#102800 From: "connie" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:41 pm Subject: Perfections & ADL recordings nichiconn Dear Friends, If you haven't yet, please take the time to download the audio recordings of the Perfections and/or ADL from the dhammastudygroup.org archive site as they will likely be removed before the first of the year. Thanks again to all concerned. connie #102801 From: A T Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:18 pm Subject: Ptsm: Tr.-1 Ch.-1 on Knowledge, learning. truth_aerator Hello all, Ptsm: Treatise 1 on Knowledge. Chapter 1 – learning. 1. How is it that wisdom of applying the ear is knowledge of what consists in the learned? Kathaṃ sotÄ?vadhÄ?ne paññÄ? sutamaye ñÄ?ṇaṃ? The ear is applied thus: These dhamma are to be directly known (abhiññeyyÄ?). Understanding as the act of understanding that is knowledge of what consists in the learned. ‘‘Ime dhammÄ? abhiññeyyÄ?’’ti sotÄ?vadhÄ?naṃ, taṃpajÄ?nanÄ? paññÄ? sutamaye ñÄ?ṇaṃ. Then it says that these dhamma are to be Directly known (abhiññeyyÄ?), Fully understood (pariññeyyÄ?), to be Abandoned (pahÄ?tabbÄ?), to be developed (bhÄ?vetabbÄ?), to be realized (sacchikÄ?tabbÄ?) Questions: How exactly are these dhammÄ?: a) To be Directly known (abhiññeyyÄ?), b) To be Fully understood (pariññeyyÄ?), c) to be Abandoned (pahÄ?tabbÄ?), d) to be developed (bhÄ?vetabbÄ?), e) to be realized (sacchikÄ?tabbÄ?) With metta, Alex #102802 From: "Mirco Behring" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:22 pm Subject: Re: Question on Sutta "Accompanied by Metta" (SN 46:54 4.Mettasahagatasuttam) mirco_behring Dhamma Greetings Sarah, so, putting this together, it seems as if that metta as the object of meditation leads until the 3rd rupa jhana. I am wondering about this, because once I heard, that metta leads until 4th rupa jhana but because there are neither-pleasant-nor-painfull-feelings anymore one does not feel metta anymore but it somehow still can be radiated. Smiles&Cheerfulness, Mirco P.S.: To answer your inquiring question ;-) : I am a 33yo german male who lives in Germany. I would call myself a part time meditator, who is interested in Buddha dhamma since 15 years, more or less. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: #102769 #102803 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:16 am Subject: Apology to KenO Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - When I wrote "True believers without common sense or a mind of their own, are, IMO, dangerous and to be avoided," I wrote "truly" but most unkindly and thoughtlessly. I sincerely regret not taking the time and making the effort to say what I wanted to say far more gently than I did. What I wrote to you in the way that I wrote it was wrong speech. I hope I didn't cause you hurt, and I sincerely apologize. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102804 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:24 pm Subject: Arupa stages = dhamma dhatu? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, Where are base of infinite space, base of infinite consciousness, base of nothingness and base of neither perception nor non perception would be classified? In which element (dhatu) and which sphere (ayatana)? dhammadhatu and dhammayatana? With metta, Alex #102805 From: "colette" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ksheri3 Hi Alex, > This is to be expected when there is a sentient body and rebirth of namas and rupas into human world. > > if this is to be "expected" then can't we give substance to the concept of a "bija"? colette #102806 From: "colette" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ksheri3 Good Morning Howard, What, THEN, is a lie, is a falsehood? Lying about Jews to Nazis? Is it not true that the Nazis were telling fibs, lies, falsehoods, about the Jews, WHICH CAUSED the necessity to tell lies? Where did the conception of a LIE, of a FALSEHOOD, begin? Isn't that the ULTIMATE TRUTH required to ascertain the foundation upon which a conception is manifested, constructed? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi again, Ken - > > I think of the "Righteous gentiles" who saved Jews and other intended > victims of the Nazis from torture and murder by hiding them and lying about > it. They were heroes, and not immoral people destined for hell. <...> #102807 From: "colette" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:52 pm Subject: Re: the morning after? ksheri3 dear connie, rolling with the punches sounds a bit too fatalistic. At this very second I'm listening to "THE CAPTAIN" by Kasey Chambers, and I'm thinking of how good vegetables are for being human and so I'm meditating on the equality that a human body can hallucinate it has with a vegetable. If I have to "roll" then I'd rather try to surf since I turned down auditioning for the part of Jack's significant other, Jill, way back in the 80s. Now if you think in context of surfing then we can also apply the concept: hanging ten, riding the white water or is it riding the water? Glad to have you aboard or that I'm glad to be aboard. ;) toodles #102808 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:42 pm Subject: Gentle Cosmic Goodness! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Buddha on Goodness: Train yourself in doing only pure good, Since that lasts & brings great happiness! Cultivate generosity, peaceful simple living, and a mentality of infinite friendliness... _/\_ Itivuttaka 16 Who is hospitable, open, straight & friendly, Generous, gentle and always unselfish, A guide, an instructor, a true leader, Such one may great honour gain... Digha Nikaya 31 For one who deliberately and fully attentive, Develops and expands Universal Friendliness Experiencing the fading away of clinging, All his chains are worn down thereby! Itivuttaka 27 With good-will for the entire cosmos, Cultivate a limitless heart and mind: Beaming above, below, and all around, Unobstructed, without trace of hostility. Sutta Nipata I, 8 May all creatures, all breathing & living things, All beings, one and all, without any exception, Experience the good fortune of Happiness! May they not fall into any harm... Anguttara Nikaya II, 72 <...> Have a nice, kind and gentle day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #102809 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 11/27/2009 6:41:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ksheri3@... writes: Good Morning Howard, What, THEN, is a lie, is a falsehood? Lying about Jews to Nazis? Is it not true that the Nazis were telling fibs, lies, falsehoods, about the Jews, WHICH CAUSED the necessity to tell lies? Where did the conception of a LIE, of a FALSEHOOD, begin? Isn't that the ULTIMATE TRUTH required to ascertain the foundation upon which a conception is manifested, constructed? toodles, colette ================================ Missing your point. Sorry. :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102810 From: "connie" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:13 pm Subject: the morning after? nichiconn dear colette, you: Glad to have you aboard or that I'm glad to be aboard. ;) me: ROLL ON COLUMBIA! The WA state anthem & yes! some boarders do ride the river's tanker waves, so bottom's up ;) I'm a poor swimmer. Funny you should mention veggies. Group of Discourses: 1034. 'Streams flow everywhere', said the venerable Ajita. 'What is the restraint for streams? Tell me the constraint for streams. By what are streams dammed?' 1035. 'Whatever streams there are in the world, Ajita', said the Blessed One, 'their restraint is mindfulness. I will tell you the constraint for streams. They are dammed by wisdom.' Then, another time, Saariputta is talking about Ajita's Questions and says: << He sees by right insight continual becoming from a certain sustenance, and seeing that in this way as it really is, he practises revulsion from continual becoming from a sustenance, and that it may fade away and cease. From the ceasing of a certain sustenance that which has come to be is liable to cease - so he sees by right insight as it really is. And seeing that in this way, he practises revulsion from that which is liable to cease, and that it may fade away and cease. Of such, lord, is the man who is being trained. >> KS II, 4.Kalaara $31 (1) Become. [ = SNii47] peace, connie #102811 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) chewsadhu Dear Han and Sarah, ---- evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosaran.aa. Appamaado tesa.m [tesa.m dhammaana.m (sii. ka.) sa.m. ni. 5.139] aggamakkhaayati. In the same way, all skillful qualities are rooted in heedfulness, converge in heedfulness, and heedfulness is reckoned the foremost among them. ---- All skillful qualities are rooted in heedfulness(appamaada). What are the "all skillful qualities"? If heedfulness is sati, then all skillful qualities are the other cetasika which associated with kusalacitta kiriyacitta maggacitta phalacitta. Then it is said that sati is the foremost among them. Where else can we find, ekaggata and amoha cetasika are heedfulness too? With respect, Chew #102812 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:42 pm Subject: Re: Perfections & ADL recordings ptaus1 Hi connie, Is there a way to download that entire site? When I click "Save page as" in Firefox, it only downloads the front html page, but not the files in it. Thanks Best wishes pt > Dear Friends, > If you haven't yet, please take the time to download the audio recordings of the Perfections and/or ADL from the dhammastudygroup.org archive site as they will likely be removed before the first of the year. #102813 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:57 pm Subject: suraamerayamajjapamaadat.t.haanaa chewsadhu Dear Han, Sarah, Nina, May I know how to split "suraamerayamajjapamaadat.t.haanaa" as "fermented & distilled drinks that lead to heedlessness"? Sadhu!Sadhu!Sadhu! May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #102814 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ptaus1 Hi Howard, > H: That's nice, Ken. However, were a deranged murderer searching for you > with the intent to kill you, and if he asked me where you were, and if I > knew where you were, I would calmly lie and say that I had no idea. And I > believe I would be far more likely to go to hell were I instead to say, "Oh, > sure! He's right over there!" But even if I thought that lying would send me > to hell, I'd still lie in that case, and I would do so with the strong > belief that I was doing the RIGHT thing! pt: I was thinking about what you said above - it seems there are more than just one way to tell the truth. Yes, it can be said "he's right over there!", but an even more truthful way would be to address the murderer's anger and perhaps engage him directly on that issue, as that is the actual problem in the situation, not where the other guy is hiding. Or, if that is too hard and might cause him to turn his rage on you, then you might go abhidhamma on him and say "what?! I don't understand such conventional questions, there are only momentary namas and rupas! No such things as people and places! You're seriously deluded!" :) Don't know though if that would make him even more angry or he might just leave you alone thinking you're crazy. Either way, no lying or anger towards the aggressor was required :) Best wishes pt #102815 From: "connie" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:14 pm Subject: Re: Perfections & ADL recordings nichiconn hi pt, i'm afraid it's a matter of right-click / save as for each file you want unless you have a program like HTTrack that would download the whole site... or, write me off-list. peace, connie #102816 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) hantun1 Dear Chew and Sarah, evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa appamaado tesa.m aggamakkhaayati. Chew What are the "all skillful qualities"? Han: I would prefer to use original Pali words. "Kusalaa dhammas" are all kusala cittas accompanied by their cetasikas. -------------------- Chew: If heedfulness is sati, then all skillful qualities are the other cetasika which associated with kusalacitta kiriyacitta maggacitta phalacitta. Then it is said that sati is the foremost among them. Where else can we find, ekaggata and amoha cetasika are heedfulness too? Han: The Buddha said, all "kusalaa dhammas" are "appamaadamuulakaa" and "appamaadasamosara.naa". Therefore, my understanding is that appamaada is not just ekaggata cetasika or just amoha cetasika, or just the two of them. According to the Buddha's words ["appamaadamuulakaa" and "appamaadasamosara.naa"], appamaada is very wide and it comprises all cetasikas that arise together with all kusala cittas, although *all* of kusala cittas and *all* their cetasikas may not arise simultaneously at any given moment. Sarah may have different understanding. Respectfully, Han #102817 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:31 pm Subject: Re: happy thanksgiving ptaus1 Hi connie and all, I was wondering, so how does one give food and drink in accordance with the sutta below? By giving it to the monks (I assume that's what's meant by the word "Community" in 12)? And what do you do when there are no monks around on the day you want to give food? Or maybe you just leave the food on graves and that sort of thing? And on what do the petas actually feed on? Is it the actual food, or more like the merit that's generated through generosity and kindness associated with giving food? Thanks. Best wishes pt > Minor Readings, > The Without-the-Walls Discourse > > 1. Without the walls they stand and wait, > And at the junctions and road-forks; > Returning to their erstwhile homes, > They wait beside the jambs of gates. > 2. But when a rich feast is set out > With food and drink of every kind, > The fact that no man does recall > These crreatures stems from their past acts. > 3. So they who are compassionate > At heart do give for relatives > Such drink and food as may be pure > And good and fitting at these times: > 4. 'Then let this be for relatives; > 'May relatives have happiness.' > These ghosts of the departed kin > Foregathered and assembled there > 5. Will eagerly their blessing give > For [plentiful] rich food and drink: > 'So may our relatives live long, > 'Owing to whom we have this gain; > 6. 'For honour to us has been done, > 'No giver ever lacked the fruit.' > Now there is never ploughing there, > Nor any cattle-herding found, > 7. Nor merchandizing just the same, > Nor bartering for coin of gold: > The ghosts of the departed kin > Live there on giving given here; > 8. As water showered on the hill > Flows down to reach the vale, > So giving given here can serve > The ghosts of the departed kin. > 9. As river-beds when full can bear > The water down to fill the sea, > So giving given here can serve > The ghosts of the departed kin. > 10. 'He gave to me, he worked for me, > 'He was my kin, friend, intimate'. > Give gifts, then, for departed ones, > Recalling what they used to do. > 11. No weeping, nor yet sorrowing, > Nor any kind of mourning, aids > Departed Ones, whose kin remain > [Unhelpful to them acting] thus. > 12. But when this offering is given > Well placed in the Community > For them, then it can serve them long > In future and at once as well. > 13. The True Idea for relatives has thus been shown, > And how high honour to departed ones is done, > And how the bhikkhus can be given strength as well, > And how great merit can be stored away by you. > > ==== #102818 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:35 pm Subject: Re: Perfections & ADL recordings ptaus1 Thanks connie, I'll get the sofware tracker, might be useful for downloading other sites like mettanet tipitaka etc. Best wishes pt > i'm afraid it's a matter of right-click / save as for each file you want unless you have a program like HTTrack that would download the whole site... or, write me off-list. > peace, > connie > #102819 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:58 pm Subject: Re: Ptsm: 73 nanas ptaus1 Hi Alex and all > A: Patisabhidamagga of Sutta pitaka lists these knowledges: > > I. Understanding of applying the ear is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt) -- suttamayanana. > ... > Anyone wants to discuss any of those? pt: I agree with others that it might be useful to go slowly a few lines at a time. On topic, might be interesting to compare how the Ptsm list of knowledges differs from the one in Visuddhimagga - it seems there's some difference in the first few steps. Also the last few knowledges in Ptsm seem a bit different from what's listed in the suttas as unshared powers. Though it might be just a different kind of classification of the same thing. Have to research this a bit before saying anything further. Also I join in thanks for providing the recent Ptsm passages. Considering that Han will soon finish with his serial posts from Nina's book on rupas, perhaps we could start a new project of going through the entire Ptsm a few lines at a time. I'll be glad to supply the English, maybe you Alex can supply the Pali for the Ptsm and it's commentary, and maybe someone like Scott or other knowledgeable Pali people could also translate those commentary lines because it seems there's no Ptsm commentary in English yet(?)