#113000 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind vs matter. Materialsm vs Idealism. ptaus1 Hi KenH, Re 112944 > KenH: I think this might tie in with some other discussions DSG is having. In the ultimate sense a lie is a paramattha dhamma, not a concept. But ordinary (non-ariyan) people like us can't identify specific paramattha dhammas. We can't even know with certainty when our dhammas are kusala and when they are akusala. > > Therefore, we just do the best we can. If (for example) we think a white lie will protect someone's feelings we go ahead and tell it. We don't follow a ritual form of truth-telling. We judge every situation on its merits and take whichever course of action seems the best. pt: I think I see what you mean. Though, for those of us who "can't even know with certainty when our dhammas are kusala and when they are akusala", as you say, wouldn't the adherence to the 5 precepts initially then be a sort of "a ritual form of truth-telling"? At least until the time when wisdom matures enough to the level that understands why telling lies is actually not a beneficial thing to do? Best wishes pt #113001 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:00 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi Sarah, I was wondering about this bit: > S: ...All kinds of dhammas have to be experienced and known, including all the sense experiences and objects. In the arupa brahma realm, there are no rupas and therefore there is no chance to become a sotapanna there. In fact, I'm curious about both sentences - firstly, why all dhammas have to be experienced and known? I thought magga citta arises in respect of a certain dhamma that fell away, so that dhamma is kind of enough to know for the process to happen. Maybe you mean before that even happens, all dhammas need to be thoroughly known already for insight to get to that strength when magga citta can happen. But even then I'm not sure I see why *all* dhammas need to be known. And second, aside from the related matter that I don't quite see what's the difference to develpment of panna for an arupa brahma being whether he knows rupas or not, I also think I heard/read somewhere that one of the reasons rebirth in arupa brahma planes should not be aimed for is because there are no senses there, so no chance to actually hear/read dhamma teachings, and that's the reason why enlightenment in those planes is unlikely. Is that right? Since you seem to be giving a different reason. And since I'm here, a few largely unrelated questions: - can beings in the arupa brahma planes actually be aware of beings in lower realms? - can beings in arupa brahma planes have divine-eye and divine-ear, even if they don't have the usual eyes and ears? - for heavenly beings in rupa planes - their bodies are still made of four elements, but in some finer combination I guess? Thanks. Best wishes pt #113002 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ptaus1 Hi Howard (RobE, KenH), > Howard: Buddhaghosa *does* accept momentary essence (actual > separate, self-existence of a dhamma following upon non-existence of it and > followed yet again by non-existence of it). ... > and also, for example, in the Patisambhidhamagga, where > emptiness is emphasized and own-being is roundly criticized. I recall we had a discussion about these two passages before and I think the conclusion was (or at least the way I remember it) a bit different: 1. "sabhava" term in Patisambhidhamagga refers to something that is not conditioned - in that sense it has an "own-being" - so this is rejected in Psm. 2. "sabhava" term in Visuddhimagga refers to something that has the characterstics (individual and general), and that is asserted in Vsm, but that doesn't mean it is not conditioned - so conditioned nature is also asserted in Vsm. So, the meanings are actually different in these two text, hence, I'm not sure how useful it is to counter the two passages against each other, since it's a bit like apples and oranges. To reiterate, when the term "existence" is used in Vsm, that doesn't mean that it somehow defies conditionality. Furthermore, my own conjecture is that such terms as "existence" are not used in their conventional way - e.g. to posit a theory of existence/non-existence in the manner that other sectarians speculated about the world. Rather, it simply attempts to convey an experience of insight as it develops from early stages. In that sense, it seems that at some point one can actually tell the difference between an experience designated as "arising and ceasing of nama" and a different one designated as "arising and ceasing of rupa" (first stage of tender insight), then afterwards that this arising and ceasing is conditioned (second stage), etc. So, my thinking is that designating the "conditioned arising and ceasing of X" by the term "exists" serves the purpose of illustration, not the purpose of positing a theory about things that defy conditionality, etc. Best wishes pt #113003 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mind vs matter. Materialsm vs Idealism. nilovg Dear pt, Op 10-jan-2011, om 10:33 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > N: Yes. Not every kind of kusala is a parami. It is a parami when the > > aim is having less defilements. > > pt:Would that be something like how development of metta is > explained for example - when panna recognises the value of kusala > (like metta) that just fell away - that recognition in itself then > becomes the actual development of kusala? Or is this a bit > different in the sense that it (panna I guess) is supported by the > wish for less defilements? ------ N:Pa~n~naa sees the benefit of having less defilements and this is a motivation to develop metta without expecting any gain for oneself. It causes metta and the other good qualities to be purer. To make this clear I will give a few quotes from Kh sujin's book on the Perfections. ------- < If a person sees the danger of vengefulness, he will be inclined to loving-kindness, mett...> ------ -------- ------ ----- > < For someone who is firmly established in the development of > kusala with the aim to eradicate defilements and who has > accumulated the perfection of determination, it is natural to > practise loving-kindness. We can verify for ourselves whether we > are firmly established in the development of kusala and whether we > develop loving-kindness time and again. When someone is not > inclined to anger and when he often practises mett, it shows that > he sees the benefit of non-anger and of the development of the > perfections leading to the eradication of the defilements.> -------- > pt: And on another unrelated matter that I thought you'd probably > know the answer: has the entire canon been translated in full in > some language (I'm guessing Thai or Burmese)? So, I mean the > translation of the 3 pitakas, and all the commentaries and > subcommentaries ------ N: As to the Thai, they have the suttas and after each sutta is the translation of the commentary. Not the subcommentary. I do not know about the VInaya and co. and the books of the Abhidhamma and co. Some books and co. they have, but complete I do not know. They have the Pa.tisambidha and co. complete. As to Burmese, let us ask Han, but I believe they have complete translations. ------ Nina. #113004 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Texts, was:The clansman.. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/10/2011 2:15:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Translations differ. So we may read texts in a different way. I take it that ignorant people cling to what is seen and conceive wrongly, but the Tathagata does not. ------------------------------------------- But, Nina, that is not what is said here. Clinging isn't discussed here. It is construing of objects sensed, objects not sensed, and objects to-be-sensed that is denied, and a senser is denied. -------------------------------------------- Op 9-jan-2011, om 19:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't > construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He > doesn't > construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. > "When hearing... > "When sensing... > "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an > [object as] > cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an > [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ > (From the Kalaka Sutta) -------- N: We have to read the whole sutta and this is the essence, PTS transl: In Pali: ma~n~nati, which can be translated as conceiving. The Buddha does not conceive wrongly. -------------------------------------------- He does not conceive of things sensed, unsensed, or to-be-sensed, and he does not conceive of a senser. He does not reify! --------------------------------------------- ------- Nina. ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113005 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Texts, was:The clansman.. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/10/2011 4:24:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 8-jan-2011, om 17:09 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > All namas and rupas are, as the Buddha > teaches, when seen correctly, empty/void - unreal, in fact. ------ N: They are empty in as far as they are impermanent, dukkha, anattaa, but this does not mean unreal. We have different ideas of what we mean by reality. Through satipa.t.thaana we can begin to understand what is real, different from concepts or dreams. In a dream it seems that we see people. But we do not see, we just think. When awake there is seeing and it sees what is visible. Seeing arises now, is it real? There is feeling, is it real? The Path is to be developed. Right understanding of what? Of dreams or of realities? ------------------------------------------------------- H: The Buddha says that sense-door objects are, indeed, unreal: /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) --------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: As for anger, many instances of mental states are similar and > identified (labeled) as "anger," but it is a convention to do so. > They differ from > each other in intensity and in quality. ----- N: Correct, many shades and degrees of anger, but all of these are the cetasika dosa which dislikes an object. That is its characteristic, it does not matter how we name it, nobody can change its characteristic. ------------------------------------------------------------------ H: Identification of phenomena that differ is a matter of convention and conceptualization. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > H: Moreover, an instance of what we > call "anger" rises, peaks, and falls as an emotional wave and > without precise > beginning or ending. ------ N: Through insight the arising and falling away can be penetrated very precisely. I like Ken O's insistence that understanding realities has to be very precise, that the dhamma is very precise. --------------------------------------------------------------------- H: You haven't addressed here what you quoted me as saying, Nina. -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > H: It is much like an ocean wave, conventionally thought > of as a definite and discrete thing, but not so in reality. All > that we > think of as real is other than that. Only nibbana is real. ------- N: At this moment nibaana is not experienced. So let us investigate what is experienced at this moment. Then we can come to know what is true and what is false. Seeing people: this is not true. Seeing what is visible: this is true. Thinking of people: the thinking is true, not the people. ------ Nina. =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113006 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ashkenn2k Dear pt I remember because there is no sense process for hearing as sense process hearing required rupas. If there is no hearing sense process, there is no hearing of dhamma. thus arupa beings cannot learn the dhamma cheers Ken O > > >And second, aside from the related matter that I don't quite see what's the >difference to develpment of panna for an arupa brahma being whether he knows >rupas or not, I also think I heard/read somewhere that one of the reasons >rebirth in arupa brahma planes should not be aimed for is because there are no >senses there, so no chance to actually hear/read dhamma teachings, and that's >the reason why enlightenment in those planes is unlikely. Is that right? Since >you seem to be giving a different reason. > >And since I'm here, a few largely unrelated questions: >- can beings in the arupa brahma planes actually be aware of beings in lower >realms? > >- can beings in arupa brahma planes have divine-eye and divine-ear, even if they > >don't have the usual eyes and ears? >- for heavenly beings in rupa planes - their bodies are still made of four >elements, but in some finer combination I guess? >Thanks. > >Best wishes >pt > > > > #113007 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Texts, was:The clansman.. ashkenn2k Dear Howard Real and unreal are the fundamental question of D.O. If condition dhamma is unreal, then ignorance is unreal, kamma is unreal, then why how could an unreal condition birth, ageing and death. then panna is unreal. How could an unreal panna produce a real, Nibbana. Kalaka Sutta When we read sutta, we cannot just extract certain portion of the sutta out of context. I dont know the commentary for the sutta you quote and unfortunately my knowledge of pali is bad. I could explain to you the meaning on this context the passage mean. I went to read two translation one from PTS and the other from mahindarama. The make more sense that the translation by TB. I believe Nina has given you the PTS translation, this is from the mahindarama, though I find the translation by mahindarama not very concise but still capture the essence. PTS translation is still the best. http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/Anguttara-Nikaya/an4-21-30.htm <> The using of "a" is the meaning of self or clinging. Thus in the end of the sutta, Buddha proclaim the very impt verse, "to those clinging to them" >and >/He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: >"This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as >a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ > >(From the Uraga Sutta ) KO: <>, is an important statement, knows that the world is not self, whatever self is unreal. see the more detail explanation on Dvayatanupassana Sutta >and >/Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, >delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on >awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the >noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a >dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this >with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming >from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity >coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging >for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ >(From the Potaliya Sutta) KO: see this translation http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/054-potali\ ya-e1.html <> Sensual desires is a like a dream or compared to a dream but sensual pleasure is not a dream. Even the translation by V Bodhi, compare to a dream. Why dream, after you wake up from a dream, all the pleasantness is gone, this is like sensual pleasure when one is immerse in it, it is pleasant but sensual pleasure is impermanent, it would be gone, thus it is dukkha. So the sensual pleasure is gone not because of enlightement in this context but rather the pleasure is gone like a dream. If you read the whole sutta on sensual pleasure, this is only one part that mention sensual pleasure as dream. Dont forget Buddha say in the same sutta sensual pleasure as charcoal pit, as piece of meat, as a grass torch, they are talking. At the end of these includign the dreams, the ending by B Bohdi <> these are all references to clinging - sensual pleasure clings. >and, most strikingly >/See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is >not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever >they >imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false >nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones >know >as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely >stilled and realize final deliverance./ > >(From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) KO: lets look at the sutta closely. <> This is real is refering to self conceit taking not-self as self. Then it start to imagine this self is real. So that is why the subsequent statement, <> so this is about self view, self conceit which is false in nature and persihable because it is conditioned, it is impermanent. >--------------------------------------------------- >WHAT must be precise? Conditionality? In that regard, what is the >precision you are speaking of? Conditionality certainly operates in specific >ways. I don't say otherwise. At the macroscopic level, an oak tree will grow >only from an acorn, and not without nutrients and water and sunlight, and >these cannot be replaced respectively by daisy seeds, and concrete pellets >and vinegar and flashbulb light. That is all true. Likewise, awakening >cannot occur by hoping, but only by specific conditions. >None of that, however, alters what the Buddha has said about reality. >Endings and beginnings cannot be pinpointed, and nothing is graspable. >Separate, sharply defined entities are only matters of convention, not matters >of reality. Samsara, in all respects, is the product of ignorance. Separate >entities are mere conventional existents - not nothing at all, but not >"realities" either. Only nibbana is truly real, independent of convention. KO: yes conditionally can be precisely know. That is how D.O came about. Precision does not equate to knowking about endings and begining that is speculative knowledge that Buddha refuse to answer. Nothing is graspable, then how does one concentrate and mediate. Then all jhanas are not true because mind is concentrating on an object. If the object is not specific and precise, then how does one go into jhanas. Samsara is no doubt a product of ignorance but is ignorance ungraspable, if it is ungraspable then how does Buddha pinpoint it as ignorance. And you said awaking could only by specific conditions, since it is ungraspable then how do these specific condtions come to fruition. It is not about playing with words. You are being influence too much by the Mahayana theory of emptiness. ungraspable, non-duality and unreal. That is why all your extracts from the suttas are supporting your notion of unreal, ungraspable. Thervada does not maintain this convention. Thervada understands aggregates, bases, senses, elements are all real but condition, Cheers Ken O #113008 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A lovely dream about Kaeng Krajan! ashkenn2k Dear Jon >> >> J: As far as the Satipatthana Sutta is concerned, there's no actual >>recommendation and no reference to a 'practice' of any kind. The text of the >>sutta reads as follows: >> >> "And further, O bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu, in whatever way, sees a body dead, one, >> >>two, or three days: swollen, blue and festering, thrown into the charnel ground, >> >>he thinks of his own body thus: 'This body of mine too is of the same nature as > >>that body, is going to be like that body and has not got past the condition of >>becoming like that body.'" >> >> This seems to be saying something like the following: "If a dead body is seen, > >>there is the reflecting on how one's own body is of the same nature as the >>corpse now seen." > KO: nope, there are meditation techniques taught by the Buddha in the Visudhamma. All these conceptual are used to understand dhamma, the same way like feelings now is just a conventional understanding of feelings. Even in commentaries in breathing meditation, there is a method to do it. The commentaries of satipatthana makes it very clear that on the using breath to reach jhanas then using jhanas as a basis to comptemplate dhamma. >> >> J: To my reading of the texts, the Buddha was at pains to separate the skilful > >>contemplation of conventional objects (samatha bhavana) from the understanding >>of dhammas (vipassana bhavana). Regardless of the level of a disciples' skill in >> >>the former, it was the latter that was pointed to as being the path. KO: Agreed, it is dhamma that matters. Whatever meditation one pursues, understanding of dhamma comes first and not the other way round of using mediation to understand dhammas which many are doing now. Without comprehending dhamma, there is no fruition to any dhamma meditation. It is a condition written in the suttas as well. cheers Ken O #113009 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Texts, was:The clansman.. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/10/2011 12:37:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard Real and unreal are the fundamental question of D.O. If condition dhamma is unreal, then ignorance is unreal, kamma is unreal, then why how could an unreal condition birth, ageing and death. then panna is unreal. How could an unreal panna produce a real, Nibbana. ----------------------------------------------- Nibbana is not produced. --------------------------------------------- Kalaka Sutta When we read sutta, we cannot just extract certain portion of the sutta out of context. I dont know the commentary for the sutta you quote and unfortunately my knowledge of pali is bad. I could explain to you the meaning on this context the passage mean. I went to read two translation one from PTS and the other from mahindarama. The make more sense that the translation by TB. I believe Nina has given you the PTS translation, this is from the mahindarama, though I find the translation by mahindarama not very concise but still capture the essence. PTS translation is still the best. http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/Anguttara-Nikaya/an4-21-30.htm <> The using of "a" is the meaning of self or clinging. Thus in the end of the sutta, Buddha proclaim the very impt verse, "to those clinging to them" >and >/He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: >"This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as >a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ > >(From the Uraga Sutta ) KO: <>, is an important statement, knows that the world is not self, whatever self is unreal. see the more detail explanation on Dvayatanupassana Sutta >and >/Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, >delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on >awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the >noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a >dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this >with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming >from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity >coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging >for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ >(From the Potaliya Sutta) KO: see this translation http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/054-po taliya-e1.html <> Sensual desires is a like a dream or compared to a dream but sensual pleasure is not a dream. Even the translation by V Bodhi, compare to a dream. Why dream, after you wake up from a dream, all the pleasantness is gone, this is like sensual pleasure when one is immerse in it, it is pleasant but sensual pleasure is impermanent, it would be gone, thus it is dukkha. So the sensual pleasure is gone not because of enlightement in this context but rather the pleasure is gone like a dream. If you read the whole sutta on sensual pleasure, this is only one part that mention sensual pleasure as dream. Dont forget Buddha say in the same sutta sensual pleasure as charcoal pit, as piece of meat, as a grass torch, they are talking. At the end of these includign the dreams, the ending by B Bohdi <> these are all references to clinging - sensual pleasure clings. >and, most strikingly >/See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is >not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever >they >imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false >nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones >know >as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely >stilled and realize final deliverance./ > >(From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) KO: lets look at the sutta closely. <> This is real is refering to self conceit taking not-self as self. ------------------------------------------------- No, it refers to what is enclosed by mind-and-body, i.e., conditioned namas and rupas. ------------------------------------------------- Then it start to imagine this self is real. So that is why the subsequent statement, <> so this is about self view, self conceit which is false in nature and persihable because it is conditioned, it is impermanent. >--------------------------------------------------- >WHAT must be precise? Conditionality? In that regard, what is the >precision you are speaking of? Conditionality certainly operates in specific >ways. I don't say otherwise. At the macroscopic level, an oak tree will grow >only from an acorn, and not without nutrients and water and sunlight, and >these cannot be replaced respectively by daisy seeds, and concrete pellets >and vinegar and flashbulb light. That is all true. Likewise, awakening >cannot occur by hoping, but only by specific conditions. >None of that, however, alters what the Buddha has said about reality. >Endings and beginnings cannot be pinpointed, and nothing is graspable. >Separate, sharply defined entities are only matters of convention, not matters >of reality. Samsara, in all respects, is the product of ignorance. Separate >entities are mere conventional existents - not nothing at all, but not >"realities" either. Only nibbana is truly real, independent of convention. KO: yes conditionally can be precisely know. That is how D.O came about. Precision does not equate to knowking about endings and begining that is speculative knowledge that Buddha refuse to answer. Nothing is graspable, then how does one concentrate and mediate. Then all jhanas are not true because mind is concentrating on an object. If the object is not specific and precise, then how does one go into jhanas. Samsara is no doubt a product of ignorance but is ignorance ungraspable, if it is ungraspable then how does Buddha pinpoint it as ignorance. And you said awaking could only by specific conditions, since it is ungraspable then how do these specific condtions come to fruition. It is not about playing with words. You are being influence too much by the Mahayana theory of emptiness. ungraspable, non-duality and unreal. That is why all your extracts from the suttas are supporting your notion of unreal, ungraspable. Thervada does not maintain this convention. Thervada understands aggregates, bases, senses, elements are all real but condition, ------------------------------------------ I have quoted the Buddha, and not material from Theravada or Mahayana. ------------------------------------------ Cheers Ken O ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113010 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:49 pm Subject: Calm and Insight! bhikkhu5 Friends: All Buddhas Awakened by Breath Meditation! It has aspects both of serene calm (Samatha ) & incisive insight (Vipassana ). It is extraordinarily advantageous to train this unique breathing technique. Can recommend this booklet about standard Breathing Meditation very much: Mindfulness of Breathing. Classic Anapanasati meditation manual of the root Pali texts translated by Bhikkhu Ñānamoli. BPS. 1998. http://what-buddha-said.net/library/pdfs/anapanasati.pdf The ideal is when C alm and Insight goes hand in hand, as if yoked together! <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <...> #113011 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:29 am Subject: Re: Questions on Samatha. truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >S: Kevin's discussion with KS and myself (#109607). Kevin had asked >why the Buddha ad mentioned jhana "hundreds or thousands" of times >if >there was no need to talk about jhana. KS replied by asking >whether >among those who became enlightened, were there more who did >so by >just developing vipassana or those who developed vipassana >and > >samatha (to jhana levels). The answer is by vipassana alone. How do we know about what we need to reach Stream Entry? I do hope that the path is easier, and requires less hard work than more work. There seemed to be plenty of "magga while cooking" teachings, and it can have happened to some gifted people. But is the easy path sufficient for those of us with lots of defilements? It is true that some suttas talk about the possibility of awakening while listening with the condition that there are no kamma and defilement obstructions present. One of the benefits of samatha is that it temporary suppresses defilements, this gives wisdom the opportunity to really contemplate with wisdom, rather than being blinded by the defilements. Thus for some it may be helpful to do samatha before contemplation. IMHO. With metta, Alex #113012 From: "Christine" Date: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:25 am Subject: Vinaya - voluntary bankruptcy and ordaining ... possible or not? christine_fo... Hello all, If one has debts that are being comfortably managed, but may never be fully paid off - is it possible to ordain as a bhikkhu by first voluntarily declaring bankruptcy? with metta Chris #113013 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:36 am Subject: Re: Problem of other minds kenhowardau Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Ken H (& other Queenslanders), > > Hope you're all surviving the floods - on CNN last nite, it had wiped all the snow dramas aside for the main story of the day! ------- KH: Since then, the situation has gone from bad to worse. I'm one of the lucky ones above flood level, but the rain is still bucketing down. ------------- S: > Always a drama round the corner for those of us lost in samsara! ------------- KH: A sea of concepts! :-) ---------------- S: > Talking of which, I appreciated the dialogue you and Howard were having: ---------------- KH: Thanks, and the same goes for you and your dialogues. This one (with K Sujin) for example: "What is the characteristic of sila? Anatta." Ken H PS: You'll notice that I am putting "KH:" in front of all my lines now (not just the old ones). It goes against the grain: I had the perfect system before, if only everyone else would have followed suit. Oh well! :-) #113014 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:28 am Subject: Re: Vinaya - voluntary bankruptcy and ordaining ... possible or not? gazita2002 Hallo Chris, hope you are staying high and dry in SEQ. I'm feeling quite shocked by the devastation that is occuring down yr way. re yr question: I guess you are asking a vinaya point. What would have householders in the buddha's time have done when they wanted to ordain and had debts? I personally dont know, but am wondering about the person for whom you are enquiring; why does he wish to ordain? hopefully not to escape his debts...... that may be quite unfair on my part but have to ask.. Stay safe Chris, looks like the next coupla days could get hairy!!! patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > > Hello all, > > If one has debts that are being comfortably managed, but may never be fully paid off - is it possible to ordain as a bhikkhu by first voluntarily declaring bankruptcy? > > with metta > Chris > #113015 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:44 am Subject: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 1. nilovg Dear Han and friends, Latent Tendencies, Chapter 4, no 1. Issue: Are the latent tendencies defilements that are eradicated by the noble eightfold Path? Conclusion of this Issue: The latent tendencies are subtle defilements which are to be eradicated by the noble eightfold Path. The sources which give the reason for this conclusion are the following: The Path of Discrimination (Pa.tisambhidaamagga, Khuddaka Nikaaya), in Treatise XXIII, the section on Convergence(Abhisamaya Kathaa: penetration, at enlightenment) explains about the defilements that are to be eradicated by the noble eightfold Path. After dealing with the Path-factors and all the enlightenment factors it is said that convergence is in the sense of end, nibbaana which merges in the deathless is convergence. We then read: How then, is convergence that much only? No. At the moment of stream-entry path: there is convergence of seeing, which is right view (and so on).. knowledge of destruction in the sense of cutting off is convergence.... in the sense of end, nibbaana which merges in the deathless is convergence. How then, is convergence that much only? No. At the moment of the fruition of stream-entry: there is convergence of seeing, which is right view (and so on)... knowledge of non-arising in the sense of tranquillization is convergence... in the sense of end, nibbaana which merges in the deathless is convergence. How then, is convergence that much only? No. At the moment of the once-return path: there is convergence of seeing, which is right view (and so on)... How then, is convergence that much only? No. At the moment of the fruition of the once-return path: there is convergence of seeing, which is right view (and so on)... At the moment of the non-return path... at the moment of the fruition of the non-return path... at the moment of the arahant path... at the moment of the fruition of arahanship: there is convergence of seeing, which is right view (and so on)... knowledge of non-arising in the sense of tranquillization is convergence, in the sense of end, nibbaana which merges in the deathless is convergence. When the noble person abandons defilements, does he then abandon past defilements, abandon future defilements, abandon presently-arisen defilements? The commentary to the Pa.tisambhidaamagga gives the following explanations. It states that the venerable Saariputta wanted to separate convergence of Path and of Fruition. He wanted to answer to those who asked whether the noble person abandons past defilements, abandons future defilements, abandons presently-arisen defilements. This was an opportunity for him to correct those who objected. We read in the text of the Pa.tisambhidaamagga (11): [Suppose that] he abandons past defilements. If he abandons past defilements, he destroyed what has already been destroyed, causes to cease what has already ceased, causes to vanish what has already vanished, causes to subside what has already subsided. What is past, which is non-existent, that he abandons? He does not abandon past defilements. [Suppose that] he abandons future defilements. If he abandons future defilements, he abandons what has not been born, he abandons what has not been generated, he abandons what has not been arisen, he abandons what has not become manifest. What is future, which is non-existent, that he abandons? He does not abandon future defilements. [Suppose that] he abandons presently-arisen defilements. If he abandons presently-arisen defilements, then though inflamed with greed, he abandons greed, though corrupted by hate, he abandons hate, though deluded, he abandons delusion, though shackled, he abandons conceit, though misapprehending, he abandons wrong view, though distracted, he abandons agitation, though undecided, he abandons uncertainty, though having inveterate habits, he abandons underlying-tendency, dark and bright ideas (dhammas) occur coupled together, and there is development of a path that has defilement. He does not abandon past defilements and he does not abandon future defilements and he does not abandon presently-arisen defilements. This refers to medium defilements, pariyutthaana kilesa, defilements arising with the akusala citta. -------- Pali text: Yvaaya.m kilese pajahati, atiite kilese pajahati, anaagate kilese pajahati, paccuppanne kilese pajahati? Atiite kilese pajahatiiti. Ha~nci atiite kilese pajahati, tena hi khii.na.m khepeti, niruddha.m nirodheti, vigata.m vigameti, attha"ngata.m attha"ngameti, atiita.m ya.m na atthi ta.m pajahatiiti? Na atiite kilese pajahatiiti. Anaagate kilese pajahatiiti. Ha~nci anaagate kilese pajahati, tena hi ajaata.m pajahati, anibbatta.m pajahati, anuppanna.m pajahati, apaatubhuuta.m pajahati, anaagata.m ya.m na atthi ta.m pajahatiiti? Na anaagate kilese pajahatiiti. Paccuppanne kilese pajahatiiti. Ha~nci paccuppanne kilese pajahati, tena hi ratto raaga.m pajahati, du.t.tho dosa.m pajahati, muu.lho moha.m pajahati, vinibaddho maana.m pajahati, paraama.t.tho di.t.thi.m pajahati, vikkhepagato uddhacca.m pajahati, ani.t.tha"ngato vicikiccha.m pajahati, thaamagato anusaya.m pajahati, ka.nhasukkadhammaa yuganaddhaa samameva vattanti, sa.mkilesikaa maggabhaavanaa hoti. Na hi atiite kilese pajahati, na anaagate kilese pajahati, na paccuppanne kilese pajahatiiti. ------- Nina. #113016 From: han tun Date: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:49 am Subject: Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 1. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your clear and useful presentation. I have no questions, but if you may allow me, I would like to add some text. [Nina]: The “Path of Discrimination” (Pa.tisambhidaamagga, Khuddaka Nikaaya), in Treatise XXIII, the section on “Convergence”(Abhisamaya Kathaa: penetration, at enlightenment) explains about the defilements that are to be eradicated by the noble eightfold Path. After dealing with the Path-factors and all the enlightenment factors it is said that convergence is “in the sense of end, nibbaana which merges in the deathless is convergence.” [Han]: The following is the text before “in the sense of end, nibbaana which merges in the deathless is convergence.” Probably, for the sake of brevity, Nina did not go this into detail. But I think it may be useful to have a complete picture. ------------------ There is convergence of the faculties in the sense of dominance; there is convergence of the powers in the sense of unshakability; there is convergence of the enlightenment factors in the sense of outlet; there is convergence of the path in the sense of cause; there is convergence of the foundations of midfulness in the sense of establishment; there is convergence of the right endeavors in the sense of endeavoring; there is convergence of the bases for success in the sense of succeeding; there is convergence of the actualities in the sense of suchness (reality). Aadhipateyya.t.thena indriyaabhisamayo, akampiya.t.thena balaabhisamayo, niyyaana.t.thena bojjha"ngaabhisamayo, hetu.t.thena maggaabhisamayo, upa.t.thaana.t.thena satipa.t.thaanaabhisamayo, padaha.t.thena sammappadhaanaabhisamayo , ijjhana.t.thena iddhipaadaabhisamayo, tatha.t.thena saccaabhisamayo, ----------- There is convergence of serenity in the sense of non-distraction; there is convergence of insight in the sense of contemplation; there is convergence of serenity and insight in the sense of single function (taste); there is convergence of coupling in the sense of non-excess. avikkhepa.t.thena samathaabhisamayo, anupassana.t.thena vipassanaabhisamayo, ekarasa.t.thena samathavipassanaabhisamayo, anativattana.t.thena yuganaddhaabhisamayo, ----------- Purification of virtue in the sense of restraint is convergence; purification of cognizance in the sense of non-distraction is convergence; purification of view in the sense of seeing is convergence; liberation in the sense of freedom is convergence; recognition in the sense of penetration is convergence; deliverance in the sense of giving up is convergence; knowledge of exhaustion (destruction) in the sense of cutting off is convergence. sa.mvara.t.thena siilavisuddhiabhisamayo, avikkhepa.t.thena citta visuddhiabhisamayo, dassana.t.thena di.t.thivisuddhiabhisamayo, mutta.t.thena vimokkhaabhisamayo, pa.tivedha.t.thena vijjaabhisamayo, pariccaaga.t.thena vimuttiabhisamayo, samuccheda.t.thena khaye ~naa.na.m abhisamayo. ---------- In the sense of root foundation, zeal is convergence; in the sense of origination, attention is convergence; in the sense of combining, contact is convergence; [Han: ************ one sentence missing here] in the sense of being foremost, concentration is convergence; in the sense of dominance, mindfulness is convergence; in the sense of being the highest of all, understanding is convergence; in the sense of core, deliverance is convergence; in the sense of end, nibbana which merges in the deathless is convergence. chando muula.t.thena abhisamayo, manasikaaro samu.t.thaana.t.thena abhisamayo, phasso samodhaana.t.thena abhisamayo, vedanaa samosara.na.t.thena abhisamayo, samaadhi pamukha.t.thena abhisamayo , sati aadhipateyya.t.thena abhisamayo, pa~n~naa tatuttara.t.thena abhisamayo, vimutti saara.t.thena abhisamayo, amatogadha.m nibbaana.m pariyosaana.t.thena abhisamayo. --------------------- Respectfully, Han #113017 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:14 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 1. nilovg Dear Han, Op 11-jan-2011, om 12:49 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > probably, for the sake of brevity, Nina did not go this into detail. ----- Thank you very much. In the text, no 3 this was abridged with dots. The Thai study did not go into them. They are in full in the text just before. Besides, it would be too long. And the focus is on the eradication: what is being eradicated and when? But if we go into detail, some of these are difficult to understand. They are also mentioned in Ch XIV, Reviewing. I will also consult my Thai commentary. Like these: In the sense of root foundation, zeal is convergence; chando muula.t.thena abhisamayo, ------ N: Perhaps, kusala chanda is so important when beginning to develop the Path leading to enlightenment? It is a foundation. -------- in the sense of origination, attention is convergence; manasikaaro samu.t.thaana.t.thena abhisamayo, ------- N: Yoniso manasikaara is the proximate cause of all kusala. Is this the meaning? ------- [Han: ************ one sentence missing here] Pali:vedanaa samosara.na.t.thena abhisamayo, N: I fill in: in the sense of union (coming together) feeling is convergence. But the meaning? ------- I like this one: in the sense of being the highest of all, understanding is convergence; pa~n~naa tatuttara.t.thena abhisamayo, -------- Now, several of these are not so clear, and I wonder how you make out. -------- You saved me a lot of typing with your text quotes. The more I read on, the clearer it becomes. There is also reference to paralel texts in the sammoha vinodanii, Dispeller of Delusion. At first I thought that this is all too diffiuclt for me, but I am glad I continue. We read a lot about eradication, but we do not know much about it without all these texts. Thank you for your input and suggestions, very helpful and inspiring to continue with this study, Nina. #113018 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:08 pm Subject: Re: Vinaya - voluntary bankruptcy and ordaining ... possible or not? truth_aerator Hello Chris, all, > If one has debts that are being comfortably managed, but may never >be >fully paid off - is it possible to ordain as a bhikkhu by first >voluntarily declaring bankruptcy? If a person declares bankruptcy, he is no longer indebted to creditors, and unsecured debts are, or will, be written-off. I wonder if one is considered to be in debt if bankruptcy declared, especially if it is a corporate bankruptcy without personal guarantee. While most/all business assets valued more than a certain sum of money can be taken by bankruptcy trustee, one would loose much more worldly things by ordaining. This is my opinion. The rule making one undesirable (but it doesn't invalidate ordination) regarding debts is most likely rooted in political and social context of ancient world in which the Buddha has lived and for which He was giving some of these rules. In ancient India, there probably weren't humane rules where you could go bankrupt and write-off ALL unsecured debts, and have creditor protection (creditors legally can't touch you, and you are no longer in debt to them). Bankruptcy probably didn't exist back then as it does now. In ancient world, if you were in debt and couldn't pay, you could have become someone's slave, be tortured, or they could hire assassins to kill you as a punishment. The Buddha probably didn't want creditors to go against members of the sangha, and He probably didn't want the laity to view monasticism as an escape from slavery or creditors. Bankruptcy is for the reason to terminate the unsuccessful business and to write-off unsecured debts. Life happens and sometimes one can't pay off borrowed money. Bankruptcy is for that reason. You are no longer in debt (at least after 1 year or so, and after 7 years the credit report is clean) when you go bankrupt, and could start a new business later on. Should there be more value placed on paying off debts, or on ordaining (for a valid reason, maggaphala)? IMHO, With metta, Alex #113019 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:46 pm Subject: Concepts vs reality: Numbers & arithmetic operations truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, Are numbers (1,2,3,... etc") concepts? Do they exist, or are only conceptual ideas (perhaps false ones)? What about interaction between numbers (addition +, subtraction -, multiplication*, division /, etc). Are they ("+,-,*,/,") conceptual or real? With metta, Alex #113020 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs reality: Numbers & arithmetic operations upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Nina & all) - In a message dated 1/11/2011 2:52:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Nina, all, Are numbers (1,2,3,... etc") concepts? Do they exist, or are only conceptual ideas (perhaps false ones)? What about interaction between numbers (addition +, subtraction -, multiplication*, division /, etc). Are they ("+,-,*,/,") conceptual or real? With metta, Alex ====================================== Numbers and operations on them are ideas, and quite abstract ones. They are also, of course, very, very useful ones. Why do you ask about this, Alex? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113021 From: han tun Date: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:36 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 1. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind remarks. To start with, the translation of the title of the chapter itself is misleading for me. Abhisamaya was translated by Ven ~Naanamoli as "convergence" and I think it is not quite appropriate. Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera: abhisamaya = realisation; penetration. PTS Dictionary: abhisamaya = insight into, comprehension, realization, clear understanding, grasp, penetration. Burmese translation: abhisamaya = coming to an agreement, penetrative knowing. [In this chapter the Burmese translation takes the second meaning, i.e., knowing penetratively.] The main essence of the treatise is that if one wants to eradicate the kilesas, one must know *these* with penetrative knowing. Then the chapter explains what *these* are. If you read the English translation by Ven ~Naanamoli with this meaning in mind, you will understand it better. -------------------- In English translation, paragraph (2) [in Pali text, paragraph 20] indicates what are *these* to know penetratively? The text I have so far given to you is not the complete text of paragraph (2) of English translation [Pali para 20]. There are some more at the beginning of the paragraph (2). I will now give them below. -------------------- 2. How then, is convergence that much only? No. At the moment of the supramundane path: there is convergence of seeing, which is right view; there is convergence of directing onto, which is right thought; there is convergence of embracing, which is right speaking; there is convergence of originating, which is right acting; there is convergence of cleansing, which is right living; there is convergence of exertion, which is right effort; there is convergence of establishing, which is right mindfulness; there is convergence of non-distraction, which is right concentration. 2. Ki.mnu ettakoyeva abhisamayoti? Na hi. Lokuttaramaggakkha.ne dassanaabhisamayo sammaadi.t.thi, abhiniropanaabhisamayo sammaasa"nkappo, pariggahaabhisamayo sammaavaacaa, samu.t.thaanaabhisamayo sammaakammanto, vodaanaabhisamayo sammaaaajiivo, paggahaabhisamayo sammaavaayaamo, upa.t.thaanaabhisamayo sammaasati, avikkhepaabhisamayo sammaasamaadhi; ---------- There is convergence of establishing, which is the mindfulness enlightenment factor; [ other enlightenment factors up to]... there is convergence of reflexion, which is the equanimity enlightenment factor. upa.t.thaanaabhisamayo satisambojjha"ngo, pavicayaabhisamayo dhammavicayasambojjha"ngo, paggahaabhisamayo viiriyasambojjha"ngo, phara.naabhisamayo piitisambojjha"ngo, upasamaabhisamayo passaddhisambojjha"ngo, avikkhepaabhisamayo samaadhisambojjha"ngo, pa.tisa"nkhaanaabhisamayo upekkhaasambojjha"ngo; ---------- There is convergence of unshakability by non-faith, which is the faith power; ... [and so on for the other powers up to] ... There is convergence of unshakability by ignorance, which is the understanding power. assaddhiye akampiyaabhisamayo saddhaabala.m, kosajje akampiyaabhisamayo viiriyabala.m, pamaade akampiyaabhisamayo satibala.m, uddhacce akampiyaabhisamayo samaadhibala.m, avijjaaya akampiyaabhisamayo pa~n~naabala.m; ---------- There is convergence of resolution, which is the faith faculty; ...[and so on, up to] ... There is convergence of seeing, which is the understanding faculty. adhimokkhaabhisamayo saddhindriya.m, paggahaabhisamayo viiriyindriya.m, upa.t.thaanaabhisamayo satindriya.m, avikkhepaabhisamayo samaadhindriya.m, dassanaabhisamayo pa~n~nindriya.m. -------------------- Han: Now I have given you the complete text of English translation paragraph (2) Then, the English translation paragraphs (3) to (10) repeat para (2) for each of the following moments (kha.na): Sotaapattimaggakkha.ne, Sotaapattiphalakkha.ne, Sakadaagaamimaggakkha.ne, Sakadaagaamiphalakkha.ne, Anaagaamimaggakkha.ne, Anaagaamiphalakkha.ne, Arahattamaggakkha.ne, Arahattaphalakkha.ne ---------- In paragraph (11) it says that: (i) He does not abandon past defilements, because he had already abandoned past defilements, he had already destroyed them. (ii) He does not abandon future defilements, because future defilements have not yet arisen. (iii) But as regards the presently-arisen defilements, "If he abandons presently-arisen defilements, then though inflamed with greed, he abandons greed, though corrupted by hate, he abandons hate, though deluded, he abandons delusion, though shackled, he abandons conceit, though misapprehending, he abandons wrong view, though distracted, he abandons agitation, though undecided, he abandons uncertainty, though having inveterate habits, he abandons underlying-tendency [anusaya.m pajahati], dark and bright ideas (dhammas) occur coupled together, and there is development of a path that has defilement." [Han: Here, it reminds me of the frequent reminders by Nina and Sarah: "what about the present"?] --------------------- Han: I will now give my response to some of your comments. ---------- Text: manasikaaro samu.t.thaana.t.thena abhisamayo, Nina: Yoniso manasikaara is the proximate cause of all kusala. Is this the meaning? Han: Yes, you can take it that way. The direct translation in Burmese version is "manasikaara is the origination of (samu.t.thaana) penetrative knowledge." ---------- [Han: ************ one sentence missing here] Pali:vedanaa samosara.na.t.thena abhisamayo, N: I fill in: in the sense of union (coming together) feeling is convergence. But the meaning? Han: I think we have to look at these two sentences: phasso samodhaana.t.thena abhisamayo, vedanaa samosara.na.t.thena abhisamayo, PTS Dictionary: samodhaana = to come together, to combine. samosara.na = coming together, meeting, union, junction. Thus, these two sentences are very similar in meaning. I think we may have to look at them in the context of D.O, i.e., phassa paccaya vedanaa, vedanaa paccaya ta.nhaa. -------------------- Respectfully, Han #113022 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:04 pm Subject: Re: Concepts vs reality: Numbers & arithmetic operations truth_aerator Hello Howard, >Numbers and operations on them are ideas, and quite abstract ones. >They are also, of course, very, very useful ones. Why do you ask >about this, Alex? So all *numerical* things related to Dhamma are conceptual. Trillions (a number, an idea) of cittas arising ever split second is a conventional teaching. One or many minds (a number, an abstract idea) is an idea... Exact amount of years elapsed since the beggining of samsara is also conceptual (amount is a number). Amount of positive/negative accumulations... etc... With metta, Alex #113023 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs reality: Numbers & arithmetic operations kenhowardau Hi Alex and Howard, <. . .> H: > Numbers and operations on them are ideas, and quite abstract ones. They are also, of course, very, very useful ones. Why do you ask about this, Alex? -------------- KH: The realities are composed of namas (citta and cetasika) and rupas, only. All other things are concepts. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I wonder why Alex, after all his years at DSG, doesn't know that. And he is not alone; there are many others like him! I think it is because this is an enormous step in Dhamma-study that some of us are simply not prepared to take. Once we have taken it, and recognised the difference between realities and concepts, there is no turning back. The world can never be the same for us again. :-) Ken H . #113024 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs reality: Numbers & arithmetic operations truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, > <. . .> > H: > Numbers and operations on them are ideas, and quite abstract ones. They are also, of course, very, very useful ones. Why do you ask about this, Alex? > -------------- > > KH: The realities are composed of namas (citta and cetasika) and rupas, only. All other things are concepts. > > I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I wonder why Alex, after all >his years at DSG, doesn't know that. I knew that. I just wanted to know what others think and get the discussion started. That numbers are concepts, and are different from realities, brings certain questions like: 1) "isn't the amount of cittas happening per second, or their duration a conceptual statement?" 