#103400 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:58 am Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 3 ashkenn2k Dear all If people would not interprete different colours or “translateâ€? them into shape and form, they would not conceive them as beings, people or things. Therefore, when we see and we are then absorbed in the shape and form, in the outward appearance (nimitta) and the details of things, we should know that this occurs only because colour appears. When colours appear, we think about them, interprete them and “translate “ them into shape and form of different things. When sati arises and is mindful of realities and paññå begins to study and investigate their characteristics, one will begin to understand that the outward appearance and all the details of things, all the different colours, are only what appears through the eyes, nothing else. Then paññå begins to penetrate the characteristics of realities as not a self, not a being, not a person. If sati arises and is aware time and again, one will understand the meaning of the Buddha’s words explaining that, by the development of the understanding of the realities which naturally appear, one will not cling to the outward appearance and the details of things. We read in the “Middle Length Sayingsâ€? (I, no. 27) in the “Lesser Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant’s Footprintâ€? that the Buddha spoke to the brahman Jåùussoùi about the monk’s life. He said about the “restraint of the sensesâ€?: He, possessed of the ariyan body of moral habit, subjectively experiences unsullied well-being. Having seen visible object with the eye, he is not entranced by the general appearance, he is not entranced by the detail. If he dwells with this organ of sight uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil unskilled states of mind, might predominate. So he fares along controlling it; he guards the organ of sight, he comes to have control over the organ of sight.... (The same is said with regard to the other doorways.) (to be continued) cheers Ken O #103401 From: A T Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:07 am Subject: Re: AnapanaSATI Satipatthana truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > The sutta describe different ways of breathing, short and long, First two steps about long/short in/out breath use "pajÄ?nÄ?ti" word. Step 3 and onwards use "sikkhati" pajÄ?nÄ?ti = from (pa +ñÄ? + nÄ?), active present verb = knows clearly. sikkhati = active present verb= learns; trains oneself; practises. Note: One does *NOT* control the length of the breathing. This is not Hindu pranayama practice. One pajÄ?nÄ?ti (pa +ñÄ? + nÄ?) the breath. experience the whole body. But there is fixing of the mind in breathing. When you fixed your mind on an object that is samatha meditation. >K:Insight meditation is about understanding the characteristics and that >is carried out after one attain absorption. Abiding contemplating impermanence on trains in Breathing in/out. "AniccÄ?nupassÄ« assasissÄ?mÄ«/passasissÄ?mī’ti sikkhati, PTS MN 3.83 "‘‘Evaṃ bhÄ?vitÄ? kho, bhikkhave, Ä?nÄ?pÄ?nassati evaṃ bahulÄ«katÄ? cattÄ?ro satipaá¹¹?ne paripÅ«reti." PTS MN 3.84 "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html Anapanasati when properly done DOES lead to fulfillment of 4 satipatthanas. "cattÄ?ro satipaá¹¹?ne paripÅ«reti" > > I will try to give you some write up on the stanza on Ptsm you quoted. Please do. > With metta > Ken O With metta, Alex #103402 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:10 am Subject: Re: "Hand to hand combat with kilesas" scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "...The suttas often talk about arousing superhuman effort, as if one's hair is on fire, and to go into hand-to-hand combat with the kilesas, where on doesn't tolerate arisen kilesa and crushes & obliterates it, even if this means that 'flesh & blood dries up...'. The similes are quite forceful. Of course I do not take it as a Self who does. No. It is a process that occurs in such a way, but it does occur!" Scott: I need only ask you what you do in order to pull this off and your answer will demonstrate the belief in Self. I'm not asking, by the way, so no need to actually tell me what you do in order to pull this off. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #103403 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:16 am Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: #103386 > > > Addendum: I found in my collection an audio CD by ajahn. It is # 17 on Self & Not-Self which include Dhamma Talks: Self-Identity View, Kamma and Not-Self, The Kamma of Self & Not-Self. I shall again review. Again, warm thanks for suggestions. metta (maitri), Chuck #103404 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:21 am Subject: Re: "Hand to hand combat with kilesas" truth_aerator >"scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > >A: "...The suttas often talk about arousing superhuman effort, as >if one's hair is on fire, and to go into hand-to-hand combat with >the kilesas, where on doesn't tolerate arisen kilesa and crushes & >obliterates it, even if this means that 'flesh & blood dries up...'. >The similes are quite forceful. Of course I do not take it as a Self >who does. No. It is a process that occurs in such a way, but it does >occur!" > >Scott: I need only ask you what you do in order to pull this off and >your answer will demonstrate the belief in Self. I'm not asking, by >the way, so no need to actually tell me what you do in order to pull >this off. ;-) > > Sincerely, > > Scott. Dear Scott, All, How do *you* interpret the above teachings on super effort? It does happen! With metta, Alex #103405 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:51 am Subject: Re: "Hand to hand combat with kilesas" scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "How do *you* interpret the above teachings on super effort? It does happen!" Scott: In the same way a rhetorical statement requires no response and a simile is not to be taken literally. Sincerely, Scott. #103406 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:39 pm Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? kenhowardau Hi Chuck, ------- C: > On ajahn Thanissaro, I have read many of his commentaries/translations and listen to many of his Dhamma talks over the years. ------- Perhaps I should have warned you; the posts I referred you to are critical of Thanissaro's take on anatta. So I hope you won't be offended. But please read them anyway, they are very important. Ken H #103407 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:16 pm Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: #103406 Good friend Ken H, Finally found the referenced posts and quickly scanned them. FWIW, I did not always agree with my parents... I did not always agree with my ajahn on hs Dhamma interpretations. [Fortunately for me, he learned English working for the US military during the Viet Nam conflict. He later became a monk. He understood my questionings.] Will return as I have not carefully peruse the posts yet... only a cursory review. I appreciate the following by James [Buddhatrue]: "But, I am also with Howard that I couldn't and wouldn't say just how much this teaching of Thanissaro hurts or corrupts the Dhamma. The teaching of anatta is very difficult to comprehend and is misunderstood by practically everyone who doesn't directly experience it- which includes most of us! ;-))" Again, a sincere "Thank you" for the referenced posts. metta (maitri), Chuck #103408 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? kenhowardau -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > hallo KenH and other dhamma friends, > > Part of todays dhamma discussion was bout the khandhas, -------- Hi Azita, Sounds like you are back in Bangkok. It's your second home! You are very lucky. -------------------- A: > the khandhas being real at this very moment, citta, cetasikas and rupa, arising, performing their function and falling away. -------------------- Yes 'at this very moment' is what it's all about. Right understanding is always of the present arammana. ---------------------------- A: > It became clear to me today how impersonal the khandhas are. For example what Han has said in the above: Understanding being a cetasika, its function is to understand, its not interested in 'trying' to understand - it just does! Same with attachment [lobha] arises, performs its function of attaching and then falls away, its also has no 'personal' interest in being attached it just is - thats its function. Mostly we take it all for 'mine' and then wish it were different, that we werent so attached, or irritable, wish we were more generous, but realities arise, perform their function and fall away, no one can control these realities - but understanding - if it arises, can know them for what they really are: anatta, anicca and dukkha. ---------------------------- Isn't right understanding wonderful! Where would we be without it? Even just a little means a great deal. Ken H #103409 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:02 pm Subject: The Good Disciple... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How to be a Worthy Lay Disciple! The Buddha once explained how: I will tell you the way of life of a householder, who becomes a good disciple. Laying aside all violence, he would not kill a living creature, nor cause to kill, nor allow others to kill. He should deliberately avoid taking anything, which has not been freely given. Neither should he cause to steal, nor allow others to steal. He should not transgress against another's wife. When gone to the audience hall, court or assembly, he should neither speak false himself, nor cause others to speak false, deceive or pretend. He should avoid all untruth. He should also avoid intoxicating drinks and drugs, nor cause to drink, nor allow others to drink or take drugs, since intoxication causes carelessness! Intoxication makes negligent fools commit evil deeds accumulating demerit. He should neither eat food at night, nor wear jewellery, nor use perfume... He should sleep on a low couch or on the ground on a mat. For this they say is the eight-fold fast day observance, declared by the Buddha, who has gone beyond all suffering. Having kept this fast day every fortnight, with a clear mind, rejoicing, he should in the morning share suitable food with the Sangha of Bhikkhus. He should support his mother & father by making honest trade. A vigilant householder living this Noble way of life is reborn among the devas who shines bright... Sn 393-404 <..> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <....> #103410 From: "colette" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:44 pm Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? ksheri3 Hi Ken H., "...are critical of Thanissaro's take on anatta. So I hope you won't be offended. But please read them anyway, ..." colette: "offended"? Sir, "Critical Thought" should not be offensive but INSIGHTFUL, ILLIMUNITATING, OBSERVANT, ETC, and so there should be no offense taken nor "felt". I look forward to reading them! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > Hi Chuck, > > ------- > C: > On ajahn Thanissaro, I have read many of his commentaries/translations and listen to many of his Dhamma talks over the years. > ------- > > Perhaps I should have warned you; the posts I referred you to are critical of Thanissaro's take on anatta. So I hope you won't be offended. But please read them anyway, they are very important. > > Ken H > #103411 From: "colette" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Without the Walls (Cy 38-39), OBSCURATIONS 101, TYRANNY, ... ksheri3 Hi Connie and Howard, This is a two for one reply: connie, with respect to the illusion of weddings and funerals. "celebrations/tributes to clinging/addictions" Naw, the act of "rememberence" in this case seems, to me, more of a celebration of an "experience" which "conditions" the fact of a "clinging" which leads to an actual addiction. Howard: there's an unlimited amount of emotions, emotional aspects, that are generated by weddings and funerals.While "devotion" and "respect" are very key elements the foundational aspect is the concept of "LOVE" in that it has to be given across the board without hesitation and/or discrimination. To reach this point is a tremendous feet to have achieved. I am constantly now, COGNIZING an unlimited amount of negative cittas, negative namarupas, etc, as they rise to the surface and can be dealt with in Yoga Nidra. Without that limitless, AIN SOPH, aspect called LOVE the other aspects are difficult to realize. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Connie (and Colette) - > > In a message dated 12/11/2009 11:20:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > nichicon@... writes: > > dear colette, > my simple thought is that weddings and funerals can both be considered > celebrations of/tributes to clinging/addiction. > ---------------------------------------------------- > How about love in both cases, and honoring also in the latter. > Relative to this list. I think of the marriage of Nina & Lodewijk, Sarah & Jon, > and my wife, Rita, and me as just a few examples that seem clear to me and > for which I know both partners. No doubt there is attachment involved - we > are all yet human, but there is also love, devotion, and respect. > --------------------------------------------------- <...> #103412 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:31 pm Subject: Sutta Anattalakkhana dhammasaro The Great Discourse on Not Self as discussed by Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw. See: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/mahasi-anat/anat00.htm Two excerpts: All teachings or beliefs outside of the Buddha's Dispensation fall under the category of beliefs in a self, attā. They hold to the view that there is such a thing as a soul, a living entity, which actually resides in all living creatures. ... THE BUDDHA'S WORDS: BEGINNING THE SUTTA Rūpaṁ bhikkhave anattā. Rūpañca hidaṁ bhikkhave attā abhavissa nayidam rūpaṁ ābādhāya saṁvatteyya; labbhetha ca rūpe evaṁ me rūpaṁ hotu, evaṁ me rūpaṁ mā ahosīti. "Monks, rūpa, the material body, is not self, soul or living entity." People in general see themselves and others as living entities, each with a soul, self or ego, called in Pāli attā, corresponding with the Sanskrit word ātman. Attā is also known as jīva, life; thus attā conveys the concept of life, soul or living entity. Holding the view that there exists a soul or a living entity in man is known as the misconception or wrong belief in self (attādiṭṭhi). Ordinary worldlings are not free from this wrong belief in self; the only difference from person to person lies in how firmly it is held and how plainly it manifests. The vipassanā meditator who is developing keen insight into the physical and mental processes, and contemplating the fact that there is no self or living entity, is free from that wrong notion of self, but only for the duration of his noting the arising and passing away of corporeality and mentality. The misconception of self is likely to return. In order to remove this misconception of self and make it clear that there is no such thing as soul or living entity in the physical and mental constituents, either of one's own body or in the bodies of others, the Blessed One began the discourse with the statement, "Rūpaṁ bhikkhave anattā : Material form (rūpa) monks, is not self, soul or living entity." End excerpts. oOo Good friends all, I need your help. Have any of you perused this book by the said Venerable? If you have, 1. Do you agree? Why? 2. Do you disagree? Why? Warm thanks for your help. metta (maitri), Chuck Post script: If this post falls outside DSG guidelines, please delete. #103413 From: "colette" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:32 pm Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? Contra- Diction ksheri3 Hi Chuck, Okay, lets attack this problem: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" > > > > Here, "empty" means empty of self. It does not mean empty of "own > > > > being" as some Mahayana texts try to tell us. The eye, for example, is > > > > empty of self, not of eye. > > > > > > > > "UNDIRSTRACTED BY THE FORMELSS: In the Waking state, thought patterns can be troubling. In the Dreaming state, they can form trains of thoughts that seem to drag you around. Howevever, imagine that you could observe your thought patterns when they were not active, when they were in a latent, sleeping form, while you were awake. Then they would not disturb or distract you. This is what happens in Yoga Nidra. The paradox is that while they are not in active form, they are sitll there. This can be frustrating to try to concep;tualize, but this is as close as we can get, to jmust say they are in a formless form." > > > > http://www.swami.com/yoga-nidra.htm colette: major faux pax, the correct address IS: http://www.swamij.com/yoga-nidra.htm pardon my miss direction. ------------------------------ > > > > Admit that things exist without your cognition. > > > > Here, this swami states that these things are "latent" while I say that these things are "DORMENT" as if they were a sleeping moth giving birth to SILK. > > > C: Warm thanks for the quote and reference. However, I have enough of a problem distinquishing between Theravada and Mahayana. Hence, I will not comment on the swami opinions. > colette: I HEAR YA! Distringuishing between the Theravadan and what is/is not acceptable and applied in the Theravadan doctrine is bad enough but then having to categorize the Mahayana from the Theravadan and then have to further subdivide the Mahayana to the Varjayana is one helluva bothersome nuasance that has to be dealt with and transcended. -------------------------------------------------- > FWIW, some years ago, I studied the word, kamma (Skt: karma). What did I learn? I learned many of us use the same word; but, many of us have different definitions for the same word. For example, one would think the Buddhist, Hindu, and Jains would have the same definition of kamma. Nope!!! > colette: that is an ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Transposing words and their definitions is an ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE task. ------------------------------------- > Colette: > > > Latent thoughts and latent samskaras are the same as dorment thoughts and dorment samskaras. They are both there. They are both waiting to become active, which tells the use of words in the paragraph as "latent" opposing "dorment", but using "active" instead of "passive" is a better choice, in my methodology. > > > > So you see, the choice of words actually does have an effect on the outcome of the procedure. > > > > you, in your acceptance of the doctrine, are focusing on a single aspect of the broad meaning of Shunyata. Shunyata applies to everything and cannot be restrained or put inside of a Great Wall which can give the few people riches who hold the meaning BECAUSE THE MEANING CANNOT BE HELD, IT IS VAST AND ALL INCLUSIVE. YOU CANNOT, in your tiny little prison cell of Caste System pick and choose what you want to be included in the meaning of Shunyata. This is an AGGREGATE terminology which cannot be constrained. > > > C: Warm thanks for your opinions. > > Colette: > > > I have complete faith in the Abhidharma and, from what I've seen, in the entire Buddhist system of rationality. No questions arise as to the applicability, HOWEVER, we get into the problems that occur between this conflict ofr PALI and SANSKRIT, and if ya want to add fuel to the fire, then we get into this conflict that exists to transfer the EASTERN PHILOSOPHY/PSYCHOLOGY to the Western PHILOSOPY/PSYCHOLOGY. > > > C: Agree on the first part; disagree on the second part. > colette: ah, we have identified an aspect of each of our seperate consciousnesses. While you may have a lot of experience in using, in understanding, in studying the concepts and words from EAstern traditions and are, therefore, totally at eaze and comfortable with the use and application of the words and concepts whether or not in Eastern or whether or not in WEstern psychology/philosophy. I have trouble with reading the words, then gathering their meanings, then finding that the polar opposite dialects of Pali and Sanskrit are almost confrontational.The differences can be daunting. ----------------------------------------------- > Colette: > > > Major problems arise in the transferance between the East to the West. > > C: Do not agree. > > Colette: > > Aren't we lucky to have Nina willing to translate for us and for others, in this aspect, THANK YOU NINA.. > > C: Agreed > > Colette: > > Now isn't it odd that I quoted a "Swami" who is Hindu and not Buddhist? On the surface it may be odd but it is completely applicable since the Buddha came from a brahman caste in India and transposed his wisdom to the concept of Buddhism. > > C: Meaning no disrespect to you; however, I do not care about the historic Buddha's background in the Indus Valley. BTW, are you sure the historic Buddha was of the Bramin caste (Aryan) and not of the native Indus Valley peoples? > colette: Not possible for me and my practices, at this stage. For me, in my tried and true methodology of study I have had to constantly refer to the nature of where the thought came from and the numerous amount of bijas, seeds (aka POTENTIALS), which sprout up from the different potentials that arise from different FOUNDATIONS upon which the thought was planted within the vessel, the yoni, the body, of the person CLINGING TO, possessing the clinging nature of ATTACHMENT, which is manifested in the limitless potential of each IDEA, each CONCEPT. Maybe that's a fualt of mine that I have to overcome, not being so thorough and bothered but such trivial insignificant realities that contributed to the manifestation of the concept being put forth by the Buddha. Well, not being a well versed student of the Buddha, of his teachings, etc, I have only run into a single source that gave me the sentence which placed the Buddha in a brahman caste, so it is entirely possible that he was not nor is not part of the brahman caste (Aryan) and he may certainly have been born and breed in the common stock of the Indus Valley. I leave that up to my peers and colleagues to inform of me of any of my personal mistakes and inconsistancies. One way or another, HOWEVER, I eventually will get to a point in my study where I focus specifically on the Buddha himself and his backgroung which will show me the path I followed in the past. --------------------------------- > Colette: > > Now, you, the individual, will have to decide weather or not that which is transposed is TANTRA or NOT TRANTRA. > > C: Why? colette: MY MISTAKE, I am heavily involved in the DISCOVERY part of Tantra in the form of Dzogchen and Mahamudra, I'm working the Chakra system, REVELING IN YOGA NIDRA, Turiya, etc, and how they all transpose somewhat easily to esoteric concepts I've previously run into through practices of Kabbalah, and CHAOS MAGIK, Golden Dawn magik, et al. The statement I made strictly concerns the position of maintaining the practices of MEDITATION in a Tantra aspect so as to maintain a form of Samadhi which can be used as a plattuea upon which the "Peak States" of Yoga Nidra and Turiya can be achieved more easily (see A. Maslow's "REligion, Values, and the Peak Experience") ------------------------------------ > > Colette: > > Then you will have to decide what Tantra is and what Tantra is not. > > C: Why? > > Colette: > > Thus you will have to go back to the Buddha's actual foundation to discover these meanings. > > C: Nope!!! I just study the Tipitaka. colette: same problem, you have to be practicing the MEDITATIONS I speak of and have the objectivity to be going after something as difficult as Yoga Nidra and Turiya, etc. ----------------------------- > > > > > Not easy is it? <...> > > C: Perhaps to you. [smiles] colette: hmmmmmm, I believe I've just been "slighted". Shall I ponder upon such a double edged sword? I think not. GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU. toodles, colette #103414 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:02 pm Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? Contra- Diction dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > Okay, lets attack this problem: > .............snip > > > > > > > > Not easy is it? <...> > > > > C: Perhaps to you. [smiles] > > colette: hmmmmmm, I believe I've just been "slighted". Shall I ponder upon such a double edged sword? I think not. > > GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU. > > toodles, > colette > C: I sincerely apologize. I meant no slight. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103415 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:20 pm Subject: Alex Questions nilovg Alex: As I was looking over Pali Dhammasangani, I've found strange things. ------------- Dear Alex, sorry for delays, but I am just back from a trip. I collected your mails to me and will react later on. Nina. #103416 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:46 pm Subject: Realities and Concepts. nilovg Dear Ken O, Grateful you post this. < One recognizes the conventional things, which are in reality different elements of hardness. When one sees, for example, a radio or television one takes it for granted that they are composed of iron, plastic, and other materials. However, in reality the component parts are only different rúpa elements. One may be forgetful of the characteristics of nÃ¥ma dhammas and rúpa dhammas that appear one at a time and then fall away. One remembers the conventional terms of things after seeing what appears through the eyes. > Lodewijk had a question: the cup is still there after a while. How is this to be understood? I tried to explain about naama and ruupa, but perhaps you can add somethins? Nina. #103417 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:53 pm Subject: Mp 3 discussions. nilovg Dear Dinesh and Jai, welcome here. I am glad dinesh likes the discussions. WE like to hear your comments on these, even a few lines. It is very good for further discussions. What especially struck you, Dinesh? Jai, you could order the series Pakinnaka, those are excellent on vipassana (all in Thai). These are also good for discussion. Nina. #103418 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:11 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 6 Good deeds and a wholesome life Not to do evil, to cultivate good, to purify one’s mind,— this is the teaching of the Buddhas. (Dhammapada, verse 183). All religions encourage people to abstain from evil, to perform good deeds and to lead a wholesome life. In which way is Buddhism different from other teachings? What is kusala, wholesome, is kusala, and what is akusala, unwholesome, is akusala, no matter who performs it, no matter which religion he professes. Buddhism, however, is different from other teachings in so far as it explains the source of wholesomeness: the different cittas which perform good deeds. The Buddha explained in detail all the different cittas and their accompanying mental factors and also the conditions for their arising. He helped people to know the characteristic of kusala and of akusala. In that way the cittas which arise in daily life can be investigated and the different degrees of kusala and of akusala can be known by one’s own experience. When we think of good deeds such as giving or helping, we usually have in mind the outward situation, we think of persons who perform deeds. The outward appearance of things, however, can be misleading. It depends on the nature of the citta whether there is the performing of wholesomeness or not. We can only know ourselves the nature of our own citta. It is essential to know when the citta is kusala citta and when it is akusala citta. The performing of what is wholesome comprises not only deeds of generosity but also good moral conduct as well as mental development. It is important to learn more details of the different ways of kusala which can be performed. In the Buddhist teachings the ways of wholesomeness can be classified as threefold, namely as generosity, good moral conduct and mental development. Learning about these ways is in itself a condition for the development of kusala in one’s daily life. ******* Nina. #103419 From: "colette" Date: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:13 pm Subject: "PALMING" the role of the Cheshire Cat? ksheri3 Hi Chuck, > > Not easy is it? <...> > > C: Perhaps to you. [smiles] colette: I recall speaking with a colleague named Bill Heirdick, formerly the SEctetary of the Ordo Templi Orientus (O.T.O.) who was speaking to me about "actually practicing". He was speaking of the way these esoteric moments of "bliss" occur as if they were in an ORBIT and they do not happen all the time but in a cyclical aspect. Personally I love having the card of the CHESHIRE CAT in my repetiore however, it appears that you may have played it before I could play it thus leaving me a bit awkward since that role is no longer an available role which I can draw upon. As I sat a few minutes ago, relaxing and geting ready to call it a night, I began preparing in my usual way to go into a my usual meditative practice for the evening when this conversation I had with Bill Heidrick came to mind. I pondered using the subject line that read something like: "aren't we the crafty ones" but decided I didn't want to possiblu raise the errors that people may have if they refer to the Free and Accepted Mason's definition of the practices as "the craft" since I am practicing an Eastern methodology and finding similarities between my past experiences and the EAstern practices I'm just familiarizing myself in. Glad to have you aboard! Good Night. toodles, colette #103420 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:11 am Subject: Re: "PALMING" the role of the Cheshire Cat? dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: #103419 > > Good friend colette, et al You give me too, too much credit... 1. on the "palming" I had to refer to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palming and found: Palming is a technique for holding or concealing an object... 2. on the Cheshire Cat I had to refer to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire_Cat and found: The Cheshire Cat's grin is reminiscent of the vagaries of human character or of a trickster. 3. on the "craft" I had to refer to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craft and found: Both Freemasonry and Wicca are known as 'The Craft' by their adherents. you shore dew keep dis ole crafty en smilin' "el diablo" Texican gleefully rubbin' my verily sweaty palms together in further un-balanced anticipation... yes, my dear... do sleep tight tonite... as ever... #103421 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:32 am Subject: Dinesh' questions nilovg Dear Dinesh, Dinesh: I’m an absolute beginner of Abhidhamma. Please help me by answering my following question. What is the citta that arises in one’s mind when he/she thinks, “money is everythingâ€Â? (or when he/she thinks, “Colour of that vase is redâ€Â?)? ------ N: I have trouble with these letters but I can guess. What is the citta like that thinks: money is everything? N: There is a lot of ignorance with this citta and also clinging, lobha. He takes it that money is the goal of life. The Buddha taught the real goal in life: more understanding of what is real in the absolute sense. This kind of understanding is very powerful, it can eradicate defilements. D: He thinks the colour of this vase is red. N: He thinks of the concept vase and might take it for real. What is real? When he touches, the reality of hardness may appear through the bodysense. Or when seeing, the reality of visible object appears. When he thinks of a red colour or the red vase, it is only the citta that thinks of a concept. Usually we think with akusala citta. In order to know the truth understanding has to be developed of each reality separately as it appears through one doorway at a time. What do you think of this? Nina. #103422 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:58 am Subject: Dhammasangani nilovg Dear Alex, I have some trouble with your diacriticals. Usually you are able to bring them even in an email and I am wondering how you do it. --------- A: As I was looking over Pali Dhammasangani, I've found strange things. 365. Katame dhammÄ akusalÄ? Example: akusalaṃ cittaṃ with somanassasahagataṃ with diá¹ á¹ higatasampayuttaṃ. How can moho arise with somanassasahagataṃ in one citta? ------- N: Take lobhamuulacitta, this is accompanied by ignorance. It can be associated with happy feeling or indifferent feeling. -------- A: How can moho arise with samatho or samÄdhindriyaṃ in one citta? -------- N: It is ekaggataa cetasika os samaadhi. This cetasika arises with each citta. The Co, the Expositor (p. 333) gives as example: ------- A: How can moho arise with micchadi.t.thi in one citta? ------- N: Moha accompanies each akusala citta and thus also the citta with wrong view. Moha is ignorance of realities and di.t.thi has wrong view about them. Different functions. Nina. #103423 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:07 am Subject: Re: Dhammasangani ptaus1 Dear Nina, If you are having trouble with the letters and diacritics not showing properly, what usually works on my computer is to check the character encoding - it should be set to Unicode, and then the Pali letters Alex is using should work properly. Character encoding is usually in the "View" menu option of the browser. For example, when I opened Alex's post - the character encoding was Western and it didn't look right, but when I changed it to Unicode, all the letters were fine. Hope this helps Best wishes pt > Dear Alex, > I have some trouble with your diacriticals. Usually you are able to > bring them even in an email and I am wondering how you do it. > --------- #103425 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:28 am Subject: Re: "Hand to hand combat with kilesas" scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "How do *you* interpret the above teachings on super effort?..." Scott: Atthasaalinii p. 192: "In the exposition of the 'faculty of energy' the word 'mental' is said to show that energy is always mental. 'Bhikkhus, that which is bodily energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom; that which is mental energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom. Thus energy is outlined,' (SN v. 111). Thus in such Suttas, even though this energy may be said to be bodily from its arising in one walking to and fro, etc., yet it is not so called as the term 'body-consciousness.' Verily there is only mental energy..." Sincerely, Scott. #103426 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Hand to hand combat with kilesas" sarahprocter... Dear Alex, (Scott & all),Dan* --- On Mon, 14/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >A: "...The suttas often talk about arousing superhuman effort, as >if one's hair is on fire, and to go into hand-to-hand combat with >the kilesas, where on doesn't tolerate arisen kilesa and crushes & >obliterates it, even if this means that 'flesh & blood dries up...'. >The similes are quite forceful. Of course I do not take it as a Self >who does. No. It is a process that occurs in such a way, but it does >occur!" ... S: As 'an aside', if you haven't read some of Dan's 'classics', here are a few examples on 'effort' which you may enjoy/find useful to reflect on. (Lots more under 'effort' in U.P. of course:-)) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13176 >** Dan: These are certainly to be developed, with the utmost urgency and total effort. However, they must be developed in the context of the eightfold path, central to which is right view (4NT); otherwise, the development doesn't go in the right direction, doesn't lead to liberation. As an example, consider effort/energy/endeavour which is one of the components of each: the right exertions, the bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path. We read from the Dhammasangani (376): Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, wrong effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." Wrong effort?! Everything sounded pretty good up to that point! This is a description of the viriya cetasika arising with lobha-mula- cittani. It is interesting to read how it differs from the viriya cetasika arising with the sense-sphere kusala cittas: [Dhs. 13] "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor? That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, right effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." The only difference is the word "right" in the second paragraph contrasting with the "wrong" of the first. It's fine and dandy to toss around lists of the five this's and the four that's, but it is critical to be able to discern clearly when they are "right" or "wrong" as they arise. This hinges on development of discernment and understanding. Is this done via ritual? I don't think so.**< http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20770 Great effort is not necessarily beneficial: "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor? [Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti?]" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, wrong effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." Dhammasangani (376) ["That time" is the time when lobha (greed, lust, craving) arises.] Also: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15564 Metta Sarah *p.s Dan, I'm also copying this to you in the hope it may encourage you to drop by with another classic or two! Best wishes to Lisa too. ======= #103427 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammasangani sarahprocter... Dear Alex, Let me also add a little from old messages (as for viriya): > A: How can moho arise with samatho or samaadhindriyaa > in one citta? > -------- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/80580 >S: A few more examples (From C.Rhys Davids’ transl of Dhammasangani): *** Part 1 ***Good*** States of Consciousness[11] what on that occasion is ... self-collectedness (cittass' ekaggataa)? [Cy: 'a name for concentration (samaadhi)'] The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on that occasion is the absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet (samatho), the faculty and the power of concentration, right concentration – this is the self-collectedness that there then is. ======= Part 11 ***Bad*** States of Consciousness ... *……self-collectedness ((cittass' ekaggataa)? Answer as in [11] (above), substituting 'wrong concentration' for 'right concentration'. In full from Kline's translation (Cittuppaada Ka.n.da, p. 197), it reads: "375 What at that time is one-pointedness of mind(cittassekaggataa)? That which at that time is stability of mind (cittassa .thiti) , steadfastness of mind (sa.n.thiti), absorbed steadfastness of mind(ava.t.thiti), unshakableness (avisaahaaro), non-distraction (avikkhepo), imperturbability(avisaaha.tamaanasataa), tranquillity of mind (samatho), faculty of concentration (samaadhindriya.m), power of concentration (samaadhibala.m), ***wrong*** concentration (micchaasamaadhi) - this at that time is one-pointedness of mind (cittassekaggataa)." ... Sarah: In other words, concentration or one-pointedness (citassekaggataa) arises with akusala as well as kusala cittas. It has all the same characteristics, the only difference in the definition here being that it is *wrong* in this case. When concentration is apparent, it is nearly always *wrong* concentration. It is only through the development of right understanding and awareness that right concentration will develop, never by 'focussing', 'concentrating' or by trying to avoid distractions. [see also: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41331 A few more examples (From C.Rhys Davids’ transl of Dhammasangani)] ..... Metta Sarah ====== #103428 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammasangani ashkenn2k Dear Alex > A: How can moho arise with micchadi.t.thi in one citta? > ------- > N: Moha accompanies each akusala citta and thus also the citta with > wrong view. Moha is ignorance of realities and di.t.thi has wrong > view about them. Different functions. KO: A clearer layman intepretation why moha must always follow aksuala because it blinds us from the truth and the cause of suffering in each arisen state. Due to the non-interruption of arising citta, one after another, one could not see the nature of dhamma in the three characteristics. One concieve there is permanance in impernance etc Cheers Ken O #103429 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: technical problems, to pt. nilovg Dear pt, Op 14-dec-2009, om 13:07 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > it should be set to Unicode ------ N: This is not in my Lettertypes. How to install it, I have Mac OS X. another problem: I can read a pdf doc. but I cannot copy or quote from it. Thanks a lot, Nina. #103430 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Realities and Concepts. ashkenn2k Dear Nina . Lodewijk had a question: the cup is still there after a while. How is >this to be understood? >I tried to explain about naama and ruupa, but perhaps you can add >somethins? >Nina. KO: A simple question but hard to explain. I try to. Sarah is always creative, she always got good ideas on her sleeve. I observed that some people are more receptive at nama while others are more receptive of rupa. It depends on the person inclination. Maybe you could ask him what he is more aware of nama or rupa. I am more aware of rupa as it is easier to observe. I admire your courage to teach Lodewijk dhamma as I find it difficult to teach my wife except for simple things like kamma for a better life in next rebirth. If the cup is accidentally tip over, and broken to pieces, will the cup still a cup? The visible object would be many pieces of broken porcelain, no more cup. Cup is abitrary, conditioned by our upbringing and societal values, we put a label it as a cup. Conditioned by many past lives habit, we take concept which is cup as real. A cup which is a concept is just a collection of visible object conceptualise by the mind just like the picture of a completed jig saw puzzle We could be attached to a cup because of sentimental value or its monetary value due to its antiquity etc. But if the cup is broken into pieces, where is the value. We place values or like or dislike on concepts. This habit is hard to break. Just like me its difficult to be mindful of a beautiful concept like a beautiful lady as a visible object. It takes time to understand that there is no being in this visible object. When there is no being in an object, craving would not arise because there is nothing to gain from this object. Just like, there is nothing to drink from an empty coke can drink. there is nothing to obtain from it, there is no craving, there is no feeling of loss if it disappear. This empty coke can drink (or a cup) is like a visible object that is empty of a being or self. Most of our time we crave and cling over concepts. That is why AS is correct to say it is just nama and rupa. It take me some time to understand her statements of not thinking, not labelling and just seeing, just nama and rupa and the understanding of their distinct characteritistic. IMHO, it is our conditioning to concepts that we go round and round in the cycle of birth and death. We take pleasure in our gains of concept like wealth, beautiful things, youth and displeasure over their loss. Personally I felt breaking down of concept by understanding of nama and rupa is the first step in the development of right view. Sorry if I digress too much. Cheers Ken O #103431 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thank you for your reply. Regarding: S: "...What I understand her to mean is that now it seems as if we see and hear and experience through the senses all the time or for long periods of time. For example, we think we're experiencing light most of the day. In fact, the world is only light at the brief moments when visible objects is experienced. The rest of the time, there's no light at all. The same applies to sound or with regard to tangible objects. We may think that painful (bodily) feelings last a long time, when really the painful feeling is just a very, very brief moment of vipaka at the moment of experiencing a tangible object." Scott: So, this is experience prior to the first vipassanaa-~naa.na, when it seems as if there is light or sound or painful (bodily) feelings lasting a long time. S: "In other words, we're very influenced by sense objects and it seems that they're being experienced most of the time. In fact, as we know, there is just one sense door process of cittas followed by many, many mind-door processes of cittas. When there is more understanding of different namas and rupas, the dhammas experienced through the mind-door are revealed. At the first stage of insight, these namas and rupas are clearly distinguished (in the mind-door) and the sense-door (processes) no longer cover up the mind-door (processes)." Scott: In other words, since pa~n~naa distinguishes dhammas through the mind door, it is the fact of a mind-door *after* a sense-door that is part of the experience. The gap or darkness or silence between sense-door process and mind-door process becomes apparent as a dhamma is experienced and distinguished in the mind-door. Is the experience of the distinction between sense-door and mind-door an inherent aspect of an experience of the distinction between naama and ruupa? Sincerely, Scott. #103432 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AnapanaSATI Satipatthana ashkenn2k Dear Alex Yes I do know that it is not control of breathing. But when you do breathing meditation you fixed it on the breathing as an object, that is samantha meditation. During that part, there is no understanding of the characterisitc of the aggregates. Even if one clearly knows the breathing, as long as the mind does not bend to understand anatta, there is no development to enlightment. Comtemplating impermenance, I breath in which is the later part, is the about insight meditation, no longer samantha. There is no development of panna during jhana which is samantha, one must emerge out of jhana to comtemplate on impermance. That is using jhana as the basis of development to reach insight. But the development of jhana, one must withdraw from sensual pleasure. That requires panna. Even great ascetics before Buddha, must understand the unsatisfactory of the sensual pleasure before they could withdraw from sensual pleasure. However they could not attain enlightment because they do not understand anatta. they only understand anicca and dukkha as it is visible. They are still attached to birth of the planes of rupa and arupa Insight could be practise by understanding anatta through suttas explaining proper attention towards a sense object. Understanding of anatta does not require jhanas, it could be developed in moments of our lives by giving proper attention to our senses. We could develop them as long as we are awake and not just during meditation. Dont waste such valuable time out of meditation. It is like a saying about one only focus on the tree but did not see the forest. Cheers Ken O #103433 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door ashkenn2k Dear Scott >Scott: In other words, since pa~n~naa distinguishes dhammas through the mind door, it is the fact of a mind-door *after* a sense-door that is part of the experience. The gap or darkness or silence between sense-door process and mind-door process becomes apparent as a dhamma is experienced and distinguished in the mind-door. Is the experience of the distinction between sense-door and mind-door an inherent aspect of an experience of the distinction between naama and ruupa? KO: No, because the gap is bhavanga cittas. When an object is through the five senses door, the object is clearly understand during the sense door javana process. Panna can arise in a sense door process. It is only through the mind door then the sense door object becomes more apparent as it went through another javana process. The distinguish between mind door and sense door is only through the development of panna. Panna would know the distinction. Cheers Ken O #103437 From: A T Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:23 am Subject: Re: AnapanaSATI Satipatthana truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, Thank you very much for your email. Few things: When I do anapanasati I practice not to control things but be aware of satipatthana happening NOW. To want something is clinging. Wanting something NOT to happen is (often) aversion. Not knowing what is going on, is delusion. Don't wait for the future breath and don't hold back clinging to the past breath. No expectations! Breath is something that NATURALLY occurs. Normal people ALWAYS breath, but they are not always mindful. No need to add anything, normally we always breath, it is natural. It is done to develop the awareness of the present moment with breath being anchor. The breath is actually a secondary thing. A more important thing is to watch the mind that arises and ceases with every breath. The breath is great example of impermanence, including the impermanence of the OBSERVING citta. With metta, Alex #103438 From: A T Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:33 am Subject: Re: "Hand to hand combat" with kilesas truth_aerator Dear Scott, all, > "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "How do *you* interpret the above teachings on super effort?..." > > Scott: Atthasaalinii p. 192: > > "In the exposition of the 'faculty of energy' the word 'mental' is said to show that energy is always mental. 'Bhikkhus, that which is bodily energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom; that which is mental energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom. Thus energy is outlined,' (SN v. 111). Thus in such Suttas, even though this energy may be said to be bodily from its arising in one walking to and fro, etc., yet it is not so called as the term 'body-consciousness.' Verily there is only mental energy..." > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > How does that answers my question? Does viriya, chando, adhimokkho arise or not? Did the things that Buddha have said, conventionally happen? Is all effort, "wrong" effort? If so why isn't viriya, chando, adhimokkho always unwholesome factors? I agree that one can approach same thing with or without Self view. Self view is wrong, but it doesn't mean that ALL actions are wrong or that they are done with delusional Self view/ With metta, Alex #103439 From: A T Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:29 am Subject: re: Dhammasangani truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > I have some trouble with your diacriticals. Usually you are able to > bring them even in an email and I am wondering how you do it. > --------- > A: As I was looking over Pali Dhammasangani, I've found strange things. > 365. Katame dhammÄ? akusalÄ?? > > Example: akusalÄ? cittaṃ with somanassasahagataṃ with > Diá¹¹. > > How can moho arise with somanassasahagataṃ in one citta? > > ------- > N: Take lobhamuulacitta, this is accompanied by ignorance. Can lobhamulacitta have moha rooted citta simultaneously? Only that way can there be somanassasahagataṃ. > -------- > A: How can moho arise with samatho or samÄdhindriyaṃ in one citta? > -------- > N: It is ekaggataa cetasika or samaadhi. This cetasika arises with > each citta. The Co, the Expositor (p. 333) gives as example: 'there is calm', etc., calm is due to the suppression of >distraction in other objects. It lifts or supports the mind in the >occurrence of immorality--this is 'support'. 'Non-distraction' means >it is not distracted.> > ------- Is samatho and ekaggata same or different? While ekaggata cetasika is present in all citta. As I understand it, samÄ?dhi is not, especially if it is citta with restlessness. Thank you very much for your replies, With metta, Alex #103440 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:07 am Subject: Re: "Hand to hand combat with kilesas" truth_aerator Dear Scott, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "How do *you* interpret the above teachings on super effort?..." > > Scott: Atthasaalinii p. 192: > > "In the exposition of the 'faculty of energy' the word 'mental' is said to show that energy is always mental. 'Bhikkhus, that which is bodily energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom; that which is mental energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom. Thus energy is outlined,' (SN v. 111). Thus in such Suttas, even though this energy may be said to be bodily from its arising in one walking to and fro, etc., yet it is not so called as the term 'body-consciousness.' Verily there is only mental energy..." > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > How does that answers my question? Does viriya, chando, adhimokkho arise or not? With metta, Alex #103441 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door scottduncan2 Dear Ken O., Thank you. Regarding: KO: "No, because the gap is bhavanga cittas. When an object is through the five senses door, the object is clearly understand during the sense door javana process. Panna can arise in a sense door process. It is only through the mind door then the sense door object becomes more apparent as it went through another javana process. The distinguish between mind door and sense door is only through the development of panna. Panna would know the distinction." Scott: Yes, this makes sense. I understand that, technically at any rate, bhavanga citta *is* the mind-door in the sense that the procession of bhavanga is interrupted by the impinging object. I think that naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naa.na is developed pa~n~naa knowing the distinction between naama and ruupa. I think that this is a mind-door process. Do you think that the ability of pa~n~naa to know the distinction between sense-door and mind-door is *separate* from the process (if that it is) of pa~n~naa arising in naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naa.na? I'm considering the aspect of this particular question that relates to the fact that the mind-door is somehow revealed at at naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naa.na. Sincerely, Scott. #103442 From: A T Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:42 am Subject: Dhammasangani (samadhi) truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all --- sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alex, > ... > Sarah: In other words, concentration or one-pointedness (citassekaggataa) > arises with akusala as well as kusala cittas. It has all the same > characteristics, the only difference in the definition here being that it > is *wrong* in this case. > > When concentration is apparent, it is nearly always *wrong* concentration. It is only through the development of right understanding and awareness > that right concentration will develop, never by 'focussing', > 'concentrating' or by trying to avoid distractions. > Exactly, Sarah. Concentration can be wrong concentration, and it can be right concentration. What makes it "Right" concentration is the presence of wisdom. I have do not this. In fact I do stress the importance of having wisdom. I hope that I have emphasized this point in my posts on Meditation. Of course one does NOT use "brute" force to reach one-pointedness. One applies WISDOM. In different levels of JhÄ?na different saá¹…khÄ?ras cease. What conditions saá¹…khÄ?ra (in DO formula) is avijjÄ?. Deal with the causes, and avijjÄ? is the root cause. With metta, Alex #103443 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:01 am Subject: Re: "Hand to hand combat" with kilesas scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: Atthasaalinii p. 192: "In the exposition of the 'faculty of energy' the word 'mental' is said to show that energy is always mental. 'Bhikkhus, that which is bodily energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom; that which is mental energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom. Thus energy is outlined,' (SN v. 111). Thus in such Suttas, even though this energy may be said to be bodily from its arising in one walking to and fro, etc., yet it is not so called as the term 'body-consciousness.' Verily there is only mental energy..." A: "How does that answers my question? Does viriya, chando, adhimokkho arise or not?...Is all effort, 'wrong' effort? If so why isn't viriya, chando, adhimokkho always unwholesome factors?..." Scott: '...there is only mental energy.' You must come to terms with this. No need to think of valiant warriors because these are just thoughts about a person. Postures, working harder, trying more, doing a lot - all irrelevant. '...there is only mental energy.' Try to make sense of this first, Alex. There is only mental energy. Sincerely, Scott. #103444 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:18 am Subject: Re: "Hand to hand combat" with kilesas truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: #103443 > > Dear Scott, all, Of course in this sense there is only mental energy. But it is! It requires mental energy and wisdom to be able to deal with defilements. Defilements are strong, deeply rooted, well armed and strongly fortified. They will not go down easily with a fight. Ultimately there is a need for a full scale assault on the fortress of ignorance using all possible reserves with wise tactics and strategies. With metta, Alex #103445 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:29 am Subject: Re: "Hand to hand combat" with kilesas scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: Atthasaalinii p. 192: "In the exposition of the 'faculty of energy' the word 'mental' is said to show that energy is always mental. 'Bhikkhus, that which is bodily energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom; that which is mental energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom. Thus energy is outlined,' (SN v. 111). Thus in such Suttas, even though this energy may be said to be bodily from its arising in one walking to and fro, etc., yet it is not so called as the term 'body-consciousness.' Verily there is only mental energy..." A: "Of course in this sense there is only mental energy..." Scott: No, not 'in this sense.' That's fudging for Self. You seek a loop-hole. There is only mental energy. In all senses of the phrase. Sincerely, Scott. #103446 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:43 am Subject: Re: "Hand to hand combat" with kilesas truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: #103445 > Dear Scott, all, But mental energy *is*. And it does cause certain material (bodily) actions. With metta, Alex #103447 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:56 am Subject: Re: "Hand to hand combat" with kilesas scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: Atthasaalinii p. 192: "In the exposition of the 'faculty of energy' the word 'mental' is said to show that energy is always mental. 'Bhikkhus, that which is bodily energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom; that which is mental energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom. Thus energy is outlined,' (SN v. 111). Thus in such Suttas, even though this energy may be said to be bodily from its arising in one walking to and fro, etc., yet it is not so called as the term 'body-consciousness.' Verily there is only mental energy..." A: "...And it does cause certain material (bodily) actions." Scott: No it doesn't. It is an erroneous connection you are making. You are thinking of some made-up concept you call 'energy' which you imagine is what you have and can apply to make your body practice - practice really super hard and energetically so you can feel all, like, righteously worn-out or some such. I'd like to bow out of the discussion if I may, Alex. Last point to you, if you wish. Sincerely, Scott. #103448 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:59 am Subject: Re: "PALMING" the role of the Cheshire Cat? ksheri3 Hi Chuck, Yes sir, I love it. You've gotta good technique goin' but who am I to speak of mimiographs, dittos, copies, thanks for you humor. > Good friend colette, et al > > You give me too, too much credit... colette: credit seems to be not what I gave you since you have taken it upon yourself to enter into the EOD school of thought (EOD = Eplosive Ordinance Disposal) and you seem to be doing your homework by checking into the smallest of details which could EXPLODE, DETONATE, into a full blown TREE THAT BEARS FRUIT, much like a bija does. I am honored by your dillegence and your choice of paths. As for "Palming", I was indeed refering to the act of "palming" in the gambling sense of the word where a person who intends of "cheating" as their means to achieve VICTORY. After I had made a name for myself in San Diego as a "hustler" in the game of "pool" and as a "Communications and Intelligence Specialist" for the USNavy, I found myself near Reno NV. to "practice" with the entire CARRIER AIR GROUP aka CAG before going onto the flight deck of an aircraft carrier and performing a task. While in Fallen NV, I found that my reputation had preceded me, possibly, and for some unknown reason the "pit boss" of a casino was watching me and found that I was "potentially" "COUNTING CARDS" which would have explained the cash situation I was in at the time being only 19 or 20 years old and libel to arrest for gambling, winning, at the black jack tables, and not being old enough to actually gamble. Yes, so, you are correct that I was applying the act of palming in terms of a UTILITARIAN psychology or a ZEN psychology, through the act of corrupting a corrupt game. YOU DO ME GREAT HONOR to have picked up, AS WELL, on the aspects of the term "the craft" as being NOT ONLY THOSE BARNEY RUBBLE AND FRED FLINSTONE TYPES IN THE FREE & ACCEPTED MASONS but also being an actuality in WICCA. VERY GOOD EXPLORATION AND DISCOVERY! ------------------------------ Now we get to this song I ponder, hypthosize, that you are dealing with and that we are on the same page together i.e. THE DEW DROP INN. This will have to wait a few minutes til I get back to the computer. toodles, colette > > 1. on the "palming" I had to refer to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palming > > and found: Palming is a technique for holding or concealing an object... > > 2. on the Cheshire Cat I had to refer to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire_Cat > > and found: The Cheshire Cat's grin is reminiscent of the vagaries of human character or of a trickster. > > 3. on the "craft" I had to refer to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craft > > and found: Both Freemasonry and Wicca are known as 'The Craft' by their adherents. > > you shore dew keep dis ole crafty en smilin' "el diablo" Texican gleefully rubbin' my verily sweaty palms together in further un-balanced anticipation... > > yes, my dear... do sleep tight tonite... as ever... > #103449 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:43 am Subject: PROPOSITION: "I'm an undercover agent for the FBI" ksheri3 Chuck, I'm playing off of your play since we are both enjoying this experience together. "But I just couldn't resist chancin' 'em all just once around the parkin' lot" Where is "GREEN TEETH" since, according to the script, I've gotta reach out and kick him "rigth in the knee", don't I? Alas, shades of the DEW DROP INN. My problem, here, right now, is this subject line speaking of MIND DOOR. the entire CONCEPT of a door boggles me since it is ritualistic behavior and dogma that the prostitute or bride, after being sold to a male in the traffiking of human bodies through the institution of MARRIAGE, that the "bride" is carried over the "threshold" of the door. All doors have to have a THRESHHOLD, don't they? All "portals" have to have a THRESHHOLD, don't they? The problem begins to take root in the fact that to subscribe to this concept of a "door" being present at any stage or point of consciousness is a Miss Leading and Miss Directing concept to grasp at. It's exactly like the same problem this "swami" has in applying terminology applying to "chakras" in terms of the Anahata or "heart" Chakra. Neophytes would "foundationalize" their mind on the necessity of a Crown Chakra above the head which symbolizes the unification of the Shiva/Shakti, Yin/Yang, etc, forces into a singularity, HOWEVER, upon deeper study in the actuality of the practices of YOGA, we find that the Heart Chakra or Anahata Chakra is the point of "emination" from which all things are founded upon. Entering the doorway is merely a step in the process. Taking that proverbial "first step" is merely the begining point of a "concept" and the ending point of another "concept", NO? Lets not get too deep after I've had such a magnificiently great Sunday with one of my old friends and away from the monotony that I endure throughout the rest of existance. Thank you Nina. toodles, colette #103450 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 1. ksheri3 Hi Nina, Great observation. "... Buddhism, however, is > different from other teachings in so far as it explains the source of > wholesomeness: the different cittas which perform good deeds. ..." colette: allow my ignorance to shine. While you, Nina, have given us this copy of past dogma in a Buddhist library, I tend to see Buddhism are far more than such a simple and Eastern terminology. Take myself, for instance, I failed "Sunday School" while I was in grade school, this is about late 1968-1973 or 74, this is Chantilly VA, 13715 Smallwood Ct., I got, in bold RED letters at the tops of my papers, "F", systematically or is it religously. <...> Lets take the concept and reality of a FOUNDATION. In the case of Buddhism are we to suggest that Buddhism represents the physical concrete which we all see, which we all have contact with, which we all cognize, or are we to suggest that Buddhism represents the RE-BAR, the RE-INFORCEMENTS, that hold the structure together? For instance, here, we all witness the deterioration of concrete in the forms of roads, expressways, streets, sidewalks, and FOUNDATIONS. What we do not see is the steel rebar that is placed inside of the liquid concrete when the concrete is positioned to "set". Now, if Buddhism is the Re-Bar that holds and enforces the concrete together during the expectant lifespan of the concrete, THEN, we are given a far deeper view and position (pair of shoes) from which to ascertain, absorb, enjoy, the process which is BUDDHISM. Now I've opened a new can of worms since I've suggested that Buddhism is equal to a RUPA or man made object. Yes, I sure hope you can see the can of worms that I've opened here. Although, that is not my intent and I do not care to distract my little available time diasecting this OFF RAMP from the expressway that I'm traveling, I admit that it does exist and it did happen. I'd like to thank you, for this VIPISSANA (insight) which I can now be assured to find a "fruitful" RESULTANT PHENOMENA when I finally get the chance to explore your position. toodels, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Chapter 6 > > Good deeds and a wholesome life > > > > Not to do evil, to cultivate good, to purify one's mind,� > this is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > (Dhammapada, verse 183). <....> #103451 From: Vince Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:11 pm Subject: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Are citta, naama and rupa substantial realities? Or are they only names arising because a -self?. How do you understand the final nature of these things according K.Sujin? best, #103452 From: "Icaro" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 1. icarofranca Hi Colette! > I got, in bold RED letters at the tops of my papers, "F", >systematically or is it religously. Well...baaad for you to be under Mr. Crocker´s rule! ^_^ But don´t worry, dear Colette! If you won´t find a Fairy Oddfather here, at least good discussions about very interesting themes aren´t like an old Panda - near to extinction! > In the case of Buddhism are we to suggest that Buddhism represents the physical concrete which we all see, which we all have contact with, which we all cognize, or are we to suggest that Buddhism represents the RE-BAR, the RE-INFORCEMENTS, that hold the structure together? Colette, I have as a personal opinion that all Buddha´s stress about the concrete reality to be assimilated by our senses are only a stratagem to pull out our mind of a suffering frame. If you consider concrete things as concrete things, not as a reference to another set of idealistic concepts, you will be at a better position to know what really exists, if it exists - a painful suprise in 99,9% cases. All is suffering, all is pain, all is deceit...only on extinguishing desire the end of suffering can be reached up by who may be concerned about it. Mettaya Ícaro #103453 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:33 pm Subject: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) dhammasaro The Anapanasati Sutta (A Practical Guide in Mindfulness of Breathing and Tranquil Wisdom Meditation) as discussed by Venerable U Vimalaramsi. See: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/anpnst-vim/part0.htm Four excerpts: The second right kind of strivings teaches one to abandon heavy emotional states like anger, sadness, jealousy, anxiety, stress, depression, fear, etc., and replace them with a smiling mind which relaxes away even the subtlest tension. This is the wholesome state of joyful interest and enthusiasm. By cultivating such a smiling mind, one overcomes the ego-identification with these states as being "Mine". A good sense of humor about oneself is a skillful tool to develop when trodding the spiritual path. ... The fourth right kind of striving refers to a continuous practice, not only during the formal practice of meditation but also during the daily activities. At one time the author was approached by some students asking: "How can one attain Nibbana by practicing smiling and having joyful interest?" They thought that they have made a very profound statement because they thought Nibbana is attained by looking at pain and suffering all of the time. These students are not practicing how to be light and happy as taught by the Lord Buddha. The author replied them by asking some cross questions: "How can you get to Nibbana without smiling and having joyful interest in your mind? Isn't joy one of the enlightenment factors? Didn't the Lord Buddha said 'We are the Happy Ones?'" ... One observes that the Four Foundations of Mindfulness is in this sutta and they are fulfilled through the practice of jhana or tranquil and wise meditative states of mind. This is decidedly different from the current theory that one can't attain the Four Foundations of Mindfulness while experiencing jhanas [meditative stages]. The Lord Buddha only taught one kind of meditation and that is samatha or tranquility or one can say he taught samadhi -- tranquil 'wisdom meditation. ... Any resistance, trying to control, wishing it away with thoughts, or fighting that feeling in any way, only causes more suffering to arise. Actually whenever a feeling arises, one opens the mind ... lets go of the want to control ... lovingly-accepts the fact that this feeling is there, and allows it to be there by itself. Don't Resist Or Push. Soften... This DROPS is the key to having an accepting and open mind which leads to the development of equanimity. Any slightest resistance or tightness means that there is some ego-identification still attached to it. End excerpts. oOo Good friends all, I need your help. Have any of you perused this book by the said Venerable? If you have, 1. Do you agree? Why? 2. Do you disagree? Why? Warm thanks for your help. metta (maitri), Chuck Post script: If this post falls outside DSG guidelines, please delete. #103454 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:32 pm Subject: Re: emptiness of dhammas kenhowardau Hi Vince, ------- V: > Are citta, naama and rupa substantial realities? Or are they only > names arising because a -self?. > > How do you understand the final nature of these things according K.Sujin? ------- They are paramattha dhammas - absolute realities. They are the only things that ultimately exist. All else is ultimately illusory. They have their own inherent characteristics, and so they could be called substantial in that regard. However, they have the anatta (no-self) characteristic and so they could be called insubstantial in that regard. K Sujin just shows us what is already in the Tipitaka and the ancient commentaries, so none of this is really "according to" her. :-) Ken H #103455 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:36 pm Subject: Re: PROPOSITION: "I'm an undercover agent for the FBI" dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Chuck, I'm playing off of your play since we are both enjoying this experience together. "But I just couldn't resist chancin' 'em all just once around the parkin' lot" > > Where is "GREEN TEETH" since, according to the script, I've gotta reach out and kick him "rigth in the knee", don't I? C: Well, as my namesake, Charlie, also said, "When I got home I stayed alone... and, checked behind each door... cuz I'm still in Saigon... still in Saigon... I am still in Saigon in my mind..." ........................ And, as ole Willie Nelson is reported to say, "We create our own unhappiness. The purpose of suffering is to help us understand we are the ones who cause it." ............................. And, finally, gude ole Murray iterated in part, "One night in Bangkok and the tough guys tumble... can't be too careful with your company... I can feel the devil walking next to me..." http://www.jango.com/music/Murray+Head?l=0 > colette: > Alas, shades of the DEW DROP INN. > C: Ahem, I prefer the non-shades at John T. Floore Country Store in Helotes, Texas... http://www.liveatfloores.com/ and, ifen ah mae, Luckenbach, Texas: http://www.luckenbachtexas.com/ en der purty wurds, en pard: "Between Hank Williams pain songs and Jerry Jeff's train songs and blue eyes cryin' in the rain out in Luckenbach Texas ain't nobody feelin' no pain..." http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/jennings-waylon/luckenbach-texas-13118.html colette: > My problem, here, right now, is... ...snip > toodles, > colette > as ever, el diablo (an ole pseudonym on another blog) #103456 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: technical problems, to pt. ptaus1 Dear Nina, > N: This is not in my Lettertypes. How to install it, I have > Mac OS X. Hmm, not sure what's going on there. I'm also on a Mac OSX (not a particularly new one) and I didn't install anything new. What browser are you using? Does it have the menus in English or Dutch? And where exactly is the "Lettertypes" option you mention? If you are on a Mac, I'd guess you might be using Safari - you'll find the Unicode encoding if you click on View in the top menu bar - this will give you a new pop up menu - probably at the bottom of it there would be "Text encoding", and when you put your mouse over Text encoding, it will give you a new pop up menu with various encodings - "Unicode (UTF-8)" should be one of them. If you are using Firefox, then it should be as I explained earlier, so the only difference is that "Text encoding" is called "Character encoding" in Firefox. If this doesn't work, let me know, and I'll see if I can chase down a Pali font for mac maybe. > N: another problem: I can read a pdf doc. but I cannot copy or quote > from it. Not all pdfs are made in the same way - some are made from pictures, so even though we can see "text", it's a picture that's being displayed, so there can be no selecting and copying of text. Other pdf's are actually made from text files, so one can select and copy portions of text. To make sure which one is it, select the text tool mode in your pdf reader software. I'd guess that on a Mac you might be using Preview apple software for viewing pdfs - on the top it will have 3 icons for various tool modes - first that looks like a cross(or a hand), second that looks like a letter (A), and third that looks like a square. If you select the letter tool, that's the one needed for selecting text in the pdf files. If it won't select text with that tool, that means it's not a text pdf, but a picture one. In this case, what you can do is select the square tool which you can use to select a portion of the picture which roughly corresponds to the text you want to quote. Click copy, and then paste it in the document you want - it will appear in that document again as a picture, not text. But, not all applications will accept this pasting. I tried it just now in MS word (for mac) and it worked. However, I tried to paste it in this message - it didn't work. Another still more complicated procedure is to take a screenshot of the desktop, but it will still end up as a picture in the end - please let me know if this interest you and I'll write in more detail about it. I also heard there are softwares which convert picture pdfs into text, so will look into this. Best wishes pt #103457 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:56 pm Subject: Re: PROPOSITION: "I'm an undercover agent for the FBI" dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > ................ snip > > My problem, here, right now, is this subject line speaking of MIND DOOR. the entire CONCEPT of a door boggles me since it is ritualistic behavior and dogma that the prostitute or bride, after being sold to a male in the traffiking of human bodies through the institution of MARRIAGE, that the "bride" is carried over the "threshold" of the door. All doors have to have a THRESHHOLD, don't they? All "portals" have to have a THRESHHOLD, don't they? > > The problem begins to take root in the fact that to subscribe to this concept of a "door" being present at any stage or point of consciousness is a Miss Leading and Miss Directing concept to grasp at. It's exactly like the same problem this "swami" has in applying terminology applying to "chakras" in terms of the Anahata or "heart" Chakra. Neophytes would "foundationalize" their mind on the necessity of a Crown Chakra above the head which symbolizes the unification of the Shiva/Shakti, Yin/Yang, etc, forces into a singularity, HOWEVER, upon deeper study in the actuality of the practices of YOGA, we find that the Heart Chakra or Anahata Chakra is the point of "emination" from which all things are founded upon. > > Entering the doorway is merely a step in the process. > > Taking that proverbial "first step" is merely the begining point of a "concept" and the ending point of another "concept", NO? > C: May I suggest a reading? It is not too long. It is "Two Kinds of language" by the late and somewhat controversial Thai monk, ajahn Buddhadasa: [Excerpt] Let us put this another way. We distinguish ordinary physical language from metaphysical language. The field of metaphysics is utterly different from that of physics and consequently there is a special metaphysical language. So in addition to the ordinary language of the physical, there is a language that transcends the physical. The physical language is the worldly, conventional language used under ordinary circumstances and based on physical things. The metaphysical language is based on mental things. It has to be learned, studied, and understood. It is based not on the physical world but on the mental. I hope you can now see the distinction between everyday language and Dhamma language. The point now is that if we know only everyday language, we are in no position to understand true Dhamma when we hear it. If we don't know the language of Dhamma, then we can't understand Dhamma, the supramundane Truth that can truly liberate us from unsatisfactoriness and misery (dukkha). The reason we don't understand Dhamma is that we know only everyday language and are not familiar with Dhamma language. It is essential always to interpret the Buddha's teaching in terms of Dhamma language as well as in terms of everyday language. Both meanings must be considered. Please take careful note of the following passages: Appamatto ubho atthe adhiganhati pandito, Ditthe dhamma ca yo attho, yo ca'ttho saparayiko. Atthabhisamayadhiro pan d ito ti pavuccati. The wise and heedful person is familiar with both modes of speaking: the meaning seen by ordinary people and the meaning which they can't understand. One who is fluent in the various modes of speaking is a wise person. [End excerpt] For full Dhamma talk: http://www.buddhadasa.com/naturaltruth/twolanguage1.html colette: > Lets not get too deep after I've had such a magnificiently great Sunday with one of my old friends and away from the monotony that I endure throughout the rest of existance. > > Thank you Nina. > > toodles, > colette > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103458 From: "Dinesh" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Need your help dinesh.kular... Dear Sarah, Thank you so much for responding to my question. But still there remains a doubt: Is there any possibility for ditti to be involved in here? My understanding is that the cittas arise in those particular instances cannot be connected with wrong view and they are more likely to be rooted in Moha than in Lobha. I don't know…what do you think? Metta Dinesh --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Dinesh, > > --- On Fri, 11/12/09, Dinesh Kularathne wrote: > I’m an absolute beginner of Abhidhamma. Please help me by > answering my following question. > What is the citta that arises in one’s mind when he/she thinks, > “money is everythingâ€? > ... > S: It would either be a citta with moha (ignorance) or a citta with ditthi (wrong view) of one kind of other. It seems like ditth-upadana - clinging with wrong view. (Of course, there is also moha with such cittas too). > ... > >(or when he/she > thinks, “Colour of that vase is redâ€?)? > ... > S: This is more difficult - it may be with wrong view, it may be with ignorance without any view involved, or it may just be a sammuti sacca (conventional truth) observation which even an ariyan who has eradicated all wrong view might make. Even the Buddha still knew what a vase was, what was red, what name was given to it, but without any ignorance. > > We can see from these examples that it's impossible to judge the citta by the other appearance or situation. This is why only awareness and understanding can know at any moment what kind of citta it is. > > Thx for your good questions. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #103459 From: "Dinesh" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:46 pm Subject: Re: Mp 3 discussions. dinesh.kular... Hi Nina! Very delighted to know that you're back. Thank you for your welcoming note. I immensely enjoy reading all your interesting discussions here and this is a wonderful place to be. But I should listen to my Dhamma friend when he says, "Talk less. Listen more. Ask questions", so you'll see more questions from me than comments. :-)) Thank you so much for your warm welcome. I'm so glad that I joined this group. Metta, Dinesh --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Dinesh and Jai, > welcome here. I am glad dinesh likes the discussions. WE like to hear > your comments on these, even a few lines. It is very good for further > discussions. What especially struck you, Dinesh? > Jai, you could order the series Pakinnaka, those are excellent on > vipassana (all in Thai). These are also good for discussion. > Nina. > #103460 From: "Dinesh" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:05 pm Subject: Re: Dinesh' questions dinesh.kular... Dear Nina, Many, many thanks for sparing some time to answer my questions. I think I should have been more specific when I was asking this question. Let's assume that this poor fellow who thinks that money is everything comes from a non-religious background so he's not attached to any religious belief and the only escape he knows from his day to day sufferings is relying on money. And he thinks money is everything without lobha. In other words his liberator/God is money and he doesn't desire his God. He only has 'faith' in this omnipotent savior. In that case could that specific citta be one of the cittas rooted in Moha? And, when the time permits could you please explain the following two cittas rooted in delusion in detail giving me several daily-life examples if possible? 1 the one connected with doubts 2 the one connected with restlessness Perhaps this has been the question I raised repetitively :-) Metta Dinesh --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Dinesh, > > Dinesh: > I’m an absolute beginner of Abhidhamma. Please help me by > answering my following question. > What is the citta that arises in one’s mind when he/she thinks, > â€Å"money is everythingâ€Â? (or when he/she > thinks, â€Å"Colour of that vase is redâ€Â?)? > ------ > N: I have trouble with these letters but I can guess. > What is the citta like that thinks: money is everything? > > N: There is a lot of ignorance with this citta and also clinging, > lobha. He takes it that money is the goal of life. The Buddha taught > the real goal in life: more understanding of what is real in the > absolute sense. This kind of understanding is very powerful, it can > eradicate defilements. > > D: He thinks the colour of this vase is red. > > N: He thinks of the concept vase and might take it for real. What is > real? When he touches, the reality of hardness may appear through the > bodysense. Or when seeing, the reality of visible object appears. > When he thinks of a red colour or the red vase, it is only the citta > that thinks of a concept. Usually we think with akusala citta. > In order to know the truth understanding has to be developed of each > reality separately as it appears through one doorway at a time. > What do you think of this? > > Nina. > > #103461 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:28 pm Subject: Re: emptiness of dhammas dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Vince, > > ------- > V: > Are citta, naama and rupa substantial realities? ............... snip Ken H: > They are paramattha dhammas - absolute realities. They are the only things that ultimately exist. All else is ultimately illusory. > ................. snip > C: Would "ultimate realities" be a synonym of "absolute realities"? Ken H > Thanks. metta (maitri), Chuck #103462 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:28 pm Subject: Mara Namuci: The Evil One! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Devil meeting the true Saint! The Buddha once spoke straight to Namuci also called M ara the Evil One: Sense pleasure is your first army, discontent your 2nd, while hunger and thirst is your 3rd army. The 4th is craving, the 5th is lethargy and laziness, fear is your 6th, doubt is the 7th, hypocrisy and stubbornness is your 8th. Gain, renown, honour, and whatever falsely received fame is your 9th army you Kanha black dark-minded one. One who is not hero cannot conquer that, but having defeated it, one gains great happiness. Having brought my mind under full control, well-established in continuous awareness, I will wander through the kingdoms, training many disciples, who alert and well motivated, despite your temptations, will go where having gone, one cannot ever grieve! Realizing his defeat M ara , the Evil One, replied: For seven long years I have followed the Blessed One, step by step, without ever obtaining even a single opportunity against this perfectly Self-Enlightened One, who is fully aware. Like a crow, which circled a yellow stone, which appeared like a lump of fat, thinking "Perhaps I can find something soft & sweet here", but after having attacked the rock, without getting anything, went away sadly disappointed, even and exactly so will I have to go away. Discouraged the demon's lute fell from his armpit and overwhelmed by frustration he disappeared right there.. Sutta-Nipata verses 436-449. Edited excerpt. This highborn hedonistic devil is called Namuci , since he lets no one escape, and Mara, since he leads beings into a repeated cycle of birth and death.... <....> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> Mara Namuci: The Evil One! #103463 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 1. ksheri3 Hi Icaro The sutta I promised to show you has to deal with, quite extensively, the concept: "This is not me." It's one of the Buddha's first Suttas and opened my eyes to Shunyata or is it Sunyata. As for the rule of Mr. Crocker (is that the husband of Betty?) isn't it true that being under ANY RULE is "baaad"? tomorrow, I'll get into your wonderful application that 99.9% of all people fail to grasp concerning "things" as being "concrete" as opposed to "abstract". I luv it! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Icaro" wrote: > > Hi Colette! > > > I got, in bold RED letters at the tops of my papers, "F", >systematically or is it religously. > > Well...baaad for you to be under Mr. Crocker�s rule! ^_^ <...> #103464 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:58 pm Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? kenhowardau Hi Colette, ------- KH: > >...are critical of Thanissaro's take on anatta. So I hope you won't be offended. But please read them anyway, ..." colette: "offended"? Sir, "Critical Thought" should not be offensive but INSIGHTFUL, ILLIMUNITATING, OBSERVANT, ETC, and so there should be no offense taken nor "felt". I look forward to reading them ------- You will remember them when you see them. They are about Ven Thanissaro's novel theory: "anatta does not mean no self." Ven T believes anatta was originally taught as a meditation strategy. Apparently a meditator can maintain a calm mind if he avoids thoughts of his own existence or non-existence. And so we are told anatta originally meant 'non-self' not 'no self.' The entire theory is wrong view, of course, but quite widely accepted wrong view. :-) Ken H #103465 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:14 pm Subject: Re: emptiness of dhammas kenhowardau Hi Chuck, ------- C: > Would "ultimate realities" be a synonym of "absolute realities"? ------- Yes, I believe they are both accepted translations of 'paramattha dhamma.' As I understand the words, 'dhamma' means 'reality' and 'paramattha' means 'in the highest sense.' Ken H #103466 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:53 pm Subject: Re: emptiness of dhammas dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > ------- > C: > Would "ultimate realities" be a synonym of "absolute realities"? > ------- > > Yes, I believe they are both accepted translations of 'paramattha dhamma.' > > As I understand the words, 'dhamma' means 'reality' and 'paramattha' means 'in the highest sense.' > > Ken H > Good friend Ken H, Warm thanks for the confirmation. Ajahn Bodhi uses that term in his general editorship of the, "A Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma." In addition, he states: This is the division of actuality into the four ultimate realities (paramattha): Consciousness Mental Factors Material Phenomena Nibbana (citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana) The first three comprising conditioned reality; and, the last the unconditioned element. Question: The above is agreeable with you? Warm thanks. metta (maitri), Chuck #103467 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:08 am Subject: Re: emptiness of dhammas kenhowardau Hi Chuck, ------ <. . .> C: > In addition, he states: This is the division of actuality into the four ultimate realities (paramattha): Consciousness Mental Factors Material Phenomena Nibbana (citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana) The first three comprising conditioned reality; and, the last the unconditioned element. Question: The above is agreeable with you? ------ Yes, that's the way I understand it. The punctuation could have been better, though. As it is, a reader could get the impression 'paramattha' meant 'ultimate realities' instead of just the adjective 'ultimate.' There is also ultimate truth (paramattha saca) ultimate speech (paramattha vacana) and ultimate teaching (paramattha desana). Ken H #103468 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:12 am Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Billy, > > Sunyata I believe is a Mahayana term very similar to anatta and voidness in Theravada. "Anatta" is Pali language term that is often translated in English as not-self, no-self, impersonal, etc. So, afaik, it's like like a universal characteristic of all dhammas (I like the term "characteristic" a bit more than "essence"). As well as being one of the central pillars of Buddhism. > > You can read more about it in Useful Posts section (good posts from previous discussion on this forum): http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wCAfSylJMLrdIIwaDa5EQMobRcYhpQWH9rdfNgspF-IUAkEdlWZ\ bDV-YSg7PN-PAy7LXeN6Cw77x6vn_bSBT/Useful_Posts_October_2009.htm > ................ snip C: Good friend pt, I need your help. I can not access the web site you list above. [bummers] > > Best wishes > pt > > ............. snip peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103469 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:17 am Subject: Re: emptiness of dhammas dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > Hi Chuck, > ........... snip > > Question: The above is agreeable with you? > ------ > > Yes, that's the way I understand it. The punctuation could have been better, though. As it is, a reader could get the impression 'paramattha' meant 'ultimate realities' instead of just the adjective 'ultimate.' There is also ultimate truth (paramattha saca) ultimate speech (paramattha vacana) and ultimate teaching (paramattha desana). > > Ken H > C: Good friend Ken H, warm thanks for the further information. I will check the additional Pali terms. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103470 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:40 am Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? ptaus1 Hi Chuck, > I need your help. I can not access the web site you list above. [bummers] The best way to get to UP is to click Files option in the menu on the left, which will open a new window - and then find there the "Useful Posts October 2009" file (currently ninth file from above). Here's again the shortcut to it: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/AEInS5aQU8bCm86FEfGAsmzIDtCz8LJAKYAUWUNO-ExxHeSMQ_l\ UqQ6JfPIzT8R2V2zM3-Fco8LJFC5yyI0m/Useful_Posts_October_2009.htm But, this shortcut will again change soon when yahoo changes something or sarah updates the file name. So best use the above procedure - Files>UP Best wishes pt #103471 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:17 am Subject: Re: Sun Ya Ta ? dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > .....snip.... > But, this shortcut will again change soon when yahoo changes something or sarah updates the file name. So best use the above procedure - Files>UP > > Best wishes > pt > C: Warm thanks. I missed it was under the "Useful Posts October 2009" in the "Files" option. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103472 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:54 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, The performing of deeds of generosity is included in the first of the threefold classification of wholesomeness, but the giving away of things may not always be kusala kamma. There may be moments of sincere generosity, but they are likely to be alternated with akusala cittas. We may expect something in return for our gift, and then there are akusala cittas rooted in attachment. Or we may find that our gift was too expensive and we may feel regret about it. Then there are akusala cittas with stinginess which are rooted in aversion. The person who receives our gift may not be grateful and therefore we may be annoyed or sad. We are inclined to pay attention mostly to the effect of our deeds on others. In order to develop what is wholesome there should be no preoccupation with the reactions of others towards our good deeds. Through the Buddhist teachings one learns to investigate the different moments of citta which motivate one’s deeds. Generosity arises with kusala citta, it does not depend on gratefulness of other people. When one is intent on the development of what is wholesome, there will be no disturbance by other people’s reactions. Is it not a selfish attitude to be constantly occupied with one’s own cittas? On the contrary, when one comes to know when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta, one will be able to develop more wholesomeness and this is beneficial for oneself as well as for one’s fellowmen. We have accumulated countless defilements and thus the arising of kusala citta is very rare. When there are conditions for generosity, there are at such moments no stinginess, no clinging to one’s possessions. The development of kusala promotes a harmonious society. ******** Nina. #103473 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Just got round to checking - so one minor amendment, a typo, but rather an important one perhaps: --- On Sun, 13/12/09, scottduncan2 wrote: >Visuddhimagga XVIII, 24, "...So, as one who opens a box with a knife, as one who splits a twin palmyra bulb in two, he defines all states of the three planes, the eighteen elements, twelve bases, five aggregates, in the double way as 'mentality-material ity', and he concludes that over and above mere mentality-materiality that is a being or a person or a deity or a Brahmaa." .... Sarah: the last line should of course read: "....and he concludes that over and above mere mentality-materiality *there is nothing else* that is a being or a person or a deity or a Brahmaa." It could be a mantra! Here's the Pali while I have the books out: "naamarrupamattato uddha.m a~n~no satto vaa puggalo vaa devo vaa Brahmaa vaa n'atthii ti ni.t.tha.m gacchati." Thanks again for all your helpful comments. Metta Sarah ======== #103474 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: technical problems, to pt. nilovg Dear pt, Thank you for your kindness and I shall at ease try things out later on. I have a Firefox and also Safari. Nina. Op 15-dec-2009, om 0:45 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > What browser are you using? #103475 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "Just got round to checking - so one minor amendment, a typo, but rather an important one perhaps..." Scott: Sorry. Sincerely, Scott. #103476 From: "Icaro" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 1. icarofranca Hi Colette! > > Hi Icaro > > The sutta I promised to show you has to deal with, quite extensively, the concept: > > "This is not me." > > It's one of the Buddha's first Suttas and opened my eyes to >Shunyata or is it Sunyata. Well... > > As for the rule of Mr. Crocker (is that the husband of Betty?) >isn't it true that being under ANY RULE is "baaad"? No. Rules are necessary in all matters of life...but for Mr. Crocker an "A+" grade isn't even sarcasm - it's impossible! > > tomorrow, I'll get into your wonderful application that 99.9% of >all people fail to grasp concerning "things" as being "concrete" as >opposed to "abstract". > > I luv it! Oh! It's wonderful to believe that life has got a final goal, a Summum Bonum, a happy end for all that have faith! It warms soul and makes your acts meaningful, your decisions straight and rightful, your charities full of purpose, your missionary zeal strong and unshakeable. Sorry..."F" for you. Mettaya Ícaro #103477 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (316, 11-12) sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Connie, Nina & all, Good reminders, thank you: --- On Sat, 12/12/09, scottduncan2 wrote: CSCD <CSCD < Good reminders about what is most important in life..... Metta Sarah ======= #103478 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, Delighted to discuss some subtle points with you! --- On Tue, 15/12/09, scottduncan2 wrote: >>Sarah: "...What I understand her to mean is that now it seems as if we see and hear and experience through the senses all the time or for long periods of time. For example, we think we're experiencing light most of the day. In fact, the world is only light at the brief moments when visible objects is experienced. The rest of the time, there's no light at all. The same applies to sound or with regard to tangible objects. We may think that painful (bodily) feelings last a long time, when really the painful feeling is just a very, very brief moment of vipaka at the moment of experiencing a tangible object." >Scott: So, this is experience prior to the first vipassanaa-~ naa.na, when it seems as if there is light or sound or painful (bodily) feelings lasting a long time. ... Sarah: And also after the first v-n at moments of ignorance (most the time)- back to normal. Nicca-sa~n~na hasn't been eradicated. .... >>Sarah: "In other words, we're very influenced by sense objects and it seems that they're being experienced most of the time. In fact, as we know, there is just one sense door process of cittas followed by many, many mind-door processes of cittas. When there is more understanding of different namas and rupas, the dhammas experienced through the mind-door are revealed. At the first stage of insight, these namas and rupas are clearly distinguished (in the mind-door) and the sense-door (processes) no longer cover up the mind-door (processes). " >Scott: In other words, since pa~n~naa distinguishes dhammas through the mind door, it is the fact of a mind-door *after* a sense-door that is part of the experience. ... Sarah: Namas can only be experienced in the mind-door processes, of course... .... Scott:> The gap or darkness or silence between sense-door process and mind-door process becomes apparent as a dhamma is experienced and distinguished in the mind-door. ... S: The point about light is not this, but that whenever any object other than visible object is experienced, there is no light. Developed insight may be able to know bhavanga cittas, it's true and certainly more advanced insight will understand the falling away of cittas, but first namas and rupas have to be clearly known and distinguished over and over again and this can only occur in the mind-door processes where both namas and rupas can be known. It's true that cittas are 'dark' and 'silent', but I don't think it's helpful to think about 'the gap' between processes. Better to understand the reality appearing now - the seeing, the visible object or the thinking, for example. ... >Scott: Is the experience of the distinction between sense-door and mind-door an inherent aspect of an experience of the distinction between naama and ruupa? .... S: (mind, these are just my understandings to date:-)) Yes, I think this sums it up very nicely. To turn it round also, by understanding more and more about nama and rupa when they appear - i.e. understanding the characteristic of seeing, of visible object, of hearing, of sound (not the words, of course!) - it becomes clearer and clearer what is meant by the sense door and mind door processes. Please continue with this discussion because it's also helpful for me and others too, I'm sure, to reflect further on. It's quite a subtle topic and sometimes the words can be confusing - for example, sometimes 'mind door' is used to refer to the last bhavanga citta which acts as the mind-door for the mind-door process, and sometimes 'mind door' refers to the entire process of cittas. Similarly, sometimes 'sense door' refers to the eye-sense (or other sense base) and sometimes, again, to the entire process of cittas. So, we always need to consider the context when we read or listen, so that it makes sense and is in accord with the Teachings elsewhere. Metta Sarah ======= #103479 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) ashkenn2k Dear Chuck >The Anapanasati Sutta (A Practical Guide in Mindfulness of Breathing and Tranquil Wisdom Meditation) as discussed by Venerable U Vimalaramsi. > >The second right kind of strivings teaches one to abandon heavy emotional states like anger, sadness, jealousy, anxiety, stress, depression, fear, etc., and replace them with a smiling mind which relaxes away even the subtlest tension. KO : Satipatthana is not about replacing one thought with another. It is about understanding the characteristics of anger, sadness etc. When panna arise to understand anger, at that moment there is no longer dosa. So that is no need to replace such a thought, the feelings is already different as only neutral or joyous feeling arise with panna. the mind is calm during the arisen of any kusala due to the accompanied arisen of the sobhana cetasikas like tranquility of the mental body and citta. What Ven U Vimalaramsi teaching is modern psychology, not Buddha dhamma. Because a smiling mind is also impermanent and smiling can be accompanied by lobha which is dukkha and the cause of dukkha. No disrespect but we must be clear in what we are learning. > This is the wholesome state of joyful interest and enthusiasm. By cultivating such a smiling mind, one overcomes the ego-identification with these states as being "Mine". > >A good sense of humor about oneself is a skillful tool to develop when trodding the spiritual path. KO: As I said, a good sense of humour could be lobha. A smiling mind does not overcome ego-identification, it may be the reverse, reinforcing lobha which reinforce the ego. If we want to overcome "mine", then we must learn about anatta of the dhamma, and not about smiling mind. As for the rest I leave it to you to decide. With metta Ken O #103480 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AnapanaSATI Satipatthana ashkenn2k Dear Alex Alex: Few things: When I do anapanasati I practice not to control things. To want something is clinging. Wanting something NOT to happen is (often) aversion. Not knowing what is going on, is delusion. Breath is something that NATURALLY occurs. Normal people ALWAYS breath, but they are not always mindful. No need to add anything, normally we always breath, it is natural. It is done to develop the awareness of the present moment with breath being anchor. The breath is actually a secondary thing. A more important thing is to watch the mind that arises and ceases with every breath. The breath is great example of impermanence, including the impermanence of the OBSERVING citta. KO: You are paying attention now to the mind or the breath? If you pay attention to the breath, you cannot pay attention to the citta. Mind could only take one object at a time. You must be clear on the object being mindful and understand its impermanence. Citta is real you could observe it but breathing is not real, it is motion of the breathing that is real which is an air element. When you observe as rupa and not a breathing being or a self, then you are looking at the charateristics of the rupa and not characteristic of the breathing. An impt distinction you should be mindful of. Also it should not be impermanence of the observing citta. Does it mean another citta observing another citta? Would that be possible for two citta to arise at the same time? You should be noticing the characteristics of the citta and not observing the citta. I am still not encouraging you to do meditation alone because you are not valuing the time out of meditation. Being mindful of characteristtic does not need one to be in meditation. Impermanence is everywhere, just like the sound you hear of your brushing cease when you stop brushing and do other things. Anatta is everywhere, just like when you see your food in the morning, it is just visible object and eye citta and that condition the seeing. There is no self to ask seeing to arise. It happens by its own condition. There is no being in food, it is just visible object. And hardness when we hold it. Tasting it when the taste citta arise with the taste object. It is the congregation of such nama and rupas that we construe that this is bread or milk. With metta Ken O #103481 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 2. ashkenn2k Dear Nina Adding to your the passage on giving Perfections, pg 17 “He does not give because he expects something in return. And when there is not enough to give sufficiently to all, he distributes evenly whatever can be shared. But he does not give things that lead to affliction for others, such as weapons, poisons and intoxicants. Nor does he give amusing things which are harmful and lead to negligence. And he does not give unsuitable food or drink to a person who is sick, even though that person might ask for it, and he does not give what is suitable beyond the proper measure.â€? “Again, when asked, he gives to householders things appropriate for householders, and to monks things appropriate for monks. He gives to his mother and father, kinsmen and relatives, friends and colleagues, children, wife, slaves and workers, without causing pain to anyone. Having promised an excellent gift, he does not give something mean. He does not give because he desires gain, honour or fame, or because he expects something in return, or out of expectation of some fruit other than the supreme enlightenment (in the case of the Bodhisatta). He does not give detesting the gift or those who ask. He does not give a discarded object as a gift, not even to unrestrained beggars who revile and abuse him.â€? “He gives invariably with confidence, with compassion and respect.â€? “He does not give through belief in superstitious omens: but he gives believing in kamma and its fruit. When he gives he does not afflict those who ask by making them do homage to him, etc.; but he gives without afflicting others. He does not give a gift with the intention of deceiving others or with the intention of injuring; he gives only with an undefiled mind. He does not give a gift with harsh words or a frown, but with words of endearment, congenial speech, and a smile on his face. Whenever greed for a particular object becomes excessive, due to its high value and beauty, its antiquity, or attachment accumulated since a long time, the Bodhisatta recognizes his greed, quickly dispels it, seeks out some recipients, and gives it away.â€? Cheers Ken O #103482 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:14 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 6 ashkenn2k Dear all There are objects which are real and there are objects which are not real. Objects can be experienced through six doors and they can be classified as sixfold: Visible object (rúpårammaùa) can be known through the eye-door. Sound (saddårammaùa) can be known through the eardoor. Odour can be known through the nose-door. Flavour can be known through the tongue-door. Tangible object can be known through the body-door. Dhammårammaùa (mental object) can be known through the mind-door. As to visible object, this is the reality that appears through the eyes. It is the object of víthi-cittas13 that arise depending on the eyesense, the cakkhu-pasåda-rúpa. When visible object has fallen away there are many bhavanga-cittas14 arising and falling away, and then víthi-cittas of the mind-door process experience the visible object which has just fallen away. Thus, visible object can be experienced through two doors: through the eye-door, and, after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between, through the mind-door. As to sound, this is the reality that appears through ears. It is the object of víthi-cittas which arise depending on the earsense, the sota-pasåda-rúpa. It appears through the mind-door after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between. There have to be bhavanga-cittas after each process of cittas. Thus, there must always be bhavangacittas in between a sense-door process and a mind-door process. When we hear a sound and know the meaning of what is heard there are different processes. When one knows the meaning of a word there are mind-door processes of cittas which think of that word. These cittas are different from cittas of the ear-door process which experience the sound which has not fallen away yet. (to be continued) With metta Ken O #103483 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:18 am Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 3 ashkenn2k Dear all This kind of restraint can be achieved through the development of paññå which understands the realities that appear as they are. One will begin to let go of attÃ¥-saññå with regard to what appears through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-door, in accordance with the degree of paññå which has been reached. We should remember that no matter which topic or which detail the teachings deal with, it all concerns the realities of daily life. Sati should be aware of the realities which appear so that paññå is able to clearly understand their characteristics. This leads to the complete eradication of defilements. We should listen carefully to the Dhamma, we should study and investigate the dhammas which are already appearing, which are our ordinary, daily life. We cannot yet immediately eradicate lobha, dosa, moha and the other defilements. People desire to eradicate defilements, but they should know that defilements can only be eradicated at the moment of enlightenment, when the magga-citta, path-consciousness, arises. First “personality viewâ€?, sakkÃ¥ya diììhi, is eradicated, which takes the dhammas appearing through the six doors for self, being or person. Personality view is eradicated at the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the streamwinner, sotÃ¥panna. After that stage has been attained, paññå should be developed further so that the following stages of enlightenment can be attained and defilements can successively be eradicated. These stages are the stages of the once-returner, sakadÃ¥gÃ¥mà the non-returner, anÃ¥gÃ¥mà and the arahat. Thus, paññå can be developed only gradually. One should not try to hasten its development, one should not believe that it is sufficient just to practise for a day, a month or a year, without even understanding the right conditions for sati. Actually, sati which is sammÃ¥-sati (right mindfulness) of the eightfold Path can only arise if one first studies and understands the characteristics of realities as they appear through the senses and through the mind-door. Then sammÃ¥-sati can arise and be aware, and paññå can begin to study and investigate realities which naturally appear in daily life, so that they can be seen as they really are. The development of satipaììhÃ¥na is a threefold training (sikkhÃ¥): training in higher morality, adhisà sikkhÃ¥ training in higher consciousness, adhicitta sikkhÃ¥ training in higher wisdom, adhipaññå sikkhÃ¥ When sati is aware of the realities which are appearing, there is higher sÃ, sà which is more refined. Sati is aware of the characteristics of citta, cetasika and rúpa. It is aware of kusala dhammas and akusala dhammas before actions through the body or through speech arise SatipaììhÃ¥na is training in higher consciousness, which means concentration, samÃ¥dhi or ekaggatÃ¥ cetasika SatipaììhÃ¥na is training in higher wisdom, because paññå investigates and studies in detail the characteristics of realities as they are appearing in daily life, so that they can be known as they are. (to be continued)  With metta Ken O 2. When sammÃ¥-sati arises there is concentration on the nÃ¥ma or rúpa which appears, on the dhamma which arises and falls away very rapidly. 