? Of course, I realize this project might take a few years to finish, but it seems it might be useful? Best wishes pt #102820 From: Herman Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) egberdina Hi Howard, 2009/11/28 > Hi, Ken (and Alex) - > > In a message dated 11/27/2009 11:32:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > ashkenn2k@... writes: > > Kamma vipaka is a resultant. It does not mean purely base on past > actions, it could be the result of a present action that cause us to feel > pain be > it done by oneself or others. During the present action by onsefl or > others, kamma vipaka at that time is refering to the condition of the > bodily > citta that experience the pain. > ============================ > So, if there hadn't been the past kamma, the present punch to face > wouldn't hurt? That doesn't seem plausible to me. However, what might be > the > case is that the hurt would only be physical without suffering from it. I > do > consider it possible that negative kamma vipaka is a matter of suffering > (the 2nd dart).What do you guys (and anyone else) think? > > I agree with you. If I do a certain thing with the intention of harming someone (causing them suffering), then when something similar is done to me I will feel what I had earlier intended for others. And the same would go for if I was intending to please someone etc This action - result occurs totally in the realm of the mind only (the domain of the 2nd dart). I think it says pretty much the same in MN136: 'After doing an intentional kamma by way of body, speech and mind (whose result is) to be felt as pleasure, he feels pleasure; after doing an intentional kamma by way of body, speech and mind (whose result is) to be felt as pain, he feels pain; after doing an intentional kamma by way of body, speech and mind (whose result is) to be felt as neither-pain-nor-pleasure, he feels neither-pain-nor-pleasure' Cheers Herman #102821 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:15 pm Subject: [dsg] suraamerayamajjapamaadat.t.haanaa hantun1 Dear Chew (Sarah, Nina), suraamerayamajjapamaada.t.thaanaa = suraameraya + majja + pamaada + .t.thaanaa suraameraya: [nt.] rum and spirits, alcoholic drinks. majja: [nt.] an intoxicant pamaada: carelessness, negligence, indolence, remissness, heedlessness. .t.thaana has many meanings. Here, it means the condition or the reason for. The intoxicating drink that is the reason for negligence and heedlessness. -------------------- In one Burmese book, suraa + meraya + majja + pamaada + .t.thaana = becoming courageous + intoxicating drink + becoming conceited and boisterous + forgetting kusala dhammas + reason for. Sarah and Nina may have better ideas. Respectfully, Han #102822 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) upasaka_howard Hi, pt - In a message dated 11/27/2009 10:00:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ptaus1@... writes: Hi Howard, > H: That's nice, Ken. However, were a deranged murderer searching for you > with the intent to kill you, and if he asked me where you were, and if I > knew where you were, I would calmly lie and say that I had no idea. And I > believe I would be far more likely to go to hell were I instead to say, "Oh, > sure! He's right over there!" But even if I thought that lying would send me > to hell, I'd still lie in that case, and I would do so with the strong > belief that I was doing the RIGHT thing! pt: I was thinking about what you said above - it seems there are more than just one way to tell the truth. Yes, it can be said "he's right over there!", but an even more truthful way would be to address the murderer's anger and perhaps engage him directly on that issue, as that is the actual problem in the situation, not where the other guy is hiding. Or, if that is too hard and might cause him to turn his rage on you, then you might go abhidhamma on him and say "what?! I don't understand such conventional questions, there are only momentary namas and rupas! No such things as people and places! You're seriously deluded!" :) Don't know though if that would make him even more angry or he might just leave you alone thinking you're crazy. ---------------------------------------------- Even crazier than the crazed killer? ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- Either way, no lying or anger towards the aggressor was required :) -------------------------------------------- I agree with you about the anger, but not at all about the lying. We're talking about a deranged murderer looking for someone to kill, and the idea is that this isn't a story but an actual event! The thing to do, for sure, is lie! (Either "I haven't seen him" or, even better, a reply that sends him off in the entirely wrong direction.) -------------------------------------------- Best wishes =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102823 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Ken & Alex) - In a message dated 11/27/2009 10:59:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: I think it says pretty much the same in MN136: 'After doing an intentional kamma by way of body, speech and mind (whose result is) to be felt as pleasure, he feels pleasure; after doing an intentional kamma by way of body, speech and mind (whose result is) to be felt as pain, he feels pain; after doing an intentional kamma by way of body, speech and mind (whose result is) to be felt as neither-pain-nor-pleasure, he feels neither-pain-nor-pleasure' =================================== Thanks for that good quote, Herman! :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102824 From: "connie" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:44 pm Subject: Without the Walls nichiconn dear pt and all, re #102817 yes, the sharing of merit... may i give you the long answer by way of The Illustrator? CHAPTER VII THE WITHOUT-THE-WALLS DISCOURSE - (Tiroku.d.dasutta"m) 1. The turn has come for a comment on the Without-the-walls Discourse [placed next to the Jewel Discourse in the Minor Readings], which begins thus 'Without the walls they stand and wait'. We shall comment on its meaning after stating the purpose of its inclusion here. 2. Herein, although it was not in this order that this Without-the-walls Discourse was uttered by the Blessed One, still the purpose of its inclusion here [next to the Jewel Discourse] can be understood as follows. Either it was uttered for the purpose of showing that although someone neglectful in the practice of profitable actions of the various kinds [stated] in the preceding [discourse] may be reborn in a place [somewhat] better than the actual hells and animal womb, yet he may still be reborn among such ghosts as these, and consequently no one should be negligent therein; or else it was uttered for the purpose of showing that some of the beings by whom Vesaalii was plagued, for the allaying of which plagues the Jewel Discourse was uttered, were of such kinds as this. Now With this discourse [we need to ask] By whom 'twas told, where, when, and why. The comment is by him done well That can all in due order tell. So, as the Commentator, I Shall in that way perform the task. end extract: Illustrator VII 1-2. PTS. to be continued? peace, connie #102825 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) chewsadhu Dear Han, All skillful qualities(kusalaa dhammaa) are rooted in heedfulness(appamaadamuulakaa), converge in heedfulness(appamaadasamosaran.aa). Are the kiriyacitta maggacitta phalacitta included in the kusalaa dhammaa too? If appamaada is All, then the last sentence will be "All is the foremost among All". It sounds weird to me. With respect, Chew #102826 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] suraamerayamajjapamaadat.t.haanaa chewsadhu Dear Han, Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! With respect, Chew #102827 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) hantun1 Dear Chew,  I can only say what is in the sutta. The sutta says kusala dhammas are rooted in heedfulness (appamaadamuulakaa), converge in heedfulness (appamaadasamosara.naa). There are three: kusala, akusala, and abyaakataa. The sutta does not say about akusala dhammas and abyaakataa dhammas. Kiriyacittas are abyaakataa dhamma. Magga and Phala are kusala dhammas and so they would probably be included.  It all depends on how you understand kusala dhammas.  Respectfully, Han --- On Sat, 11/28/09, Sadhu Chew wrote: #102825 #102828 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) chewsadhu Dear Han, Sadhu!Sadhu!Sadhu! With respect, Chew #102829 From: "connie" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:02 pm Subject: Re: suraamerayamajjapamaadat.t.haanaa nichiconn Dear Chew, Han and all, Han:-> In one Burmese book, > > suraa + meraya + majja + pamaada + .t.thaana = > > becoming courageous + intoxicating drink + becoming conceited and boisterous + forgetting kusala dhammas + reason for. > > Sarah and Nina may have better ideas. > beautiful, thanks. Please enjoy what The Illustrator has to say: ch2 The Ten Training Precepts - dsasikkhaapada"m: 15. Any opportunity for negligence due to liquor, wine and besotting drink: here as to 'liquor', there are five kinds of liquor: flour liquor, cake liquor, rice liquor, that containing yeast, and that mixed with condiments. Also 'wine' is of five kinds: flower wine, fruit wine, sugar wine, honey wine, and that mixed with condiments (Vin iv 110). Both these are 'besotting' (majja) in the sense of causing intoxication (madaniiya); or alternatively, whatever else there is that causes intoxication, by drinking which one becomes mad (matta) and negligent (pamatta) is called 'besotting'. The 'opportunity for negligence' (pamaada.t.thaana) is the choice by which one drinks, swallows. That is so called since it is the cause for the [subsequent] vanity (madness) and negligence (mada-ppamaada); consequently, what should be understood as the 'opportunity for negligence' is the choice in swallowing the liquor, wine or besotting drink, as intent to swallow, which occurs in the body door (see Ch. v, §153 below). Illustrator ch5 153. From besotting drink refraining (majjapaanaa ca sa"myamo): this designates abstention from any opportunity for negligence (intoxication) due to wine, liquor, and besotting drink, which has already been described (Ch. ii, 15). This refraining from besotting drink is called a good omen because one who drinks besotting drinks does not know either a meaning or an idea; he ill-treats his mother and his father and Enlightened Ones and Hermit Enlightened Ones and Perfect Ones' disciples; here and now he encounters censure, in his next rebirth, an unhappy destination, and in the life after that, madness; but when a man refrains from besotting drink, he achieves both immunity from those defects and excellence in those special qualities that are their opposites. So that, it should be understood, is why it is called a good omen. peace, connie #102830 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:17 pm Subject: Re: suraamerayamajjapamaadat.t.haanaa chewsadhu Dear Connie, Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! With respect, Chew #102831 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ashkenn2k Dear Alex You are right to say that birth in the sense sphere raise the likelihood of being hurt. However, that in my personal opinion, this is too generalistics and determining. What I wish to clarify is that, it could be a present kamma by another person that cause the punch and not necessary it is the ripening of our kamma. The bodily citta that experiences the pain in the punch is a resultant kamma as bodily citta is conditioned by kamma. Cheers Ken O > >If there was no patisandhi citta (a vipakacitta) into human (or kama loka) realm, there would not be any possibility of "being punched in the face". > >The patisandhi citta is a kammic resultant. So indirectly, through multiple layers, kamma still plays a role. > #102832 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:47 pm Subject: Re: Apology to KenO Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ashkenn2k Dear Howard Its ok. I am not hurt or angry. We are all still human :-). One day, you or anyone here could be my preceptor, my teacher and my guide, teaching me in the noble path. With metta Ken O > >Hi, Ken - > >When I wrote "True believers without common sense or a mind of their >own, are, IMO, dangerous and to be avoided," I wrote "truly" but most >unkindly and thoughtlessly. I sincerely regret not taking the time and making the >effort to say what I wanted to say far more gently than I did. What I >wrote to you in the way that I wrote it was wrong speech. I hope I didn't cause >you hurt, and I sincerely apologize. > #102833 From: "connie" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:46 pm Subject: Re: appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) nichiconn Dear Han, Chew and all, Also from the Illustrator, chapter on Precepts: 154. Diligence (appamaado) in profitable ideals (dhammesu) should be understood as the habit of never being without mindfulness of profitable ideas, which, as to meaning, is the converse of the negligence stated as follows: 'There is carelessness, inattentiveness, heedlnessness, hanging back, unzealouness, uninterestedness, non-repetition, non-maintenance-in-being, non-development, non-resolution, non-application, negligence, concerning the maintenance of profitable ideas in being: any such negligence, neglecting, neglectedness, is caled negligence' (Vbh 350). This [diligence] is called a good omen since it is a cause for achieving the various kinds of what is profitable and since it is a cause for reaching the Deathless. [144] And the Master's message to be recalled here is that in such passages as follows 'When [a bhikkhu abides] diligent, ardent [and self-controlled,] his ...' (M i 350) and 'The way of deathlessness is diligence' (Dh 21). peace, connie #102834 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:13 pm Subject: Different cittas. How they work. Feel free to comment. szmicio Dear friends Different cittas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC61ZA4uWbs enjoy Regards Lukas #102835 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 3. szmicio Dear Ramesh, Long long ago I translated 2 first chapters from Abhidhamma in daily life. It was my Dhamma dana to Polish people. It's nice you translate it to your own language. It's Dhamma dana. Regards Lukas > >There's also two polish chapters from Abhidhamma in daily life. > which are those? > ramesh #102836 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) hantun1 Dear Connie (Chew),  Thank you very much for your kind explanation. BTW what is the Illustrator in Pali? Is it available on line?  Respectfully, Han #102837 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) nichiconn Dear Han, The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning (Paramatthajotikaa) translation is not online as far as I know. It is the Commentary on the Minor Readings (Khuddakapaa.tha of Khuddakanikaaya). The venerable ~Naa.namoli's translation of both books is MINOR READINGS AND ILLUSTRATOR, published by the Pali Text Society. In the Translator's Introduction to the Illustrator, he says the texts he used includes "the Sinhalese-script edition of the Saaratthasamuccaya, which reproduces the greater part of it verbatim". best wishes, connie #102838 From: han tun Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) hantun1 Dear Connie (Chew), Thank you very much once again. Khuddakapaa.tha is a very short one. It contains only 9 items. 