#107200 From: Ken O Date: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >What I've meant to say is that cetana does the same specific function for every citta that arises in that particular jhana. It is like an arrow that was shot. It flies into one direction. In same way, cetana focuses on performing only the functions relevant to that jhana, and it doesn't alter its course. > >In that way it is suspended from focusing on many different things that happen in a restless mind. IMHO. KO:? No, this also again lack understanding of dhammas.? the only suspended at the 1st jhanas is vitakka in the fivefold classification of jhana, it is vitakka that brings the object to the mind and not cetana that is suspended.?? Also the other jhanas factors also flies into one direction, why?they are not suspended, so the logic is not correct.? Again dont listen to people just because they say so or I say so, look at the text??for the verification.?? thanks Ken O #107201 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The role of samatha for insight farrellkevin80 Dear Ken, Even a thief can become pure through wisdom alone. Of course all types of kusala benefit the path though, no doubt about it. "One day, Sumana, a flower seller offered food to the Sanghas led by the Buddha after she had obtained permission from the said three millionaires. On that very day, a maid, servant of the Queen Samavati by the name of Khujjuttara went out to buy flowers as usual. Sumana, the flower seller told Khujjuttara: "Today I've fervently requested the Enlightened One to accept and take the offer of food at my residence. I invite you also to join me to hear the Buddha's teaching after the meal is over. You may buy the flowers and take them away only after listening to the Buddha's sermon." Khujjttara accepted the invitation and then listened to the Anumodana Dhamma attentively along with Sumana. In the course of the sermon. Khujjuttara through contemplation and noting on what had been heard, achieved sotapatti-magga-phala, and became a Sotapanna. It was stated that usually Khujjuttara bought only four kyats worth of flowers out of eight kyats given for her from the King's coffers, keeping four kyats for her own personal use. On that particular day since she had become a Sotapanna,' she had absolutely no intention to steal other people's property. She therefore bought eight kyats worth of flowers. Seeing the flowers much more than that had been usually found, Samavatl inquired, "O, Sister! Did the King give you double the amount of money that was ordinarily given to purchase the flowers particularly today?" To this query, Khujjuttara replied, "No, Madam, certainly not." "Why then there are flowers about twice as many as were usually the Case?" asked the Queen. Khujjuttara admitted: "Usually on previous occasions, I pocketed four kyats, and only bought four kyats worth of flowers. Today, I had bought flowers to the full value of all eight kyats." This was a candid reply by abstaining herself from telling lies or falsehood. This manner of reply deserves paying attention. Simply because, in those ancient times, a Queen had full and absolute powers to the extent of imposing a capital punishment on any person whom she disliked or considered guilty. The Queen could possibly give orders to execute Khujjuttara for having committed theft of the money paid to buy flowers, or rather, for the offence of is appropriation. However, Khujjuttara had spoken the truth and nothing but the truth without fear of the consequences that might befall her. This noble and honest attitude in telling the truth is the courageous attribute of sotapattimagga, the Special Dhamma. Further interrogations made as to why she did not slice off half the amount of money given to her on that day, Khujjuttara replied that it as because she had gained the Special Dhamma, the wakening of the higher consciousness of the Dhamma" -- Mahasi Sayadaw, http://www.buddhanet.net/brahmaviharas/bvd057.htm #107202 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/26/2010 12:08:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard >============ ========= ========= ===== >Just a thought: Why should we think so much about "exists" or "doesn't >exist," and so much about modes of existing, when freedom lies in >relinquishing, in unclasping the grasping fist, in letting go and letting be, and >letting become? Nothing is actually graspable, nothing holds still for a >nonexistent "I" to grab onto. As the great sage, John Lennon, said, "Let it >be!" ;-) KO: To me it is good to explain this so one will not fall into believing because of conditionality nothing really exist, that is to me not a correct view. Honestly understand conditionality or dhamma exist or characteristics are real do not imply about grasping, on the other hand it helps to develop understanding it is just dhamma at work, the cause or the condition and lead to develop the understanding of anatta of dhammas. With this understanding or correct view, then one will let go or detach as one realise there is no self at all in dhamma even aksuala dhammas are also anatta. Kind regards Ken O ===================================== Thanks for the reply. I also consider "Nothing exists" to be false. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #107203 From: "Rob" Date: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > Hi Kevin, Howard, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > > > Dear Howard, > > > > You said: > > > > "As the great sage, John Lennon, said, "Let it be" > > > > Kevin: John Lennon is not Buddha. > > > > Kevin > > True, and it also seems well-documented that Paul McCartney wrote that particular song: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_It_Be_%28song%29 > > Mike > The Dhamma according to Jagger & Richards: "I Can't Get no Satisfaction" All compounded existence is Dukkha. The distortion of mistaking dukkha for sukkha. According to Dylan: "You know there is something happening here, but you don't know what it is, do you?" Moha. According to Johnny Lee: "Looking for Love in All the Wrong Places." The distortion of mistaking asuhha for subha {sobhana?} robin #107204 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:11 pm Subject: 4 types of concentration? truth_aerator Dear Rob2K, Kevin, KenO, all, Some quote AN 4.41 sutta as support that Jhana is not needed. However if you look at the sutta SN 22.101 it will tell you that you do need to develop 4 Jhanas (as Samma-Samadhi) with other important factors of the N8P. What I think AN4.41 refutes is simple development of Jhana for the Bliss only. That doesn't lead to awakening. But Jhana as part of ENTIRE N8P does lead to 4th Concentration found in AN4.41 and Awakening. In the Susima Sutta, the Arhats never denied 4 form Jhanas. They affirmed it by claiming to be Panna-Vimutta, which does require at least 1st Jhana. Venerable BB did provide commentary on Susima sutta and has refuted it. Ven. BB translation & comment: While SA seems to be saying that those bhikkhus did not have any jhanas, in the sutta itself Susima's questions establish only that they lacked the abhinna and aruppa; nothing is said about whether or not they had achieve the four jhanas. It is even possible that nijjhanaka should be understood, not as the deprivative "with out jhana," but as derived from nijjhana, pondering, hence "ponderers." ================== ================== "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & no w[alex: Jhana]. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. ... "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html And how does one develop the 4th type of concentation above? At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "I tell you, monks: It is for one who knows & sees that there is the ending of the effluents. For one who knows what & sees what is there the ending of the effluents? 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its passing away.' It is for one who knows & sees in this way that there is the ending of the effluents. "Even though this wish may occur to a monk who dwells without devoting himself to development ? 'O that my mind might be released from effluents through lack of clinging!' ? still his mind is not released from the effluents through lack of clinging. Why is that? From lack of developing, it should be said. Lack of developing what? The four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.101.than.html [Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel... "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment without a sequel." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html So that insight concentration does require Samma-Samadhi (4 Jhanas) with other factors of the N8P and factors of Awakening. With metta, Alex #107205 From: "Rick" Date: Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:48 pm Subject: Hello rwbrown65 Just wanted to say a "hello". Have been interested in Buddhism via member of Theosophical Society. Further refinement from recommendation to read The Dhammapada (Eknath Easwaran translation) Rick #107206 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:30 pm Subject: A Bag of Bones! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Any body is a Dying Bag of Bones! All formations, all constructions, mental as physical, are truly transient... It is their nature to arise and cease right there, where they arised... Having arisen these captivating discrete mental states instantly pass away! The calming, stilling & ceasing of these momentary appearances is happiness. Therefore: Even in the present every being dies millions of times per second! So also will they die in any possible future. So have they always died... In the same way then: I shall surely die! There is no doubt in me about this. Uncertain is life, but certain is death. I shall surely die. Death will be the termination of my life. Life is very insecure, but death is sure, death is sure! Not long, alas! and this my beloved puppet-like body will lie upon the earth! Rejected, void of consciousness, disgusting, and as useless as a rotten log... This very body, from the soles of the feet up to the crown of the head, is a just a bag of bones surrounded by skin, full of various mean impurities: Hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, bowel, intestines, slime, excrement, brain, bile, lymph, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, tallow, spit, snot, joint-fluid, and foul urine... Just a bag of bones, flesh and skin ? skin, flesh and bones... A rotten log... Comments: Keeping this precious and very realistic imagery in mind, will then gradually reduce and weaken these violent lusts, voracious greeds and uncontrollable wanton desires, that attract beings into self-destructive forms of suffering such as: Porno-mania, paedophilia, HIV-transmitting sexuality, over-eating, abuse of drugs, alcohol, and pills, all addictions to the manifold and diverse forms, feelings, perceptions, mental constructions and variants of (doped) consciousness... All this - though fascinating - remains just an ensnaring and enthralling Suffering (Dukkha ), disguised as pleasure and satisfaction.... <...> JUST A FORM OF FRAME This body is always worn out, a fragile form, a nest of disease, a rotting mass of deception, since its life surely and always ends in Decay and Death ... Dhammapada Background Story 148 A BAG OF BONES Like withered leaves scattered by the autumn wind are these pale and whitened bones. What happiness can there ever be in them? Dhammapada Background Story 149 MY PRECIOUS AND ADORED BODY! It is a bag held up by bones, plastered with skin, full of blood and flesh. In it lives only ageing, sickness, death, pride and petty self-deceit... Dhammapada Background Story 150 Source: BPS Wheel no 54 (Edited Excerpt): The Mirror of the Dhamma. A Manual of Buddhist Devotional Texts. By Narada Thera and Bhikkhu Kassapa. Revised By Bhikkhu Khantipalo: http://www.bps.lk/wh054-u.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #107207 From: "Rob" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Do you want to listen to B Bodhi or to the? Arahants that?are in the 3rd council that endorse Abhidhamma.? Likewise for all the teachers in modern times, do you prefer to listen to them or the Arahants,.? Think about it > > > kind regards > Ken O > Ken O, That is a bit like asking whether I prefer Chicago or Paris, I have never been to Paris, so I have no basis to compare. I can take Chicago in small doses, bur prefer my back road village by a river. I do not know enough about Theravada Abhidhamma to even begin forming an opinion. Now, some things I have read here; which seem to rely on Theravada Abhidhamma for authority, I do not agree with at this time. Of course, I may have missed the point. Another thing, I have nothing against those with whom I disagree. I do agree with what Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote about about Parikamma / Upacara / Appana and Khanika Samadhi. I think one can suspend hindrances and direct the flow of thoughts. Nina just posted about suspending the hindrances. I do not think the scattered attention of an untrained mind, one that jumps randomly from one object to another, is khanika sanadhi. I think it is khanika, but not not samadhi. A child randomly pounding on piano keys is not the same as Anna Fedorova playing Chopin's Polonaise. I do not think that directing or controlling one's mind somehow infers an attachment to a perpetual abiding self. I do suspect there is a trans-personal subjective aspect of being; but that is another matter. robin #107208 From: "Mike" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight mikenz66 Ken, etc, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > KO: Do you want to listen to B Bodhi or to the? Arahants that?are in the 3rd council that endorse Abhidhamma.? Likewise for all the teachers in modern times, do you prefer to listen to them or the Arahants,.? Think about it Mike: I would obviously prefer to be taught directly by the Arahants, or, even better, the Buddha. Since I don't have that luxury, I see it as a matter of figuring out what exactly what the Buddha and the Arahants actually meant. Querying opinions expressed by people on this forum is not necessarily the same as disagreeing with the Arahants. Mike #107209 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:06 am Subject: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! truth_aerator Hello all, "Meditation is the way to achieve letting go. In meditation one lets go of the complex world outside in order to reach the serene world inside. In all types of mysticism, in many traditions, this is known as the path to the pure and powerful mind. The experience of this pure mind, released from the world, is very wonderful and blissful. Often with meditation, there will be some hard work at the beginning, but be willing to bear that hard work knowing that it will lead you to experience some very beautiful and meaningful states. They will be well worth the effort! It is a law of nature that without effort one does not make progress. Whether one is a layperson or a monk, without effort one gets nowhere, in meditation or in anything. Effort alone, though, is not sufficient. The effort needs to be skilful. This means directing your energy just at the right places and sustaining it there until its task is completed. Skilful effort neither hinders nor disturbs you, instead it produces the beautiful peace of deep meditation. In order to know where your effort should be directed, you must have a clear understanding of the goal of meditation. The goal of this meditation is the beautiful silence, stillness and clarity of mind. If you can understand that goal then the place to apply your effort, the means to achieve the goal become very clear. The effort is directed to letting go, to developing a mind that inclines to abandoning. One of the many simple but profound statements of the Lord Buddha is that "a meditator whose mind inclines to abandoning, easily achieves Samādhi". Such a meditator gains these states of inner bliss almost automatically. What the Lord Buddha was saying was that the major cause for attaining deep meditation, for reaching these powerful states, is the willingness to abandon, to let go and to renounce. During meditation, we are not going to develop a mind which accumulates and holds on to things, but instead we develop a mind which is willing to let go of things, to let go of burdens. Outside of meditation we have to carry the burden of our many duties, like so many heavy suitcases, but within the period of meditation so much baggage is unnecessary. So, in meditation, see much baggage you can unload. Think of these things as burdens, heavy weights pressing upon you. Then you have the right attitude for letting go of these things, abandoning them freely without looking back. This effort, this attitude, this movement of mind that inclines to giving up, is what will lead you into deep meditation. Even during the beginning stages of this meditation, see if you can generate the energy of renunciation, the willingness to give things away, and little by little the letting go will occur. As you give things away in your mind you will feel much lighter, unburdened and free. In the way of meditation, this abandoning of things occurs in stages, step by step." http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed035.htm With metta, Alex #107210 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ptaus1 Hi KenO, Thanks for your reply. You make some interesting points. Best wishes pt > KO: Paul believe in existence is an extreme point of view which happens to many practitioners and most of them follow the Mahayana path of such nature. IMHO their view, since everything is anicca, anatta and dukkha, green should not exist at all since it is impermanent. this line of thought is basically a wrong view towards annihilistic view, nothing exist. However. they do always said annicca but they forget impermanence exist, if it does not exist, how do one knows of it. Even when one is day dreaming, the thinking exist, if the thinking does not exist how do one day dream. > > Similiar if the five aggregates do not exist, Buddha would not be able to describe it. Dhamma is visible is meant, it can be know, since it can be know, it has to exist, if not how do one knows or how do Buddha explain dhamma if it does not exist at all. > > Another argument, Buddha said before 4NT exist whether there is arisen or no arisen of Buddha. This shows the 4NT exist, dhamma exist just that it does not belong to anyone :-) #107211 From: "Ken" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:11 am Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! kenhowardau Hi Alex and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello all, > > > "Meditation is the way to achieve letting go. In meditation one lets go of the complex world outside in order to reach the serene world inside. In all types of mysticism, in many traditions, this is known as the path to the pure and powerful mind. The experience of this pure mind, released from the world, is very wonderful and blissful. ------------- KH: Why not take heed of the Dhamma? It says there is no one - no self - there are only the presently arisen namas and rupas. ------------------ > "In all types of mysticism, in many traditions, this is known as the path to the pure and powerful mind. > ------------------- Yes, but why persist with those eternity and annihilation traditions? They are not the way out. --------------------------- > "The experience of this pure mind, released from the world, is very wonderful and blissful. > --------------------------- If you choose to believe in a pure mind that is released during meditation you choose to the ignore the Buddha's teaching. That is your privilege, but please don't say it is the Buddha's teaching. Is that too much to ask? Ken H #107212 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:20 am Subject: Re: Little selves? ptaus1 Hi KenH, > KH: The way I remember it, dhammas are said to be real because they bear their own sabhava (intrinsic nature). That would include both their specific characteristics and the three general characteristics. pt: Yes, I think so, here's a quote I have saved from RobertK's post, which seems to say that sabhava is in fact no different than the characteristics: ----- "the majjhimanikaya tika (mulapariyaya sutta) has the following to say. I use bhikkhu bodhi's translation p39. It comments on the atthakatha which says "they bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas." The tika(subcommentary ) notes. "although there are no dhammas devoid of their own characteristics this is said fro the purpose of showing that mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures devoid of such attributes as being etc... whereas such entities as self, permanence or nature, soul, body etc are mere misconstructions due to craving and views...and cannot be discovered as ultinately real actualities, these dhammas (ie.those endowed with a specific sabhava) can. these dhammas are discovered as actually real actualties. And although there IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their characteristics, still, in order to facilitate understanding, the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known , acccording to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas" ----- pt: Also, the last line seems very important - i.e. that these characteristics are what is discerned in fact, so it is not a matter of views/philosophy but of insight. > KH: Very importantly (to my mind) it includes their characteristic of being kusala or akusala (etc). I find that important because it means good and evil are not just matters of opinion. Kusala dhammas are kusala no matter what anyone may think, and so are akusala dhammas akusala. pt: This is a good point I overlooked. Not sure whether a/kusala would be classed as individual or general characteristic, or maybe a class of its own. > KH: But most importantly (as I was trying to tell Paul), the ultimate reality of dhammas explains how the world is without self. If dhammas were no more ultimately real than concepts then we would be back where we started, not knowing a middle way between eternalism and annihilationism. pt: I think that you address here the side of the spectrum leaning towards annihilationism - i.e. if dhammas were equal to illusory concepts, then that would be going too far towards annihilationism. I agree here with you. However, I think Paul's (hypothetical) definition of dhammas as "exist(ing) inherently, in and of itself, with no qualification or caveats required" was addressing the other side of the spectrum - i.e. going too far towards eternalism. I still find it really hard to agree with such definition because imo it really goes too far - it seems to be much closer to a different explanation of sabhava, which seems to have been rejected in Psm (also from RobertK's post I saved): ----- "What is voidness in change? Born materiality is void of individual essence[1]; disappeared materiality is both changed and void. Born feeling is void of individual essence; disappeared feeling is both changed and void. Born perception...Born being is void of individual essence; disappeared being is both changed and void." Footnote 1 (from the Saddhammappakaasinii, the Commentary to the Pa.tisambhidamagga): "'Void of individual essence': here sabhava (individual essence) is saya.m bhavo (essence by itself); arising of itself (sayam eva uppado) is the meaning. Or sabhava is sako bhavo (own essence); own arising (attano yeva uppado). Because of existence in dependence on conditions (paccayayattavuttitta) there is in it no essence by itself or essence of its own, thus it is 'void of individual essence'. What is meant is that it is void of essence by itself or of its own essence." ----- Would you dis/agree? Thanks. Best wishes pt #107213 From: "Rob" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:20 am Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! rrobinrb2000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken" wrote: > > If you choose to believe in a pure mind that is released during meditation you choose to the ignore the Buddha's teaching. That is your privilege, but please don't say it is the Buddha's teaching. > > Is that too much to ask? > > Ken H > Ken H, The Buddha seem to use the word visuddha, spiritual purification / utter purification / complete purification, quite a bit. He seemed to use vimutti {complete liberation, deliverance, emancipstion}, nibbana, and visuddha as near if not exact synonyms. He referred to Adhicitta, the original or higher mind / mentality / spirituality. He talked about Citta Bhavana; Mental / Spiritual Cultivation / Development. A Sutta mentions Purified Citta, cleansed of adventitious defilements. I do not see how it is necessarily wrong to say that a purified mind is part of the Buddha's teaching. It may or may not be the correct interpretation of those Suttas. Is it too much to ask to say that there are different takes on what the Buddha taught? These different takes actually have quite a bit in common; they are more alike than different. Why arouse enmity over subtle distinctions? No one is saying that adhicitta is a perpetual, unchanging atta, like a soul. robin #107214 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:34 am Subject: Khujjuttara farrellkevin80 Friends, please listen attentively to the story of Khujjuttara, the Excellent One, who was a Great Disciple - one of the Buddha's Foremost Female Disciples - as well as declared to be His Most Learned Female Disciple, by the Exalted One, who was perfectly enlightened by Himself. When I read these stories of these exalted people my eyes well up with tears. Friends, it is only because of the Ariyas that any true merit is made! It is only because of the Noble Doctrine that any lasting happiness is attained! What could be better than paying reverence to these Exalted Ones, to the Noble Sangha? What could be better? Nothing at all. It is through association with the wise that the Dhamma is heard and learned. It is through this that peace is attained. We hear so many things in a day, but rarely anything as important as this: "Khujjuttara was Queen Samavati's maid, a flower-buyer. King Udena gave Queen Samavati eight coins every day to buy flowers. And the Queen gave Khujjuttara eight coins to buy flowers. Whereupon, Khujjuttara took four coins for herself and bought only four coins worth of flowers and presented them to Queen Samavati. One day, the flower seller, Sumana offered alms-food to the Lord Buddha and Sangha at the house. Sumana, invited Khujjuttara to listen to the appreciative expression (anumodana dhamma). Khujjuttara listened very attentively and respectfully so as to memorize every word. While listening she meditated penetratively and thus became stream-winner (sotapanna) at the end of the discourse. At the end of the dhamma discourse, she bought all eight coins worth of flowers and presented them to Queen Samavati. Because the flowers were double the usual amount, Queen Samavati asked Khujjuttara whether King Udena had given her eight coins more as there were more flowers. Khujjuttara answered in the negative and that flowers were eight coins worth that day. On previous days, she had taken four coins for herself and had bought only four coins worth of flowers. She answered truthfully. Queen Snmavati was amazed and enquired why she did not steal and tell lies that day Khujjuttara responded, she could not steal or tell lies because she had listened to the Lord Buddha's discourse that day. Queen Samavati thought Lord Buddha's Teachings have so much power and was full of reverence and longed to listen to the dhamma. Thus, she asked Khujjuttara if she could repeat the discourse she had listened to, Khujjuttark. answered that she could. She was given good clothes to wear and a respectable place from which to relate the dhamma discourse. Queen Samavati and five hundred attendants became sotapanna at the end of the discourse. After becoming sotapanna they desired more and more to listen to the Teachings of Lord Buddha. Hence, they sent Khujjuttara wherever Lord Buddha gave dhamma discourse and then listened to Khujjuttara again. Because Khujjuttara listened to the dhamma discourse every time and related to Samavati and five hundred attendants, she learnt the 'Three Pitakas' without being taught but only through listening. Lord Buddha, in giving the highest title to lay women, Khujjuttara was given the highest honour, the pre-eminent position (etadagga), in being skilful and learned in the Pitakas. Thus after receiving the highest honour, Khujjuttara became well-known in Lord Buddha's sasana. One day, some monks asked Lord Buddha: Oh Lord! (1) Why is Khujjuttara a hunchback? (2) Why can she learn the Three Pitakas just by listening? (3) Why did she become a sotapanna so quickly while listening to the dhamma discourse? (4) Why did she become a maid in the life she is to attain noble dhamma. The Lord Buddha replied in the following way: Khujjuttara-to-be was a maid at the palace of King Brahmadatta at Baranasi before the life time of Gotama Buddha, after the Enlightenment of Kassapa Buddha. Lord Buddha went on relating Khujjuttara's past lives. (1) Once eight Silent Buddhas (Pacceka Buddhas) in cluding one hunchback came to the palace of King Brahmadatta for alms- food. The maids including Khujjuttara put rice in golden bowls and wearing red shawls on their shoulders, offered alms-food. When they had finished offering, Khujjuttara held the golden bowl as the alms-bowl, wore the red shawl like a robe, went forward and mimicked the hunch-back Pacceka Buddha and made fun so that everyone laughed. That is why, because she had made fun of the Pacceka Buddha, she became a hunchback from birth. (2) The reason why she was so intelligent was as follows: One day when the eight Pacceka Buddhas came to the palace for alms-food, the alms bowls were full, and because they were hot, the Pacceka Buddhas held the bowls with one hand and another, the right hand and the left hand. When Khujjuttara saw this, she at once took off her eight ivory bangles and offered them to the Pacceka Buddhas to serve as alms bowl stands so as to alleviate the heat. Thus because she was quick-witted and offered the ivory bangles to alleviate the heat from the hands of Pacceka Buddhas, in the present life she became very intelligent and learnt the Three Pitakas while listening to the dhamma discourse of the Lord Buddha. (3) Why Khujjuttara became a sotapanna rapidly is because when Pacceka Buddhas came to the palace she performed the necessary duties respectfully. Because of this merit she became a sotapanna while listening to the Lord Buddha's dhamma discourse at the offering of alms-food ceremony, by Sumana, the flower seller. (4) Why Khujjuttara became a maid. During the time of Kassapa Buddha, Khujjuttara-to-be was a rich man's daughter at Baranasi. One evening she was beautifying herself in front of a big mirror. At that time a Holy or liberated female medicant (arahanta bhikkhuni), who was friendly with her came to her place. The rich man's daughter asked the arahanta bhikkhuni to fetch some of her cosmetics. The arahanta bhikkhuni thought to herself. If I don't get the things she asked for, she will be angry and bear a grudge with the result that she will go to realms of continuous suffering (niraya). If I carry out the task she will become a servant for five hundred existances. Out of these two kinds of bad results, to be a servant would be better than to go to niraya. Thus thinking she did the things as bidden by the rich man's daughter. The Lord Buddha discoursed that because Khujjuttara had asked a respectable arahanta bhikkhuni to do things she became a servant for five hundred existences."http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/dmpdtha.htm Kevin #107215 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:53 am Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! szmicio Dear Alex, > "Meditation is the way to achieve letting go. In meditation one lets go of the complex world outside in order to reach the serene world inside. In all types of mysticism, in many traditions, this is known as the path to the pure and powerful mind. The experience of this pure mind, released from the world, is very wonderful and blissful. L: And no letting go. Just attachment. Best wishes Lukas #107216 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:55 am Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! kenhowardau Hi Robin, --------- KH: > > If you choose to believe in a pure mind that is released during meditation you choose to the ignore the Buddha's teaching. That is your privilege, but please don't say it is the Buddha's teaching. > > Is that too much to ask? R: > I do not see how it is necessarily wrong to say that a purified mind is part of the Buddha's teaching. It may or may not be the correct interpretation of those Suttas. Is it too much to ask to say that there are different takes on what the Buddha taught? These different takes actually have quite a bit in common; they are more alike than different. Why arouse enmity over subtle distinctions? No one is saying that adhicitta is a perpetual, unchanging atta, like a soul. -------- You are quite right, that probably sounded unfriendly. Especially to someone who is new to the group. I have been having these discussions with Alex and others for several years, and we can generally get away with undiplomatic language. But I have to remember some people don't realise that. :-) As for whether the distinctions are "subtle" that is another matter. I think you have noticed that the practices promoted by some meditation teachers (such as the one being discussed) have almost no foundation in the original texts. A few key words are borrowed from a few suttas, but with no regard for their original meaning. These teachers are leading people away from the true Dhamma. Maybe their language is diplomatic and friendly but what they are doing is very unfriendly. Ken H > The Buddha seem to use the word visuddha, spiritual purification / utter purification / complete purification, quite a bit. He seemed to use vimutti {complete liberation, deliverance, emancipstion}, nibbana, and visuddha as near if not exact synonyms. He referred to Adhicitta, the original or higher mind / mentality / spirituality. He talked about Citta Bhavana; Mental / Spiritual Cultivation / Development. A Sutta mentions Purified Citta, cleansed of adventitious defilements. > > robin > #107217 From: "Mike" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:03 am Subject: Complex Cetasikas mikenz66 Dear DSG, This question has puzzled me for some time. If I look at lists of cetasikas (such as on page 79 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Ed Bhikkhu Bodhi), most of them are "simple", and seem to realistically fit into a momentary model of momentary cittas (e.g. perception, energy, etc). However, some seem much more complex, for example: (49) Right Livelihood, which comes up in II.6 and is described in the guide as: "Samma-ajiva: Right livelihood is the deliberate abstinence from wrong livelihood, such as dealing in poisons, intoxicants, weapons, slaves, or animals for slaughter." I find it hard to reconcile such a description with the model of momentary citta, since it seems to me that "abstaining from ..." involves a whole series of cittas. How can it be a characteristic of an individual citta? Presumably I'm muddled, and I'd appreciate some help. Mike #107218 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:32 am Subject: Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi pt, ------- <. . .> > KH: But most importantly (as I was trying to tell Paul), the ultimate reality of dhammas explains how the world is without self. If dhammas were no more ultimately real than concepts then we would be back where we started, not knowing a middle way between eternalism and annihilationism. pt: I think that you address here the side of the spectrum leaning towards annihilationism - i.e. if dhammas were equal to illusory concepts, then that would be going too far towards annihilationism. I agree here with you. ------- Thanks, pt. Actually I hadn't thought about it quite that way. The way it usually seems to me is: if dhammas were equal to illusory concepts then then the apparent existence (concept) of self would still not be replaced by anything definite. The door would remain open to the possibility of an eternal soul. ------------------------ pt: > However, I think Paul's (hypothetical) definition of dhammas as "exist(ing) inherently, in and of itself, with no qualification or caveats required" was ddressing the other side of the spectrum - i.e. going too far towards eternalism. ------------------------- I happen to know a little bit about Mahayana philosophy. So when I hear terms such as "in and of itself" I am on my guard. :-) Mahayana claims (or so I have heard) that nothing has its "own being". This applies to everything, concept and dhammas alike. Instead of "own being" the theory posits an Ocean of Being on which any thing, person or dhamma is just a ripple or a wave - a wave that has its own appearance, but is essentially just part of the ocean. Quite obviously to me, the Ocean of Being is just another name for Our Eternal Home, but I don't think our Mahayana friends would admit to that. ------------------------------------ pt: > I still find it really hard to agree with such definition because imo it really goes too far - it seems to be much closer to a different explanation of sabhava, which seems to have been rejected in Psm (also from RobertK's post I saved): ----- "What is voidness in change? Born materiality is void of individual essence[1]; disappeared materiality is both changed and void. Born feeling is void of individual essence; disappeared feeling is both changed and void. Born perception...Born being is void of individual essence; disappeared being is both changed and void." Footnote 1 (from the Saddhammappakaasinii, the Commentary to the Pa.tisambhidamagga): "'Void of individual essence': here sabhava (individual essence) is saya.m bhavo (essence by itself); arising of itself (sayam eva uppado) is the meaning. Or sabhava is sako bhavo (own essence); own arising (attano yeva uppado). Because of existence in dependence on conditions (paccayayattavuttitta) there is in it no essence by itself or essence of its own, thus it is 'void of individual essence'. What is meant is that it is void of essence by itself or of its own essence." ----- Would you dis/agree? Thanks. ------------------------------ That's got me stumped. I agree with all the ancient commentaries, but in this case I don't understand them. :-) That quote would have to be read as consistent with the first commentary quote you gave (re the Mulapariyaya Sutta) but, exactly how to do that, I don't know offhand. Ken H #107219 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:16 am Subject: Re: Hello jonoabb Hi Rick --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Rick" wrote: > > Just wanted to say a "hello". Have been interested in Buddhism via member of Theosophical Society. > =============== Welcome to the list. Thanks for introducing yourself. I hope you enjoy your stay with us. Please feel free to bring up any comments, thoughts or questions at any time. > =============== Further refinement from recommendation to read The Dhammapada (Eknath Easwaran translation) > =============== The Dhammapada can be very abstruse (much like verse in any language ;-)). Do you have access to the commentary? Jon #107220 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight jonoabb Hi Robin I've been enjoying your contribution to the discussions here. (107207) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" wrote: > ... I do not think the scattered attention of an untrained mind, one that jumps randomly from one object to another, is khanika sanadhi. I think it is khanika, but not not samadhi. > =============== In conventional usage, concentration can refer to the focussing on the task at hand, be it a simple or complex one, so that the task can be successfully completed. I think there is a parallel in the dhamma. 'Samadhi' refers to the concentration of the citta on its object, regardless of whether that object is a constantly changing one or is the same object being taken repeatedly. > =============== A child randomly pounding on piano keys is not the same as Anna Fedorova playing Chopin's Polonaise. > =============== Agreed. BTW, the skilful playing of Chopin's Polonaise would be a good example of a conventional task requiring a high degree of concentration, where the 'object' is changing constantly. > =============== > I do not think that directing or controlling one's mind somehow infers an attachment to a perpetual abiding self. > =============== Right. We could say the Buddha's mind was well controlled. But it is a matter of one's understanding of the way of development leading to such control that may (or may not) involve ideas of a self. Jon #107221 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight jonoabb Hi Mike (107208) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote:> ... > Mike: Querying opinions expressed by people on this forum is not necessarily the same as disagreeing with the Arahants. > =============== Well said! Unfortunately, this is something that tends to get lost in the heat of the `debate' from time to time ;-)) Jon #107222 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:29 am Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! jonoabb Hi Alex (107209) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > "Meditation is the way to achieve letting go. In meditation one lets go of the complex world outside in order to reach the serene world inside. > =============== There are many kinds and degrees of 'letting go' in the teachings, in fact as many as there are kinds and degrees of clinging. Perhaps the most subtle of these are (a) conceit and (b) the clinging to becoming. To my understanding, clinging is eradicated by the development of insight that sees dhammas as they truly are. These dhammas include the 'outside' as well as the 'inside' ones; the akusala as well as the kusala ones. Jon #107223 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:43 am Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas jonoabb Hi Mike (107217) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Dear DSG, > > This question has puzzled me for some time. If I look at lists of cetasikas (such as on page 79 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Ed Bhikkhu Bodhi), most of them are "simple", and seem to realistically fit into a momentary model of momentary cittas (e.g. perception, energy, etc). > > However, some seem much more complex, for example: > (49) Right Livelihood, which comes up in II.6 and is described in the guide as: > "Samma-ajiva: Right livelihood is the deliberate abstinence from wrong livelihood, such as dealing in poisons, intoxicants, weapons, slaves, or animals for slaughter." > > I find it hard to reconcile such a description with the model of momentary citta, since it seems to me that "abstaining from ..." involves a whole series of cittas. How can it be a characteristic of an individual citta? Presumably I'm muddled, and I'd appreciate some help. > > Mike All conventional situations involve a series of cittas. Within a given series of cittas, different functions are being performed at different moments of consciousness. In the case of abstaining from akusala, one of those functions has to be restraint, since without cittas performing this function there would be no abstaining. Hoping this makes sense. Jon #107224 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts can lead to awakening nilovg Dear Ken O, I did not make any statement. I just want to share what I heard from Kh Sujin on tape. When I hear more on the subject I shall continue. Nina. Op 26-apr-2010, om 17:10 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Till date i have yet meet any Abhidhamma text or in any > commentaries commenting that concepts cannot be used as a > development of understanding just because is does not bear its own > characteristics. Unless you could prove your statement, we should > make such statements that are not gounded on the texts. #107225 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:17 am Subject: New member's message jonoabb A new member has sent the following message for the list: From: dhammastudygroup-owner@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup-owner@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ropropm Pawl Sent: 22 April 2010 16:46 To: dhammastudygroup Moderator Subject: Re: Yahoo! Groups: Welcome to dhammastudygroup. Visit today! Hello My Friend I am new here. So anyone instroduce me about Buddhism please. paw #107226 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:29 am Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas kenhowardau Hi Mike, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Dear DSG, > > This question has puzzled me for some time. If I look at lists of cetasikas (such as on page 79 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Ed Bhikkhu Bodhi), most of them are "simple", and seem to realistically fit into a momentary model of momentary cittas (e.g. perception, energy, etc). > > However, some seem much more complex, for example: > (49) Right Livelihood, which comes up in II.6 and is described in the guide as: > "Samma-ajiva: Right livelihood is the deliberate abstinence from wrong livelihood, such as dealing in poisons, intoxicants, weapons, slaves, or animals for slaughter." > > I find it hard to reconcile such a description with the model of momentary citta, since it seems to me that "abstaining from ..." involves a whole series of cittas. How can it be a characteristic of an individual citta? Presumably I'm muddled, and I'd appreciate some help. ----------------- I think it would help if you left aside the word "right" for the time being. Anything with that word in front of it is a factor of the path, which is a uniquely different kind of citta. So just talking about "abstaining from . . ." (as you were doing) will make things easier. I wonder why you are having trouble with this particular momentary dhamma. All action, good and bad, is ultimately cetana cetasika, which performs its function in a single moment (a single citta). I gather you have understood that much. Abstaining from bad action, which is virati cetasika, similarly must take place in one moment. It is the function of virati cetasika. It seems to me you have already understood the hard part. Virati should be a doddle. :-) Ken H #107227 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:11 am Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas szmicio Dear Mike, > This question has puzzled me for some time. If I look at lists of cetasikas (such as on page 79 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Ed Bhikkhu Bodhi), most of them are "simple", and seem to realistically fit into a momentary model of momentary cittas (e.g. perception, energy, etc). > > However, some seem much more complex, for example: > (49) Right Livelihood, which comes up in II.6 and is described in the guide as: > "Samma-ajiva: Right livelihood is the deliberate abstinence from wrong livelihood, such as dealing in poisons, intoxicants, weapons, slaves, or animals for slaughter." > > I find it hard to reconcile such a description with the model of momentary citta, since it seems to me that "abstaining from ..." involves a whole series of cittas. How can it be a characteristic of an individual citta? Presumably I'm muddled, and I'd appreciate some help. L: maybe it supports experiencing. than this is a reality that is right livelihood. Can you quote the CMA on right livelihood? I think samma-ajiva is not easy to grasp. This is a reality not a concept, I think. Best wishes Lukas #107228 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:29 am Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas szmicio Dear Ken H, Mike > I wonder why you are having trouble with this particular momentary dhamma. All action, good and bad, is ultimately cetana cetasika, which performs its function in a single moment (a single citta). I gather you have understood that much. Abstaining from bad action, which is virati cetasika, similarly must take place in one moment. It is the function of virati cetasika. L: Yes it is. This is siila-anisamsa that comes in such moments. It's the benefit of siila, this condition concentration. Buddha and Theras saw this, this is why sometimes siila is mention first than samadhi and than pa~n~na. Very subtle and accurate distinction. siila conditions concentration(samadhi), this is very true, very natural. virati cetasika, this is what refrains, not we, so this is so great opportunity for us that we've heard good Dhamma. We can learn just dhatu, that refrains not we. And i think the same consideration shall be