[Repeat-text portions of some of these messages have been removed ... c] #109000 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 4, 2010 11:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas (after further consideration) nilovg Dear Han, Op 5-aug-2010, om 0:26 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > On second thought, I think I will withdraw my questions. > > Because, the classification of akusala cetasikas into four groups > is found only in The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr Mehm Tin Mon. ------ N: What are they? He is a very good author. There are many different ways of classifying akusala cetasikas and they each show different aspects. Nina. #109001 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 4, 2010 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas nilovg Dear Han, sorry, I saw your post too late. Op 4-aug-2010, om 17:24 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: ------- (1) Moha-catukka (akusala-saadhaara.na) [4] A group of four cetasikas headed by moha (i) Moha = avijjaa: delusion, ignorance, dullness (ii) Ahirika: lack of moral shame, impudence (iii) Anottappa: lack of moral dread, recklessness (iv) Uddhacca: unrest, restlessness, distraction. (2) Lobha-tri (papa~nca-dhamma) [3] A group of three cetasikas headed by lobha (v) Lobha = raaga = ta.nhaa: greed, attachment, sensuous desire (vi) Di.t.thi: wrong view, evil opinion (vii) Maana: conceit, pride (3) Dosa-catukka (hateful ones) [4] A group of four cetasikas headed by dosa (viii) Dosa = pa.tigha: hatred, anger, aversion (ix) Issa: envy, jealousy (x) Macchariya: avarice, stinginess, selfishness (xi) Kukkucca: worry, scruples, remorse (4) End-tri (dull and wavering ones) [3] The last three immoral cetasikas (xii) Thina: sloth (xiii) Middha: torpor (xiv) Vicikiccchaa: sceptical doubt, perplexity. -------- > When we study the cittas there are only three groups of akusala > cittas, namely, Lobha-muula cittas, Dosa-muula cittas, and Moha- > muula cittas. > > Why can't there be only three groups in akusala cetasikas (Moha > group, Lobha group, Dosa group) as well, like the three groups in > akusala cittas? > > Why must there be the fourth group of Thina, Middha and Vicikicchaa > in the akusala cetasikas? ------- The first classification comprises the four akusala cetasikas arising with each akusala citta. The second one in deed are the papa~ncas that slow down the development of pa~n~naa, often mentioned together in the co. The third group: these can arise only with dosa-muulacitta. Then those not yet mentioned are in group 4. Thiina and middha only arise when the citta is sasa"nkhaarika. Doubt arises only with one type of moha-muulacitta, not with every moha-muulacitta. I cannot think of any other reason. Nina. #109002 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 4, 2010 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My Forums nilovg Dear Kevin, perhaps you could somehow combine this with dsg? For me, it would be too much, another forum. I take part of several already. But of course, up to you. Nina. Op 5-aug-2010, om 1:23 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > I started some new discussion board forums. > > It would be nice to see some people sign up, whether you decide to > post or not. #109003 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 4, 2010 11:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A post I made on Dhammawheel about wisdom in the Path of Purification nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 3-aug-2010, om 18:16 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > Then it talks about the five purifications of the trunk.. This too > is different > from actual insight knowledges. There are only five ways listed to > approach the > first purification, the Purification of View. "One meditator does > it by way of > the Four Elements", "another by way of the Eighteen Elements", > "another by way > of the Twelve Bases", "another...", and so on. So one breaks down > the "soil" > and all the information that one knows into a conceptual package of > only "nama" > and "rupa" by way of one of these five classifications given. ------ N: My point was actually that it seems that there is a 'first', a certain order. First ruupa. But when reading on, we see as you mention: eighteen elements, aayatanas, etc. and these contain both naama and ruupa. Thus, it is not a rigid order one has to follow. What arises naturally, that is the question. From the beginning the anattaness of investigation, awareness, right understanding should be taken to heart. Even pariyatti regards the object appearing at the present moment. Before there is any stage of vipassanaa, there can be awareness, even weak, of a reality appearing now. That is the only way to learn more about its nature, I think. Nina. #109004 From: han tun Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 12:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: The first classification comprises the four akusala cetasikas arising with each akusala citta. The second one in deed are the papa~ncas that slow down the development of pa~n~naa, often mentioned together in the co. The third group: these can arise only with dosa-muulacitta. Then those not yet mentioned are in group 4. Thiina and middha only arise when the citta is sasa"nkhaarika. Doubt arises only with one type of moha-muulacitta, not with every moha-muulacitta. I cannot think of any other reason. ---------- Han: Thank you very much for your kind comments. I have no difficulty in understanding each cetasika. I am only thinking about the classification of akusala cetasikas. But as you said, [There are many different ways of classifying akusala cetasikas and they each show different aspects.] Very true. And each classification has its own merits. In CMA, the classification of akusala cetasikas is more simple. It is of only two groups. (1) Unwholesome Universals [4] moha, ahirika, anottappa, uddhacca. (2) Unwholesome Occasionals [10] lobha, di.t.thi, maana, dosa, issaa, macchariya, kukkucca, thina, middha, vicikicchaa. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #109005 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Aug 4, 2010 5:38 pm Subject: The 3 Basics! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is Right Understanding of the 3 Facts! The Blessed Buddha once said: It is impossible, Bhikkhus and Friends, and cannot ever happen, that one possessed of right understanding should ever regard any phenomenon as really permanent ... or any phenomenon as lasting happiness ... or any phenomenon as an identical, unchanging, same, and own self... But it is quite possible, that an ordinary worldling may indeed have, entertain and act upon such naive, false and distorted beliefs...! <...> Source: Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 15:1-3 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm Understand the 3 Basics! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * ... #109006 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 3:38 am Subject: What I heard. Audio 2007-07-03, a. (part 1). nilovg Dear friends, This is a transcription from the audio, Bangkok, June, 2007. Khun Sujin: Bhikkhu Pannabahulo: Sujin: ****** Nina. #109007 From: "gr8fuldawg2010" Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 6:25 am Subject: Buddah images gr8fuldawg2010 Hi group, Whats up with all the different buddha images? I talked awhile ago about burning a candle and flowers and incense in front of the image of buddha. But I have been looking at images and there is all these different buddha images such as: Green Tara Buddha of Active Compassion, Manjushri The Buddha of Transcendent Wisdom, Medicine Buddha The Buddha of Healing, I thought buddha was a man not divine (supernatural)? And I thought there was only one buddha? Are these buddha's anything in thervada buddhism? I am a little confused? Help anyone? thanks Ryan #109008 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 5:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddah images upasaka_howard Hi, Ryan - In a message dated 8/5/2010 9:26:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gr8fuldawg@... writes: Hi group, Whats up with all the different buddha images? I talked awhile ago about burning a candle and flowers and incense in front of the image of buddha. But I have been looking at images and there is all these different buddha images such as: Green Tara Buddha of Active Compassion, Manjushri The Buddha of Transcendent Wisdom, Medicine Buddha The Buddha of Healing, I thought buddha was a man not divine (supernatural)? And I thought there was only one buddha? Are these buddha's anything in thervada buddhism? I am a little confused? Help anyone? -------------------------------------------------- These are not images (rupas) of the Buddha. They are representations of Mahayanist "celestial bodhisattvas" or "celestial buddhas." Some Mahayanists think of such as actual godlike beings, while other, more psychologically-oriented, Mahayanists consider them personifications of various supernal mental states or qualities. Manjushri, for example, represents supermundane wisdom, and Avalokiteshvara represents compassion. As regards actual buddha-rupas, there are many in the Theravada tradition, and some in Mahayana. The Buddha actually wanted NO depictions of him, and early on, the only extant representations were along the lines of a wheel, an empty circle, or two footprints on the ground, suggestive to me of vastness, impersonality, and ungraspable transcendence. -------------------------------------------------- thanks Ryan ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109009 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 10:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Forums farrellkevin80 Dear Nina: Nina: perhaps you could somehow combine this with dsg? For me, it would be too much, another forum. I take part of several already. But of course, up to you. Nina. Kevin: I understand completely Nina. No problem! It is a good idea to combine it with dsg too, but I wanted to get a little bit of a more diverse group, a more general Theravada site whereas this one has a more particular makeup for the most part all with students of Ajahn and what not. Thanks, Kevin #109010 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 10:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A post I made on Dhammawheel about wisdom in the Path of Purification farrellkevin80 Nina: My point was actually that it seems that there is a 'first', a certain order. First ruupa. But when reading on, we see as you mention: eighteen elements, aayatanas, etc. and these contain both naama and ruupa. Thus, it is not a rigid order one has to follow. What arises naturally, that is the question. From the beginning the anattaness of investigation, awareness, right understanding should be taken to heart. Even pariyatti regards the object appearing at the present moment. Before there is any stage of vipassanaa, there can be awareness, even weak, of a reality appearing now. That is the only way to learn more about its nature, I think. Nina. Kevin: I agree that insight does not choose objects, does not choose materiallity first and then mentallity and so on. Insight arises by conditions and knows objects, whatever those objects are. I am not trying to choose or to direct "vipassana". I know that cannot be done. From the text, however, it is clear to me that one can regard things in a certain way -- a purely mental exercise, conceptual. One knows all about nama and rupa and then one takes one of the five classifications given (first part of trunk) to regard phenomena, intellectually, even though it is not panna arising with sati and know the object, and regards things in that way because those classifications help refine conceptual wisdom. After a time of doing that, one moves on to the next one... understanding the conditions by which nama and rupa arise. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin The business of an intellectual is to think. Most people think religion is staring at the perfection of a rose bud. They don't understand the decay of the rose bud nor of the mind that admires it and then quickly decays. - me I never fall. Because strength of mind is divine over all. - MC Mr. Voodoo http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# ________________________________ #109011 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? ashkenn2k Dear Sukin I dont wish to join in at first and since we mention my name so I say some words.?? Yes for jhanas outside the dispensation, wrong view is latent as latency could only be eradicated by sotapanna.?? At the moment of jhanas, it is kusala so there is no wrong view but latency of wrong view exist. Exercise power over dhamma is not possible due to anatta of dhamma.?? We cannot change this characteristics of dhamma that is why we bound to?get old and die.? ?It does not mean we cannot condition the next citta?by prompting.of the present citta.? Panna or kusala could arise with cittas that is prompted or unprompted.? Dhamma is by nature anatta that does not mean that dhamma cannot be conditioned to arise by the present cause through prompting.? Just?like our interest or chanda in reading dhamma book or discussing will keep?prompting us to?carry on until?there are other dhamma that make us not to. ? It is a subtle difference between anatta and prompting by dhammas which is difficult to differentiate because one tends to equate prompting as control :-)) Cheers Ken O #109012 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 12:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? truth_aerator Hi Sukinder, all >Sukinder: This is when sitting, right? In other positions as well. Not just sitting. >S: And how do ideas such as stage 1, stage 2, methods etc. have >anything to do with understanding the present moment? One observes and silently observes/studies the presently arisen namarupa. Ven. Ajahn Brahm does talk quite a bit about satipatthana so he doesn't really teach only Samatha. He teaches lots of insights about no control, anicca, dukkha, anatta! With metta, Alex #109013 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 12:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro truth_aerator Hello Kevin, all, >K: Then, when kevin is sotapanna, "Kevin" knows that no arising >dhamma >is actually "him", yet even then he still regards a self --. >he just >knows that no dhamma is self. He can not >pinpoint where this self is and he knows that "he" is "freed". The >Arahant feels nothing of this, the Arahant knows all dhammas >correctly >because all fetters are removed. An Arahant has no conceit "I AM", and aryas up to Anagami have the conceit and feeling of I AM. However none of the Aryas regard anything as Self or possession of Self. ""Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.089.than.html With metta, Alex #109014 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 3:38 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Buddha images gr8fuldawg2010 Howard: The Buddha actually wanted NO depictions of him, and early on, the only extant representations were along the lines of a wheel, an empty circle, or two footprints on the ground, suggestive to me of vastness, impersonality, and ungraspable transcendence. -------------------------------------------------- Ryan: So if the buddha wanted no depiction of him why do people burn incense and candles before his image? Thanks Love, Peace & Happy Living be yours Ryan #109015 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 5:39 pm Subject: Re: Buddha images kenhowardau Hi Ryan (and Howard), --- Ryan: >So if the buddha wanted no depiction of him why do people burn incense and candles before his image? --- Good question! The only memorials the Buddha taught people to build were ones that would remind them of the three characteristics. However, he must have known they would inevitably want to build conventional shrines and monuments in his honour. I don't think there's any inconsistency there. The Dhamma has always been about understanding ultimate reality as we go about our normal everyday activities. Ken H #109016 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 5:10 pm Subject: Distractions Disturb Delight! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How to stop recurring Distracting Thoughts? 1: Redirect attention to a different advantageous object: Like when driving out a coarse peg from a piece of wood, using a fine peg, one can substitute and thereby replace : A: Desire for living forms with thinking on a disgusting rotting corpse... B: Desire for inanimate things with thinking on their impermanence... C: Aversion towards living beings with the mental release of friendliness... D: Aversion towards inanimate things with noting their composition... E: Delusion, doubt, uncertainty & confusion with thorough investigation... 2: Consider the Danger in thoughts mixed with hate, greed & ignorance: These thoughts of mine are disgusting, dangerous, bringing much misery now & later, just like a young man or woman is disgusted & humiliated, if somebody hang a rotting carcass of a snake, dog or human around their neck, so should one regard disturbing distractions! 3: Stopping all flow of thought by Non-Attention and Non-Reflection: Like a man not wishing to see close his eyes & turn away from the object. 4: Repeat reflection of the Root Cause of these Distractions: Searching for the reason of these mental afflictions can cure them: Like a running man wishing calm finding no reason to run, starts walking... Then finding no reason to walk, he sits down, finding no reason to sit, he lies down... Now cured! 5: Beating the evil mind down with the force of the good mind: By clenching the lower teeth against the upper teeth, and pressing the tongue up against the palate, like a strong man holds down a weak man by the shoulders so should one beat down mind with mind. Then these evil, ill & detrimental thoughts rooted in greed, hate, & ignorance are eliminated, and they vanish. By their evaporation mind settles down, becomes focused, concentrated and unified on the purely good thought! Attention Deficit occurs, when following after Distracting Thoughts! Source: Moderate speeches of the Buddha: Majjhima Nikaya 21: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts Full text and commentary is here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel021.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Distractions Disturb Delight! #109017 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 8:08 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Buddha images gr8fuldawg2010 Hi Ken, Ken: The only memorials the Buddha taught people to build were ones that would remind them of the three characteristics. Forgive Ken but what three charactaristics??? Peace, Love & Happy Living Ryan #109018 From: Sukinderpal Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 9:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? sukinderpal Hi Ken. Good to see you posting again. > I dont wish to join in at first and since we mention my name so I say > some > words. > I was hesitating about posting at all and more when thinking about mentioning you. ;-) > Yes for jhanas outside the dispensation, wrong view is latent as > latency could only be eradicated by sotapanna. At the moment of > jhanas, it is > kusala so there is no wrong view but latency of wrong view exist. > > Exercise power over dhamma is not possible due to anatta of dhamma. > We cannot > change this characteristics of dhamma that is why we bound to get old > and die. > It does not mean we cannot condition the next citta by prompting.of > the present > citta. > The present citta and cetasikas is conditioned by the previous citta no matter which type that one was. You know that I know this, so what is your point......? > Panna or kusala could arise with cittas that is prompted or unprompted. > And so too are some akusala cittas prompted or unprompted. > Dhamma is by nature anatta that does not mean that dhamma cannot be > conditioned > to arise by the present cause through prompting. > Whether the present citta is prompted or unprompted, it will condition the next citta by way of proximity and contiguity conditions, and this shows exactly the anataness. > Just like our interest or chanda in reading dhamma book or > discussing will keep prompting us to carry on > until there are other dhamma that make us not to. > Exactly, it is all about conditions, whether the citta is prompted or unprompted, with or without chanda, to read or not to read. All so anatta. ;-) > It is a subtle difference between anatta and prompting by dhammas which > is difficult to differentiate because one tends to equate prompting as > control :-)) > In reality, prompted and unprompted is about the difference between weak and strong, and so we should take care not to be taken in by any conventional idea that we may have in this regard. If we do, we may find ourselves invariably thinking that sometimes we need to talk ourselves to 'doing' things in order that panna or other kusala may be developed. Or that just because we think to do good, practice etc. we are on the right track. We need to remember that kusala of any kind including panna, arises because these arose in the past, and that if they do arise now, this accumulates and increases the chance of them arising in the future. This is regardless of whether the citta is prompted or not. True, different people have different accumulations, such that for some, thinking about developing kusala may actually condition kusala. However this is by NDS condition and because kusala has arisen in the past. Likewise for those who do not require to think in such a way, if kusala arises for them, this is by NDS condition and because of the accumulated kusala. Indeed this is the same with *all* nama dhammas including the akusala ones. So I think it is better to highlight this than to try and justify any arisen citta, whether these are prompted or not, because otherwise it may sound like we cling to a certain way of thinking about and doing things. And when this happens, it is then that objections with regard to the idea of "control" arises. ;-) Metta, Sukinder #109019 From: Sukinderpal Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? sukinderpal Hi Alex, > >Sukinder: This is when sitting, right? > > In other positions as well. Not just sitting. > The point Alex is this, that while we are still involved in ideas about this or that posture, activity, things to do and so on, we'd continue failing to understand that these are in fact concepts as against the reality of citta, cetasika or rupa arising now at each moment. In other words, you can't expect to have understanding of nama and rupa while entertaining thoughts about developing such kind of understanding while sitting a particular way, attending to certain objects etc. and at particular times. Put it another way, one posture or all postures, one situation or all situations, on the cushion or off the cushion, all these are concepts equally unreal and misleading if there is no understanding. Just as you can't understand visible object when thinking to concentrate on the monitor for the purpose, because it would exactly be 'thinking' which is the reality at the time, so too, when involved with ideas about 'doings'. Here understanding if it does arise, would happen not as a result of any intention to do, but in fact, in spite of it. > >S: And how do ideas such as stage 1, stage 2, methods etc. have > >anything to do with understanding the present moment? > > One observes and silently observes/studies the presently arisen namarupa. > Here again, stages, methods are concepts. However, to see the development of the Path as involving following certain methods and moving from one step to the next etc, this is reflection of the idea of control and misunderstanding about conditionality. One does not decide to sit and observe thinking that this is what practice is all about and then expect to understand anatta. In other words, there is no use trying to convince others that one understands anatta while being involved in such practices. In your statement above where you clearly are happy being vague, what I see is lack of interest in determining whether the citta is with right understanding or not and must therefore involve attachment instead. What after all is the difference between the 'observe' and 'silently observe'? And why the word "observe" to begin with? I see plenty of room for misunderstanding which you clearly don't see. > Ven. Ajahn Brahm does talk quite a bit about satipatthana so he > doesn't really teach only Samatha. He teaches lots of insights about > no control, anicca, dukkha, anatta! > So do you! But does this show that there is Right Understanding of what the Buddha's taught. I do too, but I'm sure that you don't think that I'm correct about what right practice is. ;-) As far as I am concerned, anyone who teaches 'formal meditation' must be wrong both about samatha as well as vipassana. Metta, Sukinder #109020 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 9:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddha images kenhowardau Hi Ryan, > what three characteristics??? > KH: I see you have provided a question mark for each one. :-) Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary has a very good answer (pasted below). Please ask the group any questions you have on it, there couldn't be a more important subject. Ken H ti-lakkhaṇa: the '3 charactcristies of existence', or signata, are impermanency (anicca, q.v.), suffcring or misery (dukkha, q.v.; s. sacca, dukkhatā), not-self (anattā, q.v.). "Whether Perfect Ones appear in the world, or whether Perfect Ones do not appear in the world, it still remains a firm condition, an immutable fact and fixed law: that all formations are impermanent, that all formations are subject to suffering, that everything is without a self'' (A. III, 134). "What do you think, o monks: Is corporeality (rūpa) permanent or impermanent? - Impermanent, o Venerable One. - Are feeling (vedanā), perception (sa??ā), mental formations (saṅkhāra) and consciousness (vi??āṇa), permanent or impermanent? - Impermanent, o Venerable One. "But that which is impermanent, is it something pleasant or painful? - It is painful, o Venerable One. "But, of what is impermanent, painful and subject to change, could it be rightly said, 'This belongs to me, this am I, this is my ego'? - No, Venerable One. "'I'herefore, whatever there is of corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness, whether past, present or future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or near, of all these things one should understand, according to reality and true wisdom: 'This does not belong to me, this am I not, this is not my ego' " (S. XXII, 59). "In one who understands eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and all the remaining formations as impermanent, painful and not-self, in him the fetters (saṃyojana, q.v.) are dissolved" (S. XXXV, 53). It is the full comprehension of the 3 characteristics by direct meditative experience which constitutes liberating insight. About their relation to the three gateways ot liberation', s. vimokkha I . #109021 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 10:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? farrellkevin80 All, Ken: Yes for jhanas outside the dispensation, wrong view is latent as > latency could only be eradicated by sotapanna. At the moment of > jhanas, it is > kusala so there is no wrong view but latency of wrong view exist. me: What is jhana but an impermanent moment. I have experience jahana -- three moments, lokottara - they are gone. All consciousness that arises is gone practically the moment it arises. Consciousness is not owned by a being. In fact, being is similar to a foul word. In this message one billion moments and more of consciousness arose and past (intentional usage of "past" instead of passed). Those moments arise without any prompting at all. Thinking they are a bieng or owned is like being robbed at gunpoint. Don't salute mara. Don't salute the delusion that arises again and again by believing in it, by being beguiled by it. Thinking they belong to a being is liked being robbed at gunpoint. None of those moments are me, I , or mine. They are just mentallity. It is similar to materiallity. It just arises and passes away. Mentallity is not like any being. P.S. I just wanted to say this about moments of jhana and all moments, in general, of consciousness. It is not really in response to your particular message. With metta. Take care, Kevin___________ With metta Kevin The business of an intellectual is to think. Most people think religion is staring at the perfection of a rose bud. They don't understand the decay of the rose bud nor of the mind that admires it and then quickly decays. - me I never fall. Because strength of mind is divine over all. - MC Mr. Voodoo Gangstarr, Skills: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KgtGs1ny0k&feature=av2n Mark Levin audio Rewind: http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #109022 From: Kevin F Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? farrellkevin80 All, I wrote: me: What is jhana but an impermanent moment. I have experience jahana -- three moments, lokottara - they are gone. All consciousness that arises is gone practically the moment it arises. Consciousness is not owned by a being. In fact, being is similar to a foul word. In this message one billion moments and more of consciousness arose and past (intentional usage of "past" instead of passed). Those moments arise without any prompting at all. Thinking they are a bieng or owned is like being robbed at gunpoint. Don't salute mara. Don't salute the delusion that arises again and again by believing in it, by being beguiled by it. Thinking they belong to a being is liked being robbed at gunpoint. None of those moments are me, I , or mine. They are just mentallity. It is similar to materiallity. It just arises and passes away. Mentallity is not like any being. P.S. I just wanted to say this about moments of jhana and all moments, in general, of consciousness. It is not really in response to your particular message. With metta. Take care, Kevin___________ _____________________ Kevin: P.S. Do I believe people cannot practice samattha in a wholesome way? no. Do I believe that wholesome cetasikas are unprofitablee for the arising of wisdom? no. Do I think people in this day and age can attain master of jhana? no. Do I think samattha if done correctly is not profitable? no. kevin ___________ With metta Kevin The business of an intellectual is to think. Most people think religion is staring at the perfection of a rose bud. They don't understand the decay of the rose bud nor of the mind that admires it and then quickly decays. - me I never fall. Because strength of mind is divine over all. - MC Mr. Voodoo Gangstarr, Skills: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KgtGs1ny0k&feature=av2n Mark Levin audio Rewind: http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #109023 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 3:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Forums nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 5-aug-2010, om 19:40 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > Kevin: I understand completely Nina. No problem! It is a good idea > to combine > it with dsg too, but I wanted to get a little bit of a more diverse > group, a > more general Theravada site whereas this one has a more particular > makeup for > the most part all with students of Ajahn and what not. ------ N: Ah, Sarah calls us dinosaurs, rare animals. I would think students of Ajahn are in the minority. We are all very different and this makes dsg interesting. Kevin, you always have good points and I find that your posts make me consider more the Texts I read. My conclusions may be different but that does not matter at all. Nina. #109024 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha images upasaka_howard Hi, Ryan - In a message dated 8/5/2010 6:39:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gr8fuldawg@... writes: Howard: The Buddha actually wanted NO depictions of him, and early on, the only extant representations were along the lines of a wheel, an empty circle, or two footprints on the ground, suggestive to me of vastness, impersonality, and ungraspable transcendence. -------------------------------------------------- Ryan: So if the buddha wanted no depiction of him why do people burn incense and candles before his image? ---------------------------------- I would say that it is mainly because many people want to express devotion through symbolic action. One could say that psychologically, it turns the mind towards the Buddha and might lead into what is called "Buddha- nussati" (or mindfulness of the Buddha). It is not something with great appeal to me personally, but for many folks it is important and perhaps quite useful depending on intention/motivation. --------------------------------- Thanks Love, Peace & Happy Living be yours Ryan ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109025 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 6:22 am Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro chandrafabian Dear Ken, Hi Fabian, ------------- <. . .> FABIAN: > Don't you think Buddhas and Arahants attain liberation? KEN H: Yes they attain liberation, but we have to remember when we say 'Buddha' 'arahant' - or any living being - that we are actually talking about the five khandhas. To the extent that we know the khandhas, or any nama or rupa that has arisen now, we also know the Buddha the arahants and everyone. ================================ FABIAN: Dear Ken, you got it right, I know you want to say anatta/no self, I know there is sotapanna but no one attain it, there is Sakadagami but none attain it, there is Nibbana but no one attain it right? But of course it is not what we are talking about. That's why I am asking you about liberation. <.....> KEN H: I suppose there could be several right answers. Is it liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth? FABIAN: You answer is correct, but it's not the answer I expect from you, what I mean the liberation is the liberation from the cause. The cause is attachment. <. . .> KEN H: Yes, but you and I have different understandings of the term 'practice' as it applies to satipatthana (or vipassana). I could repeat my previous question: who practises? who attains liberation? We both agree in principle that there is no self, but do we understand how there can be practice without a self? FABIAN: Do you have body Ken...? do you have feeling Ken...? do you have consciousness Ken...? Do you have thoughts Ken...? Do you have memory/perception Ken...? Can you practice with those aggregates Ken...? Who is reading my reply Ken...? Is it you or somebody else...? Or both? ============================================== <. . .> KEN H: I am not saying there shouldn't be any practice. There should be practice. But there is no one who practises, and no one who doesn't practice. And so there is no one who benefits from practising, and no one who suffers from not practising. FABIAN: I agree Ken, but it is you who read this reply right? KEN H: So it's a very different kind of practice. And the only factors that can lead to this kind of practice are the ones I listed in a previous post - association with wise friends, hearing the true Dhamma and wisely considering what we have heard. FABIAN: With due respect, please search again what is the meaning of wise friends (kalyana mitta). You said about wisely considering what we have heard. May I ask you, can you see the arising of your thoughts by considering? can you see the maturity of your thoughts by considering? Can you see the cessation of your thoughts by considering? Can you see the cause of the arising of your thoughts by considering? Can you see the process of your thoughts by considering? KEN H: When those factors have been established, we have the required conditions for right practice. And when right practice occurs, it will be in the form of a citta that experiences another conditioned dhamma with right understanding. FABIAN: I've told you few times, how do you have understanding of the taste of apple or appricot without tasting it...? KEN H: So that is the practice called satipatthana. At no stage does it involve any special focusing on selected objects, or sitting quietly "looking" for dhammas, or anything like that. FABIAN: I am sorry Ken, I think you are confused if you think learning Abhidhamma equal to practicing Satipatthana. You may learn about thought processes, but you will never see the thougth processes unless you practice Satipatthana/Vipassana. You may learn about cause and effect, but you will never see the cause and effect unless you practice Satipatthana/Vipassana. You may learn about about Nibbana, but you will never see Nibbana unless you practice Satipatthana/Vipassana. ==================================== <.....> KEN H: Concentration is definitely helpful in developing anything. But with samatha or vipassana bhavana it has to be right concentration. Right concentration is a nama and so it is conditioned to arise and fall away in a billionth of a second. A chess master, for example, has lots of ordinary concentration but not necessarily any right concentration. Someone who is developing samatha or vipassana has lots of right concentration but not necessarily any ordinary concentration. FABIAN: Please tell me what is your criteria of right concentration..? KEN H: And so we read in the suttas about a woman who had vipassana insight when she noticed she had burnt the curry. Or the man who attained vipassana insight while falling off a cliff! They both had very weak ordinary concentration, but very strong right concentration. FABIAN: Hmm.. interesting, would you tell me where did you get this story? There are sixteen Vipassana Insight up to Paccavekkhana nana, which nana does these woman and man had...? KEN H: That is always the way it happens - naturally in the course of daily life. It doesn't happen when someone tries to make it happen. FABIAN: Well Ken, it seems you don't really grasp the meaning of practicing, in practicing we are not suppose try to force, or to make up something, or hoping, practicing is just practicing, until all the condition matured and the insight would come up. If you don't practice to build up the condition to mature, how is insight would come up? It is like learning to swim by reading from books and hoping one day will become a champion swimmer by reading from books only, without practicing. ================================ <...> KEN H: You are referring to where I wrote: ". . . there were jhana meditators and jhana masters who could not even understand the Dhamma in theory, no matter how hard they tried. There were even some who were opposed to it. And, at the same time, there were householders and monks with no jhana experience who could practise satipatthana and vipassana - right up to the stage of arahantship." FABIAN: I'm not agree your statement a Jhana masters could understand Dhamma in theory if they learn. WHY...? I agree your following statement "There were householders and monks with no Jhana experience who could practice Satipatthana and Vipassana - right up to the stage of Arahantship. But this statement doesn't mean they don't have concentration. KEN H: I can't remember exactly where, but I have heard and read about those things. Do you recall reading about Jains, for example, who could practise jhana but could not understand the Dhamma - or even who were strongly opposed to it? Also, there was the obvious example of Devadattha, a jhana master who tried to kill the Buddha. FABIAN: "Doesn't want to learn Dhamma" have different meaning with "could not understand Dhamma". I'm sorry to say, you are incorrect to say Jhana masters could not understand Dhamma. KEN H: I am sure you will be able to find references to faithful Buddhist monks who could practice jhana, but not satipatthana. It's all due to different accumulations. Unless you are a Buddha, there is no way of telling who will be able to practise what. Ken H ================================== FABIAN: That is true some people easier to learn Jhana rather than Satipatthana, but some people easier to learn Satipatthana rather than Jhana. It's all depends on their inclination based on their acumulation kamma. Some people have no problems with both Some people could never practice both, let's hope it is not us. Mettacittena, fabian #109026 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 6:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro chandrafabian An Arahant has no conceit "I AM", and aryas up to Anagami have the conceit and feeling of I AM. However none of the Aryas regard anything as Self or possession of Self. "Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. " > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.089.than.html > With metta, > Alex THank you Alex, I agree with you. Mettacittena, fabian #109027 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 7:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A post I made on Dhammawheel about wisdom in the Path of Purification nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 5-aug-2010, om 19:45 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > I am not trying to choose or to > direct "vipassana". I know that cannot be done. From the text, > however, it is > clear to me that one can regard things in a certain way -- a purely > mental > exercise, conceptual. One knows all about nama and rupa and then > one takes one > of the five classifications given (first part of trunk) to regard > phenomena, > intellectually, even though it is not panna arising with sati and > know the > object, and regards things in that way because those > classifications help refine > conceptual wisdom. After a time of doing that, one moves on to the > next one... > understanding the conditions by which nama and rupa arise. -------- N: You emphasize intellectual understanding and it is a good point to consider what it is. It seems that the borderline between thinking about naama and ruupa and a beginning awareness of them is not always so evident. As you know Kh Sujin stresses the reality appearing at the present moment, and the importance of understanding when sati of just one naama or ruupa arises, and when there is only thinking. There is also sati of the level of thinking stemming from listening and reading. We often discussed this and it is good to consider this point. Perhaps when we read these classifications we should 'see through' them, remembering that they should not 'stay in the book' as Acharn often reminds us. In a previous post you spoke about the puirifications: Yes, this is a complicated subject and I know so little of them. I think that there cannot be any visuddhi, purification, without satipa.t.thaana. Not even siila visuddhi. I find 'Survey' of Kh Sujin always very helpful and I quote from Ch 31: ****** Nina. #109028 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 8:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A post I made on Dhammawheel about wisdom in the Path of Purification chandrafabian Dear Nina, I really agree with Kh. Sujin explanation, she clearly stated that concentration needed for citta visuddhi. And also in my opinion corresponding concentration needed for corresponding insight stages. Mettacittena, fabaian #109029 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 9:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? truth_aerator Hi Sukinder, all, >Suk: The point Alex is this, that while we are still involved in >ideas about this or that posture, activity, things to do No. Not in Ajahn Brahm teaching. The fact is that you can't avoid 4 postures, so one may as well develop understanding of namarupa as it occurs. > Put it another way, one posture or all postures, one situation or >all situations, on the cushion or off the cushion, all these are >concepts equally unreal and misleading if there is no >understanding. Who was arguing against understanding of namarupa in all its normal activities? Please explain to whom that caricature is applied. What teacher doesn't teach awareness of present moment as it occurs? Of course it is crucial to be discerning and frank with oneself not to mistake akusala for kusala. Again, which teacher doesn't teach it? With metta, Alex #109030 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 9:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? truth_aerator Dear Kevin, RobertK2, all, > Do I think people in this day and age can attain master of jhana? no. What about Stephen Snyder and Tina Rasmussen who are said to master 7 Jhanas (if not 8, I'll need to look in their book) that were taught and certified by Pa Auk Saydaw who bases his teachings on Visuddhimagga? They went through all the kasinas and mysteries described in VsM. book is: "Practicing the Jhanas: Traditional Concentration Meditation as Presented by the Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw " With metta, Alex #109031 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 11:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? farrellkevin80 Hi Alex, Alex:What about Stephen Snyder and Tina Rasmussen who are said to master 7 Jhanas (if not 8, I'll need to look in their book) that were taught and certified by Pa Auk Saydaw who bases his teachings on Visuddhimagga? They went through all the kasinas and mysteries described in VsM. book is: "Practicing the Jhanas: Traditional Concentration Meditation as Presented by the Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw " Kevin: I think the are are said to have gone through all eight and I think it was said about Tina that she attained, I paraphrase here: "mastery of all eight jhanas and also some other traiditional attainments". I am not sure that what they had was actual jhana. Kevin ___________ With metta Kevin The business of an intellectual is to think. Most people think religion is staring at the perfection of a rose bud. They don't understand the decay of the rose bud nor of the mind that admires it and then quickly decays. - me I never fall. Because strength of mind is divine over all. - MC Mr. Voodoo Gangstarr, Skills: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KgtGs1ny0k&feature=av2n Mark Levin audio Rewind: http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #109032 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 11:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? truth_aerator Hello Kevin, all, >Kevin: I think the are are said to have gone through all eight and I >think it was said about Tina that she attained, I paraphrase here: >"mastery of all eight jhanas and also some other traiditional >attainments". > > I am not sure that what they had was actual jhana. Well it was certified by the Pa Auk Sayadaw who is heavy into VsM. So it looked like they did master them. Who knows... So there are cases that *suggest* the possibility of Jhana mastery. With metta, Alex #109033 From: "lawstu_uk" Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 3:06 pm Subject: Question - The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena lawstu_uk Hi all, I have some questions regarding these two excerpts from the book 'The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena'. Chapter 6: And further, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, ....... Chapter 8: The “produced rupas” which each have their own characteristic are, as the “Visuddhimagga” (XVIII, 13) explains, “suitable for comprehension”, that is, they are objects of which right understanding can be developed. For example, visible object or hardness have characteristics which can be objects of awareness when they appear, and they can be realized by panna as they are, as non-self. The “unproduced rupas” are not “suitable for comprehension”. If one does not know this distinction one may be led to wrong practice of insight; someone may imagine that he can be directly aware of “unproduced rupas” which are not concrete matter, such as lightness of matter. My questions are: 1) what would those monks clearly comprehend in the practice of “clear comprehension” in the “Satipatthana Sutta”? Because Visuddhimagga says that unproduced rupas are not suitable for comprehension. Bodily intimation is an unproduced rupa. So I am unsure if those Bhikkhus actually clearly comprehend this rupa 'bodily intimation'? 