1: Sara.nagamana.m (Sara.natthaya in Burmese book) 2: Dasasikkhaapada.m 3: Dvatti.msaakaara.m 4: Kumaarapa~nhaa 5: Ma"ngalasutta.m 6: Ratanasutta.m 7: Tiroku.t.tasutta.m 8: Nidhika.n.dasutta.m 9: Mettasutta.m It is amazing how the Commentary can provide so much useful information in the Illustrator based on a small treatise. In your explanation, you also quoted Dhammapad Verse 21. Yes, in that Verse, the Commentary gives the explanation of the first line of the Verse "appamaado amata.m pada.m" as follows. Respectfully, Han #102839 From: Herman Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different cittas. How they work. Feel free to comment. egberdina Hi Lukas, 2009/11/28 Lukas > Dear friends > Different cittas: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC61ZA4uWbs > enjoy > Absolutely fascinating. Thank you for posting the link. This is not cittas, however. It is form. Cheers Herman #102840 From: Lukas Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different cittas. How they work. Feel free to comment. szmicio Hi Herman, >Absolutely fascinating. Thank you for posting the link. This is not >cittas,however. It is form. L: I think this is form driven by citta. There is always nama and ruupa. nama depends on ruupa, and ruupa depends on citta. I can quote firtst chapter of Khun Nina's Abhidhamma In daily life: ------------------ Best wishes Lukas #102841 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:01 am Subject: Re: Without the Walls ptaus1 Dear connie, Thanks for the reply. > c: yes, the sharing of merit... may i give you the long answer by way of The Illustrator? > ... > end extract: Illustrator VII 1-2. PTS. > > > to be continued? Sure, when you have the time, would be great to hear more. Thanks. Best wishes pt #102842 From: Herman Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] happy thanksgiving egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/11/27 truth_aerator > Hi Herman, all, > > > > > > What about the new ugly kamma that has been welcomed? > > Ugly kamma is violence and anger. It is wrong. Violence is not stopped by > violence. > > Straw man, Alex. Who has suggested to stop violence with violence? But what I hear from you is that one ought to acquiesce to violence. But in my books, if you allow another to commit harm, without resistance, you are complicit in that harm. <....> > Those who earned the merit for kusala results, deserve kusala results. > > Let's sacrifice some goats :-) > Those who have done bad deeds in the past, I wish them happiness. However > bad kamma will catch up with them. That, in itself, is of little consequence. (AN3:99) ** "Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says, 'When a person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the opportunity for the right ending of stress. "There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment." Just for the record, are you Jain or Buddhist ? :-) Cheers Herman #102843 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ptaus1 Hi Howard, > H: Even crazier than the crazed killer? ;-)) pt: Yeah :) I've noticed that talking about abhidhamma out of the blue can be perceived by others as a bit insane, if they are not familiar with it to begin with :) > H: I agree with you about the anger, but not at all about the lying. > We're talking about a deranged murderer looking for someone to kill, and the > idea is that this isn't a story but an actual event! The thing to do, for > sure, is lie! (Either "I haven't seen him" or, even better, a reply that sends > him off in the entirely wrong direction.) pt: I agree that it's easy to talk about this as a story, and there's no way of knowing what would happen in a real situation. But, I liked Sarah's stories about when someone tried to rob her, the way she explained to the robber how stealing is not good for him, rather than trying to fight or hand over the money. I mean, before that I always thought there are only two options in such situations - fight or yield (lie or betray in our example), but it turns out there's a third option when you try to teach a bit of dhamma to your assailant, which seems the best one. Though of course no way of knowing what I'd do in a real situation... Best wishes pt #102844 From: Herman Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] happy thanksgiving egberdina Hi connie, 2009/11/27 connie > dearly beloved, > > Minor Readings, > The Without-the-Walls Discourse > > 1. Without the walls they stand and wait, > And at the junctions and road-forks; > Returning to their erstwhile homes, > They wait beside the jambs of gates. > 2. But when a rich feast is set out > With food and drink of every kind, > The fact that no man does recall > These crreatures stems from their past acts. > 3. So they who are compassionate > At heart do give for relatives > Such drink and food as may be pure > And good and fitting at these times: > 4. 'Then let this be for relatives; > 'May relatives have happiness.' > These ghosts of the departed kin > Foregathered and assembled there > 5. Will eagerly their blessing give > For [plentiful] rich food and drink: > 'So may our relatives live long, > 'Owing to whom we have this gain; > 6. 'For honour to us has been done, > 'No giver ever lacked the fruit.' > Now there is never ploughing there, > Nor any cattle-herding found, > 7. Nor merchandizing just the same, > Nor bartering for coin of gold: > The ghosts of the departed kin > Live there on giving given here; > 8. As water showered on the hill > Flows down to reach the vale, > So giving given here can serve > The ghosts of the departed kin. > 9. As river-beds when full can bear > The water down to fill the sea, > So giving given here can serve > The ghosts of the departed kin. > 10. 'He gave to me, he worked for me, > 'He was my kin, friend, intimate'. > Give gifts, then, for departed ones, > Recalling what they used to do. > 11. No weeping, nor yet sorrowing, > Nor any kind of mourning, aids > Departed Ones, whose kin remain > [Unhelpful to them acting] thus. > 12. But when this offering is given > Well placed in the Community > For them, then it can serve them long > In future and at once as well. > 13. The True Idea for relatives has thus been shown, > And how high honour to departed ones is done, > And how the bhikkhus can be given strength as well, > And how great merit can be stored away by you. > What, to you, is conducive to understanding the reality of the only moment there is, in what you quoted above? Cheers Herman #102845 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 3. ptaus1 Dear Nina and all, Is there a translation of ADL or any other book of yours in Russian? I have some friends whose Russian is much better than English. Also, can anyone translate your books? I mean in regard of copyright and other legal issues? I learned Russian recently, maybe I can translate some excerpts for them if there's nothing translated already. Best wishes pt #102846 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:59 pm Subject: Re: Apology to KenO Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/28/2009 1:47:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard Its ok. I am not hurt or angry. We are all still human :-). One day, you or anyone here could be my preceptor, my teacher and my guide, teaching me in the noble path. With metta Ken O ================================== Thank you, Ken! You are being very generous, and I appreciate it very much! :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102847 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) chewsadhu Dear Han & Connie, Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: #102838 #102848 From: Herman Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa stages = dhamma dhatu? egberdina Hello Alex, 2009/11/28 truth_aerator > Dear Nina, all, > > > Where are base of infinite space, base of infinite consciousness, base of > nothingness and base of neither perception nor non perception would be > classified? > > In which element (dhatu) and which sphere (ayatana)? > dhammadhatu and dhammayatana? > These are very good questions. Cheers Herman #102849 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind element conditionality nilovg Dear Alex, Op 27-nov-2009, om 21:10 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > >VsM XV, 36 > >The adverting mind element is a condition, as the five conditions, > >namely, proximity, contiguity, absence, disappearance, and proximity- > > decisive-support, for these five [beginning with the >eye- > consciousness element]. > > The adverting mind (manodhatu) is proximity, contiguity, absence, > disappearance, and proximity-decisive-support for (eye-,ear-,nose-, > tongue-, body-consciousness elements) > > Correct? ------- N: Yes, all correct. These five pertain to the condition for each citta to be succeeded by the following one, without interval, anantara. Each of these just gives a specific aspect. It is really amazing this specific order of cittas, niyama, that nobody can alter. It helps us to understand the anattaness. -------- > (snipped). > A: > But the impulsion mind-consciousness element is a condition, > as the >six conditions, namely, as the five already stated and as > repetition >condition, for the immediately following impulsion > > mind-consciousness element. > > Impulsion mind-consciousness element is proximity, contiguity, > absence, disappearance, proximity-decisive-support, and repetition > for the immediately following impulsion mind-consciousness element. > ------- N: Right, here we have in addition repetition-condition, asevana paccaya. They are of the same type, although different in strength. At the moments of javana kusala and akusala is being accumulated (in the case of non-arahats). > > You have them all correct. ------- > > A: For mind door: > Life-continuum (Bhavanga) mind-consciousness element is: proximity, > contiguity, absence, disappearance, and proximity-decisive-support > conditions for adverting mind-consciousness element. ------ N: Yes and the last bhavangupaccheda before the mind-door adverting- consciousness, is the mind-door itself. > > -------- Nina. #102850 From: Ken O Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known ashkenn2k Dear Herman >I think that one of the reasons why the topic is confusing, is because two >different things are being mixed together as though they are the same, when >they really are not. > >Take the above "I burnt my fingers". That is one thing, it is an experience, >a certain kind of sensation felt in a certain location. > >However "it is bodily citta that experiences the burning of the internal >fire element", is quite another thing. That is an explanation, not an >experience. It is thinking about experience. > >So, we have experience, and explanation. > >You may well be right that the explanations for burning fingers and burning >villages would be similar. But the experiences are totally different. As >experience, a burnt up village has no sensation of pain, but my burnt >fingers do. So what we have is this thing called heat, which is being used >as an explanation, and also as an experience. Where we go wrong is in saying >that the explanation is an experience. It isn't. Feeling a burning sensation >is not the same as seeing a house on fire. KO: Your line of reasoning in my opinion is base entirely on one's experience or as you mention there is no unexperienced rupas like sound. What I am saying is that there is external rupa exist independently from our range of experience. When our sense citta comes into contact with the rupa, these external rupa becomes internal objects of the citta. As what you said, experience or what Howard said nama-rupa, these are internals. >But the experiences are entirely different. The burnt village is seen, and >the burnt finger is felt. In both cases, the fire element may be an >explanation, but that is all. KO: The characteristics of the external rupa is the same characteristics of the internal rupa. The characteristics of buring are the same whether one experience it or not. The houses could not be burnt without heat likewise we cannot burnt a finger without heat. Seeing the burning is a different rupa altogether as it is different sense citta. A eye citta cannot have the same domain of the other sense citta, Cheers Ken O #102851 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Dear pt, Op 28-nov-2009, om 12:39 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Is there a translation of ADL or any other book of yours in > Russian? I have some friends whose Russian is much better than > English. > > Also, can anyone translate your books? I mean in regard of > copyright and other legal issues? I learned Russian recently, maybe > I can translate some excerpts for them if there's nothing > translated already. --------- N: Anyone is welcome, no problem. I appreciate it. In Russian, no, and anumodana if you translate excerpts, whatever you like. Nina. #102852 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ptsm: 73 nanas nilovg Dear pt, Op 28-nov-2009, om 4:58 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > maybe someone like Scott or other knowledgeable Pali people could > also translate those commentary lines because it seems there's no > Ptsm commentary in English yet(?)? ------ N: Two enormous volumes in Thai, I would not be able to undertake this. The co. is very, very long. Nina. #102853 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Tr.-1 Ch.-1 on Knowledge, learning. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 27-nov-2009, om 22:18 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > Then it says that these dhamma are to be Directly known > (abhiññeyyÄ?), Fully understood (pariññeyyÄ?), to be Abandoned > (pahÄ?tabbÄ?), to be developed (bhÄ?vetabbÄ?), to be realized > (sacchikÄ?tabbÄ?) > > Questions: How exactly are these dhammÄ?: > a) To be Directly known (abhiññeyyÄ?), > b) To be Fully understood (pariññeyyÄ?), > c) to be Abandoned (pahÄ?tabbÄ?), > d) to be developed (bhÄ?vetabbÄ?), > e) to be realized (sacchikÄ?tabbÄ?) ------- N: I associate this with the three rounds and twelve modes as given in the Dhammacakka- ppavatana sutta: dukkha has to be fully understood the origin of dukkha has to be abandoned, the path has to be developed the cessation of dukkha, nibbaana, has to be realized. As to a): The ear is applied thus: These dhamma are to be directly known (abhiññeyyÄ?). Understanding as the act of understanding that is knowledge of what consists in the learned. I do not have the co. but I think that this refers to the fact that all that is said is no theory, it refers to the development of understanding of the present reality. Take the term pariyatti: people may think that this just refers to the texts, but that is not so. It refers to the reality appearing now. Dukkha now: seeing now is impermanent and thus dukkha, but the arising and falling away of nama and rupa can only be realized when there is clear, precise understanding of nama and rupa appearing at this moment. Their characteristics are different. ------- Nina. #102854 From: Ken O Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Offending Clause In The Translation Re-- It Is Parittam, Not Mantra ashkenn2k Dear Han > >Another argument that could be raised is does it not amount to treating patients, which the monks are not supposed to do? The Commentary says that "na hi saccakiriyaa vejjakamma.m hoti", meaning "asseveration of truth is not medical treatment". KO: There are a few stories in Minor Anthologies III on asseveration of truth. Under Basket of Conduct 1st story when Buddha was a newly hatch quail still unable to fly, there was a fire that came close to burning him and his parents. His parents flew away. <<6. I strove with feet, with wings. I have no bodily strength. As I could not go, there I thought thus then: 7. Those whom I , alarmed, terrified, trembling, should run, have gone leaving me behind. How should I act today? 8. In the world is the quality of morality, there is truth, purity, mercy. By thus truth I will make a supreme asserveration of truth: 9. Reflecting on the power of Dhamma, remembering former Conquerors, relying on the power of truth, I made an asserveration of truth: 10. Wings there that fly not, feet that are that walk not. Mother and Father gone away. Jataveda recede 11. With the truth asseverated by me, the great burning fire drew back sixteen karisas (and was) like a fire that has reached water. There was no one to equal me in truth - this was my perfection of Truth.