#108600 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the ALL actually? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/22/2010 7:40:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, I have something of a split personality when it comes to historical Buddhism. On the one hand I don't want to know about it, I only want to know the Dhamma that is found in the Pali Canon. But on the other hand, I can't help being interested. -------------------- H: >Theravada, with its Abhidhamma Pitaka and commentaries, is a close descendant of one of the original 18 Buddhist schools. The sutta SN 22.95is not a "Theravada sutta" owned by that tradition. It is a "Buddhist sutta." It is a sutta directly spoken by the Buddha. --------------------- When you say 'the original 18 schools' are you saying there were literally 18 schools to begin with (which seems unlikely)? Or are you referring to the first eighteen schools (after seventeen schisms)? ------------------------------------------------- I have no idea as to the mode of development. There might have been one or several to start with, and then however many splits. There apparently were 18 early ones coexisting at some time. --------------------------------------------- --------------------------- H: > Most Mahayana schools, BTW, not only Theravada, also accept the original suttas as Buddha word, mostly in the form of the Agamas. Nagarjuna certainly knew the original suttas, and in our time, Ven Thich Nhat Hanh, for example, considers the Pali suttas to be Buddha word and venerates them. --------------------------- I suppose every school must claim to be the original one, mustn't it? Otherwise it would lose credibility. ------------------------------------------------ I don't think any of the Mahayana schools think they were first. But many accept a piece of mythology involving the (strictly) Mahayana Sutras, that traces the origin back to a very early point. (Some silliness involving "nagas" living underwater.) ----------------------------------------------- Whenever there has been a schism, I imagine each side has claimed to be the original, and called the other the offshoot. ----------------------------------------------- Probably so, and each would think it puts forward the "truth". In comparative religion circles, that is called "triumphalism". ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------- H: > This sutta is to be understood in accordance with the teachings given throughout the Sutta Pitaka, and not judged in cart-before-the-horse fashion by Theravada or Mahayana or any other after-the-fact tradition. -------------------------- Ah! I think I see where you are going with this. ---------------------------------- H: > The matter is just the opposite: The various traditions are to be judged by, and in accordance with their faithfulness to the direct teachings of the Buddha during the 45 years of giving the gift of Dhamma to people as he and his followers wandered across the land. ----------------------------------- Now that *is* what I call putting the cart before the horse. In effect you are saying we have to attain enlightenment and *then* decide which school to follow. ------------------------------------------- Nah, I'm not urging following ANY school, though I do personally think that the Pali Sutta Pitaka is as close to the Buddha's Dhamma as we can get, and I think the Theravadin Abhidhamma is of tremendous value. I also find much of value in parts of Mahayana (along with a good deal of what I consider nonsense as well.) ------------------------------------------ I would say choosing the right school was an essential first step. ----------------------------------------- My school days are long gone! ;-)) --------------------------------------- Otherwise, you will have just a book of suttas and your own interpretation of them. ----------------------------------------- I find good elucidation wherever I can. Ultimately, belief always comes down finally to one's own decision. ----------------------------------------- So you will have created your own school. And it's bound to be a wrong'n. The lineage just isn't there. :-) Ken H ============================ With metta, Howard Confidence Born of Knowing, Not Faith /'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.'/ (From the Kalama Sutta) #108601 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:04 am Subject: 18 schools truth_aerator Hello KenH, > When you say 'the original 18 schools' are you saying there were >literally 18 schools to begin with (which seems unlikely)? Or are you >referring to the first eighteen schools (after seventeen schisms)? Unfortunately it seems that there were 18-20 early schools by the 3rd council. Only Theravada (one of ~18) schools has survived because it moved to Sri Lanka before Buddhism was practically destroyed in India. Some other branches survived because they moved out of India and only few fragments from few schools have survived. 1st Council Three months after the passing of Buddha, according to scriptures, the first council was held at Rajagaha by some of his disciples who had attained arahantship (enlightenment). At this point, Theravada tradition maintains that no conflict about what the Buddha taught occurred, the teachings were divided into various parts and each was assigned to an elder and his pupils to commit to memory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Buddhist_schools The Second Buddhist council took place in Vesali, about one hundred years after the Buddha's Parinibbāna, in order to settle a serious dispute on Vinaya. The orthodox monks were able to convince the monks whose behaviour was under question. Accounts of the dispute are preserved in the Vinaya texts of several of the early Buddhist schools. Virtually all scholars agree that this second council was a historical event[1]. Some time after the Second Council, schisms occurred within the monastic Sangha, which resulted in the formation of several subgroups such as Sthaviravada, Mahasanghika and Sarvastivada.[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Second_Buddhist_Council The Third Buddhist council was convened in about 250 BCE at Asokarama in Patiliputta, supposedly under the patronage of Emperor Asoka. The reason for convening the Third Buddhist Council is reported to have been to rid the Sangha of corruption and bogus monks who held heretical views. It was presided over by the Elder Moggaliputta Tissa and one thousand monks participated in the Council. The council is recognized and known to both the Theravada and Mahayana schools, though its importance is central only to the Theravada school http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Buddhist_Council Some historians claim that by 3rd council (which formed about ~150 years after the Buddha) that there was Theravada Abhidhamma written or at least finished... I am not omniscient, I do not know. Then there were 2 Fourth Buddhist councils The Theravada had a Fourth Buddhist Council in the last century BC in Tambapanni, i.e. Sri Lanka, at Aloka Lena now Alu Vihara during the time of King Vattagamani-Abaya. Another Fourth Buddhist Council was held in the Sarvastivada tradition, said to have been convened by the Kushan emperor Kanishka, around 100 CE at Jalandhar or in Kashmir. Theravadins had The 5th council in 1871 and 6th in 1954. Now as for Theravada school. It depends on the sources that you consult. Some say that it emerged 240 BCE (which is later than Pudgalavada ~ 280 BCE ). It seems that original school was Sthaviravada which later become Vibhajjavada and later Theravada. Is the name change reflective of the change in doctrine or not? You know, when it comes to schisms, there are two sides to every schism and generally the winner of schism writes the history... Check out this timeline: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Buddhist_schools#Legacy With metta, Alex #108602 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:42 am Subject: Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail farrellkevin80 Hello Friends, It is said that some past Buddhas did not "teach the dhamma in detail"? What is the reason for this? What is the cause? Did they have many disciples? Why did they opt not to teach as much detail? Thanks! Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108603 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 23-jul-2010, om 4:42 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > It is said that some past Buddhas did not "teach the dhamma in > detail"? > > What is the reason for this? What is the cause? ------ N: Could you provide the text stating this? This is hard to answer. I would think that we need lots of details, otherwise we may have misunderstandings. Nina. #108604 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Lukas' questions to Ajahn Sujin, part 4. nilovg Dear Lukas, Lukas Q : When there is moha there is no understanding. Is it correct? Kh S: It is correct. Ann: What is the characteristic of di.t.thi ? Kh S: We may try very hard to know di.t.thi, but we do not know the actual moment of di.t.thi. When awareness arises with pa~n~naa, one knows when it is there. If there is no awareness one only knows words. ----------- Lukas Q : < 1. Can pa~n~na know concept when it impinge on mind-door? Do concepts have any characteristic? When I lead my normal life there are some moments of understanding of concept which impinge on mind- door.> Kh S: This is thinking, thinking of concepts about realities. Understanding can understand theoretical knowledge. Ann: There are different levels of understanding. Kh S: There can be understanding but no direct awareness yet. A moment of direct awareness is different. There are different levels of sati. Nobody should hope to have sati without there being conditions for its arising. When pa~n~naa is not strong enough it cannot condition awareness of areality. ------ Lukas Q. : < I find in my life that i have so many moments of mana. Is it correct? There is also a lot of thinking on account of mana, and I feel a lot of regrets about it.> N: Each object can be a condition for maana, also when we are not comparing. Kh S:When one studies Dhamma one thinks that one should know everything. We should start to learn what dhamma is from this very moment. In the beginning one does not know anything at all about dhamma, the reality that is appearing now. When one listens one can begin to see that what arises and appears at this moment is dhamma; one can understand it as dhamma. One can understand the characteristic of dhamma instead of thinking about the story of dhamma. --------- Nina. #108605 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Letters from NIna. In Time of grief (part 2) nilovg Dear friends, I have given only a few examples of bodily phenomena, (physical elements which constitute the body). These examples may help us to see that all the Buddha taught can be proven, through direct experience. Knowledge which is developed through direct experience is clearer than theoretical knowledge. The knowledge acquired through direct experience is the wisdom the Buddha taught his disciples to develop, so that all ignorance and clinging can be eradicated. Not only bodily elements arise and fall away, also what we call mind arises and falls away, each moment. There is not a mind or a soul which 'exists', there is only a moment of consciousness now, and this falls away to be succeeded by the next moment. There may be thinking now, but it falls away to be succeeded by the next moment. Don't we think then of this, then of that? Thinking never stays the same. Can we control our thinking? Now we may have attachment, then aversion, then a moment of generosity. Is there generosity all the time? It falls away and very closely afterwards there may be pride, or stinginess. What we call mind are many different elements which arise and then fall away immediately. There is actually birth and death of consciousness, time and again, all through life. Thus, we may understand that what we call in conventional language 'dying' is in fact not different from what takes place each moment of our life. The Buddha and the disciples who had attained perfect enlightenment felt no grief about anything, whatever happened to them. We have not attained enlightenment and thus we feel deep grief when those who are dear to us die, and at times we think with fear of our own death. Does the Buddha have a message for us who are only beginners on his Path? The Buddha has a message for all those who are afflicted by grief and are disturbed by the thought of death. He teaches us to develop clear comprehension of the present moment. The wisdom the Buddha taught to develop is knowledge acquired from direct experience of the physical elements and mental elements of which our life consists. Mental elements are moments of consciousness, feelings and other mental qualities such as anger and attachment. We can have clear knowledge only of what occurs at the present moment, not of what is past already. Is there hardness now? That is only a physical element. Is there no heat or cold now? These are only physical elements. Is there pleasant feeling now? That is only a mental element. Is there dislike of something now? That is only a mental element. We are not used to considering the world in us and around us as elements. Someone may be inclined to say "How can this kind of understanding help me now? It will not return to me my husband or wife, my child or my friend who have died. It will not alleviate my bodily pain, it cannot make me healthy again." When we learn to see realities as elements which do not belong to us and which are beyond control, there will be less ignorance in our life. We will suffer less from the adversities of life. ******* Nina. #108606 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness of 4 elements within one's body nilovg Dear Alex, Op 22-jul-2010, om 23:27 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > What do you think about searching and being intentionally aware of > "heaviness, lightness, hardness, softness, roughness, smootheness, > heat or cold, motion, pressure, supporting, flowing, cohesion" > within one's own body? ------- N: Intentional awareness has to me the flavour of self-seeking. Dhammas appear naturally, and nobody can make them arise. We never know the next moment and that is good. In that way we can learn the anattaness of dhammas. No self interfering or selecting. Nina. #108607 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from NIna. In Time of grief (part 1). nilovg Dear Alex, Op 22-jul-2010, om 20:25 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I do have to consider something that I was reading in your various > excellent writings: > > 1) > > a) From one angle, one must have wise attention (yoniso manasikaro) > b) From another angle, one can't force it. ------ N: True, it cannot be forced. But we know that when kusala citta arises there is wise attention at that moment. It is not ours. A good thing it cannot be forced, otherwise we believe that self is doing everything. ---------- > > A: 2) > > a) From one angle one must study, consider and have theoretical > understanding. > > b) From another angle, mere studying/thinking and theoretical > understanding will not work - only direct experience will. -------- N: We learn that from understanding of the level of listening grows direct understanding of realities. But it all grows very slowly. We need perseverance and patience. It takes patience to study and listen on and on, no matter in which circumstances we are. We may cling to the result of direct experience and this is counterproductive. ------- Nina. #108608 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail farrellkevin80 Hi Nina, Nina: Could you provide the text stating this? This is hard to answer. I would think that we need lots of details, otherwise we may have misunderstandings. Kevin: Absolutely. I will look and see if I can find where I read it. I know I've read it more than once. Thanks again for you all your patient and thought out replies here. All the best, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108609 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness of 4 elements within one's body upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/23/2010 10:41:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Alex, Op 22-jul-2010, om 23:27 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > What do you think about searching and being intentionally aware of > "heaviness, lightness, hardness, softness, roughness, smootheness, > heat or cold, motion, pressure, supporting, flowing, cohesion" > within one's own body? ------- N: Intentional awareness has to me the flavour of self-seeking. Dhammas appear naturally, and nobody can make them arise. --------------------------------------------------- Let me get out of the way the matter of there being no self who acts. That is so. But, speaking as we normally do, it is false that nobody can make dhammas appear. For "wind" to appear, I can intentionally move my hands or feet. For warmth to appear, I can intentionally put my hands above a fire. For hardness to appear I can push my knuckles against the wall. So what do you *mean* exactly when you say that "nobody can make them arise"? Just that there is no literal actor? That's a given, as far as I'm concerned. ------------------------------------------------- We never know the next moment and that is good. ------------------------------------------------ We often DO know the next moment (at least with very high probability). ------------------------------------------------- In that way we can learn the anattaness of dhammas. No self interfering or selecting. --------------------------------------------------- Interfering and selecting is a common occurrence, Nina. Saying otherwise doesn't make it so. --------------------------------------------------- Nina. ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #108610 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail farrellkevin80 Hi all, I just searched and found this: " “Sariputta, Buddha Vipassi’s, Buddha Sikhi’s Buddha Vessabhu’s teaching did not last long. Sariputta, Buddha Kakusandha’s, Buddha Konagamana’s and Buddha Kassapa’s(*) teaching lasted long.” >“And what, Lord, is the cause, what the reason why when Vipassin was Buddha and >when Sikhin was Buddha and when Vessabhu was Buddha the teaching did not last >long ?” >“Sariputta, the Buddha Vipassin and the Buddha Sikhin and the Buddha Vessabhu >were weary of [lit. 'exhausted' from kila-su] preaching dhamma in detail to the >disciples; and these had little of the Suttas in prose or in prose and verse, >the Expositions, the Songs, the Verses of Uplift, the Quotations, the Jatakas, >the Miracles, the Miscellanies; the course of training for the disciples was >not made known, the Patimokkha was not appointed. >After the disappearance of these enlightened ones, these Buddhas, after the >disappearance of the disciples enlightened under these enlightened ones,’ those >last disciples of various names, of various clans of various strata, who had >gone forth from various families, caused this teaching&practice rapidly to >disappear. >It is as if, Sariputta, various flowers, loose on a flat piece of wood, not >tied together by a thread, are scattered about, whirled about and destroyed by >the wind. What is the cause ? Inasmuch as they are not held together by a >thread, even so, Sariputta, at the disappearance of these enlightened ones, >these Buddhas, at the disappearance of the disciptes enlightened under these >enlightened ones, those last disciples of various names, of various clans, of >various social strata, who had gone forth from various families, caused this >Brahma-life rapidly to disappear. Andthese Buddhas were untiring in exhorting >the disciples, for they read their minds with their own: >Formerly, Sariputta, the Buddha Vessabhu, perfected, all enlightened one, in a >certain awe-inspiring jungle-thicket exhorted and admonished a congregation of >a thousand monks, reading their minds with his own, and saying: Apply the mind >thus, you should not apply the mind thus ; pay attention thus,’ you should not >pay attention thus; forsake this; having attained this, abide in it. >Then Sariputta, when these thousand monks had been exhorted and admonished by >Vessabhu, the Buddha, perfected, all enlightened one, their minds were freed >from the cankers without grasping. Moreover, Sariputta, whoever not devoid of >passion, is in a terror of the awe-inspiring jungle-thicket, and enters the >jungle thicket, as a rule his hair stands on end. This, Sariputta, is the >cause, this is the reason why, when Vipassin was Buddha and when Sikhin was >Buddha and when Vessabhu was Buddha, the Brahma-life did not last long.” >” But what, Buddha, is the cause, what the reason why when Kakusandha was >Buddha, and when Konagamana was Buddha and when Kassapa was Buddha the >Brahma-life lasted long?” [8] >” Sariputta, the Buddha Kakusandha and the Buddha Konagamana and the Buddha >Kassapa were diligent in giving dhamma in detail to the disciples, and these >had much of the Suttas in prose or in prose and in verse, the Expositions, the >Songs, the Verses of Uplift, the Quotations, the Jatakas, the Miracles, the >Miscellanies…. >The course of training for disciples was made known, the Patimokkha was >appointed. At the disappearance of these enlightened ones, these Buddhas, at >the disappearance of the disciples who were enlightened under these enlightened >ones, those last disciples of various names, of various clans, of various >social strata, who had gone forth from various families, established the >teaching and practice for a very long time. >It is as if, Sariputta, various flowers, loose on a piece of wood, well tied >together by a thread [lit. 'sutta' - the thread], are not scattered about or >whirled about or destroyed by the wind. What is the reason for this ? They are >well tied together by the thread. >Even so, Sariputta, at the disappearance of these enlightened ones, these >Buddhas, at the disappearance of the disciples who were enlightened under these >enlightened ones, those last disciples of various names, of various clans, of >various strata, who had gone forth from various families, established the >teaching&practice for a very long time. >This, Sariputta, is the cause, this the reason why when Kakusandha was the >Buddha, and when Konagamana was the Buddha and when Kassapa was the Buddha, the >teaching and practice lasted long.” >[Slightly adjusted but based on I.B. Horners translation of the Vinaya text. >Here.] >‘bhagavato ca, sa-riputta, vipassissa bhagavato ca sikhissa bhagavato ca >vessabhussa brahmacariyam. na cirat.t.hitikam. ahosi. bhagavato ca, sa-riputta, >kakusandhassa bhagavato ca kon.a-gamanassa bhagavato ca kassapassa brahmacariyam. >cirat.t.hitikam. ahosi-’’ti. >1.) Wiederholbar >2.) Klar abgesteckt >3.) Schuler und Lehrer koennen Fortschritt mit anderen vergleichen (!!!! so >wichtig) >4.) Es werden die selben sprachlichen Konzepte benutzt um den Fortschritt >vergleichbar zu machen >5.) Das System kann unabhaenging von einem “Guru” oder “Meister” gelehrt werden. >6.) Das System IST der Meister (Buddha verehrte den Dhamma als seinen Lehrer) >7.) Das System kann weitergegeben werden. Ein “Guru” stirbt irgendwann >8.) Ein System baut auf einer nahezu wissenschaftlichen Vorgehen auf…Wie ein >Experiment, dass man versucht erfolgreich zu wiederholen >9.) Ein System motiviert Schuler: Der Weg ist klar strukturiert. Schritt fuer >Schritt Fortschritte. >10.) Lehrer eines solchen Systems koennen aufgrund gleicher/aehnlicher >Anweisungen bei vielen Teilnehmern besser lernen wie sich der Fortschritt >gestaltet….das wird sie zu b e s s e r e n Lehrern machen, je oefter sie das >System lehren…….. >19. ‘‘ko nu kho , bhante, hetu ko paccayo, yena bhagavato ca vipassissa >bhagavato ca sikhissa bhagavato ca vessabhussa brahmacariyam. na cirat.t.hitikam. >ahosi-’’ti? ‘‘bhagava- ca, sa-riputta, vipassi- bhagava- ca sikhi- bhagava- ca >vessabhu- kila-suno ahesum. sa-vaka-nam. vittha-rena dhammam. desetum.. appakañca nesam. >ahosi suttam. geyyam. veyya-karan.am. ga-tha- uda-nam. itivuttakam. ja-takam. >abbhutadhammam. vedallam.. apaññattam. sa-vaka-nam. sikkha-padam.. anuddit.t.ham. >pa-timokkham.. tesam. buddha-nam. bhagavanta-nam. antaradha-nena buddha-nubuddha-nam. >sa-vaka-nam. antaradha-nena ye te pacchima- sa-vaka- na-na-na-ma- na-na-gotta- na-na-jacca- >na-na-kula- pabbajita- te tam. brahmacariyam. khippaññeva antaradha-pesum.. seyyatha-pi, >sa-riputta, na-na-puppha-ni phalake nikkhitta-ni suttena asan.gahita-ni ta-ni va-to >vikirati vidhamati viddham.seti. tam. kissa hetu? yatha- tam. suttena >asan.gahitatta-. evameva kho, sa-riputta, tesam. buddha-nam. bhagavanta-nam. >antaradha-nena buddha-nubuddha-nam. sa-vaka-nam. antaradha-nena ye te pacchima- sa-vaka- >na-na-na-ma- na-na-gotta- na-na-jacca- na-na-kula- pabbajita- te tam. brahmacariyam. >khippaññeva antaradha-pesum.. (etc) found in [Vinaya, I, Veranjakanda] (*) Note: Seems like the Buddhas changed their strategy in teaching the Dhamma. The last four Buddhas established and left a systematic organization of their teachings. ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108611 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness of 4 elements within one's body truth_aerator Dear Nina, all interested, > Dear Alex, > Op 22-jul-2010, om 23:27 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > What do you think about searching and being intentionally aware of > > "heaviness, lightness, hardness, softness, roughness, smootheness, > > heat or cold, motion, pressure, supporting, flowing, cohesion" > > within one's own body? > ------- > N: Intentional awareness has to me the flavour of self-seeking. If one has wrong view, then potentially ANY action done can be with it. If one has right view then potentially any reasonable action doesn't have to include "self-seeking". The Buddha, Arhats and even stream-enterers did intentional actions. Without intention one will not move a finger. But nobody here (I hope) turning into a rock that doesn't think and doesn't move (for those actions require intention. > Dhammas appear naturally, and nobody can make them arise. Yes and no. When one is cold, one puts on more clothing to feel warmer. When one is hungry, one can eat and temporary satisfy the feeling of hunger. If the room is messy, one usually can clean it. In fact it seems to me that at the begining strong desire is a must to "go against the stream" and only when a new habit is formed, one can let go of desire and let it all naturally unfold. IMHO. Thank you for your reply. With metta, Alex #108612 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters from NIna. In Time of grief (part 1). truth_aerator Dear Nina, (all interested) > N: We learn that from understanding of the level of listening grows > direct understanding of realities. But it all grows very slowly. We > need perseverance and patience. It takes patience to study and listen >on and on, no matter in which circumstances we are. We may cling to > the result of direct experience and this is counterproductive. Would it help if one studies as much as possible as often as possible? Kinda like "cramming for final exam next day". With metta, Alex #108613 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:58 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta Sixes, 15. nichiconn Dear Friends, ivaada: dispute, quarrel, contention vivaadamuulaani: kodha /anger, makkha /selfishness, issaa /envy, saa.theyya /fraudulence, paapicchataa /evil wish, sandi.t.thi-paraamaasa/worldliness. Walshe DN 33.2.2(15) 'Six roots of contention (vivaada-muulaani): Here, (a) a monk is angry and bears ill-will, he is disrespectful and discourteous to the Teacher, the Dhamma and the Sangha, and does not finish his training. He stirs up contention within the Sangha, which brings woe and sorrow to many, with evil consequences, misfortune and sorrow for devas and human. If, friends, you should discover such a root of contention among yourselves or among others, you should strive to get rid of just that root of contention ..., then you should work to prevent its overcoming you in future. Or (b) a monk is deceitful and malicious (makkhii hoti pa.laasii) ..., (c) a monk is envious and mean ..., (d) a monk is cunning and deceitful ..., (e) a monk is full of evil desires and wrong views ..., (f) a monk is opinionated (sandi.t.thi-paraamaasii), obstinate and tenacious. [iii 247] If, friends, you should discover such a root of contention among yourselves or among others, you should strive to get rid of just that root of contention. If you find no such root of contention ..., then you should work to prevent its overcoming you in future. Suttanta: 325. Cha vivaadamuulaani. Idhaavuso, bhikkhu kodhano hoti upanaahii. Yo so, aavuso, bhikkhu kodhano hoti upanaahii, so sattharipi agaaravo viharati appatisso, dhammepi agaaravo viharati appatisso, sa'nghepi agaaravo viharati appatisso, sikkhaayapi na paripuurakaarii [paripuuriikaarii (syaa. ka.m.)] hoti. Yo so, aavuso, bhikkhu satthari agaaravo viharati appatisso, dhamme agaaravo viharati appatisso, sa'nghe agaaravo viharati appatisso, sikkhaaya na paripuurakaarii, so sa'nghe vivaada.m janeti. Yo hoti vivaado bahujanaahitaaya bahujanaasukhaaya anatthaaya ahitaaya dukkhaaya devamanussaana.m. Evaruupa.m ce tumhe, aavuso, vivaadamuula.m ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa samanupasseyyaatha. Tatra tumhe, aavuso, tasseva paapakassa vivaadamuulassa pahaanaaya vaayameyyaatha. Evaruupa.m ce tumhe, aavuso, vivaadamuula.m ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa na samanupasseyyaatha. Tatra tumhe, aavuso, tasseva paapakassa vivaadamuulassa aayati.m anavassavaaya pa.tipajjeyyaatha. Evametassa paapakassa vivaadamuulassa pahaana.m hoti. Evametassa paapakassa vivaadamuulassa aayati.m anavassavo hoti. <>nti dhamma.m vissajjetvaa bahutaraava adhamma.m ga.nhanti. Te adhamma.m purakkhatvaa vadantaa apaayesu nibbattanti. Eva.m dvinna.m bhikkhuuna.m vivaado devamanussaana.m ahitaaya dukkhaaya hoti. Ajjhatta.m vaati tumhaaka.m abbhantaraparisaaya. Bahiddhaa vaati paresa.m parisaaya. Makkhiiti paresa.m gu.namakkhanalakkha.nena makkhena samannaagato. Pa.laasiiti yugaggaahalakkha.nena pa.laasena samannaagato. Issukiiti parasakkaaraadiini issaayanalakkha.naaya issaaya samannaagato. Macchariiti aavaasamacchariyaadiihi samannaagato. Sa.thoti keraa.tiko. Maayaaviiti katapaapapa.ticchaadako. Paapicchoti asantasambhaavanicchako dussiilo. Micchaadi.t.thiiti natthikavaadii ahetukavaadii akiriyavaadii. Sandi.t.thiparaamaasiiti saya.m di.t.thimeva paraamasati. aadhaanaggaahiiti da.lhaggaahii. Duppa.tinissaggiiti na sakkaa hoti gahita.m vissajjaapetu.m. .Tiikaa 325.Kodhanoti kujjhanasiilo. Yasmaa so appahiinakodhataaya vigatakodhano naama na hoti, tasmaa <>ti aaha. Upanaaho etassa atthi, upanayhanasiiloti vaa upanaahii. Vivaado naama uppajjamaano yebhuyyena pa.thama.m dvinna.m vasena uppajjatiiti vutta.m <>ti. So pana yathaa bahuuna.m anatthaavaho hoti, ta.m nidassanamukhena dassento <>ntiaadimaaha. Abbhantaraparisaayaati parisabbhantare. Paragu.namakkhanaaya pavattopi attano kaaraka.m guuthena paharanta.m guutho viya pa.thamatara.m makkhetiiti makkho, so etassa atthiiti makkhii. Palaasatiiti palaaso, parassa gu.ne .da.msitvaa viya apanetiiti attho, so etassa atthiiti palaasii. Palaasii puggalo hi dutiyassa dhura.m na deti, sama.m pasaaretvaa ti.t.thati. Tenaaha <>ti. <>tiaadiina.m padaanamattho he.t.thaa vuttanayattaa suvi~n~neyyova. Kammapathappattaaya micchaadi.t.thiyaa vasenettha micchaadi.t.thi veditabbaati aaha <>ti. ========= 325 continues. connie. #108614 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from NIna. In Time of grief (part 1). nilovg Dear Alex, Op 23-jul-2010, om 18:41 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Would it help if one studies as much as possible as often as > possible? Kinda like "cramming for final exam next day". ------- N: Good remark. I had to laugh. It sounds a bit cramped. Think of the natural development. I would say, as conditions permit. Also studying is dependent on conditions. Better to ponder about one sentence than trying to read a lot of text. It has to sink in, little by little. Nina. #108615 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:13 pm Subject: pondering over what one's read over and over 100k times truth_aerator Dear Nina, >N: Better to ponder about one sentence than trying to read a lot of >text. It has to sink in, little by little. What do you think about VsM like recitation of important passages? You know how in VsM it says to recite 32 bodyparts over and over "a hundred times, a thousand times, a hundred thousand times". "The recitation should be done verbally in this way a hundred times, a thousand times, even a hundred thousand times. For it is through verbal recitation that the meditation subject becomes familiar, and the mind being thus prevented from running here and there, the parts become evident and seem like [the fingers of] a pair of clasped hands, like a row of fence posts." VsM VIII,56 With metta, Alex #108616 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness of 4 elements within one's body kenhowardau Hi Howard (Nina and Alex), ------- A: > > > > What do you think about searching and being intentionally aware of > "heaviness, lightness, hardness, softness, roughness, smootheness, > heat or cold, motion, pressure, supporting, flowing, cohesion" > within one's own body? N: > > Intentional awareness has to me the flavour of self-seeking. Dhammas appear naturally, and nobody can make them arise. H: > Let me get out of the way the matter of there being no self who acts. That is so. But, ----------------- I think you are missing the point, Howard. Nina and others like her do not want to get anatta out of the way. Anatta is the central subject of their (our) Dhamma study. But us no buts! :-) --------------- H: > speaking as we normally do, it is false that nobody can make dhammas appear. ---------------- When we are speaking normally there is no mention of dhammas. To mix the two is a recipe for wrong view. In Dhamma study we have to remember that we are not speaking normally. --------------------------------- H: > For "wind" to appear, I can intentionally move my hands or feet. For warmth to appear, I can intentionally put my hands above a fire. For hardness to appear I can push my knuckles against the wall. --------------------------------- That is speaking normally, and there is no mention of dhammas there. The concept of warmth from a fire is simply that - a concept. On the other hand, the tactile rupa known as warmth (or temperature) is a dhamma, and it arises in every kalapa of rupas. It is not dependent in any way on someone's putting hands over a fire. ------------------------------------------- H: > So what do you *mean* exactly when you say that "nobody can make them arise"? Just that there is no literal actor? That's a given, as far as I'm concerned. -------------------------------------------- I think we mean there is no actor of any kind. Sense rupas are arising all the time: if one of them becomes the object of consciousness that is purely the result of past kamma.(And no one except a Buddha could say which kamma it was - or even if it was recent or long ago.) ------------------- N: > > We never know the next moment and that is good. H: > We often DO know the next moment (at least with very high probability). ------------------- That is true *only* if you are speaking normally. ------------------ N: > > In that way we can learn the anattaness of dhammas. No self interfering or selecting. H: > Interfering and selecting is a common occurrence, Nina. Saying otherwise doesn't make it so. ------------------- Interfering or selecting is something that *never* occurs in ultimate reality. Dhammas roll on *regardless*. Ken H #108617 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness of 4 elements within one's body upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/23/2010 7:39:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard (Nina and Alex), ------- A: > > > > What do you think about searching and being intentionally aware of > "heaviness, lightness, hardness, softness, roughness, smootheness, > heat or cold, motion, pressure, supporting, flowing, cohesion" > within one's own body? N: > > Intentional awareness has to me the flavour of self-seeking. Dhammas appear naturally, and nobody can make them arise. H: > Let me get out of the way the matter of there being no self who acts. That is so. But, ----------------- I think you are missing the point, Howard. Nina and others like her do not want to get anatta out of the way. Anatta is the central subject of their (our) Dhamma study. But us no buts! :-) --------------------------------------------------- No, I'm not missing the point. I have no dispute in the slightest with "no self." And I'm not just saying "not self" - and certainly not saying "not-self strategy"! I agree with "no self," I agree that it is the central realization. It simply isn't what I am addressing. ------------------------------------------------- --------------- H: > speaking as we normally do, it is false that nobody can make dhammas appear. ---------------- When we are speaking normally there is no mention of dhammas. To mix the two is a recipe for wrong view. In Dhamma study we have to remember that we are not speaking normally. ----------------------------------------------------- I'm not mixing anything. I'm claiming that all the time, dhammas are created at will! ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- H: > For "wind" to appear, I can intentionally move my hands or feet. For warmth to appear, I can intentionally put my hands above a fire. For hardness to appear I can push my knuckles against the wall. --------------------------------- That is speaking normally, and there is no mention of dhammas there. ---------------------------------------------- There is no need to mention dhammas. What I am speaking of reduces to talk about dhammas, but it is FAR too complex to not use the abbreviations of normal speech. In fact, it is necessary. The Buddha did so. Are we better than him?! ------------------------------------------------ The concept of warmth from a fire is simply that - a concept. ------------------------------------------------ Do you not understand the meaning? ---------------------------------------------- On the other hand, the tactile rupa known as warmth (or temperature) is a dhamma, and it arises in every kalapa of rupas. It is not dependent in any way on someone's putting hands over a fire. ----------------------------------------------- Putting one's hands over a fire DOES cause warmth to appear. This is an instance of willful production of a rupa. Any volitional motion we make also is. ---------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- H: > So what do you *mean* exactly when you say that "nobody can make them arise"? Just that there is no literal actor? That's a given, as far as I'm concerned. -------------------------------------------- I think we mean there is no actor of any kind. --------------------------------------- Yes. But thinking and willing can and do lead to the appearing of rupas. ---------------------------------------- Sense rupas are arising all the time: if one of them becomes the object of consciousness that is purely the result of past kamma. ------------------------------------------- Kamma is intention, and the effect can be and often is immediate. "Past" can be a millisecond ago. --------------------------------------------- (And no one except a Buddha could say which kamma it was - or even if it was recent or long ago.) -------------------------------------------- Sometimes you and I can also. ------------------------------------------ ------------------- N: > > We never know the next moment and that is good. H: > We often DO know the next moment (at least with very high probability). ------------------- That is true *only* if you are speaking normally. -------------------------------------------- Yeah, Ken, normally, in a manner that one knows what one is saying rather than just using words. --------------------------------------------- ------------------ N: > > In that way we can learn the anattaness of dhammas. No self interfering or selecting. H: > Interfering and selecting is a common occurrence, Nina. Saying otherwise doesn't make it so. ------------------- Interfering or selecting is something that *never* occurs in ultimate reality. ----------------------------------------------- Choices and willing occur all the time. They occur, of course, due to conditions. Nothing comes from nothing. ---------------------------------------------- Dhammas roll on *regardless*. ---------------------------------------------- Regardless of WHAT? You wish to outlaw some of the dhammas! ---------------------------------------- Ken H ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #108618 From: Kevin F Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail farrellkevin80 Hi all, I just searched and found this. What do you think? “Sariputta, Buddha Vipassi’s, Buddha Sikhi’s Buddha Vessabhu’s teaching did not last long. Sariputta, Buddha Kakusandha’s, Buddha Konagamana’s and Buddha Kassapa’s(*) teaching lasted long.” “And what, Lord, is the cause, what the reason why when Vipassin was Buddha and when Sikhin was Buddha and when Vessabhu was Buddha the teaching did not last long ?” “Sariputta, the Buddha Vipassin and the Buddha Sikhin and the Buddha Vessabhu were weary of [lit. 'exhausted' from kila-su] preaching dhamma in detail to the disciples; and these had little of the Suttas in prose or in prose and verse, the Expositions, the Songs, the Verses of Uplift, the Quotations, the Jatakas, the Miracles, the Miscellanies; the course of training for the disciples was not made known, the Patimokkha was not appointed. After the disappearance of these enlightened ones, these Buddhas, after the disappearance of the disciples enlightened under these enlightened ones,’ those last disciples of various names, of various clans of various strata, who had gone forth from various families, caused this teaching&practice rapidly to disappear. It is as if, Sariputta, various flowers, loose on a flat piece of wood, not tied together by a thread, are scattered about, whirled about and destroyed by the wind. What is the cause ? Inasmuch as they are not held together by a thread, even so, Sariputta, at the disappearance of these enlightened ones, these Buddhas, at the disappearance of the disciptes enlightened under these enlightened ones, those last disciples of various names, of various clans, of various social strata, who had gone forth from various families, caused this Brahma-life rapidly to disappear. Andthese Buddhas were untiring in exhorting the disciples, for they read their minds with their own: Formerly, Sariputta, the Buddha Vessabhu, perfected, all enlightened one, in a certain awe-inspiring jungle-thicket exhorted and admonished a congregation of a thousand monks, reading their minds with his own, and saying: Apply the mind thus, you should not apply the mind thus ; pay attention thus,’ you should not pay attention thus; forsake this; having attained this, abide in it. Then Sariputta, when these thousand monks had been exhorted and admonished by Vessabhu, the Buddha, perfected, all enlightened one, their minds were freed from the cankers without grasping. Moreover, Sariputta, whoever not devoid of passion, is in a terror of the awe-inspiring jungle-thicket, and enters the jungle thicket, as a rule his hair stands on end. This, Sariputta, is the cause, this is the reason why, when Vipassin was Buddha and when Sikhin was Buddha and when Vessabhu was Buddha, the Brahma-life did not last long.” ” But what, Buddha, is the cause, what the reason why when Kakusandha was Buddha, and when Konagamana was Buddha and when Kassapa was Buddha the Brahma-life lasted long?” [8] ” Sariputta, the Buddha Kakusandha and the Buddha Konagamana and the Buddha Kassapa were diligent in giving dhamma in detail to the disciples, and these had much of the Suttas in prose or in prose and in verse, the Expositions, the Songs, the Verses of Uplift, the Quotations, the Jatakas, the Miracles, the Miscellanies…. The course of training for disciples was made known, the Patimokkha was appointed. At the disappearance of these enlightened ones, these Buddhas, at the disappearance of the disciples who were enlightened under these enlightened ones, those last disciples of various names, of various clans, of various social strata, who had gone forth from various families, established the teaching and practice for a very long time. It is as if, Sariputta, various flowers, loose on a piece of wood, well tied together by a thread [lit. 