2) And by being conceptual, does it make it any less real? With metta, Alex #113025 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts vs reality: Numbers & arithmetic operations upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 1/11/2011 6:04:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, >Numbers and operations on them are ideas, and quite abstract ones. >They are also, of course, very, very useful ones. Why do you ask >about this, Alex? So all *numerical* things related to Dhamma are conceptual. Trillions (a number, an idea) of cittas arising ever split second is a conventional teaching. One or many minds (a number, an abstract idea) is an idea... Exact amount of years elapsed since the beggining of samsara is also conceptual (amount is a number). Amount of positive/negative accumulations... etc... With metta, Alex ===================================== Of course! For that matter, there is no thinking, reading, writing, or talking at all without concepts. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113026 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:05 am Subject: Kill Anger! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Only Clever Killing: Sakka - the king of the 33 divinities - once spoke these verses to the Blessed Buddha : Having slain what, does one sleep in ease? Having slain what, does one never sorrow? What is the one thing 0ohh Gotama Whose killing you can approve? The Blessed One: Having slain Anger, one sleeps in ease; Having slain Anger, one does not sorrow The killing of Anger, 0ohh Vasava With its poisoned root and honeyed tip: This is the killing, the Noble Ones approve. For having slain that, one does not grieve. Sakka continued: I am not one easily upset in mind. Nor easily agitated by anger's whirl. I never become angry for long Nor does anger hang on in me. When angry, I do not despise. Nor do I praise own qualities. I keep myself well under control. Thus protecting my own good future! Therefore: Bring Anger under control; Do not let your friendships waste away. Do not blame the one who is blameless; Do not speak splitting or divisive speech. Their own anger crushes enraged people. Like the roaring mountain avalanche! Do not let Anger overpower you; Do not become angry with the angry. Noble Ones always remain harmless. Their own hate crushes angry people. Like a devastating mountain avalanche. FUEL ON FIRE ? Not by anger is Hate ever quenched. Only by Kind Friendliness is Hate always quenched. This Ancient Law is an Eternal Truth ... Dhammapada Illustration 5 Background Story 5 <...> Source: The Grouped sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya I 237-40 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #113027 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:03 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Jon. I am trying to keep up/catch up with you, but I may soon fail... I will do my best...even as I work towards a big tax deadline... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (112824) > > If I help someone who is suffering and my motives are bad, sure that will spoil the "goodness" of the act for me. But isn't it still kusala that the suffering was ended in that case? I am not sure that there is not an aspect of kusala even to an akusala motive, if the act has a positive consequence. I will say that I am unsure about this. > > =============== > > J: As I mentioned before, the terms 'kusala' and 'akusala' apply to citta and cetasikas and not to conventional 'results' of deeds. Here again is the entry from Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' for the term 'kusala': Is Nyanatiloka the final authority on all Buddhist definitions? Here is a more basic definition derived by a Buddhist dictionary from Access to Insight - Kusala: Wholesome, skillful, good, meritorious. An action characterized by this moral quality (kusala-kamma) is bound to result (eventually) in happiness and a favorable outcome. Actions characterized by its opposite (akusala-kamma) lead to sorrow. See kamma. I think it's a bit of an interpretive choice whether one sees the "moral quality" applying to the intention or the action, and that is not clarified in the direction of mental qualities in sutta. Nyanatiloka was trained in Burma and was a pretty strong adherent I think to Abhidhamma and commentaries, so his definition would be naturally turned towards your general direction. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's not conclusive. > *********************************** > kusala > > 'karmically wholesome' or 'profitable', salutary, morally good, (skillful) > > It is defined in M.9 as the 10 wholesome courses of action (kammapatha). > > In psychological terms, 'karmically wholesome' are all those karmical volitions (kamma-cetanā) and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, which are accompanied by 2 or 3 wholesome roots (smūla), i.e. by greedlessness (alobha) and hatelessness (adosa), and in some cases also by non-delusion (amoha: wisdom, understanding). Such states of consciousness are regarded as 'karmically wholesome' as they are causes of favourable karma results and contain the seeds of a happy destiny or rebirth. > > From this explanation, two facts should be noted: > (1) it is volition that makes a state of consciousness, or an act, 'good' or 'bad'; > (2) the moral criterion in Buddhism is the presence or absence of the 3 wholesome or moral roots (s. mūla). ... > > Kusala belongs to a threefold division of all consciousness, as found in the Abhidhamma (Dhs.), into > wholesome (kusala), > unwholesome (akusala) and > karmically neutral (avyākata), > which is the first of the triads (tika) in the Abhidhamma schedule (mātikā). > *********************************** > > > =============== > > But even if that is not the case, we can still say that certain types of actions are inherently akusala because they increase suffering. The reason why there is prohibition against killing animals or people is not *only* because of the level of hatred that may be necessary to perform the act, but because they cause suffering to the other being involved. > > =============== > > J: If you're referring to the precepts, I'd say the reason for these being recommended is that breaches of the precepts can condition rebirth in circumstances in which there is no opportunity to hear the Dhamma and thus no chance to develop the path leading to the ending of samsara. Why do breaches of ethics cause unfavorable rebirth? Because they are akusala, no? Why are they akusala? Because they lead to akusala actions. The term is not "thinking about breaking the precepts," or "breaking them internally," but "breaking the precepts," which involves doing something; just like "murder" is not a thought or intention, but the completion of the action. I think I'm onto something here! :-) > > =============== > > I can agree with you to the extent that such involvements would ultimately cause a kusala or akusala mental state, and that ultimately that is what counts, but I will not agree that Buddha only specified mental kusala and akusala because this is clearly not the case. > > =============== > > J: I've not said that the Buddha specified only the mental states. What I've said is that when he spoke about, for example, acts of generosity he was referring to the acts of generosity performed *with kusala mental states*, I agree that kusala mental states and kusala actions often go together. That does not make the actions inconsequential. > Take for example the deeds known as kamma-patha (courses of action), given as 10 akusala and 10 kusala (they are called 'courses of action' because they can condition rebirth in woeful or pleasant planes). From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' again: > > *********************************** > kamma-patha > > 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. well, still he does say actions. Why do actions condition *anything* if the only kusala is in the mental state? > I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): > 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; > 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; > 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. > Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. And also, he specifies mental actions as a *separate category,* not as the underlying defining factor of the other two cateogries, which are bodily and verbal, *not* explicitly mental in nature. Why are there three separate categories of unwholesome acts, and why is only *one* of those categories "mental?" > Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'. > > II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): > 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; > 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; > 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. > > Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A.X.28, 176; M.9; > they are explained in detail in M.114, and in Com. to M.9 (R. Und., p. 14), Atthasālini Tr. I, 126ff. > *********************************** It seems to me that those lists make my point that mental factors are only one aspect of akusala and not the sole determining factor in all akusala. > > =============== > > > > If it were the case, Buddha could have said "do not cultivate thoughts of hatred, and even if it is necessary to kill someone do so without any thought of anger or hatred to keep it pure." He didn't say anything so absurd. He said it is *not* okay to kill a living being, period, regardless of mental state, good or ill. Do you not agree? Do we not torture ourselves over killing an insect in the Buddhist community. Is it not considered to *always* be akusala and carry negative kamma? Why is this so? > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, taking the life of another being necessarily involves some moments of akusala, and is one of the types of akusala kamma patha (i.e., can condition rebirth in a lower plane). Sure, but the question is whether only the mental factor causes the akusala and I am contending it is not. > > =============== > > What if I end the life of someone who is suffering, out of compassion? Is this considered kusala in Buddhism? I have a kusala mental state. Is it okay with Buddha if I kill someone out of love? What's the kamma in that case? > > =============== > > J: As far as I'm aware, there's no mention in the texts of the possibility of taking life with kusala. That's my point. It is akusala *regardless* of the intention and/or mental state. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113028 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 1/5/2011 8:25:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > Hi Ken H. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Robert E, > > > > You and I have already had this discussion - at length. > > > > ----- > > RE: > So you're saying they are not empty, ie, do not have the > characteristic of sunya? I think you're having a bit of disagreement with the > Buddha. Sunya and anatta go hand in hand. > > ----- > > > > As far as I know, the term sunya (sunna) does not add anything to the > meaning of anatta. It is an adjective meaning void. The Buddhist dictionary > gives a quote: "Void is the world . . . because it is void of a self and > anything belonging to a self." > > > > It also says dhammas are "coreless" and that coreless means "without > core of permanency, or core of happiness or core of self." > > > > Howard, along with milliions of Mahayanists, likes to extend the > definitions of sunna and coreless to mean "void of absolute reality." But in > doing so he neglects the entire teaching of conditionality. > > > > Speak to him, Robert, see what you can do. :-) > > Before you start calling people Mahayanists based on their assessment of > dhammas as fleeting and lacking own-being, you might try reading the Vis. > It's take on dhammas is decidely in the same direction as Howard's, and they > use variations of sunya quite freely in that regard. You may want to walk > back a step before you say that people who view dhammas this way are not > Theravadin. > > I borrow these quotes from the Vis from Useful Posts, where it was quoted > at greater length by Sarah. I came across it "by chance," while looking i > nto ayatanas: > > (from Vis 15) "As to how to be seen: here all formed bases should be > regarded as having no provenance and no destination. for they do not come from > anywhere prior to their rise, nor do they go anywhere after their fall. > > "On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence > , and after their fall their individual essences are completely > dissolved. And they occur without mastery (being exercisable over them) > since they exist in dependence on conditions and in between past and the > future. Hence they should be regarded a having no provenance and no destination. > > "...it is the absolute rule that the eye-consciousness, etc, come into > being with the union of the eye with visible datum, and so on. So they should > be regarded as incurious and uninterested." > > ... > > "Furthermore, the internal bases should be regarded as an empty village > because they are devoid of lastingness, pleasure, and self..." > > Let me review some of the statements here from the Vis for your > edification: > > "...all formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no > destination. for they do not come from anywhere prior to their rise, nor do > they go anywhere after their fall." > > "On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence > , and after their fall their individual essences are completely > dissolved." > > "...they exist in dependence on conditions and in between past and the > future. Hence they should be regarded a having no provenance and no > destination." > > "...the internal bases should be regarded as an empty village because they > are devoid of lastingness, pleasure, and self..." > > An *empty village,* Ken. The "essences" of these dhammas are spoken of > disparagingly as coming from nowhere, going nowhere, existing fleetingly, and > having no standing, stature or meaning. The consciousness which perceives > them is spoken of as being mechanical and dependent on conditions. The > whole procedure and its working parts are said to have "no provenance." > > I think the Vis is even harder on these fleeting dhammas, and more > disparaging of their rise and fall, than Howard is. Perhaps Buddhaghosa was a > Mahayanist too? > > Best, > Robert E. > > ====================================== > Well, Robert, I think that your case here is not *quite* as strong as > you may think. Buddhaghosa *does* accept momentary essence (actual > separate, self-existence of a dhamma following upon non-existence of it and > followed yet again by non-existence of it). From my perspective, that is a view > that is both substantialist (an actual, delineable, separate entity with > own-being popping into existence) and annihilationist (a real, self-existent > entity immediately annihilated). I think that to find the middle-way mode of > existence that avoids both substantialism and nihilism, one needs to go > directly to the words of the Buddha in the Pali suttas - as in the material I > quoted to Ken and also, for example, in the Patisambhidhamagga, where > emptiness is emphasized and own-being is roundly criticized. I must rush to > point out, though, that the source materials of the PTSM may originate with > Sariputta rather than directly with the Buddha. Your point is taken, Howard, but I would say that notwithstanding his acceptance of arising dhammas as discrete, Buddhaghosa does seem to accept sunya or emptiness as a prominent attribute of the existence of dhammas. His characterization of the sense-bases as "an empty village" seems to give them a stronger flavor of emptiness than anatta by itself would endow it with. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113029 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:07 am Subject: Re: notes from Bangkok with A.Sujin 3b epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Pt (& Rob E) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > pt: Here's the 109704 repeated with Velthius - automatic conversion through this online tool, which is even more simple to use than the one I showed you before: > > http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/files/convertpad.htm > ... > S: This looks great - even I might be able to work it! > > thx for re-posting the messages. > > Rob, you may like to take a look at this one - note how "tranquillizing of the body" refers to the calming of the mental khandhas. I'm a little confused. Does this passage correspond to the anapanasati sutta? In the anapanasati sutta there are two sections that refer to calming formations - one that says "I will breathe...pacifying the bodily formation," [Bikkhu Bodhi translation,] and a later one that says "I will breathe...pacifying the mental formation." Bikkhu Bodhi explains in a lecture that the mental formation refers to the mental kandhas, and discusses why vedana is included in mental factors - and that the bodily formation refers to the breath and physical body as extension of the breath. In another translation physical body is used instead of physical formation, and mental formations is used in plural instead of mental formation. Is the passage you quote related to this passage in the anapanasati sutta, or is it a completely separate reference? I just don't think that both the first reference to the "body" and the second to "mental formations" can both be referring to the same mental kandhas. Thanks, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113030 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:37 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 1. nilovg Dear Han, Op 11-jan-2011, om 23:36 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > To start with, the translation of the title of the chapter itself > is misleading for me. > Abhisamaya was translated by Ven ~Naanamoli as "convergence" and I > think it is not quite appropriate. > > Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera: > abhisamaya = realisation; penetration. > > PTS Dictionary: > abhisamaya = insight into, comprehension, realization, clear > understanding, grasp, penetration. > > Burmese translation: > abhisamaya = coming to an agreement, penetrative knowing. > [In this chapter the Burmese translation takes the second meaning, > i.e., knowing penetratively.] ------- N: It could be penetrative understanding leading to enlightenment, or, penetrative understanding at the moment of enlightenment. The Thai translation has: enlightenment, tratseru. ------- Text: At the moment of the supramundane path: N: Thus here all these qualities are lokuttara, accompanying lokuttara citta. --------- Some are not so clear to me: there is convergence of embracing, which is right speaking; pariggahaabhisamayo sammaavaacaa, -------- N: pariggaha is acquirement, grasping. What is the relation to right speech? ----------- there is convergence of originating, which is right acting; samu.t.thaanaabhisamayo sammaakammanto, ------- N: Not so clear. ------- (iii) But as regards the presently-arisen defilements, "If he abandons presently-arisen defilements, .... [Han: Here, it reminds me of the frequent reminders by Nina and Sarah: "what about the present"?] -------- N: Yes, but here is explained that at the moment of enlightenment present defilements are not eradicated, and I find this very clear. --------------------- Han: I think we have to look at these two sentences: phasso samodhaana.t.thena abhisamayo, vedanaa samosara.na.t.thena abhisamayo, in the sense of combining, contact is convergence; in the sense of union (coming together) feeling is convergence. PTS Dictionary: samodhaana = to come together, to combine. samosara.na = coming together, meeting, union, junction. Thus, these two sentences are very similar in meaning. I think we may have to look at them in the context of D.O, i.e., phassa paccaya vedanaa, vedanaa paccaya ta.nhaa. --------- N: Phassa contacts the object and feeling feels about it, perhaps this is the meeting or union? ------- Thank you for all the suggestions. My impression in general: it shows how many developed good qualities are necessary for the attainment of enlightenment. It is really an impressive list. ------- Nina. #113031 From: han tun Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:18 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 1. hantun1 Dear Nina, > [Nina]: Yes, but here is explained that at the moment of enlightenment present defilements are not eradicated, and I find this very clear. [Han]: Right! But even if he does not abandon past defilements, future defilements, and presently-arisen defilements, there is development of the path, there is realization of its fruition, there is convergence of ideas. In paragraph (11) there is the following passage: He does not abandon past defilements and he does not abandon future defilements and he does not abandon presently-arisen defilements. If he does not abandon past defilements and he does not abandon future defilements, and he does not abandon presently-arisen defilements, then there is no development of the path, there is no realization of its fruition, there is no convergence of ideas? That is not so. There is development of the path, there is realization of its fruition, there is convergence of ideas! In what way? Na hi atiite kilese pajahati, na anaagate kilese pajahati, na paccuppanne kilese pajahatiiti. Ha~nci na atiite kilese pajahati, na anaagate [pe] na paccuppanne kilese pajahati, tena hi natthi maggabhaavanaa, natthi phalasacchikiriyaa, natthi kilesappahaana.m, natthi dhammaabhisamayoti? Atthi maggabhaavanaa, atthi phalasacchikiriyaa, atthi kilesappahaana.m, atthi dhammaabhisamayo. Yathaa katha.m viya? ---------- Han: The answer to the question: "In what way?" is in paragraph (12). Respectfully, Han #113032 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Jon) - In a message dated 1/12/2011 12:04:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Jon. I am trying to keep up/catch up with you, but I may soon fail... I will do my best...even as I work towards a big tax deadline... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (112824) > > If I help someone who is suffering and my motives are bad, sure that will spoil the "goodness" of the act for me. But isn't it still kusala that the suffering was ended in that case? I am not sure that there is not an aspect of kusala even to an akusala motive, if the act has a positive consequence. I will say that I am unsure about this. > > =============== > > J: As I mentioned before, the terms 'kusala' and 'akusala' apply to citta and cetasikas and not to conventional 'results' of deeds. Here again is the entry from Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' for the term 'kusala': Is Nyanatiloka the final authority on all Buddhist definitions? Here is a more basic definition derived by a Buddhist dictionary from Access to Insight - Kusala: Wholesome, skillful, good, meritorious. An action characterized by this moral quality (kusala-kamma) is bound to result (eventually) in happiness and a favorable outcome. Actions characterized by its opposite (akusala-kamma) lead to sorrow. See kamma. I think it's a bit of an interpretive choice whether one sees the "moral quality" applying to the intention or the action, and that is not clarified in the direction of mental qualities in sutta. Nyanatiloka was trained in Burma and was a pretty strong adherent I think to Abhidhamma and commentaries, so his definition would be naturally turned towards your general direction. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's not conclusive. > *********************************** > kusala > > 'karmically wholesome' or 'profitable', salutary, morally good, (skillful) > > It is defined in M.9 as the 10 wholesome courses of action (kammapatha). > > In psychological terms, 'karmically wholesome' are all those karmical volitions (kamma-cetanā) and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, which are accompanied by 2 or 3 wholesome roots (smūla), i.e. by greedlessness (alobha) and hatelessness (adosa), and in some cases also by non-delusion (amoha: wisdom, understanding). Such states of consciousness are regarded as 'karmically wholesome' as they are causes of favourable karma results and contain the seeds of a happy destiny or rebirth. > > From this explanation, two facts should be noted: > (1) it is volition that makes a state of consciousness, or an act, 'good' or 'bad'; > (2) the moral criterion in Buddhism is the presence or absence of the 3 wholesome or moral roots (s. mūla). ... > > Kusala belongs to a threefold division of all consciousness, as found in the Abhidhamma (Dhs.), into > wholesome (kusala), > unwholesome (akusala) and > karmically neutral (avyākata), > which is the first of the triads (tika) in the Abhidhamma schedule (mātikā). > *********************************** > > > =============== > > But even if that is not the case, we can still say that certain types of actions are inherently akusala because they increase suffering. The reason why there is prohibition against killing animals or people is not *only* because of the level of hatred that may be necessary to perform the act, but because they cause suffering to the other being involved. > > =============== > > J: If you're referring to the precepts, I'd say the reason for these being recommended is that breaches of the precepts can condition rebirth in circumstances in which there is no opportunity to hear the Dhamma and thus no chance to develop the path leading to the ending of samsara. Why do breaches of ethics cause unfavorable rebirth? Because they are akusala, no? Why are they akusala? Because they lead to akusala actions. The term is not "thinking about breaking the precepts," or "breaking them internally," but "breaking the precepts," which involves doing something; just like "murder" is not a thought or intention, but the completion of the action. I think I'm onto something here! :-) -------------------------------------------------------------- Killing without intent, i.e., accidental killing - for example inadvertently stepping on an ant or a surgeon making a fatal but unavoidable error during surgery, is not murdering. An action is akusala if it is intended - and intended to cause harm. The thought and intention are crucial to the moral value of the act. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > =============== > > I can agree with you to the extent that such involvements would ultimately cause a kusala or akusala mental state, and that ultimately that is what counts, but I will not agree that Buddha only specified mental kusala and akusala because this is clearly not the case. > > =============== > > J: I've not said that the Buddha specified only the mental states. What I've said is that when he spoke about, for example, acts of generosity he was referring to the acts of generosity performed *with kusala mental states*, I agree that kusala mental states and kusala actions often go together. That does not make the actions inconsequential. --------------------------------------------------------------- Actions that are accidental are morally neutral. An important aside: If one is engaged in an activity that one knows has the potential for causing harm and yet one carries it out inattentively, without care and ignoring the possibility of harm, that IS akusala. Knowingly engaging recklessly in an activity dangerous to another is evil; the knowledge and willingness to act wrongly *despite* knowing better makes the action willful. -------------------------------------------------------------- > Take for example the deeds known as kamma-patha (courses of action), given as 10 akusala and 10 kusala (they are called 'courses of action' because they can condition rebirth in woeful or pleasant planes). From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' again: > > *********************************** > kamma-patha > > 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. well, still he does say actions. Why do actions condition *anything* if the only kusala is in the mental state? ---------------------------------------------------------- All conditions have consequences. ----------------------------------------------------------- > I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): > 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; > 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; > 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. > Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. And also, he specifies mental actions as a *separate category,* not as the underlying defining factor of the other two cateogries, which are bodily and verbal, *not* explicitly mental in nature. Why are there three separate categories of unwholesome acts, and why is only *one* of those categories "mental?" ------------------------------------------------------ Why not? ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ > Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'. > > II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): > 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; > 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; > 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. > > Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A.X.28, 176; M.9; > they are explained in detail in M.114, and in Com. to M.9 (R. Und., p. 14), Atthasālini Tr. I, 126ff. > *********************************** It seems to me that those lists make my point that mental factors are only one aspect of akusala and not the sole determining factor in all akusala. ------------------------------------------------------ All these actions are ones involving intention and knowledge of their harmfulness. ------------------------------------------------------ > > =============== > > > > If it were the case, Buddha could have said "do not cultivate thoughts of hatred, and even if it is necessary to kill someone do so without any thought of anger or hatred to keep it pure." He didn't say anything so absurd. He said it is *not* okay to kill a living being, period, regardless of mental state, good or ill. Do you not agree? Do we not torture ourselves over killing an insect in the Buddhist community. Is it not considered to *always* be akusala and carry negative kamma? Why is this so? > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, taking the life of another being necessarily involves some moments of akusala, and is one of the types of akusala kamma patha (i.e., can condition rebirth in a lower plane). Sure, but the question is whether only the mental factor causes the akusala and I am contending it is not. > > =============== > > What if I end the life of someone who is suffering, out of compassion? Is this considered kusala in Buddhism? I have a kusala mental state. Is it okay with Buddha if I kill someone out of love? What's the kamma in that case? > > =============== > > J: As far as I'm aware, there's no mention in the texts of the possibility of taking life with kusala. That's my point. It is akusala *regardless* of the intention and/or mental state. Best, Robert E. ================================= With metta, Howard "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." — _AN 6.63_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html#part-5) #113033 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs reality: Numbers & arithmetic operations nilovg Op 11-jan-2011, om 20:46 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Are numbers (1,2,3,... etc") concepts? > Do they exist, or are only conceptual ideas (perhaps false ones)? > > What about interaction... ------- N: As Ken H said: what is not naama or ruupa is concept. But I also wonder why you ask especially about numbers? A number does not have an unalterable characteristic that could be experienced. Nina. #113034 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. nilovg Dear Alex (sorry forgot to address you in my other post to you) Op 11-jan-2011, om 3:29 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > S: Kevin's discussion with KS and myself (#109607). Kevin had asked > >why the Buddha ad mentioned jhana "hundreds or thousands" of times > >if >there was no need to talk about jhana. KS replied by asking > >whether >among those who became enlightened, were there more who > did >so by >just developing vipassana or those who developed > vipassana >and > >samatha (to jhana levels). The answer is by > vipassana alone. ------- N: I found the sutta: S.I,191, (Vangisa suttas) pavaranasutta, Invitation. It is about five hundred arahats. The Buddha said: "There is naught, Saariputta, for which I blame these five hundred brethren, in deed or word. Of these brethren. sixty have threefold Lore, sixty have sixfold supernormal knowledge, sixty are emancipated in both ways, and the others are emancipated by insight [alone]." I looked at Ven. Bodhi's translation and he gives a note (his own, not from the commentary) that the last one means: without mastering aruupa jhaana. I remember discussions on this subject and I do not know what to add to this. -------- > > A:How do we know about what we need to reach Stream Entry? ------ N: This is in the suttas. Association with the right person, listening to the Dhamma, considering it, and applying it rightly. ------- > A: I do hope that the path is easier, and requires less hard work > than more work. There seemed to be plenty of "magga while cooking" > teachings, and it can have happened to some gifted people. But is > the easy path sufficient for those of us with lots of defilements? > It is true that some suttas talk about the possibility of awakening > while listening with the condition that there are no kamma and > defilement obstructions present. ------ N: As to these obstructions to enlightenment in that life: born without pa~n~naa, having committed a great crime. Harder or less hard: I do not think much about that. I just read about the Perfection of Patience: < When visible object appears, seeing-consciousness experiences it, and it can be known that there is no being, no person, no self. If we have no patience to be aware of the characteristic of the reality appearing at this moment, we cannot reach the further shore, that is, nibbna. If we do not have endurance with regard to lobha and dosa, defilements cannot be eliminated. If we lack patience we cannot reach the further shore, nibbna, we cannot penetrate the four noble Truths. Learning about the ten perfections will help us to investigate whether we accumulate the perfections which are still deficient, and if we see their value and significance there are conditions for them to grow and develop. We should be patient while we investigate and consider realities thoroughly, so that we acquire right understanding of them and practise in the right way. Without right understanding there are no conditions for the arising of right mindfulness which is aware of the characteristics of realities that appear. Khanti is endurance and restraint with regard to akusala citta which arises. If sati-sampajaa arises, the perfection of patience will become more refined. We need patience and endurance, because akusala citta arises often in daily life. ... Khanti pram, the perfection of patience, can develop when sati- sampajaa arises and knows the characteristic of the citta at that moment. If sati-sampajaa is aware of akusala citta there are conditions for the arising of kusala citta instead. A person may be in the habit of complaining, or of being bad-tempered, but if sati- sampajaa arises he can refrain from akusala and thus, the perfection of patience can further develop.> Is this hard or easy? --------- > A: One of the benefits of samatha is that it temporary suppresses > defilements, this gives wisdom the opportunity to really > contemplate with wisdom, rather than being blinded by the defilements. > Thus for some it may be helpful to do samatha before contemplation. > IMHO. ------- N: For the temporary suppression jhaana has to be attained, and for this one needs to accumulate a lot of skill, and also change one's lifestyle. One's usual life of liking pleasant objects. This may take a long, long time. One has to thoroughly know the cetasikas which are the jhaanafactors and distinguish them from each other. Rapture and happy feeling are very close, but they are different realities. Can we know the difference? If one through vipassanaa thoroughly studies one's defilements when they arise it is the way leading to the further shore. But it is not easy. I also read in the passage on patience: < Patience in our daily life is adhivsan khanti. The Pli word adhivasati means to inhabit (vso is habitation), and adhivsan khanti is acceptance and endurance with regard to our living conditions, our environment, the place where we live, thus, the dhamma of each moment. This can be, for example, a change of temperature which may be hot or cold. If sati-sampajaa does not arise, we may say, It is very hot, and then akusala citta is likely to have arisen already.> Another example. Talking on political murders. We may be indignant, upset about it. What about citta now? It is not my citta, but a dhamma arising because of conditions. Pa~n~naa can see the disadvantage of akusala citta. People will follow their inclinations as to samatha and vipassanaa and we cannot tell someone else what to do. Nina. #113035 From: Ken O Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Texts, was:The clansman.. ashkenn2k Dear Howard >----------------------------------------------- >Nibbana is not produced. >--------------------------------------------- KO: The question is how could one use unreal to realise the real. >------------------------------------------------- >No, it refers to what is enclosed by mind-and-body, i.e., conditioned >namas and rupas. >------------------------------------------------- KO: Self conceit and self view arise because of mind and body, Just like taking one appearance (body) or one's intellegience for eg if this person is a genious. So enclosed by the mind and body is the condition for the not just conceit, all other condition dhammas. That is why the statement "this is real" All this real is basically due to three misconceiving, conceit, cravng and ditthi as said in commentary of MN1 >------------------------------------------ >I have quoted the Buddha, and not material from Theravada or Mahayana. >------------------------------------------ KO: Yes what you are quoted is from Buddha. What I think whether these quotes meant dhammas are unreal and only NIbbana is real. Cheers Ken O #113036 From: Ken O Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... ashkenn2k Dear Rob E >> I am a little confused how sati can "experience" visible object >> separate from the moment of seeing. Through what means would the >> object be accessible to sati separately from seeing? I would think >> that sati would only become aware of the object *in* the act of >> seeing, at that moment. I mean, the visible object does not have a >> citta in contact with it until seeing takes place, does it? And >> wouldn't sati be a cetasika of a citta that is aware of seeing the >> visible object? >> KO: at the moment of seeing, there is no sati, only the seven universal cetasikas. Sati could only arise at the javana stage of the sense process of seeing. for the whole sense process, the object is visible object and not otherwise. Citta is the one that experience an object, sati arise with citta can known the object since citta already experience it. Even if one is mindful of an object, does not mean panna will arise. Panna only arise when there is understanding of not self in that object. One example is that one could understand seeing sees and accompany by the understanding that I cannot see or there is no I in seeing. Mindfullness of an object does not guaranttee salvation because mindfullness only mindful of an object and does not know the nature of not self in an object Cheers Ken O #113037 From: Ken O Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:47 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 1. ashkenn2k Dear Nina and Han I like this discussion of Latent Tendencies, just that I am far away from my reading on this topic. If you dont mind, tell me what are the matters to discuss and for clarifying. I could put in my two cents cheers Ken O >Dear Nina, > >> [Nina]: Yes, but here is explained that at the moment of enlightenment present >>defilements are not eradicated, and I find this very clear. > >[Han]: Right! But even if he does not abandon past defilements, future >defilements, and presently-arisen defilements, there is development of the path, >there is realization of its fruition, there is convergence of ideas. > > >In paragraph (11) there is the following passage: >He does not abandon past defilements and he does not abandon future defilements >and he does not abandon presently-arisen defilements. >If he does not abandon past defilements and he does not abandon future >defilements, and he does not abandon presently-arisen defilements, then there is >no development of the path, there is no realization of its fruition, there is no >convergence of ideas? > >That is not so. There is development of the path, there is realization of its >fruition, there is convergence of ideas! >In what way? > >Na hi atiite kilese pajahati, na anaagate kilese pajahati, na paccuppanne kilese >pajahatiiti. > >Ha~nci na atiite kilese pajahati, na anaagate [pe] na paccuppanne kilese >pajahati, > >tena hi natthi maggabhaavanaa, natthi phalasacchikiriyaa, natthi >kilesappahaana.m, natthi dhammaabhisamayoti? > >Atthi maggabhaavanaa, atthi phalasacchikiriyaa, atthi kilesappahaana.m, atthi >dhammaabhisamayo. > >Yathaa katha.m viya? >---------- >Han: The answer to the question: "In what way?" is in paragraph (12). > >Respectfully, >Han > > > #113038 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Texts, was:The clansman.. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/12/2011 12:06:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard >----------------------------------------------- >Nibbana is not produced. >--------------------------------------------- KO: The question is how could one use unreal to realise the real. -------------------------------------------------------- This depends on what one means by "real". Let me explain: The content of experience varies. At times it is what we call visual, at times a sort of bodily sensation, at times auditory, and so on. I don't deny this. These categories are mind-made, however. Not only that, taking warmth as an example, a particular instance of what we call "warmth" isn't uniform and has no definable beginning or ending, and, so, viewing it as an individual thing, "a rupa," is a convention. The world doesn't come to us in precise, separate packets; it is thinking only that does that. (Recall my ocean-wave analogy.) ---------------------------------------------------------- >------------------------------------------------- >No, it refers to what is enclosed by mind-and-body, i.e., conditioned >namas and rupas. >------------------------------------------------- KO: Self conceit and self view arise because of mind and body, Just like taking one appearance (body) or one's intellegience for eg if this person is a genious. So enclosed by the mind and body is the condition for the not just conceit, all other condition dhammas. That is why the statement "this is real" All this real is basically due to three misconceiving, conceit, cravng and ditthi as said in commentary of MN1 >------------------------------------------ >I have quoted the Buddha, and not material from Theravada or Mahayana. >------------------------------------------ KO: Yes what you are quoted is from Buddha. What I think whether these quotes meant dhammas are unreal and only NIbbana is real. -------------------------------------------------------- You mean what you question or deny, right? So, we disagree! :-) --------------------------------------------------------- Cheers Ken O ================================== With metta, Howard /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) #113039 From: Ken O Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? ashkenn2k Dear Rob E >> >> (112824) >> > If I help someone who is suffering and my motives are bad, sure that will >>spoil the "goodness" of the act for me. But isn't it still kusala that the >>suffering was ended in that case? I am not sure that there is not an aspect of >>kusala even to an akusala motive, if the act has a positive consequence. I will > >>say that I am unsure about this. >> > >> > What if I end the life of someone who is suffering, out of compassion? >>Is >> >>this considered kusala in Buddhism? I have a kusala mental state. Is it okay >>with Buddha if I kill someone out of love? What's the kamma in that case? >> > =============== KO: At the moment of deed, if the volition is bad, then is it bad. Thinking of the deed as good after because one end other suffering, is another moment. thinking of one bad action cause less pain to others, does not mean it is good. Just like some believe in compassionate killing. To Thervada, as long as there is an act of killing, that is the act of bad deed. Even if one think one has help the other guy to lessen his suffering, does not negate the fact there was an act of killing. And grief is the near enemy of compassion. Some mix up their compassion with grief. When one cannot bear the suffering of others, it could be grief and not compassion, And grief is dosa rooted. thinking grief as a moral value or an act of compassion, one commit the act. which in the end are just all akusala. Cheers Ken O #113040 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:09 pm Subject: Re: Concepts vs reality: Numbers & arithmetic operations kenhowardau Hi Alex, <. . .> A: > I knew that. I just wanted to know what others think and get the discussion started. > > > That numbers are concepts, and are different from realities, brings certain questions like: > > 1) "isn't the amount of cittas happening per second, or their duration a conceptual statement?" > > 2) And by being conceptual, does it make it any less real? > -------------------------------- KH: I'm with you on this one, Alex. I have often argued with Robert E and others that the anicca characteristic of dhammas is not a conclusion drawn from observations over time. The anicca characteristic is a property that lies inherently in the dhamma itself. Ken H #113041 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, > N: I found the sutta: S.I,191, (Vangisa suttas) pavaranasutta, > Invitation. That sutta says that majority didn't have super special meditative attainments, sure. But how do we know to which category do we apply? Furthermore, even dry insight could require deliberate and hard cultivation. > > A:How do we know about what we need to reach Stream Entry? > ------ > N: This is in the suttas. Association with the right person, > listening to the Dhamma, considering it, and applying it rightly. > ------- And what exactly does the last limb (practice Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma) mean? Even if it means dry-insight, or even contemplating, it is still something *to be done*. > N: For the temporary suppression jhaana has to be attained, and >for > this one needs to accumulate a lot of skill, A: Or "access concentration". > and also change one's > lifestyle. One's usual life of liking >pleasant objects. This may take a long, long time. One has to >thoroughly know the cetasikas which are the jhaanafactors and >distinguish them from each other. IMHO as long as one postpones doing something, it will never be accomplished and will always remain "in the future", which of course never comes, as it is always "in the future". Thank you for your wonderful post. With metta, Alex #113042 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:30 pm Subject: The Scattered Mind. . . bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Curing the agitated Restlessness and Regret! Noticing Restlessness-&-Regret arise can make it fade away: When Restlessness-&-Regret is present, the bhikkhu notes & understands: There is Restlessness-&-Regret in me, while when Restlessness-&-Regret is absent, then he notes & understands: No Restlessness-&-Regret is in me. He also understands well how Restlessness-&-Regret arise. He understands how to leave behind any arisen Restlessness-&-Regret, and he understands how left Restlessness-&-Regret will not arise again. MN 10 What is the feeding cause that makes Restlessness-&-Regret arise? There are unrest, unsettledness, nervous unease, agitation & anxiety, often giving irrational & unwise attention to such states, this is the feeding cause of the arising of Restlessness-&-Regret, & the feeding cause of worsening and exacerbation of already arisen Restlessness-&-Regret. SN 46:51 What is the starving cause that makes Restlessness-&-Regret cease? There is the mental state of serene tranquillity, calm, quietude, stillness, imperturbability, peace, frequently giving rational & wise attention to this exquisite mental state, is the starving cause for the non-arising of absent Restlessness-&-Regret, & the starving cause for the dampening and calming of Restlessness-&-Regret, that has already been stirred up. SN 46:51 Advantageous reflections whenever Restlessness-&-Regret is provoked: When the mind is restless, it is the proper time for cultivating the following factors of enlightenment: Tranquillity , Concentration and Equanimity , because an agitated mind can easily be quietened by them. SN 46:53 Restlessness-&-Regret is like Slavery: Just as when a man is a slave, not independent, but dependent on others, unable to go where he likes, exactly & even so is restlessness since it forces one into unwanted activity & destroys any ease & calm. Later he is set free from slavery, is now independent, no longer dependent, a freeman who can go where he wants. And at that he rejoices, is glad at heart... Such is also the blissful freedom from restlessness. DN 2 Deliberately Directing to a Conscious and Clever Centre of Concentration: Herein, Ananda, a Bhikkhu attends to this single Focus: This is Real, this is Supreme, namely: The Stilling of all mental Construction, The Calming of all Restless Activity, The Fading of all Concern and Anxiety, The Cooling of all Temptation and Urge, The Ending of all Longing and Craving, The Exhaustion of all Fuel of Becoming, Ceasing, Peace, Bliss, Freedom, Nibbna AN V 319 DOING GOOD = NO REGRET! Here and now the good-doer rejoices! :-) Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of good reaps only Joy & ease... So both here and beyond, the wise with merit well done, enjoys the purity of own prior good behaviour. Dhammapada 15 DOING BAD = MUCH REGRET! Here and now the bad-doer suffers... :-( Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of wrong reaps only pain and regret... So both here and beyond, the evil wrongdoing fool suffers the painful results of prior bad behaviour. Dhammapada 16 Restlessness-&-regret is followed by worry, anxiety, agitation and attention deficit! <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #113043 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:41 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > >S: ...kusala can arise anytime, any place at all - in a "nice yoga session", in a "deep relaxation", anytime. > > > >R: ...and perhaps can even be affected by "calming bodily formations..." > .... > S: See my last message and Pt's quote. "The tranquillizing of the body is tranquillity of the body (kaayassa passambhana.m kaayapassaddhi.)