1. #103484 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door ashkenn2k Dear Scott Scott: Yes, this makes sense. I understand that, technically at any rate, bhavanga citta *is* the mind-door in the sense that the procession of bhavanga is interrupted by the impinging object. I think that naama-ruupa- pariccheda- ~naa.na is developed pa~n~naa knowing the distinction between naama and ruupa. I think that this is a mind-door process. Do you think that the ability of pa~n~naa to know the distinction between sense-door and mind-door is *separate* from the process (if that it is) of pa~n~naa arising in naama-ruupa- pariccheda- ~naa.na? I'm considering the aspect of this particular question that relates to the fact that the mind-door is somehow revealed at at naama-ruupa- pariccheda- ~naa.na. KO: IMHO, No it could be in the same process that is how one know the distinction between the two process. There is no need for another process to arise to know it. It is the mind door that sees clearly of the characteristic of the object. But panna could still arise in the sense door first even though it is not strong enough to see the characteristics. This is a quote which I have wrote earlier to Sarah The Dispeller of Delusion pg 151 <<2047. And as they have not these functions, so also those of entry into certainty etc. For one does not enter into certainty of wrongness with impulsion belong to the five doors, nor into certainty of rightness; nor does this impulsion impel on being instigated by a personal name or clan name; nor by a concept such as a kasina, nor does it occur though insight which has the characteristics as object, nor does it occur through insight which leads to emergence, nor instigated by fine-material or immaterial states, nor nibbana, nor does discrimination knowledge arise through it, nor knowledge of the supernormal achievements, nor knowledge of the disciple's perfections nor knowledge of pacceka-Buddhahood, nor omniscient knowledge. But all this sort is found in mind-door impulsion only.>> Cheers Ken O #103485 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 2. nilovg Dear Ken O, good that you add. I heard Kh S. say that giving may not always be caaga, true renunciation, not thinking of any gain for oneself, but with the aim to lessen defilements. Thank you for the mail concerning Lodewijk's problems, I sent it on to him. Nina. Op 15-dec-2009, om 17:23 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Adding to your the passage on giving > Perfections, pg 17 #103486 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 14-dec-2009, om 23:11 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Are citta, naama and rupa substantial realities? Or are they only > names arising because a -self?. --------- N: Ken O answered, and I could add something. The word substantial is used for what has substance, exists. In other words, what we take for self. Naama and ruupa are fleeting realities, they arise and then fall away. They have characteristics that can be experienced one at a time. See Ken O's posting today of Kh Sujin's Realities and Concepts: Nama and rupa are absolute or ultimate realities. Person, self, table are not real in the ultimate sense. they are concepts we can think of. A reality such as anger is a reality, and it does not matter how we name it. We can give it another name but its characteristic of anger does not change. It is important to know the difference between realities and concepts. ---------- > > V: How do you understand the final nature of these things according > K.Sujin? ------- N: By final nature you mean: the true nature. Yes, it is possible, but not immediately. We need to have intellectual understanding and this can condition later on direct understanding of the true nature of realities when they appear at the present moment. We do not wish for direct understanding, clinging is a hindrance for its development. As Ken O said, what Kh Sujin explains is not her own thinking, but firmly founded on the Tipi.taka and commentaries. What she always stresses is: the Buddha wanted people to develop their own understanding and not just follow others. One has to become independent. It is necessary to listen and to really consider deeply what one hears so that there will be more understanding. It can develop. Nina. #103487 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:27 pm Subject: Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) kenhowardau Hi Chuck, ------ <. . .> C: > Have any of you perused this book by the said Venerable? > > If you have, > > 1. Do you agree? Why? > > 2. Do you disagree? Why? > ------ The meditation instructions you have outlined would make perfect sense to someone who had a conventional understanding of reality, wouldn't they? First do this, then do that, . . . they form the kind of practice that fits well with atta belief (belief in a permanent self living in a permanent world). The Dhamma, however, is about a world in which there is no permanent self and in which everything is a mere, fleeting [mental or physical] phenomenon. This kind of world could never be known by means of a conventional practice. Instead of trying to become an enlightened "self" we should just understand the present reality as it has been described by the Buddha. ---------- C: > Post script: If this post falls outside DSG guidelines, please delete. ---------- It is exactly the kind of post that belongs at DSG. It points to anatta - the heart of the Dhamma. Please continue! Ken H #103488 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:14 pm Subject: Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) truth_aerator Hello KenH, KenO, all, > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > ------ > <. . .> > C: > Have any of you perused this book by the said Venerable? > > > > If you have, > > > > 1. Do you agree? Why? > > > > 2. Do you disagree? Why? > > > ------ > > The meditation instructions you have outlined would make perfect >sense to someone who had a conventional understanding of reality, >wouldn't they? What prevents a person from meditating with knowledge and understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta, namarupa, no-control? > First do this, then do that, . . . they form the kind of practice >that fits well with atta belief (belief in a permanent self living >in a permanent world). Not necessarily. How is that different from DSG approach? In fact what is DSG approach to awakening? What should be done, what shouldn't be done? Some frequently talk about sati, satipatthana, awareness of dhammas/namarupa, etc. How does awareness of that develops? With metta, Alex #103490 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:00 pm Subject: Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Chuck > > >The Anapanasati Sutta (A Practical Guide in Mindfulness of Breathing and Tranquil Wisdom Meditation) as discussed by Venerable U Vimalaramsi. > > > >The second right kind of strivings teaches one to abandon heavy emotional states like anger, sadness, jealousy, anxiety, stress, depression, fear, etc., and replace them with a smiling mind which relaxes away even the subtlest tension. > > KO : Satipatthana is not about replacing one thought with another. It is about understanding the characteristics of anger, sadness etc. When panna arise to understand anger, at that moment there is no longer dosa. So that is no need to replace such a thought, the feelings is already different as only neutral or joyous feeling arise with panna. the mind is calm during the arisen of any kusala due to the accompanied arisen of the sobhana cetasikas like tranquility of the mental body and citta. C: I think you are correct. A consideration: A beginning meditator does not immediately have the wisdom (panna) to understand anger; does one? KO : What Ven U Vimalaramsi teaching is modern psychology, not Buddha dhamma. C: Would you agree the handbook is for a new meditator and not for a Dhamma-Vinaya scholar? KO : Because a smiling mind is also impermanent and smiling can be accompanied by lobha which is dukkha and the cause of dukkha. C: Well, are not all "conditioned whatevers" unsatisfactory/suffering (dukkha)? KO : No disrespect but we must be clear in what we are learning. C: Even for an ordinary person, worldling (puthujjana)? Even for a beginning meditator? There is no place for a metaphor or simile in the Dhamma-Vinaya? > > This is the wholesome state of joyful interest and enthusiasm. By cultivating such a smiling mind, one overcomes the ego-identification with these states as being "Mine". > > > >A good sense of humor about oneself is a skillful tool to develop when trodding the spiritual path. > > KO : As I said, a good sense of humour could be lobha. A smiling mind does not overcome ego-identification, it may be the reverse, reinforcing lobha which reinforce the ego. C: Agreed. KO : If we want to overcome "mine", then we must learn about anatta of the dhamma, and not about smiling mind. C: I am reminded about the historic Buddha's long time old friend, the wanderer Vacchagotta, and his confusion about (1) what happens to an Arahant after physical death and (2) no self. Is there is no place for "gradual teachings"? KO : As for the rest I leave it to you to decide. C: I sincerely appreciate you reviewing the complete book and presenting your analysis. > > > > With metta > Ken O > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103491 From: "colette" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:36 am Subject: Far Flung Whimsy: "that's the end of that" ksheri3 Hi Group, Not surprising that nobody picked up on my tiny little cognition that an "end" is nothing more than a "begining". Nobody played on it! Did "nobody" actually play on it or is it my cognition that this actual being labeled as "nobody" DID, HAS, AND IS PLAYING ON MY COGNITION? If a play is being played then why is it that only I cognize it? If this alleged Nobody is playing upon my alleged cognition of a supposed END being a supposed BEGINING, THEN, what does that mean? Interesting NO? Lets look at my personal fascination with this Buddhist concept called NAME & FORM. Okay, to name something is to LABEL something, no? If so, then isn't true that NAME & FORM may actually be LABEL & FORM? Now we get into that subconscious schtick about ICONOGRAPHY since we see, we witness, within any developing child that the child cognizes a label or an icon before they cognize the actuality of their cognition i.e. they see "the golden arches" representing McDonalds fast food restaruant and they are immediately drawn to the icon which represents something to the child thus the child seeks IMMEDIATE GRATIFICATION. What is an "END"? What constitutes "the end" of anything? Is the end the actual end or is it the begining? Is "the end" mislabeled and misinterpreted as being an end and not a begining? This is certainly applicable to the Abhidharma and to the numerous Mahayana versions of Buddhism with their practices of TANTRA. The Abhidharma is very specific and very direct. The Abhidharma is the PHYSICIANS DESK MANUAL, per say, for any Buddhist practioner. Does the Abhidharma speak of the potential that the Abhidharma itself may have things mislabeled or misconstrued or misunderstood? Does the Abhidharma admit that it may be flawed? Was the Abhidharma produced by the deity named Maya, the god of ILLUSIONS? If so, then why is the Abhidharma so applicable and wise in so many aspects of "existance" yet blind and ignorant to it's own failures? toodles, colette #103492 From: "philofillet" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door philofillet Hi Sarah, Scott and all I'm sorry as always to be a party pooper, but this post really agitated me for some reason. How is it possible to discuss such deep topics without using lots and lots and LOTS of texts to stand beside one's feeble understanding? How is it possible for one's feeble understanding (and I use that in not a derogatory way but in a way that I'm sure you'd agree with, we are far, far, far from the great ones) to latch on to such profound topics without stamping them with lobha moha the way a dog marks stuff it licks with dog tongue germs? I see Ken O has a textual passage in his post, but this long exchange between Scott and Sarah contained not one. Is it because all this talk of the dark citta etc comes only only from A. Sujin? Is there any reference to the dark citta in the texts? I'm writing this because when I used to listen to A. Sujin this particular topic was the most intriguing of them all, it felt when listening to her that I was being let into a very, very profound arena though a door (the Sujin door) that all others in the Buddhist Universe were deprived of. (Since this topic was never or as far as I know is never discussed anywhere else except at DSG, and that includes lots and lots of talks I have heard from the Sayadaws that include Abhidhamma references.) I can still clearly remember sitting on a bench in a department store (as I often do while Naomi shops) listening to a talk on this topic as shoppers milled around, and I sat there wrapped in a sense of Listening To The Deep Truth While Worldings Bustled and God it felt good!!! So I would encourage you to get lots of textual references into this discussion a.s.a.p. Otherwise how can discussing such a topic be anything but the kind of impatience about results that you accuse others of? These kind of topics were enlightened by the unfathomably profound cittas of the Buddha and those that followed in his footsteps. Unless you use tons of texts and keep your own opinions and vague feelers of tentative understanding to a minimum, how can you fail to do anything but latch on again and again to your own corrupted appropriation of deep, deep understanding of the great ones? Texts please! Thank you! Metta, Phil p.s this is a typical one-way comment by phil who will retire again into his conventional-understanding driven "I'm becoming a wonderfully virtuous guy!" bliss tout de suite but who will read the texts you can provide with interest and appreciation. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Scott & all, > > Delighted to discuss some subtle points with you! > #103493 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:28 pm Subject: Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > Ken H: > The meditation instructions you have outlined would make perfect sense to someone who had a conventional understanding of reality, wouldn't they? First do this, then do that, . . . they form the kind of practice that fits well with atta belief (belief in a permanent self living in a permanent world). > C: Would not an ordinary person, a worldling (puthujjana), a begining meditator be described as above? Ken H: > The Dhamma, however, is about a world in which there is no permanent self and in which everything is a mere, fleeting [mental or physical] phenomenon. C: Agreed. Ken H: This kind of world could never be known by means of a conventional practice. > C: I do not think the author is teaching 'conventional" or "new age" meditation. Please peruse the complete book. I may well be incorrect. Ken H: > Instead of trying to become an enlightened "self" we should just understand the present reality as it has been described by the Buddha. > C: Agreed. FWIW, the author continues... The seeing of dependent origination both forwards and backwards leads the mind to the attainment of the "Supramudane Nibbana". This is where there is a major change in one's outlook. One's mind at that time, becomes dispassionate about the belief in a permanent everlasting ego or self. They see from first hand experiential knowledge, that this is just an impersonal process and there is no one controlling the way phenomena arise. These arise because conditions are right for them to arise. In Buddhist terms, this is called 'anatta' or not self nature of existence. One also realizes that no one can possibly attain sainthood by the practice of mere chanting words or phrases or suttas, or the practice of having rites and rituals done for them by someone else or by themselves. One has no more doubt about what is the correct path that leads to the higher stages of purity of mind towards arahatship. This is how one becomes a sotapanna and attains the true path of purification. There is no other way to attain these exalted stages of being. It is only through the realization of the Noble Truths by seeing Dependent Origination. Merely seeing the three characteristics will not now, nor ever be, the experience which leads to the 'Supramundane Nibbana'. This is why all of the Buddha's appear in the world, to show the way to realizing the Noble Truths. oOo > ---------- > C: > Post script: If this post falls outside DSG guidelines, please delete. > ---------- > > It is exactly the kind of post that belongs at DSG. It points to anatta - the heart of the Dhamma. Please continue! > > Ken H > C: Warm thanks for the encouragement. As you have the time, please peruse the book and present us your analysis of the book. metta (maitri), Chuck #103494 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, Always glad to have the "party-pooper" join in! If Scott had asked for references, as Alex always does, that's what I'd have looked for. But Scott, I understood, was asking for my understanding of what he'd been listening to on audio - he can pull out the texts himself, that's not a problem for him - we use the same sources:-) As for your requests, it's easier (for me) if you quote any of my comments that you would like textual support for. I forget exactly what I've written very quickly. --- On Wed, 16/12/09, philofillet wrote: >Is it because all this talk of the dark citta etc comes only only from A. Sujin? Is there any reference to the dark citta in the texts? I'm writing this because when I used to listen to A. Sujin this particular topic was the most intriguing of them all, it felt when listening to her that I was being let into a very, very profound arena though a door (the Sujin door). ... S: On dark cittas, there are two kinds of references I can think of quickly, as I'm about to go out soon. I'll just pull out the Sammohavinodani, translated as "Dispeller of Delusion" (PTS) for now: 1) All the references to dark and bright/light cittas in the suttas and commentaries with regard to kusala and akusala states. Usually in a day, of course, akusala: " Hence the Blessed One said: 'There are profitable and unprofitable states, bhikkhus, blameful and blameless states, states to be cultivated and not to be cultivated, states low and high, states dark and bright with their counterparts.....'(S v 1060)" (Dispeller, p 338). 2) All the references to light as an essential condition for seeing of visible object and as an aspect of visible object. If there's no light, nothing is seen. Other than such moments of seeing, we live in a world of darkness: [for seeing], "Likewise the eye is support condition; the visible datum is object condition; adverting is proximity, continguity, decisive-support, absence and disappearance conditions; light is decisive-support contdition; feeling, etc. are conascence and other conditions...." (Dispeller, p 84). "Light [is a condition], opposed as regards function, for eye-consciousness; and so are molasses, etc. for intoxicants. But eye-cum-visible-datum, etc. are conditions, unopposed as regards presence, for eye-consciousness, etc." (Dispeller, p 182). The seeing itself and other cittas just perform their particular functions. There is no 'light' in them. Without eye-sense and visible object (inc. light) as conditions, nothing is seen, no light appears. "For while one is sleeping, when a lamp lit with a big wick is brought near his eye, eye-door advetence does not interrupt the life continuum first, but mind-door advertence only interrupts it...." (Dispeller, p 151). Let me know how we're doing. I'm sure Ken O and Scott may find other helpful references for you as well! ... >p.s this is a typical one-way comment by phil who will retire again into his conventional- understanding driven "I'm becoming a wonderfully virtuous guy!" bliss tout de suite but who will read the texts you can provide with interest and appreciation. ... S: Your style is the "one-way comment" and my style is that of "engagement" with the ideas I'm addressing:-) So on your last comment, a new 'mantra' reminder courtesy of Scott: >Visuddhimagga XVIII, 24, "...So, as one who opens a box with a knife, as one who splits a twin palmyra bulb in two, he defines all states of the three planes, the eighteen elements, twelve bases, five aggregates, in the double way as 'mentality-materiality', and he concludes that over and above mere mentality-materiality there is nothing else that is a being or a person or a deity or a Brahmaa." ("naamarrupamattato uddha.m a~n~no satto vaa puggalo vaa devo vaa Brahmaa vaa n'atthii ti ni.t.tha.m gacchati.") Metta Sarah ======= #103495 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Regarding: P: "...So I would encourage you to get lots of textual references into this discussion a.s.a.p. Otherwise how can discussing such a topic be anything but the kind of impatience about results that you accuse others of?..." Scott: Just join in, Phil. Discussing is discussing. I mean honestly, man. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #103496 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > ..... snip > > S: I hope you meet up and visit the Foundation with him to meet A.Sujin, Betty and others. > ... > > > Another of our mostly-lurking members here, Betty, has a son who is ordained and living at Wat Bovoranives (half American, half Thai). > > > .... > > Chuck: I met one such monk. I forget his name. He is probably between late 20's to late 30's and six foot or more tall. I usually see him when I would spend a weekly 12-hour shift with His Holiness, The Supreme Patriarch. > ... > S: Could be the same. Betty will clarify with you. > .... Belated Chuck: Should finally visit the Foundation as I will be here until Feb. 3. .......... snip > > > > As you can see, 'the practise' and the understanding of the Dhamma is highly controversial here. How do you see the path? How do understand pariyatti and pa.tipatti? > > ... > > Chuck: I will answer separately as it may be rather lengthly. > ... > S: Look forward to that! > .... Belated Chuck: I never answered!!! [bummers] Please accept my apology. Briefly, I see practice as a personal path or quest with ups & downs, forward progress with back-sliding... For me, it first pa.tipatti (following precepts reinforced with meditation) and, to a lessor degree pariyatti - Tipitaka study. However, we all are different; hence, what is applicable to me may well not be applicable to you. > > > What did you find most useful about ordaining for this time? > > > > > Chuck: More opportunities to discuss the Teachings with English > > speaking monks. Also, the access to english speaking monks to > > translate with Thai only speaking monks. > .... > S: What aspects of the Teachings would most your discussions revolve > around, if you can summarise? Mostly concerned with the Vinaya or with ideas of practice or discussions on suttas? Belated Chuck: Unfortunately, we had no plan nor schedule; hence, it was rather haphazard. But, it was fruitful. We discussed mainly questions from reading suttas and salient points as anatta, arahant, citta (mano), nibbana, planes of existence, samyojana, sankhara > > If you do meet up with Sukin, A.Sujin, Betty and others for discussions in Bkk, pls report back on your impressions of these too. > > When we last visited, an English bhikkhu (residing in Chengmai), Ven > Pannabahulo, joined the discussions. You might like to read his report: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/74189 > > I'd be interested in any comments you have on this too. Belated Chuck: Will peruse. Warm thanks for your patience. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > metta (maitri), Belated Chuck #103497 From: Vince Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:20 pm Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Hi Nina how are you?. thanks to Ken O and yourself for the comments you wrote: > N: Ken O answered, and I could add something. The word substantial is > used for what has substance, exists. In other words, what we take for > self. Naama and ruupa are fleeting realities, they arise and then > fall away. They have characteristics that can be experienced one at a time. > [...] > Nama and rupa are absolute or ultimate realities. Person, self, table > are not real in the ultimate sense. they are concepts we can think of. > A reality such as anger is a reality, and it does not matter how we > name it. We can give it another name but its characteristic of anger > does not change. It is important to know the difference between > realities and concepts. yes, Ken O. wrote me "they have their own inherent characteristics, and so they could be called substantial in that regard. However, they have the anatta (no-self) characteristic and so they could be called insubstantial in that regard." But any other thing also have the anatta (no-self) characteristic, because the -self characteristic in any thing arises in the need of a cognizer. Where is the difference at all?. I understand there is a difference regarding what we build and what is contacting with our organs. The person, self and table, all them are concepts, and the basis-characteristics of the experience underlying these concepts are what we call ultimate realities. The table is a concept arising because his 4 legs, the wood, etc. In this way, we say that finally there are only naama, rupa and citta. However, even this cognition arises in dependence of the -self who knows, and therefore still it is a distorted situation. On the contrary case, the mere existence of the experience and the knowledge of the nature of phenomena involved, both would be able to awaken us in this same moment. You know, there is the famous case of the size of the Moon, still unexplained by the Science. Some days we see the moon much bigger than other days, despite the size of the reflection in our retine is the same and therefore it is not an optical illusion. For some unknown reason, we are deceived in the same moment of the contact of our sense-organ. Even in absence of concepts, the Reality is distorted by subtile ways. When we pursue final dhammas we need to take them like conventional ones, and I wonder if there is a fine line to fall in the trap of pursuing a "true face" of the Reality instead his true nature. Whether one is able or unable to differentiate naama and rupa, the speed in the cognition, etc.. any phenomena is what is here and now, in the immediate experience of the life. In this sense, there is not need to more questions regarding what is auto-evident in this same moment. When this point leaves, then start the wish to know what can be cognizable for the self, be citta, naama, rupa, or more thousand things. But we are making all that because there is slavery to the -self instead the freedom of Suchness. Because if we were free, then we would not have questions about something slaving us. "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. Thus, monks, the Tathagata — being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized — is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime." *AN 4.24 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.024.than.html Until today my practice has been the contemplation of Suchness in order to overcome self and klesas. At same time, I don't have doubt that K.Sujin and more people are able to discern the nature of phenomena and reality in that detailed level. But although the analysis of reality regarding naama, rupa and citta are a valid method. I doubt if the contemplation of Suchness is a more powerful one regarding the present moment. K Sujin told me that she didn't try nothing. If she is experiencing the difference between naama and rupa, then it is her experience of reality and she do what should be done. But when I don't experience the detailed differences between naama, rupa and citta in the arising of phenomena, then I understand that I should do the same regarding Suchness, and not be worried about what I don't see and I don't know here and now. In short, today I feel some error in leaving the contemplation of Suchness in order to pursue what is not here to me, because I feel it is the building of a cognizable and a cognizer to pursue what is not experienced. When we say "there is not the table but the seeing of a table" this is of real practical utility to me. But when we say the table is naama, rupa and citta, it is not what reality shows to me. At least until today. Reality show me a table, not naama, rupa and citta. In a similar way I experience cold and hot, not the movement of atoms in different speed. If somebody already has realized the people inside the TV are not real, Why the need of pixels, electrons and the rest?. Maybe he will approach to the television to check the pixels, he will become a TV technician, or he will remain in the sofa following the film. Where is the difference at all?. sorry for the longitude, best, #103498 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:39 pm Subject: Pure Merit! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: To whom should one give, to gain most Merit? The gods became gods as a result of their giving!!! The young brahman Magha once asked the Blessed Buddha: Giving food, where would the offering be most purified for the donor? The Blessed One answered: If any open-handed householder, a lordly giver, Magha, seeking merit, looking for merit, sacrifices, giving food and drink to others, such one would achieve most merit, if the recipient is pure and Noble. Such, who indeed wander unattached in the world, having & wanting nothing, fully accomplished, in complete self-control, upon them at the right time one should bestow an offering. Those who have cut all mental bonds and fetters, who are tamed, completely released, without affliction, without desire, upon them at the right time should one bestow an offering. Upon these purified & Noble ones should any brahman, who is looking for merit, place his sacrifice! Sutta-Nipata verses 488-491 Edited excerpt. Pure giving cut short: Give to those who don't want anything� <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #103499 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dhammasaro" wrote: > > > Good friends, > > Please forgive this very belated message on this topic. I am catching > up on this valuable study group. > > IMHO, monks are simply human beings trying to be better persons... at > least in my experience... most have not achieved the different > levels... hence, they have many human frailties... some find being a > monk is an easier existence than being a rice farmer!!! This is my > experience in being allowed to be a monk for a year and a week. Last > April this ole, argumentive Texican requested permission to disrobe > after only one year of study as I was a "temporary" monk. I disrobed on > 6 May 2550 (2007) at my wat in Bangkok. > > Please remember the monks in your chanting/meditation/prayer. They need > it as much as we laypersons (householders). > > If this message is not in keeping with your rules; please, immediately > delete. > > offered with metta (maitri), > > Chuck > > ................. snip Good friends all, just want to reinforce the above thought. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103500 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:40 pm Subject: Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) kenhowardau Hi Chuck, ------------ KH: > > The meditation instructions you have outlined would make perfect sense to someone who had a conventional understanding of reality, wouldn't they? First do this, then do that, . . . they form the kind of practice that fits well with atta belief (belief in a permanent self living in a permanent world). > C: Would not an ordinary person, a worldling (puthujjana), a begining meditator be described as above? -------------- I think it describes anyone who has not understood the Dhamma. ----------------- <. . .> KH: > > This kind of world could never be known by means of a conventional practice. C: > I do not think the author is teaching 'conventional" or "new age" meditation. Please peruse the complete book. I may well be incorrect. ---------------- Was the author describing conditioned dhammas and explaining their cause and cessation? If so, I would say he was genuinely teaching the eightfold path. However, it is a difficult path to see, and even well-meaning teachers can get it wrong. --------------------- <. . .> C: > I do not think the author is teaching 'conventional" or "new age" meditation. Please peruse the complete book. I may well be incorrect. --------------------- As I see it, the author is implying that samatha and vipassana development - as taught by the Buddha - are formal practices. That's enough to convince me he is not teaching the true Dhamma. ------------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > Instead of trying to become an enlightened "self" we should just understand the present reality as it has been described by the Buddha. > C: Agreed. FWIW, the author continues... The seeing of dependent origination both forwards and backwards leads the mind to the attainment of the "Supramudane Nibbana". This is where there is a major change in one's outlook. One's mind at that time, becomes dispassionate about the belief in a permanent everlasting ego or self. They see from first hand experiential knowledge, that this is just an impersonal process and there is no one controlling the way phenomena arise. These arise because conditions are right for them to arise. In Buddhist terms, this is called 'anatta' or not self nature of existence. One also realizes that no one can possibly attain sainthood by the practice of mere chanting words or phrases or suttas, or the practice of having rites and rituals done for them by someone else or by themselves. One has no more doubt about what is the correct path that leads to the higher stages of purity of mind towards arahatship. This is how one becomes a sotapanna and attains the true path of purification. There is no other way to attain these exalted stages of being. It is only through the realization of the Noble Truths by seeing Dependent Origination. Merely seeing the three characteristics will not now, nor ever be, the experience which leads to the 'Supramundane Nibbana'. This is why all of the Buddha's appear in the world, to show the way to realizing the Noble Truths. --------------------- That part sounds fine to me, except for the last paragraph. Can you tell me why the author was downplaying "seeing the three characteristics?" That level of seeing is the final stage of satipatthana. The only level higher than it is the supramundane path. Ken H #103501 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:44 pm Subject: Re: Pure Merit! dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > > ................ snip > The young brahman Magha once asked the Blessed Buddha: > Giving food, where would the offering be most purified for the donor? > The Blessed One answered: If any open-handed householder, a lordly giver, Magha, seeking merit, looking for merit, sacrifices, giving food and drink to others, such one would achieve most merit, if the recipient is pure and Noble. C: 1. The merit I obtain depends on the pureness of the recipient? True? 2. Does not my intention enter into the equation? No? .............. snip metta (maitri), Chuck #103502 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:54 pm Subject: Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) kenhowardau Hi Alex, --------- <. . .