true in the past, will be true in the future, and is true in the present. The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. Forward Order: When Ignorance can occur, Volitional impulses can occur. When Ignorance cannot occur, Volitional impulses cannot occur. This applies to the past, future and present. `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. When Volitional impulses can occur, Consciousness can occur. When Volitional impulses cannot occur, Consciousness cannot occur. This applies to the past, future and present. `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. When Consciousness occurs in the womb, Mind&Body can occur and develop. When Consciousness cannot occur, Mind&Body cannot grow and develop. This applies to the past, future and present. . `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. When Mind&Body can occur, Six sense faculties can occur. When Mind&Body cannot occur, Six sense faculties cannot occur. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. When Six sense faculties can occur, Contact can occur. When Six sense faculties cannot occur, Contact cannot occur. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. When Contact can occur, Feeling can occur. When Contact cannot occur, Feeling cannot occur. In the past too with the arising of Contact, Feeling has can occur. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. When Feeling can occur, Craving can occur. When Feeling cannot occur, Craving cannot occur. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. When Craving can occur, Clinging/Holding can occur. When Craving cannot occur, Clinging/Holding cannot occur. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. When Clinging/Holding can occur, Becoming can occur. When Clinging/Holding cannot occur, Becoming cannot occur. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. When Becoming can occur, Birth can occur. When Becoming cannot occur, Birth cannot occur. In the past too with the arising of Becoming, Birth has can occur. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. With Birth, then there is something that can Age, get sick, die, experience pain and all the unsatisfactoriness. Without Birth, there isn't anything to Age, get sick, die, experience pain and all the unsatisfactoriness. This applies to the past, future and present `The knowledge of the persisting nature of phenomena too is subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. With metta, Alex #102714 From: han tun Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:21 pm Subject: [dsg] The Offending Clause In The Translation Re-- It Is Parittam, Not Mantra hantun1 Dear Suan and Billy, In my last post I have posted Angulimala Paritta in English which I took it from the following link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/piyadassi/protection.html#app1 But in Burma we recite Parittas in Pali text and not in Burmese translation. Therefore, if Billy wishes to chant it in Pali I give below the Pali text and the English translation from another source. -------------------- Angulimala Paritta (1) paritta.m ya.m bha.nantassa, nisinna.t.thaanadhovana.m; udakampi vinaaseti, sabbameva parissaya.m. (2) sotthinaa gabbhavu.t.thaana.m, ya~nca saadheti ta"nkha.ne; therassa Angulimalassa, lokanaathena bhaasita.m; kappa.t.thaayi.m mahaateja.m, paritta.m ta.m bha.naama he. (3) yato ha.m bhagini ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato, naabhijaanaami sa~ncicca paa.na.m jiivitaa voropetaa; tena saccena sotthi te hotu sotthi gabbhassa. -------------------- (1) Even the water that rinsed the seat of the Elder who recited this discourse of protection did eradicate all the dangerous difficulties. (2) That very paritta discourse has the power to accomplish the labour of child-birth healthily. This is the paritta sutta which had been expounded by Lord of the worlds to Venerable Angulimala, the great magical power of which may last long for the entire aeon. Oh thou! Let us recite this discourse of protection. (3) "I, sister, am in my awareness have not intentionally deprived any living thing of life since I was born of the Ariyan birth. By this truth may there be well-being for you, and well-being for the conceived foetus". -------------------- Han: When the Buddha first asked Angulimala to go to the woman and say to her, "Sister, since I was born I do not recall intentionally killing a living being." the Pali words were "yatoha.m bhagini jaato" which could mean that since he was born as a human being. But Angulimala had killed people. So to make it more precise, the Buddha asked him to say, "yatoha.m bhagini ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato". It may be argued that at that time, Angulimala was not yet an Arahant, so how could he say since ariyaa birth? The Commentary says that in this particular case, the Buddha asked him to use the word ariyaa jaato, because in this story monk-hood for Angulimala was indeed ariyaa-hood, and Angulimala became an arahant soon afterwards. Another argument that could be raised is does it not amount to treating patients, which the monks are not supposed to do? The Commentary says that "na hi saccakiriyaa vejjakamma.m hoti", meaning "asseveration of truth is not medical treatment". Dear Suan, please correct me if my above comments are wrong. with metta and respect, Han #102715 From: han tun Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:46 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (74) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 9.Groups of Ruupas (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ---------------------------------- The groups of ruupas produced by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition are interrelated and support one another. If only kamma would produce ruupas the body could not continue to exist. We read in the "Visuddhimagga" (XVII, 196): ".... But when they thus give consolidating support to each other, they can stand up without falling, like sheaves of reeds propped up together on all four sides, even though battered by the wind, and like (boats with) broken floats that have found a support, even though battered by waves somewhere in mid-ocean, and they can last one year, two years,... a hundred years, until those beings' life span or their merit is exhausted." The "Atthasaalinii" (I, Book I, Part III, Ch I, 84), in the context of bodily intimation, explains that groups of ruupa produced by citta are interlocked with groups of ruupas produced by kamma, temperature and nutrition. We read: When the body set up by mind (citta) moves, does the body set up by the other three causes move or not? The latter moves likewise, goes with the former, and invariably follows it. Just as dry sticks, grass, etc., fallen in the flowing water go with the water or stop with it, so should the complete process be understood.... The study of the groups of ruupas produced by the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition and also their interrelation shows us the complexity of the conditions for the bodily phenomena and functions from birth to death [Note 9]. It reminds us that there is no self who can control the body. [Note 9] For details see: Atthasaalinii II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 342, 343, and Visuddhimagga XX, 32-43. ------------------------------ Chapter 9. Groups of Ruupas to be continued. with metta, Han #102716 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:45 pm Subject: 18 elements & conditions truth_aerator Hello all, Anyone interested in discussing patthana conditions for elements (VsM XV 35) ? Condition: the eye element, firstly, is a condition, in six ways namely, dissociation, prenascence, presence, non-disappearance, support, and faculty for the eye-consciousness element. The visible-data element is a condition, in four ways, namely, prenascence, presence, non-disappearance, and object, for the eye-consciousness element. Similarly with the ear-element and the sound element for the ear-consciousness element and so on, The adverting mind element is a condition, as the five conditions, namely, proximity, contiguity, absence, disappearance, and proximity- decisive-support, for these five [beginning with the eye-consciousness element]. And these five are so too for the receiving mind element. And so is the receiving mind element for the investigating mind-consciousness element. And so is that too for the determining mind-consciousness element. And so is the determining mind-consciousness element for impulsion mind-consciousness element. But the impulsion mind-consciousness element is a condition, as the six conditions, namely, as the five already stated and as repetition condition, for the immediately following impulsion mind-consciousness element. This, firstly, is the way in the case of the five doors. 37. In the case of the mind door, however, the life-continuum mind-consciousness element is a condition, as the previously-stated five conditions, for the adverting mind-consciousness element (71). And the adverting mind-consciousness element is so for the impulsion mind-consciousness element. 38. The mental-data element is a condition in many ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, association, presence, non-disappearance, etc., for the seven consciousness elements. The eye element, etc., and some of the mental-data element, are conditions, as object condition, etc., for some of the mind-consciousness element. ====== With metta, Alex #102717 From: Herman Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/26 truth_aerator > Hi Howard, all > > I suspect that the fact that one was hurt is at least partially due to ones > bad kamma. So as harsh as it sounds, they deserve it. This view is commonly known in the West as "blaming the victim". Societies where this view is prevalent are demonstrably void of any ideals of social justice. Cheers Herman #102718 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:59 pm Subject: Re: Ptsm: Equinimity about formations szmicio Dear Alex, I enjoy your recent posts so much, so much. This is so helpful to me. I just wanna say to all people on the group just read, no expactations, no need to think much. Just read. Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > > Hello Sarah, Nina and all, > > > I've made some cut outs from Ptsm: > > > What ten kinds of equanimity about formations arise through insight? #102719 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:13 pm Subject: Re: Difference between name and form szmicio Dear Alex, There's someting wrong with that. You should re-read it. I mean: Nama is hard to discern, ruupa is esily to discern and Nama does not accumulate, ruupa accumulates. Best wishes Lukas > Q. What are the differences between name and form? > A. Name has no body; form has body. Name is hard to discern; form > is easily discerned. Name proceeds quickly; form proceeds slowly. Name does not accumulate; form accumulates. Name excogitates, knows, considers, is aware; form does not do these. Form walks, leans, sits, lies down, bends and stretches; name does not do these. Name knows: "I go", "I lean", "I sit", "I lie down", "I bend", "I stretch"; form does not know these. Form drinks, eats, chews, tastes; name does not do these. Name knows: "I drink", "I eat", "I chew", "I taste"; form does not know these. Form claps the hands, frolics, laughs, cries and talks in many ways; name does not do these. Name knows thus: "I clap", "I frolic", "I laugh", "I cry", "I talk in such and such a manner"; form does not know these. These are the differences between name and form; and that yogin knows name and form thus: "Only name and form are here; there is no being, there is no soul". Thus he, making it manifest, gets the perception of the formations. - Vim #102720 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) szmicio Dear Alex, > It is wrong to hurt someone and no sophistry should ever excuse it. That evil action involves bad intention, bad kamma action and bad result. > > > How ever, two wrongs do not make one right. Answering anger with anger can make a downward spiral. L: For sure no one should hurt anyone. You know anger with anger reminder from Sutta, you know a lot from Sutta. But you could not be sure of the meaning. The Sutta is extramaly hard, even it sounds very clear. When 4 Noble Truths are realizing gradually in life we can know the meaning of Sutta. This is not how you think now. This is different, very different. Very against the stream of resonable thinking. It's not for wordlings. I think it's good to read in detailed way, then we are not so leading astray just by concepts. And it really helps sacca nana to be develop more. Anger could not be fight back with anger, so wise. We can hear that and restraining can arise, and you decide not to fight back. Again a few of my comments, I wanna say. Best wishes Lukas #102721 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) szmicio Hello Howard, > It is wrong to hurt someone and no sophistry should ever excuse it. That > evil action involves bad intention, bad kamma action and bad result. > > > How ever, two wrongs do not make one right. Answering anger with anger can > make a downward spiral. > ------------------------------------------------- > I completely agree with you on that! :--) > ------------------------------------------------ L: You gave your appreciation ;> It can been done with kusala or akusala citta. Depends. It's really helpful to develop more samatha in life. But remember the samatha level of development is development of panna that discerns the kusala from akusala, it knows what is what and als knows a condition to more kusala(I think). So just being a good guy without knowing the kusala and aksuala it's not samatha. Best wishes Lukas #102722 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:52 pm Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, How can a deed performed in the past produce its result later on? Kamma, or the volition which accompanies the citta when a good deed or a bad deed is performed, falls away immediately together with the citta. However, since each citta