#114200 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:33 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 6. hantun1 Dear Sarah (Nina), > > [Han]: "So too the clansman who feels revulsion (dispassion) for the occurrence of aggregates, undertakes to develop the four paths in his own continuity which is like the man's application of poison to the tree on all four sides." > [Sarah]: This is like the point Howard has made in my discussion with Herman - if one doesn't see and understand the poison through a comprehension and dispassion towards the khandhas arising and falling away now, enlightenment will never occur. [Han]: Here, the poisons are compared to magga ~naa.nas. When magga ~naa.na arises, [a comprehension and dispassion towards the khandhas arising and falling away now] is *already* accomplished. If that is not yet accomplished the magga ~naa.nas will not arise. =============== > > [Han]: Here, the word "nullifies" is translated from "pahaatabba.m". Pahaatabba.m is a term which can be vikkhambhana-pahaana or samuccheda pahaana. So, I think the abandoning of all that can be abandoned by a given mundane or supramundane knowledge, is included in the word "nullifies". > [Sarah]: I would have thought that in the context of the quotes regarding the development of the path, that the mundane knowledge would refer to insight, vipassana, but I may have missed something. [Han]: Yes, vipassanaa ~naa.na also is applicable. In that case, we can say that [Pahaatabba.m is a term which can be tada"nga-pahaana, or vikkhambhana-pahaana, or samuccheda pahaana. So, I think the abandoning of all that can be abandoned by a given mundane or supramundane knowledge, is included in the word "nullifies".] Respectfully, Han #114201 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta, no contro vs meditation . Why is there a problem? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Tue, 22/3/11, truth_aerator wrote: >And I wonder about the nature of "understanding". Is understanding limited to having a lot of theoretic knowledge, and being able to answer 100s of very obscure questions of Abhidhamma and so on? ... S: Ken H already gave good answers. There's never been any suggestion by me (or anyone else I know) who has even hinted at what you suggest above:-) Metta Sarah ===== #114202 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- On Tue, 22/3/11, Robert E wrote: >I've always had the feeling that Buddha was very good at taking common meanings of the day and converting them into new understandings. For instance, his use of the term Brahmin, as I recall, starts pointing towards those who are following the Noble 8f path, rather than traditional Hinduism. ... S: Yes, a good example. ... .I've thought that the kind of analysis that those such as Patanjali did in the yoga sutras, including the Ashtanga, or eight-fold path of yoga, was a template for the Budda's Noble 8f Path, which he also expanded upon to create his 8 fold path. ... S: Another excellent example. He took the same terminology, turned it on its head, so to speak, so that what was taught used the same terms but with a completely new meaning. ... >I think it's pretty smart to take a familiar template and expand upon it to create a new level of meaning, and before you know it, some of the meanings are completely different, while some of them, such as jhana/samadhi, are still useful in a new context. ... S: yes, as usual, you've summarised my meaning very clearly. Add any more examples that you come across anytime. Metta Sarah ======== #114203 From: "philip" Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: notes from KK philofillet Hi Sarah (and Ken H) Thanks for this and your other post re the bad rupas. I think for now I'd like to just ask questions and listen and reflect, take a break from positing(?) and defending my own theories/opinions for awhile, though I of course have them, and expressed them to Ken H this morning. There are things A.Sujin said in Thailand and says in recorded talks I listen to that I still disagree with somewhat but somehow attachment to those opinions has loosened, perhaps a day will come when I try sincerely to get what I perceive as contradictions ironed out, but not now... BTW, thanks for the really excellent and helpful answer to my questions about accumulating cittas. Occasionally I will ask a question like that, but will try not to overdo it. Thanks also Ken for your response. Metta, Phil > > >Ph: I don't agree with this yet, but I guess yes for sure at the very least indirectly about realities. > .... > S: I think that you agree that only realities actually exist and that the Buddha taught about the Truth? > .... #114204 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta, no contro vs meditation . Why is there a problem? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/24/2011 6:01:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, -------- <. . .> KH: and so an entirely new world is created and destroyed every moment. > H: Okay. I agree with that, viewing, in fact, there to no remaining at all - but just leave it that I agree with that. --------- KH: OK, although I think there was some hesitation there. :-) --------------- > H: Whatever "is" right now never was before and never will be again. --------------- KH: Yes. -------------------- > H: Change is relentless. -------------------- KH: Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. If the universe is entirely new, where is the relentless change? -------------------------------------------------- At every instant, "whatever is" differs entirely from what was before, and what was before is entirely gone and no longer existent. And being entirely new is radical change. The radical nature of change doesn't make it unreal. But there IS a paradoxical element to it: Impermanence, whether viewed as instantaneous and continual (my perspective) or as discrete (your perspective), is what I mean by "change," and it is a fundamental aspect of conditioned reality, even though at any time, there is no instant but that instant! The facts of reality are deep, subtle, and not understandable (except superficially) by reason alone, but require supermundane wisdom. -------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- <. . .> > H: Now, here again you are saying "only the present moment." You have not yet explained the "depth in that. -------------------------- I am saying, if our understanding of it is superficial then it won't have much impact on our lives. The impact increases with understanding. -------------------------------------------------- I agree that our understanding that "what was" is entirely gone, entirely non-existent, and that there is nothing at all except for what presently is, is rarely understood except superficially, and, OTOH, a deep and direct insight into this would have a shattering impact. ------------------------------------------------- At the point where our understanding is complete (pativedha) the impact will be so great as to turn consciousness away from the world, towards nibbana. ------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure that such deep knowing of "nowness" would sufficient, though I think it would have a major impact. From my Dhamma readings, the grasping of the tilakkhana and/or of paticcasamupada is needed. ------------------------------------------------ Ken H =================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114205 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding & Amount of theory in pages nilovg Dear Alex, I appreciate your well thought-out post and your confidence in the Visuddhimagga and Patisambhidamagga. I will add something here and there. Op 23-mrt-2011, om 17:00 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > I am all for learning. If one trusts Classical Mahavihara > Theravada, then the best book is probably the Visuddhimagga. There > is approximately 700 main pages + notes for the rest ~250 pages. If > one reads 10 pages per day, then one will read basically all main > stuff in <3 month. Some books that more or less organize Buddha's > message in the the suttas may take few hundred pages (such as Life > of the Buddha). Eventually, a year of intense theoretical study may > be much more than enough. Then what? Putting it into practice. > ------ N: Yes, study and practice should go together, otherwise the study would only be theoretical. It is very meaningful that the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma to his mother in the Heaven of the Thirtythree and this alternately with satipatthaana. I heard Kh Sujin say: the study of the Abhidhamma is useless without satipatthaana. She gave an example of study and at the same time considering what one learnt in daily life, in relation to the earth kasina. We read in the Visuddhimagga all about the way of preparing the kasina and how to use it as a meditation subject. She said, all the objects we like are only earth. The sense objects are ruupas and in each group of ruupa there is the element of earth, appearing as hardness or softness. We just touch hardness, it is only earth. We like beautiful colours, sounds, etc. They are only earth. The meaning of kasina is encompassing all. Understanding leads to detachment. -------- > > > A: Entire Essence of Dhamma could be summed up in one sentence as > "nothing is worth clinging to" . So this phrase should be a guiding > principle in interpretation of the meaning of Dhamma. > -------- N: Yes, the Buddha's teachings have as their aim detachment, from the beginning to the end. It is good to know when we fail, when we take realities for self, such as thinking. Kh Sujin had a good example: usually thinking is akusala. We have learnt that when the objective is not daana, siila or bhaavana it is akusala citta that thinks. We have to check this right now. During an India tour Kh Sujin said that when we think: the market of Varanasi, there can be akusala citta already. It seems very innocent, and we do not notice when thinking is akusala. We learnt through the Abhidhamma about the different processes of cittas and the javanacittas that are either kusala or akusala. But we have to verify this in daily life. ----- A:Here is the catch. We can cling not only to material things, but to "ideas" and "teachings" as well. So by studying more than enough for Arhatship, one could actually be cultivating craving for mind/objects and or craving for becoming [someone who knows a lot]. Also the more interpretation we read, the more possibility of subtle mistranslations or misunderstandings to accumulate. ------ N: Therefore we have to verify what we learn right now. Only the present reality can be really and thoroughly investigated. I was often reminded in Thailand that it is not a self who studies and considers, only a conditioned reality. But we often take our studying for self. It is good to know. ------ Nina. #114206 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristics of cittas? nilovg Dear Philip, You have very good questions and I want to take more time over them. Nina. Op 23-mrt-2011, om 23:35 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Often we are encouraged to notice or be aware or consider or > investgate the characteristics of cittas. > 1) Can characteristics of cittas be understood easily? I feel I > have no understanding of "characteristics of cittas." > 2) Do those verbs such as "notice" or "consider" or "investigate" > or "be aware of" have different meanings that indicate different > degrees of sati or panna or othrer factors such as samadhi or do > you use them synonymously? #114207 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammas are bad (especially nama) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E & Phil, > > --- On Fri, 18/3/11, Robert E wrote: > > > > I vote for namas, which actually produce proliferations and delusions. Without akusala namas, rupa would be no problem at all. > > >I guess I'm saying that rupas are neutral. They are magnets for attachment, but only for akusala namas. The clinging, like the liberation, is always in the nama, not the rupa. > .... > S: Rob, your answers are just like the one K.Sujin gave:-) Uh oh, I'd better be careful - seems like dsg may be rubbing off on me a little bit... :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #114208 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:43 am Subject: Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) epsteinrob Hi Sarah and Pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Dear Sarah and RobE, > > Thanks for your replies and discussion. > > > S: I wonder if you've started your new job? > > pt: Yes, a month ago, and still trying to do my old one at the same time. Same with old and new studies. So not much time at all (I am trying to sort out the yahoo return mail issue though - lot of back and forth but nothing definite atm). > > > > S: When awareness arises and is aware of a reality, it doesn't know anything - it's just aware of what appears. > > pt: Ok, that makes sense, in that the function of sati is to be aware rather than to know, which is for panna to do. I'm still wondering though, in the cases when metta arises without understanding - that lack of understanding would relate only to the lack of right understanding of the satipatthana kind? Or would it also lack understanding of the samatha kind which recognises the value of metta? > > It seems strange to me that sati would arise without at least some sort of understanding, if even just on an intellectual level, which recognises the experience of metta as something other than pain for example. > > > S: p.s learning to use my new macbook air - great for travel (and the tiny studio flat we now live in here in HK) AND IT PRINTS:-) > > pt: Good news:) I'll miss fiddling with your old laptop though. Looks like its karma wasn't that bad after all, considering it got reincarnated as macbook air :) Hm...this conversation has upset my Macbook plans, which were already unbalanced. I've been trying to find an excuse to buy an iPad and almost got there when my Macbook Pro started making weird noises, suggesting that the hard drive is about to blow any day or week. So I'm now thinking I can't get the iPad if I also have to afford a new Macbook Pro. The Pro is heavy, so I was hoping for something light and something more substantial with good storage. Now, Sarah, your joy over the Macbook Air has got me thinking it would be a good compromise - light but large enough to work on; yet I am still lusting after the iPad, and the storage space of the MacBook. I'm feeling slightly dizzy over the variable options... But thanks for sharing, both Sarah and Pt, and for helping create conditions for me to get even more confused! ;-( Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #114209 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta, no contro vs meditation . Why is there a problem? epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, philip Coristine wrote: > > > > Hi Robert and all > > Was waiting to see if there would be a follow up to this, but will now thank you for this reminder of the the Hell realms (modern people like to change them into psychological states and other easy dodgings.) When we were discussing recently A. Sujin laughed at my aspiration to try to avoid rebirth in the Hell realms, perhaps because there is no telling. In any case I am very grateful to be remunded to understand the present monent because development of understanding and the liberations it can help lead to is the only way to cut off the door to rebirth in the Hell realms, but I am also grateful that I still aspire to try to avoid behaviour that the Buddha defones as involving akusala kamma patha that can be of the degree to condition rebirth in the Hell realms. > Ken, I will say this just once, but I think your unwillingness to be concerned about the results of your deeds (perhaps you are playacting) makes you "unafraid of wrongdoing" as defined by the Buddha. But you can say the only meaningful fear of wrongdoing is hiri/otappa that accompany kusala abstention and that is a deeply attractive understanding, that's for sure! I don't want to complicate the above valid point, or show off too much of my ignorance, but I think it is worth noting that the notion that the hell realms are psychological states represents not only the ignorant view of those who think they "are not real," but also represents the advanced view that sees all of reality in terms of experienced dhammas. I think it is a definition of the K. Sujin/dsg wing of Abhidhammikas that there really is nothing in the universe but experienced rupas and experiencing namas. Many times I have noted with interest that vipaka is defined by those who have adopted this philosophy as nothing other than "unpleasant objects of experience." Rather than seeing the hell realms as "places" that "one" can "got to" in return for "evil deeds," instead they are seen as "experiential objects" based on one form or another of akusala cittas, which cause results in line with the corresponding clinging, aversion and delusion that those akusala cittas set in motion and which then form dormant accumulations and tendencies as they are passed on. I agree that one should guard one's actions as well as thoughts, since it is the element of intention at any point in time which causes those actions to take place, and it is that same element of intention that causes the unpleasant vipaka to arise at a later time. I just wanted to make the point that all of this takes place in the realm of namas that are kusala or akusala, and that it is akusala namas that are seen to cause the vipaka that arises later. So I would say that in order to be properly afraid of akusala actions, one should be aware of what is in the mind at that time, and look at the root of the action as well as the action itself. That sort of awareness combines the understanding of the dhammas that cause vipaka with a healthy view of what actions to avoid as a worldling. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #114210 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:20 pm Subject: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- On Tue, 22/3/11, Robert E wrote: > >I've always had the feeling that Buddha was very good at taking common meanings of the day and converting them into new understandings. For instance, his use of the term Brahmin, as I recall, starts pointing towards those who are following the Noble 8f path, rather than traditional Hinduism. > ... > S: Yes, a good example. > ... > > .I've thought that the kind of analysis that those such as Patanjali did in the yoga sutras, including the Ashtanga, or eight-fold path of yoga, was a template for the Budda's Noble 8f Path, which he also expanded upon to create his 8 fold path. > ... > S: Another excellent example. He took the same terminology, turned it on its head, so to speak, so that what was taught used the same terms but with a completely new meaning. > ... > >I think it's pretty smart to take a familiar template and expand upon it to create a new level of meaning, and before you know it, some of the meanings are completely different, while some of them, such as jhana/samadhi, are still useful in a new context. > ... > S: yes, as usual, you've summarised my meaning very clearly. Add any more examples that you come across anytime. Thank you very much for your thoughts on these examples. I am happy to see that some of the correspondences I noticed make some sense to you. Seeing that continuity of terminology and practice from an earlier time to the time of the Buddha gives me a sense of Buddhism as the unique creation that it was at the time, and how skillful Buddha was in bringing his new meanings to light. Really, in a sense, a brilliant teacher, skilled technician, and even an excellent politician, taking the culture of the time and using it to the advantage of those who were ready for a new way. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #114211 From: philip Coristine Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:58 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Characteristics of cittas? philofillet Thanks Nina Yes, good question if I say so myself. It all comes down to panna, of course, but thete may be helpful road signs,,, I will add a question. If there is micca sati, does it mean object of awareness is a concept rather than a characteristic of a citta because micca sati is just thinking? Thanks again, please no hurry Metta Phil #114212 From: philip Coristine Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:44 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Characteristics of cittas? philofillet Hello again Nina, before you answer I would like to refocus tge question to "characteristic of a reality" ratger than "citta." I was talking about hardness, that is rupa. A Sujin has saud it is easier to underatand ruoa than nama, and usually we hear about hatdness or temperature as object of sati, perhaps those are the objects on which baby sati(nascent sati?) is likely to begin to develop? Btw, I like p. 69 of Spd, the man who thought he had sati of hardness re road, shoe....that is micca sati Sorry for any confusion with all these jumbled questions/comments, I should read that chapter (just glanced through so far) first. Plz feel free to pick up any one point rather than covering all the questions.. Metta, Phil #114213 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:21 pm Subject: Re: Anatta, no contro vs meditation . Why is there a problem? epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E (and Alex), > > ---- > <. . .> > > RE: Ken, you have also said that the understanding that is more direct, beyond > pariyatti, is for those with "but a little dust in their eyes," and not for you > or for us, and we have also heard many times that it will take many lifetimes > for pariyatti to give forth to more direct understanding, so it is an issue. It > means that we are to be content with indirect, theoretical understanding for our > entire lifetime, according to this view. > ----- > > KH: Maybe so, but I have also argued there is only the present moment - no permanent being that lives again and again. No permanent being, of course. Only the present moment, absolutely. But: whether your understanding is really right or not - that is uncertain unless and until some real attainment arises, and some real panna certifies it. So as much as you may think your view *of* the moment is correct, it may in fact be *wrong* view. You are convinced that all you need to know to be on the right track is that there is only the present moment and that handles everything. However, that is NOT the truth and it is NOT what you believe. How can I say that? Without the magical insertion of accumulations and tendencies being conveniently passed on from one citta to the next, which TRANSCENDS the moment, and obviates the momentariness and passing away character of the fleeting moment completely, there would be no path, no realization, not accumulation of panna, no enlightenment. So it is NOT the stark and spare realization of the moment and its nature, nor the nature of a "single dhamma in a single moment" that causes enlightenment "all by itself," but a non-momentary, cumulative, developmental process that could never take place and never does take place in a single moment without the benefit of trillions and zillions of snowballing accumulations that have gone through billions of lifetimes in order to reach their current state. So I would say your understanding of what "nothing but the moment" means is sadly lacking. The system that allows for enlightenment to take place, a way out of samsara - the deluded moment - to panna - a moment of understanding, is not about "the moment," it is about how panna accumulates over many many moments. So let's start there, and stop talking about "only the moment," like that is the religion, when the only thing that makes the noble 8fold path work AT ALL is accumulations over time. That opens the door to development and cultivation being more important than the moment in and of its own right. So then where is your right knowledge, when it ignores everything that makes the path work and is only focused on the "moment" in its own right like a mantra, which if focused on all by itself would do nothing but repeat its own delusory understanding over and over again. Without accumulation of panna, the moment sucks. > If there is only the present moment, what difference would it make if enlightenment was going to happen next week, or not until another trillion trillion lifetimes down the track? The difference that it makes is that a/ if you don't test your understanding and find out if it is correct you may never reach the end of samsara, even in a trillion trillion lifetimes. Buddha made a point of saying to "come and see," not "wait forever," but I guess that doesn't bother you much; and b/ Buddha said that if followed, the correct path would lead to enlightnment in 7 years, 7 months or 7 days. He did not say that it was necessary to wait a trillion lifetimes, and finally: c/ A trillion lifetimes of suffering under delusion is no laughing matter. Better to seek the correct path now. Buddha did not want us to be complacent, but to use energy and right effort to break through the cycle of death and rebirth. BTW, death and rebirth are not just a matter of what exists in one or another particular moment, but are also matters of accumulations. Without accumulations over time both kusala and akusala, which turn up in a given moment, there would not only be no enlightenment, but no delusion either. We would be dumb as a stump and perfectly happy. > ----------------------- > > RE: No one denies that understanding Dhamma is important and that Right View is a most important component of the path. > ----------------------- > > KH: Actually, a lot of people do deny that. Well they're not relevant at the moment then. Let's just talk you and me. :-) > ------------- > > RE: The problem is that in dismissing any form of direct practice, and insisting on pariyatti only as the path for most people, you really intellectualize the path. > ------------- > > KH: The "problem" is that I can't make myself understood. Oh, you're understood alright. That is not the problem. The problem is that everyone disagrees with you! :-) Just kidding. The problem is that you are myopic. You accept the system of accumulations and passing of tendencies, panna, akusala, etc., from one citta to the next, and yet in the same breath you say there is a new world with every new moment. Well that's not true, dammit. In every new moment there are all the accumulations from all the other moments +1, and if you want to be coherent, you can't believe one thing in one part of your "right understanding" and then ignore it when you're talking about your treasured concept, "the moment." You've got it idealized but it has no relation to the reality of the path, or even to your own beliefs about the path. I call that having convenient blinders when it suits you, and calling upon the dogma you like for one occasion and another dogma for another occasion. It has to all be understood all the time, and understood as a whole. > I am trying to say there is only the present moment - only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. Apart from those dhammas there is no practice of *any* kind. And because of accumulations and development, which are the actual vehicles of the path, practice is a living reality, as the natural expression of the development of mindfulness and panna, just as every action in the world is the result of a nama of some kind, a matching intention. > ------------------------ > > RE: And it becomes a serious possibility that many people following such an approach will wind up spinning wheels in their head and going further away from direct seeing, rather than closer, and deeper and deeper into conceptualization and mental proliferation. > ------------------------ > > KH: 'Moving closer' and 'moving further away' are the functions of right understanding and wrong understanding respectively. They take place in a single moment, or not at all. They take place in successive single moments or not at all. If you only take one moment into account, you are ignoring accumulations and development. If you make believe that you can talk about accumulations and talk about "one single moment only" at the same time, you are delusional. > ------------------------------- > > RE: If a balance were admitted between right intellectual understanding and direct seeing as a practice, ie, meditation and discernment in everyday life, rather than seeing all such practice as self-based effort, one could have a much greater assurance that the theoretical understanding was being applied to something more than its own mental fine-tuning and further elucidation of even more erudite concepts and constructs. > -------------------------------- > > KH: You can't have it both ways; either the real world exists in a single moment, or it doesn't exist at all. Because of accumulations, you must have it both ways. If the real world existed in a single moment and that moment had no relation to the next moment, enlightenment would never even be a possibility. YOU can't have it both ways. Either you accept development *between* moments rather than a single isolated one, or there is no path, period. > ------------------ > > RE: That is my view in any case, that if you want to see if your theoretical understanding is correct, you have to apply it and see if it works or not, not wait for many lifetimes to see if it all works > out without ever testing it along the way. > ----------------- > > KH: I think I can see now that the theory holds up. There is nothing that can't be explained in terms of conditioned dhammas. > > I am not saying I have all the explanations. You would have to ask other DSG people for that. :-) Well then its a theory on your part. I don't see conditioned dhammas with the same dogmatic eyes that you do, that denies your own understanding of conditions and development. Dhammas are conditioned by accumulations. By definition, that means there is more than one moment involved. At a given time, one citta while falling passes on accumulations to the next citta rising, and so what took place at one moment is passed on in the next. > ------------------------- > <. . .> > > > KH: Without right theoretical understanding, your phrase "let go of clinging" could mean anything. <. . .> > > > RE: And how well do you have to understand the concept before you see if it allows for actual letting go or not? > ------------------------ > > KH: How do you understand Alex's concept of "letting go of clinging"? How does he understand it? > > Does he mean alobha (non-clinging) which is a reality that arises purely by conditions? Or does he mean something else? > > Surely only one understanding of the term be in accordance with the Dhamma. Only one can lead to direct right-understanding. Using the same terminology does not guarantee the same understanding, or any understanding at all. Using different terminology does not mean that there is not the same reality being understood, since it is not dependent on terminology, as A. Sujin often points out. You often say there is only one right understanding, and ignore your own teacher who says that the understanding of what arises in the moment is based on experiencing it, not knowing the right way of talking about it. You should not doubt Alex's understanding because he doesn't use the same words as you. You might learn something from him if you get past that. > -------------------------- > > RE: There's got to be a balance there, and there's > got to be a way of testing and developing your understanding correctly in this lifetime, not wait for another in the distant future. > --------------------------- > > KH: I agree there can be a kind of balance between conventional existence and ultimate existence. There doesn't have to be a complete contrast. And so a student of the Dhamma lives a balanced, natural, lifestyle - neither striving for enlightenment nor doing nothing towards it. You hope you're doing that, and not clinging to views while you're at it. > --------------------------- > <. . .> > >> KH: People who have read and thought correctly will know what is meant by 'clinging' and 'cessation'. Therefore, they can begin to follow the path. > > > RE: And will non-clinging, detachment and release actually take place because they now know "what is meant" by clinging and cessation? Will their knowing what is referred to by Buddhist terms lead to letting go and actual development of the path? > --------------------------------------------- > > KH: Yes, in a way. Any moment of right intellectual understanding is kusala, and therefore free of ignorance and clinging. Admittedly, it is a poor cousin of direct, supramundane right-understanding, but the difference is only a matter of degree. You'd better hope you're right. I'm not sure the Buddha ever personally verified the above philosophy - that any kusala will accumulate more kusala and will eventually guarantee right understanding and direct experiencing and detachment. I don't think the Buddha ever said that was the path. Got a quote? It is one way of approaching Buddhism. I'd say it's a pretty mystical way, based on faith, that says that x, y and z are kusala, thus the path, and a, b and c are not, therefore not the path. Kusala refers to those things that grow and develop the path factors to be sure, but kusala is not itself a substance that accumulates in its own right regardless of actual practices and understandings. On this point, I guess we diverge. Like anatta and bunch of other principles that Buddha talked about sensibly, you seem to have turned them into "magic fairy dust" which will eventually magically turn you into an enlightened person in a distant lifetime, whether or not you ever do anything to follow and develop the path within yourself. Hope you're right, because you have no way of testing it. > ------------------- > RE: Under what conditions:? What else is needed to actualize the path? > ------------------- > > KH: Nothing apart from conditions is needed. > > ------------------------------- Yeah? What conditions? And how are they developed? By chance? > >> KH: The meditator, if he has *not* read and thought correctly about those things, cannot possibly follow the path. > > > RE: Well you've given two delightfully well-contrived straw man alternatives here, Ken: The reader/thinker who "knows" what is what, and the non-reading/non-thinking meditator who does "not know." > ------------------------------- > > KH: I think neither Alex nor I was engaged in straw-man tactics *on this occasion.* :-) > > I think Alex was giving an example of a jhana master (someone who had temporarily suppressed defilements) *as distinct from* a Dhamma-student (someone who had listened to the Dhamma, considered it, and understood how it applied to the present moment). > > --------------------------- > > RE: How about the actual third correct alternative, which is the meditator who reads, thinks and understands and whose understanding is further developed, tested and refined through meditation? That is the true alternative to both of your straw men, and is also the correct way of balancing the factors necessary to follow the path. > -------------------------- > > KH: Is there such a further-development? As I understand the factors leading to enlightenment there is no mention of anything apart from good friendship, listening, considering and understanding. Then you need to catch up on your reading of about 40 years worth of teaching which you apparently consider worthless. > --------------- > <. . .> > >>> A: IMHO, it is the actual behaviour that indicates the level of understanding. Is there clinging or not? If there is clinging, then one has not understood the dangers of it. > > > > >> KH: <. . .> Do you mean right behaviour comes first, followed by right understanding? > >> > > > RE: No, it means the proof is in the pudding, that's all; that you will see whether someone is actually acting in a non-clinging manner. > -------------- > > KH: I think the example Alex gave was of a jhana master who had suppressed detachment without having theoretical knowledge of the Dhamma, as compared to a someone who was still vulnerable to attachment, but who had theoretical knowledge. > > -------------------------- > <. . .> > > RE: Who says that Alex doesn't already have a good theoretical understanding of Dhamma? Why do you always put this off for the future? It is not a mystery that "letting go of senses" refers to jhana, > --------------------------- > > KH: Yes, "letting go of senses" was a reference to jhana, but does Alex, or any of us, know what jhana is? > > ------------------------------------ > > RE: but since you have not found this topic of interest, you have not engaged in a thorough enough theoretical study of this area, so you don't see what it means. > ------------------------------------- > > KH: Any student of conditionality will know more about jhana than most meditators will ever know. That's a ridiculous statement, and shows how out of touch with the reality of the path you really are. Jhana is a defined state of withdrawing the senses and thought-processes to focus on a highly refined object of awareness. It doesn't mean some other weird thingy you may have created that requires no effort on your part. For pity's sake. > --------------------------------------------- > > RE: As for letting go of clinging, it means that when an experience arises, whether it is an object-experience or an experience of a thought-form or feeling or perceptual construct, that clinging > or attachment does not arise, or if it does arise, one immediately sees that with mindfulness and understanding and lets it go. > --------------------------------------------- > > KH: I can basically agree with that. Even though the terminology needs tweaking! :-) I think you should try dropping terminology for a while and thinking for yourself. You might find out how much or little you actually know. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114214 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:31 am Subject: Fwd: earthquake. nilovg Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Van: Nina van Gorkom > Datum: 26 maart 2011 10:31:08 GMT+01:00 > Aan: Miyamoto Tadao > Onderwerp: Antw.: earthquake. > > Dear Tadao, > Op 23-mrt-2011, om 5:03 heeft Miyamoto Tadao het volgende geschreven: > >> This may be a very cruel word, but all the suffering is caused by >> our attachment to things and people. We cannot deny the truth. >> Also I agree with you that we ought to develop compassion as well >> as equiminity since every being carries his/her own kamma. > ---------- > Dukkha has many aspects and one of these is the dukkha of samsara, > of being in the cycle of birth and death. As you well know, we are > in the cycle because of ignorance and clinging. We cling to life, > to rebirth. We cling to seeing right now, to hearing right now. > There are losses and calamities in each life, in some lives more > than in other lives. > So long as ignorance has not been eradicated by fully developed > pa~n~naa we go on in the cycle. There will be samsara dukkha. But > by beginning to develop understanding of naama and ruupa appearing > in our life we will be able to face the vicissitudes of life as > being conditioned dhammas. It is understanding most of all that > will condition more compassion and equanimity. > Therefore I appreciate it very much whenever Khun Sujin reminds us: > do not forget seeing now, visible object now, they appear all the > time. Begin to develop more ujnderstanding of these realities. > Whenever we come to her with a problem she gives the same answer. > Do not forget this moment. > ------- > Best wishes, > Nina. > > #114215 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristics of cittas? nilovg Dear Philip, I like to dwell on your and others' questions since they inspire me. Op 23-mrt-2011, om 23:35 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Often we are encouraged to notice or be aware or consider or > investigate the characteristics of cittas. > 1) Can characteristics of cittas be understood easily? I feel I > have no understanding of "characteristics of cittas." ------- N: Characteristic: this in contrast to merely thinking about them. This is in contrast to theory. Although theory is also necessary. But whatever we learn should always be related to our daily life, we should not forget this. We learn about citta that sees as different from citta that hears, and we can learn to differenciate them. It seems that they appear at the same time, but they have different objects, they arise at different moments. ------- > > Ph: 2) Do those verbs such as "notice" or "consider" or > "investigate" or "be aware of" have different meanings that > indicate different degrees of sati or panna or othrer factors such > as samadhi or do you use them synonymously? ------- N: They indicate baby sati, as you express this so well. There may not be clear sati, but we begin to verify in daily life seeing or hearing when they appear. We begin again and again, perhaps our whole life, but this does not matter. We should really not mind about this. Investigate: beginning to understand. We do not think so much of sati, but understanding is the aim. Having more understanding of what appears now. ---------- Ph: We can find definitions of characteristics in books, but panna must understand the characteristic through experience, and it always different, for example hardness is always different, coarse or fine etc...so perhaps there is no way for you to tell me how to understand what "charactetistics of cittas" means...but on the other hand they are defined in detail in Vism for example for some good reason , surely... ------- N: Whatever we read in the Visuddhimagga should be verified right now. "It does not stay in the book". -------- Ph: But I have more confidence now that panna can develop in a natural way to better understand the characteristics of cittas. When I was in Thailand A. Sujin spoke about confidence for understanding and inspired me, fostered confidence. ------- N: Very good. If there is no confidence in the value of understanding the truth of realities, there are no conditions to develop it. I liked the photo of you so actively holding the mike and being so attentive. -------- Ph: I will add a question. If there is micca sati, does it mean object of awareness is a concept rather than a characteristic of a citta because micca sati is just thinking? I would like to refocus the question to "characteristic of a reality" rather than "citta." -------- N: Micchaa sati is rather clinging to sati, trying to have it, doing all sorts of things to induce it, and then taking it for sati. ------- Ph: I was talking about hardness, that is rupa. A Sujin has said it is easier to understand rupa than nama, and usually we hear about hardness or temperature as object of sati, perhaps those are the objects on which baby sati(nascent sati?) is likely to begin to develop? ----- N: Let us not think of: this first, then that. It depends entirely on sati what object it is aware of, be it naama or ruupa. Let us pay attention to this: is there understanding of what appears now, be it naama or ruupa? Understanding can begin. We do not have to name realities, just attend to their characteristics. -------- Ph: Btw, I like p. 69 of Spd, the man who thought he had sati of hardness re road, shoe....that is micca sati ------- N: He did not understand what the object of sati was. He took thinking for sati. He was thinking, naming, labeling. ------ Nina. #114216 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:45 pm Subject: Seeding the Way... bhikkhu5 Friends The Noble 8-fold Way grows out of Morality! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, even as any seed and plant grows, increases, & expands, based upon the earth, established upon earth, so too, similarly here, based upon morality, established upon morality, does any Bhikkhu develop and cultivate the Noble 8-fold Way, and thereby he attains to growth, to increase, to expansion in all advantageous states. And how does a Bhikkhu do so? Here, the Bhikkhu develops: Right View , Right Motivation, Right Speech , Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort , Right Awareness, and Right Concentration, all based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, and culminating in release. It is in this way, that a Bhikkhu, based on morality, established upon morality, develops and cultivates this Noble 8-fold Way, and thereby he attains to growth, to increase, and to expansion in and of any advantageous mental state! <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nik�ya. Book [V:46-7] section 45: The Way. 100: Seeds ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam�hita _/\_ * <...> #114217 From: nichicon cp Date: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:08 am Subject: Sangiitisutta Sevens #12 nichiconn dear Friends, CSCD (332 continued:) < Date: Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:37 pm Subject: What Ivan said philofillet Hi all One of the highlights of my trip to Thailand was meeting Ivan (known as Matt Roke on this board) because he has always impressed me in his posts or in recorded discussions, such clear strong explanation of Dhamma. The most impressive thing he said to me in Thailand was seemingly obvious but contains so much of the Dhamma in a few words: "A citta rises and falls away. And then another one arises." For some reason that is the message that sticks with me ftom my trip, along with A Sujin saying "not enough" (about my beloved conventional sila) and "be confident with understanding." (As Nina said in her recent post to me - thanks for that Nina - there has to be confidence or understanding will not develop.) So thank you, Ivan, if you are reading this, it was great to meet you. Metta, Phil p.s. another one sticks with me. I am fond of speculating on my balance/accumulated preponderance of kilesas - as in the caritas- but what Sukin said helped clear up that: "One thing for sure is that there is always moha.". So as always it all comes back to understanding. #114219 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:27 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta Sevens #12 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, Sutta 12 and commentary. Walshe DN. 33.2.3(12) 'Seven latent proclivities (anusayaa): sensuous greed (kaama-raaga), resentment (pa.tigha), views, doubts, conceit, craving for becoming (bhava-raaga), ignorance. (Satta anusayaa - kaamaraagaanusayo, pa.tighaanusayo, di.t.thaanusayo, vicikicchaanusayo, maanaanusayo, bhavaraagaanusayo, avijjaanusayo.) ------ N: Defilements, akusala cetasikas, are of different levels, they may be subtle or more coarse. Defilements that are transgressions (vítikkama kilesa), are coarse defilements of the degree of unwholesome courses of action through body or speech. Defilements one is possessed with and that arise with akusala citta (pariyu.t.thāna kilesa) are medium defilements that disturb the citta. Latent tendencies (anusaya kilesa) are subtle defilements that lie dormant in the citta and do not arise but condition the arising of akusala citta. -------- The commentary to the Sangiitisutta mentions that the latent tendencies are lying dormant because they have not been eradicated (appahiina.t.thena anusayanti). The latent tendency of sense desire is sense desire that is powerful (thaamagato) and this goes for all latent tendencies. The subcommentary elaborates as to not being eradicated: they have not been extirpated by the path. As to lying dormant: they are lying dormant following the succession [continuum, santaana, N: namely, of cittas arising and falling away]. The Pali has: anu anu sayanti, an intensivum, indicating: again and again or following. The commentary explains here the word: anu- sayati, it lies dormant, is inherent. It shows its persistence. The subcommentary mentions that when there is an opportunity the defilements that are as it were lying dormant persistingly in the succession (of cittas) arise. As to being powerful, they have reached strength. The latent tendency of sense desire and the other latent tendencies should be seen as having a specific nature, not common to other defilements. Therefore it is said in the Abhidhamma that he abandons the latent tendency of sense desire that is powerful. Whatever is called the latent tendency of sense desire is uneradicated sense desire. -------- N: The latent tendencies have the nature of akusala dhamma, but they are different from all other defilements since they are subtle defilements which are of great strength. They are lying dormant in each citta and they can only be completely eradicated by the path- consciousness. The text of the commentary to the Visuddhimagga explains that the latent tendencies are of a nature that is powerful (thaamagato). They are as hard to remove as is dirt in the eye that one tries to remove with a lubricant oil as medicine. It is essential to have more understanding of the latent tendencies and their power. They are called subtle defilements because they do not arise with the akusala citta, but they are powerful. Since they have not been eradicated they can strongly condition and influence our behaviour. They lie dormant in the citta like microbes infesting the body. So long as they have not been eradicated we are like sick people, because they can condition the arising of akusala citta when there are the appropriate conditions. They can condition the arising of akusala citta even to the degree of transgression of sīla at any time, and thus, more defilements are accumulated again and added to the latent tendencies. The teaching of the latent tendencies helps us to see why the defilements in our life are so tenacious, arising again and again, and why their arising is unforeseeable and uncontrollable. They show that defilements are conditioned dhammas, devoid of self. ----------- Pali commentary: Appahiina.t.thena anusayantiiti anusayaa. Thaamagato kaamaraago kaamaraagaanusayo. Esa nayo sabbattha. ------- Nina. #114220 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:34 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 6. nilovg Dear Han, Op 25-mrt-2011, om 11:33 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > > [Sarah]: I would have thought that in the context of the quotes > regarding the development of the path, that the mundane knowledge > would refer to insight, vipassana, but I may have missed something. > > [Han]: Yes, vipassanaa ~naa.na also is applicable. In that case, we > can say that [Pahaatabba.m is a term which can be tada"nga-pahaana, > or vikkhambhana-pahaana, or samuccheda pahaana. So, I think the > abandoning of all that can be abandoned by a given mundane or > supramundane knowledge, is included in the word "nullifies".] ------ N: This is true, but in the context there is reference to meanings 7 and 8: (7) arisen through non-suppression (avikkhambhituppanna.m), defilements that cannot be eradicated by the attainment of jhaana and that arise when there is an opportunity, , and (8) arisen through non- abolition (asamugghaatituppanna.m), defilements that cannot be eradicated yet by path-consciousness. I just follow the Thai translation, and this will appear in my next issue, no 7. ------ Nina. #114221 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:05 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 6. hantun1 Dear Nina (Sarah), > > > [Sarah]: I would have thought that in the context of the quotes regarding the development of the path, that the mundane knowledge would refer to insight, vipassana, but I may have missed something. > > [Han]: Yes, vipassanaa ~naa.na also is applicable. In that case, we can say that [Pahaatabba.m is a term which can be tada"nga-pahaana, or vikkhambhana-pahaana, or samuccheda pahaana. So, I think the abandoning of all that can be abandoned by a given mundane or supramundane knowledge, is included in the word "nullifies".] > [Nina]: This is true, but in the context there is reference to meanings 7 and 8: (7) arisen through non-suppression (avikkhambhituppanna.m), defilements that cannot be eradicated by the attainment of jhaana and that arise when there is an opportunity, , and (8) arisen through non-abolition (asamugghaatituppanna.m), defilements that cannot be eradicated yet by path-consciousness. I just follow the Thai translation, and this will appear in my next issue, no 7. ------ [Han]: I was only concentrating on the Pali word Pahaatabba.m which is non-specific about the type of pahaana. But in the context of Vism. XXII,91 what you said must be correct. I will wait for your next issue. Respectfully, Han #114222 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:47 am Subject: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 7. nilovg Dear Han and friends, Ch 4, no 7. Recapitulation: The Visuddhimagga refers to the eight meanings of upanna , arisen, namely: (1) as actually occurring, (2) as been and gone, (3) by opportunity made, (4) by having soil [to grow in], (5) arisen as happening, (6) arisen with apprehension of an object , (7) arisen through non- suppression, (8) arisen through non-abolition. The items 6, 7, 8, are included in 4: having soil [to grow in]. These refer to the latent tendencies that can be eradicated. The following section deals with this again. ---------- From the texts quoted before: from the commentary to the Vinaya [1] , from the commentary to the Vibhanga (the Dispeller of Delusion), from the commentary to the Mahaasakuludaayisutta, and from the Visuddhimagga (XXII, Purity by Knowledge and Vision), it can be concluded that four meanings of arisen refer to the akusala dhammas which can be eradicated by path-consciousness. They are: (4) arisen having obtained a plane (bhuumiladdhuppanna.m), (6) arisen with apprehension of an object (aaramma.naadhigahituppanna.m), defilements that are there when an object is experienced, (7) arisen through non-suppression (avikkhambhituppanna.m), defilements that cannot be eradicated by the attainment of jhaana and that arise when there is an opportunity , and (8) arisen through non-abolition (asamugghaatituppanna.m), defilements that cannot be eradicated yet by path-consciousness. These four meanings of arisen refer to the latent tendencies that are akusala dhammas lying dormant in the citta, akusala dhammas that do not arise and perform a function. But when there is an appropriate condition akusala dhamma arises and performs the function of that particular akusala dhamma [2]. The path-consciousness eradicates these latent tendencies that are not dependent on time, thus, that are not past, future or present. As was stated before with reference to the latent tendencies being timeless: when the magga-citta arises it eradicates defilements, but it should not be said that these are past, future or present. ******** footnotes: 1. See the preceding Ch 3, no 5 of this series on the latent tendencies. The sub-commentary to the Vinaya deals with the latent tendencies in the context of the eradication of transgressions through body and speech. The latent tendencies themselves cannot transgress siila. They are lying dormant and follow the continuous succession of cittas, and they cannot yet be eradicated. The sub-commentary that was quoted is merely an additional elaboration of the fact that latent tendencies are not medium defilements arising with the akusala citta (pariyutthaana kilesa), but that they are akusala of a different level. When there are the appropriate conditions they can arise as medium defilement. 