>> When he was the Fish King, and the lake dried up. Crows, vultures and herons were devouring the fish who are in relations to him. << 5. Having recollected the true dhamma, considering the highest good, I made an asseveration of truth that would be lasting, eternal in the world 6. As long as I remember about myself, ever since I have come to (years of) discretion I am not aware of having hurt intentionally even one living thing. By this utterance of truth may Pajjuna pour rain down 7. Thunder, Pajjuna! Destroy the treasure trove of crows, besiege the crows with grief, set free the fishes from grief 8. And immediately after the glorious (asserveration of) truth was made, Pajjunna thundered out; an in a moment he poured down rain filling uplands and lowlands.>> Another where he made an asserveration of truth and save a youth to recover from a poison inflicted a by snake Cheers Ken O #102855 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > You are right to say that birth in the sense sphere raise the likelihood of being hurt. However, that in my personal opinion, this is too generalistics and determining. What I wish to clarify is that, it could be a present kamma by another person that cause the punch and not necessary it is the ripening of our kamma. The bodily citta that experiences the pain in the punch is a resultant kamma as bodily citta is conditioned by kamma. > > > Cheers > Ken O > > Hello KenO, You've said "The bodily citta that experiences the pain in the punch is a resultant kamma as bodily citta is conditioned by kamma. " So, the kaya-dukkha-vedana is result of kamma? Thus basically we are on the same position. The pain that is experienced is result of kamma done by means of phassa to be felt as painful. With metta, Alex #102856 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa stages = dhamma dhatu? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 28-nov-2009, om 0:24 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Where are base of infinite space, base of infinite consciousness, > base of nothingness and base of neither perception nor non > perception would be classified? > > In which element (dhatu) and which sphere (ayatana)? > dhammadhatu and dhammayatana? ------- N: We have to be careful here. No 2 and 4 are cittas (mano- vi~n~naa.nadhaatu and manaayatana), and 1 and 3 are 'not so classifiable', navattaaramma.na. Sarah wrote some posts about this. But I have no time to google it up. See under navattaaramma.na to check this. Nina. #102857 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:11 am Subject: Virtue & pre-emptive strike truth_aerator Hi Herman, Howard, all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2009/11/27 truth_aerator > > > Hi Herman, all, > > > > > > > > > What about the new ugly kamma that has been welcomed? > > > > Ugly kamma is violence and anger. It is wrong. Violence is not stopped by > > violence. > > > > > Straw man, Alex. Who has suggested to stop violence with violence? But what > I hear from you is that one ought to acquiesce to violence. But in my books, > if you allow another to commit harm, without resistance, you are complicit > in that harm. The preemptive strikes *is* aggression. This is sort of logic that some have convinced the Nation to go and attack some defenseless and poor country. One doesn't even have full control over one's own actions, so how do you expect to control others? You can't satisfy everyone, you can't make all people happy. First try to become Arahant yourself. Then your decisions will be fully wise. > > > Those who earned the merit for kusala results, deserve kusala results. > > > > > Let's sacrifice some goats :-) I haven't said or implied that. Violence, anger, hurting other beings is wrong. > > > > Those who have done bad deeds in the past, I wish them happiness. However > > bad kamma will catch up with them. > > > That, in itself, is of little consequence. > > (AN3:99) > ** "Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that > is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no > opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says, 'When a > person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result > is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the > opportunity for the right ending of stress. > > "There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual > takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling > deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for > the most part barely appears for a moment." > Just for the record, are you Jain or Buddhist ? :-) > > Cheers > > Herman The above quote simply says that it is possible to attenuate kamma, and that kammic results may differ in strength due to other conditioning factors. Kamma and kamma results are not linear. When one becomes Arahant, all the kamma that is left will have to play out in this one life. Past Kamma will STILL produce some attenuated results for an Arahant, but rather than suffering for aeons in Hell, one could experience insignificant (in comparison to Hellish) pain. With metta, Alex #102858 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa stages = dhamma dhatu? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 28-nov-2009, om 0:24 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > Where are base of infinite space, base of infinite consciousness, > > base of nothingness and base of neither perception nor non > > perception would be classified? > > > > In which element (dhatu) and which sphere (ayatana)? > > dhammadhatu and dhammayatana? > ------- > N: We have to be careful here. No 2 and 4 are cittas (mano- > vi~n~naa.nadhaatu and manaayatana), and 1 and 3 are 'not so > classifiable', navattaaramma.na. Sarah wrote some posts about this. > But I have no time to google it up. See under navattaaramma.na to > check this. > Nina. > > > Dear Nina, all, Thank you for your reply. You have said that No 2 (base of infinite consciousness) and No 4 (neither perception nor non perception) are cittas. What exactly do they experience? What exactly is "base of infinite consciousness" experience *OF*? With metta, Alex #102859 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Tr.-1 Ch.-1 on Knowledge, learning. szmicio Dear Nina, Allow me to give my comments on that --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > > Questions: How exactly are these dhamma: > > a) To be Directly known (abhiññeyya), > > b) To be Fully understood (pariññeyya), > > c) to be Abandoned (pahatabba), > > d) to be developed (bhavetabba), > > e) to be realized (sacchikatabba) > ------- > N: I associate this with the three rounds and twelve modes as given > in the Dhammacakka- ppavatana sutta: > dukkha has to be fully understood > the origin of dukkha has to be abandoned, > the path has to be developed > the cessation of dukkha, nibbaana, has to be realized. > > As to a): The ear is applied thus: These dhamma are to be directly > known (abhiññeyya). Understanding as the act of understanding that > is knowledge of what consists in the learned. L: In the beging of Pa.tisambhidaamagga we can read those profound words of appreciation: <1. Sotaavadhaane pa~n~naa sutamaye ~naa.na.m. I. Understanding of applying the ear is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt) 2. Sutvaana sa.mvare pa~n~naa siilamaye ~naa.na.m. II. Understanding of restraint after hearing (learning) is knowledge of what consists in virtue 3. Sa.mvaritvaa samaadahane pa~n~naa samaadhibhaavanaamaye ~naa.na.m. III. Understanding of concentration after restraining is knowledge of what consists in the development of concentration> ---------------------------------------------------------- <1. Sotaavadhaane pa~n~naa sutamaye ~naa.na.m. I. Understanding of applying the ear is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt) - L: 1. Suttamaye ~nana. Is the kind of understanding that goes with hearing the Dhamma. This is not just intelectual understanding, this is understanding that goes with natural reflection of Dhamma. It needs to be kusala. First there needs to be applaying the ear, that I consider as just hearing. I consider this like the dhammas of hearing. This is conditiond. Bante Dhamadhara said a bit of this. That no one can hear Dhamma, it's conditioned. We cannot choose wheather we can listen to Dhamma or not. This is what i consider the understanding of applaying the ear. Suttamaye panna is the kind of knowladge we get after reading and hearing Dhamma. This is natural. ----------- 2. Sutvaana sa.mvare pa~n~naa siilamaye ~naa.na.m. II. Understanding of restraint after hearing (learning) is knowledge of what consists in virtue - L: We get restraing after hearing this is so natural. I can feel it. When I spend my time with Vibhangapaali. I have no need to anger or to speak much. I enjoy siilamaye pa~n~na. ----------- 3. Sa.mvaritvaa samaadahane pa~n~naa samaadhibhaavanaamaye ~naa.na.m. III. Understanding of concentration after restraining is knowledge of what consists in the development of concentration> - L: After this restraining there is samadhi. This is not teory you can feel this. When you see how siila conditions samadhi in so natural way. You can rest. No need to try to develop samadhi. Our samma samadhi is the kind of sammadhi we can get from siila. The one option. This is how Dhamma works, we read or hear wise reminder and there is siila after this, and this conditions samadhi. > I do not have the co. but I think that this refers to the fact that > all that is said is no theory, it refers to the development of > understanding of the present reality. L: Of course. After hearing, deep concentration. and not only concentration, this samaadhibhaavanaamaye ~naa.na.m. the panna that knows what is concentration development. > Take the term pariyatti: people may think that this just refers to > the texts, but that is not so. It refers to the reality appearing now. L: Oh no. Just madness. They are not the words that makes us understand. That is vibhanga. Nothing to learn from Texts. Just leave it all, and start live your life. And listen Dhamma. No Buddha now, we are all alone. We have to help each others now. > Dukkha now: seeing now is impermanent and thus dukkha, but the > arising and falling away of nama and rupa can only be realized when > there is clear, precise understanding of nama and rupa appearing at > this moment. Their characteristics are different. > ------- L: Dukkha.m abhi~n~neyya.m; dukkhasamudayo abhi~n~neyyo; dukkhanirodho abhi~n~neyyo; dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa abhi~n~neyyaa; You give distinction from Dhammacakapavattana. > dukkha has to be fully understood > the origin of dukkha has to be abandoned, > the path has to be developed > the cessation of dukkha, nibbaana, has to be realized. But there is also another one, each of 4 noble truths needs to be fully understood. Best wishes Lukas #102860 From: A T Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:12 am Subject: Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship truth_aerator Hello all, Here is brief outline of ña?a that go till maggaphala I. Understanding of applying the ear is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt) -- sutamaye ña?a?. II. Understanding of restraint after hearing is knowledge of what consists in virtue -- silamaye ña?a?. III. Understanding of concentrating after restraining is knowledge of what consists in development of concentration -- samadhibhavanamaye ña?a?. IV. Understanding of embracing conditions is knowledge of the causal relationship of phenomena -- dhamma??hitiña?a?. V. Understanding of defining past, future and present phenomena, after generalization, is knowledge of comprehension -- sammasaña?ana. VI. “When, one abides contemplating the rise and fall in regard to the five aggregates affected by holding, clinging, repulsiveness in respect of clinging is established.”- Pañcasu… upadanakkhandesu udayabbayanupassino viharato upadane pa?ikkulyata sa??hati -A III 32,9 I believe that repulsiveness is related to ña?as below and is direct outcome of udayabbayanupassino: VII. “Understanding of appearance as Terror", “Knowledge of danger”, and “Dispassion”, are one in meaning and only the letter is different. VIII “Desire-For-Deliverance”, “Contemplation-Of-Reflection”, and “Equinimity-about-Formations” (Sa?kharupekkhaña?a) are one in meaning and only the letter is different. IX. Change of lineage (gotrabhuña?a?) which leads to X-XI maggaphala. So the steps till bare arhatship are up to 11. With metta, Alex #102861 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Tr.-1 Ch.-1 on Knowledge, learning. nilovg Dear Lukas, Thank you for your remarks. Op 28-nov-2009, om 19:10 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > You give distinction from Dhammacakapavattana. > > > dukkha has to be fully understood > > the origin of dukkha has to be abandoned, > > the path has to be developed > > the cessation of dukkha, nibbaana, has to be realized. > > But there is also another one, each of 4 noble truths needs to be > fully understood. ------ N: Yes, true, that is the first round. There are twelve modes, so many aspects. Nina. #102862 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difference between name and form nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 27-nov-2009, om 8:02 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > N: They are known through the mind- > > door and only when the first stage of insight is reached we know > what > > a mind-door process is. Now it is concealed, we only know in theory, > > we know 'the story' about them. > > L: This is very true. Just story. I know only story a think that > maybe the truth. But that's ignorance. We cannot get out from that. > I like this: just story. > But there is also sacca ~nana that can develop very very slow, and > we cant even know that. ---------- N: you say: I know only story a think that maybe the truth. But that's ignorance. No, there can be correct thinking of the theory. That is not ignorance. It can condiiton the development of understanding of the present reality and in this way, as you say, sacca ~naa.na grows, although very slowly. The understanding of realities can become firmer. -------- Nina. #102863 From: "colette" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ksheri3 Hi Alex, I'm continuing today since I've found that a lot of material here in the DSG is devoted, recently, to namarupa and I have recently made note that "my friend, (who I spent ThanksGiving with) has a point at which she loses it, loses control of consciousness". As I examined this characteristic today I found that MAYBE thepoint is that she does not like to be labeled which brought me to NAME & FORM I'l;l be back tomorrow. colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > > This is to be expected when there is a sentient body and rebirth of namas and rupas into human world. > > > > > if this is to be "expected" then can't we give substance to the concept of a "bija"? > > colette > #102864 From: "colette" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:14 am Subject: Re: the morning after? ksheri3 Dear connie, How thoughtful of you to have picked up on my numerous tangents. That's one of my biggest problems with relating to people since, for some ungodly reason I have this characteristic which "connects" many things together when I speak words or write words, and people interpret this characteristic as being a sign of ULTERIOR MOTIVATION and thus they think of DUALITY, etc. as if I'm trying to trap them and have my way with them. <...> I am so glad that you picked up on my cavalier attitude and the "get over it" desire I have to be done with minutia, but, you fit very well yesterday and today which is why I'm glad to have you as a friend and colleague in our on-going study of hallucinations. (don't take that last characterization too far, skim please, walk on the water please, why can't it be done for me when everybody else in the gang, the mob, the tong, the status quo, the middle class, seems to enjoy that privelage, why should I be any differentm, THANK YOU) I'm sorry I've gone off here when you gave me such rich and deliscious tastes from meals I have not yet tried. Hopefully the fat will have burned off the top of this batch of the milk of human kindness which I am simmering, now. GOOD TO HEAR FROM CONNIE Have a wonderful day and a pleasant holiday season if we don't get to talk much during this madcap season of each and every year when emotions are high and easily accessable, when the actual physical needs of the body are ignored for the ego of partying with others under the heading of "but it's a holiday", in our case in America, we can go with "but it's christmas" where the creationists will be glorified <.....