which falls away is succeeded by the next citta, kamma can be accumulated from moment to moment. Its dynamic force is carried on and when the time is ripe it can produce its result. That is the chain of causal action we read about in the above quoted sutta. The same sutta mentions the kinds of akusala kamma performed through body, speech and mind. Not every akusala citta is of the intensity of akusala kamma which can produce a result. When there is clinging to a pleasant sight or sound there is akusala citta but not akusala kamma which could produce a result. Clinging, however, has many degrees. It can be more subtle or it can be strong, such as covetousness, the desire for someone else’s property. This has the intensity of akusala kamma when one plans to take away what belongs to someone else. Kusala kamma comprises abstaining from evil deeds as well as the performing of good deeds, deeds of generosity and mental development, such as the study of the Buddha’s teachings and the development of understanding of the realities of our life. Moments of happiness and misery alternate in our life. The experiences of pleasant objects and unpleasant objects through the senses do not occur by chance, they must have a cause: kamma is the cause. We read in the Gradual Sayings (IV, Book of the Eights, Chapter I, §5, Worldly Failings) that the Buddha said to the monks: Monks, these eight worldly conditions obsess the world; the world revolves round these eight worldly conditions. What eight? Gain and loss, fame and obscurity, blame and praise, bodily ease and pain. Monks, these eight worldly conditions obsess the world, the world revolves round these eight worldly conditions. Gain, loss, obscurity and fame, And censure, praise, bodily ease, pain- These are man’s states—impermanent, Of time and subject unto change. And recognizing these the sage, Alert, discerns these things of change; Fair things his mind never agitate, Nor foul his spirit vex. Gone are Compliance and hostility, Gone up in smoke and are no more. The goal he knows. In measure full He knows the stainless, griefless state. Beyond becoming has he gone. ****** Nina #102723 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 18 elements & conditions nilovg Dear Alex, Op 26-nov-2009, om 3:45 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Anyone interested in discussing patthana conditions for elements > (VsM XV 35) ? ------- N: Very good, appreciating. It is good to remember that all this is not theory. All these conditions occur now in daily life. The study reminds us that there is no single citta that we can cause to arise, it has already arisen because of conditions. We are reminded of anattaness. Nina. #102724 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between name and form upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas (and Alex) - In a message dated 11/26/2009 2:14:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Alex, There's someting wrong with that. You should re-read it. I mean: Nama is hard to discern, ruupa is esily to discern and Nama does not accumulate, ruupa accumulates. ----------------------------------------------- Just the opposite. Rupa arises and ceases. But without "accumulation" of nama, there is no learning, no habituation, and no strengthening of mental traits. ---------------------------------------------- Best wishes Lukas ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102725 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:27 am Subject: Correcting The Offending Clause In The Translation Re-- It Is Parittam, abhidhammika Dear Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Billy, Ken O, Alex, Freawaru, Howard, Robert K, Phil, Jon, Sarah How are you? Thank you, Uncle U Han Tun, for reproducing Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Pali paragraph from Angulimaala Suttam. The term "jaati" in the clause `Yatoham, bhagini, ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato', means morality (siilam), not birth, as Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi translated. Buddhaghosa listed the meanings of the term `jaati' in elaborating on the noble truth of Dukkha when he expounded the Four Noble Truths in Visuddhimaggo. Among the listed meanings, he gave one meaning of jaati as noble morality by quoting the clause under discussion from Angulimaala Suttam as follows. "Yatoham, bhagini, ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato"ti ettha ariyasiile. `In this clause `Sister, since the time I have been with ariyaa jaaati', the term `jaati' occurs in the sense of noble morality.' Section 537, Jaatiniddeso, Dukkhaniddesakathaa, Saccavitthaarakathaa, 16. Indriyasaccaniddeso, Visuddhimaggo - 2 Here is a translation of the Pali paragraph with the term `jaati' in correct rendering. "Tena hi tvam, angulimaala, yena saa itthii tenupasankama; upasankamitvaa tam itthim evam vadehi `yatoham, bhagini, ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato, naabhijaanaami sañcicca paa.nam jiivitaa voropetaa, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassaa'" ti. "If so, Angulimaala, you go where that woman lives, and having gone, tell that woman thus, `Sister, since the time I have been with noble morality, I am not aware of deliberately disconnecting a sentient being from life. By that truthful statement, may there be wellbeing to you and wellbeing to the foetus.'" With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: Dear Suan, The translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi is as follows: [Then, Angulimala, go into Saavatthi and say to that woman: "Sister, since I was born with the noble birth, I do not recall that I have ever intentionally deprived a living being of life. By this truth, may you be well and may your infant be well!"] I think you will still find it unsatisfactory. The translation of "ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato" as "born with the noble birth" may still be wrong. You may kindly give the correct translation. Thank you very much. #102726 From: han tun Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:09 am Subject: [dsg] Correcting The Offending Clause In The Translation Re-- It Is Parittam, hantun1 Dear Suan, > Suan: Here is a translation of the Pali paragraph with the term `jaati' in correct rendering. "Tena hi tvam, angulimaala, yena saa itthii tenupasankama; upasankamitvaa tam itthim evam vadehi `yatoham, bhagini, ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato, naabhijaanaami sañcicca paa.nam jiivitaa voropetaa, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassaa'" ti. "If so, Angulimaala, you go where that woman lives, and having gone, tell that woman thus, `Sister, since the time I have been with noble morality, I am not aware of deliberately disconnecting a sentient being from life. By that truthful statement, may there be wellbeing to you and wellbeing to the foetus.'" -------------------- Han: Thank you very much. with metta and respect, Han #102727 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:27 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (315, 9 ) and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 9. Walshe DN 33.2.1(9) 'Five rules of training (sikkhaapadaani): refraining from taking life, taking what is not given, sexual misconduct, lying speech, strong drink and sloth-producing drugs (suraa-meraya-maja- pamaada.t.thaanaa). (Pa~nca sikkhaapadaani - paa.naatipaataa verama.nii, adinnaadaanaa verama.nii, kaamesumicchaacaaraa verama.nii, musaavaadaa verama.nii, suraamerayamajjappamaada.t.thaanaa verama.nii.) ------- N: The co. analyses the term sikkhaapada.m: pada.m is basis or foundation. It is the basis or part for training (sikkhaapada.m, sikkhaako.t.thaaso). It is the means of attainment of the training in higher citta and higher pa~n~naa. This is the meaning in brief. The exposition of the Vibha”nga (Book of Analysis) in the chapter on the Precepts (ch 14) is a detailed explanation. We read in the Vibha”nga (290): ‘Which dhammas are trainings?’ (katame dhammaa sikkhaa?). The Vibhanga then deals with sobhana citta of the sense sphere that experiences a sense object or a concept or whatever object, and is accompanied by contact and the other cetasikas. This reminds us that there is no question of a person who trains himself, there are only citta and cetasikas. The “Dispeller of Delusion” explains: ‘Herein, since all profitable states of the four planes are trainings because they should be trained in, therefore yasmi.m samaye kaamaavacara.m (‘on what occasion a sensesphere...’) and so on is said in order to point these out.> As we read, < It is the means of attainment(adhigama) of the training in higher citta and higher pa~n~naa.>. Higher siila, higher citta (concentration) and higher pa~n~naa go together at the moment right understanding of the present reality is being developed. The sotaapanna has developed pa~n~naa to the degree of attaining the first stage of enlightenment. He cannot transgress the precepts anymore, even when he would be in danger of life. As Sarah writes: (Sarah quotes) From the commentary to the Muulapariyaaya Sutta, B.Bodhi: "In what sense is the learner called by this name? He is a learner because he has obtained the qualities that make him a learner. For this is said: 'To what extent, Lord, is one a learner?' 'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu is endowed with a learner's right view....a learner's right concentration. To this extent a bhikkhu is a learner' (S 45:13/v.14). Moreover, 'he learns (sikkhati), therefore he is a learner.' For this is said: 'He learns, bhikkhu, thus he is called a learner. And what does he learn? He learns the higher virtue, the higher consciousness, and the higher wisdom. He learns, bhikkhu, thus he is called a learner' (A 3:84/i, 231)." ******** Nina. ---- #102728 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Correcting The Offending Clause In The Translation Re-- It Is Parittam, nilovg Dear Suan and Han, Op 26-nov-2009, om 14:27 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > "Yatoham, bhagini, ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaato"ti ettha ariyasiile. > > `In this clause `Sister, since the time I have been with ariyaa > jaaati', the term `jaati' occurs in the sense of noble morality.' -------- N: Buddhaghosa explains that ariyaa jaati means the noble siila and that is correct. One who has become an ariyan, is 'born' an ariyan will have siila which is enduring, will not commit akusala kamma. However, I think that in the text we can keep to the 'ariyan birth'. Buddhaghosa helps us to understand the meaning. But this does not mean that we have to change the text itself. Nina. #102729 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:11 am Subject: Re: Difference between name and form truth_aerator Hi Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > There's someting wrong with that. You should re-read it. > I mean: Nama is hard to discern, ruupa is esily to discern That is correct. It is even said so in VsM. It is easier to be aware of body than of mind. and > Nama does not accumulate, ruupa accumulates. > > Best wishes > Lukas The above is not a good translation. Accumulation means "gaining weight, or other physical dimensions". Since mentality has no size, and is formless, it does not accumulate size. With metta, Alex > > Q. What are the differences between name and form? #102730 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) truth_aerator Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2009/11/26 truth_aerator > > > Hi Howard, all > > > > I suspect that the fact that one was hurt is at least partially due to ones > > bad kamma. So as harsh as it sounds, they deserve it. > > > This view is commonly known in the West as "blaming the victim". Societies > where this view is prevalent are demonstrably void of any ideals of social > justice. > > Cheers > > Herman It is standart teaching of Buddhist fairness. Kamma is fair. When someone suffers, it is indirectly due to their past kamma. So they are "guilty". However what is good, is to have compassion on them and send loving kindness toward them. It is good to help the poor and those in need. If one mistreats the disadvantaged ones, that person gains bad kamma for himself. Maybe those who suffer dearly now were the aggressors in the past lives (Such as nazis)? However we must remember the possibility of change. People can wisen up and become saints, even if they were Nazi and other cruel people in the past lives. With metta, Alex #102731 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness ashkenn2k Dear James, Howard and Lukas Dhamma discussion is friendly. Lets be respectful. If we make a mistake in offending others, lets us make good to it. pg 122 and 123 Perfections "Even wise men may quarrel, but quickly they can become closely united again" "If someone knows the wrong by which he offended someone else, and he expresses in words that he was wrong, both people can live in greater harmony, their friendship cannot be destroyed." Again I sincerely hope we make our dicussion friendly and respectful. With metta Ken O #102732 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself ashkenn2k Dear pt I am not a scientist. I watch documentary about space and I believe radio waves travel in deep space. Cheers Ken O #102733 From: "connie" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:03 am Subject: happy thanksgiving nichiconn dear victims panel, I am just remembering the excitement in my friend's voice this morning, telling me about how when she'd been grabbed by the shirt and punched in the face recently, not the least anger, but "the neatest feeling ever" arose & she'd apologized to her friend, saying she was sorry that one had felt that need & wished her well. Did she deserve it? Would I deny her that? I'm happy for her that it happened. peace, connie #102734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between name and form nilovg Dear Alex and Lukas, Op 26-nov-2009, om 17:11 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > That is correct. It is even said so in VsM. It is easier to be > aware of body than of mind. ------ N: Visible object or sound appears all the time. The naamas that experience these objects are more concealed, they are more subtle. Though not impossible to know them. They are known through the mind- door and only when the first stage of insight is reached we know what a mind-door process is. Now it is concealed, we only know in theory, we know 'the story' about them. Alex, I have an idea. All these texts of Ptsm are too good to read quickly. Your posts are too long and then it becomes too much, people will not read them. Could you go over them again in small parts, so that we can discuss them? A quarter page at a time, a few lines at a time? How do you manage it all? Do you have a scanner? ------ Nina. #102735 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between name and form truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > we know 'the story' about them. > > Alex, I have an idea. All these texts of Ptsm are too good to read > quickly. Your posts are too long and then it becomes too much, people will not read them. Could you go over them again in small parts, so that we can discuss them? A quarter page at a time, a few lines at a time? > Maybe I should do that. > How do you manage it all? Do you have a scanner? > ------ > Nina. Parts of them were typed by Tep. Parts I've typed from Ptsm book manually. The good thing about word programs is the ability to re-arrange passages. Unfortunately Ptsm was orally transmitted, and thus has all the peculiarities of oral text. Because of that, I've started to write a guide for myself, mostly dealing with Ptsm material, although plenty of my own comments and VsM excerpts. Purification of Virtue Purification of Mind Purification of View Analytical knowledge of body and mind Purification by Overcoming Doubt Chapter on Faculties Knowledge of Rise and Fall Purification by Knowledge and Vision of What is Path and Not-path Purification by Knowledge and Vision of the Course of Practice Knowledge of Appearance as Terror Knowledge of Equanimity about formations Purification by Knowledge and Vision Purification of wisdom Chapter on Brief summary of the path With metta, Alex #102736 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:49 am Subject: Ptsm: 73 nanas truth_aerator Hello all, Patisabhidamagga of Sutta pitaka lists these knowledges: I. Understanding of applying the ear is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt) -- suttamayanana. II. Understanding of restraint after hearing is knowledge of what consists in virtue -- silamayanana. III. Understanding of concentrating after restraining is knowledge of what consists in development of concentration -- bhavanamayanana. IV. Understanding of embracing conditions is knowledge of the causal relationship of phenomena -- dhammathitinana. V. Understanding of defining past, future and present phenomena, after generalization, is knowledge of comprehension -- sammasananana. VI. Understanding of contemplating presently-arisen phenomena' change is knowledge of contemplation of rise and fall --udayabbayanupassana nana. VII. Understanding of contemplating dissolution after reflecting on an object is knowledge of insight -- vipassananana. VIII. Understanding of appearance as terror is knowledge of danger --adinavanana. IX. Understanding for desire of deliverance, of reflection, and of composure, is knowledge of the kinds of equanimity of formations -- sankharupekkhanana. X. Understanding of emergence and turning away from the external is change-of-lineage knowledge -- gotrabhunana. XI. Understanding of emergence and turning away from both [the external and internal] is knowledge of the path -- magganana. XII. Understanding of tranquilization of the tasks is knowledge of fruition -- phalanana. XIII. Understanding of contemplating what is cut off is knowledge of deliverance -- vimuttinana. XIV. Understanding of insight into phenomena then arrived at is knowledge of reviewing -- paccavekkhananana. XV. Understanding of defining internally is knowledge of difference in the physical basis -- vatthunanattanana. XVI. Understanding of defining externally is knowledge of difference in the domains [of the physical bases] -- gocarananattanana. XVII. Understanding of Understanding of defining behavior is knowledge of difference in behavior [of consciousness] -- cariyananattanana. XVIII. Understanding of defining four phenomena is knowledge of difference in plane -- bhuminanattanana. XIX. Understanding of defining nine phenomena is knowledge of difference in phenomenon -- dhammananattanana. XX. Understanding as direct knowledge is knowledge of the meaning of what-is-known -- natattanana. XXI. Understanding as full understanding is knowledge of the meaning of judgment (investigation) -- tiranattanana. XXII. Understanding as abandoning is knowledge in the sense of giving up -- pariccagattanana. XXIII. Understanding as developing is knowledge in the sense of single function(taste) -- ekarasattanana. XXIV. Understanding as realizing is knowledge in the sense of sounding -- phassanattanana. XXV. Understanding of difference in meaning is knowledge of discrimination in meaning -- atthapatisambhidanana. XXVI. Understanding of difference in phenomena is knowledge of discrimination in phenomena -- dhammapatisambhidanana. XXVII. Understanding of difference in language is knowledge of discrimination of language -- niruttipatisambhidanana. XXVIII. Understanding of difference in perspicuity is knowledge of discrimination of perspicuity -- patibhanapatisambhidanana. XXIX. Understanding of difference in abiding is knowledge of the meaning of abiding -- viharattanana. XXX. Understanding of difference in attainment is knowledge of the meaning of attainment -- samapattattanana. XXXI. Understanding of difference in abiding and attainment is knowledge of the meaning of abiding and attainment -- viharasamapattattanana. XXXII. Understanding of cutting off of cankers due to pureness of non-distraction is knowledge of concentration with immediate[result] -- anantarika-samadhinana. XXXIII. Understanding as predominance of seeing, and as achievement of a peaceful abiding, and as resoluteness on the sublime goal, is knowledge of abiding without conflict -- aranaviharanana. XXXIV. Understanding as mastery owing to possession of two powers, to the tranquilization of three formations, to sixteen kinds of behavior of knowledge, and to nine kinds of behavior of concentration, is knowledge of the attainment of cessation -- nirodhasamapattinana. XXXV. Understanding of the termination of occurrence in one who is fully aware is knowledge of extinguishment – parinibbananana XXXVI. Understanding of the complete cutting off of all phenomena, of their cessation, and of their non-reappearance, is knowledge of the meaning of same-headed-ness -- samassisattanana. XXXVII. Understanding of separation, of difference and unity, and of termination of fires, is knowledge of effacement -- sallekhattanana. XXXVIII. Understanding of the meaning of exertion in those possessed of bestirring and endeavour is knowledge of the application of energy -- viriyarambhanana. XXXIX. Understanding of explaining different phenomena is knowledge of demonstrating meanings -- atthasandassananana. XL. Understanding of penetrating the includability of all phenomena as one, and of their difference and unity, is knowledge of purity in seeing -- dassanavisuddhinana. XLI. Understanding due to what is recognized is knowledge as choice -- khantinana. XLII. Understanding due to what is touched is knowledge of fathoming – pariyogahananana. XLIII. Understanding of combination is knowledge of abiding in [the review of phenomena as] parts -- patesaviharanana. XLIV. Understanding due to what is given predominance is knowledge of turning away through perception -- sannavivattanana. XLV. Understanding of difference is knowledge of turning away by the will -- cetovivattanana. XLVI. Understanding of establishing is knowledge of the turning away of mind --cittavivattanana. XLVII. Understanding of voidness is knowledge of the turning away by knowledge -- nanavivattanana. XLVIII. Understanding of relinquishment is knowledge of turning away by liberation -- vimokkhavivattanana. XLVIX. Understanding of the meaning of suchness is knowledge of turning away in the truths -- saccavivattanana. L. Understanding of the meaning of succeeding by defining body and mind as one and by steadying easy perception and quick perception is knowledge of the kinds of success (supernormal powers) - iddhividhanana. LI. Understanding of fathoming sound signs in their difference and unity is knowledge of purification of the ear principle -- sotadhatuvisuddhinana. LII. Understanding of fathoming behaviour of consciousness in its difference and unity by means of confidence[and non-confidence] in the [six] faculties due to intervention by three types of cogniznce is knowledge of penetration of wills (hearts) -- cetopariyanana. LIII. Understanding of fathoming phenomena conditionallly arisen through intervention of difference and unity in action(kamma) is knowledge of recollection of past life -- pubbenivasaanussatinana. LIV. Understanding of seeing the meaning as signs of visible objects in their difference and unity by means of illumination is knowledge of divine eye -- dibbacakkhunana. LV. Understanding as mastery of three faculties in sixty-four aspects is knowledge of exhaustion of cankers -- asavakkhayanana. LVI. Understanding of the meaning of full-understanding is knowledge of suffering -- dukkhanana. LVII. Understanding of the meaning of abandoning is knowledge of origin -- samudayanana. LVIII. Understanding of the meaning of realizing is knowledge of cessation -- nirodhanana. LIX. Understanding of the meaning of developing is knowledge of the path -- magganana. LX. Knowledge of suffering -- dukkhanana. LXI. Knowledge of the origin of suffering - dukkhasamudayanana. LXII. Knowledge of the cessation of suffering - dukkhanirodhanana. LXIII. Knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering --dukkhanirodhagaminipatipadanana. LXIV. Knowledge of discrimination of meaning -- atthapatisambhidanana. LXV. Knowledge of discrimination of phenomena -- dhammapatisambhidanana. LXVI. Knowledge of discrimination of language -- niruttipatisambhidanana. LXVII. Knowledge of discrimination of perspicuity -- patibhanapatisambhidanana. [Knowledge Not Shared by Disciples ] LXVIII. Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties -- indriyaparopariyattinana. LXIX. Knowledge of beings' biasses and underlying tendencies -- asayanusayanana. LXX. Knowledge of the Twin Metamorphosis (Marvel) -- yamakapatihariyanana. LXXI. Knowledge of the Great Compassion -- mahakarunasamapattinana. LXXII. Omniscient Knowledge -- sabbannutanana. LXXIII. Unobstructed Knowledge -- anavarananana. ====== Anyone wants to discuss any of those? With metta, Alex #102737 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:08 pm Subject: brief summary of insight knowledges in Patis truth_aerator Hello all interested, Here is interesting overview of stages of knowledge in Ptsm. "Knowledge is in the sense of that being known and understanding is in the sense of understanding that." (1) Knowledge of what is heard. One hears and learns about the Teaching and 201 things. (2)Knowledge of virtuous conduct. One begins to practice by cultivating virtue. (3)Knowledge of concentration. Perhaps Jhana is attained. (4)Knowledge regarding relation of states. The beginning of insight: all phenomena are seen to arise and cease due to the arising and cessation of conditions in accordance with dependent origination. Discerning of conditions and is done by generalizing the conditions and conditionally arisen elements by past conditions, for present effects, present conditions for future results (5)Knowledge of mastery of 3 time groups. All phenomena, grouped as past, future, and present, are seen as impermanent, painful, and non-self, and as arising and ceasing due to conditions. (6)Knowledge of rise and fall (udayabbaya~na.na). One contemplates the arising and passing away of all phenomena, in particular the five aggregates. (7)Knowledge of insight (vipassana~na.na). After contemplating phenomena as impermanent, etc., one now contemplates, in particular, the dissolution of the insight consciousness itself that has them as object. Consequently one feels revulsion for them. (8) Knowledge of danger (adiinava-~na.na). Seeing their dissolution, one contemplates the arising of all formed things as fearful and dangerous, and their non-arising as safety and peace. (9)Knowledge of indifference to formations (sankharupekkha~na.na). Seeing all formations as fearful produces desire for deliverance from them, which impels one to review them fully in the light of the knowledge so far acquired. Owing to this, one achieves composure at the prospect of abandoning them. (10) Change-of-lineage (maturity) knowledge (gotrabhuu~na.na). In achieving composure, one has reached the point from which there is no retreat; and immediately upon that follows change-of-lineage knowledge, which abandons and emerges from the formations externally, and whereby the first partial glimpse of Nibbana is obtained. (11) Path knowledge (magga~na.na). This follows immediately next, and consciousness makes Nibbana its object. Path knowledge abandons and emerges from the formations both externally and internally. Right view and the other seven path factors emerge from wrong view, etc. 37 Factors of awakening are being developed. This is immediately followed by fruition. (12)Fruition knowledge (phala-~na.na). The effort of emergence is now ceased. With metta, Alex #102739 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] happy thanksgiving egberdina Hi connie, 2009/11/27 connie > dear victims panel, > I am just remembering the excitement in my friend's voice this morning, > telling me about how when she'd been grabbed by the shirt and punched in the > face recently, not the least anger, but "the neatest feeling ever" arose I'm sorry, but that sounds a bit masochistic to me. & she'd apologized to her friend, saying she was sorry