#116200 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:14 pm Subject: Kusala intention (was, Re: The clansman who is a beginner ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (115268) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > [RE:] My understanding of the teaching on kamma, prior to dsg, was that kamma's results can be delayed or instantaneous, or somewhere inbetween. The idea that almost all kamma expresses as sensory experience in a future lifetime seems unusual to me. I would like to see where this teaching on kamma is derived from, sutta or commentary. > =============== J: I don't have a view on what percentage of kamma brings its result in the same or in a later lifetime (and I don't see this question as having any great bearing on the development of the path). However, the impression gained from reading the texts is in favour of results coming in later lives, in that there are many more references to that than to same-lifetime results. > =============== > > J: Even were this the case, how is it to be known that a given experience is the result of a given prior deed? As far as I know, there's nothing in the teachings on this, except in the context of one of the super powers. > > [RE:] It would just be something that was more obvious in certain cases, and in others could perhaps be inferred. > =============== J: But what I don't see is how it could be obvious. Could you give an example of what you have in mind by an instance of kamma and vipaka that would be obvious. And is this something you feel you've been able to confirm by experience? > =============== > [RE:] BTW, I'm curious what you would consider convincing inferential knowledge of kamma. What form would that take? > =============== J: I have nothing in mind other than what I've mentioned already. I would assume it comes with the development of insight. > =============== > > J: If there is the correct development of the path, there will be a clearer understanding of dhammas and their characteristics. > > > > Nothing could be more worthwhile than this. > > [RE:] Well, that's fine, but doesn't say much about direct understanding of kamma. > =============== J: A direct understanding of kamma is not a prerequisite for the development of awareness/insight. So I don't see the need to feel that one has got kamma/vipaka all sorted out before there can be the beginning of the development of the path (i.e., awareness of presently arising dhammas). Jon #116201 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:16 pm Subject: Kusala intention (was, Re: The clansman who is a beginner ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (115268) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > [RE:] Otherwise, should I believe the commentary anyway, and say "Well the commentary said it and they know better than me" when it seems like the sutta has been used as a convenient, unrelated jumping-off point? Even an arahant could go off onto a theme that they thought was a good one. It doesn't mean it is a true commentary in such a case. I may be speaking out of turn, but I am just saying what seems clear to me on its face. So I await a more knowledgeable explanation, if you can provide one. > > > =============== > > > > J: It is never necessary (or appropriate) to accept the texts unquestioningly. (Nor for that matter should the texts be rejected because what they say cannot immediately be made sense of.) > > [RE:] I'm sure they have plenty of value in any case, but what worries me is a view that develops based on a preponderence of commentarial view that is all dhamma-oriented and reinterprets everything the Buddha says in a completely different light. I like to go back to the Buddha's own words, perhaps with more light shed by a commentary, but not accepting a substitute explanation over and above what is said in the original. And I think that can definitely happen when a specific interpretation is put forth in one way or another over and over again. > =============== J: What you call the "dhamma(s)-oriented view" is the actual commentarial view (not a view *based on* the commentaries). Now, if you think about it for a moment, it's either the way things are or it's not. I don't think there's any ground for the teachings to be partly dhamma(s)-oriented and partly not. Jon #116202 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:27 pm Subject: Kusala intention (was, Re: The clansman who is a beginner ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (115268) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: The meditation that I think you have in mind was not something exclusive to monks who were followers of the Buddha. So the question then is whether it was central to the development of the path he taught (I of course would say that it wasn't). > > [RE:] I would disagree with that. What Buddha taught was distinct from the meditation being done around him. He taught satipatthana and insight meditation which were not practiced in that form or with that understanding. His use of jhana as foundation for insight was also unique, quite distinct from yogic states of samadhi. > =============== J: Well, the Buddha certainly taught *satipatthana* and he certainly taught *insight development (bhavana)*. But whether he taught *satipatthana meditation* and *insight meditation* is the interpretation issue we have been discussing in this and other threads. If by meditation you mean the Pali term bhavana ("development"), as in samatha bhavana (the development of tranquility) and vipassana bhavana (the development of insight), then I think it's preferable to just speak of samatha or satipatthana or insight (or insight development). If by meditation you mean something else (for example, a particular way of developing samatha or vipassana or satipatthana, i.e., a particular technique or set of techniques, or activities to be undertaken), then you are referring to part but not the whole of samatha bhavana, vipassana bhavana or satipatthana. In this case I would question the usefulness of making a distinction that is not made in the texts (i.e., development of samatha/vipassana that involves meditation vs. development that does not), thereby emphasising one particular means of the development of sati and insight over their development in general. > =============== > > J: Well some (but by no means all) did do what you call meditate, > > [RE:] What I call meditate? Are you really so anti-meditation that you don't even acknowledge that it really exists? Do you think it is a mistake to call sitting and doing a meditation practice "meditation," as millions of people do? This bothers me a bit, so I apologize for my tone, but it really seems that this level of rejection of the factual existence of a great Buddhist tradition is a bit over the top. > =============== J: My only concern here is what the Buddha actually taught. In suttas like the Anapanasati Sutta, did he teach a sitting practice for satipatthana and for insight development, or did he teach satipatthana and insight development for monks who were highly developed in samatha and who habitually spent a large part of the day sitting? We know that in the Buddha's time, a large number of monks within the Buddha's dispensation had developed samatha to very high levels including jhana, and spent a lot of time in secluded places, sitting. When the Buddha taught to these monks, he did so in terms of their existing and potential attainments. So in this case it was satipatthana for those who are already experiencing, or have the potential to experience, jhana citta. As to whether what those monks were doing can be called meditation, to my understanding they had the daily routine they did (i.e., taking themselves off to a remote place, spending the afternoon sitting) because they had developed samatha to a high degree already and it was kusala citta all the way, and not because samatha was regarded as a sitting practice or because sitting was regarded as the way to develop kusala citta for a person lacking its development. To elaborate on that, from what I've read, these monks were developing samatha the whole day (and night), not just when they had finished their meal, done their daily chores and were free to sit. For them it was not a matter of samatha being a specifically 'sitting practice'. To my knowledge the Buddha did not recommend to non-sitting persons that they should take up a sitting practice. > =============== > [RE:] You may not approve of meditation for your understanding of Dhamma but we can at least acknowledge that it is the understanding of a large part of the path for most Buddhists of every tradition, including Theravada, and is even spoken of prominently in parts of the Abdhidhamma. > =============== J: To my understanding, what is spoken of in the Abhidhamma and elsewhere in the texts is not specifically a sitting practice. And for reasons explained above, even for the monks described in the suttas, the development of samatha/jhana was not specifically a sitting thing. As regards the general understanding among students of the teachings, yes, I acknowledge I'm in a minority on this view ;-)) > =============== > [RE:] Non-Buddhist monks did not practice Buddhist meditation. Buddha taught satipatthana and anapanasati as Buddhist techniques for developing insight and understanding of the reality of the moment leading to enlightenment. > =============== J: Again, on the use of 'meditation'. If by meditation you mean the 'technique' taught by the Buddha for developing insight and understanding of the reality of the moment, then that is a particular interpretation of the suttas. Nobody thought to call it that at the time or afterwards in the commentarial texts. I would agree that it is fashionable nowadays to use the term in translations of the texts, but that is a relatively recent usage. > =============== > [RE:] The anapanasati and satipatthana suttas and many many other suttas spell out the steps of Buddhist meditation in its many aspects and applications, and it is not unclear or in any doubt that this is a big part of his path, complete with instructions. > =============== J: Well again, as I said at the outset, this is the very question of interpretation we've been discussing. Sorry, but I do not see the Satipatthana Sutta as giving instructions for meditation as part of the development of the path. Jon #116203 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:35 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was, The clansman ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (115270) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > [RE:] The way you're saying it makes a more extreme case than I am making. I never said that "any effort exerted...will be kusala," just that the practices given by the Buddha, done with the right intention, are right practices. There may be all sorts of pitfalls and factors that will make one's practice correct or incorrect at any given time, but in the long run, adhering to certain principles will point one in the right direction. It just depends on what you think the correct principles are, and in that one is on their own. > > > > It's a comforting idea, but it's not what the teachings say. > > I'm not interested in being comforted, but I would like to know what your basis is for saying that it's not what the teachings say. Buddha talked consistently about the practices of anapanasati and satipatthana, and if you think that is not what they say, I would appreciate some sort of citation that directly contradicts my view. > =============== J: I know of no instance in the teachings of the Buddha saying that he is specifying practices to be done and that, if done with the right intention, are right practices, or that it is a matter of adhering to certain principles and this will point one in the right direction. And I think if we look at, for example, the Satipatthana Sutta, it seems inconsistent with such an interpretation. Taking the first 2 parts of the section on contemplation of the body: ****************************** (i). Mindfulness of Breathing "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty place, sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps his body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him. "Mindful, he breathes in, and mindful, he breathes out. ... ****************************** If we take "mindfulness" and "mindful" to refer to actual moments of kusala (including of course where these occur only intermittently), then there is no mention of any preliminary practice to be done. The kusala quality is either present or it's not. At those moments when it's present, then satipatthana is occurring, when it's not then it's not satipatthana. ****************************** (ii). The Modes of Deportment "And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. ****************************** Likewise here, if there are moments or extended periods of understanding, then it's satipatthana, it not then not. Then there is the passage that follows each of these parts within the section: ****************************** "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or ... externally, or ... internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-things in the body, or ...dissolution-things..., or ... origination-and-dissolution-things.... Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance, and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. Thus, also, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body." "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally ... Thus, also, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body." ****************************** Again, no practice is being given to be done. Just a description of kusala of this kind being developed. This is just one sutta, I know, but I think similar considerations apply to the reading of other suttas. Hope this clarifies why I do not see the Buddha's teaching as being one of practices to be followed. Jon #116204 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:10 pm Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening ptaus1 i Alex, > > pt: Yes, that case is possible. The scary bit is the case when just one >"mistake" equates to arising of wrong view about the path. That would >set >you up on the wrong path from then on, and possibly influence the >thinking >and practice for many lifetimes, until someone actually points >out the >mistake and it is actually understood as wrong. > > A: So do you propose not even trying because one can make mistakes? pt: Alex, I tried to explain that the whole issue has nothing to do with trying, not trying, doing, not doing, etc. Rather, it simply has to do with understanding right now regardless of what is being done or not done, tried or not tried, right now. In other words, encouragements to pay attention to what's occuring now (kusala or akusala, right or wrong view, etc) are simply supposed to encourage the arising of understanding. They shouldn't be taken as criticism, belittling or anything of the sort. At least imo. Say you are taking a walk with someone on a slippery road, you'd say "be careful", and you'd say it just in case it helps, because you care, so not ouf of spite, even if the other person is not actually falling down at the time. > A: How do you propose one does anapanasati as satipatthana for example? Do you think that I believe in a Eternal Soul (Atta) that can do thing, or that dhammas are permanent (nicca) and pleasant (sukha)? pt: I'm sorry if my comments sounded personal. What you believe is your bisiness, and only you can know that in the first place. My duty as a friend is to remind you about the possible problems you might encounter (taking akusala for kusala, mistaking wrong view for right view, etc). It doesn't mean that you are in fact having these problems, but I find such reminders helpful, so reminding you about the same seems like the best thing I can do. > A: Do you think that every Buddhist who meditates believes in nicca, sukha, Atta? I hear from KenH and others such warnings, but not how to do it right. Or do you think there is this conspiracy to smuggle in Anapanasati, 32 bodyparts, 10 corpses contemplation, and other satipatthana exercises (while omitting the warnings not to do them) into the Dhamma and commentaries such as VsM? Buddha and Ven. Buddhaghosa didn't seem to put such kinds of warnings when talking about these. And neither is there any hint that one must already have this habit in order to start doing the practice. pt: I think the practices you mention above have to do with the arising of the understanding. I.e. if there's no understanflding arising, then it can't really be called a practice, in the sense of bhavana, or development basically. It's up to each one of us to be honest with himself about how often understanding arises. > A: Don't you think that Suttas and VsM have sufficient instructions? We can always refer to them, and I would prefer DIRECT quotations. > If the danger in intentional development is because it can grow self view, then: Don't study Dhamma because you might misinterpret it and get even more deluded and set back even more on the path. Don't do anything because that might set you back. Don't put on the cloth (that controls the temperature of the external body), don't eat or drink because that can delude one that Self eats and drinks... Don't get up from the bed because one can misinterpret it as Self who can move limbs and alter the location of rupas, not to mention direct awareness at such non-existing concepts as walking with right or left foot. Furthermore, everything happens due to conditions. Great. Live the life as you want (which requires doing things, often minor akusala), but don't meditate (potentially maha kusala) as that would be doing things. Doing acting with kilesas is permissible, but never is it fine to resist them and develop kusala. pt: I hope I managed to explain above that considering this issue in terms of doing or not doing things completely misses the point. If that's not clear, then please let me know and I'll try to explain better. > A: Sure everything is conditioned and there is no Freedom of Will. Does this rejects the fact that things do occur, and actions have results? Isn't it better that kusala, especially maha kusala, occurs rather than akusala? Does this reject the need for effort and abandoning akusala things? pt: These things are not under dispute. Rather, we are trying to get to the bottom of the issue of what is the difference between right and wrong effort, kusala and akusala, etc. Your argument in simple terms seems to revolve around practices that are supposedly kusala no matter what, whereas my thinking is that one and the same practice can be both kusala and akusala, so just performing a certain practice is not enough to make it kusala. In fact, most of the practices and things I do mostly run on the back of akusala cittas, so it's difficult for me to understand your point of view I guess. > A: Does ultimate teaching in any way reject helpful conventional supports? pt: I don't see a conflict between conventional and ultimate. > A: VsM IV,2 > [THE EIGHTEEN FAULTS OF A MONASTERY] pt: Sorry, I'm not getting into that one about secluded places, as I'm not 100% clear on the issue myself. > A: Neither the suttas nor commentaries seem to suggest that they are to be taken merely as descriptions and not to be followed unless one is already in the habit of doing so. pt: Well, that's according to you, others here have other observations. I guess the bottom line is - is there a development of understanding or not, and what seem to be the conditions for it. For me meditation stopped being a contributor to development to be honest, if it ever really was in the first place. I still like to meditate when I find the time because it feels so great, but I can't really see that it's improving my understanding in any way. Usually the opposite - whenever there's some sort of realisation in everyday life so to speak, the meditation then tends get better as well. Anyway Best wishes pt #116205 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:33 pm Subject: Re: Problems again ptaus1 Hi Lukas, Re 114637 > L: The problem is i drink some bears and smoke some cigarete Don't know about bears, but when it comes to quitting smoking, what worked for me was to consider the issue in terms of Dhamma. That urge which arises and pushes you to reach for the cigarette in the first place - that's craving. And craving is anatta - not you. Once that fact sinks deeply enough, the whole thing just stops - that urge looses power over you. The urge has power to push you around because craving comes with pleasant feeling, and we all love pleasant feeling. That's why it's so hard to see craving as anatta and detachment to come about, because we in fact want more of the pleasant feeling. So, once the urge is recognised as craving when it arises, and at the time it becomes obvious that it is not you (anatta), and that the promise of good feeling is in fact short lasting (impermanent), then the craving looses the strength to push you to do things in the first place, such as reaching for the cigarette. So when the urge arises next time, it's weaker, even easier to recognise and eventually the urge stops arising altogether. I imagine the same principle applies to alcohol, overeating, etc. Of course, craving for some things is stronger than for other things (e.g. people), so it can take a while for the understanding to go deeply enough. In cases when addiction becomes dangerous for your health or health of others, then supression is recommended by medication, hypnosis, meditation, or we just do it instinctively on our own, in order to contain the issue and avoid harming yourself or others. Supression though tends to be a temporary solution and often tends to have side-effects, e.g. the suppressed craving just goes into something else, so instead of cigarettes you start overeating, etc. So Dhamma then helps with complete eradication. Of course, I'm not a doctor, so just my experiences here. Best wishes pt #116206 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/14/2011 10:47:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, --------- >> KH: Ultimately everything is dependent on conditions; there is *no* control. >> > H: What exactly is this "control" there is none of? -------------- KH: I didn't say there was a control of which there was none; I said there was no control. ------------------------------------------ HCW: When someone says that there is no X, they are denying the reality of any X. To do so, they damned well better know what they are denying in denying X, else they are just sloganeering! ----------------------------------------- No control means there are only dhammas. "Only dhammas" means there is no control. ------------------------------------------ HCW: No. "No control" has a specific meaning. There being only dhammas implies that *any* other imagined thing is nonexistent. However, "no control" means that something *quite specific* is not a reality. An aside: Dhammas are also matters of convention, IMO, because what is utterly dependent for its existence on what is not it and which changes while standing, not keeping a fixed nature, is not a separate "reality" but only a conventional, contingent object of mental creation and is not to be invested with reverence. ---------------------------------------- ------------------------ > H: Yes, everything is dependent on conditions, which are simply dhammas. That's all there is: dhammas. Among those dhammas are acts of will. What exactly are you denying? When you say there is "no control," do you mean "no controller"? That is, of course, quite so. ------------------------ KH: See above. There are only [the presently arisen] dhammas. That changes everything. It means the world is not the way it is commonly perceived. ----------------------------------------- HCW: Certainly. And it changes even more so when one realizes that the dhammas as also not separate, self-existent realities, but are themselves matters of mere convention, though less gross than the macroscopic conventionalities folks generally cling to. --------------------------------------- The mistake made by meditators (if I may say so) is to think that anatta does not make the world radically different from the way it is commonly perceived. ---------------------------------------- HCW: You may say so, but it doesn't apply to the meditators whom I know. In particular, it doesn't apply to me. Oh, BTW, who are the "meditators" you speak of? Does your use of the label "meditator" tell one all they need to know? How very limiting that is!!! I suppose the Buddha and Saariputta and company didn't meditate? Do you claim that? If yes, I'd like to know your precise source of information. --------------------------------------- They think the Dhamma can still be a 'set of instructions to be followed' just as if there were such a thing as control. ----------------------------------------- HCW: The Buddha provided loads of instructions to be followed, even with regard to such mundane matters as to how to proceed when out begging. Try reading the suttas, Ken. ---------------------------------------- Ken H ============================= With metta, Howard "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" " _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] #116207 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/15/2011 3:14:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard CW, Thanks for your reply: I didn't see it the first time around. --------------- >> KH: <. . .> Many people of different faiths and philosophies like to go to a special place, adopt a special posture, and do something they consider to be meditation. That's fine if it it's what they want to do, but let's not pretend it is what the Buddha taught. >> > HCW: The Buddha was rather clear in his sutta teachings on meditation, but, of course, direct person-to-person instruction wasn't widely reported, and specific instruction is important, necessarily differing from person to person. ---------------- KH: Charles, is it? :-) --------------------------------------- HCW: Yep. :-) -------------------------------------- I'm not sure what you mean by "clear in his sutta teachings on meditation." What is clear to me (from the suttas and elsewhere) is that the Buddha taught right understanding of the way things are, not meditation. --------------------------- >> KH: Were you saying, "The Buddha mentioned postures and secluded places. Therefore, that must be what satipatthana is. It must be a matter of sitting in a special way in a special place."? >> > HCW: People aren't stupid, Ken. What was taught was that for meditation, particularly for entering jhanas, physical seclusion from gross distraction was advised. -------------------------- KH: Well, you know we disagree ion that. It is only the presently arisen namas that can be secluded or not secluded, distracted or not distracted. There is no control over them and they should be understood for what they are, not for what we might like them to be. ------------------------------------------- HCW: As I suggested before, you should actually read the suttas! ------------------------------------------ Ken H ================================= With metta, Howard Hindrances /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains " going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it " and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) _________________________ Right Meditation /I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then " quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities " I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.'/ (From MN 36) #116208 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala siila nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 14-jul-2011, om 12:49 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > What's the meaning of akusal siila? Is it all kind of akusala or > maybe non-refraining moments only? > Or restraining with akusala? ------- N: It is akusala behaviour through body and speech. Like killing, stealing, lying. Not all kinds of akusala, akusala citta with attachment to what is seen that arises countless times a day may not be of the intensity of akusala siila. Refraining from akusala is kusala citta. This is not done with akusala citta. BUt after kusala cittas have fallen away you may think with conceit: see how good I am. Nina. #116209 From: A T Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Online Now Send IM Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, all, >N: Let us look at the context. This refers to anapanasati, and indeed >this subject is very subtle, apt for Buddhas and sons of Buddhas. Not >for everybody. If anapanasati is so difficult, then why did the Buddha teach it so often and to so many different people? Why did VsM teaches it if it is exclusive only to "sons of Buddha" (if they were physical sons, they could hear it directly from Him as a private instruction, and we would never know). Also please note the plural "sons". Buddha had only one physical son, Rahula. So "son's (plural) of Buddha" means FOLLOWERS of Buddha, ie: good Buddhists. Anapanasati is included in satipatthana sutta and the sutta ends with "If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or " if there be any remnant of clinging/sustenance " non-return." - MN10 Please note "anyone". I believe it includes good Buddhists rather than just be limited to cream of the crop. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html With best wishes, Alex #116210 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening nilovg Dear Alex, Op 15-jul-2011, om 15:49 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > > >N: Let us look at the context. This refers to anapanasati, and indeed > >this subject is very subtle, apt for Buddhas and sons of Buddhas. Not > >for everybody. > > If anapanasati is so difficult, then why did the Buddha teach it so > often and to so many different people? Why did VsM teaches it if it > is exclusive only to "sons of Buddha" (if they were physical sons, > they could hear it directly from Him as a private instruction, and > we would never know). > ------ N: It is in the Vis.: sons of the Buddha. It is not litterally meant. It must be to highly skilful people. And does the Vis. not say: one in a hundred, a thousand, etc. can reach jhaana? Why did the Buddha teach it so often? There must have been many skilful people at that time. ------ > > A: Anapanasati is included in satipatthana sutta and the sutta ends > with > "If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way > for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either > gnosis right here & now, or - if there be any remnant of clinging/ > sustenance - non-return." - MN10 > ----- N: I have heard this argument before. Yes, if anyone would develop... *in this way*. The stages of insight are already difficult enough. Is it not better to pay attention what comes first? ------- > > A: Please note "anyone". I believe it includes good Buddhists > rather than just be limited to cream of the crop. > ------ N: But instead of thinking of others, who can and who cannot, would it not be better to realize for oneself what one understands directly already and what not? As you know, direct understanding is not mere thinking. Nina. > #116211 From: A T Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:26 am Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Online Now Send IM Send Email Send Email Hello Pt, all, Well I totally agree that understanding is a key. This has never been argued. What we do discuss is how it is gotten in the first place. I do believe that studying is very important. I am against the extreme approach of "never read books. Beginners mind. Go into the woods and meditate". But neither am I totally for the approach of "study but don't do anything". This can at best develop suttamayapaññā, which is good and required, but not enough for many. Some rare people (ugghaṭitaññu or vipañcitaññu) can according to commentaries, achieve awakening from mere listening and considering, but these rare cases may not be applicable to all. It is likely that all these rare cases got Nibbāna already, thus what remains are neyya and padaparama. Some people are neyya and require far more than mere listening and considering to develop understanding and maggaphala. I believe that wisdom has to care out in action (mental or physical). To believe one thing but to act contrary to it, is not really that good of a practical wisdom. Theoretic understanding is definitely a start, no doubts about it, but there is far more that needs to be done. It conditions cintamayapaññā and bhāvanāmayapaññā , but conditioning may be like knowledge of swimming be a condition to swim. Required, but not sufficient. When one knows how to swim there may be choice to swim, or not. Here is the crucial point. Knowledge of swimming is a condition for swimming, but it is not a guarantee that swimming will occur. Same with suttamayapaññā. It is required, but is it itself a guarantee for two other paññā to develop? When it comes to "oh, its just a samatha meditation". I do not believe that in Buddha's dispensation it is a mere "pleasure trip". Its blameless pleasure can be a good thing. The problem is that the mind wants pleasure. If it doesn't get it here, it will try to get it somewhere else (in perhaps far worser ways). Sometimes one needs certain level of bliss in order to contemplate Dukkha and not be too depressed and sour about it. "There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight,"-Dhp372 "Natthi jhānaṃ apaññassa". So whenever there is jhāna, pañña is present. Even getting into "Access" concentration I believe requires lots of insight. One must be able to recognize hindrances and antidotes for them (usually wisdom). Since it is ultimately ignorance (avijjā) that conditions hindrances, the thing that is counteracted is ignorance. Nothing bad here! It is very helpful for insight! IMHO, unless other extreme factors, being able to enter Access is good measure of wisdom. And within (or out of it) one can contemplate even better. As you know, hindrances are obstacles to awakening (AN 5.51). One doesn't need to deliberately bring up hindrances for study, we have plenty of them already. One studies them with a ready and workable mind. And of course all of this is for wisdom that will do all the work automatically. Of course all things are conditioned, and wholesome motivation is one of them. http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/individu.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.budd.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html IMHO, With best wishes, Alex #116213 From: A T Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Online Now Send IM Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, all, >N: It is in the Vis.: sons of the Buddha. It is not litterally meant. >It must be to highly skilful people. And does the Vis. not say: one >in a hundred, a thousand, etc. can reach jhaana? >================================================================ It seems to me that relatively only few people even try these things, so that is why it is so rare to achieve these things. Why not take ānāpānasati as far as one can? Maybe not till jhāna but access or satipaṭṭhāna? Also, it seems to me that the only way to become skillful is to actually do it. With best wishes, Alex #116214 From: Lukas Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala siila szmicio Dear Nina, > What's the meaning of akusal siila? Is it all kind of akusala or > maybe non-refraining moments only? > Or restraining with akusala? ------- >N: It is akusala behaviour through body and speech. Like killing, stealing, lying. L: What is akusala behaviour throught body and speeach? I thought siila is refraining moment, not behaviour through body and speech, e.g virati >N:Not all kinds of akusala, akusala citta with attachment to what is seen that arises countless times a day may not be of the intensity of akusala siila. L: Oh, but there may be sakayaditthi 'there is a Self in what is seen'? >N:Refraining from akusala is kusala citta. This is not done with akusala citta. BUt after kusala cittas have fallen away you may think with conceit: see how good I am. L: Is it wrong? Is it good to see that as conditioned phenomena and learned it? Just mana, nothing more, no me, not mine?? What's the condition to less dukkha? I cling to reading and studing, I cling to have more right understanding. Best wishes Lukas #116215 From: Howard Nylander Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asked to share, .... uziyah Namaste' Sister Sarah, Thank you for taking your valuable time to share you thoughts and insights with me. Please know how greatly appreciative I am. Regarding my health, David Henry Thoreau (the name he was actually born with and with whom I, for some unexplained reason, have a great affinity) said, "It is good for man to witness his limits transgressed", and I am ever mindful of the fact that without death, there can be no life. All is good in the eternal moment of now. While you enjoy your morning swims, my wife and I love our early morning hot-tub meditations where we face east and welcome the new day and the challenges we know it will bring, knowing there are 'powers', Chi, universal energies, that will help us through the day. In the evening, we face west, acknowledging and thanking these 'powers' as the sun sets and Old Mother Westwind hides behind the purple hills. It works well for us, as we make every evening our Sabbath even as we ritualistically close the gates leading to our home. While my wife would be quick to agree with you, regarding the folly of speculating on past lives, I do feel, in doing so, has given me greater insights into why I have had such unusual propensities since a young child, ... yet ever mindful that the only true reality can only be found in the eternal moment of 'now'. Thanks for sharing. I do understand. I am a bit confused, in trying to locate 'bookmarks' on DSG, but have enjoyed perusing the 'links' where I have found a treasure trove of Buddhist wisdom. I did find "The Buddha's Path," by Nina Van Gorkom on Amazon, and "Buddhism in Daily Life" on the Internet, which I have saved to my favorites and will download and study as time allows. I am so impressed by the copious amount of Buddhist wisdom shared by Nina. Thank you Nina. I loved the wisdom in the rest of your post as well. It all resonated so well within me. Thank you for sharing, dear sister. I did enjoy going through all the pictures, on DSG, and must assume much of your travels are related to DSG. I didn't realize I was on such a vast forum, and am inclined to 'speak little' in the company of so many great minds. My only travels abroad have been to Sweden and Finland, and all states except Alaska here in the US. While we would love to take our motor home to Alaska, I don't see that possibility at this time. I don't feel there is that much left of me to do so. Yet, all is good in the eternal moment of now. I do love 'what is' in the moment of now. In the Spirit of Metta, .... howard #116216 From: A T Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:16 am Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Hello Phil, KenH, Pt, all, >P:Physical seclusion and seclusion of citta, the Buddha praised them both >and people's insistence on denying this seems very peculiar. >=============================================================== You are Right. If the suttas didn't have all the practice suttas, and VsM had only the last 3rd part, then I'd accept certain approach. If "don't take these as prescription, only as description", then wouldn't such points be repeated over and over again in the suttas and commentaries? Buddha went to great length, sometimes explaining the most basic terms in lots of detail so not to have any misinterpretations, and yet we don't have such a crucial point being explicitly said anywhere. I am all for studying. All, If I have any mistakes, I welcome corrections backed by definitive statements from suttas/commentaries (no hapax legomenon, irrelevant passages, or highly creative usage of vague phrases, please). VsM was very detailed about very many aspects (sometimes perhaps too detailed), and yet we fail to find "don't ever practice any of these" things in them. Could all the venerable monks be wrong in their interpretation of VsM when it comes to practice? By irrelevant passages I mean those aimed at ugghaṭitaññu or vipañcitaññu types of individuals. What is enough for them is not enough for neyya. Also some rare exceptional stories should not be taken as general instruction to all. IMHO only the most gifted "get awakened while cooking", and all of these probably realized Nibbāna a long time ago. It was inevitable for them, them (ugghaṭitaññu or vipañcitaññu). Buddha has never defined anatta as "don't you ever practice, live life normally". In most cases anatta was defined as something that is anicca and dukkha. Contemplation of death, impermanence, etc, can be great help here. Anatta was not taught as a helpless leaf being blown in the air, so nothing proactive should not be done. I do believe in conditionality, and statements such as "nothing can be done at removing akusala and developing more of kusala because..." are a sort of conditioning that condition a certain outcome. I also dislike improper inclinations such as "things are anatta, this akusala can't be stopped." It itself seems to be a strong negative condition. When it comes to wrong views, they are not only based on wrong knowledge (which would be corrected by right knowledge). Wrong views are aspect of clinging, and clinging is based on craving. So in order to cut at wrong views from a cause, we also need to deal with craving. Many "samatha" meditations do that. So by pacifying craving, the cause for wrong views is attacked. When the sutta and comy says the same thing, trying to make the sutta mean what it does not mean is very unconvincing. No wonder some find suttas so difficult. It is hard to make them say what they don't say. Especially if we take them as a whole, then intentional development will be blatantly obvious. Phil, you are right about your suggestions. I should start a new practice, don't reply to certain kinds of topics. Though it seems that when I can't do sitting observation, reading/writing/thinking about Dhamma is better than bad alternatives. At least it inclines the mind toward better things. With best wishes, Alex #116217 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:51 am Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening kenhowardau Hi Howard CW, --------- <. . .> >> KH: <. . .> no control HCW: When someone says that there is no X, they are denying the reality of any X. To do so, they damned well better know what they are denying in denying X, else they are just sloganeering! ---------- KH: Are you asking me to define the word "control"? Any dictionary will tell you it means to exercise power or authority over something. "There is no power or authority that can be exercised over dhammas." How's that? :-) --------------------------------- >> KH: No control means there are only dhammas. "Only dhammas" means there is no control. >> > HCW: No. "No control" has a specific meaning. There being only dhammas implies that *any* other imagined thing is nonexistent. However, "no control" means that something *quite specific* is not a reality. ------------------------ KH: It is because there are only dhammas that there can be no control over dhammas. If there were something else - something other than dhammas - then there would be the potential for that "something else" to exercise control over dhammas. But there isn't, and so there is no control. ------------------------------ > HCW: An aside: Dhammas are also matters of convention, IMO, because what is utterly dependent for its existence on what is not it and which changes while standing, not keeping a fixed nature, is not a separate "reality" but only a conventional, contingent object of mental creation and is not to be invested with reverence. ------------------------------ KH: I live in hope that one day you will become interested in the Dhamma *as it is found in the ancient Pali texts*. Until that day we can only talk apples and oranges. ---------------------------------------- >> KH: There are only [the presently arisen] dhammas. That changes everything. It means the world is not the way it is commonly perceived. >> > HCW: Certainly. And it changes even more so when one realizes that the dhammas as also not separate, self-existent realities, but are themselves matters of mere convention, though less gross than the macroscopic conventionalities folks generally cling to. ---------------------------------------- KH: That's just oranges to me. :-) ------------------------------------------------------- >> KH: The mistake made by meditators (if I may say so) is to think that anatta does not make the world radically different from the way it is commonly perceived. >> > HCW: You may say so, but it doesn't apply to the meditators whom I know. In particular, it doesn't apply to me. ------------------------------------------------------ KH: Do you think there is control in ultimate reality? When (for example) you decide whether to stretch out your arm or to not stretch out your arm, is there ultimately any such control? Or are there really only [the presently arisen] dhammas, over which there is no control? --------------------------------------- > HCW: Oh, BTW, who are the "meditators" you speak of? Does your use of the label "meditator" tell one all they need to know? How very limiting that is!!! I suppose the Buddha and Saariputta and company didn't meditate? Do you claim that? If yes, I'd like to know your precise source of information. --------------------------------------- KH: I use the word "meditator" to apply to anyone who believes there is control over ultimate reality. -------------- >>KH: They think the Dhamma can still be a 'set of instructions to be followed'just as if there were such a thing as control. >> > HCW: The Buddha provided loads of instructions to be followed, even with regard to such mundane matters as to how to proceed when out begging. Try reading the suttas, Ken. -------------- KH: I love the suttas, and I am always saddened when I see them given a common, ordinary, meaning. Such a waste! :-) Ken H #116218 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:26 am Subject: The 7 Fruits! bhikkhu5 Friends The 7 Fruits of the 7 Links to Awakening! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, when the 7 Links to Awakening have been developed, completed and refined, the winning of the seven fruits is indeed to be expected. What are the benefits of these 7 fruits? They are, either: 1: One attains final knowledge early in this very life. Or: 2: One attains final knowledge at the moment of death. Or: Having destroyed the five lower chains and spontaneously re-arisen; 3: One attains Nibbna in the first half of the life as a divine brahma. Or: 4: One attains Nibbna in the second half of the life in these pure abodes. Or: 5: One attains Nibbna as a Noble non-returner without effort. Or: 6: One attains Nibbna as a Noble non-returner with some effort. Or: 7: One is bound upstream, surely heading towards the highest Akanittha realm. When, bhikkhus, these Seven Links to Awakening have been thoroughly developed and cultivated exactly in this way, these seven fruits & benefits may be expected.... <...> On the 31 Planes of Existence: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. Book [V:69-70] section 46: The Links. Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #116219 From: SARAH CONNELL Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems again dhammasanna Hi Chuck and all, Sorry guys-32 out of 32 - 100%. Its not that I'm smarter but my journey has been one that landed me in most of the areas of the questions. May you be well and happy and always smiling, Sarah ________________________________ From: ptaus1 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 15, 2011 6:33:26 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems again Hi Lukas, Re 114637 > L: The problem is i drink some bears and smoke some cigarete Don't know about bears, but when it comes to quitting smoking, what worked for me was to consider the issue in terms of Dhamma. That urge which arises and pushes you to reach for the cigarette in the first place - that's craving. And craving is anatta - not you. Once that fact sinks deeply enough, the whole thing just stops - that urge looses power over you. <...> #116220 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:32 pm Subject: Re: Six worlds. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > I thought again about your post on meditation and paramattha dhammas. > You wrote: > R: It is an errant assumption that this must be the case, based on a > conclusion that Buddha never drew - that since this body and this > world is not real and is just a conceptual array, we should not have > anything to do with it, because it can never have anything to do with > the path. That is not what Buddha said or taught and I continue to > think it is just wrong. > -------- > N: You think that when speaking about ultimates we live in an > intellectual, artificial, cold, unnatural word and reject the > conventional world. I believe we have to clear up quite some > misunderstandings. > I feel that there is nothing that does not pertain to daily life in > what is taught in the Abhidhamma. > It is not like this: know just sound, no story, like driving a car. > Seeing arises and there is thinking about what is seen, this is all > very natural. Seeing and thinking are different moments of citta, and > to learn about different moments is not artificial or unnatural. We > perform good deeds and evil deeds, and the Dhamma goes to the source > of these deeds, namely the citta. You do not disagree that it is > essential to know different cittas that arise. And here we are in the > world of paramattha dhammas. We cannot escape this world. What you say is true, and I don't feel that my friends at dsg take an unnatural approach to their lives. It's very obvious that you enjoy your humanity and relationships and accept ordinary activities. The question is whether you look at life as it is ordinarily lives as pertaining to the dhamma, and vice versa. It is one thing to accept life, and it is another to see it as the field of the Dhamma. I think that the dsg view is very natural towards life, but sees the Dhamma as "wholely other." For instance, in this view of the Dhamma it really doesn't make a big difference if one develops conventional charity or metta, althought they are kusala. But the Dhamma is only developed or realized in clear moments of individual citta that are seen accurately, not in good works, ordinary kindness, abstaining from improper activities, etc. In other words, I think you see the Dhamma itself as one of knowing only, of realization/insight only. I feel that the Dhamma functions both conventionally and in paramatha terms, not just the latter. When one is kind, that kusala opens the heart; that leads to positive wholesome attributes. Even if one is not aware of those cittas, that is still part of the path. It is in that sense that I think the dsg view is somewhat confined to intellectual knowing, even in the case of direct knowing that may ultimately arise. It is seen as knowing and insight of the mind, not of the heart. That is not to say that I experience a cold or remote quality from anyone here - I don't. But I think somehow the joy and relationship side of things that is more conventional, although it is enjoyed and expressed and is fine, is seen as separate from Dhamma. I quote > from my "Lessons in Detachment" an India talk: > > change the world so long as one does not understand the real cause of > akusala. So long as there is the latent tendency of ignorance it > conditions the arising of akusala cittas. Citta is the source of good > and bad deeds. We should be grateful to the Buddha for teaching us > the real cause of akusala, for teaching us about the latent > tendencies and showing how dangerous these tendencies are. > > Also, a King asked the Buddha what the real cause is of all the > trouble in the world. The answer is: attachment, aversion and ignorance. > These are paramattha dhammas, unwholesome roots. But is this sutta > not about daily life: how to have more peace in the world. > By studying the Abhidhamma we do not become estranged from the world. But there is hardly any discussion like this. I think that's very good, but if anyone brought up "peace in the world," I"m sure they would be reminded that peace is only a mometary dhamma, to be seen as an object of citta, and that the "world" is an illusory concept. That is the problem! We can't talk about Dhamma applied to ordinary things because the Dhamma is restricted to cold, remote, presently unknowable, single qualities like "hardness" or "metta." But it's not metta like a prolonged experience of love and appreciation. It is just momentary insight into a momentary phenomenon. I think that does sort of make the Dhamma quite cold, doesn't it? Even though detachment is the goal, does detachment mean that the immeasurables, and the refined happiness of jhana and such other experiences that are released and joyful along the way, are somehow not seen as Dhamma, but only the mechanical insight that arises for this moment or that moment is seen as true Dhamma and significant for the real path. I do think the people here are very interesting and expressive individuals - often in their side-comments, but somehow all of that is seen as separate from the path, and I don't think it should be. > ------ > R: > And that we, not having such accumulations, should ignore all those > teachings and take an intellectual path, removed from practice as > described by the Buddha, instead. > > ------ > > N: I do not know whether you consider it an intellectual Path to > learn more about the cittas that arise. tHis is daily life and I > would call it practice. Well it is a question of practice and applying it to Buddhist activities, and also applying it to conventional aspects of life. There is meditation, going to talks and gathering with a Sangha, how you approach emotion and dealing with close relationships in everyday life, how you deal with sickness and death, getting old, all of that. We talk about these things and do some of those activities, but again it is always seen as 'not the path,' just side-events or side-activities. We have to be reminded that if we are doing yoga or surfing or meeting a wise teacher, that none of this is the path itself. It is all conventional unless it is seen for its individual moments, which all have the same status. So if one were to have a moment of insight listening to a teacher, or feel a moment of freedom while surfing, or whatever, it has to fit into a specific category and be understood as a path phenomenon or it isn't really a part of the path. There's an unnatural separation, I do think, between the kusala and akusala moments of real life that are experienced, and what is seen as the actual "path itself," a special category that is cut off from regular experiences. > ------ > > R: There is no evidence that the six "worlds" are only experienced > separately, that sound and vision, direction and texture and color, > cannot be experienced at the same time in the same mind-moment. That > is also a philosophical doctrine, not a proven truth. Buddha himself > again never said such a thing as far as I know. He described > experience in more organic terms. > > ------- > > N: In my former post to you I touched on this already. There are many > suttas on the guarding of the six doorways, indriya sa"mvara siila. > When seeing visible object, he does not attend to the general > appearance nor to the details. When we 'see' people and believe that > they exist we attend to the general appearance and to the details. > That is different from just seeing that experiences only colour. Just > recently the sutta on Bahiya was quoted: in the seeing only the > seeing. Perhaps this makes it clearer to you that the Buddha spoke > about the six doorways? And the six doorways are nothing else but > daily life. > > In my daily life I have not experienced that developing understanding > of what appears now is forced, unnatural. Well I would say there are two aspects of this. I am not sure, by the way, that "just seeing" in the "seen" means that the six worlds ar all completely separate and don't really interact, or never arise together. I know this is just "basic" info that you all accept as completely true, but it does dissect experience into a totally unrecognizable object. Nobody actually experiences color separate from movement as a car goes by, or hardness separate from color when they touch and see a table at the same time. These are indeed unnatural categorizations of experience. Is it the way experience actually takes place? It is taken on faith that this is a logical and sensible philosophy and that it is known as true because it was given by arahants, but personally I don't see this kind of very specific talk in the suttas of the Buddha, including Bahiya. I see Bahiya as being about experience without proliferations, not about experience being one sense-door at a time and no mixture. If you accept that this is true experience - single-citta and single-world only - then there is no such thing indeed as music, person, painting or relationship, no cars, no mountains, etc. And it fits with the goal of detachment, because it means that all the things we enjoy are artificially constructed and should just be dismissed as meaningless. Maybe that is true. But there is another way to look at Buddhism, which is to be able to look at a mountain with detachment, but also with joy and to see that the mountain is there and the perception is there, but there is no self there, and that makes it even more joyful. It is "anatta of the heart." And it is possible to experience your wife or husband and have a moment where you feel that there is a lot of joyful appreciation of them without detachment and with the self out of the way, and that is a kind of opening of the heart and mind too. It is not by deconstructing reality into little perceptual bits, but by seeing in conventional reality something more than the self. That is what I see as the path in everyday life, not just waiting for a moment of insight into "seeing object" or "hardness" to arise and just to see it perfectly. To me that's only a small part of the path. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #116221 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:26 pm Subject: Re: wisdom and doing sarahprocter... Dear Rob E, #115891 Thank you again for your detailed comments - they seem to come down to an understanding of realities vs situations/activities --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "epsteinrob" wrote: > One can always come back to the "bottom line," which is to understand the reality of the present moment. However, that doesn't settle the question of whether activities are akusala in their own right and should be avoided. Certainly someone who said this was not true and thus went about drinking as much as they felt like would not be following the Buddha's instructions. > > Buddha says not to play dice. He doesn't say that "dice" is a state of mind or an intention, or that "dice" is okay if you are experiencing a kusala mental state. He says "dice is bad," "associating with unwholesome people is bad," etc. These activities - physical choices in the physical world which you would likely call 'conventional' and 'conceptual' rather than ultimately real, are actually to be done or avoided with the physical body. It's not just a matter of the associated mental state. .... S: The Buddha himself often associated with unwholesome people and when he did so, he had nothing but compassion and kindness for their plight, helping them to develop more understanding. We never know the circumstances we may find ourselves in. A child may be brought up in a household where everyone drinks heavily and play dice. The Buddha's teachings help us to understand the cause of all harm as being ignorance and attachment and to develop more understanding of the present realities. As understanding develops and the danger of akusala and harmful mental states is known more and more, there will be fewer and fewer conditions to drink, gamble or break any of the precepts and we will be more and more inclined to appreciate and 'associate' with good qualities. A long time ago I worked with very violent teenagers in a rough area of London. I don't think the Buddha was telling us not to spend time with deprived youngsters or other sick people in a caring way. I think he was helping us to understand the present realities, including our mental states at such times as now. Wherever we are, there is seeing, there is visible object and these can be known. ... > > I'm sure Buddha would also say that if you happen to find yourself playing dice then it is a good time to understand the reality arising at the moment - hardness of the dice, visual object of the dice, etc., but still, better not to play dice in the first place. .... S: Again, anatta - conditioned dhammas arising by conditions. One may play dice with children to keep them entertained with kusala cittas too! .... >In the middle are people like me who have a pragmatic approach to the path - follow the instructions, do what you can, have a sensible relation to what the Buddha described as common practices that lead to understanding, and continue to develop understanding of the Dhamma. It is not just sitting meditation that I consider among those practices, but other practices that he encouraged as well. A partial list of both "formal" meditation techniques and ones that are "in life" would include: sitting anapansati, sitting satipatthana practice, practice of mindfulness while doing daily activities, awareness of body positions and actions, mindfulness of the pre-sleep state, contemplation of the body and its contents, corpse contemplation, cemetary meditation, meditation to develop disgust/disenchantment for the body through contemplation on the putrid, disgusting elements of the physical form, development of jhana and development of insight into the jhanic states, meditation on kasinas, contemplation/cultivation/radiating of metta and all the four immeasurables, deliberate cultivation of enlightenment factors by intending them in sitting meditation [specifically promoted in one of the suttas.] > > It is my opinion that in addition to study of Dhamma, discussion and company of wise friends, Buddha intended for his followers to practice mindfulness 24/7, even when asleep when advanced enough to do it, and this included periods of formal meditation for the monks, practice of mindfulness while doing work and activities, bodily functions such as eating, urinating, defecating, sleeping, etc., maintaining mindfulness while going on alms rounds, visits, talks, travels, etc. -- in other words at all times without a break. There are descriptions of all of the above, all the various meditation subjects and applications that lead to cultivation of insight, samatha, metta, understanding - a full-time job that includes intentional practice throughout life. .... S: Sounds like a very "full-time job"! Seriously, it does all sound like a job, a long list of activities to be "done", "do what you can", inc. "formal meditation". In other words, however much you might deny it, it all sounds like a list of "things" for Self to do or follow - an idea that satipatthana is somehow bound up with "intentional practices" and "special activities" rather than an understanding, an accepting, a detachment from what is conditioned to arise and appear now. .... > > Rather than magnifying self-concept and sense of control, this is a total giving up of control to the full-time agenda of the Buddha, becoming a vehicle for the development of the paht and for the understanding of the teachings. Rather than being self-willed, it is self-abnegating and self-destructive -- in a good way! .... S: Who gives up this control or becomes a vehicle for any development? Weren't we discussing the sutta in which the Buddha from the outset stressed that we don't get the chance to say "Let the body become thus..." and so on? Instead he taught us an understanding of the 5 khandhas as being the all which can be known now. ... > >S: I would say that if Right View is being cultivated, if the Path is being followed, then that is bhavana, meditation. > >R: I would actually not agree with this. I think that Right View may lead to clarity in meditation, but that bhavana cannot come just from mental clarity about the teachings - they have to be put into practice. > > There is an underlying presupposition in the Right View/experience-only view of the path, as I have suggested before, that there is no reality to physical existence, and that conditioned, physically-based reality is not part of the path. .... S: There are mental and physical realities arising and falling away now as we speak. both namas and rupas have to be known as they appear now. They are all real. However, the knowing, the understanding and the other path factors are all mental, all namas, not rupas. It is through the development of these mental factors that insight and eventually enlightenment is attained. Metta Sarah p.s pls re-post any comments I've snipped which you don't think have been properly addressed too. ===== #116222 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:45 pm Subject: Re: wisdom and doing sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, #115874 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: >But how on earth can "dormancy" be passed on if there is no storage, not structure, nothing to hold it in its "sleeping" state? .... S: It is a 'tendency', an aspect of the citta that is there until and unless that tendency has been eradicated. ... >When there are no present active "dominos" continuing the process, because something that is dormant is necessarily "still," not active, then how does it "sleep" and then "wake up again" when conditions are right? ... S: I don't know how far we can take the domino analogy, but can we not say the domino has a 'tendency to fall'. However, if there are no conditions, such as a gust of wind or a push, it doesn't fall. Also, we need to be careful not to confuse tendencies and conditions. The conditions are 'forces' (satta) which bring about other conditioned dhammas. The tendencies that lie dormant are kusala and akusala states which condition kusala and akusala dhammas to arise when the appropriate conditions are in place. > > S:....The purpose of understanding more about conditioned dhammas now is just to understand more about anatta now. > >R: That is good, but if there is a static dormant structure within anicca, that is a problem. If not, then I'd like to know how it works. As you know, it's not so easy to say "well it's all anatta" when you don't understand a sticking point in the way things work. .... S: I wouldn't say "there is a static dormant structure within anicca". It is dhammas which are anicca and no dhamma is static in anyway. The dormant tendencies are also changing all the time. At this moment of attachment or wisdom, the tendency of one or other 'accumulates' and the habit is affected in future. ... > > >S: U Narada who translated the Patthana as mentioned above, wrote in his "Guide to Conditional Relations": > > > > "In essence, Patthana deals with the conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed(sankhata) states that arise and cease at every instant without a > > break and which make up what are said to be animate and inanimate things. > > These states arise dependent on root and the other conditions and are not > > at the will and mercy of any being. They do so, not from one cause alone, > > but from many causes such as the conditioning forces given in the > > Analytical Exposition of the Conditions. So Patthana is the teaching of > > anatta." > >R: I actually understood that statement, and that is a little scary that I did. I don't usually understand why understanding conditions leads to understanding of anatta that clearly, or perhaps I forget, but that is very nice and clear: If you understand conditions, you understand that there is no self involved, just the chain of conditions. Well, I've known that before, and it's kind of obvious, but for some reason it's also easy to forget. ... S: Thx for stressing this point again for everyone. As you very rightly say, it becomes clearer how the understanding of conditions and the understanding of anatta develop together. It's all about this moment and the conditioned nature of the dhammas now. ... >R: I will be grateful for any explanation of whether dormant conditions and tendencies are truly static and in an inactive "waiting" state until conditions activate them, or whether they are just incomplete parts of a dynamic series of conditions that has just not come to complete recognizable fruition yet. If the latter, my mind may be eased - at least in this area. Still plenty of other things to bother it. :-) ... S: :-) Yes, always conditions for some kind of unease or other while there's that 'dormant' tendency:-)) I'd forget the static part. As I can smell the soup on the cooker, maybe we can think of the large pot full of different ingredients being heated up all the time......a constantly changing mix ready to produce a different brew depending on when there are conditions to taste it! When we do taste the soup on the table, we can't see the pot on the cooker, but without all that preparation and heating up over time, there'd be no brew at all. Time to taste! Metta Sarah ======== #116223 From: Rajesh Patil Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:54 pm Subject: Belated best wishes for 2600th 'Guru Purnima' rajpat_00 Dear All, Best wishes for 2600th 'Guru Purnima', the first Dhamma sermon to 5 monks at Sarnath. Observe 8 precepts during rainy retreat and experience the purity of Dhamma. Make India Buddhist Rajesh #116224 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening nilovg Dear Alex, Op 15-jul-2011, om 16:34 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > > >N: It is in the Vis.: sons of the Buddha. It is not litterally meant. > >It must be to highly skilful people. And does the Vis. not say: one > >in a hundred, a thousand, etc. can reach jhaana? > >================================================================ > > It seems to me that relatively only few people even try these > things, so that is why it is so rare to achieve these things. > > Why not take ānāpānasati as far as one can? Maybe not till jhāna > but access or satipaṭṭhāna? > ------ N: There is no rule as to the objects of satipa.t.thaana. Breath is very subtle, and it all depends whether it (truly breath, not something one takes for breath) appears to sati as object. ------- > > A: Also, it seems to me that the only way to become skillful is to > actually do it. > -------- N: It depends how, it could be in the wrong way. ------- I thought of your remark that so often we read in the suttas about anapana sati. Before the Buddha's enlightenment, many people used this as an object of calm. Now the Buddha taught how this meditation subject could be fruitful: as an object of satipa.t.thaana, seeing the body in the body. He addressed those who were skilled already in anapana sati as a meditation subject of samatha as so many were in his days. We read about going to the forest, why? Because it is someone's inclination, especially in the case of a monk. Nothing forced here. But no rule for everyone. Pa~n~naa developed in satipa.t.thaana can understand also this inclination as a kind of conditioned naama. The aim is not jhaana, but understanding realities as they are. As Jon mentioned, at the end of each section it is stated that the origination dhammas and ceasing dhammas are to be understood. As I just heard on a Thai recording: Sati can be aware of the citta that is calm, of piiti, of sukha, or the ruupa breath that is coarse or subtle. The aim is coming to know what is not yet known (the indriya that accompanies the magga-citta of the sotaapanna). ------ Nina. > #116225 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala siila nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 15-jul-2011, om 18:01 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > L: What is akusala behaviour throught body and speeach? I thought > siila is refraining moment, not behaviour through body and speech, > e.g virati > -------- We have to differentiate kusala siila and akusala siila. When refraining from akusala speech or deeds, there is virati cetasika, kusala siila. BUt there are many kinds and degrees of siila, read the Vis. and the Patisambidhamagga. Helping and respect are also ways of siila. There is higher siila, satipa.t.thaana. This is siila through the mind. ------- > > >N:Not all kinds of akusala, akusala citta with > attachment to what is seen that arises countless times a day may not > be of the intensity of akusala siila. > > L: Oh, but there may be sakayaditthi 'there is a Self in what is > seen'? > ------- N: This is not among the three kinds of akusala kamma patha through the mind-door. Such as: there is no kamma, no result of kamma. This could lead to many kinds of wrong deeds. -------- > > > >N:Refraining from akusala is kusala citta. This is not done with > akusala citta. BUt after kusala cittas have fallen away you may think > with conceit: see how good I am. > > L: Is it wrong? Is it good to see that as conditioned phenomena and > learned it? > Just mana, nothing more, no me, not mine?? > ------ Mana is akusala, but it can be an object of right understanding, seeing it as not 'me' and at that moment there is kusala citta. ------- > > L: What's the condition to less dukkha? I cling to reading and > studing, I cling to have more right understanding. > --------- N: The ceasing of dukkha is when you have reached the end of the cycle at arahatship. That is far away. Right understanding is good, and clinging can arise after moments of understanding. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas alternate, such is life. You cannot have less dukkha by wishing for it. We have to accept that. Better know the deep meaning of dukkha: not just suffering, but understand that whatever falls away is dukkha. The realisation of the impermanence of naama and ruupa is at a later stage of insight. First: know the difference between the characteristic of naama and of ruupa. ------- Nina. #116226 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening nilovg Dear Alex, Yes, take good care of yourself. I am grateful to you that you always come back to cooking, and realizing the truth while cooking. You know, when in front of the cooker, I come to think of you! Nina. Op 15-jul-2011, om 21:16 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > Phil, you are right about your suggestions. I should start a new > practice, don't reply to certain kinds of topics. Though it seems > that when I can't do sitting observation, reading/writing/thinking > about Dhamma is better than bad alternatives. At least it inclines > the mind toward better things. #116227 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six worlds. nilovg second attempt of sending. Dear Rob E, I appreciate the care you have taken to send me this long mail. I take my time to answer. Lodewijk and I celebrate our wedding day (59 years) and I take your mail to the restaurant to discuss with Lodewijk. You know: worldly pleasure and Dhamma combined. At the same time I know that life is so short and that it is not sure we make it to the diamond wedding day. The suttas about the shortness of life, conventional teaching if people like to call it that way. I take all the help I can get, conventional and paramatthic. Depending on the moment, the mood, the inclination at that moment. Nina. Op 16-jul-2011, om 5:32 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > What you say is true, and I don't feel that my friends at dsg take > an unnatural approach to their lives. It's very obvious that you > enjoy your humanity and relationships and accept ordinary activities. #116228 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening nilovg second attempt in sending. Dear Alex, Op 15-jul-2011, om 16:34 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > > >N: It is in the Vis.: sons of the Buddha. It is not litterally meant. > >It must be to highly skilful people. And does the Vis. not say: one > >in a hundred, a thousand, etc. can reach jhaana? > >================================================================ > > It seems to me that relatively only few people even try these > things, so that is why it is so rare to achieve these things. > > Why not take ānāpānasati as far as one can? Maybe not till jhāna > but access or satipaṭṭhāna? > ------ N: There is no rule as to the objects of satipa.t.thaana. Breath is very subtle, and it all depends whether it (truly breath, not something one takes for breath) appears to sati as object. ------- > > A: Also, it seems to me that the only way to become skillful is to > actually do it. > -------- N: It depends how, it could be in the wrong way. ------- I thought of your remark that so often we read in the suttas about anapana sati. Before the Buddha's enlightenment, many people used this as an object of calm. Now the Buddha taught how this meditation subject could be fruitful: as an object of satipa.t.thaana, seeing the body in the body. He addressed those who were skilled already in anapana sati as a meditation subject of samatha as so many were in his days. We read about going to the forest, why? Because it is someone's inclination, especially in the case of a monk. Nothing forced here. But no rule for everyone. Pa~n~naa developed in satipa.t.thaana can understand also this inclination as a kind of conditioned naama. The aim is not jhaana, but understanding realities as they are. As Jon mentioned, at the end of each section it is stated that the origination dhammas and ceasing dhammas are to be understood. As I just heard on a Thai recording: Sati can be aware of the citta that is calm, of piiti, of sukha, or the ruupa breath that is coarse or subtle. The aim is coming to know what is not yet known (the indriya that accompanies the magga-citta of the sotaapanna). ------ Nina. > #116229 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Asked to share, .... nilovg second attempt in sending. Dear Howard N, Op 15-jul-2011, om 19:06 heeft Howard Nylander het volgende geschreven: > I > did find "The Buddha's Path," by Nina Van Gorkom on Amazon, and > "Buddhism in > Daily Life" on the Internet, which I have saved to my favorites and > will > download and study as time allows. I am so impressed by the copious > amount of > Buddhist wisdom shared by Nina. Thank you Nina. ------ N: I hope you will find it useful and questions always welcome. Take good care of your health, Nina. #116230 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six worlds. (part 1). nilovg Dear Rob E, It was a Chinese wok restaurant in a parc in Scheveningen. Looking out on the colourful flowers, and in between a sip of green tea and a bite of the food I read to Lodewijk your letter. Without Dhamma the celebration would be a bit empty. Pleasure and Dhamma. The hot soup helped Lodewijk to have less backache. He has trouble walking these days. Lodewijk found your letter very sympathetetic: We both understand what you were saying. The path of everyday life, the path of the heart, as separate from the six worlds of paramattha dhammas. Lodewijk thought that it would not be easy to answer your letter. I take some parts in order not to make it too long. Op 16-jul-2011, om 5:32 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I think that the dsg view is very natural towards life, but sees > the Dhamma as "wholely other." For instance, in this view of the > Dhamma it really doesn't make a big difference if one develops > conventional charity or metta, althought they are kusala. But the > Dhamma is only developed or realized in clear moments of individual > citta that are seen accurately, not in good works, ordinary > kindness, abstaining from improper activities, etc. In other words, > I think you see the Dhamma itself as one of knowing only, of > realization/insight only. I feel that the Dhamma functions both > conventionally and in paramatha terms, not just the latter. > ------- N: Lodewijk agrees and so do I. But I do not hear Kh Sujin saying: this is conventional, this is paramatthic. Insight and life are closely intertwined. I myself do not like very much the expression conventional this or that. But the reason that this is mentioned: at the moment of satipa.t.thaana, the object is not a situation or person, but a dhamma appearing through one of the six doors. Just for a moment, in between all the social activities (cooking, Alex), very naturally. I learnt this from her during the years I lived in Bgk, driving her and her father around to restaurants, going around to temples where we met people. Listening to her many good reminders within the situation of life. I wrote: "My Time with Acharn Sujin." (to be found in Zolag web) When crossing the street: elements on elements, hardness pressing on hardness. Just very natural. We went to see her sister in the train with her newborn baby: just a heap of dukkha, this baby. See how natural, and it is Dhamma. ------- > R: When one is kind, that kusala opens the heart; that leads to > positive wholesome attributes. Even if one is not aware of those > cittas, that is still part of the path. It is in that sense that I > think the dsg view is somewhat confined to intellectual knowing, > even in the case of direct knowing that may ultimately arise. It is > seen as knowing and insight of the mind, not of the heart. > ------ N: We understand and Lodewijk thinks this is well expressed. At first sight the teaching on paramatthas may seem rather intellectual, at first sight. ------- > R: That is not to say that I experience a cold or remote quality > from anyone here - I don't. But I think somehow the joy and > relationship side of things that is more conventional, although it > is enjoyed and expressed and is fine, is seen as separate from Dhamma. > ------- N: Never seperate from the Dhamma. > ---------- > N: > Also, a King asked the Buddha what the real cause is of all the > > trouble in the world. The answer is: attachment, aversion and > ignorance. > > These are paramattha dhammas, unwholesome roots. But is this sutta > > not about daily life: how to have more peace in the world. > > By studying the Abhidhamma we do not become estranged from the > world. > > R: I think that's very good, but if anyone brought up "peace in > the world," I"m sure they would be reminded that peace is only a > mometary dhamma, to be seen as an object of citta, and that the > "world" is an illusory concept. That is the problem! We can't talk > about Dhamma applied to ordinary things because the Dhamma is > restricted to cold, remote, presently unknowable, single qualities > like "hardness" or "metta." But it's not metta like a prolonged > experience of love and appreciation. It is just momentary insight > into a momentary phenomenon. I think that does sort of make the > Dhamma quite cold, doesn't it? > ------ N: No, not cold but it is very precise. We can be deluded by terms like world peace. What is it? Does it exist? Lodewijk also thinks it can be a hollow idea like the "millenium declaration". We may be disappointed about the way things are going in politics, but we can remember the real cause of failures: so long as there are lobha, dosa and moha there will be wars. The Buddha taught very precisely the way to overcome delusion, moha. A precise teaching is not cold. On the contrary. Metta cannot be a prolonged experience, that is a delusion. It will lead to great disappointment. But the beginning may seem quite prosaic, too analytical. First we have to become familiar with the characteristic of naama as different from the characteristic of ruupa before their impermanence can be realized, before there can be more detachment, less clinging to self. Before there will be less lobha, dosa, moha. --------- (to be continued) Nina. > #116231 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:31 am Subject: six worlds (part 2) nilovg Dear Rob E, > > Even though detachment is the goal, does detachment mean that the > immeasurables, and the refined happiness of jhana and such other > experiences that are released and joyful along the way, are somehow > not seen as Dhamma, but only the mechanical insight that arises for > this moment or that moment is seen as true Dhamma and significant > for the real path. > -------- N: The question now is: what is the Path. The Path is the development of right understanding of whatever appears now. Also joyful experiences are dhammas and can be known as such. Insight is not a mechanical thing. It comes about through listening, considering, intellectual understanding. It arises because of its own conditions, has nothing to do with "us". Some people think: Dhamma takes the spice out of life, you cannot enjoy life. Some people for this reason would not like to become a sotaapanna. Kh Sujin said: do not worry, there is still enough lobha when one is a sotaapanna. Clinging to pleasant things is not forbidden. Some people think that you, as a layfollower, have to live like a monk or an arahat, but this is unnatural. --------- > R: We have to be reminded that if we are doing yoga or surfing or > meeting a wise teacher, that none of this is the path itself. It is > all conventional unless it is seen for its individual moments, > which all have the same status. So if one were to have a moment of > insight listening to a teacher, or feel a moment of freedom while > surfing, or whatever, it has to fit into a specific category and be > understood as a path phenomenon or it isn't really a part of the > path. There's an unnatural separation, I do think, between the > kusala and akusala moments of real life that are experienced, and > what is seen as the actual "path itself," a special category that > is cut off from regular experiences. > ------ N: Lodewijk thinks, this is difficult to answer, but he says that you go to the heart of the matter. I see the Path as moments of understanding the present dhamma that presents itself, but this is not separated from daily life. It is not a matter of fitting things into a special category, but it all is a matter of understanding our daily life with its kusala moments, akusala moments, sufferings, joyful moments. Without the Dhamma all such moments just pass without they being known as conditioned dhammas. How empty, how meaningless life would be. -------- > > R: Well I would say there are two aspects of this. I am not sure, > by the way, that "just seeing" in the "seen" means that the six > worlds ar all completely separate and don't really interact, or > never arise together. I know this is just "basic" info that you all > accept as completely true, but it does dissect experience into a > totally unrecognizable object. Nobody actually experiences color > separate from movement as a car goes by, or hardness separate from > color when they touch and see a table at the same time. > These are indeed unnatural categorizations of experience. Is it the way experience actually takes place? It is taken on faith that this is a logical and sensible philosophy and that it is known as true because it was given by arahants, but personally I don't see this kind of very specific talk in the suttas of the Buddha, including Bahiya. I see Bahiya as being about experience without proliferations, not about experience being one sense-door at a time and no mixture. ------- N: Even when beginning to learn we can find out that touching is not seeing, that thinking is not seeing, that the experience of hardness is different from the experience of colour. We are learning this and we have to learn in order to follow the Path. See this sutta: The Buddha spoke about seeing, hearing and all the experiences through the different doorways. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (IV, Salyatanavagga, First Fifty, Ch 3, on the all, 25 abandoning) that the Buddha said: I will teach you a teaching, brethren, for the abandoning of the all by fully knowing, by comprehending it. Do you listen to it. And what, brethren is that teaching? The eye, brethren, must be abandoned by fully knowing, by comprehending it. Objects... eye-consciousness... eye-contact... that weal or woe or neutral state... that also must be abandoned by fully knowing, by comprehending it. The tongue... savours and the rest... that weal or woe... which arises owing to mind-contact,- that also must be abandoned by fully knowing it, by comprehending it. ------- > R: > If you accept that this is true experience - single-citta and > single-world only - then there is no such thing indeed as music, > person, painting or relationship, no cars, no mountains, etc. And > it fits with the goal of detachment, because it means that all the > things we enjoy are artificially constructed and should just be > dismissed as meaningless. Maybe that is true. > ------ N: Lodewijk thinks that it must be possible to clarify these things. For years and years we both play music together, two piano music or harpsichord and recorder (flute). There is sound and there is attachment to sound, or hardness when moving fingers. Not that there is awareness often, no, very seldom. But it is possible and it does not interfere with the music. Just as thinking of something else does not interfere. ------- > R: But there is another way to look at Buddhism, which is to be > able to look at a mountain with detachment, but also with joy and > to see that the mountain is there and the perception is there, but > there is no self there, and that makes it even more joyful. It is > "anatta of the heart." > ------ N: Lodewijk thinks this is well said. I know what you mean. I see the joy as lobha, but this does not mean: don't do it. It arises, it is conditioned. You say: "the mountain is there and the perception is there, but there is no self there". When we think that something stays or exists, there is clinging to "atta". Taking something outside for "self", that is also possible. But again: not forbidden. Perception arises and falls away with the citta, it cannot last. Better to know than not to know. But this does not have to thwart your enjoyment. ------ > R: And it is possible to experience your wife or husband and have a > moment where you feel that there is a lot of joyful appreciation of > them without detachment and with the self out of the way, and that > is a kind of opening of the heart and mind too. It is not by > deconstructing reality into little perceptual bits, but by seeing > in conventional reality something more than the self. That is what > I see as the path in everyday life, not just waiting for a moment > of insight into "seeing object" or "hardness" to arise and just to > see it perfectly. To me that's only a small part of the path. > > ---------- > N: Appreciation with mettaa is deeper, more meaningful than just having attachment. In the latter case one thinks of oneself again, not of the other person. Deconstructing reality into little perceptual bits, . This is not the development of understanding. It is not deconstructing reality, not waiting for the arising of insight. That would be unnatural, forced. It does not work that way. When you speak about insight I feel a lot still has to be explained. But I do appreciate your mail and understand your objections. Nina. #116232 From: Lukas Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala siila szmicio Dear Nina, You mentioned learning the dukkha as viparinama, could you pls explain 3 ways dukkha is manifested, I mean dukkha, viparinama, sankhara-dukkha? Best wishes Lukas #116233 From: Lukas Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:04 am Subject: Re: Belated best wishes for 2600th 'Guru Purnima' szmicio Dear Rajesh Best wishes for 2600th 'Guru Purnima', the first Dhamma sermon to 5 monks at Sarnath. Observe 8 precepts during rainy retreat and experience the purity of Dhamma. L: Yes we were informed by the teacher about that happening. My cousine finished his first meditation retreat that day, and the course was very beneficial to all of us. 2600 years and we still stiring this Dhammaweel :P It reminds me AS if you want to help others understand yourself. Best wishes Lukas #116234 From: A T Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:50 am Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Dear KenH, all, >KH:It is because there are only dhammas Was the Buddha breaking 4th precept or misleading us when He frequently talked about people, trees, empty places, 31 bodyparts, corpses in decomposition, sitting cross legged, putting forth strong effort, etc? Where has the Buddha said that: >============================================================= "Whenever I speak about people sitting crosslegged in seclusion what I really mean is that there are no people sitting crosslegged in seclusion, and you must not under any circumstances take these as an instruction to be done. When I say *do this* what I mean to say is that you should NOT do this?" >============================================================= Was Buddhaghosa breaking 4th precept or misleading us when he has said (for example about mindfulness of death): 4. One who wants to develop this should go into solitary retreat and exercise attention wisely in this way: 'Death will take place; the life faculty will be interrupted', or 'Death, death'. - VIII,4 Did he really mean that "one should not go into solitary retreat, one should not deliberately think such as 'Death, death'. Don't do these." "Now a clansman who, as a beginner, wants to develop this meditation subject should go to a good friend of the kind already described (Ch. DI, 61-73) and learn it. And the teacher who expounds it to him should tell him the sevenfold skill in learning and the tenfold skill in giving attention." - VIII,48 Did the Ven actually meant that one "should NOT go to a good friend" or that one "should NOT want to develop this meditation subject". >================================================================ "This meditation subject consists in giving attention to repulsiveness. Even if one is master of the Tipitaka, the verbal recitation should still be done at the time of first giving it attention. For the meditation subject only becomes evident to some through recitation, as it did to the two elders who learned the meditation subject from the Elder Maha- Deva of the Hill Country (Malaya). On being asked for the meditation subject, it seems, the elder [242] gave the text of the thirty-two aspects, saying 'Do only this recitation for four months'. Although they were familiar respectively with two and three Pitakas, it was only at the end of four months of recitation of the meditation subject that they became stream-enterers, with right apprehension [of the text]. So the teacher who expounds the meditation subject should tell the pupil to do the recitation verbally first" - VIII,49 >================================================================ Did the Venerable mean that one should NOT do these? If there are only Dhammas, isn't one asked to be mislead about concepts (which do not exist as only dhammas do?). Wasn't the commentary supposed to give additional details and make clear what was not clear? Why didn't the Ven. keep telling us "these are not instructions to be done. Don't you do them. Don't develop Self view about control". With best wishes, Alex #116235 From: Howard Nylander Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six worlds. uziyah Happy Anniversary Sister Nina, May you and Lodewijk enjoy many more years together, sacrificing so that others may find freedom through their extinction of suffering through illusions. Shared in the Spirit of Metta, .... howard, DSG's newest neophyte, ... #116236 From: Howard Nylander Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asked to share, .... uziyah "N: I hope you will find it useful and questions always welcome. Take good care of your health," ~ Nina Dank je wel lieve zuster, ~ howard #116237 From: A T Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:18 am Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Dear KenH, all, More on: "there are only Dhammas". Was Buddha misleading us, or breaking a precept, or was very incompetent at teaching it so that people (including Ven. Buddhaghosa) would get all the wrong ideas? >================================================================ "And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view." - MN117 >================================================================== Its wrong to deny these things or say that Buddha didn't teach them. In DN31 the Buddha taught lay follower how to properly treat parents, teachers, wife & children, friends & associates, servants & employees, ascetics & brahmins. He failed to mention for 1000th time that these things don't exist and are just momentary cittas. Or is there conspiracy to remove all passages about "people don't exist. Don't ever do anything. Don't take what I say as prescription. What I say is only a description of habits of people who are already had this habit for many lifetimes... Wait, didn't I say that people didn't exist at all? So who has what habit?" Also the way the Buddha taught was progressive, and there IMHO is a very good reason for that "Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch. " - Ud 5.5 "step-by-step talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path." - Ud 5.3 Please note when, what and in what order is taught. Interesting thing that not only "I have a Self" but also "I have no self" (MN2) are ***inappropriate*** reflections. What is appropriate is focusing on 4NT, which focus on actions and their results rather than on existence or non-existence of Self. And hey, when one inappropriately thinks (is there or isn't there a Self), then various problems arise. If there is no Self, or external people, then why is it bad to stick a knife in what doesn't exist? What is wrong in driving into trees? Nobody gets hurt, no passengers, there are no trees, and no 100 km/h cars. A much better use of time is to ask what is to be done? The Buddha recommends asking these questions to develop wisdom: >============================================================= 18."But here some woman or man when visiting a monk or brahman, asks 'What is wholesome, venerable sir? What is unwholesome? What is blamable? What is blameless? What should be cultivated? What should not be cultivated? What, by my doing it, will be long for my harm and suffering? Or what, by my doing it, will be long for my welfare and happiness?'" -MN135 >=================================================================== Please note the emphasis is on appropriate actions rather than beliefs in "The true Teaching which is true and all other teachings are false" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html#fnt-8 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.05.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.03.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.bpit.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.nymo.html With best wishes, Alex #116238 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:24 am Subject: Foul Flesh Frame! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Body is a bone-frame plastered with fat and skin: The body's nature: 300 bones, jointed by 180 joints, sewn into a chain by 900 sinews, plastered over with pieces of flesh, enveloped by inner membrane, fat and outer skin, with 9 openings constantly dribbling and trickling with tears, snot, saliva, slime, urine and excrement. Its bowels are inhabited by many fold bacteria, parasites and worms, the home of disease, the source of painful states, perpetually oozing from the nine orifices like a chronic open boil, and from thousands skin pores the stale sweat seeps, with bluebottles and their like buzzing round it, which when untended with tooth brush, washing, shaving, bathing, underclothing and dressing up looks just like a living corpse! In its natural wild then a body is a stinking nauseating repulsiveness, but by concealing its private parts under several cloths, by daubing it with various perfumes and salves, by pranking it with jewellery, it is faked up into a state being mistaken as 'I' & 'mine'! So men delight in women, and women in men, without perceiving the true nature of this body's characteristic foulness, now masked by this adventitious adornment. But in the ultimate sense, there is no place on any body even the size of an atom fit to lust after! Comically we loove the whole of this 'our precious temple, but when any such bits of it as head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, spittle, snot, excrement or urine have dropped off the body, then beings will not touch them! Though somewhat absurd, they are now ashamed, humiliated & disgusted with exactly the same matter as they adored before! But as long as any one of these disgusting things remains inside the body, though it is just as repulsive when inside, they take this body as agreeable, desirable, permanent, pleasant, & 'my beautiful self', since they are wrapped in the murk of ignorance and dyed with unseen and unrecognised affective greed for a physical self... Vism I 196 <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #116239 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six worlds. nilovg Dear Howard N, Op 16-jul-2011, om 19:43 heeft Howard Nylander het volgende geschreven: > May you and Lodewijk enjoy many more years together, sacrificing so > that others > may find freedom through their extinction of suffering through > illusions. ----- N: Thank you for your good wishes. Lodewijk said that he appreciates your keen interest. He said, "in the Dhamma, not in us. We are not important, we are not there, anyway." So, you speak Dutch? best wishes, Nina. #116240 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening nilovg Dear Alex, Op 16-jul-2011, om 18:50 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > On being asked for the meditation > subject, it seems, the elder [242] gave the text of the thirty-two > aspects, saying 'Do only this recitation for four months'. Although > they were familiar respectively with two and three Pitakas, it was > only at the end of four months of recitation of the meditation > subject that they became stream-enterers, with right apprehension > [of the text]. So the teacher who expounds the meditation subject > should tell the pupil to do the recitation verbally first" - VIII,49 ----- N: But not without right understanding. I just heard on a recording that the mahaa-satipa.t.thaanasutta includes everything as object of awareness. Mahaa means great. So the body parts, these are all the time with us. They can be means to be aware. Hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, these can be considered as just elements, not parts of my precious body. Those in your example became sotaapanna. This is impossible if the stages of insight, understanding of naama and ruupa, have not be developed successively. The idea of my body, my mind is to be abandoned. There is in the ultimate sense no body, only elements arising and falling away. This has to be realized by pa~n~naa developed in satipa.t.thaana. ------- Nina. #116241 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:41 pm Subject: Kusala intention (was, Re: The clansman who is a beginner ...) jonoabb Hi pt (115968) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > ... > pt: So, what's involved in experiencing a sense-object (e.g. a visual object) is: > > - vipaka citta, which does the experiencing - it arises due to intention that accompanied some past a/kusala javana citta. I assume the main condition for the arising of the vipaka citta here would be the asynchronous kamma condition? > =============== J: Yes. The citta that directly experiences an object through one of the 5 sense-doors is called the panca-vinnana citta. It is a vipaka citta, so past (asynchronous) kamma is one of the conditions for its arising (other conditions would include contact by an appropriate sense-door object). > =============== > - this vipaka citta arises at the eye-sense base. Eye-sense, which is a rupa, arises due to past kamma, so again due to intention accompanying a past a/kusala javana citta. So I assume asynchronous kamma condition is again at play here? Though I assume it would be due to some other moment of intention than the moment of intention that conditioned the vipaka citta itself? > =============== J: Right. The sense-base rupas are kammaja rupas (rupas that are conditioned by kamma). I believe the kamma in question would have to be kusala kamma, regardless of whether the sense-door consciousness is kusala or akusala vipaka. Previous akusala kamma may condition the non-arising of the sense-base (so that, for example, a pleasant object for which there was no supporting kamma could not be experienced). I'm afraid I have no idea whether there may be any correlation between the 2 lots of kamma (that conditioning the panca-vinnana citta and that conditioning the sense-base). > =============== > - there's the actual visual object that is contacted by the eye-sense and the vipaka citta. Visual object is a rupa, and it arises in a rupa kalapa. Rupa kalapa can be produced by citta, nutrition, temperature and kamma, as far as I remember. I'm a bit vague on what would be the difference in a visible object in a kalapa produced by any of these four compared to the others? And in case it is produced by kamma, would that again be asynchronous kamma condition? Thanks. > =============== J: I'm a bit vague on this myself :-)). As I understand it, inanimate objects such as rocks and things are conditioned by temperature alone. The body is, in general terms conditioned by kamma (e.g., shape, looks, sex, state of health, sense-bases), while the body also requires nutrition to survive and maintain good health. Examples of bodily rupa being conditioned by citta would be blushing when feeling embarrassed or elated, downcast look when feeling ashamed or dejected, etc. Hope this helps. > =============== > p.s. I got a mobile net device so i'm now able to slowly catch up with the list while commuting. > =============== J: Good to see you back and slowly catching up. I'm still in a slowly falling behind mode myself (perhaps I need to join the trend and start composing on my mobile :-)). Jon #116242 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala siila nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 16-jul-2011, om 17:54 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina, You mentioned learning the dukkha as viparinama, could > you pls explain 3 ways dukkha is manifested, I mean dukkha, > viparinama, sankhara-dukkha? > ------- > N: I looked at an old post of yours, a discussion with Fabian: > As I understand dukkha-dukkha is painful feeling, viparinama- dukkha is dukkha because all is fleeting, doesnt last so even it brings dukkha. sankhara-dukkha is dukkha of reaction. Like dukkha of dosa that reacts in its own way, and also dukkha of metta, it is only a reaction, cause this brings dukkha also. Only nibbana doesnt bring dukkha. --------- N: Viparinama dukkha is dukkha because of change, what is pleasant does not last. Sankhaara dukkha is dukkha inherent in all conditioned dhammas. They have to fall away and are thus no refuge. A quote from a correspondence between Chew and Sarah. Chew quotes from the Sacca Yamaka: wrote: >Guide 2: There are 3 types of dukkha: 1. dukkha-dukkha, 2. vaparinama dukkha, 3. sankhara dukkha. 1. dukkha-dukkha: Unendurable physical and mental suffering (dukkha vedana) is called dukkha-dukkha. (2 domanasasahagatam citta + 1 kaya dukkha = 3 mental states) 2. vaparinama dukkha: Happiness arising from physical comfort and mental joy (sukha vedana) is called vaparinama dukkha. (62 somanasasahagatam citta + 1 kaya sukha = 63 mental states) 3. sankhara dukkha: In addition to this equanimous feeling (upekkha vedana), all the other formations of nama and rupa of the mundane sphere are also called sankhara dukkha as they need constant conditioning. (55 upekkhasahagatam citta) ... Sarah: From this, we can easily understand why these kinds of dukkha are often summarised as referring to 'unpleasant feeling', 'pleasant feeling' and 'neutral feeling. I'm interested that they are actually said to the numbers of cittas specified above. With regard to sankhara dukkha, what I understand it that it is said to refer to the 55 upekkhasahagatam cittas (those not already included), but actually all mundane sankhara dhammas are included.> (end quote). ------ Nina. #116243 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:06 pm Subject: Re: Death philofillet Dear Nina > I thought of you when reading to Lodewijk from my "Lessons in > Detachment" (India talk): Ph: I am very grateful that you thought of me. > < Through satipatthna we shall have more understanding of life and > death. > We read in the "Kindred SayingsE(V, Mahvagga, Book III, Ch 2, 3, > Cunda) that the novice Cunda was in attendance on Sriputta who > passed finally away. Cunda and nanda came to see the Buddha and told > him about Sriputta's passing away. nanda said that he was > distressed by his death. The Buddha asked him whether when Sriputta > passed away he took with him the constituents of virtue, > concentration, wisdom, release and release by knowing and seeing. > nanda answered that he did not and spoke the following words: > > "But he was to me an adviser, one who was well grounded. He was an > instructor, one who could arouse, incite and gladden. He was > unwearied in teaching the Norm [Dhamma]. He was the patron of those > who lived the righteous life along with him. We bear in mind that > essence of the Norm, that patronage of the Norm possessed by the > venerable Sriputta, lord.E> "Have I not aforetime declared to you this, nanda, - how in all > things that are dear and delightful there is the nature of diversity, > the nature of separation, the nature of otherness? How is it > possible, nanda, in the case of what is born, what is become, what > is compounded, what is transitory,- how is it possible to have one's > wish fulfilled: Oh! may it not perish? Nay, such a thing cannot be.E> > We then read that the Buddha exhorted nanda to be an island to > himself, a refuge to himself, taking no outer refuge, but to take the > Dhamma as his refuge in developing satipatthna. > Through satipatthna we can gradually learn that in the ultimate > sense there is not a person who exists, only fleeting phenomena, nma > and rpa. Ph: I think I will write more in the other thread about this, but in passing, let me say that when I was in Montreal helping to take care of my mother, whose dementia has made her almost diabolic (I found myself remembering the girl in the Exorcist who was possessed by the Devil) there was a lot of reflection on the fleeting nature of what we take to be a person. There was an appreciation that the aversion I was feeling, the desire to escape was not me, it did not define me, there was no need to feel even worse because of it. And there was an appreciation that the mother I saw before my eyes was of course not the mother I had come to know over the years, and why would she be? It was perfectly naturally that changes were taking place. They were nastier than the changes that take place for people whose minds are sound and only go through humbling physical changes, but still just changes taking place according to conditoins. At every moment, a differeny aggreagation of khandas was giving rise to a being (and this is where we differ) who had come to be known as Mrs. A. C. But I couldn't go as far to say there was no "my mother" in front of me. Insight is not of that degree for me, and the huge gap between understanding that in theory and actually knowing it is too wide for me to entertain the theory as readily as you and others do. For me, enough to understand that there is no lasting person known as A.S, just a being whose components, mental and physical, were constantly shifting. That helped. Also, I will agree that when it comes to *my* understanding of my mother, of course it is always a concept that is being formed through the mind door. I had an interesting experience on my way back to Japan, when I stopped off at my sister's ranch in British Columbia. I was meditating one morning (I call it that, more like a breath yoga, really, the instructions I follow are not found in Vism, so I don't consider it proper Buddhist meditation, and that's fine with me, my purpose is to be happy and non-harmful, not to follow some Perfect Path) in front of a pond, with a tree on the other side of the pond reflected in it. I realized that the tree reflected in the pond was no more or less real to my understanding than the tree on the other side. Buth or concepts, formed through mind door processes. And it is understanding that is the point of Buddhism. The tree and my mother, they can only be experienced by me as a concept. Whether there is a being that has come to be known as my mother (I think there is) is not the point. So yes, ultimately, as object of understanding, there can only be a concept. Of course. > Acharn Sujin asked me: before becoming Nina, what was there? There > was a previous life but we do not remember this now. From the moment > of our birth we lead our present life, we are "this personE and we > experience happiness and suffering. However, in the ultimate sense, > no person exists, neither in this life nor in the preceding life. Ph:@I often think of something. When you die, someday, people will talk about your wonderful virtues, of how patient you were, of how much you did to make the Dhamma known. If I happen to still be alive at that time, and active at DSG, I will say such things. I will speculate that you will have found a very favourable destination in your next lifetime, based on all that great kamma of teaching Dhamma. Will there be reflection that it was all dhammas at work? Yes. Will there be an agreemement "there was no Nina_" No, not for me at least. That is going too far. At our level of panna, it is enough (in my opinion) that there is no lasting Nina, only nama and rupa rising and falling away again, to creat a being, a being that could only possibly be experienced as a concept to me, through mind door processes. That's enough for me. Maybe someday there will be conditions for panna to go a step further and say "there is no being", but it is not there yet and I would rather not force it by adopting a theory so very very far from the way I am graduallyu understanding things better.... But thank you! Metta, PHil > There are only impersonal elements which arise and fall away. Each > citta that arises falls away immediately to be succeeded by the next > citta. This can be seen as momentary death and birth. Thus, when it > is time to depart we do not lose anything, it is the same as the > departure at the end of our former life. In the next life there will > be again the experience of different objects, nma and rpa, which > arise and fall away. It is fortunate that in this life we still have > the opportunity to hear true Dhamma. > Ignorance is like a black curtain, it conceals the characteristics > of impermanence, dukkha and anattE > > > ------ > Nina. #116244 From: Vince Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does actual moment of insight require thoughts? cerovzt@... Send Email Send Email Dear Nina > N: Attachment and all defilements are realities, dhammas, but can we > say that they are perfect? Perhaps you mean something else when using > this term. We can say that they are true. when we feel anguish or sadness, we can know this is what happens. We can know this is true. Although also we can think it should be not present, it should be an error. However, attachment and defilements arises because causes and conditions, and there is not any error in their arising. This knowledge of the perfection of all what happens at every moment causes detachment and eradication of dukkha. I miss a similar formulation in Theravada, although I'm confident it should be in some place. best, Vince. #116246 From: A T Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >N:But not without right understanding. Right, I haven't said it otherwise. But when a person has right understanding, there are things further to be done to remove taṇhā, dosa and then the last fetter of Avijjā. Furthermore right views requires absence of clinging to wrong views. What conditions clinging of wrong views? Craving (taṇhā). Craving conditions clinging (taṇhāpaccayā upādānaṃ). Clinging includes clinging to views (diṭṭh"pādānaṃ) and clinging to doctrine of Self (attavād"pādānaṃ). So by counteracting craving, one counteracts clinging to views and Self. Contemplation of the body is great way to cool the desire for it. Consciousness that we have depends on this. So even it is not-Self. So this meditation helps to understand Dhamma. And it is only Buddha's teaching according to VsM. Also as we know samādhi conditions seeing-as-it-has-become. Samādh"panisaṃ yathābh"tañāṇadassanaṃ. SN 12.23 It does so because it removes the hindrances that weaken wisdom. AN5.51 "the development of mindfulness occupied with the body as a meditation subject, which is never promulgated except after an Enlightened One's arising, and is outside the province of any sectarians." - VsM VIII,42 With best wishes, Alex #116247 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death nilovg Dear Phil, Op 17-jul-2011, om 14:06 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > Ph: I think I will write more in the other thread about this, but > in passing, let me say that when I was in Montreal helping to take > care of my mother, whose dementia has made her almost diabolic (I > found myself remembering the girl in the Exorcist who was possessed > by the Devil) there was a lot of reflection on the fleeting nature > of what we take to be a person. ------ N: This must have been a traumatic experience, that dementia can go that far. How good you helped taking care of her, but how difficult it must have been for you. I appreciate your kusala. ------ > Ph: There was an appreciation that the aversion I was feeling, the > desire to escape was not me, it did not define me, there was no > need to feel even worse because of it. And there was an > appreciation that the mother I saw before my eyes was of course not > the mother I had come to know over the years, and why would she be? > It was perfectly naturally that changes were taking place. They > were nastier than the changes that take place for people whose > minds are sound and only go through humbling physical changes, but > still just changes taking place according to conditoins. At every > moment, a differeny aggreagation of khandas was giving rise to a > being (and this is where we differ) who had come to be known as > Mrs. A. C. But I couldn't go as far to say there was no "my mother" > in front of me. Insight is not of that degree for me, and the huge > gap between understanding that in theory and actually knowing it is > too wide for me to entertain the theory as readily as you and > others do. ------- N: I wrote: Through satipatthna we can gradually learn that in the ultimate > > > sense there is not a person who exists, only fleeting phenomena, > nma > > and rpa. Take note of the word: gradually learn! It takes a long, long time before this is actually realized. But we can begin to understand intellectually that it makes sense that there are only fleeting phenomena. A long learning process. ------ > Ph: For me, enough to understand that there is no lasting person > known as A.S, just a being whose components, mental and physical, > were constantly shifting. That helped. Also, I will agree that when > it comes to *my* understanding of my mother, of course it is always > a concept that is being formed through the mind door. ----- N: Yes, you understand very well what concepts are. > ------ > Ph:@I often think of something. When you die, someday, people will > talk about your wonderful virtues, of how patient you were, of how > much you did to make the Dhamma known. If I happen to still be > alive at that time, and active at DSG, I will say such things. I > will speculate that you will have found a very favourable > destination in your next lifetime, based on all that great kamma of > teaching Dhamma. Will there be reflection that it was all dhammas > at work? Yes. Will there be an agreemement "there was no Nina_" No, > not for me at least. That is going too far. ------ N: That is what Lodewijk is also saying. He finds that this way of formulating is not so clear. What I find helpful is: concepts are shadows of realities. But this does no go for all kinds of concepts. As you see in Survey, there are many classes of concepts. I appreciated your post which is very good, you made good and clear observations. ------ Nina. #116248 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Death philofillet Hi Nina, thank you very much for your supportive comments, very much appreciated. I will write again in a few days. Metta, Phil p.s the Exorcist comparison must be pretty shocking , I exaggerate of course. But she has become mean and abusive, with a tendency to physically strike people who get in her way or otherwise displease her. It is is clear that negative aspects of her habitual behaviour have been fully unleashed. It actually gave me a lot of confidence, because I know how my habitual behaviour contains less and less toxicity. I will thetefore not be like her if I get the disease. Perhaps that is naive, but good to believe and is one of the reasons I am so interested in behaviour. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil, > Op 17-jul-2011, om 14:06 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > > Ph: I think I will write more in the other thread about this, but > > in passing, let me say that when I was in Montreal helping to take > > care of my mother, whose dementia has made her almost diabolic (I > > found myself remembering the girl in the Exorcist who was possessed > > by the Devil) there was a lot of reflection on the fleeting nature > > of what we take to be a person. > ------ > N: This must have been a traumatic experience, that dementia can go > that far. How good you helped taking care of her, but how difficult > it must have been for you. I appreciate your kusala. > ------ > > > Ph: There was an appreciation that the aversion I was feeling, the > > desire to escape was not me, it did not define me, there was no > > need to feel even worse because of it. And there was an > > appreciation that the mother I saw before my eyes was of course not > > the mother I had come to know over the years, and why would she be? > > It was perfectly naturally that changes were taking place. They > > were nastier than the changes that take place for people whose > > minds are sound and only go through humbling physical changes, but > > still just changes taking place according to conditoins. At every > > moment, a differeny aggreagation of khandas was giving rise to a > > being (and this is where we differ) who had come to be known as > > Mrs. A. C. But I couldn't go as far to say there was no "my mother" > > in front of me. Insight is not of that degree for me, and the huge > > gap between understanding that in theory and actually knowing it is > > too wide for me to entertain the theory as readily as you and > > others do. > > ------- > N: I wrote: Through satipatthna we can gradually learn that in the > ultimate > > > > > sense there is not a person who exists, only fleeting phenomena, > > nma > > > and rpa. > Take note of the word: gradually learn! It takes a long, long time > before this is actually realized. But we can begin to understand > intellectually that it makes sense that there are only fleeting > phenomena. A long learning process. > ------ > > Ph: For me, enough to understand that there is no lasting person > > known as A.S, just a being whose components, mental and physical, > > were constantly shifting. That helped. Also, I will agree that when > > it comes to *my* understanding of my mother, of course it is always > > a concept that is being formed through the mind door. > ----- > N: Yes, you understand very well what concepts are. > > ------ > > Ph:@I often think of something. When you die, someday, people will > > talk about your wonderful virtues, of how patient you were, of how > > much you did to make the Dhamma known. If I happen to still be > > alive at that time, and active at DSG, I will say such things. I > > will speculate that you will have found a very favourable > > destination in your next lifetime, based on all that great kamma of > > teaching Dhamma. Will there be reflection that it was all dhammas > > at work? Yes. Will there be an agreemement "there was no Nina_" No, > > not for me at least. That is going too far. > ------ > N: That is what Lodewijk is also saying. He finds that this way of > formulating is not so clear. > What I find helpful is: concepts are shadows of realities. But this > does no go for all kinds of concepts. As you see in Survey, there are > many classes of concepts. > I appreciated your post which is very good, you made good and clear > observations. > ------ > Nina. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #116249 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:36 am Subject: Re: Death kenhowardau Hi All, I posted a message to Alex yesterday, but there's no sign of it. Maybe this one will have more luck, and push the other one through as well. Phil wrote: -------- > I will therefore not be like her if I get the disease. Perhaps that is naive, but good to believe and is one of the reasons I am so interested in behaviour. -------- KH: I won't pretend not to have similar thoughts. I often try to calculate my chances of a long life, free of dementia etc., and when my time does come, how will I behave? Lately the odds have worsened with more cases of cancer in the family coming to light, including the death of a cousin my own age. But even if I was statistically certain to live to 110, and to then die sanely and painlessly, what would be the benefit of such knowledge? There is no refuge in concepts. The only true refuge is in the knowledge of ultimate reality. Whether we are old or young, sane or demented, in pain or at peace, there are ultimately just momentary, disinterested namas and rupas. There is nothing to be afraid of, nothing worth clinging to, and nothing worth identifying with. Ken H #116250 From: A T Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:57 am Subject: Re: Death truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, >KenH: The only true refuge is in the knowledge of ultimate reality. Please provide relevant sutta quotes please, especially about "only" part. Are you saying that concepts are false and only ultimate reality is true? In DN31 the Buddha taught lay follower how to properly treat parents, teachers, wife & children, friends & associates, servants & employees, ascetics & brahmins. He failed to mention for 1000th time that these things don't exist and are just momentary cittas. Or is there conspiracy to remove all passages about "people don't exist. Don't ever do anything. Don't take what I say as prescription. What I say is only a description of habits of people who are already had this habit for many lifetimes... Wait, didn't I say that people didn't exist at all? So who has what habit?" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html#fnt-8 Was the Buddha misleading us and breaking the 4th precept with all this conceptual talk? Or was He forgetting to add "these don't exist at all." whenever talking about concepts? Whenever the Buddha was telling to do this or that, was He misleading us and breaking the 4th precept? Why didn't He remember to tell us that "whenever I tell you to do something, what I really mean is that you should never ever do it because that would foster self-view. I am being only descriptive never imperative prescriptive no matter what I say". Same for Ven. Buddhaghosa. Since messages don't always go through. I directly email to this group rather than post from the site. It seems to work that way. With best wishes, Alex #116251 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:45 pm Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Alex, > > Just a reminder before we lose track of our conversation: we were talking about people who claimed to be practising jhana and/or satipatthana when in fact they didn't even know what jhana and satipatthana were. > > --------------- > > A: Lets talk about Satipatthana instructions, especially about secluded place and posture for anapanasati . In the sutta it says: > > "And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself?So what do the commentaries say about ""having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building " sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect " > > (this instruction applies to some other aspects of the path as well). > > What do commentaries say about seclusion? > -------------- > > KH: Aren't you just supporting what I was saying? Many people of different faiths and philosophies like to go to a special place, adopt a special posture, and do something they consider to be meditation. That's fine if it it's what they want to do, but let's not pretend it is what the Buddha taught. > > Was that the point of your question? Were you saying, "The Buddha mentioned postures and secluded places. Therefore, that must be what satipatthana is. It must be a matter of sitting in a special way in a special place."? I am way behind on posts and am also jumping in, so apologies for all that. Just wanted to point out that it's kind of obvious that Alex is not saying that assuming a certain posture in a particular place *is* satipatthana or jhana. And there is no one who has ever meditated from the beginning of time, including any pre-human mammals who happened to fall into a concentrated state, such as orangutans or chimpanzees, who have ever claimed or thought that this was the case. So congratulations on constructing a perfectly empty and meaningless straw man in order to continue to promote your agenda that anyone who meditates is a complete imbecile. However, given that the Buddha *did* say to "go to a quiet place," "assume a certain posture," etc., it might be sensible to say that these are things that Buddha said to do *in preparation* for the meditative practice that leads to jhana or satipatthana. Now you can dispute that these physical conditions have anything at all to do with satipatthana, as I am sure you will, but then you will have to take that up with the Buddha, who you are directly contradicting. Best, Robert E. "meditating chimp extraordinaire" "Give me the right sitting posture and a couple of bananas, and we'll call it satipatthana! Why not? after all, we meditators are all complete idiots!" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #116252 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:58 pm Subject: Re: The Fourth Jhana: The Royal Road to Awakening - Ken H. epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: I wonder what you mean by "interdependently" as opposed to "dependently." Same thing. They are dependent for their qualities on the citta that came before. Since they are conditioned by the citta that came before, it is wrong to say that the citta before "falls away completely." It falls away just after handing off its influence to the next citta. That part that conditions the next citta does not fall away completely; it is "passed on" to the next citta. It is because of this handing off from one citta to the next that our experience has continuity and is able to give a sense of continuity, marked by sanna, etc. The single citta at a time is fine, but there is some crossing over in the falling away of one and the arising of the next; otherwise nothing would be passed on and we would have no experience per se of any kind. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #116253 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobE, > > Re 114895 > > I remember an analogy which seems to explain nicely both the transfer of tendencies from one citta to another, as well as the working of conditionality, without the need for storage place, substance, etc. The analogy is that of colliding billiard balls. When one ball is rolling, it has a spin, speed, direction, etc - so lets say these would stand for tendencies, or conditions. And then, when this ball hits another ball, these tendencies or conditions are transfered to the other ball by influencing its spin, direction, etc, of the other ball. > > Anyway, I guess what I find useful in this example is that there's no substance transfered from one ball to the other, so nothing lasting is necessary, nor is some sort of external permanent storage required, nor are the tendencies (spin, direction, speed) something substantial, etc. And yet, one travelling ball influences the next and transfers some of its characteristics for that one split moment of contact and never again. But even that is enough, sort of like one citta conditions the next one and never again. > > Best wishes > pt I would agree that this is a good analogy for the passing on of active qualities to active cittas. But I don't think it is quite so good for "latent tendencies," which would be represented by a ball that is not spinning, or one that is not hit hard enough to reach the next ball, even while the next ball goes into action. That is the problem. A latent tendency is not active until the conditions accumulate to bring it into an active role, so it would have to somehow "hang around" in a latent state without doing anything until it was put into action. One can see how this could happen in conventional reality. For instance we could posit a person who does not hit a particular ball until it is his turn, or something like that, so what that ball is going to do would be "latent" until then. But there is no such "place" in citta for anything to "rest," and there is no "substance" to remain "latent" until aroused. Since there is only one at a time, and it dies before the next one arises, where does the latent tendency "live?" I don't think there's a good answer to this within a single-citta conception of the universe. So far no one has any explanation for how the "latency" actually can possibly take place, nor any quotes from commentary to explain it. They are simply assuming it in evidence, but there is no reason to believe from anything I've heard so far that such is possible. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #116254 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:10 pm Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > So do you propose not even trying because one can make mistakes? How do you propose one does anapanasati as satipatthana for example? ... > Don't you think that Suttas and VsM have sufficient instructions? We can always refer to them, and I would prefer DIRECT quotations. > > > If the danger in intentional development is because it can grow self view, then: Don't study Dhamma because you might misinterpret it and get even more deluded and set back even more on the path. ... Live the life as you want (which requires doing things, often minor akusala), but don't meditate (potentially maha kusala) as that would be doing things. Doing acting with kilesas is permissible, but never is it fine to resist them and develop kusala. ... > Does ultimate teaching in any way reject helpful conventional supports? ... > Again VsM talk about places that can hasten one's development... > > Again, I do not believe that Buddha really meant that place doesn't count even though He said that it did. He didn't just talk about samatha, but mindfulness, insight and noble paths that cut off defilements. > > Neither the suttas nor commentaries seem to suggest that they are to be taken merely as descriptions and not to be followed unless one is already in the habit of doing so. You are of course right, Alex, and put it very well. Let s/he who has eyes to see, read what is actually written. It seems that the hardest thing to do is to take the Buddha at his word and follow his instructions. I don't mind any insight that comes from the commentaries, but the habit of substituting them or the words of any teacher for the direct words of the Buddha, and refraining from practice on that basis, is a mistake. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #116255 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:20 pm Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > ---------- > > A: part 2: > > >>KH:Aren't you just supporting what I was saying? Many people of different faiths and philosophies like ... > >> > > > A: Various religions promise heaven after this life for those who believe in them and follow their rules, > ---------- > > KH: No, not just "after this life"! There are meditators of all faiths and beliefs who like to "chill out" now, in this lifetime. > > And that was my point: the common concept of "chilling out" does not equal satipatthana. It is not what the Buddha taught. "Chilling out" in this lifetime is almost a direct translation of what Buddha called "a pleasant abiding in the here and now." Have you ever read a sutta? That would be *his* definition of jhana, and is not confused by anyone with satipatthana. Try to do some basic reading of the Buddha's teaching when you get a chance. The Buddha is actually the main guy in Buddhism, not your own favorite teachers or commentators, or your own made-up principles. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #116256 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:14 pm Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > ----- > >> KH: Aren't you just supporting what I was saying? > >> > > >A: So according to you Ptsm, VsM, and suttas are not correct? > -------------- > > KH: I am trying to keep our conversation on its original track. Most modern-day Buddhist meditators don't even know what the Buddha taught: they just do something vaguely called "meditation" and thereby consider themselves to be Buddhist. That is not true - you are making that up. And it's not nice to put down the community of meditators without knowing what you are talking about. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #116257 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:16 am Subject: Silenced... bhikkhu5 Friends: Sweet is Verbal, Bodily and Mental Silence! The Blessed Buddha once said: Kyamunim vacamunim, manomunimansavam, munim moneyyasampannam. Ahu ninhtappakam. Silenced in body, silenced in speech, silenced in mind, without inner noise, blessed with silence is the sage! He is truly washed of all evil... Itivuttaka 3.67 Calm is his mind. Calm is his speech. Calm is his behaviour. So is the tranquillity; So is the serenity; of one freed by the insight of right understanding... Dhammapada 96 Sambdhe vpi vindanti, dhammam nibbnapattiy ye satim paccalatthamsu samm te susamhit. Even when obstacles crowd in, then the path to Nibbna can be won by those who establish awareness, perfect focus and concentration. Samyutta Nikya 1.88 <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #116258 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:02 am Subject: The Art of Absorption! bhikkhu5 Friends: The 10 Tricks in the Art of Jhãna Concentration: 1: Making the basis pure: Means clean body, clean room and clean morality. 2: Balanced abilities = Energy equals concentration. Faith equals understanding. 3: Skill in the sign: A moment of absorption is remembered exactly for recollection. 4: One exerts the mind on all occasions, it advantageously should be pushed forth. 5: One controls the mind on all occasions, it advantageously should be held back. 6: One encourages mind on occasions it advantageously should be incited & cheered. 7: One observes the mind with calm equanimity, when things proceed appropriately. 8: One avoids all distracted, agitated, frantic, unconcentrated, & stressed persons. 9: One cultivates company with well focused, determined & concentrated persons. 10: One is resolutely determined upon that absorption level of jhāna concentration! Vism I 128. <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <...> #116259 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:25 pm Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Alex > > Kudos to you for sticking to this point, physical seclusion and seclusion of citta, the Buddha praised them both and people's insistence on denying this seems very peculiar. If they want to quwstion the suitability of the samattha meditation practices/directions laid out in Vism it would be so much wiser to refer to that list of obstacles, sych as family obligation, health and others. They are right to question whether people approach meditation in a wise way with suirable supporting factors, I think at Dhammawheel we someimes see evidence of Buddhist meditation turned into a plaything. But to deny there is a tradition of following instructions laid down in Vism is utterly puzzling to me. (Their insistence that the Buddha didn't teach about conventional behaviour is worse than puzzling but fortunately that belief doesn't extend very far so best not to get stressed about it, I tell myself, Jumping in, hi! I think the philosophy that is in back of these puzzling views is that all experience is really only mental phenomena, ie, arising cittas, and therefore there cannot be any efficacy or import, positive or negative, to physical conditions one way or the other. Since physical objects, conditions, bodies and persons are illusory concepts, to try to arrange such conditions is to become further mired in delusion. I don't agree with this, but I believe that is the real underlying view. Therefore it makes no difference, and cannot make a difference, whether you are sitting in a quiet cave or enjoying a ride on your surfboard, whether you are eating one vegetarian meal a day or are having drinks with dinner. It is all arising mental phenomena, and the only thing that is important is to develop insight into that fact. If one believes the physical world is real, or even a provisional vehicle of development, then physical actions and conditions can affect one's kamma and the path. But if one does not believe that any of that has any reality ore usefulness, then it cannot matter one way or the other, except to play tricks on the mind. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #116260 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:40 pm Subject: Kusala intention (was, Re: The clansman who is a beginner ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (115268) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > [RE:] My understanding of the teaching on kamma, prior to dsg, was that kamma's results can be delayed or instantaneous, or somewhere inbetween. The idea that almost all kamma expresses as sensory experience in a future lifetime seems unusual to me. I would like to see where this teaching on kamma is derived from, sutta or commentary. > > =============== > > J: I don't have a view on what percentage of kamma brings its result in the same or in a later lifetime (and I don't see this question as having any great bearing on the development of the path). However, the impression gained from reading the texts is in favour of results coming in later lives, in that there are many more references to that than to same-lifetime results. I was looking for some citation as to where this philosophy comes from. Is it expressed in commentary? I have not seen it in sutta, not that it is not there, but I am not aware of where it comes from. Who says that it is so? > > =============== > > > J: Even were this the case, how is it to be known that a given experience is the result of a given prior deed? As far as I know, there's nothing in the teachings on this, except in the context of one of the super powers. > > > > [RE:] It would just be something that was more obvious in certain cases, and in others could perhaps be inferred. > > =============== > > J: But what I don't see is how it could be obvious. Could you give an example of what you have in mind by an instance of kamma and vipaka that would be obvious. And is this something you feel you've been able to confirm by experience? On a conventional level, there are many examples of something that you put into motion coming back to bite you. I'm sure you can think of some on this level. On a momentary-arising level, no, I would not be in touch with this, which is why I would like to know where the teaching you accept comes from. The Buddha? Commentary? Where from? I know the Buddha has said that kamma in this lifetime will influence the conditions of rebirth. I have not however seen a teaching that says that present sensory experience is all vipaka and that none of it is the result of present conditions. That seems quite a bit more strange. > > =============== > > [RE:] BTW, I'm curious what you would consider convincing inferential knowledge of kamma. What form would that take? > > =============== > > J: I have nothing in mind other than what I've mentioned already. I would assume it comes with the development of insight. So what is the basis of your belief in this philosophy? Where do folks around here get it from? Did the Buddha ever espouse this explanation of kamma and vipaka? > > =============== > > > J: If there is the correct development of the path, there will be a clearer understanding of dhammas and their characteristics. > > > > > > Nothing could be more worthwhile than this. > > > > [RE:] Well, that's fine, but doesn't say much about direct understanding of kamma. > > =============== > > J: A direct understanding of kamma is not a prerequisite for the development of awareness/insight. I did not say it was. However, kamma is the subject and I am trying to find out whether there is a basis to say it is the correct understanding - right view as it were - to see present sensory experience as all vipaka from former lives, and to see all present kamma except for rare exceptions delivering their vipaka only in future lives. I have never heard a view of kamma that had cause and result so firmly separated from each other. In fact in the past I have heard the opposite. > So I don't see the need to feel that one has got kamma/vipaka all sorted out before there can be the beginning of the development of the path (i.e., awareness of presently arising dhammas). Never said that was the case; yet it is a subject of some importance that is worth sorting out at least to the minimal degree that we recognize what the Buddha actually said or didn't say about it. If you can help source this interesting breakdown of kamma, I would appreciate it. It must come from somewhere. I wonder if it comes from the Buddha...or not. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #116261 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:44 pm Subject: Kusala intention (was, Re: The clansman who is a beginner ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (115268) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > [RE:] Otherwise, should I believe the commentary anyway, and say "Well the commentary said it and they know better than me" when it seems like the sutta has been used as a convenient, unrelated jumping-off point? Even an arahant could go off onto a theme that they thought was a good one. It doesn't mean it is a true commentary in such a case. I may be speaking out of turn, but I am just saying what seems clear to me on its face. So I await a more knowledgeable explanation, if you can provide one. > > > > =============== > > > > > > J: It is never necessary (or appropriate) to accept the texts unquestioningly. (Nor for that matter should the texts be rejected because what they say cannot immediately be made sense of.) > > > > [RE:] I'm sure they have plenty of value in any case, but what worries me is a view that develops based on a preponderence of commentarial view that is all dhamma-oriented and reinterprets everything the Buddha says in a completely different light. I like to go back to the Buddha's own words, perhaps with more light shed by a commentary, but not accepting a substitute explanation over and above what is said in the original. And I think that can definitely happen when a specific interpretation is put forth in one way or another over and over again. > > =============== > > J: What you call the "dhamma(s)-oriented view" is the actual commentarial view (not a view *based on* the commentaries). Now, if you think about it for a moment, it's either the way things are or it's not. I don't think there's any ground for the teachings to be partly dhamma(s)-oriented and partly not. I was not saying that there was a difference between the dhamma-oriented view and the commentarial view. I was saying that there is clearly a difference in interpretation and emphasis in what is said in the commentaries and what is actually said and emphasized by the Buddha himself. I was also saying that I consider it a mistake to substitute the view of the commentaries for the view of the original teachings of the Buddha in sutta, especially when the interpretation of sutta given in the commentary contradicts what is actually said or substitutes a completely unrelated point or lesson for that which is said in the sutta in question. And this does often seem to happen. My understanding of Buddhism is based on the words of the Buddha, not on the words of the commentaries. I feel that the commentaries can help clarify what the Buddha said, but not substitute for it. If the commentaries clearly substitute or contradict the Buddha's words or points, then I will throw out the commentary and choose the words of the Buddha as the primary truth. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #116262 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:47 pm Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening kenhowardau Hi Robert E and Alex, ----- <. . .> KH: > > Was that the point of your question? Were you saying, "The Buddha mentioned postures and secluded places. Therefore, that must be what satipatthana is. It must be a matter of sitting in a special way in a special place."? > RE: I am way behind on posts and am also jumping in, so apologies for all that. Just wanted to point out that it's kind of obvious that Alex is not saying that assuming a certain posture in a particular place *is* satipatthana or jhana. And there is no one who has ever meditated from the beginning of time, including any pre-human mammals who happened to fall into a concentrated state, such as orangutans or chimpanzees, who have ever claimed or thought that this was the case. ------ KH: I am surprised at how how little you know of the world. I am almost a recluse, and yet I have met several people who think meditation is all that is necessary. The same people are likely to tell you that all religions and spiritual practices eventually lead "to the same place" regardless of "what that place might be called - Almighty God, Nirvana, the Oneness of the Universe . . ." I remember an instance on DSG, for example, where a newcomer was told it didn't matter what sort of meditation he did, or what he understood meditation to be; the most important thing was that he practised meditation *of some kind*. Surely you have heard conversations where people have described themselves as Buddhist and have been asked, "What does that mean? Does it mean you meditate?" and the answer has been yes. I've heard that more than once. And I don't get around much. :-) ------------------------- > RE: So congratulations on constructing a perfectly empty and meaningless straw man in order to continue to promote your agenda that anyone who meditates is a complete imbecile. ------------------------- KH: If that is my agenda then I should be the one to say it. Not you. -------------------------------- > RE: However, given that the Buddha *did* say to "go to a quiet place," "assume a certain posture," etc., it might be sensible to say that these are things that Buddha said to do *in preparation* for the meditative practice that leads to jhana or satipatthana. Now you can dispute that these physical conditions have anything at all to do with satipatthana, as I am sure you will, but then you will have to take that up with the Buddha, who you are directly contradicting. -------------------------------- KH: I can't imagine what you mean by "Take that up with the Buddha." We have have to rely Dhamma study - including sensible, constructive discussion - to learn the teaching of the Buddha. That is the way it has always been. We have to sort out the true Dhamma from all the false Dhammas, and it isn't always easy, especially when there is so much populist mumbo jumbo being touted as "Buddhism." Ken H #116263 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:01 pm Subject: Kusala intention (was, Re: The clansman who is a beginner ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (115268) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: The meditation that I think you have in mind was not something exclusive to monks who were followers of the Buddha. So the question then is whether it was central to the development of the path he taught (I of course would say that it wasn't). > > > > [RE:] I would disagree with that. What Buddha taught was distinct from the meditation being done around him. He taught satipatthana and insight meditation which were not practiced in that form or with that understanding. His use of jhana as foundation for insight was also unique, quite distinct from yogic states of samadhi. > > =============== > > J: Well, the Buddha certainly taught *satipatthana* and he certainly taught *insight development (bhavana)*. But whether he taught *satipatthana meditation* and *insight meditation* is the interpretation issue we have been discussing in this and other threads. > > If by meditation you mean the Pali term bhavana ("development"), as in samatha bhavana (the development of tranquility) and vipassana bhavana (the development of insight), then I think it's preferable to just speak of samatha or satipatthana or insight (or insight development). > > If by meditation you mean something else (for example, a particular way of developing samatha or vipassana or satipatthana, i.e., a particular technique or set of techniques, or activities to be undertaken), then you are referring to part but not the whole of samatha bhavana, vipassana bhavana or satipatthana. In this case I would question the usefulness of making a distinction that is not made in the texts (i.e., development of samatha/vipassana that involves meditation vs. development that does not), thereby emphasising one particular means of the development of sati and insight over their development in general. I believe it is you and others who follow the teachings of the Abhidhamma and commentaries within a particular interpretive scheme, who have created this exclusive split between the means of development, not me. I include both pariyatti-style development AND development through various meditation means and practices, as taught by the Buddha. In other words, my understanding of how to develop samatha and sastipatthana includes all the means available within the Dhamma, from studying sutta and Abhidhamma for a clearer development of pariyatti to sitting in seclusion or among a group if that is the case, and practicing anapanasati as taught in Buddhist sutta and the Visudhimagga. I don't take one form of development *above* another, I am just inclusive of the various means the Buddha taught to develop samatha and satipatthana, both indispensible elements for the develpment of the path. It is in fact those among us who say that meditation is *not* included in the Buddha's means of development who deny the words of the Buddha by interpreting them as "just a story" about some monks who already had the propensity for such practice, rather than seeing them as part of the teachings of the Dhamma. So I am happy to include both ends of the spectrum as valid Dhamma. Are you? > > =============== > > > J: Well some (but by no means all) did do what you call meditate, > > > > [RE:] What I call meditate? Are you really so anti-meditation that you don't even acknowledge that it really exists? Do you think it is a mistake to call sitting and doing a meditation practice "meditation," as millions of people do? This bothers me a bit, so I apologize for my tone, but it really seems that this level of rejection of the factual existence of a great Buddhist tradition is a bit over the top. > > =============== > > J: My only concern here is what the Buddha actually taught. In suttas like the Anapanasati Sutta, did he teach a sitting practice for satipatthana and for insight development, or did he teach satipatthana and insight development for monks who were highly developed in samatha and who habitually spent a large part of the day sitting? > > We know that in the Buddha's time, a large number of monks within the Buddha's dispensation had developed samatha to very high levels including jhana, and spent a lot of time in secluded places, sitting. > > When the Buddha taught to these monks, he did so in terms of their existing and potential attainments. So in this case it was satipatthana for those who are already experiencing, or have the potential to experience, jhana citta. > > As to whether what those monks were doing can be called meditation, to my understanding they had the daily routine they did (i.e., taking themselves off to a remote place, spending the afternoon sitting) because they had developed samatha to a high degree already and it was kusala citta all the way, and not because samatha was regarded as a sitting practice or because sitting was regarded as the way to develop kusala citta for a person lacking its development. > > To elaborate on that, from what I've read, these monks were developing samatha the whole day (and night), not just when they had finished their meal, done their daily chores and were free to sit. For them it was not a matter of samatha being a specifically 'sitting practice'. > > To my knowledge the Buddha did not recommend to non-sitting persons that they should take up a sitting practice. Well one has to speculate away from the suttas to determine that this was not his teaching. It's in the suttas, he teaches it in great detail, he says what the monk will do to develop this or that, and it is included in the body of sutta. It is taken up in the Visudhimagga and given more instructive detail. I personally think to take all that instruction and say it was only for those who were already in the groove is a denial of what is in front of one to read. One can easily determine if they are "up" for such a practice in this lifetime or not. If not, then for God's sake don't do it, but don't take all this writing on meditation and say it's not part of the teaching and that there is no such thing in Buddhism as meditation practice, when it is clearly there, was clearly practiced by all the Buddha's followers, and was the explicit practice by which Buddha reached enlightenment. Why would you want to cut out the main means by which all the monks of Buddha's time followed the path and say that it is not the path? That is crazy talk! :-) If you want to say that one should be sure it is right for them, given their propensities and temperament, then fine, we could agree on that. But to say it's not part of the path is just wrong. Sure, the monks were to practice satipatthana and perhaps samatha too when they were walking, sleeping and begging for food. The more the better. This does not take away from the special means provided by concentrated anapanasati, and that the Buddha and Buddhaghosa explicitly explained how it was to be used for such a purpose. > > =============== > > [RE:] You may not approve of meditation for your understanding of Dhamma but we can at least acknowledge that it is the understanding of a large part of the path for most Buddhists of every tradition, including Theravada, and is even spoken of prominently in parts of the Abdhidhamma. > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, what is spoken of in the Abhidhamma and elsewhere in the texts is not specifically a sitting practice. And for reasons explained above, even for the monks described in the suttas, the development of samatha/jhana was not specifically a sitting thing. Well, anapanasati was, and yes, it was also practiced in other situations as well, like any good spiritual teaching. > As regards the general understanding among students of the teachings, yes, I acknowledge I'm in a minority on this view ;-)) Well that in itself does not make it correct. :-) > > =============== > > [RE:] Non-Buddhist monks did not practice Buddhist meditation. Buddha taught satipatthana and anapanasati as Buddhist techniques for developing insight and understanding of the reality of the moment leading to enlightenment. > > =============== > > J: Again, on the use of 'meditation'. If by meditation you mean the 'technique' taught by the Buddha for developing insight and understanding of the reality of the moment, then that is a particular interpretation of the suttas. Nobody thought to call it that at the time or afterwards in the commentarial texts. I would agree that it is fashionable nowadays to use the term in translations of the texts, but that is a relatively recent usage. It's not a relatively recent practice however. It has been going on unbroken since the time of the Buddha. And guess where the tradition got it from? From the Buddha's own example and that of all his disciples - every single Buddhist monk in the time of the Buddha. That's quite a coincidence! > > =============== > > [RE:] The anapanasati and satipatthana suttas and many many other suttas spell out the steps of Buddhist meditation in its many aspects and applications, and it is not unclear or in any doubt that this is a big part of his path, complete with instructions. > > =============== > > J: Well again, as I said at the outset, this is the very question of interpretation we've been discussing. Sorry, but I do not see the Satipatthana Sutta as giving instructions for meditation as part of the development of the path. Well that is a semantical choice to see "there is the case where a monk..." as merely a description. If it were just a coincidence it wouldn't be included in the canon. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #116264 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:12 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was, The clansman ...) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > (115270) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > [RE:] The way you're saying it makes a more extreme case than I am making. I never said that "any effort exerted...will be kusala," just that the practices given by the Buddha, done with the right intention, are right practices. There may be all sorts of pitfalls and factors that will make one's practice correct or incorrect at any given time, but in the long run, adhering to certain principles will point one in the right direction. It just depends on what you think the correct principles are, and in that one is on their own. > > > > > > It's a comforting idea, but it's not what the teachings say. > > > > I'm not interested in being comforted, but I would like to know what your basis is for saying that it's not what the teachings say. Buddha talked consistently about the practices of anapanasati and satipatthana, and if you think that is not what they say, I would appreciate some sort of citation that directly contradicts my view. > > =============== > > J: I know of no instance in the teachings of the Buddha saying that he is specifying practices to be done and that, if done with the right intention, are right practices, or that it is a matter of adhering to certain principles and this will point one in the right direction. > > And I think if we look at, for example, the Satipatthana Sutta, it seems inconsistent with such an interpretation. Taking the first 2 parts of the section on contemplation of the body: > > ****************************** > (i). Mindfulness of Breathing > "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty place, sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps his body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him. > "Mindful, he breathes in, and mindful, he breathes out. ... Oh my God Jon. You have to really be sure of your view to use the exact description of sitting meditation as evidence that sitting meditation is not part of the teaching. Wow! So the Buddha says "...a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, ...sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps his body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him..." because he is *not* prescribing sitting meditation as a way to arouse mindfulness. It's just an incidental story about how monk A happened to arouse mindfulness by sheer coincidence, and this mention of sitting meditation is clear proof that the Buddha never mentioned sitting meditation. All I can do it repeat: "Wow!" How can you have a conversation when you see the exact evidence that proves the existence of sitting meditation as proving the nonexistence of sitting meditation. "Well it was never mentioned in the suttas." And then you quote it! Thanks for finding the quote for me. If you were not so committed to your interpretation of the teachings, I am sure as the skilled lawyer that you are you would acknowledge clear and precise evidence when you see it in front of you. > ****************************** > > If we take "mindfulness" and "mindful" to refer to actual moments of kusala (including of course where these occur only intermittently), then there is no mention of any preliminary practice to be done. The kusala quality is either present or it's not. At those moments when it's present, then satipatthana is occurring, when it's not then it's not satipatthana. So if something is not mentioned, it proves it's nonexistent, but if something is mentioned - like sitting cross-legged and focusing on the breath - that also proves that it's not there. In other words, anything that you don't priorly accept as valid is just not going to be seen as existent, no matter whether it is mentioned, not mentioned or sort-of mentioned. > ****************************** > (ii). The Modes of Deportment > "And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. > ****************************** > > Likewise here, if there are moments or extended periods of understanding, then it's satipatthana, it not then not. Well that is true anyway, in every case. That says nothing against the described practice for how such understanding is developed. > Then there is the passage that follows each of these parts within the section: > > ****************************** > "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or ... externally, or ... internally and externally. > He lives contemplating origination-things in the body, or ...dissolution-things..., or ... origination-and-dissolution-things.... > Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance, and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. > Thus, also, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body." > "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally ... Thus, also, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body." > ****************************** > Again, no practice is being given to be done. Just a description of kusala of this kind being developed. It is saying what is done within the practice of mindfulness. It is not just a random description of kusala. > > This is just one sutta, I know, but I think similar considerations apply to the reading of other suttas. > > Hope this clarifies why I do not see the Buddha's teaching as being one of practices to be followed. I see how you can abstract the statements of the results of practice away from the descriptions of the practice and treat them as two separate things. But that is not the way the sutta is structured or developed. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #116265 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:25 pm Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E and Alex, > > ----- > <. . .> > KH: > > Was that the point of your question? Were you saying, "The Buddha mentioned postures and secluded places. Therefore, that must be what satipatthana is. It must be a matter of sitting in a special way in a special place."? > > > RE: I am way behind on posts and am also jumping in, so apologies for all that. Just wanted to point out that it's kind of obvious that Alex is not saying that assuming a certain posture in a particular place *is* satipatthana or jhana. And there is no one who has ever meditated from the beginning of time, including any pre-human mammals who happened to fall into a concentrated state, such as orangutans or chimpanzees, who have ever claimed or thought that this was the > case. > ------ > > KH: I am surprised at how how little you know of the world. I am almost a recluse, and yet I have met several people who think meditation is all that is necessary. So what? So you have met a few people. Do you think they represent all the serious Buddhists who have been studying sutta and meditating for years or decades? Obviously not. So why do you impute those casual conversations with a few people you've run into with the body of Buddhists who meditate? That is awfully casual on your part, Ken, and then say "that's the way it is with meditators" as you did. > The same people are likely to tell you that all religions and spiritual practices eventually lead "to the same place" regardless of "what that place might be called - Almighty God, Nirvana, the Oneness of the Universe . . ." > > I remember an instance on DSG, for example, where a newcomer was told it didn't matter what sort of meditation he did, or what he understood meditation to be; the most important thing was that he practised meditation *of some kind*. > > Surely you have heard conversations where people have described themselves as Buddhist and have been asked, "What does that mean? Does it mean you meditate?" and the answer has been yes. > > I've heard that more than once. And I don't get around much. :-) Well since I get around a little more among Buddhists, I can tell you that this is not what I hear from anyone. If I talk to anyone who has actually studied Buddhism at all or who says that they do "Buddhist meditation" they talk about Buddhist teachings and Buddhist development of mindfulness and insight, not whatever half-baked nonsense you think they talk about. So yeah, maybe you'd better get out more before you make half-baked generalizations about whole communities you have no familiarity with. How about spending some time with serious Buddhists before you casually dismiss them as new-age idiots. > ------------------------- > > RE: So congratulations on constructing a perfectly empty and meaningless straw man in order to continue to promote your agenda that anyone who meditates is a complete imbecile. > ------------------------- > > KH: If that is my agenda then I should be the one to say it. Not you. Well that's my point, Ken. You make these really insulting statements about meditators and meditating all the time, but you can't back them up, and then you would like me to refrain from saying this is your agenda? Yes, you should be the one to say it, but it would be even better if you would find out what is really going on before you continue to make such generalizations. > -------------------------------- > > RE: However, given that the Buddha *did* say to "go to a quiet > place," "assume a certain posture," etc., it might be sensible to say that these are things that Buddha said to do *in preparation* for the meditative practice that leads to jhana or satipatthana. Now you can dispute that these physical conditions have anything at all to do with satipatthana, as I am sure you will, but then you will have to take that up with the Buddha, who you are directly contradicting. > -------------------------------- > > KH: I can't imagine what you mean by "Take that up with the Buddha." I mean that you are denying a specific part of his teachings. He explicitly said to do these things, and you are saying it is not the case. > We have have to rely Dhamma study - including sensible, constructive discussion - to learn the teaching of the Buddha. That is the way it has always been. Is it sensible and constructive to say that Buddhist meditators don't know anything about Buddhism or about what they are doing? That is a false statement Ken, and you shouldn't say it based on running into a couple of surfers or whatever who said they meditate. > We have to sort out the true Dhamma from all the false Dhammas, and it isn't always easy, especially when there is so much populist mumbo jumbo being touted as "Buddhism." How about the explicit sayings of the Buddha himself, as recorded in sutta. That's what *I'm* referring to, not a few strays who think they meditate. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #116266 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kind wishes. Six worlds. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 17-jul-2011, om 18:36 heeft Upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > I'm sending this directly to you just in case you may have > missed seeing it on DSG. ------- I did not see it, otherwise I would have thanked you. Nowadays there is some Yahoo trouble, I have to send posts twice. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > How wonderful, Nina!! My love and best wishes to you & > Lodewijk! May you have many more wedding anniversaries this > lifetime, and many more happy and loving lifetimes ahead to share, > culminating in bodhi for both of you! > ----------------------------------------------------- N: Thank you for your kind wishes. The date was July 16. -------- > You know: worldly > pleasure and Dhamma combined. At the same time I know that life is so > short and that it is not sure we make it to the diamond wedding day. > ------------------------------------------------------ > HCW: > None of us ever knows what will be - but always smile "now"!! > ---------------------------------------------------- > Lodewijk will like this, I am sending your post to him. ---------- > > The suttas about the shortness of life, conventional teaching if > people like to call it that way. I take all the help I can get, > conventional and paramatthic. Depending on the moment, the mood, the > inclination at that moment. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > That sounds very good to me!! :-) > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > ================================ > With metta, > Howard (to be married only a meager 44 years as of this coming > August, God/kamma/conditions willing. ;-) > > ----------- Nina. > #116267 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:56 pm Subject: Kusala intention (was, Re: The clansman who is a beginner ...) ptaus1 Hi Jon, > > pt: there's the actual visual object that is contacted by the eye-sense and the vipaka citta. Visual object is a rupa, and it arises in a rupa kalapa. Rupa kalapa can be produced by citta, nutrition, temperature and kamma, as far as I remember. I'm a bit vague on what would be the difference in a visible object in a kalapa produced by any of these four compared to the others? And in case it is produced by kamma, would that again be asynchronous kamma condition? Thanks. > > =============== > > J: I'm a bit vague on this myself :-)). As I understand it, inanimate objects such as rocks and things are conditioned by temperature alone. The body is, in general terms conditioned by kamma (e.g., shape, looks, sex, state of health, sense-bases), while the body also requires nutrition to survive and maintain good health. Examples of bodily rupa being conditioned by citta would be blushing when feeling embarrassed or elated, downcast look when feeling ashamed or dejected, etc. pt: This is one thing I don't quite understand - if we are talking about a "rock" - a rupa conditioned by temperature only, are we in fact talking about a visual object rupa? In other words, are those two the same thing expressed differently, or is the rupa that we later on conceptualise as a "rock" one thing, and visual object another? If they are different rupas, how does one "transform into" the other? > J: Good to see you back and slowly catching up. I'm still in a slowly falling behind mode myself (perhaps I need to join the trend and start composing on my mobile :-)). pt: Yes, I find it very useful - pretty much the only way I can participate now. Only two drawbacks so far - you can pretty much throw spelling and grammar out the window, and, composing messages in Yahoo Reply window is a bit risky - as the mobile connction isn't very stable, it's easy to loose what you just wrote when it just won't post, or sometimes it posts the same message repeatedly, etc. So, best to compose in some simple text editor and then copy-paste. Best wishes pt #116268 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated ptaus1 Hi RobE, > RE: I would agree that this is a good analogy for the passing on of active qualities to active cittas. But I don't think it is quite so good for "latent tendencies," which would be represented by a ball that is not spinning, or one that is not hit hard enough to reach the next ball, even while the next ball goes into action. That is the problem. A latent tendency is not active until the conditions accumulate to bring it into an active role, so it would have to somehow "hang around" in a latent state without doing anything until it was put into action. pt: How about the horisontal spin for the latent tendency? Say you hit the white ball with the cue, but you hit it on the side, so it spins from left to right, not just forward. So, it's merrily going straight along the table, and you can't even see that it's spinning left to right cause it's white. And then suddenly it hits the other ball, and the other ball, instead of going straight ahead like the white ball, suddenly goes right. And so the tendency gives rise to manifestation even though it was dormant (wasn't noticeable). Best wishes pt #116269 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How is wisdom accumulated epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobE, > > > RE: I would agree that this is a good analogy for the passing on of active qualities to active cittas. But I don't think it is quite so good for "latent tendencies," which would be represented by a ball that is not spinning, or one that is not hit hard enough to reach the next ball, even while the next ball goes into action. That is the problem. A latent tendency is not active until the conditions accumulate to bring it into an active role, so it would have to somehow "hang around" in a latent state without doing anything until it was put into action. > > pt: How about the horisontal spin for the latent tendency? Say you hit the white ball with the cue, but you hit it on the side, so it spins from left to right, not just forward. So, it's merrily going straight along the table, and you can't even see that it's spinning left to right cause it's white. And then suddenly it hits the other ball, and the other ball, instead of going straight ahead like the white ball, suddenly goes right. And so the tendency gives rise to manifestation even though it was dormant (wasn't noticeable). I think maybe you've got it! If the higher authorities will agree that a latent tendency is actually active but not yet active in a way that is noticeable because it hasn't yet come into contact with something that is activated by its subtle [up until that point] action, I think we're in business! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #116270 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:51 pm Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening ptaus1 Hi Alex, > A: Well I totally agree that understanding is a key. This has never been argued. What we do discuss is how it is gotten in the first place. pt: Agreed. Perhaps we can look into suttas and other passages which address directly what conditions understanding to arise. One sutta that comes to mind is that one that says it's the hearing of Dhamma (voice of another) and understanding it. Sorry can't quote atm. You probably know it as it has been quoted here many times. That one appeals to me the most as it strikes the most resemblance to my experience so far. Any favorite sutta passages for you that deal directly with what conditions understanding? Best wishes pt #116271 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death sarahprocter... Dear Phil, Your sharing of reflections are always helpful. --- On Sun, 17/7/11, philip wrote: >Ph: ....there was a lot of reflection on the fleeting nature of what we take to be a person. There was an appreciation that the aversion I was feeling, the desire to escape was not me, it did not define me, there was no need to feel even worse because of it. And there was an appreciation that the mother I saw before my eyes was of course not the mother I had come to know over the years, and why would she be? It was perfectly naturally that changes were taking place. They were nastier than the changes that take place for people whose minds are sound and only go through humbling physical changes, but still just changes taking place according to conditoins. .... S: The experiences you share are actually a lot more common than we may realise. My father was always so very kind, gentle, intelligent and patient when my brothers and I were young, but during his alcoholic bouts (which became more and more numerous), it was, as you'd describe, another character entirely. Changing khandhas all the time and we never know what lies in store for them. My grandmother, who also had alzheimers, always remained docile and gentle, but last year my mother had a very disturbing holiday with her sister who has early stages of the same disease. And as you say, no surprise that changes and different 'characters' according to conditions. Just 5 khandhas, but this doesn't mean for an instant that we should not think in terms of 'mother', 'aunt' or 'childhood memories'. It's all conditioned anyway, as are our different emotional responses from moment to moment. Your father must have been so very understanding and patient. Many would feel sorry for him and yet he's had the opportunity to develop such wonderful virtues during these difficult years. I'm sure all your family appreciate your 'home' visits very much as well. Have you had any further discussions with your father about your interest in Buddhism, I wonder? Btw, a bit of a side-track - I listened to part of an interesting talk on TV by Susan Greenfield, a neurologist, specialising in alzheimers and internet addiction and a link between them. She referred to how "Alzheimer’s is a recapitulation to childhood as all the unique connections your brain has made over the years begin to unravel and you retrace the steps to a childlike state of disorientation and confusion." You can google for more. Here's one article I found quickly on the internet addiction link with it - a similar social disorientation: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/susan-greenfiel\ d-the-toomuchinformation-society-694093.html ... >At every moment, a differeny aggreagation of khandas was giving rise to a being (and this is where we differ) who had come to be known as Mrs. A. C. ... S: Or to an idea of a being, known as Mrs A.C. ... >But I couldn't go as far to say there was no "my mother" in front of me. Insight is not of that degree for me, and the huge gap between understanding that in theory and actually knowing it is too wide for me to entertain the theory as readily as you and others do. For me, enough to understand that there is no lasting person known as A.S, just a being whose components, mental and physical, were constantly shifting. That helped. Also, I will agree that when it comes to *my* understanding of my mother, of course it is always a concept that is being formed through the mind door. .... S: And it would be very wrong to 'try' to see/hear/think there was no 'my mother'. That isn't the purpose of the Teachings, again it would be wrong effort trying to experience what we've heard to be correct. Again, as you know, the practice comes down to the understanding of what is experienced right now - the seeing, the hearing and the thinking of whatever concepts that thinking is conditioned to think. No need to respond, as usual. I appreciated your good reminders for the development of wholesome and peaceful qualities now while there is the chance. Wishing you well for these precious opportunities you have to show love, patience and caring for your mother. As we know, we can never repay the debt to our parents who have nurtured and cared for us for so long. Metta Sarah >The tree and my mother, they can only be experienced by me as a concept. Whether there is a being that has come to be known as my mother (I think there is) is not the point. So yes, ultimately, as object of understanding, there can only be a concept. Of course. #116272 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Chaver & Kalyanamitta: Good Friends, from Another [the Jewish] Trad... nilovg Hi Howard, As you know I always like ten minutes Torah. Op 29-jan-2007, om 14:12 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > Ten minutes Torah: Find someone to study with. Most commentators emphasize the importance of friendship as the criteria for finding a partner to study with. The requirements being an open heart and mind to draw a friend close to you. Yet when we look at the two phrases together, it is more than just a reference to companionship. This phrase speaks to the adult learner. According to Diane Tickton Schuster, this statement lies at the heart of successful Jewish learning. "Although many people are satisfied to access information independently, the true joy of learning comes when ideas are exchanged, different perspectives are offered, and thoughtful questions are introduced." (Jewish Lives, Jewish Learning: Adult Jewish Learning in Theory and Practice, UAHC Press, p. 56) Someone to study with is more than someone with whom to have coffee or to discuss local politics. The person with whom you study will share common interests, mutual respect for you and the text, and the desire to know more based on personal experiences and sharing. ----- N: I like these ideas. This is my experience when exchanging thoughts and study the difficult text about the latent tendencies with Han. I find it really helpful. It helps to delve more deeply. ------- Nina. > #116273 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 18-jul-2011, om 1:36 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > But even if I was statistically certain to live to 110, and to then > die sanely and painlessly, what would be the benefit of such > knowledge? There is no refuge in concepts. > > The only true refuge is in the knowledge of ultimate reality. > Whether we are old or young, sane or demented, in pain or at peace, > there are ultimately just momentary, disinterested namas and rupas. > There is nothing to be afraid of, nothing worth clinging to, and > nothing worth identifying with. ------- N: I find this helpful. When we start to worry we are actually thinking of stories, of the future that has not yet come. Best to develop understanding of the dhamma appearing now, this is enough. Then we shall be less concerned with "poor me". ----- Nina. #116274 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening nilovg Dear Alex, Op 17-jul-2011, om 16:05 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > N:But not without right understanding. > > A: Right, I haven't said it otherwise. But when a person has right > understanding, there are things further to be done to remove > taṇhā, dosa and then the last fetter of Avijjā. > > Furthermore right views requires absence of clinging to wrong views. > What conditions clinging of wrong views? Craving (taṇhā). > Craving conditions clinging (taṇhāpaccayā upādānaṃ). > Clinging includes clinging to views (diṭṭh"pādānaṃ) and > clinging to doctrine of Self (attavād"pādānaṃ). > > So by counteracting craving, one counteracts clinging to views and > Self. -------- N: Is it not the other way around? The sotaapanna has eradicated wrong view, but not yet clinging to sense objects. The non-returner has eradicated clinging to sense objects. This makes sense to me. We take clinging to sense objects for self, for 'my clinging', but it has to be realized as a conditioned naama. See the satipa.t.thaana sutta, the Application of Mindfulness of Citta and of Dhammas. He has to know citta with lobha and without lobha. There is a degree of detachment when we see lobha as an element, not my lobha. But this does not mean that lobha is abandoned. It is a first step. Even the sotaapanna has a great task lying ahead. It all goes step by step. -------- > > A: Contemplation of the body is great way to cool the desire for > it. Consciousness that we have depends on this. So even it is not- > Self. So this meditation helps to understand Dhamma. And it is only > Buddha's teaching according to VsM. > > "the development of mindfulness occupied with the body as a > meditation subject, which is never promulgated except after an > Enlightened One's arising, and is outside the province of any > sectarians." - VsM VIII,42 ------- > > N: In Vis. VIII, 43, details are given. Which sections deal with > insight and which deal with concentration. We have to consider all > these details, a complicated subject. > Indeed, some people developed both samatha and insight. By samatha > attachment to sense objects is temporarily subdued, but not > eradicated. The monk's lifestyle is the lifestyle of the arahat and > thus I can understand that they would be inclined to subdue sense > pleasures. In another post you refer to the Sigalovadasutta. Many good reminders for laypeople to develop the perfections in daily life. The ariyan disciple is mentioned, someone who does not take kusala cittas for self, but this is implied. It is all about the development of kusala cittas. No need to say: these are cittas, not a person. ------- Nina. #116275 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:09 pm Subject: Re: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) sarahprocter... Dear Rob E, Thx for your futher detailed comments in this thread. --- On Tue, 12/7/11, Robert E wrote: >S: We have the idea that we can calm the physical body or make it work in a particular way, but the Buddha taught his disciples (and us) from the very beginning: > "Body, monks, is not self. Now were this body self, monks, this body would not tend to sickness, and one might get the chance of saying in regard to the body, 'Let body become thus for me, let body not become thus for me'. But inasmuch, monks, as body is not self, therefore body tends to sickness, and one does not get the chance of saying in regard to body, 'Let body become thus for me, let body not become thus for me'." > In other words, it's an illusion that through meditation or any other means that the body can be controlled in any way. ... >R:The mistake is in thinking that meditation is about control or that by doing a practice someone is trying to intensify the effectiveness of the self. That's not what it's for! .... S: Or that there is any chance that by 'doing a practice' it will be possible to determine the rupas or namas in any way. This is exactly why we need to stick to 'bhavana' (meditation) as taught by the Buddha - i.e. the development of right understanding that is as anatta as any other conditioned dhamma. ... >R: Why mistake the purpose of the Buddha's own vehicle for liberation which he followed to the end of self, and instead define it as s vehicle of self. Isn't that directly against the Buddha's teachings and his own example? ... S: There is one way, one 'vehicle' for liberation for all - the eightfold path. This is not a path of 'doing a practice' or of imitating the 'appearance and props' that we imagine are so essential to liberation, but of direct understanding of the reality appearing at this very moment, understanding that it's impossible to get the chance to 'let' the rupas of the body or the various mental states become a particular way now. ... R:>That is why I ask the question, where did the Buddha ever say that those with other accumulations should not meditate? Or that one should be careful not to meditate unless you happen to find that you have always already been doing it? .... S: Whatever the accumulations - whether one is a gambler, an alcoholic, a Christian saint or a jhana attainer - the path is just the same. One moment at a time, one beginning of right understanding of the present reality as anatta at a time. This is why not only monks and jhana attainers became enlightened, but also pious lay-people, children and even addicts of one kind or other. ... R:>It doesn't even make sense. In the anpanasati sutta the more experienced monks were teaching hundreds of beginners to work with breath as object for the first time, training them, and then practicing with them. They were joining the Buddha in doing exactly what you are saying not to do! Why not follow his example and do what he did? If one doesn't have the accumulations to meditate, then one simply will not do it! Or will try it and stop. It's not rocket science to determine if someone has a predilection for something. If they are doing it, then it's what they are doing. If they are meant to do dry insight, then they will gravitate towards that. ..... S: At this very moment, if there virtue or generosity, it's good, it may be developed. If there is kindness, if there is samatha of any kind, it's good. It can be developed when there is right understanding. However, whatever virtues or fine qualities are developed, they will not lead one miniscule step closer to liberation if there is not the beginning of understanding of realities now as anatta and if there is not the beginning of detachment from whatever is conditioned. This is why so many of the wrong views mentioned in the Brahmajala Sutta relate to jhana attainments - if they are taken for being any progress or attainment on the path, if there is any clinging to them, they are nothing but a hindrance. .... R:>It's good to say that we should not force anything or think that one *must* meditate. But it is also good not to force anyone to give up meditation and say they must only follow dry insight or they will get mired in self-view. That is not true. It depends on what practice brings the Buddha's teaching into their life for *them.* But this is not accepted here. Instead it's "only one way" and that way must not include any actual practice apart from study. That is wrong! ... S: There are no musts, forces or shoulds involved. Simply, any practice other than the development of understanding of realities - whether jhana cittas, anger, seeing or visible object, for example - is wrong practice. This is why the Buddha referred to even jhana attainment as wrong practice in this regard. ... >S: We are used to thinking the same about our feelings, memories and other mental tendencies, that through the following of particular activities that they can be calmed or awakened in any way. Again as the Buddha stressed from the outset: > "Feeling is not self...and one does not get the chance of saying in regard to feeling, 'Let feeling become thus for me, let feeling not become thus for me'. > "Perception (sa~n~naa) is not self....The habitual tendencies are not self...one does not get the chance of saying in regard to the habitual tendencies, 'Let the habitual tendencies become thus for me, let the habitual tendencies not become thus for me'." >S: It might seem that if nothing 'can be done' that the path is therefore hopeless. On the contrary, it is the very understanding now of such dhammas as anatta and not being within anyone's control that is the Path that leads to enlightenment. If we are still attempting to control/calm/condition the bodily phenomena, the feelings and habitual tendencies that arise now with an idea that we have a chance of saying 'Let them be this way or that way', it indicates a lack of understanding of the core of the Buddha's message. > Even when it comes to consciousness, is there not the idea that through '(formal) meditation', through 'intentional practice' it can somehow be developed, calmed and controlled, that somehow this is the way to stop the 'monkey-mind' and develop the enlightenment factors? R:>Yes, and it is in fact true. It's not dependent on self, however, it's dependent on the wise teachings and instructions of the Buddha. Since one is following such instructions, one is not depending on self. There is no control of the self involved, it is merely doing what is told to be the path and following the Buddha. Where is the self in there, where is the personal control? It is not as if each practitioner has made this method up! ... S: The self is there when one has the idea of following instructions to pursue particular activities to bring about particular results rather than just understanding what is conditioned now! .... >R: You can't take a few suttas that describe advanced disciples who were privy to the Buddha's direct teaching and say 'this proves all his other teachings for thousands of monks on how to meditate should not be practiced.' That is like saying that one person in a city died from drinking milk, so no one else should ever drink milk again. It's not true logic. .... S: I thought you and Howard were asking for one sutta example of what some of us have been saying. I gave the Anattalakkhana Sutta as an example of a key sutta which is applicable to everyone and which clearly indicates the futility of any attempts to make any of the khandhas be any way whatsoever and that the only path meditation is through the understanding of what is conditioned already. .... >R: It is possible to interpret anything in any way if one has a predisposition to do so, but that doesn't mean that the actual direct words of the Buddha do not mean what they say. ... S: And this is what they say in the sutta you asked Nina and others for: "Wherefore, monks, whatever is body...feeling...perception...habitual tendencies...consciousness, past, future, present, or internal or external, or gross or subtle, or low or excellent, whether it is far or near - all body....feeling...perception....habitual tendencies...consciousness should, by means of right wisdom, be seen, as it really is, thus: This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self." S: This is the path, the meditation that the Buddha taught as leading to liberation: "....through dispassion he is freed" Metta Sarah ======= #116276 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:19 pm Subject: Dhamma Discussion in Bhutan, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Kh Sujin: < There are conditions to cling to what is seen, but even this has fallen away. Memory still clings and takes it for something permanent, even now while we are sitting here. Actually, each reality is so ephemeral, this is beyond expectation. It seems that everyone can experience the arising and falling away of realities, their impermamence, but realities arise and fall away without anyone knowing it. When one is fast asleep, the world does not appear. Where is the person we cling to, where are we? But whenever there is seeing the world appears. At the moment of hearing another world appears. There are only six worlds, but they arise alternately, so fast that they join into a whole, like "I" or some thing that is permanent. Before the Buddha could attain enlightenment it took a long time to become detached, to abandon clinging. The origin of dukkha, craving, should be eliminated until it is completely eradicated. Clinging to a result, clinging to the idea of "I want to experience the four noble Truths" , or "I want to have pa~n~naa", hinders, it closes the door to the Path leading to enlightenment. Who knows even right now that realities arise and fall away? For those who have developed right understanding until the clinging to objects has decreased, there is no obstruction to realising the true nature of the arising and falling away of realities, right now. So it is understanding that matters, understanding stemming from hearing, considering and really knowing what dhamma is. Most people think that the four noble Truths, the Dependent Origination, the aayatanas are in the book. But they are this moment.> ******** Nina. #116277 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Chaver & Kalyanamitta: Good Friends, from Another [the Jewish] Trad... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/18/2011 3:32:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, As you know I always like ten minutes Torah. Op 29-jan-2007, om 14:12 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > Ten minutes Torah: Find someone to study with. Most commentators emphasize the importance of friendship as the criteria for finding a partner to study with. The requirements being an open heart and mind to draw a friend close to you. Yet when we look at the two phrases together, it is more than just a reference to companionship. This phrase speaks to the adult learner. According to Diane Tickton Schuster, this statement lies at the heart of successful Jewish learning. "Although many people are satisfied to access information independently, the true joy of learning comes when ideas are exchanged, different perspectives are offered, and thoughtful questions are introduced." (Jewish Lives, Jewish Learning: Adult Jewish Learning in Theory and Practice, UAHC Press, p. 56) Someone to study with is more than someone with whom to have coffee or to discuss local politics. The person with whom you study will share common interests, mutual respect for you and the text, and the desire to know more based on personal experiences and sharing. ----- N: I like these ideas. This is my experience when exchanging thoughts and study the difficult text about the latent tendencies with Han. I find it really helpful. It helps to delve more deeply. -------------------------------------------- I quite agree. The process of discussion is very useful!! ----------------------------------------- ------- Nina. ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #116278 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] control nilovg Dear Alex, Op 14-jul-2011, om 16:54 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > But didn't the sutta explicitly said that feeling, perception and > consciousness cannot be examined separetely? > > ""Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not > disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from > another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one > feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. " > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html > > Please note that one cannot separate one from another, and one > cannot delineate the difference among them. > > "what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one > cognizes" . ------- N: It helps to use the transl of Ven. Bodhi and the notes taken from the co: THus here there is no reference to pa~n~naa that arises shortly after the naama khandhas have fallen away and can be aware of one characteristic at a time. ------ Nina. #116279 From: A T Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:22 am Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Hello Pt, all, >Pt:Agreed. Perhaps we can look into suttas and other passages which >address >directly what conditions understanding to arise. >=============================================================== It is crucial to remove obstacles to wisdom (AN5.51). Without removing them, wisdom cannot arise. Wisdom that cannot abandon (or at least suppress) hindrances is not really Wisdom. It is mere talk that may sound really profound to others... Also as we know, samādhi conditions seeing-as-it-has-become. Samādh"panisaṃ yathābh"tañāṇadassanaṃ. (SN12.23) And to get to deep Samādhi, Ethics (s"la) is one of required factors (AN11.2) So until one can get to samādhi that at least suppresses five hindrances, one has no required causes for real seeing-as-it-is. One sees what the hindrances want one to see. When there is sensual desire that object really looks attractive, and when there is anger that person/object is really repulsive because the hindrances do a very good job at showing only a part of what is there, never as it really is. If one truly sees things as they are, one will have no problem entering access concentration because one understands as it really is the drawbacks of sensual pleasures, anger and other hindrances. The more one understands the drawbacks of something, the easier it is to let go of it. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.002.than.html With best wishes, Alex #116280 From: A T Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >N:The sotaapanna has eradicated wrong view, but not yet clinging to >sense >objects. >===================================================================== The sotāpanna has eliminated 4 out of 8 lobham"la cittas (those that come with wrong view). Furthermore one of the reasons why we have views is because we cling toward our thoughts and beliefs. So whatever removes that clinging helps to "remove the oxygen" to wrong views. Furthermore to get the wisdom required for maggaphala, five hindrances need to be suppressed because they are obstacles to wisdom. AN 5.51 "And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html Impossible for maggaphala without enough suppression of 5 hindrances. "Now, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible." - AN 5.51 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html Only when five obstacles are abandoned, only then "superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision" is possible. With metta, Alex #116281 From: Lukas Date: Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:05 pm Subject: Re: Problems again szmicio Dear Pt Pt: That urge which arises and pushes you to reach for the cigarette in the first place - that's craving. And craving is anatta - not you. Once that fact sinks deeply enough, the whole thing just stops - that urge looses power over you. The urge has power to push you around because craving comes with pleasant feeling, and we all love pleasant feeling. That's why it's so hard to see craving as anatta and detachment to come about, because we in fact want more of the pleasant feeling. So, once the urge is recognised as craving when it arises, and at the time it becomes obvious that it is not you (anatta), and that the promise of good feeling is in fact short lasting (impermanent), then the craving looses the strength to push you to do things in the first place, such as reaching for the cigarette. So when the urge arises next time, it's weaker, even easier to recognise and eventually the urge stops arising altogether Lukas: The worst is that is not even less. So much clinging, and enjoying a pleasantness. What' if the lobha is not less? I am some kind of vedana hunter. I like a pleasant feeling and dislike unpleasant feeling, though I practice to observe those feelings as they are, I didnt got any detachment towards pleasant feeling. Best wishes Lukas #116282 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:05 am Subject: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: I thought you and Howard were asking for one sutta example of what some of us have been saying. I gave the Anattalakkhana Sutta as an example of a key sutta which is applicable to everyone and which clearly indicates the futility of any attempts to make any of the khandhas be any way whatsoever and that the only path meditation is through the understanding of what is conditioned already. > .... > > >R: It is possible to interpret anything in any way if one has a predisposition to do so, but that doesn't mean that the actual direct words of the Buddha do not mean what they say. > ... > S: And this is what they say in the sutta you asked Nina and others for: > > "Wherefore, monks, whatever is body...feeling...perception...habitual > tendencies...consciousness, past, future, present, or internal or external, or gross or subtle, or low or excellent, whether it is far or near - all body....feeling...perception....habitual tendencies...consciousness should, by means of right wisdom, be seen, as it really is, thus: This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self." > > S: This is the path, the meditation that the Buddha taught as leading to liberation: > > "....through dispassion he is freed" [begin impassioned speech] This teaching is good, as you say, for all, but it does not deny in any way the efficacy of meditation as a vehicle of this very path. It does not say that "in meditating one will inevitably take for self that which is merely arising phenomena." In fact, to the contrary, Buddha said directly that one who practiced anapanasati correctly would lead directly to the development of the enlightenment factors and could lead to enlightenment in 7 months, 7 weeks or even 7 days. It is clear that in saying this Buddha is saying that "this is the path." When you say that one must see anatta in everything, that is true! But there is a formula that is false: that in taking on a definite activity that one is trying to "control" the result, rather than engaging on the path to liberation as the Buddha taught, and that in doing so one engages self-view and seeks to empower the self, rather than surrender to the path of liberation from the self. I just think that formula is not true, and should be challenged, and perhaps looked into in more detail. Yes, I understand that your philosophy is that any intentional activity directed towards a spiritual end is a solidification of delusory self-view, but I just don't agree that this is the case. The entire Dhamma is nothing but an attempt to point the way out of delusion and to liberation from self, so there is a direct intention to *do something* in the entire Dhamma, including Dhamma study and "Right Understanding." It isn't for it's own sake but to *end suffering,* so there is no Buddhism without a goal, an end and an intention to effect a certain outcome. All of that is there from the beginning. The whole point of the 4 noble truths is that there is an end to suffering and by following the path we can *end it.* Without that intention there's no reason to follow Buddhism at all. So the only question is what leads to that end. I have good reason to believe that the path of meditation as outlined by the Buddha leads to the end of suffering the very results that you speak of - to see the nature of dhammas clearly and directly and to see that they are anatta and thus detach from them. Meditation is not the self trying to somehow control dhammas. It is the path leading to release of that control through an actual mechanism for doing so. It is possible that right understanding of the nature of dhammas and conditionality as you practice will also lead to the end of delusion through deeper and fuller understanding. I certainly accept the importance of such knowledge and what it can lead to. But the path of meditation is a direct and psychophysically designed path to develop mindfulness, concentration, insight and calming of the defilements towards the arising of deeper wisdom. It is not my path, but the Buddha's, designed, practiced and taught by him. There is no greater chance of self-view entering such practice as there is of self-view entering the study of dhammas. The self is the same; it is only the practice method that differs - both given by Buddha and practiced by his community under his direction. [end impassioned speech] Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #116283 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:17 am Subject: Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > S: I wouldn't say "there is a static dormant structure within anicca". It is dhammas which are anicca and no dhamma is static in anyway. The dormant tendencies are also changing all the time. At this moment of attachment or wisdom, the tendency of one or other 'accumulates' and the habit is affected in future. That is good, helpful to see that the dormant ingredients [per your analogy below] are "simmering" the whole time and in a state of accumulation or flux of their own... > ... ...I'd forget the static part. As I can smell the soup on the cooker, maybe we can think of the large pot full of different ingredients being heated up all the time......a constantly changing mix ready to produce a different brew depending on when there are conditions to taste it! When we do taste the soup on the table, we can't see the pot on the cooker, but without all that preparation and heating up over time, there'd be no brew at all. > > Time to taste! Well I appreciate the analogy, but it's made me quite hungry, imagining all the soup ingredients. So I suppose there's a dormant tendency for me to taste the nice-sounding soup, but since the conditions haven't all been met, [eg, I've got intention but not proximity,] it will remain an active, but unrealized tendency [eg, dormant,] til the soup-tasting conditions come to fruition [a strange word when referring to vegetables...] I will wait [im]patiently... Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #116284 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:27 am Subject: Re: wisdom and doing epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > There is an underlying presupposition in the Right View/experience-only view of the path, as I have suggested before, that there is no reality to physical existence, and that conditioned, physically-based reality is not part of the path. > .... > S: There are mental and physical realities arising and falling away now as we speak. both namas and rupas have to be known as they appear now. They are all real. However, the knowing, the understanding and the other path factors are all mental, all namas, not rupas. It is through the development of these mental factors that insight and eventually enlightenment is attained. Well the question as always is what *in actuality* will develop those capacities. You actually have a strategy, just as I have, in your understanding - that the "right way" to develop the necessary factors for liberation is to understand completely what is arising now, leaving it to happen on its own while developing correct intellectual understanding of the path. That is as much a strategy with a willful intention behind it as the desire to practice meditation to develop insight and satipatthana. It's the same in terms of 'self-view.' So the real question is not who has the less "self-involved" path, but what methods are effective for producing the path factors. No one would study or discuss a sutta or commentary if they did not think that doing so would lead to liberation from this morasse of suffering. If there is no desire to "get out" there is no Buddhist path at all. So I believe that *in reality* rather than theoretically that the actual practice of meditation develops the path factors, and I think that Buddha taught that this was the case very clearly and distinctly. He also clearly said to understand Dhamma and to develop further understanding of the teachings. So i believe that both are necessary and efficacious, but you believe that the latter, active practice, is a futile attempt at controlling mental development. However, there is nothing in sutta to suggest that this is the case - it is an idea that is based on later teachings of specific commentators and teachers. I believe that repeated subjection to the meditative situation will have an accumulative effect on the development of awareness, just as you believe that continued study and clarification will do so. And there's no more or less opportunity for self-view in either approach. The real question is whether one or both of these approaches will develop the path. In either case, the object is the nature of dhammas that appear now. There is no difference in that regard. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #116285 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Six worlds. epsteinrob Hi Nina. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > second attempt of sending. > > Dear Rob E, > I appreciate the care you have taken to send me this long mail. I > take my time to answer. > Lodewijk and I celebrate our wedding day (59 years) and I take your > mail to the restaurant to discuss with Lodewijk. You know: worldly > pleasure and Dhamma combined. At the same time I know that life is so > short and that it is not sure we make it to the diamond wedding day. > The suttas about the shortness of life, conventional teaching if > people like to call it that way. I take all the help I can get, > conventional and paramatthic. Depending on the moment, the mood, the > inclination at that moment. > Nina. > Op 16-jul-2011, om 5:32 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > What you say is true, and I don't feel that my friends at dsg take > > an unnatural approach to their lives. It's very obvious that you > > enjoy your humanity and relationships and accept ordinary activities. I appreciate your sharing this with me. I hope you had a lovely time on your Anniversary with Lodewijk. Whatever we are doing with "practice" and "Dhamma," the real moments of life, as you say, are very short, and also sometimes very sweet. Good to enjoy them with such good company! Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #116286 From: A T Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:41 am Subject: Conventional is not inferior. truth_aerator Dear Nina, KenH, all, From the commentary of to the Anguttara Nikaya: "Herein references to living beings, gods, Brahma, etc., are sammuti-kathā, whereas references to impermanence, suffering, egolessness, the aggregates of the empiric individuality, the spheres and elements of sense perception and mind-cognition, bases of mindfulness, right effort, etc., are paramattha-kathā. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of generally accepted conventions, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on sammuti-kathā. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of ultimate categories, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on paramattha-kathā. To one who is capable of awakening to the truth through sammuti-kathā , the teaching is not presented on the basis of paramattha-kathā, and conversely, to one who is capable of awakening to the truth through paramattha-kathā, the teaching is not presented on the basis of sammuti-kathā. There is this simile on this matter: Just as a teacher of the three Vedas who is capable of explaining their meaning in different dialects might teach his pupils, adopting the particular dialect, which each pupil understands, even so the Buddha preaches the doctrine adopting, according to the suitability of the occasion, either the sammuti- or the paramattha-kathā. It is by taking into consideration the ability of each individual to understand the Four Noble Truths, that the Buddha presents his teaching, either by way of sammuti, or by way of paramattha, or by way of both. Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena. AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55 http://kr.buddhism.org/~skb/down/papers/094.pdf So here there is a plain statement that sammuti-kathā is not inferior to paramattha-kathā and can be used for liberation. As we know, the Buddha didn't break 4th precept when He was using conventional speech (sammuti-kathā) and ALL his teaching is useful. He didn't have useless teaching. And one must not alter Buddha's words that were taught using sammuti-kathā through paramattha-kathā in order to arrive at what the Buddha has not said. With best wishes, Alex #116287 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:09 am Subject: Re: Conventional is not inferior. kenhowardau Hi Alex, From my point of view, you are determined not to listen. But I suppose, from your point of view, I am determined not to listen. Either way it's OK, because there is no controlling self that is determined; there is only a conditioned citta - arising and falling without influence from anyone. Is that how you see it too? :-) Getting back to your message: -------------- > A: From the commentary of to the Anguttara Nikaya: "Herein references to living beings, gods, Brahma, etc., are sammuti-kathā, whereas references to impermanence, suffering, egolessness, the aggregates of the empiric individuality, the spheres and elements of sense perception and mind-cognition, bases of mindfulness, right effort, etc., are paramattha-kathā. -------------- KH: I am sure this has been expertly explained many times on DSG, but here is my inexpert explanation. The only difference between the two "references" is in the manner of speech in which they are presented. It is similar to when an egg (for example) is referred to in English and then in Italian. It's still the same egg that is being referred to. ---------------------- > "One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of generally accepted conventions, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on sammuti-kath. --------------------- KH: Such a "one" would (according to my understanding) already have had an advanced training in satipatthana in previous lifetimes. Sariputta, for example, needed only to hear something like, "Of all things springing from a cause, the Buddha has described that cause," and he immediately penetrated the Dhamma in full. For us it is taking a little longer. :-) First, we need to hear all the details, and then we need to be reminded of them, time and time again. ----------------------------- > "One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of ultimate categories, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on paramattha-kathā. To one who is capable of awakening to the truth through sammuti-kathā , the teaching is not presented on the basis of paramattha-kathā, and conversely, to one who is capable of awakening to the truth through paramattha-kathā, the teaching is not presented on the basis of sammuti-kathā. There is this simile on this matter: Just as a teacher of the three Vedas who is capable of explaining their meaning in different dialects might teach his pupils, adopting the particular dialect, which each pupil understands, even so the Buddha preaches the doctrine adopting, according to the suitability of the occasion, either the sammuti- or the paramattha-kathā. It is by taking into consideration the ability of each individual to understand the Four Noble Truths, that the Buddha presents his teaching, either by way of sammuti, or by way of paramattha, or by way of both. Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena. AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55 http://kr.buddhism.org/~skb/down/papers/094.pdf ------------------ KH: So, Alex, which one are you? Does the conventional-speech teaching do it for you? Are you instantly enlightened when you hear it? Or are you instantly enlightened when you hear the teaching in paramattha speech? My guess is that you and I remain in the dark whichever means of speech is used. We have to hear the teaching in both conventional and paramattha speech, and we need to hear it as often as possible. Even then, progress is always going to be gradual. Very gradual! But that doesn't matter; there is no self in a hurry to reach its final cessation. ------------------------------- > A: So here there is a plain statement that sammuti-kathā is not inferior to paramattha-kathā and can be used for liberation. As we know, the Buddha didn't break 4th precept when He was using conventional speech (sammuti-kathā) and ALL his teaching is useful. He didn't have useless teaching. And one must not alter Buddha's words that were taught using sammuti-kathā through paramattha-kathā in order to arrive at what the Buddha has not said. ------------------------------- KH: OK, but please understand this sutta is talking about two manners of presenting *the same reality*. It is not talking about two realities (two Dhammas). There is only one Dhamma. Ken H #116288 From: Howard Nylander Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:40 am Subject: Re: Hijacked E-mail Address uziyah Hi Everyone, ... someone has again 'hijacked' my email address and send you something saying I am requesting your 'friendship' on something called "Jhoos". This was not sent my me. Beware! Thanks. ~ Howard ~ #116289 From: SARAH CONNELL Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems again dhammasanna Oops! Sent to wrong group. Please accept my apologies. May you be well and happy and always smiling, Sarah ________________________________ From: ptaus1 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 15, 2011 6:33:26 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems again Hi Lukas, Re 114637 > L: The problem is i drink some bears and smoke some cigarete Don't know about bears, but when it comes to quitting smoking, what worked for me was to consider the issue in terms of Dhamma. That urge which arises and pushes you to reach for the cigarette in the first place - that's craving. And craving is anatta - not you. Once that fact sinks deeply enough, the whole thing just stops - that urge looses power over you. <...> #116290 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:45 am Subject: In the Master's Presence! bhikkhu5 Friends: Contemplating the Qualities of the Buddha: Worthy, honourable and perfectly self-Enlightened is the Buddha! Consummated in knowledge and behaviour, totally transcended, expert in all dimensions, knower of all worlds, unsurpassable trainer of those who can be tamed, both teacher and guide of gods as well as of humans, blessed, exalted, awakened and enlightened is the Buddha !!! When a bhikkhu is devoted to this recollection of the Buddha, he is respectful and deferential towards the Master. He attains fullness of faith, awareness, understanding and merit. He has much happiness and gladness. He conquers fear and dread. He is able to endure pain. He comes to feel as if he were living in the Master's presence...! And his body, when dwelling in he recollection of the Buddha's special qualities, becomes as worthy of veneration, just like as a shrine room. His mind tends towards the plane of the Buddhas. When he encounters an opportunity for transgression, he has acute awareness of conscience and shame as vivid as though he were face to face with the Master. If he penetrates no higher, he is at least headed for a happy destiny. Now when a man is truly wise, His constant task will surely be This recollection of the Buddha Blessed with such mighty potency. Vism I 213 <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #116291 From: A T Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:00 pm Subject: Re: Conventional is not inferior. truth_aerator Dear KenH, all, >KH:From my point of view, you are determined not to listen >======================================================= When what you say is 180 degrees of what the suttas or even the commentaries say and don't have a very very good reason for your unorthodox interpretation, I think you understand why I have difficulty accepting some of the unorthodox statements that you make. >KH: I am sure this has been expertly explained many times on DSG, >========================================================= You mean explained away? Again, I don't find it very convincing when one's unorthodox claim is totally different from the orthodoxy that one is supposed to follow. >KH: The only difference between the two "references" is in the manner of >speech in which they are presented. >================================================================= And they both are valid for the Goal. >KH: So, Alex, which one are you? Does the conventional-speech teaching >do it for you? >================================================================== I understand that different people are different. For me, so called conventional is far better especially the parts regarding: aging, illness and death. Disgusting bodyparts, 4 primary elements, for example. I find sutta's Anatta analysis to be most relevant and non-problematic. The reason I really became interested in philosophy and then Buddhism was because of my crisis where I realized how fragile this body is, how impermanent the life is, how death is certain and it will override anything material that I do. I couldn't finish college after this, and was totally changed. I wouldn't be studying Dhamma otherwise. I am not that good like others. I was not moved by sanitary "trillions of cittas rising and dying every split second". And definitely not by "there isn't anything out there, no trees, no car moving at 100km/h into a tree, no pedestrians, etc". Somehow, day to day living seems to refute nihilistic teachings . I may be an exception, but I find it more effective and relevant for nibbidā the Buddha's instructions in Satipaṭṭhāna & Mahāhatthipadopama suttas dealing with the body. I understand that you would call these to be conventional teachings. The "ultimate" teaching, to me, seem to be more relevant when one is Anagami (who no longer has kāmarāga) and needs even more detailed teaching to let go of craving toward more mental states of becoming (in non kāma loka). "Trillions of cittas" arising doesn't seem to be that relevant to clinging toward this body and body of others. We cling to the body not because we don't realize that there are trillions of cittas happening every second. We cling to the body because of obstinately seeing nicca in anicca and sukha in dukkha... IMHO, With best wishes, Alex #116292 From: Lukas Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:18 pm Subject: Re: Death szmicio Hi Ken H, I would really appreciate if you will share more and more reminders of paramattha dhammas with me and its application in daily life. I think that may be very helpful to her more on that, since I am forgetful of those ultimate realities and it's characteristics or functions. I used to take them for me, that what I really am. The opportunity to Reflecting Dhamma is the greatest refuge. Best wishes Lukas > But even if I was statistically certain to live to 110, and to then die sanely and painlessly, what would be the benefit of such knowledge? There is no refuge in concepts. > > The only true refuge is in the knowledge of ultimate reality. Whether we are old or young, sane or demented, in pain or at peace, there are ultimately just momentary, disinterested namas and rupas. There is nothing to be afraid of, nothing worth clinging to, and nothing worth identifying with. > #116293 From: Lukas Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:28 pm Subject: Re: Death szmicio Hi Alex, Due to your doubts. Please be very open minded, we never knows what is the deep meaning of the Buddha words. Best wishes Lukas >Was the Buddha misleading us and breaking the 4th precept with all this conceptual talk? Or was He forgetting to add "these don't exist at all." whenever talking about concepts? Whenever the Buddha was telling to do this or that, was He misleading us and breaking the 4th precept? Why didn't He remember to tell us that "whenever I tell you to do something, what I really mean is that you should never ever do it because that would foster self-view. I am being only descriptive never imperative prescriptive no matter what I say". #116294 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:46 pm Subject: Re: Conventional is not inferior. kenhowardau Hi Alex, ---------------------- <. . .> > A: When what you say is 180 degrees of what the suttas or even the commentaries say and don't have a very very good reason for your unorthodox interpretation, I think you understand why I have difficulty accepting some of the unorthodox statements that you make. ----------------------- KH: I do understand why you have difficulty, but there is no 180 degrees involved. I am only repeating what the commentaries are saying. They are saying that the entire known universe is just one moment of consciousness containing a few momentary namas and rupas over which there is no control. And they are saying that is what the Dhamma is all about. You strongly disagree with that. I think I can understand why you disagree, and I don't expect you to ever change your mind. However, you will have at least learnt one thing from DSG. You will have learnt that there exists a version of the Dhamma that is supported by the ancient commentaries and is *radically different* from any other teaching known to man. So, even though you don't agree with it, you do at least know about something that very few other people in the world know about. And for that you can thank DSG, K Sujin, the ancient commentaries and (though you may disagree) the Triple Gem. In reverse order of importance, of course! :-) Ken H PS: I realise that the ancient commentaries and the Triple Gem are overlapping categories, but you know what I mean. :-) #116295 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/15/2011 7:51:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard CW, --------- <. . .> >> KH: <. . .> no control HCW: When someone says that there is no X, they are denying the reality of any X. To do so, they damned well better know what they are denying in denying X, else they are just sloganeering! ---------- KH: Are you asking me to define the word "control"? Any dictionary will tell you it means to exercise power or authority over something. "There is no power or authority that can be exercised over dhammas." How's that? :-) ------------------------------------------------- HCW: That's good! And it's also false. Every dhamma arises due to conditions; i.e., to other dhammas, often including thinking, planning, and willing. That conditionality is a "power or authority". Dhammas are controlled by conditions, including volition. ----------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- >> KH: No control means there are only dhammas. "Only dhammas" means there is no control. >> > HCW: No. "No control" has a specific meaning. There being only dhammas implies that *any* other imagined thing is nonexistent. However, "no control" means that something *quite specific* is not a reality. ------------------------ KH: It is because there are only dhammas that there can be no control over dhammas. ----------------------------------------------- HCW: Untrue. The control, as pointed out above, is a matter of conditionality. ------------------------------------------------ If there were something else - something other than dhammas - then there would be the potential for that "something else" to exercise control over dhammas. But there isn't, and so there is no control. ------------------------------------------------- HCW: What you SHOULD be saying is that there are no agents of causality, no actors. ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ > HCW: An aside: Dhammas are also matters of convention, IMO, because what is utterly dependent for its existence on what is not it and which changes while standing, not keeping a fixed nature, is not a separate "reality" but only a conventional, contingent object of mental creation and is not to be invested with reverence. ------------------------------ KH: I live in hope that one day you will become interested in the Dhamma *as it is found in the ancient Pali texts*. -------------------------------------------------- HCW: Likewise. The Buddha, and subsequently commentators, pointed out that dhammas change while standing. How does that fit with your idea of dhammas as "realities"with fixed nature??? The Buddha never used the term 'reality' to describe conditioned dhammas. He reserved that for nibbana. What he DID say of conditioned dhammas is: /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick " this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) and also /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none " such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. ... He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," " such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) ---------------------------------------------------- Until that day we can only talk apples and oranges. ---------------------------------------- >> KH: There are only [the presently arisen] dhammas. That changes everything. It means the world is not the way it is commonly perceived. >> > HCW: Certainly. And it changes even more so when one realizes that the dhammas as also not separate, self-existent realities, but are themselves matters of mere convention, though less gross than the macroscopic conventionalities folks generally cling to. ---------------------------------------- KH: That's just oranges to me. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------- HCW: "This is all unreal" said the Buddha. Oranges, of course!! --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------- >> KH: The mistake made by meditators (if I may say so) is to think that anatta does not make the world radically different from the way it is commonly perceived. >> > HCW: You may say so, but it doesn't apply to the meditators whom I know. In particular, it doesn't apply to me. ------------------------------------------------------ KH: Do you think there is control in ultimate reality? ------------------------------------------------ HCW: Please reread what I said above about control!! Don't try to put words in my mouth. Also, you relate meditating to beliefs that bare no relation to the matter of meditating or not, just to try to make a case that has no basis but that you cling to. ------------------------------------------------ When (for example) you decide whether to stretch out your arm or to not stretch out your arm, is there ultimately any such control? ---------------------------------------------- HCW: Huh??? The deciding and the willing result in the stretching out of the arm! That is control, certainly. ---------------------------------------------- Or are there really only [the presently arisen] dhammas, over which there is no control? ------------------------------------------------ HCW: What has happened has happened. History cannot be rewritten. What in the world is your point? ---------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------- > HCW: Oh, BTW, who are the "meditators" you speak of? Does your use of the label "meditator" tell one all they need to know? How very limiting that is!!! I suppose the Buddha and Saariputta and company didn't meditate? Do you claim that? If yes, I'd like to know your precise source of information. --------------------------------------- KH: I use the word "meditator" to apply to anyone who believes there is control over ultimate reality. ----------------------------------------------- HCW: That's nice. And I use 'honey' to apply to cow excrement, and 'lunatic' to apply to linguists. Hey, anything goes, I guess! ----------------------------------------------- -------------- >>KH: They think the Dhamma can still be a 'set of instructions to be followed'just as if there were such a thing as control. >> > HCW: The Buddha provided loads of instructions to be followed, even with regard to such mundane matters as to how to proceed when out begging. Try reading the suttas, Ken. -------------- KH: I love the suttas, and I am always saddened when I see them given a common, ordinary, meaning. Such a waste! :-) ---------------------------------------------- HCW: Wow. When did you attain such wisdom, Ken? Such an inside track? Should we bow at the feet of the guru, KenH, who really knows? ----------------------------------------------- Ken H ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #116296 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:25 pm Subject: f/w yahoo message about delays last week dsgmods Dear Friends, f/w message from yahoo. Any responses or qus off-list only thx. **** >Because of a problem related to the fix to our MTA servers last week, one of the servers, which was supposed to be fully offline, was still accepting messages (but not sending them out). As a consequence, approximately 7% of messages that entered Groups last week were never actually posted to the group archive or distributed via email. This includes messages that were sent via email, through posts on the site, as well as messages that moderators approved. The good news is that the problem should now be fully resolved and no messages sent today (7/18) should be affected. In addition, the messages that were stuck on the "out of rotation" server are being posted to the group archive and emailed out. The bad news is that because of the sheer number of messages that were stuck, it's going to take at least another day for these messages to all be sent and some of the sent messages will then have been delayed for up to a week. Plus, given this long delay, some users will have reposted the messages themselves to the group already, which means that the delayed message will then seem like a duplicate when it arrives. Our apologies for any inconvenience and confusion caused by this error, which was ultimately caused by the combination of the mistake with the server and a failure of the monitoring systems meant to detect such problems. We are already in the process of reviewing our systems to make sure a mistake like this never happens again. - Yahoo! Groups Team P.S. If you believe the problem has not been fully resolved and messages sent on the 18th (or later) have not posted, contact Customer Care using this form: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/contact/ygpostform1.htm\ l http://tinyurl.com/postingproblem If you do, please provide as much detail as possible on when you posted the missing message and how; and if the message was posted via email, please include the message header (from your "sent" folder). Thank you. #116297 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six worlds. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 18-jul-2011, om 22:30 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I appreciate your sharing this with me. I hope you had a lovely > time on your Anniversary with Lodewijk. Whatever we are doing with > "practice" and "Dhamma," the real moments of life, as you say, are > very short, and also sometimes very sweet. Good to enjoy them with > such good company! ----- N: Thank you. It was a very nice day with Dhamma and pleasure. And good company of course! Nina. #116298 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Alex & pt) - In a message dated 7/12/2011 7:04:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Alex (and Pt), I'd like to chime in here. ------------ >> pt: As said many times, this analogy does not apply to development of wisdom, because it is not something that can be akusala (when a mistake happens). > A: So one *has* to start somewhere. Habit just doesn't appear out of thin air. -------------- KH: As has been pointed out in previous DSG discussions, most people who set out to practise jhana don't even know what jhana is. They have never bothered to find out. They just do something vaguely called meditation and consider themselves to be jhana practitioners. Exactly the same thing happens with vipassana; most meditators don't even know what it is. They just follow a set procedure of some kind and call it Buddhist practice. You can follow a wrong practice all your life and it will never magically turn into vipassana. First find out what vipassana is! ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: So, Ken, I presume, then, that you DO "know what jhana is," that you ARE a jhana practitioner, and the same for vipassana? How's that working for you? (Or are you just a critic on the sidelines?) Apologies for the BS remarks! I know, of course, that you do not meditate. I'm just being a wise ass here! ;-) Now, to get more serious: I have read numerous suttas about jhana, I have practiced meditation for years, though certainly not obsessively, and while very, very far from having a mastery of jhana, I have had some experience with it -- enough to know first-hand, and not on the basis of blind faith, that it is an experiential reality. I regret not having yet gone further with cultivation of jhanas, but I intend to be more regular in my practice, for I have no doubt that it is a central element of Dhamma practice and is of enormous worth. I would be a fool not to engage in further practice, because it seems that do I have a bit of ability in that direction. It is only laziness that prevents me - a sorry excuse! ------------------------------------------------ End of rant. :-) ------------------------------------------------ HCW: Me, too! ;-) ------------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================ With metta, Howard W Hindrances /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains " going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it " and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #116299 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems again nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 15-jul-2011, om 14:05 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Lukas: The worst is that is not even less. So much clinging, and > enjoying a pleasantness. What' if the lobha is not less? I am some > kind of vedana hunter. I like a pleasant feeling and dislike > unpleasant feeling, though I practice to observe those feelings as > they are, I didnt got any detachment towards pleasant feeling. ------ N: No wonder. We need patience and viriya to be aware over and over again of just any naama and ruupa that appears, so that you get used to different characteristics. We should not select feeling in order to become more detached from pleasant feeling. We cannot expect detachment to arise soon. The first step is seeing naama as naama and ruupa as ruupa. Kh Sujin once said: awareness is like an atom in a day. And you remember Ven. Dhammadharo saying of someone who had only a moment of right awareness: very rich man! Each moment can be a condition for a next moment, but no desire for it. ------- Nina. #116300 From: Lukas Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:45 pm Subject: amoha, ditthi general doubts szmicio Dear Nina, Thank you. Does they both should be know? Shall they be know? What is a condition for less dukkha? Best wishes Lukas P.s Amoha is panna, samma-ditthi, though micha-dittchi or ditthi is not moha.?? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wro= te: > > Dear Lukas, > Op 11-jul-2011, om 23:01 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > Dear friends, > > What's a difference between ditthi and moha? I'am confused. micha > > ditthi is avijja? Is it moha? > > > ------ > N: Wrong view is different from ignorance. Ignorance is just not > knowing realities and it arises with each akusala citta. It has the > characteristic of blindness. > Wrong view is a distorted view of reality, a wrong interpretation of > reality, and it arises only with cittas rooted in lobha, attachment. > When one clings to a self who is hearing instead of knowing hearing > as only an element, there is wrong view. But wrong view is > accompanied by ignorance. > Still, they are different cetasikas. Moha is ignorant of the true > nature of realities and di.t.thi has wrong view about them. > > ------- > Nina. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #116301 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:35 pm Subject: Re: How does the habit start? jonoabb Hi Alex (116066) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Jon, all > > > > >J:No instruction there. Rather, a description of a bhikkhu who is >already in the habit of reflecting on the repulsiveness of the body. > >================================================================= > > And how did the habit "of reflecting on the repulsiveness of the body" start in the first place? > =============== J: The question of a 'first beginning' is one of those imponderables we don't need to concern ourselves with. The fact is we all have, to a greater or lesser degree, the habit for the development of kusala of various kinds. So there's a starting point already, whenever a habit has occasion to manifest; there's no need to set out to create a habit for a particular kind of kusala. In any event, to my understanding, the Buddha did not teach the cultivation of the intention to develop kusala in a deliberate manner as being the means of the development of kusala. Jon #116302 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:46 pm Subject: Re: should one try one's best? jonoabb Hi Robert E (116098) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: Yes, exactly so. Any combination of good and bad results could occur (the possibilities are infinite). > > [RE:] Thanks. I'll be careful then to make sure my good kamma is accompanied by other good kamma, rather than bad. I don't want to wind up having good friends, but drowning in a swamp at the same time. Hm...on the other hand, that sounds familiar.... > =============== J: :-)). But better than being in pleasant surroundings but without the good friends ... Jon #116303 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:44 pm Subject: [dsg] What Would Be Revising 2? Re: Revising 1: Arising of Mundane Paññaa jonoabb Hi Robert E (116097) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > Direct knowledge of a dhamma requires that the dhamma be presently arising. So I see the present moment as meaning, in the context of the teachings. the dhammas that are presently arising and that can be the object of awareness/insight (if that awareness/insight should arise). > > > > So while conventionally speaking the present moment is, as you say, the present conventional reality, I understand the Buddha to be pointing to a reality that could be described as reality in a deeper sense or, as it is described in the abhidhamma, in the absolute sense. > > > > Now as I understand the teachings, this reality in the absolute sense is not to be discerned by a deeper study of conventional things, but by coming to see how the world of dhammas is a world other than the world of conventional things. > > [RE:] Well, it seems that you are talking either of two worlds taking place simeoltaneously or of switching back and forth between two different worlds, or views. So when we are experiencing concepts dhammas are of course arising and falling at the same time but we don't see them. So is it a misapprehension of dhammas that are there at the moment that will be seen correctly when panna arises, or is it that we don't see the dhammas at all and instead our attention is diverted to concepts that are constructed out of separate whole cloth? > =============== J: The fact that there is thinking in terms of concepts does not necessarily mean there is a misapprehension of dhammas (after all, the enlightened person also thinks in terms of concepts). It's true that only when panna arises can dhammas be seen as they truly are (= insight, right view). Absence of right view, however, does not necessarily mean the presence of wrong view. Wrong view only arises when there is a positive view that is inconsistent with things as they truly are (as set out in the teachings). And even at such times, the moments of wrong view will be interspersed among other moments that are not accompanied by wrong view, that is to say, there is not blanket wrong view. Similarly, panna may arise in the midst of an everyday activity with a dhamma as its object, but since the panna is interspersed among other dhammas there is no interruption to the conventional activity or the perception of the conventional world. > =============== > [RE:] In addition to the question above, if concepts are not misapprehended dhammas, what "whole cloth" are they made out of? Is consciousness seeing an image that it itself created when it sees a concept? What exactly is the makeup and substance of a concept? It's obviously "perceivable" or we wouldn't experience them at all. So what the heck are they? Some kind of thought-form? > =============== J: To my understanding, concepts are mind-created. They are 'wired' into our memory, as a result of being accumulated over many lifetimes, so they are easily recalled. And they tend to be similar to other peoples' concepts (which makes life a lot easier than it would otherwise be :-)). Jon #116304 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:48 pm Subject: Re: Direct Textual Evidence (Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, I appreciate all your discussions and sincere comments. No offence has been intended, of course, and I thought I was sticking closely to the "direct textual evidence" as requested - certainly nothing personal at all... --- On Tue, 19/7/11, Robert E wrote: >[begin impassioned speech] R:>This teaching is good, as you say, for all, but it does not deny in any way the efficacy of meditation as a vehicle of this very path. It does not say that "in meditating one will inevitably take for self that which is merely arising phenomena." ... S: Rather than "deny in any way the efficacy of meditation", I've been saying that there is no path without meditation. However, I define path meditation in terms of bhavana, mental development, involving the development of pa~n~naa, right understanding of realities. I believe this is how the Buddha defined meditation too. At moments of bhavana, there cannot, by definition, be any wrong view or akusala of any kind arising. When the followers listened to the Buddha teach about dhammas as anatta and become fully enlightened on the spot, this was due to the development of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, right then and there. Meditation at those moments of fully comprehending the Truths. As Pt has been discussing with Alex, we cannot just generalise and say certain activities such as 'meditating on a retreat or in a yoga class or in our favourite chair at home' are kusala. And of course, there is not wrong view arising at each moment, but we can all learn for ourselves what our motives are when following any particular activities such as these. It'll be different for everyone. Yes, the same applies if we think that reading particular texts, memorising Pali or listening to a favourite teacher is itself the path too. Wrong practice can slip in anytime. ... R:> In fact, to the contrary, Buddha said directly that one who practiced anapanasati correctly would lead directly to the development of the enlightenment factors and could lead to enlightenment in 7 months, 7 weeks or even 7 days. .... S: Yes, 'correctly', with dispassion, not 'impassioned':-) Seriously, as Jon has been pointing out at length and very repeatedly over the years, whatever one's skills, accumulations, daily practice, inc. those with high degrees of samatha based on anapanasati, the Buddha taught the understanding of present dhammas without any selection at all. If you look in 'Useful Posts' under 'anapanasati', you'll see that Jon and Nina have given all the detail and quotes anyone could wish for on this aspect. ... >It is clear that in saying this Buddha is saying that "this is the path." When you say that one must see anatta in everything, that is true! But there is a formula that is false: that in taking on a definite activity that one is trying to "control" the result, rather than engaging on the path to liberation as the Buddha taught, and that in doing so one engages self-view and seeks to empower the self, rather than surrender to the path of liberation from the self. I just think that formula is not true, and should be challenged, and perhaps looked into in more detail. .... S: In brief, what we have been saying is that the path is not about situations, activities or any kind of concepts at all. It's just about the understanding of namas and rupas now. If the reality of breath rupa is appearing, it can be known, if visible object is appearing, it can be known, if passion is appearing it can be known. If anyone likes to sit quietly and focus on the breath, do any kind of breathing meditation or other reflection, that's perfectly fine. However, as Pt has been pointing out so well, wrong view can easily fool us into thinking it's the path when it isn't. .... R:> Yes, I understand that your philosophy is that any intentional activity directed towards a spiritual end is a solidification of delusory self-view, but I just don't agree that this is the case. ... S: I think you're putting quite a few words into my mouth, so I'll leave it there. I think that I've gone to pains to point to dhammas, in particular, the 5 khandhas which are not under anyone's control and will never behave as we might wish. I don't really have any interest in discussing whether particular activities are good or bad. Only panna, right understanding, can know the citta and various mental states when they arise like now! I'll leave the rest for another rainy day, but I appreciate that these are issues that you feel strongly about and which you feel frustrated that we're not addressing to your satisfaction, along with those dormant tendencies. (I liked your billiard ball discussion with Pt btw). Perhaps Pt, Azita, Ann or someone 'fresh' will be able to help further with the further points below too! Hope you're having a lovely summer in Washington, btw! Metta Sarah R:> So the only question is what leads to that end. I have good reason to believe that the path of meditation as outlined by the Buddha leads to the end of suffering the very results that you speak of - to see the nature of dhammas clearly and directly and to see that they are anatta and thus detach from them. Meditation is not the self trying to somehow control dhammas. It is the path leading to release of that control through an actual mechanism for doing so. It is possible that right understanding of the nature of dhammas and conditionality as you practice will also lead to the end of delusion through deeper and fuller understanding. I certainly accept the importance of such knowledge and what it can lead to. But the path of meditation is a direct and psychophysically designed path to develop mindfulness, concentration, insight and calming of the defilements towards the arising of deeper wisdom. It is not my path, but the Buddha's, designed, practiced and taught by him. There is no greater chance of self-view entering such practice as there is of self-view entering the study of dhammas. The self is the same; it is only the practice method that differs - both given by Buddha and practiced by his community under his direction. [end impassioned speech] #116305 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:49 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses jonoabb Hi Robert E (116106) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > [RE:] As I have said before, "a matter of interpretation" is not equal on all sides. Unless some evidence is presented to show why the Buddha would talk about and list all the ingredients of the body and really mean the 'four great elements' one should "interpret" that he means 'the ingredients of the body' as he has listed them. The commentator here says "what he really means by this is X" but presents no evidence that this is the case, or why Buddha would not say this directly as the commentator does. In such a case I presume logically, with no evidence to the contrary, that the commentator has his own sincere understanding of what the significance of the sutta is, and is "reading it into" the sutta, rather than this being the actual original intent of a Buddha who would be so skilled at hiding what he really meant to say. > =============== J: It's a matter of the significance of the simile of the sack of grains. If the intended meaning is as you say, the simile adds nothing to the description of the samatha with parts of the body as object, in which case it would seem unnecessary. Jon #116306 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:03 pm Subject: Kusala intention (was, Re: The clansman who is a beginner ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E (116261) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > [RE:] My understanding of Buddhism is based on the words of the Buddha, not on the words of the commentaries. I feel that the commentaries can help clarify what the Buddha said, but not substitute for it. If the commentaries clearly substitute or contradict the Buddha's words or points, then I will throw out the commentary and choose the words of the Buddha as the primary truth. > =============== J: I'm not aware of any actual contradiction between the commentaries and the suttas (at-first-glance unlikely explanations, yes). Happy to discuss any specific passages you may have in mind. Jon #116307 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Asked to share, .... nilovg Dear Howard N, Op 15-jul-2011, om 19:06 heeft Howard Nylander het volgende geschreven: > I > did find "The Buddha's Path," by Nina Van Gorkom on Amazon, and > "Buddhism in > Daily Life" on the Internet, which I have saved to my favorites and > will > download and study as time allows. I am so impressed by the copious > amount of > Buddhist wisdom shared by Nina. Thank you Nina. ------ N: I hope you will find it useful and questions always welcome. Take good care of your health, Nina. #116308 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conventional is not inferior. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Alex) - In a message dated 7/19/2011 1:46:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Alex, ---------------------- <. . .> > A: When what you say is 180 degrees of what the suttas or even the commentaries say and don't have a very very good reason for your unorthodox interpretation, I think you understand why I have difficulty accepting some of the unorthodox statements that you make. ----------------------- KH: I do understand why you have difficulty, but there is no 180 degrees involved. I am only repeating what the commentaries are saying. They are saying that the entire known universe is just one moment of consciousness containing a few momentary namas and rupas over which there is no control. And they are saying that is what the Dhamma is all about. ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: At any time, "this side of nibbana," I do believe there is experientially present only 1) consciousness of an object which is either a conditioned nama or rupa or a more complex mental amalgam of such elementary phenomena, together with 2) concomitant mental qualities and operations associated with that object. In brief, there is 1) consciousness of a paramattha dhamma or of a paatto [I presume that is the singular], together with 2) a bundle of cetasika. However, Ken, I understand the Dhamma to be mainly about the four noble truths, the three qualities, dependent origination, and the practice that leads to the realization of these and to awakening. Don't you consider these to be central? --------------------------------------------------- You strongly disagree with that. I think I can understand why you disagree, and I don't expect you to ever change your mind. ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: What do think you "understand" to be the reason for Alex's disagreement? Why "throw that out there" without clarification? How can Alex respond to such an empty assertion? ------------------------------------------------------ However, you will have at least learnt one thing from DSG. You will have learnt that there exists a version of the Dhamma that is supported by the ancient commentaries and is *radically different* from any other teaching known to man. ------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Have you studied these "ancient commentaries," Ken? Do they not emphasize what I spoke of as central? Doesn't Buddhaghosa emphasize these? ------------------------------------------------------- So, even though you don't agree with it, you do at least know about something that very few other people in the world know about. And for that you can thank DSG, K Sujin, the ancient commentaries and (though you may disagree) the Triple Gem. In reverse order of importance, of course! :-) Ken H PS: I realise that the ancient commentaries and the Triple Gem are overlapping categories, but you know what I mean. :-) ================================== With metta, Howard The Unreal and the Real /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) #116309 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six worlds. nilovg Dear Rob E, I appreciate the care you have taken to send me this long mail. I take my time to answer. Lodewijk and I celebrate our wedding day (59 years) and I take your mail to the restaurant to discuss with Lodewijk. You know: worldly pleasure and Dhamma combined. At the same time I know that life is so short and that it is not sure we make it to the diamond wedding day. The suttas about the shortness of life, conventional teaching if people like to call it that way. I take all the help I can get, conventional and paramatthic. Depending on the moment, the mood, the inclination at that moment. Nina. Op 16-jul-2011, om 5:32 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > What you say is true, and I don't feel that my friends at dsg take > an unnatural approach to their lives. It's very obvious that you > enjoy your humanity and relationships and accept ordinary activities. #116310 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hindrances. Was: concepts can lead to awakening nilovg Dear Alex, Op 18-jul-2011, om 17:32 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > > >N:The sotaapanna has eradicated wrong view, but not yet clinging > to >sense >objects. > >===================================================================== > > The sotāpanna has eliminated 4 out of 8 lobham"la cittas (those > that come with wrong view). > > Furthermore one of the reasons why we have views is because we > cling toward our thoughts and beliefs. So whatever removes that > clinging helps to "remove the oxygen" to wrong views. > > Furthermore to get the wisdom required for maggaphala, five > hindrances need to be suppressed because they are obstacles to > wisdom. AN 5.51 > > "And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, .... > > Impossible for maggaphala without enough suppression of 5 hindrances. > > -------- > N: Without denying that through the development of jhaana the hindrances are suppressed, there are other ways. It is useful to make cross references of suttas. S.N. V, 93, Ch IV, On Hindrances, § 8, restraint and hindrance. This section is on the bojjhangas, the factors of enligthenment. All 37 factors of enlightenment have to be cultivated, and among them are the seven bojjhangas. The four satipa.t.thaanas have to be developed, and in order to be able to, the conditions are listening, considering naama and ruupa and being aware of them. Also the hindrances are objects of mindfulness and understanding. At such moments the citta is kusala accompanied by pa~n~naa and the hindrances do not arise at the same time. We are exhorted by the Buddha to develop as much kusala as we are able to, through body, speech and mind. At those moments there are no akusala dhammas. But since we accumulated such a great deal of akusala, it is bound to arise too. Then it is beneficial to have more understanding of it and know it as a conditioned naama, not 'my akusala'. ------- Nina. #116311 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six worlds. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina & Lodewijk (and Robert) - In a message dated 7/16/2011 8:19:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Rob E, I appreciate the care you have taken to send me this long mail. I take my time to answer. Lodewijk and I celebrate our wedding day (59 years) and I take your mail to the restaurant to discuss with Lodewijk. ------------------------------------------------------- HCW: How wonderful, Nina!! My love and best wishes to you & Lodewijk! May you have many more wedding anniversaries this lifetime, and many more happy and loving lifetimes ahead to share, culminating in bodhi for both of you! ----------------------------------------------------- You know: worldly pleasure and Dhamma combined. At the same time I know that life is so short and that it is not sure we make it to the diamond wedding day. ------------------------------------------------------ HCW: None of us ever knows what will be - but always smile "now"!! ---------------------------------------------------- The suttas about the shortness of life, conventional teaching if people like to call it that way. I take all the help I can get, conventional and paramatthic. Depending on the moment, the mood, the inclination at that moment. ----------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: That sounds very good to me!! :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Nina. ================================ With metta, Howard (to be married only a meager 44 years as of this coming August, God/kamma/conditions willing. ;-) P. S. What is the exact date of your anniversary? Is it today, July 16? Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #116312 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six worlds. (part 1). nilovg Dear Rob E, It was a Chinese wok restaurant in a parc in Scheveningen. Looking out on the colourful flowers, and in between a sip of green tea and a bite of the food I read to Lodewijk your letter. Without Dhamma the celebration would be a bit empty. Pleasure and Dhamma. The hot soup helped Lodewijk to have less backache. He has trouble walking these days. Lodewijk found your letter very sympathetetic: We both understand what you were saying. The path of everyday life, the path of the heart, as separate from the six worlds of paramattha dhammas. Lodewijk thought that it would not be easy to answer your letter. I take some parts in order not to make it too long. Op 16-jul-2011, om 5:32 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I think that the dsg view is very natural towards life, but sees > the Dhamma as "wholely other." For instance, in this view of the > Dhamma it really doesn't make a big difference if one develops > conventional charity or metta, althought they are kusala. But the > Dhamma is only developed or realized in clear moments of individual > citta that are seen accurately, not in good works, ordinary > kindness, abstaining from improper activities, etc. In other words, > I think you see the Dhamma itself as one of knowing only, of > realization/insight only. I feel that the Dhamma functions both > conventionally and in paramatha terms, not just the latter. > ------- N: Lodewijk agrees and so do I. But I do not hear Kh Sujin saying: this is conventional, this is paramatthic. Insight and life are closely intertwined. I myself do not like very much the expression conventional this or that. But the reason that this is mentioned: at the moment of satipa.t.thaana, the object is not a situation or person, but a dhamma appearing through one of the six doors. Just for a moment, in between all the social activities (cooking, Alex), very naturally. I learnt this from her during the years I lived in Bgk, driving her and her father around to restaurants, going around to temples where we met people. Listening to her many good reminders within the situation of life. I wrote: "My Time with Acharn Sujin." (to be found in Zolag web) When crossing the street: elements on elements, hardness pressing on hardness. Just very natural. We went to see her sister in the train with her newborn baby: just a heap of dukkha, this baby. See how natural, and it is Dhamma. ------- > R: When one is kind, that kusala opens the heart; that leads to > positive wholesome attributes. Even if one is not aware of those > cittas, that is still part of the path. It is in that sense that I > think the dsg view is somewhat confined to intellectual knowing, > even in the case of direct knowing that may ultimately arise. It is > seen as knowing and insight of the mind, not of the heart. > ------ N: We understand and Lodewijk thinks this is well expressed. At first sight the teaching on paramatthas may seem rather intellectual, at first sight. ------- > R: That is not to say that I experience a cold or remote quality > from anyone here - I don't. But I think somehow the joy and > relationship side of things that is more conventional, although it > is enjoyed and expressed and is fine, is seen as separate from Dhamma. > ------- N: Never seperate from the Dhamma. > ---------- > N: > Also, a King asked the Buddha what the real cause is of all the > > trouble in the world. The answer is: attachment, aversion and > ignorance. > > These are paramattha dhammas, unwholesome roots. But is this sutta > > not about daily life: how to have more peace in the world. > > By studying the Abhidhamma we do not become estranged from the > world. > > R: I think that's very good, but if anyone brought up "peace in > the world," I"m sure they would be reminded that peace is only a > mometary dhamma, to be seen as an object of citta, and that the > "world" is an illusory concept. That is the problem! We can't talk > about Dhamma applied to ordinary things because the Dhamma is > restricted to cold, remote, presently unknowable, single qualities > like "hardness" or "metta." But it's not metta like a prolonged > experience of love and appreciation. It is just momentary insight > into a momentary phenomenon. I think that does sort of make the > Dhamma quite cold, doesn't it? > ------ N: No, not cold but it is very precise. We can be deluded by terms like world peace. What is it? Does it exist? Lodewijk also thinks it can be a hollow idea like the "millenium declaration". We may be disappointed about the way things are going in politics, but we can remember the real cause of failures: so long as there are lobha, dosa and moha there will be wars. The Buddha taught very precisely the way to overcome delusion, moha. A precise teaching is not cold. On the contrary. Metta cannot be a prolonged experience, that is a delusion. It will lead to great disappointment. But the beginning may seem quite prosaic, too analytical. First we have to become familiar with the characteristic of naama as different from the characteristic of ruupa before their impermanence can be realized, before there can be more detachment, less clinging to self. Before there will be less lobha, dosa, moha. --------- (to be continued) Nina. > #116313 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:13 am Subject: Effort. nilovg Dear friends, I read to Lodewijk today from my "Lessons in Detachment": < We read in the suttas that the Buddha spoke about energy or effort which should be exerted in order to understand the four noble Truths. We may wonder whether we should make an effort to develop right understanding. As soon as we think of effort, we cling, unknowingly, to the idea of "my effort". Wrong view of self is bound to arise, even though we know in theory that effort is a conditioned nma. We do not detect this easily, we need a good friend in Dhamma to remind us. I am very grateful to Acharn Sujin to point out to us time and again that we are always lured by attachment, that we are unknowingly overwhelmed by it. We read in the Commentary to the "Cariypitaka" (translated by the Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi) about the Perfections which the Bodhisatta developed for aeons. We read about the perfection of energy: "Energy devoid of wisdom does not accomplish the purpose desired since it is wrongly aroused, and it is better not to arouse energy at all than to arouse it in the wrong way. But when energy is conjoined with wisdom, there is nothing it cannot accomplish, if equipped with the proper means..." Each kusala citta is accompanied by the cetasika of effort or viriya, and this cetasika is also kusala. Thus, at such a moment there is no indolence. When kusala citta with right understanding arises there is right effort already, because of the appropriate conditions, and there is no need to think of effort or control. > --------- Nina. #116314 From: A T Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hindrances. Was: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >N: Without denying that through the development of jhaana the >hindrances are suppressed, there are other ways. Of course. Access concentration (due to vipassanā) can do for some. Some may need stronger concentration Jhāna, some lucky ones, lower (access). As to awakening while reading. As you know, according to the commentaries, there are 4 types of people. Two highest types (ugghaṭitaññu & vipañcitaññ") can get awakened while listening to discourse, two lower types (neyyo, padaparamo) cannot. Today it is said that only 2 lower types exist, so practice beyond listening and considering is unfortunately required. I wish it weren't. http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/individu.htm Listening and considering is required, sure. But for us, there are additional requirements which is actual practice. We should not take exceptional cases applicable only to exceptional people and make generalities out of them. What is enough for ugghaṭitaññu & vipañcitaññ" is not enough for neyyo. With best wishes, Alex #116315 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asked to share, .... sarahprocter... Dear Howard N, Thank you for your further reflections and examples from your life with your wife. I enjoyed hearing about your early morning hot-tub meditations facing the east. Sounds a lovely spot. I'm skipping my early morning swim today as the lovely sunrises and calm waters have been replaced by a heavy storm and huge swell! A good chance to catch up here a little. --- On Sat, 16/7/11, Howard Nylander wrote: >While my wife would be quick to agree with you, regarding the folly of speculating on past lives, I do feel, in doing so, has given me greater insights into why I have had such unusual propensities since a young child, ... yet ever mindful that the only true reality can only be found in the eternal moment of 'now'. Thanks for sharing. I do understand. .... S: I know what you mean. In Buddhism, as you know, the central tenet of the Teachings is that there is no 'me', no 'I' - just an ever on-going series of consciousness and mental states. Why is there suddenly some strange thought about something seeminly unconnected to the present discussion? The conditions lie back in aeons and aeons of thinking and accumulated tendencies. As the Buddha taught us, it's impossible to ever find a beginning to the rounds of becoming, the rounds of living in ignorance. However, there can be a beginning now of understanding life better as you also appreciate. ... >I am a bit confused, in trying to locate 'bookmarks' on DSG, ... S: Sorry, my mistake, it's called 'links' and you found it. ... >but have enjoyed perusing the 'links' where I have found a treasure trove of Buddhist wisdom. ... >I loved the wisdom in the rest of your post as well. It all resonated so well within me. ... S: I'm so glad you've made yourself so 'at home' here with us. ... >Thank you for sharing, dear sister. I did enjoy going through all the pictures, on DSG, and must assume much of your travels are related to DSG. I didn't realize I was on such a vast forum, and am inclined to 'speak little' in the company of so many great minds. .... S: If everyone spoke 'little', there'd be no forum!! Seriously, please think of it as an extended family and keep sharing your insights and reflections. And pls remember to add your pic when available! ... >....Yet, all is good in the eternal moment of now. I do love 'what is' in the moment of now. ... S: What do you understand to be the reality or truth of the "moment of now"? I ask because I think we have to come closer and closer to understanding that 'exists' now as opposed to what we imagine to exist now, but you may disagree. Metta Sarah ===== #116316 From: A T Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:23 am Subject: Re: How does the habit start? truth_aerator Dear Jon, all, >J:The question of a 'first beginning' is one of those imponderables we >don't need to concern ourselves with. When it comes to imponderables the Buddha listed only 4 Buddha-range of the Buddha, The jhana-range of a person in jhana, The [precise working out of the] results of kamma, origin of the world. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.077.than.html Nothing about habits themselves. The point is if one never starts to develop a habit, it will not be developed. Sometimes a person has to develop a habit even if it was developed in prior lives. Ex: A child needs to learn to walk, talk, learn information etc. You don't expect previous habits themselves to pop up in the child. Active practice is required here. >J: In any event, to my understanding, the Buddha did not teach the >cultivation of the intention to develop kusala in a deliberate manner as >being the means of the development of kusala. >========================================================== Sutta quotes? "You, too, monks, should relentlessly exert yourselves, [thinking,] 'Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence.' You, too, in no long time will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.005.than.html When the Buddha said "You, too, monks, should relentlessly exert yourselves," did He really mean that "You, too, monks, should NOT relentlessly exert yourselves"? When the Buddha has said about striving, did He really mean that one should NOT strive as it would simply build up Self view? Was Buddha telling us mistruth or did He keep forgetting to include "I am talking descriptively, never prescriptively. Don't under any circumstances do these. My instructions are not meant to be followed." Please remember that the Buddha has said: "Monks, I have known two qualities through experience: discontent with regard to skillful qualities[1] and unrelenting exertion.". Please note that Buddha has never said to "take it easy". Discontent is taught with regard to skillful qualities. One should never be Heedless. Contentment never means being subservient to kilesas and be content with them. Was the Buddha telling us mis-truth or did He keep forgetting to include "I am talking descriptively, never prescriptively. Don't under any circumstances do these. My instructions are not meant to be followed." With best wishes, Alex #116317 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hindrances. Was: concepts can lead to awakening ptaus1 Hi Alex, > >N: Without denying that through the development of jhaana the > >hindrances are suppressed, there are other ways. > > A: Of course. Access concentration (due to vipassanā) can do for some. Some may need stronger concentration Jhāna, some lucky ones, lower (access). pt: Just checking, aren't hindrances (akusala cetasikas) supressed (not arising) every time a kusala citta arises? As I remember, even a kusala citta without the root of amoha would still have no hindrances arising with it, right? So I mean, even a very "ordinary" moment of respect, good wishes, etc, would already have no hindrances with it. And then, the momentary arising of panna is just the one extra bit in those instances when the value of such instances is appreciated. Doesn't seem to me like some super strong concentration is needed to supress something (hindrances) which is not there in the first place? Best wishes pt #116318 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 aggregates of grasping & Arhat sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Wed, 13/7/11, A T wrote: >In SN22.122 it says: "An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates (pañcupādānakkhandhā) as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.122.than.html What exactly does pañcupādānakkhandhā mean? How can Arahant have pañcupādānakkhandhā (if it is upādāna which Arhat has none)? ... S: I'd like to add a couple of further comments on your good question. As you say, the arahant has no more clinging, no more upaadaana. However, the khandhas of the arahant are still clung to by others, they are still pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa because they are 5 khandhas which are the objects of clinging. Even the Buddha's khandhas were pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa - clung to by those with ignorance and attachment not yet eradicated. In the ultimate sense, there is no Buddha, no arahant, no worldlings - just khandhas which arise and fall away which are the object of clinging when attachment arises. Clinging now can cling to any dhamma, any khandha such as temperature, softness, feeling or thinking. We give these khandhas various names and think long stories about them, but actually, there are just 5 khandhas of grasping. The khandhas are dukkha, unsatisfactory in every sense because of the clinging to these dhammas which arise and fall away at every instant. Metta Sarah ======= #116319 From: A T Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hindrances. Was: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Hi Pt, > pt: Just checking, aren't hindrances (akusala cetasikas) supressed (not >arising) every time a kusala citta arises? Right. And what will you do to make it arise? Did the Buddha tell us to be content with present skillful qualities? "Monks, I have known two qualities through experience: discontent with regard to skillful qualities[1] and unrelenting exertion. Relentlessly I exerted myself, [thinking,] 'Gladly would I let the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if I have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing my persistence.' From this heedfulness of mine was attained Awakening. From this heedfulness of mine was attained the unexcelled freedom from bondage. "You, too, monks, should relentlessly exert yourselves, [thinking,] 'Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence.' You, too, in no long time will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now. "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will relentlessly exert ourselves, [thinking,] "Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence."' That's how you should train yourselves." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.005.than.html Toward the end of Buddha's life, Hist words to Ananda in DN16 were: "Please, Ananda, strive for the true goal, be committed to the true goal, dwell heedful, ardent, & resolute for the sake of the true goal. " The Buddha's last words were: ""Now, then, monks, I exhort you: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about completion by being heedful." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.5-6.than.html Basicaly in current ling, "Try harder"! And He chose it as his last instruction to us. The level of striving should be up to "Relentlessly I exerted myself, [thinking,] 'Gladly would I let the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if I have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing my persistence.' From this heedfulness of mine was attained Awakening. From this heedfulness of mine was attained the unexcelled freedom from bondage." Quite a strong effort there! I don't think that it just past passively happens with no present active intentions. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.005.than.html With best wishes, Alex #116320 From: A T Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:54 am Subject: (No subject) truth_aerator Dear Lukas, all, >Due to your doubts. Please be very open minded, we never knows what is the >deep meaning of the Buddha words. Of course I have big doubt when the Buddha and Commentaries says "X" and some people say that He really means "Not-X". You get the idea why I doubt. I do keep my fingers crossed... Path without effort would be great, and I'd love to have "Arahantship while cooking". With best wishes, Alex #116321 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:33 am Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening kenhowardau Hi Howard CW, Thanks for your reply, which I notice was held up in the mail for a whole week. I was beginning to think you didn't care. :-) ----------- <. . .> >> HCW: So, Ken, I presume, then, that you DO "know what jhana is," that you ARE a jhana practitioner, and the same for vipassana? How's that working for you? (Or are you just a critic on the sidelines?) Apologies for the BS remarks! I know, of course, that you do not meditate. I'm just being a wise ass here! ;-) ---------- KH: Apology accepted! :-) ----------------- > HCW: Now, to get more serious: I have read numerous suttas about jhana, I have practiced meditation for years, though certainly not obsessively, and while very, very far from having a mastery of jhana, I have had some experience with it -- enough to know first-hand, and not on the basis of blind faith, that it is an experiential reality. I regret not having yet gone further with cultivation of jhanas, but I intend to be more regular in my practice, for I have no doubt that it is a central element of Dhamma practice and is of enormous worth. I would be a fool not to engage in further practice, because it seems that do I have a bit of ability in that direction. It is only laziness that prevents me - a sorry excuse! ------------------ KH: It is not my place to pass judgement on your - or any particular person's - practice. But that won't stop me from saying what I understand mediation to be. I have learnt, from discussions here at DSG, that jhana is not what it is now generally understood to be. The practice of sitting cross-legged in a remote place and concentrating on a single object comes towards the *end* of another, much more substantial, practice. Sitting and concentrating become relevant to jhana only after there has been an enormous development of panna. That is, of the type of panna that knows kusala citta from akusala citta. Not many people today have that degree of that panna. Probably no one has. ----------- >> KH: End of rant. :-) >> > HCW: Me, too! ;-) ----------- For now! :-) Ken H #116322 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:23 am Subject: Re: Death kenhowardau Hi Lukas, ----- > L: I would really appreciate if you will share more and more reminders of paramattha dhammas with me and its application in daily life. I think that may be very helpful to her more on that, since I am forgetful of those ultimate realities and it's characteristics or functions. I used to take them for me, that what I really am. > The opportunity to Reflecting Dhamma is the greatest refuge. ------ KH: Thanks Lukas, I agree about the 'great opportunity' we have been given. I also share your appreciation of reminders. For them we rely on our Dhamma friends at DSG and elsewhere. But ultimately, of course, in the reality of the present moment, our only friends (and enemies) are the cetasikas that have been conditioned to arise. We should learn more about conditioned dhammas, and get to know who our real friends are. Ken H #116323 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/19/2011 6:34:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard CW, Thanks for your reply, which I notice was held up in the mail for a whole week. I was beginning to think you didn't care. :-) ------------------------------------- HCW: ;-) -------------------------------------- ----------- <. . .> >> HCW: So, Ken, I presume, then, that you DO "know what jhana is," that you ARE a jhana practitioner, and the same for vipassana? How's that working for you? (Or are you just a critic on the sidelines?) Apologies for the BS remarks! I know, of course, that you do not meditate. I'm just being a wise ass here! ;-) ---------- KH: Apology accepted! :-) ------------------------------------ HCW: Good. :-) ----------------------------------- ----------------- > HCW: Now, to get more serious: I have read numerous suttas about jhana, I have practiced meditation for years, though certainly not obsessively, and while very, very far from having a mastery of jhana, I have had some experience with it -- enough to know first-hand, and not on the basis of blind faith, that it is an experiential reality. I regret not having yet gone further with cultivation of jhanas, but I intend to be more regular in my practice, for I have no doubt that it is a central element of Dhamma practice and is of enormous worth. I would be a fool not to engage in further practice, because it seems that do I have a bit of ability in that direction. It is only laziness that prevents me " a sorry excuse! ------------------ KH: It is not my place to pass judgement on your " or any particular person's " practice. But that won't stop me from saying what I understand mediation to be. I have learnt, from discussions here at DSG, that jhana is not what it is now generally understood to be. The practice of sitting cross-legged in a remote place and concentrating on a single object comes towards the *end* of another, much more substantial, practice. ------------------------------------------ HCW: My meditation has breath "at the center," but the breath does not serve as sole object - only at first. ---------------------------------------- Sitting and concentrating become relevant to jhana only after there has been an enormous development of panna. ----------------------------------------- HCW: That just isn't so, Ken. ----------------------------------------- That is, of the type of panna that knows kusala citta from akusala citta. Not many people today have that degree of that panna. Probably no one has. ----------- >> KH: End of rant. :-) >> > HCW: Me, too! ;-) ----------- For now! :-) ------------------------------------ HCW: Sure! Why not! LOL! ----------------------------------- Ken H ============================== With metta - my friend, Howard Hindrances /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains " going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it " and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #116324 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conventional is not inferior. kenhowardau Hi Howard and Alex, ------ <. . .> >> KH: I do understand why you have difficulty, but there is no 180 degrees involved. I am only repeating what the commentaries are saying. They are saying that the entire known universe is just one moment of consciousness containing a few momentary namas and rupas over which there is no control. And they are saying that is what the Dhamma is all about. >> > HCW: At any time, "this side of nibbana," I do believe there is experientially present only <. . .> > However, Ken, I understand the Dhamma to be mainly about the four noble truths, the three qualities, dependent origination, and the practice that leads to the realization of these and to awakening. Don't you consider these to be central? ------- KH: I was trying to be brief. Otherwise, I would have mentioned the truths and the characteristics, as well as the realities. But what are the truths about, and what are the characteristics of? The presently arisen realities, of course! --------------- >> KH: You strongly disagree with that. I think I can understand why you disagree, and I don't expect you to ever change your mind. >> > HCW: What do think you "understand" to be the reason for Alex's disagreement? Why "throw that out there" without clarification? How can Alex respond to such an empty assertion? --------------- KH I am not sure what you are referring to. Alex has given his reasons for rejecting the paramattha-universe theory, and I think I understand those reasons. Where was the empty assertion? ---------------------- <. . .> HCW: Have you studied these "ancient commentaries," Ken? Do they not emphasize what I spoke of as central? Doesn't Buddhaghosa emphasize these? ---------------------- KH: Yes, but you and I understand the commentaries differently. I understand them to be descriptions and explanations of the presently arisen realities. You . . . Well, I had better let you say how you understand them. :-) Ken H #116325 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:45 am Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening kenhowardau Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > > Dear KenH, all, > > >KH:It is because there are only dhammas > > > Was the Buddha breaking 4th precept or misleading us when He frequently talked about people, trees, empty places, 31 bodyparts, corpses in decomposition, sitting cross legged, putting forth strong effort, etc? > > Where has the Buddha said that: > >============================================================= > "Whenever I speak about people sitting crosslegged in seclusion what I really mean is that there are no people sitting crosslegged in seclusion, and you must not under any circumstances take these as an instruction to be done. When I say *do this* what I mean to say is that you should NOT do this?" ----------------------------------- KH: I don't want you to believe the Abhidhamma; I just want you to know what it says. But even that is proving too difficult. You keep coming back with the same old argument. You tell us "If (as is being claimed) the Dhamma does not tell us to *do* something then it must tell us to *not* do something." But no, the Abhidhamma in the suttas actually tells us there is no self that can *do*, and there is no self that can *not* do. Nor (according to the suttas) is there a self that can *both do and not do*. Nor is there a self that can *neither do nor not do*. There are only dhammas (namas and rupas), arising, functioning and falling away by conditions. I am not asking you to believe it, but if you could just know what we were saying then you might be able to argue against our case, instead of misrepresenting it. :-) Ken H #116326 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:58 am Subject: Re: concepts can lead to awakening truth_aerator Hi KenH, Please answer my previous posts. Saying that I am wrong, all meditators don't get it while you know better, is not that believable and in fact preposterous. You also keep ignoring the obvious contradictions between what you claim and what the suttas and commentaries actually teach. And after all that you wonder why I disagree with your unproven unorthodox position. Of course I have big doubt when the Buddha and Commentaries says "X" and you say that He really means "Not-X" and leave it at that without any real proof. Please provide evidence for your unorthodox views because the suttas and commentaries refute your position. With best wishes, Alex #116327 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:53 am Subject: In the Dhamma's Presence! bhikkhu5 Friends: Contemplating the Qualities of the Dhamma: Perfectly formulated is this Buddha-Dhamma, visible right here and now, immediately effective, timeless, inviting each & everyone to come and see for themselves, inspect, examine and verify. Leading each and everyone through progress towards perfection. Directly observable, experiencable and realizable by each intelligence... When a bhikkhu is devoted to this recollection of the Dhamma, he thinks: I never in the past met a master, who taught a law that led onward thus, who possessed this talent, nor do I now see any such a master other than the Blessed One. Seeing the Dhamma's special qualities in this very way, he is respectful and deferential towards the Master. He entertains great reverence for the Dhamma and attains the fullness of faith and insight. He has much happiness and gladness. He conquers fear and dread. He is able to endure pain. He comes to feel as if he were living in the Dhamma's presence. When recollecting the Dhamma's special qualities, dwelling in this remembrance, his body becomes as worthy of worship as a shrine room. His mind tends towards the realization of the peerless Dhamma. When he encounters an opportunity for transgression, then he has vivid awareness of conscience and shame induced by recollecting the well-regulatedness of the Dhamma. And if he penetrates no higher, he is at least headed for a happy destiny... Now when a man is truly wise, His constant task will surely be, This recollection of the Dhamma, Blessed with such mighty potency! Vism I 218 The blessed Buddha said: Sabbadnam dhammadnam jinti; Sabbarasam dhammaraso jinti; Sabbaratim dhammarati jinti; Tanhakkhayo sabbadukkham jinti. THE SUPREME GIFT The gift of Dhamma surpasses all other gifts. The taste of Truth excels all other tastes. The joy of Understanding exceeds all other joys. The Elimination of craving overcomes and quenches all ill, all pain, all sorrow, and all suffering ... Dhammapada 354 Background Story <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #116328 From: Lukas Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:29 pm Subject: Re: (no subject) szmicio Hi Alex, Well, I understand you. The feeling you may have when confused, can be also an unpleasant one. I think you are really on a good way. Just forget ideas. Use your heart. Best wishes Lukas >A: Of course I have big doubt when the Buddha and Commentaries says "X" and some people say that He really means "Not-X". You get the idea why I doubt. I do keep my fingers crossed... Path without effort would be great, and I'd love to have "Arahantship while cooking". #116329 From: A T Date: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] control truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >N: You think about the two ways of teaching:in a conventional sense >and in the ultimate sense. Some people could attain enlightenment >when hearing the teaching in a conventional sense and some when >hearing the teaching in the ultimate sense. >================================================================= The unfortunate thing is that some people dismiss the "conventional" teachings found in the suttas through the usage of the "ultimate". The trick is to read the "conventional" through the prism of "ultimate" so as to not find what "conventional" teaching has said because conventional is not found in the "ultimate". Almost like looking for a pear in a basket where there is only an apple, then not finding it, declaring the basket to be empty of fruits. >N:It is evident that when speaking about 'by oneself' the Buddha did >not mean an atman. We could say: by these khandhas we call ourselves, >knowing that these arise and fall away each moment. We do not have to >repeat: by the five khandhas or this is written by the khandhas we >call Nina. Very awkward in speech. >================================================================= Right. So whenever someone uses conventional speech (such as teaching meditation instructions) it doesn't mean that one believes in a Self. One simply uses words to point to something. This is important. Words are words, but experience is experience. This is one of the reasons why one can't give someone awakening. You can't give the experience, but you can point the way. Thanks for your other responses in that thread. With best wishes, Alex #116330 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening kenhowardau Hi Howard, I almost forgot this one! ------------ <. . .