> KH: > > The meditation instructions you have outlined would make perfect sense to someone who had a conventional understanding of reality, wouldn't they? A: > What prevents a person from meditating with knowledge and understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta, namarupa, no-control? ------------- With that kind of knowledge a person could do anything. Without it, however, any attempt at bhavana (mental development) would be a mere ritual. ------------------- KH: > > First do this, then do that, . . . they form the kind of practice that fits well with atta belief (belief in a permanent self living in a permanent world). A: > Not necessarily. How is that different from DSG approach? -------------------- Satipatthana (right understanding) knows the presently arisen dhamma-arammana. Therefore, for satipatthana there cannot possibly be any kind of preparation or step following. There is no time. Right understanding either arises now and performs its functions, or it doesn't. It all depends on conditions. ------------------------ A: > In fact what is DSG approach to awakening? What should be done, what shouldn't be done? ------------------------ No time for doing anything; the present dhamma-arammana will be gone in a millisecond. If the conditions for satipatthana have been put in place then maybe there will be satipatthana now. Otherwise, Buckley's chance! ----------------- A: > Some frequently talk about sati, satipatthana, awareness of dhammas/namarupa, etc. How does awareness of that develops? ----------------- By conditions, of course. A Dhamma student makes time in his life for hearing and discussing Dhamma, but with no expectations. Expectations are for self, not for dhammas. Ken H #103503 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:37 pm Subject: Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > ------------ > KH: > > The meditation instructions you have outlined would make perfect sense to someone who had a conventional understanding of reality, wouldn't they? First do this, then do that, . . . they form the kind of practice that fits well with atta belief (belief in a permanent self living in a permanent world). > > > > C: Would not an ordinary person, a worldling (puthujjana), a begining meditator be described as above? > -------------- > > I think it describes anyone who has not understood the Dhamma. > > ----------------- C: 1. How do you describe ...anyone who has not understood the Dhamma...? 2. What is your definition of ...anyone who has not understood the Dhamma...? 3. What are the practical steps in understanding the Dhamma-Vinaya? ........ snip Warm thanks for your continued help. metta (maitri), Chuck #103504 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:06 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Generosity is an inward reality, it arises with kusala citta. Even when there is no opportunity for the giving of material things to others there are other ways of generosity which can be developed. The appreciation of someone else’s good deeds which can be expressed by words of approval and praise is a way of generosity. I learnt of this way of kusala in Thailand where it is widely practised. People bow their head with clasped hands and say, “anumodana”, which is the Påli term for thanksgiving or satisfaction. In this way they express their appreciation of someone else’s kusala. At such a moment the citta is pure, free from jealousy or stinginess. One may be stingy not only with regard to possessions, but also with regard to words of praise. Appreciation of someone else’s kusala is one way of eliminating stinginess. When one learns of this way of kusala there will be more conditions for speaking about others in a wholesome way. We are inclined to speak about other people’s akusala, but when we have confidence in the benefit of kusala we can change our habits. We can learn to speak in the wholesome way. Another way of generosity is giving other people the opportunity to appreciate one’s good deeds. Is this not a condition for pride? When one tries to impress others there is akusala citta. However, when one has the sincere inclination to help others to have kusala citta it is a way of generosity which is called “the extension of merit”. It depends on the citta whether there is this way of kusala or not. Extension of merit does not mean that other people can receive the results of kusala kamma we performed. Each being receives the result of the kamma he performed himself. Extension of merit means helping others to have kusala citta on account of our kusala. In this way we can also help beings in other planes of existence, provided they are in planes where they can notice our good deeds and are able to appreciate them. In Buddhist countries it is a good custom to express with words and gestures the dedication of one’s good deeds to the departed. When a meal or robes have been offered to monks, one pours water over one’s hands while the monks recite words of blessing. In this way one expresses one’s intention to dedicate one’s kusala to other beings. ****** Nina. #103505 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:10 am Subject: Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, ................. snip > > <. . .> > KH: > > This kind of world could never be known by means of a conventional practice. > > C: > I do not think the author is teaching 'conventional" or "new age" > meditation. Please peruse the complete book. I may well be incorrect. > ---------------- > > KH: Was the author describing conditioned dhammas and explaining their cause and cessation? If so, I would say he was genuinely teaching the eightfold path. > > However, it is a difficult path to see, and even well-meaning teachers can get it wrong. > > --------------------- > <. . .> > C: > I do not think the author is teaching 'conventional" or "new age" > meditation. Please peruse the complete book. I may well be incorrect. > --------------------- > > KH: As I see it, the author is implying that samatha and vipassana development - as taught by the Buddha - are formal practices. That's enough to convince me he is not teaching the true Dhamma. > > ------------------------------- C: 1. What is your definition of "formal practice(s)"? 2. What is your definition of your meditation practice? 3. Would you provide the Tipitaka reference for your meditation practice? Warm thanks for your continued help. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck ............. snip #103506 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:46 am Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, I go first to the end of your post and then we can see whether this solves some of your questions. Op 16-dec-2009, om 6:20 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Thus, monks, the Tathagata — being the same with regard to all > phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized — is 'Such.' And > I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime." > *AN 4.24 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/ > an04.024.than.html > > > Until today my practice has been the contemplation of Suchness in > order to overcome self and klesas. -------- N: When we read this sutta to the end we read: 'I know, I see, tyo that cling not Tathaagatas. ' It is explained in this sutta that the Buddha has not conceit with regard to what he experiences. For us, contemplating suchness may be only thinking of words and names. We can find out for ourselves whether or not thinking helps to overcome self view and kilesas. ------- > V:K Sujin told me that she didn't try nothing. If she is experiencing > the difference between naama and rupa, then it is her experience of > reality and she do what should be done. But when I don't experience > the detailed differences between naama, rupa and citta in the arising > of phenomena, then I understand that I should do the same regarding > Suchness, and not be worried about what I don't see and I don't > know here and now. --------- N: Not trying anything, this is very important. Why? Because citta that experiences arises because of its own conditions and there is no person, no self who could direct citta. Try it. There is seeing now, or hearing. Could you make them arise? They arise because of their own conditions. The truth of anattaa should be remembered from the very beginning until the end. But it takes long to really comprehend it. ------- > V: In short, today I feel some error in leaving the contemplation of > Suchness in order to pursue what is not here to me, because I feel > it is the building of a cognizable and a cognizer to pursue what > is not experienced. When we say "there is not the table but the > seeing of a table" this is of real practical utility to me. But when > we say the table is naama, rupa and citta, it is not what reality > shows to me. ------- N: There is the citta which sees colour or visible object and because of remembrance of former experiences cittas arising in a mind-door process recognize a table. Table is a concept citta thinks of, it is not an ultimate reality, it is not nama or rupa. Citta can have as object concepts or realities. Cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another with such a speed that it seems that seeing and thinking occur all in one moment. A table is not real in the ultimate sense, but when touching, hardness may appear and that is a reality, a rupa experienced through touch. --------- > V:Reality show me a table, not naama, > rupa and citta. In a similar way I experience cold and hot, not the > movement of atoms in different speed. ------- N: Right, atoms are scientific notions we can think of. They are concepts, perhaps very useful concepts but only in the field of science. -------- > V: If somebody already has realized the people inside the TV are not > real, Why the need of pixels, electrons and the rest?. Maybe he will > approach to the television to check the pixels, he will become a TV > technician, or he will remain in the sofa following the film. > Where is the difference at all?. ------ N: Again scientific terms that do not help to know what is really there.I conclude quoting from Kh Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas (on line: ) : Let me know whether things are not clear yet, always useful to discuss these things also for the writer of the letter. How was the end of your trip, and what did Kh Sujin say? NIna. #103507 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:52 am Subject: Re: PROPOSITION: "I'm an undercover agent for the FBI" dhammasaro ............. snip {cut: #103457} #103457 > > > > > > > Good friend colette, No further comment? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103508 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:53 am Subject: Re: PROPOSITION: "I'm an undercover agent for the FBI" dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: #103455 > > > > > Good friend colette, No further comment? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103510 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:42 am Subject: Re: Seeing our blindspots dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote: > > >From: "amara chay" > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com > >To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots > >Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 03:03:24 PST > > > > > >I think it depends on our individual accumulations,... .......... snip C: A repeat of a portion of the snip: >But then I realized (after quite a few years of worrying about it, >mind!) >that it was my defective memory, that other moments of awareness do >arise, >in fact much more, outside crises. >The thing is not to under-estimate to power of sati, it can really >arise at >any moment, with the right conditions, mainly the right >understanding. >And one very good reminder is this group and our discussions, I >think! >Amara > >Interesting and funny story! Of course, in between any moments of >awareness >there's bound to be the doubts and confusions and worrying, >especially in >the beginning when it's not 'firm'...Confidence has to grow >w/understanding >too. I'm also finding the reminders here v.useful. >Sarah C: Still true??? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103511 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Alex) - In a message dated 12/16/2009 1:55:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Alex, --------- <. . .> KH: > > The meditation instructions you have outlined would make perfect sense to someone who had a conventional understanding of reality, wouldn't they? A: > What prevents a person from meditating with knowledge and understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta, namarupa, no-control? ------------- With that kind of knowledge a person could do anything. Without it, however, any attempt at bhavana (mental development) would be a mere ritual. ------------------- KH: > > First do this, then do that, . . . they form the kind of practice that fits well with atta belief (belief in a permanent self living in a permanent world). A: > Not necessarily. How is that different from DSG approach? -------------------- Satipatthana (right understanding) knows the presently arisen dhamma-arammana. ------------------------------------------------------- Does it? Does it do so for you? -------------------------------------------------------- Therefore, for satipatthana there cannot possibly be any kind of preparation or step following. There is no time. Right understanding either arises now and performs its functions, or it doesn't. It all depends on conditions. -------------------------------------------------------- What are the conditions, and how & why do they arise? Are volition and choices irrelevant to that? Is it then "the luck of the draw"? ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ A: > In fact what is DSG approach to awakening? What should be done, what shouldn't be done? ------------------------ No time for doing anything; the present dhamma-arammana will be gone in a millisecond. If the conditions for satipatthana have been put in place then maybe there will be satipatthana now. ------------------------------------------------- How do the conditions get "put in place"? How does that happen. Why might it happen for person A but not person B? You say there is "no time for doing anything". But thinking, contemplating, willing, and attending do happen. There is time for them, for they DO occur. Being aware of what arises can and does occur. There is time for it, because it, in fact, happens. You keep on speaking of the "conditions" for insight, but say nothing of when they occur and when they do not, and, in each case, why. If there is "no time" for doing anything to set up the conditions, then why would they occur? It becomes entirely random ... dumb luck! Without eating, we would die. We DO choose to eat. Is there time to make the choice? Well, evidently there is! -------------------------------------------------- Otherwise, Buckley's chance! ---------------------------------------------------- Without processes of choice occuring, choice of appropriate action, what occurs is random in exactly the sense of being independent of choices. An assertion that such an absence (due to "no time") is the way things are is an assertion of the impotence of kamma. The Buddha had a name for such a perspective. It is "wrong view". --------------------------------------------------- ----------------- A: > Some frequently talk about sati, satipatthana, awareness of dhammas/namarupa, etc. How does awareness of that develops? -------------------------------------------------- Yes. How does it? ------------------------------------------------- ----------------- By conditions, of course. ----------------------------------------------- Except for volition, of course! ----------------------------------------------- A Dhamma student makes time in his life for hearing and discussing Dhamma, but with no expectations. Expectations are for self, not for dhammas. -------------------------------------------------- How does the student "make that time"? Is there no choosing? And why, when it comes to action, do you ONLY discuss such conventional events as hearing and discussing? --------------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103512 From: "Icaro" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:53 am Subject: Re: Far Flung Whimsy: "that's the end of that" icarofranca Hi Colette! > > Was the Abhidharma produced by the deity named Maya, the god of >ILLUSIONS? If >so, then why is the Abhidharma so applicable and wise in >so many >aspects of >"existance" yet blind and ignorant to it's own >failures? Not Maya, for sure, dear Colette...but if you check the Avesta/Zoroastrian classical works - written more or less at the same age - you will note some intriguing concordances. Being not alike the Suttanta works, the Abhidhamma follows a structural thread of "reasoning" (if you pardon me the expression) very similar to Avesta´s, with a difference that marks the Abhidhamma as a legitimate theravada work: while one try to keep a very unstable balance between good and evil ( Ahura Mazda,the good, and Ahriman - sounds like Aryaman, the king of the Elephant in Hindu Mythology...), Abdhidhamma states the existence of an equilibrium point on Dhamma. The very first stanza on Dhammasangani 1. Kusala Dhamma Akusala Dhamma Abhyakatha Dhamma is very similar to the very beginnig of the "Yasna" text: "I profess myself a Mazda-worshipper and a Zoroastrian, opposing the Daevas, accepting the Ahuric doctrine." but makes a stand on declaring the role of "Abhyakattha Dhamma", a "Dhamma which is neither Kusala or Akusala". My best regards and Mettaya! Ícaro #103513 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dinesh' questions nilovg Dear Dinesh, Op 15-dec-2009, om 4:05 heeft Dinesh het volgende geschreven: > Let's assume that this poor fellow who thinks that money is > everything comes from a non-religious background so he's not > attached to any religious belief and the only escape he knows from > his day to day sufferings is relying on money. And he thinks money > is everything without lobha. In other words his liberator/God is > money and he doesn't desire his God. He only has 'faith' in this > omnipotent savior. In that case could that specific citta be one of > the cittas rooted in Moha? ------- N: He still clings to his money, there is citta rooted in lobha. In between there are also cittas rooted in moha. There are so many cittas succeeding one another. -------- > > D: And, when the time permits could you please explain the > following two cittas rooted in delusion in detail giving me several > daily-life examples if possible? > > 1 the one connected with doubts > 2 the one connected with restlessness ------- N: requoting from the Tiika to the Visuddhimagga: Intro to Vis. 93 and Tiika. There are two types of cittas rooted in ignorance, moha-muula-cittas. They have moha as their only root. They are: 1) accompanied by indifferent feeling, associated with doubt upekkhaasahagata.m vicikicchaasampayutta.m 2) accompanied by indifferent feeling, associated with restlessness upekkhaasahagata.m uddhaccasampayutta.m Vicikicchaa is doubt about ultimate realities, about naama and ruupa, about cause and result, the four noble Truths, the Dependent origination. It is doubt about the Triple Gem, doubt about it whether enlightenment can be attained. The Expositor (II, p. 344) states: N: Thus, it is doubt about paramattha dhammas, not doubt about matters such as the weather. 2. With restlessness, uddhacca: < As to restlessness or agitation, this is a translation of uddhacca. Uddhacca is not what we mean by the conventional term agitation, or excitement. Restlessness arises with each akusala citta and at that moment there is forgetfulness of kusala, there is not the steadiness and calm of kusala. Unwise attention is its proximate cause. The Tiika explains that when uddhacca arises with the citta rooted in moha it is predominant among the associated dhammas. Therefore, the second type of citta rooted in ignorance is classified as associated with restlessness, and here restlessness is mentioned expressively. We read in the Expositor (II, p. 346) about restlessness that is translated here as distraction: <‘Distraction’ is the mode of mind when excited, flurried. ‘Disquietude’ is unquiet. ‘Agitation’ is a throwing about of mind...> When we read the conventional terms excitement or agitation that describe uddhacca, we should remember that when it arises with the second type of citta rooted in ignorance there is only indifferent feeling that accompanies it.> < It is difficult to know when there is the second type of citta rooted in ignorance, associated with restlessness and accompanied by indifferent feeling. However, it arises very often in between the cittas rooted in attachment and those rooted in aversion. When akusala kamma is committed motivated by attachment and aversion, there are also many moments of the second type of citta rooted in ignorance in between. The Tiika explains that this type of citta, although it cannot produce vipaaka in the form of an unhapppy rebirth, it does produce vipaaka in the course of life by way of unpleasant experiences through the senses.> N: It is difficult to give examples of this type of citta. Sure, there are many moments of this citta in bertween other kinds of akusala cutta. Nina. #103514 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dinesh' questions upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/16/2009 9:15:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Vicikicchaa is doubt about ultimate realities, about naama and ruupa, about cause and result, the four noble Truths, the Dependent origination. It is doubt about the Triple Gem, doubt about it whether enlightenment can be attained. The Expositor (II, p. 344) states: N: Thus, it is doubt about paramattha dhammas, not doubt about matters such as the weather. =============================== Where does it clearly indicate that this oertains to doubt about paramattha dhammas? What about doubt with regard to the triple gem, which, BTW, is conventional? With metta, Howard #103515 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to practise. was: The Anapanasati Sutta nilovg Dear Alex, Op 15-dec-2009, om 23:23 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > Some frequently talk about sati, satipatthana, awareness of dhammas/ > namarupa, etc. Nina and others frequently talk about "this happens > in daily life, etc". Ok. Exactly how does one practice and develop > sati? ------- N: I could not help laughing, Alex. Yes, just daily life. How to practice? I always give the same answer. Listen more, discuss more about nama and rupa, about the objects of awareness and right understanding. Anything appearing now does so in daily life. We get to know 'ourselves' better. How else but in daily life? We come to know how ignorant we are.This is the beginning of the development of understandin you ask about. We may say and repeat that we understand what anattaa is, but do we understand that the seeing appearing now is non-self, that it truly is not my seeing? Perhaps we only know the word or story of anatta, but not the characteristic. I had a little shock the other day, hearing Kh Sujin ask whether there is an idea of self listening to Dhamma talks. We think that listening is good, but see how fast the idea of 'I,I,I' comes in. It is beneficial to notice this and without the Buddha's teaching we would never know anything about the different cittas. Nina. #103516 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Dhammasangani nilovg Dear Alex, Op 14-dec-2009, om 19:29 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > Can lobhamulacitta have moha rooted citta simultaneously? Only that > way can there be somanassasahagataṃ. ------- N: There can arise only one citta at a time. Moha cetasika accompanies each akusala citta, and thus also lobhamuulacitta. Therefore moha and somanassa can arise together in this case. > > > -------- > > A: How can moho arise with samatho or samÄdhindriyaṃ in one > citta? > > -------- > > N: It is ekaggataa cetasika or samaadhi. This cetasika arises with > > each citta. The Co, the Expositor (p. 333) gives as example: > 'there is calm', etc., calm is due to the suppression of > >distraction in other objects. It lifts or supports the mind in the > >occurrence of immorality--this is 'support'. 'Non-distraction' > means >it is not distracted.> > > ------- > > A: Is samatho and ekaggata same or different? -------- N: We generally use samatha to denote the development of wholesome calm, away from akusala. However, remember what Sarah quoted from the dhammasangani, U Kine's translation: Thus, here we see that even the word saaaamatho is used in the case of wrong concentration. We have to remember the context. -------- > > A:While ekaggata cetasika is present in all citta. As I understand > it, samÄ?dhi is not, especially if it is citta with restlessness. ------- N: As you see in the quote, Samaadhi is used for wrong concentration, and it is even used as just a synonym for ekaggata cetasika, thus present with each type of citta. Wrong concentration can be very subtle, hard to differentiate from right concentration. Lobha comes in disguise all the time in our daily life (daily life, ha ha). Nina. #103517 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dinesh' questions nilovg Hi Howard, It is useful you ask this. Op 16-dec-2009, om 15:26 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Where does it clearly indicate that this oertains to doubt about > paramattha dhammas? What about doubt with regard to the triple gem, > which, BTW, > is conventional? ------- N: See the summing up: <, the four noble Truths, the Dependent origination. It is doubt about the Triple Gem, doubt about it whether enlightenment can be attained.> Now as to the Triple Gem, what exactly is the doubt about? Whether the Buddha attained enlightenment or not, whether there is an ariyan Sangha, etc. As to Dhamma: whether there are lokuttara dhammas. Whether there is a way that pa~n~naa can be developed leading to the eradication of kilesas. Enlightenment: the arising of lokuttara cittas. All this has nothing to do with stories, it pertains to the world of paramattha dhammas, to ultimate truth. Is there a Path? What is this Path? Cetasikas, thus, paramattha dhammas. Buddha: it is not a name given by parents. The word Buddha represents his excellent qualities. These are sobhana cetasikas developed to the topmost degree. Nina. #103518 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:23 am Subject: Re: Angry Monks moellerdieter Hi Chuck, you wrote: 'I usually see him when I would spend a weekly 12-hour shift with His Holiness, The Supreme Patriarch' D: this is the first time I hear again from H.H. the Supreme Patriarch , who I assume is now hospitalized since a couple of years. I had the pleasure to meet him twice and would be glad to learn more about his well being.. with Metta Dieter #103520 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dinesh' questions upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - When I wrote the post copied below, I was rushing to leave the house to drop off Rita for her hospital Patient Relations volunteer work, and I missed giving a salutation! I apologize for the oversight. With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/16/2009 10:12:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, It is useful you ask this. Op 16-dec-2009, om 15:26 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Where does it clearly indicate that this oertains to doubt about > paramattha dhammas? What about doubt with regard to the triple gem, > which, BTW, > is conventional? ------- N: See the summing up: <, the four noble Truths, the Dependent origination. It is doubt about the Triple Gem, doubt about it whether enlightenment can be attained.> Now as to the Triple Gem, what exactly is the doubt about? Whether the Buddha attained enlightenment or not, whether there is an ariyan Sangha, etc. As to Dhamma: whether there are lokuttara dhammas. Whether there is a way that pa~n~naa can be developed leading to the eradication of kilesas. Enlightenment: the arising of lokuttara cittas. All this has nothing to do with stories, it pertains to the world of paramattha dhammas, to ultimate truth. ------------------------------------------ Not so, Nina. The Buddha is pa~n~natti. His attaining enlightenment is a story. The ariyan sangha is pa~n~natti. All conventional! --------------------------------------------- Is there a Path? What is this Path? Cetasikas, thus, paramattha dhammas. Buddha: it is not a name given by parents. The word Buddha represents his excellent qualities. -------------------------------------------- The word 'Buddha' and the word 'buddha' each represents a person who has done specific things. This is conventional. -------------------------------------------- These are sobhana cetasikas developed to the topmost degree. Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103521 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) ashkenn2k Dear Chuck >A beginning meditator does not immediately have the wisdom (panna) to understand anger; does one? KO: Whether you are a mediator or not, the correct view is important. Anatta, anicca and dukkha are fundamental in Buddhism. They lead to dispassion. Whenever I have a doubt on any dhamma issue, I will go back to the basic, the 4NT Sutta and the Not-self Sutta. >C: Would you agree the handbook is for a new meditator and not for a Dhamma-Vinaya scholar? KO: Chuck, honestly, I am more concern about you learning the wrong thing from the book than the book or the author. Dont follow a book just because the author is a scholar. People could be a scholar if they study hard enough and do enough research work, but do they understand the dhamma. >C: Well, are not all "conditioned whatevers" unsatisfactory/ suffering (dukkha)? KO: Yes all conditioned dhamma are dukkha. But replacing a thought with a smile is not Buddhism. Buddhism is about anatta, anicca and dukkha, understanding the characteristics of dhamma and not concern about replacing one thought with another. True happiness only arise when defilements are eradicated . >C: Even for an ordinary person, worldling (puthujjana) ? Even for a beginning meditator? KO: More importantly for a beginner. Dont be like me who spent almost a decade of my life to realise that I am been wrong in my approach to Buddhism. Start on the right foot is important and more so for a beginner. >There is no place for a metaphor or simile in the Dhamma-Vinaya? KO: If it is correct, I will not have commented. >Is there is no place for "gradual teachings"? KO: Yes there is a place for it but it is base on the 4NT. >C: I sincerely appreciate you reviewing the complete book and presenting your analysis. KO: Chuck, I usually dont review a book when the first start is already wrong. There is no need for further analysis. But whether you learn meditation or Abhidhamma, right understanding of the dhamma come first and foremost. Always go back to the basic. What is the cause of suffering. We cannot eradicate suffering when the practise lead to increase in suffering. That to me is very wrong. With Metta Ken O #103522 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) ashkenn2k Dear Alex >In fact what is DSG approach to awakening? What should be done, what shouldn't be done? > >Some frequently talk about sati, satipatthana, awareness of dhammas/namarupa, etc. > >How does awareness of that develops? KO: Awareness develop everytime there is understanding of the characteristics of the nama and rupa. There is no special way, just listening and reading, and investigate and reflect them in your everyday life. Because dhamma is in everyday life, every moment when one awake. Be truthful, be determine. Cheers Ken O #103523 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas ashkenn2k Dear Nina Ken H, not me on the reply :-) I only do the posting for Reality and Concepts Cheers Ken O #103524 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: How to practise. was: The Anapanasati Sutta truth_aerator Dear Nina, Thank you for your reply and clear answer. With metta, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: #103515 > #103525 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:26 am Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas ashkenn2k Dear Vince > In short, today I feel some error in leaving the contemplation of > Suchness in order to pursue what is not here to me, because I feel > it is the building of a cognizable and a cognizer to pursue what > is not experienced. When we say "there is not the table but the > seeing of a table" this is of real practical utility to me. But when > we say the table is naama, rupa and citta, it is not what reality > shows to me. At least until today. Reality show me a table, not naama, > rupa and citta. In a similar way I experience cold and hot, not the > movement of atoms in different speed. KO: Understanding of nama and rupa starts conventionally. When you experience hot and cold, it is a tactile rupa. When you see a table, it is a visible rupa. We should never deconstruct the concept, a table. Dont try to see it as a cognizable and a cognizer. Dont try to see the detail. Just understand rupa first. > > If somebody already has realized the people inside the TV are not > real, Why the need of pixels, electrons and the rest?. Maybe he will > approach to the television to check the pixels, he will become a TV > technician, or he will remain in the sofa following the film. > Where is the difference at all?. KO: The people inside the TV set is not real, But the visible rupa of people inside the TV set is real. This is the difference. There is no need to be technician or expert in dhamma to understand there is a visible rupa. When one slowly understand it as rupa, then slowly one will understand that there is no self or being in rupa. Whatever self or being in rupa is just our mental construct which is a habit we obtain since beginless time. Old habits die hard, mental construct will arise again and again. This will dampen our spirit if we try to hard to see it as rupa and nama. Take it naturally and be patient. With metta Ken O #103527 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "Delighted to discuss some subtle points with you!" Scott: I also think it is very valuable to discuss Dhamma in this fashion. Discussion for discussion's sake. I don't think there are limits to what should or should not be discussed in terms of where on the Path a given aspect might be. It makes no sense to not discuss the first vipassanaa-~naa.na, for example, simply because it is so far beyond one's reach. There is value in coming to an intellectual understanding of all the levels of pa~n~naa's development, and no need to imagine that such a pursuit is done in order for something else to happen. Since there is no practice that can be done by a person, there being no person, this is a non-issue. Sarah: And also after the first v-n at moments of ignorance (most the time)- back to normal. Nicca-sa~n~na hasn't been eradicated. Scott: Okay, and this seems to make the point that while the first vipassanaa-~naa.na is far beyond ordinary undeveloped pa~n~naa, it is even farther from the Path. Knowing the order and getting some sense as to the relative levels of development of pa~n~naa allows one to consider that 'practice' and thinking of 'attainments' is less than useful. So much development of pa~n~naa is required to reach only the first level of vipassanaa-~naa.na, and this is really so very far from the end. Sarah: "Namas can only be experienced in the mind-door processes, of course..." Scott: Does pa~n~naa operate in the sense-door process? If so, what are it's objects? My understanding is that no process that is related to the development of pa~n~naa occurs in the sense-door process but only in the mind-door. In other words, naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naa.na can only occur in the mind-door. Can you clarify? S: "The point about light is not this, but that whenever any object other than visible object is experienced, there is no light. Developed insight may be able to know bhavanga cittas, it's true and certainly more advanced insight will understand the falling away of cittas, but first namas and rupas have to be clearly known and distinguished over and over again and this can only occur in the mind-door processes where both namas and rupas can be known." Scott: Got it. This clarifies my question above, in part. How would pa~n~naa know bhavanga citta? S: "It's true that cittas are 'dark' and 'silent', but I don't think it's helpful to think about 'the gap' between processes. Better to understand the reality appearing now - the seeing, the visible object or the thinking, for example." Scott: Okay, but there seemed to be, as Phil noted, some excitement in the discussion regarding imagining that a moment of naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naa.na would be such a radical shift from 'normal' perception. Perhaps there is little use getting all caught up in daydreaming and imagining such a moment of consciousness, as if it would be retained, and experienced as a whole to be remembered at all. S: "(mind, these are just my understandings to date:-)) Yes, I think this sums it up very nicely. To turn it round also, by understanding more and more about nama and rupa when they appear - i.e. understanding the characteristic of seeing, of visible object, of hearing, of sound (not the words, of course!) - it becomes clearer and clearer what is meant by the sense door and mind door processes." Scott: Understood, just discussing. So pa~n~naa understands naama then ruupa and so on back and forth such that, over repeated moments the distinction becomes clear. I'm still not sure how it is, by this process, that the mind-door becomes clear. I'd guess it would be by seeing beyond the 'whole' and into the moment at which sense-door objects come into the mind-door to be known. Sincerely, Scott. #103529 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:38 am Subject: Re: Angry Monks dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > you wrote: > > 'I usually see him when I would spend a weekly 12-hour shift with His Holiness, The Supreme Patriarch' > > > D: this is the first time I hear again from H.H. the Supreme Patriarch , who I assume is now hospitalized since a couple of years. > I had the pleasure to meet him twice and would be glad to learn more about his well being.. > > with Metta Dieter > .................. C: Good friend Dieter, et al Yes, I am and was most fortunate to spend a weekly twelve-hour time with His Holiness, The Supreme Patriarch of The Thai Sangha during my ordination. Especially more so, as I am a highly opinionated, incorrigible and irascible Texican!!! Although he is at the hospital, he is well and alert. At 90-plus years, he is somewhat physically frail. We all are alert to keep him well. On every visit to Thailand, with my ajahn, I visit him. He ordained my ajahn. Perhaps, next week I will visit him. It depends whether my head cold has ceased. Every afternoon the faithful visit him in a private lobby. The number varies from some twenty to overflowing... Sincere warm thanks for commenting. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103530 From: "Icaro" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Dhammasangani icarofranca Hi Nina! Respectfully butting in! Self-hearing Dhamma only could increase unwholesome-states of mind, like "I am speaking", " These are my words" and copyright... >It > is beneficial to notice this and without the Buddha's teaching we > would never know anything about the different cittas. > Nina. That´s one of the more important aspects of Buddha´s dispensation. In the suttanta works we are acquainted with a right understanding about Dhamma at (non-)hinduistic ways. In the Abhidhamma we get some insights about Zoroastrian ideas about good and bad at an ontological level - on the style of "Answers and Questions" of Dhammasangani´s second part, the Vibhanga and so on we read about many answers of the question "What´s Dhamma" in a Kusala-Akusala frame, going further the Avesta concepts of a good kusala-god-guy fighting an evil akusala-god-guy, with the kusala-god-guy at last cleaning the defilements of the world. In these aspect the Abhidhamma is the real precious vault of Dhamma! Mettaya, Icaro #103531 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Dhammasangani truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 14-dec-2009, om 19:29 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > > > Can lobhamulacitta have moha rooted citta simultaneously? Only that > > way can there be somanassasahagataṃ. > ------- > N: There can arise only one citta at a time. Moha cetasika > accompanies each akusala citta, and thus also lobhamuulacitta. > Therefore moha and somanassa can arise together in this case. > > Thank you very much. > > > -------- > > > A: How can moho arise with samatho or samÄdhindriyaá¹Æ' in one > > citta? > > > -------- > > > N: It is ekaggataa cetasika or samaadhi. This cetasika arises with > > > each citta. The Co, the Expositor (p. 333) gives as example: > > 'there is calm', etc., calm is due to the suppression of > > >distraction in other objects. It lifts or supports the mind in the > > >occurrence of immorality--this is 'support'. 'Non-distraction' > > means >it is not distracted.> > > > ------- > > > ------- > N: As you see in the quote, Samaadhi is used for wrong >concentration, and it is even used as just a synonym for ekaggata >cetasika, thus present with each type of citta. While it is true that concentration can (and often is) wrong. It doesn't mean that development of concentration is Bad. Buddha has often praised it. Also considering that a person can have wrong concentration, this means that we don't have right concentration with every citta. We are not in jhana every single moment (even though there is only 1 object happening at a time). > > Wrong concentration can be very subtle, hard to differentiate from > right concentration. I agree. >Lobha comes in disguise all the time in our daily life (daily life, >ha ha). > > Nina. Dear Nina. Buddha has praised physical seclusion very much. We often read about wealthy guys leaving their daily life (of maintaining a harem or being rulers or from a wealthy family) and joining the ascetic and renunciate life. The fact that they "had those accumulations" is beside the point. The Buddha didn't forbid physical renunciation, and it WAS part of the path. Leaving large or little wealth behind was a part of becoming a monk or nun and striving toward Arhatship. That was a valid path and Buddha didn't forbid it, it was part of His path. With metta, Alex #103532 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: #103521 > > > > ........................snip Good friend Ken O, Please forgive for not being able to frame my questions correctly. Imho opinion, you were not responsive to my questions above. Again, I apology. It appears even at my very first two questions were not clear!!! [bummers] What were my very first questions? Let us review... I initially asked: "Good friends all, I need your help. Have any of you perused this book by the said Venerable? If you have, 1. Do you agree? Why? 2. Do you disagree? Why?" Question to Ken O: Good friend Ken O, sincerely please help me. How can I write two questions more clear? Since you wrote about many ancillary topics; but, ignored my two simple initial questions, I failed to communicate with you!!! Please accept my sincere apology. Awaiting your solution. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103534 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: How to practise. was: The Anapanasati Sutta dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: #103515 > > > > Good friends all, May I repeat? "We come to know how ignorant we are." peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103535 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to practise. was: The Anapanasati Sutta nilovg Dear Chuck, good to have you here. Nina. Op 16-dec-2009, om 19:30 heeft charlest het volgende geschreven: > Good friends all, > > May I repeat? > > "We come to know how ignorant we are." #103536 From: "Dieter" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:25 am Subject: Re: Angry Monks moellerdieter Dear Chuck, thank you very much for your prompt reply. I am glad to learn that His Holiness is well and alert despite being somewhat physically fragile. After a long time residing in Bangkok (ordained for one passa at Wat Srakesa ) I returned to Germany 10 years ago . I shall come to Bkk probably in March next year and would be pleased to meet you. with Metta Dieter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: #103529 > > > #103537 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: How to practise. was: The Anapanasati Sutta dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > good to have you here. > Nina. .................. snip Chuck: Sincere very warm thanks. May you and yours have a very happy holiday and holy season. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103538 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Angry Monks nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 16-dec-2009, om 20:25 heeft Dieter het volgende geschreven: > After a long time residing in Bangkok (ordained for one passa at > Wat Srakesa ) I returned to Germany 10 years ago . > I shall come to Bkk probably in March next year and would be > pleased to meet you. ------ N: Why not second half Febr. when Sarah, Jon, I, and many other friends are there? Nina. #103539 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 1. nilovg Dear Colette, Op 14-dec-2009, om 20:27 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > I'd like to thank you, for this VIPISSANA (insight) which I can now > be assured to find a "fruitful" RESULTANT PHENOMENA when I finally > get the chance to explore your position. ------- N: You are welcome. Thanking you for your kind words, Nina. #103540 From: "Mike" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: How to practise. was: The Anapanasati Sutta mikenz66 Dear Nina, Mike: Thank you for your nice post: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: #103515 > Mike: Am I understanding correctly from what you say that you DO pay attention to the sensations, feelings, mindstates, thoughts and so on that arise in daily life? You are not just analysing the Buddha's teachings, but using those teachings to inform your observation of your daily experience? Mike: This may sound like a really silly question, but I have to ask it because I see so many posts here (not from you) that appear to me to be suggesting that any sort of "observation" is pointless (because of the speed of citta, not-self, etc, etc). I may, of course, be misunderstanding them... Metta Mike #103541 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:13 pm Subject: Re: Angry Monks moellerdieter Dear Nina , you wrote: 'Why not second half Febr. when Sarah, Jon, I, and many other friends are there?' that is a pity if I should miss you all but as it looks like I will manage to arrive in BKK March 11 earliest ... with Metta Dieter #103542 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:15 pm Subject: Re: Angry Monks dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter" wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > > thank you very much for your prompt reply. > > I am glad to learn that His Holiness is well and alert despite being somewhat physically fragile. > > After a long time residing in Bangkok (ordained for one passa at Wat Srakesa ) I returned to Germany 10 years ago . > I shall come to Bkk probably in March next year and would be pleased to meet you. > > > with Metta Dieter > > > C: Good friend Dieter, et al Ah, the beginning of the Bangkok weather warmth - March. Unfortunately, I return to USA Feb 3. However, I may quickly return as this winter is predicted to be colder than normal. In fact, Houston, Texas had snow the earliest in recorded history. I do enjoy Houston in the summer as it reminds me of Bangkok at its greatest warmth!!! Hence, I may well meet you in March. What is the length of your stay? Hope to meet you soon. metta (maitri), Chuck Post script: Did you share your bhikkhu experiences on this forum? Please advise. I will search for them. Warm thanks. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > ................. deleted by C. #103543 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:26 pm Subject: Re: emptiness of dhammas dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, > > > ........... snip > > > > Question: The above is agreeable with you? > > ------ > > > > Yes, that's the way I understand it. The punctuation could have been better, though. As it is, a reader could get the impression 'paramattha' meant 'ultimate realities' instead of just the adjective 'ultimate.' There is also ultimate truth (paramattha saca) ultimate speech (paramattha vacana) and ultimate teaching (paramattha desana). > > > > Ken H > > > > C: Good friend Ken H, warm thanks for the further information. I will check the additional Pali terms. > ............. snip Good friend Ken H, et al Gee, I knew those Pali terms so well some months ago... How quickly dis ole mangy coot fergits... jes two, two mani Agave worms frum der Mexican Mezcal en my Texas university sophomoric daze... Sincere warm thanks for your patience... peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103544 From: Vince Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:31 pm Subject: Re[4]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina: > N: When we read this sutta to the end we read: 'I know, I see, tyo > that cling not Tathaagatas. ' It is explained in this sutta that the > Buddha has not conceit with regard to what he experiences. For us, > contemplating suchness may be only thinking of words and names. We > can find out for ourselves whether or not thinking helps to overcome > self view and kilesas. thinking of words and names are not apart from Suchness. In the same way that there is seeing instead "I see" there is thinking instead "I think". I experience thinking but not naama and rupa, then I can take thinking as an object of contemplation. But regarding naama and rupa, they are not an immediate object for my experience. The immediate object is "hardness" but not the naama and rupa underlying hardness. > N: Not trying anything, this is very important. Why? Because citta > that experiences arises because of its own conditions and there is no > person, no self who could direct citta. Try it. There is seeing now, > or hearing. Could you make them arise? They arise because of their > own conditions. The truth of anattaa should be remembered from the > very beginning until the end. But it takes long to really comprehend it. precisely from here my doubt. If we don't try anything, then I cannot see the need to pursue what is not here and now. At least to me, here and now there is a table but not citta, naama and rupa. > N: There is the citta which sees colour or visible object and because > of remembrance of former experiences cittas arising in a mind-door > process recognize a table. Table is a concept citta thinks of, it is > not an ultimate reality, it is not nama or rupa. Citta can have as > object concepts or realities. > Cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another with such a speed > that it seems that seeing and thinking occur all in one moment. > A table is not real in the ultimate sense, but when touching, > hardness may appear and that is a reality, a rupa experienced through > touch. perhaps the use of word "ultimate" can be the problem. K.Sujin writes that rupa is a sankhara dhamma and it arises because conditions. It means that also rupa is an emptiness lacking of any substance. Any cognizable becomes substantial in dependence of a -self who perform the cognition. If rupa would be an ultimate, substantial reality, then it would mean the attachment to the self is not eradicated. In my daily experience, there is hardness but not rupa. Until today, at least to me, rupa is an explanation in order to understand the empty nature of hardness. Because my experience is about what we call hardness, not about rupa. I don't mean rupa is false. However, if rupa exists then its nature should be emptiness. If we are contemplating a forest, maybe it become enough support to realize anatta and emptiness. Somebody can tell us "in ultimate sense, there are trees but not a forest". But if we are very far and we cannot see the trees, then just we are believing that person because what she says sounds logic. However, the fact is that we are experiencing a forest, not a tree. If the seeing of forest is enough to realize anatta and emptiness, Should we leave this support (an object of experience) in order to adopt another one (the tree) based in what we are not experiencing here and now?. It is not the building of a cognizable? > I conclude quoting from Kh Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas > (on line: ) : > designate what we see or hear. Moreover, it is evident that the > different colours, sounds, odours, cold, heat, softness, hardness, > motion or pressure, even though their characteristics have such > variety, could not appear if there were no dhammas which can > experience them, namely, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, > experiencing cold, heat, softness, hardness, motion or pressure, > knowing the meaning of the different things and thinking. > The dhammas which can experience different things such as the dhamma > which experiences colour, the dhamma which experiences sound, the > dhamma which experiences odour, flavour, cold, heat, softness, > hardness, motion, pressure, the dhamma which knows the meaning of the > different things and the dhamma which thinks about different > subjects, all these dhammas which experience different things have > been classified by the Sammaasambuddha as citta, consciousness.> I understand all the names in that classification are concepts in some degree, because all these dhammas cannot be substantial. They are devoid of a -self then all them are Suchness, an emptiness. When we are forced to talk about the plurality which lacks of substantial individualities, then we are forced to leave the truth, and then we can explain naama, rupa and citta as ultimate realities. But we are saying this from this conventional side. As the text says, all these dhammas have been classified by the Sammaasambuddha as citta, consciousness. And emptiness is not citta, because emptiness is devoid of name and form. I understand there is an important difference: when I take Suchness like the object of contemplation, this object is here-and-now to me and also with this object I'm embracing all dhammas. If I take nama and rupa, I'm using something which is not part of my immediate experience (be hardness or whatever). I read in "A survey..." that the discriminative experience of citta, naama and rupa in front the phenomena arises in higher states of development, So I wonder about using something which is not an object of experience in my reality. > How was the end of your trip, and what did Kh Sujin say? oh, very well, thanks:) About my question of where panna is accumulated, Sujin told me it is accumulated in the present moment. About my questions underlying the knowledge of the reality according naama and rupa like something able to feed -self and delusion, Sujin told me that she didn't try nothing. About my terrible English level she had a Buddha patience. I end my trip in a remote island with "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" in company of crabs and other beings. Hope I can see her in a close future, best, #103545 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:44 pm Subject: Parajika in the Vinaya Pitaka. Was: Angry Monks dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > >............ snip > > As we know, there are four parajika offenses for monks: Incelibacy, > Stealing, Killing and Claiming false attainments. These are the >most > serious offenses for monks. Let us look a the third parajika >offense > in more detail. It reads, "Should any bhikkhu intentionally deprive >a > human being of life, or search for an assassin for him, or praise >the > advantages of death, or incite him to die (saying): "My good man, > what use is this evil, miserable life to you? Death would be better > for you than life," or with such an idea in mind, such a purpose in > mind, should in various ways praise the advantages of death or >incite > him to die, he also is defeated and no longer in affiliation." > > In my simplistic way of thinking, if encouraging another to commit > suicide is a parajika offense, a monk should not be allowed to commit > suicide themselves. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > >........................ snip Good friends all, As pointed out above, there are four Parajika offenses in the Vinaya Pitaka. I have three questions: 1. Have you ever given an illegal copy of a program, etc. to a bhikkhu? 2. Has a bhikkhu ever give you an illegal copy of a program, etc? 3. Is that stealing? A Parajika offense? [Excerpt] Modern cases. The modern world contains many forms of ownership and monetary exchange that did not exist in the time of the Buddha, and so contains many forms of stealing that did not exist then either. Here are a handful of cases that come to mind as examples of ways in which the standards of this rule might be applied to modern situations. Infringement of copyright. The international standards for copyright advocated by UNESCO state that infringement of copyright is tantamount to theft. However, in practice, an accusation of copyright infringement is judged not as a case of theft but as one of "fair use," the issue being the extent to which a person in possession of an item may fairly copy that item for his/her own use or to give or sell to another person without compensating the copyright owner. Thus even a case of "unfair use" would not fulfill the factors of effort and object under this rule, in that — in creating a copy — one is not taking possession of an item that does not belong to one, and one is not depriving the owners of something already theirs. At most, the copyright owners might claim that they are being deprived of compensation owed to them, but as we have argued above, the principle of compensation owed does not rightly belong under this rule. In the terminology of the Canon, a case of unfair use would fall under either of two categories — acting for the non-gain of the copyright owners or wrong livelihood — categories that entail a dukkaṭa under the general rule against misbehavior (Cv.V.36). They would also make one eligible for a disciplinary transaction, such as reconciliation or banishment (see BMC2, Chapter 20), which the Community could impose if it saw the infringement as serious enough to merit such a punishment. Copying computer software. The agreement made when installing software on a computer, by which one agrees not to give the software to anyone else, comes under contract law. As such, a breach of that contract would be treated under the category of "deceit," described above, which means that a bhikkhu who gives software to a friend in defiance of this contract would incur the penalty for a broken promise. As for the friend — assuming that he is a bhikkhu — the act of receiving the software and putting it on his computer would be treated under the precedent, mentioned above, of the bhikkhus receiving fruit from an orchard groundkeeper not authorized to give it away: He would incur no offense. However, as he must agree to the contract before installing the software on his computer, he would incur a penalty for a broken promise if he then gave the software to someone else in defiance of the contract. [End extract] From: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc1/bmc1.ch04.html Dicussion? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103546 From: Vince Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:06 pm Subject: Re[4]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Hi Ken thanks for your thoughts, you wrote: > KO: Understanding of nama and rupa starts conventionally. When > you experience hot and cold, it is a tactile rupa. When you see a > table, it is a visible rupa. We should never deconstruct the > concept, a table. Dont try to see it as a cognizable and a > cognizer. Dont try to see the detail. Just understand rupa first. but the contact with the object is previous and needed before start the understanding process. I don't have experience of rupa. When I touch a table, the thought "a table" arises in me, not "rupa". Or maybe it is a convention. I mean; we can use the convention of the solid, liquid and gas states, and then our experience of the outer phenomena of the world will be right. And when we touch a table we can know "solid" instead "table". But my question is: Should we transform the name of the first experience of objects in order to realize the truth?. Because finally the table is so empty as rupa. We can be attached or detached of the table wether we use "table" or "rupa", being this a problem of the dhamma tool that we are using. I think if some person is experiencing rupa, then he should realize the emptiness of rupa. But at least this is not my case, because I'm experiencing a table, not rupa. Do you think the experience of the things "as they are" is not enough to realize emptiness?. According same K.Sujin, citta, cetasika and rupa ara sankhara dhamma and they exists because conditions. Therefore, finally there is not difference regarding taking a table or taking rupa. I believe we are assigning rupa an ultimate level of "reality" from this conventional level in order to understand. I don't mean rupa doesn't exists. Just I wonder that Sujin writes the direct experience of naama and rupa appears in higher states of progress, then I wonder about building cognizables which are not here and now. best, #103547 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:10 pm Subject: Gentle and Controlled! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Gentleness and Self-Control Balances the Mind! The wanderer Sabhiya once asked the Blessed Buddha : What defines a Bhikkhu, a gentle one, a self-controlled, and an enlightenened one? The Blessed Buddha Gotama answered: He who has reached calm stilling by a path developed by himself, who has crossed over all doubt and uncertainty, who by giving up both this life & any new becoming, who has lived the Noble life, whose renewed existence has become fully destroyed, such one is a Bhikkhu.... Any recluse, who does not harm anyone in the whole world, who just looks on every object in aware equanimity, imperturbable, humble, without pride, is a gentle one... Any one whose senses are all controlled, whether the object is internal or external, who has understood both this world and the next, who being developed just awaits his last moment, like a waiter waits for his salary, such quiet one, is self-controlled! Having comprehended all fabrications, journeying-on, dying here & re-arising there, whose mental pollutions have faded away, who is without blemish, stainless, purified, arrived at the destruction of the regeneration of birth, him they call enlightened... This elated the mind of Sabhiya , who approving, delighted, glad, enraptured by joy, asked for permission to join the Buddha's Sangha . After the usual probationary period of four months, Sabhiya in this very life awakened himself as an Arahat . Sutta-Nipata verses 513-517 Edited excerpt. <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #103548 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:27 pm Subject: Re: Far Flung Whimsy: "that's the end of that" ksheri3 Hi Icaro, FINALLY! It took a bit of work on my partand a lot of consessions on your part, BUT, you finally transcended you devotion to heirarchy to allow me the "meat & potatos" of your argument, our conversation. I'd like to think that my ranting and raving about the insignificance of a heirarchy, exactly like the insignifficance between a professor delegatin their work to a STudent Aide to a lower level class, in the manufacturing facility known as UNIVERSITY or COLLEGE. It takes a lot for a stuck up potato chip to actually have a thought outside of their own importance but you have shown me that it does happen and can happen. THANX. Oh come now, what professor have you ever witnessed did not fit the exact prerequisites to be considered as a potato chip i.e. no nutritional value at all? AH, this useless concept of suffering and it's equally useless concept of nutrition, alas, but we are not enslaved by the Bush family, as of yet, and so we still have th ability to think for ourselves and so, HOPE and FAITH do have a function, no? You are tremendous. I rued the day when I'd end up face to face with scholars that have this emense amount of knowledge that I would someday tap into and then it would be as if a flood. REcently I have been hit with many generous offerings of actual suttas and now, you have given me such an enormous amount of material to plod through to even begin to attempt to make the equality of "conceptions" which you give. WOW! I am OVERWHELMED. You, in your two dimensional world of books and knowledge, aka Gnostics, you have flooded me with material that I have to first read and rationalize before cognizing how these things, the PAST DHARMAS, actually are and could be the reality I live with today. The problem I'm dealing with is a common problem that you may not have to deal with since you accept the two dimensional world as a reality and so you worship the publishers of this two dimensional reality and the politicians that draw up Rules & REgs for those publishers to reap monopoly profits. It's the same thing as Nepotism where,for instance, my brother, BErnard J.Sheridan became a millionare after being kicked out of the University of IL at Champaign during the begining of his sophomore year. Lets face it "Barnyard Boink Oink", my youthful termilogy/name that I used to call him when we lived in Chantilly VA, he couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag if it wasn't first predetermined that a path was set and the path would be illuminated by glowing Neon Lights. But that's my brother. I ponder about him and my family since I chose the course of a hermit and a magi and a .... I suspect that he has no time for rediculous concepts as Buddhism although he did move to Taiwan in the mid 1980s and so might be confronted by actually learning, by actually reading, <...> I will give him this: when ever I hear the albums CRIME OF THE CENTURY and/or MEDDLE I think of him and ponder his existance i.e. does he have any clue as to what he's done? WOW, how could that be my own family, my own brother, etc? Zoiks, Zorastrianism, damn, why do "gomer pyles" like exist? Look, it's like I've said for many years since finding an opontunity to study Buddhism that I figured out that I needed to study in the mid-1980s at the Theosophical Society: Look, this is gonna take me a long time, with kaballah I could do it rapidly since I was raised in a christian home/society, but this Buddhist schtick is gonna take a lot longer since I've gotta do sooooo much translation on my own. ACtually, until I can actually buy my own books, sit down read my own books, practice the theories I'd be learning from those books, then, lets face it, it's gonna be a lot longer than I'd expected. This problem between WEstern and EAstern philosophy/psychology is tremendous and needs a lot of work to actually begin to achieve a stasis where no kusala nor akusala sensations arise. A comfort zone, I guess it would be called. however, at my stage of only reading from what little I can read from the internet, well, that's an impossibility and you'll not get much actual magik from me, as I have done in the past, since I am not comfortable truely applying and truely opperating magik through these EAstern practices, AS OF YET. Give me some time. <...> toodles, colette #103549 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:35 pm Subject: Ladies and Gentelmen allow me to introduce our friend the Alaya-Vijnana ksheri3 [Chuck] MODERATORS: YOU BETTER HOLD THIS ENTIRE REPLY SINCE MY FRIEND HAS TRIGGERED A PROCESSENTION, AN INCONCEIVABLE SERIES OF EVENTS. Let us perue. You put this another way and I pursue the misgivings, the misinterpretations, the misunderstandings, etc, NO? Allow us, in the world which does not gain credence from your deities and your employers, let us EXTERIOR to your INTERIOR reality, deal with this. Ah, you now consider that your tiny little speck of reality is not worthy and is not of value to persue yet you constantly give that same reality and same "worthyness" to each and every sentient being you encounter; why is that?; why do you have the omnipotence to judge your dictations to another person as being of more or lesser value then have the ability [very good], rule upon the value of such a delusion. (The "very good" quote is from what just happend on my screen and my interpretation of another person reading my words and extending their thoughts to me). They know, they see, what is happening and they partake of manifestation therefore they agree to the terms that when they are juidged they shall be given a sentence worthy of their bejhavior and their practices, no? Okay, lets accept your definition of a "metaphysical reality". Fine, this reality does not conform in any way, to the definitions of "metaphysical reality" that we would find in the definitions of metaphsical realtiy through the Golden DAwn, et al. The entire "concept" of "substantiation" is completely different. > > Let us put this another way. We distinguish ordinary physical language from metaphysical language. The field of metaphysics is utterly different from that of physics and consequently there is a special metaphysical language. So in addition to the ordinary language of the physical, there is a language that transcends the physical. The physical language is the worldly, conventional language used under ordinary circumstances and based on physical things. The metaphysical language is based on mental things. It has to be learned, studied, and understood. It is based not on the physical world but on the mental. I hope you can now see the distinction between everyday language and Dhamma language. THE DHARMA LANGUAGE. The dharma language is based upon an extasy and it transcends the reality which we are forced to deal with every second of our lives.. The Dharma is a mix of cognitions. It transcends because it has this uncanny mix of reality, RELATIVE TRUTH, and such a seemless blend to the ULTIMATE TRUTH. without question, DHARMA'S POINT to a direction, a path, but they also point to alternative paths which ae not perceived nor are cognized by the majority of society, people. AS the orthodoxy of the WEstern theologies cognized BUDDHISM is a very dangerous thing to their reality, to the reality that they manifest for the masses of slaves that they control. Just as Buddhism is a danger to WEstern Creationism it is also true that WEstern CReationism is a danger to EAstern Buddhism. <...> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > ............. snip > > > > > C: May I suggest a reading? It is not too long. It is "Two Kinds of language" by the late and somewhat controversial Thai monk, ajahn Buddhadasa: #103550 From: "charlest" Date: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:44 pm Subject: Re: Ladies and Gentelmen allow me to introduce our friend the Alaya-Vijnana dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > [Chuck] > ........................ snip Good friend colette, Please forgive my dullness. Other than your quote, I have no idea of what you write. [bummers] > > AS the orthodoxy of the WEstern theologies cognized BUDDHISM is a very dangerous thing to their reality, to the reality that they manifest for the masses of slaves that they control. Just as Buddhism is a danger to WEstern Creationism it is also true that WEstern CReationism is a danger to EAstern Buddhism. > On the above, I do not agree. > > <...> > toodles, > colette > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > > > > ............. snip > > > > > > > C: May I suggest a reading? It is not too long. It is "Two Kinds of language" by the late and somewhat controversial Thai monk, ajahn Buddhadasa: > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103551 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:25 am Subject: Re: emptiness of dhammas dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > Hi Chuck, > ................. snip > > Yes, that's the way I understand it. The punctuation could have been better, though. As it is, a reader could get the impression 'paramattha' meant 'ultimate realities' instead of just the adjective 'ultimate.' There is also ultimate truth (paramattha saca) ultimate speech (paramattha vacana) and ultimate teaching (paramattha desana). > > Ken H > Good friend Ken H, et al Yes, you are correct. Ajahn Bodhi states "ultimate reality" is "paramatthato." Thamks. metta (matri), Chuck #103552 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:28 am Subject: Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) kenhowardau Hi Chuck, ----- <. . .> C: > 1. How do you describe ...anyone who has not understood the Dhamma...? 2. What is your definition of ...anyone who has not understood the Dhamma...? 3. What are the practical steps in understanding the Dhamma-Vinaya? ----- When the Buddha was asked to define the "loka" (all, universe) he said it could be any one of six possible worlds (the world of the eye, the ear, nose, tongue, body or mind). Whichever it was, the loka was always a world in which there was one citta, one object, one contact etc. Most modern day Buddhists ignore that teaching. They insist the loka is actually a collection of galaxies, planets, countries, cities, people, activities . . .. My question to you, Chuck, is, do you know of any meditation instructor - or of any meditator - who understands the loka the way the Buddha described it? If any of them does understand the loka that way, why would they be interested in a course of action designed to bring about a result? For whom would that result be? Wouldn't it have to be for a "self" (something, or someone, that continued on from the present loka to a future one)? ---------------- C: > 1. What is your definition of "formal practice(s)"? ---------------- Formal practice is a convenient term for any conventional course of action that is designed to bring about a result in the loka. (In the ultimate reality taught by the Buddha.) ------------------ 2. What is your definition of your meditation practice? ------------------ The practice taught by the Buddha was not one performed by people. It was one that took place within the loka (where there were only dhammas - no people). ------------------------- 3. Would you provide the Tipitaka reference for your meditation practice? ------------------------- Right understanding of the loka *is* the practice. It is taught throughout the Tipitaka. Ken H #103553 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:04 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 6, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, There are several more aspects of generosity. Abstaining from killing, lying and other evil deeds can be seen as an aspect of generosity. In abstaining from evil deeds which harm other beings one gives them a gift, one gives them the opportunity to live in peace. When we, for example, abstain from killing insects we give the gift of life. Another aspect of giving is forgiving the wrongdoings of someone else. When someone else speaks insulting words to us we may have aversion and conceit. When we think, “Why is he doing that to me”, we think in terms of “he” and “me”, and then there is comparing, with conceit. There can be conceit not only when we think of ourselves as higher than someone else, but also when we think of ourselves as equal or less than someone else. Conceit prevents us from forgiving. When we are stubborn and proud, the citta is harsh, impliable. When we see the benefit of kusala we can forgive. At that moment the citta is gentle, without hate or conceit. One wishes the other person to be happy. For this way of generosity one does not have to look for material things to be given, it can be performed without delay. Knowing that forgiving is an act of generosity can inspire us to forgive more readily. Another aspect of generosity, included in the first of the threefold classification of the ways of wholesomeness, is the explanation of Dhamma. When one explains the Buddha’s teaching to others, one helps them to develop right understanding of the realities of life. This is the way leading to the elimination of suffering and therefore, the gift of Dhamma is the highest gift. ---------- Nina. #103554 From: "Icaro" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:33 am Subject: Re: Far Flung Whimsy: "that's the end of that" icarofranca Dear Colette. As could say a Butcher or Ananda...let´s do it by parts! > FINALLY! It took a bit of work on my partand a lot of consessions >on your part, BUT, you finally transcended you devotion to heirarchy >to allow me the "meat & potatos" of your argument, our conversation. I am not an hierarchy devote. Hierarchy is an instrument like any other, to achieve a goal. > Oh come now, what professor have you ever witnessed did not fit the >exact prerequisites to be considered as a potato chip i.e. no >nutritional value at all? AH, this useless concept of suffering and >it's equally useless concept of nutrition, alas, but we are not >enslaved by the Bush family, as of yet, and so we still have th >ability to think for ourselves and so, HOPE and FAITH do have a >function, no? Hope and faith are remedies for the real fact that you are suffering - for Buddha,that is the main fact about everyone existence. For other people with more mundane tracts, they are a tool for social enslavering and to keep social classes freezed out. Changing the catholic father by the freemason, or the Thera by the Mulah, the Shaman by the Rabbi, etc, doesn´t change the main picture in any detail. >you have given me such an enormous amount of material to plod >through to even begin to attempt to make the equality of >"conceptions" which you give. All this material is now free to consult in internet - the Pali Canon, the Avesta, the Upanishads, the Tantras, etc. You may plunder all of it to compose your mind about them, freely...is it upsets you ? Your problem, my dear, is the fact that I haven´t the will to attain my thoughts about these questions with any priesthood corps - O.T.O., Schoenstatt movement ("The Lily is our Tabor!"), The R. Berg Kabbalah Center, Catholic Roman Church, Catholic Orthodox Church,all evangelic thrash, Sivananda Ashram, Freemasonry, Kagyu, Niyngma, Martinism, Rosicrucianism ( AMORC and etc), the Nashqbandi Sufis, Zoroastriamism,The Butch Hartman forum (yes, right, I was once a member!) etc, etc, etc... That´s not implies in equality of conceptions, for sure...however, copyright rights didn´t exist in the age in which such sacred doctrines were raised - that would be...complex! > You, in your two dimensional world of books and knowledge, aka >Gnostics, you have flooded me with material that I have to first >read and rationalize before cognizing how these things, the PAST >DHARMAS, actually are and could be the reality I live with today. >The problem I'm dealing with is a common problem that you may not >have to deal with since you accept the two dimensional world as a >reality and so you worship the publishers of this two dimensional >reality and the politicians that draw up Rules & REgs for those >publishers to reap monopoly profits. I must disagree you, Colette. Books and knowledge aren´t two-dimensional. They aren´t a map for any territory and positively aren´t any kind of mysterious "Gnosis". The same with DHAMMA. Do you ever know what DHAMMA is ? PAST, Present and Future ? Is the first place, you must put aside your self. An then face the impermanence, the vanity of all things. And... recognize suffering as suffering. > It's the same thing as Nepotism where,for instance, my brother, >BErnard J.Sheridan became a millionare after being kicked out of the >University of IL at Champaign during the begining of his sophomore >year. Lets face it "Barnyard Boink Oink", my youthful termilogy/name >that I used to call him when we lived in Chantilly VA, he couldn't >fight his way out of a wet paper bag if it wasn't first >predetermined that a path was set and the path would be illuminated >by glowing Neon Lights. But that's my brother. I ponder about him >and my family since I chose the course of a hermit and a magi and a >.... I suspect that he has no time for rediculous concepts as >Buddhism although he did move to Taiwan in the mid 1980s and so >might be confronted by actually learning, by actually reading, <...