....And here the body means the three [mental] aggregates, feeling, [perception and formations] (see Dhs 40)........They should be regarded as opposed to the defilements of agitation, etc., which cause unpeacefulness in the [mental] body and in consciousness." I don't want to seem unduly skeptical without knowing exactly what this references and whether everyone agrees on that interpretation of that verse, but if you have to put [mental] in front of body every time it appears to clarify what it's saying, it seems to me there's a chance that someone is imposing that interpretation on the original statement. Is it fair to say that it is not always the case that kaya refers to mental body? Is the kaya in this passage preceded by "mental" anywhere in Pali, or is it just explained in the Vis, and is it with reference to the satipatthana sutta or something else? Sorry for the rambling question...just trying to get my bearings. > >>S:....:I said that, actually, I had meant understanding and accepting whatever arises now - the greeds, the anxieties, all kinds of experiences, not just calm and good. I'm not sure that bit went down so well and I hadn't got close to mentioning seeing and visible object! Maybe next year! > > > >R: Like I said, a fellow trouble-maker! Actually I agree very much with that view - to be open to seeing whatever arises. > ... > S: Yes, the detachment, truthfulness and non-selection are very important. Not just seeing what we'd like to see! I like the way you put that. It is a good concise statement of what is involved in "raw awareness," seeing what is really there unfiltered. > >R:Personally I get a kind of [sick?] thrill out of seeing the negative stuff that comes up, because I feel like awareness is in working order when that happens. I meant to mention here that I've been much more aware lately of how frequently "hatred" arises in the form of momentary rage or frustration in my life. I like to think of it as being "a little annoyed," but I've been getting a closer look lately and at the exact moment I can sometimes see that it is much greater than that. Somebody brushes against me and doesn't say "excuse me" and internally I get momentarily enraged. On the outside I behave perfectly nicely, although I might occasionally make a comment under my breath, but internally it feels explosive for that moment. > .... > S: A good example of how we never know what will arise next, depending on conditions only. Also, a good example of how we have no idea of our own cittas most the time, even less so about the others. As you say, you may be behaving "perfectly nicely" whilst momentarily enraged! It's good that there is the restraint from speaking out harshly at such a time. I hadn't thought of that, but yes that is good. > >Seeing that, my reaction is to get excited about it: "Wow! It's one of the three poisons and I saw it up close!" I want to get my camera or something and photograph it. In any case, it is a very different perspective than trying to hide or rationalize those reactions when they come up, as awareness gets more comfortable seeing all the things that arise and not taking it personally. I've also become aware that I'm really anxious - sometimes *very* anxious about normal situations - a much greater percentage of the time than I used to acknowledge. Isn't awareness fun? ;-) > .... > S: I can relate to all your examples. > > As I said to Han, we all have anxiety/worry lists and forget that it's really only the present understanding and awareness that is important. > > Of course, we're always thinking in terms of situations and people as being the problem, but really it's always the lobha, dosa and moha. Taking responsibility for reactions instead of blaming them on situations and people is tough, but a good sign of maturity. Can't say I can do that a large percentage of the time, but even a little growth in awareness is helpful. > Often there's a real lack of patience and understanding of others. That's why I appreciate the reminder about the aspect of patience as being forbearance and forgiveness as others. > .... > > Yes, the longer I live the more opportunities I'll have to experience the difficulties and breed more mindfulness. It's a win-win situation. > ... > S: Yes, living for opportunities for mindfulness and wisdom to grow! > ... > > Thank you very much; the same to you and Jon, and have fun in your travels, and with K. Sujin. A very happy - and mindful - 2011 to you! > ... > S: Very kind as always! :) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113044 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:14 am Subject: Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 6-jan-2011, om 7:01 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > > I am a little confused how sati can "experience" visible object > > separate from the moment of seeing. Through what means would the > > object be accessible to sati separately from seeing? I would think > > that sati would only become aware of the object *in* the act of > > seeing, at that moment. I mean, the visible object does not have a > > citta in contact with it until seeing takes place, does it? And > > wouldn't sati be a cetasika of a citta that is aware of seeing the > > visible object? > > > > > > ---------- > N: I understand your question. You wonder how visible object could be > separated from seeing. Whenever there is seeing visible object > appears, and if there were no seeing it could not appear. They are > both present, the naama and the ruupa, but only one of them can be > object of awareness, only one at a time, so that pa~n~naa can > investigate their true nature. I think the statement above helps to explain it: "They are both present,...but only one of them can be object of awareness...at a time..." To use an analogy, it would be similar if I wanted to look at the way my camera takes a picture. At the moment I take the picture, the camera does certain things, and the subject of the photo is captured. Obviously the camera and the person or object in the picture are two different things, and they come together in the picture. If I wanted to look at how the subject appears, I look at the photo. If I want to see how the camera is doing its job, I have to look at the camera. They are both working together, but I can only focus on one at a time, or investigate one at a time. I know it's not a perfect analogy, but it gives an idea of how first one could look at the rupa and see its characteristic, and then at the seeing, and look at its characteristic, to see each one clearly, one at a time. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #113045 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: sabhaava, was The clansman... epsteinrob Hi Nina. Thanks for your notes on this subject. I enjoyed the addition of details. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > The Visuddhimagga (XX, 96) explains about the arising and falling > away of nma and rpa: > > its arising. When it arises it does not come from any heap or store; > and when it ceases, it does not go in any direction. There is nowhere > any depository in the way of heap or store or hoard of what has > ceased. But just as there is no store, prior to its arising, of the > sound that arises when a lute is played, nor does it come from any > store when it arises, nor does it go in any direction when it ceases, > nor does it persist as a store when it has ceased (``Kindred > Sayings'' IV, 197), but on the contrary, not having been, it is > brought into being owing to the lute, the lute's neck, and the man's > appropriate effort, and having been, it vanishes--so too all material > and immaterial states (rpa and nma), not having been, are brought > into being, having been, they vanish.> Aside for being evocative of the reality of momentary phenomena, it is also very pretty writing. :-) I like the lute analogy. It reminds me of a statement of the late saxaphonist Eric Dolphy, which he recorded on one of his albums: "Music, after it's over, it's gone in the air. You can never capture it again." I wonder if the statement in the Visudhimagga was in part arguing against the Yogacara idea of the alayavijnana - the "storehouse consciousness" which holds the seeds or tendencies that have developed and creates vipaka in the future? From Britannica onlne: "That storage consciousness contains all the impressions of previous experiences (vasanas, "perfumings"), which form the seeds (bija) of future karmic action..." Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #113046 From: "revtriple" Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:19 am Subject: Do the "god's" exist? revtriple Is there a sutta in the Pali Canon Tipataka where Buddha is asked whether or not the gods actually exist and he answers that YES they do......But that they are within the realm of Samsara and are therefore impermanent? Are they simply metaphors? It does not seem this way to me....... #113047 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. nilovg Dear Alex, (and Han at the end), Op 13-jan-2011, om 1:18 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > That sutta says that majority didn't have super special meditative > attainments, sure. But how do we know to which category do we apply? ------- N: We can only find out ourselves. In what situation do we live, do we have a busy life? What are our inclinations. Those are questions we have to asnwer ourselves. --------- > > A>Furthermore, even dry insight could require deliberate and hard > cultivation. ------- N: Right understanding is essential. What is this insight, what are the objects of which right understanding has to be developed. When and where? Right understanding will condition perseverance, courage, energy, not giving up the task. -------- > > > > A:How do we know about what we need to reach Stream Entry? > > ------ > > N: This is in the suttas. Association with the right person, > > listening to the Dhamma, considering it, and applying it rightly. > > ------- > > A:And what exactly does the last limb (practice Dhamma in > accordance with the Dhamma) mean? ------- N: Your question is very much to the point. Dammaanudhamma- pa.tipannaa, those who practise a dhamma consistent with the dhamma. This is explained in the commentary to the mahaa-parinibbaana sutta, "The Buddha's Last Days" (Ch 3, PTS): a note from a tiika: Puraa.natiika on suma"ngalavilaasinii: N: The nine lokuttara dhammas: nibbaana and the eight lokuttara cittas that experience it. Four magga-cittas and four phala-cittas of each of the four stages of enlightenment. The Text: footnote from tiika and Udaana commentary: ----- Text: Footnote tiikas: According to the Puraanatiika, anudhamma seems to refer to such an austere precept as wanting little, which is suitable for purifying knowledge and vision (Udaana co 327). ------- Now for this remark I would like to hear some input from you and Han. Why especially wanting little? Perhaps just being interested in the Dhamma may lead to it that one will be less interested in other things? I am not inclined to see this as an austerity, more like a natural course. I do not know whether the word austerity is from the translator. ------- > > A: Even if it means dry-insight, or even contemplating, it is still > something *to be done*. -------- N: As long as it is remembered, not by a self but according to conditions. ------- > > > N: For the temporary suppression jhaana has to be attained, and > >for > this one needs to accumulate a lot of skill, > > A: Or "access concentration". ------ N: Right, these are only some moments before appana arises. And also some meditation subjects only lead to access concentration. ------ > > A: > and also change one's > lifestyle. One's usual life of liking > >pleasant objects. This may take a long, long time. One has to > >thoroughly know the cetasikas which are the jhaanafactors and > >distinguish them from each other. > > IMHO as long as one postpones doing something, it will never be > accomplished and will always remain "in the future", which of > course never comes, as it is always "in the future". ------ N: I quite agree about not postponing. There is always this moment. Do insist with your good questions and remarks. ------ Nina. #113048 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Texts, was:The clansman.. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 10-jan-2011, om 15:23 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: Translations differ. So we may read texts in a different way. I > take > it that ignorant people cling to what is seen and conceive wrongly, > but the Tathagata does not. > ------------------------------------------- > But, Nina, that is not what is said here. Clinging isn't discussed > here. It is construing of objects sensed, objects not sensed, and > objects > to-be-sensed that is denied, and a senser is denied. > -------------------------------------------- > N: Conceiving things wrongly is already clinging. Di.t.thi, wrong > view, or conceit arise with cittas rooted in lobha. They are forms > of clinging. -------- > N: In Pali: ma~n~nati, which can be translated as conceiving. The > Buddha > does not conceive wrongly. > -------------------------------------------- > He does not conceive of things sensed, unsensed, or to-be-sensed, and > he does not conceive of a senser. He does not reify! > --------------------------------------------- > N: In the "Root of Existence" , a translation with its commentary > by Ven. Bodhi, the term ma~n~nati is analysed. He conceives himself > as earth. Many ways of wrongly conceiving, ma~n~nati. As Ken O > explained, we can have lobha for objects and also we can cling with > wrong view or conceit. NOt all these ways are covered by reify, I > think. ------- Nina. #113049 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Texts, was:The clansman.. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 10-jan-2011, om 15:42 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > H: The Buddha says that sense-door objects are, indeed, unreal: ------ N: They have no substance or core, but they are real, fleeting dhammas. Visible object is the object of seeing, seeing could not arise without having an object, visible object, nor without eyesense, another ruupa. Contact that accompanies seeing contacts visible object so that it can be seen. Contact conditions feeling. All these are realities. We can prove this by considering them when they arise and sometimes being aware of them, even beginning to be aware of them. This is the beginning of the Path. We can see all these suttas you quote not as pointers to what is still far off, but as pointers to be aware now, develolp understanding of what is right at hand, so that the truth will be known. ------- H:/He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: > "This is all unreal," such a monk gives up the here and the > beyond, just as > a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ ------- N: As I said before with regard to this text: what we take for the world is not real. Naama and ruupa are real. ------- > > > H: As for anger, many instances of mental states are similar and > > identified (labeled) as "anger," but it is a convention to do so. > > They differ from > > each other in intensity and in quality. > ----- > N: Correct, many shades and degrees of anger, but all of these are > the cetasika dosa which dislikes an object. That is its > characteristic, it does not matter how we name it, nobody can change > its characteristic. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > H: Identification of phenomena that differ is a matter of > convention and > conceptualization. > ---------------------------------------------------------- N: The Buddha did not teach convention in the Abhidhamma. > ------ > > H: Moreover, an instance of what we > > call "anger" rises, peaks, and falls as an emotional wave and > > without precise > > beginning or ending. > ------ > N: Through insight the arising and falling away can be penetrated > very precisely. I like Ken O's insistence that understanding > realities has to be very precise, that the dhamma is very precise. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > H: You haven't addressed here what you quoted me as saying, Nina. > ---------------------------------------------------------- N: You say that anger rises, and what arises is real, not imagination or just convention. The waves you use as a simile I do not find precise enough, that is why I jumped in with precision. I am rather thinking of the insight knowledge which knows exactly the arising of a dhamma and its falling away, within the briefest moment. But before this can be realized naama has to be clearly distinguished from ruupa. It all has to be very precise, very clear. ------ Nina. #113050 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:30 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 1. nilovg Dear Ken O, I appreciate your interest. This is a long treatise in Thai I am translating and Han helps me with his suggestions and by giving me the Pali texts. We are now dealing with texts from the Patisambidhamagga. The English translation is not always so clear and then it is good to compare with the Pali. The term convergence is used which is the translation of abhisamaya, which pertains, as I understand, to the moment of enlightenment. Some terms are rendered very shortly and I was wondering what was meant, like: there is convergence of originating, which is right acting, samu.t.thaanaabhisamayo sammaakammanto. But I will not try too much to understand each term, so long as I understand the most important things. The Thai does not focus on each term, but mainly on: what is eradicated at what moment, pointing to the latent tendencies. Nina. Op 12-jan-2011, om 18:47 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > I like this discussion of Latent Tendencies, just that I am far > away from my > reading on this topic. If you dont mind, tell me what are the > matters to > discuss and for clarifying. I could put in my two cents #113051 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:51 pm Subject: Re: Do the "god's" exist? nidive Hi revtriple. > Are they simply metaphors? It does not seem this way to me....... I believe that the "gods" are real. In fact, I believe they actually live freely in the skies above us. There are people who have used the solar obliteration technique with their digital camcorders and recorded unusual objects that can't be seen with the naked eye in the infrared range. The "gods" are masters of visual cloaking techniques. Sometimes they uncloak their flying vehicles and they become visible to us as UFOs. http://www.youtube.com/user/norroy08# I also believe that some of the higher "gods" are the protectors of the human and animal race. It seems that in 2010, the Sun entered into an unusual state that warrants an intervention by these higher "gods". They have spacecraft as huge as the size of the Earth orbiting near to the Sun. I believe that these higher "gods" are protecting the Earth from some deadly coronal mass ejections from the Sun that would be detrimental to life on Earth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KucBPnoKNpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1l4XkJwPDg&feature=related Swee Boon #113052 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:06 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 1. ashkenn2k Dear Nina In the The Expositor,og 76 and 77 under the Analysis of Terms there are a few rendering of samaya, the combination of abhi with samaya has some Whatever good bein the present world, Whatever good be in the world to come - He only is called wise who has the skill to compass abhisamay of good in such passages samaya means acquisition <<'By the right abhisamaya of conceit he made an end of Ill" - in such passage samaya means 'elimination'. The fact of ill has the sense of oppression, of being conditioned, of burning, of reversibility, of penetrability (abhisamayattho) - in such passage samaya means "penetration' I believe Namoli translation is based on the meaning of samaya as harmony of antecedents which shows the occurrence from many causes. Many causes towards the production of a common result. Cheers Ken O > > >Dear Ken O, >I appreciate your interest. >This is a long treatise in Thai I am translating and Han helps me >with his suggestions and by giving me the Pali texts. We are now >dealing with texts from the Patisambidhamagga. The English >translation is not always so clear and then it is good to compare >with the Pali. The term convergence is used which is the translation >of abhisamaya, which pertains, as I understand, to the moment of >enlightenment. Some terms are rendered very shortly and I was >wondering what was meant, like: there is convergence of originating, >which is right acting, samu.t.thaanaabhisamayo sammaakammanto. But I >will not try too much to understand each term, so long as I >understand the most important things. The Thai does not focus on each >term, but mainly on: what is eradicated at what moment, pointing to >the latent tendencies. >Nina. #113053 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:44 pm Subject: The Uncreated Singular Sameness! bhikkhu5 Friends: How is the Unconditioned State? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, the absence of all greed, all hate, and all ignorance: This, friends, is called the Uncreated, the Unconditioned, the Uninclined, the Unattracted, the Unmanifested, the Infinite, the absolute Freedom, the Further Shore, the Subtle, the Inconceivable, the Ageless, the Unity, the Permanent, the Beyond of all diversity, the Peaceful, the Deathless..., the Sublime Sameness, the Wonderful, the Sweet Safety, the Fantastic, the Sorrowless, the Refuge, the Unoppressed, the Detached, the Release, the Island..., the Shelter..., the Final State..., the Highest Bliss: Nibbna... Samyutta Nikya. 43:12-44 There exists indeed, Bhikkhus, that which is unborn, unbecome, uncreated, that which is neither caused, nor conditioned For if there were not, Bhikkhus, that which is unborn, unbecome, uncreated, that which is uncaused & unconditioned, there could not be known here the absolute escape from that, which is born, from that which is become, from that which is created, from that which is conditioned... However, since there indeed exists, this still sublime state, which is unborn, which is unbecome, which is uncreated, and absolutely unconditioned, there can therefore right now be made known the complete escape from all that, which is born, from that, which is created, from that, which is conditioned... Itivuttaka: 43 <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #113054 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:39 pm Subject: Re: Do the "god's" exist? ksheri3 Hi Swee Boon, Take my confrontation with a grain of salt please. > In fact, I believe they actually live freely in the skies above us. There are people who have used the solar obliteration technique with their digital camcorders and recorded unusual objects that can't be seen with the naked eye in the infrared range. The "gods" are masters of visual cloaking techniques. Sometimes they uncloak their flying vehicles and they become visible to us as UFOs. > colette: Why are you so fixated on the cognition of these alleged "gods" as being DEPENDENT UPON "Eye Consciousness"? Why does a "god" have to be "visual"? What happens if the "being" of this "god" has nothing what so ever to do with the "eye consciousness" and is "ear consciousness" of "body consciousness"? <...> ------------------------------- > I also believe that some of the higher "gods" are the protectors of the human and animal race. colette only a few seconds. IF they protect then how do you explain Queensland's plees for rain and water being deluged by such warm New Zeeland like conditions? gotta go, toodles, colette <...> #113055 From: "revtriple" Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:59 pm Subject: "gods" sutta revtriple Is there a sutta in the Pali Canon Tipataka where Buddha is asked whether or not the gods actually exist and he answers that YES they do......But that they are within the realm of Samsara and are therefore impermanent? Thank You !!! #113056 From: han tun Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. hantun1 Dear Nina and Alex, Text: Footnote tiikas: According to the Puraanatiika, anudhamma seems to refer to such an austere precept as wanting little, which is suitable for purifying knowledge and vision (Udaana co 327). ------- Now for this remark I would like to hear some input from you and Han. Why especially wanting little? Perhaps just being interested in the Dhamma may lead to it that one will be less interested in other things? I am not inclined to see this as an austerity, more like a natural course. I do not know whether the word austerity is from the translator. ------- [Han] I do not have the Commentary and tiikas under reference. So I do not know what is mentioned there about "wanting little". But in Visuddhimagga, Chapter II The Ascetic Practices, 1. [59] Now while a meditator is engaged in the pursuit of virtue, he should set about undertaking the ascetic practices in order to perfect those special qualities of fewness of wishes, contentment, etc., by which the virtue of the kind already described is cleansed. For when his virtue is thus washed clean of stains by the waters of such special qualities as fewness of wishes, contentment, effacement, seclusion, dispersal, energy, and modest needs, it will become quite purified; and his vows will succeed as well. And so, when his whole behaviour has been purified by the special quality of blameless virtue and vows and he has become established in the [first] three of the ancient noble ones' heritages, he may become worthy to attain to the fourth called 'delight in development' (A.ii,27). We shall therefore begin the explanation of the ascetic practices. 1. Idaani yehi appicchataasantu.t.thitaadiihi gu.nehi vuttappakaarassa siilassa vodaana.m hoti, te gu.ne sampaadetu.m yasmaa samaadinnasiilena yoginaa dhuta"ngasamaadaana.m kaatabba.m. Eva~nhissa appicchataasantu.t.thitaa- sallekhapavivekaapacayaviiriyaarambhasubharataadigu.nasalilavikkhaalitamala.m siila~nceva suparisuddha.m bhavissati, vataani ca sampajjissanti. Iti anavajjasiilabbatagu.naparisuddhasabbasamaacaaro poraa.ne ariyava.msattaye pati.t.thaaya catutthassa bhaavanaaraamataasa"nkhaatassa ariyava.msassa adhigamaaraho bhavissati. Tasmaa dhuta"ngakatha.m aarabhissaama. ------- Han: According to the above paragraph, "appicchataa" (fewness of wishes or wanting little) and "santu.t.thitaa" (contentment) are among the basis of the Ascetic Practices, which would make one to become worthy to attain to the fourth [of the ancient noble ones' heritages] called 'delight in development' (bhaavanaaraamataasa"nkhaatassa ariyava.msassa adhigamaaraho bhavissati). Respectfully, Han #113057 From: A T Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:27 am Subject: thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc truth_aerator Hello all, Buddha taught the gradual path. The path implies that it leads to a certain destination. His teaching IMHO is pragmatic path gradually leading to cessation of more and more stress. IMHO the gradual path means that his teaching are meant to be followed in a certain order, and the later stages are build on top of the previous stages. From the perspective of higher stages, lower stages can be incomplete. But they are necessary to get to higher stages nonetheless. In MN24 the path is likened to 7 relay chariots. One chariot gets one to the next, and the last chariot (Purity in terms of knowledge & vision) is for Nibbāna. While it is true that this purification is the proximate to Nibbāna, one doesn’t just jump to it. “purity in terms of virtue is simply for the sake of purity in terms of mind. Purity in terms of mind is simply for the sake of purity in terms of view. Purity in terms of view is simply for the sake of purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity. Purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision is simply for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging. And it's for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One." – MN24 Ven. TB transl. While it is true that each of the relay chariots needs to be let go off to get to the next one, before this occurs one must attach to the chariot or else one would fall off and don’t get to the next chariot. However one must relinquish the hold at an appropriate moment in order to get to the next chariot. It may be that careful patience is the quickest way, and that one shouldn't try to jump to the most advanced stages without former steps being well accomplished. It is also probably true that one shouldn't use insights attained at higher stages to explain the initial stages. The Buddha often compared His path to be like a raft used for crossing the flood (MN22, SN35.197). He has taught the path in sīla->samādhi->paññā order. His order of development probably had a very good and practical reason for being such. Jumping into wisdom of not-self before strong restraint of coarse and medium defilements could actually be detrimental to some people. Some could and have argued that “If there is no Self, then by whom is kamma is done, and what no self can affect”? Or to put it more directly, “if there is no Self, then there is no Killer and no victim that is killed. So what is so bad about killing?”. Or some may say that since there is no control, one can’t stop unwholesome qualities from arising. Fortunately for most people it doesn’t go as far. But still some may use Anatta as a justification for not putting the effort at restraining even the weaker unwholesome qualities. It could be good to restraint unwholesome qualities even if it requires building up a responsible sense of self. When this “responsible sense of self” has developed a habit of restraining unwholesome tendencies and of weakening them, maybe then it could be a good idea to dismiss “responsible sense of self”. This is done ONLY after it has done its job, of developing skillful habit of avoiding gross unwholesome actions. Not-Self teaching does have it’s place, but it is not universally appropriate. In MN#2 “there is no Self” is inappropriate reflection (at least at certain stages). In SN44.10 the Buddha refused to answer the untimely questions “Is there a Self” and “there is no Self”? for those who were not yet ready. It is also very interesting that in the main suttas the Buddha didn’t say “characteristics (lakkhaṇa) of not-self/anicca/dukkha”. Anattalakkhaṇa is mentioned only once as part of sutta title (anattalakkhaṇasuttaṃ that is also called Pañcavaggiya suttaṃ in another version of sutta-pitaka). But if we search for perception (or recognition) of anicca, dukkha, anatta (aniccasaññā, dukkhasaññā, anattasaññā) then we find plenty of them. Perception of anicca/dukkha/anatta implies a usage, a method and the path, rather than simple ontological teaching (which is true also) of what is. Perhaps one is to actively apply “this is anicca” to every phenomena (ex: as taught in MN152) to develop the mind’s response to the sense data cognized by the faculties (indriya), rather than just accept the teaching as statement of truth, and leave it at that. It is possible that we should NOT take teachings out of context and apply them indiscriminately without the sense of appropriateness and time. Maybe wisdom needs to be appropriate for the stage one at, and maybe one should try to use wisdom on the level of an Arahant to enter the path of stream entry. Before you polish the piece of wood, one needs to cut it using saw and do a lot of preliminary work before polishing with a very fine cloth. If one were to use the polishing cloth too early, it would be wasted. Maybe same is with no-control, etc. Ex: Maybe it is good to treat all that has occurred as “it has happened the only way it could ever happen given those conditions and it is all beyond control” to counter remorse & regret (or conceit) , but when it comes to right now or near to the future, a wholesome and responsible sense of self that cares for the outcomes should be used to attempt at restraining bad deeds and to do good deeds. The nature of the mind is such that it is going to do something, and if it is not going to do good – then it will do bad. IMHO restraining the kilesas is a good action. Another example: Teaching on Kamma and its results. One monk took the phrase (all things are stressful) out of context and indiscriminately inferred that even good kamma leads to stress (MN136). While it is true that ultimately all things are stressful, this is very advanced teaching that may backfire for some if used too early without the required preliminary steps being completed. Some may use this as an excuse not to do good kamma since it still leads to stress. What should not be forgotten is that the path is gradual, and it is not the usual case that one goes from 100% dukkha to 0% dukkha. Just like a person doesn’t get to the top of the staircase by skipping intermediate steps, same is here. There are intermediate steps that may be required to be stepped on in order to get to the top of the staircase. Good kamma is a peg with which one removes the dart of bad kamma. Then when bad kamma is removed by doing good kamma, one may eventually remove the conceit of self doing good kamma. So ultimately one no longer does any kamma. The Kamma for wisdom is to ask wise monks questions like “'What is wholesome, venerable sir? What is unwholesome? What is blamable? What is blameless? What should be cultivated? What should not be cultivated? What, by my doing it, will be long for my harm and suffering? Or what, by my doing it, will be long for my welfare and happiness?'” (MN135). Please take a note of this, and please keep in mind the down to earth practicality of such questions. One doesn’t start with metaphysical questions, but with practical questions. Eventually when a certain teaching has been used to the fullest, and when it has outlived its usefulness, a more advanced teaching could be used (that at the first glance may seem to reject the former teaching). It is interesting that the highest truth is not the metaphysical teaching, but experiential teaching of reaching Nibbāna. In Patodasuttaṃ (AN4.12.2 or AN 4.113) paramatthasaccaṃ (or paramasaccaṃ) is the experience of Nibbāna, and this experience is not the –idea- of Nibbāna, but actual non-verbal experience “with the body”. So the suttas do seem to teach that highest truth is not some metaphysical abstract teaching that is more factually true then some ordinary teaching, but that this is a direct “bodily” experience of Nibbāna. Pahitatto kāyena ceva paramasaccaṃ sacchikaroti, paññāya ca ativijjha passati. The end (Nibbāna) is not the path (noble 8fold path). The path, is conditioned, and is just like a raft to get to unconditioned Nibbāna (the other shore). It is interesting that the Buddha had great foresight when he said that N8P brings one to Nibbāna, it doesn’t cause or create it. For how could unconditioned be ever created? This misunderstanding was the cause of logical arguments by heterodox Mahayanists against any kind of development (unconditioned cannot be created by any type of development). Fortunately the path does not create the goal. So it can include useful means that may not be exact as the goal to be reached. For example: Desire is required to be able to train hard to get to Arhatship. Without it, one will simply not exert oneself hard enough on the path (SN51.15) and will not be motivated enough to counteract the kilesas – which are very strong. But once the destination is reached, desire is abandoned. In another sutta, Ananda teaches the same in another sutta, AN4.159. Conceit and craving can be skillfully used for the path, and abandoned when they are no longer needed. As I understand it, for many centuries the Dhamma was the most popular and successful teaching in India (before it was forcefully expelled). Why was it so? Was it because it was the most aggressive religion that converted the hearts and minds with sword and fire? No. Was it because it’s philosophy was the most logically sound? Probably not. India had many different types of traditions, and I am sure they had a very strong logical justification. India was filled with very bright thinkers and it wouldn’t be too difficult to logically refute the philosophical teachings of Buddhism. Even within later Buddhist schools there were many competing Abhidhammas. Those different philosophical ideas did have sound reasoning behind them, so the philosophical dissent was also inside of Buddhist schools themselves. In the suttas, the Buddha took it insulting to claim that He merely hammered out the teaching on the anvil of logic. His teaching is atakkavacaro. Beyond logic. What I believe was the difference was that the Dhamma was pragmatic and actually produced results. For example, the Buddha rejected answering such questions about the world being plural or monistic, existing or not existing, and taught dependent origination instead (SN12.48). IMHO what that signified was not that D.O. is a middle teaching (as in compromise) between extremes of existence and non-existence, oneness or manyness – but a different way of looking at things. This way is pragmatic and focuses more on “what to do” rather than dead-end questions of how the world is made and the workings of the world. DO in forward origination mode starts with ignorance, and ends with suffering. DO in forward cessation mode starts with “with the cessation of ignorance… stress ceases”. This seems to talk about an origin of suffering and the way for its cessation – a soteriological focus rather than ontological. One can argue about philosophical complexities to no end (the thousands of years of such debates is testament to that), but you can’t argue about direct and experiential results of highest happiness. You can’t argue about actual usefulness of the Buddha’s teaching. People say the happiness of the bhikkhus, and that was the proof beyond mere words and convincingly sounding logical arguments that may be beautiful in rhetoric but impotent to produce actual results... Some more good sutta links. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.048.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.010.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn51/sn51.015.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.nymo.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.136.nymo.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html **************** Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One: "Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?" When this was said, the Blessed One was silent. "Then is there no self?" A second time, the Blessed One was silent. Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left. Then, not long after Vacchagotta the wanderer had left, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "Why, lord, did the Blessed One not answer when asked a question by Vacchagotta the wanderer?" "Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?" "No, lord." "And if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.010.than.html ------ "So it is with an arahant whose mental effluents are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis. Whatever desire he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular desire is allayed. Whatever persistence he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular persistence is allayed. Whatever intent he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular intent is allayed. Whatever discrimination he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular discrimination is allayed. So what do you think, brahman? Is this an endless path, or one with an end?" "You're right, Master Ananda. This is a path with an end, and not an endless one. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn51/sn51.015.than.html "'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then, at a later time, he abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. "'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then, at a later time, he abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html ----------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.024.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.197.than.html Imho, With metta, Alex #113058 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(5) sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- On Sun, 9/1/11, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Vibhuuta vihaari - what is clear, living for, i.e living for panna > to understand what appears (clearly). > Nina, see the Thai Maha Nidesa, Sariputta Nidesa, p.664 (at bottom > left of page). On the sleeve it gives S/2 664, I believe. I'd be > interested to see your translation of the paragraph sometime. ------- N: Thank you. Exactly, I found it. There is only this one sentence, and I do not think there is a further elaboration, but I shall read on, Nina. ... S: That wouldn't surprise me (just the one sentence). K.Sujin was talking about just reading and carefully considering one word or one phrase and it may have been in this context. The pariyatti is the wise considering of realities as applicable at this moment, not the detailed recitations without any understanding as discussed before. Unpacking, cleaning and sorting out in Sydney and still a little jet-lagged, but just dhammas rolling on now as at any other time! We're very fortunate to have heard the Dhamma in this life and to appreciate the value of just understanding what appears now! Metta Sarah ======== #113059 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions on Samatha. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Thank you for your additional helpful comments. --- On Mon, 10/1/11, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Just one thing: N:>To conclude: I believe that it is essential to understand citta at this moment and I appreciate it that Kh Sujin is reminding us of this time and again. I like her dialogue with Alan: S: Is there depression now? A: No. S: Is there happiness now? A: Yes. S: Does it last? A: No. S: Does it belong to anyone or is it just a dhamma? A:Just a dhamma. S: Same for unhappiness, seeing, visible object - all dhammas. Not my happiness, sadness or thinking that we're used to finding so important. -------- ... S: This was from my dialogue with Alan before KS arrived. (S = Sarah). I'm glad you liked it. Metta Sarah ====== #113060 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(6) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > KS started talking again about how the first moment of life is the result, patisandhi citta, dependent on past kamma - no choice at all. By anantara paccaya, cittas and cetasikas continue to arise after the firstcitta has fallen away instantly, conditioned by the same kamma. Just having bhavanga cittas is useless, so kamma must produce eyes, ears etc so that kamma can experience pleasant and unpleasant objects. No choice. And so the cittas continue, day to day, time to time, until the last moment, on and on. Thinking, sanna, accumulating, thinking with lobha about different objects even now, by accumulations. After Seeing, vitakka at each moment. Just wondering how vitakka comes in after seeing and what it does with the object of seeing, how it investigates, and for how long. If vitakka is there, isn't that accompanied by sati? If you are describing ordinary worldling life, is vitakka still involved in the sequence? Best, Robert E. P.S. "no rush" :-) = = = = = = = = = = #113061 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Do the "god's" exist? nilovg Dear Revtriple, Op 13-jan-2011, om 10:19 heeft revtriple het volgende geschreven: > Is there a sutta in the Pali Canon Tipataka where Buddha is asked > whether or not the gods actually exist and he answers that YES they > do......But that they are within the realm of Samsara and are > therefore impermanent? > > Are they simply metaphors? It does not seem this way to me....... ------ N: As you say, they are not metaphors. In the Kindred Sayings I, there are two sections entirely on devas and sons of devas. In many suttas devas ask questions to the Buddha. We read that a deva appears and lights up the entire Jeta Grove when approaching the Buddha. Rebirth in a deva plane is the result of a good deed. What we call deva are actually mental phenomena and physical phenomena and these arise and fall away, they are impermanent. They fall away and arise again so long as the kamma that caused them to be a deva is not yet exhausted. Birth in a deva plane is not forever. After that birth there will be other kinds of rebirth. Nina. #113062 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 13-jan-2011, om 4:14 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven. > > > > > > I am a little confused how sati can "experience" visible object > > > separate from the moment of seeing. > > To use an analogy, it would be similar if I wanted to look at the > way my camera takes a picture. ... > > If I wanted to look at how the subject appears, I look at the > photo. If I want to see how the camera is doing its job, I have to > look at the camera. They are both working together, but I can only > focus on one at a time, or investigate one at a time. I know it's > not a perfect analogy, but it gives an idea of how first one could > look at the rupa and see its characteristic, and then at the > seeing, and look at its characteristic, to see each one clearly, > one at a time. -------- N: Yes, good. Another analogy: we cannot think of two things at the same time. Actually, the cetasika ekaggataa, or concentration focusses on one object at a time. ------ Nina. #113063 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sabhaava, was The clansman... nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 13-jan-2011, om 4:50 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven > > > The Visuddhimagga (XX, 96) explains about the arising and falling > > away of nma and rpa: > > > > > its arising. When it arises it does not come from any heap or store; > > and when it ceases, it does not go in any direction. > > I wonder if the statement in the Visudhimagga was in part arguing > against the Yogacara idea of the alayavijnana - the "storehouse > consciousness" which holds the seeds or tendencies that have > developed and creates vipaka in the future? --------- N: The storehouse consciousness suggests something that stays, or another citta, subconsciousness, together with the citta that experiences objects that are impinging. Perhaps all sorts of ideas existed at that time and nowadays. The main problem must be: how is it that there can be accumulations of tendencies and of kamma whereas whatever arises is impermanent? People have often questions about that and this is understandable. ------ Nina. #113064 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 1/13/2011 10:27:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Another example: Teaching on Kamma and its results. One monk took the phrase (all things are stressful) out of context and indiscriminately inferred that even good kamma leads to stress (MN136). While it is true that ultimately all things are stressful, this is very advanced teaching that may backfire for some if used too early without the required preliminary steps being completed. Some may use this as an excuse not to do good kamma since it still leads to stress. ====================================== You are making an important point, Alex. I'd like to add my slant to it: All conditioned phenomena, including kusala kamma, are dukkha. As you point out, care must be taken with regard to the meaning of this, however. Every wholesome conditioned phenomenon is dukkha in (at least) two closely related senses: 1) It is imperfect due to its impermanence and uncontrollability. [Note: Being wholesome and useful in the face of impermanence and uncontrollability is already an imperfection - thus its very wholesomeness is a kind of ironic "fault"!!] 2) It is a condition for mental pain if craved or clung to. Even the most wholesome of conditioned states if craved or clung to is a condition for suffering. [But the tanha/upadana is requisite for the suffering.] With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113065 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc nilovg Hi Howard, Alex, Op 14-jan-2011, om 14:28 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > conditioned phenomena, including kusala kamma, are dukkha. ------ N: Kamma leads to rebirth which is dukkha. The arahat does not commit any more kamma, he has reached the end to dukkha because there is no more rebirtrh for him. Nina. #113066 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(5) nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 14-jan-2011, om 5:22 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: That wouldn't surprise me (just the one sentence). K.Sujin was > talking about just reading and carefully considering one word or > one phrase and it may have been in this context. ------ N: How right this is. Kh Sujin can answer things with short phrases, and the other day you quoted something about engagement in politics, where she said: better develop understanding of one's citta now. This was at first unwelcome to me. I thought: but we always talk about it that we can be fully engaged in our social life. What about our social life. I felt uneasy about it, but I did not say anything. Then after a while I started to appreciate this. I am frequently discussing politics with Lodewijk, in our own country, and in the States, and then I realise much more frequently: how is the citta now? It is rooted in dosa. And we remind one another. Before I had not realised it so often when there was dosa, even slight. So this shows that even a short answer can be most useful. Nina. #113067 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions on Samatha. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 14-jan-2011, om 5:26 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: Does it belong to anyone or is it just a dhamma? > A:Just a dhamma. > S: Same for unhappiness, seeing, visible object - all dhammas. Not my > happiness, sadness or thinking that we're used to finding so > important. > -------- > ... > S: This was from my dialogue with Alan before KS arrived. (S = > Sarah). I'm glad you liked it. ------- N: :-)) ------ Nina. #113068 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. nilovg Dear Han and Alex, Thank you for your input. Han, the ascetic practices are very special and suited to monks. I like the expression delight in development, bhaavanaaraamataa. Alex, You took a lot of trouble with the article you wrote. Appreciated. I want to think it over and react to some points later on. Nina. Op 14-jan-2011, om 2:03 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Text: (anudhammacaarino): those whose moral habits conform to the dhamma.> > Footnote tiikas: According to the Puraanatiika, anudhamma seems to > refer to such an austere precept as wanting little, which is > suitable for purifying knowledge and vision (Udaana co 327). > ------- > [Han] I do not have the Commentary and tiikas under reference. So I > do not know what is mentioned there about "wanting little". > But in Visuddhimagga, Chapter II The Ascetic Practices, > > 1. [59] Now while a meditator is engaged in the pursuit of virtue, > he should set about undertaking the ascetic practices in order to > perfect those special qualities of fewness of wishes, contentment, > etc., by which the virtue of the kind already described is cleansed. --------- #113069 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:45 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 1. nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 13-jan-2011, om 19:06 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > <<'By the right abhisamaya of conceit he made an end of Ill" - in > such passage > samaya means 'elimination'. The fact of ill has the sense of > oppression, of > being conditioned, of burning, of reversibility, of penetrability > (abhisamayattho) - in such passage samaya means "penetration' > > I believe Namoli translation is based on the meaning of samaya as > harmony of > antecedents which shows the occurrence from many causes. Many > causes towards > the production of a common result. ------ N: Yes, this text is very important and interesting. I am glad you brought to my attention that in these passages also abhisamaya is used. The penetrative wisdom at enlightenment. Nina. #113070 From: "revtriple" Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:55 pm Subject: Nina Van Gorkom Re: Deva... revtriple Thank you for responding! Do you know where in the pali Canon does it say that one is reborn in the deva relm for having done a good deed? Where can I research this? Is there a sutta where the Buddha is asked the question of whether or not the "God's" exist and he replies that they do actually exist, but that they too are impermanet? Where can I do more research on the fact that they consist of "mental states"? (seems logical to me!) Thank You! #113071 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nina Van Gorkom Re: Deva... sarahprocter... Dear Revtriple, Welcome to DSG! I'm glad to see you're asking many good questions! --- On Fri, 14/1/11, revtriple wrote: >Where can I do more research on the fact that they consist of "mental states"? (seems logical to me!) ... S: I'm sure Nina will be adding more. What we refer to as People or Gods are really only different mental and physical phenomena arising and falling away. How are Gods or People experienced at this moment? Surely, only by thinking. If you go to the "Useful Posts" section in the DSG files and scroll down to "Gods" and "People", I think you will also find many other helpful messages on this topic from the archives. Finally, if you feel inclined to do so, please let us know a little more about your background, such as where you live. Metta Sarah p.s Can I just remind you (and other newcomers) to make it clear at the beginning of your message who you are addressing. Also, please make sure you sign off with the name we should address you by, preferably your real name for this list. ======= #113072 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:36 pm Subject: Gradual is the Dhamma Teaching! bhikkhu5 Friends: Gradually Dawns the Dhamma! The Buddha once told nanda : nanda, it is not easy to teach the Dhamma to others. One should consider five things before teaching Dhamma to others. What five? One should teach thinking: 1: I will teach the Dhamma gradually starting with the most simple. 2: I will teach about the cause & effect of doing what is advantageous. 3: I will teach from and about gentle kindness out of genuine sympathy. 4: I will teach Dhamma not for the sake of gain, fame or admiration. 5: I will teach Dhamma without hurting or harming myself and others. nanda, it is not easy to teach the Dhamma to others. One should consider these five things before teaching Dhamma to others. Anguttara Nikya III.184 Just as the ocean has a gradual deepening sloping off the continental shelf, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, exactly in the same way, is this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinya) a gradual training, a gradual development, a gradual progression, with a sudden penetration to understanding only after a long stretch. Udna 5.5 The Buddha's teaching is build upon this way of gradual development. His method of "gradual instruction" (anupubbi-katha), and "gradual training" (anupubbi-sikkha) makes the practitioner at each stage of development discover new and ever deeper & more important aspects of the law of cause-&-effect kamma , the cornerstone of Right View. <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #113073 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:07 am Subject: Re: thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc kenhowardau Hi Alex and all, Thanks for your presentation, it was interesting. However, I find all modern-day interpretations of the Dhamma unconvincing and uninspiring. I must admit, I was interested in a conventional form of Buddhism for a while - before I heard the true (original) Dhamma. But I think eventually I would have grown tired of it, and returned to my comfortable old materialist-atheism. ----------- A: > Buddha taught the gradual path. The path implies that it leads to a certain destination. ----------- KH: This is neither profound nor unique. All religions and philosophies lead to destinations. ---------------------- A: His teaching IMHO is pragmatic path gradually leading to cessation of more and more stress. IMHO the gradual path means that his teaching are meant to be followed in a certain order, and the later stages are build on top of the previous stages. ---------------------- KH: Again, this is not new. Whenever the Buddha's teaching is reduced to the ordinary, commonplace level of other religions, it loses everything that makes it unique and profound. Thanks, but no thanks. :-) Ken H #113074 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:57 am Subject: Re: thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, >However, I find all modern-day interpretations of the Dhamma >unconvincing and uninspiring. And I find certain kind of interpretation that seems to directly contradict what the suttas, VsM and commentaries to be somewhat unconvincing. It seems that whenever the suttas or Comy say's "do X" some say that it really means that "one should not do X". > KH: This is neither profound nor unique. All religions and >philosophies lead to destinations. > KH: Again, this is not new. Whenever the Buddha's teaching is >reduced to the ordinary, commonplace level of other religions, it >loses everything that makes it unique and profound. Its the practice that makes it unique. Most religions are "believe X and heaven is guaranteed". For most Xtians, for example, the practice is to go to church once a week, pray for forgiveness for the sins, and celebrate various religious holidays. With metta, Alex #113075 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:48 am Subject: Re: thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc kenhowardau Hi Alex, ----------- <. . .