#113800 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] paññā vs ñāṇa is there a difference? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, I understand pa~n~naa and ~naa.na to be synonyms, used in different contexts. For example, for stages of insight, ~naa.na is used. It is pa~n~naa, however. It was difficult to read your message because the fonts for the diacriticals came out as squiggles. Metta Sarah ====== --- On Wed, 2/3/11, A T wrote: >Does anyone know if there is a difference between paññā and ñāṇa? If so, what exactly is the difference? Or are they synonyms? For example In Ptsm there is chapter called: "Sotāvadhāne paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ." "Understanding of applying the ear is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt)" - Bhikkhu Nanamoli translation. Pali program that I have, has this translation: paññā=f. wisdom; knowledge; insight. ñāṇa= nt. wisdom; insight. #113801 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 7:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, Without getting into how your thread with Ken H developed and so on, I think you made a good summary here: --- On Mon, 28/2/11, Robert E wrote: >Likewise the realization of anatta is an understanding that the normal human assumption of a self is actually not there; it's the awakening to the nature of an illusion, not to the reality of something positive that *is* there. If I see a dhamma with panna and have insight into its nature as anatta, I am seeing that where I associated a dhamma with self-nature and the character of a self, I now see that it has nothing of the kind. It is free of self or anything pertaining to a self. I see its true character as anatta, but there is no way in which the dhamma behaves or displays itself that shows an "anatta" because "anatta" is not a "something,"... .... S: I tend to agree with you here. When there is the touching of hardness or the seeing of visbile object, there is just that dhamma experienced (and another dhamma experiencing) - no thing, no atta involved - just the dhamma appearing. Metta Sarah ====== #113802 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 10:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inner Peace robmoult Hi Sarah and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > I asked my mother her opinion on this. She thought "better not" - she thinks we all think too deeply instead of just accepting the natural way of things. I think her point was that people without an interest in the Dhamma prefer to grieve in their own way and will ask (like the widow who asked Rob M) if they wish to hear our comments or read our writings. She thought it might cause extra confusion and agitation for them, especially when they don't understand the content. I personally think we sense if people would like to hear us speak/write a little and you know your sister and sister in law best. > Your mother is wise. I wrote "Inner Peace" and offered it unsolicited to my three friends as I hoped that it would help them. Two of the three people rejected it saying, "not interested". Metta, Rob M :-) #113803 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 10:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sukin's post on pariyatti nilovg Dear Phil, Op 2-mrt-2011, om 3:57 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I know you always says "Abhidhamma is not in the book", but I tend > to feel that if Abhidhamma doesn't stay in the book until > conditions are ripe for the realities to be understood more > directly, it is likely to be lobha that takes it out! Anyways, if > you (or Sarah, or Sukin) remember the post I am referring to and > have it on hand, I would appreciate it rereading it, thanks. ------ N: I remember, I quoted it several times. I cannot find it now, but I know Rob K keeps Sukin's letters on his forum. I looked, but could not find it. It is best to ask him. They are very good. He explained that patiyatti always concerns the present moment and that the citta bends towards the present object when that is understood. Perhaps also in Useful Posts. Nina. #113804 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 8:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question: What are the Direct Causes of Kamma?/Nina upasaka_howard Hi, Vince (and Nina) - In a message dated 3/1/2011 8:12:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cerovzt@... writes: I read in the Vism: "The ordinary term "motion" (gatisamanna) refers to successive arisings in adjacent locations (desantaruppatti) " ================================== For what physicists and ordinary people mean by motion, this is an excellent definition. It is exactly what mathematicians mean by it, namely "change in physical position". Perhaps the air/motion dhamma, vayo, is the bodily sensation (rupa) that arises when experiencing bodily change of position. That sensation and bodily change-in-position are certainly related but just as certainly not the same phenomenon, the former being known through the body door and the latter through the mind door. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113805 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 1:40 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (113603) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > Then what is the middle way, and what are the extremes as explained by the Buddha? > =============== J: Well I asked you first, and since you're the one making the claim about the 'gradual middle way described in so many suttas' I think you should go first. But since you're not going to, I will ;-)) 2 extremes In the texts, the 2 extremes are explained in different ways. Two examples I can think of are: - asceticism and sensual indulgence, - striving and standing still. These both mean, as I see it, something like undertaking a 'practice' and doing nothing. Middle Way The middle way is the 'Noble Eightfold Path', a path of 8 factors (Pali: anga). The 8 factors are the 8 cetasikas that arise together at each of the 4 stages of the path. In its mundane form, i.e., at moments of awareness/insight (the 'mundane path'), 5 or 6 of the 8 factors arise together. So the path is in fact just a moment or moments of a particular kind of consciousness. Its (momentary) arising is conditioned by having heard the teachings, having reflected on (pondered over) what has been heard and being able to relate that to the present moment. > =============== > > I have heard even the plain words of the Visudhimagga twisted into a pretzel to mean something other than what they say. If Buddhaghosa says "seek out a teacher," it is interpreted to mean "don't seek a teacher but discern arising dhammas." > > > =============== > > > > J: No, nobody has interpreted Buddhaghosa as saying that ;-)) > > It seemed that way when we discussed this passage before. I can't remember the exact conversation though. > =============== J: (I don't think anyone here has ever interpreted the Vism as meaning "Don't seek a teacher".) > =============== > > The Vism does not purport to describe/specify the development of samatha at more beginning levels. > > How do you reach that conclusion? > =============== J: I've just been doing a search for the pdf version of the Vism which I know exists (I don't have my hard copy with me here in HK). But I can't find it or at least not on a site that I would trust to download from. So I'm afraid I won't be able to give chapter and verse for the time being. However, my reading of Part II 'Samadhi' is that it applies to persons who have reached a stage of development where they see the value of, and are capable of living, a lifestyle of the kind described in the beginning section of the Part. That clearly would exclude any of us (or anyone that I know personally, for that matter). > =============== > My memory is that it is given as a technique, which is the only way that counting breaths makes sense. It is a way of training awareness to stay fixed to the breath, as opposed to drifting off into thought. It's an obvious and classic technique for that purpose and has no other purpose than to train mindfulness - for someone who is basically a beginner and doesn't have greatly developed concentration. > =============== J: It may be true that counting can help concentration, but where is the kusala in that? Neither concentration nor counting is inherently kusala. 'Samatha', as in the name if the Part of the Vism we are discussing, means 'tranquility', and this is a reference to the passadhi cetasika that accompanies each moment of kusala. For as long as the citta is not kusala, there will be no samatha. Neither the fact of concentration nor the fact that breath is the object (nor the combination of the 2) can make consciousness kusala. > =============== > Here's the relevant passage from the Vis: > > "Now the beginner who is of good birth should attend to the subject first by means of counting. ... And the herd of cows, which have been experiencing the misery of confined space during the three watches of the night, rush out rubbing up against one another and quickly forming groups. And he quickly counts three, four, five . . ♦" > > Clearly a technique that is being given to develop concentration, with a beginning and advanced stage once one progresses and gets used to the early "slow" technique. > =============== J: Sorry, but I'll have to leave the rest of my reply on this point until I get hold of a copy of the text. Jon #113806 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 2:23 pm Subject: Mindfulness of dhammas. nilovg Dear Rob M, You said that you would like to know more about the fourth application of mindfulness, mindfulness of dhammas. This includes naama and ruupa as objects of mindfulness under various aspects. The five khandhas are nothing else but the three paramattha dhammas of citta, cetasika and ruupa. Or the aayatanas: naama and ruupa but now under the aspect of dhammas that are associating so that there are conditions for different experiences. We are so forgetful of the dhamma appearing at this moment and therefore the Buddha taught many different aspects of considering them. They are just naama and ruupa, just dhammas, and this is the sober truth. It has to be hammered in again and again. Then there are the hindrances, akusala cetasikas and the factors of enlightenment, sobhana cetasikas leading to enlightenment. We find it very important not to have akusala cittas and want to have kusala cittas, but they are just dhammas arising because of conditions. We are inclined to take akusala as well as kusala for self, but they can be objects of awareness so that they are seen as they really are. The four truths: only in thoroughly known all phenomena as conditioned naama and ruupa can the four noble truths be realised. The truths pertain to naama and ruupa appearing at this moment. Seeing now is dukkha, and if there had not been clinging to dhammas there would be no birth and we would not see now. The ceasing of dukkha, the goal of the Buddha's teaching on satipa.t.thaana, and the way thereto, the eightfold Path, it is very suitable that this is taught at the end of the four Applications of Mindfulness. Through mindfulness and direct understanding of whatever dhamma appears at this moment the eightfold Path is being developed. Nina. #113807 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 2:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >.... >S: It is clear to you, it is not clear to others of us. > >Ken, let's just accept that we read the texts and commentaries with a different >understanding these days. I can quote and quote, but there's no point in it as >you read those quotes according to your interpretation, the one you believe is >correct. > >Later you go on to ask where it says in the Abhidhamma "that panna can only >arise with nama and rupa as an object". Again and again we all make clear to you > >that no one has said this. I asked you to find a single quote from over 113K >messages to suggest this and you didn't find a single one:-))The same applies to > >some other comments mis-paraphrasing what Jon, Ken H or I have said. I really >wonder if you read our comments carefully or just react:-)) > >You also ask "what make your reading and meditation so different. Isn't that all > >are attempts by dhamma?" Simply, there are only ever dhammas arising and falling > >away now. It's useless to think in terms of conventional activities with regard >to the path. If there is right understanding of dhammas now, that is the path. >If there is wrong understanding or an attempt to change what has been >conditioned already, that is the wrong path. It doesn't matter when such right >or wrong understanding occur - it's the citta now that counts, not the KO: No, we have to be clear on what we are saying. Also the classification of mundane and supradmundane is not according to nama and rupa, or whether nama rise with panna or not. It is classified whether the cankers are all eradicated or not. I am not saying what is not say in the comy. But you, Jon and Ken H have been saying and interpretation dhammas not written in the text. the text are clear, it is in line with the suttas. I see no conflict. You have yet show me the text because i know the interpretation by you, Jon and Ken H are wrong. You are all basing your dhamma on vipassana and not before vipassana. I find it amazing when we people talk about commentaries and holding true to it yet we have statements made here that are not supported by the text. But I can show you the text where concepts are used in the development of the path. I can show you that satipatthana is not all about nama and rupa. I can show you what is the diference between mundane and supramundane panna are using Abhidhamma, comy and sutta and not based on my personal interpretation. there is nothing wroong about mediation, just like there is nothing wrong in reading a book, the difference are the citta that arise or as you said it is citta that counts. Then what is the difference between these two then. Learning nama and rupa is of great benefit. It is not use to differentiate between dhamma and concept. It is use to develop panna to penetrate the meaning of anatta and not used to differentiate that panna cannot arise with concepts. Ken O #113808 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 2:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >--- On Fri, 25/2/11, Ken O wrote: >> KO: without chanda, one cannot be a Buddha. It is one of the 8 requisties to >>be a Buddha :-). >> >... >S: Without a lot of kusala chanda accompanying right understanding of the path. >Most of the chanda arising in the day (including most of the chanda we take for >being kusala chanda) is in fact akusala chanda. > >What about now? Kusala or akusala chanda (interest)? Only right understanding >can know. KO: definitely, are you saying during one vow to be a Buddha, right understanding does not arise. Are you saying those meditate in the ancients days do not have right understanding? Ken O #113809 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 4:35 pm Subject: Re: Fwd: [dsg] Re: : insight. links. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah and Rob E -- This is from my previous email ( Vipassana in my personal views that I understand from the text, is after one attain jhanas, one use jhanas as basis of insight. Vipassana mediation starts at feelings onwards.) this view of mine is not correct. It is good to correct one views if they are wrong. Dhamma is about learning, which I always believe. Vipassana if we definte it strictly as nama and rupa, can arise after the fourfold jhanas of breathing as a meditation subject. This breathing is concept and not nama and rupa, I breath in long .... You can read the commentary which the link show. The mind lay hold on the materality and mentality as said in the para from the commentary of the satipathana. This commentary wordings are supported by Visud as well. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html#feeling commentary to satipatthana <> Similiar in Visud VIII, 224 - 222.... << However, when a bikkhu has achieved the fourfold and fivefold jhana and wants to reach purity by developing the meditation subject through observing and through turning away, he should make that jhanas familiar by attaining mastery in it in the five ways (ch IV 131) and then embark upon insight by defining mentality - materiality. How? 223 On emerging from the attainment, he sees that in-breaths and out-breaths have the physical body and the mind as their origin; and that just at, when a blacksmith's bellows are being blown, the wind moves owing to the bag and to the man's appropriate effort, so too in breaths and out breaths are due to the body and the mind Next he defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the body as "materiality", and the consciousneess and the states associated with the consciousness as "the immaterial (mind)". This is in brief (cf MA.1.249); but the details will be explained later in the defining of mentality-materiality (ch XVII, 3f)>> these are the writings from different translators which show that meditation subject of breathing is a concept and not nama and rupa as claim by Sarah, Jon and Ken H. If Sarah, Jon and Keh H wish to show, it is nama and rupa only and no concepts are involved, show the text as well. I have been saying this, but I have yet seen a quote from any of you. Feelings can lead to insight but comtemplation of feelings starts at first jhana. Pg24, Commentary to Anapasati, para 6. <> Ken O > >From: sarah abbott >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Sunday, 27 February 2011 15:24:15 >Subject: Re: Fwd: [dsg] Re: : insight. links. > > >Dear Ken O, > >--- On Sun, 27/2/11, Ken O wrote: > >>Vipassana in my personal views that I understand from the text, is after one >>attain jhanas, one use jhanas as basis of insight. Vipassana mediation starts >>at feelings onwards. >> >... >S: Which text is this? > >Metta > >Sarah >====== > > #113810 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samsara ashkenn2k Dear Martin Samasara is just to describ the six realms if I am not wrong. The difference between Buddhism and Hinduims is Buddhism teach anatta (not self). Only Buddha can teach 4NT and D.O which lead to the understanding of not-self and to Nibbana Ken O > >From: Martin >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wednesday, 2 March 2011 11:28:21 >Subject: [dsg] Re: Samsara > > >Thank you, Nina. > >It is only in the meaning of dukkha for samsara (not the term)in the teaching of > >Dependent Origination. This makes the difference between Buddhism and Hinduism. > >Regards, > >Martin > #113811 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 5:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] You too should exert yourself... truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Nina, all, > S: No conditioned dhamma lasts more than an instant. I can agree with that, at least as far as cittas/cetasikas and atomic particles are concerned. > A:>There is very big difference between anicca, and khanika. > Buddha taught Anicca. > ... > S: Please describe what you understand anicca and khanika to mean >and what the difference is as you understand the terms. Khanika means momentary change. Like billions of cittas happening per second. Anicca = inconstancy. Ex: The body is going to age, get sick and die. It may not be old or dead now, it may not look like it has major alterations, but it will become old and it will die. Thing may not change now, but it will. IMHO, teaching of anicca is far more dispassion producing than teaching on khanika. We don't suffer due to the fact that things are always changing at the rate of billions per second. We suffer when the body (or mind) alters in the undesirable way despite our best wishes to the contrary. With metta, Alex #113812 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 5:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ashkenn2k Dear Rob E > >Seriously, I am not trying to find comments or interpretations that support my >own view. I looked for "anatta" and found those comments which I thought were >very insightful into the nature of anatta. > > >My view of anatta as a positive characteristic is very simple: If someone can >tell me how anatta appears as a positive characteristic and define or describe >it in some way, then I will be happy to engage with it. So far, no one seems to >be able to describe this reality. I have asked many times. *Every* description >of anatta I read by anyone including excerpts from the commentaries say that >anatta is the lack of self or lack of connection to a self. It is a negation of >self. And it makes perfect sense. So I am going by what is said in sutta and >commentary, not my own view. I think that if someone says anatta is a "positive >characteristic of all dhammas" it is necessary to say how that appears and how >it is seen as a characteristic. I am waiting now for several years for anyone to > >describe this to me. > >If you have any kind of quote from commentary that explains this, I will be >happy to read it; in fact I would be excited to see it. > KO: the best description i could find is Dispeller of Delusion para 233 <<233. But it is no-self(anatta) in the sense of powerlessness. Or because there is no exercise of power in these three instances, [namely] "this being arisen, let it not reach presence; having reached presence, let it not grow old, having grown old, let it not break up"; and it is void of this quality of having power exercised over it (vasavattana). Therefore it is no-self for these four reasons, [namely] because it is void, because it has no owner, because of not behaving as desire [akamakariya] because of exclusion of self.>> <<244 But here the following difference should be understoon; impermanence and the characteristic of impermenance, pain and the characteristics of pain, no self and characteristic of no self. 225 Herein, the five aggregates are immpermanent. Why? Because they rise and fall and change, or because of their absence after having been. Rise and fall and change are the characteristic of impermanence or mode of alteration called absence after having been. 226 But those same five aggregates are painful because of the words "what is impermanent is painful" (S iv 1) Why? Because of continual oppression This mode of being continually oppressed is the characteristic of pain 247 But those same five aggregates are no-self because of the words "what is painful is no-self" (S iv 1) Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them as the characteristic of no-self 248 That is why impermanent, the painful and no-self are one thing and the characteristics of the impermanance, the painful and the no-self are another. For that which consists of five aggregates, the twelve bases, the eighteen elements is all impermanent, painful and no-self; the modes of alteration of the kind aforesaid are the characterisitcs of impermanence, pain and no self.>> Hope this helps Ken O #113813 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 8:49 pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of dhammas. robmoult Hi Nina, Thank you for this, but I do not recall asking about this topic. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob M, > > You said that you would like to know more about the fourth > application of mindfulness, mindfulness of dhammas. #113814 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 10:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddha taught Silabbata - AN 3.78 epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Enjoying your witty exchange with Ken H - laughed out loud when I got to the drinking of the empty coffee cup :-) Giving him a run for his own good humour and sign-off quips:-)) Thanks, Sarah; I think we're having a good time, Ken H. and I - at least I am :-) - we'll have to see if he ever talks to me again. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113815 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 10:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddha taught Silabbata - AN 3.78 epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Enjoying your witty exchange with Ken H - laughed out loud when I got to the drinking of the empty coffee cup :-) Giving him a run for his own good humour and sign-off quips:-)) Thanks, Sarah; I think we're having a good time, Ken H. and I - at least I am :-) - we'll have to see if he ever talks to me again. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113816 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 10:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > Without getting into how your thread with Ken H developed and so on, I think you made a good summary here: > > --- On Mon, 28/2/11, Robert E wrote: > >Likewise the realization of anatta is an understanding that the normal human assumption of a self is actually not there; it's the awakening to the nature of an illusion, not to the reality of something positive that *is* there. If I see a dhamma with panna and have insight into its nature as anatta, I am seeing that where I associated a dhamma with self-nature and the character of a self, I now see that it has nothing of the kind. It is free of self or anything pertaining to a self. I see its true character as anatta, but there is no way in which the dhamma behaves or displays itself that shows an "anatta" because "anatta" is not a "something,"... > .... > S: I tend to agree with you here. When there is the touching of hardness or the seeing of visbile object, there is just that dhamma experienced (and another dhamma experiencing) - no thing, no atta involved - just the dhamma appearing. Thanks for highlighting this, Sarah. It's sort of a thorny subject and I find it helpful to hear what you think about it. I think the above - that there is just the "dhamma experienced" - helps clarify the situation. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #113817 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 10:35 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (113603) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > Then what is the middle way, and what are the extremes as explained by the Buddha? > > =============== > > J: Well I asked you first, and since you're the one making the claim about the 'gradual middle way described in so many suttas' I think you should go first. I've actually said some things about what I considered the middle way in previous posts with you, with which you of course disagreed, but I don't blame you for not recalling it - we have talked about a lot of things. > But since you're not going to, I will ;-)) Well that is extremely forthcoming of you, and the merit of such is obvious! :-) > 2 extremes > In the texts, the 2 extremes are explained in different ways. Two examples I can think of are: > - asceticism and sensual indulgence, > - striving and standing still. That latter is the one I've talked about before. I've also mentioned the middle way between eternalism and annihilationism, which Buddha spoke about. But I think you didn't consider that the "middle way" but something else. > These both mean, as I see it, something like undertaking a 'practice' and doing nothing. When I talked about striving and standing still, I said something similar - something like "neither putting forth effort nor refraining from skillful action." I think that if you are not standing still you are doing something, so I actually think a kind of practice is included. But putting forth personal effort, trying to get a certain result, etc., would be "striving." I guess we can agree that self-based effort would be "striving" and that taking a view that one must do nothing, refrain from doing, practice or any effort or undertaking would be "standing still." I'm sure you disagree that there is any "practice" that is not self-based, but in that case I would ask you what you would define as standing still? If Buddha is saying, as you say above, that we should not "do nothing," then what kind of "doing something" is correct in your view? > Middle Way > The middle way is the 'Noble Eightfold Path', a path of 8 factors (Pali: anga). > The 8 factors are the 8 cetasikas that arise together at each of the 4 stages of the path. > In its mundane form, i.e., at moments of awareness/insight (the 'mundane path'), 5 or 6 of the 8 factors arise together. > So the path is in fact just a moment or moments of a particular kind of consciousness. When did Buddha say any of that? I'm sure it says that in commentary by way of interpretation of the path, but did Buddha make a statement to that effect? Can you identify it for me? > Its (momentary) arising is conditioned by having heard the teachings, having reflected on (pondered over) what has been heard and being able to relate that to the present moment. I don't see what all of that has to do with the "middle way." I mean you can say the 8fold noble path is the middle way, but I don't see the explanation of how the 8fold noble path comes to be seen as the middle way. There has to be a reason why it is "middle" rather than an extreme. How does the 8fold path avoid being an "extreme" path on either side in your view? What does it avoid by being a path of the 8 factors you mention? What is "middle" about them? > > =============== > > > I have heard even the plain words of the Visudhimagga twisted into a pretzel to mean something other than what they say. If Buddhaghosa says "seek out a teacher," it is interpreted to mean "don't seek a teacher but discern arising dhammas." > > > > =============== > > > > > > J: No, nobody has interpreted Buddhaghosa as saying that ;-)) > > > > It seemed that way when we discussed this passage before. I can't remember the exact conversation though. > > =============== > > J: (I don't think anyone here has ever interpreted the Vism as meaning "Don't seek a teacher".) > > > =============== > > > The Vism does not purport to describe/specify the development of samatha at more beginning levels. > > > > How do you reach that conclusion? > > =============== > > J: I've just been doing a search for the pdf version of the Vism which I know exists (I don't have my hard copy with me here in HK). But I can't find it or at least not on a site that I would trust to download from. So I'm afraid I won't be able to give chapter and verse for the time being. > > However, my reading of Part II 'Samadhi' is that it applies to persons who have reached a stage of development where they see the value of, and are capable of living, a lifestyle of the kind described in the beginning section of the Part. That clearly would exclude any of us (or anyone that I know personally, for that matter). Well I'm not sure whether you know that it excludes me! Just kidding. > > =============== > > My memory is that it is given as a technique, which is the only way that counting breaths makes sense. It is a way of training awareness to stay fixed to the breath, as opposed to drifting off into thought. It's an obvious and classic technique for that purpose and has no other purpose than to train mindfulness - for someone who is basically a beginner and doesn't have greatly developed concentration. > > =============== > > J: It may be true that counting can help concentration, but where is the kusala in that? Neither concentration nor counting is inherently kusala. Why is it in the Vis? Why is it said to lead to greater concentration and allow for the later stages of anapansati? Presumably when Buddhaghosa says "the practitioner should do X" he is reporting something that was originally given by the Buddha. Obviously, the kusala comes in as the skill of samatha and focus on the nature of the breath develops to the point where both samatha and mindfulness are developed and lead to suppression of defilements, insight, etc. So the pathway of anapanasati certainly is kusala, and counting breath is a *technique* that enables that development. It seems pretty simple to me. > 'Samatha', as in the name if the Part of the Vism we are discussing, means 'tranquility', and this is a reference to the passadhi cetasika that accompanies each moment of kusala. Cultivation of samatha is something a bit different from developing kusala in general. You are saying samatha arises with kusala, but the techniques for cultivating samatha that are described are not about developing samatha by developing kusala, but are about developing samatha by cultivating samatha, which is then kusala. You may say that samatha arises with kusala, and that is true, but kusala also arises if and when samatha is present, and samatha itself is a state that can be developed in its own right, which of course is the point of that aspect of anapanasati practice. > For as long as the citta is not kusala, there will be no samatha. That my be so, but that is not to say that the development of samatha in its own right is *akusala.* If samatha is indeed developed then it goes without saying that it *is* kusala, so I don't see the problem there. We can arrange our cart and horse any way we may like, but the two elements will still arise together. Kusala with samatha or samatha with kusala; chicken and egg I would say. > Neither the fact of concentration nor the fact that breath is the object (nor the combination of the 2) can make consciousness kusala. > > > =============== > > Here's the relevant passage from the Vis: > > > > "Now the beginner who is of good birth should attend to the subject first by means of counting. ... > And the herd of cows, which have been experiencing the misery of confined space during the three watches of the night, rush out rubbing up against one another and quickly forming groups. And he quickly counts three, four, five . . ♦" > > > > Clearly a technique that is being given to develop concentration, with a beginning and advanced stage once one progresses and gets used to the early "slow" technique. > > =============== > > J: Sorry, but I'll have to leave the rest of my reply on this point until I get hold of a copy of the text. Well I did give you an extensive quote to look at, but be that as it may, I will wait until you are able to look over the entire Vis. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #113818 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 10:41 pm Subject: counting cows (was: Re: Khandhas and samsara) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > "Now the beginner who is of good birth should attend to the subject first by means of counting. ... > And the herd of cows, which have been experiencing the misery of confined space during the three watches of the night, rush out rubbing up against one another and quickly forming groups. And he quickly counts three, four, five . . What's up with the cows, Jon? That passage wasn't in the breath-counting passage that I quoted to you at length. Is that really in the Vis? Counting cows? I'm familiar with counting sheep, but I am not too familiar with the Buddhist practice of counting cows. Also, is this meant to be suggestive that maybe the cows are not of good character? I mean, "rubbing up against each other" and all. That is not nice. You'll have to fill me in on the full meaning of this when you get a chance. Fascinating though... Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113819 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 11:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > > > >Seriously, I am not trying to find comments or interpretations that support my > >own view. I looked for "anatta" and found those comments which I thought were > >very insightful into the nature of anatta. > > > > > >My view of anatta as a positive characteristic is very simple: If someone can > >tell me how anatta appears as a positive characteristic and define or describe > >it in some way, then I will be happy to engage with it. So far, no one seems to > > >be able to describe this reality. I have asked many times. *Every* description > >of anatta I read by anyone including excerpts from the commentaries say that > >anatta is the lack of self or lack of connection to a self. It is a negation of > > >self. And it makes perfect sense. So I am going by what is said in sutta and > >commentary, not my own view. I think that if someone says anatta is a "positive > > >characteristic of all dhammas" it is necessary to say how that appears and how > >it is seen as a characteristic. I am waiting now for several years for anyone to > > > >describe this to me. > > > >If you have any kind of quote from commentary that explains this, I will be > >happy to read it; in fact I would be excited to see it. > > > > KO: the best description i could find is Dispeller of Delusion para 233 > > <<233. But it is no-self(anatta) in the sense of powerlessness. Or because > there is no exercise of power in these three instances, [namely] "this being > arisen, let it not reach presence; having reached presence, let it not grow old, > having grown old, let it not break up"; and it is void of this quality of having > power exercised over it (vasavattana). Therefore it is no-self for these four > reasons, [namely] because it is void, because it has no owner, because of not > behaving as desire [akamakariya] because of exclusion of self.>> > > > > <<244 But here the following difference should be understoon; impermanence and > the characteristic of impermenance, pain and the characteristics of pain, no > self and characteristic of no self. > > 225 Herein, the five aggregates are immpermanent. Why? Because they rise and > fall and change, or because of their absence after having been. Rise and fall > and change are the characteristic of impermanence or mode of alteration called > absence after having been. > > 226 But those same five aggregates are painful because of the words "what is > impermanent is painful" (S iv 1) Why? Because of continual oppression This mode > of being continually oppressed is the characteristic of pain > > 247 But those same five aggregates are no-self because of the words "what is > painful is no-self" (S iv 1) Why? Because there is no exercising power over > them. The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them as the > characteristic of no-self > > 248 That is why impermanent, the painful and no-self are one thing and the > characteristics of the impermanance, the painful and the no-self are another. > For that which consists of five aggregates, the twelve bases, the eighteen > elements is all impermanent, painful and no-self; the modes of alteration of the > kind aforesaid are the characterisitcs of impermanence, pain and no self.>> > > > Hope this helps Well, that is fantastic. It suggests something that I can relate to strongly in my sense of anatta and the other of the three marks - that the *characteristics* of anatta, anicca and dukkha are separate experiential elements than the *fact* or existence of the three marks. So it is not saying that anatta itself *is* a positive characteristic. Instead it describes the positive characteristics that make up or demonstrate the reality of anatta. Likewise for anicca and dukkha. It explains why the dhammas are anatta, anicca and dukkha. Well, that is very helpful. I am very interested in this, so I will go back over it more slowly if you don't mind, and go into the descriptions of what characteristics form the anatta, anicca and dukkha nature of dhammas, and talk about it a little more. Thanks for the passage here, which is very helpful. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #113820 From: "philip" Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sukin's post on pariyatti philofillet Thank you Nina, not to worry. I'm sure he will explain pariyatti lucidly when we discuss, and that will be good enough. I also remember something about "bending to the object." One thing I'm curious to discuss is whether lobha and akusala chanda that are trying to have awareness of realities could possibly obstruct actual awareness in a similar way that it is said awareness of physical postures can obstruct awareness of realities, if I recall correctly. I'm not feverishly seeking to find an answer to this and am appreciating reminders about the need to be aware of realities in daily life and am certainly confident that having a good knowledge of theory is a necessary condition. I'm hoping to do more listening than promoting my views during discussion in Thailand, but well, we'll see what happens...it's always possible that I will be able to shut up for awhile! :) Metta, Phil > N: I remember, I quoted it several times. I cannot find it now, but I > know Rob K keeps Sukin's letters on his forum. #113821 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 1:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sukin's post on pariyatti sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Nina), --- On Thu, 3/3/11, philip wrote: >Thank you Nina, not to worry. I'm sure he will explain pariyatti lucidly when we discuss, and that will be good enough. ..... S: See 'Useful Posts' under 'Pariyatti, patipatti, pativedha'. This is the first one by Sukin which may be what you're looking for: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/32790 A bit short of time before I leave.... Metta Sarah ===== #113822 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 2, 2011 10:19 pm Subject: Gracious is an Attitude of Gratitude! bhikkhu5 Friends: Gratitude appreciates all assistance! The Buddha indeed pointed out Gratitude as an important mental quality: These two people are hard to find in the world. Which two? The one who is first to do a kindness, and the one who is grateful and thankful for a kindness done. Anguttara Nikāya 2.118 I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two? Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, & were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate and urinate right there on your shoulders, you would not thereby repay your parents. Even if you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way repay your parents! Why is that? Mothers and fathers do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them for long, and they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in faith; rouses his immoral mother & father, establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his unwise mother & father, settles & establishes them on a new level of understanding: It is in this way that one truly repays one's mother's and father's many longstanding services. Anguttara Nikāya 2.32 Mother & father, compassionate to their family, are called Brahma, first teachers, those worthy of gifts from their children. So the wise should pay them homage, honour them with food & drink, clothing & bedding, and anointing, bathing, washing their feet. Performing these services to their parents, the wise are praised right here and after death rejoice in heaven. Itivuttaka 106 If this is what you think of me: The Blessed One, is sympathetic, is seeking our well-being, teaches us this Dhamma out of sympathy, then you should train yourself in being in harmony, cordial, and without conflict and train in yourselves cultivation of all the 37 best mental qualities: The 4_Foundations_of_Awareness , the 4 right efforts, the 4_Feet_of_Force , the 5 Abilities , 5 powers, the 7 Links to Awakening, & the Noble_8-Fold_Way . Majjhima Nikāya 103 A Tathagata is worshipped, honoured, respected, thanked & shown gratitude by any follower, who keeps practicing the Dhamma in accordance with true Dhamma, who keeps practicing masterfully, who lives in and by the Dhamma! Digha Nikāya 16 We will undertake & practice those qualities that makes one a contemplative, so that all those who helped us by services of robes, alms-food, lodging, and medicines will bring them great fruit and great future reward. Majjhima Nikāya 39 Comments: In Pali, the word for gratitude = kataññu literally means to have a sense of what was done for one in the past even when long ago. Remembering all help! A network of kindness and gratitude is what sustains whatever goodness there is and ever will be in this - otherwise destitute & impoverished - world! Thus: Thank you for reading this! Source (edited extract): The Lessons of Gratitude by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/lessonsofgratitude.html http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Appropriate_Appreciation.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #113823 From: "philip" Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 2:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sukin's post on pariyatti philofillet Hi Sarah Thank you Sarah, I haven't read it yet, but in any case I'll print it out and take it with me. See you in a few days! Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Phil (& Nina), > > --- On Thu, 3/3/11, philip wrote: > >Thank you Nina, not to worry. I'm sure he will explain pariyatti lucidly when we discuss, and that will be good enough. > ..... #113824 From: "philip" Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 2:36 am Subject: A topic for Monday's breakfast with Han philofillet Hello Han (and Sarah and Jon) I'm so looking forward to breakfast together on Monday ith Sarah and Jon. One topic I would like to ask you about is something that has been coming up quite a bit recently on this list and in my own life, and that is how to introduce the Dhamma to people who are not yet believers and don't have any familiarity with it except for some stereotypical images. The reason I ask is that this year I have been writing a weekly letter to my 93 year-old father (typed out, quite long) and in one of them I told him for the first time how important Buddhism is to me. In my family, and in their "world" it is kind of unfashionable and almost taboo to be religious, so telling him was almost like confessing an embarrassing deed. But we know that it is the best gift we can give, especially to our parents, so I would like to continue to write to him more. So on Monday I would like to ask you (and Jon and Sarah, of course) for some thoughts on how to do this... I have quite a few of them now, of course, but won't go into them now. But looking forward to discussing this on Monday, if it's all right with you. I am confident you will give me some good guidance in this because of anyone I know you seem to have a grasp of the gradual teaching, going from conventional, easy-to-understand topics (that might seem common to other religions) to the very depest ones and you are so good about explaining. Metta, Phil #113825 From: "philip" Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 2:42 am Subject: Questions for Nina 2: Turning away from akusala philofillet Hi Nina, Sorry for so many questions, I'm just trying to wrap up a few points I want to think about to "prepare" for my upcoming Dhamma discussion. (I know it's not an exam, but it's such a rare opportunity that I don't want to take it too lightly) Somewhere in Cetasikas I saw you used the words "turning away" with the corresponding Pali term (at least I think there was Pali) but now I can't find it. I thought it must be in the section on the viratis (abstinences) but I can't find it. Would you (or anyone of course) be able to point it out and explain the context? The reason I ask is because I was strong impressed by A.S in Perfections that we must turn away from akusala or it will be too late, as must have happened in life after life, but needless to say I probably have a different and technically incorrect understanding of what "turning away" means. Thanks! I have a translation deadline to meet by Saturnday night, so this will be my last post before my departure, I think, so please accept my thanks in advance. Metta, Phil #113826 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A topic for Monday's breakfast with Han hantun1 Dear Phil, Yes, Phil, we will talk about this. with metta and respect, Han --- On Thu, 3/3/11, philip wrote: From: philip Subject: [dsg] A topic for Monday's breakfast with Han To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, March 3, 2011, 9:36 AM Hello Han (and Sarah and Jon) I'm so looking forward to breakfast together on Monday ith Sarah and Jon. One topic I would like to ask you about is something that has been coming up quite a bit recently on this list and in my own life, and that is how to introduce the Dhamma to people who are not yet believers and don't have any familiarity with it except for some stereotypical images. The reason I ask is that this year I have been writing a weekly letter to my 93 year-old father (typed out, quite long) and in one of them I told him for the first time how important Buddhism is to me. In my family, and in their "world" it is kind of unfashionable and almost taboo to be religious, so telling him was almost like confessing an embarrassing deed. But we know that it is the best gift we can give, especially to our parents, so I would like to continue to write to him more. So on Monday I would like to ask you (and Jon and Sarah, of course) for some thoughts on how to do this... I have quite a few of them now, of course, but won't go into them now. But looking forward to discussing this on Monday, if it's all right with you. I am confident you will give me some good guidance in this because of anyone I know you seem to have a grasp of the gradual teaching, going from conventional, easy-to-understand topics (that might seem common to other religions) to the very depest ones and you are so good about explaining. Metta, Phil #113827 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 5:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing kenhowardau Hi Robert E and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > Without getting into how your thread with Ken H developed and so on, I think you made a good summary here: > > --- On Mon, 28/2/11, Robert E wrote: > >Likewise the realization of anatta is an understanding that the normal human assumption of a self is actually not there; it's the awakening to the nature of an illusion, not to the reality of something positive that *is* there. If I see a dhamma with panna and have insight into its nature as anatta, I am seeing that where I associated a dhamma with self-nature and the character of a self, I now see that it has nothing of the kind. It is free of self or anything pertaining to a self. I see its true character as anatta, but there is no way in which the dhamma behaves or displays itself that shows an "anatta" because "anatta" is not a "something,"... > .... > S: I tend to agree with you here. When there is the touching of hardness or the seeing of visbile object, there is just that dhamma experienced (and another dhamma experiencing) - no thing, no atta involved - just the dhamma appearing. > ----------- KH: OK, I know when I am outgunned! :-) But, just for the record, maybe I should try to sum up the arguments so far. Starting with mine: As I see it, an inherent characteristic exists irrespectively of whether or not it is observed. Therefore, (taking a conventional example) I believe iron possesses its magnetic property irrespectively of whether a magnetic field is currently acting upon it. In the same way, I believe that a dhamma possesses its anatta property irrespectively of whether the idea of atta has ever occurred to anyone. However, I should be prepared to concede defeat on this issue. I do seem to be in a minority of one. :-) And so I am prepared to be coaxed in from the cold. Of course, the best way of persuading me would be to find the answer in the Pali texts. But even without that, I could be persuaded by certain other explanations. Take anicca, for example. I have always thought that a conditioned dhamma fell away *because it possessed the anicca characteristic*. But I suspect I have been wrong about that. Maybe it is conditioned by other dhammas to fall away. It's a similar story with dukkha. I have always assumed conditioned dhammas were ultimately repulsive because they bore the dukkha characteristic. But maybe they are repulsive because they are judged by panna to be repulsive (in view of their impermanence). (?) I genuinely could be persuaded. If I am, however, I might stop referring to anicca dukkha and anatta as *inherent* characteristics. Wouldn't it be better to just call them characteristics? Or, better still, I could call them the three basic *facts* of existence, as does one of my Buddhist books. Ken H #113828 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 1:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of dhammas. nilovg Dear Rob M, Op 2-mrt-2011, om 21:49 heeft robmoult het volgende geschreven: > Thank you for this, but I do not recall asking about this topic. ------ N: I read it somewhere but it could be from someone else, Rob E? There are many posts and sometimes something catches my attention and then I react later on. ----- Nina. #113829 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 1:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions for Nina 2: Turning away from akusala nilovg Dear Phil, Sorry I delayed answering your other question. Howard answered this already. I sometimes have to wait when there are other things to do in the house, or, we are walking. I get more slow in all my activities, as I am becoming older, and thus less time for mails. But I keep on 'trying'. Op 3-mrt-2011, om 3:42 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Somewhere in Cetasikas I saw you used the words "turning away" with > the corresponding Pali term (at least I think there was Pali) but > now I can't find it. I thought it must be in the section on the > viratis (abstinences) but I can't find it. > > Would you (or anyone of course) be able to point it out and explain > the context? The reason I ask is because I was strong impressed by > A.S in Perfections that we must turn away from akusala or it will > be too late, as must have happened in life after life, but needless > to say I probably have a different and technically incorrect > understanding of what "turning away" means. ------ N: It does not matter what word we use, so long as we really understand that whatever activity is done, is done only by citta and cetasikas. Turning away from akusala: it is the activity of virati cetasika, it abstains from akusala. If virati cetasika would not arise, impossible to turn away from akusala. I remember the passage in the perfections, and it is a useful reminder. But we have to remember that there is no person who tries to turn away. Still, her words can make it clear to us that akusala is dangerous and when we accumulate more and more it becomes harder to apply ourselves to kusala. Her words can be a condition to see the danger of akusala. Actually, there can be a change from akusala to kusala, when the mind is 'bent' to it. I requote from the Expositor: We read in the (Expositor p. 100): As to the word 'bent on' , the Pali has: pari.naamita, bend to, change into. There can be a change from akusala to kusala if one understands the right conditions to be cultivated. An abundance of right reflection is also a condition for kusala. We need good friends who give us stimulating talks. We then read that the Tiika refers to the four wheels that are favorable conditions for the arising of kusala citta with right understanding. These four wheels are: living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, right aspiration, and meritorious deeds formerly done. (See AN IV, 4, 1, The Wheel). Further on the Tiika mentions as conditions for the citta to be accompanied by wisdom: past kamma, maturity of the faculties, that is to say: the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom which have to be developed. Another factor is ones age. The age from forty to fifty is the most favorable age to develop wisdom according to the Visuddhimagga. Kusala citta accompanied by wisdom needs many conditions, some stemming from the past and others that are of the present. The Dhammasanga.nii, when dealing with the first type of kusala citta, states: and then it enumerates the many cetasikas that assist the citta. The Expositor (p. 76 etc.) explains numerous meanings of samaya, such as: time or occasion, concurrence of causes, moment. It explains that the should be classed as the one moment in the sense of occasion, they form the occasion for the production of merit. It states: It shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and it points out . It stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous occurrence of many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many cetasikas, each performing their own function. By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual contribution towards the production of a common result. The Expositor explains with regard to samaya as condition: N: When we learn about all the different factors that are necessary conditions for the arising of one moment of kusala citta with paaa we are reminded that kusala citta does not belong to us and that it falls away immediately. Kusala citta is very rare and even more so kusala citta with paaa. We have accumulated a great amount of akusala and thus there are conditions for its arising very often. This is a pungent reminder to develop all kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity. -------- There is also a sutta where it is repeated: he turns away from the eye, from seeing, etc. Here the word turning away means dispassion. It is relinquishment. Through fully developed understanding he does not cling anymore to seeing, hearing, all the sense impressions. ------ Nina. #113830 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 2:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 3-mrt-2011, om 6:44 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > In the same way, I believe that a dhamma possesses its anatta > property irrespectively of whether the idea of atta has ever > occurred to anyone. ------ N: You remind me of a text: quoted from Survey, ch 3: Even if a Buddha had not been born and discovered the truth, dhammas arise and fall away because of their own conditions and their own true nature. We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes, Ch XIV, 134, Appearance, that the Buddha said: Monks, whether there be an appearance or non-appearance of a Tathgata, this causal law of nature, this orderly fixing of dhammas prevails, namely, all phenomena are impermanent. About this a Tathgata is fully enlightened, he fully understands it. So enlightened and understanding he declares, teaches and makes it plain. He shows it, he opens it up, explains and makes it clear: this fact that all phenomena are impermament. The same is said about the truth that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha and that all dhammas are non-self. -------- Nina. #113831 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 2:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 1-mrt-2011, om 1:56 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Those are good reminders, and it's important to remember as you > have pointed out that how you think about reality puts you in the > right direction. I notice that when I think about anatta there is a > kind of loneliness in contemplating a universe without any beings, > just mechanical actions arising and falling away. I think that my > attachment to the concept of beings is obvious and it keeps > delusory thoughts being generated about self and others. ------ N: We all cling to self and person so long as we are not sotaapannas. But it is good to realise this, and to remember that also such clinging is a conditioned dhamma, devoid of self. All such thoughts arise just for a moment and are then gone. No need to dwell for a long time on any thought that arises. ------ Nina. #113832 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions for Nina 1: body intimation as "not suitable for comprehension" nilovg Dear Phil, Op 2-mrt-2011, om 3:37 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I thought this intimation was anytime the cittas caused a change in > facial expression, for example, whether inention to communicate was > involved or not. So it is only when there is an intention to > communicate? ------ N: Yes, when you have the wish to convey something to another person so that he understands what you mean. For instance, you point your finger into a certain direction to draw someone's attention to something that appears. This is different from making meaningless gesture with your arm, swaying it around. ------ > Ph: But what we understand as "intention" in conventional language > is very different from "intention" in paramattha terms, isn't it? > Isn't there always cetana, therefore always intention in any > action, technically speak? ------ N: Cetanaa accompanies each citta, kusala citta, akusala citta, kiriyacitta and vipaakacitta. When we hear the word intention we usually think of kusala intention and akusala intention. There can be intention or volition to do what is good or what is evil. But there is not always intention to communicate something to someone else. -------- > Ph: To me, it wouldn't seem to matter if the person intended to > express anger (in conventional terms, thinking "I will do this > now!) or whether the dosa rooted cittas caused change in facial > expression with no conscious intention of the person involved... ----- N: Again, the question is: does he want to communicate something? ------- > > Ph: It is always good to be as sensitive as possible to whether our > speech is harsh, or confusing, speech is a great human gift that we > have to use with care and gratitude for having been born in this > human realm. ------ N: Having been born in this human realm gives us the opportunity to listen to the Dhamma. Otherwise we would not even know that kusala citta or akusala citta can condition speech. We would not know that these are cittas arising because of conditions, no self directing them. --- Nina. #113833 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 2:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The application of mindfulness on dhammas. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 28-feb-2011, om 8:01 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I'm also interested in how you would further define the fourth > foundation? It seems like it is a complex level of satipatthana, > involving aspects of Dhamma. It's always been a confusing level for > me. -------- N: I wrote a post to Rob M on this subject and now I see that you raised this matter. Are you able to trace it, otherwise I repost it. Nina. #113834 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 7:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 1-mrt-2011, om 1:56 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > Those are good reminders, and it's important to remember as you > > have pointed out that how you think about reality puts you in the > > right direction. I notice that when I think about anatta there is a > > kind of loneliness in contemplating a universe without any beings, > > just mechanical actions arising and falling away. I think that my > > attachment to the concept of beings is obvious and it keeps > > delusory thoughts being generated about self and others. > ------ > N: We all cling to self and person so long as we are not sotaapannas. > But it is good to realise this, and to remember that also such > clinging is a conditioned dhamma, devoid of self. All such thoughts > arise just for a moment and are then gone. No need to dwell for a > long time on any thought that arises. Thanks Nina, that is a good point. It keeps the mind pointed in the right direction, even with regard to "thoughts of self" not having any self behind them. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113835 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 7:30 pm Subject: the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > > Hi Robert E and Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > > Hi Rob E, > > > > Without getting into how your thread with Ken H developed and so on, I think you made a good summary here: > > > > --- On Mon, 28/2/11, Robert E wrote: > > >Likewise the realization of anatta is an understanding that the normal human assumption of a self is actually not there; it's the awakening to the nature of an illusion, not to the reality of something positive that *is* there. If I see a dhamma with panna and have insight into its nature as anatta, I am seeing that where I associated a dhamma with self-nature and the character of a self, I now see that it has nothing of the kind. It is free of self or anything pertaining to a self. I see its true character as anatta, but there is no way in which the dhamma behaves or displays itself that shows an "anatta" because "anatta" is not a "something,"... > > .... > > S: I tend to agree with you here. When there is the touching of hardness or the seeing of visbile object, there is just that dhamma experienced (and another dhamma experiencing) - no thing, no atta involved - just the dhamma appearing. > > > ----------- > > KH: OK, I know when I am outgunned! :-) > > But, just for the record, maybe I should try to sum up the arguments so far. Starting with mine: > > As I see it, an inherent characteristic exists irrespectively of whether or not it is observed. Therefore, (taking a conventional example) I believe iron possesses its magnetic property irrespectively of whether a magnetic field is currently acting upon it. > > In the same way, I believe that a dhamma possesses its anatta property irrespectively of whether the idea of atta has ever occurred to anyone. > > However, I should be prepared to concede defeat on this issue. I do seem to be in a minority of one. :-) And so I am prepared to be coaxed in from the cold. > > Of course, the best way of persuading me would be to find the answer in the Pali texts. But even without that, I could be persuaded by certain other explanations. > > Take anicca, for example. I have always thought that a conditioned dhamma fell away *because it possessed the anicca characteristic*. But I suspect I have been wrong about that. Maybe it is conditioned by other dhammas to fall away. > > It's a similar story with dukkha. I have always assumed conditioned dhammas were ultimately repulsive because they bore the dukkha characteristic. But maybe they are repulsive because they are judged by panna to be repulsive (in view of their impermanence). (?) > > I genuinely could be persuaded. If I am, however, I might stop referring to anicca dukkha and anatta as *inherent* characteristics. Wouldn't it be better to just call them characteristics? > > Or, better still, I could call them the three basic *facts* of existence, as does one of my Buddhist books. I don't know what the final answer is, but I think the kind of inquiry you express in this post is very healthy. Instead of having a set view, you have a strong belief in the characteristics but are looking into exactly how they occur and what is the best way to understand and characterize it. Although I argue a lot, that is exactly the way I think about these things in my own mind. I don't put a final seal on anything because I know my understanding is limited, so I'm always hoping for an advance rather than to stay with what I already think I know. I think that we could have a really fruitful discussion of whether magnetism exists when there is no magnetic field and what it would mean for something to have a "characteristic" even when it is not "active." I am not sure if anyone but me has the interest or patience to look into something like that in fine detail, but if you would like to, let me know as I am game. I think that sometimes we fail to understand precisely what we mean by such things, and that finding out what the limits are of such definitions and what they do or don't indicate is valuable for understanding. I think your question about whether something bears an inherent characteristic and is *thus* a certain way, or whether the characteristic is merely a description of something that happens to be true about that thing, is a very worthwhile inquiry as well. I tend to think that characteristics are formed by the way in which something is, rather than the other way around. In other words, let's say there is a law of samsara, given the basic design of how samsara functions, and that law is that nothing is static but that everything is in a constant state of perpetual change, and that is called the anicca principle. Well that law dictates that everything will change at all times. Therefore when you find a dhamma, something that does exist and that does appear and disappear, if you observe it, it will necessarily be in a state of change, given that "law." It is not that the dhamma itself *has* this characteristic, it is more like it is subject to this way of functioning because of the design of the universe in which it occurs. It is the way "all dhammas are." If one say tha the dhamma *has* this characteristic, for me it leads to the idea that it is an entity with these fixed features and it creates a kind of self or own-being. If it is just functioning according to the conditions that make it so, then it is not an entity but just something that arises in the way that the design or "mold" for it allows. It has nothing of its own, no own-being, just a way of behaving when it arises and falls during its fleetin existence. I would highly recommend the recent post by Ken O. where he quotes from the Path of Discrimination on the characteristics that form the three marks. I found it a great explanation that is well detailed and highly illuminating on this topic we have been struggling over. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #113836 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 7:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The application of mindfulness on dhammas. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 28-feb-2011, om 8:01 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > I'm also interested in how you would further define the fourth > > foundation? It seems like it is a complex level of satipatthana, > > involving aspects of Dhamma. It's always been a confusing level for > > me. > -------- > N: I wrote a post to Rob M on this subject and now I see that you > raised this matter. Are you able to trace it, otherwise I repost it. > Nina. I am not very good at retracing the posts. If you would be kind enough to repost it that would be really helpful. Thanks! I would love to see something that helps to explain this a bit more. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #113838 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Mar 3, 2011 9:27 pm Subject: How is wisdom and other wholesome qualities accumulated? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, What carries and accumulates wisdom (panna) from moment to moment? What carries and accumulates other wholesome qualities from moment to moment? What carries and accumulates unwholesome qualities from moment to moment? Is it bhavanga citta, or some other kind of citta? With metta, Alex #113839 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 3:20 am Subject: Re: wisdom and doing kenhowardau Hi Nina (and Robert E), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > <. . .> > N: You remind me of a text: quoted from Survey, ch 3: > Even if a Buddha had not been born and discovered the truth, dhammas > arise and fall away because of their own conditions and their own > true nature. We read in the "Gradual Sayings", Book of the Threes, Ch > XIV, 134, Appearance, that the Buddha said: > > Monks, whether there be an appearance or non-appearance of a > Tathgata, this causal law of nature, this orderly fixing of dhammas > prevails, <. . .> ------------------------ KH: Thanks for that quote, Nina, I had it dimly in mind in one of my replies to Robert. Precisely how to interpret it is difficult to know, of course, but at least we all have the general idea. :-) Ken H #113840 From: "robmoult" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 4:07 am Subject: Re: How is wisdom and other wholesome qualities accumulated? robmoult Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > What carries and accumulates wisdom (panna) from moment to moment? > > What carries and accumulates other wholesome qualities from moment to moment? > > What carries and accumulates unwholesome qualities from moment to moment? > > Is it bhavanga citta, or some other kind of citta? > ===== The Yogacara school would tell you that it was the alaya-vijnana (storehouse consciousness). However, the Theravada school rejected this concept as an attempt to introduce the Hindu atman. I seem to remember this type of question being raised in the Milinda Panha and Nagasena replying that the sweetness of a mango cannot be identified as being in the seed, but rather as a potential (of course, this analogy does not reflect today's understanding of DNA). The implication is that the answer is more of a potential / accumulation (ayuhana), rather than in a citta which arises and falls away. This accumulation operates "across the stream" of cittas through natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). Alex, I don't think that we have chatted before. You raise a deep question. I apologize if my brief answer caused more confusion rather than clarity. Metta, Rob M :-) #113841 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 5:18 am Subject: the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ---- <. . .> > RE: so I'm always hoping for an advance rather than to stay with what I already think I know. ---- KH: I agree, we need to be good listeners. ------- > RE: I think that we could have a really fruitful discussion of whether magnetism exists when there is no magnetic field and what it would mean for something to have a "characteristic" even when it is not "active." I am not sure if anyone but me has the interest or patience to look into something like that in fine detail, but if you would like to, let me know as I am game. I think that sometimes we fail to understand precisely what we mean by such things, and that finding out what the limits are of such definitions and what they do or don't indicate is valuable for understanding. -------- KH: Yes, but as you say, I need to hear other explanations. I have had enough of my own. ------------------ <. . .> > RE: I tend to think that characteristics are formed by the way in which something is, rather than the other way around. In other words, let's say there is a law of samsara, given the basic design of how samsara functions, and that law is that nothing is static but that everything is in a constant state of perpetual change, and that is called the anicca principle. Well that law dictates that everything will change at all times. Therefore when you find a dhamma, something that does exist and that does appear and disappear, if you observe it, it will necessarily be in a state of change, given that "law." It is not that the dhamma itself *has* this characteristic, it is more like it is subject to this way of functioning because of the design of the universe in which it occurs. It is the way "all dhammas are." -------------------- KH: I have no argument with that. Would you apply the same principle to anatta? Can there be a law that prevents the existence of atta - even before the *idea* of atta has occurred? -------------------------------- > RE: If one say tha the dhamma *has* this characteristic, for me it leads to the idea that it is an entity with these fixed features and it creates a kind of self or own-being. -------------------------------- KH: Good, then you are on the right track. Dhammas do have own-being. If you insist you can say they have "self in the sense of own being." Just don't say they have self in the sense of atta. ------------------------------------------- > RE: If it is just functioning according to the conditions that make it so, then it is not an entity but just something that arises in the way that the design or "mold" for it allows. It has nothing of its own, no own-being, just a way of behaving when it arises and falls during its fleetin existence. ------------------------------------------ KH: Conditioned dhammas are the universe (loka). They are not illusory concepts. ------------------------------------------------------------- > RE: I would highly recommend the recent post by Ken O. where he quotes from the Path of Discrimination on the characteristics that form the three marks. I found it a great explanation that is well detailed and highly illuminating on this topic we have been struggling over. --------------------------------------------------------------- KH: I agree, the quote seems to be precisely on the point we have been discussing: "But here the following difference should be understood; impermanence and the characteristic of impermanence, pain and the characteristic of pain, no self and characteristic of no self." Unfortunately, the explanation that followed went over my head. What did you make of it? Ken H #113842 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 6:12 am Subject: saturday discussion1 rjkjp1 Dear all, some discussions on saturday. 1.Are animals missing any cetasikas that humans have? Sujin: they see, they hear , they have dosa, lobha. Robert: how about panna cetasika, do animals have that? Sujin: do humans[these days]. Robert: ha. Ok but can animals have panna. Sujin: who can know? Robert: in the texts some did , like the bats at the time of kassapa Buddha. ------------------ Indonesian Bhikkhu who stays at wat bovornniwet.: If one just studies Abhidhamma it is just like sitting in a car and never drive it. And one will just have more mana(conceit). Sujin: can one drive a car if one knows nothing about driving. Bhikkhu: Yes sure. Robert: mana (conceit ) is conditioned to arise. If one doesn't study Abhidhamma one might have conceit about that. Or conceit that one does 'meditation' . Robert #113843 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 6:30 am Subject: saturday dicussion 2 rjkjp1 Dear All Robert: a friend sent me a question about worldly wisdom. Are clever scientists , for example, having any panna when they invent something, or if someone is a visionary businessman can that be with panna>? Sujin, if it is not about dana, or sila, or Dhamma it is just lobha. Robert: so even Einstein , when he understood the theroy of relativity was just having refined lobha? Sujin: Nods Robert: but the fact that he was so intelligent must have been due to past panna developed in past lives.? Sujin: nods Robert #113844 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 6:32 am Subject: saturday 3 (jhana) rjkjp1 Dear all Someone asked me about the meaning of jhana in different contexts in the texts. Sujin: we have to study carefully to understand the meaning , it varies.. I think there have been discussions on this list about this topic. Does anyone have links to these? robert #113845 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 8:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] saturday 3 (jhana) nilovg Dear Rob K, Op 4-mrt-2011, om 7:32 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > omeone asked me about the meaning of jhana in different contexts in > the texts. > Sujin: we have to study carefully to understand the meaning , it > varies.. > > I think there have been discussions on this list about this topic. > Does anyone have links to these? ------ N: Too many to give links. Howard quoted many texts about jhaana, right concentration and jhaana. It is well worth to go more into this subject. Thanks for your summary of the discussions. ------- Nina. #113846 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 8:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 4-mrt-2011, om 4:20 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > Monks, whether there be an appearance or non-appearance of a > > Tathgata, this causal law of nature, this orderly fixing of dhammas > > prevails, > <. . .> > ------------------------ > > KH: Thanks for that quote, Nina, I had it dimly in mind in one of > my replies to Robert. > > Precisely how to interpret it is difficult to know, of course, but > at least we all have the general idea. :-) ------ N: I think that you covered this subject very well. Reality is reality, dhammas take their course according to conditions, no matter someone understands them or not. Nina. #113847 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 8:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The application of mindfulness on dhammas. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 3-mrt-2011, om 20:31 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I am not very good at retracing the posts. If you would be kind > enough to repost it that would be really helpful. Thanks! I would > love to see something that helps to explain this a bit more. ----- N: It was all due to my confusion of the names Rob. The posts are so many that I can hardly keep up with the tempo. Here it is. Let me know whether there is anything not clear. You said that you would like to know more about the fourth application of mindfulness, mindfulness of dhammas. This includes naama and ruupa as objects of mindfulness under various aspects. The five khandhas are nothing else but the three paramattha dhammas of citta, cetasika and ruupa. Or the aayatanas: naama and ruupa but now under the aspect of dhammas that are associating so that there are conditions for different experiences. We are so forgetful of the dhamma appearing at this moment and therefore the Buddha taught many different aspects of considering them. They are just naama and ruupa, just dhammas, and this is the sober truth. It has to be hammered in again and again. Then there are the hindrances, akusala cetasikas and the factors of enlightenment, sobhana cetasikas leading to enlightenment. We find it very important not to have akusala cittas and want to have kusala cittas, but they are just dhammas arising because of conditions. We are inclined to take akusala as well as kusala for self, but they can be objects of awareness so that they are seen as they really are. The four truths: only in thoroughly known all phenomena as conditioned naama and ruupa can the four noble truths be realised. The truths pertain to naama and ruupa appearing at this moment. Seeing now is dukkha, and if there had not been clinging to dhammas there would be no birth and we would not see now. The ceasing of dukkha, the goal of the Buddha's teaching on satipa.t.thaana, and the way thereto, the eightfold Path, it is very suitable that this is taught at the end of the four Applications of Mindfulness. Through mindfulness and direct understanding of whatever dhamma appears at this moment the eightfold Path is being developed. ----- Nina. #113848 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 9:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samsara nilovg Dear Martin, you wrote: > It is only in the meaning of dukkha for samsara (not the term)in > the teaching of > > > >Dependent Origination. This makes the difference between Buddhism > and Hinduism. ------ N: As Ken O said, only the Buddha taught anattaa. I found another text where samsaara is mentioned. In the Parinibbaanasutta (D II, Ch II translation Wheel Publication no 67-69) we read that the Buddha said: "It is through not realizing, Bhikkhus, through not penetrating the four noble Truths, that this long course of birth and deaths have been passed through and undergone by me as well as by you." The Commentary (The Last days of the Buddha) "Rebirth (sa.msita.m) means transmigration (sa.msarita.m, alternative form of past participle)." The translation transmigration is misleading, because no self transmigrates, but the last citta of this life is succeeded by the first citta of the next life. Thus here the reason for being in the cycle (sa.msarita.m) has been dealt with, by ignorance we are in this cycle. ------ Nina. #113849 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 10:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom and other wholesome qualities accumulated? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 3-mrt-2011, om 22:27 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > What carries and accumulates wisdom (panna) from moment to moment? > > What carries and accumulates other wholesome qualities from moment > to moment? > > What carries and accumulates unwholesome qualities from moment to > moment? --------- N: Rob M answered this very well: 'This accumulation operates "across the stream" of cittas through natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya).' I could add something. The fact that natural decisive support condition can operate is due to the fact that each citta is succeeded by a following citta in this long series of cittas that goes on from life to life. There was clinging before to all sense objects and clinging falls away immediately with the citta. However, the tendency to clinging goes on from citta to citta by way of latent tendency, lying dormant in the citta. The latent tendencies are subtle akusala dhammas which are powerful and lie dormant in the succession of cittas of living beings. They do not arise but they condition the arising of akusala citta. Also wholesome inclinations are accumulated. In the Saddhammapajjotik, the Commentary to the Claniddesa, on Poslas Questions , the meaning of latent tendencies has been explained as follows: The word saya is used for inclination or disposition that lies dormant and that is a supporting condition for beings. This word designates beings accumulation in the succession of cittas of wrong view or right view, sensuous clinging or renunciation. The word anusaya is used because the defilements lie dormant and persist, they lie dormant in the succession of beings cittas. Thus aasaya denotes both wholesome and unwholesome dispositions that are accumulated and anusaaya denotes the latent tendency to certain akusala dhammas that are accumulated. ------- Nina. #113850 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 1:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question: What are the Direct Causes of Kamma?/Nina nilovg Dear Vince and Howard, Op 2-mrt-2011, om 2:13 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > I read in the Vism: "The ordinary term "motion" (gatisamanna) > refers to > successive arisings in adjacent locations (desantaruppatti) " > > And also in the same Vism. there is this definition on the four > elements: > > "Air: (vayodistension and motion)". > > I wonder if the "motion" you explain can be closer to the later > while our common > use of the word "motion" sounds closer to that successive arising. > > Should we should understand both uses of "motion" inside the same > concept?. > It can be a translation problem of duplicity of one word to be > applied over > different things? ------------- N: In the Vis. XI, 93, the word air is used for motion, and this is all right so long as we understand that motion, vayo, the element of wind, is meant. It has the characteristic of distending and its function is to cause motion. It is manifested as conveying. Then in a footnote more explanations are given. It is propelling, causing successive arisings in adjacent locations as you quote. Or, it is stirred, the meaning is that the conglomeration of elements is made to move by its action as cause for successive arisings in adjacent locations. It is the ruupa motion or element of wind, that conditions successive arisings in adjacent locations. It is said: conglomeration of elements, it arises in a group where there are always the other three great elements present and other ruupas. For example solidity or earth also has a function. And note: successive arisings. Thus, motion is different from the way we use this word in conventional language where we think of a situation where matters are staying for some time. Motion falls away immediately, but than another unit which arises is performing its function. The Vis. XX, 61-64 analysis steps, moving forward etc. It explains which elements are predominant and which are not. Lifting up, shifting forward and sideways: Fire and wind are predominant, and earth and water are subordinate. What is the purpose? To show that what we take for 'I am moving' are mere elements performing their functions. This is very important when we read such passages. ------- Nina. #113851 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] You too should exert yourself... nilovg Dear Alex, Op 2-mrt-2011, om 18:12 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Khanika means momentary change. Like billions of cittas happening > per second. > > Anicca = inconstancy. Ex: The body is going to age, get sick and > die. It may not be old or dead now, it may not look like it has > major alterations, but it will become old and it will die. > Thing may not change now, but it will. > > IMHO, teaching of anicca is far more dispassion producing than > teaching on khanika. We don't suffer due to the fact that things > are always changing at the rate of billions per second. We suffer > when the body (or mind) alters in the undesirable way despite our > best wishes to the contrary. ------ N: I understand your point of view. Pain is one meaning of dukkha. But we have to remember the deepest meaning of dukkha: a conditioned reality is impermanent and therefore it is dukkha. When we see the deepest meaning of dukkha we also shall understand what this means: sa.msaara dukkha: the dukkha connected with the cycle of birth and death: birth is dukkha, being in the cycle is dukkha. Bodily pain is indeed very distressing, but we have to look for the real cause: clinging to life in the cycle. So long as we cling to life we are reborn there will be pain. The realisation of the four noble truths will lead to the end of dukkha. Dukkha has to be truly and thoroughly understood: the impermanence of realities at each moment, seeing now, that is impermanent, thinking now that is impermanent means their nature of dukkha, no refuge. If we do not understand that anicca is impermanence of each moment now we shall not grasp the truth of dukkha. The way you see anicca seems to me a way of thinking about transience, or did I misunderstand? I do think we have to realize the truth of this moment, of the reality appearing now that falls away immediately. In other words, anicca is khanika, momentary. #113852 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 9:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Robert) - In a message dated 3/4/2011 12:18:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Robert E, ---- <. . .> > RE: so I'm always hoping for an advance rather than to stay with what I already think I know. ---- KH: I agree, we need to be good listeners. ------- > RE: I think that we could have a really fruitful discussion of whether magnetism exists when there is no magnetic field and what it would mean for something to have a "characteristic" even when it is not "active." I am not sure if anyone but me has the interest or patience to look into something like that in fine detail, but if you would like to, let me know as I am game. I think that sometimes we fail to understand precisely what we mean by such things, and that finding out what the limits are of such definitions and what they do or don't indicate is valuable for understanding. -------- KH: Yes, but as you say, I need to hear other explanations. I have had enough of my own. ------------------ <. . .> > RE: I tend to think that characteristics are formed by the way in which something is, rather than the other way around. In other words, let's say there is a law of samsara, given the basic design of how samsara functions, and that law is that nothing is static but that everything is in a constant state of perpetual change, and that is called the anicca principle. Well that law dictates that everything will change at all times. Therefore when you find a dhamma, something that does exist and that does appear and disappear, if you observe it, it will necessarily be in a state of change, given that "law." It is not that the dhamma itself *has* this characteristic, it is more like it is subject to this way of functioning because of the design of the universe in which it occurs. It is the way "all dhammas are." -------------------- KH: I have no argument with that. Would you apply the same principle to anatta? Can there be a law that prevents the existence of atta - even before the *idea* of atta has occurred? ------------------------------------------------ The facts of anicca and idhappaccayata are "laws" that guarantee that there is no thing having or being "self". ----------------------------------------------- -------------------------------- > RE: If one say tha the dhamma *has* this characteristic, for me it leads to the idea that it is an entity with these fixed features and it creates a kind of self or own-being. -------------------------------- KH: Good, then you are on the right track. Dhammas do have own-being. ---------------------------------------------- Whatever is contingent may have being but surely cannot have separate or "own" being. And what is the fictional "self" of anything supposed to be if not separate, own, and independent being and identity? --------------------------------------------- > KH: If you insist you can say they have "self in the sense of own being." Just don't say they have self in the sense of atta. ------------------------------------------------------- What is the meaning of this "atta" that is rejected? It is "the soul" or core identity of an alleged, real and separate entity. The atta that is denied is exactly separate and own being. What is it that YOU are denying when you speak of anatta? ---------------------------------------------------- >> RE: If it is just functioning according to the conditions that make it so, then it is not an entity but just something that arises in the way that the design or "mold" for it allows. It has nothing of its own, no own-being, just a way of behaving when it arises and falls during its fleetin existence. ------------------------------------------ > KH: Conditioned dhammas are the universe (loka). They are not illusory concepts. ------------------------------------------------------------- >> RE: I would highly recommend the recent post by Ken O. where he quotes from the Path of Discrimination on the characteristics that form the three marks. I found it a great explanation that is well detailed and highly illuminating on this topic we have been struggling over. --------------------------------------------------------------- > KH: I agree, the quote seems to be precisely on the point we have been discussing: > "But here the following difference should be understood; impermanence and the characteristic of impermanence, pain and the characteristic of p ain, no self and characteristic of no self." > Unfortunately, the explanation that followed went over my head. What did you make of it? > Ken H ============================= With metta, Howard /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #113853 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 6:14 pm Subject: Re: How is wisdom and other wholesome qualities accumulated? truth_aerator Hello Rob M, all, >RM:The implication is that the answer is more of a potential / >accumulation (ayuhana), rather than in a citta which arises and >falls >away. This accumulation operates "across the stream" of cittas >>through natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). How is "natural decisive support condition" stored/saved/accumulated? How do mental inclinations, qualities, etc act across time? For example: How does the quality developed multiple lives before, can act on state of mind in this life? Thank you for your reply, With best wishes, Alex #113854 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 6:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom and other wholesome qualities accumulated? truth_aerator Dear Nina, Rob M, all, Thank you for your reply. What, I personally think, is that inclinations are carried from moment to moment and float up when appropriate conditions are met. With metta, Alex #113855 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 6:47 pm Subject: was: You too should exert yourself... truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, > N: I understand your point of view. Pain is one meaning of dukkha. > But we have to remember the deepest meaning of dukkha: I agree. Dukkha is much more than pain. Any kind of aggregate, any/all types of existence are included in Dukkha. With metta, Alex #113856 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 3:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom and other wholesome qualities accumulated? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 3/4/2011 1:44:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Nina, Rob M, all, Thank you for your reply. What, I personally think, is that inclinations are carried from moment to moment and float up when appropriate conditions are met. ----------------------------------------- I tend to disagree. I don't know what sort of a phenomenon an "inclination" might be. What I think is that nothing at all is passed along, and there are no "accumulation entities". Rather, when an act of will or an action pursuant to it occurs, i.e., kamma, that kamma, right then and there, is a conditioning for future actions, i.e., an inclination. The effect occurs whenever appropriate other conditions hold. Nothing is passed along; it is action-at-a -temporal-distance. Nothing is accumulated. The initial kamma, at the very time of its occurrence, conditions the future response, and repeated occurrences of such kamma simply strengthen the future responses. This *seems* like an "accumulation", but nothing is accumulated. If such action-at-a -temporal-distance seems odd to us, we might think about quantum mechanics for motivation. ------------------------------------------ With metta, Alex =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113857 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 8:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom and other wholesome qualities accumulated? truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, >I tend to disagree. I don't know what sort of a phenomenon an >"inclination" might be. By inclination I mean, for example: tendency for greed, anger and delusion or the opposites of them. > Nothing is passed along; it is action-at-a -temporal-distance. But if only the present exists and not the past, then how can cause from non-existent past affect today? If cause ceases the next moment, how can it produce effect? It is like a seed in the soil. If it disappears before growing into a plant, the plant (its effect) will not grow. By inclinations (or potentials) being passed from citta to citta I've meant like this example with the seed. As long as there is a seed, it can grow into a plant if certain additional conditions are met. If it disappears, then what can grow into a plant? With metta, Alex #113858 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 1:14 am Subject: Reaching Formlessness by Breathing! bhikkhu5 Friends: If one wish to experience Infinite Formlessness? The Blessed Buddha once explained: Bhikkhus, the concentration gained by Awareness by Breathing, when developed & cultivated, is of great fruit & big advantage... And how, Bhikkhus, is concentration by Awareness by Breathing developed & cultivated so that it is of great fruit & advantage? Bhikkhus, when one have gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, there one sits down cross-legged, having straightened one's body and back, and set up awareness around the nostrils, then just plain aware of that itself one breathes in, & just solely aware of only that breathing itself one breathes out... Breathing in long, one knows, notes and understands: I inhale long! Breathing out long, one knows, notes & understands: I exhale long! ... ... ... ( steps 2-15) ... ... ... One trains thus: Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe in! One trains thus: Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe out! Therefore, Bhikkhus, if a friend wishes: May I, via the complete transcendence of experience of form, with the passing away and silencing of sensory reaction, without giving any attention to any experience of any diversity, detail or any difference whatsoever, just solely aware that this open space is indeed infinite & endless, enter & dwell immersed in the sphere of this infinitude of space, then this same concentration by Awareness by Breathing should be cultivated often and devoted much wholehearted attention! Furthermore if such friend should wish: By the transcendence of this infinitude of space, just singly aware that consciousness is infinite, may I enter and dwell all immersed in that sphere of the infinitude of consciousness; then Awareness by Breathing should also here be trained often and devoted much sincere attention! Even further; if one should wish: May I, by wholly transcending this subtle sphere of the infinity of consciousness, only aware of that there is nothing, enter & dwell in empty void of nothingness, then this very same exercise: Awareness by Breathing should be trained regularly and dedicated much earnest consideration! Even more; if one should wish: May I, by thoroughly transcending this delicate sphere of void nothingness, enter and dwell in the refined sphere of inert neither-perception-nor-non-perception, then this very same exercise: Awareness by Breathing should be trained regularly and dedicated much earnest consideration! Finally; if one should wish: By leaving all behind, and transcending even this placid sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, may I enter & dwell in the ultimate ceasing of perception & feeling then this very same sublime meditation: Awareness by Breathing should be repeated everyday and thus given the primary priority! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikāya. [V:316-7] section 54: Ānāpānasamyutta. Thread 8: The simile of the Lamp! <.....> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <...> #113859 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 2:22 pm Subject: Disgust Evaporates Lust! bhikkhu5 Friends: Seeing Disgusting Objects Dispels Greed! The Blessed Buddha once said: Awareness of the Body induces all advantageous qualities including clear comprehension! The ancients said: Protect the sign, protect the nimitta...! The Asubha Nimitta is a Disgusting Sign fixed in memory by meditation, that one can redirect mind to whenever overcome by lust, greed and desire. This sign detaches the mind from clinging to mere forms of foul impurities... One then gain an 'off' button to turn 'off' desire and craving... This indeed is the very KEY to disable suffering, since craving is the primary cause of all suffering. Corpse Meditation (Asubha-Bhvan) effectively reduces desire! <....> Clever Disgust cools all obsessive greed and addictive lust: For Inspiration: A collection of Corpse Pictures Warning: Only for Adults http://s914.photobucket.com/albums/ac350/Asubha/ Password: corpses Pick out the most disgusting picture and memorize it firmly and vividly. Remember it whenever greedy! Then the greed will instantly vanish! And the frustrating urge and tearing longing therefore subsides! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #113860 From: "robmoult" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 9:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom and other wholesome qualities accumulated? robmoult Hi Alex, Howard and All, Natural Decisive Support describes a relationship between dhammas. It is a property. It does not 'accumulate', but it can be a strong relationship or a weak relationship. In the sentence, "A comes before B", 'A' and 'B' are things whereas 'comes before' is a relationship. One could say, "A naturally decisively supports B"; 'A' and 'B' are specific dhammas and 'naturally decisively supports' is the relationship between the two dhammas. So in the case of natural decisive support, what is 'A' and what is 'B'? The Patthana explains that 'B' is the current mental state. 'B' are the 89 mental states (cittas) with their associated 52 mental factors. In other words, natural decisive support conditions every single mental state that arises. Why did anger arise? Natural decisive support was a conditioning factor causing anger to arise. Why did generosity arise? Natural decisive support was a conditioning factor causing generosity to arise. So if 'the current mental state' is the conditioned state (natural decisive support being the conditioning agent or the 'relationship'), what is 'A', the conditioning state... the 'trigger'? The Patthana explains that 'A' can include: - A past strong mental state (one of 89) and its associated 52 mental factors - A past strong rupa - Some past strong concepts 'Past' is clearly understood... we are talking about 'action at a distance' (BTW, there are only two conditions which operate 'at a distance'; natural decisive support condition and kamma condition). What does 'strong' mean? I have not found a clear explanation in the commentaries, just brief etymological notes. Personally, I see 'strong' as implying one of: - Recently happened (If I had a bad day, that 'sours' my mind) - Happened repeatedly (With regular meditation, the mind is naturally calm) - Happened with lots of volition (A vow made by the hermit Sumeda influenced mental states of Bodhisattas for many lifetimes) When we talk of 'a habit', 'a talent', 'a trait', 'a tendency' or 'personality', we are talking about the effect of natural decisive support condition. We take precepts (rules of training) to reinforce a commitment to avoid unskillful actions such as killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying and intoxication. Regularly taking precepts makes them a strong conditioning factor to influence future current mental states.... and the conditional relationship between the 'regular precepets' (the 'A') and 'future mental states' (the 'B') is called natural decisive support. Natural decisive support is a hugely important concept. Chapter XVII of the Visudhimagga explains: - Natural decisive support is one of the conditions linking avijja to sankhara [paragraph 102, 104] - Natural decisive support is one of the two conditions (together with kamma) linking sankhara to vinnana [paragraph 177 - 181] - Natural decisive support is one of the conditions linking vinnana to nama-rupa according to the Suttana method [paragraph 201] - Natural decisive support is one of the conditions linking phassa with vedana, both at the sense door [paragraph 231] and the mind door [paragraph 232] - Natural decisive support is the *only* condition linking vedana to tanha [paragraph 237 - 238] - Natural decisive support is one of the conditions linking tanha to upadana - Natural decisive support is one of the conditions linking upadana to bhava [paragraph 269] - Natural decisive support is one of the two conditions (together with kamma) linking jati with jara marana, soka-parideva-dukkha-domanassa [paragrah 270] In other words, the main condition holding the factors of paticcasamuppada together is natural decisive support. Reflecting on anatta may lead to the thought, "there is no self to control the mind... so how is improvement possible?". Relecting on natural decisive support leads to the thought, "though the mind cannot be controlled (it is a natural system), the mind can be trained and that is how improvement is possible". Groundbreaking research by Richard Davidson showed that the positive effects of mindfulness meditation could be measured, even months after the subject had stopped meditating. This is natural decisive support condition in action! So let's push all this theory aside and go out to do wholesome things... it will have an impact on the mind in this life and will also positively impact future lives! That is the teaching of natural decisive support condition... and it has been verified by modern scientific experiments. Metta, Rob :-) PS: Howard, so nice to chat with you again after so many years! #113861 From: "robmoult" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 10:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom and other wholesome qualities accumulated? robmoult Oops --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: - Natural decisive support is one of the conditions linking tanha to upadana... Visuddhimagga reference is Chapter XVII, paragraph 248 #113862 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 10:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom and other wholesome qualities accumulated? truth_aerator Thank you Rob M for your reply. #113863 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 7:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom and other wholesome qualities accumulated? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 3/4/2011 3:49:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, all, >I tend to disagree. I don't know what sort of a phenomenon an >"inclination" might be. By inclination I mean, for example: tendency for greed, anger and delusion or the opposites of them. ------------------------------------------------------- No, of course I know that 'inclination' and 'tendency' are synonyms. What I don't know is where it would fit under Buddhist classification. It is not exactly cetana, is it? And if not, then what is it? ------------------------------------------------------- > Nothing is passed along; it is action-at-a -temporal-distance. But if only the present exists and not the past, then how can cause from non-existent past affect today? -------------------------------------------------------- It's occurrence in the past together with current conditions suffices. That having been, this will be. We presume from everyday mechanics that contiguity is required, but it is not. ------------------------------------------------------- If cause ceases the next moment, how can it produce effect? ---------------------------------------------------- By the very fact of its having occurred. No contiguity-connection is necessary, even though we are accustomed to thinking otherwise. --------------------------------------------------- It is like a seed in the soil. If it disappears before growing into a plant, the plant (its effect) will not grow. -------------------------------------------------- That is a macroscopic example of contiguous conditionality. But that is not the only sort of conditionality, even at the macroscopic (aka "conventional") level. A Dhammic example of conditionality at a spatial distance that I think you will readily admit to is rebirth: An old man in Calcutta dies and is reborn in Chicago. Why should temporal distance seem less likely? ----------------------------------------------- By inclinations (or potentials) being passed from citta to citta I've meant like this example with the seed. As long as there is a seed, it can grow into a plant if certain additional conditions are met. If it disappears, then what can grow into a plant? ----------------------------------------------- Nothing grows into something else. One thing was, and another thing exists later, the latter conditioned by the former. A possibly clear, macroscopic example is the following: A sage's teachings are saved in a cave that is, a century later, buried by a landslide. A thousand years after that, an excavation unearths the scrolls. A scholar then studies the teachings and promulgates them. Eleven hundred years passed between the writing down of the teachings and their promulgation, and there was no passing along of the teachings during the interim. The writing down of the teachings then and there served as condition for their promulgation 1100 tears later. Other events had to occur along the way, of course, in particular the burying of the scrolls, which prevented weather erosion of them, and the excavation, which revealed them were among the conditions for the final promulgating. The best example of all is what we are discussing: Present kamma at the very moment of its occurrence serves as condition for future consequences. Aeons past a murder committed by a person now results in a hellish birth. Nothing could have been passed along. Inasmuch as there was no point of creation for a being, one has "existed" for an infinite period of time and has thus engaged in a literally infinite number of instances of volition. The doctrine of accumulation must then require that each citta contains a literally infinite number of "seeds". This is hardly plausible! ---------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113864 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 4, 2011 7:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom and other wholesome qualities accumulated? upasaka_howard Hi, Rob (and Alex) - In a message dated 3/4/2011 4:56:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@... writes: Hi Alex, Howard and All, Natural Decisive Support describes a relationship between dhammas. It is a property. It does not 'accumulate', but it can be a strong relationship or a weak relationship. In the sentence, "A comes before B", 'A' and 'B' are things whereas 'comes before' is a relationship. One could say, "A naturally decisively supports B"; 'A' and 'B' are specific dhammas and 'naturally decisively supports' is the relationship between the two dhammas. So in the case of natural decisive support, what is 'A' and what is 'B'? The Patthana explains that 'B' is the current mental state. 'B' are the 89 mental states (cittas) with their associated 52 mental factors. In other words, natural decisive support conditions every single mental state that arises. Why did anger arise? Natural decisive support was a conditioning factor causing anger to arise. Why did generosity arise? Natural decisive support was a conditioning factor causing generosity to arise. So if 'the current mental state' is the conditioned state (natural decisive support being the conditioning agent or the 'relationship'), what is 'A', the conditioning state... the 'trigger'? The Patthana explains that 'A' can include: - A past strong mental state (one of 89) and its associated 52 mental factors - A past strong rupa - Some past strong concepts 'Past' is clearly understood... we are talking about 'action at a distance' (BTW, there are only two conditions which operate 'at a distance'; natural decisive support condition and kamma condition). What does 'strong' mean? I have not found a clear explanation in the commentaries, just brief etymological notes. Personally, I see 'strong' as implying one of: - Recently happened (If I had a bad day, that 'sours' my mind) - Happened repeatedly (With regular meditation, the mind is naturally calm) - Happened with lots of volition (A vow made by the hermit Sumeda influenced mental states of Bodhisattas for many lifetimes) When we talk of 'a habit', 'a talent', 'a trait', 'a tendency' or 'personality', we are talking about the effect of natural decisive support condition. We take precepts (rules of training) to reinforce a commitment to avoid unskillful actions such as killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying and intoxication. Regularly taking precepts makes them a strong conditioning factor to influence future current mental states.... and the conditional relationship between the 'regular precepets' (the 'A') and 'future mental states' (the 'B') is called natural decisive support. Natural decisive support is a hugely important concept. Chapter XVII of the Visudhimagga explains: - Natural decisive support is one of the conditions linking avijja to sankhara [paragraph 102, 104] - Natural decisive support is one of the two conditions (together with kamma) linking sankhara to vinnana [paragraph 177 - 181] - Natural decisive support is one of the conditions linking vinnana to nama-rupa according to the Suttana method [paragraph 201] - Natural decisive support is one of the conditions linking phassa with vedana, both at the sense door [paragraph 231] and the mind door [paragraph 232] - Natural decisive support is the *only* condition linking vedana to tanha [paragraph 237 - 238] - Natural decisive support is one of the conditions linking tanha to upadana - Natural decisive support is one of the conditions linking upadana to bhava [paragraph 269] - Natural decisive support is one of the two conditions (together with kamma) linking jati with jara marana, soka-parideva-dukkha-domanassa [paragrah 270] In other words, the main condition holding the factors of paticcasamuppada together is natural decisive support. Reflecting on anatta may lead to the thought, "there is no self to control the mind... so how is improvement possible?". Relecting on natural decisive support leads to the thought, "though the mind cannot be controlled (it is a natural system), the mind can be trained and that is how improvement is possible". Groundbreaking research by Richard Davidson showed that the positive effects of mindfulness meditation could be measured, even months after the subject had stopped meditating. This is natural decisive support condition in action! So let's push all this theory aside and go out to do wholesome things... it will have an impact on the mind in this life and will also positively impact future lives! That is the teaching of natural decisive support condition... and it has been verified by modern scientific experiments. Metta, Rob :-) PS: Howard, so nice to chat with you again after so many years! ------------------------------------------------------ Thank you, Rob!! I feel the same!!! Also, I'm very pleased to have read what you have written here. It seems to me to confirm my understanding of this matter, and, in the process, it gives me a good feeling with regard to Abhidhamma. (You are a good teacher, Rob!! :-) ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113865 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Mar 5, 2011 3:16 am Subject: the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> > > KH: Dhammas do have own-being. > > > H: Whatever is contingent may have being but surely cannot have separate or "own" being. ---- KH: Why not? The contingent nature of a dhamma prevents it from being non-contingent: it doesn't prevent it from being separate! ------------------------------ > H: And what is the fictional "self" of anything supposed to be if not separate, own, and independent being and identity? ------------------------------ KH: Separate does not necessarily mean self. Namas and rupas are separate realities *and* they are not self. Similarly, "own" does not necessarily mean self. Every dhamma has its own being (sabhava) *and* is not self. However, "independent" (in the sense of independently arisen) *would* mean self. We can agree on that. :-) Ken H #113866 From: "Martin" Date: Sat Mar 5, 2011 3:53 am Subject: Re: Samsara cmkwk Dear Nina, Thank you for the information. (1) Yes, I agree, as Ken O said, only the Buddha taught anattaa. (2) Do you mean the term, samsara, mentioned only in the Commentary (The Last days of the Buddha), or the sutta (Parinibbaanasutta), or both? If the term only mentioned in the Commnetary but not in the sutta, one may conclude that the Buddha did not use the term (only in the meaning of dukkha for samsara). Regards, Martin #113867 From: "philip" Date: Sat Mar 5, 2011 10:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions for Nina 2: Turning away from akusala philofillet Hi Nina Thanks for your helpful post. I printed it out for reference in discussion in Thailand. > Sorry I delayed answering your other question. Howard answered this > already. I sometimes have to wait when there are other things to do > in the house, or, we are walking. I get more slow in all my > activities, as I am becoming older, and thus less time for mails. But > I keep on 'trying'. Well, from my point of view you have done so much good in terms of sharing Dhamma that you have a great amount of kusala behind you at all times even if you don't feel it on tired days! But it is there, it is a treasure that you have accumulated. (Well, that has been accumulated.) So the "trying" is more likely to be accompanied by kusala factors in your case, I think. I think of goodness as something that gets rolling, like a giant heavy wheel that is difficult to budge at first, but through the accumulation of kusala, it gets rolling. So your goodness is rolling, and it will keep rolling even on the tired and/or miserable days, and of course we all have those days coming our way, more and more of them the older we get, according to probability, anyways. But the goodness that has been accumulated is a treasure that keeps rolling, more for some of us than others. That may be a simplification of kamma, but sometimes we have earned such simplications. Metta, Phil #113868 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 5, 2011 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/4/2011 10:16:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> > > KH: Dhammas do have own-being. > > > H: Whatever is contingent may have being but surely cannot have separate or "own" being. ---- KH: Why not? The contingent nature of a dhamma prevents it from being non-contingent: it doesn't prevent it from being separate! ------------------------------------------------ When I speak of 'separate', I mean "independent" and "standing on its own". And what of having "own being". what depends on other conditions is not self-owning. ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ > H: And what is the fictional "self" of anything supposed to be if not separate, own, and independent being and identity? ------------------------------ KH: Separate does not necessarily mean self. Namas and rupas are separate realities *and* they are not self. -------------------------------------------------- Again, by 'separate' I mean more than distinguishable. I mean "existing on its own as an independent entity". ------------------------------------------------- Similarly, "own" does not necessarily mean self. Every dhamma has its own being (sabhava) *and* is not self. -------------------------------------------------- Every dhamma is a quality or function, but nothing about it is "own," for it is entirely dependent even for its very existence. ------------------------------------------------- However, "independent" (in the sense of independently arisen) *would* mean self. We can agree on that. :-) -------------------------------------------------- Yes, we can. ------------------------------------------------- Ken H ================================= With metta, Howard /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #113869 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 5:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The application of mindfulness on dhammas. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > > Op 3-mrt-2011, om 20:31 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > I am not very good at retracing the posts. If you would be kind > > enough to repost it that would be really helpful. Thanks! I would > > love to see something that helps to explain this a bit more. > ----- > N: It was all due to my confusion of the names Rob. The posts are so > many that I can hardly keep up with the tempo. Here it is. Let me > know whether there is anything not clear. > > You said that you would like to know more about the fourth > application of mindfulness, mindfulness of dhammas. > This includes naama and ruupa as objects of mindfulness under various > aspects. This summary is helpful in itself: "Nama and rupa as objects of mindfulness..." > The five khandhas are nothing else but the three paramattha dhammas > of citta, cetasika and ruupa. Or the aayatanas: naama and ruupa but > now under the aspect of dhammas that are associating so that there > are conditions for different experiences. We are so forgetful of the > dhamma appearing at this moment and therefore the Buddha taught many > different aspects of considering them. They are just naama and ruupa, > just dhammas, and this is the sober truth. It has to be hammered in > again and again. > Then there are the hindrances, akusala cetasikas and the factors of > enlightenment, sobhana cetasikas leading to enlightenment. We find it > very important not to have akusala cittas and want to have kusala > cittas, but they are just dhammas arising because of conditions. We > are inclined to take akusala as well as kusala for self, but they can > be objects of awareness so that they are seen as they really are. > The four truths: only in thoroughly known all phenomena as > conditioned naama and ruupa can the four noble truths be realised. > The truths pertain to naama and ruupa appearing at this moment. > Seeing now is dukkha, and if there had not been clinging to dhammas > there would be no birth and we would not see now. The ceasing of > dukkha, the goal of the Buddha's teaching on satipa.t.thaana, and the > way thereto, the eightfold Path, it is very suitable that this is > taught at the end of the four Applications of Mindfulness. Through > mindfulness and direct understanding of whatever dhamma appears at > this moment the eightfold Path is being developed. Those are intriguing explanations of the objects of mind as various ways of understanding nama and rupa. It is a good unifying way of seeing that level of satipatthana. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #113870 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 6:10 am Subject: the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) epsteinrob Hi Ken H, and Howard. > -------------------------------- > > RE: If one say that the dhamma *has* this characteristic, for me it leads > to the idea that it is an > entity with these fixed features and it creates a kind of self or > own-being. > -------------------------------- > > KH: Good, then you are on the right track. Dhammas do have own-being. > ---------------------------------------------- This is a point of strong disagreement. "Own-being" is indeed a kind of "entity" or "self." If you admit of a kind of "own-being" for dhammas you are working against anatta, and holding onto a kind of self for the experiencing of dhammas, which creates the template for the existence of self. It is a subtle way of sneaking self back into a selfless world. There is a point below which seems to be the sticking point. You seem to think that unless dhammas have "own-being" they are not real. Those two things have nothing to do with each other. The fleeting existence of dhammas has been described in commentary as insubstantial and basically worthless. They have momentary existence but no meaning or stature, only a momentary function as they arise and fall away. There is no necessity for svabhava or own-being in this equation, any more than there is any need for a "self" in order for the kandhas to perform all their mechanical functions. The ordinary person confuses self with the functions of the kandhas and cannot imagine a world where perception and consciousness arise with no "self" in charge. You are doing the same thing with svabhava. You cannot imagine a dhamma arising that is real without own-being somehow holding the operation together like glue, but there is no need for an essence to dhammas in order for them to function. They merely arise as part of the mechanical operation of conditions and they have nothing "inside" them, only a particular way of behaving. Until you see the dhammas as naked and empty and "merely" performing their functions according to conditions you will be stuck with a subtle sense of self assigned to dhammas, even though you say you believe thoroughly in anatta. I would invite you to examine this more closely. Namas are the dhammas that are closer to our sense of self-hood and if you assign svabhava to namas you are very very close to saying that in fact we actually have a self, that there is an essential identity to consciousness and that there is a personal element to perception and thought. It is a dangerous place to stand where self may creep into the idea of the namas that are most intimate. I personally think it is important to see those namas as absolutely empty, as arising and falling without even a trace of a personal element, otherwise you can be sure that the sense of "self" will creep back into the equation, [as svabhava, tathagatagharba or some other substitute for self,] and lifetimes of accumulation of lesser panna will be thrown out the window instead of developing to higher clarity. What Howard comments below is exactly right on this subject: = = = = = = = = = = = > Whatever is contingent may have being but surely cannot have separate > or "own" being. And what is the fictional "self" of anything supposed to be > if not separate, own, and independent being and identity? And your comment below this is, in my opinion, on dangerous ground. > --------------------------------------------- > > KH: If you insist you can say they have "self in the sense of own > being." Just don't say they have self in the sense of atta. > ------------------------------------------------------- If you say that dhammas have "self in the sense of own-being," but not in the sense of atta, you are in very slippery territory. Whatever excuse you may have for slipping any sense of independent self back into the equation, it is going to cost you the panna of right understanding. *Any* sense of independent self takes the dhamma out of the flow of pure conditionality and allows a sense of self to take control of the operation, and then you are back into the delusional realm of samsara, and all the excuses for why self is supposed to exist, with both feet. That's why it's so hard to get out of samsara, Ken. There's always an excuse to put self back in, even after you have gotten it out. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113871 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 6:19 am Subject: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) epsteinrob Hi Ken. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------------- > >> RE: I would highly recommend the recent post by Ken O. where he quotes > from the Path > of Discrimination on the characteristics that form the three marks. I > found it a > great explanation that is well detailed and highly illuminating on this > topic we > have been struggling over. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > KH: I agree, the quote seems to be precisely on the point we have been > discussing: > > > "But here the following difference should be understood; impermanence > and the characteristic of impermanence, pain and the characteristic of pain, no self and characteristic of no self." > > > Unfortunately, the explanation that followed went over my head. What > did you make of it? In my eternal inability to keep track of posts, I lost my place and I am having some trouble finding this good Ken O. post again. If by chance you can give me the # of this post, I will go back to it and give you my take on the explanation of the characteristics. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #113872 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 6:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) ptaus1 Hi Sarah, > S: Yes, sati is awareness and sampajanna is panna or right understanding (samma ditthi). Awareness is aware and right understanding understands. There can be awareness without understanding, such as at moments of kindness or generosity, but there cannot be any right understanding without awareness. Both are path factors that have to be developed. Only right understanding can know the characteristic of awareness and the characteristic of understanding when they are experienced. pt: Interesting that sati translates as awareness and panna as understanding. So far, awareness often seemed like a synonym for both to me. If saying that sati is awareness, then it would be awareness of what exactly? Perhaps the answer relates to the other bit you mentioned: > S: So gradually, panna (right understanding) can know the difference between awareness of what is experienced vs attachment which would like it another way or which clings to it. pt: So if sati is awareness of what is experienced, what does that mean exactly? Awareness that I'm currently washing dishes? That seems like thinking, not sati. Awareness of kusala vs. akusala - that seems like understanding, not sati. Etc. I guess I'm trying to figure out what's the difference between sati and panna. Thanks. Best wishes pt #113873 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 6:55 am Subject: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) epsteinrob Hi Howard, and Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 3/4/2011 10:16:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ---- > <. . .> > > > KH: Dhammas do have own-being. > > > > > > H: Whatever is contingent may have being but surely cannot have separate > or "own" being. > ---- > > KH: Why not? The contingent nature of a dhamma prevents it from being > non-contingent: it doesn't prevent it from being separate! > ------------------------------------------------ > When I speak of 'separate', I mean "independent" and "standing on its > own". And what of having "own being". what depends on other conditions is > not self-owning. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------ > > H: And what is the fictional "self" of anything supposed to be if not > separate, own, and independent being and identity? > ------------------------------ > > KH: Separate does not necessarily mean self. Namas and rupas are separate > realities *and* they are not self. > -------------------------------------------------- > Again, by 'separate' I mean more than distinguishable. I mean > "existing on its own as an independent entity". > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > Similarly, "own" does not necessarily mean self. Every dhamma has its own > being (sabhava) *and* is not self. > -------------------------------------------------- > Every dhamma is a quality or function, but nothing about it is "own," > for it is entirely dependent even for its very existence. > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > However, "independent" (in the sense of independently arisen) *would* mean > self. We can agree on that. :-) > -------------------------------------------------- > Yes, we can. > ------------------------------------------------- I thought it would be useful to look at svabhava, or own-being, in a little more detail. Here is what is said about it in wikipedia: "In Theravādin literature In the Pāli canon, "sabhāva" is absent from what are generally considered to be the earliest texts[8] and, when found in later texts (e.g., the paracanonical Milindapaha), it generically refers to state (of mind), character or truth.[9] "In the post-canonical Abhidhamma literature, sabhāva is used to distinguish an irreducible, dependent, momentary phenomenon (dhamma) from a conventionally constructed object. Thus, a collection of visual and tactile phenomena might be mentally constructed into what is conventionally referred to as a "table"; but, beyond its constituent elements, a construct such as "table" lacks intrinsic existence (sabhāva)." So it seems that in Abhidhamma, svabhava has been used to distinguish the concept, eg, "table," that does not have any real existence, from the dhammas that are actually occurring, which do have existence, albeit momentary existence, and thus have some form of being or "svabhava." However, I consider it a difficult concept as used that way, when the later use of the term is assigned the quality not just of true or real "being" but "own-being," and thus suggests that the being of the momentary dhamma is somehow independent. It is the central tenet of Theravada and Abhidhamma that every single dhamma is entirely dependent on conditions, and not just dependent on conditions, but does *not* have an independent being or nature apart from those conditions. It seems that in pre-Abhidhamma Theravada svabhava or sabhava did not have the implication of "own-being," but only of "truthful" or "real" existence, and that the sense of the dhamma having an essence or self-nature developed later as the dhamma was more greatly reified into an independent entity. It is this dangerous tendency to create an independent entity out of the dhamma that I am wary of and why I am suspicious of this rendering of svabhava. I note that in the Access to Insight glossary where sabhava-dhamma is mentioned it does not have this implication as "own-being," but instead defines the sabhava of dhammas as follows: "sabhava-dhamma [sabhaava-dhamma]: Condition of nature; any phenomenon, event, property, or quality as experienced in and of itself." Here the emphasis is put on the properties or qualities of the dhamma as it is investigated with understanding, rather than assigning the dhamma an intrinsic nature or independent being, and with that definition of sabhava I have no problem. Even though the definition says that it is *experienced in and of itself* it does not suggest that the dhamma *exists* in and of itself. That is a fine line, and I think that in order to maintain the understanding of the anatta of all dhammas we cannot cross that line. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113874 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 7:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah, > > > S: Yes, sati is awareness and sampajanna is panna or right understanding (samma ditthi). Awareness is aware and right understanding understands. There can be awareness without understanding, such as at moments of kindness or generosity, but there cannot be any right understanding without awareness. Both are path factors that have to be developed. Only right understanding can know the characteristic of awareness and the characteristic of understanding when they are experienced. > > pt: Interesting that sati translates as awareness and panna as understanding. So far, awareness often seemed like a synonym for both to me. If saying that sati is awareness, then it would be awareness of what exactly? Perhaps the answer relates to the other bit you mentioned: > > > S: So gradually, panna (right understanding) can know the difference between awareness of what is experienced vs attachment which would like it another way or which clings to it. > > pt: So if sati is awareness of what is experienced, what does that mean exactly? Awareness that I'm currently washing dishes? That seems like thinking, not sati. Awareness of kusala vs. akusala - that seems like understanding, not sati. Etc. I guess I'm trying to figure out what's the difference between sati and panna. Thanks. I thought I would throw in my two cents, even though it is likely to be confused. My current understanding is that sati all by itself is raw awareness without concept, and that to see correctly and approach sati that would be in line with panna, it has to be sati-sampajanna, which is direct seeing with correct understanding of what is seen. It may be that clear seeing of "washing the dishes" would also be sati if you were aware that what you were experiencing was the concept of "washing the dishes." To the extent that this awareness broke down to hardness, texture, seeing, etc., to that extent you could also be aware of it as nama and rupa. I think when you have more direct awareness of the namas and rupas involved you are entering satipatthana. That's my confused rendering. I would also like to get the distinction between: correct awareness of concept and what panna that may include; correct awareness of namas and rupas and its pannas; and the distinction between sati with sampajanna, sati w/o sampajanna, and when it becomes satipatthana, and the role or type of panna in each of these. Hope I'm not overly confusing the issue here... Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #113875 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 7:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > to add on this topic, when I failed to kill, I dont commit to kill. Just like a > hunter who brings his arrow to shoot a deer but miss, there is no act of killing > but there is still kamma. There is kamma of ill will in the mind door though > there is no kamma in the body door. This is good - so there is still kamma, but a different kamma then if the kamma patha takes place, since there is no kamma in the body door...? That would make sense, if I understand you correctly. Less negative kamma than if the act was committed. > >I will end with a story that contradicts all of us, from 'The Autobiography of a > > > >Yogi,' about the life of Paramahansa Yogananda, a very famous figure in the > >Hindu tradition of Kriya Yoga. Yogananda was sitting with his teacher, and he > >raised his hand to swat a fly, then thought better of it and stopped. His > >teacher said "You may as well kill the fly, as the anger and intention of the > >act has already taken place, and the karma has already been created." > > KO: He is half correct. right on the ill will but not on the killing. A monk > would not encourage any violence or killing and not even in thoughts, it is > against the Buddha's teaching as show in the parable of the saw. Yes, according to what you have said above, this makes sense. I don't think the teacher was really encouraging him to kill the fly, but rather pointing out to him that he had already created kamma on the mental/intentional level. Yogananda was chastened by what his teacher said. He did not have any urge to kill the fly. But to look at the distinction, you are saying, as above, that the angry intention to kill the fly has its own kamma, but the kamma to commit the act would have another different kind of kamma, which is avoided by refraining from the act through the body-door. I agree with this, but I think there are others who consider only the intention to be kamma, and the action to only represent the intention, not have its own "body-door kamma." Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #113876 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 7:11 am Subject: Re: Questions on Samatha. epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > it is great that you read Visud, pse also read the commnetaries texts of Right > View, Mindulness and Distraction of thoughts. It can be found in access to > insight. I have previously started the study of jhanas in DSG where I put > important factors to jhanas like virtue, mindfullness and comprehending of > dhamma and explain in turn the importance of each to support the fruition of > jhanas. > > With virtue, one is calm as one is without remorse from aksuala conduct > with mindffullness, one is guarded, one is proctected against akusala cittas > With comprehension, one develops understanding of not self. This is good information. Do you happen to have any links to the commentaries in question within Access to Insight? I sometimes have a hard time finding specific texts in there. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #113877 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 8:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The application of mindfulness on dhammas. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 6-mrt-2011, om 6:39 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Those are intriguing explanations of the objects of mind as various > ways of understanding nama and rupa. It is a good unifying way of > seeing that level of satipatthana. ------- N: And this morning I heard more about the fourth application which Kh Sujin explains in a very lively way. She makes it so direct. First she quoted from the 'Dispeller of Delusion' , the commentary to the Abh book of Vibhanga, Analysis, Ch 8 about the four right efforts. Explaining the function of viriya in satipa.t.thaana: ' In the description of energy, one who effects energy, viriya.m aarabhati (iniates energy). ...aasevati bhaaveti ('cultivates, develops it). ...' Then she asked whether while listening to this passage and considering it, there is energy. It is one of the factors leading to enligthenment. This is considering the fourth application of mindfulness, understanding viriya as sa.nkhaarakkhandha, one of the khandhas. Also when considering and being aware of visible object: it appears through the eyes, not through the other sense-doors. There is no thing or person in it. There can be viriya when considering this, and when there are conditions awareness of it. Then there can be less clinging to the idea of a person or thing in visible object. Considering visible object as a paramattha dhamma is also included in the fourth application of mindfulness. ----- Nina. #113878 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 8:28 am Subject: Re: emails to Ken H ptaus1 Hi RobE, KenH, all, In case anyone is still getting the returned emails from postoffice@... (regardless of whether they are going into your spam folder or not), please let me know offlist. I've been trying to sort out the problem with Yahoo, so need to know whether the problem is now fixed or not. Thanks for your assistance. Best wishes pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: I haven't received any since that last one I told you about off list. #113879 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 12:25 am Subject: The Fire of Desire! bhikkhu5 Friends: Urging for Pleasure is a Burning Obsession! Sense-Desire is the foremost and deepest mental hindrance (Nivarana). The texts given below aim at illustrating how this obsessive and addictive urge for sensing only pleasure in the form of sights, sounds, smells, tastes and touches arise, cease, and is finally cured. The present-day dominance of the porno and entertainment industry speaks -in itself- clearly of this problems abundance among human beings today... The Blessed Buddha once said: On this occasion the Blessed One was staying at Gaya's Head, together with a thousand Bhikkhus. There the Blessed One told these Bhikkhus this: Bhikkhus, all this is burning! And what, Bhikkhus, is that All that is burning? The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and the mind is burning. All forms, sounds, smells, flavours, touches, and mental states are also burning! Whatever kind of consciousness of sense-contact is also burning! Any feeling arised caused by contact, whether pleasant, painful or neutral, that too is also burning... Burning with what? I say: Burning with the fire of lust, hate and ignorance, birth, ageing, death, sadness, disappointment, frustration, and Suffering! The Fire Sermon Samyutta Nikya. Book IV 19-20 First priority: Noticing Sense-Desire (kma-chanda) makes it fade away: Herein, Bhikkhus, when sense-desire is present in him the Bhikkhu notes: "There is sense-desire in me," and when sense-desire is absent, he notes: "There is no sense-desire in me." He also understands how any yet unarisen sense-desire arises. He understands how to leave behind any already arisen sensual desire, and he understands how left sense-desire will not ever arise again in the future. MN 10 What is the feeding cause that makes Sense-Desire arise? There are attractive and alluring features and aspects of any object... Frequently giving irrational & unwise attention to them, this is the feeding cause of the arising of unarisen sense-desire, and also the feeding cause of the increase and expansion of sense-desire, that already has arisen. SN 46:51 What is the starving cause that makes Sense-Desire cease? There are disgusting and repulsive features and aspects of any object... Frequently giving rational & wise attention to them, this is the starving cause of the non-arising of unarisen sense-desire, and the starving cause of the decrease and shrinking of sense-desire that already has arisen. SN 46:51 Which medicine cures Sense-Desire, so that it does not re-arise again? These six things leads to the gradual elimination of sense-desire: 1. Learning how to meditate on ugly and disgusting objects. 2. Frequent and intense meditation on disgusting objects. 3. Guarding the sense doors. 4. Moderation in eating. 5. Noble friendship with one who knows how to quell sense-desire. 6. Suitable conversation on the disadvantages of hedonism. Commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta <....> Absence of sense-desire is like freedom from dept: A man, having taken a loan, uses it for his business and comes to prosperity. He then thinks: "This debt is a cause of worry." He repays the loan together with the interest, and has the loan papers torn up. After that, then he needs neither send any letter to, nor bow to his creditors... And why? He is not any longer in debt to them or dependent on them in any way. Similarly a Bhikkhu thinks: "sense-desire is a cause of hindrance." He then cultivates 6 the things leading to its overcoming (# ), and removes this hindrance of sense-desire. Just as one who has freed himself of debt no longer feels fear or anxiety, when meeting his former creditors, so is one who has given up sense-desire no longer attached and bound to the object of his desire. Even seeing many divine forms, then neither passions, nor lust will ever assail or dominate him. Therefore has the Blessed One compared the elimination of sense-desire to freedom from debt. Commentary on DN 2 The Blessed Buddha once said: On this occasion the Blessed One was staying at Gaya's Head, together with a thousand Bhikkhus. There the Blessed One told these Bhikkhus this: Bhikkhus, All this is burning! And what, Bhikkhus, is that All that is burning? The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & the mind is burning. Forms, sounds, smells, flavours, touches, and mental states are also burning! Any eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mental consciousness is also burning! Any eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mental contact is also burning! Any feeling arised caused by eye, ear, nose, tongue, body or mental contact, whether pleasant, painful or neutral, that too indeed is also burning... Burning with what? I say: Burning with the fire of lust, hate and ignorance, birth, ageing, death, sadness, weeping, pain, frustration, & with desperation! <....> /II/Happiness_of_the_Flesh_and_Beyond.htm Blissful is being without passions in this world, Blissful is the overcoming of all sense-desires! Udana II, 1 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #113880 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 12:12 pm Subject: Bkk - discussions with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (1) was: Questions on Samatha. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, We had a lively discussion at the Foundation yesterday - lots of old friends visiting, including Maeve, Ann and Azita, in addition to the 'regulars'. Most of the discussion was concerned with questions about samatha and samadhi and various meditation practices, especially our friend Sangjan's 'issues'. At one point, I briefly tried to raise the points you asked me to check below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I would like to ask Sarah to check this with Kh Sujin next time. > Because often such questions as Howard asked come up. The sutta could > be an exhortation to people who could develop jhaana to continue so > that they could have lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhaana factors > of the different stages. This is an attainment higher than the > attainment of those with dry insight. ... S: In other words, did the Buddha exhort and encourage his audience to develop the jhanas in order that they might have lokuttara cittas accompanied by the jhana factors? K.Sujin stressed that the attainment of jhanas was not for everyone. Was the Buddha encouraging people without accumulations to develop jhana or just describing different kinds of enlightenment? Did he encourage Anathapindika to develop jhana? No. Even Maha Mogallana's and Sariputta's accumulations were very different. The aim of the Teachings is to help people have right understanding. Without right understanding, what is the value of the Teachings? Each word should be understood correctly, like jhana. Jhana means burning. Lokuttara jhana means the burning up of akusala completely. I suggested that the purpose is the understanding and detachment of what has arisen, regardless of whether it is jhana or any other dhamma.K.Sujin agreed - the path starts with detachment and right understanding. Metta Sarah ====== #113881 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 12:34 pm Subject: Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Dear Ken O & all, Phil will be in your 'hot' seat in the van and at Kaeng Krajan on Tuesday! I hope you can join us again sometime! I'm sure Phil will send his impressions and reflections afterwards and you'll be interested to read these, I know. I raised one of your comments in a reply to Nina about samatha and vipassana and asked her for her comment on it:-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > I understand why she thinks like that because her practise is strictly vipassana bhavana. So when there is a concept present, it is just attribute to nama and rupa. the text has both ways, as concept and as nama and rupa. I am ok with both ways. .... KS: (laugh). Can there be the delopment of samatha without understanding? S: No. KS: So do they understand what samatha is? S: If there is an understanding of dhammas, all kinds of wholesome states have to be understood without the desire or trying to have any particular dhamma arise. KS: People really do not understand what samatha is. They just know samadhi, but they don't understand the difference between kusala and akusala - samma and miccha samadhi - so they just want to develop or have samadhi without understanding. The distinction between samadhi and samatha must be understood, otherwise they will take miccha samadhi for samatha. ..... (I'd like to stress that this understanding has to be now!) If you have further comments, I can raise them too, like I do with Rob E's, Nina's or anyone else's! We all appreciate the contributions. Metta Sarah ===== #113882 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (3): Light sarahprocter... Dear Friends, A friend has a meditation practice in which the subject is light. She considers this to be the samatha practice with light as object as taught by the Buddha. The following are some of the points K.Sujin made that I found interesting. (I had previously made the point that there has to be an understanding of how light can be an object of calm at this moment in order for samatha to develop with this subject.) Without seeing light, can we just think of light? So there must be the moment of seeing and understanding that there is nothing else but light - it's the whole world (at that moment), because light is only one object. It is not known as a reality, but it must be the object of citta and when citta experiences light, light is the object. Without the understanding of citta at that moment, it is impossible to have kusala, to have wise attention or right understanding at all. It's not a matter of just concentrating on light without any understanding - it doesn't bring calmness at all. It depends on right understanding of how the view of light is to be calm. There is light now. (When there's the development of samatha), one keeps on having that image because when the mind has one object at a time, no matter whether the eyes are open or closed, there must be that object to indicate the development of calmness does not go away - with right understanding with the factors of jhana. This is not understanding the reality of light, just the concept of light which the mind keeps on - not straying from that object to dreaming of different things in a day - and there must be just one object for concentration and the development of samatha to keep on and on with kusala cittas. Jon made the comment that this is a very advanced level of samatha. Yes, this is very advanced. It depends on the development of calmness. When people talk about levels of samatha, usually they just talk about concentration or samadhi, but without any understanding. Metta Sarah ===== #113883 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 8:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Ken) - In a message dated 3/6/2011 1:55:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard, and Ken H. I thought it would be useful to look at svabhava, or own-being, in a little more detail. Here is what is said about it in wikipedia: "In Theravādin literature In the Pāli canon, "sabhāva" is absent from what are generally considered to be the earliest texts[8] and, when found in later texts (e.g., the paracanonical Milindapañha), it generically refers to state (of mind), character or truth.