> >I will give him this: when ever I hear the albums CRIME OF THE >CENTURY and/or MEDDLE I think of him and ponder his existance i.e. >does he have any clue as to what he's done? WOW, how could that be >my own family, my own brother, etc? > I have a better idea about brothers and sisters(I have got two - one is a sergeant at Brazillian Air Force and the other works at INMETRO...where I was already assigned of) - leave he/she alone with his/hers deals... and about sisters, I love THE SISTERS OF MERCY band. Do you know them ??? > Zoiks, Zorastrianism, damn, why do "gomer pyles" like exist? Look, >it's like I've said for many years since finding an opontunity to >study Buddhism that I figured out that I needed to study in the >mid-1980s at the Theosophical Society: I do stand that Abhidhamma has got many contact points with The Avesta, with more equilibrium! > > Look, this is gonna take me a long time, with kaballah I could do >it rapidly since I was raised in a christian home/society, but this >Buddhist schtick is gonna take a lot longer since I've gotta do >sooooo much translation on my own. Kabbalah is wonderful! If you read the Emperor Justinian "Novelae", about hebrew teachings on Empire, you will read that they would be forbidded to teaching against Holy Trinity ( The Three Supernal Sephirot), the Works of God (the three initial Genesis´ Chapters, the basis of all Kabbalah) and the creation of Angels ( the same with Kabbalah)...and the Talmud is entirely out of question: banned! If you borrow of some friend a copy of Talmud and read it, you will understand why... Theravada Buddhism is still waiting a good Right Effort in West to become aptly clarified, like the old Zohar - printed in Mantua, XVI century, under Pope´s approval - some other Pope with mecenae wits and a gusto for oriental philosophy would do it very well! > ACtually, until I can actually buy my own books, sit down read my >own books, practice the theories I'd be learning from those books, >then, lets face it, it's gonna be a lot longer than I'd expected. >This problem between WEstern and EAstern philosophy/psychology is >tremendous and needs a lot of work to actually begin to achieve a >stasis where no kusala nor akusala sensations arise. A comfort zone, >I guess it would be called. however, at my stage of only reading >from what little I can read from the internet, well, that's an >impossibility and you'll not get much actual magik from me, as I >have done in the past, since I am not comfortable truely applying >and truely opperating magik through these EAstern practices, AS OF >YET. Give me some time. <...> Good luck, Colette...you will need it! But don´t worry... at least Nina has got fairy feelings about your rightful demands of more clarification on these ideas. As Ananda, I am just acting like a butcher in such arguments! ^_^ Vous avez de la chance! #103555 From: "Icaro" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:52 am Subject: Re: Ladies and Gentelmen allow me to introduce our friend the Alaya-Vijnana icarofranca Hi Charlest! I will try to Clarify...french prosody is intriguing sometimes. > Please forgive my dullness. Other than your quote, I have no idea >of what you write. [bummers] All Western theologies consider Buddhism a menace for themselves due the fact that True Buddhism ( Theravada, for example), doesn´t sponsor any idea of God to be praised, or Eternal Heaven to be reached by the justified ones, or faith to be cherished by devotees. Since dear Colette considers such pious devotees as a mass of slaves to be ruled out by ignorance and obscurantism, like the Western Creationism, so, at her reasoning, there exists a state of war between Buddhism - and its claim for enlightment and freedom - and Western Theology, with all its scholastics! For our dearest Colette, such dialect is a fray! I will just give her an embrace and a "good luck" for her holy crusade against darkness! Mettaya Ícaro #103556 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: Me: "Does pa~n~naa operate in the sense-door process? If so, what are it's objects? My understanding is that no process that is related to the development of pa~n~naa occurs in the sense-door process but only in the mind-door. In other words, naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naa.na can only occur in the mind-door. Can you clarify?" Scott: Please consider Sammohavinodanii, 2043-2047: "2043...This is what is said: even a very wise man, except visible datum etc. that has come into focus , does not recognize with the five consciousnesses even one other state among the profitable and unprofitable. But here eye-consciousness is mere seeing only; ear-consciousness, etc. are mere hearing, smelling, tasting and touching only. But they have no other recognition of the profitable, etc. which is apart from seeing, etc. "2044. ... also with the mind element and likewise with the mind-consciousness elements that follow that i.e. with all the consciousnesses belonging to the five doors he does not recognize even a single profitable state. "2045. ... For he does not choose any posture among those belonging with walking with the consciousnesses belonging to the five doors. "2046. ... for all those functions beginning with the recognition of profitable and unprofitable states and ending with passing away come about through consciousness belonging to the mind door only, not through processes belonging to the five doors. Thus the consciousness of the cognitive series (viithi) together with their impulsions are rejected as far as concerns the performance of all these functions. "2047. And as they have not these functions, so also those of entry into certainty (niyaamokkama), etc. For one does not enter into certainty of wrongness with impulsions belonging to the five doors, nor into certainty of rightness; nor does this impulsion impel on being instigated by a personal name or clan name, nor by a concept such as a kasi.na, nor does it occur through insight which leads to emergence, nor does discrimination knowledge arise through it, nor knowledge of the supernormal achievements (abhi~n~naa.na), nor knowledge of the disciple's perfections, nor knowledge of pacceka-buddhahood, nor omniscient knowledge. But all this sort is found in the mind-door process." Sincerely, Scott. #103557 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door sarahprocter... Dear Friends, I wrote to Phil: "....All the references to light as an essential condition for seeing of visible object and as an aspect of visible object. If there's no light, nothing is seen. Other than such moments of seeing, we live in a world of darkness: [for seeing], "Likewise the eye is support condition; the visible datum is object condition; adverting is proximity, continguity, decisive-support, absence and disappearance conditions; light is decisive-support contdition; feeling, etc. are conascence and other conditions.. .." (Dispeller, p 84). <...> The seeing itself and other cittas (moments of consciousness) just perform their particular functions. There is no 'light' in them. Without eye-sense and visible object (inc. light) as conditions, nothing is seen, no light appears. "For while one is sleeping, when a lamp lit with a big wick is brought near his eye, eye-door advetence does not interrupt the life continuum first, but mind-door advertence only interrupts it...." (Dispeller, p 151). .... S: For cittas other than seeing-consciousness, light is not a supporting condition. Why? Because the world is only light at such moments of seeing. The rest of the time it's dark. I also referred to the references in the texts to akusala states as dark, such as: " Hence the Blessed One said: 'There are profitable and unprofitable states, bhikkhus, blameful and blameless states, states to be cultivated and not to be cultivated, states low and high, states dark and bright with their counterparts. ....'(S v 1060)" In this sense we can refer to cittas with ignorance and wrong view as being the darkest of dark moments. ***** For others, I just came across this earlier message I wrote with quotes from A.Sujin: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/81163 Re: [dsg] Citta - 'darker than dark' >Ven Pannabahulo: When my friend was in discussion with Ajan Sujin last week she said to him that "Citta is darker than dark." > Does anyone know what she could possibly have meant by that? .... >S: Your friend remembers well. Very good question and a very deep point! We think of there being light all the time, but there's no light at all in any citta. The only time light appears is when visible object is seen. So there's an instant of light appearing and then darker than dark the rest of the time. So it's an illusion to think that either we see all the time or that there is light all the time. At a moment of thinking, no light, but we go on dreaming about the experiences through the sense-doors. At a moment of hearing, no light. At a moment of tasting, no light. This is so for all other experiences, apart from when visible object appears. Also, there's no light at all in the seeing consciousness itself. So when the characteristic of seeing appears as object, no light again. It helps to appreciate how little we understand about the dhammas appearing now and how very attached we are to visible object, I think. It also helps us to understand more about the nature and characteristics of namas which have no light in them at all as we might imagine. Is there seeing now? It's just the dhamma which experiences visible object - that's all. Darker than dark! **** I just remembered that Scott transcribed a passage from a recording before on this topic. Here are a couple of extracts from his message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69763 Kh. Sujin (2001-10-23-e): <...> "And we can see that the rebirth consciousness and the bhavanga - the citta which follows the birth consciousness - must be very dark. As dark as when there is no seeing process; the same because hardness can be experienced even when there is no seeing, so how dark it is. So the pa~n~na can understand the quality or the characteristic of citta. It doesn't have any shape, no form, nothing else in it at all only the faculty of experiencing an object. It is the indriya, the leader, or the chief of experience. Not like cetasika which feels or remembers. So when we take everything out of this world, what is left? Citta. It knows. "...When ruupa does not appear, citta is there, and at that moment the characteristic is seen by pa~n~na which knows the characteristic of citta as citta, not as cetasika. So one lives in darkness, very, very dark, and only one spot that can make the world bright or light. Just only that. Eye-base only. The other ruupaa cannot condition the appearing of visible object or light. So, in reality, one lives in darkness with the idea or thinking about what is experienced through the other door-ways. And what is darker? Aviija. Doesn't know anything at all... (2001-10-23-f <...> "...because its so dark - nothing - so its very frightening when its not the developed pa~n~na. So one knows one's self whether one has the developed level of pa~n~na or not yet to be alone, and its not 'I', but only the element which can experience an object. No friends, no family, no one...So when there is the idea of self, one can try every way to gain Nibbaana because one doesn't know that even the sa.nkhaara dhammaa, the conditioned reality - the reality that is conditioned and falls away - is not Nibbaana. But pa~n~na has to know this before attaining the Four Noble Truths. Even the first Truth. Are we ready?"< ***** Metta, Sarah ======== #103558 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door sarahprocter... Dear Scott, (Ken O & all, but Phil, ignore this one - no quotes!) --- On Thu, 17/12/09, scottduncan2 wrote: >>Sarah: "Namas can only be experienced in the mind-door processes, of course..." >Scott: Does pa~n~naa operate in the sense-door process? If so, what are it's objects? ... Sarah: Yes, pa~n~naa can arise with the sense-door javana cittas. The object has to be the same sense object (one of the 7 rupas appearing through the 5 sense doors) that is experienced by the other cittas in that process. For example, if we're talking about the eye-door process, the object of pa~n~naa in such a process can only be visible object. ... >My understanding is that no process that is related to the development of pa~n~naa occurs in the sense-door process but only in the mind-door. In other words, naama-ruupa- pariccheda- ~naa.na can only occur in the mind-door. Can you clarify? .... Sarah: Yes, I also understand that naama-ruupa pariccheda ~naa.na only occurs in the mind-door and Ken O gave a good quote in support of this. I've also heard that in the beginning pa~n~naa (which knows realities) only arises in mind-door processes. ... >>Sarah: "The point about light is not this, but that whenever any object other than visible object is experienced, there is no light. Developed insight may be able to know bhavanga cittas, it's true and certainly more advanced insight will understand the falling away of cittas, but first namas and rupas have to be clearly known and distinguished over and over again and this can only occur in the mind-door processes where both namas and rupas can be known." >Scott: Got it. This clarifies my question above, in part. How would pa~n~naa know bhavanga citta? ... Sarah: Like it knows any other dhamma - if and when it appears only. Like any other citta, the bhavanga citta falls away and then its characteristic can appear in the following mind door process. (Its object cannot appear or be known). ... >>S:...To turn it round also, by understanding more and more about nama and rupa when they appear - i.e. understanding the characteristic of seeing, of visible object, of hearing, of sound (not the words, of course!) - it becomes clearer and clearer what is meant by the sense door and mind door processes." >Scott: Understood, just discussing. So pa~n~naa understands naama then ruupa and so on back and forth such that, over repeated moments the distinction becomes clear. I'm still not sure how it is, by this process, that the mind-door becomes clear. I'd guess it would be by seeing beyond the 'whole' and into the moment at which sense-door objects come into the mind-door to be known. ... Sarah: Sometimes I think we complicate the issue. It is the more and more precise understanding of dhammas appearing now, that's all. For example, when visible object is known, it's apparent that it is just that reality which is seen through the eye-door. When anger is known, it's apparent that it's just a mental factor which is not experienced through the eye-door, but through the mind-door. It's not seen, it's not heard, it's just cognised or thought about. Except for the 7 sense objects (visible object, sound, taste, odour, hardness, heat and motion), nothing else appears through the sense doors. It is through understanding the realities that this becomes very clear, not by thinking, but by directly knowing the objects appearing. So, it's just the continued development of the understanding of realities now, whatever labels are used. Insights are just impersonal cittas too! A sotapanna who'd become enlightened whilst listening to the Buddha wouldn't have had all these terms and details for different stages of insight. I look forward to any further comments, (yes, even party-pooper ones, Phil, if you couldn't ignore it:-)) Metta Sarah ======= #103559 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:02 am Subject: Re: Ladies and Gentelmen allow me to introduce our friend the Alaya-Vijnana dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Icaro" wrote: > > Hi Charlest! > > I will try to Clarify...french prosody is intriguing sometimes. > C: Where in the Tipitaka is that? > > > Please forgive my dullness. Other than your quote, I have no idea >of what you write. [bummers] > Icaro: > All Western theologies consider Buddhism a menace for themselves due the fact that True Buddhism ( Theravada, for example), doesn´t sponsor any idea of God to be praised, or Eternal Heaven to be reached by the justified ones, or faith to be cherished by devotees. > C: Good friend Icaro, et al 1. Beware of the word, "All." 2. Nay, there are gods in Theravada; albeit, lower case gods. Check out the "31 Planes of Existence." 3. Before labeling myself "Buddhist" I spent two years in a Roman Catholic seminary and taught Roman Catholicism almost 25 years. 4. Roman Catholicism teaches a person may attain the Christian Heaven if the person follows the rules of her/his non-Christian religion; for example, Buddhism. Otherwise, there would be too many people not able to reach the Christian Heaven simply because they have not had the opportunity to hear the Teachings of Christ!!! 5. Eastern Theologies are excluded? Rhetorical question: What is the logic? Icaro: > Since dear Colette considers such pious devotees as a mass of slaves to be ruled out by igorance and obscurantism, like the Western Creationism, so, at her reasoning, there exists a state of war between Buddhism - and its claim for enlightment and freedom - and Western Theology, with all its scholastics! > C: 1. Colette is entitled to opinions; albeit faulty. 2. Colette rules out Eastern Theologies? Rhetorical question: What is the logic? > For our dearest Colette, such dialect is a fray! > > I will just give her an embrace and a "good luck" for her holy crusade against darkness! > > Mettaya > > Ícaro > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103560 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:39 am Subject: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? dhammasaro Good friends all, I understand an Arahant (Skt: Arahat) generates neutral Kamma. That is, the Arahants' actions generate no good (white, positive) nor bad (black, negative) results from their actions. Question: Where in the Tipitaka is this taught? Warm thanks for your continued help. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103561 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Ken O, Phil! & all, (just saw this after posting my other one) --- On Thu, 17/12/09, scottduncan2 wrote: >Regarding: >Me: "Does pa~n~naa operate in the sense-door process? If so, what are it's objects? My understanding is that no process that is related to the development of pa~n~naa occurs in the sense-door process but only in the mind-door. In other words, naama-ruupa- pariccheda- ~naa.na can only occur in the mind-door. Can you clarify?" ... Sarah: As I just said, pa~n~naa can arise in the sense-door processes, the object is visible object and other sense objects. Yes, I agree that stages of insight occur in mind-door processes. ... >Scott: Please consider Sammohavinodanii, 2043-2047: "2043...This is what is said: even a very wise man, except visible datum etc. that has come into focus , does not recognize with the five consciousnesses even one other state among the profitable and unprofitable. But here eye-consciousness is mere seeing only; ear-consciousness, etc. are mere hearing, smelling, tasting and touching only. But they have no other recognition of the profitable, etc. which is apart from seeing, etc. ... Sarah: These five consciousnesses, seeing etc, merely see visible object etc. They don't experience anything else.... .... "2044. ... also with the mind element and likewise with the mind-consciousness elements that follow that i.e. with all the consciousnesses belonging to the five doors he does not recognize even a single profitable state. ..... Sarah: The other cittas in the sense door processes likewise only experience the sense objects. They cannot experience any other object. ... "2045. ... For he does not choose any posture among those belonging with walking with the consciousnesses belonging to the five doors. "2046. ... for all those functions beginning with the recognition of profitable and unprofitable states and ending with passing away come about through consciousness belonging to the mind door only, not through processes belonging to the five doors. Thus the consciousness of the cognitive series (viithi) together with their impulsions are rejected as far as concerns the performance of all these functions. ... Sarah: same reasoning... ... "2047. And as they have not these functions, so also those of entry into certainty (niyaamokkama) , etc. For one does not enter into certainty of wrongness with impulsions belonging to the five doors, nor into certainty of rightness; nor does this impulsion impel on being instigated by a personal name or clan name, nor by a concept such as a kasi.na, nor does it occur through insight which leads to emergence, nor does discrimination knowledge arise through it, nor knowledge of the supernormal achievements (abhi~n~naa. na), nor knowledge of the disciple's perfections, nor knowledge of pacceka-buddhahood, nor omniscient knowledge. But all this sort is found in the mind-door process." .... Sarah: Because only through mind-door processes can such functions, such knowledge of kusala and akusala, concepts of any kind and so on be experienced. This doesn't mean that pa~n~naa (of sense objects) cannot arise and develop in all doorways however, especially when it is well-established. That's my take.... Thanks for the good quote. Metta Sarah ------ #103562 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:50 am Subject: Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: #103552 > Good friend Ken H, et al Gee, I just do not know how phrase questions properly so I can understand your answers. You: 1. Answer with vagueness. 2. Answer a question with a question. 3. Answer with verbage I fail to correlate with the question. I guess I shall not ask you any further questions as I am wasting your time as well as my time. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103563 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks sarahprocter... Hi Chuck, (& Vince*) Great to see you around again and so active too! Thx for replying to some very old messages of mine:-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > Belated Chuck: Should finally visit the Foundation as I will be here until Feb. 3. ... S: I remember you visit Thailand frequently and that you were ordained briefly in Thailand and US. Please do visit the Foundation. Usually there's a discussion every Saturday, but contact Sukin to make sure. Nina, we and others will be in Bkk from 18th Feb as Nina mentioned, I think. It would be nice if you could stay longer and join us at the Foundation. Did you visit the Foundation once before for a visit? (*Vince, also good to see you back on DSG. When did you visit Bkk and the Foundation or did I misunderstand? I remember you mentioned coming from a Mahayana background before. How did you find it? Also, appreciating your discussions here.) ... > Belated Chuck: I never answered!!! [bummers] > > Please accept my apology. ... S: Never too late - I'm very behind with some replies too.... ... > > Briefly, I see practice as a personal path or quest with ups & downs, forward progress with back-sliding... > > For me, it first pa.tipatti (following precepts reinforced with meditation) and, to a lessor degree pariyatti - Tipitaka study. > > However, we all are different; hence, what is applicable to me may well not be applicable to you. .... S: Yes, and I think we use the terms a little differently too.... Now you've found 'Useful Posts', you might sometime like to look under 'pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha' and share anything you find helpful/disagree with! ... > > S: What aspects of the Teachings would most your discussions revolve > > around, if you can summarise? Mostly concerned with the Vinaya or with ideas of practice or discussions on suttas? > > Belated Chuck: Unfortunately, we had no plan nor schedule; hence, it was rather haphazard. But, it was fruitful. We discussed mainly questions from reading suttas and salient points as anatta, arahant, citta (mano), nibbana, planes of existence, samyojana, sankhara ... S: All good topics, especially those that relate to life now... Meanwhile, I'm enjoying all your discussions with other friends here.... As Ken H said, very much to the point.... Metta Sarah p.s it helps when you put the name(s) of the people at the top of the message whom you're addressing - even if 'All'. ======= #103564 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:53 am Subject: Re: Seeing our blindspots sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, Well, this must have been a really old message, probably almost 10 yrs old like the list! > >S:... Of course, in between any moments of awareness > >there are bound to be the doubts and confusions and worrying, >especially in > >the beginning when it's not 'firm'...Confidence has to grow >w/understanding > >too. I'm also finding the reminders here v.useful. > >Sarah > > C: Still true??? ... S: (corrected one grammar typo!) And then, still true!! Are you reading through the archives? If so, do you know how to download/scroll through them easily? If not, ask pt (and Connie) here and they'll be able to explain again. I remember Rob M downloaded the entire lot onto his hard-drive to be able to read off-line. (Also, if anyone needs advice anytime on how to download recent posts for reading off-line or printing, please ask us.) Metta Sarah ========= #103565 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind door ashkenn2k Dear Sarah and Scott Panna could arise in sense door process as there are kusala and aksuala javanas in the sense door process. It is in the mind door process where the certainity is clear. Scott - regarding bhavanga cittas, citta could be a mind object. But I do believe panna able to see it but I am not sure how panna arise to see it. So far I have yet to see any text on this, Cheers Ken O #103566 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) ashkenn2k Dear Chuck I have already answered you about the texts. Let said it again, I dont agree with the guide as it teach pyschology and not Buddha dhamma. Cheers Ken O #103567 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, (& Vince*) > > Great to see you around again and so active too! Thx for replying to some very old messages of mine:-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Belated Chuck: Should finally visit the Foundation as I will be here until Feb. 3. > ... > S: I remember you visit Thailand frequently and that you were ordained briefly in Thailand and US. Please do visit the Foundation. Usually there's a discussion every Saturday, but contact Sukin to make sure. Nina, we and others will be in Bkk from 18th Feb as Nina mentioned, I think. It would be nice if you could stay longer and join us at the Foundation. > > Did you visit the Foundation once before for a visit? C: Unfortunately, I have not, as yet. Will try to contact Friday. Picked up a head cold on the flight over the Pacific; hence, have stayed in the last ten days. Plan to visit my ajahn and HH The Supreme patriarch once my cold departs. And, a minor tooth ache... just old age... [beeg Texican grins] Have to return on Feb. 3; but, may return again in March if still too cold for me in USA!!! FWIW, over the years, I have read the DSG posts. Many I do not understand. Just a limitation of this ole Texican codger. I have not responded at home in Texas as I have a very slow dial-up internet connection. Here, in Bangkok, it is very satisfactory. [Verily beeg Texican smiles] > > (*Vince, also good to see you back on DSG. When did you visit Bkk and the Foundation or did I misunderstand? I remember you mentioned coming from a Mahayana background before. How did you find it? Also, appreciating your discussions here.) > ... > > Belated Chuck: I never answered!!! [bummers] > > > > Please accept my apology. > ... > S: Never too late - I'm very behind with some replies too.... > ... > > > > Briefly, I see practice as a personal path or quest with ups & downs, forward progress with back-sliding... > > > > For me, it first pa.tipatti (following precepts reinforced with meditation) and, to a lessor degree pariyatti - Tipitaka study. > > > > However, we all are different; hence, what is applicable to me may well not be applicable to you. > .... > S: Yes, and I think we use the terms a little differently too.... C: I am not sure what you mean. Please clarify for me. Thanks. > Now you've found 'Useful Posts', you might sometime like to look under 'pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha' and share anything you find helpful/disagree with! C: Have and will continue to visit. Thanks. Will review the Pali terms your mentioned. > ... > > > S: What aspects of the Teachings would most your discussions revolve > > > around, if you can summarise? Mostly concerned with the Vinaya or with ideas of practice or discussions on suttas? > > > > Belated Chuck: Unfortunately, we had no plan nor schedule; hence, it was rather haphazard. But, it was fruitful. We discussed mainly questions from reading suttas and salient points as anatta, arahant, citta (mano), nibbana, planes of existence, samyojana, sankhara > ... > S: All good topics, especially those that relate to life now... > > Meanwhile, I'm enjoying all your discussions with other friends here.... As Ken H said, very much to the point.... > > Metta > > Sarah > p.s it helps when you put the name(s) of the people at the top of the message whom you're addressing - even if 'All'. > ======= > C: Warm thanks for the kind reminder. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103568 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:55 am Subject: Re: Seeing our blindspots dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > > Well, this must have been a really old message, probably almost 10 yrs old like the list! > > > >S:... Of course, in between any moments of awareness > > >there are bound to be the doubts and confusions and worrying, >especially in > > >the beginning when it's not 'firm'...Confidence has to grow >w/understanding > > >too. I'm also finding the reminders here v.useful. > > >Sarah > > > > C: Still true??? > ... > S: (corrected one grammar typo!) > > And then, still true!! > > Are you reading through the archives? If so, do you know how to download/scroll through them easily? If not, ask pt (and Connie) here and they'll be able to explain again. I remember Rob M downloaded the entire lot onto his hard-drive to be able to read off-line. > > (Also, if anyone needs advice anytime on how to download recent posts for reading off-line or printing, please ask us.) > > Metta > > Sarah > ========= > C: Well, sort of just ramblin' around... bouncin' off the storage bins, so to write... [beeg Texican grins] Yes, I still prefer good old hard copy [Sorry, my tree-huggin' friends. I can only change so far!!! (Frowns to self)] Please provide the procedure. Thanks. ... Sarah, may you and yours have happy holidays and holy days this season. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103569 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:10 am Subject: Re: Re[4]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas ashkenn2k Dear Vince > When I touch a table, the thought "a table" arises in me, not "rupa". > Or maybe it is a convention. I mean; we can use the convention of the > solid, liquid and gas states, and then our experience of the outer > phenomena of the world will be right. And when we touch a table we > can know "solid" instead "table". > KO: Yes known it as solidity and not table. And if possible, ask yourself, what condition hardness/solidity, does self condition hardness or there is a self in hardness. I usually see it in terms of meeting of touch citta and tacile object, that is how hardness is known. You could go deeper that will depends on your level of understanding. > But my question is: Should we transform the name of the first > experience of objects in order to realize the truth?. Because finally > the table is so empty as rupa. We can be attached or detached of the > table wether we use "table" or "rupa", being this a problem of the > dhamma tool that we are using. > > I think if some person is experiencing rupa, then he should realize > the emptiness of rupa. But at least this is not my case, because I'm > experiencing a table, not rupa. Do you think the experience of the > things "as they are" is not enough to realize emptiness?. > KO: the correct tool is important because table is not real where hardness is real. Table is a mental construct just like personal computers which was not aroud in 1800s. People in the 1800s would not have any idea what is a personal computer but they do understand what is hardness (solidity if you prefer this word) because it is real. Real because its characteristics could be experience and known. Nama and rupa is used to break the conditioning of our habit of concepts of attaching self/being to rupas. > > According same K.Sujin, citta, cetasika and rupa ara sankhara dhamma > and they exists because conditions. Therefore, finally there is not > difference regarding taking a table or taking rupa. I believe we are > assigning rupa an ultimate level of "reality" from this conventional > level in order to understand. I don't mean rupa doesn't exists. > Just I wonder that Sujin writes the direct experience of naama and > rupa appears in higher states of progress, then I wonder about > building cognizables which are not here and now. > KO: There is a difference. Table is not real. Nama and rupa is real and have characteristic. Using table cannot break our habit of attaching a self/being of rupas and namas, as table itself is a concept, but using nama and rupa could. AS believes understanding of nama and rupa growth gradually. And IMHO, one must start conventionally and gradually before we reach the level of direct experience. Cheers Ken O #103570 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) dhammasaro Good friend Ken O, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Chuck > > I have already answered you about the texts. Let said it again, I dont agree with the guide as it teach pyschology and not Buddha dhamma. > > Cheers > Ken O > > > > C: So noted with no further comment. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103571 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:34 am Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 4 ashkenn2k Dear all Q. : Everything you have explained is very beneficial for me at this moment. But, although I have some understanding of what I heard, my understanding is not yet sufficient. When I practise satipaììhåna I immediately cling to a concept of self who is making use of sati. I am only a beginner and, as far as I know myself, I have not even attained the first stage of insight which knows the difference between the characteristic of nåma and of rúpa, nåma-rúpa-pariccheda-ñåùa. What should I do to have more understanding? S. : If someone tries to do something special with the aim to develop insight, his life will be very complicated. How can he act in the right way if there is still a concept of self who will do particular things? If people wish to do particular things in order to have more understanding, they are clinging. They cling to the understanding of nåma and rúpa which have arisen already. Satipaììhåna is the dhamma which is aware of whatever reality appears through one of the six doors, such as the dhamma appearing through the eyes, visible object, when there is seeing at this moment. Then satipaììhåna can be naturally aware and paññå can begin to study and investigate the true nature of nåma and rúpa. Q. : How should we develop satipaììhåna when we are seeing? S. : When there is seeing you can be aware and realize that what appears to seeing is a type of reality which only appears through the eyes. When we see hairs, a table, a chair, a pillar or a hall, we should know that what is seen is in reality only that which appears through the eyes. It does not appear through the ears, the nose, the tongue or the bodysense. When paññå has not been developed to the degree of knowing the difference between the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, this stage of insight cannot arise. (to be continued) With metta Ken O #103572 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:19 am Subject: Re: Angry Monks moellerdieter Hi Chuck, after some mild days there is snow in Northern Germany but did not reach Hamburg so far. Actually - after all these talks about climate change - I wouldn't expect any winter stronger then usual .. I' ll stay until end of March in Bkk.. pls inform via moellerdieter@... in case you will make it during that time. B.T.W. are you in contact with Ven. Dhammanando? I remember to have read that he went to Denmark .. (?) There is a short introduction about my former activity in Thailand you may find when searching..I will do likewise .. ;-) with Metta Dieter #103573 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:30 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 7 ashkenn2k Dear All As regards odour, this is the reality which appears through the nose. It is the object of cittas which arise depending on the rúpa which is smelling-sense. After there have been bhavanga-cittas in between, there are cittas of the mind-door process which experience odour. As regards flavour, this is the reality which appears through the tongue. It is the object of cittas which depend on the rúpa which is tasting-sense. After there have been bhavanga-cittas in between there are cittas of the mind-door process which experience flavour. As regards tangible object, this is cold, heat, softness, hardness, motion and pressure which appear through the bodysense. They are the objects of cittas which arise depending on the bodysense. After there have been bhavanga-cittas in between, there are cittas of the mind door process which experience tangible object. The five classes of sense objects, which have just been mentioned, can appear through six doors. When the cittas of the eye-door process have arisen and experienced visible object through the eye-door there are, after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between, cittas of the mind-door process which experience visible object through the mind-door. It is the same with the experience of the other sense objects. These objects are experienced by the cittas of the corresponding sense-door processes, and then, after there have been bhavangacittas, they are experienced through the mind-door. Thus each of the five classes of sense objects are experienced through their corresponding sense-door and through the mind-door. They are experienced through the six doors: the eye-door, the ear-door, the nose-door, the tonguedoor, the body-door, and the mind-door. (to be continued) Cheers Ken O #103574 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Anapanasati Sutta (A practical Guide to...) truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Chuck > > I have already answered you about the texts. Let said it again, I dont agree with the guide as it teach pyschology and not Buddha dhamma. > > Cheers > Ken O Dear Ken O, So how did the Buddha intend Anapanasati to be developed? With metta, Alex #103575 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:40 am Subject: Re: Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Dieter, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > after some mild days there is snow in Northern Germany but did not reach Hamburg so far. > Actually - after all these talks about climate change - I wouldn't expect any winter stronger then usual .. > > I' ll stay until end of March in Bkk.. pls inform via moellerdieter@... in case you will make it during that time. C: I may well return if my ole bones ache too much... > B.T.W. are you in contact with Ven. Dhammanando? I remember to have read that he went to Denmark .. (?) C: Unfortunately, no. When at Wat Bowon I did meet a monk on his way to Denmark or Sweden. I do not recall his name. > > There is a short introduction about my former activity in Thailand you may find when searching..I will do likewise .. ;-) > C: Thanks. I will look for it. > with Metta Dieter metta (maitri), Chuck #103576 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:01 am Subject: The Duration of a Citta dhammasaro Good friends all, Questions: 1. Do you agree the life-span of a "citta" is always a mind-moment (cittakkhana)? 2. If you do/do not; please provide a relevant Tipitaka reference. A sincere request!!! Please do not give some extraneous bull-shit!!! warm thanks for your continued help. metta (maitri), Chuck #103577 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Realities and Concepts - Part 1 No 7 upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/17/2009 12:29:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: #103573 ================================ And everything that is spoken of here is fleeting, unsatisfying, and empty of self. Every such phenomenon that is being honored here by being called a "reality" is, in fact, a chimera - ungraspable and without own-being. These are not separate, self-existent entities. They are, in reality, closer to being nothing than to being "realities," for they have no independent existence. When conceived of as self-existent realities, they are concept only, aviija-based concept. They are poisonous if ingested or grabbed at, and should be let go of. With metta, Howard The Aggregates are Void /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #103578 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:22 am Subject: The Life Span of a Citta dhammasaro Good friends all... It is a mind-moment (cittakkhana). So, how long is a mind-moment. Please no extraneous stuff. Just simply answer the question. If you can not, please practice "noble silence." Very sincere thanks. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103579 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: doubt. nilovg Hi Howard, well, forgot to salute me, LOL. Then we are quitte, I forgot the same to you a few weeks ago. I just got what I deserved! Someone in Thailand remarked: whatever we do, we all get it 'on our bread' (this is a Dutch expression). Op 16-dec-2009, om 16:33 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Not so, Nina. The Buddha is pa~n~natti. His attaining enlightenment is > a story. The ariyan sangha is pa~n~natti. All conventional! > --------------------------------------------- > N: The doubt is not about Gotama of the Sakyan clan who lived then > and then. You can see this as history of a particular person. When speaking about the object of doubt, vicikicchaa, this is doubt about his mental qualities, his wisdom. These are cetasikas. Wisdom is not a concept, not a story. The ariyan sangha: also denoted as four pairs. What are they: four pairs of lokuttara cittas, one of these magga-citta and one phala- citta, fruition. --------- Nina. #103580 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Dhammasangani nilovg Dear Alex, Op 16-dec-2009, om 18:41 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: While it is true that concentration can (and often is) wrong. It doesn't mean that development of concentration is Bad. Buddha has often praised it. Also considering that a person can have wrong concentration, this means that we don't have right concentration with every citta. We are not in jhana every single moment (even though there is only 1 object happening at a time). ------- N: Wrong concentration accompanies akusala citta, so this cannot be recommended. It cannot change into right concentration. ---------- > A: Buddha has praised physical seclusion very much. We often read > about wealthy guys leaving their daily life (of maintaining a harem > or being rulers or from a wealthy family) and joining the ascetic > and renunciation. ------- N: It depends to whom. --------- > A: The fact that they "had those accumulations" is beside the > point. The Buddha didn't forbid physical renunciation, and it WAS > part of the path. Leaving large or little wealth behind was a part > of becoming a monk or nun and striving toward Arhatship. That was a > valid path and Buddha didn't forbid it, it was part of His path. ------- N: Nothing is forbidden. People are not the same, some are laypeople and can also develop the Path in the midst of a busy life. Nina. #103581 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to practise. was: The Anapanasati Sutta nilovg Dear Mike, Op 16-dec-2009, om 20:51 heeft Mike het volgende geschreven: > Quotes N: We think that > > listening is good, but see how fast the idea of 'I,I,I' comes in. It > > is beneficial to notice this and without the Buddha's teaching we > > would never know anything about the different cittas. > > > Mike: Am I understanding correctly from what you say that you DO > pay attention to the sensations, feelings, mindstates, thoughts and > so on that arise in daily life? You are not just analysing the > Buddha's teachings, but using those teachings to inform your > observation of your daily experience? ------ N: The Buddhist teachings are 'not in the book', as Kh Sujin says. They are to be verified in our life. But beginning is beginning. We have to learn that whatever is experienced is conditioned dhamma. -------- > > Mike: This may sound like a really silly question, but I have to > ask it because I see so many posts here (not from you) that appear > to me to be suggesting that any sort of "observation" is pointless > (because of the speed of citta, not-self, etc, etc). I may, of > course, be misunderstanding them... -------- N: Characteristics of different realities appear and very gradually these characteristics are understood more clearly 'as mere dhammas', not self. Cittas are very fast, but still characteristics appear and we need not think of the speed of cittas. When someone says that he observes his feelings he has to find out himself whether this is done with an dea of 'I am observing'. I think that the word observing may be misleading. Better think of understanding. ------ Nina. #103582 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Life Span of a Citta nilovg Dear Chuck, I like your stress on noble silence. Op 17-dec-2009, om 20:22 heeft charlest het volgende geschreven: > It is a mind-moment (cittakkhana). > > So, how long is a mind-moment. > > Please no extraneous stuff. Just simply answer the question. If you > can not, please practice "noble silence." ------- N: It cannot be measured, so fast it is. ------ Nina. #103583 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:35 am Subject: Re: Re[4]: [dsg] emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 17-dec-2009, om 4:31 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > About my terrible English level she had a Buddha patience. > I end my trip in a remote island with "A Survey of Paramattha > Dhammas" in company of crabs and other beings. -------- N: I like your ending, the company of crabs. You know why Kh Sujin has such patience? Because of satipa.t.thaana. Endless patience and careful consideration is needed, day in day out, so that understanding can grow. I am thinking over your questions and it seems that it concerns : what is ruupa, and what is emptiness. Ken O explained to you about realities and I try to add something. You write to Ken O: V: I think if some person is experiencing rupa, then he should realize the emptiness of rupa. ----------- N: No, not yet. Emptiness is nothing else but anattaness. See Middle Length Sayings, III, Su~n~natavagga, Division on Emptiness. All dhammas are anatta, they are empty of self. But this is not yet realized in the beginning. -------- V: But at least this is not my case, because I'm experiencing a table, not rupa. Do you think the experience of the things "as they are" is not enough to realize emptiness? ------ N: Experiencing things as they are, that is the function of pa~n~naa, understanding, which is not you but a conditioned naama. This pa~n~naa begins in the way of intellectual understanding, knowing the difference between concepts such as a table, and ultimate realities, naama and ruupa. Naama and ruupa are just names to denote realities, and those names are not important. You do not have to think of them. Naama denotes citta and cetasika, and rupa denotes what is physical or material, thus, the reality which does not think, feel, or wish. ------- V: According same K.Sujin, citta, cetasika and rupa ara sankhara dhamma and they exists because conditions. Therefore, finally there is not difference regarding taking a table or taking rupa. ----- N: Table is not real, it is a concept of a whole. Rupas are real, they have different characteristics that present themselves one at a time and can be known without having to think of them, without labeling or naming them. Hardness, as Ken explained, is real. It is experienced through the bodysense. Hardness of a table or hardness appearing in the body is the same, it is just hardness. You do not have to call it ruupa. -------- V: I believe we are assigning rupa an ultimate level of "reality" from this conventional level in order to understand. I don't mean rupa doesn't exists. Just I wonder that Sujin writes the direct experience of naama and rupa appears in higher states of progress, then I wonder about building cognizables which are not here and now. ------ N: When pa~n~naa is developed more pa~n~naa can know more precisely the characteristics of naama and ruupa. Let me quote from my 'World in the Buddhist Sense": < When you eat breakfast you touch the fork. We call it “fork”, but what can you directly experience through the bodysense? The rúpas which are cold, hardness or motion? You can learn that, no matter whether we touch a razor or a fork, rúpas such as cold, hardness or motion can be experienced through the bodysense. It is not you who experiences them, but only a type of nåma which experiences them. Through the eyesense the rúpa which is visible object or colour can be experienced. The world of tangible object is different from the world appearing through the eyesense..... When there is seeing, it is visible object which is experienced; when there is touching, it is hardness, cold or another rúpa presenting itself through the bodysense , which is experienced. When we remember that we call a particular thing a “fork” or a “razor”, or when we remember how to use them, the reality presenting itself at that moment is a kind of nåma. Realities are experienced through the six doorways, presenting themselves one at a time . They are not a person, not a thing which can stay, they are nåma and rúpa which arise and then fall away immediately. This is the truth which can be directly experienced, this is the “world” in the ariyan discipline.> Thus this explain a little more what you want to know? Please tell me. Nina. #103584 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Duration of a Citta nilovg Dear Chuck, Op 17-dec-2009, om 19:01 heeft charlest het volgende geschreven: > Do you agree the life-span of a "citta" is always a mind-moment > (cittakkhana)? > > 2. If you do/do not; please provide a relevant Tipitaka reference. ------- N: In the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 39) we read about the shortness of the world: ...in the ultimate sense the life-moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls (that is, touches the ground) only on one point of (the circumference of) its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased... Life, person, pleasure, pain–just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased khandhas of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not Produced, when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead... Also the shortness of citta is also compared with the balancing of a mustardseed on a knifepoint. Extremely delicate. Nina. #103585 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Dhammasangani truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 16-dec-2009, om 18:41 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > While it is true that concentration can (and often is) wrong. It > doesn't mean that development of concentration is Bad. Buddha has > often praised it. Also considering that a person can have wrong > concentration, this means that we don't have right concentration with > every citta. We are not in jhana every single moment (even though > there is only 1 object happening at a time). > ------- > N: Wrong concentration accompanies akusala citta, so this cannot be > recommended. It cannot change into right concentration. > ---------- > Of course wrong concentration is wrong. What I've meant was that right concentration IS good. > > A: Buddha has praised physical seclusion very much. We often read > > about wealthy guys leaving their daily life (of maintaining a harem > > or being rulers or from a wealthy family) and joining the ascetic > > and renunciation. > ------- > N: It depends to whom. > --------- > > A: The fact that they "had those accumulations" is beside the > > point. The Buddha didn't forbid physical renunciation, and it WAS > > part of the path. Leaving large or little wealth behind was a part > > of becoming a monk or nun and striving toward Arhatship. That was a > > valid path and Buddha didn't forbid it, it was part of His path. > ------- > N: Nothing is forbidden. People are not the same, some are laypeople > and can also develop the Path in the midst of a busy life. > Nina. But the important thing about the above is that there IS that sort of valid practice (physical seclusion, striving, etc). With metta, Alex #103586 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: doubt. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/17/2009 2:49:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, well, forgot to salute me, LOL. Then we are quitte, I forgot the same to you a few weeks ago. I just got what I deserved! Someone in Thailand remarked: whatever we do, we all get it 'on our bread' (this is a Dutch expression). Op 16-dec-2009, om 16:33 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Not so, Nina. The Buddha is pa~n~natti. His attaining enlightenment is > a story. The ariyan sangha is pa~n~natti. All conventional! > --------------------------------------------- > N: The doubt is not about Gotama of the Sakyan clan who lived then > and then. You can see this as history of a particular person. When speaking about the object of doubt, vicikicchaa, this is doubt about his mental qualities, his wisdom. These are cetasikas. Wisdom is not a concept, not a story. The ariyan sangha: also denoted as four pairs. What are they: four pairs of lokuttara cittas, one of these magga-citta and one phala- citta, fruition. ----------------------------------------------- Nah! These are arahants, and they are namarupic flows that have a history of paths and fruits. :-) ------------------------------------------------ --------- Nina. ========================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103587 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:44 am Subject: Error Re: [dsg] Re: doubt. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 12/17/2009 4:37:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: ----------------------------------------------- Nah! These are arahants, and they are namarupic flows that have a history of paths and fruits. :-) ------------------------------------------------ =============================== I meant to write 'ariyans', not 'arahants'. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103588 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:07 pm Subject: Downloading the messages ptaus1 Hi Chuck and all, > > Are you reading through the archives? If so, do you know how to download/scroll through them easily? If not, ask pt (and Connie) here and they'll be able to explain again. I remember Rob M downloaded the entire lot onto his hard-drive to be able to read off-line. > > C: Please provide the procedure. Thanks. There are several ways to download the messages: 1. While you are on dsg message list, then you can just go File->Save Page As in your browser's top menu bar. For this to be useful, you'd need to be in the expanded display mode so that you can see all the 30 messages open on one page as scrollable text - on how to do this, please see my message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/103290 2. You can go to www.dhammastudygroup.org where all the messages from this list are archived in batches of 250 messages - so by clicking on any of message links there, and then going File->Save, you'll be able to download 250 messages at a time. Comparing between options 1. and 2., aside from the number of messages increasing from 30 to 250, option 2 gives a simple .txt file which is smaller than .html and also contains less extraneous coding (like html, links, formatting, etc) 3. Connie kindly made a second archive for the dsg messages on http://www.wuala.com/nichicon where there are 1000 messages per batch, instead of 250. So downloading will be 4 times easier. At the moment there are 4 directories there, and the messages are in the "dsgPosts_txt" folder. 4. I'm pretty sure that there is a way to download the entire "dsgPosts_txt" folder on connie's site, so all 100000+ messages in one go, depending on the browser and Java applet you have, but I had no time to explore this option yet, will let you know when I do. 5. You can use a software that's made for downloading entire websites, while preserving their structure, links, etc. Of course, these are never 100% accurate, though I think that in the case of a simple html website like www.dhammastudygroup.org, there shouldn't be any problems. The software applications I heard about in this regard are: http://www.httrack.com/ http://www.sitesucker.us/home.html But I haven't used these so can't vouch for them or explain how/if they'll work properly. Please ask if more info is needed. Best wishes pt #103589 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:17 pm Subject: Re: The Duration of a Citta truth_aerator Dear Chuck, all, > "charlest" wrote: > > Good friends all, > > Questions: > > 1. Do you agree the life-span of a "citta" is always a mind-moment >(cittakkhana)? Sure. The question is how short is this moment, and is the division of it itself is conceptual? Is it possible that dividing a mind into super short mind moments is a sort of "conceptualizing" itself ? Division of the whole into parts is ultimately done by the mind (just like making a whole out of parts). Measuring *is* a mental activity. IMHO. With metta, Alex #103590 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:22 pm Subject: Cetana/Manasikaro's aim in 7 universal cittas truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, According to CMA, Cetana & Manasikaro exists in every citta. In a process of seeing, exactly where is Cetana&Manasikaro aimed at? At a visual object (rupa), or at cakkhu-vinnana? In a process of mind door only, exactly where is Cetana&Manasikaro aimed at? mano, dhamma, or manovinnana? With metta, Alex #103591 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:29 pm Subject: Re: Downloading the messages dhammasaro Good friend pt, Warm thanks for the info. metta (maitri), Chuck --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Chuck and all, > ................. deleted by C #103592 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Duration of a Citta dhammasaro Good friend Nina, et al So a "citta" = a "Mind-moment" = a "Life-moment" = a "Conscious-moment." Hence, they are exact synonyms. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > Op 17-dec-2009, om 19:01 heeft charlest het volgende geschreven: > > > Do you agree the life-span of a "citta" is always a mind-moment > > (cittakkhana)? > > > > 2. If you do/do not; please provide a relevant Tipitaka reference. > ------- > N: In the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 39) we read about the shortness of the > world: > > ...in the ultimate sense the life-moment of living beings is > extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single > conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls > (that is, touches the ground) only on one point of (the circumference > of) its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so > too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious > moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have > ceased... > > Life, person, pleasure, pain–just these alone > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > Ceased khandhas of those dead or alive > Are all alike, gone never to return. > No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not > Produced, when that is present, then it lives; > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead... > C: The above reminds me of the theory of some scientist that there are parallel universe(s). > Also the shortness of citta is also compared with the balancing of a > mustardseed on a knifepoint. Extremely delicate. > Nina. > metta (maitri), Chuck #103593 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Life Span of a Citta dhammasaro Good friend Nina, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > I like your stress on noble silence. > Op 17-dec-2009, om 20:22 heeft charlest het volgende geschreven: > > > It is a mind-moment (cittakkhana). > > > > So, how long is a mind-moment. > > > > Please no extraneous stuff. Just simply answer the question. If you > > can not, please practice "noble silence." > ------- > N: It cannot be measured, so fast it is. > ------ > Nina. > C: This is what I found so far: AN 3.47 (PTS: A i 152) Sankhata Sutta: Fabricated translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu at web site: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.047.than.html The sutta does not answer my question; but, it may tickle someone's memory. Warm thanks Nina. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #103594 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:16 pm Subject: Re: The Duration of a Citta dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Chuck, all, > > > "charlest" wrote: > > > > Good friends all, > > > > Questions: > > > > 1. Do you agree the life-span of a "citta" is always a mind-moment >(cittakkhana)? > > Sure. The question is how short is this moment, and is the division of it itself is conceptual? > > Is it possible that dividing a mind into super short mind moments is a sort of "conceptualizing" itself ? > > Division of the whole into parts is ultimately done by the mind (just like making a whole out of parts). Measuring *is* a mental activity. > IMHO. > > > With metta, > > Alex ... C: Well, I would think some where in the Tipitaka it would be delineated. In the Abhidhamma? I have read the following in a contemporary commentary: A mind-moment consist of three sub-moments: 1. Arising (uppada), 2. Presence (thiti), 3. Dissolution (bhanga) metta (maitri), Chuck > #103595 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:15 pm Subject: Noble Silence; Was Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Sarah, et al > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > Hi Chuck, (& Vince*) > > > > Great to see you around again and so active too! Thx for replying to some very old messages of mine:-) > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > > Belated Chuck: Should finally visit the Foundation as I will be here until Feb. 3. ... C: Just received a phone call from a friend. He just returned from a pilgrimage to India. He will pick me up tomorrow and take me to my ajahn. So, again will not visit the Foundation. Perhaps I will prevail and we will visit the Foundation the following Saturday. > > FWIW, over the years, I have read the DSG posts. Many I do not understand. Just a limitation of this ole Texican codger. > > I have not responded at home in Texas as I have a very slow dial-up internet connection. Here, in Bangkok, it is very satisfactory. [Verily beeg Texican smiles] > > C: When return home to the Texas "Hill Country" I again will practice "Noble Silence." [wink - wink] metta (maitri), Chuck #103596 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:19 pm Subject: Re: The Duration of a Citta truth_aerator > "charlest" wrote: > C: Well, I would think some where in the Tipitaka it would be >delineated. In the Abhidhamma? > > I have read the following in a contemporary commentary: > > A mind-moment consist of three sub-moments: > > 1. Arising (uppada), > > 2. Presence (thiti), > > 3. Dissolution (bhanga) > > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck Dear Chuck, Nina, all, He did say things like: "I don't envision a single thing that is as quick to reverse itself as the mind — so much so that there is no feasible simile for how quick to reverse itself it is." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.048.than.html But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, suppose there were four strong archers — well-trained, practiced, & drilled — standing in the four directions, and a man were to come along saying, 'I will catch & bring down the arrows let fly by these four strong archers — well-trained, practiced, & drilled — before they have fallen to the ground.' What do you think? Would that be enough to call him a swift man, endowed with the foremost speed?" "Even if he were to catch & bring down the arrows let fly by one archer — well-trained, practiced, & drilled — before they fell to the ground, lord, that would be enough to call him a swift man, endowed with the foremost speed, to say nothing of four such archers." "Faster than the speed of that man, monks, is the speed of the sun & moon. Faster than the speed of that man, faster than the speed of the sun & moon, is the speed of the devas who rush ahead of the sun & moon. Faster than the speed of that man, faster than the speed of the sun & moon, faster than the speed of the devas who rush ahead of the sun & moon, the force of one's life span comes to an end. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will live heedfully.' That's how you should train yourselves." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn20/sn20.006.than.html Even in Canonical Abhidhamma (Dha there is often such a phrase On that occasion (samaye) such and such a mind arises. Even there the arising of mind is used in a temporally vague sense of "On that occasion..." In any case I believe that the mind can change VERY quickly. I am not sure if any division of the mind is "final". After all, it is mind that measures and measuring is a sort of conceptual activity. You can divide a long distance into miles, feet, inches, centimeters, meters, kilometers, etc.... None of the measures ultimately exist independent of conceptual mind, right? Even time itself is called a concep by CMA. If time is a concept, then any attempt to divide cittas into final units of duration is... conceptual... As to 3 submoments: > 1. Arising (uppada), > 2. Presence (thiti), > 3. Dissolution (bhanga) Is presence (thiti) a distinct unit or simply a time between first moment of arising (uppada) and last moment till complete dissolution (bhanga)? IMHO, Alex #103597 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:41 pm Subject: Re: The Duration of a Citta dhammasaro Good friend Alex, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > "charlest" wrote: > > C: Well, I would think some where in the Tipitaka it would be >delineated. In the Abhidhamma? > > > > I have read the following in a contemporary commentary: > > > > A mind-moment consist of three sub-moments: > > > > 1. Arising (uppada), > > > > 2. Presence (thiti), > > > > 3. Dissolution (bhanga) > > > > > > metta (maitri), > > > > Chuck > > > > Dear Chuck, Nina, all, > > He did say things like: > > "I don't envision a single thing that is as quick to reverse itself as the mind — so much so that there is no feasible simile for how quick to reverse itself it is." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.048.than.html > > But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html > > Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, suppose there were four strong archers — well-trained, practiced, & drilled — standing in the four directions, and a man were to come along saying, 'I will catch & bring down the arrows let fly by these four strong archers — well-trained, practiced, & drilled — before they have fallen to the ground.' What do you think? Would that be enough to call him a swift man, endowed with the foremost speed?" > > "Even if he were to catch & bring down the arrows let fly by one archer — well-trained, practiced, & drilled — before they fell to the ground, lord, that would be enough to call him a swift man, endowed with the foremost speed, to say nothing of four such archers." > > "Faster than the speed of that man, monks, is the speed of the sun & moon. Faster than the speed of that man, faster than the speed of the sun & moon, is the speed of the devas who rush ahead of the sun & moon. Faster than the speed of that man, faster than the speed of the sun & moon, faster than the speed of the devas who rush ahead of the sun & moon, the force of one's life span comes to an end. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will live heedfully.' That's how you should train yourselves." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn20/sn20.006.than.html > C: I fail to perceive any connection of the above cites to my question at hand!!! I observe monkey-mind, Dependent Origination, mindlessness, and, the advice to "...live heedfully." But, no thing about a citta, mind-moment nor about the three sub-moments. ...... snip > > IMHO, > > Alex > metta (maitri), Chuck #103598 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:24 pm Subject: The Thorn! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Life is short, difficult, unknown and surely Lethal! The Blessed Buddha once pointed out: The life of mortals here is difficult, brief, unknown, without any guarantees and it is always joined with the inherent misery of ageing, decay, sickness and death!!! For there is no chance, that one born will not die! To die is the nature of all beings. Just as for ripe fruit, there is constantly fear of falling, even so do all beings also constantly fear death. Just as clay-pots all break up sooner or later, even so is the life of all mortals. Whether young or old, foolish or wise, all of them will surely die! When they are overcome by death, going from here to the next existence, no one, neither father, son, or family can protect the mortal, who is led away like a cow to be slaughtered. And that even while the wailing relatives are actually looking on... This world is irreversibly infected by death, sickness and old age. Knowing this as unavoidable absolute, wise men do not grieve, but accept this very fact just as it is. Lamenting over a mortal is utterly useless. One whose path one cannot know, seeing neither from where he came, nor where he is going, cannot be helped by moaning! Any wise can realize, that lamentation just harms oneself, serving no good purpose.. And this is true, whether it is oneself or another who is dying: Weeping won't help! Sutta-Nipata verses 574-583 Edited excerpt. <.... Have a nice, noble and realistic day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #103599 From: "charlest" Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for your reply. > > > >pt: > > For (b) I'm still not sure what is it exactly that is stopping them - "fullfilled all the conditions for becoming a bodhisatta" - what are the "all conditions"? Thanks. > > ... > > S: [U.P. "Bodhisatta"] > > > > 1.- human being > > 2.- male > > 3.- only one who is capable of enlightenment in the life he makes the wish > > 4.- wish only in the presence of a living Buddha > > 5.- only a recluse or monk (not a layman) > > 6.- only one who has attained all jhanas and powers > > 7.- firm resolve and ‘ready to sacrifice his life for The Buddhas’ > > 8.- determination to develop paramis and qualities of a Buddha > > 9.-able to end.re extraordinary and unbelievable hardship > > pt: > Okay, so standard bodhisatta conditions. Sorry, for some reason I assumed that you were implying there's some special kind of intentional pre-bodhisatta practice/career that must be fulfilled before one enters bodhisatta career. > > Best wishes > pt > C: As I was taught... I do not have the cite(s). [bummers] In Buddhism, there are two definitions for a bodhisatta (Skt: bodhisattva). The Mahayana definition differs from the Theravadin. The historic Buddha was a bodhisatta before becoming Enlightened, an arahant(Skt: arahat) and a Buddha. In Theravada, a bodhisatta has not attained Arahant. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck Post script: Have you seen images of a "starving Buddha"? Actually the image is of the future Buddha before he perceived the "Middle Way." He was not yet a Buddha.