> A: > Its the practice that makes it unique. Most religions are "believe X and heaven is guaranteed". For most Xtians, for example, the practice is to go to church once a week, pray for forgiveness for the sins, and celebrate various religious holidays. ------------ That's debateable. I would argue that people of all religions believe they should practise what they preach. Buddhism is no different in that regard. The original form of Buddhism, however, taught there was belief and practice, but no believer and no practiser. Now that's different! :-) Ken H #113076 From: "Swee Boon" Date: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:41 pm Subject: Re: Do the "god's" exist? nidive Hi colette, > colette: Why are you so fixated on the cognition of these alleged "gods" as being DEPENDENT UPON "Eye Consciousness"? Why does a "god" have to be "visual"? What happens if the "being" of this "god" has nothing what so ever to do with the "eye consciousness" and is "ear consciousness" of "body consciousness"? <...> If I had developed the divine ear, I would probably hear them talking. > colette only a few seconds. IF they protect then how do you explain Queensland's plees for rain and water being deluged by such warm New Zeeland like conditions? Even if Australia sinks under, there are still millions of humans to continue the game. These "gods" are not the Perfect God that is often portrayed by Christianity and such religions. They are not omnipotent and they could care less to intervene in such 'micro'-disasters. I believe they protect the Earth on a 'macro'-disaster basis such as very powerful coronal mass ejections or a very huge asteriod striking the Earth. Swee Boon #113077 From: A T Date: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:02 pm Subject: Re: thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc truth_aerator Hello KenH, Nina, all, Buddha did teach "rites & rituals" (Silabbata) being required at some point of the path. "He doesn't speak of purity in connection with view, learning, knowledge, precept or practice (Silabbatenāpi). Nor is it found by a person through lack of view, of learning, of knowledge, of precept or practice (Asilatā abbatā)." - Snp 4.9 TB Transl. What I understand that to mean is that those are the steps toward the goal, but not goal themselves. But note, awakening cannot occur without using Silabbata at some point. "But when — by following a life of precept & practice (Silabbata), a life, a holy life that is followed as of essential worth — one's unskillful mental qualities decline while one's skillful mental qualities increase: that sort of precept & practice, life, holy life that is followed as of essential worth is fruitful." That is what Ven. Ananda said, and the Teacher approved." - AN 3.78 The Buddha approved silabbata as long as wholesome mental qualities increase and unwholesome decrease. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.09.than.html#fnt-1 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.078.than.html With metta, Alex #113078 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:29 pm Subject: Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) epsteinrob Hi Sarah! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > The final set of notes for the trip. We have a couple of quiet days and then on Tues, Jon and I have a long trip back to Sydney via Hong Kong. Wow, you sure do travel a lot! It sounds like fun - I hope you enjoy going to so many places. > 7. Rob E's questions > > - Meditation subjects and now!(see #112949). > KS: Why select? > Rob's response about the Buddha recommending different meditation subjects and so on. > KS: what appears now? Again! Can breath be the object of right understanding now? If not, why think about it? Kusala is the moment without lobha, dosa or moha. When there is any kusala, there is calm > Qu about the opening stanzas in the Anapanasati sutta and breath. > KS: What appears now? Can that which does not appear be the object of right understanding? What about pariyatti, or in the case of nimitta? One can regard it correctly, even if not present, no? Why did Buddha teach these large groups mindfulness of breathing, quite apart from what they may have been experiencing at a given moment? > #112799 Rob "And yet, in the relevant suttas, the practice of sitting and concentrating through breath and other objects of meditation finds the Buddha using...." > KS: Using!! Dhammas are anatta. > ".....he reached his own enlightenment through sitting meditation, and was a master of the jhanas himself...' > KS: Yes, breath. Breath is for mahapurisas. This doesn't mean we know about breath. What is it? Does it appear? Do we really know it? Is it the sensation of breath or do we think it's there? Wanting? Is it the object of attachment or detachment? If one goes and meditates, it's wrong view. Breath - does it appear now? > If and when breath appears, there can be right understanding, not just for the mahapurisa. It's very difficult to be aware. A conditioned dhamma - anatta. Thanks, I enjoyed these comments; they have some very nice information. > - killing (#112892) > When there is the intention to kill but someone is prevented from carrying out the act - maybe a wounding, for example. The intention is the same, but the act, the kamma-patha is not complete yet. It cannot produce rebirth, but can bring its results after rebirth. I wonder what kamma-patha consists of, if it is not action per se. > - discussing dhamma and motives in message to Jon. Rob "There is an intention to develop enlightenment factors lurking beneath, otherwise no one would bother" Similar to Phil's points. > Discussing dhamma - different moments, different cittas. > "Silabbataparamasa appears by attachment" (as mentioned last time) means one would like to understand. Wanting to come here to discuss or trying to do something to have such understanding or coming to attain enlightenment is silabbataparamasa. Trying or liking to experience realities or wanting to experience. It depends on the moment whether there is trying to have understanding, whether there is silabbataparamasa. > ***** Understandable. I guess it's good to remember that one can't try not to try or try not to want to understand either, but just see the trying and wanting for what they are. > The session lasted less than two hours, but we cover a lot of ground when we visit. I can think of a lot of friends on DSG who've been active members over the years, like Rob, Phil or Howard who would really appreciate the discussion, company (and food, Rob!!). If any of you have any chance of visiting Thailand anytime, please send me a note and I'd be very happy to try and coordinate something to make it worthwhile for you. Friends are trying to persuade me to visit again in March, perhaps for a few days in the countryside. How about joining Rob, Phil or anyone else if it happens? That would really persuade me! I would love it. Don't think I can do it at the moment, but a wonderful idea. I will keep those Thai lunches in mind and hopefully as time goes by it will condition something to happen. :-) If we managed to have a dsg convention and get everyone to converge someday, that would be great too. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #113079 From: Vince Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nina Van Gorkom Re: Deva... cerovzt@... Dear Sarah you wrote: > S: I'm sure Nina will be adding more. What we refer to as People or Gods are > really only different mental and physical phenomena arising and falling away. > How are Gods or People experienced at this moment? Surely, only by thinking. but we read in Suttas there are some rupa-devas and also sharing our same kama-loka: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html Why they cannot be perceived with sense organs by common humans? It seems in past times it happened in dependence of the collective moral conditions: "In the past, for many hundreds of years, killing or harming living beings and improper behavior towards relatives, and improper behavior towards Brahmans and ascetics has increased. But now due to Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi's Dhamma practice, the sound of the drum has been replaced by the sound of the Dhamma. The sighting of heavenly cars, auspicious elephants, bodies of fire and other divine sightings has not happened for many hundreds of years. But now because Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi promotes restraint in the killing and harming of living beings, proper behavior towards relatives, Brahmans and ascetics, and respect for mother, father and elders, such sightings have increased." - Asoka IV edict and also it seems there are other beings in rupa worlds and some devas sharing our kama-loka existence: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html It will be quite helpful clarifying what deva-types can be perceivable by common humans according Dhamma. What types? best, #113080 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:37 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > KO: Dhamma is not about static or influx or motiion. It is about conditions > that dhamma that condition dhamma to arise. Anatta is a nature of dhamma, it is > not about dhamma in motion. Even if a human could run as fast as light or as > slow as a snail, it is still dhamma that condition the dhamma to arise. that > nature of dhamma is anatta, if it is condition that nature is anicca and > dukkha. These are characteristics that cannot be separated from dhamma. > > Motion got nothing to do with anicca also, whether you are a god or a snail, > motion is condition by dhamma. Dhamma is anicca, that is the nature of such > except for Nibbana. When you say that an "arising dhamma" has anicca and anatta as part of its "nature," what exactly does that mean to you? A characteristic is not just a label that you can attach to something; it is, as you would say, a reality. So it has to actually mean something. Anicca does not make *any* sense in any defineable way if it does not apply to the changing nature of a dhamma, the fact that it does not stay the same even for a moment. That is Buddha's teaching, and if you try to make anicca mean something other than constant change, it is meaningless terminology. So anicca only means something if you can describe what it actually means, not just say it is its "inherent nature." That is just a generalization. If something is a characteristic, that is a description of something actual *about* it. > the description in Abhidhamma is to understand dhamma and the characteristic of > them. This describing helps to break them the compounding effect of our > attachment to self. Self is a construct due to the moha and ditthi. Even moha > and ditthi are not self . Yes, and anatta reflects the complete lack of self-hood or entity that pertains to a dhamma. It is a negative assertion. > >> ------------------- > >> RE: > Sarah, would that make a good question for K. Sujin? :-) Is the anicca > >>characteristic of dhammas expressed in the three phases of a dhamma arising, > >>functioning and then falling away? Thanks...! > > KO: Yes because of this rising and falling, there is suffering. Why does rising and falling cause suffering? Because we cling to dhammas and think they will fulfill us because of ignorance. We turn them into part of self in our minds and don't acknowledge the change. Then when they change or fall away, it causes suffering. The Buddha's message is logical. It makes sense of everyday life as it makes sense of individual dhammas. > >> ------------------- > >> > >> Why not ask her something we have actually been disagreeing about: "Are > >>conditioned dhammas real in the ultimate sense of the word? Are they discrete > >>objects that have absolute identity?" > > KO: they are discrete objects and have characteristics to be identified their > uniqueness. Without an identity or charactertistics unique to them, how could > one differentiate moha and panna. Then the world would be mixed up, how can > there be salvation. They are discrete does not mean they could arise on their > own because there are conditions for their arisen. No condition dhamma arise on > their own but their individual characteristic can be known. If cannot be known, > how can Buddha describe dhamma in terms of elements, senses, bases and > aggregates etc. I believe that things have characteristics, but you have to ask 'what is a characteristic?' Is it inherent? Is it static, like a mole on someone's face? Is it a function? Is a characteristic constrained by what we can identify? Is it the same every time? If vittaka strikes object A, does it behave exactly the same way when it strikes object B? Obviously every time there is a new set of conditions, all the functions and characteristics, while similar, are slightly different to accommodate a new object, new set of conditions, new combination of factors. It's a mistake, in my opinion, to overdue the idea of "inherent characteristics" to the point where we change them into static ideals, instead of recognizing investigating what happens in different circumstances. To say something has this characteristic or this function is general. How that applies to a particular situation is specific to a particular set of conditions - at least that's what makes sense to me. And those conditions are unique each time they arise. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #113081 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:06 am Subject: Laziness is a Disaster of Mental Mud! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to cure Heavy Lethargy and Laziness! Lethargy-&-Laziness may often be induced by self-destructive behaviour such as: Alcohol, drugs, dope, pills, marihuana, sniffing, over-eating, excessive masturbation and night-living. Such often life-long chemical or behavioural causes of Lethargy-&-Laziness should be eradicated. As long as this is not achieved one remains a phlegmatic & apathetic zombie, drifting downwards due to inability to initiate advantageous behaviour. Noticing Lethargy-&-Laziness (thna-middha) emerge can make it evaporate: Herein, Bhikkhus, when Lethargy-&-Laziness is present in him, the bhikkhu notes & understands: There is Lethargy-&-Laziness in me, and when this Lethargy-&-Laziness is absent, he notes & understands: Now there is no Lethargy-&-Laziness in me. He indeed also understands how not yet arisen Lethargy-&-Laziness arises. He understands how to leave behind any arisen Lethargy-&-Laziness, and he understands how left Lethargy-&-Laziness will not arise again in the future. MN 10 What is the feeding cause that makes Lethargy-&-Laziness arise? There are boredom, apathy, tiredness, lazy stretching of the body, heavy drowsiness after too big meals, and mental sluggishness. Frequently giving irrational and unwise attention to these mental states, this is the feeding cause of the arising of Lethargy-&-Laziness, and the feeding cause of worsening and deepening of already present Lethargy-&-Laziness. SN 46:51 What is the starving cause that makes Lethargy-&-Laziness cease? There is the quality of initiative. There is the quality of launching action. There is the quality of tenaciously enduring persistence. Frequently giving rational & wise attention to these three mental elements, is the starving cause for the non-arising of Lethargy-&-Laziness, and the starving cause for the arousing and stirring of already present Lethargy-&-Laziness. SN 46:51 The Supreme Ideal: Before the Buddha sat down to meditate in order to attain enlightenment, he made this determination: May just all flesh and blood of this body dry up into a stiff frame of only bones, tendons and skin... Not a second before having achieved, what can be achieved by male strength, power, and energy, will I rise from this seat... MN 70 How to stimulate the mind: How does one stimulate the mind at a time when it needs stimulation? If due to slowness of understanding or due to not having yet reached the happiness of tranquillity, one's mind is dull, then one should rouse it through reflecting on the eight objects stirring urgency. These 8 objects are: birth, decay, disease & death; the suffering in hell, demon, ghost & animal world! The suffering in the past and the future rooted in Samsara. The suffering of the present rooted in the pursuit for food and living. Vism. IV,63 Perceiving the suffering in impermanence: In a Bhikkhu, who is used to see the suffering in impermanence and who frequently reflects on this, there will be established in him such an acute sense of the danger in laziness, apathy, inactivity and lethargy, just as if he was threatened by a mad murderer with drawn sword! AN 7:46 Lethargy-&-Laziness is an inner mental Prison: Just as when a man has been forced into prison is Lethargy-&-Laziness, but later when he gets released from this (inner) prison, then he is safe, fearing no loss of property. And at that good he rejoices glad at heart... Such is the breaking out of Lethargy-&-Laziness... Another person has been kept in jail during a festival day, and so could see none of the shows. When people say: Oh, how fun was this festival! He will remain shy, mute and silent because he did not enjoy any festival himself... Similarly is prison of Lethargy-&-Laziness... Another person that once had been in jail on a festival day. But when freed and celebrating the festival on a later occasion, he looks back: Before due to my own careless laziness, I was in prison on that day & could not enjoy this fine festival. Now I shall therefore be alert and careful. Since he remains thus alert and careful no detrimental state can overcome his mind. Having fully enjoyed the festival, he exclaims: What a fun festival! Good is absence of Lethargy-&-Laziness... Whoever lives only to satisfy his search & urge for pleasure and beauty, unguarded in senses, immoderately indulging in eating, lazy, lethargic, inactive, dulled into apathy. Such ones Mara sweeps away like breaking a branch of a tiny bush ... Dhammapada 7 Even if one should live a hundred years, if lazy, slack and idle, better it would be to live but just a single day striving with all one got. Dhammapada 112 Easy is the shameless life now. Easy is it to be bold, retaliating, lazy, uninformed and wrong-viewed. Dhammapada 244 Rouse yourself! Sit up! Resolutely train yourself to attain peace. Do not let the king of death, see you lazy, and thereby lead you astray and dominate you. Sutta Nipta II, 10 <.... Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #113082 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Devas nilovg Dear Revtriple and Vince, Op 14-jan-2011, om 14:55 heeft revtriple het volgende geschreven: > > Do you know where in the pali Canon does it say that one is reborn > in the deva relm for having done a good deed? > Where can I research this? ------- N: Anaathapi.n.dika was extraordinarily generous, and he was reborn a deva: M III, 262, Anaathapi.n.dikovaadasutta. In the Jaatakas and throughout the teachings we hear about rebirth as a deva as result of a good deed. See also Stories of the Mansions, Vimaanavatthu (PTS, The minor Antholosies, Part IV). In the second Book of the Abhidhamma, the Book of Analysis, ch 18, the Heart of the Teaching, we read about "Productive Action and Age Limit". We find names of the different planes of existence and age limit. They are of different gradations. The Buddha taught cause and effect and since good deeds have different degrees of kusala, their results are also of different degrees. The meaning of all these names are indicating the different results of kusala. ----- R: Is there a sutta where the Buddha is asked the question of whether or not the "God's" exist and he replies that they do actually exist, but that they too are impermanet? -------- N: There are age limits and when the result is higher the time good results are received are longer. But still, rebirth in the different planes does not last forever. Details in the same section of the Book of Analysis. No rebirth at all is better than rebirth in these planes. Because one never knows which kamma will produce which rebirth when life in a higher plane is over. -------- > R:Where can I do more research on the fact that they consist of > "mental states"? (seems logical to me!) -------- N: The Abhidhamma teaches us that what we take for a person are citta, cetasika and ruupa. In the Kindred Sayings (see IV, V) we find many texts that teach this. There is no self, no person, only dhammas appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind-door. ------ Vince: it depends on conditions who can see devas. We have to be very careful, because one may just imagine that one sees them. And what is the use anyway? The Buddha taught dukkha and the way to be freed from it and that is what matters. We should develop understanding of what appears now, is it naama or ruupa? Nina. #113083 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc nilovg Dear Alex, Op 14-jan-2011, om 4:27 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > > Buddha taught the gradual path. The path implies that it leads to a > certain destination. His teaching IMHO is pragmatic path gradually > leading to cessation of more and more stress. ------- N: Yes. I read in the Vinaya, (PTS, Horner, IV, mahaavagga, 15 etc.) the story of Yasa, very impressive. We read that the Buddha spoke a progressive talk (anupubbikathaa) to Yasa:"...talk on giving, talk on moral habit, talk on heaven, he explained the peril, the vanity, the depravity of pleasures of the senses, the advantage in renouncing them. When the Lord knew that the mind of Yasa, the young man of family , was ready, malleable, devoid of hindrances, uplifted, pleased, then he explained to him the teaching on dhamma which the awakened ones have themselves discovered: ill (dukkha), uprising, stopping, the Way..." We read that Yasa then became a sotaapanna. I think we should pay attention to this gradual teaching. If you can elaborate more, that is very welcome. Giving: one learns that it is good to think of others instead of being engaged with one's own pleasure. Siila: as restraint from evil and as doing good deeds through body and speech. Heaven: good deeds bring happy results such as rebirth in heavenly planes. He taught cause and result. He taught the danger of sense pleasures. Without hearing dhamma one may have as the goal of life as much pleasure as one can obtain. But these pleasures do not last, and they cause one to accumulate more and more, to be enslaved, not free. We read that the Buddha also taught Dhamma to Yasa's father and when Yasa "was reviewing his stage (of knowledge) as it was seen, as it was known, his mind was freed from the cankers without grasping." He became an arahat. The Lord spoke a progressive talk to the mother and former wife, and they became sotaapanna. Four friends also became sotaapannas after hearing a progressive talk. They became monks and were instructed more by the Buddha. "While they were being exhorted, instructed by the Lord with dhamma talk, their minds were freed from the cankers without grasping. The same happened to fifty friends of Yasa. "At that time there were sixty-one perfected ones in the world..." BTW I have not read as to all these cases that the Buddha said that attainment of jhaana was necessary for enlightenment. ------- > A:He has taught the path in sīla->samādhi->paññā order. His > order of development probably had a very good and practical reason > for being such. Jumping into wisdom of not-self before strong > restraint of coarse and medium defilements could actually be > detrimental to some people. ------ N: This is more complex and it can be viewed from several aspects. As understanding develops, siila also develops: siila as restraint and also as the practice of good deeds through body and speech. Before hearing the Dhamma, we never knew that citta, kusala citta and akusala citta, is the source of deeds. Through the Dhamma we learn more about kusala and akusala. We become less forgetful of the different cittas that arise in a day. The sotaapanna has developed satipa.t.thaana to a level higher than oridnary people. He still may be very angry, but he is also aware of anger as a conditioned dhamma and there can be indriya sa"mvara siila: guarding of the doorways, preventing evil actions. Also samaadhi develops as pa~n~naa develops. There will be awareness of whatever object in whatever circumstance, and one will not be distracted by the outward situation. There is a certain order of perfection: it is said that the sotaapanna has perfected siila (he cannot transgress the five precepts nor can he commit evil deeds that can produce an unhappy rebirth). The anaagaami has perfected concentration, he has true calm that is freedom from attachment to sense objects. The arahat has perfected wisdom. -------- Nina. #113084 From: Vince Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Devas cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > it depends on conditions who can see devas. We have to be very > careful, because one may just imagine that one sees them. And what is > the use anyway? The Buddha taught dukkha and the way to be freed from > it and that is what matters. We should develop understanding of what > appears now, is it naama or ruupa? yes, as you says the devas cannot make our own work. But knowing the deva-types who can be perceivable by sense-organ is not a useless knowledge. It can be a help to understand what is existence and dukkha. Well, now we perceive animals and sometimes this is quite helpful. You know, there is the scientific fact when the mind cannot accept some thing, then that thing can remain invisible to him. Is this not ignorance and dukkha? best, #113085 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc nilovg Dear Alex, Op 15-jan-2011, om 18:02 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > Hello KenH, Nina, all, > > Buddha did teach "rites & rituals" (Silabbata) being required at > some point of the path. > > "He doesn't speak of purity in connection with view, learning, > knowledge, precept or practice (Silabbatenāpi). Nor is it found by > a person through lack of view, of learning, of knowledge, of > precept or practice (Asilatā abbatā)." - Snp 4.9 TB Transl. > > What I understand that to mean is that those are the steps toward > the goal, but not goal themselves. But note, awakening cannot occur > without using Silabbata at some point. > > "But when — by following a life of precept & practice (Silabbata), > a life, a holy life that is followed as of essential worth — one's > unskillful mental qualities decline while one's skillful mental > qualities increase: that sort of precept & practice, life, holy > life that is followed as of essential worth is fruitful." > That is what Ven. Ananda said, and the Teacher approved." - AN 3.78 > > The Buddha approved silabbata as long as wholesome mental qualities > increase and unwholesome decrease. ------ N: Siilabbataa: in the dictionary: good works, ceremonial observance. This is different from siilabbataa praamaasa: clinging to rites and rituals, which is wrong practice. Siila has a very wide meaning, also satipa.t.thaana can be seen under the aspect of siila, practice. ------ Nina. #113086 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Alex, and Ken) - In a message dated 1/16/2011 5:38:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Siilabbataa: in the dictionary: good works, ceremonial observance. This is different from siilabbataa praamaasa: clinging to rites and rituals, which is wrong practice. ================================== This strikes me as important, Nina. This is the first I've seen this distinction made here. Some others, I think of KenH in particular, seem to think that *all* intentional activities, and especially ceremonial observances, meditating, guarding the senses etc are harmful and are wrong practice. You mention *clinging* to rites and rituals as wrong practice, and I quite agree that it is such. All clinging is a source of suffering and is harmful - varying in degree, of course. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113087 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc nilovg Hi Howard, Op 16-jan-2011, om 14:30 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: Siilabbataa: in the dictionary: good works, ceremonial observance. > This is different from siilabbataa praamaasa: clinging to rites and > rituals, which is wrong practice. > ================================== > This strikes me as important, Nina. This is the first I've seen this > distinction made here. ------ N: We can attend ceremonies in the temple like a cremation service, with kusala cittas, even accompanied by sati and pa~n~naa. It all depends on the citta at that moment. One may also attend ceremonies with superstition, wishing to obtain something for oneself and this is a different matter. Nina. #113088 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:56 pm Subject: not-Self strategy and Dhamma truth_aerator Dear Nina, KenH, all, > N: Siilabbataa: in the dictionary: good works, ceremonial >observance. This is different from siilabbataa praamaasa: clinging >to rites and rituals, which is wrong practice. > Siila has a very wide meaning, also satipa.t.thaana can be seen >under the aspect of siila, practice. So the fault is with paramasa part rather than silabbata itself. Maybe the same is with "practice". It is not practice itself (like meditation) that is wrong, but wrong views that one can attach to it. If silabatta is required aspect (Snp 4.9) then it needs to be done, but without wrong views. It is paramasa aspect that is wrong, not silabbata. To tell you the truth, by looking over certain suttas on Silabatta - Snp 4.9 & AN 3.78 Desire that could be used for the path (SN51.15, AN4.159) Buddha's refusal to affirm "there is no Self" to Vachagotta (SN44.10) And "there is no self for me" being an inappropriate question (MN2) Buddha's refusal to be tied to all exists/doesn't exist, plurality, monism (SN12.48) and teaching D.O. (which is more of what is to be done, what is the root of suffering) makes me think that maybe Buddha's path is pragmatic path rather than being just another (among dozens) theory on how things truly are in themselves. Maybe one shouldn't overdo the philosophic & logic aspect of Dhamma. Maybe Dhamma is to be used simply as a raft to "reach" Nibbana? Anatta is great as a perception/recognition (anattasanna) to let go, but not as a dogmatic position being held. If there is no-Self, then no one is a killer and no one is killed? But even "without self" one still has to eat, and do this and that. Even the Buddha had to eat, and do various monks duties. The right view is most commonly defined as 4NT, and not as "there is no self for me". http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn51/sn51.015.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.010.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.048.than.html IMHO, With metta, Alex #113089 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/16/2011 8:54:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 16-jan-2011, om 14:30 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: Siilabbataa: in the dictionary: good works, ceremonial observance. > This is different from siilabbataa praamaasa: clinging to rites and > rituals, which is wrong practice. > ================================== > This strikes me as important, Nina. This is the first I've seen this > distinction made here. ------ N: We can attend ceremonies in the temple like a cremation service, with kusala cittas, even accompanied by sati and pa~n~naa. It all depends on the citta at that moment. One may also attend ceremonies with superstition, wishing to obtain something for oneself and this is a different matter. ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, of course, as regards superstition. When there is an activity for which there is no reason to believe that it can condition a useful result, to engage in it anyway is absurd. In regard to activities that *can* lead to self-improvement, however, that is another matter altogether. You speak of ceremonies. There are other activities to consider as well. One can examine sense-door objects with an eye towards knowing with wisdom and relinquishing attachment to them, or one can approach them with clinging, thinking of them as near-holy realities whose textual study is tantamount to liberation. There is nothing wrong with engaging in activities with the purpose of cultivating the mind and heart, and many activities do so, promoting relinquishment and weakening conceit. Activities that turn the mind towards equanimity and relinquishment and wisdom and loving kindness are useful, and we have no choice but to begin with them while still mired in ignorance, for that is where we are. And the Buddha taught engaging in such developmental activities again and again and again. He pointed out what is useful for one to do for his/her own improvement and never taught refraining from engaging in such activities. -------------------------------------------------------- Nina. ================================= With metta, Howard The Fleetingness of Life & the Urgency of Practice /Just as a dewdrop on the tip of a blade of grass quickly vanishes with the rising of the sun and does not stay long, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a dewdrop — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death. Just as when the rain-devas send rain in fat drops, and a bubble on the water quickly vanishes and does not stay long, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a water bubble — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death. Just as a line drawn in the water with a stick quickly vanishes and does not stay long, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a line drawn in the water with a stick — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death. Just as a river flowing down from the mountains, going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it, so that there is not a moment, an instant, a second where it stands still, but instead it goes & rushes & flows, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a river flowing down from the mountains — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death./ (From the Arakenanusasani Sutta) #113090 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:57 pm Subject: Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(2) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- On Thu, 6/1/11, Robert E wrote: > >Wow! Well you did reply instantly, and I was tempted to reply instantly back again -- in an attempt to imitate momentary dhammas -- but I decided to do a little research first so I wouldn't sound completely clueless, only partially clueless. :-) > .... > S: :-) I was impressed when I read your quotes on the ayatanas after some of your research. Unfortunately, that translation of ayatana as "base" confused me for the rest of my responses. I'll have to do some more research. I think I was referencing the "bases" rather than ayatanas, so I'm confused again... As I looked into ayatana to try to clarify a little better, I got even more confused. In Wikipedia they say that ayatana can be translated as sense base, sense organ, or sense sphere. This seems to reiterate the idea of ayatana as "base." Looks like I need a primer in sense bases, sense objects, inner and outer ayatanas, gross and subtle rupas and how they all fit together in the basic plan of things. Is there any way to structurally lay this out in simple terms? I am sure there is material in Useful Posts, but I would appreciate a source that gives the basic structure of the above elements without a lot of additional material. Once I get the idea, I'll be able to get into more detail again. Thanks, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = > > S: There are 28 rupas as you know. > > > > 12 of these rupas are referred to as gross, more apparent. These are the 7 rupas which are experienced by the sense cittas, i.e visible object, sound, smell, taste and the 3 tangible objects, i.e hardness/softness, temperature and motion, plus the 5 sense bases, i.e eye-base, ear-base etc. #113091 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:01 pm Subject: Re: Questions on Samatha. epsteinrob Hi Nina, Sarah, Kevin, Alex, All... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Kevin, Alex and other friends, > I think that Kevin had important questions on samatha and these are > questions many people have. I like to go into them and give some > additions. > ------- Yes, I'm so happy to see these being discussed - many of my favorite topics and issues. So many rich things to discuss! Kevin seems to have represented many of my views as well, so I followed the report of the discussion and your responses with a lot of interest. > S: Kevin's discussion with KS and myself (#109607). Kevin had asked > why the Buddha ad mentioned jhana "hundreds or thousands" of times if > there was no need to talk about jhana. KS replied by asking whether > among those who became enlightened, were there more who did so by > just developing vipassana or those who developed vipassana and > samatha (to jhana levels). The answer is by vipassana alone. > ------- > N: Yes, there is a Text in S I, which Robert K also mentioned in his > forum. Also we know from the Susima sutta and from the Puggala > Pa~n~natti that also people who did not develop jhaana attained by > dry insight. > But apart from this, I find it a relief that there are no rules, that > it all depends on the individual's accumulations when or whether he > develops jhaana. > --------- That is nice that you express it as a relief - I think it is very fitting to look at it in a personal and practical way. What is the path for us? What do we do? What has to be done? It is important to sort out what is necessary and what is not. It is hard for me to let go of the idea that jhana was not recommended by the Buddha and was not an important part of the path - I still think it was and is. It may be that in some lifetimes it is not the right life for jhana and one can't presume that they have to do it or not do it *now.* As you say, it is all about accumulations and conditions. Did people who did jhana seriously attain enlightenment in another lifetime, and was it partly dependent on the life in which they did do jhana? That is another possibility as well. But in any case it is clear that in a *given lifetime,* which is all most of us know, it may not be necessary for jhana in order to follow the path. But perhaps for others in that same lifetime it is. It may also be that one who attains through dry insight has done jhana previously and it is no longer remembered. > S: KS had previously mentioned that whilst developing vipassana, > there was no need for extra samatha and asked which was better - > samatha or vipassana. Kevin had suggested this implied "attachment to > vipassana or aversion for lower kusala" and that all kusala was good > and a support for wisdom. KS said that just samatha was not > understanding realities as not self, just knowing the difference > between kusala and akusala. If it were more, then those before the > Buddha could have attained the Path. We have to stress vipassana from > the beginning. And in terms of "what's better", think of suttas such > as the Anathapindika Sutta which stresses how much more valuable a > moment of anicca sanna, the understanding of the impermanence of > dhammas is, compared to sila, dana, metta and samatha of all kinds. > ------- > N: All perfections are needed, but each perfection has to be > developed together with right understanding of realities, otherwise > it is self, self, all the time. But I remember Kevin's words in > another post I found very refreshing, that he reminded people to > develop right understanding also when going to a retreat. > ---------- I think that is a good way to apply the need for insight and understanding - to say if you *are* going to do samatha practices, or formal practices developing sati, even if you think that is wrong practice, to simply say whatever you do, know that right understanding and right view are very important and don't forget that. Even those of us very committed to meditation of one kind or another can remember that and keep it in mind. It is also really the point as regards jhana too. Jhana in itself may not give insight, but it may be a fertile ground for insight, *if* one has remembered that mindfulness and right view can not be left out of the equation. I recall a number of passages that describe the correct Buddhist practice of jhana which includes looking at jhana with right mindfulness to understand the reality that it is, rather than just accepting it as a state in its own right. I wish we could have a good discussion of what jhana *can* do for the development of insight if it is used *correctly,* rather than always emphasizing that it is not good enough without insight. I think we all agree that jhana by itself does not complete the path, but there are definite Buddhist practices for making sure that jhana is attended with insight, rather than becoming an attachment to the deep absorption. Jhana includes many subtle states of refined rapture and happiness, so it is important not to get "stuck" in any of those pleasant states, but to keep looking with sati and investigation to understand the reality being experienced. > S: 9. Kevin's comments contd (2nd page of same post). > Kevin: ".. Then there can be kusala citta that wants to practice > samatha...." KS: "having more kusala in a day - the way to have more > samatha." What's the characteristic of sati? Anatta. There is no > understanding of anattaness of sati (when there's an idea of wanting > to practice samatha). Desire is lobha. > -------- > N: Some people misunderstand Kh Sujin's words and believe that she is > against samatha. We have to carefully consider what she means. She is > so concerned about it that people will practise samatha with an idea > of self, or with attachment. The deeper the spiritual state, the more important it may be to look for subtle self-view, and not see samatha or jhana as an escape from reality, but a way of going deeper with insight. > She said in other context: "KH S: This moment, what can understanding > know? If there is no understanding, can there be practising or > meditating? " > She also said that samatha and vipassana are developed together, that > they should not be separated. I have seen that in a number of places and I really agree with that. I see that combined development of samatha and vipassana in the structure of the anapanasati sutta, but the interpretation of the anapanasati sutta can sometimes emphasize other things. ... > S: 10. continuing. Anapanasati, practicing meditation, Vism > description, access concentration..... KS: "What for?" Do those who > develop samatha know about vitakka, vicara, piti, ekaggata and > upekkha from the beginning (not the names or theory)? One knows that > without vitakka about that particular object, it's impossible for > there to be more kusala factors of jhana. If there is no > understanding of vitakka to have that object more and more often by > seeing the benefit of that object to condition kusala at that moment. > Panna can condition more kusala by vitakka, touching the object. > ----- > N: Here it is stressed how difficult it is to know the jhaanafactors > of vitakka, etc. Not just their names. > ------- I like the emphasis on those factors of investigation. I imagine that if one does have the skill to investigate jhana with those factors of investigation it could lead to a remarkable development of understanding. > S: Kevin's comment about (Vism) counting the breaths and so on. KS > stressed the importance of panna understanding moments of kusala and > akusala. Kevin's comment questioning whether those who "practiced > samatha" in the suttas only had kusala moments. KS said that it seems > like life is different for those developing samatha and that it's not > daily, developing gradually. It doesn't mean we can have samatha of > that degree in a short time. It depends on accumulations and takes a > long time, aeons, for samatha to develop to that degree. > ------- > N: Here we see Kh Sujin's concern about people who think that samatha > is easy. If one takes for jhaana what is not jhaana it is dangerous. That is a good point. If one doesn't have remarkable patience, jhana is probably a bad idea. That patience, it seems to me, is developed through anapanasati of a simpler kind, not rushing to go to a deeper state. If it takes aeons to go beyond simple samatha and sati, then one should be content to do a simple practice for many lifetimes - if one has the inclination to do it in the first place - not have self-view rush towards a deeper state and in doing so increase unbalance. If one's inclination is to study and discuss Dhamma and develop understanding that way, one shouldn't feel pressed to do something else either. As you said, Nina, there are no rules, it depends on the moment and one's accumulations, so maybe there is a kind of instinct we can follow to do the right practice for each individual. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #113092 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Howard, and Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Why do breaches of ethics cause unfavorable rebirth? Because they are > akusala, no? Why are they akusala? Because they lead to akusala actions. > The term is not "thinking about breaking the precepts," or "breaking them > internally," but "breaking the precepts," which involves doing something; just > like "murder" is not a thought or intention, but the completion of the > action. I think I'm onto something here! :-) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Killing without intent, i.e., accidental killing - for example > inadvertently stepping on an ant or a surgeon making a fatal but unavoidable error > during surgery, is not murdering. An action is akusala if it is intended - > and intended to cause harm. The thought and intention are crucial to the > moral value of the act. I understand that intention is an important component of action, but it does make a difference what the action is as well. If I have a murderous impulses towards an ant and I kill it, it does not have the same kamma as the murderous impulses towards a person whom I kill. The intention may be the same, but the object of the actual action makes a difference. Likewise, if I accidentally kill someone or make a mistake which leads to their death in surgery, that is not only a different intention, it is also not the same action. We should not be confused into thinking that a similar action is the same action. If I kill someone by accident it is not even the same sort of action than if I kill someone by design. If one looks at the details of an accidental killing one will see a different path of action as well as intention than if one watches the progression towards murder. They are not the same. I am not denying the utmost importance of intention in determining the weight of kamma. My point from the very beginning has been that: a/ there is a world in which action takes place, whether we consider it real or imagined. b/ our intentions towards that world and it objects constitutes mental/intentional kamma. c/ our actions that are carried out in that world also have an impact on what kind of kamma is produced and what kind of vipaka will result in the future. This does not at all deny the great importance of intention as kamma. > > > =============== > > > I can agree with you to the extent that such involvements would > ultimately cause a kusala or akusala mental state, and that ultimately that is > what counts, but I will not agree that Buddha only specified mental kusala > and akusala because this is clearly not the case. > > > =============== > > > > J: I've not said that the Buddha specified only the mental states. > What I've said is that when he spoke about, for example, acts of generosity he > was referring to the acts of generosity performed *with kusala mental > states*, > > I agree that kusala mental states and kusala actions often go together. > That does not make the actions inconsequential. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Actions that are accidental are morally neutral. An important aside: > If one is engaged in an activity that one knows has the potential for > causing harm and yet one carries it out inattentively, without care and ignoring > the possibility of harm, that IS akusala. Knowingly engaging recklessly in > an activity dangerous to another is evil; the knowledge and willingness to > act wrongly *despite* knowing better makes the action willful. > -------------------------------------------------------------- I agree that there are various grades of intention and action and that the kamma is different in each case. But an accidental action, a careless action and an intentional action, accompanied by various emotional and mental factors, are also consequently different kinds of actions as well. Both the intention and action vary in those cases, if one looks at the conditionality of each case. Accidental killing, even if not one's fault, brings enormous remorse and emotional pain for the person who caused it. I wonder why that is? One doesn't walk away and have no "vipaka" just because it was unintentional. There is vipaka, but it is different. What in one's past kamma caused one to get involved in accidental killing? If one looks at the entire chain of events perhaps the kamma and resulting vipaka makes more sense. I don't think those intentional and unintentional actions can be isolated from the whole larger chain of kamma. > > Take for example the deeds known as kamma-patha (courses of action), > given as 10 akusala and 10 kusala (they are called 'courses of action' because > they can condition rebirth in woeful or pleasant planes). From > Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' again: > > > > *********************************** > > kamma-patha > > > > 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either > unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. > > well, still he does say actions. > > Why do actions condition *anything* if the only kusala is in the mental > state? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > All conditions have consequences. Are you saying that one's own action is a condition rather than something that is done? Even if one is distracted or engaged in an accident, one still has some part in it. If one had been more attentive or if one had been more perceptive, the same action would not have taken place. And why did one turn up there in the first place? Isn't that vipaka? > > I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): > > 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; > > 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; > > 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. > > Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of > defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful > thought of harming others, and pernicious views. > > And also, he specifies mental actions as a *separate category,* not as the > underlying defining factor of the other two cateogries, which are bodily > and verbal, *not* explicitly mental in nature. > > Why are there three separate categories of unwholesome acts, and why is > only *one* of those categories "mental?" > ------------------------------------------------------ > Why not? ;-) Not a question of "why not?," but "why?," though your humor is noted. :-) The point is clear: if mental actions that are unwholesome are listed separately from physical ones, then the physical actions are a valid category in their own right and can be graded as kusala or akusala. That is the question. Do you disagree? If so, then why is it a category without regard to intention? > > Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not > constitute 'courses of action'. > > > > II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): > > 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual > intercourse; > > 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, > foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; > > 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. > > > > Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A.X.28, 176; M.9; > > they are explained in detail in M.114, and in Com. to M.9 (R. Und., p. > 14), Atthasālini Tr. I, 126ff. > > *********************************** > > It seems to me that those lists make my point that mental factors are only > one aspect of akusala and not the sole determining factor in all akusala. > ------------------------------------------------------ > All these actions are ones involving intention and knowledge of their > harmfulness. a/ Not necessarily. b/ Even if they are, the actions being done are part of the akusala, not just the intention. > > > =============== > > > > > > If it were the case, Buddha could have said "do not cultivate thoughts > of hatred, and even if it is necessary to kill someone do so without any > thought of anger or hatred to keep it pure." He didn't say anything so > absurd. He said it is *not* okay to kill a living being, period, regardless of > mental state, good or ill. Do you not agree? Do we not torture ourselves > over killing an insect in the Buddhist community. Is it not considered > to *always* be akusala and carry negative kamma? Why is this so? > > > =============== > > > > J: To my understanding, taking the life of another being necessarily > involves some moments of akusala, and is one of the types of akusala kamma > patha (i.e., can condition rebirth in a lower plane). > > Sure, but the question is whether only the mental factor causes the > akusala and I am contending it is not. > > > > =============== > > > What if I end the life of someone who is suffering, out of compassion? > Is this considered kusala in Buddhism? I have a kusala mental state. Is > it okay with Buddha if I kill someone out of love? What's the kamma in > that case? > > > =============== > > > > J: As far as I'm aware, there's no mention in the texts of the > possibility of taking life with kusala. > > That's my point. It is akusala *regardless* of the intention and/or > mental state. > > Best, > Robert E. > > ================================= > With metta, > Howard > > > > "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, > speech, & intellect." > " _AN 6.63_ That is a good quote. What it signifies to me is that various forms of body, speech and intellect *are* the expressions of kamma and thus can be looked at as producing kamma. If an intention does not go so far as to become an action it is one kind of kamma, if it becomes action, it is another form or expression of kamma, and should be looked at in that light. The point is whether actions produce kamma. Even if you see them as expressions of intention, they still produce kamma in that way, and are not inconsequential. I am trying to distinguish the view that in doing an action there is an intention behind it, and that intention is more important than the action. An action, even if seen as having taken intention into a material form, represents the kamma in its own right once performed. We can look at actions as kusala or akusala based on that, as Buddha clearly did in his lists of right and wrong actions and courses of action. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113093 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:29 pm Subject: Re: Questions on Samatha. epsteinrob Hi Nina, and Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------- > N: I found the sutta: S.I,191, (Vangisa suttas) pavaranasutta, > Invitation. It is about five hundred arahats. The Buddha said: "There > is naught, Saariputta, for which I blame these five hundred brethren, > in deed or word. Of these brethren. sixty have threefold Lore, sixty > have sixfold supernormal knowledge, sixty are emancipated in both > ways, and the others are emancipated by insight [alone]." > I looked at Ven. Bodhi's translation and he gives a note (his own, > not from the commentary) that the last one means: without mastering > aruupa jhaana. I remember discussions on this subject and I do not > know what to add to this. > -------- Just a note on this with regard to K. Sujin's comment that more of Buddha's followers were enlightened by dry insight than by jhana. According to the math of the above, 180 of the arahants mentioned - apparently the main body of those with the Buddha at that time - were enlightened via the path with jhana, and an unspecified amount, mentioned as "the others," by insight alone. It seems that most of the arahants were enlightened by the path with jhana, and one could perhaps assume that this was the usual method of attainment. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #113094 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:30 pm Subject: Re: Questions on Samatha - Rob E. correction... epsteinrob Hi Nina, and Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------- > N: I found the sutta: S.I,191, (Vangisa suttas) pavaranasutta, > Invitation. It is about five hundred arahats. The Buddha said: "There > is naught, Saariputta, for which I blame these five hundred brethren, > in deed or word. Of these brethren. sixty have threefold Lore, sixty > have sixfold supernormal knowledge, sixty are emancipated in both > ways, and the others are emancipated by insight [alone]." > I looked at Ven. Bodhi's translation and he gives a note (his own, > not from the commentary) that the last one means: without mastering > aruupa jhaana. I remember discussions on this subject and I do not > know what to add to this. > -------- Just a note on this with regard to K. Sujin's comment that more of Buddha's followers were enlightened by dry insight than by jhana. According to the math of the above, 180 of the arahants mentioned - apparently the main body of those with the Buddha at that time - were enlightened via the path with jhana, and an unspecified amount, mentioned as "the others," by insight alone. It seems that most of the arahants were enlightened by the path with jhana, and one could perhaps assume that this was the usual method of attainment. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = Whoops, my mistake, my math is off. More arahants via insight alone - 320 out of 500. Oh well! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #113095 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Jon) - In a message dated 1/16/2011 3:38:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard, and Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Why do breaches of ethics cause unfavorable rebirth? Because they are > akusala, no? Why are they akusala? Because they lead to akusala actions. > The term is not "thinking about breaking the precepts," or "breaking them > internally," but "breaking the precepts," which involves doing something; just > like "murder" is not a thought or intention, but the completion of the > action. I think I'm onto something here! :-) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Killing without intent, i.e., accidental killing - for example > inadvertently stepping on an ant or a surgeon making a fatal but unavoidable error > during surgery, is not murdering. An action is akusala if it is intended - > and intended to cause harm. The thought and intention are crucial to the > moral value of the act. I understand that intention is an important component of action, but it does make a difference what the action is as well. If I have a murderous impulses towards an ant and I kill it, it does not have the same kamma as the murderous impulses towards a person whom I kill. The intention may be the same, but the object of the actual action makes a difference. ------------------------------------------------ The intention is NOT the same. In one case the intention is to kill an ant and in the other to kill a person. If, of course, one is a total lunatic and believes the person to be an ant, that is a different (and rather rare! LOL!) situation. ------------------------------------------------- Likewise, if I accidentally kill someone or make a mistake which leads to their death in surgery, that is not only a different intention, it is also not the same action. We should not be confused into thinking that a similar action is the same action. ----------------------------------------------------- Quite so. Unintentional activity is not kamma. ------------------------------------------------------ If I kill someone by accident it is not even the same sort of action than if I kill someone by design. ---------------------------------------------------- I quite agree. -------------------------------------------------- If one looks at the details of an accidental killing one will see a different path of action as well as intention than if one watches the progression towards murder. They are not the same. ---------------------------------------------------- Indeed. ----------------------------------------------- I am not denying the utmost importance of intention in determining the weight of kamma. -------------------------------------------------- And if there is no intention, there is no kamma. -------------------------------------------------- My point from the very beginning has been that: a/ there is a world in which action takes place, whether we consider it real or imagined. -------------------------------------------------- Agreed. ---------------------------------------------------- b/ our intentions towards that world and it objects constitutes mental/intentional kamma. ---------------------------------------------------- Agreed. --------------------------------------------------- c/ our actions that are carried out in that world also have an impact on what kind of kamma is produced and what kind of vipaka will result in the future. --------------------------------------------------------- The intention is the kamma. If it is strong enough to lead to action, it is weightier kamma. If the action is grave and known to be, then the kamma, i.e., the intention, is grave. -------------------------------------------------------- This does not at all deny the great importance of intention as kamma. --------------------------------------------------------- Intention IS kamma. -------------------------------------------------------- > > > =============== > > > I can agree with you to the extent that such involvements would > ultimately cause a kusala or akusala mental state, and that ultimately that is > what counts, but I will not agree that Buddha only specified mental kusala > and akusala because this is clearly not the case. > > > =============== > > > > J: I've not said that the Buddha specified only the mental states. > What I've said is that when he spoke about, for example, acts of generosity he > was referring to the acts of generosity performed *with kusala mental > states*, > > I agree that kusala mental states and kusala actions often go together. > That does not make the actions inconsequential. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Actions that are accidental are morally neutral. An important aside: > If one is engaged in an activity that one knows has the potential for > causing harm and yet one carries it out inattentively, without care and ignoring > the possibility of harm, that IS akusala. Knowingly engaging recklessly in > an activity dangerous to another is evil; the knowledge and willingness to > act wrongly *despite* knowing better makes the action willful. > -------------------------------------------------------------- I agree that there are various grades of intention and action and that the kamma is different in each case. But an accidental action, a careless action and an intentional action, accompanied by various emotional and mental factors, are also consequently different kinds of actions as well. ------------------------------------------------------- You see that to be so, because you recognize that it is intention that is kamma. ;-) Intentional action is inseparable from [Note to Ken and others: I said "inseparable from," and not "identical with"] the resultant action ----------------------------------------------------- Both the intention and action vary in those cases, if one looks at the conditionality of each case. Accidental killing, even if not one's fault, brings enormous remorse and emotional pain for the person who caused it. I wonder why that is? One doesn't walk away and have no "vipaka" just because it was unintentional. There is vipaka, but it is different. ----------------------------------------------------- There is regret and sadness. If there was inattention involved, and the person is a good person, there is also a feeling of guilt and remorse, and that IS vipaka. But if there was no inattention, the action being entirely accidental and unavoidable, there may still be regret. That would be a consequence, but not a kammic consequence. Of course, there could even in that latter case be guilt feelings due to mistaken thinking. ------------------------------------------------------ What in one's past kamma caused one to get involved in accidental killing? ------------------------------------------------------ This is too speculative for me. I can only discuss from my experience. ----------------------------------------------------- If one looks at the entire chain of events perhaps the kamma and resulting vipaka makes more sense. I don't think those intentional and unintentional actions can be isolated from the whole larger chain of kamma. > > Take for example the deeds known as kamma-patha (courses of action), > given as 10 akusala and 10 kusala (they are called 'courses of action' because > they can condition rebirth in woeful or pleasant planes). From > Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' again: > > > > *********************************** > > kamma-patha > > > > 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either > unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. > > well, still he does say actions. > > Why do actions condition *anything* if the only kusala is in the mental > state? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > All conditions have consequences. Are you saying that one's own action is a condition rather than something that is done? ----------------------------------------------------- I'm saying that one's actions consist of phenomena that, like all phenomena, serve as conditions. The action of slipping and falling involves movement of body parts, production of sound, and much, much more, all of which can be conditions for other events. Kamma need not be involved for there to be conditionality. ----------------------------------------------------- Even if one is distracted or engaged in an accident, one still has some part in it. If one had been more attentive or if one had been more perceptive, the same action would not have taken place. And why did one turn up there in the first place? Isn't that vipaka? ------------------------------------------------------ All phenomena, whether kamma, vipaka, or neither, serve as conditions. ----------------------------------------------------- > > I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): > > 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; > > 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; > > 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. > > Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of > defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful > thought of harming others, and pernicious views. > > And also, he specifies mental actions as a *separate category,* not as the > underlying defining factor of the other two cateogries, which are bodily > and verbal, *not* explicitly mental in nature. > > Why are there three separate categories of unwholesome acts, and why is > only *one* of those categories "mental?" > ------------------------------------------------------ > Why not? ;-) Not a question of "why not?," but "why?," though your humor is noted. :-) The point is clear: if mental actions that are unwholesome are listed separately from physical ones, then the physical actions are a valid category in their own right and can be graded as kusala or akusala. That is the question. Do you disagree? If so, then why is it a category without regard to intention? ------------------------------------------------------------ I really am not following you. Earthquakes and tsunamis are dreadful, but not unwholesome. A person spinning around suddenly at a loud noise and inadvertently breaking some expensive statuary is most unfortunate, but not unwholesome. Wholesomeness and the opposite pertain to intention and intention-based action. -------------------------------------------------- > > Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not > constitute 'courses of action'. > > > > II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): > > 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual > intercourse; > > 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, > foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; > > 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. > > > > Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A.X.28, 176; M.9; > > they are explained in detail in M.114, and in Com. to M.9 (R. Und., p. > 14), Atthasālini Tr. I, 126ff. > > *********************************** > > It seems to me that those lists make my point that mental factors are only > one aspect of akusala and not the sole determining factor in all akusala. > ------------------------------------------------------ > All these actions are ones involving intention and knowledge of their > harmfulness. a/ Not necessarily. b/ Even if they are, the actions being done are part of the akusala, not just the intention ------------------------------------------- Only because of the intention. --------------------------------------------- > > > =============== > > > > > > If it were the case, Buddha could have said "do not cultivate thoughts > of hatred, and even if it is necessary to kill someone do so without any > thought of anger or hatred to keep it pure." He didn't say anything so > absurd. He said it is *not* okay to kill a living being, period, regardless of > mental state, good or ill. Do you not agree? Do we not torture ourselves > over killing an insect in the Buddhist community. Is it not considered > to *always* be akusala and carry negative kamma? Why is this so? > > > =============== > > > > J: To my understanding, taking the life of another being necessarily > involves some moments of akusala, and is one of the types of akusala kamma > patha (i.e., can condition rebirth in a lower plane). > > Sure, but the question is whether only the mental factor causes the > akusala and I am contending it is not. > > > > =============== > > > What if I end the life of someone who is suffering, out of compassion? > Is this considered kusala in Buddhism? I have a kusala mental state. Is > it okay with Buddha if I kill someone out of love? What's the kamma in > that case? > > > =============== > > > > J: As far as I'm aware, there's no mention in the texts of the > possibility of taking life with kusala. > > That's my point. It is akusala *regardless* of the intention and/or > mental state. > > Best, > Robert E. > > ================================= > With metta, > Howard > > > > "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, > speech, & intellect." > â€" _AN 6.63_ That is a good quote. What it signifies to me is that various forms of body, speech and intellect *are* the expressions of kamma and thus can be looked at as producing kamma. --------------------------------------------- Some are; some are not. -------------------------------------------- If an intention does not go so far as to become an action it is one kind of kamma, if it becomes action, it is another form or expression of kamma, and should be looked at in that light. --------------------------------------------- I quite agree! --------------------------------------------- The point is whether actions produce kamma. ------------------------------------------- ??? -------------------------------------------- Even if you see them as expressions of intention, they still produce kamma in that way, and are not inconsequential. ------------------------------------------- Actions have consequences. If the actions are kammic, among the consequences is vipaka. If the actions are not kammic, they still have consequences. All phenomena have consequences. ------------------------------------------- I am trying to distinguish the view that in doing an action there is an intention behind it, and that intention is more important than the action. An action, even if seen as having taken intention into a material form, represents the kamma in its own right once performed. We can look at actions as kusala or akusala based on that, as Buddha clearly did in his lists of right and wrong actions and courses of action. --------------------------------------------- I'm not sure whether this indicates agreement or disagreement between us on this matter! ;-) -------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113096 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:18 pm Subject: Floated by Joy :-)! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Joy (Pîti) Link to Awakening! The Joy Link to Awakening (Pīti-sambojjhanga) has the characteristic of suffusing contentment, and the property of gladdening satisfaction. This Joy Link to Awakening manifests as mental elation, which can reach five successively increasing degrees of intensity: 1: Minor Joy, which can raise the hair on the body when thrilled. 2: Momentary Joy, which is flashing like lightning at various occasions. 3: Showering Joy, which breaks over the body repeatedly like sea-waves. 4: Uplifting Joy, which can be strong enough to even levitate the body. 5: Pervading Joy, which is like a heavy sponge all saturated with water. Visuddhimagga IV 94-9 The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (āsava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Joy Link to Awakening based on seclusion, on disillusion, on ceasing, & culminating in relinquishment, then neither can any mental fermentation, nor any fever, or discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one who has aroused enthusiastic energy, there arises a joy not of this world & the Joy Link to Awakening emerges there. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] Any one convinced by understanding of Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, gets an enthusiastic sense of the sublime good goal of Nibbāna & gains gladness connected, joined, and fused with this Dhamma! In any one gladdened, Joy is born. The body of the Joyous is calmed. One of calm body experiences pleasure and happiness! The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. The concentrated mind sees and knows things as they really are. This brings disgust and disillusion, which enables full, and direct experience of mental release. It is in this way that Joy indeed is a factor leading to Awakening! MN [i 37-8], AN [iii 21-3], DN [iii 21-3] <...> On the 7 links to Awakening (Sambojjhanga): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_7_Links_to_Awakening.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <...> #113097 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the khandhas. was:A lovely dream ... epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > > >> I am a little confused how sati can "experience" visible object > >> separate from the moment of seeing. Through what means would the > >> object be accessible to sati separately from seeing? I would think > >> that sati would only become aware of the object *in* the act of > >> seeing, at that moment. I mean, the visible object does not have a > >> citta in contact with it until seeing takes place, does it? And > >> wouldn't sati be a cetasika of a citta that is aware of seeing the > >> visible object? > >> > > KO: at the moment of seeing, there is no sati, only the seven > universal cetasikas. Sati could only arise at the javana stage of the sense > process of seeing. for the whole sense process, the object is visible object > and not otherwise. Citta is the one that experience an object, sati arise with > citta can known the object since citta already experience it. Even if one is > mindful of an object, does not mean panna will arise. Panna only arise when > there is understanding of not self in that object. One example is that one > could understand seeing sees and accompany by the understanding that I cannot > see or there is no I in seeing. Mindfulness of an object does not guarantee > salvation because mindfulness only mindful of an object and does not know the > nature of not self in an object. Thanks, Ken O. That is a helpful explanation. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #113098 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > >> > >> (112824) > >> > If I help someone who is suffering and my motives are bad, sure that will > >>spoil the "goodness" of the act for me. But isn't it still kusala that the > >>suffering was ended in that case? I am not sure that there is not an aspect of > > >>kusala even to an akusala motive, if the act has a positive consequence. I will > > > >>say that I am unsure about this. > > >> > >> > What if I end the life of someone who is suffering, out of compassion? > >>Is > >> > >>this considered kusala in Buddhism? I have a kusala mental state. Is it okay > >>with Buddha if I kill someone out of love? What's the kamma in that case? > >> > =============== > > > KO: At the moment of deed, if the volition is bad, then is it bad. Thinking of > the deed as good after because one end other suffering, is another moment. > thinking of one bad action cause less pain to others, does not mean it is good. > Just like some believe in compassionate killing. To Thervada, as long as there > is an act of killing, that is the act of bad deed. Even if one think one has > help the other guy to lessen his suffering, does not negate the fact there was > an act of killing. And grief is the near enemy of compassion. Some mix up > their compassion with grief. When one cannot bear the suffering of others, it > could be grief and not compassion, And grief is dosa rooted. thinking grief as > a moral value or an act of compassion, one commit the act. which in the end are > just all akusala. Well, that is my question. Several folks here are saying that only intention is kamma, and that actions are neither kusala or akusala in themselves. I have been saying that actions also are kusala or akusala, not just mental state or intention. If killing is *always* bad, no matter what the intention, then the *act* is akusala, not only the intention. That is what we have been arguing about. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #113099 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:30 am Subject: Re: Concepts vs reality: Numbers & arithmetic operations epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > > Hi Alex, > > <. . .> > A: > I knew that. I just wanted to know what others think and get the discussion started. > > > > > > That numbers are concepts, and are different from realities, brings certain questions like: > > > > 1) "isn't the amount of cittas happening per second, or their duration a conceptual statement?" > > > > 2) And by being conceptual, does it make it any less real? > > > -------------------------------- > > KH: I'm with you on this one, Alex. I have often argued with Robert E and others that the anicca characteristic of dhammas is not a conclusion drawn from observations over time. The anicca characteristic is a property that lies inherently in the dhamma itself. Nice try, Ken. Different point. ;-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113100 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:09 am Subject: Re: thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc epsteinrob Hi Ken H, and Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > ----------- > <. . .> > A: > Its the practice that makes it unique. Most religions are "believe X and heaven is guaranteed". For most Xtians, for example, the practice is to go to church once a week, pray for forgiveness for the sins, and celebrate various religious holidays. > ------------ > > That's debateable. I would argue that people of all religions believe they should practise what they preach. A completely different meaning, out of context, which does not refer to "practice" in the Buddhist sense, but "doing things according to the scriptures." > Buddhism is no different in that regard. Only in that same dimension of doing good and not doing bad, but that is not the unique practice in Buddhism - investigation of the nature of self, mind and sensory experience is. > The original form of Buddhism, however, taught there was belief and practice, but no believer and no practicer. That is still true for most serious forms of Buddhism, including especially zen which you most likely despise, but has more in common with your philosophy than you are aware of. As for Abhidhamma, it is one thing to repeat a pet phrase over and over again, and another, as KS points out frequently, to understand what it means in the actual arising of dhammas in the moment. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #113101 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: sabhaava, was The clansman... epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: The storehouse consciousness suggests something that stays, or > another citta, subconsciousness, together with the citta that > experiences objects that are impinging. Perhaps all sorts of ideas > existed at that time and nowadays. The main problem must be: how is > it that there can be accumulations of tendencies and of kamma whereas > whatever arises is impermanent? People have often questions about > that and this is understandable. Yes, I have had some questions about this, and understand the idea that the accumulations are passed on from citta to citta. It does seem rather awkward to have so much accumulation passed on in every fleeting moment, but I guess that is the way it is explained. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #113102 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Nina & Alex) - In a message dated 1/16/2011 4:29:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Nina, and Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------- > N: I found the sutta: S.I,191, (Vangisa suttas) pavaranasutta, > Invitation. It is about five hundred arahats. The Buddha said: "There > is naught, Saariputta, for which I blame these five hundred brethren, > in deed or word. Of these brethren. sixty have threefold Lore, sixty > have sixfold supernormal knowledge, sixty are emancipated in both > ways, and the others are emancipated by insight [alone]." > I looked at Ven. Bodhi's translation and he gives a note (his own, > not from the commentary) that the last one means: without mastering > aruupa jhaana. I remember discussions on this subject and I do not > know what to add to this. > -------- Just a note on this with regard to K. Sujin's comment that more of Buddha's followers were enlightened by dry insight than by jhana. According to the math of the above, 180 of the arahants mentioned - apparently the main body of those with the Buddha at that time - were enlightened via the path with jhana, and an unspecified amount, mentioned as "the others," by insight alone. It seems that most of the arahants were enlightened by the path with jhana, and one could perhaps assume that this was the usual method of attainment. ------------------------------------------------------------- ALL of them attained jhanas. To be emancipated " by insight" means that formless attainments were not achieved; it does not mean that no jhanas were attained. ------------------------------------------------------------ Best, Robert E. ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113103 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: should one try one's best? epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I am trying to distinguish the view that in doing an action there is an > intention behind it, and that intention is more important than the action. > An action, even if seen as having taken intention into a material form, > represents the kamma in its own right once performed. We can look at actions > as kusala or akusala based on that, as Buddha clearly did in his lists of > right and wrong actions and courses of action. > --------------------------------------------- > I'm not sure whether this indicates agreement or disagreement between > us on this matter! ;-) > -------------------------------------------- Who can tell? ;-) An interesting discussion in any case. Believe it or not, it is gradually becoming clearer for me. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113104 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. epsteinrob Hi Howard, and Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert (and Nina & Alex) - > > In a message dated 1/16/2011 4:29:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > Hi Nina, and Alex. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > ------- > > N: I found the sutta: S.I,191, (Vangisa suttas) pavaranasutta, > > Invitation. It is about five hundred arahats. The Buddha said: "There > > is naught, Saariputta, for which I blame these five hundred brethren, > > in deed or word. Of these brethren. sixty have threefold Lore, sixty > > have sixfold supernormal knowledge, sixty are emancipated in both > > ways, and the others are emancipated by insight [alone]." > > I looked at Ven. Bodhi's translation and he gives a note (his own, > > not from the commentary) that the last one means: without mastering > > aruupa jhaana. I remember discussions on this subject and I do not > > know what to add to this. > > -------- > > Just a note on this with regard to K. Sujin's comment that more of > Buddha's followers were enlightened by dry insight than by jhana. According to > the math of the above, 180 of the arahants mentioned - apparently the main > body of those with the Buddha at that time - were enlightened via the path > with jhana, and an unspecified amount, mentioned as "the others," by insight > alone. It seems that most of the arahants were enlightened by the path > with jhana, and one could perhaps assume that this was the usual method of > attainment. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > ALL of them attained jhanas. To be emancipated " by insight" means > that formless attainments were not achieved; it does not mean that no jhanas > were attained. > ------------------------------------------------------------ There appears to be a difference of opinion here between your interpretation and that of the commentary in this case. I am inclined to think as you do, yet there seem to be references to attainment by way of dry insight w/o jhana. Do you disagree with this in general, or only in this case that is cited? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #113105 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 17-jan-2011, om 6:09 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > As for Abhidhamma, it is one thing to repeat a pet phrase over and > over again, and another, as KS points out frequently, to understand > what it means in the actual arising of dhammas in the moment. ------- N: Hear, hear! Nina. #113106 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. nilovg Hi Howard and Rob E, Op 17-jan-2011, om 6:13 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > ALL of them attained jhanas. To be emancipated " by insight" means > that formless attainments were not achieved; it does not mean that > no jhanas > were attained. ------- N: I remember debates about this before. About the eight attainmenrts which, as I understand, include ruupa jhaana and aruupa jhana. I refer to "The Jhaanas", by Ven. Henepola Gunaratana, Wheel 151/353. See dsg archives, Useful Posts, search function jhaanas. Endless debates. I would like to refer again to Yasa and his friends: No mention about jhaanas. Not only Yasa but many friends. ------ Nina. #113107 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Devas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 16-jan-2011, om 11:37 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > yes, as you says the devas cannot make our own work. But knowing > the deva-types > who can be perceivable by sense-organ is not a useless knowledge. > It can be a help to understand what is existence and dukkha. Well, > now we > perceive animals and sometimes this is quite helpful. > > You know, there is the scientific fact when the mind cannot accept > some thing, > then that thing can remain invisible to him. Is this not ignorance > and dukkha? -------- N: The only way to have less ignorance is understanding the present reality, that what appears at this moment. Do you see devas now? It is most useful to know seeing as it is: only the experience of what is visible. Without eyesense and visible object there cannot be seeing. Nobody can cause the arising of seeing, it arises depending on conditions, it is the result of past kamma. Seeing is different from thinking which arises on account of what has been seen. We are usually lost in stories about devas, humans, animals. What is seen is not a being, not a person, not an animal. ----- Nina. #113108 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 17-jan-2011, om 6:09 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > As for Abhidhamma, it is one thing to repeat a pet phrase over and > > over again, and another, as KS points out frequently, to understand > > what it means in the actual arising of dhammas in the moment. > ------- > N: Hear, hear! > > Nina. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #113109 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/17/2011 12:36:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: > Hi Nina, and Alex. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > ------- > > N: I found the sutta: S.I,191, (Vangisa suttas) pavaranasutta, > > Invitation. It is about five hundred arahats. The Buddha said: "There > > is naught, Saariputta, for which I blame these five hundred brethren, > > in deed or word. Of these brethren. sixty have threefold Lore, sixty > > have sixfold supernormal knowledge, sixty are emancipated in both > > ways, and the others are emancipated by insight [alone]." > > I looked at Ven. Bodhi's translation and he gives a note (his own, > > not from the commentary) that the last one means: without mastering > > aruupa jhaana. I remember discussions on this subject and I do not > > know what to add to this. > > -------- > > Just a note on this with regard to K. Sujin's comment that more of > Buddha's followers were enlightened by dry insight than by jhana. According to > the math of the above, 180 of the arahants mentioned - apparently the main > body of those with the Buddha at that time - were enlightened via the path > with jhana, and an unspecified amount, mentioned as "the others," by insight > alone. It seems that most of the arahants were enlightened by the path > with jhana, and one could perhaps assume that this was the usual method of > attainment. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > ALL of them attained jhanas. To be emancipated "by insight" means > that formless attainments were not achieved; it does not mean that no jhanas > were attained. > ------------------------------------------------------------ There appears to be a difference of opinion here between your interpretation and that of the commentary in this case. I am inclined to think as you do, yet there seem to be references to attainment by way of dry insight w/o jhana. Do you disagree with this in general, or only in this case that is cited? ----------------------------------------------------------- From other reading, I understand "emancipation by insight (alone)" to refer to liberation via the full practice except for the formless attainments. In any case, the 4 jhanas constitute "right concentration," and that is an integral part of the path to awakening. There is no awakening w/o jhana, and thus "emancipation by insight (alone)" cannot exclude it. As regards the Susima Sutta that was previously mentioned (by Nina, I think), jhana attainment was not excluded there with regard to emancipation by discernment. What was excluded were the formless attainments, "the formless states beyond form." -------------------------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. ====================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113110 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Robert) - In a message dated 1/17/2011 1:57:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Rob E, Op 17-jan-2011, om 6:13 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > ALL of them attained jhanas. To be emancipated " by insight" means > that formless attainments were not achieved; it does not mean that > no jhanas > were attained. ------- N: I remember debates about this before. About the eight attainmenrts which, as I understand, include ruupa jhaana and aruupa jhana. I refer to "The Jhaanas", by Ven. Henepola Gunaratana, Wheel 151/353. See dsg archives, Useful Posts, search function jhaanas. Endless debates. I would like to refer again to Yasa and his friends: No mention about jhaanas. Not only Yasa but many friends. ------ Nina. ==================================== With respect: Not mentioning the jhanas does not constitute excluding them. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113111 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > From other reading, I understand "emancipation by insight (alone)" to > refer to liberation via the full practice except for the formless > attainments. In any case, the 4 jhanas constitute "right concentration," and that is > an integral part of the path to awakening. There is no awakening w/o > jhana, and thus "emancipation by insight (alone)" cannot exclude it. > As regards the Susima Sutta that was previously mentioned (by Nina, I > think), jhana attainment was not excluded there with regard to emancipation > by discernment. What was excluded were the formless attainments, "the > formless states beyond form." > -------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for your view and information on this important topic, one that I am very interested in. I have felt for some time that jhana was essential to the full realization of the path. However I find that conceptually I cannot seem to get the full picture of how jhana facilitates the deeper insight that allows the practitioner to reach full enlightenment. What is the role in your view of Right Concentration on the path to full awakening? At what point and in what way to see it forming the necessary bridge beyond the insight that is gained through satipatthana without jhana? Do you have a sense of how and when this takes place? I would like to know why jhana is necessary and what exactly it adds that is indispensible. I would guess it has something to do with the deeper state of concentration which has played a major role in every enlightenment tradition, as well as the suppression of the ordinary distractions and defilements, but I would like a clearer idea of how this works. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113112 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/17/2011 9:07:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > From other reading, I understand "emancipation by insight (alone)" to > refer to liberation via the full practice except for the formless > attainments. In any case, the 4 jhanas constitute "right concentration," and that is > an integral part of the path to awakening. There is no awakening w/o > jhana, and thus "emancipation by insight (alone)" cannot exclude it. > As regards the Susima Sutta that was previously mentioned (by Nina, I > think), jhana attainment was not excluded there with regard to emancipation > by discernment. What was excluded were the formless attainments, "the > formless states beyond form." > -------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for your view and information on this important topic, one that I am very interested in. I have felt for some time that jhana was essential to the full realization of the path. However I find that conceptually I cannot seem to get the full picture of how jhana facilitates the deeper insight that allows the practitioner to reach full enlightenment. What is the role in your view of Right Concentration on the path to full awakening? At what point and in what way to see it forming the necessary bridge beyond the insight that is gained through satipatthana without jhana? Do you have a sense of how and when this takes place? I would like to know why jhana is necessary and what exactly it adds that is indispensible. I would guess it has something to do with the deeper state of concentration which has played a major role in every enlightenment tradition, as well as the suppression of the ordinary distractions and defilements, but I would like a clearer idea of how this w orks. Best, ================================== I have little detail to provide on this. With regard to jhana fostering insight, there is SN 22.5 in which includes Also, as I recall there are several suttas in the AN that show "concentration" as requisite for development of mindfulness and liberating wisdom, and there are numerous suttas that show calm and insight, attained either in-tandem or one after the other, as required. (See, for example, AN 4.170.) Another teaching to consider is the following: __________________________________ Path to Full Awakening /Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward./ (From the Kimattha Sutta) ---------------------------------------------- Another example is the first sutta in the book of tens in the AN, that I diagram as follows: Virtuous ways of conduct -> Non-remorse -> Gladness -> Joy -> Serenity -> Happiness -> Concentration of the mind -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113113 From: Vince Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Devas cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > Seeing is different from thinking which arises on account of what has > been seen. We are usually lost in stories about devas, humans, > animals. What is seen is not a being, not a person, not an animal. you right; only nama and rupa. There is no being here and now neither no being to be awakened. If already we know this, Why not leave the pursue of sense-pleasure meanwhile is not time to death?. Look that touching, seeing, smelling... to be leave in these pleasures and enjoy this. And when the world becomes not pleasurable then we can remember this is just nama and rupa. All the beings and oneself are not what seem to be, and finally the truth is impossible to share. World is designed to remain in lies and crime and one cannot do nothing at all. We see how people is killed and contaminated mental and physically but ok... this is sometimes a nightmare and we can understand what happens: there is suffering but finally not being behind all that. That's simply kamma results happening now. So, Why the rest of the effort?. In example, Why not transform this list in a cooking-recipes group?. Why you talk with me about Dhamma?. Why Sujin don't go to Koh-Muk and forget all this effort? My question is about wisdom, and if one need to rescue the human, the deva, the animal...etc As always. If this is part of understanding or perhaps not, or not in that way. What do you think? best, Vince. #113114 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 17-jan-2011, om 14:57 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > From other reading, I understand "emancipation by insight (alone)" to > refer to liberation via the full practice except for the formless > attainments. In any case, the 4 jhanas constitute "right > concentration," and that is > an integral part of the path to awakening. There is no awakening w/o > jhana, and thus "emancipation by insight (alone)" cannot exclude it. > As regards the Susima Sutta that was previously mentioned (by Nina, I > think), jhana attainment was not excluded there with regard to > emancipation > by discernment. What was excluded were the formless attainments, "the > formless states beyond form." ------- N: We are repeating old debates, but I do not mind. Again, I requote a previous post re writing of Ven. Henepola. ------ We read in the Wheel 351-353, The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation, by Ven. Henepola Gunaratana, p. 70: end quote. If we go back to the Sutta, we see that the Buddha taught Susima the three characteristics of realities, beginning with, , and after that the Dependent Origination. In the Commentary it was said that the monks were nijjhaanakaa sukkhavipassakaa: here we see the meaning of contemplation in the sense of contemplation of the three characteristics in vipassana, as was previously brought forward by Robert and also by me: two meanings of nijjhaana (also the term upanijjhaana is used in other texts) or jhaana. We read in the Commentary, that the Buddha said to Susima that the Path, magga and the Fruition, phala, are not the result of concentration, samadhi, but that they are the result of vipassana. After the Buddhas teaching Susima became an arahat. The Buddha did not teach him to attain jhana first. It is also said, in the beginning of the Sutta that there were many monks with the Buddha. Thus, many monks were sukkhavipassaka. I do not deny that in many Suttas the Buddha praised jhana, but to whom did he speak? To people who had accumulations for it. I quoted the Susima Sutta to show that it is not absolutely necessary for everybody to first develop a high degree of concentration and then vipassana. The question, atikamma ruupe aaruppaa te kayena phusitva ... transcending rupajjhana and remaining in arupajjhana, (kaya is here mental body, citta and cetasika) one could interprete it in different ways: have you attained arupajhana after having attained rupajjhana: have you both jhanas, no is the answer. What does it mean? We have neither, or, we have rupajhana but not arupajhana, and the latter possibility Ven. Thanissaro finds plausible. Then we should read the whole sutta and commentary, and draw our conclusion. Incidentally, according to Ven. Hennepola, there are five groups of pa~n~naavimutta, and one of these is dry insight, four have attained rupajhana. --------- Nina. #113115 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. nilovg Op 17-jan-2011, om 15:05 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > With respect: Not mentioning the jhanas does not constitute excluding > them. -------- N: All we can do is looking at the context. Nina. #113116 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. truth_aerator Hello RobE, Howard, all, > > attainment. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > ALL of them attained jhanas. To be emancipated " by insight" means > > that formless attainments were not achieved; it does not mean that no jhanas > > were attained. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > There appears to be a difference of opinion here between your interpretation and that of the commentary in this case. I am inclined to think as you do, yet there seem to be references to attainment by way of dry insight w/o jhana. Do you disagree with this in general, or only in this case that is cited? > > Best, > Robert E. > > = = = = = = = = = = > As I understand commentarial position, the moment of becoming awakened is a sort of a transcendental jhana moment that takes Nibbana "as object". So all achieve Jhana. It is a matter of who had "mundane" jhana and who didn't. Thats my understanding. With metta, Alex #113117 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:25 pm Subject: The Tathagata! bhikkhu5 Friends: The One thus come & thus gone! The Buddha once explained: Bhikkhus, this world has been fully understood by the Tathagata. The Tathagata is completely released from this world. The origin of this world has been fully understood by the Tathagata. The origin of this world has been completely abandoned by the Tathagata. The ceasing of this world has been fully understood by the Tathagata. The ceasing of this world has been completely realized by the Tathagata. The way leading to the ceasing of this world has been fully understood by the Tathagata and this way has been completely developed by the Tathagata. Bhikkhus, in the world with its devas, maras, and brahmas, with its recluses and priests, among humankind with its princes and people, whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought, and reflected upon by the mind, all that is fully understood by the Tathagata. It is therefore he is called the Tathagata. Bhikkhus, from the night when the Tathagata awakened to this unsurpassable perfect enlightenment & until the night, when he passes away into the Nibbana-element with no trace left, whatever he speaks, says, and explains all that is true, correct, just and exactly so and not otherwise at all! It is therefore he is called the Tathagata. As the Tathagata says, so he does. As the Tathagata does, so he says. It is therefore he is called the Tathagata. In the world with its devas, maras, and brahmas, with its recluses and priests, among humankind with its princes and people, the Tathagata is the conqueror, the undefeated, the all-seeing, the wielder of power. It is therefore he is called the Tathagata! Itivuttaka 112 Full text here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.4.106-112x.irel.html#iti- 112 Comments: The designation Tathagata has 2 (contracted) meanings: Tatha + gata = Thus come (to Enlightenment) Tath + agata = Thus gone (beyond to Nibbana) <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam hita _/\_ * <...