that one had felt > that need & wished her well. > Did she deserve it? Would I deny her that? I'm happy for her that it > happened. > I hope this is not a new kind of brahma vihara, joy at being assaulted? Cheers Herman #102740 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] happy thanksgiving truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi connie, > > 2009/11/27 connie > > > dear victims panel, > > I am just remembering the excitement in my friend's voice this morning, > > telling me about how when she'd been grabbed by the shirt and punched in the > > face recently, not the least anger, but "the neatest feeling ever" arose > > > I'm sorry, but that sounds a bit masochistic to me. > > & she'd apologized to her friend, saying she was sorry that one had felt > > that need & wished her well. > > Did she deserve it? Would I deny her that? I'm happy for her that it > > happened. > > > > I hope this is not a new kind of brahma vihara, joy at being assaulted? > > Cheers > > Herman "Joy at being assaulted" should be understood as: A) No anger when someone punches you. b) Joy that some part of kammavipaka has ripened and is no more. There is a story of anagami women whose son was killed before her eyes. She had no anger nor sadness. WOW! A worthy level to strive for, and then achieve Arhatship. We deserve what we deserve. And some of us deserve lots of happiness as well. With metta, Alex #102741 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] happy thanksgiving egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/27 truth_aerator > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > > "Joy at being assaulted" should be understood as: > > A) No anger when someone punches you. > b) Joy that some part of kammavipaka has ripened and is no more. > > What about the new ugly kamma that has been welcomed? > There is a story of anagami women whose son was killed before her eyes. She > had no anger nor sadness. WOW! A worthy level to strive for, and then > achieve Arhatship. > > We deserve what we deserve. Yes, we as a group. If we as a group tolerate violence, then we as a group will live in a violent world. > And some of us deserve lots of happiness as well. > > None of us live in isolation from the rest of us. All of us deserve happiness, Alex, all of us. Cheers Herman #102742 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2009/11/26 truth_aerator truth_aerator@... > > > Hi Howard, all > > > > I suspect that the fact that one was hurt is at least partially due to ones > > bad kamma. So as harsh as it sounds, they deserve it. > > > This view is commonly known in the West as "blaming the victim". Societies > where this view is prevalent are demonstrably void of any ideals of social > justice. > ----- Hi Herman, Alex and Howard, Do you believe the Buddha-dhamma blames the victim? Or, to put it another way; does the Dhamma say the victim is, A. to blame, B. not to blame, C. both to blame and not to blame, or, D. neither to blame nor not to blame? Ken H #102743 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] happy thanksgiving truth_aerator Hi Herman, all, Alex: > > "Joy at being assaulted" should be understood as: > > > > A) No anger when someone punches you. > > b) Joy that some part of kammavipaka has ripened and is no more. > > > > > What about the new ugly kamma that has been welcomed? Ugly kamma is violence and anger. It is wrong. Violence is not stopped by violence. > > > > There is a story of anagami women whose son was killed before her eyes. She > > had no anger nor sadness. WOW! A worthy level to strive for, and then > > achieve Arhatship. > > > > We deserve what we deserve. > > > Yes, we as a group. If we as a group tolerate violence, then we as >a group will live in a violent world. Stop violence with peace. The world is a testament to what happens when we try to extinguish a fire by throwing more fuel into it. > > > And some of us deserve lots of happiness as well. > > > > > None of us live in isolation from the rest of us. All of us deserve > happiness, Alex, all of us. > > Cheers > > Herman Those who earned the merit for kusala results, deserve kusala results. Those who have done bad deeds in the past, I wish them happiness. However bad kamma will catch up with them. In most cases one can improve one's situation by doing good kamma. With metta, Alex #102746 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > Do you believe the Buddha-dhamma blames the victim? > > Or, to put it another way; does the Dhamma say the victim is, > A. to blame, > B. not to blame, > C. both to blame and not to blame, or, > D. neither to blame nor not to blame? Hi KenH, Herman, all Ultimately there are just mental and physical elements developing according to causes and conditions. Lets cut out the drama of non-existent people being torture, raped, maimed and executed. Anger is a akusala dhamma that conditions future painful results (dukkha kaya/mano vedana). Non-ill will is kusala dhamma that conditions future pleasant results(sukha kaya/mano vedana). The fact that dukha kaya vedana is being experienced now is not only due to contact to be felt as dukha, but Kamma making patisandhi citta be established is a required condition. These namarupic stream is resultant of past avijja and sankhara. And it is to be expected that some avijja caused, not just pleasant volitions and sankharas. What has happened now is result of past kamma. With metta, Alex #102747 From: "colette" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:31 pm Subject: Re: happy thanksgiving ksheri3 HAPPY THANKSGIVING CONNIE, Being a world renowned VICTIM always being attacked, chastised, persecuted, etc., I ponder your thoughts on the subject of accepting pain as a benefit. That's a double edged sword/blade you're dealling with here. For myself, it's a wonderful day that I get to spend with a very old friend, one of the two people that nursed me back to health after I was almost murdered in the mid-late 90s -- although I'd rather not care to ponder PAIN and it's close friends on this day I wanted to extend to you and all our peers here at the DSG, a Happy Thanksgiving -- as a matter of fact I'm working on some ngodro from the Karma Kagyu so it fits nicely. Maybe next wk. I'll get to this painful aspect of existance and can speak further with you of it's existance. toodles, colette Hey, that's my glass of wine, let me finish it before you pour more into it. lol #102748 From: "connie" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:29 pm Subject: happy thanksgiving nichiconn dear panelists, Herman: I hope this is not a new kind of brahma vihara, joy at being assaulted? c: "joy at being assaulted"! - we do tend to look forward to various assaults on our senses in our tra-la-la perverted ways: dukkha being rather all pervasive after all & even pleasant contact being in a sense, patigha. no, i'd call it more folly (lolly la) vihara, Herman. Cheers - to not misplacing hope. Alex: There is a story of anagami women whose son was killed before her eyes. She had no anger nor sadness. c: She called it "not the only marvellous thing that has happened to me"; Nanda's mother, who (Gradual Sayings, Sevens, The Great Sacrifice, $50): sang "The Way to the Beyond". Part of what she sang (Group of Discourses, ch5): 1046. 'They hoped, praised, longed for and sacrificed, Pu.n.naka', said the Blessed One. 'They longed for sensual pleasures, dependent upon gain. I say that they, given over to sacrifice and affected by passion for existence, did not cross over birth and old age.' 1047. 'If those given over to sacrifice', said the venerable Pu.n.naka, 'did not cross over birth and old age because of their sacrifices, sir, then who pray in the world of devas and men has crossed over birth and old age, sir? I ask you, Blessed One. Tell me this.' 1048. 'He for whom, having considered what is far and near in the world, Pu.n.naka', said the Blessed One, 'there are no commotions anywhere in the world, he, I say, calmed, without fumes [of passion], without affliction, without desire, has crossed over birth and old age.' 1050. 'If you have asked me about the coming into existence of misery, Mettaguu, said the Blessed One, 'I shall tell it to you, as one who know. Miseries, which are of many forms in the world, come into existence with acquisitions [which lead to rebirth] as their cause. 1051. Truly, whatever fool, unknowing, makes acquisition[s], he comes to misery again and again. Therefore indeed one who knows should not make acquisition[s], considering the birth and coming into existence of misery.' 1106. 'The abandonment of both desires for sensual pleasures and unhappiness, Udaya', said the Blessed One, 'and the thrusting away of sloth, the restraint of remorse, 1107. purified by indifference and mindfulness, preceded by the examination of mental states, I tell [you], is the release by knowledge, the breaking of ignorance.' peace, connie #102749 From: "connie" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:38 pm Subject: happy thanksgiving nichiconn dear colette, colette: Hey, that's my glass of wine, let me finish it before you pour more into it. lol connie: Then let me just wish us all less intoxication and more sobering realizations and raise my cup to you. peace. #102750 From: "connie" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:22 pm Subject: happy thanksgiving nichiconn dearly beloved, Minor Readings, The Without-the-Walls Discourse 1. Without the walls they stand and wait, And at the junctions and road-forks; Returning to their erstwhile homes, They wait beside the jambs of gates. 2. But when a rich feast is set out With food and drink of every kind, The fact that no man does recall These crreatures stems from their past acts. 3. So they who are compassionate At heart do give for relatives Such drink and food as may be pure And good and fitting at these times: 4. 'Then let this be for relatives; 'May relatives have happiness.' These ghosts of the departed kin Foregathered and assembled there 5. Will eagerly their blessing give For [plentiful] rich food and drink: 'So may our relatives live long, 'Owing to whom we have this gain; 6. 'For honour to us has been done, 'No giver ever lacked the fruit.' Now there is never ploughing there, Nor any cattle-herding found, 7. Nor merchandizing just the same, Nor bartering for coin of gold: The ghosts of the departed kin Live there on giving given here; 8. As water showered on the hill Flows down to reach the vale, So giving given here can serve The ghosts of the departed kin. 9. As river-beds when full can bear The water down to fill the sea, So giving given here can serve The ghosts of the departed kin. 10. 'He gave to me, he worked for me, 'He was my kin, friend, intimate'. Give gifts, then, for departed ones, Recalling what they used to do. 11. No weeping, nor yet sorrowing, Nor any kind of mourning, aids Departed Ones, whose kin remain [Unhelpful to them acting] thus. 12. But when this offering is given Well placed in the Community For them, then it can serve them long In future and at once as well. 13. The True Idea for relatives has thus been shown, And how high honour to departed ones is done, And how the bhikkhus can be given strength as well, And how great merit can be stored away by you. ==== peace, connie #102751 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) kenhowardau Hi Alex, Thanks for responding to my questionnaire. I am giving you full marks. :-) Actually, I found your way of explaining the Abhidhamma a bit confusing. But it was all namas and rupas - not a sentient being in sight - and so, full marks! Ken H #102752 From: han tun Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:27 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (75) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 9.Groups of Ruupas (the last installment of the chapter) Questions and comments are welcome. ---------------------------------- Not all types of ruupa arise in the different planes of existence where living beings are born. Apart from the plane of human beings, there are also other planes of existence. Birth in an unhappy plane or a happy plane is the result of kamma. Birth in the human plane of existence is the result of kusala kamma. During life there are conditions for the occurring of results of kusala kamma and of akusala kamma, namely, the experience of pleasant objects as well as unpleasant objects through the senses. In the human plane the decads of eye, ear, nose, tongue and bodysense that are produced by kamma arise, so that the different sense objects can be experienced. People who see the disadvantages of enslavement to sense impressions and have accumulated the right conditions for the development of a high degree of calm, can attain stages of jhaana. The result of the different stages of jhaana is birth in higher planes of existence where less sense impressions occur or none at all. In some of the higher planes [Note 10] the decads of nose, tongue, bodysense and sex are absent, but the decads of eye and ear, the decad of the heart-base and the nonad of life faculty (life faculty and the eight inseparable ruupas) arise. The ruupas produced by nutrition do not arise. In these planes one does not need food to stay alive. In one of the higher planes of existence there is no naama, only ruupa [Note 11]. Here the decads of eye, ear and the other senses, sex and heart-base are absent. Sound does not arise and neither do ruupas produced by citta arise, since naama does not arise. Kamma produces the nonad of life faculty at the first moment of life and after that also temperature produces ruupas. In some of the higher planes only naama ocurs and thus ruupas do not arise in such planes [Note 12]. [Note 10] The ruupa-brahma planes. Birth in these planes is the result of rúpa-jhaana, fine-material jhaana. [Note 11] The "perceptionless beings plane" (asa~n~naa-satta plane) which is one of the ruupa-brahma planes. Those who are born here have seen the disadvantages of naama. [Note 12] The aruupa-brahma planes. Birth in these planes is the result of aruupa-jhaana, "immaterial jhaana". -------------------- Questions 1. Can kamma produce groups of eight ruupas, pure octads? 