[9] "In the post-canonical Abhidhamma literature, sabhāva is used to distinguish an irreducible, dependent, momentary phenomenon (dhamma) from a conventionally constructed object. Thus, a collection of visual and tactile phenomena might be mentally constructed into what is conventionally referred to as a "table"; but, beyond its constituent elements, a construct such as "table" lacks intrinsic existence (sabhāva)." So it seems that in Abhidhamma, svabhava has been used to distinguish the concept, eg, "table," that does not have any real existence, from the dhammas that are actually occurring, which do have existence, albeit momentary existence, and thus have some form of being or "svabhava." However, I consider it a difficult concept as used that way, when the later use of the term is assigned the quality not just of true or real "being" but "own-being," and thus suggests that the being of the momentary dhamma is somehow independent. It is the central tenet of Theravada and Abhidhamma that every single dhamma is entirely dependent on conditions, and not just dependent on conditions, but does *not* have an independent being or nature apart from those conditions. It seems that in pre-Abhidhamma Theravada svabhava or sabhava did not have the implication of "own-being," but only of "truthful" or "real" existence, and that the sense of the dhamma having an essence or self-nature developed later as the dhamma was more greatly reified into an independent entity. It is this dangerous tendency to create an independent entity out of the dhamma that I am wary of and why I am suspicious of this rendering of svabhava. I note that in the Access to Insight glossary where sabhava-dhamma is mentioned it does not have this implication as "own-being," but instead defines the sabhava of dhammas as follows: "sabhava-dhamma [sabhaava-dhamma]: Condition of nature; any phenomenon, event, property, or quality as experienced in and of itself." Here the emphasis is put on the properties or qualities of the dhamma as it is investigated with understanding, rather than assigning the dhamma an intrinsic nature or independent being, and with that definition of sabhava I have no problem. Even though the definition says that it is *experienced in and of itself* it does not suggest that the dhamma *exists* in and of itself. That is a fine line, and I think that in order to maintain the understanding of the anatta of all dhammas we cannot cross that line. Best, Robert E. ================================== Yes, it has been my understanding that the innocent meaning of 'sabhava' as "quality" morphed into one of "own nature" and "essence" as a late development, and this development was roundly criticized in the PTSM, probably in part to ward off a general attack on Theravada by Mahayana based on this atta-oriented excursion. With metta, Howard The Aggregates are Void /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #113884 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 8:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (3): Light upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Jon) - In a message dated 3/6/2011 7:56:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Friends, A friend has a meditation practice in which the subject is light. She considers this to be the samatha practice with light as object as taught by the Buddha. The following are some of the points K.Sujin made that I found interesting. (I had previously made the point that there has to be an understanding of how light can be an object of calm at this moment in order for samatha to develop with this subject.) Without seeing light, can we just think of light? So there must be the moment of seeing and understanding that there is nothing else but light - it's the whole world (at that moment), because light is only one object. It is not known as a reality, but it must be the object of citta and when citta experiences light, light is the object. Without the understanding of citta at that moment, it is impossible to have kusala, to have wise attention or right understanding at all. It's not a matter of just concentrating on light without any understanding - it doesn't bring calmness at all. It depends on right understanding of how the view of light is to be calm. There is light now. (When there's the development of samatha), one keeps on having that image because when the mind has one object at a time, no matter whether the eyes are open or closed, there must be that object to indicate the development of calmness does not go away - with right understanding with the factors of jhana. This is not understanding the reality of light, just the concept of light which the mind keeps on - not straying from that object to dreaming of different things in a day - and there must be just one object for concentration and the development of samatha to keep on and on with kusala cittas. Jon made the comment that this is a very advanced level of samatha. Yes, this is very advanced. It depends on the development of calmness. When people talk about levels of samatha, usually they just talk about concentration or samadhi, but without any understanding. Metta =================================== For whatever help this may be, Buddhaghosa taught the following about meditation on light: [THE LIGHT KASINA] 21. Of the light kasina it is said: 'One who is learning the light kasina apprehends the sign in light in a hole in a wall, or in a keyhole, or in a window opening'. So firstly, when someone has merit, having had previ- ous practice, the sign arises in him when he sees the circle thrown on a wall or a floor by sunlight or moonlight entering through a hole in a wall, etc., or when he sees a circle thrown on the ground by sunlight or moonlight coming through a gap in the branches of a dense-leaved tree or through a gap in a hut made of closely packed branches. 22. Anyone else should use that same kind of circle of luminosity just described, developing it as 'luminosity, luminosity' or 'light, light*. If he cannot do so, he can light a lamp inside a pot, close the pot's mouth, make a hole in it and place it with the hole facing a wall. The lamplight coming out of the hole throws a circle on the wall. He should develop that [175] as 'light, light'. This lasts longer than the other kinds. 23. Here the learning sign is like the circle thrown on the wall or the ground. The counterpart sign is like a compact bright cluster of lights. The rest is as before. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113885 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 3:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bkk - discussions with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (1) was: Questions on Samatha. nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you for your reports on the Bgk discussions. Op 6-mrt-2011, om 13:12 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > The sutta could > > be an exhortation to people who could develop jhaana to continue so > > that they could have lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhaana factors > > of the different stages. This is an attainment higher than the > > attainment of those with dry insight. > ... > S: In other words, did the Buddha exhort and encourage his audience > to develop the jhanas in order that they might have lokuttara > cittas accompanied by the jhana factors? ------- N: I added in my question: an exhortation to people who could develop jhaana to continue.. Thus, not for those who had no accumulations. It is good Acharn always stresses right understanding and detachment, as the aim of the teachings. If one forgets this one may not understand the suttas. As to my question, I was thinking of sutta texts quoted here on dsg and the misunderstandings that may arise when people read suttas. ------- Nina. #113886 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 3:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samsara nilovg Dear Martin, Op 5-mrt-2011, om 4:53 heeft Martin het volgende geschreven: > Do you mean the term, samsara, mentioned only in the Commentary > (The Last days of the Buddha), or the sutta (Parinibbaanasutta), or > both? If the term only mentioned in the Commnetary but not in the > sutta, one may conclude that the Buddha did not use the term (only > in the meaning of dukkha for samsara). -------- N: The commentary elaborates the sutta words. 'this long course of birth and deaths', is this not the same as sa.msara? I do not have the Pali of the sutta text, so I do not know whether the word samsara is used. I have no time now to look that up. Nina. #113887 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 3:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Latent tendencies, Ch 4, no 5. nilovg Dear Han and friends, Ch 4, no 5. Recapitulation: The texts explain again and again that the path does not abandon defilements that are past, future and present, but that nevertheless there is development of the path and abandoning of defilements. Different texts are used which give different details in order to illustrate this. First a simile of a tree with unborn fruit is given. and later on of a tree with born fruit. But when the tree is cut down there will not be any more fruits. When the latent tendencies have been eradicated there are no more conditions for rebirth. ------------ The Dispeller of Delusion, the commentary to the Book of Analysis, Ch 8, on the four Right Efforts, continues: Thus those defilements which the path abandons are not to be called past, future or present, nor does the path fail to abandon defilements. But it is with reference to those defilements which the path abandons that of arisen evil and so on is said. And not only does the path abandon the defilements but it abandons also the clung- to aggregates which would arise because of the non-abandonment of the defilements. And this is said in detail: Through the cessation of [kamma-] formation consciousness due to the knowledge of the Stream Entry path, the mentality and materiality that would arise in the endless round of rebirths cease here, except for [the duration of] seven existences (cf. As.l 236). Thus the path emerges from the clung to and the not clung to [1]; but by way of the [three] existences, the Stream Entry path emerges from the state of woe [2], the Once Return path from part of the happy- destiny existence, the No-Return path from the happy-destiny existence [3], the Arahat path from fine-material and immaterial existence. It emerges from all kinds of existence also they say. Then how, at the moment of the path, is there development for the arising of the unarisen ? Or how for the maintenance of those that are arisen? [4] Through the occurrence of the path itself. For the path is called unarisen when it is occurring because it has not occurred previously. Those who have gone to a place not previously gone to, having experienced an object not previously experienced, give utterance thus: We have come to a place not previously gone to, we experience an object not previously experienced. And what is called occurrence is also called maintenance, thus it is correct to say that he develops for maintenance [5]. --------- This text is similar to the commentary to the Mahaasakuludaayisutta (Middle Length Sayings II, no 77). This commentary adds: " In the Cetokhilasutta (Middle Length Sayings, sutta 16) it is said as to the right efforts, in short, that he approaches calm or that he approaches the allaying of defilements. He approaches awakening, for the sake of the realisation of the Path. --------- footnotes: 1.The ruupas produced by kamma are called upadinna, clung to, and those not produced by kamma are called anupadinna, not clung to. 2. Because there will not be rebirth in an unhappy plane. 3. Because there will not be rebirth in a sensuous plane. 4. For the arising and maintenance of kusala. 5. This refers to the four right efforts, to the maintenance of kusala dhammas. -------- Pali text of Sammoha Vinodanii : Eva.m maggo ye kilese pajahati, te atiitaa vaa anaagataa vaa paccuppannaa vaati na vattabbaa, na ca maggo kilese na pajahati. Ye pana maggo kilese pajahati, te sandhaaya uppannaana.m paapakaanantiaadi vutta.m. Na kevala~nca maggo kileseyeva pajahati, kilesaana.m pana appahiinattaa ye ca uppajjeyyu.m upaadinnakakkhandhaa, tepi pajahatiyeva. Vuttampi ceta.m sotaapattimagga~naa.nena abhisa"nkhaaravi~n~naa.nassa nirodhena satta bhave .thapetvaa anamatagge sa.msaare ye uppajjeyyu.m naama~nca ruupa~nca, etthete nirujjhantiiti (cuu.lani. 6) vitthaaro. Iti maggo upaadinnaanupaadinnato vu.t.thaati. Bhavavasena pana sotaapattimaggo apaayabhavato vu.t.thaati, sakadaagaamimaggo sugatibhavekadesato, anaagaamimaggo sugatikaamabhavato, arahattamaggo ruupaaruupabhavato vu.t.thaati. Sabbabhavehi vu.t.thaatiyevaatipi vadanti. Atha maggakkha.ne katha.m anuppannaana.m uppaadaaya bhaavanaa hoti, katha.m vaa uppannaana.m .thitiyaati. Maggappavattiyaayeva. Maggo hi pavattamaano pubbe anuppannapubbattaa anuppanno naama vuccati. Anaagatapubba~nhi .thaana.m aagantvaa ananubhuutapubba.m vaa aaramma.na.m anubhavitvaa vattaaro bhavanti anaagata.t.thaana.m aagatamhaa, ananubhuuta.m aaramma.na.m anubhavaamaati. Yaa cassa pavatti, ayameva .thiti naamaati .thitiyaa bhaavetiitipi vattu.m va.t.tati. ------- Nina. #113888 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 4:05 am Subject: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Here the emphasis is put on the properties or qualities of the dhamma as > it is investigated with understanding, rather than assigning the dhamma an > intrinsic nature or independent being, and with that definition of sabhava I > have no problem. Even though the definition says that it is *experienced > in and of itself* it does not suggest that the dhamma *exists* in and of > itself. That is a fine line, and I think that in order to maintain the > understanding of the anatta of all dhammas we cannot cross that line. > > Best, > Robert E. > > ================================== > Yes, it has been my understanding that the innocent meaning of > 'sabhava' as "quality" morphed into one of "own nature" and "essence" as a > late development, and this development was roundly criticized in the PTSM, > probably in part to ward off a general attack on Theravada by Mahayana based > on this atta-oriented excursion. I appreciate your additional information on this Howard, it confirms what I was thinking when I saw the history of sabhava/svabhava and how it evolved in Mahayana as well as late Theravada. It just highlights to me most clearly that we have to understand how these terms are being utilized by a group or a movement in a particular part of history. There isn't a single term that is understood exactly the same over time, and when a certain philosophical perspective sets in, they will take the original meaning of a term and gradually bend it to conform to that philosophy. It then becomes hard to fight the new meaning, unless you have that history at hand. People can say "Well sabhava has *always* been around, it's an accepted Theravada term" - except that if we don't look into it we fail to notice that the word is the same but the meaning has evolved. So it's good to know that to the ancients the word had a specific, benign meaning that is descriptive; and that over time it was evolved by certain movements into another way of reintroducing a controlling factor or an objective essence back into the "interior" of dhammas. Most fascinating! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #113889 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 5:53 am Subject: Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta hantun1 Dear Sarah (Howard, Dieter, Nina), In another forum, I had presented two paragraphs from DN 15, Mahaanidaana Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html Name-and-form "'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?" "No, lord." "If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?" "No, lord." "If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?" "No, lord." "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness." Consciousness "'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and stress in the future be discerned? "No, lord." "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for consciousness, i.e., name-and-form. "This is the extent to which there is birth, aging, death, passing away, and re-arising. This is the extent to which there are means of designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world, i.e., name-and-form together with consciousness. --------------- On my presentation, Howard commented it as follows: "Something unpleasant and disappointing has occurred to me upon reading the first of these two paragraphs: Had I not known that the "Lord" referred to here was the Buddha, or had I known it was the Buddha but had previously read nothing of the Buddhadhamma, in reading this I would think it is Hindu teaching about a soul/spirit descending into the womb and creating the namarupa (which word the Indians traditionally used to designate a living person, a soul-and-body entity). I see no hint, taste, or suggestion here of consciousness as an impersonal function or dhamma, Instead I see the traditional Indian view of self-existent matter and of souls that can embody themselves by clothing themselves in matter. "I also find a problem with the 2nd paragraph: It purports to show how consciousness arises from the being, namarupa. But it does not do that at all! What it shows is that birth, aging, death, and dukkha have the embodiment of consciousness (i.e., the aforementioned descent into the womb) as their cause. "So, the bottom line is that I find this piece of this sutta to be extremely problematical and perhaps even spurious. (I'd be curious, BTW, to know what the DSG Abhidhammikas would reply to this.)" --------------- Han: I wrote to Howard that Bhikkhu Bodhi had explained about these in detail in his book, The Great Discourse on Causation, under the sub-heading of The Hidden Vortex starting from page 18. I added that I would not be able to type all of the comments and requested him to read the book. Meanwhile, Dieter gave Howard the link to read the book on line. After reading the book, Howard wrote to Dieter as follows: "I've downloaded that Google book and have read the relevant section involving the two passages. What BB said has not dispelled my thoughts with regard to the 2nd passage at all, but he has made a big dent in my view about the first passage. I think his comments on that were excellent, and I feel much, much better about that! Again, I thank you for pointing out that Google book to me. :-)" --------------- Han: I also tried to look for the book on line. What I could get was the book in the format which I could not download or copy a portion of it. http://books.google.co.th/books?id=kMDd3dQgqXsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=bhikkhu+B\ odhi+the+great+discourse&source=bl&ots=h15p61XDHD&sig=iG3woHiIuf-lbx4-tV4Pw6ey7K\ Q&hl=en&ei=rOtzTf2CDIjqrAeUnbzSCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC\ YQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false --------------- Han: As mentioned by Howard that he would like to know what the DSG Abhidhammikas would reply to this, you may wish to share if you have some thoughts on this issue. Kind regards, Han #113890 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 6:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 7-mrt-2011, om 5:05 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > It then becomes hard to fight the new meaning, unless you have that > history at hand. People can say "Well sabhava has *always* been > around, it's an accepted Theravada term" - except that if we don't > look into it we fail to notice that the word is the same but the > meaning has evolved. So it's good to know that to the ancients the > word had a specific, benign meaning that is descriptive; and that > over time it was evolved by certain movements into another way of > reintroducing a controlling factor or an objective essence back > into the "interior" of dhammas. ------- N: I tend to have another approach. I appreciate the direct way Kh Sujin approaches all these different subjects. Instead of thinking of development in history, I believe that in being aware of this characteristic or that characteristic appearing now, it will be clear what sabhava means. Visible object is different from sound, they appear through different doorways. It seems that they appear together, but each citta can experience only one object. Visible object has a characteristic different from sound. It does not matter how you call it, sabhava or not, but the true nature of each reality can be penetrated through awareness and right understanding. ---------- Nina. #113891 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 7:03 am Subject: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) kenhowardau Hi Robert E and Howard, Let's be honest: no one at DSG has ever said that dhammas arose independently. The only dispute the only real, on-going dispute at DSG - has been over whether or not dependently arisen dhammas were ultimately real. If dependently arisen dhammas were *not* ultimately real then the only dhamma that *was* ultimately real would be nibbana. Nibbana would be what we are looking at now, and the secret to enlightenment would be simply to "look more closely." In that scenario, anatta would lose all relevance. At best it would be (as Ven Thanissaro claims it is) a mere technique for making looking less stressful. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Howard. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > Here the emphasis is put on the properties or qualities of the dhamma as > > it is investigated with understanding, rather than assigning the dhamma an > > intrinsic nature or independent being, and with that definition of sabhava I > > have no problem. Even though the definition says that it is *experienced > > in and of itself* it does not suggest that the dhamma *exists* in and of > > itself. That is a fine line, and I think that in order to maintain the > > understanding of the anatta of all dhammas we cannot cross that line. > > > > Best, > > Robert E. > > > > ================================== > > Yes, it has been my understanding that the innocent meaning of > > 'sabhava' as "quality" morphed into one of "own nature" and "essence" as a > > late development, and this development was roundly criticized in the PTSM, > > probably in part to ward off a general attack on Theravada by Mahayana based > > on this atta-oriented excursion. > > I appreciate your additional information on this Howard, it confirms what I was thinking when I saw the history of sabhava/svabhava and how it evolved in Mahayana as well as late Theravada. > > #113892 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 8:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta nilovg Dear Han, Yes, I have the hardcover of the Commentary. I have no problem with this sutta. Op 7-mrt-2011, om 6:53 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Name-and-form > "'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' > Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from > consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If > consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would > name-and-form take shape in the womb?" ------- N: Name and form: naama stands here for the cetasikas, accompanying the rebirth-consciousness. Form: the ruupa produced by kamma at the first moment of life. Descent into the womb is just a way of describing birth by way of the womb, such as humans, animals. For them at the first moment of life kamma produces ruupa. This has nothing to do with a soul. The commentary explains in which ways vi~n~naa.na is a condition for naama and ruupa: conascence, mutuality, etc. Also during life citta is a condition for cetasikas and ruupa in different ways. "As appropriate" the commentary states. ------ > Text: Consciousness > "'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' > Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from > name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If > consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a > coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and > stress in the future be discerned? -------- N: Rebirth-consciousness could not arise "without the support of the other three mental aggregates and the heartbase". The subco states in how many ways: conascence, mutuality, support, kamma-resultant etc. This is very clear. The ruupa which is the physical base for the rebirth-consciousness is called the heartbase. It does not matter how it is called, but a physical base is necessary. When we remember that conascent citta and cetasikas condiiton each other mutually, there is no problem. I think when people read the Dependent Origination and they see: vi~n~naa.na conditions naama and ruupa, they may not realise that naaama stands here for the accompanying cetasikas. They may not know when there is conascence condition. It is the same for contact and feeling: contact conditions feeling by conascent condition and other conditions which are conascent. Howard, no reason for disappointment! -------- Nina. #113893 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 8:46 am Subject: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics sarahprocter... Dear Friends, It was wonderful to meet Phil live this morning for breakfast. Han and I had started eating and chatting early, but the highlight was when Phil arrived and we all started discussing dhamma topics together, in between 'getting to know each other' all over again. Phil is as witty and enthusiastic in person as he is in his writing and I'm glad to report that Han was in 'top form' with a healthy appetite and a lot of mental and physical strength. He was wearing his UN card round his neck as a disguise - his family thought the UN was where he was heading for a meeting! Jon will upload a pic or two in due course. Jottings that come to mind which I hope Han (and Phil in due course)will help 'fill in'. 1. Worries and the present moment - how the Dhamma helps to see the real cause of our difficulties. Is this just for those who are 'advanced'? 2. Mahanidana Sutta and commentary - I see Han has just posted the passage in qu and Howard's comments. I'll reply to this in more detail in due course. Vinnana refers to patisandhi citta in particular here (and subsequent vipaka cittas). 3. Sila, sila, sila... during this discussion Phil arrived. More on present moment and paramatthas, past accumulations likely to resurface. Sila as a shelter, sila as no 1. Satipatthana not enough of a protection. Phil's appreciation of the Sayadaws, such as U Yanissaro's(?) strong language on the danger of defilements, with Abhidhamma interspersed. And yet, with all the exposure to Buddhism, Han only became really interested in the Dhamma at age 70 with the stress on the paramis. 4. Phil's letter to his father - a very well-written and moving letter which I've encouraged him to share here with everyone. Buddhism for anyone - not a label. Daily life, but does it depend on the field? For example, if someone is involved in a criminal lifestyle or nefarious pursuits, can the Dhamma be appreciated? Rebirths and the precious human life opportunities.Is satipatthana really enough of a protection? Han's good reminders that we can never force anyone to believe anything. We just share and give exposure. Before the age of 70, his only 'religion' was Newtonian science! Even Sariputta's mother remained a non-believer until Sariputta was dying. 5. DSG and new members -can we help more? Is stressing "seeing now" really of any benefit or encouragement to them? Sharing Buddhism in a meaningful way. Irritations, disagreements and so on. 6. The Dhamma and changing behaviour. Phil's previous road-rage - is the change due to ageing or the Dhamma or various conditions? 7. D.O, Mogook Sayadaw (?) and the turning of the wheel. A simplistic approach that is often understood - past causes leading to present results leading to future causes and results. Conditions are much more complex. 8. 5 fold and 8 fold path. Lokuttara cittas - 8 fold path, object is nibbana. 5 fold path doesn't include the virati cetasikas (right speech, action and livelihood) and yet 6 factors can arise together in the mundane path. The object must be the same. 9. Meaning of nama in different contexts. Only in D.O. is it referring to just 3 khandhas, not vinnana. In other contexts, nama refers to 4 mental khandhas. 10. Kamma and vipaka as understood conventionally. Han's example of changing currency and poor timing as a result of bad kamma and then the dentist story which he may elaborate on. Hmmm... Phil's stress on both the conventional and paramattha when talking about the worldly conditions. If one has a headache and is about to lash out, knowing one's capacity. A good point about pain and pleasurable feeling as worldly conditions as more obviously indicating different kinds of vipaka. Other kinds of gain and loss, such as the gain or loss of possessions, may just be a matter of thinking with lobha or dosa. 11. Death and chanting, sila again at such times. 12. Han & Phil's 'conspiracy' that paramatthas only are OK for people like Jon who are 'on track' or for Sarah who is 'present'!!! Ha, ha.....:-)) ***** Lots of fun and to ensure that Phil doesn't go 'off-track' in Bangkok, Sukin arrived in time to escort him to meet and have another discussion with Rob K and other dhamma friends. And then tomorrow morning he'll be whisked off into the countryside for more lively discussions, so by the time he flies back to Japan, paramatthas only may be OK for him too:-)) (We won't have internet connection for these couple of days.) Metta Sarah ===== #113894 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Mar 6, 2011 10:58 pm Subject: The 11 Advantages! bhikkhu5 Friends: The 11 Advantages of Infinite Friendliness: When one cultivates regular meditation on Infinite Friendliness (Mett ), then these 11 advantages are produced, can be expected and observed: 1: One sleeps in comfort. 2: One wakes in comfort. 3: One dreams no evil dreams. 4: One is dear to human beings. 5: One is dear to non-human beings. 6: Deities guard and protect one. 7: Fire, poison and weapons cannot affect one. 8: One's mind is easily concentrated. 9: The expression of one's face is serene. 10: One dies unconfused and without panic. 11: If one penetrates no higher, then one is reborn in the Brahma-world. These 11 advantages emerge & remain insofar as goodwill is maintained! Vism I 312-314, AN V 342 RADIATING PEACE The Noble Friend, who dwells in friendly amity, Who has faith in the Teaching of the Buddhas, Will reach the place of Peace, the mode of ease, The stilling of all formation, The calming of all construction, Purest Happiness itself ... Dhammapada Illustration 368 Background Story 368-376 The blessed Buddha said: With good-will for the entire cosmos, Cultivate a limitless heart and mind: Beaming above, below, and all around, Unobstructed, without trace of hostility. Sutta Nipata I, 8 May all creatures, all breathing and living things, All beings, one and all, without any exception, Experience the good fortune of pure Happiness! May they not fall into any harm... :-) Anguttara Nikaya II, 72 <....> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #113895 From: "colette" Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 8:35 am Subject: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) ksheri3 Hi Ken, Isn't searching for an INDEPENDENTLY ARISING DHARMA the same thing as searching for DARK MATTER or even DARK ENERGY in the universe? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Robert E and Howard, > > Let's be honest: no one at DSG has ever said that dhammas arose independently. The only dispute the only real, on-going dispute at DSG - has been over whether or not dependently arisen dhammas were ultimately real. > > If dependently arisen dhammas were *not* ultimately real then the only dhamma that *was* ultimately real would be nibbana. Nibbana would be what we are looking at now, and the secret to enlightenment would be simply to "look more closely." > > In that scenario, anatta would lose all relevance. At best it would be (as Ven Thanissaro claims it is) a mere technique for making looking less stressful. <...> #113896 From: "colette" Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 8:41 am Subject: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) ksheri3 Hi Nina, IF "Visible object is different > from sound, they appear through different doorways." THEN why do they make "SURROUND SOUND SYSTEMS" that have speakers in the chairs that people sit in so that the people can feel the vibrations of the sound through their BODY-CONSCIOUSNESS (tactile consciousness), or even the way a PROFOUNDLY DEAF PERSON "hears" or "listens"? toodles, colette #113897 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 8:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom and other wholesome qualities accumulated? part 1. nilovg Dear Rob M, Op 4-mrt-2011, om 22:55 heeft robmoult het volgende geschreven: > Natural Decisive Support describes a relationship between dhammas. > It is a property. It does not 'accumulate', but it can be a strong > relationship or a weak relationship.... Why did anger arise? Natural decisive support was a conditioning factor causing anger to arise. Why did generosity arise? Natural decisive support was a conditioning factor causing generosity to arise. ------ N: As you rightly indicate, Natural Decisive Support condition is very wide, many aspects are contained in it. When kamma produces result there is not only kamma-condiiton but also Natural Decisive Support condition, otherwise it could not produce result at a particular time. You write: 'Why did anger arise? Natural decisive support was a conditioning factor causing anger to arise". This is very true. The condition itself does not accumulate, but in this case it operates because there is accumulation of anger from one citta to the next one and from life to life. The anger that formerly arose falls away, but it is carried on in the form of the latent tendency of dosa lying dormant in each citta. And all the time there are new accumulations added on. It is not static. New accumulations of kusala and of akusala occur at the moments of javana. The javana cittas arise and then fall away and the accumulated tendencies go on from one citta to the next citta. Accumulation is a difficult subject. I found the study of the latent tendencies, anusayas, has helped me to understand that tendencies go on from one citta to the next citta. I translated a Thai study which deals with the Yamaka and commentary and other commentaries. The latent tendencies do not arise, they lie dormant, but, when there is an opportunity they condition the arising of akusala citta. The latent tendencies which are akusala dhammas lie dormant also in kusala citta and avyakata citta (citta that is vipaaka or kiriya). This shows that they go on from one citta to the next citta. At the moment of kusala citta they do not condition the arising of akusala citta, but, they are still dormant. There is no gap. They also go on to the rebirth-consciousness. I quote as follows, and note the expression : 'persist in the succession of cittas': "The sources which give the reason for this conclusion: In the commentary to the Anusaya Yamaka, in the section on the Spheres of Existence (dhtu vra) we read: As to the words, how many latent tendencies lie dormant, this means how many latent tendencies having persisted in the succession of cittas lie dormant. As to the words, how many latent tendencies do not lie dormant, this means, how many latent tendencies do not persist in the succession of cittas and do not lie dormant? One should distinguish between how many latent tendencies lie dormant and how many latent tendencies do not lie dormant. It has been said with regard to the ordinary people (putthujjana, non ariyan) that seven latent tendencies are lying dormant. " Also the commentary to the Visuddhimagga, the tika which is the paramattha ma~njusaa, explains about the latent tendencies as akusala dhammas that do not arise but that are lying dormant and follow the continuous succession of cittas. It explains that when there is an appropriate condition they cause the arising of akusala citta. We read: The dhammas that are called latent tendencies are lying dormant; they follow the continuous succession of cittas and they cannot yet be eradicated. It is explained that when they come upon an appropriate condition they arise. It is true that the defilements that cannot be eradicated yet must arise when there is a cause for this, they are as it were dormant in the continuous succession of cittas." ------- Nina. #113898 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 8:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom and other wholesome qualities accumulated? part 2. nilovg Dear Rob M, Continuation on accumulation. Also wholesome tendencies are accumulated from moment to moment. You gave the example of generosity in the past that conditions generosity today. Very true, we can prove this. The Knowledge of beings biases and underlying tendencies is mentioned in the Path of Discrimination , Pa.tisambhidmagga of the Khuddaka Nikya, in the Mtika (Table of Contents), among the seventythree kinds of knowledge. These latent tendencies are further explained in its Commentary, the Saddhammappaksin under the Explanation (Niddesa) of Knowledge of beings biasses and underlying tendencies (saynusaya .na). As to the term saya, bias, they explain this as dependence, abode or support on which beings depend. This term denotes the disposition to wrong view or to right view that has been accumulated. It denotes the disposition to all that is unwholesome, such as clinging to sense objects, or the disposition to all that is good, such as renunciation that has been accumulated. The defilements that lie persisting in beings continuous stream of cittas are called anusaya, latent tendencies. This term denotes the defilements such as clinging to sense objects that is strong. The terms aasaya and anusaya are joined together as aasayaanusaya: biases and latent tendencies. It has become one word, which is actually a twin compound, formed by two words. The words disposition (adhimutti) and conduct (carita) are in the text of the Path of Discriminationcombined with the expression aasayaanusaya: biases and latent tendencies. The word anusaya is used because the defilements lie dormant and persist, they lie dormant in the succession of beings cittas. Thus aasaya denotes both wholesome and unwholesome dispositions that are accumulated and anusaaya denotes the latent tendency to certain akusala dhammas that are accumulated." End quote. By understanding more the latent tendencies that lie dormant in the succession of cittas, it also becomes clearer that there are wholesome tendencies accumulated in the succession of cittas. ------- Nina. #113899 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 9:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics nilovg Dear Sarah, Han and Phil, You must have had a wonderful time with dhamma discussions, I am sure. I enjoyed reading about it. I hope Han (the dentist?) and Phil will tell us more about it. Nina. Op 7-mrt-2011, om 9:46 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Lots of fun and to ensure that Phil doesn't go 'off-track' in > Bangkok, Sukin arrived in time to escort him to meet and have > another discussion with Rob K and other dhamma friends. #113900 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 9:31 am Subject: Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 4, no 5. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your recapitulation. Recapitulation: The texts explain again and again that the path does not abandon defilements that are past, future and present, but that nevertheless there is development of the path and abandoning of defilements. Different texts are used which give different details in order to illustrate this. First a simile of a tree with unborn fruit is given. and later on of a tree with born fruit. But when the tree is cut down there will not be any more fruits. When the latent tendencies have been eradicated there are no more conditions for rebirth. ------------ Thank you also for presenting the paragraphs Nos.1462 to 1465 of The “Dispeller of Delusion”, the commentary to the “Book of Analysis”, Ch 8, on the four Right Efforts. They are all clear. No questions on that. ------------- Your reference to MN 77 Mahaasakuludaayisutta and MN 16 Cetokhilasutta are also very useful. Although I do not have the Co. of these two suttas, I am now studying the main text of the suttas. -------------- Your footnotes are also useful. I did not know before that the ruupas produced by kamma are called upadinna, clung to, and those not produced by kamma are called anupadinna, not clung to. Now, I know. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #113901 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 9:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >> I understand why she thinks like that because her practise is strictly >>vipassana bhavana. So when there is a concept present, it is just attribute to > >>nama and rupa. the text has both ways, as concept and as nama and rupa. I am > >>ok with both ways. >> >.... >KS: (laugh). Can there be the delopment of samatha without understanding? > >S: No. KO: I never disgree with that because in the texts and suttas, there must be clear comprehension of dhamma for development of samantha I am saying Jon statement samantha is just development of kusala cittas is not right because samantha includes clear comprehension of dhamma which is panna. > >KS: So do they understand what samatha is? > >S: If there is an understanding of dhammas, all kinds of wholesome states have >to be understood without the desire or trying to have any particular dhamma >arise. > >KS: People really do not understand what samatha is. They just know samadhi, but > >they don't understand the difference between kusala and akusala - samma and >miccha samadhi - so they just want to develop or have samadhi without >understanding. The distinction between samadhi and samatha must be understood, >otherwise they will take miccha samadhi for samatha. >..... >(I'd like to stress that this understanding has to be now!) > >If you have further comments, I can raise them too, like I do with Rob E's, >Nina's or anyone else's! We all appreciate the contributions. > KO: It does not matter in the difference between samantha and samadhi because samantha is path, samadhi is concentration. Samadhi is part of samantha. Samadhi is not all of samantha as samantha includes virtue, sati, panna hmm by the way, you have yet show me the text, there is no need to tell me about AS intepretation because I know her intepretation very well and how she come to her conclusion on satipatthana. If I dont, I won't have asked you to produce me the text that concept cannot be used as development of the path except during vipassana level. I have shown you the text and could again show you other text, basing on the text but not on any person interpretation on concepts can be used for development. Ken O #113902 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 4, no 5. nilovg Dear Han, Op 7-mrt-2011, om 10:31 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Your reference to MN 77 Mahaasakuludaayisutta and MN 16 > Cetokhilasutta are also very useful. Although I do not have the Co. > of these two suttas, I am now studying the main text of the suttas. ------ N: I find the texts rather difficult like: 'the Once Return path from part of the happy- destiny existence'. This is clear: the No-Return path from the happy- destiny existence , no more rebirth in sensuous (kaama) planes. Thus, perhaps, some once returners can have rebirth in a kaama plane, and some in a higher plane? ------ Nina. #113903 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] practice -> improvement of the skill nilovg Dear Alex, Op 28-feb-2011, om 14:57 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > IMHO the only way to become better at something is to set up causes > for improvement, ie: practice, practice, practice. > > It is like any skill. To get better at it, one must practice. ------- N:Without pariyatti there cannot be patipatti. Pariyatti is actually right understanding of the present reality, be it kusala, akusala, pleasant or unpleasant. One cannot just start practising without the foundation which is correct understanding of what this practice is and what the objects are that the citta with understanding experiences on the level of patipatti. ------ Nina. #113904 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:38 am Subject: Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Sarah, Jon, Phil, Sukin, Nina and others, I will fill in one topic at a time. 10. Kamma and vipaka as understood conventionally. Han's example of changing currency and poor timing as a result of bad kamma and then the dentist story which he may elaborate on. Hmmm... Han: I said that when kusala kamma is producing results, one cannot do wrong, one will have right decisions and right actions. That was what had happened to me up to 1996 when I was 70 years. By that time, my past kusala kamma must have exhausted, and my past bad akusala began to ripen. I had many illnesses at the same time, and I made wrong decisions. (1) Financially, I made wrong decision, and I attribute my wrong decision to the result of my past akusala kamma. When there was financial crisis in Thailand in 1997, the value of Thai baht was going down. When it reached about 37 baht a dollar, the Prime Minister Chavalit resigned. I thought after his resignation, the value of Thai baht would go up, and I was soon to make my final payment for my condominium, which was more than 2 million bahts. Therefore I changed my dollars to Thai bahts while it was 37 baht a dollar, thinking that I would get less baht if I waited and if the value of Thai baht went up. But on the day, I had to make my final payment on 6 January 1998, the exchange rate was 50 baht a dollar. Thus, if I had waited it would have been all right. But because I had changed the money about a week earlier, I lost about half a million bahts. This wrong decision to change the money ahead, I thought, was the result of my bad kamma, which was urging me to make the wrong decision. --------------- (2) On 19 August 1996, I was admitted to the hospital for acute abdomen. On x-ray examinations, the cause of abdominal pain was found to be intestinal obstruction due to paralysis of small intestines. I was treated conservatively, nothing by mouth except medicines. I was discharged after about a week. After the discharge from the hospital, the small intestines remained weak and I had to be very careful with my diet. I could not eat anything undigestable. I had frequent abdominal pains and had to take milk of magnesia regularly, and enema when necessary. In this way, I suffered for more than four years. Then, in December 2000, I reported to the hospital for dental problem. I had toothache and gum inflammation quite often during those years, but I treated myself with antibiotic and lozenges, and I never bothered to see a Dentist. I had completely ignored my dental health. I had taken my family to the Dentist for dental treatment many times for more than the past ten years, but I never consulted with him for myself. But this time, I wanted to see him for toothache, which I thought was due to the old dental cavities. He was fully booked for more than one month. But I went to the hospital to see any Dentist who was available. Now, our Dentist who treated my family all these years, took an average of half an hour for each patient, and he came out just for about 2-3 minutes to tell the Cashier what he had done, so that the Cashier could know how much to charge the patient. He then went back to his room for another patient. So one could see him in the hallway only for 2-3 minutes, every half an hour or so, if one went without prior appointment. On that day, when I went to the hospital, as I walked into the hallway, I saw our Dentist coming out of his room towards the Cashier. It could not have been a better timing! I told him I had come without an appointment. He told me to wait in a vacant room, and he would see me later. After about an hour, our Dentist saw me. He found that my lower left third molar had grown longer than other teeth, and the food got stuck between it and the second molar, which caused perennial gum infection. He extracted the third molar. Since then, I could chew food better, no more gum infections, and the small intestines had also recovered to their normal tone and strength. What happened was, as there was toothache or gum infection very often, I did not chew the food properly during those years. And I could chew only with the left side teeth. I did not chew with the right side teeth since I was young due to many tooth cavities. I had even lost the sensations on the right side. When I did not chew the food properly, when I was younger, it was all right; my gastric juice could digest the food. As I grew older, the gastric juice became weak and could not digest the food that was not properly chewed. So the undigested food was passed onto the small intestines, and the small intestines could not propel the undigested food onwards, causing intestinal obstruction and severe abdominal pains. Now that I could chew properly, the gastric digestion became normal, and the passage of food along the small intestines also became normal, and no more intestinal obstruction, and no more abdominal pains. If I had consulted with our Dentist earlier, I would not have to suffer with abdominal pains for more than four years. But my bad kamma was preventing me from seeing our Dentist. Only after more than four years, my good kamma again had the chance to ripen. I had done meritorious deeds (meditation, reading Dhamma books, listening to Dhamma tapes, etc.) since 1996, and that good kamma must have the chance to ripen again. And I think that good kamma had urged me to see our Dentist. For any individual, good kamma and bad kamma are following him like a shadow, and when there are conditions for the good kamma to ripen it will produce good effects, and when there are conditions for the bad kamma to ripen it will produce bad effects. If not for kamma, how could I answer the following questions. After many years of neglect, why did I want to see our Dentist this time? Why did I go to the hospital without a prior appointment? Why must I meet with our Dentist at the right moment in the hallway? Some may say that these were all coincidence. But I attribute it to the effects of kamma. ------------------ Kind regards, Han #113905 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 11:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 4, no 5. hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: I find the texts rather difficult like: 'the Once Return path from part of the happy-destiny existence'. This is clear: the No-Return path from the happy-destiny existence, no more rebirth in sensuous (kaama) planes. Thus, perhaps, some once returners can have rebirth in a kaama plane, and some in a higher plane? Han: Yes, it sounds like that. Maybe, some once-returners may have attained at least First Jhaana. I do not have the Burmese translation with me. I have asked my friends in Yangon whether the Burmese translation is available. If I find something I will let you know. Respectfully, Han #113906 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 11:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 4, no 5. ashkenn2k Dear Nina could you describe what is your question again thanks > >From: Nina van Gorkom >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Monday, 7 March 2011 18:22:50 >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 4, no 5. > > >Dear Han, >Op 7-mrt-2011, om 10:31 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > >> Your reference to MN 77 Mahaasakuludaayisutta and MN 16 >> Cetokhilasutta are also very useful. Although I do not have the Co. >> of these two suttas, I am now studying the main text of the suttas. >------ >N: I find the texts rather difficult like: 'the Once Return path from >part of the happy- >destiny existence'. This is clear: the No-Return path from the happy- >destiny >existence , no more rebirth in sensuous (kaama) planes. >Thus, perhaps, some once returners can have rebirth in a kaama plane, >and some in a higher plane? >------ >Nina. > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > #113907 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 8:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Han) - In a message dated 3/7/2011 3:17:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Text: Consciousness > "'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' > Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from > name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If > consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a > coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and > stress in the future be discerned? -------- N: Rebirth-consciousness could not arise "without the support of the other three mental aggregates and the heartbase". The subco states in how many ways: conascence, mutuality, support, kamma-resultant etc. This is very clear. The ruupa which is the physical base for the rebirth-consciousness is called the heartbase. It does not matter how it is called, but a physical base is necessary. When we remember that conascent citta and cetasikas condiiton each other mutually, there is no problem. ================================= Nina, I'm sorry, but your explanation of the passage doesn't work, it seems to me. As I had written on that other list with regard to the 2nd passage: "It purports to show how consciousness arises from ... namarupa. But it does not do that at all! What it shows is that birth, aging, death, and dukkha have the embodiment of consciousness (i.e., the aforementioned descent into the womb) as their cause." Mind you, I'm not doubting in the slightest that vi~n~nana depends on namarupa. I'm just saying that this does not actually get addressed in that 2nd passage. Perhaps something got deleted from the sutta over time, but as it stands, that passage discusses (exactly) the origination of "birth, aging, death, and stress in the future" due to the descent of consciousness into the womb. It does not discuss the conditionality relation namarupa --> vi~n~nana. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113908 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 2:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta hantun1 Dear Howard and Nina, If I copy the translation of this particular passage translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, would it make any difference? Or, would it still be the same? Consciousness (translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi) 22. "It was said: 'With mentality-materiality as condition there is consciousness.' How that is so, Aananda, should be understood in this way: If consciousness were not to gain a footing in mentality-materiality, would an origination of the mass of suffering, of future birth, aging, and death, be discerned?" "Certainly not, venerable sir." "Therefore, Aananda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for consciousness, namely mentality-materiality. "It is to this extent, Aananda, that one can be born, age, and die, pass away and re-arise, to this extent that there is a pathway for designation, to this extent that there is a pathway for language, to this extent that there is a pathway for description, to this extent that there is a sphere for wisdom, to this extent that the round turns for describing this state of being, that is, when there is mentality-materiality together with consciousness." ---------- Kind regards, Han #113909 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 9:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta upasaka_howard Hi, Han - In a message dated 3/7/2011 9:14:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hantun1@... writes: Dear Howard and Nina, If I copy the translation of this particular passage translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, would it make any difference? Or, would it still be the same? ------------------------------------------- It would be the same for me. The "Therefore" starting the 3rd paragraph seems to be a non sequitor. ------------------------------------------- Consciousness (translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi) 22. "It was said: 'With mentality-materiality as condition there is consciousness.' How that is so, Aananda, should be understood in this way: If consciousness were not to gain a footing in mentality-materiality, would an origination of the mass of suffering, of future birth, aging, and death, be discerned?" "Certainly not, venerable sir." "Therefore, Aananda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for consciousness, namely mentality-materiality. "It is to this extent, Aananda, that one can be born, age, and die, pass away and re-arise, to this extent that there is a pathway for designation, to this extent that there is a pathway for language, to this extent that there is a pathway for description, to this extent that there is a sphere for wisdom, to this extent that the round turns for describing this state of being, that is, when there is mentality-materiality together with consciousness." ---------- Kind regards, Han ===================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113910 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 4, no 5. ashkenn2k Dear Nina and Han Once returner can be reborn in the happy destiny if they attained jhanas even to arupa planes, even Stream enterers could also do that as long as they attain jhanas. Once returner could also be reborn in the sensual planes pg 165, Chapter Five - Process Free, Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary (13) Ordinary persons, and also persons who are stream enterers and once retuners are never found in the Pure Abodes (14) The Nobles one are not found in the levels of unconsciousness and misforturne; in the remaining places, both the Noble ones and also those who are not nobles ones are found, *** My own view and not of the text, the reason why once retuners will return to sensual plane is because the latency for sense objects are yet being eradicated Ken O > >Dear Han, >Op 7-mrt-2011, om 10:31 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > >> Your reference to MN 77 Mahaasakuludaayisutta and MN 16 >> Cetokhilasutta are also very useful. Although I do not have the Co. >> of these two suttas, I am now studying the main text of the suttas. >------ >N: I find the texts rather difficult like: 'the Once Return path from >part of the happy- >destiny existence'. This is clear: the No-Return path from the happy- >destiny >existence , no more rebirth in sensuous (kaama) planes. >Thus, perhaps, some once returners can have rebirth in a kaama plane, >and some in a higher plane? >------ >Nina. > #113911 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:06 pm Subject: the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) kenhowardau Hi Colette, ---- <. . .> > C: Isn't searching for an INDEPENDENTLY ARISING DHARMA the same thing as searching for DARK MATTER or even DARK ENERGY in the universe? ---- KH: Yes I would say it was the same, because all kinds of searching are things that *people* do. Dhammas, on the other hand, have no interest in searching. They simply arise, function and cease - disinterestedly. And in reality there are only dhammas no people. Ken H #113912 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 8, 2011 2:52 am Subject: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 7-mrt-2011, om 5:05 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > It then becomes hard to fight the new meaning, unless you have that > > history at hand. People can say "Well sabhava has *always* been > > around, it's an accepted Theravada term" - except that if we don't > > look into it we fail to notice that the word is the same but the > > meaning has evolved. So it's good to know that to the ancients the > > word had a specific, benign meaning that is descriptive; and that > > over time it was evolved by certain movements into another way of > > reintroducing a controlling factor or an objective essence back > > into the "interior" of dhammas. > ------- > N: I tend to have another approach. I appreciate the direct way Kh > Sujin approaches all these different subjects. > Instead of thinking of development in history, I believe that in > being aware of this characteristic or that characteristic appearing > now, it will be clear what sabhava means. Visible object is different > from sound, they appear through different doorways. It seems that > they appear together, but each citta can experience only one object. > Visible object has a characteristic different from sound. It does not > matter how you call it, sabhava or not, but the true nature of each > reality can be penetrated through awareness and right understanding. Yes, I think you have a very direct way of approaching the characteristic. I only want to make sure that if I do talk about the nature of dhammas that I don't fall into an idea of entity. And I am even more anxious to make sure that Ken H. doesn't fall into the idea of entity! ;-) But you are right, it is in the distinctive way the dhamma arises that its characteristic should be discovered. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #113913 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 8, 2011 3:05 am Subject: Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Sarah, Jon, Phil, Sukin, Nina and others, 7. D.O, Mogok Sayadaw (?) and the turning of the wheel. A simplistic approach that is often understood - past causes leading to present results leading to future causes and results. Conditions are much more complex. Han: In Burma, the late Mogok Sayadaw U Wimala emphasized the importance of thorough understanding of Dependent Origination in vipassanaa meditation. The followers of Mogok Sayadaw, both monks and lay persons, maintain this tradition. The chart used for teaching D.O. has four quadrants: (1) past causes, (2) present effects, (3) present causes, and (4) future effects. No (1) belongs to past life; Nos (2) and (3) to present life, and No (4) to future life. On the chart there are four arrows flowing from (1) to (2), (2) to (3), (3) to (4), and (4) to (1). I said that according to the direction of the arrows it appears that the D.O. is one way traffic. I said that there should be an arrow flowing from (3) back to (2), meaning the present causes not only produce future effects in the next life, but also produce the present effects in the present life itself. I have discussed this point with some of my friends who are the followers of Mogok Sayadaw, but they refuse to accept this idea. I said that if it were only in one direction, one can do anything one likes in this present life and another person who is reborn in the next life will bear all the effects. It would be dangerous as some may not be afraid to do evil things in this life if the effects were to come only in the next life. Besides, if the present causes in the present life produce the future effects only in the future life, the teaching of the Di.t.thadhamma-vedaniya kamma (kamma which bears fruits in the present life) will have no meaning at all. So far, I have not been able to introduce this idea of an arrow on the chart flowing back from No (3) quadrant to No (2) quadrant, with my Burmese friends. The DSG members may consider about this idea. Kind regards, Han #113914 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 8, 2011 3:35 am Subject: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Robert E and Howard, > > Let's be honest: no one at DSG has ever said that dhammas arose independently. The only dispute the only real, on-going dispute at DSG - has been over whether or not dependently arisen dhammas were ultimately real. Uh...that is incorrect, Ken. I've never said that dhammas aren't real so you must have me confused with someone else. What the ongoing dispute has been for *me* over the years, and we have talked about it many times, is whether dhammas had an independent, definite identity that is fixed in character outside of arising conditions. That's *my* issue. There are other issues of course, but in terms of paramatha dhammas that is the main one. I have said many times that I did not like the idea of the dhamma being a sort of independent "monad" that has fixed, describable characteristics of definite function and duration. To my mind, this kind of hyper-objective characterization with all its precise detail may be an idealized version of the way dhammas really arise. It is this precise "we know exactly how it works in detail" faith in the exact descriptions of conditions, characteristics and functions that I have had some doubt about, and have questioned in various ways. I tend to think that reality is sloppier than that, but I have been sincerely discussing and investigating and am open to the possibility that it really is a precisely constructed clockwork that will come out according to conditions in a predictable way - if one had the understanding and predictive power of a Buddha, that is. Anyway, *that* is my issue with the Abhidhamma description of ultimate realities, *not* whether dhammas actually arise and have a momentary existence that is real. I think that the elements of experience - aka dhammas - most definitely *do* arise and leave a distinct mark of experience as they do, as well as further conditioning other experiential elements, and in many ways I am very content with the way they are described and talked about here. So please, don't try to distract from the real issue of svabhava that has been raised in great detail in this thread, by raising a straw man that keeps us from confronting the actual point that has been made - that there is *no internal contents to a dhamma that would constitute any kind of being or entity* and that dhammas merely arise and behave as the conditions that give rise to them dictate at the moment in which these same conditions bring them into existence, and they then fall away with just as little meaning as they arose. *That* is the point of this thread, and you are free to agree with it, or disagree and say that you believe that each dhamma has genuine "own-being" in the sense that, beyond being real, they *carry* their characteristic like a real entity should, and *have* that character rather than simply appearing and disappearing in a specific way. That's the issue at hand, and I urge you to be brave enough to address it, and not dissemble by making up some other nonsense about "existence" upon which we actually agree. > If dependently arisen dhammas were *not* ultimately real then the only dhamma that *was* ultimately real would be nibbana. Nibbana would be what we are looking at now, and the secret to enlightenment would be simply to "look more closely." Well, we can discus this in another thread. Right now I'm concerned about crushing the substantialist view of "own-being" as a possession of a dhamma, rather than a characteristic way of functioning and behaving, that's all. As for whether anything is ultimately real other than nibbana, the point of agreement is that everything is *conditioned* other than nibbana, and in that sense nibbana is the only thing that has an *independent* existence, whereas every single conditioned dhamma is just a temporary product of conditions. That is why all dhammas are anicca, they are subject to the changing winds of conditions which are constantly shifting. Nibbana is impervious to conditions and is separate and apart from conditions. So it has a different type or level of reality, but that is all. Dhammas *do* actually arise, but that is *all* they do. That's the extent of their "reality." The whole point of samsara is that it pivots on an extremely thin and tenuous fulcrum, and as soon as conditions stop arising, it's over! It's as if it had never been. > In that scenario, anatta would lose all relevance. At best it would be (as Ven Thanissaro claims it is) a mere technique for making looking less stressful. I challenge you to show a quote of Thanissaro that makes such a weird claim. I doubt it exists. No one says anatta is a "technique." It is a realization, an understanding to be had, that there is no self at the heart of arising phenomena. But that is *all* that anatta is. Anatta means "no self." It doesn't mean anything else. It doesn't mean "great and holy characteristic." It doesn't mean "wondrous lynchpin of the teachings." It means *no self,* nothing, nada, where self had been assumed to play a role. It's an absolute and smashing, devastating corrective to the whole deeply-rooted concept of self and the whole conceptual-emotional promontory that is built on the concept of self. Its relevance is to take away the attachment to self and the supposed things of that self so that dukkha can be ended. That's all. It's like taking metaphysical rat poison and killing the self dead. Anatta is not some holy existent like nibbana. It is the *nothing* at the heart of self-hood, that's it's point. Where we think there is self, nothing is there. It is that great freedom from the ball and chain of self that anatta represents. It is nothing at all unto itself. *Nothing.* Ken, you seem to have a tendency to make icons and entities out of your favorite parts of the Dhamma. I would watch out for that! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #113915 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 8, 2011 8:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 4, no 5. nilovg Dear Han, Op 7-mrt-2011, om 12:17 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I have asked my friends in Yangon whether the Burmese translation > is available. If I find something I will let you know. ------ N: Good, we can wait, it does not matter. Nina. #113916 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 8, 2011 7:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Ken) - [Howard butting in uninvited! ;-] Robert, I agree with what you say in this post, but I take it a bit further, I'd say. I will quote below what I am in basic agreement with and also add what additional there is to my perspective: In a message dated 3/7/2011 10:35:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Ken H. I have said many times that I did not like the idea of the dhamma being a sort of independent "monad" that has fixed, describable characteristics of definite function and duration. To my mind, this kind of hyper-objective characterization with all its precise detail may be an idealized version of the way dhammas really arise. [With regard to the idea of nibbana being the only ultimate reality] Well, we can discus this in another thread. Right now I'm concerned about crushing the substantialist view of "own-being" as a possession of a dhamma, rather than a characteristic way of functioning and behaving, that's all. As for whether anything is ultimately real other than nibbana, the point of agreement is that everything is *conditioned* other than nibbana, and in that sense nibbana is the only thing that has an *independent* existence, whereas every single conditioned dhamma is just a temporary product of conditions. That is why all [Howard: conditioned] dhammas are anicca, they are subject to the changing winds of conditions which are constantly shifting. Nibbana is impervious to conditions and is separate and apart from conditions. So it has a different type or level of reality, but that is all. Dhammas *do* actually arise, but that is *all* they do. That's the extent of their "reality." The whole point of samsara is that it pivots on an extremely thin and tenuous fulcrum, and as soon as conditions stop arising, it's over! It's as if it had never been. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I go further here. As I view the matter, there IS a variation, ebb & flow, and distinguishability in the quality of experience - sometimes mental, sometimes physical; and when physical, sometimes visual, sometimes auditory, sometimes olfactory, sometimes gustatory, and sometimes tactile (i.e., bodily), but the naming and characterization in this fashion is in part a matter of concept, and the slicing up into distinct, separate, and self-existent physical and mental entities, "monads" in your terminology, Robert, namely rupas and namas, is strictly conventional and mind-imposed, and, if thought to be more than that a matter of convention, then delusive. ================================= With metta, Howard /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) #113917 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 8, 2011 1:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, Ch 4, no 5. nilovg Dear Ken O, Op 7-mrt-2011, om 17:32 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > pg 165, Chapter Five - Process Free, Summary of the Topics of > Abhidhamma and > Commentary > (13) Ordinary persons, and also persons who are stream enterers and > once > retuners are never found in the Pure Abodes > > (14) The Nobles one are not found in the levels of unconsciousness and > misforturne; in the remaining places, both the Noble ones and also > those who are > not nobles ones are found, > > *** My own view and not of the text, the reason why once retuners > will return to > sensual plane is because the latency for sense objects are yet > being eradicated ------- N: Thank you, this is very good. I am glad you found this in T.A. Nina. #113918 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 8, 2011 4:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The clansman who is a beginner : one of the ancient wise ones? ashkenn2k Dear Rob E >This is good - so there is still kamma, but a different kamma then if the kamma >patha takes place, since there is no kamma in the body door...? That would make >sense, if I understand you correctly. Less negative kamma than if the act was >committed. KO: I could not say it is less negative kamma because the text did not compare the kamma commit by the mind door and the body door. the comparision I come across is more like the being we kill, for eg a heaviier kamma if the human we kill is virtous than an evil one. KO: on another topic, on about conventional learning and direct learning. pg 141, The All Embracing Net of Views, The commentary <> Then in A Treatise of Paramis, a little bit more details. http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm This is an analysis of the sphere of learning: the five aggregates, the twelve sense bases, the eighteen elements, the four truths, the twenty-two faculties, the twelve factors of dependent origination, the foundations of mindfulness, etc., the various classifications of phenomena such as the wholesome, etc., as well as any blameless secular fields of knowledge which may be suitable for promoting the welfare and happiness of beings, particularly grammar. Thus, with wisdom, mindfulness, and energy preceded by skilful means, a bodhisattva should first thoroughly immerse himself in this entire sphere of learning -- through study, listening, memorization, learning, and interrogation; then he should establish others in learning. In this way the wisdom born of learning (sutamayi panna) can be developed. So too, out of his wish for the welfare of others, the bodhisattva should develop the wisdom of ingenuity in creating opportunities to fulfil his various duties to his fellow beings and the skilful means in understanding their happiness and misery. Then he should develop wisdom born of reflection (cintamayi panna) by first reflecting upon the specific nature of the phenomena such as the aggregates, and then arousing reflective acquiescence in them. Next, he should perfect the preliminary portion of the wisdom born of meditation (pubbabhagabhavanapanna) by developing the mundane kinds of full understanding through the discernment of the specific and general characteristics of the aggregates, etc.22 To do so, he should fully understand all internal and external phenomena without exception as follows: "This is mere mentality-materiality (namarupamatta), which arises and ceases according to conditions. There is here no agent or actor. It is impermanent in the sense of not being after having been; suffering in the sense of oppression by rise and fall; and non-self in the sense of being unsusceptible to the exercise of mastery." Comprehending them in this way, he abandons attachment to them, and helps others to do so as well. Entirely out of compassion, he continues to help his fellow beings enter and reach maturity in the three vehicles, assists them to achieve mastery over the jhanas, deliverances, concentrations, attainments, and mundane direct knowledges, and does not desist until he reaches the very peak of wisdom and all the Buddha-qualities come within his grasp. Ken O #113919 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 8, 2011 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta ashkenn2k Dear Howard according to the commentary for this suttta, pg 84 <<21. If consciousness were not to descened into the Mother's womb... Comy - If, after having entered, it were not occur by way of rebirthing linking. SUB comy - it is said in the text "were not to descend into the motehr's womb" in order to show separately that consciousness, at its first arising is the distinctive condition for mentality-materiality. Though the rebirth linking of the embryo is spoken of as it it descends into the mother's womb from outside, the phrase denotes the first arising of the aggregates there in accordance with conditions.>> < Date: Tue Mar 8, 2011 5:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. ashkenn2k Dear Rob E three good translations available online, Right View and its Commentary http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html The Removal of Distracting thoughts and commentary http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel021.html the Satipatthana sutta and commentary http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html I only read commentary written by ancient monks :-). There are a few other good commentaries that are not online that maybe you could get your hands on especially this on the Roots of Existence (MN1) and the commentary. It wrote extensively on how cravings, wrong views and conceit cause the problem of misconceivings there is a self. Ken O #113921 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Mar 8, 2011 10:13 pm Subject: the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) kenhowardau Hi Robert E and Howard, Here's my latest entry in the Longest Post competition. :-) ---------- > > KH: Let's be honest: no one at DSG has ever said that dhammas arose independently.The only dispute the only real, on-going dispute at DSG - has been over whether or not dependently arisen dhammas were ultimately real. > RE: Uh...that is incorrect, Ken. I've never said that dhammas aren't real so you must have me confused with someone else. ---------- KH: Perhaps we have different ideas of what "real" means. :-) But my aim was to look beyond these interminable discussions and acknowledge the reasons behind them. It's not just you. Over the years *many* people at DSG have seemed desperately keen to find fault with the Abhidhamma. Why? ------------------ > RE: What the ongoing dispute has been for *me* over the years, and we have talked about it many times, is whether dhammas had an independent, definite identity that is fixed in character outside of arising conditions. ------------------ KH: Perhaps I shouldn't have said "to find fault with the Abhidhamma" maybe the aim of those people has been to find fault with certain understandings of the Abhidhamma. It has been generally agreed here (1) that there are only dhammas, and (2) that all dhammas are absolutely devoid of self. But the literal interpretation of that rule is a bit too cut and dried for some people. And so we have seen desperate attempts at finding exceptions to it, no matter how subtle or obscure. --------------------------- > RE: That's *my* issue. There are other issues of course, but in terms of paramatha dhammas that is the main one. I have said many times that I did not like the idea of the dhamma being a sort of independent "monad" that has fixed, describable characteristics of definite function and duration. --------------------------- KH: Yes, but *why* don't you like that idea? Why is it so threatening? ------------------------------ > RE: To my mind, this kind of hyper-objective characterization with all its precise detail may be an idealized version of the way dhammas really arise. It is this precise "we know exactly how it works in detail" faith in the exact descriptions of conditions, characteristics and functions that I have had some doubt about, and have questioned in various ways. I tend to think that reality is sloppier than that, but I have been sincerely discussing and investigating and am open to the possibility that it really is a precisely constructed clockwork that will come out according to conditions in a predictable way - if one had the understanding and predictive power of a Buddha, that is. ------------------------------- KH: Sounds to me like more desperate attempts at denying the undeniable. ----------------------- > RE: Anyway, *that* is my issue with the Abhidhamma description of ultimate realities, *not* whether dhammas actually arise and have a momentary existence that is real. I think that the elements of experience - aka dhammas - most definitely *do* arise and leave a distinct mark of experience as they do, as well as further conditioning other experiential elements, and in many ways I am very content with the way they are described and talked about here. So please, don't try to distract from the real issue of svabhava that has been raised in great detail in this thread, by raising a straw man that keeps us from confronting the actual point that has been made - that there is *no internal contents to a dhamma that would constitute any kind of being or entity* ----------------------- KH: Or phenomenon (dhamma) . . -------------------------------- > RE: and that dhammas merely arise and behave as the conditions that give rise to them dictate at the moment in which these same conditions bring them into existence, and they then fall away with just as little meaning as they arose. *That* is the point of this thread, and you are free to agree with it, or disagree and say that you believe that each dhamma has genuine "own-being" in the sense that, beyond being real, they *carry* their characteristic like a real entity should, and *have* that character rather than simply appearing and disappearing in a specific way. That's the issue at hand, and I urge you to be brave enough to address it, and not dissemble by making up some other nonsense about "existence" upon which we actually agree. --------------------------------- KH: I will admit there may be some finer points about sabhava that I have not correctly grasped. That remains to be seen. But the main thing is that dhammas do have sabhava (essence). That is what makes them different from concepts, which have no essence. --------------------- > > KH: If dependently arisen dhammas were *not* ultimately real then the only dhamma that *was* ultimately real would be nibbana. Nibbana would be what we are looking at now, and the secret to enlightenment would be simply to "look more closely." > RE: Well, we can discuss this in another thread. Right now I'm concerned about crushing the substantialist view of "own-being" as a possession of a dhamma, rather than a characteristic way of functioning and behaving, that's all. -------------------- KH: OK, we'll discuss it on another thread, but my point was that all meditators all people who see the Dhamma as a list of things to do need to discredit the theory of paramattha dhammas. The theory of paramattha dhammas explains how the eightfold path (along with everything else that is real) is just a matter of uncontrolled, momentary dhammas. That doesn't fit with the idea of formal meditation. -------------------------------------- > RE: As for whether anything is ultimately real other than nibbana, the point of agreement is that everything is *conditioned* other than nibbana, -------------------------------------- KH: Every *reality* other than nibbana is conditioned. ------------------------- > RE: and in that sense nibbana is the only thing that has an *independent* existence, whereas every single conditioned dhamma is just a temporary product of conditions. That is why all dhammas are anicca, they are subject to the changing winds of conditions which are constantly shifting. Nibbana is impervious to conditions and is separate and apart from conditions. So it has a different type or level of reality, but that is all. Dhammas *do* actually arise, but that is *all* they do. That's the extent of their "reality." The whole point of samsara is that it pivots on an extremely thin and tenuous fulcrum, and as soon as conditions stop arising, it's over! It's as if it had never been. --------------------------- KH: I'm not sure if I have understood that properly, but it seems mostly accurate to me. The only part I would definitely disagree with was the explanation of anicca. I say anicca forms part of the essence of a dhamma. Hardness (for example) forms part the essence of a tangible rupa, and so too does anicca. ---------------------------------- > > KH: In that scenario, anatta would lose all relevance. At best it would be (as Ven Thanissaro claims it is) a mere technique for making looking less stressful. > RE: I challenge you to show a quote of Thanissaro that makes such a weird claim. ---------------------------------- KH: It's no secret. I think almost everyone knows by now what Thanissaro B is trying to tell them. ------------------- > RE: I doubt it exists. No one says anatta is a "technique." -------------------- KH: Just Google it! Here's something I found with my first click: The Not-self Strategy by Thanissaro Bhikkhu 19932011 Books on Buddhism often state that the Buddha's most basic metaphysical tenet is that there is no soul or self. However, a survey of the discourses in the Pali canon the earliest extant record of the Buddha's teachings suggests that the Buddha taught the anatta or not-self doctrine, not as a metaphysical assertion, but as a strategy for gaining release from suffering: If one uses the concept of not-self to dis-identify oneself from all phenomena, one goes beyond the reach of all suffering & stress. As for what lies beyond suffering & stress, the Canon states that although it may be experienced, it lies beyond the range of description, and thus such descriptions as "self" or "not-self" would not apply. The evidence for this reading of the Canon centers on four points: 1. The one passage where the Buddha is asked point-blank to take a position on the ontological question of whether or not there is a self, he refuses to answer. 2. The passages which state most categorically that there is no self are qualified in such a way that they cover all of describable reality, but not all of reality which may be experienced. 3. Views that there is no self are ranked with views that there is a self as a "fetter of views" which a person aiming at release from suffering would do well to avoid. 4. The person who has attained the goal of release views reality in such a way that all views even such basic notions as self & no-self, true & false can have no hold power over the mind. (end quote) KH: And on it goes. In all of his essays, TB clearly denies that anatta means there is no atta (no self). He makes no secret of his belief. ---------------------- > RE: It is a realization, an understanding to be had, that there is no self at the heart of arising phenomena. But that is *all* that anatta is. Anatta means "no self." It doesn't mean anything else. It doesn't mean "great and holy characteristic." It doesn't mean "wondrous lynchpin of the teachings." It means *no self,* nothing, nada, where self had been assumed to play a role. It's an absolute and smashing, devastating corrective to the whole deeply-rooted concept of self and the whole conceptual-emotional promontory that is built on the concept of self. Its relevance is to take away the attachment to self and the supposed things of that self so that dukkha can be ended. That's all. It's like taking metaphysical rat poison and killing the self dead. Anatta is not some holy existent like nibbana. It is the *nothing* at the heart of self-hood, that's it's point. Where we think there is self, nothing is there. It is that great freedom from the ball and chain of self that anatta represents. It is nothing at all unto itself. *Nothing.* ---------------- KH: Anatta is everything. It is an inherent characteristic of everything that really exists, even nibbana. --------------------- > RE: Ken, you seem to have a tendency to make icons and entities out of your favourite parts of the Dhamma. I would watch out for that! :-) --------------------- KH: Anatta can never be taken too far. Whenever there are problems with the Abhidhamma it is because anatta has not been taken far enough. Ken H #113922 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 8, 2011 5:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Nina & Sarah, and also Robert) - In a message dated 3/8/2011 5:13:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: KH: I will admit there may be some finer points about sabhava that I have not correctly grasped. That remains to be seen. But the main thing is that dhammas do have sabhava (essence). That is what makes them different from concepts, which have no essence. ================================== Ken, it is my understanding that Theravada regards 'sabhava' as pretty much a synonym for 'lakkhana' (or 'quality') rather than 'essence'. I believe that Nina and Sarah have expressed that. If I misstate their perspective, I hope they will correct me on that. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113923 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 8, 2011 10:44 pm Subject: Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Sarah, Jon, Phil, Sukin, Nina and others, 4. Phil's letter to his father - a very well-written and moving letter which I've encouraged him to share here with everyone. Buddhism for anyone - not a label. Daily life, but does it depend on the field? For example, if someone is involved in a criminal lifestyle or nefarious pursuits, can the Dhamma be appreciated? Rebirths and the precious human life opportunities. Is satipatthana really enough of a protection? Han's good reminders that we can never force anyone to believe anything. We just share and give exposure. Before the age of 70, his only 'religion' was Newtonian science! Even Sariputta's mother remained a non-believer until Sariputta was dying. --------------- Han: I can only add my own experience to what Sarah had written above. I was born Buddhist and I grew up in a very religious atmosphere. The Buddha's teachings were included in school curriculum. I was a very pious young man until the WWII. During the war, I witnessed and experienced the atrocities of war, and my young mind became hardened and callous. It was *a survival of the fitness* for me, and I became *indifferent* to many things. This indifferent attitude persisted in me after the war. When my close friends urged me to go to temple and listen to the monks' sermons or take eight precepts, I did not do it. I told them it was not necessary, and I had the religion in my heart in that I do not cause anybody any harm, and that I believe in the Law of Kamma which I compared with the Newton's Third Law of Motion: to every action there is equally and opposite reaction. That Newton's Law was my religion in those days. Then, at the age of 70, without anybody's urging, I started to study and practice the teachings of the Buddha. I stopped drinking completely and I observe the five precepts carefully since then. I attribute this transformation to my paramis that have been accumulated during my past lives. So I told Phil that no one can force anyone to believe in anything. He/she will come to believe by himself or herself when the conditions are there. So it was very good that there was not a hint in his letter to his father of advising or urging his father to do this or not do that. He was simply telling his father how the Buddha's teachings have reduced his stress and make him happy, and a better appreciation of siila. I reminded that even Ven Saariputta's mother (the mother of seven Arahats) remained a non-believer until Saariputta's dying days. Kind regards, Han #113924 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 1:02 am Subject: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) kenhowardau Hi Howard, ----- <. . .> > H: Ken, it is my understanding that Theravada regards 'sabhava' as pretty > much a synonym for 'lakkhana' (or 'quality') rather than 'essence'. I > believe that Nina and Sarah have expressed that. If I misstate their > perspective, I hope they will correct me on that. ----- KH: I can assure you that they have used the words "essence" and "sabhava" interchangeably. The problem that remains, of course, is what do they mean by those words? They have tried to explain it hundreds of times on DSG but it is not easy. We tend to hear what we want to hear. :-) Here is one of Jon's explanations: ". . . On the question of my usage of the phrase "individual essence" to refer to the visible object, this is the translation of 'sabhava' used by Nanamoli, Bodhi and others. In other words, it has the same meaning as the expressions 'own-nature' and 'distinctive intrinsic characteristic' in Karunadasa's passage. It applies to visible object as to any other paramattha dhamma." (message 22109) Ken H #113925 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 4:09 am Subject: Re: Questions on Samatha. epsteinrob Hi Ken O, and Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >---------------------------------------------------- > >> KO: then why do people travel all the way to foundation to listen to dhamma, > >>isn't that intentional also. Why do we read books and go email to discuss > >>dhamma, aren't these actions are intentional behaviour. > > > >If one said these are all accumulated behaviour, why cant their formal meditaion > > > >are also their accumulated behaviour. > > > >------------------------------------------------------- > > > >KH: If I don't skip ahead to something easier this reply will never get posted. > > >:-) > > KO: You cannot give a good reply and I am confident of it. I want to underline this moment here in your conversation, and agree with you that Ken H. has simply skipped out on the question you raised. I'd like to urge Ken H. to answer this question, rather than complaining that it would take too long to answer! That is not an excuse worthy of your usual forthright manner, Ken H. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #113926 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 7:18 am Subject: Re: Questions on Samatha. kenhowardau Hi Robert E and Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Ken O, and Ken H. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > >---------------------------------------------------- > > >> KO: then why do people travel all the way to foundation to listen to dhamma, > > >>isn't that intentional also. Why do we read books and go email to discuss > > >>dhamma, aren't these actions are intentional behaviour. > > > > > >If one said these are all accumulated behaviour, why cant their formal meditaion > > > > > >are also their accumulated behaviour. > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >KH: If I don't skip ahead to something easier this reply will never get posted. > > > > >:-) > > > > KO: You cannot give a good reply and I am confident of it. > > I want to underline this moment here in your conversation, and agree with you that Ken H. has simply skipped out on the question you raised. I'd like to urge Ken H. to answer this question, rather than complaining that it would take too long to answer! That is not an excuse worthy of your usual forthright manner, Ken H. -------------- KH: I think the problem was that Ken O, in all his years at DSG, had apparently not listened to a single thing. The one thing, above all else, that DSG people have been trying to impress upon us is that there is *only the present moment*. There are only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. With that understanding (if only we would listen!!!) we can see that the Dhamma is not about getting something, or attaining a higher state, or anything like that. (How could it be? - if there is only the present moment?) And yet Ken O still thinks those DSG people attend discussion meetings, and write emails to DSG (etc), *with the aim of getting somewhere or attaining something*. What can I say? :-) Ken H #113927 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 10:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) nilovg Hi Howard, Op 8-mrt-2011, om 23:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Ken, it is my understanding that Theravada regards 'sabhava' as pretty > much a synonym for 'lakkhana' (or 'quality') rather than 'essence'. I > believe that Nina and Sarah have expressed that. If I misstate their > perspective, I hope they will correct me on that. ------ N: Yes, very good Howard. Kh Sujin speaks all the time about realities and in Thai she says: sabhava dhammas (Thai: sepap dham). Nina. #113928 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 11:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta nilovg Hi Howard, Op 7-mrt-2011, om 14:47 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > "It purports to show how consciousness arises from ... namarupa. But > it does not do that at all! What it shows is that birth, aging, > death, and > dukkha have the embodiment of consciousness (i.e., the aforementioned > descent into the womb) as their cause." > Mind you, I'm not doubting in the slightest that vi~n~nana depends on > namarupa. I'm just saying that this does not actually get addressed > in that > 2nd passage. Perhaps something got deleted from the sutta over > time, but > as it stands, that passage discusses (exactly) the origination of > "birth, > aging, death, and stress in the future" due to the descent of > consciousness > into the womb. It does not discuss the conditionality relation > namarupa --> > vi~n~nana. ------- N: Not only in the commentary, also in the sutta it is said, as quoted by Han: <22. "It was said: 'With mentality-materiality as condition there is consciousness.' How that is so, Aananda, should be understood in this way: If consciousness were not to gain a footing in mentality-materiality, would an origination of the mass of suffering, of future birth, aging, and death, be discerned?" "Certainly not, venerable sir." "Therefore, Aananda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for consciousness, namely mentality-materiality. "It is to this extent, Aananda, that one can be born, age, and die, pass away and re-arise, to this extent that there is a pathway for designation, to this extent that there is a pathway for language, to this extent that there is a pathway for description, to this extent that there is a sphere for wisdom, to this extent that the round turns for describing this state of being, that is, when there is mentality-materiality together with consciousness."> In the co this is further elaborated, see Ken O's post, but also in the sutta the essence of this subject is there. You write: What it shows is that birth, aging, death, and dukkha have the embodiment of consciousness (i.e., the aforementioned descent into the womb) as their cause." There are many approaches to the D.O. Sometimes the Buddha would teach all the links, sometimes only a few, or start at the middle or the end. It depends on what is emphasized. True: birth conditions old age and death. Vi~n~naa.na stands here for birth-consciousness. There are many links in between and as said, not always all links are mentioned. We can say: if there were no birth there would not be death. The link vi~n~naa.na conditions naama/ruupa is shown in all suttas where all the links are mentioned. When we remember that vi~n~naa.na and naama/ruupa are conascent there is no problem to say: naama/ruupa conditions consciousness. It is stated in the sutta itself: They are together! This is further explained in the co. I do not see where something is unclear or omitted in this sutta. When we read in this sutta that naama/ruupa conditions consciousness we can conclude that this is only possible when they are conascent. We do not have to think of a 'hidden vortex', too complicated. Perhaps the trouble is that usually people take it that one link comes after the other. They do not see that some of the conditions are conascent and reciprocal. ------- Nina. #113929 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 9:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/9/2011 6:10:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Not only in the commentary, also in the sutta it is said, as quoted by Han: <22. "It was said: 'With mentality-materiality as condition there is consciousness.' How that is so, Aananda, should be understood in this way: If consciousness were not to gain a footing in mentality-materiality, would an origination of the mass of suffering, of future birth, aging, and death, be discerned?" "Certainly not, venerable sir." "Therefore, Aananda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for consciousness, namely mentality-materiality. ======================================= That is a nonsequitor, Nina! Something is very wrong with this. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113930 From: nichicon cp Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 2:23 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta Sevens #11 nichiconn Dear Friends, DN33 continues: CSCD < Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 4:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. ashkenn2k Dear Ken H > >And yet Ken O still thinks those DSG people attend discussion meetings, and >write emails to DSG (etc), *with the aim of getting somewhere or attaining >something*. > >What can I say? :-) > KO: hmm, you have yet tell me the difference. then I wonder why DSG purposely go to attend discussion meetings if it is not to attain more knowledge Ken O #113932 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta nilovg Hi Howard, Op 9-mrt-2011, om 15:15 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > That is a nonsequitor, Nina! Something is very wrong with this. ------- N: Sorry, I do not understand what you mean. Do you mean this turning around is not logical? I do not see the problem. Nina. #113933 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta ashkenn2k Dear Howard Is this the statements you are asking about? if not pse do tell me, thanks << If consciousness were not to gain a footing in mentality-materiality, would an origination of the mass of suffering, of future birth, aging, and death, be discerned?">> KO: In the text, re-linking citta is described as the source of pain, the orginatin of the mass of suffering. the commentary of Right View <> Ken O > #113934 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/9/2011 11:04:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 9-mrt-2011, om 15:15 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > That is a nonsequitor, Nina! Something is very wrong with this. ------- N: Sorry, I do not understand what you mean. Do you mean this turning around is not logical? I do not see the problem. Nina. ============================= It is a matter of illogic. The explanation does not pertain to how consciousness arises from namarupa. Let me spell it out: "It was said: 'With mentality-materiality as condition there is consciousness.' How that is so, Aananda, should be understood in this way: If consciousness were not to gain a footing in mentality-materiality, would an origination of the mass of suffering, of future birth, aging, and death, be discerned?" --------------------------------------------------------- The preceding does NOT explain how it is so that consciousness arises from namarupa. What it says is that the "origination of the mass of suffering, of future birth, aging, and death" arises from consciousness gaining a footing in namarupa. ------------------------------------------------- "Certainly not, venerable sir." "Therefore, Aananda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for consciousness, namely mentality-materiality. -------------------------------------------------------- That alleged conclusion is not at all what was shown. It is this alleged conclusion that is a nonsequitor - it does not follow as a logical conclusion. I cannot clarify this further, Nina. I strongly believe there is a serious problem with this sutta. Something must be missing. ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113935 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 9, 2011 11:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/9/2011 11:15:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard Is this the statements you are asking about? if not pse do tell me, thanks << If consciousness were not to gain a footing in mentality-materiality, would an origination of the mass of suffering, of future birth, aging, and death, be discerned?">> KO: In the text, re-linking citta is described as the source of pain, the orginatin of the mass of suffering. the commentary of Right View ================================= That is exactly so. But it is CLAIMED that this statement you quote above shows how consciousness arises from namarupa. But that is NOT what it shows. The claim is mistaken With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113936 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:02 am Subject: Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Sarah, Jon, Phil, Sukin, Nina and others, 3. Sila, sila, sila... during this discussion Phil arrived. More on present moment and paramatthas, past accumulations likely to resurface. Sila as a shelter, sila as no 1. Satipatthana not enough of a protection. Phil's appreciation of the Sayadaws, such as U Yanissaro's(?) strong language on the danger of defilements, with Abhidhamma interspersed. And yet, with all the exposure to Buddhism, Han only became really interested in the Dhamma at age 70 with the stress on the paramis. --------------------- Han: [Before I touch upon the above topic, I want to write an important point that I had missed in my last message. When I said, "no one can force anyone to believe in anything", Jon asked me how I deal with my family members? I replied that I use the same approach, i.e., I do not tell them what to do or what not to do, but I show them a good example, and provide them with an "exposure" to the Dhamma. It would not have been possible to show them a good example before 1996. It would be ridiculous to ask my son not drink when I was drinking myself. Now, I show them a good example. As regards exposure to Dhamma, whenever I listen to the Dhamma tapes by Burmese Sayadaws, everybody in my family, living in a small apartment, can hear the Dhamma talks. So, after some time of this exposure, they take up the practice without my urging them. They are now reading and reciting the Dhamma passages, particularly the Eleven Parittas, and they are contemplating on the Nine Attributes of the Buddha with the prayer beads.] At the meeting, we discussed a lot about siila. I said with regard to the gradual training in "siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa", siila is the most important for a beginner. In another triad, "daana, siila, bhaavanaa", here again, siila is the most important. Without siila, one's daana would not be that beneficial. In Burma, in every religious ceremony, including daana, we start the proceedings with the observance of the five precepts. Among our Elders there were some who died peacefully while asleep, and we attribute that to the good siila of that Elder. Thus, siila is the *roots* of all meritorious deeds. ---------- I did not quote it at the meeting, but I like very much what Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi had written in his "Nourishing The Roots: Essays on Buddhist Ethics". http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel259.html Some excerpts: "The principal stages of this gradual training are three: the training in sila or virtue, the training in samadhi or concentration, and the training in paa or wisdom. If we follow through the comparison of the Buddhist discipline to a tree, faith (saddha) would be the seed, for it is faith that provides the initial impulse through which the training is taken up, and faith again that nourishes the training through every phase of its development. Virtue would be the roots, for it is virtue that gives grounding to our spiritual endeavors just as the roots give grounding to a tree. Concentration would be the trunk, the symbol of strength, non-vacillation, and stability. And wisdom would be the branches, which yield the flowers of enlightenment and the fruits of deliverance. "The vigour of the spiritual life, like the vigour of a tree, depends upon healthy roots. Just as a tree with weak and shallow roots cannot flourish but will grow up stunted, withered and barren, so a spiritual life devoid of strong roots will also have a stunted growth incapable of bearing fruit. To attempt to scale the higher stages of the path it is essential at the outset to nourish the proper roots of the path; otherwise the result will be frustration, disillusionment, and perhaps even danger. The roots of the path are the constituents of sila, the factors of moral virtue. These are the basis for meditation, the ground for all wisdom and higher achievement." ---------- Then, at the meeting, Jon and Sarah asked me what about pa~n~naa? I said a basic pa~n~naa would be necessary for a beginner, but it may not be necessary for a beginner to go into the higher level of pa~n~naa such as "living at the present moment and understanding of the naama and ruupa that appears at the present moment." Now, as I am writing this message, I realize that Jon and Sarah had a good point. We should develop siila and pa~n~naa equally from the very beginning. The two should be conascent and mutually supportive of each other in their development. Kind regards, Han #113937 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. kenhowardau Hi Ken O, <. . . > > KO: hmm, you have yet tell me the difference. then I wonder why DSG purposely > go to attend discussion meetings if it is not to attain more knowledge > ------- KH: Hmm, now I am wondering why *you* go to discussion meetings. :-) According to the Dhamma, no one goes anywhere. No one performs kusala kamma, and no one performs akusala kamma. There are just momentary dhammas. Therefore, if you are doing what you are doing in the hope of becoming enlightened you are wasting your time. No one becomes enlightened. Ken H #113938 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. ashkenn2k Dear Ken H >------- > >KH: Hmm, now I am wondering why *you* go to discussion meetings. :-) > >According to the Dhamma, no one goes anywhere. No one performs kusala kamma, and > >no one performs akusala kamma. There are just momentary dhammas. > >Therefore, if you are doing what you are doing in the hope of becoming >enlightened you are wasting your time. No one becomes enlightened. > KO: Oh now you are saying no one goes anywhere so I dont know why you come to DSG to write email and you use your name as Ken H :-). hmm you have yet tell the difference between coming to discussion and going to meditation. >According to the Dhamma, no one goes anywhere. No one performs kusala kamma, and > >no one performs akusala kamma. There are just momentary dhammas. > KO: this is wrong view. You are like saying, there is no Father, Mother, etc.. Since there are only monetary dhamma, why do sons and daughther who kill their parents have to go the Avici hell. You like to explain this paradox. Ken O #113939 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta ashkenn2k Dear Howard, I have earlier shown how citta becomes a conditon for nama and rupa in the re-linking citta. Let me how say how nama and rupa becomes a condition for citta in the reverse D.O. commentary to DN15 pg 88 22. Therefore Ananda, this is the cause .... and condition for consciousness, namely, mentality - materiality Comy - (Mentality - Materiality is a condition for consciousness) in the way a king's offcers, restraining the king might say "Who was it made you king?" Didn't we do so? If you could become king alone, without one of us occupying the position of viceroy, another the position of general, then we would see what kind of king you are." In the same way, as it were, mentality- materiality might say to consciousness: "Who is it that make you the rebirth-linking consciousness? Didn't we do so? If you could become a rebirth-linking consciousness without the support of the other three mental aggregates and the heart-basis, then we would see what kind of rebirth-linking consciousness you are." Mentality-Materiality is a condition for consciousness in many ways. Dispeller of Delusion - pg 207 on citta and namarupa <<777 But are only the three aggregates mentality and is consciousness not called mentality? Not that it is not. But if it is included, there comes to be the co-presence of two kinds of consciousness, namely consciousness as mentality and consciousness as condition. Therefore, leaving consciousness in its place as condition, the three aggregates only are stated in order to show the mentality which is produced by the condition, >> Ken O #113940 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ----------- <. . .> KO: Oh now you are saying no one goes anywhere so I dont know why you come to DSG to write email and you use your name as Ken H :-). ------------ KH: If you don't know then it's time you found out! :-) In reality, there are conditioned dhammas over which there is no control. These dhammas function in various ways and in strict accordance with conditions. One of their functions is to create complex stories that explain their functioning. For example they might create the story "I will send a message to DSG." In reality, however, there is no I, no message, and no DSG; there are just dhammas conditioning other dhammas. So there is no easy answer to the question "Why do you come to DSG and write emails?" (I.e., "Why did dhammas create that particular story?") In reality there are countless reasons - countless volitions - involved. Since I am going to a Dhamma group and not a casino (for example) I can assume there will be some "right" volitions involved, but I can't be sure of that. --------------------------- > KO: hmm you have yet tell the difference between coming to discussion and going to meditation. --------------------------- KH: The dhammas that prompt the story "I am going to meditation" will inevitably contain some "wrong" volitions. Formal meditation is for people who want reality to be other than it is. They don't understand that all reality (desired and undesired) is just dhammas. Not only do they not have right understanding but, worse still, they have wrong understanding. So the people who go to the casino might possibly be better off than the people who go to the meditation hall. The various volitions that prompt the casino story will inevitably contain ignorance and craving, but not necessarily wrong view. ------------------------- >> KH: According to the Dhamma, no one goes anywhere. No one performs kusala kamma, and no one performs akusala kamma. There are just momentary dhammas. >> > KO: this is wrong view. ------------------------- KH: No, it is Dhamma. ------------------------------ > KO: You are like saying, there is no Father, Mother, etc.. ------------------------------ KH: People can have a wrong understanding of the Dhamma and say the right words for the wrong reasons. In reality there is no father or mother, but some people think there is a self who has no father or mother. ------------------------------------------- > KO: Since there are only monetary dhamma, why do sons and daughther who kill their parents have to go the Avici hell. You like to explain this paradox. ------------------------------------------- KH: There is no paradox. In hell, just as here, 'mere suffering exists; no sufferer is found.' (Vism.) Ken H #113941 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:42 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta Sevens, sutta 11. nilovg Dear friends, Walshe DN. 33.2.3(11) 'Seven persons worthy of offerings: The Both-Ways- Liberated [iii 254], the Wisdom-Liberated, the Body-Witness, the Vision-Attainer, the Faith-Liberated, the Dhamma-Devotee, the Faith- Devotee (Satta puggalaa dakkhi.neyyaa - ubhatobhaagavimutto , pa~n~naavimutto, kaayasakkhi, di.t.thippatto, saddhaavimutto, dhammaanusaarii, saddhaanusaarii.) -------- Buddhist Dictionary (Ven. Nyanatiloka): B) The sevenfold grouping of the noble disciples is as follows: (1) the faith-devotee (saddhaanusaar), (2) the faith-liberated one (saddhaavimutta), (3) the body-witness (kaaya-sakkh), (4) the both-ways-liberated one (ubhato-bhaaga-vimutta), (5) the Dhamma- devotee (dhammaanusaar), (6) the vision-attainer (ditthippatta), (7) the wisdom-liberated one (pa~n~naa-vimutta). This group of seven noble disciples is thus explained in Vis.M. XXI, 73: (1) "He who is filled with resolution (adhimokkha) and, in considering the formations as impermanent (anicca), gains the faculty of faith, he, at the moment of the path to Stream-winning is called a faith-devotee (saddhaanusaar); (2) at the seven higher stages he is called a faith-liberated one (saddhaa-vimutta). (3) He who is filled with tranquillity and, in considering the formations as miserable (dukkha), gains the faculty of concentration, he in every respect is considered as a body-witness (kaaya-sakkh). (4) He, however, who after reaching the absorptions of the immaterial sphere has attained the highest fruition (of Holiness), he is a both-ways-liberated one (ubhato-bhaaga-vimutta). (5) He who is filled with wisdom and, in considering the formations as not-self (anattaa), gains the faculty of wisdom, he is at the moment of Stream-winning a Dhamma-devotee (dhammaanusaar), (6) at the later stages a vision-attainer (ditthippatta), (7) at the highest stage a wisdom-liberated one (paaavimutta)." - -------- N: The noble disciples are classified according to the eight lokuttara cittas: the path-consciousness and the fruition- consciousness of each of the four stages of enlightenment. The treatises on the seven noble disciples shows how different peoples accumulated inclinations are. Some attain enlightenment after having developed mundane jhaanas and the lokuttara cittas can be accompanied by the jhaanafactors of the different stages of jhaana. Others develop only insight and then attain enlightenment; they are called sukha vipassakas, those with dry insight. As to these seven persons mentioned in the Sangitii Sutta, there are several differences in their faculties that can be discerned. They are explained in the Puggala Pa~n~natti and also in some suttas and their commentaries, such as in the Ki.taagiri Sutta. For the faith devotee the faculty of saddhaa, confidence, is predominant. The person liberated by faith is a person who has reached the path-consciousness of the sotaapanna with the faculty of saddhaa being predominant. The body-witness is a noble disciple reckoned from the fruit of stream-entry to the path of arahatship. For him the faculty of samaadhi is predominant and he can attain ruupa-jhaana and aruupa- jhaana. The Ki.taagiri sutta mentions that he has attained the peaceful immaterial deliverances (santaa vimokkhaa aaruppaa) whereas the Puggala Pa~n~natti states that he has attained the eight deliverances (a.t.thavimokkhaa). The eight deliverances pertain to ruupa-jhaana and aruupa-jhaana, and the cessation of perception and feeling (only accessible to non-returners and arahats who have developed the eight jhaanas and gained mastery in them). One who is liberated in both ways (ubhato-bhaaga-vimutta) is the arahat who has eradicated all defilements and has also attained the ruupa-jhaanas and aruupa-jhaanas. The dhammadevotee is someone who has reached the state of the sotaapanna for whom the faculty of wisdom is predominant. The vision attainer is a noble disciple reckoned from the fruit of stream-entry to the path of arahatship for whom the faculty of wisdom is predominant. For some ariyans the faculty of saddhaa, confidence, is predominant, for others the faculty of samaadhi, and for others again the faculty of wisdom, but all of them, no matter they could attain jhaana or not, had to develop all stages of insight, right from the beginning. They had to understand all realities appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. They were not negligent as to awareness and understanding of visible object that appeared. This is the only way to become detached from the outward appearance and details of things that are taken for a person or self. ----------- Nina. #113942 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Mar 7, 2011 11:15 pm Subject: Mental Hindrances... bhikkhu5 Friends: Mental Hindrances Block all Understanding! The Blessed Buddha once said: There are five obstructing obstacles and hindrances of the mind, which weakens knowledge. What five? The mental hindrance of Sense-Desire is an overgrowing blocking insight. The mental hindrance of Evil-Will is a fire-like mental stumbling block. The mental hindrance of Lethargy & Laziness is a slowing interruption. The mental hindrance of Restlessness & Regret is a stirring disturbance. The mental hindrance of Doubt & Uncertainty is an wall-like embankment. Without having overcome these Five Mental Hindrances, it is impossible for any Bhikkhu whose understanding thus lacks both strength and power, to understand what is to his own advantage, to other advantage, or to the advantage of both. That he should be capable of attaining a supra-human state: Noble Vision and Wisdom, that is indeed impossible... But if a Bhikkhu has overcome these Five Mental Hindrances, these five obstructing impediments, these overgrowths of the mind that dampen and diminish any understanding, then it is very likely that he will understand what is to his own advantage, others advantage, & the advantage of both. Thus unhindered is he quite capable of attaining any supra-human state: Noble Vision & Wisdom... It is like a fast flowing canal where a man opens up 5 draining side-channels, which then weakens, and diverts the strong midstream. Similarly is indeed this understanding stream of insight weakened and diluted in anyone who have not yet overcome these Five Mental Hindrances, which block knowing. However, if the man closes down all the 5 draining side-channels, one by one, then the midstream becomes stronger and can carry anything with it. Similarly with one unhindered by these 5 mental hindrances, his now freely flowing understanding stream of insight is neither weakened, nor polluted, nor diluted any, so he can easily recognize what is good for himself, others and both. That such unhindered friend should be capable of the state of Noble supra-human Vision and Wisdom, that is indeed possible... <...> Source (edited extract): The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikya. The Book of Fives 51: Unhindered... [III: 63-4] Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #113943 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Mar 8, 2011 10:42 pm Subject: The Charcoal Pit! bhikkhu5 Friends: Any Sense-Desire induces repeated Death! And how, Bhikkhus, are sense desires regarded by a Bhikkhu so that he weakens the latent tendency to sense desire, to lust for sensing, to sense mania, to sense infatuation, to sense addiction, and to sensual obsession? Imagine a Charcoal Pit deeper than a man's height, filled with red glowing coals without flame or smoke. A man who wishes life & not death, who wants happiness & not suffering, would pass by... Then two strong men would grab him firmly by both his arms and drag him towards that burning charcoal pit... In panic, that man would indeed wriggle & try to resist with all his might! For what reason? Because he understands: If I fall into this charcoal pit, then I will surely meet a terrible death or deadly pain! Exactly & even so, Bhikkhus, when a Bhikkhu has seen & comprehended, that any & all sense desire is similar to a Charcoal Pit, then the latent tendency to sense desire , to sensual lust, to sense mania, to sense infatuation, to mad sense addiction, & the deeply embedded latent tendency to sensual obsession fades away... Comment: The Two Strong Men of evil force are similar to Ignorance & Craving, which are the evil forces, that induce & reinforce disadvantageous sensual greed... The resulting craving is the cause & origin of all Suffering = 2nd Noble Truth! <....> Blissful is being without passions in this world, Blissful is the overcoming of all sense-desires! Udana II, 1 Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. Book IV [188-] 35: 6 Senses. Salayatana. States that entail Suffering. Dukkha-Dhamm 244. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #113944 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:29 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta nilovg Hi Howard, Op 9-mrt-2011, om 17:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It is a matter of illogic. The explanation does not pertain to how > consciousness arises from namarupa. Let me spell it out: ------- N: consciousness is conditioned by nama/rupa, it does not arise from nama/rupa. When speaking of conditions, there are many types. ------ > > "It was said: 'With mentality-materiality as condition there is > consciousness.' How that is so, Aananda, should be understood in this > way: If > consciousness were not to gain a footing in mentality-materiality, > would an > origination of the mass of suffering, of future birth, aging, and > death, be > discerned?" > --------------------------------------------------------- > H;The preceding does NOT explain how it is so that consciousness > arises > from namarupa. What it says is that the "origination of the mass of > suffering, of future birth, aging, and death" arises from > consciousness gaining a > footing in namarupa. > ------------------------------------------------- N: Gaining a footing: is supported by: nissaya-paccaya. One of the many conditions. Cetasikas support the citta they accompany. See my book on conditions, p. 47: < The dependence-condition, nissaya-paccaya, refers to realities which condition other realities by being their support or foundation. We read in the Visuddhimagga (XVII, 79) about dependence-condition, which is here translated as support-condition: A state (dhamma) that assists in the mode of foundation and in the mode of support is a support-condition, as the earth is for trees, as canvas is for paintings, and so on. This type of condition refers to phenomena which are conascent (arising together) with the phenomena they condition as well as to phenomena which have arisen previously to the phenomena they condition. We read in the Pa.t.thna (Analytical Exposition, 8) as to the dependence-condition for conascent phenomena: 1. The four immaterial khandhas are mutually related to one another by dependence-condition.... As to the first class, the four nmakkhandhas are mutually related to one another by conascent dependence-condition: citta and cetasikas always arise together and they are depending on one another. Citta cannot arise without cetasikas and cetasikas cannot arise without citta. As we have seen, they are also related to one another by way of conascence, sahajta, and by way of mutuality, aamaa. The teaching of dependence-condition, nissaya paccaya, reminds us that citta and cetasikas need one another to perform their functions. Citta is the chief in cognizing an object, and cetasikas share the same object while they perform each their own function. Feeling, vedan, and remembrance, sa, are cetasikas which arise with each citta. Citta is different from cetasika, it does not feel or remember; citta cognizes or knows the object. ...> - > -------------------------------------------------------- > H: That alleged conclusion is not at all what was shown. It is this > alleged conclusion that is a nonsequitor - it does not follow as a > logical > conclusion. I cannot clarify this further, Nina. > I strongly believe there is a serious problem with this sutta. > Something must be missing. > =========================== N: If we think that there is a problem with a sutta, could it be that it is our fault? That we do not understand the sutta? But, as Han has said, "no one can force anyone to believe in anything". -------- Nina. #113945 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics nilovg Dear Han, Thank you for your interesting posts about your own experiences in life. Op 10-mrt-2011, om 1:02 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Then, at the meeting, Jon and Sarah asked me what about pa~n~naa? I > said a basic pa~n~naa would be necessary for a beginner, but it may > not be necessary for a beginner to go into the higher level of > pa~n~naa such as "living at the present moment and understanding of > the naama and ruupa that appears at the present moment." > > Now, as I am writing this message, I realize that Jon and Sarah had > a good point. We should develop siila and pa~n~naa equally from the > very beginning. The two should be conascent and mutually supportive > of each other in their development. ------ N: Siila has many levels, many aspects, and there is also higher siila, adhi-siila. This goes together with satipa.t.thaana. When we read the Visuddhimagga we can see that the whole practice can be seen as siila: wholesomeness through body, speech and mind. Moreover, siila is also one of the perfections the Bodhisatta developed for aeons. I read your post on kamma and all your unhappy experiences at the dentist. We could say in general: being at the wrong time at the wrong place. But, as you will agree, kamma and result is the field of the Buddhas. We know very little about it. When we are more precise we can differentiate the different cittas: akusala cittas and kusala cittas, and vipaakacittas such as seeing, hearing and the other sense impressions. There may be a short moment of vipaaka, but we think of the story for a long time with akusala citta. Thus, when we say: it is my akusala kamma, is this not thinking of a situation, a story? There may be a lot of regret about negligence of our teeth and later on we experience the bad effects. It is hard to tell what is kamma what is vipaaka. I would say, it is mostly thinking of a long story with akusala citta. When we investigate more the different cittas we shall dwell less on 'my akusala kamma', because it is gone already. Now there is the present moment to be understood. Nina. #113946 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) nilovg Dear Colette, Op 7-mrt-2011, om 9:41 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > THEN why do they make "SURROUND SOUND SYSTEMS" that have speakers > in the chairs that people sit in so that the people can feel the > vibrations of the sound through their BODY-CONSCIOUSNESS (tactile > consciousness), or even the way a PROFOUNDLY DEAF PERSON "hears" or > "listens"? ------- N: Sure, this is possible. But when we read the suttas about seeing and hearing, normal seeing and hearing is meant. If people 'hear' through body-consciousness the reality is body-consciousness. But what matters most is this: whatever citta arises that experiences an object through one of the six doorways is not a person, not a self. This leads to detachment and detachment is the goal of the teachings. Nina. #113947 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:20 am Subject: Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: Siila has many levels, many aspects, and there is also higher siila, adhi-siila. This goes together with satipa.t.thaana. When we read the Visuddhimagga we can see that the whole practice can be seen as siila: wholesomeness through body, speech and mind. Moreover, siila is also one of the perfections the Bodhisatta developed for aeons. I read your post on kamma and all your unhappy experiences at the dentist. We could say in general: being at the wrong time at the wrong place. But, as you will agree, kamma and result is the field of the Buddhas. We know very little about it. When we are more precise we can differentiate the different cittas: akusala cittas and kusala cittas, and vipaakacittas such as seeing, hearing and the other sense impressions. There may be a short moment of vipaaka, but we think of the story for a long time with akusala citta. Thus, when we say: it is my akusala kamma, is this not thinking of a situation, a story? There may be a lot of regret about negligence of our teeth and later on we experience the bad effects. It is hard to tell what is kamma what is vipaaka. I would say, it is mostly thinking of a long story with akusala citta. When we investigate more the different cittas we shall dwell less on 'my akusala kamma', because it is gone already. Now there is the present moment to be understood. ---------- Han: Thank you very much for your kind comments about siila. I am also grateful to you for reminding me about kamma and vipaaka, and that kamma and its results are in the field of the Buddha. Your advice about the present moment is also well-taken. Respectfully, Han #113948 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/9/2011 10:59:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard, I have earlier shown how citta becomes a conditon for nama and rupa in the re-linking citta. Let me how say how nama and rupa becomes a condition for citta in the reverse D.O. commentary to DN15 pg 88 22. Therefore Ananda, this is the cause .... and condition for consciousness, namely, mentality - materiality Comy - (Mentality - Materiality is a condition for consciousness) in the way a king's offcers, restraining the king might say "Who was it made you king?" Didn't we do so? If you could become king alone, without one of us occupying the position of viceroy, another the position of general, then we would see what kind of king you are." In the same way, as it were, mentality- materiality might say to consciousness: "Who is it that make you the rebirth-linking consciousness? Didn't we do so? If you could become a rebirth-linking consciousness without the support of the other three mental aggregates and the heart-basis, then we would see what kind of rebirth-linking consciousness you are." Mentality-Materiality is a condition for consciousness in many ways. Dispeller of Delusion - pg 207 on citta and namarupa <<777 But are only the three aggregates mentality and is consciousness not called mentality? Not that it is not. But if it is included, there comes to be the co-presence of two kinds of consciousness, namely consciousness as mentality and consciousness as condition. Therefore, leaving consciousness in its place as condition, the three aggregates only are stated in order to show the mentality which is produced by the condition, >> Ken O ======================================== We are beating a dead horse. I have no doubt that namarupa serves as condition for vi~n~nana. What I maintain is that the particular passage of the particular sutta being discussed simply does not actually investigate that relationship. I've pointed that out several times, in detail. In friendship, I wish to drop the topic now. :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #113949 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. ashkenn2k Dear Ken H >--------------------------- > >KH: The dhammas that prompt the story "I am going to meditation" will inevitably > >contain some "wrong" volitions. Formal meditation is for people who want reality > >to be other than it is. They don't understand that all reality (desired and >undesired) is just dhammas. > > >Not only do they not have right understanding but, worse still, they have wrong >understanding. > > >So the people who go to the casino might possibly be better off than the people >who go to the meditation hall. The various volitions that prompt the casino >story will inevitably contain ignorance and craving, but not necessarily wrong >view. KO: We are not talking about casino. Let focus on dhamma topic. Firstly - where is it written in the text there is no formal meditation and it is wrong to do formal meditation. You should read the Visud on concentration because where it is written about mediation on the 32 parts or the foul and many others. If you claim it is only about nama and rupa, please show the text and not claims or intepretation about no formal meditation. I could show you the text it is written and not according to my interpretation or views. On "I am going to meditation", is there a difference in that I am going to DSG to listen to dhamma, or I am going to dhamma book. If you said the going to meditation is wrong, so why I am going to DSG to listen to dhamma is not wrong. So what is the difference. >------------------------- >>> KH: According to the Dhamma, no one goes anywhere. No one performs kusala >>>kamma, and no one performs akusala kamma. There are just momentary dhammas. >>> > >> KO: this is wrong view. >------------------------- > >KH: No, it is Dhamma. > >------------------------------ >> KO: You are like saying, there is no Father, >Mother, etc.. >------------------------------ > >KH: People can have a wrong understanding of the Dhamma and say the right words >for the wrong reasons. In reality there is no father or mother, but some people >think there is a self who has no father or mother. KO: You understanding of dhamma is what we called annihilist view. Your this views means there is no ownership of kamma. Let me quote you a sutta text pg 381 The Brahmins of Sala MN 41 <<10 ...... Or he has wrong view, distorted views, thus: There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this wolrd, nor other world; no mother, no father; no beings who are reborn spontatneuously; no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realise by direct knowledge and declare this world and other world.>> > >------------------------------------------- >> KO: Since there are only monetary dhamma, why do sons and daughther who kill >>their parents have to go the Avici hell. You like to explain this paradox. >> >------------------------------------------- > >KH: There is no paradox. In hell, just as here, 'mere suffering exists; no >sufferer is found.' (Vism.) KO: You have yet explain why kamma can be so different, there is weighty kamma in killing Mother while killing another human being is not weighty. Since all are just nama and rupa, should it be the same result in the cause by the killing. Why is there a difference in kamma result then as proclaim by the Buddha? Is he wrong in saying all these, or he might as well say it is just nama and rupa? why did he say such kamma results happen? Do you like to explain. Ken O #113950 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ----- <. . .> > KO: We are not talking about casino. Let focus on dhamma topic. ----------- KH: I give up. ------------- > KO: Firstly - where is it written in the text there is no formal meditation and it is wrong to do formal meditation. -------------- KH: I've given enough answers to that question, now you answer one of mine. Where in the texts does it say that the Buddha did not teach anatta? ------------------------- > KO: You should read the Visud on concentration because where it is written about mediation on the 32 parts or the foul and many others. ------------------------- KH: Where in the texts does it say that body parts (atta) and decaying corpses (also atta) really exist? ------------------------------------ > KO: If you claim it is only about nama and rupa, please show the text and not claims or intepretation about no formal meditation. I could show you the text it is written and not according to my interpretation or views. ------------------------------------ KH: I think you mean, 'and not according to anatta.' --------------------------------- > KO: On "I am going to meditation", is there a difference in that I am going to DSG to listen to dhamma, or I am going to dhamma book. If you said the going to meditation is wrong, so why I am going to DSG to listen to dhamma is not wrong. So what is the difference. ---------------------------------- KH: I have answered that question countless times, and as well as I could. Perhaps you will tell me: are concepts inherently right or wrong? Are they inherently good or evil? Do concepts have any inherent characteristics at all? What, if anything, can be ascertained from the concept of you or I going to a Dhamma discussion? What, if anything, can be ascertained from the concept of you or I going to a meditation retreat? --------------------------------------------- > KO: You understanding of dhamma is what we called annihilist view. Your this views means there is no ownership of kamma. Let me quote you a sutta text pg 381 The Brahmins of Sala MN 41 <<10 ...... Or he has wrong view, distorted views, thus: There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this wolrd, nor other world; no mother, no father; no beings who are reborn spontatneuously; no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realise by direct knowledge and declare this world and other world.>> ---------------------- KH: If you want to understand that as saying atta does exist then that is your prerogative. I prefer to understand it in accordance with anatta. ------------------------------ > KO: You have yet explain why kamma can be so different, there is weighty kamma in killing Mother while killing another human being is not weighty. Since all are just nama and rupa, should it be the same result in the cause by the killing. Why is there a difference in kamma result then as proclaim by the Buddha? Is he wrong in saying all these, or he might as well say it is just nama and rupa? why did he say such kamma results happen? Do you like to explain. ------------------------------- I can't be spoon-feeding you forever, Ken. Work it out for yourself. :-) Ken H #113951 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:41 pm Subject: The Grace of Goodwill! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to Beam & Extend Amity Universally: The Grace of Goodwill: A Meditation on Friendliness (Mett): May my mind be filled with the thought of Kind Friendliness & open Amity. May the minds of my good teachers be filled with the thought of Friendliness. May the minds of my parents and dear ones be filled with the thought of Friendliness. May the minds of all unfriendly persons be filled with the thought of Friendliness. May the minds of all living beings be filled with the thought of Friendliness. May the minds of all strangers be filled with the thought of Friendliness. May we be free from fear, tension, anxiety, worry, and restlessness. May our hearts become soft. May our words be pleasing to others. May we be generous. May we be gentle. May we be relaxed. May we be happy and peaceful. May we be healthy. May we be a source of pure peace and happiness. May the minds of everyone in this room be free from greed, anger, hatred, jealousy, and fear. May the peace and tranquillity of tender Friendliness pervade their entire bodies and minds. May they have good fortune. May they be prosperous. May they have really good friends May the minds of everyone in this building, in this street, in this city, in this nation on this continent, on this planet & in this universe be free from greed, anger, & doubt. May these thoughts of Friendliness embrace them, charge them and envelope them. May every cell, every drop of blood, every atom, be charged with kind amity. May the peace & tranquillity of goodwill pervade their entire bodies & minds. May they be happy-hearted. May they be free from worries and troubles. May all beings in all directions throughout this multiverse be happy. May they be filled with Friendliness, abundant, exalted, & infinite! May they be free from enmity affliction, and anxiety. May they live happily. May all beings in all directions, all around the universe be happy. May they have good fortune. May they be prosperous. May they be famous. May they have good friends. May they be reborn in a happy destination. May they be reborn in the heavens. May all beings Awaken swiftly! May they become thus Happy! Inspired by 2 really good friends. More on this shining, radiating through all & everywhere beaming Friendliness: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Infinite_Friendliness.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #113952 From: "philip" Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics philofillet Hi Nina and all Just got home, what a fantastic trip it was! Nina, now I can absolutely understand why you all have listened to A. Sujin for so long. Even after having listened to the recorded talks, to sit and talk with her right across the table was a really wonderful experience. Sarah made sure that all of "Phil's Pet Peeves" came up, and some of them are still not fully answered for me, but no matter, I have accumulations for my approach/understanding of sila, and so be it, that's me. Now I have a lot more confidence about understanding the present dhammas (Especially thanks to the teaching about nimitta, I had never been able to understand how we could be aware of one dhamma, but if there is the nimitta of many dhammas, that makes more sense.) Of course A. Sujin agreed that conventional sila is important, but "not enough." Bascially that's what it comes down to. I'm pretty tired from the overnight flight, so I'll write more later. And how great it was to meet Han! Thanks again Sarah (and Jon) for inviting me, and all the hospitality. Metta, Phil p.s needless to say I got a lot of teasing about saying I would leave DSG and coming back for the umpteenth time but that's a kind of vipaka I guess. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Han and Phil, > You must have had a wonderful time with dhamma discussions, I am > sure. I enjoyed reading about it. I hope Han (the dentist?) and Phil > will tell us more about it. > Nina. > > Op 7-mrt-2011, om 9:46 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > Lots of fun and to ensure that Phil doesn't go 'off-track' in > > Bangkok, Sukin arrived in time to escort him to meet and have > > another discussion with Rob K and other dhamma friends. > #113953 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:51 am Subject: Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Sarah, Jon, Phil, Sukin, Nina and others, 8. 5 fold and 8 fold path. Lokuttara cittas - 8 fold path, object is nibbana. 5 fold path doesn't include the virati cetasikas (right speech, action and livelihood) and yet 6 factors can arise together in the mundane path. The object must be the same. --------------- Han: At the meeting, I mentioned a Pali word which I rarely find in the books written by the Western scholars, but which is well-known in Burma, and taught by the Burmese Sayadaws with regard to vipassanaa meditation. That Pali word is "Pa~nca"ngika magga" (five-fold Path). [There is a sutta with a similar name: AN 10.12. Pa~nca"nga sutta, which is different. In this sutta the Buddha taught the monks to fulfill five an"gas or qualities, namely, siila (siilakkhandhaa), samaadhi (samaadhikkhandhaa), wisdom (pa~n~naakkhandhaa), release (vimuttikkhandhaa), and knowledge of release (vimutti~naa.nadassanakkhandhaa)] At *mundane level* when a meditator meditates on vipassanaa, he/she can meditate with only five Path, namely, two pa~n~naa magga"nga (sammaa di.t.thi, sammaa sankappa), and three samaadhi magga"nga (sammaa vaayaamo, sammaa sati, sammaa samaadhi). He can develop three siila magga"nga (sammaa vaacaa, sammaa kammanta, sammaa aajiiva) at other times, but not during vipassanaa meditation. Why? Because the objects of attention are different at the *mundane level*. The objects of attention for the five-fold Path are the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha, anatta of naama and ruupa; whereas the objects of attention for the three siila magga"nga are the objects to be abstain from. The most a meditator can develop together during meditation is a six-fold Path. For example, if a meditator is bitten by a mosquito during meditation, if he abstains from killing the mosquito, he is developing a six-fold Path at that moment. However, at the *supramundane level*, when the magga ~naa.na arises, the meditator develops all eight magga"ngas together. That is possible because, the objects of attention shift to a single object, that is, Nibbaana, at that moment. --------------- The following are the excerpts taken from The Manuals of Buddhism by Ledi Sayadaw. (excerpts from Magga"nga Dipani by Ledi Sayadaw) After observing the three constituents of the morality-group of the Eightfold Path, the practice of the wisdom-group of the Eightfold Path is undertaken. The three constituents of the concentration-group of the Eightfold Path come along together with the two constituents of the wisdom-group of the Eightfold Path, and these two sets are termed *pa~nca"ngika magga* (the five constituents of the Eightfold Path. (excerpts from Bodhipakkhiya Dipani by Ledi Sayadaw) Just as trees grow in the soil, the six visuddhi beginning with citta visuddhi develop in the soil of siila-visuddhi. In particular, siila visuddhi does not mix with the five middle visuddhi beginning with citta visuddha, but supports them by securing antecedent purity. In the case of lokuttara-~naa.nadasana visuddhi, siila visuddhi operates in conjunction with it as three constituents of siilakkhandha-magga"nga. The reason is, the objects of attention of siila visuddhi are of a different order from those of the five middle visuddhi, while they are identical with those of the lokuttara visuddhi, thus operating together with it as sahajaata (co-existent). --------------------- Kind regards, Han #113954 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vi~n~naa.na and Naama-Ruupa: DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta hantun1 Dear Friends, DN 15 Mahaanidaana sutta is one of the suttas approved by the Sixth Buddhist Council. The Sixth Buddhist Council was held at Rangoon, Burma, from Vesak 1954 to Vesak 1956. The Council was attended by 2,500 venerable monks from eight countries (Myanmar, Cambodia, India, Laos, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Thailand and Vietnam). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Buddhist_council http://www.pariyatti.org/ResourcesProjects/Treasures/ChatthaSangayana/tabid/78/D\ efault.aspx It took two years for the 2,500 venerable monks and a horde of Burmese scholars (serving as Secretariat) to finish the job. The Pali Tipi.taka and its allied literature in all the diverse national scripts were painstakingly examined, their differences noted, necessary corrections made, and all the versions collated. By the time the Council was over, all the participating countries had had the Tipi.taka rendered into their native scripts, with the exception of India. Ven. Nyanatiloka and Ven. Nyanaponika were involved in the preparatory work, and as well as during the entire period of the Council. The Pali text of the Tipi.taka approved by the Sixth Buddhist Council can be found at http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/ --------------- The following is the Pali passage taken from DN 15 approved by the Sixth Buddhist Council. 116. "'Naamaruupapaccayaa vi~n~naa.na'nti iti kho paneta.m vutta.m, tadaananda, iminaapeta.m pariyaayena veditabba.m, yathaa naamaruupapaccayaa vi~n~naa.na.m. Vi~n~naa.na~nca hi, aananda, naamaruupe pati.t.tha.m na labhissatha, api nu kho aayati.m jaatijaraamara.na.m dukkhasamudayasambhavo [jaatijaraamara.nadukkhasamudayasambhavo (sii. syaa. pii.)] pa~n~naayethaa"ti? "No heta.m, bhante". "Tasmaatihaananda, eseva hetu eta.m nidaana.m esa samudayo esa paccayo vi~n~naa.nassa yadida.m naamaruupa.m. Ettaavataa kho, aananda, jaayetha vaa jiiyetha [jiyyetha (ka.)] vaa miiyetha [miyyetha (ka.)] vaa cavetha vaa upapajjetha vaa. Ettaavataa adhivacanapatho, ettaavataa niruttipatho, ettaavataa pa~n~nattipatho, ettaavataa pa~n~naavacara.m, ettaavataa va.t.ta.m vattati itthatta.m pa~n~naapanaaya yadida.m naamaruupa.m saha vi~n~naa.nena a~n~nama~n~napaccayataa pavattati. --------------- The following is the translation by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi of the above Pali passage. 