#104400 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: stories, stories. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Sarah) - In a message dated 1/14/2010 1:18:33 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I kept on considering what you had written to Sarah. Op 12-jan-2010, om 15:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I don't actually believe that you and I and "this year" etc are utter > > fictions in the same way and to the same degree as are selves, > souls, > and > > unicorns. -------- N: I know what you mean here. Unicorn or pink elephant is rather absurd, but person is less absurd, it is based on the five khandhas. I think a lot on persons and all the things connected with my social life. Thinking is usually with attachment. ----------------------------------------------- Yes, it is. ------------------------------------------------ I am attached to persons. ------------------------------------------------ Me, too, and that is suffering. But care must be taken, I think, in not throwing out the baby (metta) with the bath water (attachment). --------------------------------------------------- So, all this thinking is rather useless, but it is conditioned, it arises. ----------------------------------------------------- Much of our thinking is useless, but much is helpful. We need to be aware of which is which. ----------------------------------------------------- We cannot tell ourselves: do not think. Thinking itself is naama, a conditioned reality. We attach so much to thinking, we live in our own world of thinking. --------------------------------------------------------- Yes, a concocted world of thought. And we cannot wish that away. But we can cultivate patience and equanimity, and we can pay attention. ------------------------------------------------------------ Then I listen to a recording by Kh Sujin about seeing and hearing, and I find this so refreshing, sobering. ------------------------------------------------------------ Pleasant stories. But even good stories are still stories. ----------------------------------------------------------- When seeing appears there cannot be hearing at the same time. Such realities can be investigated more. Their arising and falling away is not yet experienced, but insight can be developed to that stage. Whereas when we are thinking all the time we are far away from the characteristic of impermanence. -------------------------------------------------------------- I agree. -------------------------------------------------------------- All these people we think of, it seems that they are there already and that they stay. We are far away from the truth, from reality. ------------------------------------------------------------- That is quite so. But when we think that they are *entirely* illusion, that also is far away from reality - on the other side. That extreme comes about when we ignore interrelationship and clustering of phenomena. ------------------------------------------------------------- Little by little we can learn about the difference between thinking of stories and investigating realities. -------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, but not by further thinking! --------------------------------------------------------------- Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard Right Effort "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" — _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) #104401 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jill nilovg Dear friends, Op 13-jan-2010, om 13:09 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > The blue book the Jill co-authored with Richard was a great one > that I first read some 25 years ago. Really excellent and an online > verision availbel on my website. > Meeting Jill in Thiland and Austrlia to discuss Dhamma was always > nice too. --------- N: This is the link:< http://www.abhidhamma.org/Introduction.html > I quote the last part: (end quote) ******* Nina. #104402 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:56 am Subject: attanudi.t.thi nilovg Dear Ken O, this is explaned on the audio: January 2007: 13 c. Nina. #104403 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] attanudi.t.thi ashkenn2k Dear Nina When she said something is permanent that is attanuditthi, that is not correct, that is micca ditthi taking impermanent or permanent Also when she said there is a something, when one takes something (a concept is I believe refer to this something) that is miccha ditthi as when we take something as exist. Attanditthi is a doctrine of self It is easy to assume to take attanuditthi as opposite of anatta. But we have to accept the text does not support such a view, the text supports attanuditthi as sakkayaditthi. Also attanuditthi as opposite of anatta is a narrow definition of anatta. Why because there is I am in conceit. Anatta is not just about against wrong view but also against conceit. Cheers Ken O #104404 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:16 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 15. nilovg Dear Han, Op 14-jan-2010, om 11:40 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > > Nina: A clue to these headings you find in the 'Guide through the > Abhidhamma Pi.taka', by Ven. NYanatiloka. Do you have this? It is > under Anusaya Yamaka (p. 104). But this is in short. > > Han: I do not have any English book on Yamaka. ------- N: It is not on line. I can type just part of it. ----- The Biases. 1.Where does the Bias of sensuous craving adhere?- to the 2 feelings (pleasant and indifferent) of the Sensuous sphere. 2. Where anger?- To painful (bodily or mental) feeling. ... (1 with 2) a: Does to (every) one to whom the Bias of Sensuous Craving adheres, also the Bias of Anger adhere?- Yes. b: And does to (every) one to whom the Bias of Anger adheres also the Bias of Sensuous Craving adhere?- Yes. .... -------- (Place) All 7 BIases obtain in the Sense- fine-material, and immaterial sphere, except in the Pure abodes (suddhaavaasa). Consciousness connected with anger does not obtain in the fine-material and immaterial world, though according to Ledi Sayadaw, anger still exists there (in a dormant state). ----- N: the latent tendency of dosa has not been eradicated if that person is not an anaagaami. --------- The text continues with person and place. Negative: To whomsoever the bias of Sensuous craving does not adhere, does there to him also not the bias of anger adhere?..... ------- II. possessed of Biases (saanussaya) Is (every) one who is possessed of the Bias of Sensuous Craving, also possessed of the Bias of Anger... ----- III Abandoning the Biases (pajahana) ( 1 and 2) : Does (every) one who abandons the Bias of Sensuous Craving also (at that moment) abandon the Bias of anger (and conversely)?- Yes.... -------- IV Penetration (pari~n~naa vaara), V Biases abandoned (pahiina v.), VI Arising of Biases (uppajjana v.), in these sections the same questions and answers. N: As to arising, anusayas themselves do not arise but condition the arising of akusala citta. ------ VII The biases in the various spheres of existence (dhaatu vaara). One who, after passing away from the Sensuous sphere, (or fine- material sphere, etc.) is reborn in the Sensuous sphere (etc.), may have 7 biases (i.e. the worldling), or 5 biases (i.e. the sotaapanna and sakadaagaami) or 3 biases (the anaagaami); but he may (at that moment) not be free from all of them. ----------- The text is very short with questions and answers. The co stated the question why the Buddha did not mention more objects to which anusayas adhere. It is said: because these are not coarse. He mentioned what people could easily understand. The co. elaborates more on the different objects to which the anusayas adhere. ---------- Nina. #104405 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 ashkenn2k Dear Alex KO: When one thinks I want to quicken it, there is already a I, that is already sakkayaditthi, that is wrong view. When one think I could hasten it, that is already an I. We dont compare those panna with non-Buddhist because their development of panna is not base on anatta doctrine. Nobody can hasten anything because dhamma are anatta. There is no self at all, how to push self then? >The phrase was spoken by the Buddha "'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered." KO: I have explained already to pt, when Buddha speaks about I and mine in the suttas, he knows clearly it is just nama and rupa. > >>Could you honestly tell me any part of your aggregate is you or >belongs to you. > >None of them belong to anyone. They are natural phenomena. > >Please understand: The Buddha has often said about desire and strong effort. He frequently talked about the need for physical seclusion, samatha development and so on. KO: What is samantha, kusala or akusala ? When there is a view of there is a self, would that be kusala? . >I do not beleive that it is always good to jump to the most important part and disregard the preliminary steps. Sure, the panna, is the most important aspect. But it is supported by other factors such as sila and samadhi. Like one cannot simply jump to grade 12, the most advanced class in high school, but has to go through grades 1,2,3 etc - same is here. Before building a 2nd floor, there must be 1st floor. KO: the most preliminary steps in every dhamma development is developing understanding. Panna is the key, when panna arise samadhi (concentration) is samma, when panna arise with sila, sila is samma. That is the most basic. Samadhi could be miccha samadhi, sila could be miccha sila, only with panna we are assure it is samma samadhi and samma sila >It does seem to me that DSG promotes inaction of the "nothing-can- be-done-ism" . KO: We already have full of objects to be aware of like seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking. Ain't that enough :-) Why seek more, isn't that lobha. Remember lobha likes everything Cheers Ken O > >If thats the case, then awakening cannot be hastened and any non-buddhist can attain Nibbana at the same rate as a Buddhist. KO: No one can hasten anything, not even Buddha himself. > >One may as well indulge in beer and football and avoid doing any effort (cultivating kusala) for Awakening since that would be just developing micchaditthi - akusala. > >With metta, > >Alex > > > #104406 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 ashkenn2k Dear pt > >pt: Thanks for the clarification, though I still don't really get your interpretation of that sutta excerpt. Here's how I see it at the moment, perhaps you can point out where your understanding differs? Thanks. > >Sutta: >"There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered." > >pt: It seems that for the one developing this base of power: KO: When panna arise, there are six pairs of beautiful cetasikas also arise. You could read it at Cetasikas written by Nina. These pairs are counteractive to the hindrances of sensuous desire, ill-will, sloth and topor, restlessness and regret, and doubt These are the two obvious examples there is calm, there is tranquility of citta and cetasikas. They are the opposite of distraction or restlessness There is lightness of citta and cetasikas - opposite of sloth and topor There are five powers - faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. They are developed with the arisen with panna. Hence with the arisen of panna, it develop the powers and conter-react the hindrances >1. panna is of the level of understanding the difference between kusala and akusala chanda (desire), so that development can happen with kusala chanda (desire), not akusala one. > >2. his/her insight is not yet on the level of vipassana, i.e. there is that word "thinking", which seems to indicate that whatever panna knows, it is still on the conceptual level - so it knows the difference between akusala and kusala characteristcs of chanda and other realities, but doesn't know their characteristic of anatta directly yet. KO: Yes, we start from conceptual level. >3. it primarily deals with samatha development - sluggish, active, restricted and scattered seem to refer to meditation hindrances. So there's doesn't seem to be a requirement to know the dhammas and their characteristics as annata at this point yet, but only as kusala or akusala. So, "my" and "mine" seem appropriate at this level, whether used by the Buddha, or by other teachers, as there's no direct recognition of anatta yet. > >4. This whole next bit of the sutta seems to refer to some sort of samatha practice, though I'm not sure which one exactly - i.e. is it perceiving some sort of kasina nimitta all the time, or something else, and I don't understand that whole bit about day and night either, nor the brightened mind... > >Sutta: >"He keeps perceiving what is in front & behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, what is behind is the same as what is in front. What is below is the same as what is above, what is above is the same as what is below. [He dwells] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind." KO: When panna arise, I, my and mine would not arise. Be it conceptual understanding now or not, when panna arise, self would not arise. When panna arise, whatever behind, in front, day or night, panna would understand the characteristics of the dhamma that enter the six sense doorways. It understand it as it is. That is we call direct understanding of moment by moment or one citta by one citta. Thus the awarenss is open and his mind is brighten. Cheers Ken O #104407 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 truth_aerator Dear KenO, Nina, Sarah, all >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > > KO: When one thinks I want to quicken it, there is already a I, >that is already sakkayaditthi, that is wrong view. Can that determination be without a Self belief? What is wrong with samvega, the sense of urgency brought on by *understanding* the house on fire that we call Samsara. >When one think I could hasten it, that is already an I. >Nobody can hasten anything because dhamma are anatta. Panna and such qualities hastens it. No need to believe in an "I". Again, from what you are saying it seems that nothing can be done to hasten the Awakening. By this line of reasoning we have the derived conclusion that a non-Buddhist can hasten awakening as much as a devoit Buddhist. >There is no self at all, how to push self then? Impersonal conditions do not imply fatalism. Chanda, viriya, adhimokkho are NOT AKUSALA! > > >The phrase was spoken by the Buddha "'This desire of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered." > > KO: I have explained already to pt, when Buddha speaks about I >and mine in the suttas, he knows clearly it is just nama and rupa. Same with me. I do not speculate about a Self that does things. Conditions *do* things, *do* things. > > > >>Could you honestly tell me any part of your aggregate is you or >belongs to you. > > > >None of them belong to anyone. They are natural phenomena. > > > >Please understand: The Buddha has often said about desire and strong effort. He frequently talked about the need for physical seclusion, samatha development and so on. > > KO: What is samantha, kusala or akusala ? One pointedness can be both. A snipers one-pointedness is akusala. A person's one-pointedness at observing anicca-dukkha-anatta is kusala. Samatha due to settling of greed, anger and delusion - is wholesome. >When there is a view of there is a self, would that be kusala? . There can be mundane merit done with Self View. > KO: the most preliminary steps in every dhamma development is >developing understanding. Sure. I agree. But the path doesn't involve just reading. There are other component parts. > > >It does seem to me that DSG promotes inaction of the "nothing-can- be-done-ism" . > >KO: We already have full of objects to be aware of like seeing, >hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking. Ain't that >enough :-) Why seek more, isn't that lobha. Remember lobha likes >everything > > > Cheers > Ken O It requires a certain detachment from sensory world to meditate deeply. The teaching of "live the life normally and develop understanding" appears to appease the defilements and it shows the attachment to ordinary life. It is so nice to develop understanding in the comfort of your own home, surrounded by sense pleasures... For sensual desire the physical renunciation seems like a drop-off... With metta, Alex #104408 From: han tun Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:04 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 15. hantun1 Dear Nina, > Han: I do not have any English book on Yamaka. ------- > N: It is not on line. I can type just part of it. ------- Han: Thank you very much, Nina. I really appreciate the trouble you have taken for me. It really helps me. Respectfully, Han #104409 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 jonoabb Hi Alex (104380) > I do not beleive that it is always good to jump to the most important part and disregard the preliminary steps. Sure, the panna, is the most important aspect. But it is supported by other factors such as sila and samadhi. Like one cannot simply jump to grade 12, the most advanced class in high school, but has to go through grades 1,2,3 etc - same is here. Before building a 2nd floor, there must be 1st floor. > > > It does seem to me that DSG promotes inaction of the "nothing-can-be-done-ism" . > > If thats the case, then awakening cannot be hastened and any non-buddhist can attain Nibbana at the same rate as a Buddhist. > > One may as well indulge in beer and football and avoid doing any effort (cultivating kusala) for Awakening since that would be just developing micchaditthi - akusala. > =============== No-one here is suggesting that there is no such thing as the cultivation of kusala, or effort for Awakening. It's a question of just what that cultivation or effort, as taught by the Buddha, involves. As I see it, the crucial issue is not the prerequisites for enlightenment, but the prerequisites for the development of insight (at a beginning level). Can that development begin without the undertaking of any of the practices you refer to as the preliminary steps/grades? Jon #104410 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:00 pm Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (104380) > > I do not beleive that it is always good to jump to the most important part and disregard the preliminary steps. Sure, the panna, is the most important aspect. But it is supported by other factors such as sila and samadhi. Like one cannot simply jump to grade 12, the most advanced class in high school, but has to go through grades 1,2,3 etc - same is here. Before building a 2nd floor, there must be 1st floor. > > > > > > It does seem to me that DSG promotes inaction of the "nothing-can-be-done-ism" . > > > > If thats the case, then awakening cannot be hastened and any non-buddhist can attain Nibbana at the same rate as a Buddhist. > > > > One may as well indulge in beer and football and avoid doing any effort (cultivating kusala) for Awakening since that would be just developing micchaditthi - akusala. > > =============== > > No-one here is suggesting that there is no such thing as the >cultivation of kusala, or effort for Awakening. I am Glad to hear that. >It's a question of just what that cultivation or effort, as taught >by the Buddha, involves. Lots of properly directed effort, that is for sure. It doesn't seem that Buddha has always affirmed "go with the flow" and "let it naturally develop" "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html > > As I see it, the crucial issue is not the prerequisites for enlightenment, but the prerequisites for the development of insight (at a beginning level). Can that development begin without the undertaking of any of the practices you refer to as the preliminary steps/grades? > > Jon It may be possible to reach stream-entry (or higher) without current "formal" practice, for Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu type of individuals. http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/individu.htm But what kind of individuals are we? Can we equal Bahiya and Ven. Sariputta or MahaMoggallana who could achieve maggaphala through listening? With metta, Alex #104411 From: han tun Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:24 pm Subject: Dhaniya Sutta (1) hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah, and others, When I first read Snp 1.2 Dhaniya Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, it is not very interesting. But when I listen to the tapes by Sayadaw U Nyanissara, it becomes suddenly very interesting. I want to share this with the members of DSG. My purpose in presenting this is (i) to get any additional information, if any, on this sutta, and (ii) to correct me if there is any mistake in my presentation. I say this because Sayadaw was talking in Burmese and when I try to write it in English there could be some miss-interpretations. The sutta is about the dialogue between Dhaniya, a wealthy cattle owner, and the Buddha; the one rejoicing in his worldly possessions and security, and the other in His spiritual freedom. Dhaniya lived at the time when the Buddha was staying at Saavatthi. It was the monsoon season, just before the onset of rain. He had built strong shelters for himself, his family and for the cattle on the bank of the River Mahi. The Buddha, however, knew that this family was in danger of being overwhelmed by the flood. and appeared outside of Dhaniya's shelter, at the tree top level, by His supernormal powers.. While Dhaniya was rejoicing in the comfort and security, he uttered verses about how he was prepared for the rain, challenging the rain god to go ahead and rain, and also about his family and the cattle, and so on. The Buddha, in response, uttered verses that play on words of Dhaniya's verses with different meaning. There are a total of 17 verses. I will present them in installments. -------------------- 1. Dhaniya the cattleman: [Note 1] "The rice is cooked, my milking done. I live with my people along the banks of the Mahi; my hut is roofed, my fire lit: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead and rain." 1. Pakkodano duddhakhiiro hamasmi (iti dhaniyo gopo) Anutiire mahiyaa samaanavaaso, Channaa ku.ti aahito gini Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. [Note 1 by Thanissaro Bhikkhu]. Dhaniya Gopa: Literally, one whose wealth is in cattle. According to the Commentary, his herd consisted of 30,000 head of cattle. As soon as Dhaniya had finished speaking the above verse, he heard the following verse spoken by someone from outside of his shelter. The Buddha: "Free from anger, my stubbornness gone, [Note 2] I live for one night along the banks of the Mahi; my hut's roof is open, my fire out: [Note 3] so if you want, rain-god, go ahead and rain." 2. Akkodhano vigatakhilo hamasmi (iti bhagav) Anutiire mahiyekarattivaaso, Viva.taa ku.ti nibbuto gini Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. [Note 2 by Thanissaro Bhikkhu]. The first line in the Buddha's verse plays on words in the first line of Dhaniya's. "Free from anger" (akkodhano) plays on "rice is cooked" (pakkodano); and "stubbornness" (khilo) plays on "milk" (khiro). [Note 3 by Thanissaro Bhikkhu]."Open" means having a mind not covered or concealed by craving, defilement, or ignorance. This image is also used in Ud 5.5 and Sn 4.4. "My fire out" refers to the fires of passion, aversion, and delusion; birth, aging, and death; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair. See SN 35.28; Iti 93; and The Mind Like Fire Unbound. -------------------- Han: Dhaniya said "pakkodano" which means "the rice was cooked". The Buddha said "akkodhano" which sounded very similar to pakkodano but very much different in meaning. "Akkodhano" means the Buddha had already eliminated the anger completely. While Dhaniya was rejoicing for having cooked the rice, the Buddha was rejoicing for having eliminated the anger without any remainder. So there was a big difference between the two utterances. In this connection, Sayadaw quoted other suttas how to abandon the anger. Sayadaw said anger is eliminated completely by anaagaami magga, but for the puthujjanas, who have not yet reached the stage of anaagaami, can follow the instructions given in AN 5.161 Aghatavinaya Sutta. Those who wish to read this sutta, please click on the following link. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.161.than.html -------------------- Dhaniya said "duddhakhiiro hamasmi" which means my milking was done. The Buddha said "vigatakhilo hamasmi" which means "all my ceto-khilas or all mental obstructions have been removed". While Dhaniya was rejoicing for having done the milking of his cows, the Buddha was rejoicing for having removed the ceto-khilas. In this connection, Sayadaw quoted AN 5.205 Cetokhila sutta: An arrow in the mind. In this sutta, the Buddha explained about the five arrows in the mind. (1) The bhikkhu has doubts about the Teacher (satthari ka"nkhati), he does not feel inclined towards the Teacher, is not reassured, the mind does not apply to become tranquil, to persevere, to dispel and make endeavour. The mind's lack of assurance, lack of application to become tranquil, to persevere, to dispel and make endeavour is the first arrow in the mind. (2) The bhikkhu has doubts about the Teaching (dhamme ka"nkhati), ... re .... is the second arrow in the mind. (3) The bhikkhu has doubts about the Community of bhikkhus (sa.mghe ka"nkhati), ... re ... is the third arrow in the mind. (4) The bhikkhu has doubts about the Training (sikkhaaya ka"nkhati), ... re ... is the fourth arrow in the mind. (5) The bhikkhu abides with an angry afflicted mind towards the co-associates in the holy life (sabrahmacaariisu kupito hoti), he does not feel inclined towards them, is not reassured, the mind does not apply to become tranquil, to persevere, to dispel and make endeavour. The mind's lack of assurance, lack of application to become tranquil, to persevere, to dispel and make endeavour is the fifth arrow in the mind. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanip\ ata/021-kimbilavaggo-e.html -------------------- To be continued. with metta, Han #104412 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:31 pm Subject: Causes of Emergence... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Emergence of the Four Frames of Reference: The Buddha once explained the profundity of causality like this: Arising of Nutriment induces the emergence of the Body... Ceasing of Nutriment induces the passing away of the Body... Arising of Contact induces the emergence of Feeling... Ceasing of Contact induces the passing away of Feeling... Arising of Naming- &-forming induces the emergence of Mind... Ceasing of Naming- &-forming induces the passing away of Mind... Arising of Attention induces the emergence of Phenomena... Ceasing of Attention induces the passing away of Phenomena... Therefore is considering, contemplating, analyzing, and recollecting: 1: Body merely as a transient form grown up on food; 2: Feeling only as passing emotion arised from sense-contact; 3: Mind just as changing mood emerged from n aming- &-forming; 4: Phenomena only as momentary mental states created by attention... a crucial necessity! Reflecting on these 4 facts repeatedly, & thoroughly, is called initiating and developing the Four_Foundations_of_Awareness , which, in itself, is the mental treasure par excellence, leading steadily, and directly to the Deathless Element: Nibb ana... <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya V 184 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104413 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 1 ptaus1 Hi KenO, Thanks for your reply. This is what's confusing me: > KO: When panna arise, I, my and mine would not arise. Be it conceptual understanding now or not, when panna arise, self would not arise. When panna arise, whatever behind, in front, day or night, panna would understand the characteristics of the dhamma that enter the six sense doorways. It understand it as it is. That is we call direct understanding of moment by moment or one citta by one citta. pt: If panna arises that is of the conceptual level that distinguishes between akusala and kusala, but does not see the characteristic of anatta directly yet (like in samatha development), does it mean that the citta arises without self? I mean, can it be said that there is no self arising even though anatta characteristic has not been directly seen at that moment by panna? Thanks. Best wishes pt #104414 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ptaus1 Hi KenO (and Sarah), > KO: Sorry Sarah > > You have yet provide textual prove to your points. because the debate commentary is very clear, there is no two unconditional. Space is concept just like putting two pillars and the "thing" in between is space. But small matter, not very important, just like to kid a small fuss for the fun of it. > >S: Pls read the comments I wrote to Nina on this before.If you haven't come across them, I'll try to find them. pt: KenO, you've already quoted the post #99823 by Sarah, which gives the debates commentary as if saying that only the first definition of space is a paramattha dhamma, but the other two are concepts. However, I'm not sure whether you've noticed what Sarah wrote at the end of that post (perhaps that's what she's referring to above)? As I understand it, she's saying that the commentary definition you quote is not related to space but to wrong understanding of "thusness" by some other school. Anyway, just thought I should bring it to your attention in case you missed it, that post is quite long and it took me a few readings to understand what's going on there. Best wishes pt #104415 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 1 ashkenn2k Dear pt >pt: I mean, can it be said that there is no self arising even though anatta characteristic has not been directly seen at that moment by panna? Thanks. KO: Yes, there is no self arising during conceptual understanding of dhamma by panna. At conceptual level of understanding, we only understand conceputal level of anatta but not the direct understanding of anatta. Cheers Ken O #104416 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > >C: For me, it first pa.tipatti (following precepts reinforced with meditation) and, to a lessor degree pariyatti - Tipitaka study. <...> > C: > 1. I simply use the words from the Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka: > > Patipatti - practice, or 'pursuance' of the teaching as distinquished from the mere theoretical knowledge of its wording (pariyatti, q.v.). ... S: Do you see these two definitions as being the same? Practice according to the Dhamma, according to the development of insight as taught by the Buddha, according to the eightfold path as in "dukkhanirodhagaaminii-pa.tipadaa". Literally, from pa.ti (to reach) pad(the particular object), as I recall. Unless there is an understanding now of namas and rupas appearing as anatta, there will never be any pa.tipatti or "reaching" of the objects of insight as I understand. Metta Sarah ======= #104417 From: Vince Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:11 am Subject: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina > N: Mahathera is correct. But in the D.O. consciousness is here > vipaakacitta, rebirth-consciousness and vipaakacittas during life, > and naama/ruupa are the cetasikas and rupas arising together with > rebirth-consciousness. As to vipaakacittas during life, naama are the > cetasikas and ruupa has to be specified. This is quite different from > when we are speaking in general of naama and ruupa in our life. For > the moment it would be better not to focus on the D.O. All terms have > specific meanings, it is a long study. When we read the relate of the same Buddha about his own investigation for awakening, the link becomes very explicit: "'Name-&-form exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition is there name-&-form?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Name-&-form exists when consciousness exists. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Consciousness exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' "Then the thought occurred to me, 'This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising, i.e., from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media... Thus is the origination of this entire mass of stress. Origination, origination.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before." *SN 12.65 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html the scrapyard of the present moment can be a long study even to produce tons of books an big accumulation of knowledge. However, the matter seems to be slippery and subtile but not a labyrinth. According that text, when there is an object, one can investigate "How arises name and form?". How the "I" arises in this same instant?. In this same instant there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising. It happens all the time while we are in relation with the many objects. When there is seeing of an object, quickly arises an appropriation towards that. In that sudden movement arises name&form and consciousness, then atta. At least reading this relate, it seems one must be aware from the first moment of the relation of dependence between the arising of consciousness and name&form. Everybody knows it can be intellectually understood by anyone when enough calm is present. However, we know it doesn't mean awakening, even with a background of tons of study. In this Buddha text, insight arises in relation with an strong impulse to put an end to rebirth, not about accumulating knowledge. Devas are much clever than us but then why our human position is more prone to taste truth. Intellectual attachment cannot be subdued with endless intellectual devices. It can be another way to review what Sujin says here: > if we know only terms and names of dhammas, we shall remain only at > that level, and we shall continue to know only terms. We should > develop pa so that the truth of anatt can be realized, in > accordance with the teaching that all dhammas are anatt. > Otherwise, to use a simile, we are like the ladle that > serves the curry but does not know the taste of it. If we study but > we do not realize the true nature of realities, how many lives shall > we be only at that level, and this means that we study and then > forget what we learnt.> best, Vince, #104418 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > S: CMA, p.177 > > > > 'cattaaro pana magg'uppaada ekacittakkha.nikaa. Tato para.m dve tii.ni phalacittaani yathaaraha.m uppajjanti. Tato para.m bhavangapaato.' > > > > "The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment. Thereafter, two or three occasions of fruition consciousness arise according to the case. Then comes subsidence into the life-continuum." .... A: > The above seems to contradict the suttas that talk about saddhanusarin and dhammanusarin existing for far longer than few mind moments. > > > "...This is called an individual who is a Dhamma-follower.9 Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness." > > ...his is called an individual who is a conviction-follower. Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. > > "Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html ... S: I don't see the difficulty. The quote you give is referring to the gradual development of the path leading to the 'reaching' and 'remaining in' (the magga and phala cittas)of 'the supreme goal' (nibbana). We have different tendencies as discussed before. From the Puggala-pa~n~natti (Abhidhamma text), "Division of Human Types by One" (PTS): "35. What sort of person is 'one conforming to the Norm' (dhammaanusaari)? The faculty of insight of a person proceeding to realise the fruition stage of 'stream-attaining' develops to a large extent; he cultivates the Noble Path carrying with it insight, preceded by insight....." "36. What sort of person is 'one conforming by faith'(saddhaanusaari)? The believing faculty of one proceeding to realise the fruition stage of a stream-attainer develops to a large extent. He cultivates the Noble Path carrying with it faith, preceded by faith...." See also: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/60469 Metta Sarah ======= #104419 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > There is even a separate heading for it in Useful Posts: Kamma3 > - black and white/bright and dark, Vitthaara Sutta, AN > =============================== > Thanks for this, Ken. I suspected it was in a sutta. Does anyone have > access to the particular sutta? (The "Vitthara Sutta" given on ATI is a > different one.) ... S: If you didn't get round to looking in U.P., I believe you have a copy of B.Bodhi's Anguttara Nikaya anthology "Numerical Discourses of the Buddha"? If so, it is no 71: "From Darkness to Light" (Bk of 4s, 85). Metta Sarah ======= #104420 From: Vince Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 cerovzt@... Dear Alex, you wrote: > But what kind of individuals are we? Can we equal Bahiya and Ven. > Sariputta or MahaMoggallana who could achieve maggaphala through listening? Why not?. Don't we have ears and mind?. Are we not human beings too?. Is the mind of those people a different mind of ours? "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either enlightenment right here & now, or - if there be any remnant of clinging/sustenance - non-return." At least I think the arguments about somebody following Dhamma is wasting the time of his life because his kamma impedes him, it is not the Buddha teaching. Only a Buddha can know kamma in that depth. best, Vince. #104421 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (1) nilovg Dear Han, thank you very much, also for adding the Pali. I had never thought myself of the wordplay, very good. Nina. Op 15-jan-2010, om 0:24 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > [Note 2 by Thanissaro Bhikkhu]. The first line in the Buddha's > verse plays on words in the first line of Dhaniya's. "Free from > anger" (akkodhano) plays on "rice is cooked" (pakkodano); and > "stubbornness" (khilo) plays on "milk" (khiro). #104422 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:35 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 13. nilovg Dear friends, A mental phenomenon knows or experiences something, whereas a physical phenomenon does not experience anything. It is essential to learn the difference between these two kinds of phenomena. We tend to consider body and mind as a whole, as a person or self. When there is mindfulness of one reality at a time, we learn that there are only different mental elements and physical elements arising and falling away. When sound appears there is also hearing, the experience of sound. Sound and hearing have different characteristics. Sound does not experience anything, whereas hearing experiences an object, the object of sound. When visible object appears there is also seeing, the experience of visible object. Visible object does not experience anything, whereas seeing experiences an object, visible object. When there is mindfulness it is aware of only one object, either a physical reality or a mental reality. Each citta experiences only one object, and thus when mindfulness accompanies the citta, it can be aware of only one object at a time. It is very difficult to distinguish sound from hearing and visible object from seeing. Only when insight, direct understanding of realities, has been developed, physical realities and mental realities can be distinguished from each other. So long as there is confusion about the difference between what is mental and what is physical, there is still an image or a concept of a whole. When there is no precise understanding of one reality at a time, its arising and falling away, its impermanence, cannot be directly understood. There is no self who can choose the object of awareness or who can direct mindfulness to such or such object. Mindfulness is non-self, it arises because of its own conditions. It is unpredictable of what object mindfulness will be aware: either a mental reality or a physical reality. The characteristic of mindfulness cannot be understood by theoretical knowledge, by describing its nature. Only when mindfulness arises can one know what it is. It arises when there are the right conditions. ******* Nina. #104423 From: "charlest" Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > >C: For me, it first pa.tipatti (following precepts reinforced with meditation) and, to a lessor degree pariyatti - Tipitaka study. > <...> > > C: > > 1. I simply use the words from the Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka: > > > > Patipatti - practice, or 'pursuance' of the teaching as distinquished from the mere theoretical knowledge of its wording (pariyatti, q.v.). > ... > S: Do you see these two definitions as being the same? Practice according to the Dhamma, according to the development of insight as taught by the Buddha, according to the eightfold path as in "dukkhanirodhagaaminii-pa.tipadaa". Literally, from pa.ti (to reach) pad(the particular object), as I recall. > > Unless there is an understanding now of namas and rupas appearing as anatta, there will never be any pa.tipatti or "reaching" of the objects of insight as I understand. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > C: 1. I simply stand by my quote of this group's non-approval of the Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka: [Quote] >C: > > 1. I simply use the words from the Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka: > > > > Patipatti - practice, or 'pursuance' of the teaching as distinquished from the mere theoretical knowledge of its wording (pariyatti, q.v.). [End quote] ...................................... 2. On Paryatti, he further wrote in part: ...(1) learning the wording of the doctrine (pariyatti), (2) practising it (patipatti), (3) penetrating it (pativedha) and realizing its goal. ........................................................... 3. Any thing else is conjecture on my part. I do not presume to be smarter than the non-approved Bhikkhu Nyanatiloka. 4. As in the Dhammapada verses 1 and 2: 1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox. 2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow. Hence, if you, an ariya-puggala, sincerely believe your quote, run with it. It matters not to this cantankerous, despicable, ole, ornery puthujjana. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104424 From: han tun Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:30 am Subject: Dhaniya Sutta (2) hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah, and others, I am presenting Snp 1.2 Dhaniya Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and the explanations by Sayadaw U Nyanissara. It is about the dialogue between Dhaniya, a wealthy cattle owner, and the Buddha. Dhaniya lived at the time when the Buddha was staying at Saavatthi. It was the monsoon season, just before the onset of rain. He had built strong shelters for himself, his family and for the cattle on the bank of the River Mahi. The Buddha, however, knew that this family was in danger of being overwhelmed by the flood, and also knew that Dhaniya was ready to take in His teachings and attain spiritual attainment. So by His supernormal powers, He appeared outside of Dhaniya's shelter, at the tree top level. While Dhaniya was rejoicing in the comfort and security, he uttered verses depicting how prepared he was for the rain, challenging the rain god to go ahead and rain, and also about his family and about his cattle, and so on. The Buddha, in response, uttered verses that play on words of Dhaniya's verses but with different meaning. There are a total of 17 verses. I have presented the first two verses. But I have not yet finished with them, and I will continue now. -------------------- 1. Dhaniya the cattleman: "The rice is cooked, my milking done. I live with my people along the banks of the Mahi; my hut is roofed, my fire lit: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead and rain." 1. Pakkodano duddhakhiiro hamasmi (iti dhaniyo gopo) Anutiire mahiyaa samaanavaaso, Channaa ku.ti aahito gini Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. 2. The Buddha: "Free from anger, my stubbornness gone, I live for one night along the banks of the Mahi; my hut's roof is open, my fire out: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead and rain." 2. Akkodhano vigatakhilo hamasmi (iti bhagav) Anutiire mahiyekarattivaaso, Viva.taa ku.ti nibbuto gini Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. -------------------- Han: I have so far finished only the first line of Verse 1 and the first line of Verse 2. I will now continue. Dhaniya said, "Channaa ku.ti" (but my hut is roofed). The Buddha said, "Viva.taa ku.ti" (my hut's roof is open). Thanissaro Bhikkhu explained that "Open" means having a mind not covered or concealed by craving, defilement, or ignorance. Sayadaw U Nyanissara explained the same thing with emphasis on the removal by the Buddha of ta.nhaa and di.t.thi. Daniya had his hut roofed already to protect against the rain, and so he was challenging the rain god to go ahead and rain. The Buddha compared His body with the ku.ti and said the opposite of what Dhaniya had said, i.e., He had removed the roof of His ku.ti. Here, what He meant was He had already removed the roof or the covering of ta.nhaa and di.t.thi. As He had already removed the ta.nhaa and di.t.thi, the ordinary rain might rain, but the *kilesa rain* could not rain at all. Therefore, the Buddha was also challenging the rain god to go ahead and rain. Sayadaw added that it was not unusual for the Buddha to compare His body with something else. In Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta, the Buddha compared His body with an old cart being held together with straps. -------------------- Dhaniya said, "aahito gini" (my fire lit) and the Buddha said, "nibbuto gini" (my fire out). Dhaniya said he had lit the fire for their warmth, and for the cattle, driving away the flies and gnats. But the Buddha said He had extinguished the fires. Here, the Buddha meant the eleven fires that are burning the beings: (i) raaga fire, (ii) dosa fire, (iii) moha fire, (iv) jaati fire, (v) jaraa fire, (vi) mara.na fire, (vii) soka fire, (viii) parideva fire, (ix) dukkha fire, (x) domanassa fire, (xi) upaayaasa fire. To be continued. With metta, Han #104425 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Actions of an Arahant are Kamma Neutral? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/15/2010 12:28:29 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > There is even a separate heading for it in Useful Posts: Kamma3 > - black and white/bright and dark, Vitthaara Sutta, AN > =============================== > Thanks for this, Ken. I suspected it was in a sutta. Does anyone have > access to the particular sutta? (The "Vitthara Sutta" given on ATI is a > different one.) ... S: If you didn't get round to looking in U.P., I believe you have a copy of B.Bodhi's Anguttara Nikaya anthology "Numerical Discourses of the Buddha"? If so, it is no 71: "From Darkness to Light" (Bk of 4s, 85). ---------------------------------------------------- Thanks! Yes, I do have that. (You have some memory!!!) -------------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104426 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:33 am Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > > Dear Alex, > > you wrote: > > > But what kind of individuals are we? Can we equal Bahiya and Ven. > > Sariputta or MahaMoggallana who could achieve maggaphala through listening? > > Why not?. Don't we have ears and mind?. Are we not human beings too?. > Is the mind of those people a different mind of ours? > > "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of > reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be > expected for him: either enlightenment right here & now, or - if there > be any remnant of clinging/sustenance - non-return." > > At least I think the arguments about somebody following Dhamma is > wasting the time of his life because his kamma impedes him, it is not > the Buddha teaching. Only a Buddha can know kamma in that depth. > > > best, > > > Vince. > Hello Vince, all, Our faculties are not as developed as of Those Great Monks. To use the DSG terminology, our accumulations are not as big. So what was enough for them, may not be enough for us. Example: Did you reach sotopanna by listening? Did you become Arahant like Ven. Bahiya through listening for few minutes? With metta, Alex #104427 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > S: CMA, p.177 > > > > > > 'cattaaro pana magg'uppaada ekacittakkha.nikaa. Tato para.m dve tii.ni phalacittaani yathaaraha.m uppajjanti. Tato para.m bhavangapaato.' > > > > > > "The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment. Thereafter, two or three occasions of fruition consciousness arise according to the case. Then comes subsidence into the life-continuum." > .... > A: > The above seems to contradict the suttas that talk about saddhanusarin and dhammanusarin existing for far longer than few mind moments. > > > > > > "...This is called an individual who is a Dhamma-follower.9 Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness." > > > > ...his is called an individual who is a conviction-follower. Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. > > > > "Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html > ... > S: I don't see the difficulty. The quote you give is referring to the gradual development of the path leading to the 'reaching' and 'remaining in' (the magga and phala cittas)of 'the supreme goal' (nibbana). > > We have different tendencies as discussed before. From the Puggala-pa~n~natti (Abhidhamma text), "Division of Human Types by One" (PTS): > > "35. What sort of person is 'one conforming to the Norm' (dhammaanusaari)? > > The faculty of insight of a person proceeding to realise the fruition stage of 'stream-attaining' develops to a large extent; he cultivates the Noble Path carrying with it insight, preceded by insight....." > > "36. What sort of person is 'one conforming by faith'(saddhaanusaari)? > > The believing faculty of one proceeding to realise the fruition stage of a stream-attainer develops to a large extent. He cultivates the Noble Path carrying with it faith, preceded by faith...." > > See also: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/60469 > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > So are you saying that there is gradual development till magga, magga which itself happens instanteneously (after gradual development)? Then what about "Phala" ? According to the comy or Abh, it happens immeadetely after magga. But in the suttas, there is gradual development for phala after magga was developed. With metta, Alex #104428 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] attanudi.t.thi nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 14-jan-2010, om 16:02 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > When she said something is permanent that is attanuditthi, that is > not correct, that is micca ditthi taking impermanent or permanent ------- N: I just mentioned the audio because I was listening and thought that it might interest you. I went to the U.P. and read about this subject, but I do not think I can add anything new or constructive. Nina. #104429 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:28 pm Subject: Clear Comprehension! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: A Simple Way to Establish True Awareness: Friends, this highly advantageous praxis can be undertaken by anyone, at any time, all day long, in all situations, and at all locations! Therefore Do it!, Repeat it!, and Remember it!: When walking, one understands: "I am walking.." When standing, one knows: "I am standing.." If sitting, one notes: "I am sitting down now.." While lying down, one reflects: "I am lying down.." When moving forward or returning, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When looking forward or away, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When bending or extending a limb, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When dressing or carrying things, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When eating, drinking, or chewing, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When defecating or urinating, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When walking, standing or sitting, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When falling asleep or waking up, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When talking or dwelling in silence, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. Rational and alert attention is thus a cause of ultra clear comprehension! When continuous Awareness is established, it can prevent all mistakes, and their painful after-effects... In this way do clear comprehension lead reduced frustration and gain of new satisfaction! If correctly cultivated, and made much of, this praxis will be for all beings welfare and happiness for a long, long time... Why so? Clear comprehension purifies the purpose, the suitability, the domain, and the unconfused focus of any activity! <...> Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 22 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.htm http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 l Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104430 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ashkenn2k Dear pt #88095 in the useful post is about space written by Sarah to Nina. The article is base on reasoning and linking the text together basing on Melinda Panha [12] why space is used as unconditiion. However, this point does not agree with the text in the Points of Controversy which I type below. And the text is very clear about space and why it is not classifed as unconditioned. Concept is also not conditioned by kamma, citta, temperature and nutriment, space is a concept. #88905 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ------------------------------------------ <<3. Asankhata Dhammas (Unconditioned dhammas) ..................................... So, actually, there are 3 asankhata dhammas: a) pa~n~natti (concepts), b) aakaasa (space) [an-antaakaasa, not pariccheda aakaasa] c) nibbana. In the Melinda Pa~nha[12], it is said that there are "two things not born of kamma, hetu (cause) nor of physical change". These are aakaasa and nibbana. This refers to the second definition of aakaasa (above). Also when references are to boundless and immeasurable space, they are to this kind of space. Again in Milinda Pa~nha in the same chapter [13], Nagasena says: "Whatever beings are cognisant, sire, all these are born of kamma. Fire and everything born of seeds are born of cause. The earth and the mountains and water and wind are all born of physical change. Aakaasa and nibbaana - these two - are not born of kamma, not born of cause, not born of physical change." Another interesting quote with reference to the asankhata aakaasa is in another section [14]: "Reverend Naagasena, when you say that eleven special qualities of aakaasa are present in nibbaana, what are the eleven qualities of aakaasa that are present in nibbaana?" "As, sire, aakaasa is not born, does not age, does not die, does not decease (here), does not arise (elsewhere), is hard to master, cannot be carried off by thieves, depends on nothing (anissata), is the sphere of birds (vihagamana - lit. goes through the air), without obstruction, unending, even so, sire, is nibbaana, not born, does not age, does not die, does not decease, does not arise, is hard to master, cannot be carried off by thieves, depends on nothing, is the sphere of ariyans, without obstruction, unending. These, sire, are the eleven special qualities of aakaasa that are present in nibbaana." Other references in Milinda Pa~nha are to "air established on space" and the five qualities of space to be adopted [15]. The fourth one refers to how space is unending, boundless and immeasurable and this is how our moral habits and knowledge should be! ****** In conclusion, when reading the texts, we need to be clear as to whether it's the conditioned or unconditioned space element that is being referred to and also to appreciate that while space is referred to with the use of concepts, there is also the reality of space element which manifests in two different ways.>> -------------------------------------------- In Points of Controversy, pg 192. this question is after the question is that attainment of Cessation is uncondition. And after this question, the other question is space visible - which is not a question of thusness. Now the matter is discuss in pg 192 <<[1] Th - If space is unconditioned, as you affirm, you must class it with Nibbana, or you must affirm two [sorts of] unconditioned - and so two Nibbanas - all of which you deny .... [2] Can anyone make space where there has been no space? Then one can make that which is conditoned unconditioned - which you deny ... So, too, for the reverse process [3] Again, if you admit that birds go through space, moon, sun, and stars go though space, supernormal movement is worked in space, the arm or hand is waved in space, clods, clubs, a supernormally moved person, arrows are projected through space, you must state as much about movement through or in the unconditioned - which you cannot,... [4] Again, if people enclose space when they make houses or barns, do they enclose the unconditioned? Or when a well is dug, does space become space? Yes? Then does the unconditioned become conditioned? Or when an empty well, or an empty barn, or an empty jar, is filled, does "space" disapper? If so, does the unconditioned disappear?>> Cheers Ken O > >> >S: Pls read the comments I wrote to Nina on this before.If you haven't come across them, I'll try to find them. > >pt: KenO, you've already quoted the post #99823 by Sarah, which gives the debates commentary as if saying that only the first definition of space is a paramattha dhamma, but the other two are concepts. However, I'm not sure whether you've noticed what Sarah wrote at the end of that post (perhaps that's what she's referring to above)? > >As I understand it, she's saying that the commentary definition you quote is not related to space but to wrong understanding of "thusness" by some other school. Anyway, just thought I should bring it to your attention in case you missed it, that post is quite long and it took me a few readings to understand what's going on there. > >Best wishes >pt > > #104431 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:50 pm Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 2 No 3 ashkenn2k Dear all Question: Did you say that a concept is a kind of dhammrammaa (mind-door object)? S.: A concept is dhammrammaa. It is an object which can only be known through the mind-door. Question: Are there also paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities) which are dhammrammaa? S. : There are six classes of dhammrammaa.19 Five classes are paramattha dhammas and one class is not paramattha dhamma. We should know when the object is a concept. When the object is not a paramattha dhamma the object is a concept. When we think of concepts in daily life the characteristics of the paramattha dhammas which are experienced through the six doors are hidden. Thus realities are not known as they are. One does not know that what appears through the eyes is not a being, person, or self. It is only colour which appears when it impinges on the eyesense. When will pa become keener so that it will know the truth when there is seeing? When the truth is known we will let go of the idea that there is a self, that there are beings or people. One will be able to distinguish between the object which is a paramattha dhamma and the object which is a concept and one will have right understanding of the realities which appear through the six doors. ------------------------------------- 19 - The six classes are: the five sense-organs, the sixteen subtle to be continued rpas, citta, cetasika, nibbna, and concept. #104432 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:52 pm Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 12 ashkenn2k Dear all Q. : We all want to know what to do so that we can begin now with the practice of vipassanå. S. : One should be aware of the characteristics of the realities which appear. When sati is aware of whatever reality appears, vitakka cetasika which is “right thinking”, sammå-sankappa, of the eightfold Path, touches or “hits” the characteristic of the object which is appearing. At that moment paññå can begin to study and to gradually realize the true nature of that object. In that way paññå can develop. One may not be ready yet to consider and study the realities which arise and fall away again very rapidly. For example, when there is hearing, sati may arise and be aware of hearing, just for a moment, but one may not be ready yet to investigate that characteristic in order to know it as only a nåma which experiences sound. The nåma which hears has completely fallen away. In the beginning there is not yet clear understanding of realities such as hearing, but this is quite normal. Nobody can investigate the true nature of sound and of the nåma which hears, by trying to catch them or to get hold of them. However, the nåma which hears will surely arise again and if one develops sati and paññå, there can be awareness again of the nåma which hears. Now, at this moment, sati can arise and be aware of one characteristic of nåma or rúpa at a time, as it appears through one of the six doorways. In this way paññå can gradually develop to the degree of clearly knowing the difference between the characteristic of nåma and the characteristic of rúpa. Paññå will, for example, be able to distinguish between the characteristic of the nåma which hears and of the rúpa which is sound. These are different characteristics and they should be known one at a time. Eventually one will become more familiar with the true nature of nåma and of rúpa and then the understanding of their characteristics will become more accomplished. No matter which type of nåma or rúpa appears, and no matter where, awareness and understanding of them can naturally arise, and that is the development of satipaììhåna in daily life. When understanding develops and becomes more accomplished, ignorance can gradually be eliminated. To be continued Ken O #104433 From: "ashkenn2k" Date: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 ashkenn2k Dear Alex > > Can that determination be without a Self belief? What is wrong with samvega, the sense of urgency brought on by *understanding* the house on fire that we call Samsara. KO: Determination already arise without a self belief because all dhammas are not self. It is wrong view that cause us to think there is self. Wrong view itself is also anatta. Samvega - a sense of urgency arise because of knowing suffering. It is panna that knows suffering. When panna arise, wrong view of self does not arise. Where is self then? > Panna and such qualities hastens it. No need to believe in an "I". > > Again, from what you are saying it seems that nothing can be done to hasten the Awakening. By this line of reasoning we have the derived conclusion that a non-Buddhist can hasten awakening as much as a devoit Buddhist. > Impersonal conditions do not imply fatalism. Chanda, viriya, adhimokkho are NOT AKUSALA! KO: When panna develop, there is no self at all so we dont need to believe there is self to develop. It is wrong view who believe there is a self to develop and not panna. Can we hasten, seeing, hearing etc, or it arise on its own condition. Every moment when we are awake, we are bombarded by sense objects, ain't that enough for development. It is lobha who likes to hasten development and not panna. Panna is always patient as during the arisen of panna, patient arise also. > Same with me. I do not speculate about a Self that does things. Conditions *do* things, *do* things. KO: You statement to me when you said I must develop samantha, aready full of self concept. > > KO: What is samantha, kusala or akusala ? > > One pointedness can be both. A snipers one-pointedness is akusala. > A person's one-pointedness at observing anicca-dukkha-anatta is kusala. > > Samatha due to settling of greed, anger and delusion - is wholesome. KO: Please understand the term properly, samatha is not samadhi even though some people translate as so, which is to me not correct. Samadhi is one-pointedness whle samatha is clam. The arisen of samatha is only possible with kusala so naturally there is no aksuala involved. But samadhi could be aksuala and could arise with miccha ditthi. Since samatha could only arise with kusala, then at that moment there is no wrong view so how could there be a self to observe. > There can be mundane merit done with Self View. KO: There is no merit in aksuala. Self view is aksuala. > It requires a certain detachment from sensory world to meditate deeply. > > The teaching of "live the life normally and develop understanding" appears to appease the defilements and it shows the attachment to ordinary life. It is so nice to develop understanding in the comfort of your own home, surrounded by sense pleasures... For sensual desire the physical renunciation seems like a drop-off... > KO: Detachment could only arise with panna. Detachment could only arise when panna understand the anattaness of reality that arise through the six door ways. There is no renunciation without panna also :-). Cheers Ken O #104434 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:54 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 14. nilovg Dear friends, The right conditions are: listening to the Dhamma as it is explained by someone with right understanding, and studying and considering Dhamma. Theoretical understanding of ultimate realities and remembrance of what one has learnt are a necessary foundation for the development of direct understanding. If one has expectations about the arising of mindfulness, if one tries to concentrate on realities, or tries to observe them, there is clinging to an idea of self who can direct mindfulness, and this is counteracting to the arising of mindfulness. In the beginning one is bound to take for mindfulness what is not mindfulness but thinking. When one thinks, This is attachment, there is no direct awareness of the characteristic of the reality which appears. There can still be a concept of my attachment. Then attachment is not understood as a conditioned reality which is non- self. When one reality appears through one of the six doors, there can be a moment of investigation or study of its characteristic, and that is the beginning of understanding of its true nature, its nature of non-self. At such a moment there is mindfulness, mindfulness of the reality appearing at the present moment. Even one extremely short moment of mindfulness and investigation of an ultimate reality is beneficial, because in that way mindfulness and understanding can be accumulated. Then there are conditions for their arising again later on and in that way direct understanding can grow. Direct understanding of realities can develop only very gradually. There are different stages of insight, and in order that these stages can arise, understanding has to become very keen. The first stage of insight is the stage that the difference between the reality which is mental and the reality which is physical can be clearly distinguished. As I explained, this is difficult, since one tends to confuse realities such as seeing and visible object or hearing and sound. The arising and falling away, the impermanence of realities, can be penetrated only at a later stage of insight. ******* Nina. #104435 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:41 am Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 jonoabb Hi Alex (104410) > >It's a question of just what that cultivation or effort, as taught >by the Buddha, involves. > > Lots of properly directed effort, that is for sure. > =============== The idea of "properly directed effort" is a conventional one. The effort spoken of by the Buddha is quite different: it is a dhamma, specifically, a mental factor that accompanies kusala citta. Directed effort involves an idea of selection of object or manner of kusala. To my understanding, such directed effort is misguided, in that kusala arises by reason of conditions other than such directed effort. Would you agree, from your experience in life, that kusala can and does arise in a day without there being directed effort? > =============== > > As I see it, the crucial issue is not the prerequisites for enlightenment, but the prerequisites for the development of insight (at a beginning level). Can that development begin without the undertaking of any of the practices you refer to as the preliminary steps/grades? > > It may be possible to reach stream-entry (or higher) without current "formal" practice, for Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu type of individuals. > http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/individu.htm > > But what kind of individuals are we? Can we equal Bahiya and Ven. Sariputta or MahaMoggallana who could achieve maggaphala through listening? > =============== The attainment of enlightenment is not the question. The question is the development of insight at a much more beginning level. Is the undertaking of specific practices a prerequisite for beginning levels of awareness/insight to arise? Jon #104436 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject dhammasaro Good friend pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > ... snip > > As I understand it, she's saying that the commentary definition you >quote is not related to space but to wrong understanding of >"thusness" by some other school. Anyway, just thought I should >bring it to your attention in case you missed it, that post is quite >long and it took me a few readings to understand what's going on >there. > > Best wishes > pt > If I may interject: 1. Warm thanks for your kindness. 2. If I may quote from the Buddhist Dictionary by Bhikkhu Nyanatiloka, page 10 in reference to space (akasa): [Side bar: I know... I know... it is not approved by DSG as a reference dictionary.] Partial quote: ...Later Buddhist schools have regarded it as one of several unconditioned or uncreated states (asankhata dharma) - a view that is rejected in Kath. (s. Guide. p. 70). Theravada Buddhism recognises only Nibbana as an unconditioned element (asankhatadhatu: s. Dhs. 1084). End partial quote. Again, warm thanks... metta (maitri), Chuck #104437 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, --- On Fri, 15/1/10, charlest wrote: >C: 1. I simply stand by my quote of this group's non-approval of the Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka: ... S: You've referred to "this group's non-approval" a couple of times. I have no idea where you get this idea. Jon, I and many others have been referring to this dictionary for decades and quoting from it for ten years on DSG. Yes, it does contain some errors as would any modern reference text, but this does not mean it's not an invaluable resource, full of helpful references as we've often commented. In this thread, I did not point to any error in the dictionary. Metta Sarah ======= #104438 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > > --- On Fri, 15/1/10, charlest wrote: > >C: > > 1. I simply stand by my quote of this group's non-approval of the Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka: > ... > S: You've referred to "this group's non-approval" a couple of times. I have no idea where you get this idea. Jon, I and many others have been referring to this dictionary for decades and quoting from it for ten years on DSG. Yes, it does contain some errors as would any modern reference text, but this does not mean it's not an invaluable resource, full of helpful references as we've often commented. > > In this thread, I did not point to any error in the dictionary. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > C: According to a message to me, from Jon, a few days ago, he stated you, DSG, use the glossary of terms (?) in one of Ajahm Bodhi's tomes. He wrote no thing about my preference. He ignored it!!! Perhaps, you and Jon resolve this dichotomy. I write as I am told!!! as ever... #104439 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:45 am Subject: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Sarah ,Jon, All, you wrote : " Jon, I and many others have been referring to this dictionary for decades and quoting from it for ten years on DSG. Yes, it does contain some errors as would any modern reference text, but this does not mean it's not an invaluable resource, full of helpful references as we've often commented." well said , Sarah ! Actually it is more than a dictionary , it is manual , I.M.H.O. written by somebody with deep understanding of the Buddha Dhamma. I still admire this great monk , being the second westener admitted into the Order about 100 years ago. (You may know that Nyanaponika Maha Thera was his student and Bhikkhu Bodhi learnt much from the latter.) Being in consensus with this resource (and assuming no major errors) I wonder why the discussion about the samadhi part of the Noble Path seems to remain fruitless .. with Metta Dieter #104440 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:17 am Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 truth_aerator Hi Jon, KenH, all, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > Hi Alex > The idea of "properly directed effort" is a conventional one. The >effort spoken of by the Buddha is quite different: it is a dhamma, >specifically, a mental factor that accompanies kusala citta. Please explain the anusota sutta. Sure, effort *is* mental factor. However it doesn't mean that there is no effort. >Would you agree, from your experience in life, that kusala can and >does arise in a day without there being directed effort? Intentional actions that arises naturally, once were NOT natural. It may be natural to ride a bike for an adult. But not for a child who hasn't learned it, "un-naturally". All of this is not-Self, of course. With metta, Alex #104441 From: Vince Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 cerovzt@... Dear Alex, you wrote: > Our faculties are not as developed as of Those Great Monks. To use > the DSG terminology, our accumulations are not as big. So what was > enough for them, may not be enough for us. here you says our faculties are not enough but at same time you claim to know the kamma of beings, although only a Buddha can know this. > Example: Did you reach > sotopanna by listening? Did you become Arahant like Ven. Bahiya > through listening for few minutes? just I think if one build these walls also he should knock down them. If we don't know our kamma then we cannot claim our kamma impede us progress in this week or this life. Only Buddhas can know that. Inside Suttas, the figure in charge to say such things to followers was Mara. Buddha said one week. Mara said we cannot. "Yours are ideas, yours is the sphere of consciousness & contact at the intellect. Where no intellect exists, no ideas exist, no sphere of consciousness of contact at the intellect exists: there, Evil One, you cannot go." SN 4.19 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn04/sn04.019.than.html Do you think the spreading of those ideas belongs to a right discernment from arhants?. On my side I don't think so, because it contradicts the promise of Buddha Shakyamuni to Brahma: "Open are the doors to the Deathless to those with ears" best wishes, Vince. #104442 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 truth_aerator Dear Vince, all > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > you wrote: > > > Our faculties are not as developed as of Those Great Monks. To use > > the DSG terminology, our accumulations are not as big. So what >was > > enough for them, may not be enough for us. > > here you says our faculties are not enough but at same time you >claim > to know the kamma of beings, although only a Buddha can know this. For starters, I was repeating the DSG position that we don't have accumulations and have to study, study and study so more. Though it may be possible to rule out having super accumulations by the fact that a person hasn't become an Arahant through listening to a short (or even long) discource or discources. > > Example: Did you reach > > sotopanna by listening? Did you become Arahant like Ven. Bahiya > > through listening for few minutes? > >just I think if one build these walls also he should knock down them. > If we don't know our kamma then we cannot claim our kamma impede us >progress in this week or this life. Only Buddhas can know that. Yes you are absolutely right. Though it is possible to rule out the kamma on the level of Bahiya or Ven. Sariputta and MahaMoggallana. But with ardent and proper practice awakening can occur, maybe even next moment. With metta, Alex #104443 From: Vince Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 cerovzt@... Dear Alex, > For starters, I was repeating the DSG position that we don't have > accumulations and have to study, study and study so more. > Though it may be possible to rule out having super accumulations by > the fact that a person hasn't become an Arahant through listening to > a short (or even long) discource or discources. yes we have to study to know Dhamma and clarify the path. But already we have been born humans, in a environment with Dhamma then already we have the accumulation. Do you know the blind turtle simile; after 100 years a blind turtle is finally in the surface and also into the joke. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.048.than.html > But with ardent and proper practice awakening can occur, maybe even > next moment. I understand what you name "ardent" is faith. Supporting condition for faith is awareness of dukkha: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html it was present in the history of the Buddha insight of the previous post. Study alone can become only kamma. In fact, the entire verse is: "Open are the doors to the Deathless to those with ears. Let them show their conviction." best wishes, Vince. #104444 From: Vince Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 cerovzt@... > Do you know the blind turtle simile; after 100 years a blind > turtle is finally in the surface and also into the joke. Sorry I mean "into the yoke". I ignore the supporting condition for orthography. Vince. #104445 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:59 am Subject: Re: PHANTASMS, no? ksheri3 Hi connie and Sarah, I felt my ears burning when somebody used my subject line. Okay, a phantasm is a hallucination, no? It can be an ILLUSIONS (see Maya), it can be a Mirage (see Las Vegas and that S.Winn characters brothel, ROFL), it can be one of the 72 Goetic demons that Solomon allegedly used, enslaved, to build his "temple", etc. A phantasm retains the characteristic that it is MIND MADE, almost as if a PHANTASM was a MIND-ONLY SCHOOL OF BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY. At least you've come to the conclusion that you, connie, ain't gonna be able to waltz around this bothersome characteristic that you possess, that you somehow can see this stuff called "good" and this stuff called "evil" but you only choose to that which is one or the other, not that which is both. This devotional aspect of consciousness, the DESIRE TO DISCRIMINATE, the TASTE TO DISCRIMINATE, etc, one from another, is something that you have to learn to deal with. I like what you've done, THOUGH. <...> BTW, is it true that these hypothetical petas actually own the mansion in this hypothetical "heaven"? <...> Thanx for your acceptance and participation. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > I think when I said "grey area" it was because I was missing something when reading "The Great Discourse on Causation", too, but here's a little more light -- quoting Nina's note in #25922 (Dhamma Issue 13, Devas reborn with an ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta.) -- #104446 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:00 pm Subject: What is Becoming? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is the process of Becoming? A friend asked: Conditioned by clinging, does becoming come into being... What is Becoming? Answer: Cut short: Becoming is the process whereby the next moment arises... This next moment has both physical and mental properties and is as such dependent upon consciousness... If no clinging is present in this moment, no next moment will arise for that Arahat individuality... That is Nibbana! Every new moment and thus also the death-rebirth-moment is the result of this process of becoming, which drives all change and push time forward! In more detail: The process of becoming can take place in three planes or dimensions: 1: Becoming in the plane of sense desire (kama-bhava), which is what drives the life-process forward for all ghosts, animals, humans and lower devas. 2: Becoming in the plane of fine-material existence (rupa-bhava), which is what drives the life-process forward for higher devas like e.g. Brahma etc. 3: Becoming in the plane of formless existence (arupa-bhava), which is what drives the life-process forward for the highest formless devas. This process of becoming have two sides: The active side: Where new advantageous or detrimental intentional actions (kamma-bhava) create delayed future resultant forms of high or low rebirth. The passive resultant side: Where this rebirth in every moment & in between lives recreates or regenerates mental and material phenomena of existence. There are the two kinds of craving related to becoming! 1: Craving for Becoming: Examples: May I become rich, famous, praised, satisfied, beautiful, happy... 2: Craving for Non-Becoming: Examples: May I not become sick, criticized, poor, ugly, old, dead, unhappy... As these states are uncontrollable, both kinds of craving create suffering! The Blessed Buddha explained the process of Becoming At Savatthi. "Monks, there are these four floods. Which four? The flood of sensuality, the flood of becoming, the flood of views, and the flood of ignorance. These are the four floods." SN v 59 "Monks, there are these four yokes. Which four? The yoke of sensuality, the yoke of becoming, the yoke of views, and the yoke of ignorance. And what is the yoke of becoming? There is the case where a certain person does not understand, as it really is, the arising, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, and the escape from becoming. When he does not understand this becoming, as it really is, he becomes obsessed with passion, delight, attraction, infatuation, thirst, and fascinated fever for new forms of becoming. Thereby he then induces craving for becoming something new: To go further, wandering-on, heading to new birth & ever repeated death! This is the yoke of becoming..." AN ii This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "There are these three searches. Which three? The search for sensuality, the search for becoming, the search for a holy noble life. These are the three searches." Iti 44-98 "What is the origin of suffering? The craving that induce further becoming, accompanied by passion and delight, relishing now here & later there, that is: Craving for sensing, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming...This is called the origin of suffering." MN i 46 "From the arising of becoming, comes the arising of birth. From the ceasing of becoming, comes the ceasing of birth. And the way leading to the ceasing of birth is just this very noble eightfold path: Right view, right motivation, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right awareness, and right concentration." MN i 46 "And what is becoming? What is the arising of becoming? What is the ceasing of becoming? What is the way leading to the cessation of becoming? There are these three forms of becoming: Sensual becoming, fine material becoming, and formless becoming. This is called becoming. From the arising of clinging comes the arising of becoming. From the ceasing of clinging comes the ceasing of becoming. And the way of practice leading to the ceasing of becoming is just this very noble eightfold path: Right view, right motivation, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right awareness, and right concentration." MN i 46 "From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging... From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming... From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth... From birth as a requisite condition comes ageing, decay, sickness and death! So is the emergence of this entire mass of suffering!" D ii 55 "Having seen danger right in the process of becoming itself, and in searching for new forms of becoming or for non-becoming, I didn't affirm any kind of becoming, or cling to any kind of delight in becoming." MN i 326 "What are these four noble truths? They are the noble truth of suffering; the noble truth of the origin of suffering; the noble truth of the cessation of suffering; and the noble truth of the way to the cessation of suffering. When these profound truths, bhikkhus, have been realized and penetrated, then craving for existence is cut off, destroyed is that process which leads to renewed becoming, & there is not created fresh future becoming." DN ii 72 Any form of Becoming proliferates into Suffering... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita http://What-Buddha-Said.net What is Becoming? #104447 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:42 am Subject: Gnosis dhammasaro Good friends all, Some one recently asked about "gnosis." I did not observe an answer. Hence, I try... 1. From English-Pali Dictionary by A. P. Buddhadatta Mahathera, page 227: Gnosis, n. paramatthavijja, f. 2. From Buddhist Dictionary by Ajahn Nyanatiloka, page 149 - 150: paramattha (sacca, -vacana, -desana): 'truth (or term, exposition) that true in the highest (or ultimate) sense' as, contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohara-sacca), which is also called 'commonly truth' (sammuti-sacca -Skt. samvrti-satya). NOTE: There are several more paragraphs detailing further. 3. From Buddhist Dictionary by ajahn Nyanatiloka, page 226: vijja: '(higher) knowledge' gnosis. For the threefold , s. abhinna and te-vijja. Cf. vijja-carana. Hope this helps. In closing, please note the above two references are not preferred!!! peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104448 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:53 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary dhammasaro Good friend Dieter Moeller, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Sarah ,Jon, All, > > you wrote : > > " Jon, I and many others have been referring to this dictionary for decades and quoting from it for ten years on DSG. Yes, it does contain some errors as would any modern reference text, but this does not mean it's not an invaluable resource, full of helpful references as we've often commented." > > > well said , Sarah ! Actually it is more than a dictionary , it is manual , I.M.H.O. written by somebody with deep understanding of the Buddha Dhamma. I still admire this great monk , being the second westener admitted into the Order about 100 years ago. (You may know that Nyanaponika Maha Thera was his student and Bhikkhu Bodhi learnt much from the latter.) > > Being in consensus with this resource (and assuming no major errors) I wonder why the discussion about the samadhi part of the Noble Path > seems to remain fruitless .. > > with Metta Dieter > C: I agree with you. I wonder why Jon does not as he recently wrote he prefers DSG use some glossary of terms, as I wrote to good friend Sarah: Quote: C: According to a message to me, from Jon, a few days ago, he stated you, DSG, use the glossary of terms (?) in one of Ajahm Bodhi's tomes. He wrote no thing about my preference. He ignored it!!! Perhaps, you and Jon resolve this dichotomy. I write as I am told!!! as ever... End quote. Warm thanks for re-enforcing my view and my ajahns' views. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104449 From: "charlest" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:21 pm Subject: Re: Relentless Training: No Retreat, No Surrender! No pain, no gain! dhammasaro Good friend Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hi Tep, Jon and all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon and all, - > > > > I hope this discussion is fruitful. If it is, then it will be one > > more of the few occasions that ever happened to me here. > > .......................... > > > > >Jon: The position as I understand it is that right view must arise > > in order for there to be insight. > > And the main conditions for right view to arise (apart from > >existing > > accumulations of right view, of course) are the hearing of the > > teachings and reflection on what has been heard and understood. > > If one doesn't enage in N8P as much as possible, then there will > never be accumulations! As I understand suttas such as anusota, > is that for the worldlings either good or bad qualities accumulate. > If one doesn't "strive" for kusala states, akusala states rush in and > accumulate. Of course the action of engaging and training (sekha) is > anatta. > > > > > T: Right view is an insight. The conditions that support right view > > are : understanding of the dhammas (see the list below), their > > origin, their cessation, and the way (path: patipada, magga) > >leading > > to their cessation. > > > > The dhammas to be understood are as follows: the wholesome and the > > unwholesome; nutriment; the four noble truths; ageing & death and > >all other links of the DO from birth up to ignorance. [MN 9] > > ....................... > > > > > Tep: Water as nutriment for plants' growth, as well as > >concentration as nutriment for insight development, has to be > >balanced with other > > > supporting conditions in order that faster growth can be expected. > > > > I think that it is not "balancing out" as much as developing all > faculties to the max. (see indriya samyutta sutta where it says that > an Arahant has fully developed faculties, and lesser noble people > have lesser developed faculties). > > > Jon: Well, I don't see it as a matter of "faster growth", but of > > simply understanding correctly the conditions for growth. > > > > > Simply "understanding" swimming will NOT help one to actually swim > when the ship is sinking. Simply "understanding" will not remove the > subtle atta view when something happens. > > > > > T: If the practitioner's goal is "7 days to 7 years" as stated in > > Mahasatipatthana Sutta, which is a lot faster than "slowly > > accumulating panna" for aeons, then s/he has to be smart enough to > > support his/her practice with right nutriments with a sense of > > urgency so that they give "faster growth" ! > > > > It is indeed the sense of urgency and relentless training that > > condition faster growth. > > > > For example : > > > > "And if, in the monk recollecting the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha in > > this way, equanimity based on what is skillful is not established, > he > > feels apprehensive at that and gives rise to a sense of > urgency: 'It > > is a loss for me, not a gain; ill-gotten for me, not well-gotten, > > that when I recollect the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha in this way, > > equanimity based on what is skillful is not established within > me.' > > [MN 28] > > > > "Thus you should train yourselves: > > ' We will relentlessly exert ourselves, [thinking,] > >"Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving > >just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what > >can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human > >striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence." ' > > That's how you should train yourselves." > > [AN 2.5: Appativana Sutta. Relentlessly] > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.005.than.html > > > > Tep > > === > > > "This [Arahatship], for him, is victory in the battle. This > individual, I tell you, is like the warrior who can handle the cloud > of dust, the top of the enemy's banner, the tumult, & hand-to-hand > combat. On winning the battle, victorious in battle, he comes out at > the very head of the battle. Some individuals are like this. This is > the fifth type of warrior-like individual who can be found existing > among the monks. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.075.than.html > ====================================================================== > There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual > passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, > even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his > face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is > called the individual who goes against the flow. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html > > then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, > undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very > same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban > or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, > endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on > his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra > desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & > alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful > qualities. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.051.than.html#tur > ban > ============================================================ > > When a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones is touched by a > painful bodily feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does > not beat his breast or become distraught. This is called a well- > instructed disciple of the noble ones who has risen up out of the > bottomless chasm, whose foothold is gained." > > Whoever can't endure them > once they've arisen > painful bodily feelings > that could kill living beings > who trembles at their touch, > who cries & wails, > a weakling with no resiliance: > he hasn't risen up > out of the bottomless chasm > or even gained > a foothold. > > Whoever endures them > once they've arisen > painful bodily feelings > that could kill living beings > who doesn't tremble at their touch: > he's risen up > out of the bottomless chasm, > his foothold is gained. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.004.than.html > > ================================================================== > If evil, unskillful thoughts imbued with desire, aversion or > delusion still arise in the monk while he is attending to the > relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then > with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of > his mouth he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with > his awareness. As with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed > against the roof of his mouth he is beating down, constraining, and > crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts > are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his > mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just > as a strong man, seizing a weaker man by the head or the throat or > the shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, and crush him; in the > same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts imbued with desire, aversion > or delusion still arise in the monk while he is attending to the > relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then > with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of > his mouth he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with > his awareness. As with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed > against the roof of his mouth he is beating down, constraining, and > crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts > are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his > mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html > > > Can people who read the above "effort" quotes really think that > Buddhist path is all and only about passive relaxation and "letting > it just be without letting any interference, which can come only from > an ego, in"? > > > Best wishes, > > > Alex > C: As you asked: Alex: Can people who read the above "effort" quotes really think that Buddhist path is all and only about passive relaxation and "letting it just be without letting any interference, which can come only from an ego, in"? > Well, not according the Buddhist monks with whom I studied. There must be constant determined effort!!! peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104450 From: han tun Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:29 pm Subject: Dhaniya Sutta (3) hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah, and others, I am presenting Snp 1.2 Dhaniya Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and the explanations by Sayadaw U Nyanissara. It is about the dialogue between Dhaniya, a wealthy cattle owner, and the Buddha. Dhaniya lived at the time when the Buddha was staying at Saavatthi. It was the monsoon season, just before the onset of rain. He had built strong shelters for himself, his family and for the cattle on the bank of the River Mahi. The Buddha, however, knew that this family was in danger of being overwhelmed by the flood, and also knew that Dhaniya was ready to take in His teachings and attain spiritual attainment. So by His supernormal powers, He appeared outside of Dhaniya's shelter, at the tree top level. While Dhaniya was rejoicing in the comfort and security, he uttered verses depicting his accomplishments and how he was prepared for the rain, and challenging the rain god to go ahead and rain. The Buddha also uttered verses that play on words of Dhaniya's verses with different meaning. There are a total of 17 verses. I have presented the first two verses. I will now continue with the rest. -------------------- 3. Dhaniya: "No mosquitoes or gadflies are to be found. The cows range in the marshy meadow where the grasses flourish. They could stand the rain if it came: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." 3. Andhakamakasaa na vijjare (iti dhaniyo gopo) Kacche ruu.lhati.ne caranti gaavo, Vu.t.thimpi saheyyumaagata.m Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. 4. The Buddha: "A raft, well-made, has been lashed together. [Note 4] Having crossed over, gone to the far shore, I've subdued the flood. No need for a raft is to be found: [Note 5] so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." 4. Baddhaa hi bhisi susa"nkhataa (iti bhagav) Ti.n.no paaragato vineyya ogha.m, Attho bhisiyaa na vijjati Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. Notes by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: [Note 4].The raft stands for the noble eightfold path. See passages 113 and 114 in The Wings to Awakening. [Note 5]. As this verse doesn't seem to be a direct response to the preceding one, the Commentary suggests that we are missing part of the conversation here. An alternative possibility is that the Buddha is engaging in word play: the word "crossed over" (tinna) being a pun on Dhaniya's reference to grass (tina). -------------------- Han: The reader's attention is drawn to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's comment that the Commentary suggests there was a missing part of the conversation, because the Buddha's verse does not seem to be a direct response to Dhaniya's verse. In this connection, Sayadaw U Nyanissara had an interesting part of the story, which explained why the Buddha said about the raft (bhisi). Before Dhaniya settled down with his cattle on the bank of the River Mahi, he and his cattle were on a big island in the middle of the River Mahi. Dhaniya watched the bird nests on the trees and seeing that the nests were higher that year, he predicted the water level of the River Mahi would be higher than previous years. So he made rafts to carry his cattle to the higher ground on the bank of River Mahi where he was now settling down. But he did not know that it was still not high enough for the overwhelming flood that would sweep his family and his cattle away, if the Budha had not come into the scene. Thus, while Dhaniya had crossed the River Mahi with the rafts, the Buddha said about another raft that He had used. The Buddha said; "A raft, well-made, has been lashed together. Having crossed over, gone to the far shore". Here, the raft stands for the Noble Eightfold Path. It was as if the Buddha was telling Dhaniya not to be rejoicing just because he had crossed the river Mahi with the rafts. It would be necessary to cross over to the far shore with the raft of the Noble Eightfold Path. Then the Buddha said, "I've subdued the flood. No need for a raft is to be found"(ti.n.no paaragato vineyya ogha.m, attho bhisiyaa na vijjati). "I've subdued the flood" (vineyya ogha.m) means the Buddha had crossed over the "oghas". Now, what is "ogha"? Sayadaw explained about the oghas. But to avoid making mistakes and not to omit anything I will, here, quote The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr Mehm Tin Mon. -------------------- Four Oghas (Four Floods) Ogha means flood, torrent, whirlpool, overwhelm or suffocate. Just as great floods sweep away men and animals into the sea, overwhelm, suffocate and drown them, so also the four oghas sweep away beings, overwhelm, suffocate and drown them in the great ocean of sa.msaara. Like four great whirlpools in the broad ocean, they can pull down any being who comes over them, and so it is very difficult to cross over them. The four oghas are similar to the four aasavas, their essential elements being the same. 1 Kaamogha: the flood of sensual desire, 2 Bhavogha: the flood of desire for jhaanas and existence in ruupa planes and aruupa-planes, 3 Di.t.thogha: the flood of false views, 4 Avijjogha: the flood of ignorance. -------------------- I also find ogha in SN 45.171 Ogha Sutta. Monks, these four are floods. What four? They are the flood of sensuality, the flood of being, the flood of views and the flood of ignorance. Monks, for special knowledge, exact comprehension, exhaustion and dispelling of these four floods the Noble Eightfold Path should be developed and made much. How should the Noble Eightfold Path be developed and made much? http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta5/44-Magga-Samyu\ tta/16-Oghavaggo-e.html -------------------- Sayadaw U Nyanissara said that while the Buddha had already crossed over the four oghas, Dhaniya was still swimming in these four oghas. His attachment to his family and to his cattle was kaamogha. His attachment to his life was bhavogha. The thought that his possessions would be permanent was di.t.thogha. Not knowing all these things was avijjogha. To be continued. With metta, Han #104451 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 1 ptaus1 Hi KenO, > >pt: I mean, can it be said that there is no self arising even though anatta characteristic has not been directly seen at that moment by panna? Thanks. > > KO: Yes, there is no self arising during conceptual understanding of dhamma by panna. At conceptual level of understanding, we only understand conceputal level of anatta but not the direct understanding of anatta. pt: Thanks for your reply. This is interesting as I haven't considered it this way before, i.e. I thought that if there's no direct seeing of anatta at the moment, that means that there is still some ignorance present at the moment. However, what you seem to be saying is that in the case of a moment of kusala with panna which doesn't see anatta directly, panna is simply not developed enough there, but that doesn't mean that ignorance is also present at that moment. And if there is no ignorance, then there is no ditthi either at that moment... I think this makes sense to me now, especially when considered in light of abhidhamma teaching on roots, though there are still some details that I can't quite connect as yet. I'll have to consider this for a while. Thanks. Best wishes pt #104452 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ptaus1 Hi KenO, Thanks for your reply. I've checked the katthavathu and its commentary in the library, and I might have found the source of confusion (on a side matter, this was the first time I saw in real life how huge the Pali canon is, it was on four huge shelves and I don't think it was even a complete collection): > KO: The article is base on reasoning and linking the text together basing on Melinda Panha [12] why space is used as unconditiion. However, this point does not agree with the text in the Points of Controversy which I type below. And the text is very clear about space and why it is not classifed as unconditioned. pt: On page 192 in katthavathu, there is first a short intro, which I believe you are basing your opinion on, and which says: "From the commentary. - Space is of three modes: as confined or delimited, as abstracted from object, as empty or inane. Of these the first is conditioned; the other two are mere abstract ideas. But some, like the Uttarapathakas and Mahimsasakas, hold that the two latter modes also, inasmuch as [being mental functions] they are not conditioned, must therefore be unconditioned." The text then proceeds as you quoted. Now, there is one significant omission here - I checked the actual commentary to katthavathu (page 114, paragraph VI), and though the text is the same as above, there is also a note (1) which says that the second type of space - as abstracted from object - is in fact: "kasin'ugghaatim, - referring to Jhana-procedure only." This of course makes a huge difference in the context we are discussing - i.e. it would seem that the second meaning of space in the katthavatthu paragraph you quote doesn't refer to unconditioned space, but to space kasina, which I believe we all agree is a concept. So, in that sense it would seem that Katthavatthu is trying to refute that unconditioned concepts (that include space-kasina) are equivalent to unconditioned nibbana, which makes sense. So, it doesn't seem to be referring to the unconditioned space at all. Though, to be honest, I don't really understand why refer to birds, houses, suns, etc, if only space-kasina is discussed. Perhaps the first two points refer to space-kasina, while the last two points refer to the third definition as conventional space concept. But, I don't know, and I'll be glad to hear if you and Sarah come to any more definite conclusions in Bangkok. Best wishes pt > In Points of Controversy, pg 192. this question is after the question is that attainment of Cessation is uncondition. And after this question, the other question is space visible - which is not a question of thusness. Now the matter is discuss in pg 192 > > <<[1] Th - If space is unconditioned, as you affirm, you must class it with Nibbana, or you must affirm two [sorts of] unconditioned - and so two Nibbanas - all of which you deny .... > > [2] Can anyone make space where there has been no space? Then one can make that which is conditoned unconditioned - which you deny ... So, too, for the reverse process > > [3] Again, if you admit that birds go through space, moon, sun, and stars go though space, supernormal movement is worked in space, the arm or hand is waved in space, clods, clubs, a supernormally moved person, arrows are projected through space, you must state as much about movement through or in the unconditioned - which you cannot,... > > [4] Again, if people enclose space when they make houses or barns, do they enclose the unconditioned? Or when a well is dug, does space become space? Yes? Then does the unconditioned become conditioned? Or when an empty well, or an empty barn, or an empty jar, is filled, does "space" disapper? If so, does the unconditioned disappear?>> #104453 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ptaus1 Hi Chuck, > Partial quote: > > ...Later Buddhist schools have regarded it as one of several unconditioned or uncreated states (asankhata dharma) - a view that is rejected in Kath. (s. Guide. p. 70). Theravada Buddhism recognises only Nibbana as an unconditioned element (asankhatadhatu: s. Dhs. 1084). pt: Thanks for the quote. I really appreciate Ven.Nyanatiloka's dictionary and often it's the first point of reference when I try to research some topic. That said, I think it's also important to go back to the actual sources - tipitaka and commentaries, especially when we are dealing with such a complex subject as space. E.g. when we compare the sources I just quoted to KenO in the previous message, as well as Milinda Panha, the subject doesn't seem to be quite so simple. Unfortunately, Ven.Nyanatiloka is not alive anymore so that we could ask him for a clarification, so we have to discuss this among ourselves and hopefully ask other people. Perhaps Sarah and Ken can ask A.Sujin about it in Bangkok. Perhaps you can ask your ajahn about it. That would be valuable input to consider. Best wishes pt #104454 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:26 pm Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Jon, KenH, all, > > >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > The idea of "properly directed effort" is a conventional one. > > The >effort spoken of by the Buddha is quite different: it is a > > dhamma, specifically, a mental factor that accompanies kusala > > citta. > > Please explain the anusota sutta. ----------------- Hi Alex, Thanks for including me in this. I am sure you already know my answer to any, and every, question at DSG: "There are only dhammas." :-) ----------- A: > Sure, effort *is* mental factor. However it doesn't mean that there is no effort. ----------- KH: It means there is no effort other than the mental factor. There is no "directed effort" for example. ---------------------------------- Jon: > > Would you agree, from your experience in life, that kusala can and does arise in a day without there being directed effort? A: > Intentional actions that arises naturally, once were NOT natural. It may be natural to ride a bike for an adult. But not for a child who hasn't learned it, "un-naturally". All of this is not-Self, of course. ---------------------------------- KH: To non-Dhamma-students there will always seem to be directed efforts, and those directed efforts will seem to bring results. Even Dhamma students can get caught out by this very convincing illusion. A Dhamma student, however, can always know that there are really only dhammas Even when he is trying to ride a bike he can know that, in absolute reality, there is no him, no bike, no effort, no riding, no falling off. There are only dhammas - one citta, some cetasikas and some rupas. Ken H #104455 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject dhammasaro Good friend pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend pt, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > ... snip > > > > As I understand it, she's saying that the commentary definition you >quote is not related to space but to wrong understanding of >"thusness" by some other school. Anyway, just thought I should >bring it to your attention in case you missed it, that post is quite >long and it took me a few readings to understand what's going on >there. > > > > Best wishes > > pt > > > > If I may interject: > > 1. Warm thanks for your kindness. > > 2. If I may quote from the Buddhist Dictionary by Bhikkhu Nyanatiloka, page 10 in reference to space (akasa): > > [Side bar: I know... I know... it is not approved by DSG as a reference dictionary.] > > Partial quote: > > ...Later Buddhist schools have regarded it as one of several unconditioned or uncreated states (asankhata dharma) - a view that is rejected in Kath. (s. Guide. p. 70). Theravada Buddhism recognises only Nibbana as an unconditioned element (asankhatadhatu: s. Dhs. 1084). > > End partial quote. > > Again, warm thanks... > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck > C: Please accept my apology. Sorry, I was not clear in my message to you. The intent was to confirm: Quote: Theravada Buddhism recognises only Nibbana as an unconditioned element (asankhatadhatu: s. Dhs. 1084). ... Ajahn Nyanatiloka does not make up definitions!!! My ajahns fully agree as well as I do!!! I am positive the Tipitaka agrees as well!!! peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104456 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Awareness of present moment. sarahprocter... Dear Kens H & O, --- On Sun, 10/1/10, kenhowardau wrote: KO: > > because we are thinking "this is my computer". We believe we possess the computer. There is a self in computer. We clings to the computer as mine or myself. --------- KH:>Regardless of whether it is my computer or your computer (or for that matter, the Eiffel Tower) attanuditthi sees it as a persisting entity. ... S: Yes, thx for interrupting! ... >People with *strong* attanudhitthi views will invariably also have sakkayaditthi views. I think that is what A Sujin was saying. Corrections welcome. .... S: Or to put it another way, because of sakkayaditthi, invariably there will be other kinds of attanuditthi as well as other wrong views. When sakkayaditthi is eradicated, so are these other kinds of wrong view. There is not more idea of a persisting entity or the taking of the impermanent for permanent. Metta Sarah ======== #104457 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- On Sat, 9/1/10, ashkenn2k wrote: >KO: Hmm, I still dont buy your idea that attanuditthi is wider than sakkayaditthi as you have not shown my any textual references. I believe you base your idea that attanuditthi is opposite of anatta which I initially thought so also. That is how I felt you think that attanuditthi is wider. ... S: We read the same texts, but we have a different understanding of them in this regard. Atta is the opposite of anatta. When there is belief in atta, it is attanuditthi. Attasa~n~naa perceives an atta, a 'thing' in the khandha. .... >Now explaining why when we cling to a different thing it is a sakkayditthi because we are thinking "this is my computer". We believe we possess the computer. There is a self in computer. We clings to the computer as mine or myself. ... S: Often there is the taking of the hardness or visible object for a thing', such as a computer, without any idea at all of 'my' or 'me'. This is attanuditthi, not sakkaya ditthi. [I'll let you take up the passage you've quoted a few times with K.Sujin herself:-)] ... > S: It is because of attanuditthi that the impermanent is taken for permanent, for something. This is why when attanuditthi is eradicated, so is the taking of the impermanent for permanent. KO: No, taking impermanent as permanent is miccha ditthi not attanuditthi as attanuditthi is about a doctrine of self. ... S: No (!), it's about taking the reality for a 'thing' and at such a moment, there is no understanding of the dhamma as anatta and therefore an impermanent element. > ... > S: Young children and animals don't think or have ideas about realities, so no ditthi, but plenty of lobha, dosa and avijja. > > Like children buidling sand-castles on the beach for hours - no wrong views, just lots of lobha and ignorance and dosa when someone annoys them or messes up the castle. >KO: Young tender infant i belive there is no ditthi as they still do not develop yet the idea of self. But when you said that young children, I believe they do understand. At a very young age, they know they like to have this hairstyle or that. They know when they are looking at the mirror, they know it is their image they are looking at. ... S: Most of the time just with attachment as the quotes you gave from the Atth. showed -like when lost in lobha whilst watching a show, no thought about reality or existence or any views at all. ... >An animal definitely has sakkayditthi as they have knowledge of self. They know the body they have are themselves. But not all animal has that ability. We got to do a mirror test on them :-). ... S: Lobha and moha - again like when we're lost in the movie (i.e. most of the day)... OK, more in KK .....you can argue with the Senior Dinosaur:-)) Metta Sarah ======== #104458 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ashkenn2k Dear pt The way it is written also to be not very clear. After reading for quite a few times, it is meant if space is unconditional how could conditional things like birds, moon, sun and star go through them. IMHO, that is the explanation on point 3. [3] Again, if you admit that birds go through space, moon, sun, and stars go though space, supernormal movement is worked in space, the arm or hand is waved in space, clods, clubs, a supernormally moved person, arrows are projected through space, you must state as much about movement through or in the unconditioned - which you cannot,... KO: > > >Hi KenO, > >Thanks for your reply. I've checked the katthavathu and its commentary in the library, and I might have found the source of confusion (on a side matter, this was the first time I saw in real life how huge the Pali canon is, it was on four huge shelves and I don't think it was even a complete collection): > >> KO: The article is base on reasoning and linking the text together basing on Melinda Panha [12] why space is used as unconditiion. However, this point does not agree with the text in the Points of Controversy which I type below. And the text is very clear about space and why it is not classifed as unconditioned. > >pt: >On page 192 in katthavathu, there is first a short intro, which I believe you are basing your opinion on, and which says: > >"From the commentary. - Space is of three modes: as confined or delimited, as abstracted from object, as empty or inane. Of these the first is conditioned; the other two are mere abstract ideas. But some, like the Uttarapathakas and Mahimsasakas, hold that the two latter modes also, inasmuch as [being mental functions] they are not conditioned, must therefore be unconditioned. " The text then proceeds as you quoted. > >Now, there is one significant omission here - I checked the actual commentary to katthavathu (page 114, paragraph VI), and though the text is the same as above, there is also a note (1) which says that the second type of space - as abstracted from object - is in fact: >"kasin'ugghaatim, - referring to Jhana-procedure only." > >This of course makes a huge difference in the context we are discussing - i.e. it would seem that the second meaning of space in the katthavatthu paragraph you quote doesn't refer to unconditioned space, but to space kasina, which I believe we all agree is a concept. > >So, in that sense it would seem that Katthavatthu is trying to refute that unconditioned concepts (that include space-kasina) are equivalent to unconditioned nibbana, which makes sense. So, it doesn't seem to be referring to the unconditioned space at all. > >Though, to be honest, I don't really understand why refer to birds, houses, suns, etc, if only space-kasina is discussed. Perhaps the first two points refer to space-kasina, while the last two points refer to the third definition as conventional space concept. But, I don't know, and I'll be glad to hear if you and Sarah come to any more definite conclusions in Bangkok. > >Best wishes >pt > #104459 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (3) nilovg Dear Han, Thank you very much. I agree with you that the sutta becomesa much more meaningful as we study it. I am glad with your notes and the way the Buddha's raft has been explained. Dhaniya feels very comfortable with his cattle, clinging to possessions and does not know about the floods that are far worse, far more dangerous. His kilesas. These will make him wander on in samsara where he will meet dangers all the time. Nina. Op 17-jan-2010, om 1:29 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > 4. The Buddha: > "A raft, well-made, has been lashed together. [Note 4] > Having crossed over, gone to the far shore, > I've subdued the flood. No need for a raft is to be found: [Note 5] > so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." #104460 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Op 15-jan-2010, om 9:11 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > According that text, when there is an object, one can investigate > "How arises name and form?". How the "I" arises in this same > instant?. > In this same instant there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & > re-arising. > It happens all the time while we are in relation with the many > objects. When there is seeing of an object, quickly arises an > appropriation towards that. ------ N: We define it very quickly and believe that we see a person or thing. We do not realize that seeing sees only what is visible. --------------- > V: In that sudden movement arises name&form > and consciousness, then atta. At least reading this relate, it seems > one must be aware from the first moment of the relation of dependence > between the arising of consciousness and name&form. ------- N: Name stands here for cetasikas that accompany consciousness or citta. It is very difficult to distinguish between citta and cetasikas. Sati can be aware either of citta or of cetasika, but not before the first stage of insight wisdom has arisen, which is direct understanding. The development of insight is stage by stage. The first stage is knowing through direct understanding the difference between the characteristic of naama, that experiences something, and ruupa, that does not experience anything. At this moment it seems that seeing and visible object appear together, and it is true that when there is seeing there is also visible object, But sati can be aware of only one object at a time. When it seems that several realities appear together, it is only thinking. Before the first stage of insight it is not possible to directly understand the Dependent Origination. We can only think of the terms. ---------- I quote: When visible object appears there is also seeing, the experience of visible object. Visible object does not experience anything, whereas seeing experiences an object, visible object. When there is mindfulness it is aware of only one object, either a physical reality or a mental reality. Each citta experiences only one object, and thus when mindfulness accompanies the citta, it can be aware of only one object at a time. It is very difficult to distinguish sound from hearing and visible object from seeing. Only when insight, direct understanding of realities, has been developed, physical realities and mental realities can be distinguished from each other. So long as there is confusion about the difference between what is mental and what is physical, there is still an image or a concept of a whole. ---------- Quote from Survey: Now, at this moment, sati can arise and be aware of one characteristic of nma or rpa at a time, as it appears through one of the six doorways. In this way pa can gradually develop to the degree of clearly knowing the difference between the characteristic of nma and the characteristic of rpa. Pa will, for example, be able to distinguish between the characteristic of the nma which hears and of the rpa which is sound. These are different characteristics and they should be known one at a time. Eventually one will become more familiar with the true nature of nma and of rpa and then the understanding of their characteristics will become more accomplished. No matter which type of nma or rpa appears, and no matter where, awareness and understanding of them can naturally arise, and that is the development of satipatthna in daily life. When understanding develops and becomes more accomplished, ignorance can gradually be eliminated. ------- N: We have to remember what Kh Sujin said to you: she is not trying to make anything arise. Sati cannot be directed to the D. O. Nina. #104461 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:35 am Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 truth_aerator Dear KenH, KenO, Jon, Sarah, Nina, all >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon, KenH, all, > > > > >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > Hi Alex > > > The idea of "properly directed effort" is a conventional one. > > > The >effort spoken of by the Buddha is quite different: it is a > > > dhamma, specifically, a mental factor that accompanies kusala > > > citta. > > > > Please explain the anusota sutta. > ----------------- > > > > Hi Alex, > > Thanks for including me in this. I am sure you already know my >answer to any, and every, question at DSG: "There are only dhammas." >:-) I agree that everything can be analyzed into component parts. This doesn't need to refute the function of the whole (or of component parts taken together). > > ----------- >A: > Sure, effort *is* mental factor. However it doesn't mean that >there is no effort. > ----------- > > KH: It means there is no effort other than the mental factor. But does that mental factor has effort? It is not just passive and fatalistic acceptance and doing of akusala (and kusala). > There is no "directed effort" for example. Suttas often say otherwise. They do show the imperative to do kusala and avoid akusala (such as knifing some guy down the street). > A Dhamma student, however, can always know that there are really >only dhammas Even when he is trying to ride a bike he can know that, >in absolute reality, there is no him, no bike, no effort, no riding, >no falling off. There are only dhammas - one citta, some cetasikas >and some rupas. So, according to the above: There is no killer or the killed. There is no knife that cuts the other person's throat. It is just one rupa passing between other rupas, and a whole lot of cittas who we should try to control by denying the various akusala urges. So, KenH. Is it alright to cut the throats of other people? After all, there is no me, no them, no knife, no effort to kill (and before that to rape and maim). With metta, Alex #104462 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Chuck ...., you wrote: ( D: Being in consensus with this resource (and assuming no major errors) I wonder why the discussion about the samadhi part of the Noble Path seems to remain fruitless ..) I agree with you. I wonder why Jon does not as he recently wrote he prefers DSG use some glossary of terms, as I wrote to good friend Sarah: Quote: C: According to a message to me, from Jon, a few days ago, he stated you, DSG, use the glossary of terms (?) in one of Ajahm Bodhi's tomes. He wrote no thing about my preference. He ignored it!!! Perhaps, you and Jon resolve this dichotomy.I write as I am told!!! as ever... End quote. Warm thanks for re-enforcing my view and my ajahns' views. D: Actually my wondering refers to numerous disputes on DSG concerning the point of meditation or more precisely the samadhi part of the sila , samdhi , panna noble path training. I haven`t read your exchange with Jon, but please have in mind, that Bhikkhu Bodhi studied with Nyanaponika M.T. , who himself was a student of Nyanatiloka M.T. , so do not expect major differences in a glossary of that line. with Metta Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: charlest To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 7:53 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary Good friend Dieter Moeller, et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Sarah ,Jon, All, > > you wrote : > > " Jon, I and many others have been referring to this dictionary for decades and quoting from it for ten years on DSG. Yes, it does contain some errors as would any modern reference text, but this does not mean it's not an invaluable resource, full of helpful references as we've often commented." > > > well said , Sarah ! Actually it is more than a dictionary , it is manual , I.M.H.O. written by somebody with deep understanding of the Buddha Dhamma. I still admire this great monk , being the second westener admitted into the Order about 100 years ago. (You may know that Nyanaponika Maha Thera was his student and Bhikkhu Bodhi learnt much from the latter.) > > Being in consensus with this resource (and assuming no major errors) I wonder why the discussion about the samadhi part of the Noble Path > seems to remain fruitless .. > > with Metta Dieter > C: I agree with you. I wonder why Jon does not as he recently wrote he prefers DSG use some glossary of terms, as I wrote to good friend Sarah: Quote: C: According to a message to me, from Jon, a few days ago, he stated you, DSG, use the glossary of terms (?) in one of Ajahm Bodhi's tomes. He wrote no thing about my preference. He ignored it!!! Perhaps, you and Jon resolve this dichotomy. I write as I am told!!! as ever... End quote. Warm thanks for re-enforcing my view and my ajahns' views. peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104463 From: Vince Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:16 pm Subject: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: We define it very quickly and believe that we see a person or > thing. We do not realize that seeing sees only what is visible. yes > N: Name stands here for cetasikas that accompany consciousness or > citta. It is very difficult to distinguish between citta and > cetasikas. Sati can be aware either of citta or of cetasika, but not > before the first stage of insight wisdom has arisen, which is direct > understanding. The development of insight is stage by stage. I don't have idea of the enormous variety of persons but on my side at least I cannot agree about the existence of some recurrence in what arises devoid of time and therefore non-mediatized. If we understand Insight as a direct knowledge but at same time we claim the existence of time (stages) in the Insight, then the Insight lose his direct and no-mediatized aspect. Because to claim the existence of recurrence and existence of stages, also we would need the knowledge of different objects. And if we say the object of the Insight is only one then we are not talking of the same object but of different ones, precisely because when we claim different insights we are endowing them with different qualities conforming different objects, not only one. And from here the need of different paramatha-dhammas. When Sati is aware of something, it is the self who perform the action. Sati includes the appropriation performed by the self (PTS Sati definition: "included mindfulness, alertness, lucidity of mind, self -- possession, conscience, self -- consciousness") So I understand there are not different insights neither stages of insight. There is only the Insight into Truth, and it is the same for sotapanna or arhant. However, it will be interpreted later as more or less deeper in dependence of the absence of defilements (ie; fermentations). And it will be in this way until all interpretations will be exhausted. Fermentations are the real judge of the actual level of progress, not the different Insights. Because what pursues the liberation is the self, not non-self. Then it is a way for the eradication of Ignorance instead of accumulating knowledge. I understand this difference of a superior importance, because in the eradication there is not appropriation, while in the accumulation it is. And then, anyone who is using his intellect as the main weapon for bhavana he must be very aware of that, because the intellect works by a constant appropriation. I understand the classifications of insights and stages will arise later according our intellectual understanding of what happened. Because our intellectual understanding always build a distorted image of what cannot be grasped. What I cannot understand, it's about the need of some remanent or roots of the fermentations which must be present in some way while there is insight. At the contrary we will be arhants at the first insight experience or perhaps we would not have memory of the same Insight. Therefore, it must be a deeper connection with kamma to cause rebirth despite when there is nibbana the kamma lacks of any sense. So I cannot understand why it happens. but I understand it doesn't have to do with different Insight stages. Stages are a subsequent elaboration of the understanding according rebirth, fermentations and dukkha. > The first stage is knowing through direct understanding the difference > between the characteristic of naama, that experiences something, and > ruupa, that does not experience anything. > At this moment it seems that seeing and visible object appear > together, and it is true that when there is seeing there is also > visible object, But sati can be aware of only one object at a time. > When it seems that several realities appear together, it is only > thinking. only if you endow the plurality with substance for the arise of individualities. But the plurality of objects in a whole can be an object for contemplation and the arising of panna, in the same way that we grasp the forest without the vanishing of trees. In this way the whole reality existing here and now become a vehicle for insight. "These trees and creepers, though unconscious, yet by the season's fulfilment, have won full growth. Why should not I, who have obtained suitable season, win growth by good qualities?" Pondering thus, he strove and obtained insight (Thag.v.110; ThagA.i.217f). At the other side, if we deny the plurality existing here and now we fall in anhillationism and impeding the arising of panna. > Before the first stage of insight it is not possible to directly > understand the Dependent Origination. We can only think of the terms. but what you says here seems to be a circular argument without exit. Is there some example of thinking without using terms?. In this text Buddha is thinking in D.O. with terms, and later arises the Insight. Obviously both name&form and consciousness were terms because they were managed before the insight arises: "Then the thought occurred to me, 'This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising, i.e., from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media... Thus is the origination of this entire mass of stress. Origination, origination.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before." *SN 12.65 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html Dependent Origination is the explanation of the way to get a cease. It was explained by Buddha, therefore thinking in the terms appearing in Dependent Origination becomes so useful or more than thinking in many Abhidhamma terms. Specially because D.O. was previous to Abhidhamma. But the matter is when both are not opposite things but precisely I talk about how to fit them. Although we cannot grasp the D.O. elements as isolated objects to be analyzed by our understanding we can understand the process for the arising of panna. Complete knowledge of Dependent Origination elements as well the Abhidhamma elements as isolated objects, it is in the reach of only arhants. Only a person whose fermentations have finished can be be able to know and be aware of the -self building process without any grasping, and from here he can identify in depth the elements involved. In a similar way, if we live in a house in permanent construction, only that person who leaves the house and remain outside to contemplate the work, he can know the process of building in depth. Rest we only can infer some things. And even if we go out for a short time, quickly we return into the house and then it will be not enough to describe the process in detail. However, both arhant and sotapanna they left using the same door and they see the same house. But even in the case of arhants, the identification cannot be an exact correspondence with the Truth, because any identification include putting names and the building of objects for the understanding. I think quite obvious this is the problem with the parammatha-dhammas. These explanations have the goal to serve the best and accurate explanation as possible in order to help others to reach the goal. They are not a literal reflection of the Truth precisely because they are a reflection and not the thing in itself, still more when also we are the mirage and we will distort them. Also I think it's quite obvious the reason behind the existence of schools and interpretations. They arose not from different truths or insights types but because the concern to provide the best explanation for the understanding. As any explanation cannot be a perfect reflection of the Truth, then everybody can feel the rest with imperfections. Therefore the diverse doctrinal expositions and rectifications are so logical as needed. And Abhidhamma it's the same case. > when insight, direct understanding of realities, has been developed, > physical realities and mental realities can be distinguished from > each other. So long as there is confusion about the difference > between what is mental and what is physical, there is still an image > or a concept of a whole. when there is not confusion between mental and physical it is precisely because there is not grasping of mental or physical. Then there is only a whole which is emptiness. Not nama and rupa and not consciousness. While there is grasping of any object (be intellectual objects, paramatha-dhammas objects, consciousness object) that's not nibbana. > Quote from Survey: > [...] > When understanding develops and becomes more accomplished, ignorance > can gradually be eliminated. so precisely, I understand it means not about accumulating knowledge and objects but about leaving objects and eradicating errors. Doctrine give us objects in order to leave them. > N: We have to remember what Kh Sujin said to you: she is not trying > to make anything arise. > Sati cannot be directed to the D. O. Maybe you understand D.O. in different terms of what I understand they represents: just they are more terms. Up there is the SN 12.65, and at least I cannot where is the the Sati absence or the difference regarding Sati if we use Abhidhamma. If you can comment that, I will be grateful to read it. (as always, sorry for the longitude!!) best wishes, Vince, #104464 From: han tun Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (3) hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: Thank you very much. I agree with you that the sutta becomes a much more meaningful as we study it. I am glad with your notes and the way the Buddha's raft has been explained. Dhaniya feels very comfortable with his cattle, clinging to possessions and does not know about the floods that are far worse, far more dangerous. His kilesas. These will make him wander on in samsara where he will meet dangers all the time. Han: Thank you very much for your kind feed-back. It is very encouraging for me. Respectfully, Han #104465 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:02 pm Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 kenhowardau Hi Alex, ------ <. . .> KH: "There are only dhammas." A: > I agree that everything can be analyzed into component parts. ------- I wonder if we are talking about the same thing. Please explain what you mean by "everything can be analyzed into component parts." ---------------------- A: > This doesn't need to refute the function of the whole (or of component parts taken together). ---------------------- Taken together, the "component parts" simply form a group, or collection, of dhammas (one citta and some cetasikas and rupas). Or at least that's how I see it. How do you see it? Which particular functions does "the whole" perform? -------------------------------- > > ----------- >A: > Sure, effort *is* mental factor. However it doesn't mean that >there is no effort. > ----------- > > KH: It means there is no effort other than the mental factor. A: > But does that mental factor has effort? It is not just passive and fatalistic acceptance and doing of akusala (and kusala). ---------------------------------- No, it does not have effort. ----------------------------------------------- KH: > > There is no "directed effort" for example. A: > Suttas often say otherwise. ------------------------------------------------- Name one sutta that says there is another kind of effort - in addition to vayama-cetasika. ------------------------------- A: > They do show the imperative to do kusala and avoid akusala (such as knifing some guy down the street). ------------------------------- They show the imperative to do kusala, yes. But, actually, knifing some guy in the street is just a concept, and therefore you can't say it is necessarily akusala. When, for example, a paramedic performs emergency surgery on someone in the street that is not akusala, is it? ---------------------- <. . .> KH: > > There are only dhammas - one citta, some cetasikas >and some rupas. A: > So, according to the above: There is no killer or the killed. ---------------------- That's right. ------------- A: > There is no knife that cuts the other person's throat. ------------- What "other person's throat" are you talking about? In the ultimately real world, in which there is no knife, there is also no person and no throat. Surely you can see that! ---------------------- A: > It is just one rupa passing between other rupas, --------------------- Does a rupa pass between other rupas? Is that included in the Abhidhamma's list of rupa functions? I don't think so. -------------- A: > and a whole lot of cittas who we should try to control by denying the various akusala urges. So, KenH. Is it alright to cut the throats of other people? After all, there is no me, no them, no knife, no effort to kill (and before that to rape and maim). -------------- As I said to Herman shortly before he left, you can have endless fun mixing conventional reality with ultimate reality. You can make us Abhidhamma students look silly. But, really, aren't you the one who is being silly? Ken H #104466 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:36 pm Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 truth_aerator Hi KenH, KenO, Nina, All, >--- "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Alex, > > ------ > <. . .> > KH: "There are only dhammas." > > A: > I agree that everything can be analyzed into component parts. > ------- > > I wonder if we are talking about the same thing. Please explain >what you mean by "everything can be analyzed into component parts." NamaRupa for short. Or 5 Aggregates, or 12 ayatana or 18 dhatu. Or citta, cetasika, rupa and Nibbana. > ---------------------- > A: > This doesn't need to refute the function of the whole (or of component parts taken together). > ---------------------- > > Taken together, the "component parts" simply form a group, or collection, of dhammas (one citta and some cetasikas and rupas). Or at least that's how I see it. > > How do you see it? Which particular functions does "the whole" >perform? The whole has a function that is not found within its induvidial parts. Ex the famous chariot simile. Chariot can transport people. None of its parts can do it. Water (H2O) has emergent properties not found in Hydrogen or Oxygen. > > -------------------------------- > > > > ----------- > >A: > Sure, effort *is* mental factor. However it doesn't mean that >there is > no effort. > > ----------- > > > > KH: It means there is no effort other than the mental factor. > > A: > But does that mental factor has effort? It is not just passive and fatalistic acceptance and doing of akusala (and kusala). > ---------------------------------- > > No, it does not have effort. > What? How can mental factor of effort, have no effort? This is contradiction! > ----------------------------------------------- > KH: > > There is no "directed effort" for example. > > A: > Suttas often say otherwise. > ------------------------------------------------- > > Name one sutta that says there is another kind of effort - in >addition to vayama-cetasika. "This [Arahatship], for him, is victory in the battle. This individual, I tell you, is like the warrior who can handle the cloud of dust, the top of the enemy's banner, the tumult, & hand-to-hand combat. On winning the battle, victorious in battle, he comes out at the very head of the battle. Some individuals are like this. This is the fifth type of warrior-like individual who can be found existing among the monks. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.075.than.html ====================================================================== There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10an10.051.than.html#tur ban > > ------------------------------- > A: > They do show the imperative to do kusala and avoid akusala (such as knifing some guy down the street). > ------------------------------- > >They show the imperative to do kusala, yes. But, actually, knifing >some guy in the street is just a concept, and therefore you can't >say it is necessarily akusala. > What "other person's throat" are you talking about? In the >ultimately real world, in which there is no knife, there is also no >person and no throat. Surely you can see that! What? It is not bad to knife some guy down the street because "the killer, killed and knife" are just concepts? Terrible! Ken, how could you say this! This is perverse teaching! Buddha didn't teach this!!!! With metta, Alex #104467 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:40 pm Subject: Re: Jill gazita2002 hallo Ann,Sarah,Nina,RobK Thank you for your thoughts. Sarah, GillyP spoke at the funeral service and asked me for a 'buddhist' quote. so sent this to her: "this existence of ours is as transient as autumn clouds To watch the birth and death of beings is like looking at the movements of a dance. A lifetime is like a flash of lightening in the sky, Rushing by like a torrent down a mountain stream" taken from a book about dying by the Dalai Lama. It was supposed to have been spoken by the Buddha. Gillian liked it and apparently featured it into her speech. May all beings be happy azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > > Dear Azita and Sarah > > A: Azita, I know from Pinna that you have been very attentive to Jill. No doubt as a Dhamma friend you shared many valuable moments for both of you. I am sorry for your loss. > > A: Sarah, thank you for the reminder below - one that is so true. We are so easily diverted in our daily life, it is good to see be reminded how we are alone with just one citta at a time. > > > > I find this line of K.Sujin's a very helpful reminder: > > > > "We are alone, we are born alone, live our life alone, die alone." > > > > Just this one citta now... > > > A: I am not familiar with the Jataka story below: > > > > > "She went the way she had to go' - > > > > A: It seems particularly appropriate now - can you give me a reference, or a brief summary? > > Ann > > > #104468 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ptaus1 Hi KenO, > The way it is written also to be not very clear. After reading for quite a few times, it is meant if space is unconditional how could conditional things like birds, moon, sun and star go through them. IMHO, that is the explanation on point 3. pt: Yes, that seems like a possible explanation. Another thing I don't understand - what was the need that these other sects wanted to equate unconditioned space to unconditioned nibbana. I mean, even if space as a reality is unconditioned, that doesn't make it the same as, nor alternative to, nibbana. It's just two completely different realities. So, I could understand the need to underline that fact that space and nibbana are not the same by Theravadins (or was it Sthaviravadins) in Katthavathu, but I don't really see the need that they would argue that space can (or cannot) be unconditioned. It's just what it is after all, and I don't see that it would make much difference to one's practice either way. Anyway, I'm way out of my depth on this topic, so I'll be glad to know what conclusions you come to on this in Bangkok. Best wishes pt #104469 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:32 pm Subject: The Climax of Calm! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Quenched Dimension: Peaceful, tamed, smokeless, wishless, and harmless, unobstructed both in front and behind, untroubled, unconcerned with both past and future, pure, aloof, imperturbable, beyond wavering & doubt, confident, directly knowing, calmed & freed, the Arahat being enters the final state: The cooling of all craving, The stilling of all construction, The releasing of all the clinging, The relinquishing of all acquisition, Detachment, disillusion, ceasing, Formless, senseless and deathless, Silent, free, & blissful pure peace... Nibbna... Yeah!!! <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104470 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ptaus1 Hi Chuck, > C: Please accept my apology. > > Sorry, I was not clear in my message to you. pt: No worries. Here are some of my thoughts on the issue you raise: > C: The intent was to confirm: > > Quote: Theravada Buddhism recognises only Nibbana as an unconditioned element (asankhatadhatu: s. Dhs. 1084). > > ... > > Ajahn Nyanatiloka does not make up definitions!!! > > My ajahns fully agree as well as I do!!! > > I am positive the Tipitaka agrees as well!!! pt: Usually, I accept Ven.Nyanatiloka's definitions without hesitation, but in this particular case I'm a bit intrigued and would like to know what were his sources for concluding that nibbana is the only unconditioned element. I mean, the actual quote that is provided in the dictionary - Dhs.1084, doesn't in fact say "nibbana" in response to the question "Which are the states that are not causally related?", but simply answers "An unconditioned element". [Actually, Dhs. here says "And unconditioned element." But I believe that "And" is a typo for "An", not sure if this was corrected in later editions - I was reading the one from 1974]. So, I mean, if nibbana was the only one, why not just answer "nibbana" here, instead of saying "an unconditioned element" (so not "the unconditioned element" which would also make it clear there's only one). Further, both nibbana and space are sometimes called an "element" (dhatu), so if both were unconditioned, both would fall under the Dhs. answer. The commentary to this part also doesn't mention nibbana specifically, as far as I can tell. It's further intriguing that the question is in plural, as if implying that there are more than one unconditioned states. Dhs.1086 also asks the question in plural - "Which are the states that are unconditioned?" The commentary also talks about the use of plural/singular here (though I can't figure out what it's saying exactly for the life of me, I read it like 20 times, and I still don't quite get it), but it doesn't mention nibbana. Either way, I'm wondering why it wasn't just said "nibbana" in these two cases, and what was the need to stick to generalized statements like "an unconditioned element". And then of course, it is also intriguing that Milinda Panha excerpt which KenO/Sarah quoted (#104430) seems to indicate that space really is unconditioned. Of course, I guess it would depend on whether we consider Milinda Panha to be a part of Tipitaka (I belive it is a part of Burmese Tipitaka edition, but not a part of Thai Tipitaka edition). So anyway, my wondering here is not about whether Ven.Nyanatiloka was right or not, but more about what were the sources/reasons he concluded that nibbana is the only recognised unconditioned element in Theravada. Ideally, it would be really great if we could find a quote from the Tipitaka that explicitly says: a) that nibbana is the only unconditioned element. or b) that space is an unconditioned element in the sense of a paramattha dhamma. Anyway, these are just my thoughts on this issue. Thanks for reading. Best wishes pt #104471 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:56 pm Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 15. nilovg Dear friends, All the realities of ones daily life, also defilements, can be the objects of direct understanding. Defilements can eventually be eradicated when they are are understood as they are: as non-self. If one tries to change ones life in order to create conditions for insight, or if one tries to suppress defilements in order to have more awareness, one is led by clinging and this is not the right way. One should come to understand all realities, the mental and physical phenomena which naturally arise in daily life. The development of insight, of direct understanding of realities, is very intricate and there cannot be an immediate result when one begins to develop it. Is it worth while to begin with its development, even though it takes more than one life to reach the goal? It is beneficial to begin with its development. Theoretical understanding does not eliminate delusion when there is seeing, hearing and the other experiences through the senses and the mind- door. On account of the objects which are experienced there is bound to be attachment, aversion and ignorance. If there is at least a beginning of the development of direct understanding we will be able to verify that our life is one moment of experiencing an object through one of the six doors. When there is seeing, its characteristic can be investigated. It can be understood that it is only a mental reality arising because of its own conditions, not a person or self. It sees what appears through eye-sense. When visible object appears it can be understood that it is only a physical reality, appearing through eye-sense, not a person or thing. All realities appearing through the six doors can be understood as they are, as non-self. Through direct understanding of realities wrong view about them can be eliminated. ******* Nina. #104472 From: han tun Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:37 pm Subject: Dhaniya Sutta (4) hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah, and others, I am presenting Snp 1.2 Dhaniya Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and the explanations by Sayadaw U Nyanissara. It is about the dialogue between Dhaniya, a wealthy cattle owner, and the Buddha. Dhaniya lived at the time when the Buddha was staying at Saavatthi. It was the monsoon season, just before the onset of rain. He had built strong shelters for himself, his family and for the cattle on the bank of the River Mahi. The Buddha, however, knew that this family was in danger of being overwhelmed by the flood, and also knew that Dhaniya was ready to take in His teachings and attain spiritual attainment. So by His supernormal powers, He appeared outside of Dhaniya's shelter, at the tree top level. While Dhaniya was rejoicing in the comfort and security, he uttered verses depicting his accomplishments and how he was prepared for the rain, and challenging the rain god to go ahead and rain. The Buddha also uttered verses that play on words of Dhaniya's verses with different meaning. There are a total of 17 verses. I have presented four verses. I will now continue with the rest. -------------------- 5. Dhaniya: "My wife is compliant, not careless, is charming, has lived with me long. I hear no evil about her at all: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." 5. Gopii mama assavaa alolaa (iti dhaniyo gopo) Diigharatta.m sa.mvaasiyaa manaapaa, Tassaa na su.naami ki~nci paapa.m Atha ce patthayasii pavassa deva. --------- 6. The Buddha: "My mind is compliant, released, has long been nurtured, well tamed. No evil is to be found in me: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." 6. Citta.m mama assava.m vimutta.m (iti bhagav) Diigharatta.m paribhaavita.m sudanta.m, Paapa.m pana me na vijjati Atha ce patthayasii pavassa deva. -------------------- Han: Please read the first sentence of each verse. Dhaniya: Gopii mama assavaa alolaa Buddha: Citta.m mama assava.m vimutta.m The two sentences look very close but the meanings are very much different. While Dhaniya was saying in praise of his wife, the Buddha was saying in praise of His liberated mind. Dhaniya said his wife was compliant. The Buddha said His mind was compliant.. Dhaniya said his wife was free from lola (alola). Lola means greedy, unsteady. The Buddha said His mind was vimutti, free from all kilesas. Here, Sayadaw, quoting the Commentary, said that there are five lola that a woman might have. They are (1) dhana-lola, (2) ala"nkaara-lola, (3) purisa-lola, (4) aahaara-lola, (5) pada-lola. Dhaniya said his wife did not have any of these lola. lola: [adj.] greedy; unsteady. dhana: [nt.] wealth, riches. ala"nkaara : [m.] 1. decoration; 2. an ornament purisa: [m.] a male; a man. aahaara: [m.] food; nutriment. pada: [nt.] foot; foot-step. [pada-lola means all the time going out.] ------------------- Dhaniya said: Diigharatta.m sa.mvaasiyaa manaapaa Buddha said: Diigharatta.m paribhaavita.m sudanta.m, Dhaniya said he has lived with his wife for a long time and she was charming and pleasing to him. Buddha said His mind has long been nurtured, well tamed. How long? For four asankhyeyyas (aeons) and one hundred-thousand world-cycles since he, as Sumedha, met the Buddha Dipankara. How did he tame his mind during this long time? He tamed with daana, siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa and ten paramis. -------------------- Dhaniya said: Tassaa na su.naami ki~nci paapa.m Buddha said: Paapa.m pana me na vijjati Dhaniya said he did not hear no evil about his wife at all, during all these years. The Buddha said that no evil is to be found in Him. Here, Sayadaw said how Maara was watching and waiting for an opportunity to find fault with the Buddha for seven years (six years during dukkara-cariya and one year after the Enlightenment), but he could not find any. To be continued. With metta, Han #104473 From: "charlest" Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject dhammasaro Good friend pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > > C: Please accept my apology. > > > > Sorry, I was not clear in my message to you. > > > pt: No worries. Here are some of my thoughts on the issue you raise: > > > C: The intent was to confirm: > > > > Quote: Theravada Buddhism recognises only Nibbana as an unconditioned element (asankhatadhatu: s. Dhs. 1084). > > > > ... > > > > Ajahn Nyanatiloka does not make up definitions!!! > > > > My ajahns fully agree as well as I do!!! > > > > I am positive the Tipitaka agrees as well!!! > > pt: Usually, I accept Ven.Nyanatiloka's definitions without hesitation, but in this particular case I'm a bit intrigued and would like to know what were his sources for concluding that nibbana is the only unconditioned element. > > I mean, the actual quote that is provided in the dictionary - Dhs.1084, doesn't in fact say "nibbana" in response to the question "Which are the states that are not causally related?", but simply answers "An unconditioned element". [Actually, Dhs. here says "And unconditioned element." But I believe that "And" is a typo for "An", not sure if this was corrected in later editions - I was reading the one from 1974]. > > So, I mean, if nibbana was the only one, why not just answer "nibbana" here, instead of saying "an unconditioned element" (so not "the unconditioned element" which would also make it clear there's only one). Further, both nibbana and space are sometimes called an "element" (dhatu), so if both were unconditioned, both would fall under the Dhs. answer. The commentary to this part also doesn't mention nibbana specifically, as far as I can tell. > > It's further intriguing that the question is in plural, as if implying that there are more than one unconditioned states. Dhs.1086 also asks the question in plural - "Which are the states that are unconditioned?" The commentary also talks about the use of plural/singular here (though I can't figure out what it's saying exactly for the life of me, I read it like 20 times, and I still don't quite get it), but it doesn't mention nibbana. > > Either way, I'm wondering why it wasn't just said "nibbana" in these two cases, and what was the need to stick to generalized statements like "an unconditioned element". > > And then of course, it is also intriguing that Milinda Panha excerpt which KenO/Sarah quoted (#104430) seems to indicate that space really is unconditioned. Of course, I guess it would depend on whether we consider Milinda Panha to be a part of Tipitaka (I belive it is a part of Burmese Tipitaka edition, but not a part of Thai Tipitaka edition). > > So anyway, my wondering here is not about whether Ven.Nyanatiloka was right or not, but more about what were the sources/reasons he concluded that nibbana is the only recognised unconditioned element in Theravada. Ideally, it would be really great if we could find a quote from the Tipitaka that explicitly says: > > a) that nibbana is the only unconditioned element. > or > b) that space is an unconditioned element in the sense of a paramattha dhamma. > > Anyway, these are just my thoughts on this issue. Thanks for reading. > > Best wishes > pt > C: On your two questions: 1. If "a" is true; then, "b" is false. As you state your questions: > a) that nibbana is the only unconditioned element. > or > b) that space is an unconditioned element in the sense of a >paramattha dhamma. The above, a quick answer as I was taught and as Ajahn Nyanatiloka stated. ... 2. On your above statement: "Ideally, it would be really great if we could find a quote from the Tipitaka that explicitly says..." Well, to me your message #104452 contains the answer as you quote the Abhidhamma Katthavathu and its commentary: "From the commentary. - Space is of three modes: as confined or delimited, as abstracted from object, as empty or inane. Of these the first is conditioned; the other two are mere abstract ideas. But some, like the Uttarapathakas and Mahimsasakas, hold that the two latter modes also, inasmuch as [being mental functions] they are not conditioned, must therefore be unconditioned." The text then proceeds as you quoted." ... 3. Is not the Milinda Panha attributed to Nagasena? And, is not this Nagasena the same Nagarjuna who created a revolution in Buddhism with his "The Madhyamaka Philosophy" and many Buddhist scholars consider him the founder, if not one of the founders, of Mahayana Buddism? ... peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104474 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:14 am Subject: Re: Dhaniya Sutta (1) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Just a quick note to say I'm really appreciating your comprehensive and interesting series. I may add more comments later, but have little time to do so at the moment as I have my mother visiting. Thank you very much! Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina, Sarah, and others, > > When I first read Snp 1.2 Dhaniya Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, it is not very interesting. But when I listen to the tapes by Sayadaw U Nyanissara, it becomes suddenly very interesting. I want to share this with the members of DSG. My purpose in presenting this is (i) to get any additional information, if any, on this sutta, and (ii) to correct me if there is any mistake in my presentation. I say this because Sayadaw was talking in Burmese and when I try to write it in English there could be some miss-interpretations. <...> #104475 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > S: Adhisila, adhicitta an adhipanna all refer to the development of >insight > >A: It is great if you accept that Adhicitta (Jhanas) help insight. ... S: This wasn't what I said. At a moment of right understanding of a reality, i.e. with the development of satipatthana, the panna is adhipanna, the concentration is adhicitta and the sila is adhisila. The wisdom, concentration and sila is purer and more refined than the wisdom, concentration and sila in the development of samatha (up to the highest jhanas), because it is leading to the removal of the bricks of samsara - it is "the right path". ... > > >which has to begin with the understanding of nama and rupa now. > > True. But what sort of understanding are we talking about? ... S: We're talking about the understanding that develops with satipatthana - the understanding which knows namas and rupas as anatta, mere temporary dhatus. .... > > >If there is any trying to get a result > > Meditation teachers also warn against craving for results. > > >or to "use" anything for this purpose, it is not the path. > > Even properly using Buddha Dhamma? Didn't He teach us the Dhamma to be used as a raft for crossing the sea to the yonder shore? ... S: Yes, the eightfold path is the raft and it is the attachment to the raft that has to be relinquished. ... >A: Don't waste any moment. True. But there are more and less suitable occasions. It is one thing to try to be mindful of namarupa in the busy kitchen while doing many tasks simultaneously. It is different from observing namarupa in access or higher concentration while sitting in seclusion. .... S: Let's take the first doorway the Buddha always speaks about: the eye-door. What is the difference between visible object in the kitchen and visible object in seclusion? The more understanding there is of visible object, of seeing, of different namas and rupas, the less idea there is of "kitchen" or "concentration" or "sitting in seclusion" as being of any significance on the path. .... >Certain objects may be decisive support conditions for latent tendencies to arise. It is hard for horny guys not to lose mindfulness in a strip club. .... S: Yes, (natural) decisive support condition, not by "trying" to make it happen, but naturally. As Ken O said, would a guy with lots of kusala developed, lots of mindfulness, be interested in going to the strip club? We're not at the strip club, we're discussing dhamma, so we can see what decisive support conditions lead to now - not by trying to have them, but by conditions. .... > > On that note. In anapanasati I do not try to focus on the breath. With more awareness of the body, the mind naturally settles on the breath - a natural rupic phenomena! All normal people breath. Try not to breath for 2 or so minutes :) . .... S: Selection again, otherwise there wouldn't be giving any importance to any one object over another. Detachment means not minding at all what reality appears now - leaving it to conditions:). Metta Sarah ======== #104476 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:37 am Subject: Re: On importance of samatha for direct seeing/understanding sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello KenO, Sarah, Nina all, > > > 1) When one does deep samatha one focus all one's attention at a small area in nama. The more one magnifies something (quality) the less other things (quantity) are present. (picture it as putting a sample under a microscope. You see less area, but more detail) That is done to see clearer a certain aspect of nama, something that cannot be seen when the mind is distracted among 6 senses. > > Then you apply that knowledge (of the mind and mental processes) to other experiences. .... S: This has nothing to do with samatha or panna of any level imho. The same applies to your example of the 2 "Buddhists" and putting the pin through an Abhidhamma book (#104127) which reminded me more of the skills of the original "Rain Man" than of any kind of wisdom or calm in any kusala sense. What you describe is just an example of wrong concentration and wrong view that I think is quite dangerous. Feel free to ignore! Metta Sarah ======== #104477 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:58 am Subject: Happy Boxing Day was Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Scott: I was just clarifying with Mike yesterday why it is that I tend to be so careful around considering these things. We have the Buddha teaching Nakulapitar to think or reason one way, and not another. As you say, 'encouragement.' But how to understand this encouragement? .... Sarah: Natural decisive support condition again.....Hearing about kusala, listening to the Buddha's teachings may be a condition for wise reflection and understanding.....very naturally, of course! > > Now, the Do-It-Your-Selfers will be all over this, suggesting that the Buddha is telling Nakulapitar to 'practice' by thinking about things in a certain way. I mean, one can read the Buddha to be saying that if you think this way - actively, as it were - about the body or feelings, then this is 'training,' and so, therefore, one should think this way in order to 'train.' .... Sarah: Yes, and Alex (hi, Alex!!) will be all over my last comment, too! There's a subtle difference which becomes less and less subtle between a) appreciating the value of helpful reminders and encouraging others to consider them without any idea of practice or atta vs b) following rules, taking action, thinking a particular way, in order to get results. .... > > You suggest that this is 'an inspirational urging.' How would thinking such thoughts be condition for further mental development? Are thoughts like this meant to be actively thought about over and over again? ... Sarah: To your last question, no, this would be an example of b) above, wouldn't it? Like purposely reflecting over and over on nama or on death or on visible object in order to be aware, have calm, develop metta and so on -- in other words, all for oneself with clinging, not detachment. On the other hand, we share reminders together, we open books when we feel inclined because of a real interest in the value of the Dhamma. Just for the sake of the Dhamma, for the sake of right understanding. .... >The thoughts are so slow, and so 'conscious' - like it seems we can just make ourselves think them - so I fail to see how deliberately thinking this way can lead to anything. I am aware that the Buddha was teaching the right way to think about things... ... Sarah: He was just teaching about all kinds of realities, including all kinds of kusala and akusala. We learn that certain kinds of thinking are wise and certain kinds are unwise - he was just pointin to the Truth, not giving orders. ... > > Now for me, and this is what I was saying to Mike, having been enamoured of psychoanalytic postulates in my pre-Dhamma days, and not in any way considering Dhamma to be just some sort of quaint example of a proto-psychology, I'm very careful to consider the Dhamma from the point of view of anatta. .... Sarah: Yes, same - the only way. ... >One of the main aspects of the psychoanalytic enterprise is the notion of an Unconscious - that mental events can have an influence while remaining outside of awareness. > > Considering impermanence as being a function of the rapid arising and falling away of dhammaa, one can suggest that this amounts to 'unconscious process' since we are not aware of this arising and falling away. In other words, as far as it seems, there are no dhammas arising and falling away - it all seems to hold together coherently as is. By suggesting that something is occurring that is outside of normal perception, one might make the argument that this amounts of 'unconscious process.' .... Sarah: We can simply say that almost all the day, there is no awareness, no understanding at any level at all of the realities appearing. Anatta again. .... > > I've not decided whether these ideas of unconscious process fit with the Dhamma. I don't read the Buddha to have taught that there are 'unconscious' mental processes, but this can be inferred. The Buddha wasn't making up psychological theories. If mental events roll on, and if it seems to ordinary perception that these are not happening, then this could be construed to amount to having established that there are effective elements of consciousness of which 'one' is not aware. ... Sarah: Again, it doesn't matter what terms we use, but I think the teaching on anatta and khandhas makes it very difficult to correlate in any meaningful way. However, I know what you mean. .... > > The Buddha taught that wisdom can penetrate 'ordinary perception' and know dhammaa for what they are. He taught that this proceeds by development, and is not immediately apparent. Nakulapitar was very happy with what the Buddha taught him, but we don't read that he experienced the Path as a result. He had a new way to think of things, as far as it seems. He may have experienced a moment of naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naa.na, but this is speculative. .... Sarah: Could you give me a reference again, thx. .... > > The Dhamma makes it clear that there is no Self - no overarching personal agency. This would imply that I can't just take a thought that the Buddha suggested I think and think it, hoping for something to happen thereby - no matter how actively I think it or how often. .... Sarah: Exactly. .... > If the Buddha gives certain things as inspiration to be thought about, how is one to understand this? .... Sarah: Again, "Description" rather than "Prescription" as Jon and others always point out. .... >The Buddha taught Nakulapitar the right way to think about his situation - feelings related to his experience of his aging body. I'd suggest that these thoughts are 'slow.' Thoughts have a coherence but this would be a function of sa~n~naa and other dhammaa, according to Abhidhamma. How would thinking this way help? Is one meant to understand that one ought to think this way? Or, would being taught by the Buddha, and understanding it, lead one to then think this way 'naturally' thereafter? .... Sarah: It depends - just pointing out what is beneficial and what is not. ... > > At any rate, although none of the above is likely very clear, this is some of what I am considering. I'll leave it at that for now. Sorry, as usual, for my incoherence. ... Sarah: Not at all.....a pleasure. Look f/w to any more sharings from your discussions and reflections. Metta Sarah =========== #104478 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:15 am Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 jonoabb Hi Alex (1044100 > > As I see it, the crucial issue is not the prerequisites for enlightenment, but the prerequisites for the development of insight (at a beginning level). Can that development begin without the undertaking of any of the practices you refer to as the preliminary steps/grades? > > It may be possible to reach stream-entry (or higher) without current "formal" practice, for Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu type of individuals. > http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/individu.htm > > But what kind of individuals are we? Can we equal Bahiya and Ven. Sariputta or MahaMoggallana who could achieve maggaphala through listening? > =============== As I mentioned in my last post, the attainment of enlightenment is not the question. The question of relevance for us is the development of insight at a much more beginning level. To my understanding, the undertaking of specific practices is not a prerequisite for beginning levels of awareness/insight to arise (and be developed). Jon #104479 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:19 am Subject: Re: Computer Problems jonoabb Hi Howard (104159) > * I don't actually believe that you and I and "this year" etc are utter > fictions in the same way and to the same degree as are selves, souls, and > unicorns. However, these are not elementary, separate, self-existent, > delineative realities or entities. Precisely, they are cross-temporal complexes of > more elementary phenomena, and they are known only through thinking and by > mental association of related but disparate phenomena (though it may seem > otherwise) and are even more matters of convention than are the underlying > phenomena you like to call "realities". ;-) > =============== Like Nina, I had some thoughts on the distinction between people and unicorns that you talk about here. As you say, both are known only through thinking. From the standpoint of the conventional world in which we live, people exist/are "real", while unicorns do/are not. In terms of the "dhammas" spoken of by the Buddha, however, both people and unicorns are equally without unique characteristic and thus not the object of insight development. Neither the concept of a unicorn nor the concept of a person is something that is to be directly understood as part of the development of the path. Jon #104480 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 17-jan-2010, om 21:16 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Up there is the SN 12.65, and at least I cannot where is the the Sati > absence or the difference regarding Sati if we use Abhidhamma. > If you can comment that, I will be grateful to read it. > -------- N: Could you reformulate your question? I read the sutta, also in otrher translations, Ven. Bodhi. Thank you, Nina. #104481 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ashkenn2k Dear pt >>So, I could understand the need to underline that fact that space and nibbana are not the same by Theravadins (or was it Sthaviravadins) in Katthavathu, but I don't really see the need that they would argue that space can (or cannot) be unconditioned. It's just what it is after all, and I don't see that it would make much difference to one's practice either way. KO: Some of them has the wrong view they perceived space is Nibbana. I read it somewhere where it was mentioned that some ascetics view the jhanas attain at the rupa and arupa jhanas as Nibbana. Some take the 1st jhanas as Nibbana others take the neither perception nor non perception as Nibbana. You are not out of your depth. You are learning faster than I when I first understand Abhidhamma, it takes time and patience. Cheers Ken O > >>pt: Yes, that seems like a possible explanation. > >>Another thing I don't understand - what was the need that these other sects wanted to equate unconditioned space to unconditioned nibbana. I mean, even if space as a reality is unconditioned, that doesn't make it the same as, nor alternative to, nibbana. It's just two completely different realities. > >>So, I could understand the need to underline that fact that space and nibbana are not the same by Theravadins (or was it Sthaviravadins) in Katthavathu, but I don't really see the need that they would argue that space can (or cannot) be unconditioned. It's just what it is after all, and I don't see that it would make much difference to one's practice either way. > >>Anyway, I'm way out of my depth on this topic, so I'll be glad to know what conclusions you come to on this in Bangkok. > >>Best wishes >>pt > > > >> #104482 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Happy Boxing Day was Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... ajahnjose Dear Sarah and all, I was reading the last posts and in the Suttra wich talks about a wife and so on, I get very disturb with my own beleives when Super Powers are attribute to the Buddha. After all in the Vinaya, the three reasons for a Monk to be disrobe are, Dont Kill, no stealing and not to attribute yourself to have super powers, the Buddha was a Monk, so where do we go from that? By the away, I am very well, a young man died in a car accident and his organs were compatible with mine so I got a Lung, two kidneys, a pancreas and gsulbladder, and I am like a new boy, living at the Monastery and walking my dogs. Metta. Ajahn Jose signature Venerable Yanatharo, Ajahn Jose --- On Mon, 18/1/10, sarah wrote: From: sarah Subject: [dsg] Happy Boxing Day was Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Received: Monday, 18 January, 2010, 8:58 PM Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Scott: I was just clarifying with Mike yesterday why it is that I tend to be so careful around considering these things. We have the Buddha teaching Nakulapitar to think or reason one way, and not another. As you say, 'encouragement. ' But how to understand this encouragement? .... Sarah: Natural decisive support condition again.....Hearing about kusala, listening to the Buddha's teachings may be a condition for wise reflection and understanding. ....very naturally, of course! <...> #104483 From: Vince Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:06 am Subject: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina, >> Up there is the SN 12.65, and at least I cannot where is the the Sati >> absence or the difference regarding Sati if we use Abhidhamma. >> If you can comment that, I will be grateful to read it. >> -------- > N: Could you reformulate your question? I read the sutta, also in > otrher translations, Ven. Bodhi. yes, sorry for my spelling. As you wrote Sati cannot be directed to D.O, then I ask: Is Sati absent in the following episode?. "Then the thought occurred to me, 'This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising, i.e., from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media... Thus is the origination of this entire mass of stress. Origination, origination.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before." *SN 12.65 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html best, Vince. #104484 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks jonoabb Hi Chuck (104438) > C: According to a message to me, from Jon, a few days ago, he stated you, DSG, use the glossary of terms (?) in one of Ajahm Bodhi's tomes. > =============== A misunderstanding. I said only that the Bodhi translations were the de facto standard, meaning in general use. There is no standard set for DSG. > =============== He wrote no thing about my preference. He ignored it!!! > =============== You gave a number of possible texts to use as a standard. I mentioned the difficulty in coming to a general agreement on a single standard. I also mentioned why, in my view, having a standard did not necessarily mean better understanding for all. Jon #104485 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:58 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary jonoabb Hi Dieter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Sarah ,Jon, All, > ... > well said , Sarah ! Actually it is more than a dictionary , it is manual , I.M.H.O. written by somebody with deep understanding of the Buddha Dhamma. I still admire this great monk , being the second westener admitted into the Order about 100 years ago. (You may know that Nyanaponika Maha Thera was his student and Bhikkhu Bodhi learnt much from the latter.) > =============== I agree with these remarks about Ven Nyanatiloka, and I regard his Buddhist Dictionary as a very useful source. However, it is not totally error-free. > =============== > Being in consensus with this resource (and assuming no major errors) I wonder why the discussion about the samadhi part of the Noble Path > seems to remain fruitless .. > =============== Perhaps you could remind us what he says on this point. Thanks. Jon #104486 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 18-jan-2010, om 14:06 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > As you wrote Sati cannot be directed to D.O, then I ask: > > Is Sati absent in the following episode?. > > > "Then the thought occurred to me, 'This consciousness turns back at > name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is > birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising, i.e., from > name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from > consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From > name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media... Thus > is the origination of this entire mass of stress. Origination, > origination.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, > knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things > never heard before." -------- N: The highest degree of pa~n~na and of sati of the Bodhisatta who attained omniscience. 'Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, > knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things > never heard before'. Illumination, in Pali obhasa. It is said, the illumination of his omniscience, in the 'Setting in Motion of the Wheel of Dhamma' which uses the same wording. He directly realized the Dependent Origination and also the conditions leading to its cessation. From the cessation of ignorance... When there is pa~n~naa it is always accompanied by sati and other sobhana cetasikas. ------- Nina. #104487 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Happy Boxing Day was Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nilovg Venerable Yanatharo, I am so happy to hear that your health is good and that you had new transplantations. The Buddha was very special. He is called the Person with the Ten Powers, dasabala. The Ten Powers (dasabala) are explained in the Middle Length Sayings, sutta 12, Mahaasiihanadasutta (I, 70, 71).These are knowledge of kamma and its result, knowledge of the world. which is, as the commentary states, the world of the khandhas, aayatanas (sensefields) and dhaatus (elements). These powers also include knowledge of his former lives, knowing the passing away and rebirth of other beings, knowledge of the disposition and the faculties of other beings, etc. . with respect, Nina. Op 18-jan-2010, om 11:32 heeft Ajahn Jose het volgende geschreven: > I was reading the last posts and in the Suttra wich talks about a > wife and so on, I get very disturb with my own beleives when Super > Powers are attribute to the Buddha. After all in the Vinaya, the > three reasons for a Monk to be disrobe are, Dont Kill, no stealing > and not to attribute yourself to have super powers, the Buddha was > a Monk, so where do we go from that? #104488 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:11 am Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 jonoabb Hi Alex (104440) > > The idea of "properly directed effort" is a conventional one. The >effort spoken of by the Buddha is quite different: it is a dhamma, >specifically, a mental factor that accompanies kusala citta. > > Please explain the anusota sutta. > =============== Would you mind giving a reference for the sutta, please? Thanks. > =============== Sure, effort *is* mental factor. However it doesn't mean that there is no effort. > =============== The mental factor of effort does not manifest as (conventional) directed effort. One is a dhamma, the other is discursive thinking involving wishing/intending to do something, > =============== > >Would you agree, from your experience in life, that kusala can and >does arise in a day without there being directed effort? > > Intentional actions that arises naturally, once were NOT natural. > > It may be natural to ride a bike for an adult. But not for a child who hasn't learned it, "un-naturally". > =============== Riding a bike is a skill that can be acquired by the 'trial and error' method. However, this does not apply as regards the development of awareness/insight. Only moments of awareness/insight accumulate as awareness or insight. > =============== All of this is not-Self, of course. > =============== All dhammas are not-self. But this can only be properly understood by developed panna. First dhammas need to be seen as only dhammas. Jon #104489 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Alex) - In a message dated 1/18/2010 6:19:46 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Alex (104440) > > The idea of "properly directed effort" is a conventional one. The >effort spoken of by the Buddha is quite different: it is a dhamma, >specifically, a mental factor that accompanies kusala citta. > > Please explain the anusota sutta. > =============== Would you mind giving a reference for the sutta, please? Thanks. -------------------------------------------------- That sutta is AN 4.5, and I presume the part that Alex considers relevant to the conversation you two are having about "properly directed effort" is the following: "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow." ================================= With metta, Howard Right Effort "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" — _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) #104490 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, > "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > S: Adhisila, adhicitta an adhipanna all refer to the development of >insight > > > >A: It is great if you accept that Adhicitta (Jhanas) help insight. > ... > S: This wasn't what I said. At a moment of right understanding of a >reality, i.e. with the development of satipatthana, the panna is >adhipanna, the concentration is adhicitta and the sila is adhisila. At the moment of right understanding there is right understanding. If it is right, then it is supported by right concentration, which is supported by right virtue. Without developing the 1st floor, you can't really develop the 3rd one. The whole structure may fall down and crumble. This can be seen in some awful statements about "no killer, no killed, no knife". Is there right understanding that denies morality? Also: How can there be right understanding if it is impotent and cannot deal with the 5 hindrances and enter Jhana? > > > > Even properly using Buddha Dhamma? Didn't He teach us the Dhamma >to be used as a raft for crossing the sea to the yonder shore? > ... > S: Yes, the eightfold path is the raft and it is the attachment to the raft that has to be relinquished. > ... But you don't abandon the raft in the middle of the sea! > >A: Don't waste any moment. True. But there are more and less suitable occasions. It is one thing to try to be mindful of namarupa in the busy kitchen while doing many tasks simultaneously. It is different from observing namarupa in access or higher concentration while sitting in seclusion. > .... > S: Let's take the first doorway the Buddha always speaks about: the >eye-door. What is the difference between visible object in the >kitchen and visible object in seclusion? The difference is that the visual object in seclusion will not grab your attention as much as seeing your friend cutting a finger. >The more understanding there is of visible object, of seeing, of >different namas and rupas, the less idea there is of "kitchen" or >"concentration" or "sitting in seclusion" as being of any >significance on the path. > .... Then why did the Buddha talk about "home life is crowded and dusty... going forth is like open air... What if I were to shave and become a recluse" ? > .... > S: Selection again, otherwise there wouldn't be giving any >importance to any one object over another. Detachment means not >minding at all what reality appears now - leaving it to conditions:). > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== What if "reality appearing now" is some akusala tendency? Ex: being angry at a kitchen and wanting to strike the other person? With metta, Alex #104491 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:34 am Subject: happiness. nilovg Dear Sarah and all, I am sure you have a happy time with your mother. There is lots of dhamma in the Newspaper. Lodewijk gave me a quotation from the Herald Tribune (Nicholas D. Kristof): 'It's difficult to be truly selfish because generosity feels so good.' I would like to know what your mother thinks of this. Have a happy