'sutta' - the thread], are not scattered about or whirled about or destroyed by the wind. What is the reason for this ? They are well tied together by the thread. Even so, Sariputta, at the disappearance of these enlightened ones, these Buddhas, at the disappearance of the disciples who were enlightened under these enlightened ones, those last disciples of various names, of various clans, of various strata, who had gone forth from various families, established the teaching&practice for a very long time. This, Sariputta, is the cause, this the reason why when Kakusandha was the Buddha, and when Konagamana was the Buddha and when Kassapa was the Buddha, the teaching and practice lasted long.” [Slightly adjusted but based on I.B. Horners translation of the Vinaya text. Here.] ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108619 From: han tun Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:49 am Subject: Re: Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail hantun1 Dear Kevin and Nina, I thank Kevin very much for presenting the extract from the Vinaya Text. As I see it, there are two isuues under discussion. (1) Past Buddhas, like Buddha Vipassii, did not give long discourses. (2) The Teachings of Buddha Vipassii, Buddha Sikhii, and Buddha Vessabhuu did not last long after their parinibbana, and the Teachings of Buddha Kakusandhu, Buddha Konaagamana, and Buddha Kassapa lasted long. The second point is taken care of by the extract presented by Kevin. As regards the first point, one Burmese Sayadaw said that during those past Buddhas like Buddha Vipassii, the life-span of people are very long. [During Buddha Vipassii, eighty thousand years. See para 1.7, DN 14 Mahaapadaana Sutta, translated by Maurice Walshe]. The people live long because their siila was very good. So the Buddhas did not need to deliver long discourses explaining everything. They just deliver short discourses that would last for the people for a long time. In para 3.28 of DN 14, "And then the Lord Buddha Vipassii gave to the assembled monks the following precepts: "Patient forbearance is the highest sacrifice, Supreme is Nibbaana, so say the Buddhas. He's not 'one gone forth' who hurts others, No ascetic he who harms another. Not to do any evil, but cultivate the good, To purify one's mind, this the Buddhas teach. Not insulting, not harming, restraint according to rule, Moderation in food, seclusion of dwelling, Devotion to high thinking, this the Buddhas teach." [these verses are the same as Dhammapada verses 184, 183, 185 respectively.] I think that short verses would be enough to last for a long time for those people at that time. Kind regards, Han #108620 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:51 am Subject: Re: 18 schools kenhowardau Hi Alex and Howard, Thanks for the additional historical information. Very interesting! I shall commit it to memory. :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello KenH, > > > When you say 'the original 18 schools' are you saying there were >literally 18 schools to begin with (which seems unlikely)? Or are you >referring to the first eighteen schools (after seventeen schisms)? > > Unfortunately it seems that there were 18-20 early schools by the 3rd council. Only Theravada (one of ~18) schools has survived because it moved to Sri Lanka before Buddhism was practically destroyed in India. > Some other branches survived because they moved out of India and only few fragments from few schools have survived. > #108621 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:42 am Subject: Re: What is the ALL actually? ptaus1 Dear Azita, > A: I often wonder why many people deny the existence of a dhamma, be it only for a very short moment in time. I understand that to actually experience, with developed understanding, the falling away of a dhamma really shows anicca clearly. I cant remember what the Pali words are for this, but it is one of the vipassana nanas, no? and unless these stages are experienced by panna, its all jst conceptual, eg we may know it intellectually but not on that deep level which really knows. > > these dhammas have to arise to fall away, they are conditioned that way, and while they have arisen they are very real - for an instant!! > Can be known, need to be known to undrstand what conditioned dhammas really mean. pt: Yes, I think you've said it very well, thanks. Best wishes pt #108622 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:05 am Subject: Re: A Sotapanna ptaus1 Hi KenO, > KO: Understanding the difference in concepts and dhamma is not impt. > Understanding dhamma is the importance, Could you please explain a bit more in this regard. I don't quite understand how can one really understand a dhamma without knowing the difference (experientially) between thinking about dhammas (so just operating with concepts) and actually experiencing/understanding a dhamma directly? I guess that if only concepts are involved, that wouldn't be insight yet - so no real understanding of dhammas. Thanks. Best wishes pt #108623 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:00 am Subject: Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro scale ptaus1 Hi Alex, > A: the thing is that sabhava business seems to be like making little wholes out of dhammas that exist like an Atta and get annihilated. The point in disasembling the whole into parts is to show the sankhata (and anicca & anatta) nature of that whole. However some make little wholes out of dhammas and as such only move the atta belief on a more micro scale. pt: I think that if someone was "making little wholes out of dhammas that exist like an Atta and get annihilated", then that be a wrong interpretation of what the commentaries are saying. > A:How isn't annihilation of self-existent dhamma a wrong (annihilationist) view ? The difference is only in the size of the thing. Generally Atta is big and exists for long period of time (if one is ucchedavadin) and dhammas are tiny particles that exist momentary. The difference is only in the size and length of time! pt: I think that if someone was thinking along those lines, that too would be a wrong way to understand the commentaries. > A: Furthermore the whole ontology thing may not be what the Buddha intended to teach. His emphasis was Dukkha and its cessation. Dukkha is experiential and thus its solution has to lie within the EXPERIENTIAL. pt: I think I agree, in that it's easy to get lost in the terminology, regardless whether it's the one employed in the suttas, abhi, comm, etc. Regardless, I think they all point to practical experience in their own way. In particular, when the commentaries employ "sabhava" in reference to the the 3 sub-moments, I take it that means that dukkha is directly experienced as a characteristic associated with that arising, aging and falling away. > A: In short, sabhava (as it seems to be interpreted) is just an annihilationist Atta view applied to micro scale and to moments. pt: As mentioned, I think this would be a wrong interpretation of what the commentaries are saying when employing the term sabhava. Best wishes pt #108624 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Only Nibbana is Paramattha sacca (Ultimate Truth) ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. > S: This relates to the discussion you were having with Ken H about whether dhamma and the dhamma lakkhana are the same. The object of this first mind-door process is classified as dhamma, although strictly speaking the dhamma (e.g. calm) has completely fallen away. It is the lakkhana or the sabhava of that dhamma which is experienced by way of navattabba. If the object is a nama, as in this example, in fact the arammana can never be a nama arising in the same process, therefore the arammana (the object, such as calm) must have arisen in a process preceding it. In brief, the chracteristic experienced is still considered paramattha even if it is no longer there. > ... > Of course, in the case of those who experienced nibbana with jhana cittas as basis, subsequently there can be numerous experiences of the characteristic of nibbana (all by way of navattabba). So, it would be a matter of word-usage as to whether we say nibbana or the characteristic of nibbana or the sabhava of nibbana is experienced at such a time. I believe the texts use all of these*. pt: This is very interesting. I'm not sure I understand all of it yet, so I'll come back with more questions when I wrap my mind around it a bit better. Thanks. Best wishes pt #108625 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:40 am Subject: Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro scale szmicio Hi pt, Alex > > A: the thing is that sabhava business seems to be like making little wholes out of dhammas that exist like an Atta and get annihilated. The point in disasembling the whole into parts is to show the sankhata (and anicca & anatta) nature of that whole. However some make little wholes out of dhammas and as such only move the atta belief on a more micro scale. > > pt: I think that if someone was "making little wholes out of dhammas that exist like an Atta and get annihilated", then that be a wrong interpretation of what the commentaries are saying. L: I agree, recently I was studying Atthasalini and there was said on different functions of pitakas. Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma has different purpose. But none of the pitakas has anihilation purpose. In atthasalini there is explanation of dhamma, and dhamma means empty of being or essence. This is for sure not anithilation view. > > A:How isn't annihilation of self-existent dhamma a wrong (annihilationist) view ? The difference is only in the size of the thing. Generally Atta is big and exists for long period of time (if one is ucchedavadin) and dhammas are tiny particles that exist momentary. The difference is only in the size and length of time! > > pt: I think that if someone was thinking along those lines, that too would be a wrong way to understand the commentaries. L: For sure, Now I am going through few commentaries, and listening to Khun Sujin discourses and I am amazed how each of her word is according to commentaries. I also think that she get commentaries so well. > > A: Furthermore the whole ontology thing may not be what the Buddha intended to teach. His emphasis was Dukkha and its cessation. Dukkha is experiential and thus its solution has to lie within the EXPERIENTIAL. L: Alex, you depend upon Sutta now. But you know there is a lot of explanation of the meaning in the commentaries? If you say there is dukkha and its cessation, do you really grasp the meaning? Because commentaries goes with it and they explain it all in very detailed way, and the purpose of this explanation is to get more right understanding. Best wishes Lukas #108626 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:49 am Subject: Re: 18 schools szmicio Hi all, There was this commentary on controversy something like that, I dont know the pali name, there was said about the history of theravada, I think this shall be do most important source.Do you know the pali name of this book? Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Alex and Howard, > > Thanks for the additional historical information. Very interesting! I shall commit it to memory. :-) > > Ken H > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Hello KenH, > > > > > When you say 'the original 18 schools' are you saying there were >literally 18 schools to begin with (which seems unlikely)? Or are you >referring to the first eighteen schools (after seventeen schisms)? > > > > Unfortunately it seems that there were 18-20 early schools by the 3rd council. Only Theravada (one of ~18) schools has survived because it moved to Sri Lanka before Buddhism was practically destroyed in India. > > Some other branches survived because they moved out of India and only few fragments from few schools have survived. #108627 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the ALL actually? ptaus1 Hi KenO, Thanks for your reply. > KO: There must be a presence, if there is no presence, there is no > experiencing of dhamma. pt: Agreed. > KO: We cannot understand dhamma during arising sub moments > because it is too weak, or its ceasing because it is already degrading. pt: That's an interesting detail. When you find time, please let me know if you have a textual reference for this. Thanks. Best wishes pt #108628 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail nilovg Dear Kevin and Han. Thank you for your observations. Op 24-jul-2010, om 3:27 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > when Sikhin was Buddha and when Vessabhu was Buddha the teaching > did not last > long ?” > “Sariputta, the Buddha Vipassin and the Buddha Sikhin and the > Buddha Vessabhu > were weary of [lit. 'exhausted' from kila-su] preaching dhamma in > detail to the > disciples; and these had little of the Suttas in prose or in prose > and verse, > the Expositions, the Songs, the Verses of Uplift, the Quotations, > the Jatakas, > the Miracles, the Miscellanies; the course of training for the > disciples was > not made known, the Patimokkha was not appointed. -------- N: I consulted the Buddhava.msa, Chronicle of the Buddhas, and its commentary, Madhuratthavilaasini, tr. by Horner as the Clarifier of the Sweet Meaning. I looked up the Buddha Vipassin, who recited Paatimokkha, and then the verse of the ovaada paatimokkha, the exhortation to the paatimokkha, is given, like Han quoted. I do not read here about the aana paatimokkha (the precepts). As to the Buddha Vessabhu (p. 356), he was srrounded by thousands of arahats, the 'Lord Vessabhu recited Paatimokkha'. Then under the Exposition of the Differences between the Buddhas, there are differences in lifespan, family, Bo-tree, etc. Then for all Buddha similarities are mentioned. Great Brahmaa's request for teaching dhamma, the turning of the Wheel of Dhamma, recital of the Paatimokkha, teaching of the Abhidhamma in the abode of the thirtythree, descent to Sa.nkassa (after that).... ------ Kevin, where in the Vinaya can I find your quoted texts, so that I can compare? I have all volumes here in hardcover, translated by Horner. Nina. #108629 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Lukas' questions to Ajahn Sujin, part 5. nilovg Dear Lukas, Lukas Q: -------- Kh S: Does one know the reality of citta? Just begin. N: We do not know our own citta. Lukas Q.: Q.: . I realised in my life what citta is. There were moments of understanding of citta. It has a characteristic of experience. It experience its object. It is not just word, that's a reality. Those moments of experience characteristic of citta was so natural. It was when I met your teachings for the first time. But now I don't experience it anymore. And I start to think that maybe all those is gone and i won't experience it anymore. I know that is lobha on account of past experience. But I feel bad with it. Akusala arise more often then kusala. And I think that's wrong. I still take it for myself." -------- Kh S: Knowing that this is wrong is good. He thinks in that way because it is still ?he?. N: He has to accept that. Kh S: most people think of wanting not to have akusala, because there is ignorance, avijjaa. -------- L: "In one moment there can be kusala and then there can be akusala. then regrets on account of akusala may arise. But it's so hard to deal with regrets." ------------- Kh S : It is still ?he? who would like to have kusala. He knows that there is attachment and this is real. This can be the object of understanding. ------------ L: There can be also a lot of moments of akusala on account of reading of Dhamma. Should we stop reading Dhamma then? -------- Kh S: And then what? Go on with ignorance, not knowing that reading and understanding lead to more understanding? --------------- Nina. #108630 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Letters from Nina. In Time of grief (part 3) nilovg Dear friends, We still have sorrow, but we should know sorrow as it is. Sorrow or grief is a kind of aversion, it is dislike of something we experience. It is natural that we feel grief. It is bound to arise when there are conditions for it. We had aversion in the past and this conditions the arising of aversion today. Ignorance of realities conditions everything which is unwholesome and thus also aversion. Aversion is also conditioned by attachment. We are attached to the pleasant feeling we have when we are in the company of someone who is dear to us. When that person isn't there any more we have grief. Thus, it is actually a selfish clinging to our own pleasant feeling which conditions grief. This may sound crude, but if we are sincere to ourselves we can see that it is true. When we know more about the conditions for grief, we can understand that grief is only a mental element. Grief does not last, it falls away as soon as it has arisen. It may arise again, but then it is a different moment of grief. When we learn to see grief as a conditioned phenomenon, we will think less in terms of 'my grief', and thus we will be less overpowered by it. Our life consists not only of grief, there are many other realities which arise. When there is, for example, seeing or hearing, there cannot be grief at the same time. When we learn to know the present moment, we will worry less about the past. What has happened, has happened already, how can we change it now? What can be done now is the development of right understanding of the present moment. We read in one of the 'Jatakas', the Birthstories of the Bodhisatta, in the 'Birthstory about Desire' (Kama Jataka, no. 467 ) about grief, conditioned by clinging. In the commentary to this story we read that a brahmin cultivated corn with the greatest care. He had the intention to give alms to the Buddha and his disciples when it was ripe. However, the night before he was to reap it, a great flood of rain carried away the whole crop. The brahmin pressed his hand to his heart, because he was overcome with grief, went home weeping and lay down lamenting. The Buddha came in order to console him and said: 'Why, will what is lost come back when you grieve?' The Brahmin answered: 'No, Gotama, that will not.' The Buddha then said: If that is so, why grieve? The wealth of beings in this world, or their corn, when they have it, they have it, and when it is gone, why, it is gone. There is no composite thing that is not subject to destruction; do not brood over it.' After the Buddha's discourse the brahmin could see realities as they are and attained enlightenment. The Buddha said that he had also in a former life, when he was still a Bodhisatta, cured this brahmin of grief. The brahmin was then a king who was very greedy for power. He wanted to possess many kingdoms. When he did not obtain three cities which were promised to him, he became sick of grief. The Bodhisatta explained to him that those who are greedy want to have more and more and are never satisfied. He cured the brahmin of his sickness by words of wisdom. He said: 'What, O King! Can you capture those cities by grieving?' When the king answered that he could not, the Bodhisatta said: 'Since that is so, why grieve, O great King? Every thing, animate or inanimate, must pass away, and leave all behind, even its own body...' We read that the Bodhisatta also said: 'For each desire that is let go a happiness is won: He that all happiness would have, must with all lust have done.' With metta, Nina #108631 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:44 am Subject: Re: Only Nibbana is Paramattha sacca (Ultimate Truth) szmicio Dear Sarah, pt > > S: This relates to the discussion you were having with Ken H about whether dhamma and the dhamma lakkhana are the same. The object of this first mind-door process is classified as dhamma, although strictly speaking the dhamma (e.g. calm) has completely fallen away. It is the lakkhana or the sabhava of that dhamma which is experienced by way of navattabba. If the object is a nama, as in this example, in fact the arammana can never be a nama arising in the same process, therefore the arammana (the object, such as calm) must have arisen in a process preceding it. In brief, the chracteristic experienced is still considered paramattha even if it is no longer there. L: By way of navattaba , this means when the object of citta is a concept? Best wishes Lukas #108632 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 7/24/2010 7:41:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: L: I agree, recently I was studying Atthasalini and there was said on different functions of pitakas. Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma has different purpose. But none of the pitakas has anihilation purpose. In atthasalini there is explanation of dhamma, and dhamma means empty of being or essence. This is for sure not anithilation view. ==================================== The term 'dhamma' literally implies "holding its own being or essence" rather than "empty of being or essence." Despite that formal meaning, in the suttas, 'dhamma' is used informally as we would use "thing" in ordinary English, and it even applies to conglomerates, but in the Abhidhamma and the Theravadin commentaries, I have been led to understand, and especially as Khun Sujin and Nina use the term, dhammas are considered "realities" with own-being and own-nature. If the Atthasalini explains dhammas as being empty of being or essence, that comes as a happy surprise to me, and I would love to see exactly what is said there in this regard. I think this is a matter of some importance. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #108633 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only Nibbana is Paramattha sacca (Ultimate Truth) nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 24-jul-2010, om 13:44 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > L: By way of navattaba , this means when the object of citta is a > concept? ------ N: No, it is not a concept. The term is: navatabba.m aaranamman: an object that should not be spoken of, or not so classifiable. It has just fallen away but it appears as object of awareness. The term photo copy was also used to explain it. ----- Nina. #108634 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:25 pm Subject: Abhidhamma Series, no 23. Latent Tendencies. nilovg Dear friends, Latent Tendencies. Defilements, akusala cetasikas, are of different levels, they may be subtle or more coarse. Defilements that are transgressions (v?tikkama kilesa), are coarse defilements of the degree of unwholesome courses of action through body or speech. Defilements one is possessed by and that arise with akusala citta (pariyu.t.thaana kilesa) are medium defilements that disturb the citta. Latent tendencies (anusaya kilesa) are subtle defilements that lie dormant in the citta and do not arise but condition the arising of akusala citta. The latent tendencies are enumerated in the Tipi.taka and the Commentaries, where it is stated that the Buddha, the Fully Enlightened One, understood these by his perfect knowledge of beings? biases and underlying tendencies (aasayaanusaya ~naa.na). Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded by the next citta, unwholesome and wholesome behaviour and inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and from life to life. The latent tendencies which are unwholesome inclinations that are accumulated are the following: sense-desire (kaama-raaga), aversion (pa.tigha), conceit (maana), wrong view (di.t.thi), doubt (vicikicchaa), desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaraaga), and ignorance (avijjaa). It is essential to have more understanding of the latent tendencies and their power. They are called subtle defilements because they do not arise with the akusala citta, but they are powerful. Since they have not been eradicated they can strongly condition and influence our behaviour. They lie dormant in the citta like microbes infesting the body. So long as they have not been eradicated we are like sick people, because they can condition the arising of akusala citta when there are the appropriate conditions.They can condition the arising of akusala citta even to the degree of transgression of siila at any time, and thus, more defilements are accumulated again and added to the latent tendencies. The teaching of the latent tendencies helps us to see why the defilements in our life are so tenacious, arising again and again, and why their arising is unforeseeable and uncontrollable. When we study the enumeration of the latent tendencies, we should remember that these latent tendencies are not abstract notions. The latent tendency of sense-desire or sensuous clinging conditions akusala citta with attachment to any kind of pleasant object. We may have expectations as to kind words or praise from other people. This is selfish desire that has been deeply accumulated and is very powerful. The latent tendency of aversion conditions akusala citta with aversion, but we should know that this has many shades. It is not only a matter of hate or anger, but it also arises when we are upset or depressed because we do not receive the pleasant object we were hoping for. The latent tendency of conceit conditions the arising of akusala citta with clinging to the importance of self. It can arise on account of any object experienced through the six doorways, and it often motivates our speech and actions. All latent tendencies condition the arising of akusala citta, but because of accumulated ignorance we do not notice their arising, we are deluded time and again. The latent tendencies are subsequently eradicated by the lokuttara magga-citta of each of the four stages of enlightenment. Wrong view and doubt are eradicated at the first stage, the stage of the sotaapanna. At the second stage sense-desire and aversion are not yet eradicated but they are diminished. They are completely eradicated at the third stage, the stage of the anaagaami. Conceit, desire for becoming and ignorance are eradicated at the stage of the arahat. Thus we see that the eradication of the latent tendencies takes a long time. It can only be achieved by the development of understanding of all dhammas appearing in daily life. ------------- Nina. #108635 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta Sixes, sutta 15 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, The Sixes, Sutta 15. Walshe DN 33.2.2(15) 'Six roots of contention (vivaada-muulaani): Here, (a) a monk is angry and bears ill-will, he is disrespectful and discourteous to the Teacher, the Dhamma and the Sangha, and does not finish his training. He stirs up contention within the Sangha, which brings woe and sorrow to many, with evil consequences, misfortune and sorrow for devas and human. If, friends, you should discover such a root of contention among yourselves or among others, you should strive to get rid of just that root of contention ..., then you should work to prevent its overcoming you in future. Or (b) a monk is deceitful and malicious (makkhii hoti pa.laasii) ..., (c) a monk is envious and mean ..., (d) a monk is cunning and deceitful ..., (e) a monk is full of evil desires and wrong views ..., (f) a monk is opinionated (sandi.t.thi-paraamaasii), obstinate and tenacious. [iii 247] If, friends, you should discover such a root of contention among yourselves or among others, you should strive to get rid of just that root of contention. If you find no such root of contention ..., then you should work to prevent its overcoming you in future. Suttanta: 325. Cha vivaadamuulaani. Idhaavuso, bhikkhu kodhano hoti upanaahii. Yo so, aavuso, bhikkhu kodhano hoti upanaahii, ....Puna capara.m, aavuso, bhikkhu makkhii hoti pa.laasii...pe... issukii hoti maccharii...pe... sa.tho hoti maayaavii... paapiccho hoti micchaadi.t.thii...sandi.t.thiparaamaasii hoti aadhaanaggaahii duppa.tinissaggii...pe... yo so, aavuso, bhikkhu sandi.t.thiparaamaasii hoti aadhaanaggaahii duppa.tinissaggii, so sattharipi agaaravo viharati appatisso, dhammepi agaaravo viharati appatisso, sa'nghepi agaaravo viharati appatisso, sikkhaayapi na paripuurakaarii hoti. Yo so, aavuso, bhikkhu satthari agaaravo viharati appatisso, dhamme agaaravo viharati appatisso, sa'nghe agaaravo viharati appatisso , sikkhaaya na paripuurakaarii, so sa'nghe vivaada.m janeti. Yo hoti vivaado bahujanaahitaaya bahujanaasukhaaya anatthaaya ahitaaya dukkhaaya devamanussaana.m. Evaruupa.m ce tumhe, aavuso, vivaadamuula.m ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa samanupasseyyaatha. Tatra tumhe, aavuso, tasseva paapakassa vivaadamuulassa pahaanaaya vaayameyyaatha. Evaruupa.m ce tumhe, aavuso, vivaadamuula.m ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa na samanupasseyyaatha. Tatra tumhe, aavuso, tasseva paapakassa vivaadamuulassa aayati.m anavassavaaya pa.tipajjeyyaatha. Evametassa paapakassa vivaadamuulassa pahaana.m hoti. Evametassa paapakassa vivaadamuulassa aayati.m anavassavo hoti. --------------- N: The Co. speaks about the grave consequences of contention. As to the phrase ? misfortune and sorrow for devas and humans? ( ahitaaya dukkhaaya devamanussaana.m ), the co refers to the Kosambiyasutta (M. I, no 48) where the Buddha exhorted the monks of Kosambii who were quarreling. When two bhikkhus have fallen into a dispute their pupils in their dwelling places also dispute, the members of the community who exhort them dispute, their followers also dispute. The protector-devas of humans are also in two parties, namely speakers of dhamma and speakers of adhamma. The earth devas who are friends of the protector-devas are broken up into two parties. The Co. explains that those who proclaim adhamma are greater in number than those who proclaim dhamma. Those who esteem and proclaim adhamma are reborn in unhappy planes (apaayesu nibbattanti). It is thus that a dispute between two bhikkhus leads to misfortune and sorrow for devas and humans. The commentary paraphrases some words and expressions and we can find these explanations also in ?Dispeller of Delusion?, Ch 17, Minor Bases (p. 249). As to < (If, friends, you should discover such a root of contention) among yourselves or among others,>, the words ajjhatta.m, internal, and bahiddhaa, external, are used. Within your community or outside of your comunity. As to deceitful,makkhii: this regards someone else?s good qualities. He besmurches these according to the Dispeller of Delusion. Malicious, pa.laasii: with the characteristic of rivalry. Dispeller: domineering. Envious, issukii: of others? honour. Avaricious, macchaarii, as to dwelling, etc. N: One may be stingy as to dwelling, family, gifts, reputation, Dhamma. A bhikkhu may not want another bhikkhu to approach a family he usually visits. One may not want to share Dhamma. As to cunning, sa.tho, he is fraudulent and deceitful. Dispeller: ?he is one who does not speak rightly because of making a show of non- existent qualities.? Deceitful, maayaavii: he conceals his own evil deeds. As to wrong view, here the three kinds of wrong view are mentioned that are akusala kamma patha: natthika-di.t.thi, there is no result of kamma; ahetuka-ditthi, there are no causes; akiriya di.t.thi, there is no such thing as kamma. -------- This sutta can be applied not only to the monks? community, but also to the daily life of all of us. It is dangerous to quarrel and take sides. The sutta reminds us of all the defilements that can arise as a consequence. The whole sutta deals with daily life. We read about lack of respect to the Triple Gem, and ?not finishing one?s training? (sikkhaaya na paripuurakaarii). This is an exhortation to develop satipa.t.thaana now, since this eventually leads to the eradication of defilements. This is the highest respect to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. -------- Nina. #108636 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:31 pm Subject: Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... szmicio Hello Howard > L: I agree, recently I was studying Atthasalini and there was said on > different functions of pitakas. Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma has different > purpose. But none of the pitakas has anihilation purpose. > > In atthasalini there is explanation of dhamma, and dhamma means empty of > being or essence. This is for sure not anithilation view. > ==================================== > The term 'dhamma' literally implies "holding its own being or essence" > rather than "empty of being or essence." Despite that formal meaning, in > the suttas, 'dhamma' is used informally as we would use "thing" in ordinary > English, and it even applies to conglomerates, but in the Abhidhamma and > the Theravadin commentaries, I have been led to understand, and especially as > Khun Sujin and Nina use the term, dhammas are considered "realities" with > own-being and own-nature. If the Atthasalini explains dhammas as being > empty of being or essence, that comes as a happy surprise to me, and I would > love to see exactly what is said there in this regard. I think this is a > matter of some importance. I quote Atthasalini: Best wishes Lukas #108637 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:43 pm Subject: Re: Mahasi nidive Hi Fabian, > Where did you read, if we are practicing for higher fruits, we need to attain Samatha jhanas? Firstly, the Buddha defined Right Concentration as the four samatha jhanas. See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/index.html Secondly, the Buddha taught that the attainment of at least the first jhana is necessary for arahantship. See MN 64: -------------------- 7. "There is a path, Aananda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without coming to that path, to that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters - this is not possible. 9. "And what, Aananda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from object of attachment [note 654], with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhaana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. "Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. [note 655] He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: `This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving dispassion, cessation, Nibbaana." [note 656] Standing upon that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints, then because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, [note 657], with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously [in Pure Abodes] and there attain final Nibbaana without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters. (Bhikkhu Naanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) (Courtesy of Christine Forsyth of DSG) -------------------- To my understanding, the concentration of the fourth jhana certainly allows one to swiftly attain arahantship through the special power of vipassana. But the concentration of the first jhana is the minimum requisite to attain arahantship and this concentration may not be strong enough for some meditators and they only achieve anagami-ship. Swee Boon #108638 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the ALL actually? ashkenn2k Dear pt No textual reference.? It is from my own conclusion?basing from what I read on arising of dhamma..? Sub moments are describe just to show the impermance of dhamma and??just to show the presence.??? If I am not wrong, in the patthana,??the arising, presence and degrading all could condition the arising of dhammas.? Feel free to throw?my own conclusion?out :-)? Cheers Ken O #108639 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 18 schools nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 24-jul-2010, om 13:49 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > There was this commentary on controversy something like that, I > dont know the pali name, there was said about the history of > theravada, I think this shall be do most important source.Do you > know the pali name of this book? ------ N: The co to the Kathaa-vatthu, Debates Commentary, has an intro and here the 18 schools are dealt with. ----- Nina. #108640 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... nilovg Dear Lukas, thanks you for your quote. I just add the Pali: The ?Atthasaalinii? (38, Co. to the Dhammasangani) summarizes different meanings of the word dhamma: Dhammasaddo panaaya.m pariyatti-hetu-gu.na-nissatta-nijjiivata-adiisu dissati. And the word dhamma is used in the sense of scriptural text (pariyatti), virtue (gu.na), absence of an entity, living thing (nissatta, nijjiva), etc. Aya~nhi "dhamma.m pariyaapu.naati sutta.m geyyan"ti-aadiisu (a. ni. 4.102) pariyattiya.m dissati. In such passages as, ?This one studies the Dhamma, the Sutta and the Geyya... dhamma means ?the Scriptures?. "Hetumhi ~naa.na.m dhamma pa.tisambhidaa"ti-aadiisu (vibha. 720) hetumhi. In such passages as ,?Knowledge of root-conditions is analysis of dhamma (pa.tisambhidaa)-dhamma means root-condition or cause. ------- Nina Op 24-jul-2010, om 17:31 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > I quote Atthasalini: > > text,' 'root-condition,' 'virtue,' 'absence of an entity, living > thing,' etc. In such passages as, 'This one studies the Dhamma, the > Sutta and the Geyya' {M i 133} - dhamma means 'the Scriptures.' In > such passages as, 'Knowledge of root-conditions is analysis of > dhamma' {Vibh 293} - dhamma means 'root-condition, or cause.' In > such passages as, > > 'Dhamma, adhamma bear not equal fruit: > One leads to Heaven, the other leads to Hell' - > > dhamma means 'virtue,' or 'good quality.' {Theragaathaa ver.304} > > In such passages as, 'At the time of consciousness coming into > existence, there occur dhammas' {M i 61}; and again, 'he abides > watchful over certain dhammas' - dhamma implies 'absence of an > entity or living soul.' [39] And in the Dhammasanga.nii also it is > proper to take it in this sense.> #108641 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/24/2010 11:36:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: > The term 'dhamma' literally implies "holding its own being or essence" > rather than "empty of being or essence." Despite that formal meaning, in > the suttas, 'dhamma' is used informally as we would use "thing" in ordinary > English, and it even applies to conglomerates, but in the Abhidhamma and > the Theravadin commentaries, I have been led to understand, and especially as > Khun Sujin and Nina use the term, dhammas are considered "realities" with > own-being and own-nature. If the Atthasalini explains dhammas as being > empty of being or essence, that comes as a happy surprise to me, and I would > love to see exactly what is said there in this regard. I think this is a > matter of some importance. I quote Atthasalini: Best wishes Lukas ============================ Thank you for this, Lukas. I find it quite odd, though. Nina, do you have any comment on this? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #108642 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the ALL actually? ashkenn2k Dear Fabian There is an important difference between exist in thinking and real. Exist in thinking because of our misconstruction, or habit or perversion of perception. This arise of because of not understanding the real nature of dhamma, due to conceit, lobha and ditthi that arise with moha. For eg, will anyone in 100 years ago knows about iPhone or computer. But they would know the characteristics of feelings, dosa and adosa. Understanding dhamma is like learning the scientific table of elements, oxygen and hyrogen etc. Combine them you get water. These elements are the basic block of the universe according to the scientist. to Buddhist it is the paramatha dhamma. It is craving which is the dhamma that bring us go round in circle. It is moha a dhamma that blinds us from seeing the real nature of dhamma so we continue to think tree is real, self is real, our body is real. Tree, self and body are just mental construct, while thinking it as a tree, body and self is real. Tree, body and self exist only in thinking but they are not real. The color, the hardness, the temperature of tree and body are real. cheers Ken O > >From: chandrafabian >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, 20 July 2010 14:43:11 >Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the ALL actually? > > >Dear Ken O, > >I agree, with you everything around us exist because we think of it, and it >doesn't exist if we don't think about it. >But exist for other people, whot hinks about it. >Whether anyone think of it or not think of it, the rocks still there and >continually change. > >Mettacittena, >fabian > >---------------------------------------------------------- >KO: Dear Fabian > >Yes they exist because citta thinks of it. If citta does not think of the >concepts, it woud not exist. Trees and house exist because of appropriate >conditions arise due to seeing and thinking.  