>-- yea right. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear colette, > > you: Glad to have you aboard or that I'm glad to be aboard. ;) > > me: ROLL ON COLUMBIA! The WA state anthem & yes! some boarders do ride the river's tanker waves, so bottom's up ;) I'm a poor swimmer. > > Funny you should mention veggies. > > Group of Discourses: > 1034. 'Streams flow everywhere', said the venerable Ajita. 'What is the restraint for streams? Tell me the constraint for streams. By what are streams dammed?' <...> #102865 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:52 pm Subject: The Blessed One! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Supreme Master was the Buddha! It was through understanding, that the Blessed One discovered the Dhamma! It was through compassion, that he taught it to the multitude of beings. It was through understanding, that he felt disillusion with the rebirth round. It was through compassion, that he bore it, while learning to liberate others. It was through understanding, that he fully understood others' suffering, It was through compassion, that he undertook to counteract this misery. It was through understanding, that he himself crossed over to Nibbana! It was through compassion, that he brought other beings across also... It was through compassion, that he practised & taught no-cruelty to others. It was through understanding, that he himself was fearless of all others. It was through compassion, that he became this world's only real helper. It was through understanding, that he became his own absolute helper. It was through compassion, that he was humble and gentle as a Bodhisatta. It was through understanding, that he gained majestic dignity as a Buddha. It was through compassion, that he helped all beings as a safeguarding father. It was through understanding, that he remained detached from all beings. It was through understanding, that his mind was detached from all states. For just as the Blessed One's compassion was without sentimental fondness so was his supreme understanding free from the concepts of "I" and "mine"... Vism. Comm: Pm. 192-93 <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #102866 From: Herman Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa stages = dhamma dhatu? egberdina Hi Nina, 2009/11/29 Nina van Gorkom > Dear Alex, > Op 28-nov-2009, om 0:24 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > Where are base of infinite space, base of infinite consciousness, > > base of nothingness and base of neither perception nor non > > perception would be classified? > > > > In which element (dhatu) and which sphere (ayatana)? > > dhammadhatu and dhammayatana? > ------- > N: We have to be careful here. No 2 and 4 are cittas (mano- > vi~n~naa.nadhaatu and manaayatana), and 1 and 3 are 'not so > classifiable', navattaaramma.na. Sarah wrote some posts about this. > But I have no time to google it up. See under navattaaramma.na to > check this. > I couldn't find anything with that word. Did you perhaps mean navattabba? Cheers Herman #102867 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] happy thanksgiving nichiconn Hi Herman, Herman: What, to you, is conducive to understanding the reality of the only moment there is, in what you quoted above? c: Without-the-Walls. For one it's a nice reminder that if it isn't concerned with dana, sila or bhavana, it's akusala & once again, the moment's passed us by. How about for you? peace, connie #102868 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:26 pm Subject: Re: the morning after? nichiconn dear colette, Thank you and many returns on your best wishes. After we spoke yesterday, I was laughing about how actual events occur at any given time & if the citta is not kusala... drop by drop, either way & it's not the pure water we need to worry about spilling out. that's all well and good but you know what i think, colette? just like everyone else, jack and jill's pails trickled a bit & who doesn't tumble down, sport? lol - i hope you don't mind being of significance to this here jill. peace, connie #102869 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:42 pm Subject: Re: Without the Walls nichiconn dear pt and all, Illustrator ch.VII continues: 3. By whom was it uttered? Where? When? And why? It may be stated that it was uttered by the Blessed One. And that was at Raajagaha [202] on the day following [his arrival at Raajagaha], the purpose being to give his blessing to the king of Magadha. 4. Ninety-two aeons ago there was a city called Kaasi. The king there was called Jayasena and his queen was called Sirimaa. The Bodhisatta (Creature Dedicated to Enlightenment) named Phussa was conceived in her womb. After he had eventually discovered complete enlightenment, king Jayasena became possessive with the thought 'My son made the Great Renunciation and became an Enlightened One. The Enlightened One is mine, the True Idea is mine, the Community is mine', and all the time he himself attended on him, allowing no one else a chance to do so. Three of that Blessed One's younger half-brothers by a different mother thought 'Enlightened Ones appear for the whole world's benefit, not for the sake of one person alone, and our father allows no one else a chance to attend upon him. How can we contrive to attend upon the Blessed One?'. Then they thought 'Let us see if we can find a way'. So they had it appear as if the border was in revolt. When the king heard that the border was in revolt, he sent his three sons to pacify the border. When that was done and they had come back, the king was pleased and offered them a boon: 'Whatever you want' he said 'take it.' - They said 'We want to wait upon the Blessed One'. - 'Take anything but that.' - They insisted 'We have no wish for anything else'. - 'Then take that, but set a limit.' They asked successively for six, five, four, three, two years, one year, seven months, six, five four months, till they came down to three months, and then the king said 'You may take it', and he allowed them that. to be continued, connie #102870 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:08 pm Subject: Conditionality through temporal gap truth_aerator Dear Nina, Sarah, Jon, all, How does conditionality passes from one conscious moment to another, Especially if there is a long unconscious gap? Lets say that a person has entered cessation of perception and feeling for 7 days. If mind at emergence is conditioned by the only previous mental state that has happened 7 days ago, how did the conditionality pass through? What caused the mind to emerge? Also. What causes the mind of asannasati being restart after 500 MK? There is a tougher version of the above. What if a being in arupa loka enters cessation of perception & feelings. Then there isn't anything for 7 days (neither nama nor rupa). What caused mind to emerge? There is a problem with saying that (past and thus no longer existing) cause has produced a present existing result. That way ANY EFFECT can happen since non-existing "real" cause and any non-existing fictional cause as causes (not existing now) are both on the same level of not-existing. With metta, Alex #102871 From: han tun Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:30 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (76) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 10. Conclusion Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ Conclusion The study of the different kinds of ruupa will help us to understand more clearly the various conditions for the arising of bodily phenomena and mental phenomena. Gradually we shall come to understand that all our experiences in life, all the objects we experience, our bodily movements and our speech are only conditioned naama and ruupa. In the planes of existence where there are naama and ruupa, naama conditions ruupa and ruupa conditions naama in different ways. The ruupas that are sense objects and the ruupas that can function as sense-doors are conditions for the different cittas arising in processes which experience sense objects. In order to develop understanding of naama and ruupa it is necessary to learn to be mindful of the naama or ruupa appearing at the present moment. Only one object at a time can be object of mindfulness and in the beginning we may find this difficult. The study of ruupas can help us to have more clarity about the fact that only one object at a time can be experienced through one of the six doors. Visible object, for example, can be experienced through the eye-door, it cannot be experienced through the body-door, thus, through touch. Seeing-consciousness experiences what is visible and body-consciousness experiences tangible object, such as hardness or softness. Through each door the appropriate object can be experienced and the different doorways should not be confused with one another. When we believe that we can see and touch a flower, we think of a concept. We can learn to see the difference between awareness of one reality at a time and thinking of a concept. A concept or conventional truth can be an object of thought, but it is not a paramattha dhamma, an ultimate reality with its own inalterable characteristic. It may seem difficult to be mindful of one reality at a time, but realities such as visible object, hardness or sound are impinging on the senses time and again. When we have understood that they have different characteristics and that they present themselves one at a time, we can learn to be mindful of them. We should remember that at the moment of mindfulness of a reality understanding of that reality can be developed. Right understanding should be the goal. There is no self who understands. Understanding is a cetasika, a type of naama; it understands and it can develop. ------------------------------ Chapter 10. Conclusion to be continued. with metta, Han #102872 From: Herman Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Different cittas. How they work. Feel free to comment. egberdina Hi Lukas, 2009/11/28 Lukas > Hi Herman, > > >Absolutely fascinating. Thank you for posting the link. This is not > >cittas,however. It is form. > > L: I think this is form driven by citta. There is always nama and ruupa. > nama depends on ruupa, and ruupa depends on citta. I can quote firtst > chapter of Khun Nina's Abhidhamma In daily life: > I think it is interesting that you think that footage from a camera that registers 7000 frames per second is about citta. This camera is actually 100 times faster than human vision. Clearly rupa does not depend on citta, at best citta is deceiving about what is really happening. Cheers Herman > > > Furthermore, nama has no efficient power, it cannot occur by its own > efficient power... It does not eat, it does not drink, it does not speak, it > does not adopt postures. And rupa is without efficient power; it cannot > occur by its own efficient power. For it has no desire to eat, it has no > desire to drink, it has no desire to speak, it has no desire to adopt > postures. But rather it is when supported by rupa that nama occurs; and it > is when supported by nama that rupa occurs. When nama has the desire to eat, > the desire to drink, the desire to speak, the desire to adopt a posture, it > is rupa that eats, drinks, speaks and adopts a posture.... > > Furthermore (XVIII, 36) we read: > > And just as men depend upon > A boat for traversing the sea, > So does the mental body need > The matter-body for occurrence. > And as the boat depends upon > The men for traversing the sea, > So does the matter-body need > The mental body for occurrence. > Depending each upon the other > The boat and men go on the sea. > And so do mind and matter both > Depend the one upon the other.> > > ------------------ #102873 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:57 pm Subject: Different cittas. How they work. Feel free to comment. nichiconn Hi Lukas, Herman Herman: I think it is interesting that you think that footage from a camera that registers 7000 frames per second is about citta. This camera is actually 100 times faster than human vision. Clearly rupa does not depend on citta, at best citta is deceiving about what is really happening. connie: Citta's speed is immeasurable... beyond the speed of light/rupa. Totally agree that our perceptions are limited and deceptive. peace, connie #102874 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Conditionality through temporal gap ptaus1 Hi Alex, I asked a similar question recently, and Nina's reply is in post 101209: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101209 > A: How does conditionality passes from one conscious moment to another, > Especially if there is a long unconscious gap? > > Lets say that a person has entered cessation of perception and feeling for 7 days. If mind at emergence is conditioned by the only previous mental state that has happened 7 days ago, how did the conditionality pass through? What caused the mind to emerge? > > Also. What causes the mind of asannasati being restart after 500 MK? pt: Don't know about the below two questions though. > A: There is a tougher version of the above. What if a being in arupa loka enters cessation of perception & feelings. Then there isn't anything for 7 days (neither nama nor rupa). What caused mind to emerge? > > > There is a problem with saying that (past and thus no longer existing) cause has produced a present existing result. That way ANY EFFECT can happen since non-existing "real" cause and any non-existing fictional cause as causes (not existing now) are both on the same level of not-existing. Best wishes pt #102875 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:43 pm Subject: conditions through temporal abyss truth_aerator Dear Nina, pt, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear pt, > ------- > N: As U Narada in his Guide to Conditional Relations (p. 20) > explains: Proximity Force is not destroyed by the intervention of > Materiality. : "Then, after emerging from this attainment, the > Anaagaami fruition consciousness arises. Although metariality has > intervened between the two mental states, faultless neither- > perception-nor-non-perception impulsion is related to Anaagaamii > Fruition-consciousness by proximity condiiton. This is stated in >the 1)What about during Arupa loka stages where there isn't any physical body (and I wonder what kind of materiality can there be)? 2nd) How can materiality, intervene? What does that mean? Does it store some mental knowledge (such as when to come out from nirodha samapatti)? 3rd)Does bhavanga cease in Nirodha Samapatti?) 