2. The latent tendency itself does not arise but it can condition the arising of akusala citta. ------- Nina. #114223 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:01 pm Subject: Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 7. hantun1 Dear Nina (Sarah), Thank you very much for Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 7. It is all clear and I understand them all. --------------- I only want to go back to your message #114220. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/114220 In that message you seemed to object our (Sarah and I) inclusion of vipassanaa ~naa.na and tada"nga-pahaana in the context of Vism XXII, 91. In that paragraph, there is the following sentence. "But the four kinds of 'arisen', namely, (iv) by having soil [to grow in], (vi) with apprehension of an object, (vii) through non-suppression, and (viii) through non-abolition, can all be abandoned because a given mundane or supramundane knowledge, when it arises, nullifies a given one of these modes of being arisen." Based upon Sarah's suggestion, I have included tada"nga-pahaana, in addition to vikkhambhana-pahaana and samuccheda pahaana in the word "Pahaatabba.m", which is translated in the text as "nullifies". The tada"nga-pahaana is temporary abandoning of kilesas by vipassanaa ~naa.na. My reasoning was if vikkhambhana-pahaana and jhana are included in the context of arising number (7) arisen through non-suppression (avikkhambhituppanna.m), defilements that cannot be eradicated by the attainment of jhaana and that arise when there is an opportunity, tada"nga-pahaana and vipassanaa ~naa.na should also be included in the context of arising number (4) arisen having obtained a plane (bhuumiladdhuppanna.m). According to Vism XXII, 90, the arisings Nos (6), (7), and (8) are to be understood as included by No (4). As regards No (4) arisen having obtained a plane (bhuumiladdhuppanna.m), in Vism XXII, 83, there is the following sentnce: "For the defilements that are the root of the round are inherent in [one's own] aggregates not fully understood by insight from the instant those aggregates arise. And that is what should be understood as 'arisen by having soil [to grow in]', in the sense of its being unabandoned." Pali text: Yattha yattha hi vipassanaaya apari~n~naataa khandhaa uppajjanti, tattha tattha uppaadato pabhuti tesu va.t.tamuula.m kilesajaata.m anuseti. Ta.m appahiina.t.thena bhuumiladdhanti veditabba.m. There is the indication of vipassanaa in that sentence. That was my reasoning. If my reasoning is incorrect, please excuse me. I will withdraw this post. Respectfully, Han #114224 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:06 pm Subject: Re: Anatta, no contro vs meditation . Why is there a problem? kenhowardau Hi Howard, ----- <. . .> > > KH: If the universe is entirely new, where is the relentless change? > H: At every instant, "whatever is" differs entirely from what was before, and what was before is entirely gone and no longer existent. And being entirely new is radical change. The radical nature of change doesn't make it unreal. But there IS a paradoxical element to it: Impermanence, whether viewed as instantaneous and continual (my perspective) or as discrete (your perspective), is what I mean by "change," and it is a fundamental aspect of conditioned reality, even though at any time, there is no instant but that instant! The facts of reality are deep, subtle, and not understandable (except superficially) by reason alone, but require supermundane wisdom. ------ KH: I am sure you are right, even though I can't quite grasp the aspect of relentless change. Satipatthana sees dukkha in all conditioned existence, and I suppose the fact it has been happening for an infinitely long time must be a part of dukkha. --------------------- <. . .> > H: I'm not sure that such deep knowing of "nowness" would sufficient, though I think it would have a major impact. From my Dhamma readings, the grasping of the tilakkhana and/or of paticcasamupada is needed. --------------------- KH: In our last conversation before your holiday you questioned my assertion, "Anatta means there are only dhammas." Now I am saying "There are only dhammas means anatta," and I still think I am right, either way. :-) Ken H #114225 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta, no contro vs meditation . Why is there a problem? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/27/2011 5:06:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: KH: In our last conversation before your holiday you questioned my assertion, "Anatta means there are only dhammas." Now I am saying "There are only dhammas means anatta," and I still think I am right, either way. :-) ================================ I think I follow you. I think that by 'self', you mean the same thing as 'soul'. That being the case, by 'anatta, you mean "no soul". You also take the position that paramattha dhammas are separate things with own being; i.e., "realities" in the strongest sense, and, of course, the only realities. With these as premises, the conclusion that 'anatta' means "there are only dhammas" is a valid one. I differ with you on your premises, however. My main point of difference is in my believing that nibbana is the only thing worthy of being called "a reality" other than in a conventional sense. Another point of difference is on the meaning of 'self'. I do take it to include "soul" but go beyond that, more generally taking it to mean "a core of unchanging and separate identity," i.e., essence, in anything. No conditioned dhamma is/has self in this sense by the very fact of it's being contingent and dependent, and nibbana lacks it by being beyond all conditions and entirely beyond positive characterization. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114226 From: "philip" Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:54 pm Subject: Understanding dhammas and detachment from beginning? philofillet Hi Nina I appreciate the opportunity to ask these questions and I'm sure they provide a good food for encouragement/inspiration for you too. As always I offer my thanks in advance and please only write some thoughts when you have time. Today's question is what is the relation between understandong dhammas when panna and sati are just beginning to develop and detachment? I still find the idea of "detachment from the beginning" to be difficult. Does asking this question mean there is not detachment? Thanks Metta, Phil #114227 From: "philip" Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta, no contro vs meditation . Why is there a problem? philofillet Hi Rob E Thanks for your as always clear thoughts on the Hell realms. I think my belief in the realms as a place of existence that one is born into is supported neither by common sense nor by the kind of advanced understanding of dhammas and the moment, but my sense is the Buddha encouraged a belief in it for people like me, of my weak panna and powerful defilements, but to be honest my belief in it is not strong...enough! Metta, Phil #114228 From: "philip" Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:25 pm Subject: Understanding dhammas and realms (Sarah) philofillet Hi Sarah, when you have a moment can I ask for some thoughts on this? If we understand there is only this one moment, does it mean that we do not believe that there is a realm that a being is born into, whether woeful or favourable? If this is a kind of imponderable topic that doesn't catch your interest please don't hesitate to say so, I would always like to offer you the option to opt out of my questions... Metta, Phil #114229 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:13 pm Subject: Re: Problems again szmicio Hi all, thanks for your support and advices > >L: Recently I had this 'falling in love' issues. I cant get over that. > > This can pain a lot. L:First of all I want to add something to my 'falling in love issues'and your 'observe each dhamma, every one is good.' So here the problem may be regret of my behaviour, not kusala one. Actually I Had a girlfriend which had a boyfriend (in prison), Now she has the same boyfriend in prison, I am studying far away and she has another one. (third one as far, I bet there will be ten):P Sorry thats funny, the point is i said many bad words to her. p.s Oh and I dont know if I mentioned that I am drug addicted. Best wishes Lukas #114230 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta, no contro vs meditation . Why is there a problem? epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Thanks for your as always clear thoughts on the Hell realms. I think my belief in the realms as a place of existence that one is born into is supported neither by common sense nor by the kind of advanced understanding of dhammas and the moment, but my sense is the Buddha encouraged a belief in it for people like me, of my weak panna and powerful defilements, but to be honest my belief in it is not strong...enough! I think that for someone of your or my level of understanding, the belief in hell realms is probably justified, as we would continue to interpret those "unpleasant dhammas" as actual hell-realms if we experienced them, just as we conceptualize our current realm as a real place. So one may as well believe in them for now, to encourage a more useful and pleasant field of experience in order to continue developing our understanding. On the other hand, there may also be some usefulness, from my point of view, when we experience unpleasant vipaka now, to say "This is a hell realm now at this moment" rather than thinking they are more distant in space or time. Whenever super-unpleasant vipaka arises it creates "hell on earth," and I'm not sure if the hell realms are that different except for degree. And for those who saw the tsunami coming towards them as they sat in their cars, or are living in a side-street in Calcutta with disease and without any food, even the degree would not be so different. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #114231 From: "azita" Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:39 pm Subject: Re: Understanding dhammas and realms (Sarah) gazita2002 hallo Phil, how are you? I'm thinking here that mayb yr not quite understanding present moment. What is present moment - is it not made up of citta, cetasika and rupa? Some present moments [pm] are vipaka, some kamma, others are neither. Kamma now has a future result, vipaka manifesting as seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching. Good kamma results in good vipaka, bad K in bad V. There are conditions for beings to enjoy pleasant result and unpleasant result - some of these conditions could mean a future existence in a really good/bad 'place' or anther realm. So in answer to yr question, yeah there are other realms where there are objects to be experienced thro the senses [or not depending on the realm] Present moment doesnt rule out other realms. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #114232 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:26 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, Ch 4, no 7. nilovg Dear Han, Op 27-mrt-2011, om 23:01 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Pali text: Yattha yattha hi vipassanaaya apari~n~naataa khandhaa > uppajjanti, tattha tattha uppaadato pabhuti tesu va.t.tamuula.m > kilesajaata.m anuseti. Ta.m appahiina.t.thena bhuumiladdhanti > veditabba.m. > > There is the indication of vipassanaa in that sentence. > That was my reasoning. ------ N: Yes, the Pali makes it clear. As you say, this is included in No (4) arisen having obtained a plane (bhuumiladdhuppanna.m). When I follow the Thai in my translation, in no. 7, this is not mentioned. But I think what you say makes sense. Nina. #114233 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding dhammas and detachment from beginning? nilovg Dear Philip, Op 28-mrt-2011, om 1:54 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Today's question is what is the relation between understanding > dhammas when panna and sati are just beginning to develop and > detachment? ------- N: When understanding is beginning it is still weak and also detachment is still weak. When understanding grows, also all good qualities that accompany pa~n~naa develop, become stronger. So, the perfections develop along with right understanding of naama and ruupa. Siila also develops, and generosity. There will be a keener understanding of the benefit of kusala and the ugliness of akusala. Energy also develops, there will be more courage to continue being aware and develop understanding of the present reality. And confidence too as you mentioned! I heard Kh Sujin say, develop satipa.t.thaana just naturally, being aware of whatever reality appears, and she added: do not be neglectful (in Thai: mai pramaat). These were also the Buddha's last words and she repeated them several times. This is good, otherwise people think just relax and be lazy. ------- > > Ph: I still find the idea of "detachment from the beginning" to be > difficult. > ------- N: Detachment from the beginning, this is very important. It means not clinging to a quick result of the practice, this is not realistic. Having no expectations, wishing to have sati more often and doing specific things to induce it. One begins to understand that it is not self who listens and considers the Dhamma, whereas before we heard the Dhamma we did not know this at all. We begin to see that realities are conditoned and are beyond control. That is already some small degree of detachment. Without this understanding we take for example siila for my siila, and we believe that we can manipulate and direct it on command. ------- > Ph: Does asking this question mean there is not detachment? ------ N: Not enough ;-)) ------- Nina. #114234 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems again nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 28-mrt-2011, om 5:13 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > > L:First of all I want to add something to my 'falling in love > issues'and your 'observe each dhamma, every one is good.' > So here the problem may be regret of my behaviour, not kusala one. > > Actually I Had a girlfriend which had a boyfriend (in prison), Now > she has the same boyfriend in prison, I am studying far away and > she has another one. (third one as far, I bet there will be ten):P > Sorry thats funny, the point is i said many bad words to her. > > ---------- > N: I shall quote parts of the Vipassana Letters I am reading to Lodewijk. I wrote one of these to Sarah who used to send me recordings of discussions. This is also true when you think of your former girlfriend. Many stories we are inclined to think of. ..... See every day as a test, Lukas. You may be in difficult situations. It is good to remember this. .... So this is encouraging, Lukas. Nothing can be forced. -------- > L: p.s > > Oh and I dont know if I mentioned that I am drug addicted. > --------- N: If you see the disadvantage of being enslaved this would help already. It is a kind of disease and you could seek help. You would need also medical help. But in the end it is good to know that nothing can be forced. You cannot stop on command, but seeing the benefit of the Dhamma can certainly help. Let me know how you are doing. Nina. #114235 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas are bad (especially nama) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E & Phil, I think you both expressed yourselves well - pointing to how most of what is taken for wholesome concern and compassion, for example, is actually just "junk"! As Phil points out, honestly, most the time it's "all about me" most the day. --- On Tue, 22/3/11, Robert E wrote: >>P: Yesterday I was talking about compassion. I was trying to explain that most of the emotions that we feel when we watch a news report on earthquake victims are not "compassion", technically speaking, compassion cannot be accompanied by unpleasant mental feeling, so it is rarer than we think. <....> > > But yes, if I'm honest this disaster was all about me, I'm afraid, and so far my company has weathered the storm, and things have calmed down so my beloved Tokyo (*my*) will not be haunted by paranoia about radiation. Maybe. Today it is raining and Naomi is worried about "black rain." ... R:>Good to see the admixture of things that arise around this kind of tragedy. Seeing the defilements clearly, as you say, while acknowledging moments of real compassion and having some understanding of what constitutes those, seems like a good level of understanding to have. I think when we see a little more clearly there will be a long period of time where we will mostly see "junk" that is not very appealing, such as selfish desires for security, etc. I would think it was weird if you didn't see a lot of that. That is probably why for most of us and most of the time it is easier to rationalize and suppress the knowledge of all the akusala reactions we are experiencing "within." But it's good to open the eyes and see what is really there. I think when you can see the garbage you are in a more purified state than if you are feeling just fine and not seeing much of anything. .... S: And if the "garbage" is seen as just more conditioned dhammas, not belonging to anyone, it's even more helpful - just dhammas which arise and then - gone, never to return! Metta Sarah ====== #114236 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- On Tue, 22/3/11, Robert E wrote: > a)>correct awareness of concept and what panna that may include; > > b)>correct awareness of namas and rupas and its pannas; <...> >Very helpful, thank you very much, Sarah. So there is wise reflection about the nature and status of the concept, as well as the metta that is directed towards the conventional identity of the people involved, and the sati and panna guards the mind against arising of akusala or proliferations that would lead the cittas astray. .... S: Yes, summarised again. .... >So there is panna arising with regard to concepts, but a question remains for me as to whether this panna is equal or lesser to the panna that attends direct experience of dhammas. .... S: Lesser. This is why satipatthana (in which panna understands the dhammas directly) is the *only way* and why the panna is *adhi-panna* (higher wisdom). It is the only way that the bricks of samsara can gradually be removed. ... >So, continuing to read below. >>S: b) Now, there are various realities appearing, one at a time. For example, seeing appears, hearing appears, thinking appears, visible object, sound, hardness appear. Awareness is aware of just the reality which appears and panna knows its characteristic at that moment. There may be doubt, there's bound to be thinking....all just dhammas which can be known - not belonging to anyone or anything. ... R:>So would the awareness of these dhammas be of the same type that is seeing the status of the concepts and the metta? Are all these objects arising for the same "type" of sati and panna? Are they all just equal objects arising for citta in this sequence of metta and awareness? .... S: Any awareness (sati) has the characteristic of being aware of its object. However, there are many variations and kinds of sati, depending on the citta and other cetasikas it accompanies. The awareness which accompanies the (wholesome) thinking about a concept is not the the same as the awareness which is aware of a reality. They are not *equal* in value or quality. Sati accompanies all sobhana (beautiful) cittas. Even in deep sleep, sati accompanies the bhavanga cittas which are kusala vipaka in this human life. Clearly, this "passive" sati is different from the sati which may arise now and be aware of seeing or thinking or hardness at this moment. (There is a lot of helpful information in Nina's book "Cetasikas" in the chapter on sati.) .... >>S: This is the Buddha's Teaching - the development of satipatthana. Even when there is wise reflection of one kind or another as in a), the purpose of the Teachings is to directly understand and be aware of such thinking, such metta, such attachment as just dhammas appearing now - all anatta. Are we brave enough to just "let go" and be aware of what appears now? (as K.Sujin always asks). ... R:>Okay. Just a question - what is the value of the metta that is directed towards "people" when it is done "correctly" with wise reflection and understanding of its status? Why is there kusala value, merit, etc. to projecting metta towards conventional idea of people? Why is that kusala, since it does not contain direct understanding? .... S: When there is an idea of "metta that is directed towards 'people'" and being "done 'correctly'..." I don't think it's metta at all. When there is any idea of trying to have metta, directing it, 'doing' it, it's "all about Me" (thanks Phil) again - trying to have, wishing to have, trying to do and so on. The same applies to ideas or attempts at "projecting metta". As you say, "why is that kusala?" On the other hand, when we're with people or pass people in the street, if we have a friendly, helpful attitude, considering their needs and well-being rather than our own for a change, metta just arises naturally. At such times of kindness, there's just metta. Understanding may or may not arise which knows its nature and understands the value of metta at such times. ... >R: Okay, good - just a clarification; when you say that satipatthana is the growth of such sati and panna, that is a little unclear to me. What kind of growth converts or grows or develops sati w/panna into true or full-blown satipatthana? Is it when all realities are known fully and clearly, or is it the quality of the sati and the clear knowing at that point? Are there degrees "below" satipatthana, and are there degrees of satipatthana once we are in that category? ... S: We're in danger of getting trapped by the words. If we think of the descriptions of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, pariyatti is the "pre-satipatthana" in which the panna clearly knows the truth about the realities now in theory. Like now, if we reflect on how its only visible object which is seen now, it's not yet satipatthana, it's pariyatti. Gradually, these realities are directly known and this is patipatti or the gradual growth of satipatthana. Satipatthana has to develop and develop until all stages of insight have been realised to the first stage of enlightenment. But for now, let's just develop more understanding of what appears now - sound, hardness, confusion - whatever the reality. ... >> p.s From Satipatthana Sutta and commentaries, transl by Soma; ... R:>Good to read that, and to get the general idea that all these conditions and interacting elements perform and experience the experiential event, rather than a person of any kind. By seeing the details of the process, one is able to see clearly that there is no room or need for a person in that process. In fact, a person is a generality, rather than understanding the specifics of any operation. It is just a conceptual gloss over what actually takes place. So thanks, good to read. ... S: Again, a really lovely summary and appreciation of the quote. You can be my speech-writer if I ever need one! You've just pointed out the value of the Teachings and the Abhidhamma in particular. This is the only purpose in the reading and study - understanding that a person (or any kind of atta) is "just a conceptual gloss". In truth as you say, there are just "conditions and interacting elements....no room or need for a person in that process". Thanks, Rob! Metta Sarah ====== #114237 From: "timdesmondmft" Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristics of cittas? timdesmondmft Hello. I'm new to this group and working on a writing piece with a colleague who is a neuroscientist. We are looking at the convergences and discrepancies between the Abhidhamma and the current views of neuroscience. In my study of the Abhidhamma I have not come across a definitive stance about whether more than one citta exists within a mental continuum in one moment. We know that the brain is processing many different things in parallel in a single moment, but I have not found in Buddhism whether this is discussed. I have seen some commentators say that cittas happen one after the next in succession and never at the same time, but I want to know if this is doctrine or inference. Thanks #114238 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:14 pm Subject: Alert Elevated Joy! bhikkhu5 Friends: How does the Noble live in Alert Elevated Joy? The Blessed Buddha once said: How, Nandiya , does a Noble Disciple live in alert elevated joy? Here, Nandiya , any Noble Disciple is endowed with verified conviction in the Buddha thus: Worthy, honourable & perfectly self-Enlightened is the Buddha! Not satisfied with that verified conviction in the Buddha , he makes a further effort in solitude by day and by seclusion at night! When thus enthusiastic, he is elevated by alertness! When thus elevated by alertness, then gladness is born! When he is gladdened, then a rapturous joy arises! When the mind is uplifted by joy, the body becomes all tranquil... One tranquil in body experiences a pure bliss of sweet happiness! The mind of one who is thus happy becomes condensed and concentrated... When mind is concentrated, even subtle phenomena become plain and simple. Since these subtle phenomena become plain and simple, he becomes one, who lives and dwells always rejoicing in alert elevated joy... <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. [V:398] Section 55 on Stream-Entry: Sotpattisamyutta. Thread 40: Nandiya. Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #114239 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- On Mon, 21/3/11, Ken O wrote: >>KO: It does not matter in the difference between samantha and samadhi because >>samantha is path, samadhi is concentration. >... >S: What do you mean when you say "samatha is path"? What cetasika is samatha? >What cetasika is samadhi? >... >>Samadhi is part of samantha. >... >S: what do you mean by this? >KO: samantha is another path, not as what you mean as 8NP, there are two methods, samantha and vipassana, samantha is the method, path is not the correct word to use. samandhi is just part of samantha .... S: You haven't explained what samadhi is, what samatha is. What kind of dhammas are they? ... >>K:Samadhi is not all of samantha as samantha includes virtue, sati, panna .... S: Again, according to the texts, what kind of dhamma is samatha? Is it a citta, a cetasika or a rupa? What is it specifically? >.... >>S: Again, is there samadhi now? Is there samatha now? Can there be micha samadhi now? ... >KO: can you direclty see rupa now or just nimattas or just concepts of nama and rupa. Unless you have direct experience what we see is just inferential experience of dhamma. Which text said only dhamma can only be pratice only as nama and rupa. also which text said mundane panna is the understanding of nama and rupa, ... S: Sorry, I fail to see how this answers any of the questions above. ... >K:Are you saying mindfullness, virtue are not part of samantha? Isn't listening and reading full of concepts. So what is the difference between listening and samantha. ... S: Ok, let me help you with the answers to the above. Samatha is passaddhi cetasika (calm). When the Teachings refer to the development of samatha, it is the development of passaddhi (calm) that is being referred to. At any moments of kusala, there is passaddhi or samatha already. So whenever there is virtue, generosity or bhavana, there is samatha. When it is accompanied by panna (whether the object is a concept or a reality), there may be the beginning of development of samatha bhavana or satipatthana. When there is "listening", it depends on the citta at any moment whether it is kusala, whether it is accompanied by samatha or not. Just like now - is the citta kusala and calm or is it akusala and agitated? The "right" or "wrong" practice always comes back to the present moment, the citta right now. Metta Sarah ===== #114240 From: "philip" Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:15 am Subject: Is akusala gone never to return? philofillet Hi Sarah and all > S: And if the "garbage" is seen as just more conditioned dhammas, not belonging to anyone, it's even more helpful - just dhammas which arise and then - gone, never to return! Ph: I must say I still don't quite understand this "gone, never to return" which I hear a lot in different forms. Akusala javanas accumulate, so it seems to me it can't say they are gone, and any akusala kamma patha is sure to bring its result in the form of unpleasant vipaka in this life or liftimes to come, so in a sense it will retun in the form of a related vipaka. So in the case of accumulation I don't see how it can be said to be "gone" and in the case of kamma conditioning vipaka I don't see how it can be said to "never return." I'm not saying that we should fret about akusala, I don't (although I might give the impression that I do), but saying it is "gone, never to return" feels akin to some kind of wrong view. Can we really say akusala is gone, never to return? My understanding can't go there, for my understanding tells me deeds bring results, so it can't be said they are gone. But keeping an open mind and listening, listening, listening! Metta, Phil #114241 From: "philip" Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:25 am Subject: Re: Understanding dhammas and realms (Sarah) philofillet Hi Azita (and Sarah near the end) > So in answer to yr question, yeah there are other realms where there are objects to be experienced thro the senses [or not depending on the realm] Present moment doesnt rule out other realms. Thanks Azita, your post was really clear. Honestly, not so interested in the *discussing* the topic of woeful realms because I will seek to avoid them no matter what, that's where my understanding is. And there are so many, many suttas in which the Buddha encourages and warns re destinations in the next life, so I will have to pay attention to those suttas, not yet believing that all suttas must be difficult to understood as intended by the Buddha. But I do appreciate friends who keep bringing me back to the present moment in various ways and fortunately I understand that there is no way to truly avoid woeful realms by behaving with perfect sila. Sarah, if you see this post before you write a reply to my question, never mind. The one I just asked about "is akusala really gone?" is more immediate and can be addressed in a more technical way, thanks. But if you've started writing an answer, would of course benefit from reading it. Metta, Phil #114242 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding dhammas and realms (Sarah) [Attention Nina] upasaka_howard Hi, Azita (and Phil, and especially Nina) - In a message dated 3/28/2011 12:51:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@... writes: hallo Phil, how are you? I'm thinking here that mayb yr not quite understanding present moment. What is present moment - is it not made up of citta, cetasika and rupa? Some present moments [pm] are vipaka, some kamma, others are neither. Kamma now has a future result, vipaka manifesting as seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching. Good kamma results in good vipaka, bad K in bad V. There are conditions for beings to enjoy pleasant result and unpleasant result - some of these conditions could mean a future existence in a really good/bad 'place' or anther realm. So in answer to yr question, yeah there are other realms where there are objects to be experienced thro the senses [or not depending on the realm] Present moment doesnt rule out other realms. patience, courage and good cheer, azita ====================================== Explaining mental states, Nina, you have written of the four types of consciousness: kusala cittas (wholesome cittas) akusala cittas (unwholesome cittas) vipakacittas (cittas which are result) kiriyacittas (cittas which are neither cause nor result) The first two of these categories consist of kammic cittas. I have several questions about this, if I may: 1) Cetana is a universal cetasika, and thus must occur in vipakacittas and kiriyacittas. But only the kusala and akusala cittas are kammic. What is it about the cetana in those cases that makes this so? Is it that tanha and upadana and atta-sense are involved there (in both the kusala and akusala cittas, and not only the akusala), but not in the states of the other two categories? 2) I'm particularly interested in the kiriyacittas. Are these so-called "functional" states ones in which a kammically neutral, "perfromative" willing (or chanda) occurs; i.e., a willing undefiled by craving, aversion, and attachment, and also unaccompanied by sense-of-self? 3) I presume that the vipakacittas and the kiriyacittas are the only sorts of state arising in an arahant. What of states accompanied by compassion? Into what categories do they fall? Do they not arise in arahants? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114243 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding dhammas and realms (Sarah) [Attention Nina] nilovg Hi Howard, Op 28-mrt-2011, om 14:43 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Explaining mental states, Nina, you have written of the four types of > consciousness: > > kusala cittas (wholesome cittas) > akusala cittas (unwholesome cittas) > vipakacittas (cittas which are result) > kiriyacittas (cittas which are neither cause nor result) > The first two of these categories consist of kammic cittas. I have > several questions about this, if I may: > > 1) Cetana is a universal cetasika, and thus must occur in vipakacittas > and kiriyacittas. ------ N: It coordinates the tasks of the associated dhammas, directs them, like the chief carpenter. ----- > H: But only the kusala and akusala cittas are kammic. What > is it about the cetana in those cases that makes this so? ----- N: Here cetanaa has a double task to perform. Apart from coordinating it has the function of kammic activity. It makes a double effort. It is wholesome or unwholesome volition that can motivate a deed through body, speech or mind. ---- > H: Is it that tanha > and upadana and atta-sense are involved there (in both the kusala and > akusala cittas, and not only the akusala), but not in the states of > the other > two categories? ------- N: Not just clinging or clinging with wrong view of self, also dosa, aversion and cruelty may accompany cetanaa arising with akusala citta. ------- > > H: 2) I'm particularly interested in the kiriyacittas. Are these > so-called "functional" states ones in which a kammically neutral, > "perfromative" > willing (or chanda) occurs; i.e., a willing undefiled by craving, > aversion, > and attachment, and also unaccompanied by sense-of-self? ------- N: There are kiriyacittas which are ahetuka and arise for all people within the processes of citta, performing their functions. There are also mahaa-kiriyacittas of the arahat that arise instead of mahaa- kusala cittas in non-arahats, as well as the ahetuka kiriyacitta motivating smiling in arahats. The jhaanacittas of the arahats are kiriyacittas. As to all these descriptions of cittas the Tiika to the Visuddhimagga reminds us: there is no doer. I quote from my studies of Visuddhimagga Ch XIV: < We read in the Expositor II, p. 385, about kiriyacittas: ... N: the sense-door adverting-consciousness (pacadvaaraavajjana-citta) and the mind-door adverting-consciousness which performs in a sense- door process the function of determining (votthapana), are neither kusala, akusala, being different from the javanacittas, nor are they vipaaka. They are fruitless and merely perform their function. Text: <...that which has reached the apperceptional state (javana or impulsion) is fruitless like the flower of an uprooted tree...> N: The javanacittas of the arahat are kiriyacittas which are neither cause nor result. For them there are no longer roots, hetus, which are kusala or akusala and this is compared to the roots which could cause a tree to bear fruits. Text: Nevertheless, because of procedure in accomplishing this and that function, there is the mere doing, hence [the activity] is called inoperative. The phrase neither moral [kusala] nor immoral [akusala], etc., means that, owing to the absence of the moral condition called the moral root, it is not moral; owing to the absence of the immoral condition called the immoral root, it is not immoral. Owing to the absence of moral and immoral causes of wise and unwise attention, it is said to be neither moral nor immoral. Owing to the absence of the productive condition called moral and immoral, it is not result of kamma...> ****** > H: 3) I presume that the vipakacittas and the kiriyacittas are the > only > sorts of state arising in an arahant. ------ N: This is correct. ------- H: What of states accompanied by compassion? Into what categories do they fall? Do they not arise in arahants? ------- Arahats do have great compassion, and this arises for them with mahaakiriyacitta. The Buddha had the highest degree of compassion. It is of the greatest purity. He has truly fathomed the depth of dukkha involved with the cycle of birth and death. (See Path of Purification, the Ch on the Buddha's great compassion.) Therefore he taught the Dhamma, in order to help people to become freed from the cycle. ------ Nina. #114244 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding dhammas and realms (Sarah) [Attention Nina] upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/28/2011 9:30:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, ================================= Nina, thank you for your clear and detailed reply to all my questions about the 4 categories of citta - mainly that of kiriyacitta. I much appreciate your generous response. :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114245 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristics of cittas? nilovg Dear Tim, Welcome here. Op 28-mrt-2011, om 3:48 heeft timdesmondmft het volgende geschreven: > I'm new to this group and working on a writing piece with a > colleague who is a neuroscientist. We are looking at the > convergences and discrepancies between the Abhidhamma and the > current views of neuroscience. In my study of the Abhidhamma I have > not come across a definitive stance about whether more than one > citta exists within a mental continuum in one moment. We know that > the brain is processing many different things in parallel in a > single moment, but I have not found in Buddhism whether this is > discussed. > ------- N: Take the first book of the abhidhamma where all the different cittas are separately classified. It begins with wholesome cittas classified as accompanied by happy feeling, associated with wisdom, and has as object colour, sound, smell, taste, tangible object or dhamma object. There arises only one citta at a time but it is accompanied by several cetasikas or mental factors. Citta and cetasikas experience the same object, arise at the same physical base and fall away together. It seems that we can be seeing and hearing at the same time, but this is a delusion, cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another extremely rapidly. We read in the Abhidhamma, Second book, the book of Analysis: The Book of Analysis ( 763, p. 418) explains: < Do not experience each others object means: Ear-consciousness does not experience the object of eye-consciousness; eye-consciousness does not experience the object or ear-consciousness either...> Only one citta arises at a time and it experiences its own object according to the appropriate conditions. There is no person who sees, hears or experiences other objects or who can see and hear at the same time. ---------- > T: I have seen some commentators say that cittas happen one after > the next in succession and never at the same time, but I want to > know if this is doctrine or inference. > ------- N: It is the truth also taught in the Abhidhamma. It can all be verified by attending to seeing that occurs now, hearing that occurs now. They are entirely different, experience their object through different doorways, arise at different physical bases. Through the development of satipa.t.thaana the truth can be verified. This is actually understanding or wisdom very gradually developed, stage by stage. > As to neuroscience, this is a different field. Abhidhamma has the > aim of detachment from the idea of self. We learn that there are > only conditioned dhammas, no self. There is no doer. Does > neuroscience have this aim? I think it is hard to compare the two. > Nina. > > #114246 From: "fabry" Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:41 am Subject: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro fbartolom I am happy to inform you about a new application for the world of meditation. It is customary in the Theravada Tradition of the Forest to hold periods of practice of different duration in the morning and evening of each day, each of which of a fixed lenght. So the application allows to specify once the period for each of those times so to give regularity to the practice. The begin and end of the periods are marked by the beautiful chimes of a tibetan bowl of the seven metals specifically played for the application, and by a vibration in the case sounds are not appropriate. In the case an extra period of meditation is desired, it is possible to set it without modifying the Puja values. http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ipuja-pro-comprehensive-meditation/id426659159?mt\ =8&ls=1 #114247 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristics of cittas? kenhowardau Hi Tim, I am interested in your concept of a continuum. The concept I have is of one set of five khandhas arising and falling away to be replaced by another set of five khandhas. Your concept seems to be of two or more sets of five khandhas doing a similar thing. How does that work? Can there be hearing and reacting to the object of hearing at the same time? Can there be hearing and seeing and reacting to one or both objects at the same time? It seems impossibly complicated. Ken H #114248 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:35 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Fabry, Reading the blurb about this device I notice it says: "The fixed time, coming directly from the Forest school in the Theravadin traditions, serves to give a fixed frame that day by day tends to provide a stable support for the mind in its jumping from branch to branch at the research of always newer experiences promising a lasting satisfaction." Do you understand what that means? For example, it says "the fixed time gives a fixed frame," does that actually mean something? Or is it just intended to sound as though it means something? My concern here is for the wellbeing of meditation students. All over the modern-day Buddhist world, meditation students they are being bombarded with doubletalk, which they eventually master and pass on to students of their own. The blurb goes on to talk about the mind as if it were a continuing entity, sometimes grasping one thing, other times grasping another thing. That sounds to me like an eternity teaching, or maybe an annihilation teaching. Whichever it is, it is certainly not the middle way. I apoligise for sounding unappreciative of your post. You were so obviously trying to help, and that I do appreciate. Please stay at DSG for a while and learn about a mind that lasts for only a tiny fraction of a second before it falls away and is replaced by a completely new mind (just as, when a monkey is swinging through a forest, there is only one branch grasped at a time - never two, and never none). Ken H #114249 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/28/2011 6:35:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Fabry, Reading the blurb about this device I notice it says: "The fixed time, coming directly from the Forest school in the Theravadin traditions, serves to give a fixed frame that day by day tends to provide a stable support for the mind in its jumping from branch to branch at the research of always newer experiences promising a lasting satisfaction." Do you understand what that means? For example, it says "the fixed time gives a fixed frame," does that actually mean something? Or is it just intended to sound as though it means something? My concern here is for the wellbeing of meditation students. All over the modern-day Buddhist world, meditation students they are being bombarded with doubletalk, which they eventually master and pass on to students of their own. ----------------------------------------------------- IMO, Ken, it's really best not to generalize. Though not for years, I've been to a number of retreats and heard Dhamma from a number of fine Theravadin teachers, and what I heard never sounded anything remotely like this, which I agree seems entirely incoherent and meaningless. (I haven't a clue about this "fixed time" business.) --------------------------------------------------- The blurb goes on to talk about the mind as if it were a continuing entity, sometimes grasping one thing, other times grasping another thing. ----------------------------------------------------- As far as that is concerned, the Buddha used such a simile. For example, in SN 12.61, the Buddha taught: "But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another." ---------------------------------------------------- That sounds to me like an eternity teaching, or maybe an annihilation teaching. Whichever it is, it is certainly not the middle way. ----------------------------------------------------- Nope. It was Buddhadhamma. (It's just that ol' Sakyamuni didn't know you'd be watching him so closely! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- I apoligise for sounding unappreciative of your post. You were so obviously trying to help, and that I do appreciate. Please stay at DSG for a while and learn about a mind that lasts for only a tiny fraction of a second before it falls away and is replaced by a completely new mind (just as, when a monkey is swinging through a forest, there is only one branch grasped at a time - never two, and never none). Ken H ========================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114250 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:40 pm Subject: Calmed... bhikkhu5 Friends: One becomes Calmed by Stilling all Agitation! The brahmin Mgan diya asked the Buddha about how to become calmed: Not dwelling in the past, stilled in the present, one prefers no kind of future! Without irritation, without agitation, without regrets, without worry, neither boasting, nor proud, but humble and modest, one is indeed a restrained sage... Withdrawn, not opposed to anything, not wanting anything, all unconcerned, aloof, gentle, independent, for such one there exists neither craving or fear for any kind of existence, nor craving or fear for any form of non-existence... Such calmed one is indifferent to sense pleasures, detached, not clinging to any kind of property! For him there is nothing more to take up or lay down! For whatever others might accuse him, he remains tranquil and not agitated! Neither opposed to anything, nor attracted to anything, with nothing of his own, not perturbed by what does not exist, such tranquil one is truly calmed! Sutta-Nipta 849-861 Edited excerpt. <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #114251 From: "philip" Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:13 pm Subject: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) philofillet Hi Han I am asking questions to various people who are knowledgeable on Abhidhamma to avoid overloading Nina. May I ask some to you on occasion? My first question is how citta produces (conditions?) rupa at every moment in life. Is this referring to eye sense ( for example)arising together with the citta of seeing consciousness? Or , for example, things like rupa of physical intimation conditioned by citta? And does kamma producing citta only refer to rebirth citta producing nama and rupa of the newly born being? Thank you, Han. Please answer only when you have time, no hurry. Metta, Phil #114252 From: "philip" Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:17 pm Subject: Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) philofillet Hi again Han, correction: >And does kamma producing citta only refer to rebirth citta producing nama and rupa of the newly born being? Should be "does kamma producing rupa only..." Thanks again Metta, Phil #114253 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - If I may butt in: In a message dated 3/28/2011 11:17:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi again Han, correction: >And does kamma producing citta only refer to rebirth citta producing nama and rupa of the newly born being? Should be "does kamma producing rupa only..." Thanks again Metta, Phil ===================================== With regard to the question, in general there are many cases of kamma that produces rupa. An everyday example is any intentional moving of a body part. (Motion is "the air" element, a type of rupa.) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114254 From: "philip" Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) philofillet Hi Howard, > With regard to the question, in general there are many cases of kamma > that produces rupa. An everyday example is any intentional moving of a > body part. (Motion is "the air" element, a type of rupa.) Thanks, that makes sense, kamma rather than citta being condition for movements etc. I know it is taught that kamma has a much more limited role than citta somewhere, but perhaps that is kamma as nutriment (where I think it is only rebirth citta that is included.) Metta, Phil #114255 From: philip Coristine Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:08 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) philofillet Hi again Howard A quick google search indicated that it is citta that produces movements etc. The cetana that is with the citta? And it seems that kamma is referring specifically to patisandhi citta here. Perhaps not such a vitally important distinction but good to sort out the theory... Let's see what Han and others have to say. Metta Phil #114256 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:23 pm Subject: Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) hantun1 Dear Phil, The answers to your questions are in the CMA on pages 247 to 249. I will start with kamma. Material phenomena originating from kamma (kamma-samu.t.thaana-ruupa): Kamma here refers to volition (cetanaa) in past wholesome and unwholesome states of consciousness. The twenty-five kinds of kamma that produce material phenomena are the volitions of the twelve unwholesome cittas, the eight great wholesome cittas, and the five fine-material wholesome cittas. The volitions of the wholesome immaterial-sphere cittas generate rebirth in the immaterial plane and thus cannot produce material phenomena originating from kamma. Kamma produces material phenomena at each sub-moment among the three sub-moments of consciousness (arising, presence, and dissolution) starting with the arising sub-moment of the rebirth-linking consciousness; it continues to do so throughout the course of existence up to the seventeenth mind-moment preceding the death consciousness. Eighteen kinds of material phenomena are produced by kamma; the eight inseparables in the nine groups produced by kamma; the five sensitivities; the two sex faculties; the life faculty; the heart-base; and space. Of these, nine kinds (the eight faculties and the heart-base) arise exclusively from kamma. The other nine faculties arise from kamma only when they occur in the kamma-born groups; otherwise they originate from the other causes. -------------------- [Han]: From the above you will see that although we say that kamma produces ruupas, actually it is the *cetanaa* or volition, that is associated with certain cittas, which produces ruupas. So you will have to know the cittas, and I will post the list to you off-line for your future refrence. The cittas involved are: (12) Akusala cittas (immoral consciousness) (8) Kaamaavacara-kusala or Mahaa-kusala cittas (sense sphere great moral consciousness) (5) Ruupaavacara kusala cittas (fine-material sphere moral consciousness) ----- (25) in total. The (18) ruupas produced by kamma are: (1) Pathavii = earth element (2) Aapo = water element (3) Tejo = fire element (4) Vaayo = air element (5) Cakkhu-pasaada = sensitive part of the eye (6) Sota-pasaada = sensitive part of the ear (7) Ghaana-pasaada = sensitive part of the nose (8) Jivhaa-pasaada = sensitive part of the tongue (9) Kaaya-pasada = sensitive part of the body (10)Ruupa-aramma.na = visible form (va.n.na) (11)Gandha-aramma.na = smell (gandha) (12)Rasa-aramma.na = taste (rasa) (13)Itthi-bhaava = femininity (14)Purisa-bhaava = masculinity (15)Hadaya-vatthu = heart-base (16)Jiivita-ruupa = life faculty (17)Aahaara-ruupa = nutriment (ojaa) (18)Pariccheda-ruupa = space element (aakaasa-dhaatu) Out of the above (18) ruupas, Nos (5), (6), (7), (8), (9), (13), (14), (15), (16) are produced exclusively by kamma. The rest are produced by all four causes: kamma, citta, uti, aahaara. I will take up Citta the next time. Kind regards, Han #114257 From: "timdesmondmft" Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:53 pm Subject: Re: Characteristics of cittas? timdesmondmft Thanks for your replies. What I meant by multiple cittas at one time was similar to what Nina was describing (eg. seeing and hearing at the same time). I know that the Abhidhamma says that a single citta cannot be wholesome and unwholesome. I also know that it says a citta only has its type of object. However, I still am unsure if it actually says anywhere that only one citta exists at a time. In contrast, it does say that one citta can be the object of another citta, which would seem to mean they exist simultaneously. (Specifically the Abhidhamma Sangaha lists cittas as one of the six possible objects of mind-door conscious). In the brain, there are thousands of neural networks firing in parallel, processing small bits of information all at the same time. For example, in the same plank second (the smallest unit of time) the eye neurons and ear neurons can both be activated. In fact, thousands of processes are happening relatively independently at the same time. I am wondering if the Buddha saw this and named the consciousness of each neural network a citta. I don't want to misrepresent the Abhidhamma so I would love if someone could find a quote in which it says that only one citta exists at a time. Also, if that is true, how can cittas be a possible object of another citta? Thanks so much for engaging with me about this. #114258 From: philip Coristine Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:14 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) philofillet Hello Han, Thank you so much. Since I have MA and Nina's book on rupa it wad lazy of me to ask you perhaps, or perhaps it is good to give peopke practice explaing and it is ded of merit for them to explain Dhamma too.....but in the future I should try to limit questions to areas in which the answer can't be found explicitly but rather is a matter of conjecture of a person of understanding such as yourself...so I thank you sincerely for your time. BTW, I still agree thst sila comea first, but I gave decided Dsg is not the place to discuss conventional morality. And indeed, perhaps the Buddha's teaching on conventional morality does not need to be suppirted by discussion so much, He was very clear in his teachings on such matters, we follow his advice on conventional sila or we don't and that is all there is to say about it...at DSG, anyways... Thanks again for your time. Metta, Phil #114259 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:51 pm Subject: Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) Typo hantun1 Dear Phil, There was a typing mistake. Out of the above (18) ruupas, Nos (5), (6), (7), (8), (9), (13), (14), (15), (16) are produced exclusively by kamma. The rest are produced by all four causes: kamma, citta, uti, aahaara. "uti" should be read as "utu". Han #114260 From: philip Coristine Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:25 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) Typo philofillet Hello Han Thank you for the correction. I see now there was a terrible number of typing mistakes in my message as a result of using i-phone. Sorry about that, I hope it wasn't too confusing. Metta, Phil #114261 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammas are bad (especially nama) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Rob E.: But it's good to open the eyes and see what is really there. I think when you can see the garbage you are in a more purified state than if you are feeling just fine and not seeing much of anything. > .... > S: And if the "garbage" is seen as just more conditioned dhammas, not belonging to anyone, it's even more helpful - just dhammas which arise and then - gone, never to return! Yes, that seems very helpful. That aspect of "the moment" which A. Sujin also seems to stress is very liberating - the side of anicca that means we're not "stuck" with anything, because it's already gone. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114262 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:08 am Subject: Re: Characteristics of cittas? kenhowardau Hi Tim, ----- <. . .> > T: What I meant by multiple cittas at one time was similar to what Nina was describing (eg. seeing and hearing at the same time). I know that the Abhidhamma says that a single citta cannot be wholesome and unwholesome. I also know that it says a citta only has its type of object. However, I still am unsure if it actually says anywhere that only one citta exists at a time. ----- KH: I'm sure the texts do say that, but I'm not an authority on them, so I'll leave that question for others to answer. ------------- > T: In contrast, it does say that one citta can be the object of another citta, which would seem to mean they exist simultaneously. (Specifically the Abhidhamma Sangaha lists cittas as one of the six possible objects of mind-door conscious). -------------- KH: All namas and rupas that are experienced in mind-door citta processes are ones that have already fallen away. The namas that can be experienced in this way are ones that arose in a previous moment of consciousness to experience an object of their own. The rupas that can be experienced in this way are (most commonly) ones that were the object of a previous sense-door citta process. Even though they have fallen away (about a billionth of a second earlier) they can experienced as clearly as if they were still existent. ------------- > T: In the brain, there are thousands of neural networks firing in parallel, processing small bits of information all at the same time. For example, in the same plank second (the smallest unit of time) the eye neurons and ear neurons can both be activated. In fact, thousands of processes are happening relatively independently at the same time. I am wondering if the Buddha saw this and named the consciousness of each neural network a citta. -------------- KH: Thanks for that information, I have often wondered about it. As Nina has explained, however, it really has very little to do with the Dhamma. ---------------------------- > T: I don't want to misrepresent the Abhidhamma so I would love if someone could find a quote in which it says that only one citta exists at a time. Also, if that is true, how can cittas be a possible object of another citta? ---------------------------- KH: I hope my brief explanation has set you on the right track for finding the answers. This really is a fundamentally important point for understanding Abhidhamma. In my case it has been *the* fundamentally important point. Ken H #114263 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:36 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) Typo hantun1 Dear Phil, It was not confusing. I can read your messages. Han #114264 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:38 am Subject: Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) hantun1 Dear Phil, As regards Citta, I will take the first paragraph from the CMA and I will switch on to another book, The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr Mehm Tin Mon. You may find it very difficult and complicated to note all the cittas that produce ruupas. If that is the case, please skip all of them, and just read the list of (15) cittaja-ruupas listed at the end of this post. -------------------- From the CMA: Material phenomena produced by consciousness spring up starting from the arising moment of the first bhavanga citta immediately after the rebirth consciousness. The rebirth consciousness does not produce consciousness-born matter, since at the moment of rebirth the matter that arises is born of kamma, and because this consciousness is a newcomer to the new existence. The tenfold sense consciousness lacks the power to produce matter, and the four immaterial resultants cannot do so since they arise only in the immaterial realms. According to the commentators mental phenomena are strongest at the moment of arising, material phenomena strongest at the moment of presence. Consciousness therefore produces matter only at its arising moment, when it is strongest, not at the moments of presence and dissolution. -------------------- Han: I will now switch on to the book by Dr Mehm Tin Mon. Material Phenomena arising from Citta. The cittas that produce ruupa number 75, excluding the 10 dvi-pa~nca-vi~n~naa.na cittas and 4 aruupaavacara-vipaaka cittas. [Han: To get 75 cittas, please subtract from the 89 cittas, Nos (13) to (17) and (20) to (24) and Nos (74) to (77)] All pa.tisandhi-cittas and the death-consciousness of arahats also do not produce ruupa. Starting from the first bhava"nga-citta of the lifecontinuum till death, the 75 cittas mentioned above produce cittaja-ruupa at every arising instant of the respective cittas. The ruupa produced by citta is known as cittaja-ruupa. Of the 75 cittas, the 26 appanaa-javana cittas not only produce cittaja-ruupa but also support the four bodily postures, viz., standing, sitting, lying and walking. [Han: 26 appanna-javana cittas are (5) ruupaavacara kusala cittas + (5) ruupaavacara kiriya cittas + (4) aruupaavacara kusala cittas + (4) aruupaavacara kiriya cittas + (8) lokuttara cittas.] The 32 cittas comprising mano-dvaaraavajjana, 29 kaamaavacara javanas and 2 abhi~n~naas (supernormal knowledge) produce cittaja-ruupa, support the bodily postures and also produce two vi~n~natti-ruupas for bodily actions and vocal actions. [Han: mano-dvaaraavajjana = citta Srl No. 29. 29 kaamaavacara javanas = (12) Akusala cittas (immoral consciousness) + (8) Kaamaavacara-kusala or Mahaa-kusala cittas (sense sphere great moral consciousness) + (5) Ruupaavacara kusala cittas (fine-material sphere moral consciousness) + (4) Aruupaavacara kusala cittas (immaterial sphere moral consciousness). 2 abhi~n~naas = citta Srl Nos (59) and (69).] Of the 32 cittas mentioned above, the 13 somanassa javanas also produce smiles and laughters whereas the 2 domanassa javanas, i.e., the 2 dosa-muula cittas, produce moaning and weeping. [Han: 13 somanassa javanas = citta Srl Nos (1) to (4); (30) to (34); (55) to 58). 2 domanassa javanas = citta Srl Nos (9) and (10).] Hasituppaada and 4 somanassa-mahaa-kiriya cittas produce smiles in Buddhas and arahats. [Han: citta Srl Nos (30), and (47) to (50).] Two lobha-muula-di.t.thigata-vipayutta-somanassa cittas and 4 somanassa-mahaa-kusala cittas produce smiles and laughters in sekha-persons i.e., sotaapannas, sakadaagaamis and anaagaamis. [Han: citta Srl Nos (3) and (4); and (31) to (34).] Four lobha-muula-somanassa cittas and 4 somanassa-mahaa-kusala cittas produce smiles and laughters in puthujjanas (worldlings). [Han: citta Srl Nos (1) to (4); and (31) to (34).] Three mano-dhaatus, 11 tadaalamba.nas and 5 ruupaavacara vipaaka cittas (totaling 19) produce only ordinary cittaja-ruupas. [Han: three mano-dhaatu = citta Srl Nos (28) (18) (25) 11 tadaalamba.nas = citta Srl Nos (19), (26), (27), and (39) to (46) 5 ruupaavacara vipaaka cittas = citta Srl Nos (60) to (64)] --------------------- (15) cittaja-ruupas: (1) Pathavii = earth element (2) Aapo = water element (3) Tejo = fire element (4) Vaayo = air element (5) Ruupa-aramma.na = visible form (va.n.na) (6) Sadda-aramma.na = sound (sadda) (7) Gandha-aramma.na = smell (gandha) (8) Rasa-aramma.na = taste (rasa) (9) Aahaara-ruupa = nutriment (ojaa) (10) Pariccheda-ruupa = space element (aakaasa-dhaatu) (11) Kaaya-vi~n~natti = bodily intimation (12) Vacii-vi~n~natti = vocal intimation (13) Rupassa-lahutaa = physical lightness or buoyancy (14) Rupassa-mudutaa = physical elasticity or malleability (15) Rupassa-kamma~n~nataa = physical adaptability Out of the above (15) ruupas, Nos (11) and (12) are produced exclusively by citta. No (6) is produced by citta and utu. Nos. (13), (14) and (15) are produced by citta, utu, and aahaara. The rest are produced by all four causes. --------------------- Kind regards, Han #114265 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:53 am Subject: Re: Characteristics of cittas? sarahprocter... Dear Tim, Welcome to DSG and thx for your interesting qus! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "timdesmondmft" wrote: > What I meant by multiple cittas at one time was similar to what Nina was describing (eg. seeing and hearing at the same time). I know that the Abhidhamma says that a single citta cannot be wholesome and unwholesome. I also know that it says a citta only has its type of object. However, I still am unsure if it actually says anywhere that only one citta exists at a time. .... S: Yes, throughout. Here's a quote from the Vism: Vism, V111, 39: "As to the shortness of the moment: in the ultimate sense the life moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls (that is, touches the ground) only on one point of (the circumference of) its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according as it is said: 'In a past conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a future conscious moment not he did live, not he does live, he will live. In the present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will live. " 'Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow' " (Nd.1,42) "This is how death should be recollected as to the shortness of the moment." ... > In contrast, it does say that one citta can be the object of another citta, which would seem to mean they exist simultaneously. (Specifically the Abhidhamma Sangaha lists cittas as one of the six possible objects of mind-door conscious). .... S: At the moment when citta is the object of another citta, the citta which is the object is not arising at that moment - it has just fallen away. For example, there may be a citta rooted in lobha (attachment) arising and falling away now. Immediately afterwards (in another mind-door process) the characteristic of that citta can be the object of other cittas (during a javana process). It is like a photocopy or sign of the citta which has fallen away. Still, only one citta arising at a time. .... > > In the brain, there are thousands of neural networks firing in parallel, processing small bits of information all at the same time. For example, in the same plank second (the smallest unit of time) the eye neurons and ear neurons can both be activated. In fact, thousands of processes are happening relatively independently at the same time. I am wondering if the Buddha saw this and named the consciousness of each neural network a citta. .... S: The Buddha understood that in reality, there are only cittas (moments of consciousness), cetasikas (accompanying mental factors) and rupas (physical phenomena). Anything else at this moment is a concept, including ideas of neural networks. .... > I don't want to misrepresent the Abhidhamma so I would love if someone could find a quote in which it says that only one citta exists at a time. Also, if that is true, how can cittas be a possible object of another citta? .... S: For more quotes, you may like to look in "Useful Posts" in the files, under "Momentary", "Speed" and "Cittas". You mentioned that you have access to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, so I'm sure it also confirms this point. As for how it's possible, please ask me more if the above is not clear. Also, see under "navattabba" and "nimitta" in "Useful Posts". ... > > Thanks so much for engaging with me about this. ... S: Thank you for engaging with us! Pls let us know where you live and anything else you care to share. Metta Sarah p.s New members - pls remember to sign off with your name and make it clear who you are addressing, even if "All". TIA! ========================= #114266 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Variegated citta sarahprocter... Hi Phil (*& Pt), --- On Tue, 22/3/11, philip wrote: > Does variegated citta (vicitta) refer to the content of what we think about, which seems to be what is said on p52-53 of SPD or does it refer to all the different permutations of cittas according to accompanying cetasikas? ... S: I'd like to add my understanding. Each moment of seeing consciousness arising in a day, even those arising now, are all different, all "variegated", arising and falling away, never to arise again. This is because of all the different conditions which have caused these moments of seeing to arise, such as the past kamma, the visible object (which has already arisen when seeing arises), the eye-sense (which again is arising and falling away and has already arisen when seeing arises), the accompanying cetasikas such as phassa (contact), sanna (perception) and manasikara (attention). This is what is meant by "ayatana", the meeting of specific dhammas in such a way that the seeing now could not be any other seeing - like the balance of dhammas on a needle-point. The same applies to any other kind of citta, such as the cittas which are involved in thinking about objects. Each citta experiences its object according to the way it has been accumulated and the accompanying cetasikas which are never the same - that's why all conditioned dhammas are khandhas, each one different from any other one. It is because of the differences in the cittas and cetasikas that there is thinking about different ideas, different images all day long and even during our dreams. Metta Sarah *>Thanks, for now while I am on i-phone only there may be only questions from me and no ability to respond to posts, can't figure out yet how to cut and paste. and trim etc. A blessing in disguise, I'd say,in my case. A period for asking and listening. ... S: Never a need to respond....just depends on conditions, of course! Pt may be able to give some advice on the cut and paste problem. If it continues, we'll help you by putting your posts under moderation and doing the trimming as we do for others. ====== #114267 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:24 am Subject: To Phil about siila hantun1 Dear Phil, [Phil]: BTW, I still agree that siila comes first, but I have decided DSG is not the place to discuss conventional morality. And indeed, perhaps the Buddha's teaching on conventional morality does not need to be supported by discussion so much, He was very clear in his teachings on such matters, we follow his advice on conventional siila or we don't and that is all there is to say about it...at DSG, anyways... ---------- [Han]: I have slightly modified my stance. Now, I would say that a beginner (puthujjana) should develop *mundane siila* and *mundane right view*, simultaneously, from the very beginning, one supporting the other. What is mundane siila? There can be many types of mundane siila, but I would prefer to take the observance of the five precepts. In Burma, every religious ceremony starts with the observance of the five precepts. But the five precepts observed by the worldling are still shaky and vulnerable. The adhi siila, observed by the ariyans, on the other hand, is unshakeable. For example, a Sotaapanna will never break the five precepts. He will even sacrifice his own life rather than kill another person. What is mundane right view? Here, I will take the definition from The Noble Eightfold Path by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi: "Mundane right view involves a correct grasp of the law of kamma, the moral efficacy of action. Its literal name is "right view of the ownership of action" (kammassakataa sammaadi.t.thi), and it finds its standard formulation in the statement: "Beings are the owners of their actions, the heirs of their actions; they spring from their actions, are bound to their actions, and are supported by their actions. Whatever deeds they do, good or bad, of those they shall be heirs." The supramundane right view, on the other hand, is the understanding of the Four Noble Truths. It is this right view that figures as the first factor of the Noble Eightfold Path in the proper sense: as the noble right view. Thus the Buddha defines the path factor of right view expressly in terms of the four truths: "What now is right view? It is understanding of suffering (dukkha), understanding of the origin of suffering, understanding of the cessation of suffering, understanding of the way leading to the cessation to suffering." -------------------- Further elaboration on mundane right view: Apart from the main essence of mundane right view mentioned above, perhaps, a few prelimary knowledge may be useful. When I started my studies of the Buddha's teachings, a monk asked me what is akusala and what is kusala? I thought I knew but I could not answer. Then the monk said: "Akusala is mentally unhealthy, morally blameworthy, and productive of painful results to oneself and to others; and kusala is mentally healthy, morally blameless, and productive of pleasant results to oneself and to others." Very simple! But I do not think many people can answer in that short and precise way. Then the monk asked me what are the akusala deeds and what are the kusala deeds? Again, I thought I knew but I could not answer. Then the monk explained the Ten Akusala Kamma-pathas and the Ten Kusala Kamma-pathas and the Ten Pu~n~na-kiriya Vatthus. That sort of simple knowledge will be useful for the beginner to keep the five precepts *meaningfully*. ------------------ Another point mentioned by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi is that *compassion* is one of the pillars for siila. The word compassion may be interpreted in many ways. But in the context of keeping the five precepts, I would like to equate it with *putting oneself in someone else's place*. For example, if I want to steal someone else's money, I will put myself in his place and ask myself how would I feel if my money is stolen. [I cannot think of the most appropriate English word for such a feeling. Maybe, you will have the appropriate word.] If a person avoids killing, stealing, etc., by putting himself in another man's place, rather than being afraid of what bad results may happen to him for the act, I think it will even be better. These are the sort of *simple knowledge* I am looking for, for the *beginner* to develop together with the keeping of the five precepts from the very beginning. Kind regards, Han #114268 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta, no contro vs meditation . Why is there a problem? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Wed, 23/3/11, truth_aerator wrote: >>S:Would you agree that the Buddha taught 4 Noble Truths? Can Nibbana >ever be realised without a direct understanding of the other Noble >Truths? A:>But the crucial question is about the nature of this understanding. Is understanding merely involves the right theoretical knowledge, or does it means having such a vision that it translates into mental and physical action?....S: I said "direct understanding...". Do you understand a "direct understanding" of the Noble Truths to "merely involve the right theoretical knowledge"? Let's begin by talking about the First Noble Truth, the Truth of Dukkha. What would the "direct understanding" be, would you say? What do you mean by the "mental and physical action" with relation to the "direct understanding" of the Truths at this very moment?.... >How can one person theoretically know very little, but be Awakened - vs someone who knows 1000x as much and isn't on the path? Clearly it is not the amount of information that matters.......S: This is the same question you've asked many times, including recently:-) What does it mean to be "on the path" at this very moment? What is right theoretical understanding, pariyatti, at this moment? How does direct understanding, patipatti develop now?.... >BTW, very often in the suttas the realization of 4NT comes after 4 Jhanas.... ....S: Yes, and often after moments of seeing, hearing and wise reflection on the Teachings. The Buddha taught the path of non-attachment - non-attachment to dhammas which are conditioned and fall away instantly. Such dhammas include the jhanas. Metta Sarah======= #114269 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 3/29/2011 12:25:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Howard, > With regard to the question, in general there are many cases of kamma > that produces rupa. An everyday example is any intentional moving of a > body part. (Motion is "the air" element, a type of rupa.) Thanks, that makes sense, kamma rather than citta being condition for movements etc. I know it is taught that kamma has a much more limited role than citta somewhere, but perhaps that is kamma as nutriment (where I think it is only rebirth citta that is included.) ------------------------------------------------------ Kamma is cetana (i.e., cetana in the "willing" sense), and it never is in operation except as concomitant to consciousness. So, in the case of a willed movement of a body part, the impulse-to-move is directly responsible, but it, in turn, is dependent on the consciousness it accompanies, whether full consciousness or very low-level consciousness. So, indirectly, consciousness is also a condition in that case. Of course, there also can be unwilled (self-)movement of a body part such as a biologically engendered twitch or spasm. ----------------------------------------------------- Metta, Phil ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114270 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Characteristics of cittas? nilovg Dear Tim, Op 29-mrt-2011, om 6:53 heeft timdesmondmft het volgende geschreven: > I know that the Abhidhamma says that a single citta cannot be > wholesome and unwholesome. I also know that it says a citta only > has its type of object. However, I still am unsure if it actually > says anywhere that only one citta exists at a time. ------ N: I gave you a quote from the Book of Analysis of the Abhidhamma, about cittas such as seeing and hearing that each experience their own object and 'do not know each other'. Perhaps this is not clear to you yet. It will help to consider more the nature of citta. Citta is a mental phenomenon that experiences an object. There is no citta that does not experience an object. Seeing experiences visible object that impinges on the eyesense. Visible object and eyesense are ruupas that condition seeing. Evenso sound and earsense are ruupas that condition hearing. Each citta is conditioned by different factors. When you consider this it may become clearer that it would be impossible that more than one citta could arise at a time. Nowhere in the Abhidhamma you will find that more than one citta arises at a time. Cittas succeed one another and the preceding citta conditions the following one by contiguity condition, anantara paccaya (seventh book of the Abhidhamma, the Patthaana). The falling away of the preceding citta is the condition for the arising of the succeeding one. Our life is a long series of cittas succeeding one another. I think this makes it very clear that only one citta arises at a time. The last citta of this life is the dying-consciousness, cuti-citta, and this is immediately succeeded by the rebirth- consciousnes sof the next life. Thus, all accumulated inclinations of past lives continue on the the next life. You may find all this in contrast with science, but do not forget that science is an entirely different subject. Science will not help you to understand the Abhidhamma. ------ Nina. #114271 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 3/29/2011 1:16:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi again Howard A quick google search indicated that it is citta that produces movements etc. The cetana that is with the citta? And it seems that kamma is referring specifically to patisandhi citta here. ------------------------------------------------- I'm afraid I came in on the thread late, and I missed the original context that you refer to as "here". It might well be specific and refer to rebirth consciousness. (My apologies for my misunderstanding of what the issue was.) Of course, rebirth itself is kamma-caused, is it not? ---------------------------------------------------- Perhaps not such a vitally important distinction but good to sort out the theory... Let's see what Han and others have to say. Metta Phil ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114272 From: "Jessica" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya Sutta jessicamui Dear Patrick and Sara, Thank you very much for the reply. I was in Taiwan helping out a 1-month retreat. Just come back to HK. With respect to the Bahiya Sutta, I read (with the help from a friend) the myanmar translation with commentary, as well as a sayadaw to explain the sutta from his understanding. I must say that I still need to contemplate it further to fully understand it. Patrick, I like this sutta very much too. I can understand the anatta nature of things and reflect the teaching in this sutta in my daily life. The another inspiration from this sutta is that despite there are people who doesn't practice the "right way", or have the right view right now, but their lobha, dosa and moha can be a lot thinner than some of us "Buddhist" such that one of them(Bahiya) achieve Arahantship so quickly. After reading this sutta, I change my attitude towards people who practice other "religions". One day, they may be just like Bahiya. Sara, I haven't had a chance to catch up the postings on the forum. I hope that you have a great meeting with Sujin in Thailand. With Much Metta, Jessica. #114273 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:24 pm Subject: what is "direct" understanding? truth_aerator Hello Sarah, all, >S:I said "direct understanding...". Do you understand a "direct >understanding" of the Noble Truths to "merely involve the right >theoretical knowledge"? Please clarify what you mean by "direct". Is it strong conviction in the truth of proposition, is it some clairvoyant vision or something else? >S: This is the same question you've asked many times, including >recently:-) What does it mean to be "on the path" at this very >moment? What is right theoretical understanding, pariyatti, at this >moment? How does direct understanding, patipatti develop now?.... Unfortunately, as it comes to patipatti - it is not that good. Physical seclusion in proper place is an important component according to the Buddha (MN17) and commentaries such as VsM. Not every place is an ideal place. That is why the suttas and commentaries often talk about going into physical seclusion and meditating there. The VsM is clear about it, and in certain paragraphs talks about physical impediments. If one doesn't progress in certain place, then one should leave that place and go to the place where one will progress - even if in that place it will be difficult to get enough requisites... http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/017-vanapattha\ -sutta-e1.html ... With metta, Alex #114274 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:37 pm Subject: Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Any awareness (sati) has the characteristic of being aware of its object. However, there are many variations and kinds of sati, depending on the citta and other cetasikas it accompanies. The awareness which accompanies the (wholesome) thinking about a concept is not the the same as the awareness which is aware of a reality. They are not *equal* in value or quality. Sati accompanies all sobhana (beautiful) cittas. Even in deep sleep, sati accompanies the bhavanga cittas which are kusala vipaka in this human life. Clearly, this "passive" sati is different from the sati which may arise now and be aware of seeing or thinking or hardness at this moment. > > (There is a lot of helpful information in Nina's book "Cetasikas" in the chapter on sati.) Okay, thank you very much. That really covers the general point about types of sati. That gives me a framework for thinking about it, and clarifies a lot about my 'favorite' cetasika [it is a cetasika isn't it?] > >>S: This is the Buddha's Teaching - the development of satipatthana. Even when there is wise reflection of one kind or another as in a), the purpose of the Teachings is to directly understand and be aware of such thinking, such metta, such attachment as just dhammas appearing now - all anatta. Are we brave enough to just "let go" and be aware of what appears now? (as K.Sujin always asks). > ... > R:>Okay. Just a question - what is the value of the metta that is directed towards "people" when it is done "correctly" with wise reflection and understanding of its status? Why is there kusala value, merit, etc. to projecting metta towards conventional idea of people? Why is that kusala, since it does not contain direct understanding? > .... > S: When there is an idea of "metta that is directed towards 'people'" and being "done 'correctly'..." I don't think it's metta at all. When there is any idea of trying to have metta, directing it, 'doing' it, it's "all about Me" (thanks Phil) again - trying to have, wishing to have, trying to do and so on. The same applies to ideas or attempts at "projecting metta". As you say, "why is that kusala?" > > On the other hand, when we're with people or pass people in the street, if we have a friendly, helpful attitude, considering their needs and well-being rather than our own for a change, metta just arises naturally. At such times of kindness, there's just metta. Understanding may or may not arise which knows its nature and understands the value of metta at such times. Well, so far as I know, the "projection of metta" and "metta meditation" are prescribed by the Buddha, so I don't see them as inherently self-based, but that is just the usual disagreement. I don't think that metta directed towards other beings is "all about me" at all, just because I happen to be engaged in the practice. Leaving that aside, my question is, why is any quality directed towards the concept of a "person" kusala or meritorious? I guess you have already said that wholesome qualities can arise in relation to a concept, but I'm just not quite sure why that is, since it is based in delusion. > >R: Okay, good - just a clarification; when you say that satipatthana is the growth of such sati and panna, that is a little unclear to me. What kind of growth converts or grows or develops sati w/panna into true or full-blown satipatthana? Is it when all realities are known fully and clearly, or is it the quality of the sati and the clear knowing at that point? Are there degrees "below" satipatthana, and are there degrees of satipatthana once we are in that category? > ... > S: We're in danger of getting trapped by the words. If we think of the descriptions of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, pariyatti is the "pre-satipatthana" in which the panna clearly knows the truth about the realities now in theory. Like now, if we reflect on how its only visible object which is seen now, it's not yet satipatthana, it's pariyatti. Gradually, these realities are directly known and this is patipatti or the gradual growth of satipatthana. Satipatthana has to develop and develop until all stages of insight have been realised to the first stage of enlightenment. Does the nature of satipatthana change with each stage of insight? Is satipatthana different in different stages? > But for now, let's just develop more understanding of what appears now - sound, hardness, confusion - whatever the reality. > ... > > >> p.s From Satipatthana Sutta and commentaries, transl by Soma; > ... > > R:>Good to read that, and to get the general idea that all these conditions and interacting elements perform and experience the experiential event, rather than a person of any kind. By seeing the details of the process, one is able to see clearly that there is no room or need for a person in that process. In fact, a person is a generality, rather than understanding the specifics of any operation. It is just a conceptual gloss over what actually takes place. So thanks, good to read. > ... > S: Again, a really lovely summary and appreciation of the quote. You can be my speech-writer if I ever need one! Ha ha, I'll be happy to have that job! > You've just pointed out the value of the Teachings and the Abhidhamma in particular. This is the only purpose in the reading and study - understanding that a person (or any kind of atta) is "just a conceptual gloss". In truth as you say, there are just "conditions and interacting elements....no room or need for a person in that process". > > Thanks, Rob! Thank you, Sarah. I was a little stuck for a while on the idea that understanding various processes would aid in detachment from self-concept; but I can see that in many cases in order to be fully convinced that there is no self or doer pulling the strings when things take place, one needs to thoroughly understand how the process works, and then can see that it is just process from beginning to end. I guess one who had enough faith, who would just hear an example and get the idea and then fully resolve that there was no self involved, might not need all the details and all the examples to bring the point home. That might explain some of the sudden awakenings that are reported in the suttas. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #114275 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Ken H. and Howard. If you don't mind, I will combine efforts and make a comment or two on what Howard wrote, as well as some of the original points by Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 3/28/2011 6:35:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > Hi Fabry, > > Reading the blurb about this device I notice it says: > > "The fixed time, coming directly from the Forest school in the Theravadin > traditions, serves to give a fixed frame that day by day tends to provide a > stable support for the mind in its jumping from branch to branch at the > research of always newer experiences promising a lasting satisfaction." > > Do you understand what that means? For example, it says "the fixed time > gives a fixed frame," does that actually mean something? Or is it just > intended to sound as though it means something? I'll get back to this in a moment. > My concern here is for the wellbeing of meditation students. All over the > modern-day Buddhist world, meditation students they are being bombarded > with doubletalk, which they eventually master and pass on to students of their > own. I don't think you should be too concerned, Ken. For one thing, even with your amazingly superior intellect it is still true that something may mean something even if you don't understand it. From time to time you might wish to inquire what something means before you decide it is doubletalk. The "Ken H." rule for what is truth and what is nonsense would make a lot of the Dhamma difficult to understand. I can just imagine myself telling a bunch of medical students that there is no such thing as a superior vena cava and that it is just nonsense because I happen to have never studied it and don't know the terminology. > ----------------------------------------------------- > IMO, Ken, it's really best not to generalize. Though not for years, > I've been to a number of retreats and heard Dhamma from a number of fine > Theravadin teachers, and what I heard never sounded anything remotely like > this, which I agree seems entirely incoherent and meaningless. (I haven't a > clue about this "fixed time" business.) > --------------------------------------------------- This doesn't seem that confusing to me, or that strange. It seems to just be saying that one should practice at the same time each day to make a stable habit of organizing the mind, or something to that effect. I have not gone back to read the original, so I could be off, but I will check back. Ken H. would object to this anyway - doing anything at a fixed time other than surfing or eating meals; but I think that we who believe it is possible to "do" things don't always mind having a schedule. > The blurb goes on to talk about the mind as if it were a continuing > entity, sometimes grasping one thing, other times grasping another thing. > ----------------------------------------------------- > As far as that is concerned, the Buddha used such a simile. For > example, in SN 12.61, the Buddha taught: "But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' > or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as > another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a > branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs > another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, > what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night > arises as one thing and ceases as another." > ---------------------------------------------------- > > That sounds to me like an eternity teaching, or maybe an annihilation > teaching. Whichever it is, it is certainly not the middle way. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Nope. It was Buddhadhamma. (It's just that ol' Sakyamuni didn't know > you'd be watching him so closely! ;-)) > ---------------------------------------------------- I agree with you Howard. The Buddha often talked about the "mind" as if it were a continuing entity, then specified what actually took place in more detail, as he does with the famous monkey simile. However, I agree that Buddha could have learned a lot from Ken H. if he had been on the scene. It's a shame that only the likes of Ananda and Sariputra were around at the time. ;-) > I apologize for sounding unappreciative of your post. You were so > obviously trying to help, and that I do appreciate. Well, not everyone here at DSG agrees with Ken H.'s point of view. There are those who are in favor of meditation and understand and appreciate such metaphors of mind, and there are those who have a strict understanding of consciousness, or citta, arising in single unitary moments that do not last and are not combined in any way. Luckily we can allow for those of both sorts of view to have their say and engage in healthy debate. > Please stay at DSG for a while and learn about a mind that lasts for only > a tiny fraction of a second before it falls away and is replaced by a > completely new mind (just as, when a monkey is swinging through a forest, there > is only one branch grasped at a time - never two, and never none). I think that the monkey simile has already made the very point that you are trying to make, Ken H. Buddha starts by talking about the "mind" as a general proposition. Then he talks about its nature as a "monkey who grasps one branch and then lets go to grab another branch." This is in fact a fantastic metaphor for the arising and falling away of individual cittas. It even provides a sense of the development and accumulation of conditions, since the monkey lets go of one branch only as he grasps the next. There is a moment where the monkey's left hand is on branch A and his right hand is on branch B. It must be at that moment that branch A's accumulated conditions are transmitted, via the monkey, to branch B. Another mystery solved! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #114276 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:11 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Ken H., and Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > > Hi Fabry, > > Reading the blurb about this device I notice it says: > > "The fixed time, coming directly from the Forest school in the Theravadin traditions, serves to give a fixed frame that day by day tends to provide a stable support for the mind in its jumping from branch to branch at the research of always newer experiences promising a lasting satisfaction." > > Do you understand what that means? For example, it says "the fixed time gives a fixed frame," does that actually mean something? Or is it just intended to sound as though it means something? > > My concern here is for the wellbeing of meditation students. All over the modern-day Buddhist world, meditation students they are being bombarded with doubletalk, which they eventually master and pass on to students of their own. I went back and read the original post and this application and the stable time frame being discussed is nothing more complicated than a timer application. In order to have a regular time period for meditation the application plays chimes at the beginning and end of the period so you know when the practice period begins and ends. It's no different than timing yourself 45 minutes to practice the piano or anything else, except that this program allows you to pre-set more than one time period. Very handy for many activities. However, it is dependent on having more than one moment in the universe, so I guess it won't work for you, Ken H. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #114277 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:48 pm Subject: Re: Problems again szmicio Hi Nina, Actually Now I am living on my own in far end of Poland. Tomorrow I go to sitting meditation(detox) and I will stay for 3 hour at my family place. I called the girl I abused and she promised me to meet me for few minutes. I hope I apology her. Then I run to 10 day sitting. I hope I get back to health an d stop smoking and doing not proper things. I hope I will see Dhamma again. But who knows no plans, everything changes, no choosing only conditions. Best wishes Lukas P.s That will be hard to sit 10 hours per day, especially when I wonnt have access to Dhamma books or Dhamma recordings > #114278 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:01 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> > H: IMO, Ken, it's really best not to generalize. Though not for years, I've been to a number of retreats and heard Dhamma from a number of fine Theravadin teachers, and what I heard never sounded anything remotely like this, which I agree seems entirely incoherent and meaningless. (I haven't a clue about this "fixed time" business.) ---- KH: I know what you mean about generalising, but in my opinion it is other people, not me, who are doing the generalising. People talk as if vipassana was just another religion, or just another self-help program. It isn't! Vipassana is in a category all of its own, entirely different from anything else. -------------- >> KH: The blurb goes on to talk about the mind as if it were a continuing entity, sometimes grasping one thing, other times grasping another thing. > H: As far as that is concerned, the Buddha used such a simile. For example, in SN 12.61, the Buddha taught: "But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another." --------------- KH: Yes, but how do you understand the expression "arises as one thing and ceases as another"? I'm no expert on the texts, but doesn't that mean there is no persisting consciousness? Doesn't it mean that the consciousness at the beginning of the day (or the beginning of any period of time) is one dhamma, and the consciousness at the end of the day is another dhamma? As I understand the monkey simile, consciousness is represented by the momentarily grabbed branch, not by the (permanent) monkey. ------------------------- <. . .> > > KH: That sounds to me like an eternity teaching, or maybe an annihilation teaching. Whichever it is, it is certainly not the middle way. > H: Nope. It was Buddhadhamma. (It's just that ol' Sakyamuni didn't know you'd be watching him so closely! ;-)) ------------------------- KH: :-) To quote A Sujin: "The Buddha taught satipatthana, and every word of his teaching is to be understood in terms of satipatthana." Ken H #114279 From: philip Coristine Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:23 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Problems again philofillet Hi Lukas I'n glad to hear you are going to be doing meditationn for de-tox, I was going to write you to recommend a kind of tranquility (samattha) meditation I do which involves ceating pleasant feeling using the breath, or I would say visualizing using the breath as concept maybe. I don't think it is very pure bhavana but I don't care. I drank alcohol every day for 25 years and did a lot of drugs, mostly marijuana and hash, but also mushrooms, acid, coke and this meditation creates better mental. and physical feeling than alcohol so it was so easy to finally give it up completely, the feeling from a glass of beer is really unpleasant now compared to the meditation. (marijuana is still really attractive to me but fortunately the laws against it are too strong in Japan.) I am going to write you off-list to tell you more about the meditation. It trains the mind that it diesn't need to feed on pleasures like alcohol, so wherher it is proper bhavana or not is irrelevant to me. Good luck, I am cheering for you. Metta, Phil p.s I can't write long explanation e-mail today because I am using i-phone. #114280 From: "philip" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:53 pm Subject: Re: To Phil about siila philofillet Dear Han Thank you for your excellent thoughts on sila, that monk asked excellent questions and I am glad to say I woyld have been able to answer. We know what constitutes the ten akusala kamma patha and also there are the precepts, it is no mystery. As for mundane and supramundane right view, I am interested especially on mundane right view but there are times I doubt about kamma, the results of deeds etc. But fortunately I never doubt that there was a good reason the Buddha gave us precepts, so I stick to them faithfully. I am sorry to say there are many people who are comfortable breaking precepts such as drinking alcohol on a regular basis, perhaps justifying it bevause it is not akusala kamma patha, or because they think their understanding of the present moment is more important than a silly little warning against alcohol, what's wrong with one beer, etc. They have no respect for the Buddha every time they drink, they might as well spit their beer in his face. We keep the precepts, no matter what. We do our very best to avoid the ten akusala kamma patha. That's all there is to it and I hope that is the last I will write about mundane sila here at DSG. It is the most important topic for householders but I no longer feel there is value in trying to persuade people about that, not here. Metta, Phil p.s I hope there will not be many typing errors. p.p.s. thank you sarah and nina for your further answers to my questions, much appreciated. > #114281 From: "philip" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:07 pm Subject: re: alcohol philofillet Hi Lukas and all I just wrote strong words in a msg to Han about those who break alcohol precept but I was talking about people who casually have a drink a day because they are too lazy and self-confident to give it up, that it is like they spit in the Buddha's face. I wasn't writing about people who are fighting heavy addiction. They don't spit in the Buddha's face when they drink, they are fighting a monster courageously. And I have faith that Dhamma will help lead them to victory. Metta, Phil #114282 From: "philip" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:17 pm Subject: Awareness of nama (Robert K) philofillet Hi Robert If you don't mind I would like to ask you questions on occasion to tap your understanding. If you don't want to answer them that's cool, but I will ask because I think you gave goid understanding of the natural development of satipatthana and you express yourself well. I read this in SPD: "The understanding acquired from study can be an accumulated condition or sankharakhanda for the arising of sati of satipatthana. Sati can be aware of the characteristic of citta that is nama, the element that experiences an object at this very moment. In this way panna can develop and eliminate the wrong view that takes all realities for self." Of course there can be awarenwss of any reality that appears but itseems from my listening that A Sujin often (as above) stresses awareness of nama, the element that knows. Am I reading too much into that? If so, just tell me, but if you want to share any thoughts on awareness of nama vs. awareness of rupa I would be happy to read them. Metta, Phil #114283 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Ken) - In a message dated 3/29/2011 5:05:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Ken H. and Howard. If you don't mind, I will combine efforts and make a comment or two on what Howard wrote, as well as some of the original points by Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 3/28/2011 6:35:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > Hi Fabry, > > Reading the blurb about this device I notice it says: > > "The fixed time, coming directly from the Forest school in the Theravadin > traditions, serves to give a fixed frame that day by day tends to provide a > stable support for the mind in its jumping from branch to branch at the > research of always newer experiences promising a lasting satisfaction." > > Do you understand what that means? For example, it says "the fixed time > gives a fixed frame," does that actually mean something? Or is it just > intended to sound as though it means something? I'll get back to this in a moment. > My concern here is for the wellbeing of meditation students. All over the > modern-day Buddhist world, meditation students they are being bombarded > with doubletalk, which they eventually master and pass on to students of their > own. I don't think you should be too concerned, Ken. For one thing, even with your amazingly superior intellect it is still true that something may mean something even if you don't understand it. From time to time you might wish to inquire what something means before you decide it is doubletalk. The "Ken H." rule for what is truth and what is nonsense would make a lot of the Dhamma difficult to understand. I can just imagine myself telling a bunch of medical students that there is no such thing as a superior vena cava and that it is just nonsense because I happen to have never studied it and don't know the terminology. > ----------------------------------------------------- > IMO, Ken, it's really best not to generalize. Though not for years, > I've been to a number of retreats and heard Dhamma from a number of fine > Theravadin teachers, and what I heard never sounded anything remotely like > this, which I agree seems entirely incoherent and meaningless. (I haven't a > clue about this "fixed time" business.) > --------------------------------------------------- This doesn't seem that confusing to me, or that strange. It seems to just be saying that one should practice at the same time each day to make a stable habit of organizing the mind, or something to that effect. I have not gone back to read the original, so I could be off, but I will check back. ------------------------------------------------------- Ahh. It hadn't occurred to me that this was what was meant by "fixed time". If that is so, then I take back saying that it is incoherent and meaningless. It was simply unclear, at least to me. I also don't happen to agree with it if the meaning is an endorsement of a lockstep fixed time, though I do think that reasonable regularity of practice is good. ---------------------------------------------------- Ken H. would object to this anyway - doing anything at a fixed time other than surfing or eating meals; but I think that we who believe it is possible to "do" things don't always mind having a schedule. ---------------------------------------------------- So long as we don't get obsessive about it. -------------------------------------------------- > The blurb goes on to talk about the mind as if it were a continuing > entity, sometimes grasping one thing, other times grasping another thing. > ----------------------------------------------------- > As far as that is concerned, the Buddha used such a simile. For > example, in SN 12.61, the Buddha taught: "But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' > or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as > another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a > branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs > another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, > what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night > arises as one thing and ceases as another." > ---------------------------------------------------- > > That sounds to me like an eternity teaching, or maybe an annihilation > teaching. Whichever it is, it is certainly not the middle way. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Nope. It was Buddhadhamma. (It's just that ol' Sakyamuni didn't know > you'd be watching him so closely! ;-)) > ---------------------------------------------------- I agree with you Howard. The Buddha often talked about the "mind" as if it were a continuing entity, then specified what actually took place in more detail, as he does with the famous monkey simile. However, I agree that Buddha could have learned a lot from Ken H. if he had been on the scene. It's a shame that only the likes of Ananda and Sariputra were around at the time. ;-) > I apologize for sounding unappreciative of your post. You were so > obviously trying to help, and that I do appreciate. Well, not everyone here at DSG agrees with Ken H.'s point of view. There are those who are in favor of meditation and understand and appreciate such metaphors of mind, and there are those who have a strict understanding of consciousness, or citta, arising in single unitary moments that do not last and are not combined in any way. Luckily we can allow for those of both sorts of view to have their say and engage in healthy debate. > Please stay at DSG for a while and learn about a mind that lasts for only > a tiny fraction of a second before it falls away and is replaced by a > completely new mind (just as, when a monkey is swinging through a forest, there > is only one branch grasped at a time - never two, and never none). I think that the monkey simile has already made the very point that you are trying to make, Ken H. Buddha starts by talking about the "mind" as a general proposition. Then he talks about its nature as a "monkey who grasps one branch and then lets go to grab another branch." This is in fact a fantastic metaphor for the arising and falling away of individual cittas. It even provides a sense of the development and accumulation of conditions, since the monkey lets go of one branch only as he grasps the next. There is a moment where the monkey's left hand is on branch A and his right hand is on branch B. It must be at that moment that branch A's accumulated conditions are transmitted, via the monkey, to branch B. Another mystery solved! :-) Best, Robert E. ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114284 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Ken) - In a message dated 3/29/2011 5:11:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: I went back and read the original post and this application and the stable time frame being discussed is nothing more complicated than a timer application. In order to have a regular time period for meditation the application plays chimes at the beginning and end of the period so you know when the practice period begins and ends. It's no different than timing yourself 45 minutes to practice the piano or anything else, except that this program allows you to pre-set more than one time period. Very handy for many activities. ================================ Ahhh! Better & better! I almost always rime my sitting meditations. A useful practice. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114285 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/29/2011 6:01:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> > H: IMO, Ken, it's really best not to generalize. Though not for years, I've been to a number of retreats and heard Dhamma from a number of fine Theravadin teachers, and what I heard never sounded anything remotely like this, which I agree seems entirely incoherent and meaningless. (I haven't a clue about this "fixed time" business.) ---- KH: I know what you mean about generalising, but in my opinion it is other people, not me, who are doing the generalising. People talk as if vipassana was just another religion, or just another self-help program. It isn't! Vipassana is in a category all of its own, entirely different from anything else. -------------- >> KH: The blurb goes on to talk about the mind as if it were a continuing entity, sometimes grasping one thing, other times grasping another thing. > H: As far as that is concerned, the Buddha used such a simile. For example, in SN 12.61, the Buddha taught: "But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another." --------------- KH: Yes, but how do you understand the expression "arises as one thing and ceases as another"? I'm no expert on the texts, but doesn't that mean there is no persisting consciousness? Doesn't it mean that the consciousness at the beginning of the day (or the beginning of any period of time) is one dhamma, and the consciousness at the end of the day is another dhamma? ------------------------------------------------------ It means the content differs. I view change as a constant thing. I don't conceive of one unchanging mind state persisting for some positive duration and then being replaced by another such. Each alleged persisting mind state would be a static thing, defying anicca, IMO. --------------------------------------------------- As I understand the monkey simile, consciousness is represented by the momentarily grabbed branch, not by the (permanent) monkey. --------------------------------------------------- The grabbed branch is the object-of-the-moment (and sometimes the thought-of-the-moment). -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- <. . .> > > KH: That sounds to me like an eternity teaching, or maybe an annihilation teaching. Whichever it is, it is certainly not the middle way. > H: Nope. It was Buddhadhamma. (It's just that ol' Sakyamuni didn't know you'd be watching him so closely! ;-)) ------------------------- KH: :-) To quote A Sujin: "The Buddha taught satipatthana, and every word of his teaching is to be understood in terms of satipatthana." ----------------------------------------------------- With all due respect, I prefer to quote the Buddha. (BTW, 'satipattana' means "foundation (or locale) for mindfulness," and not "wisdom". ----------------------------------------------------- Ken H ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114286 From: Lukas Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:55 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Problems again szmicio Hi Phil I am also alkoholic in deep stage,Please write me as soon as posible since I am living today Best Lukas p.s Actually when I was starting this topic falling in love, havin a girlfriend I was thinking of u , what u will said. You alwas are my samatha-silla mentor I appreciate it. I was wondering what u really think about relationships. Sorry for your loss in Japan Lukas > #114287 From: philip Coristine Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:06 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Problems again philofillet Hi Lukas, I will write you right niw off list. Metta, Phil #114288 From: "Tim Desmond" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:30 pm Subject: Re: Characteristics of cittas? timdesmondmft To Sarah, Nina and anyone else familiar with the primary text of the Abhidhamma. I sincerely appreciate your willingness to respond to me and I hope that I don't seem impertinent or obtuse. I believe that I do understand the points that you are making, but they don't seem to directly contradict the possibility of multiple cittas active at once. My reading of the the quotes you have shared so far describe the process of an individual citta. One citta manifests and ceases (sometimes in just one mind-moment) and it conditions future cittas. A mind-moment is a discreet unit of experience that is extremely small. This all makes perfect sense to me. I come from the belief that science and dhamma are both inquiries into the nature of reality, so their convergences matter a lot to me. The process you both eloquently describe as a citta mirrors almost exactly how a single neural network processes information. The key difference is between the idea of serial and parallel processing. Serial processing is the idea that information is processed in a single steam. Parallel processing means that information is processed in multiple streams. In parallel processing, the various processes happen at the same time, but they are relatively separate. Nothing that you have said so far necessarily conflicts with a parallel processing model. When you say that eye-sense-consciousness only has its particular object, I understand that. Scientists would say the same for a sensory neuron. They would describe a single neural network's process as something that happens in discreet units of time that are extremely small, and that many networks fire just once and then stimulate another to fire. The process of seeing, from the perspective of a scientist, is the firing of many neural networks in succession in a way that mirrors the progression from adverting to sensing to receiving to investigating, etc. They just say that in a single moment in the brain, many of these processes are happening at once. I'm wondering if there is anything in the Abhidhamma that conflicts with a parallel processing model. #114289 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: Rob E. wrote: > This doesn't seem that confusing to me, or that strange. It seems to just > be saying that one should practice at the same time each day to make a > stable habit of organizing the mind, or something to that effect. I have not > gone back to read the original, so I could be off, but I will check back. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Ahh. It hadn't occurred to me that this was what was meant by "fixed > time". If that is so, then I take back saying that it is incoherent and > meaningless. It was simply unclear, at least to me. I also don't happen to > agree with it if the meaning is an endorsement of a lockstep fixed time, though > I do think that reasonable regularity of practice is good. > ---------------------------------------------------- I would agree, Howard, that regularity rather than regimentation would be a good distinction to make. I think some of the confusion in the original post was syntactical. > Ken H. would object to this anyway - doing anything at a fixed time other > than surfing or eating meals; but I think that we who believe it is > possible to "do" things don't always mind having a schedule. > ---------------------------------------------------- > So long as we don't get obsessive about it. > -------------------------------------------------- Yes, obsession would involve clinging and control, and that would be bad. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #114290 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:20 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Problems again sarahprocter... Hi Friends (esp. Lukas), I just had a lovely skype/phone chat with Lukas (in Poland) - all about the Dhamma at this moment. He's having to get ready for his train trip now, but I'm sure he'd appreciate chatting to anyone else after he returns in 10 days or so. Sometimes, we all need to talk about the Dhamma "live", I'm sure. Lukas' English was very clear - so very easy to chat. He was telling me about how he was introduced to the Dhamma at 16 (he's now 25), but how the last year has been horrible - ever since his cousin introduced him to some opiates and his sila became badly affected. Still, he said he's smiling. He appreciates that these are all conditioned dhammas, that all kinds of accumulations show up in samsara and there will always be "ups and downs". What about now? What kind of accumulations are there now? Is there any understanding of the seeing, the thinking, the regret, the attachment now? What's gone has completely gone and having dosa about it doesn't help at all. None of these accumulations belong to Lukas, Sarah or anyone else - just dhammas arising and falling away. Lukas mentioned the bhava tanha and the clinging as soon as we wake up in the morning. We give such importance to what's gone and our future plans and forget that the only world is the one appearing through one door-way at a time now. All these dhammas, including the dosa, are so anatta - not belonging to anyone and not in anyone's control. We talked about understanding seeing and visible object now - a little sanity in a life of delusion. Appreciating how much delusion there is and how all these dhammas are conditioned can help us now to have more compassion and metta for others - same problems in life, i.e lobha, dosa and moha now. We chatted about thinking of various concepts and the role of sanna and vitakka. Instead of thinking about 'how we should think?' or 'what we should do?', there can be awareness of such thinking as just thinking now. Whether the thinking is about conditioned dhammas as anicca or one's bad behaviour in the past, it's all just thinking. The practice, the pariyatti and patipatti, all comes back to the understanding of the present realities only. Lukas also told me about his Masters degree he's studying for in English in a medical setting and his aspirations to be free of drugs and cigarettes. We talked a little about the domanassa, the unpleasant feeling. Of course this is just conditioned by the attachment, especially the attachment to oneself and one's own pleasant feelings. Wherever we are, whether on a retreat, on the train to the retreat, at home, at work, in Poland, in Hong Kong - there is just the present moment, just the seeing of visible object, the hearing of sound, the endless thinking about various concepts - ordinary, common daily life in samsara, on and on - in ignorance usually. However, there can be panna at this very moment! Best wishes for your trip Lukas and we'll have more dhamma discussion on your return! Metta Sarah p.s 'hi' to Derek - hope he joins us again one day! #114291 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 3/29/2011 5:11:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > > I went back and read the original post and this application and the stable > time frame being discussed is nothing more complicated than a timer > application. In order to have a regular time period for meditation the > application plays chimes at the beginning and end of the period so you know when > the practice period begins and ends. It's no different than timing yourself > 45 minutes to practice the piano or anything else, except that this program > allows you to pre-set more than one time period. Very handy for many > activities. > ================================ > Ahhh! Better & better! I almost always time my sitting meditations. A > useful practice. Yes, I do too. Sometimes when the time is up, I keep sitting, but it gives a general time period, which is useful. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #114292 From: philip Coristine Date: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:40 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Problems again philofillet Hi Sarah and all thanks for the Skype report, I look forward to talking with Lukas too when he gets back, Skype truly is a Dhamma discussion godsend. I was just listening to a talk in which Vince very eloquently was sayung that the first thing might be to learn how to stop hurting others and A Sujin said thar we have to have faith that panna will develop to do that, if we don't have confidence in panna. if we doubt it, it won't develop. Good to hear, not completely sold on that point (I still believe avoiding harming ourselves and others should come first) but grateful to hear such a pure, radical faith in understanding. Metta, Phil #114293 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:45 am Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Robert E and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Howard. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > Rob E. wrote: > > This doesn't seem that confusing to me, or that strange. It seems to just > > be saying that one should practice at the same time each day to make a > > stable habit of organizing the mind, or something to that effect. I have not > > gone back to read the original, so I could be off, but I will check back. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Ahh. It hadn't occurred to me that this was what was meant by "fixed > > time". If that is so, then I take back saying that it is incoherent and > > meaningless. It was simply unclear, at least to me. I also don't happen to > > agree with it if the meaning is an endorsement of a lockstep fixed time, though > > I do think that reasonable regularity of practice is good. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Ahh. It hadn't occurred to me that this was what was meant by "fixed > time". If that is so, then I take back saying that it is incoherent and > meaningless. It was simply unclear, at least to me. I also don't happen to > agree with it if the meaning is an endorsement of a lockstep fixed time, though > I do think that reasonable regularity of practice is good. -------------------------------------------- KH: I don't take back what I said. The fixed time for meditation was said to provide a "frame." That's the meaningless doubletalk I was referring to. Following that there was the usual hackenyed propaganda: sit quietly for a while and you will be a better person for the rest of the day. It's a tried and proven way of selling self-help books and meditation courses (and now chiming clocks) but it's just bunkum. Seeing it passed off as "the Buddha's teaching" makes me feel queasy. Ken H #114294 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:33 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Problems again sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- On Wed, 30/3/11, philip Coristine wrote: >thanks for the Skype report, I look forward to talking with Lukas too when he gets back, Skype truly is a Dhamma discussion godsend. .... S: I think he'd really appreciate that. I gather that there are not too many people in remote Northern Poland with a keen interest in the Dhamma to talk to! It was a very lively discussion and Lukas needs few reminders to remember what is useful and what is real, what the truth is, at this moment. .... > I was just listening to a talk in which Vince very eloquently was sayung that the first thing might be to learn how to stop hurting others and A Sujin said thar we have to have faith that panna will develop to do that, if we don't have confidence in panna. if we doubt it, it won't develop. Good to hear, not completely sold on that point (I still believe avoiding harming ourselves and others should come first) but grateful to hear such a pure, radical faith in understanding. .... S: We speak to others and reach out to help according to our understanding of what is most beneficial at this moment. For me, it does all come back to this moment and the kind of citta now, the realities being experienced now, but I think that when someone is having a difficult time, any acts of friendship are appreciated. We all just do our best according to our understanding at the time. You referred to your challenging qus (I forget your word, and will come back to them - behind with our reading as usual), but I wanted to say that after trying to answer the questions of some small half-Japanese kids at the beach on Sunday about what lies beyond outer space and the Big Bang, nothing here seems so challenging:-) Thx again for your kind words to other DSGers Metta Sarah ====== #114295 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- On Thu, 24/3/11, han tun wrote: >>[Sarah]: <...>As you know, with a couple of exceptions, kamma always brings its result later and the vipaka cittas, such as seeing and hearing arising now and the kammaja rupas, such as eye-sense and ear-sense, arising now are the result of kamma from past lives. ... >[Han]: I strongly believe that they are arising now not only as the result of kamma from past lives, but also from the kamma of present life. This is my main contention. As you rightly pointed out, this indeed touches on my "dispute" with the Burmese friends. My point is if the present causes do not result in the present effects, what is the point of learning Di.t.thadhamma-vedaniya kamma (immediately effective kamma). .... S: You always raise helpful points. My understanding is that the patisandhi citta (rebirth consciousness), the sense faculties and subsequent sense-experiencing cittas have to be the result of janaka (productive) kamma from a past life of the degree of kamma-patha. However, as you know and point out, there are other weaker kinds of kamma (not necessarily full kamma-patha) which may bring results by way of supporting or obstructing the results of the janaka kamma. For example, an act of killing a living being is kamma-patha and can bring its results in later lives. Hurting or harming are not full kamma-patha, but can bring "partial" results by way of support or obstruction. Birth in a human realm is the result of good kamma in the past, but there may be disabilities and problems that are the result of bad obstructive/destructive kamma. When it comes to the di.t.thadhamma-vedaniya kamma (immediately effective kamma) you mention, I understand this to be the weakest kamma which can only bring results in the same life-time or not at all. It comes about from just the first javana citta (the weakest of the javanas) and I believe it would be by way of support/obstruction of other kamma. For example, the painful bodily experiences when we are sick are a result of past kamma, but I assume this kamma from this life may support/obstruct those results. ..... > But since then, I do not dispute with my friends any more. I take the Buddha's advice that kamma and its effects are in the field of the Buddha, and we cannot know the precise working out of the results of kamma, as per AN 4.77 Acintita Sutta: Unconjecturable. Only the Buddha can know all these things. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.077.than.html .... S: This we certainly agree on! What kind of cittas are there when we try to conjecture about the unconjecturable!! .... >[Han]: Here, I would first like to refer to the Twenty Modes (Aakaara) of Dependent Origination taken from Dr Mehm Tin Mons book. (1) Past Causes (Atiita Hetu) = avijjaa, sankhaara, ta.nhaa, upaadaana, kamma-bhava. (2) Present Effects (Va.t.tamana Phala) = vi~n~naa.na, naama-ruupa, sa.laayatana, phassa, vedanaa. (3) Present Causes (Va.t.tamana Hetu) = ta.nhaa, upaadaana, kamma-bhava. (4) Future Effects (Anaagata Phala) = vi~n~naa.na, naama-ruupa, sa.laayatana, phassa, vedanaa. .... S: Yes, as classified, vi~n~naa.na is included as "effect" (phala) in both cases. .... >Thus it is stated in Visuddhi Magga (Path of Purification) that: Five causes were there in the past; Five fruits we find in present life; Five causes do we now produce; Five fruits we reap in future life. We should note that, although Pa.ticcasamuppaada states one cause for one effect, and the effect becomes the cause to give rise to another effect, actually many causes take part at the same time to give rise to many effects in real life. .... S: Very nicely set out and summarised. I've had to trim to set a good example:-) .... >[Han]: Here also, the present causes produce results only as future effects, and not as present effects. This shows that my strong belief in Di.t.thadhamma-vedaniya kamma is wrong. Resigning myself to this fact, I must say that we do not have any more significant disagreement. ... S: No, not wrong, but as I understand, Di.t.thadhamma-vedaniya kamma on its own is not strong enough to cause birth, sense experiencing, sensense bases, heart-base, masculinity/femininity and so on, but it must be able to give support/obstruction and have an effect in this life-time. Also, even if there is no result, the accumualtion of kamma is never 'lost'. Thx again for helping me to reflect further here, Han. As mentioned, I don't have access to texts here, so these are just my reflections for now. Metta Sarah ====== #114296 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems again nilovg Dear Sarah, Lukas, Phil, Han and all, Op 30-mrt-2011, om 7:20 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > He appreciates that these are all conditioned dhammas, that all > kinds of accumulations show up in samsara and there will always be > "ups and downs". What about now? What kind of accumulations are > there now? Is there any understanding of the seeing, the thinking, > the regret, the attachment now? What's gone has completely gone and > having dosa about it doesn't help at all. None of these > accumulations belong to Lukas, Sarah or anyone else - just dhammas > arising and falling away. ------- N: Thank you Sarah, what a good Dhamma talk. Lukas has such a good understanding of Dhamma and this most of all, and also the meditation course he will take will certainly help him. Phil, very good you will give Lukas tips. Han wrote some very good things about mettaa and siila. We can understand how someone else would feel, and this helps. I am also thinking of respect for another person no matter who he/she is. Nina. #114297 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta, no contro vs meditation . Why is there a problem? sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Herman), (Thx for keeping us up-dated when you go away, Howard. Hope all the family are well?) --- On Tue, 22/3/11, upasaka@... wrote: >>Herman: Sila, samadhi, panna are stepping stones only. Why chose a favourite stepping stone? ------------------------------------------- > A mistake to pursue only a favorite, of course. ----------------------------------------- S: Surprisingly perhaps, I agree! As I was discussing on the phone with Lukas, any idea of *choosing* any dhammas to arise or "pursue" is bound to be self-motivated and to end in tears, so to speak. If there is a trying to have panna, sila, samadhi or anything else good and noble, is just a wishing, a desire for results which obstructs such panna and so on from arising imho. .... >>S:....As Ven Samahita recently quoted: >The entire world is in flames, all the entire world is blazing up in smoke! The entire world is burning. The entire world is decaying and vanishing... But, that which does not vanish or burn, which is experienced by the Nobles,where Death has no entry, in that stilled silence mind finds sweet delight. Samyutta Nikâya 1.168 -------------------------------------------------- Howard:> That is such a wonderful quote!! Such a graphic word picture of samsara & nibbana! Sarah, I own a copy of SN, but I'd like an online version of this sutta. Do you have a link for it? --------------------------------------------- S: No, this was the only extract Ven S recently quoted. Perhaps someone else can find an online version - I just tried without success. If you have time, perhaps you can also give the translation from your copy of SN. .... >>S:What is the world that is in flames at this moment? The khandhas, the namas and rupas appearing one at a time - dukkha on account of being inherently impermanent and unsatisfactory. ----------------------------------------------- Howard:> And - importantly - craved, hated, and misconstrued. --------------------------------------------- S: Yes, misconstrued for sure. If they were truly understood as impermanent, unsatisfactory dhammas, not belonging to anyone, they wouldn't be craved and hated. Again, this was a topic in my chat with Lukas - what we find important in life and try to control are just these ivery temporary, insignificant dhammas. .... >>S:It's not a matter of choosing "a favourite stepping stone", but of understanding what the Buddha was talking about when he said "the entire world is blazing up in smoke". The unconditioned can only be realized when the conditioned is fully known. ----------------------------------------------- Howard:>And seen through! Also, as for "fully known," that should not mean encyclopedically. It should mean in terms of the tilakkhana. To know that a desert mirage is illusory is sufficient to prevent one from trying to drink sand, there being no need to know of the physics of heat and vision. The simsapa-leaf metaphor applies here as well. ----------------------------------------------- S: Yes, fully known - that is the dhammas appearing now, beginning with the understanding of them as just dhammas, not atta - person or thing. Nice to chat again! Metta Sarah ====== #114298 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Characteristics of cittas? nilovg Dear Tim, Op 30-mrt-2011, om 0:30 heeft Tim Desmond het volgende geschreven: > My reading of the the quotes you have shared so far describe the > process of an individual citta. One citta manifests and ceases > (sometimes in just one mind-moment) and it conditions future > cittas. A mind-moment is a discreet unit of experience that is > extremely small. > ------ N: But one citta is one mind-moment. ------ > > T: The key difference is between the idea of serial and parallel > processing. .... > > When you say that eye-sense-consciousness only has its particular > object, I understand that. Scientists would say the same for a > sensory neuron. They would describe a single neural network's > process as something that happens in discreet units of time that > are extremely small, and that many networks fire just once and then > stimulate another to fire. The process of seeing, from the > perspective of a scientist, is the firing of many neural networks > in succession in a way that mirrors the progression from adverting > to sensing to receiving to investigating, etc. They just say that > in a single moment in the brain, many of these processes are > happening at once. > > I'm wondering if there is anything in the Abhidhamma that conflicts > with a parallel processing model. > ------- N: What you explain here is all about conventional truth and what the Abhidhamma teaches is ultimate truth. Conventional truth is related to this or that person or thing, the brain, the neurons, paralel processing, etc. Ultimate truth concerns characteristics of realities that can be directly experienced, without having to name them. It leads to less clinging to a self or person. There is seeing now, but it is not a person who sees. Just one characteristic appearing at a time, and only that characteristic is to be investigated. All other thoughts about neurons and brain are of no concern at that moment. This is the way to find out for oneself whether there is only one citta or more than one. -------- Nina. > #114299 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:56 am Subject: Untroubled Yeah! bhikkhu5 Friends: What is the Fruit of the Noble Way? The Blessed Buddha once said: While alive, then he is untroubled, & when he dies too, then he is not worried! A recluse who has seen the goal, lives undisturbed even in a sorrowful world... Ud 46 Wherever he goes, there he is unafraid.. Wherever he sleeps, there he is unalarmed! The nights and days does neither touch nor burn him. He sees nothing in this world that is to be kept or lost.. Therefore his mind dwells in goodwill and gentle kindness towards all beings until he falls asleep. SN I 110 One who has attained the Dhamma has no task to do, as his task has been accomplished. As long as he has not obtained a foothold, the swimmer must strive to his utmost, but when he has found a place to rest his feet and gone up to dry land, his striving is over, because he has crossed to the further shore... SN I 48 Untroubled, unworried, unconcerned, unagitated & undisturbed! <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #114300 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Sarah, [Sarah]: You always raise helpful points. My understanding is that the patisandhi citta (rebirth consciousness), the sense faculties and subsequent sense-experiencing cittas have to be the result of janaka (productive) kamma from a past life of the degree of kamma-patha. However, as you know and point out, there are other weaker kinds of kamma (not necessarily full kamma-patha) which may bring results by way of supporting or obstructing the results of the janaka kamma. For example, an act of killing a living being is kamma-patha and can bring its results in later lives. Hurting or harming are not full kamma-patha, but can bring "partial" results by way of support or obstruction. Birth in a human realm is the result of good kamma in the past, but there may be disabilities and problems that are the result of bad obstructive/destructive kamma. When it comes to the di.t.thadhamma-vedaniya kamma (immediately effective kamma) you mention, I understand this to be the weakest kamma which can only bring results in the same life-time or not at all. It comes about from just the first javana citta (the weakest of the javanas) and I believe it would be by way of support/obstruction of other kamma. For example, the painful bodily experiences when we are sick are a result of past kamma, but I assume this kamma from this life may support/obstruct those results. [Sarah]: No, not wrong, but as I understand, Di.t.thadhamma-vedaniya kamma on its own is not strong enough to cause birth, sense experiencing, sensense bases, heart-base, masculinity/femininity and so on, but it must be able to give support/obstruction and have an effect in this life-time. Also, even if there is no result, the accumualtion of kamma is never 'lost'. ----------- [Han]: I admit that Di.t.thadhamma-vedaniya kamma is the weakest among the kammas in its group. But it should not be mixed up with reproductive, supportive, obstructive and destructive kammas, because they belong to different groups. A Kicca-kamma Catukka (with respect to function) 1 Janaka-kamma (Reproductive kamma) 2 Upatthambhaka-kamma (Supportive kamma) 3 Upapii.laka-kamma (Obstructive kamma) 4 Upaghaataka-kamma (Destructive kamma) B Paakadaanapariyaaya-kamma Catukka (with respect to the priority in bearing results) 1 Garuka-kamma (weighty kamma) 2 Asa.n.na-kamma (proximate kamma) 3 Aaci.n.na-kamma (habitual kamma) 4 Ka.tattaa-kamma (unspecified kamma) C Paakakaala-kamma Catukka (with respect to the time of taking effect) 1 Di.t.thadhammavedaniya-kamma (immediately effective kamma) 2 Upapajjavedaniya-kamma (subsequently effective kamma) 3 Aparaapariyavedaniya-kamma (indefinitely effective kamma) 4 Ahosi-kamma (defunct kamma which no longer bears fruits) D Paakathaana-kamma Catukka (with respect to the place where the kammic effect takes place) 1 Akusala kamma (immoral action that produces its effect in the four apaaya abodes) 2 Kaamaavacara-kusala kamma (moral action that produces its effect in the seven sensuous blissful realms) 3 Ruupaavacara-kusala kamma (moral action that produces its effect in the sixteen ruupa-realms) 4 Aruupaavacara-kusala kamma (moral action that produces its effect in the four aruupa-realms) Anyway, I have stopped my discussions on Di.t.thadhammavedaniya-kamma. ==================== [Sarah]: Yes, as classified, vi~n~naa.na is included as "effect" (phala) in both cases. [Han] You are insisting that Vi~n~naa.na cannot condition the arising of Naama-ruupa in Dependent Origination step (3) Vi~n~naa.na paccaya Naama-ruupa, because vi~n~naa.na is an effect (phala) in both the cases in the Twenty Modes of DO. That is because you have summarily dismissed my writings on step (3) and on my personal thoughts on the 29 cetanaas. In Step (3) 32 lokiya vipaaka vi~n~naa.nas condition the arising of 35 cetasikas; and 29 kamma vi~n~naa.nas condition the arising of 18 kammaja-ruupas. The "kamma vi~n~naa.na" is the name of the 29 cetanaas of the present life (in step 3); whereas "sa"nkhaara" is the name of the same 29 cetanaas of the past life (in steps 1 and 2). This same 29 cetanaas will assume yet another name in the later part of the present life as "kamma-bhava" (in steps 9 and 10). Respectfully, Han #114301 From: philip Coristine Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:20 am Subject: Hearing a waterfall (Nina) philofillet Hi Nina I am confused by something on p. 68 of SPD: "Ate sounds that appear through the ear sense the same or are there different sounds? Each sound is different depending on the conditions that caused the arising of that sound. No matter how many people there are, the sound of each individual is different. Citta clearly knows each of the different sounds that appear. Citta knows the sound of ridicule, of sarcasm..of a fan, of a waterfall, the different calls of the various kinds of animals etc....Citta clearly knowd the characteristics of the diffetent sounds; it hears each different sound." I think hearing hears sound, not a waterfall. I think waterfall is the product of thinking, not the object of hearing. Can you help me understand this passage? Thanks in advance as always. Metta, Phil #114302 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hearing a waterfall (Nina) nilovg Dear Phil, Appreciating it that you study Kh Sujin's Survey. Op 30-mrt-2011, om 12:20 heeft philip Coristine het volgende geschreven: > I think hearing hears sound, not a waterfall. I think waterfall is > the product of thinking, not the object of hearing. Can you help me > understand this passage? Thanks in advance as always. ----- N: Sound of a waterfall, an example of a specific kind of sound. Like in the Abhidhamma book 1, Dhammasangani,621, many example are given of sounds; of drums, of cymbals, of water. noise of people, etc. To show that these are all different sounds, not a neutral sound. Like now there is the sound of drilling in the neighbour's house, and the music I have put on (Sweelinck, singing and trumpets). Of course afterwards there is the definition of this or that sound, the source of it. But there are also moments of hearing those different sounds. It is very natural, daily life. People may try to hear a neutral sound which does not exist. Citta knows the sound of a dog's barking and also the sound of someone imitating the barking. There is thinking, but if such sounds would not be different how could there be thinking of their difference? The same with colours, they are all different, and also examples are given in the same Book (617): blue, red, of the moon, of a gem etc. I like those examples. colour is not just grey. ------- Nina. #114303 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:21 am Subject: To Sarah: What Kamma? hantun1 Dear Sarah, Kindly read the following news reports. Wednesday, March 30, 2011 China on Wednesday executed three Filipinos who were convicted of drug smuggling despite last-minute appeals for clemency and political concessions by Philippine leaders, officials said. Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2011 A man convicted of killing two people in a 1989 Phoenix convenience store robbery was executed Tuesday despite last-minute arguments by his attorneys who raised questions over one of the lethal injection drugs and said there was "substantial doubt" about his guilt. Han: Are the above executions the examples of: (1) the kamma of the past life ripening in this life? or (2) the kamma of the present life ripening in the present life? I will not argue. I will accept whatever you say. Respectfully, Han #114304 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is "direct" understanding? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 29-mrt-2011, om 22:24 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Unfortunately, as it comes to patipatti - it is not that good. > > Physical seclusion in proper place is an important component > according to the Buddha (MN17) and commentaries such as VsM. > > Not every place is an ideal place. That is why the suttas and > commentaries often talk about going into physical seclusion and > meditating there. The VsM is clear about it, and in certain > paragraphs talks about physical impediments. > > If one doesn't progress in certain place, then one should leave > that place and go to the place where one will progress - even if in > that place it will be difficult to get enough requisites... ------- N: This is said with reference to samatha. But for understanding dhammas through vipassanaa: at any place, at any time, in any circumstances. There can be awareness of a reality such as hardness in order to come to know it as a mere dhamma, not a person, not a thing. Is there not hardness everywhere? I listened to a recording and will render what Kh Sujin said. Sati is very short and it is not so that by just being aware for a moment a reality can be clearly known. Sati-sampaja~n~na that arises countless times will lead to clear understanding. Seeing is not self but usually we are forgetful, it passes without it being known. Then it is self who sees, self is there. It seems that we see people and things but in reality paramattha dhammas appear, and in order to know them, no naming is necessary. What appears through the eyes the blind cannot see. Kh Sujin said that the four right efforts are very important, and they can develop through listening, discussion, considering. They are part of the enlightenment factors. All enlightenment factors should be developed together. Kh Sujin emphasized that satipatthaana should be developed for a long time, not just during one lifetime. Sometimes people say that the development of understanding is so difficult and then Kh Sujin answers:"Now you are praising the great wisdom of the Buddha." ------- Nina. #114305 From: "philip" Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hearing a waterfall (Nina) philofillet Hi Nina, Thank you, interesting, I think I am misunderstanding rupa as something neutral that is conceptualized into something that has a qualitative aspect but of course as you say there has to be some difference in the rupa for thinking about it to be different. In Thailand I asked if all the rupas in Khun D D's lovely garden were different from the rupas in noisy dirty Bangkok city center, it had seemed to me thst rupa was rupa at a fundamental level, with no difference but no of course that couldn't be. So the smell of a flower is not a concept, it is a reality? The soft voice of the mother I heard speak to a child in the supermarket tonight which sounded so tender to me, that tender voice is not a concept, it is a reality? And yet there is no being producing the tender voice that is a reality? it is difficult to understand but not to worry, now I am better understanding rupa has qualitative differences, even hardness can be coarse or subtle... Metta, Phil #114306 From: Vince Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:29 pm Subject: A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pāli Buddhism cerovzt@... A very interesting .pdf with lots of references and comments: "A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pali Buddhism", Tzungkuen Wen http://xrl.in/8nuc "This thesis aims to explore the doctrine of sukkhavipassaka (dry-insight practitioner) in Pali Buddhism. The focus of the thesis is to utilize the canonical and commentarial sources of the various Buddhist schools to evaluate the position of this doctrine in the history of early Buddhism" site: http://tkwen.theravada-chinese.org/ Vince. #114307 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:35 pm Subject: Re: what is "direct" understanding? truth_aerator Dear Nina, Sarah, all, > N: This is said with reference to samatha. Not only. The MN17 sutta does talk about other things as well: "When abiding there, unestablished mindfulness does not get established, unconcentrated mind does not concentrate, not destroyed desires do not get destroyed, and the not attained noble end of the yoke is not attained;" - MN17 Mindfulness, and progress in destroying the taints is also mentioned. Not simply samatha. Apparently, there are places helpful or not, for progress. As I understand it, some objects can distract one and serve as object-decisive support condition (arammanupanissaya-paccaya) for the defilements. Also some circumstances may be natural decisive support (pakatupanissaya) condition for defilements. During the moment when defilements are operating, there isn't wisdom present at that moment... Even satipatthana sutta that is often claimed to be the most important vipassana sutta does start with: "having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building..." The commentaries explain these suttas to mean what they say. Going into physical seclusion. So it is good for progress to avoid such places and objects, right? With metta, Alex #114308 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:35 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > > Hi Robert E and Howard, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Howard. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Rob E. wrote: > > > This doesn't seem that confusing to me, or that strange. It seems to just > > > be saying that one should practice at the same time each day to make a > > > stable habit of organizing the mind, or something to that effect. I have not > > > gone back to read the original, so I could be off, but I will check back. > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > Ahh. It hadn't occurred to me that this was what was meant by "fixed > > > time". If that is so, then I take back saying that it is incoherent and > > > meaningless. It was simply unclear, at least to me. I also don't happen to > > > agree with it if the meaning is an endorsement of a lockstep fixed time, though > > > I do think that reasonable regularity of practice is good. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Ahh. It hadn't occurred to me that this was what was meant by "fixed > > time". If that is so, then I take back saying that it is incoherent and > > meaningless. It was simply unclear, at least to me. I also don't happen to > > agree with it if the meaning is an endorsement of a lockstep fixed time, > though > > I do think that reasonable regularity of practice is good. > -------------------------------------------- > > KH: I don't take back what I said. Of course you don't! I wouldn't expect you to listen to a reasonable explanation. That would undercut your pre-existing views, and we wouldn't want that to happen. > The fixed time for meditation was said to provide a "frame." That's the meaningless doubletalk I was referring to. That's not meaningless doubletalk, that's ordinary speech. A "frame" or "framework" means a structure, like, for instance...setting a time to do something. Wooooo, spooky! There's nothing confusing or weird about it, unless you refuse to use common sense. > Following that there was the usual hackenyed propaganda: sit quietly for a while and you will be a better person for the rest of the day. It's a tried and proven way of selling self-help books and meditation courses (and now chiming clocks) but it's just bunkum. In conventional terms, sitting and having a time to be calm, take stock, relax, whatever, is a very healthy and useful thing to do. Only someone in complete denial of reality would say it makes no difference. > Seeing it passed off as "the Buddha's teaching" makes me feel queasy. You should feel queasy about your own polarized and highly prejudiced view. In these areas, you just don't know what you're talking about. And your view of the Dhamma is quite skewed. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114309 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:08 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: Yes, but how do you understand the expression "arises as one thing and ceases as another"? > H: It means the content differs. I view change as a constant thing. I don't conceive of one unchanging mind state persisting for some positive duration and then being replaced by another such. Each alleged persisting mind state would be a static thing, defying anicca, IMO. ---- KH: You have said on a number of occasions that there is really only nibbana, and the so-called conditioned world is just a mistaken view of nibbana. If that were the case, what would it matter which way we mistakenly viewed nibbana? We could mistakenly view it as absolute conditioned realities, or we could mistakenly view it as consciousness with constantly changing object-content. We could even view it as a vee-formation of flying purple elephants, it would all be the same. --------- > > KH: As I understand the monkey simile, consciousness is represented by the momentarily grabbed branch, not by the (permanent) monkey. > H: The grabbed branch is the object-of-the-moment (and sometimes the thought-of-the-moment). ---------- KH: And what is the permanent monkey that swings through the jungle? According to my (uninformed) interpretation of the simile, the permanent monkey represents of a stream of cittas. Like all concepts, the stream has an appearance of permanence. ------------- <. . .> KH: To quote A Sujin: "The Buddha taught satipatthana, and every word of his teaching is to be understood in terms of satipatthana." > H: With all due respect, I prefer to quote the Buddha. ------------- KH: There is nothing to stop you from doing both. Neither contradicts the other. ------------------- >H: (BTW,'satipattana' means "foundation (or locale) for mindfulness," and not "wisdom". ------------------- KH: According to the Theravada texts, satipatthana refers to slightly different things in different contexts. It can refer to the Buddha's teaching, it can refer to classifications of things that are to be known with right understanding, or it can simply refer to right understanding itself. In all cases the meaning is basically the same. Ken H #114310 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/30/2011 10:08:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: Yes, but how do you understand the expression "arises as one thing and ceases as another"? > H: It means the content differs. I view change as a constant thing. I don't conceive of one unchanging mind state persisting for some positive duration and then being replaced by another such. Each alleged persisting mind state would be a static thing, defying anicca, IMO. ---- KH: You have said on a number of occasions that there is really only nibbana, and the so-called conditioned world is just a mistaken view of nibbana. If that were the case, what would it matter which way we mistakenly viewed nibbana? We could mistakenly view it as absolute conditioned realities, or we could mistakenly view it as consciousness with constantly changing object-content. We could even view it as a vee-formation of flying purple elephants, it would all be the same. --------------------------------------------------- Not at all. The misperceptions we have are varied, but each is specific. Separateness, by which I mean independent existence, is one such, IMO. ---------------------------------------------------- --------- > > KH: As I understand the monkey simile, consciousness is represented by the momentarily grabbed branch, not by the (permanent) monkey. > H: The grabbed branch is the object-of-the-moment (and sometimes the thought-of-the-moment). ---------- KH: And what is the permanent monkey that swings through the jungle? ------------------------------------------------------ There is none. The talk of "mind" is just talk. However, Abhidhamma points out that there are no gaps in conciousness. Do you realize that? Moreover, what, IYO,distinguishes one citta from another other than the object and accompanying cetasikas? Consciousness is just the activity of knowing. One moment of consciousness is no different from any other except for what is being known and what other mental operations and qualities (i.e., cetasika) also occur along with it. ------------------------------------------------------- According to my (uninformed) interpretation of the simile, the permanent monkey represents of a stream of cittas. Like all concepts, the stream has an appearance of permanence. ------------- <. . .