> >> KH: "There is no power or authority that can be exercised over dhammas." How's that? :-) >> > HCW: That's good! And it's also false. Every dhamma arises due to conditions; i.e., to other dhammas, often including thinking, planning, and willing. That conditionality is a "power or authority". Dhammas are controlled by conditions, including volition. ------------ KH: Sure, each citta conditions the next citta to arise, but not in a selective way. If the next citta is going to be bavangha, for example, that is not because of a volition to have bavangha arise next. It is because the present citta is of a type that is naturally followed by bavangha. Cetana might urge the present citta to carry out its natural conditioning functions, but nothing more than that, surely? --------------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: It is because there are only dhammas that there can be no control over dhammas. >> > HCW: Untrue. The control, as pointed out above, is a matter of conditionality. ---------------------------------- KH: Obviously we have different understandings of conditionality. ------------------------------------------- >> KH: If there were something else - something other than dhammas - then there would be the potential for that "something else" to exercise control over dhammas. But there isn't, and so there is no control. >> > HCW: What you SHOULD be saying is that there are no agents of causality, no actors. -------------------------------------------- KH: Other than the namas themselves, of course! They all act; they all perform functions. It's just that they have no say in the process. And they don't want a say; they just do what they do disinterestedly. ------------------------------ <. . .> >> KH: I live in hope that one day you will become interested in the Dhamma *as it is found in the ancient Pali texts*. >> > HCW: Likewise. The Buddha, and subsequently commentators, pointed out that dhammas change while standing. How does that fit with your idea of dhammas as "realities"with fixed nature??? ---------------------------- KH: I am not sure what "change while standing" means, but I assume it means that conditioned dhammas both exist (stand) and bear the characteristic of anicca (change). I am sure it doesn't mean they mutate, or anything like that. -------------------------------------- >> HCW: The Buddha never used the term 'reality' to describe conditioned dhammas. He reserved that for nibbana. What he DID say of conditioned dhammas is: > Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; <. . .> > and also > /He who does not find core or substance <. . .> ---------------------------------------- KH: But as the commentaries explain, the Buddha was denying the existence of atta, not of conditioned dhammas. Apparently you like the commentaries sometimes, but not always. :-) Ken H #116331 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:23 pm Subject: Re: Hindrances. Was: concepts can lead to awakening ptaus1 Hi Alex, > > pt: Just checking, aren't hindrances (akusala cetasikas) supressed (not >arising) every time a kusala citta arises? > A: Right. And what will you do to make it arise? Did the Buddha tell us to be content with present skillful qualities? pt: I think I've explained already my understanding of how kusala is developed. In brief, when a kusala citta arises, say like respect or wishing someone well, and this is also accompanied or closely followed by understanding which appreciates the value of kusala - that in essence constitutes development of kusala. So once again, the arising of kusala citta and appreciation of it with understanding at or upon its arising is in fact developlent of kusala. In terms of conditions, I think the arising of kusala is due to previous arising of kusala, while the appreciation of it is thanks to hearing someone else talk about its value. As for the effort - effort which arises with a kusala citta is already kusala effort. And if the citta arises with right understanding, then its also right kusala effort, the strength of the effort depending on the depth of understanding I think. In other words, it is understanding which essentially conditions the simultaneous arising of right effort (of whatever strength). In other words, its not effort that causes the arising of understanding. I.e. not any sort of effort of whatever strength conditions the arising of understanding, but only when there's understanding, then there's right effort also. So we need to be honest with ourselves. When I attempt to emulate what the Buddha has said, i.e. sit down and not get up until my flesh has dried out, being relentless, etc, the effort involved is mostly akusala. In other words, I tend to put in a lot of effort, but there's no understanding at the time. So it's mostly akusala effort. So basically, I'm not a bodhisatta in his last life, who can actually sit down and remain like that until his flesh dries out and yet have mostly kusala cittas during the time. Nor do I seem to be the person to whom the sutta is addressed since I can be relentless in effort only mostly with akusala cittas. So, imo, trying to repeat what's stated in the suttas blindly - without understanding whether it's kusala or not at the time when one does it - that does not equate to seeing for oneself, being diligent, being heedful, following the Buddha, etc. Of course, please don't take all this to mean that I'm telling you not to do what the Buddha said to do, or that you should do the opposite of what the Buddha said, etc. The only practical outcome of what I'm saying is that perhaps next time you sit down and try to be relentless in effort or whatever else you decide to do or not do, perhaps then there'll be a recollection to consider whether there's kusala or akusala at the time. That's all. Best wishes pt > "Monks, I have known two qualities through experience: discontent with regard to skillful qualities[1] and unrelenting exertion. Relentlessly I exerted myself, [thinking,] 'Gladly would I let the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if I have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing my persistence.' From this heedfulness of mine was attained Awakening. From this heedfulness of mine was attained the unexcelled freedom from bondage. > > "You, too, monks, should relentlessly exert yourselves, [thinking,] 'Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence.' You, too, in no long time will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now. #116332 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What unwholesome quality is this? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, I'm glad to see you're continuing to raise good points in other threads. We were discussing temperaments/characters or caritas: --- On Fri, 1/7/11, truth_aerator wrote: >A:As you know there are caritas such as: >'Now as to the words, one that suits his temperament (28): there are six kinds of temperament, that is, greedy temperament, hating temperament, deluded temperament, faithful temperament, intelligent temperament, and speculative temperament." VsM III,74 >We all know that there are people with different typical qualities. Ex: some like to dress very fancy and do things in elegant style. Some like simple and basic stuff that gets the job done, nothing fancy. >Some have Lobha, some dosa, some other quality occur most of the time. .... S: Who doesn't have lobha arising most of the time? Yes, different tendencies, different objects of lobha, but lobha is lobha regardless and the cause of dukkha in all cases. It's useless to try and measure who has most or compare the objects of clinging. It's much more useful to directly understand lobha and the citta arising with lobha when it is apparent. .... >============================================================= >A:> It is true that all worldlings have some traits of lobha/dosa >/moha. Some people may have much more of one type vs another type >of defilement arise. Some people may be mostly lustful and for them >metta would be out of place. Some people may be hateful and asubha >for them would be counterproductive, etc. > .... >S: Is metta out of place for anyone? Surely metta is precious and >to be developed for all. >=============================================================== A:>Some types such as lustful, may not be suitable for lots of metta development. Why? Because their lust (a close quality) may increase to much, and they typically don't have as much problem with anger as dosa types. ... S: Being friendly and helpful to those around us, sharing what we have or what we know, being kind - very suitable whenever we're with people anytime at all. It's not a matter of thinking about whether or not to develop metta and trying to analyse our personality. It's a matter of developing metta by showing care and kindness and understanding the value of metta when it arises. It's true that often what we take for metta - such as kind concern for family members or close friends - may well be attachment. This doesn't mean that metta shouldn't be developed. It means that attachment and all other kinds of dhammas need to be understood as well. In the end, they are all just passing dhammas that don't belong to anyone and are not any personality at all. If we cling to the idea of we or others being 'a lustful type' or 'a dosa type', it just leads to more clinging, more attachment to the idea of beings and people rather than to more detachment and understanding of mental and physical phenomena, just 5 khandhas. The goal is to think less and be less obsessed with the idea of self, not more. Metta Sarah ====== #116333 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What unwholesome quality is this? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, I'm glad to see you're continuing to raise good points in other threads. We were discussing temperaments/characters or caritas: --- On Fri, 1/7/11, truth_aerator wrote: >A:As you know there are caritas such as: >'Now as to the words, one that suits his temperament (28): there are six kinds of temperament, that is, greedy temperament, hating temperament, deluded temperament, faithful temperament, intelligent temperament, and speculative temperament." VsM III,74 >We all know that there are people with different typical qualities. Ex: some like to dress very fancy and do things in elegant style. Some like simple and basic stuff that gets the job done, nothing fancy. >Some have Lobha, some dosa, some other quality occur most of the time. .... S: Who doesn't have lobha arising most of the time? Yes, different tendencies, different objects of lobha, but lobha is lobha regardless and the cause of dukkha in all cases. It's useless to try and measure who has most or compare the objects of clinging. It's much more useful to directly understand lobha and the citta arising with lobha when it is apparent. .... >============================================================= >A:> It is true that all worldlings have some traits of lobha/dosa >/moha. Some people may have much more of one type vs another type >of defilement arise. Some people may be mostly lustful and for them >metta would be out of place. Some people may be hateful and asubha >for them would be counterproductive, etc. > .... >S: Is metta out of place for anyone? Surely metta is precious and >to be developed for all. >=============================================================== A:>Some types such as lustful, may not be suitable for lots of metta development. Why? Because their lust (a close quality) may increase to much, and they typically don't have as much problem with anger as dosa types. ... S: Being friendly and helpful to those around us, sharing what we have or what we know, being kind - very suitable whenever we're with people anytime at all. It's not a matter of thinking about whether or not to develop metta and trying to analyse our personality. It's a matter of developing metta by showing care and kindness and understanding the value of metta when it arises. It's true that often what we take for metta - such as kind concern for family members or close friends - may well be attachment. This doesn't mean that metta shouldn't be developed. It means that attachment and all other kinds of dhammas need to be understood as well. In the end, they are all just passing dhammas that don't belong to anyone and are not any personality at all. If we cling to the idea of we or others being 'a lustful type' or 'a dosa type', it just leads to more clinging, more attachment to the idea of beings and people rather than to more detachment and understanding of mental and physical phenomena, just 5 khandhas. The goal is to think less and be less obsessed with the idea of self, not more. Metta Sarah ====== #116334 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna sarahprocter... Dear Vince, How's life in Spain? Back to the life of the sotapanna in our thread: --- On Sat, 2/7/11, Vince wrote: >I think what you says maybe can be accepted with the texts in our hands. However, this description of progress is isolated of life and it is not effectively real. Life is much more complex of what we can imagine. We can imagine somebody with a relatively fortunate life who reach the sotapanna state. And later, those tendencies to be angry against his selfish ex-couple, his boss, etc.. all these disappear quickly. Maybe that person goes to another country to become a monk in a safe environment without situation to break them. Or that person remains as a lay but he buys a nice house in the mountains with a central heating system, and that lay person don't break the precepts again. .... S: Yes, unless insight has been developed to the stage of sotapanna, we don't know what latent tendencies will condition strong akusala in various circumstances. However, it is the insight, not the 'central heating' or 'kind boss' that leads to the eradication of those akusala tendencies. .... V:>Also, we can imagine somebody with a relatively unfortunate life, who reach the sotapanna state. And later, the tendencies to be angry against the killers of his family or his torturers in a war, should decrease progressively. Maybe that person is poor and lives far of a Buddhist resource to get help or to become a monk. So maybe he will break some precept in some degree, despite the tendency to observe sila already is rooted. But he will be the only interpret available for that new sila tendency and what is able to refrain. ... S: No matter the circumstances, he won't knowingly break any precepts. ... V:> Also, note the sotapanna is not able to know a lot of things. He/She ignores if the stealing of a medicine to save the life of 1,10,100 people can be a right or a wrong action. Because there is ignorance about next rebirth for these beings and for his own. A sotapanna cannot know all that, although for sure he/she would break the precept if such situation appears. ... S: This would be impossible. They will never steal for any justification at all. They know the harm of those cittas involved in stealing - the taking from others, the deviousness and so on. They know that any justification is just thinking about concepts, so the idea of stealing in this scenario won't even be contemplated. Here is an extract from a sutta which Ven Samahita posted recently in #115945: >The Blessed Buddha once said: Beings are owners of their actions (kamma = karma), inheritors of their actions, are created by their actions, linked to their actions, their actions produce their destiny. Whatever actions they do; good as evil, the resulting reaction and effect will be only theirs! There is one who kills living beings, steals what belongs to others, commits adultery with others' partners; speaks lies, uses divisive and aggressive speech, prattles empty gossip; is covetous, envious, jealous, wicked-minded, & of evil views. Such one is creeping in all bodily, verbal, and mental actions. Hidden & secret are such one's actions, words, and thoughts, of ulterior and concealed motives. But I tell you: Whoever pursues hidden ways and objects will have to expect one of these two results: Either the torture of hell, or birth among the creeping animals. Thus is it with all rebirth of any being: They will be reborn according to their actions (kamma)... When reborn, they experience the exact effects of their actions.<...> >Source: Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikya AN 10:205 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm *** S: Note the comments about the one who breaks precepts, "hidden and secret are such one's actions, words, and thoughts, of ulterior and concealed motives." It then talks about the rebirth of such deeds in hell or animal realms. And yet we know there is no lower rebirth for the sotapanna. Therefore it is impossible that a sotapanna would perform such deeds. ... >V:This thread however has been useful to clarify more things about the relation between sila and wisdom. This is more complex of what I thought, with different views in both lay people and monks. ... S: Yes, it is complicated and the development of kusala sila cannot be separated from the development of wisdom. Your example of stealing above is a good example. Clinging to being a vegetarian is another one. Without an understanding of the importance of the present citta and cetasikas through the development of wisdom, one will always be confused about good and bad deeds conditioned by the mind, i.e sila. .... >V:thanks for the discussion, ... S: Thank you too. You've given lots of helpful examples and good quotes and I like the way that friends such as yourself keep questioning until really satisfied with the responses. Metta Sarah ======= #116335 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:43 pm Subject: The wise man is he who.., philofillet ....does the wholesome deed that is diificult to do and with difficulty abstains from the unwholesome deed that is easy to do. Hi all, can someone help me find the sutta that says something like that? Thanks Metta, Phil #116336 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The wise man is he who.., sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- On Wed, 20/7/11, philip wrote: >....does the wholesome deed that is diificult to do and with difficulty abstains from the unwholesome deed that is easy to do. >Hi all, can someone help me find the sutta that says something like that? ... S: How about Dhp 163? "Easy to do are things that are hard and not beneficial to oneself, but very, very difficult, indeed, to do is that which is beneficial and good." Narada transl. He also adds that "this verse was uttered by the Buddha when he heard that the Venerable Devadatta had decided to cause a schism in the Order." Metta Sarah ====== #116337 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The wise man is he who.., sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, Just adding the Pali: "sukaraani asaadhuuni attano ahitaani ca ya.m've hita~nca sadhu~nca ta.m ve paramadhukkara.m" --- On Wed, 20/7/11, sarah abbott wrote: >S: How about Dhp 163? "Easy to do are things that are hard and not beneficial to oneself, but very, very difficult, indeed, to do is that which is beneficial and good." >Narada transl. He also adds that "this verse was uttered by the Buddha when he heard that the Venerable Devadatta had decided to cause a schism in the Order." Metta Sarah ====== #116338 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:28 pm Subject: Re: The wise man is he who.., philofillet Thanks Sarah, that's the gist of it, for sure. But the one I'm thinking of was laid out with 4 permutations. The wholesome thing that is easy to do and the unwholesome thing that is easy to abstain from are not where wisdom is exercised, but the two forementioned situations...it sounds like it should be from the 4s from AN, but can't find it in my anthology. Metta, Phil p.s back to you and Nina on the weekend re my mother and some thoughts on that interesting thread, plus another thread I still want to get back to with Nina! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > --- On Wed, 20/7/11, philip wrote: > > >....does the wholesome deed that is diificult to do and with difficulty abstains from the unwholesome deed that is easy to do. > > >Hi all, can someone help me find the sutta that says something like that? > ... > S: How about Dhp 163? > > "Easy to do are things that are hard and not beneficial to oneself, but very, very difficult, indeed, to do is that which is beneficial and good." > > Narada transl. He also adds that "this verse was uttered by the Buddha when he heard that the Venerable Devadatta had decided to cause a schism in the Order." > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #116339 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The wise man is he who.., sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- On Wed, 20/7/11, philip wrote: > Thanks Sarah, that's the gist of it, for sure. But the one I'm thinking of was laid out with 4 permutations. The wholesome thing that is easy to do and the unwholesome thing that is easy to abstain from are not where wisdom is exercised, but the two forementioned situations...it sounds like it should be from the 4s from AN, but can't find it in my anthology. ... S: Hmm, someone will remember it. I can only think of the sutta in AN Bk of 4s about the 4 ways of progress, i.e. - difficult, with slow direct-knowledge - difficult, with quick direct-knowledge - easy, with slow direct-knowledge - easy, with quick direct-knowledge. Metta Sarah ===== #116340 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts can lead to awakening upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/20/2011 2:37:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, I almost forgot this one! ------------ <. . .> >> KH: "There is no power or authority that can be exercised over dhammas." How's that? :-) >> > HCW: That's good! And it's also false. Every dhamma arises due to conditions; i.e., to other dhammas, often including thinking, planning, and willing. That conditionality is a "power or authority". Dhammas are controlled by conditions, including volition. ------------ KH: Sure, each citta conditions the next citta to arise, but not in a selective way. ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: There often IS selection, carried out during processes of thought, planning, and willing. But there is no thinker, planner, or willer involved - no selector. That is just a manner of speaking, and not to be taken literally. ----------------------------------------------------- If the next citta is going to be bavangha, for example, that is not because of a volition to have bavangha arise next. It is because the present citta is of a type that is naturally followed by bavangha. ------------------------------------------------------ HCW: I have no particular reason to believe in bhavanga cittas. (And I couldn't care even less about them, existent or not. ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ Cetana might urge the present citta to carry out its natural conditioning functions, but nothing more than that, surely? ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: Surely?! LOL! --------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: It is because there are only dhammas that there can be no control over dhammas. >> > HCW: Untrue. The control, as pointed out above, is a matter of conditionality. ---------------------------------- KH: Obviously we have different understandings of conditionality. ------------------------------------------------------ HCW: I don't know what your understanding of conditionality is. My understanding is that "this being, that is" and "this arising, that arises" and "this ceasing, that ceases". ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- >> KH: If there were something else - something other than dhammas - then there would be the potential for that "something else" to exercise control over dhammas. But there isn't, and so there is no control. >> > HCW: What you SHOULD be saying is that there are no agents of causality, no actors. -------------------------------------------- KH: Other than the namas themselves, of course! They all act; they all perform functions. It's just that they have no say in the process. And they don't want a say; they just do what they do disinterestedly. ------------------------------ <. . .> >> KH: I live in hope that one day you will become interested in the Dhamma *as it is found in the ancient Pali texts*. >> > HCW: Likewise. The Buddha, and subsequently commentators, pointed out that dhammas change while standing. How does that fit with your idea of dhammas as "realities"with fixed nature??? ---------------------------- KH: I am not sure what "change while standing" means ----------------------------------------------- HCW: I guess we'll have to ck in with the Big Guy himself - it was his terminology. ----------------------------------------------- , but I assume it means that conditioned dhammas both exist (stand) and bear the characteristic of anicca (change). I am sure it doesn't mean they mutate, or anything like that. ---------------------------------------------- HCW: Oh, please!! It means that while yet in process, they change. --------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------- >> HCW: The Buddha never used the term 'reality' to describe conditioned dhammas. He reserved that for nibbana. What he DID say of conditioned dhammas is: > Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; <. . .> > and also > /He who does not find core or substance <. . .> ---------------------------------------- KH: But as the commentaries explain, the Buddha was denying the existence of atta, not of conditioned dhammas. Apparently you like the commentaries sometimes, but not always. :-) --------------------------------------------------- HCW: I, as you, have not directly read them. What I like are the suttas, which I consider to be, with rare exceptions, the word of the Buddha. The "changing while standing" business is found in the suttas. --------------------------------------------------- Ken H ================================= With metta, Howard Whatever is Conditioned, Changes /"Monks, these three are conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, change while remaining is discernible. "These are three conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned./ (From the Sankhata Sutta) #116341 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 20-jul-2011, om 1:23 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > KH: Thanks Lukas, I agree about the 'great opportunity' we have > been given. > > I also share your appreciation of reminders. For them we rely on > our Dhamma friends at DSG and elsewhere. But ultimately, of course, > in the reality of the present moment, our only friends (and > enemies) are the cetasikas that have been conditioned to arise. > > We should learn more about conditioned dhammas, and get to know who > our real friends are. ------- N: I am happy about this reminder. Well said. It also makes us less dependent on "people". ------ Nina. #116342 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:04 am Subject: In the Sangha's Presence! bhikkhu5 Friends: Contemplating the Unique Qualities of the Sangha: Perfectly training is this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's Noble disciples! Training the right way, the true way, the good way, the direct way! Therefore do these eight kinds of individuals, these four Noble pairs, deserve both gifts, sacrifice, offerings, hospitality & reverential salutation with joined palms, since this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's Noble disciples, is an unsurpassable and forever unsurpassed field of merit, in this world, for this world, to honour, support, respect and protect... The blessed Buddha said: As long as he recollects these special qualities of the Sangha in this way, defined as 'having entered on the good way', then: On that occasion his mind cannot be obsessed by greed, or obsessed by hate, or obsessed by delusion; his mind possess an unassailable integrity, when being inspired by this Noble Sangha (AN III 286). When a bhikkhu is devoted to this recollection of the Community, he is respectful and deferential towards the Community. He attains fullness of faith! He has much happiness and bliss. He conquers fear & dread. He is able to endure pain. He feels as if he were living in the Sangha's presence. When dwelling in the recollection of the Sangha's special qualities his body becomes indeed as worthy of veneration as an Uposatha house, where the Sangha has met. His mind inclines only towards the attainment of this Community's special qualities. Furthermore: When he encounters an opportunity for transgression, he has awareness of conscience and shame as vivid as if he were face to face with the elder Theras of the Noble Sangha. And if he can penetrate no higher, he is at least headed for a happy destiny. Vism I 221 Now when a man is truly wise, His constant task will surely be, This recollection of the Sangha, Blessed with such mighty potency! Vism I 218 EMERGENCE OF HARMONY Pleasant is the arising of a Buddha. Pleasant is the teaching of the Dhamma. Pleasant is peace and unity in the Sangha. Pleasant is the harmony of those united therein. Dhammapada Illustration 194 Background Story 194 MEDITATION-3 Ever are the true disciples of the Buddha well awake & quite aware. Constantly they meditate both day and night on the Sangha . Dhammapada Illustration 298 Background Story 296-301 <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #116343 From: "azita" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:32 am Subject: Re: Death gazita2002 hallo KenH and Nina, gotta agree with Nina here, always good to have reminders like this one Ken. So easy to forget that its all jst cittas, cetasikas and rupa, arising and falling. The ocean of concepts is very deep and very wide, easy to drown in it:( Patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ken H, > Op 20-jul-2011, om 1:23 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > > > KH: Thanks Lukas, I agree about the 'great opportunity' we have > > been given. > > > > I also share your appreciation of reminders. For them we rely on > > our Dhamma friends at DSG and elsewhere. But ultimately, of course, > > in the reality of the present moment, our only friends (and > > enemies) are the cetasikas that have been conditioned to arise. > > > > We should learn more about conditioned dhammas, and get to know who > > our real friends are. > ------- > N: I am happy about this reminder. Well said. It also makes us less > dependent on "people". > > ------ > Nina. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #116344 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:45 pm Subject: Re: The wise man is he who.., philofillet Hi Sarah and all My memory of it was a bit off but the teaching I wss looking for is in Mn 45 and MN 46. Thanks for the other ideas, Sarah. Also v. good! Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > ....does the wholesome deed that is diificult to do and with difficulty abstains from the unwholesome deed that is easy to do. > > Hi all, can someone help me find the sutta that says something like that? > > Thanks > > Metta, > Phil > #116345 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Six worlds. (part 1). epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > It was a Chinese wok restaurant in a parc in Scheveningen. Looking > out on the colourful flowers, and in between a sip of green tea and a > bite of the food I read to Lodewijk your letter. Without Dhamma the > celebration would be a bit empty. Pleasure and Dhamma. The hot soup > helped Lodewijk to have less backache. He has trouble walking these > days. > Lodewijk found your letter very sympathetetic: knows something, digs deep, seeking the truth. Very praiseworthy. > > We both understand what you were saying. The path of everyday life, > the path of the heart, as separate from the six worlds of paramattha > dhammas. Thanks for telling me about the nice setting, and thank you for bringing my message with you. I appreciate you and Lodewijk talking about it. > Lodewijk thought that it would not be easy to answer your > letter. I take some parts in order not to make it too long. > Op 16-jul-2011, om 5:32 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > I think that the dsg view is very natural towards life, but sees > > the Dhamma as "wholely other." For instance, in this view of the > > Dhamma it really doesn't make a big difference if one develops > > conventional charity or metta, althought they are kusala. But the > > Dhamma is only developed or realized in clear moments of individual > > citta that are seen accurately, not in good works, ordinary > > kindness, abstaining from improper activities, etc. In other words, > > I think you see the Dhamma itself as one of knowing only, of > > realization/insight only. I feel that the Dhamma functions both > > conventionally and in paramatha terms, not just the latter. > > > ------- > N: Lodewijk agrees and so do I. But I do not hear Kh Sujin saying: > this is conventional, this is paramatthic. Insight and life are > closely intertwined. I myself do not like very much the expression > conventional this or that. But the reason that this is mentioned: at > the moment of satipa.t.thaana, the object is not a situation or > person, but a dhamma appearing through one of the six doors. Just for > a moment, in between all the social activities (cooking, Alex), very > naturally. > I learnt this from her during the years I lived in Bgk, driving her > and her father around to restaurants, going around to temples where > we met people. Listening to her many good reminders within the > situation of life. I wrote: "My Time with Acharn Sujin." (to be found > in Zolag web) When crossing the street: elements on elements, > hardness pressing on hardness. Just very natural. We went to see her > sister in the train with her newborn baby: just a heap of dukkha, > this baby. See how natural, and it is Dhamma. I enjoy this description, and I appreciate the idea that Dhamma arises in the midst of everyday life. I like "hardness pressing on hardness" when crossing the street, and I agree that this understanding of what is taking place at a moment like that is a natural way for understanding to occur. That is nice to see it arising in that way. > ------- > > R: When one is kind, that kusala opens the heart; that leads to > > positive wholesome attributes. Even if one is not aware of those > > cittas, that is still part of the path. It is in that sense that I > > think the dsg view is somewhat confined to intellectual knowing, > > even in the case of direct knowing that may ultimately arise. It is > > seen as knowing and insight of the mind, not of the heart. > > > ------ > N: We understand and Lodewijk thinks this is well expressed. At first > sight the teaching on paramatthas may seem rather intellectual, at > first sight. > ------- > > > R: That is not to say that I experience a cold or remote quality > > from anyone here - I don't. But I think somehow the joy and > > relationship side of things that is more conventional, although it > > is enjoyed and expressed and is fine, is seen as separate from Dhamma. > > > ------- > N: Never seperate from the Dhamma. > > ---------- ... ...But it's not metta like a prolonged > > experience of love and appreciation. It is just momentary insight > > into a momentary phenomenon. I think that does sort of make the > > Dhamma quite cold, doesn't it? > > > ------ > N: No, not cold but it is very precise. That is a good distinction. Precision is important, but can be dangerous too. But knowledge also does have to be precise. I like the precision experienced as "hardness" crossing the street, rather than precision that is so much learned from words that it is hard to see it when it occurs. But I understand the distinction you are making. > We can be deluded by terms > like world peace. What is it? Does it exist? Lodewijk also thinks it > can be a hollow idea like the "millenium declaration". We may be > disappointed about the way things are going in politics, but we can > remember the real cause of failures: so long as there are lobha, dosa > and moha there will be wars. The Buddha taught very precisely the way > to overcome delusion, moha. A precise teaching is not cold. On the > contrary. Metta cannot be a prolonged experience, that is a delusion. > It will lead to great disappointment. That is interesting. Don't some develop the ability to have many moments of metta or jhana, or other qualities that are developed? I know it is not common... > But the beginning may seem quite prosaic, too analytical. It is difficult to get through the precise analytic view of reality to actual seeing. I will take a vacation from talking about meditation in this post, but I do trust knowledge that actually alters perception, rather than plants ideas in the mind that are hard to actualize. I appreciate what you are saying though... Best, Robert = = = = = = = = = #116346 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hindrances. Was: concepts can lead to awakening nilovg Dear Alex, Op 19-jul-2011, om 22:57 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina, all, > > >N: Without denying that through the development of jhaana the > >hindrances are suppressed, there are other ways. > > Of course. Access concentration (due to vipassanā) can do for some. > Some may need stronger concentration Jhāna, some lucky ones, lower > (access). > ------ N: When someone who develops vipassanaa but not jhaana, and he is about to attain enlightenment, he realizes whatever reality appears as either, impermanent, or dukkha or anattaa. That reality can even be lobha. During the process enlightenment is attained, then upacaara arises shortly before the magga-citta. The magga-citta experiences nibbaana with concentration of the strength equal to the first stage of jhaana. Upacaara is not necessary before this process starts. ------ > > A: As to awakening while reading. > > As you know, according to the commentaries, there are 4 types of > people. Two highest types (ugghaṭitaññu & vipañcitaññ") can > get awakened while listening to discourse, two lower types (neyyo, > padaparamo) cannot. Today it is said that only 2 lower types exist, > so practice beyond listening and considering is unfortunately > required. I wish it weren't. > > Listening and considering is required, sure. But for us, are > additional requirements which is actual practice. > ------ N: The practice, awareness of naama and ruupa appearing now, is conditioned by by listening and considering. Pariyatti, pa.tipatti, pativedha. ------- > A: We should not take exceptional cases applicable only to > exceptional people and make generalities out of them. What is > enough for ugghaṭitaññu & vipañcitaññ" is not enough for > neyyo. > -------- N: Quite so. > This brings me to your other post. I like your quote about > conventional teaching and teaching by way of ultimate truth. In Dutch we have a proverb that someone who understands well only needs half a word. I am thinking of your distinction between four groups of people. I think that the two lower types (neyyo, padaparamo) need more details, as Ken H also suggests. When they read suttas without any knowledge of the Abhidhamma, knowledge of what citta, cetasika and ruupa are, they may not get the full meaning. ------- A: The unfortunate thing is that some people dismiss the "conventional" teachings found in the suttas through the usage of the "ultimate". The trick is to read the "conventional" through the prism of "ultimate" so as to not find what "conventional" teaching has said because conventional is not found in the "ultimate". --------- N: I do not think anybody here dismisses the suttas. The whole of the Tipi.taka is excellent and a real treasure. That goes without saying. ------- Nina. #116347 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:12 pm Subject: Re: Conventional is not inferior. jonoabb Hi Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > > Dear Nina, KenH, all, > > > From the commentary of to the Anguttara Nikaya: > "Herein references to living beings, gods, Brahma, etc., are sammuti-kathā, whereas references to impermanence, suffering, egolessness, the aggregates of the empiric individuality, the spheres and elements of sense perception and mind-cognition, bases of mindfulness, right effort, etc., are paramattha-kathā. One who is capable of understanding > and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of generally accepted conventions, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on sammuti-kathā. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of ultimate categories, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on paramattha-kathā. To one who is capable of awakening to the truth through sammuti-kathā , the teaching is not presented on the basis of paramattha-kathā, and conversely, to one who is capable of awakening to the truth through paramattha-kathā, the teaching is not presented on the basis of sammuti-kathā. There is this simile on this matter: Just as a teacher of the three Vedas who is capable of explaining their meaning in different dialects might teach his pupils, adopting the particular dialect, which > each pupil understands, even so the Buddha preaches the doctrine adopting, according to the suitability of the occasion, either the sammuti- or the paramattha-kathā. It is by taking into consideration the ability of each individual to understand the Four Noble Truths, that the > Buddha presents his teaching, either by way of sammuti, or by way of paramattha, or by way of both. Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena. AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55 > http://kr.buddhism.org/~skb/down/papers/094.pdf > > > So here there is a plain statement that sammuti-kathā is not inferior to paramattha-kathā and can be used for liberation. > =============== J: I agree with the comments of KenH and Nina, and would like to add a brief comment of my own. As I see it, it's a matter of the same teaching being presented (= communicated) in different ways, according to the ability or propensity of the listener to grasp the truths being spoken of (see the reference to "understanding and penetrating to the truth"). The final sentence of the passage quoted reads as follows: "Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena". Here, "mental phenomena" and "physical phenomena" are presumably the translator's rendering of the Pali "nama dhammaa" and "rupa dhammaa". In other words, the content of the teaching (i.e., the understanding of dhammas) is the same in all cases, but the manner of explanation about dhammas (conventional speech/idiom vs. absolute speech/idiom) is different. Jon PS It might be difficult to verify the translation of the passage quoted, in that the author of the article in which the passage appears describes it as a "free translation of the relevant passages contained in three Pali commentaries", these being: 28 AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55; DA., Vol. I pp. 251-52; SA., Vol. II p.77. #116348 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] amoha, ditthi general doubts nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 16-jul-2011, om 7:45 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Does they both should be know? Shall they be know? > Amoha is panna, samma-ditthi, though micha-dittchi or ditthi is not > moha.?? -------- N: Miccha-di.t.thi, wrong view is different from ignorance. When you do not know realities, thus, when there is moha, and no wrong view, you do not have a particular misrepresentation of them. All realities the Buddha taught should be known and can eventually be known, but we do not know when. ----- > L:What is a condition for less dukkha? ------ N: More understanding of the reality appearing now, no matter it is happy feeling or unhappy feeling or neutral feeling, no matter it is kusala or akusala. -------- Nina. > #116349 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six worlds. (part 1). nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 21-jul-2011, om 6:52 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Quote N: Metta cannot be a prolonged experience, that is a delusion. > > It will lead to great disappointment. > > That is interesting. Don't some develop the ability to have many > moments of metta or jhana, or other qualities that are developed? I > know it is not common... ------- N: Yes, mettaa can be a meditation subject of jhaana and then it can last for many moments. The perosn who takes this as a meditation subject should know the characteristic of mettaa as it arises when he is with other people. As mentioned before, our friend Ivan heard about someone who developed mettaa as a meditation subject but that person was so annoyed when he was disturbed by someone else. Mettaa should be practised when one is with others. ------- Nina. #116350 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does actual moment of insight require thoughts? nilovg Dear Vince, Op 17-jul-2011, om 14:19 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > However, attachment and defilements arises because causes and > conditions, and > there is not any error in their arising. ------- N: When there are conditions they have to arise, nobody can stop them. ----- > V: This knowledge of the perfection of all > what happens at every moment causes detachment and eradication of > dukkha. ------- N: You mean by perfection: they have to arise, I think. Knowing conditions will lead first to detachment from the self, and only later on to eradication of all kinds of clinging, such as clinging to beautiful things. The anaagami has eradicated clinging to sense objects. Eradication of dukkha: even the arahat cannot change realities that are dukkha. Dukkha is inherent in conditioned realities, and it means: they are impermanent and not worth clinging to. -------- > > V: I miss a similar formulation in Theravada, although I'm > confident it should be > in some place. ------ N: I do not know more than I wrote above. ------ Nina. #116351 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:17 am Subject: Dhamma Discussion in Bhutan, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin: Nobody can condition seeing, it is conditioned by many factors. Without the previous moment there can never be seeing. When the object is pleasant who could condition seeing to experience that? It is past kusala kamma. When it is not the right time for kusala vipaaka that person cannot see a pleasant object. Many conditions are necessary for the arising of any reality in split seconds. Each reality is conditioned by more than one factor. Thus, one comes to understand the Buddha's wisdom and compassion to teach others to understand reality. Some people have accumulated confidence, saddhaa and pa~n~naa so that they see the value of the understanding of the teachings. Understanding can eliminate attachment to all objects which are experienced through the six doorways. Attachment arises all the time, so fast, without one knowing it. The idea of "I will do something to gain nibbaana" is useless. There is no "person" who experiences nibbaana. Only the highly developed pa~n~naa which can understand realities at any time will be able to experience nibbaana. Listening and considering the Dhamma can be a condition for direct awareness. Seeing at this moment is not the previous moment and when the next moment arises this moment is past again. It is precious to understand the depth of the teachings. When one understands the teachings one sees the Buddha. Otherwise one just sees the statue of the Buddha. The teachings are not the statue. Each word of the teachings is truth, such as the word dhamma. (conclusion) ****** Nina. #116352 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Discussion in Bhutan, no 7. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/21/2011 11:17:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, Khun Sujin: Nobody can condition seeing, it is conditioned by many factors. Without the previous moment there can never be seeing. When the object is pleasant who could condition seeing to experience that? It is past kusala kamma. When it is not the right time for kusala vipaaka that person cannot see a pleasant object. Many conditions are necessary for the arising of any reality in split seconds. Each reality is conditioned by more than one factor. Thus, one comes to understand the Buddha’s wisdom and compassion to teach others to understand reality. Some people have accumulated confidence, saddhaa and pa~n~naa so that they see the value of the understanding of the teachings. Understanding can eliminate attachment to all objects which are experienced through the six doorways. Attachment arises all the time, so fast, without one knowing it. The idea of “I will do something to gain nibbaana” is useless. There is no “person” who experiences nibbaana. Only the highly developed pa~n~naa which can understand realities at any time will be able to experience nibbaana. Listening and considering the Dhamma can be a condition for direct awareness. ---------------------------------------- HCW: My objection to this sort of talk is that it contradicts itself and is defeatist. Exactly along the same lines as "The idea of 'I will do something to gain nibbaana' is useless" is the following: Nobody can condition listening and considering the Dhamma! The idea "I will do something to listen and consider the Dhamma" is useless! So much for "listening and considering the Dhamma," Nina! If it, or anything else useful, for that matter, should happen, it is pure dumb luck! Intentional action (kamma), according to Khun Sujin and you, it seems, is a fiction. But I seem to recall the Buddha speaking of that as wrong view, Nina. ----------------------------------------- Seeing at this moment is not the previous moment and when the next moment arises this moment is past again. It is precious to understand the depth of the teachings. When one understands the teachings one sees the Buddha. Otherwise one just sees the statue of the Buddha. The teachings are not the statue. Each word of the teachings is truth, such as the word dhamma. (conclusion) ****** Nina. ================================= With metta, Howard P. S. The Buddha frequently urged people to be proactive and to put forth intentional effort - in short, "to TRY"!! ____________________________________________________ "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" " _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into _right view_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-ditthi/index.html) : This is one's right effort... "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into _right resolve_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-sankappo/index.htm\ l) : This is one's right effort... "One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into _right speech_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/index.html) : This is one's right effort... "One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into _right action_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-kammanto/index.htm\ l) : This is one's right effort... "One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter into _right livelihood_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-ajivo/index.html ) : This is one's right effort." " _MN 117_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html) #116353 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:55 am Subject: After Right views, what then? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all. Lets say that person has learned lots of right views and considered them a lot. What do you think one should do then? With metta, Alex P.S. Thank you all for replies to my previous posts, though I disagree with replies. #116354 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:29 am Subject: Re: Death kenhowardau Hi Nina and Azita (and all), Thanks for your comments on reminders and their importance in Dhamma study. At the risk of sounding insincere, I would also like to thank those DSG members who strongly disagree with the "present moment" aspect of the Dhamma. The Buddha said his Dhamma was difficult to see, and I thank those people for reminding me of that fact every day. I mean that in a sincere way, not in a sarcastic way. And I think the people I disagree with can say exactly the same thing. They can say that my failure to see the Dhamma the way they see it is a reminder of the difficulty the Buddha spoke of. It would be a warning sign for all of us if our Dhamma-discussion-group was all harmony and agreement. We would have to think, "Wait on, we must be missing something!" :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > > hallo KenH and Nina, > > gotta agree with Nina here, always good to have reminders like this one Ken. So easy to forget that its all jst cittas, cetasikas and rupa, arising and falling. The ocean of concepts is very deep and very wide, easy to drown in it:( #116355 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 22-jul-2011, om 3:29 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > At the risk of sounding insincere, I would also like to thank those > DSG members who strongly disagree with the "present moment" aspect > of the Dhamma. The Buddha said his Dhamma was difficult to see, and > I thank those people for reminding me of that fact every day. > > I mean that in a sincere way, not in a sarcastic way. ------- N: Yes, the Dhamma is deep and difficult to see, as is said in the suttas. Also disagreeing points of view are healthy, it makes one to consider more. Like: is it true that there is only one object at a time appearing through one doorway? To what extent do I realise this already? Very good to be reminded. ------ Nina. #116356 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:19 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Dhamma Discussion in Bhutan, no 7. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 21-jul-2011, om 17:57 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > My objection to this sort of talk is that it contradicts itself and is > defeatist. Exactly along the same lines as "The idea of 'I will do > something to gain nibbaana' is useless" is the following: Nobody > can condition > listening and considering the Dhamma! The idea "I will do something > to listen > and consider the Dhamma" is useless! > So much for "listening and considering the Dhamma," Nina! If it, or > anything else useful, for that matter, should happen, it is pure > dumb luck! > Intentional action (kamma), according to Khun Sujin and you, it > seems, is a > fiction. But I seem to recall the Buddha speaking of that as wrong > view, > --------- N: Intention or volition, cetanaa, is a cetasika, we both agree on that. We do not need to disgress on former discussions about this subject, do we? There is really no problem. Viriya, energy or effort, is needed as a factor of the eightfold Path. When we are downhearted as to progress, lack energy, are indolent, viriya can counteract this. In theory we know that there is no self, only conditioned dhammas performing their functions. Those who are not sotaapannas have not eradicated the idea of self, of self doing something. Unknowingly this idea may pop up time and again. One may say: everything is anattaa, but in practice? One needs reminders from a wise person, this is very precious. There may be an idea of self who is doing something to gain nibbaana, or to develop insight, or to listen to the Dhamma. Self listening and considering, even writing this Email, what about it? When the citta is humble and gentle, with sincerity, one can appreciate reminders such as those quoted above. Then one will be a person "easy to speak to". But when the citta is harsh, unwieldy, not pliable, not humble, one will not be "easy to speak to". Thus it all depends what the citta is like when reading such reminders. BTW your remarks are useful, helping me to consider how often the idea of self pops up unknowingly. ----- Nina. #116357 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] After Right views, what then? nilovg Dear Alex, It would be helpful if you could quote one sentence or so from the thread you are referring to. Now I am a bit lost, what was it again? Op 21-jul-2011, om 19:55 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > Lets say that person has learned lots of right views and considered > them a lot. What do you think one should do then? > ------ N: Ha, ha, nothing ;-)) Pa~n~naa will work its way, if one only let pa~n~naa work its way, instead of trying to interfere, or to hasten any development. ------- > > > A:P.S. Thank you all for replies to my previous posts, though I > disagree with replies. > ------- N: I hope a healthy disagreement with more considering, such as "how is the citta now?". ------- Nina. #116358 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:33 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Dhamma Discussion in Bhutan, no 7. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/22/2011 10:19:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Intention or volition, cetanaa, is a cetasika, we both agree on that. We do not need to disgress on former discussions about this subject, do we? There is really no problem. Viriya, energy or effort, is needed as a factor of the eightfold Path. When we are downhearted as to progress, lack energy, are indolent, viriya can counteract this. In theory we know that there is no self, only conditioned dhammas performing their functions. Those who are not sotaapannas have not eradicated the idea of self, of self doing something. Unknowingly this idea may pop up time and again. One may say: everything is anattaa, but in practice? One needs reminders from a wise person, this is very precious. There may be an idea of self who is doing something to gain nibbaana, or to develop insight, or to listen to the Dhamma. -------------------------------------------------- HCW: All that you say here about no self is quite true! I know this from direct introspection. Sense of self is very tenacious and is frequently subtle and is, for these reasons, and most unfortunately, very effective. It is like Mara in action. ------------------------------------------------ Self listening and considering, even writing this Email, what about it? ------------------------------------------------- HCW: Here's "what about it," ;-), Nina: A number of folks here apply this truth of no self, including you at times, to meditating and guarding the senses, and only such as these, and, in particular, not to listening to, considering, and discussing the Dhamma. That specialized application is what I find objectionable. Studying and thinking about the Dhamma is in no way less an intentional activity than is meditating. Moreover, the Buddha urged intentional practices of various sorts, most assuredly including meditation, and he did so at least as much as he urged Dhamma study. -------------------------------------------------- When the citta is humble and gentle, with sincerity, one can appreciate reminders such as those quoted above. Then one will be a person "easy to speak to". But when the citta is harsh, unwieldy, not pliable, not humble, one will not be "easy to speak to". Thus it all depends what the citta is like when reading such reminders. --------------------------------------------------- HCW: Reminders of no-self and other essential matters are wonderful and are very much appreciated. I certainly appreciate them! Repeated reminders by others and by oneself serve as aids that come forth in the mind when triggered by events, provided that one has developed the habit of introspection. It is also true that is easy and pleasant to speak with folks who are calm and accepting. But speaking forcefully is not in itself an indication of an aggressive mind. Here was my motivation: The folks on DSG who meditate, and who use introspection to examine the mind, and who attempt to be attentive to their bodily sensations and emotional reactions to them (and so on), do so because we find these actions to be very useful, and we understand the doing of them to have been explicitly taught by the Buddha. After repeatedly, even relentlessly, and for a long time, being told by a number of folks here that this is NOT Dhamma, and that we don't understand the Dhamma, we eventually feel the need, or at least I do, to speak up and say "no" to this. When this speaking up occurs, it is not a matter of mentality that is harsh, unwieldy, not pliable, not humble. The measure of a person shouldn't be only the ease of speaking with them, but also the honesty of their speech. For us to not speak up and object to criticisms of what we consider to be practice urged again and again by the Buddha would be dishonest on our part. There is no intention here to fight, but only to resist long-term criticism of our Dhamma practice. And this speaking up is not only for our own sake, but for the sake of others and for the sake of the Dhamma. It would be wrong if I allowed my great respect, appreciation, and real caring for you, Nina, to silence myself. That would be dishonest. Sometimes silence is not golden. :-) Please don't confuse my "speaking up" with angry confrontation, Nina. I wouldn't hurt you for the world, but I think it important to be frank and honest with you. Otherwise, I wouldn't be acting properly or showing you due respect. ------------------------------------------------------ BTW your remarks are useful, helping me to consider how often the idea of self pops up unknowingly. ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: Sometimes the most surprising things can be useful to us! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- ----- Nina. =============================== With much metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #116359 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] After Right views, what then? truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >A: Lets say that person has learned lots of right views and >considered >them a lot. What do you think one should do then? > ------ > N: Ha, ha, nothing ;-)) > Pa~n~naa will work its way, if one only let pa~n~naa work its way, > instead of trying to interfere, or to hasten any development. >====================== What about 7 other factors of Noble Eightfold, EIGHTfold path? Buddha has never stated to always be passive when it comes to development of factors. Development of new skills is never passive or unintentional. Passivity sounds more like Gosala's (ajivika?) teaching of samsara being like ball unwinding that happens without personal effort. Person may know fully well the drawbacks of lets say alcohol and still crave to drink it. Craving is NOT eliminated by mere rationalization, dhamma is atakkavacaro (beyond sphere of reasoning). It is not an intellectual problem that is solved through the intellect. Same with Dhamma. Craving is not lack of PhD . It is wrong type of behavior that was reinforced for so long in samsara, that requires strong re-training now. The stronger the negative conditioning, the stronger the retraining required. I know that things are anicca, dukkha, anatta and that one should not crave for anything - and yet experience a lot of lobha & dosa. Maybe because the mind needs more retraining. Old habits must be replaced by new ones (lobha with alobha. Dosa with adosa. moha with amoha.) This is where meditation, IMHO, comes in. Unfortunately, at least with me, rationalization seems to go only to a certain level and not further. I am not the type belonging to highest two types of people, who can develop the path merely through listening and understanding. And according to commentaries, we don't have such types now. So all the advice of the path being merely listening & considering will not work. Considering how many hindrances we have, it is possible to misinterpret the information we read in Books and get further from the path. So maybe we should not add petrol to the fire, and use the fire-extinguisher (meditation that removes 5 hindrances) instead. Unless one has removed obstructions that hinder wisdom (AN 5.51), even studying can be going the wrong way. The kilesas can twist the Dhamma to serve them. Or at least block the vision of the truth. Insight needs clean glassess for truth to be in-sight. Hindrances is like dirt and imperfections of the lenses. Meditation "cleans them". I am not very happy when I read something that almost says "you can't do right because things are anatta". This seems to be misusing the Dhamma. Anatta is a tool to let go off, not to cling to unwholesome tendencies. IMHO, With best wishes, Alex #116360 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:06 am Subject: Lodewijk's words of thanksgiving. nilovg Dear friends, For our evening reading we used my "Alone with Dhamma", about our pilgrimage in India, 2005. Since this part were his words of thanksgiving, it was his turn to read: While we were in Sarnath, the place of the Buddha's first sermon, we were given the opportunity to pay respect to the Buddha's relics which are kept in a ten meter deep cellar. A monk had to descend into it to fetch them. Since Lodewijk just had his eightieth birthday, Acharn Sujin had asked us to carry the relics in turn towards the altar, and Lodewijk also carried them back to the shrine at the end of the ceremony. Afterwards we offered Sangha Dna to the monks. Lodewijk spoke the following words of thanksgiving to them: Venerable Monks, On behalf of this group of Thai and foreign pilgrims under the spiritual leadership of Acharn Sujin Borharnwanaket and the practical leadership of Mr. Suwat Chansuvithiyanant , I wish to thank you for giving us this opportunity to perform Sangha Dana and to pay you our deep respect. Your community of monks reminds us of the vital importance of the Sangha, the third of the Triple Gem, now and in the future. Last week, my wife Nina and I celebrated my eightieth birthday by paying respect to the place Kuru in New Delhi, where the Lord Buddha preached the Satipahna Sutta. Nina recited the text to me and I was, again, struck by the power of this Sutta and its significance for our daily life. This morning, I received the most precious birthday present one can wish for: the honour to carry the relics of the Lord Buddha. The two most important and happiest events in my life were marrying Nina and our encounter with Buddhism through the hands of Acharn Sujin who, ever since, has guided us on the Path and who, during this tour, tirelessly explained the Dhamma to us, wherever and whenever possible. Looking back on my life, I feel distressed by the amount of accumulated akusala committed in the past. I feel distressed by dukkha, by the burden of the five Khandhas of grasping, so well explained in the teachings: rpa khandha, vedan khandha (feeling), sa khandha (remembrance), sakhra khandha (mental formations) and via khandha. I feel distressed by the destructive power of the five hindrances, so forcefully put forth in the teachings, which are: desire of sense pleasures, aversion, restlessness and worry, sloth and torpor and doubt. And yet, I understand at least in theory, that regret of the past makes no sense, that there is no self in the past, and that it is understanding of the present moment that counts. And, in fact, I have every reason to be grateful. Every day, I am encouraged and inspired by Nina's tireless efforts to understand the Dhamma and to help others to understand it. I was inspired by the courage of Nina's father who recently passed away at the age of hundred and four and who, despite his incapacities of body and mind, never gave up and always looked towards the future. And above all, who should be distressed when he hears the voice of the Lord Buddha: "Abandon evil, O monks. One can abandon evil, O monks. If it were impossible to abandon evil, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be done, therefore, I say: Abandon evil!", and similarly on cultivating the good. On our long journey towards wisdom, we need the support and the inspiration of the Sangha and therefore, I urge you, venerable monks, to persevere in your task of preserving and propagating the teachings. We thank you for giving us this opportunity to perform Sangha Dna and as a token of our thanks, I wish to present to you, Venerable Head Monk, Acharn Sujin's book, "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas", translated from Thai by Nina and recently published in Bangkok. It is a masterful, all encompassing treatise on the Dhamma and I hope that it will be of use to your community. ------- Nina. #116361 From: "Christine" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:25 am Subject: Re: Lodewijk's words of thanksgiving. christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > For our evening reading we used my "Alone with Dhamma", about our > pilgrimage in India, 2005. Since this part were his words of > thanksgiving, it was his turn to read: > > While we were in Sarnath, the place of the Buddha's first sermon, we > were given the opportunity to pay respect to the Buddha's relics > which are kept in a ten meter deep cellar. A monk had to descend into > it to fetch them. Since Lodewijk just had his eightieth birthday, > Acharn Sujin had asked us to carry the relics in turn towards the > altar, and Lodewijk also carried them back to the shrine at the end > of the ceremony. > Afterwards we offered Sangha Dna to the monks. Lodewijk spoke the > following words of thanksgiving to them: > ........................ Dear Nina, Thank you! This brought back very fond memories. with metta Chris #116362 From: han tun Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Lodewijk's words of thanksgiving. hantun1 Dear Lodewijk and Nina, Thank you very much for giving us again Lodewijk's words of thanksgiving. It was beautifully written and very inspiring! I have copied it in my Notebook and I will keep it, treasure it, and read it again and again. I also wish the best of health and happiness of both of you. with metta and deepest respect, Han #116363 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:28 am Subject: Re: six worlds (part 2) epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > > > > > Even though detachment is the goal, does detachment mean that the > > immeasurables, and the refined happiness of jhana and such other > > experiences that are released and joyful along the way, are somehow > > not seen as Dhamma, but only the mechanical insight that arises for > > this moment or that moment is seen as true Dhamma and significant > > for the real path. > > > -------- > N: The question now is: what is the Path. The Path is the development > of right understanding of whatever appears now. Also joyful > experiences are dhammas and can be known as such. Insight is not a > mechanical thing. It comes about through listening, considering, > intellectual understanding. It arises because of its own conditions, > has nothing to do with "us". Of course understanding dhammas has nothing to do with a self, and the arising of dhammas has nothing to do with a self. But I wonder if Buddha ever says explicitly that enlightenment is *only* a matter of what I would call "knowing understanding." Once again it has to do with the head and the heart, and what is necessary to fulfill the path. Obviously the clear knowing of what is real is absolutely necessary, but is it sufficient to fulfill the path, and is it the whole story? It seems to me that often in the conversations on dsg the *only* thing that is emphasized is Right Knowing. It has been explicitly stated that Right Knowing is the leader and the most important of the 8NP, but that doesn't mean that it runs the gamut of the path all by itself. Is knowing dhammas directly and understanding conditionality, leading to detachment, the entire story? It seems to me that there are moments when letting go occurs, when detachment occurs, because conditions allow the attachment to dhammas to be released directly, not by understanding the mechanics, but by realizing directly ["with the heart"] that the object in question is not satisfying and is not part of self. That kind of realization does not take place through an explanatory understanding, but by direct release. I don't think that intuitive and direct emotional release of clinging and craving is emphasize enough. It may even be more important because one can understand but still cling. But when one directly releases, that is real letting go, which the Buddha talked about as the ultimate and final step. So it may be that the "intellectual" pariyatti approach, the "dry insight" approach, is the right way to reach letting go for some, and for others it may be by another kind of intuitive contemplation, or by seeing internal states and realizing that they are anatta through satipatthana that is direct, not intellectually-based, that letting go occurs. There are many Buddhists who are not especially book-based who are able to practice this kind of mindfulness that leads to direct release. And the meditative practice of satipatthana is practiced this way, seeing where the attachment lies and this leading to release on an internal level. There is a Yeats verse that I like that relates to this, although it is not a precise fit to Buddhist Dhamma. He speaks of this kind of release that a person can reach and says he "...knows that when all words are said And a man is fighting mad Something drops from eyes long blind He completes his partial mind, For a moment stands at ease, Laughs aloud, his heart at peace." There is a kind of knowing that comes from a breakthrough in the turbulence of the emotional self, and I think it is very interesting that Yeats describes this as "for a moment stands at ease." I think he understands the momentary nature of such realization/release. > Some people think: Dhamma takes the spice out of life, you cannot > enjoy life. Some people for this reason would not like to become a > sotaapanna. Kh Sujin said: do not worry, there is still enough lobha > when one is a sotaapanna. Clinging to pleasant things is not forbidden. > Some people think that you, as a layfollower, have to live like a > monk or an arahat, but this is unnatural. > --------- > > R: We have to be reminded that if we are doing yoga or surfing or > > meeting a wise teacher, that none of this is the path itself. It is > > all conventional unless it is seen for its individual moments, > > which all have the same status. So if one were to have a moment of > > insight listening to a teacher, or feel a moment of freedom while > > surfing, or whatever, it has to fit into a specific category and be > > understood as a path phenomenon or it isn't really a part of the > > path. There's an unnatural separation, I do think, between the > > kusala and akusala moments of real life that are experienced, and > > what is seen as the actual "path itself," a special category that > > is cut off from regular experiences. > > > ------ > N: Lodewijk thinks, this is difficult to answer, but he says that you > go to the heart of the matter. > I see the Path as moments of understanding the present dhamma that > presents itself, but this is not separated from daily life. It is not > a matter of fitting things into a special category, but it all is a > matter of understanding our daily life with its kusala moments, > akusala moments, sufferings, joyful moments. Without the Dhamma all > such moments just pass without they being known as conditioned > dhammas. How empty, how meaningless life would be. > -------- Well I agree that Dhamma brings a much deeper level of meaning, the real meaning of things, to the events of life. It is important to have both. I know it is general to say that it is of "the head" and "the heart." But I think it suggests that there is a kind of balance between the inner emotional "human" self and the cold light of discernment that one may ultimately need to cut through samsara and delusion. And I think you acknowledge this nicely with what you say about the niceness of going out and doing things and appreciating daily life, and at the same time appreciating the view that comes from the Dhamma, and the moments of understanding. > > R: Well I would say there are two aspects of this. I am not sure, > > by the way, that "just seeing" in the "seen" means that the six > > worlds ar all completely separate and don't really interact, or > > never arise together. I know this is just "basic" info that you all > > accept as completely true, but it does dissect experience into a > > totally unrecognizable object. Nobody actually experiences color > > separate from movement as a car goes by, or hardness separate from > > color when they touch and see a table at the same time. > > > These are indeed unnatural categorizations of experience. Is it the > way experience actually takes place? It is taken on faith that this > is a logical and sensible philosophy and that it is known as true > because it was given by arahants, but personally I don't see this > kind of very specific talk in the suttas of the Buddha, including > Bahiya. I see Bahiya as being about experience without > proliferations, not about experience being one sense-door at a time > and no mixture. > ------- > N: Even when beginning to learn we can find out that touching is not > seeing, that thinking is not seeing, that the experience of hardness > is different from the experience of colour. We are learning this and > we have to learn in order to follow the Path. I agree that it is important to look at the individual senses and understand the sense-base and that seeing and hearing are different experiences. I understand that some separation that allows you to analyze what is really happening from moment to moment is important. On the other hand, I think it's a mistake to sort of dismiss, or not acknowledge, the moments when these senses work together to create specific kinds of experiences. I don't think that hearing a melody is a conceptual experience, as opposed to hearing pure sound, one separate moment at a time. I think that is a mistake. We always have influences from one moment to the next and this is true of sensory experience too. I think it's important to understand both the momentary experience of an isolated sense-experience, and also the way in which human experiences combine these moments to create sense and continuity. If we break down the moments and then put them back together again, we understand more about how existence works than if we just break it down and separate it completely from what we actually experience as humans. As you have said, even the arahant "takes turns" between tuning his understanding to absolute reality and experiencing - with detachment - the human experiences that we all share. So it's not a matter of denying or cutting off the continuity of moments, but of understanding both - how the moments stand as pure sound or vibration or movement or color, and how they combine and why they create the sense they do. Then it is possible I think to go back to human experience with more detachment, but still not be in a sort of denial of experience. I guess in parinibbana one leaves all experience behind for ever, but until that point there is a balance of living and understanding. Even Buddha talked about his aches and pains when he got old, and he never said it was wrong to acknowledge this level of reality. See this sutta: > > The Buddha spoke about seeing, hearing and all the experiences > through the different doorways. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (IV, > Salyatanavagga, First Fifty, Ch 3, on the all, 25 abandoning) that > the Buddha said: > > I will teach you a teaching, brethren, for the abandoning of the all > by fully knowing, by comprehending it. Do you listen to it. And what, > brethren is that teaching? > The eye, brethren, must be abandoned by fully knowing, by > comprehending it. Objects... eye-consciousness... eye-contact... that > weal or woe or neutral state... that also must be abandoned by fully > knowing, by comprehending it. > The tongue... savours and the rest... that weal or woe... which > arises owing to mind-contact,- that also must be abandoned by fully > knowing it, by comprehending it. > ------- > > R: > > If you accept that this is true experience - single-citta and > > single-world only - then there is no such thing indeed as music, > > person, painting or relationship, no cars, no mountains, etc. And > > it fits with the goal of detachment, because it means that all the > > things we enjoy are artificially constructed and should just be > > dismissed as meaningless. Maybe that is true. > > > ------ > N: Lodewijk thinks that it must be possible to clarify these things. > For years and years we both play music together, two piano music or > harpsichord and recorder (flute). There is sound and there is > attachment to sound, or hardness when moving fingers. Not that there > is awareness often, no, very seldom. But it is possible and it does > not interfere with the music. Just as thinking of something else does > not interfere. Well I like that - I think it's possible to "enjoy the music" and "enjoy the understanding" of the qualities that are actually experienced in the moment. Maybe while we are still in samsara it is good to have this coordination - this "harmony" -[pardon the pun] between these two "melodies" accompanying each other. > ------- > > R: But there is another way to look at Buddhism, which is to be > > able to look at a mountain with detachment, but also with joy and > > to see that the mountain is there and the perception is there, but > > there is no self there, and that makes it even more joyful. It is > > "anatta of the heart." > > > ------ > N: Lodewijk thinks this is well said. I know what you mean. I see the > joy as lobha, but this does not mean: don't do it. It arises, it is > conditioned. You say: "the mountain is there and the perception is > there, but there is no self there". When we think that something > stays or exists, there is clinging to "atta". Taking something > outside for "self", that is also possible. But again: not forbidden. > Perception arises and falls away with the citta, it cannot last. > Better to know than not to know. But this does not have to thwart > your enjoyment. Maybe there is inherent attachment in seeing a mountain as "a mountain" and lasting, but perhaps one can have detachment from this attachment and understand the fact that the mountain-experience is an attached experience. I guess there is attachment in that, but there can maybe also be understanding, as you said about the music. > ------ > > R: And it is possible to experience your wife or husband and have a > > moment where you feel that there is a lot of joyful appreciation of > > them without detachment I meant to say "without attachment" in this sentence - guess that was an interesting slip-up on my part! ... and with the self out of the way, and that > > is a kind of opening of the heart and mind too. It is not by > > deconstructing reality into little perceptual bits, but by seeing > > in conventional reality something more than the self. That is what > > I see as the path in everyday life, not just waiting for a moment > > of insight into "seeing object" or "hardness" to arise and just to > > see it perfectly. To me that's only a small part of the path. > > > > ---------- > > > N: Appreciation with mettaa is deeper, more meaningful than just > having attachment. In the latter case one thinks of oneself again, > not of the other person. I agree. > Deconstructing reality into little perceptual bits, moment of insight into "seeing object" or "hardness" to arise and > just to see it perfectly>. This is not the development of > understanding. It is not deconstructing reality, not waiting for the > arising of insight. That would be unnatural, forced. It does not work > that way. Good to hear, and of course what you say must be right. It arises itself, but we spend so much time analyzing, that it is somewhat unnatural. > When you speak about insight I feel a lot still has to be explained. > But I do appreciate your mail and understand your objections. Well I appreciate sharing these ideas with you, and your sharing a part of your life and thought about this. Thanks to you and Lodewijk for your consideration. I feel like I was almost at the Chinese restaurant with the wok with you, but I am still hungry! :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #116364 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:58 pm Subject: Re: Conventional is not inferior. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > The final sentence of the passage quoted reads as follows: "Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena". > ... > PS It might be difficult to verify the translation of the passage quoted, in that the author of the article in which the passage appears describes it as a "free translation of the relevant passages contained in three Pali commentaries", these being: 28 AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55; DA., Vol. I pp. 251-52; SA., Vol. II p.77. I am especially interested in the "free translation" that resulted in the ending phrase "the way to Immortality," since Immortality is the opposite of the doctrine of impermanence of self, and would be a form of heretical Eternalism, would it not? If that is the case, one has to wonder whether the translator, or perhaps the original writer, understands the difference between nibbana as cessation and the false idea of an eternal spiritual self. Best, Robert E. #116365 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Six worlds. (part 1). epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 21-jul-2011, om 6:52 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > Quote N: Metta cannot be a prolonged experience, that is a delusion. > > > It will lead to great disappointment. > > > > That is interesting. Don't some develop the ability to have many > > moments of metta or jhana, or other qualities that are developed? I > > know it is not common... > ------- > N: Yes, mettaa can be a meditation subject of jhaana and then it can > last for many moments. > The person who takes this as a meditation subject should know the > characteristic of mettaa as it arises when he is with other people. > As mentioned before, our friend Ivan heard about someone who > developed mettaa as a meditation subject but that person was so > annoyed when he was disturbed by someone else. I hope you don't mind if I think that is quite funny. It reminds me of a modern "enlightened Buddhist master" who I heard about when I was in Nepal, who went into a panic the first time he was given a ride in a plane. I guess that "other people" is a good test for whether metta has been well developed... > Mettaa should be > practised when one is with others. Well that is a very interesting note. Thank you. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #116366 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:08 pm Subject: Re: Death epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Nina and Azita (and all), > > Thanks for your comments on reminders and their importance in Dhamma study. > > At the risk of sounding insincere, I would also like to thank those DSG members who strongly disagree with the "present moment" aspect of the Dhamma. Nobody disagrees with the "present moment" aspect of the Dhamma. What we disagree with is the interpretation that is presented of what the "present moment" is or contains, how it operates and exactly how conditionality does or does not affect the moment. EVERYONE agrees that the Dhamma exists and pertains to this very moment, as there is no other. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - #116367 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] After Right views, what then? epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > It would be helpful if you could quote one sentence or so from the > thread you are referring to. Now I am a bit lost, what was it again? > Op 21-jul-2011, om 19:55 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > > Lets say that person has learned lots of right views and considered > > them a lot. What do you think one should do then? > > > ------ > N: Ha, ha, nothing ;-)) :-) I like that answer. It's very good. > Pa~n~naa will work its way, if one only let pa~n~naa work its way, > instead of trying to interfere, or to hasten any development. Thanks Nina, that is nicely put. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #116368 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:32 am Subject: The 7 Links to Awakening! bhikkhu5 Friends: Freeing from Sense-Addiction are the Links to Awakening! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, I do not see even one other single thing that, when developed and cultivated, leads to the elimination of the things that bind, so effectively & quickly as these Seven Links to Awakening! What seven? 1: The Awareness Link to Awakening. 2: The Investigation Link to Awakening. 3: The Energy Link to Awakening. 4: The Joy Link to Awakening. 5: The Tranquillity to Awakening. 6: The Concentration Link to Awakening. 7: The Equanimity Link to Awakening. How, Bhikkhus, are Seven Links to Awakening developed and refined so that they lead to the giving up & letting go of those things that bind? Here, when a Bhikkhu develops these seven links to awakening, joined with and dependent upon seclusion, disillusion, and ceasing, culminating in release, then these seven links to awakening, are refined and matured in a way, so that they lead to the abandoning of the things that bind, grip, addict and obsess beings! And what, Bhikkhus, are the things that bind, grip, addict and obsess all beings? The eye, ear, nose, mouth, body, & mind are things that addict & obsess beings! Form, sound, smell, taste, touch, & idea are things that addict & obsess beings! Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, and thinking bind, grip, addict and obsess beings! These are called the things that bind, ensnares, entrap, enslaves, enchain and consume beings... <....> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. Book [V: 88-9] section 46: The Links. 29: One Thing... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #116369 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:59 pm Subject: Re: Conventional is not inferior. jonoabb Hi Robert E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > The final sentence of the passage quoted reads as follows: "Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena". > > > ... > > > PS It might be difficult to verify the translation of the passage quoted, in that the author of the article in which the passage appears describes it as a "free translation of the relevant passages contained in three Pali commentaries", these being: 28 AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55; DA., Vol. I pp. 251-52; SA., Vol. II p.77. > > [RE:] I am especially interested in the "free translation" that resulted in the ending phrase "the way to Immortality," since Immortality is the opposite of the doctrine of impermanence of self, and would be a form of heretical Eternalism, would it not? > =============== J: Agree with your sentiment re "Immortality" in the context of the Dhamma. My guess is as follows: One of the epithets used by the Buddha to describe Nibbana was "the deathless", and "immortality" is the author's 'free translation' of that expression. > =============== > If that is the case, one has to wonder whether the translator, or perhaps the original writer, understands the difference between nibbana as cessation and the false idea of an eternal spiritual self. > =============== J: The culprit here would be the translator, I believe. Jon PS See the slightly ambiguous entry for 'amata' in NBD: *************** amata (Sanskrit amrta; mr to die; = Gr. ambrosia): 'Deathlessness' according to popular belief also the gods' drink conferring immortality, is a name for Nibbaana, the final liberation from the wheel of rebirths, and therefore also from the ever-repeated deaths . *************** http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/amata.htm #116370 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:41 pm Subject: Re: Dry insight in sutta/tipitaka sarahprocter... Dear Alex, I only just got round to looking at your helpful message #115694. When I printed it out, all the diacritics appeared as 'squiggles', so it was very dificult to read, but going back to the screen they are OK there. A couple of comments" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > "Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment (adhipaññādhammavipassanāya), but not internal tranquillity of awareness(ajjhattaṃ cetosamathassa). " > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.094.than.html > > So one can gain adhipaññādhammavipassanāya without ajjhattaṃ cetosamathassa. And in AN 3.89 it seems to suggest that destruction of fetters is due to training (sikkhā) in adhipaññā. .... S: Yes, it is adhipa~n~naa (higher wisdom) which is perfected at the stage of arahatship, as you point out, until then it is training in adhipa~n~naa through the development of insight. ... > > So if adhipaññādhammavipassanāya and adhipaññā are identical in meaning, then it suggests that one can just do it for Arahatship and without having attained ajjhattaṃ cetosamathassa before. > AN3.88, AN3.89 and AN 4.94 if taken together, imply the existence of dry arahatship. .... S: Yes, but not a matter of "one can just do it" - pa~n~naa develops, no one does anything. ... > > Training in higher wisdom (adhipaññāsikkhā) implies seeing 4NT as it is (which is often completed and culminates at Arahatship). > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.088.than.html > > "And what is the training in heightened discernment (adhipaññāsikkhā)? There is the case where a monk, through the ending of the mental fermentations, enters & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & made them manifest for himself right in the here & now. This is called the training in heightened discernment. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.089.than.html > > In Puggalapaññattipāḷi it says that paññāvimutto Arhat does not have eight liberations (8 jhānas?) but through paññā he is liberated from the taints. .... 8 liberations (vimokkha) are the jhanas and the 8th is nirodha samapatti http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vimokkha.htm ... > Katamo ca puggalo paññāvimutto? Idhekacco puggalo na heva kho aṭṭha vimokkhe kāyena phusitvā viharati paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkh"ṇā honti. Ayaṃ vuccati puggalo paññāvimutto. PTS 73 > > > > So this seems to justify dry insight in Tipitaka. .... S: Yes. Good quotes. Metta Sarah ======= #116371 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:44 pm Subject: Re: The wise man is he who.., sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > My memory of it was a bit off but the teaching I wss looking for is in Mn 45 and MN 46. Thanks for the other ideas, Sarah. Also v. good! > > ....does the wholesome deed that is diificult to do and with difficulty abstains from the unwholesome deed that is easy to do. > > ..... S: Thx for letting me know. If you have time, perhaps you could kindly quote the lines from those two suttas that you had in mind (or give a brief summary). Metta Sarah ==== #116372 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: wisdom and doing sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- On Tue, 19/7/11, Robert E wrote: >> S: I wouldn't say "there is a static dormant structure within anicca". It is dhammas which are anicca and no dhamma is static in anyway. The dormant tendencies are also changing all the time. At this moment of attachment or wisdom, the tendency of one or other 'accumulates' and the habit is affected in future. R:That is good, helpful to see that the dormant ingredients [per your analogy below] are "simmering" the whole time and in a state of accumulation or flux of their own... ..... S: Yes..... the good and bad tendencies are simmering away! ... >Well I appreciate the analogy, but it's made me quite hungry, imagining all the soup ingredients. So I suppose there's a dormant tendency for me to taste the nice-sounding soup, but since the conditions haven't all been met, [eg, I've got intention but not proximity,] it will remain an active, but unrealized tendency [eg, dormant,] til the soup-tasting conditions come to fruition [a strange word when referring to vegetables...] I will wait [im]patiently... .... S: To make it more precise and less of an analogy, the main condition for the tasting is past kamma. This kamma will determine whether the tasting occurs and what kind of taste or flavour it experiences. We may all sit down to enjoy the same soup, but according to kamma, the experiences will be different, the (bodily) feeling will be different. And then, those 'simmering' good and bad latent tendencies will condition the reaction to that tasting of the flavour. Sometimes there's attachment, sometimes aversion, often followed by all kids of ideas and stories about the soup. Sometimes, occasionally, there may be a little understanding that it's just taste that's experienced! No soup, no person tasting it at all! Somehow we got from dominoes to soup-tasting! I think it's because it always seems to be time for soup tasting when I write to you! Perhaps you'd better stick to billiards with Pt:-) Metta Sarah ====== #116373 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:01 pm Subject: Kusala intention (was, Re: The clansman who is a beginner ...) jonoabb Hi Robert E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: But what I don't see is how it could be obvious. Could you give an example of what you have in mind by an instance of kamma and vipaka that would be obvious. And is this something you feel you've been able to confirm by experience? > > [RE:] On a conventional level, there are many examples of something that you put into motion coming back to bite you. I'm sure you can think of some on this level. > =============== Well yes, in a conventional sense. But it's not really possible to say with any certainty that the 'bite' is attributable to the preceding deed to which it is (conventionally) seen to be linked. And for how many people does the number and degree of 'bites' experienced in a lifetime match the number and seriousness of their misdeeds (as perceived by us)? Item heard on the news: The UN World Food Programme has declared Somalia a famine area. In recent weeks and months, thousands of people, mainly children have died from hunger or malnutrition. I wonder if those thousands of children who went through the agony of hunger and malnutrition and then early death were experiencing the results of deeds performed in this lifetime (I would assume not). Likewise for all the victims of famine, drought, fires, floods (inc tsunamis), war (10's of millions during WWII), epidemics/pandemics, etc. Jon #116374 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:59 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses jonoabb Hi Robert E (116106) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > I am seeing this pattern in several commentaries where the commentator says "this really means X" but presents no logical bridge between the content of the sutta and "X." This is also true in the simile of the flood, where the commentary says that "not striving" and "not standing still" is really about the middle way. Well what about what the Buddha actually says about striving and standing still, is it is possible that there is a point to be derived directly from what he says, without benefit of a totally different point being made by the commentary? I don't revere the commentators in the same way as the Buddha, and someone would have to give me a damned good reason to substitute their intellectual understanding for the words of the Buddha, a reason which does not seem to be presented in most cases. To me the "close" interpretation of the "flood" sutta is that is not to define the "middle way" but to define "right effort." After all, the sutta is about how to get through the "flood" of samsara successfully, and Buddha says not to strive and not to stand still. That is about effort in particular, not the middle way in general. So we should perhaps contemplate what the Buddha is actually saying about the type of effort that is correct for the path. The commentary takes this practical and specific teaching of the Buddha and turns it into an intellectual exegesis about Dhamma in general - the "middle way." I don't respect this kind of lifting of the authority of the Buddha and applying it to the agenda of the Buddhist intellectuals who came after him. > =============== J: I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing the commentaries in general terms. I suggest instead discussing specific passages. Shall we look at the simile of crossing the flood again? SN 1.1 Ogha-tarana Sutta: Crossing over the Flood ******************** "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."[1] "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?" "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." ******************** http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.001.than.html#fn-1 translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu In a footnote to his translation of this sutta (n. 2 at p.341 of CDB), Bhikkhu Bodhi makes reference to the commentary ("Spk") as follows: **************************** The word "flood" (ogha) is used metaphorically, but here with technical overtones, to designate a doctrinal set of four floods, so called, according to Spk, "because they keep things submerged within the round of existence and do not allow them to rise up to higher states and Nibbaana." The four (with definitions from Spk) are: (i) the flood of sensuality (kaamogha) = desire and lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure (agreeable forms, sounds, etc.); (ii) the flood of existence (bhavogha) = desire and lust for form-sphere existence and formless-sphere existence and attachment to jhaana; (iii) the flood of views (dit.t.hogha) = the sixty-two views; and (iv) the flood of ignorance (avijjogha) = lack of knowledge regarding the Four Noble Truths. **************************** Do you have any problem with the commentary as represented here so far? Jon #116375 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lodewijk's words of thanksgiving. nilovg Dear Han and Christine, I am glad you appreciated Lodewijk's words. When I am reading to him all my talks pertaining to India, it all comes back very clearly. Going around the holy sites was very inspiring to both of us. Nina. Op 22-jul-2011, om 22:50 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Thank you very much for giving us again Lodewijk's words of > thanksgiving. #116376 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:10 am Subject: Re: six worlds (part 2) truth_aerator Hello RobertE, Nina, all. If I may enter your good discussion. As I understand it, craving is NOT an theoretical problem. What is not theoretical problem is not solved through intellectual knowledge alone. A good example is addiction to, lets say, drinking. It is not an intellectual problem. It is an addiction that needs additional type of solution. Person can fully know the drawbacks of it, but is still addicted to alcohol. So addiction is not due to not knowing the dangers. Certainly a person needs to know certain ABC's of Dhamma, but beyond that, extra knowledge may be relatively useless, if not dangerous. Today (as opposed to 5th BC pre-literate agrarian society of India) it seems that we have too much information rather then not enough of it. And all the talks in the suttas about knowing Dhamma in detail doesn't need to mistakenly apply to modern time's information overload. Essence of Dhamma can be briefly summarized in one sentence: "'All things are unworthy of attachment.' " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.080.than.html And 4 lines of Dhamma can qualify one as "one widely learnt". So a pile of books approach is not relevant. "If a monk understands the meaning and the text of Dhamma- even if it be but a stanza of four lines-and be set on living in accordance with the dhamma (dhammanudhammappatipanno), he may be called "one widely learnt (bahussuto), who knows Dhamma by heart.". A ii,177 AN4.186 Approach "And how, bhikkhus, is one a knowledge-master? When a bhikkhu understands as they really are the origin, the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to the six bases for contact, such a bhikkhu is a knowledge-master."-SN35.103(10)Uddaka Remember the parable of being shot with an arrow? It is possible to misunderstand and misuse the Dhamma, just as it is possible to misuse and misunderstand "meditation" or anything else. Wrong views are not only due to wrong information. Wrong views are also conditioned by clinging and hindrances (which are irrational). So even when it comes to Right Views, they are not always got merely by hearing & considering. Hindrances need to be sufficiently suppressed, and something tells me that all the "awakened while listening" suttas are only tip of an iceberg when it comes to what those people did. They may have done weeks, months, years, lifetimes of meditative development so that at the point of meeting the Buddha (an extraordinary event requiring extraordinary merit) they were so pure due to suppressed hindrances and merit from previous meditations, that they could reach certain stage by hearing only. Also it could have been a matter of seeing Buddha *in person* that was of crucial importance, a luxury that we do not have today and is irrelevant for us now. Suttas are very limited in amount that they can mention and so often it is the "tip of an iceberg", such as meeting the Buddha and hearing his lecture, that is actually recorded in the suttas. Meditation that a worldling did, might not have been that important as the message of the Buddha Himself. Mindfulness of the Body is often said to be requirement for wisdom and even the first path. It is impossible to reach anything worthwhile (insight, wisdom, paths) without kayagatasati. "600. Bhikkhus, they that do not partake mindfulness of the body,[1] do not partake deathlessness and they that partake mindfulness of the body, partake deathlessness." "580-583. Bhikkhus, when mindfulness of the body is developed and made much, it conduces to realizing the fruits of the entry into the stream of the Teaching, fruits of returning once, fruits of not returning, and fruits of worthiness" http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara1/1-ekanipata/\ 016-Ekadhammapali-e.html So last two chapters of AN book of 1st (19 & 20) refute the possibility of insight, paths & fruits without kayagatasati. So we must not take short suttas that simply cannot mention everything as meaning that there can be path with missing parts. >============================================================= Householder, what is the attainment of wisdom (pannasampada)? Householder, the mind of one abiding, overcome by covetousness and greed, does what should not be done and fails to do what should be done and whatever obtainable pleasantness flees from him. Householder, the mind of one abiding, overcome by hatefulness, does what should not be done and fails to do what should be done and whatever obtainable pleasantness flees from him. Householder, the mind of one abiding, overcome by sloth and torpor, does what should not be done and fails to do what should be done and whatever obtainable pleasantness flees from him. Householder, the mind of one abiding, overcome by restlessness and worry does what should not be done and fails to do what should be done and whatever obtainable pleasantness flees from him. Householder, the mind of one abiding, overcome by doubts, does what should not be done and fails to do what should be done and whatever obtainable pleasantness flees from him. Householder, the noble disciple knowing that covetousness and greed is a minor defilement of the mind dispels it. Knowing that hatefulness is a minor defilement of the mind dispels it. Knowing that sloth and torpor is a minor defilement of the mind dispels it. Knowing that restlessness and worry is a minor defilement of the mind dispels it. Knowing that doubts are minor defilements of the mind dispel them. When the noble disciple knowing that covetousness and greed, hatefulness, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry and doubts are minor defilements of the mind and dispel them it is said that the noble disciple has attained great spread out wisdom which sees the respective field of conscioussness. This is the attainment of wisdom. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanip\ ata/007-pattakammavaggo-e.html >================================================================ Wisdom = action . It is not merely theoretical sophistication. With best wishes, Alex #116377 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:18 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana Sutta - Reflection on corpses truth_aerator Hello Jon, Robert E: >Ogha-tarana Sutta: Crossing over the Flood >"I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying >in >place."[1] > ******************** And in this poetic phrase in SN1.1 we need to put it into context of entire teaching. The SN1.1 May have been paradoxical on a purpose "This discourse opens the Samyutta Nikaya with a paradox. The Commentary informs us that the Buddha teaches the devata in terms of the paradox in order to subdue her pride. To give this paradox some context, you might want to read other passages from the Canon that discuss right effort."" ""Monks, I have known two qualities through experience: discontent with regard to skillful qualities[1] and unrelenting exertion. Relentlessly I exerted myself, [thinking,] 'Gladly would I let the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if I have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing my persistence.' From this heedfulness of mine was attained Awakening. From this heedfulness of mine was attained the unexcelled freedom from bondage." [Alex: And it doesn't apply just to Him] "You, too, monks, should relentlessly exert yourselves, [thinking,] 'Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence.' You, too, in no long time will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.005.than.html With best wishes, Alex #116378 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:49 am Subject: Re: Death truth_aerator Hello RobertE, KenH, all, >RE: Nobody disagrees with the "present moment" aspect of the Dhamma. >What >we disagree with is the interpretation that is presented of >what >the >"present moment" is or contains, how it operates and >exactly how >conditionality does or does not affect the moment. >EVERYONE agrees >that the Dhamma exists and pertains to this very >moment, as there is >no other. >============================================================= Right. Since present moment is all there is, everything happens in the present. Past no longer exists, so its conditioning force on the present is not 100%. What happens now is what matters. ""Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html Please note: Current actions is not caused by what was done in the past. This is the point. Some may say that the Buddha rejects only previous kamma being the cause of current kamma, but since Kamma is intention, what the Buddha rejects is that previous intention causes current intentional actions. Past unintentional actions, as I understand it, do not cause present intentional actions. When it comes to development, sure we may have to deal with a lot of result of previous akusala actions. We may not always have perfect results now, but the positive development now will build up its force little by little, so eventually unprompted cittas will arise and do their job at maggaphala (rather than many current unprompted negative cittas now that hinder development and happiness). With best wishes, Alex #116380 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:21 am Subject: Re: Death kenhowardau Hi Robert E, When I said "the present-moment aspect of the Dhamma" I was referring to more than the fact that there was only the present moment. I was referring to the fact that the entire Dhamma applied to the present moment. That includes instructions that would seem, from a conventional point of view, to require a period of time. ------------- > RE: Nobody disagrees with the "present moment" aspect of the Dhamma. What we disagree with is the interpretation that is presented of what the "present moment" is or contains, how it operates and exactly how conditionality does or does not affect the moment. EVERYONE agrees that the Dhamma exists and pertains to this very moment, as there is no other. ------------- KH: Yes, everyone who thinks about it will have to agree there is only the present moment. But only the Dhamma explains that moment's contents, their cause and cessation, and the path leading to their cessation. In studying those things, we should never forget that they *all* pertain to the present moment. That's where people go wrong. Ken H #116381 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 7/23/2011 4:50:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello RobertE, KenH, all, >RE: Nobody disagrees with the "present moment" aspect of the Dhamma. >What >we disagree with is the interpretation that is presented of >what >the >"present moment" is or contains, how it operates and >exactly how >conditionality does or does not affect the moment. >EVERYONE agrees >that the Dhamma exists and pertains to this very >moment, as there is >no other. >============================================================= Right. Since present moment is all there is, everything happens in the present. Past no longer exists, so its conditioning force on the present is not 100%. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: I don't follow that at all. First of all, there never was nor is there any "conditioning force". What arises now does so exactly because all the requisite conditions for it have occurred. That's the whole story: this-that conditionality. Whatever willing that occurs now, for example, does so because and only because of the preconditions for it that were met. The current willing is not random at all. It happens now because it must, and had the preconditions for it not have occurred, it would not happen now. ----------------------------------------------- What happens now is what matters. --------------------------------------------- HCW: Actually, no, it's not ALL that matters. What will happen in the future is only partly due to what is happening now and not solely due to it, for among the conditions yielding future effects are events that occurred long, long before what is happening now. And there is no reason to assume that past events pass along, state after state, their "influence" or "conditioning force". When they occurred, right then and there, they were conditions for future effects, with those future results not occurring until *all* the requisite conditions are met. So, lots of things "matter," some present and some past. --------------------------------------------- ""Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html --------------------------------------------------- HCW: "What was done in the past" means BY ONESELF. This does not deny conditionality. It denies one's own intention and intentional actions being the whole story. It is not an argument for free (or unconditioned, or random) will. --------------------------------------------------- Please note: Current actions is not caused by what was done in the past. This is the point. -------------------------------------------------- HCW: The point is that one's current actions and experiences are not completely determined by one's past actions. One's kamma is critically important but not all-important. That is the point. ------------------------------------------------ Some may say that the Buddha rejects only previous kamma being the cause of current kamma, but since Kamma is intention, what the Buddha rejects is that previous intention causes current intentional actions. ---------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, that is correct. One's prior intentions are not the sole conditions for one's current intentions. But that does NOT say that current intentions are unconditioned. ------------------------------------------- Past unintentional actions, as I understand it, do not cause present intentional actions. ---------------------------------------- HCW: That seems to be a non sequitur to me. In any case, past unintentional actions may well be among the conditions for one's present intentional actions. (One may quite unintentionally fall out of bed, and then intentionally get back in bed! ;-) ---------------------------------------- When it comes to development, sure we may have to deal with a lot of result of previous akusala actions. We may not always have perfect results now, but the positive development now will build up its force little by little, so eventually unprompted cittas ---------------------------------------- HCW (interrupting): What do you mean by 'unprompted'? It does not mean "random" or "unconditioned". ---------------------------------------- will arise and do their job at maggaphala (rather than many current unprompted negative cittas now that hinder development and happiness). With best wishes, Alex =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #116382 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:52 am Subject: Serene is Equanimity... bhikkhu5 Friends: Serene Equanimity promotes imperturbable Peace: Equanimity just looks on and observes, while calmly settled in composed neutrality. Equanimity is characterized as promoting the aspect of impartiality among beings. Its function is to see the equality of all beings. It is manifested as the quieting of both resentment and approval. Its proximate cause is seeing and comprehending the ownership and efficacy of kamma thus: All beings are owners of their actions, born, created and conditioned by the accumulated effect of their past intentions! Whose, if not theirs, is the choice by which they have become happy, or unhappy, or will break free from suffering, or have fallen down from their past good state? Equanimity succeeds, when it makes both resentment and approval subside, and it fails, when it instead produces a bored, indifferent, & careless state of negligence! Vism I 318 Comments: Non-involved and even Equanimity is a subtle form of happiness... By stabilization it perfects and consummates all the other six links to awakening: Awareness, Investigation, Energy, Joy and Concentration. Equanimity is the proximate cause for knowing and seeing it, as it really is. Equanimity quenches any upset agitation! When seeing and noting: 'All this is constructed, conditioned, coarse and transient! But this state of serene equanimity is indeed exquisitely peaceful...', then instantly ceases any arisen agreeable or nasty feeling, when Equanimity takes its stance <....> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #116383 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:30 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Dhamma Discussion in Bhutan, no 7. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 22-jul-2011, om 18:33 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > N: Self listening and considering, even writing this Email, > what about it? > ------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Here's "what about it," ;-), Nina: A number of folks here apply this > truth of no self, including you at times, to meditating and > guarding the > senses, and only such as these, and, in particular, not to > listening to, > considering, and discussing the Dhamma. That specialized > application is what I > find objectionable. Studying and thinking about the Dhamma is in no > way less > an intentional activity than is meditating. Moreover, the Buddha urged > intentional practices of various sorts, most assuredly including > meditation, > and he did so at least as much as he urged Dhamma study. > -------------------------------------------------- > N: I did not quite get the first sentences you wrote as to > specialized application. Then you write about intention, but this > is no problem. Of course there is cetanaa, it arises with each > citta. As to guarding the senses, indriya samvara siila, this > pertains to vipassanaa in daily life. Many suttas about this > subject. An object presents itself through one of the six doors, > and if there is awareness of it, that doorway is guarded. > ---------- > > Quote N: When the citta is humble and gentle, with sincerity, one can > appreciate reminders such as those quoted above. Then one will be a > person "easy to speak to". But when the citta is harsh, unwieldy, not > pliable, not humble, one will not be "easy to speak to". Thus it all > depends what the citta is like when reading such reminders. > --------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Reminders of no-self and other essential matters are wonderful and are > very much appreciated. I certainly appreciate them! Repeated > reminders by > others and by oneself serve as aids that come forth in the mind when > triggered by events, provided that one has developed the habit of > introspection. > ------ N: Introspection, I know you are very observant, from former posts you wrote. And then: one step further and this is difficult: not merely noticing dosa, but to realize dosa as a conditioned dhamma. Otherwise there is still 'my dosa'. But first the first stages of insight have to be realized: seeing naama as naama and ruupa as ruupa. Otherwise it is impossible to understand dosa as a mere conditioned mental phenomenon. ------- > > H: It is also true that is easy and pleasant to speak with folks > who are > calm and accepting. But speaking forcefully is not in itself an > indication > of an aggressive mind. > ------- N: This has a different meaning in the texts. Easy to speak to: one listens with ready ear, also translated as docile, but in English this has a peiorative meaning. One is openminded to the teachings. Difficult to speak to: this is the opposite. But I know what you mean. ------- > > H: Here was my motivation: The folks on DSG who meditate, and who use > introspection to examine the mind, and who attempt to be attentive > to their > bodily sensations and emotional reactions to them (and so on), do > so because > we find these actions to be very useful, and we understand the > doing of > them to have been explicitly taught by the Buddha. .... > There is no intention here to fight, .... > Please don't confuse my "speaking up" with angry confrontation, Nina. > I wouldn't hurt you for the world, but I think it important to be > frank and > honest with you. Otherwise, I wouldn't be acting properly or > showing you > due respect. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: I appreciate it when people speak sincerely and frankly about their feelings. Really no problem at all. As to all these discussions about meditation: of course samatha is a high degree of kusala. But sammaa samaadhi, right concentration, can be miccha-samaadhi, wrong concentration, without people realizing this. I think you know too that true calm that is kusala is not conditioned by mere sitting and concentrating on one object. I mention this because some people may not know this. It depends on the individual. They may misunderstand when they hear Kh Sujin saying: Sati and pa~n~naa are needed to know this and to develop more calm that is kusala. I personally find it helpful to know more details about the cetasikas that accompany kusala citta and akusala citta, but again, appreciating this depends on the individual. That is why I mentioned the citta that is humble and gentle, with sincerity... I am thinking of the six pairs of sobhana cetasikas that accompany each kusala citta. Calm, lightness, mallleability, wieldiness, proficiency and rectitude. They all assist sobhana citta and its accompanying cetasikas so that citta and cetasikas are alert, healthy and efficient in performing kusala. They are classified as six pairs, one pertaining to citta and one pertaining to the mental body, cetasikas. They oppose sluggishness as to kusala, they make citta react quickly as to the opportunity to develop kusala. The citta that is akusala has the opposite qualities, it is harsh and unwieldy, crooked, heavy, lazy. Considering these qualities I find helpful to understand more the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta. -------- Nina. #116384 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: six worlds (part 2) nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 23-jul-2011, om 2:28 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > Of course understanding dhammas has nothing to do with a self, and > the arising of dhammas has nothing to do with a self. But I wonder > if Buddha ever says explicitly that enlightenment is *only* a > matter of what I would call "knowing understanding." .... Is > knowing dhammas directly and understanding conditionality, leading > to detachment, the entire story? It seems to me that there are > moments when letting go occurs, when detachment occurs, because > conditions allow the attachment to dhammas to be released directly, > not by understanding the mechanics, but by realizing directly > ["with the heart"] that the object in question is not satisfying > and is not part of self. That kind of realization does not take > place through an explanatory understanding, but by direct release. > ---------- N: As I understand the texts, this can only come about when going through all the stages of insight. These are not mentioned merely in the Visuddhimagga, but also in the "Path of Discrimination", the Pa.tisambhidaamagga", in the beginning of the Treatise on Knowledge". In the "Kindred Sayings", IV, 18, Suttas about the "All", the details of these stages are not given, but 26, Comprehension, pertains to the three pari~n~naas, as is explained in the co to this sutta, see translation Ven. Bodhi. These three comprehensions actually contain the stages of insight in due order. Quote from Buddhist Dictionary, Ven. Nyanatiloka: pari: 'full understanding', full comprehension. There are 3 kinds of mundane f.u. (lokiya-p.), namely: full understanding of the known (ta-p.), f.u. as investigating (trana-p.), and f.u. as overcoming (pahna-p.) In Vis.M. XX, 3 it is said: "Full understanding of the known is the knowledge consisting in the discernment of the specific characteristics of such and such phenomena, as: 'Corporeality has the characteristic of being oppressed; feeling has the characteristic of being felt, etc.' "Full understanding by investigating is that insight-wisdom (vipassan-pa; s. vipassan), which has the 3 general characteristics (impermanence, suffering, not-self) as its objects, and which arises when attributing a general characteristic to (physical and mental) phenomena, as for instance: 'Corporeality is impermanent, feeling is impermanent, etc.' "Full understanding by overcorning is that insight-wisdom which has the above mentioned general characteristics as its objects, and arises after overcoming the idea of permanence, etc." - (App.). ------ Thus, there cannot be pahaana, release or relinquishment, before fully understanding and investigating realities. I believe that it is valuable to go along with the texts. ------- > > R: So it may be that the "intellectual" pariyatti approach, the > "dry insight" approach, is the right way to reach letting go for > some, and for others it may be by another kind of intuitive > contemplation, or by seeing internal states and realizing that they > are anatta through satipatthana that is direct, not intellectually- > based, that letting go occurs. > ------- N: Again, I prefer to follow the texts of the Tipi.taka and the ancient commentaries. Other ways such as suggested by Yeats seem to me not so precise. -------- > > > N: Even when beginning to learn we can find out that touching is not > > seeing, that thinking is not seeing, that the experience of hardness > > is different from the experience of colour. We are learning this and > > we have to learn in order to follow the Path. > > I agree that it is important to look at the individual senses and > understand the sense-base and that seeing and hearing are different > experiences. I understand that some separation that allows you to > analyze what is really happening from moment to moment is > important. On the other hand, I think it's a mistake to sort of > dismiss, or not acknowledge, the moments when these senses work > together to create specific kinds of experiences. I don't think > that hearing a melody is a conceptual experience, as opposed to > hearing pure sound, one separate moment at a time.... > ------- N: Of course there is thinking of an association of different experiences and meanings, such as a melody, or a story. We do that all the time, no denial. Thinking, though, is different from seeing, arising because of different conditions. We can think either with kusala or with akusala. Whereas seeing is only vipaaka, result of past kamma. It is useful to understand different moments in order to cling less to the self. ------- > > > R: As you have said, even the arahant "takes turns" between tuning > his understanding to absolute reality and experiencing - with > detachment - the human experiences that we all share. Even Buddha > talked about his aches and pains when he got old, and he never said > it was wrong to acknowledge this level of reality. > ------ N: Correct. But he did not think with aversion about pain. ----- > > > R: Maybe there is inherent attachment in seeing a mountain as "a > mountain" and lasting, but perhaps one can have detachment from > this attachment and understand the fact that the mountain- > experience is an attached experience. I guess there is attachment > in that, but there can maybe also be understanding, as you said > about the music. > ------ N: Well said. When understanding attachment as such, as a dhamma, there is already a degree of detachment from attachment. ------- Nina. #116385 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:13 pm Subject: Re: The wise man is he who.., philofillet Hi Sarah Thanks, but I will let it drop there. I just needed help to track it down, no need to discuss it at this time. Metta, Phil > ..... > S: Thx for letting me know. If you have time, perhaps you could kindly quote the lines from those two suttas that you had in mind (or give a brief summary). > > Metta > > Sarah > ==== > #116386 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta is creating future realities philofillet Hello Nina (p.s to Sarah) I wanted to get back to this post of yours from a couple of weeks ago, which I appreciated very much. I will snip in one passage from your post to me in the "death" thread. Well, I'll put it right away. N: This must have been a traumatic experience, that dementia can go that far. How good you helped taking care of her, but how difficult it must have been for you. I appreciate your kusala. Ph: This interests me, because it suggests that even if akusala cittas are behind a conventional act, such as taking care of one's parents, it can still be called "kusala." Usually students of A.S are very quick to question whether an act is truly rooted in kusala cittas. So why do you say you appreciate my kusala? In fact, the cittas at work were consistently akusala - resentment, embarassment, irritation, longing for escape. There were a few moments when my mother behaved in a way that was more acceptable to lobha-rooted cittas, and at those times there was a semblance of generous friendly cittas on my part, but no, they were rooted in lobha, I felt friendly because she was behaving like a nice old lady for awhile. But most of the time was good acting on my part. Indeed, the acting was good, and my mother extremely demented, so the performance was carried off. She was able to believe that her loving son was there. And so can we say that some deeds are kusala by their conventional form rather than the cittas behind them? Don't worry, I'm not being self-hateful here. There was observation of what was going on, and thanks to the Dhamma I didn't beat myself up about it then, nor now, I didn't identify with being "a son who is too selfish to care lovingly for his sick mother", which would be a depressing thing to identify with. I could let go of that self-identification, quickly, thanks to Dhamma. > > Ph: In Canada I was aware of using thinking about paramattha > > dhammas to relieve my stress and fear. It was attachment, I feel. > --------- > N: But understanding and attachment can alternate very quickly. The > fact that you were thinking of paramattha dhammas, not only of > situations and persons shows that there is also understanding. If you > had not listened and studied you would not even know that there are > paramattha dhammas. There are paramattha dhammas, such as seeing and > thinking for everybody, but they are often not known as paramattha > dhammas. Ph: Yes, this is true. I was very grateful for the Dhamma. True that I was escaping an unpleasant situation by thinking about Dhamma. As we know, worldlings have only one way to escape painful feeling, and that is by seeking pleasant feeling, with lobha. In my opinion, that was what was going on then, lobha for Dhamma, and in my opinion that goes on a lot, when one thinks about Dhamma when troubled by bad worldly conditions. And of course that's ok, so much lobha, only a few openings in the dome of lobha. As long as we know there is lobha, and don't take our musings about Dhamma as something pure, the True Path. I think the "reminders" that get shared a lot at DSG are probably food for lobha. Also possibly food for moments of detached reflection, but probably very few moments like that! > ------- > > Ph: Well, I have gone off topic. The point was that mindfulness is > > the best way to take care of the future... > ------ > N: I appreciate your confidence. As Sarah says, and I like this, > Dhamma is the best medicine. We may think about this with attachment, > but there are also moments of understanding that Dhamma is the truth. > Better to consider the truth than going on worrying, such as about > health issues of dear people. Ph: That's true, lots of attachment for Dhamma, but could there possibly be a better object for attachment? And of course, as you say, occasionally occcasion for detachment. Very occasionally... Metta, Phil p.s Sarah, thnk you also for your comments in the "death" thread. I think I will drop it there. #116387 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:35 pm Subject: Pt's Galaxy met some books for the first time! sarahprocter... Dear Pt & Friends, We had a sociable weekend. My niece had been staying with us and we had a little discussion on the Dhamma. She was reading a book of the Dalai Lama's and we discussed a little about this moment and the teaching of anatta. We also met up with some of Jon's family in Sydney yesterday and I also had a brief dhamma discussion with his nephew. He felt he was too busy as a doctor and a new father to study Buddhism at the moment, so again I chatted a little about present realities, the thinking as the reality when one feels stressed worrying about the future or one's work, for example. Just a few words can help those we meet a lot. Today, Pt came over to spend a relaxed weekend with us in Manly. We always enjoy his company and have good dhamma discussions with laughter and fun as well. He's very busy with his work and usually works on Sundays too, so we were fortunate and honoured that he was able to take the time off and was prepared to brave the stormy waves for the crossing. Actually, it was very stormy when he confirmed the plans and when we went into the city yesterday to meet up with Jon's family for brunch, but the sun came out for Pt today and he's got used to the ferry anyway:-) Pt is working with mentally and physically handicapped people and also spends a lot of time travelling, but is now able to spend the time usefully on his new Samsung galaxy tab. Excellent for reading to DSG and replying from too and it fits in his pocket. We discussed about how the more confidence and understanding there is of dhammas in daily life, the less one sees any circumstance or work as any kind of hindrance to the Path. The only real hindrance is wrong view. Pt also commented on how there are few questions and dilemmas when the various dhammas in daily life are seen to occur very naturally (or something along those lines). After trying to determine what kind of dressing he'd like with his kebab as his reply is always 'anything'(!!), Jon went off to buy the lunch and we started chatting about tendencies and conditions. Pt brought along a few notes on his Galaxy, so he'll have to fill in the blanks. We were sitting outside overlooking the big waves and surfers as we discussed accumulations and the role of panna, latent tendencies leading to the arising of cetasikas, the ever-growing accumulation and so on. In between discussions we also discussed other projects - all very easily, skipping from work to lunch to household problems (our leaking ceiling) to dhamma topics. Ah yes, we had some discussion about attanuditthi and sakkhaya ditthi (wrong view of atta vs specifically wrong view concerning self). We think a lot in the day about things. How much wrong view of atta is involved? More discussion as we ate our kebabs - always the simplest preparations when Pt visits and he's always so very considerate. It sounds as though his diet at home is even simpler, but when we start to compare our tendencies for lobha and this is lots of conceit (mana) of course! We had discussions about wrong view, conceit and attachment. Trying to find them or identify them is not understanding. What else? We sat around Pt's favourite table indoors and tried to take a cd player/tape-recorder to pieces. We chatted about rupas arising and falling away independently of experience and how we couldn't talk about objects 'over there' as arising. No things 'out there'. Of course, we all agreed!! No meditation questions/dilemmas/ different pov's arising this time. We really need Alex here for the discussions:-)) We did bring up your car and tree examples in your absence, Alex and I said I'd like to give you a call sometime... Perhaps next time Pt comes over we'll try and skype you in. Some discussion about seeing objects as only dhammas in sense and mind door processes, a discussion about the wording in a sutta on vedana - B.Bodhi's notes (in our copies of the SN books!!) to the rescue and more there on latent tendencies. When one studies the Abhdidhamma, one sees so much abhidhamma in the suttas. There is so much more meaning, I feel. Pt laughs as we pull out our books and scraps of paper - all redundant as my niece and Jon's nephew also told us for anyone young these days. I tried to tempt Pt with bits of fruit and biscuits and a drink, but it's not easy at all, so most the time Jon and I nibble while he tinkers with screw-drivers and we all chat on about the Dhamma. More on jhana, suppression, patience and equanimity as perfections. An interesting discussion on hearing the Buddha in paramattha terms, the role of kamma, the experiencing of pleasant/unpleasant objects, different accumulations and so on. Jon and I had been up since 5.00 ish and had an early adventurous swim and I'd start to feel a little sleepy but then feel so refreshed by the interesting discussions we were having. We fixed the tape-recorder and Pt eventually had a drink and a biscuit. We chatted about microphone leads in between chatting about right effort and intention (or perhaps that was earlier?). What else Pt? Identifying with ailments of the body to understand cittas? Wasn't this trying to understand? Thinking rather than understanding? And then it was time to walk back to the ferry, checking out the surf and surfers on the beach along the way. We watched one surfer a really long way out catching a huge wave and remembered that whether in a lovely, open space with beautiful views or in an inner-city small area, just visible objects, just sounds, attachments and aversions regardless. The Dhamma really does help us to live easily, appreciating that understanding can arise anytime at all. The circumstances, the dilemmas or ideas about ways to practice, no longer become the issue. Just passing dhammas.... A bit late and I'm really tired now, so maybe Pt will correct any errors or fill in any gaps on the train to work! Metta Sarah p.s Nina and all, I got a short note from Alberto to say he is in Bangkok (at last!) and was looking forward to meeting K.Sujin at the Sat discussion yest! ========= #116388 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pt's Galaxy met some books for the first time! nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you for your most interesting report about the time spent with pt, I really liked it! I liked your last sentence: understanding can arise anytime at all. When we are convinced about this, there are no longer issues about ways to practice. Nina. Op 24-jul-2011, om 13:35 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > The Dhamma really does help us to live easily, appreciating that > understanding can arise anytime at all. The circumstances, the > dilemmas or ideas about ways to practice, no longer become the > issue. Just passing dhammas.... #116389 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta is creating future realities nilovg Dear Philip, Always nice to hear from you. Op 24-jul-2011, om 12:33 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > N: This must have been a traumatic experience, that dementia can go > that far. How good you helped taking care of her, but how difficult > it must have been for you. I appreciate your kusala. > > Ph: This interests me, because it suggests that even if akusala > cittas are behind a conventional act, such as taking care of one's > parents, it can still be called "kusala." Usually students of A.S > are very quick to question whether an act is truly rooted in kusala > cittas. So why do you say you appreciate my kusala? > ------ N: Yes I do, no denying! Cittas alternate so quickly, and of course there are akusala cittas in between the kusala cittas, that is quite natural. Evenso, you had the good intention to visit your parents and take care of them. You came all the way from Japan. ------- > Ph: In fact, the cittas at work were consistently akusala - > resentment, embarassment, irritation, longing for escape. There > were a few moments when my mother behaved in a way that was more > acceptable to lobha-rooted cittas, and at those times there was a > semblance of generous friendly cittas on my part, but no, they were > rooted in lobha,.... And so can we say that some deeds are kusala > by their conventional form rather than the cittas behind them? > ------ N: I know what you mean, you think that merely the outward appearance of your deeds was good. You are inclined always to critize yourself. It is as I said above. In between you also thought of the Dhamma and is this not kusala? --------- > > Ph: True that I was escaping an unpleasant situation by thinking > about Dhamma. As we know, worldlings have only one way to escape > painful feeling, and that is by seeking pleasant feeling, with > lobha. In my opinion, that was what was going on then, lobha for > Dhamma, .... > ------- N: It is difficult to know all the different cittas, sure. Don't be afraid when thinking of the Dhamma, there is not lobha all the time. ------- > Ph: As long as we know there is lobha, and don't take our musings > about Dhamma as something pure, the True Path. I think the > "reminders" that get shared a lot at DSG are probably food for > lobha. Also possibly food for moments of detached reflection, but > probably very few moments like that! > ------- N: It does not matter, all such moments are conditioned. If you try too much to catch all your lobha and to critizise yourself, you make life too complicated for yourself. ------- > > > > Ph: Well, I have gone off topic. The point was that mindfulness is > > > the best way to take care of the future... > -------- N: Yes and also of the present. ----- > > Better to consider the truth than going on worrying, such as about > > health issues of dear people. > > Ph: That's true, lots of attachment for Dhamma, but could there > possibly be a better object for attachment? And of course, as you > say, occasionally occcasion for detachment. Very occasionally... > ------- N: That is the way detachment can be accumulated. Don't despise the very few moments of kusala. ------- Nina. > #116390 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta is creating future realities philofillet Hi Nina Thanks for your comments, don't worry, I am nit hard on myself despite what must seem to be a severe attitude at times. And thank you for appreciating my kusala, yes I flew a far way to visit them, true. Metta, Phil p.s today I re-read the chapters on kamma condition and nutriment condition in your book on the paccayas, really great!!! Back next weekend with sone questions, hopefully... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroup Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Philip, > Always nice to hear from you. > Op 24-jul-2011, om 12:33 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > > N: This must have been a traumatic experience, that dementia can go > > that far. How good you helped taking care of her, but how difficult > > it must have been for you. I appreciate your kusala. > > > > Ph: This interests me, because it suggests that even if akusala > > cittas are behind a conventional act, such as taking care of one's > > parents, it can still be called "kusala." Usually students of A.S > > are very quick to question whether an act is truly rooted in kusala > > cittas. So why do you say you appreciate my kusala? > > > ------ > N: Yes I do, no denying! Cittas alternate so quickly, and of course > there are akusala cittas in between the kusala cittas, that is quite > natural. Evenso, you had the good intention to visit your parents and > take care of them. You came all the way from Japan. > ------- > > Ph: In fact, the cittas at work were consistently akusala - > > resentment, embarassment, irritation, longing for escape. There > > were a few moments when my mother behaved in a way that was more > > acceptable to lobha-rooted cittas, and at those times there was a > > semblance of generous friendly cittas on my part, but no, they were > > rooted in lobha,.... And so can we say that some deeds are kusala > > by their conventional form rather than the cittas behind them? > > > ------ > N: I know what you mean, you think that merely the outward appearance > of your deeds was good. You are inclined always to critize yourself. > It is as I said above. In between you also thought of the Dhamma and > is this not kusala? > --------- > > > > Ph: True that I was escaping an unpleasant situation by thinking > > about Dhamma. As we know, worldlings have only one way to escape > > painful feeling, and that is by seeking pleasant feeling, with > > lobha. In my opinion, that was what was going on then, lobha for > > Dhamma, .... > > > ------- > N: It is difficult to know all the different cittas, sure. Don't be > afraid when thinking of the Dhamma, there is not lobha all the time. > ------- > > Ph: As long as we know there is lobha, and don't take our musings > > about Dhamma as something pure, the True Path. I think the > > "reminders" that get shared a lot at DSG are probably food for > > lobha. Also possibly food for moments of detached reflection, but > > probably very few moments like that! > > > ------- > N: It does not matter, all such moments are conditioned. If you try > too much to catch all your lobha and to critizise yourself, you make > life too complicated for yourself. > ------- > > > > > > Ph: Well, I have gone off topic. The point was that mindfulness is > > > > the best way to take care of the future... > > > -------- > N: Yes and also of the present. > ----- > > > Better to consider the truth than going on worrying, such as about > > > health issues of dear people. > > > > Ph: That's true, lots of attachment for Dhamma, but could there > > possibly be a better object for attachment? And of course, as you > > say, occasionally occcasion for detachment. Very occasionally... > > > ------- > N: That is the way detachment can be accumulated. Don't despise the > very few moments of kusala. > ------- > Nina. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #116391 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:00 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Dhamma Discussion in Bhutan, no 7. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - I insert below only a couple brief comments, and I note that I take no exception to what you write here. :-) In a message dated 7/24/2011 4:30:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 22-jul-2011, om 18:33 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > N: Self listening and considering, even writing this Email, > what about it? > ------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Here's "what about it," ;-), Nina: A number of folks here apply this > truth of no self, including you at times, to meditating and > guarding the > senses, and only such as these, and, in particular, not to > listening to, > considering, and discussing the Dhamma. That specialized > application is what I > find objectionable. Studying and thinking about the Dhamma is in no > way less > an intentional activity than is meditating. Moreover, the Buddha urged > intentional practices of various sorts, most assuredly including > meditation, > and he did so at least as much as he urged Dhamma study. > -------------------------------------------------- > N: I did not quite get the first sentences you wrote as to > specialized application. Then you write about intention, but this > is no problem. Of course there is cetanaa, it arises with each > citta. As to guarding the senses, indriya samvara siila, this > pertains to vipassanaa in daily life. Many suttas about this > subject. An object presents itself through one of the six doors, > and if there is awareness of it, that doorway is guarded. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: I would add that a habit of awareness can be developed. ------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > Quote N: When the citta is humble and gentle, with sincerity, one can > appreciate reminders such as those quoted above. Then one will be a > person "easy to speak to". But when the citta is harsh, unwieldy, not > pliable, not humble, one will not be "easy to speak to". Thus it all > depends what the citta is like when reading such reminders. > --------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Reminders of no-self and other essential matters are wonderful and are > very much appreciated. I certainly appreciate them! Repeated > reminders by > others and by oneself serve as aids that come forth in the mind when > triggered by events, provided that one has developed the habit of > introspection. > ------ N: Introspection, I know you are very observant, from former posts you wrote. And then: one step further and this is difficult: not merely noticing dosa, but to realize dosa as a conditioned dhamma. Otherwise there is still 'my dosa'. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: Only "mine" to the extent that distinguishing between persons (in terms of experiences, thinking, emotions, "accumulations," and so on) is not entirely deluded. While beings are not separate realities, they are pragmatically distinguishable based on the fact that interrelated namas and rupas arise within streams of conditionality, making, for example the Buddha's stating that we are each heir to our own kamma a truth. Nonetheless, and certainly so, you are correct in saying that these namas and rupas are not "mine" in any but a conventional sense, because there is no "me" apart from them, no genuine entity at all called "me" for them to belong to, the notion of "me" being merely a conventional imputation, and likewise making "mine" nonsense in any ultimate sense. ------------------------------------------------ But first the first stages of insight have to be realized: seeing naama as naama and ruupa as ruupa. Otherwise it is impossible to understand dosa as a mere conditioned mental phenomenon. ------- > > H: It is also true that is easy and pleasant to speak with folks > who are > calm and accepting. But speaking forcefully is not in itself an > indication > of an aggressive mind. > ------- N: This has a different meaning in the texts. Easy to speak to: one listens with ready ear, also translated as docile, but in English this has a peiorative meaning. One is openminded to the teachings. Difficult to speak to: this is the opposite. But I know what you mean. ------- > > H: Here was my motivation: The folks on DSG who meditate, and who use > introspection to examine the mind, and who attempt to be attentive > to their > bodily sensations and emotional reactions to them (and so on), do > so because > we find these actions to be very useful, and we understand the > doing of > them to have been explicitly taught by the Buddha. .... > There is no intention here to fight, .... > Please don't confuse my "speaking up" with angry confrontation, Nina. > I wouldn't hurt you for the world, but I think it important to be > frank and > honest with you. Otherwise, I wouldn't be acting properly or > showing you > due respect. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: I appreciate it when people speak sincerely and frankly about their feelings. Really no problem at all. As to all these discussions about meditation: of course samatha is a high degree of kusala. But sammaa samaadhi, right concentration, can be miccha-samaadhi, wrong concentration, without people realizing this. --------------------------------------------------- HCW: Many wholesome activities have their less wholesome counterparts, including study. --------------------------------------------------- I think you know too that true calm that is kusala is not conditioned by mere sitting and concentrating on one object. -------------------------------------------------- HCW: I agree with that. -------------------------------------------------- I mention this because some people may not know this. It depends on the individual. They may misunderstand when they hear Kh Sujin saying: Sati and pa~n~naa are needed to know this and to develop more calm that is kusala. I personally find it helpful to know more details about the cetasikas that accompany kusala citta and akusala citta, but again, appreciating this depends on the individual. That is why I mentioned the citta that is humble and gentle, with sincerity... I am thinking of the six pairs of sobhana cetasikas that accompany each kusala citta. Calm, lightness, mallleability, wieldiness, proficiency and rectitude. They all assist sobhana citta and its accompanying cetasikas so that citta and cetasikas are alert, healthy and efficient in performing kusala. They are classified as six pairs, one pertaining to citta and one pertaining to the mental body, cetasikas. They oppose sluggishness as to kusala, they make citta react quickly as to the opportunity to develop kusala. The citta that is akusala has the opposite qualities, it is harsh and unwieldy, crooked, heavy, lazy. Considering these qualities I find helpful to understand more the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta. -------- Nina. =============================== With metta, Howard ___________________________________ Listening to the Dhamma /"There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five? "One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. One's mind grows serene. "These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma."/ (From the Dhammassavana Sutta, AN 5.202) But also, from another tradition: Silence and Practice Trump Study /All my days I have been raised among the Sages, and I found nothing better for oneself than silence; not study, but practice is the main thing; and one who talks excessively brings on sin./ (Shimon ben Rabban Gamliel, Ethics of the Fathers 1:17) #116392 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: six worlds (part 2) epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ---------- > N: As I understand the texts, this can only come about when going > through all the stages of insight. ... These three comprehensions actually contain > the stages of insight in due order. ... There are 3 kinds > of mundane f.u. (lokiya-p.), namely: full understanding of the known > (ta-p.), f.u. as investigating (trana-p.), and f.u. as overcoming > (pahna-p.) ... > Thus, there cannot be pahaana, release or relinquishment, before > fully understanding and investigating realities. > I believe that it is valuable to go along with the texts. Thanks for a very helpful discussion of the general stages of insight and the dependency on realization of insight for release. I am not sure how the moments I was describing fit into the official categories - they may not be complete, or they may not represent a overall-letting-go such as would be accomplished after completion of such major stages of development. Perhaps they are illusory - or perhaps they are just smaller stepping-stones of momentary release that eventually lead to a greater stage of development, along with the stages of insight. I know everything is supposed to happen in the correct order according to the appropriate accumulations, and you are right to 'stick with the texts' in determining what happens when, but I do think that we have moments when things happen that may be 'in advance' of our actual stage and that they lead to other developments in the future. I've had some experiences that just came about that seemed way ahead of where I 'really am' in understanding, and that just lasted for a short period of time but left a strong impression. I don't know where such things come from. In Christianity it would be called a 'gift of Grace,' and I think such things sometimes happen to Buddhists too - you get an experience of insight or release that you don't necessarily 'deserve,' given your general state, and it is like a gift of seeing what is up ahead. Anyway, I'm sure such things don't fit into the lawful arrangement of the path, but they seem to happen sometimes, and have some important meaning. It also seems to me that sometimes we just "let go" because we "let go," but I understand that this is sort of unjustified and unexplained in the texts and so may not be something that can be certified or accounted for, if it happens at all. Nina wrote: ...I prefer to follow the texts of the Tipi.taka and the > ancient commentaries. Other ways such as suggested by Yeats seem to > me not so precise. > -------- I agree that the Yeats quote was not especially precise. I just thought it was interesting that coming from another direction he had that way of expressing a 'similar' moment of clarity. Rob E. wrote: ...On the other hand, I think it's a mistake to sort of > > dismiss, or not acknowledge, the moments when these senses work > > together to create specific kinds of experiences. I don't think > > that hearing a melody is a conceptual experience, as opposed to > > hearing pure sound, one separate moment at a time.... > > > ------- > N: Of course there is thinking of an association of different > experiences and meanings, such as a melody, or a story. We do that > all the time, no denial. Thinking, though, is different from seeing, > arising because of different conditions. Is thinking always conceptual? If one is "conceiving" the melody that is formed by a number of notes, is that concept or just a way of ordering perception? I understand that thoughts "about" melody, associations with a "story" are concepts. But is there a level of direct thinking, tied to perception, that is pre-conceptual? Still, the distinction between "thinking" that unifies the melody for citta, and "hearing" which takes in just the raw sounds, is useful. > > R: As you have said, even the arahant "takes turns" between tuning > > his understanding to absolute reality and experiencing - with > > detachment - the human experiences that we all share. Even Buddha > > talked about his aches and pains when he got old, and he never said > > it was wrong to acknowledge this level of reality. > > > ------ > N: Correct. But he did not think with aversion about pain. > ----- I exactly agree with this. It is experiencing "conventional" reality, but without attachment or delusion. There is a type of dreaming that we have sometimes where we are sort of conscious within the dream and think "oh this is a dream." It is possible that the arahant can deal with people and do ordinary things and still be aware that it is a fabricated reality at the same time, and thus have no attachment to it. > > R: Maybe there is inherent attachment in seeing a mountain as "a > > mountain" and lasting, but perhaps one can have detachment from > > this attachment and understand the fact that the mountain- > > experience is an attached experience. I guess there is attachment > > in that, but there can maybe also be understanding, as you said > > about the music. > > > ------ > N: Well said. When understanding attachment as such, as a dhamma, > there is already a degree of detachment from attachment. :-) For one who is still very attached, that is a nice thought - that we can see the attachment as a dhamma, and thus, even while still attached, take a step back from attachment. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #116393 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta is creating future realities epsteinrob Hi Phil. Hope you don't mind a quick side-comment or two. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Ph: This interests me, because it suggests that even if akusala cittas are behind a conventional act, such as taking care of one's parents, it can still be called "kusala." I have continued to think that if one has a "kusala intention" for doing a "kusala action" that moments of akusala arising, as they always will, does not override or defeat the kusala intention behind the activity. But I could be wrong... I think that trying to do good has merit even when we don't totally make it. Imagine if we said, "Well my reaction to doing this is mostly akusala, so I'm not going to bother taking care of my parents." It seems kind of obvious to me that this would be *much more* akusala, and that there must be some merit in the old "doing the right thing" for someone else, honoring your parents in action, etc. You always say that the presence of kusala or akusala is not an excuse for doing bad things and thinking 'they are just moments that arise without control so why change the action?' And I continue to agree with you. > Ph: Yes, this is true. I was very grateful for the Dhamma. True that I was escaping an unpleasant situation by thinking about Dhamma. As we know, worldlings have only one way to escape painful feeling, and that is by seeking pleasant feeling, with lobha. > Ph: That's true, lots of attachment for Dhamma, but could there possibly be a better object for attachment? And of course, as you say, occasionally occasion for detachment. Very occasionally... I wanted to strongly agree that having the Dhamma as pleasant object or object of attachment is much better than having some other object of attachment. We are going to have attachment all the time anyway, but if the attachment is to the Dhamma, you will be more likely to absorb the teachings and begin to respond to them to a greater degree. You may go to a commentary for escape, but wind up understanding something about life or dhammas that you didn't understand before, and that will lead to better things happening. That's what I think anyway. I think if you saw someone else who was using the Dhamma as an attachment, which is also to say taking the Dhamma as a refuge, you would not feel sorry for that person and say "Poor soul, he is clinging to the raft." I think you would say he was having a fairly "advanced" form of attachment. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #116394 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:02 am Subject: Re: Death epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Robert E, > > When I said "the present-moment aspect of the Dhamma" I was referring to more than the fact that there was only the present moment. I was referring to the fact that the entire Dhamma applied to the present moment. > > That includes instructions that would seem, from a conventional point of view, to require a period of time. > > ------------- > > RE: Nobody disagrees with the "present moment" aspect of the Dhamma. What we disagree with is the interpretation that is presented of what the "present moment" is or contains, how it operates and exactly how conditionality does or does not affect the moment. EVERYONE agrees that the Dhamma exists and pertains to this very moment, as there is no other. > ------------- > > KH: Yes, everyone who thinks about it will have to agree there is only the present moment. But only the Dhamma explains that moment's contents, their cause and cessation, and the path leading to their cessation. > > In studying those things, we should never forget that they *all* pertain to the present moment. That's where people go wrong. There are many things spoken about the moment and accumulations and tendencies in Abhidhamma and various commentaries that are about the relation between one moment and the next. In fact, all latent tendencies, accumulations, passing on of these from one citta to the next, how many moments there are in a rupa as opposed to a citta, etc., are very much about the continuity and stream of moments. That fact that moments take place one moment at a time, and are self-contained at that particular moment, does not take away at all from the many aspects of the teachings that are explicitly about the relation between many moments within a stream of moments. I don't think it is wrong that there is only one moment [at a time] but I do think the emphasis on a single isolated moment instead of all the relations between moments that are taught about in Abhidhamma and commentary, is a mistake in terms of what you emphasize and what you dismiss as important. Commentaries will talk about the development of jhana to the point where there are "many moments of jhana in a row" and the "many moments in a row" is extremely significant. It is a different level of development that merely having a "single moment" of jhana. And they will talk about having a steady, continuous group of moments of mindfulness in a row. When accumulations build to the point where there are consistent experiences of a particular kusala cetasika, that is very significant, and is an important part of the Dhamma. Realizing the true nature of a single dhamma in a single moment of insight is of course the mechanism by which insight, panna, understanding, take place and develop, but much of what that understanding leads to in terms of accumulation and development can only be understood in relation to strings of moments, rather than single moments. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #116395 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta is creating future realities nilovg Dear Phil, I just heard a Thai recording, Kh S: 'We listen in order to detach'. If this is the aim, less lobha for Dhamma. If understanding is developed of what appears now, then there are no other thoughts about wishing for comfort. No time! Nina. Op 24-jul-2011, om 17:00 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > Thanks for your comments, don't worry, I am nit hard on myself > despite what must seem to be a severe attitude at times. > And thank you for appreciating my kusala, yes I flew a far way to > visit them, true. > ------ Nina. #116396 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta is creating future realities philofillet Hi Rob E Thanks for your comments. I read recently that it is an incredibly rare thing to be endowed with sound physical and mental faculties and the desire to good. I agree that it doesn't matter if it is mostly rooted in akusala desire for the well being of thr khandas, or mostly kusala. We are householders living infatuated by sense objects. That is why I place emphasis on the precepts. If there is going to be attachment at the root of things we need at least some kind of milepost to know that the Buddha's teaching is reaching us. Being able to say "there is only the presently arisen nama and rupa" is not so difficult, I can fo it too. But in my opinion abstaining ftom bad deeds is a concrete indication of listening to and respecting the Nuddha, "wisdom shines forth in behaviour" as my favourite sutta puts it. And of course there is often a lot of clinging to self image when we abstain. Well, I am probably off topuc. Thanks for your comments, I will hopefully be posting on weekends only, so. won't be able to continue on thus topic, for now. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Phil. > Hope you don't mind a quick side-comment or two. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Ph: This interests me, because it suggests that even if akusala cittas are behind a conventional act, such as taking care of one's parents, it can still be called "kusala." > > I have continued to think that if one has a "kusala intention" for doing a "kusala action" that moments of akusala arising, as they always will, does not override or defeat the kusala intention behind the activity. But I could be wrong... I think that trying to do good has merit even when we don't totally make it. Imagine if we said, "Well my reaction to doing this is mostly akusala, so I'm not going to bother taking care of my parents." It seems kind of obvious to me that this would be *much more* akusala, and that there must be some merit in the old "doing the right thing" for someone else, honoring your parents in action, etc. > > You always say that the presence of kusala or akusala is not an excuse for doing bad things and thinking 'they are just moments that arise without control so why change the action?' And I continue to agree with you. > > > Ph: Yes, this is true. I was very grateful for the Dhamma. True that I was escaping an unpleasant situation by thinking about Dhamma. As we know, worldlings have only one way to escape painful feeling, and that is by seeking pleasant feeling, with lobha. > > > Ph: That's true, lots of attachment for Dhamma, but could there possibly be a better object for attachment? And of course, as you say, occasionally occasion for detachment. Very occasionally... > > I wanted to strongly agree that having the Dhamma as pleasant object or object of attachment is much better than having some other object of attachment. We are going to have attachment all the time anyway, but if the attachment is to the Dhamma, you will be more likely to absorb the teachings and begin to respond to them to a greater degree. You may go to a commentary for escape, but wind up understanding something about life or dhammas that you didn't understand before, and that will lead to better things happening. That's what I think anyway. > > I think if you saw someone else who was using the Dhamma as an attachment, which is also to say taking the Dhamma as a refuge, you would not feel sorry for that person and say "Poor soul, he is clinging to the raft." I think you would say he was having a fairly "advanced" form of attachment. > > Best, > Robert E. > > = = = = = = = = = = > #116397 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta is creating future realities philofillet Hi Nina, I learned once that the commentary to MN10 says(or perhaps Vism) that physical postures are obstacles to satipatthana, they interfere with the arising of satipatthana. I wonder then if thinking with attachment to concepts of what is arising now does not also create an obstacle to satipatthana? As you know, I belueve there is a lot of thinking about what nama and rupa are arising now rather than direct understanding. And that all this thinking with attachment could obstruct in the same way that attachment to postures could. I have said this countless times, so no news here. Thanks Nina, back next weekend. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil, > I just heard a Thai recording, Kh S: 'We listen in order to detach'. > If this is the aim, less lobha for Dhamma. If understanding is > developed of what appears now, then there are no other thoughts about > wishing for comfort. No time! > Nina. > Op 24-jul-2011, om 17:00 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > > Thanks for your comments, don't worry, I am nit hard on myself > > despite what must seem to be a severe attitude at times. > > And thank you for appreciating my kusala, yes I flew a far way to > > visit them, true. > > > ------ > Nina. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #116398 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:18 am Subject: Floated by Joy :-)! bhikkhu5 Friends: Joy (Pîti) is a Link to Awakening! The Joy Link to Awakening (P"ti-sambojjhanga) has the characteristic of suffusing contentment, and the property of gladdening satisfaction. This Joy Link to Awakening manifests as mental elation, which can reach five successively increasing degrees of intensity: 1: Minor Joy, which can raise the hair on the body when thrilled. 2: Momentary Joy, which flashes like lightning at various occasions. 3: Showering Joy, which breaks over the body repeatedly like sea-waves. 4: Uplifting Joy, which can be strong enough to even levitate the body. 5: Pervading Joy, which is like a heavy sponge all saturated with water. Visuddhimagga IV 94-9 The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (āsava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Joy Link to Awakening based on seclusion, on disillusion, on ceasing, & culminating in relinquishment, then can neither any mental fermentation, nor any fever, nor discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one who has aroused enthusiastic energy, there arises a joy not of this world & the Joy Link to Awakening emerges there. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] Any one convinced by understanding of Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, gets an enthusiastic sense of the sublime good goal of Nibbāna & gains the gladness connected, joined, and fused with this Dhamma! In anyone gladdened, Joy is born. The body of the Joyous is calmed. One of calm body experiences pleasure and happiness! The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. The concentrated mind sees and knows things as they really are. This brings disgust and disillusion, which enables full, and direct experience of mental release. It is in this way that Joy indeed is a factor leading to Awakening! MN [i 37-8], AN [iii 21-3], DN [iii 21-3] <...> Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <....> #116399 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:16 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Dhamma Discussion in Bhutan, no 7. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 24-jul-2011, om 17:00 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > HCW: > I would add that a habit of awareness can be developed. > ------------------------------------------------ N: Yes, it can gradually be accumulated. -------- > > N: Introspection, I know you are very observant, from former posts > you wrote. And then: one step further and this is difficult: not > merely noticing dosa, but to realize dosa as a conditioned dhamma. > Otherwise there is still 'my dosa'. > ------------------------------------------------ > HCW: > Only "mine" to the extent that distinguishing between persons (in > terms of experiences, thinking, emotions, "accumulations," and so > on) is not > entirely deluded. -------- N: Right, there are different individualities. We say, different characters, inclinations, because the khandhas arising and falling away 'of this person' are different from those of 'that person'. ------------------------------------------------------- > > H: Listening to the Dhamma > > > /"There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which > five?... > > But also, from another tradition: > Silence and Practice Trump Study > /All my days I have been raised among the Sages, and I found nothing > better for oneself than silence; not study, but practice is the > main thing; and > one who talks excessively brings on sin./ > (Shimon ben Rabban Gamliel, Ethics of the Fathers 1:17) ------ N: This is interesting. I think just practice without 'study' may not be possible. How could one be aware of naama and ruupa without knowing what they are? It depends what kind of study, study of the present moment? I agree that talking excessively is likely to be useless talk, akusala cittas may motivate this. ------- Nina.