4) If past does not exist, then causes (which are always past compared to present results) would not exist. How can effects/results be due to non-existing causes? Doesn't this destroy the teaching of "all things arise from a cause"? With metta, Alex #102876 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:05 pm Subject: Re: conditions through temporal abyss ptaus1 Hi Alex, This is just what I remember from reading up on this topic in UP: > A: 2nd) How can materiality, intervene? What does that mean? Does it store some mental knowledge (such as when to come out from nirodha samapatti)? pt: "Materiality intervenes" is simply an expression that basically says that there's only rupas arising (produced by temperature, nutrition and kamma, but not by citta), but no namas arising, while in nirodha samapatti. So, (in my understanding) the strength of proximity condition is such that it is irrelevant for how long there are no namas arising (i.e. matter is intervening at that time), it will still cause the next nama to arise at some point. > A: 3rd)Does bhavanga cease in Nirodha Samapatti?) pt: Since citta is a nama, there's no bhavanga cittas in nirodha samapatti. > A: 4) If past does not exist, then causes (which are always past compared to present results) would not exist. How can effects/results be due to non-existing causes? Doesn't this destroy the teaching of "all things arise from a cause"? pt: Not sure about this one, I was reading up in UP on "time" in abhidhamma, and as far as I understand so far, it can be said that the present citta is an expression of all the past dhammas (conditions). Actually, I don't think I can explaining this properly at all, better wait for Nina or someone else to respond. Best wishes pt #102877 From: "connie" Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:28 pm Subject: conditions through temporal abyss nichiconn dear Alex, pt, Re: 4) If past does not exist, then causes (which are always past compared to present results) would not exist. How can effects/results be due to non-existing causes? Doesn't this destroy the teaching of "all things arise from a cause"? p.11 - Intro to "The Great Discourse on Causation" The conascence condition (sahajaata-paccaya) and decisive support condition (upanissaya-paccaya) are the primary examples of two contrasting kinds of conditional relationship, distinguished by their temporal mode. Conascence is the prototype of the tie between simultaneous phenomena, things sharing a common origination and cessation. It includes under itself such other conditions of the Pa.t.thaana system as mutuality, support, association, and presence; some of these are narrower in scope (e.g. mutuality), others broader (e.g. presence). Decisive support is the most prominent condition relating non-simultaneous phenomena. It signifies the powerful causal influence one thing may exert on another when they are separated by an interval of time - either a moment's lapse (object decisive support), immediate succession (proximity decisive support), or an extended period (natural decisive support). There are other conditional relations which do not fall neatly under these two headings, but these two suffice to show the diversity possible in the interrelations of the factors of dependent arising. Such diversity precludes attempts to force these relations into a uniform mould either of simultaneity or succession, errors occasionally committed by earlier interpreters of the doctrine. - Bhikkhu Bodhi. Nothing arises from a single "cause", "causal condition" or "force"/satti. Past doesn't have to exist, just dhammas in passing. peace, connie #102878 From: "ashkenn2k" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah > ... > S: After a sense door process, there arise many bhavanga (process-freed) cittas and then always a mind door process. All the detail is in CMA or the Vism or Nina's ADL. Let us know if you can't find it. Perhaps I misunderstand your qu? KO: I happen to read the Book of Analysis and this could be the reason on there is always a mind door proccess after a sense door process. Also I also realise my own mistaken view that there is profitable and unprofitable under the javana process at the sense door, the texts said it could only happen in the mind door. I must thank Alex for it as he is the one who ask Ptsim on what is directly known and I am trying to find information on it and happen to look at this. Book of Analysis(Vibhanga) pg 408, Analysis of Knowledge <<751. The basis of knowledge by way of singlefold division: The five types of sense consciousness are not root; .......... ................... even immediately following the five types of consciousness one establishes no bodily action, no verbal action; by the five types of sense consciousness one performs no good or bad state; even following the five types of consciousness one performs no good or bad state ......................>> The Dispeller of Delusion pg 151 <<2047. And as they have not these functions, so also those of entry into certainity etc. For one does not enter into certainity of wrongness with impulsion belong to the five doors, nor into certainity of rightness; nor does this impulsion impel on being instigated by a personal name or clan name; nor by a concept such as a kasina, nor does it occur though insight which has the characterisitcs as object, nor does it occur through insight which leads to emergence, nor instigated by fine-material or immaterial states, nor nibbana, nor does discrimination knowledge arise through it, nor knowledge of the supernormal achievements, nor knowledge of the disciple's perfections nor knowledge of pacceka-Buddhahood, nor omniscient knowledge. But all this sort is found in mind-door impulsion only.>> Cheers Ken O #102879 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Inducing samatha jonoabb Hi Herman (102623) > I wonder if you would like to reconsider any of the above, in light of the > following: > =============== Thanks for this sutta. I do not read it to be disparaging of living in monasteries in or near towns/villages, or to be extolling living in the wilderness, for its own sake. Taking the first paragraph: > =============== > "Nagita, there is the case where I see a monk sitting in concentration in a > village dwelling. The thought occurs to me, 'Soon a monastery attendant will > disturb this venerable one in some way, or a novice will, and rouse him from > his concentration.' And so I am not pleased with that monk's > village-dwelling. > =============== This makes the point that village monasteries are not ideal places for those intent on developing concentration to the highest levels. It does not disparage village monasteries per se. > =============== > "But then there is the case where I see a monk sitting, nodding, in the > wilderness. The thought occurs to me, 'Soon this venerable one will dispel > his drowsiness & fatigue and attend to the wilderness-perception, > [his > mind] unified.' And so I am pleased with that monk's wilderness-dwelling. > =============== In the situation being described here, the wilderness-dwelling monk is one who has the ability to "dispel his drowsiness & fatigue and attend to the wilderness-perception". Not every person would have this capability. It shows highly developed aptitude for wilderness dwelling, an aptitude that must be developed first over time. Nor do I read this as saying that going to the wilderness gives a person the ability to dispel drowsiness and fatigue etc. Taking the following pair of paragraphs: > =============== > "Then there is the case where I see a village-dwelling monk who receives > robes, alms food, shelter, & medicinal requisites for curing the sick. > Receiving, as he likes, those gains, offerings, & fame, he neglects > seclusion, he neglects isolated forest & wilderness dwellings. He makes his > living by visiting villages, towns, & cities. And so I am not pleased with > that monk's village-dwelling. > > "Then there is the case where I see a wilderness monk who receives robes, > alms food, shelter, & medicinal requisites for curing the sick. Fending off > those gains, offerings, & fame, he doesn't neglect seclusion, doesn't > neglect isolated forest & wilderness dwellings. And so I am pleased with > that monk's wilderness-dwelling. > =============== In both cases the monk receives the robes, etc. In the first, the monk (who is a village-dweller) also "receives" gains, offerings and fame, while in the second the monk (who is a wilderness-dweller) "fends off" the gains, offerings and fame. It's this "receiving" vs. "fending off" of gains, offerings and fame that is the crucial difference between the 2 cases. This however is a difference that is attributable to their respective levels of development in the teachings, rather than to their place of dwelling. I'm wondering why you think this passage contradicts what I said in my earlier post. Do you see this passage as a call to all monks to go to the wilderness, so that if the village-dwelling monk were to move to the wilderness he would become just like the wilderness-dwelling monk? Is it your understanding that all the most advanced monks were wilderness-dwellers while all the less-advanced ones were village dwellers? Or what? Jon #102880 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:29 am Subject: Re: Reply to Ken O /with a new subject heading jonoabb Hi pt (102630) > Okay, I'll rephrase the question. How is a moment of samatha defined as "kusala that is accompanied by understanding of the level that knows the difference between kusala and akusala" different from a moment of jhana? > > I.e. what I'm looking for is the third step in the progression you outlined: > > 1. "moments of metta that are just metta" > > 2. "moments of metta that are samatha bhavana is the accompanying (or immediately following) understanding of those moments as kusala" - this of course is the samatha bhavana level accessible by dry insight practice. > > 3. jhana - what's the difference between 2 and 3, and how does 2 become 3? > You are asking how samatha becomes jhana, given that samatha is defined as "kusala that is accompanied by understanding of the level that knows the difference between kusala and akusala". To my understanding, the connection is the nexus that exists between the experiencing of objects through the sense-doors and the arising of akusala in the form of attachment or aversion to those objects. The yogin sees (with panna) that if both kusala and concentration are developed to the stage that the sense-door consciousnesses are suppressed (if that's the right word?) for a period, so that no akusala arises dependent on sense-door objects through that doorway, then there will be only kusala for the period of that sense-door suppression. To my understanding, the starting point of this development has to be the understanding of the difference between kusala and akusala as and when it arises, so that there is no mistaking subtle akusala for kusala. This is the 'tranquility' from which samatha gets its name. It is only at the more developed stages that the aspect of concentration becomes dominant. Jon PS Regarding your comment under item 2 that "this of course is the samatha bhavana level accessible by dry insight practice", to my understanding the expressions "dry insight", "samatha-yaanika" and the like are only applicable to a person post-attainment, because it is only then that it can be known what his way of attainment was. It's not being suggested that the follower should aspire to attain by one way or the other, and I don't think you'll find any reference in the texts to persons undertaking "dry insight practice". Each of the 2 kinds of bhavana -- vipassana bhavana and samatha bhavana -- is the same for all regardless of how much or little of the other kind has also been developed. PPS My apologies if you received an earlier copy/ies of this post off-list. There was a glitch this end with my logging on to the list. #102881 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Inducing samatha jonoabb Hi Herman (102680) > Thank you for answering, and yes, your answer does address the point I was > raising. What I have inferred from your answer, and please correct me if I > have done so incorrectly, is that panna can only be known after the fact, by > a process of reasoning. > =============== That is a reasonable inference from what I wrote. However it is not a correct one ;-)) That means I need to supplement or refine what I said in my earlier post. The dhammas spoken of by the Buddha can be known only by panna; they are not apparent to the person who has never heard the teachings. When sati/panna arises, it has as object one of those dhammas (for example, seeing consciousness or visible object), rather than the people and things which are otherwise taken as being the realities of world at the present moment. So moments of sati/panna are manifestly different from other (non-sati/panna) moments, without the need for any after-the-fact thinking about it. Jon #102882 From: Ken O Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Tr.-1 Ch.-1 on Knowledge, learning. ashkenn2k Dear Alex >Then it says that these dhamma are to be Directly known (abhiññeyyÄ?), Fully understood (pariññeyyÄ?), to be Abandoned (pahÄ?tabbÄ?), to be developed (bhÄ?vetabbÄ?), to be realized (sacchikÄ?tabbÄ?) > >Questions: How exactly are these dhammÄ?: >a) To be Directly known (abhiññeyyÄ?), >b) To be Fully understood (pariññeyyÄ?), >c) to be Abandoned (pahÄ?tabbÄ?), >d) to be developed (bhÄ?vetabbÄ?), >e) to be realized (sacchikÄ?tabbÄ?) The Dispeller of Delusion pg 112 <<445.   And the first two are similar because they are profound because hard to grasp, since they are mundane and since they are accompanied by cankers. They are dissimlar as being divided into fruit and cause and as being respectively to be fully understand and to be abandoned. Also the last two are similiar because they are hard to grasp because profound, since they are supramundane and since they are without cankers. They are dissimilar as being divided into object and what has an object and as being respectively to be realised and to be developed ...>> The Book of Analysis pg 544, 7.   The Section "To be known fully', etc, describe the dhamma that has to be fully known, how many to be fully comprehend, how many are to be abandoned, how may are to be developed and how many are to be realised, how many not to be abandoned, not to be developed, not to be released. These dhammas are on aggregates, bases, elements, noble truth, nine controlling facuties, roots, nutrients, contact, feelings, preception, volition, consciousness. Too lazy to type all because very lengthy. just type for the aggregates: <<1031. The aggregate of material quality is to be known fully, is to be comprehended; is not to be abandoned, not to be developed, not to be realized. Four aggregates are to be known fully, are to be comprehended; sometimes are to be abandoned, sometimes are to be developed; sometimes are to be realized; sometimes are not to be abandoned, not to be developed, not to be realized.>> Cheers Ken O #102883 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 29-nov-2009, om 11:17 heeft ashkenn2k het volgende geschreven: > Also I also realise my own mistaken view that there is profitable > and unprofitable under the javana process at the sense door, the > texts said it could only happen in the mind door. ------ N: Even in a sense-door process there are kusala javana cittas and akusala javana cittas. The texts speak about action motivated by these cittas. Akusala citta does not always have the intensity of akusala kamma. Nina. #102884 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa stages = dhamma dhatu? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 28-nov-2009, om 17:18 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > You have said that No 2 (base of infinite consciousness) and No 4 > (neither perception nor non perception) are cittas. > > What exactly do they experience? ------- N: 2: This is the citta experiencing infinite space. 4: this is the citta experiencing 'there is nothing'. Thus these two take the preceding subject as the object they experience. This subject is far too difficult for me. Besides, it does not help me to know the reality appearing right now. --------- Nina. #102885 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa stages = dhamma dhatu? nilovg Hi Herman, Alex, Sorry, spelling mistake: navattabba. Nina. Op 29-nov-2009, om 1:04 heeft Herman het volgende geschreven: > I couldn't find anything with that word. Did you perhaps mean > navattabba? #102886 From: Ken O Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. ashkenn2k Dear Nina You are right there is kusala and akusala javanas in the sense cittas. Now it becomes clearer, intensity is the difference. the translated text use certainity is also a good good, Thanks for pointing it out. Cheers Ken O #102887 From: Ken O Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality through temporal gap ashkenn2k Dear Alex >Lets say that a person has entered cessation of perception and feeling for 7 days. If mind at emergence is conditioned by the only previous mental state that has happened 7 days ago, how did the conditionality pass through? What caused the mind to emerge? KO: explain by Nina >There is a tougher version of the above. What if a being in arupa loka enters cessation of perception & feelings. Then there isn't anything for 7 days (neither nama nor rupa). What caused mind to emerge? KO: Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma pg 364, Guide 43 << .... it cannot be obatined within the immaterial plan, for there is no attaining of the four fine-material jhanas there, which are the pre-requisites for entering cessation. To enter cessation teh meditator must attain each jhana in proper sequence. After emerging from each one, he contemplates its factors as impermanent, suffering and non-self.