time, Nina. #104492 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:44 am Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (104440) > > > The idea of "properly directed effort" is a conventional one. The >effort spoken of by the Buddha is quite different: it is a dhamma, >specifically, a mental factor that accompanies kusala citta. > > > > Please explain the anusota sutta. > > =============== > > Would you mind giving a reference for the sutta, please? Thanks. ""And who is the individual who goes with the flow? There is the case where an individual indulges in sensual passions and does evil deeds. This is called the individual who goes with the flow." "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html Can you please explain what you have said about viriya in the light of that sutta? With metta, Alex > > The mental factor of effort does not manifest as (conventional) directed effort. One is a dhamma, the other is discursive thinking involving wishing/intending to do something, > > > =============== > > >Would you agree, from your experience in life, that kusala can and >does arise in a day without there being directed effort? > > Riding a bike is a skill that can be acquired by the 'trial and error' method. However, this does not apply as regards the development of awareness/insight. Only moments of awareness/insight accumulate as awareness or insight. > panna. First dhammas need to be seen as only dhammas. > > Jon > #104493 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (4) nilovg Dear Han, It is striking when comparing the Pali. Without Pali the meaning would be lost. I like the last part about the mind being well tamed. Nina. Op 18-jan-2010, om 8:37 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Dhaniya said he has lived with his wife for a long time and she was > charming and pleasing to him. > > Buddha said His mind has long been nurtured, well tamed. How long? > For four asankhyeyyas (aeons) and one hundred-thousand world-cycles > since he, as Sumedha, met the Buddha Dipankara. How did he tame his > mind during this long time? He tamed with daana, siila, samaadhi, > pa~n~naa and ten paramis. #104494 From: han tun Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (4) hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: It is striking when comparing the Pali. Without Pali the meaning would be lost. I like the last part about the mind being well tamed. Nina. Op 18-jan-2010, om 8:37 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: Dhaniya said he has lived with his wife for a long time and she was charming and pleasing to him. Buddha said His mind has long been nurtured, well tamed. How long? For four asankhyeyyas (aeons) and one hundred-thousand world-cycles since he, as Sumedha, met the Buddha Dipankara. How did he tame his mind during this long time? He tamed with daana, siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa and ten paramis. -------------------- Han: Once again, I thank you very much, Nina, for your kind feed-back. Respectfully, Han #104495 From: Vince Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:20 pm Subject: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: The highest degree of pa~n~na and of sati of the Bodhisatta who > attained omniscience. so I understand not omniscience but the same insight able to arise in any Dhamma follower. In that Sutta, the Buddha have found the way to nibbana. By following it, later he attained nibbana and the cease of fermentations. "Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications" So not ominiscience yet. Not the "sabba" or "sahajanetta" words appears in the Sutta. What appears is Sati, nama and rupa: "nāmarūpe kho sati viññānam hoti, nāmarūpapaccayā viññānan’ti" as you know Pali, sure you can check there is not omniscience neither it is something only in the reach of Buddhas. > Illumination, in Pali obhasa. It is said, the illumination of his > omniscience, in the 'Setting in Motion of the Wheel of Dhamma' which > uses the same wording. well, so I understand not omniscience yet. According the Sutta, when the insight to Truth arose in Him, he followed that way to the cease. Later, (and here very different of rest of beings) in only that direct journey he was able to attain Buddhahood and put an end to all the fermentations and to become a Tathagata. It was then when omniscience arose. (omniscience; Sabba or sahajanetta = "the all seing", "the whole seeing", it is a quality of Tathagatha. Not related when he discovered D.O.) > He directly realized the Dependent Origination and also the > conditions leading to its cessation. From the cessation of ignorance... > When there is pa~n~naa it is always accompanied by sati and other > sobhana cetasikas. yes, it seems Sati is present in the D.O and not the contrary thing. Btw, I read Panna is not always in company of sobhana but also ekkaggata cetasikas, I remember the Therigata history of Mahanama Thera, who unable to prevent the rising of evil thoughts, he was ready for suicide and then the insight arises and became an arahant. Maybe then he was free of the slavery of trying to control the endless objects. Contemplation of the relation of dependence in the arising of consciousness and nama&rupa it's a door for that; in that Sutta it was the core of the Buddha's insight. best wishes, Vince. #104496 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ptaus1 Hi Chuck, > C: On your two questions: > > 1. If "a" is true; then, "b" is false. pt: Yes, and likewise if "b" is true, then "a" is false. So, I'm hoping that finding either one of those two statements explicitly in the tipitaka would enable us to dismiss the other. > C: 2. On your above statement: > > "Ideally, it would be really great if we could find a quote from the Tipitaka that explicitly says..." > > > Well, to me your message #104452 contains the answer as you quote the Abhidhamma Katthavathu and its commentary: > > > "From the commentary. - Space is of three modes: as confined or delimited, as abstracted from object, as empty or inane. > > Of these the first is conditioned; > > the other two are mere abstract ideas. > > But some, like the Uttarapathakas and Mahimsasakas, hold that the two latter modes also, inasmuch as [being mental functions] they are not conditioned, must therefore be unconditioned." pt: Not sure if you caught what I wrote to KenO just below that quote, or perhaps I haven't explained it properly there - according to the commentary, the second definition of space "as abstracted from the object" in the quote refers only to space-kasina (a concept), not to space as a reality (paramattha dhamma). So, the katthavathu seems to be only refuting that space-kasina (as a conceptual base of first formless jhana) is unconditioned, and not the issue of whether the space element is un/conditioned reality. At least that's how it seems to me at the moment. > C: 3. Is not the Milinda Panha attributed to Nagasena? > > And, is not this Nagasena the same Nagarjuna who created a revolution in Buddhism with his "The Madhyamaka Philosophy" and many Buddhist scholars consider him the founder, if not one of the founders, of Mahayana Buddism? pt: Yes, Milinda Panha is attributed to Nagasena. According to wikipedia, Nagarjuna and Nagasena are two different people - Nagasena lived about 300 years before Nagarjuna. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagasena http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarjuna Best wishes pt #104497 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ptaus1 Hi KenO, > KO: Some of them has the wrong view they perceived space is Nibbana. I read it somewhere where it was mentioned that some ascetics view the jhanas attain at the rupa and arupa jhanas as Nibbana. Some take the 1st jhanas as Nibbana others take the neither perception nor non perception as Nibbana. pt: Thanks, it makes sense now why it was important to refute such views. > KO: You are learning faster than I when I first understand Abhidhamma, it takes time and patience. pt: If I'm learning anything, it's largely thanks to being able to talk to you, Sarah, Nina and others here. Thanks again. Best wishes pt #104498 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >S: We read the same texts, but we have a different understanding of them in this regard. Atta is the opposite of anatta. When there is belief in atta, it is attanuditthi. Attasa~n~naa perceives an atta, a 'thing' in the khandha. KO: Atta, opposite of Anatta is not a about thing, it is perceiving self or a being. We must not forget "I am" in conceit and "mine" in lobha in sensual pleasure even though "myself" (wrong view) is eradicated in 1st stage of enlightmenet, Atta definition of opposite of anatta in this context is too narrow. Furthermore, you have yet show me the textual support. >... >S: Often there is the taking of the hardness or visible object for a >thing', such as a computer, without any idea at all of 'my' or 'me'. This is attanuditthi, not sakkaya ditthi. KO: as explain above >... >S: No (!), it's about taking the reality for a 'thing' and at such a moment, there is no understanding of the dhamma as anatta and therefore an impermanent element. KO: Taking impermanent as permament is miccha ditthi. This is very clear in the suttas and in the Abhidhamma texts. There is nothing wrong with a thing like computer, the wrong is the craving or wrong view that arise from oneself. That is is "mine", that is the sakkayaditthi. When we think feeling, we would think we own it or there is self in feelings. Sakkaydithi is perceiving a self in the aggregates, hence there is possession in the citta that thinks of a computer object. >S: Most of the time just with attachment as the quotes you gave from the Atth. showed -like when lost in lobha whilst watching a show, no thought about reality or existence or any views at all.>.. >S: Lobha and moha - again like when we're lost in the movie (i.e. most of the day)... KO: As long as one understand this image in the mirror as self that is wrong view, not lobha as it is. But lobha with micca ditthi. > >OK, more in KK .....you can argue with the Senior Dinosaur:-)) KO: I got a feeling I know what her answers going to be :-) :-) :-) Cheers Ken O #104499 From: "daung46" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:15 pm Subject: What is the relationship between 1. Sankhara & Sensation 2. Sensation & Anatta? daung46 Hi, I tried to understand the nature of Sensation related to Sankhara and Ti-Lakkhana. I am having trouble understanding the observation of Anatta (Anicca and Dukkha are understandable). Can anyone explain the relationship between (1) Sankhara and Sensation (2) Sensation and Anatta? Thanks, David #104501 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah When attasanna perceive an atta, it is not sanna that think it is atta, it is ditthi with lobha that thinks it is atta. Sanna function is only percieve or remember this thing associated with atta but not view it as atta. It is the function of ditthi to view and not sanna. Sanna could only be attasana by the arisen of lobha with ditthi which are the roots conditioning plus the other paccaya. My computer - sanna perceive this computer and remember as "mine". But it is ditthi that thinks there is "mine" and not sanna. It is sanna that help to make a wholeness of thing but it is ditthi that places "self" in wholeness of thing and not sanna itself. It is sanna that note or recognize it as mine but it is ditthi that know or see it as mine. I understand your explanation on the attanudtthi and sakkayaditthi or atta sanna or sukkha sanna. IMHO, again taking a thing on a computer is not attanuditthi (as it is a doctrine of self), it is miccha ditthi. I got a feeling I am going to dicuss this with you also. Cheers, ha ha ha :-) Cheers Ken O > >#104498> #104502 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:52 pm Subject: Re: a relevent question dhammasaro Good friends all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dhammasaro" wrote: > > > In a message dated 2/11/2008 7:55:57 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > > reverendaggacitto@ writes: > > > > Hi everybody! > > Recently i thought i would try the socratic method, and ask a few > > relevent questions. i started out by asking wether there was > something > > in the Pali Canon where Ven.Gotama declares " i teach > neither "self" > > nor "noself". After a response i then asked that if we are > > neither "self" nor "noself" then how do we exist? The Answer? > > That such Questions are "irelevent"! i was told that what IS > relevent > > is the 4N.T the 8 fold noble path etc. > > The first fold of the 8 fold noble path is ...Right understanding! > > How are we to acheve liberation if we do not know the nature of > what > > it is that seeks liberation? > > When questions become "uncomfortable" for some, they become... > > "irelevent". > > i was a wood finisher for many years before i became a Buddhist > monk. > > i had to be taught wood technology as an apprentice, which taught > > me the importance of understanding the nature of the existance of > > wood as someone who works with it. > > > > i therefore certainly do NOT concider such a question "irelevent". > > > > HOW ARE WE TO ACHEVE LIBERATION IF WE DO NOT KNOW THE NATURE OF > WHAT > > IT IS THAT SEEKS LIBERATION? > > > > May the Buddhas, Deva and Angels bless ALL of you! > > bhikkhu / reverend aggacitto > > .................................................................. > > Bhante Aggacitto, > > May this dhamma-vinaya student provide a differing opinion? > > In SN LVI.31 [The Simsapa Leaves] sutta, I understand the historic > Buddha only taught 4 things. In the referenced sutta, he further > stated: > > "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is > the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your > duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to > the cessation of stress.'" > > [above from Bhante Thanissaro's translation] > > Imho, this teaching states what is important: the four things and > contemplation (meditation). > > Hence, dwelling on a self or a non-self is not that important! That > knowledge (wisdom?) will come about after meditation and the removal > of the ten fetters. > > Perhaps, I err terribly. If so, please provide suttas correcting my > terrible error. > > yours in the dhamma-vinaya, > > Chuck > C: Discussion? #104503 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:13 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 16. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Third Fifty, Chapter 5, 152, Is there a Method?), that the Buddha spoke to the monks about the method to realize through direct experience the end of dukkha: Herein, monks, a monk, seeing visible object with the eye, either recognizes within him the existence of lust, malice and illusion, thus: I have lust, malice and illusion, or recognizes the non- existence of these qualities within him, thus: I have not lust, malice and illusion. Now as to that recognition of their existence or non-existence within him, are these conditions, I ask, to be understood by belief, or inclination, or hearsay, or argument as to method, or reflection on reasons, or delight in speculation? Surely not, lord. Are not these states to be understood by seeing them with the eye of wisdom? Surely, lord. Then, monks, this is the method by following which, apart from belief a monk could affirm insight thus: Ended is birth, lived is the righteous life, done is the task, for life in these conditions there is no hereafter. We then read that the same is said with regard to the experiences through the doorways of the ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. The development of understanding of all that is real, also of ones defilements, is the way leading to the eradication of defilements, to the end of rebirth. This is the end of dukkha. ***** Nina. #104504 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:03 am Subject: Re: What is the relationship between 1. Sankhara & Sensation 2. Sensation & Anat szmicio Dear David, sankhara or sankhara khandha, this is the same. sankhara means activity or reaction, and sankhara khandha the group of reactions. all sankharas included in sankhara khandha are the qualities that react, that is not you who reacts, that's why it's called anatta. anatta is one of ti-lakkhana(3 characteristics of realities), next to dukkha and anicca. anatta means that something is empty, not Self and out of control and that means that all realities that happens now has no agent that is doing this or that. This is just the characteristic of anatta and we cannot say anything about this,unless we can only experience this characteristic in life. This is so important to be with characteristic. (and I cannot get it, cause I am so forgetful during the day.) Like the Nina wrote today: and vedana is sensation, this is the feeling, the reality that can feel. It experiences its object and 'taste' it. It enjoys its object. vedana is nama and this is not the conventional feeling. so vedanas and sankharas are different. You can call them sensations and emotions/reactions. They are all included in different khandhas, and all are anatta, anicca and dukkha, Not yours, not lasting, and full of dukkha. Those are some examples from daily life: vedana is the feeling and it can feel its object. For example the painful bodily experience. This feeling is anatta(not yours,out of control) because you cannot change this feeling for different feeling. When there is pain you cannot make it to be pleasant feeling. so that's why it's anatta,out of control. and the same with sankharas. Like dosa that is aversion is sankhara of anger. When there is aversion you cannot change it for something else, for compassion(karuna). So that's why it's anatta, not yours, empty and out of control. Anatta-lakkhana sutta,Thanissaro Bhikkhu: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.than.html Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "daung46" wrote: > > Hi, > > I tried to understand the nature of Sensation related to Sankhara and Ti-Lakkhana. > > I am having trouble understanding the observation of Anatta (Anicca and Dukkha are understandable). > > Can anyone explain the relationship between (1) Sankhara and Sensation (2) Sensation and Anatta? > > Thanks, > > David > #104505 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 jonoabb Hi Howard (104489) > > Please explain the anusota sutta. > > =============== > > Would you mind giving a reference for the sutta, please? Thanks. > -------------------------------------------------- > That sutta is AN 4.5, and I presume the part that Alex considers > relevant to the conversation you two are having about "properly directed effort" > is the following: > "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case > where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil > deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, > even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that > is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the > flow." > ================================= Many thanks. Very helpful. It would be even more helpful if you could explain why Alex might see this as supporting the notion of directed effort rather than of effort as a mere mental factor, so that I can understand his point!! Thanks in advance (if you feel so inclined). Jon #104506 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the relationship between 1. Sankhara & Sensation 2. Sensation & Anat nilovg Dear Lukas, Just appreciating your post to David. So good you quoted the Anatta- lakkhana sutta. We cannot be reminded enough. Nina. Op 19-jan-2010, om 13:03 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > sankhara or sankhara khandha, this is the same. > sankhara means activity or reaction, and sankhara khandha the group > of reactions. all sankharas included in sankhara khandha are the > qualities that react, that is not you who reacts, that's why it's > called anatta. > anatta is one of ti-lakkhana(3 characteristics of realities), next > to dukkha and anicca. > anatta means that something is empty, not Self and out of control > and that means that all realities that happens now has no agent > that is doing this or that. #104507 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 19-jan-2010, om 8:40 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Sanna could only be attasana by the arisen of lobha with ditthi > which are the roots conditioning plus the other paccaya. ------- N: what you say is quite true, but we often see the mentioning of attasa~n~naa, and why is that? Sa~n~naa plays such an important part in our life; it is remembering with wrong view. We remember: that is Lodewijk, and he exists. Perversion of sa~n~naa, sa~n~naa vipallaasa. But right understanding can change such an outlook, there can gradually be anattaa sa~n~naa. ------- Nina. #104508 From: Lukas Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti szmicio Dear Alex, At the moment of right understanding there is right understanding. If it is right, then it is supported by right concentration, which is supported by right virtue. Without developing the 1st floor, you can't really develop the 3rd one. The whole structure may fall down and crumble. This can be seen in some awful statements about "no killer, no killed, no knife". Is there right understanding that denies morality? Also: How can there be right understanding if it is impotent and cannot deal with the 5 hindrances and enter Jhana? L: If you take Visudhimagga, at the begining you can read how Dhamma can works on different people. There is listed that Dhamma sometimes is manifested according to dhammas of vipassana and sometimes according to siilas and sometimes according to jhanas.Different moments, different people, different dhammas. No need to think like the right understanding first, cause in reality everything can be first. Thats how Dhamma work. A good Vish. transl. is on www.dhammastudy.com go advanced section. Best wishes Lukas #104509 From: Lukas Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the relationship between 1. Sankhara szmicio Dear Nina That's nice to hear that. It's very important to spend some time a day with the Buddha words. But sometimes condition dont allow us. I was wondering, if I can make a list of my questions to Acharn? Maybe you can discuss more on sacca, kicca and kata nana? I think sacca nana is something that develops very slowly. Best wishes Lukas >Just appreciating your post to David. So good you quoted the Anatta- >lakkhana sutta. We cannot be reminded enough. #104510 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three rounds.1 nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 19-jan-2010, om 16:08 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > It's very important to spend some time a day with the Buddha words. > But sometimes condition dont allow us. > I was wondering, if I can make a list of my questions to Acharn? -------- N: That would be lovely. Can you send questions to dsg when you have time? it is useful for all. --------- > L:Maybe you can discuss more on sacca, kicca and kata nana? > I think sacca nana is something that develops very slowly. -------- N: Yes, extremely slowly, but this should not discourage us in the least. Each moment of even a little understanding is precious. Without sacca ~naa.na there cannot be kicca ~naa.na. I can quote parts of the study I made on the Pali list of the Dhammacakka pavattanasutta and its commentary. quote: In the sutta we see the three rounds or phases: sacca ~naa.na.m: this is the noble truth of suffering, clear and direct understanding of all dhammas in daily life that are dukkha. The five khandhas, all conditioned realities that are impermanent, are dukkha. This is pariyatti, but pariyatti is not theory, it pertains to the dhamma that appears at the present moment. Kicca ~naa.na.m: 'Now this noble truth of suffering ought to be fully understood'. Understanding the task (kicca), the development of direct understanding of the characteristics of all dhammas as they appear one at a time through the senses and the mind-door. This is satipa.t.thaana, and this is the way dhammas will be known as impermanent and dukkha and non-self. Kata ~naa.na.m: Now this noble truth of suffering has been fully understood. This refers to the direct realisation, pa.tivedha, of the truth that is reached when understanding of realities has been developed. Summary of the commentary to the : Three rounds, tipariva.t.ta.m, this refers to the three rounds reckoned as understanding of the truth, sacca~naa.na, understanding of the task, kicca~naa.na, and understanding of what has been accomplished, kata~naa.na. As to the words here, this is the noble truth of dukkha, this is the origin of dukkha , understanding thus of the four truths as they really are is called sacca~naa.na.m. --------------- Pali commentary text: Tipariva.t.tanti ~naa.nakicca~naa.nakata~naa.nasa`nkhaataana.m ti.n.na.m pariva.t.taana.m vasena tipariva.t.ta.m. Ettha hi "ida.m dukkha.m ariyasacca.m, ida.m dukkhasamudaya"nti eva.m catuusu saccesu yathaabhuuta.m ~naa.na.m sacca~naa.na.m naama. --------- Nina. #104511 From: Ken O Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three rounds.1 ashkenn2k Dear Nina Many thanks for the explanation on the three terms. Have you written a book on latency as I saw you writting email on it. I would like to download a copy of it . Cheers Ken O > -------- > N: Yes, extremely slowly, but this should not discourage us in the > least. Each moment of even a little understanding is precious. > Without sacca ~naa.na there cannot be kicca ~naa.na. > > I can quote parts of the study I made on the Pali list of the > Dhammacakka pavattanasutta and its commentary. > quote: > In the sutta we see the three rounds or phases: > sacca ~naa.na.m: ‘this is the noble truth of suffering’, clear and > direct understanding of all dhammas in daily life that are dukkha. > The five khandhas, all conditioned realities that are impermanent, > are dukkha. > This is pariyatti, but pariyatti is not theory, it pertains to the > dhamma that appears at the present moment. > > Kicca ~naa.na.m: 'Now this noble truth of suffering ought to be fully > understood'. > Understanding the task (kicca), the development of direct > understanding of the characteristics of all dhammas as they appear > one at a time through the senses and the mind-door. This is > satipa.t.thaana, and this is the way dhammas will be known as > impermanent and dukkha and non-self. > Kata ~naa.na.m: ‘ Now this noble truth of suffering has been fully > understood’. > This refers to the direct realisation, pa.tivedha, of the truth that > is reached when understanding of realities has been developed. > > Summary of the commentary to the : Three rounds, tipariva.t.ta.m, > this refers to the three rounds reckoned as understanding of the > truth, sacca~naa.na, understanding of the task, kicca~naa.na, and > understanding of what has been accomplished, kata~naa.na. > As to the words here, ‘this is the noble truth of dukkha, this is the > origin of dukkha’ , > understanding thus of the four truths as they really are is called > sacca~naa.na.m. > --------------- > Pali commentary text: Tipariva.t.tanti > ~naa.nakicca~naa.nakata~naa.nasa`nkhaataana.m ti.n.na.m > pariva.t.taana.m vasena tipariva.t.ta.m. Ettha hi "ida.m dukkha.m > ariyasacca.m, ida.m dukkhasamudaya"nti eva.m catuusu saccesu > yathaabhuuta.m ~naa.na.m sacca~naa.na.m naama. > --------- > Nina. > > #104512 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/19/2010 8:56:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Many thanks. Very helpful. It would be even more helpful if you could explain why Alex might see this as supporting the notion of directed effort rather than of effort as a mere mental factor, so that I can understand his point!! Thanks in advance (if you feel so inclined). Jon =============================== Well, if you don't see evidence of intentional, powerfully vigorous effort in this, then I guess that's the difference between the King's English and Yankee patois! ;-) With metta, Howard P. S. Intentional, powerfully vigoorous effort is still just "a mere mental factor." What else would it be? Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104513 From: Ken O Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the relationship between 1. Sankhara ashkenn2k Dear Lukas >>That's nice to hear that. It's very important to spend some time a day with the Buddha words. But sometimes condition dont allow us. KO: Sorry no disrespect, it is not conditions don't allow us. It is we do not understand conditions when it arise. Even in a busy day, there are always conditions to understand reality. >I think sacca nana is something that develops very slowly. KO: One citta at a time by AS is a true marvel, she reminds us that one citta is the natural order of dhammas describe in the texts. All existence is just on that one citta, one moment. We are so used to a self, future, etc. Understand it, then one will not think about whether understanding develops very slowly or not, or about the future. Because future is also one citta at a time. A bit unrealistic for layman, but if you could understand as it arise, it is a very enlightening statement. Next rebirth is also just one citta away. That is why the parami for determination for bodhisatta is so strong because it is base on this understanding, one citta at a time and not base on lives or kalpas of development. Concept of self will slowly diminish because it is one citta, when one hear abusive words, there arise anger. It is one citta of anger at a time and one realise there is no self that is angry which we are so used to it, It is just aversion cetasika and citta. Where is there I that is angry? Cheers Ken O #104514 From: Ken O Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:12 am Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 13 ashkenn2k Dear all Q. : After one has paid respect to the Buddha by chanting texts one may wish to sit and concentrate on a meditation subject. How can one do that with wise attention, so that there is no attachment nor aversion with regard to the meditation subject? S. : When there is right mindfulness, sammå-sati, of the eightfold Path there truly is wise attention. It is not necessary to sit and concentrate on a meditation subject. When someone believes that he should sit and concentrate with the purpose of having sati, he has the wrong understanding that there is a self who could make sati arise at a fixed time. However, sammå-sati does not have to wait until one has paid respect by chanting texts. Who is paying respect to the Buddha? If someone does not know that the answer is, nåma and rúpa, he takes the realities at that moment for self. He has an idea of, “I am paying respect”, he clings to an idea of self who chants texts. Sammå-sati can arise and be aware of any reality which appears when we are paying respect or chanting texts, or at other moments, no matter which posture we assume to be continued Ken O #104515 From: Ken O Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:16 am Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 2 No 4 ashkenn2k Dear all Question: Which object is experienced while we are dreaming? Everybody except an arahat is sure to dream. When we have woken up we say that we in our dream saw a relative who has passed away already. Do we, while we are dreaming, see a concept or a paramattha dhamma? If we do not consider this we will not know the truth. It seems as if we can really see in our dreams. However, if we ask someone what he sees in his dream, he will answer that he sees people, relatives and friends, that he sees different beings. Thus, when we dream we see concepts. At such moments the eye-door process cittas do not arise since we are asleep. However, cittas arising in the mind-door process are thinking, they “see” beings and people. When we are dreaming we think of concepts which are conceived on account of what we formerly saw, heard, or experienced through the other senses. Also, when we read about different subjects in the newspaper and see pictures we only think of concepts. Then we don’t know the characteristics of paramattha dhammas (realities) which appear, we don’t know the difference between concepts and paramattha dhammas. When we read or perform our tasks in daily life, there is seeing of what appears through the eyes, but we pay attention only to concepts and keep on thinking of them. Concepts are conceived on account of what was heard. A small child often hears sounds but it does not know words yet, it does not understand conventional language. It sees, hears, smells, tastes, experiences tangible object, it experiences pain, it is angry, it has like and dislike, and it cries. However, it does not know words with which it can explain its feelings, it cannot speak yet until it has become older. Can anybody remember all that has happened from the moment he was born? Seeing, hearing, and other sense-cognitions arose but we could not use words to express ourselves since we did not understand yet the meaning of the different words used in speech. That is why the memory of the events of early childhood fades away. When we grow up we know the meaning of the different sounds which form up words in current speech which are used to express ourselves. We take in more and more impressions through eyes and ears and combine these experiences, and thus many kinds of events of our lives can be remembered. The world of conventional truth expands and there is no end to its development. When one reads a story one also wants to see a moving picture of it and hear the corresponding sounds. We should realize to what extent the world of conventional truth hides realities, paramattha dhammas. We should consider what are concepts, not paramattha dhammas, when we, for example, watch television, when we watch a play and look at people talking. It seems that the people who play in a film in television are real people but the story and the people who play in it are only concepts. The paramattha dhammas that appear fall away very rapidly and then they are succeeded by other realities. When we know that there is a particular person the object of the citta is a concept. The characteristics of paramattha dhammas are hidden because of ignorance, avijjå, which does not know the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts, paññattis. Therefore one is not able to realize the realities which appear through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind-door as not a being, a person, or self. If we study citta, cetasika (mental factors), and rúpa in more and more detail the intellectual understanding of the Dhamma will develop. This understanding is accumulated and thus conditions are developed for the arising of sati (mindfulness) which can be directly aware of the characteristics of paramattha dhammas. Thus there can be more detachment from the outward appearance (nimitta) and the details (anuvyañjana) which are forms of paññatti. to be continued Ken O #104516 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:09 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Jon, you wrote: `I agree with these remarks about Ven Nyanatiloka, and I regard his Buddhist Dictionary as a very useful source. However, it is not totally error-free. D: well, Jon, what is totally error free .. ? As you said a very useful source for one's studies , good for contemplation and fine quotes in a discussion.. the author may have had just that in mind .. (D: =============== > Being in consensus with this resource (and assuming no major errors) I wonder why the discussion about the samadhi part of the Noble Path > seems to remain fruitless ..) > =============== Perhaps you could remind us what he says on this point. Thanks. D: you are wellcome .. ;-) starting with the first of the samadhi sequence : Right Effort SACCA: .... .: "What now, o monks, is right effort? If the disciple rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, demeritorious things that have not yet arisen; ... if he rouses his will to overcome the evil, demeritorious things that have already arisen; ... if he rouses his will to produce meritorious things that have not yet arisen; ... if he rouses his will to maintain the meritorious things that have already arisen and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development; he thus makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives (s. padhana). quoted from MN 44 Wouldn't you agree that the development of mindfulness/awareness and basing on that of insight/panna needs right effort as explained by the sixth step? with Metta Dieter #104517 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 nilovg Hi Howard, Alex, Op 19-jan-2010, om 17:09 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > P. S. Intentional, powerfully vigoorous effort is still just "a > mere mental > factor." What else would it be? ------ N:Well said. We know this on the pariyatti level, but that is not enough. Very difficult not to have an idea of 'I am doing this'. Wait, Sangiitisutta and commentary, coming up soon. This is all about endeavour and the conditions for it, strong, unshakable confidence, good health, etc.. It may interest both of you. ***** Nina. #104518 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three rounds.1 nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 19-jan-2010, om 16:52 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Have you written a book on latency as I saw you writting email on > it. I would like to download a copy of it . ------ N: I translated part of a Thai study on the latent tendencies, anusayas, and as I am posting this I also correct and revise it. Then, the greater part that is still coming, I haven't translated yet. I have to do it slowly, as time permits. The Thai follows the commentary on the Yamaka, word by word and adds explanations. I can send you the part I have finisehd, or shall I wait until more is completed? appreciating your interest, Nina. #104519 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the relationship between 1. Sankhara nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 19-jan-2010, om 17:08 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > We are so used to a self, future, etc. Understand it, then one > will not think about whether understanding develops very slowly or > not, or about the future. Because future is also one citta at a > time. A bit unrealistic for layman, but if you could understand as > it arise, it is a very enlightening statement. Next rebirth is > also just one citta away. That is why the parami for determination > for bodhisatta is so strong because it is base on this > understanding, one citta at a time and not base on lives or kalpas > of development. ------- N: This is a good reminder. Because sometimes I get lost by thinking on the many future lives in samsara still to come. It is not me, but the series of cittas arising in a next life are conditioned by cittas arising now. I know this is all thinking. Nina. #104520 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 upasaka_howard Thanks, Nina. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/19/2010 2:54:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Alex, Op 19-jan-2010, om 17:09 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > P. S. Intentional, powerfully vigoorous effort is still just "a > mere mental > factor." What else would it be? ------ N:Well said. We know this on the pariyatti level, but that is not enough. Very difficult not to have an idea of 'I am doing this'. Wait, Sangiitisutta and commentary, coming up soon. This is all about endeavour and the conditions for it, strong, unshakable confidence, good health, etc.. It may interest both of you. ***** Nina #104521 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the relationship between 1. Sankhara szmicio Dear Ken 0, > >I think sacca nana is something that develops very slowly. > > KO: One citta at a time by AS is a true marvel, she reminds us that one citta is the natural order of dhammas describe in the texts. L: I think the same. This is so helpful to hear one citta at one time. And the characteristic of citta now. I appreciate such reminders very much. So if you can quote SoPD, this would be always helpful to me. KO: All existence is just on that one citta, one moment. We are so used to a self, future, etc. Understand it, then one will not think about whether understanding develops very slowly or not, or about the future. Because future is also one citta at a time. A bit unrealistic for layman, but if you could understand as it arise, it is a very enlightening statement. Next rebirth is also just one citta away. That is why the parami for determination for bodhisatta is so strong because it is base on this understanding, one citta at a time and not base on lives or kalpas of development. Concept of self will slowly diminish because it is one citta, when one hear abusive words, there arise anger. It is one citta of anger at a time and one realise there is no self that is angry which we are so used to > it, It is just aversion cetasika and citta. Where is there I that is angry? L: I feel also the same. No I that is angry. just different moments of reactions. Different sankharas at work ;> very busy to react in this or that way. metta or anger. Best wishes Lukas #104522 From: "daung46" Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:50 am Subject: Re: How to link Sankhara to Sensation to Anatta daung46 Dear Lukas and Nina, Sadu, Sadu, Sadu. Thanks to both of you Lukas and Nina for the explanation. My next question is how to link Sankhara to Sensation to Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta when meditate? Again, awaiting for your response. With Metta, David --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear David, > sankhara or sankhara khandha, this is the same. > sankhara means activity or reaction, and sankhara khandha the group of reactions. all sankharas included in sankhara khandha are the qualities that react, that is not you who reacts, that's why it's called anatta. <...> #104523 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Three rounds.1 szmicio Dear Nina, I like your explanations. Can you say more on 3 rounds, 12 permutations? there is not only understanding of 4 Noble Truths there is also abandonment(pahana) of them. That's nice to hear that sacca ~nana is not only intelectual understanding. It goes with liberation. Best wishes Lukas P.s I will send my question to DSG and if anybody feels also like asking his questions let also send them. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > Op 19-jan-2010, om 16:08 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > > It's very important to spend some time a day with the Buddha words. > > But sometimes condition dont allow us. > > I was wondering, if I can make a list of my questions to Acharn? > -------- > N: That would be lovely. Can you send questions to dsg when you have > time? it is useful for all. > --------- > > L:Maybe you can discuss more on sacca, kicca and kata nana? > > > I think sacca nana is something that develops very slowly. > -------- > N: Yes, extremely slowly, but this should not discourage us in the > least. Each moment of even a little understanding is precious. > Without sacca ~naa.na there cannot be kicca ~naa.na. > > I can quote parts of the study I made on the Pali list of the > Dhammacakka pavattanasutta and its commentary. > quote: > In the sutta we see the three rounds or phases: > sacca ~naa.na.m: `this is the noble truth of suffering', clear and > direct understanding of all dhammas in daily life that are dukkha. > The five khandhas, all conditioned realities that are impermanent, > are dukkha. > This is pariyatti, but pariyatti is not theory, it pertains to the > dhamma that appears at the present moment. > > Kicca ~naa.na.m: 'Now this noble truth of suffering ought to be fully > understood'. > Understanding the task (kicca), the development of direct > understanding of the characteristics of all dhammas as they appear > one at a time through the senses and the mind-door. This is > satipa.t.thaana, and this is the way dhammas will be known as > impermanent and dukkha and non-self. > Kata ~naa.na.m: ` Now this noble truth of suffering has been fully > understood'. > This refers to the direct realisation, pa.tivedha, of the truth that > is reached when understanding of realities has been developed. > > Summary of the commentary to the : Three rounds, tipariva.t.ta.m, > this refers to the three rounds reckoned as understanding of the > truth, sacca~naa.na, understanding of the task, kicca~naa.na, and > understanding of what has been accomplished, kata~naa.na. > As to the words here, `this is the noble truth of dukkha, this is the > origin of dukkha' , > understanding thus of the four truths as they really are is called > sacca~naa.na.m. > --------------- > Pali commentary text: Tipariva.t.tanti > ~naa.nakicca~naa.nakata~naa.nasa`nkhaataana.m ti.n.na.m > pariva.t.taana.m vasena tipariva.t.ta.m. Ettha hi "ida.m dukkha.m > ariyasacca.m, ida.m dukkhasamudaya"nti eva.m catuusu saccesu > yathaabhuuta.m ~naa.na.m sacca~naa.na.m naama. > --------- > Nina. > > #104524 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:27 pm Subject: Without any Ego... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Ego is the Greatest Self-Deception! Even when old and sick, the wise Elder Khemaka spoke these wise words & thereby made himself and 60 listening Bhikkhu friends awakened Arahats! "Friends, I do not speak of 'I Am' as inside form, nor do I speak of 'I Am' as outside or apart from form! I do not speak of 'I Am' as within feeling, nor do I speak of 'I Am' as outside or apart from feeling! I do not speak of 'I Am' as within experience, nor do I speak of 'my self' as outside or apart from experience! I do not speak of 'my ego' as being within mental construction, nor do I speak of 'my self' as outside or apart from mental construction! I do not speak of 'my ego' as within consciousness, nor do I speak of 'my self, ego or identity' as outside or apart from consciousness! Friends, although the concept 'I Am' has not yet been eliminated fully by me regarding these five clusters of clinging, still I do neither regard any among them, nor within them as 'This entity is what I am... This is my ego!' Friends, even though a Noble Disciple has broken the five minor mental chains, eliminated the five lower fetters, still, regarding these 5 clusters of clinging, there remains in him a residual conceit of conceiving 'I Am', there lingers a subtle desire for possessing a core ego: 'I Am' and there hang on a latent tendency to construing or contriving 'I Am', that has not yet been uprooted! Sometime later while he dwells contemplating the rise and fall of the 5 clusters of clinging: 'Such is form, such is the originating cause and ceasing of form. Such is feeling, such is the originating cause & ceasing of feeling. Such is perception, the originating cause and ceasing of perception. Such is mental construction, such is the originating cause and ceasing of mental construction. Such is consciousness, such is the initiating cause of consciousness and such is it's ceasing! As he dwells thus seriously contemplating the rise & fall in these five clusters of clinging, any residual conceit 'I Am', any remnant desire to conceive and deposit 'My Ego', and any latent tendency to construe a fixed and stable identity as 'My Self', that had not yet been uprooted, becomes uprooted & eliminated completely... While the elder Khemaka spoke these words, he and 60 Bhikkhus awakened! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya III [130-1] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-089.html As book: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 The causes produce arising when present, while ceasing when absent: Food, ignorance, lust for form, and kamma causes the body and form. Contact, ignorance, lust for feeling, and kamma causes all feeling. Contact, ignorance, lust for perception, and kamma causes all perception. Contact, ignorance, lust for construction, and kamma causes construction. Name- &-Form, ignorance, desire to be and remain conscious, and kamma causes consciousness to emerge, when present, and cease when absent. No ego, self, soul or identity can ever be found neither within, nor outside these ever changing and incessantly arising and ceasing transient states... <...> Have a nice, noble and egoless day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104525 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Parajika in the Vinaya Pitaka. Was: Angry Monks sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, --- On Sat, 9/1/10, charlest wrote: >S: [Thank you for posting your very nice pic with your son in the DSG photo album] > >C: Warm thanks for commenting. Did you see the pic before of my son and I as temporary monks at Wat Monkoltepmunee, PA, USA last year? ... S: Yes, I did, thank you. I'm interested to hear more about your family's interest. How old is your son now and how did he find his experience as a temporary monk? Which aspects of the Teachings does he find helpful? .... >I flew by myself to Thailand to attend my wife's sister's cremation as a monk. Then, disrobed at Wat Pak Nam just before the annual "rains retreat" began. .... S: How have you found the adjustment, the disrobing? Do you think there is any difference in practice now as a lay man again? Metta Sarah ========== #104526 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Compendium of philosophy - Anuruddha sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, --- On Sat, 9/1/10, charlest wrote: >Pali Text Society Translation Series No. 2... >Management: Do you accept this work? ... S: If it is related to the DSG summary description (as this work clearly is) and if the Guidelines are being followed, it doesn't matter what the "Management" think about a text. All: any questions or issues relating to "Management" or "Moderator" issues, off-list only, thx. This includes any replies to this note. Metta Sarah (& Jon) ========= #104527 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Fri, 15/1/10, truth_aerator wrote: >So are you saying that there is gradual development till magga, magga which itself happens instanteneously (after gradual development) ? .... S: Yes. Remember the magga citta lasts for just a split-instant like any other citta. In this sense, each citta happens "instantaneously" when the conditions are in place - like the balancing of the ayatanas on the needle-point. ... >Then what about "Phala" ? According to the comy or Abh, it happens immeadetely after magga. But in the suttas, there is gradual development for phala after magga was developed. .... S: The phala cittas (two or three) immediately succeed the magga citta in the same javana process. As discussed, this is the one occasion when the fruit, the vipaka immediately follows the kamma, due to the strength of that kamma. In the suttas, when it refers to the gradual development for the fruit, it is referring to the gradual path before enlightenment which results in such fruit. The more we understand of the Abhidhamma, the less seeming conflict there is between any parts of the Tipitaka, I find. We have confidence that whatever is spoken of is referring to momentary dhammas, not belonging to anyone and beyond anyone's will to cause to arise. Thx for the good qus. Metta Sarah ======= #104528 From: han tun Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:11 pm Subject: Dhaniya Sutta (5) hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah, and others, I am presenting Snp 1.2 Dhaniya Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and the explanations by Sayadaw U Nyanissara. It is about the dialogue between Dhaniya, a wealthy cattle owner, and the Buddha. Dhaniya lived at the time when the Buddha was staying at Saavatthi. It was the monsoon season, just before the onset of rain. He had built strong shelters for himself, his family and for the cattle on the bank of the River Mahi. The Buddha, however, knew that this family was in danger of being overwhelmed by the flood, and also knew that Dhaniya was ready to take in His teachings and attain spiritual attainment. So by His supernormal powers, He appeared outside of Dhaniya's shelter, at the tree top level. While Dhaniya was rejoicing in the comfort and security, he uttered verses depicting his accomplishments and how he was prepared for the rain, and challenging the rain god to go ahead and rain. The Buddha also uttered verses that play on words of Dhaniya's verses with different meaning. There are a total of 17 verses. I have presented six verses. I will now continue with the rest. -------------------- 7. Dhaniya: "I support myself on my earnings. My sons live in harmony, free from disease. I hear no evil about them at all: So if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." 7. Attavetana bhatohamasmi (iti dhaniyo gopo) Puttaa ca me samaaniyaa arogaa, Tesa.m na su.naami ki~nci papa.m Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. ---------- 8. The Buddha: "I'm in no one's employ, [Note 6] I wander the whole world on the reward [of my Awakening]. No need for earnings is to be found: So if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." [Note 6 by Thanissaro Bhikkhu] According to the Commentary, the Buddha is not in anyone else's employ nor even in his own employ, i.e., he is not in the employ of craving. 8. Naaha.m bhatakosmi kassaci (iti bhagav) Nibbi.t.thena caraami sabbaloke, Attho bhatiyaa na vijjati Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. ------------------------------ Han: Dhaniya said: Attavetana bhatohamasmi (I support myself on my earnings) Buddha said: Naaha.m bhatakosmi kassaci (I'm in no one's employ) The Commentary says that although Dhaniya said he supported himself on his earnings (meaning he had no master to serve or he was not a slave to anyone), as an ordinary person who had still ta.nhaa (craving) he was the slave of the cravings. He had to toil day and night to satisfy his cravings. Whereas, the Buddha has no such craving and so the Buddha really has no master to serve. Sayadaw U Nyanissara added that the Buddha has had only one thing to work for, that was Sammaasambodhi ~naana. Here, Sayadaw explained more about "bodhi ~naana". He said the Buddhists usually say after doing any merit "bodhi ~naanassa paccayo hotu" (let it be the support or the cause for the attainment of bodhi ~naana). He said there are three kinds of bodhi ~naana. 1. Sammaasambodhi ~naana. For the Buddhas, who know the Four Noble Truths without any teacher, and who can let his followers also know about the Four Noble Truths. 2. Paccekabodhi ~naana. For the Pacceka Buddhas. 3. Saavakabodhi ~naana. For the Arahant disciples. Sayadaw said there are also three kinds of saavakas. 1. Agga-saavaka. Two Chief Disciples, Venerable Saariputta and Mahaa Moggallaana. 2. Mahaa-saavaka. Eighty outstanding disciples, 40 each under Venerable Saariputta and Mahaa Moggallaana 3. Pakati-saavaka. Other Arahants. Once the Buddha attained Sammaasambodhi ~naana as a reward of his Supreme Enlightenment, he wandered the three worlds (kaama loka, ruupa loka, aruupa loka) with this Sammaasambodhi ~naana (Nibbi.t.thena caraami sabbaloke), and there was no need for any earnings (Attho bhatiyaa na vijjati). nibbi.t.tha (pp.) [nis+vi.t.tha, of nibbisati] gained, earned [here, as a reward]. caraami: move about, wander. attha: [m.] need; want. bhati: wages, earnings. vijjati: [vid + ya] exists; to be found. na + attho + bhatiyaa na + vijjati = no + need + for earnings + is to be found. Sayadaw said Sammaasambodhi ~naana is also called Sabba~n~nuta ~naana, the Omniscience ("all-knowing" or the one who knows everything that is there to know). To be continued. With metta, Han #104529 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] happiness. sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Lodewijk), Apologies for not replying before to this note and the one below which you sent off-list. It's really sweet of you both to think of her and she really appreciates this. --- On Mon, 18/1/10, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >I am sure you have a happy time with your mother. There is lots of dhamma in the Newspaper. Lodewijk gave me a quotation from the Herald Tribune (Nicholas D. Kristof): 'It's difficult to be truly selfish because generosity feels so good.' I would like to know what your mother thinks of this. Have a happy time, .... S: I showed her the comment, but it didn't ring any particular bells for either of us. She said that she's sometimes generous, sometimes selfish, but doesn't pay much attention to how it feels. Actually, as you know, she has very considerate accumulations. While she stays with us, she's always thinking of us, trying not to cause any inconvenience and thinking of our needs. Of course, she also knows what she enjoys - going off to pretty, deserted beaches (at this time of year) for daily swims (either with us or on her own)! My friends can't believe this as the water's very cold now. On the subject of happiness, she wished to tell you that she enjoys walking up and down on the beach, appreciating how fortunate she is to be able to do this, enjoying the setting and thanking God or Buddha! There's been some anxiety because we heard that there had been some damage to her cottage in England after she left from the snow and a burst tank or pipe. She doesn't know how extensive it is, but says she knows not to dwell on it because this would be self-pity. .... Now the earlier off-list note: >Kate's Odyssey.Tuesday, 12 January, 2010 19:24From: "Nina van Gorkom" >I am sure you have now a happy time with your mother. We would like to hear details about her long journey and the friends she made. Perhaps you could answer on line if you include dhamma moments so as to make it suitable for the list? ... S: There was a typo in my earlier note - I had meant to say she'd had to get 3 different slow trains with here case, then get across London, long delays at Heathrow (about 12hrs with just two cups of tea and a small snack). However, she made lots of friends along the way - she takes an interest in anyone she meets and on the flight as well. Her chilblains on her fingers have now been forgotten and she calls this her "health-farm holiday" because she has no alcohol, cigarettes or proper dinners when she's with us - just lots of exercise and Dhamma:-) We don't try to discuss topics she has no interest in, but Jon and I read letters whilst we travel to the beaches and she sometimes listens and sometimes rests. In the evenings we have fun doing Times crosswords together - all a lot of fun. I always learn from her examples of considerateness, kindness and youthful approach too. She's sorry she won't be seeing you both in February - perhaps next year? Or perhaps you could have a walking holiday in Sussex? Metta Sarah ===== #104530 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:01 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 8 The eightfold Path The development of the eightfold Path leads to the goal of the Buddhas teachings: the end of dukkha, suffering. As I explained in chapter 2, the Buddha taught the four noble Truths: the Truth of dukkha, of the cause of dukkha, which is craving, of the ceasing of dukkha, which is nibbna, and of the Path leading to the ceasing of dukkha. We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, The Great Chapter, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, chapter II, 1) that the Buddha, while he was dwelling at Isipatana, in the Deerpark, spoke to the company of five monks: Monks, these two extremes should not be followed by one who has gone forth as a wanderer. What two? Devotion to the pleasures of sense, a low practice of villagers, a practice unworthy, unprofitable, the way of the world (on the one hand); and (on the other) devotion to self-mortification, which is painful, unworthy and unprofitable. By avoiding these two extremes the Tathgata has gained knowledge of that middle path which gives vision, which gives knowledge, which causes calm, special knowledge, enlightenment, Nibbna. And what, monks, is that middle path which gives visionNibbna? Verily, it is this noble eightfold way, namely: Right view, right thinking, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration When there is direct awareness and right understanding of any reality which appears in daily life, there is at that moment no devotion to sense pleasures nor self-mortification. One is on the middle way, and that is the eightfold Path. When direct understanding of realities has been developed stage by stage, the wrong view of self can be eradicated. Then it is clearly understood that what is taken for a person or self are in reality merely mental phenomena and physical phenomena which arise and then fall away immediately. When the realities which arise because of their own conditions have been understood as they are, as impermanent, dukkha and non-self, enlightenment, can be attained. At that moment nibbna is experienced. ******* Nina. #104531 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three rounds.1 nilovg Dear Lukas, Vince and all, Yes vince, if you have any for Kh Sujin, you could send them to dsg. For example on Abhidhamma and practice. We can begin and answer, waiting for Kh Sujin to give her comment. It is always useful. Nina. Op 20-jan-2010, om 4:34 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > I will send my question to DSG and if anybody feels also like > asking his questions let also send them. #104532 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O & all, #104120 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > I make some errors on attanudhitti and sakkayaditthi. AS said that attanudhitti is different from sakkayaditthi and sakkayaditthi is part of attanudhitti and attanudhitti is opposite of the view of anatta. IMHO, AS is also incorrect on attanudhitti. Attanudhitti is the same as sakkayaditthi. .... Qus: 1. Why do you think the two different terms are used? 2. When the Buddha refers to the rupas taken for one's body as opposed to rupas taken for external objects, forgetting about the terms used, do you see any difference in the kinds of concept or view? Of course, hardness is just hardness,whether of the body or of the computer, but when there's the idea that the hardness is a computer, is there any idea of "one's body"? I believe it's not just a matter of what the texts say, but of the understanding of the realities inc. the wrong views that arise during the day without concern about the labels for these. Anyway, as I said, I'll look forward to listening to your live dinosaur discussions on this and other points soon:-) Metta Sarah ====== #104533 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is the relationship between 1. Sankhara & Sensation 2. Sensation & Anatta? sarahprocter... Hi David, I appreciated your good questions below and the responses they inspired! I believe you must be new to DSG, so am wondering if we can encourage you to introduce yourself a little. For example, where do you live, how do you come to have such a keen interest in the Dhamma? Thanks for joining and posting your qus and response. Metta Sarah --- On Tue, 19/1/10, daung46 wrote: >I tried to understand the nature of Sensation related to Sankhara and Ti-Lakkhana. I am having trouble understanding the observation of Anatta (Anicca and Dukkha are understandable) . Can anyone explain the relationship between (1) Sankhara and Sensation (2) Sensation and Anatta? #104534 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the relationship between 1. Sankhara sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Wed, 20/1/10, Lukas wrote: >L: I feel also the same. No I that is angry. just different moments of reactions. Different sankharas at work ;> very busy to react in this or that way. metta or anger. ... S: Just a quick comment to say how happy I am to see you posting again. I wrote to Nina a little while ago to say I was concerned at not having heard from you for so long. Lovely to see your keen and excellent reminders again! A very happy, healthy and wise New Year, Lukas! Metta Sarah ========= #104535 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:54 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (317, 16) and commentary, part 1. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 16. DN 33.2.1(16) 'Five factors of endeavour: Here, a monk (a) has faith, trusting in the enlightenment of the Tathaagata: "Thus this Blessed Lord is an Arahant, a fully-enlightened Buddha perfected in knowledge and conduct, a Well-Farer, Knower of the worlds, unequalled Trainer of men to be tamed, Teacher of gods and humans, a Buddha, a Blessed Lord." (b) is in good health, suffers little distress or sickness, having a good digestion that is neither too cool nor too hot but of a middling temperature suitable for exertion, (c) is not fraudulent or deceitful, showing himself as he really is to his teacher or to the wise among his companions in the holy life, (d) keeps his energy constantly stirred up for abandoning unwholesome states and arousing wholesome states, and is steadfast, firm in advancing and persisting in wholesome states, (e) is a man of wisdom, endowed with wisdom concerning rising and cessation, with the Ariyan penetration that leads to the complete destruction of suffering. --------- N: The co. elaborates on saddhaa, confidence and classifies it as fourfold. 1. Saddha of arriving (aagamana) and this refers to the bodhisatta who aspires to become an omniscient Buddha. The subco: conditioned by this aspiration, beginning with this aspiration, he arrived (aagataa). N: Sumedha aspired with great confidence at the feet of the Buddha Diipankara to become a sammaasambuddha. He began to develop all the conditions necessary to become a sammaasambuddha, including the perfections. --------- 2. Saddhaa of attainment (adhigamana saddhaa), and that is the penetration of the truth (pa.tivedha) by the ariyan disciples. 3. Saddhaa which is trusting okappana). It is the unshakable confidence of the ariyans in the Triple Gem. subco: This confidence is unshakable, not to be overcome by its opposite (diffidence). It arises all the time (niccalabhaavena). It leads to decisiveness (adhimuccaa). 4. Confidence that is purity, pasaada saddhaa. N: The term pasaada can mean confidence and purity. When there is confidence, there is purity of citta. ------- The commentary states that in this sutta text trusting confidence (okappana) in the Triple Gem is referred to. As to the sutta text, the word bodhi, awakening, this refers to the knowledge of the fourth Path, of the arahat. It is said that to the extent confidence is a power, someone is succesfull in endeavour. ------- N: As understanding of realities develops, also confidence in the Buddhas teachings grows and will become unshakable. Because of unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem one has energy and courage to persevere in developing the eightfold Path so that eventually ignorance and all defilements can be eradicated. (to be continued) ****** Nina. #104536 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:58 am Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 jonoabb Hi Alex (104492) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ""And who is the individual who goes with the flow? There is the case where an `individual indulges in sensual passions and does evil deeds. This is called the individual who goes with the flow." > > "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html > > Can you please explain what you have said about viriya in the light of that sutta? > =============== First it is necessary to understand what the sutta is about. In the BB translation of this sutta (NDB at page 79) there is the following footnote to the paragraph describing the individual who goes against the flow: "According to AA [the commentary], this refers to stream-enterers and once-returners (particularly to those whose path of progress is difficult) and to virtuous persons who are still unliberated worldlings (puthujjana).". Another footnote explains that the individual who goes with the flow is a reference to the person who violates the Five Precepts (i.e., the likes of you and me ;-)). The other 2 classes of person being described in the sutta (making 4 types in all) are the anagami and the arahant. The references to pain, sorrow, crying, etc are not an exhortation to undertake directed effort, but are given to show the steadfastness of the stream enterer who has eradicated all wrong view and doubt about the path, and who is thus unwavering regardless of the difficulties being faced. Jon #104537 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 jonoabb Hi Howard (104512) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Well, if you don't see evidence of intentional, powerfully vigorous > effort in this, then I guess that's the difference between the King's English > and Yankee patois! ;-) > =============== But then I also suffer from not being a speaker of the King's English ;-)) Thanks for the comments. I don't see the sutta as being a teaching about effort. Sure, there's a reference to crying, pain, etc, but this is a descriptive reference intended to show the high stage of development of the class of person being spoken of. The purpose of the sutta is to describe the 4 types of persons: ignorant worldling, stream enterer, anagami and arahant. The reference in question pertains only to one of the 4 classes, the stream-enterer. > P. S. Intentional, powerfully vigoorous effort is still just "a mere mental > factor." What else would it be? > =============== Yes, mere mental factors, but of what variety? As I see it, the deliberate effort to have kusala instead of currently occurring akusala cannot be the same mental factors as for actually arising kusala. The idea to have kusala, when the current consciousness is akusala, seems to me to involve discursive thinking, and that discursive thinking must, if not itself kusala, be akusala. Jon #104538 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three rounds. no 2. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 20-jan-2010, om 4:34 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Can you say more on 3 rounds, 12 permutations? > there is not only understanding of 4 Noble Truths there is also > abandonment(pahana) of them. > > That's nice to hear that sacca ~nana is not only intelectual > understanding. It goes with liberation. -------- N: Sacca ~naa.na and also the other two rounds pertain to the present reality. Thus, more and more understanding of what seeing is, what attachment to what is seen is. There cannot be abandonment without right understanding. The second noble truth, craving, has to be abandoned, but first there has to be more understanding of its characteristic and when it arises: < We can find out that attachment arises countless times, more often than we ever thought. From morning until night we are seeking things for ourselves, also at this moment. Do we not want comfort, freedom from pain? We are hungry and are seeking food. All the time we want things for ourselves. This seeking and trying to get things keep us in the cycle of birth and death. We cling to the idea of self: when we are seeing, hearing or thinking there may be an idea of self who does so. When we realise this more in our life we can also acquire some idea of what freedom from such craving could be, the third noble Truth.> Twelve modes of the three rounds of realizing the four noble Truths: As we have seen, there are three rounds: understanding the truths, sacca ~naa.na.m; understanding the task (kicca), kicca ~naa.na.m, the development of direct understanding of the characteristics of all dhammas; the direct realisation, pa.tivedha, of the truth that is reached when understanding of realities has been developed, kata ~naa.na.m. These three rounds pertain to each one of the four noble truths, and then there are twelve modes of the three rounds. There are three rounds as to the understanding of the first noble truth, dukkha. There are three rounds as to the abandonment of the origin of dukkha, which is clinging. There are three rounds as to the realisation of the ceasing of dukkha, that is nibbaana. There are three rounds as to the development of the way leading to the cessation of dukkha, that is the eightfold Path. In the following text we read as to the origin of dukkha: understanding what the origin is, understanding of the task of abandonment of it, understanding of the accomplishment of the abandonment of it. Sutta text: 'This is the noble truth of the origin of suffering': thus, monks, in regard to teachings not heard by me before, vision, insight, wisdom, knowledge and illumination arose. 'Now this noble truth of the origin of suffering ought to be abandoned': thus, monks, in regard to teachings not heard by me before, vision, insight, wisdom, knowledge and illumination arose. 'Now this noble truth of the origin of suffering has been abandoned': thus, monks, in regard to teachings not heard by me before, vision, insight, wisdom, knowledge and illumination arose. ---------------- Nina. #104539 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to link Sankhara to Sensation to Anatta nilovg Dear David, Op 19-jan-2010, om 18:50 heeft daung46 het volgende geschreven: > My next question is how to link Sankhara to Sensation to Anicca, > Dukkha and Anatta when meditate? ------- N: Sankhaarakkhanda and vedanaakkhandha, feeling, always arise together. They mutually condition one another. The five khandhas are the naama and ruupa arising and falling away in our daily life. Sankhaarakkhandha are all cetasikas (mental factors accompanying citta or vi~n~naa.nakkhandha) except the cetasikas that are vedanaa and sa~n~naa, which each are a separate khandha. There is strong clinging to feeling (sensation is not such a good translation) and sa~n~naa, remembrance. These two cetasikas arise with each citta. As to sankhaarakkhandha, this includes sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas, akusala cetasikas and cetasikas that are neither sobhana nor akusala. Thus, they do not arise all at the same time. When there is clinging, sobhana cetasikas do not arise. When there is right understanding of anattaa, sobhana cetasikas arise. Feeling is different each time, since it is conditioned by the accompanying citta and cetasikas. When happy feeling accompanies clinging it is different from happy feeling accompanying right understanding. In the latter case it is conditioned by the accompanying sobhana cetasikas, including calm. When it accompanies clinging it is not calm. You ask about meditation, but it depends what you mean by it, samatha or vipassanaa. Only through insight the understanding of the three characteristics can be developed and this is a long process. First there has to be intellectual understanding about the nature of naama and ruupa. Nina. #104540 From: Ken O Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. ashkenn2k Dear?Sarah >1. Why do you think the two different terms are used? KO:? it is very common to use two different names in pali which have the same meaning :-). >2. When the Buddha refers to the rupas taken for one's body as opposed to rupas taken for external objects, forgetting about the terms used, do you see any difference in the kinds of concept or view? Of course, hardness is just hardness,whether of the body or of the computer, but when there's the idea that the hardness is a computer, is there any idea of "one's body"? KO:? Rupas for external object could be view as sakkayaditthi as one thought this hardness of the external objects belongs to oneself.?? It is not?about?one or other?body or internal object or?an external object, it is about a self view on a body or a hardness in this case.???Self view and not hardness is the significance here.?? ? >I believe it's not just a matter of what the texts say, but of the understanding of the realities inc. the wrong views that arise during the day without concern about the labels for these. KO:???Like what you said wrong views have no concern about anything as it is not self.? True understanding of realities is the gist, however terms must be understood clearly so one know when that characteristic arise.?? ? ? Cheers :-) Ken O #104541 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, I still have this mail not answered. I take afew points. Op 17-jan-2010, om 21:16 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: >> N:The development of insight is stage by stage. > > I don't have idea of the enormous variety of persons but on my side at > least I cannot agree about the existence of some recurrence in what > arises devoid of time and therefore non-mediatized. ------ N: You learnt things in childhood and at school thus, the past. You still remember and profit from what you learnt before. There are accumulations of kusala and of akusala, since cittas succeed one another, from moment to moment, from life to life. Evenso, there is development on and on of understanding of realities. Otherwise the Buddha's teaching would be in vain and enlightenment could never be attained. Stages of insight: see it as a development, a growing of understanding. ------- > > V: And if we say the object of > the Insight is only one then we are not talking of the same object but > of different ones, precisely because when we claim different insights > we are endowing them with different qualities conforming different > objects, not only one. And from here the need of different > paramatha-dhammas. ----- N: Different paramattha dhammas can be the object of sati and pa~n~naa, but no selection. ----------- > > V:When Sati is aware of something, it is the self who perform the > action. Sati includes the appropriation performed by the self (PTS > Sati definition: "included mindfulness, alertness, lucidity of mind, > self -- possession, conscience, self -- consciousness") ------- N: Just the use of self in conventional sense. It is a cetasika, a dhamma, not a person. How could it be a self? ------- > > V: So I understand there are not different insights neither stages of > insight. There is only the Insight into Truth, and it is the same for > sotapanna or arhant. However, it will be interpreted later as more or > less deeper in dependence of the absence of defilements (ie; > fermentations). ------ N: But the understanding of the true nature of naama and ruupa becomes clearer, in stages, even at the different stages of enlightenment. At these stages latent tendencies are eradicated, that is true. ------- > > V:What I cannot understand, it's about the need of some remanent or > roots of the fermentations which must be present in some way while > there is insight. ------ N: Latent tendencies of defilements are dormant in each citta, even in kusala citta. These do not arise with the akusala citta, they are like microbes. But they are eradicated stage by stage. Yes, the stages are in accordance withg the Tipitaka. -------- > > In this text Buddha is thinking in D.O. with terms, and later arises > the Insight. Obviously both name&form and consciousness were terms > because they were managed before the insight arises: > ...Specially because D.O. was previous to Abhidhamma. > -------- N: When the Buddha was sitting under the Bodhitree he discovered the truth of all realities and also the D.O. He was not merely thinkling about it. It was the truth not heard before. --------- > > V:Maybe you understand D.O. in different terms of what I understand > they > represents: just they are more terms. ------- N: Everybody has to find out for himself whether the D.O. are just more terms, or, whether the Abhidhamma is just more terms. D.O. is the deepest subject, so, why not go back to basics, to the beginning of the Abhidhamma? I quote from "An Introduction to the Abhidhamma". by Jill Jordan (who just passed away) and Richard Giles, from the preface: ------- I would like to ask you what you think of this passage, does it make sense to you? Nina. #104542 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all > sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > --- On Fri, 15/1/10, truth_aerator wrote: > > >So are you saying that there is gradual development till magga, magga which itself happens instanteneously (after gradual development) ? > .... > S: Yes. Remember the magga citta lasts for just a split-instant >like any other citta. In this sense, each citta happens >"instantaneously" when the conditions are in place - like the >balancing of the ayatanas on the needle-point. Of course the momentariness of a citta was not in question. > ... > >Then what about "Phala" ? According to the comy or Abh, it happens immeadetely after magga. But in the suttas, there is gradual development for phala after magga was developed. > .... > S: The phala cittas (two or three) immediately succeed the magga >citta in the same javana process. As discussed, this is the one occasion when the fruit, the vipaka immediately follows the kamma, due to the strength of that kamma. In the suttas, when it refers to the gradual development for the fruit, it is referring to the gradual path before enlightenment which results in such fruit. > The thing we were discussion is how to interpret the gradual training and being one in training for the phala stage. I can understand the gradual training for a momentary magga citta. But it is a bit more complex to explain how can one, being already on the path (magga) have a gradual training towards the phala - phala which is supposed to happen without-interruption after magga citta. As I understand, your solution is that: there is gradual training for magga or phala prior to maggaphala moment. Thank you very much for your reply, With metta, Alex #104543 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] happiness. nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you for your post about the time with your mother. I liked what she said about not dwelling on the possible damage to her cottage. She is very wise, and that was our impression when we first met her. Perhaps we see her next year, Lodewijk makes already plans, so long as we can still manage it, he said. Kindest regards to your mother and a safe journey back. The winter is also returning I heard. We did not leave home since Christmas, except for shopping with the car. Too slippery everywhere. Nina. Op 20-jan-2010, om 8:57 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > We don't try to discuss topics she has no interest in, but Jon and > I read letters whilst we travel to the beaches and she sometimes > listens and sometimes rests. In the evenings we have fun doing > Times crosswords together - all a lot of fun. I always learn from > her examples of considerateness, kindness and youthful approach too. #104544 From: Vince Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:12 pm Subject: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: >> V: And if we say the object of >> the Insight is only one then we are not talking of the same object but >> of different ones, precisely because when we claim different insights >> we are endowing them with different qualities conforming different >> objects, not only one. And from here the need of different >> paramatha-dhammas. > ----- > N: Different paramattha dhammas can be the object of sati and > pa~n~naa, but no selection. if never there was a selection then we cannot claim the knowledge of the difference, and therefore the unconditioned would be only one, not many. Different elements are named "different" because there are different conditions supporting them. What lacks of conditions also lacks of the qualities provided by the same conditions, and therefore it cannot be differentiated of what also lacks of conditions. >> V:When Sati is aware of something, it is the self who perform the >> action. Sati includes the appropriation performed by the self (PTS >> Sati definition: "included mindfulness, alertness, lucidity of mind, >> self -- possession, conscience, self -- consciousness") > ------- > N: Just the use of self in conventional sense. It is a cetasika, a > dhamma, not a person. How could it be a self? there is not another use of self except the conventional one. If there is practice, there is a self. If there is not a self, there is not practice. "Therefore, Ananda, each of you should remain with your self as an island, your self as your refuge, without anything else as a refuge. Remain with the Dhamma as an island, the Dhamma as your refuge, without anything else as a refuge. And how does a monk remain with his self as an island, his self as his refuge, without anything else as a refuge? How does he remain with the Dhamma as an island, the Dhamma as his refuge, without anything else as a refuge? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself ? ardent, alert, & mindful ? putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves ? ardent, alert, & mindful ? putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is how a monk remains with his self as an island, his self as his refuge, without anything else as a refuge, with the Dhamma as an island, the Dhamma as his refuge, without anything else as a refuge. For those who ? now or after I am gone ? remain with their self as an island, their self as their refuge, without anything else as a refuge, with the Dhamma as an island, the Dhamma as their refuge, without anything else as a refuge, they will be the highest of the monks who desire training." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.013.than.html This self is the self of practice, the conventional self. There is not another self. I understand when we practice according Abhidhamma or any other Dhamma teaching, we take refuge on our self and Dhamma. While we are practicing, there is self. > N: But the understanding of the true nature of naama and ruupa > becomes clearer, in stages, even at the different stages of > enlightenment. At these stages latent tendencies are eradicated, that > is true. "stages" is a word useful to pursue the truth but enlightenment is the end of ignorance. When we say "stages of enlightenment" it means residues of ignorance. Well, I understand there are not stages of enlightenment but really there are of ignorance and dukkha. Sotapanna realize nibbana and deathless, same of arhant. Difference remains in the subsequent eradication of ignorance. I think was Sariputta, who had attained awakening but later he did not believe that he was attained the same enlightenment of Buddha. But Buddha told him: "the same". >> V:What I cannot understand, it's about the need of some remanent or >> roots of the fermentations which must be present in some way while >> there is insight. > ------ > N: Latent tendencies of defilements are dormant in each citta, even > in kusala citta. These do not arise with the akusala citta, they are > like microbes. But they are eradicated stage by stage. Yes, the > stages are in accordance withg the Tipitaka. after writing those lines to you, I have found the answer here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.028-049.than.html#iti-044 according that Sutta, difference is in the becoming. Difference between an arhant alive and an arhant not alive, is in the becoming. An arhant alive must experience the becoming of objects thorough sense-organs despite he is not more attached to them. However, that same becoming through sense organs creates attachment in rest of the lower stages of enlightenment. So in this sense I understand there are not stages of enlightenment but of eradication of ignorance. Nibbana is the same for sotapanna and arhant. I think your explanation it's the same but using the Abhidhamma perspective. And probably it is the more detailed perspective to manage becoming. However, also I think it is not an exact reflection of the truth because are names, terms and objects. There is not an exact reflection for the understanding. > N: When the Buddha was sitting under the Bodhitree he discovered the > truth of all realities and also the D.O. He was not merely thinkling > about it. It was the truth not heard before. The Sutta shows: 1 - Buddha was thinking and asking himself for the relation of nama-rupa and consciousness. As still he was not awakened, he was managing terms and objects. 2 - later arises in him the Insight, with the knowledge of the path. 3 - later he follow this path until the eradication of dukkha. (It appears in another Sutta.) > N: Everybody has to find out for himself whether the D.O. are just > more terms, or, whether the Abhidhamma is just more terms. > D.O. is the deepest subject, so, why not go back to basics, to the > beginning of the Abhidhamma? but, Isn't truth that always the deepest is the more basics? I understand D.O. is rooted in the relation of dependence between nama&rupa and consciousness. Even if somebody realize that, still he will need Abhidhamma to eradicate ignorance because the becoming. And if somebody has not realized that, also he can use Abhidhamma to realize it. So I don't see the contradiction. > I quote from "An Introduction to the Abhidhamma". by Jill Jordan (who > just passed away) and Richard Giles, from the preface: if we made a cut in the middle part then appears an apparent but needed contradiction: > It is made clear that life exists as moments only. The past moments > have gone, they cannot be made to come back. The future has not yet > come, so it does not yet exist. The present moment is now and is > all that really exists. ----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<---- > Life is but a moment, conditioned by past moments, arising for an > instant then passing away again to be followed by the next moment's > arising. Two consecutive moments are never the same.> > I would like to ask you what you think of this passage, does it make > sense to you? yes. I understand the conciliation of both are precisely in the core of D.O: "Then the thought occurred to me, 'This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising, i.e., from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form." *SN 12.65 thousand thanks for the interchange, Vince. #104545 From: Vince Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:19 pm Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] Re: Three rounds.1 cerovzt@... Nina wrote: > Dear Lukas, Vince and all, > Yes vince, if you have any for Kh Sujin, you could send them to dsg. > For example on Abhidhamma and practice. We can begin and answer, > waiting for Kh Sujin to give her comment. It is always useful. thanks Nina, you are really very kind for this. According my last post, my question is: Can you explain the relation of dependence in the arising of nama&rupa and consciousness, and the consequences in the understanding of rest of paramattaha-dhammas? (send kind regards to Sujin from me and my woman). best wishes and have a fruitful days in BKK, Vince. #104548 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:46 pm Subject: Liberation! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: DIVINE: If one speak the truth, is not angry and gives when asked, even when one has only a little, one may win a divine future state... Dhammapada Illustration 224 Background Story 224 FINAL BLISS: The homeless sages, always restrained, in both body and behaviour, finally pass to the deathless state, where sorrow is not... Dhammapada Illustration 225 Background Story 225 ENTHUSIASM: Those who are always aware and awake; Training day and night, intent only on Nibbana, their mental fermentations gradually evaporate. Dhammapada Illustration 226 Background Story 226 Comments: When Devas have been asked what good deeds they had accomplished here on earth to cause them to be reborn in the happy world in which they live, they have given different answers. Speaking the truth, restraining anger, leaving hatred, listening to the dhamma, charitable gifts of goods and wealth, even giving small gifts of fruit and vegetables to a Bhikkhu or someone else are among the answers. Even if we are poor, and have only the most modest gift to offer to the Noble Sangha of Bhikkhus, such gifts are extremely meritorious! In order for us to never return to the world in which we are now living, we must become a faith-devote, a faith-liberated one, a body-witness, a both-ways-liberated one, a Dhamma-devotee, a vision-attainer, or a wisdom-liberated one, or finally an fully awakened Arahat ! The Buddha taught us to be ?always alert and ever aware" so that we may attain Arahatship, become liberated from all suffering while here, and thus obtain the benefits of never having to experience birth, old age, sickness, and death again! He insisted that we must train both day and night, during all activities, in order to reach the supreme, blissful, rapturous, quenched, satiated, stilled and calm state?.NIBBANA! With Metta, Jonathan Liberation! #104549 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:02 pm Subject: Inconstancy of induvidial dhamma. truth_aerator Dear Nina, Howard, all, On another board someone started to ask me certain questions. To rephrase: How can an individual dhamma arise and fall within the context of super momentarism (and without past or future existing in any way)? Arising cannot coexist with ceasing (they are two mutually exclusive properties). Ceasing cannot happen without arising, and arising cannot happen without ceasing. If a dhamma is different every moment, then what has ceased is not exactly the same as dhamma that has arisen. So if a different dhamma has ceased, what has happened to the dhamma that has arisen? With metta, Alex #104550 From: han tun Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:42 pm Subject: Dhaniya Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah, and others, I am presenting Snp 1.2 Dhaniya Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and the explanations by Sayadaw U Nyanissara. It is about the dialogue between Dhaniya, a wealthy cattle owner, and the Buddha. Dhaniya lived at the time when the Buddha was staying at Saavatthi. It was the monsoon season, just before the onset of rain. He had built strong shelters for himself, his family and for the cattle on the bank of the River Mahi. The Buddha, however, knew that this family was in danger of being overwhelmed by the flood, and also knew that Dhaniya was ready to take in His teachings and attain spiritual attainment. So by His supernormal powers, He appeared outside of Dhaniya's shelter, at the tree top level. While Dhaniya was rejoicing in the comfort and security, he uttered verses depicting his accomplishments and how he was prepared for the rain, and challenging the rain god to go ahead and rain. The Buddha also uttered verses that play on words of Dhaniya's verses with different meaning. There are a total of 17 verses. I had presented eight verses. I will now continue with the rest. -------------------- 9. Dhaniya: "There are cows, young bulls, cows in calf, & breeding cows, & a great bull, the leader of the herd: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." 9. Atthi vasaa atthi dhenupaa (iti dhaniyo gopo) Godhara.niyo pave.niyopi atthi, Usabhopi gavampatiidha atthi Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. 10. The Buddha: "There are no cows, no young bulls, no cows in calf or breeding cows, no great bull, the leader of the herd: [Note 7] so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." [Note 7 by Thanissaro Bhikkhu]. The Buddha may be speaking literally here. He has no cattle, so there is no way that a heavy rain could cause him harm, but he may also be speaking metaphorically. 