2. Which decads produced by kamma arise at the first moment of life in the case of human beings? 3. Can rebirth-consciousness produce ruupa? 4. Can seeing-consciousness produce ruupa? 5. Can citta rooted in attachment produce ruupa? ------------------------------ This is the End of Chapter 9. Groups of Ruupas. Chapter 10. Conclusion, the last chapter of the book will start from the next post. with metta, Han #102753 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/27 truth_aerator > > It is standart teaching of Buddhist fairness. Kamma is fair. > "People deserve what they get" is not, was never and never will be a statement of Buddhist understanding of kamma. > > When someone suffers, it is indirectly due to their past kamma. Yes. But suffering is mental only. When someone is punched in the face, that is not due to their past kamma, it is because someone is punching them in the face. Cheers Herman #102754 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/11/27 kenhowardau I must confess to having read how the papers are being marked :-) I promise you that has not changed the way I am going to answer. > > Hi Herman, Alex and Howard, > > Do you believe the Buddha-dhamma blames the victim? > > I'll give a short and long answer. Short answer: No > Or, to put it another way; does the Dhamma say the victim is, > A. to blame, > B. not to blame, > C. both to blame and not to blame, or, > D. neither to blame nor not to blame? > Long answer: There is much in the Canon that is not Buddha dhamma. There is an animistic layer in the Canon, which reflects the Brahmanic background from which Jainism emerged. This layer is characterised by the entire Indic cosmology of devas and their realms, (devas being the agents responsible for what happens in the world), and the sacrificial practices used to influence the devas. There is a karmic layer in the Canon, which reflects the Jain background from which Buddhism emerged. Jainism is all about self-effort and self-restraint in achieving some kind of enlightened state, which is attained through the cessation of all karma. There is only one layer in the Canon that is Buddha dhamma. The anatta layer. (There's the odd bod here who doesn't realise they are Jain :-)) Cheers Herman #102755 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/27 truth_aerator > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > > > > Hi KenH, Herman, all > > Ultimately there are just mental and physical elements developing according > to causes and conditions. > > Lets cut out the drama of non-existent people being torture, raped, maimed > and executed. > > Anger is a akusala dhamma that conditions future painful results (dukkha > kaya/mano vedana). > > I don't know where you get the idea from that any resistance to harm or being harmed is akusala. > > Non-ill will is kusala dhamma that conditions future pleasant results(sukha > kaya/mano vedana). > > > The fact that dukha kaya vedana is being experienced now is not only due > to contact to be felt as dukha, but Kamma making patisandhi citta be > established is a required condition. > > These namarupic stream is resultant of past avijja and sankhara. And it is > to be expected that some avijja caused, not just pleasant volitions and > sankharas. > > What has happened now is result of past kamma. > > Utter and complete rubbish. :-) I mean the smile, and the statement before it too. Cheers Herman #102756 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Difference between name and form szmicio Dear Nina, > N: Visible object or sound appears all the time. The naamas that > experience these objects are more concealed, they are more subtle. > Though not impossible to know them. They are known through the mind- > door and only when the first stage of insight is reached we know what > a mind-door process is. Now it is concealed, we only know in theory, > we know 'the story' about them. L: This is very true. Just story. I know only story a think that maybe the truth. But that's ignorance. We cannot get out from that. I like this: just story. But there is also sacca ~nana that can develop very very slow, and we cant even know that. > Alex, I have an idea. All these texts of Ptsm are too good to read > quickly. Your posts are too long and then it becomes too much, people > will not read them. Could you go over them again in small parts, so > that we can discuss them? A quarter page at a time, a few lines at a > time? L: Good idea. Maybe smaller parts, would be better. And not too much parts at once also. Like Han do with Nina's ruupas. I am very happy that Alex goes with Ptsm now. It's a good reminder. Best wishes Lukas #102757 From: Lukas Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness szmicio Dear Ken O, >Dhamma discussion is friendly. Lets be respectful. If we make a mistake >in offending others, lets us make good to it. > >Again I sincerely hope we make our dicussion friendly and respectful. L: And what can we do to have more metta? It does not matter, what other says, we can see how speach is out of control. That's fully conditioned. And we cannot control it by will. Of course there is a will and speach depends much on will. But different wills arise and fall away. They are conditioned. will have an active kammic power but it is out of control conditoned. We see have speach is out of control, and no matter what one says, we can develop metta. Develop metta with understanding. This is really good to speak in agreeable way. But look at a girl that is talking to his friends. She get agitated instantly with lobha-mulla-citta and they start to talk on their friendship. Wow girls get so easily agitated. Some people can feel more lobha than dosa. some more dosa. It does not matter. It's all conditioned. I of course agree wiht your excellant reminder. But just wanna say saomething i feel to be very true also. Speach conditioned. Fell metta, not anger what one says. Just metta, the object does not matter, all can be condition to kusala. Each moment can be. >pg 122 and 123 Perfections >"Even wise men may quarrel, but quickly they can become closely united >again" >"If someone knows the wrong by which he offended someone else, and he >expresses in words that he was wrong, both people can live in greater >harmony, their friendship cannot be destroyed." L: True. But some people can reflect this very fast, some later on when they finish to anger. And some cant get it. This is conditioned. We cannot choose. This is the kind of kusala reflection that arises afterwords. In this case, akusala citta is a condition to this kinds of kusla cittas that reflect afterwards. This is all conditioned. We can have more metta when we realise it's conditioned. Buddha reflect in the same way after his enlightenment. He compare this to a flower, one being is a seed, and another a flower. This was refering to our different ablities and accumulations. There is no better beings. Not we, just different conditions. This is a few of my thoughts. I agree fully with you, Ken. Best wishes Lukas #102758 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) kenhowardau Hi Herman, ---------- H: > I must confess to having read how the papers are being marked :-) I promise you that has not changed the way I am going to answer. ---------- I held off for a while to give you a chance to answer. But I shouldn't have worried; nothing I could have said would have influenced you. :-) ----------------- <. . .> KH: > > Do you believe the Buddha-dhamma blames the victim? > H: > I'll give a short and long answer. Short answer: No ------------------ Wrong! The Buddha-dhamma does not blame a victim (so you got that right) but you believe it does. You believe the law of cause and effect - as explained in the Tipitaka - is some kind of Jain teaching that blames the victim. So the correct answer in your case would have been, yes. So no marks there! ----------------------- KH: > ><. . .> does the Dhamma say the victim is, > A. to blame, > B. not to blame, > C. both to blame and not to blame, or, > D. neither to blame nor not to blame? > > H: > Long answer: There is much in the Canon that is not Buddha dhamma. ------------------------- zzzzzzzzzzzz . . . -------------- H: > There is an animistic layer in the Canon, which reflects the Brahmanic background from which Jainism emerged. This layer is characterised by the entire Indic cosmology of devas and their realms, (devas being the agents responsible for what happens in the world), and the sacrificial practices used to influence the devas. There is a karmic layer in the Canon, which reflects the Jain background from which Buddhism emerged. Jainism is all about self-effort and self-restraint in achieving some kind of enlightened state, which is attained through the cessation of all karma. There is only one layer in the Canon that is Buddha dhamma. The anatta layer. (There's the odd bod here who doesn't realise they are Jain :-)) ------------- . . . snort . . oh, yes, fascinating stuff Herman. The trouble is it's not about namas and rupas. And so it's not about anatta. 1 out of 10. (And that's being generous.) Ken H #102759 From: "Mirco Behring" Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:58 pm Subject: Question on Sutta "Accompanied by Metta" (SN 46:54 4.Mettāsahagatasuttaṃ) mirco_behring Dhamma Greetings, recently I stumbled upon the following: In the Mettāsahagatasuttaṃ (Samyutta Nikaya 46:54.4) the culminations of the minds release accompanied by the brahma viharas are described as following: Metta = the shining, bright, beautiful as culmination (subha-paramaham) Karuna = sphere of infinite space as culmination (ākāsānañcāyatana-paramāhaṃ) Mudita = sphere of infinite consciousness as culmination (viññāṇañcāyatana-paramāhaṃ) Upekkha = sphere of nothingness as culmination (ākiñcaññāyatana-paramāhaṃ) Now my question: which jhana is meant with "the beautifull" (subha)? With Metta, Mirco #102760 From: Ramesh Patil Date: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 3. rameshat27 HI Nina, I had talked you about the transalation of your book "Abhidhamma In Daily Life" in to our native language. I had received one hard copy of it. I am from India. RAMESH PATIL On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear friends, > > How can a deed performed in the past produce its result later on? > Kamma, or the volition which accompanies the citta when a good deed > or a bad deed is performed, falls away immediately together with the > citta. However, since each citta which falls away is succeeded by the > next citta, kamma can be accumulated from moment to moment. <...> #102761 From: Lukas Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 3. szmicio >HI Nina, > >I had talked you about the transalation of your book "Abhidhamma In Daily >Life" in to our native language. >I had received one hard copy of it. I am from India. > >RAMESH PATIL There's also two polish chapters from Abhidhamma in daily life. Lukas #102762 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Dear Ramesh, Good to hear from you again, after some time. It is a good idea to translate Abhidhamma In Daily Life". Meanwhile I am revising this book, and almost ready. I will send you off list the revision. Nina. Op 27-nov-2009, om 8:04 heeft Ramesh Patil het volgende geschreven: > I had talked you about the transalation of your book "Abhidhamma In > Daily > Life" in to our native language. > I had received one hard copy of it. I am from India. #102763 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 27-nov-2009, om 10:01 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > There's also two polish chapters from Abhidhamma in daily life. ------ N: That is interesting. I appreciate this, even a few chapters is good. There are a few chapters in French. Nina. #102764 From: Ramesh Patil Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 3. rameshat27 >There's also two polish chapters from Abhidhamma in daily life. which are those? ramesh #102765 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:09 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, The person who has reached the state of perfection has equanimity towards the vicissitudes of life. He is freed from the chain of causal action, there is no more rebirth for him. So long as one is full of attachment, aversion and ignorance, one wants pleasant objects and dislikes unpleasant objects. However, the experience of pleasant objects and unpleasant objects is not in any one’s power, it depends on kamma which produces result. One day there is gain, the next day loss; one day there is praise, the next day blame. Sometimes we are healthy, sometimes we suffer from sickness and pain. The experience of pleasant or unpleasant objects through the senses is not a reward or a punishment. The idea of reward or punishment stems from the conception of a supreme being, a God, who is the judge of man’s deeds. The cause of the experience of pleasant and unpleasant objects through the senses is within ourselves: it is kamma. There is seeing and hearing of pleasant and unpleasant objects time and again. Seeing and hearing are the results of kusala kamma or akusala kamma. These results arise just for a moment and then they fall away. When we define what was seen or heard or think of the nature of the object, the moments of result have fallen away already. It is hard to tell whether seeing or hearing is the result of kusala kamma or of akusala kamma. Thinking of what was seen or heard is not result; when there is thinking there is kusala citta or akusala citta, but mostly akusala citta. In order to understand the ultimate realities of kamma and its result we have to be very precise. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and the experience of tangible object through the bodysense are cittas which are results of kamma. Our reactions in a wholesome or in an unwholesome way to the objects which are experienced are not results of kamma, they are kusala citta or akusala citta. Kusala citta and akusala citta can be called the active side of life, since they can perform good deeds and bad deeds which will cause the appropriate results later on. The cittas which are results of one’s deeds can be called the passive side of life. We have to receive results, whether we like it or not. ******** Nina. #102766 From: Herman Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) egberdina 2009/11/27 kenhowardau > Hi Herman, > . . . snort . . oh, yes, fascinating stuff Herman. The trouble is it's > not about namas and rupas. And so it's not about anatta. > > 1 out of 10. (And that's being generous.) > > Like you, KenH, I believe the notion of progress to be ridiculous, in any meaningful sense. Your wishes re namas and rupas are noted. Cheers Herman #102767 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Mon, 23/11/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: If you think/observe that phassa precedes vedana, you must be saying that some cittas are not accompanied by phassa. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -------- H:> Yes, for the contact has already occurred. Contact is an event, not a quality. it needn't keep on happening. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------ S: I'm not sure what you mean by 'event'? Is it a nama or a rupa? It sounds like more of a conventional meaning of contact than the paramattha dhamma, phassa, which by definition arises with every citta and contacts every object experienced (from phusati, to touch). Anyway, you've discussed this at length with Nina and others, so we can leave it. ... >>S: For these cittas, how is the object contacted? When we read about "the six classes of contact" in so many suttas, such as the Chachakka Sutta, M 148, which kinds of consciousness, do you suggest, can arise without contact? ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- H:> I've explained what I have in mind. An analogy: A person takes the hand of his/her child. That is contact. It is an event that has now occured. As a result, they can then walk together for a good while with no second taking of the child's hand necessary. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---- S: I'd say a better analogy would be that of a politician or monarch shaking long lines of hands. Each time a hand is clasped, no matter the kind of clasp or gentle touch, no matter the different hands in line, there has to be a contacting of the hand each time. Metta Sarah ========= #102768 From: "Mirco Behring" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:59 am Subject: Re: Question on Sutta "Accompanied by Metta" (SN 46:54 4.Mettasahagatasuttam) mirco_behring Hi :-) O.k., again without that mysterious signs: recently I stumbled upon the following: In the Mettasahagatasuttam; (Samyutta Nikaya 46:54.4) the culminations of the minds release accompanied by the brahma viharas are described as following: Metta = the shining, bright, beautiful as culmination (subha (???) ) Karuna = sphere of infinite space as culmination (1st arupa-jhana) Mudita = sphere of infinite consciousness as culmination (2nd arupa-jhana) Upekkha = sphere of nothingness as culmination (3rd arupa-jhana) Now my question: which jhana is meant with "the beautiful" (subha)? With Metta, Mirco #102769 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on Sutta "Accompanied by Metta" (SN 46:54 4.Mettasahagatasuttam) sarahprocter... Hi Mirco, Welcome to DSG! Your question suggests you read the texts very carefully:-) --- On Fri, 27/11/09, Mirco Behring wrote: >recently I stumbled upon the following: >In the Mettasahagatasuttam ; (Samyutta Nikaya 46:54.4) the culminations of the minds release accompanied by the brahma viharas are described as following: Metta = the shining, bright, beautiful as culmination (subha (???) ) Karuna = sphere of infinite space as culmination (1st arupa-jhana) Mudita = sphere of infinite consciousness as culmination (2nd arupa-jhana) Upekkha = sphere of nothingness as culmination (3rd arupa-jhana) Now my question: which jhana is meant with "the beautiful" (subha)? ... S: Yes, subha. This refers to the third of the 8 vimokkhas (liberations). Pls see the following from Nyantiloka's dictionary (hopefully with funny signs removed): http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html (S:especially see the note referring to no 3. at the end, referring to the rupa jhanas) > The 8 liberations (attha vimokkha) occur frequently in the texts (A. VIII, 66; D. 16, etc.) and are described as follows: "There are 8 liberations, o monks. Which are these? (1) ''Whilst remaining in the fine-material sphere (ruupii), one perceives corporeal forms: this is the first liberation. (2) "Not perceiving corporcal forms on one's own person, one perceives corporcal forms externally: this is the 2nd liberation. (3) ''By thinking of the beautiful, one is filled with confidence: this is the 3rd liberation. (4) "Through the total ovcrcoming of the corporeality-perceptions, the vanishing of the reflex-perceptions, and the non-attention to the multiformity-perceptions, with the idea 'Unbounded is space', one reaches the sphere of unbounded space (aakaasaana~ncaayatana) and abides therein: this is the 4th liberation. (5) "Through the total ovcrcoming of the sphere of unbounded space, and with the idea 'Unbounded is consciousness', one reaches the sphere of unbounded consciousness (vi~n~naana~caayatana) and abides therein: this is the 5th liberation. (6) "Through the total overcoming of the sphere of unbounded consciousness, and with the idea 'Nothing is there', one reaches the sphere of nothingness (aaki~nca~n~naayatana) and abides therein: this is the 6th liberation. (7) "Through the total overcoming of the sphere of nothingness, one reaches the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception (n'eva-sa~n~naa-naasa~n~naayatana) and abides therein: this is the 7th liberation . (8) "Through the total overcoming of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, one reaches the extinction of perception and feeling (s. nirodha-samaapatti): this is the 8th liberation. These, o monks, are the 8 kinds of liberation." For (1-3), s. abhibhaayatana; for (4-7), s. jhaana; for (8), s. nirodha-samaapatti. By (3) is meant the attainment of the fine-material absorptions (jhaana, q.v.) by means of concentrating the mind on perfectly pure and bright colours as objects of the kasina (q.v.). According to Pts.M. this mental state is produced also by concentrating the mind on the 4 sublime states, i.e. all-embracing kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity, in consequence of which allbeings appear perfectly pure and glorified, and thus the mind turns to the beautiful. See Pts.M. II, Vimokkha-kathaa; Atthasaalini Tr., p. 255; App.< .... S: For more detail on why mind-deliverence of lovingkindness is said to have beauty as the highest, see Visuddhimagga IX, 119f: " 'Bhikkhus, the mind-deliverence of lovingkindness has the beauty as the highest, I say...... compassion.....gladness.....equanimity......I say' (S v, 119-21)." [S: " 'Subhaparamaaha.m, bhikkave, metta.m cetovimutti.m vadaami.....karuna.m.....mudita.m....."] "But why are they described in this way? Because each is the respective basic support for each. For beings are unrepulsive to one who abides in lovingkindness. Being familiar with the unrepulsive aspect, when he applies his mind to unrepulsive pure colours such as blue-black, his mind enters into them without difficulty. So lovingkindness is the basic support for the liberation by the beautiful (see M ii, 12; MA iii, 256), but not for what is beyond that. That is why it is called 'having beauty as the highest'." *** S:This of course is referring to jhana based on a colour kasina. I don't know if you have B.Bodhi's translation of SN? He also gives a lot of helpful notes with commentary summaries on this part of the sutta. Well, I was just planning to welcome you, but thought I'd better take a look at your qu. at the same time:-) Pls introduce yourself a little sometime if you feel inclined...Where do you live, for example? Metta Sarah ====== #102770 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:18 am Subject: appamatto(diligent) vs aataapii(ardent) chewsadhu Dear Han, Sarah, Nina, Do you know the different between appamatto(diligent) and aataapii(ardent)? With respect, Chew #102771 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mantra sarahprocter... Hi Billy, I'd also like to welcome you to DSG and ask you to write a little about yourself, if you feel like it, telling us where you live, how you became interested in the Teachings, perhaps. --- On Wed, 25/11/09, billybobby717 wrote: >Are mantras important? Where in the Tipataka does the Buddha mention a mantra?I've heard that he tells the former killer(mr.thousand fingered one)that "they have their stones but you have your mantra" but i can't find this anywhere. ... S: I think you got some good answers on this and in particular on Angulimala. How did you find them? I don't think there's any value in reciting mantras as commonly recited. If the mind-states are not concerned with generosity, morality or understanding of one kind or other, then there is bound to be ignorance. ... >Also...What is the "great standard" and where can I read about it in the Tipataka? ... S: I wonder if you might be referring to the section in the Maha Parinibbana Sutta under the "Four References" and commonly quoted, transl. by Vajira & Story: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses (Suttas) and verify them by the Discipline (Vinaya). If they are neither traceable in the Discourses (Suttas) nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those eldeers, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses (Suttas) and verifiable by the Discipline (Vinaya), then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." Metta Sarah ======= #102772 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] appamatto(diligent) vs aataapii(ardent) sarahprocter... Dear Chew & all, Always good to see you around:) --- On Fri, 27/11/09, Sadhu Chew wrote: >Do you know the different between appamatto(diligent) and aataapii(ardent) ? ... S: I understand the first to be referring to sati cetasika in particular, whilst the second to be referring to viriya cetasika in particular. Usually, they are referring to awareness and effort with right understanding, of course. Let me this if I can find some brief textual support.... OK, For example, in the Appamaada Vagga in the Dhammapada, and in the Buddha's last exhortation: 'Transient are all formations. Strive zealously!' (appamaadena sampaadetha: D. 16),the commentaries explain this is referring to "the presence (lit. 'non-absence') of mindfulness (satiyaa avippavaasa)". [See Phil's message #39027 and more in U.P. under "Appamada (Diligence, Heedfulness)"] In the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta (Soma transl.) it says: "Aataapi = 'Ardent'. What burns the defilements of the three planes of becoming is ardour. Ardour is a name for energy [viriya]......In this place only energy [viriya] is referred to by 'aataapa.' By taking the word ardent [aataapii] the Master points out the one possessed of right energy or exertion [sammappadhaana]." Metta Sarah ======== #102773 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] appamatto(diligent) vs aataapii(ardent) chewsadhu Dear Sarah, Thanks and Sadhu. The word 'diligent' made me feel like viriya, because it has the meaning as hard-working, energetic. Then it caused me to mix up with 'ardent'. Thank you for clarifying the definition to me. With respect, Chew #102774 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditionality notes I've made to myself ptaus1 Hi Ken, > K: I am not a scientist. I watch documentary about space and I believe radio waves travel in deep space. To my knowledge, although both sound-waves and radio-waves are conventionally called "waves", they are different natural phenomena. Radio waves are a form of electromagnetic radiation that can indeed travel through space as well as matter, just like the other kinds of electromagnetic radiation (visible light, gamma rays, etc). Sound on the other hand represents tiny fluctuations in the atmospheric pressure that our ears have evolved to register. So, in simple terms, it could be said that ears detect fluctuations in density of the surrounding matter, or medium, like air, water, etc, within a certain range of course. These tiny fluctuations are transmitted from the outer ear-drum to the inner ear by tiny bones in the middle ear (which evolved from jaw bones in fish at the time when they were the only vertebrae on the planet). IN the inner ear, these fluctuations are then transformed into electrical signals, which go to the brain through the auditory nerve. While we are talking about fish, sharks for example have several senses that humans and other mammals don't - for example, they have a dedicated sense organ along their snout that can detect electrical fields of other beings. I'm not sure, but this might be in fact detection of electromagnetic waves. But we humans don't have that sense - we're still reasonably primitive when it comes to evolution of senses. Best wishes, pt #102775 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye door, mind consciousness, feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/27/2009 5:18:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, --- On Mon, 23/11/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: If you think/observe that phassa precedes vedana, you must be saying that some cittas are not accompanied by phassa. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -------- H:> Yes, for the contact has already occurred. Contact is an event, not a quality. it needn't keep on happening. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------ S: I'm not sure what you mean by 'event'? Is it a nama or a rupa? ---------------------------------------------------- Some are namic, some rupic. Contact is the event that is the coming together of three phenomena: sense object, sense door, and sense consciousness, and when the object is a rupa, two of the three are *rupas*. So, you tell me whether contact is nama or rupa. Actually, who cares? It is what I said: The event that is the coming together of three phenomena, sense object, sense door, and sense consciousness. -------------------------------------------------- It sounds like more of a conventional meaning of contact than the paramattha dhamma, phassa, which by definition arises with every citta and contacts every object experienced (from phusati, to touch). -------------------------------------------------- Contact, as defined by the Buddha, is the coming together of three phenomena, as I stated above. ------------------------------------------------ Anyway, you've discussed this at length with Nina and others, so we can leave it. ------------------------------------------------- Sounds good. :-) ------------------------------------------------- ... >>S: For these cittas, how is the object contacted? When we read about "the six classes of contact" in so many suttas, such as the Chachakka Sutta, M 148, which kinds of consciousness, do you suggest, can arise without contact? ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- H:> I've explained what I have in mind. An analogy: A person takes the hand of his/her child. That is contact. It is an event that has now occured. As a result, they can then walk together for a good while with no second taking of the child's hand necessary. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---- S: I'd say a better analogy would be that of a politician or monarch shaking long lines of hands. Each time a hand is clasped, no matter the kind of clasp or gentle touch, no matter the different hands in line, there has to be a contacting of the hand each time. ---------------------------------------------------- Your individual hand claspings each correspond to the one hand clasping in my story. There is an initial contact that occurs conditioning the hands remaining in touch until disengagement occurs. In any case, analogies are only that. ------------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102776 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) hantun1 Dear Chew, Sarah had already given you an excellent explanation. I may add the following. The Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera gives the following meaning. appamaada: [m.] vigilance; earnestness. aatappa: [m.] ardour; exertion. These two words are included in the formula for Arahantship: "eko vuupaka.t.tho appamatto aataapii pahitatto" which was translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi as "Dwelling alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent and resolute". Venerable Payutto gives the following definitions. [Atapi (there is effort). This refers to Samma Vayama (Right Effort), the sixth factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, which entails guarding against and abandoning what is unwholesome and creating and maintaining what is wholesome. Buddhadhamma strongly emphasizes the importance of sati at every level of ethical conduct. Conducting one's life or one's Dhamma practice constantly governed by sati is called 'appamada', or heedfulness. Appamada is of central importance to progress in a system of ethics, and is usually defined as non-separation from sati. This may be expanded on as implying constant care and circumspection, not allowing oneself to stumble into harmful ways; not allowing oneself to miss any opportunity for betterment; a clear awareness of what things need to be done and what left undone; non-negligence; and performing one's daily tasks with sincerity and with unbending effort towards improvement. It may be said that appamada is the Buddhist sense of responsibility.] Han: In summary, in terms of Noble Eightfold Path, aataapii belongs to Samma Vayama, and appamaada belongs to Samma Sati and Samma Sammadhi. [And as Sarah had said: "with right understanding."] Respectfully, Han #102777 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ashkenn2k Dear Alex Herman is also correct, we cannot attribute the punch in the face is due to past kamma. Under AN III, 61, Numberical Discourses by the Buddha, Chapter of the three pg 61 There are monks, some ascetics and brahims who teach and hold this view; "Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neutral feeling, all that is caused by past action" Further down the sutta, Buddha rebuked such a view Like Nina, could I suggest you shorten the Ptsm, this would make discussion easier.  thanks Cheers Ken O #102778 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) chewsadhu Dear Han and Sarah, So, aataapii belongs to Samma Vayama. and appamaada belongs to Samma Sati and Samma Sammadhi. [And as Sarah had said: "with right understanding."], combination of 3 dhammas? With respect, Chew #102779 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] an eternal litany. was: Eye door, mind consciousness ashkenn2k Dear Lukas > >L: And what can we do to have more metta? > >It does not matter, what other says, we can see how speach is out of control. That's fully conditioned. And we cannot control it by will. Of course there is a will and speach depends much on will. But different wills arise and fall away. They are conditioned. will have an active kammic power but it is out of control conditoned. We see have speach is out of control, and no matter what one says, we can develop metta. Develop metta with understanding. > >This is really good to speak in agreeable way. But look at a girl that is talking to his friends. She get agitated instantly with lobha-mulla- citta and they start to talk on their friendship. Wow girls get so easily agitated. Some people can feel more lobha than dosa. some more dosa. It does not matter. It's all conditioned. > >I of course agree wiht your excellant reminder. But just wanna say saomething i feel to be very true also. Speach conditioned. Fell metta, not >anger what one says. Just metta, the object does not matter, all can be condition to kusala. Each moment can be. >L: True. But some people can reflect this very fast, some later on when they finish to anger. And some cant get it. This is conditioned. We cannot choose. This is the kind of kusala reflection that arises afterwords. In this case, akusala citta is a condition to this kinds of kusla cittas that reflect afterwards. KO: Thank you for sharing. IMHO, there are accmulations and inclinations that influenced kusala and akusala roots. Understanding contionality and anatta is the most important. But we must not be mindful not to veer too much over towards conditionality, it may become deterministic as it would be the same principle of what we experience now is due to past kamma. Just like the near enemy of equanmity is indifference under the Divine Abidings. That is why I caution over too liberal usage of control and free will, it may lead to such a view. Just my own thoughts. Cheers Ken O #102780 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ashkenn2k Dear Howard I like share the importance of truthfulness : Perfections, pg 136 "Without truthfulness, virtual etc is impossible, and there can be no practise in accordance to one's vow. All evil states converge upon the trangression of truth. One who is not devoted to truth is unreliable and his word cannot be accepted in the future. One the other hand, one devoted to truth secures the foundation of all noble qualitities. With truthfulness as foundation, he is capable of purifying and fulfilling all the requisities of enlightenment. Not deceived about the true nature of phenoma, he performs the functions of all the requisties of enlightment and completes the practise of the bodhisattva path." Cheers Ken O >I would lie to save someone from being murdered. I would kill a bear >to save a human from being mauled by it or kill a snake to save a human >being from being bitten by it. If any of these would send me to hell, so be it! > #102781 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal instructions in VsM ashkenn2k Dear Alex and Nina Perfections pg 81 Commnentary to Anumanasutta (M1, 15) "The teachers of the old sai that monk should scrutinize himself three times daily. Thus, in the morning he should consider to what extent he still has defilements. If he see that he still has defilements, he should strive to get rid of them. If he sees that he still has no defilements he knows that he has been leading the monk's life in the right way. During the day time and also in the evening he should examine himself again. If he cannot do this three times a day, he should do it twice day, and if he cannot do that, he should examine himself only once a day. But it is improper not ot examine oneself at all." cheers Ken O > >> "What is 'development as repetition'? Here a practitioner practices >> repetition in the morning, repetition at noon, repetition in the >> evening, repetition before eating, repetition after eating, >> repetition in the first watch, repetition in the middle watch, >> repetition in the last watch, repetition by night, repetition by >> day, repetition by night and day, repetition in the dark half of >> the moon, repetition in the bright half of the moon, repetition in >> the rainy season, repetition in the cool season, repetition in the >> hot season, repetition in the first phase of life, repetition in >> the middle phase of life, repetition in the last phase of life. >> This is development as repetition. " Ptsm #102782 From: "colette" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:02 am Subject: the morning after? ksheri3 Good Morning Connie, I'm reaching that point, see LAW OF DEMINISHING RETURNS, on my "life's" "STANDARD NORMAL CURVE" where no matter what chemicals I enter into my body they just don't do what they once did for me, which is why I question the value to even bother with mocking or poking fun at your choice of words: "intoxication". I will say, HOWEVER (you know there's always that caveat of mine lurking about and it usually involves raising it's head so that it can poke fun at something, at someone, if not at my self specifically, I will raise my glass and drink, salute, remember, etc,etc,etc, my peers and friends BUT FIRST, PLEASE, pull my finger. toodles, colette #102783 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 3. ashkenn2k Dear Nina and Lukas Is there any translation in Chinese as some of my friends are more comfortable in Chinese Cheers Ken O >> There's also two polish chapters from Abhidhamma in daily life. >------ >N: That is interesting. I appreciate this, even a few chapters is >good. There are a few chapters in French. >Nina. > #102784 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/27/2009 9:49:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard I like share the importance of truthfulness : Perfections, pg 136 "Without truthfulness, virtual etc is impossible, and there can be no practise in accordance to one's vow. All evil states converge upon the trangression of truth. One who is not devoted to truth is unreliable and his word cannot be accepted in the future. One the other hand, one devoted to truth secures the foundation of all noble qualitities. With truthfulness as foundation, he is capable of purifying and fulfilling all the requisities of enlightenment. Not deceived about the true nature of phenoma, he performs the functions of all the requisties of enlightment and completes the practise of the bodhisattva path." Cheers Ken O > >Hi, Alex - > >In a message dated 11/25/2009 2:42:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >truth_aerator@ yahoo.ca writes: > >(my comment) Even if someone's life is on the line, do not break even the >tiniest precept. >============ ========= ===== >I would lie to save someone from being murdered. I would kill a bear >to save a human from being mauled by it or kill a snake to save a human >being from being bitten by it. If any of these would send me to hell, so be it! > >With metta, >Howard > =================================== That's nice, Ken. However, were a deranged murderer searching for you with the intent to kill you, and if he asked me where you were, and if I knew where you were, I would calmly lie and say that I had no idea. And I believe I would be far more likely to go to hell were I instead to say, "Oh, sure! He's right over there!" But even if I thought that lying would send me to hell, I'd still lie in that case, and I would do so with the strong belief that I was doing the RIGHT thing! True believers without common sense or a mind of their own, are, IMO, dangerous and to be avoided. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102785 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) upasaka_howard Hi again, Ken - I think of the "Righteous gentiles" who saved Jews and other intended victims of the Nazis from torture and murder by hiding them and lying about it. They were heroes, and not immoral people destined for hell. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102786 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) hantun1 Dear Chew, Chew: So, aataapii belongs to Samma Vayama.and appamaada belongs to Samma Sati and Samma Sammadhi. [And as Sarah had said: "with right understanding."], combination of 3 dhammas? Han: Yes, Chew. The moment you say "appamaada", all the skillful dhammas are there. The Buddha said: "To the extent that there are animals footless, two-footed, four-footed, many footed; with form or formless; percipient, non-percipient, or neither percipient nor non-percipient the Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, is reckoned the foremost among them. In the same way, all skillful qualities are rooted in heedfulness, converge in heedfulness, and heedfulness is reckoned the foremost among them". AN 10.15 Appamada Sutta: Heedfulness http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.015.than.html with respect, Han #102787 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) truth_aerator Hi Herman, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2009/11/27 truth_aerator > > > Hi Herman, > > > > > > > > Hi Howard, all > > > > > > > > I suspect that the fact that one was hurt is at least partially due to > > ones > > > > bad kamma. So as harsh as it sounds, they deserve it. > > > > > > > > > This view is commonly known in the West as "blaming the victim". > > Societies > > > where this view is prevalent are demonstrably void of any ideals of > > social > > > justice. > > > > > > > > > It is standart teaching of Buddhist fairness. Kamma is fair. > > > > "People deserve what they get" is not, was never and never will be a > statement of Buddhist understanding of kamma. There is kamma, and kammavipaka. Due to past ignorance, and the processes of becoming, there was rebirth consciousness descending into a womb (DN15). When there is a body, it is to be expected that contacts of various kinds can occur (sticks, fists, knives, bullets, etc) > > > > > When someone suffers, it is indirectly due to their past kamma. > > > Yes. But suffering is mental only. Suffering and bare physical pain as well. dukkha kaya vedana. > When someone is punched in the face, that is not due to their past >kamma, it is because someone is punching them in the face. > > Cheers > > Herman This is to be expected when there is a sentient body and rebirth of namas and rupas into human world. With metta, Alex #102788 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > Herman is also correct, we cannot attribute the punch in the face is due to past kamma. Under AN III, 61, Numberical Discourses by the Buddha, Chapter of the three pg 61 > There are monks, some ascetics and brahims who teach and hold this view; "Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neutral feeling, all that is caused by past action" Further down the sutta, Buddha rebuked such a view > > Like Nina, could I suggest you shorten the Ptsm, this would make discussion easier.  thanks > > Cheers > Ken O > All effects kamma that is felt is felt through contact. So while punch to the face itself could be not kammavipaka. The punch to the face is a certain flow of physical events that is made possible in the first place by the kammavipaka that made rebirth in the human plane. If there was no kamma being done that leads to kamaloka realms then there would not be possibility of being punched in the face. Remember the Ven Angulimala and Ven. MahaMoggalana story? The brutal beatings they got, were ripening of past kamma. Ven. MahaMoggallana who magic powers were considerable couldn't stop the Kamma vipaka from happening. No Gods can do it either. With metta, Alex #102789 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ashkenn2k Dear Howard A story of the past life of Buddha Minor Anthologies III, Perfection of Truth Basket of Conduct, III, 12 Conduct of Sutasoma <<1. And again, when I was Sutasoma, lord of the earth, captured by a man-eater I remembered my promised to a brahman 2. Having strung up a hundred warrior-noble by the palms of their hands, having let them dry out, he brought me for sacrifice. 3. The man-eater asked me, "Is it that you wish your release? I will act according to your pleasure if you will come to see me again" 4. Having assured him of my return at dawn, approaching the delightful city, I renounced the kingdom then. 5. Recollecting the Dhamma of the good followed by former Conquerors, giving the wealth to the brahman, I approached the man-eater. 6. I had no doubt whether he will kill me or not. Protecting truth-speaking I approached to sacrifice my life. There was no one equal to me in truth - that was my prefection of Truth.>> Perfections, pg 140 in the commentary of the "Harita Jataka" (no 431) <> Cheers Ken O #102790 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ashkenn2k Dear Alex Ven Angulimala and Ven Maha Moggalana we understand because of past wrongs they have done and have to experience to the ripening of the results. Getting a punch from someone may not because the person being punch has done a past action that resulted in this. It could be the result of the assailant that cause the hurt. Your reasoning on being birth in the sensual realms one might have the possibility being punch, is like what I have quoted from sutta "One experiences is based on past actions." It is like saying that the action that Devadatta (sorry if I get the name wrong) done that cause Buddha to bleed, is because of past actions done by Buddha and Buddha has to experience the bleed. This would mean Devadatta since birth would have condemned in his very life to be born in hell in the next life. Kamma vipaka is a resultant. It does not mean purely base on past actions, it could be the result of a present action that cause us to feel pain be it done by oneself or others. During the present action by onsefl or others, kamma vipaka at that time is refering to the condition of the bodily citta that experience the pain. Cheers Ken O >All effects kamma that is felt is felt through contact. >So while punch to the face itself could be not kammavipaka. The punch to the face is a certain flow of physical events that is made possible in the first place by the kammavipaka that made rebirth in the human plane. If there was no kamma being done that leads to kamaloka realms then there would not be possibility of being punched in the face. > >Remember the Ven Angulimala and Ven. MahaMoggalana story? The brutal beatings they got, were ripening of past kamma. Ven. MahaMoggallana who magic powers were considerable couldn't stop the Kamma vipaka from happening. No Gods can do it either. > #102791 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Alex) - In a message dated 11/27/2009 11:32:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Kamma vipaka is a resultant. It does not mean purely base on past actions, it could be the result of a present action that cause us to feel pain be it done by oneself or others. During the present action by onsefl or others, kamma vipaka at that time is refering to the condition of the bodily citta that experience the pain. ============================ So, if there hadn't been the past kamma, the present punch to face wouldn't hurt? That doesn't seem plausible to me. However, what might be the case is that the hurt would only be physical without suffering from it. I do consider it possible that negative kamma vipaka is a matter of suffering (the 2nd dart).What do you guys (and anyone else) think? With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102792 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > Ven Angulimala and Ven Maha Moggalana we understand because of past wrongs they have done and have to experience to the ripening of the results. > > Getting a punch from someone may not because the person being punch has done a past action that resulted in this. It could be the result of the assailant that cause the hurt. Your reasoning on being birth in the sensual realms one might have the possibility being punch, is like what I have quoted from sutta "One experiences is based on past actions." > > It is like saying that the action that Devadatta (sorry if I get the name wrong) done that cause Buddha to bleed, is because of past actions done by Buddha and Buddha has to experience the bleed. This would mean Devadatta since birth would have condemned in his very life to be born in hell in the next life. > > Kamma vipaka is a resultant. It does not mean purely base on past actions, it could be the result of a present action that cause us to feel pain be it done by oneself or others. During the present action by onsefl or others, kamma vipaka at that time is refering to the condition of the bodily citta that experience the pain. > > > Cheers > Ken O > > Hello KenO, Nina, Sarah all, I'd like to simplify the question: Is all contact to be felt as "kaya-dukkha-vedana" caused by akusalavipaka? Are there any exceptions? Even if there are exceptions, the fact that kaya is present is a kammic result. Also those who have developed metta ""Monks, for one whose awareness-release through good will is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well-undertaken, eleven benefits can be expected. Which eleven? "One sleeps easily, wakes easily, dreams no evil dreams. One is dear to human beings, dear to non-human beings. The devas protect one. Neither fire, poison, nor weapons can touch one. One's mind gains concentration quickly. One's complexion is bright. One dies unconfused and — if penetrating no higher — is headed for the Brahma worlds." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.016.than.html Note: "One is dear to human beings, dear to non-human beings. The devas protect one. Neither fire, poison, nor weapons can touch one." So lack of kusala (in this case metta) can be a supportive condition for the arising of contact to be felt as kaya-dukkha-vedana. With metta, Alex #102793 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) truth_aerator Hello Howard, KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Alex) - > ============================ > So, if there hadn't been the past kamma, the present punch to face > wouldn't hurt? That doesn't seem plausible to me. If there was no patisandhi citta (a vipakacitta) into human (or kama loka) realm, there would not be any possibility of "being punched in the face". The patisandhi citta is a kammic resultant. So indirectly, through multiple layers, kamma still plays a role. With metta, Alex #102794 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 11/27/2009 12:12:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Alex) - > ============================ > So, if there hadn't been the past kamma, the present punch to face > wouldn't hurt? That doesn't seem plausible to me. If there was no patisandhi citta (a vipakacitta) into human (or kama loka) realm, there would not be any possibility of "being punched in the face". ------------------------------------------------- IMO, that won't wash. Everyone in this realm is in this realm! Most don't get punched in the face. Moreover, this is a *favorable* realm. ------------------------------------------------ The patisandhi citta is a kammic resultant. So indirectly, through multiple layers, kamma still plays a role. --------------------------------------------------- It plays a role, but we don't know exactly what it is, and it often is relatively minor. Most to the point, we cannot reasonably make specific presumptions about it. -------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102795 From: "connie" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:56 am Subject: On Virtue (Ptsm) nichiconn Dear Howard, All, Howard: So, if there hadn't been the past kamma, the present punch to face wouldn't hurt? c: Thanks for reminding me & apologies for the oversight: "It didn't even hurt", my friend said. Reminds me of the hot kitchen oil story. peace, connie #102796 From: "connie" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:21 am Subject: the morning after? nichiconn dear colette, colette: PLEASE, pull my finger. connie: We're both past our prime & still intoxicated with #1. Keep rolling with the punches, girlfriend. best wishes, connie #102797 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 27-nov-2009, om 16:14 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Is there any translation in Chinese as some of my friends are more > comfortable in Chinese ------ N: I was so surprised to learn that years ago it was translated into Taiwanese, but I have no contact. Perhaps James can help? Nina. #102798 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: 73 nanas nilovg Dear Alex, Op 26-nov-2009, om 20:49 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Anyone wants to discuss any of those? ------ N: Just one at a time may be a good idea. Nina. #102799 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:10 pm Subject: mind element conditionality truth_aerator Dear Nina and all, >VsM XV, 36 >The adverting mind element is a condition, as the five conditions, >namely, proximity, contiguity, absence, disappearance, and proximity- > decisive-support, for these five [beginning with the >eye-consciousness element]. The adverting mind (manodhatu) is proximity, contiguity, absence, disappearance, and proximity-decisive-support for (eye-,ear-,nose-, tongue-, body-consciousness elements) Correct? > And these five are so too for the receiving mind element. These five: (eye-,ear-,nose-, tongue-, body-consciousness elements)? Are proximity, contiguity, absence, disappearance, and proximity-decisive-support for receiving mind element. Correct? >And so is the receiving mind element for the investigating >mind-consciousness element. And so is that too for the > determining mind-consciousness element. And so is the determining > mind-consciousness element for impulsion mind-consciousness element. Receiving mind element is proximity, contiguity, absence, disappearance, and proximity-decisive-support for investigating mind consciousness element. Receiving mind element is proximity, contiguity, absence, disappearance, and proximity-decisive-support for determining mind consciousness element. Determining mind consciousness element is proximity, contiguity, absence, disappearance, and proximity-decisive-support for impulsion mind consciousness element. > But the impulsion mind-consciousness element is a condition, as the >six conditions, namely, as the five already stated and as repetition >condition, for the immediately following impulsion > mind-consciousness element. Impulsion mind-consciousness element is proximity, contiguity, absence, disappearance, proximity-decisive-support, and repetition for the immediately following impulsion mind-consciousness element. > > 37. In the case of the mind door, however, the life-continuum >mind-consciousness element is a condition, as the previously-stated >five conditions, for the adverting mind-consciousness element. >And the adverting mind-consciousness element is so for the impulsion >mind-consciousness element. For mind door: Life-continuum (Bhavanga) mind-consciousness element is: proximity, contiguity, absence, disappearance, and proximity-decisive-support conditions for adverting mind-consciousness element. Adverting mind-consciousness element is: proximity, contiguity, absence, disappearance, and proximity-decisive-support conditions for impulsion mind-consciousness element. Did I understand correctly? With metta, Alex