2) Or rather, they practised clear comprehension on whatever phenomena occurred during those bodily activities, be it nama or rupa (hardness, temperature etc)? 3) or rather, what the visuddhimaga means is that those unproduced rupas are not suitable for beginners. And those Bhikkhus already reached some stages of insights and hence they could clearly comprehend 'bodily intimation'? Thanks. With metta, Andrew #109034 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 4:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? sukinderpal Hi Alex, You'd still have to explain several other things, but first this one: --- > Put it another way, one posture or all postures, one situation or >all situations, on the cushion or off the cushion, all these are >concepts equally unreal and misleading if there is no >understanding. Alex: Who was arguing against understanding of namarupa in all its normal activities? Please explain to whom that caricature is applied. What teacher doesn't teach awareness of present moment as it occurs? S: Are you saying that none of these teachers that you are defending teach formal meditation? Metta, Sukinder #109035 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 5:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? truth_aerator Hi Sukinder, all, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sukinderpal" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > You'd still have to explain several other things, but first this one: > --- > > Put it another way, one posture or all postures, one situation or >all > situations, on the cushion or off the cushion, all these are >concepts equally > unreal and misleading if there is no >understanding. > > Alex: Who was arguing against understanding of namarupa in all its normal activities? > Please explain to whom that caricature is applied. > > What teacher doesn't teach awareness of present moment as it occurs? > > > S: Are you saying that none of these teachers that you are defending teach formal meditation? > > Metta, > > Sukinder Please define what you mean by "formal" so that we are on the same page. If you mean rites & rituals, then please tell me what teachers teach them? I don't follow those teachers and neither do many meditators. They teach development of understanding and satipatthana. With metta, Alex #109036 From: Sukinderpal Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 6:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? sukinderpal Hi Alex, > Please define what you mean by "formal" so that we are on the same > page. If you mean rites & rituals, then please tell me what teachers > teach them? I don't follow those teachers and neither do many > meditators. They teach development of understanding and satipatthana. > We'll go on to what constitutes rites and rituals. But for now, what I consider 'formal meditation' is any activity such as sitting down in a particular way, with intention to observe / note / concentrate on one or more objects aimed at particular results. Also all this would not have been followed were there no suggestion from some teacher or other outside source that this is what 'practice' is. Metta, Sukinder #109037 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 6:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? truth_aerator Hi Sukinder, all, >A: Please define what you mean by "formal" so that we are on the >same > > page. If you mean rites & rituals, then please tell me what >teachers > > teach them? I don't follow those teachers and neither do many > > meditators. They teach development of understanding and >satipatthana. > > > > We'll go on to what constitutes rites and rituals. But for now, >what I consider 'formal meditation' is any activity such as sitting >down in a particular way, Try to be in a posture other than 4 main ones for long. Try not to engage in *any* activity... One will simply starve lying on the bed, but even this lying on the bed is an activity in one of the postures. Without intention one will not even move a finger, much less develop understanding. >with intention to observe / note / concentrate on one or > more objects aimed at particular results. Is that always wrong? Was Buddha and his disciples wrong to walk for a particular result? Doesn't one of our favourite sutta, satipatthana sutta, talk about 4 postures? Or sitting down crosslegged? > Also all this would not have been followed were there no suggestion >from some teacher or other outside source that this is what >'practice' is. It started with the Buddha. It was also taught in VsM. For example, Metta. VsM IX,1 "A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments* and learn the meditation subject. Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place." Anapanasati VsM VIII VIII,145. "'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, VIII,153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing. VIII,158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176; Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting place).42 [271] VIII,159. Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three seasons, suitable to humour and temperament,43 and favourable to the development of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation. Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. VIII,160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. ============ There are plenty of "should..." in the suttas and VsM. With metta, Alex #109038 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 6:52 pm Subject: Another interesting VsM quote truth_aerator Hello Sukinder all, >Su: what I consider 'formal meditation' is any activity such as >sitting down in a particular way, with intention to observe / note / >concentrate on one or more objects aimed at particular results. Also >all this would not have been followed were there no suggestion from >some teacher or other outside source that this is what 'practice' is. You better tell that to Ven. Buddhaghosa. [IF THE IMMATERIAL FAILS TO BECOME EVIDENT] XVIII, 15. [591] But if he has discerned materiality in one of these ways, and while he is trying to discern the immaterial it does not become evident to him owing to its subtlety, then he should not give up but should again and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality only. For in proportion as materiality becomes quite definite, disentangled and quite clear to him, so the immaterial states that have that [materiality] as their object become plain of themselves too." ================================================= What part of: "he should not give up but should again and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality only." VsM XVIII,15 you do not understand? It does talk about deliberate activity. With metta, Alex #109039 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 7:31 pm Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro kenhowardau Hi Fabian, ------- <. . .> F: > I know you want to say anatta/no self, I know there is sotapanna but no one attain it, there is Sakadagami but none attain it, there is Nibbana but no one attain it right? But of course it is not what we are talking about. That's why I am asking you about liberation. ------- I don't want to sound argumentative, but isn't anatta always what we are talking about in Dhamma study? "Anatta is the central doctrine of Buddhism, without understanding of which, a real knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible." (Buddhist Dictionary) People of all different philosophies can talk about liberation, but the Buddhist understanding of liberation is profoundly different. Therefore, if we find ourselves talking about liberation, or anything else, in the same way as other people do, then alarm bells should ring, "we have lost the way!" ---------------------- <.....> KH: > > We both agree in principle that there is no self, but do we understand how there can be practice without a self? FABIAN: > Do you have body Ken...? do you have feeling Ken...? do you have consciousness Ken...? Do you have thoughts Ken...? Do you have memory/perception Ken...? Can you practice with those aggregates Ken...? Who is reading my reply Ken...? Is it you or somebody else...? Or both? ---------------------- According to my understanding, all of those questions could be misleading. They will be good questions if both parties to the conversation are mindful of anatta, but if one or both of them has an idea of self, then they will be misleading. The fact is, there is no self that has no self. There are only dhammas that have no self. Only dhammas can practise or not practise. --------------------------------- <. . .> FABIAN: > I agree Ken, but it is you who read this reply right? --------------------------------- I am not sure what you mean by that. It is not another person who is reading it. So I will agree with you to that extent. But apart from that, I can't see what are trying to say. I wonder if we can agree with the following way of saying it: Visible objects are appearing at the eye-door where they are experienced by eye-cittas and by mind-cittas. Sanna recognises (or remembers) the visible objects to some extent. And so there follow many mind-door cittas in which there are concepts of what has happened. The overall concept is of a DSG reply from Fabian that is being read by KenH. ------------------------------- <. . .> FABIAN: > With due respect, please search again what is the meaning of wise friends (kalyana mitta). --------------------------------- Ultimately, of course, there are no people, and so there are no people who are kalyana mitta. The only ultimately real kalyana mitta are conditioned namas. In particular, they are panna (right understanding), sati (mindfulness) and other kusala cetasikas. And ultimately there is no one who associates with the kalyana mitta. There is just the citta and the other cetasikas that arise with them. -------------------------------------------- F: > You said about wisely considering what we have heard. May I ask you, can you see the arising of your thoughts by considering? --------------------------------------------- Without wanting to be pedantic, I should point out an inaccuracy in what you have just said. I think you are implying that a thought can be the object of satipatthana mindfulness. Actually, however, a thought is just a concept. It is not a dhamma. Thoughts don't arise, perform functions, and fall away. Only dhammas do that. And Satipatthana only knows dhammas. You should be careful when reading Buddhist books because many authors don't know this, and they list "thoughts" among the mental elements. They are actually mental concepts - very different! ---------------------------- F: > Can you see the maturity of your thoughts by considering? Can you see the cessation of your thoughts by considering? Can you see the cause of the arising of your thoughts by considering? Can you see the process of your thoughts by considering? ------------------------------ If I take out the word "thoughts" and replace it with a word that designates one of the conditioned dhammas, I will be able to answer your question. Yes. If I consider "visible object" for example, there can be an understanding in theory of how visible object arises, persists, and passes away - all in less than one billionth of a second. You are probably asking, however, if I can experience dhammas directly. In a way the answer is still yes; visible object (for example) is being experienced every time I have my eyes open. But does panna (satipatthana) arise at any of those moments? No, that is unlikely for a beginner. ---------------------------------------- <. . .> FABIAN: I've told you few times, how do you have understanding of the taste of apple or appricot without tasting it...? ----------------------------------------- If we are going to talk in those terms, I would describe right theoretical understanding as the "taste" of a conditioned dhamma. It is a faint taste that can gradually grow until it is unmistakeably the real thing (satipatthana). --------- <. . .> FABIAN: > I am sorry Ken, I think you are confused if you think learning Abhidhamma equal to practicing Satipatthana. --------- The texts refer to learning Abhidhamma as "pariyatti." Pariyatti is the panna that understands conditioned dhammas in theory. It gradually grows into patipatti, which is satipatthana, the panna that understands conditioned dhammas directly. And then into pativeda, which is complete vipassana (full penetration of the teaching right up to nibbana). --------------------------------------- FABIAN: > Please tell me what is your criteria of right concentration..? ---------------------------------------- Right concentration is a conditioned dhamma that arises with every moment of right understanding. They arise together, but right understanding is the leader. (Concentration, effort and the other vipassana cetasikas take their lead from right understanding.) --------------- KEN H: > > And so we read in the suttas about a woman who had vipassana insight when she noticed she had burnt the curry. Or the man who attained vipassana insight while falling off a cliff! They both had very weak ordinary concentration, but very strong right concentration. FABIAN: > Hmm.. interesting, would you tell me where did you get this story? There are sixteen Vipassana Insight up to Paccavekkhana nana, which nana does these woman and man had...? --------------- It regularly comes up in conversation at DSG, but I haven't kept a note of the reference. As I remember, the people in question had insight into one of the three characteristics, and then magga citta at the level of Stream-entry. ---------------------- KEN H: > > That is always the way it happens - naturally in the course of daily life. It doesn't happen when someone tries to make it happen. FABIAN: > Well Ken, it seems you don't really grasp the meaning of practicing, in practicing we are not suppose try to force, or to make up something, or hoping, practicing is just practicing, until all the condition matured and the insight would come up. ----------------------- I have been taught that practising is 'understanding a dhammas that is arising now.' The idea of waiting for a special place or a special activity does not apply. It can't apply! When you understand the whole world as "just the presently arisen conditioned dhammas," the idea of a special practice simply has no relevance. That sort of idea would apply only in a completely different reality. It would apply in a reality that contained something *more* than the presently arisen dhammas (some sort of permanent entity that continued on from one moment to the next). ------------- <. . .> FABIAN: > That is true some people easier to learn Jhana rather than Satipatthana, but some people easier to learn Satipatthana rather than Jhana. It's all depends on their inclination based on their acumulation kamma. Some people have no problems with both Some people could never practice both, let's hope it is not us. --------------- Let's hope not. But, in a way, I don't really think about it happening to me. I am content to know - right now - there are only dhammas, there is no me that satipatthana can happen to. Ken H #109040 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 9:50 pm Subject: Jhana moment is just mentallity farrellkevin80 Jhana is very high kusala. but isn't jhana moment just mentallity? It is the same as lobha, dosa, or mana, or any other mentallity that arises. What makes it so much different? Things are classified by kusala or akusala because a certain type of panna knows them as such. But aren't they all just the same -- just mentallity? It arises, it falls. It arises by conditions. It is not self-- not owned by a self, and individual or a person. All mentallity is just mentallity. All rupa is just rupa. Each one and the same, they arise and pass away. What is their characteristic? When sound arises it arises because of kamma. It is materiallity. The ear base organ is rupa, materiallity. It arises because of kamma too. Because the ear base arises, and because sound arises, hearing consciousness arises. This hearing consciousness is nama. It arises and it is gone, based on conditions. All materiallity and mentallity only arise because of conditions. The Buddha said the world is like an empty void. What is the world? What is the all? We should understand this all for Buddha implored us to understand it. Follows the Sabba Sutta in full: "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." *"As you say, lord,"* "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." So what is this all? Just nama and rupa arising because of conditions. All things are only these two things. Just nama and rupa. Which one arises now? ___________ With metta Kevin The business of an intellectual is to think. Most people think religion is staring at the perfection of a rose bud. They don't understand the decay of the rose bud nor of the mind that admires it and then quickly decays. - me I never fall. Because strength of mind is divine over all. - MC Mr. Voodoo Gangstarr, Skills: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KgtGs1ny0k&feature=av2n Mark Levin audio Rewind: http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #109041 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 10:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana moment is just mentallity farrellkevin80 Hi all, just a note. I wrote this post about jhana. We should understand that this also the way one who has jhana reflects, according to Visuddhimagga. Of course, a person with jhana can understand and reflect by seeing consciousness arising at the heart base, but it also says in the wisdom section that one *of dry insight or one with jhana previously developed* reflects this way.. and it describes the trunk of wisdom matching what I said below. >Jhana is very high kusala. but isn't jhana moment just mentallity? It is the >same as lobha, dosa, or mana, or any other mentallity that arises. What makes it so much different? Things are classified by kusala or akusala because a certain type of panna knows them as such. But aren't they all just the same -- just mentallity? It arises, it falls. It arises by conditions. It is not self-- not owned by a self, and individual or a person. All mentallity is just mentallity. All rupa is just rupa. Each one and the same, they arise and pass away. What is their characteristic? When sound arises it arises because of kamma. It is materiallity. The ear base organ is rupa, materiallity. It arises because of kamma too. Because the ear base arises, and because sound arises, hearing consciousness arises. This hearing consciousness is nama. It arises and it is gone, based on conditions. All materiallity and mentallity only arise because of conditions. The Buddha said the world is like an empty void. What is the world? What is the all? We should understand this all for Buddha implored us to understand it. Follows the Sabba Sutta in full: "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." *"As you say, lord,"* "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." So what is this all? Just nama and rupa arising because of conditions. All things are only these two things. Just nama and rupa. Which one arises now? ___________ ___________ With metta Kevin The business of an intellectual is to think. Most people think religion is staring at the perfection of a rose bud. They don't understand the decay of the rose bud nor of the mind that admires it and then quickly decays. - me I never fall. Because strength of mind is divine over all. - MC Mr. Voodoo Gangstarr, Skills: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KgtGs1ny0k&feature=av2n Mark Levin audio Rewind: http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #109042 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Aug 6, 2010 4:27 pm Subject: Not Agitated... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Released by Disengaged Non-identification! At Savatthi The Buddha once said: All form is transient, all feeling is transient, all perception is transient, all mental constructions are transient, all consciousness is transient... This transience is suffering! What is suffering is no-self! What is no-self should be seen as it really is with correct understanding in this very way: 'All this is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self!'... When one sees and understands this thus, as it really is with correct and penetrating understanding, then one maintains no views on what is past. When one maintains no more views regarding the past, then one neither maintains any views about the future. When one has relinquished all views about the future, then one is not being possessed by stubborn clinging... Having no trace of immovable clinging left, the mind becomes disillusioned regarding all form, all feeling, all perception, all mental constructions, and all consciousness. By that it is released from the 3 mental fermentations through detached non-clinging... By being released, the mind is all silenced! By being thus stilled, the mind becomes content... Being content, it is not agitated anymore... Being thus unagitated, one indeed attains Nibbana! Right there and then, one instantly understands: Ended is this process of rebirth, this Noble Life has been lived, done is all what had to be done, there is no state beyond this... <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya III 55-58 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * #109043 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 3:34 am Subject: DSG photo album sarahprocter... Dear Kevin, Fabian & all, Many thx, Kevin, for uploading your nice recent pics. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "chandrafabian" wrote: > Thank you for encouraging me to upload my picture, but unfortunately I have same problem with Alex, But if you browse around and ask brother google, you will see my picture. :)) ... S: Fabian, no need to let any problems with Alex get in the way of sharing your pic with us all:-)) If we all waited til we were in agreement with Alex, there'd be no pics in the album at all! As for the browsing around, I think it would be simpler if you were to just copy one here. If anyone has any difficulty in unploading a pic, James can certainly help - he can cater to any excuse. Even a driving licence pic sent in the mail to him is OK. He can even give a pic a "make-over" if requested - highlights to grey hair, muscles, remove wrinkles - whatever vanity requires! As Chris once wrote: All, as Chris once neatly put it: >C: The albums remind me of the metta sutta ... "Whatever breathing beings there may be. No matter whether they are frail or firm, With none excepted, be they long or big Or middle-sized, or be they short or small Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen, Or whether they are dwelling far or near" .... we're all here in the dsg photo album! Come and join us!< Metta Sarah ====== #109044 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 6:05 am Subject: Yahoo maintenance ptaus1 Hi all, Yahoo will be conducting some maintenance on Monday (9 August), so there might be some delays in messages showing up on the list at the time. Though, Yahoo said that delays (if any) shouldn't be more than 2-3 hours. Best wishes pt #109045 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 6:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana moment is just mentallity nilovg Dear Kevin, just one point. Op 7-aug-2010, om 7:14 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > When sound arises it arises because of kamma. It is materiallity. > The ear base > > organ is rupa, materiallity. ------ N: I think you meant to say, the hearing-consciousness is the result of kamma. Sound itself originates from citta or from temperature. Nina. #109046 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 6:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question - The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena nilovg Dear Andrew, Op 7-aug-2010, om 0:06 heeft lawstu_uk het volgende geschreven: > Chapter 8: > The “produced rupas†which each have their own > characteristic are, as the “Visuddhimagga†(XVIII, 13) > explains, “suitable for comprehensionâ€, that is, they > are objects of which right understanding can be developed. For > example, visible object or hardness have characteristics which can > be objects of awareness when they appear, and they can be realized > by panna as they are, as non-self. The “unproduced rupasâ > € are not “suitable for comprehensionâ€. If one does > not know this distinction one may be led to wrong practice of > insight; someone may imagine that he can be directly aware of â > €œunproduced rupas†which are not concrete matter, such as > lightness of matter. > > My questions are: > 1) what would those monks clearly comprehend in the practice of â > €œclear comprehension†in the “Satipatthana Suttaâ > €? > > Because Visuddhimagga says that unproduced rupas are not suitable > for comprehension. Bodily intimation is an unproduced rupa. So I am > unsure if those Bhikkhus actually clearly comprehend this rupa > 'bodily intimation'? > > 2) Or rather, they practised clear comprehension on whatever > phenomena occurred during those bodily activities, be it nama or > rupa (hardness, temperature etc)? > > 3) or rather, what the visuddhimaga means is that those unproduced > rupas are not suitable for beginners. And those Bhikkhus already > reached some stages of insights and hence they could clearly > comprehend 'bodily intimation'? -------- N: Bodily intimation is an asabhava ruupa, it is not a concrete ruupa such as hardness or motion. It is 'a certain change in the eight inseparable ruupas produced by citta' , it is ruupa as alteration. They are among the subtle ruupas: Vis. text: The nine beginning with the eye and the three elements excepting the water element, making twelve kinds in all, are to be taken as 'gross' because of impinging; the rest are 'subtle' because they are the opposite of that. What is subtle is 'far' because it is difficult to penetrate, the other is 'near' because it is easy to penetrate. Commentary to Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 77: How has the element of space and so on (that is not produced) the nature of materiality? He called them just materiality because they have the nature of being the separation, changeability and being characteristics of produced materiality, and just referred to that. N: remarks: Also the unproduced materiality is called rupa, because they are attributes of the rupas that are produced, thus, of concrete matter (ruupa-ruupa). They delimit the groups of rupa, they are changeability of rupa (the intimations that are a certain unique change of the elements, lightness etc.) and the four characteristics inherent in all rupas. Thus, as the Vis. text states, rupas can, in this way, be classified as fourfold. Concrete matter is one class, and the unproduced materiality is classified as threefold. ------ There can be awareness of any naama or ruupa that appears, no matter when speaking, or being silent, no matter when gesticulating, moving hands and arms. ----- Returning to your questions: Because Visuddhimagga says that unproduced rupas are not suitable for comprehension. Bodily intimation is an unproduced rupa. So I am unsure if those Bhikkhus actually clearly comprehend this rupa 'bodily intimation'? 2) Or rather, they practised clear comprehension on whatever phenomena occurred during those bodily activities, be it nama or rupa (hardness, temperature etc)? Yes, no 2 is correct. 1): Learning about the details of bodily intimation helps to see that it is conditioned, no self who speaks. Why should we try to select this subtle rupa as object of awareness? ------ Nina. #109047 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A post I made on Dhammawheel about wisdom in the Path of Purification nilovg Dear Fabian, Op 6-aug-2010, om 17:49 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina, I really agree with Kh. Sujin explanation, she clearly > stated that concentration needed for citta visuddhi. > And also in my opinion corresponding concentration needed for > corresponding insight stages. ------- N: It is especially understanding of the level of satipa.t.thaana that condiitons citta visuddhi. This reminds me of your other post I did not answer yet: N: This refers to right concentration that is the proximate cause of insight. A proximate cause can arise together with the reality it is the proximate cause for. When stages of insight have arisen, pa~n~naa has become stronger and so has concentration. There is no need to try to become concentrated first in order to make pa~n~naa grow. Whatever happens does so because of the proper conditions. ------- Nina. #109048 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 2:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana moment is just mentallity upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Kevin) - In a message dated 8/7/2010 9:12:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Kevin, just one point. Op 7-aug-2010, om 7:14 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > When sound arises it arises because of kamma. It is materiallity. > The ear base > > organ is rupa, materiallity. ------ N: I think you meant to say, the hearing-consciousness is the result of kamma. Sound itself originates from citta or from temperature. Nina. =============================== What does sound arising from temperature mean? In what way or sense is there such arising? (If we think about it, our experience shows sound to arise from "air", i.e., from motion.) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109049 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? ashkenn2k >> Yes for jhanas outside the dispensation, wrong view is latent as >> latency could only be eradicated by sotapanna. At the moment of >> jhanas, it is >> kusala so there is no wrong view but latency of wrong view exist. >> >> Exercise power over dhamma is not possible due to anatta of dhamma. >> We cannot >> change this characteristics of dhamma that is why we bound to get old >> and die. >> It does not mean we cannot condition the next citta by prompting.of >> the present >> citta. >> > >The present citta and cetasikas is conditioned by the previous citta no >matter which type that one was. You know that I know this, so what is >your point......? > KO:? you forget present citta condition next citta :-) chanda, vittaka, viriya, ekagatta and the other dhammas can condition other dhammas in the next citta.? There is a big difference that previous citta condition the present citta and the present dhamma condition the next citta. >> Panna or kusala could arise with cittas that is prompted or unprompted. >> > >And so too are some akusala cittas prompted or unprompted. KO:? definitely :-) isnt dhamma wonderful >> Dhamma is by nature anatta that does not mean that dhamma cannot be >> conditioned >> to arise by the present cause through prompting. >> > >Whether the present citta is prompted or unprompted, it will condition >the next citta by way of proximity and contiguity conditions, and this >shows exactly the anataness. KO:? if prompted or not prompted is not impt, why bother to explain in the Abhidhamma.??Promixity and contiguity are just conditions but not determining dhamma that affects whether the next citta is kusala or akusala.? So dont think citta arise naturally,?the only citta that arise naturally is sense cittas that arise due to kamma and object while the rest are not, aksuala or kusala depends whether there is wise attention.? And wise attention dontt come naturally, they are through reading, investigatng and thinking.? ?Cheers > >> Just like our interest or chanda in reading dhamma book or >> discussing will keep prompting us to carry on >> until there are other dhamma that make us not to. >> > >Exactly, it is all about conditions, whether the citta is prompted or >unprompted, with or without chanda, to read or not to read. All so >anatta. ;-) KO:? anatta is not equal to natural :-).? Anatta is just a nature of dhamma > >In reality, prompted and unprompted is about the difference between weak >and strong, and so we should take care not to be taken in by any >conventional idea that we may have in this regard. If we do, we may find >ourselves invariably thinking that sometimes we need to talk ourselves >to 'doing' things in order that panna or other kusala may be developed. >Or that just because we think to do good, practice etc. we are on the >right track. We need to remember that kusala of any kind including >panna, arises because these arose in the past, and that if they do arise >now, this accumulates and increases the chance of them arising in the >future. This is regardless of whether the citta is prompted or not. KO:? who is talking about conventional idea, we are all talking about dhamma now,?? Hmm you should read more on the characteristics of mindfullness and what conditions it to arise :-)? Also how object comes to the mind by intrusion and one more I forget. > >True, different people have different accumulations, such that for some, >thinking about developing kusala may actually condition kusala. However >this is by NDS condition and because kusala has arisen in the past. >Likewise for those who do not require to think in such a way, if kusala >arises for them, this is by NDS condition and because of the accumulated >kusala. Indeed this is the same with *all* nama dhammas including the >akusala ones. So I think it is better to highlight this than to try and >justify any arisen citta, whether these are prompted or not, because >otherwise it may sound like we cling to a certain way of thinking about >and doing things. And when this happens, it is then that objections with >regard to the idea of "control" arises. ;-) KO:? accumulations does not equate to present condition, it is just a probability game and not determining.? It is dhamma that arise at the moment that is the determining.???A cruel man can be kind.? One cannot exercise power over dhamma does not equate one cannot direct the mind because there are dhammas for directions.?? So one can direct ones thought does not mean it is control or exercise power over it.?? Not easy for people like you and Sarah or Ken H who fell all hints of direction or intentions are self.? cheers Ken O #109050 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 7:10 am Subject: What I heard. from audio, 2007-07-03, a. part 2. nilovg Dear friends, Jon: Sujin: It is not trying to, but it is the development of understanding. That is why there has to be the understanding or knowledge from hearing, so that there can be conditions for direct awareness right now. It has to be very natural. The mind-door process cittas follow upon the sense-door process cittas, but usually the mind-door process cittas have ignorance, they are akusala cittas. However, there can be right understanding instead; sammaa-sati and sammaa-di.t.thi can arise after the sense-door process cittas naturally. If that would not be the case there would not be the right Path. There is not the right Path when cittas are conditioned or motivated by the idea of self all the time. This may be even just a little, but it is there. Pa~n~naa can see micchaa-di.t.thi (wrong view) or attaanudi.t.thi. This has to be completely eradicated. There should be understanding that all are dhammas and that no one can condition their arising. How can anyone get rid of lobha without understanding? Lobha always follows. One is talking about words one heard but there is no beginning to really understand with right awareness. Realities arise and fall away so fast, how can there be anyone here? There are just visible object and thinking, sound and thinking. If there is awareness one may begin to see that visible object is not different from what appears at this moment. Usually there is no opportunity to understand this, we can just think about it as only visible object. But when it is the right time for awareness and understanding we know that it appears now as no self, no one at all. Sound appears as sound , visible object appears as visible object, hardness appears as hardness. ****** Nina. #109051 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 7:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? ashkenn2k Dear Kevin >me: >What is jhana but an impermanent moment. I have experience jahana -- three >moments, lokottara - they are gone. All consciousness that arises is gone >practically the moment it arises. Consciousness is not owned by a being. In >fact, being is similar to a foul word. In this message one billion moments and >more of consciousness arose and past (intentional usage of "past" instead of >passed). Those moments arise without any prompting at all. Thinking they are >a bieng or owned is like being robbed at gunpoint. Don't salute mara. Don't >salute the delusion that arises again and again by believing in it, by being >beguiled by it. > >hinking they belong to a being is liked being robbed at gunpoint. None of >those moments are me, I , or mine. They are just mentallity. It is similar to >materiallity. It just arises and passes away. Mentallity is not like any >being. > KO:? hmm, dhamma is already by nature, anatta, anicca and dukkha.? We cannot see this nature because of?moha.? We think there is a self, it is due to sakkayaditthi.? Keep it simple cheers Ken O #109052 From: Kevin F Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 8:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? farrellkevin80 Dear Ken, KO: hmm, dhamma is already by nature, anatta, anicca and dukkha. We cannot see this nature because of moha. We think there is a self, it is due to sakkayaditthi. Keep it simple What exactly are you saying? Are you trying to imply that jhana citta is something more than a simple moment of impermanent nama? Something different by nature than say any other citta? Yes, it is very high degree kusala, but other than that, it's just an impermanent, not-self moment arising because of conditions. Thanks, Kevin #109053 From: Kevin F Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 9:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana moment is just mentallity farrellkevin80 Dear Nina: Nina: I think you meant to say, the hearing-consciousness is the result of kamma. Sound itself originates from citta or from temperature. Nina. Kevin: Thanks Nina. Sound is produced by those factors. But doesn't it appear to us because of kamma (the ripening of)? Kevin ___________ #109054 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 4:04 pm Subject: Tibetan Buddhism gr8fuldawg2010 Hi Group, I am pretty sure most of you know, if not all of you right now know that I am very new to Buddhism. I am definitely interested in theravada buddhism, it seems more factual, and less blind faith then the others. Sorry if anyone is offended. Anyway, I got a e-mail from someone, about a lady that does a sitting group in the theravada tradition not to far from where I live. The only problem is she does it monday evenings when I am working. There is a Tibetan Buddhist place also by where I live and I could go to that. It is in the mornings on the weekends. Which I am not working then. My question is I tried to look up the differences, and am not sure if I totally get it. I noticed alot of buddhists sects, welcome eachother. Anyway with me being new to buddhism and interested in theravada buddhism what are peoples thoughts. Any thoughts on Tibetan Buddhism, and or any thoughts on the differences? Even more so, What do you think about a beginner such as myself wanting to learn more about theravada buddhism, but going to be a part of Tibetan Buddhism? The truth is I don't personally know any Buddhists. I have never been a part of anything that has anything to do with buddhism. All I know is what I have read and learned online. My wife is not buddhist or my kids nor do they want to be. So I think it would be good for me to be around other people with similar beliefs. Peace, Love, & Happiness Ryan #109055 From: Kevin F Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 4:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tibetan Buddhism farrellkevin80 Hi Ryan, Ryan wrote: There is a Tibetan Buddhist place also by where I live... _______ It is great if you like magic, spells, chanting, incantations, stories about Buddhas existing after death, himalayan mysticism and so forth. But for practically ending suffering, I don't know how good it is... Not only is the magic not particularly good, it is bound up with ideas of various eternally existing Buddhas and so on. Quite a strange religion, in fact. There are many forms of magic my friend, but the "real" magic is insight wisdom which cuts through the defilements. I have been a Tibetan Buddhist. You will spend more time doing rites to dispel obstacles and making prayers for wisdom than you will learning about the mind. And when you do learn about the mind, it will be from altered and adjusted teachings usually written by other Indian masters or by Tibetan lamas. I have respect for all of them, of course. But I am not a fan. Kevin #109056 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 4:23 pm Subject: RE: [Friends_of_the_Dhamma] Tibetan Buddhism gr8fuldawg2010 After I wrote this, I found a really good website on the differences. They seem pretty huge. I just think there is no way I can go to a Tibetan Buddhist place. I agree really with only the threravada tradition, it seems that I would struggle pretty hard in a Tibetan place. Although It seems like the same person who sent me the link for the lady here in Bend Oregon that he also sent me two other links. Which I must have accidently deleted. I am sorry who ever you where that I forgot your name, but if you get this can you please send it to me again. Maybe one of the other two links you gave me would work. Thanks, sorry to trouble everyone, and then find the answer myself, but I would still be curious to see what everyones thoughts are, on Tibetan Buddhism, and the like. Peace, Love & Happiness Ryan #109057 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 4:29 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Tibetan Buddhism gr8fuldawg2010 Kevin, Thanks, I am definitly not interested in that. As I said before I have a hard time believing in anything to do with blind faith!! That is what I like most about Theravada Buddhism, is it seems to really work. It seems that it can be practiced and proven without blind faith. And so called "magic or miracles", which I do not believe in. I tend to be more of a realist. It works or it doesn't. I just didn't know alot about tibetan buddhism so thanks for sharing your opinions. I know I have already figured out I am not interested. But still would like to hear others thoughts, thanks for sharing yours. Peace. Love & Happiness be yours Ryan #109058 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 4:33 pm Subject: Beyond Joy! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Sense Joys, Happiness, Release & Beyond! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are joys of the flesh, there are joys not of this world, & there are rapturous joys far beyond even such subtle unworldly joys ... There is happiness of the flesh, there is a happiness not of this world, & there is exquisite bliss far beyond even such subtle unworldly happiness! There is indifference of the flesh, there is Equanimity not of this world, and there is a serenity far beyond even such subtle unworldly Equanimity ! There is satiety of the flesh, there is a mental release not of this world, and there is a liberation far beyond even such subtle unworldly release ... And what, bhikkhus, are then these simple joys of the flesh? There are these five strings of sense-pleasure. What five? Visible forms experiencable by the eye ... Hearable sounds experiencable by the ear ... Smellable odours experiencable by the nose ... Tastable flavours experiencable by the tongue ... Touchable objects experiencable by the body ... All are attractive, captivating, desirable, irresistible, lovely, agreeable, tempting, pleasing, sensually enticing, seductive, alluring, & tantalizing! These are the 5 strings of sense-pleasure. Joy that arises from these five strings of sense-pleasure: This is simply the Joy of the flesh ... Blissful is being without passions in this world, Blissful is the overcoming of all sense-desires! Udana II, 1 <...> Prince Siddhattha realizes the empty folly of sense pleasure... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [235-7] section 36:11 On Feeling: Vedana. Joys beyond this world ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * #109059 From: Kevin F Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 6:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tibetan Buddhism farrellkevin80 Hi Ryan, Ryan: Thanks, I am definitly not interested in that. As I said before I have a hard time believing in anything to do with blind faith!! That is what I like most about Theravada Buddhism, is it seems to really work. It seems that it can be practiced and proven without blind faith. Kevin: Hi Ryan. The other thing is that you must see your lama, who is your "guru" as a *fully enlightened Buddha all the time* no matter what he does. These are part of the samaya vows you take when you take any empowerment at all. This is an essential part of their path. If the Guru does any action, you should see it as enlightened actiivity, whether good or bad and have pure vision. If you want to study it though, it is your choice. I think you've come to the right place here though. All the best, kevin ___________ #109060 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 7:11 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Tibetan Buddhism gr8fuldawg2010 Hi Kevin, Kevin: If you want to study it though, it is your choice. I think you've come to the right place here though. Ryan: Study through, no not to much, but for instance what you just shared about the guru is interesting. Like I said I believe more in evidence, not magic. Speaking of studying things through though, I really like Thich Nhat Hanh, I know he is not theravada, but Just reading his stuff and listeining to him, is amazing. Such wonderful insight. Kevin: The business of an intellectual is to think. Most people think religion is staring at the perfection of a rose bud. They don't understand the decay of the rose bud nor of the mind that admires it and then quickly decays. - me I never fall. Because strength of mind is divine over all. - MC Mr. Voodoo Ryan: Now that's what I am talking about! Love it! Thanks, Peace, Love & Happiness Ryan #109061 From: Kevin F Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 9:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tibetan Buddhism farrellkevin80 Dear Ryan: Ryan: Speaking of studying things through though, I really like Thich Nhat Hanh, I know he is not theravada, but Just reading his stuff and listeining to him, is amazing. Such wonderful insight. Kevin: Ryan, many teachers may seem inspirational. This even goes for non Buddhist teachers like Deepak Chopra. But what is the content of what they teach? Does it really deal with reality? Just because a teacher seems nice words, or what he says seem loving and compassionate, always check it with the Buddhas teachings. The Buddhist teachings are realistic, but sometimes they are not always beautiful and elegant. Just because something seems inspirational does not mean it leads the actual and true cessation of suffering. Be wary of these teachers. Look deeply, not just on the surface. The Buddhas teachings are the most realistic of them all, and lead to true detachment. Test these teachers teachings against this. Be wise. All the best, Kevin ___________ #109062 From: Sukinderpal Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? sukinderpal Hi Alex, > >A: Please define what you mean by "formal" so that we are on the >same > > > page. If you mean rites & rituals, then please tell me what >teachers > > > teach them? I don't follow those teachers and neither do many > > > meditators. They teach development of understanding and >satipatthana. > > > > > > > We'll go on to what constitutes rites and rituals. But for now, > >what I consider 'formal meditation' is any activity such as sitting > >down in a particular way, > > Try to be in a posture other than 4 main ones for long. > > Try not to engage in *any* activity... One will simply starve lying on > the bed, but even this lying on the bed is an activity in one of the > postures. Without intention one will not even move a finger, much less > develop understanding. > Perhaps if you didn't break up the sentence such unnecessary argument wouldn't come up which only acts as a distraction. > >with intention to observe / note / concentrate on one or > > more objects aimed at particular results. > > Is that always wrong? Was Buddha and his disciples wrong to walk for a > particular result? > Did they sit, stand etc. with right understanding of all the realities that appeared? If they did, would they then think to sit in a particular way with the aim of having understanding arise? On the other hand if there is ignorance now of what appears through any of the six senses, should any intention associated with future results arising at the time be taken seriously? > Doesn't one of our favourite sutta, satipatthana sutta, talk about 4 > postures? Or sitting down crosslegged? > It does, but mentioned for the same reason as with everything else in the sutta, such as eating, dressing up, meditation on the body parts, anapanasati and so on. The underlying aim being the need to understand the nama and rupa appearing through one of the six senses. The Buddha referred to all the conventional activities which the bhikkhu were involved in from day to day, why not take note of what is the common? Why focus on the particular 'concept' of sitting posture with the leg crossed? Why highlight breath when the wind element, the fire element and the earth element appears during other activities as well? > > Also all this would not have been followed were there no suggestion > from some teacher or other outside source that this is what 'practice' is. > > It started with the Buddha. It was also taught in VsM. > NO, it started with someone who read the Dhamma with wrong view and other people who heard and did the same. > For example, Metta. VsM IX,1 > "A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among these, > if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments* and learn the > meditation subject. Then, when he has done the work connected with the > meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself > comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place." > A description of conditions, when understood does not lead to "trying to do / follow", after all this would be a contradiction. Understanding elements is knowing that it is these that have proximate causes and perform particular functions, including when there is self view which conditions ideas about a 'self' who needs to do this or that in order that certain results occur. > Anapanasati VsM VIII > VIII,145. "'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the > root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs > crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, > VIII,153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies > that he has found an abode favourable to the development of > concentration through mindfulness of breathing. > VIII,158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest > possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests > characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all > that is forest' (Ps.i,176; Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five > hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone > to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, > secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty > place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode > (resting place).42 [271] > > VIII,159. Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three > seasons, suitable to humour and temperament,43 and favourable to the > development of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., > indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness > nor to agitation. Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., > to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the > in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. > > VIII,160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs > fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed > the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting > end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and > sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by > moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind > becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, > attains to growth and increase. > ============ > > There are plenty of "should..." in the suttas and VsM. > Yes, 'should' implying also what 'should not' as in what is of value as against what is not. And what is it that is of value ? Development of kusala of all kinds but most of all Right Understanding now of whatever that appears through any one of the six doorways. And what is of no value and in fact harmful? Akusala of all kinds but more particularly Self View and Wrong Understanding which conditions ideas about things to do, including that which goes by the name of 'formal meditation'. Metta, sukinder #109063 From: Sukinderpal Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 9:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Another interesting VsM quote sukinderpal Hi Alex, > >Su: what I consider 'formal meditation' is any activity such as > >sitting down in a particular way, with intention to observe / note / > >concentrate on one or more objects aimed at particular results. Also > >all this would not have been followed were there no suggestion from > >some teacher or other outside source that this is what 'practice' is. > > You better tell that to Ven. Buddhaghosa. > > [IF THE IMMATERIAL FAILS TO BECOME EVIDENT] > XVIII, 15. [591] But if he has discerned materiality in one of these > ways, and while he is trying to discern the immaterial it does not > become evident to him owing to its subtlety, then he should not give > up but should again and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, > and define materiality only. For in proportion as materiality becomes > quite definite, disentangled and quite clear to him, so the immaterial > states that have that [materiality] as their object become plain of > themselves too." > ================================================= > > What part of: > > "he should not give up but should again and again comprehend, give > attention to, discern, and define materiality only." VsM XVIII,15 > you do not understand? It does talk about deliberate activity. > Yes, were Ven. Buddhaghosa here today, he'd at least set the record straight and we wouldn't need to be involved in such kind of arguments. But as suggested many times, if you'd read any of what he has written as description of the way things are rather than as prescription of things to do, there would be detachment rather than attachment which necessarily accompanies ideas about following this or that practice. The former leads to better understanding conditionality and anatta, whereas the latter only leads to further attachment to 'self' and belief in the ability to "make things happen". A heavy burden indeed! Metta, Sukinder #109064 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Aug 7, 2010 10:02 pm Subject: Re: Another interesting VsM quote gazita2002 Hallo Alex, Sukin and all, this 'should/should not' came up for discussion in a group of dhamma friends and the conclusion was that 'should do' is better than should not do - and this was in relation to doing good deeds eg giving something useful and benefical to someone. I think this is how the comment from Vis is used. The example given by Buddhagosa is about a person already developing some state of wisdom [I apologise here, bec I'm not clear whether it is in regards to development of samatha or vipassana, ] however, I dont think it matters for my explanation. > Hello Sukinder all, > > >Su: what I consider 'formal meditation' is any activity such as >sitting down in a particular way, with intention to observe / note / >concentrate on one or more objects aimed at particular results. Also >all this would not have been followed were there no suggestion from >some teacher or other outside source that this is what 'practice' is. > [IF THE IMMATERIAL FAILS TO BECOME EVIDENT] > XVIII, 15. [591] But if he has discerned materiality in one of these ways, and while he is trying to discern the immaterial it does not become evident to him owing to its subtlety, then he should not give up but should again and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality only. Asita: here conventional language is used bec. what other language can be used? This is where IMO 'should' is better than 'shouldnot'. Let us not forget that in reality ,this is not a being, a person but a changing moment by moment citta, cetasikas, and rupa, where eneryg/viriya could be used instead of 'trying' which is a conventional term which gives the idea of a person trying. Mayb encouragement to just be aware of that that appears, rather than that that does not appear, is being given here? For in proportion as materiality becomes quite definite, disentangled and quite clear to him, so the immaterial states that have that [materiality] as their object become plain of themselves too." > ================================================= > > What part of: > > "he should not give up but should again and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality only." VsM XVIII,15 > > you do not understand? It does talk about deliberate activity. Asita: remember, no being to do 'deliberate activity' but jst cittas, cetasikas and rupas, where there jst might be enuff wisdom to continue to be aware of materiality [rupa] patience, courage and good cheer, azita #109065 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 12:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? ashkenn2k Dear Kevin >What exactly are you saying? Are you trying to imply that jhana citta is >something more than a simple moment of impermanent nama? Something different by >nature than say any other citta? Yes, it is very high degree kusala, but other >than that, it's just an impermanent, not-self moment arising because of >conditions. KO:??All dhammas expect nibbana is by nature like that, be it jhanas, aksuala or kusala.? Jhanas arise?because of dhammas and not just conditions alone, conditions just show the relationships between dhammas.? It is?jhana cetasikas?that condition jhanas, conditions are supporting factor but not crucial.? DO talks about dhamma and relationship of conditions of dhammas.? It cannot be explained without dhammas.? dhammas?are the one that cause the samasara, conditions explain the causes and conditions on how these dhamma work to keep us in samasara.? But then without conditions, one cannot explain anatta fully :-). Isn't dhamma exciting. I hope i dont confuse you further. cheers? Ken O #109066 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 1:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sound. was: Jhana moment is just mentallity nilovg Hi Howard, Op 7-aug-2010, om 15:38 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What does sound arising from temperature mean? In what way or sense is > there such arising? (If we think about it, our experience shows > sound to > arise from "air", i.e., from motion.) ------ N: When we hear the sound of thunder, there is a mighty concussion, and the element of heat operates here, it originates sound. Visuddhimagga ch XIV, .55. ' Sound has the characteristic of impinging on the ear. Its function is to be the object of ear-consciousness. It is manifested as the resort of that too. It is of various kinds as 'drum sound, tabor sound' (Dhs.621) and so on.' Thus, when there is a concussion of hardness on hardness, there is sound. We read in the Atthasaalinii (Expositor, p. 441) : -------- Nina. #109067 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sound. was: Jhana moment is just mentallity nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 7-aug-2010, om 18:08 heeft Kevin F het volgende geschreven: > Kevin: Thanks Nina. Sound is produced by those factors. But doesn't > it appear > to us because of kamma (the ripening of)? ----- N: The hearing-consciousness and the following vipaakacittas of receiving-consciousness, and investigating-consciousness experience sound because of kamma. The conditions are just right for kamma to produce such vipaaka. Nina. #109068 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tibetan Buddhism nilovg Dear Ryan, Op 8-aug-2010, om 1:29 heeft Ryan Brawn het volgende geschreven: > I just didn't know alot about tibetan buddhism so thanks for > sharing your opinions. I know I have already figured out I am not > interested. But still would like to hear others thoughts, thanks > for sharing yours. ------ N: Kevin explained very well that you have to verify what different people teach for yourself, that you have to be realistic. You want to learn more? Then ask questions here, ask, ask. That is the way to learn. You are already here on dsg, so you could use the opportunity to learn more on Theravada. Do you want to find out more about your mind? Nina. #109069 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sound. was: Jhana moment is just mentallity upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/8/2010 4:22:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 7-aug-2010, om 15:38 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What does sound arising from temperature mean? In what way or sense is > there such arising? (If we think about it, our experience shows > sound to > arise from "air", i.e., from motion.) ------ N: When we hear the sound of thunder, there is a mighty concussion, and the element of heat operates here, it originates sound. --------------------------------------------- Yes, good. That is one example: The physics story is that the heat causes rapid expansion of air - so this is temperature conditioning air/motion, which conditions sound. (The motion involved is critical, though.) Likewise, citta involving volition causes hand motion with knuckles striking a door , a co-occurrence of the hand motion (air) and door resistance (earth), resulting in waves of air compression and rarefaction (a type of motion that physicists consider to BE sound), and this producing heard sound. What is most key, even in the example of lightning and resultant thunder, is motion. ------------------------------------------ Visuddhimagga ch XIV, .55. ' Sound has the characteristic of impinging on the ear. Its function is to be the object of ear-consciousness. It is manifested as the resort of that too. It is of various kinds as 'drum sound, tabor sound' (Dhs.621) and so on.' Thus, when there is a concussion of hardness on hardness, there is sound. --------------------------------------------- Yes, certainly. The waves of compression and rarefaction through air or other materials are carried into the ear bones, and the rest of the story is in the field of biology, especially neurology. My point, though, as Buddhaghosa seems to support here, is that sound follows most fundamentally from "air" (motion), not temperature. Actually, heat reduces to molecular motion in physics, thus making even temperature subsidiary to motion. Think of rubbing ones's hands together to warm them on a cold winter day by friction. Here we have motion (air) plus the surface resistance (earth) of friction producing heat. OTOH, one can say that the "heat" of electrical impulses led to the hand motion. So, the interaction of great elements is multiway and complex, and so is their conditioning of derivative rupa. It seems to me that to emphasize temperature as condition for sound is to overplay a minor matter. -------------------------------------------- We read in the Atthasaalinii (Expositor, p. 441) : -------------------------------------------- That is rather vague as far as I can follow it. For one thing, I don't understand the identification of "caloric" with "physical". All rupa is physical, not just heat. And the omission of motion here is odd. Also, what is an "intelligible sound"? Speech? Yes, that consists of consciousness-originated sound. Other categories of sound also originate from consciousness, though, like the sound of a glass breaking that was thrown in anger against a wall. The matter is complex. Overall, my main point in all this that to emphasize sound coming from temperature is to emphasize something quite minor compared to sound coming from air, i.e., motion. --------------------------------------------- -------- Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard P. S. Not that any of this has much to do with the goal of the Dhamma, th ough! :-) Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109070 From: Kevin F Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 8:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sound. was: Jhana moment is just mentallity farrellkevin80 Nina, Kevin: Thanks for that clarification Nina. Nina: The hearing-consciousness and the following vipaakacittas of receiving-consciousness, and investigating-consciousness experience sound because of kamma. The conditions are just right for kamma to produce such vipaaka.___________ With metta Kevin The business of an intellectual is to think. Most people think religion is staring at the perfection of a rose bud. They don't understand the decay of the rose bud nor of the mind that admires it and then quickly decays. - me I never fall. Because strength of mind is divine over all. - MC Mr. Voodoo Gangstarr, Skills: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KgtGs1ny0k&feature=av2n Mark Levin audio Rewind: http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# #109071 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 8:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? truth_aerator Hello Sukinder, all, > > >A: Please define what you mean by "formal" so that we are on the >same > > > > page. If you mean rites & rituals, then please tell me what >teachers > > > > teach them? I don't follow those teachers and neither do many > > > > meditators. They teach development of understanding and >satipatthana. > > > > > > > > >SU: We'll go on to what constitutes rites and rituals. But for >now, > > >what I consider 'formal meditation' is any activity such as >sitting > > >down in a particular way, > > > > Try to be in a posture other than 4 main ones for long. > > > > Try not to engage in *any* activity... One will simply starve >lying on > > the bed, but even this lying on the bed is an activity in one of >the postures. Without intention one will not even move a finger, >much less develop understanding. > > > >SU: Perhaps if you didn't break up the sentence such unnecessary >argument wouldn't come up which only acts as a distraction. Please explain what you've meant. I've asked a reasonable question, can one develop understanding without being in any major/minor posture? Why did Satipatthana even talk about Postures? Why did VsM did talk about posture such as "sitting crosslegged" ? You are throwing lots of distractions, please answer the questions. Same with VsM. It does say things to be done and things to be avoided. Rather than assert your statement which flies in the face of VsM, please explain your position. In #109063 You say that "were Ven. Buddhaghosa here today, he'd at least set the record straight and we wouldn't need to be involved in such kind of arguments." WHy didn't he just write the above in VsM that one "should not adopt this and that posture. That one should not intentionally do X,Y,Z for understanding to arise". I understand and fully agree that one should do things WITH understanding and that Understanding is of crucial importance. Actions don't have to be done under delusion and even the Buddha adopted this and that postures. Even Arahants did this and that. ================= "A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments* and learn the meditation subject. Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place." VsM IX,1 Ten Impediments: A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." -VsM III, 29 ====== VIII,145. "'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, VIII,153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing. VIII,158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176; Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting place).42 [271] VIII,159. Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three seasons, suitable to humour and temperament,43 and favourable to the development of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation. Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. VIII,160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. =========================================== With metta, Alex #109072 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 8:35 am Subject: Re: Another interesting VsM quote truth_aerator Dear Asita, Sukinder, all, >Asita: remember, no being to do 'deliberate activity' but jst >cittas, cetasikas and rupas, where there jst might be enuff wisdom >to continue to be aware of materiality [rupa] That is the standard "argument" used here. I don't argue that a person can be analyzed in cittas, cetasikas, rupas, namarupa, khandha ayatana, dhatu and so on. A car can also be theoretically disassembled into millions of component parts. This doesn't mean that car doesn't function. This doesn't mean that one doesn't need to avoid pedestrians and traffic lights. None of the "ultimate language" change the fact of conventional behavior (ex: don't drive into pedestrians or through a busy intersection on red light) Kusala and akusala actions do occur. Even though they are fully conditioned it doesn't change the fact that they do occur. A systematic development for one with enough accumulations does occur. "he should not give up but should again and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality only." VsM XVIII,15 > > [IF THE IMMATERIAL FAILS TO BECOME EVIDENT] > > XVIII, 15. [591] But if he has discerned materiality in one of these ways, and while he is trying to discern the immaterial it does not become evident to him owing to its subtlety, then he should not give up but should again and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality only. > With metta, Alex #109073 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 9:01 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Tibetan Buddhism gr8fuldawg2010 Nina, Nina: Do you want to find out more about your mind? Ryan: I am confused? If you mean because I asked about tibetan buddhism, I would say in a sense it is to learn more about therevada buddhism. Being learning the differences and so on. If I offended anyone on asking about it, I apologize. Other then that I don't understand why you are asking if I would like to learn more about my mind? Peace, Love & Happiness be yours Ryan #109074 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 11:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the ALL actually? ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >>A:What if one trips over the rock without seeing the rock prior? So if >I >am >>not thinking about a rock, I cannot trip over one? >> >> >> KO: Hmm how do you know it is a rock if you dont see what you trip, >it >can be >> >>a tree log :-). It is hardness you feel, and this hardness >can be >any thing >>rock, trees or furniture > >One can see another person trip over a rock, or one can learn that after the >fall. KO: your statement are different from your earlier questions where if one trips. Now you are saying one can see other trip, that the rock is thinking through the visbile citta that sees the visible objects and piece up by sanna. I thought I have explain on the part where one can learn after the fall. > >As for concepts vs reality. Some say that since wholes are made of parts, wholes > >do not exist. So ultimately speaking there are no pedestrians, no cars, no >traffic lights. They exist only “conventionally” . This brings to paradoxes. KO: It is not paradoxes, it is because we dont see the nature of dhamma. What we see as cars, traffic lights are just because of our condition thinking. Does that exist 500 years ago. Yes they exist as mental thoughts through thinking. Cars, traffic lights do not condition our next bhavana. But dhamma like craving does, kamma does because they exist and they are real. >1) Can one really believe in this ultimate truth? KO: yes if you understand dhamma and you will realise, it is just the paramatha dhamma at work. All things like eating, sleeping and liking pleasant things are all because of dhammas. Such convetional actions cannot arise without dhamma. >2) Can one fully act that belief out? Just try to drive without seeing cars, >pedestrians or traffic lights. Why worry about running over something that >doesn’t exist (pedestrians) by the means of non-existent cars? KO: Because you do not understand the teachings on paramatha dhamma, you think car is exist. You dont see cars, car is a constructed by sanna and thinking. You only see pixels of colour of the car which is pieced up by the thinking and associated with sanna just like a monitor which pictures are just pixels. Car is just a jig saw puzzle of visible objects piece up by thinking. Because running over them is akusala and this causes kamma. Hiri and ottappa are the dhammas that keep us in order. Exist as mental constructs but that do not mean we could do what we like. And if one causes kamma through concepts, it is still kamma. A concept can be a condition but does not mean it is real. >3) Is this sort of teaching useful to cut down all craving? KO: If you understand paramatha dhamma, it will cut down craving because you understand what you crave is just dhamma. It is not cars, houses that is the craving, it is the craving that is the source of craving. It is not I that is the source of craving, it is craving that is the source of craving. You investitage the source, the cause, you will slowly understand craving arise because of appropriate causes and condtions and it leads to suffering. Will you then have more craving if you understand it more and more of the nature of craving. > >Do you see the big practical problem with following such a belief? Some may say >that there are two truths. Conceptual truth states that pedestrians do exist, >ultimate truth say that they do not exist. This seems a bit contradictory to me. > >Two contradictory statements cannot be >X cannot equal not-X. KO: I dont see a problem. It is you who are not open minded and investigate dhamma in terms of paramatha dhamma. If one live ones life in paramatha dhamma, one will not have this problem. As I said in my earlier paragraphs, it is just dhamma when you think you are reading, speaking or walking. Without dhammas, it is impossible to do all these. > >The whole argument that “since wholes are made of parts, thus wholes do not >exist” is not very convincing. What prevents wholes existing as san.khata dhamma? > >Since different wholes have different functions, they have to functionally >exist. A big rock has a different function and use than a car. > KO: There is no need for me to argue. It is up to you whether you like to be open minded and investiage more. More in terms of dhamma and not concepts. Then you will understand what I mean. > >*note: I do not deny the existence aggregation of aggregates, sense bases, 18 >elements, etc. I question the metaphysical assumptions of non-existence despite >the diverse functions being seen. The Buddha didn’t deny the emperic world or >emperic personality, what he did reject was metaphysical assumptions. Suffering >is experiential, not metaphysical, thus its solution is within the experiential. > KO: are you saying there are other aggregates that exist out of the five, Did you see Buddha mention, cars, trees, grasses, rocks as aggregates or he mention feelings, material, sanna, citta and other cetasikas as aggregates >By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left >undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no > >one can purify another. Dhp 165 >Attana- hi katam. pa-pam., attana- sam.kilissati; Attana- akatam. pa-pam., attana-va >visujjhati; Suddhi- asuddhi paccattam., na-ñño aññam. visodhaye. > >One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With >oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain. >Atta- hi attano na-tho, ko hi na-tho paro siya-; Attana- hi sudantena, na-tham. labhati > >dullabham.. - Dhp 160 >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.12.budd.html > >The problem of craving is because we ignore the truths that craving causes >suffering, impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and not-Self. > > >The suttas are full of references to empirical self (not metaphysical!). > KO: Self is used for teaching purposes. He has no wrong view of self. Understanding dhamma does not stop us from living in the conventional world or use conventional ideas and languages. Understanding dhamma is clear comprehension of dhamma in the conventional world, the use of conventional speech or actions or concepts Cheers Ken O #109076 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 3:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the ALL actually? truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, > >>A:What if one trips over the rock without seeing the rock prior? >So if >I am not thinking about a rock, I cannot trip over one? > >> > >> > >> KO: Hmm how do you know it is a rock if you dont see what you >trip, it can be a tree log :-). It is hardness you feel, and this >hardness >can be >any thing rock, trees or furniture > > > A: One can see another person trip over a rock, or one can learn >that after the fall. > >KO: your statement are different from your earlier questions where >if one trips. If there were no rock and person, no one could trip over it. Just because one doesn't see or know something it doesn't mean that certain function doesn't exist. Person may be ignorant about kamma, but it doesn't prevent it from happening. This is my humble belief: Knowledge (or naming an object) and object are different things. Even if one doesn't theoretically know about something, it doesn't mean that that something doesn't occur. One simply cannot name it. >KO:Now you are saying one can see other trip, that the rock is >thinking through the visbile citta that sees the visible objects and >piece up by sanna. I thought I have explain on the part where one >can learn after the fall. Just because one cannot name something (has no knowledge of it) it doesn't mean that that object doesn't have a function. >KO: It is not paradoxes, it is because we dont see the nature of >dhamma. What we see as cars, traffic lights are just because of our >condition thinking. Does that exist 500 years ago. Please don't mistake language for physical function. Just because one may name car "a cookie" it doesn't make that car function like a cookie. No matter how much you call a car, "airplane", it won't fly. > Yes they exist as mental thoughts through thinking. The NAMES, CONCEPTS and DESIGNATION exist as agreed convention between people. But the function or physical properties of an object doesn't depend on name. No matter how much you call a sharp object "blunt", it still will be sharp. Its physical properties remain the same no matter how you call it. The wholes as wholes do exist, and different wholes have different functions. Cars do this (ex: drive), airplanes do that (ex: fly). >KO: Because you do not understand the teachings on paramatha >dhamma, you think car is exist. I see a logical fallacy of equating a name (or word) with function or physical properties that have nothing to do with that name. A different word does change its function if people agree on different usage. However no matter if you call sweet taste to be sour or not, and sour taste to be sweet, it will NOT change the actual taste. Wholes do not exist as indivisible parts, nicca, atta, sure. But as a functional and divisible conglomeration of parts, they do exist. With metta, Alex #109077 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 4:12 pm Subject: Small correction + addition truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, >Old: A different word does change its function if people agree on >different usage. New: A different word does change its linguistic usage if people agree on a different usage. What I am trying to say is: that we can agree upon different meaning of the words. Even if we do not know something, its physical properties remain the same. About fallacious analysis "none of these parts is a chariot, thus chariot doesn't exist" is incorrect due to a logical trick. Of course one is not going to find a whole in its parts. It doesn't mean that that whole doesn't exist. It only doesn't exist as indivisible and permanent atom. But of course one drives the car and flies the airplane. Because we crave, there is dukkha (either directly or indirectly, now or later). We crave not because of metaphysical assumptions of existence but because of the *happiness* and pleasure that we think it can give us. An alcoholic doesn't drink because he thinks that alcohol exists inherently. He emotionally suffers, doesn't know any other way out, and (wrongly) thinks that drinking will help him. In his miscalculations the benefit outweighs the risk (ex: liver cirrhosis, drinking under influence and running over pedestrians, etc). With metta, Alex #109078 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 6:27 pm Subject: Rescue into Salvation! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Rescue into Salvation is Possible! There may be no tomorrow, But do not fear! Do not feel sorrow. Salvation is near. If one puts in the effort, And does good deeds, Then one should not worry; Their kamma harbours good seeds. Purity is attainable, If one simply tries. Impurity is easier, But that's no surprise. Keep your focus, And see your goal. Always be mindful, Don't fall in a hole. Always be vigilant, And never surrender. Keep doing what's good, Let kamma be your tender. Kindly shared by our friend Kevin Walker. (on the path) <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * #109079 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 6:27 pm Subject: My dear brother and sister Hermits bhikkhu.sama... Amongst White Clouds A quiet journey into the hidden lives of China?s forgotten Zen Buddhist hermit tradition. http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/amongst-white-clouds/ With both humor and compassion :-) Solitude is Bliss for any one who knows and sees the Dhamma! ?Observe your mind. Habits are your old problems? Habits are your old ignorance!? The one called master By doing evil, one defiles oneself; by avoiding evil, one purifies oneself. Purity and impurity depend upon oneself: no one can purify another! Dhammapada 165 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #109080 From: Sukinderpal Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 7:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? sukinderpal Hi Ken O, I am responding as I read this post for the first time, and so have not given it much consideration. But I hope it is OK. > >> Exercise power over dhamma is not possible due to anatta of dhamma. > >> We cannot > >> change this characteristics of dhamma that is why we bound to get old > >> and die. > >> It does not mean we cannot condition the next citta by prompting.of > >> the present > >> citta. > >> > > > >The present citta and cetasikas is conditioned by the previous citta no > >matter which type that one was. You know that I know this, so what is > >your point......? > > > > KO: you forget present citta condition next citta :-) chanda, > vittaka, viriya, > ekagatta and the other dhammas can condition other dhammas in the next > citta. > There is a big difference that previous citta condition the present > citta and > the present dhamma condition the next citta. > S: You had mentioned the present citta conditioning the next, and so I thought to complete it by saying that this citta was conditioned by the previous one. But I must be missing something and not getting your point? Anyway as of now, I don't see any difference at all between the two in terms of there being just paramatha dhammas arising to perform their particular functions including their conditioning one other. And while I take it that even this preset citta has already fallen away after doing all that it does, hence no need to think anymore about it, your highlighting the fact of it conditioning future cittas appear therefore to be reflection of some degree of clinging to the idea of control. Of course I base this also on previous discussions where you tried to give justification for someone's decision to practice samatha meditation. We've been through quite a bit of discussion there as well, and so I'll probably be repeating myself, but I'll try to add something here: My mention of NDS condition was to take away the importance given to 'intention' as determining the arising of any kusala cittas in the future. Not that intention is not important, but since it arises with all kusala and akusala cittas, what needs to be known then is the roots. And since we don't usually know this including when we think in terms the present intention, chanda, viriya and so on, as leading to some future good, it makes sense then that we should just leave such kind of thinking be. The point being always to understand the *present moment*, which after all is followed by what then is another present moment on and on. In other words, it does not matter if whether this present citta is kusala or akusala since it has already arisen and fallen away, and when it is time for whatever may be the result of this citta, that too needs to be known for what it is, namely as conditioned and already fallen away. > >> Dhamma is by nature anatta that does not mean that dhamma cannot be > >> conditioned > >> to arise by the present cause through prompting. > >> > > > >Whether the present citta is prompted or unprompted, it will condition > >the next citta by way of proximity and contiguity conditions, and this > >shows exactly the anataness. > > KO: if prompted or not prompted is not impt, why bother to explain in > the > Abhidhamma. > S: Of course it is important. But the implications which you appear to give it is what the problem is. > Promixity and contiguity are just conditions but not determining > dhamma that affects whether the next citta is kusala or akusala. > S: There is no doubt that kusala and akusala now accumulates and that the former is preferable. Even this very consideration was conditioned and already fallen away. Yet there is some other reality all the time and the challenge is always to the understanding of it at any level. Your considerations seem to want me to be 'concerned' about that which has in fact already arisen and fallen away by conditions...... > So dont think citta arise naturally, the only citta that arise naturally > is sense cittas that arise due to kamma and object while the rest are > not, aksuala or kusala depends whether there is wise attention. > S: Vipaka cittas and javana cittas are very different by nature, but no matter, they all arise by conditions beyond control. And when someone reminds us about 'natural', it is when we appear to forget this fact and talk as if there was some degree of control with regard to certain types of cittas, as I think you are leaning towards here. > And wise attention dontt come naturally, they are through reading, > investigatng and thinking. > S: Perhaps you have in mind a different meaning of the word 'natural' from what I do. > >> Just like our interest or chanda in reading dhamma book or > >> discussing will keep prompting us to carry on > >> until there are other dhamma that make us not to. > >> > > > >Exactly, it is all about conditions, whether the citta is prompted or > >unprompted, with or without chanda, to read or not to read. All so > >anatta. ;-) > > KO: anatta is not equal to natural :-). Anatta is just a nature of > dhamma > S: :-) You use the word 'nature' here, so perhaps you only need to read my use of the term in the same way that you use it. > >In reality, prompted and unprompted is about the difference between weak > >and strong, and so we should take care not to be taken in by any > >conventional idea that we may have in this regard. If we do, we may find > >ourselves invariably thinking that sometimes we need to talk ourselves > >to 'doing' things in order that panna or other kusala may be developed. > >Or that just because we think to do good, practice etc. we are on the > >right track. We need to remember that kusala of any kind including > >panna, arises because these arose in the past, and that if they do arise > >now, this accumulates and increases the chance of them arising in the > >future. This is regardless of whether the citta is prompted or not. > > KO: who is talking about conventional idea, we are all talking about > dhamma > now, Hmm you should read more on the characteristics of mindfullness > and what > conditions it to arise :-) Also how object comes to the mind by > intrusion and > one more I forget. > S: And so what! However intricate those conditions may be and how the difference in kind of influence / conditioning, does it not all still come down to the present moment being all there is and that it has already arisen and fallen away beyond control? > >True, different people have different accumulations, such that for some, > >thinking about developing kusala may actually condition kusala. However > >this is by NDS condition and because kusala has arisen in the past. > >Likewise for those who do not require to think in such a way, if kusala > >arises for them, this is by NDS condition and because of the accumulated > >kusala. Indeed this is the same with *all* nama dhammas including the > >akusala ones. So I think it is better to highlight this than to try and > >justify any arisen citta, whether these are prompted or not, because > >otherwise it may sound like we cling to a certain way of thinking about > >and doing things. And when this happens, it is then that objections with > >regard to the idea of "control" arises. ;-) > > KO: accumulations does not equate to present condition, it is just a > probability game and not determining. > S: A probability game if you are playing the game of abstraction. ;-) However in terms of the reality of the "present moment" it is a *truth* that this moment is conditioned already, including by accumulated tendencies. > It is dhamma that arise at the moment that is the determining. > S: Yes, yes. And already fallen away by the time there is any awareness of it! > A cruel man can be kind. One cannot exercise power > over dhamma does not equate one cannot direct the mind because there > are dhammas > for directions. > S: I believe in the possibility of developing kusala, but I don't believe in control over any dhammas. > So one can direct ones thought does not mean it is control or > exercise power over it. Not easy for people like you and Sarah or > Ken H who > fell all hints of direction or intentions are self. > S: I react to suggestions of 'self' and I could sometimes be mistaken. But you do too, don't you? Are you so sure about your own perceptions? What if in fact you are blinded by your own underlying need for control to not recognize the same when expressed by others? I hope I haven't misunderstood you too much. Metta, Sukinder #109081 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Aug 8, 2010 10:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > Alex:What about Stephen Snyder and Tina Rasmussen who are said to master 7 > Jhanas (if not 8, I'll need to look in their book) that were taught and > certified by Pa Auk Saydaw who bases his teachings on Visuddhimagga? > > They went through all the kasinas and mysteries described in VsM. > > book is: > "Practicing the Jhanas: Traditional Concentration Meditation as Presented by the > Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw " > > Kevin: I think the are are said to have gone through all eight and I think it > was said about Tina that she attained, I paraphrase here: "mastery of all eight > jhanas and also some other traiditional attainments". > > I am not sure that what they had was actual jhana. > > Kevin > ___________ > Dear Alex to attain jhana one is completely removed from sense desire. This is from their website: One-on-One Spiritual Guidance http://www.jhanasadvice.com/id4.html """For more extended or ongoing inquiries, we offer individual spiritual guidance / coaching sessions to dharma practitioners by phone. The focus of these calls is your dharma practice and how it informs your worldly life. Because we are also both professional coaches, we can also offer you tools with which you can further understand your personality structure and how it both supports your practice, and also manifests as hindrances. . Spiritual guidance is offerred via phone calls of either 30 minutes or 1 hour, either as needed or on a regularly scheduled basis. Regularly scheduled calls can be every two weeks or monthly. One-on-one sessions are offered on a sliding scale of $75 to $150 per hour. For half an hour, the fee is $45 to $70. Payment is made in advance via PayPal, using the button below. Please enter the amount appropriate for your session""" Robert #109082 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tibetan Buddhism nilovg Dear Ryan, Op 8-aug-2010, om 18:01 heeft Ryan Brawn het volgende geschreven: > Ryan: I am confused? If you mean because I asked about tibetan > buddhism, I would say in a sense it is to learn more about > therevada buddhism. Being learning the differences and so on. If I > offended anyone on asking about it, I apologize. Other then that I > don't understand why you are asking if I would like to learn more > about my mind? ------ N: You do not offend anyone by your questions. You did not get what I meant by my question. What I meant was: we can learn about our citta by discussing what it is, what kinds there are etc. We all can learn more about citta, that is why it is a good subject for discussion. Nina. #109083 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sound. was: Jhana moment is just mentallity nilovg Hi Howard, Op 8-aug-2010, om 14:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > P. S. Not that any of this has much to do with the goal of the > Dhamma, though! :-) ------- N: It has, it is very important. More important than it may seem at first. It all helps to have correct understanding of conditions, and to become detached from the idea that realities belong to a self. ------- > N: When we hear the sound of thunder, there is a mighty concussion, > and the element of heat operates here, it originates sound. > --------------------------------------------- > H:Yes, good. That is one example: The physics story is that the heat > causes rapid expansion of air > What is most key, even in the example of lightning and resultant > thunder, is motion. > ------------------------------------------ N: This was a very coarse example I gave and it is necessary to go into the details of paramattha dhammas. Just as the Vis. example of drum sound. The point is to show that there are different sounds and they have the characteristic of loudness, in a weaker or stronger degree. Sound is not what we always thought, neither are motion or wind. You use explanations of science but this is an approach different from the Abhidhamma. Motion or the element of wind is the tiniest ruupa that always arises together with the other inseparable ruupas in a group: with solidity, temperature (or heat), cohesion, colour, odour, flavour, nutritive essense. Sound is also accompanied by the se ruupas. I was 'hearing' the clattering of cups Lodewijk was taking out of the dishwasher. We may imagine: now these cups touch each other and here is the element of motion producing sound. This is not correct. There is the experience of sound, but on account of hearing this, there is immediately thinking of cups clattering. That is only a mental picture and so is the idea of the knocking of the cups together. It has nothing to do with the element of motion, the tiniest ruupa arising in a group. The teachings are very subtle and we should not believe that we can already clearly see what conditions sound in this case. It is first necessary to know very clearly what sound is, just sound, not mixed with any concept, not mixed with naama. ------- > > H: > We read in the Atthasaalinii (Expositor, p. 441) : qualities of matter have how many origins?...Sound [object of > hearing] originating from the caloric [i.e. physical] order and > consciousness is the one which has two origins. Among sounds, > unintelligable sounds originate from the caloric order, intelligable > sounds originate from consciousness.> > -------------------------------------------- > That is rather vague as far as I can follow it. For one thing, I don't > understand the identification of "caloric" with "physical". All > rupa is > physical, not just heat. And the omission of motion here is odd. -------- N: As to the physical order, sound that is not originated by citta is meant here, I think. ------- > H: Also, what > is an "intelligible sound"? Speech? Yes, that consists of > consciousness-originated sound. Other categories of sound also > originate from consciousness, > though, like the sound of a glass breaking that was thrown in anger > against > a wall. ------ N: Here we have to differentiate. The second example of glass breaking is not sound originated by citta. Analysing the sound itself, apart from the story, this is sound originated by heat. It does not matter that there was a whole story before of someone who was angry. We just investigate the sound itself. ----------- > H: The matter is complex. > Overall, my main point in all this that to emphasize sound coming from > temperature is to emphasize something quite minor compared to sound > coming > from air, i.e., motion. > --------------------------------------------- > N: It is complex, since it is not quite obvious that heat > originates sound, not motion. But if we think of the groups of > ruupa and the ephemeral nature of ruupa it may become clearer. > Both ruupa and the conditioning factor of heat are present for an > infinitely short moment. Gone already before we realize it. Still, it is important to have the details correct. Otherwise we mix all the time realities and stories about realities. What I learnt: all ruupas not connected with the body originate from temperature. The ruupas connected with the body can originate from kamma, citta, nutirion or temperature, depending on the types of ruupa. ------ P.S. Lodewijk sends his greetings to you. Nina. #109084 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in... upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Alex) - In a message dated 8/9/2010 1:53:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear Alex to attain jhana one is completely removed from sense desire. ----------------------------------------------------- I presume you mean at the moment of attainment. -------------------------------------------------- This is from their website: One-on-One Spiritual Guidance http://www.jhanasadvice.com/id4.html """For more extended or ongoing inquiries, we offer individual spiritual guidance / coaching sessions to dharma practitioners by phone. The focus of these calls is your dharma practice and how it informs your worldly life. Because we are also both professional coaches, we can also offer you tools with which you can further understand your personality structure and how it both supports your practice, and also manifests as hindrances. . Spiritual guidance is offerred via phone calls of either 30 minutes or 1 hour, either as needed or on a regularly scheduled basis. Regularly scheduled calls can be every two weeks or monthly. One-on-one sessions are offered on a sliding scale of $75 to $150 per hour. For half an hour, the fee is $45 to $70. Payment is made in advance via PayPal, using the button below. Please enter the amount appropriate for your session""" ----------------------------------------------- The foregoing commercial solicitation would lead me to hilarious laughter were it not so sickening in its callow advertising for "cold cash"! It seems that there is a bit of confusion on their part. Obviously, everyone needs support to live, and receiving money in the form of donation or even set payment in return for books published or other teaching services is not improper, but what I view as a "huckster approach," especially with regard to the Dhamma, is sure ugly. (The absurdity of formulation: "spiritual guidance" at so much per hour!! If nothing else, this is so utterly crass!) ----------------------------------------------- Robert ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109085 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sound. was: Jhana moment is just mentallity upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/9/2010 5:56:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 8-aug-2010, om 14:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > P. S. Not that any of this has much to do with the goal of the > Dhamma, though! :-) ------- N: It has, it is very important. More important than it may seem at first. It all helps to have correct understanding of conditions, and to become detached from the idea that realities belong to a self. ------- > N: When we hear the sound of thunder, there is a mighty concussion, > and the element of heat operates here, it originates sound. > --------------------------------------------- > H:Yes, good. That is one example: The physics story is that the heat > causes rapid expansion of air > What is most key, even in the example of lightning and resultant > thunder, is motion. > ------------------------------------------ N: This was a very coarse example I gave and it is necessary to go into the details of paramattha dhammas. Just as the Vis. example of drum sound. The point is to show that there are different sounds and they have the characteristic of loudness, in a weaker or stronger degree. Sound is not what we always thought, neither are motion or wind. You use explanations of science but this is an approach different from the Abhidhamma. Motion or the element of wind is the tiniest ruupa that always arises together with the other inseparable ruupas in a group: with solidity, temperature (or heat), cohesion, colour, odour, flavour, nutritive essense. Sound is also accompanied by the se ruupas. I was 'hearing' the clattering of cups Lodewijk was taking out of the dishwasher. We may imagine: now these cups touch each other and here is the element of motion producing sound. This is not correct. There is the experience of sound, but on account of hearing this, there is immediately thinking of cups clattering. That is only a mental picture and so is the idea of the knocking of the cups together. It has nothing to do with the element of motion, the tiniest ruupa arising in a group. The teachings are very subtle and we should not believe that we can already clearly see what conditions sound in this case. It is first necessary to know very clearly what sound is, just sound, not mixed with any concept, not mixed with naama. -------------------------------------------------- Nina, Buddhaghosa discusses the bones of the ear, a matter of convention, surely. Of course the "cups business" is a matter of a story. There is no thinking or speaking that is not, including paramattha-dhamma talk. But it is crystal clear from an experiential perspective, that movement has more to do with sound than does temperature. It is also clear that movement (air) and resistance (earth), for example the rubbing together of ones hands, or of a stick and string, leads to warmth and even fire. Interrelationship is complex. Motion can lead to temperature, temperature can lead to motion (firestorms for example). Ultimately, there is nothing that is not directly or indirectly related to all else. But movement and sound are intimately related, and this is evident all the time. --------------------------------------------------- ------- > > H: > We read in the Atthasaalinii (Expositor, p. 441) : qualities of matter have how many origins?...Sound [object of > hearing] originating from the caloric [i.e. physical] order and > consciousness is the one which has two origins. Among sounds, > unintelligable sounds originate from the caloric order, intelligable > sounds originate from consciousness.> > -------------------------------------------- > That is rather vague as far as I can follow it. For one thing, I don't > understand the identification of "caloric" with "physical". All > rupa is > physical, not just heat. And the omission of motion here is odd. -------- N: As to the physical order, sound that is not originated by citta is meant here, I think. ------- > H: Also, what > is an "intelligible sound"? Speech? Yes, that consists of > consciousness-originated sound. Other categories of sound also > originate from consciousness, > though, like the sound of a glass breaking that was thrown in anger > against > a wall. ------ N: Here we have to differentiate. The second example of glass breaking is not sound originated by citta. Analysing the sound itself, apart from the story, this is sound originated by heat. --------------------------------------- Heat but not motion?? That seems plain wrong to me, Nina. Please explain how heat plays a role in this. (That movement does is quite clear.) ----------------------------------------- It does not matter that there was a whole story before of someone who was angry. We just investigate the sound itself. ---------------------------------------- And in this example, among the causes for the sound in this case are mentality and motion. --------------------------------------- ----------- > H: The matter is complex. > Overall, my main point in all this that to emphasize sound coming from > temperature is to emphasize something quite minor compared to sound > coming > from air, i.e., motion. > --------------------------------------------- > N: It is complex, since it is not quite obvious that heat > originates sound, not motion. --------------------------------------------- How does that work, Nina? Please explain the role of heat and not motion in the breaking-glass- sound scenario. I do not buy it, and I have no reason to accept it on the basis of blind faith. --------------------------------------------- But if we think of the groups of > ruupa and the ephemeral nature of ruupa it may become clearer. > Both ruupa and the conditioning factor of heat are present for an > infinitely short moment. Gone already before we realize it. Still, it is important to have the details correct. Otherwise we mix all the time realities and stories about realities. What I learnt: all ruupas not connected with the body originate from temperature. ----------------------------------- I have been given no reason to believe that. ---------------------------------- The ruupas connected with the body can originate from kamma, citta, nutirion or temperature, depending on the types of ruupa. ------ P.S. Lodewijk sends his greetings to you. ----------------------------------------- Thank you, Nina!! Please give Lodewijk my warm greetings in return!! :-) ----------------------------------------- Nina. =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109086 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 6:27 am Subject: dhammapada question gr8fuldawg2010 Hello Group, I just started reading the dhammapada, Haven't got real in depth or anything, but it seems to mention gods, and a tempter, and I think it even mentioned hell, maybe even heaven, though I am not sure about heaven? I am confused. I thought Buddha did not believe in this stuff? Am I missing something? Thanks, Peace, Love & Happiness Ryan #109087 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 6:23 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Tibetan Buddhism gr8fuldawg2010 Nina, Well, sounds good! :) Thanks N: You do not offend anyone by your questions. You did not get what I meant by my question. What I meant was: we can learn about our citta by discussing what it is, what kinds there are etc. We all can learn more about citta, that is why it is a good subject for discussion. Nina. Peace, Love & Happy Living Ryan #109088 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 6:39 am Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro chandrafabian Dear Ken, KEN H: Hi Fabian, <. . .> I don't want to sound argumentative, but isn't anatta always what we are talking about in Dhamma study? "Anatta is the central doctrine of Buddhism, without understanding of which, a real knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible." (Buddhist Dictionary) People of all different philosophies can talk about liberation, but the Buddhist understanding of liberation is profoundly different. Therefore, if we find ourselves talking about liberation, or anything else, in the same way as other people do, then alarm bells should ring, "we have lost the way!" FABIAN: Dear Ken, anatta is to be experienced in this life, and it can be experienced only by practicing Vipassana. Your understanding of anatta is only a belief/view(ditthi). ----------------------------------- <.....> KEN H: According to my understanding, all of those questions could be misleading. They will be good questions if both parties to the conversation are mindful of anatta, but if one or both of them has an idea of self, then they will be misleading. The fact is, there is no self that has no self. There are only dhammas that have no self. Only dhammas can practise or not practise. FABIAN: In my opinion, your understanding of no self is only a belief or a view(ditthi). ----------------------------------- <... . .> KEN H: I am not sure what you mean by that. It is not another person who is reading it. So I will agree with you to that extent. But apart from that, I can't see what are trying to say. I wonder if we can agree with the following way of saying it: Visible objects are appearing at the eye-door where they are experienced by eye-cittas and by mind-cittas. Sanna recognises (or remembers) the visible objects to some extent. And so there follow many mind-door cittas in which there are concepts of what has happened. The overall concept is of a DSG reply from Fabian that is being read by KenH. FABIAN: Yes you are exist, the reality of no-self is not realized by you yet, and probably never will be without practicing Samadhi. ---------------------------------- <. . .> KEN H: Ultimately, of course, there are no people, and so there are no people who are kalyana mitta. The only ultimately real kalyana mitta are conditioned namas. In particular, they are panna (right understanding), sati (mindfulness) and other kusala cetasikas. And ultimately there is no one who associates with the kalyana mitta. There is just the citta and the other cetasikas that arise with them. FABIAN: Dhamma is to be realized by practicing, not by thinking only. Thinking would not make you see the truth at is is, practicing Concentration (Vipassana) would. ----------------------------------- <....> KEN H: Without wanting to be pedantic, I should point out an inaccuracy in what you have just said. I think you are implying that a thought can be the object of satipatthana mindfulness. Actually, however, a thought is just a concept. It is not a dhamma. Thoughts don't arise, perform functions, and fall away. Only dhammas do that. And Satipatthana only knows dhammas. You should be careful when reading Buddhist books because many authors don't know this, and they list "thoughts" among the mental elements. They are actually mental concepts - very different! FABIAN: May I know who told you, thought don't arise and fall away? How can deep unshakeable understanding developed if you did not realized characteristics of your own mind and body? Your knowledge is a conceptual view (ditthi), as long you don't realize it ---------------------------- F: > Can you see the maturity of your thoughts by considering? Can you see the cessation of your thoughts by considering? Can you see the cause of the arising of your thoughts by considering? Can you see the process of your thoughts by considering? KEN H: If I take out the word "thoughts" and replace it with a word that designates one of the conditioned dhammas, I will be able to answer your question. Yes. If I consider "visible object" for example, there can be an understanding in theory of how visible object arises, persists, and passes away - all in less than one billionth of a second. FABIAN: I'm not asking theory Ken, I am asking you, can you see the arising and passing away of thoughts or conditioned dhammas? ------------------------------- KEN H: You are probably asking, however, if I can experience dhammas directly. In a way the answer is still yes; visible object (for example) is being experienced every time I have my eyes open. But does panna (satipatthana) arise at any of those moments? No, that is unlikely for a beginner. FABIAN: I'm not asking visible object, I am asking your thoughts, can you see it by considering Ken...? please answer yes or no. -------------------------------- <. . .> FABIAN: I've told you few times, how do you have understanding of the taste of apple or appricot without tasting it...? KEN H: If we are going to talk in those terms, I would describe right theoretical understanding as the "taste" of a conditioned dhamma. It is a faint taste that can gradually grow until it is unmistakeably the real thing (satipatthana). FABIAN: Suppose you see apricot continuously for hundreds of years, can you taste the apricot without actually eating it? Theoretical understanding is like seeing apricot, realizing is like eating it. ------------------------------------ <. . .> KEN H: The texts refer to learning Abhidhamma as "pariyatti." Pariyatti is the panna that understands conditioned dhammas in theory. It gradually grows into patipatti, which is satipatthana, the panna that understands conditioned dhammas directly. And then into pativeda, which is complete vipassana (full penetration of the teaching right up to nibbana). FABIAN: Please don't twist the text Ken, The text says a monk usually start with learning (pariyatti) and then practicing satipatthana (patipatti) and enjoy the fruit of practicing (pativeddha). --------------------------------- <.....> KEN : Right concentration is a conditioned dhamma that arises with every moment of right understanding. They arise together, but right understanding is the leader. (Concentration, effort and the other vipassana cetasikastake their lead from right understanding.) FABIAN: Bhikkhu Sunakkhata has eight Jhana and supernormal power deva vision (dibbacakkhu), but he is still believe a dog practitioner is better than The Buddha, do you think Sunnakhata who has Jhana, have right understanding? Is his concentration lead by understanding? (read: Pali proper names) ---------------------- KEN H: And so we read in the suttas about a woman who had vipassana insight when she noticed she had burnt the curry. Or the man who attained vipassana insight while falling off a cliff! They both had very weak ordinary concentration, but very strong right concentration. It regularly comes up in conversation at DSG, but I haven't kept a note of thereference. As I remember, the people in question had insight into one of the three characteristics, and then magga citta at the level of Stream-entry FABIAN: No references, I can not comment. -------------------------- KEN H: > > That is always the way it happens - naturally in the course of daily life. It doesn't happen when someone tries to make it happen. FABIAN: Without being disrespect Ken, sudden enlightenment is not Theravadin view. In Samudda Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya) The Buddha said The Dhamma (His Dhamma) is gradual, not sudden. ----------------------- KEN H: I have been taught that practising is 'understanding a dhammas that is arising now.' The idea of waiting for a special place or a special activity does not apply. FABIAN: The real deep unshakeable true understanding of Dhamma arises on seing and experiencing by ourselves, not simply by learning theory only. --------------------------------- KEN H: It can't apply! When you understand the whole world as "just the presently arisen conditioned dhammas," the idea of a special practice simply has no relevance. FABIAN: Have you ever see people have skill to shoot an arrow precisely and continuously without practicing Ken? It is like a person who is hoping to be a champion swimmer by learning, only from books without practicing. Meditation is also a skill Ken, any skill need practice. It is disillusioned if we assumed Enlightenment can arise without practicing Vipassana. The real penetrative Understanding of presently arisen Dhamma is obtained through practicing meditation, not by wise thinking. ----------------------------------- KEN H: That sort of idea would apply only in a completely different reality. It would apply in a reality that contained something *more* than the presently arisen dhammas (some sort of permanent entity that continued on from one moment to the next). FABIAN: Dhamma understanding without seeing and experiencing is not deep and not penetrative. We should practicing Vipassana meditation, to see everything as it is without conceptualizing, speculating or assuming. I must ask you an apology to say this: In my opinion what you do is conceptualizing, assuming and speculating. It is conceptual knowledge, not direct knowledge, and it is still a view. --------------------------- <. . .> KEN H: Let's hope not. But, in a way, I don't really think about it happening to me. I am content to know - right now - there are only dhammas, there is no me that satipatthana can happen to. Ken H FABIAN: What is dhamma Ken? What is Satipatthana Ken...? Mettacittena, fabian #109089 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 7:02 am Subject: q. szmicio Dear friends Is it good to investigate present realities? Is thinking sufficient? Best wishes Lukas #109090 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 6:51 am Subject: Re: DSG photo album chandrafabian Dear Sarah, I think it's not nice if I am waiting for you to ask three times :) The problem is... I don't know how to upload my picture from facebook Please tell me how to take my picture from facebook my name : fabian chandra. Mettacittena, fabian #109091 From: Kevin F Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 10:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: DSG photo album farrellkevin80 Dear Fabian, Fabian wrote: The problem is... I don't know how to upload my picture from facebook Please tell me how to take my picture from facebook my name : fabian chandra. Kevin: Open the Facebook page and right click on the picture, choose 'save as' and save it to a file on your computer, perhaps the 'my pictures' or 'my documents' section. Then open the dsg page, click 'add photo', choose 'browse' when it prompts you for the photo, from there you will be able to go into 'my pictures' where the photo is saved and pick it, then just upload it to the page. All the best, Kevin ___________ #109092 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhammapada question nilovg Dear Ryan, Op 9-aug-2010, om 15:27 heeft Ryan Brawn het volgende geschreven: > I just started reading the dhammapada, Haven't got real in depth or > anything, but it seems to mention gods, and a tempter, and I think > it even mentioned hell, maybe even heaven, though I am not sure > about heaven? I am confused. I thought Buddha did not believe in > this stuff? Am I missing something? ------ N: Also in other religions you have heard about hell and heaven, but in Buddhism there is a difference. The Buddha taught cause and effect very precisely. He taught about different degrees of evil deeds and different degrees of good deeds and these bring their results accordingly. The Buddha taught kamma and result, vipaaka. For example, a deed with a high degree of evil can bring result in the form of rebirth in a hell plane, and there are different hell planes in proprtion to the strength of evil that was committed. If the evil deed was of a lesser degree this may result in rebirth as an animal. The animal world is an unhappy plane of existence, but also this, as you can notice, has many degrees. As to heavenly planes, there are many of them with different degrees of excellence. Life in any plane of existence does not last forever. Other kamma can cause rebirth in another plane of existence after one's life span in a particular plane is ended. You will read about the cycle of birth and death and unless all defilements have been eradicated by wisdom we continue in this cycle on and on. We cannot be sure about our next rebirth. We are fortunate that the Buddha taught the Path leading to the end of the cycle. **** Nina. #109093 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 11:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lukas' questions. nilovg Dear Lukas, I hope you were not troubled by floods in Poland. Op 9-aug-2010, om 16:02 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Is it good to investigate present realities? > Is thinking sufficient? ------- N: It all depends on conditions whether one is able to investigate present realities, or whether one can only think about realities. Thinking is not forbidden, it is a conditioned dhamma, not you. Thinking can be done with right understanding when one has listened to the teachings. This can condition awareness of present realities, but it is not known when that can happen. Better not wish for it. Let it all come by conditions. Sarah is going to Bgk soon, and you may collect some questions if you like. You can send these to dsg so that we all can have a try. ------ Nina. #109094 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 11:45 am Subject: What I heard. from audio, 2007-07-03, a. part 3. nilovg Dear friends, Jon: could you relate this to Venerable Bhikkhu Pannabahulo?s question about naama and ruupa now? You spoke about knowing visible object as visible object, sound as sound. hardness as hardness. Sujin: If we read or hear that sound is ruupa and hearing is naama is that the understanding of sound and hearing? Not at all. It is just sa~n~naa which begins to remember the two different words ?naama? and ?ruupa?. But whenever there is awareness, there is the development of understanding of the difference between them. There can be more understanding of hardness: it is hard. We do not have to think that hardness is ruupa, because hardness is appearing to pa~n~naa that can develop. There can be the understanding that hardness is not a cup, that it is not anything at all. Just now hardness is appearing. It depends on the extent of pa~n~naa to understand it as just a reality. That which experiences hardness is real and it is not self, nobody at all. It is just the moment of the experience of hardness. This is different from the moment of experiencing sound or visible object. This is not merely the application of a term but it is the moment of developing understanding when there are conditions for awareness to arise and to be aware. There is no one there. This is like a very hard task that takes a long time, but it is the way to understand reality with non-attachment. ****** Nina. #109095 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 2:03 pm Subject: message from David on elements sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Howard & all, A friend in Bangkok, David, sent me the following note as a contribution to your discussion. (Nina, you'll remember David joined us last time in KK. He says he didn't join us here because he didn't think he had anything to contribute!)S. =========== D: >....reading the discussion Nina is having about sound and where they are stuck, brought about a deeper understanding of The Four Great Elements and how they interact. If you feel it is appropriate to contribute this in order to clarify the issue please do. Nina is discussing sound and its proximate cause, Heat. The person she's discussing with believes that motion is the proximate cause and doesn't except that its Heat. Heat IS the proximate cause. Why? In a thermodynamic system, molecules cannot move at K. K is absolute zero which is -459.67 degrees F or -273 degrees C. No heat = No motion = No sound How did the Buddha know this? Wonderful........... Looking forward to seeing you soon. Metta David < ***** #109096 From: Ryan Brawn Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 4:48 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] dhammapada question gr8fuldawg2010 Nina & Group, what about were he mentions gods? Peace, Love & happiness RYan #109097 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 5:39 pm Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro kenhowardau Hi Fabian, --------- F: > anatta is to be experienced in this life, and it can be experienced only by practicing Vipassana. Your understanding of anatta is only a belief/view(ditthi). ---------- You and I comprehend the term "practicing Vipassana" in very different ways. We both agree there needs to be Vipassana practice, but we can't agree on what that practice is. ----------------------------------- <.....> FABIAN: In my opinion, your understanding of no self is only a belief or a view(ditthi). ----------------------------------- In your opinion, is my understanding a right view (samma-ditthi) or a wrong view (miccha-ditthi)? ------------------------------------------- FABIAN: Yes you are exist, the reality of no-self is not realized by you yet, ------------------------------------------- I agree I have not directly known the anatta characteristic. That is something that happens only to the very wise - shortly before Stream-entry. --------------------------------------- F: > and probably never will be without practicing Samadhi. --------------------------------------- According to the Pali Tipitaka the practice of samadhi is a separate matter, very different from vipassana. ---------------------------------- FABIAN: > Dhamma is to be realized by practicing, not by thinking only. Thinking would not make you see the truth at is is, practicing Concentration (Vipassana) would. ----------------------------------- There is no such thing in the Tipitaka as 'practising concentration.' Concentration arises in every moment of consciousness, and it takes its nature from the citta. If the citta is wholesome, the concentration is wholesome. It the citta is strong, the concentration is strong . . . and so on. -------------------------------- <. . .> FABIAN: May I know who told you, thought don't arise and fall away? --------------------------------- That is the way it is taught in the Tipitaka. Thoughts are clearly excluded from the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. Most meditation teachers don't know that, and so they teach the opposite. --------------------------- F: > How can deep unshakeable understanding developed if you did not realized characteristics of your own mind and body? Your knowledge is a conceptual view (ditthi), as long you don't realize it --------------------------- I would ask, how can deep unshakeable understanding be developed if you haven't even heard the teaching? ------------------------- <. . .> FABIAN: > I'm not asking theory Ken, I am asking you, can you see the arising and passing away of thoughts or conditioned dhammas? ------------------------- Aside from the issue of thoughts (which are mere illusions and therefore don't really do anything) it is possible to see dhammas arising and passing away. But that is an advanced stage of vipassana. A beginner has a long way to go before he can do that. -------------------- <. . .> FABIAN: Suppose you see apricot continuously for hundreds of years, can you taste the apricot without actually eating it? Theoretical understanding is like seeing apricot, realizing is like eating it. --------------------- We disagree on this simile. The way I see it, right theoretical understanding is the taste of the apricot. Right direct understanding is also the taste of apricot, but clearer and unmistakeable. Mere recitation of words (without understanding them) could be likened to seeing an apricot without tasting it. But no one is recommending that. -------------- <. . .