10. Natthi vasaa natthi dhenupaa (iti bhagav?) Godhara.niyo pave.niyopi natthi, Usabhopi gavampatiidha natthi Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. -------------------- Han: Dhaniya was boosting that he had all kinds of cattle. Five types were mentioned in his verse. (i) vasaa = young bulls, not yet trained for work. (ii) dhenupa = suckling calves. (iii) godhara.nii = pregnant cows. (iv) pave.nii = great bulls to mate with the cows. (v) usabhopi gavampati = the leader of the herd. On the other hand, the Buddha said He has none of these cattle. This was a metaphorical phrase. Sayadaw U Nyanissara, quoting the Commentary, explained what the Buddha does not have in comparison to the type of cattle Dhaniya had. (1) The Buddha has no vasaa or young bulls that are not yet trained and yoked for work. By this, it is meant to say that the Buddha has no pariyu.t.thana-kilesa. As the young bulls are very active and giving trouble, pariyu.t..thana-kilesa is also agitating and boiling within one's mind. The Buddha has no more of it. (2) The Buddha has no dhenupa or suckling cattle. By this, it is meant to say that the Buddha has no anusaya-kilesa. The cattle which is just born and still sucking mother's milk is harmless and cannot do any harm. But it will grow one day to become a boisterous young bull. So also anusaya, while lying dormant, can, when there are conditions, become a paccaya for pariyu.t.thana-kilesa to arise. The Buddha does not have any more anusayas. (3) The Buddha has no godhara.nii or pregnant cows. By this, it is meant to say that the Buddha has no abhisa"nkhaara cetanaa. As the breeding cows give birth to more calves, both kusala cetanaa and akusala cetanaa give birth to more khandhas, i.e., more rebirths, prolonging the sa.msaara. Cetanaa is kamma, and only when the kamma ceases it is the end of the sa.msaara for the beings. The Buddha does not have these any more. (4) The Buddha has no pave.nii or great bulls to mate with the cows. By this, it is meant to say that the Buddha has no ta.nhaa (craving). Like the great bulls mating with the cows to produce calves, the ta.nhaa associates with the abhisa"nkhaara cetanaa to produce more khandhas. The Buddha does not have any more ta.nhaa. (5) The Buddha has no usabhopi gavampati (the leader of the herd). By this, it is meant to say that the Buddha has no abhisa"nkhaara vi~n~naa.na. The difference between abhisa"nkhaara cetanaa and abhisa"nkhaara vi~n~naa.na is the former is cetasika and the latter is citta. The cetasika cannot arise without the citta, and the citta is the leader. So the abhisa"nkhaara vi~n~naa.na is like the leader of the herd leading all the cattle. [Han: What is it all about the abhisa"nkhaara vi~n~naa.na and the abhisa"nkhaara cetanaa? The abhisa"nkhaara means abhi + sa"nkhaara. The abhi means very strong. Therefore abhisa"nkhaara means a very strong sa"nkhaara. What is sa"nkhaara? According to the explanation in Dependent Origination, sa"nkhaara means: (i) Pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaara representing the 13 cetanaas (volitions) present in 8 mahaa-kusala cittas and 5 ruupaavacara-kusala cittas. (ii) Apu~n~naabhisa"nkhaara representing the 12 cetanaas present in 12 akusala cittas. (iii) Anenjaabhisa"nkhaara representing the 4 cetanaas present in 4 aruupaavacara-kusala cittas. In short, sa"nkh?ra represents the 29 types of kamma associated with 17 lokiya kusala cittas and 12 akusala cittas.] The Buddha does not have the abhisa"nkhaara vi~n~naa.na and the abhisa"nkhaara cetanaa. To be continued. With metta, Han #104551 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Inconstancy of induvidial dhamma. upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Nina) - In a message dated 1/20/2010 10:12:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Nina, Howard, all, On another board someone started to ask me certain questions. To rephrase: How can an individual dhamma arise and fall within the context of super momentarism (and without past or future existing in any way)? Arising cannot coexist with ceasing (they are two mutually exclusive properties). Ceasing cannot happen without arising, and arising cannot happen without ceasing. If a dhamma is different every moment, then what has ceased is not exactly the same as dhamma that has arisen. --------------------------------------------------------------- I assume you are talking specifically about cittas (or maybe mind states) rather than dhammas in general. I suspect that Nina might say that a citta is not constantly changing, but merely arises, remains, and then ceases, and the citta that ceases is the one that arose - like one film frame after another, though the commentaries refer to the remaining phase as "changing while standing" or something like that. In any case, if change is constant, then, yes, the citta that ceases is not the citta that arose. In fact, it then becomes questionable, I believe, to consider the notion of separate cittas at all, except as a convention. Radical impermanence, by which I mean "constant change," implies the merely conventional existence of separate phenomena. ------------------------------------------------------------------ So if a different dhamma has ceased, what has happened to the dhamma that has arisen? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Here you are engaged in similar questioning to that of Nagarjuna. In fact, radical impermanence, by which I mean "constant change" implies a thoroughgoing emptiness. ------------------------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ==================================== With metta, Howard Emptiness /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #104552 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:27 pm Subject: Re: How to link Sankhara to Sensation to Anatta szmicio Dear David and Nina > Sadu, Sadu, Sadu. Thanks to both of you Lukas and Nina for the explanation. > > My next question is how to link Sankhara to Sensation to Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta when meditate? L: You reminded me on some point we rised with my Dhamma friend who was visiting me in last few days. We were sitting in restaurant and had Dhamma discussions. And later we both raised this point:"This is by meditation that we can understand?." "And what if this is only right understanding that can understand? Meditation cannot understand. Right understanding can, this is the only element that can understand. Meditation does not know anything". I like this very much. also according to vedana that is feeling or sensation. It's 5-fold or 3-fold. You can know this only like the 3-fold way(sometimes it's most common). When we classsify vedana in a 3-fold way, that is only dukkha vedana(notpleasant bodily sensation), sukkha vedana(pleasant bodily sensation), and asukkhaadukha vedana, neither pleasant-or-unplesant bodily sensation. This is always bodily sensation/feeling. But sometimes Buddha was speaking according to 5-fold classification of vedana. And the 3 bodily sensations are the same, and what's new is somanassa vedana, that is pleasant mental feeling/sensation and domanassa vedana, that is unpleasant mental feeling. For example when you feel a bodily pain or touch somethng this is bodily feeling, and after this you start to like this, then mental feeling starts to arise. Like te pain in your back is just bodily painful feeling that is vipaka, and in such moments there is no like or dislikes, but after this you start to react in pleasant or unpleasnt way(this is kamma, kammic process of reaction, the sankaras of reactions start to arise). It looks like yu react in this or taht way, but this is only sankhara that react not you. This is conditioned by moha. So there is a pain and this is vipaka, and afterwards there is mental feeling that comes with reaction. Sallatha Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html <"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person feels feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain, feelings of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. A well-instructed disciple of the noble ones also feels feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain, feelings of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. So what difference, what distinction, what distinguishing factor is there between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person?" "For us, lord, the teachings have the Blessed One as their root, their guide, & their arbitrator. It would be good if the Blessed One himself would explicate the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from the Blessed One, the monks will remember it." "In that case, monks, listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. "As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person does not discern any escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is delighting in sensual pleasure, any passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling. As he does not discern the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then any ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him. "Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it as though joined with it. This is called an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person joined with birth, aging, & death; with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is joined, I tell you, with suffering & stress. "Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental. "As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is not delighting in sensual pleasure, no passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling. As he discerns the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling, no ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him. "Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress. "This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person." The discerning person, learned, doesn't sense a (mental) feeling of pleasure or pain: This is the difference in skillfulness between the sage & the person run-of-the-mill. For a learned person who has fathomed the Dhamma, clearly seeing this world & the next, desirable things don't charm the mind, undesirable ones bring no resistance. His acceptance & rejection are scattered, gone to their end, do not exist. Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state, he discerns rightly, has gone, beyond becoming, to the Further Shore.> Best wishes Lukas #104553 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:31 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 2, nilovg Dear friends, Nibb?na is the unconditioned reality, the reality which does not arise and fall away. There are four stages of enlightenment and at these stages defilements are progressively eradicated. First the wrong view of self has to be eradicated because the other defilements cannot be eradicated so long as they are taken for ?self?. All defilements are eradicated when the fourth and last stage of enlightenment has been attained, the stage of the perfected one, the ?arahat?. He has eradicated ignorance and all forms of clinging completely, there are no more latent tendencies of defilements left. Ignorance and clinging are conditions for rebirth again and again, for being in the cycle of birth and death. When ignorance and clinging have been eradicated there will be the end of the cycle of birth and death, the end of dukkha. The development of the eightfold Path leads to the cessation of dukkha. In order to know what the eightfold Path is, the eight Path factors as enumerated in the above-quoted sutta have to be examined more closely. They are mental factors which can accompany citta. As I explained before, there is one citta arising at a time, but it is accompanied by several mental factors which each perform their own function while they assist the citta in cognizing an object. Mental factors can be akusala, kusala or neither kusala nor akusala, in accordance with the citta they accompany. When the eightfold Path is being developed, the mental factors which are the Path factors perform their own specific functions in order that the goal can be attained: the eradication of defilements. From the beginning it should be remembered that there is no self, no person, who develops the Path, but that it is citta and the accompanying mental factors which develop the Path. As we read in the sutta, the eight Path factors are the following: right understanding right thinking right speech right action right livelihood right effort right mindfulness right concentration Right understanding is the first and foremost factor of the eightfold Path. What is right understanding of the eightfold Path? There are many levels and degrees of understanding. There can be theoretical understanding of the Buddha?s teachings on mental phenomena and physical phenomena. However, the Path factor right understanding is not theoretical understanding of realities. When it is developed it is the direct understanding of the true nature of physical phenomena and mental phenomena appearing in daily life. ***** Nina. #104554 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:36 am Subject: Life szmicio Dear Nina, Ken 0, Alex,Sarah, Han and all, (Nina) I was thinking of what you said that you think of the how many futer lives you have to live. The Blessed One Buddha said: Analysis of dependent origination (Pa.ticcasamuppaadavibha"ngo) 1. Analysis according to the discourses (Suttantabhaajaniiya.m) Because of ignorance activities arise; (Avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraa) because of activities consciousness arises; (sa"nkhaarapaccayaa vi~n~naa.na.m) because of consciousness mind and matter arise; (vi~n~naa.napaccayaa naamaruupa.m) because of mind and matter six bases arise; (naamaruupapaccayaa sa.laayatana.m) because of six bases contact arise; (sa.laayatanapaccayaa phasso) because of contact feeling arises; (phassapaccayaa vedanaa) because of feeling craving arises; (vedanaapaccayaa ta.nhaa) because of craving attachment arises; (ta.nhaapaccayaa upaadaana.m) because of attachement becoming arises; (upaadaanapaccayaa bhavo) because of becoming birth arises; (bhavapaccayaa jaati) because of birth ageing-death-sorrow-lamentation-pain(physical)-mental pain-despair arise; (jaatipaccayaa jaraamara.na.m sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupaayaasaa sambhavanti) Thus is the arising of this whole mas of suffering. (Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.) I like this, no Self anywhere, just moha that condition whole mass of misery. No one who can live futer lifes. Just misery that we cannot control. If we consider this in that way in life, we have less suffering in our lifes. Best wishes Lukas #104555 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:37 am Subject: Three rounds, no 3. nilovg Dear Lukas and friends, The origin of dukkha, craving, has to be abandoned, but this can only be accomplished by pa~n~naa that knows realities as they are. At the end of each passage pa~n~naa has been emphasized: ? in regard to teachings not heard by me before, vision, insight, wisdom, knowledge and illumination arose.? We read in the commentary: The knowledge that should understand the task to be done, namely, what must be comprehended and what must be abandoned with regard to these truths, that is called understanding of the task (kicca~naa.na.m) . The knowledge that understands the nature of each task, namely, the fact of having comprehended and having abandoned (with regard to these truths), is called the knowledge of what has been done (kata ~naa.na.m). ----------- Pali: Tesuyeva "pari~n~neyya.m pahaatabba"nti eva.m kattabbakiccajaanana~naa.na.m kicca~naa.na.m naama. "Pari~n~naata.m pahiina"nti eva.m tassa tassa kiccassa katabhaavajaanana~naa.na.m kata~naa.na.m naama. -------- N: The origin of dukkha is lobha, clinging. When it arises it should be known as it is, otherwise it cannot be eradicated. Lobha is attached to all objects, to things, to persons, to self. At the moment of clinging there is ignorance of the fact that whatever arises has to go immediately, so that there is nothing left. Only by understanding the true nature of dhammas will there be less clinging. Without firm understanding of what clinging is and to what objects it clings there cannot be understanding of the task, namely, that lobha has to be abandoned. Through the practice, the development of understanding of all dhammas that appear, there will be abandonment stage by stage. The sotaapanna has abandoned clinging to the wrong view of self, and only the arahat has abandoned all kinds of clinging. ******* Nina. #104556 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Life nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 21-jan-2010, om 9:36 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > (Nina) I was thinking of what you said that you think of the how > many futer lives you have to live. ------- N: I appreciate what you said: Vince will like this, he is interested at the D.O. But it should be noted: no self from the beginning. ******* Nina. #104557 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three rounds. no 2. szmicio Dear Nina, > Twelve modes of the three rounds of realizing the four noble Truths: > > As we have seen, there are three rounds: understanding the truths, > sacca ~naa.na.m; understanding the task (kicca), kicca ~naa.na.m, the > development of direct understanding of the characteristics of all > dhammas; the direct realisation, pa.tivedha, of the truth that is > reached when understanding of realities has been developed, kata > ~naa.na.m. > These three rounds pertain to each one of the four noble truths, and > then there are twelve modes of the three rounds. There are three > rounds as to the understanding of the first noble truth, dukkha. > There are three rounds as to the abandonment of the origin of dukkha, > which is clinging. There are three rounds as to the realisation of > the ceasing of dukkha, that is nibbaana. There are three rounds as to > the development of the way leading to the cessation of dukkha, that > is the eightfold Path. L: Yes,that was what i was confused about. the understanding, abandonment, realisation and development of 3 different degrees. Best wishes Lukas #104558 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Life szmicio Dear Nina and Vince, > N: I appreciate what you said: moha that condition whole mass of misery. No one who can live futer > lifes. Just misery that we cannot control.> > > Vince will like this, he is interested at the D.O. But it should be > noted: no self from the beginning. L: Yes, just moha. I really do consider this like that in life. I feel it can lead gradually to development of 4 Noble Truths. sacca ~nana of the realities. I've preperd some more analysis of paticcasamupada with my remarks. I will share it later. Bye Lukas #104559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (6) nilovg Dear Han, thank you for no 5 and 6. This no 6 is very revealing. Without the co we would not have thought of the pariyu.t.thana-kilesa, the anusaya- kilesa and abhisa"nkhaara. It is really very good to go in depth. Otherwise we just read the sutta and do not get much from it, wondering about the use of the similes. Nina. Op 21-jan-2010, om 5:42 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > the Buddha has no pariyu.t.thana-kilesa. As the young bulls are > very active and giving trouble, pariyu.t..thana-kilesa is also > agitating and boiling within one's mind. The Buddha has no more of it. > > (2) The Buddha has no dhenupa or suckling cattle. By this, it is > meant to say that the Buddha has no anusaya-kilesa. #104560 From: han tun Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind comments. Nina: thank you for no 5 and 6. This no 6 is very revealing. Without the co we would not have thought of the pariyu.t.thana- kilesa, the anusaya-kilesa and abhisa"nkhaara. It is really very good to go in depth. Otherwise we just read the sutta and do not get much from it, wondering about the use of the similes. --------------- Han: I also like the similes. The role of ta.nhaa and sa"nkhaara in conditioning the re-births and prolonging the sa.msaara is very striking. It also reminds me of the ta.nhaa carpenter in Dhammapada Verse 154. Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained. (translated by Daw Mya Tin) Verse 154. Gahakaaraka di.t.thosi! Puna geha.m na kaahasi; Sabbaa te phaasukaa bhaggaa Gahakuu.ta.m visa"nkhata.m; Visa"nkhaaragata.m citta.m Ta.nhaana.m khayamajjhagaa. gahakaaraka + di.t.thosi = house-builder + seen puna + geha.m + na + kaahasi = again + house + not + build sabbaa + phaasukaa + bhaggaa = all + rafters + broken gahakuu.ta.m + visa"nkhata.m = roof-top (ridge-pole) +destroyed visa"nkhaara + gata.m citta.m = having destroyed + mind has reached ta.nhaana.m khayamajjhagaa = end of craving. Respectfully, Han #104561 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Life ashkenn2k Dear Lukas "And what if this is only right understanding that can understand? Meditation cannot understand. Right understanding can, this is the only element that can understand. Meditation does not know anything". I like this very much. KO:? I like this very much,?too :-).?? ? >I like this, no Self anywhere, just moha that condition whole mass of misery. No one who can live futer lifes. Just misery that we cannot control. >If we consider this in that way in life, we have less suffering in our lifes. KO:? Moha is also just a dhamma, just a moment, just with a citta .??? Understand?moha is a joy, it builds confidence in the dhamma, it builds faith in the teachings.?? It builds patient and courage :-).? Cheers Ken O #104562 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:06 am Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] Re: Three rounds.1 nilovg Dear Vince, Op 21-jan-2010, om 1:19 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > my question is: > > > Can you explain the relation of dependence in the arising of nama&rupa > and consciousness, and the consequences in the understanding of rest > of paramattaha-dhammas? ------- N: Could you clarify: rest > of paramattaha-dhammas? Do you mean: all the paramattha dhammas in general, or the other factors mentioned in the D.O.? I think Lukas' list may help you. ------- Nina. > #104563 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (6) ashkenn2k Dear Han thanks it is the explanation from Sayadaw U Nyanissara, quoting the Commentary was quite refreshing. I felt the signifance of this particular sutta could only be shone brightly with the explanation from the commentary. >10. The Buddha: >"There are no cows, no young bulls, >no cows in calf or breeding cows, >no great bull, the leader of the herd: [Note 7] >so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." Extracts from the comemntary in the email you wrote <> <> <> Shows clearly there is no self in the rounds of rebirth, it is due to latency, due to craving, due to kamma. It is just conditons of the dhammas coming together to nurture our rounds of rebirth in samasara. Again many thanks. I appreciate the time you took to write it. I enjoy reading it and particularly likes the commentary explanation on this sutta. It is a good dhamma gift for us here in the list Cheers Ken O >------------ -------- > >9. Dhaniya: >"There are cows, young bulls, >cows in calf, & breeding cows, >& a great bull, the leader of the herd: >so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." > >9. Atthi vasaa atthi dhenupaa (iti dhaniyo gopo) >Godhara.niyo pave.niyopi atthi, >Usabhopi gavampatiidha atthi >Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. > >10. The Buddha: >"There are no cows, no young bulls, >no cows in calf or breeding cows, >no great bull, the leader of the herd: [Note 7] >so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." > >[Note 7 by Thanissaro Bhikkhu]. The Buddha may be speaking literally here. He has no cattle, so there is no way that a heavy rain could cause him harm, but he may also be speaking metaphorically. > >10. Natthi vasaa natthi dhenupaa (iti bhagav) >Godhara.niyo pave.niyopi natthi, >Usabhopi gavampatiidha natthi >Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. > >------------ -------- > >Han: Dhaniya was boosting that he had all kinds of cattle. >Five types were mentioned in his verse. >(i) vasaa = young bulls, not yet trained for work. >(ii) dhenupa = suckling calves. >(iii) godhara.nii = pregnant cows. >(iv) pave.nii = great bulls to mate with the cows. >(v) usabhopi gavampati = the leader of the herd. > >On the other hand, the Buddha said He has none of these cattle. This was a metaphorical phrase. Sayadaw U Nyanissara, quoting the Commentary, explained what the Buddha does not have in comparison to the type of cattle Dhaniya had. > >(1) The Buddha has no vasaa or young bulls that are not yet trained and yoked for work. By this, it is meant to say that the Buddha has no pariyu.t.thana- kilesa. As the young bulls are very active and giving trouble, pariyu.t..thana- kilesa is also agitating and boiling within one's mind. The Buddha has no more of it. > >(2) The Buddha has no dhenupa or suckling cattle. By this, it is meant to say that the Buddha has no anusaya-kilesa. The cattle which is just born and still sucking mother's milk is harmless and cannot do any harm. But it will grow one day to become a boisterous young bull. So also anusaya, while lying dormant, can, when there are conditions, become a paccaya for pariyu.t.thana- kilesa to arise. The Buddha does not have any more anusayas. > >(3) The Buddha has no godhara.nii or pregnant cows. By this, it is meant to say that the Buddha has no abhisa"nkhaara cetanaa. As the breeding cows give birth to more calves, both kusala cetanaa and akusala cetanaa give birth to more khandhas, i.e., more rebirths, prolonging the sa.msaara. Cetanaa is kamma, and only when the kamma ceases it is the end of the sa.msaara for the beings. The Buddha does not have these any more. > >(4) The Buddha has no pave.nii or great bulls to mate with the cows. By this, it is meant to say that the Buddha has no ta.nhaa (craving). Like the great bulls mating with the cows to produce calves, the ta.nhaa associates with the abhisa"nkhaara cetanaa to produce more khandhas. The Buddha does not have any more ta.nhaa. > >(5) The Buddha has no usabhopi gavampati (the leader of the herd). By this, it is meant to say that the Buddha has no abhisa"nkhaara vi~n~naa.na. The difference between abhisa"nkhaara cetanaa and abhisa"nkhaara vi~n~naa.na is the former is cetasika and the latter is citta. The cetasika cannot arise without the citta, and the citta is the leader. So the abhisa"nkhaara vi~n~naa.na is like the leader of the herd leading all the cattle. > >[Han: What is it all about the abhisa"nkhaara vi~n~naa.na and the abhisa"nkhaara cetanaa? The abhisa"nkhaara means abhi + sa"nkhaara. The abhi means very strong. Therefore abhisa"nkhaara means a very strong sa"nkhaara. What is sa"nkhaara? According to the explanation in Dependent Origination, sa"nkhaara means: >(i) Pu~n~naabhisa" nkhaara representing the 13 cetanaas (volitions) present in 8 mahaa-kusala cittas and 5 ruupaavacara- kusala cittas. >(ii) Apu~n~naabhisa" nkhaara representing the 12 cetanaas present in 12 akusala cittas. >(iii) Anenjaabhisa" nkhaara representing the 4 cetanaas present in 4 aruupaavacara- kusala cittas. >In short, sa"nkhra represents the 29 types of kamma associated with 17 lokiya kusala cittas and 12 akusala cittas.] > >The Buddha does not have the abhisa"nkhaara vi~n~naa.na and the abhisa"nkhaara cetanaa. > >To be continued. >With metta, >Han > > > #104564 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:07 am Subject: Inconstancy of paramattha/sammuti dhamma. truth_aerator Hi Howard, Nina, all >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Nina) - > --------------------------------------------------------------- >I assume you are talking specifically about cittas (or maybe mind > states) rather than dhammas in general. Actually all that arises. It includes citta, cetasika, rupa, concepts, etc. >I suspect that Nina might say that a citta is not constantly >changing, but merely arises, remains, and then ceases, and the citta that ceases is the one that arose - like one film frame > after another, though the commentaries refer to the remaining phase as > "changing while standing" or something like that. In any case, if change is constant, then, yes, the citta that ceases is not the citta that arose. In fact, it then becomes questionable, I believe, >>> So what you are proposing is that the paradox how can arisen citta (or lets say rupa) cease is that the change is not continuous but abrupt/discontinious. Right? >H: to consider the notion of separate cittas at all, except as a >convention. Well me may say that just like making a whole (synthesis) out of parts is an activity of the mind, so is analysis. Radical impermanence, by which I > mean "constant change," implies the merely conventional existence >of separate phenomena. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >So if a different dhamma has ceased, what has happened to the >dhamma that has arisen? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >H: Here you are engaged in similar questioning to that of Nagarjuna. Yes. The person on another board, being common Buddhist (as opposed to Theravada only board) was quoting Nagarjuna. Maybe the denial is of continuous change. Then yes, an object that has 0 duration cannot both arise and cease. > In fact, radical impermanence, by which I mean "constant change" >implies a thoroughgoing emptiness. > With metta, > Howard Can you please precisely define what you mean by emptiness? Non-existence? Then how do you explain the empirical fact of experience (even if it is non-conceptual)? Experience or what makes it possible does exist, otherwise there would be no experience and nothing could read or write this post. With metta, Alex #104565 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inconstancy of paramattha/sammuti dhamma. upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 1/21/2010 1:07:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, Nina, all >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Nina) - > --------------------------------------------------------------- >I assume you are talking specifically about cittas (or maybe mind > states) rather than dhammas in general. Actually all that arises. It includes citta, cetasika, rupa, concepts, etc. >I suspect that Nina might say that a citta is not constantly >changing, but merely arises, remains, and then ceases, and the citta that ceases is the one that arose - like one film frame > after another, though the commentaries refer to the remaining phase as > "changing while standing" or something like that. In any case, if change is constant, then, yes, the citta that ceases is not the citta that arose. In fact, it then becomes questionable, I believe, >>> So what you are proposing is that the paradox how can arisen citta (or lets say rupa) cease is that the change is not continuous but abrupt/discontinious. Right? ---------------------------------------------------------------- I believe that change is continual. However, the discrete view would, I suppose, remove what you see as a paradox. -------------------------------------------------------- >H: to consider the notion of separate cittas at all, except as a >convention. Well me may say that just like making a whole (synthesis) out of parts is an activity of the mind, so is analysis. ---------------------------------------------------------- Yes, I'd say so. ------------------------------------------------------ Radical impermanence, by which I > mean "constant change," implies the merely conventional existence >of separate phenomena. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >So if a different dhamma has ceased, what has happened to the >dhamma that has arisen? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >H: Here you are engaged in similar questioning to that of Nagarjuna. Yes. The person on another board, being common Buddhist (as opposed to Theravada only board) was quoting Nagarjuna. Maybe the denial is of continuous change. Then yes, an object that has 0 duration cannot both arise and cease. --------------------------------------------------------- The whole notion of separate objects is, except as a speech convention, problematical if change is, as i believe, constant. Radical impermanence is a "cure" for reification. --------------------------------------------------------- > In fact, radical impermanence, by which I mean "constant change" >implies a thoroughgoing emptiness. > With metta, > Howard Can you please precisely define what you mean by emptiness? Non-existence? -------------------------------------------------------- Non-existence of separate entities. Utter lack of identity, self, or own-being ... anywhere. -------------------------------------------------------- Then how do you explain the empirical fact of experience (even if it is non-conceptual)? Experience or what makes it possible does exist, otherwise there would be no experience and nothing could read or write this post. ---------------------------------------------------------- Thinking operates, but it also is not a separate reality. It is conventionally separated off from "that." But here we are trying to approach reality through concept and convention, and that is not actually possible. -------------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ================================ With metta, Howard Emptiness /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #104566 From: Lukas Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 3. szmicio Dear Nina, Why is the sacca, kicca and kata ~nana exactly made? > We read in the commentary: > The knowledge that should understand the task to be done, > namely,? > what must be comprehended and what must be abandoned with > regard to? > these truths, that is called understanding of the > task? > (kicca~naa.na.m) . > The knowledge that understands the nature of each task, > namely, the? > fact of having comprehended and having abandoned (with > regard to? > these truths), is called the knowledge of what has been > done (kata? > ~naa.na.m). > ----------- L: So sacca ~nana is understanding of Truths and kicca is understanding that understand different tasks of different truths, like realisation and abandonment? Does kata ~nana knows different tasks, so that is on level of pativeda? Could you please say more on pariyatti, patipati and pativeda? Does sacca,kicca and kata ~nana can arise now? without realisation of nibbana? Best wishes Lukas > Pali: Tesuyeva "pari~n~neyya.m pahaatabba"nti eva.m? > kattabbakiccajaanana~naa.na.m kicca~naa.na.m naama. > "Pari~n~naata.m? > pahiina"nti eva.m tassa tassa kiccassa > katabhaavajaanana~naa.na.m? > kata~naa.na.m naama. #104567 From: Vince Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:21 pm Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] Life cerovzt@... Dear Lukas you wrote: > L: Yes, just moha. I really do consider this like that in life. I > feel it can lead gradually to development of 4 Noble Truths. sacca ~nana of the realities. > I've preperd some more analysis of paticcasamupada with my remarks. I will share it later. that's really good. I will be glad to read it :) best wishes, Vince. #104568 From: Vince Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Three rounds.1 cerovzt@... Dear Nina: >> V: Can you explain the relation of dependence in the arising of nama&rupa >> and consciousness, and the consequences in the understanding of rest >> of paramattaha-dhammas? > ------- > N: Could you clarify: rest of paramattaha-dhammas? > Do you mean: all the paramattha dhammas in general, or the other > factors mentioned in the D.O.? > I think Lukas' list may help you. I mean all the paramattaha-dhammas which are understood as sankhata-dhammas (conditioned). I would be glad to read how Sujin explain the relation of dependence in the arising of nama&rupa and consciousness (cited in D.O.) regarding the rest of conditioned paramattaha-dhammas appearing in the Abhidhamma. best wishes, Vince. #104569 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:41 pm Subject: Decisive Determination! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Determination is the 8th Mental Perfection: Only determination can completely fulfill the other mental perfections! Its characteristic is an unwavering decision, its function is to overcome hesitation, and its manifestation is unfaltering persistence in this task... The proximate cause of determination is strong willpower to succeed! Only the power of resolute determination lifts any praxis to perfection... When the Future Buddha placed his back against the trunk of the Bodhi tree, then he right there made this mighty decision: "Let just the blood and flesh of this body dry up and let the skin & sinews fall from the bones. I will not leave this seat before having attained that absolute supreme Enlightenment!" So determined did he invincibly seat himself, which not even 100 earthquakes could make him waver from. Jataka Nidana A female lay follower (Upasika) at the time of the Buddha kept pure the precepts, comprehended the nature of impermanence, the consequent fragility of the body and thereby won stream-entry (Sotapanna)... After passing away, she re-arose as the favourite attendant of Sakka, the king of Gods. Reviewing her own merit, she remembered her prior admonition to herself: "Let this body break up as it may, herein will not be any excuse or relaxation of the effort...!!!" Whose mind is like a rock, determined, unwavering, immovable, without a trace of lust of urging towards all the attractions, without a trace of aversion of pushing away all the repulsive, from what, can such a refined mind ever suffer? Udana IV - 4 Using the tools of Faith, Morality, Effort, Determination, Meditation and true Understanding of the Dhamma, one gradually perfects first knowing and then behaviour. So well equipped & always aware, one becomes capable of eliminating all of this great heap of suffering once and for all ... Dhammapada 144 What is being determined by right Motivation? The decision for being motivated by withdrawal, The decision for being motivated by good-will, The decision for being motivated by harmlessness: This is being determined by right Motivation... Samyutta Nik aya XLV 8 My mind is firm like a rock, unattached to sensual things, no shaking in the midst of a world, where all is decaying and vanishing... My mind has been thus well developed, so how can suffering ever touch me? Theragatha 194 The four determinations: One should not neglect the Dhamma, One should guard well the Truth, One should be devoted to Withdrawal, and one should train only for Peace. Majjhima Nikaya 140 Fearing being predestined for Hell if he became a King, who had to punish criminals violently, the Bodhisatta determined not to show any intelligence, and played dumb, deaf and crippled for sixteen years, only showing his real abilities, when he was on the verge of being buried alive! This was his ultimate perfection of resolute determination... The Basket of Conduct: Cariyapitaka More of the 10 mental perfections (paramis): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/The_Ten_Perfections.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104570 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:16 pm Subject: 5 Aggregates and Panna. truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, Is pa~n~na (wisdom) part of the aggregates? If so which aggregate, sankhara khandha? What happens to wisdom when 5 aggregates cease? (Nibbana without remainder) What prevents Avijja from filling in the vaccuum left by the panna? With metta, Alex #104571 From: han tun Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (6) hantun1 Dear Ken O, > Ken O: thanks it is the explanation from Sayadaw U Nyanissara, quoting the Commentary was quite refreshing. I felt the signifance of this particular sutta could only be shone brightly with the explanation from the commentary. Extracts from the comemntary in the email you wrote <><><> Shows clearly there is no self in the rounds of rebirth, it is due to latency, due to craving, due to kamma. It is just conditons of the dhammas coming together to nurture our rounds of rebirth in samasara. Again many thanks. I appreciate the time you took to write it. I enjoy reading it and particularly likes the commentary explanation on this sutta. It is a good dhamma gift for us here in the list ---------- Han: Thank you very much for your useful comments and the kind words. With metta and respect, Han #104572 From: "daung46" Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: How to link Sankhara to Sensation to Anatta daung46 Its vipassana meditation, Thanks. David --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear David, > Op 19-jan-2010, om 18:50 heeft daung46 het volgende geschreven: > > > My next question is how to link Sankhara to Sensation to Anicca, > > Dukkha and Anatta when meditate? > ------- > N: Sankhaarakkhanda and vedanaakkhandha, feeling, always arise > together. They mutually condition one another. The five khandhas are > the naama and ruupa arising and falling away in our daily life. > Sankhaarakkhandha are all cetasikas (mental factors accompanying > citta or vi~n~naa.nakkhandha) except the cetasikas that are vedanaa > and sa~n~naa, which each are a separate khandha. There is strong > clinging to feeling (sensation is not such a good translation) and > sa~n~naa, remembrance. These two cetasikas arise with each citta. As > to sankhaarakkhandha, this includes sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas, > akusala cetasikas and cetasikas that are neither sobhana nor akusala. > Thus, they do not arise all at the same time. When there is clinging, > sobhana cetasikas do not arise. When there is right understanding of > anattaa, sobhana cetasikas arise. > Feeling is different each time, since it is conditioned by the > accompanying citta and cetasikas. When happy feeling accompanies > clinging it is different from happy feeling accompanying right > understanding. In the latter case it is conditioned by the > accompanying sobhana cetasikas, including calm. When it accompanies > clinging it is not calm. > You ask about meditation, but it depends what you mean by it, samatha > or vipassanaa. > Only through insight the understanding of the three characteristics > can be developed and this is a long process. First there has to be > intellectual understanding about the nature of naama and ruupa. > Nina. > > #104573 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:49 pm Subject: Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma in Chinese ashkenn2k Dear all Chew has kindly sent me this link which I felt should be share in this forum. Thanks Chew for your gift of dhamma. A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma in Chinese (Read online) http://www.dhamma.net.cn/books/abdmgyjj/abdngyjj-001.htm (Download Link) http://dhamma.hcidc.net/downloads/abdmgyjj.zip This Chinese website you can obtain a lot of useful information in Chinese, http://www.dhamma.net.cn/ Cheers Ken O #104574 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:34 pm Subject: Re: Life szmicio Dear Nina, David, Ken 0, Alex, Han, Sarah and all, Paticcasamupada is the most profound Dhamma teaching. It's very hard to grasp the meaning. I wanna share my remarks on it. I will quote vibhangapali, section on paticasamupadda as it goes(with PTS transl.): Buddha said: Avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraa, sa"nkhaarapaccayaa vi~n~naa.na.m, vi~n~naa.napaccayaa naamaruupa.m, naamaruupapaccayaa sa.laayatana.m, sa.laayatanapaccayaa phasso, phassapaccayaa vedanaa, vedanaapaccayaa ta.nhaa, ta.nhaapaccayaa upaadaana.m, upaadaanapaccayaa bhavo, bhavapaccayaa jaati, jaatipaccayaa jaraamara.na.m sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupaayaasaa sambhavanti. L: I like sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupaayaasa. Sometimes I can think when I have unpleasant feeling: This grieve lamentation pain and despair, this is only moha that conditions this. No I who do this or who can stop this. I cant change my suffering, cause it's gone now. So it helps very much. We could think almost everything of paticcasamupadda, but The Blessed One gave us detailed explanation of this. He said: ============== <226. Tattha katamaa avijjaa? Dukkhe a~n~naa.na.m, dukkhasamudaye a~n~naa.na.m, dukkhanirodhe a~n~naa.na.m, dukkhanirodhagaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya a~n~naa.na.m – aya.m vuccati avijjaa.