#104600 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 4. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 22-jan-2010, om 17:33 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > So if there was present first insight, namaruupaparicheda ~nana > then 3 rounds were understood? ------ N: That stage is still very weak. It is hard to pinpoint which rounds are understood, but it is all just beginning. -------- no 4: The ceasing of dukkha, namely nibbaana, is the third noble truth. Also with regard to the third noble truth there are three phases: understanding what the ceasing of dukkha is, sacca ~naa.na. Understanding of the task that has to be performed, the realization of nibbaana, kicca ~naa.na. Understanding of the task which has been performed, the realization of nibbaana, kata ~naa.na. We may begin to know when craving arises in daily life and see more the disadvantage of akusala. We can come to understand that nibbaana is the end of craving and of all defilements, even when we do not know this yet through direct experience. Kicca ~naa.na begins when awareness and right understanding is developed of all realities appearing through the six doors. This is the only way eventually to realize the cessation of dukkha. --------- Text: This is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering': thus, monks, in regard to teachings not heard by me before, insight, knowledge, wisdom, revelation, and illumination arose. 'Now this noble truth of the cessation of suffering ought to be realized': thus, monks, in regard to teachings not heard by me before, insight, knowledge, wisdom, revelation, and illumination arose. 'Now this noble truth of the cessation of suffering has been realized': thus, monks, in regard to teachings not heard by me before, insight, knowledge, wisdom, revelation, and illumination arose. -------------- We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, First Fifty, Ch III, 23-26) about the realities that should be understood in order to reach the goal. The sutta speaks about the all, and this is the eye and visible object, the ear and sound, the nose and odour, the tongue and flavour, the body and tangible object, the mind and the objects that can be experienced through the mind. We read in 25: I will teach you the Dhamma, monks, for the abandoning of the all, by fully knowing, by comprehending it. Do you listen to it. And what, monks, is the dhamma which leads to the abandoing of the all, by fully knowing, by comprehending it? The eyes, monks, must be abandoned by fully knowing, by comprehending it. Visible object... eye-consciousness...eye-contact... the pleasant, unpleasant or indifferent feeling arising because of eye- contact must be abandoned by fully knowing, by comprehending it.... The same is said with regard to the other senses and the mind. There cannot be the ceasing of dukkha without fully knowing, without comprehending the all, without abandoning it. By fully knowing the all there will be complete detachment from it and then there will be the ceasing of dukkha. The development of vipassana goes together with detachment, it leads to detachment. In the course of the stages of vipassana~naa.na there is more detachment from conditioned realities and a turning towards the unconditioned reality, nibbaana. There is a growing understanding of what the ceasing of dukkha, nibbaana, means. At enlightenment of the stage of the sotapanna the four noble Truths are penetrated, but the task is only fully completed at the attainment of arahatship. ****** Nina. #104601 From: sīlānanda Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:58 am Subject: Mindfulness of Breathing ... by Pa Auk Sayadaw silananda_t Hi Dhammafarers, Just published for you: Mindfulness of Breathing (Ānāpānasati) by Pa Auk Sayadaw mahakaruna ~silananda more: *Dhamma Quotes & Guides to a Handful of Leaves* #104602 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:00 am Subject: Re: Dhaniya Sutta (3) sarahprocter... Dear Han, I'd just like to repeat that I'm finding your series fascinating. I really appreciate your comprehensive presentation, the Pali, the notes and all the extra comments by the Sayadaw, the footnotes etc. [If anyone missed the first four installments, they can be found at these post #: #104411, 104424, 104450, 104472] Many thanks and anumodana. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: <...> > Sayadaw U Nyanissara said that while the Buddha had already crossed over the four oghas, Dhaniya was still swimming in these four oghas. His attachment to his family and to his cattle was kaamogha. His attachment to his life was bhavogha. The thought that his possessions would be permanent was di.t.thogha. Not knowing all these things was avijjogha. #104603 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:05 pm Subject: Re: Life - paticcasamupada and anapanasati szmicio Dear friends, Here is a quote on realization of paticcasamupada after explaining anapanasati object. This is from book given by Bhante Silananda, Mindfulness of Breathing by Pa Auk Sayadaw(very good book). ============================== Best wishes Lukas #104604 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:20 pm Subject: Re: Dhaniya Sutta (3) szmicio Dear Sarah and Han, I feel exactly the same. So helpful series, that Han made. Sarah I dont know you remember, when I had doubts and looking for some better conditions to life and practice,you gave me a quote from Dhaniya Sutta. The Buddha: "Free from anger, my stubbornness gone, [Note 2] I live for one night along the banks of the Mahi; my hut's roof is open, my fire out: [Note 3] so if you want, rain-god, go ahead and rain." Han, I always enjoyng your Sayadows comments. Very wise persons. I am gonna to save your whole series on my disk. I hope your health is good. My best wishes Lukas > I'd just like to repeat that I'm finding your series fascinating. I really appreciate your comprehensive presentation, the Pali, the notes and all the extra comments by the Sayadaw, the footnotes etc. > > [If anyone missed the first four installments, they can be found at these post #: > > #104411, 104424, 104450, 104472] > > Many thanks and anumodana. > > Metta > > Sarah > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > <...> > > Sayadaw U Nyanissara said that while the Buddha had already crossed over the four oghas, Dhaniya was still swimming in these four oghas. His attachment to his family and to his cattle was kaamogha. His attachment to his life was bhavogha. The thought that his possessions would be permanent was di.t.thogha. Not knowing all these things was avijjogha. > #104605 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear Dieter "What now, o monks, is right effort? If the disciple rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, demeritorious things that have not yet arisen; ... if he rouses his will to overcome the evil, demeritorious things that have already arisen; ... if he rouses his will to produce meritorious things that have not yet arisen; ... if he rouses his will to maintain the meritorious things that have already arisen and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development; he thus makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives (s. padhana). quoted from MN 44 <> - is latency of aksuala <> - is accumulation of kusala, that conditions kusala cittas With the arisen of panna, panna will overcome the evil demeritorious things. With the arisen of panna, panna will maintain kusala and condition more kusala to grow. Only panna could eradicate akusala. With the arisen of panna, one understand the merit of the benefit of the teachings. With this right understanding, confidence of the teaching arise, and when energy arise, striving arise. Development of the path is only possible with the arisen of panna. And panna arise with the right understanding that all dhamma are anatta, there is no "he" or "I". It is impossible for panna to arise together with a "self" view. Cheers Ken O #104606 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Alex) - In a message dated 1/22/2010 10:09:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Alex Riding bicycle is full of self. Dhamma is not self. When there is a self, there is miccha ditthi, and when this arise, there is no panna. Without panna there is no eradication of akusala thanks Ken O ================================= Ken, until we are arahants, and especially while not yet ariyans, we are ALL full of "self." We do not begin free of sense of self. If we did, we would already be arahants. And one more point, Ken: Doing something intentionally and doing it in a self-dominated fashion are not the same thing. An arahant can (and does) do things intentionally. The Buddha, for example, was not a robot. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104607 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 ashkenn2k Dear Howard >============ ========= ========= === >Ken, until we are arahants, and especially while not yet ariyans, we >are ALL full of "self." We do not begin free of sense of self. If we did, we >would already be arahants. >And one more point, Ken: Doing something intentionally and doing it in >a self-dominated fashion are not the same thing. An arahant can (and does) >do things intentionally. The Buddha, for example, was not a robot. KO: Can self arise with panna. If that is possible, then one could said I develop. Arisen of self is induce by miccha ditthi, further inducement of miccha ditthi only make latency to growth and not eradication of panna. Doing something intentionally is not a self dominated fastion? Could we intentionally dont wish to listen when there is sound impinge, it is not possible. That example of riding bicycle is based on a self view. I want to know how to ride bicycle is like I want to have more attainment or more panna is full of self view. Cheers Ken O #104608 From: han tun Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhaniya Sutta (3) hantun1 Dear Sarah and Lukas, > Sarah: I'd just like to repeat that I'm finding your series fascinating. I really appreciate your comprehensive presentation, the Pali, the notes and all the extra comments by the Sayadaw, the footnotes etc. [If anyone missed the first four installments, they can be found at these post #: #104411, 104424, 104450, 104472] Many thanks and anumodana. Metta, Sarah ---------- > Lukas: I feel exactly the same. So helpful series, that Han made. Sarah I dont know you remember, when I had doubts and looking for some better conditions to life and practice,you gave me a quote from Dhaniya Sutta. The Buddha: "Free from anger, my stubbornness gone, [Note 2] I live for one night along the banks of the Mahi; my hut's roof is open, my fire out: [Note 3] so if you want, rain-god, go ahead and rain." Han, I always enjoyng your Sayadows comments. Very wise persons. I am gonna to save your whole series on my disk. I hope your health is good. My best wishes, Lukas ---------- Han: I thank both of you very much. It is very encouraging for me. My health is alright, except for general weakness due to old age. With metta and respect, Han #104609 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Life - paticcasamupada and anapanasati nilovg Dear Lukas and Vince, Op 23-jan-2010, om 13:05 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > When one has discerned the relationship between causes and results > in this way, one will have attained the The Knowledge of > Apprehending the Condition (Paccayapariggahanana).> -------- N: Visuddhimagga XIX, 26, 27, and then one is a lesser sotaapanna. quote: 26: < For this is said: 'Understanding of discernment of conditions thus "Ignorance is a condition, formations are conditionally arisen, and both these states are conditionally arisen is knowledge of the causal relationship of states ..."> It is explained that doubt is overcome. But before that one has to be aware over and over again of all dhammas occurring in daily life, as they appear one at a time through the six doors. No confusion about the difference between seeing and visible object, hearing and sound. That is why it is necessary to have a clear understanding intellectually of all these dhammas that are anattaa. Developing understanding is not self and this must be clear from the beginning. We have to consider and discuss all the naamas and ruupas that occur now and can be objects of right understanding. A basic knowledge is indispensable. ---------- Nina. #104610 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:11 pm Subject: Realities and Concepts - Part 2 No 5 ashkenn2k Dear friends Question: Can a concept be an object of satipahna? S: It cannot. Question: From what I heard just a moment ago it seems that a concept can be the object of satipahna . S.: Only paramattha dhammas can be the object of satipahna. When flavour impinges on the rpa which is tastingsense, there are conditions for the arising of cittas which experience flavour through the tongue-door. First there is the five-door adverting-consciousness and then there are tasting-consciousness, receivingconsciousness, investigating-consciouness, determiningconsciousness, the javana-cittas and the tadlambanacittas (registering or retention). Then the flavour falls away and thus there is no grape in the absolute sense. However, when one joins different realities together into a whole, such as a grape, then the object is a concept. Satipahana is developed when there is awareness of the characteristics of paramattha dhammas and they are realized as not a being, a person or self. When sati does not arise the characteristics of paramattha dhammas cannot be discerned, only concepts are known. Then there is all the time the idea of beings, people and self Q: You said that concepts can be known through the mind-door. Therefore I am inclined to think that if there is awareness through the mind-door concepts can be the object of satipahna. S.: In order to have more understanding of satipahna we should begin with this very moment. Is there a concept while you hear sound now? Sound is a paramattha dhamma. When citta knows the meaning of the sounds it knows a concept and it knows this through the mind-door. Citta thinks about different words. Sati can follow and be aware of that citta, so that it can be realized as just a type of citta which thinks of words. to be continued Ken O #104611 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:15 pm Subject: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 14 ashkenn2k Dear all Bhikkhu: I have a question on satipaììhåna. I have read that among the twentyeight rúpas, there are rúpas which cannot be seen, rúpas which cannot impinge, subtle rúpas, rúpas which are far, and so on. Could you explain about this? S. : There is only one rúpa among the twentyeight rúpas which can be seen, and that is visible object which appears through the eyesense. Visible object can be seen and it is among the rúpas which impinge or contact (sappaìigha rúpas 5). There are other impinging rúpas: the sense objects, apart from visible object, which are sound, odour, flavour and tangible object, consisting of solidity (appearing as hardness or softness), temperature (appearing as heat or cold) and motion (appearing as motion or pressure). Furthermore, there are the senses which can be contacted or impinged on, namely, eyesense, earsense, smellingsense, tastingsense and bodysense. These eleven rúpas can impinge or can be impinged on, but they cannot be seen, whereas visible object can impinge and can be seen 6. The twelve impinging rúpas are coarse rúpas. They are also called rúpas which are “near”, because they can be investigated and known. The sixteen other rúpas among the twentyeight rúpas are the subtle rúpas. They cannot be seen nor are they impinging. Subtle rúpas are “far”, they cannot easily be discerned. The Buddha explained about dhammas, realities, and people who develop satipaììhåna can verify them; they can know the characteristics of the dhammas which naturally appear, just as they are. However, the Dhamma is subtle and deep. For example, when a person learns that visible object is the reality appearing through the eyes, he may think that it is not difficult to understand this. But theoretical understanding is not the same as understanding of the characteristic of seeing when he sees. If he does not develop satipaììhåna so that paññå becomes keener, he cannot realize the characteristics of nåma and rúpa as they are. When one sees, visible object is experienced through the eyes, but what one sees one takes for people, beings and different things. Then doubt arises and people wonder what visible object is like, what characteristic it has. Visible object is the reality which appears when our eyes are open and there is seeing, not yet thinking about anything. Then the characteristic of visible object can appear naturally, as it is. As paññå develops, one can become familiar with the fact that visible object which appears is not a being, person, self, or anything else. Visible object is only the reality which appears through the eyes, that is its true nature. If people are not inclined to study and investigate the characteristic of visible object, it will be impossible for them to let go of the clinging to the idea they always had of seeing, namely, seeing people, beings or different things. to be continued Ken O #104612 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Life - paticcasamupada and anapanasati szmicio Dear Nina > > When one has discerned the relationship between causes and results > > in this way, one will have attained the The Knowledge of > > Apprehending the Condition (Paccayapariggahanana).> > -------- > N: Visuddhimagga XIX, 26, 27, and then one is a lesser sotaapanna. > > quote: 26: < For this is said: 'Understanding of discernment of > conditions thus "Ignorance is a condition, formations are > conditionally arisen, and both these states are conditionally arisen > is knowledge of the causal relationship of states ..."> L: So this is paccaya and paccayaupana dhamma here? > It is explained that doubt is overcome. > knowledge, he has found comfort in the Buddha's dispensation, he has > found a foothold, he is certain of his destiny, he is called a > 'Lesser Stream enterer'.> > But before that one has to be aware over and over again of all > dhammas occurring in daily life, as they appear one at a time through > the six doors. No confusion about the difference between seeing and > visible object, hearing and sound. That is why it is necessary to > have a clear understanding intellectually of all these dhammas that > are anattaa. Developing understanding is not self and this must be > clear from the beginning. L: Yes, I agree. This is like the sacca ~nana, that grows by itself. No Self. Best wishes Lukas #104613 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:19 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Jon (Sarah, Howard ..) you wrote: (D: Wouldn't you agree that the development of mindfulness/awareness and basing on that of insight/panna needs right effort as explained by the sixth step? ) > =============== Yes, I agree that the development of the path requires both insight/panna (the factor of samma-ditthi) and right effort (the factor of samma-vayama). In fact, as I think you know already, it's my understanding that the development of insight requires the co-arising of the various path factors (minimum of 5). So then the question is, What is that right effort? Ven. Nyanatiloka refers the reader to his entry on 'padhaana' ('effort'). There is given the description from A. IV. 14. For example, as regards the first of the 4 right efforts (the effort to avoid the arising of evil, demeritorious things that have not yet arisen), the sutta says: (1) "What now, o monks, is the effort to avoid? Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise, such as greed and sorrow, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses. This is called the effort to avoid." The crucial part of that passage, in my view, is the following: "Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts." This is a description of the arising of kusala consciousness of the level of satipatthana. No adherence to the form or detail (anubhyancana). Likewise, the (indirect) reference to the senses being guarded is also a reference to awareness of the level of satipatthana. It cannot, in my view, be a reference to conventional directed effort, since such effort always lags behind the moment of consciousness to which it is directed.' D: the Ven. stated before quoting the details of A.IV.14 : padhāna: 'effort.' The 4 right efforts (samma-padhāna), forming the 6th stage of the 8-fold Path (i.e. sammā-vāyāma, s. magga) are: (1) the effort to avoid (saṃvara-padhāna), (2) to overcome (pahāna-padhāna), (3) to develop (bhāvanā-padhāna), (4) to maintain (anurakkhaṇa-padhāna), i.e. (1) the effort to avoid unwholesome (akusala) states, such as evil thoughts, etc. (2) to overcome unwholesome states, (3) to develop wholesome (kusala) states, such as the 7 elements of enlightenment (bojjhaṅga, q.v.), (4) to maintain the wholesome states. "The monk rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, unwholesome things not yet arisen ... to overcome them ... to develop wholesome things not yet arisen ... to maintain them, and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives" (A. IV, 13). unquote hence crucial in general is: ..rouses his will , he makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives. I am not sure what you mean by 'conventional directed effort ', but assume it is identical with above. And yes, it lags behind the moment of consciousness .. because being the nutriment of right mindfulness. Bhikkhu Bodhi writes in his anthology of the sacca , conc. right effort ( http://www.vipassana.com/resources/8fp5.php ) 'Time and again the Buddha has stressed the need for effort, for diligence, exertion, and unflagging perseverance. The reason why effort is so crucial is that each person has to work out his or her own deliverance. The Buddha does what he can by pointing out the path to liberation; the rest involves putting the path into practice, a task that demands energy. This energy is to be applied to the cultivation of the mind, which forms the focus of the entire path. The starting point is the defiled mind, afflicted and deluded; the goal is the liberated mind, purified and illuminated by wisdom. What comes in between is the unremitting effort to transform the defiled mind into the liberated mind. The work of self-cultivation is not easy -- there is no one who can do it for us but ourselves -- but it is not impossible.' The starting point is our more or less defiled mind ..! with Metta Dieter #104614 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:07 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Dear Ken O, you wrote: 'With the arisen of panna, one understand the merit of the benefit of the teachings. With this right understanding, confidence of the teaching arise, and when energy arise, striving arise. Development of the path is only possible with the arisen of panna. And panna arise with the right understanding that all dhamma are anatta, there is no "he" or "I". It is impossible for panna to arise together with a "self" view.' D: Ken, we need to work with our more or less developed/deluded state of wisdom ... As I understand you seem to presume what indeed has to be developed by the 3 fold Noble Path training: sila -samadhi -panna. The point of anatta is only fully realized by deep penetration , because it means (Khanda) detachment , finally only managed by the Arahant. Before it is belief of the intellect still waiting for real insight and it will be a (micca) ditthi , when one may conclude : as ultimately there is no I/self any intentional effort is fruitless..` Of interest here is what Ajahn Cha said in his speech ' The Path to Peace' in order that the 'wisdom faculty gradually matures' (excerpt, see http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed019.htm 'sila, samadhi and panna are the names given to the different aspects of the practice. When you practise sila, samadhi and panna, it means you practise with yourselves. Right sila exists here, right samadhi exists here. Why? Because your body is right here! You have hands, you have legs right here. This is where you practise sila. It's easy to reel off the list of wrong kinds of behaviour as found in the books, but the important thing to understand is that the potential for them all lies within us. Your body and speech are with you right here and now. You practise moral restraint, which means taking care to avoid the unskilful actions of killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. For instance, in the past you may have killed animals or insects by smashing them with an axe or a fist, or perhaps you didn't take much care with your speech: false speech means lying or exaggerating the truth; coarse speech means you are constantly being abusive or rude to others -'you scum,' 'you idiot,' and so on; frivolous speech means aimless chatter, foolishly rambling on without purpose or substance. We've indulged in it all. No restraint! In short, keeping sila means watching over yourself, watching over your actions and speech. So who will do the watching over? Who will take responsibility for your actions? Who is the one who knows before you lie, swear or say something frivolous? Contemplate this: whoever it is who knows is the one who has to take responsibility for your sila. Bring that awareness to watch over your actions and speech. That knowing, that awareness is what you use to watch over your practice. To keep sila, you use that part of the mind which directs your actions and which leads you to do good and bad. You catch the villain and transform him into a sheriff or a mayor. Take hold of the wayward mind and bring it to serve and take responsibility for all your actions and speech. Look at this and contemplate it. The Buddha taught us to take care with our actions. Who is it who does the taking care? The practice involves establishing sati, mindfulness, within this 'one who knows.' The 'one who knows' is that intention of mind which previously motivated us to kill living beings, steal other people's property, indulge in illicit sex, lie, slander, say foolish and frivolous things and engage in all the kinds of unrestrained behaviour. The 'one who knows' led us to speak. It exists within the mind. Focus your mindfulness (sati) - that constant recollectedness - on this 'one who knows.' Let the knowing look after your practice. Use sati or awareness to keep the mind recollecting in the present moment and maintain mental composure in this way. Make the mind look after itself. Do it well. If the mind is really able to look after itself, it is not so difficult to guard speech and actions, since they are all supervised by the mind.... etc. ' with Metta Dieter #104615 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (7) nilovg DEar Han, thank you very much. I like Sayadaw's good reminders. Only vipassanaa pa~n~naa that is fully developed up to the stages of enlightenment can cut the fetters. A long way to go, and not by 'me'. Nina. Op 23-jan-2010, om 4:19 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > At this point, Sayadaw U Nyanissara reminded the audience that if > they could not cut the ten fetters like the Buddha had done, they > would remain in bondage in the sa.msaara with pariyutthana-kilesa, > anusaya-kilesa, ta.nhaa, abhisa"nkhaara cetanaa, and abhisa"nkhaara > vi~n~naa.na [and other kilesas], like the five kinds of cattle that > remained in bondage in Dhaniya's cattle shed. #104616 From: han tun Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (7) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind comments. Nina: I like Sayadaw's good reminders. Only vipassanaa pa~n~naa that is fully developed up to the stages of enlightenment can cut the fetters. A long way to go, and not by 'me'. -------------------- Han: What Sayadaw said was an ideal situation. But I think you are at least (if not more) eligible for Cuu.la-Sotaapanna (Lesser Stream-Enterer). In Visuddhimagga, out of seven visuddhi, if you have developed the first four, you are eligible for Cuu.la-Sotaapanna. At the end of chapter XIX, it says: Iminaa pana ~naa.nena samannaagato vipassako Buddhasaasane laddhassaaso laddhapati.t.tho niyatagatiko cuu.lasotaapanno naama hoti. When a man practicing insight has become possessed of this knowledge, he has found comfort in the Buddhas' Dispensation, he has found a foothold, he is certain of his destiny, he is called a lesser stream-enterer. Han: To reach that stage, I think, in terms of the fetters, you need to abandon the first three, namely, (1) personality-belief (sakkaaya-di.t.thi) (2) sceptical doubt (vicikicchaa) and (3) clinging to mere rules and ritual (siilabbata-paraamaasa). Although only the Buddha can know a person's maturity, I think you have abandoned the first three fetters. For me, Cuu.la-Sotaapanna would be more than good enough. Respectfully, Han #104617 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:30 pm Subject: Re: Dhaniya Sutta (7) ksheri3 Hi han tun, Nina, Sarah, et al, ;) does Dhaniya = Dyana? Dyana being a Hindu and Theosophical concept and characterisation? Ohhh, you'd luv the ILLUMINATIONS that I'm experiencing now during this recent advernture into TANTRA. As I pressumed before I went into the meditation: everything will be refined into a simple list of emotional characteristics which the Abhidharma lists and defines. <....> Is CONSCIOUSNESS unfathomable? Is CONSCIOUSNESS imperceivable? Is CONSCIOUSNESS REAL? I'm having problems, at the moment, now, dealing with the contradictions that a single ALAYA VIJNANA can have a consciousness while being seperated from a single universal whole consciousness. I'm working through this abstraction by means of the INSTINCTS as given by C.G.Jung where I find the Abhidharma to be an uncomparable reference. The main focus is the simple question: does Dhaniya = Dyana? (maybe I mispelled that Theosophical term, if so then I will relate this back to you but you insights are still welcomed.) toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina, Sarah, and others, > > I am presenting Snp 1.2 Dhaniya Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and the explanations by Sayadaw U Nyanissara. It is about the dialogue between Dhaniya, a wealthy cattle owner, and the Buddha. Dhaniya lived at the time when the Buddha was staying at Saavatthi. It was the monsoon season, just before the onset of rain. He had built strong shelters for himself, his family and for the cattle on the bank of the River Mahi. The Buddha, however, knew that this family was in danger of being overwhelmed by the flood, and also knew that Dhaniya was ready to take in His teachings and attain spiritual attainment. So by His supernormal powers, He appeared outside of Dhaniya's shelter, at the tree top level. <...> #104618 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:59 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau Hi Dieter, I know I have said this many times before, but here it is again.:-) Please observe the similarities between conventional Buddhism (as illustrated in this case by Ajahn Cha) and the self-help industry that is currently booming in the western world. So many high-sounding words that promise everything and deliver nothing! Honestly, Dieter, when you read A. Cha's lecture, what does it tell you that you didn't already know? The honest answer is 'nothing' isn't it? Just words! Conventional religions and self-help industries use empty, high-sounding words to give their target audiences a brief hit of hope. They offer the dream of becoming a better person - or a more enlightened person. The brief hit of hope inevitably ends in disappointment and self recrimination, but the audience is addicted, and so they keep coming back for more. It's the oldest trick in the book, and it has kept conventional religions going for thousands of years. I'll stop there because I know I am wasting my breath, but . . . I had to say something. :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > > Of interest here is what Ajahn Cha said in his speech ' The Path to Peace' in order that the 'wisdom faculty gradually matures' > (excerpt, see http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed019.htm > > 'sila, samadhi and panna are the names given to the different aspects of the practice. When you practise sila, samadhi and panna, it means you practise with yourselves. Right sila exists here, right samadhi exists here. Why? Because your body is right here! You have hands, you have legs right here. This is where you practise sila. It's easy to reel off the list of wrong kinds of behaviour as found in the books, but the important thing to understand is that the potential for them all lies within us. Your body and speech are with you right here and now. You practise moral restraint, which means taking care to avoid the unskilful actions of killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. For instance, in the past you may have killed animals or insects by smashing them with an axe or a fist, or perhaps you didn't take much care with your speech: false speech means lying or exaggerating the truth; coarse speech means you are constantly being abusive or rude to others -'you scum,' 'you idiot,' and so on; frivolous speech means aimless chatter, foolishly rambling on without purpose or substance. We've indulged in it all. No restraint! In short, keeping sila means watching over yourself, watching over your actions and speech. > So who will do the watching over? Who will take responsibility for your actions? Who is the one who knows before you lie, swear or say something frivolous? Contemplate this: whoever it is who knows is the one who has to take responsibility for your sila. Bring that awareness to watch over your actions and speech. That knowing, that awareness is what you use to watch over your practice. To keep sila, you use that part of the mind which directs your actions and which leads you to do good and bad. You catch the villain and transform him into a sheriff or a mayor. Take hold of the wayward mind and bring it to serve and take responsibility for all your actions and speech. Look at this and contemplate it. The Buddha taught us to take care with our actions. Who is it who does the taking care? The practice involves establishing sati, mindfulness, within this 'one who knows.' The 'one who knows' is that intention of mind which previously motivated us to kill living beings, steal other people's property, indulge in illicit sex, lie, slander, say foolish and frivolous things and engage in all the kinds of unrestrained behaviour. The 'one who knows' led us to speak. It exists within the mind. Focus your mindfulness (sati) - that constant recollectedness - on this 'one who knows.' Let the knowing look after your practice. Use sati or awareness to keep the mind recollecting in the present moment and maintain mental composure in this way. Make the mind look after itself. Do it well. If the mind is really able to look after itself, it is not so difficult to guard speech and actions, since they are all supervised by the mind.... etc. ' #104619 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear Dieter > >From: Dieter Moeller >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Sunday, 24 January 2010 3:07:34 >Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary > > >Dear Ken O, > >you wrote: > >'With the arisen of panna, one understand the merit of the benefit of the teachings. With this right understanding, confidence of the teaching arise, and when energy arise, striving arise. Development of the path is only possible with the arisen of panna. And panna arise with the right understanding that all dhamma are anatta, there is no "he" or "I". It is impossible for panna to arise together with a "self" view.' > >D: Ken, we need to work with our more or less developed/deluded state of wisdom ... >As I understand you seem to presume what indeed has to be developed by the 3 fold Noble Path training: sila -samadhi -panna. >The point of anatta is only fully realized by deep penetration , because it means (Khanda) detachment , finally only managed by the Arahant. >Before it is belief of the intellect still waiting for real insight and it will be a (micca) ditthi , when one may conclude : as ultimately there is no I/self >any intentional effort is fruitless..` KO: All dhamma are not self, that is spoken by the Buddha. The difference between an Arahant and us is they have understood it, while us due to our ignorance, it has blinded us from seeing it. It is the natural characteristic of dhamma. Hence there is no need to do any intentional effort. The arisen of seeing is a natural phenomena. Do you need to intentional see to see? The learning of the path, the guarding, the restrain, the protection is only possible when panna arise. That is call effort, the understanding of sense citta as it arise. No special effort to it because effort arise naturally with each citta. Effort could be kusala and akusala. With arising of panna, effort is definitely kusala. > >Of interest here is what Ajahn Cha said in his speech ' The Path to Peace' in order that the 'wisdom faculty gradually matures' >(excerpt, see http://www.buddhane t.net/budsas/ ebud/ebmed019. htm > >'sila, samadhi and panna are the names given to the different aspects of the practice. When you practise sila, samadhi and panna, it means you practise with yourselves. Right sila exists here, right samadhi exists here. Why? Because your body is right here! You have hands, you have legs right here. This is where you practise sila. It's easy to reel off the list of wrong kinds of behaviour as found in the books, but the important thing to understand is that the potential for them all lies within us. Your body and speech are with you right here and now. You practise moral restraint, which means taking care to avoid the unskilful actions of killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. For instance, in the past you may have killed animals or insects by smashing them with an axe or a fist, or perhaps you didn't take much care with your speech: false speech means lying or exaggerating the truth; coarse speech means you are constantly being abusive or rude to others -'you scum,' 'you idiot,' and so on; frivolous speech means aimless chatter, foolishly rambling on without purpose or substance. We've indulged in it all. No restraint! In short, keeping sila means watching over yourself, watching over your actions and speech. >So who will do the watching over? Who will take responsibility for your actions? Who is the one who knows before you lie, swear or say something frivolous? Contemplate this: whoever it is who knows is the one who has to take responsibility for your sila. Bring that awareness to watch over your actions and speech. That knowing, that awareness is what you use to watch over your practice. To keep sila, you use that part of the mind which directs your actions and which leads you to do good and bad. You catch the villain and transform him into a sheriff or a mayor. Take hold of the wayward mind and bring it to serve and take responsibility for all your actions and speech. Look at this and contemplate it. The Buddha taught us to take care with our actions. Who is it who does the taking care? The practice involves establishing sati, mindfulness, within this 'one who knows.' The 'one who knows' is that intention of mind which previously motivated us to kill living beings, steal other people's property, indulge in illicit sex, lie, slander, say foolish and frivolous things and engage in all the kinds of unrestrained behaviour. The 'one who knows' led us to speak. It exists within the mind. Focus your mindfulness (sati) - that constant recollectedness - on this 'one who knows.' Let the knowing look after your practice. Use sati or awareness to keep the mind recollecting in the present moment and maintain mental composure in this way. Make the mind look after itself. Do it well. If the mind is really able to look after itself, it is not so difficult to guard speech and actions, since they are all supervised by the mind.... etc. ' KO: That is only one word to describe all his statement "Panna". With the arisen of panna, akusala citta could not arise and at the same time latency being eradicated. When there is no arisen of aksuala, there would be no aksuala behaviour like killing, stealing, false speech at that moment. Mindfulness only guards the mind, it does not understand the meaning of anatta. Only panna understand the meaning of anatta. When one doe not realise it all boils down to panna, one keep using many words to describe what is mindfulness and what is kusala. When one realise it is all depends on panna, then the mind is not distracted with other things, it is concentrated on an interest to strive to develop panna, it has faith on the teachings, it has patience, and at the same time it wards away aksuala behaviour like lobha, conceit etc.. Cheers Ken O #104620 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:43 pm Subject: Fake I-dentification! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Narcissism versus the Bliss of Impersonality: The notion of 'I Am' is a false assumption based on a longstanding conceit! The notion of 'Mine' is a false assumption based on a deep, deep craving! The notion of 'This is My Self' is a false assumption based on wrong view! The mentally constructed idea of an internally existing, invisible yet stable, same and independent entity of identity, being in full control and mastering the individual, is rooted in an inflated false experience of self-importance! This fabricated 'Ego' assuming an imaginary 'Self' rapidly becomes deeply and tragically in love with itself... This 'auto-romance', even though merely a hypothetical ideation, nevertheless demands to be gratified, praised and respected without end, & therefore reacts violently towards any external or internal threats against its postulated unique yet fictional magnificence! The root of all EGOISM therefore starts right there when this conceptual notion of 'I-Me-Mine-Myself-My-Identity-My-Personality' is born...!!! The effects are well known as being wholly catastrophic both individually socially, locally and globally, here and now, later and in much later lives... They assumed existence of an Ego is thus the biggest invisible obstruction and the worst covered calamity for any being in any world, whether divine or human, whether high or low, whether past, present or in any far future... Basically is this Self-belief based on an assumption that either is the body, the feelings, the perceptions, the mental constructions, or consciousness itself an 'embodiment' of an otherwise invisible and unobservable 'Self'.. This 'representational' ego entity is then exalted to be the center of the universe... However, this self 'imaging' is merely a manifestation of simple identification with and clinging to body form, social position, professional occupation, and so called 'personal' possessions, which all are transient... Such is this highly treacherous, dangerous, & tragic mental ego-projection. Always gratifying an 'ego-me-self' that simply does not exist! The primary self-deception is "I Am..." Then comes the fermentation "I Am this and/or that..." Finally is added "I Am better, worse, or equal to this & that!" Yet this "I", that is assumed to be this or that, is not itself... Selflessness versus overblown "I-am-Superior" Egoism! The Blessed Buddha said: From everywhere, above as below, set free & released, beyond the concept of I am this or that, one has then crossed a river never crossed before... Thus liberated, does one not renew any cyclic process of being. Udana Inspiration: VII - 1 Blissful is solitude for one who is content, learned & who sees the Dhamma. More blissful is harmlessness towards all beings without any exception. Even more blissful is freedom from all sensual craving whatsoever... Yet, the supreme bliss, is the elimination of this abysmal conceit I am! Udana Inspiration: II 1 Sabbe Dhamma Anatta - All states are selfless... The Ego is alone in an unreal world fractured by hidden false assumptions! <..> Have a nice, noble & selfless day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104621 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:26 am Subject: Re: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta ptaus1 Dear Sarah, I was going through this topic in UP - "Stages of Insight 2 of Bodhisatta and disciples in previous lives". I was wondering if in the few years since this was discussed you've perhaps learned something new or changed your opinion? I mean, it seems interesting that you disagree with Ven.Dhammanando's conclusions, so I was also wondering wehther you had the chance to discuss this with him further over the years? I also get the feeling that the issue of cula sotapanna and it's applicability to bodhisattas wasn't resolved - i.e. I get the picture that Ven.Dhammanando had something to say on that point (asking you about it in #42602), but didn't as he probably didn't catch your response (#45763). Also, I'm not clear on the role of aspirations/vows in preventing the progress of insight beyond sankharupekha nana stage until the final life. In fact, if you find the time, perhaps you can say a bit how you understand aspirations and vows to work in case of all three kinds of buddhas - savakas, paccekas and sammasambuddhas. I.e. I get the picture that aspirations would have to do with chanda cetasika, while vows would have to do with adimokkha cetasika, but I'm not quite clear how to differentiate these in real-life. Thanks. Best wishes pt > S: Dear Kel, Ven Dhammanando, Nina & all, > > We had some very detailed discussions before on the topic of: prior > attainments and stagtes of insight of the Bodhisatta and chief disciples > in previous lives. In particular, we discussed whether they had previously > attained the 11th stage of sankharupekha nana [sa"nkaarupekkhaa-~naa.na - > knowledge of equanimity about conditioned dhammas], the last stage of > insight before anuloma nana (adaptation knowledge), which is followed by > gotrabhu nana (change of lineage) and then magga and phala nana (path and > fruition knowledge) in succession in the same mind door process.* > > You provided a lot of very helpful information and quotes from the Pali > texts in support of both the Bodhisatta and chief disciples having > formerly reached the stage of sankarupekkha nana. This was based on the > comments in various texts about insight being developed up to the stage of > anuloma.** > > After further consideration and lengthy discussion however, I'm still not > fully convinced of the conclusions you draw from these passages in the > light of other aspects of the teachings and other texts. > ... #104622 From: han tun Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:30 am Subject: Dhaniya Sutta (8) hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah, and others, I am presenting Snp 1.2 Dhaniya Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and the explanations by Sayadaw U Nyanissara. It is about the dialogue between Dhaniya, a wealthy cattle owner, and the Buddha. Dhaniya lived at the time when the Buddha was staying at Saavatthi. It was the monsoon season, just before the onset of rain. He had built strong shelters for himself, his family and for the cattle on the bank of the River Mahi. The Buddha, however, knew that this family was in danger of being overwhelmed by the flood, and also knew that Dhaniya was ready to take in His teachings and attain spiritual attainment. So by His supernormal powers, He appeared outside of Dhaniya's shelter, at the tree top level. While Dhaniya was rejoicing in the comfort and security, he uttered verses depicting his accomplishments and how he was prepared for the rain, and challenging the rain god to go ahead and rain. The Buddha also uttered verses that play on words of Dhaniya's verses with different meaning. There are a total of 17 verses. I had presented 12 verses. I will now continue with the rest. -------------------- 13. The great cloud rained down straightaway, filling the lowlands and high. Hearing the rain-god pour down, Dhaniya said: 13. Ninna~nca thala~nca puurayanto Mahaa-megho pavassi taavadeva, Sutvaa devassa vassato Imamattha.m dhaniyo abhaasatha. ---------- 14. "How great our gain that we've gazed on the Blessed One! We go to him, the One with vision, for refuge". 14.[Dhaniya said:] "Laabhaa vata no anappako Ye maya.m bhagavanta.m addasaama, Sara.na.m ta.m upema cakkhuma Satthaa no hohi tuva.m mahaa-muni". ---------- 15. May you be our teacher, Great Sage. My wife and I are compliant. Let's follow the holy life under the One Well-gone. Gone to the far shore of aging and death, let's put an end to suffering and stress." 