But do such concepts have >distinct characteristic - No :-). We must differentiate between exist and >distinct nature. Exist does not mean it has distinct nature. > >One thing is for sure, dhamma is real, exist by causes and it has distinct >characteristics. > >cheers >Ken O > > > #108643 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making process nidive Hi Fabian, > I sorry my question is not clear enough for you to understand. > Have you ever meditate Swee Boon? Anapanasati? How do you know air is entering and coming out of your nostril when you meditate Anapanasati? By simply focusing your attention on the in-breath and out-breath. But anapansati is not actually about air entering and coming out of nostril. It is about calming the mind such that the mind finds delight in the breath. When the mind is satisfied with the delightful breath, it does not stray away from it and there arises piti and sukha. I have once meditated to such a state that the breath is so delightful that it becomes subtler and subtler that the breath actually feels so light. It comes to a point that the breath actually disappears and you are no longer aware of in and out breath. At this point, a beautiful 'full moon' nimitta actually appeared in my mind's eye. Unfortunately, I was caught surprised by the appearance of the 'full moon' and the experience ended. After this experience, by chance, I got hold of the book The Jhanas by Ajahn Brahmavamso. I was pleasantly surprised how his description of entering the first jhana was so similar to my experience. He even described how an inexperienced person will be caught surprised by the appearance of the 'full moon' nimitta and how one is to overcome it and finally enter the first jhana. Of course, I reserve the right to say that both I and Ajahn Brahmavamso could be wrong. But I am currently convinced that this is the way to the first jhana and Ajahn Brahmavamso is teaching it in the correct way as I find his teachings on the jhanas is very close to the descriptions in the suttas. Swee Boon #108644 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making process nidive Hi Fabian, [This reply is reposted as the first did not appear.] > I sorry my question is not clear enough for you to understand. > Have you ever meditate Swee Boon? Anapanasati? How do you know air is entering and coming out of your nostril when you meditate Anapanasati? By simply focusing your attention on the in-breath and out-breath. But anapansati is not actually about air entering and coming out of nostril. It is about calming the mind such that the mind finds delight in the breath. When the mind is satisfied with the delightful breath, it does not stray away from it and there arises piti and sukha. I have once meditated to such a state that the breath is so delightful that it becomes subtler and subtler that the breath actually feels so light. It comes to a point that the breath actually disappears and you are no longer aware of in and out breath. At this point, a beautiful 'full moon' nimitta actually appeared in my mind's eye. Unfortunately, I was caught surprised by the appearance of the 'full moon' and the experience ended. After this experience, by chance, I got hold of the book The Jhanas by Ajahn Brahmavamso. I was pleasantly surprised how his description of entering the first jhana was so similar to my experience. He even described how an inexperienced person will be caught surprised by the appearance of the 'full moon' nimitta and how one is to overcome it and finally enter the first jhana. Of course, I reserve the right to say that both I and Ajahn Brahmavamso could be wrong. But I am currently convinced that this is the way to the first jhana and Ajahn Brahmavamso is teaching it in the correct way as I find his teachings on the jhanas is very close to the descriptions in the suttas. Swee Boon #108645 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the ALL actually? truth_aerator >KO: It is craving which is the dhamma that bring us go round in >circle. It is moha a dhamma that blinds us from seeing the real >nature of dhamma so we continue to think tree is real, self is real, >our body is real. Tree, self and body are just mental construct, >while thinking it as a tree, body and self is real. Tree, body and >self exist only in thinking but they are not real. The color, the >hardness, the temperature of tree and body are real. Dear KenO, all interested, Your explanation is very interesting. However I do from time to time think that it sounds too philosophical, too much like the talk that the Buddha didn't recommend (existence and non-existence). One may crave for something (ex: alchohol, drugs, breaking precepts, etc) not because one thinks that it really really exists as one may be philosophical and deny its existence at all. One miscalculates and misjudges pleasure now vs long term damage that may occur. We can be attached to things not because we think that they really exist, but due to the pleasure we think that they can give us. Infact it can be dangerous to deny anyone who may get in harms way or reaps good or bad results of kamma. I really like this article: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/integrityofemptiness.html With metta, Alex #108646 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:46 pm Subject: Re: Mahasi kenhowardau Hi Fabian (and Swee Boon), ------ F: > > Where did you read, if we are practicing for higher fruits, we need to attain Samatha jhanas? > > SB: > Firstly, the Buddha defined Right Concentration as the four samatha jhanas. See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/index.html Secondly, the Buddha taught that the attainment of at least the first jhana is necessary for arahantship. See MN 64: 7. "There is a path, Aananda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without coming to that path, to that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters - this is not possible. ---- Don't let me interrupt. I don't want to get involved in this conversation except to point out the dangers of going one's own way. Swee Boon has scornfully rejected the Abhidhamma and Commentaries and has admitted that he prefers his own sutta interpretations. Some of those interpretations, such as the one he has just given, are in complete contradiction of those [rejected] texts. So, Fabian, how can you expect to know when you are being told something that is in accordance with the Tipitaka, and when you are being told the opposite? What purpose can this type of conversation possibly serve? Ken H #108647 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... kenhowardau Hi Howard, Lukas and Nina, ---- <. . .> H: > Thank you for this, Lukas. I find it quite odd, though. Nina, do you have any comment on this? ---- The situation has become confused, but I might be able to help. As I see it, Howard, you took Lukas to be saying that dhammas had no sabhava (inherent characteristics) and you thought he was saying he had read that in the Atthasalini. Therefore, you asked him for a quote. I don't know how you interpreted the quote he then gave, but you found the whole situation quite odd. I think however, that Lukas was never supporting the idea that dhammas had no sabhava. He had originally written: "In atthasalini there is explanation of dhamma, and dhamma means empty of being or essence. This is for sure not annihilation view." The source of confusion might lie in the words "being" and "essence". Both can mean sabhava, and both can mean self. In this case I feel sure Lukas was using them to mean self, whereas you, Howard, misunderstood him to be meaning sabhava, (inherent characteristics, absolute reality). Does that help? Ken H #108648 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:04 am Subject: Re: Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail nidive Hi All, > I just searched and found this. What do you think? > > “Sariputta, the Buddha Vipassin and the Buddha Sikhin and the Buddha Vessabhu were weary of [lit. 'exhausted' from kila-su] preaching dhamma in detail to the disciples; and these had little of the Suttas in prose or in prose and verse, the Expositions, the Songs, the Verses of Uplift, the Quotations, the Jatakas, the Miracles, the Miscellanies; the course of training for the disciples was not made known, the Patimokkha was not appointed. > > And these Buddhas were untiring in exhorting the disciples, for they read their minds with their own: Formerly, Sariputta, the Buddha Vessabhu, perfected, all enlightened one, in a certain awe-inspiring jungle-thicket exhorted and admonished a congregation of a thousand monks, reading their minds with his own, and saying: Apply the mind thus, you should not apply the mind thus ; pay attention thus,’ you should not pay attention thus; forsake this; having attained this, abide in it. In my opinion, this is a fake discourse from the Vinaya text. I find it incredulous that a Tathagatha would not make known the course of training for his disciples. At the very least, the Noble Eightfold Path should be made known. Also, who would be so stupid to teach the Dhamma on a personal basis for each and every disciple through mind-reading. Who wouldn't be tired by doing so? It's inefficient and painful. I don't believe Buddhas are this stupid. Furthermore, I don't believe that Gotama had met all these past Buddhas in his previous life and known them in such detail through past life recollection that he could make such comments. Perhaps the only exception is Buddha Kassapa whom Gotama was his disciple in a past life. Lastly, I believe that discourses such as this, DN 14 and MN 123 are fake discourses that is the precursor to the full-blown idea of the Bodhisatta Path. Just to share my thoughts and there is no need to reply if you disagree. Swee Boon #108649 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:11 am Subject: Re: Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail nidive Hi Han Tun, > In para 3.28 of DN 14, > > "And then the Lord Buddha Vipassii gave to the assembled monks the following precepts: > > "Patient forbearance is the highest sacrifice, > Supreme is Nibbaana, so say the Buddhas. > He's not 'one gone forth' who hurts others, > No ascetic he who harms another. > > Not to do any evil, but cultivate the good, > To purify one's mind, this the Buddhas teach. > > Not insulting, not harming, restraint according to rule, > Moderation in food, seclusion of dwelling, > Devotion to high thinking, this the Buddhas teach." > > [these verses are the same as Dhammapada verses 184, 183, 185 respectively.] Thank you for sharing your knowledge that these three verses are the same from the Dhammapada. I am now more convinced than ever that DN 14 is a fake discourse not spoken by the Buddha. Maurice Walshe indicates in note 259 that DN 14 is a late sutta. (http://www.leighb.com/lineage.htm). I am now convinced that the author of DN 14 plagiarized from the Dhammapada and other such earlier texts. Swee Boon #108650 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/24/2010 10:13:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, Lukas and Nina, ---- <. . .> H: > Thank you for this, Lukas. I find it quite odd, though. Nina, do you have any comment on this? ---- The situation has become confused, but I might be able to help. As I see it, Howard, you took Lukas to be saying that dhammas had no sabhava (inherent characteristics) and you thought he was saying he had read that in the Atthasalini. Therefore, you asked him for a quote. I don't know how you interpreted the quote he then gave, but you found the whole situation quite odd. I think however, that Lukas was never supporting the idea that dhammas had no sabhava. He had originally written: "In atthasalini there is explanation of dhamma, and dhamma means empty of being or essence. This is for sure not annihilation view." The source of confusion might lie in the words "being" and "essence". Both can mean sabhava, and both can mean self. In this case I feel sure Lukas was using them to mean self, whereas you, Howard, misunderstood him to be meaning sabhava, (inherent characteristics, absolute reality). Does that help? --------------------------------------------- Maybe so. I'm not sure. In any case, thanks. :-) --------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #108651 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail farrellkevin80 Swee: In my opinion, this is a fake discourse from the Vinaya text. I find it incredulous that a Tathagatha would not make known the course of training for his disciples. At the very least, the Noble Eightfold Path should be made known. Also, who would be so stupid to teach the Dhamma on a personal basis for each and every disciple through mind-reading. Who wouldn't be tired by doing so? It's inefficient and painful. I don't believe Buddhas are this stupid. __________ Kevin: You will go down to the nether regions of hell talking that way. Have a nice day, Kevin ___________ http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108652 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail nidive Hi Kevin, > Kevin: You will go down to the nether regions of hell talking that way. But what I am saying makes sense. If a teaching Buddha does not make known the Four Noble Truths, then he is not a teaching Buddha. -------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/index.html "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." -------------------- This Noble Eightfold Path is the course of training for all disciples, whether they are ordained persons or lay persons. I am sorry you think I am going to hell but I am not because I am saying the truth. Swee Boon #108653 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only Nibbana is Paramattha sacca (Ultimate Truth) sarahprocter... Dear pt, --- On Sat, 24/7/10, ptaus1 wrote: >pt: This is very interesting. I'm not sure I understand all of it yet, so I'll come back with more questions when I wrap my mind around it a bit better. Thanks. ... S: Look forward to that! Nice to have you at the computer with me too:-) Metta Sarah p.s just testing with the following techno issue.... Evam. me sutam. – ekam. samayam. bhagava- antara- ca ra-jagaham. #108654 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... nilovg Hi Howard, Op 24-jul-2010, om 21:05 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Thank you for this, Lukas. I find it quite odd, though. Nina, do you > have any comment on this? ------- N: See my Pali addition. There are many meanings of dhamma. What Lukas quoted is completely correct, and see also the sutta texts there is reference to. I can give more, but that may be too long. Before I posted a study of this. See especially: absence of an entity, living thing (nissatta, nijjiva). nissatta: no being. nijjiva: no life. Nina. #108655 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:32 pm Subject: Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... szmicio Hi Ken, Howard, Nina I was always wondering what's the difference between sabhava and lakkhana. Ajahn Sujin speaks a lot about characteristics of realities that can be known, so then she refers to lakkhana of dhamma or sabhava of dhamma? Another point is all dhammas have sabhava, but they are all empty, without any essence in it. They are empty, even the characteristic is there. In my opinnion the characteristic of reality is only the object of understanding. sabbe dhamma anatta, anatta according to Dispeller of delussion means empty. So each dhamma is empty , without essence in it. But there is characteristic of it, sabhava, thus they can be understood by panna. I write this because I read few articles on 'dhammas exist' in theravada viewpoint. But none of commentaries I came accross give any statement that dhammas exist. The only think I come accross is that each dhamma has the characteristic that can be an object to understanding. Best wishes Lukas > H: > Thank you for this, Lukas. I find it quite odd, though. Nina, do you have any comment on this? > ---- > > The situation has become confused, but I might be able to help. > > As I see it, Howard, you took Lukas to be saying that dhammas had no sabhava (inherent characteristics) and you thought he was saying he had read that in the Atthasalini. Therefore, you asked him for a quote. I don't know how you interpreted the quote he then gave, but you found the whole situation quite odd. > > I think however, that Lukas was never supporting the idea that dhammas had no sabhava. He had originally written: > > "In atthasalini there is explanation of dhamma, and dhamma means empty of being or essence. This is for sure not annihilation view." > > The source of confusion might lie in the words "being" and "essence". Both can mean sabhava, and both can mean self. > > In this case I feel sure Lukas was using them to mean self, whereas you, Howard, misunderstood him to be meaning sabhava, (inherent characteristics, absolute reality). > > Does that help? > > Ken H > #108656 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 7/25/2010 8:32:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Hi Ken, Howard, Nina I was always wondering what's the difference between sabhava and lakkhana. Ajahn Sujin speaks a lot about characteristics of realities that can be known, so then she refers to lakkhana of dhamma or sabhava of dhamma? ---------------------------------------------- My understanding is that in (proper) Theravada there is no difference: Hardness rupas, warmth rupas, sights, sounds etc are all simply passing (material) experiential qualities. When identified as separate, self-existent "things," the fact that they are nothing more than varying, fleeting, contingent qualities tends to be lost. ------------------------------------------------ Another point is all dhammas have sabhava, but they are all empty, without any essence in it. -------------------------------------------------- If by 'sabhava' one means "quality," I think it is better to speak of them *being* qualities rather than *having* qualities. As soon as one thinks of a dhamma as a "thing" that HAS qualities, one is thinking in terms of entities and essence. Conventionally, of course, there is no problem in "thing language" so long as one realizes that this is mere manner of speaking. --------------------------------------------------- They are empty, even the characteristic is there. In my opinnion the characteristic of reality is only the object of understanding. sabbe dhamma anatta, anatta according to Dispeller of delussion means empty. -------------------------------------------------- Yes, empty of essence, independence, own-being, self-existence. ------------------------------------------------- So each dhamma is empty , without essence in it. But there is characteristic of it, sabhava, thus they can be understood by panna. --------------------------------------------------- Mere fleeting qualities, all of them, to be known as such by wisdom. --------------------------------------------------- I write this because I read few articles on 'dhammas exist' in theravada viewpoint. But none of commentaries I came across give any statement that dhammas exist. The only think I come across is that each dhamma has the characteristic that can be an object to understanding. ------------------------------------------------------ I think you are very close to a perfect emptiness perspective, Lukas! ---------------------------------------------------- Best wishes Lukas ============================= With metta, Howard The Aggregates are Void /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #108657 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the ALL actually? ashkenn2k Daer Alex > >One may crave for something (ex: alchohol, drugs, breaking precepts, etc) not >because one thinks that it really really exists as one may be philosophical and >deny its existence at all. One miscalculates and misjudges pleasure now vs long >term damage that may occur. We can be attached to things not because we think >that they really exist, but due to the pleasure we think that they can give us. KO: Yes we associated pleasure (a feeling dhamma) with alchohol, drugs, this assocation is due to sanna and the attachment to such things is craving. So we miscontrues alochol, drugs are real, we forget the dhamma that arise which is craving that is the cause, the source and the condition to these objects. So look at the dhammas and not the alochol or drugs. Investigate its nature, then panna will grow to lessen the craving Existence of concepts do not matter, whether they are real or not real do not matter, it is the dhamma that arise with the concepts that matter. Why because in different planes we still crave, it could be different object for eg for those in the animal realm, some like meat while others like grass, meat or grass are just habitual concepts conditioned by craving. cheers Ken O > >Infact it can be dangerous to deny anyone who may get in harms way or reaps good > >or bad results of kamma. > >I really like this article: >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/integrityofemptiness.html > >With metta, > >Alex > > > #108658 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... ashkenn2k Dear?Lukas lakkhana?are?the three characteristics on all?conditioned dhammas even panna is also anicca, dukkha and anatta.?? It is the nature of conditioned dhammas, ?Whereas sabhava is explaining the nature of the?individual characteristics of conditioned dhammas.? All?dhammas are not self, no?essence or no being.? So when sabhava, its plain meaning is just explaining?that each dhamma as its own unique properties but it is still?anccia, anatta and dukkha for conditioned dhammas. So it is impossible for dhammas to have a self or a being because it is by nature not self irregardless how we want to describe the uniqueness of each dhamma like sabhava.? Call it another name or what, it does not affect an onunce towards the nature of dhamma and the uniqueness of each dhamma.? hope that helps Cheers Ken O #108659 From: A T Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:04 pm Subject: why past teaching didn't last long truth_aerator Hello all interested, To the question of why past dhamma didn't last long the two major replies are: 1) It was forgotten over time. Monks didn't compile and save the teaching by reciting it for generations like it has happened under this Buddha. So after couple of generations the teaching was forgotten. 2) People started to add their own opinions and commentaries. As the result the teaching got diluted and for practical reasons "drowned". According to DN29 it is crucial that both the letter (attho) and the meaning (byañjana) to be preserved. Some perhaps had a brilliant thought that their commentaries can be equal to the Buddha's teaching... Wrong idea. Only the Buddha knows the Best. No one can equal Him. Even the Arahant of such caliber as Ven. Sariputta could underestimate the listener and give inappropriate teaching and as a result be less than ideal. See MN97 Dhananjani Sutta for example. An aryan can teach the Dhamma, but it may be possible that the teaching is either inappropriate or not-ideally expressed. Due to expression being "less than ideal" (Only Buddha was the best) it could be misconstrued by the listener. Also as simsipa leaves simile tells us, not all information (no matter how true) may be useful. A lot of information isn't useful as the Buddha has said in SN 56.31. But extra information *could* be misinterpreted and in that sense be harmful for the undiscerning. ============ “"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."” http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.023.than.html "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.025.than.html =================================== “The Teaching (dhammo) and the Discipline (vinayo) should be consulted,' - MN103 ======================================== Also DN16 states that, whenever someone says that the Buddha said so and so, his statement needs to be checked against the suttas... If the words of the master is available, they are the best. Not work of his pupils that can only be lower than Him. It is true that the Buddha in the *suttas* has approved some commentary by His direct disciples. However this was relevant when the Buddha was alive and could personally accept, reject or re-phrase the teaching. Not so after His passing away. IMHO With metta, Alex #108660 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making process nidive Hi Fabian, [This reply is re-posted as the first did not appear.] > I sorry my question is not clear enough for you to understand. > Have you ever meditate Swee Boon? Anapanasati? How do you know air is entering and coming out of your nostril when you meditate Anapanasati? By simply focusing your attention on the in-breath and out-breath. But anapansati is not actually about air entering and coming out of nostril. It is about calming the mind such that the mind finds delight in the breath. When the mind is satisfied with the delightful breath, it does not stray away from it and there arises piti and sukha. I have once meditated to such a state that the breath is so delightful that it becomes subtler and subtler that the breath actually feels so light. It comes to a point that the breath actually disappears and you are no longer aware of in and out breath. At this point, a beautiful 'full moon' nimitta actually appeared in my mind's eye. Unfortunately, I was caught surprised by the appearance of the 'full moon' and the experience ended. After this experience, by chance, I got hold of the book The Jhanas by Ajahn Brahmavamso. I was pleasantly surprised how his description of entering the first jhana was so similar to my experience. He even described how an inexperienced person will be caught surprised by the appearance of the 'full moon' nimitta and how one is to overcome it and finally enter the first jhana. Of course, I reserve the right to say that both I and Ajahn Brahmavamso could be wrong. But I am currently convinced that this is the way to the first jhana and Ajahn Brahmavamso is teaching it in the correct way as I find his teachings on the jhanas is very close to the descriptions in the suttas. Swee Boon #108661 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:18 am Subject: Buddhist Cosmology chandrafabian Dear All, For the last few years I've been comparing maistream physics cosmology and Buddhist cosmology, I've found out the physics cosmology was actually incorrect to say the universe started from bigbang. In my opinion bigbang theory is, another creation theory in different form. Would anyone sharing opinion please...? mettacittena, fabian #108662 From: "lawstu_uk" Date: Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:09 pm Subject: Confusion - awareness of 4 elements within one's body lawstu_uk Hello All, I am getting very confused about this topic 'Awareness of 4 elements within one's body'. I understand what Nina, Alex, Howard and Ken are saying individually but I am getting very confused. I understand everything is conditioned and Dhamma occurs naturally. But does this mean one cannot decide to perform good deeds or bad deeds? If we say whether one performs good deeds or bad deeds are conditioned, then are we justifying bad deeds and discourage good deeds in a way? Did Buddha or other wise encourage people to perform good deeds? Another confusing is that reading Dhamma is one thing and applying it in daily life is another -- what makes 'someone' apply it in daily life? What I am trying to ask is that someone can read Dhamma, but he/she takes Dhamma as intellectual theorising. Yet another person can study Dhamma and applies it in daily life. In a way I understand Dhamma cannot be forced. Like Ajahn Naeb said, any intentional posture is rooted in a belief in 'self' and greed. Yet in the suttas, we read ordained monks/nuns performed walking meditation. I am sure I am not the first one who gets confused and certainly won't be the last one -- so if anyone knows any past discussions on this confusion, please let me know. Best wishes, Andrew #108663 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro chandrafabian Dear Swee Boon, That is not what I'm asking you, I just ask you very simple question: how do you know the air is going in or going out? (ana-pana)? just a little comment to your experience, nimitta arises doesn't necessarily Jhana, your experience is not Jhana bro. A person who has achieved Jhana can feel the five factors of Jhana ( vitakka, vicara....etc). You caught by surprised it means your experience in nimitta is not yet mature, just in the beginning stage of upacara Samadhi. Still you have to practice until the nimitta stable and not dissapeared. Now back to my question, how do you know the air is going in or going out of your nostril when practicing Anapanasati? Very simple question bro.... Mettacittena, fabian --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Swee Boon" wrote: > > Hi Fabian, > > > I sorry my question is not clear enough for you to understand. > > Have you ever meditate Swee Boon? Anapanasati? How do you know air is entering and coming out of your nostril when you meditate Anapanasati? > > By simply focusing your attention on the in-breath and out-breath. But anapansati is not actually about air entering and coming out of nostril. It is about calming the mind such that the mind finds delight in the breath. When the mind is satisfied with the delightful breath, it does not stray away from it and there arises piti and sukha. I have once meditated to such a state that the breath is so delightful that it becomes subtler and subtler that the breath actually feels so light. It comes to a point that the breath actually disappears and you are no longer aware of in and out breath. At this point, a beautiful 'full moon' nimitta actually appeared in my mind's eye. Unfortunately, I was caught surprised by the appearance of the 'full moon' and the experience ended. > > After this experience, by chance, I got hold of the book The Jhanas by Ajahn Brahmavamso. I was pleasantly surprised how his description of entering the first jhana was so similar to my experience. He even described how an inexperienced person will be caught surprised by the appearance of the 'full moon' nimitta and how one is to overcome it and finally enter the first jhana. > > Of course, I reserve the right to say that both I and Ajahn Brahmavamso could be wrong. But I am currently convinced that this is the way to the first jhana and Ajahn Brahmavamso is teaching it in the correct way as I find his teachings on the jhanas is very close to the descriptions in the suttas. > > Swee Boon > #108664 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:56 am Subject: Re: Mahasi chandrafabian Dear Swee Boon, Only few people understand, it is impossible to practice Vipassana while you are in Jhana. Visuddhi Magga explain this clearly, he should emerge from Jhana, so it means you must exit of Jhana, and then should use the strong concentration after achieving Jhana to practice Vipassana by observing nama-rupa. And this statement also explain what is the meaning of using "fourth Jhana as the basis". It means you attain fourth Jhana first and then exit. So it is not as simple as it seems to learn Sutta, you must learn from people who has experienced in practice and really understand how to practice. Now I asked you again, where is the referrence saying, "you NEED TO attain Samatha Jhanas to practice higher fruits? As far as I know Sutta always say, "THERE IS THE CASE" never say, "NEED TO or HAVE TO". mettacittena, fabian --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Swee Boon" wrote: > > Hi Fabian, > > > Where did you read, if we are practicing for higher fruits, we need to attain Samatha jhanas? > > Firstly, the Buddha defined Right Concentration as the four samatha jhanas. See: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/index.html > > Secondly, the Buddha taught that the attainment of at least the first jhana is necessary for arahantship. See MN 64: > > -------------------- > 7. "There is a path, Aananda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without coming to that path, to that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters - this is not possible. > > 9. "And what, Aananda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from object of attachment [note 654], with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhaana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. > "Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. [note 655] He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: `This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving dispassion, cessation, Nibbaana." [note 656] Standing upon that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints, then because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, [note 657], with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously [in Pure Abodes] and there attain final Nibbaana without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters. > > (Bhikkhu Naanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) > (Courtesy of Christine Forsyth of DSG) > -------------------- > > To my understanding, the concentration of the fourth jhana certainly allows one to swiftly attain arahantship through the special power of vipassana. But the concentration of the first jhana is the minimum requisite to attain arahantship and this concentration may not be strong enough for some meditators and they only achieve anagami-ship. > > Swee Boon > #108665 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:24 am Subject: Re: Mahasi chandrafabian Dear Ken I just want to point out, it is not wise to make conclusion of Dhamma not based on Valid reference i.e. Tipitaka. I am waiting his answer. So I can continue further to guide him to point out where his mistake, by making such harsh remarks on Noble Person and great learned like Mahasi Sayadaw. his remark is contemptuous. It is improper to say that. Mettacittena, fabian. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Fabian (and Swee Boon), > > ------ > F: > > Where did you read, if we are practicing for higher fruits, we need to attain Samatha jhanas? > > > > > SB: > Firstly, the Buddha defined Right Concentration as the four samatha jhanas. See: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/index.html > > Secondly, the Buddha taught that the attainment of at least the first jhana is necessary for arahantship. See MN 64: > > > 7. "There is a path, Aananda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without coming to that path, to that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters - this is not possible. > ---- > > Don't let me interrupt. I don't want to get involved in this conversation except to point out the dangers of going one's own way. Swee Boon has scornfully rejected the Abhidhamma and Commentaries and has admitted that he prefers his own sutta interpretations. Some of those interpretations, such as the one he has just given, are in complete contradiction of those [rejected] texts. > > So, Fabian, how can you expect to know when you are being told something that is in accordance with the Tipitaka, and when you are being told the opposite? What purpose can this type of conversation possibly serve? > > Ken H > #108666 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:09 am Subject: Re: Confusion - awareness of 4 elements within one's body truth_aerator Dear Andrew, all, >Andrew: I understand everything is conditioned and Dhamma occurs >naturally. But does this mean one cannot decide to perform good >deeds or bad deeds? Just because everything is conditioned it doesn't mean that it doesn't occur. Swimming is fully conditioned, yet it occurs. >Andrew: Did Buddha or other wise encourage people to perform good >deeds? Yes He did and often. ============== "Monks, I have known two qualities through experience: discontent with regard to skillful qualities[1] and unrelenting exertion. Relentlessly I exerted myself, [thinking,] 'Gladly would I let the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if I have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing my persistence.' From this heedfulness of mine was attained Awakening. From this heedfulness of mine was attained the unexcelled freedom from bondage." ... ""You, too, monks, should relentlessly exert yourselves, [thinking,] 'Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence.' You, too, in no long time will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.005.than.html You are correct that all things are not-self. But anatta doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, and neither does it mean that effort is not needed. Also, it is important that one doesn't confuse INTELLECTUAL understanding vs realization. The two are worlds apart. Just like reading the menu will not cure hunger, same with reading the menu of Dhamma. Just like reading the ingredient list vs tasting the food, same is with THEORIZING vs REALIZING. You can write and describe the characteristics of lets say "lobha", but that is just a description and very poor one. The actual experience is much much different and lobha comes in MANY intensities and varieties - such that it may be impossible to totally and fully to describe it in writing only. Just like taste of food cannot be 100% described with mere words, same with experience. Experience must be experienced, while theory only theorizes. While it is important to know the right theory, one shouldn't take it to be the beginning and the end. One shouldn't use "wisdom" as an excuse for inaction when it comes to kusala. We had lots of inaction towards kusala, and are we awakened yet? With metta, Alex #108667 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:21 am Subject: A get-together with Pt, Vince & Nancy! sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Ken H, Pt & all, Yesterday, we were delighted to spend the day with Pt who came over by buses and ferry to join us, Vince and Nancy for a very informal get-together. Next time we hope Ken H and others may be able to join as well. After an early swim in the chilly water, Jon and I raced around in the morning putting the last bits and pieces away from our shipment from Hong Kong. We might not be able to find anything, but at least we were inspired to make the new flat presentable. When Pt (yes, his real name, pronounced more like 'piti') arrived, we sat out on the balcony with its beautiful view of the ocean and surfers, getting to know each other on a personal level. Pt has a very interesting background, coming from Russia and Serbia before moving to Sydney. He speaks a lot of languages! We chatted about how different it is writing on-line vs discussing Dhamma in person. (Nina & all, I took a very nice pic of Pt on our balcony, but have promised not to upload it until I have his permission!!). Whilst Jon and Vince were getting the simple picnic lunch (our cupboard are still pretty bare), Pt, Nancy and I discussed various topics including being aware/thinking about mistakes, meditation - anapanasati, defining awareness, attachment to being aware, to what has gone, identifying awareness (or not), sense and mind-door processes and the complex topic I've been discussing with Pt recently regarding being aware of calm or other dhammas by way of navattaba (unclassifiable), characteristics or dhammas or the same? - many Ken H topics, meditation - quiet moments without thinking, 'relaxing into the moment', stillness - is it insight?, peacefulness, experience, attachment 'drops' when recognised, calm deepening, continuity, meditation happening progressively..... A lovely, lively luncy on the balcony - vegetariand and non-vegatarian kebabs, sushi, apple juice and a lovely non-alcoholic punch which V&N brought. The discussions jumped between personal topics which Vince would bring up, and Dhamma points in rapid succession! And we all continued the range of discussions afterwards inside, rather sleepily for some of us. Lots on samatha - posture dependent?, sotapannas, jhanas, Pa Uk Sayadaw's teachings, recognising dhammas as 'separate from self' and more general chit-chat. Ken H, you'll begin to see how needed you were! By the late afternoon, Vince and Nancy needed to leave to head back to the Blue Mts, but Pt kindly stayed to help load Windows 7 onto my computer (we've had the disc lying around for about 6 mths!!) and to also help with and download some other Pali related software. It was a really delightful evening because whilst waiting for the downloads, he helped me sort our Dhamma library (Nina, I tried to give him a couple of books, but the younger generation are just used to reading everything on-line!), and then sitting at the dining table snacking and discussing more topics in depth. These were mainly on samatha and anapanasati, knowing and recognising the lobha, touching on meditation and health-related issues. Pt, thank you again for all your technical assistance and for coming over for the day. I do hope you didn't get too cold and wet on your way back. It had turned into quite a cold night! I'd be interested to read any of your summaries of the Dhamma points raised and thank you for your patience with all the social chit-chat during the day! We look forward to your next visit - you're very welcome anytime! Metta Sarah p.s so far, no problems with W7, but no noticeable changes as yet either! I look f/w to trying the other programs later - still more cupboard sorting and shopping to do now! ============== #108668 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A get-together with Pt, Vince & Nancy! nilovg Dear Sarah, I was so delighted to read your report about the visit of pt, Vince and Nancy. How wonderful they could come over. Yes, pt is always very, very helpful and patient. I write him again, since Alan Weller contacted him and has now also Unicode on his web. I should have another try. And how good to see Vince and Nancy again. This is the big advantage of living now in Australia. Looking forward to pt's summary of all the Dhamma topics, they were interesting and quite a lot. Nina. Op 26-jul-2010, om 6:21 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Yesterday, we were delighted to spend the day with Pt who came over > by buses and ferry to join us, Vince and Nancy for a very informal > get-together. #108669 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Confusion - awareness of 4 elements within one's body nilovg Dear Andrew, good points and good you share them, since many people are likely to have the same questions. I like Alex's answer and I shall try to add something. Op 24-jul-2010, om 19:09 heeft lawstu_uk het volgende geschreven: > I understand everything is conditioned and Dhamma occurs naturally. > > But does this mean one cannot decide to perform good deeds or bad > deeds? -------- N: It is not so much a matter of decision, but rather a matter of confidence in kusala. Confidence, saddhaa, arises with each kusala citta, it is a cetasika, mental factor. By reading and contemplating the teachings confidence grows naturally. We do not have to try to have more confidence, it just can happen. --------- > > A: If we say whether one performs good deeds or bad deeds are > conditioned, then are we justifying bad deeds and discourage good > deeds in a way? ------ N: Not at all. We come to see more the danger of defilements, and this surely helps. --------- > > A: Did Buddha or other wise encourage people to perform good deeds? ---------- N: As Alex said, all the time. And such exhortations help us to have more confidence. They are a powerful condition for kusala. All kinds of kusala. -------- > > A: Another confusing is that reading Dhamma is one thing and > applying it in daily life is another -- what makes 'someone' apply > it in daily life? > > What I am trying to ask is that someone can read Dhamma, but he/she > takes Dhamma as intellectual theorising. Yet another person can > study Dhamma and applies it in daily life. ------- N: When we listen enough we come to understand that the Dhamma is not theory, that it points to 'practice' and realisation of the truth. This is also true for the Abhidhamma. At first sight it seems that we just read about many classifications, but we can see through these and then understand that the Abhidhamma is completely about daily life. When understanding stemming from listening has grown very, very gradually, there are conditions for awareness and understanding of the naama or ruupa appearing now. But we are not impatient, we do not mind when that will happen. If we mind, the self is at work. -------- > > A:In a way I understand Dhamma cannot be forced. Like Ajahn Naeb > said, any intentional posture is rooted in a belief in 'self' and > greed. Yet in the suttas, we read ordained monks/nuns performed > walking meditation. -------- N: Yes we read about monks walking and then stopping when they found that they were forgetful. That is according to their accumulated tendencies. In general the Buddha said: be mindful no matter what one is doing, walking, standing, lying down, etc. We do not mind what others do, but develop more understanding of the dhamma appearing at this moment. Is there no seeing now? Attachment now? We can learn something, even if it is very little. ------- Nina. #108670 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:18 am Subject: This is my song to the defilements farrellkevin80 This is my song to the Defiliments. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YE594zlUns ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108671 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness of 4 elements within one's body nilovg Dear Alex and Howard, Op 23-jul-2010, om 18:32 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > N: Intentional awareness has to me the flavour of self-seeking. > > A: If one has wrong view, then potentially ANY action done can be > with it. If one has right view then potentially any reasonable > action doesn't have to include "self-seeking". ------ N: Right you are. The idea of self may slip in at any time. Only Pa~n~naa can see through it. -------- > > A: The Buddha, Arhats and even stream-enterers did intentional > actions. Without intention one will not move a finger. But nobody > here (I hope) turning into a rock that doesn't think and doesn't > move (for those actions require intention. --------- N: The word intention in conventional language it is not so precise, it does not tell us about intention from moment to moment. Intention may be akusala or kusala. Intention or volition, cetanaa, is a cetasika accompanying each citta. It coordinates the functions of the accompanying dhammas, and when it arises with kusala citta or akusala citta it is active in kusala or akusala. We should know whether at this moment it is kusala or akusala and this is not easy. We have to investigate the citta of the present moment, but cittas arise and fall away very rapidly, as you know. There is seeing and then unknowingly there may be attachment immediately to what is seen. You see how difficult it is to find out? --------- > > > N: Dhammas appear naturally, and nobody can make them arise. > > A:Yes and no. When one is cold, one puts on more clothing to feel > warmer. When one is hungry, one can eat and temporary satisfy the > feeling of hunger. If the room is messy, one usually can clean it. ------- N: Yes and Howard gave the example of putting one's hand above the fire. Very coarsely we may think that we can regulate cittas of the future, but when we are more precise, considering different cittas, we cannot know nor do anything. Cittas are too fast. True, there is a fixed order of the arising of cittas within a process. Adverting to visible object, seeing, receiving-consciousness, considering the object, determining it, and then follow the javanacittas, kusala or akusala. And this depends on wise attention and unwise attention, who can know ahead of time, it happens too fast. No time to regulate. But this does not mean that the right conditions for kusala could not be cultivated. There can be more confidence in kusala! -------- > > A: In fact it seems to me that at the begining strong desire is a > must to "go against the stream" and only when a new habit is > formed, one can let go of desire and let it all naturally unfold. ------- N: It only depends on pa~n~naa. Lokuttara pa~n~naa can eradicate desire. ----- Nina. #108672 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail farrellkevin80 Hi Nina, all, Nina: Kevin, where in the Vinaya can I find your quoted texts, so that I can compare? I have all volumes here in hardcover, translated by Horner. Nina. Kevin: Nina, I copied it from a weblong, which I am having a little trouble finding right now. I am going to keep searching. I think it had a link to what part of the Vinaya it was taken from. I will find it for you. Be well, Kevin =) #108673 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:32 am Subject: Letters from Nina. The problem of Fear (part 1). nilovg Dear friends, The Problem of Fear. Question : What is the characteristic of fear and how can it be overcome? I have fear of old age, sickness and death. I fear sickness and death of those who are dear to me. I have many kinds of fears. I also fear an unhappy rebirth. So long as one is not a sotapanna (streamwinner, the person who has attained the first stage of enlightenment), one may be reborn in an unhappy plane where there is no opportunity to develop satipatthana. The good deeds one performs in this life are no guarantee for a happy rebirth. A bad deed performed even in a past life may condition an unhappy rebirth. Answer : Unwholesome fear is a form of dosa, aversion. When dosa arises we do not like the object which is experienced at that moment. There are many forms of dosa. It may be a slight aversion or it may be hate, or it may take the form of fear or dread. When there is fear we shrink back from the object and would like to flee from it, or we may think with worry and dread about an unpleasant event which may happen in the future, such as old age, sickness and death, or an unhappy rebirth. Fear arises so long as there are still conditions for its arising. It cannot be eradicated at once, only the anagami (non-returner, the person who has attained the third stage of enlightenment) has eradicated it completely. The development of right understanding is the only way leading to the eradication of fear. When fear arises it should be seen as it is: only a conditioned reality, not self. Fear is conditioned by ignorance and by clinging. We cling to all the pleasant objects and we have fear to lose them. We read in the 'Gradual Sayings' (Book of the Sixes, Ch III, par.3, Fear) about different names given to sense-desires, in order to show their dangers. One of these names is fear. We read: ...And wherefore, monks, is fear a name for sense-desires? Monks, impassioned by sensuous passions, bound by passionate desire, neither in this world is one free from fear, not in the next world is one free from fear. Therefore 'fear' is a name for sense-desires.... In order to develop right understanding there should be awareness of any reality which appears and we should not reject anything as object of awareness. When fear appears it can be object of awareness. --------- Nina. #108674 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail nilovg Dear Kevin, Thank you, I find the whole question rather difficult. Nina. Op 26-jul-2010, om 5:21 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > I think it had a link to what > part of the Vinaya it was taken from. I will find it for you. #108675 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:40 am Subject: [dsg] Lukas' questions to Ajahn Sujin, part 6. nilovg Dear Lukas, Lukas' questions, Part 6. L: "Can you remind us more about citta now?" ------------ Kh S: Naama is not easy to understand. One tries to have it as if it were like ruupa. At this moment it performs its function, for example, the function of seeing. Citta experiences an object all the time, it arises also when we do not think of a specific object, such as the object of seeing or hearing. Sound is known by citta, the naama which hears it. Naama is that which experiences an object. When we are thinking, the characteristic of naama may appear and pa~n~naa or manaasikaara attends to the characteristic of naama. At that moment we do not mind what the object is of the citta which thinks. ------------ Jon: Many people feel that akusala is a hindrance to sati. ----------- Kh S: Pa~n~naa can understand that as just a reality, no matter what kind of akusala it is. It is real, it arises and falls away. It can be object of understanding. When there is the idea of self, it is not understood, one does not want it to appear. --------- L: There is much thinking about realities, not yet the realization of the truth. Kh S: There is still the idea of self who knows what is kusala. It is not known that kusala is not self, just a reality. N: How can we realize that kusala is just a reality? Kh S: By being aware on and on, with understanding of whatever arises, not trying to be aware.... Intellectual understanding will condition understanding of what appears as just a reality. That is why we need to learn more about realities, so that pa~n ~naa can understand what appears as just a reality. Trying to have more sati is wrong. Forget about sati. Whenever there is pa~n~naa there is also sati. In that way attachment to sati can be eliminated. -------- Nina. #108676 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:38 am Subject: Re: This is my song to the defilements jonoabb Hi Kevin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > This is my song to the Defiliments. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YE594zlUns I listened, but I'm afraid I didn't get it. Would you mind explaining a little? Thanks. Jon #108677 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Confusion - awareness of 4 elements within one's body sarahprocter... Dear Andrew, A belated welcome from me as well! I wrote quite a detailed answer to your good qus some hours ago, but it hasn't appeared on the list. I think I may have lost it, but see that Alex and Nina have since replied as well. Anyway, look forward to more of your good discussions and qus. You may also like to look at a section in "useful posts" in the files on "anatta - no control?". Do you study law in London? I'm also from England, but have lived overseas for a long while now, mostly in Hong Kong, with Jon, another lawyer! I'll just try to repeat the first part of my answer to your first qu below after signing off. Metta Sarah --- On Sun, 25/7/10, lawstu_uk wrote: >I understand everything is conditioned and Dhamma occurs naturally. >But does this mean one cannot decide to perform good deeds or bad deeds? .... S: It means that when we think we decide to do anything, in fact there are just mental and physical phenomena performing their functions, conditioned in many ways. Reflecting on this aspect, understanding more about dhammas as anatta, is a condition for detachment, rather than attachment. Understanding more about the various phenomena in our life leads to a greater appreciation of what good mind-states and deeds are and a growing understanding of the danger of bad mind-states and deeds. I won't say more as my other reply may still show up!. #108678 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:00 am Subject: Re: Confusion - awareness of 4 elements within one's body jonoabb Hi Alex I was sorry to read about your health problems. I hope they are on the improve. Just butting in with a comment or two on your post to Andrew, if I may. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Andrew, all, > > >Andrew: I understand everything is conditioned and Dhamma occurs >naturally. But does this mean one cannot decide to perform good >deeds or bad deeds? > > Just because everything is conditioned it doesn't mean that it doesn't occur. Swimming is fully conditioned, yet it occurs. > =============== To my understanding, the Buddha spoke about dhammas being conditioned, but not about conventional ideas such as swimming (or walking) being conditioned. > =============== > >Andrew: Did Buddha or other wise encourage people to perform good >deeds? > > Yes He did and often. > ============== As I see it, the Buddha encouraged the development of kusala, of whatever kind (this of course would include the performance of "good deeds"). > =============== > "Monks, I have known two qualities through experience: discontent with regard to skillful qualities[1] and unrelenting exertion... > > You are correct that all things are not-self. But anatta doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, and neither does it mean that effort is not needed. > =============== It is only dhammas that are declared by the Buddha to be "not-self". As far as I know, the Buddha did not describe conventional objects as being not-self. Jon #108679 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro nidive Hi Fabian, > That is not what I'm asking you, I just ask you very simple question: how do you know the air is going in or going out? (ana-pana)? By focusing your attention on the tactile sensations caused by the air that passes through the nostrils. I know the air is going in because I am aware that I am breathing in. I know the air is going out because I am aware that I am breathing out. > just a little comment to your experience, nimitta arises doesn't necessarily Jhana, your experience is not Jhana bro. A person who has achieved Jhana can feel the five factors of Jhana ( vitakka, vicara....etc). You caught by surprised it means your experience in nimitta is not yet mature, just in the beginning stage of upacara Samadhi. Still you have to practice until the nimitta stable and not dissapeared. I am not saying I have entered the first jhana. I am sorry if I gave you that impression. But your advice is very sound as Ajahn Brahmavamso says that too. Swee Boon #108680 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:30 pm Subject: Re: Mahasi nidive Hi Fabian, > I am waiting his answer. > > So I can continue further to guide him to point out where his mistake, by making such harsh remarks on Noble Person and great learned like Mahasi Sayadaw. his remark is contemptuous. It is improper to say that. It is only harsh to small-minded persons like you. You should learn from Nina. She's so calm when faced with harsh, unwelcoming speech. I face harsh speech from my superior at work almost everyday. Shouting at you, vulgar words ... what are these, but passing mental states with some painful mental feelings that is forgotten the next few days. Swee Boon #108681 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:01 pm Subject: Re: why past teaching didn't last long szmicio Dear Alex, > To the question of why past dhamma didn't last long the two major replies are: > > 1) It was forgotten over time. Monks didn't compile and save the teaching by reciting it for generations like it has happened under this Buddha. So after couple of generations the teaching was forgotten. > 2) People started to add their own opinions and commentaries. As the result the teaching got diluted and for practical reasons "drowned". L:The commentaries was constituted out of compassion, so the people can understand better. > According to DN29 it is crucial that both the letter (attho) and the meaning (byañjana) to be preserved. Some perhaps had a brilliant thought that their commentaries can be equal to the Buddha's teaching... Wrong idea. L:No one said this. Even commentators, they always start with deep homage to the Blessed One. They are not equal to the Buddha teachings, but they explained Buddhadhamma in detailed way. Without commentaries the meaing and the letter couldnt be know now. >A:Only the Buddha knows the Best. L:Of course >A:No one can equal Him. L: Of course >A: Even the Arahant of such caliber as Ven. Sariputta could underestimate the listener and give inappropriate teaching and as a result be less than ideal. See MN97 Dhananjani Sutta for example. An aryan can teach the Dhamma, but it may be possible that the teaching is either inappropriate or not-ideally expressed. Due to expression being "less than ideal" (Only Buddha was the best) it could be misconstrued by the listener. Also as simsipa leaves simile tells us, not all information (no matter how true) may be useful. A lot of information isn't useful as the Buddha has said in SN 56.31. But extra information *could* be misinterpreted and in that sense be harmful for the undiscerning. L: All detailed explanations help better and better to understand 4 Noble Truths, all that doesnt consider 4 NT is meaningless. The point is that Theravada is a huge tradition, and even the 3 pitakas are the most valuable teachings, the commentaries constitute the whole tradition. We cannot try to find out the meaning of Sutta, Vinaya and Abhidhama without commentaries. We get lost. Best wishes Lukas #108682 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Confusion - awareness of 4 elements within one's body ashkenn2k Dear Andrew > >I understand everything is conditioned and Dhamma occurs naturally.\ KO:? only conditioned dhammas are condition and dhamma dont occur naturally.? They occur because of causes and conditions.? They could occur due to prompting or spontaneously but never naturally.? It must have an appropriate cause for it to arise.? If it is natural, then there is no salvation. >But does this mean one cannot decide to perform good deeds or bad deeds? KO:? Dhamma could decide and choose, it is the?kusala and akusala?that arise with thinking that one decides.??Whoever said choice is lobha, does not understand dhamma very clearly.?? They attribute choice with lobha, if choice is lobha, then panna would not have arise and decides to read dhamma book or listen to dhamma and join dhamma discussion.? they are action and choice made by dhammas > >If we say whether one performs good deeds or bad deeds are conditioned, then are > >we justifying bad deeds and discourage good deeds in a way? KO:? that is deterministic.? Dhamma will decide on its actions. > >Did Buddha or other wise encourage people to perform good deeds? > KO:? yes >Another confusing is that reading Dhamma is one thing and applying it in daily >life is another -- what makes 'someone' apply it in daily life? KO:? reading is to strengthen one understanding of the dhamma.? Reading is also applying dhamma in daily life because reading is an act conditioned by dhamma.? Practising is understanding dhamma in our daily lifes, its nature, its characteristics, through this, one understand that there is no self involved.? Dhamma arise because of appropriate cause and conditions. >What I am trying to ask is that someone can read Dhamma, but he/she takes Dhamma > >as intellectual theorising. Yet another person can study Dhamma and applies it >in daily life. KO:? what other do does not matter, what matter is do you apply it > > >In a way I understand Dhamma cannot be forced. Like Ajahn Naeb said, any >intentional posture is rooted in a belief in 'self' and greed. Yet in the >suttas, we read ordained monks/nuns performed walking meditation. KO:? that depends, because body intimation can arise with lobha or panna.? For those who seek jhanas as an escape or believe it is eternal life, that is lobha.? For the past monks and nuns who have high comprehension of dhamma, great mindfulness, accomplished virtue, the intentional posture is used for development of?jhanas and then used it as a basis of insight >I am sure I am not the first one who gets confused and certainly won't be the >last one -- so if anyone knows any past discussions on this confusion, please >let me know. KO: it will take a while to understand,???cheers Ken O #108683 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: This is my song to the defilements farrellkevin80 Hi Jon, Jon wrote: I listened, but I'm afraid I didn't get it. Would you mind explaining a little? Thanks. Jon Kevin: Yes. Jon. The defilements are like evil-doers and those are the evil doers which I would like to see.blown of the face of the earth, destroyed, crushed, never to arise again. Think of it as an ode to wisdom, wisdom which is not-self. The song was sung by Mark Levin. I am a big fan of his. It is probably not a great introduction to him if you aren't familiar with him. He has a three hour radio show every weeknight which is syndicated nationally here in the States. He is also a Constitutional lawyer and has a law firm that is involved in political issues, which he runs. So he works a lot, and sometimes he blows off a little steam like this on his radio show. Most of his show has tons of substance and content, but he like to have a little fun every now and again too. The song is originally in reference to terrorists, however, I don't believe Mark is an advocate of Wilsonian Globalism, the sad idea basically started by Franklin Roosevelt and named after Woodrow Wilson that the US should go out, beat up other people they find themselves in situations with, and turn them into democracies. Most Americans don't ascribe to that idea. Most people who dislike America, dislike Wilsonian Globalism, but not the American ideas of government. He doesn't like war. At the same time, he believes in supporting the troops overseas, who are simply trying to make a living and do the right thing by their country the best way they know how. Those people do not make the policies, nor do they know how or why they will have to fight when they sign up. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# ___________ #108684 From: A T Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:55 pm Subject: Re: why past teaching didn't last long truth_aerator Dear Lukas, all interested, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L:The commentaries was constituted out of compassion, so the people >can understand better. I didn't argue otherwise. They could have been compiled by well meaning monks, no problem with *this*. The problem that I see is that the commentators are never as good as the Buddha. I find it heretical to believe that someone can explain Dhamma as good or even better than the Buddha. If the Buddha taught in certain manner, He probably knew the reason behind it. To think that anyone can improve on his message, expression or teaching style is heretical IMHO. Also I do not think that one should disregard the message in DN16 which says that no matter what any Thera or group of Thera's say: one should check it against sutta&vinaya. After the Buddha was gone, there isn't anyone who can verify like the Buddha the validity of the teaching. Even during the Buddha's time the great of the great disciples like Ven. Sariputta weren't always perfect in delivery of discourse (MN97 comes to mind). Nothing to say about people living after them. Again, Maybe the Buddha knew the reason for delivery of suttas in such and such a manner. I do not think anyone is as wise as Him in that regard. What could be irrelevant He didn't teach, and since He is the Buddha - he knew quite well what it was. Maybe one needs to fill in details oneself and maybe extra detail is simply not needed? Quantity doesn't equal quality. I find it heretical to believe that Buddha didn't teach well enough and some later monks would improve His Dhamma. IMHO. With metta, Alex #108685 From: A T Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness of 4 elements within one's body truth_aerator Dear Nina, Jon, Andrew, all, > N: The word intention in conventional language it is not so >precise, >it does not tell us about intention from moment to >moment. I've meant cetana-. In some cases it could be determination (adhit.t.ha-na), energy (viriya) and will (chanda). I've never argued that one can control it. Of course one cannot control them. However, they DO happen. Just because they are anatta, it doesn't mean that they never happen. Also as you well know, adhit.t.ha-na, viriya, and will, are Pakinnaka cetasikas, and cetana that is common to all states). They can go either way, be kusala or akusala. They are not unwholesome or delusional in and of themselves. >N: We should know whether at this moment it is kusala or akusala and >this is not easy. We have to investigate the citta of the present >moment, Right! Reading about them and being aware of them are different things all together. One can never really know the taste of something by reading the ingredient list. > ------- > N: Yes and Howard gave the example of putting one's hand above the > fire. Very coarsely we may think that we can regulate cittas of >the future, but when we are more precise, considering different >cittas, we cannot know nor do anything. Well we could say that the decision to "get warmer by putting on more cloth in this cold weather" or "this floor is dirty, I need to vacuum it to make it cleaner" is conditioned and anatta. But it does happen. IMHO one of the requirements to be aware of the present moment is to actually do it, and do it with right view of course. Studying the theory is a required first step so that one knows what to look for, but it is a start and never the end. Actual application is required. This requires wholesome decision, desire and resolution. Without intention one will not lift a finger, nothing about developing the path that is hard and goes "against the stream". However I believe it is prudent not to push philosophy too far/ >Jon: To my understanding, the Buddha spoke about dhammas being >conditioned, but not about conventional ideas such as swimming (or >walking) being conditioned. All things are anatta. This includes concepts (which are just a whole lot of sanna). Swimming is conditioned as any other activity. Conventionally it does occur, and there are even competitions as to who can swim better. Of course if one looks for a pin in a haystack where there isn't a pin to start with - one will not find it. In the same way to deny conventional reality by not looking at it is similar to looking for the pin that is not found there. Analysis is as much mental construction as synthesis. A dhamma never occurs in isolation. "Whole" (such as a concept) is as much a concept as "Part" is. Of course some kinds of contemplations are useful for counteracting hindrances. Example teachings like: "If one is angry with someone (ex-wife, ex-husband, co-worker, boss, anyone), consider this: With what am I angry with? Am I angry at his/her head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh? " also replace anger with "lust" to have another type of contemplation. ======= These teachings are not to constantly hold onto like a raft but to swim to the other shore. Dhamma teachings serve a practical purposes of realizing Nibba-na (cessation of Dukkha) and not as philosophical teachings. I believe the suttas that Nibba-na (cessation) is the highest truth. Not talking about static non-existence of the worldly Philosophers. "Monk, this is the highest noble truth (paramam. ariyasaccam.), namely nibba-na. Etañhi, bhikkhu, paramam. ariyasaccam. yadidam. – amosadhammam. nibba-nam.. M III 245, Dha-tuvibhan.gasutta. “Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them (yo nam. passati yoniso), they're empty, void (Rittakam. tucchakam. hoti) to whoever sees them appropriately.” – SN22.95 In my understanding of the suttas The name & form (na-maru-pa) is deceptive by nature – it is not ultimate truth. It is mosadhamma, deceptive by nature while only Nibba-na is Amosadhamma. - Snp 3.12 ============ For some reason the messages do not go through. Please disregard the duplicate of this post if it appears. This version is longer anyways. With metta, Alex #108686 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:18 pm Subject: Re: Mahasi chandrafabian Dear Swee Boon, From your story now I know your real nature. Back to discussion, you have not answer my question Swee Boon, let me copy paste again my question for reminder: Dear Swee Boon, Only few people understand, it is impossible to practice Vipassana while you are in Jhana. Visuddhi Magga explain this clearly, he should emerge from Jhana, so it means you must exit of Jhana, and then should use the strong concentration after achieving Jhana to practice Vipassana by observing nama-rupa. And this statement also explain what is the meaning of using "fourth Jhana as the basis". It means you attain fourth Jhana first and then exit. So it is not as simple as it seems to learn Sutta, you must learn from people who has experienced in practice and really understand how to practice. Now I asked you again, where is the referrence saying, "you NEED TO attain Samatha Jhanas to practice higher fruits? As far as I know Sutta always say, "THERE IS THE CASE" never say, "NEED TO or HAVE TO". mettacittena, fabian =================================================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Swee Boon" wrote: > > Hi Fabian, > > > I am waiting his answer. > > > > So I can continue further to guide him to point out where his mistake, by making such harsh remarks on Noble Person and great learned like Mahasi Sayadaw. his remark is contemptuous. It is improper to say that. > > It is only harsh to small-minded persons like you. > > You should learn from Nina. She's so calm when faced with harsh, unwelcoming speech. > > I face harsh speech from my superior at work almost everyday. Shouting at you, vulgar words ... what are these, but passing mental states with some painful mental feelings that is forgotten the next few days. > > Swee Boon > #108688 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:16 pm Subject: Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > <. . .> > > In my opinnion the > characteristic of reality is only the object of understanding. > > sabbe dhamma anatta, anatta according to Dispeller of delussion means > empty. > -------------------------------------------------- > Yes, empty of essence, independence, own-being, self-existence. > ------------------------------------------------- > > So each dhamma is empty , without essence in it. But there is > characteristic of it, sabhava, thus they can be understood by panna. > --------------------------------------------------- > Mere fleeting qualities, all of them, to be known as such by wisdom. > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > I write this because I read few articles on 'dhammas exist' in theravada > viewpoint. But none of commentaries I came across give any statement that > dhammas exist. The only think I come across is that each dhamma has the > characteristic that can be an object to understanding. > ------------------------------------------------------ > I think you are very close to a perfect emptiness perspective, Lukas! ------------------------------------------------------- Hi Lukas and Howard, I hope I am not being rude in pointing this out, but it would be easier to understand what Howard is saying here if we remembered his overall perspective. Correct me if I am wrong, Howard, but I think you believe that there is ultimately only nibbana, and that the conditioned world is just a misunderstanding - just an incorrect way of seeing nibbana. According to such a theory, anything that was impermanent or suffering would not really exist. The actual qualities (impermanence and suffering) themselves would not really exist. Ken H #108689 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Lukas) - In a message dated 7/26/2010 4:46:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Lukas and Howard, I hope I am not being rude in pointing this out, but it would be easier to understand what Howard is saying here if we remembered his overall perspective. Correct me if I am wrong, Howard, but I think you believe that there is ultimately only nibbana, and that the conditioned world is just a misunderstanding - just an incorrect way of seeing nibbana. ------------------------------------------------- That's basically my view. It is also the perspective laid out by the Buddha in some suttas, it seems to me. ------------------------------------------------ According to such a theory, anything that was impermanent or suffering would not really exist. The actual qualities (impermanence and suffering) themselves would not really exist. -------------------------------------------------- What I do not credit as being a "reality" is any alleged *separate* thing. I do, however, believe in an ebb and flow of qualities that we conventionally separate off and speak of *as if* they independent realities. I believe that when we take that "separate reality" business seriously, we are in error. ------------------------------------------------ Ken H =============================== With metta, Howard The Real /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ (From the Potaliya Sutta) #108690 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro chandrafabian Dear Swee Boon, Good answer... You gain concentration by observing the tactile sensations caused by the air through the nostrils right? The mind grows unified and centered. And that is the same way observing the tactile sensations caused by the movement of the abdomen would cause the mind grows unified and centered. Focusing your attention on tactile sensations on your nostril OR your abdomen is called KAYANUPASSANA SATIPATTHANA. Now, you read from Ajahn Brahm's book that he recommend people to achieved Jhana through meditation on Anapasati right? I agree, you agree, everyone in the list agree with him. But.... you know what? Anapanasati Sutta didn't mention Jhana at all. What is this means? Is Ajahn Brahm wrong? Or The Sutta was wrong? So becareful don't make comments on something you don't really understand. Even Sutta and Abhidhamma mention about direct Vipassana. Mettacittena, fabian --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Swee Boon" wrote: > > Hi Fabian, > > > That is not what I'm asking you, I just ask you very simple question: how do you know the air is going in or going out? (ana-pana)? > > By focusing your attention on the tactile sensations caused by the air that passes through the nostrils. I know the air is going in because I am aware that I am breathing in. I know the air is going out because I am aware that I am breathing out. > > > just a little comment to your experience, nimitta arises doesn't necessarily Jhana, your experience is not Jhana bro. A person who has achieved Jhana can feel the five factors of Jhana ( vitakka, vicara....etc). You caught by surprised it means your experience in nimitta is not yet mature, just in the beginning stage of upacara Samadhi. Still you have to practice until the nimitta stable and not dissapeared. > > I am not saying I have entered the first jhana. I am sorry if I gave you that impression. But your advice is very sound as Ajahn Brahmavamso says that too. > > Swee Boon > #108691 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... farrellkevin80 Hi All, Ken: I hope I am not being rude in pointing this out, but it would be easier to understand what Howard is saying here if we remembered his overall perspective. Correct me if I am wrong, Howard, but I think you believe that there is ultimately only nibbana, and that the conditioned world is just a misunderstanding - just an incorrect way of seeing nibbana. ------------------------------------------------- That's basically my view. It is also the perspective laid out by the Buddha in some suttas, it seems to me. ------------------------------------------------ Kevin: It's Mahayana Howard! It has nothing to do with Theravada Dhamma. It is like the two truths view in Mahayana that states that on the conventional level there is suffering and there are people and things but on the ultimate level all is the vast expanse of enlightenment. If nothing really exists except for nibbana then how could there be paramattha dhammas? How could nibbana even be real? How could there be release from conditioned dhammas? Come with me. I will bring you to the Mahayana temple. Go there and stay there. Stay away from here with your corrupted Dhamma and your "opinions". I tell you right now, if this was back in the time of the Buddha, or a little later in India, and I were a monk and you came around my camp with that junk I would kick you in the ass and send you away to go and stay with the naked ascetics or some other such fools. I wouldn't let you stay around my men. I wouldn't even debate you because your views are so ridiculously deluded, I would just kick you in the ass and tell you to "go". Now go on, get out of here. Scram. Kevin #108692 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:30 am Subject: Re: A get-together with Pt, Vince & Nancy! ptaus1 Dear Nina, KenH, Sarah, all, Yes it was great to meet Sarah and Jon. It was a bit weird at first, because I felt I know them well thanks to dsg, and yet this was the first time ever I met them in person. They are much more patient and soft-spoken (and older) than I expected. Yes there were many topics we touched on, though I was mostly asking about samatha since I felt I knew a bit about it. And also Vince and Nancy were there, so meditators were in the majority :) If only KenH was there as well, it might have been an even fight :) But one very interesting thing that stuck with me is something Jon asked me - why is breath considered a kusala object for samatha? That got me stumped, and I don't know the answer. For example, recollection of the Buddha is definitely a kusala object, and so is the recollection of the Dhamma, etc. But breath? Why is breath as an object any different than for example focusing on an apple, or something worse like a crime? I thought about it on my way home (you have to take a half-hour boat-ride to get from their place back to the city - and the sea was rough, and the boat was swaying badly, so it seemed like a good idea to think about the discussion, instead of thinking about the ship sinking and then me having to swim back together with all the sharks, jelly-fish and other dangerous things in the Australian waters :)) so, I think that breath (and kasinas for example) are kusala objects in the way that they allow to see the drawbacks of the 5 senses and attachment to them (akusala), and withdraw to jhana (kusala) where the 5 senses are suspended for a time. Anyway, I realize there are still many things I don't understand when it comes to samatha. Another topic that stuck with me is what we were discussing with Sarah about navattaba, which is in essence the characteristics of a dhamma that has just fallen away. So these are still the characteristics of the same dhamma - and they are experienced because the cittas follow in such a rapid succession. So, in my understanding, it's a bit like when you look at the sun for a moment - then you take your eyes away, but you are still blinded by the sun for some time - it still seems you are seeing light spots, until they fade away a bit later. It should be kind of the same with the characteristics of a dhamma - even though the dhamma has fallen away, the characteristics (as navattaba) are still experienced by the following mind-door process(es), because these cittas have followed in a very close (rapid) succession. And then at some point, the characteristics "fade away" and then the object is a concept from then on. I'm sure I'll come back to this topic with more questions soon. Other interesting topics were why a sotapanna can't transgress the 5 precepts, would he still confuse one nama dhamma with another nama dhamma, Pa-auk Sayadaw's teachings that I'm quite fond of, identifying awareness, health problems that improper meditation can cause, wanting to know things, and many other topics I hope to return to in the future. In general, I found it a bit hard to discuss Dhamma person-to-person because it's hard to express everything clearly without first thinking about it a bit and then typing it out, re-reading, correcting mistakes, etc, like in online communication. On the other hand, it was possible to ask many questions in a short time that would otherwise take us months to go through online. I think next time I go to meet them, I'll go with a big list of questions. Oh, and I will have to stop eating a few days beforehand to make some room for all the snacks that Sarah keeps bringing the whole day :) Best wishes pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Nina, Ken H, Pt & all, > > Yesterday, we were delighted to spend the day with Pt who came over by buses and ferry to join us, Vince and Nancy for a very informal get-together. Next time we hope Ken H and others may be able to join as well. #108693 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Kevin), Thanks for your reply. It would seem that Yahoo is letting your messages straight through, while those of us in Australia have several waiting somewhere in the pipeline. Who knows when this one of mine will turn up, and who knows what will have happened in the meantime - after Kevin's latest howler. In any case, I hope you are still here, and you haven't scrammed. :-) Ken H #108694 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... farrellkevin80 Ken H:In any case, I hope you are still here, and you haven't scrammed. :-) Kevin: Yeah, maybe you should scram too! (just kidding =)) Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# ________________________________ #108695 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: This is my song to the defilements philofillet Hi Kevin I agree that an aggressive, even warrior-like attitude towards the defilements is called for by the Buddha. But I think you need to reflect on harmfulness, despite your claims of ariyan achievment, you don't seem to have a refined (or any real) understanding of the impact of what you post here. First of all, you underestimate the aversion (include the arising of contemptful feelings) that your initial claim would arouse in people. It led to some comments that led to you assigning them to Hell and making harsh statements. More harmful words. You aspire to drive a sports car that is designed by its makers to be driven in a way that is sure to increase death more than mild-mannered cars. By driving that car, even if you drive it carefully, you contribute to an increasing in harmfulness by conditioning behaviour in others, the way an alcohol drinker conditions harmful behaviour (drinking) in others even by implicitly encouraging it if he/she drinks carefully. And now you post a hateful "song" that advocates killing and will be hurtful to some people here. Wow Kevin! I think nobody here will say what I'm saying because there is a tendency to "let things be" amoung Sujinists, (conditions!) but it would be good that someone point out your tendency to behave in ways that indicate a lack of sensitivity to the implicit harmfulness involved. There are great passages in the canon that point at a warrior attitude towards the defilements. By posting that hateful thing instead of those passages, you indicate that there is something wrong with your basic wisdom/common sense! The other day at Dhammawheel, someone posted a question asking for a two-word summary of what Dhamma means to members. I wrote "avoid harming." For me, battling (yes, but without hate) defilement begins with avoiding harmful behavioiur, I believe the development of understanding for worldlings (which your behaviour here indicates you still are) starts with harmlessness. I should stop and ask myself whether I am writing anything here that will be harmful to you or whether it is the 100 degree heat and irritation that is pushing me to do it. I will stop and pause and reflect. Now, there is a wish for your wellbeing behind it. I don't think I have written anything that will be harmful to you. There may be some aversion. It might condition you to lash out with more harsh words. Should I stop? Hmm. It is tricky, isn't it? I'm off to Canada for a few weeks today, no internet at our summer house so I won't be able to respond.Knowing me I wouldn't anyways! That is a harmful behaviour of mine (posting aggressive opinions but refusing to discuss) that I became aware of, so stopped participating here much. Be well! Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > > > Kevin: Yes. Jon. The defilements are like evil-doers and those are the evil > doers which I would like to see.blown of the face of the earth, destroyed, > crushed, never to arise again. Think of it as an ode to wisdom, wisdom which is > not-self. #108696 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:45 am Subject: Common misconception on in & out breathing in Vipassana. chandrafabian Dear Nina and all, I have seen so many people who didn't really understood direct Vipassana (Vipassana yanika) Mahasi method, making comments and statements about this method. Of course a person who did not really understood tend to make erroneous statements. Even experience meditator from other method, often making erroneous statements about this method, out of their ignorance about this method, in consequence spreading misconception among his followers. Center of controversy is on attention to rising and falling of the abdomen, which they said nowhere to be found in Tipitaka. Basic misunderstanding about the practicing method here is rising and falling of the abdomen. It is entirely different with in and out breathing in Samatha technique. Some people who thought Vipassana should be carried out after practicing Jhana first, would easily have misunderstanding. In Vipassana Yanika, in & out breathing and rising-falling of the abdomen, is considered Kayanupassana Satipatthana or contemplation on the body, it is not the same as anapanasati in Samatha. Kayanupassana is one foundation of mindfulness. Here is the difference of in&out breathing as object of samatha and object of Vipassana. In Samatha technique a practitioner try to arouse beautiful minds (sobhana cetasika) to make nimitta appear, and work out to deepen their concentration to achieve brighter, clearer and look very realistic nimitta. Nimitta can be aroused after the practitioner develop some concept of air coming in and coming out of the nostril and continue concentration until the nimitta very strong (very bright white), eventually the practitioner united with nimitta (absorption), Jhana is achieved. In Vipassana, practitioner try to see very clearly the tactile sensations caused by air coming in and out of nostril, nimitta is observed as they really are, and sometimes ignored, the reason is because Vipassana meditator's goal is to see the characteristic of nama-rupa, therefore nimitta is considered obhasa, one of Vipassanaupakilesa. If practitioner's concentration deep enough, they would be able to see the charateristic of the tactile sensations in the nostril. Seeing characteristic would cause insight (nana) arises. arising nana would cause panna arises. May this would help clear up misunderstanding between practitioner of each method. Mettacittena, fabian #108697 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro kenhowardau Hi Fabian and Swee Boon, ---------- <. . .