> Therein what is ignorance? Absence of knowledge of suffering, absence of knowladge of the cause of suffering, absence of knowladge of the cessation of suffering, absence of knowladge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance. -- L: a~n~nanam so this is not the knowladge of the 4 Noble Truths. This is why the whole suffering arises. Not having known dukkha, origin of dukkha, cessation of dukkha, and the Path. S this is important to understand 4 Noble Truths in daily life. Therein what is 'because of ignorance activities arise'? Activity producing good(resultant), activity producing bad(resultant), activity producing unshakeable (resultant), bodily activity, verbal activity, mental activity. -- L: pu~n~na means merit, the good deed I think so. I think pu~n~naabhisankhara can mean all those sankharas that leads to good, and the opposite with apu~n~naabhisankhara. I cannot get aane~njaabhisankhara. Here the Blessed One asked: Here what is avijjaapaccayaa sankhara? And the answer is: all that deeds that leads to good merits and all those that leads to bad merits, those that neither lead to good or bad, activities of body, activities of speach, and mental activities. That's how I feel it now. Please correct me if I am wrong. I like especially this answer very much, because here the question was asked: what does 'ignorance conditions sankharas' means? And the Blessed One just said: kaya sankhara - so all conditioned activities that are doing good or bad deeds or not bad and good. vaciisankhara - all activities of speach by their own, speak not I. Now when I am writiing this, this is only vaciisankharas that speak, just different fleeting moments of mind. This is only avijja that can speak, not I. Therein what is 'activity producing good (resultant)'? Good volition characteristic of the plane of desire, characteristic of the plane of form, occassioned by giving, occassioned by morality, occassioned by meditation. This is called activity producing good(resultant). -- L: the conditioned element of cetana. Not my volition, not my good or bad volition. Just the conditioned element of volition. No choosing, jus moha conditions different cetanas not I. avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraa. Therein what is activity producing bad (resultant)? bad volition characteristic of the plane of desire. This is called activity producing bad (resultant). Therein what is activity producing unshakeable (resultant)? Good volition characteristic of the formless plane . This is called activity producing unshakeable(resultant). Therein what is bodily activity? Bodily volition is bodily activity; verbal volition is verbal activity; mental volition is mental activity. These are called 'becase of ignorance activities arise' ======================= L: I think avijja is also latent-tendency, so even kusala now, it's there as latent tendency. Best wishes Lukas #104575 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject sarahprocter... Hi pt (& Ken O), I'm glad to read your further discussion and research. --- On Sun, 17/1/10, ptaus1 wrote: >pt: On page 192 in katthavathu, there is first a short intro, which I believe you are basing your opinion on, and which says: >"From the commentary. - Space is of three modes: as confined or delimited, as abstracted from object, as empty or inane. Of these the first is conditioned; the other two are mere abstract ideas. But some, like the Uttarapathakas and Mahimsasakas, hold that the two latter modes also, inasmuch as [being mental functions] they are not conditioned, must therefore be unconditioned. " The text then proceeds as you quoted. >Now, there is one significant omission here - I checked the actual commentary to katthavathu (page 114, paragraph VI), and though the text is the same as above, there is also a note (1) which says that the second type of space - as abstracted from object - is in fact: "kasin'ugghaatim, - referring to Jhana-procedure only." >This of course makes a huge difference in the context we are discussing - i.e. it would seem that the second meaning of space in the katthavatthu paragraph you quote doesn't refer to unconditioned space, but to space kasina, which I believe we all agree is a concept. >So, in that sense it would seem that Katthavatthu is trying to refute that unconditioned concepts (that include space-kasina) are equivalent to unconditioned nibbana, which makes sense. So, it doesn't seem to be referring to the unconditioned space at all. ... S: yes, and I think this (taking the arupa jhana object for nibbana) was exactly the view that was prevalent among those who were able to attain arupa jhanas - mistaking the attainments for nibbana. In his introduction to the Brahmajala Sutta (BPS: "All Embracing Net of Views"), B.Bodhi makes the point that a great number, perhaps even the majority, of wrong views included in "the net" have their source in samatha/jhana attainments, such as this one. He writes: "As our sutta shows, many of these views make their appearance only at the end of a prolonged course of meditation involving firm renunciation, intense devotion, and keen contemplative zeal." There's lots of detail in the commentaries (included in the text) on various views which may be relevant...in the end, all coming back to self-view, of course.... Metta Sarah ======== #104576 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary sarahprocter... Hi Dieter, --- On Sun, 17/1/10, Dieter Moeller wrote: >>" Jon, I and many others have been referring to this dictionary for decades and quoting from it for ten years on DSG. Yes, it does contain some errors as would any modern reference text, but this does not mean it's not an invaluable resource, full of helpful references as we've often commented." D:> well said , Sarah ! Actually it is more than a dictionary , it is manual , I.M.H.O. written by somebody with deep understanding of the Buddha Dhamma. I still admire this great monk , being the second westener admitted into the Order about 100 years ago. (You may know that Nyanaponika Maha Thera was his student and Bhikkhu Bodhi learnt much from the latter.) ... S: Thx Dieter and yes, I agree with your comments. A few years ago we had to replace our copy because it was completing falling apart due to heavy use over the years including being one of the few books that travelled with me round India and Sri Lanka in the early 70s and then on other trips. .... >Being in consensus with this resource (and assuming no major errors) I wonder why the discussion about the samadhi part of the Noble Path seems to remain fruitless .. ... S: There are some errors which I wouldn't call minor - I mentioned a few to B.Bodhi once, as editor of BPS, but he pointed out that it's almost impossible to make any changes once an author or compiler has passed away. As Jon suggested, would you like to introduce a discussion about "the samadhi part of the Noble Path" which you refer to? Metta Sarah p.s Are you sure you won't be in Bkk before we leave in early March? ======== #104577 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gnosis sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, I found your research helpful. I'm never clear what "gnosis" refers to, so this helps - paramatthavijja, i.e knowledge of paramattha dhammas. I think a friend mentioned that, in context, it refers to arahatship. Appreciated! Metta Sarah --- On Sun, 17/1/10, charlest wrote: >Some one recently asked about "gnosis." I did not observe an answer. Hence, I try... 1. From English-Pali Dictionary by A. P. Buddhadatta Mahathera, page 227: Gnosis, n. paramatthavijja, f. 2. From Buddhist Dictionary by Ajahn Nyanatiloka, page 149 - 150: paramattha (sacca, -vacana, -desana): 'truth (or term, exposition) that true in the highest (or ultimate) sense' as, contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohara-sacca) , which is also called 'commonly truth' (sammuti-sacca -Skt. samvrti-satya) . NOTE: There are several more paragraphs detailing further. 3. From Buddhist Dictionary by ajahn Nyanatiloka, page 226: vijja: '(higher) knowledge' gnosis. For the threefold , s. abhinna and te-vijja. Cf. vijja-carana. ... #104578 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Mon, 18/1/10, truth_aerator wrote: >At the moment of right understanding there is right understanding. >If it is right, then it is supported by right concentration, which is supported by right virtue. Without developing the 1st floor, you can't really develop the 3rd one. The whole structure may fall down and crumble. ... S: the "Ist floor" is right view (sammaadi.t.thi). As B.Bodhi puts it in his introduction to the Brahmajala Sutta (BPS), "Thence in the exposition of the Noble Eightfold Path right view (sammadi.t.thi) is given first. From right view spring all the remaining factors of the path, culminating in right knowledge and right emancipation.......As the Buddha explains: 'Right view, bhikkhus is the forerunner (pubba'ngama). And how is right view the forerunner? If one understands wrong view as wrong view and understands right view as right view, that is right view' (M. 117)." ... >This can be seen in some awful statements about "no killer, no killed, no knife". >Is there right understanding that denies morality? ... S: What you suggest is a complete wrong understanding of the right understanding of the eightfold path. The ariyan disciples without any mis-apprehension of conventional terms, without any misapprehension of paramattha dhammas, have the purest morality. .... >Also: How can there be right understanding if it is impotent and cannot deal with the 5 hindrances and enter Jhana? ... S: Right understanding of any degree and any level can never be "impotent" - when it arises, there are no hindrances to be "dealt with". They don't arise at such moments. Again, there can be no jhanas without right understanding. .... > > Even properly using Buddha Dhamma? Didn't He teach us the Dhamma >to be used as a raft for crossing the sea to the yonder shore? > ... > S: Yes, the eightfold path is the raft and it is the attachment to the raft that has to be relinquished. > ... >But you don't abandon the raft in the middle of the sea! ... S: It is the attachments that are gradually abandoned, not the right view and other 8fold path factors. .... >> S: Let's take the first doorway the Buddha always speaks about: the >eye-door. What is the difference between visible object in the >kitchen and visible object in seclusion? A:>The difference is that the visual object in seclusion will not grab your attention as much as seeing your friend cutting a finger. ... S: Again, you are confusing concepts with paramattha dhammas. The Buddha helped those who were sick - he understood that there are still only paramattha dhammas, such as seeing, visible object and thinking at such moments. If there is an idea that any dhamma, such as visible object, should "grab your attention", it's attachment again, not right understanding. ... >>S:The more understanding there is of visible object, of seeing, of >different namas and rupas, the less idea there is of "kitchen" or >"concentration" or "sitting in seclusion" as being of any >significance on the path. > .... A:> Then why did the Buddha talk about "home life is crowded and dusty... going forth is like open air... What if I were to shave and become a recluse" ? ... S: What is "crowded and dusty" at this moment? Surely, it's not referring to the clothes we're wearing or the kitchen. It is the kilesa, the defilements, that are dusty now. This is the same for all - "the dust of the defilements". ... >What if "reality appearing now" is some akusala tendency? Ex: being angry at a kitchen and wanting to strike the other person? ... S: Surely this is the time for such akusala and its great harm to be directly known. It's not yours, mine or anybody else's - just another conditioned dhamma. If it's not directly understood, it'll never be eradicated, no matter how long one lives alone in the forest. Metta Sarah ======== #104579 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:02 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, When right understanding begins to develop, however, it cannot yet be clear, direct understanding immediately. The mental phenomena and physical phenomena which appear in daily life have to be investigated over and over again. As I explained in chapter 7, not concepts but ultimate realities are the objects of direct understanding. The characteristics of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, attachment or generosity can be investigated by right understanding of the eightfold Path. In that way they can be seen as only conditioned realities which are non-self. When there are conditions for the arising of right understanding it arises and investigates the reality which presents itself at that moment through one of the six doors. Right understanding arises and then falls away immediately together with the citta it accompanies, but it is accumulated and therefore there are conditions for its arising again. In this way understanding can develop; it develops, there is no person who develops it. Right understanding can penetrate the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and non-self and it can eventually realize the four noble Truths. Right thinking is another Path factor. Right thinking is not the same as what we mean by thinking in conventional sense. When we use the word thinking in conventional language we mean thinking of a concept, an event or a story. In the ultimate sense thinking is a mental factor which accompanies many types of citta, although not every type. Thinking touches or hits the object which citta experiences and in this way assists the citta in cognizing that object. The mental factor thinking experiences the same object as the citta it accompanies. The object can be a concept and also an ultimate reality, a mental phenomenon or a physical phenomenon. Thinking arises merely for an extremely short moment together with the citta and then it falls away with the citta. Thinking can be akusala, kusala or neither akusala nor kusala. When it is akusala it is wrong thinking and when it is kusala it is right thinking. ****** Nina. #104580 From: Lukas Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 3. szmicio Dear Nina, very good reminder for me. > Right thinking is another Path factor. Right thinking is > not the same > as what we mean by thinking in conventional sense. When we > use the > word thinking in conventional language we mean thinking of > a concept, > an event or a story. In the ultimate sense thinking is a > mental > factor which accompanies many types of citta, although not > every > type. Thinking “touches” or “hits” the object which > citta experiences > and in this way assists the citta in cognizing that object. > The > mental factor thinking experiences the same object as the > citta it > accompanies. The object can be a concept and also an > ultimate > reality, a mental phenomenon or a physical phenomenon. L: Very true. The right understanding is the understanding of 4 Noble Truths. the 4th Noble Truth is understanding of path leading to nibbana. And vittaka is samma-sankapa. This is the 4th Noble Truth. My best wishes Lukas #104581 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:38 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary jonoabb Hi Dieter (104516) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > SACCA: .... .: "What now, o monks, is right effort? If the disciple rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, demeritorious things that have not yet arisen; ... if he rouses his will to overcome the evil, demeritorious things that have already arisen; ... if he rouses his will to produce meritorious things that have not yet arisen; ... if he rouses his will to maintain the meritorious things that have already arisen and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development; he thus makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives (s. padhana). quoted from MN 44 > > Wouldn't you agree that the development of mindfulness/awareness and basing on that of insight/panna needs right effort as explained by the sixth step? > =============== Yes, I agree that the development of the path requires both insight/panna (the factor of samma-ditthi) and right effort (the factor of samma-vayama). In fact, as I think you know already, it's my understanding that the development of insight requires the co-arising of the various path factors (minimum of 5). So then the question is, What is that right effort? Ven. Nyanatiloka refers the reader to his entry on 'padhaana' ('effort'). There is given the description from A. IV. 14. For example, as regards the first of the 4 right efforts (the effort to avoid the arising of evil, demeritorious things that have not yet arisen), the sutta says: (1) "What now, o monks, is the effort to avoid? Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise, such as greed and sorrow, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses. This is called the effort to avoid." The crucial part of that passage, in my view, is the following: "Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts." This is a description of the arising of kusala consciousness of the level of satipatthana. No adherence to the form or detail (anubhyancana). Likewise, the (indirect) reference to the senses being guarded is also a reference to awareness of the level of satipatthana. It cannot, in my view, be a reference to conventional directed effort, since such effort always lags behind the moment of consciousness to which it is directed. Expressions such as "he watches over his senses, restrains his senses" have to be understood in the context of the teaching on dhammas in general. It is sati-panna that does the 'watching over' and 'restraining'. Jon #104582 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Dieter) - In a message dated 1/22/2010 8:40:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: So then the question is, What is that right effort? Ven. Nyanatiloka refers the reader to his entry on 'padhaana' ('effort'). There is given the description from A. IV. 14. For example, as regards the first of the 4 right efforts (the effort to avoid the arising of evil, demeritorious things that have not yet arisen), the sutta says: (1) "What now, o monks, is the effort to avoid? Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise, such as greed and sorrow, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses. This is called the effort to avoid." The crucial part of that passage, in my view, is the following: "Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts." This is a description of the arising of kusala consciousness of the level of satipatthana. No adherence to the form or detail (anubhyancana). Likewise, the (indirect) reference to the senses being guarded is also a reference to awareness of the level of satipatthana. It cannot, in my view, be a reference to conventional directed effort, since such effort always lags behind the moment of consciousness to which it is directed. Expressions such as "he watches over his senses, restrains his senses" have to be understood in the context of the teaching on dhammas in general. It is sati-panna that does the 'watching over' and 'restraining'. ============================= I find it interesting how we humans are so selective. ;-) I see here what you consider to be "the crucial part." I guess you find "he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise, such as greed and sorrow, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses. This is called the effort to avoid." That seems quite "crucial" to me! ;-) With metta, Howard Right Effort "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" — _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) #104583 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:48 am Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 jonoabb Hi Alex (104440) > >Would you agree, from your experience in life, that kusala can and >does arise in a day without there being directed effort? > > Intentional actions that arises naturally, once were NOT natural. > =============== I overlooked this answer of yours when replying to your message the other day. Are you saying that kusala of the kind that is dana and sila only arises if there has been 'practice' of the dana and sila so that it has become 'natural'? I don't see how that can be so. Even young children are capable of dana and sila. To my reading of the teachings, one's level of skilfulness depends on previously accumulated tendencies, not on there being some kind of 'practice'. Jon #104584 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma in Chinese nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 22-jan-2010, om 6:49 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Chew has kindly sent me this link which I felt should be share in > this forum. Thanks Chew for your gift of dhamma. > > A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma in Chinese ------- N: That is kind of him. I do not know chinese, but this reminds me of something. This book is good to explain Abh from the very beginning. Just as Jill's and Richard's book. As I said to Vince: we should go back to basics. Jill used to ask: 'Does this make sense?" after some explanations. I still hear her say this. How would you begin to explain Abhidhamma? I ask because I had a request at another list. Nina. #104585 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Life nilovg Dear Lukas, Thank you. I liked your own remarks in between, it is helpful. Nina. Op 22-jan-2010, om 7:34 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Paticcasamupada is the most profound Dhamma teaching. It's very > hard to grasp the meaning. #104586 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates and Panna. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 22-jan-2010, om 2:16 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Is pa~n~na (wisdom) part of the aggregates? If so which aggregate, > sankhara khandha? ------ N: Yes, it is cetasika. All cetasikas except vedanaa and sa~n~naa are sa"nkhaarakkhandha. ------- > > A: What happens to wisdom when 5 aggregates cease? (Nibbana without > remainder) -------- N: It also has to cease. At each moment the khandhas cease, fall away, but so long as we are in the cycle there are conditions for their arising again. ------- > > A: What prevents Avijja from filling in the vaccuum left by the panna? -------- N: The arahat has eradicated avijjaa completely, never to arise again. This did not come all of a sudden. There are four stages of enlightenment, and at each stage the noble Truths are realized, but more deeply at each stage. Just now the four Truths are covered up by ignorance. However, at each moment of understanding a little more of naama and ruupa, just a very tiny bit of ignorance wears away. So little, it is like the knife's handle that is hold each day. You do not see its wearing away, but it does. ------ Nina. #104587 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three rounds.1 nilovg Dear Vince, I took a note of your question. Nina. Op 21-jan-2010, om 22:42 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > I would be glad to read how Sujin explain the relation of dependence > in the arising of nama&rupa and consciousness (cited in D.O.) > regarding the rest of conditioned paramattaha-dhammas appearing in the > Abhidhamma. #104588 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 3. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 21-jan-2010, om 21:17 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Why is the sacca, kicca and kata ~nana exactly made? -------- To show that there must be a basis for further development of pa~n~naa, and to show that there is agradual development from pariyatti, to pa.tipatti, to direct realisation of the Truth. -------- L: So sacca ~nana is understanding of Truths and kicca is understanding that understand different tasks of different truths, like realisation and abandonment? ------ N: kicca~naa.na is of the level of pa.tipatti, direct awareness and understanding. When lobha, the cause of dukkha arises, there can be direct awareness of it. It is seen as a mere dhamma and in this way there will eventually be abandonment of it. -------- L: Does kata ~nana knows different tasks, so that is on level of pativeda? -------- N: When there is direct realisation of the truth it does not mean that sacca-~naa.na and kicca ~naa.na are no more. They will arise all the time, but they are strengthened as pa~n~naa grows. ---------- L: Could you please say more on pariyatti, patipati and pativeda? -------- N: Quote from Cambodian talks: Sujin: There are different levels of pa, namely, pariyatti, theoretical knowledge, paipatti, practice, and paivedha, realization. Question: In what way are these levels of pa different? Sujin: What appears now? Answer: Hardness. That is a reality. Sujin: Why do you say that it is a reality? Answer: Because I remember that everything is a dhamma with its own characteristic (sabhva dhamma). Sujin: This is understanding of the level of pariyatti. Pradip: Pa of the level of pariyatti is the understanding stemming from listening. When we listen we learn something we had not known before: dhammas arise and appear through the six doorways of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind-door. Through the eyes only colour is known, through the ears only sound. Realities are not beings, people or self. Sujin: When hardness appears, there are two kinds of realities: hardness and the experience of hardness. The moment of sati and of pa that gradually begins to understand realities, is very short, because such a moment arises and then falls away extremely rapidly. It is impossible that there is immediately clear understanding of realities. There can gradually be awareness and more understanding of the characteristic which experiences, of the reality which experiences hardness; there will be more understanding of that characteristic as it really is. This is satipahna, but not yet of the level of paivedha, the direct realization of the truth. One only begins to develop correct understanding of the characteristics of realities we used to take for people, for beings, for this or that thing. When sati arises and is aware of what appears, one begins to understand that there are only different dhammas, each with their own characteristic, and that this is reality. When sati arises people will know when they are forgetful of realities and when there is sati. Knowing the difference between the moment of sati and the moment of forgetfulness is the beginning level of its development, and people can only know this themselves. Other people cannot know with regard to someone else what sati is aware of, whether sati arises or not. Each person can only know this for himself. > ------------ L: Does sacca,kicca and kata ~nana can arise now? without realisation of nibbana? ------ N: It depends on the level of understanding of the individual. No use to speculate about this. They can arise before the realisation of nibbaana. But for kata-~naa.na stages of insight must have arisen, at the arising of a stage of insight there is realisation. ***** Nina. #104589 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma in Chinese nilovg Dear Ken O, I sent your letter on to the pali list, since there are several Chinese speaking people there. Nina. Op 22-jan-2010, om 6:49 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Chew has kindly sent me this link which I felt should be share in > this forum. Thanks Chew for your gift of dhamma. > > A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma in Chinese #104590 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 3. szmicio Dear Nina, Thanks for reminding: pariyatti goes with listening. I forgot this. > N: kicca~naa.na is of the level of pa.tipatti, direct awareness and > understanding. When lobha, the cause of dukkha arises, there can be > direct awareness of it. It is seen as a mere dhamma and in this way > there will eventually be abandonment of it. > -------- L: On the level o sacca ~nana does differnt tasks of different Noble Truths can be known? I understand kicca ~nana as understanding of different tasks. For example: direct experience of origin of dukkha, that is lobha. is a task of abandonment. What you said recently, just a lot of moment of lobha in life. almost all the time and we dont realize it. They blink in one moment and they are gone, we cannot control them. But in life there can be understanding of those fleeting moments of lobha(not we that can understand, just different realizations of 4 Noble Truths, that can understand - just sankhara dhamma), so in such moments there is understanding of them(patipati) and the understanding of different tasks(kicca nana) in this case abandonment od it(lobha). Not we that abandon lobha, but just realization of the task. That's how i feel it now. > L: Does sacca,kicca and kata ~nana can arise now? without realisation > of nibbana? > ------ > N: It depends on the level of understanding of the individual. No use > to speculate about this. They can arise before the realisation of > nibbaana. But for kata-~naa.na stages of insight must have arisen, at > the arising of a stage of insight there is realisation. L: So if there was present first insight, namaruupaparicheda ~nana then 3 rounds were understood? Best wishes Lukas #104591 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > --- On Mon, 18/1/10, truth_aerator wrote: > >At the moment of right understanding there is right understanding. > > >If it is right, then it is supported by right concentration, which is supported by right virtue. Without developing the 1st floor, you can't really develop the 3rd one. The whole structure may fall down and crumble. > ... > S: the "Ist floor" is right view (sammaadi.t.thi). And what is the cause for right view? As I understand it, the real N8P starts with stream entry path. So before one is a stream-enterer there cannot be full, or established, right view. > A:> Then why did the Buddha talk about "home life is crowded and dusty... going forth is like open air... What if I were to shave and become a recluse" ? > ... > S: What is "crowded and dusty" at this moment? Surely, it's not referring to the clothes we're wearing or the kitchen. > > It is the kilesa, the defilements, that are dusty now. This is the same for all - "the dust of the defilements". Do you have commentary to DN#2, Samanaphala sutta ? There the commentary does explain the above passages to refer to lay life vs a monastic life and the importance of the monastic life. "The discourse on the fruits of recluseship, The Samannaphala Sutt and its Commentaries by Bhikkhu Bodhi" - pg 102 ===== As I understand it, the 227 monastic rules are aimed at curbing the major and lesser defilements. Many of these rules cannot really be fulfilled by the laity. Not consistently. Thank you for your replies, With metta, Alex #104592 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:11 am Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, > "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (104440) > > >Would you agree, from your experience in life, that kusala can and >does arise in a day without there being directed effort? > > > > Intentional actions that arises naturally, once were NOT natural. > > =============== > >I overlooked this answer of yours when replying to your message the >other day. > > Are you saying that kusala of the kind that is dana and sila only >arises if there has been 'practice' of the dana and sila so that it >has become 'natural'? I don't see how that can be so. Even young >children are capable of dana and sila. > > To my reading of the teachings, one's level of skilfulness depends on previously accumulated tendencies, not on there being some kind of 'practice'. > > Jon > In the above case what I have said is that unless there is practice, one will not be a skillful at an action. Riding a bike is easy after there has been a sufficient practice not too long ago. By avoiding to ride a bike until one is skillful at it, will practically result in never sitting on a bike. This is very relevant to certain comments made by certain people about samatha. There will not be samatha if the causes for it, the practice, is not set. As to dana & sila, it may depend on certain understanding (mundane or supramundane. Buddhist or non-Buddhist) and qualities of the mind such as sufficient alobha. If a person has enough lobha, then that person may not be able to give gifts, even if s/he knows that it is wrong to be stingy. Certain kinds of samatha meditation may help, if not in this life - then in the next ones. With metta, Alex #104593 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:46 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Sarah , you wrote: Jon, I and many others have been referring to this dictionary for decades and quoting from it for ten years on DSG. Yes, it does contain some errors as would any modern reference text, but this does not mean it's not an invaluable resource, full of helpful references as we've often commented." ..... Thx Dieter and yes, I agree with your comments. A few years ago we had to replace our copy because it was completing falling apart due to heavy use over the years including being one of the few books that travelled with me round India and Sri Lanka in the early 70s and then on other trips. .... D: reminds me on my own copy .. good that we have it now on-line ;-) S: ( D: Being in consensus with this resource (and assuming no major errors) I wonder why the discussion about the samadhi part of the Noble Path seems to remain fruitless ..) There are some errors which I wouldn't call minor - I mentioned a few to B.Bodhi once, as editor of BPS, but he pointed out that it's almost impossible to make any changes once an author or compiler has passed away. D: let us talk about the ones 'not minor' ..... I too have something in mind .. considering that the author completed the first edition under rather difficult circumstances about 60 years ago , it would be great if some footnotes for the on-line version would be possible (for errors not minor /respectively different interpretations agreed by B.Bodhi as well . Perhaps he may re-consider when a change of the orginal can be avoided by that ..? ) S:As Jon suggested, would you like to introduce a discussion about "the samadhi part of the Noble Path" which you refer to? D: yes.. with the hope of some progress in mutual understanding with Metta Dieter p.s Are you sure you won't be in Bkk before we leave in early March? sorry , I could not manage before and booked for arrival Bkk March 11.. #104594 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:51 pm Subject: Friendliness Frees! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Friendly Goodwill is the 9th Mental Perfection: Friendliness means Goodwill Friendliness means Kindness Friendliness means Helpfulness Friendliness means Assistance Friendliness means Support Friendliness means Benevolence Friendliness means Concern Friendliness means Care Friendliness means Compassion Friendliness means Cooperation Friendliness means Mutual Aid Friendliness means Mutual Advantage Friendliness means Sympathy Friendliness means Symbiosis Only friendliness can completely evaporate the poison of hate and anger! Its characteristic is promoting other being's welfare, its function is to do only good, and its manifestation is kindness, sympathy, and gentleness... The proximate cause of friendliness is seeing the good aspects of things! The proximate cause of understanding compassion is this very friendliness! The Blessed Buddha said about friendliness (Metta): "Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the release of mind by universal friendliness; in shining, glowing and beaming radiance, this release of mind by universal friendliness far excels & surpasses them all..." What are the 11 Advantages of cultivating such Universal Friendliness? The four Brahma Viharas; The four Divine States: The four Supreme States; The four Infinite States: "Friends, eleven advantages are to be expected as effect from the release of mind into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by cultivating amity, by making much of it frequently, by making friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the basis, by insisting on it, by being well established in it as a sublime habit! What are these eleven advantages ? One falls asleep well! One wakes up Happy! One dreams no evil dreams! One is liked and loved by all human beings! One is liked and loved by all non-human beings too! One is guarded and protected by the divine devas! One cannot be harmed by fire, poison, or weapons! One easily attains the concentration of absorption! Ones appearance becomes serene, calm, and composed! One dies without confusion, bewilderment, or panic! One reappears after death on the Brahma level, if one has penetrated to no higher level in this very life! When the mind is released into friendliness by the practice of goodwill, by manifesting friendliness, by cultivating amity, by frequently making much of it, by making friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the basis, the medium, the foundation, by persisting in it, by insisting on it, by properly consolidating it, by thoroughly undertaking it, by making it a familiar supreme habit, by so being well established in it, these eleven blessings can be expected!" Anguttara Nikaya V 342 There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of friendly loving-kindness pervading first one direction, then a 2nd one, then a 3rd one then the 4th one, as below so above, across and all around, everywhere identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is encompassing the whole world with a mind of friendly loving-kindness, with a wide mind, vast, refined, unbounded, cleared, exalted, pure and bright, free from all hate and ill will ... There, Oh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of understanding compassion pervading first the front, then the right side, then the back, then the left side, as below so above, across & all around, all over, far & wide; identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is perfusing the whole universe with a mind imbued with pity, with a spacious mind, a refined mind, infinite, purified, all luminous, freed from all anger and any trace of enmity ... There, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of altruistic, sympathetic and mutual Joy pervading the North, then the East, then the South, then the West, as below so above, across & all around, universally, infinitely; identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is suffusing all galaxies with a mind elevated by genuine mutual and altruistic sympathetic joy, with an open mind, immeasurable, wide, limitless, pure & shining, free from all aversion and bitterness ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of balanced equanimity is pervading first the frontal quadrant, then the right, then the rear & then the left quadrant, as below so above, across and all around, everywhere placing himself with all sentient beings, he is permeating the whole world with a mind satiated of stilled and balanced equanimity, calmed, with a mountain-like mind, cultivated, endless, clean, dazzling, freed from any irritation and resentment." "So too, Bhikkhus, others may speak to you timely or untimely, true or untrue, gentle or harsh, beneficial or harmful, based on kindness or on bitter hate! If they abuse you verbally, you should train yourselves in this way: "Our minds will remain unaffected, we shall speak no angry words, will dwell friendly and understanding, with thoughts of kindness and no inward anger! We shall remain friendly and beam goodwill towards that very person, and we shall dwell extending it to the entire universe, mentally overflowing, exalted, measureless and infinite in friendliness, without any trace hostility or ill-will." That is how you should train yourselves. Even if bandits were savagely to cut you up, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, one who harbours hate on that account, would not be one who carried out my teaching. Bhikkhus, you should keep this instruction on this Simile of the Saw constantly in mind... Majjhima Nikaya, Sutta 21 Thus he who both day and night takes delight in harmlessness sharing love with all that lives, finds enmity with none... Samyutta Nikaya. I 208 When one with a mind of love feels compassion for the entire world above, below and across, unlimited everywhere. Jataka 37 The Bodhisatta once was born as the righteous king Ekaraja. His kingdom was taken by force and he and his son was buried in a pit to the neck... King Ekaraja, however neither resisted, nor bore even slight ill will against the invaders. Later he remembered this as his ultimate perfection of friendliness. Ekaraja Jataka 303 On the Practice of Loving-Kindness (Metta): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel007.html <..> Have a friendly, nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104595 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:34 pm Subject: Re: Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship ptaus1 Dear Sarah, An update to this thread: it seems there is "pre-bodhisatta" career after all, called manopanidhi - from the "Dictionary of Pali Names" by G.P. Malalasekera: http://palikanon.com/english/pali_names/b/bodhisatta.htm "In the developed form of the ideas regarding Bodhisattas, a Bodhisatta's career started with his making a resolution before a Buddha (abhinīhārakarana or mūlapanidhāna) to become a Buddha for the welfare and liberation of all creatures. In later literature, the abhinīhāra is preceded by a period during which the Bodhisatta practises manopanidhi, when he resolves in his mind to desire to become a Buddha without declaring this intention to others." Not sure though what's meant exactly by later literature there... Best wishes pt > > >pt: > > For (b) I'm still not sure what is it exactly that is stopping them - "fullfilled all the conditions for becoming a bodhisatta" - what are the "all conditions"? Thanks. > > ... > > S: [U.P. "Bodhisatta"] > > > > 1.- human being > > 2.- male > > 3.- only one who is capable of enlightenment in the life he makes the wish > > 4.- wish only in the presence of a living Buddha > > 5.- only a recluse or monk (not a layman) > > 6.- only one who has attained all jhanas and powers > > 7.- firm resolve and ‘ready to sacrifice his life for The Buddhas’ > > 8.- determination to develop paramis and qualities of a Buddha > > 9.-able to endure extraordinary and unbelievable hardship > > pt: > Okay, so standard bodhisatta conditions. Sorry, for some reason I assumed that you were implying there's some special kind of intentional pre-bodhisatta practice/career that must be fulfilled before one enters bodhisatta career. #104596 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 ashkenn2k Dear Alex Riding bicycle is full of self. Dhamma is not self. When there is a self, there is miccha ditthi, and when this arise, there is no panna. Without panna there is no eradication of akusala thanks Ken O ********************************************* In the above case what I have said is that unless there is practice, one will not be a skillful at an action. Riding a bike is easy after there has been a sufficient practice not too long ago. By avoiding to ride a bike until one is skillful at it, will practically result in never sitting on a bike. This is very relevant to certain comments made by certain people about samatha. There will not be samatha if the causes for it, the practice, is not set. As to dana & sila, it may depend on certain understanding (mundane or supramundane. Buddhist or non-Buddhist) and qualities of the mind such as sufficient alobha. If a person has enough lobha, then that person may not be able to give gifts, even if s/he knows that it is wrong to be stingy. Certain kinds of samatha meditation may help, if not in this life - then in the next ones. With metta, Alex #104597 From: han tun Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:19 am Subject: Dhaniya Sutta (7) hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah, and others, I am presenting Snp 1.2 Dhaniya Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and the explanations by Sayadaw U Nyanissara. It is about the dialogue between Dhaniya, a wealthy cattle owner, and the Buddha. Dhaniya lived at the time when the Buddha was staying at Saavatthi. It was the monsoon season, just before the onset of rain. He had built strong shelters for himself, his family and for the cattle on the bank of the River Mahi. The Buddha, however, knew that this family was in danger of being overwhelmed by the flood, and also knew that Dhaniya was ready to take in His teachings and attain spiritual attainment. So by His supernormal powers, He appeared outside of Dhaniya's shelter, at the tree top level. While Dhaniya was rejoicing in the comfort and security, he uttered verses depicting his accomplishments and how he was prepared for the rain, and challenging the rain god to go ahead and rain. The Buddha also uttered verses that play on words of Dhaniya's verses with different meaning. There are a total of 17 verses. I had presented ten verses. I will now continue with the rest. -------------------- 11. Dhaniya: "The stakes are dug-in, immovable. The new mu~nja-grass halters, well-woven, not even young bulls could break: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." 11. Khiilaa nikhaataa asampavedhii (iti dhaniyo gopo) Daamaa mu~njamayaa navaa susa.n.thaanaa, Na hi sakkhinti dhenupaapi chettu.m Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. -------------------- 12. The Buddha: "Having broken my bonds like a great bull, like a great elephant tearing a rotting vine, I never again will lie in the womb: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead & rain." 12. Usabhoriva chetva bandhanaani (iti bhagavaa) Naago puutilata.m va daalayitvaa, Naaha.m punupessa.m gabbhaseyya.m Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. -------------------- Dhaniya was boasting how he had done all measures and bondages so that his cattle could not go away. The Buddha was telling the opposite. Although Dhaniya had tied up his cattle with the ropes, a very strong leading bull or an elephant could break the type of ropes Dhaniya applied to his cattle. In the same manner, the Buddha has cut free all the kilesas and fetters or bondages that had bound him to the sa.msaara for all those aeons. Here, Sayadaw elaborated on the ten fetters (sa.myojana). He defined sa.myojana as “ satte anatthe sa.myojanti bandhanteti sa.myojanaa” = the dhammas that bind (sa.myojanti bandhanteti) the beings (satte), and that are un-profitable (na + attha) for the beings. Then Sayadaw explained about the ten fetters. The first five of these are called 'lower fetters' (orambhaagiya-sa.myojana), as they tie the beings to the sensuous world. The latter 5 are called 'higher fetters' (uddhambhaagiya-sa.myojana), as they tie the beings to the higher worlds, i.e. the fine-material and immaterial world. As one can easily find these fetters in the books, I will not repeat what Sayadaw said about them (unless someone wants me to elaborate). Because the Buddha had cut all the kilesas and the fetters, He would never be reborn again. Here, I like the Pali words that the Buddha spoke: Naaha.m + punupessa.m + gabbhaseyya.m = I never + again will lie + in the womb. At this point, Sayadaw U Nyanissara reminded the audience that if they could not cut the ten fetters like the Buddha had done, they would remain in bondage in the sa.msaara with pariyutthana-kilesa, anusaya-kilesa, ta.nhaa, abhisa"nkhaara cetanaa, and abhisa"nkhaara vi~n~naa.na [and other kilesas], like the five kinds of cattle that remained in bondage in Dhaniya's cattle shed. To be continued. With metta, Han #104598 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject ptaus1 Dear Sarah, > S: yes, and I think this (taking the arupa jhana object for nibbana) was exactly the view that was prevalent among those who were able to attain arupa jhanas - mistaking the attainments for nibbana. Thanks, such interpretation makes sense to me. When it comes to the issue of unconditioned space, I'm still a bit intrigued by apparent lack of sources that actually say clearly that space is unconditioned. So far, from UP and the sources you list in #88905, to me only Milinda panha seems to say so more or less. The next best source is from Atthasalini (The Expositor' II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 326,), but it is much more ambiguous and open to interpretation. I would think that if space was unconditioned, it would have been clearly enumerated somewhere as such, just like all the other rupas and namas. Perhaps that was implied by the usage of a specific Pali term - as you mention - "an-antaakaasa, not pariccheda aakaasa". So perhaps it's just a matter of going through Pali in all the sources and comparing what Pali term is actually used for "space" in a particular case... Best wishes pt #104599 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:54 am Subject: Re: Life szmicio Dear Nina, Sarah, Vincent, Ken O, Han and all There is continuation of the explanation of paticcasamupada, that the Blessed One made with such great compassion to all of us. Next to the reality of samatha, of cultivation of compassion and good life, there is another reality, reality of 4 Noble Truths, that we all needs to understand in order to end samsara.(the arising and falling away of things). ----------- Tattha katama.m sa"nkhaarapaccayaa vi~n~naa.na.m? Cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m, sotavi~n~naa.na.m, ghaanavi~n~naa.na.m, jivhaavi~n~naa.na.m, kaayavi~n~naa.na.m, manovi~n~naa.na.m ida.m vuccati 'sa"nkhaarapaccayaa vi~n~naa.na.m'. ----------- L: There was a sutta in majjhima nikaya, that explains that when we hear unpleasant words(vipaka), that is because of our past deeds(kamma). After reading this sutta, the kusala reflection can arise in savaka(person, listener) and then the mind starts to apply vipaka and kamma now. First it's not direct consideration of kamma and vipkaa, but this is made with yonisomanasikara. Like hearing bad words,and the thought comes to you: "just vipaka that arises because of past activity, sankara that was conditioned just by moha. misery. big misery" And anger to the person that said bad words becomes lesser. I think, this is sacca ~nana consideration of 4 Noble Truths, and when we consider and listening more and more, then in the end the sacca ~nana became more stronger and will condition kicca and kata ~nana. This is out of control. The samsara is out of control. There is no person in paticcasamupada. So sankharapaccaya vinnanaa.m. That is what can be known directly. Best wishes Lukas