15. Gopii ca aha~nca assavaa Brahmacariya.m sugate caraamase, Jaatimara.nassa paaraguu Dukkhassantakaraa bhavaamase. ---------- Han: Before going on to Verse (13), Sayadaw U Nyanissara brought up an interesting part of the story, which is not in the sutta but said to be in the Commentary. The Commentary says that up to this point, the Buddha's verses were on the Four Noble Truths. The ropes that tie up the cattle and the ten fetters that tie up the beings represent the Samudaya sacca. The way the cattle are suffering being tied up with the ropes, and the way the beings are tied up with the ten fetters and other kilesas represent the Dukkha sacca. The awareness of these two facts and the way a very strong bull or an elephant tries to break away from the ropes, and the way the beings try to cut the fetters with siila, samaadhi, and pa~n~naa represent the Magga sacca. The way a very strong bull or an elephant succeeds in breaking away from the bondage and gets his freedom, and the way the Buddha cuts all ten fetters and attains His final deliverance represent the Nirodha sacca. At this point, Dhaniya started thinking. Dhaniya had enough intelligence to realize that the person who was speaking to him from outside of his shelter could not be an ordinary person, because an ordinary person would not be able to speak those verses with very deep meaning. So he wondered whether the person could be the Buddha who came to teach them. The very moment he thought about the Buddha, the Buddha radiated his six coloured rays which lit up the entire area. By then, knowing for sure that it was the Buddha, Dhaniya and the family paid homage to the Buddha. The Commentary says that Dhaniya did not invite the Buddha to come inside his shelter. While still from outside, the Buddha delivered the 'graduated discourse' (aanupubbi-kathaa), consisting of (i) generosity (daana kathaa), (ii) virtue (siila kathaa), (iii) heaven (sagga kathaa), (iv) danger of sensual pleasure (kaamaana.m aadiinava kathaa), (v) renunciation (nekkhamma kathaa), and (vi) the Four Noble Truths (ariya-saccaa kathaa). At the end of the discourse, Dhaniya, his wife and two daughters became Sotaapannas. After the end of the discourse the rain came (Verse 13), but due to the presence of the Buddha, it was not heavy enough to wash away Dhaniya and his family and his cattle. The Buddha was said to be still there, outside of the shelter, but the rain did not wet the Buddha. Verses 14 and 15, describe how Dhaniya and his family gained very much by the opportunity to pay homage to the Buddha, how Dhaniya and his wife wished to follow the holy life under the Buddha, and how they requested the Buddha to be their Refuge and Teacher, so that they could cross over to the far shore, to the end of suffering and to the end of birth and death. But, there came the Maara! To be continued. With metta, Han #104623 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:37 am Subject: Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 14 szmicio Dear Ken 0, Very Helpful. Thank you. I am happy I have a wise friends that reminds me about realities. > Visible object is the reality which appears when our eyes are open and there is seeing, not yet thinking about anything. Then the characteristic of visible object can appear naturally, as it is. As paññå develops, one can become familiar with the fact that visible object which appears is not a being, person, self, or anything else. Visible object is only the reality which appears through the eyes, that is its true nature. If people are not inclined to study and investigate the characteristic of visible object, it will be impossible for them to let go of the clinging to the idea they always had of seeing, namely, seeing people, beings or different things. L: I have a thought on this. We usually think how to get this understanding. But in reality we cannot get it. Vincent(?) said recently without Self no further development of understanding cause no one can develop it. But I think the only moments of development are in moments when there is no Self. So I think listen and hear more. And this naturally leads to development. First there needs to be sacca ~nana, that is reflection made on 4 Noble Truths. This is samma-ditthi of the intelectual level. The development cannot be noticed. Really. Long long way. Best wishes Lukas #104624 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:13 am Subject: Paticcasamupadda continuation szmicio Dear friends, Here there is continuation of explanation of patticasamupadda, according to discourses. <228. Tattha katama.m vi~n~naa.napaccayaa naamaruupa.m? Atthi naama.m, atthi ruupa.m. Tattha katama.m naama.m? Vedanaakkhandho, sa~n~naakkhandho, sa"nkhaarakkhandho – ida.m vuccati ‘‘naama.m’’ . Tattha katama.m ruupa.m? Cattaaro mahaabhuutaa, catunna~nca mahaabhuutaana.m upaadaaya ruupa.m – ida.m vuccati ‘‘ruupa.m’’. Iti ida~nca naama.m, ida~nca ruupa.m. Ida.m vuccati ‘‘vi~n~naa.napaccayaa naamaruupa.m’’.> =============================== L: nama ruupa is not idea of mind and matter. This is real. citta conditions nama and ruupa. cetasikas and ruupas. The eye does not belong to anyone. It is there because of ignorance. And we take it for ours. Best wishes Lukas #104625 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:45 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, The Path factor right thinking arises together with the Path factor right understanding. The object of the Path factor right thinking is an ultimate reality, the reality which appears at the present moment. In the beginning there will be doubt whether the reality appearing at the present moment is a physical reality, such as visible object, or a mental reality, such as seeing. When right understanding is only beginning to develop there is not yet precise understanding of the difference between the characteristics of these realities. The function of the Path factor right thinking is touching the reality appearing at the present moment so that right understanding can investigate its characteristic. In that way precise understanding of that object can be developed, until there is no more confusion between the characteristic of a mental reality and a physical reality. Right thinking assists right understanding to penetrate the true nature of realities: the nature of impermanence, dukkha and non- self. Thus we see that the Path factor of right thinking is essential for the development of understanding. There are three Path factors which are the factors of good moral conduct: right speech, right action and right livelihood. They have the function of abstaining from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. Wrong livelihood is wrong speech and wrong action committed for the sake of ones livelihood. When there are conditions for abstaining from these kinds of akusala kamma the factors of good moral conduct perform the function of abstention. They arise one at a time. When there is abstention from wrong action such as killing, there cannot be at the same time abstention from wrong speech. The development of right understanding will condition good moral conduct, but only after enlightenment has been attained good moral conduct becomes enduring. The person who has attained the first stage of enlightenment has no more conditions for the committing of akusala kamma which can produce an unhappy rebirth. Thus, right understanding of realities bears directly on ones moral conduct in daily life. ******* Nina. #104626 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 14 nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 24-jan-2010, om 7:37 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > First there needs to be sacca ~nana, that is reflection made on 4 > Noble Truths. This is samma-ditthi of the intelectual level. -------- N:Sacca~naa.na is more than just reflection. Kh Sujin reminded us of the present moment, brings everything back to the present moment. Otherwise sacca~naa.na cannot be firm, the firm conviction of: this is the Path. As to sammaadi.t.thi, this refers to the Path , thus, it is not just intellectual understanding. Nina. #104627 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (7) nilovg Dear Han, Op 23-jan-2010, om 23:13 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > To reach that stage, I think, in terms of the fetters, you need to > abandon the first three, namely, (1) personality-belief (sakkaaya- > di.t.thi) (2) sceptical doubt (vicikicchaa) and (3) clinging to > mere rules and ritual (siilabbata-paraamaasa). Although only the > Buddha can know a person's maturity, I think you have abandoned the > first three fetters. For me, Cuu.la-Sotaapanna would be more than > good enough. ------ N: Only the sotaapanna has eradicated these three fetters. To become a lesser streamenterer is already very difficult: one has to have reached the second stage of tender insight. I would not claim that. Nina. #104628 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:32 am Subject: Re: Dhaniya Sutta (3) sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Han, Dinesh & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Sarah and Han, > I feel exactly the same. So helpful series, that Han made. > > Sarah I dont know you remember, when I had doubts and looking for some better conditions to life and practice,you gave me a quote from Dhaniya Sutta. > > The Buddha: > "Free from anger, my stubbornness gone, [Note 2] > I live for one night along the banks of the Mahi; > my hut's roof is open, my fire out: [Note 3] > so if you want, rain-god, go ahead and rain." .... S: yes, so many good reminders in this sutta and especially with the commentary elaborations. Like Dhaniya, usually we're so concerned about our "cattle" and all that is subject to birth, we forget entirely about the "open roof". In this connection, I also liked the sutta Dinesh quoted recently (#104271): "Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks[happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself toaging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] whatis likewise subject to illness... death.... sorrow... defilement. "And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who hastotally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth. "And what may be said to be subject toaging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children...men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants,cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to aging...illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness...death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search. "And what is the noble search? There is the case where a person, himself being subject to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeks the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Himself being subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeks the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, undefiled, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. This is the noble search. "I, too, monks, before my Awakening, when I was an un-awakened bodhisatta, being subject myself to birth, sought what was likewise subject to birth. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, I sought [happiness in] what was likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement. The thought occurred to me, 'Why do I, being subject myself to birth, seek what is likewise subject to birth? Being subject myself to aging.... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, why do I seek what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement? What if I, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, were to seek the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding? What if I, being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, were to seek the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less,, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding?' - Ariyapariyesana Sutta ***** S: Lukas, appreciating your great reminders and many contributions again:-). Metta Sarah ======= #104629 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the relationship between 1. Sankhara sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (& Lukas) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >>That's nice to hear that. It's very important to spend some time a day with the Buddha words. But sometimes condition dont allow us. > > KO: Sorry no disrespect, it is not conditions don't allow us. It is we do not understand conditions when it arise. Even in a busy day, there are always conditions to understand reality. ... S: yes, good point - when (by conditions!!), there is an understanding of reality, the Buddha's words are very close. ... > > >I think sacca nana is something that develops very slowly. > > KO: One citta at a time by AS is a true marvel, she reminds us that one citta is the natural order of dhammas describe in the texts. All existence is just on that one citta, one moment. We are so used to a self, future, etc. Understand it, then one will not think about whether understanding develops very slowly or not, or about the future. Because future is also one citta at a time. A bit unrealistic for layman, but if you could understand as it arise, it is a very enlightening statement. Next rebirth is also just one citta away. That is why the parami for determination for bodhisatta is so strong because it is base on this understanding, one citta at a time and not base on lives or kalpas of development. Concept of self will slowly diminish because it is one citta, when one hear abusive words, there arise anger. It is one citta of anger at a time and one realise there is no self that is angry which we are so used to > it, It is just aversion cetasika and citta. Where is there I that is angry? .... S: Very well said. Metta Sarah ====== #104630 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:43 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (317, 16) and commentary. Part 2. nilovg Dear friends, Sutta 16, part 2. Last time we dealt with faith, saddhaa, as a factor of endeavour. It has to be unshakable, thus, of an ariyan. The other four factors are: b. good health; c. sincerity; d. keeping energy constantly stirred for the abandoning of akusala, for the arousing of kusala; e. being endowed with wisdom. ----------- b. As to good health, this is according to the co. the absence of disease, of distress and suffering. As to the passage about digestion that is neither too cool nor too hot but of a middling temperature suitable for exertion, this is dependent on the element of heat, originating from kamma (kammaja-tejodhaatu). The subco: mentions that by the disturbance of the bile and humours, sickness occurs. c. As to sincerity, he shows himself (to his teacher) as he really is, also in the case of absence of good qualities (agu.na). d refers to the fourfold endeavour that is right effort of the eightfold Path that has to be accompanied by right understanding of the eightfold Path and e. also refers to pa~n~naa. The co speaks with regard to being endowed with wisdom, about being capable of discerning the arising and cessation of realities. As to the words the Ariyan penetration that leads to the complete destruction of suffering all this refers to vipassanaa pa~n~naa according to the co. As to the penetration of the ariyan, this is through purification (parisuddha). He is able to abandon lobha etc. that was formerly unabandoned. The subco: when that insight is not attained, dukkha occurs, and when it is attained, it does not occur. The person who develops insight is called a lesser sotaapanna. ------ N: As to a lesser sotaapanna, see Visuddhimagga XIX, 26, 27. This is after the second stage of tender insight, understanding conditions. He directly understands the dependent origination. Visuddhimagga: < For this is said: 'Understanding of discernment of conditions thus "Ignorance is a condition, formations are conditionally arisen, and both these states are conditionally arisen is knowledge of the causal relationship of states ..."> It is explained that doubt is overcome. But before that one has to be aware over and over again of all dhammas occurring in daily life, as they appear one at a time through the six doors. ------------ The five factors mentioned in this sutta which are conditions for right endeavour remind us that effort or endeavour is anattaa. There is no person who has endeavour. The first factor is unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem, and this is confidence of someone who has developed pa~n~naa to the degree of attaining enlightenment. The second factor pertains to ruupa, it is absence of illness. As we read, a good digestion is conditioned by kamma, it depends on the element of heat, originated from kamma. The third factor is sincerity, one should not hide ones faults. The fourth factor is right endeavour of the eightfold Path and this has to accompany right understanding of the eightfold Path. The last factor is vipassanaa pa~n~naa. As we see in this sutta and co, right understanding of realities goes together with right endeavour. When understanding grows, there are conditions for energy constantly stirred up for abandoning unwholesome dhammas and arousing wholesome dhammas, for steadfastness and firmness in advancing and persisting in wholesome dhammas. ****** Nina. #104631 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 1 szmicio Dear Nina, Could you say more on sacca ~nana? I think also the same, this is not merely intelectual understanding, so i found another word, reflection on Dhamma, on 4 Noble Truths, that is made with kusala citta. But I like your explanations that is not like reflecting only, this is more like knowing. Could you say more how do you feel this? > > First there needs to be sacca ~nana, that is reflection made on 4 > > Noble Truths. This is samma-ditthi of the intelectual level. > -------- > N:Sacca~naa.na is more than just reflection. Kh Sujin reminded us of > the present moment, brings everything back to the present moment. > Otherwise sacca~naa.na cannot be firm, the firm conviction of: this > is the Path. As to sammaadi.t.thi, this refers to the Path , thus, it > is not just intellectual understanding. L: I think samma-ditthi is the understanding of 4 Noble Truths. This is 3 rounds of this, 12 permutations. But samma-ditthi is of high level. The direct comprehension of 4 Noble Truths, samma-ditthi. Best wishes Lukas #104632 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of present moment. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: >It is sanna that note or recognize it as mine but it is ditthi that know or see it as mine. ... S: Yes, they arise together - without atta sanna, no atta ditthi. the Buddha often stresses the sanna in this connection. .... > I understand your explanation on the attanudtthi and sakkayaditthi or atta sanna or sukkha sanna. IMHO, again taking a thing on a computer is not attanuditthi (as it is a doctrine of self), it is miccha ditthi. .... S: It depends. In the example I gave, if the khandha, such as the hardness experienced now, is taken for 'a thing', 'a whole', then it is attanuditthi. ... > I got a feeling I am going to dicuss this with you also. Cheers, ha ha ha :-) ... S: Yes, look forward to those discussions.....keep your notes to raise all the topics you disagree with on with K.Sujin....ha ha:-) At least you're well prepared... Metta Sarah ========= #104633 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jill sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Azita & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: This is the link:< http://www.abhidhamma.org/Introduction.html > > > I quote the last part: <...> > To finish, a quote from `The Path of Purity' by Buddhaghosa, > a book recognized as the greatest written summary of the Theravadin > teachings in existence today: > > As long as a man is vague about the world, > > About its origin, about its ceasing, > > About the means that lead to its cessation, > > So long he cannot recognize the truths.> ... S: This is such a deep saying at the end. If there's no understanding of the 'world' appearing through the senses now, no way to understand dukkha and the other truths. Azita, thanks for your message - I wasn't sure if you went to Jill's funeral or not? I'd like to hear anything more about the service. I'm glad Gillian was able to include the nice quoted you provided. Metta Sarah ======== #104634 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Happy Boxing Day was Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... sarahprocter... Dear Ven Yanatharo, --- On Mon, 18/1/10, Ajahn Jose wrote: >I was reading the last posts and in the Suttra wich talks about a wife and so on, I get very disturb with my own beleives when Super Powers are attribute to the Buddha. After all in the Vinaya, the three reasons for a Monk to be disrobe are, Dont Kill, no stealing and not to attribute yourself to have super powers, the Buddha was a Monk, so where do we go from that? .... S: Nina has already written to you about the Buddha's powers. When we get disturbed, the problem is with our own thinking at such a time. As for the reasons for disrobing - these all relate to when a person finds he's unable to properly live the Bhikkhu's life happily and easily, following all the precepts and rules. .... >By the away, I am very well, a young man died in a car accident and his organs were compatible with mine so I got a Lung, two kidneys, a pancreas and gsulbladder, and I am like a new boy, living at the Monastery and walking my dogs. Metta. Ajahn Jose ... S: I was very glad to hear about your good fortune in this regard. May you be well for many years and develop more wisdom and all that's noble with the 'extra' time in this human realm. Metta Sarah ======= #104635 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:25 am Subject: Relics sarahprocter... Dear pt & all, > --- On Tue, 3/11/09, ptaus1 wrote: > > >However, there's this interesting passage from Nyanatiloka' s dicpt: tionary entry on Gotama http://palikanon. com/english/ pali_names/ g/gotama. htm: > > "It is said (E.g., DA.iii.899) that just before the Buddha's Saasana disappears completely from the world, all the relics will gather together at the Mahaacetiya, and travelling from there to Naagad?pa and the Ratanacetiya, assemble at the Mahaabodhi, together with the relics from other parts. There they will reform the Buddha's golden hued body, emitting the six-coloured aura. The body will then catch fire and completely disappear, amid the lamentations of the ten thousand world-systems. " ... S: I gave some detail from other texts before (#101975) and have had a section in Sammohavinodanii ("Dispeller of Delusion") marked to quote for you as well. However, I just haven't had time - my mother's been staying and we leave on Thursday for a series of trips, starting with a wedding in Canberra. So here's the reference to check when you next get to your excellent library (where?), unless anyone else wishes to type it out first: Ch 16, classification of knowledge, 2173ff, p.181 Lots of interesting detail in the chapter, also on schisms which I was discussing with Dieter and again, ran out of time to quote. Metta Sarah ======== #104636 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject sarahprocter... Hi pt (& Chuck), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > pt: Usually, I accept Ven.Nyanatiloka's definitions without hesitation, but in this particular case I'm a bit intrigued and would like to know what were his sources for concluding that nibbana is the only unconditioned element. > > I mean, the actual quote that is provided in the dictionary - Dhs.1084, doesn't in fact say "nibbana" in response to the question "Which are the states that are not causally related?", but simply answers "An unconditioned element". [Actually, Dhs. here says "And unconditioned element." But I believe that "And" is a typo for "An", not sure if this was corrected in later editions - I was reading the one from 1974]. .... S: Yes, I saw the same, but when I checked the Pali (before), I noted this: "1454. Katame dhammaa appaccayaa? Nibbaana.m - ime dhammaa appaccayaa." and then: "1456. Katame dhammaa asa'nkhataa? Nibbaana.m - ime dhammaa asankhataa." In the Khine transl., he gives: "1454. What are the dhammaa which are not due to causes? There is Nibbaana. These are the dhammaa which are not due to causes." "1456. What are the dhammaa which are unconditioned? There is Nibbaana. These are the dhammaa which are unconditioned." .... S: I remember also being perplexed about the sing/pl comments in the Atth. If there's an opportunity, I'll bring it up in the discussions in Bkk when Ken O gets into his 'Space' arguments:-) Apprciating all your research and consideration on the various knotty issues. Metta Sarah ======= #104637 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:48 am Subject: Re: Jill sarahprocter... Dear Ann (& Azita), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > A: Sarah, thank you for the reminder below - one that is so true. We are so easily diverted in our daily life, it is good to see be reminded how we are alone with just one citta at a time. > > > > I find this line of K.Sujin's a very helpful reminder: > > > > "We are alone, we are born alone, live our life alone, die alone." > > > > Just this one citta now... ... S: Yes, it's always helpful. My mother was just feeling a little sad about her departure tomorrow, so I reminded her about "one moment at a time". ... > > > A: I am not familiar with the Jataka story below: > > > > > "She went the way she had to go' - > > > > A: It seems particularly appropriate now - can you give me a reference, or a brief summary? ... S: Yes, we recently had a discussion about the wonderful Jataka. Here's a link to Christine's message in which she quotes the full story: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/103906 I'd like to hear anymore of your own reflections about this or any other topic... thx for joining in. Metta Sarah ======= #104638 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:56 am Subject: Re: The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 9. sarahprocter... Dear S.Santacitto, Apologies for the slow response. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "santa_esi09" wrote: > At present, I am staying in the Bellanwilarajamahaviharaya, Boralesgamuwa, Sri Lanka. If you are interested to see this monastery, you can access it in the google, and perhaps you will see some pictures of it. > > At present, Ven. Dhammadipa is staying in Nepal to continue his study there. Formerly he also stayed in Sri Lanka and we both studied at Kelaniya University. After he finished his B.A, he went to Nepal and stay till this days, while I still love Sri Lanka. ... S: Thank you very much for telling us. Yes, Sri Lanka is a beautiful country and a good place to study the Dhamma. ... > I have introduced myself and it would be good if you also introduce yourself. Honestly, I am really glad to see the members of this Dhammastudy who seem to be very advanced in the Dhamma. ... S: I come from England, but spent many months living in a forest temple outside Colombo in 1975. Later I went back to Sri Lanka with Nina and other friends including Jonothan for Dhamma discussions. Jonothan (Jon) and I have now lived in Hong Kong for 25 yrs! I look forward to any further discussions with you and wish you a peaceful and wise stay in Sri Lanka. With metta and respect Sarah ======== #104639 From: han tun Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (7) hantun1 Dear Nina, N: Only the sotaapanna has eradicated these three fetters. To become a lesser streamenterer is already very difficult: one has to have reached the second stage of tender insight. I would not claim that. Han: If you do not claim that I cannot insist that you do. But what I understand is the second stage of tender insight comes at the *Fifth* level of seven visuddhi. (Please see page 345 of CMA). But according to Visuddhimagga, the lesser stream enterer comes towards the end of the *Fourth* level of the seven visuddhi, i.e., towards the end of chapter XIX. The difference between lesser stream enterer and the stream enterer in abandoning the first three fetters, is that the lesser stream enterer abandons them *temporarily* and the stream enterer *completely*. From that point of view, I agree that stream enterer is very, very difficult. From where I got that idea of *temporary* abandonment? It is from the Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr Mehm Tin Mon. It says: [Sotaapanna is a noble person (Ariya) who has eliminated di.t.thi and vicikicch *completely*. He will never be reborn in the apaaya abodes and he is destined to enter Nibbaana in no more than seven rebirths in the kaama-planes. Now the yogi, who has attained Naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naa.na and Paccaya-pariggaha-~naa.na, has *temporarily* eliminated di.t.thi and vicikicchaa as described above. So he resembles a sotaapanna but he is not a sotaapanna yet. He is called a cuu.la-sotaapanna meaning a junior-sotaapanna. He will not be reborn in the apaaya abodes in his subsequent life.] Han: The first three fetters are three in number, but in terms of underlying cetasikas, there are only two, as the underlying cetasika for siilabbata-paraamaasa is di.t.thi. Respectfully, Han #104640 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary jonoabb Hi Howard (104582) > Likewise, the (indirect) reference to the senses being guarded is also a > reference to awareness of the level of satipatthana. > > It cannot, in my view, be a reference to conventional directed effort, > since such effort always lags behind the moment of consciousness to which it > is directed. > > Expressions such as "he watches over his senses, restrains his senses" > have to be understood in the context of the teaching on dhammas in general. > It is sati-panna that does the 'watching over' and 'restraining'. > ============================= > I find it interesting how we humans are so selective. ;-) I see here > what you consider to be "the crucial part." I guess you find "he strives to > ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise, such > as greed and sorrow, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches > over his senses, restrains his senses. This is called the effort to avoid." > That seems quite "crucial" to me! ;-) > =============== ;-)) I did address the passage you mention. Yes, also crucial. But I think it has to be read in the context of the sentence that precedes it (the one I quoted earlier). To my understanding, when there is a moment of awareness of the level of satipatthana (i.e., perceiving a form, etc, without adhering to the whole or its parts), there is also, by virtue of such awarness, the kind of effort being spoken of (i.e., the striving to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise and the watching over, or restraint of, the senses). Jon #104641 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:41 pm Subject: Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 jonoabb Hi Alex (104592) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > In the above case what I have said is that unless there is practice, one will not be a skillful at an action. Riding a bike is easy after there has been a sufficient practice not too long ago. By avoiding to ride a bike until one is skillful at it, will practically result in never sitting on a bike. > =============== Yes, I understand the analogy you are making, but I think it is a flawed analogy. I do not think the development of kusala can be likened to the practice of a conventional skill. One cannot practice kusala imperfectly (that would be a contradiction in terms)! Kusala either arises or it doesn't. > =============== This is very relevant to certain comments made by certain people about samatha. There will not be samatha if the causes for it, the practice, is not set. > =============== I'm not sure how you are using the term 'samatha'. To my understanding, when there is a moment of metta occurring in one's daily life, that's a moment of samatha. I don't see how this involves any prerequisite of 'practice'. > =============== > As to dana & sila, it may depend on certain understanding (mundane or supramundane. Buddhist or non-Buddhist) and qualities of the mind such as sufficient alobha. If a person has enough lobha, then that person may not be able to give gifts, even if s/he knows that it is wrong to be stingy. > =============== Yes, everyone's kusala has its limits. But that is beside the point. My question was whether, in your own experience, kusala can and does arise in a day without the need for directed effort > =============== Certain kinds of samatha meditation may help, if not in this life - then in the next ones. > =============== All kinds of kusala help in this life and the next. The question we are discussing is whether kusala necessarily requires directed effort. Jon #104642 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:48 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary jonoabb Hi Dieter (104613) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > D: the Ven. stated before quoting the details of A.IV.14 : > padhāna: 'effort.' The 4 right efforts (samma-padhāna), forming the 6th stage of the 8-fold Path (i.e. sammā-vāyāma, s. magga) are: (1) the effort to avoid (saṃvara-padhāna), (2) to overcome (pahāna-padhāna), (3) to develop (bhāvanā-padhāna), (4) to maintain (anurakkhaṇa-padhāna), i.e. (1) the effort to avoid unwholesome (akusala) states, such as evil thoughts, etc. (2) to overcome unwholesome states, (3) to develop wholesome (kusala) states, such as the 7 elements of enlightenment (bojjhaṅga, q.v.), (4) to maintain the wholesome states. > > "The monk rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, unwholesome things not yet arisen ... to overcome them ... to develop wholesome things not yet arisen ... to maintain them, and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives" (A. IV, 13). > > unquote > > > > hence crucial in general is: ..rouses his will , he makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives. > =============== References such as these and others (such as guarding the sense-doors) have to be read in the context of the teachings as a whole. See for example this passage from MN149: "Bhikkhus, when one knows and sees the eye as it actually is, … then one is not inflamed by lust for the eye … . "When one abides uninflamed by lust, … then the five aggregates affected by clinging are diminished for oneself in the future; and one's craving -- which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust, and delights in this or that -- is abandoned. 10: "The view of a person such as this is right view. His intention is right intention, his effort is right effort, his mindfulness is right mindfulness, his concentration is right concentration. … Thus this Noble Eightfold Path comes to fulfilment in him by development... (See full version as quoted by Connie at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/88974) According to this passage, when things are seen as they actually are, right effort and the other path factors are present. > =============== > I am not sure what you mean by 'conventional directed effort ', but assume it is identical with above. > > And yes, it lags behind the moment of consciousness .. because being the nutriment of right mindfulness. > =============== If the directed effort lags behind the moment of consciousness to which it is directed, it's difficult to see how it could have any useful effect. > =============== > Bhikkhu Bodhi writes in his anthology of the sacca , conc. right effort ( http://www.vipassana.com/resources/8fp5.php ) > > 'Time and again the Buddha has stressed the need for effort, for diligence, exertion, and unflagging perseverance. The reason why effort is so crucial is that each person has to work out his or her own deliverance. The Buddha does what he can by pointing out the path to liberation; the rest involves putting the path into practice, a task that demands energy. This energy is to be applied to the cultivation of the mind, which forms the focus of the entire path. The starting point is the defiled mind, afflicted and deluded; the goal is the liberated mind, purified and illuminated by wisdom. What comes in between is the unremitting effort to transform the defiled mind into the liberated mind. The work of self-cultivation is not easy -- there is no one who can do it for us but ourselves -- but it is not impossible.' > > The starting point is our more or less defiled mind ..! > =============== It is not wrong to say the starting point is the defiled mind, as long as we remember that there are both wholesome and unwholesome tendencies accumulated (lying latent), and that the mind is at times akusala and at times kusala and at times neither (for example, when it is resultant at moments of actual sense-door experience). So while akusala moments far outnumber the kusala ones, there is always the potential for kusala to arise given the right conditions. When it comes to the development of insight, those right conditions include in particular hearing the teachings and reflection on what has been heard and understood. Jon #104643 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:33 pm Subject: Three rounds, no 5. nilovg Dear Lukas, The fourth noble Truth. intro: The way leading to the ceasing of dukkha, namely the eightfold Path, is the fourth noble truth. Also with regard to the fourth noble truth there are three phases or rounds. The first round is understanding what the development of this Path is, sacca ~naa.na. This is not theoretical understanding, but it pertains to the development of understanding of the dhamma appearing at this moment. Naama and ruupa, paramattha dhammas, are the objects of which understanding should be developed. These are different from concepts, and image of a whole of a person, of the body, of a thing. The second round is understanding of the task that has to be performed, the development of the eightfold Path, kicca ~naa.na. Kicca ~naa.na begins to develop when mindfulness and direct understanding arises of the dhammas that appear, such as seeing, colour, hearing, sound, attachment or generosity. They appear because of their own conditions and cannot be directed by a self. The third round is understanding of the task which has been performed, namely, the accomplishment of the development of the eightfold Path, kata ~naa.na. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------- Text: 'This is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering': thus, monks, in regard to teachings not heard by me before, insight, knowledge, wisdom, revelation, and illumination arose. 'Now this noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering ought to be developed': thus, monks, in regard to teachings not heard by me before, insight, knowledge, wisdom, revelation, and illumination arose. 'Now this noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering has been developed': thus, monks, in regard to teachings not heard by me before, insight, knowledge, wisdom, revelation, and illumination arose. --------------- N: There are different levels of pa~n~na: intellectual understanding based on listening to the Dhamma, and pa~n~na accompanied by sati that is directly aware of the characteristics of realities appearing at the present moment through one of the six doorways. There cannot be immediately clear understanding of realities, but we can begin to develop understanding of the realities we used to take for people, beings and things. ********** Pali: 'Ida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu.m udapaadi, ~naa.na.m udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi. 'Ta.m kho pan'ida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavetabban'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu.m udapaadi, ~naa.na.m udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi. 'Ta.m kho pan'ida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavitan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu.m udapaadi, ~naa.na.m udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi. _________ Nina. #104645 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:36 pm Subject: The Natural Way of Development truth_aerator Hello Jon, Sarah, Nina, all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (104592) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > In the above case what I have said is that unless there is practice, one will not be a skillful at an action. Riding a bike is easy after there has been a sufficient practice not too long ago. By avoiding to ride a bike until one is skillful at it, will practically result in never sitting on a bike. > > =============== > >Yes, I understand the analogy you are making, but I think it is a >flawed analogy. I hope that you have understood my analogue. If you did, it wouldn't seem so flawed. >The question we are discussing is whether kusala necessarily >requires directed effort. At first, there must be a directed effort (because there isn't much kusala qualities. A perfect kusala just doesn't appear from thin air). After a while, kusala will arise spontaneously and by itself, without directed effort. But again, the spontaneous actions are the result of long developed habits. A person who has only akusala, just cannot have only kusala the next moment. A car travelling 100mph in a narrow road to the East, cannot the next second be travelling at 100mph to the west. It needs to gradually slow down to complete stop, 100 mph to 0mph. Then turn to the west and accelerate from 0mph to 100mph. Similar is with development of kusala qualities. Same with development of wisdom. Arhatship is not "natural". It goes against the flow of Samsara. Thus one has to at first apply a lot of directed effort. If you don't resist when you should resist the flow of the water, you will simply be swept away. A simile: A martial artist practices many complex self defense moves for many hours a day. At first s/he is bad it it and has to think where to move the arm, how to place the leg, where when and how to shift the stance etc etc. Some time later, in daily life, someone tries to rob him. The martial artist executes a very complex self-defense technique automatically and without thinking. "It" just happens. As Bruce Lee has said something like "I do not punch. It punches by itself". The above can happen when a technique has become like a 2nd nature. Also it may make sense to practice a limited set of samatha techniques to be able to handle defilements when they still arise. The stronger and more skillful the defilements, the more skillful the countermeasures should be. "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." - Bruce Lee Undirected study or observation, without a set goals, strategy and tactics, seems like to practice 10,000 kicks once. Not having any goals and be content with lack of results is the path to nowhere. Don't mistake the effortless effort to mean that lying on the coach is the path there. The skill that is effortless, was attained only though development of it. > I do not think the development of kusala can be likened to the >practice of a conventional skill. One cannot practice kusala >imperfectly (that would be a contradiction in terms)! Kusala either >arises or it doesn't. You seem to rigid with what you define as wholesome/unwholesome. The world is not like that, Jon! Most acts are not black and white and have DEGREES of kusala/akusala. For example a person may do: a bad thing for selfish gain with wrong view a bad thing for selfish gain without wrong view a bad thing for a good cause with wrong view a bad thing for a good cause without wrong view A good thing (such as dana) for selfish gain with wrong view A good thing (such as dana) for selfish gain without wrong view A good thing (such as dana) with right view for the right reasons. An even better kusala act, with knowledge/ Even kusala actions are not equal. Some things are more kusala tham the others. With metta, Alex #104646 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:36 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Jon,and .. you wrote: It is not wrong to say the starting point is the defiled mind, as long as we remember that there are both wholesome and unwholesome tendencies accumulated (lying latent), and that the mind is at times akusala and at times kusala and at times neither (for example, when it is resultant at moments of actual sense-door experience). D: yes, we need again and again to remember this in order to develop Right Effort , i.e. to train (practise with) the mind to avoid .. , to overcome... to develop , .. to maintain.. (see sutta text) J: So while akusala moments far outnumber the kusala ones, there is always the potential for kusala to arise given the right conditions. D: to me it seems as well that there is less to maintain than to avoid , to overcome , to develop .. ;-).. energy is needed ...( And he makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives" (A. IV, 13) J: When it comes to the development of insight, those right conditions include in particular hearing the teachings and reflection on what has been heard and understood. D: well , I think most of the active DSG members are rather familar with what has been said about the 8 fold Noble Path .. the point is not forget over one's reflection that the ' poisoned arrow ' must be removed as soon as possible , i.e. to start the practise ... (always a good reminder to myself...) B.T.W. I assume that we agree on the sila sequence of the path training ? ( because it is the base for the samadhi part.... ) J: (D: hence crucial in general is: ..rouses his will , he makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives.) > =============== References such as these and others (such as guarding the sense-doors) have to be read in the context of the teachings as a whole. D: What have been said in this respect (conc. Right Effort) has been said ( e.g. A. IV 13) J: See for example this passage from MN149: "Bhikkhus, when one knows and sees the eye as it actually is, … then one is not inflamed by lust for the eye … . "When one abides uninflamed by lust, … then the five aggregates affected by clinging are diminished for oneself in the future; and one's craving -- which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust, and delights in this or that -- is abandoned. 10: "The view of a person such as this is right view. His intention is right intention, his effort is right effort, his mindfulness is right mindfulness, his concentration is right concentration. … Thus this Noble Eightfold Path comes to fulfilment in him by development... (See full version as quoted by Connie at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/88974) D: Jon , our topic is the samadhi part of path training , i.e. now Right Effort .. we need to treat the general aspects first before we apply further details like contemplation respectively clear understanding of the six senses Trusting my M.N. index , the sutta you are refering to has been taught in context with the development of the 7 wings to enlightenment. J: According to this passage, when things are seen as they actually are, right effort and the other path factors are present. D: Despite the fact that the path steps are interrelated, progress in practise needs the approach concentrated on a special task, here the 4 fold approach to Right Effort, i.e. to avoid , to overcome , to develop , to maintain . J: (D. I am not sure what you mean by 'conventional directed effort ', but assume it is identical with above. And yes, it lags behind the moment of consciousness .. because being the nutriment of right mindfulness.) > =============== If the directed effort lags behind the moment of consciousness to which it is directed, it's difficult to see how it could have any useful effect. D: until perfect mindfulness is established we need to reflect the moment in order to see what needs to be avoided, , to overcome , to develop , to maintain .. reflection lags behind, doesn`t it? It is difficult to see how any useful effect could be otherwise. with Metta Dieter #104647 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Natural Way of Development upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Jon) - In a message dated 1/24/2010 1:37:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Most acts are not black and white and have DEGREES of kusala/akusala. For example a person may do: a bad thing for selfish gain with wrong view a bad thing for selfish gain without wrong view a bad thing for a good cause with wrong view a bad thing for a good cause without wrong view A good thing (such as dana) for selfish gain with wrong view A good thing (such as dana) for selfish gain without wrong view A good thing (such as dana) with right view for the right reasons. An even better kusala act, with knowledge/ Even kusala actions are not equal. Some things are more kusala tham the others. ============================== I agree with your 1st and last sentences in the above material, but I have a bit of a problem with the items in between, items that don't pertain, BTW, to degree of wholesomeness or unwholesomeness. You write that a person may do "a bad thing for selfish gain without wrong view. If there is selfish gain as a purpose, how can there not be wrong view involved? When you say "a bad thing," you seem to mean an action that causes harm, but such an action is not one that is necessarily morally wrong, for *that* depends on the intention and the understanding involved. The dichotomy of good "thing" versus "bad thing" as you use it seems misleading to me. The "things" that are relevant here are instances of *kamma*, i.e., intention and the carrying out of the intention by actions of thought, word, or deed. The action in and of itself is not *morally* good or bad. It's moral character depends on the intention for the act (and the wisdom or ignorance conditioning that intention). It is the intention and understanding that is the measure of kusala or akusala. So, in the case of a harmful action done for selfish gain, the intention is unwholesome and conditioned by ignorance, and thus is WITH wrong view, and the unwholesomeness of intention is what makes the action unwholesome, not that the action causes harm. Causing harm may well be inadvertent. To go on to another case: What you call dana for selfish gain must be with wrong view and wrong intention, and, moreover, the so-called dana is not actually dana. Dana is a matter of mentality - an internal generosity that is carried out. One who gives money or services to another for purposes of control, manipulation, or eliciting an obligation, for example, is NOT engaging in dana. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104648 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:34 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Ken H, you wrote: 'know I have said this many times before, but here it is again.:-) Please observe the similarities between conventional Buddhism (as illustrated in this case by Ajahn Cha) and the self-help industry that is currently booming in the western world. So many high-sounding words that promise everything and deliver nothing! Honestly, Dieter, when you read A. Cha's lecture, what does it tell you that you didn't already know? The honest answer is 'nothing' isn't it? Just words! Conventional religions and self-help industries use empty, high-sounding words to give their target audiences a brief hit of hope. They offer the dream of becoming a better person - or a more enlightened person. The brief hit of hope inevitably ends in disappointment and self recrimination, but the audience is addicted, and so they keep coming back for more. It's the oldest trick in the book, and it has kept conventional religions going for thousands of years. I'll stop there because I know I am wasting my breath, but . . . I had to say something. :-) ' D: Ken , I was thinking whether to respond to your posting at all.. besides the question whether my choise of quotation was useful /fitting or not for the discussion ( core: ' So who will do the watching over? Who will take responsibility for your actions? Who is the one who knows before you lie, swear or say something frivolous? Contemplate this: whoever it is who knows is the one who has to take responsibility for your sila. Bring that awareness to watch over your actions and speech. That knowing, that awareness is what you use to watch over your practice') I am wondering whether , when you reflect now what you have written , you do see that by the wording ,you are providing an example what has to be avoided (revile an international highly revered Buddhist monk) and/ or to overcome ( the obvious bitterness due to some previous experience of yours) with Metta Dieter #104649 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:52 pm Subject: degress of a/kusala and Kamma leading to the end of Kamma truth_aerator Hi Howard, Jon, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Jon) - > > In a message dated 1/24/2010 1:37:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > >Most acts are not black and white and have DEGREES of >kusala/akusala. > > For example a person may do: > a bad thing for selfish gain with wrong view > a bad thing for selfish gain without wrong view > a bad thing for a good cause with wrong view > a bad thing for a good cause without wrong view > A good thing (such as dana) for selfish gain with wrong view > A good thing (such as dana) for selfish gain without wrong view > A good thing (such as dana) with right view for the right reasons. > An even better kusala act, with knowledge/ > >Even kusala actions are not equal. Some things are more kusala >tham the others. > ============================== >I agree with your 1st and last sentences in the above material, but >I have a bit of a problem with the items in between, items that >don't pertain, BTW, to degree of wholesomeness or unwholesomeness. As long as we agree that there are degress of wholesome or unwholesome acts and that not every act needs to be totally black or white - it is great. >You write that a person may do "a bad thing for selfish gain >without wrong view. If there is selfish gain as a purpose, how can >there not be wrong view involved? Example: A child stealing someone's candy bar without a belief in Eternal Self, or some other convoluted Philsophical position. Just a case of "I want your candy". In the suttas a person for example may do "dog-duty or ox-duty ascetism". If perfected without wrong view, then it will lead they to be reborn as dog or an ox. If fulfilled with wrong view, then one goes either to hell or animal rebirth. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.057.nymo.html Sometimes people just act on impulses and don't have wrong philosophical views. That is what I've meant by wrong views. In that post by "wrong views" I've primary meant established and clung to views about Atta (thought you could add other wrong views such as acausality, amorality, inaction and other philosophical views). A person may commit a bad action while holding a philosophical justification or without having philosophical justification. "11. "What is dark-and-bright kamma with dark-and-bright ripening? Here someone produces a (kammic) bodily process both (bound up) with affliction and not (bound up) with affliction... verbal process... mental process both (bound up) with affliction and not (bound up) with affliction. By doing so, he reappears in a world both with and without affliction. When that happens, both afflicting and unafflicting contacts touch him. Being touched by these, he feels afflicting and unafflicting feelings with mingled pleasure and pain as in the case of human beings and some gods and some inhabitants of the states of deprivation. Thus a being's reappearance is due to a being: he reappears owing to the kammas he has performed. When he has reappeared, contacts touch him. Thus I say are beings heirs of their kammas. This is called dark-and-bright kamma with dark-and-bright ripening." An interesting thing is that there is a Kamma that leads to the end of Kamma. So I guess the Buddha didn't say that the path is to outright drop all doing. Not doing anything like an Arahant is a result, not the path to that result! 12. "What is neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening that leads to the exhaustion of kamma? As to these (three kinds of kamma), any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark with dark ripening, any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is bright with bright ripening, and any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark-and bright with dark-and-bright ripening: this is called neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.057.nymo.html With metta, Alex #104650 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:05 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau Hi Dieter, Thanks for responding. > > D: Ken , I was thinking whether to respond to your posting at all.. > > besides the question whether my choise of quotation was useful /fitting or not for the discussion ( core: ' So who will do the watching over? Who will take responsibility for your actions? Who is the one who knows before you lie, swear or say something frivolous? Contemplate this: whoever it is who knows is the one who has to take responsibility for your sila. Bring that awareness to watch over your actions and speech. That knowing, that awareness is what you use to watch over your practice') > > I am wondering whether , when you reflect now what you have written , you do see that by the wording ,you are providing an example what has to be avoided (revile an international highly revered Buddhist monk) and/ or to overcome ( the obvious bitterness due to some previous experience of yours) > > KH: I wonder if you are right when you say I "revile internationally revered Buddhist monks." I certainly disagree with conventional versions of Buddhism, and so I am not impressed by people who disseminate those versions. (The Dalai Lama, for example.) But is disagreeing the same as reviling? Some people at DSG are trying to explain the Dhamma *as it is found in the ancient Pali texts.* These people encounter constant disagreement from other members who prefer modern, conventional, interpretations. But are they necessarily being "reviled" by those other members? Are the Theras who composed the ancient commentaries necessarily being "reviled" by members who prefer modern commentaries? I think we just have to remember that there is the right way and there is the wrong way - there is the true Dhamma and there is the false Dhamma. The two do not mix! We must not be deterred in our efforts to learn the true Dhamma. We must not be put off by accusations of "reviling respected monks." Ken H #104651 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] degress of a/kusala and Kamma leading to the end of Kamma upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 1/24/2010 2:55:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Sometimes people just act on impulses and don't have wrong philosophical views. That is what I've meant by wrong views. In that post by "wrong views" I've primary meant established and clung to views about Atta (thought you could add other wrong views such as acausality, amorality, inaction and other philosophical views). A person may commit a bad action while holding a philosophical justification or without having philosophical justification. ============================ Okay, thanks - I understand. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104652 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:44 pm Subject: VsM teaches formal meditation truth_aerator Hello KenH, Dieter, all, > "kenhowardau" wrote: > Some people at DSG are trying to explain the Dhamma *as it is found >in the ancient Pali texts.* These people encounter constant >disagreement from other members who prefer modern, conventional, >interpretations. But are they necessarily being "reviled" by those >other members? Are the Theras who composed the ancient commentaries >necessarily being "reviled" by members who prefer modern >commentaries? The VsM does talk about secluded and formal practice. So where is the "modern, conventional, interpretation"? For example, Metta. VsM IX,1 "A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments* and learn the meditation subject. Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place." Anapanasati VsM VIII VIII,145. "'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, VIII,153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing. VIII,158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176; Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting place).42 [271] VIII,159. Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three seasons, suitable to humour and temperament,43 and favourable to the development of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation. Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. VIII,160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. =========== As to unfavourable monastery VsM - IV,2 : "Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults. These are: largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond, [edible] leaves, flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby port of entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. [119] One with any of these faults is not favourable. He should not live there. " Ten Impediments: VsM III, 29 A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." ==== With metta, Alex #104653 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:12 am Subject: Is Money Happiness? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Is Money Happiness or Suffering? Ultimately: All that ever arises is only Dukkha... (Including all wealth!) All that ever ceases is also only Dukkha... (So only pain is really lost!) Pragmatically, conventionally and relatively seems money to have become a both practical and necessary evil in most but not all societies. Remember in the beginning of this universal eon we were all a shining society of radiant devas feeding on Joy moving through space freely. Now we have decayed to mere ever more wanting humans ... However: When there is money, there is inevitably recurring bills, depts, loans... When there is recurring bills, depts, loans, inevitably there is also worry! When there is recurring or permanent worry, there is also frustration. When there is frequent frustration, that is indeed mental Suffering... Suffering is not Happiness... A wise one said: Those things we give emphasis to in our lives can also become our prison! My first inclination -if I have money- is not to lose it! Therefore it makes me become increasingly fearful of others, or put security systems around my home. So money may not achieve any good life, because it is simply not true, that money can make humans ever happy! Interestingly, it seems IMHO that Mr. Mara, Mr. Namuci, The End-maker, The Tempter, The Evil One, have mind manipulated some otherwise good, intelligent and faithful people to think, and even repeatedly postulate: Money is only happiness! Money is sole satisfaction! Money is just ecstasy! No bad side-effects are there ever with money! Well.. then.., let there be Happiness.. But not Fever.. Nor fire .. Nor Worry! If ever possible ... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104654 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:45 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, As we have seen, the three mental factors which are the abstentions from evil moral conduct arise one at a time, depending on the given situation. At the moment of enlightenment, however, all three Path factors which are good moral conduct arise together. The reason is that they perform at that moment the function of eradicating the cause of misconduct as to speech, action and livelihood. Latent tendencies of defilements are eradicated so that they do not arise anymore. As I explained before, defilements are eradicated at different stages of enlightenment and it is only at the fourth and final stage that all akusala is eradicated. Right effort is another Path factor. Effort or energy is a mental factor which can arise with kusala citta, akusala citta and citta which is neither kusala nor akusala. Its function is to support and strengthen the citta. When effort or energy is kusala it is the condition for courage and perseverance in the performing of kusala. Energy is right effort of the eightfold Path when it accompanies right understanding of the eightfold Path. It is the condition for perseverance with the investigation and study of the reality appearing at the present moment, be it a mental phenomenon or a physical phenomenon. Energy and patience are indispensable for the development of right understanding. There must be awareness of mental phenomena and physical phenomena over and over again, in the course of many lives, so that right understanding can see realities as they are, as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. When we hear the word effort we may have a concept of self who exerts an effort to develop right understanding. Effort is non-self, it is a mental factor which assists right understanding. When there is mindfulness of a reality and understanding investigates its nature, there is at that moment also right effort which performs its function. It does not arise because of ones wish, it arises because of its own conditions. ******* Nina. #104655 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:13 am Subject: Re: VsM teaches formal meditation szmicio Dear Alex, Nice, you had been quoted it before. This is really a perfect teaching. but not all people can develop object of anapanasati. Very hard. Some people on a group are not able to develop this and belive me they really tried it for so many years. So what would yo say? > The VsM does talk about secluded and formal practice. So where is the "modern, conventional, interpretation"? > > For example, Metta. VsM IX,1 > "A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments* and learn the meditation subject. Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place." > > Anapanasati VsM VIII > VIII,145. "'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, > VIII,153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing. > VIII,158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176; Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting place).42 [271] > > VIII,159. Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three seasons, suitable to humour and temperament,43 and favourable to the development of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation. Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. > > VIII,160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. > =========== > > As to unfavourable monastery VsM - IV,2 : > "Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults. > These are: largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond, > [edible] leaves, flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby port of entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. [119] One with any of these faults is not favourable. He should not live there. " > > Ten Impediments: VsM III, 29 > A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, > And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." L: I always enjoying this is much. Best wishes Lukas #104656 From: Lukas Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 5. szmicio Dear Nina, So it seems that pariyatti, patipati and pativeda is different then sacca, kicca and kata ~nana. Could you say more on this? Where can we put kusala reflection on Dhamma, 4 Noble Truths? Some of this reflections, could brings some liberation. Like considering vipaka and kamma in daily life after reading sutta. Is it not the sacca ~nana, or maybe pariyatti? I could feel that this very graduall kind of reflection, that can be made by kusala citta can develop sati in the future. Best wishes Lukas --- On Sun, 1/24/10, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > From: Nina van Gorkom > Subject: [dsg] Three rounds, no 5. > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 3:33 PM > Dear Lukas, > The fourth noble Truth. > intro: > The way leading to the ceasing of dukkha, namely the > eightfold > Path, is the fourth noble truth. Also with regard to the > fourth noble > truth there are three phases or rounds. The first round > is > understanding what the development of this Path is, sacca > ~naa.na. > This is not theoretical understanding, but it pertains to > the > development of understanding of the dhamma appearing at > this moment. > Naama and ruupa, paramattha dhammas, are the objects of > which > understanding should be developed. These are different from > concepts, > and image of a ‘whole’ of a person, of the body, of a > thing. > The second round is understanding of the task that has to > be > performed, the development of the eightfold Path, kicca > ~naa.na. > Kicca ~naa.na begins to develop when mindfulness and > direct > understanding arises of the dhammas that appear, such as > seeing, > colour, hearing, sound, attachment or generosity. They > appear because > of their own conditions and cannot be directed by a self. > The third round is understanding of the task which has > been > performed, namely, the accomplishment of the development of > the > eightfold Path, kata ~naa.na. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > --------------------------------------- > Text: > > 'This is the noble truth of the way leading to the > cessation of > suffering': > thus, monks, in regard to teachings not heard by me before, > insight, > knowledge, wisdom, revelation, and illumination arose. > 'Now this noble truth of the way leading to the cessation > of > suffering ought to be developed': thus, monks, in regard to > teachings > not heard by me before, insight, knowledge, wisdom, > revelation, and > illumination arose. > 'Now this noble truth of the way leading to the cessation > of > suffering has been developed': thus, monks, in regard to > teachings > not heard by me before, insight, knowledge, wisdom, > revelation, and > illumination arose. > --------------- > N: There are different levels of pa~n~na: intellectual > understanding > based on listening to the Dhamma, and pa~n~na accompanied > by sati > that is directly aware of the characteristics of realities > appearing > at the present moment through one of the six doorways. > There cannot be immediately clear understanding of > realities, but we > can begin to develop understanding of the realities we used > to take > for people, beings and things. > > ********** > > Pali: 'Ida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa > ariyasaccan'ti me, > bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu.m udapaadi, > ~naa.na.m > udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko > udapaadi. > 'Ta.m kho pan'ida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa > ariyasacca.m > bhaavetabban'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu > cakkhu.m > udapaadi, ~naa.na.m udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa > udapaadi, > aaloko udapaadi. > 'Ta.m kho pan'ida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa > ariyasacca.m > bhaavitan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu > cakkhu.m > udapaadi, ~naa.na.m udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa > udapaadi, > aaloko udapaadi. > > _________ > > Nina. > #104657 From: Lukas Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 szmicio Dear Alex and all,You gave some good example. I could tell how I could feel this. This is my metta most favourable object. How the people walk and move. There is a great object to metta. You said about martial art. There is no any Self who is fighting. Sometimes I look at people fighting I have a lot of ruupa considerations. I could feel the ruupa they get. The people who were quareling on the street and they start to fight kick and punch. I have no bad thought on them. I could feel the different minds they are influanced in such moments. No one can control this. also different ruupas that arise and fall away. just metta. all conditioned. just the ruupa element that are fighting no persons. When sati arises it can easily know those ruupas now, and also it can understand the outside ruupas of different people. Then i can be an object for metta. so great metta. and so much compassion to all people. when there is no understading of 4 Noble Truths in a person then we should have so many comapassion to them. Dont judge anyone, because anything can happen to us. You can go down the street and maybe get anger because of someone, and you can even start to fight or do something bad, we dont know. I could give you some example with sex. There ws a women who was saying that her partner was not good in bed. he was as she called 'awkward' or 'had awkward movements'. She was disappointed and also very happy, she was discussing this with her friends.But what she calls awkward movements is only a ruupa, and this is only a conditioned element. the ruupa that moves. whe cannot pinpoint this, but it's sapaccya, sankhata, so this could be gradually known. I wanna said this. this is an excelant example, I have so much metta for people so much. When people smile, there is ruupa, the cittas are just smiling and this is not you. The same like walking or moving your hand. The monks in shaolin they dont know anything about fighting. They just see ruupa that moves a hand, or kick an punches. And the citta that is moving a hand, and different intentions like fighting. I could feel this with other people, when they fight or are involved in akusala. I could feel like intentions going throught their minds, and different ruupas. really no Self. The sati can know this. This is the only sati you can get. just metta and compassion. just all what appears is gone now. Best wishesLukas p.sThis is not someting that can be known directly in the beginning , but this is a development of sacca ~nana, cause it brings detachment. detachment by knowing and seeing. even it's not ~nana now. >The question we are discussing is whether kusala necessarily >requires directed effort. At first, there must be a directed effort. After a while, it will arise spontaneously and by itself, without directed effort. A simile: A martial artist practices many complex self defense moves for many hours a day. At first s/he is bad it it and has to think where to move the arm, how to place the leg, where when and how to shift the stance etc etc. Some time later, in daily life, someone tries to rob him. The martial artist executes a very complex self-defense technique automatically and without thinking. "It" just happens. As Bruce Lee has said something like "I do not punch. It punches by itself". The above can happen when a technique has become like a 2nd nature. Also it may make sense to practice a limited set of samatha techniques to be able to handle defilements when they still arise. The stronger and more skillful the defilements, the more skillful the countermeasures should be. "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." - Bruce Lee Undirected study or observation, without a set goals, strategy and tactics, seems like to practice 10,000 kicks once. Not having any goals and be content with lack of results is the path to nowhere. Don't mistake the effortless effort to mean that lying on the coach is the path there. The skill that is effortless, was attained only though development of it. > I do not think the development of kusala can be likened to the >practice of a conventional skill. One cannot practice kusala >imperfectly (that would be a contradiction in terms)! Kusala either >arises or it doesn't. You seem to rigid with what you define as wholesome/unwholeso me. The world is not like that, Jon! Most acts are not black and white and have DEGREES of kusala/akusala. For example a person may do: a bad thing for selfish gain with wrong view a bad thing for selfish gain without wrong view a bad thing for a good cause with wrong view a bad thing for a good cause without wrong view A good thing (such as dana) for selfish gain with wrong view A good thing (such as dana) for selfish gain without wrong view A good thing (such as dana) with right view for the right reasons. An even better kusala act, with knowledge/ Even kusala actions are not equal. Some things are more kusala tham the others. With metta, Alex #104658 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 5. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 25-jan-2010, om 8:26 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > So it seems that pariyatti, patipati and pativeda is different then > sacca, kicca and kata ~nana. Could you say more on this? -------- N: They are similar, but sacca, kicca and kata ~nana are more specifically referred to with regard to the four noble Truths. --------- > > L: Where can we put kusala reflection on Dhamma, 4 Noble Truths? > > Some of this reflections, could brings some liberation. --------- N: Only if reflection is seen as a conditioned naama that is non- self, thus, when there is awareness and right understanding of such reflection. We may forget this, don't we? --------- > > L: Like considering vipaka and kamma in daily life after reading > sutta. Is it not the sacca ~nana, or maybe pariyatti? ------ N: Pariyatti always pertains to the present reality, and so does sacca ~naa.na. They are much more than just considering the dhamma. -------- > L: I could feel that this very graduall kind of reflection, that > can be made by kusala citta can develop sati in the future. ------- N: Better not think about this, it conditions wishing! There is always the present reality as Ken H says. I heard on a recording that Kh Sujin says that she speaks about realities because people think of the future, of concepts and then get disturbed. Like me: how will this go, what if Lodewijk... No use. Just being disturbed by concepts, lost in the sea of concepts. ***** Nina. #104659 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 1 nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 24-jan-2010, om 10:49 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > L: I think samma-ditthi is the understanding of 4 Noble Truths. > This is 3 rounds of this, 12 permutations. But samma-ditthi is of > high level. The direct comprehension of 4 Noble Truths, samma-ditthi. ------ N: My eye just fell on sammaadi.t.thi in the commentary to the Anguttara Nikaaya, book of the Twos. There are many meanings and degrees, depending on the context: right understanding of kamma and result, kammassaka sammaa di.t.thi. (This is when vipassanaa ~naa.na has been reached, even the first stage of tender insight). ~naa.na sammaa di.t.thi. vipassanaa sammaa di.t.thi. magga sammaa di.t.thi. phala sammaa di.t.thi. (These last two are lokuttara). The co. just sums up. ------ Nina. #104660 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, I select some points from your former letters. Op 17-jan-2010, om 21:16 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > > When Sati is aware of something, it is the self who perform the > action. Sati includes the appropriation performed by the self (PTS > Sati definition: "included mindfulness, alertness, lucidity of mind, > self -- possession, conscience, self -- consciousness") ------ N: These explanations like self-possession are just conventional terms. one can use them without wrong understanding that self exists. But I find them not too clear. As Lukas also wrote: no self who is aware, from the beginning no self. Awareness is kusala and then there cannot be at the same time wrong view of self that is akusala. ------- > > V: So I understand there are not different insights neither stages of > insight. There is only the Insight into Truth, and it is the same for > sotapanna or arhant. ------ N: It could not be of the same level, the arahat has the highest level and eradicated all latent tendencies (fermentations). There must be stages, thus, development. ------- > V: Then it is a way for the eradication of Ignorance instead of > accumulating knowledge. I understand this difference of a superior > importance, because in the eradication there is not appropriation, > while in the accumulation it is. ------ N: That is right. The Expositor uses the simile of a brickwall built up brick by brick. Wisdom tears it down. Accumulation of kusala is not the aim. On the other hand we can say that understanding develops, is accumulated little by little. -------- > > V: What I cannot understand, it's about the need of some remanent or > roots of the fermentations which must be present in some way while > there is insight. ------ N: Fermentations are present in each citta, they lay dormant like microbes, even in kusala citta with insight. They do not arise. It means: they are defilements not yet eradicated. The arahat does not have them anymore. -------- > v: At the contrary we will be arhants at the first > insight experience or perhaps we would not have memory of the same > Insight. --------- N: Impossible, insight that is just beginning is not of the arahat. ------------ > V: I think quite obvious this is the problem with the > parammatha-dhammas. These explanations have the goal to serve the best > and accurate explanation as possible in order to help others to reach > the goal. They are not a literal reflection of the Truth precisely > because they are a reflection and not the thing in itself, still more > when also we are the mirage and we will distort them. -------- N: Paramattha dhammas are real, they are not concepts constructed by thinking. Naama and ruupa are real, and we do not have to name them in order to experience them. They have characteristics that can be directly known. Quote: --------- Nina. ------- #104661 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:02 am Subject: Re: VsM teaches formal meditation kenhowardau Hi Alex, ----------- <. . .> > The VsM does talk about <. . .> formal practice. ------------ That is impossible. In reality there can be either conditioned dhammas or formal practices. There can't be both. The Vsm says there are conditioned dhammas. End of story! :-) Ken H #104662 From: han tun Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:30 pm Subject: Dhaniya Sutta (9) hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah, and others, I am presenting Snp 1.2 Dhaniya Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and the explanations by Sayadaw U Nyanissara. It is about the dialogue between Dhaniya, a wealthy cattle owner, and the Buddha. Dhaniya lived at the time when the Buddha was staying at Saavatthi. It was the monsoon season, just before the onset of rain. He had built strong shelters for himself, his family and for the cattle on the bank of the River Mahi. The Buddha, however, knew that this family was in danger of being overwhelmed by the flood, and also knew that Dhaniya was ready to take in His teachings and attain spiritual attainment. So by His supernormal powers, He appeared outside of Dhaniya's shelter, at the tree top level. While Dhaniya was rejoicing in the comfort and security, he uttered verses depicting his accomplishments and how he was prepared for the rain, and challenging the rain god to go ahead and rain. The Buddha also uttered verses that play on words of Dhaniya's verses with different meaning. After Verse (12), Dhaniya wondered whether the person who was talking to him from outside of his shelter might be the Buddha, because an ordinary person would not be able to speak with such deep meaning. At that moment, the Buddha radiated the six coloured rays and lit up the entire area. Now, convinced that it was indeed the Buddha, Dhaniya and his family paid homage to the Buddha. The Buddha delivered the six-step Graduated Training discourse, at the end of which Dhaniya and his wife and two daughters became Sotaapannas. Dhaniya and his wife requested the Buddha to be their Refuge and the Teacher and allow them to live the holy life under Him. Then the Maara came. -------------------- 16. Mara: [Note 8] "Those with children delight because of their children. Those with cattle delight because of their cows. A person's delight comes from acquisitions, since a person with no acquisitions doesn't delight." [Note 8 by Thanissaro Bhikkhu] According to the Commentary, Mara suddenly comes on the scene to try, unsuccessfully, to prevent Dhaniya and his wife from going forth. His verses here, together with the Buddha's response, are also found at SN 4.8. 16. Nandati puttehi puttimaa (iti maaro paapimaa) Gomiko gohi tatheva nandati, Upadhii hi narassa nandanaa Na hi so nandati yo niruupadhii. -------------------- 17. The Buddha: "Those with children grieve because of their children. Those with cattle grieve because of their cows. A person's grief comes from acquisitions, since a person with no acquisitions doesn't grieve." 17. Socati puttehi puttimaa (iti bhagavaa) Gomiko gohi tatheva socati, Upadhiihi narassa socanaa Na hi so socati yo niruupadhiiti. -------------------- Han: You can see the best play of word by the Buddha on Maara's verse with an opposite meaning. Verse (16) and Verse (17) are almost the same, but while Maara spoke to Dhaniya about the delight (nandati) of having children, cattle, and acquisitions, the Buddha spoke about the grief (socati) of having children, cattle and acquisitions. Dhaniya and his wife were determined to go ahead and join the Sangha community. Maara, knowing that he had failed, fled the scene, and then the rain stopped. Sayadaw U Nyanissara continued with the story as mentioned in the Commentary. When Maara had fled and the rain had stopped, the Buddha asked Dhaniya and his wife to follow him to Saavatthi, if they wanted to join the Order. The Buddha then returned to Saavatthi. Dhaniya and his wife followed on foot. When they arrived at Saavatthi they became bhikkhu and bhikkhuni, and went separately to the secluded places to meditate. Here, Sayadaw spoke the standard expression of becoming an arahant: dwelling alone (eko viharato), withdrawn (vuupaka.t.tho), diligent (appamatto), ardent (aataapii), and resolute (pahitatto), and in no time (nacirasseva) both of them became arahants. When their children knew about this, they invited the two arahants to their place, and they refurbished the cattle shed into a monastery for the two arahants to reside. That building became known as the "gopaalaka vihaara" (cowherd monastery). This is the end of Dhaniya sutta. with metta, Han #104663 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 5. szmicio Dear Nina, So sacca ~n~nana can be reflection after reading Sutta? For example when I hear unpleasant words and usually get angry, but this time I read Sutta. And there is said that this is only vipaka of what we get. And afterwards instantly my anger is gone, and mind is reflecting vipaka and kamma as non-Self and out of control. Isnt it sacca ~nana? Another example, I consider very often. Long long ago I was thinking my grandma gonna die, my mom gonna die, all my close friends and family gonna die. I was crying for so long. But now I know I had this opportunity to hear Dhamma in my life. And now I know intelectually about dosa. That when it appears it's gonna to grieve. I have no direct understanding but now I dont cry anymore. Feel like a lot of wrong view is gonne. Isn't it sacca ~nana? There is a some kind of detechment even because of intelectuall consideration. I would be happy if you continue sacca,kicca and kata nana in Bkk with Khun Sujin. > > So it seems that pariyatti, patipati and pativeda is different then > > sacca, kicca and kata ~nana. Could you say more on this? > -------- > N: They are similar, but sacca, kicca and kata ~nana are more > specifically referred to with regard to the four noble Truths. > --------- L: Nina, could you quote some passages from Commentaries when you come across such passages? It can be very helpful to me. > > L: Where can we put kusala reflection on Dhamma, 4 Noble Truths? > > > > Some of this reflections, could brings some liberation. > --------- > N: Only if reflection is seen as a conditioned naama that is non- > self, thus, when there is awareness and right understanding of such > reflection. > We may forget this, don't we? > --------- L: Oh yeah. Only few moments in life. The rest is akusala. > > L: Like considering vipaka and kamma in daily life after reading > > sutta. Is it not the sacca ~nana, or maybe pariyatti? > ------ > N: Pariyatti always pertains to the present reality, and so does > sacca ~naa.na. They are much more than just considering the dhamma. > -------- L: Nice. Could you also give some more details on pariyatti when you have time? > > L: I could feel that this very graduall kind of reflection, that > > can be made by kusala citta can develop sati in the future. > ------- > N: Better not think about this, it conditions wishing! There is > always the present reality as Ken H says. L: I think also Ken 0 mentions it a lot. > I heard on a recording that Kh Sujin says that she speaks about > realities because people think of the future, of concepts and then > get disturbed. Like me: how will this go, what if Lodewijk... No use. > Just being disturbed by concepts, lost in the sea of concepts. L: But it happens. What can I do to think less? Best wishes Lukas #104664 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (9) nilovg Dear Han, Thank you very much for this beautiful sutta and commentary. Again the opposites of nandati and soceti are very striking. From attachment comes sorrow. Less attachment less sorrow. Still, we are conditioned to have attachment to husband, to family and friends. Great sorrow when we lose them. But again, there is one citta at a time and that is the world where we live. This helps to some extent, but best is to develop time and again more understanding of realities instead of thinking continuously of concepts of people and mourning them. A hard task. Nina. Op 25-jan-2010, om 13:30 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > You can see the best play of word by the Buddha on Maara's verse > with an opposite meaning. Verse (16) and Verse (17) are almost the > same, but while Maara spoke to Dhaniya about the delight (nandati) > of having children, cattle, and acquisitions, the Buddha spoke > about the grief (socati) of having children, cattle and acquisitions. #104665 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 5. ashkenn2k Dear Lukas it is natural to think a lot of future, about many many things. It is due to our accumalations. I also have many many thinking of my future, my work, my life etc. It take time for panna to develop. Do not be concern of what we are now, whether we are very easily angry (like me) or easily attached to beautiful objects (also like me), because they are due to our accumulations and it conditions the way we think. It is the function of citta to think so we cannot avoid it. When you think, just understand it is thinking. If you want to do something to think less, understand it as lobha. When you are concern, just understand it as dosa. If you cannot, then just understand it as one citta at a time. When you understand one citta at a time, your grasping of a self will slowly be eroded. When these dont work just remember this : it takes Buddha 4 incalculable aeons and one thousand aeons to be Buddha. So we should be patient and courageous also. This remind me of AS who said that in the audio recordings - be patient and courageous. Listen to the discussions if possible from the www.dhammastudygroup.org. If you do not understand certain discussion, you could ask me. Just name me the discussion date and clippings. I like the audio recordings because I could listen to it when I travel in public transport or when I go out especially shopping with my wife :-). Cheers Ken O > >> I heard on a recording that Kh Sujin says that she speaks about >> realities because people think of the future, of concepts and then >> get disturbed. Like me: how will this go, what if Lodewijk... No use. >> Just being disturbed by concepts, lost in the sea of concepts. > >L: But it happens. What can I do to think less? > >Best wishes >Lukas > > #104666 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:24 pm Subject: Re: VsM teaches formal meditation truth_aerator Dear Lukas, KenH, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Nice, you had been quoted it before. > This is really a perfect teaching. but not all people can develop >object of anapanasati. Very hard. Buddha wouldn't teach anapanasati so often if it was that hard. Also VsM listed 39 more subjects of samadhi. >Some people on a group are not able to develop this and belive me >they really tried it for so many years. > So what would yo say? They may have done something incorrectly or they may need another kamatthana, 39 to choose from. But in any case, VsM does talk about directed effort. Only Arahants can do things without any craving. So if we are stuck with having craving latent, we may as well crave for kusala. With metta, Alex #104667 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:29 pm Subject: Re: VsM teaches formal meditation truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > ----------- > <. . .> > > The VsM does talk about <. . .> formal practice. > ------------ > > That is impossible. In reality there can be either conditioned >dhammas or formal practices. There can't be both. What prevents practice and doing something rather than hiding oneself and allowing onslaught of kilesas to occur (a much more natural phenomena, to give-in to akusala)? Are you teaching fatalism? > The Vsm says there are conditioned dhammas. End of story! :-) > > Ken H And VsM talks about going to the secluded place, sitting crosslegged and doing anapanasati (or other practices). With metta, Alex #104668 From: Lukas Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM teaches formal meditation szmicio Dear Alex, Ken H > The Vsm says there are conditioned dhammas. End of story! :-) > > Ken H A: And VsM talks about going to the secluded place, sitting crosslegged and doing anapanasati (or other practices). L: Those are concepts. The ruupa and nama can be known. But those concepts can condition development. Buddha knew how different concepts condition Dhamma. So this is good to read Thera comments. Best wishes Lukas #104669 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 5. szmicio Dear Ken O, Thank you for yourkind help my friend. I enjoy your reminders very much, your Acharn's quotations from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas and Concepts and realities. I appreciate Acharn's one citta at a time. > Listen to the discussions if possible from the www.dhammastudygroup.org. If you do not understand certain discussion, you could ask me. Just name me the discussion date and clippings. L: this is very kind of you Ken. maybe if you want we can speak off-list. I can share with you some of my daily life stories, maybe it can also support you. >K: I like the audio recordings because I could listen to it when I >travel in public transport or when I go out especially shopping with my wife :-). L: I also used to listen to it while sitting at my University or while driving a bus. But I dont have mp3 player anymore. Best wishes Lukas #104670 From: "Andrew" Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:09 pm Subject: Andrew L's question on future lives purist_andrew Hi Friends, Long time no see. I know there is a lot we disagree on, especially about the idea of "intentional" practice or the wisdom of deciding yourself to engage in certain practices or behaviors for trying to be more aware and "wrong view of self" and so on but I still greatly respect you guys and your knowledge of the Dhamma. Even when not posting continuously to this group I still somewhat frequently read the Useful posts section and find it a great resource. I am continuously thinking about the parami and satipatthana. But today, my question is this: Considering that it may take us many lives of developing the perfections for enlightenment, we try to put the causes into play for a fortunate rebirth immediately following this one by practicing generosity and morality and so on to allow opportunities for practice, as of course we cannot develop ourselves in the woeful plane... I hear much about this idea from different parties, BUT... on top of that, how can we ensure that we will encounter and pursue the Dhamma in future lives? Or at least incline that way, what are the conditions. Instead of getting "lost" in samsara and not practicing in the future. I have read that faith, generosity, morality, and wisdom and so on are the qualities leading to a fortunate future birth, but are these (especially faithful conviction in the Buddha's enlightenment and the principle of kamma) sufficient to incline us towards the Dhamma in the next life? Or what will attract us to that path? This seems to me to be an important question that may be overlooked. I have read in some of Bhikkhu Bodhi's work that taking refuge and the precepts predisposes one to seek future sasanas of the Buddha, so that is another possible factor. And so on... What do you guys think? Regards, Andrew L #104671 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: VsM teaches formal meditation truth_aerator Dear Lukas, KenH, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear Alex, Ken H > > > The Vsm says there are conditioned dhammas. End of story! :-) > > > > Ken H > >A: And VsM talks about going to the secluded place, sitting >crosslegged and doing anapanasati (or other practices). > > L: Those are concepts. True. But so is everything in mundane world. Just because car is a concept, it doesn't mean that it is safe to jump under it! >The ruupa and nama can be known. True. And in VsM there are 40 kamatthana to do that. With best wishes, Alex #104672 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:10 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Ken O, you wrote: D: Ken, we need to work with our more or less developed/deluded state of wisdom ... As I understand you seem to presume what indeed has to be developed by the 3 fold Noble Path training: sila -samadhi -panna. The point of anatta is only fully realized by deep penetration , because it means (Khanda) detachment , finally only managed by the Arahant. Before it is belief of the intellect still waiting for real insight and it will be a (micca) ditthi , when one may conclude : as ultimately there is no I/self any intentional effort is fruitless..