22. "It was said: 'With mentality-materiality as condition there is consciousness.' How that is so, Aananda, should be understood in this way: If consciousness were not to gain a footing in mentality-materiality, would an origination of the mass of suffering, of future birth, aging, and death, be discerned?" "Certainly not, venerable sir." "Therefore, Aananda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for consciousness, namely mentality-materiality. "It is to this extent, Aananda, that one can be born, age, and die, pass away and re-arise, to this extent that there is a pathway for designation, to this extent that there is a pathway for language, to this extent that there is a pathway for description, to this extent that there is a sphere for wisdom, to this extent that the round turns for describing this state of being, that is, when there is mentality-materiality together with consciousness." --------------- Kind regards, Han #113955 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. ashkenn2k Dear Ken H >----- ><. . .> >> KO: We are not talking about casino. Let focus on dhamma topic. >----------- > >KH: I give up. > >------------- >> KO: Firstly - where is it written in the text there is no formal meditation and >> >>it is wrong to do formal meditation. >> >-------------- > >KH: I've given enough answers to that question, now you answer one of mine. >Where in the texts does it say that the Buddha did not teach anatta? KO: anatta can be learn from concepts as well, where in the text say that anatta cannot be learn from concepts. I could also give quotes in the suttas where anatta is learn from concepts. >------------------------- >> KO: You should read the Visud on concentration because where >it is written about mediation on the 32 parts or the foul and many others. >------------------------- > >KH: Where in the texts does it say that body parts (atta) and decaying corpses >(also atta) really exist? > KO: So you are saying these are written wrongly in the text is written wrongly, including recollection of Buddha. >------------------------------------ >> KO: If you claim it is only about nama and rupa, please show the text and not >>claims or intepretation about no formal meditation. I could show you the text it >> >>is written and not according to my interpretation or views. >> >------------------------------------ > >KH: I think you mean, 'and not according to anatta.' KO: Nope, according to the text. > >--------------------------------- >> KO: On "I am going to meditation", is there a difference in that I am going to > >>DSG to listen to dhamma, or I am going to dhamma book. If you said the going to > >>meditation is wrong, so why I am going to DSG to listen to dhamma is not >wrong. So what is the difference. >---------------------------------- > >KH: I have answered that question countless times, and as well as I could. > >Perhaps you will tell me: are concepts inherently right or wrong? Are they >inherently good or evil? Do concepts have any inherent characteristics at all? >What, if anything, can be ascertained from the concept of you or I going to a >Dhamma discussion? What, if anything, can be ascertained from the concept of you > >or I going to a meditation retreat? > KO: whats wrong with concept, do you mean those ancients used concepts to learn Buddhism are all wrong? You should read the text where many of the practitioners of body parts or foul from there to vipassana to enlightement. You should read more and stop having your own thinking of anatta which is not in accordance with Buddha's teaching. Your obsession with what actually exists and only this can be used for development is not correct, not accordance to the Buddha teachings. I can also quote the text why I say your such view is not correct, and why concepts and paramattha dhammas are all can be used for development. >--------------------------------------------- >> KO: You understanding of dhamma is what we called annihilist view. Your this >views means there is no ownership of kamma. Let me quote you a sutta text > >pg 381 The Brahmins of Sala MN 41 > ><<10 ...... Or he has wrong view, distorted views, thus: There is nothing given, > >nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; > >no this wolrd, nor other world; no mother, no father; no beings who are reborn >spontatneuously; no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who >have themselves realise by direct knowledge and declare this world and other >world.>> >---------------------- > >KH: If you want to understand that as saying atta does exist then that is your >prerogative. I prefer to understand it in accordance with anatta. KO: I leave it to you to continue believe this view because I already advice you, it is wrong view. You could always ask your DSGers what you said is wrong or right view. I am most happy to hear their views as well if they think there is no father no mother, which is annhilistic point of view. >------------------------------ >> KO: You have yet explain why kamma can be so different, there is weighty kamma > >>in killing Mother while killing another human being is not weighty. Since all >>are just nama and rupa, should it be the same result in the cause by the >>killing. Why is there a difference in kamma result then as proclaim by the >>Buddha? Is he wrong in saying all these, or he might as well say it is just nama >> >>and rupa? why did he say such kamma results happen? Do you like to explain. >> >------------------------------- > >I can't be spoon-feeding you forever, Ken. Work it out for yourself. :-) KO: Nope because I am confident you cannot explain. So dont say spoon feeding. But I can explain, and when I explain it is not from my own point of view, it is quoting the texts. Ken O #113956 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& all), --- On Fri, 11/3/11, philip wrote: >Just got home, what a fantastic trip it was! .... S: So glad and relieved to see your message as it was a very long day for you yesterday and you must be exhausted. Lots of stories on my part, of course! And now more stories as I've just seen pictures of the earthquake and tsunami that's hit Japan and heard many flights into Tokyo have been cancelled, so very relieved that you arrived safely. Without your "poetic" way with words, I can't describe to others how truly wonderful it was to spend time together and have you with us in the discussions. I particularly appreciated your lively, enthusiastic approach to the Dhamma and great questions/points raised with K.Sujin which we all benefited so much from. I also appreciated your kind, considerate manners and care of everyone. Thank you so much for joining us and hope the cold is not too bad! Here are a few (rough!) quotes from the discussions I jotted down from the first lunch-time: "To be good is not enough if there's still the idea of 'I' as that person. The point of this life is just 'understand' - understand whatever it is, because when akusala arises there can be understanding of that. Otherwise one is moved by the idea of self or me who is so bad or so good." "Some people always come (back) to oneself after listening to the Dhamma - 'how much I know....', 'how can I be aware more....'. At the moment of listening, (there) should be the understanding better and better - like now - visible object." "Courage is standing up against avijja and (the idea of a) quiet place!" "Detachment from 5 khandhas - even memory about everything now! All gone and thinking about it with attachment and ignorance, instead of understanding the thinking as a reality." "No self really means no self!" Metta Sarah p.s To all - I hardly jotted down any notes as for all the discussions (apart from some of the last one), I was holding a microphone for K.Sujin to speak into. I'll leave Phil to elaborated on the PPP's (Phil's Pet Peeves) and discussions just if he feels inclined to do so. Perhaps Ann and Azita may also feel like sharing some of their notes in due course. ======= #113957 From: Rajesh Patil Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:38 am Subject: Tsunami: Are you in Japan? Are you safe? rajpat_00 Dear Brothers and Sisters of Japan, In afternoon, I saw the news of Tsunami in Japan. BBC channel showed cars, ships and even buildings being swept away by a vast wall of water after the 8.9-magnitude earthquake. We pray for your safety. with metta Rajesh Make India Buddhist #113958 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:33 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (113603) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > ... > Please note at the beginning, as direct evidence of my view on this matter, the following introduction: > > "Now the BEGINNER who is of good birth should attend to the subject first by means of counting." > > Case closed? I'm sure you'll say that the 'good birth' means that they had already accumulated the tendency for samatha, but it still says BEGINNER, no matter what else. > =============== J: Well, I would say he is a relative beginner in terms of jhana attainment, but advanced when compared to the run-of-the-mill lay follower (the likes of you and me ;-)). And yes, there is significance in the expression "who is of good birth". > =============== > > J: It would not be correct, for obvious reasons I think, to say the world of dhammas has nothing to do with the worldling's life. After all, dhammas are very much 'of samsara'. > > Well the question is whether our ordinary life as we experience it are subject for development of mindfulness and discernment of anicca and anatta. I think they are, just not on the highest level, but the mundane path is part of true development in my view. > =============== J: The mundane path, as referred to in the texts, is a moment of awareness/insight (into the true nature of a presently arising dhamma). All moments of awareness/insight are mundane (lokiya, literally, 'worldly'), except the actual moments of enlightenment which are supramundane (lokuttara, literally 'beyond the world'). So yes, the mundane path is part and parcel of the development of the path. However, this is quite different from what you've been describing in recent posts, and which you referred to at one stage as the conventional path (and above as the mundane path). > =============== > > But it can I think be said that the world of dhammas is a different world to the world of concepts (people, things and ideas), since it's a world that becomes apparent only to developed panna. > > The question is whether the world of concepts is a deluded view of dhammas, or not a view of dhammas at all. My view is that there is a continuum between seeing ordinary objects and life-situations clearly, applying the understanding of anicca and anatta to them, and the greater understanding and ability to see the actual experiential objects in the moment. > =============== J: You mention a practice involving 'seeing ordinary objects and life-situations clearly, and applying the understanding of anicca and anatta to them'. My question would be, Where does the understanding of anicca and anatta come from in the first place? Without actual awareness of dhammas having been developed, it can only be an *idea* of what these terms mean, rather than an *experienced* understanding of them. In the suttas, the terms anicca and anatta are invariably linked to the direct experience of dhammas. They are characteristics/aspects that are to be experienced by panna, rather than something to be conceptualised about and then 'applied' (whether to dhammas or to conventional objects). > =============== > I think I agree with this; it's just that the particular person's voice breaks down into the dhammas of sound, and the dhammas of sound are the constituents that are "woven" by citta into conventional objects. There's a recognition of the same dhammas constituting both, just not experienced in the same way. > =============== J: I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. The starting point must be that what is experienced by hearing consciousness is just sound/audible object. The perception/recognition of a particular persons' voice, meaning of words spoken, etc, occurs subsequent to those moments of hearing consciousness, and is the work of the multiple mind-door processes that follow each moment of sense-door experience. It is not the teaching, as far as I understand it, that the sound experienced started out as a person's voice that then 'breaks down' into sound dhammas. That would be something that is assumed about the experienced audible object rather than something known by direct experience. The development of insight is about the direct experience of presently arising dhammas. It is the characteristic of these that are to be understood, rather than an understanding of, for example, how certain external rupas come to be experienced. > =============== I can easily imagine the arahant going back and forth - able to navigate the conventional view and slip into seeing the exact dhammas whenever there is no conventional task or recognition at hand. That makes sense. The radical split view is a much less workable one in my view. In that view one is waiting for something to arise that will come much later and there is not much to do now. > =============== J: So now I'm a 'radical splittist'? I'll add that one to my collection ;-)) Along with the synopsis of the radical split view that 'there's not much to do now, one must wait for something to arise, probably much later'. I'd agree there's not much prospect there ;-)) > =============== The continuum view allows Dhamma to be applied at *any* level of understanding and develop further in any given lifetime. One doesn't have to wait for the ultimate view to arise to understand one's place on the path. > =============== J: Your continuum view of the development of insight seems to be based on the idea that it would allow quicker attainment of enlightenment ;-)) Jon #113959 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:49 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (113603) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > ... > > [J:] Similarly, a computer monitor does not break down into visible object. > > [RE] I disagree. The concept of a computer monitor is formed by visible object + interpretation, not interpretation *without* visible object. > =============== J: Right. The concept of a computer monitor is formed by the mind on the basis of the experience of visible object. I've not been saying otherwise. But this doesn't mean that there is something called a computer monitor to begin with that 'breaks down' into visible object. That is a projection or assumption based on how we think about the world conventionally. It's not how the world is actually experienced, in absolute terms. > =============== The radical separation that you are creating is not necessary, and in my view not accurate. It denies the path for unenlightened worldlings in my view rather than supports it. > =============== J: I don't see where there is any denial of a path. Simply put, while things are not seen to be as they are in actuality, because of accumulated ignorance and wrong view, the hearing of how things actually are can condition the arising of awareness and understanding that gradually erodes that ignorance and wrong view. To the unenlightened being, computer monitor (for example) is regarded as a part of the reality of the world. In absolute terms, as explained in the teachings, there is the experiencing of visible object with lots of levels of thinking/processing overlaid on that. The enlightened person still has multiple levels of thinking/processing following the sense-door experience, but he no longer takes anything for being other than as it is in the absolute sense. > =============== > I think pariyatti will arise a lot more relevantly and quickly when our everyday view is seen as breaking down into paramatha dhammas, rather than being irrelevant. > =============== J: And if pariyatti arises a lot more quickly, enlightenment will come sooner ;-)) Seriously though, did the Buddha teach his followers to break everyday objects down into paramattha dhammas? I don't think so. He taught them what paramattha dhammas are, and the development of the understanding of their characteristics. > =============== > > J: No, I do not see the 5 khandhas as occurring in an alternate universe; they are very much part of samsara. In fact, to my understanding of the teachings, the 5 khandhas are the only things that can truly be said to be *occurring* now. > > [RE] Then they must be part of everything we experience, not just the "real view" of dhammas, but also the false view, only misinterpreted, not obliterated. Dhammas are the constituent elements of *every* perception, whether that perception is correct or false. > =============== J: Yes, agreed. > =============== > > [J] The rest, that is to say, the world as conventionally perceived, is the product of mental construction (not that there's anything 'wrong' with that). > > [RE] Mental construction is constructed from what? What is the object of mental construction? It is proliferations of dhammas is it not? > =============== J: Mental construction construes. It's object is concepts. Not all thinking of this kind is proliferation; the enlightened being also mentally construes based on objects experienced through the sense-doors. > =============== > I see mindfulness as an actual skill of mind, not something that arises only in the purest of conditions. I think it's something that can be developed within ordinary perceptions as one sees more clearly what they really are - rupas and namas, and then sees them break down more distinctively as one develops mindfulness. > =============== J: Regarding your statement about mindfulness as being "something that can be developed within ordinary perceptions as one sees more clearly what [ordinary perceptions] really are - rupas and namas". There is some circularity here ;-)) Seeing more clearly that what are regarded as ordinary perceptions are really just namas and rupas can only occur if there is actual mindfulness (unless you mean seeing more clearly at an intellectual level). If you are talking about some other kind of 'seeing things more clearly', then what ensures cannot the mindfulness spoken of in the teachings. Mindfulness is not something that can be made to arise by dint of any 'practice' (such as focusing on something, looking at things in a certain way, etc). It can arise only when mindfulness that has been previously accumulated (but is otherwise latent) is conditioned to re-arise. This will occur at a time, and with an object, that is not of any person's choosing. However, this is not to say that there is a 'practice' of doing nothing and waiting for something to happen. As mentioned before, the development of the path involves neither doing certain particular things nor doing nothing and waiting for things to happen. > =============== > > J: The dhammas (khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas, etc.) are of samsara and it is dhammas that need to be seen as they truly are. > > It's all dhammas all the way down - including deluded perceptions, which are namas. > =============== J: Yes, agreed. And all are potentially object of awareness/insight ;-)) Jon #113960 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:56 pm Subject: Re: Khandhas and samsara (was, A lovely dream ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (113604) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi again Jon. > ... > Just thought I'd throw in another quote from the Vis on counting breaths as a developmental practice. I'd be interested in your comments on this: > > "...he should dispel drowsiness due to over-eating and, being seated at ease, gladden the heart with recollection of the qualities of the Three Gems, and...give attention to this subject of mindfulness as to respiration. > > ... > > "And herein is the procedure of his attention: counting, connection, touching, fixing, noting, turning away, purification, and the viewing of them. Of these, counting is just counting (the breathings); connection is sequence (of mindfulness after breathings); touching is touching the places of contact (i.e., nostrils); fixing is applying (mind to Jhana); noting is discerning; turning away is the Path; purification is the fruition; and the viewing of them is reflection.When he takes his mind out together with the outgoing breath it becomes distracted by many objects outside. Only by developing with his mindfulness fixed on each point of contact, does he attain to success. Hence it was said " without apprehending the breath that is within or without, he should count with speed in the way described.'' > > "But how long is he to go on counting? Until, without the help of counting, his mindfulness is established on the breathings as object. For counting serves the purpose of cutting off thoughts which run after external things, and establishing mindfulness on the breathings as object. > > "Having thus directed his attention by means of counting, he should direct it by means of connection. Connection is the ceaseless pursuit of the breathings by mindfulness after counting has been given up..." > > In other words, a sequence is described in developing concentration with breath as object that starts with counting - for beginners - and then continues with "connection" and 5 more highly advanced stages, each one taking up where the other leaves off. > ... > How would you interpret this? > =============== J: I would interpret it as a reference to counting with (already developed) kusala which has breath as object. I would not see it as saying, for example, that persons who have not so far developed kusala with breath as object could, by counting while they 'focus' on breathing, have more kusala. What would be the basis for kusala in that case? Jon #113961 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:01 pm Subject: Re: How can killiing or stealing not be a conventional deed? jonoabb Hi Robert E (113605) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > [J] The meaning is this: the avoiding of an evil deed may be done with kusala or with akusala mind states, or with a mixture of both. Insofar as an avoiding is done with akusala mindstates, it is itself an akusala (i.e., 'evil') deed. > > Yes, but the question is: what makes the evil deed evil in the first place? If a *deed* can be described as evil, it is the act that is evil and not only the intention that one may have in doing it or refraining from doing it. > =============== J: In the suttas, there is the characterising/generalising of an 'evil deed', just as there is the characterising/generalising of a 'person'. However, it is understood as between the speaker and the (soon to be enlightened) listener that what is being referred to is the underlying dhamma/s. Jon #113962 From: "Jessica" Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:10 pm Subject: Bahiya Sutta jessicamui Dear Dhamma Friends, While reading the Bahiya Sutta - Ud 1.10 PTS: Ud 6, translated by Ven. Thanissaro: ".. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." I saw a couple different translations. Would like to have comments on what is "that", "there", & "here" and "between the two". Thanks in advance for your help ! Metta, Jessica. #113963 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:18 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses jonoabb Hi Alex (113619) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Jon, all, > ... > Basically I agree with what you've said above. I just believe that recollection on major changes (aging, sickness, bodily pain, death, etc) is a very powerful tool to cut lust and belief in ownership of the body. > =============== J: I agree that recollection of the foulness of the body, if kusala, can be a condition for the (temporary) suppression of lust. This would be an instance of samatha. But the belief in the ownership of the body can only be eroded by virtue of dhammas being seen as dhammas/dhatus (mere impersonal elements). > =============== > Most people do their best to avoid contemplating these things. They don't want to remove all craving, they think that desire is good. > > My parents (to my shock) seem to think that desire (tanha) is good. > It seems that the most common wrong view is to think that desire is good. While "aging, sickness & death" is obvious to most people, they typically ignore it and think about positive, life-affirming ideas. > > They don't see the danger in tanha. > =============== J: Agreed, but many people are capable of some understanding of the dangers of craving, in the conventional sense, if they have it explained to them in appropriate circumstances. It's not an idea that needs the hearing of the Dhamma to be appreciated. > =============== > >J:Thanks for the sutta passage. First, this is not being given >as >a contemplation to be *done*; it describes the reaction of >someone >when seeing a corpse. > > [A] Is that reaction a contemplation? Something that occurs? > > Isn't the arduous path of meditation and dhutanga practice a reaction of someone who has seen the danger of craving and samsara? It is something that occurs due to appropriate causes & conditions. > =============== J: Yes, but the reaction I was speaking of is something that *occurs*. It's not something that is (consciously/deliberately) *done* or undertaken. Jon #113964 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya Sutta sarahprocter... Hi Jessica, Good to see you around - perhaps we'll catch up soon! --- On Fri, 11/3/11, Jessica wrote: From: Jessica >While reading the Bahiya Sutta - Ud 1.10 PTS: Ud 6, translated by Ven. Thanissaro: >".. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." >I saw a couple different translations. Would like to have comments on what is "that", "there", & "here" and "between the two". .... S: As it happens, I wrote a series of posts on the Bahiya Sutta (see some in 'Useful Posts' under 'Bahiya'). This is from #30697 when another friend raised similar points: >S:.....Let me add the Peter Masefield translation with commentary notes on the phrases you ask about at the end, [my asterisks for the phrases you ask about]: "There, Baahiya, you should so train yourself that with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen,........cognised - so should you, Baahiya, train yourself. When for you, Baahiya, with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen,......cognised, then you, Baahiya, will not be *therewith*. When you, Baahiya, are not *therewith*, then you, Baahiya, will not be *therein*. When you , Baahiya, are not *therein*, then you, Baahiya, will be neither here nor there nor, additionally, in both - this alone is the end of dukkha". ..... Udana 1:10 commentary to just the last part. [Square brackets give my insertions taken from PM's notes]: ">Therewith (tena)<: with that seen and so on, or alternatively with that lust and so forth that is subject to the seen and so on.[tena di.t.thaadinaa di.t.thaadipa.tibaddhena raagaadinaa vaa]. This is what is said: "Baahiya, at such time as, or alternatively as a result of that reason by means of which, there will be for you, as you are practising the method spoken of by me, with respect to the seen and so on merely the seen and so forth, through unequivocal awareness as to their own nature [sabhava], at that time, or alternatively as a result of that [tena va] reason, you will not be in concert with that lust and so on [raagaadinaa saha na bhavissasi] that is subject to the seen and so forth, you will not be either excited or blemished or deluded, or alternatively you will not be subject, in concert with the seen and so on, (thereto,) on account of your being one for whom lust and so on are abandoned [pahiinaraagaadikattaa]." >Then you, Baahiya, will not be therein (tato tva.m Baahiya na tattha)<: when, or alternatively since, you will be neither excited with [these refs to 'with' refer back to >therewith (tena)< above] that lust [tena raagena vaa ratto], blemished with that anger, nor deluded with that delusion, then, or alternatively therefore, you will not be therein, in that seen and so on, you will not be attached, established, either in that seen or in that heard, sensed, cognised, by way of craving, conceit and (wrong) view thinking "This is mine, this I am, this is for me the self" - to this extent there is indicated, by causing full understanding as to abandoning to reach the summit, the plane of the one in whom the aasavas have been destroyed. >Then you, Baahiya, will be neither here nor there nor, additionally, in both (tato tva.m Baahiya nev'idha na hura.m na ubhayamantarena)<: when you, Baahiya, will not be therein, subject to the seen and so forth, with that lust and so on, then you will be neither in this world nor in the next world, nor also [pi] in both [ubhayattha]. >This alone is the end of dukkha (es'ev'anto dukkhassa)<: for this alone is the end, this the demarcation, limitation [paricchedo pariva.tumabhaavo], of dukkha in the form of the defilements and of dukkha belonging to the cycle......' " J:>Thanks in advance for your help ! ... S: Welcome! Let us know what you're working on these days! Metta Sarah ==== #113965 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:53 pm Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa jonoabb Hi Robert E (113625) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: And when you do come across it you may find that it doesn't quite match your recollection of it ;-)) I'm fairly confident that the Buddha never said, in the context of the development of the path, "If you want to achieve Y, then do some Xing", or anything like it. > > [RE] I remember it clearly enough to say it was in that form. He said rather stridently, and gave a number of different examples one after the other, of the qualities that one could willfully put into the meditation if they wanted to develop this or that quality. > > It was almost as if he anticipated the later rise of Tony Robbins. > :-))) > > We discussed it here just a few months ago - maybe someone will remember this sutta...? > =============== J: Hope you don't mind if I say that, while I'm sure you're speaking to the best of your recollection, I'd like to see the text before I comment further (of course, no problem if it can't be found). ;-)) > =============== > [On the subject of the extent to which teachings other than that on satipatthana, etc. were already known] > > For instance, if jhana had been known as a kusala form of absorption and a beneficial state to achieve in its own right, as it was in yoga and other disciplines, then it was only Buddha who pointed out that one could use the jhanas to develop insight by suppressing defilements and cultivating mindfulness even while the mind was deeply concentrated. His technical understanding of how to use and cultivate samatha/jhana and sati/satipatthana together is one of his most skillful contributions. > =============== J: The idea of the Buddha pointing out *how the jhanas could be used to develop insight by suppressing defilements and cultivating mindfulness while the mind is deeply concentrated* is very much an interpretation of the suttas rather than a direct quote from them. The orthodox Theravadan interpretation of suttas such as the Anapanasati Sutta and the Satipatthana Sutta is that the Buddha was explaining how, for the person developing jhana, insight could be developed at the same time (including insight having the just fallen away jhaana citta as object), with the further possibility that if enlightenment occurred it could be with jhana as basis (i.e., with the just fallen away jhana citta as object of insight immediately preceding the magga citta). But jhana as such was already known. > =============== > In a sense you can't really separate out his understanding of the "old tools" such as jhana, and the "new tools" such as satipatthana. He himself called it the "eightfold path," not the "set of new and old tools which you can choose from." Jhana/concentration was an intrinsic ingredient in the full development of insight and wisdom, and he showed where it fit in the system, along with everything else. > =============== J: Well, yes, he did show where jhana fitted into the scheme of things. But the question is what he said and meant in that regard. > =============== > Where I stand is that I think there is a dual use of conventional applications of the teachings. I think they are part of the stepping stones of the path - and in that sense not merely "preliminary." It's where everyone lives and begins to contemplate the Dhamma. So I think conventional understanding of the path has a definite place in the path, and not just ultimate reality. > =============== J: But are you suggesting that the role of such conventional understanding could be any other than to support an understanding of dhammas, this latter being the real gist of the teachings? > =============== > And secondly, I think that conventional contemplation and conceptual understanding of the elements of the path can be converted at any time into direct insight via a moment of discernment. > =============== J: Yes, correct conceptual understanding of dhammas is a prerequisite for the arising of awareness of/insight into dhammas. But the latter occurs at a time, and with an objet, that is not of anyone's choosing. There is no 'converting' from one to the other by choice/deliberate intention. > =============== As is often said here, a moment of panna or vipassana can arise any time. I think that conventional insight and mindfulness practice create the potential for unanticipated conversions into more direct seeing. > =============== J: The idea of 'conventional insight and mindfulness practice' is not one that had ever been canvassed in the Theravada texts, to my knowledge. A definite 'interpretation', I think ;-)). > =============== So in that sense it *is* the path. We just never know when it is going to strike. > =============== J: Regarding your: "We just never know when it [panna] is going to strike." Couldn't have put it better myself!! Jon #113966 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:03 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses truth_aerator Hello Jon, RobertK2, Nina, Sarah, KenH, Sukin, all, >J: But the belief in the ownership of the body can only be eroded >by virtue of dhammas being seen as dhammas/dhatus (mere impersonal >elements). Is there a sutta that states it in such categorical terms? It seems that "conventional" kayagatasati can, if done properly, lead to the path. > J: Agreed, but many people are capable of some understanding of >the dangers of craving, in the conventional sense, if they have it >explained to them in appropriate circumstances. It's not an idea >that needs the hearing of the Dhamma to be appreciated. Buddha explained it much better than any other teachers can. Direct insight is required into 4NT. > J: Yes, but the reaction I was speaking of is something that >*occurs*. It's not something that is (consciously/deliberately) >*done* or undertaken. Everything occurs, so you can't separate what is deliberately done (and thus does not occur) vs what occurs. Lets take these examples: A person wants to become big and strong. He goes to the gym, workouts out, eats right, etc and etc. After sometime, when all conditions have been met, the person is big and strong. Or a person is beaten up by thugs. He trains in martial arts and becomes very skillful in beating people up. He goes and beats up his assailants... Of course every desire, action, condition, has "occurred". There is no freedom of will or deliberate choice done by "Atta" (there isn't anatta). There were probably lots of subconscious forces acting on that person. No freedom of will, and everything has occurred. Does this mean that training is not necessary? Does this mean that training cannot occur? Can a person without any training or conditioning become MUCH MUCH better? No. Same with Buddhist path. With metta, Alex #113967 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:21 pm Subject: Will Be Away 3/13 Through 3/19 upasaka_howard Hi, all - I will be out of state on vacation 3/13 through 3/19. I will do some email checking on my cell but very little emailing, because I only have an on-screen keyboard, and I'm not so adept with it. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #113968 From: patrick ohearn Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya Sutta mntcdespatricko Hello Jessica, I would like to share my understanding of the sutta. I have not had an opportunity to discuss this with anyone. ".. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." You asked, "Would like to have comments on what is "that", "there", & "here" and "between the two". "–––––––––––––––––––––"...When there is no you in terms of that [the six sense spheres], there is no you there [the world of the sensed]. When there is no you there, you are neither here [within the body. identifying with form, feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness] nor yonder [outside the body. identifying with others or the universe as self] nor between the two [identifying with the body and universe together, or awareness or consciousness]. This, just this, is the end of stress." This accords with my understanding of the sutta. A sense of self is built out of various impersonal dhammas/processes within experience. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, and observing thought with a pure understanding means seeing the object in and of itself, as it really is. This is not me. This is not mine. This I am not. This object is impermanent, dependent on causes, fabricated out of ever changing elements. This object is a distraction, a weight caught in the net of awareness. It is stressful. Thinking, "There is a flower" is much less stressful than thinking, "I see my beautiful yellow daffodil. It has been beautiful in the past and will continue to be beautiful in the future. It was given to me in the past and will continue to be mine in the future." It is not as stressful when we just observe. When we cling to things we set ourselves up for future suffering. The flower will not beautiful forever. It will wilt and fade. It will decay and return to the earth. When the beauty fades there will be no joy at the sight of it. We cannot possess the flower when we die. The flower is only in our reach for a short time. We can look upon it and use it for a short time. When the flower decays, crumbles in our grasp and the wind carries it away we will feel the pain of loss. Smile. There is a flower. Let it be. I hope this was helpful. This is one of my favorite suttas. I have pondered on it often. May you be happy and peaceful,Patrick Be Observant.Speak Truth --- On Fri, 3/11/11, Jessica wrote: From: Jessica <....> >While reading the Bahiya Sutta - Ud 1.10 PTS: Ud 6, translated by Ven. Thanissaro: ".. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." <....> #113969 From: "philip" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:41 am Subject: Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics philofillet Hi Han and all It was so good to meet you, Han, you shine with wisdom and good cheer, and good health too. I'm glad your UN masquerade went well! > At the meeting, we discussed a lot about siila. I said with regard to the gradual training in "siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa", siila is the most important for a beginner. In another triad, "daana, siila, bhaavanaa", here again, siila is the most important. Without siila, one's daana would not be that beneficial. In Burma, in every religious ceremony, including daana, we start the proceedings with the observance of the five precepts. Among our Elders there were some who died peacefully while asleep, and we attribute that to the good siila of that Elder. Thus, siila is the *roots* of all meritorious deeds. Ph: Yes, I remember you said that we can imagine how the world would be if everyone simply kept the five precepts. Truly it would be a better place. But of course we all understand that that is just a beginning and in itself will not make any liberating impact on the defilements. But good to hold back their most devestating expressions, no matter what! > Then, at the meeting, Jon and Sarah asked me what about pa~n~naa? I said a basic pa~n~naa would be necessary for a beginner, but it may not be necessary for a beginner to go into the higher level of pa~n~naa such as "living at the present moment and understanding of the naama and ruupa that appears at the present moment." > > Now, as I am writing this message, I realize that Jon and Sarah had a good point. We should develop siila and pa~n~naa equally from the very beginning. The two should be conascent and mutually supportive of each other in their development. Ph: I have to say honestly that listening to Acharn Sujin for a few days had an impact unlike anything I have experienced from reading internet posts about understanding of the presently arisen dhammas, etc. It could be that my mind is very open to suggestion and as Sarah joked with me once that people could say I was brainwashed, but something clicked. She of course acknowledged that a conventional understanding of sila is important (only a very deluded person would deny that) but it is "not enough." I liked those words a lot and keep thinking about them. A lot of the stories I build up about being this sort of person or that sort of person are really made moot by moments of understanding seeing and visible object, for example. For example, how interesting to reflect that the seeing citta is dark, only visible object is light, all other cittas are dark. Does understanding that protect against bad behaviour? No. But I do feel these days more than in the past that if understanding of the present moment is developed, sila is sure to develop as well. I will still put a lot of emphasis on being a good person, that is my accumulated tendency and I am grateful for it, but I think there is more confidence now about understanding the present moment. You know, I used to shy away from that because of thinking that people who were interested in that sort of thing were just sucking pleasure out of thinking about momentary dhammas in an interesting way, and I am still aware a lot of the time that that is what is going on in my mind, but that is another story that can be cut through and made moot by any moments of panna actually developing. And I do feel more confident about panna developing. Brainwashed? Possibly, but could be a very beneficial brainwashing! I hope we have a chance to meet next year as well, Han. Thanks to my Air Canada miles, I will be able to visit Thailand once a year, I think. Or perhaps even this Autumn! Metta, Phil p.s one thing I still am not convinved about is dismissing meditation. I can see how some people who become fiercely devoted to it and say that it is the only way to develop understanding could develop a harmful wrong view, but if sitting and watching what kind of akusala visitors arise in the mind is something we can do as a natural part of our daily life I don't see any more wrong view involved in it than there is in desiring to develop panna in daily life by understanding presently arisen dhammas. There is always lobha at work in anything we do, I feel. But in case anyone wants to debate this, sorry, I'm not so interested in trying to figure this out. p.p.s I will write tomorrow about the trip to KK and meeting and listening to Acharn Sujin, or maybe later today. A couple of unexpected holidays as a result of the earthquake. #113970 From: "philip" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:48 am Subject: Re: Tsunami: Are you in Japan? Are you safe? philofillet Dear Rajesh I am living in Japan and appreciate your kind wish. The tsunami was so terrible. It is perhaps in bad taste to take Dhamma lessons out of such events, but we can reflect that our initial transgression of morality may not always bring bad results, but there is no hiding from the vipaka that will follow. Let's all stay on our toes and stay wisely in understanding of the present moment so that we do not continue to create a tidal wave of results of bad deeds. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Rajesh Patil wrote: > > Dear Brothers and Sisters of Japan, > > > > In afternoon, I saw the news of Tsunami in Japan. BBC channel showed > cars, ships and even buildings being swept away by a vast wall of > water after the 8.9-magnitude earthquake. > > > > We pray for your > safety. > > > with metta > Rajesh #113971 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Phil, Thank you very much for your long message and for your kind words. I have only a few comments. (1) About siila. [Phil]: Yes, I remember you said that we can imagine how the world would be if everyone simply kept the five precepts. Truly it would be a better place. But of course we all understand that that is just a beginning and in itself will not make any liberating impact on the defilements. But good to hold back their most devastating expressions, no matter what! [Han]: I agree with your above statement. I know that siila is not enough for making any liberating impact on the defilements. Siila can only abandon pariyu.t.thaana kilesa and not the anusaya kilesa. But please understand that what I have said at the meeting reflected my mental and physical strength and weaknesses. I have no expectations. I will do only what I can do, and I will leave the rest to my kamma. Thus, at the moment what I can do satisfactorily is the observance of siila. I will be happy with whatever little results it may bring. --------------- (2) About understanding. [Phil]: But I do feel these days more than in the past that if understanding of the present moment is developed, sila is sure to develop as well. I will still put a lot of emphasis on being a good person, that is my accumulated tendency and I am grateful for it, but I think there is more confidence now about understanding the present moment. [Han]: I agree that the understanding of the present moment, or living at the present, is absolutely necessary for the spiritual development. But it is difficult for me. For those, who can do that, I have only my admiration and respect. --------------- (3) About meditation. [Phil]: p.s one thing I still am not convinced about is dismissing meditation. [Han]: I am also very much *for* meditation. When I started my study and practice of Dhamma in 1996, I had meditated a lot. But now, with my physical limitations, I cannot meditate much "on cushion". So what I am doing now is reading Dhamma books, listening of Dhamma tapes, and contemplating on the Nine Attributes of the Buddha with the prayer beads. Other times, I do citta anupassanaa to the extent possible. --------------- Phil, I am very happy to have had the chance to see you. I do hope that we can see each other again in the near future. With metta and respect, Han p.s. I am also very glad to know that you arrived safely at Tokyo just before the Earthquake and Tsunami in Northern Japan. #113972 From: "philip" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics philofillet Hello Hann > Siila can only abandon pariyu.t.thaana kilesa and not the anusaya kilesa. Ph: Thank you for reminding me of this teaching. There are three levels, correct, of transgression, arising and latent. Is pariyu.t.thaana the transgression level or the arising level? I guess we would have to agree that sila can significanly weaken the power of the transgression level kilesa, but if the anusaya are still remaining, can we say that we permanently abandon or eradicate them? Well, we do whatever is necessary to prevent the transgression level kilesa from having free reign, that is for sure. May I ask a question, Han. I asked A. Sujin about it during the discussion but I can't remember the answer now. Are the anusayas only abandoned at enlightenment? I guess the sotapanna has abandoned killing completely, for example. Does the complete removal of the anusayas equal enlightenment? Han: But please understand that what I have said at the meeting reflected my mental and physical strength and weaknesses. I have no expectations. I will do only what I can do, and I will leave the rest to my kamma. Thus, at the moment what I can do satisfactorily is the observance of siila. I will be happy with whatever little results it may bring. Ph: I think it has already brought very good results. Your life story is a story of victory of sila over harmful habits. (In a way this must be said about anyone who benefits from the Buddha's teaching, if there has not been a reduction in truly harmful habits, perhaps there has been a failure to have understanding of the importance of conventional sila.) And of course that wouldn't have happened without panna helping as well. Metta, Phil #113973 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:52 am Subject: Correction Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Phil again, I had written: [Han]: I agree with your above statement. I know that siila is not enough for making any liberating impact on the defilements. Siila can only abandon pariyu.t.thaana kilesa and not the anusaya kilesa. Please correct it as follows: [Han]: I agree with your above statement. I know that siila is not enough for making any liberating impact on the defilements. Siila can only abandon vitakkama kilesa, and not pariyu.t.thaana kilesa and anusaya kilesa. I will respond to your last message shortly. metta and respect, Han #113974 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Phil (Sarah), [Phil]: Thank you for reminding me of this teaching. There are three levels, correct, of transgression, arising and latent. Is pariyu.t.thaana the transgression level or the arising level? I guess we would have to agree that sila can significanly weaken the power of the transgression level kilesa, but if the anusaya are still remaining, can we say that we permanently abandon or eradicate them? Well, we do whatever is necessary to prevent the transgression level kilesa from having free reign, that is for sure. [Han]: I just have corrected my mistake. Siila abandons vitakkama (transgression) kilesa, samaadhi abandons pariyu.t.thaana (arising) kilesa, and magga ~naa.na abandons anusaya (latent) kilesa. As long as there is anusaya kilesa we cannot prevent the arising of the other two kilesas. --------------- [Phil]: May I ask a question, Han. I asked A. Sujin about it during the discussion but I can't remember the answer now. Are the anusayas only abandoned at enlightenment? I guess the sotapanna has abandoned killing completely, for example. Does the complete removal of the anusayas equal enlightenment? [Han]: At the moment of arising of magga ~naa.na anusaya kilesas are abandoned according to the level of magga ~naa.na. Sotaapatti magga ~naa.na eradicates di.t.thaanusaya and vicikicchaanusaya. Anaagaami magga ~naa.na eradicates kaamaraagaanusaya and pa.tighaanusaya. Arahatta magga ~naa.na eradicates maanaanusaya, bhavaraagaanusaya, and avijjaanusaya. The complete removal of all anusayas equal enlightenment. Sotaapanna never breaks the five precepts, and thus abandons killing completely. Sarah will correct me if I am wrong. Metta, Han #113975 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:46 pm Subject: Blazing and Bright! bhikkhu5 Friends: Release of Mind by All Embracing Kindness! Thus have I heard the Blessed Buddha saying it: Whatever, Bhikkhus and Friends, there are here of worldly merit making, all these are not worth 1/16 of mental release by All-Embracing Kindness... The release of mind by all-embracing kindness radiates, emanates and shines, far surpassing it all! Like the light of the stars is not 1/16th of the moonlight, which radiates, beams and shines, surpassing all the stars, even & exactly so: Whatever there are of simple worldly and meritorious things, all these are not worth one 1/16th of the mental release reached by All-Embracing Kindness... The release of mind by all-embracing kindness radiates, beams, sparkles and shines, far surpassing it all... Just as in autumn, in the last month of the rainy season, on a clear and cloudless day the sun rises and dispels all the darkness bright and brilliant, even & quite exactly so: Whatever there are of worldly, meritorious, admirable, and attractive things, all these even summed up are not worth even one 1/16 of the release of mind by All-Embracing Kindness! The release of mind, which liberates the heart, by All-Embracing Kindness, radiates, dazzles and shines, far surpassing them all... Gotama Buddha gives the teaching on Infinite All-Embracing Kindness: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Metta.htm PS: Note his radiance! <....