done with right livelihood. I spent some time with my friends recently and I saw that there was lot of bad speach and action, but I understand that this is only mental reality and if I consider more and more just element, dhatu, not me that speaks, it helps. just conditioned fleeting moments. I think only right understanding can condition right speach or right livelihood. Best wishes Lukas #107229 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight ashkenn2k Dear Mike I may too forceful, too much dosa,?my apology.? kind regards? Ken O #107230 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Nina My apology, you did not make such a statement.? The idea that satipatthana can only be developed only through nama and rupa is only applicable at vipassana nana.? Satipatthana is both samantha and vipassana bhavana.? It is not restricted to just one.? Panna does not distinguish whether the object of the mind is concept or dhamma,?it just penetrates the understanding of anatta, anicca and dukkha on whatever object that arise with the mind.? thanks Ken O >? >Dear Ken O, >I did not make any statement. I just want to share what I heard from >Kh Sujin on tape. When I hear more on the subject I shall continue. >Nina. >Op 26-apr-2010, om 17:10 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > #107231 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts can lead to awakening nilovg Dear Ken O, Thanks. The whole subject is complex, but it is very interesting what Kh S. has to say, relating samatha and vipassanaa. I have to go slowly. She goes over all the body parts and is now at kidney. I hear aspects I had not paid attention to before. Nina. Op 27-apr-2010, om 15:19 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > The idea that satipatthana can only be developed only through nama > and rupa is only applicable at vipassana nana. Satipatthana is > both samantha and vipassana bhavana. It is not restricted to just > one. Panna does not distinguish whether the object of the mind is > concept or dhamma, it just penetrates the understanding of anatta, > anicca and dukkha on whatever object that arise with the mind. #107232 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The role of samatha for insight ashkenn2k Dear Kevin definitely is panna, do that mean we can be both a thief and expect ourselves to be enlighted through such actions :-). Can wisdom arise alone or there are other factors that support wisdom and support its development. Could one just become sotapanna without previous development. If it is just panna alone, why did Buddha goes such great length to talk about virture, samadhi and panna and the other dhammas in the Abhidhamma. Cheers Ken O > >Dear Ken, > >Even a thief can become pure through wisdom alone. > >Of course all types of kusala benefit the path though, no doubt about it. > >"One day, Sumana, a flower seller offered food to the Sanghas led >by the Buddha after she had obtained permission from the said three >millionaires. On that very day, a maid, servant of the Queen Samavati by the name of Khujjuttara went out to buy flowers as usual. Sumana, the >flower seller told Khujjuttara: "Today I've fervently requested the >Enlightened One to accept and take the offer of food at my residence. I >invite you also to join me to hear the Buddha's teaching after the meal >is over. You may buy the flowers and take them away only after >listening to the Buddha's sermon." Khujjttara accepted the invitation and then >listened to the Anumodana Dhamma attentively along with Sumana. >In the course of the sermon. Khujjuttara through contemplation and >noting on what had been heard, achieved sotapatti-magga- phala, and became a Sotapanna. >It was stated that usually Khujjuttara bought only four kyats >worth of flowers out of eight kyats given for her from the King's >coffers, keeping four kyats for her own personal use. On that particular day >since she had become a Sotapanna,' she had absolutely no intention to >steal other people's property. She therefore bought eight kyats worth of >flowers. Seeing the flowers much more than that had been usually found, Samavatl inquired, "O, Sister! Did the King give you double the amount >of money that was ordinarily given to purchase the flowers particularly today?" To this query, Khujjuttara replied, "No, Madam, certainly >not." "Why then there are flowers about twice as many as were usually the Case?" asked the Queen. Khujjuttara admitted: "Usually on previous >occasions, I pocketed four kyats, and only bought four kyats worth of >flowers. Today, I had bought flowers to the full value of all eight >kyats." This was a candid reply by abstaining herself from telling lies or >falsehood. This manner of reply deserves paying attention. Simply >because, in those ancient times, a Queen had full and absolute powers to the >extent of imposing a capital punishment on any person whom she disliked >or considered guilty. The Queen could possibly give orders to execute >Khujjuttara for having committed theft of the money paid to buy flowers, >or rather, for the offence of is appropriation. However, Khujjuttara had >spoken the truth and nothing but the truth without fear of the >consequences that might befall her. This noble and honest attitude in >telling the truth is the courageous attribute of sotapattimagga, the >Special Dhamma. Further interrogations made as to why she did not slice off >half the amount of money given to her on that day, Khujjuttara replied >that it as because she had gained the Special Dhamma, the wakening of >the higher consciousness of the Dhamma" > >-- Mahasi Sayadaw, http://www.buddhane t.net/brahmaviha ras/bvd057. htm > > #107233 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ashkenn2k Dear pt >------------ --------- --------- ------ >pt: > I still find it really hard to agree with such definition because imo it really goes too far - it seems to be much closer to a different explanation of sabhava, which seems to have been rejected in Psm (also from RobertK's post I saved): >----- >"What is voidness in change? Born materiality is void of individual >essence[1]; disappeared materiality is both changed and void. Born >feeling is void of individual essence; disappeared feeling is both >changed and void. Born perception.. .Born being is void of individual >essence; disappeared being is both changed and void." > >Footnote 1 (from the Saddhammappakaasini i, the Commentary to the >Pa.tisambhidamagga) : >"'Void of individual essence': here sabhava (individual >essence) is saya.m bhavo (essence by itself); arising of itself (sayam >eva uppado) is the meaning. Or sabhava is sako bhavo (own >essence); own arising (attano yeva uppado). Because of existence in >dependence on conditions (paccayayattavuttit ta) there is in it >no essence by itself or essence of its own, thus it is 'void of >individual essence'. What is meant is that it is void of essence by >itself or of its own essence." >----- > >Would you dis/agree? Thanks. >------------ --------- --------- > KO:?? this explanation by the void of individual essence is in that its essence is independent and it can arise on its own.? Even though dhamma has its own characteristics,? it cannot arise on its own or by its own essence because its arisen depends on conditions.? Just like feeling feels can only arise when citta arise, feelings feel cannot arise on its own even though its characertistics can be perceived. Kind regards Ken O #107234 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New member's message nilovg Dear paw and Rick, Welcome here. It is good if you write what struck you in Buddhism. Rick, as to Theosophy, this reminds me of Anagarika Dharmapala who was from Sri Lanka and came to India, being so active to preserve the holy places. He was first in Theosophical circles, Colonel Olcott, Ms Blavatski, and I read this with interest, since at home my parents were acquainted with the history and ideas of Theosophy. They often mentioned names. Dharmapala was active in a Buddhist Theosophical Society. Nina. Op 27-apr-2010, om 12:17 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > Hello My Friend > I am new here. So anyone instroduce me about Buddhism please. > > paw #107235 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight ashkenn2k Dear Rob >I do not know enough about Theravada Abhidhamma to even begin forming an opinion. Now, some things I have read here; which seem to rely on Theravada Abhidhamma for authority, I do not agree with at this time. Of course, I may have missed the point. Another thing, I have nothing against those with whom I disagree. > >I do agree with what Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote about about Parikamma / Upacara / Appana and Khanika Samadhi. I think one can suspend hindrances and direct the flow of thoughts. Nina just posted about suspending the hindrances. I do not think the scattered attention of an untrained mind, one that jumps randomly from one object to another, is khanika sanadhi. I think it is khanika, but not not samadhi. A child randomly pounding on piano keys is not the same as Anna Fedorova playing Chopin's Polonaise. > KO:? Yes no doubt, hindrances can be suppressed.? The path of development is not about whether there is samadhi or not, it is rather the understanding of anatta.? Be it your mind is trained in fixing on one object to achieve jhanas or your mind is trained moment by moment, the objective of the path is not lost as long as there is clear comprehension of dhamma as not self.? There are two bhavana, so it is not easy for one to understand the other.? >I do not think that directing or controlling one's mind somehow infers an attachment to a perpetual abiding self. I do suspect there is a trans-personal subjective aspect of being; but that is another matter. KO:? yes the mind can be directed.? because there are cetasikas that direct the mind like vitakka and cetana.? So the nature of control or not control does not matter to dhamma because directing?dhamma does not mean there is a self because there is real dhamma?performing this function.? Just like when you write this email, without these two cetasiaks,?it would not be possible for you to direct your fingers on the keyboard.? But then, these two cetasikas could arise with aksuala, so we have be?mindful especially?sakkayaditthi which?is?quite suble.??? Anatta is just explaining that dhamma by nature is already not control by anyone so the thinking control or not control would not affect the nature of the dhamma itself.??When we think we doing this we do not control dhamma, does not matter to dhamma, it is still anatta.? The focus rather should be understanding of this nature of dhamma cheers Ken O #107236 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Nina I?understand why she thinks like that because her practise is strictly vipassana bhavana.? So when there is a concept present, it is just attribute to nama and rupa.? the text has both ways, as concept and as nama and rupa.? I am? ok with both ways.? You read many texts so there is no need for me to explain more on this point, it could be seen clearly?in the text.? thanks Ken?O? > >From: Nina van Gorkom >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, 27 April 2010 21:32:40 >Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts can lead to awakening > >? >Dear Ken O, >Thanks. >The whole subject is complex, but it is very interesting what Kh S. >has to say, relating samatha and vipassanaa. I have to go slowly. She >goes over all the body parts and is now at kidney. I hear aspects I >had not paid attention to before. >Nina. #107237 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:08 pm Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening szmicio Excuse me Nina I am not in the topic. Does Khun Sujin commented samatha objects? How does she explained reflections on foulness of the body? Can I apply to that object as explained in Visudhimagga? Shall I sit and do verbal or mental chantings: this is kidney, this is skin etc.? And consider foulness of the body? Does this give me more calm or more understanding? Best wishes Lukas > The whole subject is complex, but it is very interesting what Kh S. > has to say, relating samatha and vipassanaa. I have to go slowly. She > goes over all the body parts and is now at kidney. I hear aspects I > had not paid attention to before. #107238 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 27-apr-2010, om 16:08 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Does Khun Sujin commented samatha objects? > > How does she explained reflections on foulness of the body? > Can I apply to that object as explained in Visudhimagga? Shall I > sit and do verbal or mental chantings: this is kidney, this is skin > etc.? > And consider foulness of the body? > > Does this give me more calm or more understanding? ------- N: It is more complex than that. But just now I cannot say much, lack of time. I come back to this later on. Nina. #107239 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts can lead to awakening nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 27-apr-2010, om 15:56 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > I understand why she thinks like that because her practise is > strictly vipassana bhavana. ------- N: There can be moments of calm, but as she says, these can be seen as anattaa. Nothing is excluded from satipa.t.thaana, not even reflections on the body parts. Nina. #107240 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Nina true, nothing is excluded from satipatthana thus even concepts can be an object of satipatthana as long as it is understood as not self.? But I do not think she believes concept can be act of satipatthana as the object is not a paramatha dhamma.? I understand where she is coming from and her basis of her beliefs in the dhamma.? She will look at the kidneys etc as elements just like breathing as nama and rupa.? Just that, we have to be open minded, as the development of the path is not strictly nama and rupa, not just vipassana bhavana only.? Everytime when I see one party supporting jhanas and another supporting nama and rupa, it just remind me of the sutta about the two groups of disciple where one group is on?samatha while the other is on vipassana.? So when I see this happens, I realise the importance of this sutta.? I am?comfortable with both practise, just that lets not impose one practise over the other.? Personally, I felt, we should help each other to understand dhamma. Respectfully Ken O >? >Dear Ken O, >Op 27-apr-2010, om 15:56 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > >> I understand why she thinks like that because her practise is >> strictly vipassana bhavana. >------- >N: There can be moments of calm, but as she says, these can be seen >as anattaa. Nothing is excluded from satipa.t.thaana, not even >reflections on the body parts. >Nina. > #107241 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:04 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, > Hi Alex and all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > "Meditation is the way to achieve letting go. In meditation one lets go of the complex world outside in order to reach the serene world inside. In all types of mysticism, in many traditions, this is known as the path to the pure and powerful mind. The experience of this pure mind, released from the world, is very wonderful and blissful. > ------------- > >KH: Why not take heed of the Dhamma? It says there is no one - no >self - there are only the presently arisen namas and rupas. There is no Self teaching there. Ajahn Brahm himself has stated somewhere that only nama reaches "jhana". No one (as in non-existent Self) does. Your question above is totally irrelevant. > ------------------ > > "In all types of mysticism, in many traditions, this is known as the path to the pure and > powerful mind. > > ------------------- > > Yes, but why persist with those eternity and annihilation >traditions? They are not the way out. He is trying to be nice to other traditions, that is all. Sometimes one tries to find some common ground with other beliefs. > --------------------------- > > "The experience of this pure mind, released from the world, is very wonderful and blissful. > > --------------------------- > > If you choose to believe in a pure mind that is released during >meditation you choose to the ignore the Buddha's teaching. Ceto-vimutti is mentioned frequently in the suttas, and it has nothing to do with "eternal citta". >KenH: If you choose to believe in a pure mind that is released >during meditation you choose to the ignore the Buddha's teaching. >That is your privilege, but please don't say it is the Buddha's >teaching. "To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind ? this is the teaching of the Buddhas." - Dhp 183 Virtue removes gross evil qualities Jhana burns the 5 hindrances. Wisdom removes subtle hindrances (avijja, ditthi ) Later depends on the former. It is like carpenter making a furniture out of log of wood. Different tools are used in different times for their respective functions. One chops a tree with a chainsaw. Then you cut the log with a smaller saw into a big rough piece . Then with more refined instruments you cut it into a proper shape. Sanding comes next with progressively finer and finer sand paper. Eventually you polish the piece with oil and wax. Some people think that that can go strait to the sanding to make a fine miniature wooden statue out of a tree, or to use only chainsaw for all stages. Obviously it will not work. This is how seem to approach the Dhamma. They try to use sandpaper to make a fine wooden statue out of a coarse tree... Or trying to get to the top of a staircase by jumping over intermediate steps... Or trying to build a 2nd floor without making a stable foundation first.... With metta, Alex #107242 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:15 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! truth_aerator Dear Lukas, KenH, all, >L: Dear Alex, > > > "Meditation is the way to achieve letting go. In meditation one lets go of the complex world outside in order to reach the serene world inside. In all types of mysticism, in many traditions, this is known as the path to the pure and powerful mind. The experience of this pure mind, released from the world, is very wonderful and blissful. > > L: And no letting go. Just attachment. > > Best wishes > Lukas > What is wrong with Sobhana cetasikas accompanied by wisdom? With metta, Alex #107244 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 4 types of concentration? ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >? >Dear Rob2K, Kevin, KenO, all, > >Some quote AN 4.41 sutta as support that Jhana is not needed. However if you look at the sutta SN 22.101 it will tell you that you do need to develop 4 Jhanas (as Samma-Samadhi) with other important factors of the N8P. What I think AN4.41 refutes is simple development of Jhana for the Bliss only. That doesn't lead to awakening. But Jhana as part of ENTIRE N8P does lead to 4th Concentration found in AN4.41 and Awakening. In the Susima Sutta, the Arhats never denied 4 form Jhanas. They affirmed it by claiming to be Panna-Vimutta, which does require at least 1st Jhana. Venerable BB did provide commentary on Susima sutta and has refuted it. > >Ven. BB translation & comment: >While SA seems to be saying that those bhikkhus did not have any jhanas, in the sutta itself Susima's questions establish only that they lacked the abhinna and aruppa; nothing is said about whether or not they had achieve the four jhanas. It is even possible that nijjhanaka should be understood, not as the deprivative "without jhana," but as derived from nijjhana, pondering, hence "ponderers." KO:?? We should change the sutta to our own liking.??this is not the first instance of?dry insightors in the commentary. ? The word ponderers, does not affect the commentarian point of view, why because the mind thinks, it always pondering.? This pondering?are vittaka and vicara.? So when these two cetasikas arise are mentioned, there is definitely no jhanas as jhanas are without vittaka and vicara.? thus, they are called ponderers. > >"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates : 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance. ' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. >http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an04/an04. 041.than. html > >And how does one develop the 4th type of concentation above? KO:?? During the arising of the path factors in attaining sotapanna etc, there is absorption.? For dry insightors, up to 1st jhanas only, that is the meaning of right concentraton to the dry insightors path.? > >[Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel... > >"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment without a sequel." >http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an09/an09. 044.than. html > >So that insight concentration does require Samma-Samadhi (4 Jhanas) with other factors of the N8P and factors of Awakening. KO:? Yes at the moment of attainment, there is absorption.? Also there is no need to do all four jhanas in order to attain the path, this is spoken in the suttas.?? You can also search for it whether I said is correct or not. Cheers Ken O #107245 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:23 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + truth_aerator Hi Jon, KenH, all, > Hi Alex > > (107209) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > "Meditation is the way to achieve letting go. In meditation one lets go of the complex world outside in order to reach the serene world inside. > > =============== > > There are many kinds and degrees of 'letting go' in the teachings, >in fact as many as there are kinds and degrees of clinging. Right. >Perhaps the most subtle of these are (a) conceit and (b) the >clinging to becoming. And that is why it is one of the last fetters to go. Even Anagamis have conceit, feeling of "I AM", and clinging to becoming. For people below stream-entry, worrying about clinging to Jhanas is like a person worrying "what to do with all this money" that one hasn't earned yet and doesn't yet have that possibility. Jhanas are great wholesome states and thus are not to be feared, perhaps not until one is Anagamin. If one cannot temporary let go of hindrances, then what makes you think that you can permanently cut them off? Skipping steps may make one slip and fall... A simile of a carpenter making a fine object. You chops a tree with a chainsaw. Then you cut the log with a smaller saw into a big rough piece . Then with more refined instruments you cut it into a proper shape. Sanding comes next with progressively finer and finer sand paper. Eventually you polish the piece with oil and wax. Some people think that that can go strait to the sanding to make a fine miniature wooden statue out of a tree, or to use only chainsaw for all stages. Obviously it will not work. This is how seem to approach the Dhamma. They try to use sandpaper to make a fine wooden statue out of a coarse tree... Or trying to get to the top of a staircase by jumping over intermediate steps... Or trying to build a 2nd floor without making a stable foundation first.... Or another example: Building a house. Some parts of construction require heavy machinery, some parts require finer equipment (like hammer), and some parts (like for electrical wiring) require very fine instruments like pliers. Each has its own time and place. You can't build a house using only the most powerful tools (construction machinery) or most fine tools (pliers) alone. With metta, Alex #107246 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! ashkenn2k Dear Alex >> > >What is wrong with Sobhana cetasikas accompanied by wisdom? > > KO:? I agreed with Lukas, it is full of attachment, letting go?of one world to another world.???Dhamma is by nature not self, what is there to let go.? No one can let go of dhamma, only can understand dhamma.? ?Saying it is being nice to other traditions, did you see Buddha being nice to other traditions if they are not of the correct view.??.? kind regards Ken O #107247 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:49 pm Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening szmicio Dear Ken O, > true, nothing is excluded from satipatthana thus even concepts can be an object of satipatthana as long as it is understood as not self. L: concepts cannot be object of satipatthana, this is impossible, only nama and ruupa can be object to sati. concepts maybe can condition satipatthana. there is nothing wrong in that. Best wishes Lukas #107248 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:09 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! szmicio Dear Alex, > > > "Meditation is the way to achieve letting go. In meditation one lets go of the complex world outside in order to reach the serene world inside. In all types of mysticism, in many traditions, this is known as the path to the pure and powerful mind. The experience of this pure mind, released from the world, is very wonderful and blissful. > > > > L: And no letting go. Just attachment. > > > > Best wishes > > Lukas > > > > > What is wrong with Sobhana cetasikas accompanied by wisdom? L: When it appears? Alex, if you would experience one moment of sobhana citta accompanied by wisdom, the whole world would be different to you, and to me also. In such moments there is no mom, no dad, only nama and ruupa. Alex I see you dont appreciate Khun Sujin's work's, so you doubt. But belive me her teachings are so perfect, they always go with 4 Noble Truths. This is so hard to appreciate because we all thinks: 'oh what if this leads to laziness or to non-action', those are doubts. I like to consider as thinking with doubts when I have such thinking. Just dhatu that thinks like that and of no importance. Best wishes Lukas #107249 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening szmicio Dear Nina, > N: It is more complex than that. But just now I cannot say much, lack > of time. I come back to this later on. L: As you said this is complex. I think the same. But I wanna here your explanation. I think 40 objets are hard and we need someone to explain it to us. I've noticed that when I consider or apply to objects than strong attachment drops in all the time. This is why I like to leave it for now. I dont understand 40 objects, I cannot do anything with that. Best wishes Lukas #107250 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight szmicio Dear Ken O, > I may too forceful, too much dosa,?my apology.? L: it helps me if other people have anger, I understand this is conditioned, this helps me to have more metta. Best wishes Lukas #107251 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Complex Cetasikas ashkenn2k Dear Mike M: I find it hard to reconcile such a description with the model of momentary citta, since it seems to me that "abstaining from ..." involves a whole series of cittas. How can it be a characteristic of an individual citta? Presumably I'm muddled, and I'd appreciate some help. Right livelihood is mundane and supramundane.? As for mundane, the object could be a concept.? ?Commentary to Right View <> For supramundane,?it is the eradication of defilements.?? ? In Dispeller of Delusion pg 142, para 561 <<561.? In the description of Right Livelihood. Idha (here) means "in this dispensation".? Ariyasavako ("the noble disciple") means the disciple of the Noble Enlightenment One.? Miccha-ajivam pahaya ("abandoning wrong livelihood") means abandoning bad livelihood.? Samma-ajivena ("by right livelihood'): makes the process of life proceed ? 562.? And also because there is abstaining from transgressing in the body door by one consciousness and from transgression in the speech door by another, therefore this arises in mutliple moments in the prior stage.? But at the moment of the path, profitable abstention called Right Livelihood arises singly, fulfilling the path factor by accomplishing non-arising because of cutting away the foundation of the volition connected with the bad conduct of wrong livelihood which has arises through the seven courses of action in the two doors.>> ? more information ? In Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary.? pg 61 para 7 <<7? Right Livelihood is that by means of which one makes a living rightly; it is refraining from wrong livelihood.? By way of refraining from misconduct of body and speech as the basis of one's livelihood, it is sevenfold; alternatively by way of refraining from wrong livelihood by means of deceitful talk, etc is manifold.? Thse which also each threefold by way of [refraining from] an? opportunity gained, [refraining] because of undertaking [the precepts] and?[refraining] by cutting off the [defilements], are called the three refrainings because of refraining from the said kinds of misconduct.? The details of the three refraining from the commentary of Right Views.? <> ? ? Kind regards Ken O #107252 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:48 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! kenhowardau Hi Alex, ------------- > "In meditation one lets go of the complex world outside in order to reach the serene world inside. In all types of mysticism, in many traditions, this is known as the path to the pure and powerful mind. The experience of this pure mind, released from the world, is very wonderful and blissful." > --- >KH: Why not take heed of the Dhamma? It says there is no one - no >self - there are only the presently arisen namas and rupas. A: > There is no Self teaching there. Ajahn Brahm himself has stated somewhere that only nama reaches "jhana". No one (as in non-existent Self) does. Your question above is totally irrelevant. -------------- My question is relevant. Ajahn Brahm is describing a practice that is fundamentally different from the practice described in the Theradava texts. Only one practice can be right; all others must be wrong. Only one practice is consistent with the doctrine of anatta; all others contain atta-belief of some kind. If you look at AB's teaching you will see that he is thinking of you as a continuing entity. He is thinking of you as an an entity that is not enlightened now but will continue to a future time when it will be enlightened. On that basis, he is giving you a set of instructions to be followed. If you look at the Theravada texts you will find a practice that can only take place now, in the present moment. It is not directed at a continuing entity. Don't wait for some hypothetical future time when you are high on meditation, understand the way things are now. It's the only way. :-) Ken H #107253 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:29 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > My question is relevant. Ajahn Brahm is describing a practice What do you mean by practice? What isn't "a practice"? Why is studying and considering Dhamma better than letting go, nibbida, viraga, nirodha... >that is fundamentally different from the practice described in the >Theradava texts. Can you examine point by point? >Only one practice can be right; all others must be wrong. Right, The Noble Eightfold Path which includes Jhana. > > Only one practice is consistent with the doctrine of anatta; all others contain atta-belief of some kind. > > If you look at AB's teaching you will see that he is thinking of >you as a continuing entity. He is hard on Anatta and Nibbana being total cessation without any remainder. >He is thinking of you as an an entity that is not enlightened now >but will continue to a future time when it will be enlightened. Are you saying that Awakening is impossible? This is not Dhamma Or are you saying that we are all already enlightened? This is some Zen theory you have. > If you look at the Theravada texts you will find a practice that >can only take place now, in the present moment. Right, and Ajahn Brahm's first two steps are dealing with awareness of the present moment. > Don't wait for some hypothetical future time when you are high on >meditation, understand the way things are now. It's the only way. :-) And that is what Ajahn Brahm teaches. "Better than a hundred years lived without virtue, uncentered, is one day lived by a virtuous person absorbed in jhana.And better than a hundred years lived undiscerning, uncentered,is one day lived by a discerning person absorbed in jhana." - Dhp VIII Sahassavagga Thousands 110-115 1) Noble 8Fold path is required for Awakening (DN16) 2) Samma-Samadhi is part of it (MN141) 3) Samma-Samadhi is defined as the Jhanas (mn141) Thus, verily, monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the no-whither way. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo AN6.64 4) Jhana IS the path to awakening MN36 Jhana Leads to 4 fruits: From Stream to Arhatship. (DN29) With metta, Alex #107254 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:52 am Subject: Visiting the historical sites of the Buddha thomaslaw03 Dear Buddhist friends, Could anyone instruct me how to (from Australia) books accommodations and transportations for independently visiting the major sites (in Nepal and India) of the historical Buddha? I am unable to do so completely through the Internet. So far, I think one has to go to India (or Nepal) first, and then from there to make bookings, arrangements, for the pilgrimage tours? But this way of visiting the sites could be very uncertain and risky. Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Thomas Law #107255 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ptaus1 Hi KenH, KenO, Thanks for your comments. > KH: The way it usually seems to me is: if dhammas were equal to illusory concepts then then the apparent existence (concept) of self would still not be replaced by anything definite. The door would remain open to the possibility of an eternal soul. pt: This is an interesting observation that I haven't considered before - it seems to connect annihilationism and eternalism together, though I'm not quite sure I understand how can an eternal soul exist if everything is considered illusory in the first place, because that would then make the soul illusory as well. > > pt: Footnote 1 (from the Saddhammappakaasini i, the Commentary to the Pa.tisambhidamagga):... > KO: this explanation by the void of individual essence is in that its essence is independent and it can arise on its own. Even though dhamma has its own characteristics, it cannot arise on its own or by its own essence because its arisen depends on conditions. Just like feeling feels can only arise when citta arise, feelings feel cannot arise on its own even though its characertistics can be perceived. pt: I think that's how I understand the commentary quote as well - i.e. it deals with conditionality, hence my initial assumption that the meaning of the term "existence" or sabhava for a dhamma cannot be taken further than including conditionality and characteristics (individual and general). Adding something more than that would be leaning towards eternalism, while less than that (like denying individual characteristics) would be leaning towards annihilationism. Best wishes pt #107256 From: Vince Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! cerovzt@... truth_aerator wrote: > The experience of this pure mind, released from the world, is very > wonderful and blissful. at least I think when one believes the release of suffering can be inside in front the outside, or also outside in front the inside, in both cases this is a wrong interpretation of the Buddha teaching. If we can remember, Buddha was not fully comfortable with the wordly live neither with his last master, despite his high consideration on him. Buddhism is not Brahmanism neither Theism, despite they can be very respectable. Word "Brahmacariya" was a Buddhist term used by Buddha to identify the holy life. This word is not Buddhist but it comes from "carati" and Brahma: "walking in the world by the hand of Brahma". Buddha used this old word to give a new and complete sense according the Dhamma. This sense can be partially checked when we read the relation of Buddha with Brahma. In the Suttas we find the Great Brahma, who is defined as the all-seeing, maker and creator, Ruler and appointer, etc... With this Brahma, Buddha had an special and subtile relation, and I think one must be very humble in focusing such things because normally they are beyond our reach. However, a main difference of Buddhism remains in a liberation which appears among the phenomenical world. Therefore this is not a mysticism. Buddha was not a mystic. Nibbana is not inside or outside, neither it is an special state to leave the world or the mind. This is freedom of the slavery of a dynamic process from where we build the inside and the outside, me and others, my mind and the world. In that sense, a person can realize nibbana by contemplating the nature of that process in his inner or outer ambit of. But in any case, such person must have the realization that there are not two ambits as "my mind" and the world. Mind lack of any substance and also world lacks of it. As both lacks of any substance, Who can trace those borders except the self when using "me" and "mine"? best Vince. #107257 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:54 am Subject: Re-Uniting is Bak Poya Day! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? The Bak Poya day is this full-moon of April! This holy day celebrates that the Buddha visits Ceylon for the second time to reconcile two local chiefs Mahodara and Cu-lodara , uncle & nephew, who had fallen into war threatening hostility about a throne beset with Jewels... The story shows the Buddha as top diplomat & is given in full below! On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed white-clothed clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first 3 times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in/to this world! The journey towards Nibba-na: The Deathless is started! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... <...> Reuniting those divided, by bringing Harmony: Now the most compassionate Teacher, the Conqueror, rejoicing in the salvation of the whole world, when dwelling at Jetavana in the fifth year of his Buddhahood, saw that war, caused by a gem beset throne, was like to come to pass between the nagas Mahodara and Cu-lodara , uncle and nephew and their followers! The SamBuddha , then on the uposatha day of the dark half of the month Citta, in the early morning, took his sacred alms bowl and his robes, and, out of compassion for the nagas , sought the Nagadipa . At that time the same naga Mahodara was then king, gifted with miraculous powers, in a nagas kingdom in the ocean, which covered half a 1000 yojanas. His younger sister had been given in marriage to the naga king on the Kannavaddhamana mountain; her son was Cu-lodara . His mother's father had given to his mother a splendid throne of jewels, then the naga had died and therefore was this war between nephew & uncle threatening! The nagas of the mountains were also armed with many miraculous powers. The deva Samiddhisumana took his rajayatana tree standing in Jetavana , his own fair habitation, holding it like a parasol over the Conqueror, he, with the Teachers leave, attended him to that spot where he had formerly dwelt. That very deva had been, in his latest birth, a man in Nagadipa . On the very spot where thereafter the rajayatana tree stood, he had seen PaccekaBuddhas taking their meal. And at the sight his heart was glad & he offered branches to cleanse their alms bowls. Therefore he was reborn in that very same tree in the pleasant Jetavana garden, outside of the gate rampart. The God of all gods saw in this an advantage for that deva, and, for the sake of the good which should spring therefrom for Ceylon, he brought him there together with his tree. Hovering there in midair above the battlefield, the Master, who drives away spiritual darkness, called forth dreadful darkness over the nagas! Then comforting those who were distressed by terror he once again spread light abroad. When they saw the Blessed One, they joyfully did reverence to the Masters feet. Then the Vanquisher preached to them the Dhamma that makes concord, & both nagas gladly gave up the throne to the Sage. When the Master, having alighted on the earth, had taken his place on a seat there, and had been refreshed with celestial food and drink served by the naga kings, he, the Lord, established in the three refuges and in the 8 moral precepts eighty kotis of snake-spirits, dwellers in the ocean and on the mainland. The nagaking Maniakkhika of Kalya-ni , maternal uncle to this naga Mahodara , who had come there to take part in the battle, and who before, at the Buddhas first coming, having heard the true Dhamma preached, had become established in the 3 refuges & in the moral duties, prayed now to the Tathagata: Great is the compassion that you have shown us here, Master! Had you not appeared we had all been consumed to ashes. May your compassion yet settle also and especially on me, you who are rich in friendly loving kindness, please peerless one come again back here to my home country. When the Lord had consented by his silence to return, then he planted the rajayatana tree on that very spot as a sacred memorial, & the Lord of the Worlds gave over the rajayatana tree & the precious throne seat to the naga kings to do homage thereto: In remembrance that I have used these do homage to them naga kings! This, well beloved, will bring to pass many blessings & happiness to you for a long time! When the Blessed One had uttered this and other exhortations to the nagas, he, compassionate saviour of the entire world, returned to the Jetavana monastery. Here ends the explanation of the Visit to Nagadipa . Source: Mahavamsa I:44. The Great Chronicle of Ceylon. Translated. By Wilhelm Geiger 1912; reprinted in 1980. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=130010I Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sama-hita _/\_ Sri Bak Poya Day! #107258 From: si-la-nanda Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:46 am Subject: Re: In the future, the world system will come to an end ... silananda_t Hi Dhammafarers, 2012 the movie, tells of the world coming to an end that year. And if some of us were to be convinced, please have a look at what the Buddha had said about this in the Gaddula?Baddha?Sutta. mahakaruna, silananda Then The Buddha explains how, in the future, the world system will come to an end. *THERE WILL COME A TIME, BHIKKHUS * First the great ocean dries up: There will come a time, bhikkhus, when the great ocean dries up, evaporates, and is no more. In the distant future the world will be destroyed in one of three ways: destroyed by fire, by water or by wind.20 Here, The Buddha describes what happens when the world is destroyed by fire. First of all, a hundred thousand years beforehand, certain sky-devas will appear before people with dishevelled hair, and pitiful faces, wiping their tears with their hands.22 They will announce the end of the world, and urge people to develop the four divine abidings (cattaro brahma?vihara): loving-kindness (metta), compassion (karu8a), sympathetic joy (mudita) and equanimity (upekkha) up to jhana. And they will advise people to look after their parents, and to honour their elders. Most people will take these words to heart, and practise lovingkindness towards each other, and in other ways accomplish wholesome kamma. Those who are able will develop jhana. Those who are unable to develop jhana will, because of their past wholesome kamma, be reborn in the deva world: as devas, they will develop jhana. Dependent on ignorance and craving, the kammic potency (kamma satti) of their jhana causes all these beings to be reborn in the Brahma world. After a long period, a great cloud appears, and heavy rain falls throughout the hundred thousand million world spheres. People sow crops, but when the crops have grown high enough for an ox to graze, the rain stops.24 With no more rain, all plants dry up and are no more, and there is soon famine. Human beings die, and also earth devas (bhumma?deva), for they live on flowers and fruits. Owing to their past wholesome kamma, they are reborn in the deva world, and as devas they develop kasina jhana. Again, dependent on ignorance and craving, the kammic potency of their jhana causes them to be reborn in the Brahma world. After a long time, the water in the world begins to evaporate, and fish, turtles and other creatures that live in water die. Owing to their past wholesome kamma, also they are reborn in the deva world, where they as devas develop jhana. Dependent on ignorance and craving, the kammic potency of their jhana causes them to be reborn in the Brahma world. According to a law of nature, also the beings in hell escape from hell and are reborn in the human world. They develop loving-kindness, and are reborn in the deva world, where they as devas develop jhana. Dependent on ignorance and craving, the kammic potency of their jhana causes them to be reborn in the Brahma world. But the beings who were reborn in hell as a result of persistent wrong views do not escape: dependent on ignorance and craving, the kammic potency of their persistent wrong view causes them to be reborn in a world-interstice hell (lok?antarika?niraya): one of the hells situated in the space between world systems.27 Thus, even though the world system is coming to an end, the continued rushing on and running about of beings does not come to an end. The Buddha explains: Not even then, bhikkhus, is the suffering of ignorance-hindered beings fettered by craving (who rush on and run about) brought to an end, I declare. After a long period without rain, by the time all beings have been reborn elsewhere, a second sun appears. And, as one sun sets, the other rises, so there is no more telling night from day: the world is continuously scorched by the heat of the two suns. Streams and smaller rivers dry up. After yet another very long period, a third sun appears, and now also the great rivers dry up. Then, after yet another very long period, a fourth sunappears, and the great lakes that were the source of the great rivers also dry up. Again, after yet another very long period, a fifth sun appears, and also the seas dry up, so that there is not enough water left to wet the joint of a finger. Again, after yet another very long period, a sixth sun appears, and now the great Mount Sineru33 and the very earth itself begin to burn, and give off clouds of smoke. Eventually, after yet another very long period, a seventh sun appears, and now all bursts into flames, into one sheet of flame. Great Mount Sineru and the earth burn up and disintegrate, and powerful winds carry the fire right up to the Brahma worlds. And just as burning ghee or oil leave no ashes, so the burning Mount Sineru and earth leave no ashes either. Even so, explains The Buddha, there is no end to the rushing on and running about of beings in the round of rebirth: There will come a time, bhikkhus, when Sineru, king of mountains, is burned, destroyed, and is no more. Not even then, bhikkhus, is the suffering of ignorance-hindered beings fettered by craving (who rush on and run about) brought to an end, I declare. There will come a time, bhikkhus, when the great earth, is burned, destroyed, and is no more. Not even then, bhikkhus, is the suffering of ignorance-hindered beings fettered by craving (who rush on and run about) brought to an end, I declare. Having explained how beings continue to rush on and run about in the round of rebirth, The Buddha then discusses why they do so ..... (and the saga continues ...) Gaddula?Baddha?Sutta Source : p24 of 504 The Workings of Kamma by Pa Auk Sayadaw #107259 From: "Mike" Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:58 am Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas mikenz66 Jon, and others. Thanks for the replies, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Mike > > (107217) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > Dear DSG, > > > > This question has puzzled me for some time. If I look at lists of cetasikas (such as on page 79 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Ed Bhikkhu Bodhi), most of them are "simple", and seem to realistically fit into a momentary model of momentary cittas (e.g. perception, energy, etc). > > > > However, some seem much more complex, for example: > > (49) Right Livelihood, which comes up in II.6 and is described in the guide as: > > "Samma-ajiva: Right livelihood is the deliberate abstinence from wrong livelihood, such as dealing in poisons, intoxicants, weapons, slaves, or animals for slaughter." > > > > I find it hard to reconcile such a description with the model of momentary citta, since it seems to me that "abstaining from ..." involves a whole series of cittas. How can it be a characteristic of an individual citta? Presumably I'm muddled, and I'd appreciate some help. > > > > Mike > > All conventional situations involve a series of cittas. Within a given series of cittas, different functions are being performed at different moments of consciousness. In the case of abstaining from akusala, one of those functions has to be restraint, since without cittas performing this function there would be no abstaining. > > Hoping this makes sense. > > Jon > So would it be correct to say that in the case of right livelihood there are a long series of cittas arising, conditioned by previous ones, that have this cetasika? But now I'm perhaps getting more confused, since you say "conventional situations", and the "right livelihood" cetasika seems dangerously "conventional" or "conceptual". Mike #107260 From: "Mike" Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:00 am Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas mikenz66 Hi Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Mike, > > > This question has puzzled me for some time. If I look at lists of cetasikas (such as on page 79 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Ed Bhikkhu Bodhi), most of them are "simple", and seem to realistically fit into a momentary model of momentary cittas (e.g. perception, energy, etc). > > > > However, some seem much more complex, for example: > > (49) Right Livelihood, which comes up in II.6 and is described in the guide as: > > "Samma-ajiva: Right livelihood is the deliberate abstinence from wrong livelihood, such as dealing in poisons, intoxicants, weapons, slaves, or animals for slaughter." > > > > I find it hard to reconcile such a description with the model of momentary citta, since it seems to me that "abstaining from ..." involves a whole series of cittas. How can it be a characteristic of an individual citta? Presumably I'm muddled, and I'd appreciate some help. > > L: maybe it supports experiencing. than this is a reality that is right livelihood. > > Can you quote the CMA on right livelihood? Mike: What I wrote above is basically all there was in the CMA. > L: I think samma-ajiva is not easy to grasp. This is a reality not a concept, I think. Mike: Thanks. Something to think about... Mike #107261 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visiting the historical sites of the Buddha nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 28-apr-2010, om 3:52 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > So far, I think one has to go to India (or Nepal) first, and then > from there to make bookings, arrangements, for the pilgrimage > tours? But this way of visiting the sites could be very uncertain > and risky. ------ N: I am just inquiring about the person who arranged this for us many, many times. Nina. #107262 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Complex Cetasikas nilovg Dear Mike and Lukas, Op 28-apr-2010, om 8:00 heeft Mike het volgende geschreven: > L: I think samma-ajiva is not easy to grasp. This is a reality not > a concept, I think. > > Mike: Thanks. Something to think about... ------ N: It is abstention from wrong speech and wrong action with regard to our livelihood. Like surfing on Internet when it is office time. As Jon said, a situation consists of many discrete moments. Nina. #107263 From: si-la-nanda Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:32 am Subject: Retreat Information at Pa Auk Latvia ... silananda_t Dear Dhammafarers, For you and your sharing with those who you think are in a better position to attend or assist. mahakaruna, silananda ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Pa Auk Latvia International Date: Apr 28, 2010 12:12 AM Subject: Retreat Information To: maha1@... Dear Dhamma Friends, We are very happy to announce that from *13th June till 11th July* this year the newly established Pa Auk Latvia International Meditation Centre will host its first retreat. The location is situated in a National Biosphere Reservation Area in Rujiena district, on 1000 ha of land kindly donated by one of our members and offers suitable conditions for meditation afar from civil establishments and other distracting factors. The land was blessed by the Most Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw during his visit to Latvia in 2009. We express our deepest thankfulness to Venerable U Revata, a student of Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw and an esteemed teacher at Pa-Auk Forest Monastery in Burma (Myanmar), who honours the project by conducting this retreat. You are welcome to join for meditating in clean environment and living in a very natural way close to the four elements of Earth, Water, Fire and Wind. Since the project is at the very beginning the retreat will be held in close touch with nature. However basic outdoor facilities for meditation and dining area as well as personal hygiene facilities will be provided. We would like meditators to bring their own outdoor living facilities (tents). It is to be mentioned that the ground is ample enough to support a large amount of visitors. So everyone is welcome! To find more information about the retreat (schedule, application etc.) please visit www.paauk-latvia.org or send us a request to info@... If you want to support the retreat or the construction of the Centre you are most welcome to contact us by e-mail address mentioned above. We?ll appreciate a lot if you spread the news about a coming retreat further in the Buddhist society. May you all be well and happy and attain Nibbana! With Metta, Management Committee Pa Auk Latvia International Meditation Centre #107264 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:35 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + jonoabb Hi Alex (107245) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > If one cannot temporary let go of hindrances, then what makes you think that you can permanently cut them off? > =============== There is 'letting go' of akusala every time there is kusala citta. As regards the temporary suppression of hindrances by jhana citta, that is not a prerequisite for the development of insight. It is developed insight that eventually eradicates akusala (at the 4 moments of path consciousness). > =============== > A simile of a carpenter making a fine object. > > You chops a tree with a chainsaw. Then you cut the log with a smaller saw into a big rough piece . Then with more refined instruments you cut it into a proper shape. Sanding comes next with progressively finer and finer sand paper. Eventually you polish the piece with oil and wax. > > Some people think that that can go strait to the sanding to make a fine miniature wooden statue out of a tree, or to use only chainsaw for all stages. Obviously it will not work. > > This is how seem to approach the Dhamma. They try to use sandpaper to make a fine wooden statue out of a coarse tree... Or trying to get to the top of a staircase by jumping over intermediate steps... Or trying to build a 2nd floor without making a stable foundation first.... > =============== Yes, that is how you understand the teachings, namely that the development of insight cannot begin unless and until there has first been the development of other kusala to a certain level. To my understanding, however, there can be the beginning of the development of panna (at an intellectual level, for example) regardless of the level of attainment of other kinds of kusala including, in particular, samatha. Jon #107265 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:38 pm Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas jonoabb Hi Mike Thanks for the reply. (Going back to something in your original post first, then on to this one) (107259) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > "Samma-ajiva: Right livelihood is the deliberate abstinence from wrong livelihood, such as dealing in poisons, intoxicants, weapons, slaves, or animals for slaughter." > > > > > > I find it hard to reconcile such a description with the model of momentary citta, since it seems to me that "abstaining from ..." involves a whole series of cittas. > =============== This definition may seem to suggest that right livelihood is present as long as one does not take up one those listed activities as an occupation. However, I don't think that's what is meant. What is being referred to, as I understand it, is the avoidance of any of those activities in the course of one's livelihood (whatever that may be). In addition, the restraint that is right livelihood is present whenever there is the kusala avoidance of any breach of a precept (stealing, lying, etc) in the course of one's livelihood. > =============== > So would it be correct to say that in the case of right livelihood there are a long series of cittas arising, conditioned by previous ones, that have this cetasika? > =============== If we are referring to an instance of, for example, kusala restraint from speaking falsely in the course of one's livelihood, then yes I would assume there would be a number of cittas in successive series that were accompanied by this particular cetasika. > =============== > But now I'm perhaps getting more confused, since you say "conventional situations", and the "right livelihood" cetasika seems dangerously "conventional" or "conceptual". > =============== It can be confusing. In fact, 'right livelihood' is just a name. The cetasika of this name is just as momentary as any other cetasika ;-)) Jon #107266 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sukinderpal HI Ken, This has gotten too long. If I don't do some major snipping, it would get really bad. ;-) ======== >Sukin: I go to the foundation to "discuss". I don't say that there can't be Right Understanding "now". > >And the question is not whether those people in ancient times went to secluded places, but that they did this as a result of following methods / instructions or was it due to their own accumulated understanding. This is why I was pointing out earlier that reading about the behavior of the monks of those times and the danger of reducing what they did to methods which other people can follow. KO: So is there a method or not in ancient times. You have yet answer this questions. Also are you saying breathing 1 to 10 is not a method, then you tell me what it is. Will one with accumulated understanding will straighaway will know oh i have to do this 1 to 10 without being taught or this is taught by another ancient masters. S: First of all, I think there is a misunderstanding. My thoughts do not imply that someone arrives at a need to count 1 to 10 at some point in their development of samatha. Counting is just what some people do as part of how they think about things, similarly with thoughts about long and short breath. I don't think the texts are prescribing any such thinking, just that some people will end up counting breaths and / or thinking in terms of short and long breaths at some point in their development does not mean that others should try to do the same. To think otherwise sounds to me like wrong view associated with the tendency to rite and ritual. Thinking happens all the time, so counting etc. does not prove that someone who counts has any less or more panna. However when someone believes that by counting he is developing more calm, this is wrong understanding. And although it may be true that breath becomes longer as calm increases and hence the person will know to distinguish long from short breaths, it does not follow that one will be lead by such thoughts. There is no efficacy in concepts as Ken H. would say, and the object of panna in samatha development is the difference between kusala and akusala citta. And when it comes to 'concentration', isn't it the nimita rather than the number or the length of breath which is the object of consideration? I've already answered, but I'll repeat here and based on the above kind of reasoning, that "no, the ancients did not prescribe any methods". =========== <…> >> KO: so is rites and ritual wrong by itself? > >Sukin: To me it is meaningless to call an activity 'rite and ritual' if no wrong view is involved. KO: Are Vinaya rules? There are descriptions of disciples going round the shrine three times to pay respects, so are these call rituals or rite. S: I prefer to think these as being more or less symbolic and as reminders, both for the person who is involved in the kind of activity as well as for the other monks around. When breaking any of the rules and being obliged to do anything in response, the person would do so with sati and respect towards the Triple Gem inspiring others to the same. In other words, the rules are rules not with any efficacy in conditioning kusala cittas, but work as reminder for all involved about the harm of akusala, the need to develop kusala most particularly wisdom and reflecting the overall value of the Dhamma. Besides, ideally a monk is one who more than the layperson, sees fault in even slight akusala and this requires wisdom. Therefore to think that rules are there for him to follow regardless is I believe not giving him enough credit. ======== <…> >Sukin: All there is in reality are just conditioned dhammas and anatta is their characteristic. Methods imply that certain dhammas can be made to arise by thinking certain thoughts. This disregards the fact of conditionality, particularly that of the roots, and how any of them arise by natural decisive support condition rather than by intention. KO: What do you mean by certain thoughts. You mean you read a book is not due to intention arise or panna can intent. S: a.) "I am going to open DSG where Dhamma is discussed *in order to read some posts*." b.) "I am going to reflect systematically on the 32 parts sitting in a quiet place, *in order to develop samatha*." Are these two thoughts of the same type? The first is definitely not a result of following a method. The second on the other hand as you say, is. Reading posts on DSG reflects an interest conditioned by panna of any level starting with a beginner to that of the enlightened. To sit with the thought to concentrate on any meditation subject if this is to be effective, must be with some minimum level of panna. Reading the Dhamma can be approached with wrong view, but only when the thoughts are along similar lines as that of the 'meditator' above, otherwise there is likely at most only attachment. However here, the range of wisdom beginning with Pariyatti is such that one could go away benefiting in accordance to one's level of understanding. This is not the case with the latter where the only correct approach is one that of a particular level / kind of understanding about the object, otherwise it will only be wrong and wrong. And when it comes to the level of panna which is enough for the particular meditation subject, does this need to be preceded by such thoughts as 'how to' and 'methods'? Would not the panna which understands the subject be leading the way? ========== >Besides, if any kusala arisen now was not by any intention, let alone following a method, why the sudden requirement for some method at a later stage? I'd like to hear your reasoning with regard to this. KO: Because method is to prevent unprofitable thoughts from arising. Please read the commentary to discursive thoughts Vitakka-Santhana Sutta which could be found in access to insight website. S: Yes, I was thinking about this Sutta in my last post. In summary this is what the Sutta is saying: ""Five things should be reflected on from time to time, by the bhikkhu who is intent on the higher consciousness. What five?" When evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion arise in a bhikkhu through reflection on an adventitious object, he should, (in order to get rid of that)….. 1. Reflect on a different object which is connected with skill… 2. Ponder on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts thus: Truly these thoughts of mine are unskillful, blameworthy…… 3. Endeavor to be without attention and reflection… 4. Reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts…. 5. With clenched teeth and the tongue pressing on the palate, restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind….. Ken, do you not from time to time find yourself reacting in one of these five ways or some version of it? Surely you weren't following a method and indeed it wasn't a matter of 2. following from 1. and 3. from 2. and so on…Also I'm sure you would agree that in each of these instances, some level of understanding arose preceding the particular reaction, so why would you read 'method' into all this? ========== <…> >Sukin: Well from my perspective it is you who appears to be misunderstanding all this. The difference between samatha and vipassana is such that only the latter is the understanding leading to insight which the former can never do. The 32 parts for example, are concepts and concepts can never be the object of insight though they can very well be a condition for calm. >True while contemplating any of the 32 parts, there are realities arising and falling away just as they do now when reading and typing. The realities are however nama and rupa, and only these can be the object of the development of wisdom capable of leading to insight. And yes, this is intellectual understanding but the kind which I believe is in line with the way things are. The concepts are concepts about that which really exists, not about that which does not. KO: You mean Buddha never teach samatha bhavana at all. What Visud written is all a lie. Who say concepts cannot lead to insight, pse read the commentaries of satipatthana, it is concept of breathing that reach jhanas which become basis of insight and not breathing as nama and rupa. S: The Buddha never downplayed the value of samatha, neither am I doing this. But samatha is not the path out of samsara, only Vipassana is. The Buddha came to be in order to lead all beings out of samsara, samatha bhavana even of the level of Jhana is very much still the stuff of samsara. Concepts can by NDSC, cause any level of wisdom to arise, but it can never be the object of satipatthana, let alone vipassana because it does not exhibit any characteristic, including that of anatta. ========= <…> >Sukin: :-) >First, there is no such thing as 'choice' in reality. We can talk about choice conventionally, but this is because at those times our concern is not in describing or understanding reality, and of course it is even convenient to talk in such terms at times. For example, I would be telling you that I choose to listen to A. Sujin and not other teachers. You'd understand this as being a statement about the correctness of her teaching and not bother to question me about whether I really believed that I could actually choose to listen etc. In deed I do not go to listen involved with thoughts about choice even in the conventional sense (which btw, there has been no discussion since when Sarah and Jon were here :-(. ). But even if I did have such thoughts as choosing between this and that, it could only be an overall impression, unlike what must necessarily be involved in choosing between different meditation subjects, don't you think? KO: if the paramtha dhamma dont exist, what condition the interest, the effort, the will to listen, panna alone? Why Sarah, Jon, Ken H cannot answer this question because simply, if there is no choice, why did you select a teacher? panna alone? S: The need for all those other cetasikas such as cetana, chanda, vitakka and so on, does not make a case for the existence of 'choice'. Neither is highlighting Panna a denial of conventional activity. Kamma through mind or through speech and body is still kamma, a mental reality, and a potential object of insight. By comparison any conventional action manifested, this being only concept, can never be the object of the kind of wisdom. ========== >A meditation subject has very direct relevance to the state of mind which considers it such that one either has right understanding or else wrong understanding about it. The requirement for precision is such that to even thinking to pick one out is reflection of wavering and therefore can't be right. Besides, the important thing is that while the former allows for understanding to arise at anytime in between, to think that similarly can happen with the latter while still holding on to the idea seems like a contradiction. KO: who say those who practise meditation they dont practise understanding of dhamma in their daily lives, you should read clear comprehension in the commentary of satipatthana. S: The contradiction arises from the very fact of differentiating time for 'practice' from 'daily life'. Those during the Buddha's time who developed correctly, their sitting under the tree etc. *was part of their daily life*! They understood that this activity was conditioned as much as when they ate, walked or took a bath. ========= ><….> >> KO: that is your preference, Buddha never said development of enlightement is purely based on paramatha dhammas, it can be based on concepts and you also start from concepts even in understanding dhamma now. You can ask without expectation, why can't other people ask without expectation. Again isn't it double standard? Also did you choose to listen to her? Isn't that that act and concentrate to listen. Can you listen without concentration? > >Sukin: An understanding based on conventional examples would be kusala of the level of samatha, perhaps such is what is involved in Dhammanusati, but I'm not sure. However Pariyatti understanding I believe, which is precursor to Patipatti and Pativedha, this must be about paramattha dhammas. It is consideration *in the moment* about a reality, qualifying it as being that which directly conforms to panna of the level which is satipatthana and that of vipassana. So for anyone who hears about conventional examples and feel subsequently inspired, they'd need to have right understanding about paramattha dhammas before there can be any satipatthana. KO: definitely there must pariyatti, everyone starts from there and it is conventional, without it could you do patipatti and pativedha. So say satipatthana is restricted to paramatha dhamma that is only applicable on vipassana nana and not before. S: This is another point that you make which I don't understand. It sounds to me like you are saying that because Pariyatti has concept as object and Satipatthana the nimita of a reality, that these have more in common with Samatha Bhavana than they do Pativedha, hence no reason to talk in favor of the one over the other. But what about the associated panna, isn't it all about the difference in the 'understanding'? Pariyatti *understands* about nama and rupa, about conditionality and anatta, whereas samatha even of Jhana level, does not. Indeed it is the kind of understanding which sees the distinction between reality and concept even if it is only in principle, which causes one not to be fooled into mistaking intellectual understanding for the direct one. A Jhana practitioner on the other hand, can very well be fooled into believing what is not final release for final release. ========== <…> >Sukin: You mean concepts have the characteristic of anatta? >Yes, you can reflect conceptually about anatta, but 'not mine, not I and not myself' does not come from reasoning alone, but from a good deal of direct understanding. KO: definitely it is from panna but the object is concept, panan can arise with any objects due to mental door process. It is not restricted to just nama and rupa. S: What does panna of Pariyatti and Patipatti understand about a concept? >========= <…> >Sukin: I'm not dismissing the Visud. but only interpreting what's written there in a way which is consistent with my understanding of anatta and conditionality and how the development of both samatha and vipassana must necessarily proceed. > KO: So is there a meditation or not S: As an instance of sati and panna either of the level of samatha or vipassana, yes. As an activity hence method to follow, no. ======== >> KO: That is really a total disregard to the what is taught by Buddhism, dont forget Buddha taught meditation also. > >Sukin: The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths. The fourth is the Path led by Right Understanding. > KO: Definitely Buddha taught about 4NT, did Buddha said there is no meditation. S: Because he did teach the 4NT, this means that he did not teach any meditation as in 'activity' or 'method'. ;-) ========= <…> >Sukin: I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that the particular example from the Suttas I gave should be interpreted in the same way as you interpret what is written in the Visud. namely as method to follow? KO: It is not bitting their tongue, it is clenching their teeth, placing their tongue and pressing on the patate. that is for placing a strong kusala thought to replace the aksuala thoughts under the commentary of the Vitakka-Santhana Sutta S: You mean if I bit my tongue it would be akusala, but if I place it and press the palate it would be kusala? ;-) ============ <…> >Sukin: Are you saying that I must have read about this in the Visud. or some other text and have followed the prescription? ;-) > KO: Nope, eveyone got their own incliination so why meditation is wrong whiile yours is right. S: We've been discussing whether there is method or not, but now you appeal to natural inclination. :-/ Ken, being still very behind in my reading, I discover that you've been discussing the same thing with others such as Sarah, Scott and Ken H. I've come to see that points I make now have been made by them before and it feels kind of odd. What I will now do is just keep reading all those discussions and if I think I can say anything new, I'll then write another response. Until then please allow me to keep out of this discussion. Thanks. Metta, Sukinder #107267 From: Ken O Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sukin I like to say this first I show the written text yet people still insist the texts are not interpreted in this way. On one hand we claim we protect and uphold the commentaries yet when the Abhidhamma and the commentaries show otherwise, we said it is not interpretated in this way, isnt that the same as what other claims like B Bodhi personal notes. To protect Abhidhamma and the commentary is to remain true to the text and not to anyone's understanding. We who fervently support them yet I felt we are the one who really destroying them by not following what are written in the texts and insist it is base on ones interpretation. That really sadden me, even though it is dosa. > >S: First of all, I think there is a misunderstanding. My thoughts do not >imply that someone arrives at a need to count 1 to 10 at some point in >their development of samatha. Counting is just what some people do as >part of how they think about things, similarly with thoughts about long >and short breath. I don't think the texts are prescribing any such >thinking, just that some people will end up counting breaths and / or >thinking in terms of short and long breaths at some point in their >development does not mean that others should try to do the same. To >think otherwise sounds to me like wrong view associated with the >tendency to rite and ritual. > KO: Nope that is what written in the text, a clear instruction, a prescribe action and a method. It is not just counting one to ten, they are also others like 32 parts, collection of virtues etc. >Thinking happens all the time, so counting etc. does not prove that >someone who counts has any less or more panna. However when someone >believes that by counting he is developing more calm, this is wrong >understanding. And although it may be true that breath becomes longer as >calm increases and hence the person will know to distinguish long from >short breaths, it does not follow that one will be lead by such >thoughts. There is no efficacy in concepts as Ken H. would say, and the >object of panna in samatha development is the difference between kusala >and akusala citta. And when it comes to 'concentration', isn't it the >nimita rather than the number or the length of breath which is the >object of consideration? >I've already answered, but I'll repeat here and based on the above kind >of reasoning, that "no, the ancients did not prescribe any methods". KO: there is no efficiency on concepts does that mean it cannot condiition panna. A dying person or the disapearance of a dew could condition panna. Does panna think "oh this is a concept" and panna deccide that it cannot develop understanding. It is not whether the object is concept or not concept, it is the understanding of the object in the mind that develop understanding. A concept is a nimitta, presently what you understand of nama and rupa are also nimitta. So do you think you are doing paramatha now or it i just a concept of what is real. Ok I give you a commentary quote. If you think it is not a concept and not a method, you give me a commentary quote on the subject matter Refer to Commentary to Vitakka-Santhana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel021.html <> <> >> >>Sukin: To me it is meaningless to call an activity 'rite and ritual' >if no wrong view is involved. KO: Sure then why did the disciples have go round the shrine three times. > >S: I prefer to think these as being more or less symbolic and as >reminders, both for the person who is involved in the kind of activity >as well as for the other monks around. When breaking any of the rules >and being obliged to do anything in response, the person would do so >with sati and respect towards the Triple Gem inspiring others to the >same. In other words, the rules are rules not with any efficacy in >conditioning kusala cittas, but work as reminder for all involved about >the harm of akusala, the need to develop kusala most particularly wisdom >and reflecting the overall value of the Dhamma. >Besides, ideally a monk is one who more than the layperson, sees fault >in even slight akusala and this requires wisdom. Therefore to think that >rules are there for him to follow regardless is I believe not giving him >enough credit. > KO: So they are rules or not. Dont need to explain what are the rule for because one can get it from the texts. \> >KO: What do you mean by certain thoughts. You mean you read a book is >not due to intention arise or panna can intent. > >S: a.) "I am going to open DSG where Dhamma is discussed *in order to >read some posts*." >b.) "I am going to reflect systematically on the 32 parts sitting >in a quiet place, *in order to develop samatha*." >Are these two thoughts of the same type? >The first is definitely not a result of following a method. The second >on the other hand as you say, is. >Reading posts on DSG reflects an interest conditioned by panna of any >level starting with a beginner to that of the enlightened. To sit with >the thought to concentrate on any meditation subject if this is to be >effective, must be with some minimum level of panna. Reading the Dhamma >can be approached with wrong view, but only when the thoughts are along >similar lines as that of the 'meditator' above, otherwise there is >likely at most only attachment. However here, the range of wisdom >beginning with Pariyatti is such that one could go away benefiting in >accordance to one's level of understanding. This is not the case with >the latter where the only correct approach is one that of a particular >level / kind of understanding about the object, otherwise it will only >be wrong and wrong. > >And when it comes to the level of panna which is enough for the >particular meditation subject, does this need to be preceded by such >thoughts as 'how to' and 'methods'? Would not the panna which >understands the subject be leading the way? KO: you mean the characteristic of citta would be different or the cetasikas of cetana or vitakka is different from yours and theirs. If yours can be panna why cant theirs, again double standard. 32 parts are well recorded in the suttas and the Abhidhamma. if you think that is not developing panna, then why it has so many instances of references of developemnt. it is definitely concepts and not nama and rupa as long as vipassanana is not obtained. If there is no how to, why do you go and listen to dhamma. If there is no method, why do you repeating you behaviour to go to foundation to listen to dhamma. >S: Yes, I was thinking about this Sutta in my last post. >In summary this is what the Sutta is saying: > >""Five things should be reflected on from time to time, by the bhikkhu >who is intent on the higher consciousness. What five?" > >When evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion >arise in a bhikkhu through reflection on an adventitious object, he >should, (in order to get rid of that)….. >1. Reflect on a different object which is connected with skill… >2. Ponder on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts thus: Truly these >thoughts of mine are unskillful, blameworthy…… >3. Endeavor to be without attention and reflection… >4. Reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful >thoughts…. >5. With clenched teeth and the tongue pressing on the palate, restrain, >subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind….. > >Ken, do you not from time to time find yourself reacting in one of these >five ways or some version of it? Surely you weren't following a method >and indeed it wasn't a matter of 2. following from 1. and 3. from 2. and >so on…Also I'm sure you would agree that in each of these instances, >some level of understanding arose preceding the particular reaction, so >why would you read 'method' into all this? KO: I have quoted above and I think there is no need for me to repeat that it is a method used as in 32 parts. > >S: The Buddha never downplayed the value of samatha, neither am I doing >this. But samatha is not the path out of samsara, only Vipassana is. The >Buddha came to be in order to lead all beings out of samsara, samatha >bhavana even of the level of Jhana is very much still the stuff of samsara. > >Concepts can by NDSC, cause any level of wisdom to arise, but it can >never be the object of satipatthana, let alone vipassana because it does >not exhibit any characteristic, including that of anatta. > KO: pse read the commentary to Satipatthana where vipassana nana only arise after emerging from breathing meditation where the object is breathing that is a concept <> > >S: The need for all those other cetasikas such as cetana, chanda, >vitakka and so on, does not make a case for the existence of 'choice'. >Neither is highlighting Panna a denial of conventional activity. Kamma >through mind or through speech and body is still kamma, a mental >reality, and a potential object of insight. By comparison any >conventional action manifested, this being only concept, can never be >the object of the kind of wisdom. KO: so what choose, you have yet make an answer, and if it cannot be object of wisdom, then you are telling me you can listen to words. I like to know who one could listen to words at paramatha level. > > >S: The contradiction arises from the very fact of differentiating time >for 'practice' from 'daily life'. Those during the Buddha's time who >developed correctly, their sitting under the tree etc. *was part of >their daily life*! They understood that this activity was conditioned as >much as when they ate, walked or took a bath. KO: you have answer my question ;-) so those practise meditaiton do understand dhamma > >S: This is another point that you make which I don't understand. >It sounds to me like you are saying that because Pariyatti has concept >as object and Satipatthana the nimita of a reality, that these have more >in common with Samatha Bhavana than they do Pativedha, hence no reason >to talk in favor of the one over the other. But what about the >associated panna, isn't it all about the difference in the >'understanding'? Pariyatti *understands* about nama and rupa, about >conditionality and anatta, whereas samatha even of Jhana level, does >not. Indeed it is the kind of understanding which sees the distinction >between reality and concept even if it is only in principle, which >causes one not to be fooled into mistaking intellectual understanding >for the direct one. A Jhana practitioner on the other hand, can very >well be fooled into believing what is not final release for final release. KO: are our understanding now conventional or direct level. What we sees now is also conventional, not paramtha level. So the seeing now is actually full of nimatas of the actually successive series of seeing cittas. Is that conventional or paramtha? So what is the difference between your series of cittas that understanding seeing (in conventional level) as anatta and the series of cittas that understand see being as anatta. It is the object that matters or the panna that matters to development. > > >S: What does panna of Pariyatti and Patipatti understand about a concept? > KO: anatta, anicca and dukkha. You mean a dying flower cannot condition the idea of anicaa and anatta. Who owns the flower, no one :-), no one conditon it to dies, it dies because of conditions, it is also impermanent >>========= >S: As an instance of sati and panna either of the level of samatha or >vipassana, yes. As an activity hence method to follow, no. > >S: Because he did teach the 4NT, this means that he did not teach any >meditation as in 'activity' or 'method'. ;-) KO: Pse show me which sutta that Buddha never taught meditaiton and what we all know about 32 parts are just an imagination and it is not a method > >S: You mean if I bit my tongue it would be akusala, but if I place it >and press the palate it would be kusala? ;-) > KO: any actions can be conditioned by panna >============ >S: We've been discussing whether there is method or not, but now you >appeal to natural inclination. :-/ > >Ken, being still very behind in my reading, I discover that you've been >discussing the same thing with others such as Sarah, Scott and Ken H. >I've come to see that points I make now have been made by them before >and it feels kind of odd. What I will now do is just keep reading all >those discussions and if I think I can say anything new, I'll then write >another response. Until then please allow me to keep out of this >discussion. KO: why because you think you are right and there is no other bhavana except vipassana :-). The others also cannot show me an ounce of text that there is no method, there is no actions or there is no choice, just tell me base on understanding. Everyone can claim that. I am serious about this discussion because I find there is a lack of understanding of how satipatthana is meant in the text and the way dhamma works. No offence to anyone but that is the truth, one claim one know about satipatthana but the text shows otherwise that concepts can be used for satipatthana. No one has yet produce a single text that say concepts cannot be satipatthana. The texts shows there is a choice, strive and action why because they are dhammas that cause their arisen, and of all, there are methods. Why because satipatthana does not choose what is the object that comes to be mind, it just penetrates the anatta meaning irregardless of the object that is present. Why because wrongness does not come from a method, but the akusala dhamma that arise with the method, smiliar to actions, rules and rituals. € Kind regards Ken O #107268 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:05 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >J: There is 'letting go' of akusala every time there is kusala citta. Right. > > As regards the temporary suppression of hindrances by jhana citta, >that is not a prerequisite for the development of insight. Perhaps you are right, for Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu individuals. But if one on this board isn't an Arahant or even a stream Enterer yet, then perhaps lack of knowledge is not an issue. Perhaps something more is required. It is developed insight that eventually eradicates akusala (at the 4 moments of path consciousness). > > > =============== > > A simile of a carpenter making a fine object. > > > > You chops a tree with a chainsaw. Then you cut the log with a smaller saw into a big rough piece . Then with more refined instruments you cut it into a proper shape. Sanding comes next with progressively finer and finer sand paper. Eventually you polish the piece with oil and wax. > > > > Some people think that that can go strait to the sanding to make a fine miniature wooden statue out of a tree, or to use only chainsaw for all stages. Obviously it will not work. > > > > This is how seem to approach the Dhamma. They try to use sandpaper to make a fine wooden statue out of a coarse tree... Or trying to get to the top of a staircase by jumping over intermediate steps... Or trying to build a 2nd floor without making a stable foundation first.... > > =============== > > Yes, that is how you understand the teachings, namely that the >development of insight cannot begin unless and until there has first >been the development of other kusala to a certain level. Yes and no. Hindrances (especially when strong) may need to be suppressed. > To my understanding, however, there can be the beginning of the >development of panna (at an intellectual level, for example) >regardless of the level of attainment of other kinds of kusala >including, in particular, samatha. > > Jon Sure there can be some development of Panna prior. But just like most people who can't be expert swimmers through intellectual study alone, same is here. Wet-practice may be required. If development of the path is natural and doesn't require effort as some say, then why aren't we already awakened? We've been countless amount of time in Samsara! If the development of the path requires "right" effort, then it cannot be "natural", otherwise we would naturally have gotten it a long time ago and realized Parinibbana. Just like any action that can be done with Self View, thinking and considering could be done with wrong view as well. Thinking itself isn't Maha Kusala. Jhana is. The more kusala accumulations one has, the better. Comparing Jhanic and ordinary experience can really show and shed light on the truth of dukkha. With metta, Alex #107269 From: "colette" Date: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:24 pm Subject: Re: Complex Cetasikas ksheri3 Hi Jon, <...>. I'm really heavy into the Madhyamika at the moment when I was struck by this post of yours. Your entire foundation and premise is built upon accepting the "construction" of a theoretical a RIGHT and a WRONG livelihood. <...> Lets take the first emporer of China, who, in his paranoia, surrounded himself with rules, with regulations, and with mercanaries, to protect him from the DEATH and MURDER that existed then as they exist today; how is it wrong, THEN, to cling to "safety" as a means of life, existance? I know there are people out there, in this world, that would like to see me dead or see me as a slave without a mind of my own, will the existance of a group of mercanaries employed to protect me, will their existance negate or stop, cease, the DESIRE that others have to murder me? And what about others that see things the way I see things? Is the existance of this mercanary group wrong to protect my right to interact with others and to protect the ability that others have to interact with me? I'm so deep, right now, that I can't help but be confronted by the incongruence of WORDS and their lack of substance, lack of meaning, lack of Truth (see Two Truths), to accept your simple definition and explanation. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Mike > > Thanks for the reply. > > (Going back to something in your original post first, then on to this one) > > (107259) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > "Samma-ajiva: Right livelihood is the deliberate abstinence from wrong livelihood, such as dealing in poisons, intoxicants, weapons, slaves, or animals for slaughter." > > > > > > > > I find it hard to reconcile such a description with the model of momentary citta, since it seems to me that "abstaining from ..." involves a whole series of cittas. > > =============== > > This definition may seem to suggest that right livelihood is present as long as one does not take up one those listed activities as an occupation. > > However, I don't think that's what is meant. What is being referred to, as I understand it, is the avoidance of any of those activities in the course of one's livelihood (whatever that may be). > > In addition, the restraint that is right livelihood is present whenever there is the kusala avoidance of any breach of a precept (stealing, lying, etc) in the course of one's livelihood. > > > =============== > > So would it be correct to say that in the case of right livelihood there are a long series of cittas arising, conditioned by previous ones, that have this cetasika? > > =============== > > If we are referring to an instance of, for example, kusala restraint from speaking falsely in the course of one's livelihood, then yes I would assume there would be a number of cittas in successive series that were accompanied by this particular cetasika. > > > =============== > > But now I'm perhaps getting more confused, since you say "conventional situations", and the "right livelihood" cetasika seems dangerously "conventional" or "conceptual". > > =============== > > It can be confusing. In fact, 'right livelihood' is just a name. The cetasika of this name is just as momentary as any other cetasika ;-)) > > Jon > #107270 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:05 am Subject: Re: Visiting the historical sites of the Buddha gazita2002 Hallo Thomas, please get in contact with Karen of Mandalamagic.com.au - she and her husband do tours thro India and Nepal etc. I'm sure you will get the info you need. get in touch with me offline for places in Bodhgaya, India. Happy travelling azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Dear Buddhist friends, > > Could anyone instruct me how to (from Australia) books accommodations and transportations for independently visiting the major sites (in Nepal and India) of the historical Buddha? I am unable to do so completely through the Internet. So far, I think one has to go to India (or Nepal) first, and then from there to make bookings, arrangements, for the pilgrimage tours? But this way of visiting the sites could be very uncertain and risky. > > Any advice will be greatly appreciated. > > Sincerely, > > Thomas Law > #107271 From: "Rob" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight rrobinrb2000 Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robin > > I've been enjoying your contribution to the discussions here. > Thank you for your kind words. > (107207) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" wrote: > > ... > I do not think the scattered attention of an untrained mind, one that jumps randomly from one object to another, is khanika sanadhi. I think it is khanika, but not not samadhi. > > =============== > "jonoabb" wrote: > In conventional usage, concentration can refer to the focusing on the task at hand, be it a simple or complex one, so that the task can be successfully completed. > > I think there is a parallel in the dhamma. 