` KO: All dhamma are not self, that is spoken by the Buddha. The difference between an Arahant and us is they have understood it, while us due to our ignorance, it has blinded us from seeing it. It is the natural characteristic of dhamma. Hence there is no need to do any intentional effort. D: Ken, that sounds to me like a physicist telling me : give up self delusion because there is no self in quantum! Does that help me to develop dispassion towards feelings I meet in my (conventional ) world? K0: The arisen of seeing is a natural phenomena. Do you need to intentional see to see? The learning of the path, the guarding, the restrain, the protection is only possible when panna arise. That is call effort, the understanding of sense citta as it arise. No special effort to it because effort arise naturally with each citta. Effort could be kusala and akusala. With arising of panna, effort is definitely kusala. please read following excerpt with an open mind (' Uninstructed ' S.N. XII , 61 , transl. TB) I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there. "But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. "It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. "The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:... snip and S.N. XII .65 The City ( excerpt) please see in full http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.htm ......."In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path. "Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings." Please note by 'following that path ...' KO: That is only one word to describe all his statement "Panna". With the arisen of panna, akusala citta could not arise and at the same time latency being eradicated. When there is no arisen of aksuala, there would be no aksuala behaviour like killing, stealing, false speech at that moment. Mindfulness only guards the mind, it does not understand the meaning of anatta. Only panna understand the meaning of anatta. When one doe not realise it all boils down to panna, one keep using many words to describe what is mindfulness and what is kusala. When one realise it is all depends on panna, then the mind is not distracted with other things, it is concentrated on an interest to strive to develop panna, it has faith on the teachings, it has patience, and at the same time it wards away aksuala behaviour like lobha, conceit etc.. D: well, one needs panna (in particular insight of anicca, dukkha and anatta) to get rid off ignorance (avijja) , and for the disciple the instruction to realize that means the sila, samadhi , panna Path training. Seemingly you assume to obtain that without the instructions of practise and its translation by one's effort.. with Metta Dieter #104673 From: Lukas Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM teaches formal meditation szmicio Dear Alex, > L: Those are concepts. >>A: True. But so is everything in mundane world. Just because car is a concept, it doesn't mean that it is safe to jump under it! L: Concepts impinge in mind-door and they fall away. What appers for a moment is gone. There is no car. The thinking follows and has different objects. Here is less misery. >L: The ruupa and nama can be known.>>A:True. And in VsM there are 40 kamatthana to do that. L: 40 objects. So this is not 40 practices. nor 40 things to do. but 40 objects of meditation. I could not get still the object of metta, to hard for me to grasp. You sit and free your mind of dosa, start to think in this or that way. very hard. If I want to be honest this is the 2nd object, next to anapana that does not work on me. 38 left. Best wishesLukas. P.sI am very distracted by my unsensability to this objects. But I consider them as perfect. There is a glitch with me then. #104674 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 5. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 25-jan-2010, om 19:02 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: Lukas to Ken O: > maybe if you want we can speak off-list. I can share with you some > of my daily life stories, maybe it can also support you. ------ N: why not share with all of us, we all like to be supported. I find daily life stories with Dhamma very encouraging. Nina. #104675 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Andrew L's question on future lives nilovg Dear Andrew L, Op 25-jan-2010, om 19:09 heeft Andrew het volgende geschreven: > how can we ensure that we will encounter and pursue the Dhamma in > future lives? Or at least incline that way, what are the > conditions. Instead of getting "lost" in samsara and not practicing > in the future. ------ N: It depends on past kamma where we will be reborn, we cannot control past kamma, it has been done already. The only thing: develop a little more understanding now, it will grow very gradually. If we think all the time of a favorable future birth, this may be disturbing, and lobha comes in. Or aversion, we may have fear of death and rebirth. It is good to perform as much kusala as we can, but not for our own sake. We may be thinking of others more, and not expect any gain for ourselves. Then it can be a parami. Kusala is kusala and we may see its value. ------- Nina. #104676 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:59 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Ken H and All, you wrote: (D: I am wondering whether , when you reflect now what you have written , you do see that by the wording ,you are providing an example what has to be avoided (revile an international highly revered Buddhist monk) and/ or to overcome ( the obvious bitterness due to some previous experience of yours) KH: I wonder if you are right when you say I "revile internationally revered Buddhist monks." I certainly disagree with conventional versions of Buddhism, and so I am not impressed by people who disseminate those versions. (The Dalai Lama, for example.) But is disagreeing the same as reviling? D: it shouldn 't when being mindful of right speech.. let us look again at your statement: "Honestly, Dieter, when you read A. Cha's lecture, what does it tell you that you didn't already know? The honest answer is 'nothing' isn't it? Just words! Conventional religions and self-help industries use empty, high-sounding words to give their target audiences a brief hit of hope. They offer the dream of becoming a better person - or a more enlightened person. The brief hit of hope inevitably ends in disappointment and self recrimination, but the audience is addicted, and so they keep coming back for more. It's the oldest trick in the book, and it has kept conventional religions going for thousands of years. I'll stop there because I know I am wasting my breath, but . . . I had to say something." You put this (late) revered monk - who many see as a splendid Dhamma teacher in the state of nobility- within the same boat of the self help industry selling by empty, high-sounding words short lived hopes , ending inevitably in disappointment and self recrimination, don't you? But let us ask DSG forum or even better the coming Bangkok meeting whether above is a revilement/abuse or not... KH: Some people at DSG are trying to explain the Dhamma *as it is found in the ancient Pali texts.* These people encounter constant disagreement from other members who prefer modern, conventional, interpretations. But are they necessarily being "reviled" by those other members? Are the Theras who composed the ancient commentaries necessarily being "reviled" by members who prefer modern commentaries? I think we just have to remember that there is the right way and there is the wrong way - there is the true Dhamma and there is the false Dhamma. The two do not mix! We must not be deterred in our efforts to learn the true Dhamma. We must not be put off by accusations of "reviling respected monks." D: Ken this list is stated to be a Theravada ( Teaching of the Elders) Buddhist list , i.e. its base is the Pali Canon.. and the decision whether true or false Dhamma depends on what has been said and what not according to the Tipitaka.. I have some doubt now whether you belong to this community ..? with Metta Dieter #104677 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: VsM teaches formal meditation ksheri3 Hi Lukas, Rather "racey", no? How can the cart be BEFORE the horse which pulls it? > "You sit and free your mind of dosa, ..." What is DOSA? You've boxed yourself into a corner here focusing on this thing called DOSA as the CREATOR of this OBJECT. IF there are no OBJECTS from the start, THEN how can a simple meditator free their mind of something that does not exist? Is DOSA RESULTANT from the object you are trying to relate to Alex? Where is dosa if not from that object? Either Dosa exists before that object exists or your premise and theory are nothing more than CIRCULAR LOGIC aka the BLIND leading the BLIND. > P.sI am very distracted by my unsensability to this objects. But I consider them as perfect. There is a glitch with me then. colette: WHAT? Distracted by something that does not exist? You cognize that you have distractions. ARe these distractions Dosa? ARe they Kusala? MAYBE, they are nothing more than LOBHA. Heaven forbid, maybe they are MOSA? How can you reasonably engage in conversation if you you know full well that you alone possess this "unsensability" And you contradict the matter by suggesting that this 'unsensability' is IN YOUR OPINION, "perfect". <...> interesting perspectives you have here and how those in Hong Kong are above the rest of us. I guess, if they were in America we'd be forced to deal with this "Americanization" of the world, and the imperialism of Americans, etc. Isn't it interesting, though, how this works? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > L: Those are concepts. >>A: True. But so is everything in mundane world. Just because car is a concept, it doesn't mean that it is safe to jump under it! > > > L: Concepts impinge in mind-door and they fall away. What appers for a moment is > gone. <...> #104678 From: han tun Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (9) hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: Thank you very much for this beautiful sutta and commentary. Again the opposites of nandati and soceti are very striking. From attachment comes sorrow. Less attachment less sorrow. Still, we are conditioned to have attachment to husband, to family and friends. Great sorrow when we lose them. But again, there is one citta at a time and that is the world where we live. This helps to some extent, but best is to develop time and again more understanding of realities instead of thinking continuously of concepts of people and mourning them. A hard task. Han: I like your comments very much. It also brings back to me your wise comments when I wrote [Dhammapada Verse 212 and No. 354 Uraga-Jataka]. > Nina: Here we see that he did not merely think: I have to die one day. Then there is still 'I'. He went through all the stages of insight, including realizing the momentary impermanence of naama and ruupa. In becoming a sotaapanna his outlook on life radically changed. He would still have sorrow, but it would help him to know that whatever he experiences is only a conditioned dhamma. > Nina: It is the truth of life and that is dukkha. As I mentioned before, when asking Kh Sujin about preparing for a great loss, she will not hear about this, very wisely. She explains that it is better to investigate what is appearing now, like seeing. We take it so much for my seeing. We never know what the next moment will bring. It may be great sadness and distress, but also these are realities arising because of conditions, they do not belong to us. Very useful comments! Thank you once again, Nina. Respectfully, Han #104679 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:57 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau Hi Dieter, -------------- <. . .> D: > You put this (late) revered monk - who many see as a splendid Dhamma teacher in the state of nobility- within the same boat of the self help industry selling by empty, high-sounding words short lived hopes , ending inevitably in disappointment and self recrimination, don't you? --------------- Yes, and the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Dalia Lama . . . . . the list goes on and on. Anyone who portrays conventional truth as ultimate truth! But, as I was saying before, I don't mean to "revile" those people. They are nice, respectable people, but with tendencies for wrong view. It is the wrong view that is criticised in a Dhamma discussion, not the [imagined] person who has it. ------------------------- D: > But let us ask DSG forum or even better the coming Bangkok meeting whether above is a revilement/abuse or not... ------------------------- You can if you like, but that is not the way we do things at DSG (or at the Bangkok meetings). It would be better to ask your question in general terms. Ask, for example, "Is bhavana (samatha and vipassana) something that can be practised at will? And, if not, would it be wrong to disagree with anyone (respected or otherwise) who taught that bhavana *could* be practised at will?" Or you could ask, "In ultimate truth and reality, is *anything* *ever* practised, or done, at will?' There are two types of Buddhist teacher, aren't there? One type will answer that second question unequivocally, "No - everything can be explained as just fleeting, impersonal, mental and physical phenomena - not under any form of control whatsoever." The other type will either answer "yes" or will equivocate. As I was saying before, there is the true Dhamma and there is false Dhamma. Let's not be reluctant to distinguish one from the other. --------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > We must not be deterred in our efforts to learn the true Dhamma. We must not be put off by accusations of "reviling respected monks." D: > Ken this list is stated to be a Theravada ( Teaching of the Elders) Buddhist list , i.e. its base is the Pali Canon.. and the decision whether true or false Dhamma depends on what has been said and what not according to the Tipitaka.. --------------------------- Sorry, Dieter, I can't quite see the point you are making, so I will skip that bit. ------------------------------------- D: > I have some doubt now whether you belong to this community ..? -------------------------------------- :-) Well, I am glad that you feel free to say so. Keep it up. Ken H #104680 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:32 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary truth_aerator Hello KenH, all, > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > Hi Dieter, > > -------------- > Yes, and the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Dalia Lama . . . . . >the list goes on and on. Anyone who portrays conventional truth as >ultimate truth! But, as I was saying before, I don't mean to >"revile" those people. They are nice, respectable people, but with >tendencies for wrong view. It is the wrong view that is criticised >in a Dhamma discussion, not the [imagined] person who has it. > And do you have the right view, KenH? Do you understand Dhamma better than Ajahn Chah? Do you believe that nothing can be done, so no use trying to develop (bhavana) wholesome (kusala) qualities? With metta, Alex #104681 From: "charlest" Date: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:40 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary dhammasaro Good friend Dieter Moeller, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > >... snip > > D: [Name deleted] this list is stated to be a Theravada ( Teaching of the Elders) Buddhist list , i.e. its base is the Pali Canon.. and the decision whether true or false Dhamma depends on what has been said and what not according to the Tipitaka.. > > > C: FWIW, over the many years since joining in 2001, I strongly felt the same. Far, far too, too many incidences have I felt I was at a Mādhyamikas Buddha list; rather, than at a Theravadin Buddha list!!! >... snip > > with Metta Dieter > peace... metta (maitri), Chuck #104682 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: VsM teaches formal meditation szmicio Hi Colette, > > "You sit and free your mind of dosa, ..." > > What is DOSA? You've boxed yourself into a corner here focusing on this thing called DOSA as the CREATOR of this OBJECT. IF there are no OBJECTS from the start, THEN how can a simple meditator free their mind of something that does not exist? Is DOSA RESULTANT from the object you are trying to relate to Alex? Where is dosa if not from that object? Either Dosa exists before that object exists or your premise and theory are nothing more than CIRCULAR LOGIC aka the BLIND leading the BLIND. L:I mean object of dosa that may be a concept(or can it be nama or ruupa), and object/subject of meditiation, that is eradiction of dosa and metta development. The meditator that is skillful in those object can develop metta no matter something is real/ exist or not. So I consider myself as not to be skillful in this object. > > P.sI am very distracted by my unsensability to this objects. But I consider them as perfect. There is a glitch with me then. > > colette: WHAT? Distracted by something that does not exist? You cognize that you have distractions. ARe these distractions Dosa? ARe they Kusala? MAYBE, they are nothing more than LOBHA. Heaven forbid, maybe they are MOSA? L: I think asavas, vipalasa, kilesa THIS IS ALL we can call distractions. > How can you reasonably engage in conversation if you you know full well that you alone possess this "unsensability" And you contradict the matter by suggesting that this 'unsensability' is IN YOUR OPINION, "perfect". L: Colette, I mean that 40 objects are perfect, even I cannot develop them. What Alex had been quoted befor from Vsm on impediments and monasteries wheather they are good for development. This is so perfect. I can say you I had thought on those impediments and monasteries before. And when heard this for the first time, this looks so accurate. Text's are going with my expectations. > <...> > interesting perspectives you have here and how those in Hong Kong are above the rest of us. I guess, if they were in America we'd be forced to deal with this "Americanization" of the world, and the imperialism of Americans, etc. > > Isn't it interesting, though, how this works? L: What can be interesting in that? Maybe pleasant feelings and nice mental states are more intersting? Best wishes Lukas #104683 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 5. szmicio Dear Nina, > Lukas to Ken O: > > maybe if you want we can speak off-list. I can share with you some > > of my daily life stories, maybe it can also support you. > ------ > N: why not share with all of us, we all like to be supported. I find > daily life stories with Dhamma very encouraging. L: I had just simple stories, how many Lukas's arise during a day. And how they fall away instantly. Different moment different Lukas, one for each moment. Lukas that is speaking, and then it's gone. Somethin bad said and it's gone instantly. vacisankhara conditioned by moha. socati, this is later. Just different realities. Nina there are issuse I wanna to rise in my questions to Acharn. Like metta object for devlopment and karuna object for devlopment. In my life I cannot get karuna or metta while sitting and applaying the object like desc. in Vsm. But I can feel so much metta and karuna to people during the day. metta cause I see how kusala easily arise with me. The guy who is beating his wife. I could feel it with him. I saw all kinds of akusala in my life and now I know this is very conditioned. I have no bad thoughts on him or anyone. Or if I had, conditioned, then just give me a metta please. And karuna(compassion) to all people that does not understand 4 Noble Truths, or dont even heard them. Best wishes Lukas #104684 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:08 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Right mindfulness is another factor of the eightfold Path. As I explained in chapter seven, there are many levels of mindfulness. There is mindfulness with each kusala citta and its function is to be heedful, non-forgetful of what is wholesome. Mindfulness is a factor of the eightfold Path when it accompanies right understanding of the eightfold Path. There may be theoretical understanding of realities acquired through reading and thinking. One may think in the right way of the phenomena of life which are impermanent and non-self. However, in order to directly experience the truth there must be mindfulness of the reality which appears at the present moment. The moment of mindfulness is extremely short, it falls away immediately. However, during that moment understanding can investigate the characteristic of the reality which appears, and in this way understanding can develop very gradually. Right understanding arises together with right mindfulness, but they have each a different function. Right mindfulness is heedful, attentive or conscious of the reality which appears but it does not investigate its nature. It is the function of right understanding to investigate and penetrate the true nature of the reality which appears at the present moment. Right concentration is another factor of the eightfold Path. Concentration or one-pointedness is a mental factor arising with each citta. Citta experiences only one object at a time and concentration has the function to focus on that one object which citta experiences. Concentration can accompany kusala citta, akusala citta and citta which is neither kusala nor akusala. Right concentration is concentration which is wholesome. There are many kinds and degrees of right concentration. As we have seen in chapter 7, there is right concentration in tranquil meditation. When calm is developed to the extent that absorption is attained, there is a high degree of concentration which focuses on the meditation subject. There are no more sense impressions such as seeing or hearing and defilements are temporarily subdued. There is also right concentration in the development of direct understanding of realities. The Path factor right concentration accompanies right understanding of the eightfold Path. It focuses rightly on the reality which appears at the present moment and which is the object of right understanding. ****** Nina. #104685 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:11 am Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 16. nilovg Dear Han and friends, Here is the last section of part II. Han, in the Pali text there is a passage about killing not being manokamma used for an explanation I did not get, and therefore I omitted it. Perhaps you understand it? ------------ [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 16. Question: Are the two feelings that are desirable objects (ihrammaa) not objects of aversion? Answer: This cannot be said. In the person whose jhna has declined unpleasant feeling arises on account of the two feelings [19] that can accompany jhnacitta, because he regrets this. Unhappy feeling arises because he reflects on the decline of the desirable objects he had obtained, or on the fact that he did not obtain them. This is only unpleasant feeling, not the latent tendency of aversion. The latent tendency of aversion is a strong defilement that arises on account of affliction by an unpleasant object. Therefore, in this case, though aversion arises together with unhappy feeling, it is not a basis for the latent tendency of aversion. It does not perform its own function as such, it is negligable. Evenso on account of renunciation, aversion with unpleasant feeling may arise and the Buddha said that a person should abandon aversion accompanied by such kind of unpleasant feeling. Renunciation is a pleasant object, but aversion arising on account of it is not a foundation for the latent tendency of aversion. In this way it should be understood to which dhamma the latent tendency of aversion adheres. Although it is said that the latent tendency of aversion that arises may have pleasant feeling, indifferent feeling or dhammas belonging to rpa-jhna as object, these are not objects aversion attaches weight to. Therefore, it was not said that in that case aversion continues to be accumulated as a latent tendency. As we have seen, when someone whose skill to attain jhna declines, and aversion may arise on account of happy feeling or indifferent feeling that accompany the jhnacitta but that are no more. Since these two feelings are not the usual objects of aversion, aversion is not accumulated as latent tendency. Therefore, it is said: The latent tendency of aversion is a strong defilement that arises on account of affliction by an unpleasant object. Thus, in this case, though aversion arises together with unhappy feeling, it is not the latent tendency of aversion. It does not perform its own function of aversion, it is negligable. When it is said that the latent tendencies adhere to feeling and to objects, this does not mean that the latent tendencies arise and perform functions. It means that, so long as there are latent tendencies, there are conditions for the arising of medium defilements (pariyutthna kilesa, arising with akusala citta) and coarse defilements (vitikkama kilesa, transgressions). These are accompanied by feeling and the other dhammas that arise at such moments. When the objects that are appropriate conditions for the arising of the relevant medium defilements, thus, objects they attach weight to and that are the usual objects for them, then the medium defilements are powerful and they cause the continuation of the latent tendencies concerned. ------- Pali text commentary: ki.m pana itaraa dve vedanaa i.t.thaaramma.na.m vaa pa.tighassa aaramma.na.m na hontiiti? no na honti. parihiinajjhaanassa vippa.tisaaravasena sasampayuttadhammaa taa vedanaa aarabbha domanassa.m uppajjati. i.t.thaaramma.nassa ca pa.tiladdhassa vipari.naama.m vaa appa.tiladdhassa appa.tilaabha.m vaa samanussaratopi domanassa.m uppajjati. domanassamattameva pana ta.m hoti, na pa.tighaanusayo. pa.tighaanusayo hi ani.t.thaaramma.ne pa.tiha~n~nanavasena uppanno thaamagato kileso, tasmaa ettha domanassena saddhi.m pa.tigho uppannopi attano pa.tighakicca.m akara.nabhaavena eva pa.tighaanusayo na hoti abbohaarikatta.m gacchati. yathaa hi paa.naatipaatacetanaaya saddhi.m uppannopi byaapaado manokamma.m naama na hoti abbohaarikatta.m gacchati, eva.m pa.tighaanusayo na hoti, abbohaarikatta.m gacchati. vuttampi ceta.m ekacca.m i.t.thaaramma.na.m nekkhammasitampi vaa domanassa.m sandhaaya ``ya.m evaruupa.m domanassa.m pa.tigha.m tena pajahati na tattha pa.tighaanusayo anusetii''ti (ma0 ni0 1.465). eva.m pa.tighaanusayassa anusayana.t.thaana.m veditabba.m. footnote : 19. Jhnacittas can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling and these are desirable objects. But when jhna has declined, one may think of them with regret and then there is dosa-mlacitta accompanied by unhappy feeling. In this case the aversion that arises is not accumulated as a latent tendency. (end of Part II) ________ Nina. #104686 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:28 am Subject: Re: PHANTASMS, no? sarahprocter... Dear Connie, Thank you for the following: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > I think when I said "grey area" it was because I was missing something when reading "The Great Discourse on Causation", too, but here's a little more light -- quoting Nina's note in #25922 (Dhamma Issue 13, Devas reborn with an ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta.) -- > > 5. Footnote by Ven. Bodhi: << Ordinarily the "beings in the lower realms", vinipaatika, are identified with the denizens of the four planes of misery. But here the term is used to refer to other classes of beings outside the planes of misery.>> > The plane of Petas, ghosts, and the plane of Asuras, demons, are unhappy planes, but in some cases the words peta and asura are used for devas of the lowest class. A peta with a heavenly mansion or palace, vimaana, is a vemaanika peta. This peta is a deva of the lowest class of the "Four Great Kings". > (Translated from Thai) > ... S: Yes, this makes sense of the "grey area". It's all rather "beyond" me in more senses than one and the kind of detail I read and then forget, puzzle over and forget again.... What makes sense are the various "realms" arising now from moment to moment - heavenly, ghostly, with some rooted clues and then clueless again... fantasies and phantasms....it's all a dream, a nimitta world. Metta Sarah ========= #104687 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Three rounds, Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 6. nilovg Dear Lukas and friends, Text: The knowledge and vision then arose in me - 'Unshakable is liberation in me, this is my last birth, now there is no more existence again'. Thus said the Blessed One. Delighted, the monks of the group of five rejoiced in the Blessed One's words. Then when this explication was being spoken, there arose in the venerable Konda~n~na the vision of the Dhamma, free from defilement or stain - "Whatever is subject to arising, all that is subject to cessation". -------- Pali: ~naa.na~nca pana me dassana.m udapaadi - 'akuppaa me vimutti, aya.m antimaa jaati, natth'idaani punabbhavo'"ti. Idamavoca Bhagavaa. Attamanaa pa~ncavaggiyaa bhikkhuu Bhagavato bhaasita.m abhinandunti. Imasmi~nca pana veyyaakara.nasmi.m bha~n~namaane aayasmato Ko.n.da~n~nassa viraja.m viitamala.m dhammacakkhu.m udapaadi - "ya.m ki~nci samudayadhamma.m, sabba.m ta.m nirodhadhamman"ti. ---------- Commentary: In twelve ways: this refers to three rounds of each of the (four) truths. Knowledge and vision (~naa.nadassanam) : the vision that is reckoned as the knowledge arisen concerning the three rounds in twelve ways. The eye of dhamma (dhammacakkhu): elsewhere this refers to the three maggas and three fruitions (phalas) but here it means the first Path. ------ Pali: Dvaadasaakaaranti tesa.myeva ekekasmi.m sacce ti.n.na.m ti.n.na.m aakaaraana.m vasena dvaadasaakaara.m. ~Naa.nadassananti etesa.m tipariva.t.taana.m dvaadasanna.m aakaaraana.m vasena uppanna~naa.nasa`nkhaata.m dassana.m. Dhammacakkhunti a~n~nattha tayo maggaa tii.ni ca phalaani dhammacakkhu naama honti, idha pa.thamamaggova. ------------ N: Thus, in other suttas the eye of dhamma refers to the magga- cittas and phalacittas (lokuttara kusala cittas and lokuttara vipaakacittas) of the first three stages of enlightenment, thus not of the arahat, the fourth and last stage. Here it refers to the first stage, the stage of the sotaapanna. Of the sotaapanna it is often said that he realizes "Whatever is subject to arising, all that is subject to cessation" (ya.mki~nci samudayadhamma.m, sabba.m ta.m nirodhadhamman"ti.) This is direct understanding of the arising of dhammas and their passing away according to conditions as explained in the Dependent Origination. So long as there is ignorance, the first link of the Dependent Origination, there will be the arising of dhammas in the cycle of birth and death. When ignorance has been eradicated it means the end of the cycle. -------- Nina. #104688 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:47 pm Subject: Notes about the three rounds, no 1. nilovg Dear Lukas, I made notes about the three rounds, using old mails, including those from Sarah. I will now post them again. sacca ~naa.na (firm understanding what they are), kicca ~naa.na (developing direct understanding of them) and kata-~naa.na (direct realization of them at enlightenment). The first round is already difficult enough for us beginners. We read: in short the five khandhas of grasping are dukkha. That is, nama and rupa. They fall away and thus they are dukkha. But first we have to know what nama and rupa are. They have unalterable characteristics, no matter how we name them. They appear one at a time, through one of the six doors. I repeat what Kh Sujin said about the second truth: from morning until night we are seeking things for ourselves, also at this moment. Do we not want comfort, freedom from pain? We are hungry and are seeking food. All the time we want things for ourselves. This seeking and trying to get things keep us in the cycle. When we realise this more in our life we can also acquire some idea of what freedom from such craving could be, the third noble Truth. We have to know the right Path, the fourth noble Truth, and that is the development of understanding of nama and rupa that appear. (We need truthfulness, sincerity, otherwise we delude ourselves. When lobha motivates the development, if we are attached to having more awareness and are trying with the idea of self, even a little, we are deviating from the Path. I think we cannot be reminded enough that the goal is detachment, detachment from the idea of self. )We listen to have more understanding and it is understanding, not us, that is able to eradicate clinging. We have to be firmly convinced of what the right Path and that is awareness and understanding of what appears now, no matter how unpleasant or how akusala it is. --------- Nina. #104689 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:42 pm Subject: Re: Notes about the three rounds, no 1. szmicio Dear Nina, > sacca ~naa.na (firm understanding what they are), > kicca ~naa.na (developing direct understanding of them) > and kata-~naa.na (direct realization of them at enlightenment). > > The first round is already difficult enough for us beginners. We > read: in short the five khandhas of grasping are dukkha. That is, > nama and rupa. They fall away and thus they are dukkha. But first we > have to know what nama and rupa are. They have unalterable > characteristics, no matter how we name them. They appear one at a > time, through one of the six doors. > I repeat what Kh Sujin said about the second truth: from morning > until night we are seeking things for ourselves, also at this moment. > Do we not want comfort, freedom from pain? We are hungry and are > seeking food. All the time we want things for ourselves. This seeking > and trying to get things keep us in the cycle. L: I like this. This is very true also in my life. >When we realise this > more in our life we can also acquire some idea of what freedom from > such craving could be, the third noble Truth. > We have to know the right Path, the fourth noble Truth, and that is > the development of understanding of nama and rupa that appear. > (We need truthfulness, sincerity, otherwise we delude ourselves. When > lobha motivates the development, if we are attached to having more > awareness and are trying with the idea of self, even a little, we are > deviating from the Path. I think we cannot be reminded enough that the > goal is detachment, detachment from the idea of self. )We listen to > have more understanding and it is understanding, not us, that is able > to eradicate clinging. We have to be firmly convinced of what the > right Path and that is awareness and understanding of what appears > now, no matter how unpleasant or how akusala it is. L: if we consider lobha at a present moment, is this sacca ~nana? Best wishes Lukas #104690 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:30 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Ken H, All, I think we still should go on and try to see eachother's view.. you wrote: (D: > You put this (late) revered monk - who many see as a splendid Dhamma teacher in the state of nobility- within the same boat of the self help industry selling by empty, high-sounding words short lived hopes , ending inevitably in disappointment and self recrimination, don't you? ) --------------- Yes, and the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Dalia Lama . . . . . the list goes on and on. Anyone who portrays conventional truth as ultimate truth! But, as I was saying before, I don't mean to "revile" those people. They are nice, respectable people, but with tendencies for wrong view. It is the wrong view that is criticised in a Dhamma discussion, not the [imagined] person who has it. D: So, you say "that Ajahn Cha ,the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Dalia Lama . . . . . the list goes on and on... belong to the self help industry selling by empty, high-sounding words short lived hopes , ending inevitably in disappointment and self recrimination." Ken , are you serious when you continue " But, as I was saying before, I don't mean to "revile" those people. " ? ? KH :"They are nice, respectable people, but with tendencies for wrong view. " . D: and this tendency in your view allows you to judge that they all are "selling empty, high-sounding words short lived hopes , ending inevitably in disappointment and self recrimination." ?? KH: Anyone who portrays conventional truth as ultimate truth! ..snip ....It is the wrong view that is criticised in a Dhamma discussion, not the [imagined] person who has it. D: well , one needs to know what is in your understanding conventional truth and what ulimate truth? ..and then please provide evidence for what Ajahn Cha ,the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Dalia Lama were/ are teaching . In case you are visiting Thailand , go to the North East and tell the people what you stated about Ajahn Cha .. you will learn something about 'imagined persons' , believe me ;-) KH: (D: But let us ask DSG forum or even better the coming Bangkok meeting whether above is a revilement/abuse or not...) ------------------------ You can if you like, but that is not the way we do things at DSG (or at the Bangkok meetings). It would be better to ask your question in general terms. D: who is we , Ken ? I am a DSG member too for quite a while ..and Sarah recently confirmed that of course the list isn't limited to the students 'under the guidance of the Thai Theravadin teacher Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket'. B.T.W. I remember that K.S. is a wellknown Dhamma teacher in Thailand and certainly a nice lady who - I believe - would see immidiately the akusala kamma in your remark. .. KH: Ask, for example, "Is bhavana (samatha and vipassana) something that can be practised at will? And, if not, would it be wrong to disagree with anyone (respected or otherwise) who taught that bhavana *could* be practised at will?" D: I know samatha , the state of calm /tranqulity ..not only from the teaching but by own experience ,like many other list members as well. Vipassana, insight is not a point of will ..but the training towards it - vipassana meditation, as it is often called - is. KH: Or you could ask, "In ultimate truth and reality, is *anything* *ever* practised, or done, at will?' D: well in reality I am writing to you now at will ... KH: There are two types of Buddhist teacher, aren't there? One type will answer that second question unequivocally, "No - everything can be explained as just fleeting, impersonal, mental and physical phenomena - not under any form of control whatsoever." The other type will either answer "yes" or will equivocate. D: there may be a lot of other teachers than those two types who will answer with a counter question .. KH:As I was saying before, there is the true Dhamma and there is false Dhamma. Let's not be reluctant to distinguish one from the other. KH: > > We must not be deterred in our efforts to learn the true Dhamma. We must not be put off by accusations of "reviling respected monks." (D: Ken this list is stated to be a Theravada ( Teaching of the Elders) Buddhist list , i.e. its base is the Pali Canon.. and the decision whether true or false Dhamma depends on what has been said and what not according to the Tipitaka..) -------------------------- Sorry, Dieter, I can't quite see the point you are making, so I will skip that bit. D: sorry , Ken .. I confirmed that 'We must not be deterred in our efforts to learn the true Dhamma' : its base is the Pali Canon.. and the decision whether true or false Dhamma depends on what has been said and what not according to the Tipitaka..) (which is as well incl.in the DSG constitution ) KH: (D:> I have some doubt now whether you belong to this community ..?)--------------------- :-) Well, I am glad that you feel free to say so. Keep it up. D: It would be my pleasure to find my doubts- that you count yourself belonging to the community of Theravada Bhuddhism -unfounded .. ;-) with Metta Dieter #104691 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:37 pm Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Re: Notes about the three rounds, no 1. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 26-jan-2010, om 18:42 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > L: if we consider lobha at a present moment, is this sacca ~nana? ------ N: The beginning. We cannot pinpoint whether there is sacca ~naa.na or not yet. BUt just one moment or a few moments is not enough. Moreover, no need to name a moment sacca ~naa.na. Nina. #104692 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:55 pm Subject: Q. Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 5. nilovg Dear Lukas, I took note of your questions for Bgk. If you have more can you give them? I keep them in a file and will print them out to take them along. Op 25-jan-2010, om 14:50 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > So sacca ~n~nana can be reflection after reading Sutta? > For example when I hear unpleasant words and usually get angry, but > this time I read Sutta. And there is said that this is only vipaka > of what we get. And afterwards instantly my anger is gone, and mind > is reflecting vipaka and kamma as non-Self and out of control. Isnt > it sacca ~nana? -------- N: No one else can tell. But sacca ~n~nana is more than reflection. It must be a conviction due to right understanding that has become quite firm, as I said: 'this is what has to be known, this is the Path.' There has to be a very precise understanding of what reality is, and what concept. It is more than just theory, it concerns the present moment all the time. --------- > > L: Another example, I consider very often. > Long long ago I was thinking my grandma gonna die, my mom gonna > die, all my close friends and family gonna die. ... Feel like a lot > of wrong view is gonne. Isn't it sacca ~nana? ------- N: Wrong view is still there as a latent tendency and it can condion the arising of akusala citta with wrong view at any time. Only the sotaapanna has eradicated it. Let us not be mistaken about part of wrong view being gone. It is best to be very realisitic, no illusions. That also goes for detachment: --------- > L: There is a some kind of detechment even because of intelectuall > consideration. > -------------- > > N: > I heard on a recording that Kh Sujin says that she speaks about > > realities because people think of the future, of concepts and then > > get disturbed. Like me: how will this go, what if Lodewijk... No > use. > > Just being disturbed by concepts, lost in the sea of concepts. > > L: But it happens. What can I do to think less? -------- N: Nobody can force himself to stop thinking. But we may see that it is useless, as we more and more understand the benefit of knowing realities instead of thinking of concepts all the time. Seeing this benefit is a condition that stories eventually become shorter. This can happen naturally. ------ Nina. #104693 From: sīlānanda Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:26 pm Subject: Buddhist Websites for Download ... silananda_t Dear Dhammafarers, *A Gift of Dhamma. A way to prolonging the Buddhasasana.* Republish / Distribute on CD / Read Offline / Catalogue in the Library 1. Accesstoinsight.org [version 2010.01.10.22, last updated on Sunday 10 Jan 2010. --- 80 MB ] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tech/download/bulk.html 2. What-Buddha-taught.net [English ~ version 22.Jan.2010 --- 193MB] http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/WhatBuddhataught.zip 3. The Tipitaka at Metta.lk [version 8.2 last updated on 21 December 2009 --- 16.2 MB] - Part of the website. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/tipitaka.zip mahakaruna, silananda #104694 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:23 pm Subject: Q for KS truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > I took note of your questions for Bgk. If you have more can you give > them? I keep them in a file and will print them out to take them >along. Please ask K Sujin what she thinks about: 1) Ajahn Chah 2) Vissudhimagga teachings on Austerities, Dhutanga Niddesa Chapter II 3) Vissudhimagga teachings on Samadhi, Chapter III With metta, Alex #104695 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:22 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau Hi Dieter, Thanks for persevering. --------------- <. . .> D: > Ken , are you serious when you continue " But, as I was saying before, I don't mean to "revile" those people. " ? ? --------------- I certainly am serious when I say that. To my mind, DSG discussions are all about right understanding, and that includes understanding the differences between right path and wrong path. The wrong path is being developed every day by people all around us - including our family and friends. We don't revile those people. But we do understand the terrible implications of their wrong views. ----------------------- KH: > >"They are nice, respectable people, but with tendencies for wrong view. " . D: > and this tendency in your view allows you to judge that they all are "selling empty, high-sounding words short lived hopes , ending inevitably in disappointment and self recrimination." ?? ----------------------- Yes. In the final analysis, wrong view is wrong view no matter how it is presented. There is a slight difference in that the gurus of the self-help industry *deliberately* mislead their audiences. People *want* to be deceived and so the gurus cash in on that demand. Conventional teachings and conventional religions effectively do the same thing, but not deliberately. Not knowing any alternative, they blindly follow the same strategies as the self-help gurus. ------------------------- KH: > > Anyone who portrays conventional truth as ultimate truth! D: > well , one needs to know what is in your understanding conventional truth and what ultimate truth? ..and then please provide evidence for what Ajahn Cha ,the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Dalia Lama were/ are teaching . --------------------------- Ultimate truth is about the namas and rupas that have arisen now, in the present moment. Conventional truth is about people and other [supposedly] lasting things (atta). ---------------------------------- D: > In case you are visiting Thailand, go to the North East and tell the people what you stated about Ajahn Cha .. you will learn something about 'imagined persons' , believe me ;-) ----------------------------------- :-) I can learn pannatti (conventional reality) anywhere. -------------------------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > You can if you like, but that is not the way we do things at DSG (or at the Bangkok meetings). It would be better to ask your question in general terms. D: > who is we , Ken ? I am a DSG member too for quite a while .. -------------------------------------------- I meant at DSG we don't conduct polls to decide which of us is good or bad. We never have, and we probably never will. ------------------------------------------ KH: > > Ask, for example, "Is bhavana (samatha and vipassana) something that can be practised at will? D: > I know samatha , the state of calm /tranqulity ..not only from the teaching but by own experience ,like many other list members as well. Vipassana, insight is not a point of will ..but the training towards it - vipassana meditation, as it is often called - is. ------------------------------------------ Ultimately, there can be either conditioned dhammas or formal practices: there can't be both. We can't say that some ultimate realities depend entirely on conditions while some others do not. ------------------------------- KH: > > Or you could ask, "In ultimate truth and reality, is *anything* *ever* practised, or done, at will?' D: > well in reality I am writing to you now at will ... ------------------------------- I am truly taken aback by that remark, Dieter. You have been a member of DSG for several years and yet you don't know what we mean by "in ultimate reality" !? Here are some sutta quotes to help explain: "....since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what belongs to self...." (Alagadduupama Sutta ) "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found [i.e. in the khandhas, apart from the khandhas etc.]." (Yamaka Sutta) If you agree with those quotes I think you must concede there is no you, and no writing, in ultimate reality. There is no controlling "will" dictating the form in which ultimate reality can arise. ------------ <. . .> D: It would be my pleasure to find my doubts- that you count yourself belonging to the community of Theravada Bhuddhism -unfounded .. ;-) ------------- Thanks, but that depends on what you mean by the community of Theravada Buddhism. To most people it is a kind of social club where they can meet friends and have a sense of belonging. Those people would be just as happy in a Mahayana community, or a Methodist community, or a tennis club. There is only one, real, Theravada community, and that is the cetasikas of the eightfold path, when they arise together to know the presently arisen dhamma-arammana. Ken H #104696 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:58 pm Subject: Learning to Let Go and Leave it all Behind... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Learning The Five Grades of Mental Purity: Initially the Noble Learner temporarily disables the mental hindrances and bindings by "Substitution by the Opposite" using insight: Lust is thus temporarily substituted by disgust, anger by friendliness, restlessness by calm, laziness by energy and doubt is substituted by certainty. Later the Noble Learner temporarily overcomes the mental hindrances and bindings by "Suppression" by entering one-pointed absorption of concentration, which is unmixed, unpolluted and untainted by hindrances. Later the Noble Learner permanently eliminates a partial fraction of the hindrances & bindings by "Cutting Off" at reaching path-moment of the Stream-entry, Once-Returner, Non-Returner and Arahat (Magga ) state. Later the Noble Learner permanently eliminates the remaining fraction of hindrances by effortless "Calming" at reaching the fruition-moment of the Stream-entry, Once-Returner, Non-Returner & Arahat (Phala ) state. Finally the Noble Learned irreversibly leaves behind all mental hindrances and bindings by "Escape" into the unconditioned and unconditional element of Nibbana, without remaining traces of either clinging or other fuel... Take Home: Substitution => Suppression => Cut Off => Calming => Escape! More on Withdrawal: Witdrawal Wins Wisdom! Source: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Have a nice & noble learning day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104697 From: Vince Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:43 am Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina, sorry for the delay!, you wrote: >> When Sati is aware of something, it is the self who perform the >> action. Sati includes the appropriation performed by the self (PTS >> Sati definition: "included mindfulness, alertness, lucidity of mind, >> self -- possession, conscience, self -- consciousness") > ------ > N: These explanations like self-possession are just conventional > terms. one can use them without wrong understanding that self exists. > But I find them not too clear. As Lukas also wrote: no self who is > aware, from the beginning no self. Awareness is kusala and then there > cannot be at the same time wrong view of self that is akusala. inside "Abhidhamma in daily life" appears how the Insight can arise by means the concentration provided by ekkaggata cetasikas with akusala cittas. I wonder if stress or similar can be an example?. What do you think about this? >> V: So I understand there are not different insights neither stages of >> insight. There is only the Insight into Truth, and it is the same for >> sotapanna or arhant. > ------ > N: It could not be of the same level, the arahat has the highest > level and eradicated all latent tendencies (fermentations). There > must be stages, thus, development. yes. Just I understand there is development from our wishing-freedom perspective. But note as yourself also says the stages are the eradication of latent tendencies. There is not a deeper nibbana but a deeper eradication of ignorance. Nibbana is not conditioned, then it lacks of more or less depth. > N: Impossible, insight that is just beginning is not of the arahat. my sense was Insight understood as access to nibbana. > N: Paramattha dhammas are real, they are not concepts constructed by > thinking. Naama and ruupa are real, and we do not have to name them > in order to experience them. They have characteristics that can be > directly known. yes, they are real and also conditioned. The only ambit for true happiness and eradication of dukkha is nibbana, the unconditioned. I understand the knowledge of Reality is not the final freedom by itself. True freedom is nibbana. I understand the appearance of Brahma in Suttas shows us the knowledge of reality is not enough. Physical pain is real and we know it. Even Buddha himself had physical pain and he sought for remedies. Knowledge of reality of physical pain cannot eradicate the physical pain itself. Therefore, I understand the knowledge of Reality is a useful teaching but not the final refuge, because Reality is not a pleasant ambit. Refuge is nibbana, emptiness. It is not the knowledge of the opposition of what is real in front what is not real. I fear such question doesn't arise. I understand the knowledge of what is real in front what is not real it's a characteristic of an awakened mind talking to us. Then it is a teaching to realize anatta and nibbana. Well, when we are traveling by plane, Are we flying because the jet, or the wind, or the fuel...?. So it was my question for Sujin; regarding D.O. and the conditionality of paramattha-dhammas. There are two Suttas perhaps related: "The Blessed One said: "Ananda, Udayi's way of presentation, with which Carpenter Fivetools disagreed, was correct, indeed. But also Carpenter Fivetool's way of presentation, with which Udayi disagreed, was correct. In one way of presentation I have spoken of two kinds of feelings, and in other ways of presentation I have spoken of three, of six, of eighteen, of thirty-six, and of one hundred and eight kinds of feelings. So the Dhamma has been shown by me in different ways of presentation." (SN 36.19 ) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.019.nypo.html "I shall show you, O monks, a way of Dhamma presentation by which there are one hundred and eight (feelings). Hence listen to me. "In one way, O monks, I have spoken of two kinds of feelings, and in other ways of three, five, six, eighteen, thirty six and one hundred and eight feelings. "What are the two feelings? Bodily and mental feelings. "What are the three feelings? Pleasant, painful and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feelings. "What are the five feelings? The faculties of pleasure, pain, gladness, sadness and equanimity. "What are the six feelings? The feelings born of sense-impression through eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind. "What are the eighteen feelings? There are the (above) six feelings by which there is an approach (to the objects) in gladness; and there are six approaches in sadness and there are six approaches in equanimity. "What are the thirty six feelings? There are six feelings of gladness based on the household life and six based on renunciation; six feelings of sadness based on the household life and six based on renunciation; six feelings of equanimity based on the household life and six based on renunciation. "What are the hundred and eight feelings? There are the (above) thirty six feelings of the past; there are thirty six of the future and there are thirty six of the present. "These, O monks, are called the hundred and eight feelings; and this is the way of the Dhamma presentation by which there are one hundred and eight feelings." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.022.nypo.html Vince. #104698 From: han tun Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 16. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. Your series are very clear and very useful. There are also many important points in your post, which I cannot find in the Burmese books. The Burmese books are voluminous but it is all like short-hand script, and I do not understand them. So I will put away my books for the time being, and concentrate on your series. I read: [As we have seen, when someone whose skill to attain jhaana declines, and aversion may arise on account of happy feeling or indifferent feeling that accompany the jhaanacitta but that are no more.] I wish to ask you a question. How would you compare the aversion that may arise when the skill for jhaana declines, and the aversion that may arise from the niraamisa dukkha [of Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Sutta]? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #104699 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi sarahprocter... Dear Han & Chew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > Han: It was about Vism. I, 126 (page 43). Purification is of four kinds: purification by the Teaching, purification by restraint, purification by search, and purification by reviewing. > > Catubbidhaa hi suddhi desanaa suddhi, sa.mvara suddhi, pariye.t.thi suddhi, paccavekkha.na suddhi. > > Chew said, [Sayadaw U Silananda said in his talks, desanaa here means "Confession", it is not "Teaching".] > I agreed with Sayadaw U Silananda. > > If you have your views please let us know. ... S: Thank you. The text goes on to say: "Herein, virtue of the Patimokkha restraint is called 'purification by reviewing. Herein, virtue of the Patimokkha restraint is called 'purification by the Teaching; for that is so called because it purifies by means of teaching..." ... S: Here, I would have understood the "desanaa suddhi" to therefore be referring to the Patimokkha siila (virtue) through adherence to all the rules for the Bhikkhu with right understanding (of the path). To continue with the text: "...Virtue of restraint of faculties is called 'purification by restraint'; for that is so called because it purifies by means of the restraint in the mental resolution 'I shall not do so again'. Virtue of livelihood purification is called 'purification by search'; for that is so called because search is purified in one who abandons wrong speech and gets requisites lawfully and properly. Virtue dependent on requisites is called 'purification by reviewing'; for that is so called because it purifies by the reviewing of the kind already described. Hence it was said above (#125): 'There is no offence for one who is mindful in using after accepting with mindfulness'." ... S: In other words, I take these to be referring to siila visuddhi (purification of virtue) which is only developed by the eightfold path, such siila being purified by the ariyan paths. In the Abhidhamattha Sangaha, we read about the same kinds of siila under "Visuddhibheda" (Analysis of Purification), here from C.M.A., ch IX: "Purification of Virtue: "Katha.m? Paatimokkhasa.mvarasiila.m, indriyasa.mvarasiila.m, aajiivapaarisuddhisiila.m, paccayasannissitasiila~n caa ti catupaarisuddhisiila.m siilavisuddhi naama. "Purification of virtue consists of the four kinds of purified virtue, namely: 1)Virtue regarding restraint according to the Paatimokkha; 2)Virtue regarding restraint of the sense faculties; 3)Virtue consisting in purity of livelihood; and 4)Virtue connected with the use of the requisites. S: In the commentary to this text, it stresses that all the visuddhis (the 7 purifications) are included in the development of vipassanaa only, the various insight knowledges, leading to the three liberations through the understanding of the charactersitics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. In particular, on the first kind of siila above, that of Paatimokkha sa.mvara siila, it says: "The monastic rule (paatimokkha) is what frees (mokkheti) the one who keeps (paati) it from the sufferings of the realms of misfortune, etc. It is itself a restraint, because it restrains one from bodily misconduct, etc., and virtue in the sense of making [conduct] conform [to what is wholesome] and upholding [wholesome dhammas]; such is the virtue of the restraint of the monastic rule." S: I might as well add the commentary on the others now: "The virtue of the restraint of the senses is the virtue that occurs by way of restraining the six senses, including the mind, with regard to visible forms, etc. "The virtue of the purity of livelihood is the virtue of the utter purity of livelihood by avoiding wrong livelihood. "The virtue concerning the requisites is the virtue consisting of the reflection, connected with a requisite, that a thing has a specific use. "This is called the virtue of the fourfold purity because it is fourfold and pure in teaching, restraint, quest, and reflection." ... S: In brief, I don't know what is the best translation above for "desana", but I without an understanding of the Teachings, without the development of insight, I believe it's impossible for any of these virtues to be purified except on a temporary basis. It is only such insight that "frees (mokkheti) the one who keeps (paati) it from the sufferings of the realms of misfortune". I believe the Patimokkha siila visuddhi therefore refers to the strict observance and adherence of the Patimokkha rules (including the confessions) for ordained bhikkhus, with the development of insight. Just my reflections.... Thank you both again for raising and discussing this interesting point. Metta Sarah ======= #104700 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga: desanaasuddhi sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, #104343 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Do you know where is <...> [H.] now.? I always wonder?how is he doing. ... S: I did have some communications with him, but not for quite some time. I don't think there's any harm now if I mention that our dear friend was actually a heart specialist, Dr X, who had been living overseas, but not working as a doctor. This was the time he was able to do all his writing here and elsewhere on the internet. He returned to his family and very strenuous, poorly-paid work in his home country, none of which was easy for him. There, in M., internet contact was almost impossible for him. When I last heard from him, he was still reading DSG when he occasionally had an opportunity to take a look. He's quite a young man with a young son, so hopefully in the future, conditions will allow him to write and discuss Dhamma with us all again. Metta Sarah ======= #104701 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 11 sarahprocter... Dear Ken O & all, Great answer to the qu in the text! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > let me comment on << Is there a short way to become free from dukkha?>> > > KO: When one thinks to have a short way to be free from dukkha is actually having expectations to be enlighted as quickly as possible. This is not possible because having expectations would only condition more lobha which condition more dukkha. Dukkha is just another characterisitcs of conditional dhamma. Understand dukkha as it arise in the present moment. Understand it even if the pain is wretching, difficult to bear, and who bears it. No one at all. It is just pain. > > > Ken O > > > > > >Dear all > > > >Q. : What should a layman do who wants to be free from dukkha? He may see that there is such a great deal of dukkha, that it is so terrible and that it occurs all the time, because people are born and they have to be born again and again. Is there a short way to become free from dukkha? ..... Metta Sarah ======== #104702 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Vince, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > S: A great description from Milindapanha. > > Could we say that whichever sutta we read points to the same > > dhammas as expounded in the Abhidhamma. In this sense, all the > > suttas meet here? The path is satipatthana, the foundations of mindfulness. > > So then we need to hear, consider and understand the objects of mindfulness appearing now. > > ...not sure. I have found "the roads" is used is some places as a simile > for the 4 elements composing Reality. .... S: Yes, well what we learn about in the suttas, in an ultimate sense, are just the various elements - whether the 4 great elements, the 4 plus the other 24 derived rupa elements, the mental and physical elements, the conditioned elements and unconditioned element. The suttas always point to realities, don't they? .... > > But I'm not sure why the Milindapanha says "three OR four"... > Why the doubt? > some ideas? ... S: When I read it, I just understood that the simile of roads intersecting was being used - sometimes there are 3 roads and sometimes 4 at a junction. Thank you for your other quotes on elements. I'm glad to read your continued interest in Abhidhamma and further discussions with Nina and others here. Have you tried listening to any of the edited recordings of discussions with K.Sujin? They can be found on www.dhammastudygroup.org. Metta Sarah ====== #104703 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revisit Space subject sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (& pt), #104374 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Sorry Sarah > > You have yet provide textual prove to your points.? because the debate commentary is very clear, there is no two unconditional.? Space is concept just like putting two pillars and the "thing" in?between is space.? But small matter, not very important,? just like to kid a small fuss for the fun of it.? A lot of lobha :-) ... S: I have provided quotes in my messages, but it depends how we read them. In the end, it's not the texts, but the understanding that counts :-) For me, simply where there are no kalapas of rupas, there must be this kind of space, whatever we call it. Without it, we wouldn't be able to stretch an arm, hear, digest food or take a flight.... Metta Sarah ======== #104704 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 16. nilovg Dear Han, Op 27-jan-2010, om 4:09 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I wish to ask you a question. How would you compare the aversion > that may arise when the skill for jhaana declines, and the aversion > that may arise from the niraamisa dukkha [of Mahaasatipa.t.thaana > Sutta]? ------- N: This is not dependent on sense desire. It seems the same as the feeling accompaning aversion when jhaana has declined. Thus, it is negligable (abbohaari), it has no connection with the latent tendency of pa.tigha. ------ Nina. #104705 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Our friend, doctor X. nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you for the info about our friend. I appreciate all the more his great dedication he put into his writings on the Abhidhamma. Nina. Op 27-jan-2010, om 6:55 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > I don't think there's any harm now if I mention that our dear > friend was actually a heart specialist, Dr X, who had been living > overseas, but not working as a doctor. This was the time he was > able to do all his writing here and elsewhere on the internet. He > returned to his family and very strenuous, poorly-paid work in his > home country, none of which was easy for him. #104706 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:49 pm Subject: Re: The Natural Way of Development jonoabb Hi Alex (104645) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > At first, there must be a directed effort (because there isn't much kusala qualities. A perfect kusala just doesn't appear from thin air). After a while, kusala will arise spontaneously and by itself, without directed effort. > =============== If I've understood correctly, this is a complimentary point to your 'learning to ride a bike' analogy. You are saying that kusala needs to be practised so that it becomes sufficiently developed to occur spontaneously, and that this practice involves the use of directed effort to perform kusala (like learning to ride a bike). As I've mentioned before, kusala can and does arise spontaneously anyway, including in persons who have never heard the Dhamma or don't know about wholesome and unwholesome consciousness. Is it not your experience that certain kinds of kusala that have not been the subject of 'practice' (for example, helping others, or reflecting on the dhamma aspect of a situation) can and do arise spontaneously in daily life? > =============== But again, the spontaneous actions are the result of long developed habits. A person who has only akusala, just cannot have only kusala the next moment. A car travelling 100mph in a narrow road to the East, cannot the next second be travelling at 100mph to the west. It needs to gradually slow down to complete stop, 100 mph to 0mph. Then turn to the west and accelerate from 0mph to 100mph. Similar is with development of kusala qualities. Same with development of wisdom. > =============== I do not think there is such a being as the "person who has only akusala". Everyone has accumulated tendencies for both kusala and akusala. No matter how weak the accumulated tendency for kusala may be, there is still the potential for it to manifest spontaneously as kusala citta, and to accumulate further. > =============== > Arhatship is not "natural". It goes against the flow of Samsara. Thus one has to at first apply a lot of directed effort. If you don't resist when you should resist the flow of the water, you will simply be swept away. > > A simile: > A martial artist practices many complex self defense moves for many hours a day. At first s/he is bad it it and has to think where to move the arm, how to place the leg, where when and how to shift the stance etc etc. Some time later, in daily life, someone tries to rob him. The martial artist executes a very complex self-defense technique automatically and without thinking. "It" just happens. > =============== This I think is the same thing as your 'learning to ride a bike' analogy. Do you know of any similar analogy that was given by the Buddha? > =============== > Don't mistake the effortless effort to mean that lying on the coach is the path there. The skill that is effortless, was attained only though development of it. > =============== Nobody here is saying that "lying on the couch is the path". What is being said is that the path can be developed regardless of one's present circumstances (including lying on the couch if that happens to be the present circumstance). That to me is the meaning of the well-known passage from the Satipatthana Sutta that mentions walking, eating, going to the toilet, etc. > =============== > You seem to rigid with what you define as wholesome/unwholesome. The world is not like that, Jon! > =============== I think you'd agree that on a moment-to-moment basis, consciousness is either kusala or akusala; it cannot be partly one and partly the other. When it comes to conventional acts that are perceived to be kusala in their nature, these are likely to be comprised of moments of both kusala and akusala consciousness. Only the individual concerned can know to what extent the consciousness is in fact kusala. To my understanding, the Buddha did not teach the doing of conventional acts of mixed kusala and akusala. What he taught was the development of kusala. This is not to say we should refrain from doing kusala acts out of fear of there being some akusala involved. On the other hand, neither was it being suggested that we should go around doing 'kusala acts'. Jon #104707 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:58 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary jonoabb Hi Deiter (104646) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > D: well , I think most of the active DSG members are rather familar with what has been said about the 8 fold Noble Path .. > the point is not forget over one's reflection that the ' poisoned arrow ' must be removed as soon as possible , i.e. to start the practise ... > (always a good reminder to myself...) > =============== To my understanding, the development of awareness can begin regardless if the present mind-state. It is said in the Satipatthana Sutta that, for example, mind with anger is to be known as mind with anger. There is no prerequisite in terms of having removed the poison arrow. > =============== > B.T.W. I assume that we agree on the sila sequence of the path training ? ( because it is the base for the samadhi part.... ) > =============== I am familiar with the sequencing of sila, samadhi and panna in terms of their perfection. But I'm not aware of any sequencing of path training. Would you mind referring me to the passage(s) you have in mind? Thanks. > =============== > D: Jon , our topic is the samadhi part of path training , i.e. now Right Effort .. > we need to treat the general aspects first before we apply further details like contemplation respectively clear understanding of the six senses > =============== If you are referring to the Eightfold Path factors, the division of these into sila, samadhi and panna is not for the purpose of their stage-by-stage development. At least, I'm not aware of any text that suggests this. > =============== > D: until perfect mindfulness is established we need to reflect the moment in order to see what needs to be avoided, , to overcome , to develop , to maintain .. > reflection lags behind, doesn`t it? It is difficult to see how any useful effect could be otherwise. > =============== Yes, deliberate reflection on the moment of consciousness necessarily lags behind whatever moment of consciousness is being reflected on. Which is why I do not read the teaching on right effort to be stipulating such reflection. Jon #104708 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:26 pm Subject: paticcasamuppada continuation szmicio Dear friends, Here is a continuation of paticcasaupadda: 229. Tattha katama.m naamaruupapaccayaa sa.laayatana.m? Cakkhaayatana.m, sotaayatana.m, ghaanaayatana.m, jivhaayatana.m, kaayaayatana.m, manaayatana.m – ida.m vuccati ‘‘naamaruupapaccayaa sa.laayatana.m ============================================ L: Six bases are real. They are not an idea or concept. Six bases are realities and they can be known. The idea of eyesense is different than eyesense itself. The eyesense is ruupa and it can be know. The idea cannot be known. Paticcasamupada and 4 Noble Truths, they are the same. Best wishes Lukas #104709 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:43 pm Subject: Q. Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 5. szmicio Dear Nina, > > L: Another example, I consider very often. > > Long long ago I was thinking my grandma gonna die, my mom gonna > > die, all my close friends and family gonna die. ... Feel like a lot > > of wrong view is gonne. Isn't it sacca ~nana? > ------- > N: Wrong view is still there as a latent tendency and it can condion > the arising of akusala citta with wrong view at any time. Only the > sotaapanna has eradicated it. Let us not be mistaken about part of > wrong view being gone. It is best to be very realisitic, no > illusions. That also goes for detachment: > --------- L: :D This is my mistake here: I was not gonna to say: 'The wrong view is gone' I meant I felt like less wrong view in my life. Best wishes Lukas #104710 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:27 pm Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 27-jan-2010, om 3:43 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > inside "Abhidhamma in daily life" appears how the Insight can arise by > means the concentration provided by ekkaggata cetasikas with akusala > cittas. ------- N: Please, could you give me the page? Thank you. Vipassanaa pa~n~naa can have as object akusala, but I do not know about the above passage. Nina. #104711 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:43 pm Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, There is no need to make a special effort to concentrate on mental phenomena and physical phenomena. If one tries to concentrate there is clinging to an idea of ?my concentration?, and then there is no development of right understanding. When there are conditions for the arising of right mindfulness and right understanding, there is right concentration already which focuses on the reality presenting itself at that moment. Some people believe that one should first develop morality, after that concentration and then right understanding. However, all kinds of kusala, be it generosity, good moral conduct or calm can develop together with right understanding. There is no particular order in the development of wholesomeness. Kusala citta is non-self, anatt?. When one reads the scriptures one will come across texts on the development of right concentration which has reached the stage of absorption. This does not imply that all people should develop calm to the degree of absorption. As I explained in chapter 7, it depends on the individual?s accumulations whether he can develop it or not. The Buddha encouraged those who could develop calm to the degree of absorption to be mindful of realities in order to see also absorption as non self. There are many aspects to each subject which is explained in the teachings and one has to take these into account when one reads the scriptures. Otherwise one will read the texts with wrong understanding. The Buddha?s teachings are subtle and deep, not easy to grasp. We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, The Great Chapter, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, chapter II, ?. 9, Illustration) that the Buddha said to the monks: Monks, the noble Truth of This is dukkha? This is the arising of dukkha?This is the ceasing of dukkha? This is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, has been pointed out by me. Therein are numberless shades and variations of meaning. Numberless are the ways of illustrating this noble truth of, This is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha. Wherefore, monks an effort must be made to realize: This is dukkha, This is the arising of dukkha, This is the ceasing of dukkha, This is the practice leading to the ceasing of dukkha. ******* Nina. #104712 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q for KS nilovg Dear Alex, I took note of your questions, thank you. Awaiting her answer, I could say something about persons. Kh Sujin says that she speaks about realities, because she knows that people usually get lost in concepts, stories about things and persons. Nina. Op 26-jan-2010, om 23:23 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Please ask K Sujin what she thinks about: > 1) Ajahn Chah > 2) Vissudhimagga teachings on Austerities, Dhutanga Niddesa Chapter II > 3) Vissudhimagga teachings on Samadhi, Chapter III > #104713 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:57 pm Subject: Re: The Natural Way of Development truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (104645) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > At first, there must be a directed effort (because there isn't much kusala qualities. A perfect kusala just doesn't appear from thin air). After a while, kusala will arise spontaneously and by itself, without directed effort. > > =============== > > If I've understood correctly, this is a complimentary point to your 'learning to ride a bike' analogy. You are saying that kusala needs to be practised so that it becomes sufficiently developed to occur spontaneously, and that this practice involves the use of directed effort to perform kusala (like learning to ride a bike). > > As I've mentioned before, kusala can and does arise spontaneously anyway, including in persons who have never heard the Dhamma or don't know about wholesome and unwholesome consciousness. > Hello Jon, Sarah, Nina, KenH, KenO, all, Jon, when you have said that "kusala can arise spontaneously", are you saying that it is un-caused, un-produced, not brought into being? If kusala is un-caused, un-produced, not brought into being, then we don't need to do anything because there is no cause to make it arise or to strengthen the arisen kusala state. If something is un-caused, un-produced, not brought into being, then nothing can affect it - and thus all efforts are ultimately fruitless. Is this what you are saying? With metta, Alex #104714 From: Lukas Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Natural Way of Development szmicio Hi Alex. >Jon, when you have said that "kusala can arise spontaneously" , are you saying that it >is un-caused, un-produced, not brought into being. >If kusala is un-caused, un-produced, not brought into being, then we don't need to >do anything because there is no cause to make it arise or to strengthen the arisen >kusala state. If something is un-caused, un-produced, not brought into being, then >nothing can affect it - and thus all efforts are ultimately fruitless. Is this what you are >saying? L: It's possible to develop kusala. Pa~n~na that is of the level of samatha knows whether citta is kusala or not, and also it knows the conditions for more kusala. It devlops more kusala. Not you. Pa~n~na cultivates each kind of kusala. You dont have to worry about that.If you forget I, I-making, then this can be helpful to develop more kusala. Budda said there is only one thing that needs to be abandoned for the development of path and realising Nibbana. That is avijja that needs to be abandoned. This is ?from (avjjia sutta 1 &2) What's the predominant condition for more kusala? for right effort??Hear Dhamma discourses, or hear some reminders from friends(even from your daily life friends) and then there can be yoniso mansikara. and the moment's kusala. Or maybe you found something else that helps you to develop more kusala? This is concept that is condition for kusala. This is not 'tryings'. But only 'the concepts of tryings'. When Buddha said strive from 'akusala and develop more kusala'. He knew how those words can condition more kusala.? Best wishesLukas? #104715 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:27 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Jon, you wrote: ( D: well , I think most of the active DSG members are rather familar with what has been said about the 8 fold Noble Path .. > the point is not forget over one's reflection that the ' poisoned arrow ' must be removed as soon as possible , i.e. to start the practise ... > (always a good reminder to myself...) > =============== To my understanding, the development of awareness can begin regardless if the present mind-state. It is said in the Satipatthana Sutta that, for example, mind with anger is to be known as mind with anger. D: Because the usual mind-state is that 'just as a monkey wondering in a big forest seizes a branch and letting go of it seizes another, similarly , bhikkhus, of what is called mind , is called though, is called consciousness, one moment arises at another ceases continually both day and night .' SNXII, 61) , awareness needs to calm down body and mind . The Satipatthana Sutta starts with that and provides us with the framework (the remembrance) which needs to be established by contemplation of body, feeling, (the state of ) mind and mind objects in details , among those the 5 hindrances and what to do with that ' blinding of our mental vision' Yes, mind with anger is to be known as anger as well as the other states mentioned under the third group of the sutta, ie. N.: '3) He further clearly perceives and understands any state of consciousness or mind (cittanupassana), whether it is greedy or not, hateful or not, deluded or not, cramped or distracted, developed or undeveloped, surpassable or unsurpassable, concentrated or unconcentrated, liberated or unliberated.' J: There is no prerequisite in terms of having removed the poison arrow. D: I think you misunderstood , Jon . I hinted to the simile of the arrow : MN 63 in which the Buddha gave Malunkya a severe lecture ..excerpt of http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html "It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him. "In the same way, if anyone were to say, 'I won't live the holy life under the Blessed One as long as he does not declare to me that 'The cosmos is eternal,'... or that 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' the man would die and those things would still remain undeclared by the Tathagata. "Malunkyaputta, it's not the case that when there is the view, 'The cosmos is eternal,' there is the living of the holy life. And it's not the case that when there is the view, 'The cosmos is not eternal,' there is the living of the holy life. When there is the view, 'The cosmos is eternal,' and when there is the view, 'The cosmos is not eternal,' there is still the birth, there is the aging, there is the death, there is the sorrow, lamentation, pain, despair, & distress whose destruction I make known right in the here & now.snip I refered to wellknown simile of the poisened arrow in order to emphasize by 'the point is not forget over one's reflection ' , needs to remove the arrow ,that one needs to start , needs to go on with the training .. J; (D: B.T.W. I assume that we agree on the sila sequence of the path training ? ( because it is the base for the samadhi part.... )============ I am familiar with the sequencing of sila, samadhi and panna in terms of their perfection. But I'm not aware of any sequencing of path training. Would you mind referring me to the passage(s) you have in mind? Thanks. D: MN 44 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html (besides MN 78 and - if I remember correctly VisM.) ' Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment." J:( D: Jon , our topic is the samadhi part of path training , i.e. now Right Effort .. > we need to treat the general aspects first before we apply further details like contemplation respectively clear understanding of the six senses > =============== If you are referring to the Eightfold Path factors, the division of these into sila, samadhi and panna is not for the purpose of their stage-by-stage development. At least, I'm not aware of any text that suggests this. D: compare e.g. with DN 16 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html Thus it was said by the Blessed One. And the Happy One, the Master, further said: Through not seeing the Four Noble Truths, Long was the weary path from birth to birth. When these are known, removed is rebirth's cause, The root of sorrow plucked; then ends rebirth. 4. And also at Kotigama the Blessed One often gave counsel to the bhikkhus thus: "Such and such is virtue; such and such is concentration; and such and such is wisdom. Great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of concentration when it is fully developed by virtuous conduct; great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of wisdom when it is fully developed by concentration; utterly freed from the taints of lust, becoming, and ignorance is the mind that is fully developed in wisdom." or A.N. IV ,1 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.001.than.html I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Vajjians at Bhanda Village. There he addressed the monks, "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said: "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating four things that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I. Which four? "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble virtue that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I. "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble concentration that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I. "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble discernment that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I. "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble release that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I. "But when noble virtue is understood & penetrated, when noble concentration... noble discernment... noble release is understood & penetrated, then craving for becoming is destroyed, the guide to becoming (craving & attachment) is ended, there is now no further becoming." That is what the Blessed One said. When the One Well-gone had said that, he - the Teacher - said further: Unexcelled virtue, concentration, discernment, & release: have been understood by Gotama of glorious stature. Having known them directly, he taught the Dhamma to the monks - the Awakened One the Teacher who has put an end to suffering & stress, the One with vision totally unbound. unquote J: (D: until perfect mindfulness is established we need to reflect the moment in order to see what needs to be avoided, , to overcome , to develop , to maintain .. reflection lags behind, doesn`t it? It is difficult to see how any useful effect could be otherwise.)============== Yes, deliberate reflection on the moment of consciousness necessarily lags behind whatever moment of consciousness is being reflected on. Which is why I do not read the teaching on right effort to be stipulating such reflection. D: the point is to recognize e.g. anger already at the state of arising , or when it has already arisen to overcome it .. the point of training to minimize to lag behind .. avoiding that the unwholesome is unfolding..e.g. anger , for which I assume you already use this stipulation , don' t you? with Metta Dieter #104716 From: Vince Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:57 pm Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Sarah: you wrote: > S: Yes, well what we learn about in the suttas, in an ultimate > sense, are just the various elements - whether the 4 great elements, > the 4 plus the other 24 derived rupa elements, the mental and > physical elements, the conditioned elements and unconditioned > element. The suttas always point to realities, don't they? yes. Well, at least I understand firstly the Suttas, Vinaya and Abhidhamma, all they point to nibbana. Buddha and his teaching are in the world to realize nibanna and emptiness. For sure one should stress the existence of a true reality in front concepts. On the contrary one is lost in the practice. However, also one should be aware that the "true reality" is not a refuge neither freedom. Refuge is nibbana. Nibbana is so present here and now as also naama, rupa and consciousness. It is not further neither closer. > S: When I read it, I just understood that the simile of roads > intersecting was being used - sometimes there are 3 roads and > sometimes 4 at a junction. yes, also I have understand in the same way but I'm not sure about other meanings. > I'm glad to read your continued interest in Abhidhamma and further > discussions with Nina and others here. Have you tried listening to > any of the edited recordings of discussions with K.Sujin? They can > be found on www.dhammastudygroup.org. yes, of course, I'm fully interested in Abhidhamma. :) Still I need to learn and read many things. Now I have finished the Sujin books that I have, and probably later I will go for the Athasalini, I have seen the edited recordings and I will try with some. But an added problem is when I have an enough English to read and write (with some dictionary help) but much more difficult to listen and talk. I wonder if my interview with Sujin was productive to me because it was not very rational at all.. :) Are you in Bangkok now? Vince, #104717 From: Vince Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:10 pm Subject: Re[4]: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina >> inside "Abhidhamma in daily life" appears how the Insight can arise by >> means the concentration provided by ekkaggata cetasikas with akusala >> cittas. > ------- > N: Please, could you give me the page? Thank you. Vipassanaa pa~n~naa > can have as object akusala, but I do not know about the above passage. page 194: "Each citta can have only one object and ekaggata cetasika focuses on that one object. Ekaggata cetasika or samadhi can: be kusala as well as akusala." and later continues: "Together with samadhi there must be right understanding which knows precisely when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta and which knows how to develop calm, otherwise the right concentration of samatha will not grow" but I don't understand this point. Which samadhi is referred here?. Until today I understand in Samadhi there is not an understanding process in the sense of a reflection process (I mean, a judgement of the object to know if this is kusala or akusala). Or maybe in this text should we understand different types or degrees of Samadhi? thanks! Vince. #104718 From: Vince Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:23 pm Subject: VIRUS in Dhammastudy.com website: be careful cerovzt@... hi all, recently I was trying to access to dhammastudy.com and my antivirus alert me about a virus. As I work as a computer programmer, I have check a pair of things to discard false alerts and I have found the alert is real. There is a Trojan inside the web (Please don't enter now!) http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid21.html The same happen with other pages of the website. Virus name is: HTML/Igrame.N.Gen virus Before visit any page, here you can check if the virus is present: http://www.avg.com.au/resources/web-page-scanner/ If you don't know what is a Trojan, a Trojan is a little software able to enter inside your PC. It allows to a distant person take control of your PC as of he was sited in your own seat. It is very dangerous!!! * If any person of this list have visited that pages recently, you should scan as soon is possible your ENTIRE PC with a good antivirus. * you can check if your antivirus is able to detect this virus going to the website of your antivirus. If you don't have an antivirus, this is free: http://free.avg.com/ww-en/download-avg-anti-virus-free I don't know who is in charge of the website dhammastudy.com. If he cannot find where is the virus, I can write to him to give the technical data. Vince, #104719 From: han tun Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:40 pm Subject: Dhaniya Sutta Pali words hantun1 Dear Lukas (and others), You once wrote: "Han, I always enjoying your Sayadows comments. Very wise persons. I am gonna to save your whole series on my disk". Han: Thank you once again for your encouraging kind words. When I presented this sutta at another forum I gave the meaning of the Pali words as well. I have omitted them at DSG not to make my messages too long. If you want, I can give you the meaning of the Pali words that I have gathered. I used Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera, PTS Dictionary, and Pali-Burmese Dictionary. The meaning of Pali words in verse are more difficult to find than the Pali words in prose, unless one is really expert in Pali grammar, which I am not. When I cannot find a Pali word in any of these Dictionaries I refer to the English translation or the Burmese translation of the sutta. Now, I will give you the meaning of Pali words in the first two verses. As I do not know Pali grammar, there may be some mistakes in my post. I will be very happy if someone will correct me for those mistakes. If you find the following useful I can continue. If not, I will stop. 1. Dhaniya the cattleman: The rice is cooked, my milking done. I live with my people along the banks of the Mahi; my hut is roofed, my fire lit: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead and rain. 1. Pakkodano duddhakhiiro hamasmi (iti dhaniyo gopo) Anutiire mahiyaa samaanavaaso, Channaa ku.ti aahito gini Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. pakka: [pp. of pacati] riped; boiled; cooked. duddha: [pp. of duhati] milked. khiira: [nt.] milk. anutiira: [nt.] neighbourhood of a bank or shore. mahiya = Mahi river. samaana : [adj.] equal; same; similar. vaasana = 1. clothing. 2. live. samaanavaaso = [in this verse means] I live with my people. channa: (pp. of chaadeti) covered; concealed; thatched. ku.ti: [f.] a hut. aahita [pp. of aa + dhaa] put up, heaped; provided with fuel (of a fire). gini: [m.] fire. atha: [ind.] then; and also. ce: [conditional particle] if. patthayati: [pa + atth + aya] wishes for; desires. pavassa deva = rain-god. [Han: "Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva" is at the end of each verse up to Verse 12. So the meaning of this will not be repeated.] ----------------------- 2. The Buddha: Free from anger, my stubbornness gone, I live for one night along the banks of the Mahi; my hut's roof is open, my fire out: so if you want, rain-god, go ahead and rain. 2. Akkodhano vigatakhilo hamasmi (iti bhagavaa) Anutiire mahiyekarattivaaso, Viva.taa ku.ti nibbuto gini Atha ce patthayasi pavassa deva. akkodhano = free from anger. vigata: [pp. of vigacchati] gone away; ceased; deprived of; being without. khila (m. nt.) A iii.248; fig. barrenness of mind, mental obstruction. mahiyekarattivaaso = mahiya + eka + ratta +vaasana. mahiya = Mahi river. eka = one. ratta = night. vaasana = live. viva.ta: [pp. of vivarati] opened; laid bare; unveiled. ku.ti: [f.] a hut. nibbuta: [pp. of nibbaati] got cold; become passionless; was extinguished. -------------------- Han: I forgot to mention one pair of play of words during my presentation at DSG: Dhaniya said: Anutiire mahiyaa samaanavaaso (I live with my people on the bank of river Mahi) Buddha said: Anutiire mahiyekarattivaaso (I live for one night on the bank of river Mahi) --------------------- Kind regards, Han #104720 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:00 am Subject: Re: VIRUS in Dhammastudy.com website: be careful truth_aerator Hello, I wasn't able to access that site either (and read how to develop panna while watching TV) ... Virus scanner didn't allow me. With metta, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > hi all, > > recently I was trying to access to dhammastudy.com and my antivirus > alert me about a virus. As I work as a computer programmer, I have > check a pair of things to discard false alerts and I have found the > alert is real. > > There is a Trojan inside the web (Please don't enter now!) > http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid21.html > > The same happen with other pages of the website. Virus name is: > HTML/Igrame.N.Gen virus > > Before visit any page, here you can check if the virus is present: > http://www.avg.com.au/resources/web-page-scanner/ > > > If you don't know what is a Trojan, a Trojan is a little software able > to enter inside your PC. It allows to a distant person take control of > your PC as of he was sited in your own seat. It is very dangerous!!! > > * If any person of this list have visited that pages recently, you > should scan as soon is possible your ENTIRE PC with a good antivirus. > > * you can check if your antivirus is able to detect this virus going > to the website of your antivirus. > > > If you don't have an antivirus, this is free: > http://free.avg.com/ww-en/download-avg-anti-virus-free > > > I don't know who is in charge of the website dhammastudy.com. If he > cannot find where is the virus, I can write to him to give the > technical data. > > > Vince, > #104721 From: Vince Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VIRUS in Dhammastudy.com website: be careful cerovzt@... Dear Alex, > I wasn't able to access that site either (and read how to develop > panna while watching TV) ... Virus scanner didn't allow me. so your antivirus is better than mine! :) It seems somebody was able to rewrite the pages and to put write some code calling to an extern website, in where the virus is charged. So, at the end of every page there is this code: iframe src="http://mangasit.com/lib/index.php" width=0 height=0 style="hidden" frameborder=0 marginheight=0 marginwidth=0 scrolling=no> Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:41 am Subject: Re: VIRUS in Dhammastudy.com website: be careful ptaus1 Hi Vince, Thanks for letting us all know and for the useful links. I'm not sure who maintains that website. Also good to know you're a programmer in case we need a bit of technical help in the future. While that website is inaccessible, perhaps let us know what particular works you wanted to read there - as I remember, many of the works there are also available on other sites. Best wishes pt > recently I was trying to access to dhammastudy.com and my antivirus > alert me about a virus. As I work as a computer programmer, I have > check a pair of things to discard false alerts and I have found the > alert is real. > > There is a Trojan inside the web (Please don't enter now!) > http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid21.html > #104723 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:52 am Subject: Fwd: Theravada Emptiness _ The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriharnwanaket nilovg Dear friends, Leonardo asked me to forward this message. Nina. Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Forwarded message ---------- > From: Leonardo B. Neves > Date: 2010/1/27 > Subject: Theravada Emptiness _ The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan > Sujin Boriharnwanaket > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > > Dhamma friends, > > For your consideration > > http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a779058057&db=all > > > Leonardo, the brazilian lurker > #104724 From: han tun Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 16. hantun1 Dear Nina, > > Han: I wish to ask you a question. How would you compare the aversion that may arise when the skill for jhaana declines, and the aversion that may arise from the niraamisa dukkha [of Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Sutta]? > Nina: This is not dependent on sense desire. It seems the same as the feeling accompanying aversion when jhaana has declined. Thus, it is negligible (abbohaari), it has no connection with the latent tendency of pa.tigha. ------ Han: Thank you very much for your clarification. Respectfully, Han #104725 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:00 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, The eightfold Path must be developed in daily life. One should come to know all realities, also one?s defilements, as they arise because of their own conditions. One cannot change the reality which arises, it is non-self. Misunderstandings as to the development of right understanding are bound to arise if one has not correctly understood what the objects of mindfulness and right understanding are. Therefore I wish to stress a few points concerning these objects. Some people believe that a quiet place is more favourable for the development of right understanding. They should examine themselves in order to find out which types of citta motivate their thinking. If laypeople want to live as a monk in order to have more opportunity to develop right understanding, they are led by desire. It is due to conditions, to one?s accumulated inclinations, whether one is a monk or a layman. Both monk and layman can develop understanding, each in his own situation. Then one will come to understand one?s own accumulated inclinations. The development of the eightfold Path is the development of right understanding of all realities which arise because of their own conditions, also of one?s attachment, aversion and other defilements. In order to remind people of the realities which can be objects of mindfulness and right understanding, the Buddha taught the ?Four Applications of Mindfulness?. These Four Applications contain all mental phenomena and physical phenomena of daily life which can be objects of mindfulness and right understanding. They are: Contemplation of the Body, which comprises all physical phenomena, Contemplation of Feeling, Contemplation of Citta and Contemplation of Dhammas, which comprises all realities not included in the other three Applications of Mindfulness. Contemplation in this context does not mean thinking of realities. It is direct awareness associated with right understanding. We read in the ?Satipatthaana Sutta? (Middle Length Sayings I, 10) that the Buddha, while he was dwelling among the Kuru people at Kamm?ssadamma, said to the monks: This is the only way, monks, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of nibb?na, namely, the Four Applications of Mindfulness. ****** Nina. #104726 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:50 pm Subject: Mighty is Morality! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Morality is the 2nd Mental Perfection: Avoiding all Harm! Doing only Good... Purifying the Mind: This is the True Dhamma of all the Buddhas! Dhammapada 183 Morality is the foundation, the initiator and the origin of all, that is fine, good and very beautiful... One must therefore purify true morality! Theragatha 612 All success is rooted in a clean morality, cultivated to purity! Theragatha 608 Morality is a mighty Power! Morality is a forceful Weapon! Morality is a supreme Jewel! Morality is a marvellous Protection! Theragatha 614 Harmlessness towards all living beings, Speaking only kind and wise truths, Taking nothing not freely given, Enjoying only one's own partner, Never abusing drinks or drugs. Having given up and left all behind these five harmful actions, such Good One truly possesses right morality... AN III 205-6 Ananda once asked the Buddha: "What, Venerable Sir, is the rewarding advantage of morality?" "Freedom from regret, Ananda!" "And what is the advantage of freedom from regret?" "Joy that produces bliss, Ananda. Bliss then generates happiness. Happiness enables concentration. Concentration facilitates vision and knowledge. Vision and knowledge brings disillusion and detachment Disillusion and detachment induces direct experience of certain and complete mental release, Ananda?" AN X.1 Intention always comes first! Intention is of all states the primer. By intention are all things initiated. By construction of mind are all phenomena formed. So - if with good intention one thinks, speaks or acts: Joy and pleasure surely follows one, like a never-leaving shadow However - if with evil intention one thinks, speaks or acts: Pain certainly follows one, like the wheel follows the car. Dhammapada 1+2 Both the moral and immoral doings; Both the good and the bad behaviour; That human beings do here; These are truly only their own possession...!!! These, they take along with them, when they die, go and rearise, These actions, good, neutral and bad are what follows them, like the shadow, that never ever leaves... So do only what is admirable and advantageous, as an accumulating investment for the future life! Good prior doings are the only support and help for all beings, when they re-arise in the world of the next state of being? SN III 4 Here and now the good-doer rejoices... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of good, reaps only joy, pleasure and satisfaction ... So both here and there, the wise with merit well done and stored, enjoys the moral purity of prior actions. Dhammapada 15 Here and now the bad-doer suffers... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of wrong and evil, reaps only pain, discontent, despair, and regret ... So both here and there, the fool with wrong views and bad behaviour, suffers agony as the inevitable effect of prior evil behaviour. Dhammapada 16 As the yak-ox watch her tail even onto death, without breaking through, when caught in thorns, guard your doings as your own life, by avoiding all overstepping of this fine line, between right and wrong. The Basket of Behaviour, Cariyapitaka The Bodhisatta once as the Naga serpent King Sankhapala guarded his precepts of moral habit, even when tortured: Though pierced with sharp bamboo stakes and hacked with hunting knives, I raged no anger against these hunters, as this was my final perfection of Morality! Sankhapala Jataka no. 524 The 5 precious precepts (pa?ca-sila): I accept the training rule of avoiding all killing of breathing beings. I accept the training rule of not to take anything, that is not given. I accept the training rule of abstaining from any sexual misconduct. I accept the training rule of desisting from all incorrect speech. I accept the training rule of no drinks or drugs causing carelessness. True Buddhists undertake these precious precepts right here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm These are timeless laws of only pure good, which all the mighty seers of the past have fully followed and made their Way! This Virtue of Morality is like Rock: A solid foundation for all good states! Immorality creates regret, and thus destroys all joy... Purity creates calm, and thus the subtle concentration, which is necessary for gaining all higher understanding! Only higher Understanding can ever set one completely Free... More on this basic first cause of all Good: Morality (S ila): Mighty is Morality, Prime Benefits, Observance , Happy_Habbit , Sila_1_to_5 , What_is_Virtue , Best_Protection , The_Five_Basics , Best_Buddhist_Praxis , Sila_Contemplation, Optimal_Observance_I , Optimal_Observance_II , Optimal_Observance_IV , Truth_Triumphs , Optimal_Observance_V , Blurred_and_Blinded , Never_Kill , Back_to_Basics , Few_are_Fine , Immaculate_Virtue , Reviewing_Virtue , Buddhist_Life_Standards_Law_1 , Buddhist_Life_Standards_Law_2 , Buddhist_Life_Standards_Law_3 , Buddhist_Life_Standards_Law_4 , Not_Stealing , Not_Killing , The_Good_Disciple More of these 10 mental perfections (paramis): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/The_Ten_Perfections.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Mighty is Morality! #104727 From: "Leonardo B. Neves" Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:05 pm Subject: Theravada Emptiness _ The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriharnwanaket lbn1959 Dhamma friends, For your consideration http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a779058057&db=all Leonardo, the brazilian lurker #104728 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: VsM teaches formal meditation ksheri3 GOOD MORNING LUKAS, Maybe you should read: The Mindless Brain at: http://tibet.org/dan/madhyamika/mad19.html toodles --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > > > "You sit and free your mind of dosa, ..." > > > > What is DOSA? You've boxed yourself into a corner here focusing on this thing called DOSA as the CREATOR of this OBJECT. IF there are no OBJECTS from the start, THEN how can a simple meditator free their mind of something that does not exist? Is DOSA RESULTANT from the object you are trying to relate to Alex? Where is dosa if not from that object? Either Dosa exists before that object exists or your premise and theory are nothing more than CIRCULAR LOGIC aka the BLIND leading the BLIND. > > L:I mean object of dosa that may be a concept(or can it be nama or ruupa), and object/subject of meditiation, that is eradiction of dosa and metta development. The meditator that is skillful in those object can develop metta no matter something is real/ exist or not. > So I consider myself as not to be skillful in this object. <...> #104729 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Emptiness _ The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriharnwanaket nilovg Dear Leonardo and Howard, Thank you. I know so little about mahaayana and I would like to leave it to Howard to judge this article. For all I know: Kh Sujin stresses all the time that the Abhidhamma is not theoretical. That it refers to all realities appearing in daily life. It is always the reality appearing at the present moment that can be investigated if direct awareness arises, so that it is known as anattaa. Anattaa is the truth of all realities and this should be directly understood. Emptiness, su~n~nattaa, much emphasized in the different branches of Mahaayana, is the same as anattaa. It means emptiness of a self. Nina. Op 27-jan-2010, om 15:05 heeft Leonardo B. Neves het volgende geschreven: > Dhamma friends, > > For your consideration > > http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a779058057&db=all > > Leonardo, the brazilian lurker > #104730 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Andrew L's question on future lives sarahprocter... Hi Andrew L, Just want to say how really delighted I am to see you posting again after such a long time. How's everything going in New York these days? Hope your health's good now. (pt, Andrew's another computer 'whiz-kid' as I recall!) --- On Tue, 26/1/10, Andrew wrote: >Long time no see. I know there is a lot we disagree on, especially about the idea of "intentional" practice or the wisdom of deciding yourself to engage in certain practices or behaviors for trying to be more aware and "wrong view of self" and so on but I still greatly respect you guys and your knowledge of the Dhamma. Even when not posting continuously to this group I still somewhat frequently read the Useful posts section and find it a great resource. ... S: many thanks for mentioning this and for summarising our old disagreements.....(yes, all around the Atta issue:-)). .... >I am continuously thinking about the parami and satipatthana. But today, my question is this: Considering that it may take us many lives of developing the perfections for enlightenment, we try to put the causes into play for a fortunate rebirth immediately following this one by practicing generosity and morality and so on to allow opportunities for practice, as of course we cannot develop ourselves in the woeful plane... ... S: for me, it all comes down to satipatthana now. With the development of satipatthana, the parami are developed gradually together with the path. When there is an understanding now of a reality appearing, there's no concern at all about next momnet, let alone next rebirth. We can be confident that it's the present understanding which is the essential ingredient for more understanding in the future. ... >I hear much about this idea from different parties, BUT... on top of that, how can we ensure that we will encounter and pursue the Dhamma in future lives? Or at least incline that way, what are the conditions. Instead of getting "lost" in samsara and not practicing in the future. ... S: We have no idea of all the past accumulations, past kamma and latent tendencies, but again, it is the careful considering, the hearing of Dhamma and in particular, the development of satipatthana now which will help the pursuit of the Dhamma in future. ... >I have read that faith, generosity, morality, and wisdom and so on are the qualities leading to a fortunate future birth, but are these (especially faithful conviction in the Buddha's enlightenment and the principle of kamma) sufficient to incline us towards the Dhamma in the next life? Or what will attract us to that path? This seems to me to be an important question that may be overlooked. ... S: Without an understanding of the present dhamma appearing as anatta, there cannot be a highly developed "faithful conviction" or understanding of kamma as you suggest. So again, all these qualities, in order to be firmly established, depend on the sacca ~naana and kicca ~naana that Lukas and Nina have been discussing, i.e the firm theoretical and direct undersanding of the Noble Truths at this moment. When we read all the tales about the Theriis which Connie posted before, we could see how the previous accumulations of all kinds of kusala, but particularly previous encounters with and understanding of the Dhamma, were the conditions for being "attracted to the path" at the time of the Buddha Gotama. ... >I have read in some of Bhikkhu Bodhi's work that taking refuge and the precepts predisposes one to seek future sasanas of the Buddha, so that is another possible factor. And so on... ... S: I think it depends on the understanding. If one takes refuge in the precepts because it is one's culture or one is told to do so at a temple or in school, it is not the same as having unwavering confidence in kusala, seeing the great harm in akusala, which comes with the undestanding of all kinds of realities. Such virtues will always be compromised in difficult circumstances if the understanding is not firm enough. >What do you guys think? ... S: Very good points you raise - just like the old days! Welcome back once more! metta Sarah ===== #104731 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:54 am Subject: Re: Re[4]: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 27-jan-2010, om 22:10 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: >>> inside "Abhidhamma in daily life" appears how the Insight can >>> arise by >>> means the concentration provided by ekkaggata cetasikas with akusala >>> cittas. >> ------- > > page 194: > > "Each citta can have only one object and ekaggata cetasika focuses on > that one object. Ekaggata cetasika or samadhi can: be kusala as well > as akusala." ------ N: This refers to the samaadhi or ekaggata cetasika arising with each citta. Not to tranquil meditation. ------- > > V: and later continues: > > "Together with samadhi there must be right understanding which knows > precisely when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta and > which knows how to develop calm, otherwise the right concentration of > samatha will not grow" > > but I don't understand this point. Which samadhi is referred here?. -------- N: The samaadhi that is kusala and arises in tranquil meditation. ------- > > V: Until today I understand in Samadhi there is not an understanding > process in the sense of a reflection process (I mean, a judgement of > the object to know if this is kusala or akusala). ------- N: In samaadhi or tranquil meditation understanding is necessary, it is pa~n~naa that directly knows whether the citta at that moment is kusala or akusala. This is not merely reflection, but direct understanding of the citta. In samatha pa~n~naa understand kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala, but not as anattaa. In vipassanaa, when pa~n~naa is developed, realities are understood as anattaa. This is not a matter of the object being kusala or akusala, it concerns the citta at that moment, is it kusala or akusala? The object can be one of the kasinas or one of the recollections. ----------- > V: Or maybe in this text should we understand different types or > degrees > of Samadhi? ------ N: There are many types and degrees, but in this context I refer to samatha. Right concentration is also one of the Path factors, as you know. It focusses on the naama or ruupa appearing at the present moment. Nina. > #104732 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Emptiness _ The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriharnwanaket sarahprocter... Hi Leonardo, Also great to know you're still lurking. You were one of our very early members as I recall! --- On Wed, 27/1/10, Leonardo B. Neves wrote: >For your consideration http://www.informaw orld.com/ smpp/content~ content=a7790580 57&db=all Leonardo, the brazilian lurker ... S: Thanks for sharing. Did you have any comments or thoughts about it? How's life going in sunny Brazil? Hope to hear more from you ....do you still follow the threads? Metta Sarah ======= #104733 From: "Leonardo B. Neves" Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Emptiness _ The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriharnwanaket lbn1959 Thanks Sarah, Thanks for all your work here .... yes, I certainly follow the ones that I can catch the meaning rss I do a lot of study at files section also ... Thanks once more Let me dive/switch to the lurking default mode of membership .. lol Leonardo 2010/1/28 sarah abbott > > > Hi Leonardo, > > Also great to know you're still lurking. You were one of our very early > members as I recall! > > > --- On Wed, 27/1/10, Leonardo B. Neves > > wrote: > >For your consideration > > http://www.informaw orld.com/ smpp/content~ content=a7790580 57&db=all > > Leonardo, the brazilian lurker > ... > S: Thanks for sharing. Did you have any comments or thoughts about it? > > How's life going in sunny Brazil? Hope to hear more from you ....do you > still follow the threads? > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > > > -- Leonardo B. Neves #104734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:23 pm Subject: terms and realities. nilovg Dear Vince, There is not a deeper nibbana but a deeper eradication of ignorance. Nibbana is not conditioned, then it lacks of more or less depth. ------- N: In other words, more understanding of what nibbaana is. But this is possible only at the moment of enlightenment. First conditioned realities have to be understood more and more clearly before nibbaana can be attained. ------------- > N: Paramattha dhammas are real, they are not concepts constructed by > thinking. Naama and ruupa are real, and we do not have to name them > in order to experience them. They have characteristics that can be > directly known. V: yes, they are real and also conditioned. The only ambit for true happiness and eradication of dukkha is nibbana, the unconditioned. I understand the knowledge of Reality is not the final freedom by itself. True freedom is nibbana. I understand the appearance of Brahma in Suttas shows us the knowledge of reality is not enough. ------- N: Agreed, nibbaana is the highest peace. But in order to attain it, the development of understanding is indispensable. So, we can say, for the moment, right understanding is our goal. --------- V: I understand the knowledge of what is real in front what is not real it's a characteristic of an awakened mind talking to us. Then it is a teaching to realize anatta and nibbana. Well, when we are traveling by plane, Are we flying because the jet, or the wind, or the fuel...?. So it was my question for Sujin; regarding D.O. and the conditionality of paramattha-dhammas. ----- N: What is real and what is not real: we have to know the difference between realities as they appear one at a time through the six doors, and concepts that are not real. -------- Quote from Cambodia talks: Sujin: No matter what we read, the aim should be the understanding of realities. We may have read a great deal, the Tipitaka and the Commentaries, but we should take part of Dhamma discussions and it should be emhasized from now on that dhamma, reality, appears at this very moment. We heard about realities while we listened to the Dhamma, but they are appearing now. Someone can test his understanding of all that he has learnt, by finding out whether he can really understand the characteristics of realities that are appearing now, or not yet. Generally there are two ways of study: by way of repeating and memorizing and by way of testing or verifying. As to the way of repeating or memorizing, we should forego that method. Some people believe that they should repeat for themselves what they learnt, but this leads only to remembering what was learnt, not to understanding it. Memorizing the subjects one learnt takes a long time, and moreover, when someone does not understand what he learnt he is bound to forget it, and thus it is not useful. At this moment realities are appearing. What do we learn? We learn to understand the dhammas that are real at this moment, and we should not forget that this is our goal. Some people learn the Dhamma by repetition and memorizing, and then they check their knowledge. Others memorize what they learnt but do not check their knowledge. Others again do not repeat, memorize or check their knowledge, they just study but do not consider the goal of their study. The goal is the understanding of the truth of the realities that are appearing. If someone understands the goal, he will not study what is beyond his ability to understand. Our understanding is not of the degree of the understanding of the Samm?sambuddha. The Buddha taught in his great wisdom the three parts of the Tipitaka in all details during fortyfive years. All people read the same scriptures, but why do they practise in different ways? Their practice shows whether they understand the goal of their study or not. It shows whether they comprehend the way to reach this goal, the real understanding of realities, or not. When we study different subjects of the Tipitaka, of the Vinaya, the Book of Discipline, the Suttanta or the Abhidhamma, we should know for ourselves to what degree we can understand what we have read. Can we understand only a little or is our understanding the same as the pa??? of the Samm?sambuddha? Do we study in order to acquire theoretical knowledge, or do we see that the understanding we gain from the study will help us to clearly know realities as they are? If a person just memorizes what he reads in the texts but he is not able to understand the characteristics of the realities that are appearing, his study is not useful. ------- Nina. #104735 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Notes about the three rounds, no 2. nilovg Dear Lukas, This is a post by Sarah: Sarah: (end quote) -------- Nina. #104736 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Emptiness _ The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriharnw szmicio Dear Nina, I dont know also much of mahayana. But they've got this Emptiness theory. So much expressed, so much. And I found it the same with Theravada abhidhamma. Words have no meaning here. But this emptiness is the same. I would say Abhidhamma is compendium of emptiness. Best wishes Lukas > Dear Leonardo and Howard, > Thank you. > I know so little about mahaayana and I would like to leave it to > Howard to judge this article. > For all I know: Kh Sujin stresses all the time that the Abhidhamma is > not theoretical. That it refers to all realities appearing in daily > life. It is always the reality appearing at the present moment that > can be investigated if direct awareness arises, so that it is known > as anattaa. Anattaa is the truth of all realities and this should be > directly understood. Emptiness, su~n~nattaa, much emphasized in the > different branches of Mahaayana, is the same as anattaa. It means > emptiness of a self. > Nina. > Op 27-jan-2010, om 15:05 heeft Leonardo B. Neves het volgende > geschreven: > > > Dhamma friends, > > > > For your consideration > > > > http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a779058057&db=all > > > > Leonardo, the brazilian lurker > > > #104737 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:43 pm Subject: Three rounds, Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 7. nilovg Dear Lukas, Text: Dhammacakkappavattanasutta: And then on the setting in motion of the Wheel of the Dhamma by the Blessed One, the terrestrial devas raised a shout - "The unsurpassed Wheel of Dhamma has been set in motion by the Blessed One, at Baranasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana, and this cannot be turned back by any recluse or Brahmin or deva or Mara or Brahma or by anyone in the world". -------- Pali: Pavattite ca pana Bhagavataa dhammacakke Bhummaa devaa saddamanussaavesu.m - "eta.m Bhagavataa Baaraa.nasiya.m Isipatane Migadaaye anuttara.m dhammacakka.m pavattita.m appa.tivattiya.m sama.nena vaa braahma.nena vaa devena vaa maarena vaa brahmunaa vaa kenaci vaa lokasmin"ti. --------- Commentary: co: The Wheel of Dhamma (dhammacakka): this is penetrative understanding as well as the knowledge of teaching. As to penetrative understanding, this understanding of the four truths in twelve modes arose in him while sitting under the Bodhitree. As to the knowledge of teaching the truth in twelve modes, this was set in motion when he was sitting in Isipattana. These two kinds of knowledge were in the heart of the person with the ?Ten Powers? (dasa bala). The Wheel of Dhamma was set in motion when the blessed One proclaimed his teaching. In so far as the Thera ?Konda~n~na who has understood? (a~n~naasiko.n.da~n~na) , together with eighteen times ten million (ko.tis) brahmans was established in the fruition of the ?stream-enterer? (sotaapanna), in so far the Blessed One set in motion this Wheel of Dhamma, and because of this establishment it is said of the Wheel that it is set in motion. ---------- N: The Ten Powers (dasabala) are explained in the ?Middle Length Sayings, sutta 12, Mahaasiihanadasutta (I, 70, 71).These are knowledge of kamma and its result, knowledge of the ?world?. which is, as the commentary states, the world of the khandhas, aayatanas (sensefields) and dhaatus (elements). These powers also include knowledge of his former lives, knowing the passing away and rebirth of other beings, knowledge of the disposition and the faculties of other beings, etc. . ------ Pali text co: Dhammacakketi pa.tivedha~naa.ne ceva desanaa~naa.ne ca. Bodhipalla`nke nisinnassa hi catuusu saccesu uppanna.m dvaadasaakaara.m pa.tivedha~naa.nampi, isipatane nisinnassa dvaadasaakaaraaya saccadesanaaya pavattita.m desanaa~naa.nampi dhammacakka.m naama. Ubhayampi heta.m dasabalassa ure pavatta~naa.nameva. Imaaya desanaaya pakaasentena bhagavataa dhammacakka.m pavattita.m naama. Ta.m paneta.m dhammacakka.m yaava a~n~naasiko.n.da~n~natthero a.t.thaarasahi brahmako.tiihi saddhi.m sotaapattiphale pati.t.thaati, taava na.m bhagavaa pavatteti naama, pati.t.thite ca pavattita.m naama. ------ Nina. #104738 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Emptiness _ The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriharnw nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 28-jan-2010, om 15:30 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > I would say Abhidhamma is compendium of emptiness. ------- N: Yes, the whole exposition of the abhidhamma points to anattaa, or in other words emptiness. It helps us to develop understanding that there are no persons, that all realities are non-self. The title of the article is the Abhidhammic theory, but people may not realize that it is not theory. Moreover what Acharn says is in complete agreement with the whole Tipi.taka and ancient Commentaries. She stresses that what she says is not her teaching. Everybody should check this for himself. Nina. #104739 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] terms and realities. ashkenn2k Dear Vince >--------- > >V: I understand the knowledge of what is real in front what is not real >it's a characteristic of an awakened mind talking to us. Then it is a >teaching to realize anatta and nibbana. Well, when we are traveling by >plane, Are we flying because the jet, or the wind, or the fuel...?. > >So it was my question for Sujin; regarding D.O. and the conditionality >of paramattha-dhammas. >----- >N: What is real and what is not real: we have to know the difference >between realities as they appear one at a time through the six doors, >and concepts that are not real. >-------- KO:? Let me explain this part.? When you are sleeping in the jet plane, is there a jet plane, would citta knows you are sleeping on the jet plane.? It is only when you think about it then you know you are in the jet plane.? The thinking is real.? Just like we think we own a house, or this is my house.? When we are engross looking at a TV show, the house at that moment is not longer there as there is no thinking of it.?? Only when we think a house then there is thinking of a house.? The thinking is real but the house, the jet plane are just mental objects of the thinking.? Cheers Ken O #104740 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Emptiness _ The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriha upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Leonardo) - In a message dated 1/28/2010 4:39:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Leonardo and Howard, Thank you. I know so little about mahaayana and I would like to leave it to Howard to judge this article. ------------------------------------------------ Nina, I'm not sure how I got involved in this. I'm no Mahayana expert, considering the Pali suttas, as I do, and not the Mahayana sutras, to be the word of the Buddha. As regards the article, from the link I only see a brief abstract. Where is the article itself available? On the face of it, I certainly don't associate Khun Sujin's perspective on the Dhamma with the Mahayanist notion of emptiness, but were I to read the article, I might learn differently. ---------------------------------------------------- For all I know: Kh Sujin stresses all the time that the Abhidhamma is not theoretical. That it refers to all realities appearing in daily life. It is always the reality appearing at the present moment that can be investigated if direct awareness arises, so that it is known as anattaa. Anattaa is the truth of all realities and this should be directly understood. Emptiness, su~n~nattaa, much emphasized in the different branches of Mahaayana, is the same as anattaa. It means emptiness of a self. -------------------------------------------------- Yes, but the meaning of 'self' in Mahayana may be a bit different from that in the Theravadin commentaries. Mahayana seems to use 'self' to refer to an alleged core of own being (or identity) in anything, including not only "the person" but also every nama and rupa - every dhamma. The shunyata of Mahayana is an asserted absence of own being in everything. That idea isn't missing from the Pali suttas, but it is not called "emptiness" there. Instead it is called "insubstantiality" or "unreality". --------------------------------------------------- Nina. ========================== With metta, Howard Unreal /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) #104741 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear Dieter > >D: Ken, that sounds to me like a physicist telling me : give up self delusion because there is no self in quantum! >Does that help me to develop dispassion towards feelings I meet in my (conventional ) world? KO:? Still there is no self in any quantum particles as all rupas are not self.? Dispassion could only arise with panna.? Only panna could eradicate passions of the heart like lobha and dosa.? >please read following excerpt with an open mind (' Uninstructed ' S.N. XII , 61 , transl. TB) >I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika' s monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there. KO:? Thanks Dieter,?this sutta show that?we dont need to be an Arahant to?understand not self, impermanence and suffer.? Because only panna would know the growth and decline of this body.? The growth and decline of the body is by conditions, the natural phenomena.? And understand the moment that rupa is not self, that is the growing of dispassion. > >"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness, ' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. KO:? Again, this shows, as long as one hold on the idea that there is a self, then one is unable to release from it.?If?there is an?idea that there must be a self that is developing, it?would only?condition more?latency.? >and S.N. XII .65 The City ( excerpt) please see in full http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ sn/sn12/sn12. 065.than. htm > >......."In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form. .. consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path. > >"Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings." > >Please note by 'following that path ...' KO:? there is definitely?the 4NT?path whether there is?arisen of the Buddha or not.? Only with the arisen of Buddha, then the 4NT path is make known.?? The path all accumualtes in panna.? Only with arisen of panna, will sila be samma, samadhi is samma and all the other factors.? >D: well, one needs panna (in particular insight of anicca, dukkha and anatta) to get rid off ignorance (avijja) , and for the disciple the instruction to realize that means the sila, samadhi , panna Path training. >Seemingly you assume to obtain that without the instructions of practise and its translation by one's effort.. > KO:? Whatever Buddha teach?is?satipatthana.? And satipatthana is the understanding of reality at the present moment.??? As I said above, with the arisen of panna, sila is samma or always kusala, similar to samadhi.? But there?could be?miccha sila and miccha samadhi.? Panna does not depend on sila and?samadhi for development.???Rather only with panna, could sila and samadhi reach perfection. Cheers Ken O #104742 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 5. ashkenn2k Dear Lukas >Nina there are issuse I wanna to rise in my questions to Acharn. Like metta object for devlopment and karuna object for devlopment. >In my life I cannot get karuna or metta while sitting and applaying the object like desc. in Vsm. > >But I can feel so much metta and karuna to people during the day. > >metta cause I see how kusala easily arise with me. The guy who is beating his wife. I could feel it with him. I saw all kinds of akusala in my life and now I know this is very conditioned. > >I have no bad thoughts on him or anyone. Or if I had, conditioned, then just give me a metta please. > >And karuna(compassion) to all people that does not understand 4 Noble Truths, or dont even heard them KO:? If we keep expecting to have metta, then it is impossible to have metta because expectations only condition more lobha.??Dont worry if it does not arise.? But be assured that?when one develop understanding, metta will?slowly be developed.? Because?with the arisen of panna, there is always arisen of metta.??? In addition, metta is develop through the understanding of nama and rupa.? Only when we see being as namas and rupas, then we will see there is that there is no distinction that this is brother, or my clan, there is no view of discrimination, there is no lobha to any beings. Metta depends on panna.?Compassions depends on panna.? That is why Buddha has great compassion because he has great understanding.? And also he takes a long time to develop.???Develop understanding of?seeing, hearing etc.? ?If metta does not arise, so be it.??If anger arise, just know it as aversion.? If aksuala arise, they are also just condition dhammas.? be patient and continue to consider dhamma. dont be concern how many kusala arise or not arise,?they are just anatta?:-) ? Cheers Ken O #104743 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:25 pm Subject: Re:Notes about the three rounds, no 2. moellerdieter Dear Nina and Sarah,All, it is interesting to read this notes , am I correct to assume that this introduction of the 4 Noble Truths by Acharn Sujin repesents as well the base understanding of the group of her students (?) I believe future discussions may be much easier when 'outsiders' incl. me get a better understanding how the Acharn e.g. approaches the 8fold Noble Path : ' quoting : As regards the fourth Noble Truth, the way leading to the end of dukkha,we should have the firm understanding that the development of satipatthana is the only way leading to this goal. We should understand the difference between right view and wrong view. When we are really convinced that there is no other way but the development of satipatthana,we shall not deviate from the right Path. Thus, we should not follow after the past nor desire for the future, we should be aware of any reality appearing now .' I know that speeches must be seen in context of the situation and understanding of the audience . Do you think , in case the Acharn would adress Dhamma students from other schools to explain in brief the path training /application , would you assume no change or (what) different wording ? with Metta Dieter #104744 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 5. szmicio Dear Ken O, Thank you for your support. Being aware of each moment whether kusala or akusala. This is very helpful to hear that. Best wishes Lukas > KO:? If we keep expecting to have metta, then it is impossible to >have metta because expectations only condition more lobha.??Dont >worry if it does not arise.? But be assured that?when one develop >understanding, metta will?slowly be developed.? Because?with the >arisen of panna, there is always arisen of metta.??? #104745 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:46 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Ken O, sorry for delay, I have still your last message (24th) in mind .. it would be quite useful for understanding to translate your comments into the pattern of the 8 fold Noble Path , ideally corresponding to the Sila- Samadhi - Panna sequence of the training. Though perhaps a general discussion about Acharn Sujin's approach as I suggested to Nina and Sarah could make it easier for a start.. with Metta Dieter #104746 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Emptiness _ The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriha nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for answering. Anyway, you have read more than I about Mahayana. I did not see the whole article either. Op 28-jan-2010, om 18:21 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Yes, but the meaning of 'self' in Mahayana may be a bit different from > that in the Theravadin commentaries. Mahayana seems to use 'self' > to refer > to an alleged core of own being (or identity) in anything, > including not > only "the person" but also every nama and rupa - every dhamma. The > shunyata > of Mahayana is an asserted absence of own being in everything. That > idea > isn't missing from the Pali suttas, but it is not called > "emptiness" there. > Instead it is called "insubstantiality" or "unreality". ------ N: Middle Length Sayings, Su~n~nata-vagga. Many suttas on su~n~nata. These are not easy to understand, there is the use of emptiness in different contexts. Nina. #104747 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three rounds, no 5. nilovg Dear Ken O, I like your answer and I will read it aloud when I read Lukas' question. Nina. Op 28-jan-2010, om 18:55 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Metta depends on panna. Compassions depends on panna #104748 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:40 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re:Notes about the three rounds, no 2. nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 28-jan-2010, om 19:25 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > quoting : As regards the fourth Noble Truth, the way leading to the > end of dukkha,we should have the firm understanding that the > development of > satipatthana is the only way leading to this goal. We should > understand the difference between right view and wrong view. When > we are really > convinced that there is no other way but the development of > satipatthana,we shall not deviate from the right Path. Thus, we > should not follow > after the past nor desire for the future, we should be aware of any > reality appearing now .' > > I know that speeches must be seen in context of the situation and > understanding of the audience . > Do you think , in case the Acharn would adress Dhamma students from > other schools to explain in brief the path training /application , > would you assume no change or (what) different wording ? ------- N: The essence is there: investigate the present reality. The truth will not be known merely by thinking, there has to be direct awareness of realities and that is satipatthaana. Do not deviate from the right Path that is awareness of all realities appearing now, in daily life. Defilements included. For some people this explanation may be too short, and then they can ask for more explanations. We have to listen again and again in order to understand the truth. What about you? What would you like to be explained more? ------- Nina. #104749 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:21 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Chuck, you wrote: (D: [Name deleted] this list is stated to be a Theravada ( Teaching of the Elders) Buddhist list , i.e. its base is the Pali Canon.. and the decision whether true or false Dhamma depends on what has been said and what not according to the Tipitaka.. ) C: FWIW, over the many years since joining in 2001, I strongly felt the same. Far, far too, too many incidences have I felt I was at a Mādhyamikas Buddha list; rather, than at a Theravadin Buddha list!!! D: well, .... until proven wrong/false in respect to the Canon .. Besides the grand references mentioned in the Maha Parinibbana Sutta, the Buddha declared the appearance of the 8fold Noble Path crucial in each teaching for any possibility of nobility..the 4 states of holiness. with Metta Dieter #104750 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary nilovg Dear Dieter I put your remarks in my file, but perhaps you can formulate more questions? Nina. Op 28-jan-2010, om 19:46 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > it would be quite useful for understanding to translate your > comments into the pattern of the 8 fold Noble Path , ideally > corresponding to the Sila- Samadhi - Panna sequence of the training. > Though perhaps a general discussion about Acharn Sujin's approach > as I suggested to Nina and Sarah could make it easier for a start.. #104751 From: Vince Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VIRUS in Dhammastudy.com website: be careful cerovzt@... yes, of course. If someday you need help you can write me. About the texts, until now I take electronic texts from the Zolag website. If you know of different texts in another sites it would be good know it. best, Vince, ptaus1 wrote: > Thanks for letting us all know and for the useful links. I'm not > sure who maintains that website. Also good to know you're a > programmer in case we need a bit of technical help in the future. > While that website is inaccessible, perhaps let us know what > particular works you wanted to read there - as I remember, many of > the works there are also available on other sites. > Best wishes > pt #104752 From: Vince Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: >> V: Until today I understand in Samadhi there is not an understanding >> process in the sense of a reflection process (I mean, a judgement of >> the object to know if this is kusala or akusala). > ------- > N: In samaadhi or tranquil meditation understanding is necessary, it > is pa~n~naa that directly knows whether the citta at that moment is > kusala or akusala. This is not merely reflection, but direct > understanding of the citta. In samatha pa~n~naa understand kusala as > kusala and akusala as akusala, but not as anattaa. In vipassanaa, > when pa~n~naa is developed, realities are understood as anattaa. > This is not a matter of the object being kusala or akusala, it > concerns the citta at that moment, is it kusala or akusala? The > object can be one of the kasinas or one of the recollections. > ----------- ok, thanks, Now I understand. Then, Do you think the pannaa which arises in samatha can be a situation more frequent for the people cultivating jhana seated in the floor, etc.?. As still I don't know enough Abhidhamma and also according Sujin, I dont' have clear if panna arising in vipassana it's a more comfortable (or perhaps frequent) situation in the practice than arising in samatha. It's so? > N: There are many types and degrees, but in this context I refer to > samatha. > Right concentration is also one of the Path factors, as you know. It > focusses on the naama or ruupa appearing at the present moment. I understand. Very clarifier, thanks! Vince. #104753 From: Vince Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] terms and realities. cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: In other words, more understanding of what nibbaana is. But this > is possible only at the moment of enlightenment. First conditioned > realities have to be understood more and more clearly before nibbaana > can be attained. yes of course. But I wonder many times our needed efforts to get right understanding are not other thing than the establishment in oneself of the support conditions for the progress: (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html) > N: Agreed, nibbaana is the highest peace. But in order to attain it, > the development of understanding is indispensable. So, we can say, > for the moment, right understanding is our goal. yes, without any doubt. Without understanding we don't know what we are doing. Many people can do seated meditation for years without asking too many things which are needed to ask, and they only accumulate kamma. Btw, it is not only words but a frequent situation here in Europe, in example with many Soto-Zen practitioners (and despite the historical founder he read a lot before building his anti-rationalist teaching). I think now in somebody which want to be painter. If he reject learn about shadows, techniques and colors, the result is not satisfactory even for himself. > N: What is real and what is not real: we have to know the difference > between realities as they appear one at a time through the six doors, > and concepts that are not real. > Quote from Cambodia talks [...] thanks for the cite, Vince, #104754 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:07 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ksheri3 Good Morning Dieter, Your parley w/ Ken O. has given me such a comfort knowing that we both share similar frustrations. I was gonna make a jest at your continual beating your head against a brick wall through your continued attempts to help KO arrive at your understanding of how a person "releases" their preconceptions and the dependence on those preconceptions which form their reality, AS THE MEANS OF ACHIEVING A STATE OF SAMADHI with which they can do whatever they choose to do. It's a very REFLECTIVE display of consiousness. Thanx. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Ken O, > > you wrote: > > D: Ken, we need to work with our more or less developed/deluded state of wisdom ... > As I understand you seem to presume what indeed has to be developed by the 3 fold Noble Path training: sila -samadhi -panna. > The point of anatta is only fully realized by deep penetration , because it means (Khanda) detachment , finally only managed by the Arahant. > Before it is belief of the intellect still waiting for real insight and it will be a (micca) ditthi , when one may conclude : as ultimately there is no I/self > any intentional effort is fruitless..` <...> #104755 From: Vince Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:24 am Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] terms and realities. cerovzt@... Dear Ken you wrote: > KO:? Let me explain this part.? When you are sleeping in the jet > plane, is there a jet plane, would citta knows you are sleeping on > the jet plane.? It is only when you think about it then you know you > are in the jet plane.? The thinking is real.? I agree > Just like we think we own a house, or this is my house.? When we > are engross looking at a TV show, the house at that moment is not > longer there as there is no thinking of it.?? Only when we think a > house then there is thinking of a house.? The thinking is real but > the house, the jet plane are just mental objects of the thinking.? yes, I agree. But also, note when we say that we were sleeping, we are knowing only by inference, because in that moment it was not citta. So, Are we sure the house existed while we were sleeping?. We cannot know it. Just we are inferring that. Reality is both consciousness and nama&rupa arising in a dependent way. The knowledge of Reality in front concepts exist subsequently from that co-dependent arising. As you knows, this knowledge arise when citta knows without the veil of the -self construction, who take the actions of cittas as their owns. In the case of a situation of unveiled -self, the knowledge of the dependent relation between naama&rupa and consciousness would become an automatic and unavoidable consequence. So in fact there are not two ways driving to different lands. However, at least I understand that when one try to investigate emptiness and reality, also one should be aware of that. I mean, what in Abhidhamma we name "real" it is the result of both consciousness and nama&rupa arising here-and-now in a co-dependent way. When we say "rupa exist while there is experience of rupa", also it means: "rupa arises while there is arising of consciousness". I understand it can be important regarding emptiness. Of course, consequences of dependent origination explanation are enormous as happens with Abhidhamma, and I don't have idea about pattica-sammupada in depth; just I talk about this concrete point. Well, sorry but I don't have enough knowledge of dhamma to explain me better. Hope you understand my point regarding D.O. best wishes, Vince, #104756 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: VIRUS in Dhammastudy.com website: be careful ptaus1 Hi Vince, > V: yes, of course. If someday you need help you can write me. Thanks very much. > V: About the texts, until now I take electronic texts from the Zolag > website. If you know of different texts in another sites it would be > good know it. Yes, Zolag is great. There are a few other places that have Nina's, A.Sujin's and other works, you might already know them, but here they are just in case: http://www.vipassana.info/contents-vipassana.htm http://www.dhammahome.com/home_en.php http://www.abhidhamma.com/ and of course, apart from the Links and Files sections here, there are also: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ http://www.wuala.com/nichicon Best wishes pt #104757 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Emptiness _ The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriha szmicio Hi Howard, that in the Theravadin commentaries. Mahayana seems to use 'self' to refer > to an alleged core of own being (or identity) in anything, including not > only "the person" but also every nama and rupa - every dhamma. The shunyata > of Mahayana is an asserted absence of own being in everything. That idea > isn't missing from the Pali suttas, but it is not called "emptiness" there. > Instead it is called "insubstantiality" or "unreality". > --------------------------------- L: I can tell you Howard, that Theravadan dhammas saw as real is very tricky thing. In reality Buddha(and Theras) had never teached that all dhammas are real. They are real in the sense that they can be known. And that doesnt mean that they aren't empty. Sabbe dhamma anatta. All dhammas are empty. Even Nibbana. Anattaness and emptiness is more the same. Theras had their own intentions not to be too much speculative about things so they just called anatta, sunjata. They left further speculations on emptiness, they said: emptiness can be known by the characteristic of each dhamma now. Also the idea of bodhisatta is very dangerous. It can easily takes us in, so theras decided not to say much on this. Just develop 4 Noble Truths. This is only different vibhanga that mahayana gives us. They've decided that would be best. Realities are the same. Best wishes Lukas #104758 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:50 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 8, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, The teaching on the factors of the eightfold Path as well as the teaching on the Four Applications of Mindfulness pertain to the development of right understanding of realities in daily life, but they each show different aspects. The teaching on the Path factors shows us that for the development of right understanding there are, apart from the factor right understanding, other Path factors which are the conditions for right understanding to perform its function in order that the goal can be reached, the eradication of defilements. In explaining the Four Applications of Mindfulness the Buddha encouraged people to be mindful in any situation of their daily life. In the Contemplation of Citta is first mentioned citta with attachment and this can remind us not to shun akusala as object of mindfulness. The Buddha explained that there can be mindfulness of realities no matter whether one is walking, standing, sitting or lying down, no matter what one is doing. Those who develop tranquil meditation and attain calm, even to the degree of absorption, can be mindful of realities. The Buddha showed that there isn?t any reality which cannot be object of mindfulness and right understanding. When one develops right understanding of any reality which appears there is no need to think of the Four Applications of Mindfulness or of the Path factors. The Buddha?s teaching on the development of right understanding of realities is deep, it is not easy to grasp what mindfulness and right understanding are. For this reason I would like to give a further explanation of objects of mindfulness which present themselves in daily life. Some people believe that mindfulness is being conscious of what one is doing. If one is conscious of what one is doing, such as reading or walking, there is thinking of concepts, no awareness of realities. There is clinging to an idea of self who reads or walks. No matter what one is doing there are mental phenomena and physical phenomena and understanding of them can be developed. When one, for example, is watching T.V., there can be thinking of a story which is being enacted. However, there is not only thinking, there are also seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, feeling or remembrance. ******* Nina. #104759 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:03 pm Subject: Re: The Natural Way of Development jonoabb Hi Alex (104713) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > Jon, when you have said that "kusala can arise spontaneously", are you saying that it is un-caused, un-produced, not brought into being? > =============== I was using 'spontaneously' to mean "without the need for prior directed effort", as we have been using the term in our earlier messages in this thread -- see for example your last message to me #104645: "At first, there must be a directed effort (because there isn't much kusala qualities. A perfect kusala just doesn't appear from thin air). After a while, kusala will arise spontaneously and by itself, without directed effort. But again, the spontaneous actions are the result of long developed habits." To my understanding, as long as there is some accumulated tendency of kusala, the arising of kusala spontaneously (i.e., without the need for prior directed effort) is potentially possible. And I think we have all had personal experience of spontaneous kusala in our own lives. Jon #104760 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (9) sarahprocter... Dear Han, ? This has been a wonderful series. I really appreciate all Sayadaw U Nyanissara's explanations from the commentary - this commentary to Snp hasn't been translated into English. I know it's very extensive and is one of the oldest texts - traditionally always recited with the suttas. I wonder if the Sayadaw has given talks based on the commentaries to other Snp suttas? The extracts you've given really stress the point that without the added commentary, we often miss the point of the pithy verses as others have pointed out. For example, it would be easy to read the Buddha as suggesting that he's without family, cattle and so on because he has left the lay life. However, this would be a very simplistic understanding which would miss all that is intended as referring to the giving up of tanha, regardless of the circumstances. --- On Mon, 25/1/10, han tun wrote: >Here, Sayadaw spoke the standard expression of becoming an arahant: dwelling alone (eko viharato), withdrawn (vuupaka.t.tho) , diligent (appamatto), ardent (aataapii), and resolute (pahitatto), and in no time (nacirasseva) both of them became arahants. ... S: These are just the lines we were discussing before with Suan. As you say, "the standard expression of becoming an arahant". No more of tanha as partner:). Thank you again for all your wise reflections and clear presentation. Metta Sarah ======= #104761 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:10 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary jonoabb Hi Deiter (104715) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > D: Because the usual mind-state is that 'just as a monkey wondering in a big forest seizes a branch and letting go of it seizes another, similarly , bhikkhus, of what is called mind , is called though, is called consciousness, one moment arises at another ceases continually both day and night .' > SNXII, 61) , > =============== Yes, I'm familiar with the monkey simile. I don't think that simile has to do with the nature of the present mind-state. Please see the commentary notes on this in CDB (the Bhikkhu Bodhi translaiton) at page 770, note 157. According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, the point of the simile is that "the mind is always dependent on an object". He points out that "neither the sutta nor the commentary interprets the monkey simile here as saying that the untrained mind is as restless as a monkey". > =============== awareness needs to calm down body and mind . > =============== If you are suggesting some kind of preparatory training, I would disagree. That is not part of the monkey simile. > =============== > The Satipatthana Sutta starts with that and provides us with the framework (the remembrance) which needs to be established by contemplation of body, feeling, (the state of ) mind and mind objects in details , among those the 5 hindrances and what to do with that ' blinding of our mental vision' > =============== On my reading of the Satipatthana Sutta, the division of dhammas into 4 groups (or 'foundations') is for the purpose of explanation and clarification, rather than to specify an order of 'practice'. > =============== > D: I think you misunderstood , Jon . > I hinted to the simile of the arrow : MN 63 in which the Buddha gave Malunkya a severe lecture ..excerpt of http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html > "It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. ... > > I refered to wellknown simile of the poisened arrow in order to emphasize by 'the point is not forget over one's reflection ' , needs to remove the arrow ,that one needs to start , needs to go on with the training .. > > =============== I agree that the point of the poisoned arrow simile is the urgency of the task of developing the path, and the folly of pursuing lines of inquiry that are not directly relevant to that. > =============== > D: MN 44 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html (besides MN 78 and - if I remember correctly VisM.) > > ' Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment." > =============== Thanks for the sutta reference. However, the division of the factors of the NEP into sila, samadhi and panna in that sutta is not explained there as being a sequencing of the practice. > =============== > D: compare e.g. with DN 16 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html > Thus it was said by the Blessed One. And the Happy One, the Master, further said: > Through not seeing the Four Noble Truths, Long was the weary path from birth to birth. When these are known, removed is rebirth's cause, The root of sorrow plucked; then ends rebirth. 4. And also at Kotigama the Blessed One often gave counsel to the bhikkhus thus: "Such and such is virtue; such and such is concentration; and such and such is wisdom. Great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of concentration when it is fully developed by virtuous conduct; great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of wisdom when it is fully developed by concentration; utterly freed from the taints of lust, becoming, and ignorance is the mind that is fully developed in wisdom." > =============== Yes, concentration is of greater fruit when it is the concentration of one whose sila has been perfected (i.e., of a stream-enterer). And likewise wisdom is of greater fruit when it is the wisdom of one whose concentration has been perfected (i.e., of an anagami). However, nothing in the passage you've quoted suggests that the development of awareness is dependent on sila or samadhi having been developed to a certain level first. > =============== > Yes, deliberate reflection on the moment of consciousness necessarily lags behind whatever moment of consciousness is being reflected on. Which is why I do not read the teaching on right effort to be stipulating such reflection. > > > D: the point is to recognize e.g. anger already at the state of arising , or when it has already arisen to overcome it .. > the point of training to minimize to lag behind .. avoiding that the unwholesome is unfolding..e.g. anger , for which I assume you already use this stipulation , don' t you? > =============== To my understanding, the point of the development of insight is for dhammas to be seen as they truly are, rather than for presently arising akusala to be temporarily suppressed. Right effort accompanies every moment of awareness and insight, regardless of the object of awareness at the moment. So even when the object of awareness/insight is a rupa (such as visible object or sound), right effort is performing one of its fourfold functions. In terms of avoidance, every moment of awareness/insight accumulates the tendency for the avoidance of akusala in the future. Of course, if awareness happens to arise in the midst of anger, it momentarily displaces the anger and so there is avoidance in that sense also. Any other kind of 'dealing with' akusala is merely a temporary suppression and thus, even if kusala, does nothing to reduce the underlying tendency for the unwholesome conduct in question. Jon #104762 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Emptiness _ The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriha upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 1/29/2010 2:19:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, szmicio@... writes: Hi Howard, that in the Theravadin commentaries. Mahayana seems to use 'self' to refer > to an alleged core of own being (or identity) in anything, including not > only "the person" but also every nama and rupa - every dhamma. The shunyata > of Mahayana is an asserted absence of own being in everything. That idea > isn't missing from the Pali suttas, but it is not called "emptiness" there. > Instead it is called "insubstantiality" or "unreality". > --------------------------------- L: I can tell you Howard, that Theravadan dhammas saw as real is very tricky thing. In reality Buddha(and Theras) had never teached that all dhammas are real. They are real in the sense that they can be known. And that doesnt mean that they aren't empty. Sabbe dhamma anatta. All dhammas are empty. Even Nibbana. Anattaness and emptiness is more the same. Theras had their own intentions not to be too much speculative about things so they just called anatta, sunjata. They left further speculations on emptiness, they said: emptiness can be known by the characteristic of each dhamma now. Also the idea of bodhisatta is very dangerous. It can easily takes us in, so theras decided not to say much on this. Just develop 4 Noble Truths. This is only different vibhanga that mahayana gives us. They've decided that would be best. Realities are the same. Best wishes Lukas =================================== What Theravada takes 'anattata' and 'su~n~nata' to refer to, as I understand it, is that all dhammas are not "me" or "mine;" they are impersonal. The insubstantiality, ungraspability, contingent nature, and "unreality" of dhammas (along with their impersonality), are, in combination, referred to in Mahayana as "shunyata." Though certainly these matters are all spoken of in various Pali suttas [In this regard, please see the material at the end of this post], they are not described there using not-self and emptiness terminology. There is thus that difference in terminological usage between the two schools. With metta, Howard /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) -------------------------------------------- /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) ------------------------------------------- /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) --------------------------------------- /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) #104763 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:57 pm Subject: Re: The Natural Way of Development truth_aerator Hi Jon all, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > >I was using 'spontaneously' to mean "without the need for prior >directed effort", as we have been using the term in our earlier >messages in this thread -- see for example your last message to me >#104645: > >To my understanding, as long as there is some accumulated tendency >of kusala, the arising of kusala spontaneously (i.e., without the >need for prior directed effort) is potentially possible. And I >think we have all had personal experience of spontaneous kusala in >our own lives . Jon So you say that: 1)'spontaneously' to mean "without the need for prior directed effort" 2) As long as there is some accumulated tendency of >kusala, the arising of kusala spontaneously (i.e., without the need >for prior directed effort) is potentially possible Question: How is there accumulation of past tendency for Kusala, that was responsible for spontaneous arising of kusala? Are you saying that one spontaneous kusala conditions the accumulations for later spontaneous kusala? It appears that we have fortuitous origination of Kusala, Jon! With metta, Alex #104764 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:36 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Jon and All, picking up the first of your comments , you wrote: D: Because the usual mind-state is that 'just as a monkey wondering in a big forest seizes a branch and letting go of it seizes another, similarly , bhikkhus, of what is called mind , is called though, is called consciousness, one moment arises at another ceases continually both day and night .' SNXII, 61) , awareness needs to calm down body and mind . Yes, I'm familiar with the monkey simile. I don't think that simile has to do with the nature of the present mind-state. Please see the commentary notes on this in CDB (the Bhikkhu Bodhi translaiton) at page 770, note 157. According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, the point of the simile is that "the mind is always dependent on an object". He points out that "neither the sutta nor the commentary interprets the monkey simile here as saying that the untrained mind is as restless as a monkey". D: I can't believe that .. the sutta is called the 'Uninstructed' ... excerpt from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html : "It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. "The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising: snip ... I maintain that it is obvious that the Buddha refers by the monkey simile to (the mind of ) the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person . Would be nice to get some opinion from the forum too... With Metta Dieter #104765 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:17 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Good evening Colette, (Ken O) thanks for your comment , you wrote: Your parley w/ Ken O. has given me such a comfort knowing that we both share similar frustrations. I was gonna make a jest at your continual beating your head against a brick wall through your continued attempts to help KO arrive at your understanding of how a person "releases" their preconceptions and the dependence on those preconceptions which form their reality, AS THE MEANS OF ACHIEVING A STATE OF SAMADHI with which they can do whatever they choose to do. It's a very REFLECTIVE display of consiousness. D: wondering what you would have said about my parley w/Ken H... ;-) Let me repeat what you mentioned in my words: I try to convince KO to release his/their preconceptions and the dependence on those preconceptions which form his/their reality by using the mean of achieving state of a samadhi any time he wants to ' , correct? When you mean by 'state of samadhi ' a calm and peaceful mind I agree .. sati isn't really developed otherwise ( compare with the beginning of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta) and then sati is only the first of the 7 wings ..but I think you know that .. with Metta Dieter , #104766 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:56 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Dear Nina, All, you wrote: : The essence is there: investigate the present reality. The truth will not be known merely by thinking, there has to be direct awareness of realities and that is satipatthaana. Do not deviate from the right Path that is awareness of all realities appearing now, in daily life. Defilements included. For some people this explanation may be too short, and then they can ask for more explanations. We have to listen again and again in order to understand the truth. What about you? What would you like to be explained more? ------- Nina. (D: it would be quite useful for understanding to translate your comments into the pattern of the 8 fold Noble Path , ideally corresponding to the Sila- Samadhi - Panna sequence of the training. Though perhaps a general discussion about Acharn Sujin's approach as I suggested to Nina and Sarah could make it easier for a start..) I put your remarks in my file, but perhaps you can formulate more questions? Nina. D: thanks for refering to my other mail as well , makes it easier for me to suggest some approach for better understanding .. taking the standard of the 8fold Noble Path (N.'s Dict.) 1. "What now, o monks, is right view (or right understanding)? It is the understanding of suffering, of the origin of suffering, of the extinction of suffering, and of the path leading to the extinction of suffering. 2. "What now, o monks, is right thought? It is a mind free from sensual lust, ill-will and cruelty. 3. "What now, o monks, is right speech? Abstaining from lying, tale-bearing, harsh words, and foolish babble (cf. tiraccha-nakatha-). 4. "What now, o monks, is right action? Abstaining from injuring living beings, from stealing and from unlawful sexual intercourse (s. ka-mesu miccha-ca-ra). 5. "What now, o monks, is right livelihood? If the noble disciple rejects a wrong living, and gains his living by means of right livelihood (s. magga, 5). 6. "What now, o monks, is right effort? If the disciple rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, demeritorious things that have not yet arisen; ... if he rouses his will to overcome the evil, demeritorious things that have already arisen; ... if he rouses his will to produce meritorious things that have not yet arisen; ... if he rouses his will to maintain the meritorious things that have already arisen and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development; he thus makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives (s. padha-na). 7. "What now, o monks is right mindfulness? If the disciple dwells in contemplation of corporeality ... of feeling ... of mind ... of the mind-objects, ardent, clearly conscious, and mindful after putting away worldly greed and grief (s. Satipat.t.ha-na). 8. "What now, o monks, is right concentration? If the disciple is detached from sensual objects, detached from unwholesome things, and enters into the first absorption ... the second absorption ... the third absorption ... the fourth absorption" (s. jha-na against A.S. 's comment : ' As regards the fourth Noble Truth, the way leading to the end of dukkha,we should have the firm understanding that the development of satipatthana is the only way leading to this goal. We should understand the difference between right view and wrong view. When we are really convinced that there is no other way but the development of satipatthana,we shall not deviate from the right Path. Thus, we should not follow after the past nor desire for the future, we should be aware of any reality appearing now .' My question is how does that fit together.. how do you link A.S.'s general comment with the 8 steps respectively with the sila, samadhi, panna training of the Noble Path? with Metta Dieter P.S.: I am wondering that only Alex responded to the recent remarks about Acharn Cha and.. #104767 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Three rounds, Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 8. nilovg Dear Lukas and friends, Dhammacakkappavattanasutta Text: Having heard the shout of the terrestrial devas, the Four Great Kings raised a shout - "The unsurpassed Wheel of Dhamma has been set in motion by the Blessed One, at Baranasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana, and this cannot be turned back by any recluse or Brahmin or deva or Mara or Brahma or by anyone in the world". Having heard the shout of the Four Great Kings, the Taavati.msa devas ... etc ...the Yaama devas ... etc ... the Tusita devas ... etc ... the Nimmanarati devas ... etc ... the Paranimmitavasavatti devas ... etc ... the devas of Brahma's body raised a shout: "The unsurpassed Wheel of Dhamma has been set in motion by the Blessed One, at Baranasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana, and this cannot be turned back by any recluse or Brahmin or deva or Mara or Brahma or by anyone in the world". -------- N: The devas of the different planes of existence raised a shout of exultation. There are six classes of devas of the sense sphere and the devas of the Four Great Kings are the lowest class. Each of the subsequent planes are higher with higher degrees of excellence. These are: the Taavati.msa heaven (the heaven of the Thirtythree), the Yaama heaven, the Tusita heaven, the heaven of Nimmaanaratii (of devas who delight in creating), the heaven of Paranimmitavasavatti (of devas who rule over others? creations). As to the brahma-kaayika devas, these include three heavens and birth in these is the result of the first stage of fine-material jhaana, ruupa-jhaana. The highest heaven of the brahma-kaayika devas is the plane of mahaa-brahma. There are still higher planes for those who are born as result of higher stages of ruupa-jhaana and of aruupa-jhaana, but these are not mentioned here in connection with the raising of the shout of joy. ---------- Pali:Bhummaana.m devaana.m sadda.m sutvaa Caatumahaaraajikaa devaa saddamanussaavesu.m - "eta.m Bhagavataa Baaraa.nasiya.m Isipatane Migadaaye anuttara.m dhammacakka.m pavattita.m, appa.tivattiya.m sama.nena vaa braahma.nena vaa devena vaa maarena vaa brahmunaa vaa kenaci vaa lokasmin"ti. Caatumahaaraajikaana.m devaana.m sadda.m sutvaa. Taavati.msaa devaa ...pe... Yaamaa devaa ...pe... Tusitaa devaa ...pe... Nimmaanaratii devaa ...pe... Paranimmitavasavattii devaa ...pe... Brahmakaayikaa devaa saddamanussaavesu.m - "eta.m Bhagavataa Baaraa.nasiya.m Isipatane Migadaaye anuttara.m dhammacakka.m pavattita.m appa.tivattiya.m sama.nena vaa braahma.nena vaa devena vaa maarena vaa brahmunaa vaa kenaci vaa lokasmin"ti. ------------ Nina. #104768 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Notes about the three rounds, no 3. nilovg Dear Lukas, Sarah: < When we listen to the Dhamma and consider what we hear the intellectual understanding of realities, that is, the first phase, sacca nana, gradually develops and then it can condition the arising of satipatthana. This means that the second phase, knowledge of the task, kicca nana, begins to develop. The practice, patipatti, is actually knowledge of the task that is to be performed, kicca nana. Thus, there are different levels of panna: intellectual understanding based on listening to the Dhamma, and panna accompanied by sati that is directly aware of the characteristics of realities appearing now through one of the six doorways. These are the dhammas we studied and considered before, but now they can gradually be verified and directly understood. Knowing the difference between the moment there is no sati but only thinking about nama and rupa, and the moment there is awareness of one characteristic of nama or rupa at a time is the beginning of the development of satipatthana. Gradually we shall realize nama as nama, and rupa as rupa, we shall realize their different characteristics. When one has reached the second phase, knowledge of the task or the practice, the first phase, intellectual understanding of the truth, is not abandoned but develops further. One understands more deeply what the four noble Truths are and one sees more clearly that satipatthana, awareness of what appears now is the only way leading to detachment from the idea of self and to nibbana which is the end of defilements. The clinging to self is deeply accumulated and very persistent. When panna develops it sees even the more subtle clinging to a self or the clinging to sati. A moment of right awareness is very short and attachment can arise in alternation with clinging. If panna is not keen enough, one will deviate from the right Path. There cannot be immediately clear understanding of realities, but we can begin to develop understanding of the realities we used to take for people, beings and things. Acharn Sujin reminded us that we should not move away from the present moment and that we should abandon desire for sati. She said that it seems that we wish to develop sati, reach the stages of insight and attain enlightenment, all for our own sake. However, the goal of the development of satipatthana should be understanding of the truth of anatta, thus, the truth that there is no ?me?.> (end quote) ***** NIna. #104769 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:35 pm Subject: Re: The Natural Way of Development jonoabb Hi Alex (104763) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Question: How is there accumulation of past tendency for Kusala, that was responsible for spontaneous arising of kusala? > > Are you saying that one spontaneous kusala conditions the accumulations for later spontaneous kusala? > > It appears that we have fortuitous origination of Kusala, Jon! > =============== No, I'm not advancing a theory of fortuitous origination of kusala! We do not need to concern ourselves with the question of first origination (to my understanding, the Buddha has declared this to be unfathomable). We are concerned only with how things are now, that is to say, in the case of beings who have been faring on in samsara for incalculable aeons already. I'm sure you'd have had the experience of finding yourself reflecting (in a kusala way) on dhamma matters without having first made a conscious decision to do so. That would be an example of kusala arising without the need for prior directed effort. Jon #104770 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:41 pm Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary jonoabb Hi Dieter (104764) > According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, the point of the simile is that "the mind is always dependent on an object". He points out that "neither the sutta nor the commentary interprets the monkey simile here as saying that the untrained mind is as restless as a monkey". > > D: I can't believe that .. the sutta is called the 'Uninstructed' ... > excerpt from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html : "It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. > "The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising: > > snip ... > > I maintain that it is obvious that the Buddha refers by the monkey simile to (the mind of ) the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person . > =============== I agree that the sutta is directed to the uninstructed worldling. However, I think the descriptions of body and mind given in the sutta are of general application, i.e., are describing the body and mind of beings in general and not just the uninstructed worldling. The difference between the uninstructed worldling and the instructed noble disciple is not in the nature of the body or the mind as described but in how the body and mind are clung to. This difference is explained in the sutta as follows: - while the uninstructed worldling may readily be able to develop dispassion towards the body (i.e., to not take the body for self), he is unable to do the same with regards to the mind; - the instructed noble disciple, however, by attending closely to dependent origination, is able develop dispassion towards all 5 khandhas (i.e., both the body and the mind). So getting back to the monkey simile, here the Buddha is speaking as if it would make more sense for the uninstructed worldling to take the body for self rather than the mind, because of the obvious incessant change of the mind in contrast to the apparent slowness of change of the body. > Would be nice to get some opinion from the forum too... Of course. Other views/comments always welcome ;-)) Jon #104771 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:44 pm Subject: Epilogue to a book, and On Study (Ajah Chah) truth_aerator Hello all, Here is an interesting way to end a Book of talks by Ven. Ajahn Chah === Do you know where it will end? Or will you just keep on learning like this? Or is there an end to it? Thats okay but its the external study, not the internal study. For the internal study you have to study these eyes, these ears, this nose, this tongue, this body and this mind. This is the real study. The study of books is just the external study, its really hard to get it finished. When the eye sees form what sort of things happens? When ear, nose, and tongue experience sounds, smells and tastes, what takes place? When the body and mind come into contact with touches and mental states, what reactions take place? Are there still greed, aversion and delusion there? Do we get lost in forms, sounds, smells, tastes, textures and moods? This is the internal study. It has a point of completion. If we study but dont practice we wont get any results. Its like a person who raises cows. In the morning he takes the cow out to eat grass, in the evening he brings it back to its pen ?" but he never drinks the cows milk. Study is alright, but dont let it be like this. You should raise the cow and drink its milk too. You must study and practice as well to get the best results. Here, Ill explain it further. Its like a person who raises chickens, but he doesnt get the eggs. All he gets is the chicken dung! This is what I tell people who raise chickens back home! Watch out you dont become like that! This means we study the scriptures but we dont know how to let go of defilements, we dont know how to push greed, aversion and delusion from our mind. Study without practice, without this giving up, brings no results. This is why I compare it to someone who raises chickens but doesnt collect the eggs, he just collects the dung. Its the same thing. Because of this, the Buddha wanted us to study the scriptures, and then to give up evil actions through body, speech and mind; to develop goodness in our deeds, speech and thoughts. The real worth of mankind will come to fruition through our deeds, speech and thoughts. But if we only talk well, without acting accordingly, its not yet complete. Or if we do good deeds but the mind is still not good, this is still not complete. The Buddha taught to develop fine deeds, fine speech and fine thoughts. This is the treasure of mankind. The study and the practice must both be good. The Eightfold Path of the Buddha, the path of practice, has eight factors. These eight factors are nothing other than this very body: two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, one tongue and one body. This is the path. And the mind is the one who follows the path. Therefore both the study and the practice exist in our body, speech and mind. Have you ever seen scriptures which teach about anything other than the body, the speech and the mind? The scriptures only teach about this; nothing else. Defilements are born here. If you know them they die right here. So you should understand that the practice and the study both exist right here. If we study just this much we can know everything. Its like our speech: to speak one word of Truth is better than a lifetime of wrong speech. Do you understand? One who studies and doesnt practice is like a ladle of soup pot. Its in the pot every day but it doesnt know the flavor of the soup. If you dont practice, even if you study till the day you die, you wont know the taste of Freedom! Taste of Freedom PDF and from the "Food for the Heart Book" === With metta, Alex #104772 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:01 pm Subject: Re: The Natural Way of Development truth_aerator Dear Jon, Nina, all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (104763) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Question: How is there accumulation of past tendency for Kusala, that was responsible for spontaneous arising of kusala? > > > > Are you saying that one spontaneous kusala conditions the accumulations for later spontaneous kusala? > > > > It appears that we have fortuitous origination of Kusala, Jon! > > =============== > > No, I'm not advancing a theory of fortuitous origination of kusala! Then please explain how accumulation of Kusala happens without to resorting to the answer of "prior kusala". That would be infinite regression and akin to saying that "a child always could ride a bike, that is why he can ride the bike now". >We do not need to concern ourselves with the question of first >origination (to my understanding, the Buddha has declared this to be >unfathomable). The question is not exactly about The First Cause of Kusala. The question is what conditions the arising of sponteneous Kusala. You say it is prior Kusala. Ok. What conditions that prior Kusala state? Like I've said. At least *some* sponteneous mental responses (such as kusala or akusala) were consciously developed at some point in the past. The unthinking and spontaneous ability to ride a bike, at some point was not originally an unconscious action! At first a child had to learn, through trial and error, through learning devices and help from others, how to ride a bike. Sure, many of the Buddha's teaching are like skillful means, like two extra wheels, or riding a tricycle, metaphorically speaking, to help 'a child to learn to ride a bike'. Note: a preliminary training is not superfluous. A child being overconfident and going for the real bike, without practicing on tricycle (hey what is the point in practicing on a tricycle if you are going to ride a bicycle!), may fall down and break his limbs. Another thing: If the child refuses to practice riding a a bike (until he is perfect and has accumulations for it), then he will NEVER ride it! Similar is with samatha. If you never practice it, it will never be good! The people who are succesful with samatha are those who have practiced it and all the relevant things. At one point they themselves were terrible at it. So what? They didn't give up. They didn't refuse to try (and perhaps get hurt 'knocking against walls' in the process). "No pain, no gain" as a saying goes. "Hard in training, easy in battle" is another saying that I like. Natural response, at some point WAS unnatural. Considering that we have done akusala for AEONS, that would make akusala natural - while kusala *unnatural*. We have to go against the stream of past akusala accumulations (a much higher accumulation, btw). >I'm sure you'd have had the experience of finding yourself >reflecting (in a kusala way) on dhamma matters without having first >made a conscious decision to do so. I have been aware of sponteneously doing the above. However those are *results* of deliberate development. >That would be an example of kusala arising without the need for >prior directed effort. > > Jon See above. With metta, Alex #104773 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 29-jan-2010, om 19:56 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > against A.S. 's comment : > ' As regards the fourth Noble Truth, the way leading to the end of > dukkha,we should have the firm understanding that the development > of satipatthana is the only way leading to this goal. We should > understand the difference between right view and wrong view. When > we are really convinced that there is no other way but the > development of satipatthana,we shall not deviate from the right > Path. Thus, we > should not follow after the past nor desire for the future, we > should be aware of any reality appearing now .' > > My question is how does that fit together.. how do you link A.S.'s > general comment with the 8 steps respectively with the sila, > samadhi, panna training of the Noble Path? -------- N: The eight factors of the eightfold Path develop together, not one after the other in isolation. Right understanding takes the lead. Thus, whatever one is inclined to do, samatha included, be mindful and understand the present reality. I found Jon's answer to you most helpful about siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa: I put this in my files. The sotaapanna does not transgress the five precepts, he does not commit grave kusala kamma. And this is achieved by the development of right understanding of naama and ruupa to such extent that wrong view of self has been eradicated. Wisdom, understanding leads to such an extent of siila and this is wonderful. The anaagaami has developed right understanding of naama and ruupa to such extent that all desire for sense objects have been eradicated. It is natural for him to have a great deal of calm and concentration. No disturbance by sense objects, by visible object, sound, etc. as we have all the time and then start to think about these with infatuation or worry. -------- By the way it strikes me with regard to that article about Kh Sujin, that people can have such misunderstandings about what she explains. She is not at all against samatha, she likes to point out that also in samatha understanding is necessary and just warns against mistaking lobha for samatha. And it is a misunderstanding that she would explain that we do not have to do anything, no cultivation of kusala. Cultivate kusala with less selfishness, not for one's own sake. But read her book about the paramis. Kusala should be cultivated through body, speech and mind, as much as we are able to. No time for laziness, for idle talk or talk about stories of other people, for chit chat. It is very enlightening to meet in person people like Kh Sujin and her friends. Then one can see that they are intent on kusala, on helping all the time. On giving, on metta, on karu.na. "Think more of others, than you will think less of yourself" is one of her many practical pieces of advice. ------ Nina. #104774 From: "drokpa" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:37 pm Subject: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? dhdipa Most Mahayanists say Sravakas or Hinayanists have only the realization of self but not phenomenas. Would any one kindly explain this matter to me please. Is it true? If not, how do the theravadins explain the emptiness of phenomenas (dharmas)??? #104775 From: han tun Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhaniya Sutta (9) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I am glad that you like Sayadaw U Nyanissara's talk on the Dhaniya sutta. There may be other tapes in Burma, but I have only this talk by Sayadaw on the Snp suttas. With metta and respect, Han No, no more ta.nhaa as partner:)- #104776 From: Vince Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? cerovzt@... Hi, drokpa wrote: > Most Mahayanists say Sravakas or Hinayanists have only the > realization of self but not phenomenas. Would any one kindly explain > this matter to me please. Is it true? as I have been many years with Mahayana, just a pair of things: in Mahayana, an Sravaka is who is learning by listening the teachings, and by reflecting and considering it. They don't practice, or better to say, their practice is of that type. Hinayana was a term arising inside the Mahayana to point a lower understanding about the reaching of awakening. Exactly, it means that somebody understand non-self, awakening or sunyata, as related only with his own -self. Therefore, they remain unaware of the consequences for the rest of perceived reality. It is a Hinayana position. The word Hinayana never is applied to the Theravada school in the Mahayana classical texts but to that people following the same Mahayana corpus who still are not able of understand what the Mahayana calls "Great Vehicle". Anatta is also universality in both Mahayana and Theravada. So the people who still use Hinayana to define the Theravada lineage, it is precisely because they don't understand, and themselves are keeping a Hinayana position when thinking that such type of anatta is possible. This article is quite explanatory of several points of this bad use: http://www.lienet.no/hinayan1.htm > If not, how do the theravadins > explain the emptiness of phenomenas (dharmas)??? about this point other people here can explain better. best wishes, Vince. #104777 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:21 pm Subject: Good Gardening! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Some Good Gardening Advice: Yearn not for a body free of disease and suffering, because having pain and becoming sick is an inevitable part of being alive and having a body.. Wish not for a life free of mishaps and obstacles, because without them one tends to become, narrow-minded, neglectful, arrogant and egoistic.. Pray not for a quick shortcut fix regarding spiritual introspect, because without serious effort, one becomes a short-and-shallow surface-glider.. Fear not the haunting disturbance of evils, while accumulating good merit, because without them one's determination does not grow steel strong.. Hope not for easy success in one?s work, because without difficulties and failures, one tends to undervalue others and become overly proud. Build not relationships on selfish gain, because a friendship based on the purpose of gaining profit has lost its genuine good meaning, and function! Look not for a universal agreement regarding one?s "own" personal opinion, because complete adoption to a single rigid view will produce intolerance.. Expect not repayment, appreciation or reward for benevolent services, because calculation and expectation contradicts true altruistic service. Engage not irrationally into profitable attractions, because jumping too quickly into temptation may well blind rational attention & true wisdom. Stir not at being victim of injustice, because keenness to clear reputation belongs to an ego clinging in panic to the imagined idea of my superior self. In brevity: - Consider disease and suffering as medicines to the body and life - Use mishaps as a means of self-liberation - Treat obstacles as enjoyable challenges - Greet haunting bad-lucks as good companions - Consider difficulties as life enjoyments - Thank bad friends as helping you in self-adjustment - View unpleasant dissidents as friendly entertainment - See favours as merely unimportant sandals plentiful to dispose - Regard disinterest in temptations as an honourable achievement - Employ injustice as an entry door to spiritual perfection. - Know that patience, tolerance and endurance is the highest praxis From: MSN group: The Garden of Happiness... Good Mental Gardening creates Ease, Calm and Bliss... <..> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #104778 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? chandrafabian Hi everyone, So...? does the realization of phenomena refer to Hinayana only or to theravada as well? mettacittena, fabian --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > Hi, > > drokpa wrote: > > > Most Mahayanists say Sravakas or Hinayanists have only the > > realization of self but not phenomenas. Would any one kindly explain > > this matter to me please. Is it true? > > as I have been many years with Mahayana, just a pair of things: > > in Mahayana, an Sravaka is who is learning by listening the teachings, > and by reflecting and considering it. They don't practice, or better > to say, their practice is of that type. > > Hinayana was a term arising inside the Mahayana to point a lower > understanding about the reaching of awakening. Exactly, it means > that somebody understand non-self, awakening or sunyata, as related > only with his own -self. Therefore, they remain unaware of the > consequences for the rest of perceived reality. It is a Hinayana > position. > > The word Hinayana never is applied to the Theravada school in the > Mahayana classical texts but to that people following the same > Mahayana corpus who still are not able of understand what the > Mahayana calls "Great Vehicle". > > Anatta is also universality in both Mahayana and Theravada. So the > people who still use Hinayana to define the Theravada lineage, it is > precisely because they don't understand, and themselves are keeping a > Hinayana position when thinking that such type of anatta is possible. > > > This article is quite explanatory of several points of this bad use: > http://www.lienet.no/hinayan1.htm > > > > If not, how do the theravadins > > explain the emptiness of phenomenas (dharmas)??? > > about this point other people here can explain better. > > > > best wishes, > > Vince. > #104779 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Notes about the three rounds, no 3. chandrafabian --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > > Sarah: > < When we listen to the Dhamma and consider what we hear the > intellectual > understanding of realities, that is, the first phase, sacca nana, > gradually develops and then it can condition the arising of > satipatthana. > This means that the second phase, knowledge of the task, kicca nana, > begins to develop. The practice, patipatti, is actually knowledge of the > task that is to be performed, kicca nana. Thus, there are different > levels > of panna: intellectual understanding based on listening to the > Dhamma, and > panna accompanied by sati that is directly aware of the > characteristics of > realities appearing now through one of the six doorways. > > These are the dhammas we studied and considered before, but now they can > gradually be verified and directly understood. Knowing the difference > between the moment there is no sati but only thinking about nama and > rupa, > and the moment there is awareness of one characteristic of nama or > rupa at > a time is the beginning of the development of satipatthana. Gradually we > shall realize nama as nama, and rupa as rupa, we shall realize their > different characteristics. > > When one has reached the second phase, knowledge of the task or the > practice, the first phase, intellectual understanding of the truth, > is not > abandoned but develops further. One understands more deeply what the > four > noble Truths are and one sees more clearly that satipatthana, > awareness of > what appears now is the only way leading to detachment from the idea of > self and to nibbana which is the end of defilements. The clinging to > self > is deeply accumulated and very persistent. When panna develops it sees > even the more subtle clinging to a self or the clinging to sati. A > moment > of right awareness is very short and attachment can arise in alternation > with clinging. If panna is not keen enough, one will deviate from the > right Path. There cannot be immediately clear understanding of > realities, > but we can begin to develop understanding of the realities we used to > take > for people, beings and things. > > Acharn Sujin reminded us that we should not move away from the present > moment and that we should abandon desire for sati. She said that it > seems > that we wish to develop sati, reach the stages of insight and attain > enlightenment, all for our own sake. However, the goal of the > development > of satipatthana should be understanding of the truth of anatta, thus, > the > truth that there is no "me".> > (end quote) > ***** > NIna. > > > Dear Nina, Some people believe we have to develop the understanding by learning or reflecting about Dhamma, while in my knowledge the understanding would be developed by itself if we practice right concentration intensively.. consider all conditions are right... in other words we are not necessarily thinking about Dhamma while practising... what do you think about this? Fabian #104780 From: Lukas Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:11 am Subject: Epilogue to a book, and On Study (Ajah Chah) szmicio Hi Alex, This wise consideration Acharn Chah called internal is conditioned also. When you start to think in a right way. No control, every moment in your life conditioned. Or even read Texts and they remind you about the Path, then this wise internal consideration of eye, nose,...mind arise naturally. But if you start to think now I consider this and that, the eye this is so much more misery. Take a rest. Best wishes Lukas >Here is an interesting way to end a Book of talks by Ven. Ajahn Chah === >…Do you know where it will end? Or will you just keep on learning like >this…? Or is there an end to it…? That’s okay but it’s the external >study, not the internal study. For the internal study you have to study >these eyes, these ears, this nose, this tongue, this body and this mind. >This is the real study. The study of books is just the external study, it>>s really hard to get it finished. #104781 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:55 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Notes about the three rounds, no 3. nilovg Dear Fabian, Op 30-jan-2010, om 7:28 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven: > Some people believe we have to develop the understanding by > learning or reflecting about Dhamma, while in my knowledge the > understanding would be developed by itself if we practice right > concentration intensively.. consider all conditions are right... in > other words we are not necessarily thinking about Dhamma while > practising... what do you think about this? ------- N: First we have to listen to the Dhamma and consider carefully what we learn. Then pariyatti develops more and more, but very gradually. It can be a condition for direct awareness and understanding of any reality appearing now, be it seeing, visible object, thinking, aversion, any reality. No selection. It is right understanding of the level of pariyatti that conditions pa.tipatti, direct awareness, and it is not so that intensive development of concentration could lead to direct understanding. Concentration on what? Concentration is extremely short, and there is no person or self who could develop it. It accompanies right understanding, since it accompanies each moment of citta. It is of different degrees and of different kinds, depending on the citta it accompanies. Direct awareness and understanding is not thinking about realities. But a moment of right understanding, or practice, is very momentary, and in between thinking arises, nobody can control what reality arises and appears. Also thinking can be understood as a conditioned reality. In short, right understanding should be emphasized, not concentration. But concentration accompanies right understanding, because of the appropriate conditions, not because 'we' try to develop it. -------- Nina. #104782 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka nilovg Dear Dieter, When I finished my post to you about the influence on siila by right understanding of the eightfold Path, I looked back at your quoted sutta: Op 29-jan-2010, om 19:56 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > taking the standard of the 8fold Noble Path (N.'s Dict.) > 1. "What now, o monks, is right view (or right understanding)? It > is the understanding of suffering, of the origin of suffering, of > the extinction of suffering, and of the path leading to the > extinction of suffering. > > 2. "What now, o monks, is right thought? It is a mind free from > sensual lust, ill-will and cruelty. > > 3. "What now, o monks, is right speech? Abstaining from lying, tale- > bearing, harsh words, and foolish babble (cf. tiraccha-nakatha-). --------- N: That is exactly the effect of the development of right understanding in daily life. I am so impressed by this sutta, it is the truth. There will be less inclination or no inclination to telling tales about others, to chit-chat, as I mentioned with regard to Kh Sujin and her friends. Their behaviour is such an example for me. I have to learn, I still engage in chit-chat. Those are just good qualities arising because of conditions, they do not belong to a person who has these qualities. So, this is not a question of admiring persons. --------- > > Text: 4. "What now, o monks, is right action? Abstaining from > injuring living beings, from stealing and from unlawful sexual > intercourse (s. ka-mesu miccha-ca-ra). > > 5. "What now, o monks, is right livelihood? If the noble disciple > rejects a wrong living, and gains his living by means of right > livelihood (s. magga, 5). > > 6. "What now, o monks, is right effort? If the disciple rouses his > will to avoid the arising of evil, demeritorious things that have > not yet arisen; ... if he rouses his will to overcome the evil, > demeritorious things that have already arisen; ... if he rouses his > will to produce meritorious things that have not yet arisen; ... if > he rouses his will to maintain the meritorious things that have > already arisen and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to > growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development; he > thus makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives > (s. padha-na). -------- N: Right effort of the eightfold Path accompanies right understanding of naama and ruupa, sammaadi.t.thi. When right mindfulness and right understanding of naama and ruupa arise, it conditions more kusala in life. No person who performs it. All good qualities are devoid of person or self. -------- > > Text: 7. "What now, o monks is right mindfulness? If the disciple > dwells in contemplation of corporeality ... of feeling ... of > mind ... of the mind-objects, ardent, clearly conscious, and > mindful after putting away worldly greed and grief (s. > Satipat.t.ha-na). > > 8. "What now, o monks, is right concentration? If the disciple is > detached from sensual objects, detached from unwholesome things, > and enters into the first absorption ... the second absorption ... > the third absorption ... the fourth absorption" (s. jha-na -------- N: Also right concentration even to the degree of jhaana should be seen as non-self. Otherwise the Eightfold Path is not developed. All wholesome qualities are mentioned in this sutta and they are anattaa. It is not said that everybody has to reach jhaana, it all depends on accumulated inclinations. The aim of the eightfold Path is the eradication of the wrong view of self and of all defilements. First wrong view of self has to be eradicated before other defilements can be eradicated. This sutta is an excellent reminder how right understanding bears on our conduct in daily life. It is amazing what impact it can have. --------- Nina. #104783 From: "drokpa" Date: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:38 pm Subject: Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? dhdipa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > Hi, > > drokpa wrote: > > > Most Mahayanists say Sravakas or Hinayanists have only the > > realization of self but not phenomenas. Would any one kindly explain > > this matter to me please. Is it true? > > as I have been many years with Mahayana, just a pair of things: > > in Mahayana, an Sravaka is who is learning by listening the teachings, > and by reflecting and considering it. They don't practice, or better > to say, their practice is of that type. > > Hinayana was a term arising inside the Mahayana to point a lower > understanding about the reaching of awakening. Exactly, it means > that somebody understand non-self, awakening or sunyata, as related > only with his own -self. Therefore, they remain unaware of the > consequences for the rest of perceived reality. It is a Hinayana > position. > > The word Hinayana never is applied to the Theravada school in the > Mahayana classical texts but to that people following the same > Mahayana corpus who still are not able of understand what the > Mahayana calls "Great Vehicle". > > Anatta is also universality in both Mahayana and Theravada. So the > people who still use Hinayana to define the Theravada lineage, it is > precisely because they don't understand, and themselves are keeping a > Hinayana position when thinking that such type of anatta is possible. > > > This article is quite explanatory of several points of this bad use: > http://www.lienet.no/hinayan1.htm > > > > If not, how do the theravadins > > explain the emptiness of phenomenas (dharmas)??? > > about this point other people here can explain better. > > > > best wishes, > > Vince. > Hi all, Thanks Vince for your kind reply, and sharing you understanding. As I am quite greatly interested in Nagarjuna's Sunyata doctrine, presently, I am living with Mahayana Buddhists, and teachers where while teaching Mahayana they show why Mahayana is greater than Hinayana with respect to greatness of Sunyata doctrine, and they explain that Sravakas and Hinayanists don't have this realization which makes Mahayanists greater, and even with respect to Bodhisattva ideal too... And by Hinayana or sravakayana they mean present Theravadins and early Sarvastivadins whom Nagarjuna was refuting in a way. But if I am not wrong the Theravadins too say all the conditioning phenomenons are impermanent as they are causally conditioned...so I still don't understand why Theravadins don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenons??? As I understood for Theravadins the ultimate dhamma is to see things as they really are just as explained in the Bahiya sutta about seeing, hearing, knowing, ...etc. They too don't hold Dhammas as permanent substances.... But I dare not compare the dhamma theory with them as I fell they hardly have comparative knowledge of various Buddhist tradition, and depend only on what Mahayana suttas say about Hinayanists.... So would anyone good in Both traditions kindly explain me this!!! Thanks all With Metta, Drokpa monk(gypsy monk) #104784 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? upasaka_howard Hi, Mr Monk! :-) In a message dated 1/30/2010 5:57:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, drokpa.monk@... writes: Hi all, Thanks Vince for your kind reply, and sharing you understanding. As I am quite greatly interested in Nagarjuna's Sunyata doctrine, presently, I am living with Mahayana Buddhists, and teachers where while teaching Mahayana they show why Mahayana is greater than Hinayana with respect to greatness of Sunyata doctrine, and they explain that Sravakas and Hinayanists don't have this realization which makes Mahayanists greater, and even with respect to Bodhisattva ideal too... And by Hinayana or sravakayana they mean present Theravadins and early Sarvastivadins whom Nagarjuna was refuting in a way. But if I am not wrong the Theravadins too say all the conditioning phenomenons are impermanent as they are causally conditioned...so I still don't understand why Theravadins don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenons??? As I understood for Theravadins the ultimate dhamma is to see things as they really are just as explained in the Bahiya sutta about seeing, hearing, knowing, ...etc. They too don't hold Dhammas as permanent substances.... But I dare not compare the dhamma theory with them as I fell they hardly have comparative knowledge of various Buddhist tradition, and depend only on what Mahayana suttas say about Hinayanists.... So would anyone good in Both traditions kindly explain me this!!! Thanks all With Metta, Drokpa monk(gypsy monk) ===================================== I would like to mention a few things to you: First of all, please be aware that the terms 'hinayana' and 'hinayanist' are pejorative and extremely insulting. The prefix 'hina' doesn't just mean "small" or "lesser." It really means "worthless" and "grossly inferior." The Wikipedia article on the term states the following: The Dalai Lama, for example, is aware of the disparaging nature of this attack-word, and he does not use the term. Moreover, traditionally Mahayanists who used to use it applied it not to Theravadins but to earlier schools, most particularly to the Sarvastivadins who had a substantialist and oddly eternalist view. Some Tibetan schools, however, do use the term in a relatively innocuous way, considering that every Dhammic tradition includes various stages within it, the hinayana stage being the beginning one. These Tibetan schools do NOT identify any one tradition as "hina." Secondly, neither the Mahayanist school nor the Theravadin school is a narrow one, but is an umbrella tradition including within it a diversity of perspectives. A more important point related to this is that one should properly distinguish between Theravada *per se*, which is most properly the Theravadin commentarial tradition, from the Tipitaka - most especially the two baskets of suttas and vinaya, which are universally considered among "Theravadins" and among many Mahayanists to be the word of the Buddha. If one examines the Pali suttas and compares them with what I consider to be core Mahayana doctrine, namely the middle-way school of the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras and the teachings of Nagarjuna and his students, and the Yogacara works of Vasubandhu and Asanga, it becomes clear that the basis for the essential Mahayana teachings is clearly to be found in the suttas accepted by Theravadins as the word of the Buddha. ALL the core teachings of Madhyamaka are found in the Pali suttas, though not always using identical terminology, and much of Yogacara, an outgrowth, ironically, of Sarvastivadin Abhidhamma and due largely to Vasubandhu, is found there as well. Even "the bodhisattva career," so strongly emphasized in Mahayana, has its basis in Theravada, where the aspirations to Arahantship, to Paccekabuddhahood, and to Buddhahood are all recongnized. You mention the Bahiya Sutta, and quite properly so. Some other Pali suttas that reveal the seeds of the best of Mahayana within the original teachings are the following: the Uraga Sutta, the Phena Sutta, the Kalaka (or Kalakarama) Sutta, the Nalakalapiyo Sutta, and the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, And a point worth making, I believe, is that an advantage to the Pali suttas is that they are universally recognized to provide the direct teaching of the Buddha, whereas there is certainly legitimate question as to the authenticity of the Mahayana sutras, as wonderful as many of them are, with respect to the claim of their constituting the direct word of the Tathagatha. With metta, Howard The Aggregates are Void /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #104785 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? nilovg Hi Howard, thanks for your interesting post on the subject. I have one point, see below. Op 30-jan-2010, om 15:41 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > A more important point related to this is that one should > properly distinguish between Theravada *per se*, which is most > properly the > Theravadin commentarial tradition, from the Tipitaka - most > especially the > two baskets of suttas and vinaya, which are universally considered > among > "Theravadins" and among many Mahayanists to be the word of the Buddha. ------ N: Addition: and the Abhidhamma. There is the Tipi.taka, three Baskets, or three parts. But I do not want to start a long debate as we have had many, many times. See archives. Nina. #104786 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/30/2010 9:50:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, thanks for your interesting post on the subject. I have one point, see below. Op 30-jan-2010, om 15:41 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > A more important point related to this is that one should > properly distinguish between Theravada *per se*, which is most > properly the > Theravadin commentarial tradition, from the Tipitaka - most > especially the > two baskets of suttas and vinaya, which are universally considered > among > "Theravadins" and among many Mahayanists to be the word of the Buddha. ------ N: Addition: and the Abhidhamma. There is the Tipi.taka, three Baskets, or three parts. But I do not want to start a long debate as we have had many, many times. See archives. Nina. =================================== I had written , only because there isn't universal agreement that the Abhidhamma Pitaka is the direct word of the Buddha. That third basket of the Tipitaka is considered by many to be a derivative later addition, but, *without question*, that basket is an integral, even definitive, part of Theravadin canon. Theravada consists of the Tipitaka, all three baskets, and commentaries. Of these, there is universal consensus that sutta-vinaya comes directly from the Buddha, and of course, the commentaries do not. There is disagreement, however, even among Theravadins, with regard to the origin of very highly esteemed Abhidhamma Pitaka. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104787 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? nilovg Hi Howard, OK, I got what you meant. It depends what one means by Theravadins. Also this seems to be disputed, I noticed the other day at another list. Nina. Op 30-jan-2010, om 16:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > There is disagreement, > however, even among Theravadins, with regard to the origin of very > highly > esteemed Abhidhamma Pitaka. #104788 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:43 am Subject: Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? szmicio Hi drokpa, In my opinion sravaka term refers to very specific kind of development, the kind of listening and considering Dhamma that leads to realization of Nibbana. The mahayanists could realy misunderstood theravadins, called them hinayanists. because the savaka way of development seems very natural and high. Most Mahayanist's ideas refering to Theravada are not exactly true. Regarding to dharmas as seen in Theravada they are not real in the sense that they constitute the world. they are real in the sense that they can be known. This is very important. concepts cannot be known. the dhammas can. so this is why Buddha taught them. Also each dhamma is empty. sabbe dhamma anatta. and anatta means emptiness. Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "drokpa" wrote: > > Most Mahayanists say Sravakas or Hinayanists have only the realization of self but not phenomenas. Would any one kindly explain this matter to me please. Is it true? If not, how do the theravadins explain the emptiness of phenomenas (dharmas)??? > #104789 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? szmicio Hi Howard, > I would like to mention a few things to you: > First of all, please be aware that the terms 'hinayana' and > 'hinayanist' are pejorative and extremely insulting. The prefix 'hina' doesn't just > mean "small" or "lesser." It really means "worthless" and "grossly > inferior." The Wikipedia article on the term states the following: na is formed of hi-na (???): "low", "inferior", "deficient", "defective", > and ya-na (???): "vehicle", where "vehicle" means "a way of going to > enlightenment". L: Thanks for mention this is a pejorative term. I always get anger when people say 'hinayana'. I think they should not use this word anymore. In reality it deals wit a lot of theravada ideas, and it mentions it in a very non-theravadan way. Best wishes Lukas #104790 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? szmicio Dear Howard, >I had written which are universally considered > among "Theravadins" and among many Mahayanists to be the word of the > Buddha.>, only because there isn't universal agreement that the Abhidhamma > Pitaka is the direct word of the Buddha. L: In theravada 3 baskets are holy words of the Buddha. Tradition is very clear of this. I dont know were you get your info? Best wishes Lukas #104791 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:52 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Hi Jon, you wrote ' I agree that the sutta is directed to the uninstructed worldling. However, I think the descriptions of body and mind given in the sutta are of general application, i.e., are describing the body and mind of beings in general and not just the uninstructed worldling. D: Jon, let us read it once more: "It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another."The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:"'When this is, that is."'From the arising of this comes the arising of that snip The translator inserted ' however' to highlight the change to the instructed disciple of the noble ones, who ( 'don't allow' the monkey - mind such ignorant jumping anymore by following/having followed the instructions of the samadhi part training , right effort for example and so ) are able to attends carefully & appropriately right there ...(sati) If the monkey mind nature would still prevail with the instructed , then all what has been said about mind development would be rather fruitless, wouldn't it? Jon: According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, the point of the simile is that "the mind is always dependent on an object". He points out that "neither the sutta nor the commentary interprets the monkey simile here as saying that the untrained mind is as restless as a monkey". D: well , it may be the case that the Venerable may consider the different interpretation.. In respect to DO , the simile points to the ignorant process of conditioning ..this blind restlessness of the uninstructed /untrained mind. Yes the object (towards driven by tanha ) is important , but understanding of the process is the core for leading to dispassion. In my understanding it is a splendid simile for the day- by- day mind of the run-of-the-mill person J: The difference between the uninstructed worldling and the instructed noble disciple is not in the nature of the body or the mind as described but in how the body and mind are clung to. This difference is explained in the sutta as follows: - while the uninstructed worldling may readily be able to develop dispassion towards the body (i.e., to not take the body for self), he is unable to do the same with regards to the mind; D: In my understanding it is pointed out that the nature of the body lasts only for one life , but the mind is caught in samsara. Hence liberation of the body is well possible by the uninstructed (the many yogis in India come into my mind) but for the mind it is not .. " Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it." Unlike this ' this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more" . Jon : - the instructed noble disciple, however, by attending closely to dependent origination, is able develop dispassion towards all 5 khandhas (i.e., both the body and the mind). D: yes Jon: So getting back to the monkey simile, here the Buddha is speaking as if it would make more sense for the uninstructed worldling to take the body for self rather than the mind, because of the obvious incessant change of the mind in contrast to the apparent slowness of change of the body. D: because the self delusion is on principle mental. with Metta Dieter #104792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:14 am Subject: [dsg] Notes about the three rounds, no 4. nilovg Dear Lukas, I continue with the notes on the three rounds but some of them may be repetitious. But I shall post them all the same. N: When sacca ??na gradually develops it can condition the arising of satipatt?na, and then kicca ??na, knowledge of the task, begins to develop. When we are convinced that there is no other way leading to enlightenment but the development of satipatth?na, we shall not deviate from the right Path. The right Path is the fourth noble Truth and this lead to the cessation of dukkha, nibb?na, which is the third noble Truth. Acharn Sujin stressed the importance of the three phases because they make it apparent that sati-sampaja??a can only arise when there is a firm foundation knowledge of the objects of satipatth?na and the way of its development. It reminds us that pa??? is gradually developed from life to life. The level of intellectual understanding, pariyatti, conditions awareness and understanding of the characteristics of nama and rupa that appear now. This is the beginning of patipatti, the level of practice and this will eventually lead to the realization of the truth, pativedha. Very gradually n?ma can be known as n?ma and r?pa as r?pa, and stages of insight can arise, but we do not know when they will arise. It takes many lives, but we should not be impatient. --------- Nina. #104793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:20 am Subject: [dsg] Three rounds, Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 9. nilovg Dear Lukas and friends, Text: At that moment, at that instant, at that second, the shout rose up as far as the Brahma worlds. And this ten thousandfold world trembled, quaked, and shook violently. And an unlimited noble radiance appeared in the world surpassing the divine majesty of the devas. Then the Blessed One uttered a paean of joy - "Konda~n~na indeed has understood! Konda~n~na indeed has understood! In this way "Konda~n~na- who-has-understood" became the name of the venerable Konda~n~na. -------- Pali: Itiiha tena kha.nena, tena layena, tena muhuttena yaava Brahmalokaa saddo abbhuggacchi. Aya~nca dasasahassi lokadhaatu sa"nkampi sampakampi sampavedhi. Appamaa.no ca u.laaro obhaaso loke paaturahosi atikkamma devaana.m devaanubhaava.m. Atha kho Bhagavaa udaana.m udaanesi - "A~n~naasi vata, bho Ko.n.da~n~no, a~n~naasi vata, bho Ko.n.da~n~no"ti! Iti h'ida.m aayasmato Ko.n.da~n~nassa 'A~n~naasi-Ko.n.da~n~no' tv'eva naama.m ahosii'ti. ---------- Text commentary: In this connection it is said that when the Wheel of dhamma was set in motion by the Blessed One, the Earth Devas exulted. Here Earth refers to the devas dwelling on the earth. As to the expression, they exulted (uttered a sound), they gave expression to their appreciation (sadhukaara.m) all at once (at one stroke, ekappahaarena). They exulted, saying, ? The unsurpassed Wheel of Dhamma has been set in motion by the Blessed One...?. As to the radiance, obhaaso, this is the radiance of omniscience. This brilliance surpasses the divine power of the devas. As to the words "Konda~n~na indeed has understood, the exultation of this joyful utterance (udaana) resounded loudly and permeated the tenthousand worldsystems (lokadhaatu) and settled. ------ The subcommentary explains as to obhaaso, radiance, that this is materiality originated from the element of heat (utu), conditioned by citta by the power of his omniscience. It also mentions that enthusiasm (piiti) and happy feeling (somanassa) arose also at the occasion of this joyful utterance (udaana). ----------- Commentary text: Ta.m sandhaaya pavattite ca pana bhagavataa dhammacakke bhummaa devaa saddamanussaavesuntiaadi vutta.m. Tattha bhummaati bhuuma.t.thakadevataa. Saddamanussaavesunti ekappahaareneva saadhukaara.m datvaa. "Eta.m bhagavataa"tiaadiini vadantaa anusaavayi.msu. Obhaasoti sabba~n~nuta~n~naa.nobhaaso. So hi tadaa devaana.m devaanubhaava.m atikkamitvaa virocittha. A~n~naasi vata, bho, ko.n.da~n~noti imassapi udaanassa udaahaaranigghoso dasasahassilokadhaatu.m pharitvaa a.t.thaasi. ----------------------------- N: Konda~n~na who attained the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the sotaapanna, together with the eighteen crores of brahmas, was the first who clearly understood the Dhamma. He was named A~n~naa-Konda~n~na, Konda~n~na who has understood. While he listened to the Buddha he developed clear understanding of all mental phenomena (naama) and physical phenomena (ruupa) that appeared at those moments. He realized their arising and falling away, their nature of dukkha. At the moment of enlightenment the magga-citta arises that directly experiences nibbaana and eradicates defilements in accordance with the stage of enlightenment that is attained. At the stage of the sotaapanna wrong view and doubt about realities is eradicated. But the sotaapanna still has desire, aversion and other defilements. Only at the fourth and final stage, the stage of the arahat, all defilements are eradicated. The sotaapanna is sure to reach final enlightenment and he does not have to be reborn more than seven times. But as to A~n~naa- Konda~n~na, after five days he attained final enlightenment, the stage of the arahat, when the Buddha preached the ?Anatta lakkha.na sutta?. He reached final liberation from the aeons of wandering in samsara. (the end) --------------- Nina. #104794 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions, was: emptiness of dhammas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 28-jan-2010, om 23:14 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Do you think the pannaa which > arises in samatha can be a situation more frequent for the people > cultivating jhana seated in the floor, etc.?. ------ N: Hard to answer this, individuals are not the same. It depends how skillful they are. ---------- > > V: As still I don't know enough Abhidhamma and also according Sujin, > I dont' have clear if panna arising in vipassana it's a more > comfortable (or perhaps frequent) situation in the practice than > arising in samatha. > It's so? --------- N: We cannot compare the pa~n~naa of the level of samatha and the pa~n~naa of vipassanaa. In samatha defilements are temporarily subdued and the development of vipassanaa leads to the eradication of defilements. More frequent, more comfortable? We cannot tell. Someone may have a lort of discomfort, pain, sickness, even near death, but he may still be able to develop awareness of naama and ruupa. -------- Nina. #104795 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:42 am Subject: Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote : When I finished my post to you about the influence on siila by right understanding of the eightfold Path, I looked back at your quoted sutta: D: I am glad you did , Nina ;-) N: Op 29-jan-2010, om 19:56 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > taking the standard of the 8fold Noble Path (N.'s Dict.)> 1. "What now, o monks, is right view (or right understanding)? It > is the understanding of suffering, of the origin of suffering, of > the extinction of suffering, and of the path leading to the > extinction of suffering.> > 2. "What now, o monks, is right thought? It is a mind free from > sensual lust, ill-will and cruelty.> > 3. "What now, o monks, is right speech? Abstaining from lying, tale- > bearing, harsh words, and foolish babble (cf. tiraccha-nakatha-). --------- N: That is exactly the effect of the development of right understanding in daily life. I am so impressed by this sutta, it is the truth. There will be less inclination or no inclination to telling tales about others, to chit-chat, as I mentioned with regard to Kh Sujin and her friends. Their behaviour is such an example for me. I have to learn, I still engage in chit-chat. Those are just good qualities arising because of conditions, they do not belong to a person who has these qualities. So, this is not a question of admiring persons. --------- > > Text: 4. "What now, o monks, is right action? Abstaining from > injuring living beings, from stealing and from unlawful sexual > intercourse (s. ka-mesu miccha-ca-ra). D: you will know the correspondence (of 2-4) , N.' s Dict.: kamma-patha: 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'. II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A. X, 28, 176; M. 9; they are explained in detail in M. 114, and in Com. to M. 9 (R. Und., p. 14), At.t.hasa-lini- Tr. I, 126ff. unquote 5. "What now, o monks, is right livelihood? If the noble disciple > rejects a wrong living, and gains his living by means of right > livelihood (s. magga, 5). D: 3 - 5 presenting the sila part of the Noble Path training 6. "What now, o monks, is right effort? If the disciple rouses his > will to avoid the arising of evil, demeritorious things that have > not yet arisen; ... if he rouses his will to overcome the evil, > demeritorious things that have already arisen; ... if he rouses his > will to produce meritorious things that have not yet arisen; ... if > he rouses his will to maintain the meritorious things that have > already arisen and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to > growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development; he > thus makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives > (s. padha-na). -------- N: Right effort of the eightfold Path accompanies right understanding of naama and ruupa, sammaadi.t.thi. When right mindfulness and right understanding of naama and ruupa arise, it conditions more kusala in life. No person who performs it. All good qualities are devoid of person or self. D: well , Nina, we probably agree that there is no person or self in a deeper sense but a process of conditioning, but in communciation we may use conventional terms... What is requested here that the student applies that in his training (rouses his will) to avoid the arising of the unwholesome ,.taking care for the wholesome to develop ..etc.. (pls compare with kamma patha ) > > Text: 7. "What now, o monks is right mindfulness? If the disciple > dwells in contemplation of corporeality ... of feeling ... of > mind ... of the mind-objects, ardent, clearly conscious, and > mindful after putting away worldly greed and grief (s. > Satipat.t.ha-na). > > 8. "What now, o monks, is right concentration? If the disciple is > detached from sensual objects, detached from unwholesome things, > and enters into the first absorption ... the second absorption ... > the third absorption ... the fourth absorption" (s. jha-na -------- N: Also right concentration even to the degree of jhaana should be seen as non-self. Otherwise the Eightfold Path is not developed. All wholesome qualities are mentioned in this sutta and they are anattaa. It is not said that everybody has to reach jhaana, it all depends on accumulated inclinations.The aim of the eightfold Path is the eradication of the wrong view of self and of all defilements. First wrong view of self has to be eradicated before other defilements can be eradicated. This sutta is an excellent reminder how right understanding bears on our conduct in daily life. It is amazing what impact it can have. --------- D: I would like to come back on that and now instead illustrate 6,7,8 - the samadhi part of the path training with a quote Bhikkhu Bodhi used in his introduction to Right Effort ( see: http://www.vipassana.com/resources/8fp5.php ) 'The commentators illustrate the interdependence of the three factors within the concentration group with a simple simile. Three boys go to a park to play. While walking along they see a tree with flowering tops and decide they want to gather the flowers. But the flowers are beyond the reach even of the tallest boy. Then one friend bends down and offers his back. The tall boy climbs up, but still hesitates to reach for the flowers from fear of falling. So the third boy comes over and offers his shoulder for support. The first boy, standing on the back of the second boy, then leans on the shoulder of the third boy, reaches up, and gathers the flowers.[1] In this simile the tall boy who picks the flowers represents concentration with its function of unifying the mind. But to unify the mind concentration needs support: the energy provided by right effort, which is like the boy who offers his back. It also requires the stabilizing awareness provided by mindfulness, which is like the boy who offers his shoulder. When right concentration receives this support, then empowered by right effort and balanced by right mindfulness it can draw in the scattered strands of thought and fix the mind firmly on its object.' with Metta Dieter #104796 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 1/30/2010 1:33:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Howard, >I had written which are universally considered > among "Theravadins" and among many Mahayanists to be the word of the > Buddha.>, only because there isn't universal agreement that the Abhidhamma > Pitaka is the direct word of the Buddha. L: In theravada 3 baskets are holy words of the Buddha. Tradition is very clear of this. I dont know were you get your info? ------------------------------------------------------ What I said was that there is not general agreement that the Abhidhamma Pitaka is the direct word of the Buddha. That is true. Each of the early schools had what was called an "abhidhamma," and these were similar to each other in flavor but differed considerably among themselves in content, and all differed radically in style from the Sutta Pitaka. Most scholars and historians seem to believe that the Theravadin Abhidhamma Pitaka was a later addition to the canon that served to summarize the teachings largely in the form of lists and tables that enabled looking at the Dhamma from many angles and nicely balancing the analytic and synthetic approaches. Theravadin legend, though, considers the content that went into that basket as having been taught by the Buddha to his mother and many devas in the Tavatimsa Heaven, and to Sariputta upon his return to this realm. Each of us has the ability to choose for ourself what to believe as to the origins of the Theravadin Abhidhamma. By analogy, and as an aside, Mahayana considers the Mahayana sutras to be the word of the Buddha, and it has its own legend, quite implausible to me, BTW, with regard to their origin. Some Mahayanists such as Ven Thich Nhat Hanh, reject that legend and take only the Pali suttas as Buddha word. In any case, regardless of your belief or mine with regard to the origin of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, the facts are the facts, and we simply do not know what those facts are. ----------------------------------------------------- Best wishes Lukas ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #104797 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? szmicio Hi Howard, > What I said was that there is not general agreement that the > Abhidhamma Pitaka is the direct word of the Buddha. That is true. > Each of the early schools had what was called an "abhidhamma," and > these were similar to each other in flavor but differed considerably among > themselves in content, and all differed radically in style from the Sutta > Pitaka. Most scholars and historians seem to believe that the Theravadin > Abhidhamma Pitaka was a later addition to the canon that served to summarize the > teachings largely in the form of lists and tables that enabled looking at > the Dhamma from many angles and nicely balancing the analytic and synthetic > approaches. Theravadin legend, though, considers the content that went into > that basket as having been taught by the Buddha to his mother and many > devas in the Tavatimsa Heaven, and to Sariputta upon his return to this realm. > Each of us has the ability to choose for ourself what to believe as to the origins of the Theravadin Abhidhamma. L: Yes, we can choose. But it doesnt change fact that Abhidhamma is considered next to Vinaya, and Sutta, that was taught by Buddha. I am talking about facts and tradition. Not about what different people think of it. Best wishes Lukas #104798 From: "drokpa" Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? dhdipa Dear L, and all, sometimes tradition can really be not 100% accurate in what they say. Just like Mahayana tradition may say their sutras as 100% taught by the Buddha himself. and even Theravadins may claim all the teachings in the three canon are Buddha's original teachings... But in the early historical records of first Buddhist council show that only Dhamma and Vinaya were recited by Ananda and Upali respectively. Nothing mentioned about Abhidhamma. Therefore Buddhist academics and historians says that Abhidhamma is not exactly from the blue but development of the sutta pitaka itself where everything is arranged systematically in order to preserve the purity of the teachings in their original form. Because as suttas contain so much of social, political related things, examples, and similes anybody can interpret them in anyway which would give rise distortion...so abhidharmikas decided to rearrange the sutta pitaka in a more systematic and technical manner.... With Metta, Droka monk (gypsy monk) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > >I had written > which are universally considered > > among "Theravadins" and among many Mahayanists to be the word of the > > Buddha.>, only because there isn't universal agreement that the Abhidhamma > > Pitaka is the direct word of the Buddha. > > L: In theravada 3 baskets are holy words of the Buddha. Tradition is very clear of this. > I dont know were you get your info? > > Best wishes > Lukas > #104799 From: "drokpa" Date: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:26 am Subject: Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? dhdipa Thanks Lukas, Howard and all, Well Howard I do know what 'Hina' means. And eventhough I am not that concern about so called this yana and that yana, I was ordained in Theravada tradition. But whenever Tibetan monks see me they whisper each other - there goes a 'hinayana monk'. So what keep my thoughts bothering is - were early Mahayanists really used the term 'Hinayana' in the way it is used today??? Even in Kenpo's (Tibetan monastic teachers or monks) Bodhicarya-avatara class he says Hinayanists don't have the realization of Phenomenons, Sravakas only refrain from doing wrong but don't bother really to help others claiming Mahayana as greater than sravakayana or rather may be Hinayana (I wander if they even know how and in what context the word even came into being), and so on.... With Metta, Drokpa (gypsy) monk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Hi drokpa, > In my opinion sravaka term refers to very specific kind of development, the kind of listening and considering Dhamma that leads to realization of Nibbana. > The mahayanists could realy misunderstood theravadins, called them hinayanists. because the savaka way of development seems very natural and high. > Most Mahayanist's ideas refering to Theravada are not exactly true. > > Regarding to dharmas as seen in Theravada they are not real in the sense that they constitute the world. they are real in the sense that they can be known. This is very important. concepts cannot be known. the dhammas can. so this is why Buddha taught them. > > Also each dhamma is empty. sabbe dhamma anatta. and anatta means emptiness. > > Best wishes > Lukas > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "drokpa" wrote: > > > > Most Mahayanists say Sravakas or Hinayanists have only the realization of self but not phenomenas. Would any one kindly explain this matter to me please. Is it true? If not, how do the theravadins explain the emptiness of phenomenas (dharmas)??? > > >