>> > A: 2nd) How can materiality, intervene? What does that mean? Does it store some mental knowledge (such as when to come out from nirodha samapatti)? KO: it is not intervene by materiality, it is by one's development on how long is the duration of the attainment. Max is up to seven days. Even then the meditator must make four resolutions: 1. that his requisties would not be destroyed, 2. when his services needed by Sangha, 3, summon by the Buddha, 4, he is not bound to die in seven days. > A: 3rd)Does bhavanga cease in Nirodha Samapatti?) KO: pt is right, Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary, pg 148 <<55 ...... the occurence of the existence-continuum, it is unbroken in the absence of the attainment of cessarion;.......>> > >Also. What causes the mind of asannasati being restart after 500 MK? KO: By kamma, the materiality of the asaannsati being will cease. After that kamma would produce the relinking citta again. > A: 4) If past does not exist, then causes (which are always past compared to present results) would not exist. How can effects/results be due to non-existing causes? Doesn't this destroy the teaching of "all things arise from a cause"? KO: For asannasati beings, it is previous kamma that conditioned their present state of being. Cheers Ken O #102888 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality through temporal gap upasaka_howard Hi, Alex & Ken - In a message dated 11/29/2009 11:35:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: 4) If past does not exist, then causes (which are always past compared to present results) would not exist. How can effects/results be due to non-existing causes? Doesn't this destroy the teaching of "all things arise from a cause"? KO: For asannasati beings, it is previous kamma that conditioned their present state of being. ===================================== Alex, you are reifying causes and causality. You are looking for some hidden, underlying causal powers, influences, and forces. But the matter is both simpler and far more subtle than that. It is a matter of mere conditionality: "When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that." When (and only when) all the requisite conditions for a dhamma have occurred, the dhamma arises. There is nothing more to say. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102889 From: "connie" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:45 am Subject: Without the Walls Cy 5-6 nichiconn dear pt and all, continuing from #102869: 5. When they had obtained the boon, they were very contented. They approached the Blessed One, and after paying homage to him, they said 'Venerable sir, we want to wait upon the Blessed One for three months. Venerable sir, let the Blessed One consent to this for this three-months' Residence for the Rains'. The Blessed One consented by his silence. 6. Thereupon they sent a letter to a man who was an agent of theirs in the country, [203] [saying] 'The Blessed One is to be waited upon by us during these three month. Have a dwelling built and prepare everything needed for waiting on the Blessed One'. When he had completed it all, he informed them. So after clothing themselves in the yellow cloth, they, together with two thousand five hundred male retainers, conducted the Blessed One to the country, waiting on him attentively, and they dedicated the dwelling to him and installed him in it. Their treasurer, a married householder's son, had faith and confidence. He took care to give material for alms for the Community headed by the Enlightened One. The country agent received the material and along with eleven thousand men from the countryside he had almsgivings carefully arranged. Now some among those men were disaffected in their hearts. They obstructed the almsgiving, themselves ate the stuff to be given, and set fire to the refectory. When the Pavaara.naa Ceremony was over, the king's sons worshipped the Blessed One, and, with the Blessed One preceeding them, they returned to their father. The Blessed One, after his return there, attained extinction. to be continued, connie #102890 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:21 am Subject: Re: conditions through temporal abyss truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: #102876 > Hello PT, Nina, all, But how can proximity condition function over time gap? When the citta ceases and there is no more citta for 7 days, what causes the emergence of the 1st citta after nirodha samapatti? With metta, Alex #102891 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa stages = dhamma dhatu? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: #102884 > Dear Nina, all, Thank you for your reply. Though I am interested in exactly what the experience of infinite space, infinite consciousness, base of nothingness, neither perception nor perception is. With metta, Alex #102892 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality through temporal gap truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: #102888 > Hello Howard, You are probably right. Maybe these kinds of questions (and questions on precise working of kamma. Or What was the cause of first cause? What was the cause of first cause? Ad infinitum.) can make one crazy. With metta, Alex #102893 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality through temporal gap upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 11/29/2009 1:39:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, You are probably right. Maybe these kinds of questions (and questions on precise working of kamma. Or What was the cause of first cause? What was the cause of first cause? Ad infinitum.) can make one crazy. -------------------------------------------- The Buddha said as much! :-) -------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #102894 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:36 pm Subject: katthavathu book 2 links truth_aerator Hello all, If anyone is interested here are two translations of Katthavathu (points of controversy, Abhidhamma book) http://lirs.ru/do/The_Debates_Commentary,Bimala,1940.pdf Points of Controversy or Subjects of Discourse being translation of the Katha-Vatthu from the Abhidhamma Pitaka by Shwe Zang Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids, London 1915. http://lirs.ru/do/Points_of_Controversy_(Kathavatthu),Aung,Davids,1915.pdf With metta, Alex #102895 From: "connie" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:26 pm Subject: Re: katthavathu book 2 links nichiconn Thanks, Alex! Another good one there you might be interested in: http://lirs.ru/lib/The_Guide,Nettippakarana,Nanamoli,1977.pdf peace, connie #102896 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:41 pm Subject: Buddhist Books PDF truth_aerator Hello Connie, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Thanks, Alex! > Another good one there you might be interested in: > http://lirs.ru/lib/The_Guide,Nettippakarana,Nanamoli,1977.pdf > peace, > connie > I have that one. Do you have VsM http://lirs.ru/do/The_Path_of_Purification,Visuddhimagga,Nanamoli,1991.pdf 32.7 MB And on what VsM was based: http://lirs.ru/do/The_Path_of_Freedom,Vimuttimagga,N.Ehara,1961.pdf With metta, Alex #102897 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:52 pm Subject: Why KS teaches dry insight? Netti. truth_aerator Hello RobertK2, Nina, Sarah, Jon, Connie and all, I remember that long ago there was a quote from Netti about people of blunt faculties are to be taught vipassana (rather than samatha or samatha-vipassana). However "the Blessed One makes one of blunt faculties understand by means of the training in the higher virtue." Vs "the Blessed One makes one of keen faculties understand by means of the training in the higher understanding;" So how exactly does one train in higher virtue? In the suttas the training in higher virtue (adhisila sikkha) is about restraint according to Patimokkha rules, keeping (227) monastic rules and seeing faults in the tiniest transgression. ""And what is the training in heightened virtue? There is the case where a monk is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest fault. This is called the training in heightened virtue." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.088.than.html ========= 587. Herein, the Blessed One advises one of keen faculties with advice in brief; the Blessed One advises one of medium faculties with advice in brief and detail; the Blessed One advises one of blunt faculties with advice in detail. Herein, the Blessed One discloses a blunt (light) teaching of the True Idea to one of keen faculties; the Blessed One discloses a blunt-to-keen teaching of the True Idea [101] to one of medium faculties; the Blessed One discloses a keen teaching of the True Idea to one of blunt faculties. Herein, the Blessed One discloses quiet to one of keen faculties; the Blessed One discloses quiet and insight to one of medium faculties; the Blessed One discloses insight to one of blunt faculties. Herein, the Blessed One discloses escape to one of keen faculties; the Blessed One discloses disappointment and escape to one of medium faculties; the Blessed One discloses gratification and disappointment and escape to one of blunt faculties. Herein, the Blessed One makes one of keen faculties understand by means of the training in the higher understanding; the Blessed One makes one of medium faculties understand by means of the training in the higher cognizance; the Blessed One makes one of blunt faculties understand by means of the training in the higher virtue. ===== the Blessed One advises one of blunt faculties with: advice in detail. Discloses a keen teaching of the True Idea to one of blunt faculties; discloses insight to one of blunt faculties; discloses gratification and disappointment and escape to one of blunt faculties. The Blessed One makes one of blunt faculties understand by means of the training in the higher virtue. With metta, Alex #102898 From: Herman Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] happy thanksgiving egberdina Hi connie, 2009/11/29 connie > > Hi Herman, > > Herman: What, to you, is conducive to understanding the reality of the only > moment there is, in what you quoted above? > > c: Without-the-Walls. For one it's a nice reminder that if it isn't > concerned with dana, sila or bhavana, it's akusala & once again, the > moment's passed us by. How about for you? > > Personally, I don't see anything of benefit in offering food that is never eaten. Cheers Herman #102899 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:32 pm Subject: Re: Buddhist Books PDF chewsadhu Dear Alex and Connie, Thank you very much. With respect, Chew #102900 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:54 pm Subject: Re: Why KS teaches dry insight? Netti. szmicio Dear Alex, Please keep on the good work. I appreciate this so much. Please let me give my comments on that. > I remember that long ago there was a quote from Netti about people of blunt faculties are to be taught vipassana (rather than samatha or samatha-vipassana). > > However "the Blessed One makes one of blunt faculties understand by means of the training in the higher virtue." > > Vs > > "the Blessed One makes one of keen faculties understand by means of the training in the higher understanding;" > > > So how exactly does one train in higher virtue? In the suttas the training in higher virtue (adhisila sikkha) is about restraint according to Patimokkha rules, keeping (227) monastic rules and seeing faults in the tiniest transgression. > > ""And what is the training in heightened virtue? There is the case where a monk is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest fault. This is called the training in heightened virtue." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.088.than.html > > ========= > 587. Herein, the Blessed One advises one of keen faculties with > advice in brief; the Blessed One advises one of medium faculties > with advice in brief and detail; the Blessed One advises one of > blunt faculties with advice in detail. > > Herein, the Blessed One discloses a blunt (light) teaching of the > True Idea to one of keen faculties; the Blessed One discloses a > blunt-to-keen teaching of the True Idea [101] to one of medium > faculties; the Blessed One discloses a keen teaching of the True > Idea to one of blunt faculties. > > Herein, the Blessed One discloses quiet to one of keen faculties; > the Blessed One discloses quiet and insight to one of medium > faculties; the Blessed One discloses insight to one of blunt faculties. > > Herein, the Blessed One discloses escape to one of keen faculties; > the Blessed One discloses disappointment and escape to one of > medium faculties; the Blessed One discloses gratification and > disappointment and escape to one of blunt faculties. > > Herein, the Blessed One makes one of keen faculties understand > by means of the training in the higher understanding; the Blessed > One makes one of medium faculties understand by means of the > training in the higher cognizance; the Blessed One makes one of > blunt faculties understand by means of the training in the higher > virtue. > ===== L: I wanna said this. We cannot understand Buddha now. But Theras could. They really undarstood each of Buddha word so accurately. They made they own Dhammadana to us. > the Blessed One advises one of blunt faculties with: advice in detail. Discloses a keen teaching of the True Idea to one of blunt faculties; discloses insight to one of blunt faculties; discloses gratification and disappointment and escape to one of blunt faculties. L: 587. Herein, the Blessed One advises one of keen faculties with advice in brief; the Blessed One advises one of medium faculties with advice in brief and detail; the Blessed One advises one of blunt faculties with advice in detail. > The Blessed One makes one of blunt faculties understand by means of the training in the higher virtue. L: Last Paragraph: L: if the person is of keen faculties(comprehands clearly) than he/she trains in understanding. The person with keen faculties can undarstand Sutta by just one reminder. Can get the True meaning of Sutta without no further explanation. I know such persons, they are very rare. They can hear on ruupa or khandha and get right understanding instantly. They dont see in suttas what we usually see. They can get from sutta, what we can get after long listening Abhidhamma(detailed way). They are excellant. They get the same without hearing Abhidhamma even. Why the person with blunt faculties trains in higher virtue? Because it's easy ;> We still need to listen more and more. In more detailed way. Best wishes Lukas #102901 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why KS teaches dry insight? Netti. nilovg Dear Lukas and Alex, Op 30-nov-2009, om 6:54 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Why the person with blunt faculties trains in higher virtue? ------- N: When the word adhi, higher, adhisiila, is used, it is implied that it goes together with vipassanaa. No 'adhi' without satipa.t.thaana. ------- Nina. #102902 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Why KS teaches dry insight? Netti. szmicio Dear Nina and Alex, > > Why the person with blunt faculties trains in higher virtue? > ------- > N: When the word adhi, higher, adhisiila, is used, it is implied that > it goes together with vipassanaa. No 'adhi' without satipa.t.thaana. L: So this is the kind of siila that goes with samma-ditthi. This is not just siila, but it's only conditioned by right understanding. This is actually how I feel that. When right understanding is present it can condition right siila. I think the siila of Path is adhisiila. Best wishes Lukas #102903 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Why KS teaches dry insight? Netti. szmicio With purification of view, with 4 Noble Truths, there comes also adhisiila. Buddha said in Majjhima Nikaya: "In 4 Noble Truths all kusalas are included". Best wishes Lukas #102904 From: han tun Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:25 am Subject: Re; [dsg] Buddhist Books PDF hantun1 Dear Alex, Thank you very much for giving us the following two books as Dhamma Daana. http://lirs. ru/do/The_ Path_of_Purifica tion,Visuddhimag ga,Nanamoli, 1991.pdf http://lirs. ru/do/The_ Path_of_Freedom, Vimuttimagga, N.Ehara,1961. pdf Do you also have Visuddhimagga Pali? Respectfully, Han #102905 From: Ramesh Patil Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 3. rameshat27 *Dear Nina,* >Good to hear from you again, after some time. It is a good idea to >translate Abhidhamma In Daily >Life". Meanwhile I am revising this book, and almost ready. I will >send you off list the revision. *When you will send me the revision? If it is possible then send me as early as possible.