'Samadhi' refers to the concentration of the citta on its object, regardless of whether that object is a constantly changing one or is the same object being taken repeatedly. > > > =============== Robin writes: I agree. It is analogous. > A child randomly pounding on piano keys is not the same as Anna Fedorova playing Chopin's Polonaise. > > =============== > > Agreed. BTW, the skilful playing of Chopin's Polonaise would be a good example of a conventional task requiring a high degree of concentration, where the 'object' is changing constantly. > Robin writes: I agree. As is what is called mulri-tasking. Previously, I posted a fishy story intended to illustrate two different kinds of concentration. The objection raised seemed to be that cittas rise and fall too rapidly to be controlled or directed. > > =============== > > I do not think that directing or controlling one's mind somehow infers an attachment to a perpetual abiding self. > > =============== > > Right. We could say the Buddha's mind was well controlled. But it is a matter of one's understanding of the way of development leading to such control that may (or may not) involve ideas of a self. > > Jon > Robin writes: The word control is derived from contra or against + a verb meaning 'to roll' as a wheel. Direct comes from an intensified form a verb meaning 'to lead straight.' I wonder if steer or guide the mind would be less troublesome? I think of a conductor directing a symphonic orchestra. She or he is not directly controlling anything except a wand. Orchestrate the mind? robin #107272 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, (Apologies to all for such delayed replies) 106923 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >S: ....If there is any special selection at all or desire or intention to have it arise, or thought of special conditions first, it's not samatha, let alone samatha bhavana. > > KO: No want ask anyone to wait, we are saying these are the conditions, the prequisites. Just like developing vipassana, there must be listening and considering of dhamma. ... S: Who is this "we"? There are many conditions for every citta and every cetasika to arise. However, the purpose of satipatthana is to become detached from everything, even jhana, so it's never a matter of intending to develop samatha, intending to have jhana, intending to have vipassana arise. It just depends on accumulations, skills and other conditions. Any desire at all hinders immediately. "Natural" just means the arising of sati, panna, samatha, other wholesome states without wishing or expecting but by developing detachment at this moment. .... >If everyone could do it now, that would be most wonderful. ... S: No "one" can ever do anything - just conditioned dhammas. ... >Since we are all worldings do that mean we stop doing everything now and doing the now as suggested by you. ... S: Pls show me where I've suggested anything like this. ... >It is possible for the now if there is no mindfulness that arise. So it is a gradual training, training in virtue, mindfulness and clear comprehension. ... S: No one has denied this. ... >If we could do it now, we really dont it these at all? Right? cheers :-). Does that mean Buddha must be wasting his breath telling us so much about gradual development :-). ... S: Anatta! No self to do anything:-) You keep suggesting that you're the only person who is following the texts. Of course, many of us have studied the same texts, such as the Vism, for decades. The point is that the interpretation depends on the understanding. This is why the entire Abhidhamma and commentaries can be read in Pali with sakkaya-ditthi. Metta Sarah ====== #107273 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, #106918 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > So?what conditon panna, it is the choice taken to listen to a respectable teacher, reading the text, discussing?and considering the meaning.? These are the acts that condition panna, but what acts, dhamma that acts (cetana).? ... S: Panna now is primarily conditioned by previous panna which has accumulated. Because of such panna and associated states, such as cetana, there is the listening, reading, discussing and considering of the meaning. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty even these so-called "actions" are just different conditioned dhammas which we refer to in such a way. When the Buddha referred to the value of associating with the wise, listening, considering and developing understanding, he was pointing to the development of panna - right understanding based on association, listening, considering and development. Without the arising of any panna, just with cetana, such association and listening is useless. ... >If you dont act in this way, pse enlighten me how you listen and read books?? By panna alone ;-)?? ... S: "You" again...:-) No one ever acts, Ken! ... > By conditions, you mean conditions can automatically make you have more panna without listening?? ... S: No, conditions don't make anyone ever have panna. However, yes, panna just arises by conditions, such as the listening. If we go to listen, wishing and expecting to have panna, then it's the wrong path again:) Metta Sarah ======= #107274 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Overcoming wrong view....for now sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > So, as you and Lodewijk know well, it's the kusala cittas that > > count, whether preparing a book, an audio or at any other times. We > > learn to make our offerings without expectations or attachment to > > the gifts or the results. This way, we're not troubled or concerned > > about the results, but just do our best to help others. > ------- > N: Good you mention this. I sent it to Lodewijk. > You know our trouble with my sister. I thought of this while phoning > her, thinking of a similar advice by Kh Sujin. We have a good > intention, but we cannot help it if others do not appreciate it. .... S: And it doesn't matter at all whether they do or don't. Of course, in between our "good intentions", there are many not-so-good intentions when really we're just thinking of ourselves and our own ease. The genuinely good intentions don't bring any disappointments. .... > Well, everything was fine, no trouble at all. I prepared a very good > vegetarian luncheon that was appreciated. We never know the outcome. ... S: I was glad to hear it all went well. It's so true that we never know the outcomes. We waste our time thinking, speculating and worrying and forgetting about vipaka and conditions beyond our control. It's helpful for me to reflect on this as well. Metta Sarah ====== #107275 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:38 am Subject: Re: Part 2 : Jhanas -> 4 stages of Awakening sarahprocter... Dear Alex, #106935 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: >> You can't always include everything that they did in one sutta (which subject may have been not the story of a person, but a concrete sermon). > > For example, many of you seem to believe that awakening requires extraordinary amount of time gathering "accumulations". Do those suttas mention this? Do they mention that those ascetics had parents? Just because such things (which are taken as a given) are not mentioned, does it mean that these things didn't exist? ... S: Good point. This is why we cannot read one sutta alone, but always have to consider in the context of the entire Tipitaka. ... >In any case, those 5 ascetics have suppressed most of 5 hindrances quite well, so it is not a hard stretch to suggest that they mind was fairly pure and eventually receptive for Buddha's teaching. Their ascetism may have somewhat similar effects as after-jhanic hindrance free state from which to have insight into phenomena. ... S: What we can say is that there were the accumulations (yes, from aons, as we read in the Theri-Theragatha and Jatakas for example) to be receptive to the Teachings. ... <...> >It is not unlikely that in all those "arahant while cooking" stories, the attainment and what immediately happened prior to it was only a tip of the iceberg. Who knows for how long did those people meditate prior to this climax. Maybe they meditated 20 hours a day for weeks, months or years prior, maybe even for multiple lifetimes. This is why I put more wait toward definitive and general statements of the Buddha. .... S: Certainly the "food" for enlightenment has been developed over numerous lifetimes. Yes, jhana may have been attained in multiple liftimes. Whether we mean the same by "meditation" in this or any other context is another matter:-) Metta Sarah ====== #107276 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, #106931 on attanuditthi: --- On Mon, 19/4/10, Ken O wrote: >>S:?No one here, no one at all on DSG, has ever blamed the "bowl" as the cause of the vipallasas or of any other unwholesome states. The "bowl" is just a figment of the imagination. We all agree that the proliferations, the papancas, refer to the thinking with lobha, mana and ditthi and that these are the problem rather than bowls or the purple flying elephants or whatever else is dreamt about. >KO: You said there is something on the thing, so what is the cause of this something?? ... S: "something on the thing". Sorry, I haven't said this and don't understand it. What I've said repeatedly is that the hardness or colour experienced is taken for a "thing" for atta, for "a bowl", for example. Why? Because of ignorance and wrong view, attanuditthi. >More impt, you are basing on attanuditthi which I said there is no textual support on your claims.??Attanuditthi is sakkayditthi that is said clearly on the text by Path of discrimination, Dispeller of Delusion, and suttas. ... S: Sakkayaditthi is included in attanuditthi. When the hardness or colour is taken for "my hand", for example, it is sakkayaditthi. Attanuditthi is broader. The bowl is not taken for being part of me! If you look in U.P. under "attanuditthi" you'll see that I've often referred to the texts on attavadupadana, for example. As I've mentioned, we've studied the same texts, considered the same texts, but we come to different conclusions. I had long discussions on this topic before with Nina and then Han. They are subtle points as we all agree. Now, as you'll have seen from Han's messages, we have no disagreement anymore. ... >I give you another text where it shows attavadupadana is sakkayaditthi. http://www.accessto insight.org/ lib/authors/ nanamoli/ wheel377. html Now they assert in terms of this, thus it is a doctrine. By this they cling, thus it is clinging. What do they assert? Or what do they cling to? Self. The clinging to a doctrine about a self is the clinging to a doctrine of self (attavadupadana) . Or alternatively: by this a mere doctrine of self is clung to as self, thus it is clinging to a doctrine of self. This is a designation for personality view with its twenty cases. This is the brief account here. The detailed account should be understood by the method stated thus: "Therein, what is clinging to a doctrine of self? Here, the uninstructed worldling who has no regard for noble ones," etc. (Dhs. Section 1217). ... S: Here is the Pali: Idaani vadanti etenaati vaado. Upaadiyanti etenaati upaadaana.m. Ki.m vadanti, upaadiyanti vaa? Attaana.m. Attano vaadupaadaana.m attavaadupaadaana.m. Attavaadamattameva vaa attaati upaadiyati etenaati attavaadupaadaana.m, viisativatthukaaya sakkaayadi.t.thiyaa eta.m adhivacana.m. Ayamettha sa"nkhepo. Vitthaarato paneta.m ' 'tattha katama.m attavaadupaadaana.m, idha assutavaa puthujjano ariyaana.m adassaavii' 'ti (dha. sa. 1223) vuttanayena veditabba.m. S: What do they cling to? Atta. They cling to a doctrine of self, attavaadupaadaana. Yes, sakkaayadi.t.thi of the 20 kinds are included. Without sakkayadi.t.thi, no other kinds of attavaadupaadaana. It's like when we read about the rupas in terms of the 4 Mahabutarupas. This doesn't mean there are only 4 rupas, but without these rupas, there are no derived rupas. We always have to read and consider carefully. What is important is panna now and what it understands. The words in the text are for careful considering, not for blind recitation. The purpose is the eradication of all kinds of atta view. Slowly we begin to see how pervasive it is, such as when we take the hardness for a bowl that exists or when we have the idea of following steps or a method in order to develop panna:) Metta Sarah ======== #107277 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Study on the development of Jhanas - Clear Comprehension sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, #106932 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >S: Are you suggesting that "sampaja~n~naa, i.e. pa~n~naa, isn't necessary for the development of samatha or attainment of jhanas? I can't understand your comment. As Alex said, "Of course Jhana requires, wisdom, mindfulness, ethics and so on." ... >KO: Even though the arrangement is different from other suttas, the commentaries are clear that mindfulness and comprehension must be estabished for the?practise of any subject of meditation.? ... S: Yes, sati and panna are essential for any kind of bhavana, whether it be samatha or vipassana bhavana. In the case of samatha bhavana, the panna or sampajanna has a different object, but it is still essential. (Sati arises, of course, with all kusala cittas). Metta Sarah ========= #107278 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and condition sarahprocter... Hi Howard & Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > H: "I loved this post of yours, Ken. It is perfectly on-target, IMO. My > saying so will not endear you to many here, but, hey, just some more > conditions. :-)" > > Scott: Again, correct Howard. What with you and Alex endorsing Ken O.'s > newfound position, all credibility is off. I mean I like a good steak but > when the vultures are eating the steer I'll leave it to them. ;-) > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > =================================== > "Vultures" - hey, good one, Scott! :-) > BTW, just so you'll have your share, I've been observing your recent > conversations with Sarah and marveling at your apparently newly-found > flexibility! (Sorry, man!) ... Sarah: That was very funny, Howard - as Scott suggested in reply, you'll be ruining his credibility too:-)) Glad to see the good humour between you guys. (Scott, it only took Howard and Ken H about 10 years to 'bond' - so I think this is the start of a nice, warm, fuzzy relationship:-)) And I'll be back to all that "newly-found flexibility" soon, I promise! We don't want any more "flip-flops" after all:-) Metta Sarah ======== #107279 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and condition sarahprocter... Hi Howard (Ken O, Alex & all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: re #106948 > ================================ > I loved this post of yours, Ken. It is perfectly on-target, IMO. My > saying so will not endear you to many here, but, hey, just some more > conditions. :-) ... S: :-)). Alex's usual endorsement with follow-up comments about "Eat, drink and be merry, for things are anatta and nothing can be done." hardly helped either. I thought the post in question started off well (esp. the first para), until it got to the part about "something we could do" and "only when one could do things with the rise and fall of dhamma, then we could say our actions are natural." He also talked about understanding the nature of the conditions. No, what is important is to understand the dhammas appearing now, rather than thinking about useful conditions to follow with an idea of Self. He also referred to dhammas and concepts as conditioned and anatta if I read him correctly. "But we can change the way we understand this nature." Sounds like lobha with ditthi! Metta Sarah ===== #107280 From: Gemunu Rohana Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:29 am Subject: Lesson 9 :: Learn Abhidharma the easy way - Chethasika Samprayoga of 2 Hatred Rooted Chitta gemunu.rohana From the total of 12 Akusal(Unwholesome) Chitta, Hatred rooted collection (2 Chitta) is the next and last batch that result in birth of oneself in 4 fears hells Just like previos collection, knowing these Chitta inside out will help oneself avoid them from generating (which is worth doing at all costs). The different Chethasika has cleanly defined associations with each these Chitta in extremely logical fashion. If you analyze meaning of associated Chethasika against meaning of each Chitta, you can understand and memorize these associations without much effort. Please use following rules to remember associations 1. 7 Sarwa Chitta Sadarana Chethasika have to be there in any Chitta so they are counted as below 2. 14 Chethasika marked as common to all Akusal Chittha (including above 7) to be counted first 3. Adimokka (Judge action), Chanda(will power) Chethasika are also common to this category of Chitta, they are counted next, When added up common total becomes 16 4. As name hints, Dwaysa (Hatred) Chethasika is common to this category of Chitta 5. Issa (Oppose to others fame, wealth), Machchariya (Oppose to others fame which is equal to yours, Hiding own wealth), Kukkuchcha (Feeling of regret for past sins and missed good deeds) are three Chethasika that have a connection with Dwaysa Chethasika (Refer coloured grouping in 52 Chethasika), these 3 Chethasika Associated only sometimes depending on the situation. 7. When added up all above, the worst case common total becomes 20 6. Thinaya, Middaya Chethasika are again grouped together (Refer coloured grouping in 52 Chethasika) and associated only in Akusal Chitta generated as pushed by external party. Those Chitta are suffixed Sasanskarika during naming)? Try to remember the total Chethasika against each 2 Chitta as illustrated in the slide to complete your knowledge on this very important collection of dangerous Chittha. Referring back to 52 Chethasika and one following that will help you understand the details given in this slide better. The highlighting done using red cloud shows the worst Akusal Chitta in this collection. The 7 Potential Akusal Karamapatha due to these 8 Chitta are grouped by each door (Mind, Body, Speech) in the same slide. http://sinhaladharmastore.blogspot.com/2010/04/chethasika-samprayoga-of-2-hatred\ .html ?May the Triple Gem Bless You! May You Attain Sowan (Nirvana) in This Very Life! Visit http://sinhaladharmastore.blogspot.com/ for freely downloadable Dharma content. #107281 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, --- On Tue, 20/4/10, scottduncan2 wrote: >Regarding (part 2): AN VI i (51): "... - even so a monk's introspection is most fruitful in good conditions.. ." Evamevaa kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno paccavekkhaa bahukaaraa [bhikkhu paccavekkhamaano bahukaaro (ka.)] hoti kusalesu dhammesu" Scott: What about the above? How do you see this phrase to qualify what some might consider to be an explanation of method? ... S: When it is wise reflection, when there are kusala dhammas arising, it is always good, always useful, leading to beneficial results. Does this mean that we should try, that Atta should try, to have kusala dhammas arise, to have wise reflection with desire for such benefits? ... >We can see that 'hoti' relates to 'bhavati' and, to me, is a clear reference to the behaviour of dhammas in a natural order. How not to mix sammutisacca with paramatthasacca here? How to connect sammutisacca with paramattha sacca? Do you think that the two modes of description, referring to a single thing, ought to have some sort of correspondence? ... S: I just read about paramattha dhammas in the above quote. Such wholesome cittas and cetasikas can reflect wisely about dhammas or concepts. Whatever language is used, it's pointing to paramattha dhammas, surely? ... >Sarah: "Generally, I understand the passage to be referring to the undestanding of kusala and akusala - all dhammas have to be seen for what they are, like looking in the mirror. As I wrote: >'Aren't these also about understanding dhammas for what they are? For example, when he stresses seeing the smallest faults, how is this possible without the development of satipatthana or the path leading to satipatthana, depending on the understanding of the listeners? Just because he didn't mention 'anatta' in every sutta doesn't mean it is not implied.' >Scott: Again, we agree here. The point of contention is that when the Buddha suggests a form of 'introspection' with certain parameters is he literally suggesting to ordinary people a way of thinking? ... S: He's pointing out what is kusala, what is akusala, what leads to what result. Such pointing out may be a condition for understanding to develop,maybe even satipatthana, depending on the listener. ... >That is, is he teaching a right way to think conventionally about certain things? Some might call this a 'method.' .... S: He's pointing out what is good or useful in life. He's describing all kinds of realities. If one takes this as any kind of 'method', I believe it's atta-view. ... >One need not misunderstand this to imply that one should think this way to cause other dhammas to arise. ... S: Even so, by reading a 'method' into the words above, there is an idea of doing something by Atta, no matter how much one cries out that it's cetana or chanda which are anatta. As we know atta-ditthi can be very subtle. Whenever there's any idea of the path or the practice as being other than the understanding of the presently appearing dhamma, it's atta-ditthi and even when there's the idea of the practice being the understanding of the presently appearing dhamma, it can arise too, trying to know or be aware. How are we going so far? Metta Sarah ======= #107282 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:37 am Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + jonoabb Hi Alex (107268) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > > As regards the temporary suppression of hindrances by jhana citta, >that is not a prerequisite for the development of insight. > > Perhaps you are right, for Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu individuals. > =============== As far as matters of doctrine are concerned, it's not a case of one rule for some individuals and another rule for others. Either the temporary suppression of hindrances is a prerequisite for the development of insight or it isn't ;-)) > =============== > Yes and no. Hindrances (especially when strong) may need to be suppressed. > =============== OK, so you're saying that the suppression of hindrances is a prerequisite for some individuals, or on some occasions, but not for/on others. Would you mind explaining the basis for this difference, as you see it. Thanks. To my understanding, everyone who has not become enlightened has strong accumulated akusala (and this was also the case in the time of the Buddha). The different types of individuals are distinguished not by the degree of their accumulated akusala but by the level of previously developed insight. > =============== > Sure there can be some development of Panna prior. But just like most people who can't be expert swimmers through intellectual study alone, same is here. Wet-practice may be required. > =============== What is true for learning to swim does not necessarily apply to the development of insight!! ;-)) Did the Buddha himself give any similes/analogies comparing the development of the path to the acquisition of conventional skills? > =============== > If development of the path is natural and doesn't require effort as some say, then why aren't we already awakened? We've been countless amount of time in Samsara! > > If the development of the path requires "right" effort, then it cannot be "natural", otherwise we would naturally have gotten it a long time ago and realized Parinibbana. > =============== When the accumulated right effort is weak, the conditions for its (natural) arising are bound to occur much less frequently that when it is more developed. But that's just the way things are; there are no short cuts here! > =============== > Just like any action that can be done with Self View, thinking and considering could be done with wrong view as well. > =============== True, but not really to the point of our discussion, since nobody here is advocating a practice of thinking and considering. > =============== Thinking itself isn't Maha Kusala. Jhana is. The more kusala accumulations one has, the better. Comparing Jhanic and ordinary experience can really show and shed light on the truth of dukkha. > =============== To my understanding, the truth of dukkha relates to developed insight into the true nature of individual conditioned dhammas. The conditions for the development of such insight is what this discussion is all about. Jon #107283 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight jonoabb Hi Robin (107271) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" wrote: > ... > Robin writes: I agree. As is what is called mulri-tasking. Previously, I posted a fishy story intended to illustrate two different kinds of concentration. The objection raised seemed to be that cittas rise and fall too rapidly to be controlled or directed. > =============== Is there a connection between concentration and control? In the teachings, concentration is a mental factor (cetasika) that plays a significant role in the 2 kinds of mental development (bhavana -- samatha and vipassana). To my understanding, control tends to be used in the texts to describe the person of well developed kusala, rather than being a discrete factor or skill to be developed. > =============== > Robin writes: The word control is derived from contra or against + a verb meaning 'to roll' as a wheel. Direct comes from an intensified form a verb meaning 'to lead straight.' I wonder if steer or guide the mind would be less troublesome? I think of a conductor directing a symphonic orchestra. She or he is not directly controlling anything except a wand. Orchestrate the mind? > =============== Thanks for the comments on the etymology. My dictionary confirms the connection between contra and control (although it seems to be a somewhat indirect one). Orchestrate, steer or guide, or even control, the exact terminology is perhaps not as important as the the extent if any to which the development of the path involves these concepts. Jon #107284 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meditation centers/dsg sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, contd. --- On Thu, 29/4/10, sarah abbott wrote: AN VI i (51): "... - even so a monk's introspection is most fruitful in good conditions.. ." Evamevaa kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno paccavekkhaa bahukaaraa [bhikkhu paccavekkhamaano bahukaaro (ka.)] hoti kusalesu dhammesu" >>Sarah: "If you read it as 'an endorsement of a methodical way of thinking', I believe you're forgetting about conditioned dhammas and anatta. Whatever the Buddha said is for the understanding of anatta. Otherwise, why do we need a Buddha? Why not stick to our psychology studies?" >Scott: I'm as against the ridiculous self-help industry-cum- buddhism as are you. I don't wish to throw out the baby with the bath water. I don't agree with Ken O., in some ways difficult to articulate. I think, however, that he is reacting to a sort of dogmatic short-hand we are prone to which might obscure a valid point. >The Buddha teaches truth, not pop-psychology. The pop-psychology is a creation of wishful thinking and desire for results. But if the Buddha teaches one to think a certain way - and this as opposed to any other way of thinking - then this is still the teaching of truth couched in sammutisacca language. .... Sarah: Yes, no problem, as long as it's seen as the teaching of what is true, rather than as a method to be followed. .... >>Sarah: "Let me put it this way, if one has the idea that the path of satipatthana or vipassana is about understanding realities without a special method, but that another approach is that of samatha-bhavana and that this involves a method, then I believe this indicates there isn't an understanding of satipatthana, samatha bhavana or anatta." >Scott: Do you differentiate between 'samatha-bhaavanaa' and jhaana? ... Sarah: Yes, samatha-bhaavanaa is the development of samatha which may or may not lead to jhaana. ... >I think that we can read in the texts that jhaana was capable of development. Leaving aside the whole modern misunderstanding of 'meditation' and focusing on the texts, it seems to me that, say taking the whole kasina 'method' for example, there were ways in which one behaved on order to enter the various levels of jhaana. Is this not the case? .... Sarah: Again, any kind of samatha bhaavanaa depends on pa~n~naa and various skills and conditions. If there is an intention and wish to attain jhana it's a big hindrance to the path because there's no detachment from what is conditioned at that moment. Even for the development of satipatthana or the enlightenment factors, conditions such as "personal cleanliness", "balance of faculties", "avoiding unconcentrated people", "exerting", "gladdening", "equanimity" and so on are mentioned. These qualities are the nature of those who develop satipatthana. It doesn't mean that one gives special extra attention to "cleanliness" or avoiding of "unconcentrated people" in order for the enlightenment factors to be established. I also think there's a lot of mis-understanding about kasina and its meaning. ... >Scott: ....I don't think one can fudge on this: there really does seem to be a methodology in using a kasina to facilitate jhaana. There really were jhaana masters. These really had to go from novice to master and these really were people like us at some point. They did use kasinas and there was a described methodology. Can this be denied? Other requisite factors need to be considered but surely these basics are incontrovertible. Can we say that the Visuddhimagga might contain descriptions of ancients methods whereby, again for example, jhaana was achieved using kasinas? We'd need to clarify that these do not apply to the modern reader. ... Sarah: I think that as Sukin and Ken H have been stressing, the purpose of all the teachings is the development of satipatthana. So everyone lives a different lifestyle and has particular skills and attainemnts. All of these were described by the Buddha, but he was stressing the importance of becoming detached from everything, even the highest jhanas. It entirely depends on conditions whether one uses a kasina, counts breaths (as Sukin was discussing), reflects on the 32 parts of the body or anything else. the path is about not wishing or expecting or trying to attain anything. It's just about understanding what appears now regardless of the accumulations or habits one has. For example, the Buddha might have described the methodology in becoming a psychoanalyst or a yoga student or swimmer or Hedge-fund analyst or anything else. Regardless, there are just dhammas arising which can be known. We live in our worlds of dreams and forget the path when we think in terms of particular actions or methods to follow. ... >>Sarah: "The point is that samatha (calm) is passaddhi cetasika. Passaddhi cetasika or calm arises with all sobhana cittas. So at this moment of wise reflection on the dhamma, passaddhi cetasika has been conditioned already...Right understanding can learn to know the distinction and the value of the moments of kindness and the harm of the unkind moments. Again, such understanding is conditioned to arise (or not arise), but not by following a method. If the understanding grows, so does the metta and its value becomes more and more apparent. This is an example of samatha bhavana, the development of calm, in daily life. It can also be developed, again if there are conditions, whilst writing to friends here!! But not by Atta, not by thinking in terms of methods." >Scott: This desribes the unfolding of satipa.t.thaana. And yes, samatha-bhaavanaa is inherent in the process. This does not address the specialised form of samatha-bhaavanaa that is clearly involved in the pursuit of jhaana. Was this not also a way of samatha-bhaavanaa - all relevent qualifiers implied? ... Sarah: Yes, particular conditions and processes involved in the attainment of jhaana. Any pursuit of this or wishing to attain this would be contrary to the Buddha's teachings, however. ... >>Sarah: "For many in the Buddha's time, samatha bhavana was developed up to the various jhanas. Again, each citta, each reflection, each moment of calm was conditioned. " >Scott: Yes. Was there not a conventional method as well - a series of acts, kasinas, etc. that were in use? ... Sarah: All conditioned dhammas. .... >>Sarah: "If we agree (as we do) that the development of satipatthana is to become detached from everything, even jhana, it's clear that the intention to have jhana in order to have vipassana is wrong and indicates a lack of understanding of the development of samatha and vipassana. Whatever the particular tendencies, any desire to have such states such as jhana or insight, hinders the development. Even a very slight wish for any attainment hinders the development immediately and leads away from the path. This, I understand, is what is meant by natural development of samatha and satipatthana. Any wish, expectation or trying to attain anything prevents the development of detachment from all that is conditioned in life at this moment." >Scott: What about just jhaana for jhaana's sake? ... Sarah: The Buddha praised what should be praised, so jhana was highly praised. But, it was also pointed out that it doesn't help remove the bricks of samsara and so it's the wrong path. Only satipatthana is the right path. ... >This was something that people could attain. Jhaana was certainly experienced as described. I see that, coming from a totally vipassanaa-centric view, you return again and again to jhaana in order to have vipassanaa. Right. ... S: Sorry, this doesn't make sense to me. There is no question of "returning to" anythong "in order to have vipassanaa". Who can return to seeing, hearing or any other dhamma now for vipassana to arise? ... >No one can will the requisite consciousness and mental factors to arise and intuit jhaana-citta by wisdom. ... Sarah: Exactly. It just depends on conditions what appears. If there's any wish that it be jhana, it's not the path. For those for whom jhana arose as base/object for insight/enlightenment, it was entirely natural without any wish or expectation of such. ... >Scott: What about simply acknowledging that jhaana was practised methodically? Or that the Buddha suggested certain ways of thinking about things? ... Sarah: It's not the words, but the understanding that's important. Like the Buddha's words from AN above - it all depends on the interpretation and whether there's any idea of following for some attainment. Of course there were particular conditions and skills described for the development and attainment of any kind of bhavana. "Certain ways of thinking" can be with attachment or detachment! Metta Sarah ======== #107285 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + upasaka_howard Hi, Jon & Alex - In a message dated 4/29/2010 5:38:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Alex (107268) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > > As regards the temporary suppression of hindrances by jhana citta, >that is not a prerequisite for the development of insight. > > Perhaps you are right, for Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu individuals. > =============== As far as matters of doctrine are concerned, it's not a case of one rule for some individuals and another rule for others. Either the temporary suppression of hindrances is a prerequisite for the development of insight or it isn't ;-)) ================================== In general, what is appropriate for some is inappropriate for others. Different "accumulations" call for different rectifications. The Buddha tailored his teaching to the individual. However, as regards the relationship between the hindrances and the development of liberating insight, the rule is across-the-board: Suspension of hindrances is not just supportive but *necessary*. Consider the following, for example, pointed out by Ven Nyanaponika: ____________________________ There are five impurities of gold impaired by which it is not pliant and wieldy, lacks radiance, is brittle and cannot be wrought well. What are these five impurities? Iron, copper, tin, lead and silver. But if the gold has been freed from these five impurities, then it will be plaint and wieldy, radiant and firm, and can be wrought well. Whatever ornaments one wishes to make from it, be it a diadem, earrings, a necklace or a golden chain, it will serve that purpose. Similarly, there are five impurities of the mind impaired by which the mind is not pliant and wieldy, lacks radiant lucidity and firmness, and cannot concentrate well upon the eradication of the taints (asava). What are these five impurities? They are: sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, and sceptical doubt. But if the mind is freed of these five impurities, it will be pliant and wieldy, will have radiant lucidity and firmness, and will concentrate well upon the eradication of the taints. Whatever state realizable by the higher mental faculties one may direct the mind to, one will in each case acquire the capacity of realization, if the (other) conditions are fulfilled. - AN 5:23 ------------------------------------------------- BTW, the terminology of the mind being made "pliant and wieldy" is frequently used by the Buddha with respect to the jhanas, most particularly the 4th. With metta, Howard Hindrances /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains - going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it - and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #107286 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:05 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (107268) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > > As regards the temporary suppression of hindrances by jhana citta, >that is not a prerequisite for the development of insight. > > > > Perhaps you are right, for Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu individuals. > > =============== > > As far as matters of doctrine are concerned, it's not a case of one >rule for some individuals and another rule for others. Either the >temporary suppression of hindrances is a prerequisite for the >development of insight or it isn't ;-)) It is a prerequisite. With hindrances, insight is just thinking & restlessness. As for Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu, they have done enough prior work that what they needed at THEIR stage is just a bit of proper guidance. It is like a pot filled with water to the brim, only few or even one drop of water may be enough to make overflow. An empty pot may need far more droplets of water to make it overflow. The reason Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu induvidials may not need much is because they have developed a lot. A short paragraph was enough for Bahiya to become an Arahant. Did you become an Arahant (or even a stream enterer) while reading and considering even 100x the amount of right views? Think! Howard has provided a good quote: There are five impurities of gold impaired by which it is not pliant and wieldy, lacks radiance, is brittle and cannot be wrought well. What are these five impurities? Iron, copper, tin, lead and silver. But if the gold has been freed from these five impurities, then it will be plaint and wieldy, radiant and firm, and can be wrought well. Whatever ornaments one wishes to make from it, be it a diadem, earrings, a necklace or a golden chain, it will serve that purpose. Similarly, there are five impurities of the mind impaired by which the mind is not pliant and wieldy, lacks radiant lucidity and firmness, and cannot concentrate well upon the eradication of the taints (asava). What are these five impurities? They are: sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, and sceptical doubt. But if the mind is freed of these five impurities, it will be pliant and wieldy, will have radiant lucidity and firmness, and will concentrate well upon the eradication of the taints. Whatever state realizable by the higher mental faculties one may direct the mind to, one will in each case acquire the capacity of realization, if the (other) conditions are fulfilled. -" AN 5:23 ======= > > > =============== > > Yes and no. Hindrances (especially when strong) may need to be suppressed. > > =============== > > OK, so you're saying that the suppression of hindrances is a >prerequisite for some individuals, or on some occasions, but not >for/on others. See above. > > To my understanding, everyone who has not become enlightened has >strong accumulated akusala (and this was also the case in the time >of the Buddha). There is difference of degree between akusala of Ugghatitannu vs padaparama (or neyya) induvidial. >The different types of individuals are distinguished not by the >degree of their accumulated akusala but by the level of previously >developed insight. Right, and samatha is part of it. I am not sure that you can call it insight if it is a restless mind jumping like a monkey from one branchy (sense organ) to another. > Did the Buddha himself give any similes/analogies comparing the >development of the path to the acquisition of conventional skills? OFTEN! He used many similes, "Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite ? the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html Another simile, the Acrobat http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.019.than.html > > > =============== > > If development of the path is natural and doesn't require effort as some say, then why aren't we already awakened? We've been countless amount of time in Samsara! > > > > If the development of the path requires "right" effort, then it cannot be "natural", otherwise we would naturally have gotten it a long time ago and realized Parinibbana. > > =============== > > When the accumulated right effort is weak, the conditions for its (natural) arising are bound to occur much less frequently that when it is more developed. But that's just the way things are; there are no short cuts here! > Right. Only when one has enough wisdom would one try to dispell one's hindrances as if "one's turban is on fire" "Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html#turban2 > > =============== > > Just like any action that can be done with Self View, thinking and considering could be done with wrong view as well. > > =============== > > True, but not really to the point of our discussion, since nobody here is advocating a practice of thinking and considering. > But isn't it the DSG teaching of thinking & considering until the path appears and does everything? > > To my understanding, the truth of dukkha relates to developed >insight into the true nature of individual conditioned dhammas. The >conditions for the development of such insight is what this ?>discussion is all about. And insight will not occur unless one actually does something and has material (such as Jhana) to examine. With metta, Alex #107287 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >S: "something on the thing". Sorry, I haven't said this and don't understand it. What I've said repeatedly is that the hardness or colour experienced is taken for a "thing" for atta, for "a bowl", for example. >Why? Because of ignorance and wrong view, attanuditthi. > KO:? Hardness is a thing, feeling is a thing, there is nothing wrong with thing, the wrongness come from miccha ditthi taking this hardnes or feeling or thing?as permament or as belong to oneself etc.? >... >S: Sakkayaditthi is included in attanuditthi. When the hardness or colour is taken for "my hand", for example, it is sakkayaditthi. Attanuditthi is broader. The bowl is not taken for being part of me! > >If you look in U.P. under "attanuditthi" you'll see that I've often referred to the texts on attavadupadana, for example. As I've mentioned, we've studied the same texts, considered the same texts, but we come to different conclusions. I had long discussions on this topic before with Nina and then Han. They are subtle points as we all agree. Now, as you'll have seen from Han's messages, we have no disagreement anymore. >... KO? I dont need to read at UP because?your basis or claim has no textual support.? You can even ask Nina and Han to?show me the textual support of these claims.??? Honestly you are promoting a new ditthi which is not supported by the text.?? The bowl is taken as part of me is sakkayaditthi and attanuditthi.??? The text has already been consistent attanudditthi is sakkayaditthi.?? So please prove and not interpret. > >S: What do they cling to? Atta. They cling to a doctrine of self, attavaadupaadaana. Yes, sakkaayadi.t. thi of the 20 kinds are included. Without sakkayadi.t. thi, no other kinds of attavaadupaadaana. >It's like when we read about the rupas in terms of the 4 Mahabutarupas. This doesn't mean there are only 4 rupas, but without these rupas, there are no derived rupa > >We always have to read and consider carefully. What is important is panna now and what it understands. The words in the text are for careful considering, not for blind recitation. The purpose is the eradication of all kinds of atta view. Slowly we begin to see how pervasive it is, such as when we take the hardness for a bowl that exists or when we have the idea of following steps or a method in order to develop panna:) KO:??Definitely, the text shows attavaadaupanna is just sakkayditthi.? It?did not say?as what you claim.??When the text said there are four elements, it is refering to all rupas. ?No matter one classified rupas or derived rupa or all rupas, it is the clinging that cause the clinging and not the rupas.? Rupas dont cling.? We take hardness for a bowl or a being or any concepts, that is nothing wrong in this perception, it is only when we take this hardness for a bowl as self or as eternal, that is the ditthi that cause it and not because one perceive hardness as bowl or being.? We cannot stop the mind from thinking of concepts like rupa as bowl or being, we could only understand it as it rupa or as anatta.? It is not the bowl or hardness that matters, it is the understanding of it that matters. Kind regards Ken O #107288 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Study on the development of Jhanas - Clear Comprehension ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >S: Yes, sati and panna are essential for any kind of bhavana, whether it be samatha or vipassana bhavana. In the case of samatha bhavana, the panna or sampajanna has a different object, but it is still essential. (Sati arises, of course, with all kusala cittas). > KO:? Sati arise with all kusala does not mean it is the main faculty.? Just like the arisen of lobha, ignorance do arise but ignorance may not be the main dhamma that is perceived, it could be lobha.? Just like when panna arise, panna becomes the main faculty and not sati.? Cheers Ken O #107289 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and condition ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >S: :-)). Alex's usual endorsement with follow-up comments about "Eat, drink and be merry, for things are anatta and nothing can be done." hardly helped either. > >I thought the post in question started off well (esp. the first para), until it got to the part about "something we could do" and "only when one could do things with the rise and fall of dhamma, then we could say our actions are natural." He also talked about understanding the nature of the conditions. No, what is important is to understand the dhammas appearing now, rather than thinking about useful conditions to follow with an idea of Self. He also referred to dhammas and concepts as conditioned and anatta if I read him correctly. "But we can change the way we understand this nature." Sounds like lobha with ditthi! KO:? If one cannot change the way we think, then I what is panna for :-).?? You mean you dont change the way you think about dhamma after you listen to AS for the first few times Cheers Ken O #107290 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >S: Who is this "we"? There are many conditions for every citta and every cetasika to arise. However, the purpose of satipatthana is to become detached from everything, even jhana, so it's never a matter of intending to develop samatha, intending to have jhana, intending to have vipassana arise. It just depends on accumulations, skills and other conditions. Any desire at all hinders immediately. "Natural" just means the arising of sati, panna, samatha, other wholesome states without wishing or expecting but by developing detachment at this moment. KO:?? When you mean natural, so does lobha.? so what is natural which I have ask you before.?? Ah... the word accumlations, if it does not start somewhere to start developing it, it would not happen.? so dont use accumulations too losely because there could be aksuala accumulations also.? The text is clear that?jhanas can be developed, unless you show a me text the jhanas otherwise.? >.... >>If everyone could do it now, that would be most wonderful. >... >S: No "one" can ever do anything - just conditioned dhammas. KO:? With due respect, I think we should stop playing games with No one or No I or we.? I have said that to you earlier and there is no need to test my understanding that it is only dhamma that conditioned.? I am very clear on this.? > ... >S: Anatta! No self to do anything:-) You keep suggesting that you're the only person who is following the texts. Of course, many of us have studied the same texts, such as the Vism, for decades. The point is that the interpretation depends on the understanding. This is why the entire Abhidhamma and commentaries can be read in Pali with sakkaya-ditthi. ? KO:? again stop playing words.? If you think I did not follow the text, then you should me the text?that what?I said is false.?? Dont said it base on one understanding, because the text is clear on breathing which is a method, which is a concept, which leads to jhanas and then as a basis of insight.? If I am wrong, pse do show me the text and not said it is based on understanding and claim about reading it with sakkayaditthi.? Furthermore you have read it for many years, yet when I ask for textual support, on your intepretation and claims, there is none given. Kind regards Ken O #107291 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >? >Dear Ken O, > >#106918 > >--- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, Ken O wrote: >> So?what conditon panna, it is the choice taken to listen to a respectable teacher, reading the text, discussing?and considering the meaning.? These are the acts that condition panna, but what acts, dhamma that acts (cetana).? >... >S: Panna now is primarily conditioned by previous panna which has accumulated. Because of such panna and associated states, such as cetana, there is the listening, reading, discussing and considering of the meaning. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty even these so-called "actions" are just different conditioned dhammas which we refer to in such a way. When the Buddha referred to the value of associating with the wise, listening, considering and developing understanding, he was pointing to the development of panna - right understanding based on association, listening, considering and development. Without the arising of any panna, just with cetana, such association and listening is useless. >... KO:? You mean other dhamam cannot condition panna to arise.? Sati can condition likewise for any saddha.? It is not restricted to previous panna.? you mean listening is not an action, dont said action is useless, without it you cannot even listen.?? >>If you dont act in this way, pse enlighten me how you listen and read books?? By panna alone ;-)?? >... >S: "You" again...:-) No one ever acts, Ken! >... KO:? You mean cetana dont act.?N one acts that i know,? But what is the dhamma that cause to read books. Panna alone >... >S: No, conditions don't make anyone ever have panna. However, yes, panna just arises by conditions, such as the listening. If we go to listen, wishing and expecting to have panna, then it's the wrong path again:) KO:? definitely, but if you dont listen and read, would you have panna.? You like saying that when Buddha in front of Dipanka Buddha and declare he wanted to be Buddha is wrong, isnt he expecting to be a Buddha.?? So what is dhamma that expects, so what is the dhamma that condition one to listen and read, panna alone again :-) ? kind regards Ken O #107292 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Lukas > >L: concepts cannot be object of satipatthana, this is impossible, only nama and ruupa can be object to sati. >concepts maybe can condition satipatthana. there is nothing wrong in that. > KO: Now the present?dosa? you experience is conventional or paramatha level.? Understand this, you will understand that it is not the concepts that matter, it is the understanding whatever object that come to the mind as anatta that matters.?? The whole thing about only nama and rupa can be an object of satipattana is base on the basis of at least vipassana nana.?? And again the whole basis of understanding viriya, cetana, chanda is base on suparmundane level and using it to base on mundane level.? Because in mundane level, the ten wholesome actions, the object can be a being,? Only in suparmundane level these right actions is the eradication of defilements,? As long as one has no direct understanding of dhamma, whatever one learn now is basically conventional which is conceptual.? Kind regards Ken O #107293 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:14 pm Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening szmicio Dear Ken O, > KO: Now the present?dosa? you experience is conventional or paramatha level.? Understand this, you will understand that it is not the concepts that matter, it is the understanding whatever object that come to the mind as anatta that matters.?? L: Only 5 khandhas that matters. I know buddhists who constantly put attention to 5 khandhas in life. > The whole thing about only nama and rupa can be an object of satipattana is base on the basis of at least vipassana nana.? L: And where vipassana nanas are listed? Can we find it in Abhidhamma or Sutta? What is the purpose of that classification? >? And again the whole basis of understanding viriya, cetana, chanda is base on suparmundane level and using it to base on mundane level.? Because in mundane level, the ten wholesome actions, the object can be a being,? Only in suparmundane level these right actions is the eradication of defilements,? As long as one has no direct understanding of dhamma, whatever one learn now is basically conventional which is conceptual.? L: Yes, only 5 khandhas that matters. No other object of understanding. Buddha tried to tell this in Suttas, but this very hard to see that. In Poland we have a site where are only most important Suttas. And there is a lot of Suttas with seeing, hearing... This helped me to see what is important. Best wishes Lukas #107294 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:43 pm Subject: Vesak szmicio Dear friends, This year I will spend Vesak. But I am not sure when it is? I will surely get some rest that day, Best wishes Lukas #107296 From: "Mike" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:11 pm Subject: Re: Vesak mikenz66 Re: Vesak Hi Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear friends, > This year I will spend Vesak. But I am not sure when it is? > > I will surely get some rest that day, > > Best wishes > Lukas > It ia May 28 by the Thai calendars: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/uposatha2010.html Metta Mike #107298 From: "Mike" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? mikenz66 Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >>K: If everyone could do it now, that would be most wonderful. > >... > >S: No "one" can ever do anything - just conditioned dhammas. > > KO: With due respect, I think we should stop playing games with No one or No I or we. I have said that to you earlier and there is no need to test my understanding that it is only dhamma that conditioned. I am very clear on this. Mike: My guess is that Sarah is just joking around. The mindstream conventionally known as "Mike" certainly hopes so :) Mike #107299 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt kenhowardau Hi Ken O, It must be my turn. :-) At the end of your post to Sukin you wrote: ----------- > why because you think you are right and there is no other bhavana except vipassana :-).?? ----------- I can't imagine what you meant by that. Do we agree the Buddha taught vipassana? He taught other things too, but everything he taught was to be understood in terms of vipassana. Everything else is useless without it. Vipassana is the only way out. ---------------- KO: > The others?also cannot?show me an?ounce of text that?there is no method, there is no actions or there is no choice, just tell me base on understanding.? ---------------- How about anatta? That's in the texts. Doesn't anatta say it all? Anatta means that conventional reality (atta) is wrong. Belief in conventional reality is miccha ditthi. When you insist on the reality of conventional methods, you insist on miccha ditthi. The only real methods are momentary functions that take place within a single citta. -------------------------- KO: > Everyone can claim that.? I am serious about this discussion because?I find?there is a lack of understanding of how satipatthana is meant in the text and the way dhamma works.? No offence to anyone but that is the truth, one claim one know about satipatthana but the text shows otherwise that concepts can be used for satipatthana.? --------------------------- Concepts are atta. Belief in the efficacy of concepts is miccha ditthi. -------------------------------- KO: > No one has yet produce?a single?text that say concepts cannot be satipatthana.?? ? -------------------------------- Every word of the Dhamma denies the reality of concepts (atta). ------------------------------------ KO: > ?The texts shows there is a choice, strive and action why because they are dhammas that cause their arisen, and of all, there are methods.? ------------------------------------ The texts show what happens in the loka. They show the arising and falling of momentary dhammas. In reality there is no Ken O and there are no computers or conventional methods: there are only dhammas. ----------------- KO: > Why because satipatthana does not choose what is the object that comes to be mind, it just penetrates the anatta?meaning irregardless of the object that is present. ----------------- That is true only if the object is a real one - not an imaginary one. Imaginary objects have no meaning. (Unless you count imaginary meaning.) -------------------- KO: > Why because wrongness does not come from a method, --------------------- That is exactly what we have been trying to tell *you*. Methods have no inherent qualities - no wrongness or rightness, or anything. ---------------------------- KO: > but the?akusala?dhamma that arise with the method, smiliar to actions, rules and rituals.?? ---------------------------- Yes, it's only the akusala dhammas that cause harm. The greatest harm-causing dhamma is miccha-ditthi - belief in the efficacy of methods. Ken H #107300 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? > > Hi Ken, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > >>K: If everyone could do it now, that would be most wonderful. > > >... > > >S: No "one" can ever do anything - just conditioned dhammas. > > > > KO: With due respect, I think we should stop playing games with No one or No > I or we. I have said that to you earlier and there is no need to test my > understanding that it is only dhamma that conditioned. I am very clear on > this. > > Mike: My guess is that Sarah is just joking around. The mindstream conventionally known as "Mike" certainly hopes so :) > > Mike ----------- Hi Mike, If you would care to write a bit more about this I would be interested to read it. What can you tell us about mind streams? If they can have names and can do things (such as hope) how are they any different from selves? Ken H #107301 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:14 am Subject: different mindstreams truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, >KH:What can you tell us about mind streams? If they can have names and >can do things (such as hope) how are they any different from selves? When Sariputta attained Arhatship, we did not. Devadatta's kamma isn't someone elses. I hope you don't accept nihilism, Ken. With metta, Alex #107302 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:17 am Subject: Re: meditation centers/dsg kenhowardau Hi Scott and Sarah, -------- Sc: > That is, is he teaching a right way to think conventionally about certain things? Some might call this a 'method.' .... S: He's pointing out what is good or useful in life. He's describing all kinds of realities. If one takes this as any kind of 'method', I believe it's atta-view. ---------- Yes, Scott, what Sarah said. A favourite saying of our meditating friends is, "You can't have what you want until you have stopped wanting it." Then they try to stop wanting. Why? So they can have what they . . . want. Only when there is right understanding of conditioned reality, does wanting become irrelevant. That is when we know there is no one to want anything for. Ken H #107303 From: "Mike" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? mikenz66 Hi KH: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > What can you tell us about mind streams? If they can have names and can do things (such as hope) how are they any different from selves? Good to see you still have your sense of humour... Mike #107304 From: "Mike" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:49 am Subject: Re: meditation centers/dsg mikenz66 Hi KenH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: Yes, Scott, what Sarah said. A favourite saying of our meditating friends is, "You can't have what you want until you have stopped wanting it." Then they try to stop wanting. Why? So they can have what they . . . want. Mike: As opposed to being others who only want to do things that occur "naturally"? Mike #107305 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? kenhowardau Hi Mike, --- M: > Good to see you still have your sense of humour... --- Thanks, but my question was asked in all sincerity. When people talk about mind streams I have to wonder if they are talking conventionally, in which case, why not use the conventional terminology "I" "me" or "myself"? I therefore assume that an ultimate meaning is being implied. Hence my question: how is a mind stream that thinks (or hopes) any different from a self? Ken H #107306 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:03 am Subject: Re: different mindstreams kenhowardau Hi Alex, ------------- A: > I hope you don't accept nihilism, Ken. ------------- No, I don't even know exactly what nihilism is. Some people might think the philosophy "everything ends at death" is similar to "everything ends at parinibbana." But it isn't similar at all. Until we understand that everything ends now - at this moment - we can't begin to understand how "everything ends at parinibbana." Ken H #107307 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:23 am Subject: Re: meditation centers/dsg kenhowardau Hi Mike, --- M: > As opposed to being others who only want to do things that occur "naturally"? --- No, I would put those people in the same category. I would say "as opposed to others who understand the way things are now." Ken H #107308 From: "Mike" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana still possible? mikenz66 Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > I therefore assume that an ultimate meaning is being implied. Hence my question: how is a mind stream that thinks (or hopes) any different from a self? Mike: Who is this "I" that is assuming an ultimate meaning? Mike #107309 From: "Mike" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:34 am Subject: Re: meditation centers/dsg mikenz66 Hi KenH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > --- > M: > As opposed to being others who only want to do things that occur "naturally"? > --- > > HK: No, I would put those people in the same category. > > KH: I would say "as opposed to others who understand the way things are now." Wouldn't such a person be an ariya? Mike #107310 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:43 am Subject: Re: Jhana still possible? kenhowardau Hi Mike, -------- > Who is this "I" that is assuming an ultimate meaning? -------- There is ultimately no such "I". In reality there are just momentary dhammas, and they don't assume anything. They have no interest in assuming - or anything. They just perform their functions, as they were conditioned to do, and then fall away as quickly as they arose. They can, however, create the illusion of someone who assumes. As they did in this instance. :-) Ken H #107311 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:58 am Subject: Re: meditation centers/dsg kenhowardau Hi Mike, > > KH: I would say "as opposed to others who understand the way things are now." > > Wouldn't such a person be an ariya? > ------ Not necessarily, it could be anyone who understands the theory of paramattha dhammas. Ken H (Surf's up!) #107312 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:17 am Subject: I scream, U scream, We all scream for Ice-Cream! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: From external Element to internal Urge to silly Search: There is the element of eye-sensitivity, the element of visual form, these induce the element of visual consciousness. The coincidence of these three, is eye Contact... In dependence on this element of visual-sensitivity, there arises eye-contact. In dependence on eye-contact, there arises a feeling, born of eye-contact. In dependence on feeling born of eye-contact, there arises instant craving... In dependence on the element of visual form, there arises perception. In dependence on this visual experience, tendency towards a form arises. In dependence on this inclination, desire for particular visible forms arises. In dependence on this specific desire, a fever for these specific forms arises. In dependence on this fever for form, search after these certain forms arises. In dependence on this search for form, reaching out, acquisition & panic clinging to a manifold of forms, comes into being... Such is the arising of this entire mass of ever frustrated suffering... Similarly with the pairs of ear & sound, nose & smell, tongue & taste, body & touch, mind & mental states and their respective specific kinds of consciousness. This search, this urge, this compulsive drive, is caused by that craving ! Craving that was born from feeling, which was arised from contact… Any Craving causes Suffering... Right here and now, later and much later... Right there at greeting Contact, is this Suffering therefore born... Right there at avoiding Contact, is this Suffering therefore left... I Scream, You Scream, We all Scream for Ice-Cream... (Jim Jarmusch in the film: Down by Law) Source: The Grouped Sayings on the Elements by the Buddha. Dhatu-Samyutta Nikaya XIV http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sama-hita _/\_ Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #107313 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: different mindstreams szmicio Dear Alex, Ken H, > >KH:What can you tell us about mind streams? If they can have names and >can do things (such as hope) how are they any different from selves? > > > When Sariputta attained Arhatship, we did not. Devadatta's kamma isn't someone elses. > > I hope you don't accept nihilism, Ken. L: Do you remember flickering candle simile? (from Milinda questions as I remember). There is no Personality, no Self, just fleeting moments of minds that constitute this non-lasting personality. I like consider this. One moment such kind of personality, another time different personality. No Lukas just different moments of consciousness. Best wishes Lukas #107314 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Lukas > >L: Only 5 khandhas that matters. I know buddhists who constantly put attention to 5 khandhas in life. > KO:? The learning of the five khandhas help to understand dhamma and when a concept that arise, dhamma will arise with it.? So it is just because it is a concept, we reject the learning of the dhamma that arise with it.? Or it would be better we learn to understand what dhamma that arise with concepts.?? It is not the objects of the mind, it is rather the dhamma that arise that matter.? 32 parts a concept can condition eradication of greed slowly, it is the understanding these 32 parts are foul?so as to eradicate the greed > >L: And where vipassana nanas are listed? Can we find it in Abhidhamma or Sutta? What is the purpose of that classification? KO:??See Visud on the understanding sections.? That is where there is no more concepts just nama and rupas. >L: Yes, only 5 khandhas that matters. No other object of understanding. Buddha tried to tell this in Suttas, but this very hard to see that. In Poland we have a site where are only most important Suttas. And there is a lot of Suttas with seeing, hearing... >This helped me to see what is important. KO:? If the five khandhas help you a lot, pse continue to do so and I encourage you to do so.??You?are right?there are many suttas about namas and rupas, then there are also many suttas about?using concepts to develop understanding like mindfulness of body or mindfulness of breath.?? so it depends on one's preference and not squarely, development is just base on nama and rupa. Also?cetana, chanda, viriay, vittaka are all khandas.? :-) Cheers Ken O #107315 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Ken H What you said are only claims, do you have any textual support that said concepts cannot be used for development of understanding or concepts cannot be for satipatthna.? But Ken, I can show you many instances of concepts used in development and they are can used for satipatthana from the texts. >I can't imagine what you meant by that. Do we agree the Buddha taught vipassana? He taught other things too, but everything he taught was to be understood in terms of vipassana. Everything else is useless without it. Vipassana is the only way out. > KO:??Everything is taught about understanding anatta, anicca and dukkha, not necessary vipassana.? If an object which?can be a?concept can help one to understand these three characteristics, it would be taught. >How about anatta? That's in the texts. Doesn't anatta say it all? > >Anatta means that conventional reality (atta) is wrong. Belief in conventional reality is miccha ditthi. > >When you insist on the reality of conventional methods, you insist on miccha ditthi. > >The only real methods are momentary functions that take place within a single citta. KO:? Anatta is not self and does not mean conventional reality is wrong.? If it is wrong, it would be difficult to teach dhamma.? Just like listening, it is a conventional action, if it is wrong by itself, how do panna arise.? We know when that akusala and kusala cannot arise together, so if listening is wrong, then how do panna be developed as the dhammas that condition listening?will be akusala.??? Another explanation, if convetionality action or reality?is wrong, Buddha will not have taught 32 parts, ownerless of material objects etc.? As long an object can help the understanding of anatta, it would be taught. >Concepts are atta. Belief in the efficacy of concepts is miccha ditthi. KO:? Nope, atta only arise with miccha ditthi and not with concepts.?Concepts can condition the?arisen of miccha ditthi but it is not miccha ditthi or atta. ?Alternatively, since concept has no efficacy, how could atta arise in the first place.? >Every word of the Dhamma denies the reality of concepts (atta). > KO:? You have to show me the text and not claims.? I have been saying that, none of you can show me the textual support.??Concept is not rejected because what we learn is base on concepts for development of understanding.? I can show you many instances of concepts used as development of the path.? >The texts show what happens in the loka. They show the arising and falling of momentary dhammas. In reality there is no Ken O and there are no computers or conventional methods: there are only dhammas. >That is true only if the object is a real one - not an imaginary one. Imaginary objects have no meaning. (Unless you count imaginary meaning.) > KO:? Is there cetana, viriya and chanda? If there is no cetana, how do one perform an aksuala act?? By lobha, dosa or moha?? Also isn't what we know now are also conventional level, isnt that conventional reality :-).?? Ultimately there is no computer or Ken O, but the understanding of computer does not belong to anyone, helps to develop the?understanding of not-self.? That is satipatthana, the understanding of anatta, anicca and dukkha.? > >That is exactly what we have been trying to tell *you*. Methods have no inherent qualities - no wrongness or rightness, or anything. >Yes, it's only the akusala dhammas that cause harm. The greatest harm-causing dhamma is miccha-ditthi - belief in the efficacy of methods. > KO:? Nope you said all conventional reality is atta, so it is not consistent with your statement methods have no inherent qualities and concepts are atta.?? The use of methods is not said by me or developed by me, it is written in the commentaries, suttas, Visud?and Abhidhamma texts by the ancient masters.? If you think it is wrong, please do tell me which text.?? cheers Ken O #107316 From: "sprlrt" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:34 pm Subject: Naama & ruupa sprlrt Hi Nina, KenO, Scott, and all, Sarah has drawn my attention to msg #106184, I'm posting some more comments on the subject. The main meaning of n?ma is that of naming, which only applies to the four n?ma khandhas, sa???, vedan?, sankh?ra, and vi???na (r?pas and nibb?na don't have naming capabilities, since they don't experience anything). The second meaning, namati, is that of bending, of being attracted towards certain paramattha dhammas (again, r?pas and nibb?na don't bend towards anything at all). The third meaning, n?meti, is that of causing to bend, of attracting the four n?ma khandhas (which in their turn are attracted / bend toward them, and give them names as well); in this sense it includes most paramattha dhammas, excluding those akusala ones that experience unpleasant objects, like dosa (i.e. all the paramattha dhammas that are object-predominance condition, ?rammana-adhipati paccaya). These dhammas are a condition, as object-predominance condition, only for kusala or akusala cittas, not for vip?ka cittas like seeing... touching. So the seven visaya r?pas, three of the four mah?-bh?ta (the r?pas impinging on the body-sense), vanno r?pa (impinging in the eye-sense) etc., attract the four n?ma khandhas of the k?ma plane, and conversely the four n?ma khandhas of the k?ma plane are attracted, bend towards, these r?pas (and towards other k?ma objects as well). The same applies to the cittas of the two jh?na planes, fine-material and immaterial, with their respective objects (kasinas). And also to the lokuttara plane, where the four n?ma khandas are the maggas citta and cetasikas (faultless dhammas) experiencing nibb?na, their only object. Alberto #107317 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:56 pm Subject: Re: Naama & ruupa szmicio Dear Alberto Nice to see you. > Sarah has drawn my attention to msg #106184, I'm posting some more comments on the subject. > > The main meaning of n?ma is that of naming, which only applies to the four n?ma khandhas, sa???, vedan?, sankh?ra, and vi???na (r?pas and nibb?na don't have naming capabilities, since they don't experience anything). L: naming seems ok. Best wishes Lukas #107318 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:35 pm Subject: Re: different mindstreams truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > ------------- > A: > I hope you don't accept nihilism, Ken. > ------------- > > No, I don't even know exactly what nihilism is. > > Some people might think the philosophy "everything ends at death" is similar to "everything ends at parinibbana." But it isn't similar at all. Until we understand that everything ends now - at this moment - we can't begin to understand how "everything ends at parinibbana." > > Ken H > Hi KenH, all, What I've meant by nihilism was the non-existence of things. We can talk how cars and trees don't really exist. But this doesn't alter the fact that one avoids driving into a tree. You think trees don't exist? Try walking into one. Similiar with different "mind streams". When someone attained Arhatship, someone else didn't. Someone drinking water doesn't cure your thirst. Etc. Awakening "doesn't fall out of blue sky". With metta, Alex #107319 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:37 pm Subject: Re: different mindstreams truth_aerator Dear Lukas, KenH, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Alex, Ken H, > > > >KH:What can you tell us about mind streams? If they can have names and >can do things (such as hope) how are they any different from selves? > > > > > > When Sariputta attained Arhatship, we did not. Devadatta's kamma isn't someone elses. > > > > I hope you don't accept nihilism, Ken. > > L: Do you remember flickering candle simile? (from Milinda >questions as I remember). There is no Personality, no Self, just >fleeting moments of minds that constitute this non-lasting >personality. > Right. But there ARE different cause-effect streams that are not mixed. > I like consider this. One moment such kind of personality, another time different personality. No Lukas just different moments of consciousness. Right. This wasn't other than what was intended. Conditions are different for different streams. With metta, Alex #107320 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight ashkenn2k ? Dear Alex >So what is the difference between micchasamadhi and samma-samadhi? >If we are all and always possess samadhi, then why did Buddha taught about reaching and training in samadhi? > >If lets say a person (like Devadatta) committed heinous crimes, does it follow that every citta of his has samadhi? > KO:? Yes you need concentration to do killng just like a hunter shooting a deer needs concentration to aim at the deer >What about cittas in hell realm? Does it possess samadhi? KO:?why not. if not how do one feel pain if concentration?fix on the pain ? > >> According to my understanding, the mind is always unified (in the >sense of having only one object). The impression of a unified mind >that lasts for a period of seconds is just a concept. > >>Going wild is also a concept. In reality, every citta is "one >pointed." > >Then how can the mind ever be restless and possess uddhacca cetasika? KO:? because it is not concentration that suppress restlessess.? Concentration suppress greed, passadhi cetasikas suppressed restlessness > >Restlessness and one-pointedness/ unified mind are mutually exclusive. KO:? Nope, let take an example, you are restless and impatient when waiting for someone for a?while, but you keep thinking on why the person is being late.? You are fixed on the why. cheers Ken O #107321 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:16 pm Subject: Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi pt, --------------- <. . .> pt: This is an interesting observation that I haven't considered before - it seems to connect annihilationism and eternalism together, though I'm not quite sure I understand how can an eternal soul exist if everything is considered illusory in the first place, because that would then make the soul illusory as well. ----------------- According to my understanding the two extremes are basically the same; they both depend on the existence of a soul. One sees the soul as existing forever, while the other sees it as existing temporarily. ---------------- <. . .> pt: I think that's how I understand the commentary quote as well - i.e. it deals with conditionality, hence my initial assumption that the meaning of the term "existence" or sabhava for a dhamma cannot be taken further than including conditionality and characteristics (individual and general). Adding something more than that would be leaning towards eternalism, while less than that (like denying individual characteristics) would be leaning towards annihilationism. ----------------- I haven't really considered the aspect of "adding more." The only way I have seen the question raised has been, "Are dhammas absolute realities?" The correct answer is yes, but other answers we have seen at DSG have ranged from, "No, they are only models invented by the Buddha for teaching purposes," to, "Yes, but they lack "own-being" and so they exist (at best) in a way that is similar to the way concepts exist." Ken H #107322 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > ? > Dear Alex > > > >So what is the difference between micchasamadhi and samma-samadhi? > >If we are all and always possess samadhi, then why did Buddha taught about reaching and training in samadhi? > > > >If lets say a person (like Devadatta) committed heinous crimes, does it follow that every citta of his has samadhi? > > > KO:? Yes you need concentration to do killng just like a hunter shooting a deer needs concentration to aim at the deer > > > >What about cittas in hell realm? Does it possess samadhi? > > KO:?why not. if not how do one feel pain if concentration?fix on the pain > > ? > > > >> According to my understanding, the mind is always unified (in the >sense of having only one object). The impression of a unified mind >that lasts for a period of seconds is just a concept. > > > >>Going wild is also a concept. In reality, every citta is "one >pointed." > > > >Then how can the mind ever be restless and possess uddhacca cetasika? > > KO:? because it is not concentration that suppress restlessess.? Concentration suppress greed, passadhi cetasikas suppressed restlessness > Passadhi is one of the conditions for samadhi and happens when one meditates and it is present in the umbrella term "concentration". "[5] For one enraptured at heart, the body grows calm and the mind grows calm (passambhati). When the body & mind of an monk enraptured at heart grow calm, then serenity as a factor for awakening (passaddhisambojjhango) becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[6] For one who is at ease ? his body calmed (Passaddhakayassa) ? the mind becomes concentrated (cittam samadhiyati). When the mind of one who is at ease ? his body calmed ? becomes concentrated, then concentration as a factor for awakening (samadhisambojjhango) becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html "Concentration, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for concentration? 'Happiness' should be the reply. "Happiness, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for happiness? 'Tranquillity' should be the reply. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html passadhi->sukha->samadhi Also in DN#2 insight knowledges is listed after 4th Jhana, and the wording does suggest that one uses jhanic or post jhanic mind for insight ""With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision." - DN2 ==================================================== Insight Knowledge "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' Just as if there were a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water ? eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects, and going through the middle of it was a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread ? and a man with good eyesight, taking it in his hand, were to reflect on it thus: 'This is a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water, eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects. And this, going through the middle of it, is a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread.' In the same way ? with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability ? the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html#gold "So too, bhikkhus, there are these five corruptions of the mind, corrupted by which the mind is neither malleable nor wieldy nor radiant but brittle and not properly concentrated for the destruction of the taints. What five? Sensual desire is a corruption of the mind, corrupted by which the mind is neither malleable nor wieldy nor radiant but brittle and not properly concentrated for the destruction of the taints. [Ill will is a corruption of the mind ? Sloth and torpor is a corruption of the mind ? Restlessness and worry is a corruption of the mind ? Doubt is a corruption of the mind ?] These are the five corruptions of the mind, corrupted by which the mind is neither malleable nor wieldy nor radiant but brittle and not properly concentrated for the destruction of the taints." -SN 46.33(3) Corruptions With metta, Alex #107323 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 3:17 am Subject: Re: Little selves? ptaus1 Hi KenH (and KenO), Thanks for your comments. > KH: According to my understanding the two extremes are basically the same; they both depend on the existence of a soul. One sees the soul as existing forever, while the other sees it as existing temporarily. pt: Okay, that makes sense. > KH: I haven't really considered the aspect of "adding more." The only way I have seen the question raised has been, "Are dhammas absolute realities?" The correct answer is yes, but other answers we have seen at DSG have ranged from, "No, they are only models invented by the Buddha for teaching purposes," to, "Yes, but they lack "own-being" and so they exist (at best) in a way that is similar to the way concepts exist." pt: Out of interest, what quote do you consider most definitive when it comes to concepts not having the characteristics (individual or general) and not being an object of vipassana? Because, KenO seems to have said a few times lately (apologies if I misunderstood you KenO) that a concept can be the object during a moment of insight just like a dhamma can. Thanks. Best wishes #107324 From: "philip" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 3:39 am Subject: Appamada in paramattha terms? philofillet Hi all I read some stirring words on appamada in SN 3 today. They made me wonder how appamada is taught in paramattha terms. It's different from sati, I feel. To be honest, my prejudiced view is that it might be an example of how not all wholesome mind states/atttitudes were meant by the Buddha to be reduced to a single momentary dhamma. But for the time being, if someone could tell me how abhidhamma explains it I would appreciate it. (I will read your explanations, and leave my thanks in advance.) Metta, Phil #107325 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 12:00 am Subject: Accept the Actual Facts! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: This World is Messed Up! The Buddha once told a deity: This world is suffering from Death, Troubled by ageing, decay and sickness, Wounded by the Dart of constant Craving ! Always is it burning with Desire and Lust... This world is addicted to Delight and Pleasure, Since dragged around by this urge and longing, Craving must be cut, to break free from bondage and reach the only absolute freedom: Nibba-na... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 40 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html <...> Freedom = Cut Craving! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sama-hita _/\_ Sri #107326 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 7:21 am Subject: How to be a good guy? szmicio Dear friends, Phil I was at the party today night and we had some situations. I realized now that that was not good. How to have more right speach. I've found I had a lot of bad speach. How to change it? This is very easy and pleasure to have bad speach, but how to change this, how to have good peacful to other speach? Phil and all how to have more right speach? How to train in this. Can you tell please how you do this? Is it good to have some renunciation? What are the conditions for renunciation? Best wishes Lukas #107327 From: Ken O Date: Sat May 1, 2010 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ashkenn2k Dear pt even though concept exist during thinking, that does not mean it cannot be an object of panna.? Panna does not differetiate whether an object is imaginery or not, it penetrates the 3 characteristics of any object.? The believe that just because concept has not efficiacy?and thus?cannot be used as a development is groundless.? Why when an object?comes to the mind, it is just an object, it is the nama that experience it and not the object.?? To be brutally frank, when Ken H said concept cannot be used for satipatthana, he cannot show the textual support why because he is not clear how dhamma works.? If he is clear, he would not said such things as the suttas, Abhidhamma text and commentaries have been consistent in this aspect?that concepts could be used to develop panna.?? So the issue is not whether concept exist or not, whether it helps to develop panna or not.? Development of satipatthana is about understanding the three characteristics and not whether the object is concept or not.? On the other hand,?the understanding of dhamma is important as it helps us to understand more about the reality that we are living.???With this understanding that?it is not the object that is the cause of the mental proliferation, it is dhamma that arise with the object that is the mental proliferation, one live in dhammas.? One slowly develop the?understanding of dhamma like craving when it arise and not concern about what object it is because any object can cause the arisen of aksuala dhamma.? Not being sexist, a beautiful lady is just a beautiful lady, it is the craving of this beautiful lady that is the dhamma we should be concern with and not the beautiful lady.? or we could say this beautiful lady is impermenant, subject to old age, whats there to cling to., or we break them down into 32 parts, where is there a lady in the first place.? or we could use nama and rupa method, it is just thinking or seeing.? So it depends, as long as it helps to understand the 3 characteristics, any method is useful :-)? cheers kind regards Ken O #107328 From: Ken O Date: Sat May 1, 2010 8:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight ashkenn2k Dear Alex >> > >Passadhi is one of the conditions for samadhi and happens when one meditates and it is present in the umbrella term "concentration" . > >"[5] For one enraptured at heart, the body grows calm and the mind grows calm (passambhati) . When the body & mind of an monk enraptured at heart grow calm, then serenity as a factor for awakening (passaddhisambojjha ngo) becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. > >"[6] For one who is at ease - his body calmed (Passaddhakayassa) - the mind becomes concentrated (cittam samadhiyati) . When the mind of one who is at ease - his body calmed - becomes concentrated, then concentration as a factor for awakening (samadhisambojjhang o) becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. >http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.118. than.html KO: your original statment is that Restlessness and one-pointedness/ unified mind are mutually exclusive. I said it is not because passadhi suppresses restlessness. When one meditate, it does not mean there could be passadhi because one could take aksuala as kusala. It is not meditation that develops insight, it is understanding of dhamma that develop insight. You keep looking at concentration, you forget that there are other factors and without mindfulness, there is no concentration. Without mindfuless as a guard, passadhi to suppress restlessness, one would not be able to develop concentration. Without understanding dhamma, even if one attain jhanas, it is just only condition the birth in Brahman and not enlightement. This is clearly show in the suttas also. > >"So too, bhikkhus, there are these five corruptions of the mind, corrupted by which the mind is neither malleable nor wieldy nor radiant but brittle and not properly concentrated for the destruction of the taints. What five? Sensual desire is a corruption of the mind, corrupted by which the mind is neither malleable nor wieldy nor radiant but brittle and not properly concentrated for the destruction of the taints. [Ill will is a corruption of the mind … Sloth and torpor is a corruption of the mind … Restlessness and worry is a >corruption of the mind … Doubt is a corruption of the mind …] These are the five corruptions of the mind, corrupted by which the mind is neither malleable nor wieldy nor radiant but brittle and not properly concentrated for the destruction of the taints." >-SN 46.33(3) Corruptions > KO: So without insight, there is no way to get rid of the five corruptions. kind regards Ken O #107329 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 1, 2010 8:57 am Subject: Sangiiti sutta series. nilovg Dear Connie, Scott and all, We have almost finished the Fives, and that took us a long time. We are now only half through. I liked this project and I do not find it good not to finish what one has begun, but because of necessity I have to cut down on my projects. The old cart gets rusty. It is a good thing there is a new generation, like Kevin, who can take things over. So, after having finished the Fives, I will discontinue with this series. Nina. #107330 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 10:37 am Subject: Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi pt, ---- <. . .> pt: > Out of interest, what quote do you consider most definitive when it comes to concepts not having the characteristics (individual or general) and not being an object of vipassana? Because, KenO seems to have said a few times lately (apologies if I misunderstood you KenO) that a concept can be the object during a moment of insight just like a dhamma can. ---- I don't know if any particular quote will settle the issue. As I read them they are all about momentary dhammas, not about lasting entities. But, as some people read them, they are all about lasting entities, and not about momentary dhammas. Take this one, for example: "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found." (Yamaka Sutta) That was spoken *by* the Tathaagata wasn't it? So the meaning is that satipatthana doesn't know concepts such as "Tathagaata" it only knows nama and rupa. But some people will argue around that. Ken H #107331 From: "sarah" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 10:56 am Subject: Re: Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality sarahprocter... Dear Alex, #106645 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > A:> I have read an interesting lecture where the famous teacher has said something like: "don't be aware of sound or color, as this leads only to concentration. Be aware of hearing or seeing, this will lead to vipassana instead." > > ... > > S: This is all wrong view and not the path as taught by the Buddha > > ... > >A: The idea as I understand it is that if one focuses on color, then it turns into kasina meditation (which is one of those practices that supposedly doesn't lead to awakening, yet the pragmatic Buddha who never tried to teach what is useless for Nibbana, taught it for some strange reason known only to Him.) .... S: No one can choose what to be aware of. The development of satipatthana is the development of detachment - being aware of whatever reality appears now. If one just focuses on any object, it will just lead to more wrong concentration focussing on that object. .... > > A:> Well, it leads to certain questions: > > a) What is the difference between sound & color vs rupa (as in namarupa)? > > ... > > S: I don't understand the question. What do you mean here by >"namarupa"? I think the point is seriously erroneous from the start, >so will pause here. > >A: What some vipassana teachers say is that one shouldn't take conceptual "samatha" objects (such as color, used in color-kasinas for example) for meditation as one needs to study the ever-changing namarupa with its 3 characteristics. OK. But all things, including Samatha subjects, are included in namarupa - and it never occurred to me that constructed objects are permanent, un-caused and ultimately happy. .... S: Leaving aside the particular meaning of namarupa in D.O., namas refer to all cittas and cetasikas, all realities which can experience an object. So seeing is a nama, like, dislike are namas. Rupas refer to those realities which cannot experience an object. So visible object is a rupa, sound is a rupa, hardness is a rupa. Almost all the samatha subjects are concetps, not realities. Therefore, they are not namas or rupas. When one looks to "take" any object, it is not understanding, not detachment from what is conditioned now. ... > >S:... When the object of citta >is not a reality, it's a concept. > >A: Aren't most of 28 derived rupas, concepts? ... S: No. By definition, all rupas are realities. There are 4 primary rupas and 28 derived rupas which cannot arise without these primary rupas. They are all realities, although now we are using concepts to refer to them. They have characteristics which can be directly known by developed right understanding. ... >A: For example: gender (itthibhava rupa or purisabhava rupa). It is conceptual if we view from non-conceptual POV. It cannot be seen, heard, smelled, tasted or touched. It is convention put on certain kinds shapes (mental activity since eye sees only color) and is an idea "a man, or a women". .... S: Regardless of what concepts there are about men, women, shapes and so on, there are still the masculinity and femininity rupas arising and falling away from birth. If it weren't for these rupas, there'd be no ideas about "man" and "woman". Yes, like all the rupas other than the seven experienced through the senses, they cannot be seen, heard, smelled, tasted or touched. They can, however, be experienced and known through the mind-door by the very wise. .... >As to cognized color, sound, smell, taste, touch - there is nothing given in those bare cognitions that differentiates one gender from another. .... S: When cittas experience these rupas, there's no idea of "man" or "woman". However, the visible objects, the sounds and so on are not the same. The sound of a man's voice is different from the souond of a woman's voice even though only sound is heard. The rupas in a kalapa all condition each other. Kamma conditions the sound of the voice and other kammaja rupas, so a very kind person may have a harsh-sounding voice and vice versa. ... > Similar with some other rupas (like kaya-vinnatti & vaci-vinnatti rupa). They appear to me to be conceptual, requiring mental interpretation and lots of concepts. ... S: These are asabhava rupas which means they don't have a characteristic that can be commonly known. So, I agree that for us, they can only be known conceptually. However, the Buddha described all realities, all realities that he directly understood and therefore taught about for the wise to know. Even conceptually now, it's helpful to understand that rupas are conditioned by cittas when we wish to convey a meaning through body or speech. .... >If you don't know the language of the other person unemotionally speaking to you, then you can't understand what the other person says to you. The same gesture can mean different thing in different cultures (sometimes a common gesture in one culture can be seen as an insult in another). ... S: True, but as you implied above, only visible object is seen and only sound is heard. The rest is thinking about concepts depending on many factors such as culture. Does this help? You touched on many topics here... Metta Sarah ====== #107332 From: "sarah" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 11:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realites. Concept of ultimate reality sarahprocter... Dear Robin, #106646 (As you'll have seen, I've got very behind with replies - common for me!) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" wrote: > > S: I don't understand the question. What do you mean here by "namarupa"? I think the point is seriously erroneous from the start, so will pause here. ... > Can you explain namarupa? Does nama mean the same as name, an appellation? I think the ma is from man, indicating mind or brain? So naman, or name, is a provisional designation created by the mind? .... S: Usually "namarupa" is used in Dependent Origination as in "vi~n~naana paccaya naama-ruupa". In this context, nama refers to the cetasikas (mental factors) accompanying vinnana, which refers here to patisandhi (birth) citta and subsequent vipaka (result of kamma) cittas. Rupa in this context, refers to all rupas conditioned by kamma, such as the sense-bases. In other contexts, namas refer to all (mental) phenomena which can experience an object, while rupas refer to all (physical) phenomena which cannot experience an object. Yes, n some contexts nama can refer to names or designations. Whilst I appreciate your careful study of language and etymology, we have to remember that the Buddha used common words of the day, such as nama, and gave them special meanings to refer to realities. So many terms in common language, even in Buddhist countries today such as Thailand or Sri Lanka, do not have the same meaning as used by the Buddha. ... > I understand rupa means form, which can be concrete or abstract? By abstrsct, I mean that we can 'see' form in our mind; like the mental imagery in a poem. ... S: In this case, the imagery or the 'abstract', is a concept, not rupa. The imagery is based on rupas, i.e. if no rupas were experienced, there's be no imagery about what is seen, heard and so on. Rupas are always realities, not imagery. ... >I would take form to be the general shape, color, texture, and so on; or a set of characteristics that we perceive as an individual object. ... S: As soon as there is an idea of shape or an individual object, it's a concept, not a rupa. Seeing just sees visible object or colour, hearing just hears sound, body consciousness just experiences tangible object, not a set of characteristics, though I may be misunderstanding you here. .... >The Chinese word for Rupa literally means color, fwiw. I think the Indic word means shape. .... S: In Pali, rupa is also used for visible object, vanna for colour. ... > Is rupa an approximate synonym of kaya? ... S: That's a very good question. Kaya can refer to the concept of the body or it can refer to the rupas of the body, commonly taken for 'body' such as in the Satipatthana Sutta. In some contexts it is also used to refer to the cetasikas, 'the body' of mental factors accompanying cittas. So we always need to consider the context carefully. Appreciating all your comments and considerations as usual. Metta Sarah ==== #107333 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 11:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi pt and Ken O, I didn't realise I was butting in until I looked again at the address. Now that I have written a reply I may as well post it. :-) ---------- KO: > even though concept exist during thinking, that does not mean it cannot be an object of panna.? Panna does not differetiate whether an object is imaginery or not, it penetrates the 3 characteristics of any object.? ----------- Perhaps you can tell me the characteristics of a flying purple elephant? ----------------- KO: > The believe that just because concept has not efficacy?and thus?cannot be used as a development is groundless.? ----------------- If illusory objects had characteristics then those characteristics would be equally illusory. -------------------------- KO: > Why when an object?comes to the mind, it is just an object, it is the nama that experience it and not the object.?? To be brutally frank, when Ken H said concept cannot be used for satipatthana, he cannot show the textual support why because he is not clear how dhamma works.? If he is clear, he would not said such things as the suttas, Abhidhamma text and commentaries have been consistent in this aspect?that concepts could be used to develop panna.?? ---------------------------- Nothing can be *used for* satipatthana. A dhamma can be the *object of* satipatthana, but that is a different matter. There is no using - no method - involved, just right understanding of whatever dhamma-arammana may have arisen. ------------------------------------ KO: > So the issue is not whether concept exist or not, whether it helps to develop panna or not.? Development of satipatthana is about understanding the three characteristics and not whether the object is concept or not. ------------------------------------ Learning the characteristics of non-existent objects will lead nowhere. Or maybe it will lead to madness, but it certainly won't lead to the end of dukkha. ------------------------------------------------- KO: > ? On the other hand,?the understanding of dhamma is important as it helps us to understand more about the reality that we are living.???With this understanding that?it is not the object that is the cause of the mental proliferation, it is dhamma that arise with the object that is the mental proliferation, one live in dhammas.? One slowly develop the?understanding of dhamma like craving when it arise and not concern about what object it is because any object can cause the arisen of aksuala dhamma.? ------------------------------------------------ Citta doesn't select its object (arammana). If a presently arisen dhamma becomes the arammana then there is a potential for satipatthana. If a concept of a dhamma becomes the arammana then there is a potential for pariyatti (right theoretical understanding). If some other concept becomes the arammana, then satipatthana is not an option at that time. ------------------------- KO: > Not being sexist, a beautiful lady is just a beautiful lady, it is the craving of this beautiful lady that is the dhamma we should be concern with and not the beautiful lady.? ------------------------- There is need for concern, or for choosing arammanas. Nor is their any possibility of choosing; dhammas just flow on, uncontrolled. --------------------------------- KO: > or we could say this beautiful lady is impermenant, subject to old age, whats there to cling to, --------------------------------- Ask an old man that! :-) The point is, anyone can tell you "people get old and die." Only a Buddha can tell you "conditioned dhammas are anicca dukkha and anatta." There is a difference. ------------------------------------------ KO: > or we break them down into 32 parts, where is there a lady in the first place.? or we could use nama and rupa method, it is just thinking or seeing.? So it depends, as long as it helps to understand the 3 characteristics, any method is useful :-)? ------------------------------------------- Methods are not the way. They appeal only to lobha. Right understanding has no use for them. Ken H #107334 From: "sarah" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 11:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is "Imagination" from the Abhidhamma perspective? sarahprocter... Hi Colette, #106642 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ksheri3" wrote: > > S: Yes, this is a good point. All the imagination, all the dreaming is accumulated in sankhara khandha. > > > > colette: "accumulated in", how about "encapsulated in", or "packaged in" (don't touch that last one, for the time being, packaged in, I'll get to that later in my meditation), but esentially you're suggesting an "aggregate" is being established or already is established and is being stored. ... S: I'm suggesting that each moment of thinking now conditions more of such thinking. Each moment of anger conditions more anger. Each moment of kindness conditions more kindness. Each moment of wisdom conditions more wisdom. The anger, the kindness and the wisdom are all "sankhara khandhas" which "build up", conditioning on and on. However, the consciousness with anger, kindness or wisdom falls away as soon as it has arisen. So nothing is stored. Perhaps we can think of waves, arising and falling away, but a certain "velocity" accumulates. Each wave has an effect. ... >HARK, do I hear a person, in the distance, crying out "Alaya-Vijnana"? What situation could this poor person be in to be crying out so painfully? I wonder/ponder, is this person fallen into a crevice and cannot draw himself/herself up out of the crevice, or is the cry more of a moan, a reminder, as if stated by the fantasy creature called THE GHOST OF CHRISTMAS PAST? .... S: Very witty! Yes, alaya-vijnana, or the idea of a store, is a crevice not to fall into or a fantasy of a past ghost:-) Don't go there! .... >Does the Alaya-Vijnana come properly labeled i.e. "keep in a cool dry place" or is it like a mason's jar where Home Cookin' is the ritual ... S: Think of alaya as the desire for the cookie jar... ... > Actually I'm trying to relate with Nina's past envolvement in this thread and the rest of the gang soooo far ahead of me in this concept since I'm trying to create the wording which manifests the Abhidharma's procedure, in all of the minds participating here. Again, it's just my theories about the MIND-ONLY SCHOOL's conepts, as well as a little "chaos magik", and a little orthodox dogma. .... S: Better to leave aside the "mind-only school" and "chaos magik" if you wish to understand the Abhidhamma. ... > Hope ya don't mind! ... S: Glad to see your interest in the topic! Metta Sarah ======= #107335 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 1, 2010 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and pt) - In a message dated 5/1/2010 6:40:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi pt, ---- <. . .> pt: > Out of interest, what quote do you consider most definitive when it comes to concepts not having the characteristics (individual or general) and not being an object of vipassana? Because, KenO seems to have said a few times lately (apologies if I misunderstood you KenO) that a concept can be the object during a moment of insight just like a dhamma can. ---- I don't know if any particular quote will settle the issue. As I read them they are all about momentary dhammas, not about lasting entities. But, as some people read them, they are all about lasting entities, and not about momentary dhammas. Take this one, for example: "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found." (Yamaka Sutta) -------------------------------------------------- Is that which is "not to be found," what you call a "lasting entity"? One can't have it both ways - that aggregations (such as people) which are not in truth and reality to be found yet also lasting entities. Aggregations of phenomena are spoken of as if they were entities, but, as individuals they are concept-only and mere thought and speech conventions. And even the namas and rupas are aggregates that are matters of convention. They are simply finer-scale aggregations. Ultimately, all reification is error. The Buddha taught namas and rupas as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. He taught them as evanescent puffs of nothingness with no reality to them, and to be abandoned. -------------------------------------------------- That was spoken *by* the Tathaagata wasn't it? So the meaning is that satipatthana doesn't know concepts such as "Tathagaata" it only knows nama and rupa. But some people will argue around that. ---------------------------------------------- Wisdom is not to see "realities" but to see *through* things, coming to know their *unreality*. I back this up with some sutta quotes at the end. --------------------------------------------- Ken H =================================== With metta, Howard /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) - - - - - - - - - /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none - such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ and /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," - such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) - - - - - - - - - and most especially: - - - - - - - - - - /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick - this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #107336 From: "philip" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 1:08 pm Subject: Re: How to be a good guy? philofillet Hi Lukas Thanks for inlcuding me especially. I feel confident that you are in fact a good guy, your consistent concern about the way you behave with people makes me feel confident about that.I feel confident that you are not content to think "this is all anatta, it has fallen away" as a means of being placated about bad behaviour. Could I ask you to refer back to the post I wrote when you were concerned about your anger? I guess it was a couple of months ago. I don't think I would answer much differently now than I did then! Metta, Phil p.s Today I shouted at my wife. Afterwards, there was consideration of how it was just accumulated dhammas at work, anatta etc. That is true. But it doesn't change the fact that shouting is bad, good people don't shout, I will aspire to be a good person who doesn't shout, and will follow the Buddha's advice in the suttanta about how to be that kind of person. And I am confident I am coming closer day to day to being that sort of good person. When there is failure, there is reflection on anatta and so on, so remorse is not accumulated, remorse doesn't help. Good luck, let's just keep listening to the Buddha, we'll be ok. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear friends, Phil > > I was at the party today night and we had some situations. > > #107337 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 1:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + jonoabb Hi Howard (107285) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > However, as regards the relationship between the hindrances and the > development of liberating insight, the rule is across-the-board: Suspension > of hindrances is not just supportive but *necessary*. Consider the > following, for example, pointed out by Ven Nyanaponika: > =============== Regarding your comment that suspension of the hindrances is necessary for the development of liberative insight, I'd like to understand more about what you mean by that. By suspension of the hindrances are you referring to the suspension that results from the attainment of jhana only, or do you include any moment at which the hindrances are absent (e.g., any moment of kusala consciousness)? By liberative insight are you referring to actual enlightenment (of a particular level, perhaps), or do you include all levels of satipatthana (as described in the Satipatthana Sutta)? > =============== > There are five impurities of gold impaired by which it is not pliant and > wieldy, lacks radiance, is brittle and cannot be wrought well. What are these > five impurities? Iron, copper, tin, lead and silver. > But if the gold has been freed from these five impurities, then it will be > plaint and wieldy, radiant and firm, and can be wrought well. Whatever > ornaments one wishes to make from it, be it a diadem, earrings, a necklace or a > golden chain, it will serve that purpose. > Similarly, there are five impurities of the mind impaired by which the mind > is not pliant and wieldy, lacks radiant lucidity and firmness, and cannot > concentrate well upon the eradication of the taints (asava). What are > these five impurities? They are: sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, > restlessness and remorse, and sceptical doubt. > But if the mind is freed of these five impurities, it will be pliant and > wieldy, will have radiant lucidity and firmness, and will concentrate well > upon the eradication of the taints. Whatever state realizable by the higher > mental faculties one may direct the mind to, one will in each case acquire > the capacity of realization, if the (other) conditions are fulfilled. > ?" AN 5:23 > > =============== Thanks for the sutta quote. I do not read this passage as necessarily referring to freedom from the hindrances that is the result of suppression by jhana citta. In the texts, 'the mind' is a momentary phenomenon and so is the idea of the mind being freed of akusala. Furthermore, the sutta does not say that there can be no development of the path if the mind is not freed of the hindrances. What it says is that when the mind is not freed of the hindrances it cannot *concentrate well* upon the eradication of the taints. This does not equate to saying that such concentration is impossible. Jon #107338 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 1:55 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + jonoabb Hi Alex (107286) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > > As far as matters of doctrine are concerned, it's not a case of one >rule for some individuals and another rule for others. Either the >temporary suppression of hindrances is a prerequisite for the >development of insight or it isn't ;-)) > > It is a prerequisite. With hindrances, insight is just thinking & restlessness. > > =============== OK, you have clarified that in your view the temporary suppression of the hindrances is a prerequisite for the development of insight. I have similar questions for you as I put to Howard in a post sent just a few minutes ago: - By temporary suppression of the hindrances are you referring to the suppression that results from the attainment of jhana only? - By the development of insight are you referring to a specific level of insight, or do you include all levels of satipatthana (as described in the Satipatthana Sutta)? > =============== > > Did the Buddha himself give any similes/analogies comparing the >development of the path to the acquisition of conventional skills? > > OFTEN! He used many similes, > > "Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite ? the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html > =============== I agree that this is an analogy regarding the acquisition of conventional skills. However, it's not at all clear to me that the analogy is being used to describe the development of the path by a form of 'practice'. A translation of this sutta is found in the Bhikkhu Bodhi AN anthology (although the terminology used in his translation varies slightly from the ati version). BB notes that the commentary does not explain the analogy. He suggests that "the practice on the straw man is like the insight contemplation of the aggregates while the felling of the large body is like the destruction of the taints by penetrating the deathless element". If this explanation is correct, then the analogy describes how the development of the path leads to enlightenment, rather than how a 'practice' leads to the development of the path > =============== > Another simile, the Acrobat > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.019.than.html > =============== Sorry, but I don't see the relevance of this sutta. Would you mind explaining how it relates to our discussion. Thanks. > =============== > But isn't it the DSG teaching of thinking & considering until the path appears and does everything? > =============== Nobody has ever said that the Buddha's teaching is an instruction to "think and consider until the path appears and does everything". > =============== > And insight will not occur unless one actually does something and has material (such as Jhana) to examine. > =============== There are dhammas arising now that are suitable material for insight. There's no need to 'create' suitable dhammas. Jon #107339 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 1, 2010 2:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? nilovg Dear Philip, Op 1-mei-2010, om 5:39 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I read some stirring words on appamada in SN 3 today. They made me > wonder how appamada is taught in paramattha terms. It's different > from sati, I feel. To be honest, my prejudiced view is that it > might be an example of how not all wholesome mind states/atttitudes > were meant by the Buddha to be reduced to a single momentary > dhamma. But for the time being, if someone could tell me how > abhidhamma explains it I would appreciate it. -------- N: Lack of mindfulness, forgetfulness arises with each akusala citta. Whereas sati accompanies each kusala citta. We consider here moments, moments of citta. What else is there but citta arising and falling away each moment. We have to learn the difference between the momets of sati and the moments of forgetfulness. Then we shall better understand the meaning of heedfulness and forgetfulness. They arise because of their own conditions. There is no self who can make heedfulness arise. When the Buddha encourages people telling them to act as if their head is on fire, it will help people not being forgetful, and that means, not being forgetful of the reality of this moment, such as thinking about heedfulness. Nina. #107340 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 1, 2010 2:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How to be a good guy? nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 1-mei-2010, om 9:21 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > How to have more right speach. I've found I had a lot of bad > speach. How to change it? > > This is very easy and pleasure to have bad speach, but how to > change this, how to have good peacful to other speach? > > Phil and all how to have more right speach? How to train in this. > Can you tell please how you do this? ------- N: The citta, kusala or akusala, is the source of the speech you utter. Through satipa.t.thaana you will know the different cittas that arise. It is ignorance of realities that conditions a lot of akusala. You cannot immediately change your habits, but gradually pa~n~naa can see the disadvantage of akusala. It arises because of conditions. We do not know what will arise the next moment, cittas arise and fall away so rapidly, kusala cittas and akusala cittas alternate. Bhante Dhammadharo: -------- > > L:Is it good to have some renunciation? What are the conditions for > renunciation? ------- N: The commentary says that all kinds of kusala are nekkhamma, renunciation. You renounce your own pleasure and comfort, you renounde what is akusala. ------- Nina. #107341 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 1, 2010 1:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/1/2010 9:54:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (107285) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > However, as regards the relationship between the hindrances and the > development of liberating insight, the rule is across-the-board: Suspension > of hindrances is not just supportive but *necessary*. Consider the > following, for example, pointed out by Ven Nyanaponika: > =============== Regarding your comment that suspension of the hindrances is necessary for the development of liberative insight, I'd like to understand more about what you mean by that. By suspension of the hindrances are you referring to the suspension that results from the attainment of jhana only, or do you include any moment at which the hindrances are absent (e.g., any moment of kusala consciousness)? ---------------------------------------------------------- I don't care when or how they are suspended. I do suspect that *full suspension of all of them* only occurs at special times such as the arising of insight upon hearing a teaching for which the mind is "ready" and upon entry to jhana. In general, I believe that moments of suspension of hindrances and ongoing diminishing of the power of hindrances are requisite for preparation of the mind for awakening. ------------------------------------------------------- By liberative insight are you referring to actual enlightenment (of a particular level, perhaps), or do you include all levels of satipatthana (as described in the Satipatthana Sutta)? ------------------------------------------------------- I'd say both, but I mainly had in mind insight that leads to a stage of awakening (stream entry, etc). Lesser insights, however, do lead in the right direction and build towards "the big ones" to paraphrase U.S. West coast earthquake talk. I certainly believe that even lesser, early insights are preceded and accompanied by suspension of hindrances. A stage of awakening, of course, is also accompanied by uprooting of some defilements and the weakening of others. ------------------------------------------------------- > =============== > There are five impurities of gold impaired by which it is not pliant and > wieldy, lacks radiance, is brittle and cannot be wrought well. What are these > five impurities? Iron, copper, tin, lead and silver. > But if the gold has been freed from these five impurities, then it will be > plaint and wieldy, radiant and firm, and can be wrought well. Whatever > ornaments one wishes to make from it, be it a diadem, earrings, a necklace or a > golden chain, it will serve that purpose. > Similarly, there are five impurities of the mind impaired by which the mind > is not pliant and wieldy, lacks radiant lucidity and firmness, and cannot > concentrate well upon the eradication of the taints (asava). What are > these five impurities? They are: sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, > restlessness and remorse, and sceptical doubt. > But if the mind is freed of these five impurities, it will be pliant and > wieldy, will have radiant lucidity and firmness, and will concentrate well > upon the eradication of the taints. Whatever state realizable by the higher > mental faculties one may direct the mind to, one will in each case acquire > the capacity of realization, if the (other) conditions are fulfilled. > â€" AN 5:23 > > =============== Thanks for the sutta quote. I do not read this passage as necessarily referring to freedom from the hindrances that is the result of suppression by jhana citta. In the texts, 'the mind' is a momentary phenomenon and so is the idea of the mind being freed of akusala. Furthermore, the sutta does not say that there can be no development of the path if the mind is not freed of the hindrances. What it says is that when the mind is not freed of the hindrances it cannot *concentrate well* upon the eradication of the taints. This does not equate to saying that such concentration is impossible. --------------------------------------------------------------- No, but the material I'm using here as a closing quote says that without suspension of the hindrances, "a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision" is impossible. --------------------------------------------------------------- Jon ================================ With metta, Howard Hindrances /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains - going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it - and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #107342 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 9:43 pm Subject: Re: How to be a good guy? szmicio Dear Phil I thank you so much for you answer. I will try to change. This is really good to have a wise friends. Can you help me more to develop more kusala? > p.s Today I shouted at my wife. Afterwards, there was consideration of how it was just accumulated dhammas at work, anatta etc. That is true. But it doesn't change the fact that shouting is bad, good people don't shout, I will aspire to be a good person who doesn't shout, and will follow the Buddha's advice in the suttanta about how to be that kind of person. And I am confident I am coming closer day to day to being that sort of good person. When there is failure, there is reflection on anatta and so on, so remorse is not accumulated, remorse doesn't help. Good luck, let's just keep listening to the Buddha, we'll be ok. L: I forgot Buddha teachings about kusala. I will try to be good. Best wishes Lukas #107343 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How to be a good guy? szmicio Dear Nina, thank you for Bhante Dhammadhara words. Very helpful. But now I feel like I have to change my behaviour. This doesnt lead to good way. B. Dhammadhara is right but how can I change my behaviour. maybe Phil can help me. > > L:Is it good to have some renunciation? What are the conditions for > > renunciation? > ------- > N: The commentary says that all kinds of kusala are nekkhamma, > renunciation. You renounce your own pleasure and comfort, you > renounde what is akusala. > ------- L: Nina this is very true, but what can I say now, no renunciation. Especially when I am not reading. How to not harm other people? I forgot this is very important. Best wishes Lukas #107344 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 10:00 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + truth_aerator Hi Jon, Sarah, all, >J: Hi Alex > > (107286) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > > As far as matters of doctrine are concerned, it's not a case of one >rule for some individuals and another rule for others. Either the >temporary suppression of hindrances is a prerequisite for the >development of insight or it isn't ;-)) > > > > It is a prerequisite. With hindrances, insight is just thinking & restlessness. > > > > =============== > > OK, you have clarified that in your view the temporary suppression of the hindrances is a prerequisite for the development of insight. I have similar questions for you as I put to Howard in a post sent just a few minutes ago: > > - By temporary suppression of the hindrances are you referring to >the suppression that results from the attainment of jhana only? For some.most individuals Jhana, and perhaps lots of it may be required. There were very gifted disciples such as Bahiya who were so ready that they needed a short paragraph to to go from good worldling to Arhat. Obviously it is not the case for most of us. I (and many others, I am sure) have read and considered 100x the amount of what was needed for some to become an Arhat. So information is not what we lack, IMHO. Actual experience and skill in applying what is learnt, is. IMHO. > - By the development of insight are you referring to a specific >level of insight, or do you include all levels of satipatthana (as >described in the Satipatthana Sutta)? Prior to direct experience all insight is just concepts. Even if it is worded in paramattha sacca terms. While it is true that the awakening moment or nanas theoretically could occur in ordinary activities, it doesn't mean that the ordinary activities were sole and sufficient causes for the insight. As I've stated before, a person may have done meditation (with right conceptual views) for 24/7 prior to the awakening experience while cooking. Or the person may have had lots of accumulations from previous lives so all that was required was an expert guidance of the Buddha. I am also sure that meeting Buddha face to face and having Him give you personalized instruction in your own language and in a way suitable to you, was something very special in itself as well. We don't have this luxury or the teachers with such a skill as Buddha Himself. It may be the case that those miracle stories of instant and easy awakening happened either to those people who have already done the hard work, and/or to those who have met Buddha in person. Unfortunately we in our circumstances have to do more, not less. I would not be surprised if we have more defilements than many of people who met the Buddha. So we need more samatha-ing of them for Buddha's teaching to fall on fertile soil. Not just that, but Jhana is very wholesome and meritorious thing. And merit is also very important for us. > > > =============== > > > Did the Buddha himself give any similes/analogies comparing the >development of the path to the acquisition of conventional skills? > > > > OFTEN! He used many similes, > > > > "Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite ? the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html > > =============== > > I agree that this is an analogy regarding the acquisition of >conventional skills. However, it's not at all clear to me that the >analogy is being used to describe the development of the path by a >form of 'practice'. To start with, no one practices. It is nama that does it, and all of that is conditioned (but not fatalistically predetermined!). You cultivate and develop a skill at letting go of tanha by seeing anicca, dukkha, anatta - moment by moment. At first it is just temporary suppression, or substitution of opposites. However as this happens more and more often, the hindrances and avijja is weakened. Like in a ring you generally can't knock out an opponent with one super punch (unless he is super weak and you are super strong). You either wear him down with many punches, or you attack him until you find an opportunity and deliver a knockout blow. > A translation of this sutta is found in the Bhikkhu Bodhi AN anthology (although the terminology used in his translation varies slightly from the ati version). BB notes that the commentary does not explain the analogy. He suggests that "the practice on the straw man is like the insight contemplation of the aggregates while the felling of the large body is like the destruction of the taints by penetrating the deathless element". > How are you going to get insight if the hindrances overpower you and cloud that which is seen? As Sarah has said: >"S: No one can choose what to be aware of. The development of >satipatthana is the development of detachment - being aware of >whatever reality appears now." When one is overpowered by hindrances, it is they that are aware of phenomena in an unwholesome way. When Jhana occurs, which requires and is expression of panna, the awareness is of refined kusala kind and the mind is pliant and capable of seeing insight. How are you going to see the dukkha of 5 aggregates other than by super mindfulness achieved only after Jhana and by comparison of one state vs the other? BTW, in one sutta (somewhere in AN) the Buddha did say that Jhanas are a sort of Nibbana here and now. Jhanas give a preview of what it means to "let go of craving and concern for 5 aggregates" from which wisdom can eventually learn through direct experience the benefit of letting go and cessation. Again, Jon, I am sure that you and many people here know much more than it takes to be an Arahant. Then why aren't you one? Perhaps the mind is overpowered by hindrances that blind it, and the knowledge simply enters one ear and escapes from the other. Perhaps mindfulness in daily life is only good enough for daily life? One can't become an expert swimmer through reading books alone... If one can't knock out hindrances for a short amount of time, what makes you think that they can be knocked out permanently? >S: Almost all the samatha subjects are concetps, not realities. >Therefore, they are not namas or rupas. When one looks to "take" any >object, it is not understanding, not detachment from what is >conditioned now. The namarupa happening now is "an object" of Jhana. So in this way it is not different from "vipassana". There isn't anything other than vinnana&namarupa. With metta, Alex #107345 From: "sandahaung" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 3:56 pm Subject: Metta Meditation sandahaung Dear All, I'd like you to comment on these questions about metta bhavana. 1. Is metta a practice preached and promoted by Buddha or is it a concept that was added to Buddhism by later Buddhists? 2. Is metta bhavana comparable to other kinds of bhavana such as vipassana? In other words, can someone practising metta bhavana achieve what a vipassana yogi could? 3. Can nibhanna be achieved through metta bhavana? Is there any concrete example of someone attaining nibhana by practising metta bhavana? Regards, Sandah #107346 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat May 1, 2010 10:51 pm Subject: Why and Why not? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Why do some gain Nibb?na, while most do not? Sakka , the king of the 33 Gods, once asked the Blessed Buddha: Venerable Sir, what is the cause & reason, why some beings here do not attain Nibbana in this very life? And what is the cause and reason, why some beings here do indeed attain Nibbana in this very life? Knowing this being's addiction to divine delight the Buddha answered: There are, King of the thirty-three Devas, forms experiencable by the eye, sounds experiencable by the ear, smells experiencable by the nose, touches experiencable by the body, and mental phenomena experiencable by the mind, that all are attractive, charming, agreeable, pleasing, tempting, and tantalizing. If a bhikkhu hunts for delight in them, welcomes them, and remains holding on to them, his mind becomes addicted to them and clings to them. Any being mentally dominated by clinging cannot attain Nibbana! This is the cause & reason, King of the Devas, why many & most beings here do not attain Nibbana in this very life... There are, King of the Devas, forms experiencable by the eye, sounds experiencable by the ear, smells experiencable by the nose, touches experiencable by the body, and mental phenomena experiencable by the mind, that all are attractive, charming, agreeable, pleasing, enticing, tempting and tantalizing. If a wise Bhikkhu avoids seeking any delight in them, does not welcome them, and does not remain holding on to them, then his mind doesn't become addicted to them, Any being mentally wholly freed of clinging can indeed attain Nibbana! This is the cause and reason, King of the Devas, why some beings here can attain Nibbana in this very life, while most neither can, nor will.... Deva king Sakka & a few of his hundreds of adored nymphs! <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 102 The 6 senses section 35. Thread on Sakka 's Question: 118. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #107347 From: "philip" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 12:39 am Subject: Re: How to be a good guy? philofillet Hi again Lukas As an afterthought, and just in case you don't dig up that other post I wrote a couple of months ago, of course I am not saying that trying to be a good person is the end purpose and true and deep message of the Buddha's teaching - that would be an insult to the Buddha. You have lots of reminders from people here that understanding the present moment is where liberation comes or doesn't, so you are lucky to be able to have good Dhamma friends that bring you back to nama and rupa of the present moment. But it is my opinion (and I feel that it is in line with the way Dhamma is/was taught by the Buddha) that in order to develop that subtle, liberating understanding of the present moment, many lifetimes are required - many, many - and that for lay followers such as ourselves there should be consideration of conventional behaviour, the kind of behaviour use consider, and that that proper behaviour helps to build a kind of shelter within which the deeper understanding can gradually, gradually develop. And our lobha, all that lobha, there is so much of it, has to feed somewhere. I feel that it is best to let it feed on considerations of what kind of person we are, if it feeds on the deep teaching I think there will be too much hunger for results that just covers over the essence of the deep teaching. For example, you often ask Nina or Sarah or others, "how can I have more sati, how can I understand the present moment better" and things like that. I think that is your lobha feeding on the deep teaching. I think asking "how can I be a better person?" is a suitable question for lay followers like us, but if we ask "how can I understand the present momeent better" there is hunger for results that will just cover up the deep essence or something like that! But you keep listening to the deep teaching, and you keep thinking about your conventional behaviour and whether it is harmful to yourself and others, you have a good balance, I think. You'll be fine! Metta, Phil > L: I forgot Buddha teachings about kusala. I will try to be good. > > Best wishes > Lukas > #107348 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 2:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi Howard, ------ <. . .> KH: > > "In truth and reality, here and now the Tathaagata is not to be found." (Yamaka Sutta) > > H: > Is that which is "not to be found," what you call a "lasting entity"? -------- Yes, I believe the quote tells us that, in truth and reality, a lasting entity is not to be found. ---------------- H: > One can't have it both ways - that aggregations (such as people) which are not in truth and reality to be found yet also lasting entities. Aggregations of phenomena are spoken of as if they were entities, but, as individuals they are concept-only and mere thought and speech conventions. And even the namas and rupas are aggregates that are matters of convention. They are simply finer-scale aggregations. Ultimately, all reification is error. The Buddha taught namas and rupas as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. He taught them as evanescent puffs of nothingness with no reality to them, and to be abandoned. ----------------- After several attempts, I have failed to come up with a sensible response. You are trying to mix Mahayana/Nagarjuna philosophy with the Theravada Dhamma. But the two simply don't mix. No sense can be made of it, sorry! :-) Ken H #107349 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 2:52 am Subject: How to be a good guy? Be one. truth_aerator Dear Lukas, >But now I feel like I have to change my behaviour. Do your best and let conditions take care of the rest. Please don't use "accumulations" as an excuse to do bad deeds. MN20 lists good methods. "There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts ? imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion ? arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme. 1) He should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful. 2)he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts: 3)he should pay no mind and pay no attention to those thoughts. 4)He should attend to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts. 5)he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As ? with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth ? he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a strong man, seizing a weaker man by the head or the throat or the shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, and crush him; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts ? imbued with desire, aversion or delusion ? still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then ? with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth ? he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As ? with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth ? he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html With metta, Alex #107350 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 4:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ptaus1 Hi KenH, KenO (and Howard), Thanks very much for your replies. > > KO: even though concept exist during thinking, that does not mean it cannot be an object of panna. Panna does not differetiate whether an object is imaginery or not, it penetrates the 3 characteristics of any object. > > KH: Perhaps you can tell me the characteristics of a flying purple elephant? > > > KO: The believe that just because concept has not efficacy?and thus?cannot be used as a development is groundless.? > > KH: If illusory objects had characteristics then those characteristics would be equally illusory. pt: I'm sorry as it seems that my questions are pitting you against one another. I am surprised by this disagreement because it seems to be on a rather fundamental matter, and I can't really figure out who's right since you all make good arguments. That's why I'm still hoping that someone will supply a good quote which will address this matter specifically, in particular regarding: 1. object of citta in the moment of vipassana can only be a dhamma, not a concept? 2. a concept doesn't have the characteristics? 3. panna does not distinguish between a dhamma and a concept (so which cetasika does that, if at all?)? (and since I have this chance to ask) 4. can akusala citta have a dhamma as the object? Thanks. Of course, there's no denying that concepts are useful and that the path is not about stopping concepts, etc, so I'm just interested here in the actual technical matters in 1-4 and how these are treated in the texts, if at all. Thanks again. Best wishes pt #107351 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 2, 2010 10:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? sarahprocter... Hi pt & all, From Abhidhamattha Sangaha (CMA) and its commentary (STA): --- On Sun, 2/5/10, ptaus1 wrote: >That's why I'm still hoping that someone will supply a good quote which will address this matter specifically, in particular regarding: 1. object of citta in the moment of vipassana can only be a dhamma, not a concept? .... S: Under "Purification of View" (i.e. first stage of tender vipassana-~nana), ch 1X, #30: "lakkha.na- rasa-paccupa.t.thaana-pada.t.thaana-vasena naama-ruupapariggaho di.t.thivisuddhi naama." "Purification of view is the discernment of mind and matter with respect to their characteristics, functions, manifestations, and proximate causes." Comy: "Comprehending by way of their characteristic, etc., stated in this way, [either] in full - contact has the characteristic of contacting, earth the characteristic of hardness, and so on - [or] in short - mind has the characteristic of bending, materiality of affliction, and so on - taking hold of them by clearly distinguishing them by way of their individual characteristics and determining the reality of suffering, this is called 'the purification of view' out of consideration for the fact that it is a view, because of seeing that there is no self apart from mind and materiality, and a purification, because of cleaning away the stain of the view of self." ... >2. a concept doesn't have the characteristics? .... S: A little later in the same texts under sammasana~nana, the third stage of insight, it refers to the understanding of khandhas: Comy: "...now the materiality that arose in the past also ceased in the past, the materiality that will exist in the future will also cease in the future, the materiality that is present ceases right now without passing into the future; likewise, that materiality, etc., that is inside or outside, subtle or gross, inferior or refined. "Therefore,it is impermanent (anicca) - it cannot be approached (na icca.m), cannot be admitted (anupagantabba), as a self, etc. - in the sense of decaying because of decaying, suffering in the sense of fearful because of causeing fear, and not self in the sense of having no core because of the absence of any core such as a self. And 'the eye is impermanent...mind...visible forms...mind objects..eye-cosnciousness...mind-consciousness is impermanent, suffering, not self'." Concepts (as well as nibbana) are said to be 'free of time' in the same text - they cannot be referred to as arising and falling away. Under the section on concepts, ch VIII, #30 in CMA, we read that: "All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things. ... >3. panna does not distinguish between a dhamma and a concept (so which cetasika does that, if at all?)