> KH: To quote A Sujin: "The Buddha taught satipatthana, and every word of his teaching is to be understood in terms of satipatthana." > H: With all due respect, I prefer to quote the Buddha. ------------- KH: There is nothing to stop you from doing both. Neither contradicts the other. ------------------- >H: (BTW,'satipattana' means "foundation (or locale) for mindfulness," and not "wisdom". ------------------- KH: According to the Theravada texts, satipatthana refers to slightly different things in different contexts. It can refer to the Buddha's teaching, it can refer to classifications of things that are to be known with right understanding, or it can simply refer to right understanding itself. In all cases the meaning is basically the same. Ken H =================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114311 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:45 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ---- <. . .> >> KH: I don't take back what I said. > RE:Of course you don't! I wouldn't expect you to listen to a reasonable explanation. That would undercut your pre-existing views, and we wouldn't want that to happen. ---- KH: Don't get you blood pressure up. :-) ----------------- <. . .> > RE: In conventional terms, sitting and having a time to be calm, take stock, relax, whatever, is a very healthy and useful thing to do. Only someone in complete denial of reality would say it makes no difference. ------------------ KH: I live my whole life that way. What I don't do is misrepresent my lifestyle as "the way of the Buddha." -------------------- > > KH: Seeing it passed off as "the Buddha's teaching" makes me feel queasy. > RE: You should feel queasy about your own polarized and highly prejudiced view. In these areas, you just don't know what you're talking about. ----------------- KH: I do know what I am talking about. I was practising formal vipassana rituals when you were still in short pants. ---------------------- > RE: And your view of the Dhamma is quite skewed. --------------------- KH: My view of the Dhamma is not skewed. The only difference between it and the views of certain nice people at DSG is in the presentation. :-) Ken H #114312 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:45 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: According to the Theravada texts, satipatthana refers to slightly different things in different contexts. It can refer to the Buddha's teaching, it can refer to classifications of things that are to be known with right understanding, or it can simply refer to right understanding itself. In all cases the meaning is basically the same. I think that satipatthana is easy to turn into a religion in its own right instead of seeing it as a technical state or technical vehicle for developing mindfulness. It is not something separate from sati, but is the appropriate vehicle or fields of awareness for the development of sati. Satipatthana from what I understand usually refers to the 4 foundations of mindfulness, or four fields within which mindfulness is applied and developed, that is, rupa/bodysense, feeling/vedana, citta/mind-states, and finally experienced phenomena, seen as they really are as objects of citta, and often called 'objects as mind' to denote their experiential and mental nature. Bikkhu Bodhi has said that he believes that a better translation is the 4 establishments, or establishings, of mindfulness, or sati + uppatthana, which gives it a more active sense, or perhaps more of a sense of fulfillment of mindfulness in each area. Either way, it is the development of mindfulness by being aware of these 4 major areas of experience. Buddha said that the development of sati to its fulfillment, particularly in reference to awareness of breathing, will lead directly to the development and fulfillment of the 7 enlightenment factors, and that this will lead to enlightenment. So in that sense satipatthana as the vehicle of the full development of sati, is the key to awakening. And there is a direct bridge from anapanasati to satipatthana. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114313 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:51 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Robert E, > > ---- > <. . .> > >> KH: I don't take back what I said. > > > RE:Of course you don't! I wouldn't expect you to listen to a reasonable > explanation. That would undercut your pre-existing views, and we wouldn't want that to happen. > ---- > > KH: Don't get you blood pressure up. :-) Thanks. > ----------------- > <. . .> > > RE: In conventional terms, sitting and having a time to be calm, take stock, relax, whatever, is a very healthy and useful thing to do. Only someone in complete denial of reality would say it makes no difference. > ------------------ > > KH: I live my whole life that way. > > What I don't do is misrepresent my lifestyle as "the way of the Buddha." Buddha extoled samatha. Do you think samatha is developed by running around like a chicken? > -------------------- > > > KH: Seeing it passed off as "the Buddha's teaching" makes me feel queasy. > > > RE: You should feel queasy about your own polarized and highly prejudiced view. In > these areas, you just don't know what you're talking about. > ----------------- > > KH: I do know what I am talking about. I was practising formal vipassana rituals when you were still in short pants. Your vipassana "rituals" don't represent real meditation, if that's what they were. And I doubt very much that I'm younger than you. Unless you've been passing off your old pictures. :-) > ---------------------- > > RE: And your view of the Dhamma is quite skewed. > --------------------- > > KH: My view of the Dhamma is not skewed. The only difference between it and the views of certain nice people at DSG is in the presentation. :-) It's skewed anyway! :-) Others may be a bit skewed too. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114314 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is "direct" understanding? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 31-mrt-2011, om 0:35 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > N: This is said with reference to samatha. > > Not only. The MN17 sutta does talk about other things as well: > > "When abiding there, unestablished mindfulness does not get > established, unconcentrated mind does not concentrate, not > destroyed desires do not get destroyed, and the not attained noble > end of the yoke is not attained;" - MN17 ------- N: The Buddha spoke to monks and there are several factors that have to be taken into consideration with regard to the monk's life. The sutta does not say: go to the forest and it is sure that there will be mindfulness. There may not be an opportunity for the monk to obtain the necessary requisites there. That is not favorable for the monk to develop understanding. And as to association with a person, this is a layperson he is dependent on for his requisites. But suppose that person babbles about silly things, such a situation is not favorable for the monk. The monk also has to avoid being in villages for a long time, since a lot of animal talk is going on. Moreover, the monk may be developing both jhaana and vipassanaa. In that case he has to take into consideration the obstacles to samatha, the palibodhas. In the Vis. we read that what is a palibodha for samatha such as a place is not an obstacle for vipassanaa. --------- > > > A: As I understand it, some objects can distract one and serve as > object-decisive support condition (arammanupanissaya-paccaya) for > the defilements. Also some circumstances may be natural decisive > support (pakatupanissaya) condition for defilements. > > During the moment when defilements are operating, there isn't > wisdom present at that moment... ------- N: That is right, but also defilements have to be known as conditioned dhammas. See the satipatthaanasutta, application of mindfulness of citta, application of mindfulness of dhammas. If defilements are not known as they are, they can never be eradicated. ------- > > A: Even satipatthana sutta that is often claimed to be the most > important vipassana sutta does start with: > > "having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an > empty building..." > > The commentaries explain these suttas to mean what they say. Going > into physical seclusion. ------- N: For those who also develop jhaana. And then, even jhaanacitta has to be known as a conditioned dhamma, devoid of self. --------- > > > A: So it is good for progress to avoid such places and objects, right? ------- N: For the monk it is different, he has to observe the Vinaya rules. As to lay followers, when they are in certain places and circumstances, they are there already because of conditions. What can they do? Develop understanding of whatever appears, and also know defilements as conditioned dhammas. ------ Nina. #114315 From: "antony272b2" Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:17 am Subject: Self-view & Computer Rage antony272b2 Hi, For a long time I've had a problem with computer rage when I want to commit a keystroke or mouse-click and my body doesn't co-operate. I say "You won't let me do it!" as if there is another person preventing me from doing what I want (usually with hindsight it is wise intuition). How do I overcome this self-view and what according to the Abhidhamma determines whether the body completes the keystroke or mouse-click? Thanks / Antony. #114316 From: philip Coristine Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:56 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Hearing a waterfall (Nina) philofillet Hi Nina A follow up. 1) Sound is not in the kalapa of 8 rupa that always arise, right? So is sound a rupa or a combination of othrr rupas? 2)Hearing consciousness is always accompanied by neutral feeling so it seems confusing to me that the rupa that is or makes up sound can have pleasant or unpleasant aspect such as gentle or harsh, wouldn't that immediately condition pleasant or unpleasant feeling. Those only come through the mind door cittas that follow? Metta, Phil To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: philco777@... Hi Nina, Thank you, interesting, I think I am misunderstanding rupa as something neutral that is conceptualized into something that has a qualitative aspect but of course as you say there has to be some difference in the rupa for thinking about it to be different. <...> #114317 From: "philip" Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems again philofillet Hi Sarah, Vince and all > > I was just listening to a talk in which Vince very eloquently was sayung that the first thing might be to learn how to stop hurting others and A Sujin said thar we have to have faith that panna will develop to do that, if we don't have confidence in panna. if we doubt it, it won't develop. Good to hear, not > > completely sold on that point (I still believe avoiding harming ourselves and others should come first) but > grateful to hear such a pure, radical faith in understanding. > .... > S: We speak to others and reach out to help according to our understanding of what is most beneficial at this moment. For me, it does all come back to this moment and the kind of citta now, the realities being experienced now, but I think that when someone is having a difficult time, any acts of friendship are appreciated. We all just do our best according to our understanding at the time. Ph: I guess if someone is in danger of dying from hardcore alcoholism, we have to take action to keep them from killing themsrlves whether there is understanding of tge present moment or not. If a friend is drowning you don't stop to consider the present realities (if there are conditions for such a cobsideration, great) you pull them out. Afterwards you can consider hiw much and what kind of understanding was involved. The most important thing is that Lukas ovetcome his alcoholism. Yes, he is very fortunate to have a sensitivity to understanding the present dhammas, that will help, especially (perhaps) with avoiding remorse or self-recrimination when there are backslides. And of course it will help for true liberation ftom all harmful habits. Maybe we can say that the medical/psychological/best friend saying "stop it!" efforts to save him are not about Dhamma at all and only understanding dhammas is about Dhamma, and that is our topic at DSG and you might be right. Metta, Phil p.s I vowed not to discuss conventional morality any more, another vow bites the dust :) > Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Problems again > > > > Hi Friends (esp. Lukas), > > > > I just had a lovely skype/phone chat with Lukas (in Poland) - all about the Dhamma at this moment. He's having to get ready for his train trip now, but I'm sure he'd appreciate chatting to anyone else after he returns in 10 days or so. Sometimes, we all need to talk about the Dhamma "live", I'm sure. > > <...> > #114318 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:21 pm Subject: Pure Peace ... bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the characteristics of the State called Nibbâna? Total ease, complete calm, absolute stillness, safe freedom, perfect happiness & pure peace… Absence of any uncertainty, any doubt, any confusion, any delusion & all ignorance… Presence of confidence, cleared certainty, understanding all, and direct experience… Absence of any greed, lust, desire, urge, attraction, hunger, temptation and pull… Presence of imperturbable indifference, serene composure & all stilled equanimity… Absence of any hate, anger, aversion, hostility, irritation, & stubborn rigidity… Presence of universal goodwill, infinite friendliness, all-embracing & boundless kindness… Not a place, not an idea, not a fantasy, not a deception, not a conceit, not a conception… Not a cause, not an effect, not finite, not definable, not formed, not changing, but eternal… Unborn, unbecome, unmade, uncreated, uncaused, unconditioned & unconstructed, yet real… Void of eye, visible objects & visual consciousness, void of ear, sounds & auditory consciousness, Void of nose, smells & olfactory consciousness, void of tongue, tastes & gustatory consciousness, Void of body, touch & tactile consciousness and void of mind, thoughts & mental consciousness… Pure Peace @ Rest … The Blessed Buddha once said: Hard it is to see the unconstructed, the undistorted! This independent state is not easily realized. Craving is all cut for the One, who so knows, since he sees, that there is nothing to cling to ... !!! … Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 2 In any dependence there is bound to be instability. In Independence there cannot be any instability. When there is no liable instability, no feeble wavering, there is a quiet calm, stillness, serenity & peace. When there is such solid tranquillity, then there is no tendency to drift, no attraction, neither mental push nor pull, nor any strain of appeal or repulsion. When there is no attraction, no drift, no bending, then there is no movement, no development, and neither any coming nor any going. Neither any starting nor any ending... When there is neither any coming nor any going, then there is neither any ceasing nor any reappearing... There being neither ceasing nor reappearing, then there is neither any here, there, beyond, nor in between... This – just this – is the End of Suffering. Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 4 Having understood this unconstructed state, released in mind, with the chain to becoming eliminated, they attain to the sublime essence of all states. Delighting in the calmed end of craving, those steady Noble Ones have left all being & becoming behind. Itivuttaka: Thus spoken 38 Nibbana is The Highest Bliss! <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <...> #114319 From: SARAH CONNELL Date: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pāli Buddhism dhammasanna Hi Vince, Thank you for the link to this PhD thesis. I have started reading it. In the beginning the author also refers to a resource which is really wonderful. It is www.budsir.org/program/ which is an access to the Pali canon, commentaries, sub-commentaries a well as other non-canonical works. It also has the Thai version of these references. All I can say is WOW for this resource. May you be well and happy and always smiling, Sarah Jane ________________________________ From: Vince To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, March 30, 2011 5:29:48 PM Subject: [dsg] A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pāli Buddhism A very interesting .pdf with lots of references and comments: "A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pali Buddhism", Tzungkuen Wen http://xrl.in/8nuc <...> #114320 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self-view & Computer Rage sarahprocter... Hi Antony, --- On Thu, 31/3/11, antony272b2 wrote: >For a long time I've had a problem with computer rage when I want to commit a keystroke or mouse-click and my body doesn't co-operate. I say "You won't let me do it!" as if there is another person preventing me from doing what I want (usually with hindsight it is wise intuition). How do I overcome this self-view and what according to the Abhidhamma determines whether the body completes the keystroke or mouse-click? .... S: When we understand that the rupas of the body are all conditioned by kamma, citta, temperature or nutriment, it's easier to accept that no being is involved at all! When we go to make a keystroke, cittas are conditioning rupas, but of course there is much more involved than just intentions to type letters. If our fingers are very cold or we're sick, we can see how in spite of those intentions, kamma, temperature and nutriment are also conditioning rupas and so it seems that the "body doesn't co-operate". After swimming in winter, I find I'm unable to open my front door with the key or a patient after an accident may not be able to move any limbs at all. As for "overcoming the self-view", the only way is to understand dhammas - namas and rupas - when they appear for what they are. Just conditioned dhammas which are experienced, such as the tangible objects of hardness/softness, heat/cold and motion, and those dhammas which can experience objects, such as the bodily experience, the feelings, the thinking or the seeing consciousness now. I always appreciate your questions and reflections, Antony. Metta Sarah ======= #114321 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Robert) - In a message dated 3/31/2011 1:45:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: KH: I do know what I am talking about. I was practising formal vipassana rituals when you were still in short pants. ======================================== I'm no fan of Mahasi-style observing of the belly-movement and mentally labeling everything either. I also gave that up years ago. I consider the process to be overly formal and the labeling to be thinking, not meditating - at best, a "contemplation" of sorts. I also believe that the most typical meditation taught by the Buddha was an in-tandem one, with development of calm and insight occurring together, and a very natural one process, simple in a way - a matter of being still and merely attentive to what arises and ceases, the ebb & flow of experience, a practice that after a while "just happens". In any case, Ken, there is no reason, IMO. for you to take your disliked experience with something not taught by the Buddha - which is my evaluation of it- as basis for telling the world that meditating, something that the Buddha certainly taught (IMO), is useless and possibly harmful "ritual". Note: I write this not as a salvo in a debate, but just to let you know how I think about this matter. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114322 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi again, Ken & Robert - In a message dated 3/31/2011 8:27:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: I also believe that the most typical meditation taught by the Buddha was an in-tandem one, with development of calm and insight occurring together, and a very natural one process, simple in a way - a matter of being still and merely attentive to what arises and ceases, the ebb & flow of experience, a practice that after a while "just happens". =================================== Please ignore the word 'one' in the foregoing to make it intelligible. (Even though you will still consider it nonsensical, Ken. ;-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114323 From: Vince Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pāli Buddhism cerovzt@... glad you enjoy it :) In my case I'm unable to read Pali but I find very useful the review of many Suttas referring progress without a jhana cultivation in the floor. best, Sarah wrote: > Thank you for the link to this PhD thesis. I have started reading it. In the > beginning the author also refers to a resource which is really wonderful. It is > www.budsir.org/program/ which is an access to the Pali canon, commentaries, > sub-commentaries a well as other non-canonical works. It also has the Thai > version of these references. All I can say is WOW for this resource. > > May you be well and happy and always smiling, > > Sarah Jane #114324 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:47 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Howard, ----- <. . .> > H: I'm no fan of Mahasi-style observing of the belly-movement and > mentally labeling everything either. I also gave that up years ago. I consider the > process to be overly formal and the labeling to be thinking, not > meditating - at best, a "contemplation" of sorts. I also believe that the most > typical meditation taught by the Buddha was an in-tandem one, with development > of calm and insight occurring together, and a very natural one process, > simple in a way - a matter of being still and merely attentive to what arises > and ceases, the ebb & flow of experience, a practice that after a while > "just happens". > In any case, Ken, there is no reason, IMO. for you to take your > disliked experience with something not taught by the Buddha - which is my > evaluation of it- as basis for telling the world that meditating, something that > the Buddha certainly taught (IMO), is useless and possibly harmful "ritual". > Note: I write this not as a salvo in a debate, but just to let you > know how I think about this matter. --------- Thanks, Howard, I think you are telling me, "OK, you've made your point!" Normally that would be a good reason to stop harping on about something, but in this case I have not made my point. Some people still don't know what I am talking about. Furthermore, there are people here who do know what I am talking about - *and much more besides* but who still appreciate reminders. Some of us could have discussions on 'no control' every day and still find them fresh and rewarding. If we could just understand *this present moment* (how there are only impersonal dhammas arising and falling away) our problems would be solved. We could pack up and go home. :-) But, for various reasons, some people (and all of us at times) fail to understand. And so we find ourselves thinking of the Dhamma as a conventional set of instructions. (!) It's a terrible shame that would be. Phil would call it "spitting in the Buddha's face." :-) Ken H #114325 From: jacob douglas Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:07 am Subject: just joining the posting group perpetualfl0w Dear "Moderators" I have just received a reply email , i'm assuming resulting from the attempt to send a message to your posting group earlier today. I am unfamilier with communicating through a blogging system such as this exactly and it seems it may take a bit of catching up to do to grasp the details of make use of this communication and learning system for my own benifit more easily. For now, I am writing from a cafe in downtown mae sariang , thailand , where i have scooted away from the monastery in the rural area for the afternoon, where i am currently stationed, in order to try and reach out and try to make contact with "others" regarding the development of understanding paramatta dhammas, and gain inspiration from the concept that there are "others" who are trying to similarly. Just now i have spent several hours here and am tired to write much of an introduction that i now understand is appropriate to write innitially introduce one's history and views and so on that may help others to become more aware of my intentions in joining the posting group. I feel I have made major advances in setting good conditions for the arising of kusala dhamma by sinking into this website this afternoon , and hope to learn more in the future. For now it may suffice to just briefly state that I am a 26 yr old male person who has decided that the conceptual study of paramatta dhammas and being wise about developing supportive conditions for the arising of Sati and Panna is the most fundamentally valuable form of learning , or thing that i can engage in, and am glad to do so. Hearing of others experiences is a source of faith and gives rise to joy that inspires the mind towards Dhamma chanda. I rejoice in the Great Victories of the Buddhas and Sanghas of the past , future and present , May all who aspire for happiness and freedom meet with success, May we all rejoice in our own right efforts and good fortune. May all the greater and lesser blessings support all the beings in the world. - with kindness, Jacob P Douglas #114326 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:52 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Howard and Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi again, Ken & Robert - > > In a message dated 3/31/2011 8:27:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > I also believe that the most > typical meditation taught by the Buddha was an in-tandem one, with > development > of calm and insight occurring together, and a very natural one process, > simple in a way - a matter of being still and merely attentive to what > arises > and ceases, the ebb & flow of experience, a practice that after a while > "just happens". > =================================== Well I am so pleased to have this rare opportunity to disagree with both of you! :-) I think that the noting technique is great, and rather than promoting mentation, it directs the mental focus onto the object of mindfulness if done correctly. Noting can become vague and eventually disappears into the direct sensation of the breathing. I also am a fan of the rising and falling of the abdomen, which is not a technique ever disavowed by the Buddha, only contradicted by the Visuddhimagga. The techniques in the Visuddhimagga, while clearly of the ancients in many cases, are not necessarily the exclusive techniques known or allowed by the Buddha. Abdominal breathing is well known in many practices across the Buddhist world, and has some positive properties I won't go into here. The tips of the nostrils as the chosen focus of the Visuddhimagga, to my mind almost surely is a complement to the understanding of yogic pranayama that those practitioners had, and not necessarily the direct influence of the Buddha. I don't see how focusing on the belly's movement with the breath is any more a ritual than focusing on the tip of the nostrils. They are both equally chosen foci. If Ken H. objects to any kind of focus and meditation regimen, as we know he does, and considers them all to be weird new-age interpretations of Buddhism, then he should have the same derisive opinion of the many specific techniques promulgated in the Visuddhimagga, which are no more nor more less ritualistic than any of the "weird" rituals that Ken H. objects to. In sum, Ken H. objects to *all* Buddhist practice and thinks it is all weird and incorrect and all ritual in the sense that it doesn't appear to happen all by itself without something being done or practiced. So there is not a drop of practice, including those specifically considered kusala by the Buddha, that Ken H. will not frown upon and consider a weird new-age ritual. Buddha's own interpretations of his own teachings appear in that light to also be a weird misinterpretation of Buddhism, so I don't think there's any hope of understanding there. I also do not see the practice of noting as non-Buddhist, strange or unusual or ritualistic in any way. It is merely a practice of training the attention to follow the breath, and in fact it is so close a cousin to the "counting breaths" technique recommended and taught in details in the Visuddhimagga as to be indistinguishable in type, and only slightly different in specific technique. So I think it is part of the ancient tradition collected by Buddhaghosa from the beginnings of Buddhism to use one form of noting or another to direct the mind towards the object of mindfulness, in this case the breath. Nothing new or radical or unusual about it at all. If one finds it distracting and agitating the production of thought then of course it is probably not a suitable technique for that person, but nothing wrong with it in principle. Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga shows a clear path from counting breaths to slightly more ambitious ways of following the breath up to the point where mindfulness of breathing is fully established. These are nothing but expedient skillful means and nothing more, and there is not much more that needs to be said about them. These techniques are generally abandoned when they are no longer needed, like training wheels on a bicycle. At that point such techniques would just be annoying, and I'm sure, Howard, that they are jarring because you are at a point of refinement of awareness where they are not really appropriate. Getting back to Ken H. and his view of ritualism, however, there is a clear technical path in the Buddha's four tetrads of the anapanasati sutta, which is a progression from one level of skill and understanding to the next, culminating in full enlightenment. There is a clear path of progressive techniques of mindfulness and the cultivation of the other enlightenment factors in the Visuddhimagga, which many here deeply respect, because Buddhaghosa is seen to have had a deep understanding of Dhamma. Yet Ken H. will not learn from Buddhaghosa or from the practice sequences given by the Buddha, but uses his own individual self-view to cast aside any forms of teaching that he disagrees with. He won't accept the practice progressions that Buddhaghosa describes positively in great detail, nor those of the Buddha. What can we do to help Ken H. and free him from his ritual of pure experience? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114327 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:59 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > If we could just understand *this present moment* (how there are only impersonal dhammas arising and falling away) our problems would be solved. We could pack up and go home. :-) > > But, for various reasons, some people (and all of us at times) fail to understand. And so we find ourselves thinking of the Dhamma as a conventional set of instructions. (!) > > It's a terrible shame that would be. Phil would call it "spitting in the Buddha's face." :-) Apparently one man's spit is another man's shower. I also consider it "spitting in the face of the Buddha," if one wants to personalize their own views to that extent, to ignore and even deride the full range of the Buddha's teachings, as you like to do. Buddha gave not one but any number of instructional talks on anapanasati, satipatthana, jhana and other forms of meditative development. The fact that you have made up a story about these suttas to claim that they are just accidental descriptions that the Buddha happened to repeat over and over again is not convincing, and it does mean that you are throwing half of his teachings out the window. I would think that everyone should be cautious about accusing others of spitting in the Buddha's face or anything like that. A strong wind of Dhamma may rise up and blow your intention back in your direction. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114328 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Tobert (and Ken) - In a message dated 3/31/2011 10:52:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Well I am so pleased to have this rare opportunity to disagree with both of you! :-) ============================= Excellent! :-) With much metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114329 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems again epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Maybe we can say that the medical/psychological/best friend saying "stop it!" efforts to save him are not about Dhamma at all and only understanding dhammas is about Dhamma, and that is our topic at DSG and you might be right. > > Metta, > Phil > p.s I vowed not to discuss conventional morality any more, another vow bites the dust :) Why have a vow that limits your discussion or areas of understanding? What is important is to know what is conceptual and understand it as such, and what is direct and actual and understand it as such. It is not necessary to refrain from talking about concepts, and that would not even be possible when dealing with worldly activities and communications. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114330 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi again, Robert (and Ken) - In a message dated 3/31/2011 10:52:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: I don't see how focusing on the belly's movement with the breath is any more a ritual than focusing on the tip of the nostrils. ================================ I didn't speak of the Mahasi style of meditating as "ritual". Ken did. (I disagree entirely with Ken's perspective on what the Buddha was referring to in speaking of ritual.) What I did say was " I'm no fan of Mahasi-style observing of the belly-movement and mentally labeling everything either. I also gave that up years ago. I consider the process to be overly formal and the labeling to be thinking, not meditating - at best, a "contemplation" of sorts." And, yes, that is my view of it. So, we differ on that. That's okay. :-) [As an aside, you might be interested to know that Bhante Gunaratana also frowns on labeling. That, of course, doesn't invalidate it. It only shows that frowning on it isn't an oddity.] With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114331 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - I suppose I thought that Tobert is a weird cousin of yours! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/31/2011 11:04:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, Tobert (and Ken) - #114332 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:11 pm Subject: Re: just joining the posting group kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, jacob douglas wrote: > > Dear "Moderators" > > I have just received a reply email , i'm assuming resulting from the attempt to send a message to your posting group earlier today. I am unfamilier with communicating through a blogging system such as this exactly and it seems it may take a bit of catching up to do to grasp the details of make use of this communication and learning system for my own benifit more easily. > For now, I am writing from a cafe in downtown mae sariang , thailand , where i have scooted away from the monastery in the rural area for the afternoon, <. . .> Hi Jacob, Thanks for introducing yourself. I am not one of the moderators, but welcome from me to DSG. --- > J: the conceptual study of paramatta dhammas and being wise about developing supportive conditions for the arising of Sati and Panna is the most fundamentally valuable form of learning , or thing that i can engage in, and am glad to do so. --- Well said! If I have understood you correctly I agree entirely. But whether I have understood you correctly or not, welcome again to DSG. :-) Ken H #114333 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi again, Robert (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 3/31/2011 10:52:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > I don't see how focusing on the belly's movement with the breath is any > more a ritual than focusing on the tip of the nostrils. > ================================ > I didn't speak of the Mahasi style of meditating as "ritual". Ken did. > (I disagree entirely with Ken's perspective on what the Buddha was > referring to in speaking of ritual.) I think this was part of my rant that was directed to Ken H., but not 100% sure... > What I did say was " I'm no fan of > Mahasi-style observing of the belly-movement and mentally labeling everything either. > I also gave that up years ago. I consider the process to be overly formal > and the labeling to be thinking, not meditating - at best, a > "contemplation" of sorts." And, yes, that is my view of it. That part I was clear about. > So, we differ on that. > That's > okay. :-) Yes, and it is always fun. It's good practice! > [As an aside, you might be interested to know that Bhante > Gunaratana also frowns on labeling. That, of course, doesn't invalidate it. It > only shows that frowning on it isn't an oddity.] Yes, the labelers and the non-labelers are pretty well divided, I think. I'm one of those people who likes everything - I like labeling, non-labeling, and sweeping/scanning. But I can't decide whether I want ketchup with it or not. :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114334 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > I suppose I thought that Tobert is a weird cousin of yours! ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard Yeah, I was a little surprised that you knew ol' cousin Tobert. He is a pretty strange fellow and we haven't seen him in quite a while. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 12:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] just joining the posting group nilovg Dear Jacob, Welcome here, I am so glad you made it. Op 31-mrt-2011, om 15:07 heeft jacob douglas het volgende geschreven: > For now it may suffice to just briefly state that I am a 26 yr old > male person who has decided that the conceptual study of paramatta > dhammas and being wise about developing supportive conditions for > the arising of Sati and Panna is the most fundamentally valuable > form of learning , or thing that i can engage in, and am glad to do > so. ----- N: I appreciate your enthusiasm for study. I agree with you about the most valuable form of learning. Gradually we can learn that the Abhidhamma is not theory and that each page points to the present moment. It is not abstract. I am glad to receive here on this list many reminders not to be forgetful of the present dhamma appearing through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind-door. Ken H who answered your post is constantly reminding us of this truth. Best wishes, Nina. #114336 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 12:53 am Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Robert E and Howard, ----- <. . .> > RE: If Ken H. objects to any kind of focus and meditation regimen, as we know he does, and considers them all to be weird new-age interpretations of Buddhism, then he should have the same derisive opinion of the many specific techniques promulgated in the Visuddhimagga, which are no more nor more less ritualistic than any of the "weird" rituals that Ken H. objects to. ----- KH: I don't object to any "method" described in the Vis., or in the Tipitaka. I am very much in favour of them. Stream-entry, for example, is a really, really good one to practice. :-) The difference between us is that I believe these practices are conditioned dhammas. I don't believe they are things that can be controlled in any way. You, on the other hand, do believe in formal practices. So why don't you enter the Stream? Why don't you experience nibbana? What have you got against that particular practice? ------------------------ > RE: In sum, Ken H. objects to *all* Buddhist practice and thinks it is all weird and incorrect and all ritual in the sense that it doesn't appear to happen all by itself without something being done or practiced. So there is not a drop of practice, including those specifically considered kusala by the Buddha, that Ken H. will not frown upon and consider a weird new-age ritual. ------------------------- KH: Perhaps my language was too constrained on that occasion. I prefer to call formal meditation a lamentable parody. ----------------------------------- > RE: Buddha's own interpretations of his own teachings appear in that light to also be a weird misinterpretation of Buddhism, so I don't think there's any hope of understanding there. ----------------------------------- KH: For as long as Dhamma discussions continue there will still be hope. Little by little there will be the realisation that there are only dhammas - no self. ----------------------------------------- > RE: I also do not see the practice of noting as non-Buddhist, strange or unusual or ritualistic in any way. It is merely a practice of training the attention to follow the breath, and in fact it is so close a cousin to the "counting breaths" technique recommended and taught in details in the Visuddhimagga as to be indistinguishable in type, and only slightly different in specific technique. ----------------------------------------- KH: Breath counting is a practice that has been recommended in certain cases for beginner jhana practitioners. Anyone who can be called a jhana practitioner - of any kind - is a rare individual of great merit. If the cap fits wear it. Otherwise, don't indulge in lamentable parodies. "Noting" on the other hand is a modern-day vipassana ritual. It is not mentioned anywhere in either the Tipitaka or the Vism. It misses the point that only dhammas are anicca dukkha and anatta. Only dhammas are momentary phenomena that rise and fall in accordance with conditions. Things that can be "noted" are concepts, not dhammas. ---------------------- > RE: So I think it is part of the ancient tradition collected by Buddhaghosa from the beginnings of Buddhism to use one form of noting or another to direct the mind towards the object of mindfulness, in this case the breath. Nothing new or radical or unusual about it at all. If one finds it distracting and agitating the production of thought then of course it is probably not a suitable technique for that person, but nothing wrong with it in principle. Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga shows a clear path from counting breaths to slightly more ambitious ways of following the breath up to the point where mindfulness of breathing is fully established. These are nothing but expedient skillful means and nothing more, and there is not much more that needs to be said about them. These techniques are generally abandoned when they are no longer needed, like training wheels on a bicycle. At that point such techniques would just be annoying, and I'm sure, Howard, that they are jarring because you are at a point of refinement of awareness where they are not really appropriate. Getting back to Ken H. and his view of ritualism, however, there is a clear technical path in the Buddha's four tetrads of the anapanasati sutta, which is a progression from one level of skill and understanding to the next, culminating in full enlightenment. There is a clear path of progressive techniques of mindfulness and the cultivation of the other enlightenment factors in the Visuddhimagga, which many here deeply respect, because Buddhaghosa is seen to have had a deep understanding of Dhamma. Yet Ken H. will not learn from Buddhaghosa or from the practice sequences given by the Buddha, but uses his own individual self-view to cast aside any forms of teaching that he disagrees with. He won't accept the practice progressions that Buddhaghosa describes positively in great detail, nor those of the Buddha. What can we do to help Ken H. and free him from his ritual of pure experience? ------------------ KH: An important topic of Dhamma discussion is, "What is the Path, and what is not the Path?" That's all I'm talking about here. I am not interested in personal attacks. I am happy to keep discussing it for as long as anyone else is. What more topic can there be at this stage? Ken H #114337 From: "philip" Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:56 pm Subject: Tanha bhava vs. aggregates of clinging vs. lobha (Jon) philofillet Hi Jon I sense you only are able to find time to post occasionally but I will ask a question and whenever you have time for a few thoughts , no hurry. Yesterday I heard a discussion on tanha bhava, you were having trouble understanding how it could be arising all thetime, even when we are not aware of it, which I think is what A. Sujin was saying. Could I ask you to share what your current thoughts are on that, and on how tanha bhava differs from clinging to khandas or just plain lobha. Actually, I will add what is the difference between tanha bhava, uppatanha khandas ( I think that is what I heard, aggregates of clinging?) and just plain lobha. Thanks. This will be my last question until I have properly read and reflected on the other answers I received from others. Metta, Phil #114338 From: "philip" Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems again philofillet Hi Rob E > Why have a vow that limits your discussion or areas of understanding? Time limitations, especially now that I am back to work after a two week Armageddon holiday. I'm very confident in my understanding of conventional morality (as defined by precepts and akusala kamma patha, keeping the former and avoiding the latter) but there is still a lot of attachment to it so I tend to sermonize too much. Wanna ask questions about subtler points related to satipatthana. Yes, at a refined level satipatthana is about sila and sila is about satipatthana, but those who say that every word of the Buddha's teaching is about satipatthana are wrong in my strongly held opinion. But they have their strong opinions on that too, and I don't want to debate for now, as usual, no time to do it properly, I admire those of you who do take time to work out points of contention, very admirable, but just ain't me. Metta, Phil #114339 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:36 pm Subject: Patience is the Highest Praxis! bhikkhu5 Friends: Patience is the 6th Perfection: The characteristic of patience is acceptance, its function is to endure, and its manifestation is non-opposing tolerance! The cause of patience is understanding how things really are.. The effect of patience is calm tranquility despite presence of intensely stirring provocation.. Patience of the will produces forgiving forbearance! Patience of the intellect produces faith, confidence and certainty! Patience of the body produces resolute and tenacious endurance! Internal tolerance of states within oneself is patient endurance... External tolerance of other beings is forbearance and forgiveness... He who patiently protects himself, protects also all other beings! He who patiently protects all other beings, protects also himself! Not from speaking much is one called clever. The patient one is free from anger and free from fear, only such steady persisting one, is rightly called clever... Dhammapada 258 Patient tolerance is the highest praxis... Nibbna is the supreme Bliss! So say all the Buddhas. Dhammapada 184 The innocent one, who has done nothing wrong, Who endures abuse, flogging and even imprisonment, Such one, armed with stamina, the great force of tolerance, Such stoic one, who self-possessed can accept, I call a Holy One! Dhammapada 399 One should follow those who are determined, tolerant, and enduring, intelligent, wise, diligent, clever, good-willed and evidently Noble. One shall stick to them as the moon remains in its regular orbit. Dhammapada 208 Friends, even if bandits were to cut you up, savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, you should not get angry, but do my bidding: Remain pervading them and all others with a friendly Awareness imbued with an all-embracing good-will, kind, rich, expansive, and immeasurable! Free from hostility, free from any ill will. Always remembering this very Simile of the Saw is indeed how you should train yourselves. Majjhima Nikya 21 The five ways of removing irritating annoyance: Bhikkhus, there are these five ways of removing annoyance, by which any irritation can be entirely removed by a Bhikkhu, when it arises in him. What are these five ways? 1: Friendliness can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. 2: Understanding can be undertaken towards an irritating person or state.. 3: On-looking Equanimity can be kept towards an irritating person or state.. 4: One can forget and ignore the irritating person, mental or physical state.. 5: Ownership of Kamma of the irritating person can be reflected upon thus: This good person is owner of his actions, inherit the result his actions, is indeed born of his actions and only he is responsible for his actions be they good or bad. This too is how annoyance with the irksome can be instantly removed. These are the five ways of removing annoyance, and by which any irritation can be entirely removed in a friend, exactly when it arises... A nguttara Nikya V 161 Buddha to his son Rhula : Develop an Imperturbable Mind like the elements: Rhula, develop a mind like earth, then contacts of arisen like and dislike will not obsess your mind! Rhula, on the earth is dumped both the pure and the impure: excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, but the earth does not detest any of those... Even and exactly so make your mind stable like the earth! Rhula, develop a mind like water, then contacts of arisen pleasure and pain will not seize your mind. Rhula with water both the pure and the impure are cleaned... Washed away with water are excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood, yet the water does not despise any of that! Even so make the mind fluid and adaptable like the water! Rhula, develop a mind like fire, then the contacts of any arisen attraction or aversion will neither consume, nor hang on to your mind! Rhula, fire burns both the pure and the impure, burns excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood, yet the fire does not loathe any of that.. In the same manner refine the mind into a tool like an all consuming and purifying fire! Rhula, develop a mind similar to space, then contacts of arisen delight and frustration does neither take hold of, nor remain in your mind. Space does not settle anywhere! Similarly make the mind unsettled and unestablished like open space. When you expand mind like space, contacts of delight and frustration will neither be able to dominate, nor obsess your mind... Majjhima Nikya 62 More on the 10 mental perfections (paramis): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/The_Ten_Perfections.