> All-Embracing, Universal and Infinite Kindness Dazzles and Shines! Source Text: The Itivuttaka 27: Thus was it said: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404214 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.1.024-027.irel.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #113976 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:14 am Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa jonoabb Hi Robert E (113625) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: The number of conventional objects is infinite, whereas the number of kinds of dhammas that can be object of insight is finite and is relatively small in number. > > I don't see exactly what the significance of that is. > =============== J: Well I do think it's significant that the kinds of dhammas that can be object of insight is finite and is relatively small in number. For example, the rupas that are experienced through the sense-doors in the course of ordinary daily life in the human plane are only 7 (visible object, etc), experienced by only 5 kinds of consciousness (seeing consciousness, etc). What we take for the 'world out there' is, in terms of direct experience, only those few kinds of rupas, which are themselves momentary in nature. If the number of dhammas was very large or, as in the case of concepts/conventional objects, infinite it could not safely be assumed that what is so in respect of the few that are directly experienced (i.e., that they are anicca, dukkha and anattaa) must also be so as regards the rest. > =============== One doesn't have to know every single object to gain insight, so the number of them is not of vital importance. In learning about concepts one can eventually see what they are and then it doesn't matter how many or varied of them happen to arise. > =============== J: That assumes there is something to be known about concepts ;-)) It also begs the question whether knowledge gained about concepts is of any value as far as the development of insight is concerned. Unless you are contemplating a class of insight that is insight into the "true nature of concepts" (but anything that has a 'true nature' is, by definition, included in the dhammas of which the Buddha spoke). > =============== > > I also don't subscribe to the notion that we are going to see "a finite number of dhammas" in some pure form where they are not associated with other factors, accumulations, various cetasikas, tendencies, situations, etc. So there are infinite combinations of kammas, cetasikas and accumulations that will arise with the various cittas and rupas and these are just as infinite in number as the various concepts. It is seeing the nature of them that is important, not having a clear ennumeration of the catalogue. > =============== J: Well, dhammas are always associated with other dhammas. But what makes a dhamma a dhamma is that each dhamma of its kind has a unique characteristic, discernable by panna, that distinguishes it from all other kinds of dhammas. And when a dhamma is the object of consciousness-with-panna, it is not intermingled with other dhammas. So in that sense I would say that dhammas can indeed be seen in their 'pure form'. > =============== > > J: I'm afraid I don't follow this. Sub-atomic particles can only be recognised and studied with the assistance of scientific instruments; otherwise there is only be a kind of 'thinking about' sub-atomic particles. > > Same with dhammas. They can only be recognized and seen directly with the microscope of the sotapanna. Pariyatti is likewise "studying about" is it not? The analogy is almost form-fitting. I'm not sure why you don't follow it. > =============== J: Yes, pariyatti is understanding *about* dhammas, but patipatti (awareness/insight) is understanding *of* dhammas by direct experience. If this were not possible for the worldling, the path could not be developed. > =============== > > J: In any event, this is not consistent with the way dhammas are described in such suttas as 'The All'. > > RE: We can adjust our seeing and look at our experience as namas and rupas, and eventually we can see that, rather than general objects that seem to last over time. It doesn't change the reality of visible object that we think it is more than that. It just adds concept to the perception. It makes sense to me. > =============== J: What you call 'looking at our experience as namas and rupas' is not the same thing as direct awareness of a presently arising dhamma as I understand that expression. It is imposing a view or idea of what namas and rupas are onto the present moment. As you say, it is just adding concept to perception. In essence it is just a kind of 'thinking about'. Jon #113977 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:25 am Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa jonoabb Hi Robert E (113625) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > I remember it clearly enough to say it was in that form. He said rather stridently, and gave a number of different examples one after the other, of the qualities that one could willfully put into the meditation if they wanted to develop this or that quality. > > It was almost as if he anticipated the later rise of Tony Robbins. > :-))) > =============== ;-)) See below > =============== > > J: To know more about the 'true nature of samsara' it's necessary to appreciate that the conventional world is not the world in the absolute sense. > > RE: And in order to see that we have to look at *this* world more closely and see what it really is, not dismiss it in favor of another world that we know through conceptual study. > =============== J: Once again, nobody is suggesting dismissing the conventional world. But the conventional world is not the field of knowledge/wisdom the development of which will lead to release from samsara. Dhammas do not become apparent by studying/focussing on conventional objects. > =============== > > J: The problem is not that actuality is conceptualised about (since the enlightened being does this also), but that neither the actuality or the conceptualising is seen for what it is. > > RE: Exactly. I'm not arguing against discernment and clarity, just about what is the field for such insight and understanding. Is it this world, or is the world of paramatha dhammas a totally separate reality? If so, it is a sort of Platonic view that separates experience into two planes that never intersect. > =============== J: You are saying that the field of understanding for the development of the path cannot be dhammas because that would mean 2 separate planes that never cross. I do not see it that way, since the conventional world is not a plane but is just the way that dhammas are conceived or thought about by citta which is itself one of the dhammas. > =============== > > J: What is the relationship between this 'correcting of perception' and panna? Which comes first, would you say? > > I wouldn't be able to give them an absolute causal order. I think that the practice of mindful discernment leads to development of vipassana and panna, and the unfolding of panna leads to greater clarity of mindfulness. A kusala cycle of mutual influence I think. > =============== J: We can certainly talk about a 'cycle of mutual influence' as regards *akusala* tendencies, especially before there was the hearing of the dhamma in this lifetime. It's the hearing of the teachings, and reflecting etc, that helps break that cycle from time to time. But I wouldn't say we can speak of a kusala cycle of mutual influence, in the sense that I take you to mean it here, at least not until insight has been developed to the higher levels. Jon PS Regarding > > It was almost as if he anticipated the later rise of Tony Robbins. > :-))) > =============== J: I had to Google that one. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Anthony "Tony" Robbins (born February 29, 1960) is an American self-help author and success coach. Robbins' books include "Unlimited Power: The New Science of Personal Achievement" and "Awaken The Giant Within". ... Career Robbins started his career promoting seminars for Jim Rohn. ... Later Robbins began teaching neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) which he had learned from NLP co-founder John Grinder. In 1983, Robbins learned how to firewalk from Tolly Burkan and he began to incorporate firewalking into his seminars and later began to develop and teach Neuro-Associative Conditioning (NAC). Robbins calls himself a peak performance coach rather than a motivational speaker because he believes that peak performance coaching is more effective than temporary motivation. ... Robbins also conducts seminars, including four-day events such as Unleash the Power Within (UPW), Mastery University, Date With Destiny, and Business Mastery. During the UPW seminar participants walk barefoot on hot coals at the end of the first evening session. The main point of the seminar is that achieving greatness requires the ability to unleash one's personal power and take action. Full entry at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Robbins Is it just me, or are there similarities with certain current-day interpretations of the teachings? Such as "Unleash the Power Within" (UPW). And this reference caught my eye: "In popular culture "In Men in Black (1997), an image of Robbins and a Robbins infomercial is seen in the background during a tour of the control room used to track aliens living on earth." Men in Black is a movie I've enjoyed watching (more than once). Obviously, this allusion was lost on me at the time. (May have to watch it again now ;-)). Messages 113948 - 113977 of 113986 * Hi, Lisa o Profile o Updates o Account Info o You are signed in as:nichiconn * Sign Out * Help Preview Mail w/ Toolbar * Yahoo! * Mail * My Yahoo! * News * Finance * Sports Yahoo! Groups Search Web Search Yahoo! 1. Drag the "Y!" and drop it onto the "Home" icon. 2. Select "Yes" from the pop up window. 3. Nothing, you're done. If this didn't work for you see detailed instructions Close this window AdChoices dhammastudygroup Dhamma Study Group (DSG) * Home * Messages * Members Only * Post * Files * Photos * Links * Groups Labs (Beta) ? Already a member? Sign in to Yahoo! Yahoo! Groups Tips Did you know... Message search is now enhanced, find messages faster. Take it for a spin. Best of Y! Groups Check them out and nominate your group. Click here for the latest updates on Groups Message search Messages Messages Help Message # Search: Advanced Messages 113978 - 114007 of 114022 Oldest | < Older | Newer > | Newest Messages: Show Message Summaries (Group by Topic) Sort by Date ^ #113978 From: "philofillet" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics philofillet Hi Sarah > S: So glad and relieved to see your message as it was a very long day for you yesterday and you must be exhausted. Lots of stories on my part, of course! Ph: The hardest part for me was when we were driving back to Bangkok and I really felt miserably ill and tired for a while compounded by dosa about giving my illness to you or Ivan (who started sneezing at one point) or others. It's hard to understand that worrying about giving your illness to someone is akusala, technically speaking, but it is. Perhaps there can be moments of kusala concern mixed in there. I got some sleepiness inducing drugs at Silom and more at the airport, and it was let's-get-stoned-nothing-about-cold-medicine-in-the -precepts time. And it was a pleasant trip home. A particularly nice moment when I was sitting at a Starbucks in the airport way down at the end of all the shops and the drugs started setting in and I read through SPD and really kind of had nice sleepy understanding of what was going on through the sense doors at the time. I do enjoy drugs. > Without your "poetic" way with words, I can't describe to others how truly wonderful it was to spend time together and have you with us in the discussions. I particularly appreciated your lively, enthusiastic approach to the Dhamma and great questions/points raised with K.Sujin which we all benefited so much from. I also appreciated your kind, considerate manners and care of everyone. Thank you so much for joining us and hope the cold is not too bad! Ph: Yes, I sense I did quite well. Of course lobha and mana wanted to overcome past bad behaviour on the list and be liked by the-friends-I-formerly-called-"Sujinists" and Project Success Confirmed I think. You probably didn't realize I was trying to be likable, did you? But of course we all are a lot of the time, except for some of us who seem to be relatively free from worrying about that and who are happy to GRAB THE SINGLE ROOM! (Inside joke.) Perhaps they are the most honest ones and give rise to less accumulation of lobha and mana by virtue of not always feeling obliged to be sweeties...perhaps, perhaps not, who knows, just another story. > Here are a few (rough!) quotes from the discussions I jotted down from the first lunch-time: Thank you for the quotes. I think I will just write down some points that have stayed with me from the discussions. New post. Metta, Phil #113979 From: "philip" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:32 am Subject: Some discussion points (unaccompanied by A.Sujin) philofillet Hi all I would just like to scan back through my 4 days of discussing Dhamma during my trip to Thailand and see which points stuck. It was my first time discussing Dhamma "live" for a few years, and my first ever time to discuss Dhamma with an Ajahn/respected teacher so it was certainly interesting. Maybe in a first post I'll think about things from outside the more formal discussions with A.Sujin. 1)Monday morning, Peninsula hotel with Han, Sarah and Jon -I think this has already been covered in other posts. 2) Monday afternoon, Au Bon Pain bakery with Sukin, Robert K, Azita, Maeve, Ann, Bette and Ivan. Very worldly, this discussion, lots about movies and finances and talk about other people and their wrong views, more like a relaxed chat which was probably best for me since I was coming in from the Cold, so to speak. The most relevant point for me was when I told them that I was facing a temptation to go to prostitutes in Bangkok (because of my very unique marriage, I have been celibate for a few years now and I had money and free evenings.) Robert K asked directly "do you want to go?" and that was the key question that stuck with me, as I'll explain later. He also said that it wasn't covered by the precepts, and that stuck with me too. There was some discussion about pseudo jhanna attainments and I told about my WOW experience. Please let me put it down on paper that I did *not* say that I had an orgasm while trying to seek jhanas. WOW, another powerful aftershock just now, the strongest jolt since yesterday. Pretty powerful rupas. Can rupas be powerful? If anyone wants to pick up that point, please do. 3)Monday afternoon, before and after the Au Bon Pain chat, with Sukin, first in a taxi, and then at a department store food mall. First of all, as much as I liked everyone I met, I have to say a special thanks to Sukin. He was so kind about seeing me around on this first day and generally just a wonderful, wonderful guy. In the taxi he started in quite suddenly with an assessment of my tendency to try hard to be a person who does not do akusala, etc. And the same theme continued at the food mall. I told him about my acquired sensitivity to observing whenever I made women uncomfortable by glancing at them and he told me that was just a story, who knows if the woman who adjusted her blouse after I glanced at her cleavage had been made uncomfortable or not. I think he said a lot in a "just nama and rupa" vein and I said Ken H can tell me that a thousand times and it won't mean anything to me, and I guess I was implying the same about what he was saying. I was listening, aware that I wasn't feel any aversion about having my Dhamma principles dismissed so readily, and we walked around a bit more and he headed home and I was left alone with my demons who were demanding a fun night in Bangkok. Musical Break http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9mwELXPGbA 4) Alone with Phil and his demons, hotel, late afternoon. This was very interesting. I had a coffee and looked through the copy of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas that Sukin had been kind enough to get for me (I wonder what happened to the copy I recived about 5 years ago?) and I came across a passage that I will always treasure: "In reality everybody has visitors at each moment one sees, hears, smells, tastes or experiences tangible object. Usually when such visitors come, citta rooted in attachment arises and enjoys what appears through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue or the body sense. THere are different kinds of visitors. Nobody would like a wicked person as a visirot, but a dear relative or friend is most welcome. In reality the different objects that appear through the senses are only ruupas. Ruupa does not know anything and therefore it cannot have any evil intention towards anybdoy. When would a visitor be an enemy and when a dear relative or friend? Actually, when an object appears and one enjoys it and clings to it, there is an enemy, because enjoyment with clining is akusala dhamma. Akusala dhamma is not a friend to anybody. Whereas kusala dhammais like a close relative who si ready to help one, eager to give assistance at all times. Therefore, we should know the difference between the characteristics of kusala citta and of akusala citta." As I read and reflected on this passage along with Rob K's question above ("Do you want to go?") along with his pointing out that having sex with prostitutes was not covered by the precepts and I found it really easy to find the answer both to whether I wanted to go or not, and whether I would. 5) With Sarah as we drove back to Bangkok a few days later. We mostly talked about various people and stories, so it wasn't so much Dhaamma (I now feel Dhamma discussion should be about dhammas as much as possible to truly be Dhamma discussion) but one interesting point I'd like to not. I told her about my feeling that I had kind of gone beyond needing to do metta meditation, and it was enough to understand that people were having common hardships in samsara for me to be able to have metta, and she said that there can just be friendliness and ***appreciation of the characteristics of friendliness*** without having to create stories about people in samasara etc. Understanding the characteristics of dhammas is what it all comes down to, really, so was interested in that. (I didn't say it then, but at breakfast the day before that we can sense when there is not much capacity available to deal with harsh vipaka, and that at such times a strategic approach to supporting friendly feelings is perfectly good and adviseable, in my opinion.) I'll leave it there and in the next post summarize some things I learned from A. Sujin and of course that will be the real meat and potatoes of what I want to write about my trip to Bangkok. Metta, Phil #113980 From: "philip" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:34 am Subject: Re: Some discussion points (unaccompanied by A.Sujin) philofillet Hi again I knew this would happen. > 2) Monday afternoon, Au Bon Pain bakery with Sukin, Robert K, Azita, Maeve, Ann, Bette and Ivan. Sorry Elle, and sorry Ann for putting you there when you weren't. P #113981 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:54 am Subject: Re: Questions on Samatha. epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > > Hi Robert E and Ken O, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Ken O, and Ken H. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------- > > > >> KO: then why do people travel all the way to foundation to listen to dhamma, > > > >>isn't that intentional also. Why do we read books and go email to discuss > > > >>dhamma, aren't these actions are intentional behaviour. > > > > > > > >If one said these are all accumulated behaviour, why cant their formal meditaion > > > > > > > >are also their accumulated behaviour. > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > >KH: If I don't skip ahead to something easier this reply will never get posted. > > > > > > >:-) > > > > > > KO: You cannot give a good reply and I am confident of it. > > > > I want to underline this moment here in your conversation, and agree with you that Ken H. has simply skipped out on the question you raised. I'd like to urge Ken H. to answer this question, rather than complaining that it would take too long to answer! That is not an excuse worthy of your usual forthright manner, Ken H. > -------------- > > KH: I think the problem was that Ken O, in all his years at DSG, had apparently not listened to a single thing. > > The one thing, above all else, that DSG people have been trying to impress upon us is that there is *only the present moment*. There are only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. I agree that it is very sad that not all dsg members have the same faith and confidence in your purity that I do. I am sure you go to Dhamma meetings and such with no intention at all. ;-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #113982 From: "philip" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:18 am Subject: Re: Questions on Samatha. philofillet Hi Rob E and Ken H and all > > KH: I think the problem was that Ken O, in all his years at DSG, had apparently not listened to a single thing. > > > > The one thing, above all else, that DSG people have been trying to impress upon us is that there is *only the present moment*. There are only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. > > I agree that it is very sad that not all dsg members have the same faith and confidence in your purity that I do. I am sure you go to Dhamma meetings and such with no intention at all. ;-) Ph: How's it going guys? I just want to test my ability to understand Ken H now that I am seeing things a bit differently, Sukin suggested that I might. Let's see... Well, I don't know the full context, but I certainly have come to understand that saying "there are only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas" is not radical, anyone who knows about Dhamma could and would say that. So where does it fail to stick? I guess it is that there is intention in everything we do, and going to Dhamma discussions as I did was laden with as much desire for results, desire for happiness, as there is when I sit to meditate. Less wrong view about seeking to control dhammas?...ummm....maybe. I can see how meditators who are strongly fixed on one method could start getting too hungry for results, and joining Dhamma discussion on a habitual basis (unlike for me, for whom it was a rare treat) would probably be less likely to seek to speed understanding through it. I think I've been put off a bit by reading people at Dhamma wheel who suggest that it is just the meditation retreats that represent bhavana, obviously that is wrong view, but it does seem some people separate the time they are meditating from the time they are just going through daily life, that's got to lead to unwholesome expectations about the meditation, I think. If the meditation fits naturally into one's householder lifestyle and if one understands that dhammas are no more controllable in meditation than in daily life, fine. Or if one becomes a monk in a way that is in line with one's accumulated tendencies. "Only namas and rupas" is no longer a problem for me. But conventional behaviour is created by the operation of namas and (on?) rupas in predictable or probable ways, so conventional behaviour is important too, and the Buddha understood that. I'm going to be retreating from active participation again once I've summarized what I learned from my trip, because I can tell my understanding will have to develop in a subtle area that is not quite Ken H but not as far from him as I thought, and that subtle understanding is best fostered by listening and reflecting without too much immediate testing of the ideas, I think. The understanding needs quiet times to incubate or something like that... Metta, Phil #113983 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:35 am Subject: Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Sarah, Jon, Phil, Sukin, Nina and others, 9. Meaning of nama in different contexts. Only in D.O. is it referring to just 3 khandhas, not vinnana. In other contexts, nama refers to 4 mental khandhas. --------------- Han: Definition of "naama". As noted by Sarah above, normally "naama" includes all four mental khandhas (vedanaakkhandha, sa~n~nakkhandha, sa"nkhaarakkhandha, vi~n~naanakkhandha). But in D.O. "vi~n~naa.na" is considered as a separate factor, and "naama" means 35 cetasikas which associate with 32 lokiya vipaaka cittas. 35 cetasikas are 13 a~n~nasamaana cetasikas plus 22 sobha.na cetasikas (excluding 3 virati cetasikas). Vedanaa, sa~n~naa, and cetanaa are included in 13 a~n~nasamaana cetasikas, and thus, these 35 cetasikas represent 3 naamakkhandhas (vedanaakkhandha, sa~n~nakkhandha, sa"nkhaarakkhandha). Why this is so in D.O.? On page 296 of the CMA, Step (2): Dependent on kammic formations arises consciousness: That is, the kammic formations (the 29 wholesome and unwholesome volitions) condition the arising of the 32 kinds of resultant consciousness. At the moment of conception one especially potent kammic formation accumulated in the mental continuum of the deceased being generates one of the 19 types of rebirth consciousness in the realm appropriate for that kamma to mature. Thereafter, during the course of existence, other accumulated kammas generate other resultant types of consciousness according to circumstances. Step (3): Dependent on consciousness arises mind-and-matter: Whereas in step (2) vi~n~naa.na refers exclusively to resultant consciousness, here it signifies both resultant consciousness and kammic consciousness of previous lives. The term "mind" (naama) denotes the cetasikas associated with resultant consciousness, the term "matter" (ruupa) denotes material phenomena produced by kamma. --------------- Han: We now see the two different roles played by vi~n~naa.na in step (2) and step (3). In step (2) vi~n~naa.na is a paccayuppanna or a conditioned dhamma with the emphasis on pa.tisandhi citta, the very beginning of the present life in Dependent Origination. Whereas in step (3), vi~n~naa.na is a paccaya or a conditioning dhamma, and as Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi put it, signifies both resultant consciousness and kammic consciousness of previous lives. For these reasons, vi~n~naa.na is considered as a separate factor in the D.O. --------------- Kind regards, Han #113984 From: Rajesh Patil Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tsunami: Are you in Japan? Are you safe? rajpat_00 Hello Phil! I am glad to hear that you are safe. May all affected by tsunami get strength and courage to come out of suffering. with metta Rajesh Make India Buddhist --- On Sat, 12/3/11, philip wrote: From: philip >I am living in Japan and appreciate your kind wish. The tsunami was so terrible. It is perhaps in bad taste to take Dhamma lessons out of such events, but we can reflect that our initial transgression of morality may not always bring bad results, but there is no hiding from the vipaka that will follow. Let's all stay on our toes and stay wisely in understanding of the present moment so that we do not continue to create a tidal wave of results of bad deeds. <...> #113985 From: "philip" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:18 pm Subject: Re: Questions on Samatha. philofillet Hi again guys > Ph: How's it going guys? I just want to test my ability to understand Ken H now that I am seeing things a bit differently, Sukin suggested that I might. > > Let's see... Ph: Please disregard the previous long speculation on whatever it was I was writing about, I really didn't want to get into that, consider me to have stepped gingerly back out of the thread. I want to stick to studying dhammas in theory and gradually develop understanding of them, so speculating about whatever conventional behaviour it was I was proliferating on in that last post has nothing to do with that I feel now. Strip it down to the dhammas, Phil, don't lose the boon you received in Thailand! Metta, Phil #113986 From: "philip" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:27 pm Subject: Discussion points to follow philofillet Hi all Following my rather long and gossipy descriptive post earlier, I wanted to just jot down a few things I remmember hearing from A.Sujin during the talks but now when I tried I found it too difficult to recall them, probably still tired from the trip back and the intense events here over the last two days. So I will try to jot some down in a notebook gradually over the next few days and come back later with more details if I come to recall them, I think I will... Metta, Phil #113987 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. ashkenn2k Dear Ken H As a dhamma friend and for the sake of dhamma, why your view is wrong. Expositor, pg 493, 494 <> The Debates Commentary pg 41, 42 <> IMHO - the teaching of highest characteristics which is about nama and rupa is not about nama and rupa vs concept. As describe on the above, they work hand in hand and not one is better than the other. Learning nama and rupa is about understanding anatta, and not again on the view it is about nama and rupa vs concept. Dhamma is not just about paramatha dhamma and the texts has always explain paramatha dhamma are just acutality dhammas. Hmm maybe I will start to write a few emails about concepts vs reality, not about paramatha dhamma, it is about why development cannot go without concept. Ken O #113988 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:04 pm Subject: Problems again szmicio Hi all, I am trying to get back to Dhamma. It's hard to me to start read. Recently I had this 'falling in love' issues. I cant get over that. This can pain a lot. How to deal with painful mental feeling? I am getting back to Dhamma only when I feel bad, I dint do so when I feel well. Best wishes Lukas #113989 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Problems again upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - All but saints, arahants actually, suffer. But as for "getting back to Dhamma," the world provides us with Dhamma, so long as we observe introspectively and externally with mindfulness and recollection of the tilakkhana and of the importance of relinquishment. Practice can be at all times. Even when we notice our being consumed with emotion, that noticing is Dhamma practice, especially if we note the accompanying wrong view that nourishes this. With metta, Howard Always Watchful "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." — _SN 45.8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) #113990 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:17 pm Subject: Anatta, no contro vs meditation . Why is there a problem? truth_aerator Hello all, I agree that there is no freedom of will, and everything is anatta. I also agree that one can't force any results whether on meditation cushion or in daily life. But does this mean that conventional actions do not occur? Even though the mind is fully conditioned, it still thinks. The body still does its things even though it has no control, and no self. Why can't meditation be one of those events that happen on the way to Nibbana? Why can't there be training of the mind, even if it is all not-self? Lets take these examples: A person wants to become big and strong. He goes to the gym, workouts out, eats right, etc and etc. After sometime, when all conditions have been met, the person is big and strong. Or a person is beaten up by thugs. He trains in martial arts and becomes very skillful in beating people up. He goes and beats up his assailants... If there was no training, there would be no improvement. Of course every desire, action, condition, has "occurred". There is no freedom of will or deliberate choice done by "Atta" (there isn't any atta). There were probably lots of subconscious forces acting on that person to do what s/he did. No freedom of will, but everything has occurred, and if training wasn't there, there would not be any result. Does this mean that training is not necessary? Does this mean that training cannot occur? Can a person without any training or conditioning become much better? No. Same with Buddhist path. It is anatta and beyond control. But it does occur, and things described in the suttas (sitting cross legged, developing concentration, etc etc) do occur. With metta, Alex #113991 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:48 pm Subject: Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Sarah, Jon, Phil, Sukin, Nina and others, 11. Death and chanting, sila again at such times. --------------- Han: We talked about dhamma chanting and reminding the dying man of his past kusala activities so that he may have a better aasanna kamma (death proximate kamma), and a fortunate rebirth. It is largely practiced in Burma. But one cannot be sure. In mara.naasanna viithi, the last mental process of a dying man, in accordance with the kamma that is going to produce next rebirth, an akusala or kusala citta normally functions 5 times as mara.naasanna javanas. This viithi is very rapid and it is beyond control of anybody. So all the chanting and reminding may not produce the desired results. Besides, when a person is in great pain before dying (like the sort of pain that I had when I recovered from anesthesia after gall bladder surgery) one may not be able to think anything else besides the intense pain. So, a more reliable (hopefully!) approach is to develop a good aacinna kamma (habitual kamma) while a person has the opportunity to do so, that is, while he is still healthy, and not at the last moment of death. And for me, I consider that the observance of siila is the most important activity to develop a good habitual kamma. The accesstoinsight web-site has posted two suttas which show siila as the foundation upon which the entire path is built. AN 11.1 Kimattha Sutta: What is the Purpose? translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.001.than.html AN 11.2 Cetana Sutta: An Act of Will translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.002.than.html Here, I take into consideration the remarks made by Nina that siila has many levels, many aspects, and there is also higher siila, adhi-siila. So, in the above two suttas only adhi-siila may be qualified as the foundation upon which the entire path is built. Nevertheless, I will stick to the observance of siila, although my siila may be far away from adhi-siila. Furthermore, in Vism I, 23. among the benefits of Virtue, I have noted the following. Thus, I will stick to my observance of siila, although it may not be an adhi-siila. ==================== 12. Han & Phil's 'conspiracy' that paramatthas only are OK for people like Jon who are 'on track' or for Sarah who is 'present'!!! Ha, ha.....:-)) --------------- Han: it was not a conspiracy among I and Phil. We sincerely believe that Jon and Sarah are much more advanced. And we are fortunate to have such friends or "partners in dhamma". Jon and Sarah, I once again thank you very much for the delicious breakfast that you had offered to me. This is THE END of my elaboration on the points noted down by Sarah. For easy reference to the messages on this topic I list below the messages so that you can just click on them and read them. Sarah's original message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113893 Han's messages: (1) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113904 (2) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113913 (3) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113923 (4) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113936 (5) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113953 (6) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113971 (7) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113973 (8) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113974 (9) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113983 Nina's message: (1) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113945 Phil's messages: (1) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113952 (2) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113969 (3) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113972 Sarah's message: (1) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/113956 Kind regards, Han #113992 From: "colette" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:26 pm Subject: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) ksheri3 Hi Nina, You just proved my point, THANK YOU. > But when we read the suttas about seeing > and hearing, normal seeing and hearing is meant. colette: YOU HAVE MADE A DECISION WHICH RESTRAINS, WHICH CREATES BOUNDERIES, as to what the QUALIFICATIONS ARE TO APPLY TO THE ACTUALITY OF THE MIND-ONLY SCHOOL'S DEFINITION OF DHARMA. Are you suggesting that the Buddha was totally aware of the advancements that would occur in SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY but remained silent because he was hording the TRUTH? This is NOT RIGHT ACTION and so you are imposing upon the Buddha THROUGH YOUR INTERPRETATION AND YOU ARE PUTTING LIMITS ON THE SUTTAS THEMSELVES, IN THEIR APPLICABILITY TO STAY RELEVENT AND TRUE. When the Buddha EXISTED, what was "NORMAL" then is not WHAT IS "NORMAL" TODAY. A pleasure doing business with you. Come back and purchase some more (see FOGHAT: "LIVE NOW, PAY LATER") toodles, colette #113993 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions on Samatha. kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ---- <. . .> > > KH: Where in the texts does it say that the Buddha did not teach anatta? > KO: anatta can be learn from concepts as well, where in the text say that anatta cannot be learn from concepts. I could also give quotes in the suttas where anatta is learn from concepts. ---- HK: Anatta means there are no concepts, only dhammas. ------------ <. . .> >> KH: Where in the texts does it say that body parts (atta) and decaying corpses (also atta) really exist? > > KO: So you are saying these are written wrongly in the text is written wrongly, including recollection of Buddha. ------------ KH: No, I am saying the texts are about paramattha dhammas, not concepts. ----------------- <. . .> KO: whats wrong with concept, do you mean those ancients used concepts to learn Buddhism are all wrong? You should read the text where many of the practitioners of body parts or foul from there to vipassana to enlightement. You should read more and stop having your own thinking of anatta which is not in accordance with Buddha's teaching. Your obsession with what actually exists and only this can be used for development is not correct, not accordance to the Buddha teachings. I can also quote the text why I say your such view is not correct, and why concepts and paramattha dhammas are all can be used for development. -------------------- KH: The Buddha said he was able to use conventional language without "getting caught up in it". That means we have to *hear* his conventional language without getting caught up in it. If we are really careful we too can use conventional language when discussing Dhamma. But whatever the language, all true Dhamma discussion is about paramatha dhammas, not concepts. Ken H #113994 From: "philip" Date: Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:56 am Subject: Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics philofillet Hi Han >> Han: We talked about dhamma chanting and reminding the dying man of his past kusala activities so that he may have a better aasanna kamma (death proximate kamma), and a fortunate rebirth. It is largely practiced in Burma. But one cannot be sure. In mara.naasanna viithi, the last mental process of a dying man, in accordance with the kamma that is going to produce next rebirth, an akusala or kusala citta normally functions 5 times as mara.naasanna javanas. This viithi is very rapid and it is beyond control of anybody. So all the chanting and reminding may not produce the desired results. Besides, when a person is in great pain before dying (like the sort of pain that I had when I recovered from anesthesia after gall bladder surgery) one may not be able to think anything else besides the intense pain. Ph: Sarah brought this topic up with A. Sujin. Of course she said that just words without understanding are of no value. I said that I used to like to try to recite the mangala sutta or listen to the Dhammapada in Pali, and she asked me to recite something from memory. Nothing came up except part of the first line of Mangala sutta. But the interesting thing is that later that night when I couldn't sleep I put on my i-pod and listened to the Mangala sutta for the first time in awhile, and realized how deeply the ideals in the first few verses had permeated my life in several ways. For example, as you know, I decided to write to my father about DHamma this year, and I feel that was the result of the verse that is something like "madapituuppathana" (care for your parents) which really sunk in from repeating it so often two years ago. I think I will go back to reciting the mangala sutta as support for wholesome action in life. >> So, a more reliable (hopefully!) approach is to develop a good aacinna kamma (habitual kamma) while a person has the opportunity to do so, that is, while he > is still healthy, and not at the last moment of death. And for me, Ph: Yes, this seems wisest. But if there were conditions for reciting of a beloved sutta at my deathbed I would welcome it, it could only help even if not in the dramatic way of influencing directly the rebirth citta! I>>> 12. Han & Phil's 'conspiracy' that paramatthas only are OK for people like Jon who are 'on track' or for Sarah who is 'present'!!! Ha, ha.....:-)) Ph: I am not so sure about this now, feel more confident that we can all study the characteristics of dhammas, thanks especially to the teaching of nimitta, there can be many dhammas forming the nimitta that is the characteristic we study, more understandable. But I still don't see why we couldn't do so in meditation as well as in daily life, unless our meditation was driven by some crazy hunger for insight or something like that, or locked into a very wrong method. But I am not such a serious meditator, so I will leave it to others to defend the practice of meditation. Anyways, thanks for all your comments on our meeting, Han, and for the clarification yesterday about the different levels of anusaya and their eradication. Metta, Phil #113995 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics jonoabb Hi Phil J: Thanks for taking the trouble to post this report so soon after your return home. It was great meeting you after all these years, and a pleasure to have you along on the trip to KK. I admired the way you were quite at ease in the discussion, and didn't mind in the slightest being put on the spot! And of course, you had no problem with the cultural side of things either. I'm glad you found the discussions useful, and I suspect you've heard much that will be worth reflecting upon for the next while. I'm sure others will find the recording useful when it goes up on the website. Looking forward to further discussions on the list (and in person again, perhaps). Jon #113996 From: "philip" Date: Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics philofillet Hi Jon and all I'm going slightly mad because Naomi is insisting we stay in the house today (her NGO sources have her believing the nuclear meltdown is already affecting Tokyo) so thanks for giving me a nice post. > J: Thanks for taking the trouble to post this report so soon after your return home. > > It was great meeting you after all these years, and a pleasure to have you along on the trip to KK. I admired the way you were quite at ease in the discussion, and didn't mind in the slightest being put on the spot! And of course, you had no problem with the cultural side of things either. > > I'm glad you found the discussions useful, and I suspect you've heard much that will be worth reflecting upon for the next while. I'm sure others will find the recording useful when it goes up on the website. Ph: Yes, I was happy that I didn't get irritated about being put on the spot, I guess I knew it would be coming, and I'm rarely as irritable in person as I get online, nature of the internet monster. More importantly, I knew I was in the company of people who all care deeply about DHamma and it was a wholesome team project to foster understanding and I knew my contrary views would be helpful in that. Also, A.S has a very good way of speaking, her tone of voice. I do believe that physical intimation in speech is very important when communicating Dhamma. For example, we might meet people who are very happy about being Buddhists and speak with a very gentle tone that somehow doesn't feel sincere because it's not the intimation of kusala cittas, I think we've all had that experience. But with A.S, there is a lot of kusala behind her speaking so I never felt irritated even when she laughed at my story about the woman adjusting her blouse, or the hell realms. I've been listening to some KK talks from 2007, when Lodewijk asked some very good questions about impersonality and the person's funeral, and about just what is sati. I think she explains really well, but I may have just drunk the kool-aid, who can tell, I may be ranting against her again, no way to know with me! > Jon: Looking forward to further discussions on the list (and in person again, perhaps). Ph: Well, we'll see about that. I may turn up with lobster claws growing out of my head, and 12 feet tall. The radiation is creeping under the door even as I type... Metta, Phil #113997 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Phil, > > [Han]: So, a more reliable (hopefully!) approach is to develop a good aacinna kamma (habitual kamma) while a person has the opportunity to do so, that is, while he is still healthy, and not at the last moment of death. > [Phil]: Yes, this seems wisest. But if there were conditions for reciting of a beloved sutta at my deathbed I would welcome it, it could only help even if not in the dramatic way of influencing directly the rebirth citta! ----------- [Han]: Please do not misunderstand me. I am all for chanting Dhamma verses to the dying man. I have even selected two tapes for my family to play for me at my deathbed. One is on the Eleven Parittas. The other one is on Dhammapada verses 153 and 154. 153. Anekajaati sa.msaara.m sandhaavissa.m anibbisa.m, Gahakaaraka.m gavesanto dukkhaa jaati punappuna.m. 154. Gahakaaraka di.t.thosi Puna geha.m na kaahasi; Sabbaa te phaasukaa bhaggaa Gahakuu.ta.m visa"nkhata.m; Visa"nkhaaragata.m citta.m Ta.nhaana.m khayamajjhagaa. Glossary: anekajaati + sa.msaara.m = innumerable births + in samsara sandhaavissa.m + anibbisa.m = wandering + cannot find gahakaaraka.m + gavesanto = house-builder + looking for dukkhaa + jaati + punappuna.m = dukkha + born + again and again gahakaaraka + di.t.thosi = house-builder + seen puna + geha.m + na + kaahasi = again + house + not + build sabbaa + phaasukaa + bhaggaa = all + rafters + broken gahakuu.ta.m + visa"nkhata.m = roof-top (ridge-pole) + destroyed visa"nkhaara + gata.m citta.m = having destroyed + mind has reached ta.nhaana.m khayamajjhagaa = end of craving. English translation: Verse 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha! Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained. (translated by Daw Mya Tin) ---------- Han: In the tape, the above two verses are followed by Pa.ticcasamuppaada and Pa.t.thaana in Pali verses and Burmese translations. We have special respect to "Anekajaati sa.msaara.m" because these verses are recited by five monks when we bought a new Buddha statue from the market before we put the statue on our house shrine. The five monks represent the five yogis paying respect to the Buddha at the Deer Park in Isipatana. The five monks pay homage to the Buddha statue that we have bought and recite those verses. This is to make the statue to become like the real Buddha for us to worship. But I had written, "So all the chanting and reminding may not produce the desired results" in my last post, not because I do not appreciate the value of Dhamma chanting, but because I am not sure of my mental state at the dying moments. At the dying moments my mental faculty may become very weak so that I may not hear, or I may not comprehend even if I do hear, the Dhamma verses that are chanted for me. That was the only reason. Otherwise, I am all for the Dhamma chanting for the dying man. -------------------- Kind regards, Han #113998 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:13 am Subject: Re: Questions on Samatha. kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ------ <. . .> > KO Hmm maybe I will start to write a few emails about concepts vs reality, not about paramatha dhamma, it is about why development cannot go without concept. ------ KH: Maybe you should. But then again, maybe you shouldn't. It seems to me you have invented an original theory and become a little bit obsessed with it. Maybe you should drop it, go back to the beginning and start your Dhamma study again. If I have understood her correctly, that is something A Sujin says we should all do, all the time. Ken H #113999 From: "azita" Date: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics gazita2002 hallo Phil, glad to hear you are OK, at least at the moment. I thought about you when I heard news of the Japan disaster. LOL about the 12 ft high creature with lobster claws. but the reality now is the only thing that is real. Jst these 6 doorways and nothing else. All arising and falling away so quickly. Nice to have met you in person, Phil. patience, courage and good cheer, azita