? .... S: There are different levels and kinds of panna. If you're referring to panna in vipassana (insight), it directly knows a dhamma, it doesn't think about concepts. However there can be wise thinking with panna that distinguishes between dhammas and concepts - pariyatti, like now! ..... >(and since I have this chance to ask) >4. can akusala citta have a dhamma as the object? ... S: Akusala cittas can have any dhamma (other than the lokuttara dhammas) as object. Even in the sense door process there can be attachment, aversion and ignorance arising. (Of course, not attachment and aversion together!) ... >Thanks. Of course, there's no denying that concepts are useful and that the path is not about stopping concepts, etc, so I'm just interested here in the actual technical matters in 1-4 and how these are treated in the texts, if at all. Thanks again. ... S: The path is about the understanding of realities, but as you say, this doesn't mean it is about "stopping concepts"! If there is thinking about concepts now, the reality is the thinking, not the concepts. I'll look forward to reading other replies and quotes. Metta Sarah ======= #107352 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 11:16 am Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + jonoabb Hi Alex (107344) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > > - By temporary suppression of the hindrances are you referring to >the suppression that results from the attainment of jhana only? > > For some.most individuals Jhana, and perhaps lots of it may be required. > > =============== So some need jhana but others (like Bahiya) do not? > =============== > There were very gifted disciples such as Bahiya who were so ready that they needed a short paragraph to to go from good worldling to Arhat. Obviously it is not the case for most of us. I (and many others, I am sure) have read and considered 100x the amount of what was needed for some to become an Arhat. So information is not what we lack, IMHO. Actual experience and skill in applying what is learnt, is. IMHO. > =============== I think you are referring here, and in the rest of your post, to the attainment of enlightenment. My question was directed to the development of satipatthana (at any level). > =============== > How are you going to get insight if the hindrances overpower you and cloud that which is seen? > =============== There can be kusala moments (including insight) in among the akusala moments. Jon #107353 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 11:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + jonoabb Hi Howard (107341) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------- > I don't care when or how they are suspended. I do suspect that *full > suspension of all of them* only occurs at special times such as the arising > of insight upon hearing a teaching for which the mind is "ready" and upon > entry to jhana. In general, I believe that moments of suspension of > hindrances and ongoing diminishing of the power of hindrances are requisite for > preparation of the mind for awakening. > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > By liberative insight are you referring to actual enlightenment (of a > particular level, perhaps), or do you include all levels of satipatthana (as > described in the Satipatthana Sutta)? > ------------------------------------------------------- > I'd say both, but I mainly had in mind insight that leads to a stage > of awakening (stream entry, etc). Lesser insights, however, do lead in the > right direction and build towards "the big ones" to paraphrase U.S. West > coast earthquake talk. I certainly believe that even lesser, early insights > are preceded and accompanied by suspension of hindrances. A stage of > awakening, of course, is also accompanied by uprooting of some defilements and the > weakening of others. > =============== If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that (a) there can be no development of satipatthaana of any level without there first being the suspension of some of the hindrances, but that (b) that suspension may be a partial one, and (c) the suspension need not be associated with the attainment of jhana. Is that a fair summary of how you see it? To my understanding, there is no prerequisite in terms of suspension of the hindrances for the development of sati as described in the Satipatthana Sutta > =============== > No, but the material I'm using here as a closing quote says that > without suspension of the hindrances, "a superior human state, a truly noble > distinction in knowledge & vision" is impossible. > =============== Thanks for the sutta passage. My guess is that the expression "a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision" would be a reference to the abhinnas rather than to levels of insight. Jon > ================================ > Hindrances > > /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains ?" going far, > its current swift, carrying everything with it ?" and a man would open > channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle > of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, > its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. > In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, > hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual > desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, > when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what > is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, > to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior > human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is > impossible/ > > (From the Avarana Sutta) #107354 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 2, 2010 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight sarahprocter... Dear Alex, Kevin, Ken O & all, --- On Sun, 25/4/10, truth_aerator wrote: >>K:I think it makes it easier for the mind to compare the difference >between when one is in a deep state of serenity, with the mind >unified, with when one has "exited" the deep state and the mind is >going wild again off sense-objects and impressions A:> Right. Jhanas give a direct experience that can and should be used within the context of 4NT. You get into the Jhana by following 3rd NT, and the bliss that follows is a very important thing to consider. The skills needed to temporary let go of hindrances, may carry over into a skill that permanently eradicates them. .... S: Not right at all! Later you also talk about seeing no-control "in deep Jhana" and thereby understanding anatta. Kevin also referred to how "it is much easier to see dukkha of aggregates comparing to the bliss of Jhana." As B.Bodhi summarises in his introduction to his translation of the Brahmajala Sutta and its commentaries ("The All-Embracing Net of Views", a great number, (if not the majority) of the 62 wrong views described have their source in "the experience of meditative attainments", which I understand to be referring to jhanas and other samatha attainments. He writes that as the sutta shows, "many of these views make their appearance only at the end of a prolonged course of meditation involving firm renunciation, intense devotion, and keen contemplative zeal. For these views the very basis of their formulation is a higher experience rather thant the absence of one." This is because of the deeply rooted sakkaayaditthi, "the fundamental need to establish and maintain, within the empirical personality, some permanent basis of selfhood or individualized existence." He goes on to state that "Since the notion of selfhood is accepted uncritically at the level of ordinary experience, higher attainments in meditation, as the Brahmajaala shows, will not suffice to eliminate the notion but will only reinforce it by providing apparent verification of the self originally prsupposed at the outset of practice. It is as if one were to lead a man wearing red-tinted glasses from a small room to an open field. The change of scene will not alter the colour of his vision, for as long as he is wearing red glasses everything he sees will be coloured red." Here is one summary from the Tiika to the Sutta itself, indicating that the causes of wrong views lie in ignorance and attachment, not in lack of "meditative attainments": "Having analyzed the sixty-two speculative views according to their specific causes (visesakaara.na), the present teaching is now undertaken to show their common cause (avisesakaara.na); for feeling, ignorance, and craving are causes common to all the views. Therein, 'that' (tadapi), i.e. that proclamation that the self and the world are eternal, is made by those who do not know and do not see as they really are the three types of feeling - pleasant, painful, and neither pleasant nor painful feeling - as suffering, a thorn, and impermanent, respectively, and who do not know and see all feeling without exception in terms of its origin, passing away, satisfaction, unsatisfactoriness, and escape.? And then, because it originates through the longing for pleasure, etc., in those who, through their involvement in craving, are 'immersed in craving.' this proclamation is only the vacillation and shaking of views caused by the agitation of craving. Or it is the mere active expression (copanappattimatta) of the view through the doors of body and speech, as when it is said: 'If there is no self, WHO experiences feeling?' The point is that there is NO external dhamma to be proclaimed as such (as eternal) through that view...." Finally, Ken O you asked me (again)to quote "the part of text said there is meditation that is written by the Visud does not talk about a method, a choice and actions." As I quoted recently: The Atthasaalinii, gives a detailed elaboration on the meaning of bhaavanaa as used in the texts, under 'Fourfold Jhana', ch 1. ***** " 'Develops'(bhaavetii) means to beget, produce, increase (janeti, uppaadeti, va.d.dheti). This is the meaning of bhaavanaa here. Elsewhere the meaning is different according to the preposition, as sambhaavanaa, paribhaavanaa, vibhaavanaa. <...> " Again bhaavanaa is used in the sense of producing and increasing (uppaadanava.d.dhana.t.thena), eg:-'Udaayi, I have preached to the disciples the practice (pa.tipadaa) according to which they develop (bhaaventii) the four applications in mindfulness (cattaaro satipa.t.thaane)' (MN ii 11). And such is its meaning here also. Hence it has been said that bhaaveti means to beget (janeti), produce (uppaadeti), increase (va.d.dhetii)." ... S: Whether we're referring to samatha or vipassana bhaavanaa, the meaning of bhaavanaa is to develop, produce, increase right understanding and other wholesome factors. Whatever we we read, it is pa.tipadaa, the development of satipatthana that is the only path as taught by the Buddha. We can just agree to differ on our interpretation of any texts:) Metta Sarah ======== #107355 From: "sarah" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 12:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, pt (Alex, Kevin & all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > >S: ....I have zero interest in "speculating about methods, recitation etc." It all just leads to more papanca, more proliferation, and no understanding at this moment, as far as I can tell. > > KO: We have to be clear on how Papanca arise. It is because of craving, conceit and ditthi and not because of rules, methods, action or concepts. Pse see the quote I have written to Alex before. > > pg 50, The Discourse on the Roots of Existence - Commentary > > < .... S: Yes, very good quotes and no one has suggested that papanca is anything other than "craving, conceit and ditthi". My comment was that speculating and clinging to ideas of methods and recitations leads to more of the same papanca. From the same text: "Objection: If the conventional expression is applied, what is the fault? Don't ariyans also make use fo the conventional expression, as when they say: 'this, venerable sire, is the great earth.' etc.? "Reply: It is not the mere employment of the expression that is intended here, but the wrong adherence which occurs through a perversion of perception....." No one has suggested that conventional actions such as listening and reading are wrong (as you suggest I've said #106635). It is the "wrong adherence" to the terms or expressions that is the problem, such as when rules or methods of conventional actions are introduced to be followed, or when dhammas are taken as atta, rather than a developing of understanding of present dhammas. Here's another good example from the same text, regarding jhana and the importance of right view: "One who obtains jhaana through the earth-kasina may adhere to the object perceived in his meditation-vision as a self; or he may take that object as a sign of his superiority. Thus he conceives 'I am earth' (through the conceivings of views and conceit, respectively). Apprehending this kasina object as 'my self', he conceives 'earth is mine.' On the other hand, if he adhere to this object doctrinally as another person or as a god, he conceives 'another is earth'; and if he adheres to it as the self of another, he conceives 'earth belongs to another.'" And for pt: "....the defining of mentality-materiality (naamaruupavavatthaana) is the full understanding of the known; from insight-comprehension of the groups (kalaapasammasana) as far as conformity-knowledge (anuloma) is the full understanding by scrutinization; and the knowledge of the ariyan path is the full understanding by abandoning. "Therein, the 'full understanding of the known' is the wisdom of full understanding by which one fully understands, delimits (paricchindati), the plane of insight (vipassanaabhuumi)." "The 'full understanding of scrutinization' understands the five clinging aggregates in their true nature as impermanent, (suffering, and non-self), by delimiting them through insight-comprehension and scrutinizing their modes of impermanence, etc., together with their accompaniments." S: Paramattha dhammas, not concepts... Metta Sarah ======= #107356 From: "colette" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 9:24 am Subject: Abhidharma WITHOUT Chaos? Is that ever possible? ksheri3 Hi Sarah and Jon, Yea, it took ya a little while to work me in but I got there/here Sarah, how is it possible for the Abhidharma to NOT and to NEVER have CHAOS? The entire actuality of the Abhidharma is RESULANT from CHAOS: the is no need for a CAUSATION to manifest the Abhidharma if there is no CHAOS. > S: Better to leave aside the "mind-only school" and "chaos magik" if you wish to understand the Abhidhamma. > colette: so, then, lets leave this Chaos magik and this Mind-Only School aside. So, THEN, did the Abhidharma suddenly appear outside the cave where there were a few "elitists" deciding what should be and what should not be placed into the Buddhist Canon? And those "elitists" just somehow came out of the cave with the dictatorship doctrine where they found the monks who were excluded joyfully relishing over the fact that they had something that the elitists did not have BUT because those monks were and are less than those "elitist" monks, the monks that possessed the Abhidharma gladly sacrificed their possession to the greedy elitists who then continued to maintain their slavery over any monk and person not invited into the cave to join the gang, tong, which was going to be used? NO SIR, NO MAM, INVITE THOSE SISTERS AND BROS OF CHAOS MAGIK AND OF THE MIND-ONLY SCHOOL TO EXPRESS THEIR POSITION. They are just as much allowed to participate in the decision of the DHARMA if they are not a party member or from Bejing or Burma or North Korea or ...! Sorry I could not get to the previous and less contraversial aspects of your reply to me but I've gotta go and deal with tons of other stuff before my time runs out here on Saturday night before Sunday black out. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > #106642 > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ksheri3" wrote: > > > > S: Yes, this is a good point. All the imagination, all the dreaming is accumulated in sankhara khandha. > > > > > > > colette: "accumulated in", how about "encapsulated in", or "packaged in" (don't touch that last one, for the time being, packaged in, I'll get to that later in my meditation), but esentially you're suggesting an "aggregate" is being established or already is established and is being stored. > ... > S: I'm suggesting that each moment of thinking now conditions more of such thinking. Each moment of anger conditions more anger. Each moment of kindness conditions more kindness. Each moment of wisdom conditions more wisdom. <...> #107357 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 2, 2010 8:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/2/2010 7:18:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that (a) there can be no development of satipatthaana of any level without there first being the suspension of some of the hindrances, but that (b) that suspension may be a partial one, and (c) the suspension need not be associated with the attainment of jhana. Is that a fair summary of how you see it? To my understanding, there is no prerequisite in terms of suspension of the hindrances for the development of sati as described in the Satipatthana Sutta ============================== I view the pre-occurrence or co-occurrence of suspension of hindrances to be necessary, and, moreover, I view the continuing weakening of the hindrances to be requisite. They aren't called "hindrances" for no reason! ;-) The weakening and repeated suspension of the hindrances is needed to cultivate the mind, and I think the Buddha is rather clear on this. In MN 39, the Buddha teaches "... when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security. Seeing that they have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated." Jon, you say that there is "no prerequisite in terms of suspension of the hindrances for the development of sati as described in the Satipatthana Sutta." Perhaps that particular sutta doesn't mention it, but that sutta is not all that the Buddha taught. In the Avarana Sutta the Buddha refers to "These five are obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment." Note: They OVERWHELM awareness! There is also the following pointingout the suspension of te hindrances as requisite for the ending of he effluents: "When gold is debased by these five impurities, it is not pliant, malleable, or luminous. It is brittle and not ready to be worked. Which five? Iron, copper, tin, lead, & silver... But when gold is not debased by these five impurities, it is pliant, malleable, & luminous. It is not brittle and is ready to be worked. Then whatever sort of ornament one has in mind — whether a belt, an earring, a necklace, or a gold chain — it would serve one's purpose. In the same way, when the mind is debased by these five impurities, it is not pliant, malleable, or luminous. It is brittle and not rightly concentrated for the ending of the effluents. Which five? Sensual desire, ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty... But when the mind is not debased by these five impurities, it is pliant, malleable, & luminous. It is not brittle and is rightly concentrated for the ending of the effluents. Then whichever of the six higher knowledges [_§64_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#passage-\ 64) ] one turns one's mind to know & realize, one can witness them for oneself whenever there is an opening... — AN 5.23 With metta, Howard Hindrances /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #107358 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 12:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? jonoabb Hi pt (107350) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > ... > pt: I'm still hoping that someone will supply a good quote which will address this matter specifically, > =============== I doubt there's a 'good quote' in the Tipitaka covering any of the points you list. It's mostly a matter of inference to be drawn from what's said (and what's not said). > =============== in particular regarding: > > 1. object of citta in the moment of vipassana can only be a dhamma, not a concept? > =============== Or, put slightly differently, it is the development of insight into the true nature of dhammas that constitutes vipassana bhavana. The suttas are full of discourses about dhammas (including dhammas when classified as dhatus, ayatanas, khandhas, the 4 foundations of mindfulness, etc) and the importance of their being seen/known. > =============== > 2. a concept doesn't have the characteristics? > =============== Mention in the suttas of the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta is invariably in the context of dhammas. For further support on the significance of dhammas, see the following from Vism: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states [dhammas]. Its function is to abolish the darkness of delusion, which conceals the individual essences of states [dhammas]. Vism Ch XIV, 7 Jon #107359 From: "sarah" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 1:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anger. How to stop / with .Metta-Karuna / sarahprocter... Dear Robin, #106965 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" wrote: > > >robin writes: Not really, I do not think so. Adosa could also be apathy; neither metta {empathy} nor dosa {antipathy}. > > ... > > S: Adosa is always a sobhana (beautiful) cetasika, never an unwholesome one, which apathy suggests. > > robin replies: I suppose apathy in common usage implies something unwholesome. Literally, it just means without emotion. It is, in that sense, neutral. .... S: Would you describe metta, loving kindness, as 'without emotion' or 'neutral'? I ask because metta is adosa cetasika. ... > > S: When "we feel their pain, we shed real tears for them", isn't this dosa (aversion) with unpleasant feeling? As soon as there's the slightest unpleasant feeling, we can be sure it's not karuna (compassion). > > I have to disagree here. The Chinese translation of karuna is word that means 'lamentation.' I see it as being like mourning or a catharsis. It is bittersweet and beautiful. Like the words 'parting is such sweet sorrow.' ... S: This may be so, but here we're discussing the use of the terms as used by the Buddha and his disciples in the Theravada texts. In these, karuna can never arise with any sorrow. .... > What I am saying is that there is fine line here. I also know people who went through karuna cultivations and became too emotional. Teachers I have spoken with suggested that metta & karuna bhavana should be balanced with non-attachment. .... S: Equanimity and non-attachment arise with all wholesome cittas, so there is never a question of becoming "too emotional" or "unbalanced" when metta and karuna arise. The problem is that much of what we take for being metta and karuna are their near and far enemies. If we try to have metta and karuna or develop metta and karuna bhavana, it's likely, imho, that it's attachment that is being developed and in particular, attachment to oneself as the one with metta and karuna. This is different from just being friendly and helpful now when we have the opportunity. ... > > >I think Karuna is bittersweet sorrow; not bitter. That is my understanding, fwiw. > > .... > > S: Just sweet, very sweet. That is my understanding, fwiw:-) > > ... > > robin: I do not think so. What is sweet about others in pain or stress? ... S: The "sweetness" is in the citta which cares and wishes to relieve or assist the others at such times. For example, if a child is sick in hospital, visiting tears and self-pity don't help. Kindness and friendly assistance are much more likely to be beneficial. ... >How can we feel sweet in response to the real pain of another? ... S: Just as like others to show kindness and gentleness without sorrow when we're in pain, so do others. The sorrow is for ourselves, our own feelings, not for the others. ... >How can we be happy in response to suffering, unless we are sadistic? .... S: It's not a matter of feeling happy or sad but of understanding, I think. All conditioned dhammas are impermanent and thereby inherently dukkha. Better to accept with understanding than to cry over. Of course, there will be many times in our lives when we experience great loss, grief and sorrow. However, even at these times, wisdom can develop. We think the sorrow is for the others, but really it's for our own loss, our own sad feelings. ... >What IS sweet is the warm concern or compassion that arises in response. The Buddha's Compassion can be seen in his words to the householder Sigala. Those were not sweet, nicey nicey words. He gave some pretty tough advice -- I am sure in a warm way that reached Sigala's heart. ... S: Yes, the truth, spoken wisely, not the "nicey nicey words", the greatest compassion. No, unpleasantness or sorrow involved. The medicine we all need and which he gave us all. (Would you care to quote the particular words you find inspiring?) ... > Here is what I mean by bittersweet. My wife I had a dog for 14 years. After the dog died, I wrote: > > "So far the adjustment is tough on the gut level of non-conceptual perception and habits. On the conceptual level, I know she is gone. We have accepted that. Then, I will be eating, and I find myself thinking I need to save the dog a bite. We come home from the store and enter the house, we are automatically looking around for her. Then there is that tight-ness in the gut, the tears that rim the eyes. One thing about a dog, even if one is only gone briefly, they are thrilled when you return. "And who can say why your heart cries ... Only Time." ... S: I understand and you write beautifully. Lobha - that's why the heart cries.... Metta Sarah ======= #107360 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 2, 2010 2:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How to be a good guy? nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 1-mei-2010, om 23:54 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > How to not harm other people? > I forgot this is very important. ------ N: What helps is considering how you yourselves would like to be treated by others. You like others to be kind to you, don't you? The Buddha gave us many kinds of good advice. Another thought: Saariputta would like to be a dustrag that others use for wiping their feet. He was so humble. He did not cling at all to the importance of self. Even when he was insulted, he did not mind. What is this self: only fleeting elements, a mere nothing. -------- Nina. #107361 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 2, 2010 2:22 pm Subject: Abhidhamma Series no 11. Feelings (part 1). nilovg > Dear friends, > > no 11. Feelings. (part 1.) > > We think of ourselves as having happy feeling or unhappy feeling. > We take feeling for something lasting and we take it for my > feeling. In reality feeling is a cetasika accompanying each and > every citta. It arises with the citta it accompanies and then it > falls away immediately. Feeling experiences the same object as the > citta it accompanies, but it is different from citta that is the > leader in cognizing an object. Feeling experiences the object in > its own way, it experiences the flavour of the object. There is no > moment without feeling. Feelings are manifold and they can be > classified in different ways. When there is not pleasant feeling or > unpleasant feeling, there is indifferent feeling. When mental > feelings and bodily feelings are taken into account, feelings can > be classified as fivefold: > > pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) > painful bodily feeling (dukkha) > happy feeling (somanassa) > unhappy feeling (domanassa) > indifferent feeling (upekkhaa). > > Feeling is different as it accompanies cittas of the four jaatis > (classes) of kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya. > Somannassa, happy feeling, can arise with cittas of all four jatis, > with kusala citta, akusala citta, vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. It > is important to know of which jaati feeling is, otherwise we are > misled by our feelings. When we have happy feeling, we may believe > that this is kusala, but most of the time it accompanies akuala > citta rooted in lobha, attachment. > When somanassa accompanies lobha-muula-citta, somanassa is also > akusala. There can be pleasant feeling when one likes a pleasant > visible object, a beautiful sound, a fragrant odour, a delicious > taste, a soft touch or an agreeable thought. > When we enjoy delicious food with pleasant feeling, that feeling is > different from pleasant feeling arising when we appreciate someone > else?s kusala. In the latter case it is more refined and calm. > There are many sobhana cetasikas accompanying kusala citta: calm, > evenmindedness, confidence in kusala, mindfulness. They all > condition the pleasant feeling that is kusala. > Somanassa can accompany kusala citta, but it does not accompany > each kusala citta. When we perform daana (generosity), observe > siila ( morality) or apply ourselves to mental development, there > can be somanassa or upekkhaa, indifferent feeling, with the kusala > citta. > When we give a present to someone else and there is pleasant > feeling, we may think that there is one kind of feeling which > lasts, but in reality there are different moments of feeling > accompanying different cittas. There can be a moment of pure > generosity accompanied by pleasant feeling, but there are bound to > be many moments of attachment after the kusala cittas have fallen > away. We may be attached to the person we give to or to the thing > we give, or we may expect something in return; we want to be liked > by the person who receives our gift. Such moments of attachment may > be accompanied by somanassa. Somanassa which is kusala and > somanassa which accompanies lobha are different kinds of somanassa > arising closely one after the other, and it is difficult to > distinguish one from the other. It seems that there is one kind of > somanassa and that it lasts. In reality there are many different > moments of somanassa. > ******* > Nina. #107362 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 2:22 pm Subject: Re: How to be a good guy? szmicio Dear Nina, > > How to not harm other people? > > I forgot this is very important. > ------ > N: What helps is considering how you yourselves would like to be > treated by others. You like others to be kind to you, don't you? The > Buddha gave us many kinds of good advice. > Another thought: Saariputta would like to be a dustrag that others > use for wiping their feet. He was so humble. He did not cling at all > to the importance of self. Even when he was insulted, he did not > mind. What is this self: only fleeting elements, a mere nothing. L: Very useful. I think that for me considering more and more: just elements, will help me to be more humble. But I cannot be humble when I want. Best wishes Lukas #107363 From: Ken O Date: Sun May 2, 2010 3:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ashkenn2k Dear Ken H > >Perhaps you can tell me the characteristics of a flying purple elephant? > KO:? it is not the flying purple elephant that one should be concern with, it is the mental profileration that arise with the flying purple.? Without thinking will there be flying purple element, without lobha of liking this flying purple elephant, it would not continue.? >If illusory objects had characteristics then those characteristics would be equally illusory. > KO:? You are thinking of the concepts, you are not looking at the dhamma that arise with the concepts. >Nothing can be *used for* satipatthana. A dhamma can be the *object of* satipatthana, but that is a different matter. There is no using - no method - involved, just right understanding of whatever dhamma-arammana may have arisen. > >------------ --------- --------- ------ KO:? Did the text support your position, where is the reference to your position.? Pse do not give me? explanation because I could explain in this way.?Then also?I could also explain in another way.? I could show you text, but could you show me your textual support. >Learning the characteristics of non-existent objects will lead nowhere. Or maybe it will lead to madness, but it certainly won't lead to the end of dukkha. > KO:? It is not learning the characteristics of non-existent objects, it is learning the dhamma that arise with the non-existent objects.? Any object that arise, will condition the arisen of the dhammas. >Citta doesn't select its object (arammana). If a presently arisen dhamma becomes the arammana then there is a potential for satipatthana. If a concept of a dhamma becomes the arammana then there is a potential for pariyatti (right theoretical understanding) . If some other concept becomes the arammana, then satipatthana is not an option at that time. KO:? Wrong, why simple, a concept can condition aksuala to arise.? If a concept can conditon aksuala to arise, so it could condition panna to arise.? Since you said citta does not select its object, do you think?panna can?? :-).? >There is need for concern, or for choosing arammanas. Nor is their any possibility of choosing; dhammas just flow on, uncontrolled. KO:? dont you find yourself contradicting, you said satipathanna is not an option when concept becomes the arammana, isn't that selectng and choosing.? Cheers Ken O #107364 From: Ken O Date: Sun May 2, 2010 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The role of samatha for insight ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >Finally, Ken O you asked me (again)to quote "the part of text said there is meditation that is written by the Visud does not talk about a method, a choice and actions." > >As I quoted recently: > >The Atthasaalinii, gives a detailed elaboration on the meaning of bhaavanaa as used in the texts, under 'Fourfold Jhana', ch 1. > >***** >" 'Develops'(bhaaveti i) means to beget, produce, increase (janeti, uppaadeti, va.d.dheti). This is the meaning of bhaavanaa here. Elsewhere the meaning is different according to the preposition, as sambhaavanaa, paribhaavanaa, vibhaavanaa. > KO:? I am waiting for this quote and I know you will use it.? So does this change the meaning?of bhavana as development.? It just explain developemnt as increase of panna.? Does it said no concepts :-).? Also objects of the foufold jhanas?are concepts :-) ><...> >" Again bhaavanaa is used in the sense of producing and increasing >(uppaadanava. d.dhana.t. thena), eg:-'Udaayi, I have preached to the disciples the practice (pa.tipadaa) according to which they develop (bhaaventii) the four applications in mindfulness (cattaaro satipa.t.thaane) ' (MN ii 11). And such is its meaning here also. > KO:? so that is the first applications - breathing as a concept :-).? You could read the commentary to Satipatthana, anapasati, Dispeller of Delusion and Visud, it is all about concepts.? If not, you quote me another source is it not a concepts.? >... >S: Whether we're referring to samatha or vipassana bhaavanaa, the meaning of bhaavanaa is to develop, produce, increase right understanding and other wholesome factors. > >Whatever we we read, it is pa.tipadaa, the development of satipatthana that is the only path as taught by the Buddha. > >We can just agree to differ on our interpretation of any texts:) KO: Yes, I do not said vipassana is wrong or samatha is wrong.? I am saying the interpretation of satipatthana by you is wrong.? It is not supported by the text.??Also, we cannot say according to interpretation, because Alex will said jhanas according to his interpretations.? Lets stick to the text. Cheers Ken O #107365 From: Ken O Date: Sun May 2, 2010 3:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >S: Yes, very good quotes and no one has suggested that papanca is anything other than "craving, conceit and ditthi". My comment was that speculating and clinging to ideas of methods and recitations leads to more of the same papanca. > >From the same text: > >"Objection: If the conventional expression is applied, what is the fault? Don't ariyans also make use fo the conventional expression, as when they say: 'this, venerable sire, is the great earth.' etc.? > >"Reply: It is not the mere employment of the expression that is intended here, but the wrong adherence which occurs through a perversion of perception.. ..." > >No one has suggested that conventional actions such as listening and reading are wrong (as you suggest I've said #106635). It is the "wrong adherence" to the terms or expressions that is the problem, such as when rules or methods of conventional actions are introduced to be followed, or when dhammas are taken as atta, rather than a developing of understanding of present dhammas. > KO:? Nope, that is your position, in the Visud and text, there are methods to be followed in conventional action and not even reach vipassana nana yet.? I did not speculate, I just saying what is the text.? There is no need or me to speculate.? >Here's another good example from the same text, regarding jhana and the importance of right view: > >"One who obtains jhaana through the earth-kasina may adhere to the object perceived in his meditation-vision as a self; or he may take that object as a sign of his superiority. Thus he conceives 'I am earth' (through the conceivings of views and conceit, respectively) . Apprehending this kasina object as 'my self', he conceives 'earth is mine.' On the other hand, if he adhere to this object doctrinally as another person or as a god, he conceives 'another is earth'; and if he adheres to it as the self of another, he conceives 'earth belongs to another.'" KO:? Yes this is the explanation of?sakkayaditthi.? Also there it is using concepts also?as a method of development :-) >And for pt: > >"....the defining of mentality-materiali ty (naamaruupavavattha ana) is the full understanding of the known; from insight-comprehensi on of the groups (kalaapasammasana) as far as conformity-knowledg e (anuloma) is the full understanding by scrutinization; and the knowledge of the ariyan path is the full understanding by abandoning. > >"Therein, the 'full understanding of the known' is the wisdom of full understanding by which one fully understands, delimits (paricchindati) , the plane of insight (vipassanaabhuumi) ." > >"The 'full understanding of scrutinization' understands the five clinging aggregates in their true nature as impermanent, (suffering, and non-self), by delimiting them through insight-comprehensi on and scrutinizing their modes of impermanence, etc., together with their accompaniments. " > >S: Paramattha dhammas, not concepts... > KO:? Definitely during vipassa nana?is paramatha dhamma, but how does one reach this.? By nama and rupa only or there are other ways like 32 parts, breathing as said in the Visud and commentaries.? As I said to Lukas, dont impose vipassana or supradmudane to mundane.? Cheers Ken O #107366 From: Ken O Date: Sun May 2, 2010 3:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ashkenn2k Dear pt and Sarah >1. object of citta in the moment of vipassana can only be a dhamma, not a concept? >.... >S: Under "Purification of View" (i.e. first stage of tender vipassana-~nana) , ch 1X, #30: > >"lakkha.na- rasa-paccupa. t.thaana- pada.t.thaana- vasena naama-ruupapariggah o di.t.thivisuddhi naama." > >"Purification of view is the discernment of mind and matter with respect to their characteristics, functions, manifestations, and proximate causes." > >Comy: "Comprehending by way of their characteristic, etc., stated in this way, [either] in full - contact has the characteristic of contacting, earth the characteristic of hardness, and so on - [or] in short - mind has the characteristic of bending, materiality of affliction, and so on - taking hold of them by clearly distinguishing them by way of their individual characteristics and determining the reality of suffering, this is called 'the purification of view' out of consideration for the fact that it is a view, because of seeing that there is no self apart from mind and materiality, and a purification, because of cleaning away the stain of the view of self." KO:? Yes only in vipassana nana stage.? As I said earlier, it does not mean it applies throughout prior to this?stage because in the text, breathing into jhanas then as a basis to materiality and immateriality.?? This is why I told Lukas, dont impose vipassana nana and suparmundane to mundane.? >>2. a concept doesn't have the characteristics? >.... >S: A little later in the same texts under sammasana~nana, the third stage of insight, it refers to the understanding of khandhas: > >Comy: "...now the materiality that arose in the past also ceased in the past, the materiality that will exist in the future will also cease in the future, the materiality that is present ceases right now without passing into the future; likewise, that materiality, etc., that is inside or outside, subtle or gross, inferior or refined. > >"Therefore,it is impermanent (anicca) - it cannot be approached (na icca.m), cannot be admitted (anupagantabba) , as a self, etc. - in the sense of decaying because of decaying, suffering in the sense of fearful because of causeing fear, and not self in the sense of having no core because of the absence of any core such as a self. And 'the eye is impermanent. ..mind... visible forms...mind objects..eye- cosnciousness. ..mind-conscious ness is impermanent, suffering, not self'." > >Concepts (as well as nibbana) are said to be 'free of time' in the same text - they cannot be referred to as arising and falling away. > >Under the section on concepts, ch VIII, #30 in CMA, we read that: > >"All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things. >... KO:? Concepts does not exist except in thinking, it does not mean it cannot condition dhamma to arise for development of satipatthana. >>3. panna does not distinguish between a dhamma and a concept (so which cetasika does that, if at all?)? >.... >S: There are different levels and kinds of panna. If you're referring to panna in vipassana (insight), it directly knows a dhamma, it doesn't think about concepts. However there can be wise thinking with panna that distinguishes between dhammas and concepts - pariyatti, like now! >..... >>(and since I have this chance to ask) KO:? Nope wise thinking is not distinguishing between dhammas and concepts.? Because panna does not choose an object, it penetrates the meaning of objects in the mind.? Wise thinking only arisee when panna arise and not because the object is a concept or a dhamma.? Because panna dont care what object arise when it arise to perceive the nature of the object.??? The reason to understand between dhammas and concepts to understand it is just dhammas and there is no self at work, it eradicates miccha ditthi. >>4. can akusala citta have a dhamma as the object? >... >S: Akusala cittas can have any dhamma (other than the lokuttara dhammas) as object. Even in the sense door process there can be attachment, aversion and ignorance arising. (Of course, not attachment and aversion together!) >... >>Thanks. Of course, there's no denying that concepts are useful and that the path is not about stopping concepts, etc, so I'm just interested here in the actual technical matters in 1-4 and how these are treated in the texts, if at all. Thanks again. >... >S: The path is about the understanding of realities, but as you say, this doesn't mean it is about "stopping concepts"! If there is thinking about concepts now, the reality is the thinking, not the concepts. KO:?Sure thinking, but thinking can be kusala and akusala when the concept arise with it.? So it not just thinking, there are always other dhamma that arise with thinking, citta cannot arise alone?:-) cheers Ken O #107367 From: Ken O Date: Sun May 2, 2010 3:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ashkenn2k Dear Jon > >Or, put slightly differently, it is the development of insight into the true nature of dhammas that constitutes vipassana bhavana. > >The suttas are full of discourses about dhammas (including dhammas when classified as dhatus, ayatanas, khandhas, the 4 foundations of mindfulness, etc) and the importance of their being seen/known. > KO:? Suttas also full of quotes of concepts as development :-).? > >Mention in the suttas of the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta is invariably in the context of dhammas. > >For further support on the significance of dhammas, see the following from Vism: >"Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states [dhammas]. Its function is to abolish the darkness of delusion, which conceals the individual essences of states [dhammas]. >Vism Ch XIV, 7 KO:? ?could you care to quote me which text that say concepts cannot be for the understanding of the three characteristics in mundane level?:-) Cheers Ken O #107368 From: Ken O Date: Sun May 2, 2010 3:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How to be a good guy? Be one. ashkenn2k Dear Lukas >MN20 lists good methods. look at the commentary to the sutta instead as it describe the details better, it is online in the access to insight.? It is a good read and some of the finer points of the usefulness of concepts to the development of path.? Read with an open mind.? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel021.html cheers Ken O #107369 From: Ken O Date: Sun May 2, 2010 4:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How to be a good guy? ashkenn2k Dear Lukas Nina is right? <see the disadvantage of akusala. >> be patient, no one can change over night, it takes time.? I also have many akusala moments and habits, we have to learn to understand them.? Dont try too hard because eventually it conditions more dosa as one is impatient with results or with changes to our behaviour.? Only when the dhamma that arise is understood, then the change could happen.? it takes time and be patient with change.?? You are changing when you learn dhamma, just that you dont notice it.? I believe you have changed, if not why are so concern about aksuala behaviour.? Have faith in dhamma, it just takes time cheers Ken O #107370 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How to be a good guy? Be one. szmicio Dear Ken 0, Phil, Nina, Alex and all > >MN20 lists good methods. > > look at the commentary to the sutta instead as it describe the details better, it is online in the access to insight.? It is a good read and some of the finer points of the usefulness of concepts to the development of path.? Read with an open mind.? L: Yes, detailes are very accurate but I still dont know how to apply to that. Nina mentioned she will explain objects of meditiation. I am looking forward to that. This is from commentaries you gave, and this concerned me a bit recently. Does this first gattha refers only to sensous desires or also to 'attraction' with character of a girl?: "When greed arises in regard to living beings with thoughts like the following: "This one's hands are beautiful," "This one's feet are beautiful," one should think by way of the unlovely thus: To what are you attached? Are you attached to the hair of the head, the hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin... or urine? [This refers to the thirty-two parts of the body.] This body (attabhava) held up by three hundred bones, bound with nine hundred nerve strings, plastered over with nine hundred lumps of flesh, wrapped completely in a wet skin, covered with the color of the cuticle (chavi ragena), drips filth from the nine open sores and the ninety-nine thousand pores of the hairs of the body. It is filled with a collection of bones, is bad-smelling, contemptible, repellent, and is the sum of the thirty-two parts. There is neither essence nor excellence in it. To one who thinks thus of the unlovely (nature of the body), the greed connected with living beings is cast out. Therefore the different object is the thinking on the object (nimitta) which produces greed, by way of the meditation on the unlovely (nature of the body)." L: I have to say but I've had those kind of reflections in life, they were very natural and lead to wise attention. But I dont know how to apply to this object now, to make thise wise reflection arise again. How to do this? Shall I force myself when seeing a nice girl: this is just decaying body, nothing plesant with that? Or those psyches are so fleeting nothing to be attracted to. anicca. I can do this even now, I can sit and reflect, but I feel always like I am loosing something. cause I miss realities now. Thinking just thinking, conditioned dhamma now, nothing important. I used to that. I have doubt. I can sit reflect asubha of the body or even recitate this. But I feel that I can miss the rality, like thinking now. Best wishes Lukas #107371 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 4:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How to be a good guy? szmicio Dear Ken O, > Nina is right? < >see the disadvantage of akusala. >> L: My habits didnt change much. I cant even measure this. > be patient, no one can change over night, it takes time.? I also have many akusala moments and habits, we have to learn to understand them.? Dont try too hard because eventually it conditions more dosa as one is impatient with results or with changes to our behaviour.? Only when the dhamma that arise is understood, then the change could happen.? it takes time and be patient with change.?? You are changing when you learn dhamma, just that you dont notice it.? I believe you have changed, if not why are so concern about aksuala behaviour.? Have faith in dhamma, it just takes time L: I really understand the changing by graduall development of satipatthana. I feel this help gradually to have less ignorance. thinking, seein, hearing... But I am not able how can I change habits by developemnt of samatha. This doesnt work on me. Best wishes Lukas #107372 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 4:45 pm Subject: On Meditation (an integral part of N8P) truth_aerator Hi Jon, Sarha, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (107344) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > > - By temporary suppression of the hindrances are you referring to >the suppression that results from the attainment of jhana only? > > > > For some.most individuals Jhana, and perhaps lots of it may be required. > > > > =============== > > So some need jhana but others (like Bahiya) do not? Bahiya may have had Jhana or jhana like attainments prior to meeting the Buddha. You know the story, he was an ascetic who thought himself holy. It wouldn't surprise me if the reason he thought himself holy was due to temporary suppression of the hindrances. He may also have had lots of Jhana attainments in past lives. He definately had clairvoyant abilities (which may require 4th Jhana) to talk to Deva who told him that he wasn't an Arahant. Reading from the sutta, he also had very very strong urgency to see the Buddha, a lot of faith! So all these things combined, plus meeting the Buddha (a super motivational experience itself) was enough, FOR HIM, to become an Arahant within few minutes. All Bahiya needed was a proper personalized instruction by the Buddha and very ardent application of it. The rest, he may have completed to required degree. > > =============== > > There were very gifted disciples such as Bahiya who were so ready that they needed a short paragraph to to go from good worldling to Arhat. Obviously it is not the case for most of us. I (and many others, I am sure) have read and considered 100x the amount of what was needed for some to become an Arhat. So information is not what we lack, IMHO. Actual experience and skill in applying what is learnt, is. IMHO. > > =============== > > I think you are referring here, and in the rest of your post, to >the attainment of enlightenment. My question was directed to the >development of satipatthana (at any level). The patisambhidamagga suggest that satipatthana is lokuttara. Most of the time, IMHO, one doesn't do satipatthana - it is work of sanna and or yoniso manasikaro. IMHO real insight isn't read or speculated about, it is experienced. > > > =============== > > How are you going to get insight if the hindrances overpower you >and cloud that which is seen? > > =============== > > There can be kusala moments (including insight) in among the >akusala moments. But for how long and are those "billionth of a second" kusala moments significantly count compared to many more unwholesome tendencies? Howard has provided good sutta quotes that do show that without suppressing the hindrances one cannot develop wisdom or the path. I don't know about others, but for me the short "billionth of a second" kusala moments do not do as my defilements are too strong for that. So hindrances must be suppressed first. Period. End of discussion on this topic. The only thing we could discuss is the amount of suppression needed, which is highly individualized. AN 5.23 and AN 5.51 make it clear - Hindrances are obstacles. >Sarah: >As B.Bodhi summarises in his introduction to his translation of the >Brahmajala Sutta and its commentaries ("The All-Embracing Net of >Views", a great number, (if not the majority) of the 62 wrong views >described have their source in "the experience of meditative >attainments", which I understand to be referring to jhanas and other >samatha attainments. The point is valid. One can misinterpret anything. This is why I believe in the importance of sutta study. Unlike them, those who study suttas and have right "theoretical views" may not always be caught in the above. So it doesn't apply to all Buddhists. >S:"Reply: It is not the mere employment of the expression that is >intended here, but the wrong adherence which occurs through a >perversion of perception....." Not all meditators believe in a Self or control. >S:" 'Develops'(bhaavetii) means to beget, produce, increase (janeti, >uppaadeti, va.d.dheti). This is the meaning of bhaavanaa here. Right. Meditation (bhavana) is no different and I haven't claimed otherwise. The problem as I see it for what some teach here is that it simply irrelevant for people with strong defilements. They obstruct wisdom AN5.51, otherwise we'd be like Bahiya - already Arahants. "And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html Until you abandon the hindrances, all study is just concepts and important preliminary step. If "momentary, billionth of a second" suppression is enough for some, it is not enough for me. I think that this applies for many people. Jhana suppresses hindrances well, and repeating Jhana again and again, on higher and higher level makes hindrances weaker. ""Now, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html With metta, Alex #107373 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 4:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How to be a good guy? Be one. truth_aerator Dear Lukas, all, This is one of the reasons that you need Jhana. Strong and regular Jhana suppresses hindrances for a long time. When one has access to bliss far greater than sensual, the mind NATURALLY lets go of the coarser pleasure for the greater. "And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html Until you abandon the hindrances, all study is just concepts and important only as a preliminary step. If "momentary, billionth of a second" suppression is enough for some, it is not enough for me. I think that this applies for many people. Jhana suppresses hindrances well, and repeating Jhana again and again, on higher and higher level makes hindrances weaker and weaker. ""Now, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html In DN29 PTS DN 3.131 the real 4 Jhanas are said to lead to: "viragaya nirodhaya upasamaya abhinnaya sambodhaya nibbanaya samvattanti" "...to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to awakening, to Nibbana." 25. It may happen, Cunda, that Wanderers teaching other doctrines than ours may declare : For those who live addicted and devoted to these four modes of pleasure[alex: 4 jhanas], brother, how much fruit, how many advantages are to be expected ? Them ye should answer thus : Four kinds of fruit, brother, four advantages are to be expected. What are the four ? Firstly, the case of a brother who by the complete destruction of the three fetters becomes a Stream-winner, saved from disaster hereafter, certain to attain Enlightenment. Secondly, the case of a brother who by the complete destruction of three fetters has so diminished passion and hate and illusion that he has become a Once- Returner, and returning but once to this world will make an end of ill. Thirdly, the case of a brother who, by the complete destruction of the five last fetters, will be reborn in another world, thence never to return, there to pass away. Fourthly, the case of the brother who, by the destruction of the mental Intoxicants, has come to know and realize for himself, even in this life, emancipation of intellect and emancipation of insight, and therein abides. These, brother, are the four kinds of fruit, the four advantages to be expected by those who are addicted and devoted to those four modes of pleasure. http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Pasadika_Sutta With metta, Alex #107374 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 9:25 pm Subject: Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi pt, ---------- pt: > I'm sorry as it seems that my questions are pitting you against one another. ----------- Don't worry Ken O and me, we are not fighting. :-) ------------------ pt: > I am surprised by this disagreement because it seems to be on a rather fundamental matter, and I can't really figure out who's right since you all make good arguments. That's why I'm still hoping that someone will supply a good quote which will address this matter specifically, in particular regarding: 1. object of citta in the moment of vipassana can only be a dhamma, not a concept? 2. a concept doesn't have the characteristics? 3. panna does not distinguish between a dhamma and a concept (so which cetasika does that, if at all?)? ---------------------- I was pleased to see Jon's reply to those questions. (Let's me off the hook!) ---------------------- pt: >(and since I have this chance to ask) 4. can akusala citta have a dhamma as the object? ---------------------- Yes. For an example take any sense-door citta process: a sense-object is experienced by vipakka cittas and subsequently by javana cittas. The javana cittas are always either kusala or akusala. According to some explanations, several mind-door cittas processes have to take place before there can be *strong* kusala and akusala. It is a matter of proliferation; stories and old memories are provoked by the sense-object and, as they are dwelt upon, reactions become stronger and stronger. Also according to some explanations I have heard, strong kusala/akusala can sometimes arise in sense-door cittas (and in mind-door cittas that have a dhamma as their object). It's a matter of several cittas taking place in a tiny space of time. Strong kamma that was directed at a concept in one citta can condition strong kamma to arise in a subsequent citta where an associated dhamma is the object. Ken H #107375 From: han tun Date: Sun May 2, 2010 11:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? hantun1 Dear Nina and Philip, Philip: I read some stirring words on appamada in SN 3 today. They made me wonder how appamada is taught in paramattha terms. It's different from sati, I feel. To be honest, my prejudiced view is that it might be an example of how not all wholesome mind states/atttitudes were meant by the Buddha to be reduced to a single momentary dhamma. But for the time being, if someone could tell me how abhidhamma explains it I would appreciate it. -------- Nina: Lack of mindfulness, forgetfulness arises with each akusala citta. Whereas sati accompanies each kusala citta. We consider here moments, moments of citta. What else is there but citta arising and falling away each moment. We have to learn the difference between the momets of sati and the moments of forgetfulness. Then we shall better understand the meaning of heedfulness and forgetfulness. They arise because of their own conditions. There is no self who can make heedfulness arise. When the Buddha encourages people telling them to act as if their head is on fire, it will help people not being forgetful, and that means, not being forgetful of the reality of this moment, such as thinking about heedfulness. ---------- Han: I thank Nina for explaining the difference between sati and forgetfulness (pamaada). But I would be grateful to know the difference between sati and appamaada (as Philip had asked). Are they the same or different? Respectfully, Han #107376 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun May 2, 2010 11:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ------------ KH: > >Perhaps you can tell me the characteristics of a flying purple elephant? > > KO: > it is not the flying purple elephant that one should be concern with, it is the mental profileration that arise with the flying purple. Without thinking will there be flying purple element, without lobha of liking this flying purple elephant, it would not continue. ------------ Good, I am glad we are not talking about concepts having inherent characteristics. I agree it is the proliferations that cause trouble. If there was more right understanding (of the difference between concepts and realities) there would be less proliferation. However, when you say we "should be concerned" with these proliferations, you bring us back to the cause of our disagreements. I know it is just a figure of speech, but to say we should be concerned (about anything in absolute reality) is misleading. There are only dhammas, after all - nothing to be concerned about either with dread or with longing. Dhammas just roll on, doing their own thing, without any regard for controller or for a concerned onlooker. -------------------------- KH: > >If illusory objects had characteristics then those characteristics would be equally illusory. > > KO: > You are thinking of the concepts, you are not looking at the dhamma that arise with the concepts. --------------------------- But isn't that what we were talking about - knowing concepts? -------------------------------- KH: > >Nothing can be *used for* satipatthana. A dhamma can be the *object of* satipatthana, but that is a different matter. There is no using - no method - involved, just right understanding of whatever dhamma-arammana may have arisen. > > KO: > Did the text support your position, where is the reference to your position. Pse do not give me explanation because I could explain in this way. Then also I could also explain in another way. I could show you text, but could you show me your textual support. --------------------------------- I don't want to play by your rules because I disagree with them. Dhamma study is all about understanding what has been taught; it is not about parroting quotes. Here's one, but it probably won't do any good: "Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes For the past has been left behind and the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state" (One-Auspicious-Night Sutta) It won't do any good if it is read with conventional understanding instead of with Dhamma understanding. :-) ------------------------------- <. . .> KH: > >Citta doesn't select its object (arammana). If a presently arisen dhamma becomes the arammana then there is a potential for satipatthana. If a concept of a dhamma becomes the arammana then there is a potential for pariyatti (right theoretical understanding). If some other concept becomes the arammana, then satipatthana is not an option at that time. > > KO: > Wrong, why simple, a concept can condition aksuala to arise. If a concept can conditon aksuala to arise, so it could condition panna to arise. Since you said citta does not select its object, do you think panna can? :-). -------------------------------- I think we are straying off the topic. We were talking about "methods" for bringing about satipatthana. I said the question of methods did not arise because the only possible object of satipatthana was the present arammana. (That is not to say that other presently arisen dhammas are not available to be known by panna in subsequent cittas, of course.) ------------------ KH: > >There is need for concern, or for choosing arammanas. Nor is their any possibility of choosing; dhammas just flow on, uncontrolled. > > KO: > dont you find yourself contradicting, you said satipathanna is not an option when concept becomes the arammana, isn't that selectng and choosing. ------------------ No, it's just like star-watching not being an option on a cloudy night. It has nothing to do with selecting and choosing. Ken H #107377 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon May 3, 2010 2:36 am Subject: flying purple elephant truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, > KH: > >Perhaps you can tell me the characteristics of a flying >purple elephant? It is flying, it is purple in color, it looks like an elephant and it is totally fictitious. > Good, I am glad we are not talking about concepts having inherent >characteristics. What about characteristic of anicca, dukkha, anatta? Or are you saying that concepts are atta and nicca? IMHO they must have characteristics like anicca, dukkha, anatta. With metta, Alex #107378 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon May 3, 2010 2:55 am Subject: Profound Peace! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How differs Death and Ceasing of Perception and Feeling ? Venerable Mahakotthita once asked Venerable Sariputta : Friend, what is the difference between a dead body and a Bhikkhu, who has attained the state of cessation of perception and feeling? Venerable Sariputta then answered: Friend, in a dead body the bodily activity is stilled and has all ceased. The verbal activity is stilled and has all ceased. The mental activity is stilled and has all ceased. The metabolic life activity is exhausted. The heat has dissipated, and the mental abilities have all broken up and been destroyed. In the bhikkhu, who has attained to the cessation of perception and feeling, All bodily activity and breathing is stilled and has all ceased; All verbal activity and all thinking is stilled and has ceased; All mental activity and all sensing is stilled and has ceased; But the metabolic life activity is not exhausted. The heat has not dissipated. Furthermost: The mental abilities have then become exceptionally clear ... !!! Friend, this is the difference between a dead body and a Bhikkhu, who has attained to the meditative state of cessation of perception and feeling... <...> Source: MN 43 The Great Speech of Questions and Answers. For definitions of the terms: See: The Minor Speech of Questions and Answers. MN 44 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn044.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #107379 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 3, 2010 6:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? nilovg Dear Han, Op 3-mei-2010, om 1:15 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But I would be grateful to know the difference between sati and > appamaada (as Philip had asked). > Are they the same or different? -------- N: Sati: sati cetasika that is classified among the sobhana cetasikas. It arises with each sobhana citta. Appamaada: watchfulness, earnestness, carefulness. This describes a situation consisting of several cittas with mindfulness, non- forgetfulness. It is effectful in exhortations not to be forgetful, not relinquishing the task of developing satipa.t.thaana. ------- Nina. #107380 From: han tun Date: Mon May 3, 2010 8:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your clarification. Nina: Sati: sati cetasika that is classified among the sobhana cetasikas. It arises with each sobhana citta. Appamaada: watchfulness, earnestness, carefulness. This describes a situation consisting of several cittas with mindfulness, non- forgetfulness. It is effectful in exhortations not to be forgetful, not relinquishing the task of developing satipa.t.thaana. ----------- Han: Please allow me to add a little. In DN 16 Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta, "And now, monks, I declare to you: all conditioned things are of a nature to decay; strive on untiringly". (Maurice Walshe) "handa daani bhikkhave aamantayaami vo, vaya dhammaa sa"nkhaaraa appamaadena sampaadethaa" Han: Appamaada, here, is an exhortation as you had mentioned. ---------- In AN 10.15 Appamaada Sutta, "Monks, among all living beings; be they footless or two-footed, with four feet or many feet, with form or formless, percipient, non-percipient or neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient; the Tathaagata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, is reckoned the best of them all. So too, whatever wholesome states there are, they are all rooted in diligence, converge upon diligence, and diligence is reckoned the best of them all." (Bhikkhu Bodhi) "Yaavataa bhikkhave sattaa apadaa vaa dvipadaa vaa catuppadaa vaa bahuppadaa vaa ruupino vaa aruupino vaa sa~n~nino vaa asa~n~nino vaa nevasa~n~ninaasa~n~nino vaa, tathaagato teas.m aggamakkhaayati araha.m sammaasabbuddho. Evameva kho bhikkhave ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati." Han: All wholesome states (sabbe kusala dhamma) are many. For practical purposes, a Burmese Sayadaw once said that the fourteen entities that constitute the thirty-seven requisites of enlightenment (Bodhipakkhiya dhammas) are all rooted in diligence (appamaadamuulakaa), converge upon diligence (appamaadasamosara.naa), and diligence is reckoned the best of them all (appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati). The fourteen entities are one citta, and thirteen cetasikas, namely, viriya, sati, pa~n~naa, ekaggataa, saddhaa, vitakka (samma sankappa), passaddhi, piiti, tatramajjhattataa, chanda, sammaa vaacaa, sammaa kammanta, sammaa aajiiva. (The fourteen entities are mentioned on page 283 of CMA). Thus, coming back to the original question: the difference between sati and appamaada, appamaada is much, much broader and more significant than sati. I am sure you know all these things. Perhaps, you did not mention all these just to keep your reply short. Respectfully, Han #107381 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 3, 2010 8:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening nilovg Dear Lukas, I promised to return to this subject. Op 27-apr-2010, om 16:08 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Does Khun Sujin commented samatha objects? > > How does she explained reflections on foulness of the body? > Can I apply to that object as explained in Visudhimagga? Shall I > sit and do verbal or mental chantings: this is kidney, this is skin > etc.? > And consider foulness of the body? > > Does this give me more calm or more understanding? --------- N: Kh Sujin is going over all the parts of the body as explained in the Co. to the Vibhanga, the Dispeller of Delusion. Just reciting without manasikara does not help much. But when one hears again and again about the parts of the body, it can condition one's thinking very naturally. Sometimes there can be awareness of naama or ruupa, but nobody can prevent thinking. There can be thinking with kusala citta and calm about the parts of the body. There is the method (naya) of samatha and the method of vipassanaa. The bodyparts can be seen as elements devoid of self. This is stressed in the Co. When eating, no self at work, but only elements. Usually we eat with lobha, but we can be reminded that there is no self who pushes down the food and let it go out of the body, but the elements of earth and motion do their work. There is no need to look for the earth element, other ruupas may appear one at a time. It all depends on sati. No selection, no rule, anything can appear. Perhaps there is a moment of calm, reflecting on foulness, or there is awareness of an element as non-self. ---------- You were concerned about not being able to change habits. When sati arises it sees the wrong of akusala and it encourages not to do what is wrong. But, you will say, sati does not arise. There is a lot of thinking, mostly wrong thinking. That is why the Buddha helped people in many ways, with the aim to encourage them to kusala instead of akusala. See the sutta of the removal of distracting thoughts, recently referred to. If one way does not help some other way can help, depending on the individual. Nobody knows in advance what object citta will take, and in what way: in a wholesome way or in an unwholesome way. ****** Nina. #107382 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 3, 2010 8:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? nilovg Dear Han, Op 3-mei-2010, om 10:10 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Thus, coming back to the original question: the difference between > sati and appamaada, appamaada is much, much broader and more > significant than sati. -------- N: Thank you very much for your useful additions and the quote of the Sayadaw we always appreciate. Appamaada is broader, it includes many realities that all work together. As to being more significant, here I hesitate. When we see sati in the whole context of all the sobhana cetasikas as classified in the Abhidhamma and in the context of satipa.t.thaana, it is very significant. We should not see it as being isolated. In the context of satipa.t.thaana, it arises with right understanding of realities. Nina. #107383 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon May 3, 2010 8:27 am Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening szmicio Dear Nina, > Dear Lukas, > I promised to return to this subject. > Op 27-apr-2010, om 16:08 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > > Does Khun Sujin commented samatha objects? > > > > How does she explained reflections on foulness of the body? > > Can I apply to that object as explained in Visudhimagga? Shall I > > sit and do verbal or mental chantings: this is kidney, this is skin > > etc.? > > And consider foulness of the body? > > > > Does this give me more calm or more understanding? > --------- > N: Kh Sujin is going over all the parts of the body as explained in > the Co. to the Vibhanga, the Dispeller of Delusion. Just reciting > without manasikara does not help much. But when one hears again and > again about the parts of the body, it can condition one's thinking > very naturally. L: This IS EXACTLY How I feel that. This is why I dont understand this object as described in Visudhi. I know that after reading there can be this applying, very natural kusala, and natural applying to the object. But I dont understand, like I have to sit and do this and that, there is mostly lobha and ignorance. Best wishes Lukas #107384 From: han tun Date: Mon May 3, 2010 10:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: Thank you very much for your useful additions and the quote of the Sayadaw we always appreciate. Appamaada is broader, it includes many realities that all work together. As to being more significant, here I hesitate. When we see sati in the whole context of all the sobhana cetasikas as classified in the Abhidhamma and in the context of satipa.t.thaana, it is very significant. We should not see it as being isolated. In the context of satipa.t.thaana, it arises with right understanding of realities. ---------- Han: [Thus, coming back to the original question: the difference between sati and appamaada, appamaada is much, much broader and more significant than sati] was my personal conclusion, not Sayadaw's comment. I have even stronger statements in mind in praise of appamaada above anything else. But I will not make any more statements, and accept your wise comments about the significance of sati. Respectfully, Han #107385 From: "philip" Date: Mon May 3, 2010 1:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? philofillet Dear Nina, Han and all Thank you for your feedback to my inquiry. Things are clearer now especially after the following that Nina wrote: "This describes a situation consisting of several cittas with mindfulness, non- forgetfulness." I had been seeing appamada more as a state of mind composed of many cittas rather than a single dhamma so this feels like a confirmation. I add this footnote I found in Ven. Analaayo's book on satipatthana, "Satipatthana:the Direct Path to Realization." "This parallels the commentarial understanding of the related term appamada as undistracted mindfulness, satiyaa avippavaaso." (e.g Sv I 104 or Dhp a IV, sorry I can't supply the full commentary titles that those abbreviations refer to, you probably know them. ) Metta, Phil p.s Han, please say hello to Tep at the other group, as you know I have been pretty much away from Dhamma discussion, so have not been dropping by. #107386 From: Ken O Date: Mon May 3, 2010 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How to be a good guy? ashkenn2k Dear Lukas >L: I really understand the changing by graduall development of satipatthana. I feel this help gradually to have less ignorance. >thinking, seein, hearing... > >But I am not able how can I change habits by developemnt of samatha. >This doesnt work on me. KO:? try the one that is most suitable for you.? if samatha is not the correct way, then use seeing, hearing etc?that suits you.? ?No hard and fast rule, select those that suits your way of thinking.? Cheers Ken O #107387 From: Ken O Date: Mon May 3, 2010 3:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ashkenn2k Dear Ken H > >KO: > it is not the flying purple elephant that one should be concern with, it is the mental profileration that arise with the flying purple. Without thinking will there be flying purple element, without lobha of liking this flying purple elephant, it would not continue. >------------ > >Good, I am glad we are not talking about concepts having inherent characteristics. > >I agree it is the proliferations that cause trouble. If there was more right understanding (of the difference between concepts and realities) there would be less proliferation. > >However, when you say we "should be concerned" with these proliferations, you bring us back to the cause of our disagreements. I know it is just a figure of speech, but to say we should be concerned (about anything in absolute reality) is misleading. There are only dhammas, after all - nothing to be concerned about either with dread or with longing. Dhammas just roll on, doing their own thing, without any regard for controller or for a concerned onlooker. >But isn't that what we were talking about - knowing concepts? > KO:???Dhamma dont just roll on, it is condition by the present dhamma.? If it is not, there would not be any roll on. ? If dhamma just roll on, then it is believe in fatalism.??The understanding of paramatha dhamma is not about understanding between concepts and dhammas, if it is, it would be written in many of the texts.? Rather, the Abhidhamma text focus on the dhammas, for one good reason, to understand dhamma as anatta and not to understand the difference between concepts and dhamma.?? Also because panna penetrate any mental objects, so there is no need to be concern whether the object is a concept or not.?? And concepts arise with dhamma :-) >I don't want to play by your rules because I disagree with them. Dhamma study is all about understanding what has been taught; it is not about parroting quotes. > KO:? now in some suttas, why did Buddha stress on looking at the text as the source of validity and not on one's understanding because he has compassion for future generations.? IMHO, he knows in future we will think too highly of our own understanding and interpretation and forget it is all in the texts.?We listen to different teachers yet all the explanations are in the texts written by ancient masters and/or spoken by Buddha himself.? So who do you wish to believe, your own understanding, a teacher understanding or the ancient masters commentaries.???Also I dont fix the rules, I dont interpret or say it is a matter of interpretation,?I present what is written in the text by ancient masters.?? ?The ancient text is very clear and undeniable, there?are methods, there?are rules, there?are concepts used for development of satipatthana.? >Here's one, but it probably won't do any good: > >"Let not a person revive the past >Or on the future build his hopes >For the past has been left behind >and the future has not been reached. >Instead with insight let him see >Each presently arisen state" >(One-Auspicious- Night Sutta) > >It won't do any good if it is read with conventional understanding instead of with Dhamma understanding. :-) > KO:? That only happens at least?when one is in vipassana nana.? So we have to read the sutta correctly, when it is refering to mundane and when it is?refering to vipassna nana or supradmundane.??If there is no conventional undersatanding, you think you can develop?to vipassana nana level.? So you think your undersanding is at paramatha?level now.? I think?you should stop deluding yourself.???? As long as our panna?does not penetrate directly, what we learn now are just nimittas of the paramatha dhamma and not yet the direct paramatha dhamma. What we know now, are just conventional dhammas so dont think it is?direct dhamma now.? >------------ --------- --------- -- > >I think we are straying off the topic. We were talking about "methods" for bringing about satipatthana. I said the question of methods did not arise because the only possible object of satipatthana was the present arammana. > >(That is not to say that other presently arisen dhammas are not available to be known by panna in subsequent cittas, of course.) > KO:? methods are mere concepts :-)? if listening and reading which are concepts can condition panna, why cant methods of 32 parts and breathing which are concepts.? Any difference :-).? Anyway mind can be directed though, not by you or me, because there are dhammas that direct the mind.? If your mind does not intent or direct to listening, will one able to listen.? Cheers >------------ ------ > >No, it's just like star-watching not being an option on a cloudy night. It has nothing to do with selecting and choosing. > KO:? sure you are just wriggling your way through.? cloudy night can be condition kusala and aksuala, and panna does not mind whether it is cloudy night or with stars or no stars?or it is just visible objects, or just thinking or just seeing.? It does not make a difference to panna as long as it penetrates the understanding of anatta?:-).? ?I give you an interesting statement, when one understanding seeing sees, it is already in the mental process and not in the sense process.? However when one understand visible object, it is in the sense process and?then in?the mental process.??? cheers Ken O #107388 From: Ken O Date: Mon May 3, 2010 3:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] flying purple elephant ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >What about characteristic of anicca, dukkha, anatta? >Or are you saying that concepts are atta and nicca? KO:? nope they dont have > >IMHO they must have characteristics like anicca, dukkha, anatta. KO:? only dhamma rise can understand these characteristics and not the object itself be it concepts or dhammas Cheers Ken O #107389 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon May 3, 2010 5:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] flying purple elephant truth_aerator Dear KenO, KenH, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > > > >What about characteristic of anicca, dukkha, anatta? > >Or are you saying that concepts are atta and nicca? > > KO:? nope they dont have > > > > >IMHO they must have characteristics like anicca, dukkha, anatta. > > KO:? only dhamma rise can understand these characteristics and not the object itself be it concepts or dhammas > > > Cheers > Ken O > All concepts are creations of sanna and other relevant aggregates and are based on namarupa. The namarupa aggregates are anicca, dukkha, anatta. The concepts are based on them, therefore concepts are also anicca, dukkha & anatta (like their basis, namarupa). SABBE SANKHARA ANICCA. Concepts are sankhata. With metta, Alex #107390 From: han tun Date: Mon May 3, 2010 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? hantun1 Dear Phil, > p.s Han, please say hello to Tep at the other group, as you know I have been pretty much away from Dhamma discussion, so have not been dropping by. Han: I will do that, Phil. I am also writing less at that forum. The topics that Tep is discussing with Alex and Nori are quite deep for me and I do not want to scratch my head and think now-a-days. So my role is limited to the provision of Pali text in some posts. with metta and respect, Han #107391 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon May 3, 2010 11:42 pm Subject: Five x Five! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: 5 x 5 Core Buddhist Categories: There are 5 Mental Abilities : 1: Faith , 2: Energy , 3: Awareness , 4: Concentration 5: Understanding . There are 5 Rules of Training : 1: No Killing, 2: No Stealing, 3: No Lying, 4: No Sexual Abuse, 5: No Alcohol or Drugs. There are 5 Clusters of Clinging to: 1: Form, 2: Feeling, 3: Perception, 4: Construction 5: Consciousness. There are 5 Mental Hindrances: 1: Sense-Desire, 2: Anger, 3: Lethargy & Laziness, 4: Regret & Restlessness, 5: Doubt & Uncertainty. There are 5 Destinations right after Death: Hell, Animal, Hungry Ghost, Human Being or Deity. <...> Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nika-ya 33 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sama-hita _/\_ Sri #107392 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue May 4, 2010 5:13 am Subject: Re: How to be a good guy? szmicio Dear Ken O, > KO:? try the one that is most suitable for you.? if samatha is not the correct way, then use seeing, hearing etc?that suits you.? ?No hard and fast rule, select those that suits your way of thinking.? L: I read mindfulness occupied with the body recollection from Visudhi. It looks like I have to sit and start verbal recitation first. Go from feet to head and back. And apply to different methods. This leads to samatha. But what way shall i reflect parts of the body if I want stay with vipassana? To be honest I've learned that my only chance to develop more kusala is vipassana. This always bring kusala. If I try samatha methods this makes me disappointed and brings a lot of clinging. This is like a dog that is close in seperate room. If you close the door he starts barking, but if you put the door open just a bit, he stop barking and go to sleep. This is me with vipassana, I dont think much of kusala development, so I can take rest and then kusala appears. Best wishes Lukas #107393 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue May 4, 2010 6:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Jon, KenH and KenO, Thanks very much for your replies and quotes. I really appreciate it. Best wishes pt #107394 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 4, 2010 8:32 am Subject: Abhidhamma Series no. 12. Feelings (Part 2). nilovg > Dear friends, > > no. 12. Feelings (Part 2). > > Domanassa, unhappy feeling, arises only with cittas of the jaati > which is akusala; it always arises with dosa-muula-citta, citta > rooted in aversion, it does not arise with lobha-muula-citta, citta > rooted in attachment, nor with moha-muula-citta, citta rooted in > ignorance. > When we see someone else suffer, we have compassion and want to > help him. However, kusala cittas and akusala cittas arise closely > one after the other. We may be sad because of someone else?s > suffering and then akusala citta rooted in dosa, aversion, arises. > At such a moment there is no compassion, but we may not notice this. > Upekkhaa, indifferent feeling, is different from somanassa and from > domanassa; it is neither happy nor unhappy. Upekkhaa can arise with > cittas of all four jaatis, but it does not arise with every citta. > Indifferent feeling can accompany lobha-muula-citta.When we walk > or when we get hold of different things we use in our daily life, > such as a pen or a book, there is bound to be clinging even when we > do not feel particularly glad. We cling to life and we want to go > on living and receiving sense-impressions. > Seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting which are vipaakacittas > experiencing a pleasant or unpleasant object, are always > accompanied by indifferent feeling. Often it is not known whether > the object experienced by these cittas was pleasant or unpleasant, > they fall away immediately. When a pleasant or unpleasant tangible > ob- ject is experienced through the bodysense, the body- > consciousness, which is vipaakacitta, is not accompanied by > indifferent feeling but by pleasant bodily feeling or by painful > bodily feeling. The impact of tangible object on the bodysense is > more intense than the impact of the other sense objects on the > corresponding senses. > Pleasant bodily feeling and painful bodily feeling are naama. We > can call them 'bodily feeling' because they are conditioned by > impact on the bodysense. When, for example, temperature which is > just the right amount of heat or cold impinges on the bodysernse > the body-consciousness which experiences it is accompanied by > pleasant bodiIy feeling. Body-consciousness is vipaakacitta and in > this case kusala vipaakacitta. When it experiences a pleasant > object, it is the result of kusala kamma, a wholesome deed, and > when it experiences an unpleasant object, it is the result of > akusala kamma, an unwholesome deed. > We attach great importance to feeling, we let ourselves be carried > away > by the feelings which arise on account of pleasant or unpleasant ob > jects we > experience through the senses. The Buddha classified feeling as a > separate khandha because people cling very much to feeling. We are > enslaved to our feelings, but they are only realities which arise > because of the appropriate conditions and do not last. > > -------------- > Nina. > #107395 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 4, 2010 8:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? nilovg Dear Han, Op 3-mei-2010, om 12:48 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I have even stronger statements in mind in praise of appamaada > above anything else. But I will not make any more statements, and > accept your wise comments about the significance of sati. ------- N: Yes, do praise appamaada, we would like to hear this. What does it personally mean to you? Always edifying to hear this. Nina. #107396 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue May 4, 2010 10:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ------------ KH: > > Dhammas just roll on, doing their own thing, without any regard for controller or for a concerned onlooker. KO: > Dhamma dont just roll on, it is condition by the present dhamma.? If it is not, there would not be any roll on. ? ------------- Yes, they are conditioned, and therefore they roll on. Isn't that what I said? :-) -------------------- KO: > If dhamma just roll on, then it is believe in fatalism.?? --------------------- I don't follow your reasoning, but it doesn't matter; we both agree that dhammas arise and fall away by conditions. ---------------------------------- KO: > The understanding of paramatha dhamma is not about understanding between concepts and dhammas, ---------------------------------- It is the essential first step; Dhamma students should learn *from the beginning* the difference between concepts and realities. -------------------------------------------- KO: > if it is, it would be written in many of the texts.? -------------------------------------------- It is. Where it is not expressly stated, "anatta" says it all. The fact of anatta means that all conventional reality is just illusion. --------------------------- KO: > Rather, the Abhidhamma text focus on the dhammas, for one good reason, to understand dhamma as anatta and not to understand the difference between concepts and dhamma.?? ---------------------------- That's true, but to understand dhammas as anatta you must first know what dhammas are. Most Buddhists these days are looking for anatta in concepts. ---------------------------------- KO: > Also because panna penetrate any mental objects, so there is no need to be concern whether the object is a concept or not.?? ----------------------------------- See above. :-) -------------------------------------------- KO: > And concepts arise with dhamma :-) -------------------------------------------- I don't know what you mean by that. Concepts don't arise. They don't do anything. And even though there are always dhammas, there is only one object-of-consciousness at a time. And so when a concept is the object citta can't be experiencing a dhamma. -------- KO:? > methods are mere concepts :-)? if listening and reading which are concepts can condition panna, why cant methods of 32 parts and breathing which are concepts.? Any difference :-).? -------- If listening and reading are seen as methods for developing samatha and vipassana then there is wrong view and a wrong path is being followed. The same goes for the 32 parts and breathing. -------------------- KO: > Anyway mind can be directed though, not by you or me, because there are dhammas that direct the mind.? If your mind does not intent or direct to listening, will one able to listen.? --------------------- Do you want to direct the mind? If you do, it is because you don't understand that there is only the present moment. There is no "you" who will continue on to a future moment. So you will never experience the object you are trying to direct the mind to. Nor will anyone else experience it,there are only dhammas. Ken H #107397 From: han tun Date: Tue May 4, 2010 10:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada in paramattha terms? hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: Yes, do praise appamaada, we would like to hear this. What does it personally mean to you? Always edifying to hear this. Han: Alright, Nina, I will tell you what appamaada means to me. You had written: [As to being more significant, here I hesitate. When we see sati in the whole context of all the sobhana cetasikas as classified in the Abhidhamma and in the context of satipa.t.thaana, it is very significant. We should not see it as being isolated. In the context of satipa.t.thaana, it arises with right understanding of realities.] Now, if there is pamaada, and if there is no appamaada, there will be no sati and no satipa.t.thaana. In Dhammapada Verse 21, it says: "Appamaado amatapada.m, pamaado maccuno pada.m" "Appamaada is the way to the Deathless, pamaaada is the way to Death." [By the way, I cannot find a suitable English word for appamaada, and so I use it in Pali.] Now, if there is pamaada, and if there is no appamaada, it is not me (Han Tun) who dies. But all the kusala dhammas die. If there is pamaada, and if there is no appamaada, the daana is dead, siila is dead, bhaavanaa is dead, sati and samaadhi are dead, and pa~n~naa is dead. In short, all kusala dhammas are dead. Because, as the Buddha had said: "sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati" if there is no appamaada, there will be no muula for the kusala dhammas to base upon, and there will be no converging point [samosara.naa] for the kusala dhammas. [For the importance of converging point please read on.] In AN 10.15 Appamaada Sutta (which I had quoted) the Buddha gave ten examples of appamaada. One of them is as follows: "Just as all the rafters of a peaked house flow towards the roof peak, slope towards the roof peak, converge upon the roof peak, and the roof peak is reckoned the best of them all. So too, whatever wholesome states there are, they are all rooted in diligence, converge upon diligence, and diligence is reckoned the best of them all." (Bhikkhu Bodhi) "Seyyathaapi bhikkhave kuu.taagaarassa yaa kaaci gopaanasiyo sabbaa taa kuu.ta"ngamaa kuu.taninnaa kuu.tasamosara.naa, kuu.to taasa.m aggamakkhaayati. Evameva kho bhikkhave ye keci kusalaa dhammaa, sabbe te appamaadamuulakaa appamaadasamosara.naa, appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati". Thus, if there is no converging point of appamaada for the kusala dhammas, all of them will fall away like the rafters will fall away if there is no roof peak (kuu.taagaara) for them to converge. Furthermore, it is said that "According to the Commentary, appamaada embraces all the meanings of the words of the Buddha in the Tipi.taka." [Source: The Dhammapada: Verses and Stories, published by Burma Pi.taka Association. 1986. page 9] And, as I had said before, appamaada was the last word used by the Buddha in his exhortation just before his mahaaparinibbana. Therefore, I strongly believe that appamaada is the most significant of all kusala dhammas (appamaado teas.m dhammaana.m aggamakkhaayati). Respectfully, Han #107398 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue May 4, 2010 5:24 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Series no. 12. Feelings (Part 2). szmicio Dear Nina, Thanks for this very useful series. There is so much forgetfulness in life. Please tell me about is sati. sati in samatha is different than sati in vipassana? Best wishes Lukas > > Domanassa, unhappy feeling, arises only with cittas of the jaati > > which is akusala; it always arises with dosa-muula-citta, citta > > rooted in aversion, it does not arise with lobha-muula-citta, citta > > rooted in attachment, nor with moha-muula-citta, citta rooted in > > ignorance. > > When we see someone else suffer, we have compassion and want to > > help him. However, kusala cittas and akusala cittas arise closely > > one after the other. We may be sad because of someone else's > > suffering and then akusala citta rooted in dosa, aversion, arises. > > At such a moment there is no compassion, but we may not notice this. #107399 From: "Mike" Date: Tue May 4, 2010 9:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Little selves? mikenz66 Hi KenH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > ------------ > KH: > > Dhammas just roll on, doing their own thing, without any regard for controller or for a concerned onlooker. > > KO: > Dhamma dont just roll on, it is condition by the present dhamma.? If it is not, there would not be any roll on. ? > ------------- > > KH: Yes, they are conditioned, and therefore they roll on. Isn't that what I said? :-) Mike: Presumably you mean something different by "rolling on" than I do. I would have taken it to mean that they are not affected by anything else, like a wheel rolling down a hill. Since there is rhe entire Book of Relations describing in detail how each dhamma is conditioned by others I must be misinterpreting the expression. Mike: In any case, since dhammas are said to rise and fall extremely rapidly, is "rolling on" really a helpful description? The entire "process" might be considered to be "rolling on", with no self, just a complicated sequence of conditioned dhammas giving rise to the rather complex manifestations of rupas, such as typing on this keyboard... Mike