> F: > Good answer... You gain concentration by observing the tactile sensations caused by the air through the nostrils right? The mind grows unified and centered. ----------- That sounds right to me too, *but* we must remember it is *kusala* concentration that is developed in genuine jhana meditation. In modern times, jhana development is frequently attempted by people who don't know the difference between kusala and akusala. And so they develop akusala concentration. Anyone who concentrates on a meditation object when his consciousness is akusala (and that would be most of the time for us ordinary people) is developing akusala concentration. ------------------ F: > And that is the same way observing the tactile sensations caused by the movement of the abdomen would cause the mind grows unified and centered. > Focusing your attention on tactile sensations on your nostril OR your abdomen is called KAYANUPASSANA SATIPATTHANA. ------------------- Is it? I didn't know that, and so I am not sure how it fits in with what I do know. I do know that satipatthana takes a *presently arisen* dhamma as its object. And that means now. In satipatthan there is no waiting for a more suitable, future, time. Ken H #108698 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:46 am Subject: Re: Buddhist Cosmology jonoabb Hi Fabian --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "chandrafabian" wrote: > > Dear All, > > For the last few years I've been comparing maistream physics cosmology and Buddhist cosmology, I've found out the physics cosmology was actually incorrect to say the universe started from bigbang. > > In my opinion bigbang theory is, another creation theory in different form. Would anyone sharing opinion please...? I suppose there are both similarities and differences between the two theories. Of course, scientific theories have nothing to tell us about paramattha dhammas. We should expect there to be some inconsistencies. Jon #108699 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... upasaka_howard Hi, Kevin - In a message dated 7/26/2010 8:33:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, farrellkevin80@... writes: If nothing really exists except for nibbana then how could there be paramattha dhammas? How could nibbana even be real? How could there be release from conditioned dhammas? Come with me. I will bring you to the Mahayana temple. Go there and stay there. Stay away from here with your corrupted Dhamma and your "opinions". I tell you right now, if this was back in the time of the Buddha, or a little later in India, and I were a monk and you came around my camp with that junk I would kick you in the ass and send you away to go and stay with the naked ascetics or some other such fools. I wouldn't let you stay around my men. I wouldn't even debate you because your views are so ridiculously deluded, I would just kick you in the ass and tell you to "go". Now go on, get out of here. Scram. =============================== #1 The suttas I quoted were Pali suttas. # 2 You are incredibly rude and egotistical, and if that were what a stream enterer were, I would want no part of it. What unbelievable arrogance you display. Please do not reply to any future posts of mine. # 3 I sincerely hope that you can learn the value of friendliness and attain even a small degree of humility. With metta, Howard #108700 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: This is my song to the defilements farrellkevin80 Phil, Phil: Hi Kevin, I agree that an aggressive, even warrior-like attitude towards the defilements is called for by the Buddha. Kevin: So then why even write the rest of your post. It comes off as you implying that you know the Buddha said something, but that you know better deep down, frankly. Phil: despite your claims of ariyan achievment, you don't seem to have a refined (or any real) understanding of the impact of what you post here. Kevin: I have more awareness of this than you realize. Sometimes happy words don't stir up what needs to be stirred up. Harsh speech used to bring benefit does not qualify as Wrong Speech. At times I do have wrong speech, but Right Speech is far more than what you think it is, in my opinion, Phil. Phil: First of all, you underestimate the aversion (include the arising of contemptful feelings) that your initial claim would arouse in people. Kevin: Then I am no more guilty than any other individual that made the same truthful proclamation, wether during this dispensation or another. Phil: the aversion (include the arising of contemptful feelings) that your initial claim would arouse in people. It led to some comments that led to you assigning them to Hell and making harsh statements. Kevin: A person called a past Buddha "stupid" because he did not teach the Dhamma the way this person would have liked, and instead taught it His own way instead. There is a good chance that someone might go to hell for that, or suffer some other bad kamma vipaka. It is a Buddha we are talking about. What should I say to this person? Should I tell them that if they don't agree with an Omniscient Buddha that is OK to call that Buddha stupid? Is that what I should say? I am helping this person. Maybe someday they will reflect and see that it was a very bad idea to do what they did and endeavor never to do it again. If I don't tell the truth about the possible result, the person may do it again. Could I be considered their friend then? The situation called for a little harsh speech. Phil: You aspire to drive a sports car that is designed by its makers to be driven in a way that is sure to increase death more than mild-mannered cars. By driving that car, even if you drive it carefully, you contribute to an increasing in harmfulness by conditioning behaviour in others, the way an alcohol drinker conditions harmful behaviour (drinking) in others even by implicitly encouraging it if he/she drinks carefully. Kevin: This is ridiculous Philip. I could just as easily say something crazy like that if you own a home instead of being a wanderer you encourage other people to own homes and thereby encourage them to kill rodents. You criticize me for driving a sports car meanwhile I do not break the five precepts at all. Phil: And now you post a hateful "song" that advocates killing and will be hurtful to some people here. Kevin: If it is hurtful to someone here, I don't care Phil. What is sad is that you don't have a sense of humor when it comes to the song. Phil: By posting that hateful thing instead of those passages, you indicate that there is something wrong with your basic wisdom/common sense! Kevin: No. you are just a foolish person. Even if you don't think I am a sotapanna, if you had some wisdom you would realize that just in case I am a sotapanna, you shouldn't condemn me, judge me, or criticize so strongly. The Buddha did speak about being a warrior. Phil: The other day at Dhammawheel, someone posted a question asking for a two-word summary of what Dhamma means to members. I wrote "avoid harming." For me, battling (yes, but without hate) defilement begins with avoiding harmful behavioiur, I believe the development of understanding for worldlings (which your behaviour here indicates you still are) starts with harmlessness. Kevin: It would be profitable for you to ask me questions, instead of critique, criticize and scold me. Enjoy your trip in Canada. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108701 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... farrellkevin80 Howard: #1 The suttas I quoted were Pali suttas. # 2 You are incredibly rude and egotistical, and if that were what a stream enterer were, I would want no part of it. What unbelievable arrogance you display. Please do not reply to any future posts of mine. # 3 I sincerely hope that you can learn the value of friendliness and attain even a small degree of humility. Kevin: If you don't abandon your views now when will you? They are the same views that will lead you down to the lower realm at the end of this life and the end of many more. The people you convince of them will suffer the same fate. I stand by what I said. You know, this age is almost dark. There are no havens of Right View. This is one of them. But even here, infections wrong views can be seen constantly. I am only trying to help, but you won't learn. You will just create more bad kamma, by conditions. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# ________________________________ From: "upasaka@..." To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 10:10:54 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... Hi, Kevin - In a message dated 7/26/2010 8:33:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, farrellkevin80@... writes: If nothing really exists except for nibbana then how could there be paramattha dhammas? How could nibbana even be real? How could there be release from conditioned dhammas? Come with me. I will bring you to the Mahayana temple. Go there and stay there. Stay away from here with your corrupted Dhamma and your "opinions". I tell you right now, if this was back in the time of the Buddha, or a little later in India, and I were a monk and you came around my camp with that junk I would kick you in the ass and send you away to go and stay with the naked ascetics or some other such fools. I wouldn't let you stay around my men. I wouldn't even debate you because your views are so ridiculously deluded, I would just kick you in the ass and tell you to "go". Now go on, get out of here. Scram. =============================== #1 The suttas I quoted were Pali suttas. # 2 You are incredibly rude and egotistical, and if that were what a stream enterer were, I would want no part of it. What unbelievable arrogance you display. Please do not reply to any future posts of mine. # 3 I sincerely hope that you can learn the value of friendliness and attain even a small degree of humility. With metta, Howard #108702 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... kenhowardau Hi Kevin, One good thing about having you at DSG (and there are several) is there is never a dull moment. :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > > > Ken H:In any case, I hope you are still here, and you haven't scrammed. :-) > > Kevin: Yeah, maybe you should scram too! (just kidding =)) > > #108703 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... farrellkevin80 Hi Howard, Listen, I just wrote to you what is below the next few sentences. What I also want to say is that I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. I did not mean to hurt your feelings. I respect peoeple and I respect you. I just do not respect wrong views. They lead to pain and suffering, not to peace and happiness. I know this because I know the drawbacks of wrong view and I know the benefit of Right View. If you like someone, do you want to see them hurt? People have different approaches. ..... Howard: #1 The suttas I quoted were Pali suttas. # 2 You are incredibly rude and egotistical, and if that were what a stream enterer were, I would want no part of it. What unbelievable arrogance you display. Please do not reply to any future posts of mine. # 3 I sincerely hope that you can learn the value of friendliness and attain even a small degree of humility. Kevin: If you don't abandon your views now when will you? They are the same views that will lead you down to the lower realm at the end of this life and the end of many more. The people you convince of them will suffer the same fate. I stand by what I said. You know, this age is almost dark. There are no havens of Right View. This is one of them. But even here, infections wrong views can be seen constantly. I am only trying to help, but you won't learn. You will just create more bad kamma, by conditions. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108704 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... farrellkevin80 Hi Ken, Kevin: One good thing about having you at DSG (and there are several) is there is never a dull moment. :-) Ken H Kevin: Ken, I knew you would say that! :x With metta, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108705 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... upasaka_howard Dear Ken - In a message dated 7/26/2010 9:37:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard (and Kevin), Thanks for your reply. It would seem that Yahoo is letting your messages straight through, while those of us in Australia have several waiting somewhere in the pipeline. Who knows when this one of mine will turn up, and who knows what will have happened in the meantime - after Kevin's latest howler. In any case, I hope you are still here, and you haven't scrammed. :-) ---------------------------------------------------- Thank you, Ken. You've always been and continue to be a good person and a kind friend. I much appreciate your friendship. --------------------------------------------------- Ken H =================================== With metta, Howard P. S. I'm not planning on scramming. :-) Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #108706 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... ptaus1 Hi Kevin, Lately you seem to be saying that harsh speech is not wrong speech. Perhaps you could supply some textual evidence for this? E.g. I think avoiding harsh/abusive speech is included in the 5 precepts, no? Furthermore, even when admonishing others - the norm seems to be to do it gently rather than harshly - see the second number [3] in the below: ---quote How to admonish another skillfully "O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who desires to admonish another should do so after investigating five conditions in himself and after establishing five other conditions in himself. What are the five conditions which he should investigate in himself? [1] "Am I one who practices purity in bodily action, flawless and untainted...? [2] "Am I one who practices purity in speech, flawless and untainted...? [3] "Is the heart of goodwill, free from malice, established in me towards fellow-farers in the holy life...? [4] "Am I or am I not one who has heard much, who bears in mind what he has heard, who stores up what he has heard? Those teachings which are good alike in their beginning, middle, and ending, proclaiming perfectly the spirit and the letter of the utterly purified holy life ?" have such teachings been much heard by me, borne in mind, practiced in speech, pondered in the heart and rightly penetrated by insight...? [5] "Are the Patimokkhas [rules of conduct for monks and nuns] in full thoroughly learned by heart, well-analyzed with thorough knowledge of their meanings, clearly divided sutta by sutta and known in minute detail by me...? "These five conditions must be investigated in himself. "And what other five conditions must be established in himself? [1] "Do I speak at the right time, or not? [2] "Do I speak of facts, or not? **Kevin, please take note of this bit** [3] "Do I speak gently or harshly? [4] "Do I speak profitable words or not? [5] "Do I speak with a kindly heart, or inwardly malicious? "O bhikkhus, these five conditions are to be investigated in himself and the latter five established in himself by a bhikkhu who desires to admonish another." ----end quote That was from an ATI page with a collection of passages regarding right speech: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/index.html In particular, a few further excerpts that seem most relevant: ---quote "Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing & pleasing to people at large. ---- "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will." ---- "Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to debates such as these ?" 'You understand this doctrine and discipline? I'm the one who understands this doctrine and discipline. How could you understand this doctrine and discipline? You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing rightly. I'm being consistent. You're not. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine; extricate yourself if you can!' ?" he abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue." ---- "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech." ----end quote Anyway, judging by responses, it seems that some of us here are familiar with your discussion style through various online forums over the years and have grown accustomed to mentally editing out your "howlers". But then again, many others aren't that familiar with your discussion style, so some of your posts really come across as rude and unhelpful at times. Please, I'd be really grateful for a bit of self-moderating in line with the above sutta excerpts. Best wishes pt > K: ...Scram. #108707 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... upasaka_howard Hi, Kevin - In a message dated 7/26/2010 10:58:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, farrellkevin80@... writes: Hi Howard, Listen, I just wrote to you what is below the next few sentences. What I also want to say is that I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. I did not mean to hurt your feelings. I respect peoeple and I respect you. I just do not respect wrong views. They lead to pain and suffering, not to peace and happiness. I know this because I know the drawbacks of wrong view and I know the benefit of Right View. If you like someone, do you want to see them hurt? People have different approaches. =================================== Thank you for writing this, Kevin. With metta, Howard #108708 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... farrellkevin80 Hi Pt, Pt: Lately you seem to be saying that harsh speech is not wrong speech. Perhaps you could supply some textual evidence for this? E.g. I think avoiding harsh/abusive speech is included in the 5 precepts, no? Furthermore, even when admonishing others - the norm seems to be to do it gently rather than harshly... Kevin: Hi Pt. I remember clearly Bhikkhu Pesala talking about this on e-sangha years ago and his post left a big impression on me at that time. He cited some texts and I walked away with the impression that harsh speech used to benefit others is not wrong speech. I've searched but am not coming up with the post since e-sangha is down (and probably will be forever). I did some more searching. I have not come up with anything too concrete to support this. However, I have found these following things. There are six kinds of speech: 1. False speech that is not beneficial, and displeasing to others. 2. False speech that is not beneficial, but pleasing to many. 3. Speech that is true, not beneficial, and displeasing to others. 4. Speech that is true, not beneficial, but pleasing to many. 5. Speech that is true and beneficial, though not pleasing to some. 6. Speech that is true, beneficial, and pleasing to many. Kevin: It would seem that speech that is true and beneficial and not pleasing to others is at least one of the six kinds of speech. I do not know if it is Right Speech, but I see it can be beneficial to others. Also, the Buddha was harsh many times. He called foolish people fools repeatedly. He also said this to Ananda: “So, A-nanda, be friendly towards me, not hostile. When I teach Dhamma seeking your welfare, give ear and exert your mind to understand. This will lead to your welfare and happiness for a long time. I shall not treat you as the potter treats the unbaked pot. Repeatedly restraining you, I will speak to you A-nanda. Repeatedly admonishing you, I will speak to you A-nanda. The sound core will stand the test.” (This is copied from another web post by Bhikkhu Pesala and he did not cite the sutta it is from). I think if the speech causes benefit it is OK. Perhaps I will have to look into this further. Thanks for your posts. All the best, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108709 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the ALL actually? chandrafabian Dear Ken O, In my opinion a rock which you can see and feel is real, a rock in our imagination is not real. but a real rock are only construction of arises and passes away of elements, so in my understanding a rock is actually born of perception of construction of elements much like a cart is a perception of construction of its parts. Nevertheless they are real, because we can see and/or feel. Mettacittena, fabian. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Fabian > > There is an important difference between exist in thinking and real. Exist in > thinking because of our misconstruction, or habit or perversion of perception. > This arise of because of not understanding the real nature of dhamma, due to > conceit, lobha and ditthi that arise with moha. > > > For eg, will anyone in 100 years ago knows about iPhone or computer. But they > would know the characteristics of feelings, dosa and adosa. Understanding > dhamma is like learning the scientific table of elements, oxygen and hyrogen > etc. Combine them you get water. These elements are the basic block of the > universe according to the scientist. to Buddhist it is the paramatha dhamma. > > It is craving which is the dhamma that bring us go round in circle. It is moha > a dhamma that blinds us from seeing the real nature of dhamma so we continue to > think tree is real, self is real, our body is real. Tree, self and body are > just mental construct, while thinking it as a tree, body and self is real. > Tree, body and self exist only in thinking but they are not real. The color, > the hardness, the temperature of tree and body are real. > > > cheers > Ken O #108710 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... farrellkevin80 Hello Howard, Howard: Thank you for writing this, Kevin. Kevin: You are welcome, Howard. I do at times, perhaps get a little carried away. Sometimes people don't understand the roots people are born with. People born with a root of dosa can be said to be "hateful" people. This means they have a lot of aggression and aversion. Other people are born with roots that are alobha, amoha, and adosa. Those people can attain jhanas if I remember correctly (I am open to correction here). Even people born with a root of dosa and also have a root of wisdom (amoha). This means, they can be aggressive but can attain the noble paths and fruits. How do you think an Sotapanna that had not yet eradicated lobha and dosa and who is born with a root of dosa might act? With metta, All the best, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930 #108712 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:59 pm Subject: Why the past teaching of Dhamma didn't last long? truth_aerator Hello all interested, To the question of why past dhamma didn't last long the two major replies are 1) It was forgotten. Monks didn't compile and save the teaching by reciting it for generations like it has happened under this Buddha. So after couple of generations the teaching was forgotten. 2) People started to add their own opinions and commentaries. As the result the teaching got diluted and for practical reasons "drowned". According to DN29 it is crucial that both the letter (attho) and the meaning (bya~njana) to be preserved. Also people perhaps thought that their commentaries can be equal to the Buddha's teaching... Wrong idea. Only the Buddha knows the Best. No one can equal Him. ============ ""Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.023.than.html "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.025.than.html "The Teaching (dhammo) and the Discipline (vinayo) should be consulted,' - MN103 ======================================== IMHO With metta, Alex #108713 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... ptaus1 Hi Kevin, > K: However, I have found these following things. > > There are six kinds of speech: > 1. False speech that is not beneficial, and displeasing to others. > 2. False speech that is not beneficial, but pleasing to many. > 3. Speech that is true, not beneficial, and displeasing to others. > 4. Speech that is true, not beneficial, but pleasing to many. > 5. Speech that is true and beneficial, though not pleasing to some. > 6. Speech that is true, beneficial, and pleasing to many. pt: This is described more precisely in MN 58: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.058.than.html ---quote [1] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them. [2] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them. [3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. [4] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them. [5] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them. [6] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings." ----end quote So, although in the third case the Tathagata may speak what is unendearing & disagreeable, the sutta does not says that it means that he speaks it harshly. I experienced something similar on Sunday when Sarah would point out my mistake(s) in understanding samatha, but would do so very gently and patiently. So, even though it's not very pleasing to realize you're wrong, I would nevertheless end up considering what she says, rather than getting angry about it if she was to say it in a harsh manner. > K: Also, the Buddha was harsh many times. He called foolish people fools > repeatedly. pt: I think I disagree here in that the Buddha was harsh. He did call others "foolish man" (and I feel only in very extreme cases), but I don't think that it means that he did it harshly. I.e. it seems much more probable that at the time he acted in accordance with his own advice: [3] "Do I speak gently or harshly? [4] "Do I speak profitable words or not? [5] "Do I speak with a kindly heart, or inwardly malicious?" So, I don't think there was any room for dosa in his mind while he spoke the words "foolish man" and admonished others. > K: He also said this to Ananda: > > “So, A-nanda, be friendly towards me, not hostile. When I teach Dhamma seeking > your welfare, give ear and exert your mind to understand. This will lead to > your welfare and happiness for a long time. I shall not treat you as the potter > treats the unbaked pot. Repeatedly restraining you, I will speak to you A-nanda. > Repeatedly admonishing you, I will speak to you A-nanda. The sound core will > stand the test.” pt: Sure, but you're not the Buddha, so I feel you can't expect others to behave like Ananda. Especially online, where it's so easy to misread the true intent in the words. Even the most gentlest admonishment can be misread as a personal remark/attack, how much more so in case of an admonishment expressed harshly. > K: I think if the speech causes benefit it is OK. Perhaps I will have to look into > this further. pt: Yes, I'd be glad to hear more about this, in particular whether an admonishment presupposes harsh or only gentle speech. Because atm I feel that speech rooted in dosa cannot ever be beneficial to either of the sides. Another interesting sub-topic is what is the "right/proper time to speak" in the first place - because that condition figures in both of the most relevant quotes so far, i.e: --- [3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the *proper time* for saying them. --- and --- [1] "Do I speak at the *right time*, or not? [2] "Do I speak of facts, or not? [3] "Do I speak gently or harshly? ------ Interesting... Best wishes pt #108714 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:15 pm Subject: Re: Mahasi nidive Hi Fabian, > Now I asked you again, where is the referrence saying, "you NEED TO attain Samatha Jhanas to practice higher fruits? > As far as I know Sutta always say, "THERE IS THE CASE" never say, "NEED TO or HAVE TO". In MN 64 which I quoted to you, the Buddha says: > > 7. "There is a path, Aananda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without coming to that path, to that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters - this is not possible. If you could comprehend the above English passage, it's meaning is definitely a "NEED TO" and a "HAVE TO". This is not a situation of "THERE IS THE CASE". I am sorry if you could not comprehend it or you choose not to comprehend it. There is nothing I can do. Swee Boon #108715 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:35 pm Subject: Re: Buddhist Cosmology nidive Hi Fabian, > For the last few years I've been comparing maistream physics cosmology and Buddhist cosmology, I've found out the physics cosmology was actually incorrect to say the universe started from bigbang. > > In my opinion bigbang theory is, another creation theory in different form. Would anyone sharing opinion please...? Oh my dear, why are you speculating on the cosmos? Does that lead to the Goal? Swee Boon #108716 From: "gr8fuldawg2010" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:01 pm Subject: how to.... gr8fuldawg2010 hello group, My name is Ryan and I am new to the group. Looking for some answers. Ok forgive me because I am very new to this whole thing. But Once you see the clinging, attachment and how it leads to suffering how do you stop! I mean for instance. I find that sometimes at night I start clinging and hoping for a God. A God to be there and a heaven. I get super nerovous, and have bad anxiety. I also have a massive fear of death. Which I would say between these two things I am clearly clinging to a God and mostly to life. To God because I want there to be a life after this one! Anyway what I am getting at here is this, among many other things I have started to see what I am clinging to, the only question I have is how do you stop clinging. Maybe It is just this knowledge, maybe thats all I need, maybe this is enough just for me to know.? I don't know but I am just not sure. Is the eightfold path the steps to take to free yourself from each attachment, or is it more broad you follow these to free yourself from all things. I guess what I am getting at here is I get the whole thing I am just not sure how to apply what I am learning. One person I was listening to was saying what you want in your life is what you focus on, so if you want peace focus on peace, love focus on love, but if you want peace love and letting go is this what you focus on? but what if you want full enlightement? Everything buddah teaches where do you start and how (My biggest question is how do you APPLY IT?) Thanks for your patience with me, Happy Living to you all Ryan #108717 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... farrellkevin80 Pt, Pt: This is described more precisely in MN 58: Kevin: Pt, I will certainly review my speech in light of this. Thank you. I wrote a whole bunch of stuff about where I think my accumulations come from, but I left it out, because some people are weak hearted. ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# ________________________________ #108718 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:07 am Subject: Re: how to.... kenhowardau Hi Ryan, The eightfold path is a way that leads to the end of suffering, but there is no traveller on it. So, if you have any hopes of travelling along the path to a place (or to a state of mind) that is better than where you are now, forget them. The Way taught by the Buddha is to understand the present reality. With that right understanding, you don't need anything else: you are a superman. :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gr8fuldawg2010" wrote: > > hello group, > > My name is Ryan and I am new to the group. Looking for some answers. > > Ok forgive me because I am very new to this whole thing. But Once you see the clinging, attachment and how it leads to suffering how do you stop! #108719 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:13 am Subject: Re: Confusion - awareness of 4 elements within one's body kenhowardau Hi Andrew, ----- <. . .> A: > I understand everything is conditioned and Dhamma occurs naturally. > But does this mean one cannot decide to perform good deeds or bad deeds? ----- When you say you understand everything is conditioned, do you know what is meant by "everything"? The meaning given in the suttas for "everything (the universe, the loka)" is "the presently arisen conditioned dhammas." Therefore, all of your Dhamma questions must be asked on that basis. All too often, people insist on asking Dhamma questions on the basis of the conventionally known world. But that will never work; they will never get satisfactory answers that way. ------------------- A: > "does this mean one cannot decide to perform good deeds or bad deeds?" ------------------ I think your question needs to be understood as asking: "Given that there are only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas, in what way can there be the performance of good deeds?" The answer will then be quite straightforward; with a little knowledge of the Abhidhamma we can simply describe a conditioned moment of either dana, sila or bhavana. So, I would say there *is* the performance of good deeds *if* the presently arisen conditioned dahmmas are: mind-door citta: vedana: sanna: the eleven general cetasikas: the twenty-five lofty cetasikas (or twenty-four is there is no panna): and heart-base rupa. You'd have to check the details because my Abhidhamma knowledge is basic at best. :-) Ken H #108720 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness of 4 elements within one's body truth_aerator Dear Nina, Jon, Andrew, all, > N: The word intention in conventional language it is not so >precise, it does not tell us about intention from moment to >moment. I've meant cetana. In some cases it could be determination (adhitthana), energy (viriya) and will (chanda). I've never argued that one can control it. Of course one cannot control them. However, they DO happen. Just because they are anatta, it doesn't mean that they never happen. Also as you well know, adhitthana, viriya, and will, are Pakinnaka cetasikas, and cetana that is common to all states). They can go either way, be kusala or akusala. They are not unwholesome or delusional in and of themselves. >N: We should know whether at this moment it is kusala or akusala and >this is not easy. We have to investigate the citta of the present >moment, Right! Reading about them and being aware of them are different things all together. One can never really know the taste of something by reading the ingredient list. > ------- > N: Yes and Howard gave the example of putting one's hand above the > fire. Very coarsely we may think that we can regulate cittas of >the future, but when we are more precise, considering different >cittas, we cannot know nor do anything. Well we could say that the decision to "get warmer by putting on more cloth in this cold weather" or "this floor is dirty, I need to vaccuum it to make it cleaner" is conditioned and anatta. But it does happen. IMHO one of the requirements to be aware of the present moment is to actually do it, and do it with right view of course. Studying the theory is a required first step so that one knows what to look for, but it is a start and never the end. Actual application is required. This requires wholesome decision, desire and resolution. Without intention one will not lift a finger, nothing about developing the path that is hard and goes "against the stream". However I believe it is prudent not to push philosophy too far/ >Jon: To my understanding, the Buddha spoke about dhammas being >conditioned, but not about conventional ideas such as swimming (or >walking) being conditioned. All things are anatta. This includes concepts (which are just a whole lot of sanna). Swimming is conditioned as any other activity. Conventionally it does occur, and there are even competitions as to who can swim better. Of course if one looks for a pin in a haystack where there isn't a pin to start with - one will not find it. In the same way to deny conventional reality by not looking at it is similar to looking for the pin that is not found there. Analysis is as much mental construction as synthesis. A dhamma never occurs in isolation. "Whole" (such as a concept) is as much a concept as "Part" is. Of course some kinds of contemplations are useful for counteracting hindrances. Example teachings like: "If one is angry with someone (ex-wife, ex-husband, co-worker, boss, anyone), consider this: With what am I angry with? Am I angry at his/her head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh? " also replace anger with "lust" to have another type of contemplation. ======= These teachings are not to constantly hold onto like a raft but to swim to the other shore. Dhamma teachings serve a practical purposes of realizing Nibbana (cessation of Dukkha) and not as philosophical teachings. I believe the suttas that Nibbana (cessation) is the highest truth. Not non-existence. With metta, Alex #108721 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Only Nibbana is Paramattha sacca (Ultimate Truth) kenhowardau Hi Sarah and pt, I was pleased to hear about your pleasant day at Manly Beach. Enjoy the idle chit-chat while you can; there'll be stricter rules next time! :-) > > Sarah > p.s just testing with the following techno issue.... > > Evam. me sutam. ?" ekam. samayam. bhagava- antara- ca ra-jagaham. > Hmm, You've got your work cut out for you there. It came out fine on my computer when it was in the page of expanded messages, but not here in the reply window. And there were the same hieroglyphics in the single-message page, too. But you know more about that than I do. My main reason for posting this message is to see if it will push through the two other messages I posted this morning (about nine hours ago). They seem to have got stuck in the system. Ken H #108722 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:46 am Subject: Re: Confusion - awareness of 4 elements within one's body sarahprocter... Dear Andrew, A very belated welcome to DSG! You ask good and important questions below and these are questions that are helpful for us all to consider further. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lawstu_uk" wrote: > I understand everything is conditioned and Dhamma occurs naturally. > > But does this mean one cannot decide to perform good deeds or bad deeds? .... S: It means that what is taken for 'oneself performing good or bad deeds' are really just different dhammas, different namas and rupas arising and falling away by conditions. Even moments of decision to perform particular kinds of deeds are actually just moments of thinking, various namas, again conditioned. Hearing and discussing more about the value of good deeds and the harm of bad deeds will be a condition for more good deeds in future, through the growth of understanding of that value. .... > If we say whether one performs good deeds or bad deeds are conditioned, then are we justifying bad deeds and discourage good deeds in a way? .... S: No, I'd say the opposite. We're learning to understand dhammas as anatta, not-self, as conditioned elements. This leads to a growth in detachment rather than attachment. We also learn to understand more precisely what exactly is 'good' and what is 'bad'. This will be much more precise than our conventional ideas of good and bad deeds. A lot of what we are used to taking for being 'good' will be seen to actually be rooted in attachment, aversion or ignorance. Through this growth of understanding, there will be less justification of bad deeds and more sincerity. .... > Did Buddha or other wise encourage people to perform good deeds? .... S: Yes, but with an understanding of anatta, with an understanding that in truth, there are no people to do anything, just conditioned dhammas. He taught us to understand all dhammas precisely as they are. .... > Another confusing is that reading Dhamma is one thing and applying it in daily life is another -- what makes 'someone' apply it in daily life? ... S: Again, we're used to thinking in terms of 'someone' applying the teachings, but in fact, after reading and considering the Dhamma, it just depends on various conditions, particularly on different tendencies and inclinations, as to whether any real understanding and growth of various kinds of 'good' develop. .... > What I am trying to ask is that someone can read Dhamma, but he/she takes Dhamma as intellectual theorising. Yet another person can study Dhamma and applies it in daily life. .... S: Just like now - we all read you words, but it depends on our various tendencies as to how we'll think and respond. There is seeing of a visible object now, is it followed by attachment, aversion, ignorance or wisdom? It just depends of our conditioned accumulations. .... > In a way I understand Dhamma cannot be forced. Like Ajahn Naeb said, any intentional posture is rooted in a belief in 'self' and greed. Yet in the suttas, we read ordained monks/nuns performed walking meditation. .... S: It's not the outward action but the intention that matters. Did the monks/nuns walk because they thought that this was the best way to depelop satipatthana or did they understand that sati can arise anytime at all, during any activity and walk up and down to exercise their bodies, just like they ate for healty living? .... > I am sure I am not the first one who gets confused and certainly won't be the last one -- so if anyone knows any past discussions on this confusion, please let me know. .... S: There is a section in "useful posts" in the files on the DSG homepage called "Anatta and control?". I think you'd find all the saved messages there very helpful. Pls feel free to re-quote any or raise further questions. Much appreciated! Btw, are you studying law in London or where? I'm from England myself, but have lived overseas for a long time now, mostly in Hong Kong with Jon who's also a lawyer. Metta Sarah p.s Thx to Nina for encouraging you to raise your qus here! ======== #108723 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Only Nibbana is Paramattha sacca (Ultimate Truth) sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > I was pleased to hear about your pleasant day at Manly Beach. Enjoy the idle chit-chat while you can; there'll be stricter rules next time! :-) .... S: Yes, we needed you to keep us all on the right path! .. > > p.s just testing with the following techno issue.... > > > > Evam. me sutam. ?" ekam. samayam. bhagava- antara- ca ra-jagaham. > > > > Hmm, You've got your work cut out for you there. It came out fine on my computer when it was in the page of expanded messages, but not here in the reply window. And there were the same hieroglyphics in the single-message page, too. .... S: Yes, I was showing Pt what happens if I copy and paste from Tip.org - fine in my yahoo mail, but jumbled on DSG, even though I can revert to unicode to unjumble it. Pt says that on his mac this doesn't happen (but it used to when I used a mac before:-/). .... > > But you know more about that than I do. My main reason for posting this message is to see if it will push through the two other messages I posted this morning (about nine hours ago). They seem to have got stuck in the system. .... S: If it's any consolation, the message of mine to Andrew which has just appeared was sent about 30 hrs ago directly to the website. So some glitch at the moment - a good test of patience! Now, this is bordering on the idle too..... Metta Sarah ====== #108724 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:07 am Subject: [dsg] Lukas' questions to Ajahn Sujin, part 7. nilovg Dear Lukas, Lukas' questions to Ajahn Sujin, part 7. L: Self is so much involved in our daily life. We think about things and people. What is the way which leads to eradiction of wrong view? -------- Kh S: When there is no understanding it is impossible. --------- L : Can pa~n~na arise without hearing Dhamma? ------- N: There are many levels and many kinds of pa~n~naa. But the pa~n~naa that knows the truth of conditioned realities as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa can only be developed after hearing the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha. ----------- Ann: How does one develop pa~n~naa? ------- Kh S: No, it is not ?one? develops. It develops by listening and considering. Does one want to experience directly the arising and falling away of realities or just learn to become detached from clinging to the idea of self? Develop right understanding in order to eradicate clinging to the idea of self. One can be reading and listening just to have right understanding. It has to be right understanding of the reality that appears just now. Visible object appears. Is this not the object that should be understood more clearly? --------- L: Should we know characteristic of each akusala? -------- Kh S: Little by little in a day. N: We cannot know each akusala. Kh S: When there is no direct awareness, all right, what can you do? No one can do anything. Understand that pa~n~naa will grow little by little. Be patient. ---------- L :No one can start to think in the right way. No one can understand if he wants to understand. Instead of kusala there is a lot of akusala. We are talking about developing understanding, but what we call development is just a few conditioned moments which arise on its own conditions. Thinking is conditioned. Sati is conditioned, Right understanding is conditioned. Sila is conditioned. Reading and considering Dhamma is conditioned. We think about ourselves all the day. But it's also conditioned. No one can do anything, there is no self which can change realities. But the notion of "Self" is so strong, it determines all our akusala and we take it for ourselves. Sould we lead normal life? --------- Kh S: Lukas understands the right Path: no one can do anything. He leads his normal life already by conditions. ---------- Nina. #108725 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:11 am Subject: [dsg] Letters from Nina. The problem of Fear (part 2). nilovg Dear friends, The problem of Fear (part 2). We may have theoretical understanding of the fact that we cannot control any reality which arises and that we thus cannot control the rebirth-consciousness of the next life. However, we still may be troubled by fear of rebirth. It is love of 'self' which conditions this fear. We are worried about what will happen to the 'self' after we die and we are afraid that this 'self' will not be successful in the development of insight in the next life. The sotapanna does not worry about what would happen to a self, because he has eradicated belief in a self. Moreover, he has no more conditions for an unhappy rebirth. So long as one is not a sotapanna one clings to a self and there are conditions for an unhappy rebirth. It is understandable that we worry about the possibility of developing right understanding in a next life. However, we should remember that a moment of awareness of a reality is never lost, it conditions the arising of awareness again, later on. Also awareness which arises now is conditioned, it is conditioned by moments of listening to the Dhamma and considering it in the past, even in past lives. Even so awareness which arises now, although it falls away, conditions awareness in the future since it is accumulated. Even if the next birth would be in an unhappy plane, where there is no opportunity to develop insight, there will be following lives again in other planes where the development of insight can continue. Even the Bodhisatta was once reborn in a hell plane, but after that life he was reborn in the human plane where he continued to develop satipatthana. Unwholesome fear, which is a form of dosa, is harmful for mind and body. However, there is also wholesome fear, which is fear of akusala and its consequences. This fear is different from dosa. Each kusala citta is accompanied by the sobhana cetasikas which are hiri, shame of akusala, and ottappa, fear of blame, fear of the consequences of akusala. When these two cetasikas perform their functions, there cannot be akusala citta at that moment. Wholesome fear of the danger of being in the cycle of birth and death can urge us to persevere with the development of insight until all defilements are eradicated. Then there will be no more rebirth. -------- Nina. #108726 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] how to.... nilovg Dear Ryan, Welcome here. I find your remarks and questions useful. Op 27-jul-2010, om 1:01 heeft gr8fuldawg2010 het volgende geschreven: > how do you stop clinging. Maybe It is just this knowledge, maybe > thats all I need, maybe this is enough just for me to know.? I > don't know but I am just not sure. ------- N: Only correct understanding of the conditioned realities of your life as they appear through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind can eventually lead to less clinging, but not immediately. We are born because of ignorance and clinging. We all have the tendency to clinging, and it takes a long, long time to have it decreased. -------- > R: Is the eightfold path the steps to take to free yourself from > each attachment, or is it more broad you follow these to free > yourself from all things. -------- N: The development of the eightfold Path is nothing else but developing understanding of all that appears right now through the sense-doors and the mind. We have to learn that these are realities arising because of their own conditions. That we cannot possess these, that they do not belong to a self who can regulate them. -------- > R: I guess what I am getting at here is I get the whole thing I am > just not sure how to apply what I am learning. One person I was > listening to was saying what you want in your life is what you > focus on, so if you want peace focus on peace, love focus on love, > but if you want peace love and letting go is this what you focus > on? but what if you want full enlightement? Everything buddah > teaches where do you start and how (My biggest question is how do > you APPLY IT?) ------- N: It is very good you ask this question. By reading, listening and discussing these matters there will be conditions for the application of the Dhamma, that is, developing understanding of the realities that appear. Then you will also have more understanding of birth and death. More understanding leads to having less fear. Maybe my letter on the problem of fear can be of help. Nina. #108727 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:01 am Subject: Re: Mahasi chandrafabian Dear Swee Boon, It is good you refer to Mahamalunkhyaputta Sutta, but you should read the whole Sutta, this sutta also confirm direct Vipassana practice, I will quote the part from same Sutta: "Venerable sir, when this is the path and the method for the destruction of the five lower bonds for the sensual world, why does a certain bhikkhu talk of a release of mind and a release through wisdom (panna vimutti)? ?nanda, that is the difference in the maturity of the mental faculties." This Sutta confimrs of attaiment through wisdom. Few years ago a well known monk from Malaysia came to Indonesia, he gave speeches, talking like you, and in his book he even claim the word Vipassana is made known by Mahasi Sayadaw, and nowhere to be found in Sutta. I feel sorry for this monk should say something, he didn't know for sure, but hastily making claims, he is degrading Dhamma and Sasana as a whole. In Yuganaddha Sutta Bhikkhu Ananda mention of many Arahat declare their attainments in one of four ways, here is the Sutta: Yuganadha Sutta On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever ? monk or nun ? declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it ? his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it ? his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it ? his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it ? his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Whoever ? monk or nun ? declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.170.than.html Pali source: Yuganadha Sutta: 20. Eka? samaya? ?yasm? ?nando kosambiya? viharati ghosit?r?me. Tatra kho ?yasm? ?nando bhikkh? ?mantesi; ?vuso bhikkhavoti. ?vusoti kho te bhikkh? ?yasmato ?nandassa paccassosu?. ?yasm? ?nando etadavoca: [PTS Page 157] [\q 157/] yo hi ko ci ?vuso bhikkhu v? bhikkhun? v? mama santike arahattappatti? vy?karoti. Sabbo so cat?hi maggehi, etesa? v? a??atarena. Katamehi cat?hi? Idha ?vuso bhikkhu samathapubba?gama? vipassana? bh?veti. Tassa samathapubba?gama? VIPASSANA? bh?vayato maggo sa?j?yati. So ta? magga? ?sevati bh?veti bahul?karoti. Tassa ta? magga? ?sevato bh?vayato bahul?karoto sa??ojan? pah?yanti. Anusay? vyant?honti. Puna ca para? ?vuso bhikkhu vipassan?pubba?gama? samatha? bh?veti, tassa vipassan?pubba?gama? samatha? bh?vayato maggo sa?j?yati. So ta? magga? ?sevati bh?veti bahul?karoti. Tassa ta? magga? ?sevato bh?vayato bahul?karoto sa??ojan? pah?yanti. Anusay? vyant?honti. Puna ca para? ?vuso bhikkhu samathavipassana? yuganaddha? bh?veti. Tassa SAMATHAVIPASSANA? yuganaddha? bh?vayato maggo sa?j?yati. So ta? magga? ?sevati bh?veti bahul?karoti. Tassa ta? magga? ?sevato bh?vayato bahul?karoto sa??ojan? pah?yanti. Anusay? vyant?honti. Puna ca para? ?vuso bhikkhuno dhammuddhaccaviggah?ta? m?na? hoti. So ?vuso samayo yanta? citta? ajjhatta?yeva santi??hati sannis?dati ekodihoti sam?dhiyati. Tassa maggo sa?j?yati. So ta? magga? ?sevati bh?veti bahul?karoti. Tassa ta? magga? ?sevato bh?vayato bahul?karoto sa??ojan? pah?yanti. Anusay? vyant?honti. Yo hi ko vi ?vuso bhikkhu v? bhikkhun? v? mama santike arahattappatti? vy?karoti, sabbo so imehi cat?hi maggehi, etesa? v? a??ataren?ti. Pa?ipad?vaggo dutiyo. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukk\ anipata/017-patipadavaggo-p.html So next time when you hear a monk making statements, should be careful, sometimes that monk only saying his own opinion, which not necessarily true. Therefore we should be careful to filter out Dhamma speech brought by anyone, and comparing with Dhamma and Vinaya before making conclusion. Mettacittena, fabian --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Swee Boon" wrote: > > Hi Fabian, > > > Now I asked you again, where is the referrence saying, "you NEED TO attain Samatha Jhanas to practice higher fruits? > > As far as I know Sutta always say, "THERE IS THE CASE" never say, "NEED TO or HAVE TO". > > In MN 64 which I quoted to you, the Buddha says: > > > > 7. "There is a path, Aananda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without coming to that path, to that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters - this is not possible. > > If you could comprehend the above English passage, it's meaning is definitely a "NEED TO" and a "HAVE TO". This is not a situation of "THERE IS THE CASE". > > I am sorry if you could not comprehend it or you choose not to comprehend it. There is nothing I can do. > > Swee Boon > #108728 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:24 am Subject: Re: Buddhist Cosmology chandrafabian Dear Swee Boon, May be you should read Satta Suriya Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya, Sattakanipata Mahavagga: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara4/7-sattak\ anipata/007-mahavaggo-e.html and also read Aganna Sutta, Digha Nikaya: http://www.kusala.org/pdf/AggannaSutta.pdf You are criticising The Buddha's discourse. Mettacittena, fabian --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Swee Boon" wrote: > > Hi Fabian, > > > For the last few years I've been comparing maistream physics cosmology and Buddhist cosmology, I've found out the physics cosmology was actually incorrect to say the universe started from bigbang. > > > > In my opinion bigbang theory is, another creation theory in different form. Would anyone sharing opinion please...? > > Oh my dear, why are you speculating on the cosmos? Does that lead to the Goal? > > Swee Boon > #108729 From: "lawstu_uk" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:31 am Subject: Re: Confusion - awareness of 4 elements within one's body lawstu_uk Dear all, I am very grateful for your replies. It'll take me some time to digest this. A special thank you to Sarah for pointing me to the precious file folder of useful posts -- they should keep me busy for a long time! With metta, Andrew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Andrew, > > A very belated welcome to DSG! You ask good and important questions below and these are questions that are helpful for us all to consider further. #108730 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:22 pm Subject: Re: Buddhist Cosmology chandrafabian Dear Jonoabb, Yes of course science does not know Paramattha Dhammas, perhaps we can discuss this in other thread. My way of comparing cosmology on both sides is, to compare observable and acceptable theory, according to physics astronomy and corresponding theory according to Tipitaka. I would be happy to discuss this openly with anyone who is interested in mainstream physics astronomy. In my opinion Buddhist cosmology can help solve some of the problems faced by physics astronomer in explaining disparity between observation and theory. Mettacittena, fabian --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Fabian > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "chandrafabian" wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > > > For the last few years I've been comparing maistream physics cosmology and Buddhist cosmology, I've found out the physics cosmology was actually incorrect to say the universe started from bigbang. > > > > In my opinion bigbang theory is, another creation theory in different form. Would anyone sharing opinion please...? > > I suppose there are both similarities and differences between the two theories. Of course, scientific theories have nothing to tell us about paramattha dhammas. We should expect there to be some inconsistencies. > > Jon > #108731 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:47 pm Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro chandrafabian F: Dear Ken, <. . .> F: > Good answer... You gain concentration by observing the tactile sensations caused by the air through the nostrils right? The mind grows unified and centered. KH: That sounds right to me too, *but* we must remember it is *kusala* concentration that is developed in genuine jhana meditation. ================================================================= F: Dear Ken, I am sorry I don't know what do you mean by genuine Jhana concentration, is there NOT GENUINE Jhana concentration? Could you explain it to me? ================================================================ KH: In modern times, jhana development is frequently attempted by people who don't know the difference between kusala and akusala. And so they develop akusala concentration. Anyone who concentrates on a meditation object when his consciousness is akusala (and that would be most of the time for us ordinary people) is developing akusala concentration. F: Yes, I agree there is kusala and akusala, but how do you know ordinary people developing akusala concentration? I don't think so. In my opinion ordinary people often disturb by akusala thought but that does not mean they are developing akusala concentration. =================================================== F: > And that is the same way observing the tactile sensations caused by the movement of the abdomen would cause the mind grows unified and centered. > Focusing your attention on tactile sensations on your nostril OR your abdomen is called KAYANUPASSANA SATIPATTHANA. KH: Is it? I didn't know that, and so I am not sure how it fits in with what I do know. I do know that satipatthana takes a *presently arisen* dhamma as its object. And that means now. In satipatthan there is no waiting for a more suitable, future, time. Ken H ===================================================== F: I agree Satipatthana takes presently arisen Dhamma as its object, what do you think Ken, if a person observing in and out breathing or rising and falling of the abdomen, did they take presently arisen Dhamma or not? Mettacittena, fabian #108732 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Common misconception on in & out breathing in Vipassana. nilovg Dear Fabian, Op 27-jul-2010, om 2:45 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven: > In Vipassana, practitioner try to see very clearly the tactile > sensations caused by air coming in and out of nostril, nimitta is > observed as they really are, and sometimes ignored, the reason is > because Vipassana meditator's goal is to see the characteristic of > nama-rupa, therefore nimitta is considered obhasa, one of > Vipassanaupakilesa. ------ N: Yes, after the third stage of tender insight there may be clinging to illumination, that is true. It is not the illumination itself but the clinging to it that is vipassanaa kilesa. As to your first sentence, I would like to add something. As I see it, for vipassanaa any object that appears can be the object of mindfulness. At one moment there may be the first application, the next moment feeling, or citta, or dhamma. One does not have to try to see anything at all, such as tactile object, the objects appear already because of their own conditions, and sometimes sati may be aware of one object or other and sometimes there are no conditions for sati. As you also know, there cannot be any rule, since dhammas are anattaa. BTW how is the Bogor group (nanapalo selamat) doing, any contact? Nina. #108733 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A get-together with Pt, Vince & Nancy! nilovg Dear pt, Thank you for your lively report. And the swinging boat, and Sarah's snacks :-)). What an adventure! Op 27-jul-2010, om 3:30 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > so, I think that breath (and kasinas for example) are kusala > objects in the way that they allow to see the drawbacks of the 5 > senses and attachment to them (akusala), and withdraw to jhana > (kusala) where the 5 senses are suspended for a time. Anyway, I > realize there are still many things I don't understand when it > comes to samatha. ------- N: Our life depends on breath but it is only ruupa conditioned by citta. It is very, very subtle and we may take for breath what is not this ruupa conditioned by citta. It is one of the recollections of samatha as you know, and described by the Visuddhimagga. It can also be an object of insight and then it is realized as just a ruupa that appears as hardness, softness, heat, etc. The Visuddhimagga describes the process of those who develop both jhaana and vipassanaa. Since it is so subtle why try to know it, I wonder. ---------- > > pt: Another topic that stuck with me is what we were discussing > with Sarah about navattaba, which is in essence the characteristics > of a dhamma that has just fallen away. So these are still the > characteristics of the same dhamma - and they are experienced > because the cittas follow in such a rapid succession. ------ N: It does not matter that the object has just fallen away. We can verify: can we learn what visible object now is? Hearing now? Sound now? We do not need to think of the rapid succession of cittas, then we would make it all too complicated and we keep on thinking, thinking. -------- > pt: Other interesting topics were why a sotapanna can't transgress > the 5 precepts, would he still confuse one nama dhamma with another > nama dhamma, ------ N: There are only dhammas, no persons in reality. This helps to have more mettaa. Mettaa is with the citta, the mettaacitta. In order to attain enlightenment all the perfections have to be developed, not one should be neglected. The sotaapanna who has realized the four noble Truths keeps the precepts naturally. Hearing an unpleasant sound, this is just conditioned. No person who speaks. Dosa can still arise, but that is just a conditioned dhamma. It cannot motivate harmful deeds. ------- > I think next time I go to meet them, I'll go with a big list of > questions. Oh, and I will have to stop eating a few days beforehand > to make some room for all the snacks that Sarah keeps bringing the > whole day :) ------ N: Why not record the discussion? Was it recorded by Jon? ------ Nina. #108734 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro nidive Hi Fabian, > Good answer... You gain concentration by observing the tactile sensations caused by the air through the nostrils right? The mind grows unified and centered. Not exactly. You gain concentration by calming the mind with repeated observation of the breath such that the mind stays with the breath and is contented with it. It is not so much about the tactile sensations, which is actually very gross. > And that is the same way observing the tactile sensations caused by the movement of the abdomen would cause the mind grows unified and centered. You are extrapolating into something that is not found in the Anapanasati Sutta nor in any other suttas. The abdominal method was not taught by the Buddha. It is unorthodox. It is evil and if practiced leads to hell. > Now, you read from Ajahn Brahm's book that he recommend people to achieved Jhana through meditation on Anapasati right? > I agree, you agree, everyone in the list agree with him. > But.... you know what? Anapanasati Sutta didn't mention Jhana at all. What is this means? Is Ajahn Brahm wrong? Or The Sutta was wrong? It means that you are wrong! Anapanasati Sutta does mention the jhanas. It is included under the factor of Concentration in the Seven Factors to Awakening. And this is how the Buddha defines the Concentration Factor in the Seven Factors to Awakening: ------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#part2-g [6] Any concentration accompanied by directed thoughts & evaluations is concentration as a factor for Awakening. And any concentration unaccompanied by directed thoughts & evaluations is also concentration as a factor for Awakening. Thus this forms the definition of 'concentration as a factor for Awakening,' and it is in this manner that it is two. ------------------- Concentration accompanied by directed thoughts & evaluations refers to the first [samatha] jhana. Concentration unaccompanied by directed thoughts & evaluations refers to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th [samatha] jhanas. You can't fool me, Fabian. I know my suttas well. Also in the Dipa Sutta, the Buddha says: ------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.008.than.html "If a monk should wish: 'May I ? quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities ? enter & remain in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "If a monk should wish: 'May I, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enter & remain in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation ? internal assurance,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "If a monk should wish: 'May I, with the fading of rapture, remain equnimous, mindful, & alert, sense pleasure with the body, and enter & remain in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, "Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding,"' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "If a monk should wish: 'May I, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress ? as with the earlier disappearance of joys & distresses ? enter & remain in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. ------------------- Swee Boon #108735 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:59 pm Subject: Re: Confusion - awareness of 4 elements within one's body truth_aerator Dear KenH, all interested, > Hi Andrew, > All too often, people insist on asking Dhamma questions on the >basis >of the conventionally known world. But that will never work; >they >will never get satisfactory answers that way. The Noble path does start with sila (morality) and it DOES include conventional activities. "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html "A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.177.than.html As you know the progress goes from sila to samadhi to panna. By trying to impatiently bypass the initial steps may make one appear to advance quickly, but all of this is done at unreliable basis. Before you build a roof, you need to build and fortify the walls, and before you build the walls the base needs to be done. You can't build a 3rd floor before building the 1st one... With metta, Alex #108736 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail farrellkevin80 Dear Nina, Nina: Thank you, I find the whole question rather difficult. Nina. Kevin: It is a difficult one. I find the questions very difficult too Nina. The webpage I took it from said the text was from Vinaya, I, Verajakanda and pointed to an online version of the Vinaya, book 1 here: http://www.archive.org/stream/bookofdiscipline10hornuoft/bookofdiscipline10hornu\ oft_djvu.txt Thanks, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108737 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:22 pm Subject: Re: Mahasi nidive Hi Fabian, > It is good you refer to Mahamalunkhyaputta Sutta, but you should read the whole Sutta, this sutta also confirm direct Vipassana practice, I will quote the part from same Sutta: > > "Venerable sir, when this is the path and the method for the destruction of the five lower bonds for the sensual world, why does a certain bhikkhu talk of a release of mind and a release through wisdom (panna vimutti)? ?nanda, that is the difference in the maturity of the mental faculties." > > This Sutta confirms of attaiment through wisdom. I do not know of any arahant who attained to arahantship not through wisdom. As the Buddha said, the difference is in the maturity of the mental faculties and not the difference in the path of practice (which is the attainment of at least the first [samatha] jhana). In my opinion, all arahants are released through wisdom. But an arahant who has attained release through wisdom by attaining to the highest meditative state of the Cessation of Perception & Feeling is termed an arahant who is released through mind. Please do not extrapolate what the Buddha said into something else. There is only one path described in MN 64 and not two like you said. Swee Boon #108738 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:57 pm Subject: Re: Buddhist Cosmology nidive Hi Fabian, > You are criticising The Buddha's discourse. No, I am not. You have jumped the gun. If you are so sure that what the Buddha said of the cosmos is true and correct, why seek the opinion of others? Opinions of the cosmos is just that, opinions. Whatever you ponder about the cosmos whether by yourself or through agreeing with others, that is your speculating. And in the discourses which you pointed out, the emphasis of the Buddha's discourses is not so much about the cosmos, but about the Goal of Nibbana. And it is not the case that you have alluded to the Goal of Nibbana in your original post. Swee Boon #108739 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:02 pm Subject: Makunkyaputta Sutta, Commentarial Question farrellkevin80 Hello, In the Makunkyaputta Sutta the Buddha talks about the path to the destruction of the five lower fetters as having restraint in body, in speech, in mind, and attaining the jhanas and so forth. At the end of the sutta, though, the Buddha states: "Venerable sir, when this is the path and the method for the destruction of the five lower bonds for the sensual world, why does a certain bhikkhu talk of a release of mind and a release through wisdom? Ananda, that is the difference in the maturity of the mental faculties. The Blessed One said that and venerable Ananda delighted in the words of the Blessed One." Is it possible that anyone knows the Commentary for this section of the sutta? Thanks, kevin ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108740 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:02 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Letters from Nina. The problem of Fear (part 2). gr8fuldawg2010 First of all I just want to thank you for your kind words in your response to my post. And for this as well. Nina: We may have theoretical understanding of the fact that we cannot control any reality which arises and that we thus cannot control the rebirth-consciousness of the next life. However, we still may be troubled by fear of rebirth. It is love of 'self' which conditions this fear. We are worried about what will happen to the 'self' after we die and we are afraid that this 'self' will not be successful in the development of insight in the next life. The sotapanna does not worry about what would happen to a self, because he has eradicated belief in a self. Moreover, he has no more conditions for an unhappy rebirth. So long as one is not a sotapanna one clings to a self and there are conditions for an unhappy rebirth. Ryan: This reminds me of something I was thinking about the other night at work. I was thinking about attachment and clinging and suffering. One thing I was thinking about was how we attach ourselves to our feelings. I think the part were you say something about "eradicating belief in self" for instance one would say "I am sad", but that is a totally incorrect statement, the problem with this is that you are not sad you are (for example I will use my name) I am Ryan, now I might feel sad, but I am not sad. Then I began to think how is that I can even feel sad, because I am not feelings, or intellect so how can I really feel anything. However for the sake of making more sense or simply because I know that sometime I might find myself saying this or someone else who may not understand it would at the least be better to say I feel sad then to say I am, because sad is not who I am. just wanted to share Happy Living Ryan #108741 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro chandrafabian Dear Swee Boon, F:: > Good answer... You gain concentration by observing the tactile sensations caused by the air through the nostrils right? The mind grows unified and centered. SB: Not exactly. You gain concentration by calming the mind with repeated observation of the breath such that the mind stays with the breath and is contented with it. It is not so much about the tactile sensations, which is actually very gross. ===================================================================== F: You are practicing samatha. It seems you never practice Vipassana, so your comment is ignorant comment. I experience patibhaga nimitta in anapanasati and experience unifification with that patibhaga nimitta. I know the difference between anapanasati in Samatha and anapanasati in Vipassana. ============================================================= F: > And that is the same way observing the tactile sensations caused by the movement of the abdomen would cause the mind grows unified and centered. SB: You are extrapolating into something that is not found in the Anapanasati Sutta nor in any other suttas. The abdominal method was not taught by the Buddha. It is unorthodox. It is evil and if practiced leads to hell. ============================================================== F: Did you read my posts? Anapanasati is an object of concentration, it can be practice as Samatha object lead to Jhana or Vipassana object as KAYANUPASSANA SATIPATTHANA lead to Insight. Earth object can be differentiated as object of Samatha (kasina) lead to Jhana or object of Vipassana as one of four Mahabhuta (4 great elements). Saying a-Dhamma as Dhamma is evil and lead to hell. Saying Dhamma as a-Dhamma also evil and lead to hell. ================================================================== F: > Now, you read from Ajahn Brahm's book that he recommend people to achieved Jhana through meditation on Anapasati right? > I agree, you agree, everyone in the list agree with him. > But.... you know what? Anapanasati Sutta didn't mention Jhana at all. What is this means? Is Ajahn Brahm wrong? Or The Sutta was wrong? SB: It means that you are wrong! Anapanasati Sutta does mention the jhanas. It is included under the factor of Concentration in the Seven Factors to Awakening. ============================================================== F: Read again, Anapanasati Sutta does not mention Jhana...!!! ================================================================ SB:And this is how the Buddha defines the Concentration Factor in the Seven Factors to Awakening: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#part2-g [6] Any concentration ACCOMPANIED BY DIRECTED THOUGHT & EVALUATION is concentration as a factor for Awakening. And any concentration UNACCOMPANIED BY DIRECTED THOUGHT & EVALUATION is also concentration as a factor for Awakening. Thus this forms the definition of 'concentration as a factor for Awakening,' and it is in this manner THAT IT IS TWO. Concentration accompanied by directed thoughts & evaluations refers to the first [samatha] jhana. Concentration unaccompanied by directed thoughts & evaluations refers to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th [samatha] jhanas. You can't fool me, Fabian. I know my suttas well. ================================================================ F: Read the capital letters, read it carefully.... It is obvious, I'm not agree with Bhante Thanissaro, it's his opinion, his opinion same with your opinion, his opinion only Jhana no other way. Do you know Jhana is not invented by The Buddha? It's been around in India long before prince Sidhattha was born? Jhana is from Brahmanism. I'm not fooling you Swee Boon, it is bad kamma, especially fooling people about Dhamma. You are fooling yourself. ============================================================== SB: Also in the Dipa Sutta, the Buddha says: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.008.than.html "If a monk should wish: 'May I ? quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities ? enter & remain in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "If a monk should wish: 'May I, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enter & remain in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation ? internal assurance,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "If a monk should wish: 'May I, with the fading of rapture, remain equnimous, mindful, & alert, sense pleasure with the body, and enter & remain in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, "Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding,"' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "If a monk should wish: 'May I, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress ? as with the earlier disappearance of joys & distresses ? enter & remain in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. Swee Boon ========================================================= F: Please read again, and ask Bhante Thanissaro if you will, or any other Bhikkhu, my question: Is there any Sutta saying Vipassana SHOULD BE/HAVE TO practiced after achieving Jhana? Yuganaddhana Sutta explain, there are four ways Arahant attain their Arahantship: 1. Vippassana preceded by Samatha 2. Samatha preceded by Vipassana 3. Samatha and Vipassana in tandem 4. Controlling Vipassanaupakilesa. You, Ajahn Brahm, and Ajahn Thanissaro, believe only number 1 correct, other way incorrect right? But I believe this Sutta, all four ways of attaining Magga-Phala, even though I'm not familiar with number 4. Why I accept number 4 even though I'm not familiar? Because I Believe in Tipitaka. Besides Yuganaddha Sutta is in accordance with Abhidhamma. BY THE WAY, DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS CONCENTRATION FOR (WHAT IS THE PURPOSE), IN PRACTICING VIPPASSANA? WHAT IS CONCENTRATION? Mettacittena, fabian #108742 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro truth_aerator Dear Fabian, all, > F: my question: Is there any Sutta saying Vipassana SHOULD BE/HAVE >TO >practiced after achieving Jhana? AN9.36 as an example. "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite ? the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' ... "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then ? through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters[1] ? he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html Please note that "depends on..." seems to imply the requisite of samadhi. Samma-samadhi is part of N8P. N8P is required for stream or higher... The 4 ways to Arhatship ALL include either samadhi or samatha. With metta, Alex #108743 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:40 am Subject: Re: Buddhist Cosmology chandrafabian Dear Swee Boon, ========================================== SB: > Hi Fabian, > > > You are criticising The Buddha's discourse. > No, I am not. You have jumped the gun. > > If you are so sure that what the Buddha said of the cosmos is true and correct, why seek the opinion of others? Opinions of the cosmos is just that, opinions. Whatever you ponder about the cosmos whether by yourself or through agreeing with others, that is your speculating. ================================================== F: You should be learning a descent way of discussing with others, descent way is by listening to their opinion before presenting your own opinion. In this maillist we can discuss anything related to Dhamma. I'm not discussing Astronomy alone, but discussing Astronomy in accordance with Buddha's discourses, which lead to open mindednes and saddha to the omnisciency of The Buddha. SB: > And in the discourses which you pointed out, the emphasis of the Buddha's discourses is not so much about the cosmos, but about the Goal of Nibbana. And it is not the case that you have alluded to the Goal of Nibbana in your original post. > > Swee Boon ================================================== F: learn to read before expressing your opinion, read again both. Do you think one should not speak about cosmology at all? Do you think The Buddha speak something unbeneficial? Mettacittena, fabian #108744 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:38 am Subject: Re: A get-together with Pt, Vince & Nancy! ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your comments. > N: Our life depends on breath but it is only ruupa conditioned by > citta. It is very, very subtle and we may take for breath what is not > this ruupa conditioned by citta. It is one of the recollections of > samatha as you know, and described by the Visuddhimagga. It can also > be an object of insight and then it is realized as just a ruupa that > appears as hardness, softness, heat, etc. The Visuddhimagga describes > the process of those who develop both jhaana and vipassanaa. > Since it is so subtle why try to know it, I wonder. Yes, this was one of the topics - why try to know these things like jhana in the first place. For me, I think I feel the need to understand everything mentioned in the teaching intellectually and then, hopefully, experientially. Though, as Sarah suggested, it's very possible that the major part of this need to know things is fueled by self-view, in the sense of wanting things for myself - more calm, more mindfulness, more achievement, etc. I don't know. I hope that not all of it is wrong-view, but, that need to know is what usually drives me to read and examine the teachings at the moment. > N: Why not record the discussion? Was it recorded by Jon? No, it wasn't recorded - Dhamma discussion was just a part of what we talked about - we also spent a lot of time on technical issues, as well as just general chit-chat that probably wouldn't be very interesting to hear. Hopefully, next time KenH will be there to keep the discussion on track :) Best wishes pt #108745 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Only Nibbana is Paramattha sacca (Ultimate Truth) ptaus1 Hi KenH, > > Evam. me sutam. - ekam. samayam. bhagava- antara- ca ra-jagaham. > > > > It came out fine on my computer when it was in the page of expanded messages, but not here in the reply window. And there were the same hieroglyphics in the single-message page, too. Thanks for checking this - let's try to sort it out. 1. If it came out ok in the expanded view, that means that your computer can handle Unicode without problems. So, if there are problems when you switch to another view (single-message and reply), that probably means tht your browser is automatically switching between different encodings, and doing it badly. 2. One thing you can do to fix this somewhat is to switch-off the encoding auto-detection in your browser. So in Explorer, you'd need to: -click on "View" in the main menu - this will give you a drop-down menu -put your mouse over "Encoding" in the drop-down menu - this will give you another drop-down menu where "Auto-Select" should be the first option available - if there's a tick next to it, that means that your browser is trying to detect encodings automatically, so to disbale it, just click on it and the tick should disappear. -once there's no tick next to "Auto-select", then select (click on) "Unicode (UTF-8)", which should be just below the "Auto-select" option. This will set Unicode as your default character encoding, so there shouldn't be problems anymore when you switch between different views. 3. However, although this might sort out the problem, yahoo also seems to have some sort of in-built encoding detector, and it also doesn't work too well, so it can bring additional problems every time a different page is loaded. So, anytime you have problems with Pali diacritics, it's useful to just go View > Encoding > Unicode (UTF-8) to make sure that your encoding is set to Unicode. 4. If you're still having problems even after that, that probably means that diacritics are not in Unicode originally, or that the encoding has changed (possibly due to automatic detection) from Unicode to some other encoding (like when you want to reply to a message, but your encoding changes automatically when the reply page loads, but you don't notice it, and so you end up typing the reply in some other encoding). Unfortunately, this seems to be a problem with yahoo/browsers that will probably be around for some time to come. 5. To test all this out, best try to do it with the same Sarah's message that you tried originally: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/108653 Best wishes pt #108746 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Common misconception on in & out breathing in Vipassana. chandrafabian Dear Nina, I Agree with you, in Sammasana nana all ten kilesa might arises, due to stronger mindfullness and concentration (correct me if I'm wrong). That is true, while we are mindful of in and out breathing, or rising and falling, another phenomena more dominant might come-up, we have to be aware of them. The way I experienced Vipassana is like goal keeper, waiting and catch the ball if they're coming, or like observer of a game. Likewise in Vipassana we aware everything arises as they really are, we aware as they arises, aware as they matured and aware of their disappearance. Every phenomena arises should be aware of as it is, regardless of our positions (four iriyapatha). If there are several object arises at a time, take one object which we think the most dominant or more urgent to be mindful of. Don't let mindfulness slips away. Doing this over and over would strengthen the mindfulness and concentration. For this last two years, I lose contact with mr. Nanapalo Selamat (may be he is busy), but I still keep in contact with some friends interested in Abhidhamma like Markos Prawira and other friends. But I'm not a member of Bogor group. Mettacittena, fabian Dear Fabian, Op 27-jul-2010, om 2:45 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven: > In Vipassana, practitioner try to see very clearly the tactile > sensations caused by air coming in and out of nostril, nimitta is > observed as they really are, and sometimes ignored, the reason is > because Vipassana meditator's goal is to see the characteristic of > nama-rupa, therefore nimitta is considered obhasa, one of > Vipassanaupakilesa. ------ N: Yes, after the third stage of tender insight there may be clinging to illumination, that is true. It is not the illumination itself but the clinging to it that is vipassanaa kilesa. As to your first sentence, I would like to add something. As I see it, for vipassanaa any object that appears can be the object of mindfulness. At one moment there may be the first application, the next moment feeling, or citta, or dhamma. One does not have to try to see anything at all, such as tactile object, the objects appear already because of their own conditions, and sometimes sati may be aware of one object or other and sometimes there are no conditions for sati. As you also know, there cannot be any rule, since dhammas are anattaa. BTW how is the Bogor group (nanapalo selamat) doing, any contact? Nina #108747 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Only Nibbana is Paramattha sacca (Ultimate Truth) kenhowardau Hi pt, Thank you, I have followed your instructions, which I was able to adapt easily to Mozilla Firefox, and all is well. On all three pages - multiple expanded, single expanded and reply - the test line came out perfectly well (I think). Here it is pasted in: > > Sarah > p.s just testing with the following techno issue.... > > Evaṃ me sutaṃ ? ekaṃ samayaṃ bhagavā antarā ca rājagahaṃ > Oh no! It was fine until I selected "Preview" and then it went back to the old mess. Checking my selections I see Firefox has reverted to Western (ISO-8859-1). Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi KenH, > > > > Evam. me sutam. - ekam. samayam. bhagava- antara- ca ra-jagaham. > > > > > > > It came out fine on my computer when it was in the page of expanded messages, but not here in the reply window. And there were the same hieroglyphics in the single-message page, too. > > > Thanks for checking this - let's try to sort it out. > > 1. If it came out ok in the expanded view, that means that your #108748 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro chandrafabian Dear Alex and all > Dear Fabian, all, > > > F: my question: Is there any Sutta saying Vipassana SHOULD BE/HAVE >TO >practiced after achieving Jhana? > > ALEX : AN9.36 as an example. > > "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite ? the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' > ... > "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then ? through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters[1] ? he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html > Please note that "depends on..." seems to imply the requisite of samadhi. Samma-samadhi is part of N8P. N8P is required for stream or higher... ============================================================= FABIAN: Dear Alex, In my opinion, access to insight translation of Jhana Sutta is a BIAS TRANSLATION. Compare with this translation: ========== JHANASUTTAM Bhikkhus, I say that, SUPPORTED BY, even the first higher state of the mind, there is the destruction of desires. Supported by, even the second higher state of the mind, there is the destruction of desires. Supported by, even the third higher state of the mind, there is the destruction of desires. Supported by, even the fourth higher state of the mind, there is the destruction of desires. Supported by, even the attainment the sphere of space, there is the destruction of desires. Supported by, even the attainment the sphere of consciousness, there is the destruction of desires. Supported by, even the attainment the sphere of no-thingness, there is the destruction of desires. Supported by, even the attainment, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception there is the destruction of desires. Supported by, even the cessation of perceptions and feelings, there is the destruction of desires. Bhikkhus, I said, there is the destruction of desires even supported by the first higher state of the mind. Why did I say so? Here, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu secluding the mind from sensual desires, ... re ... abides in the first higher state of the mind. In that state of mind, whatever thing mattered, was felt, became perceptible, was determined, cognized, he reflects as impermanent, unpleasant, an ailment, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, a sickness, external, decaying, void, lacking a self. He turns the mind away from them, and directs the mind to the element of deathlessness-'This is peaceful and exalted, the appeasement of all determinations, giving up all endearments, destruction of craving, disenchantment, cessation and extinction. Established in it he destroys desires. If he does not destroy desires, with that same greed and interest for the Teaching he destroys the five lower bonds binding him to the sensual world and takes spontaneous birth to extinguish in that same birth, not transmigrating any further. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/09-navak\ anipata/004-mahavaggo-e.html The meaning of Nissaya according to concise Pali English dictionary: [m.] 1. support; 2. protection; 3. that on which anything depends. || nissāya (ind.), by means of; by one's support; near by. The translation of nissaya : support is the most accurate. One can not practice Vipassana while one is absorbed in Jhana. Therefore one have to emerge from Jhana. That is why nissaya is translated as support. This is the Pali source: =========== Jh?nanisasaya sutta? (S?vatthinid?na?) Pa?hamampaha?1 bhikkhave jh?na? niss?ya ?sav?na? khaya? vad?mi. Dutiyampaha?2 bhikkhave jh?na? niss?ya ?sav?na? khaya? vad?mi. Tatiyampaha? bhikkhave jh?na? niss?ya ?sav?na? khaya? vad?mi. Catutthampaha? bhikkhave jh?na? niss?ya ?sav?na? khaya? vad?mi. ?k?s?na?c?yatanampaha? bhikkhave3 niss?ya ?sav?na? khaya? vad?mi. Vi???na?c?yatanampaha? bhikkhave niss?ya ?sav?na? khaya? vad?mi. ?ki?c?yatanampaha? bhikkhave niss?ya ?sav?na? khaya? vad?mi. Nevasa???n?sa???yatanampaha? bhikkhave niss?ya ?sav?na? khaya? vad?mi. Sa???vedayitanirodhampaha? bhikkhave niss?ya ?sav?na? khaya? vad?mi. "Pa?hamampaha? bhikkhave jh?na? niss?ya ?sav?na? khaya? vad?m?" ti iti kho paneta? vutta?, ki?ceta? pa?icca vutta?; Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu vivicceva k?mehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakka? savic?ra? vivekaja? p?tisukha? pa?hama? jh?na? upasampajja viharati. So yadeva tattha hoti r?pagata? vedan?gata? sa???gata? sa?kh?ragata? vi????agata? te dhamme aniccato dukkhato rogato ga??ato sallato aghato ?b?dhato parato palokato su??ato [PTS Page 423] anattato samanupassati. So tehi dhammehi citta? pa?iv?peti4 so tehi dhammehi citta? pa?iv?petv?5 amat?ya dh?tuy? citta? upasa?harati. "Eta? santa? eta? pa??ta? yadida? sabbasa?kh?rasamatho sabb?padhipa?inissaggo ta?hakkhayo vir?go nirodho nibb?na" nti. So tattha ?hito ?sav?na? khaya? p?pu??ti. No ce ?sav?na? khaya? p?pu??ti teneva dhammar?gena t?ya dhammanandiy? pa?canna? orambh?giy?na? sa??ojan?na? parikkhay? opap?tiko hoti tattha parinibb?yi an?vattidhammo tasm? lok? ============================================================ ALEX: > The 4 ways to Arhatship ALL include either samadhi or samatha. > With metta, > > Alex FABIAN: My goodness Alex, did you read Yuganaddha Sutta in Pali together with Yuganaddha Sutta in English? It is written Vipassana and Samatha, not Samadhi and Samatha. Please read again in case you miss. Mettacittena, fabian #108749 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:46 am Subject: Re: Only Nibbana is Paramattha sacca (Ultimate Truth) ptaus1 Hi KenH, > > Evaṃ me sutaṃ ? ekaṃ samayaṃ bhagavā antarā ca rājagahaṃ > > Oh no! It was fine until I selected "Preview" and then it went back to the old mess. > > Checking my selections I see Firefox has reverted to Western (ISO-8859-1). :) Yes, I remember when I was writing that series of posts on encoding awhile back, I did a test on Firefox on pc, and it kept switching to a different encoding even when auto-detect was off. On mac it worked fine. So, I don't know, it might be a clash between Firefox and Yahoo. Perhaps next version of FF will handle it better. Either way - it's good to check the encoding thing often when diacritics are involved. Hopefully yahoo will make Unicode the default encoding some times soon - the default used to be some Western ISO encoding, but now it's some sort of a floating encoding detection as far as I understand. Hence some of the problems. Best wishes pt #108750 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:24 am Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro kenhowardau Hi Fabian, ---- <. . .> KH: > it is *kusala* concentration that is developed in genuine jhana meditation. > > F: > I am sorry I don't know what do you mean by genuine Jhana concentration, is there NOT GENUINE Jhana concentration? ---- Wouldn't you agree there can be genuine and non-genuine jhana meditation? The genuine variety was practised by the people we read about in the ancient texts. I doubt it is practised by many people today. In fact, I doubt there would be more than just a few people today who even know what jhana is. --------- <. . .> KH: > > Anyone who concentrates on a meditation object when his consciousness is akusala (and that would be most of the time for us ordinary people) is developing akusala concentration. > > F: > Yes, I agree there is kusala and akusala, but how do you know ordinary people developing akusala concentration? --------- There are billions of kammically active cittas every second. For us ordinary people, those cittas are nearly all akusala. Even when we think we are doing nothing, there are cittas with attachment or aversion, or just plain ignorance. Moments of kusala are very rare by comparison. -------------------- <. . .> F: > In my opinion ordinary people often disturb by akusala thought but that does not mean they are developing akusala concentration. --------------------- Very few people know when their consciousness is kusala and when it is akusala. This is especially true if they are experiencing mild attachment. The symptoms are virtually identical to non-attachment. (Both are accompanied by either pleasant or neutral feelings.) If a person who is sitting in meditation is mistaking akusala for kusala, he is developing wrong view. He would be causing more harm than good, and he would be well advised to do something different with his time. ----------------- <. . .> F: > I agree Satipatthana takes presently arisen Dhamma as its object, what do you think Ken, if a person observing in and out breathing or rising and falling of the abdomen, did they take presently arisen Dhamma or not? ----------------- At those precise times, definitely "not." At any precise moment when someone is conscious of in-and-out breathing (or of the abdomen etc.) he is conscious of a concept, not of a paramattha dhamma. And so there is no satipatthana at those moments. Speaking less precisely, however, whenever someone is thinking about his breath there will be *intervening* moments when dhammas are experienced. And therefore satipatthana will be possible. The exception is when a meditator has entered one of the jhanas. At those times there are no intervening moments of other types of consciousness, and so there is no possibility of satipatthana. As you were explaining to Swee Boon, a jhana meditator must exit jhana before he can practise satipatthana or vipassana. Ken H #108751 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail nilovg Dear Kevin, Thank you for the reference. Thus far I have not met discrepancies in the commentaries and therefore I am surprised of the quote you gave. It is hard to find its location and seems in contradiction with Horner's translation of the Co to the Buddhavamsa, the Clarifier of Sweet meaning. How correct is this website you mention? I shall go through Vol I, Horner's translation. I do not know about Oldenberg. Thank you anyway. Nina. Op 27-jul-2010, om 17:22 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > It is a difficult one. I find the questions very difficult too Nina. > > The webpage I took it from said the text was from Vinaya, I, > Verajakanda and > pointed to an online version of the Vinaya, book 1 here: > http://www.archive.org/stream/bookofdiscipline10hornuoft/ > bookofdiscipline10hornuoft_djvu.txt #108752 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:07 am Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro chandrafabian Dear Ken, KEN H: Hi Fabian, Wouldn't you agree there can be genuine and non-genuine jhana meditation? The genuine variety was practised by the people we read about in the ancient texts. I doubt it is practised by many people today. In fact, I doubt there would be more than just a few people today who even know what jhana is. FABIAN: Dear Ken, sorry I'm not agree, Jhana meditation Which is practiced by people today, is not different with peoples in the past. ======================================= KEN H: There are billions of kammically active cittas every second. For us ordinary people, those cittas are nearly all akusala. Even when we think we are doing nothing, there are cittas with attachment or aversion, or just plain ignorance. Moments of kusala are very rare by comparison. Very few people know when their consciousness is kusala and when it is akusala. This is especially true if they are experiencing mild attachment. The symptoms are virtually identical to non-attachment. (Both are accompanied by either pleasant or neutral feelings.) If a person who is sitting in meditation is mistaking akusala for kusala, he is developing wrong view. He would be causing more harm than good, and he would be well advised to do something different with his time. FABIAN: As far as I know in meditation we should not thinking, wandering, judging or analyzing the mind, whether it is kusala or akusala. We just note everything as they really are, note as they arises. ===================================================== KEN H: At those precise times, definitely "not." At any precise moment when someone is conscious of in-and-out breathing (or of the abdomen etc.) he is conscious of a concept, not of a paramattha dhamma. And so there is no satipatthana at those moments. Speaking less precisely, however, whenever someone is thinking about his breath there will be *intervening* moments when dhammas are experienced. And therefore satipatthana will be possible. FABIAN: As I told you Satipatthana you should not thinking, you just observe, see everything as they are, not theoryzing, judging or analyzing. ================================================= KEN H: The exception is when a meditator has entered one of the jhanas. At those times there are no intervening moments of other types of consciousness, and so there is no possibility of satipatthana. As you were explaining to Swee Boon, a jhana meditator must exit jhana before he can practise satipatthana or vipassana. Ken H FABIAN: Agreed, in Absorption/Jhana the mind is stilled/freezed. Mettacittena, fabian. #108753 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] how to.... sarahprocter... Hi Ryan, Welcome to DSG! In your introductory message you nicely point to the first 2 Noble Truths - Dukkha and the cause of Dukkha, attachment. Clinging is just clinging, regardless of the object. We always take it for "Me", but really, it's just a very, very common mental state which arises and falls away. I think the application is in the understanding. Instead of trying to "Do" anything with this idea of "Me", gradually some understanding and awareness will begin to develop as a result of your wise considerations and reflections. This is the path of detachment and acceptance, not of trying to "Do" and "Make happen". Where do you live, Ryan? Pls tell us anything else about your background and interest in the Dhamma. Also, if any newcomers would care to put a pic in the Members' Album in DSG, many of us would be glad to see it. Look forward to more discussion later. Metta Sarah ======== >My name is Ryan and I am new to the group. Looking for some answers. Ok forgive me because I am very new to this whole thing. But Once you see the clinging, attachment and how it leads to suffering how do you stop! <...> #108754 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A get-together with Pt, Vince & Nancy! sarahprocter... Dear Pt, --- On Wed, 28/7/10, ptaus1 wrote: >For me, I think I feel the need to understand everything mentioned in the teaching intellectually and then, hopefully, experientially. Though, as Sarah suggested, it's very possible that the major part of this need to know things is fueled by self-view, in the sense of wanting things for myself - more calm, more mindfulness, more achievement, etc. .... S: I think I suggested self-attachment, wanting to be someone with more calm and so on. ... >I don't know. I hope that not all of it is wrong-view, but, that need to know is what usually drives me to read and examine the teachings at the moment. ... S: So many different cittas - only present panna can know, not trying to review past thoughts and actions. So it always comes back to this moment. Now, is there any panna or awareness? Is any reality known now? At this moment, is there wise reflection on the Teachings or a straining to experience certain states? Is there any breath appearing now, or is there visible object, hardness, thinking, like and dislike? Metta Sarah p.s. Just had another little re-organisation of the Dhamma library here, putting some of the books in the living room...:-) ========== #108755 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters from Nina. The problem of Fear (part 2). nilovg Dear Ryan, Op 27-jul-2010, om 15:02 heeft Ryan Brawn het volgende geschreven: > > one would say "I am sad", but that is a totally incorrect > statement, the problem with this is that you are not sad you are > (for example I will use my name) I am Ryan, now I might feel sad, > but I am not sad. Then I began to think how is that I can even feel > sad, because I am not feelings, or intellect so how can I really > feel anything. However for the sake of making more sense or simply > because I know that sometime I might find myself saying this or > someone else who may not understand it would at the least be better > to say I feel sad then to say I am, because sad is not who I am. -------- N: You understood this very well. For communication we can use in speech: I am sad, the Buddha and arahants also did this. Now you see that you can verify the teachings. That is much better than thinking of the future, of death that has not come yet. When investigating the present moment you will have more confidence, less fear. We read in the ?Bhaddekaratta Sutta of Lomasakangiya? (Middle Length Sayings III, no 134) that the Buddha had taught the following verses when he dwelled in the Heaven of the Thirtythree: The past should not be followed after, the future not desired. What is past is got rid of and the future has not come. But whoever has vision now here, now there of a present dhamma, The unmovable, unshakable, let him cultivate it. Swelter at the task this very day. Who knows whether he will die tomorrow? There is no bargaining with the great hosts of Death. Thus abiding ardently, unwearied day and night, He indeed is ?Auspicious? called, described as a sage at peace. ---------- Nina. #108756 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro nidive Hi Fabian, > F: You are practicing samatha. It seems you never practice Vipassana, so your comment is ignorant comment. .Sarcastic Mode On. Oh Holy One, only your comments are wise. I bow down to you, Oh The Wise and Holy One. .Sarcastic Mode Off. > F: Did you read my posts? Anapanasati is an object of concentration, it can be practice as Samatha object lead to Jhana or Vipassana object as KAYANUPASSANA SATIPATTHANA lead to Insight. Anapanasati is such, but the abdomen method is not. Out of the six types of practices taught by the Buddha in DN 22 using the body as the frame of reference, except the first, mindfulness of breathing, all other five requires observation of the whole body. It is only the first, mindfulness of breathing, that does not require observation of the whole body. Whatever your beliefs are, I am sorry to tell you that the Buddha indeed did not teach the Mahasi abdominal method. It is not comparable to the mindfulness of breathing. This fact is independent of what your beliefs are. I stand unwavering by this fact. > F: Read again, Anapanasati Sutta does not mention Jhana...!!! It does, by way of the Seven Factors to Awakening. Whatever your beliefs are, I am sorry to tell you that the Buddha indeed did include the Jhanas in the Anapanasati Sutta by way of the Seven Factors to Awakening. This fact is independent of what your beliefs are. I stand unwavering by this fact. > Do you know Jhana is not invented by The Buddha? It's been around in India long before prince Sidhattha was born? Jhana is from Brahmanism. > I'm not fooling you Swee Boon, it is bad kamma, especially fooling people about Dhamma. You are fooling yourself. The teaching on the Jhanas is the sole province of all Tathagatas. The Jhanas were unknown in India before Gotama was born. Gotama was the first to rediscover the Jhanas by his own humane effort as he himself elucidated in MN 36. Whatever your beliefs are, I am sorry to tell you that the teaching on the Jhanas is the sole province of all Buddhas. This fact is independent of what your beliefs are. I stand unwavering by this fact. Standing unwavering, I am not fooling myself nor am I fooling others. > F: Please read again, and ask Bhante Thanissaro if you will, or any other Bhikkhu, my question: > Is there any Sutta saying Vipassana SHOULD BE/HAVE TO practiced after achieving Jhana? > Yuganaddhana Sutta explain, there are four ways Arahant attain their Arahantship: > 1. Vippassana preceded by Samatha > 2. Samatha preceded by Vipassana > 3. Samatha and Vipassana in tandem > 4. Controlling Vipassanaupakilesa. > You, Ajahn Brahm, and Ajahn Thanissaro, believe only number 1 correct, other way incorrect right? But I believe this Sutta, all four ways of attaining Magga-Phala, even though I'm not familiar with number 4. > Why I accept number 4 even though I'm not familiar? Because I Believe in Tipitaka. Besides Yuganaddha Sutta is in accordance with Abhidhamma. I cannot speak for Ajahn Brahmavamso or Thanissaro Bhikkhu, but I can speak for myself. I accept all four cases like you do. However, I do not mis-comprehend it. In all four cases, both vipassana and samatha are required before the "path is born". I have heard of a teaching that says the second, Samatha Preceded by Vipassana, the samatha therein refers to the Supramundane Jhana of the Magga-Phala cittas, and therefore there is no need to attain the samatha jhanas. This is incorrect as the sutta clearly says that the path is only born after both vipassana and samatha have been achieved. The difference then lies in the order in which vipassana and samatha are achieved. You can practise vipassana first and then later samatha, or you can practise samatha first and then later vipassana, or you can practise both concurrently without a strict definition of a first and a later. Only when both of these skills have been perfected is the path then born. > BY THE WAY, DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS CONCENTRATION FOR (WHAT IS THE PURPOSE), IN PRACTICING VIPPASSANA? WHAT IS CONCENTRATION? Concentration sharpens Vipassana. Without concentration, vipassana is like a blunt knife. It doesn't cut away all the fetters. Swee Boon #108757 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:22 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] how to.... gr8fuldawg2010 I posted my pic! Well about me I don't want to give you some long drug out thing but I will say this much. I accepted Jesus at 19 became a intern to be a pastor at 25, by 27 I quit my internship and rejected the new testament and Jesus as being anything more then a fable written by men. For the last year I tried Judaism rejected that two, then Deism, that two I rejected then I found Buddhism this I am just learning about at this point. At of all theravada Buddhism seems to make the most sense to me, it just doesn't seem to be built up so much all in faith. But it seems to be based on facts. I mean when I first read about buddhism, I was like ???? But now that I see what attachement does, and how it effects us etc... I have been on a path for truth for along time now, and I think I am begining to find it, Buddhism just makes sense. Though i can not lie, I do struggle now with any belief in it that invovles having faith in something with out the evidence. For instance, reincarnation, there is no way I can see from yet anyway to say that reincarnation can be proved, therfore it seems to be more based on faith. I don't know just my opinion hope not to offend anyone. Anyway there is alot more detail to all that if anyone wants more info feel free to e-mail me and I would gladly share the story of my journey with them. Anyway I am now living in Central Oregon, i grew up in Portland oregon and moved to central oregon when I was 19. I am now 28 and I am married with four kids. My wife and kids are all still Christian my wife knows about my spiritual life such as Buddhism however at this time as far as my kids know I am still hristian. My wifes views are not very positive about my own, and she seems to have a BIG problem with my ideas. And will not let me speak to the kids about them, since I left the faith (her faith) it has been hard, but anyway I am just on a search for truth and the path has led me here! so Here I am! thanks for asking sarah, Happy Living, peace and love Ryan To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: sarahprocterabbott@... Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 10:24:37 +0000 Subject: Re: [dsg] how to.... Hi Ryan, Welcome to DSG! In your introductory message you nicely point to the first 2 Noble Truths - Dukkha and the cause of Dukkha, attachment. Clinging is just clinging, regardless of the object. We always take it for "Me", but really, it's just a very, very common mental state which arises and falls away. I think the application is in the understanding. Instead of trying to "Do" anything with this idea of "Me", gradually some understanding and awareness will begin to develop as a result of your wise considerations and reflections. This is the path of detachment and acceptance, not of trying to "Do" and "Make happen". Where do you live, Ryan? Pls tell us anything else about your background and interest in the Dhamma. Also, if any newcomers would care to put a pic in the Members' Album in DSG, many of us would be glad to see it. Look forward to more discussion later. Metta Sarah ======== >My name is Ryan and I am new to the group. Looking for some answers. Ok forgive me because I am very new to this whole thing. But Once you see the clinging, attachment and how it leads to suffering how do you stop! <...> #108758 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Lukas' questions to Ajahn Sujin, part 8. nilovg Dear Lukas, Lukas' questions to Ajahn Sujin, part 8 Jon: A normal life, that seems to be the most difficult thing. ----------- Kh S: Why? It is already normal life. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ L.ukas: Does right thinking leads to right understanding? -------- N: They go together. --------- Lukas: What if there is a lot of akusala, can there be still right understanding? -------- Kh S: Understanding can understand anything. N: When lobha and the other kinds of akusala are not known they can never be eradicated. Kh S: Then there is avijjaa again. There should be understanding of realities from the very beginning. Hearing, considering and knowing the difference between intellectual understanding and direct awareness and understanding. Otherwise one may take intellectual understanding for pa~n~naa that is direct understanding. This kind of pa~n~naa can eradicate the idea of self. It is sacca ~naa.na (N: firm understanding of the truth that can lead to kicca ~naa.na, right awareness and understanding and this leads again to kata ~naa.na, the direct realization of the truth.) Sacca ~naa.na: this is the understanding that each reality that arises is conditioned, like now. It has arisen and after it has arisen it is gone completely. It depends on the strength of pa~n~naa whether it is keen enough to understand that. We do not have to use names in order to differentiate intellectual understanding and direct understanding. ------- Lukas: What if we fight on account of Dhamma, if we don't lead proper life, if we are involved in pleasant feelings, can there be still pa~n~na? --------- Kh S: Then it seems that pa~n~naa cannot understand pleasant feeling. Pa~n~naa can understand anything. But this depends on conditions, on the strength of pa~n~naa. --------- Nina. #108759 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Letters from Nina. The problem of Fear (part 3). nilovg Dear friends, When the Buddha was still a Bodhisatta he developed satipatthana with patience and perseverance in order to attain Buddhahood and thus to be able to teach other beings as well the way leading to the end of birth. The 'Mugapakkha Jataka' (VI, no. 538) gives an impressive account of the Bodhisatta's heroism. He never was neglectful of his task of developing wisdom, since he had a wholesome fear of rebirth in Hell. He had to suffer severe tribulations, but he was always perfectly composed and never showed any weak point. When we are in difficult situations do we have perseverance to develop insight? Can there be awareness of any reality which appears through one of the six doors? We may find it difficult to develop right understanding when we are very busy or when we are with other people. We could consider such circumstances as a test or an examination we have to pass. If we fail we have to begin again and again. When we read the 'Mugapakkha Jataka' we can be reminded not to be neglectful in the development of insight. If we realize that it is dangerous to be in the cycle of birth and death there can be a wholesome fear which urges us to be mindful now. We read in the 'Mughapakkha Jataka' that the Bodhisatta was born as the son of the King of Kasi and received the name 'Temiya'. He remembered that in a former life when he was a King he condemned people to death. As a result of akusala kamma he was reborn in hell. After that he was reborn as Prince Temiya. When he remembered these former lives he decided that he did not want to succeed his father as King and therefore he pretended to be cripple, deaf and dumb. Five hundred infants born to the concubines of the King were his companions. When they cried for milk he did not cry, reflecting that to die of thirst would be better than to reign as king and risk rebirth in hell. In order to test him he was given milk after the proper time or not at all, but he did not cry. The nurses spent one year in trying him but did not discover any weak point. In order to test him the other children were given cakes and dainties and they quarreled and struck one another. The Bodhisatta would not look at the cakes and dainties. He said : 'O Temiya, eat the cakes and dainties if you wish for hell'. People kept on trying him in many ways but he was always patient and composed, realizing the danger of an unhappy rebirth. People tried to frighten him with a wild elephant and with serpents but they did not succeed. They tempted him with pleasant objects. Performances of mimes were given and the other children shouted 'bravo' and laughed, but Temiya did not want to look and remained motionless, reflecting that in hell there never would be a moment of laughter and joy. In order to find out whether he was really deaf they let conch blowers make a burst of sound , but they could not through a whole day detect in him any confusion of thought or any disturbance of hand or foot, or even a single start. They smeared his body with molasses and put him in a place infested with flies which bit him, but he remained motionless and perfectly apathetic. When he was sixteen years old they tried to tempt him with beautiful women who were dancing and singing. We read: '...but he looked at them in his perfect wisdom and stopped his inhalations and exhalations in fear lest they should touch his body, so that his body became quite rigid.' The Bodhisatta looked with perfect composure and with wisdom at the beautiful women. While he was motionless during his trials and tests he was not idle, he was mindful. In order to attain Buddhahood he had to develop satipatthana with perseverance. He was mindful of realities, no matter in what situation. Although this is not mentioned in the Jatakas all the time, it is implied. --------- Nina. #108760 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:36 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Letters from Nina. The problem of Fear (part 3). gr8fuldawg2010 I don't think I ever read part 1 can I get you to e-mail it to me or post it again. Please. :) Peace & Love Ryan #108761 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:38 pm Subject: Re: Buddhist Cosmology nidive Hi Fabian, > I'm not discussing Astronomy alone, but discussing Astronomy in accordance with Buddha's discourses, which lead to open mindednes and saddha to the omnisciency of The Buddha. Why do you think discussing about astronomy will lead to faith in the Blessed One? According to the Blessed One, the proximate cause of faith is suffering. ------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html "Faith, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for faith? 'Suffering' should be the reply. ------------------- Why do you think discussing about the astronomy is suffering? > Do you think one should not speak about cosmology at all? Do you think The Buddha speak something unbeneficial? Since the Buddha is speaking about the Goal of Nibbana in his discourses with the cosmos as the background theme, he is speaking beneficially for his listeners. But the same cannot be said about you. Swee Boon #108762 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:43 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Letters from Nina. The problem of Fear (part 3). gr8fuldawg2010 maybe 3 as well I must have accidently deleted it. :) #108763 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism is about daily life. nilovg Dear Ryan, a very interesting journey you made. Faith should not be blind faith, but confidence based on understanding. The Pali word saddhaa is often translated as faith, but I prefer confidence. You went through quite a development, and I think after a while your views about Christianity and Judaism may also become milder, more positive. Then it will be easier to speak about spiritual matters with your wife (what is her name?) too. In fact we do not have to give labels to religions. We can speak about good morality, about kindness. About our own cittas, but we do not have to use the name cittas. Little by little. You can speak about realities, not using names. It is all about daily life and in this way you will find an exchange of ideas easier. I once read what a Rabbi wrote about mettaa, ( he used a Hebrew word, I forgot, Howard knows). It was so finely observed, also speaking about what was not mettaa but seemed mettaa. I was really impressed. Of course, only the Buddha can explain mettaa clearly as non-self. But I write this to show that we should not immediately say: all teachings by other religions are wrong view. Some great philosophers like Proust, came close to theoretical understanding of non-self. We can come to appreciate more the good in others, no matter what religion they profess. A negative attitude may be a sign of uncertainty which is perfectly understandable. In the beginning one is struggling oneself to find the truth. Appreciation of others' kusala is a kind of generosity, daana. Sure, your wife performs kusala in her dealings with others, helping the kids, helping other people in her surroundings. a good subject to speak about. Helping, not thinking of oneself. We can keep it all simple, it does not have to be so deep in the beginning. So, speak more about your daily life, your family. Nina. Op 28-jul-2010, om 16:22 heeft Ryan Brawn het volgende geschreven: > My wifes views are not very positive about my own, and she seems to > have a BIG problem with my ideas. And will not let me speak to the > kids about them, since I left the faith (her faith) it has been > hard, but anyway I am just on a search for truth and the path has > led me here! so Here I am! #108764 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] how to.... nidive Hi Ryan, > I accepted Jesus at 19 became a intern to be a pastor at 25, by 27 I quit my internship and rejected the new testament and Jesus as being anything more then a fable written by men. I accepted Jesus into my life at the age of 15. I sincerely believed that he could heal my left ear which is deaf. I went to a healing session and was disappointed. It was all a lie. I hated him. Then I slowly withdrew myself from that fable and discovered it was not a lie. I had only cheated myself. > For instance, reincarnation, there is no way I can see from yet anyway to say that reincarnation can be proved, therfore it seems to be more based on faith. I don't know just my opinion hope not to offend anyone. Then you should familiarize yourself with this safe-bet teaching by the Tathagata. --------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.060.than.html "And what is the safe-bet teaching? A. "There are some brahmans & contemplatives who hold this doctrine, hold this view: 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and realized it for themselves.'[1] B. "Some brahmans & contemplatives, speaking in direct opposition to those brahmans & contemplatives, say this: 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' "What do you think, householders? Don't these brahmans & contemplatives speak in direct opposition to each other?" "Yes, lord." A1. "Now, householders, of those brahmans & contemplatives who hold this doctrine, hold this view ? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and realized it for themselves' ? it can be expected that, shunning these three skillful activities ? good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct ? they will adopt & practice these three unskillful activities: bad bodily conduct, bad verbal conduct, bad mental conduct. Why is that? Because those venerable brahmans & contemplatives do not see, in unskillful activities, the drawbacks, the degradation, and the defilement; nor in skillful activities the rewards of renunciation, resembling cleansing. A2. "Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he is says that 'There is no next world,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that 'There is no next world,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view. A3. "With regard to this, a wise person considers thus: 'If there is no next world, then ? at the break-up of the body, after death ? this venerable person has made himself safe. But if there is the next world, then this venerable person ? on the break-up of the body, after death ? will reappear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Even if we didn't speak of the next world, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable brahmans & contemplatives, this venerable person is still criticized in the here-&-now by the wise as a person of bad habits & wrong view: [2] one who holds to a doctrine of non-existence. If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a bad throw twice: in that he is criticized by the wise here-&-now, and in that ? with the break-up of the body, after death ? he will reappear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Thus this safe-bet teaching, when poorly grasped & poorly adopted by him, covers (only) one side, and leaves behind the possibility of the skillful. B1. "Now, householders, of those brahmans & contemplatives who hold this doctrine, hold this view ? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves' ? it can be expected that, shunning these three unskillful activities ? bad bodily conduct, bad verbal conduct, bad mental conduct ? they will adopt & practice these three skillful activities: good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct. Why is that? Because those venerable brahmans & contemplatives see in unskillful activities the drawbacks, the degradation, and the defilement; and in skillful activities the rewards of renunciation, resembling cleansing. B2. "Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is a next world' is his right view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that 'There is a next world,' that is his right resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, 'There is a next world,' that is his right speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he is says that 'There is a next world,' he doesn't make himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that 'There is a next world,' that is persuasion in what is true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is true Dhamma, he doesn't exalt himself or disparage others. Whatever bad habituation he previously had is abandoned, while good habituation is manifested. And this right view, right resolve, right speech, non-opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is true Dhamma, non-exaltation of self, & non-disparagement of others: These many skillful activities come into play, in dependence on right view. B3. "With regard to this, a wise person considers thus: 'If there is the next world, then this venerable person ? on the break-up of the body, after death ? will reappear in the good destination, the heavenly world. Even if we didn't speak of the next world, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable brahmans & contemplatives, this venerable person is still praised in the here-&-now by the wise as a person of good habits & right view: one who holds to a doctrine of existence. If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a good throw twice, in that he is praised by the wise here-&-now; and in that ? with the break-up of the body, after death ? he will reappear in the good destination, the heavenly world. Thus this safe-bet teaching, when well grasped & adopted by him, covers both sides, and leaves behind the possibility of the unskillful. --------------------- Swee Boon #108765 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail farrellkevin80 Dear Nina: Nina wrote: Dear Kevin, Thank you for the reference. Thus far I have not met discrepancies in the commentaries and therefore I am surprised of the quote you gave. It is hard to find its location and seems in contradiction with Horner's translation of the Co to the Buddhavamsa, the Clarifier of Sweet meaning. How correct is this website you mention? I shall go through Vol I, Horner's translation. I do not know about Oldenberg. Thank you anyway. Nina. Kevin: I know, I wish they would have given a more direct location. The web site said the text was "slightly adapted from I.B. Horners translation of the Vinaya" and gave a link to the first book of the Vinaya. I have no idea of how legit the site or the author of it is. It is just something I happened upon. However, the site did provide someof the Pali, though not all (which is why I left the pali out initially). I copied it below. And here is the link the web site: http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2009/06/10/advantages-of-a-systematic-approach/ The Pali that was provided: ‘bhagavato ca, sa-riputta, vipassissa bhagavato ca sikhissa bhagavato ca vessabhussa brahmacariyam. na cirat.t.hitikam. ahosi. bhagavato ca, sa-riputta, kakusandhassa bhagavato ca kon.a-gamanassa bhagavato ca kassapassa brahmacariyam. cirat.t.hitikam. ahosi-’’ti. 1.) Wiederholbar 2.) Klar abgesteckt 3.) Schuler und Lehrer koennen Fortschritt mit anderen vergleichen (!!!! so wichtig) 4.) Es werden die selben sprachlichen Konzepte benutzt um den Fortschritt vergleichbar zu machen 5.) Das System kann unabhaenging von einem “Guru” oder “Meister” gelehrt werden. 6.) Das System IST der Meister (Buddha verehrte den Dhamma als seinen Lehrer) 7.) Das System kann weitergegeben werden. Ein “Guru” stirbt irgendwann 8.) Ein System baut auf einer nahezu wissenschaftlichen Vorgehen auf…Wie ein Experiment, dass man versucht erfolgreich zu wiederholen 9.) Ein System motiviert Schuler: Der Weg ist klar strukturiert. Schritt fuer Schritt Fortschritte. 10.) Lehrer eines solchen Systems koennen aufgrund gleicher/aehnlicher Anweisungen bei vielen Teilnehmern besser lernen wie sich der Fortschritt gestaltet….das wird sie zu b e s s e r e n Lehrern machen, je oefter sie das System lehren…….. 19. ‘‘ko nu kho , bhante, hetu ko paccayo, yena bhagavato ca vipassissa bhagavato ca sikhissa bhagavato ca vessabhussa brahmacariyam. na cirat.t.hitikam. ahosi-’’ti? ‘‘bhagava- ca, sa-riputta, vipassi- bhagava- ca sikhi- bhagava- ca vessabhu- kila-suno ahesum. sa-vaka-nam. vittha-rena dhammam. desetum.. appakañca nesam. ahosi suttam. geyyam. veyya-karan.am. ga-tha- uda-nam. itivuttakam. ja-takam. abbhutadhammam. vedallam.. apaññattam. sa-vaka-nam. sikkha-padam.. anuddit.t.ham. pa-timokkham.. tesam. buddha-nam. bhagavanta-nam. antaradha-nena buddha-nubuddha-nam. sa-vaka-nam. antaradha-nena ye te pacchima- sa-vaka- na-na-na-ma- na-na-gotta- na-na-jacca- na-na-kula- pabbajita- te tam. brahmacariyam. khippaññeva antaradha-pesum.. seyyatha-pi, sa-riputta, na-na-puppha-ni phalake nikkhitta-ni suttena asan.gahita-ni ta-ni va-to vikirati vidhamati viddham.seti. tam. kissa hetu? yatha- tam. suttena asan.gahitatta-. evameva kho, sa-riputta, tesam. buddha-nam. bhagavanta-nam. antaradha-nena buddha-nubuddha-nam. sa-vaka-nam. antaradha-nena ye te pacchima- sa-vaka- na-na-na-ma- na-na-gotta- na-na-jacca- na-na-kula- pabbajita- te tam. brahmacariyam. khippaññeva antaradha-pesum.. (etc) found in [Vinaya, I, Veranjakanda] ________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108766 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:37 pm Subject: Re: Buddhism is about daily life. szmicio Dear Nina, Ryan I read this post very fast, but i remember AS words:there is always something. We got all now. There is seeing and hearing. Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ryan, > a very interesting journey you made. #108767 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Lukas' questions to Ajahn Sujin, part 8. szmicio Dear Nina, Just my last post. Very beneficial discussion it wa. I feel a lot of support. Best wishes Lukas > #108768 From: A T Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:20 pm Subject: AN9.36 truth_aerator Dear Fabian, all, This is reply to #108748 >F: In my opinion, access to insight translation of Jhana Sutta is a BIAS >TRANSLATION. "...jha-nam. nissa-ya a-sava-nam. khayam. " nissa-ya = by means of; by one's support; near by. So it can mean that by means of Jha-na the taints are destroyed. In MN64 it says: " It is not possible that one could, knowing and seeing overcome the lower bonds of the sensual world without coming to this path and method. " And the method is provided as the same one found in AN9.36. "ânanda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? ânanda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction*1). With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. ânanda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world." http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/064-maha-malun\ khyaputta-e1.html Do you understand what it means "It is not possible" to arrive by any other method? So "...jha-nam. nissa-ya a-sava-nam. khayam. " does mean the necessary requirement of one thing to be based on another. As for Yuganaddha sutta it lists 4 paths: 1) samathapubban.gamam. vipassanam. 2) vipassana-pubban.gamam. samatham. 3)samathavipassanam. yuganaddham. 4) ‘‘Puna caparam., a-vuso, bhikkhuno dhammuddhaccaviggahitam. ma-nasam. hoti. Hoti so, a-vuso, samayo yam. tam. cittam. ajjhattameva santit.t.hati sannisi-dati ekodi hoti sama-dhiyati. Note: Vipassana is mentioned in first 3 paths with samatha. The 4th path doesn;t list vipassana but it lists "cittam. ajjhattameva santit.t.hati sannisi-dati ekodi hoti sama-dhiyati" "mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.170.than.html So we have samatha in first 3 cases and sama-dhi in the 4th. So "...jha-nam. nissa-ya a-sava-nam. khayam. " does mean the necessary requirement for destruction of the taints (a-sava-nam.). (Jha-na is part of samma-sama-dhi, a required component of N8P). With metta, Alex #108769 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail nilovg Dear Kevin, thank you, When time permits I shall look it over. The German: prof Hinuber? He may be a good Pali scholar, but not sure I agree with everything. I leave it open :)) Nina. Op 28-jul-2010, om 18:25 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > However, the site did provide someof the Pali, though not all > (which is why I > left the pali out initially). I copied it below. #108770 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Lukas' questions to Ajahn Sujin, part 8. nilovg Dear Lukas. Yes, it was, helpful for me to reread it. Nina. Op 28-jul-2010, om 18:40 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Very beneficial discussion it wa. I feel a lot of support. #108771 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail farrellkevin80 Dear Nina: You wrote: Dear Kevin, thank you, When time permits I shall look it over. The German: prof Hinuber? He may be a good Pali scholar, but not sure I agree with everything. I leave it open :)) Kevin: OK. Thanks Nina! Be well, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108772 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:45 pm Subject: Re: Confusion - awareness of 4 elements within one's body kenhowardau Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear KenH, all interested, > > > Hi Andrew, > > All too often, people insist on asking Dhamma questions on the >basis >of the conventionally known world. But that will never work; >they >will never get satisfactory answers that way. > > > The Noble path does start with sila (morality) and it DOES include conventional activities. > > "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html > > > "A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison." --------------------------------------- You don't understand, Alex, there are no conventional activities, there are only dhammas. ------- A: > "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html "A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.177.than.html ------- As I was saying, there are only dhammas. Vitati (abstention from harm) is a dhamma, and it can arise in one of three forms. The Buddha has described those forms by using concepts. 'Business in weapons' and 'business in slaves' etc., are concepts that we ordinary people can recognise, and so the Buddha used them for describing virati-dhamma in its 'right livelihood' form. ---------------- A: > As you know the progress goes from sila to samadhi to panna. ---------------- No, I don't know that at all! ----------------------- A: > > By trying to impatiently bypass the initial steps may make one appear to advance quickly, but all of this is done at unreliable basis. Before you build a roof, you need to build and fortify the walls, and before you build the walls the base needs to be done. You can't build a 3rd floor before building the 1st one... ------------------------ You seem to be working on the basis that sila is a concept. That's not right. You should be saying sila is a dhamma that can be *described* by concepts. We have this discussion on a regular basis. Most often it is when you have insisted that right concentration (of the 8fold Path) is the same as mundane jhana. I always insist it is a dhamma that can be *described* as a kind of jhana, which in turn can be *described* by concepts of sitting cross-legged at the base of a tree etc. I am sure will have the same conversation many more times. :-) Ken H #108773 From: Kevin F Date: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:47 pm Subject: Some ideas about dhamma starting to change farrellkevin80 Hi everyone, Some of my ideas about Dhamma are starting to change a bit. I still believe that learning about dhamma, hearing it, discussing it, etc. can lead to the development of conceptual wisdom. This conceptual wisdom can lead to wisdom on the level of experience and on the level of penetration. Therefore, I think that hearing and reflecting wisely about dhammas can lead to the Four Ariyan Paths and Fruits, of sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, and arahant. I still believe that jhana is extremely hard to attain in this day and age and that mastery of it is no longer possible, and consequently neither are the higher powers possible for disciples in this day and age. I believe this because the Commentaries and so it is so. I also believe, however, that the Buddha did intend for people to "take up" meditation subjects and to try and practice sila. It is evident that one should try to practice sila, for the Buddha made all the monks who didn't have accumulations to have perfect sila, take vows to practice sila, and live under rules about their sila which caused them to undergo punishments when they do not live by perfect sila. I don't believe it is very profitable to practice samatha at this time, because we can't master or probably even attain the jhanas at all. But I do believe certain types of meditation are profitable. In the Mahasatipatthana Sutta the Buddha taught: ‘A bhikkhu reviews this very body however it be positioned or placed as consisting of just elements thus, “There are in this body just the earth-element, the water-element, the fire-element, and the air-element.'" The Visuddhimagga, which we quote here, and which students of Ajahn Sujin quote quite often, and which is accepted as a classical Mahavihara Theravada text written by a master of the Tipitika and it's Commentaries explains: (Vism,Ch.XI, para. 41–43): ‘So firstly, one of quick understanding who wants to develop this meditation should go into solitary retreat. Then he should advert to his entire material body, and discern the elements in brief in this way, “In this body what is hard or rough is the earth-element, what is flowing or cohesion is the water-element, what is maturing (ripening) or heat is the fire-element, what is pushing or supporting is the air-element,” and he should advert and give attention to it and review it again and again as “earth-element, water-element, fire-element, air-element,” that is to say, as mere elements, not a being, and soulless. As he makes effort in this way it is not long before concentration arises in him, which is reinforced by understanding that illuminates the classification of the elements, and which is only access and does not reach absorption because it has states with individual essences as its object.' I think we can see clearly from this passage that this is an instruction in meditation. I don't think there is any doubt that this is a direct instruction on meditation. Further to this, the sub-commentary to Visuddhimagga also says to develop concentration by giving attention in ten ways: in order, not too fast, not too slow, warding off distractions, going beyond the concept, discarding what is not clear, discerning the characteristics, and developing according to the Adhicitta Sutta, Anuttara-sãtibhàva Sutta, and Bojjhaïga Sutta. I think this meditation was taught by the Buddha with the purpose of developing wisdom in the individual. I am starting to think that it is profitable. I also think that no matter what one does, if one does not have the Parami developed, one will not attain nibbana because there will be no cause or support for it. I think that this meditation works on a conceptual level. When one searches in the body for hardness or roughness as earth element, for example, one does not really see it; however one gets a strong concept that it is there. I think that this meditation can work to increase conceptual wisdom, which can lead to wisdom of actual satipatthana, and eventually to penetration of nibbana. I also think that intentional sila can support this. What do you guys think?? All the best, Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #108774 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:45 am Subject: RE: [dsg] how to.... gr8fuldawg2010 Ok, to be honest I am way lost! I have absolutley no Idea what you are talking about or what you are trying to say only this, I don't know if I am getting what you are saying and please do not be offended. For I admit that I don't know a great deal only this, it seems though that your are trying to say that to say there is no next world is wrong, and to say there is, is right. If that is indeed what you are saying, I understand that is your FAITH. But in my inexpiereinced opionion, I believe that people cling to the idea of a afterlife because it helps them cope. It helps them deal with there fears. I am not saying that there is no afterlife, only no proof of one. And to say THERE IS, is total faith, because if we are honest with ourselves we would admit, we really don't know. Thomas paine had this to say about being honest with ourselves: "It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if i may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrutpted and prostituted the chasity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime..... can we concieve anything more destructive to morality than this." - Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason - Or another quote of his I like "I do not believe the creed proffessed by the Jewish church, the roman church, the greek church, the protestent church, nor by anyother church that I know of, my mind is my own church....I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those that believe otherwise, they have the right to there opinion as I do mine. -Thomas Paine- All I mean by this what I said earlier, is that if there is no proof, there can be no way to be sure. My thoughts on god are this: the idea of a god feeling one way or the other good, or bad, sad or angry with us or whatever is impossible. How conveint that man has mad God to be like himself. The bible says man was created in the image of god, for this there is no authority being as the bible is filled with contradictions. If god is spirit or as I believe energy/stillness/life/existance, he is not a man that he should think or feel or create, he does not have intellect. I believe god is energy/stillness/existance,nothing and yet everything, and when you take away everything in the universe, planets, starts, trees, grass, animals, people etc.. it is only god that will still remain, and we who are a part of him and from him when we die will simply be absorbed back up into the energy from which we came. anyway that is my view. But from my little understanding of budhism, we are to take the middle road, so to say that it is wrong view to say there is no proof of a afterlife, is not taking the middle road. However I stand in the middle saying while there is no proof there is also no proof of there not being, and therefore we don't know. But to believe without knowing does not only not make sense, but is taking to one extreme. If I misunderstood you I deeply apoplogize, and if I understood you correctly I deeply apologize if what I have written here offends you or anyone else. I simply and trying to be real with myself. I wish the best for you and all. Swee Boon: I accepted Jesus into my life at the age of 15. I sincerely believed that he could heal my left ear which is deaf. I went to a healing session and was disappointed. It was all a lie. I hated him. Then I slowly withdrew myself from that fable and discovered it was not a lie. I had only cheated myself. Ryan: I would be interested to know why you changed your mind? Love & Peace & happy living be yours Ryan To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: nidive@... Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:02:39 +0000 Subject: Re: [dsg] how to.... #108775 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:55 am Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro kenhowardau Hi Fabian, ---- <. . .> KH: > > I doubt it is practised by many people today. In fact, I doubt there would be more than just a few people today who even know what jhana is. > > FABIAN: Dear Ken, sorry I'm not agree, Jhana meditation Which is practiced by people today, is not different with peoples in the past. ---- Do we agree on what jhana meditation is? This is the way I understand it: Firstly, jhana is a citta. And it is a citta that is wholesome - not unwholesome. Most meditators today have either attachment or aversion, or just ignorance. And so they are not developing jhana citta. Secondly, jhana citta is a citta that contains panna (right understanding). This is not the same type of panna that arises with satipatthana - it doesn't know the three characteristics of dhammas - but it does know when a citta is kusala and when it is akusala. Most meditators today, even when they have wholesome consciousness, don't know it from unwholesome consciousness. And so they don't have panna, and they are not practising jhana. Thirdly, jhana is for only people who are inclined towards a life of seclusion. Therefore, even if someone had the wisdom to know kusala from akusala, it is still unlikely that he/she would even be interested in learning jhana meditation. Those rare people who are suited to jhana meditation are still unlikely to attain it. Firstly they would have to find a qualified teacher, and I doubt there are any today. But even then, the Visudhimagga explains that "only one in a hundred or a thousand" of those people who are accepted by a jhana teacher, will ever attain access concentration. And of those who do attain access concentration, "only one in a hundred or a thousand" will ever attain the first jhana. So jhana is an extremely rare phenomenon, and it is practised only by a rare kind of individual. I imagine it would be the kind of individual who would be regarded in their community as a saint. Modern-day communities have no interest in saints. Our heroes are singers and actors, and so we are unlikely to provide the support that a reclusive meditator requires. For all sorts of reasons, I think we have to accept that jhana meditation is a thing of the past. Ken H #108776 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:42 am Subject: RE: [dsg] how to.... sarahprocter... Hi Ryan, Many thx for sharing your great pic in the Member album and for your interesting intro. Look like super kids. You'll find that many members here have a Christian or other religious background. As Nina suggested, with more understanding, metta and compassion, we can live with others with different beliefs more easily and your kids will learn from your example! I'm glad to see you're joining in different discussions and making it clear when you're not following - keep asking for clarifications! Look forward to more discussion later. Metta Sarah p.s All new members - pls make it very clear who is being addressed at the top of your post, even if 'Anyone' or 'All'. Also, pls remember to trim the post you're responding - just keep enough for context and assume we've all read it. Thx! (For any help with these issues, pls ask off-list - preferably Pt!) --- On Wed, 28/7/10, Ryan Brawn wrote: > Well about me I don't want to give you some long drug out > thing but I will say this much. #108777 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:51 am Subject: Re: how to.... kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ryan Brawn wrote: > > > Ok, to be honest I am way lost! I have absolutley no Idea what you are talking about or what you are trying to say only this, I don't know if I am getting what you are saying and please do not be offended. ----------------- Hi Ryan, I don't know who you are addressing. You have attached a message from Swee Boon, and so maybe you are addressing him, but it could be any or all of us. In any case, it is good that you know you are lost. These days, you could ask a thousand Buddhists 'what did the Buddha teach?' and get a thousand different answers. That is because it is popular these days to ignore the ancient texts and simply believe whatever you want to believe. In other words, nearly everyone is lost. But at DSG our idea is to study the ancient Theravada texts. So I hope the people who answer your questions here will warn you if they are knowingly giving an opinion that is contrary to the those texts. Good luck! :-) Ken H #108778 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:05 am Subject: Re: how to.... truth_aerator Hello KenH, all, > But at DSG our idea is to study the ancient Theravada texts. So I >hope the people who answer your questions here will warn you if they >are knowingly giving an opinion that is contrary to the those texts. > > Good luck! :-) > > Ken H > Right, and they do often talk about strong effort in an imperative tone, not a descriptive one. To drive a car you don't need to know complex chemistry, mechanics, physics, where every microprocessor is located, and how all the complex parts function (you'd spend decade in school to learn that). You just need to know the user instructions to drive and operate on user level and leave the rest for mechanics. Citta doesn't arise randomly. It arises due to causes and conditions. Because of that it is possible to affect citta with citta. There is control and influence on a citta level. Things don't happen randomly. So what if such and such a kusala state requires such and such causes? Put them in! You can't use conditionality as an excuse not to do things. Of course action or non-action is conditioned as well. Swimming too. But that doesn't mean that one doesn't move when in deep waters. People are in deep waters of samsara. To get out effort must actually be made. With metta, Alex #108779 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A get-together with Pt, Vince & Nancy! ptaus1 Dear Sarah, > S: I think I suggested self-attachment, wanting to be someone with more calm and so on. > ... > S: So many different cittas - only present panna can know, not trying to review past thoughts and actions. > > So it always comes back to this moment. Now, is there any panna or awareness? Is any reality known now? At this moment, is there wise reflection on the Teachings or a straining to experience certain states? Is there any breath appearing now, or is there visible object, hardness, thinking, like and dislike? pt: But, but, but... Well, ok :) It's impossible not to agree with what you're saying above. In particular, it's interesting how effectively it tends to cut short all the thinking/speculation I like to engage in regarding whether a certain experience was awareness or not, mindfulness or not, etc. Best wishes pt #108780 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:35 am Subject: Re: What is the ALL actually? ptaus1 Hi KenH, Mike and all, Regarding the Visuddhimagga VIII,246, note 68 bit we discussed previously: "The individual essence of any formed dhamma is manifested in the three instants of its existence (atthita-, vijjama-nata-), namely, arising, presence (= ageing) and dissolution. It comes from nowhere and goes nowhere (Ch. XV,15) and is borne by the mind." There's an interesting passage in AN 3.47: "Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) while staying is discernible." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.047.than.html Anyone knows what would be the commentary on this - basically, would this correspond to the 3 sub-moments of a dhamma arising, aging and dissolution, or the context of the sutta is referring to something else? Best wishes pt #108781 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters from Nina. The problem of Fear (part 3). ptaus1 Hi Ryan, > Ryan: I don't think I ever read part 1 can I get you to e-mail it to me or post it again. Please. :) > > maybe 3 as well I must have accidently deleted it. :) It looks as if you're following the discussion through your email. So, if you delete some messages from your inbox, you can always look them up on the actual yahoo group where all the posts go and are stored: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages If there's a particular post you're looking for, you can do a search there - for example, entering the subject of the post you're looking for "The problem of Fear" in the search box gives the results for all the 3 parts: part 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/108673 part 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/108725 part 3 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/108759 Best wishes pt #108782 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:33 am Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro kenhowardau Hi again Fabian, Continuing on: ----------- <. . .> F: > As far as I know in meditation we should not thinking, wandering, judging or analyzing the mind, whether it is kusala or akusala. We just note everything as they really are, note as they arises. ----------- Which kind of meditation notes everything as it arises? I think all of the samatha meditations (including jhana) concentrate on just one object throughout, don't they? And there is no noting in satipatthana. The objects of satipatthana are conditioned dhammas (billionths-of-a-second phenomena), and they have come and gone before anyone can note them. ----------------- <. . .> F: > As I told you Satipatthana you should not thinking, you just observe, see everything as they are, not theoryzing, judging or analyzing. -------------- No that is not satipatthana. The form of meditation you have just described was invented in quite recent times. There is no mention of it in the Pali texts. The real satipatthana occurs irrespective of whatever the 'meditator' (if we can call him that) is doing. So he can be thinking or theorising or walking or talking etc. A real satipatthana meditator goes about his normal daily life without attempting to control the flow of dhammas in any way. That is because he understands their conditioned nature. They are beyond control. Ken H #108783 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Common misconception on in & out breathing in Vipassana. nilovg Dear Fabian, Op 28-jul-2010, om 7:49 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven: > I Agree with you, in Sammasana nana all ten kilesa might arises, > due to stronger mindfullness and concentration (correct me if I'm > wrong). ------ N: I think this is due to accumulated clinging, not to mindfulness. Mindfulness is always kusala. -------- > > F: The way I experienced Vipassana is like goal keeper, waiting and > catch the ball if they're coming, or like observer of a game. > Likewise in Vipassana we aware everything arises as they really > are, we aware as they arises, aware as they matured and aware of > their disappearance. Every phenomena arises should be aware of as > it is, regardless of our positions (four iriyapatha). ------ N: Yes, it does not matter what posture one assumes. As to awareness of arising, maturing and cessation, this is already more advanced. I think that you know that the first stage of insight has to come first. Otherwise one is not sure: what arises and falls away, naama or ruupa? Each citta with sati and understanding can take only one object at a time, either a naama or a ruupa. I find the following passage of Kh. Sujin's Survey of Paramattha dhammas helpful (ch 35): < Ignorance (avijj?), not knowing the characteristics of n?ma and r?pa, and wrong view, ditthi, which takes n?ma and r?pa for self, are latent tendencies. One takes all kinds of realities for self, no matter whether one sees, hears, tastes, smells, experiences tangible object, thinks, feels happy or unhappy. The only way leading to the eradication of latent tendencies is the development of satipatth?na. This is awareness and investigation of the realities which appear so that they can be understood more clearly. Understanding is developed stage by stage. When pa??? is developed to the degree of the first stage of insight, ?the defining of n?ma and r?pa? (n?ma-r?pa- pariccheda-~naa.na), pa??? can clearly comprehend the difference between the characteristic of n?ma and of r?pa appearing at that moment.... Pa??? can only be developed by considering and studying with awareness n?ma and r?pa as they naturally appear through the senses and through the mind-door. They arise because of their own conditions, no matter where one is. > ------- > > F: If there are several object arises at a time, take one object > which we think the most dominant or more urgent to be mindful of. > Don't let mindfulness slips away. > Doing this over and over would strengthen the mindfulness and > concentration. ------- N: Indeed, many realities arise at a time, and it entirely depends on conditions whether sati arises or not, and of what object it is mindful. I think it is not a matter of 'us' finding something urgent. As to the slipping away of sati, this is very common. Sati accompanies kusala citta and I find it not difficult to know that there are far more akusala cittas in a day than kusala cittas. Even after seeing now there is bound to be subtle attachment to seeing or visible object. We like to see, we do not want to be without it. Therefore I do not think that it is useful to think of ourselves as having many moments of sati. Kh Sujin always stresses that it is right understanding that matters: is there more understanding of what appears now? Sati is not concentration. The following passage of 'Survey' (Ch 34) may be of help: --------- Nina. #108784 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 am Subject: [dsg] Lukas' questions to Ajahn Sujin, part 9. nilovg Dear Lukas, Lukas' questions to Ajahn Sujin, part 9 Lukas: What if there is akusala and there is no understanding? -------- N: I would say that there is more avijjaa. And it passes. Kh S: There will be more and more akusala. I think that he can answer this by himself, each question. The answer is there all the time. --------- L: What if we understand Dhamma on intelectual level, does it lead to right understanding in the future? Kh S: The answer is there, implied in the question. ------------ L : I still take it all for Self. Kh S: He knows the answer (laughter). ----------- L: What about forgetfullness? I always relay on that there be less forgetfulness when I start to hear Dhamma. -------- Kh S: There are cetasikas performing their functions, not self. ------------- L: Is it good to be with forgetfullness? I have no other choice. -------- Kh S: The answer is there. -------- N: Conditions. --------- Kh S: No self, anattaa. -------- N: People ask: can one not do anything? -------- Kh S: understanding. Who is doing anything? Understanding is a reality, it understands. --------- Nina. #108785 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:08 am Subject: [dsg] Letters from Nina. The problem of Fear (part 4). nilovg Dear friends, (Mughapakkha Jaataka, continued) Finally the King was adviced to bury him alive. When the charioteer was digging the hole for his grave, Temiya was adorned by Sakka with heavenly ornaments. He then told the charioteer that he was not cripple, deaf and dumb. He became an ascetic and preached to his parents about impermanence: 'It is death who smites this world, old age who watches at our gate, And it is the nights which pass and win their purpose soon or late. As when the lady at her loom sits weaving all the day, Her task grows ever less and less- so waste our lives away. As speeds the hurrying river's course on, with no backward flow, So in its course the life of men does ever forward go; And as the river sweeps away trees from its banks upturn, So are we men carried along by age and death in headlong ruin.' He explained to his father that he did not want the kingdom, stating that wealth, youth, wife and children and all other joys do not last. He said: 'Do what you have to do today, Who can ensure the morrow's sun? Death is the Master-general Who gives his guarantee to none.' These words can remind us not to put off our task of developing right understanding of any reality which appears. The Bodhisatta was unshakable in his resolution to develop right understanding. Also when he was put to severe tests, he sid not prefer anything else to the development of wisdom. Are we resolute as well? Or are we forgetful of what is really worthwhile in our life? Wisdom is more precious than any kind of possession, honour or praise. -------- Nina. #108786 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A get-together with Pt, Vince & Nancy! nilovg Dear pt, Op 28-jul-2010, om 5:38 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Yes, this was one of the topics - why try to know these things like > jhana in the first place. For me, I think I feel the need to > understand everything mentioned in the teaching intellectually and > then, hopefully, experientially. Though, as Sarah suggested, it's > very possible that the major part of this need to know things is > fueled by self-view, in the sense of wanting things for myself - > more calm, more mindfulness, more achievement, etc. I don't know. I > hope that not all of it is wrong-view, but, that need to know is > what usually drives me to read and examine the teachings at the > moment. ------- N: Very good to read and examine the teachings at the moment. Kusala citta and akusala citta always alternate, and more akusala than kusala is common to us all. ------- Nina. #108787 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] how to.... nilovg Dear Ryan, Op 29-jul-2010, om 2:45 heeft Ryan Brawn het volgende geschreven: > However I stand in the middle saying while there is no proof there > is also no proof of there not being, and therefore we don't know. > But to believe without knowing does not only not make sense, but is > taking to one extreme. ------ N: When we little by little have more understanding of the moment of consciousness now, we will also have more understanding of the last moment of this life and the first moment of a following life. Seeing is only one moment of consciousness and it falls away immediately. Then it is succeeded by a following moment. It takes a while to understand that life is a series of moments of consciousness arising and falling away, succeeding one another. Also the first moment of this life arose because of conditions, it could not arise without conditioning factors. Its condition was in the past, a past life. Gradually we will have more understanding of the cycle of birth and death. Nina. #108788 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:42 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Buddhism is about daily life. gr8fuldawg2010 Once again I stand corrected. I guess I am still a little bitter, about the past. I have definitly been on a search for truth. maybe to occupied with it. I definitly needed this correction. Thanks for doing it in such a kind way. Peace & love & happy living be yours Ryan > > Dear Ryan, > a very interesting journey you made. > Faith should not be blind faith, but confidence based on > understanding. The Pali word saddhaa is often translated as faith, > but I prefer confidence. #108789 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:03 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: how to.... (att. Ken H) gr8fuldawg2010 No problems, :) just one question swee boon his answer was his opinion right? #108790 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] how to.... nilovg Dear Ryan, adding more on birth and death. BTW what a nice picture, and lovely kids. ------ Sometimes the word reincarnation is used but this is not correct. It is not the same person anymore when there is a new birth into a new life. The word rebirth is used but also this is not quite correct. The Buddha teaches that there isn't anything that lasts. Still, we can use the word rebirth-consciousness if we understand that there is not a lasting person. What happens at the end of a lifespan is not different from this moment: one moment of consciousness, citta, falls away and this is the dying-citta, to be succeeded immediately by the following one that is the rebirth-consciousness. The new life is different from the previous life, but it is conditioned by the previous life. We are born with different inclinations, tendencies, talents. These inclinations come from past lives. We do not have to fear death because it is only one moment of citta and it all goes so extremely fast. Before it is realized, the next life has begun. Last lives we had to part from dear people, and this life it is not different, and it will be like this in future lives. You will read in the teachings about being in the cycle of birth and death, and this is sorrow, dukkha. The Buddha taught the way to eventually be freed from the cycle. Nina. #108791 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:56 pm Subject: Visuddhimagga IV,78 chewsadhu Dear Nina, Do you know what is "life-continuum jhaana in the fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming"? ============ But that absorption is only of a single conscious moment. For there are seven instances in which the normal extent [of the cognitive series] does not apply. They are in the cases of the first absorption, the mundane kinds of direct-knowledge, the four paths, fruition next after the path, life-continuum jhaana in the fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming, the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception as condition for cessation [of perception and feeling], and the fruition attainment in one emerging from cessation. ============ May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #108793 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] how to.... nidive Hi Ryan, > For I admit that I don't know a great deal only this, it seems though that your are trying to say that to say there is no next world is wrong, and to say there is, is right. If that is indeed what you are saying, I understand that is your FAITH. Suppose there are two types of bets you can gamble your spiritual life on: Type 1: Bet that there is no next world. Type 2: Bet that there is a next world. Now a person who bets on Type 1, believing that there is no next world, would he not by his belief think that: Whatever that I do now in this life by way of body, speech and mind, all of that have no future repercussions at all. It is possible that a person thinking in this way would commit murder, killing living beings and creatures, stealing, robbing, commits adultery with the wife or husband of another, tells habitual lies. And these unskillful activities are censured by the wise here and now. Now a person who bets on Type 2, believing that there is a next world, would he not by his belief think that: Whatever that I do now in this life by way of body, speech and mind, all of that have future repercussions in the next world. It is possible that a person thinking in this way would refrain from committing murder, refrain from killing living beings and creatures, refrain from stealing, refrain from robbing, refrain from committing adultery with the wife or husband of another, refrain from telling habitual lies. And these skillful activities are praised by the wise here and now. So, even if there is no next world, the person who bets on Type 2 is still praised by the wise here and now. And if there really is a next world, this very person who bets on Type 2 reappears in a heavenly destination living like the angels, or if not, in a happy human birth. > Ryan: I would be interested to know why you changed your mind? The conviction in kamma changed my mind. Swee Boon #108794 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:12 pm Subject: Visuddhimagga IV,111 chewsadhu Dear Nina, In the beginning of the three ways of goodness, jhaana state has already been attained. What do you understand on the "intensification of equanimity is the middle"? What do you understand on the "satisfaction is the end"? ======== (IV,110): Is good in three ways, possesses ten characteristics (??79): the goodness in three ways is in the beginning, middle, and end. ========= Of the first jhaana, purification of the way is the beginning, intensification of equanimity is the middle, and satisfaction is the end. ========= The beginning has three characteristics: the mind is purified of obstructions to that [jhaana]; because it is purified the mind makes way for the central [state of equilibrium, which is the] sign of serenity; because it has made way the mind enters into that state. ========= May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #108795 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:52 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] how to.... gr8fuldawg2010 Hi Swee Boon, :) I do love to discussions on things like this so I will continue: But I do see your point I have had discussions on this many times with others including my christian wife. But really I would ask this. If you are kind and good simply because your worried about your next life, then is it really kindness, and love? Because if it was true kindness and love it shouldn't matter wheather there is a next life or not. You would be kind and loving and moral, beacause that is who you are not out of fear. If someone held a gun to your head and told you to do something you would more then likely do it, almost no matter what it was. Why? Because your affraid of the consequence. No other reason. And that says to me, that if one is only kind because of fear of the next world or only moral because of fear of the next world, what kind of heart does that person have? I would rather be a kind person and moral person because that is who I am then being one out of fear. > Ryan: I would be interested to know why you changed your mind? Swee Boon: The conviction in kamma changed my mind. Ryan: would you mind explaining more detail? Just curious how it all ties together for you, I mean you said kamma but what is the link? Peace, Love & Happy Living be yours friend Ryan #108796 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:15 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] how to.... gr8fuldawg2010 Swee Boon, I accepted Jesus into my life at the age of 15. I sincerely believed that he could heal my left ear which is deaf. I went to a healing session and was disappointed. It was all a lie. I hated him. Then I slowly withdrew myself from that fable and discovered it was not a lie. I had only cheated myself. > Ryan: I would be interested to know why you changed your mind? Swee Boon: The conviction in kamma changed my mind. Are you saying that you believe in Jesus Christ? And if so to what extent? And how has kamma showed you anything about Christ divinity? Just very curious :) Peace, Love & Happy Living Ryan #108797 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:20 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] how to.... gr8fuldawg2010 Nina, Wow, I totally feel like a loser. That was not a picture of my kids, that was a picture of me with some kids in Mexico, the last mission trip I went on to buid houses down there. I was just the newest picture I had of myself. There I go being selfish. If I was going to have my picture with anyone on there I most defintly should not have been looking for the newsest one of MYSELF but for one with my Family. Sorry about the mix up. my wifes name is Liz by the way. :) and thanks for the great e-mail. #108798 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] how to.... nidive Hi Ryan, > But really I would ask this. If you are kind and good simply because your worried about your next life, then is it really kindness, and love? Because if it was true kindness and love it shouldn't matter whether there is a next life or not. You would be kind and loving and moral, because that is who you are not out of fear. If someone were to come after your life chopping up one of your limbs, would you be kind and loving to your attacker? If someone were to steal all your belongings leaving you penniless, would you be kind and loving to him? If someone were to sleep with your wife, would you be kind and loving to him? If someone were to speak falsely in court and land you in jail, would you be kind and loving to him? Can you be sure that your kindness and lovingness remain unaltered despite all the above events? Can you be sure that there will be no discernible change in your kindness and lovingness despite all the above events? > > Ryan: I would be interested to know why you changed your mind? > > Swee Boon: The conviction in kamma changed my mind. > > Ryan: would you mind explaining more detail? Just curious how it all ties together for you, I mean you said kamma but what is the link? Suffering is the link. The discovery that health is related to kamma is the link. Swee Boon #108799 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] how to.... nidive Hi Ryan, > Are you saying that you believe in Jesus Christ? Yes, previously. > And how has kamma showed you anything about Christ divinity? Nothing. There's no relation. Swee Boon