> #113118 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:25 am Subject: Re: thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc kenhowardau Hi Howard (Nina and Alex), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina (and Alex, and Ken) - > > In a message dated 1/16/2011 5:38:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > N: Siilabbataa: in the dictionary: good works, ceremonial observance. > This is different from siilabbataa praamaasa: clinging to rites and > rituals, which is wrong practice. > ================================== > This strikes me as important, Nina. This is the first I've seen this > distinction made here. ------------ KH: I think that's the first time I have seen siilabbataa used separately from siilabbataa praamaasa too. However, it doesn't make any important changes to my understanding of things. --------------- H: > Some others, I think of KenH in particular, seem to think that *all* intentional activities, and especially ceremonial observances, meditating, guarding the senses etc are harmful and are wrong practice. ------------------------ That's a fair appraisal of what I think, but it depends on your meaning of 'intentional.' Actions can be intentional as distinct from accidental, but they can't be intentional as distinct from conditioned. The view that anything can be intentional as distinct from conditioned is wrong view, and forms part of wrong practice. As soon as any activity - including, for example, good works ceremonial observances and Dhamma-study - becomes regarded as intentional as distinct from conditioned, it becomes a "rite or ritual." According to my understanding, a sotopanna can't have wrong view (the first fetter), and so he can't believe in the efficacy of concepts. He can still have lobha for many things, but he can't have 'lobha for rites and rituals' (the third fetter). Ken H #113119 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:07 am Subject: Silabbata. Part of the path. AN 3.78 truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, > KH: I think that's the first time I have seen siilabbataa used >separately from siilabbataa praamaasa too. However, it doesn't make >any important changes to my understanding of things. It is the crucial thing. It is one thing to do something with or without clinging. Silabbata is required for Awakening. But, if one doesn't hold it as supreme or cling to it. > That's a fair appraisal of what I think, but it depends on your >meaning of 'intentional.' Actions can be intentional as distinct >from accidental, but they can't be intentional as distinct from >conditioned. Right. Meditation happens due to causes and conditions. It is not self. It happens only when the right conditions are there. But it *does* occur. It is important. It is part of the path. > As soon as any activity - including, for example, good works >ceremonial observances and Dhamma-study - becomes regarded as >intentional as distinct from conditioned, it becomes a "rite or >ritual." And rites & rituals (silabbata) is a required step. You can't walk up to 4th floor without going through 1st, 2nd and 3rd. >KH:According to my understanding, a sotopanna can't have wrong view >(the first fetter), and so he can't believe in the efficacy of >concepts. Wrong views and silabbata do not have to go hand in hand. "But when by following a life of precept & practice (Silabbata), a life, a holy life that is followed as of essential worth one's unskillful mental qualities decline while one's skillful mental qualities increase: that sort of precept & practice, life, holy life that is followed as of essential worth is fruitful." That is what Ven. Ananda said, and the Teacher approved." - AN 3.78 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.078.than.html With metta, Alex #113120 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:23 am Subject: Re: Questions on Samatha. epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Another example is the first sutta in the book of tens in the AN, that I > diagram as follows: > > Virtuous ways of conduct > -> > Non-remorse > -> > Gladness > -> > Joy > -> > Serenity > -> > Happiness > -> > Concentration of the mind > -> > Knowledge and vision of things as they really are > -> > Revulsion and dispassion > -> > Knowledge and vision of liberation. Thanks, Howard. I found these quotes very helpful. Gives me some directions in which to look. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #113121 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello RobE, Howard, all, > > > > > attainment. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ALL of them attained jhanas. To be emancipated " by insight" means > > > that formless attainments were not achieved; it does not mean that no jhanas > > > were attained. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > There appears to be a difference of opinion here between your interpretation and that of the commentary in this case. I am inclined to think as you do, yet there seem to be references to attainment by way of dry insight w/o jhana. Do you disagree with this in general, or only in this case that is cited? > > > > Best, > > Robert E. > > > > = = = = = = = = = = > > > > > As I understand commentarial position, the moment of becoming awakened is a sort of a transcendental jhana moment that takes Nibbana "as object". So all achieve Jhana. It is a matter of who had "mundane" jhana and who didn't. > > Thats my understanding. Can one have highly absorptive concentration without jhana? If one attains a sort of instant jhana at the moment of awakening, I guess that would check the jhana box, but it does not seem like the development of right concentration that the Buddha normally spoke of. Am I wrong about that? Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - #113122 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thoughts about the path, not-Self strategy, etc upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Nina & Alex) - In a message dated 1/17/2011 9:25:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard (Nina and Alex), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina (and Alex, and Ken) - > > In a message dated 1/16/2011 5:38:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > N: Siilabbataa: in the dictionary: good works, ceremonial observance. > This is different from siilabbataa praamaasa: clinging to rites and > rituals, which is wrong practice. > ================================== > This strikes me as important, Nina. This is the first I've seen this > distinction made here. ------------ KH: I think that's the first time I have seen siilabbataa used separately from siilabbataa praamaasa too. However, it doesn't make any important changes to my understanding of things. --------------- H: > Some others, I think of KenH in particular, seem to think that *all* intentional activities, and especially ceremonial observances, meditating, guarding the senses etc are harmful and are wrong practice. ------------------------ That's a fair appraisal of what I think, but it depends on your meaning of 'intentional.' Actions can be intentional as distinct from accidental, but they can't be intentional as distinct from conditioned. The view that anything can be intentional as distinct from conditioned is wrong view, and forms part of wrong practice. ------------------------------------------------------ I agree with you on this, Ken. ------------------------------------------------------ As soon as any activity - including, for example, good works ceremonial observances and Dhamma-study - becomes regarded as intentional as distinct from conditioned, it becomes a "rite or ritual." ------------------------------------------------------- I don't know whether that is what it becomes, but it certainly becomes misunderstood. ------------------------------------------------------ According to my understanding, a sotopanna can't have wrong view (the first fetter), and so he can't believe in the efficacy of concepts. He can still have lobha for many things, but he can't have 'lobha for rites and rituals' (the third fetter). Ken H ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113123 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:07 am Subject: Re: Concepts vs reality: Numbers & arithmetic operations kenhowardau Hi Robert E and Alex, ---- <. . .> A: >>> > > 1) "isn't the amount of cittas happening per second, or their > > duration a conceptual statement?" > > > > 2) And by being conceptual, does it make it any less real? > > > -------------------------------- > KH: >> > I'm with you on this one, Alex. I have often argued with Robert E > and others that the anicca characteristic of dhammas is not a > conclusion drawn from observations over time. The anicca > characteristic is a property that lies inherently in the dhamma > itself. RE: > Nice try, Ken. Different point. ;-) ---- KH: With me it's always the same point: The only thing that can be known with right understanding is a presently arisen dhamma-arammana. Concepts of change are just like concepts of people and devas, they are just stories. They can't be known with right understanding. Ken H #113124 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. nilovg Dear Alex, Rob E, Op 17-jan-2011, om 17:59 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > As I understand commentarial position, the moment of becoming > awakened is a sort of a transcendental jhana moment that takes > Nibbana "as object". So all achieve Jhana. It is a matter of who > had "mundane" jhana and who didn't. ------- N:Right. Also those who did not develop mundane jhaana, experience nibbaana at the moment of enlightenment with pa~n~naa accompanied by samaadhi that has the same degree of strength as the first jhaana. This is because nibbaana is the object. ------ Nina. #113125 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. nilovg Dear Rob E (and Howard), Op 17-jan-2011, om 15:07 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Rob to Howard: At what point and in what way to see it forming the > necessary bridge beyond the insight that is gained through > satipatthana without jhana? Do you have a sense of how and when > this takes place? I would like to know why jhana is necessary and > what exactly it adds that is indispensible. I would guess it has > something to do with the deeper state of concentration which has > played a major role in every enlightenment tradition, as well as > the suppression of the ordinary distractions and defilements, but I > would like a clearer idea of how this works. ------- N: It all is so much anattaa. It does not work to think: suppose with jhaana I have such or such advantages. When someone is already inclined to jhaana and has that degree of concentration, dhammas take their natural course. Who can choose? But nowhere it is said that there must be jhaana in order to attain enlightenment. We also read that during a discourse people attained. There was no time to cultivate jhaana. They listened intently and could develop mindfulness and understanding of the present reality while they listened. I understand that for the monks it was natural to sit and develop jhaana. They had free time after sweeping their dwelling places, and what else could they do? Not chatter about useless things or seeking company. But, as you know, they should also and above all develop vipassanaa, the Buddha's teaching par excellence. Vipassanaa in all their activities, also when developing samatha. ------ Nina. #113126 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] not-Self strategy and Dhamma nilovg Dear Alex, Op 16-jan-2011, om 17:56 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > If there is no-Self, then no one is a killer and no one is killed? ------- N: Akusala citta and cetasikas, and these are not self. The undergoing of pain: akusala vipaakacitta, not self. ------ > > A:But even "without self" one still has to eat, and do this and > that. Even the Buddha had to eat, and do various monks duties. ------ N: That is, the Buddha exhorted people to be mindful of realities while eating, during activities. In that way one will learn that there are naama and ruupa. -------- > > A:The right view is most commonly defined as 4NT, and not as "there > is no self for me". ------ N: He taught anattaa. When he answered questions about non-self, we have to study the context. Sometimes things seem to be contradictory, but in fact then different aspects were shown to different people in different circumstances. ----- Nina. #113127 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Devas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 17-jan-2011, om 15:51 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > > All the beings and oneself are not what seem to be, and finally the > truth is > impossible to share. World is designed to remain in lies and crime > and one > cannot do nothing at all. We see how people is killed and > contaminated mental > and physically but ok... this is sometimes a nightmare and we can > understand > what happens: there is suffering but finally not being behind all > that. That's > simply kamma results happening now. > > So, Why the rest of the effort?. In example, Why not transform this > list in a > cooking-recipes group?. Why you talk with me about Dhamma?. Why > Sujin don't go > to Koh-Muk and forget all this effort? ------ N: So, your question is: what sense is it to help others, why exerting any effort? There are no beings. There are no beings, but there are: citta, cetasika and ruupa. There are good or wholesome cittas, and there are akusala cittas. What is better? We cannot correct other people, but we can develop what is good and wholesome. We should not expect others to behave well, but all we can do is developing generosity, more understanding. This can also have a beneficial effect on others, but it depends on them, to what extent they are openminded to kusala. When we understand more that whatever we do is conditioned we will be more tolerant as to others. We understand them better, they act in this or that way because they have conditions to do so. Instead of aversion or anger there can be more compassion. ------ > > V: My question is about wisdom, and if one need to rescue the > human, the deva, the > animal...etc As always. If this is part of understanding or > perhaps not, or not > in that way. ----- N: We cannot rescsue them, that depends on conditions. But if we have more understanding of accumulated conditions it is also to the benefit of others. -------- > Nina. > > #113128 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Alex & Robert) - In a message dated 1/18/2011 4:11:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: N:Right. Also those who did not develop mundane jhaana, experience nibbaana at the moment of enlightenment with pa~n~naa accompanied by samaadhi that has the same degree of strength as the first jhaana. This is because nibbaana is the object. ================================= The nagging question occurs to me of how conditioned vi~n~nana contacts what is unconditioned and beyond condition. The dualistic "A knows B" mode of knowing when A is "of this world" and B is transcendent strikes me as problematical. With metta, Howard Look! Look! /What's the need for a well if water is everywhere? Having cut craving by the root, One would go about searching for what?/ (From the Udapana Sutta) #113129 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:58 pm Subject: Re: Concepts vs reality: Numbers & arithmetic operations epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E and Alex, > > ---- > <. . .> > A: >>> > > > 1) "isn't the amount of cittas happening per second, or their > > > duration a conceptual statement?" > > > > > > 2) And by being conceptual, does it make it any less real? > > > > > -------------------------------- > > > KH: >> > > I'm with you on this one, Alex. I have often argued with Robert E > > and others that the anicca characteristic of dhammas is not a > > conclusion drawn from observations over time. The anicca > > characteristic is a property that lies inherently in the dhamma > > itself. > > RE: > Nice try, Ken. Different point. ;-) > ---- > > KH: With me it's always the same point: The only thing that can be known with right understanding is a presently arisen dhamma-arammana. > > Concepts of change are just like concepts of people and devas, they are just stories. They can't be known with right understanding. That's another fun straw man for you to place in the path. We are all talking about concepts of right understanding, but we all know that we are all referencing realities, not concepts. with our concepts. The question is what would you perceive if you were to directly see anicca, and anicca means change or changeability, it doesn't mean anything else so you have no other options. When Buddha talked about anicca, he was talking about the fact that dhammas are not stable, static or same, but are constantly changing and that they therefore cannot be controlled or depended on. That was his point, and that is why he used the term in the first place. If you have invented some other unnamed and indescribable characteristic that you think is an "anicca characteristic" that is like a beauty mark on every arising dhamma, you are trafficking in your own false conceptualization and that does not represent the Buddha's teaching, which actually had a purpose. It wasn't there just to recite that there is a characteristic. We all know that anicca is a characteristic of dhammas. If you can say something descriptive about what you think that characteristic of anicca *is,* not just that it "is a characteristic," it might be possible to have an intelligent exchange about it. Do you disagree that anicca stands for the unstable, changeable, constantly shifting nature of dhammas, or do you think it means something else? If so, what? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113130 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I understand that for the monks it was natural to sit and develop > jhaana... But, as you know, they should also and above all develop > vipassanaa, the Buddha's teaching par excellence. Vipassanaa in all > their activities, also when developing samatha. I don't think anyone can disagree with the above statement. Whether one is developing jhana at a given time or not, one should always develop vipassana by way of mindfulness. Although I think that Buddha's teaching on jhanas is also very sophisticated, there is no doubt that his teaching on vipassana is most excellent and is the direct vehicle of awakening. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113131 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina (and Alex & Robert) - > > In a message dated 1/18/2011 4:11:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > N:Right. Also those who did not develop mundane jhaana, experience > nibbaana at the moment of enlightenment with pa~n~naa accompanied by > samaadhi that has the same degree of strength as the first jhaana. > This is because nibbaana is the object. > ================================= > The nagging question occurs to me of how conditioned vi~n~nana > contacts what is unconditioned and beyond condition. The dualistic "A knows B" > mode of knowing when A is "of this world" and B is transcendent strikes me as > problematical. That leads to the question as to what kind of consciousness awakens? How do you propose that the gap is bridged between deluded consciousness and awakening? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113132 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/18/2011 1:05:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina (and Alex & Robert) - > > In a message dated 1/18/2011 4:11:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > N:Right. Also those who did not develop mundane jhaana, experience > nibbaana at the moment of enlightenment with pa~n~naa accompanied by > samaadhi that has the same degree of strength as the first jhaana. > This is because nibbaana is the object. > ================================= > The nagging question occurs to me of how conditioned vi~n~nana > contacts what is unconditioned and beyond condition. The dualistic "A knows B" > mode of knowing when A is "of this world" and B is transcendent strikes me as > problematical. That leads to the question as to what kind of consciousness awakens? How do you propose that the gap is bridged between deluded consciousness and awakening? Best, Robert E. ================================= The best that I think I can do on this question is to say that I think there is nothing that is awakened: Awakening is not the gaining of something nor is it the transforming of a conditioned consciousness into an unconditioned one, but is the disappearance of the three (adventitious) poisons. The world of samsara is illusion, a realm of lies, IMO, and the illusion simply disappears with the uprooting of the defilements, the blinders, the obscuring and distorting filters. With metta, Howard Look! Look! /What's the need for a well if water is everywhere? Having cut craving by the root, one would go about searching for what?/ (From the Udapana Sutta) #113133 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. truth_aerator Hello RobertE, all, > Can one have highly absorptive concentration without jhana? Sure. Brain surgeons do it, and snipers do it as well. >If one attains a sort of instant jhana at the moment of awakening, I >guess that would check the jhana box, but it does not seem like the >development of right concentration that the Buddha normally spoke >of. Am I wrong about that? Ultimately it is wisdom that cuts off defilements. The question is, what is the most optimal path to become wise? What sort of effort is needed? With metta, Alex #113134 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:53 pm Subject: Today is Durutu Poya Day! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Durutu Poya day is the full-moon of January. This holy day celebrates the first visit of the Buddha to Sri Lanka. The Buddha visited the very place, where the present magnificent Mahiyangana Stupa was built to enshrine the Buddha's hair relics and the collar bone. For Details see: http://www.buddhanet.net/sacred-island/mahiyangana.html and http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/ma/mahiyangana.htm Mahiyangana Stupa On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! So is the start towards Nibbna: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... <....> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #113135 From: Vince Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Devas cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: So, your question is: what sense is it to help others, why > exerting any effort? There are no beings. > There are no beings, but there are: citta, cetasika and ruupa. There > are good or wholesome cittas, and there are akusala cittas. What is > better? good or bad to who?. It will depend of a -self. There is not the good without the bad, and not the wholesome without the unwholesome. And finally, all these dhammas lacks of any support and they are not supported by nothing at all, no beings and no self. Is this not right? > We cannot correct other people, but we can develop what is good and > wholesome. We should not expect others to behave well, but all we can > do is developing generosity, more understanding. This can also have a > beneficial effect on others, but it depends on them, to what extent > they are openminded to kusala. I agree very much. But in such case, How one can progress except by assuming delusion as non-delusion?. I mean; What's the real border between both after the truth is unveiled?. If I'm wrong here, then, Why the Buddha began to teach? I understand that we can be awakened because this self, and also we can develop metta because there are devas, humans, animals... We cannot take metta as an object without beings. Same word "friendliness" becomes an object of metta but in dependence of its support. We cannot develop metta for citta, or nama or rupa. And also is this -self who looks for the other shore. I agree with what you says but please, give a short explanation about how the right point is maintained. best, Vince. #113136 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:48 am Subject: Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, (Han, Nina, Ken O & All), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > Wow, you sure do travel a lot! It sounds like fun - I hope you enjoy going to so many places. .... S: Well, I've been reflecting on the 8 worldly conditions - you know, gain and loss, honour and dishonour, praise and blame, bodily well-being and pain and how susceptible we are to these. Yes, travel is fine and fun, like anything else, when things work out more or less as one would like, as one's lobha would like. The last few days haven't been fun as I've been laid low with rather nasty flu bout from almost the moment I arrived in Sydney. The last few nights I've had to sit up in the living room because of a cough (like Howard, I have a respiratory weakness, so flu is particularly bad news - my chest is quite affected). Today, I'm feeling better and have some of my humour back and also a little appetite for the first time in days, but no voice at all! I can no longer call Jon for any assistance, and he's not complaining!! He's had to run around shopping, cleaning and doing everything (in between his swims and surfs, of course!). The funny thing is that I haven't even been able to touch the green tea he's brought me, which we (rob & I) both usually enjoy, for these several days. Just shows how it really depends on kamma and its result, what tastes good or bad at any moment. Han & Alan (ex Ven P), last night while I was awake (most the night, actually, each night), I was listening to the edited recording from July 2007. You're both present and raising great points with K.Sujin. I do recommend it to everyone. I'm not sure now whether it's 2007-07-03 or 2007-07-04. It's just like taking several long haul trips in economy and listening in a semi-delirious fashion:-) One of the discussions was on attanu-ditthi and self-view which Ken O might like to listen to:-). (Ken O, great to see you around and you've been writing some very helpful messages im-delirious-ho). Nina, let me share one of those short reminders K.Sujin gave me one time in Lumbini which was so helpful then and this morning as I recalled it. I'd just been through the same experience as this, a second or third sleepless night, sitting up, trying to avoid my cough becoming more serious. In the morning, everyone was being very concerned, kind and sympathetic, but K.Sujin's comment was just a smiling "it's gone!". That was it! We have these long stories about me, my health, my problems, my day ahead, my future and so on....just impermanent dhammas that don't stay. We have no idea what the next one will be. There can be insight into seeing or visible object now or at any time, no matter how delirious we may seem, no matter whether we have a migraine which means needing to keep our eyes closed (as I've also been having), no matter how much or little conventional energy of any kind we may have. "It's gone"....the movie, the dream, the fantasy about "sick Sarah"! Just one citta now and there can be awareness at this very moment. Kusala or akusala? Metta Sarah ======== #113137 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 1/18/2011 1:05:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > Hi Howard. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Hi, Nina (and Alex & Robert) - > > > > In a message dated 1/18/2011 4:11:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > vangorko@ writes: > > > > N:Right. Also those who did not develop mundane jhaana, experience > > nibbaana at the moment of enlightenment with pa~n~naa accompanied by > > samaadhi that has the same degree of strength as the first jhaana. > > This is because nibbaana is the object. > > ================================= > > The nagging question occurs to me of how conditioned vi~n~nana > > contacts what is unconditioned and beyond condition. The dualistic "A > knows B" > > mode of knowing when A is "of this world" and B is transcendent strikes > me as > > problematical. > > That leads to the question as to what kind of consciousness awakens? How > do you propose that the gap is bridged between deluded consciousness and > awakening? > > Best, > Robert E. > > ================================= > The best that I think I can do on this question is to say that I think > there is nothing that is awakened: Awakening is not the gaining of > something nor is it the transforming of a conditioned consciousness into an > unconditioned one, but is the disappearance of the three (adventitious) poisons. > The world of samsara is illusion, a realm of lies, IMO, and the illusion > simply disappears with the uprooting of the defilements, the blinders, the > obscuring and distorting filters. It seems to me that if that is what takes place - poisons and filters are removed so that the true vision of reality -- nibbana -- is revealed; then in fact a deluded consciousness is having its delusion removed, which then frees its vision. That does not seem impossible to me. When a person wakes up from a dream, to use an analogy, the person does not change, just the understanding. If I suddenly get the answer to an algebra problem, my confusion and unknowing is taken away as regards that problem - it is an awakening of mind - but my basic nature and character don't change. Removing clouds does not change the nature of the sun, but it does reveal it. I imagine that awakening to nibbana is similar. The mind is only deluded by virtue of delusion; once it is taken away, unimpeded awareness is restored. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113138 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(6) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E & all, In the large pile of posts waiting for a reply, your "no rush' in the p.s. to this one caught my eye:-) j/k - it's the shortest too - a magical combination!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: >>S:....Thinking, sanna, accumulating, thinking with lobha about different objects even now, by accumulations. After Seeing, vitakka at each moment. > >R: Just wondering how vitakka comes in after seeing and what it does with the object of seeing, how it investigates, and for how long. ... S: Vitakka arises with almost all cittas and helps them "touch" the visible object or other object. Seeing, other sense experiences and the higher jhana cittas don't need this assistance to touch or "mount" the object. Like all cetasikas, it arises for a moment, experiencing its object and then falls away. Sometimes it's translated as "thinking" because of its predominant role in thinking about objects. Why do we think of X and not Y? Because of the way that vitakka and sanna, in particular, have been accumulated. But even for the other cittas in the sense-door processes, there is this "touching" of the sense object, even though no "thinking" as such. .... > If vitakka is there, isn't that accompanied by sati? If you are describing ordinary worldling life, is vitakka still involved in the sequence? ... S: Great Qus! Vitakka can accompany kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya cittas. Sati, of course, never accompanies akusala cittas. You may be thinking of the examples of kusala vitakka referred to in suttas and to samma-sankappa (vitakka), the second factor of the eightfold path. These, of course, are accompanied by sati. Ordinary worldling life now....vitakka involved at almost every instant of the day except for the very brief moments of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. For example, whilst lying awake at night or during our dreams, even in deep sleep, vitakka at each moment, touching each concept, each nimitta, according to our accumulations, almost always in an unwholesome way with lobha, dosa or moha. Delirious chatter of the mind. ... > P.S. "no rush" :-) ... S: Yes, got that one ;-) Back to this moment again and your comment before about continuous uneasiness or anxiety in one post(I forget the words). I was just reflecting on how seriously we take ourselves, our lives and all that is dear to us. When we look back over all our concerns and anxieties in the past - we can see how useless the uneasiness or anxiety was. It's the same now - I think the more we appreciate the importance of understanding just now, the more patience and acceptance there is of present dhammas, the less apprehension and anxiety there is. What do you think? Metta Sarah p.s Everyone....I'll be catching up slowly! === #113139 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:13 am Subject: Latent tendencies, Ch 4, no 2. nilovg Dear Han and friends, Latent tendencies, Ch 4, no 2. Text of the Path of Discrimination: "11 .....If he does not abandon past defilements and he does not abandon future defilements, and he does not abandon presently-arisen defilements, then there is no development of the path, there is no realization of its fruition, there is no convergence of ideas? That is not so. There is development of the path, there is realization of its fruition, there is convergence of ideas! In what way? 12. Suppose there were a young tree with unborn fruit, and a man cut its root, then the unborn fruit of the tree remain unborn and do not come to be born, they remain ungenerated and do not come to be generated, they remain unarisen and do not come to be arisen, they remain unmanifest and do not come to be manifested. So too, arising is a cause, arising is a condition, for the generation of defilements. Seeing danger in arising, cognizance enters into non-arising [1]. With cognizance's entering into non-arising the defilements that would be generated with arising as their condition remain unborn and do not come to be born, ... remain unmanifested and do not come to be manifested. So with the cessation of the cause there is the cessation of suffering. Occurrence is a cause ... the sign is a cause ... Accumulation [2] is a cause, accumulation is a condition, for the generation of defilements. Seeing danger in accumulation, cognizance enters into non-accumulation. With cognizance's entering into non- accumulation the defilements that would be generated with accumulation as their condition remain unborn and do not come to be born, ... remain unmanifested and do not come to be manifested. So with the cessation of the cause there is the cessation of suffering. Thus there is development of the path, there is realization of its fruition, there is convergence of ideas (dhammas). From the foregoing text quotations it can be concluded that there is development of the path, that there is eradication of defilements. The path does not eradicate past, future or present defilements. The defilements that arose in the past have already ceased, thus, they are not present at the moment the path- consciousness arises. As to the defilements that will arise in the future, these have not yet arisen. As to presently arising defilements, it is impossible that these could arise together with the magga-citta. Someone who eradicates past defilements, future defilements and presently arisen defilements cannot be found. However, the path eradicates latent tendencies which are there at that moment. The latent tendencies are defilements that do not arise, they are timeless [3]. When the magga-citta, path-consciousness, has eradicated latent tendencies there are no more conditions for the arising of akusala, since there are no germs of it in the form of latent tendencies. That is why it is said that when someone eradicates latent tendencies he actually eradicates akusala of past, future and present. Thus, akusala has no opportunity to arise. As it is said This person eradicates defilements of the past, the future and the present. This is compared to a tree which does not produce fruition yet. When its roots have been cut off there is no opportunity for the production of fruition. Evenso, in the past that has gone there is no production of fruition. In the future there is no oportunity for the arising of fruition. At the present time there is no arising either of fruition. Footnotes: 1. Non-arising, nibbna. 2. yhana, accumulation of kamma. 3. They are dormant in each citta. Without kala, time, namely the times of past, future or present. ***************** Pali text of Path of Discrimination: 11. Na hi atiite kilese pajahati, na anaagate kilese pajahati, na paccuppanne kilese pajahatiiti. Ha~nci na atiite kilese pajahati, na anaagate [pe] na paccuppanne kilese pajahati, tena hi natthi maggabhaavanaa, natthi phalasacchikiriyaa, natthi kilesappahaana.m, natthi dhammaabhisamayoti? Atthi maggabhaavanaa, atthi phalasacchikiriyaa, atthi kilesappahaana.m, atthi dhammaabhisamayo. Yathaa katha.m viya? 12. Seyyathaapi taru.no rukkho ajaataphalo. Tamena.m puriso muula.m chindeyya. Ye tassa rukkhassa ajaataphalaa, te ajaataayeva na jaayanti, anibbattaayeva na nibbattanti, anuppannaayeva na uppajjanti, apaatubhuutaayeva na paatubhavanti. Evameva.m uppaado hetu, uppaado paccayo kilesaana.m nibbattiyaati. Uppaade aadiinava.m disvaa anuppaade citta.m pakkhandati. Anuppaade cittassa pakkhandattaa ye uppaadapaccayaa kilesaa nibbatteyyu.m, te ajaataayeva na jaayanti, anibbattaayeva na nibbattanti, anuppannaayeva na uppajjanti, apaatubhuutaayeva na paatubhavanti. Eva.m hetunirodhaa dukkhanirodho. Pavatta.m hetu nimitta.m hetu Aayuuhanaa hetu. aayuuhanaa paccayo kilesaana.m nibbattiyaati. Aayuuhane aadiinava.m disvaa anaayuuhane citta.m pakkhandati. Anaayuuhane cittassa pakkhandattaa, ye aayuuhanapaccayaa kilesaa nibbatteyyu.m, te ajaataayeva na jaayanti, anibbattaayeva na nibbattanti, anuppannaayeva na uppajjanti, apaatubhuutaayeva na paatubhavanti. Eva.m hetunirodhaa dukkhanirodho. Eva.m atthi maggabhaavanaa, atthi phalasacchikiriyaa, atthi kilesappahaana.m, atthi dhammaabhisamayoti. ************ Nina. #113140 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbaana. Was: Questions on Samatha. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 18-jan-2011, om 17:42 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The nagging question occurs to me of how conditioned vi~n~nana > contacts what is unconditioned and beyond condition. The dualistic > "A knows B" > mode of knowing when A is "of this world" and B is transcendent > strikes me as > problematical. ------- N: You are right that citta is a conditioned reality. Citta can know any object: what is real and what is a concept that stands for a reality and even what is an absurdity, like, it can think of a white elephant. Through the development of insight stage by stage there are conditions for the arising of lokuttara citta, which is not "of this world". However, it is conditioned. It arises because of the appropriate conditions. Since there is the development of the Path there is a leading out to nibbaana. ------- Nina. #113141 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(6) nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 19-jan-2011, om 7:59 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > to Rob E: Back to this moment again and your comment before about > continuous uneasiness or anxiety in one post(I forget the words). I > was just reflecting on how seriously we take ourselves, our lives > and all that is dear to us. When we look back over all our concerns > and anxieties in the past - we can see how useless the uneasiness > or anxiety was. It's the same now - I think the more we appreciate > the importance of understanding just now, the more patience and > acceptance there is of present dhammas, the less apprehension and > anxiety there is. What do you think? ------- N: I am appreciating your reminders from daily life. Taking ourselves so seriously. I have my worries about Lodewijk's health: what shall I cook today when his stomach is not so good. Patience and acceptance of present dhammas, yes, I need such reminders. ------ S: Nina, let me share one of those short reminders K.Sujin gave me one time in Lumbini which was so helpful then and this morning as I recalled it. I'd just been through the same experience as this, a second or third sleepless night, sitting up, trying to avoid my cough becoming more serious. In the morning, everyone was being very concerned, kind and sympathetic, but K.Sujin's comment was just a smiling "it's gone!". That was it! We have these long stories about me, my health, my problems, my day ahead, my future and so on....just impermanent dhammas that don't stay. We have no idea what the next one will be. There can be insight into seeing or visible object now or at any time. ------- N: It is just like Kh. Sujin to give such a short reminder: it's gone. It is good to remember: We have no idea what the next one will be. The future is always different from what we imagine it to be. Thank you, Nina. #113142 From: han tun Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:19 pm Subject: Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 4, no 2. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your very clear explanation. [Nina]: From the foregoing text quotations it can be concluded that there is development of the path, that there is eradication of defilements. The path does not eradicate past, future or present defilements. The defilements that arose in the past have already ceased, thus, they are not present at the moment the path-consciousness arises. As to the defilements that will arise in the future, these have not yet arisen. As to presently arising defilements, it is impossible that these could arise together with the magga-citta. Someone who eradicates past defilements, future defilements and presently arisen defilements cannot be found. However, the path eradicates latent tendencies which are there at that moment. The latent tendencies are defilements that do not arise, they are timeless [3]. When the magga-citta, path-consciousness, has eradicated latent tendencies there are no more conditions for the arising of akusala, since there are no germs of it in the form of latent tendencies. That is why it is said that when someone eradicates latent tendencies he actually eradicates akusala of past, future and present. Thus, akusala has no opportunity to arise. As it is said “This person eradicates defilements of the past, the future and the present.” This is compared to a tree which does not produce fruition yet. When its roots have been cut off there is no opportunity for the production of fruition. Evenso, in the past that has gone there is no production of fruition. In the future there is no oportunity for the arising of fruition. At the present time there is no arising either of fruition. ---------- [Han]: At first glance, the statement seems to be in contradiction to what I have understood. I have all along understood that magga-cittas eliminate kilesas. But according to Abhisamayakathaa it is not so. Then the statement From the above two statements, it seems that [kilesas] and latent tendencies [anusaya kilesas] are two different entities. The magga-cittas eliminate [anusaya kilesas] but not [kilesas]. It becomes a bit confusing. However, as I continue reading your text: it becomes clear. Thank you very much once again. Respectfully, Han #113143 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/19/2011 12:53:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: > The best that I think I can do on this question is to say that I think > there is nothing that is awakened: Awakening is not the gaining of > something nor is it the transforming of a conditioned consciousness into an > unconditioned one, but is the disappearance of the three (adventitious) poisons. > The world of samsara is illusion, a realm of lies, IMO, and the illusion > simply disappears with the uprooting of the defilements, the blinders, the > obscuring and distorting filters. It seems to me that if that is what takes place - poisons and filters are removed so that the true vision of reality -- nibbana -- is revealed; then in fact a deluded consciousness is having its delusion removed, which then frees its vision. -------------------------------------------------------------- Yes! Not only are ideas and understanding modified, but the very MODE of "vision" is turned on its head. No longer is there the seeming of a fragmentation of reality, no longer is there a sense of self in anything, simple or complex, for, in fact there is no longer the seeming of separate things at all, and, particularly, no longer the seeming of a separate subject knowing a separate object. Reality is laid bare in an indescribable, participative fashion that is shattering in all respects. ------------------------------------------------------------- That does not seem impossible to me. When a person wakes up from a dream, to use an analogy, the person does not change, just the understanding. ------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, and more than intellectual understanding. The change in "vision" is radical. And yet it pales in comparison to the change of "vision" in total spiritual awakening. ------------------------------------------------------------- If I suddenly get the answer to an algebra problem, my confusion and unknowing is taken away as regards that problem - it is an awakening of mind - but my basic nature and character don't change. --------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, there is a taking away of confusion and unknowing. However, in this case, the acquiring of knowledge has also occurred and is fundamental - so something has been added. In the case of bodhi, the non-dual reality "awakened to" has been (or, better, TIMELESSLY IS ) there all along, but hidden. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Removing clouds does not change the nature of the sun, but it does reveal it. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Yes! Now add to this that not only has the "nibbana sun" always been present but is all there is and ever was, and the metaphor comes closer, I think, to being a perfect one. ------------------------------------------------------------------- I imagine that awakening to nibbana is similar. The mind is only deluded by virtue of delusion; once it is taken away, unimpeded awareness is restored. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. I see it that way as well. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. ======================================= With metta, Howard Luminous, ever-present, and hidden-but-to-be-awakened-to /"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by adventitious defilements." "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from adventitious defilements." "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by adventitious defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from adventitious defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind."/ (Pabhassara Sutta) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /What's the need for a well if water is everywhere? Having cut craving by the root, one would go about searching for what?/ (Udapana Sutta) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ (Potaliya Sutta) #113144 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:00 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 4, no 2. nilovg Dear Han, Op 19-jan-2011, om 13:19 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > That is why it is said that when someone eradicates latent > tendencies he actually eradicates akusala of past, future and > present. Thus, akusala has no opportunity to arise. As it is said > This person eradicates defilements of the past, the future and the > present.> it becomes clear. -------- N: This shows again that something can be seen from one point of view or from another point of view. There seems to be a contradiction, but in fact it is not so. This is interesting, the following part of this study deals with Sammohavinodanii, Dispeller of Delusion, II, CH 8, Classificatrion of Right Efforts, 1460: < So indeed the path does not abandon the past, etc. kinds of defilements nor does it not abandon them.> It has a simile of a tree with born fruit... Also different meanings of upanna, arisen, are given. Han: From the above two statements, it seems that [kilesas] and latent tendencies [anusaya kilesas] are two different entities. The magga-cittas eliminate [anusaya kilesas] but not [kilesas]. ------- N: Yes, as was explained, the anusayas do not arise. Thus, at the moment of magga-citta there cannot be at the same time akusala citta that arises. But there are latent tendencies lying dormant in the citta, even in the magga-citta. But it is hard to have a clear picture of the process of eradication. We cannot imagine how it works. But we do not have to. Nina. #113145 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 19-jan-2011, om 14:31 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > No longer is there the seeming of a > fragmentation of reality, no longer is there a sense of self in > anything, > simple or complex, for, in fact there is no longer the seeming of > separate > things at all, and, particularly, no longer the seeming of a > separate subject > knowing a separate object. ------- N: Each citta experiences an object. Citta is not the object. When nibbaana is the object of citta, citta does not change into nibbaana. Citta is citta, nibbaana is nibbaana. Citta arises, it is dukkha. Nibbaana is not dukkha, but the end to dukkha. But I understand your way of thinking, in the way of phenomenology. You see citta and its content, the object, as a non-duality. ------ Nina. #113146 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina In a message dated 1/19/2011 9:09:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 19-jan-2011, om 14:31 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > No longer is there the seeming of a > fragmentation of reality, no longer is there a sense of self in > anything, > simple or complex, for, in fact there is no longer the seeming of > separate > things at all, and, particularly, no longer the seeming of a > separate subject > knowing a separate object. ------- N: Each citta experiences an object. Citta is not the object. -------------------------------------------- Yes, understand that perspective. I consider it as describing samsara. ---------------------------------------- When nibbaana is the object of citta, citta does not change into nibbaana. ------------------------------------------ I follow you. ------------------------------------- Citta is citta, nibbaana is nibbaana. Citta arises, it is dukkha. Nibbaana is not dukkha, but the end to dukkha. ----------------------------------------- Actually, is awakening to nibbana that is the end of dukkha. Nibbana itself is not an event. ----------------------------------------- But I understand your way of thinking, in the way of phenomenology. You see citta and its content, the object, as a non-duality. --------------------------------------------- I see them as entirely mutually dependent. But nibbana goes beyond even this. All our pointing to nibbana is unavoidably off the mark. ------------------------------------------- ------ Nina. =============================== With metta, Howard Like a Dream /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ (From the Potaliya Sutta) #113147 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:44 pm Subject: Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, (Han, Nina, Ken O & All), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Wow, you sure do travel a lot! It sounds like fun - I hope you enjoy going to so many places. > .... > S: Well, I've been reflecting on the 8 worldly conditions - you know, gain and loss, honour and dishonour, praise and blame, bodily well-being and pain and how susceptible we are to these. > > Yes, travel is fine and fun, like anything else, when things work out more or less as one would like, as one's lobha would like. Yes, I'm aware of that too. One akusala strategy I employ is to stay unhappy in advance just in case something goes wrong. :-) But it is not a real remedy for attachment. > The last few days haven't been fun as I've been laid low with rather nasty flu bout from almost the moment I arrived in Sydney. ... The funny thing is that I haven't even been able to touch the green tea he's brought me, which we (rob & I) both usually enjoy, for these several days. Just shows how it really depends on kamma and its result, what tastes good or bad at any moment. That is pretty serious in my view, if you are in a state where you can't enjoy green tea. When I am sick that is the last thing to go. Come to think of it I have to be pretty sick to weaken my appetite, but it has happened! ... > Nina, let me share one of those short reminders K.Sujin gave me one time in Lumbini which was so helpful then and this morning as I recalled it. I'd just been through the same experience as this, a second or third sleepless night, sitting up, trying to avoid my cough becoming more serious. In the morning, everyone was being very concerned, kind and sympathetic, but K.Sujin's comment was just a smiling "it's gone!". That was it! I really like that a lot. It's very...zen. :-)) > We have these long stories about me, my health, my problems, my day ahead, my future and so on....just impermanent dhammas that don't stay. We have no idea what the next one will be. There can be insight into seeing or visible object now or at any time, no matter how delirious we may seem, no matter whether we have a migraine which means needing to keep our eyes closed (as I've also been having), no matter how much or little conventional energy of any kind we may have. > > "It's gone"....the movie, the dream, the fantasy about "sick Sarah"! This is a good story, and a good reminder about the strength of our conceptually-induced identities. They really are just a mirage, aren't they? Good to know! As I think about how uncomfortable flu symptoms are, I am thinking about unpleasant vipaka and how I now notice when I am doing certain things, and think to myself - "Hm, you will experience the result of that later, Rob." Because of recent discussions on dsg I have lost my desire to kill annoying insects. I still would likely do it if it seemed necessary for safety, but we have these infinitely tiny little bugs that must come from fruit or the plants outside or somewhere that fly around wildly and get in our face. I've now decided that they are cute and confused and I just watch them fly and get out of their way. That impressed me - one can suddenly become a little more "Buddhist" without expecting it. I blame this squarely on dsg as a source of conditions for the reduction in violent impulses, and I am grateful for the change. Perhaps I'll have a little less unpleasant vipaka coming down the pike. As a result of not being so reactive, I've been watching them a little more closely and I seem to be able to see these little guys have reactions, make decisions, etc., although all it adds up to is flying wildly in some other direction, or landing dangerously close to the water stream in the sink. Sort of like us...? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113148 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:46 pm Subject: The 8 Great Thoughts! bhikkhu5 Friends: The 8 Thoughts of a Great Man! The Buddha once explained to Ven. Anuruddha : What are the 8 thoughts of a great man? 1: This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who wants much. 2; This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent. 3: This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for the socializing parrot. 4: This Dhamma is for one who is enthusiastic, not for one who is lazy. 5: This Dhamma is for one who is aware, not for one who is distracted. 6: This Dhamma is for one who is focused, not for one who is scattered. 7: This Dhamma is for one who understands, not for one who is confused. 8: This Dhamma is for one who enjoys unity, not for one who seeks diversity. When you think these 8 thoughts of a great man, then you can always easily attain the four jhanas, that provides a pleasant dwelling right here and now! Secondly, your rag-robe & simple alms-food, your dwelling at the tree-root, your bed on a spread of grass, and your smelling medicine will seem to you as the best of the best. Therefore will you live contented, in sweet delight, satisfied, dwelling in calm comfort, not agitated, and thus approach release. Anguttara Nikya IV 227 (edited excerpt) Full text here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.030.than.html Comments: Later during this Rains Retreat in the Eastern Bamboo Park, Ven. Anuruddha dwelling alone, secluded, alert, ardent, & resolute, in no long time reached & remained in that supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth into homelessness, and directly experiencing it himself he understood: "Rebirth is ended, this Noble life is completed, what should be done is done. There is no further state in this world." And thus Ven. Anuruddha became another one of the Arahats. <....> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #113149 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:40 pm Subject: Re: Do the "god's" exist? ksheri3 Hi Swee Boon, You take some very interesting and divergent positions. > > If I had developed the divine ear, I would probably hear them talking. > colette: so you do admit, THEN, that you at least have the "divine eye"? What song was that? maybe it was Ruthie Foster singing "EVEN A BLIND MAN CAN TELL, when he's walkin in the sun." So, somehow, you've got this "divine eye" and must be working on the "divine ear", etc., and you want me to believe that there is some sort of blessing of/from a "divinty" to see when it's clearly accepted that blind people can see more clearly than the corporate robot? Here we get into that age old debate about BUDDHA NATURE being the actuality a person has to achieve ENLIGHTENMENT in a single lifetime WHILE THE DEPENDENT THERAVADANS DEMAND THAT ENLIGHTENMENT ONLY BECOMES GENERATED AFTER THOUSANDS OF LIFETIMES. Yea, I think I can still hit targets being pulled by a machine in a sideshow at the Carney, the Midway, the CArnival. --------------------------------------- > > colette only a few seconds. IF they protect then how do you explain Queensland's plees for rain and water being deluged by such warm New Zeeland like conditions? > > Even if Australia sinks under, there are still millions of humans to continue the game. These "gods" are not the Perfect God that is often portrayed by Christianity and such religions. colette: Ah, so you admit that drinking Amrita is a socially NORMAL thing? What about "spirits" or "alcohol"? Aren't they socially normal behaviors? ------------------------------------- They are not omnipotent and they could care less to intervene in such 'micro'-disasters. colette: I only have about 7 minutes left and want to at least begin putting together the mocking replyh to what you've given me below, above will have to wait: I believe they protect the Earth on a 'macro'-disaster basis such as very powerful coronal mass ejections colette: so an ELECTRO-MAGNETIC FIELD has nothing to do with protecting the Earth from a CME? That, my friend, is a winner! You are establishing the MISS CONCEPTION that monks had when they created these "gods" these deities, about normal everyday SCIENTIFIC FACTS. I believe it was Dr. Phil Plait that said something to the fact that "we do not know or have the physics, YET, to answer a lot of these questions concerning black holes, et al." But you are gonna rely upon the MISS CONCEPTION and MISS INTERPRETATIONS of monks who were/are DRUNK WITH POWER for determining who gets into the cave to decide what scripture is and who is cast out of the cave or kept out of the cave. And in your delusion you are gonna ascribe REALITY and tangibility to this reality THROUGH THE DELUSIONS OF MONKS? You reject the scientific concept of ELECTRO-MAGNETIC FIELDS and you give these hallucinations more power than SCIENTIFIC FACT? ---------------------------- or a very huge asteriod striking the Earth. > > Swee Boon > colette: shame, no time and this is a good one, the asteroid theories you have. I can't wait get into NUMBER THEORY, POTENTIAL, etc. toodles colette #113150 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(6) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E & all, > > In the large pile of posts waiting for a reply, your "no rush' in the p.s. to this one caught my eye:-) j/k - it's the shortest too - a magical combination!! :) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >>S:....Thinking, sanna, accumulating, thinking with lobha about different objects even now, by accumulations. After Seeing, vitakka at each moment. > > > >R: Just wondering how vitakka comes in after seeing and what it does with the object of seeing, how it investigates, and for how long. > ... > S: Vitakka arises with almost all cittas and helps them "touch" the visible object or other object. Seeing, other sense experiences and the higher jhana cittas don't need this assistance to touch or "mount" the object. Like all cetasikas, it arises for a moment, experiencing its object and then falls away. Sometimes it's translated as "thinking" because of its predominant role in thinking about objects. Why do we think of X and not Y? Because of the way that vitakka and sanna, in particular, have been accumulated. But even for the other cittas in the sense-door processes, there is this "touching" of the sense object, even though no "thinking" as such. I see, I hadn't realized that there is a mundane version of vitakka that does the ordinary touching of the object. I thought of vitakka as the higher kind that investigates the object along with sati. That is interesting to find out. > ...Vitakka can accompany kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya cittas. Sati, of course, never accompanies akusala cittas. You may be thinking of the examples of kusala vitakka referred to in suttas and to samma-sankappa (vitakka), the second factor of the eightfold path. These, of course, are accompanied by sati. So the samma-sankappa kind of vitakka has the same name as the ordinary kind. They ought to give it a different name, like maha-vitakka or something. > Ordinary worldling life now....vitakka involved at almost every instant of the day except for the very brief moments of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. For example, whilst lying awake at night or during our dreams, even in deep sleep, vitakka at each moment, touching each concept, each nimitta, according to our accumulations, almost always in an unwholesome way with lobha, dosa or moha. Delirious chatter of the mind. So vitakka touches concepts too? That seems a little odd, as I thought that concepts don't really get contact in a sense, but perhaps I am confused about that. I know thinking takes place, but as the concept is unreal, in what sense is it touched or investigated by vitakka? Is concept an object for sanna as well? We remember concepts obviously, and do we perceive them in some form? For instance, I think of "mother" and I see her image in my thought. If I think about her more thoroughly, things she said, her characteristics, would vitakka be bringing out those different attributes even though it is a conceptual area I am investigating? > > P.S. "no rush" :-) > ... > S: Yes, got that one ;-) :-) Couldn't resist. > Back to this moment again and your comment before about continuous uneasiness or anxiety in one post(I forget the words). I was just reflecting on how seriously we take ourselves, our lives and all that is dear to us. When we look back over all our concerns and anxieties in the past - we can see how useless the uneasiness or anxiety was. It's the same now - I think the more we appreciate the importance of understanding just now, the more patience and acceptance there is of present dhammas, the less apprehension and anxiety there is. What do you think? I think that's a very useful analysis. To some extent I've experienced that - when I look at what's really happening it usually only involves 1/10 of what I'm concerned about. Most of it is speculation about the future - good to focus on that and realize that it's all mental proliferation for the most part. I agree that if we look to what's really happening now, that is very good therapy. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113151 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I imagine that awakening to nibbana is similar. The mind is only deluded > by virtue of delusion; once it is taken away, unimpeded awareness is > restored. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Yes. I see it that way as well. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for this nice colloquy, Howard. I enjoyed it very much. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #113152 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(5) sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Many thanks for all your good discussions! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: How right this is. Kh Sujin can answer things with short phrases, > and the other day you quoted something about engagement in politics, > where she said: better develop understanding of one's citta now. This > was at first unwelcome to me. I thought: but we always talk about it > that we can be fully engaged in our social life. What about our > social life. I felt uneasy about it, but I did not say anything. .... S: Yes, we follow our various lifestyles according to our accumulations. I also follow the news and keenly read newspapers. But there are no rules at all about what interest, what participation anyone should/should not make. When I was young, I was so involved in community projects and politics and used to think this was important, but after studying the Dhamma, very gradually began to appreciate that understanding dhammas now is really all that is important in this life. When we hear something and feel uneasy, again, that is the reality now. I read about the floods in Queensland here and I feel very uneasy, but appreciate all the reminders about how really useless it is to feel uneasy. We just think long stories with lots of vitakka and sanna, lost in our imagined worlds and forget about the realities now, the seeing, the thinking, the uneasiness and so on. ... > Then > after a while I started to appreciate this. I am frequently > discussing politics with Lodewijk, in our own country, and in the > States, and then I realise much more frequently: how is the citta > now? It is rooted in dosa. And we remind one another. Before I had > not realised it so often when there was dosa, even slight. So this > shows that even a short answer can be most useful. .... S: Yes, lots of slight dosa on account of the clinging. We even have ideas that this kind of thinking with uneasiness, sadness, shock and so on is somehow good, because of the particular concepts. As we know, however natural it may be, if the thinking is rooted in lobha, dosa or moha (as most of it is), then it's not of any value at all. Metta Sarah ========= #113153 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:59 am Subject: Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, Just able to look at the computer for short bursts (being in front of the computer is another thing that is bringing on my cough), but you always make me smile! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >S: Yes, travel is fine and fun, like anything else, when things work out more or less as one would like, as one's lobha would like. > >J: Yes, I'm aware of that too. One akusala strategy I employ is to stay unhappy in advance just in case something goes wrong. :-) But it is not a real remedy for attachment. .... S: :-) ... >R: That is pretty serious in my view, if you are in a state where you can't enjoy green tea. When I am sick that is the last thing to go. Come to think of it I have to be pretty sick to weaken my appetite, but it has happened! ... S: Yes, I don't remember having flu before and not feeling able to eat or drink a thing. For one day, sips of ginger beer was all I could manage. Anyway, well on the mend now and that's all gone. I even ate a proper breakfast today and managed to go to see a Chinese doctor for cupping and acupuncture. When I was really sick, I couldn't fact the thought of making the trip, so have to be well enough (pass the green tea test) to get to see the doctor:-)More tomorrow, plus some Chinese herbs, so that'll soon shock my system back to recovery mode. I have to be fully recovered by Sat week when Pt's coming for dhamma discussion because otherwise he's threatening to buy me an electro-larynx device! ... >S:"it's gone!". That was it! > > I really like that a lot. It's very...zen. :-)) .... S: When you friends feel like they're dying and are full of self-pity, to just calmly and smilingly say "it's gone" takes real confidence in present moment understanding and detachment. Not many friends will appreciate it either! ... > > "It's gone"....the movie, the dream, the fantasy about "sick Sarah"! > > This is a good story, and a good reminder about the strength of our conceptually-induced identities. They really are just a mirage, aren't they? Good to know! ... S: Yes, and we're building up the mirages whenever there isn't any understanding of the realities - the mirages of samsara1 ... > > As I think about how uncomfortable flu symptoms are, I am thinking about unpleasant vipaka and how I now notice when I am doing certain things, and think to myself - "Hm, you will experience the result of that later, Rob." Because of recent discussions on dsg I have lost my desire to kill annoying insects. ... S: I'm glad to hear it. It shows that it is the wise consideration, the understanding, not the rules that lead to such abstention. ... >I still would likely do it if it seemed necessary for safety, but we have these infinitely tiny little bugs that must come from fruit or the plants outside or somewhere that fly around wildly and get in our face. I've now decided that they are cute and confused and I just watch them fly and get out of their way. That impressed me - one can suddenly become a little more "Buddhist" without expecting it. I blame this squarely on dsg as a source of conditions for the reduction in violent impulses, and I am grateful for the change. Perhaps I'll have a little less unpleasant vipaka coming down the pike. .... S: And you know what? I'm sure you'll find that those little insects just stop being so annoying. Gently wiping them aside in a friendly manner or moving out of the way is so much simpler than the alternatives. They just want to live healthily too! .... > > As a result of not being so reactive, I've been watching them a little more closely and I seem to be able to see these little guys have reactions, make decisions, etc., although all it adds up to is flying wildly in some other direction, or landing dangerously close to the water stream in the sink. Sort of like us...? ... S: Yes, just like us, flying around wildly in lobha, dosa and moha, trying to avoid trouble. Just like us....a condition for metta and karuna! Metta Sarah ====== #113154 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:25 am Subject: Re: Breakfast discussion with Han sarahprocter... Dear Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > >R: ...and perhaps can even be affected by "calming bodily formations..." > > .... > > S: See my last message and Pt's quote. "The tranquillizing of the body is tranquillity of the body (kaayassa passambhana.m kaayapassaddhi.)....And here the body means the three [mental] aggregates, feeling, [perception and formations] (see Dhs 40)........They should be regarded as opposed to the defilements of agitation, etc., which cause unpeacefulness in the [mental] body and in consciousness." > >R: I don't want to seem unduly skeptical without knowing exactly what this references and whether everyone agrees on that interpretation of that verse, but if you have to put [mental] in front of body every time it appears to clarify what it's saying, it seems to me there's a chance that someone is imposing that interpretation on the original statement. Is it fair to say that it is not always the case that kaya refers to mental body? ... S: Your comment is fair. We have to always consider the context, as Nina says. Kaya can refer to the body of mental factors, as in this Vism ref, it can refer to the rupas of the body, as in the Satipatthana Sutta, and other meanings too, I'm sure. I reminded you of this meaning because the discussion was concerning kusala arising at any time, including in a yoga class. The condition for kusala to develop and arise is the accumulation and understanding of what it is and its value. I'm sure the devas feel they are in "deep relaxation" and bodily comfort most the time, but this is a condition for lobha, not panna, surely? ... > Is the kaya in this passage preceded by "mental" anywhere in Pali, or is it just explained in the Vis, and is it with reference to the satipatthana sutta or something else? .... S: The Pali refers to "kaayapassaddhi" and "cittapassaddhi". These are two cetasikas (always mental), which are the calming of the mental factors (cetasikas) and the calming of the citta. Whenever the citta is kusala, these two mental factors arise with it. In fact, "passaddhi" is samatha. So whenever the citta is kusala, there is calm, the calming of all mental states, free from any uneasiness or agitation. Kaya in the Satipatthana Sutta refers to the rupas of the physical body, so you're right in this. .... <...> > >S: Of course, we're always thinking in terms of situations and people as being the problem, but really it's always the lobha, dosa and moha. > >R: Taking responsibility for reactions instead of blaming them on situations and people is tough, but a good sign of maturity. Can't say I can do that a large percentage of the time, but even a little growth in awareness is helpful. ... S: Yes. We can learn from looking at all those things that bug or upset us. What we can learn is about the lack of patience and the lack of understanding - taking our "mirages" so seriously:-) Metta Sarah ===== #113155 From: han tun Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:26 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 4, no 2. hantun1 Dear Nina, [Nina] But there are latent tendencies lying dormant in the citta, even in the magga-citta. But it is hard to have a clear picture of the process of eradication. We cannot imagine how it works. But we do not have to. [Han] It is interesting to note that the latent tendencies are lying dormant in the citta, even in the magga-citta. I would have never thought it that way. But then as you said, we do not have to imagine how it works! Respectfully, Han #113156 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 19-jan-2011, om 17:03 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > But I understand your way of thinking, in the way of phenomenology. > You see citta and its content, the object, as a non-duality. > --------------------------------------------- > I see them as entirely mutually dependent. But nibbana goes beyond > even this. All our pointing to nibbana is unavoidably off the mark. > ------------------------------------------- N: Yes, it is off the mark. I quite agree. Only this: the mutual dependence. I think that we cannot speak of nibbaana as dependent on anything. Lokuttara citta that arises is dependent on many conditions. Since it arises it has to fall away, and then there are other cittas, such as thinking, seeing, etc., cittas that are 'of this world' again. Whereas nibbaana does not arise, it has no conditions, and it does not fall away. ------ Nina. #113157 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:59 am Subject: Re: notes from Bangkok with A.Sujin 3b sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Rob, you may like to take a look at this one - note how "tranquillizing of the body" refers to the calming of the mental khandhas. > > I'm a little confused. Does this passage correspond to the anapanasati sutta? ... S: The passage quoted was from the Vism, ch 14, explaining the details of all the wholesome cetasikas. ... >In the anapanasati sutta there are two sections that refer to calming formations - one that says "I will breathe...pacifying the bodily formation," [Bikkhu Bodhi translation,] and a later one that says "I will breathe...pacifying the mental formation." > > Bikkhu Bodhi explains in a lecture that the mental formation refers to the mental kandhas, and discusses why vedana is included in mental factors - and that the bodily formation refers to the breath and physical body as extension of the breath. ... S: When the cittas are kusala (cittas and mental states accompanying them), then the rupas of the body are "pacified". It always comes back to the kusala citta and the understanding of what is kusala. At such moments there is calm (always mental), and no disturbance. We can see how the rupas of the body are conditioned by the mind when we smile kindly vs when we're angry, for example. We know this is true of the breath too. ... > In another translation physical body is used instead of physical formation, and mental formations is used in plural instead of mental formation. > > Is the passage you quote related to this passage in the anapanasati sutta, or is it a completely separate reference? .... S: It's a completely separate reference, but they're both about the development of kusala cittas and cetasikas and in particular, the understanding of dhammas as anatta:-) ... >I just don't think that both the first reference to the "body" and the second to "mental formations" can both be referring to the same mental kandhas. ... S: Again, depending on the context. In the Vism explanation of passaddhi (calm), both the "tranquillizing of the mind" and "of the bodily formations" (citta- and kaya-passaddhi) are included in sankhara khandha. In the Anapanasati Sutta, where rupa-kaya is being referred to (as opposed to mental kaya), then, of course, it's rupa khandha that is meant. I'm not quite up to checking references and so on as yet, so just my quick reflections only. Metta Sarah ======== #113158 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) nilovg Dear Sarah and Rob E, Op 20-jan-2011, om 6:59 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > S:"it's gone!". That was it! > > > Rob: > I really like that a lot. It's very...zen. :-)) > .... > S: When you friends feel like they're dying and are full of self- > pity, to just calmly and smilingly say "it's gone" takes real > confidence in present moment understanding and detachment. Not many > friends will appreciate it either. > ------ N: Lodewijk was complaining about another sleepness night, because of his stomach troubles. I told him about 'it's gone'. I had just read to him about the perfections of patience : < We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fives, Ch IX, 5, He cannot en- dure that the Buddha said: Monks, possessed of five qualities, among his fellows in the godly life (brahma cariya), an elder becomes neither dear nor pleasant nor respected nor praised. He cannot endure forms, sounds, smells, tastes and touches. Monks, possessed of these five qualities, an elder becomes neither dear nor pleasant nor respected nor praised. By the opposte qualities, a person who can endure forms (visible objects), sounds, smells, tastes amd touches, will become, among his fellows in the godly life, dear, pleasant, respected and praised. > I asked him about tangible object and sound, to endure these when having stomach trouble. It made him think. ****** Nina. #113159 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? sarahprocter... Hi Pt & all, #113002 Just wanted to say that I thought you gave a very helpful summary on Sabhava as used in different texts: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > 1. "sabhava" term in Patisambhidhamagga refers to something that is not conditioned - in that sense it has an "own-being" - so this is rejected in Psm. > > 2. "sabhava" term in Visuddhimagga refers to something that has the characterstics (individual and general), and that is asserted in Vsm, but that doesn't mean it is not conditioned - so conditioned nature is also asserted in Vsm. > > So, the meanings are actually different in these two text, hence, I'm not sure how useful it is to counter the two passages against each other, since it's a bit like apples and oranges. To reiterate, when the term "existence" is used in Vsm, that doesn't mean that it somehow defies conditionality. > > Furthermore, my own conjecture is that such terms as "existence" are not used in their conventional way - e.g. to posit a theory of existence/non-existence in the manner that other sectarians speculated about the world. Rather, it simply attempts to convey an experience of insight as it develops from early stages. <....> ..... Metta Sarah ======== #113160 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: notes from Bangkok with A.Sujin 3b nilovg Dear Rob E and Sarah, Op 20-jan-2011, om 8:59 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > S: Again, depending on the context. In the Vism explanation of > passaddhi (calm), both the "tranquillizing of the mind" and "of the > bodily formations" (citta- and kaya-passaddhi) are included in > sankhara khandha. In the Anapanasati Sutta, where rupa-kaya is > being referred to (as opposed to mental kaya), then, of course, > it's rupa khandha that is meant. ------- N: Some quotes, Vis. Ch XIV, 144: *** N: The Tiika explains that tranquilizing (passambhana.m) means the calming of anxiety. It states that the term body, kaayo, denotes a group, and it refers to the Dhammasangani which mentions the tranquillity of the khandhas of feeling, remembrance (saaa) and the formations. With reference to these three khandhas that include the cetasikas, the word body, kaayo, is used. Text Vis.: But both tranquility of the body and of consciousness have, together, the characteristic of quieting disturbance of the body and of consciousness. > -------- By the way, Rob, vitakka also 'touches' any object experienced through the mind-door, a concept or a reality and sa~n~naa marks it. ------ Nina. #113161 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Lodewijk), I'd love to hear more of his reflections on these topics below - I know he considers them all deeply! Perhaps he may consider writing or sharing some of his thoughts with your help. By the way, many friends in Thailand ask after you both and send their warmest regards. Metta Sarah p.s My mother joins us here in just two weeks! --- On Thu, 20/1/11, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Lodewijk was complaining about another sleepness night, > because of > his stomach troubles. I told him about 'it's gone'. I had > just read > to him about the perfections of patience > : > < We read in the “Gradual Sayings”, Book of the > Fives, Ch IX, §5, “He > cannot en- dure” that the Buddha said: > “Monks, possessed of five qualities, among his fellows in > the godly > life (brahma cariya), an elder becomes neither dear nor > pleasant nor > respected nor praised. > He cannot endure forms, sounds, smells, tastes and > touches. > Monks, possessed of these five qualities, an elder becomes > neither > dear nor pleasant nor respected nor praised. > By the opposte qualities, a person who can endure forms > (visible > objects), sounds, smells, tastes amd touches, will become, > among his > fellows in the godly life, dear, pleasant, respected and > praised.” > > > I asked him about tangible object and sound, to endure > these when > having stomach trouble. It made him think. #113162 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 20-jan-2011, om 10:31 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > By the way, many friends in Thailand ask after you both and send > their warmest regards. ------ N: That is very kind of them. Lodewijk did not express in words what he understood, he just nodded. He is very disinclined to write. No good insisting. But when I have read a passage from the Perfections, he says: that is very good. I hope your mother will not be hindered by snow. But nothing can make her stay away! ----- Nina. #113163 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/20/2011 12:11:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I imagine that awakening to nibbana is similar. The mind is only deluded > by virtue of delusion; once it is taken away, unimpeded awareness is > restored. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Yes. I see it that way as well. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for this nice colloquy, Howard. I enjoyed it very much. ------------------------------------------------------ :-) I always enjoy our conversations. ----------------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113164 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/20/2011 2:54:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 19-jan-2011, om 17:03 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > But I understand your way of thinking, in the way of phenomenology. > You see citta and its content, the object, as a non-duality. > --------------------------------------------- > I see them as entirely mutually dependent. But nibbana goes beyond > even this. All our pointing to nibbana is unavoidably off the mark. > ------------------------------------------- N: Yes, it is off the mark. I quite agree. Only this: the mutual dependence. I think that we cannot speak of nibbaana as dependent on anything. ------------------------------------------------------- Exactly so! Yet there IS mutual dependence between consciousness and object, which makes my point, I think, with regard to nibbana and non-duality. ------------------------------------------------------- Lokuttara citta that arises is dependent on many conditions. Since it arises it has to fall away, and then there are other cittas, such as thinking, seeing, etc., cittas that are 'of this world' again. Whereas nibbaana does not arise, it has no conditions, and it does not fall away. ---------------------------------------------------------- Quite so. ---------------------------------------------------------- ------ Nina. =================================== With metta, Howard /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) #113165 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Devas nilovg Dear Vince, Op 19-jan-2011, om 1:16 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: >> N: So, your question is: what sense is it to help others, why >> exerting any effort? There are no beings. >> There are no beings, but there are: citta, cetasika and ruupa. There >> are good or wholesome cittas, and there are akusala cittas. What is >> better? > > good or bad to who?. It will depend of a -self. > There is not the good without the bad, and not the wholesome > without the > unwholesome. And finally, all these dhammas lacks of any support > and they are > not supported by nothing at all, no beings and no self. ------- N: Good or bad with regard to the 'person' who helps, acts. But as said, what we take for a person or denote with the word person are citta, cetasika and ruupa. In doing good deeds the citta accumulates conditions for the arising again of kusala in the future. And also for kusala vipaaka (result) in the future. Kusala is beneficial, helpful, it is better than akusala that only brings more suffering. ------- > >> V: quotes N: We cannot correct other people, but we can develop >> what is good and >> wholesome. We should not expect others to behave well, but all we can >> do is developing generosity, more understanding. This can also have a >> beneficial effect on others, but it depends on them, to what extent >> they are openminded to kusala. > > I agree very much. But in such case, How one can progress except by > assuming > delusion as non-delusion?. I mean; What's the real border between > both after the > truth is unveiled?. If I'm wrong here, then, Why the Buddha began > to teach? ----------- N: The Buddha taught the way to have less ignorance or delusion. He helped people to develop more understanding of all phenomena of their life. Only in this way one will realize that before hearing his teaching we knew nothing about the truth, we were full of delusion. By the development of understanding delusion can gradually disappear. Only the arahat, the perfected one has completely eradicated all delusion. -------- > > V: I understand that we can be awakened because this self, and also > we can develop > metta because there are devas, humans, animals... We cannot take > metta as an > object without beings. Same word "friendliness" becomes an object > of metta but > in dependence of its support. We cannot develop metta for citta, or > nama or > rupa. And also is this -self who looks for the other shore. ------- N: Metta is developed to beings, true. We can think of beings with displeasure or with mettaa. When we have mettaa, citta with metta is being developed, that is kusala. Beings are in reality citta, cetasika and ruupa, which do not stay. Beings are not real in the ultimate sense, but we still think of them. Is it not better to think with kusala cittas? When a self looks for the other shore, for nibbaana, nibbaana will not be reached. The idea of self has to be eradicated. This is a process that occurs step by step. We can begin now: investigate realities as they appear one at a time through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body or mind. Is there no sound now? No hearing now? No thinking now? ------ Nina. #113166 From: Vince Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Devas cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: Metta is developed to beings, true. We can think of beings with > displeasure or with mettaa. When we have mettaa, citta with metta is > being developed, that is kusala. Beings are in reality citta, > cetasika and ruupa, which do not stay. Beings are not real in the > ultimate sense, but we still think of them. Is it not better to think > with kusala cittas? > When a self looks for the other shore, for nibbaana, nibbaana will > not be reached. The idea of self has to be eradicated. This is a > process that occurs step by step. We can begin now: investigate > realities as they appear one at a time through the eyes, ears, nose, > tongue, body or mind. Is there no sound now? No hearing now? No > thinking now? ok, I understand. Thanks again :) Vince, #113167 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:41 pm Subject: Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > Just able to look at the computer for short bursts (being in front of the computer is another thing that is bringing on my cough), but you always make me smile! :-) I am glad, and hope your cough is getting better! ... > >R: That is pretty serious in my view, if you are in a state where you can't enjoy green tea. ... > S: Yes, I don't remember having flu before and not feeling able to eat or drink a thing. For one day, sips of ginger beer was all I could manage. Despite the circumstances, the ginger beer sounds good. That is very nice for both throat and stomach isn't it? > Anyway, well on the mend now and that's all gone. I even ate a proper breakfast today and managed to go to see a Chinese doctor for cupping and acupuncture. Sounds good! Glad to hear it! > ...More tomorrow, plus some Chinese herbs, so that'll soon shock my system back to recovery mode. That is nice you know about the herbs. Any special recommendations? I am confined pretty much to ginseng, dong quai for my wife, and some other basic things. > I have to be fully recovered by Sat week when Pt's coming for dhamma discussion because otherwise he's threatening to buy me an electro-larynx device! Yikes, that sounds scary. Pt, don't do it! > ... > >S:"it's gone!". That was it! > > > > I really like that a lot. It's very...zen. :-)) > .... > S: When your friends feel like they're dying and are full of self-pity, to just calmly and smilingly say "it's gone" takes real confidence in present moment understanding and detachment. Not many friends will appreciate it either! Well that is a good point. I was being a little glib, but I really did think it was a great moment. When things are at their most dramatic, especially when it's about the immediate past, to say "It's gone" cuts through everything. Yes, if someone is committed to their story of what is happening, that can seem pretty harsh and may not be appreciated at all. I wouldn't say it to someone who wouldn't get the context, that's for sure. They would just be hurt. But for KS to say that to you or Nina, I'd say - wow, very skillful. It really does remind me of zen. They are constantly reminding the monks that the moment is happening now and not to get lost in concept. That may be something that is at least somewhat in common. I remember one story where a monk says "Did you see that bird?" The zen master says: "Where is it now?" The monk says: "It has flown away." The zen master gives him a pinch or whatever and says: "When has it ever flown away?", meaning that the monk is holding onto a concept/memory of the bird and there's nothing there now. Likewise, the master is asked, "What is the meaning of enlightenment" or something like that, and he answers: "A pound of flax." Those answers are redirecting the monks back to "What's happening now." Anyway it's an interesting little harmony in disparate schools. > ... > > > "It's gone"....the movie, the dream, the fantasy about "sick Sarah"! Yup. As you say, it takes someone wise who knows you to cut that away, but in the right situation, if the person is as skillful as KS, I guess it's doing you a favor. > > As I think about how uncomfortable flu symptoms are, I am thinking about unpleasant vipaka and how I now notice when I am doing certain things, and think to myself - "Hm, you will experience the result of that later, Rob." Because of recent discussions on dsg I have lost my desire to kill annoying insects. > ... > S: I'm glad to hear it. It shows that it is the wise consideration, the understanding, not the rules that lead to such abstention. Yeah, it reminded me of the 'conditions' talk around here, because it really did sneak up on me which was kind of neat. I just suddenly had a different impulse and could see how it developed unbeknownst to me. > .... > S: And you know what? I'm sure you'll find that those little insects just stop being so annoying. Gently wiping them aside in a friendly manner or moving out of the way is so much simpler than the alternatives. They just want to live healthily too! Indeed. I won't try to offer them nutritional advice though. I'm not ready for that yet! > .... > > > > As a result of not being so reactive, I've been watching them a little more closely and I seem to be able to see these little guys have reactions, make decisions, etc., although all it adds up to is flying wildly in some other direction, or landing dangerously close to the water stream in the sink. Sort of like us...? > ... > S: Yes, just like us, flying around wildly in lobha, dosa and moha, trying to avoid trouble. Just like us....a condition for metta and karuna! Yes. It actually made me sad when I thought about them being stuck in this enclosed place and probably not even knowing it. What options do they have? And when you think about your own perspective, you are most likely in a box as well... Anyway, sadness = near enemy of compassion...? Somebody slap me! Okay, I feel better now. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #113168 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Thanks for this nice colloquy, Howard. I enjoyed it very much. > ------------------------------------------------------ > :-) I always enjoy our conversations. > ----------------------------------------------------- :-) Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - #113169 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:09 pm Subject: Re: Do the "god's" exist? ksheri3 [Revtriple] How so? > Are they simply metaphors? It does not seem this way to me....... > How is it possible that they ARE NOT SIMPLY METAPHORS to you and your understanding? What are the characteristics that "create" or "manifest" this "god" to your CONSCIOUSNESS and thus PROVE that they actually do exist? IF the Buddha had said something about "the gods" or IF the Buddha had not said anything about "the gods" WOULD THAT CHANGE YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS? Is the Buddha the sole arbiture concerning what exists and what does not exist? <...> Whether or not the Buddha exists or ever said anything does not matter to the question of "the gods" that you are speaking of. YOU ALREADY COME TO THE TABLE WITH A PREDETERMINED GOAL, OBJECTIVE, concerning these delusions about "gods" that you possessed long before you heard of a name like the Buddha. What are those characteristics that you are using to have PRE-DETERMINED your condition and which speak to your CONSCIOUSNESS? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "revtriple" wrote: > > > > > Is there a sutta in the Pali Canon Tipataka where Buddha is asked whether or not the gods actually exist and he answers that YES they do......But that they are within the realm of Samsara and are therefore impermanent? > > > Are they simply metaphors? It does not seem this way to me....... > #113170 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:45 pm Subject: Exquisite is Equanimity! bhikkhu5 Friends: Equanimity gives delicate Peace & Happiness! Equanimity (Upekkhā ) entails a composed equipoise of solid mental balance! It is Tatra-majjhattatā = keeping to the moderate middle of all phenomena. Equanimity balances consciousness so it prevents both all excessiveness and any deficiency. In equanimity mind is neither attracted by attractive things, nor repelled by repulsive things. The cause of equanimity is seeing the law of kamma: All beings are born and created by their kamma, they are owners of their kamma, inherit their kamma, whatever they do, whether good or bad, the effects of that will be theirs only, following them like a shadow of past! The effect of Equanimity is threefold: Exquisite, relaxed & subtle peace felt as calm happiness is instantly gained. Equanimity purifies and completes all the 7 crucial Links to Awakening... Equanimity is the proximate cause of knowledge and vision ( ñānadassana)! <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <...> #113171 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:44 am Subject: Final farewell! Many thanks to Sarah, Nina and all philofillet Hi all My last post in December may have left the impression (not that it matters, really) that I was abandoning Theravada for Mahayana, but fortunately that has not turned out to be the case, anything but. It is turning out to be a very diligent period in my life, with a lot of attention to appamada and guarding the sense doors. Not using the internet, or using it to a bare minimum for necessary communication has been huge, and I recommend an internet fast to any meditators out there, especially before going to bed, you'll find you wake with much better conditions for settling into concentrated states! :) I think my discomfort with the A.S approach essentially comes down to something Robert K said when we met for a talk some years ago, that it is necessary to get to the heartwood. My continuing impression is that A.S and her students seek to get to the heartwood too quickly. For example, "it is gone," that is being discussed now. It continues to puzzle me a bit that otherwise astute and truthful people don't see that when a respected teacher says "it is gone" about our troubling thing, there will then be a self-rooted, lobha-rooted grasping for understanding in order to gain comfort in line with that encouragement. I guess I am the only one who feels that laying a paramattha interpretation on daily troubles is sure to be a misappropriation of the paramattha teaching. I am content and will remain content to see my understanding parammatasize (parammatify?) at a gradual pace more in line with what I consider to be the correct understanding of the Buddha's gradual training. As A.S herself said memorably when asked "are there any shortcuts?", the shortcut is lobha. I want to thank Sarah (and Jon of course) for this wonderful site, and Nina for her wonderful generosity! And all friends here, perhaps we'll meet elsewhere on the net or in the flesh, so to speak! And until that changes, this is a fond and official farewell. Metta, Phil #113172 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:46 am Subject: Re: Final farewell! Many thanks to Sarah, Nina and all gazita2002 hallo Phil, sad to see you go - again. Feels a bit like farewelling someone off into Samsara, like who knows when we meet again and we wont remember anyway!! > Hi all > > My last post in December may have left the impression (not that it matters, really) that I was abandoning Theravada for Mahayana, but fortunately that has not turned out to be the case, anything but. It is turning out to be a very diligent period in my life, with a lot of attention to appamada and guarding the sense doors. Not using the internet, or using it to a bare minimum for necessary communication has been huge, and I recommend an internet fast to any meditators out there, especially before going to bed, you'll find you wake with much better conditions for settling into concentrated states! :) > > > > I think my discomfort with the A.S approach essentially comes down to something Robert K said when we met for a talk some years ago, that it is necessary to get to the heartwood. My continuing impression is that A.S and her students seek to get to the heartwood too quickly. For example, "it is gone," that is being discussed now. It continues to puzzle me a bit that otherwise astute and truthful people don't see that when a respected teacher says "it is gone" about our troubling thing, there will then be a self-rooted, lobha-rooted grasping for understanding in order to gain comfort in line with that encouragement. I guess I am the only one who feels that laying a paramattha interpretation on daily troubles is sure to be a misappropriation of the paramattha teaching. azita: no not the only one. There are many moments of doubt for me when I'm confused and think I'm trying too hard, cos thats not the right way blah, blah. Occasionally theres doubt that creates stories like 'what if this is all wrong' but as they say, doubt is jst another reality arising, doing its job and then falling away. I like this little quote from someone: The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. go well Phil with patience, courage and good cheer, azita #113173 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Final farewell! Many thanks to Sarah, Nina and all nilovg Dear Philip, Op 21-jan-2011, om 3:44 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I want to thank Sarah (and Jon of course) for this wonderful site, > and Nina for her wonderful generosity! And all friends here, > perhaps we'll meet elsewhere on the net or in the flesh, so to > speak! And until that changes, this is a fond and official farewell. ------ N: You are very kind, Philip. Just one thing. You fell over; 'It is gone', well, A.S. said this to Sarah after serious physical trouble, and Sarah could appreciate this, since she understands that life occurs only in one moment and then gone. Namely, only one citta experiences one object at the time and then it falls away. Thus, when we suffer from pain, there is also seeing in between. And at the moments of seeing, one cannot experience pain at the same time. This is very realistic, it is not an easy way for comfort, as you may think. It takes a lot of considering realities and a beginning at least of awareness when they occur. I find it an excellent reminder not taking our troubles too seriously. We believe that things last. Our whole life is ephemeral. Let us search for the truth. This is the Path leading to the end of dukkha. Not sure your farewell is for the last time;-)) Nina. #113174 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Final farewell! Many thanks to Sarah, Nina and all upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 1/20/2011 11:43:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: I think my discomfort with the A.S approach essentially comes down to something Robert K said when we met for a talk some years ago, that it is necessary to get to the heartwood. My continuing impression is that A.S and her students seek to get to the heartwood too quickly. For example, "it is gone," that is being discussed now. It continues to puzzle me a bit that otherwise astute and truthful people don't see that when a respected teacher says "it is gone" about our troubling thing, there will then be a self-rooted, lobha-rooted grasping for understanding in order to gain comfort in line with that encouragement. I guess I am the only one who feels that laying a paramattha interpretation on daily troubles is sure to be a misappropriation of the paramattha teaching. I am content and will remain content to see my understanding parammatasize (parammatify?) at a gradual pace more in line with what I consider to be the correct understanding of the Buddha's gradual training. As A. S herself said memorably when asked "are there any shortcuts?", the shortcut is lobha. ======================================= I understand what you are saying, Phil: Due to our being immersed in grasping and desire, we can take the most sublime of teachings and subvert them. However, perhaps skillful means can assuage this tendency. I find that repeated contemplation of important matters such as "It is gone," particularly at times when one is not in the midst of stress, can, along with a practice of regular mindful attention to whatever is in process, regular introspection, and - sorry folks(!) - frequent meditation (especially of the samatha variety for me) can cultivate an ease of mind and support for dealing with what may be troubling. I think, in particular, that keeping "It is gone" regularly in mind, a fact about reality that is always and ever true, fostering the perspective of evanescence and "Everything is emptying," helps bring one peace. An aside: This business brings to my mind the Zen story of a young neophyte pointing to a flock of geese in the sky and saying "Look! Look!" to his teacher, and the Zen master replying "They are gone!" :-) With metta, Howard Impermanence /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #113175 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Final farewell! Many thanks to Sarah, Nina and all sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, I appreciate your comments and also the skilful replies which Azita, Nina and Howard have already written. Don't we spend a lot of time dwelling on the past, planning our future, lost in our thoughts? For example: --- On Fri, 21/1/11, philip wrote: >My last post in December may have left the impression (not that it matters, really) that I was abandoning Theravada for Mahayana, .... S: As you say, it doesn't matter....it's all gone! What about now? ... > but fortunately that has not turned out to be the case, anything but. It is turning out to be a very diligent period in my life, with a lot of attention to appamada and guarding the sense doors. Not using the internet, or using it to a bare minimum for necessary communication has been huge, and I recommend an internet fast to any meditators out there, especially before going to bed, you'll find you wake with much better conditions for settling into concentrated states! :) .... S: Again, what about now? Is there any understanding and awareness of what is appearing through the sense doors now? Is there hardness now? Is there visible object now? ..... >I think my discomfort with the A.S approach essentially comes down to something Robert K said when we met for a talk some years ago, that it is necessary to get to the heartwood. .... S: Is there anything but "heartwood" at this moment? If there is no understanding of the "heartwood", dhammas as anatta, now, then we're bound to be lost in the past or future again. For me, it has nothing to do with any "approach" and I don't care who or where I hear good reminders about this moment. I mentioned before that I went on a yoga workshop around Xmas and the teacher's words encouraged some helpful reflections about this moment and how we tend to take ourselves, our lives so seriously, causing so much anxiety. When I shared some of my reflections with the class about the present moment as the only worthy "resolution", they also found it helpful. It doesn't have to be any deep insight to appreciate that what's gone is not worth dwelling on. .... >My continuing impression is that A.S and her students seek to get to the heartwood too quickly. For example, "it is gone," that is being discussed now. It continues to puzzle me a bit that otherwise astute and truthful people don't see that when a respected teacher says "it is gone" about our troubling thing, there will then be a self-rooted, lobha-rooted grasping for understanding in order to gain comfort in line with that encouragement. I guess I am the only one who feels that laying a paramattha interpretation on daily troubles is sure to be a misappropriation of the paramattha teaching. .... S: I think you think too much! Again, what is the citta now? It doesn't matter how you or anyone else responded in the past to such comments or who said them. Now, all that's gone! Is there wise attention now or is there anxiety, attachment, aversion or doubt? .... >I am content and will remain content to see my understanding parammatasize (parammatify?) at a gradual pace more in line with what I consider to be the correct understanding of the Buddha's gradual training. As A.S herself said memorably when asked "are there any shortcuts?", the shortcut is lobha. ... S: Yes - if there is any interest in developing the path at any other time or in any other way other than just understanding what appears now, it's the shortcut of lobha one is looking for again. .... >I want to thank Sarah (and Jon of course) for this wonderful site, and Nina for her wonderful generosity! And all friends here, perhaps we'll meet elsewhere on the net or in the flesh, so to speak! And until that changes, this is a fond and official farewell. ... S: Thanks, Phil! It's always a joy to have you here for company and to discuss Dhamma together. We'll always consider you a good friend that helps us to reflect on the Dhamma more deeply. "Through hankering for the future, Through sorrowing over the past, Fools dry up and wither away Like a green reed cut down." SN 10:10 (Bodhi transl) Metta sarah ====== #113176 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:07 am Subject: What is Mind? bhikkhu.sama... A friend asked: >What is Mind? Mind (Mano) is an ever changing collection of these 5 phenomena: 1: Contact, 2: Feeling, 3: Perception, 4: Intention and 5: Attention! Regarding Consciousness itself: Consciousness is NOT created by the brain, but RESIDES WITHIN the brain (for some but not all beings)! Just like the beer is inside the bottle, but is not created by the bottle... To identify Mind only with Brain is a (false) view, which actually is a philosophical (often dogmatic) standpoint, and NOT a scientifically & experimentally verified fact. This tantalizing IDEA is called physicalism or materialism! On this common, yet wrong assumption named Mind-Brain Identity Theory see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wi ki/Type_physicalism http://plato.stanford.edu/ entries/mind-identity/ http://www.philosophyofmin d.info/mindbrainidentity.html >What is going from this life to the next? In brief: Causal Conditioning! Please see: http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/III/What_passes_on_by_Rebirth-Linking.htm Regarding Buddhist Theory of Rebirth-Linking (patisandhi) see also: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/n_r/patisandhi.htm For an Orthodox Buddhist explanation of the transmigration of consciousness: Rebirth Explained: V. F. Gunaratna, BPS, Kandy, Wheel Publication No. 167-69 http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Wheels/wh_167_169.html http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Wheels/wh_167_168_169.pdf U were reborn into this life! U are reborn millions of times each second! Since existence is a chain of discrete conscious moments! Like pearls on a string. One after the other Again and again and again hehehe ;-) Samsara = Suffering Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #113177 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:28 am Subject: Kusala intention (was, Re: The clansman who is a beginner ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E Thanks for the set of detailed replies, and my apologies for the delay in getting back to you (thought I'd give you a breather ;-)) In an effort to make life easier for us both, I will try to keep each reply to a single issue or set of issues. (112964) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: ... > That's very technical. I think it's just as fair to say that intention will be kusala if the intention itself is kusala. Maybe we can't say whether it is or not, but it either is or isn't. > =============== J: You say "if the intention itself is kusala". You are I think suggesting that an intention to do something wholesome would be kusala intention. As I understand the teachings, however, there's no intention that is "itself kusala". The intention to do something 'wholesome' will only be kusala if the citta itself is kusala, that is to say, is kusala by virtue of being accompanied by mental factors that are wholesome per se, such as saddha or metta or panna. There is not in the teachings a class of kusala equivalent to the conventional idea of resolving/aspiring to do something 'good'. > =============== > It seems like when we talk, we can't make a bridge from intention to action, only kusala cetasikas by association with kusala cittas. > =============== J: A citta is kusala or akusala by virtue of the cetasikas by which it is accompanied. A citta cannot be kusala by virtue of its object (such as the idea of "developing the path"). On the other hand, nor is it a case of having to first have the right kind of intention in order for kusala citta to arise. Since there is in all of us the accumulated tendency for the various kinds of kusala, kusala of any kind may arise quite spontaneously. A conscious intention to develop kusala is not a prerequisite condition. > =============== I keep waiting for you to declare that actions don't really exist and that's why they're not part of the path. No one actually does anything, they just either experience kusala or akusala, because existence is totally passive experiencing and there is no body and no action to be taken. Isn't that basically it? > =============== J: That's not how I'd put it. I find it more helpful to speak/think in terms of dhammas, since these were what the Buddha taught about at great length. I would say that as an understanding of dhammas is gradually developed, the conventional world becomes less relevant in terms of what really matters. However, it remains pertinent in terms of one's every-day life and social intercourse. > =============== > > Examples of such kusala consciousness might be saddha (confidence in the Buddha/Dhamma) or panna (understanding), these being mental qualities that are inherently kusala. > > Those are fine, but where's the bridge from confidence and energy to bhavana? And from there to vipassana and panna? How is the path actually followed? > =============== J: It's not a matter of creating a bridge. There are already accumulated tendencies for all wholesome qualities including panna (and it is the arising of panna that is meant by bhavana/development in the context of samatha and vipassana bhavana). It's a matter of these accumulated tendencies being conditioned to (re-)arise. The conditions for that arising, as explained by the Buddha, include hearing the teachings appropriately explained, understanding at an intellectual level what has been heard, and reflecting on what has been understood. > =============== > > (In the texts, such moments are typically designated by reference to the particular kusala quality concerned, e.g. as instances of saddha or panna, rather than as moments of kusala intention.) > > Yeah, I see you've got my kusala intention to follow the path and follow the Buddha's instructions boxed out of the picture - presumably because there is no practice and no action to be taken, so I should sit back and enjoy the ride rather than doing anything. > =============== J: You imply that the intention to follow the path and follow the Buddha's instructions is likely to be kusala. If only it were that easy! Such intention is likely to be based on desire for results or a wish to be different from what we now are. Jon #113178 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:40 pm Subject: Calm => Happy :-) bhikkhu5 Friends: The 8 Pleasures of the Reclusive Sage: The absence of possessions and possessiveness... Blameless daily begging of alms food... Content, calm and composed with modest needs... Detached ease regarding all phenomena... Fearlessness of robbery, violence and loss... Freedom from government, and taxation... Freedom from bosses, and administrators... Unobstructed in all directions and realms... JOY Oh let us live happily! Freed from aversion, going even among those, who hate. Among those in anger, let us live free from all anger. Dhammapada Illustration 197 Background Story 197+198+199 CONTENTED Oh let us live happily! Freed from discontent, going easy among those, who want ever more. Among those dissatisfied let us live free from any discontent. Dhammapada Illustration 198 Background Story 197+198+199 NOTHING Oh let us live happily! Having nothing at all! Let us feed on Joy, just like the bright shining Devas. Dhammapada Illustration 200 Background Story 200 GREAT Health is the greatest gain. Contentment is the greatest treasure. Confidence is the greatest company. Nibbana is the greatest Bliss ... Dhammapada Illustration 204 Background Story 204 SWEET The one who has tasted the sweetness of solitude in cooled calm, such one fears not, wrongdo not, as so indeed is the sweetness of the joy of Dhamma. Dhammapada Illustration 205 Background Story 205 <....> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #113179 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:57 am Subject: Meditation (was, The clansman ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (112964) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: I'm happy to discuss any passage you care to quote dealing with what you call meditation ;-)) > > What I call meditation? Like I said, you want to surgically excise a large portion of the Dhamma by saying that meditation doesn't exist. > =============== J: No, I'm not discounting any portion of the teachings. I'm simply saying that the Buddha spoke about the development of tranquility and insight (samatha- and vipassana-bhavana), not about 'meditation', which for most people connotes a particular kind of technique (not exclusive the teachings). There were at the time of the Buddha many, many monks who, because of highly developed kusala, lived a particular lifestyle and were able to attain the jhanas. These monks were of course praised by the Buddha for their attainments, and when they were taught the development of awareness/insight, they were taught it as someone who was also developing high levels of samatha/jhana, so naturally the development of samatha/jhana, and their highly kusala lifestyle, figured in the teaching. This does not mean, however, that the Buddha was saying that other people need to attain those same levels of samatha/jhana, or to lead the same kind of lifestyle, in order to develop awareness/insight. When reading suttas that were addressed to these high attainers, it's necessary to distinguish between what is being said in regard to the further development of samatha/jhana and what is being taught as the development of as the path (insight). > =============== I mean it's one thing to say you prefer dry insight and think it's a more reasonable approach for people like ourselves, but to say that there is no meditation in Buddhism, despite the ubiquitous practices of anapanasati, satipatthana as meditation practice, and jhana on the part of almost everyone in the entire sutta body, is pretty incredibly extreme. > =============== J: It's not a question of 2 different approaches: dry insight vs. meditation. Nobody can know in what manner (or when) enlightenment will eventually be attained. The attainment of jhana does not ensure that if enlightenment is attained it will be with jhana as basis (for which reason, by the way, the class of dry insight attainers includes persons who had attained jhana prior to their enlightenment). The point I'm trying to make is, first, that that the teachings do not talk about anapanasati, satipatthana or jhana in terms of "meditation practices" (that seems to be a current-day gloss on the teachings), nor do they speak in terms of selecting or preferring either a dry-insight or a jhana-based approach. > =============== > When Buddha went through the jhanas forwards and backwards including the immaterial states and demonstrated that as he entered his parinibbana, do you think he was doing that just for the heck of it? He became enlightened through anapanasati in sitting meditation, and left this world in sitting meditation through the jhanas. I guess that has no meaning and should not be practiced by any Buddhists? What do you think he was demonstrating by coming and going in that way? That it was a coincidence? > =============== J: It is of course a well-known fact that the Buddha attained both enlightenment and parinibbana in a seated position, after passing throught the jhanas. However, that does not mean we should take the seated posture or jhanas as being a pre-requisite for the development of the path ;-)). Taking instances from the Buddha's life and trying to infer/deduce points of doctrine from them is likely to lead to a different idea of the development of the path that is to be gained by studying what the Buddha said to others on the subject. I believe our focus should be on the explanation of the path as given by the Buddha in his teachings to others, not on the conventional circumstances of his own attaining of enlightenment (posture, food and exercise, lifestyle, etc.). > =============== > > J: Yes, there's lots of intentional activity for all of us (and for the enlightened being also), and we couldn't live without it. I've never suggested otherwise. > > Then why take away one's natural predilection for meditation if it is one's natural inclination? And why worry that it is akusala if that is the case? > =============== J: The question we're discussing is what the Buddha said the path to be. I don't think he ever said the path was meditation, or was doing some activity that, for the 'uninstructed worldling', would necessarily involve akusala. > =============== > > What I'm questioning is the role of akusala moments of any kind in the development of the path. > > Yes, but I don't see why that sheds any light on the Buddha's relationship to meditation or its inclusion as a most important part of the path. What is akusala about *it,* if kusala and akusala come from past accumulations and apply to individual moments in *any* activity? > =============== J: Yes, any deliberate activity is, for the uninstructed worldling, bound to involve akusala. Now that's not a problem in itself, unless we take the path to involve the undertaking of some kind of deliberate activity, in which case it does become a problem because we are taking the Buddha to be endorsing a form of 'practice' that necessarily involves a lot of akusala. > =============== > > J: I would agree that lurking self-based motives are the great enemy of the development of the path. But there's a distinction to be made, as I see it, between (for example) taking part in discussions here and doing something that one takes to be a 'practice'. > > I take being here to be just as much a practice as meditation. > =============== J: I do not regard my time spent on the list as 'practice', and I'd be surprised if others did ;-)) > =============== And I think it's kind of absurd to say the more casual one's involvement in something like this, the more kusala it is, and the more one intends it as part of the path the more akusala it is likely to be. Buddha advocated great ardor and great effort to follow the path, not sneaking past it to make it more kusala by not intending anything. > =============== J: The effort the Buddha spoke of was the (kusala) mental factor of that name, not the conventional idea we have of pushing oneself into doing something, or exerting hard to make something happen. Whenever the citta is kusala, it is accompanied by the kusala mental factor of effort (viriya or, at moments of insight, the mundane path factor known as samma vayama). This mental factor itself develops until it is of the strength necessary to accompany path consciousness. We should not think of effort in the conventional sense of making a conscious/deliberate effort since, in the case of the conscious/deliberate effort to have more kusala, that is likely to be attachment or wrong view of one form or another. > =============== > > The former need not involve the idea of making awareness arise or creating the conditions for its arising, whereas the latter necessarily does. > > They are both done to create conditions for awareness to arise and for path factors to develop. Nobody is on this list because they have nothing better to do, and if that is the case it's not going to make their participation more kusala. When I meditate I take what comes. I do it because I know the Buddha advocated it to develop awareness, and I don't try to dictate how or when that will take place. I am content to be on the path, and don't really have a schedule. I'm perfectly happy to read, meditate or discuss as the occasion allows, as taught by the Buddha in hundreds of suttas and in important parts of the Abhidhamma. > =============== J: The Buddha spoke about hearing and discussing and reflecting upon the teachings as being necessary conditions for the development of the path. He did not say the same about any form of 'sitting practice'. Jon #113180 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:57 am Subject: Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? sarahprocter... Hi Pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > S: ...All kinds of dhammas have to be experienced and known, including all the sense experiences and objects. In the arupa brahma realm, there are no rupas and therefore there is no chance to become a sotapanna there. > > >Pt: In fact, I'm curious about both sentences - firstly, why all dhammas have to be experienced and known? I thought magga citta arises in respect of a certain dhamma that fell away, so that dhamma is kind of enough to know for the process to happen. .... S: Long before that time, all kinds of dhammas have to be thoroughly known in order for there to be detachment from them, in order for them to really be understood as anicca, dukkha and anatta. For example, in the rupa brahma realm certain rupas can appear, but this isn't sufficient to understand and become detached from rupas appearing through all 5 sense doorways or for there to be detachment from the cittas that experience these rupas. ... >PT:Maybe you mean before that even happens, all dhammas need to be thoroughly known already for insight to get to that strength when magga citta can happen. But even then I'm not sure I see why *all* dhammas need to be known. .... S: Yes, that was what I meant. "All kinds of" dhammas would have been a better way to say it! I don't mean every single dhamma! ... > >Pt: And second, aside from the related matter that I don't quite see what's the difference to develpment of panna for an arupa brahma being whether he knows rupas or not, I also think I heard/read somewhere that one of the reasons rebirth in arupa brahma planes should not be aimed for is because there are no senses there, so no chance to actually hear/read dhamma teachings, and that's the reason why enlightenment in those planes is unlikely. Is that right? Since you seem to be giving a different reason. .... S: For those who are already sotapannas, higher stages of enlightenment can occur in the arupa brahma realms. Because of the jhana abilities, there may also be the opporunity to have access to the teachings. However, as I understand, there is no chance to develop insight up to becoming a sotapanna because of the lack of opportunity to thoroughly understand sense objects and experiences as well as the difficulty in hearing/reading the Dhamma. Namas have to be clearly distinguished from rupas even at the first stage of insight. This can only occur when both namas and rupas have been thoroughly understood with such insight. .... > >Pt: And since I'm here, a few largely unrelated questions: > - can beings in the arupa brahma planes actually be aware of beings in lower realms? > - can beings in arupa brahma planes have divine-eye and divine-ear, even if they don't have the usual eyes and ears? > - for heavenly beings in rupa planes - their bodies are still made of four elements, but in some finer combination I guess? .... S: I'd say "yes" to all these, though I don't know much about them. Metta Sarah ======== #113181 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind vs matter. Materialsm vs Idealism. sarahprocter... Hi Pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > S: ...Even the Bodhisatta was influenced to behave very badly and break various precepts (except lying) in various rebirths. > > Nina also mentioned this fact in a recent post (#112885) about the bodhisatta never lying. I was wondering: > - what text does that detail come from? ... S: Nina already gave the ref from the Jatakas ... > - what's your understanding why not lying is so important (I mean, to me it seems killing someone is a much worse breach of precepts than lying)? ... S: My understanding is that when someone lies, they become more and more ensnared and may become capable of doing anything. .... > - also, that would include all lying? So even seemingly harmless stuff like white lies, etc, would be included, right? ... S: "White lies" are lies! I remember a friend in Bangkok telling me of her "white lie", putting the blame on others, rather than herself. It just seemed like a big lie to me! Anyway, it comes down to the citta at each moment and we can only know the strength of our own akusala at such times. ... > > On another related matter that Nina and you mentioned recently - when speaking about the bodhisatta in the situation when children were being mean to him - he wasn't experiencing dosa at the time, but instead he was developing the parami of equanimity: > > I'm wondering there, what sort of citta arises for him (while the parami of equanimity is being developed) - here's my line of thinking, please correct me if I'm wrong: > > 1. if there's no dosa, but developing of parami, then it's a kusala citta. > > 2. if there's development of parami at the time - then it must be a kusala citta with 3 roots of amoha, adosa and alobha. > > 3. if there's amoha (panna) but a bodhisatta cannot experience any of the insight knowledges prior to the last life, then that panna can only be of the level of intellectual understanding. Is that right? ... S: I understand it can be much more than that. Satipatthana can even develop, but not to the degree of insight. A difficult area. ... >I mean, I assume a bodhisatta can never actually experience a dhamma directly so to speak (as in satipathana), otherwise he'd end up on the first stage of insight too soon. So then it seems the only sort of panna left for him is the right intellectual understanding? ... S: For the bodhisatta, all the ingredients have to be "cooked" very perfectly so that all conditions are in place, all paramis developed, ready for enlightenment to occur in the last life. So the process takes far more aeons than even for the key disciples and for them far more time than for lesser disciples and so on. We know that the Buddha heard the teachings from previous Buddhas, but only during his last lifetime, were the ingredients all ready. We can read about all of this in the commentaries. .... > > Though, I recall Jon saying something to the effect that a dhamma can be experienced directly (as in satipatthana), but it would not be as consistent and clear enough as experienced on the first stage of (tender) insight. So this would be satipatthana - direct experience of a dhamma, but not yet any stage of insight. So perhaps this sort of panna is also accessible to a bodhisatta? Thanks. ... S: Yes, like now! Metta Sarah ======= #113182 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:22 am Subject: Satipatthana Sutta - Cemetary Contemplation (was, Re: A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (112965) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: As far as the Satipatthana Sutta is concerned, there's no actual recommendation and no reference to a 'practice' of any kind. The text of the sutta reads as follows: > > > > "And further, O bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu, in whatever way, sees a body dead, one, two, or three days: swollen, blue and festering, thrown into the charnel ground, he thinks of his own body thus: 'This body of mine too is of the same nature as that body, is going to be like that body and has not got past the condition of becoming like that body.'" > > > > This seems to be saying something like the following: "If a dead body is seen, there is the reflecting on how one's own body is of the same nature as the corpse now seen." > > Well I hate to say it's fruitless to have this argument over semantic tense rather than content. If you really think that everything the Buddha mentions in the style of the day, in the present tense, is just an observation and not brought up for any purpose, there's no way to debate it on the merits. > =============== J: In giving my paraphrase of the sutta passage, I was not suggesting that it was 'just an observation and not brought up for any purpose'. We are discussing the meaning of the 'Cemetery contemplation' part of the sutta. At issue is whether, when the Buddha spoke about the contemplation of corpses, he was: (a) giving a general recommendation for a course of 'practice' consisting of undertaking that form of contemplation (in cemeteries) as part of the development of awareness/insight, (this is the view you favour), or (b) primarily speaking to/for the benefit of those who were already (or who had the potential to become) experienced and highly skilled in that contemplation, and explaining how awareness/insight might be developed at the same time as samatha is further developed. The question is which of these views fits best with a plain reading of the words of the sutta here as we have them. I've told you why I think it's the latter view. Jon PS On the question of teachings that are the exclusive province of the Buddha: > > > It's still a corpse contemplation, a chosen object, just like so many other Buddhist meditation subjects, and it was invented by the Buddha. > > > =============== > > > > J: I'm not sure this is correct. Are you perhaps confusing the cemetery contemplations with the reflection on repulsiveness (parts of the body)? > > I don't think so. But as usual I can't find anything when I want to. Blame it on conditions, accumulations and kamma... > =============== J: From the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta: "This reflection by way of mindfulness directed bodywards, called the reflection of repulsiveness, is unknown to non-Buddhists in the form of subject of meditation development (kammatthana bhavana vasena). Hence it is a thing which comes into being when a Buddha arises; not at other times." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html As far as I know, contemplation on corpses was a practice known at the time of the Buddha's birth. Note, as a side issue, that the original Pali for the English 'meditation' here is 'bhavana', which simply means 'development' (I'm not sure about the significance of the Pali 'vasena'). #113183 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:33 am Subject: Dhammas vs. Conventional objects/activities (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (112965) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > Buddha said many things and his own stipulation is that he did not mention anything that was not meant to form the path out of suffering. He said "I teach only suffering and the cessation of suffering." So I assume if he is talking about something he thinks it's worthwhile for the path, whatever semantic framework it may be in. "If X, then Y" was the form of many of the teachings. They were still teachings, they were still Dhamma, and they were given to be followed by those for whom they were helpful. > =============== J: I agree with what you say above, except that I would say that the teachings were given to be *understood* rather than to be *followed*. After all, there's a world of difference between the statement "If there is X, then Y will be the result" and the statement "If you want to achieve Y, then do some Xing". To my understanding, when the Buddha is saying "If there is X, then Y will be the result", X and Y are to be understood as referring to specific dhammas, since it is the world of dhammas that the Buddha became enlightened to and taught about (pretty much everything else was already known to conventional wisdom). > =============== > > The world of dhammas is another world altogether from the world of conventional objects. > > Well we disagree about that as well. The Abhidhammasangaha says that the conventional concepts we deal with in the conventional world are shadows of dhammas and they reveal the dhammas in a distorted way. > =============== J: I recall the mention of 'shadows of dhammas', but not the mention of conventional objects as 'revealing dhammas in a distorted way'. Conventional objects do not reveal dhammas; if anything, they conceal them. > =============== In that way it is a distortion of the one world, seen in shadow and without full detail, not a totally separate world. That notion makes of our world a full-blown illusion, without any connection to reality. I believe that the Buddha taught that this world is the doorway to the path. After all, when you read the Dhamma, if it were totally illusion, it would have no connection to the path. > =============== J: The idea of the conventional world as the doorway to the path, with conventional objects as the doorway to dhammas, is one that I've not heard expressed until now. It seems to me to be an approach that would take one away from the understanding of the dhammas appearing at the present moment. Consider, as an example, the present situation. As I am writing this post or as you are reading it, there is a computer monitor in our field of vision (among many other things). The dhammas that are seeing and visible object, however, have nothing to do with computer monitor (or any other conventional object). I don't see how focussing on the conventional object of computer monitor would help in coming to a better understanding of the dhammas of seeing consciousness or visible object. > =============== > > > > =============== > > J: To my reading of the texts, the Buddha was at pains to separate the skilful contemplation of conventional objects (samatha bhavana) from the understanding of dhammas (vipassana bhavana). Regardless of the level of a disciples' skill in the former, it was the latter that was pointed to as being the path. > > Doesn't seem that way in the anapanasati sutta, or in the satipatthana sutta, where he goes back and forth between samatha and vipassana. > =============== J: The point is that each is distinguished from the other, for the benefit of the person who is already experienced/skilled in samatha and is developing both samatha and awareness/insight. > =============== > > Of the 3 kinds of contemplation mentioned in this passage, I would say it's only the third that is awareness/insight (the first 2, which talk about 'constituents' and 'component 'parts', would be bhavana, as I read it). > =============== J: Sorry, there was a typo in my post. It should have read "the first 2, which talk about 'constituents' and 'component 'parts', would be *samatha* bhavana, as I read it". See sutta text repasted at end of this message.) > =============== > Is the sutta or the commentary advocating that only the third contemplation is correct practice? When you say bhavana about the other two, are you saying they are steppingstones to the third way of contemplating? > =============== J: See my clarification just above. To my understanding, all 3 contemplations are bhavana; the first 2 are samatha, the last vipassana. The purpose is to indicate how, for those experienced and skilled in samatha bhavana based on the foulness of the body, vipassana bhavana is something else yet again. > =============== > What exactly is the status as regards the path of all the practices that you are calling bhavana, as opposed to those that give direct insight by contemplating dhammas? > =============== J: See comments above. Apologies for any confusion due to the typo. Jon > > From the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, section on body contemplation: > > > > "There can be nothing apart from the qualities of primary and derived materiality, in a body. > > "Indeed the character of contemplating the collection of the major and the minor corporeal members, is like the seeing of the constituents of a cart. > > "The character of contemplating the collection of the hair of the head, the hair of the body and the like is comparable to the seeing of the component parts of a city; > > "and the character of contemplating the collection of primary and derived materiality is comparable to the separation of the leaf covering of a plantain-trunk, or is like the opening of an empty fist." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html #113184 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:54 am Subject: Re: depression, skill, sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > >S: - Depression - no need to name it, just unpleasant feeling. > > > > > >A: It is much more than dukkha-vedana. Sankharas are involved there as well. I wonder which cetasikas exactly? > > .... > > S: It's the unpleasant feeling we're so concerned about. This is >why vedana has its own khandha and why the 3 kinds of dukkha are >described in terms of vedana. > > IMHO dukkha is not limited to just vedana khandha, but all 5 khandhas as well. ... S: All khandhas, all conditioned realities are dukkha. Usually, when people refer to depression, however, it is the dukkha dukkha, in particular, the unpleasant mental feeling, domanassa, that they are disturbed by. .... > > Painful feeling is painful, but the emotional dislike (sankhara khandha) is often far greater than the actual pain. ... S: There are two kinds of painful feeling - a)bodily feeling (dukkha) which accompanies the unpleasant experience of tangible objects through the body sense, i.e painful feeling and b) the mental feeling (domanassa) which accompanies all cittas rooted in dosa. Both kinds of unpleasant feeling are mental and included in vedana khandha, not sankhara khandha. The cittas they accompany, are all included in vinnana khandha. .... > > > > - Why ordain again? <...> > >S: He also said that another meaning of bhikkhu was the person who >developed satipatthana now. > > > >S: Can we be bhikkhus at this moment? >A: According to the suttas and the commentaries, to completely fulfill satipatthana as described in the suttas and commentaries, one needs to actually retreat in a secluded place. So it is almost like temporary ordination. .... S: In the commentary to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (ch V), it talks about how a monk who violates the Patimokkha rules does not practise in accordance with dhamma (dhammaanudhammapa.tipannaa). The same applies to nuns or to lay people who violate the precepts. It also talks (later) about how all "others' doctrines are devoid of true renunciates" and how it is only the monks, nuns and lay-people who develop vipassanaaa, leading to the four paths, that are true renunciates. Nowhere in the texts does it say that everyone has to ordain or go to a (physically) secluded place. Seclusion can be now if there is the development of satipatthana at this moment. Here are the rupas and namas to be known! .... > Furthermore, not all levels of "bhikkhu/ni" are the same. IMHO dhutanga practices are higher level practices than non-dhutanga practices. Dhutanga practices are praised by the Buddha and commentaries such as VsM. ... S: Yes, bhikkhus like Maha Kassapa are to be highly praised, not imitated by others with different accumulations. The Buddha never told Ananda to live like Maha Kassapa. He was taught to develop satipatthana. ... > IMHO, the more kilesas one has, the more one has to do to counter them and the harder the path will be. ... S: You have it wrong here Alex. It sounds like you're saying that the stronger the kilesas, the more wrong view of Self there should be, trying to make a special Big Effort to counter-act these defilements. This is what makes the path so very, very hard. Impossible, in fact! It's the wrong view of Self that is the problem - no understanding at the present moment. ... >Those who "became Arhats while cooking" had incredible accumulations, and their stories are irrelevant for us, unless we are already an Aryan. They could have done dhutanga practices in their former lives, and so they lacked some other aspect of the Dhamma that was "the last straw that broke camel's back". ... S: It doesn't matter in the slightest whether someone became an arahat while cooking or during a dhutanga practice. For all, the only practice is the development of understanding of realities at the present moment. Anything else is an illusion of another time and situation. Again, referring to the same passage which Nina mentioned to you from the commentary to the Mahaaparinibbana Sutta, ch 111, p 93: "Those who practise a dhamma consistent with the dhamma (dhaammaanudhamma-pa.tipannaa): Those who practise the teaching of insight (vipassanaa), which is consistent with the teachings of the noble (ariyadhammassa). " Nothing is said about needing to ordain or follow dhutanga practices. Metta Sarah ======== #113185 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Han), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Text: those whose moral habits conform to the dhamma.> > Footnote tiikas: According to the Puraanatiika, anudhamma seems to > refer to such an austere precept as wanting little, which is suitable > for purifying knowledge and vision (Udaana co 327). > ------- > Now for this remark I would like to hear some input from you and Han. > Why especially wanting little? Perhaps just being interested in the > Dhamma may lead to it that one will be less interested in other > things? I am not inclined to see this as an austerity, more like a > natural course. I do not know whether the word austerity is from the > translator. > ------- ... S: See more detail in Ch 5, p.145 of the comy of the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (PTS) which may be helpful: "In the text, practising in accordance with dhamma: entering upon the path of the prior stage (pubba-bhaaga-pa.tipada), which is the prior dhamma (anudhamma) of the ninefold transcendental dhamma. It is that path that is called 'right', because it is suitable. The right entering: entering upon the right path. Anudhamma-behaving: one carries out and behaves in the prior dhamma (anudhamma) which is reckoned as the path of the prior stage." More details and notes follow in the text. Metta Sarah ======== #113186 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabhava is just an Annihilationist Atta view applied to micro s... sarahprocter... hi Ken O & Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > lakkhana are the three characteristics on all conditioned dhammas even panna is > also anicca, dukkha and anatta. It is the nature of conditioned dhammas, > Whereas sabhava is explaining the nature of the individual characteristics of > conditioned dhammas. All dhammas are not self, no essence or no being. So when > sabhava, its plain meaning is just explaining that each dhamma as its own unique > properties but it is still anccia, anatta and dukkha for conditioned dhammas. ... S: Nicely said! .... > > So it is impossible for dhammas to have a self or a being because it is by > nature not self irregardless how we want to describe the uniqueness of each > dhamma like sabhava. Call it another name or what, it does not affect an ounce > towards the nature of dhamma and the uniqueness of each dhamma. ... S: Again, well said. Call it any name....! Lukas, always glad to see your questions and comments too. Metta Sarah ========= #113187 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:53 am Subject: Re: pain sarahprocter... Dear Alex, #108515 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > >Very poor health, and lots of health problems. This is the biggest reason why I > > > > >haven't ordained yet. Pain, headaches, drowsiness often wrecks concentration and <...> > > KO: do such matters prevent you from understanding dhamma. > >A: No (or at least not always. Sometimes I am almost semi-conscious and it is hard to think at that time). > > >A: But the health does put a difficulty in reaching and holding tranquility, something that I believe could be a good basis for even more understanding AND to suppress unwholesome tendencies which I have plenty. Unfortunately I very often react to pain in an unwholesome way (ex: irritation, lack of sense restraint), and that is not good. ... S: Even at such times of pain and health problems or semi-consciousness, there can be awareness and understanding, Alex. We read about many followers who developed insight when bitten by a snake, on their death-beds, wracked with pain and so on. At any moment of understanding of a reality, there is tranquility. We don't need to go looking for another tranquility. Do you take some exercise, some walking for example, in the fresh air? Even the bhikkhus needed their walking exercise to keep their bodies strong. Wishing you the best with your health problems! Metta Sarah ======== #113188 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna sarahprocter... Hi Kevin (& Pt), #108401 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin F wrote: > Kevin: Hi Pt. You might be thinking of the first stage, knowledge of the > difference between nama and rupa. At that stage panna can understand the > difference of nama and rupa and know about that distinction, but I don't think > that means that one begins to know about the differences between specific > dhammas any better than one did before as far as I understand. Perhaps others > will be able to add and help us out. .... S: Panna has to clearly understand the characteristics of particular dhammas as appearing. For example, sound is clearly understood as sound, hearing as hearing and so on. "Knowledge of the difference between nama and rupa" means clearly understanding the particular dhammas when they appear, clearly understanding that, sound, for example, doesn't expderience anything at all, but that hearing does. Furthermore, each sound, each moment of hearing is different and they are also different from any other dhammas. Let's discuss this in more detail if you like. Metta Sarah ======== #113189 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you for the notes and I'll look it up. Nina. Op 23-jan-2011, om 7:03 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > S: See more detail in Ch 5, p.145 of the comy of the > Mahaparinibbana Sutta (PTS) which may be helpful: > > "In the text, practising in accordance with dhamma: entering upon > the path of the prior stage (pubba-bhaaga-pa.tipada), which is the > prior dhamma (anudhamma) of the ninefold transcendental dhamma. It > is that path that is called 'right', because it is suitable. The > right entering: entering upon the right path. Anudhamma-behaving: > one carries out and behaves in the prior dhamma (anudhamma) which > is reckoned as the path of the prior stage." > > More details and notes follow in the text. #113190 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pain nilovg Dear Alex, Op 23-jan-2011, om 8:53 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Alex: Unfortunately I very often react to pain in an unwholesome > way (ex: irritation, lack of sense restraint), and that is not good. ------- N: These akusala reactions are so natural. Therefore, also these can be known as conditioned naamas. If one goes against such reactions there may be even more aversion and negative thoughts. Perhaps one becomes more strained when telling oneself: no good, no good. Whereas, when they are seen as just dhammas, they are dealt with in a more impersonal way. Nina. #113191 From: nichicon cp Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:25 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta Sevens 8 nichiconn ?Dear Friends, CSCD 331, cont. < See also 6s #22 ***rd: 7.8Cf. below, p. 263, viii (mo: in the next sutta, the Dasuttara Suttanta: "Nine to be brought to pass:--the nine perceptions, to wit, perception of ugliness, of death, revulsion from nutriment (physical, sensory, mental, disaffection with everything worldly, impermanence, suffering in impermanence, no-soul in that which suffers, elimination, passionlessness.") to be continued, connie #113192 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:08 am Subject: Re: pain truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Nina, all, >S: Even at such times of pain and health problems or >semi->consciousness, there can be awareness and understanding, Alex. You are right. I do a lot of contemplation and investigation, since standard samatha-like practice doesn't go well with constant illness (either too much discomfort makes me restless or I get drowsy and loose the sort of sharp awareness needed). >We read about many followers who developed insight when bitten by a >snake, on their death-beds, wracked with pain and so on. At any >moment of understanding of a reality, there is tranquility. We don't >need to go looking for another tranquility. > > Do you take some exercise, some walking for example, in the fresh >air? Even the bhikkhus needed their walking exercise to keep their >bodies strong. I do exercise and take a lot of different things. But it doesn't work. Hopefully health wise anicca will prevail for the better... Nina, you are right in #113190. Thank you very much for your kind wishes, With metta, Alex #113193 From: Vince Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna cerovzt@... Dear Sarah you wrote: > S: Panna has to clearly understand the characteristics of particular dhammas > as appearing. For example, sound is clearly understood as sound, hearing as > hearing and so on. "Knowledge of the difference between nama and rupa" means > clearly understanding the particular dhammas when they appear, clearly > understanding that, sound, for example, doesn't expderience anything at all, > but that hearing does. Furthermore, each sound, each moment of hearing is > different and they are also different from any other dhammas. this is something that still I cannot agree at all. This is repeated topic here. However, one can find how different people explain the sotapanna adding his own views. Just a search on internet and one can find many of them: "A sotapanna is one who has attained sotapatti magga and sotapatti-phala. He (or she) can enjoy the peace of Nibbana whenever he wishes by developing the ecstatic absorption corresponding to sotapatti-phala samapatti." - M.Tin Mon " real sotapanna would not kill even a flea or a bug, not to say a human being. This fact must be remembered once and for all." - M .Sayadaw and you says about sotapanna: "Panna has to clearly understand the characteristics of particular dhammas as appearing. [...] "Knowledge of the difference between nama and rupa" means clearly understanding the particular dhammas when they appear" The fact is that inside Suttas, we don't find the sotapanna defined in these terms. A Sotapanna never appears as somebody able to enjoy Nibbana when he wish neither able to distinguish nama and rupa at any time. On the contrary, a sotapanna appears as somebody who reach nibbana but later he can wait even 6 more lives to actualize his progress. Meanwhile the sotapanna obviously can kill bugs, and he or she would not be able to enjoy nibbana neither to distinguish the Dhamma characteristics. Note that nobody is born knowing the difference between nama and rupa neither enjoying nibbana at his will. Even the Buddha himself didn't know all these things before become a Buddha. Siddharta didn't know about nama and rupa, neither we can say that he did not kill even a bug before become a Buddha. However, we know he was a sotapanna in former lifes. In the same way, after the truth is unveiled, it doesn't mean the sotapanna is able to sustain these things in an automatic way, because he is not an arhant or a Buddha. What scriptures shows about the sotappana is this: a sotapanna is somebody who has eradicated the three fetters, akkaya-ditthi, vicikiccha and silabbataparamasa. These later explanations sounds much more as the particular accommodations into different practices and explanations in the Buddhist world. In this way, it seems there are Jhana practitioners who cannot understand a sotapanna if the person is not able to enter in such or such jhana. A similar thing seems to happens with Abhidhamma regarding the understanding of nama and rupa. However, these explanation are limited inside a linear and one-live schema, and therefore they are not in a good accordance with Dhamma teaching. These are not lies but seem to be much more an effort to support the own practice style and focus. A sotapanna can be awakened to nibbana but this progress cannot be updated until long time. So the person can be flooded again into the -self delusion in different degrees, be in very short time after the event or at the moment of death. Of course those eradicated fetters would be present until death, although these can be not applied to acquire more progress until the future: be future days, weeks, months, years or lives. In that lapse of time, the person would not be able to manifest more progress or understanding in a clear way. And all this doesn't mean that he or she is not a sotapanna. How somebody can says if himself or other person is a sotapanna?. It sounds to me quite an absurdity. We only can know if we have ignorance, and about the rest we don't have idea. To find histories of sotapanna, agami or sadakagami showing no understanding of nama and rupa in front some dhamma, just one can look any of the hundred dialogues of Buddha with his bhikkhus to clarify their doubts. How can we explain these questions under the requeriment fro sotapanna of the understanding of nama and rupa at any time? How do you (or other people) see this point?. best, Vince, #113196 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:43 pm Subject: What is Suffering? bhikkhu5 Friends: What is Suffering? At Savatthi. Sitting to one side, the Venerable Radha said to the Blessed One: Venerable sir, it is said, 'suffering, suffering', What now, venerable sir, is suffering? Radha, all form is suffering, all feeling is suffering, all perception is suffering, all intentional mental formation is suffering, and consciousness itself is suffering. Understanding this, Bhikkhu, a well instructed Noble Disciple experiences disgust towards any form, disgust towards any feeling, disgust towards any perception, disgust towards any mental construction, & disgust towards consciousness itself! Experiencing disgust, he becomes disillusioned! Through this disillusion his mind is released. When mind is released, one instantly knows: This mind is liberated, and one understands: Extinguished is rebirth, this Noble Life is all completed, done is what should be done, there is no state of being beyond this... Comments: These 5 clusters of clinging are what denotes both the internal 'individual' and the 'external' real world. However as they continually change, no same internal 'self'= identity or external 'substance'= reality can ever be found! Since always changing they are always lost and therefore are they always ultimately speaking suffering! An inner mental prison of craving for something inevitably, unambiguously & spontaneously vanishing! A fever of folly obsession <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya 22:55 III 185 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #113197 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:40 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta Sevens, 8 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, The Sevens, sutta 8: DN. 33.2.3(8) 'Seven perceptions: perception of impermanence, of not- self, of foulness (asubhasa~n~naa), of danger, of abandonment, of dispassion, of cessation. (Satta sa~n~naa - aniccasa~n~naa, anattasa~n~naa, asubhasa~n~naa, aadiinavasa~n~naa, pahaanasa~n~naa, viraagasa~n~naa, nirodhasa~n~naa.) --------- N: The co. states that the perception of asubha is sa~n~naa arising with insight that contemplates foulness (asubhaanupassanaa~naa.na). The same is said with regard to contemplation of danger (aadiinavasa~n~naa). The rest is as was said above. We have to return to similar suttas: DN 33.2.1(26) 'Five perceptions and DN 33.2.2(22) 'Six perceptions conducive to penetration. All these suttas refer to the development of insight. It has been repeated by the commentary that there is sa~n~naa accompanying insight that contemplates impermanence etc. ------- As to the contemplation of danger, the Tiika states that this proceeds by the contemplation of danger because of the impermanence, dukkha and the fact of being subject to change of conditioned dhammas that is manifest. --------- Conclusion: Also the foulness of food can be included in the contemplation of foulness, asubha. We cling to food but we may realize that it is not beautiful when it has entered the mouth, goes to the stomach and goes out of the body. This contemplation may help us to see the danger of clinging, and even such a contemplation can be realized as a conditioned dhamma. We would not know about the foulness of the body if we had not listened to the Dhamma and studied it. We learn that our life consists of conditioned naamas and ruupas that appear one at a time. First the difference between naama and ruupa has to be clearly realized and then insight can develop further. It develops stage by stage and eventually it leads to abandoning, to dispassion from conditioned dhammas and it turns towards cessation, nibbaana. At this moment we may be infatuated with beautiful objects. Immediately after seeing colour there is an idea of shape and form to which we cling. We are misled by the outward appearance of things, we see them as a whole. We can learn to investigate and be aware of one reality at a time as it appears through one of the six doors. Realities arise because of conditions and fall away immediately. What seemed very attractive at first may be gradually understood as impermanent dhammas. When there is more understanding there will eventually be less clinging. --------- Pali of commentary: Sa~n~naasu asubhaanupassanaa~naa.ne sa~n~naa asubhasa~n~naa. aadiinavaanupassanaa~naa.ne sa~n~naa aadiinavasa~n~naa naama. Sesaa he.t.thaa vuttaa eva. -------- Nina. #113198 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna nilovg Dear Vince, Op 24-jan-2011, om 2:02 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > How can we explain these questions under the requeriment fro > sotapanna of the > understanding of nama and rupa at any time? > > How do you (or other people) see this point?. ------- N: You find that in the suttas the Buddha explains that dhammas are impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. What are these dhammas? They are the phenomena of our life. Which ones? Mental phenomena or naama and physical phenomane or ruupa. Are there any other realities apart from naama and ruupa? The Sotaapanna has developed understanding of naama and ruupa and realises these as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. He has not eradicated all defilements, he still has moments of lobha, dosa and moha. But he has no wrong view about them. He has to develop understanding until all defilements have been eradicated at the moment of reaching arahatship. This reminds us that we have a long, long way to go. It is best to begin now and have more understanding of naama and ruupa by listening and considering what they are. There are naama and ruupa at this moment: seeing colour, hearing, sound, thinking, attachment. Should we not learn more about them? ------- Nina. #113199 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pain nilovg Dear Alex, Op 23-jan-2011, om 20:08 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I do exercise and take a lot of different things. But it doesn't work. > Hopefully health wise anicca will prevail for the better... ------ N: When I saw all your posts and good questions, I did not know that you had pain to such extent. Anyway, you are very brave. The Dhamma certainly helps you. Perhaps you tried different doctors. Sometimes natural medicines or herbs may help. I really sympathize with you, Nina.