> KEN H: The texts refer to learning Abhidhamma as "pariyatti." Pariyatti is the panna that understands conditioned dhammas in theory. It gradually grows into patipatti, which is satipatthana, the panna that understands conditioned dhammas directly. And then into pativeda, which is complete vipassana (full penetration of the teaching right up to nibbana). FABIAN: > Please don't twist the text Ken, The text says a monk usually start with learning (pariyatti) and then practicing satipatthana (patipatti) and enjoy the fruit of practicing (pativeddha). ------------- I can see your difficulty, and I sympathise with you. Your meditation teachers have told you that some sort of formal practice must be undertaken in order to bridge the gap between pariyatti and patipatti. The Tipitaka, however, says the opposite. ------------------------------------------- <.....> KH: > > Right concentration is a conditioned dhamma that arises with every moment of right understanding. They arise together, but right understanding is the leader. (Concentration, effort and the other vipassana cetasikastake their lead from right understanding.) FABIAN: > Bhikkhu Sunakkhata has eight Jhana and supernormal power deva vision (dibbacakkhu), but he is still believe a dog practitioner is better than The Buddha, do you think Sunnakhata who has Jhana, have right understanding? Is his concentration lead by understanding? (read: Pali proper names) ------------------------------------------- Before we change the subject I would like to remind you that I was answering your question, "What is right concentration?" But now that you have asked this other question, I can tell you that cetasikas usually take their lead from citta. As I was saying before, when the citta is kusala the accompanying concentration, effort and feeling (etc) are also kusala. The only exception is when there is panna. In that case citta and the other cetasikas take their lead from it. When there is supramundane panna (of the Ariyan Eightfold Path) there will be supramundane magga-citta and the eight supramundane path factors. This is explained in (for example) the Mahacattarika Sutta: "As to this, right understanding comes first. And how does right understanding come first? . . ." As I understand it, this applies not only to vipassana but also to the lesser practice of samatha. (Samatha-panna knows kusala from akusala, but it does not know the ti-lakkhana.) When there is samatha panna at the level of jhana, the citta will be jhana citta, and the relevant cetasikas will be jhana factors. -------------------------------- KEN H: And so we read in the suttas about a woman who had vipassana insight when she noticed she had burnt the curry. Or the man who attained vipassana insight while falling off a cliff! They both had very weak ordinary concentration, but very strong right concentration. <. . .> FABIAN: > No references, I can not comment. -------------------------------- With respect, Fabian, I could point out that none of your teachers' meditation practices are referenced in the Tipitaka. The idea of sitting quietly in order to prepare the mind for seeing dhammas simply is not found in the original texts. ------------------------------ <. . .> KEN H: > > I have been taught that practising is 'understanding a dhamma that is arising now.' The idea of waiting for a special place or a special activity does not apply. FABIAN: > The real deep unshakeable true understanding of Dhamma arises on seeing and experiencing by ourselves, not simply by learning theory only. ------------------------------- If by "learning" you mean "developing understanding of" then I would have to disagree. --------------------------------------------- <. . .> KEN H: > > When you understand the whole world as "just the presently arisen conditioned dhammas," the idea of a special practice simply has no relevance. FABIAN: > Have you ever see people have skill to shoot an arrow precisely and continuously without practicing Ken? It is like a person who is hoping to be a champion swimmer by learning, only from books without practicing. ---------------------------------------------- Right theoretical understanding can arise by conditions many, many times - over the course of many lifetimes. As it does so, it gradually increases until there is direct right understanding. That's the way it happens. There is no other way. ----------------- <. . .> F: > Meditation is also a skill Ken, any skill need practice. ----------------- I don't want to argue, I just want to show you there is a different teaching in the original Pali texts. ------------------------- <. . .> FABIAN: > Dhamma understanding without seeing and experiencing is not deep and not penetrative. We should practicing Vipassana meditation, to see everything as it is without conceptualizing, speculating or assuming. I must ask you an apology to say this: In my opinion what you do is conceptualizing, assuming and speculating. It is conceptual knowledge, not direct knowledge, and it is still a view. -------------------------- As I asked at the beginning: is it right view or is it wrong view? --------- <. . .> KEN H: > > I don't really think about it happening to me. I am content to know - right now - there are only dhammas, there is no me that satipatthana can happen to. FABIAN: > What is dhamma Ken? What is Satipatthana Ken...? --------- I assume those are rhetorical question, but I don't know what you mean by them. Perhaps you would care to explain. Ken H #109098 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 4:45 pm Subject: Intention is the Kamma! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Kamma is Intention behind a mental, verbal or bodily action: Kamma is intention to push and act and not the later resulting effects! Buddha emphasized the core Law of Kamma: Moral Efficacy of any Action! He said: Kamma should be known and understood: The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The ending of kamma should be known. The way of practice for the ending of kamma should be known. Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one makes kamma by way of body, speech, and mind. And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play. And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the various animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry ghosts, kamma to be experienced in this human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the divine devas. This is called the diversity in kamma. By intending something one plants an egg of future hatching resultants! And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here and now, or later in this very lifetime, and that which arises in later lives. This is called the result of kamma. And what is the ending of kamma? The ending of contact thereby also ends kamma. And what is the way of practice for the ending of kamma? Just this Noble eightfold path: right view, right motivation, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration This is the way of praxis leading to the end of kamma. Now when a disciple of the Noble Ones comprehends kamma in this way, the cause, the diversity, the result, the end, and the way of practice leading to the ending of kamma in this way, then he sees the fulfilment of the Noble life as the end of kamma. Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The ending of kamma... The way of practice for the ending of kamma should be known. Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said. Reference: AN VI.63 _________________________________________________________________ Reflecting on all one's actions: Intention has in future entangled physical effects outside the individual! The Buddha to his son: How do you consider this, Rahula: What is a mirror for? Rahula: For reflection, Sir. The Buddha: In the same way, Rahula, bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts are to be done with constant reflection. Whenever you want to do a bodily act, then you should reflect: This bodily act I want to do, would it lead to misery to myself, to the misery of others, or to both? Is it a detrimental bodily act, with painful consequences, painful results? If, on reflection, you come to know that it would lead to your own misery, to the misery of others, or to both, and it would be an harming bodily act with painful consequences, painful results, then any bodily act whatsoever of that sort is absolutely unacceptable for you to do! But if on reflection you know that it would not cause misery. That it would be an advantageous bodily action with happy consequences, & pleasant results, then any bodily act of that sort is proper for you to do. Any intention produces a ladder into the future upon which one climbs! While you are doing a bodily act, you should reflect: This bodily act I am doing now does it lead to self-misery, to the misery of others, or to both? Is it an detrimental bodily act, with painful consequences, painful results? If, on reflection, you come to know that it is leading to self-misery, or to the misery of others, or to both, then you should instantly stop doing it! But if on reflection you know that it is not disadvantageous to anybody, then you may continue with it. Having done a bodily act, you should again reflect .... If, on reflection, you come to know that it led to self-misery, to the misery of others, or to both; that it was an detrimental bodily act with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, and lay it open to the teacher or to a knowledgeable friend in the holy life. Having confessed it, you should exercise restraint and self-control in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to misery, that it was a advantageous bodily action with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay mentally elated and joyful, training day & night in all the advantageous mental qualities. ...[similarly for verbal and mental acts]... Intention is a choice, which reduces entropy, thus rolling out the future! Rahula, all past bhikkhus and recluses who purified their bodily, verbal, & mental acts, did it through repeated reflection on their bodily, verbal, and mental acts in exactly this way. All the future bhikkhus and recluses & all the bhikkhus and recluses who at present purify their bodily, verbal, and mental acts, do it by repeated reflection on their bodily, verbal, & mental acts in exactly this way. Therefore, Rahula, you should train yourself: I will purify my bodily acts by repeated reflection. I will purify my verbal acts by repeated reflection. I will purify my mental acts by repeated reflection. Thus should you train yourself! reference MN 61 <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * .... #109099 From: Sukinderpal Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 7:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? sukinderpal Hi Alex, > > >SU: We'll go on to what constitutes rites and rituals. But for >now, > > > >what I consider 'formal meditation' is any activity such as >sitting > > > >down in a particular way, > > > > > > Try to be in a posture other than 4 main ones for long. > > > > > > Try not to engage in *any* activity... One will simply starve > >lying on > > > the bed, but even this lying on the bed is an activity in one of > >the postures. Without intention one will not even move a finger, > >much less develop understanding. > > > > > > >SU: Perhaps if you didn't break up the sentence such unnecessary > >argument wouldn't come up which only acts as a distraction. > > Please explain what you've meant. I've asked a reasonable question, > can one develop understanding without being in any major/minor posture? > Suk: I had said: "But for now, what I consider 'formal meditation' is any activity such as sitting down in a particular way, with intention to observe / note / concentrate on one or more objects aimed at particular results". The last part namely "with intention......" was left out, which is where the wrong view was being highlighted. Sure how the body is disposed at the time, this can be said to be in one posture or the other and mostly there is no thought associated with any of this such as, "I am sitting" or "I am lying down". All the more reason to question the apparent self-suggestion in the case of someone who decides to 'meditate'. But I may be missing your point, so I will go along with you to to see where this is leading. The answer to your last question is, no. ========== > > Why did Satipatthana even talk about Postures? Why did VsM did talk > about posture such as "sitting crosslegged" ? > > You are throwing lots of distractions, please answer the questions. > Suk: I did respond to that didn't I? I had suggested that the mention of posture was for the same reason that eating, dressing up and such activities as cemetery meditation and anapanasati were also mentioned, that these are incidental to the fact of need to understand nama and rupa at any moment regardless. ========== > > Same with VsM. It does say things to be done and things to be avoided. > Rather than assert your statement which flies in the face of VsM, > please explain your position. > Suk: Any and every activity is ultimately about conditioned and conditioning paramattha dhammas arising and falling away beyond control. Understanding this beginning with pariyatti level, is turning away from the uninstructed's view of a 'self' who does and needs to do this or that in order to develop understanding. If we continue reading the VsM. or any of the other texts in this same way, we won't get any closer to the kind of understanding intended by those teachings such as the one below from the same text: Mere suffering exists, but no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer is found ============= > > In #109063 You say that > "were Ven. Buddhaghosa here today, he'd at least set the record > straight and we wouldn't need to be involved in such kind of arguments." > > WHy didn't he just write the above in VsM that one "should not adopt > this and that posture. That one should not intentionally do X,Y,Z for > understanding to arise". > Suk: Although he'd anticipated the misunderstanding by later generations and in fact there were many who would have done the same during his time, why would he need to address those people in his writings? Doesn't it makes sense that he'd write for those who'd have the level of understanding? I'm sure there are people whose understanding is so way off that even you would agree with me about it. And were these same people to express concerns that insisted on Buddhaghosa addressing them, would you not think that it was unnecessary? ============= > > I understand and fully agree that one should do things WITH > understanding and that Understanding is of crucial importance. > Suk: Who are you agreeing with here? There is understanding in the present moment and the object is nama or rupa. With this comes the understanding of the 'unreality' of a 'doer who does this or that'. No one has suggested "do things WITH understanding" because this would be starting out in fact with wrong understanding. ============ > Actions don't have to be done under delusion and even the Buddha > adopted this and that postures. Even Arahants did this and that. > Suk: Obviously they would sit or stand without such thoughts as, "I'll now sit and try to understand" or even, "I'll understand while I'm standing up". ;-) ========== > > "A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among these, > if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments* and learn the > meditation subject. Then, when he has done the work connected with the > meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself > comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place." > VsM IX,1 > > Ten Impediments: > A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, > And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." > -VsM III, 29 > > ====== > VIII,145. "'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the > root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs > crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, > VIII,153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies > that he has found an abode favourable to the development of > concentration through mindfulness of breathing. > VIII,158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest > possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests > characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all > that is forest' (Ps.i,176; Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five > hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone > to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, > secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty > place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode > (resting place).42 [271] > > VIII,159. Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three > seasons, suitable to humour and temperament,43 and favourable to the > development of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., > indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness > nor to agitation. Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., > to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the > in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. > > VIII,160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs > fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed > the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting > end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and > sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by > moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind > becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, > attains to growth and increase. > =========================================== > Suk: If you'd read the above as description of 'conditions', most particular that of panna of required levels, you'd not be arguing with me about any of this. ;-) Metta, Sukinder #109100 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 7:23 pm Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro truth_aerator Hello KenH, all, > --------- > F: > anatta is to be experienced in this life, and > it can be experienced only by practicing Vipassana. Your > understanding of anatta is only a belief/view(ditthi). > ---------- > >KH You and I comprehend the term "practicing Vipassana" in very >different ways. We both agree there needs to be Vipassana practice, >but we can't agree on what that practice is. About practice. Of course a person can be analyzed in cittas, cetasikas, rupas, namarupa, khandha ayatana, dhatu and so on that are conditioned and dependently arisen. Sure. A car can also be theoretically disassembled into millions of component parts. This doesn't mean that car doesn't function. This doesn't mean that one doesn't need to avoid pedestrians and traffic lights. None of the "ultimate language" change the fact of conventional behavior (ex: don't drive into pedestrians or through a busy intersection on red light). Practice, just like driving, does occur. Of course it is conditioned, so is swimming. But none of this changes the fact that when you are in the "ocean of samsara" you make an active effort to swim to the nearest safety. Otherwise you simply drown. Studying how to swim is good. But one needs to act on that study. Study (which is good, btw) alone will not make you swim. Only effort at swimming will help. Kusala and akusala actions do occur. Even though they are fully conditioned it doesn't change the fact that they do occur. One of the conditions is to actually do it. A systematic development for one with enough accumulations does occur. VsM does often talk about intentional effort: "he should not give up but should again and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality only." VsM XVIII,15 > > [IF THE IMMATERIAL FAILS TO BECOME EVIDENT] > > XVIII, 15. [591] But if he has discerned materiality in one of >these ways, and while he is trying to discern the immaterial it does >not become evident to him owing to its subtlety, then he should not >give up but should again and again comprehend, give attention to, >discern, and define materiality only. One can't move a finger without INTENTION, so nothing to say about development of wisdom. It would be strange if wisdom could magically fall on one's lap. Active measures are required, even if they are simply to read, read and read. With metta, Alex #109102 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Aug 9, 2010 9:15 pm Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro kenhowardau Hi Alex, ------------ <. . .> A: > About practice. Of course a person can be analyzed in cittas, cetasikas, rupas, namarupa, khandha ayatana, dhatu and so on that are conditioned and dependently arisen. Sure. ------------ No, a person can't be analysed that way at all. According to the Abhidhamma, a person is ultimately just one citta (and its accompanying cetasikas and rupas), not a (plural) number of cittas. ----------------------------- A: > A car can also be theoretically disassembled into millions of component parts. This doesn't mean that car doesn't function. ---------------------------- Similarly, a person that is just one citta is able to function. It functions by experiencing an object for one brief moment. Then it falls away - dead (no more person). Immediately it has fallen away another person (citta) is born to take its place. ---------------------------------------- A: > This doesn't mean that one doesn't need to avoid pedestrians and traffic lights. ---------------------------------------- That's right, Alex, at moments when there is the concept of a moving car, we think in terms of safe driving. In between those moments, however, there can be satipatthana, when a conditioned dhamma is known with right understanding (no self, no cars, no pedestrians, just a fleeting mental or physical phenomenon). The two practices are can exist together. -------------------------------------------------------- A: > None of the "ultimate language" change the fact of conventional behavior (ex: don't drive into pedestrians or through a busy intersection on red light). Practice, just like driving, does occur. --------------------------------------------------------- In what way does satipatthana resemble driving? --------------------- A: > Of course it is conditioned, so is swimming. --------------------- No, swimming is a concept, and concepts aren't conditioned. Swimming happens when someone dives into water, not when a conditioning dhamma performs its trillionth-of-a-second function. -------------------------------------- A: > But none of this changes the fact that when you are in the "ocean of samsara" you make an active effort to swim to the nearest safety. -------------------------------------- You make that sort of active effort only when you have wrong understanding of samsara. ------------------------------------------------- A: > Otherwise you simply drown. ------------------------------------------------- How does drowning fit into the analogy? --------------------------------------------------------- A: > Studying how to swim is good. But one needs to act on that study. Study (which is good, btw) alone will not make you swim. Only effort at swimming will help. ---------------------------------------------------------- Study is neither good nor bad. It always depends on the citta at any given time. ---------------------------------------------- A: > Kusala and akusala actions do occur. Even though they are fully conditioned it doesn't change the fact that they do occur. One of the conditions is to actually do it. A systematic development for one with enough accumulations does occur. ---------------------------------------------- Your metaphors have lost all meaning. ------------------------------------ A: > VsM does often talk about intentional effort: "he should not give up but should again and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality only." VsM XVIII,15 ------------------------------------ If you understand that as a person in the conventional sense you are doing the Vsm. A grave disservice. ---------------------- <. . .> A: > One can't move a finger without INTENTION, so nothing to say about development of wisdom. It would be strange if wisdom could magically fall on one's lap. Active measures are required, even if they are simply to read, read and read. ---------------------- Reading with wrong understanding will take you further away from nibbana, not closer. Ken H #109103 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:38 am Subject: Re: Lukas' questions. szmicio dear Nina, > I hope you were not troubled by floods in Poland. Everything's fine. > Op 9-aug-2010, om 16:02 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > > Is it good to investigate present realities? > > Is thinking sufficient? > ------- > N: It all depends on conditions whether one is able to investigate > present realities, or whether one can only think about realities. > Thinking is not forbidden, it is a conditioned dhamma, not you. > Thinking can be done with right understanding when one has listened > to the teachings. This can condition awareness of present realities, > but it is not known when that can happen. Better not wish for it. Let > it all come by conditions. > Sarah is going to Bgk soon, and you may collect some questions if you > like. You can send these to dsg so that we all can have a try. > ------ L: When Sarah sets off? What do u mean by investigate? Best wishes Lukas #109104 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhammapada question nilovg Dear Ryan, Op 10-aug-2010, om 1:48 heeft Ryan Brawn het volgende geschreven: > what about were he mentions gods? ------ N: The term devas is used and this is translated as divine beings of gods. Gods is not such a good translation, I prefer to keep the term devas. Deva is a name for a being born in one of the heavenly planes, the deva planes. Also a king is addressed by the term deva. It has no connection with the idea of a god creator as we find in other religions. The different deva planes have each their specific name, and this is again denotiong the degree of favorable rebirth in those planes as a result of the degrees of wholesome deeds done in the past. You will meet many terms and names, but they all represent what is real and have nothing to do with mythology. Nina. #109105 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sound. was: Jhana moment is just mentallity nilovg Dear David and Howard, thank you for your contributions. David, I am delighted to hear from you again, we do remember you. Do become an active member, so nice to have a chat with you now and then. I would not call heat a proximate cause of sound, it originates sound. The proximate cause of sound is the four great Elements, just as in the case of visible object, the Atthasaalinii (Expositor, p. 416, 417) mentions. Sound arises together with the four Great Elements in one group. I continue now with Howard. Temperature or the element of heat originates sound and it does so not at its arising moment but at the moment of its presence. Ruupa is at its arising moment too weak to produce another ruupa. We have different approaches, because you may think of motion as a story, whilst I take it as a momentary ruupa. Op 9-aug-2010, om 14:14 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Other categories of sound also > > originate from consciousness, > > though, like the sound of a glass breaking that was thrown in anger > > against > > a wall. > ------ > N: I think I can add something here. You think of a cause that > brings an effect over time, even a short time. I pay attention to > the moment, see everything as momentary. Citta can produce certain > ruupas, but it does so at its arising moment, because then citta > is strong, not at the moment of presence. In your example there are > trillions of moments passing in between the angry citta and the > sound of breaking glass. Citta with anger has fallen away > immediately, how could it produce anything? Besides, citta does not > produce sound that is outside, such as in your example of breaking > glass. Moreover, throwing is here a story, something that takes > time, not a momentary reality. Again you take motion differently, > not as just a ruupa that arises in a group with the other great > Elements, just for a moment. It is not a long action. We can call > it motion or oscillation, or pressure. > --------------------------------------------- > H: How does that work, Nina? Please explain the role of heat and not > motion in the breaking-glass- sound scenario. I do not buy it, and > I have no > reason to accept it on the basis of blind faith. > --------------------------------------------- > N: You do not have to buy it :-)) I do not wish to convince you. It makes sense to me that ruupas outside are produced by the element of heat. ------ Nina. #109106 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhammapada question upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Ryan) - In a message dated 8/10/2010 8:29:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Ryan, Op 10-aug-2010, om 1:48 heeft Ryan Brawn het volgende geschreven: > what about were he mentions gods? ------ N: The term devas is used and this is translated as divine beings of gods. Gods is not such a good translation, I prefer to keep the term devas. Deva is a name for a being born in one of the heavenly planes, the deva planes. Also a king is addressed by the term deva. It has no connection with the idea of a god creator as we find in other religions. The different deva planes have each their specific name, and this is again denotiong the degree of favorable rebirth in those planes as a result of the degrees of wholesome deeds done in the past. You will meet many terms and names, but they all represent what is real and have nothing to do with mythology. Nina. ================================== Although the terminology also fails, because there is no sense of "messenger" in 'deva', I think that a usage of "angel" is closer to being on the mark than is "god". As I understand it, the literal meaning of 'deva' is "radiant one." The sutta stories emphasize their radiance, and that matches the description of angels in other traditions. I suspect that devas are a reality and that there is awareness of them in all, or almost all, cultures and religions. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109107 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lukas' questions. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 10-aug-2010, om 13:38 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > When Sarah sets off? ------ N: I do not know exactly, it is best to ask her. ------- > > What do u mean by investigate? ------- N: We can also say: study with awareness. Yesterday I posted from the audio: < Just now hardness is appearing. It depends on the extent of pa~n~naa to understand it as just a reality. That which experiences hardness is real and it is not self, nobody at all. It is just the moment of the experience of hardness. This is different from the moment of experiencing sound or visible object. This is not merely the application of a term but it is the moment of developing understanding when there are conditions for awareness to arise and to be aware. There is no one there. This is like a very hard task that takes a long time, but it is the way to understand reality with non- attachment. > The non-attachment is very important. No idea of: I have to investigate or be aware now. No need to name realities. Nina. #109108 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:31 am Subject: Fallacy of Mahayana Texts farrellkevin80 Dear All, This is a peek into the fallacy of mahayana texts. I know a doctor of Tibetan Buddhism, named Namdrol, who completed his four years of medical training under a renowned Tibetan doctor. Namdrol is also a long-term pracitioner of Tibetan Buddhism and a Buddhist scholar. He even admits that the "Four Medical Tantras" in Tibetan Buddhism which were said to have been preached by the "Medicine Buddha" are counterfits-- that they are direct copies of older Indian Ayurvedic medical texts. The tantras themselves state that they were preached by the Medicine Buddha in Tibet but that the Buddhas had appeared to Vedic Indians as the "gods of their people" in order to preach the texts to them and help them in India. The copies are nearly line for line. This is a an example of how Tibetans lied about the source of their texts simply because they did not want to admit that the system of medicine they practiced was non-Buddhist (that would be a big blow to Tibetans). So if this is the case with these texts, then what of the status of the other texts? Namdrol also admits that many of the Tibetan Dzogchen Tantras which were said to come directly from their Indian Vajrayana sources were actually composed by Tibetans in Tibet. He knows this because many of the terms used in the texts only originated in Tibet. These were terms that came into being in Tibet to explain subtle points about Madhyamaka when the Madhyamaka debates reached their heights in Tibet. Madhyamaka debates in India were not nearly as in depth as later Tibetan ones and in fact these debates became a mainstay in Tibetan Buddhism and are a big part of Tibetan Buddhist History; whole sects rose up based on them. So these Tibetan terms invented to explain subtle points in debate about Madhyamaka, terms which never appeared in any Indian texts, are part of Tibetan Dzogchen texts that were said to be brought from India by the Indian tantric masters such as Atisha, or retrieved in later trips to India to get tantras by Tibetans. This shows how corrupt the Mahayana system of texts is. This is just a couple of examples that can give one a peek into the utter fallacy of Mahayana and Vajrayana scriptures. They are non-Buddhist texts, written by later people, with many ideas contrary to the Buddha's teachings. They should not be trusted. Kevin F. ___________ #109109 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:45 am Subject: [dsg] What I heard. from audio, 2007-07-03, a. part 4 nilovg Dear friends, ------- footnote 1: Dhammapada, 153, 154. The architect is craving. The house is the body. So long as craving has not been eradicated the house will be rebuild; one has to wander on in the cycle of birth and death. ****** Nina. #109110 From: Vince Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sound. was: Jhana moment is just mentallity cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > Temperature or the element of heat originates sound and it does so > not at its arising moment but at the moment of its presence. Ruupa is > at its arising moment too weak to produce another ruupa. We have > different approaches, because you may think of motion as a story, > whilst I take it as a momentary ruupa. I wonder if you and Howard both are right in different levels. Motion is nothing by itself because it arises in dependence of other objects. If there are no objects we cannot conceive any motion. Therefore, it seems obvious citta is causing the delusion of time (and therefore motion) when she is knowing successive objects. Then you says that's not citta but the element of heat which originates sound at the moment of its presence. However, when you says "the moment of its presence" it would mean there is an object which has been grasped, because a presence needs a knower. Therefore, Is not citta the spectator? In the Suttas one can read about this: "And what is the fire property? The fire property may be either internal or external. What is the internal fire property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's fire, fiery, & sustained: that by which [the body] is warmed, aged, & consumed with fever; and that by which what is eaten, drunk, chewed, & savored gets properly digested; or anything else internal, within oneself, that's fire, fiery, & sustained: This is called the internal fire property. Now both the internal fire property & the external fire property are simply fire property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the fire property and makes the fire property fade from the mind. * MN.62 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.062.than.html says: "one becomes disenchanted with the fire property and makes the fire property fade from the mind." How do you understand that "fade from the mind"? best wishes, #109111 From: "lawstu_uk" Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question - The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena lawstu_uk Dear Nina, I am very grateful for your clear and detailed reply. Again and again, you tirelessly respond to our questions with great explanations, patience and wisdom. I have more questions because I have been reading the first few chapters of Survey. But because I cannot sit long, I will post my questions whenever I can. Much appreciated and much metta, Andrew #109112 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What I heard. from audio, 2007-07-03, a. part 4 truth_aerator Dear Nina, KenH, Sukin, all, >N: We like to experience reality, we try so hard to experience it. >We would like to see its arising and falling away. That is all done >by attachment. Not all desire is unwholesome. At least not always. There is possibility of skillful cetana, chanda, adhimokkha, adhitthana and viriya. Without desire for kusala and desire to get rid of akusala, the mind would not become more skilful. To get to a park you need desire to get there. Without desire you won't go. Same thing is with study. There MUST be desire to get out of bed, grab a book (such as ADL, Survey, etc), desire to read it and then reading it. Once one has learned, there is no more necessity for desire to study. Then one can drop desire. Same thing is with other aspects of the path. Skillful use of desire is required. Even the Buddha had skillful decision to do this or that. Without "intention to act" one (The Buddha included) wouldn't move a finger, much less walk for alms, teach this and that person, go to this or that town, etc. Self view is NOT required for "decision-to-do" as we can see with the case of Aryans and Arhats. Even Arhats make decision all the time. Every citta is accompanied by cetana and other required factors. Only rocks and insentient "beings" don't have decisions and intentions. With metta, Alex #109113 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:38 pm Subject: Divine Guiding! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: 10 Contemplations is Daily Buddhist Routine! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus & friends: There is one contemplation, which when often practised and developed leads to a complete turning away from this captivating world, to detachment, to silencing, to ceasing, to Peace , to penetrating knowledge, to Enlightenment , and thus to Nibb ana... Any Noble Disciple, who by progress have understood this Dhamma, dwells frequently in this state. Which is that unique contemplation? The Noble Disciple contemplates on the divine beings in this very way: There are the divine beings on the plane of the Four Great Kings, there are the divine beings of the World of the Thirty-three, there are a Yama World , there are the Contented Devas , there are also those enjoying own creation! There are those with power over others creations, those of the Brahma world, and those still far above them... Now, such faith, morality, wisdom, generosity, concentration and understanding, which these divine beings acted upon and which made them re-appear on a divine plane after leaving this world, such good qualities as these, are also found in me! When a Noble Disciple reflects thus, his mind is neither obsessed by any greed, nor by any hate, nor by any confusion! Uplifted and elated is his mind, and this makes the Noble Disciple gain further deeper understanding of the Dhamma, & thus makes the Noble Disciple delight in the Dhamma! Being delighted, there arises rapturous joy in him. Being filled with rapture & joy, he is inwardly satisfied & he becomes quite calm. Being calmed makes him enjoy bliss and happiness and the mind of the Happy One becomes collected, condensed and concentrated... Of this Noble Disciple, friends, it is said that among many misguided humans, among suffering humankind, he lives freed from suffering! And as one who has entered the stream to Nibb ana, he cultivates further his contemplation. When, friends, a Noble Disciple has reached the fruit of understanding the Dhamma, he dwells often with a calm smile in this state! Source: AN 6:10 Sakka king of the 33 devas, hovering about with some of his many nymphs. <..> Many devas can attain whatever form and colour at will. Some is made of light! They do not like the smell of humans like we don't like the smell of eg. pigs? There are 31 levels of existence (Human is level 5!). There thus numerous devas. Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Divine Guiding! #109114 From: "retro77@..." Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:59 pm Subject: Re: Fallacy of Mahayana Texts retro77... Greetings Kevin, Do you address Sri Lankan Buddhist texts with the same level of critical enquiry, regarding their origins and unique composition? If so, what have you or Buddhist scholars found? If not, why not? If not, what is this but a one-sided sectarian polemnic on your part, intended to discredit one set of post-First Council texts, in contrast to your preferred set of post-First Council texts? Is your approach consistent? Metta, Paul. :o) #109115 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:16 pm Subject: Re: Fallacy of Mahayana Texts ptaus1 Hi Kevin and Paul, Kevin, I too fail to see the relevance of your post regarding Tibetan Buddhism since this is "A Theravada Buddhist discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition." (from the Home page) Secondly, if you're going to use someone's words to support your argument, it would be good to actually give a proper quote instead of paraphrasing in your own words, especially in such sensitive issues as inter-sectarian polemic. At the moment, your arguments seems to me like a couple of strawmen and the entire post looks to me simply as trolling. Sorry, but that's the impression I get. Paul, your post on the other hand seems to me like a covert jab at the Mahavihara tradition, though it might also be just my biased conclusion following our many discussions on that topic on Dhammawheel. If you have some concerns/reservation about the Mahavihara commentaries and how well they uphold (or diverge from) the message in the Tipitaka (or perhaps dvipitaka in your case), this might be a good place to raise them and discuss them in case there's someone here who would like to discuss the same issue. You can also check out the relavant topics in the Useful posts file: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts.htm Best wishes pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "retro77@..." wrote: > Paul: If not, what is this but a one-sided sectarian polemnic on your part, intended to discredit one set of post-First Council texts, in contrast to your preferred set of post-First Council texts? #109116 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fallacy of Mahayana Texts farrellkevin80 Hi Pt, Pt wrote: Kevin, I too fail to see the relevance of your post regarding Tibetan Buddhism since this is "A Theravada Buddhist discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition." (from the Home page) Kevin: Perhaps I was trolling. I was not aware that I was. If I was, I apologize for it. If you would prefer that I do not post such things, please just let me know and I will refrain from doing so in the future. Thanks. P.S. I didn't quote the exact words because the posts are down along with e-sangha. Kevin ___________ #109117 From: Kevin F Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fallacy of Mahayana Texts farrellkevin80 Retro Rocker, I have more reason to believe that many Sri Lankan texts are real or at least realer than the ones I mentioned. After all, at least the Buddha was said to visit Sri Lanka in those texts while he was living. We all know from the Suttas that the Buddha could appear to certain people as he wished or make an image of himself appear due to his powers of jhana, so why not in Sri Lanka. The Sri Lankan texts, to the best of my knowledge do not state the Buddha visited Sri Lanka after his death, or that other Buddhas who are not heard of in the Pali Canon and so forth appeared. I like good discussion. That is why I can respect Namdrol for his opinions. At least he is honest about the origin of many Tibetan texts. You, on the other hand, seem to just want to take a jab at Sri Lankan texts because you believe that only the Suttas are authentic if I remember correctly. kevin ___________ #109118 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question - The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena nilovg Dear Andrew, Op 10-aug-2010, om 23:19 heeft lawstu_uk het volgende geschreven: > I have more questions because I have been reading the first few > chapters of Survey. But because I cannot sit long, I will post my > questions whenever I can. ------- N: I appreciate it very much that you are reading Survey. Do not hurry with your questions. The material is not easy and it takes time to absorb it. I especially like the passages about citta and how we see the world. I like to reread it several times. There is always something new in this book, I find. Best wishes for your health, Nina. #109119 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:03 pm Subject: Abhidhamma Series, no 25. The Seven Books of the Abhidhamma (part 2) nilovg Dear friends, The Seven Books of the Abhidhamma (part 2). The second book of the Abhidhamma is the Vibha?nga, the Book of Analysis, and its commentary is the ?Sammoha Vinodanii , translated as the ?Dispeller of Delusion? (P.T.S.). The Vibha?nga gives an explanation of the khandhas (aggregates), aayatanas (sense bases), dhaatus (elements), and several other subjects. It gives explanations according to the Suttanta method, by way of conventional terms, and the Abhidhamma method, by way of ultinmate realities. It also has sections of interrogation. The aim is, as is the case of the whole of the Abhidhamma, to develop right understanding of naama and ruupa as they appear in daily life. This book helps one to know more about the deeper lying motives of one?s thoughts and actions. One may take them for wholesome, but in fact there are very often selfish motives that are unnoticed. The section on ?the Small Items? (Khuddakavatthu Vibha?nga) is most revealing in the descriptions of akusala such as conceit. It gives an impressive list of all the objects on account of which conceit may arise (832), namely: pride of birth, of clan, of health, of youth, of life, of gain, of being honoured, of being respected, of prominence, of having adherents, of wealth, of appearance, of erudition, of intelligence, of being a knowledgeable authority.... Conceit is compared to hoisting a banner; at the moment of conceit one finds oneself important. There are many definitions of akusala, but the purpose is to know them when they arise through the development of satipa.t.thaana. We read in the section of ?the Heart of the Teaching? (1031): ?The three bad roots are to be known fully, are to be comprehended, are to be abandoned...? Abandonment can only be accomplished by fully known them and comprehending them. Among the many word explanations we read about understanding (here translated as awareness, 525): ? Therein what is awareness? That which is wisdom, understanding, investigation, research, truth investigation, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, analysis, consideration, breadth, sagacity, guidance, insight, awareness, goad, wisdom, controlling faculty of wisdom, power of wisdom, sword of wisdom, tower of wisdom, light of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, splendour of wisdom, jewel of wisdom, absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view...? It is well worth to consider these definitions. When we read about the subtlety of wisdom we are reminded that the teachings are very subtle and have to be carefully considered. Only thus there can be the lustre and splendour of wisdom that causes the darkness of ignorance to disappear. ******* Nina. #109120 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What I heard. from audio, 2007-07-03, a. part 4 nilovg Dear Alex, Op 10-aug-2010, om 23:26 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Not all desire is unwholesome. At least not always. There is > possibility of skillful cetana, chanda, adhimokkha, adhitthana and > viriya. > > Without desire for kusala and desire to get rid of akusala, the > mind would not become more skilful. ------ N: I completely agree with what you write here. It is best to use the Pali chanda, translated as desire to do. It can be kusala as well as akusala. However, when we are sincere, it is not difficult to notice that there are many more akusala cittas in a day than kusala cittas. Thus, akusala chanda arises much more often than kusala chanda. When Kh Sujin says: 'We like to experience reality, we try so hard to experience it', it is a reminder to scrutinize our cittas. It is most urgent to find out: is there lobha or kusala chanda? Each one of us has to find out for himself. Nina. #109121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sound. was: Jhana moment is just mentality nilovg Dear Vince, Op 10-aug-2010, om 23:17 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Then you says that's not citta but the element of heat which > originates sound at the moment of its presence. However, when you says > "the moment of its presence" it would mean there is an object which > has been grasped, because a presence needs a knower. Therefore, Is > not citta the spectator? ------ N: I was thinking about Howard's example of the sound of glass breaking. This is not related to citta. It happens outside, and there are only ruupa elements. No spectator or a knower. The moment of presence of ruupa : ruupa arises, is present for an extremely short while and then it falls away immediately. Howard thinks of cause and effect as we say in everyday language and in this respect he is right. Compared to the rapidity of cittas it is a long term effect. There is at first: citta with anger, motivating the throwing of a glass and then the sound of breaking. But when seeing it by way of paramattha dhammas: it happens as in a flash that temperature produces sound. There is no glass, no persons who throws it in the ultimate sense. -------- > > V: In the Suttas one can read about this: > > "And what is the fire property? ..... 'This is not mine, this is > not me, > this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present > with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the fire > property and makes the fire property fade from the mind. > * MN.62 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.062.than.html > > says: > "one becomes disenchanted with the fire property and makes the fire > property fade from the mind." > > How do you understand that "fade from the mind"? ------- N: Pali Text Society transl: he cleanses his thought of the heat element. It expresses detachment, he becomes detached. No more clinging to it, because he sees realities as they are, not mine, me or self. ------ Nina. #109122 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhammapada question gazita2002 hallo Howard, Nina and others, I think use of the word 'gods' is fine. Mayb I'm being influenced by being here in Penang where there seems to be a temple or masjid on every corner, plus little paper fires and incense burning in front of peoples houses, and lots of people with daubs of paint on their faces having jst left a temple. These varieties of beliefs come from somewhere and I'm not too interested to know where BTW - but have often thought that peoples beliefs in gods must mean there are gods hanging around somewhere. Isnt it sort of explained in Brahmajala Sutta? Anyway, its not important what we call them I suppose, but for me its useful to know 'gods' exist and that way I can be tolerant of others belief systems. patience, courage and good cheer, asita #109123 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhammapada question nilovg Dear Azita, Op 11-aug-2010, om 10:20 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > I think use of the word 'gods' is fine. ------ N: I agree that it does not matter what names we use. It is reality represented by a name that matters. Howard is right that deva means radiant one. Kusala kamma causes rebirth as a deva with radiance. Nina. #109124 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:43 am Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro chandrafabian Dear Ken, KEN H: Hi Fabian, You and I comprehend the term "practicing Vipassana" in very different ways. We both agree there needs to be Vipassana practice, but we can't agree on what that practice is. In your opinion, is my understanding a right view (samma-ditthi) or a wrong view (miccha-ditthi)? I agree I have not directly known the anatta characteristic. That is something that happens only to the very wise - shortly before Stream-entry. -------------------------------- FABIAN: Dear Ken, we see Dhamma in different angle, in my opinion "Practice makes perfect". "Practice samadhi makes perfect samadhi". Penetrating Dhamma should be with Samadhi, Noble Eightfold Path is clear about this. --------------------------------- KEN H: According to the Pali Tipitaka the practice of samadhi is a separate matter, very different from vipassana. FABIAN: Could you please tell me, where in Tipitaka mention about this? ------------------------------------------------------------- KEN H: There is no such thing in the Tipitaka as 'practising concentration.' Concentration arises in every moment of consciousness, and it takes its nature from the citta. If the citta is wholesome, the concentration is wholesome. It the citta is strong, the concentration is strong . . . and so on. FABIAN: What do you think the meaning of samadhi Ken..? -------------------------------- KEN H: That is the way it is taught in the Tipitaka. Thoughts are clearly excluded from the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. Most meditation teachers don't know that, and so they teach the opposite. Aside from the issue of thoughts (which are mere illusions and therefore don't really do anything) it is possible to see dhammas arising and passing away. But that is an advanced stage of vipassana. A beginner has a long way to go before he can do that. FABIAN: I give you a hint... read the first stanza of Dhammapada. ---------------------------------------------- KEN H: I would ask, how can deep unshakeable understanding be developed if you haven't even heard the teaching? We disagree on this simile. The way I see it, right theoretical understanding is the taste of the apricot. Right direct understanding is also the taste of apricot, but clearer and unmistakeable. Mere recitation of words (without understanding them) could be likened to seeing an apricot without tasting it. But no one is recommending that. FABIAN: maybe you confuse with Mahayana meditation Ken, there is no meditation by mere reciting words in Theravada meditation, it is your own assumption, and that is not true. You shoul read more Tipitaka, let's take example of BHIKKHU CULAPANTHAKA, he is unable to remember Dhamma, he can't even memorize a four line stanza for three months, but after The Buddha give him napkins to rub over and over his understanding developed. It is clearly he doesn't have Dhamma understanding before practice. In Jataka there are many PaccekaBuddhas reach enlightenment without learning Dhamma previously. In the place where I practice meditation a muslim woman can see the arising and passing away of her thoughts clearly. She never learn Dhamma before. -------------- KEN H: I can see your difficulty, and I sympathise with you. Your meditation teachers have told you that some sort of formal practice must be undertaken in order to bridge the gap between pariyatti and patipatti. The Tipitaka, however, says the opposite. FABIAN: Nope, that is not what I say. What I want to say is, no matter how hard you learn, without practice Samadhi you will never realize the ultimate truth. Because you did not follow the Noble eightfold Path. ------------------------------------------- KEN H: Before we change the subject I would like to remind you that I was answering your question, "What is right concentration?" But now that you have asked this other question, I can tell you that cetasikas usually take their lead from citta. As I was saying before, when the citta is kusala the accompanying concentration, effort and feeling (etc) are also kusala. The only exception is when there is panna. In that case citta and the other cetasikas take their lead from it. When there is supramundane panna (of the Ariyan Eightfold Path) there will be supramundane magga-citta and the eight supramundane path factors. FABIAN: Dear Ken, I think you should read these two links, before move on about what is samadhi, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/piyadassi/wheel001.html --------------------------- KEN H: This is explained in (for example) the Mahacattarika Sutta: "As to this, right understanding comes first. And how does right understanding come first? . . ." As I understand it, this applies not only to vipassana but also to the lesser practice of samatha. (Samatha-panna knows kusala from akusala, but it does not know the ti-lakkhana.) When there is samatha panna at the level of jhana, the citta will be jhana citta, and the relevant cetasikas will be jhana factors. FABIAN: Would you give me the link? -------------------------------- KEN H: With respect, Fabian, I could point out that none of your teachers' meditation practices are referenced in the Tipitaka. The idea of sitting quietly in order to prepare the mind for seeing dhammas simply is not found in the original texts. FABIAN: A person learn many books about swimming, with the thought I don't need to practice because I already know evrything about swimming. Have a dream one day he could become champion swimmer without practicing.. ------------------------------ KEN H: If by "learning" you mean "developing understanding of" then I would have to disagree. Right theoretical understanding can arise by conditions many, many times - over the course of many lifetimes. As it does so, it gradually increases until there is direct right understanding. That's the way it happens. There is no other way. FABIAN: There's no way ultimate realization can be achieved by learning theory only, read my simile. ----------------- KEN H: I don't want to argue, I just want to show you there is a different teaching in the original Pali texts. As I asked at the beginning: is it right view or is it wrong view? FABIAN: I don't think it is different. Right or wrong view is still a view, without practicing samadhi would still become a view. --------- <. . .> KEN H: > > I don't really think about it happening to me. I am content to know - right now - there are only dhammas, there is no me that satipatthana can happen to. FABIAN: > What is dhamma Ken? What is Satipatthana Ken...? KEN H: I assume those are rhetorical question, but I don't know what you mean by them. Perhaps you would care to explain. Ken H FABIAN: It is not rhetoric Ken, only if you practice Satipatthana you can see subtle dhamma arisses and passes away, without practice you can only dream of seeing/experiencing them. And without seeing/experiencing them, your knowledge is still a view. Mettacittena, fabian #109125 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:59 am Subject: dsg. What I heard. from audio, 2007-07-03, a. part 5. nilovg Dear friends, Azita: So, attachment hinders the development of understanding? Sujin: Attachment and ignorance, avijjaa. Pa~n~naa can eradicate lobha. When one studies the teachings carefully, one will know one's understanding of Dhamma just now. What about the understanding of visible object and seeing which arise very naturally? If there is no understanding of them it means that pa~n~naa which stems from hearing is not sufficient yet. When there is understanding of the difference between a moment of awareness and a moment of forgetfulness this can be a condition for right awareness. This can happen when it is the right time and one should not cling to this. We have to go against the current of lobha our whole life in order to understand reality as it is. Question: What do you mean by the current of lobha? Sujin: Is there no current of lobha now? When there is seeing is there no attachment to the object that is seen? When there is no pa~n~naa there is the current of lobha in relation to the six doorways all the time, jumping to this or that object. There is attachment to what has not come yet. What about this moment? --------- Nina. #109126 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:15 am Subject: knowing mind chandrafabian Dear Nina and all, For a person experiencing Nibbana it is said the stopping of all condition, but nevertheless still a knowing mind experiencing the peacefulness of Nibbana. I still did not have any idea which of the aggregates know and experience Nibbana? What is the knowing mind which experience Nibbana? Thank you for sharing. Mettacittena, fabian #109127 From: Vince Date: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sound. was: Jhana moment is just mentality cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: I was thinking about Howard's example of the sound of glass > breaking. This is not related to citta. It happens outside, and there > are only ruupa elements. No spectator or a knower. The moment of > presence of ruupa : ruupa arises, is present for an extremely short > while and then it falls away immediately. oh, ok.. Now I understand you better. You use the word "presence" as existence, without more implications. I understand the use of the word "presence" associated with an observer. A words problem at all. > But when seeing it by way of paramattha dhammas: it happens as in a > flash that temperature produces sound. There is no glass, no persons > who throws it in the ultimate sense. I cannot check these details on elements but what you says here sounds fully right to me. However, I still think such experience need of some stabilization on anatta; that's far to me. best, Vince. #109128 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: DSG photo album chandrafabian Dear Kevin, Thank you, I appreciate your help Mettacittena, fabian. #109131 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sound. was: Jhana moment is just mentality upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Vince) - In a message dated 8/11/2010 3:53:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Vince, Op 10-aug-2010, om 23:17 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Then you says that's not citta but the element of heat which > originates sound at the moment of its presence. However, when you says > "the moment of its presence" it would mean there is an object which > has been grasped, because a presence needs a knower. Therefore, Is > not citta the spectator? ------ N: I was thinking about Howard's example of the sound of glass breaking. This is not related to citta. It happens outside, and there are only ruupa elements. No spectator or a knower. The moment of presence of ruupa : ruupa arises, is present for an extremely short while and then it falls away immediately. -------------------------------------------------- The chain of conditions "began" with anger and will in the mind of "the one who hurled the glass". That anger and will, concomitant to consciousness are what I had in mind. Certainly that citta and the concomitants of anger and will were conditions for the sound (of breaking glass), though not proximate conditions. -------------------------------------------------- Howard thinks of cause and effect as we say in everyday language and in this respect he is right. --------------------------------------------------- I think in terms of chains of conditions. Moreover, in that example, motion ("air") was a condition for the sound. But in what way did temperature enter in as a condition? ------------------------------------------------- Compared to the rapidity of cittas it is a long term effect. There is at first: citta with anger, motivating the throwing of a glass and then the sound of breaking. ---------------------------------------------- Yes! Long term, not immediate. Agreed. --------------------------------------------- But when seeing it by way of paramattha dhammas: it happens as in a flash that temperature produces sound. ------------------------------------------------- The examples are few and far between. The examples for motion, however, are many and easily found. ------------------------------------------------- There is no glass, no persons who throws it in the ultimate sense. -------------------------------------------------- I would say the same for temperature and motion and cittas. IMO, they are simply finer-grain constructs separated out from the stream of experience. But this isn't the point. The point is that I see little basis for emphasizing temperature over motion as a condition for sound. --------------------------------------------------- -------- > > V: In the Suttas one can read about this: > > "And what is the fire property? ..... 'This is not mine, this is > not me, > this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present > with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the fire > property and makes the fire property fade from the mind. > * MN.62 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.062.than.html > > says: > "one becomes disenchanted with the fire property and makes the fire > property fade from the mind." > > How do you understand that "fade from the mind"? ------- N: Pali Text Society transl: he cleanses his thought of the heat element. It expresses detachment, he becomes detached. No more clinging to it, because he sees realities as they are, not mine, me or self. ------ Nina. ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109132 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhammapada question upasaka_howard Hi, Asita (and Nina & all) - In a message dated 8/11/2010 4:27:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@... writes: hallo Howard, Nina and others, I think use of the word 'gods' is fine. Mayb I'm being influenced by being here in Penang where there seems to be a temple or masjid on every corner, plus little paper fires and incense burning in front of peoples houses, and lots of people with daubs of paint on their faces having jst left a temple. ----------------------------------------------------- Well, the usage doesn't bother me too much, but I don't think it is optimal. Possibly to stick with the Pali word might be good. ---------------------------------------------------- These varieties of beliefs come from somewhere and I'm not too interested to know where BTW - but have often thought that peoples beliefs in gods must mean there are gods hanging around somewhere. ---------------------------------------------------- The universality of belief does suggest that it is motivated by some sort of reality. (Of course, there is a widespread belief in selves and souls as well! ;-) I do happen to believe that devas likely exist. ------------------------------------------------------ Isnt it sort of explained in Brahmajala Sutta? -------------------------------------------------- Isn't WHAT explained there? ------------------------------------------------ Anyway, its not important what we call them I suppose, but for me its useful to know 'gods' exist and that way I can be tolerant of others belief systems. --------------------------------------------------- I don't think any single tradition has a monopoly on truth. ------------------------------------------------- patience, courage and good cheer, asita =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109133 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:14 pm Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro kenhowardau Hi Fabian, We have reached an impasse. I keep saying understanding comes first; you keep saying concentration comes first. Until we have settled this issue there is no point in going on. However, I might be able to clear up some misunderstandings: --------------------------------- KEN H: According to the Pali Tipitaka the practice of samadhi is a separate matter, very different from vipassana. FABIAN: Could you please tell me, where in Tipitaka mention about this? ---------------------------------- I meant to say that there were two types of mental-development (practices), samatha and vipassana. Both types involve the universal cetasika samadhi, but they are different in extremely important ways. One leads to [mundane] jhana, which is the suppression of hindrances, the other leads to [supramundane] jhana, which is vipassana - the eradication of defilements. In the Buddha's day, many monks practised both types. And so many suttas can be confusing if we don't know precisely to whom they were addressed. If we are not careful, we can get the impression that *everyone* has to attain both mundane jhana and vipassana. -------------------------- KEN H: > > There is no such thing in the Tipitaka as 'practising concentration.' Concentration arises in every moment of consciousness, and it takes its nature from the citta. If the citta is wholesome, the concentration is wholesome. If the citta is strong, the concentration is strong . . . and so on. FABIAN: > What do you think the meaning of samadhi Ken..? -------------------------- Just what I said. Samadhi is concentration. There is kusala concentration and there is akusala concentration. There is strong concentration and there is weak concentration. The suttas often use the word 'samadhi' to refer only to strong kusala concentration. Sometimes they use it to refer only to [strong kusala] vipassana concentration. So we have to be aware of the context. ------------------------------ FABIAN: > I give you a hint... read the first stanza of Dhammapada. ------------------------------ Sorry, the hint wasn't strong enough. What, in particular, did you want me to learn from that stanza? ------------------------------------------------- KH: > > Mere recitation of words (without understanding them) could be likened to seeing an apricot without tasting it. But no one is recommending that. > > FABIAN: > maybe you confuse with Mahayana meditation Ken, there is no meditation by mere reciting words in Theravada meditation, it is your own assumption, and that is not true. -------------------------------------------------- I don't know why you are telling me that - after I tried so hard to tell you that *no one* (not even Mahayana) recommended mere recitation. --------------------------------------- F: > You should read more Tipitaka, let's take example of BHIKKHU CULAPANTHAKA, he is unable to remember Dhamma, he can't even memorize a four line stanza for three months, but after The Buddha give him napkins to rub over and over his understanding developed. It is clearly he doesn't have Dhamma understanding before practice. --------------------------------------- Actually Culapanthaka had developed a great deal of understanding in previous lifetimes. However, he had a learning difficulty in this lifetime, and so the Buddha had to employ an additional teaching method - adapted specifically for him. ---------------------------------------------- F: > In Jataka there are many PaccekaBuddhas reach enlightenment without learning Dhamma previously. --------------------------------------------- The same principle applies as with Culapanthaka. All pacceka-buddhas have learnt the Dhamma from previous Buddhas in many previous lifetimes. -------------------------------- F: > In the place where I practice meditation a muslim woman can see the arising and passing away of her thoughts clearly. She never learn Dhamma before. -------------------------------- I can only repeat what I have already tried to tell you: thoughts are not conditioned dhammas. They do not arise and pass away in the way that dhammas do. They cannot be taken as objects of insight. I realise this is contrary to what you have been taught, and I am not trying to change your mind. I only want you to know that the Tipitaka contains a teaching that is different from what is commonly taught by modern-day meditation instructors. ----------------------- FABIAN: > I think you should read these two links, before move on about what is samadhi, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/piyadassi/wheel001.html ------------------------ Thanks, but sutta quotes by themselves prove nothing. They need to be understood and considered in the right way. That's why we have Dhamma discussions. DSG has discussed both of those suttas many times over recent years, and so I understand them in the way I have been trying to describe to you. If you feel inclined to give your interpretation of them, please do. ----------------------------------- KEN H: This is explained in (for example) the Mahacattarika Sutta: "As to this, right understanding comes first. And how does right understanding come first? . . ." <. . .> FABIAN: Would you give me the link? -------------------------------- Sorry about the spelling, apparently it is the Maha-cattarisaka Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html ------------------------------------------------ <. . .> FABIAN: Right or wrong view is still a view, without practicing samadhi would still become a view. ------------------------------------------------- You really must learn some Abhidhamma. Right view is one of the factors of both satipatthana and the Ariyan Eightfold Path. It is the leader (and the foremost) of those factors. Right View is basically the entire teaching of the Buddha. Ken H #109134 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: DSG photo album sarahprocter... Dear Fabian, Apologies for asking you more than once (I forget who I've nagged already!). In any case, you've now uploaded a very nice pic in the DSG member album, so thank you very much. (As it happens, we're just waiting for Pt to arrive at our place in Sydney any moment now, so I'll try to nag him again:-)) Thx for all your interesting discussions. It doesn't matter at all if there are disagreements. I apologise to all for having been so quiet. Jon and I are just getting over a bout of flu and fly to Hong Kong on Sunday. We've been appreciating all the threads meanwhile. Metta Sarah --- On Mon, 9/8/10, chandrafabian wrote: >I think it's not nice if I am waiting for you to ask three times :) #109135 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:36 am Subject: Cittas - sub-moments sarahprocter... Dear Pt, We've been discussing some interesting topics this afternoon in between testing different microphones for our recording in Bangkok and eating. A delightful time, even though I'm still a little poorly from my flu symptoms. One of the topics you raised relates to the "sub-moments" of cittas as discussed in the suttas and Abhidhamma. If you look in UP under "cittas - sub-moments", you'll find more. Here's the first message I just found there. Ok, time to check how you and Jon are doing with your technical issues! Metta Sarah #90556 Hi Paul, --- On Tue, 23/9/08, Video_586 wrote: >The quotation you referred to expressed the "arising" of a dhamma and presumably elsewhere there is corresponding mention of a "passing away" too. From the Abhidhammic perspective, is there any period in which a particular dhamma can be understood to be existent and/or static inbetween the period of its arising and passing away... or is there no period in which the dhamma is deemed to be static with definable and stable characteristics? .... S: That's a good question. Whilst dhammas can be understood to be existent and with definable characteristics, like a wave, there is no time at which they are 'static' or 'stable' in the sense of being unchanging. Let's take cittas (moments of consciousness and accompanying mental factors), though they are said to have an arising, presence and dissolution, there is a continual change occurring. The impermanence is of course a characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. On this point, B.Bodhi et al give this Guide note in C.M.A. (translation of Abhidhammattha Sangaha). [Btw, if you're wishing to become more familiar with the Abhidhamma, this is a very useful reference text.]: Ch VI, guide to #6 "The life-span of a citta is termed, in the Abhidhamma, a mind-moment (cittakkha.na). This is a temporal unit of such brief duration that, according to the commentators, in the time it takes for lightning to flash or the eyes to blink, billions of mind-moments can elapse. Nevertheless, though seemingly infinitesimal, each mind-moment in turn consists of three sub-moments - arising (uppaada), presence (.thiti), and dissolution (bhanga). Within the breadth of a mind-moment, a citta arises, performs its momentary function, and then dissolves, conditioning the next citta in immediate succession. Thus, through the sequence of mind-moments, the flow of consciousness continues uninterrupted like the waters in a stream. "....The Vibhaavinii [S: commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha] points out that the sub-moment of presence is a stage in the occurrence of a dhamma separate from the stages of arising and dissolution, during which the dhamma "stands facing its own dissolution" (bhangaabhimukhaavathaa)......Many commentators take the presence moment to be implied by the Buddha's statement: "There are three conditioned characteristics of the conditioned: arising, passing away, and the alteration of that which stands" (A.3:47/i,152). Here the presence moment is identified with "the alteration of that which stands" (.thitassa a~n~nathatta)." ... S: If we take an example, such as seeing consciousness, it arises, is in a state of flux and falls away immediately conditioning the next citta. Even so, it has its particular characteristic of experiencing what is visible. It's a conditioned dhamma which is anicca, thereby dukkha and anatta, beyond anyone's control. It is only by understanding its characteristic as distinct from that of say, visible object or thinking about what is seen, that gradually the understanding will grow which can eventually understand the impermanence of dhammas directly. #109136 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:04 am Subject: "the mind-made acquisition of a self" sarahprocter... Dear Pt, You referred to the expression "the mind-made acquisition of a self". This can be found in Thanissaro's translation of the Po.t.thapaada Sutta, DN 9: "...the gross acquisition of a self, the mind-made acquisition of a self, and the formless acquisition of a self. [9] And what is the gross acquisition of a self? Possessed of form, made up of the four great existents, feeding on physical food: this is the gross acquisition of a self. And what is the mind-made acquisition of a self? Possessed of form, mind-made, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties: this is the mind-made acquisition of a self. And what is the formless acquisition of a self? Formless and made of perception: this is the formless acquisition of a self." ... S: In the Walsh translation, "a mind-made self complete with all its parts" is used and a note refers us to DN1, Brahmajaala Sutta and Wrong View 53 where the same expression is used. This is referring to that which is "produced by the jhaana-mind (DA" These seem to be referring to the various wrong views under the section of annihilationism (ucchedavaada). There is a lot more detail on these various wrong views in B.Bodhi's translation of the Brahmajaala Sutta and its commentaries. Others may like to add more, but I need to check on how you're doing in Jon's study! Metta Sarah ======= #109137 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:20 am Subject: To Sarah. Questions to Ajahn Sujin szmicio Dear Sarah, Nina I have some questions to Acharn: Dear Acharn, 1. I live in Poland. Since few years I used to apply Dhamma in life.I consider it in my daily life. If I have any problems, that's fine, a lot of consideration on anattaness and thios present moment. But mostly I have no problems, so I enjoy pleasant feeling without any understanding forgetting dhamma. How can i change this? How can I apply mind more to the present and be less forgetful? 2.What is siila? I don't understand it. What is it? 3. I want to be smarter but i cantmake myself smarter. I want to be more kind and gentle in speach, but i cant.I want to have more siila and I cant. I want to live according to Dhamma and I cant. I still practice this Dhamma and I want this I want that. I want to end all this craving and I cant. 4. It seems that thinking goes its own ways. When it appears it cannot be changed. Is it OK to reflect anattaness of thinking? Does it change much? 5. How to investigate this present moment? 6. Maybe I should observe feelings in the body? 7. Why there's no somanassa and domanassa vedana included in vedanupassana in satipatthana sutta? 8. What about anicca? Isnt it sufficient to develop more detachment? more understanding? 9. How do you understand sacca parami? Is it the quality of right speach or is it the quality that is development of 4NT? As I remember You used to say this is sincerityaccording to our accumulations, how much one is sincere to all his accumulations. Could you explain sacca parami? 10. Could you say more on 3 kinds of kusala vitaka and 3 kinds of akusala vitakka 11. When I have a thought on going to renounciation and if this is kusala determination, what's the job of kusala vitakka then? 12.If such thought on renunciation is not present, is it bad? I cant do nothing to make such kusala thiought to arise. I feel sad because of that. 13. What's the characteristic of visible object. Is it good to isolate thinking from the visible object. 14. how do you understand 3 gems. the gem of Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha? 15. Maybe I should give more attention to sukkha and dukkha vedana than to visible object? 16. Sukkha/dukkha vedana seems to be more important than any other rupa. It is painful. 17. Maybe if I will observe vedanas there will be less misery, if learn how to observe and not react? 18."Leave it to conditions" - this seems to be so wonderful refuge. 19.What about attachment to reading and listening to the Dhamma. It seems I have such attachment. 20. I have doubts. It's not pleasant. 21. I will be living my normal life as I do it, but doubts are present. And this thinking, I dont like it. Best wishes Lukas #109138 From: "gr8fuldawg2010" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:43 am Subject: photo album gr8fuldawg2010 Nina & Group, I finally got around to posting pics of MY kids (LOL), and my wife (Liz). I didn't have any recent with us all togather so I posted them individually. Just wanted to let you know. Peace, Love, & Happiness Ryan #109139 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision mak... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Fabian) - In a message dated 8/11/2010 10:20:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: In the Buddha's day, many monks practised both types. And so many suttas can be confusing if we don't know precisely to whom they were addressed. If we are not careful, we can get the impression that *everyone* has to attain both mundane jhana and vipassana. ================================ There is a sutta that teaches exactly that, namely AN 4.94. If one knows one, then go to a teacher to learn the other. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109140 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] photo album nilovg Dear Ryan (and pt.), Thank you. Yahoo does not let me see them, even after giving my password. I'll try again. Nina. Op 12-aug-2010, om 14:43 heeft gr8fuldawg2010 het volgende geschreven: > I finally got around to posting pics of MY kids (LOL), and my wife > (Liz). I didn't have any recent with us all togather so I posted > them individually. Just wanted to let you know. #109141 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah. Questions to Ajahn Sujin nilovg Dear Lukas, Thank you for the questions. It is good if several people have a try. There are many, and we can just take one or two at a time. NIna. Op 12-aug-2010, om 13:20 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > I have some questions to Acharn: > > Dear Acharn, > > 1. I live in Poland. Since few years I used to apply Dhamma in > life.I consider it in my daily life. #109142 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] knowing mind nilovg Dear Fabian, Op 11-aug-2010, om 11:15 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven: > For a person experiencing Nibbana it is said the stopping of all > condition, but nevertheless still a knowing mind experiencing the > peacefulness of Nibbana. > > I still did not have any idea which of the aggregates know and > experience Nibbana? > > What is the knowing mind which experience Nibbana? ------ N: It is lokuttara citta accompanied by lokuttara pa~n~naa. When pa~n~naa has been developed through insight stage by stage, it clearly understands the three characteristics of realities. In the course of insight detachment from conditioned realities grows and there is more inclination to the unconditioned reality, nibbaana. Then lokuttara citta can arise which directly experience nibbaana. Lokuttara citta is another plane of citta, different from the sensesphere cittas that experience sense objects, and different from mundane jhaanacittas that experience the meditation subjects of jhaana. The four naama khandhas that are lokuttara experience nibbaana. They are citta and the accompanying cetasikas. As to the stopping of all conditions, this refers to the attainment of arahatship. For him there are no more conditions for rebirth. Nina. #109143 From: "lawstu_uk" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:24 am Subject: A question on Survey Chapter 4 lawstu_uk I've got a question regarding Survey: Chapter 4: When comparing the duration of rupa with the duration of citta, one unit of rupa arises and falls away in the time seventeen cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another and this is extremely fast. For example, it seems that at this moment the citta which sees and the citta which hears appear at the same time, but in reality they arise and fall away apart from each other, with more than seventeen moments of citta in between them. Therefore, the rupa which arises at the same time as the citta which sees must arise and fall away before the citta which hears arises. I understand citta arises and falls away faster than rupa. But I don't understand these following sentences: 'When comparing the duration of rupa with the duration of citta, one unit of rupa arises and falls away in the time seventeen cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another and this is extremely fast. it seems that at this moment the citta which sees and the citta which hears appear at the same time, but in reality they arise and fall away apart from each other, with more than seventeen moments of citta in between them. Therefore, the rupa which arises at the same time as the citta which sees must arise and fall away before the citta which hears arises.' 'With more than seventeen moments of citta in between them' -- Here, between 'them' I assume it is betweem the citta 'seeing' and the citta 'hearing'. 'Therefore, the rupa which arises at the same time as the citta which sees must arise and fall away before the citta which hears arises.' _________________ I wonder if anyone could explain this further to me. Does it mean between seeing and hearing, there are seventeen cittas? It is because the units of rupas (conditioning seeing or hearing) arise and fall seventeen times 'slower' than cittas. So there are another seventeen cittas between seeing and hearing. What are they? Also, because rupas conditions the arises of cittas. And citta is to experience rupa. So what other rupas are there for the arising of the 17 cittas (to experience) between seeing and hearing? And if in this case, it doesn't sound 'logical' -- because between each rupa conditioning each of the 17 cittas (between seeing and hearing) there must be another 17 cittas then. So in between seeing and hearing, there are unlimited rupas and cittas? Thanks in advance. With metta, Andrew #109144 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question on Survey Chapter 4 nilovg Dear Andrew, I shall look more at your questions later on. Meanwhile, I give you an idea of a process of cittas, quoting from my appendix 2 to Conditions. Never mind about all the names of cittas, the details can be looked at later on. Op 12-aug-2010, om 18:24 heeft lawstu_uk het volgende geschreven: > It is because the units of rupas (conditioning seeing or hearing) > arise and fall seventeen times 'slower' than cittas. ------- When a sense object, which is r?pa, impinges on one of the sensedoors, it is experienced by several cittas arising in a sense- door process. R?pa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta and then it falls away. If r?pa arises at the moment of the ?past bhavanga? and if the sense-door process of cittas runs its full course, there are, counting from the ?past bhavanga?, seventeen moments of citta. These seventeen moments of citta are as follows: 1 at?ta-bhavanga (past bhavanga) 2 bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) 3 bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga, the last bhavanga arising before the object is experienced through the sense-door) 4 five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness (pa?cadv?r?vajjana-citta), which is a kiriyacitta 5 sense-cognition (dvi-pa?cavi????a, seeing-consciousness, etc.), which is vip?kacitta 6 receiving-consciousness (sampa?icchana-citta), which is vip?kacitta 7 investigating-consciousness (sant?ra?a-citta) which is vip?kacitta 8 determining-consciousness (votthapana-citta) which is kiriyacitta 9 javana-citta (?impulsion?, kusala citta or akusala citta in the case of non-arahats) 10 ? ? 11 ? ? 12 ? ? 13 ? ? 14 ? ? 15 ? ? 16 registering-consciousness (tad?ramma?a-citta) which is vip?kacitta 17 registering-consciousness --------- Nina. #109145 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] photo album sarahprocter... Dear Ryan, --- On Thu, 12/8/10, gr8fuldawg2010 wrote: >I finally got around to posting pics of MY kids (LOL), and my wife (Liz). I didn't have any recent with us all togather so I posted them individually. Just wanted to let you know. .... S: Great pics of your lovely-looking family! Thx for sharing them in the "Significant Others" folder! Metta Sarah p.s Nina, I'm not sure what your difficulty is. Are you looking in the right album? Also, when you go to DSG, you should see at the top of the page a line which says: "Activity within 7 days:129 New Messages - 13 New Photos". If you just click on "new photos" it just brings up the photos put there in the last 7 days - no need to go to any album. ========= #109146 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah. Questions to Ajahn Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Many thanks for the Qus. which I'll try to raise as I know you'd particularly like her brief responses, even if they are "I, I, I..." responses:-)) Seems like a long time since we've shared Dhamma together. How would you respond to the questions if someone else were to ask you? What have you been reading recently? How's life in Poland? Metta Sarah --- On Thu, 12/8/10, Lukas wrote: > I have some questions to Acharn: Dear Acharn, 1. I live in Poland. Since few years I used to apply Dhamma in life.I consider it in my daily life. If I have any problems, that's fine, a lot of consideration on anattaness and thios present moment. But mostly I have no problems, so I enjoy pleasant feeling without any understanding forgetting dhamma. How can i change this? How can I apply mind more to the present and be less forgetful? #109147 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:35 pm Subject: Re: A question on Survey Chapter 4 kenhowardau Hi Andrew, Thanks for the questions. I like a quiz. :-) I wrote my answers before reading to the end - and I was assuming that you already knew about the seventeen cittas in a process. But you didn't, and so my answers wouldn't have helped much. But I now see that Nina has subsequently told you about the seventeen, so I will post my answers anyway. ------------ A: > I wonder if anyone could explain this further to me. Does it mean between seeing and hearing, there are seventeen cittas? ------------- Yes, I think there would be an absolute minimum of seventeen - usually many more. In the eye-door citta-process, the actual moment of seeing is the fifth of seventeen. (So there will be twelve more cittas before the end of the process.) Similarly, in an ear-door citta-process the actual moment of hearing is the fifth. (So there will be four in front of it.) Twelve plus four equals sixteen, not seventeen (!). But no two citta processes ever follow immediately one after the other - there is always at least one bavangha citta (usually many more) in between. So there will be an absolute minimum of seventeen cittas between seeing and hearing. --------------------- A: > It is because the units of rupas (conditioning seeing or hearing) arise and fall seventeen times 'slower' than cittas. --------------------- I don't think so. Even if a rupa lasted more than seventeen times as long as a citta (and therefore continued to exist after the eye-door process had finished) the number of cittas between seeing and hearing would remain the same. ------------------------- A: > So there are another seventeen cittas between seeing and hearing. What are they? ------------------------- Ah, sorry, this is where I realised you didn't know about citta processes! ----------------------- A: > Also, because rupas conditions the arises of cittas. And citta is to experience rupa. So what other rupas are there for the arising of the 17 cittas (to experience) between seeing and hearing? ----------------------- As you will now know from Nina's list, a sense-rupa is experienced by several different types of citta that are capable of arising at the sense-door. ---------------------- A: > And if in this case, it doesn't sound 'logical' -- because between each rupa conditioning each of the 17 cittas (between seeing and hearing) there must be another 17 cittas then. So in between seeing and hearing, there are unlimited rupas and cittas? ----------------------- I couldn't quite follow that question, but you have probably worked it out by now. Ken H #109148 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:45 pm Subject: Waves or Wires? Pt's 2nd visit sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Pt came over to spend another long afternoon with us in Manly yesterday. He was a little held up in the City (Sydney), trying to buy some piece of recording equipment for us before taking the ferry over. It was another lovely, sunny day, majestic off-shore waves standing up with plumes of spray trailing behind like a wedding veil in the sunlight. Pt would have a lovely ferry ride without swimming-with-the-shark worries this time:-). We went to meet him, but when we found he was held up, we went to the little Japanese restaurant and ate our noodles, bringing some take-away noodles back for him. So when he arrived, we sat on our balcony while Pt ate half his noodles, followed by some chocolate he'd brought. He's very, very easy to cater for! Pt prefers to have his back to the waves to avoid any glare (even though it had clouded over and he had a good outback hat:-/), so he's learning all about the back-yards of our neighbours and wondered if we'd met the ones with a Tibetan flag as yet. I hadn't even noticed it because I always face the waves:-). Pt came prepared with a list of Qus, a list of technical points to cover and one or two other lists as well. This was to be a serious, not-wasting-a-moment several hours, but we managed to have a lot of fun too. We moved inside to the dining room table and sat there for a good long while, hours in fact,? with the surface covered with wires, microphones, adaptors, sound mixers and the rest of Pt's and Jon's bags of tricks in this department. We tested different recording systems and in between, when we (that means me!) needed a break from the technical discussions and testing, we'd encourage him to raise his Dhamma points. The main Dhamma points (which I'll leave Pt to elaborate on!!), revolved around Samatha (it's meaning, Beginners, Vism and counting breaths, shoulds, dangers of following breath and jhanas, "Doing samatha", continuous sati, continuous jhana, lobha, lobha, lobha, akusala conditioning kusala, calm - kusala or akusala, candle flames, meaning of kasina - "everything", Atth ref to breath as air kasina), Working out Mind-Moments - just this moment now!, 3 stages of dhammas, forgetfullness in the kitchen (who's counting?), now, now, now, metta to oneself - no!, this moment - no buts as Ken H always says!, the beginner with no kusala chandha or adhimokkha - who minds?, niyamas, metta, wanting more, no detachment, Alex's ideas of kusala when practising only and akusala practise creating kusala conditions, helping others, knowing kusala and calm. Pt is an extremely helpful person as most of you already know. To be with him reminds me of being with Kom or Jon in his 30s- lots and lots of energy for helping and finding ways to be of assistance. So we talked about understanding kusala and calm when it arrives naturally - no need to go looking for it or trying to make it happen. We continued to have fun palying with wires, discussing Dhamma and eventually it was time for a small supper snack, so Pt had the second half of his noodles, with more green tea, followed by more chocolate, Jon had some pitta bread and avocado and I had hot lemon and honey for my flu symptoms, all amongst the wires, cables and adaptors where Pt felt so comfortable. I started coughing and popped outside to bring in the washing. There were beautiful views and I did then persuade Pt and Jon to come out to the balcony for about 2 mins only (2 mins out of 6 hrs!) to look at a beautiful rainbow over the ocean with a few surfers making the most of the last of the light and behind us a soft sunset with a very clear light that we only ever see in these really unpolluted skies. But enjoying the views was not in his schedule (nor was an evening beach walk which had been in our schedule for him!!), so then, it was quickly back to business to get through the rest of Pt's list of tasks, checking the recording and editing on Jon's computer (which was when I had time to write my messages to Pt), some downloads on my computer and then eventually a five mins break which we almost had to force him to take, with a little more choc, before setting off in the cool evening for his long and late ferry and bus rides home. Next time, Ken H and perhaps others (Herman?, Chris?, Antony?) will be here to encourage Pt to take that walk along the beach, look out for the dolphins and various parrots, penguins and lizards, in between the wires and microphones, and most importantly to help stress this moment, samatha and any other kusala developing naturally now:-)) Of course, as Ken O has been reminding everyone, it's not about Lodewijk, the waves or the tool-kit, it's about lobha now for visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes and tangible objects. Different accumulations, but all lobha for oneself regardless. Pt, thanks so much for coming over! It's a pleasure to have you around and you also give me many helpful reminders in your kind, diplomatic way (just like on the list). Let us know when you're moving in! Now - seeing, visible object, thinking - let's not be led astray looking for any other objects which don't appear at this moment, as we speak. Is there breath appearing now? If not, why be concerned about it? Metta Sarah p.s And All, no photo - apparently a security issue. The Russian connection!#$%! Ask no more. ======== #109149 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision mak... kenhowardau Hi Howard, ------------ In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Fabian) - > > In a message dated 8/11/2010 10:20:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > In the Buddha's day, many monks practised both types. And so many suttas > can be confusing if we don't know precisely to whom they were addressed. If > we are not careful, we can get the impression that *everyone* has to attain > both mundane jhana and vipassana. > ================================ > There is a sutta that teaches exactly that, namely AN 4.94. If one > knows one, then go to a teacher to learn the other. > ---------------- But wouldn't that be a case in point? It seems obvious to me that the Buddha was addressing a group of monks who were capable of both mundane jhana and vipassana development. Ken H #109150 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:01 pm Subject: Re: Waves or Wires? Pt's 2nd visit kenhowardau Hi Sarah, What an excellent day, and with weather to match! For non-surfers, we should explain that "off-shore waves" are waves that have an off-shore wind blowing on them. Always the best kind! ------------- S: > Next time, Ken H and perhaps others (Herman?, Chris?, Antony?) will be here to encourage Pt to take that walk along the beach, look out for the dolphins and various parrots, penguins and lizards, in between the wires and microphones, and most importantly to help stress this moment, samatha and any other kusala developing naturally now:-)) -------------- Penguins! Nobody told me there would be penguins! And chocolate . . . I'll be there next time for sure. You might have to prepare pt for my age, though. I turned 60 this week, and I don't want any comments! :-) --------------- S: > p.s And All, no photo - apparently a security issue. <. . . . > Ask no more --------------- I think the damage is done. :-) Commiserations, pt! Ken H #109151 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Waves or Wires? Pt's 2nd visit sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- On Fri, 13/8/10, Ken H wrote: >What an excellent day, and with weather to match! >For non-surfers, we should explain that "off-shore waves" are waves that have an off-shore wind blowing on them. Always the best kind! .... S: The Wave-watching non-Meds will definitely have majority votes next-time! ... >Penguins! Nobody told me there would be penguins! And chocolate . . . I'll be there next time for sure. ... S: Yes, well the very small "fairy penguins" are very shy, so you have to be lucky, and if you're up in the middle of the night, I believe it helps.... We have seen a very few before, but not this time - too busy house-cleaning! >You might have to prepare pt for my age, though. I turned 60 this week, and I don't want any comments! :-) ... S: OK, after "Congratulations!", no more. Yes, I noted how we seemed rather old! Just another citta rolling on.... how many aons and kalpas old in samsara are they? Anyway once citta, one birth at a moment... As for the choco - I think Pt had decided our diet was a little too healthy and needed some serious sweetening, so I'm sure he'll be delighted to have you to share the choc bar with next time! OK, anyone - forget the waves and wires, there's chocolate with the Dhamma discussion for anyone who makes the trip here! I'm looking forward to a more sensible report from Jon and/or Pt now! Metta Sarah ======== #109152 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:39 pm Subject: Re: Susima sutta, dry insight? sarahprocter... Hi Lukas and all, [Some very belated replies. Today I'm grounded - no going outside, no talking as I need to recover before our flight on Sunday. A good posting opportunity!] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > > One citta at a time... > > L: This is so hard to remember this. ... S: We forget and there's always "a now" to remember. .... > > I just get back from a party with my friends. We had very enjoyable time and i realise i forgot Dhamma. this constantly happens since I am not reading Dhamma recently. .... S: All long gone....even all the events of yesterday, this morning, a few moments ago. So instead of being concerned about the forgetfulness that's passed, what about being aware of the reality appearing now? Life really is just at this moment.... Metta Sarah ========== #109153 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:47 pm Subject: Re: Little selves? sarahprocter... Hi Paul (& Scott), I was glad to see from a recent message that you're still "hanging in" here. You ask some pertinent questions as in #107068. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "retro77@..." wrote: > > Greetings Scott, > > Scott: There is no 'Abhidhamma-geared' practise. I don't observe anything. > > Paul: Well, what is done with this information? Surely it's meant to be applied in some way, otherwise what practical use is it? What is an Abhidhammika and what do they do with all these classification schemes? ... S: I don't know what "an Abhidhammika" means and also see no value in just collecting and memorising "classification schemes". To me, seeing consciousness now is Abhidhamma, visible object is Abhidhamma, sati (awareness) is Abhidhamma. In other words, Abhidhamma means the same as Dhamma - it's just referring to the realities in life. Abhi- just means 'higher', so it's a more precise definition of these realities than the one that is given in worldly/conventional language. However, the seeing, the hearing, the likes and dislikes, the truths to be understood at this moment, are just the same. Metta Sarah p.s hoping you and Scott may continue your discussion after a few months' break on each side! ======= #109154 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision mak... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/12/2010 8:21:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: But wouldn't that be a case in point? It seems obvious to me that the Buddha was addressing a group of monks who were capable of both mundane jhana and vipassana development. ========================== He addressed folks with experience in samadhi but not vipassana, in vipassana but not samadhi, in neither, and in both. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109155 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello / Metta Bhavana sarahprocter... Hi Robin, We haven't heard from you for sometime either. How's rural Illinois - a little warmer? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" wrote: > 15 Karaniya Metta Sutta (p 95).mp3 > http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Chants/Chants.html <...> > Before I practiced this, I often had to deal with difficult people in my daily life. Now, those same people are very cheerful and helpful. > ... S: A good example of metta in daily life. When there is metta, there are no difficult people - just opportunities for kindness. I especially appreciated Ken H's recent reminders that "the good friend" is just a citta now. At a moment of metta now, the citta is the good friend. Metta Sarah ===== #109156 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:03 pm Subject: Re: Susima sutta, dry insight? sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (& Kevin) #107053 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > This is wonderful you have comments to this Sutta. > > I like from the Sutta: > > <"Thus, Susima, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' > > "Any feeling whatsoever... > > "Any perception whatsoever... > > "Any fabrications whatsoever... > > "Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' .... S: And this is the meaning of "khandha" as described above. Any rupa or nama whatsoever is anatta and not worth clinging to for an instant. .... > "Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"> ... Thanks for sharing! Metta Sarah ======= #109157 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:12 pm Subject: Re: Little selves? sarahprocter... Hi Alex & Paul, #107050 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > What I think is really inappropriate is to use "absolute realities". The name is just too loaded with ontological and philosophical implications. The philosophizing is in calling anything to be an "absolute reality". > > I am not sure why some people don't want to call them something less solid & Atman-like, like "fundamental experiential phenomena" or "basic units of experience". .... S: How about "dhammas" or "dhammaa" or "realities"? Absolute realities is just a translation of "paramattha dhammas", used to distinguish such dhammas from conventional realities. Should a distinction not be made between visible object and say, cars or trees in your experience? ... > And ultimately it is mind that knows, distinguishes and knows characteristics. So in a sense the characteristics require mind to know them and it is impossible to know anything outside of one's mind. ... S: Yes, and by knowing that it is only visible object that is seen or hardness that is felt, for example, the idea that anything else exists other than these paramattha dhammas or "absolute realities", begins to disappear. Panna brings us closer and closer to the Truths about such dhammas which the Buddha taught. .... > > It seems that to posit ontology beyond what is known (a mental cognition) is philosophizing (which may be wrong or right, but philosophizing nonetheless). ... S: And therefore not the Path. Metta Sarah ======= #109158 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:17 pm Subject: Re: Anger. How to stop / with .Metta-Karuna / sarahprocter... Hi Robin (& Lukas), L:> > Dear Robin, > no one can change this. This is impossibe to change unpleasant feeling for pleasant. Even if we decide to take pain killers, this is conditioned moment it arose in you it;s gone now. And we will be thinink i decidet to take pain killers I can control realties. This thinking is also conditioned. > > If more we understand that each moments is out of control there is less misery. > > > R:> FWIW, I can not accept this at this moment. I think there is control. Otherwise, Samma Vayama as explained in the Sutta makes no sense. ... S: It makes no sense UNLESS we understand it as referring to yet another conditioned dhamma with arises with wholesome cittas. At the moment of wholesome states of mind, unwholesome states are prevented and wholesome states are developed. Lots, lots more on this in U.P. under "Effort - right". Metta Sarah ======= #109159 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind independent matter & matter formations sarahprocter... Hi Nori, #106650 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > Good to see, you seem well again. ... S: Well, all these namas and rupas are sick - ageing and decaying as soon as they've arisen - if we only realised it! .... > > S: Can we say that we therefore all live in our own worlds - our own worlds of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking? > --- > > No, you are right on the point. We live in our own worlds, and without a doubt vi~n~na.na and the seen, heard, etc. has a close interdependence. > > My contemplation is - what is the nature of any co-dependence, if it relates to things existing 'out there' independently? vi~n~na.na to (those things). .... S: I forget the exact context of the discussion. Let's take the visible objects and other rupas 'out there' as conditioned by temperature. If there is no experience of them, they arise and fall away unexperienced. If there are conditions, i.e. kamma in particular, to experience any visible object, sound or other 'out there' rupa at this moment, then there is a 'coming together' of these inner and outer ayatanas. .... .... > S:"We think we see and experience other people, but really just see visible object and think about what is seen." > >N: I think I see what you are saying; but also am contemplating the issue, which maybe Buddha advises against: contemplating whether there are independently existing things - "out there" and whether vi~n~na.na has some sort of co-dependence or support on them; what is the nature in which we exist; how we (all things) exist. > > (but maybe futile to ask..) .... S: Not futile, good questions. I just apologise for my delayed response. Of course, when we talk about 'we', as you know, 'we' are just namas and rupas arising and falling away. As I just mentioned, in order for 'out there' rupas to be experienced, there has to be a meeting of various dhammas, various namas and rupas, in particular the rupa (outer ayatana), sense-base, such as eye-base (inner ayatana), mental factors, such as phassa (outer ayatana) and vi~n~naa.na (inner ayatana), ... > S:"We think we grieve for those who pass away, but actually just grieve for the loss of our own pleasant feeling?" > > Yes, I agree. > > Thanks for comments. ... S: Thank you too. I'd be interested to hear your further comments and hope it doesn't take me 4 months to reply to them! Metta Sarah ========= #109160 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:42 pm Subject: Re: How to induce right speach? sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & Pt, #107928 (This relates to a very brief discussion we had yesterday about metta for oneself. Perhaps one of you would like to quote Vism passages or look further in UP for quotes - I'm trying to just give quick answers now.) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > > >If you want to have metta to others, first you have metta to yourself. > > ... > > S: Here, I think you're very much mistaken. I think this idea causes tremendous grief. What is taken as "metta for oneself" is definitely lobha! Metta always has others' interests, not one's own interests as object. We learn to treat others as we like to be treated. > > .... > > L: For example: we can joke of people who are going throught the street and counting stones or something like that, but when we experienced this also in our lifes and know oh just usuall conditioned dhmma this behaviour is, this can conditioned really true metta for all beings. ... S: Yes, but in your example you are not having metta to yourself. You are just being a more understanding person to others by appreciating that all dhammas are conditioned and that we can all behave strangely or do foolish things. .... > > Then when we understand in our lifes that all is conditioned and out of control, then there can be so much metta. even for the hell beings, demons. .... S: Yes, exactly.... .... > > > >I get metta when I see people quarreling or do bad things. Then I know I did it before, and no judgment just forgetting all what happend, no judgment. > > ... > > S: I think that when we have metta for others, we don't have any thought or concern about ourselves at all. > > ... > > L: Yes, but there is a lot of thinking in between. Even there is metta, there can be thinking with dosa about I, me. And again this thinking can be a condition for metta in the next moment. .... S: Yes, but I'd say, more metta in spite of all the attachment to I, me and dosa in between. And still, not metta to me! .... > L: Without right understanding this is really hard to tell, whether the moment of giving or helping others now is kusala. > > I think the moment of dosa is the same dangerous like the moment of lobha, really no difference, but dosa seems to hurt more. ... S: I agree with all your good qualities. As you say, dosa hurts more and this is why it's the far enemy of metta. I always enjoy your reflections, Lukas. Metta Sarah ======== #109161 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: DO in Aruppa planes sarahprocter... Dear Vince, # 107425 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > Dear Sarah > > you wrote: > > > S: Both metta and karuna can arise with or without panna. However, > > the panna that arises at the moments of metta and karuna doesn't > > experience anatta, because the object is the concept of sentient > > beings, not a reality. > > but from what I read in definitions, it seems karuna is closer to > virtue. So I wonder if both are quite different in the development. > In example, think in somebody who push another person just before he > is being rolled by a car. > Such instant movement implies losing the own live, so it is purely > spontaneous without being mediatized by the intellect. > It only can happens because in that same moment there is an instant > re-knowledge of the insubstantiality of individuals. It cannot be > karuna but panna. ... S: In any example, such as the one you give, there are countless processes of cittas following each other in rapid succession. Thus, there are cittas arising with karuna and/or metta, cittas with dosa, cittas with panna that reflect on anatta and in between processes of seeing, hearing, touching and so on. According to the Dhamma, metta and karuna always have beings as object, so there cannot be moments of satipatthana, panna which understands dhammas as dhammas at such moments. There can also be panna which appreciates the kusala quality of metta to other beings. As we know, metta is one of the objects of samatha and can develop in daily life at any time we're associating with others. As we discussed with Pt yesterday, for any development of samatha, we have to clearly understand moments of kusala vs akusala when they arise, what metta is and also know what the characteristic of samatha is. ... > > After these cittas with metta and karuna have fallen away, there > > can be panna arising which understands the metta, karuna or any > > other dhamma appearing as anatta, however. > >V: but if we look the previous case, there is not possibility of a later > reflection. So I doubt it. Normally we think in that way but I think > we mix both things. ... S: By a "later reflection", I'm talking about many, many cittas arising and falling away in a split-second. The Buddha said there is nothing as fast as the mind. Such wise reflection or awareness is quite different from a conventional kind of thinking about situations as you describe above. .... > > From what I read, karuna is what arises through an appropriation of > the object while metta lacks of that apopropiation. Many definition of > metta give us words as "benevolent love", "undifferentiated love", > etc... In fact, I seems these definitions try to catch the experience > of universal friendliness associated with living the truth. So I > wonder if metta inhabit anatta while there is becoming but karuna > is a good kammic action and effort. .... S: I think that when beings are the object of our thinking, cittas have to arise with lobha, dosa, moha or metta. In other words, if the citta with other beings as object is kusala, then alobha arises, and in the case of beings as object, this is metta. Karuna can only arise when there is a compassion for suffering in other beings. .... > > As some of us have been stressing, the object of satipatthana has > > to be a paramattha dhamma (a reality), not a concept. > >V: but also we can take nibbana as the object, Don't you agree? ... S: Nibbana is a paramattha dhamma, but only experienced by the lokuttara cittas. .... > > Pls let me know if this is not clear. It's a little complicated! > > yes, it is. Thanks for your thoughts, :) ... S: Thanks for yours too! I don't remember seeing your pic in the album, any chance of adding one, perhaps with your girlfriend? I don't suppose Sukin took one when you were visiting Bkk before? Metta Sarah ====== #109162 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:44 pm Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, # 107430 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > Thanks for huge support. Let me add something. > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.mend.html > > "Form, O monks, is not-self; if form were self, then form would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since form is not-self, therefore form leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus.' <...> > L: As Connie had quoted in Sangiiti series: > > < > Five perceptions of liberation: perception of impermanence, of non-happiness in imperemanence, of no Self in dukkha, of abandoning, of dispassion. > > This all consist in anatta-lakkhana Sutta. > > First perception of impermanence of all realities that appear. > Then no happiness cause all is anicca. > Then nothing belongs to us cause those fleeting moments are impermanent, not ours, full of misery. > Then abandoning, cause the eye, visible object, eye-consciousness.... are known by direct experience. > Then dispassion. ... S: Excellent! ... > > dukkhe anattasa~n~na is a big relief. There is no Self in misery, just conditioned fleeting moments, nothing can be changed. Then if we understand this, there is paahaana abandoning, no more tryings to achive anything, there is dispassion and final liberation. All is so natural. .... S: Thanks, Lukas. These are the reminders we all need and the answer to all your questions too! Metta Sarah ======= #109163 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:46 pm Subject: Re: Basics of Meditation - A good article, a must read! + sarahprocter... Hi Lukas & All, # 107431 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: Jhana was practiced long long before Buddha. And did not lead anyone to enlightenment, even a slice. ... S: Good one! Yes, not "even a slice"! This shows your appreciation of conditioned dhammas as anatta, imo, of course! Metta Sarah ====== #109164 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding dhamma is like learning a new language sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Khun Weera is sending us > a book by his wife who passed away. She kept a diary durinbg her last > days with lots of Dhamma. It is in Thai, and when it arrives I will > post parts of it on dsg. She always had excellent dhamma questions. > Sarah and Jon will like it. ... S: We look forward to it! We're also glad to read the extracts you're posting from the recently edited recordings too. (For others, you can listen to these recordings on www.dhammastudygroup.org in "audio".) <...> > The same for metta. This is a test, when we miss people we think of > ourselves and there is no mettaa. > I failed a test, a terrible test. I was reading to Lodewijk from > Survey, Ch on concepts. A picture of grapes and real grapes: through > eyes only colour appears. Through touch tangible object. No > difference. Then I thought of seeing Lodewijk and looking at a > photograph of Lodewijk: through eyes only colour, through touch only > tangible object. No difference, but I failed the test! ... S: But at least you know! Most of us have no idea at all that we're failing the tests countless times a day, whenever lobha, dosa and moha arise in fact:-) Let us know if there's anything else you (or anyone else) would like raised with K.Sujin. Metta Sarah ====== #109165 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Another interesting VsM quote sarahprocter... Hi Sukin, Alex & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinderpal wrote: >Sukin: Yes, were Ven. Buddhaghosa here today, he'd at least set the record > straight and we wouldn't need to be involved in such kind of arguments. > > But as suggested many times, if you'd read any of what he has written as > description of the way things are rather than as prescription of things > to do, there would be detachment rather than attachment which > necessarily accompanies ideas about following this or that practice. The > former leads to better understanding conditionality and anatta, whereas > the latter only leads to further attachment to 'self' and belief in the > ability to "make things happen". A heavy burden indeed! ... Sarah: A neat summary! Here's another summary: Atthasaalinii transl. from "Material Qualities" in Expositor, p. 404: "Because it is grasped by foolish folk, as 'this body or this collection of the five aggregates is my self', therefore both the bodily frame and fivefold aggregate is called 'self-state' (attabhaava)." "Ayam me attaa ti baalajanena pariggahitattaa attabhaavo vuccati sariiram pi khandhapa~ncakam pi." Metta Sarah ====== #109166 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:13 am Subject: Re: Tibetan Buddhism sarahprocter... Hi Ryan, I think you're asking great questions and getting many good answers. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ryan Brawn wrote: > Any thoughts on Tibetan Buddhism, and or any thoughts on the differences? Even more so, What do you think about a beginner such as myself wanting to learn more about theravada buddhism, but going to be a part of Tibetan Buddhism? .... S: In the end, the path is all about understanding the present realities and it really doesn't matter what labels we use. We all have to test out what we hear and read and prove what makes sense now. So at this moment, we can prove that the world is just a moment of seeing of visible object or hearing or thinking - an experience through one of the six doorways. By developing more awareness and understanding of the presently appearing realities, we'll be less concerned about which place or situation to be in. .... > > The truth is I don't personally know any Buddhists. I have never been a part of anything that has anything to do with buddhism. All I know is what I have read and learned online. My wife is not buddhist or my kids nor do they want to be. So I think it would be good for me to be around other people with similar beliefs. .... S: You've already found yourself amongst good friends here. Like Nina and others, I'd encourage you to keep asking your questions, considering carefully and developing more understanding about life at the present moment. Many thanks for joining us and for your useful contributions. You have a lovely family and they'll see from your example that an understanding of Buddhism leads to more sympathy, kindness and help at home too! Here's a sutta, the Sigalovada Sutta, which has lots of good advice for lay people: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.ksw0.html Metta Sarah ======= #109167 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:15 am Subject: Re: q. sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear friends > Is it good to investigate present realities? ... S: to *understand* present realities .... > Is thinking sufficient? ... S: No. Thinking is just thinking - another reality to be understood when it appears. Metta Sarah ====== #109168 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:21 am Subject: Re: Jhana moment is just mentallity sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, #109040 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > > Jhana is very high kusala. but isn't jhana moment just mentallity? .... S: I appreciated all your reflections in this post and the following one. We can see how an understanding of namas and rupas leads to detachment from all that is conditioned. What's the point of pursuing those states which are anicca, dukkha and anatta? On your other Vism quotes about seclusion, we have to read carefully. Before the Buddha's time, people associated seclusion with retiring to quiet forests and bodily seclusion. He pointed out that seclusion in the ultimate sense refers to living alone now with whatever dhamma is conditioned, living alone with understanding and awareness. Are you in seclusion now? Metta Sarah ======= #109169 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:25 am Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro sarahprocter... Hi Fabian & Ken H, Great discussions....keep it up! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > FABIAN: > With due respect, please search again what is the meaning of wise friends (kalyana mitta). > --------------------------------- > > Ultimately, of course, there are no people, and so there are no people who are kalyana mitta. The only ultimately real kalyana mitta are conditioned namas. In particular, they are panna (right understanding), sati (mindfulness) and other kusala cetasikas. > > And ultimately there is no one who associates with the kalyana mitta. There is just the citta and the other cetasikas that arise with them. .... S: Good qu and great answer! Please ask him any more challenging ones, Fabian! Thank you both for all the discussion. Metta Sarah p.s I forget, Fabian, do you live in Jakarta? I'm impressed at the keen interest in the Dhamma in Indonesia. ======= #109170 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:37 am Subject: Re: Sangiitisutta Sixes, 323-324. sarahprocter... Dear Connie, how's it going? Long time, no chat.... How's the family and the grand-kids? (Ryan, Connie lives near Seattle and can probably give advice on which groups to avoid!) So glad the series is continuing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Having summed up the Jaataka, the Teacher said, "A monk should guard all the doors of the senses, for only by guarding the doors of the senses can he obtain release from all suffering." ... S: This line caught my eye - in other words, only by understanding objects through all doorways can there be release from samsara. Impossible just by understanding rupas or feelings, for example. From the beginning, any object appearing can be the object of awareness. ... So saying, he pronounced the following Stanzas, > 360. Restraint of the eye is good, restraint of the ear is good, > Restraint of the nose is good, restraint of the tongue is good. > 361. Restraint of the body is good, restraint of speech is good, > Restraint of the mind is good, restraint in all things is good. > The monk who practices restraint in all things, obtains release from all suffering. > > c: see Telapatta Jaataka > http://sacred-texts.com/bud/j1/j1099.htm ... S: and Lukas, by restraint, he's not referring to thinking, but to direct understanding. At such moments of understanding, all the right efforts arise. Not a matter of 'doing' anything... Metta Sarah ===== #109171 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Present moment sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > But it doesn't fit with all that KS has said: > "The beginner is not keen enough to be aware of all objects which appear. The beginner should begin with one doorway at a time until he is skilful enough to be able to be aware of any Object. This is the way. One should not try another way and neglect awareness of the object which appears. The beginner begins to develop right awareness of the object which appears, that is the duty of the beginner." > - KS end of Ch4 Perfections. > > Seems like a method to me. .... S: As you always say, it's a matter of expression and understanding. See "shoulds and should-ing" in U.P. This was one of Herman's favourite topics too. It just means that the beginner is aware of a reality appearing through one doorway at a time and gradually the awareness has develops. As the passage stresses, the point is that awareness has to be aware of what appears, not by trying to select another object. I can ask KS for her response too, if you like! I've been appreciating your study of Survey, Abhid and good questions like here. Metta Sarah ====== #109172 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana adepts outside of the Buddha sasana do not have belief in control ? sarahprocter... Hi Sukin (& Ken O), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinderpal wrote: Imvho, you're in great form and your discussions with Ken O are always good ones. A little more listening before there can be any talk of graduation, Ken:-) Btw, Ken, did you listen to the latest recordings we uploaded just before coming to Aus? You may have been away at the time. Any quotes or useful points for discussion? Like these two paras are useful for us all to read again: >Sukin: In reality, prompted and unprompted is about the difference between weak > and strong, and so we should take care not to be taken in by any > conventional idea that we may have in this regard. .... S: Butting in - I was going to make just the same point ... >If we do, we may find > ourselves invariably thinking that sometimes we need to talk ourselves > to 'doing' things in order that panna or other kusala may be developed. > Or that just because we think to do good, practice etc. we are on the > right track. We need to remember that kusala of any kind including > panna, arises because these arose in the past, and that if they do arise > now, this accumulates and increases the chance of them arising in the > future. This is regardless of whether the citta is prompted or not. > True, different people have different accumulations, such that for some, > thinking about developing kusala may actually condition kusala. However > this is by NDS condition and because kusala has arisen in the past. > Likewise for those who do not require to think in such a way, if kusala > arises for them, this is by NDS condition and because of the accumulated > kusala. Indeed this is the same with *all* nama dhammas including the > akusala ones. So I think it is better to highlight this than to try and > justify any arisen citta, whether these are prompted or not, because > otherwise it may sound like we cling to a certain way of thinking about > and doing things. And when this happens, it is then that objections with > regard to the idea of "control" arises. ;-) .... S: For others, NDS refers to "natural decisive support condition". This is the most common condition, responsible for the way in which all our tendencies and inclinations arise. Why is there attachment or aversion at this moment? NDS. Feel free to ask Sukin any more about it! Metta Sarah ======== #109173 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] photo album nilovg Dear Ryan and Sarah, Yes, today it worked, but not every time. Lovely photos, ryan. You have a nice family NIna. Op 12-aug-2010, om 23:39 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > If you just click on "new photos" it just brings up the photos put > there in the last 7 days - #109174 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding dhamma is like learning a new language nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 13-aug-2010, om 8:52 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Khun Weera is sending us > > a book by his wife who passed away. > ... > S: We look forward to it! ------- N: When my Abh series is finished, this is hard work for me. ------ Nina. #109175 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question on Survey Chapter 4 nilovg Dear Andrew, I should continue with your questions. Op 12-aug-2010, om 18:24 heeft lawstu_uk het volgende geschreven: > So there are another seventeen cittas between seeing and hearing. ------ N: As to the chart I sent yesterday, after the sense-door process, there are bhavangacittas (cittas that do not experience objects impinging on the six doorways, cittas that keep the continuity in life, life-continuum), and then cittas of a mind-door process experience that sense object, say, visible object, that had just fallen away. Cittas are succeeding one another so rapidly, and therefore we can still speak of present object. There may be more mind-door processes of cittas and then a new sense-door process may start, having sound as object. Thus you can see that there are countless cittas between seeing and hearing. Cittas arising in a process do so in a fixed order and this helps us to see that they are anattaa, beyond control. --------- > A: > Also, because rupas conditions the arises of cittas. And citta is > to experience rupa. So what other rupas are there for the arising > of the 17 cittas (to experience) between seeing and hearing? -------- N: Conditions are manifold. In the chart of a process I sent you, a sense object, suppose visible object, is the object of several cittas arising in a process. It conditions them by way of object-condition. It falls away after seventeen moments. It is not the only condition. There is eyesense that is physical base and doorway. It is physical base for seeing-consciousness, but the other cittas in that process have another physical base, called the heartbase. However, eyesense is doorway for all the cittas of that process. Some cittas of that process are vipaakacittas proced by kamma, some are kiriyacittas, neither cause nor result. Some are kusala cittas or akusala cittas, cittas which are cause. So you can see that there are several conditions for the cittas that arise. -------- > > A: And if in this case, it doesn't sound 'logical' -- because > between each rupa conditioning each of the 17 cittas (between > seeing and hearing) there must be another 17 cittas then. So in > between seeing and hearing, there are unlimited rupas and cittas? ------- N: The above may clarify. In the human plane each citta needs a physical base, a ruupa that conditions it. Also bhavangacitta has a physical base, and it is vipaakacitta conditioned by kamma. Let me know what is not clear yet, Nina. #109176 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:31 am Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro chandrafabian Dear Ken, KEN H: Hi Fabian, We have reached an impasse. I keep saying understanding comes first; you keep saying concentration comes first. Until we have settled this issue there is no point in going on. However, I might be able to clear up some misunderstandings: FABIAN: Dear Ken, I keep saying WITHOUT MEDITATION DEEP PENETRATIVE UNDERSTANDING would not develop. You can not Enlighten by simply reading books. --------------------------------- KEN H: According to the Pali Tipitaka the practice of samadhi is a separate matter, very different from vipassana. I meant to say that there were two types of mental-development (practices), samatha and vipassana. Both types involve the universal cetasika samadhi, but they are different in extremely important ways. One leads to [mundane] jhana, which is the suppression of hindrances, the other leads to [supramundane] jhana, which is vipassana - the eradication of defilements. In the Buddha's day, many monks practised both types. And so many suttas can be confusing if we don't know precisely to whom they were addressed. If we are not careful, we can get the impression that *everyone* has to attain both mundane jhana and vipassana. FABIAN: do you mean practicing Vipassana doesn't need Samadhi..? -------------------------- KEN H: > > There is no such thing in the Tipitaka as 'practising concentration.' Concentration arises in every moment of consciousness, and it takes its nature from the citta. If the citta is wholesome, the concentration is wholesome. If the citta is strong, the concentration is strong . . . and so on. Just what I said. Samadhi is concentration. There is kusala concentration and there is akusala concentration. There is strong concentration and there is weak concentration. The suttas often use the word 'samadhi' to refer only to strong kusala concentration. Sometimes they use it to refer only to [strong kusala] vipassana concentration. So we have to be aware of the context. FABIAN: It is slandering if you say, no practicing concentration in Tipitaka. Read This: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.099.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.119.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.nysa.html Do you need more links to learn...? ------------------------------ FABIAN: > I give you a hint... read the first stanza of Dhammapada. KEN H: Sorry, the hint wasn't strong enough. What, in particular, did you want me to learn from that stanza? FABIAN: Have you read? ------------------------------------------------- KH: > > Mere recitation of words (without understanding them) could be likened to seeing an apricot without tasting it. But no one is recommending that. I don't know why you are telling me that - after I tried so hard to tell you that *no one* (not even Mahayana) recommended mere recitation. FABIAN: Yes that's true and understanding from reading books and even worse mere recitation would be likened seeing apricot without tasting it. --------------------------------------- F: > You should read more Tipitaka, let's take example of BHIKKHU CULAPANTHAKA, he is unable to remember Dhamma, he can't even memorize a four line stanza for three months, but after The Buddha give him napkins to rub over and over his understanding developed. It is clearly he doesn't have Dhamma understanding before practice. KEN H: Actually Culapanthaka had developed a great deal of understanding in previous lifetimes. However, he had a learning difficulty in this lifetime, and so the Buddha had to employ an additional teaching method - adapted specifically for him. The same principle applies as with Culapanthaka. All pacceka-buddhas have learnt the Dhamma from previous Buddhas in many previous lifetimes. I can only repeat what I have already tried to tell you: thoughts are not conditioned dhammas. They do not arise and pass away in the way that dhammas do. They cannot be taken as objects of insight. I realise this is contrary to what you have been taught, and I am not trying to change your mind. I only want you to know that the Tipitaka contains a teaching that is different from what is commonly taught by modern-day meditation instructors. FABIAN: The fact is "he has no understanding in that life prior practicing meditation". -------------------------------- FABIAN: > I think you should read these two links, before move on about what is samadhi, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/piyadassi/wheel001.html KEN H: Thanks, but sutta quotes by themselves prove nothing. They need to be understood and considered in the right way. That's why we have Dhamma discussions. DSG has discussed both of those suttas many times over recent years, and so I understand them in the way I have been trying to describe to you. If you feel inclined to give your interpretation of them, please do. FABIAN: Sorry Ken, without being disrespect, it seems you did not learn the topic yet. This is the weakness of Mailing list, it is not easy to retrieve past post. ----------------------------------- KEN H: This is explained in (for example) the Mahacattarika Sutta: "As to this, right understanding comes first. And how does right understanding come first? . Sorry about the spelling, apparently it is the Maha-cattarisaka Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html FABIAN: Sorry Ken the Sutta did not support your argument. It is saying RIGHT VIEW comes first not right understanding. People have right view not necessarily have right understanding. ------------------------------------------------ KEN H: You really must learn some Abhidhamma. Right view is one of the factors of both satipatthana and the Ariyan Eightfold Path. It is the leader (and the foremost) of those factors. Right View is basically the entire teaching of the Buddha. Ken H FABIAN: Do you think you are the only person in the world learning Abhidhamma Ken? I learn Abhidhamma too, but with understanding that all Abhidhamma theory is written by a person who has practicing Samadhi (Buddha you may say). Not the other way around. Even ascetic Siddhattha had wrong view before practicing Samadhi. Mettacittena, fabian #109177 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:41 am Subject: Re: To Sarah. Questions to Ajahn Sujin szmicio Dear Sarah, > Many thanks for the Qus. which I'll try to raise as I know you'd particularly like her brief responses, even if they are "I, I, I..." responses:-)) > > Seems like a long time since we've shared Dhamma together. L: sadhu. > How would you respond to the questions if someone else were to ask you? What have you been reading recently? L: I can answer, but there is so many doubts. I feel like I need support. I know Dhamma well on intelectuall level. Could you please extend my question number 14. to Acharn: '14. How do you understand 3 Gems. The gem of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha? I understand only refuge in Dhamma, but I couldnt grasp the meaning of refuge in Buddha and Sangha? You and Nina or maybe someone else can try to answer I will be for sure delighted to hear this Dhamma. > How's life in Poland? I am not in Poland now, I am in Sweden. I try to get some renunciation, but even in comfortable conditions there can be so many agitation. It doesnt work on me much. I can easily get more nekkhama vitakka during my daily life then in a monastery or something. Now I am chasing something, no rest no chance to forget all the world. Best wishes Lukas #109178 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Little selves? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Alex & Paul) - In a message dated 8/12/2010 11:12:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Alex & Paul, #107050 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > What I think is really inappropriate is to use "absolute realities". The name is just too loaded with ontological and philosophical implications. The philosophizing is in calling anything to be an "absolute reality". > > I am not sure why some people don't want to call them something less solid & Atman-like, like "fundamental experiential phenomena" or "basic units of experience". .... S: How about "dhammas" or "dhammaa" or "realities"? Absolute realities is just a translation of "paramattha dhammas", used to distinguish such dhammas from conventional realities. ------------------------------------------------ Yes, 'paramattha' is properly rendered by 'ultimate' or 'fundamental' or 'basic'. It is 'dhammas' that is more debatable, and I think the less-loaded translation would be 'phenomena'. Phenomena are actually experienced and not just imagined, but that word doesn't suggest the core of fixed and unchanging identity that 'realities' does. --------------------------------------------- Should a distinction not be made between visible object and say, cars or trees in your experience? --------------------------------------------- I do think a distinction should be made, the distinction being based on degree of mental construction involved, with you believing it to be zero. Sights and sounds and tastes and smells etc are relatively elementary objects of experience with little or no mental construction involved - unlike such huge mental constructs as cars & trees. (We differ on extent of mental construction involved. For me, only nibbana is asankhata.) I would not refer to cars and trees etc as "phenomena" but more usually as "things," and I view them as imagined worldly "objects," concepts that are useful, but merely projected, mental constructs. ------------------------------------------- ... > And ultimately it is mind that knows, distinguishes and knows characteristics. So in a sense the characteristics require mind to know them and it is impossible to know anything outside of one's mind. ... S: Yes, and by knowing that it is only visible object that is seen or hardness that is felt, for example, the idea that anything else exists other than these paramattha dhammas or "absolute realities", begins to disappear. Panna brings us closer and closer to the Truths about such dhammas which the Buddha taught. .... > > It seems that to posit ontology beyond what is known (a mental cognition) is philosophizing (which may be wrong or right, but philosophizing nonetheless). ... S: And therefore not the Path. Metta Sarah ============================ With metta, Howard The Aggregates are Void /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #109179 From: Kevin F Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana moment is just mentallity farrellkevin80 Dear Sarah, Sarah: Are you in seclusion now? me: quite. Kevin ___________ #109180 From: A T Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:17 am Subject: Dhammas= intentional units of experience truth_aerator Hello Sarah, Howard, Nina, All, Word dhamma is fairly complex. Some interesting pali finds: "'All dhammas, friend, are rooted in the will. chandamu-laka-, a-vuso, sabbe dhamma-. ALL dhammas are produced from ATTENTION. manasika-rasambhava- sabbe dhamma-. All dhammas are originated in contact. phassasamudaya- sabbe dhamma-. AN 10.58. PTS: A v 106 Manopubban.gama- dhamma-, manoset.t.ha- manomaya-; Mind precedes all dhammas. Mind is foremost; they are all mind-made. Dhp 1 "'All phenomena have Extinction as their final end.' nibba-napariyosa-na- sabbe dhamma- AN 10.58. PTS: A v 106 With rise of attention the Dhammas rise, with the cessation of attention dhammas fall. Manasika-rasamudaya- dhamma-nam. samudayo; manasika-ranirodha- dhamma-nam. atthan.gamo PTS S V.184 From the above statements it is clear that that dhamma are units of intentional experience dependent among other factors on chanda, manasika-ra, phasso and so on. Can we say that objective units outside of experience are dependent on chanda, manasika-ra, phasso and so on? They are rooted in the will or desire (chandamu-laka-), ALL dhammas are produced from ATTENTION (manasika-rasambhava- sabbe dhamma-), all dhammas are originated in contact phassasamudaya- sabbe dhamma-… If dhammas mean ultimate realities and include objective matter, then... Are we to believe that all dhammas (including ru-pa) are mind made? Dhp1? It is much more fitting to interpret dhammas as phenomenological units of experience rather than abstract mind-independent building blocks of the world. This doesn't invalidate the objective world, it just invalidates the idea that dhammas refer to non-mental, mind-independent units. Pariyosa-na-=the end; conclusion; perfection. Manasika-ra=attention, ideation, consideration. Sambhava- = origin; birth; production; Samudaya-=rise; origin; produce. set.t.ha-= foremost; excellent. manomaya-= mind-made With metta, Alex #109181 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:28 am Subject: seclusion truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Sukinder, all, >We can see how an understanding of namas and rupas leads to >detachment from all that is conditioned. What's the point of >pursuing those states which are anicca, dukkha and anatta? Right, and so many people (who could) became monks&nuns and have relinquished a lot of unnecessary possessions. >S:Before the Buddha's time, people associated seclusion with >retiring to quiet forests and bodily seclusion. Right, this is half the picture. The Buddha has also taught about seclusion of the mind and seclusion from acquisitions. So those who could mentally abandon the physical acquisitions, moved to monasteries (meditation retreats or becoming bhikkhus or bhikkhunis) If one is trully secluded from desire for material comfort, household, etc,, and is able to go into physical seclusion, why not meditate with right understanding in monasteries, forests, caves, etc? Why not abandon that which one is mentally secluded from (this applies to all who have good enough health, free from responsibilities, and have required means, etc)? Why one can't attain jhana, even at home, if one is really mentally secluded from material things? With metta, Alex #109182 From: "lawstu_uk" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question on Survey Chapter 4 lawstu_uk Dear Nina and Ken, Many thanks for the replies. I now understand this part. With metta, Andrew #109183 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammas= intentional units of experience nilovg Dear Alex, You are a good Pali student, and the Unicode comes over so neatly, I admire you. Dhamma has many meanings, see our archive. We can say: everything is dhamma, is reality. Not only ruupa, also naama. Nina. Op 13-aug-2010, om 19:17 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > It is much more fitting to interpret dhammas as phenomenological > units of experience rather than abstract mind-independent building > blocks of the world. This doesn't invalidate the objective world, > it just invalidates the idea that dhammas refer to non-mental, mind- > independent units. > > Pariyosa-na-=the end; conclusion; perfection. > Manasika-ra=attention, ideation, consideration. > Sambhava- = origin; birth; production; > Samudaya-=rise; origin; produce. > set.t.ha-= foremost; excellent. > manomaya-= mind-made #109184 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Present moment truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Sukinder, all, > S: As you always say, it's a matter of expression and understanding. Well we do need to express things precisely. We also need not to conflate "description" and "things to do". Of course a complex set of phenomena can be viewed from both angles, which are valid. Lets not forget that there are 2 angles. If you are dropped into a lake will you swim to safety? Of course there are factors that may help or hinder. Sure. But one of many conditions for kusala is to actually do it. Of course previous development is important factor that is going to make it harder or easier for kusala to impersonally arise. Sure. But one has to start somewhere. As you are also well aware off, cetana is present in all kinds of cittas. Chanda, adhitthana, adhimokkho, viriya, etc are variable cittas. Do you think that I believe in a Self that is going to control reality? No. I study presently arisen vinnana & namarupa when I sit down and close the eyes (or during daily activities). Intention happens with every citta. So one may as well intend for more kusala and less akusala - just like one would intend to swim to the safety. Development has to start somewhere and if it is always pushed "later! When the conditions are right!", then it will never come. Later will always be "later"! ""One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort..." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html Also, IMHO, it is improper to expect one to be perfect before starting intentional development, even if this development is intentional choice and action of reading ADL,Survey,etc rather than watching TV. It is true that this is fully conditioned, and IMHO, one of the conditions is putting too much weight to the belief that "there is no use putting in effort, my kilesas want to see TV, so maybe I should watch TV rather than indulge in wrong view of trying to control realities". >It just means that the beginner is aware of a reality appearing >through one doorway at a time and gradually the awareness has >develops. As the passage stresses, the point is that awareness has >to be aware of what appears, not by trying to select another object. Right. And this is what some teachers teach. Even KS or Nina (in perfections) does talk about things to understand, things to do. Paramis are to be developed, and akusala (whether it is wrong views or actions) are to be abandoned. If you have "The Samannaphala sutta and its commentaries" please see page 77 on "attakara" and similar explanations for some other wrong views as well. According to the Commentaries it is wrong view of Makkhali Gosala that "whatever will be will be; whatever will not be will not be". Pg 79. It is wrong view with fixed results to believe that there isn't determination by [emperical, conventional] self and others. "Self determination is the kamma beings do ON THEIR OWN, by reason of which they attain the state of a god, the state of Mara, the state of Brahma, the enlightment of a disciple,...". It is Makkhali Gosala's teaching that rejects "purisakara" and teaches that all beings are helpless, powerless, and devoid of energy. Buddha on other hand has said: "Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html#turban2 Of course all of this goes without saying that understanding is important. IMHO understanding of drawbacks of lack of effort and understanding the benefits of effort is an important condition that manifests as effort. IMHO belief has to be inseparable with action. To say but not to act, isn't good. With metta, Alex #109185 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammas= intentional units of experience sarahprocter... Dear Alex, I'll look forward to reading your post more carefully later. Meanwhile see the following in UP in the files: "Dhamma1 –meanings" Feel more than free to quote anything you find interesting for further discussion as well. Great to see your interest in this topic and your study of the Pali terms. Metta Sarah --- On Sat, 14/8/10, A T wrote: >Word dhamma is fairly complex. Some interesting pali finds: #109186 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammas= intentional units of experience upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Sarah & Nina) - In a message dated 8/13/2010 1:17:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Sarah, Howard, Nina, All, Word dhamma is fairly complex. Some interesting pali finds: "'All dhammas, friend, are rooted in the will. chandamu-laka-, a-vuso, sabbe dhamma-. ALL dhammas are produced from ATTENTION. manasika-rasambhava- sabbe dhamma-. All dhammas are originated in contact. phassasamudaya- sabbe dhamma-. AN 10.58. PTS: A v 106 Manopubban.gama- dhamma-, manoset.t.ha- manomaya-; Mind precedes all dhammas. Mind is foremost; they are all mind-made. Dhp 1 "'All phenomena have Extinction as their final end.' nibba-napariyosa-na- sabbe dhamma- AN 10.58. PTS: A v 106 With rise of attention the Dhammas rise, with the cessation of attention dhammas fall. Manasika-rasamudaya- dhamma-nam. samudayo; manasika-ranirodha- dhamma-nam. atthan.gamo PTS S V.184 From the above statements it is clear that that dhamma are units of intentional experience dependent among other factors on chanda, manasika-ra, phasso and so on. Can we say that objective units outside of experience are dependent on chanda, manasika-ra, phasso and so on? They are rooted in the will or desire (chandamu-laka-), ALL dhammas are produced from ATTENTION (manasika-rasambhava- sabbe dhamma-), all dhammas are originated in contact phassasamudaya- sabbe dhamma-… If dhammas mean ultimate realities and include objective matter, then... Are we to believe that all dhammas (including ru-pa) are mind made? Dhp1? It is much more fitting to interpret dhammas as phenomenological units of experience rather than abstract mind-independent building blocks of the world. This doesn't invalidate the objective world, it just invalidates the idea that dhammas refer to non-mental, mind-independent units. Pariyosa-na-=the end; conclusion; perfection. Manasika-ra=attention, ideation, consideration. Sambhava- = origin; birth; production; Samudaya-=rise; origin; produce. set.t.ha-= foremost; excellent. manomaya-= mind-made With metta, Alex ============================== The material you quote is really interesting, Alex, and I definitely like your analysis! (An alternative perspective, to play the Devil's advocate, is based on the fact that one occasional usage of 'dhamma', not a frequent one though, carries the meaning of "concept.") With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #109187 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:58 pm Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro kenhowardau Hi Fabian, --------- <. . .> FABIAN: > do you mean practicing Vipassana doesn't need Samadhi..? --------- Yes and no - depending on how you understand samadhi. If samadhi is taken to mean some kind of mind-preparation (relaxing, focusing, etc ) then, yes, I mean vipassana doesn't need that. But if samadhi is taken to mean the cetasika by that name, then I agree it is necessary because it arises (automatically) in every moment of consciousness - including vipassana. When it arises in vipassana it is called samma-samadhi. ---------------------------- FABIAN: It is slandering if you say, no practicing concentration in Tipitaka. Read This: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.099.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.119.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.nysa.html Do you need more links to learn...? ------------------------------ As I said before, quotes by themselves won't prove anything if we interpret them differently. By the way, I don't think we should worry too much about "slander." We should just understand the Dhamma as best we can. However, you might be interested to know that the suttas mention two ways of slandering the Buddha. (1) A person who says that a sutta is self-explanatory, and requires no further explanation, slanders the Buddha if, in fact, that sutta is not self-explanatory and does require further explanation. (2) A person who says that a sutta requires further explanation slanders the Buddha if, in fact, it does not require further explanation. The first of those sutta you have linked me to begins with: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.'" (end quote) May I ask what you think is meant by "concentration" in that quote? Could it include concentration in a mind that is greedy, hateful or ignorant? Many people will assume that it doesn't really matter - so long as there is concentration. If you tell them they are right in assuming that, you are slandering the Buddha, aren't you? Some other people, who are more astute, will assume that the concentration needs to be in a mind that is wholesome, but not necessarily in a mind that has right understanding of the Eightfold Path. Similarly, if you tell them they are right in assuming that, you are slandering the Buddha. The truth is that the sutta cannot be understood properly unless the Dhamma - as a whole - is understood properly. That sutta, when interpreted properly, is about understanding presently arisen conditioned realities. When the understanding is right, the concentration is right. ---------------------------------- <. . .> > > Maha-cattarisaka Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html FABIAN: > Sorry Ken the Sutta did not support your argument. It is saying RIGHT VIEW comes first not right understanding. People have right view not necessarily have right understanding. ------------------------------------ I have never heard that before. Please let me assure you, 'right view' 'right understanding' 'panna' and 'samma-ditthi' and are all the same thing. They are just different names for the same conditioned dhamma. ---------------------------------- <. . .> FABIAN: Do you think you are the only person in the world learning Abhidhamma Ken? I learn Abhidhamma too, but with understanding that all Abhidhamma theory is written by a person who has practicing Samadhi (Buddha you may say). Not the other way around. Even ascetic Siddhattha had wrong view before practicing Samadhi. ---------------------------------- I agree, we can read the same books and have completely different interpretations of them. As a result, modern-day Buddhism is in a deplorable state, with countless different versions contradicting each other. I think you will find, in time, that there is a unique version of the Dhamma that is found only in the Pali Tipitaka and its ancient commentaries. Not many people know about it, and there are only a few places where you can learn it. Thankfully, DSG is one of those places. Ken H #109188 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question - The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena sarahprocter... Dear Andrew (& Nina), I agreed with your kind comments to Nina about her great explanations and tireless help to everyone here. I also think that you've been studying very carefully and asking very good, well-considered questions as you did in this thread. So thank you to you both! --- On Wed, 11/8/10, lawstu_uk wrote: I have more questions because I have been reading the first few chapters of Survey. But because I cannot sit long, I will post my questions whenever I can. ... S: As Nina said, take your time. We appreciate any of your questions anytime. Have you also tried listening to any of the recordings we've edited and uploaded on www.dhammastudygroup.org? I ask, because now you're considering the Abhidhamma so carefully and are familiar with the terms, I think you'd find them helpful. You can listen whilst lying down or walking too! Metta Sarah p.s. My family are asking me when we'll be in England (not having been for several years) and we're thinking of end May/early June time. We'll arrange some discussions at my mother's cottage, so close to where you live in Sussex. Alan Weller always comes to visit us, other friends too and my nephew who also has an interest in Buddhism. We can walk around so as not to sit too long! ====== #109189 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:53 pm Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro chandrafabian Dear Ken, KEN H: Hi Fabian, <.....> Yes and no - depending on how you understand samadhi. If samadhi is taken to mean some kind of mind-preparation (relaxing, focusing, etc ) then, yes, I mean vipassana doesn't need that. But if samadhi is taken to mean the cetasika by that name, then I agree it is necessary because it arises (automatically) in every moment of consciousness - including vipassana. When it arises in vipassana it is called samma-samadhi. KEN H: Dear Ken who told you samadhi is not focusing your attention? Do you think Vipassana doesn't need samadhi? ---------------------------- <.....> KEN H: As I said before, quotes by themselves won't prove anything if we interpret them differently. By the way, I don't think we should worry too much about "slander." We should just understand the Dhamma as best we can. However, you might be interested to know that the suttas mention two ways of slandering the Buddha. (1) A person who says that a sutta is self-explanatory, and requires no further explanation, slanders the Buddha if, in fact, that sutta is not self-explanatory and does require further explanation. (2) A person who says that a sutta requires further explanation slanders the Buddha if, in fact, it does not require further explanation. The first of those sutta you have linked me to begins with: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.'" (end quote) May I ask what you think is meant by "concentration" in that quote? Could it include concentration in a mind that is greedy, hateful or ignorant? Many people will assume that it doesn't really matter - so long as there is concentration. If you tell them they are right in assuming that, you are slandering the Buddha, aren't you? Some other people, who are more astute, will assume that the concentration needs to be in a mind that is wholesome, but not necessarily in a mind that has right understanding of the Eightfold Path. Similarly, if you tell them they are right in assuming that, you are slandering the Buddha. The truth is that the sutta cannot be understood properly unless the Dhamma - as a whole - is understood properly. That sutta, when interpreted properly, is about understanding presently arisen conditioned realities. When the understanding is right, the concentration is right. FABIAN: You are slandering because you said, "There is no such thing in the Tipitaka as 'practising concentration.'" while Sutta said so. I'm so sad for you by saying learning Dhamma as a whole, but making that statement. ---------------------------------- <. . .> KEN H: I have never heard that before. Please let me assure you, 'right view' 'right understanding' 'panna' and 'samma-ditthi' and are all the same thing. They are just different names for the same conditioned dhamma. FABIAN: Please let me assure you right view does not necessarily right understanding, for example you believe in rebirth, it is only a view, until you can see by yourself it becomes right understanding. ---------------------------------- <. . .> KEN H: I agree, we can read the same books and have completely different interpretations of them. As a result, modern-day Buddhism is in a deplorable state, with countless different versions contradicting each other. I think you will find, in time, that there is a unique version of the Dhamma that is found only in the Pali Tipitaka and its ancient commentaries. Not many people know about it, and there are only a few places where you can learn it. Thankfully, DSG is one of those places. Ken H FABIAN: Dear Ken, you better answer which comes first, understanding/panna (Abhidhamma) or Samadhi Enlightenment of The Buddha? Instead of asking DSG support for your wrong view. Mettacittena, fabian. #109190 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:13 pm Subject: Re: On the intricacies of a Sotapannas mind-stream and decision making pro chandrafabian Dear Sarah, SARAH: Hi Fabian & Ken H, Great discussions....keep it up! <.....> S: Good qu and great answer! Please ask him any more challenging ones, Fabian! Thank you both for all the discussion. Metta Sarah p.s I forget, Fabian, do you live in Jakarta? I'm impressed at the keen interest in the Dhamma in Indonesia. --------------------------------------------- FABIAN: Dear Sarah, yes I live in Jakarta, Indonesia also have great interest in the Dhamma. Some of my friends I believe following DSG, but rather shy to share their opinion... Please tell us if you visit Jakarta, me and my "Dhamma afficionado" friends, would be happy if you spend few days sharing Dhamma in Jakarta. thank you for following our discussion. Mettacittena, fabian #109191 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:13 pm Subject: Re: Question on Anapanasati Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Jessica, How's it going in the summer heat in Hong Kong? Back to test it out tomorrow! You were asking about apanapasati and I remember Pt and others giving helpful replies. You also asked me where you could check past discussions on the topic, but I never got round to replying and referring you to the section on "anapanasati" in U.P. Let us know if there was anything else you wished to discuss. Perhaps we'll see you soon! Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jessica" wrote: > when I was reading Anapanasati Sutta M iii 84, I was "surprised" to > found that the Buddha was instructing 'a bhikkhu trains thus: ' I shall > breathe in experiencing rapture';.. The statements seem to be > pre-conditioning the mind in experiencing certain specific mental > factors. #109192 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:22 pm Subject: Re: Present moment sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Sukin & all, These comments of Sukin's are really well-worth repeating as Alex (and others) so often make this "anything goes" remark: > >A: In "Perfections" there was a point about not changing the present moment, being said over and over again. > > > > I have a small issue with that. Buddha's teaching in the suttas and even in Comy doesn't seem to suggest that "anything goes, just be mindful when it occurs". > Sukin: The "anything goes"? is your own conclusion. What is written in the "Perfections"? comes from the understanding that the present moment is conditioned and already fallen away, hence thoughts about changing the present moment is reflection of wrong understanding. It does not imply in any way, overlooking akusala. The encouragement is to the development of Right View, which is that the present moment is conditioned, anicca, dukkha and anatta. That one would like to "do"? something in reaction to what has already arisen and fallen away is reflection of a lack of right understanding. .... Sarah: This is just as I undersand, too. The more understanding there is of present realities, the less one thinks in terms of "doing" anything in response to what has already fallen away. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the conventional situational responses about driving into trees and so on:-). Metta Sarah ====== #109193 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] knowing mind chandrafabian Dear Nina, Dear Fabian, <.....> N: It is lokuttara citta accompanied by lokuttara pa~n~naa. When pa~n~naa has been developed through insight stage by stage, it clearly understands the three characteristics of realities. In the course of insight detachment from conditioned realities grows and there is more inclination to the unconditioned reality, nibbaana. Then lokuttara citta can arise which directly experience nibbaana. Lokuttara citta is another plane of citta, different from the sensesphere cittas that experience sense objects, and different from mundane jhaanacittas that experience the meditation subjects of jhaana. The four naama khandhas that are lokuttara experience nibbaana. They are citta and the accompanying cetasikas. As to the stopping of all conditions, this refers to the attainment of arahatship. For him there are no more conditions for rebirth. Nina. ---------------------------------- FABIAN: Dear Nina thank you for your explanation, but I still have confusion, I have read in a book about the experience of Nibbana for the first time by Sotapanna is presided by the breaking up of feeling, In the Sutta mention about the stopping of feeling is the happiness/ultimate peacefulness. But nevertheless a feeling of emptiness (causes peacefullness) arised and can be felt. Is that feeling is a Lokuttara feeling? Thank you. Mettacittena, fabian. #109194 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:39 pm Subject: Re: seclusion sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > If one is trully secluded from desire for material comfort, household, etc,, and is able to go into physical seclusion, why not meditate with right understanding in monasteries, forests, caves, etc? Why not abandon that which one is mentally secluded from (this applies to all who have good enough health, free from responsibilities, and have required means, etc)? .... S: I liked Ken H's earlier response to you: >K: What about now if we're not in a cave? Should the present reality be understood now, or should we wait for a more opportune time?" The Buddha taught everyone to understand the Four Noble Truths. He never said in order to understand the FNT, we must go into physical seclusion. ... > Why one can't attain jhana, even at home, if one is really mentally secluded from material things? .... S: Now, is there "seclusion" from what is seen? Is there "seclusion" from what is heard, smelt, tasted and touched? If we were to leave our computers now and go and sit on the beach, visit a forest or cave, would there be any more seclusion? Really? Sincerely? The test is always at this moment. If we wish to attain jhana now, does that suggest any kind of seclusion either? Back to the 2nd Noble Truth and the origin of suffering, tanha (attachment). Again, as Ken H wrote to you, for understanding the present reality (and the present tanha): "Can there be a more opportune time?" Let's not delay any longer by thinking about moving the deck-chairs first! Metta Sarah ======= #109195 From: "retro77@..." Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:46 pm Subject: Re: Dhammas= intentional units of experience retro77... Well said Alex. Metta, Paul. :) #109196 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:00 pm Subject: Re: q. chandrafabian Dear Sarah, Very good, I agree with you. Many people don't understand, when they try to recall Dhamma while practicing meditation actually they are not in present moment. Even though sometimes it is ok to recall Dhamma we have learned before, thinking about Dhamma too much while practicing meditation is hampering their progress to get singleness of mind. To be in present moment all the time is to be aware and attentive towards all of our mind and body activity. Thinking of any kind is still thinking, and thinking is not meditating Mettacittena, fabian Hi Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear friends > Is it good to investigate present realities? ... S: to *understand* present realities .... > Is thinking sufficient? ... S: No. Thinking is just thinking - another reality to be understood when it appears. Metta Sarah ====== #109197 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammas= intentional units of experience nilovg Hi Howard, Op 14-aug-2010, om 0:10 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > An alternative perspective, to play the Devil's > advocate, is based on the fact that one occasional usage of > 'dhamma', not a > frequent one though, carries the meaning of "concept.") ------- N: Right you are: As we have seen, also concept, pa??atti, can be seen as dhamma. As the Saddaniti explains: --------- Nina. #109198 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Waves or Wires? Pt's 2nd visit nilovg Dear Sarah and pt, I got a lovely impression of your get together and pt.'s great helpfulness. I have an opportunity now to anumodana his kusala. Nina. Op 13-aug-2010, om 1:45 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Now - seeing, visible object, thinking - let's not be led astray > looking for any other objects which don't appear at this moment, as > we speak. Is there breath appearing now? If not, why be concerned > about it? #109199 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Waves or Wires? Pt's 2nd visit nilovg Dear Ken H, but for Lodewijk and me you are a youngster :-)) When we met you we had not given you turning towards sixty. Nina. Op 13-aug-2010, om 3:01 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > You might have to prepare pt for my age, though. I turned 60 this > week, and I don't want any comments! :-)