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #114340 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 1:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hearing a waterfall (Nina) nilovg Dear Philip, Op 30-mrt-2011, om 17:21 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > ...In Thailand I asked if all the rupas in Khun D D's lovely garden > were different from the rupas in noisy dirty Bangkok city center, > it had seemed to me thst rupa was rupa at a fundamental level, with > no difference but no of course that couldn't be. So the smell of a > flower is not a concept, it is a reality? > ------- N: Smell is a reality and it is experienced through the nose by smelling-consciousness. Through the mind-door it is known later on what kind of smell it is. This does not mean that that particular smell is not experienced by smelling-consciousness that does not know what type of smell it is. ------- > Ph: The soft voice of the mother I heard speak to a child in the > supermarket tonight which sounded so tender to me, that tender > voice is not a concept, it is a reality? And yet there is no being > producing the tender voice that is a reality? it is difficult to > understand but not to worry, now I am better understanding rupa has > qualitative differences, even hardness can be coarse or subtle... > ------- N: Different sounds, harsh or soft. Knowing that it is a voice is cognized later on through the mind-door. Hearing experiences different sounds but it does not think or define. ------- Ph: A follow up. 1) Sound is not in the kalapa of 8 rupa that always arise, right? So is sound a rupa or a combination of other rupas? ------ N: When sound arises it is always in a kalapa of at least eight ruupas that accompany it. It never arises alone. When it is speech sound, there is also the ruupa that is specch intimation. For speech sound to be fluent it also needs the three vikara ruupas of lightness, plasticity and wieldiness. See Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, p. 33 and p. 446. -------- Ph: 2)Hearing consciousness is always accompanied by neutral feeling so it seems confusing to me that the rupa that is or makes up sound can have pleasant or unpleasant aspect such as gentle or harsh, wouldn't that immediately condition pleasant or unpleasant feeling. Those only come through the mind door cittas that follow? ----- N: Hearing is vipaakacitta produced by kamma. It may be kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta depending on the kamma that produces it. It is always accompanied by indifferent feeling. It is only vipaaka, the passive side of life, no reaction to the object. The pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling that may arise on account of the sound that was heard arises during the javanacittas and these arise in that same sense-door process and the following mind-door process of cittas experiencing that sound. Afterwards there are other processes through the mind-door that know the source of the sound etc. Thus, we have to differentiate between the moments of vipaaka and the moments with lobha or dosa. Since cittas succeed one another so rapidly it seems that at the moment of seeing there is already pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling, but this is not so. -------- Do not worry about burdening me with questions, it never is a burden, on the contrary. But now I am taking a break for a while and see you later. Nina. > #114341 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 1:47 am Subject: Fwd: earthquake. nilovg Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Van: Nina van Gorkom > Datum: 1 april 2011 10:06:30 GMT+02:00 > Aan: Miyamoto Tadao > Onderwerp: Antw.: earthquake. > > Dear Tadao, > Op 30-mrt-2011, om 10:18 heeft Miyamoto Tadao het volgende geschreven: > >> Khun Sujin often says that everything is for the sake of >> 'renouncement.' >> Most of us are not wise enough to understand the significance of >> 'renunciation.' > ------ > N: She says that the teachings aim at detachment from the beginning > to the end. > It is not easy to detach from all the sense objects, we have > accumulated attachment from life to life. I quote from Khun Sujin's > Perfections about the perfection of renunciation: > <... the perfection of renunciation does not merely mean leaving > the household life and becoming a monk. Renunciation means having > the energy and courage to eliminate the clinging we all have to > visible object, sound and the other sense objects. So long as we > have not attained the excellent state of the non-returner, we have > not eradicated clinging to sense objects. We should know ourselves > as we are, we should know whether we are sincere and have the firm > determination to eliminate the clinging to the five sense objects. > We are, for example, attached to colour, when we look at pictures, > when we find them beautiful and delightful. Generally, when we see > something beautiful, we are likely to have enjoyment and clinging, > lobha. If there is heedfulness, it can be known that at such a > moment this is only a reality, a dhamma, that appears. ... > We read in the Jatuka.n.nim.navapucch, Jatuka.n.ns Questions, > of the Claniddesa, Khuddhaka Nikya: > > (There is) renunciation, nekkhamma (when there is) seeing, seeing > clearly, comparing, considering, developing, so that one clearly > understands the right practice, the proper practice, the practice > that is an enemy, the practice that is beneficial, the practice of > Dhamma according to the Dhamma that leads to purity of sla. > (There is renunciation, when there is) the guarding of the > sensedoors , moderation in eating, the application of energy so > that one is alert and awake, sati sampajaa (sati and pa). > (There is renunciation, when there are) the four applications of > mindfulness, the four right efforts, the four bases of success, the > five spiritual faculties, the five powers, the seven factors of > enlightenment, the eight Path factors 5, nibbna and the practice > leading to nibbna. > (When there is renunciation) with happiness, (there is) resistance, > a refuge, a protection, no danger, unshakableness, the > deathlessness, a dhamma departing from clinging, which is like a > thread that fastens. Having seen(all this), there is renunciation > with happiness. > > It is not easy to see that renunciation means happiness. We should > understand that it must be pa that sees its benefit, that > compares and considers the practice, so that one should follow the > right and proper practice that opposes attachment and clinging to > visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. One > should see the benefit of the practice of Dhamma in accordance with > the Dhamma and develop the thirtyseven factors of enlightenment. > Therefore it must be pa which understands and knows that > renunciation which departs from sense objects is to be achieved by > sati-sampajaa, the thirtyseven factors of enlightenment, the > attainment of nibbna and the practice leading to nibbna, as > stated by the Claniddesa. And all this is practised with > happiness, which means, that one should see the disadvantage and > danger of defilements. One should have an unshakable determination > to develop pa in order to completely eradicate clinging to sense > objects. This has to begin by listening and considering the Dhamma > so that one first sees the benefit of the practice. One should > realize that renunciation means happiness and that this kind of > happiness is without a self who seeks enjoyment. We should > understand that detachment from the sense objects leads to the > highest calm and wellbeing.> > (end quote) > > We read in the Vibha.nga, the Book of Analysis (Ch 3, 86) that all > kusala dhammas are the element of renunciation (nekhamma dhaatu). > This is true. When we are helping someone else there is a degree of > renunciation, we renounce at that moment our own comfort and > pleasure. Above all through awareness of naama and ruupa we learn > that the pleasant objects we experience are only conditioned > dhammas, that these do not belong to us. > ---------- > >> T: I feel that one's life is like a balloon. When there is no air >> (i.e., support of kamma), >> it perishes so easily. > ------ > N: A good way of expressing how fragile life is. Out there in > Sendai you have received pertinent reminders of this, having lost > friends and, I am sure, many of your students. > This reminds me of Kh Sujin's Perfections, Ch 4, the Perfection of > Wisdom: > < Through the study of the Dhamma we gradually come to have more > understanding of the vicissitudes of the world, of gain and loss, > honour and dishonour, praise and blame, wellbeing and pain. We > shall understand that the pleasant worldly conditions of gain, > honour, praise and wellbeing only lead to dukkha, suffering, if > there is no pa that knows the causes and their appropriate > results in life....Thus, we should see the incomparable value of > pa and we should apply ourselves to its development so that it > can become fully accomplished. If we develop satipa.t.thna time > and again, pa will be gradually accumulated so that it becomes > keener, and reaches the degree of a perfection which realizes the > four noble Truths. > We read in the Khuddhaka Nikya in the Commentary to the Basket > of Conduct, the Conduct of Yudajaya, about the beginning of the > development of pa during the life the Bodhisatta was young > Yudajaya : > > In his life when the Bodhisatta was Yudajaya, he was the eldest > son of the King and had the rank of the viceroy. He fulfilled every > day mah-dna, the giving of an abundance of gifts. One day when he > visited the royal park he saw the dewdrops hanging like a string of > pearls on the tree-tops, the grass-tips, the end of the branches > and on the spiders webs. > The prince enjoyed himself in the royal park and when the sun rose > higher all the dewdrops that were hanging there disintegrated and > disappeared. He reflected thus: These dewdrops came into being and > then disappeared. Evenso are conditioned realities, the lives of > all beings; they are like the dewdrops hanging on the grass-tips. > He felt a sense of urgency and became disenchanted with worldly > life, so that he took leave of his parents and became a recluse... > The Bodhisatta realized the impermanence of the dewdrops and made > this predominant in accumulating a sense of urgency and > disenchantment; it arose once and then became a condition leading > to its arising very often. > (end quote) > --------- > Nina. #114342 From: "antony272b2" Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 2:50 am Subject: Re: Self-view & Computer Rage antony272b2 Hi Sarah, So it's not just a binary decision whether or not to do the keystroke but the intention can be frustrated if there is not sufficient degree of resolve to move the body? And does the teaching on dukkha mean that operating the keyboard and mouse is literally painful? Thanks / Antony. > #114343 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- On Wed, 30/3/11, han tun wrote: >>[Sarah]: No, not wrong, but as I understand, Di.t.thadhamma-vedaniya kamma on its own is not strong enough to cause birth, sense experiencing, sensense bases, heart-base, masculinity/femininity and so on, but it must be able to give support/obstruction and have an effect in this life-time. Also, even if there is no result, the accumulation of kamma is never 'lost'. ----------- >[Han]: I admit that Di.t.thadhamma-vedaniya kamma is the weakest among the kammas in its group. >But it should not be mixed up with reproductive, supportive, obstructive and destructive kammas, because they belong to different groups. ... S: That's a good point and I appreciate your detailed message. I think that D.O. is concerned with the cycles of birth and death - primarily with ignorance leading to kamma which brings about rebirth and all subsequent vipaka leading to further accumulated defilements in particular, further kamma, further rebirths, on and on. It is not di.t.thadhamma-vedaniya kamma which can condition rebirth - as you say, it can bring about results during the same life only. ==================== >>[Sarah]: Yes, as classified, vi~n~naa.na is included as "effect" (phala) in both cases. >[Han] You are insisting that Vi~n~naa.na cannot condition the arising of Naama-ruupa in Dependent Origination step (3) Vi~n~naa.na paccaya Naama-ruupa, because vi~n~naa.na is an effect (phala) in both the cases in the Twenty Modes of DO. .... S: On the contrary, I'm "insisting"(!!) that vi~n~naa.na does condition naama-ruupa in D.O. "step (3)", even though they are all conditioned by kama. We discussed this before with regard to your earlier discussion with Howard. Ken O quoted the following: "22. Therefore Ananda, this is the cause .... and condition for consciousness, namely, mentality - materiality Comy - (Mentality - Materiality is a condition for consciousness) in the way a king's offcers, restraining the king might say "Who was it made you king?" Didn't we do so? If you could become king alone, without one of us occupying the position of viceroy, another the position of general, then we would see what kind of king you are." In the same way, as it were, mentality- materiality might say to consciousness: "Who is it that make you the rebirth-linking consciousness? Didn't we do so? If you could become a rebirth-linking consciousness without the support of the other three mental aggregates and the heart-basis, then we would see what kind of rebirth-linking consciousness you are." Mentality-Materiality is a condition for consciousness in many ways." S: The converse was also given whereby consciousness is a condition for mentality-materiality (naama-ruupa) just as the kind is responsible for his retinue too. It's a reciprocal arrangement. For more details and a summary of the sub-commentary on the conditions involved, see the appendix to B.Bodhi's translation of the Mahaanidaana Sutta, DN 15,and commentaries which you have a copy of. "with consciousness as condition there is mentality-materiality" "At 'rebirth-linking,' i.e the moment of conception, the rebirth-consciousness arises together with its associated mental factors...... Since consciousness and the other mental phenomena, which belong to 'mentality,' arise and cease simultaneously, consciousness is a condition for mentality as conascence, support, association, presence, and non-disappearace conditions. Since, as conascents, their conditioned efficacy is reciprocal, it is also related to them as a mutuality condition, and as kamma-result condition because they all result from the same previous kamma responsibile for generating rebirth. As the fourth nutriment, consciousness is a nutriment condition for its associated mental factors, and as the mind faculty it is a faculty condition for them. In these ways the nine conditions stated in the sub-commentary are obtained. On any occasion of resultant consciousness following rebirth-linking consciousness is a condition for associated mentality in the same nine ways. "In relation to materiality, the sub-commentary says that at rebirth, consciousness is a condition for the materiality of the heart-basis in nine ways. Eight of these are identical with the aforementioned ways in which consciousness is a condition for mentality, the one difference being the substitution of dissociation condition for association condition. This change is made necessary by the definition of the latter as applying only to conascent mental phenomena and of the former as applying only to co-existent mental and material phenomena. For the other kinds of materiality arising at conception, the rebirth-consciousness is a condition in all the above ways, except mutuality; for though they are conascent, their conditional efficacy with regard to each other is not fully reciprocal. The kammically active consciousness of the previous life responsible for the present rebirth is a condition for the materiality produced by kamma in one way, as a natural decisive support condition." S:The passage then discusses the converse - the ways that mentality-materiality (naama- ruupa) conditions rebirth (and other vipaka) consciousness. In all instances, it is the past-life kamma that is being referred to here. ... >H:That is because you have summarily dismissed my writings on step (3) and on my personal thoughts on the 29 cetanaas. >In Step (3) 32 lokiya vipaaka vi~n~naa.nas condition the arising of 35 cetasikas; and 29 kamma vi~n~naa.nas condition the arising of 18 kammaja-ruupas. >The "kamma vi~n~naa.na" is the name of the 29 cetanaas of the present life (in step 3); whereas "sa"nkhaara" is the name of the same 29 cetanaas of the past life (in steps 1 and 2). This same 29 cetanaas will assume yet another name in the later part of the present life as "kamma-bhava" (in steps 9 and 10). .... S: I haven't dismissed any of your writings, but in the context of the cycle of birth and death, I understand sa"nkhaara to refer to past kamma which brings its effects in this life and kamma-bhava to refer to kamma in this life which will bring its effects in future lives (unless there is an end to the cycle through the complete eradication of defilements). As I've said, I'll look forward to seeing a commentarial reference to vi~n~naa.na referring to kamma in this context. I'll consider your reasoning and keep an open mind meanwhile. I really appreciate all your research in this and other threads. Metta Sarah ====== #114344 From: "c7carl" Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristics of cittas? c7carl Nina wrote....... > As to neuroscience, this is a different field. Abhidhamma has the > aim of detachment from the idea of self. We learn that there are > only conditioned dhammas, no self. There is no doer. Does > neuroscience have this aim? I think it is hard to compare the two. > Nina. Dear Nina, forgive me. I am not a neuroscientist, nor am I an Abhidhammist. I am a lay Theravada Buddhist and a Grandfather. I am only speaking in conventional terms. Neuroscience is not looking to find a self, a doer, an "I". Neuroscience only collects cold data from the bio-chemical processes it studies. So far, it appears that the human condition is empty of any evidence of an "I". It may be that neuroscience will in fact demonstrate that the concept of an individual "I", "me", "mine" is not correct. Yep! Nobody home! Sensory data arrives. Mind, Body, Speech, reacts. Finally, I have to ponder the parallel processing that Tim mentions. What prevents more than one sense door arising to the occasion? Thanks Carl #114345 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is akusala gone never to return? sarahprocter... Hi Phil, I think you're asking great qus - just as you did in Thailand. --- On Mon, 28/3/11, philip wrote: >> S: And if the "garbage" is seen as just more conditioned dhammas, not belonging to anyone, it's even more helpful - just dhammas which arise and then - gone, never to return! .... >Ph: I must say I still don't quite understand this "gone, never to return" which I hear a lot in different forms. Akusala javanas accumulate, so it seems to me it can't say they are gone, and any akusala kamma patha is sure to bring its result in the form of unpleasant vipaka in this life or liftimes to come, so in a sense it will retun in the form of a related vipaka. So in the case of accumulation I don't see how it can be said to be "gone" and in the case of kamma conditioning vipaka I don't see how it can be said to "never return." .... S: Good points. What it means is that, in spite of any accumulation of tendencies, in spite of any future kamma patha or vipaka, there is only the citta arising now, experiencing its object. There is only ever one world at a time - one experience through one door-way. We talk a lot about nimitta, about concepts and realities and so on, but the Teachings are all to help develop the understanding to get closer and closer to the present reality appearing because this is the only way that the ti-lakkhana of these realities can be directly known. It is the only way that the 4 Noble Truths can be realised too. If there is strong greed or hatred now, for example, it is only the understanding of such dhammas as anatta at the present moment that will really know the danger of such tendencies. This is not by being concerned about the future results that might befall an imaginary "Me", but by understanding the harm of such dhammas and the absurdity of clinging to and being angry at impermanent dhammas, such as experiences through the sense doors which are conditioned by kamma in any case! Therefore, I believe that all the teachings, including those about hell planes, bring us back to the present moment and the understanding of dhammas now appearing as anatta. Without a growing understanding of present dhammas, there will never be an understanding of kamma and its results and we'll continue to just have ideas about them in terms of conventional situations. ... >P: I'm not saying that we should fret about akusala, I don't (although I might give the impression that I do), .... S: (Interrupting) We all fret at times - usually about the dosa rather than the lobha or moha, of course - this is because it's taken for "my akusala" and because there is aversion to the unpleasant feeling with the dosa... .... >P: but saying it is "gone, never to return" feels akin to some kind of wrong view. Can we really say akusala is gone, never to return? ... S: Each citta has gone completely. It's the truth! The akusala that has gone may be a condition for what arises now or what may arise in future and the tendencies are all accumulated. Even so, the akusala citta that arose has gone completely and there's no use fretting about it. .... >P: My understanding can't go there, for my understanding tells me deeds bring results, so it can't be said they are gone. But keeping an open mind and listening, listening, listening! ... S: The deeds have gone, the results haven't come, but there can be the development of understanding at this moment - of what appears now! This is the only way that an understanding of dhammas as anatta can develop, leading to more and more detachment from what is experienced. It is the only liberating path! I'll be glad to hear your further reflections - no hurry, of course. Metta Sarah ====== #114346 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/1/2011 12:37:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: But I can't decide whether I want ketchup with it or not. :-) =============================== Now we first have a problem!!! > : ( With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114347 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristics of cittas? nilovg Dear Carl, thanks for your observations. I am just taking a break. Very shortly I shall add something. Op 1-apr-2011, om 12:16 heeft c7carl het volgende geschreven: > So far, it appears that the human condition is empty of any > evidence of an "I". It may be that neuroscience will in fact > demonstrate that the concept of an individual "I", "me", "mine" is > not correct. Yep! Nobody home! ----- N: Only the Buddha taught anattaa and the way to penetrate to this truth. ------ > > Sensory data arrives. Mind, Body, Speech, reacts. > > Finally, I have to ponder the parallel processing that Tim > mentions. What prevents more than one sense door arising to the > occasion? ----- N: Each citta experiences only one object at a time through one sense- door at a time. See you later, Nina. #114348 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 7:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) nilovg Hi Howard, Not sure I can add something helpful to this discussion. Op 29-mrt-2011, om 5:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > With regard to the question, in general there are many cases of kamma > that produces rupa. An everyday example is any intentional moving of a > body part. (Motion is "the air" element, a type of rupa.) -------- N: I understand why you think that when moving of a body part kamma produces ruupa. You think of cetanaa accompanying each citta. However, it is citta-produced ruupa, actually citta and accompanying cetasikas (including cetanaa) play their part in moving. When speaking of kamma-produced ruupa, these are very special ruupas produced by past kamma, such as eyesense and the other senses. It is through the senses that vipaakacittas such as seeing or hearing can experience the relevant ruupas. Thus we lead our life experiencing pleasant and unpleasant objects through the senses. Kamma caused birth in the human plane where we can experience sense objects. Han gave you all the details of the ruupas produced by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. And also the details of the cittas that produce ruupas. Nina. #114349 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 29-mrt-2011, om 22:37 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I guess one who had enough faith, who would just hear an example > and get the idea and then fully resolve that there was no self > involved, might not need all the details and all the examples to > bring the point home. That might explain some of the sudden > awakenings that are reported in the suttas. ------- N: Awakening not without the right cause: developing understanding of naama and ruupa from life to life. In that way the right conditions were accumulated so that enlightenment could occur. Nina. #114350 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/1/2011 10:15:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Not sure I can add something helpful to this discussion. Op 29-mrt-2011, om 5:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > With regard to the question, in general there are many cases of kamma > that produces rupa. An everyday example is any intentional moving of a > body part. (Motion is "the air" element, a type of rupa.) -------- N: I understand why you think that when moving of a body part kamma produces ruupa. You think of cetanaa accompanying each citta. However, it is citta-produced ruupa, actually citta and accompanying cetasikas (including cetanaa) play their part in moving. When speaking of kamma-produced ruupa, these are very special ruupas produced by past kamma, such as eyesense and the other senses. It is through the senses that vipaakacittas such as seeing or hearing can experience the relevant ruupas. Thus we lead our life experiencing pleasant and unpleasant objects through the senses. Kamma caused birth in the human plane where we can experience sense objects. Han gave you all the details of the ruupas produced by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. And also the details of the cittas that produce ruupas. Nina. ================================ Thank you for this comment, Nina. At first I thought I understood the distinction you are making here, but as I think about it further I am not so certain. The citta-produced air element that is involved in what we call "the movement of a body part" does have volition as a condition, does it not? That is: The movement does have volition as one condition, does it not? If I desire to walk to somewhere and lift my foot, is not volition an essential condition in the production of that air element, and is not that volition kamma? (As you write above, "actually citta and accompanying cetasikas (INCLUDING CETANAA) play their part in moving." (The capitalization was added by me, of course, for emphasis.) Do we reserve the terminology of "kamma-produced rupa" only for cases of the volition being somewhat far back in time? Is that the distinction? (Otherwise, if volition is a condition for a rupa, why would that rupa not be called "kamma-produced"?) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114351 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 8:45 am Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E and Howard, > > ----- > <. . .> > > RE: If Ken H. objects to any kind of focus and meditation regimen, as we know > he does, and considers them all to be weird new-age interpretations of Buddhism, then he should have the same derisive opinion of the many specific techniques promulgated in the Visuddhimagga, which are no more nor more less ritualistic than any of the "weird" rituals that Ken H. objects to. > ----- > > KH: I don't object to any "method" described in the Vis., or in the Tipitaka. I am very much in favour of them. Stream-entry, for example, is a really, really good one to practice. :-) You can't jump into the stream without a raft. That's why the Buddha bothered to turn up in the first place, for our benefit. He wasn't "just talk." He had a method. > The difference between us is that I believe these practices are conditioned dhammas. I don't believe they are things that can be controlled in any way. You, on the other hand, do believe in formal practices. I don't believe they are formal at all, because, like everything else in life, it cannot be controlled or dictated. However, although I don't believe you can control anything, I *do* think we find ourselves *doing* things. Practice means doing. You clearly don't believe in a universe in which any form of action takes place, period. You believe that the only things that exist are experiential dhammas and you clearly take the position in the sutta about "crossing the flood" of the person who refrains from action. You are not in the middle way in doing this, you are on the far side of passivity. Buddha did not say to resist practice or to refrain from doing anything. He said to let go of the illusion of control and personhood. There is a fine distinction to consider there, Ken, between refraining from action and refraining from self-concept. They are *not* the same thing. One can practice as the Buddha taught without the illusion of control. They do not automatically go together. > So why don't you enter the Stream? Why don't you experience nibbana? What have you got against that particular practice? I plan to do so this afternoon. After that I'm going to swim to the moon and toast marshmallows on the sun. > ------------------------ > > RE: In sum, Ken H. objects > to *all* Buddhist practice and thinks it is all weird and incorrect and all > ritual in the sense that it doesn't appear to happen all by itself without > something being done or practiced. So there is not a drop of practice, > including those specifically considered kusala by the Buddha, that Ken H. will > not frown upon and consider a weird new-age ritual. > ------------------------- > > KH: Perhaps my language was too constrained on that occasion. I prefer to call formal meditation a lamentable parody. How about all the specific sequences of practice, meditation, action and conduct that the Buddha taught, which is recorded in thousands of pages of teaching. Do you think these teachings of the Buddha as to how and what to practice, how and in what ways a householder or a monk should behave in every specific area of life, all constituted an equally lamentable parody? Do you jeer at all of these instructions, rules and dictates of the Buddha? > ----------------------------------- > > RE: Buddha's own > interpretations of his own teachings appear in that light to also be a weird > misinterpretation of Buddhism, so I don't think there's any hope of > understanding there. > ----------------------------------- > > KH: For as long as Dhamma discussions continue there will still be hope. Little by little there will be the realisation that there are only dhammas - no self. But the question is, will you ever understand what that means or implies, and why the Buddha made a point of teaching meticulously worked-out rules of conduct, even despite the fact that there are "only dhammas?" Maybe you know that sentence, but don't know what kinds of experiences are actually included within "only dhammas." Maybe your understanding of what dhammas are is not the same as the Buddha's. Otherwise, why did he say all those things? Why did he insist on certain kinds of behavior? Why did he say to refrain from alcohol consumption? Why did he say that anapanasati if followed through diligently will lead to the 7 factors of enlightenment, fully knowing that this was a form of "formal practice" as you like to call it. Why did Buddha say to develop concentration and mindfulness with unflinching diligent effort, and that those who did not commit such effort would not reach enlightenment? Can you explain any of this in terms of your own understanding of realities? > ----------------------------------------- > > RE: I also do not see the practice of noting as non-Buddhist, strange or unusual or > ritualistic in any way. It is merely a practice of training the attention to > follow the breath, and in fact it is so close a cousin to the "counting breaths" > technique recommended and taught in details in the Visuddhimagga as to be > indistinguishable in type, and only slightly different in specific technique. > ----------------------------------------- > > KH: Breath counting is a practice that has been recommended in certain cases for beginner jhana practitioners. Anyone who can be called a jhana practitioner - of any kind - is a rare individual of great merit. Who said that? Who said it was only for jhana practitioners? It doesn't say that in the Vism. There it says that one beginning work with concentration on the breath. You always invent some high bar that is not even in the texts in order to justify your rarified view. In any case, even if what you say is true, it still means that a specific practice is being recommended for *someone* on the path, and it is a *formal practice* at that. Jhana practitioner or no, highly established or no, how can you possibly justify that person engaging in a recommended *formal practice,* while saying other practices are bad or contain self-view? Please explain. In addition, the counting of the breath is just the beginning of an entire series of planned and graded breathing exercises that lead to greater and greater concentration. Assuming this is not for us, and only for advanced jhanis, it is still a formal practice, which if followed, will give thus-and-such a result. And so it opens the door to *all* formal practices that the Buddha might recommend to have a kusala impact on anyone. If that is the case, the only question is what practices are right for what particular individual, no longer a question of formal practices being inherently akusala and subject to self-view. If you skirt around this and don't answer in a meaningful way, I will be very cross and solemn. ;-( > If the cap fits wear it. Otherwise, don't indulge in lamentable parodies. You're in no position to know who wears what cap, and what is correct practice for anyone. If "counting breaths" is so advanced that only the advanced jhani can do it, then I am going to be very careful to get a "special expert" to help me tie my shoes. Your idea of the incredible mountain one must climb to warrant the most simple techniques of the Buddha is the true "lamentable parody." Your understanding of paramatha dhammas is nothing but an excuse for taking it easy. ;-) > "Noting" on the other hand is a modern-day vipassana ritual. It is not mentioned anywhere in either the Tipitaka or the Vism. It misses the point that only dhammas are anicca dukkha and anatta. Only dhammas are momentary phenomena that rise and fall in accordance with conditions. Things that can be "noted" are concepts, not dhammas. The noting is not meant to identify, but to direct. It merely directs the awareness towards the object of attention, the rupas of the rising and falling breath, which are worthy of attention and not conceptual in nature. On the other hand, everyone agrees - except maybe you? - that in samatha cultivation the object is the concept of the breath and it is not necessary to identify specific rupas, so either way, the noting directs the attention adequately and is an expedient means to do so. Your view is both too complex and not practical enough. In addition it is lacking in knowledge of what these things are for - simple devices. > ---------------------- > > RE: So I think it is part of the ancient tradition collected by Buddhaghosa from the > beginnings of Buddhism to use one form of noting or another to direct the mind > towards the object of mindfulness, in this case the breath. Nothing new or > radical or unusual about it at all. If one finds it distracting and agitating > the production of thought then of course it is probably not a suitable technique > for that person, but nothing wrong with it in principle. > > Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga shows a clear path from counting breaths to > slightly more ambitious ways of following the breath up to the point where > mindfulness of breathing is fully established. These are nothing but expedient > skillful means and nothing more, and there is not much more that needs to be > said about them. These techniques are generally abandoned when they are no > longer needed, like training wheels on a bicycle. At that point such techniques > would just be annoying, and I'm sure, Howard, that they are jarring because you > are at a point of refinement of awareness where they are not really appropriate. > > Getting back to Ken H. and his view of ritualism, however, there is a clear > technical path in the Buddha's four tetrads of the anapanasati sutta, which is a > progression from one level of skill and understanding to the next, culminating > in full enlightenment. There is a clear path of progressive techniques of > mindfulness and the cultivation of the other enlightenment factors in the > Visuddhimagga, which many here deeply respect, because Buddhaghosa is seen to > have had a deep understanding of Dhamma. Yet Ken H. will not learn from > Buddhaghosa or from the practice sequences given by the Buddha, but uses his own > individual self-view to cast aside any forms of teaching that he disagrees with. > He won't accept the practice progressions that Buddhaghosa describes positively > in great detail, nor those of the Buddha. What can we do to help Ken H. and > free him from his ritual of pure experience? > ------------------ > > KH: An important topic of Dhamma discussion is, "What is the Path, and what is not the Path?" That's all I'm talking about here. I am not interested in personal attacks. I see. So it is not an attack if you accuse people of being caught in non-Buddhist rituals, or engaging in a parody of Buddhism, or spitting in the Buddha's face? I will try to keep that in mind, Ken H., since you have established such a high standard in that regard. Note to self: Don't insult Ken H., and don't mind if he regularly insults you. Okay, got it! > I am happy to keep discussing it for as long as anyone else is. What more topic can there be at this stage? If you'd be kind enough to answer my questions above, despite my insulting tone - which I guess I could try to drop if you don't like it - I would certainly appreciate it. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #114352 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 8:46 am Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Ken. H. Sorry, left out the attribution on the last copy of this post. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = > > = = = = = = = = > #114353 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 8:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: How do citta and kamma produce rupa ? (Han) epsteinrob Hi Howard, and Nina. . This discussion leads me to two additional questions that may be more simple, and perhaps either you or Nina will be able to answer them: 1. I think I have learned that all kamma is volition or intention, but is all intention and volition kamma, or is there volition/intention that does not produce future vipaka? 2. Does all kamma produce vipaka in the future, or is it possible to sometimes experience the vipaka from a kamma immediately after the kamma takes place? One can sometimes have an experience like think an angry thought and then immediately bump painfully into a wall. That would be a rougher version of the "instant kamma" I am thinking of. Thanks, Robert E. = = = = = = = #114354 From: Vince Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 9:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) cerovzt@... Dear Nina: > When speaking of kamma-produced ruupa, these are very special ruupas > produced by past kamma, such as eyesense and the other senses. It is > through the senses that vipaakacittas such as seeing or hearing can > experience the relevant ruupas. I wonder if colors can be an example on this. When we put a crystal prism in front light and we see the colors (rupas) where before were absent. best, Vince. #114355 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 11:48 am Subject: kamma-produced ruupa nilovg Dear Rob E and Howard, I shall answer your posts later on, Nina. #114356 From: han tun Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bkk - with Han & Phil, Mar 2011 (4): Breakfast Topics hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind explanations and clarifications. I do not wish to dwell on our differences. Actually, there may not be any differences, but it may be due to the wordings, especially for me, whose mother tongue is not English. The main point I am looking for is that in the Dedpendent Origination it is not in one-way direction, but also there can be backward direction. For example, the present causes not only condition the future effects in the future life, but also condition the present effects in the present life. [Other issues such as on vi~n~naa.na are only secondary for me.] If I cannot find anything to support my belief, it will be okay. If I can find something to support my belief, I will be happy. Either way, it is not that important. Respectfully, Han #114357 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 1, 2011 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma-produced ruupa upasaka_howard Thanks, Nina. Take your time. :-) With metta, Howard #114358 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Apr 2, 2011 12:08 am Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ------- <. . .> > > KH: Stream-entry, for example, is a really, really good one to practice. :-) > RE: You can't jump into the stream without a raft. That's why the Buddha bothered to turn up in the first place, for our benefit. He wasn't "just talk." He had a method. ------- KH: We see things differently. To my mind, the Dhamma tells me what is real now, in the present moment. I don't see it as a way of getting somewhere in the future. ---------------- <. . .> > RE: You believe that the only things that exist are experiential dhammas and you clearly take the position in the sutta about "crossing the flood" of the person who refrains from action. ----------------- KH: What "person" would that be? I think the sutta was telling us there was no person of either kind. ---------------------- <. . .> >> KH: So why don't you enter the Stream? Why don't you experience nibbana? What have you got against that particular practice? > RE: I plan to do so this afternoon. After that I'm going to swim to the moon and toast marshmallows on the sun. ----------------------- KH: I think the point we are both making is that the conditions for Stream-entry are not presently in place. Similarly, in my opinion, the conditions for concentrating kusala consciousness by means of breath counting are not in place. We have a long way to go before breath counting becomes relevant. ------------------------------------ <. . .> > RE: How about all the specific sequences of practice, meditation, action and conduct that the Buddha taught, which is recorded in thousands of pages of teaching. ------------------------------------- KH: It all has to be understood in the context of anatta. And that doesn't mean just understanding it in the usual, ordinary, way and adding a few platitudes about no self. --------------------------------- <. . .> > > KH: there are only dhammas no self. > RE: But the question is, will you ever understand what that means or implies, and why the Buddha made a point of teaching meticulously worked-out rules of conduct, even despite the fact that there are "only dhammas?" --------------------------------- KH: Good question; now we are getting somewhere! If there are only dhammas why should we care about anything? Why should we care about Dhamma study? I think the answer is we shouldn't. The caring is all done by conditions, "we" don't have a say in it. In the ultimately real world "we" don't exist. ---------------------- > > KH: Breath counting is a practice that has been recommended in certain cases for beginner jhana practitioners. Anyone who can be called a jhana practitioner - of any kind - is a rare individual of great merit. > RE: Who said that? Who said it was only for jhana practitioners? It doesn't say that in the Vism. There it says that one beginning work with concentration on the breath. ---------------------- KH: I can't provide the relevant textual citations, so you'll just have to take my word for it. :-) ---------------- <. . .> > RE: In any case, even if what you say is true, it still means that a specific practice is being recommended for *someone* on the path, and it is a *formal practice* at that. Jhana practitioner or no, highly established or no, how can you possibly justify that person engaging in a recommended *formal practice,* while saying other practices are bad or contain self-view? Please explain. ---------------- KH: There are no formal practices in the Dhamma. Instead, there are eight mental factors that work together in a moment of consciousness to put an end to dukkha. ---------------------- > RE: In addition, the counting of the breath is just the beginning of an entire series of planned and graded breathing exercises that lead to greater and greater concentration. Assuming this is not for us, and only for advanced jhanis, it is still a formal practice, which if followed, will give thus-and-such a result. And so it opens the door to *all* formal practices that the Buddha might recommend to have a kusala impact on anyone. If that is the case, the only question is what practices are right for what particular individual, no longer a question of formal practices being inherently akusala and subject to self-view. If you skirt around this and don't answer in a meaningful way, I will be very cross and solemn. ;-( ---------------------- KH: And rightly so! :-) Every conventionally-worded part of the Tipitaka should be explainable in terms of anatta. And so we might well ask, "Given that there are no people (given that there are only namas and rupas ), in what way can it be said that a monk counts breath? In what way can it be said that *anybody* does *anything* towards samatha or vipassana?" That's the kind of question DSG discusses every day. ------------------------------- >> KH: If the cap fits wear it. Otherwise, don't indulge in lamentable parodies. > RE: You're in no position to know who wears what cap, and what is correct practice for anyone. If "counting breaths" is so advanced that only the advanced jhani can do it, then I am going to be very careful to get a "special expert" to help me tie my shoes. -------------------------------- KH: :-) My point exactly! If you find shoelace tying to be helpful in the development of samatha, then do it. If counting breaths helps, then count them. If, however, you don't even know what samatha is or if you can't tell the difference between samatha and lobha then don't kid yourself. --------------------- <. . .> >> KH: Things that can be "noted" are concepts, not dhammas. > RE: The noting is not meant to identify, but to direct. It merely directs the awareness towards the object of attention, the rupas of the rising and falling breath, which are worthy of attention and not conceptual in nature. ----------------------- KH: Objects of satipatthana are experienced by right understanding. They are not experienced by looking, or by lying in wait for them. ------------------------------------- >> KH: An important topic of Dhamma discussion is, "What is the Path, and what is not the Path?" That's all I'm talking about here. I am not interested in personal attacks. > RE I see. So it is not an attack if you accuse people of being caught in non-Buddhist rituals, or engaging in a parody of Buddhism, or spitting in the Buddha's face? -------------------------------------- KH: I knew I shouldn't have mentioned the spitting! I was making a joke at Phil's expense. He made that comment about social drinkers, and I thought that was a bit OTT. (Especially as I am one of those drinkers!) I think if anyone is insultingly unappreciative of the Buddha, it is a person who regards theDhamma as ordinary or easy. -------------------------- > RE: I will try to keep that in mind, Ken H., since you have established such a high standard in that regard. Note to self: Don't insult Ken H., and don't mind if he regularly insults you. Okay, got it! --------------------------- KH: Allow me to repeat myself: I am interested in talking about "what is the Path and what is not the path." I don't want to talk about people who follow paths. If someone feels insulted by what I say about their path, that's a risk I am prepared to take up to a point. We are all adults here, aren't we? :-) Ken H #114359 From: "philip" Date: Sat Apr 2, 2011 4:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is akusala gone never to return? philofillet Hi Sarah and Nina > I think you're asking great qus - just as you did in Thailand. Very interesting post, Sarah, I would like to discuss it further when I have digested it and others. Thank you also Nina, I will take a little break to read and listen. Metta, Phil #114360 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 2, 2011 9:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bkk - with K.Sujin Mar 2011 (2) was: concepts can lead to awakening ashkenn2k Dear Sarah > >>KO: samantha is another path, not as what you mean as 8NP, there are two > >methods, samantha and vipassana, samantha is the method, path is not the > >correct word to use. samandhi is just part of samantha >.... >S: You haven't explained what samadhi is, what samatha is. What kind of dhammas >are they? KO: are dhammas just limited to nama and rupas :-). If yes, pse quote your source, then I quote mine on dhammas in accordance to the commentary >... >>>K:Samadhi is not all of samantha as samantha includes virtue, sati, panna >.... >S: Again, according to the texts, what kind of dhamma is samatha? Is it a citta, > >a cetasika or a rupa? What is it specifically? > >>.... > >>>S: Again, is there samadhi now? Is there samatha now? Can there be micha samadhi >>> >>>now? >>> >... > >>KO: can you direclty see rupa now or just nimattas or just concepts of nama and >> >>rupa. Unless you have direct experience what we see is just inferential >>experience of dhamma. Which text said only dhamma can only be pratice only as >>nama and rupa. also which text said mundane panna is the understanding of nama > >>and rupa, >... >S: Sorry, I fail to see how this answers any of the questions above. KO: Oh, now can be a concepts that rise with panna. now can be a just our conventional understanding of dhamma, now can be breathing meditation or reciting a sutta or memorising a sutta or reciting the 32 parts or listening a dhamma talk, also is your now are the direct understanding of nama and rupa or just nimitta. >... > >>K:Are you saying mindfullness, virtue are not part of samantha? Isn't >listening and reading full of concepts. So what is the difference between >listening and samantha. > >... >S: Ok, let me help you with the answers to the above. Samatha is passaddhi >cetasika (calm). When the Teachings refer to the development of samatha, it is >the development of passaddhi (calm) that is being referred to. At any moments of > >kusala, there is passaddhi or samatha already. So whenever there is virtue, >generosity or bhavana, there is samatha. When it is accompanied by panna >(whether the object is a concept or a reality), there may be the beginning of >development of samatha bhavana or satipatthana. > >When there is "listening", it depends on the citta at any moment whether it is >kusala, whether it is accompanied by samatha or not. Just like now - is the >citta kusala and calm or is it akusala and agitated? The "right" or "wrong" >practice always comes back to the present moment, the citta right now. > KO: Please quote your source that samantha is just passaddhi cetasikas. Just like I ask Jon, where is the text said that samatha is about development of kusala cittas only. You should read visud or displeller or delusions about many of the reciters of 32 part attain enlightement. I could quote you text about samantha as a basis of insight so i would like you to quote me your textual support. Also I did say samantha includes clear comprehension which is panna and clear comprehension is more than just panna as there are four parts to clear comprehension in accordance to the commentary. Ken O #114361 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 2, 2011 9:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Phil about siila ashkenn2k Dear Han and Phil I like this explanation of mundane and supramundane right view This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara). Herein, the knowledge of kamma as one's own and knowledge which is in conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are mundane right view; or, in brief, (mundane right view is) all understanding that is accompanied by the taints.[2]Understanding connected with the noble paths and fruits is supramundane right view.[3]The person possessing right view is of three kinds: the worldling (puthujjana), the disciple in higher training (sekha), and the one beyond training (asekha). Herein, the worldling is of two kinds: one outside the Dispensation and one within the Dispensation. Herein, one outside the Dispensation who believes in kamma is one of right view on account of the view of kamma as one's own, but not on account of that which is in conformity with the truths, because he holds to the view of self. One within the Dispensation is of right view on account of both. The disciple in higher training is one of right view on account of fixed right view,[4]the one beyond training on account of (the right view) that is beyond training.[5] According to the commentary, there is also mundane of the three refuges and supramundane ones, again the explanation is the same as above, one is mundane is with taints, the supradmundane is for noble ones Ken O > > > #114362 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 2, 2011 10:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated ashkenn2k Dear Alex Kamma is the one that accumulates wisdom from moment to moment and from life to life. Citta does not accumulate, according the to texts. the Commentary to Mahanidana Sutta translate by B Bodhi pg 66 <<"Accumulating" is the collecting together or piling up of tis associated phenomena in accordance with its own function. "Lustfulness" is one part of the demeritorious volitional formations, "lustlessness" the rest. Or else all demeritorious volitional formations, as a condition for the arising of lust, as increasing lust, and as not opposed to lust, are called "lustfullness" while the other volitional formations (meritorious and imperturble) as opposite to this are called "lustlessness". the Dispeller of Delusion pg 174 <<645. As regards the formation clause, instead of handling the formations handed down in the texts with the word "formation" among the [kinds of] formations state above, he said Tattha katame avijjapaccaya sankhara? Punnabhisankharo (Herein, which are the formations with ignorance as conditions? The formation of mert") and so on, showing only those formations with ignorance as condition 646. Herein, because "it purifies (punati) the one who performs it and it perfects (pareti) his inclination, and it produces an honourable (pujja) state", it is "merit" (punna). Because "it forms result and the kind of materiality due to kamma performed". it is "formation" (abhisankhara). Because "merit itself is the formation", it is "formation of merit"; demerit (apunna), because of opposition to merit. "Demerit itself is the formation", hence it is "formation of demerit", "it is not pertubed (na injati), hence it is "the imperturbable" (amenja). The imperturbable itself is the fromation". hence it is "formation of the imperturbable"; and because "if forms the imperturbable state" it is "formation of the imperturbable". "Because of its occuring by means of the body", or "as proceeding from the body", or "being the body's formation", it is "bodily formation". So also with the verbal formation and mental formation. 647. Herein the first triad is taken in accordance with the Parivimamsanasutta (S II 80). for therein it is said" " If he forms a formation of merit, consciousness achieves merit; if he forms a formation of demerit, consciousness achieve demerit; if he froms a formation the imperturbable, consciousness achieves the imperturbable. The second traid is taken in accordance with the vibhangasutta next to that (It is permissible to say that it is taken in accordance with the method of sammaditthisutta (M i 54) too). for therein it is said: "Three Bikkhus are the formations. Which three? the bodily formations, the verbal formations and the mental formations.>> Ken O > >What carries accumulated wisdom (panna) from: > >a) moment to moment? >b) life to life? > >With metta, > >Alex #114363 From: "jacob" Date: Sat Apr 2, 2011 3:20 am Subject: Re: just joining the posting group perpetualfl0w Thank you for the kind responses; there are nearly infinite points of interest and questions that come up about the dhammas that may be valuable to discuss or ask; but as for now I will try best to restrain the reactions until a time when greater lack of direction is arising , or a time more appropriate to research online. thank you so much for the encouragement and inspiration, the impressions are certainly of benifit. - your friend in dhamma - Jake #114364 From: han tun Date: Sat Apr 2, 2011 4:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Phil about siila hantun1 Dear Ken O (Phil), Ken O wrote: Dear Han and Phil I like this explanation of mundane and supramundane right view This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara). Herein, the knowledge of kamma as one's own and knowledge which is in conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are mundane right view; or, in brief, (mundane right view is) all understanding that is accompanied by the taints.[2] Understanding connected with the noble paths and fruits is supramundane right view. [3] The person possessing right view is of three kinds: the worldling (puthujjana), the disciple in higher training (sekha), and the one beyond training (asekha). Herein, the worldling is of two kinds: one outside the Dispensation and one within the Dispensation. Herein, one outside the Dispensation who believes in kamma is one of right view on account of the view of kamma as one's own, but not on account of that which is in conformity with the truths, because he holds to the view of self. One within the Dispensation is of right view on account of both. The disciple in higher training is one of right view on account of fixed right view, [4] the one beyond training on account of (the right view) that is beyond training. [5] According to the commentary, there is also mundane of the three refuges and supramundane ones, again the explanation is the same as above, one is mundane is with taints, the supradmundane is for noble ones -------------------- [Han]: Thank you very much for the above quote. I really appreciate it. In my message to Phil, I had quoted only a few lines on mundane right view and superior right view, taken from Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi's book. By quoting only a few lines, I did not do justice at all to Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi's work. One should read the entire chapter on Right View of his book, The Noble Eightfold Path. This chapter is the best explanation on Right View that I have ever read. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html#ch2 with metta and respect, Han #114365 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Apr 2, 2011 7:05 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > Hi Robert E, > > ------- > <. . .> > > > KH: Stream-entry, for example, is a really, really > good one to practice. :-) > > > RE: You can't jump into the stream without a raft. That's why the Buddha bothered to turn up in the first place, for our benefit. He wasn't "just talk." He had a method. > ------- > > KH: We see things differently. To my mind, the Dhamma tells me what is real now, in the present moment. I don't see it as a way of getting somewhere in the future. I might believe that if you said there were no accumulations from citta to citta, but since you accept that progression, you understand as well as I do that there is a systematic development of panna, etc., and that it does not simply happen in an isolated individual moment. Without accumulation from citta to citta - a progression, a development, which Buddha spoke about, there would be no release from samsara, and you have not accounted for that. A radical "one moment only" universe would not include any form of development or accumulation, so there is more than one moment; there is moment-to-moment development, and that is the lynchpin of the Dhamma. > ---------------- > <. . .> > > RE: You believe that the only things that exist are > experiential dhammas and you clearly take the position in the sutta about "crossing the flood" of the person who refrains from action. > ----------------- > > KH: What "person" would that be? I think the sutta was telling us there was no person of either kind. That's a red herring, Ken. Sure, that is true, but it's not what the sutta is about. The sutta is about right effort and what is the correct attitude to take towards the path, and it is neither one of passivity nor volition. If you take the point of view that there is nothing to do, you are taking one of the two wrong positions the Buddha outlines in that sutta. It is not the middle way. > ---------------------- > <. . .> > >> KH: So why don't you enter the Stream? Why don't you experience nibbana? What have you got against that particular practice? > > > RE: I plan to do so this afternoon. After that I'm going to swim to the moon and toast marshmallows on the sun. > ----------------------- > > KH: I think the point we are both making is that the conditions for Stream-entry are not presently in place. > > Similarly, in my opinion, the conditions for concentrating kusala consciousness by means of breath counting are not in place. > > We have a long way to go before breath counting becomes relevant. Seriously, Ken, by what means are you assessing the conditions that are necessary for "concentrating kusala consciousness by means of breathing counting?" Do you know the specific criteria, and do you have the wisdom to assess what is appropriate? I ask that sincerely, because your willingness to accept a possibility of such a practice under the right conditions gives me some hope that there might be a potential meeting ground, however distant it may appear. > ------------------------------------ > <. . .> > > RE: How about all the specific sequences of practice, meditation, action and conduct that the Buddha taught, which is recorded in thousands of pages of teaching. > ------------------------------------- > > KH: It all has to be understood in the context of anatta. And that doesn't mean just understanding it in the usual, ordinary, way and adding a few platitudes about no self. Yes, but even in light of anatta, the Buddha still said all that stuff, including many many things to do and not do. In the light of anatta, how do you interpret all of those admonitions, instructions and directives? What is their purpose in light of anatta? > --------------------------------- > <. . .> > > > KH: there are only dhammas no self. > > > RE: But the question is, will you ever understand what that means or implies, and why the Buddha made a point of teaching meticulously worked-out rules of conduct, even despite the fact that there are "only dhammas?" > --------------------------------- > > KH: Good question; now we are getting somewhere! If there are only dhammas why should we care about anything? Why should we care about Dhamma study? > > I think the answer is we shouldn't. The caring is all done by conditions, "we" don't have a say in it. In the ultimately real world "we" don't exist. Even this conversation is taking place without any ultimate volition of a self. So why refrain from following the natural impulses to practice that may arise from our impersonal contact with the Dhamma? I would never have thought of meditating except for my conditions-based contact with Buddhism. So why resist that which has arisen selflessly? > ---------------------- > > > KH: Breath counting is a practice that has been recommended in certain cases for beginner jhana practitioners. Anyone who can be called a jhana practitioner - of any kind - is a rare individual of great merit. > > > RE: Who said that? Who said it was only for jhana practitioners? It doesn't say that in the Vism. There it says that one beginning work with concentration on the breath. > ---------------------- > > KH: I can't provide the relevant textual citations, so you'll just have to take my word for it. :-) Okay, no problem. :-) > ---------------- > <. . .> > > RE: In any case, even if what you say is true, it still means that a specific > practice is being recommended for *someone* on the path, and it is a *formal > practice* at that. Jhana practitioner or no, highly established or no, how can > you possibly justify that person engaging in a recommended *formal practice,* > while saying other practices are bad or contain self-view? Please explain. > ---------------- > > KH: There are no formal practices in the Dhamma. Instead, there are eight mental factors that work together in a moment of consciousness to put an end to dukkha. Your explanation bypasses, rather than explains, the above. You have dodged the question. Why not confront it and give a sensible answer? > ---------------------- > > RE: In addition, the counting of the breath is just the beginning of an entire > series of planned and graded breathing exercises that lead to greater and > greater concentration. Assuming this is not for us, and only for advanced > jhanis, it is still a formal practice, which if followed, will give > thus-and-such a result. And so it opens the door to *all* formal practices that > the Buddha might recommend to have a kusala impact on anyone. > > If that is the case, the only question is what practices are right for what > particular individual, no longer a question of formal practices being inherently > akusala and subject to self-view. > > If you skirt around this and don't answer in a meaningful way, I will be very > cross and solemn. ;-( > ---------------------- > > KH: And rightly so! :-) Every conventionally-worded part of the Tipitaka should be explainable in terms of anatta. And so we might well ask, "Given that there are no people (given that there are only namas and rupas ), in what way can it be said that a monk counts breath? In what way can it be said that *anybody* does *anything* towards samatha or vipassana?" > > That's the kind of question DSG discusses every day. Ha ha, well you've described the way to frame the answer very well, and yet you have avoided answering! What do you have to say? > ------------------------------- > >> KH: If the cap fits wear it. Otherwise, don't indulge in lamentable parodies. > > > RE: You're in no position to know who wears what cap, and what is correct practice > for anyone. If "counting breaths" is so advanced that only the advanced jhani > can do it, then I am going to be very careful to get a "special expert" to help > me tie my shoes. > -------------------------------- > > KH: :-) My point exactly! If you find shoelace tying to be helpful in the development of samatha, then do it. If counting breaths helps, then count them. > > If, however, you don't even know what samatha is or if you can't tell the difference between samatha and lobha then don't kid yourself. I do not share the opinion, however, that whether one can recognize samatha or not, or develop samatha or not, is dependent on whether one's intellectual understanding of samatha is refined enough. I have the "non-self" opinion that doing certain things will create certain results, not dependent on "oneself," but merely on the conditions that are set in motion. I think my view of that may be more "anatta-based" than yours. :-) > --------------------- > <. . .> > >> KH: Things that can be "noted" are concepts, not dhammas. > > > RE: The noting is not meant to identify, but to direct. It merely directs the awareness towards the object of attention, the rupas of the rising and falling breath, which are worthy of attention and not conceptual in nature. > ----------------------- > > KH: Objects of satipatthana are experienced by right understanding. They are not experienced by looking, or by lying in wait for them. I don't think that right understanding can be developed in absentia. One has to experience dhammas more or less correctly or incorrectly until the understanding develops. It is an active, rather than an intellectual, process, that is fostered by experiencing dhammas and developing mindfulness, a gradual uncontrolled development. But you can't learn to drive by reading a book and never getting in a car. > ------------------------------------- > >> KH: An important topic of Dhamma discussion is, "What is the Path, and what is > not the Path?" That's all I'm talking about here. I am not interested in > personal attacks. > > > RE I see. So it is not an attack if you accuse people of being caught in > non-Buddhist rituals, or engaging in a parody of Buddhism, or spitting in the > Buddha's face? > -------------------------------------- > > KH: I knew I shouldn't have mentioned the spitting! I was making a joke at Phil's expense. He made that comment about social drinkers, and I thought that was a bit OTT. (Especially as I am one of those drinkers!) Yeah, I have a little wine with dinner "for the heart" as my doctor tells me to, so I am within the Buddha's prohibition that alcohol should only be taken medicinally. :-) I should have attributed that one to Phil, but since you repeated it I figured I'd include in your list of bad sayings. :-) > I think if anyone is insultingly unappreciative of the Buddha, it is a person who regards the Dhamma as ordinary or easy. If you think I am saying that following the Dhamma or anything associated with it is easy, you have me confused with another Rob E., if there is one. What we're really arguing about is not ordinariness or difficulty, but what right understanding of the path consists of. > -------------------------- > > RE: I will try to keep that in mind, Ken H., since you have > established such a high standard in that regard. > > Note to self: Don't insult Ken H., and don't mind if he regularly insults you. > Okay, got it! > --------------------------- > > KH: Allow me to repeat myself: I am interested in talking about "what is the Path and what is not the path." I don't want to talk about people who follow paths. > > If someone feels insulted by what I say about their path, that's a risk I am prepared to take up to a point. We are all adults here, aren't we? :-) I agree. Just checking. :-) This last round was fun. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #114366 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Apr 2, 2011 7:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated truth_aerator Hello KenO, Thank you for your post. With best wishes, Alex #114367 From: Ken O Date: Sat Apr 2, 2011 7:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Phil about siila ashkenn2k Dear Han B Bodhi edited the commentaries of right view sutta translated by Ven Namoli. It can be view online. Hope you enjoy reading it. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html Ken O #114368 From: han tun Date: Sat Apr 2, 2011 8:59 pm Subject: Re: To Phil about siila hantun1 Dear Ken O, Thank you very much for The Discourse on Right View: The Sammaditthi Sutta and its Commentary, translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu anamoli, and edited and revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html I did not know the existence of this document. I cannot say how much I thank you. This is the most precious Dhamma Gift for me. with metta and deepest respect, Han #114369 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 3, 2011 2:44 pm Subject: The Eye... bhikkhu5 Friends: Sense-Organs also implies Sensing Suffering! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said this: Bhikkhus, the arising, emergence, maintenance, creation, & manifestation of the Eye the Ear, the Nose, the Tongue, and the Body is also the arising of much Suffering, the continuation of disease, the very manifestation of ageing, decay and Death itself! The ceasing, all subsiding, and complete passing away of the Eye, the Ear, the Nose, the Tongue, and the Body is also the Final Ending of all Suffering, the abating of all disease, and the complete passing away of all ageing, decay and even the elimination of the process and necessity of death itself! Bhikkhus, the arising, emergence, maintenance, creation, & manifestation of the Mind is also the arising of Suffering, the long continuation of disease, the very manifestation of ageing, decay and Death itself! Therefore is the ceasing, subsiding, silencing and thus the complete passing away of the Mind and all mentality consequently also the final ending of all Suffering, the abating of all disease, & stopping the ageing, sickness, pain, suffering, & even the fact of death itself! Only this can end all Suffering! More on these Sense Sources (The 12 Ayatana <....> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya 26:1 III 228-9 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #114370 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Apr 3, 2011 8:49 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ----- <. . .> >> KH: I don't see it as a way of getting somewhere in the future. > RE: I might believe that if you said there were no accumulations from citta to citta, but since you accept that progression, you understand as well as I do that there is a systematic development of panna, etc., and that it does not simply happen in an isolated individual moment. Without accumulation from citta to citta - a progression, a development, which Buddha spoke about, there would be no release from samsara, and you have not accounted for that. A radical "one moment only" universe would not include any form of development or accumulation, so there is more than one moment; there is moment-to-moment development, and that is the lynchpin of the Dhamma. ------ KH: There is nothing that continues on, and so right understanding has to be now or never. ------------------ <. . > >> KH: What "person" would that be? I think the sutta was telling us there was no person of either kind. > RE: That's a red herring, Ken. Sure, that is true, but it's not what the sutta is about. The sutta is about right effort and what is the correct attitude to take towards the path, and it is neither one of passivity nor volition. ------------------ KH: Nor is it a bit of both. Finding the Middle Way does not mean finding a balancing point between two extremes, it means finding a previously unknown universe. The sutta is telling us that right effort (for crossing the flood) is simply any effort that arises with right undersanding. ----------------- > RE: If you take the point of view that there is nothing to do, you are taking one of the two wrong positions the Buddha outlines in that sutta. ----------------- KH: Not necessarily. You could rightly take the view that there was nothing to be done *by a permanent soul*. ---------------------- <. . .> >> KH: We have a long way to go before breath counting becomes relevant. > RE: Seriously, Ken, by what means are you assessing the conditions that are necessary for "concentrating kusala consciousness by means of breathing counting?" Do you know the specific criteria, and do you have the wisdom to assess what is appropriate? ---------------------- KH: To be a potential jhana student, a person first has to know kusala from akusala. Even in difficult-to-tell situations there needs to be the ability to distinguish kusala citta with neutral feeling feeling from akusala citta with neutral feeling. There is only a tiny elite group of people who can do that. Even in the Buddha's day such people were rare. And only a few of that elite group would ever decide to develop jhana. They would be the ones who were prepared to leave their household life and find a jhana master in some remote jungle location or other. If the jhana master agreed to teach them, he would show them how to direct their kusala consciousness towards a chosen object of meditation. And if the chosen object was breath, then (and only then) breath-counting might have been recommended in some cases. But even then it is not easy. The Visuddhimagga says that only one in "a hundred or a thousand" of those beginners will ever attain access concentration. And, of those, only a one in a hundred or a thousand will ever attain the first jhana. --------------------- > RE: I ask that sincerely, because your willingness to accept a possibility of such a practice under the right conditions gives me some hope that there might be a potential meeting ground, however distant it may appear. ----------------------- KH: I see what you mean, but I am not admitting to any thin end of the wedge. :-) The only real practices that ever exist are dhammas performing their functions. Kusala comes first, breath counting comes second. So when there is breath-counting with kusala concentration, it is without any desire for attaining, or even any idea of attaining. It is just a part of that jahna student's everyday lifestyle. ------------------- <. . .> > RE: Even this conversation is taking place without any ultimate volition of a self. So why refrain from following the natural impulses to practice that may arise from our impersonal contact with the Dhamma? I would never have thought of meditating except for my conditions-based contact with Buddhism. So why resist that which has arisen selflessly? --------------------- KH: The factors that actually lead to enlightenment are association with wise friends, hearing the true Dhamma, wisely considering, and directly understanding the characteristics of a conditioned dhamma. And I agree, why resist any of those things? That's why we find ourselves at DSG! But where does the Dhamma say that *meditation* leads to enlightenment? Why would we naturally find ourselves sitting and walking in special ways, trying to 'still the mind' observing and noting concepts, or any of that sort of thing? ------------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: "Given that there are no people (given that there are only namas and rupas ), in what way can it be said that a monk counts breath? In what way can it be said that *anybody* does *anything* towards samatha or vipassana?" > > That's the kind of question DSG discusses every day. > RE: Ha ha, well you've described the way to frame the answer very well, and yet you have avoided answering! What do you have to say? ------------------------------- KH: I say study Abhidhamma. Everything can be explained as dhammas experiencing other dhammas, dhammas creating concepts, and so on. ---------------------- <. . .> > RE: I do not share the opinion, however, that whether one can recognize samatha or not, or develop samatha or not, is dependent on whether one's intellectual understanding of samatha is refined enough. I have the "non-self" opinion that doing certain things will create certain results, not dependent on "oneself," but merely on the conditions that are set in motion. I think my view of that may be more "anatta-based" than yours. :-) ------------------------ KH: I think you are saying that enlightenment comes about, not by right understanding of conditioned reality, but by the performance of certain acts. (Dare I call them "rituals"?) ------------------- <. . .> > KH: Objects of satipatthana are experienced by right understanding. They are not experienced by looking, or by lying in wait for them. > RE: I don't think that right understanding can be developed in absentia. One has to experience dhammas more or less correctly or incorrectly until the understanding develops. It is an active, rather than an intellectual, process, that is fostered by experiencing dhammas and developing mindfulness, a gradual uncontrolled development. But you can't learn to drive by reading a book and never getting in a car. -------------------- KH: So you are saying it's partly right understanding and partly ritualistic looking and lying in wait. But that's not possible. Right understanding and rituals are incompatible, they can't go together. Ken H #114371 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 1:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Characteristics of cittas? sarahprocter... Dear Tim, (Howard, Rob E & Ken H) --- On Wed, 30/3/11, Tim Desmond wrote: >I sincerely appreciate your willingness to respond to me and I hope that I don't seem impertinent or obtuse. I believe that I do understand the points that you are making, but they don't seem to directly contradict the possibility of multiple cittas active at once. ... S: Not in the slightest bit "impertinent or obtuse". Personally, I read there not to be any possibility of "multiple cittas active at once". All the detail we read about sense door and mind door processes (citta vithi) all suggests to me that there can only ever be one citta at a time. I think that if you read the chapters on processes in Abhidhammattha Sangaha, you will get a good sense of this. For example: http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/sangaha.htmch 4 Analysis of Thuoght Processes one citta conditioning another. A citta cannot arise until the last one has fallen away. Even in the Suttas, many similes are given to indicate this as well. For example, one that has recently been discussed on DSG is that of the monkey grasping one branch at a time: From (Nidaanavagga) VII The Great Subchapter 61:1 Uninstructed, Samyutta Nikaya (Bodhi transl) "But that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and consciousness' arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still another, so too that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and 'consciousness' arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. [note 157]" S: Here the commentary note is given "[note 157: Spk: 'By day and by night (rattiyaa ca divasassa ca): This is a genitive in the locative sense, i.e., during the night and during the day. Arises as one thing and ceases as another (annadeva uppajjati, anna.m nirujjhati): The meaning is that (the mind) that arises and ceases during the day is other than (the mind) that arises and ceases during the night. The statement should not be taken to mean that one thing arises and some thing altogether different, which had not arisen, ceases. "Day and night" is said by way of continuity, taking a continuity of lesser duration than the previous one (i.e. the one stated for the body). But one citta is not able to endure for a whole day or a whole night. Even in the time of a fingersnap many hundred thousand kotis of cittas arise and cease (1 koti=10 million). The simile of the monkey should be understood thus: The "grove of objects" is like the forest grove. The mind arising in the grove of objects is like the monkey wandering in the forest grove. The mind's taking hold of an object is like the monkey grabbing hold of a branch. Just as the monkey, roaming through the forest, leaves behind one branch and grabs hold of another, so the mind, roaming through the grove of objects, arises sometimes grasping hold of a visible object, sometimes a sound, sometimes the past, sometimes the present or future, sometimes an internal object, sometimes an external object. When the monkey does not find a (new) branch it does not descend and sit on the ground, but sits holding to a single leafy branch. So too, when the mind is roaming through the grove of objects, it cannot be said that it arises without holding to an object; rather it arises holding to an object of a single kind." S: In other words, one citta at a time, experiencing one object at a time. ... >I'm wondering if there is anything in the Abhidhamma that conflicts with a parallel processing model. .... S: Yes, I think the entire Abhidhamma conflicts with such an idea. Life exists in a single citta at this moment. Like the point on the circumference of the wheel which touches the ground - there is only ever one point, or like the balance of the ayatanas on the needle point - at any given moment of experience, there is only ever one citta "balancing" on that point, falling away as soon as it has arisen. >My reading of the the quotes you have shared so far describe the process of an individual citta. One citta manifests and ceases (sometimes in just one mind-moment) and it conditions future cittas. A mind-moment is a discreet unit of experience that is extremely small. ... S: And that is the entire "world" at that moment. There is also the simile of the ant-hill indicating that there can only be an experience through one of the six doorways at a time. I don't have texts with me, so here is a quote that Ven Samahita gave on this: >Ven S: "One should dwell like the snake, which sees the mouse hide in ant-hill with six openings! By lying rolled up on the anthill - constantly watching - the snake remains on the thought: Out of which hole may this mouse appear ?! Even so one thinks: Through which sense door may the next contact appear ?!" >Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 35:132 IV 117-21 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html ... S: One doorway to "guard" at a time, one citta to "guard" at a time. Metta Sarah ========= #114372 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 1:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding dhammas and realms (Sarah) sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, [Just a brief reply as Azita and others have already given helpful comments] --- On Mon, 28/3/11, philip wrote: >Hi Sarah, when you have a moment can I ask for some thoughts on this? If we understand there is only this one moment, does it mean that we do not believe that there is a realm that a being is born into, whether woeful or favourable? ... S: It means that now the "realm" is the kusala/akusala vipaka. By conditions, during this life the birth citta, all the bhavanga cittas and the death citta are kusala vipaka and so is much else experienced during the day. However, there are also moments of akusala vipaka, such as when there is the hearing of unpleasant sounds (like the drilling above my head!). We can call these "realms" or anything else, but we know that depending on kamma, in some lives, there is mostly akusala vipaka (such as in the woeful planes) and in some lives there is an incredible degree of very refined kusala vipaka (such as in the heavenly realms). Still, just one citta at a time, one moment at a time and what passed before or what hasn't come yet is of no significance for the development of understanding now of conditioned dhammas. .... >If this is a kind of imponderable topic that doesn't catch your interest please don't hesitate to say so, I would always like to offer you the option to opt out of my questions... ... S: Thx! Sarah ====== #114373 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta, no contro vs meditation . Why is there a problem? sarahprocter... Hi Rob E (& Phil), --- On Mon, 28/3/11, Robert E wrote: >On the other hand, there may also be some usefulness, from my point of view, when we experience unpleasant vipaka now, to say "This is a hell realm now at this moment" rather than thinking they are more distant in space or time. Whenever super-unpleasant vipaka arises it creates "hell on earth," and I'm not sure if the hell realms are that different except for degree. And for those who saw the tsunami coming towards them as they sat in their cars, or are living in a side-street in Calcutta with disease and without any food, even the degree would not be so different. ... S: I think you put this well. Metta Sarah ======= #114374 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness of nama (Robert K) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- On Wed, 30/3/11, philip wrote: >I read this in SPD: "The understanding acquired from study can be an accumulated condition or sankharakhanda for the arising of sati of satipatthana. Sati can be aware of the characteristic of citta that is nama, the element that experiences an object at this very moment. In this way panna can develop and eliminate the wrong view that takes all realities for self." >Of course there can be awarenwss of any reality that appears but itseems from my listening that A Sujin often (as above) stresses awareness of nama, the element that knows. Am I reading too much into that? If so, just tell me, but if you want to share any thoughts on awareness of nama vs. awareness of rupa I would be happy to read them. ... S: There has to be awareness of both namas and rupas - sometimes a text will stress on cittas or feelings, sometimes on rupas, but the development of understanding is of *what appears*, entirely dependent on conditions - no selection at all, otherwise we go wrong again. Metta Sarah p.s no need to respond to anything I write if you're busy. ====== #114375 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 1:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- On Wed, 30/3/11, Robert E wrote: >Okay, thank you very much. That really covers the general point about types of sati. That gives me a framework for thinking about it, and clarifies a lot about my 'favorite' cetasika [it is a cetasika isn't it?] ... S: Yes, sati is a 'sobhana (beautiful)' cetasika which arises with all sobhana cittas. ... >Well, so far as I know, the "projection of metta" and "metta meditation" are prescribed by the Buddha, so I don't see them as inherently self-based, but that is just the usual disagreement. I don't think that metta directed towards other beings is "all about me" at all, just because I happen to be engaged in the practice. .... S: It may be a matter of language (but I think it's more than that), but I understand there to be a difference between natural, genuine, friendliness and helpfulness during the day when we are with others or communicate with others (like here!) and between a deliberate practice (often removed from people) when there is an attempt to have metta arise and to project or send it in the direction of others. To me, the latter is a thinking about and trying to have metta arise whereas the former is metta without thinking about it first - just being friendly and kind when there is an opportunity. .... >Leaving that aside, my question is, why is any quality directed towards the concept of a "person" kusala or meritorious? I guess you have already said that wholesome qualities can arise in relation to a concept, but I'm just not quite sure why that is, since it is based in delusion. .... S: When there is genuine metta, the citta is kusala and there's no delusion. At that moment, the concern is for the other's welfare. There is no idea of a being at such a time, although there may be afterwards. The Buddha had the greatest metta, but no delusion at all about there being anything other than namas and rupas. Just as 'our' namas would like to experience pleasant objects now through the senses, so would the namas of others. When you help your family or neighbours or others here on the list, you're just trying to help - you're not thinking about whether in truth there is or isn't a being. .... >Does the nature of satipatthana change with each stage of insight? Is satipatthana different in different stages? ... S: Yes, it develops and the panna and sati become more penetrating, deeper. For example, in the first place the characteristic of various namas and rupas are known. When insight has developed, the impermanence of those dhammas is known. This is a much deeper/higher development of satipatthana. .... >Thank you, Sarah. I was a little stuck for a while on the idea that understanding various processes would aid in detachment from self-concept; but I can see that in many cases in order to be fully convinced that there is no self or doer pulling the strings when things take place, one needs to thoroughly understand how the process works, and then can see that it is just process from beginning to end. ... S: Again, you've summarised the point beautifully:-) For most of us, we have to hear a lot of detail and often to really appreciate that all that exist in truth are these mental and physical phenomena and that there really is no being, no table, no chair and so on. ... >I guess one who had enough faith, who would just hear an example and get the idea and then fully resolve that there was no self involved, might not need all the details and all the examples to bring the point home. That might explain some of the sudden awakenings that are reported in the suttas. ... S: Yes, exactly - like Sariputta. This is why it is actually those of us who are slow learners (I think we could include everyone today), need to hear/consider the details of the Abhidhamma - not in order to accumulate book knowledge, but in order to really develop detachment from the idea of atta now. Metta Sarah ===== #114376 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is "direct" understanding? sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Wed, 30/3/11, truth_aerator wrote: >>S:I said "direct understanding...". Do you understand a "direct >understanding" of the Noble Truths to "merely involve the right >theoretical knowledge"? .... A:>Please clarify what you mean by "direct". Is it strong conviction in the truth of proposition, is it some clairvoyant vision or something else? .... S: It refers to the panna which understands the dhammas involved without thinking about them. For example, now we may think about sound which is experienced. When it is the direct understanding, that reality of sound is known at that moment without any thinking or proposition -just that dhamma which is experienced at that moment. So let's take the First Noble Truth of Dukkha. This can only be realised or known through the "direct understanding" of the impermanence of dhammas. This is not theoretical at all. Let me hear your comments/qus and we can discuss this further. ... >Unfortunately, as it comes to patipatti - it is not that good. .... S: So what about now? There is seeing, hearing, sound, thinking....is there any understanding of what appears now or are we more concerned about future/past understanding? .... >Physical seclusion in proper place is an important component according to the Buddha (MN17) and commentaries such as VsM. ... S: So this is not now anymore, but a concern about the future/past again. ... >Not every place is an ideal place. That is why the suttas and commentaries often talk about going into physical seclusion and meditating there. The VsM is clear about it, and in certain paragraphs talks about physical impediments. ... S: Again, this is just thinking about different places now. Is there any understanding of thinking as just a conditioned dhamma now? Metta Sarah ====== #114377 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] just joining the posting group sarahprocter... Dear Jacob, I'm also very glad to welcome you to the group and thank you for kindly going to the trouble to give your intro. I saw that in your subsequent note that you plan to lurk quietly for a while - I'd just like to encourage you and any other newbies here to post any comments or any qus (no matter how basic) as they help us all. --- On Thu, 31/3/11, jacob douglas wrote: >I have just received a reply email , i'm assuming resulting from the attempt to send a message to your posting group earlier today. I am unfamilier with communicating through a blogging system such as this exactly and it seems it may take a bit of catching up to do to grasp the details of make use of this communication and learning system for my own benifit more easily. .... S: You may find it helpful to skip certain detailed threads in the beginning and just follow those that are easier to read, such as any threads you start yourself! There is also a simple Pali glossary in the files that it might be helpful to print out and have handy. .... >For now, I am writing from a cafe in downtown mae sariang , thailand , where i have scooted away from the monastery in the rural area for the afternoon, where i am currently stationed, in order to try and reach out and try to make contact with "others" regarding the development of understanding paramatta dhammas, and gain inspiration from the concept that there are "others" who are trying to similarly. ... S: Thank you very much for reaching out and it's always encouraging to hear from others, like yourself, with an appreciation of the value of understanding paramattha dhammas. You may also like to listen to some of the edited audio on this subject from our discussions with A.Sujin: www.dhammastudygroup.org ... >Just now i have spent several hours here and am tired to write much of an introduction that i now understand is appropriate to write innitially introduce one's history and views and so on that may help others to become more aware of my intentions in joining the posting group. I feel I have made major advances in setting good conditions for the arising of kusala dhamma by sinking into this website this afternoon , and hope to learn more in the future. ... S: Thx again for mentioning it. Hope you haven't been hit too badly by the floods in S.Thailand. .... >For now it may suffice to just briefly state that I am a 26 yr old male person who has decided that the conceptual study of paramatta dhammas and being wise about developing supportive conditions for the arising of Sati and Panna is the most fundamentally valuable form of learning , or thing that i can engage in, and am glad to do so. Hearing of others experiences is a source of faith and gives rise to joy that inspires the mind towards Dhamma chanda. I rejoice in the Great Victories of the Buddhas and Sanghas of the past , future and present , May all who aspire for happiness and freedom meet with success, May we all rejoice in our own right efforts and good fortune. May all the greater and lesser blessings support all the beings in the world. .... S: Very nicely said! Metta Sarah p.s Where do you come from? ========== #114378 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 2:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka! sarahprocter... Hi Chris, Always good to hear from you. Hope you're doing well. --- On Fri, 25/3/11, Christine wrote: >This matter was brought to my notice by Bhante Gavesako over at DW. `'It is all over the Thai web, another big scandal..... .... S: There will always be scandals, won't there? Metta Sarah ======= #114379 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) sarahprocter... Hi Pt (& Rob E), --- On Fri, 25/3/11, ptaus1 wrote: >> S: I wonder if you've started your new job? >pt: Yes, a month ago, and still trying to do my old one at the same time. Same with old and new studies. So not much time at all (I am trying to sort out the yahoo return mail issue though - lot of back and forth but nothing definite atm). ... S: You sound very busy. A bit like Jon's new job - good news for you both, but bad news for DSG! If no one has complained about the yahoo return mail issue recently, I think we can forget it. ... >> S: When awareness arises and is aware of a reality, it doesn't know anything - it's just aware of what appears. >pt: Ok, that makes sense, in that the function of sati is to be aware rather than to know, which is for panna to do. I'm still wondering though, in the cases when metta arises without understanding - that lack of understanding would relate only to the lack of right understanding of the satipatthana kind? Or would it also lack understanding of the samatha kind which recognises the value of metta? .... S: Like most times, for most people, when metta arises during the day - there is just kindness and friendliness by accumulations for such, but no knowing of anything. So it just depends whether there are also accumulations in such cases for the understanding of "the samatha kinds which recognises the value of metta" to arise and grow or not. Some people naturally have a lot of kusala, a lot of kindness, but if there is no understanding developing (of any kind) of the quality and value of such tendencies, the accumulations can change. .... >It seems strange to me that sati would arise without at least some sort of understanding, if even just on an intellectual level, which recognises the experience of metta as something other than pain for example. .... S: Not necessarily any thinking about its quality at all - just being helpful and kind when an opportunity arises. Sati arises with all sobhana cittas - even the bhavanga cittas in this life! As it happens, many people have been kind and helpful to me today. I doubt that many of them even thought about the quality of helpfulness - they just acted when there were the conditions to do so. .... Metta Sarah ..... > S: p.s learning to use my new macbook air - great for travel (and the tiny studio flat we now live in here in HK) AND IT PRINTS:-) >pt: Good news:) I'll miss fiddling with your old laptop though. Looks like its karma wasn't that bad after all, considering it got reincarnated as macbook air :) .... S: :)) And just as with every happy "reinarnation" there is a flip-side - some of that "destructive kamma" at work too, so it is that there is lots of sorting-out to do as I go along. Like now, I'm trying to get rid of the Zoom function which keeps enlarging the text - must have been the pesky deeds of that last computer.... -and Rob E, sorry for adding to your computer dilemmas... I think this is quite a good compromise however. for others - pls ignore the p.s. nonsense between us! Metta Sarah ====== #114380 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 2:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the nature of anatta (was: Re: wisdom and doing) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- On Sat, 26/3/11, Robert E wrote: >Thank you very much for your thoughts on these examples. I am happy to see that some of the correspondences I noticed make some sense to you. Seeing that continuity of terminology and practice from an earlier time to the time of the Buddha gives me a sense of Buddhism as the unique creation that it was at the time, and how skillful Buddha was in bringing his new meanings to light. >Really, in a sense, a brilliant teacher, skilled technician, and even an excellent politician, taking the culture of the time and using it to the advantage of those who were ready for a new way. ... S: Yes, brilliant in every sense. Metta Sarah ======= #114381 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 2:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/3/2011 11:50:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: KH: There is nothing that continues on, and so right understanding has to be now or never. ================================ I suppose you must mean something by this. But on the face of it, since we don't have right understanding now, I guess we never will! :-) With metta, Howard P. S. Your "now" isn't as simple as you seem to think it is, it seems to me. Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114382 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 2:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: There is nothing that continues on, and so right understanding has to be now or never. > H: I suppose you must mean something by this. ---- KH: I meant the obvious meaning. A man on his death bed, for example, might say, "I haven't climbed Mount Everest, and now I have to fact that I never will." That's the sort of thing I meant. There will be countless more lives after this one, and infinite opportunities for mountain climbing, but we all know in our heart of hearts that this is the only life for us. And it's the same with the present citta. There will be another citta after it, and many more to come, but so what? Nothing continues on. ------------ > H: But on the face of it, since we don't have right understanding now, I guess we never will! :-) ------------ KH: But isn't that our right understanding? :-) Ken H #114383 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 3:19 pm Subject: Re: what is "direct" understanding? truth_aerator Hello Sarah, all, >S: It refers to the panna which understands the dhammas involved >without thinking about them. So it is an arising of perception or inference? > S: So what about now? There is seeing, hearing, sound, >thinking....is there any understanding of what appears now or are we >more concerned about future/past understanding? > .... > >Physical seclusion in proper place is an important component >according to the Buddha (MN17) and commentaries such as VsM. > ... > S: So this is not now anymore, but a concern about the future/past >again. > S: Again, this is just thinking about different places now. What you are saying seems to be a a certain kind of interpretation of the Buddha's message. His message in MN17 was clear. Not every place is equally suited for progress. I fully agree that one should make the best use of the situation one is in. Of course health, various commitments, etc, can hinder. Sure. Of course it is good to do the best right now as well. But there are better occasions which would be preferable to get, meanwhile one develops understanding now. IMHO, With metta, Alex #114384 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 11:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/4/2011 5:37:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: There is nothing that continues on, and so right understanding has to be now or never. > H: I suppose you must mean something by this. ---- KH: I meant the obvious meaning. A man on his death bed, for example, might say, "I haven't climbed Mount Everest, and now I have to fact that I never will." That's the sort of thing I meant. There will be countless more lives after this one, and infinite opportunities for mountain climbing, but we all know in our heart of hearts that this is the only life for us. And it's the same with the present citta. There will be another citta after it, and many more to come, but so what? Nothing continues on. ------------ > H: But on the face of it, since we don't have right understanding now, I guess we never will! :-) ------------ KH: But isn't that our right understanding? :-) -------------------------------------------------- Only if you are emphasizing the "we". Otherwise, of course not! Otherwise it is dreadfully wrong understanding. Mixing ordinary speech with Dhammic speech is a terrible practice. The Buddha taught worldlings who, to speak conventionally, became ariyans. The earlier states and conditions served to create the later ones. The Buddha spoke of development and of the future. He wasn't insane. He just spoke the way people speak! The present of course doesn't become the future, but it does condition the future. Certainly a current unawakened state never becomes awakened! It never becomes anything, for it doesn't last at all, even for a moment. So what? We all know that. Unawakened is unawakened. What is the deep understanding in this? Fresh milk is fresh, and later curdled milk is curdled. They are not the same milk. But the later curdled "came from" the earlier fresh milk. (To use an analogy.) --------------------------------------------------- Ken H =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114385 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 3:22 pm Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E, > > ----- > <. . .> > >> KH: I don't see it as a way of getting somewhere in the > future. > > > RE: I might believe that if you said there were no accumulations from citta to > citta, but since you accept that progression, you understand as well as I do > that there is a systematic development of panna, etc., and that it does not > simply happen in an isolated individual moment. Without accumulation from citta > to citta - a progression, a development, which Buddha spoke about, there would > be no release from samsara, and you have not accounted for that. A radical "one moment only" universe would not include any form of development or accumulation, so there is more than one moment; there is moment-to-moment development, and > that is the lynchpin of the Dhamma. > ------ > > KH: There is nothing that continues on, and so right understanding has to be now or never. What about the accumulations that are passed on from citta to citta? Do they not "continue on?" Is there any chance that you will answer this question sometime in this lifetime, Ken? :-) > ------------------ > <. . > > >> KH: What "person" would that be? I think the sutta was telling us there was no person of either kind. > > > RE: That's a red herring, Ken. Sure, that is true, but it's not what the sutta is about. The sutta is about right effort and what is the correct attitude to take towards the path, and it is neither one of passivity nor volition. > ------------------ > > KH: Nor is it a bit of both. Finding the Middle Way does not mean finding a balancing point between two extremes, it means finding a previously unknown universe. > > The sutta is telling us that right effort (for crossing the flood) is simply any effort that arises with right understanding. What in the sutta suggests that message to you, Ken H.? Is there something in the sutta which you feel relays that specific message, or is it just your own sense of what is right that you are imposing on the sutta? > ----------------- > > RE: If you take > the point of view that there is nothing to do, you are taking one of the two > wrong positions the Buddha outlines in that sutta. > ----------------- > > KH: Not necessarily. You could rightly take the view that there was nothing to be done *by a permanent soul*. The point that Buddha actually makes in this sutta is that standing still [not doing anything/refraining from action] and putting forth effort [willfully doing something] are both equally wrong. So, sure, anything done with self-view is wrong; but refraining from doing anything - saying there is no practice and refraining from pracice, for instance - because there is no self is wrong view of anatta. It is turning no-self into a kind of self, because instead of basing action on self-view, you are basing inaction on no-self-view. It is the same thing according to the sutta, just as bad an extreme self-view. > ---------------------- > <. . .> > >> KH: We have a long way to go before breath counting becomes relevant. > > > RE: Seriously, Ken, by what means are you assessing the conditions that are > necessary for "concentrating kusala consciousness by means of breathing > counting?" Do you know the specific criteria, and do you have the wisdom to > assess what is appropriate? > ---------------------- > > KH: To be a potential jhana student, a person first has to know kusala from akusala. Even in difficult-to-tell situations there needs to be the ability to distinguish kusala citta with neutral feeling feeling from akusala citta with neutral feeling. > > There is only a tiny elite group of people who can do that. Even in the Buddha's day such people were rare. And only a few of that elite group would ever decide to develop jhana. They would be the ones who were prepared to leave their household life and find a jhana master in some remote jungle location or other. > > If the jhana master agreed to teach them, he would show them how to direct their kusala consciousness towards a chosen object of meditation. And if the chosen object was breath, then (and only then) breath-counting might have been recommended in some cases. > > But even then it is not easy. The Visuddhimagga says that only one in "a hundred or a thousand" of those beginners will ever attain access concentration. And, of those, only a one in a hundred or a thousand will ever attain the first jhana. I would appreciate the location of that discussion in the Vism, if you know where it is. I did not see any such statistical analysis in the anapanasati section of the Vism when I read the discussion. However, I appreciate the above discussion - it does give a clear view of what you think are the criteria/conditions for approaching jhana and the subject of breathing. I would ask you this - I'm still waiting for an answer from several people, but I don't think I've ever gotten one - why does the anapanasati sutta open with a discussion of many, many beginning monks being taught anapanasati, and many beginning monks being trained by a variety of other more accomplished monks. In other words, a big 'ol meditation retreat where everyone is practicing and learning anapanasati, if it is so amazingly rare? Do you think that all the one-in-a-millions were gathered there at that time, and all the "beginners" were already accomplished samatha practitioners? One doesn't get the impression that this was the only time and place where such a gathering was held. Also, why were all these beginners being taught basic breathing meditation? Are you saying that this is such an advanced object that the "beginners" at breathing were actually already great adepts at meditation with other objects? It seems very unlikely to me, and is not stated or implied in the sutta. > --------------------- > > RE: I ask that sincerely, because your willingness to > accept a possibility of such a practice under the right conditions gives me some > hope that there might be a potential meeting ground, however distant it may > appear. > ----------------------- > > KH: I see what you mean, but I am not admitting to any thin end of the wedge. :-) The only real practices that ever exist are dhammas performing their functions. > > Kusala comes first, breath counting comes second. So when there is breath-counting with kusala concentration, it is without any desire for attaining, or even any idea of attaining. It is just a part of that jhana student's everyday lifestyle. But indded you are saying that once kusala is known and understood, one is able to practice without self-view. Well that is interesting, even if it is remote for most of us. > ------------------- > <. . .> > > RE: Even this conversation is taking place without any ultimate volition of a self. > So why refrain from following the natural impulses to practice that may arise > from our impersonal contact with the Dhamma? I would never have thought of > meditating except for my conditions-based contact with Buddhism. So why resist > that which has arisen selflessly? > --------------------- > > KH: The factors that actually lead to enlightenment are association with wise friends, hearing the true Dhamma, wisely considering, and directly understanding the characteristics of a conditioned dhamma. Then why did Buddha deal so extensively with other path factors, and why are they even included in the 8 arms of the path? Why does he deal so extensively with meditation, jhana, anapanasati and even satipatthana? Why not just say that the arising of the momentary dhamma is the entire path, and that none of these other things matter? There doesn't seem to be any reason to discuss these things at all if you are correct. > And I agree, why resist any of those things? That's why we find ourselves at DSG! Thanks for the advertisement. :-) > But where does the Dhamma say that *meditation* leads to enlightenment? Why would we naturally find ourselves sitting and walking in special ways, trying to 'still the mind' observing and noting concepts, or any of that sort of thing? I don't know, why did the Buddha and all his followers find themselves doing such things constantly, talking about them and teaching them? Isn't that weird? Were they all heretical ritualists??? You seem to want to deny the *facts* of the Dhamma and of the practice, in favor of your own philosophical view. > ------------------------------- > <. . .> > >> KH: "Given that > there are no people (given that there are only namas and rupas ), in what way > can it be said that a monk counts breath? In what way can it be said that > *anybody* does *anything* towards samatha or vipassana?" > > > > That's the kind of question DSG discusses every day. > > > RE: Ha ha, well you've described the way to frame the answer very well, and yet you > have avoided answering! What do you have to say? > ------------------------------- > > KH: I say study Abhidhamma. Everything can be explained as dhammas experiencing other dhammas, dhammas creating concepts, and so on. > > ---------------------- > <. . .> > > RE: I do not share the opinion, however, that whether one can recognize samatha or > not, or develop samatha or not, is dependent on whether one's intellectual > understanding of samatha is refined enough. I have the "non-self" opinion that > doing certain things will create certain results, not dependent on "oneself," > but merely on the conditions that are set in motion. I think my view of that > may be more "anatta-based" than yours. :-) > ------------------------ > > KH: I think you are saying that enlightenment comes about, not by right understanding of conditioned reality, but by the performance of certain acts. (Dare I call them "rituals"?) What you are calling "acts" are just conditioned realities that create more conditioned realities. Your view of such things is conceptualized, I think, in an incorrect way. There is nothing but conditions. > ------------------- > <. . .> > > KH: Objects of satipatthana are experienced by right understanding. They are not experienced by looking, or by lying in wait for them. > > > RE: I don't think that right understanding can be developed in absentia. One has to > experience dhammas more or less correctly or incorrectly until the understanding > develops. It is an active, rather than an intellectual, process, that is > fostered by experiencing dhammas and developing mindfulness, a gradual > uncontrolled development. But you can't learn to drive by reading a book and > never getting in a car. > -------------------- > > KH: So you are saying it's partly right understanding and partly ritualistic looking and lying in wait. But that's not possible. Right understanding and rituals are incompatible, they can't go together. Your way of describing this - looking and lying in wait - is quite prejudiced against the actuality of meditation, which is not "looking and lying in wait," but simply seeing what arises with relative mindfulness, which then develops naturally, informed by the Dhamma. It's not any different from anything else that you think is "natural," except in your mind. It's not any more ritualistic than sitting down to look at a sutta, and never will be. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #114386 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 8:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bangkok with K.Sujin, Jan 2011(7) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: :)) And just as with every happy "reinarnation" there is a flip-side - some of that "destructive kamma" at work too, so it is that there is lots of sorting-out to do as I go along. Like now, I'm trying to get rid of the Zoom function which keeps enlarging the text - must have been the pesky deeds of that last computer.... Yikes - do rupas have kamma? I guess that's an extra-credit question. :-) > -and Rob E, sorry for adding to your computer dilemmas... I think this is quite a good compromise however. My solution is to get everything, but I may have to wait until the next hell-state freezes over... :-) [no craving around here!] Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #114387 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 10:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >>> H: But on the face of it, since we don't have right understanding now, I guess we never will! :-) >> KH: But isn't that our right understanding? :-) > H: Only if you are emphasizing the "we". ---- KH: No, I am emphasising that there are only the presently arisen dhammas. Dhamas don't care if they are enlightened or not, they just arise, perform their functions, and cease forever. Even when there is enlightenment there is no being that is enlightened, there is just a conditioned citta called "enlightenment." It is no different from the citta that exists now; it just performs its function and ceases forever. So I am saying the secret is to understand the present reality, not to look forward to better times. --------------------- > H: Otherwise, of course not! Otherwise it is dreadfully wrong understanding. Mixing ordinary speech with Dhammic speech is a terrible practice. -------------------- KH: I was just stating the same message in a different way there is no permanent self. ----------------------------- > H: The Buddha taught worldlings who, to speak conventionally, became ariyans. The earlier states and conditions served to create the later ones. ------------------------------ KH: And all the while there never were any beings worldling or ariyan! There were only momentary, disinterested, dhammas. ------------------------------------- > H: The Buddha spoke of development and of the future. He wasn't insane. He just spoke the way people speak! The present of course doesn't become the future, but it does condition the future. ------------------------------------- KH: Yes and the future will be no different from the present. --------------------------- > H: Certainly a current unawakened state never becomes awakened! It never becomes anything, for it doesn't last at all, even for a moment. So what? We all know that. Unawakened is unawakened. What is the deep understanding in this? Fresh milk is fresh, and later curdled milk is curdled. They are not the same milk. But the later curdled "came from" the earlier fresh milk. (To use an analogy.) ------------------------ KH: Now you're sounding like me! :-) Ken H #114388 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2011 4:43 pm Subject: The Good Friend! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Good Friend can show the Way to Eternal Bliss!!! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha once said on beautiful friendship (Kalynamittat): Bhikkhus, as dawn is the initiator and messenger of the rising sun, exactly & even so too, Bhikkhus, is Good Friendship the forerunner and originator for the arising of the Noble Eightfold Way, since when a Bhikkhu has a good friend, it is to be expected that he will develop, cultivate, & complete this Noble Eightfold Way... And how does a Bhikkhu develop, cultivate & perfect this Noble Eightfold Way... A Bhikkhu first develops Right View , thereafter he develops Right Motivation, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort , Right Awareness, and finally Right Concentration, which all are based upon seclusion, disillusion, calming, stilling, ceasing, and which culminates in complete mental release.... It is in this way, friends, that a Bhikkhu, who has a good & mentally beautiful friend develops, cultivates & consummates this supreme Noble Eightfold Way! With good will for the entire cosmos, cultivate a boundless & infinite mind, Above, below, across & all around, unobstructed, freed of anger & hate. Sutta Nipta I, 8 The friend who is a helpmate, The friend both in happiness and woe, The friend, who gives good counsel, The friend, who sympathizes too! These four as friends the wise behold and cherish with deep devotion, as does a mother her own child. Digha Nikya 31 Who is hospitable, and friendly, Tolerant, generous and unselfish, A guide, an instructor, a leader, Such a one to honour may attain. Digha Nikya 31 One is not wise just because one speaks much. He who is peaceful, friendly & fearless is really the wise. Dhammapada 258 If you find a wise and clever friend, who leads a good and pure life, you should, overcoming all obstacles, keep his company joyously & aware. Dhammapada 328 Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. Book V [30] 45: The Way. Magga. Good & Beautiful Friendship. Kalynamittat 244. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html <....> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #114389 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 2:25 am Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa jonoabb Hi Robert E (and KenO, Alex, Phil and all) (After several weeks of being really tied up with new job (and new house move as well), I'm at last managing to get off some posts. Apologies for the delay. Nobody's been forgotten, though, and replies to all will come in due course! As usual, taking your posts in the order they were sent) (113626) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: Your question assumes that since I'm not 'doing' meditation I must be 'doing' pariyatti ;-)) That assumption is a mistaken one (but you are quite correct in suggesting that if I was, then it'd be taking me away from the present moment ;-)) > > [RE:]That seems like a very fine semantic distinction to me. You may not be "doing it" but you are studying and discussing Dhamma and the presumption is that will lead to greater pariyatti and eventually direct discernment of dhammas. So it's in play, whether being "done" or just "happening." How would you describe that process of development? > =============== J: As I'll be pointing out to KenO when I get to his posts, it's not correct to think of reading, studying and discussing Dhamma as activities that are necessarily kusala and thus as things that are to be "done" or are prerequisites for the development of the path. There can obviously be reading of suttas with wrong view of any strength, or discussing with a lot of mana, and so on. Development of the path only comes if, firstly, the teachings have been heard/read about in a way that is appropriate to one's level of understanding, and, following that, if what has been heard (and properly understood) is reflected upon, and so forth. None of this can be achieved by the doing of any particular activity. If one does happen to hear the teachings explained in a way that is meaningful for one's present level of understanding, it's the result of past kamma rather than, for example, deciding to listen to a particular recording, attend a discussion or read a book. The doing of the specific activity is not the determining factor (despite the fact that the hearing of the teachings will inevitably involve some or all such intentional activities). > =============== > RE: If you look at what is in front of you as visible object then you are going towards more understanding. The fact that it is called "monitor" in its accumulated apprehension doesn't take away from the visible object being present at any moment. Sure, if you mistake the concept for the object then you don't have understanding. If you separate them and understand the rupa and that which apprehends it, then you have more understanding. > =============== J: The dhamma that is visible object does not appear by looking at (that is to say, focussing on) a conventional object that is within the present field of vision. Such a practice confuses, in my view, the conventional with the absolute. It assumes that conventional objects are composed of, or can be broken down into, paramattha dhammas. But that's not the case. They are of a different register altogether. Jon #114390 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 2:29 am Subject: Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro kenhowardau Hi Robert E, -------- <. . .> > > KH: There is nothing that continues on, and so right understanding has to be now or never. > What about the accumulations that are passed on from citta to citta? Do they not "continue on?" Is there any chance that you will answer this question sometime in this lifetime, Ken? :-) -------- KH: Nothing continues on; each citta is entirely new. It *inherits* its nature from the long line of cittas that went before. ------------------------ <. . .> >> KH: The sutta is telling us that right effort (for crossing the flood) is simply any effort that arises with right understanding. > RE: What in the sutta suggests that message to you, Ken H.? Is there something in the sutta which you feel relays that specific message, or is it just your own sense of what is right that you are imposing on the sutta? ------------------------ KH: A bit of both: it is partly what I remember from previous DSG discussions on this sutta, and partly my understanding of the Dhamma as a whole. I think the sutta is basically saying that the Middle Way is neither of the two extremes. "Striving" and "standing still" are symbolic of annihilationism and eternalism (I can never remember which stands for which), and so the sutta is similar to several other suttas on the same topic. Other parts of the Tipitaka describe effort of all kinds in identical terms. They are inherently different, of course, but apart from that they all fit same description (energy, force, etc). The only way of describing kusala effort differently from akusala effort is to point out that one arises with kusala citta and the other with akusala citta. Similarly with right effort and wrong effort, one arises with right understanding and the other with wrong understanding. ------------ <. . .> >> KH: To be a potential jhana student, a person first has to know kusala from only a one in a hundred or a thousand will ever attain the first jhana. > RE: I would appreciate the location of that discussion in the Vism, if you know where it is. I did not see any such statistical analysis in the anapanasati section of the Vism when I read the discussion. > However, I appreciate the above discussion - it does give a clear view of what you think are the criteria/conditions for approaching jhana and the subject of breathing. ------------- KH: I used to have a reference for the statistical bit, but can't find it at the moment. It continues in the same vein for the first to second jhana etc., saying that only "one in a hundred or a thousand" will make the cut each time. And so by the time you get to jhana mastery (which is what you would need in order to use jhana as a vehicle for vipassana) the odds against making it are extremely long. -------------------- > RE: I would ask you this - I'm still waiting for an answer from several people, but I don't think I've ever gotten one - why does the anapanasati sutta open with a discussion of many, many beginning monks being taught anapanasati, and many beginning monks being trained by a variety of other more accomplished monks. In other words, a big 'ol meditation retreat where everyone is practicing and learning anapanasati, if it is so amazingly rare? -------------------- KH: I suppose it was an amazingly rare event. :-) ---------------------------- > RE: Do you think that all the one-in-a-millions were gathered there at that time, and all the "beginners" were already accomplished samatha practitioners? ---------------------------- KH: Yes, I think so, but our appreciation of the one-in-a-million statistic has to take into account the long time that had elapsed since the previous Buddha-sasana. There would have been a long queue of great sages with the necessary kamma to be reborn in human form, in India, at the same time as the Buddha. --------------------------------------------- > RE: One doesn't get the impression that this was the only time and place where such a gathering was held. > Also, why were all these beginners being taught basic breathing meditation? Are you saying that this is such an advanced object that the "beginners" at breathing were actually already great adepts at meditation with other objects? It seems very unlikely to me, and is not stated or implied in the sutta. ---------------------------------------------- KH: I could make a guess at the answer, but don't want to add to the confusion. Ask someone else. :-) ------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: The only real practices that ever exist are dhammas performing their functions. >> Kusala comes first, breath counting comes second. So when there is breath-counting with kusala concentration, it is without any desire for attaining, or even any idea of attaining. It is just a part of that jhana student's everyday lifestyle. > RE: But indded you are saying that once kusala is known and understood, one is able to practice without self-view. Well that is interesting, even if it is remote for most of us. ------------------------- KH: Sometimes it seems that way. A jhana master, for example, can enter and leave jhana "at will" and vipassana practitioners are sometimes said to deliberately choose one kind of dhamma-arammana in preference to another. But these things are always outward appearances only. In reality everything is determined entirely by conditions, and ariyans have no more control over how they will practice, or over which type of dhamma will arise next, than you or I have. ---------------------------------- <. . .> > > KH: The factors that actually lead to enlightenment are association with wise friends, hearing the true Dhamma, wisely considering, and directly understanding the characteristics of a conditioned dhamma. > RE: Then why did Buddha deal so extensively with other path factors, and why are they even included in the 8 arms of the path? Why does he deal so extensively with meditation, jhana, anapanasati and even satipatthana? Why not just say that the arising of the momentary dhamma is the entire path, and that none of these other things matter? There doesn't seem to be any reason to discuss these things at all if you are correct. ----------------------------------- KH: That's right: if we could understand the present moment the way it really is we would have no need for anything more. The need to control and the need to "do something" come from ignorance. ------------------- <. . .> >> KH: partly right understanding and partly ritualistic looking and lying in wait. But that's not possible. Right understanding and rituals are incompatible, they can't go together. > RE: Your way of describing this - looking and lying in wait - is quite prejudiced against the actuality of meditation, which is not "looking and lying in wait," ------------------- KH: I was trying to be fair and unprejudiced. Many times, when it has been pointed out that Dhammas are too quick to catch (by the time you can decide to catch them they have already gone), meditators at DSG have replied, "But if the mind has been quietened, and freed from thoughts etc., then it will be ready in advance." They have also been known to say, "Just look!" So I think my summation "looking and lying in wait" was a fair one. Ken H #114391 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 2:36 am Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa jonoabb Hi Robert E (113626) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > > =============== > > > [RE:] That's one way of looking at it. There's nothing there to indicate that the person is already skilled in samatha. When the anapanasati sutta says that "He breathes in, calming bodily fabrications," anyone can do that. They may calm down a little or a lot, but it's not an advanced instruction. > > > =============== > > > > J: The first part of the Anapanasati Sutta describes the persons present; from memory, they were all monks of some considerable attainment. > > [RE:] As i mentioned to you before, the intro to the sutta mentions the opposite - that there were advanced monks, some of whom were training 10 or more monks, and others who were training 30 or 40 monks. These monks being trained are described as "new monks," ie, beginners. The place was rank with beginners studying anapanasati under the guidance of the more experienced monks. Here's the passage from the anapanasati sutta: > > "On that occasion the elder monks were teaching & instructing. Some elder monks were teaching & instructing ten monks, some were teaching & instructing twenty monks, some were teaching & instructing thirty monks, some were teaching & instructing forty monks. The new monks, being taught & instructed by the elder monks, were discerning grand, successive distinctions." > =============== J: Here is the list of monks present at the giving of the Anapanasati Sutta, as set out by the Buddha at the beginning of the sutta: "In this community of monks there are: - monks who are arahants ... - monks who, with the wasting away of the five lower fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes] ... - monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners ... - monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners ... - monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for awakening... the noble eightfold path ... - monks who remain devoted to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... equanimity... [the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy ... - monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing." [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html] No beginners there! In any event, the new monks being instructed were, it says, "discerning grand, successive distinctions". So while they may have been new, they were certainly not beginners. > =============== > [RE:] It is mentioned that the monk should get rid of the "minor impediments" beforehand, that is true, but in terms of breathing practice it is step 1. > =============== J: Yes, but getting rid of the "minor impediments" is itself accomplished by the development of samatha to a certain level (how otherwise are they to be got rid of?). Jon #114392 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 2:37 am Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa jonoabb Hi Robert E (113626) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > > > [J:] The purpose is to indicate how, for those experienced and skilled in samatha bhavana based on the foulness of the body, vipassana bhavana is something else yet again. > > > > > > [RE:] Don't quite get this. Can you re-quote the relevant stanza and explain a bit more? > > > =============== > > > > J: Er, will have to go back and find your original post. Will get back to you after I've dug it up. You have a short respite on this one ;-)) > > [RE:] Well thank the bodhisattas. I must be experiencing a brief moment of positive vipaka. Quite rare these days. Thank you as well. > =============== J: ;-)) Rather than search back through the old posts, let me take a passage from the Anapanasati Sutta that I think raises a similar interpretation issue. The main part of the sutta begins as follows: ********************* "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit? "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.[1] Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. ... "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' ... ********************* [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html] The question is as to which of the following (or some other) the Buddha is saying: A. A person who sees the value in developing insight should start with mindfulness of breathing, which in turn starts with going to the wilderness and sitting cross-legged, etc. The practice of this mindfulness of breathing will assist in the development of insight, especially when it has been developed to a high degree. B. A person who is already adept at mindfulness of breathing may, while continuing with that development, also develop insight to the highest levels (with the possibility that if and when enlightenment is attained it will be with jhana as basis). You I think would opt for A above (or some variation of it), while I would see B as being the orthodox Theravadan interpretation. So going back to the comment in my earlier post where I said, in the context of the development of samatha with foulness of the body as object ... "The purpose is to indicate how, for those experienced and skilled in samatha bhavana based on the foulness of the body, vipassana bhavana is something else yet again." ... the purpose of the teaching in both contexts, in my view, is not to instruct in the development of samatha per se, but to explain how, for those already well advanced in samatha, that development and the development of insight may proceed in tandem. Hoping this clarifies (and makes sense). Jon #114393 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 2:42 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Modes of Materiality jonoabb Hi Robert E (113628) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > But anyway, here's a quote from Dhp XVIII: > "Make an island for yourself! Strive hard and become wise!" > =============== J: Yes, but the question is how the statement/exhortation "Strive hard and become wise!" is to be understood. You said in an earlier post, about expressions like these, that "we don't have to wonder too strenuously what he meant. It's obvious in such a case." I wonder if that's really so. If the statement is indeed suggesting the undertaking of an activity, then we'd need to identify which particular activity that would be. Yet none is indicated, let alone mentioned. To me it seems more like an exhortation to develop kusala of a particular (high) level, without going into detail as to what that may involve. This may be because the particular audience being addressed already knew exactly what was being referred to. > =============== > And another from DN 16: the Parinibbana Sutta: > ""Impermanent, subject to change, are component things. Strive on with heedfulness!" Those were the Buddha's last words - an instruction, an admonition, a command. > =============== J: Yes, an exhortation; but, as above, with no special reference to the doing of any kind of action. > =============== > > > [RE:] I don't think "Breathing in long, he is aware that he is breathing in long" requires a deep reinterpretation. > > > =============== > > > > J: Well for a start, without the context of the sutta as a whole, there could be no chance of having any idea what was meant by that passage. > > [RE:] Haven't we both read it? What do you think the context is? It is the preliminary, first instruction in the sutta that is involved with the actual exercise of being mindfully aware of the breath. > =============== J: I'm not sure how you read an *instruction* into the words "Breathing in long, he is aware that he is breathing in long". An interpretation to that effect seems to be doing other than taking the words at their face value ;-)) In any event, there's no indication of what is meant by "aware that he is breathing in long", or what is so special about that. Presumably it means something more than it's face-value meaning. > =============== > [RE:] Identifying long from sort breaths is a gross and basic practice and would be a way of training someone for more subtle practices, as actually does take place in the sutta. It's the first instruction in mindfulness of breathing practice, for beginners. > =============== J: So you're saying that step 1 is identifying long breaths from short ones in the conventional manner? Hmm, that's not something I'd have thought the very exalted audience of the Anapanasati Sutta needed to be instructed on ;-)) Jon #114394 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 2:48 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Modes of Materiality jonoabb Hi Robert E (113628) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > From the sutta: > ""Tell me, dear sir, how you crossed over the flood." > > "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." > > "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?" > > "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."" > > We are told about the commentary's interpretation: > "Commentary informs us that the Buddha teaches the devata in terms of the paradox in order to subdue her pride." The description goes on to say that this is in order to teach her about right effort. I agree with the second part. > > The first statement may or may not be true, but it certainly has nothing to do with what the Buddha says in the sutta. It is a commentary that is ascribing a totally different motive to the Buddha than the teaching he gives in the sutta. In my opinion, the sutta has something very important to teach, and it's not a personal lesson to the devata about her pride in asking a simple and clear question, but is about right effort. It describes a middle way approach to samsara, not fighting it and not succumbing to it. > =============== J: You may not like the commentary explanation, but you can't say it's inconsistent with, let alone contradicts, the sutta text ;-)) > =============== > > J: To me, it's not a matter of accepting or not accepting the commentaries as the final authority, but of identifying what the commentarial position is. > > [RE:] And what status does that position have for you, once identified? That is my question. > =============== J: Something like a working hypothesis. > =============== > > J: Yes, and for this reason there are then the sub-commentaries to explain the commentaries. You see, they thought of everything ;-)) > > [RE:] Yes, I see it's "commentaries all the way down." No problem with infinite regress there. ;-) > =============== J: Ahh, infinite regress. Another of those western philosophical concepts that folks who don't like the commentaries are fond of throwing around ;-)) Jon #114395 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 2:50 am Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa jonoabb Hi Ken O (113637) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > ... > KO: Nope, the text never said that they are considered path factors when they > arise with a moment of satiipatthana unless you are saying satipatthana at that > moment is vipassana. When did in the commentariain text said that only nama and > rupa appear then it is satipatthana. The commentaries when describing, > satipatthana would normally start as a concept and not nama and rupa and > indicate the understanding of nama and rupa as an important factor as well. > =============== J: OK, interesting. Would you mind giving an example of this so that I can see what you're getting at. I infer from the above that in your view the objects of satipatthana and vipassana may include concepts. Would you mind saying something about what kinds of concepts that would be, and what it is exactly that is known about them. Any particular sutta refs? Thanks. As regards the commentarial assertion that only dhammas can be object of satipatthana, I think Sarah has already quoted a passage from the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta that illustrates this. There's also the section in the Vism (at the beginning of Part III 'Panna') that explains how the khandhas are the field for the development of insight. > =============== > KO: Panna that arise with samantha bhavana is only for knowing the difference > in kusala and akusala, I don't know where you get this from because I have yet > seen this in the text. > > I konw there are two vehicles stated clearly in the Visud, so the serenity > vehicle should not be valid basing on your assumption. > =============== J: I don’t think that follows at all. The 'serenity vehicle' means samatha/jhana *as well as* insight. Insight is required regardless of the manner in which enlightenment was attained. Jon #114396 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 3:01 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses jonoabb Hi Robert E (113649) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: I think you've misunderstood my comment. I was not dismissing the passages you were referring to, but saying that there was more to them that you were suggesting. > > [RE:] Just "more to," or "different?" The question is not whether one can also get lessons on namas/rupas in such a passage, but whether you include or dismiss the conventional teaching that is being explicitly given. I think it's easy to mistake the Buddha's added comments on dhammas, which he probably was trying to point out whenever possible, as a summary or statement that dhammas is *all* he is talking about, when the body of a given sutta is about a conventional area. > =============== J: Well the commentaries give a different explanation, so are you sure the matter is as explicit as you think it is? But in any event, if the development of the path does indeed involve the development of awareness of both conventional objects and dhammas, then there must be in the suttas or texts an explanation of, or at least some reference to, the difference between the two (otherwise there'd be no point in making the distinction), and I'm not aware of any such explanation or reference. > =============== > [RE:] The commentary is skillfully and seamlessly moving between the paramatha and conventional views of reality to show the interdependence of the two. ... > > But I believe that what happens, and what the commentary is acknowledging very clearly in my view, is that it is because of the nature of dhammas that are *experienced but experienced indirectly* by deluded conceptually-influenced perception that we get a kind of indirect result as regards the conventional objects. ... > Deluded experience "B" echoes actual experience "A." Deluded consciousness will see the body as a solid object that is undergoing changes, but what is actually happening is that particular dhammas are arising or not arising, and because of this, certain other qualities that are dependent on them are arising or failing to arise. ... > > The commentator seems to acknowledge the relation of this dual reality, and the importance that Buddha placed on the fact that this changing of the conventional body cannot be changed and that it must come to resemble the corpse. In doing so, there seems to be an acknowledgement that this understanding of the inevitability of the falling away and decay of one's own body is a mundane insight that is a part of the path, rather than only the view of dhammas being the path. > =============== J: Firstly, full marks for developing a case ;-)) However, the problem with an interpretation to this effect is that what you refer to as our "deluded experience" of the world is going to be examined with the same deluded mind. It is only the arising of moments of insight with dhammas as object that can counter ignorance and wrong view. Jon #114397 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 3:19 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses jonoabb Hi Robert E (113649) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: As I've commented before, your understanding of the Buddha's word is equally an interpretation. > > [RE:] I don't believe that's true. I don't think that taking words literally is the same degree of interpretation as giving an alternate explanation that is not in the original words, ... > =============== J: If you're referring to the words of the first noble truth, ending with "in short, the 5 khandhas of clinging are suffering", it's not a matter of a literal interpretation (yours) vs. a non-literal one (the orthodox commentarial position), but of the true meaning of that closing phrase. > =============== > [RE:] I think we could take a close look at this sutta and see who is substituting words for the Buddha's words, and who is looking at the words themselves as they are given and sticking closely to the meanings of those words. > =============== J: Yes, happy to do that ... > =============== > [RE:] Leaving aside historical meanings and differences in translation, I would use the rule that in lieu of other evidence the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. That would be the explanation that attempts to take the basic most inherent meaning of the words that are given, rather than giving an explanation that requires a more complex explanation or that is further away from the words. If the more complex or further explanation is to be taken as the correct one, evidence has to be given for why this is the case. That is straighforward enough. > =============== J: ... but would rather it were without preconditions such as the 'rules' you mention here ;-)) > =============== > [RE:] For instance, if the Vism says "The practitioner should only count breaths until he has gained the ability to firmly fix the mind on the breath, then he should abandon this technique," [to paraphrase,] then the closest explanation is what is actually said. If I say "What I got out of this is that the meditator counts the breaths to fix the mind on the breath. When this is accomplished he stops and moves on to another technique" I am sticking to exactly what is said and what it obviously means by definition. ... > =============== J: Yes, but if you don't mind me saying so, we would need to take the actual words of the text as our starting point, rather than your paraphrase of them ;-)) > =============== > [RE:] If you were then to say "What this really means is that he who has already had experience with samatha takes up this technique when he is already quite advanced," and there is nothing in the passage that says that, then your explanation is a greater and further off interpretation of what is actually said, and that being the case, you need some other source of evidence why your explanation is correct. Buddhaghosa didn't say it, so if it's the case, what is the evidence? > =============== J: Happy to respond once we have the actual text in front of us ;-)) > =============== > [RE:] The same is true with these suttas. If Buddha really meant that his talk was about the dhammas that arise and not about the mortality and dissolution of the body, what is the evidence? I'm sticking to what Buddha actually said, you are not in this case. > =============== J: The 'evidence' differs from one sutta to another (as one might expect). Difficult to discuss in the abstract. > =============== > [RE:] Even in the commentary, the commentator makes the point while discussing the dhammas involved that the body will turn blue and bloated - that is about the body, *not* about the dhammas, and that is not in passing, but is the point that your passage from the commentary rests on. It's the point that is made, that without the dhammas involved the body turns blue and bloated, which is not a property of dhammas but of the body as a conventional object. So how do you take this into account, and what is the evidence that your interpretation, which is further removed from the preponderance of the actual words, and the points that are made by them, is correct? > =============== J: In the case of the person who is developing both samatha (at its higher levels) and vipassana, there will at times be concepts as object and at times dhammas. The text is to be read with this in mind. > =============== > [RE:] Nobody is denying the connection. You are in fact denying the connection by saying there are only dhammas being discussed, and not the conventional objects that the Buddha is explicitly talking about through most of the sutta. I never said that the Buddha is not talking about, mentioning, or tying his subject into the reality of dhammas. I think he is talking about both and using them interchangably. > =============== J: Yes, I appreciate that is what you've been saying. We differ on this, and so of course also on the significance of the words "in short". > =============== > [RE:] You are saying that the talk about conventional objects and the conventional path are at best preliminary, and are not really the path. > =============== J: The commentarial position, as I understand it, is that the reference to conventional states (birth, illness, aging and death) is in fact, and is to be understood as, a reference to the underlying dhammas, although the statement also of course holds true at the conventional level. > =============== > [RE:] I am saying that the Buddha spoke about the conventional path and tied it into the paramatha understanding at certain points. When he talks about the 5 kandhas, that applies to both conventional and paramatha objects. It's all about the 5 kandhas and anatta, but one can understand this both in life as we experience it and on the level of individual dhammas. And the Buddha ties ultimate reality into everyday reality with great skill. That's why he gave the suttas and didn't only give the Abhidhamma. It is the sutta correspondencies that create the bridge for worldlings to understand both their life and the reality of dhammas, as their awareness unfolds. > > Anyway, I look forward to your response - when you have the time. Thanks for all the exercise! > =============== J: Well, it's certainly taken me some time (for which I apologise). But thanks to you also for the exercise. Jon #114398 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 1:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New iPhone Application: iPuja Pro upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/5/2011 1:21:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >>> H: But on the face of it, since we don't have right understanding now, I guess we never will! :-) >> KH: But isn't that our right understanding? :-) > H: Only if you are emphasizing the "we". ---- KH: No, I am emphasising that there are only the presently arisen dhammas. Dhamas don't care if they are enlightened or not, they just arise, perform their functions, and cease forever. ----------------------------------------------------------- They perform their function in zero time? I think not. You view these as separate realities that "do" things, agents! I consider such alleged entities as little selves that arise as *true realities* and are then annihilated. To me, that is an atta-view and an annhilationist one as well. I don't share that view. ---------------------------------------------------------- Even when there is enlightenment there is no being that is enlightened, there is just a conditioned citta called "enlightenment." It is no different from the citta that exists now; it just performs its function and ceases forever. ----------------------------------------------------------- If there were such citta-things, they would indeed differ significantly among themselves! The difference between awakened and unawakened is radical and dramatic - all the difference in the world. ----------------------------------------------------------- So I am saying the secret is to understand the present reality, not to look forward to better times. --------------------- > H: Otherwise, of course not! Otherwise it is dreadfully wrong understanding. Mixing ordinary speech with Dhammic speech is a terrible practice. -------------------- KH: I was just stating the same message in a different way – there is no permanent self. ------------------------------------------------------------- That issue is a red herring. No one here is asserting otherwise. ---------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------- > H: The Buddha taught worldlings who, to speak conventionally, became ariyans. The earlier states and conditions served to create the later ones. ------------------------------ KH: And all the while there never were any beings – worldling or ariyan! There were only momentary, disinterested, dhammas. -------------------------------------------------------------- Conventionally speaking, yes. Ultimately, there are not even these. It is only a convention to think and speak of such. ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- > H: The Buddha spoke of development and of the future. He wasn't insane. He just spoke the way people speak! The present of course doesn't become the future, but it does condition the future. ------------------------------------- KH: Yes and the future will be no different from the present. ------------------------------------------------------------- That is utterly absurd. Then the great Brahma was right in telling the Buddha not to teach!! And more essentially: If A "ceases" only to be replaced by A, there is no anicca at all. Without change, without difference, there is no impermanence. You are denying the first of the tilakkhana. ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------- > H: Certainly a current unawakened state never becomes awakened! It never becomes anything, for it doesn't last at all, even for a moment. So what? We all know that. Unawakened is unawakened. What is the deep understanding in this? Fresh milk is fresh, and later curdled milk is curdled. They are not the same milk. But the later curdled "came from" the earlier fresh milk. (To use an analogy.) ------------------------ KH: Now you're sounding like me! :-) ------------------------------------------------------------- In part. (That only shows that you are not *entirely* hopeless!! LOLOL!) ------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H ===================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #114399 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2011 5:28 am Subject: Re: should one try one's best? jonoabb Hi Robert E (113662) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: In the context of kamma (as cause) and vipaka (as result), both are mental dhammas. Kamma is the mental factor of cetana, while vipaka is the consciousness that experiences an object through one of the sense-doors. > > [RE:] Well that's interesting. I'm not really clear about it, but my understanding is that kamma patha is dependent on the *action being completed.* For instance, if someone intends to murder someone else, AND they carry out the action of killing, BUT they fail to complete the murder successfully, kamma patha has not been completed, and the kamma involved doesn't carry the the full weight that the completed action would. Would you disagree with this? [I think I got this from Sarah, so you can let me know who wins this dispute. :-)) ] > =============== J: Sounds OK to me. There is still result, but not of the same weight there would have been had the deed been fully performed. > =============== > [RE:] As for vipaka, that's a uniquely dhamma-oriented translation of vipaka. Again, I'm not an expert, but my understanding and I think most people's understanding is that vipaka is the result that the person encounters as the result of their kamma. If kamma is intention, and the vipaka is the resultant experience, then of course that involves the cittas that experience the "unpleasant or pleasant sensory objects" are involved, but whatever the concrete aspects of the experience are, such as being born in unpleasant circumstances, are also part of the vipaka, are they not? > =============== J: Yes, being born in unpleasant circumstances, etc, is the result of kamma performed in previous lives. Strictly speaking it's not vipaka, although as you say is generally referred to as such. But I think it's worth knowing, and reminding ourselves, that in the absolute sense vipaka is the *experiencing* of pleasant or unpleasant objects through the sense-doors. For instance, a person could be born into very favourable circumstances but still have a lot of bodily pain, or born poor but experience good health and comfortable surroundings for his whole life. Jon