* *I want to make ready this transalation at the end of december 2009 so that I can able to publish the book in the new year.* *Also I will ask you so much questions about my doubts..and make sure the translation would be allright..* *with metta* *========* *ramesh* *=======* #102906 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:28 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Cittas arise because of their own conditions, they are beyond control. Sometimes it seems that we ourselves can cause the enjoyment of pleasant objects. However, there have to be the right conditions for the enjoyment of pleasant objects and enjoyment cannot last as long as we wish. We can enjoy pleasant music by turning on the radio, but kamma is the cause of hearing, not a self. It also depends on conditions whether we can afford a radio or not. One may live in poverty and not be able to afford a radio. It is due to kamma if one is born into a poor family and has to live in uncomfortable circumstances. It is due to kamma if one is born into a family which is well-to-do and if one can live in comfort. In order to understand that birth into pleasant surroundings and in unpleasant surroundings is the result of kamma we have to go back to the first moment of a lifespan. There was a citta at the first moment of our life, and this is the rebirth-consciousness. This citta must have a cause and the cause is in the past, it is kamma. Birth is result, we could not select our parents, nor time and place of our birth. The first moment of life is called rebirth-consciousness because there is not only this present life, there were also past lives. It is difficult to understand that kamma of the past produces the birth of a being. We can notice, however, that people are born into different circumstances, with different bodily features and different mental capacities. This does not happen by chance, there must be conditions for such differences. There are different kammas which cause different kinds of birth. In the “Discourse on the Lesser Analysis of Deeds” (Middle Length Sayings III, number 135) we read that Subha asks the Buddha what the cause is of the different results human beings experience from the time of their birth: “Now, good Gotama, what is the cause, what is the reason that lowness and excellence are to be seen among human beings while they are in human form? For, good Gotama, human beings of short lifespan are to be seen and those of long lifespan; those of many and those of few illnesses; those who are ugly, those who are beautiful; those who are of little account, those of great account; those who are poor, those who are wealthy; those who are of lowly families, those of high families; those who are weak in wisdom, those who are full of wisdom.” The Buddha answered Subha: ”Deeds are one’s own, brahman youth, beings are heirs to deeds, deeds are matrix, deeds are kin, deeds are arbiters. Deed divides beings, that is to say by lowness and excellence.” ******* Nina #102907 From: Herman Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different cittas. How they work. Feel free to comment. egberdina Hi connie, 2009/11/29 connie > > > Hi Lukas, Herman > > Herman: I think it is interesting that you think that footage from a camera > that registers 7000 frames per second is about citta. This camera is > actually 100 times faster than human vision. Clearly rupa does not depend on > citta, at best citta is deceiving about what is really happening. > > connie: Citta's speed is immeasurable... I agree with this, but perhaps for different reasons than you :-) Speed is a measurement, a comparison of one thing to another. In the realm of citta, there is no citta to compare another citta with. The concept of speed simply does not apply to citta. > beyond the speed of light/rupa. Perhaps, depending on what you mean, but certainly not faster than light/rupa. > Totally agree that our perceptions are limited and deceptive. > > Cool :-) Cheers Herman #102908 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship nilovg Dear Alex, With IV starts the second stage of tender insight. Some classifications begin here, or they begin with the first principal insight. I shall give now a few quotes from Kh Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. Alex: > Here is brief outline of ñÄ?ṇa that go till maggaphala > > I. Understanding of applying the ear is knowledge of what consists > in the heard (learnt) -- sutamaye ñÄ?ṇaṃ. > > II. Understanding of restraint after hearing is knowledge of what > consists in virtue -- sÄ«lamaye ñÄ?ṇaṃ. > > III. Understanding of concentrating after restraining is knowledge > of what > consists in development of concentration -- samÄ?dhibhÄ?vanÄ?maye > ñÄ?ṇaṃ. > > IV. Understanding of embracing conditions is knowledge of the causal > relationship of phenomena -- dhammaá¹¹±Ä?ṇaṃ. ----------- N: Khun Sujin: The second stage of vipassanÃ¥ ñåna is discerning conditions for nÃ¥ma and rúpa, paccaya-pariggaha-ñåna. When the moments of vipassanÃ¥ ñåna have fallen away, the world appears as it used to appear, as a whole. The person who develops satipaììhÃ¥na clearly knows the difference between the moment of vipassanÃ¥ ñåùa and the moment which is not vipassanÃ¥ ñåùa. When vipassanÃ¥ ñåùa has fallen away, ignorance and doubt about realities can arise again, since these defilements have not been eradicated. When the first stage of insight has been reached there is full comprehension of what has been known, ñåta pariññå. Paññå realizes as they are the characteristics of realities which appear at the moments of vipassanÃ¥ ñåna. Then there is no ignorance and doubt about those realities. The first stage of insight is only a beginning stage that can lead to the following stages of insight which penetrates more and more the characteristics of nÃ¥ma and rúpa. When satipatthÃ¥na continues to be mindful of the realities which appear and investigates their characteristics, there can be more understanding of their conditions. When one object appears at a time, paññå can realize that nÃ¥ma, the element which experiences, arises because of conditions, that it is conditioned by that object. If there were no object appearing, nÃ¥ma could not arise. Thus, whenever there is nÃ¥ma, there must be an object experienced by nÃ¥ma. When one object at a time appears, paññå can understand that the dhammas which arise are dependent on conditions. In this way paññå can see more clearly the nature of anattÃ¥ of all dhammas and thus there will gradually be more detachment from the inclination to take objects for self. When the factors of the eightfold Path, cetasikas included in sankhaarakkhandha, have been developed to a higher degree, they can condition the arising of the second vipassanÃ¥ ñåna. This is paccaya- pariggaha-ñåna which directly understands the dependency on conditions of nÃ¥ma and rúpa at the moment they arise. Thus, there is awareness and direct understanding of the arising of realities such as hearing, sound, pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or thinking. All these dhammas, arising each because of their own conditions, are realized one at a time, as clearly distinct from each other. They are realized as devoid of self. VipassanÃ¥ ñåna clearly knows the characteristics of the realities which naturally appear and it knows them through the mind-door. VipassanÃ¥ ñåna discerns the characteristics of the different objects as clearly distinct from each other and it realizes them as non-self. When vipassanÃ¥ ñåna has fallen away the world appears as it used to appear, as a whole.> (end quote) Nina. #102909 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: conditions through temporal abyss nilovg Dear Alex, Op 29-nov-2009, om 19:21 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > But how can proximity condition function over time gap? When the > citta ceases and there is no more citta for 7 days, what causes the > emergence of the 1st citta after nirodha samapatti? -------- N: Quote from my conditions: In some cases there can be temporary suspension of citta, and then only rúpas arise and fall away. Those who have developed samatha up to the fourth stage of arúpa-jhåna, the “Sphere of Neither Perception Nor Non-Perception “ and who have also realized the stage of enlightenment of the anågåmí, non-returner, and of the arahat, can attain “cessation” nirodha-samåpatti. This is the temporary suspension of citta, cetasikas and mind-produced rúpa. Rúpas produced by kamma, temperature and nutriment, in the case of human beings, and rúpas produced by kamma and temperature, in the case of beings in the Brahma plane, continue to arise. When they emerge from cessation, the first citta which arises is the phala-citta, fruition-consciousness (lokuttara vipåkacitta), which has nibbåna as its object. For the anågåmí it is the phala-citta of the anågåmí and for the arahat it is the phala-citta of the arahat. This citta is conditioned by the preceding citta, the arúpa-jhånacitta of the fourth stage which occurred prior to cessation. Thus, the force of proximity is not destroyed by the temporary suspension of citta. It is the same in the case of rebirth in the asañña-satta plane, the plane where there is only rúpa. When the lifespan in that plane is over and there is rebirth in the sensuous plane, the rebirth- consciousness is conditioned by the dying-consciousness which occurred prior to rebirth in the asañña-satta-plane. Thus, the force of proximity is not destroyed. ******* Nina. #102910 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship szmicio Dear Nina, > N: Khun Sujin: > The second stage of vipassanÃ¥ ñåna is discerning conditions for > nÃ¥ma and rúpa, paccaya-pariggaha-ñåna. > When the moments of vipassanÃ¥ ñåna have fallen away, the world > appears as it used to appear, as a whole. The person who develops > satipaììhÃ¥na clearly knows the difference between the moment of > vipassanÃ¥ ñåùa and the moment which is not vipassanÃ¥ ñåùa. > When vipassanÃ¥ ñåùa has fallen away, ignorance and doubt about > realities can arise again, since these defilements have not been > eradicated. When the first stage of insight has been reached there is > full comprehension of what has been known, ñåta pariññå. Paññå > realizes as they are the characteristics of realities which appear at > the moments of vipassanÃ¥ ñåna. Then there is no ignorance and doubt > about those realities. The first stage of insight is only a beginning > stage that can lead to the following stages of insight which > penetrates more and more the characteristics of nÃ¥ma and rúpa. > When satipatthÃ¥na continues to be mindful of the realities which > appear and investigates their characteristics, there can be more > understanding of their conditions. When one object appears at a time, > paññå can realize that nÃ¥ma, the element which experiences, arises > because of conditions, that it is conditioned by that object. If > there were no object appearing, nÃ¥ma could not arise. Thus, whenever > there is nÃ¥ma, there must be an object experienced by nÃ¥ma. When one > object at a time appears, paññå can understand that the dhammas > which arise are dependent on conditions. In this way paññå can see > more clearly the nature of anattÃ¥ of all dhammas and thus there will > gradually be more detachment from the inclination to take objects for > self. When the factors of the eightfold Path, cetasikas included in > sankhaarakkhandha, have been developed to a higher degree, they can > condition the arising of the second vipassanÃ¥ ñåna. This is paccaya- > pariggaha-ñåna which directly understands the dependency on > conditions of nÃ¥ma and rúpa at the moment they arise. Thus, there is > awareness and direct understanding of the arising of realities such > as hearing, sound, pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or thinking. > All these dhammas, arising each because of their own conditions, are > realized one at a time, as clearly distinct from each other. They are > realized as devoid of self. > VipassanÃ¥ ñåna clearly knows the characteristics of the realities > which naturally appear and it knows them through the mind-door. > VipassanÃ¥ ñåna discerns the characteristics of the different > objects as clearly distinct from each other and it realizes them as > non-self. When vipassanÃ¥ ñåna has fallen away the world appears as > it used to appear, as a whole.> > (end quote) ------------------------------------- L: Fot this reason, sacca ~nana needs to be developed very gradually. sacca ~nana can condition kicca and kata ~nana later on. The sacca ~nana is the suttamaye~nana. kusala thinking/reflection after hearing Dhamma. Wise reflection, even in sacca ~nana level can help us to accumulated more right view. This is the predominant condition to ~nana. Nina, I forget your Conditions now. I have no strengh to read it again. I tried recently I feel dosa to do this. Best wishes Lukas #102911 From: "connie" Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:24 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (316, 10) nichiconn dear friends, following on from the last set**: CSCD 316. < Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:57 am Subject: Without the Walls Cy (7-9) nichiconn dear pt and all, continuing from #102889: 7. The king, the king's sons, the country agent, and the treasurer, died in due course, and, with their retinue, they were reborn in heaven. Those whose hearts had been disaffected were reborn in the hells. And so ninety-two aeons passed by while these two groups went on being reborn respectively from heaven to heaven and from hell to hell. 8. Then in this auspicious aeon, in the time of the Enlightened One Kassapa, those with the disaffected hearts were born among the ghosts. Now when human beings [at that time] gave an almsgiving for their own deceased (ghost) relatives, they dedicated it thus 'Let it for our relatives', and those gained excellence [thereby]. When these ghosts saw that, they approached the Blessed One Kassapa and asked him 'Venerable sir, how can we too gain such excellence?'. The Blessed One replied 'You will not gain it now. [204] But in the future there will be an Enlightened One called Gotama. In that Blessed One's time there will be a king called Bimbisaara. Ninety-two aeons ago he was your relative. When he has given an almsgiving to the Enlightened One, he will dedicate it to you. You will gain it then'. When that was said, it seemed to the ghosts as if they had been told 'You will gain it tomorrow'. 9. Then when one Buddha-interval had passed, our Blessed One appeared in the world, and those three king's sons with their two thousand five hundred men fell (died) from the world of gods and were reborn in a Divine-caste clan in the kingdom of Magadha. In due course they went forth from the house-life with the seers' going forth and became the three matted-hair ascetics of Gayaasiisaa (see Vin i 23). The country agent became king Bimbisaara, and the householder treasurer became the great banker Visaakha whose wife, named Dhammadinnaa, was a banker's daughter (see MA ii 355). And so it was that the whole rest of their following was reborn with the king's retinue too. to be continued, connie #102914 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:31 am Subject: Re: Re; [dsg] Buddhist Books PDF truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thank you very much for giving us the following two books as Dhamma Daana. > > http://lirs. ru/do/The_ Path_of_Purifica tion,Visuddhimag ga,Nanamoli, 1991.pdf > http://lirs. ru/do/The_ Path_of_Freedom, Vimuttimagga, N.Ehara,1961. pdf > > Do you also have Visuddhimagga Pali? > > Respectfully, > Han > Dear Han, all, I have all tipitaka & commentaries in pali. It is part of the program. VsM is there + the commentary to VsM. http://www.tipitaka.org/ http://www.tipitaka.org/search http://www.tipitaka.org/cst/cst4-2008-04-20-beta15.exe It is very convenient to search for key phrases in cst4 With metta, Alex #102915 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stages of Insight. nilovg Dear Alex and Lukas, Op 28-nov-2009, om 20:12 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > V. Understanding of defining past, future and present phenomena, after > generalization, is knowledge of comprehension -- sammasañÄ?ṇana. --------------- > sammasañÄ?ṇana, part 1. Kh Sujin: