#121200 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 5:38 am Subject: Re: no control and justification for akusala truth_aerator Scott, >A: "Why is wholesome activity develops Self perception, while >walloping in one's own defilements does not? It seems that it is the >other way around." > >Scott: You have stoically been unable to get this point. Must be >your accumulations acting up again. You said: > >"Also, why is it ok not to resist defilements, but not ok to >actively do something against them (even if the activity is in >application of understanding)?" > >Scott: In the above, the self-view is totally clear both in the >idea that a self can 'not resist defilements' and in the idea that a >self can 'actively do something against them.' >============= Why can't and shouldn't there be Right Effort? It is you who constantly is bringing Self, and abstract metaphysics into discussion. >In your concrete, globalistic, macroscopic way, you actually think >in terms of 'I am resisting,' 'I am not resisting,' or 'I am >actively doing something.' >====================================== No. You are guessing incorrectly. I do not consider metaphysical existence of "I" . This doesn't mean that one should drop dead like a log and never react to anything. When it is cold, a person does something about it (puts on more clothing, switches on the heating in the house, etc). If a person is thirsty, one drinks liquid to quench the thirst. When one is hungry, one eats. Wishing to warm up, quench thirst, quench hunger, etc, doesn't work by itself. There are specific actions that need to be done. Same is right effort. Not to stop arisen defilements or to prevent their future arising, is wrong effort. And even here it is an action anyways. Between right effort and wrong effort, it is better to stick with right effort. With best wishes, Alex #121201 From: "Christine" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 5:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 12/8/2011 1:08:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > BTW, I don't know a whole lot about Mahasi, but in all of the references I > have had to his work, there's been nothing about the super-slow noting > meditation of walking, etc. that you keep playing off of. Mahasi is famous > for emphasizing satipatthana practice in sitting meditation and using mental > noting, and focusing on the rising and falling of the breath in the belly, > rather than the nose-tip. He taught the slow walking meditation as well, > but that is not his invention. It's a staple of the Theravadin monastic > tradition, often used to break up sitting periods. And it is not the main > practice that Mahasi taught. > =================================== Hello all, The problem with the `westernization' of the Mahasi method is the confusion which has arisen from the term `noting'. Westerners tend to consider `noting' equivalent to `'labelling'. This was not what was originally intended. `Noting' is simply meant to be understood as `noticing' or `being aware of' – not `labelling'. With metta Chris #121202 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 6:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: 'N: Insight together with all perfections. I would like to stress again and again the connection with the perfections the Bodhisatta developed and all of us should develop. They all help to cling less to the self. Did you see Kh Sujin's book on the perfections? I think they are essential, without them we cannot reach the goal. Disenchantment, nekkhamma, is among them. And patience! Patience to listen, consider, develop. And viriya, never becoming discouraged, persevere. On line you can get the book from Zolag, but if you like, I can send you the book. D: thanks for your kind offer, Nina . I think more base knowledge of Abhidhamma would be good, before studying Kh Sujin's book. Perhaps we could discuss her writings under the topic of Parami at a later occasion (when we have gone through the cetasikas.. ) (?) with Metta Dieter #121203 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 6:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three jokes moellerdieter Hi Christine , all, you wrote: The problem with the `westernization' of the Mahasi method is the confusion which has arisen from the term `noting'. Westerners tend to consider `noting' equivalent to `'labelling'. This was not what was originally intended. `Noting' is simply meant to be understood as `noticing' or `being aware of' - not `labelling'. D: Good point .. I suspect the confusion is due to consider the noting like a kind of contemplation, whereas it is intended to serve as confirmation of being aware of .... B.T.W. slow movements are needed to bring automated actions/habits back to awareness. I recall Mahasi jokes in Thailand about watching (the breath by keeping focus on ) the moving abdomen. I.M.H.O. the choice (lips, nose ,abodomen..) is certainly most efficient where the attention of the sensation can be kept best. with Metta Dieter #121204 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Another ADL, was:kamma and this moment epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > The translation of this book into English with the title, "Abhidhamma > in Daily > Life" was initiated by Kabaa Aye U Chit Tin and U Han Htay, retired > officials of > the Department of Religious Affairs. The task was then taken up by U > Kyi Nyunt, > President of Theravada Buddhist Organization, Myanmar.... > The final translation and edition was done by Professor U Ko Lay in > April 1997. It was later revised by Venerable Sayadaw U Siilaananda. > I have the > hard copy of 1999 edition.> Thanks for the info, Nina. Sounds like an interesting book with an interesting history. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - #121205 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 6:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > The main aspect of his meditation teaching that I object to, and that, > BTW, so did Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, is Mahasi's "noting," which > Gunaratana considers, as do I, to be thinking as opposed to mere observing. The > intent of the noting practice of Mahasi's is to depersonalize thinking by, > for example, replacing "I am breathing in" by "breathing in," but as I see > the matter, that is still conceptualizing and replacing knowing by > thinking, whereas there should be just the knowing of the sensations. I don't see 'noting' as inherently different from counting, which is supported by the Visudhimagga and by tradition as one of the exercises towards building concentration and awareness. There are many expedient means used in various schools, and noting is a good expedient means, whether it should be used permanently or not. It allows one to keep track of where the attention goes, ie, the movement of the mind/citta and to become aware, thus training and redirecting attention to the sensation of the breath or other object of meditation. If done correctly there is not a sense of separate thinking, but of the thought "touching the object" as it is put, and being part of awareness, rather than having "separate thinking" arise. I haven't used noting all the time, but I was trained with it, and I think it's a positive tool for focusing awareness. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #121206 From: "colette_aube" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 6:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment, just like now! colette_aube Hi Sarah, "thoughts"? "The Liberation Through Hearing During The Intermediate State (Tibetan: bardo "liminality"; thodol as "liberation"[1]), sometimes translated as Liberation Through Hearing or Bardo Thodol is a funerary text. It is often referred to in the West by the more casual title, Tibetan Book of the Dead, a name which draws a parallel with the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead, another funerary text." Wikipedia (see BARDO THODOL) Is this a "thought", Sarah? In this case, the monks chant next to the corpse, the dead body of the deceased. DECEASED? How can a dead body HEAR? The chanting can physically enter the ear and can vibrate the ear drum but there is no "mind" for the sound to go to and thus have an effect. Rather esoteric, no? I mean to chant over a corpse. If the sound vibrations are not having an effect on the mind of the human being that is chanted over, then why is there any chanting at all? If I were to apply my own personal experience with NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES, then I can put this to rest by saying that CONSCIOUSNESS CONTINUES AFTER THE BODY HAS EXPIRED, but that would be rather shallow since I'm understanding so much more about the NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE and how the mind actually does work in this aspect of LIFE (the DEATH aspect of LIFE). Humourously, I was ranting, just before the THANKSGIVING holiday, here in the States, that it's gonna be RAPID FIRE, 1st it's THANKSGIVING, then XMAS comes upon us, followed, IMMEDIATELY by NEW YEARS (on the Julian callender that we in the West use), and before ya know it, we are all celebrating BACHUS through what is called CARNIVAL or MARDI GRAS. In that time, the time of celebrating the alleged birth of Jesus of Nazereth to the time of celebrating the alleged resurrection of Jesus of Nazereth, that tiny little space of time, we here in the USA have a lot to do. HOW CAN WE ACTUALLY HEAR ANYTHING, in that short space of time? Aren't our minds totally FIXATED on "things to do"? Isn't that a good example of the ability that an average middle class gang member has to THINK thoughts, or to focus of the thoughts that have been planted in their brain, their mind, by an exterior source, to carry out the ROUTINE and/or RITUAL behavior(s) that all burreacracy must have? ;) toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette_aube" wrote: > > > VERY GOOD SUTTA. > .... > S: Christine posted the entire sutta here: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/120924 > > Please share your further comments on it. > #121207 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 8:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three jokes upasaka_howard Hi, Chris (and Robert) - In a message dated 12/8/2011 1:45:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cjforsyth1@... writes: Hello all, The problem with the `westernization' of the Mahasi method is the confusion which has arisen from the term `noting'. Westerners tend to consider `noting' equivalent to `'labelling'. This was not what was originally intended. `Noting' is simply meant to be understood as `noticing' or `being aware of' – not `labelling'. ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: It seems to me, Chris, that Ven Mahasi DOES call for labeling when for example, he writes the following, quoted in an earlier post of mine: One must walk, noting as `raising, dropping' with each step. This noting will become easier after about two days. Then go on to noting the three movements as described above, as `raising, pushing forward, dropping'. In the beginning, it will suffice to note one or two movements only, thus `right step, left step' when walking fast and `raising, dropping' when walking slowly. --------------------------------------------------- With metta Chris ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121208 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 1:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes epsteinrob Hi Howard, and Chris. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Chris (and Robert) - > > In a message dated 12/8/2011 1:45:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > cjforsyth1@... writes: > > Hello all, > > The problem with the `westernization' of the Mahasi method is the > confusion which has arisen from the term `noting'. > > Westerners tend to consider `noting' equivalent to `'labelling'. This was > not what was originally intended. > > `Noting' is simply meant to be understood as `noticing' or `being aware > of' â€" not `labelling'. > ---------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > It seems to me, Chris, that Ven Mahasi DOES call for labeling when for > example, he writes the following, quoted in an earlier post of mine: > > > One must walk, noting as `raising, dropping' with each step. This noting > will become easier after about two days. Then go on to noting the three > movements as described above, as `raising, pushing forward, dropping'. In the > beginning, it will suffice to note one or two movements only, thus `right > step, left step' when walking fast and `raising, dropping' when walking > slowly. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard, I agree with you that there is genuine noting going on there, and that it is a form of thinking, no doubt. However, having experienced and practiced that way, I think I understand what it is for, and how it can be useful. Ideally, one might wind up *not* noting and just being aware of the present reality, but in practice, perhaps we could say in earlier practice if not all the way through, it is really useful to have a device to see when the mind is slipping away from being actually present to what is happening in the moment. There are at least several aspects of this for which I found noting a continuing useful way of practicing, though I would tend to spend time not noting as well, as I agree with you that it is a more seamless form of being aware if there is not a thought process going on at the same time: 1. Keeping track of what is actually happening at the moment. If you aren't aware of what is happening you can't note it, so it's a decent test. 2. Directing the attention not just to be aware that, for instance, breathing is taking place, but to be aware of the actual sensations/tactile object as it is contacted; 3. Keeping track of where the mind goes when attention wanders in a more specific way then just noticing that you've drifted off. It may not be useful for everyone, but like counting breaths, it's an expedient training device. And it's a lot better than thinking you're paying attention when you're not. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #121209 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 1:48 pm Subject: Re: Three jokes epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > I listened to Mahasi related talks a lot, and there is a lot of good Abhidhamma content. The slow moving thing is an unfortunate perversion of their reading of the commentary to the satipatthana sutta, I guess, in which - as you know - there are detailed references to the paramattha processes involved in walking, etc. They try to capture it through intentional practice. Well, as you know, we generally disagree about intentional practice. So I wouldn't say this is any different than the same argument regarding meditation in general. > A dear friend was a devotee and worked as an assistant in retreats, she almost collapsed from exhaustion and malnourishment because of the slow eating thing, combined with her retreat duties. Monastic life in general and retreats in particular are very rigorous. I don't think one should subject themselves to that in any case unless they are both enthusiastic for that life and well prepared for it. They should also be keeping track of whether their assistants are remaining strong and healthy, so they have responsibility for something like that too. That's just basic sense. > They also make claims about being able to move through stages of vipassana nana by following this form of "satipatthana meditation." (with the sitting at the forefront, of course.) That is again the same conflict about whether meditation is a vehicle of the path or not, so it's subject to the same debate as usual. All meditation disciplines claim that you can make progress by following them, and of course those who follow a meditative path do believe, as do I, that satipatthana can be developed that way. It's a true division in the understanding of practice. > I remember hearing a teacher tell the students that he wanted to tell them about something but they wouldn't be able to understand it just from a 10 day retreat, they'd need a 40 day retreat to get it. Well, without knowing what it is, hard to say what that means. If he wanted to have 40 days to train people to develop access concentration, that would not necessarily be unreasonable. > As for Goenka, I don't know as much, but when I did a google search I found scary forums where people asked about pre-stream and post-stream practices, they honestly believe they can get stream entry by going to these retreats. The Goenka community has been reputed to have some real cult-like qualities; some love it, some find it very weird or oppressive. On the other hand, I'm a fan of body-scanning, if it's not taken to a ridiculous extent. The Goenka scanning is very extensive and has a lot of claims that even I find a little hair-raising. > Anyways, I think I am joked out now, thanks for having tolerated my silliness. Writing them was fun, time to get back to work on my various stillborn projects instead of irritating people here! Well, stick around. You can irritate people in other ways than just joking. :-) Just kidding! If we had a contest as to who is most irritating, I'm sure it would be a close finish. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #121210 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes scottduncan2 Howard, Chris, Rob E., R: "Howard, I agree with you that there is genuine noting going on there, and that it is a form of thinking, no doubt. However, having experienced and practiced that way, I think I understand what it is for, and how it can be useful..." Scott: Conversations like this, about 'practice,' are patently circular - a haze of words about nothing in particular. I read them and can find absolutely nothing of substance. The Emperor's Clothes for sure. Scott. #121211 From: "connie" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes nichiconn Good one, Rob! "Expedient" LOLOL! connie > > It may not be useful for everyone, but like counting breaths, it's an expedient training device. And it's a lot better than thinking you're paying attention when you're not. > #121212 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:30 pm Subject: Re: kamma and this moment kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ---------- <. . .> > RE: I think it is interesting to muse over the "conventional" sort of reflection that may lead to better behavior, and the momentary dhamma level, in which there is only time to discern. I agree that both are important in their own realm. ---------- KH: Yes, in the realm of sentient beings "reflecting on one's own behaviour" is something that responsible people do. In the realm of paramattha dhammas, however, the entire world is created and destroyed in the present moment, and so there are no sentient beings. Concepts of "my behaviour" and "your behaviour" simply can't apply in the ultimately real realm. Ken H #121213 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:23 pm Subject: Re: kamma and this moment kenhowardau Hi Phil, --- <. . .> > Ph: Please radiate your work ethic in the general direction of Japan. --- KH: Like your other jokes of late, this one is pertinent. The idea of my radiating a work ethic is absurd, but no more absurd than the idea of my radiating metta. If I was to try metta radiation, the only things radiated would be lobha and wrong view. And you wouldn't want that. :-) Ken #121214 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 9:05 am Subject: Escape is Possible! bhikkhu5 Friends: Direct Experience of Development of the Noble 8-fold Way: The Blessed Buddha once said: What, friends, should be fully understood by direct experience? The Five Clusters of Clinging. What five? The cluster of clinging to form... The cluster of clinging to feeling... The cluster of clinging to perception... The cluster of clinging to construction... The cluster of clinging to consciousness... These are the 5 things, which should be understood by direct experience! What are the 2 things, which should be overcome & left by direct experience? Ignorance and Craving for new Becoming... These are the 2 things, which should be overcome, relinquished and left all behind by direct experience! And what are the 2 things, which should be realized by direct experience? Complete Understanding and Absolute Freedom... These are the two things, which should be realized by direct experience! And what are the 2 things, which should be developed by direct experience? Calm and Insight... These are the two things, which should be developed by direct experience. And how does a Bhikkhu indeed do so? Here, friends, the Bhikkhu develops: Right View , based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in release. Right Motivation, based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in release. Right Speech, based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in release. Right Action, based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in release. Right Livelihood, based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in release. Right Effort, based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in release. Right Awareness, based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in release. Right Concentration, based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in release. It is in this way that a Bhikkhu comes to fully understand all that, which should be understood; comes to overcome, and leave behind all, which should be left behind; comes to realize by direct experience all states that is realizable, & finally comes to develop all the mental states, which should be developed… More on Calm and Insight and Direct Experience: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Direct_Experience.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Calm_and_Insight.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/4_Realizations.htm Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. Book [V:52-3] section 45: The Way. 160: The Guest-House ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Escape through Direct Experience! #121215 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 7:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nimitta, yoniso manaasikara, concepts. Was: Is there a dhamma.. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > It's kind of paradoxical that in order to understand the Dhamma which describes the "world of presently arisen conditioned dhammas," one has to first understand linguistically that there is a world of dhammas and that they are the potential object of understanding. So you process the Dhamma through concept in order to understand what the concepts are pointing to. Then I guess concepts of Dhamma become less important once one can potentially recognize what appears as dhammas and doesn't have to think about it as much. .... S: Yes, I think you put this rather well. This is why it's said that there is less and less thinking about dhammas in between the vipassana nanas as panna increases - more and moe direct knowledge. .... > > Jon and I have had some interesting exchanges, but he said something to me recently that stuck with me. I asked him what was the purpose of the concepts in Dhamma, and he said something like "they introduce you to the world of dhammas." I think that sums it up pretty well. ... S: Yes, that's good. Metta Sarah ==== #121216 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 7:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Ph: Well, my point is what I am hearing again and again that it is seeing and visible object, hearing and sound etc where understanding can be developed hear and now. .... S: These are examples. Any dhammas appearing now. ... >I know you are strict about "no rule, no selecting" and I appreciate that, and have heard it often enough that I won't easily fall into the trap of thinking that I should only concentrate on seeing and visible object in a thoroughly misguided way. But there has also been a lot of listening about and to a lesser extent reading about and more recently more and more moments of considering in a somewhat more direct way the characteristics of visible object and seeing. .... S: Any idea at all of 'seeing and/or visible object first' would be "thoroughly misguided". Any focus, particular attention to any kind of dhamma is wrong. .... >I sometimes hear the term "it is sankhara khana for understanding", and I'm not sure exactly what that means, ... S: "sankhara khandha" - any cetasika other than vedana or sanna can be sankhara khandha for understanding - they all accumulate. .... >but feel that it indicates that all the moments of considering the characteristics of dhammas, especially seeing and visible object, are accumulating in a helpful way. I feel quite confident of that. .... S: Yes, any wise considering of dhammas is "sankhara khandha for understanding". Seeing and visible object are given as examples because they are always mentioned first in the texts (of the sense experiences) on account of the prevalence of seeing in a day. Usually, like now, there's seeing, but no awareness, no understanding at all that just a nama experiences, just a rupa, an element is experienced, followed by lots of stories. Of course, the same applies to all moments of sense experiencing. ... >seem to be getting by my concern about seeing lobha lobha lobha in everything. As Nina said in her "lew te" (?) post the other day, appreciating hearing A. Sujin talking about the roof of lobha and lobha everywhere doesn't mean that we have to have saddha exterminated by fears of lobha, there can also be confidence that understanding is developing now. .... S: Yes, when there's confidence in understanding now, no doubt, no worry about lobha, lobha everywhere! Metta Sarah ==== #121217 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 8:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The camp thing... sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > S: Whatever 'approach', 'whatever camp', 'whatever mixture' - only one way to liberation, that is satipatthana, the eightfold path, abolishing ignorance etc. > > > D: I would have fully agreed with : 'only one way to liberation, the eightfold path, abolishing ignorance etc ' ;-) ..... S: See the Satipatthana-Vibhanga Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.040.than.html "And what is the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference." ... > Sarah , the emphases on satipatthana is your approach . ' the only way ..' view basing on one sentence of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta is disputed . > One may however consider the possibility that the canonical 'only way' means: without practise of mindfulness , there is no further passing , i.e. to the training of samma samadhi, the Jhanas. .... S: Only the development of satipatthana leads out of the cycle. See the quotes I gave here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/115354 Also # 115292 ... > > Whereas the former aims to be mindful of the 6 senses media and to recognize its reality , the latter aims by absorbtion of the 6 six ( first and second jhana) > to see the states 'behind '. Each practise for its own framework. ... S: Again, see the quotes - all states apart from those in the development of satipatthana, the path factors lead to accumulating more 'bricks' in samsara. ... > Now for those who emphasize the Jhanas ( with plenty of canonical support) , your statement, obviously disregarding the 8th step , is not acceptable. .... S: No 'steps'. Path factors. It depends on accumulations whether mundane jhanas are attained prior to enlightenment or not. At moments of enlightenment, right concentration is of the degree of at least first jhana for all. Lots and lots on this in U.P under "jhana and nibbana", "jhana - 2 kinds" etc. ... > Hence I thought , if the two ' camps ' agree that approach with different emphases is possible (see example ceto vimutti and panna vimutti , as nicely presented by Gombrich, there could be a nicer atmosphere of discussion and sharing. .... S: Ceto vimutti is used in different contexts, always referring to (samma) samadhi. As Nyt dict states: "'deliverance of mind'. In the highest sense it signifies the fruition of Arahatship (s. ariya-puggala), and in particular, the concentration associated with it. It is often linked with the 'deliverance through wisdom' (pa~n~aa-vimutti, q.v.), e.g. in the ten powers of a Perfect One" In other words, when linked with pa~n~naa vimutti, it is never separated from enlightenment, from the fruit of the fully developed right understanding and other path factors. .... > > I like to point out that ongoing derogatory remarks about meditation show disrespect , involve unwholesome cetasikas and causing disputes and disunity of the forum. .... S: I agree that respect for others' opinions and expressions is commendable. I don't think this means one has to agree with those expressions, however, do you? I'm sure there will always be disputes on a discussion list, but there can be understanding and metta at these times too, can't there? Metta Sarah ===== #121218 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 8:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' sarahprocter... Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > R: "...Pannatti arise with citta only and are a creation of citta..." > > Scott: I think so. They are the objects of thinking - citta arising in a series. ... Sarah: Yes, objects of thinking, "a creation of citta", but NOT "pannatti arise with citta" Metta Sarah ==== #121219 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 8:26 pm Subject: Re: kamma and this moment, just like now! sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > I dont know this topic, but I read that someone is in hospital...and about helping. > Without understanding 4 Noble Truths this is impossible to help anyone. Also there cannot be compassion, karuna. Not understanding for Noble Truths, is a reason to compassion. No other reason. All the rest meaningless. .... S: Even for those who have never heard the Buddha's Teachings, there can still be kusala 'helping' and karuna (compassion) and even the development of it, a development of samatha, with understanding. However, without an understanding of paramattha dhammas, it will always be taken for someone's karuna, not an element. Only through the development of understanding of the 4NT can it be perfected. I agree that in terms of the cycle of samsara and the path, only the understanding of the 4NT including the development of satipatthana is of any ultimate value. The development of karuna and all brahama viharas will be much 'purer' when developed with the path and without any thought of self or result. Metta Sarah ==== #121220 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 8:38 pm Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > S: "...Like now, if there's wise considering of 'pariyatti' or 'pa~n~naa' or 'visible object' now, it's pariyatti, wise considering of such objects. As stressed, of course, multiple mind-door processes are involved whilst thinking of 'visible object' as it appears now...." > > Scott: As I've asked, so this is 'yoniso manasikaara' but what of pa~n~naa with concepts as objects? Is it the intermittent presence of pa~n~naa during 'yoniso manasikaara' that makes it pariyatti? .... S: yoniso manasikara is not necessarily referring to pariyatti. Panna with concepts as objects is not necessarily pariyatti either. As I wrote above, in order to be pariyatti, there has to be wise considering (i.e. considering with panna) of dhammas now. (let's keep the focus on now!) .... > > S: "...Understanding the present dhammas is more precious than 'working out the story' of such dhammas." > > Scott: Again, yes to this sort of statement. You seem to say it here at the end as if to say that what I am considering on the list should be dropped because it is inferior to 'understanding the present dhammas' - that I'm just 'working out the story.' Is this meant to suggest that considering this stuff as I am, you know, clarifying the role of pa~n~naa in pariyatti and whatnot, is a waste of time? Somehow 'wrong' of me? .... S: "It depends" as Nina says. It depends on the cittas right now. If our 'working it out' leads to more agitation, more 'getting lost in stories', whether stories about dhammas or anything else without panna, then it's useless. That's why in every discussion we have I like to emphasise the present dhammas as a reminder for us all. .... > It has been suggested that pa~n~naa can take concept as object when thinking about the Dhamma. We suggest that one's way of thinking about the Dhamma is some sort of inferior 'working out the story?' .... S: Again it all comes back to the dhammas now - not yours or mine or anyone else's. Understanding what appears now, such as the thinking or the attachment, for example, is the 'test' of all the concepts we've read and heard about. Metta Sarah ===== #121221 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 8:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Sarah: "Not 'just thinking' - thinking with pa~n~naa of course...Whenever pa~n~naa arises of any level, there is 'yoniso manasikaara' - actually, yoniso manasikaara whenever any mind-door processes are wholesome." > > Scott: Right. We're talking about the 'thinking' that is accompanied by kusala dhammaa. So thinking about the role of concepts as objects of pa~n~naa, seeking to clarify this by 'thinking' about it - this is not a waste of time, this could involve pa~n~naa, this could represent 'yoniso manasikaara,' and this needn't be said to be some sort of inferior, wrong-headed activity. .... Sarah: Right. Again, only panna will know. metta Sarah ==== #121222 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 8:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > Every time you jeer and make fun of other Buddhists you are creating akusala kamma patha on the level of speech. Just being aware of that may change your behavior. > > > > > > > > Ph: I'm aware of it right now and I don't care. I'm enjoying it. .... S: "I don't care". Any hiri and ottappa at such times? The reason I ask is that if there isn't the development of hiri and ottappa with regard to seemingly inconsequential bits of fun during the day, then when there are opportunities for more major kinds of harming, there is also likely to be less concern, surely? No need to reply! Metta Sarah ==== #121223 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 8:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I don't think there actually are things that are the so-called > concepts. There is thinking, but no concepts. There is thinking-of-my-car, > thinking-of-the-DSG, and so on and so forth. Concepts neither arise nor cease, for > there are no concepts. There's only thinking. .... S: Exactly! Well-expressed. Metta Sarah ===== #121224 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 9:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 8-dec-2011, om 20:01 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: thanks for your kind offer, Nina . > I think more base knowledge of Abhidhamma would be good, before > studying Kh Sujin's book. > Perhaps we could discuss her writings under the topic of Parami at > a later occasion (when we have gone through the cetasikas.. ) (?) ----- N: Anything you like to do is good. Nina. #121225 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 9:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three jokes nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 8-dec-2011, om 20:43 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > If done correctly there is not a sense of separate thinking, but > of the thought "touching the object" as it is put, and being part > of awareness, rather than having "separate thinking" arise. I > haven't used noting all the time, but I was trained with it, and I > think it's a positive tool for focusing awareness. ------ N: The problem is: in this way one will not understand the anattaness of sati. There will be a surreptious idea of I am focussing sati. Whereas, if one listens and considers what sati is, what the conditions are for its arising, what the objects of sati are, gradually understanding of its nature grows, and this in itself can be a condition for the arising of sati. It can arise unexpectantly, even in the midst of being busy or being engaged with something. One can learn that it works in its own way. The whole of the Abhidhamma has one purpose: understanding anattaness of realities. There has to be detachment from all realities also from sati. ------- Nina. #121226 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 9:21 pm Subject: Re: n sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Sarah: "Yes, reading or hearing Dhamma, but in paramattha terms, just moments of seeing and hearing particular objects as condition for pariyatti. Panna based on what has been seen or heard leading to further panna through further wise considering of what has been seen and heard..." > > Scott: To be clear, are you referring here to pa~n~naa taking only realities as objects? ... Sarah: No, hear we're discussing pariyatti - concepts of realities. .... > In 'seen or heard' are you referring to reading or listening to the Dhamma - conventional-level 'activities?' ... Sarah: Yes, but in an absolute sense, what is 'reading' or 'listening' if not the seeing of visible objects, the hearing of sounds, followed by thinking? ... >Pariyatti is pa~n~naa with concept as object: Yes or no? ... S: Yes. ... > > Sarah: "...I wouldn't include 'thought content' in thinking. Thinking consists of realities, the content, the concepts (about realities in this case) doesn't. There can be awareness now of thinking, not of concepts." > > Scott: Jon has suggested that citta that 'thinks' creates it's object - 'thought content' - in the moment of it's arising. ... Sarah: Yes, "citta that 'thinks' creates it's object". This is not the same as your phrase referring to " 'thought content' in thinking". The concept, the obect is not *in* thinking. .... >Does pa~n~naa take concepts for object or not? .... Sarah: Yes (unless paramattha dhamma is the object). ... >If so, are there like 'micro-concepts' of the momentary arising that no conscious 'awareness' consisting of wholes ever knows about? .... Sarah: Not sure I follow you. "Of the momentary arising cittas" - yes. Many, many, many mind-door processes at this very instant, usually with no awareness. In the case of the Buddha or an arahat it would be different, of course. ... ===== > Sarah: "...From the first manodvaravajjana citta (mind-door adverting consciousness) for the rest of the process, so including the javana cittas." > > Scott: These 'go by' too quickly for 'thought' I would assume, although you might be calling this process 'thought.' ... Sarah: Yes - these cittas are the 'thinking' cittas. (Not 'thought') ... >How do you differentiate 'thought' described as above and 'thought' as in the so-called 'ordinary' thought that we all do consciously all the time. .... Sarah: Let's not confuse thinking (cittas) with thoughts (pannatti). As for the 'ordinary' thought (pannatti??), whether there's any understanding of dhammas and concepts or not makes no difference as to what paramattha dhammas are, what pannatti are that are being 'thought about' now. I don't know what you mean by "that we all do consciously all the time". .... >The suggestion is that these apparently formed, construed strings of inner monologue about stuff are not the objects of pa~n~naa, but that the infinitessimal 'thought' in the moment is. ... Sarah: Sorry, not following you. All that matters now is the direct understanding of the realities appearing, so instead of discussing thoughts and pannatti, more helpful to consider and discuss more about the presently appearing paramattha dhammas. Apologies if I misunderstand you. ... > > S: "...As for 'complete thought about the Dhamma', this would involve mulitple mind-door processes..." > > Scott: And, again, what is the object of pa~n~naa at the level of pariyatti during these 'multiple mind-door processes?' Does pa~n~naa take a 'complete thought' as object? If there is a momentary entity known as 'thought' then what is it exactly? ..... Sarah: v-i-s-i-b-l-e o-b-j-e-c-t - not an example of 'labelling', but an example of the multiple concepts thought about by multiple mind-door processes before there is any 'complete thought' such as 'visible object'. We can't say how many mind-door processes are involved or in which ones panna can arise at the pariyatti level. All this is way beyone the panna of all but the Buddha and his key disciples. It doesn't matter. All that matters is that the direct understanding of visible object appearing now begins to be known and understood as anatta. ... > > Sarah: "The point I'm stressing is just that there can be reflecting on cittas, cetasikas and rupas with kusala cittas or with akusala cittas, wisely or unwisely, even if the words and the text thought about/recited are 'correct'." > > Scott: Yes, this I get, but it doesn't clarify about concepts. .... Sarah: In a way, I think it does. If there is the thinking and clarifying about concepts with akusala, say lobha, rather than kusala cittas, there will never be any real clarification at such times. So I repeat the 'mantra' about understanding the present cittas now as a reminder to us all. I find it very easy to get lost in the details about dhammas - often taking the lobha for wise consideration. Metta Sarah ===== #121227 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three jokes upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/8/2011 9:37:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard, and Chris. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Chris (and Robert) - > > In a message dated 12/8/2011 1:45:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > cjforsyth1@... writes: > > Hello all, > > The problem with the `westernization' of the Mahasi method is the > confusion which has arisen from the term `noting'. > > Westerners tend to consider `noting' equivalent to `'labelling'. This was > not what was originally intended. > > `Noting' is simply meant to be understood as `noticing' or `being aware > of' â€" not `labelling'. > ---------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > It seems to me, Chris, that Ven Mahasi DOES call for labeling when for > example, he writes the following, quoted in an earlier post of mine: > > > One must walk, noting as `raising, dropping' with each step. This noting > will become easier after about two days. Then go on to noting the three > movements as described above, as `raising, pushing forward, dropping'. In the > beginning, it will suffice to note one or two movements only, thus `right > step, left step' when walking fast and `raising, dropping' when walking > slowly. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard, I agree with you that there is genuine noting going on there, and that it is a form of thinking, no doubt. However, having experienced and practiced that way, I think I understand what it is for, and how it can be useful. Ideally, one might wind up *not* noting and just being aware of the present reality, but in practice, perhaps we could say in earlier practice if not all the way through, it is really useful to have a device to see when the mind is slipping away from being actually present to what is happening in the moment. ------------------------------------------------- HCW: I agree that when the attention is weak, and particularly for beginners, this can serve as a "leash for the dog," but when this can be dispensed with it should be, for when thinking about experience is underway, the direct experiencing is not. ----------------------------------------------- There are at least several aspects of this for which I found noting a continuing useful way of practicing, though I would tend to spend time not noting as well, as I agree with you that it is a more seamless form of being aware if there is not a thought process going on at the same time: 1. Keeping track of what is actually happening at the moment. If you aren't aware of what is happening you can't note it, so it's a decent test. ------------------------------------------------ HCW: But when thinking about what's happening, it no longer is happening. Plenty of time for thought review after the fact, it seems to me. Keeping track of what's happening in the moment is a function of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and not of thinking. Thinking is always thinking *about*. ------------------------------------------------- 2. Directing the attention not just to be aware that, for instance, breathing is taking place, but to be aware of the actual sensations/tactile object as it is contacted; ------------------------------------------------ HCW: Being aware of the actual sensations is what should be happening, but it won't be on the occasion that there is involvement in conceptualizing of this. So, conscious redirecting of attention to actual experience should be done only when mindfulness has shown such attention to have lapsed. I think that care must be taken to avoid replacing the operation of awareness, i.e., sati, with thinking. Thinking about what's going on interferes. ------------------------------------------------- 3. Keeping track of where the mind goes when attention wanders in a more specific way then just noticing that you've drifted off. ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: That can be done by clear seeing far better than by thinking, IMO. ---------------------------------------------------- It may not be useful for everyone, but like counting breaths, it's an expedient training device. --------------------------------------------------- HCW: Counting breaths is useful to train attention for folks who have had little practice. It's really "early on" stuff. --------------------------------------------------- And it's a lot better than thinking you're paying attention when you're not. --------------------------------------------------- HCW: That is absolutely true!! :) ---------------------------------------------------- Best, Rob E. ==================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121228 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:37 am Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" scottduncan2 Sarah, S: "...yoniso manasikara is not necessarily referring to pariyatti. Panna with concepts as objects is not necessarily pariyatti either...in order to be pariyatti, there has to be wise considering (i.e. considering with panna) of dhammas now..." Scott: My apologies but this is still not clear. I am, unfortunately, focusing and find that there seems to be no clear explanation for what pariyatti *is.* If you find this annoying we can stop. In the above you say what it is 'not necessarily' and then invoke 'wise considering' defined as 'considering with pa~n~naa with 'dhammas' as object. It has been said that concepts can be objects (while these remain ill-defined) *and* that concepts are not necessarily 'dhammas now.' Could you say exactly what you consider pariyatti to be? Scott. #121229 From: "connie" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes nichiconn > HCW: > Counting breaths is useful to train attention for folks who have had > little practice. It's really "early on" stuff. > --------------------------------------------------- c: !!! #121230 From: "connie" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:24 am Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" nichiconn dear Dieter, KC, Howard, not to worry, Dieter - discussion, debate, dispute - they're all just different words for 'conversation' & wimps like me who prefer dainty little words like 'sharing and considering' are just hung up on our own ideas of 'peace' while we tend to ignore our own hostile reactions to what the others offer - there's where camp mentality lies. Thanks for bringing up SN 12.61 yesterday. In particular, the footnote to: (...) the noble disciple, learned in spiritual knowledge, properly and legitimately cognizes [8] just dependent co-arising, thus: ‘In the event of the being of this, there is (also) this; from the arising of this, this (also) arises. In the event of the non-being of this, there is (also) not this. From the cessation of this, this (also) ceases.' [8] This must serve as a provisional rendering of the phrase saadhuka.m yoniso manasikaroti, which has to be discussed in much more detail elsewhere (forthcoming). The expression manasi-karoti is traditionally translated as “he or she attendsâ€, while the noun form, manasi-kaara, is traditionally translated as “attentionâ€. More literally, however, manasi-karoti means “to do or make in the mano (the cognitive faculty)â€. It suggests not a merely passive turning of the attention toward some object, but a specific and fundamental kind of cognitive activity. Yoni means “womb, originâ€; such that yoniso connotes something that is rightly or legitimately related to or derived from its source or origin. Unfortunately, it is just not possible to discuss these matters in any detail in a brief footnote. I think, in the full 17 citta 'very great object' sense door cognitive process (see Table 4.1 CMA), that this is where the 'percept' ("received" by the sampaticchana citta) turns into 'appercept'. What is 'determined' (by the votthapana citta) is whether the 7 javanas ("apperception") are 'appropriate' to be called akusala, kusala or function. So then I guess it is this 'appercept' (nimitta?) that would serve as object for later mind door cognitive processes. (That's 2 or more questions). effecting radio silence now, connie > S: "...yoniso manasikara is not necessarily referring to pariyatti. #121231 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:02 am Subject: intention and sati truth_aerator Dear Nina, >N: >1) The problem is: in this way one will not understand the >anattaness of sati. There will be a surreptious idea of I am >focussing sati. >2) >N:Whereas, if one listens and considers what sati is, what the >conditions are for its arising, what the objects of sati are, >gradually understanding of its nature grows, and this in itself can >be a condition for the arising of sati. >====================================================== Is there really such a big difference between "I am focussing sati" and "I am listening and considering what sati is...". In any case it is same sort, and intentional activity. To read, study, listen one need intention to read, study or listen. Same as intention to observe what is actually happening now. The only way to learn to swim is to actually plunge into the waters and apply what one has theoretically learned before. One will never swim through mere study of the strokes until one actually swims. One will never drive if one only studies the theory of driving. And how different is the theory from real world experience... No manuals can ever completely describe experience. At best they can instruct in general things "to do". With best wishes, Alex #121232 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -Uddhacca /Restlessness moellerdieter Hi Scott, you wrote: ( D.: "...you are right, my sentence is unclear. The monkey (mind) wouldn't be able to jump(arise) from branch(object) to branch (next object, ceasing of the former), without holding to it between . This is obvious , but the issue of the note seemed to me concerning what is known, the citta (=being aware, sati) during each holding..." Scott: Citta does not 'hold' it's object after it falls away. Citta takes a new object. In the javana series, which you may be referring to, I believe it is the same object is the subject of the succession of cittas. There is no 'holding to it between.' Sati is a mental factor. It arises with citta. It takes the same object as citta. It would be whichever object is being taken by citta at a given moment - a given moment that *is* 'the holding D: 1- Citta, mind or consciousness, defined as 'that which knows or experiences' an object. Citta occurs as distinct momentary states of consciousness. 2- Cetasika, the mental factors that arise and occur along with the citta. ( http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/67.htm ) not so sure, that we disagree : citta = knowing,being aware , accompanied with the cetasika sati = (being mindful, focus on the object) We are not aware of the jumping (between ceasing and arising) , but the moment we hold to the branch (the object) , before the next 'trip'. B.T.W. I am looking forward to your comments concerning metta and the sutta (restlessness, monkey mind and D.O. relation) with Metta Dieter #121233 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -Uddhacca /Restlessness scottduncan2 Dieter, D: "... We are not aware of the jumping (between ceasing and arising) , but the moment we hold to the branch (the object), before the next 'trip'." Scott: What? That makes no sense to me. Is this like some crazy zen metaphor? Look, the thing about monkeys and branches - like it's not really about monkeys and branches, right? You do get that? Citta takes an object, then it falls away, then another citta takes another object, and so on. *Like* a monkey swings from branch to branch. You know, like a simile? The holding the branch stands for the moment where citta takes an object. Right? The whole thing is *not* about restlessness because that is an akusala mental factor. Right? D: "B.T.W. I am looking forward to your comments concerning metta and the sutta (restlessness, monkey mind and D.O. relation)" Scott: Keep waiting, muchacho. I totally ignored these because I don't care to be lectured to by you about being more friendly, no matter how indirectly you do it, nor do I seek to be taught about D.O. by you. Sticking to the topic would be good. Scott. #121234 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:32 am Subject: Clarifying pariyatti scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Annoyed but compelled to continue? Hopefully not. Stop anytime if the discussion isn't fun. I happen to like precision and so do you at times. Ordinary discussion and ordinary clarifying needn't be attributed to lobha or some other emotional thing every time. If this isn't one of those times where seeking precision is fun, or if there is no precision to be had, well, I don't know. I'll plunge ahead. There appears to be a beach-head of consensus on terms here: Me: "Pariyatti is pa~n~naa with concept as object: Yes or no?" S: "Yes." Me: "Does pa~n~naa take concepts for object or not?" Sarah: "Yes (unless paramattha dhamma is the object)." Here it is still murky: Me: "...are you referring here to pa~n~naa taking only realities as objects?" Sarah: "No, here we're discussing pariyatti - concepts of realities." Scott: In this brief statement you seem to offer that pa~n~naa at the level of pariyatti takes 'concepts of realities' as object. At times 'concepts of realities' defines 'nimitta' if I have been following recent discussion at all. And 'nimmitta' has been said to be pa~n~natti at some times and not at others. So here: Pa~n~naa takes concepts of realities as objects during moments of pariyatti - true or false (or the space between the split hair)? Me: "In 'seen or heard' are you referring to reading or listening to the Dhamma - conventional-level 'activities?'" Sarah: "Yes, but in an absolute sense, what is 'reading' or 'listening' if not the seeing of visible objects, the hearing of sounds, followed by thinking?" Scott: And, again, what is the thought - the content of thinking? I'd like you to see if you could say what 'thinking' is as opposed to 'thought' - as you understand it. I understand 'thinking' to be the reality and 'thought' to be the concept. It is never clear how these are truly differentiated. When you refer to 'absolute sense' you can include 'thinking' in that. When it is 'thinking' in the absolute sense, what is 'thought about?' Me: Jon has suggested that citta that 'thinks' creates it's object - 'thought content' - in the moment of it's arising. Sarah: "Yes, 'citta that 'thinks' creates it's object'. This is not the same as your phrase referring to ' 'thought content' in thinking'. The concept, the obect is not *in* thinking." Scott: I'd really enjoy some clarification here as it seems ongoingly muddy. I'd beg to differ with you here. How is citta-that-thinks 'creating it's own object' in the moment different from 'thought content?' I don't suggest that the concept - the content of thinking' is 'in' thinking but Jon suggests that 'thinking' and 'object of thinking' are conascent, hence together yet differentiatable. There is the thinking and there is the thought-about. I don't see how one can get around this. Me: "If so, are there like 'micro-concepts' of the momentary arising that no conscious 'awareness' consisting of wholes ever knows about?" Sarah: "Not sure I follow you. 'Of the momentary arising cittas' - yes. Many, many, many mind-door processes at this very instant, usually with no awareness. In the case of the Buddha or an arahat it would be different, of course." Scott: The suggestion is being made that what I consider to be 'thoughts' - the ideas and sentences and stuff in my head as I think all day long about this or that, including the Dhamma - are *not* what is being referred to when there is talk of pa~n~naa taking concepts (thoughts) as object. There is a suggestion that considering the Dhamma is a condition for the arising of pa~n~naa *and* that pa~n~naa has to be arising in order for that 'considering' to serve as condition for pa~n~naa. A bit circular, no? So, if these 'thoughts' are not the 'thoughts' of the citta that thinks in the moment, I'm asking if there are momentary 'thoughts' - concepts - that pass beneath the radar of our so-called 'conscious experience' - like those thoughts you are thinking right now? Me: "...How do you differentiate 'thought' described as above and 'thought' as in the so-called 'ordinary' thought that we all do consciously all the time." Sarah: "Let's not confuse thinking (cittas) with thoughts (pannatti). As for the 'ordinary' thought (pannatti??), whether there's any understanding of dhammas and concepts or not makes no difference as to what paramattha dhammas are, what pannatti are that are being 'thought about' now. I don't know what you mean by 'that we all do consciously all the time'." Scott: I mean like what is passing through your head right now as you read this - I mean 'thoughts' and, if I have to add 'conventional' to the phrase, then consider it added. I'm asking whether there are little mini-thoughts that occur to citta that thinks but that are like sub-thoughts. It seems to me that a lot of imprecision exists in all the talk about thinking and concepts and the like. Me: "The suggestion is that these apparently formed, construed strings of inner monologue about stuff are not the objects of pa~n~naa, but that the infinitessimal 'thought' in the moment is." Sarah: "Sorry, not following you. All that matters now is the direct understanding of the realities appearing, so instead of discussing thoughts and pannatti, more helpful to consider and discuss more about the presently appearing paramattha dhammas. Apologies if I misunderstand you." Scott: It's like a reflex, making statements about understanding now. In wanting to clarify what is being said - and it really is being said - about concepts, nimitta, pa~n~naa at the level of pariyatti, whatever, I am not disputing that 'all that matters now is the direct understanding of the realities appearing.' In fact, the 'mantra' as you call it is not relevant because it is pariyatti that I'm wanting to clarify. Is pariyatti 'the direct understanding of realities appearing?' Does pariyatti not matter? Me: "And, again, what is the object of pa~n~naa at the level of pariyatti during these 'multiple mind-door processes?' Does pa~n~naa take a 'complete thought' as object? If there is a momentary entity known as 'thought' then what is it exactly?" Sarah: "v-i-s-i-b-l-e o-b-j-e-c-t ... an example of the multiple concepts thought about by multiple mind-door processes before there is any 'complete thought' such as 'visible object'. We can't say how many mind-door processes are involved or in which ones panna can arise at the pariyatti level. All this is way beyond the panna of all but the Buddha and his key disciples. It doesn't matter. All that matters is that the direct understanding of visible object appearing now begins to be known and understood as anatta." Me: "Yes, this I get, but it doesn't clarify about concepts." Sarah: "In a way, I think it does. If there is the thinking and clarifying about concepts with akusala, say lobha, rather than kusala cittas, there will never be any real clarification at such times. So I repeat the 'mantra' about understanding the present cittas now as a reminder to us all. I find it very easy to get lost in the details about dhammas - often taking the lobha for wise consideration." Scott: Okay, this is contentious. What is pariyatti? Is it 'thinking?' Is it 'clarifying?' Are 'concepts' the objects of thinking? Since we agreed that pariyatti is pa~n~naa with concept as object, do you equatet this with kusala 'thinking?' Are you suggesting that my line of questioning is me being lost in details about dhammas because of lobha? If so, I'd counter with, it is very easy to get lost in wrong view if one doesn't diligently seek to be clear about details about the Dhamma. Don't forget to stop at any time. Scott. #121235 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes scottduncan2 Deiter, Christine, Howard, Rob E., D: "...B.T.W. slow movements are needed to bring automated actions/habits back to awareness..." Scott: ! Scott. #121236 From: "philip" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes philofillet Hi all > > D: "...B.T.W. slow movements are needed to bring automated actions/habits back to awareness... There was a meditator named Patty who moved slow as an expident fo sati She spent an hour in the retreat center shower It drove the other yogis "batty...batty..." Phil #121237 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:45 am Subject: How many Abhidhamma scholars does it take to change a light bulb? truth_aerator "How many Abhidhamma scholars does it take to change a light bulb? There are 20W light bulbs, 40W light bulbs, 80W light bulbs, 100W… 200W…There are 6V light bulbs, 12V light bulbs, 120V light bulbs, 240V light bulbs…There are incandescent bulbs, fluorescent bulbs… There are clear light bulbs, pearled light bulbs, colored light bulbs… There are screw-in light bulbs, bayonet light bulbs…There are 20W light bulbs that are 6V, there are 20W light bulbs that are 12V… 120V… 240V…There are 40W light bulbs that are 6V… 240V…80W… 100W… 200W… There are 20W light bulbs that are 6V incandescent…There are 200W light bulbs that are 240V, florescent, colored, and bayonet." =============================================================== "How many Buddhist scholars does it take to change a light bulb? An internationally respected committee of academics, after deliberating all night, conclusively failed to agree on the meaning of the word `light bulb'. Meanwhile, the sun came up." Some jokes that I've found. With best wishes, Alex #121238 From: "philip" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes philofillet Hi again Rewrite! > It drove the other yogis "batty...batty..." It made the other yogis note "batty.batty..." Phil #121239 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:07 am Subject: Re: How many Abhidhamma scholars does it take to change a light bulb? scottduncan2 Alex, A: "...There are 20W light bulbs, 40W light bulbs, 80W light bulbs, 100W 200W..." Scott: Was there a reason that you left out 60 watt light bulbs? These are quite common and should have been included in the list. And I'm not sure there are 80 watt bulbs. I'm thinking that this is likely either a typo or a Mahayana notion. The commentaries suggest that 'while illumination is the characteristic of all light bulbs, whether the light is that of the stars or of the moon or of the sun is dependent on wattage and does not reside in the electricity alone.' Scott. #121240 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Howard, Chris, Rob E., > > R: "Howard, I agree with you that there is genuine noting going on there, and that it is a form of thinking, no doubt. However, having experienced and practiced that way, I think I understand what it is for, and how it can be useful..." > > Scott: Conversations like this, about 'practice,' are patently circular - a haze of words about nothing in particular. I read them and can find absolutely nothing of substance. The Emperor's Clothes for sure. Not any different than doctors talking about which scalpel to use, or housewives [or husbands] discussing which setting is best to make the toast come out right. If you don't understand what "noting" means or what "thinking" means, or how paying attention to something can be enhanced by consciously acknowledging it as it happens, then what can I say? However there's nothing foggy or circular about it. It's very specific and technical. Try this: if I said: "How to count Volkswagons: Keep your eyes on the road, and when you see a car come by that has the shape of a bug, make a note of it and say 'That's a Volkswagon.' Then when you see another one do the same thing. In that way you can keep track of all the Volkswagons that go by" would you say that was "about nothing in particular and that it was 'a haze of words?' The noting technique for keeping track of the breath is not any less specific or hazier or vaguer than that; nor is it about nothing in particular either; it's about following the breath using mental noting - very specific. So I think it's your attention that's foggy and circular, not the description. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121241 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:42 am Subject: Re: How many Abhidhamma scholars does it take to change a light bulb? kenhowardau Hi Alex, ----- > A: "How many Abhidhamma scholars does it take to change a light bulb? There are 20W light bulbs, 40W light bulbs, 80W light bulbs, 100W… 200W…There are 6V light bulbs, 12V light bulbs, 120V light bulbs, 240V light bulbs…There are incandescent bulbs, fluorescent bulbs… There are clear light bulbs, pearled light bulbs, colored light bulbs… There are screw-in light bulbs, bayonet light bulbs…There are 20W light bulbs that are 6V, there are 20W light bulbs that are 12V… 120V… 240V…There are 40W light bulbs that are 6V… 240V…80W… 100W… 200W… There are 20W light bulbs that are 6V incandescent…There are 200W light bulbs that are 240V, florescent, colored, and bayonet." ----- KH: That gives us a good picture of what Abhidhamma scholars call "an ocean of concepts." If just one term - light bulb - can involve so many concepts, imagine how vast the entire ocean of concepts must be. And we worldlings are lost in it! This is not a laughing matter! ----------------------- > A: "How many Buddhist scholars does it take to change a light bulb? An internationally respected committee of academics, after deliberating all night, conclusively failed to agree on the meaning of the word `light bulb'. Meanwhile, the sun came up." ---------------------- KH: Very good! But while the non Abhidhamma-scholar was writing that joke, the Abhidhamma scholar had already changed the light bulb and returned to his book. His Abhidhamma studies are about conditioned dhammas: they are not about light bulbs and other concepts. He doesn't confuse the two. He doesn't confuse the conceptual world with the real world. Ken H #121242 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes epsteinrob Uh....hi, Connie... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Good one, Rob! "Expedient" LOLOL! > connie ? Talking about meditation gets the cutest reactions from you guys...Not! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - > > It may not be useful for everyone, but like counting breaths, it's an expedient training device. And it's a lot better than thinking you're paying attention when you're not. > > > #121243 From: Kapila Jeewaka Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) kapilajeewak... dear Dhamma can 'I know the meaning Khanda and Upadanakkhanda? with metta Sumedaloka W. ________________________________ From: Nina van Gorkom <.....> > D: thanks for your kind offer, Nina . > I think more base knowledge of Abhidhamma would be good, before > studying Kh Sujin's book. > Perhaps we could discuss her writings under the topic of Parami at > a later occasion (when we have gone through the cetasikas.. ) (?) ----- N: Anything you like to do is good. <...> #121244 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes scottduncan2 Rob E., Couldn't stop yourself, eh? R: "Not any different than doctors talking about which scalpel to use, or housewives [or husbands] discussing which setting is best to make the toast come out right. If you don't understand what 'noting' means or what 'thinking' means, or how paying attention to something can be enhanced by consciously acknowledging it as it happens, then what can I say?" Scott: Judging by what practitioners say about practice, you can say quite a bit. Look, surgery is technical, sure, but it is not the Dhamma. There are literally different scalpels. The analogy is a poor one - unless you are suggesting that this 'practice' is on par with these other things, in which case it's like golfing or something. You 'practice' guys are like a bunch of wine connoisseurs pretending that the swill actually is differentiatable. I'm not sure how I'm not being clear: Talk about practice is absolute nonsense because none of you actually have a clue what you are talking about *and* you talk a lot about it. R: "However there's nothing foggy or circular about it. It's very specific and technical. Try this: if I said: 'How to count Volkswagons: Keep your eyes on the road, and when you see a car come by that has the shape of a bug, make a note of it and say 'That's a Volkswagon.' Then when you see another one do the same thing. In that way you can keep track of all the Volkswagons that go by' would you say that was 'about nothing in particular and that it was 'a haze of words?' Scott: I'd say that counting Volkswagens and 'practice' are in the same league - ordinary activities - except that you guys try to elevate the 'practice' nonsense to a level of sense and mysticism and utility that it simply doesn't have. I'm saying that it is so clear reading you guys that none of you know what you are talking about. R: "The noting technique for keeping track of the breath is not any less specific or hazier or vaguer than that; nor is it about nothing in particular either; it's about following the breath using mental noting - very specific. So I think it's your attention that's foggy and circular, not the description." Scott: Rob, I think that the conversations practitioners have ad nauseum about their practice are absolutely ridiculous. It is how they appear to me. You are all talking as if you know what you are talking about. I just don't think that any of you do. It's the blind leading the blind. You can't see it because you're all in the middle of the conversations and think you know what you're talking about. If you could step back and really take a look, you'd see the same thing. It's like two guys high on weed and having the most amazing conversation ever and so they tape-record it. When neither of them are high, and they listen to the conversation, they're like, 'this is all senseless drivel' - it just seemed profound at the time. There's an analogy for you. There are plenty of forums around for the 'unmolested' discussion of practice by practitioners. If you guys like to do that here, I'll read and comment. Scott. #121245 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes kenhowardau Hi Phil, No need to spell it out; we got it the first time. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi again > > Rewrite! > > > It drove the other yogis "batty...batty..." > > It made the other yogis note "batty.batty..." > > > Phil > KH: Got it . . . got it. #121246 From: "philip" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes philofillet Hi Ken H > No need to spell it out; we got it the first time. :-) I noted "don't do it....don't do it..." but my fingers didn't listen. See, they aren't into Mahasi. Well, they used to be, but now they're into the Thanissaro Bhikkhu breathe-tgrough-your-hands thing. Phil p.s he does actually teach that...and the scary thing is it works! #121247 From: "philip" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) philofillet Hi Sumedaloka > can 'I know the meaning Khanda and Upadanakkhanda? > with metta If I understand correctly, there are two meanings, any khanda that is the object of clinging now, or all khandas that are the result of clinging. So even the arahat has upadanakkhanda in the second sense. Let's see if someone confirms that explanation. Phil > > > > > > ________________________________ > #121248 From: "philip" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) philofillet Hi again > > If I understand correctly, there are two meanings, any khanda that is the object of clinging now, or all khandas that are the result of clinging. So even the arahat has upadanakkhanda in the second sense. Let's see if someone confirms that explanation. My explanation was just for upadanakkhanda, assuming you know what khanda means.... Phil #121249 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > > R: "...Pannatti arise with citta only and are a creation of citta..." > > > > Scott: I think so. They are the objects of thinking - citta arising in a series. > ... > Sarah: Yes, objects of thinking, "a creation of citta", but NOT "pannatti arise with citta" Can you give me a better idea of how pannatti are actually created? If a single citta arises and "creates" the concept, do a series of cittas arise in a group formation, one at a time, to form the illusion of the concept? How does it take place? It can't remain after the citta falls away, since it is merely a creation and has no independent existence, yet the illusion is created over a number of cittas that the pannatti have this "timeless" existence that is immutable to the changes from moment to moment. Can you give me an idea of how this occurs? Also, this has raised the question for me of concept through language. It obviously takes the time of many, many cittas to think a thought in language or to say or hear and comprehend a full sentence. How is the conceptual understanding of a sentence created through so many arising and falling cittas? I can't grasp how that is possible using the "single citta" understanding of consciousness? It can't be that a number of cittas raise the concept of a single word, then the next group forms the next word, etc., then somehow the accumulations piece together the full semantic understanding of the sentence as a whole. So how can meaningful language even take place? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #121250 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 8-dec-2011, om 20:43 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > If done correctly there is not a sense of separate thinking, but > > of the thought "touching the object" as it is put, and being part > > of awareness, rather than having "separate thinking" arise. I > > haven't used noting all the time, but I was trained with it, and I > > think it's a positive tool for focusing awareness. > ------ > N: The problem is: in this way one will not understand the anattaness > of sati. There will be a surreptious idea of I am focussing sati. > Whereas, if one listens and considers what sati is, what the > conditions are for its arising, what the objects of sati are, > gradually understanding of its nature grows, and this in itself can > be a condition for the arising of sati. It can arise unexpectantly, > even in the midst of being busy or being engaged with something. One > can learn that it works in its own way. The whole of the Abhidhamma > has one purpose: understanding anattaness of realities. There has to > be detachment from all realities also from sati. I appreciate your description of how sati can be understood and arise. The question of when one can "sit" as described by the Buddha and have many moments of sati arise is a difficult one. Whether practice necessarily entails self-view or whether it can be done without such a view is also an issue that is contentious. I do especially appreciate your reminder of anatta being the main point of everything. That is good to remember. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #121251 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes epsteinrob Hi Connie. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > > > HCW: > > Counting breaths is useful to train attention for folks who have had > > little practice. It's really "early on" stuff. > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > c: !!! ? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - #121252 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Scott: Rob, I think that the conversations practitioners have ad nauseum about their practice are absolutely ridiculous. It is how they appear to me. You are all talking as if you know what you are talking about. I just don't think that any of you do. It's the blind leading the blind. You can't see it because you're all in the middle of the conversations and think you know what you're talking about. If you could step back and really take a look, you'd see the same thing. Any technical discussion seems like nonsense to someone who's not involved or thinks the whole subject is stupid. It reflects your biased view as much as anything else. > It's like two guys high on weed and having the most amazing conversation ever and so they tape-record it. When neither of them are high, and they listen to the conversation, they're like, 'this is all senseless drivel' - it just seemed profound at the time. There's an analogy for you. Sure, it's an analogy, and it reflects your view of the stupidity of meditation, nothing more. Fine. > There are plenty of forums around for the 'unmolested' discussion of practice by practitioners. If you guys like to do that here, I'll read and comment. We only started talking about it because the subject happened to come up. It's just another topic that is very pertinent to some Buddhists; doesn't have to be to you. So what? You're so allergic to the subject that you can't hear a hint of it without breaking out in hives and having a seizure. So much for detachment. Don't worry; we're not trying to turn dsg into a meditation forum, although it is a prominent subject in the Visudhimagga and suttas and shouldn't be off limits; but it would be nice if you all would not attack like a horde of angry bees every time the subject happens to come up for a moment. It's not going to infect you. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121253 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > 3. Keeping track of where the mind goes when attention wanders in a more > specific way then just noticing that you've drifted off. > ----------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > That can be done by clear seeing far better than by thinking, IMO. > ---------------------------------------------------- I take your points, and think they are very worthy of consideration. Maybe we can chat about this off-list sometime. I'm going to curtail the technical aspect of this conversation for now before Scott and a few others wind up in the hospital. I don't want to cause undue suffering by getting the dreaded imaginary meditation goo all over anyone who is terrified by it. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121254 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "Any technical discussion..." Scott: Good one, thanks. Scott. #121255 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes scottduncan2 Rob E., Howard, R: "...Maybe we can chat about this off-list sometime..." Scott: Cool. Scott. #121256 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:08 am Subject: Re: Clarifying pariyatti epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Me: "Pariyatti is pa~n~naa with concept as object: Yes or no?" ... > Scott: In this brief statement you seem to offer that pa~n~naa at the level of pariyatti takes 'concepts of realities' as object. At times 'concepts of realities' defines 'nimitta' if I have been following recent discussion at all. And 'nimmitta' has been said to be pa~n~natti at some times and not at others. So here: Pa~n~naa takes concepts of realities as objects during moments of pariyatti - true or false (or the space between the split hair)? ... > I understand 'thinking' to be the reality and 'thought' to be the concept. It is never clear how these are truly differentiated. When you refer to 'absolute sense' you can include 'thinking' in that. When it is 'thinking' in the absolute sense, what is 'thought about?' ... > Me: "If so, are there like 'micro-concepts' of the momentary arising that no conscious 'awareness' consisting of wholes ever knows about?" ... > Scott: The suggestion is being made that what I consider to be 'thoughts' - the ideas and sentences and stuff in my head as I think all day long about this or that, including the Dhamma - are *not* what is being referred to when there is talk of pa~n~naa taking concepts (thoughts) as object. ...So, if these 'thoughts' are not the 'thoughts' of the citta that thinks in the moment, I'm asking if there are momentary 'thoughts' - concepts ...I'm asking whether there are little mini-thoughts that occur to citta that thinks but that are like sub-thoughts. It seems to me that a lot of imprecision exists in all the talk about thinking and concepts and the like. > > Me: "The suggestion is that these apparently formed, construed strings of inner monologue about stuff are not the objects of pa~n~naa, but that the infinitessimal 'thought' in the moment is." ...Does pa~n~naa take a 'complete thought' as object? If there is a momentary entity known as 'thought' then what is it exactly?" Well it looks like we've found a place where you and I are very unified. I think you are asking all the right questions when it comes to how concept can be entertained or created by citta. There is no bridge presented so far that bridges the gap between momentary cittas and the extended existence of thoughts/language/images over a longer period of time and how they are created. My sense from all that has been discussed is that there is not a good understanding of this issue at all, and that how pannatti comes to exist and what its mode of existence is is simply not described in any detail. Like you, I look forward to any explanation as to how a sentence that makes sense, a complete thought that takes several seconds to think from beginning to end, or how any concept that is not a single-moment phenomenon can be created by a rapid-fire succession of cittas. I'm sure there is an explanation, but so far I have no idea what it is. I am going to hunt around and see if I can find anything. So far, not much luck. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #121257 From: "connie" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:10 pm Subject: three jokes nichiconn Dear Jokers, robE: Try this: if I said: "How to count Volkswagons: Keep your eyes on the road, and when you see a car come by that has the shape of a bug, make a note of it and say 'That's a Volkswagon.' Then when you see another one do the same thing. In that way you can keep track of all the Volkswagons that go by" would you say that was "about nothing in particular and that it was 'a haze of words?' The noting technique for keeping track of the breath is not any less specific or hazier or vaguer than that; nor is it about nothing in particular either; it's about following the breath using mental noting - very specific. connie: First, you use the sadly self-serving 'expedient means' phrase and now you drive a VW deeper into unfortunate ground! Please note: it's VolkswagEn and the Beetle "Bug" is just 1 of many - Amaroc, Iroc, Scirocco, CC / R32 / Rabbit / Golf / GTI, Passat, Touareg, Tiguan, Jetta, Eos, Phaeton, Karmann Ghia, the beloved old-school ("hippie") Vans - plain and the campier Westphalia. Plus I don't know what all & a lot of concept models... das auto! So, yeah, hazing's called for, sorry. > HCW: > Counting breaths is useful to train attention for folks who have had > little practice. It's really "early on" stuff. > --------------------------------------------------- c: !!! I'm still pretty much in shock over that... and surprised that you'd even wonder about it! What could possibly be "early on" about breath meditation? Unless of course, you guys are ignoring the parts of the Visuddhimagga that pretty much come right out and say "don't try this at home: it's not for the many". I pretty much sound like a broken record when it comes to this V(ism)W(riting) because it's always "Go back to the beginning... this book was written for/about Panditas, not puthus". You might want to reconsider just what the adverse effects coming into contact with some kinds of "meditation goo" / ill advised (poorly understood) "expedient means" might be and whether there aren't some remedies or preventions for it. I sincerely hope you're not infected by the "Secrets of Happiness" Bug described in #119188... and if you think I'm just dismissively making fun of this "expert", Google it and listen for yourself. I was fairly verbatim, sorry to say. But yeah, if you want to run off-list and play "you show me yours and I'll show you mine", go for it. Otherwise, I'd like to see you bring it on and talk about the jhana factors and jhana cittas and all that groovy-cool stuff. Just please, "strive for precision in your speech". thanks, connie ps Phil, it's "three jokes", so you're over your limit. Do we need to appoint a designated poster for you? #121258 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:58 am Subject: Today is Unduwap Poya Day! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to be Real Buddhist through Observance? Unduwap Poya is this Fullmoon day of December which celebrates 2 events: 1: The arrival of Nun Theri Sanghamitta , sister of Arahat Mahinda , from India in the 3rd century B.C. establishing the Order of Nuns. 2: The arrival at Anuradhapura of a sapling of the sacred Bodhi-tree at Buddhagaya, brought to Sri Lanka by Arahat Theri Sanghamitta . Arahat Theri Sanghamitta arrives w. tree. This day is designated Sanghamitta Day. Nowadays Dasasil Matas; ten-precept nuns, take an active part in making these celebrations. <...> The over 2000 years old Bodhi Tree in Ceylon. Please notice the Lay Buddhist wear all white clothes, which was classic at Buddha’s time! On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges & undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in/to this world! So is the start towards Nibbâna: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha / observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps even the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish a recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town & country to me or join here . A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The Modern Community of Buddha's Disciples: Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #121259 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:36 pm Subject: Re: three jokes scottduncan2 connie, And all, my computer is going mammaries up, so I may be sporadic - don't hurt yourselves in celebtation. connie: First, you use the sadly self-serving 'expedient means' phrase and now you drive a VW deeper into unfortunate ground! Please note: it's VolkswagEn and the Beetle "Bug" is just 1 of many - Amaroc, Iroc, Scirocco, CC / R32 / Rabbit / Golf / GTI, Passat, Touareg, Tiguan, Jetta, Eos, Phaeton, Karmann Ghia, the beloved old-school ("hippie") Vans - plain and the campier Westphalia. Plus I don't know what all & a lot of concept models... das auto! So, yeah, hazing's called for, sorry. Scott: Agreed. Hazy indeed. c: "I'm still pretty much in shock over that... and surprised that you'd even wonder about it! What could possibly be 'early on' about breath meditation? Unless of course, you guys are ignoring the parts of the Visuddhimagga that pretty much come right out and say 'don't try this at home: it's not for the many'. I pretty much sound like a broken record when it comes to this V(ism)W(riting) because it's always 'Go back to the beginning... this book was written for/about Panditas, not puthus'. You might want to reconsider just what the adverse effects coming into contact with some kinds of 'meditation goo' / ill advised (poorly understood) 'expedient means' might be and whether there aren't some remedies or preventions for it." Scott: Exactly. Well said. Weed musings. c: "...Otherwise, I'd like to see you bring it on and talk about the jhana factors and jhana cittas and all that groovy-cool stuff. Just please, 'strive for precision in your speech'." Scott: Agreed. No precision at all. Just nonsense. I'll have to get my stupid computer fixed now. Bye. Scott. #121260 From: "philip" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:11 pm Subject: Re: Three jokes philofillet Hi Rob E > > I listened to Mahasi related talks a lot, and there is a lot of good Abhidhamma content. The slow moving thing is an unfortunate perversion of their reading of the commentary to the satipatthana sutta, I guess, in which - as you know - there are detailed references to the paramattha processes involved in walking, etc. They try to capture it through intentional practice. > > Well, as you know, we generally disagree about intentional practice. So I wouldn't say this is any different than the same argument regarding meditation in general. Ph: Sorry, can't read your whole post, but I'll just offer the following to you, for your perusal. They are Goenka devotee talking in a casual way about their attainments. The woman talks about getting stream entry on the 9th day of her first retret, the guy talks about "hitting A&P in a pretty spectacular fashion on the 4th day of my first retreat." At first I thought he robbed a supermarket, but it turns out that is an abbreviation for the advanced vipassanna-nana of knowledge of arising and passing away. Who is to say they didn't, well, I leave that up to you as an intellgent fellow who respects the Dhamma to decide for yourself. So let's say they are just extreme cases, but the fact that they are able to leave retreats believing that points at something very strange in the Goenka organization. Any number of Goenka followers will tell us no, it's not like that, but spend some time Googling, if you want to, and perhaps your suspicions will begin to mount, or not. Whatever. But for now you are still free, as I said before, since you are a self-confessed "lousy meditator" you are for now at least not in danger of being fooled into believing you are actually following the path when you meditate with attainments in mind. http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/210675\ 8;jsessionid=2241B21260C5F5561274402D2DC3A699 I made fun of Mahashi because of the slow-walking, excessive noting thing, but it's probably Goenka that is the biggest perversion at work now in Theravada. But you can look into it a bit if you want, and ask yourself who deeply that perversion permeates what is called "meditation" in this day and age. I'll leave it there. Phil p.s I saw you make a mention of Scott's equanimity, but my God, Rob E, how did this thread start? Because you couldn't let that "slow-mo spoon lifter" comment of mine pass, so here we are covered in joke juice. But thank you, I like writing them, more to come! #121261 From: "philip" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Sarah > > Ph: Well, my point is what I am hearing again and again that it is seeing and visible object, hearing and sound etc where understanding can be developed hear and now. > .... > S: These are examples. Any dhammas appearing now. Ph: There is a consistent emphasis on seeing and visible object, hearing and sound, I don't think it is that I am hearing incorrectly, I think A. Sujin places on emphasis in this way, and I cannot easily overlook the several talks I heard in which she made it clear that until there is knowing nama from rupa (rupa as that which knows nothing, or nama that knows, without shape or form, the dark citta) any awareness of cetasikas will be all about my lobha, my dosa, it will be just thinking. That makes sense to me. I guess we will have to a.t.d on that! Thanks. Phil #121262 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:23 pm Subject: Re: Clarifying pariyatti sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Rob E & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Me: "Pariyatti is pa~n~naa with concept as object: Yes or no?" > > S: "Yes." > > Me: "Does pa~n~naa take concepts for object or not?" > > Sarah: "Yes (unless paramattha dhamma is the object)." > > Here it is still murky: > > Me: "...are you referring here to pa~n~naa taking only realities as objects?" > > Sarah: "No, here we're discussing pariyatti - concepts of realities." > > Scott: In this brief statement you seem to offer that pa~n~naa at the level of pariyatti takes 'concepts of realities' as object. ..... Sarah: Yes ...... ---- [>Scott: At times 'concepts of realities' defines 'nimitta' if I have been following recent discussion at all. And 'nimmitta' has been said to be pa~n~natti at some times and not at others. ..... Sarah: this is another discussion. I haven't said either of the above, so I'll leave them.] .... > Scott: And, again, what is the thought - the content of thinking? I'd like you to see if you could say what 'thinking' is as opposed to 'thought' - as you understand it. .... Sarah: As I use the terms, thinking refers to particular kinds of cittas in the mind door processes. Thought refers to concept, idea that is thought about by thinking. ... > > I understand 'thinking' to be the reality and 'thought' to be the concept. It is never clear how these are truly differentiated. When you refer to 'absolute sense' you can include 'thinking' in that. When it is 'thinking' in the absolute sense, what is 'thought about?' .... Sarah: This is a really important point to clarify. It is only by the direct understanding (now) of thinking as a reality that such differentiation becomes clear. When there is understanding of thinking, no question, no doubt about what concept is. This is why it's stressed that it's only by understanding the realities, that the distinction between realities and concepts is known. When it is " 'thinking' in the absolute sense," what is thought about can be anything at all. This is why the concepts are not important - whether it's thinking about 'apple', 'visible object' or 'purple elephant' the reality to be known is always the thinking, not the concept. .... > > Me: Jon has suggested that citta that 'thinks' creates it's object - 'thought content' - in the moment of it's arising. > > Sarah: "Yes, 'citta that 'thinks' creates it's object'. This is not the same as your phrase referring to ' 'thought content' in thinking'. The concept, the object is not *in* thinking." > > Scott: I'd really enjoy some clarification here as it seems ongoingly muddy. I'd beg to differ with you here. How is citta-that-thinks 'creating it's own object' in the moment different from 'thought content?' I don't suggest that the concept - the content of thinking' is 'in' thinking but Jon suggests that 'thinking' and 'object of thinking' are conascent, hence together yet differentiatable. There is the thinking and there is the thought-about. I don't see how one can get around this. .... Sarah: There is the thinking. The "thought about" is imagined or thought about only. It doesn't exist. It is not *in* the thinking. I don't think Jon suggested " 'thinking' and 'object of thinking' are *conascent*". At a moment of thinking, that thinking 'creates', 'imagines' an idea. Only the reality can be known. From the 'Atthasalini', Analysis of Terms (PTS transl). "How is consciousness capable of producing a variety or diversity of effects in action? There is no art in the world more variegated than the art of painting. In painting, the painter's masterpiece is more artistic than the rest of his pictures. An artistic design occurs to the painters of masterpieces that such and such pictures should be drawn in such and such a way. "Through this artistic design there arise operations of the mind (or artistic operations) accomplishing such things as sketching the outline, putting on the paint, touching up, and embellishing... Thus all classes of arts in the world, specific or generic, are achieved by the mind. And owing to its capacity thus to produce a variety or diversity of effects in action, the mind, which achieves all these arts, is itself artistic like the arts themselves. Nay, it is even more artistic than the art itself, because the latter cannot execute every design perfectly." Metta Sarah ==== #121263 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Ph: Well, my point is what I am hearing again and again that it is seeing and visible object, hearing and sound etc where understanding can be developed hear and now. > > .... > > S: These are examples. Any dhammas appearing now. > > Ph: There is a consistent emphasis on seeing and visible object, hearing and sound, I don't think it is that I am hearing incorrectly, I think A. Sujin places on emphasis in this way, .... Sarah: If seeing, v.o., hearing and sound which are all so very, very often arising - even now as we read - are not understood, then I think we can be pretty sure that no dhammas are really understood. It is also on account of what is seen and heard that most of the proliferating and thinking in a day occurs - completely lost in the signs and details most of the time without any awareness. Of the senses, the Buddha always starts with the eye-door first for this reason. .... >and I cannot easily overlook the several talks I heard in which she made it clear that until there is knowing nama from rupa (rupa as that which knows nothing, or nama that knows, without shape or form, the dark citta) any awareness of cetasikas will be all about my lobha, my dosa, it will be just thinking. That makes sense to me. I guess we will have to a.t.d on that! ... S: Yes - without understanding and distinguishing nama from rupa, then any dhammas are bound to be taken for atta. So, if there is not a beginning of understanding the dhamma that appears now - whether that be the lobha, the seeing, the hardness, whatever dhamma - there will never be a beginning of understanding what nama is or what rupa is, let alone the distinction. It all comes back to the dhamma now appearing - that's all. Metta Sarah p.s just worked out the "a.t.d" - no prob! ===== #121264 From: "philip" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Sarah > > > > Every time you jeer and make fun of other Buddhists you are creating akusala kamma patha on the level of speech. Just being aware of that may change your behavior. > > > > > > > > > > > Ph: I'm aware of it right now and I don't care. I'm enjoying it. > .... > S: "I don't care". Any hiri and ottappa at such times? Ph: Ah, but there could have been a moment of right understanding. As you know, akusala can be object of understanding. I was observing my akusala at that moment, it could be said, and that would be kusala. If there is kusala, there would have been hiri and otappa, just for that brief moment. In any case, I was talking about hiri and otappa developing in general. I could write pages and pages about situations in daily life in which it seems that hiri and otappa are developing. In fact, as I wrote in the other post, I don't think there is actually awareness of the characteristics of hiri and otappa for us, just thinking based on situations. >>>The reason I> ask is that if there isn't the development of hiri and ottappa with regard to seemingly inconsequential bits of fun during the day, then when there are opportunities for more major kinds of harming, there is also likely to be less concern, surely? Ph: DSG is quite important in my life, but it is still a small part of my daily life, a lot of confidence that kusala is developing in daily life. I still don't know why there are conditions for such strong aversion towards people I disagree with about Dhamma. But it's been that way for my entire time at DSG (since 2004) so it would be unwise to expect that to change any day soon, or for equanimity to develop suddenly in a way that prevents it (along with hiri and otappa.) Always the possibility that a good long break from DSG will actually happen, writing these jokes lately reminds me how much fun writing can be. I always write kind of serious fiction, friends have told me I should make more use of my sense of humour. A long sabbatical from DSG is not out of the question at some point. Fow now, please be as patient and understanding of my bad behaviour as possible, thanks! Phil #121265 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Ph: Ah, but there could have been a moment of right understanding. As you know, akusala can be object of understanding. I was observing my akusala at that moment, it could be said, and that would be kusala. If there is kusala, there would have been hiri and otappa, just for that brief moment. .... S: Like now!! ... >Fow now, please be as patient and understanding of my bad behaviour as possible, thanks! ... S: No prob Phil! I was just giving a dhamma reminder for your consideration as we've discussed before how good friends remind one to abstain from harmful behaviour:-) Btw, I thought the light Patty limerick was the best of your jokes - very funny, also Alex's light-bulb (re-) quote and the funniest of all was Scott's dead-pan reply to it! Scott, very witty indeed:-) Metta Sarah ===== #121266 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) sarahprocter... HI Sumedaloka & Phil, Welcome to DSG, Sumedaloka. Perhaps you could introduce yourself a little here. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > can 'I know the meaning Khanda and Upadanakkhanda? > > with metta > >P: If I understand correctly, there are two meanings, any khanda that is the object of clinging now, or all khandas that are the result of clinging. So even the arahat has upadanakkhanda in the second sense. Let's see if someone confirms that explanation. .... Sarah: The two meanings of upadana khandha are: a) rupa conditioned by clinging, i.e. kammaja rupa, and b) objects of clinging as you mention. The khandhas of the arahat may be upadana khandha for others, even the Buddha's khandhas were clung to by his followers. To elaborate on the second meaning and the distinction between 'khandha' and 'upadana khandha', this is what I wrote before on the topic: >Sarah: All khandhas arise and fall away, but are not necessarily the object of upadana (clinging). Only the dhamma which is the object of upadana (clinging) is upadana khandha at that moment, because it arises and falls away. It can't be upadana khandha when it is not clung to, eg eye-base whilst sleeping is not the object of clinging. With regard to the definition of dukkha, given as "sankhittena pa~ncupaadaanakhandhaa dukkhaa" (the five factors of attachment are suffering), this therefore refers, as I understand it, to the dhamma which is the object of clinging now. So when it is the moment of realization and the full penetration of the rising and falling away of dhammas, the object must be one which is usually the object of upadana (clinging). ..... Vism X1V, 214 (~Naa.namoli translation): "As to distinction: as to distinction between aggregates and aggregates-as-objects-of-clinging. But what is the distinction between them? Firstly, aggregates is said without distinguishing. Aggregates [as objects] of clinging is said distinguishing those that are subject to cankers and are liable to clingings, according as it is said: 'Bhikkhus, I shall teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging. Listen.....Any kind of materiality whatever....is called the materiality aggregate.......feeling...perception....formations...consciousness....consciousn\ \ ess aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates. "And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging? Any kind of materiality whatever.............consciousness whatever....far or near, that is subject to cankers and liable to clingings: this is called the consciousness aggregate [as object] of clinging. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging' (S iii,47)" *** #121267 From: "philip" Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) philofillet Hi Sarah > The two meanings of upadana khandha are: a) rupa conditioned by clinging, i.e. kammaja rupa, and b) objects of clinging as you mention. > > The khandhas of the arahat may be upadana khandha for others, even the Buddha's khandhas were clung to by his followers. Thanks. Don't we also say the khandas of the arahat are upadana khanda in the sense of a) above in that his eye sense rupa, for example, are kammaja rupa? Phil #121268 From: "philip" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Sarah > If there is kusala, there would have been hiri and otappa, just for that brief moment. > .... > S: Like now!! Like now, this moment. If there were conditions to be mindful at all moments, all troubles would be over. Alas, mindfulness can't be accomplished by lobha, so not so easy, there must be alobha with all moments of kusala. That is the catch. But for now we can say a lot of troubles are gone, but there is still a lot of lobha involved in thinking about that. Lobha is the tricky master. Phil #121269 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three jokes upasaka_howard Very nice, Scott. /:-( In a message dated 12/9/2011 7:03:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Rob E., Howard, R: "...Maybe we can chat about this off-list sometime..." Scott: Cool. Scott. #121270 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > The two meanings of upadana khandha are: a) rupa conditioned by clinging, i.e. kammaja rupa, and b) objects of clinging as you mention. > > > > The khandhas of the arahat may be upadana khandha for others, even the Buddha's khandhas were clung to by his followers. > > > Thanks. Don't we also say the khandas of the arahat are upadana khanda in the sense of a) above in that his eye sense rupa, for example, are kammaja rupa? ... S: Yes, any kammaja rupas are upadana khandha under this meaning. Metta Sarah ===== #121271 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:22 am Subject: "everything is in God's hands" truth_aerator Hello RobertE, KenO, all, >RE:We "blame" conditions and >accumulations for our actions, >================================================ "The devil made me do it" and "everything is in God's hands". It seems that excuse and justification for wrong behavior with "I can't do anything about this akusala" is itself a cause that accumulates for more akusala to arise later on. With best wishes, Alex #121272 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] three jokes upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 12/9/2011 9:11:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: I'm still pretty much in shock over that... and surprised that you'd even wonder about it! What could possibly be "early on" about breath meditation? Unless of course, you guys are ignoring the parts of the Visuddhimagga that pretty much come right out and say "don't try this at home: it's not for the many". =============================== What I find is the following: 121. 10. As to suitability to temperament: here the exposition should be understood according to what is suitable to the temperaments. That is to say: first, the ten kinds of foulness and mindfulness occupied with the body are eleven meditation subjects suitable for one of greedy tempera- 113 Ill, 122 The Path of Purification ment. The four divine abidings and four colour kasinas are eight suitable for one of hating temperament. |||Mindfulness of breathing is the one [recollection as a] meditation subject suitable for one of deluded temperament and for one of speculative temperament.||| The first six recollections are suitable for one of faithful temperament. Mindfulness of death, the recollection of peace, the defining of the four elements, and the perception of repulsiveness in nutriment, are four suitable for one of intelligent temperament. The remaining kasinas and the immaterial states are suitable for all kinds of temperament. And any one of the kasinas should be limited for one of speculative temperament and measureless for one of deluded temperament. This is how the exposition should be understood here 'as to suitability to temperament*. I would think that "one of deluded temperament" includes the mass of people, i.e., "the many". With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121273 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:20 am Subject: Arhatship in 7 days promise by the Buddha truth_aerator Phil, >Ph:They are Goenka devotee talking in a casual way about their >attainments. The woman talks about getting stream entry on the 9th >day of her first retret, the guy talks about "hitting A&P in a >pretty spectacular fashion on the 4th day of my first retreat." At >first I thought he robbed a supermarket, but it turns out that is an >abbreviation for the advanced vipassanna-nana of knowledge of >arising and passing away. Who is to say they didn't, well, I leave >that up to you as an intellgent fellow who respects the Dhamma to >decide for >yourself. >=========================================== And some people in Buddha's time achieved Arhatship within minutes (Bahiya) or days (MahaMoggallana, 7 days) and Satipatthana sutta itself promises Arhatship as quick as 7 days which seems very slow considering the possibility of achieving Arhatship within a day if being instructed by the Buddha. MN85 http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/085-bodhirajak\ umara-e1.html >P:So let's say they are just extreme cases, but the fact that they >are able to leave retreats believing that points at something very >strange in the Goenka organization. Any number of Goenka followers >will tell us no, it's not like that, but spend some time Googling, >if you want to, and perhaps your suspicions will begin to mount, or >not. Whatever. But for now you are still free, as I said before, >since you are a self-confessed "lousy meditator" you are for now at >least not in danger of being fooled into believing you are actually >following the path when you meditate with attainments in mind. >============================= Please forgive me, but how do you know that *they* are fooled and not someone who follows KS? A&P on 9th day seems slow in comparison with Arhatship within minutes/hours or even 7 days (MN10, DN22). "Let alone half-a-month, bhikkhus, whosoever practises these four methods of Steadfast Mindfulness [satipatthana] in this manner for seven days, one of two results is to be certainly expected in him: arahatship in this very existence, or if there yet be any trace of Clinging left, the state of an anagami." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.bpit.html Of course very few people can practice that well for results to come in 7 days. But it is better than not practicing at all. With best wishes, Alex #121274 From: "connie" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:58 am Subject: three jokes nichiconn dear Ace, HCW (#121272): I would think that "one of deluded temperament" includes the mass of people, i.e., "the many". connie: Sure, Howard, and I'd guess these many two dimensional characters aren't somehow being reified here. LOL - maybe in real time it's one predominant trait followed by another by another, etc, like real temperamental verbs but now we've slowed things way down to noun status and can typecast folk into a few tidy little categories... the half dozen given in the Vism are just gross characterizations / generalizations... even the 19 the Guide gives, I'd bet. Surely Sariputta could've reliably figured it out every time if that's all there was to it. Heck, we could probably sit down and tweak the standard batteries of personality tests to make it look all 'buddhisty' and start up our own guru service - with a carefully worded & quite misleading NonReturn Policy, of course. We make the mistake of thinking too much of this one lifetime. One thing about flux is that all the impurities there flow right along with the solder. We're still doing time on our priors. Who am I to say you're not a crouching panther? That's lurking leopard in ~Nan's xltn... viii, 157. And my "not for the many" is "trivial" to him: viii, 211. Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas, and Buddhas' sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons. In proportion as continued attention is given to it it becomes more peaceful and more subtle. So strong mindfulness and understanding are necessary here. If you don't feel like repeating yourself, don't worry - I've read your response(s) to that before... probably almost as many times as we've all seen the quote here. Let's try a different quote this time around. I like the stuff right before that about the "cowherd, wishing to tame a vicious calf that has been fed on the milk of a vicious cow" like the "monk, wishing to tame his malignant mind which has been fed for a long time on the essence arising out of the various objects of sense". PoP p308 / PPn viii, 153ff. Ye olde forest or empty house wherein "that mind of his, though it may hover about, will no more get the object on which it dwelt formerly, and being unable to cut the rope of mindfulness and run away, sits down, lies down, by the object of concentration by virtue of access and escstasy*." (*appa.naa) I don't know, but to me, this already suggests some 'nontrivial' / hard won familiarity with / skill in attaining jhaana is going to be a prerequisite real early on here. connie #121275 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] three jokes upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 12/10/2011 3:58:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: dear Ace, HCW (#121272): I would think that "one of deluded temperament" includes the mass of people, i.e., "the many". connie: Sure, Howard, and I'd guess these many two dimensional characters aren't somehow being reified here. LOL - maybe in real time it's one predominant trait followed by another by another, etc, like real temperamental verbs but now we've slowed things way down to noun status and can typecast folk into a few tidy little categories... the half dozen given in the Vism are just gross characterizations / generalizations... even the 19 the Guide gives, I'd bet. ----------------------------------------- HCW: Sure. ------------------------------------------ Surely Sariputta could've reliably figured it out every time if that's all there was to it. Heck, we could probably sit down and tweak the standard batteries of personality tests to make it look all 'buddhisty' and start up our own guru service - with a carefully worded & quite misleading NonReturn Policy, of course. We make the mistake of thinking too much of this one lifetime. One thing about flux is that all the impurities there flow right along with the solder. We're still doing time on our priors. Who am I to say you're not a crouching panther? ------------------------------------------- HCW: Sounds like a Tai Chi form! ;-) ------------------------------------------ That's lurking leopard in ~Nan's xltn... viii, 157. And my "not for the many" is "trivial" to him: viii, 211. Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas, and Buddhas' sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons. In proportion as continued attention is given to it it becomes more peaceful and more subtle. So strong mindfulness and understanding are necessary here. --------------------------------------- HCW: The difficulty in anapanasati of the breath becoming more and more subtle as the mind calms is also it's advantage, for when the breath changes to being more subtle, "staying with it" requires the intensification of attention. And this can continue as a spiral process of greater subtlety ---> sharper intention ---> greater subtlety ---> sharper intention ---> ... . ---------------------------------------- If you don't feel like repeating yourself, don't worry - I've read your response(s) to that before... probably almost as many times as we've all seen the quote here. Let's try a different quote this time around. I like the stuff right before that about the "cowherd, wishing to tame a vicious calf that has been fed on the milk of a vicious cow" like the "monk, wishing to tame his malignant mind which has been fed for a long time on the essence arising out of the various objects of sense". PoP p308 / PPn viii, 153ff. Ye olde forest or empty house wherein "that mind of his, though it may hover about, will no more get the object on which it dwelt formerly, and being unable to cut the rope of mindfulness and run away, sits down, lies down, by the object of concentration by virtue of access and escstasy*." (*appa.naa) I don't know, but to me, this already suggests some 'nontrivial' / hard won familiarity with / skill in attaining jhaana is going to be a prerequisite real early on here. connie ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121276 From: "colette_aube" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:30 am Subject: Re: How many Abhidhamma scholars does it take to change a light bulb? colette_aube Hi Alex, good show. <...> What is LIGHT? Is light required for vision or to see? Sensory Deprivation, blindfolding, isn't that a lack of sight, of vision, of light? I have had my eyes swollen shut and could not see but while in the emergency room I could still see clearly what was going on around me, I even continually verbalized my cognitions of people walking past me, working, etc. because I wanted to exercise my newly found sight and cognition (see MARTIAL ARTS: "MUSCLE MEMORY") You youself, Alex, even use the term that "and still, the sun came up while others were busy bothering themselves with TRIFFLES" of the need for a "light bulb", something that issues light. Thanx for the acknowlegement of my concept that THE BARDO THODOL had given to me. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > "How many Abhidhamma scholars does it take to change a light bulb? > There are 20W light bulbs, 40W light bulbs, 80W light bulbs, 100W… 200W…There are 6V light bulbs, 12V light bulbs, 120V light bulbs, 240V light bulbs…There are incandescent bulbs, fluorescent bulbs… > There are clear light bulbs, pearled light bulbs, colored light bulbs… > There are screw-in light bulbs, bayonet light bulbs…There are 20W light bulbs that are 6V, there are 20W light bulbs that are 12V… 120V… 240V…There are 40W light bulbs that are 6V… 240V…80W… 100W… 200W… There are 20W light bulbs that are 6V incandescent…There are 200W light bulbs that are 240V, florescent, colored, and bayonet." > =============================================================== > "How many Buddhist scholars does it take to change a light bulb? > An internationally respected committee of academics, after deliberating all night, conclusively failed to agree on the meaning of the word `light bulb'. Meanwhile, the sun came up." <...> #121277 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:29 am Subject: Harmlessness is the Best Protection! bhikkhu5 Friends: Harmlessness & Tolerance Protects all Beings! The Blessed Buddha was a great friend of tolerance & harmlessness: I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of the bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend of the many-footed. May not the footless harm me, may not the bipeds harm me, may not those with four feet harm me, and may not those with many feet harm me. A. II, 72 Among tigers, lions, leopards & bears I lived in the wood. No one was frightened of me, nor did I fear anyone. Uplifted by such universal friendliness I enjoyed the forest. Finding great solace in sweet silent solitude. Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 I am a friend and helper to all, I am sympathetic to all living beings. I develop a mind full of love and delights always in harmlessness. I gladden my mind, fill it with joy, makes it immovable and unshakable. I develop the divine states of mind not cultivated by simple men. Theragatha. 648-9 Thus he who both day and night takes delight in harmlessness sharing love with all that live, finds enmity with none. SN I 208 He who does not strike nor makes others strike, who robs not nor makes others rob, sharing love with all that lives, finds enmity with none. Itivuttaka 22 As a mother even with her life protects her only son, so let one cultivate infinite, yeah universal, friendliness towards all sentient, living & breathing beings. When one with a mind of true affection feels compassion for this entire world, above, below and across, unlimited everywhere. The one who has left violence, who never harm any being, who never kill nor causes to kill, such one, mild, is a Holy Noble One. Dhammapada 405 The one who is friendly among the hostile, who is harmless among the violent, who is detached among the greedy, such one is a Holy Noble One. Dhammapada 406 He is not Noble who injures living beings. He is called Noble because he is gentle & kind towards all living beings. Dhammapada 270 Tolerance is the highest training. Patience is the best praxis. So all Buddhas say. Dhammapada 184 Let no one deceive another or despise anyone anywhere, or through anger or irritation wish for another to suffer. Khuddakapatha 9 Solitude is happiness for one who is content, who has heard the Dhamma and clearly sees. Cordial non-violence is happiness in this world harmlessness towards all living beings. Udana 10 <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <....> #121278 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi Ken H > > > No need to spell it out; we got it the first time. :-) > > I noted "don't do it....don't do it..." but my fingers didn't listen. See, they aren't into Mahasi. Well, they used to be, but now they're into the Thanissaro Bhikkhu breathe-tHrough-your-hands thing. > > Phil > > p.s he does actually teach that...and the scary thing is it works! What happens if you wear gloves - do your hands suffocate? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #121279 From: "philip" Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Three jokes philofillet Hi Rob E >the Thanissaro Bhikkhu breathe-tHrough-your-hands thing. > > > > > > p.s he does actually teach that...and the scary thing is it works! > > What happens if you wear gloves - do your hands suffocate? It's just a kind of visualization, perhaps to do with the pranas (?) in yoga, energy flows and what not. It's really quite interesting, the founder of that tradition Ajahn Lee came up with it as a way to heal his body after a heart attack during a rains retreat. Great, healing is great. But nothing to do with Dhamma, and here he is teaching people to develop jhanas in this way. A farce or a tragedy? The former, I guess, and with the Goenka folks I linked you to, and so many others. THe Buddha said the Dhamma would disappear, so no surprises. Some of us can still hear it. Maybe you? There is still hope. Remember, kusala cittas *must* be rooted in alobha, that is what it comes down to. When the conventional action known as "meditation" is rooted in lobha, it is not kusala, and therefore is not bhavana. I think you are honest enough to see lobha in your meditation, such as it is, there is hope. Other people called it chanda. So on and on they go, swept away in the great surging river of lobha.... There must be alobha with all kusala. That's what this whole meditation debate comes down to, perhaps. But people can't see this simple truth, lobha is so tricky. Phil #121280 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 10-dec-2011, om 0:40 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Also, this has raised the question for me of concept through > language. It obviously takes the time of many, many cittas to think > a thought in language or to say or hear and comprehend a full > sentence. How is the conceptual understanding of a sentence created > through so many arising and falling cittas? I can't grasp how that > is possible using the "single citta" understanding of > consciousness? It can't be that a number of cittas raise the > concept of a single word, then the next group forms the next word, > etc., then somehow the accumulations piece together the full > semantic understanding of the sentence as a whole. So how can > meaningful language even take place? ------ N: This is because of sa~n~naa, remembrance, that accompanies each citta. ------ Nina. #121281 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The camp thing... moellerdieter Dear Sarah (and all), you wrote: (D: I would have fully agreed with : 'only one way to liberation, the eightfold path, abolishing ignorance etc ' ;-) ..... S: See the Satipatthana-Vibhanga Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.040.than.html "And what is the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference." ... D: a good choice of sutta , Sarah , which confirms exactly what I stated above . As you quoted , the practise of the 8fold Noble Path leads to the development of the 4 frames ( which includes the 7th link ). The Satipatthana-Vibhanga Sutta explains by that how we have to understand 'the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming .." stated at the beginning of the Maha Sati Patthana Sutta : as part of the Noble Path training ( D: Sarah , the emphases on satipatthana is your approach . ' the only way ..' view basing on one sentence of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta is disputed . > One may however consider the possibility that the canonical 'only way' means: without practise of mindfulness , there is no further passing , i.e. to the training of samma samadhi, the Jhanas..... S: Only the development of satipatthana leads out of the cycle. See the quotes I gave here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/115354 Also # 115292 D: refering to the former: "--- On Fri, 27/5/11, Robert E wrote: >>S: ...Any kusala (or akusala) which is not the development of satipatthana,which is not the eightfold path, is leading to the continuation of the cycle. that is in line with Satipatthana-Vibhanga Sutta, the Buddha treats the path link samma sati, in numerous others he treated samma samadhi (Jhanas), which always must be understood embedded within the path training. S:The commentaries indicate that even jhana is considered as wrong path. D: I assume that reference is made to the danger of clinging to the supernatural powers , a side effect of the Jhanas. No serious commentary would dispute the 8th link , i.e. samma samadhi, very clearly defined as the Jhanas. (D: Whereas the former aims to be mindful of the 6 senses media and to recognize its reality , the latter aims by absorbtion of the 6 six ( first and second jhana) > to see the states 'behind '. Each practise for its own framework. ... S: Again, see the quotes - all states apart from those in the development of satipatthana, the path factors lead to accumulating more 'bricks' in samsara. D: I assume that you are accepting the embedding of samma sati (satipatthana) within the 8fold Noble Path . My point was and is ,that the canon provides different emphases for different people, but the base is still the Noble Path. (B:T.W. in his introduction to the Maha Satipatthana Sutta , Thanissaro Bhikkhu commented : "As a compound term, satipatthana can be broken down in two ways, either as sati-patthana, foundation of mindfulness; or as sati-upatthana, establishing of mindfulness. Scholars debate as to which is the proper interpretation, but in practice both provide useful food for thought.") ( D: Now for those who emphasize the Jhanas ( with plenty of canonical support) , your statement, obviously disregarding the 8th step , is not acceptable. .... S: No 'steps'. Path factors. D: yes, I know .. though 'steps ' isn't so wrong when talking about path. S: It depends on accumulations whether mundane jhanas are attained prior to enlightenment or not. At moments of enlightenment, right concentration is of the degree of at least first jhana for all. Lots and lots on this in U.P under "jhana and nibbana", "jhana - 2 kinds" etc. D:I think we agree that enlightenment depends on accumulations of the path factors ... ( D: Hence I thought , if the two ' camps ' agree that approach with different emphases is possible (see example ceto vimutti and panna vimutti , as nicely presented by Gombrich, there could be a nicer atmosphere of discussion and sharing. .... S: Ceto vimutti is used in different contexts, always referring to (samma) samadhi. As Nyt dict states: "'deliverance of mind'. In the highest sense it signifies the fruition of Arahatship (s. ariya-puggala), and in particular, the concentration associated with it. It is often linked with the 'deliverance through wisdom' (pa~n~aa-vimutti, q.v.), e.g. in the ten powers of a Perfect One" In other words, when linked with pa~n~naa vimutti, it is never separated from enlightenment, from the fruit of the fully developed right understanding and other path factors. .... D: well , I.M.H.O. the professor provided a nice scheme for 'moistured' and 'dry ' insight .. ( D: I like to point out that ongoing derogatory remarks about meditation show disrespect , involve unwholesome cetasikas and causing disputes and disunity of the forum. ) .... S: I agree that respect for others' opinions and expressions is commendable. I don't think this means one has to agree with those expressions, however, do you? D: we agree on that .. " however " ;-) : only and if the Buddha Dhamma leaves such possibilties (mahapadesa) another possibility of course to give the issue a break .. S:I'm sure there will always be disputes on a discussion list, but there can be understanding and metta at these times too, can't there? D: yes, may all members be aware of that .. ;-) with Metta Dieter #121282 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:03 am Subject: Re: The camp thing... philofillet Hi S and D and all > S:I'm sure there will always be disputes on a discussion list, but there can be understanding and metta at these times too, can't there? > > > D: yes, may all members be aware of that .. ;-) "Can" be, yes, that is the correct understanding. Any efforts to impose metta on others indicates wrong understanding. Dhammas cannot be dictated. May there be understanding of that, it's in short supply in this day and age... Phil #121283 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:21 am Subject: Re: three jokes epsteinrob Hi Connie... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Jokers, > > robE: Try this: if I said: "How to count Volkswagons: Keep your eyes on the road, and when you see a car come by that has the shape of a bug, make a note of it and say 'That's a Volkswagon.' Then when you see another one do the same thing. In that way you can keep track of all the Volkswagons that go by" would you say that was "about nothing in particular and that it was 'a haze of words?' > The noting technique for keeping track of the breath is not any less specific or hazier or vaguer than that; nor is it about nothing in particular either; it's about following the breath using mental noting - very specific. > > connie: First, you use the sadly self-serving 'expedient means' phrase Sadly self-serving? These are means that are used by generations of Buddhists to develop skill in meditation. The idea that meditation is not a part of Buddhism only exists here - nowhere else in the world, so for me to talk about common knowledge and for you to call it "self-serving" is beyond ridiculous. If you want to defend your radical view towards meditation shared by less than 1% of Buddhists around the globe, go for it, but don't disparage others for referencing common knowledge for the 99% of Buddhists who can read suttas and commentaries without cutting out the heart of Buddhist practice. > ...of years by Buddhists and now you drive a VW deeper into unfortunate ground! Well it's not a real VW, just a metaphor, so I'm sure it won't get stuck anywhere. > Please note: it's VolkswagEn Oh, thanks for pointing that out - a slight spelling error in my little analogy! Wow, that is really embarrassing. I will make sure to carry an extra "E" in my pocket from now on, in case of spelling emergencies. that was close. Who knows what could have happened if I had also mistakenly replaced an "a" or an "o" with an alternate vowel. I am shaking with horror just thinking of it. > and the Beetle "Bug" is just 1 of many It was obvious I was referring to the bug, a car I am very familiar with, as it was the first car I ever owned many years ago. Have I broken some rule of international car manufacturing to mention the beloved bug without being specific enough? > - Amaroc, Iroc, Scirocco, CC / R32 / Rabbit / Golf / GTI, Passat, Touareg, Tiguan, Jetta, Eos, Phaeton, Karmann Ghia, the beloved old-school ("hippie") Vans - plain and the campier Westphalia. Plus I don't know what all & a lot of concept models... das auto! So, yeah, hazing's called for, sorry. Are you joking? Your list of all the possible VWs is a self-parody of Abhidhamma-style hair-splitting and school-marm behavior. I was giving an obvious example and didn't specify 'the bug' -- oooo, how horrible. I should have mentioned every single model of car in the known universe and specified colors too so you would not have a high blood pressure attack. So so sorry, I hope you have the appropriate medication. By the way, the old "hippie mini-van" used to blow off of bridges, it was so light. One time on campus I was woken up early at noon to help turn one over that had landed on its side. About eight of us lined up, muscles flexed, to turn it over, and then by accident someone started early and the thing righted itself with just a slight push. It was basically a piece of sheet metal wrapped around an axis. > > HCW: > > Counting breaths is useful to train attention for folks who have had > > little practice. It's really "early on" stuff. > > --------------------------------------------------- > > c: !!! !!! yourself. It's in the Visudhimagga for God's sake. You folks that are so allergic to any mention of meditation techniques ought to accept that these techniques are part of Buddhism, spoken of in the ancient commentaries and sutta in great detail and approved by the Buddha. Enough! > I'm still pretty much in shock over that... and surprised that you'd even wonder about it! More calming medication may be in order, since meditation is out of the question. > What could possibly be "early on" about breath meditation? Unless of course, you guys are ignoring the parts of the Visuddhimagga that pretty much come right out and say "don't try this at home: it's not for the many". Quote, please. It doesn't say anything of that sort in the sections I've read on the techniques for counting breaths, etc. And the Buddha never said anywhere "don't try this at home," as long as you had a decent root of a tree to sit near. And even if it did, many of these technique have been used safely for centuries by everyone and their mother. For God's sake, I have never seen such an uproar out of the simplest of meditation techniques anywhere in the world for all these decades, but you folks get excited and lose all equanimity every time these common simple exercises are mentioned. Why don't you just chill and let other people have their own opinions. I am sick and tired of the attacks of the human hornets. Give it a rest and respect others' views. > I pretty much sound like a broken record when it comes to this V(ism)W(riting) because it's always "Go back to the beginning... this book was written for/about Panditas, not puthus". You might want to reconsider just what the adverse effects coming into contact with some kinds of "meditation goo" / ill advised (poorly understood) "expedient means" might be and whether there aren't some remedies or preventions for it. Have you ever practiced meditation? Have you ever known anyone who was destroyed by counting breaths or sent to a mental hospital by focusing on the breath. What on earth are you blathering about? You are making crap up for no good reason except that you have swallowed and ingested a giant amount of prejudice that runs rampant on this list, and *nowhere else.* You have invented your own philosophy and stick to it like glue - no room for the common views of practicing Buddhists, they are treated like idiots or second-class citizens. How disgusting and disreputable to keep treating regular members like they are stupid fools. Have a debate if you like, but stop attacking the meditators who happen to participate here. I am here mostly to talk about Abhidhamma, but if this subject comes up, it can be handled better. > I sincerely hope you're not infected by the "Secrets of Happiness" Bug described in #119188... and if you think I'm just dismissively making fun of this "expert", Google it and listen for yourself. I was fairly verbatim, sorry to say. > > But yeah, if you want to run off-list and play "you show me yours and I'll show you mine", go for it. > Otherwise, I'd like to see you bring it on and talk about the jhana factors and jhana cittas and all that groovy-cool stuff. Just please, "strive for precision in your speech". Sure, I'd really look forward to more gibes, jokes, insults and attacks from the insecure junior Abhidhammikas around here. No thanks! Why don't you strive for precision in your stories and innuendos and prejudices about the negative effects of meditation. It's all complete nonsense. Enough is enough. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #121284 From: "connie" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:41 pm Subject: Re: three jokes nichiconn dear RobE, take a deep breath, look up the word expedient & get over it. don't worry, i'm done. connie #121285 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:53 pm Subject: Re: Three jokes epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: Rob: I'm aware of some of the Goenka rumors, and have commented on them already, so won't repeat. > But for now you are still free, as I said before, since you are a self-confessed "lousy meditator" you are for now at least not in danger of being fooled into believing you are actually following the path when you meditate with attainments in mind. I still disagree with this diagnosis, as I do with your general view of meditation. > I made fun of Mahashi because of the slow-walking, excessive noting thing, but it's probably Goenka that is the biggest perversion at work now in Theravada. But you can look into it a bit if you want, and ask yourself who deeply that perversion permeates what is called "meditation" in this day and age. I'll leave it there. As I said, I'm aware of some of the cult-like stuff around Goenka, but also consider "sweeping" technique to be a good meditation technique when not taken to excess. > p.s I saw you make a mention of Scott's equanimity, but my God, Rob E, how did this thread start? Because you couldn't let that "slow-mo spoon lifter" comment of mine pass, so here we are covered in joke juice. But thank you, I like writing them, more to come! Do whatever you please. I've already explained how I feel about the jokes, and why I was upset about them. I have no problem with teasing, but there is an attitude beneath this that is not funny, and not friendly. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121286 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:58 pm Subject: Re: three jokes philofillet Hi Rob E Re the 99 percent of Buddhists thing, wouldn't it be a wonderful world if understanding always developed in line with the majority view? I heard A Sujin say some people want to follow traditions, some people want to understand the core Dhamma. Good to consider if the modern traditions deviate from the core, and how. If you spend some time at Dhammawheel or other forums, your faith in the 99 percent will probably crumble... Phil #121287 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:58 pm Subject: Re: three jokes epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > c: "...Otherwise, I'd like to see you bring it on and talk about the jhana factors and jhana cittas and all that groovy-cool stuff. Just please, 'strive for precision in your speech'." > > Scott: Agreed. No precision at all. Just nonsense. I'll have to get my stupid computer fixed now. Bye. All the stuff about jhana is nonsense, no precision? All the things that Buddha said about development of the jhanas is imprecise nonsense? On what basis are you saying that? Your computer must indeed be stupid to type stuff like this. It's ridiculous. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #121288 From: "connie" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:36 pm Subject: Re: three jokes nichiconn ps. sorry i pissed you off. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear RobE, > take a deep breath, look up the word expedient & get over it. > don't worry, i'm done. > connie > #121289 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes nilovg Dear Rob E and Alex, Op 10-dec-2011, om 0:43 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > > > If done correctly there is not a sense of separate thinking, but > > > of the thought "touching the object" as it is put, and being part > > > of awareness, rather than having "separate thinking" arise. I > > > haven't used noting all the time, but I was trained with it, and I > > > think it's a positive tool for focusing awareness. > > ------ > N: Here is again the matter of focussing, intention, effort that > Alex also raised. > Just a few thoughts. Focussing: the task of ekaggata cetasika. Then there is also hitting the object, done by vitakka. There is cetanaa, there is viriya. All these cetasikas perform their tasks in the development of the eightfold Path. However, ekaggata cetasika that focusses on the object is a universal and it also arises with akusala citta. The other cetasikas just mentioned can also be akusala. Vitakka does not arise with each citta, but it may be akusala. The same for viriya. If there is no pa~n~naa we are in for a great problem. It is very difficult to know precisely when the citta is kusala and when akusala. In other words, when pa~n~naa is lacking there cannot be any bhavanaa. Understanding is foremost. First on the level of intellectual understanding and this can condition direct understanding later on. There has to be correct intellectual understanding. -------- > > R: I appreciate your description of how sati can be understood and > arise. The question of when one can "sit" as described by the > Buddha and have many moments of sati arise is a difficult one. > Whether practice necessarily entails self-view or whether it can be > done without such a view is also an issue that is contentious. I do > especially appreciate your reminder of anatta being the main point > of everything. That is good to remember. > ------ N: Sitting in itself is not wrong, any posture will do. Only pa~n~naa can know exactly what type of citta arises at which moment. Nina. #121290 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:47 am Subject: The 2 Blind Drivers! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Advantageous & the Detrimental! There are these two kinds of Desire: 1: Advantageous Desire for unbinding, for release, for peace, for Nibbâna... Why is this form of desire advantageous ? Because it leads towards ultimate safety, freedom, and lasting Happiness! 2: The Detrimental Desire for forms, for body, for feelings, for perceptions, for mental constructions, for sensing, & for the various types of consciousness. Why is this form of desire detrimental? Because it leads to repeated births, ageing, decaying, sickness & repeated death! Because it leads to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, misery & desperate despair. I tell you, because such desire leads to Suffering... These are the two kinds of Desire! There are these two kinds of Disgust: 1: The Advantageous Disgust towards forms, towards body, towards feelings, towards perceptions, towards mental constructions, towards sensing, towards the manifold and various types of consciousness, towards all internal and all external ... Why is this form of disgust advantageous ? Because it leads towards ultimate safety, freedom, and lasting Happiness! 2: The Detrimental Disgust towards friends on the Noble life, towards morality, towards meditation, towards understanding, towards right view, towards right motivation, towards right speech, towards right behaviour, towards right livelihood, towards right effort, and towards right concentration... Why is this form of disgust detrimental? Because it leads to repeated births, ageing, decaying, sickness & repeated death! Because it leads to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, misery & desperate despair. I tell you, because such desire leads to Suffering... These are the two kinds of Disgust! Comments: The autopilot monkey-mind runs with any desire, even if it is catastrophic... This same folly also runs away from any disgust, even if it is advantageous! <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #121291 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes philofillet Hi Nina and all > N: Sitting in itself is not wrong, any posture will do. Only pa~n~naa > can know exactly what type of citta arises at which moment. But believing (as people obviously do) that one posture is more conducive to the arising of sati is wrong, this emphasis on posture is an obstacle to sati, I think there is a section in UPs on this. Phil #121292 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > S: Like now!! > > Like now, this moment. If there were conditions to be mindful at all moments, all troubles would be over. Alas, mindfulness can't be accomplished by lobha, so not so easy, there must be alobha with all moments of kusala. That is the catch. But for now we can say a lot of troubles are gone, but there is still a lot of lobha involved in thinking about that. Lobha is the tricky master. .... S: Yes, lobha is the tricky master and the tricky student..... Even so, there can be awareness right now of such lobha or of shamelessness and at such moments, no thoughts about having awareness at all. I thought of you just now while I was in Sharon's hospital room for a couple of hours with another Buddhist friend I invited. The other Buddhist friend and I were having nice chats about kamma and how a Buddhist understanding affects one's attitude at such times and so on. In between, we were talking to Sharon, trying to get some responses, trying to stimulate her senses with massages, acupressure, particular smells, radio and TV sounds, visible objects and so on. I took a long a big, red apple which I was showing her and laughed as I wondered what Phil would say to all this stimulation of lobha!! How much we like to see and hear and how much we wish to encourage our friends too! Her family have been so very sad, we'd just like to help them all as best we can. Perhaps next time I'll be able to take an ipod of a KS discussion and plug it in her ears.... we'll see - it all has to be what her husband approves of. Metta Sarah ==== #121293 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cetasika in daily life - moha nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 7-dec-2011, om 18:06 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: I had a look at Wiki's 'kilesa' presentation and recognize its > use in a > wide sense.. > Do we agree that all kileasa have their roots in lobha, dosa and moha? -------- N: But we have to distinguish them severally. For instance, conceit does not have as root dosa, only lobha and moha. -------- > > ( D: It is not clear to me in which way the 10 kilesas are > different > in > function/ nature from the 10 unwholesome cetasikas , of which > > they are > identical by name (?) ... so far the kilesas appear to me > as an > unnecessary new classification ...(tautological)> > ------ N: They are not different in nature, but they are set apart as a group. I do not see this as superfluous. ------ > > D: Now, as we are talking about the 4 unwholesome universals , i.e. > Moha , > Ahirika, Anottappa , Uddhacca, > how would you suggest to recognize them as such group , > distinguished from > the other three groups of unwholesome cetasikas? ----- N: As universal akusala cetasikas, sadharana akusala cetasikas. They are not classified as a specific group, since they are always present. ------ Nina. #121294 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you for the report, meanwhile I was already wondering about her. An additional problem for her husband may be that he has to return to London again. Good you stimulate, unconscious people seem to notice more than is apparent. Nina. Op 12-dec-2011, om 9:31 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > In between, we were talking to Sharon, trying to get some > responses, trying to stimulate her senses with massages, > acupressure, particular smells, radio and TV sounds, visible > objects and so on. I took a long a big, red apple which I was > showing her and laughed as I wondered what Phil would say to all > this stimulation of lobha!! How much we like to see and hear and > how much we wish to encourage our friends too! Her family have been > so very sad, we'd just like to help them all as best we can. #121295 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes nilovg Dear Phil, Op 12-dec-2011, om 8:39 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > But believing (as people obviously do) that one posture is more > conducive to the arising of sati is wrong, this emphasis on posture > is an obstacle to sati, I think there is a section in UPs on this. ------ N: That is another matter, but hard to tell what is in other people's mind. Nina. #121296 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis. 34 and Tiika philofillet Hi again Nina > > >With body sense or smell or taste it is easier to understand, because the object seems to impinge in a more direct way on the door. > > No, I am thinking of body sense here, there is no reason to think that a smell impinges on the nose more directly than visual object impinges on the eye...or is there? I see that Expositor covers this, e.g p.411 (Tan): " Although it is said that 'the object is said to be in physical contact because it has reached the sense-avenue' yet tge colour of the disc of the moon, etc, appears as not yet in physical contact and at a distance..." but a bit later "hence eye and ear have an object not in physical contact..." Confusing. Probably not so important, for now at least. Visible object appears, sound appears, smell appears. Thinking too much about relative proximity of object, directness of contact etc brings us back into scientific thinking...or does it? Phil #121297 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. 34 and Tiika nilovg Dear Phil, Op 8-dec-2011, om 4:06 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I guess my question is, is there something intrinsic in the nature > of rupa, or the functions of rupa (I posted before that rupa > doesn't have functions, but I see now that it does according to > textual definitions) that contribute to distorted perceptions? Rupa > just rises and falls away in a moment. Isn't the distortion and > avijja all about nama that doesn't understand properly? I don't > know if that is clear. ------ N: The same ruupa can be cognized with yoniso manasikaara or with ayoniso manasikaara, depending. The fault is with the citta, not with the ruupa. -------- > > Ph: In passing, an unlrelated question. Seeing consciousness is the > only citta that sees. So how do other cittas in the eye door > process cognize the visual object? ----- N: Because they are accompanied by other cetasikas in addition to the universals, by vitakka, applied thinking, vicara, sustained thinking, adhimokkha,determination, which do not accompamy the sense- cognitions. These cetasikas are a support to cognize visible object. -------- > Ph: With body sense or smell or taste it is easier to understand, > because the object seems to impinge in a more direct way on the > door. But visual object? That is difficult to understand. ------- Ph: With body sense or smell or taste it is easier to understand, because the object seems to impinge in a more direct way on the door. No, I am thinking of body sense here, there is no reason to think that a smell impinges on the nose more directly than visual object impinges on the eye...or is there? ------ N: Tangible object, flavour or smell touch the pasada ruupa, the sense organ directly. Visible object is different, think of looking at the sun or moon. Very far away. ------- Nina. #121298 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > thank you for the report, meanwhile I was already wondering about > her. An additional problem for her husband may be that he has to > return to London again. Good you stimulate, unconscious people seem > to notice more than is apparent. ... S: yes, her husband is going to London tomorrow for a few days. I suggested he go this week before we leave for Sydney on Saturday as I can visit the hospital every day while he's away. He was looking more encouraged today and it'll be good for him to have a break, sort out things in the house and so on. Funny, the dietician came in while I was visiting to check all Sharon's dietary preferances, So although she's just being fed by a tube and has so little consciousness, I was advising that she'd like chicken soup, veggies, fruits, no fatty meats, no sweets and so on. She'd approve, I'm sure. I thought of the discussion about the monk's bowl and how for some, everything just gets mixed up together. Connie had given a quote (Vism?) about how the foods shouldn't be mixed up. I've mentioned before about when I prepared a daana for A.Chah, how the apple crumble and custard all got mixed into the curries...... not sure if that's what happens in the feeding tube! Just hope Sharon can feed herself soon and start giving her own orders! My Buddhist friend who went along with me today and I are being rather cheery. The husband thinks it's because we're over-optimistic about the outcome. It's not that. We know that anything can happen and the situation is very difficult, but we just have confidence that the cheery attitude, the stimulation, the chatter, even the fun in the room is far more beneficial to the patient than having visitors sit quietly and sadly by. Of course, it's very difficult for the family in these cases, but when one's thinking of the patient's welfare, there's no time for sadness for oneself. Something nice - my Buddhist friend's interest is in Tibetan Buddhism and usually we skirt around the topic of Dhamma as we know our different understandings. But here, working together in the hospital room, those differences seemed less important....."Life, pleasure, pain, all in one moment that flicks by..." Metta Sarah ===== #121299 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. 34 and Tiika nilovg Dear Phil, Op 12-dec-2011, om 10:08 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I see that Expositor covers this, e.g p.411 (Tan): " Although it is > said that 'the object is said to be in physical contact because it > has reached the sense-avenue' yet tge colour of the disc of the > moon, etc, appears as not yet in physical contact and at a > distance..." but a bit later "hence eye and ear have an object not > in physical contact..." > > Confusing. Probably not so important, for now at least. Visible > object appears, sound appears, smell appears. Thinking too much > about relative proximity of object, directness of contact etc > brings us back into scientific thinking...or does it? ------ N: Yes, I knew it was in the Expositor, but it is going into details. But best is to study what appears right now. ----- Nina. #121300 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:17 pm Subject: Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > S: "...yoniso manasikara is not necessarily referring to pariyatti. > Panna with concepts as objects is not necessarily pariyatti either...in order to be pariyatti, there has to be wise considering (i.e. considering with panna) of dhammas now..." > > Scott: My apologies but this is still not clear. I am, unfortunately, focusing and find that there seems to be no clear explanation for what pariyatti *is.* If you find this annoying we can stop. In the above you say what it is 'not necessarily' and then invoke 'wise considering' defined as 'considering with pa~n~naa with 'dhammas' as object. It has been said that concepts can be objects (while these remain ill-defined) *and* that concepts are not necessarily 'dhammas now.' > > Could you say exactly what you consider pariyatti to be? .... Sarah: I think I have in multiple posts here. As I wrote recently; >Sarah: I read all the quotes you helpfully gave in #120913 from Sujin, Sukin, Nina and myself [on pariyatti]. I agreed with them all and didn't find any lack of 'consensus' in these examples! Like now, if there's wise considering of 'pariyatti' or 'pa~n~naa' or 'visible object' now, it's pariyatti, wise considering of such objects. As stressed, of course, multiple mind-door processes are involved whilst thinking of 'visible object' as it appears now. When there's thinking and wondering and doubt about those processes, then awareness and understanding can arise instantly and know such dhammas as doubt too. Understanding the present dhammas is more precious than 'working out the story' of such dhammas.< .... Sarah: The only way to really understand what pariyatti is, is by understanding more about the realities now. Then no doubt. Metta Sarah ==== #121301 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" nilovg Dear Sarah, I am sure Sharon would feel the atmosphere, being cheery or sad. It is good you and your firned are helping. You put in a lot of effort and time. I appreciate this. Nina. Op 12-dec-2011, om 10:09 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > My Buddhist friend who went along with me today and I are being > rather cheery. The husband thinks it's because we're over- > optimistic about the outcome. It's not that. We know that anything > can happen and the situation is very difficult, but we just have > confidence that the cheery attitude, the stimulation, the chatter, > even the fun in the room is far more beneficial to the patient than > having visitors sit quietly and sadly by. #121302 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes philofillet Hi Nina > N: That is another matter, but hard to tell what is in other people's > mind. Hmmmm, if one lives in a Japanese home and is accustomed to sitting cross-legged, hard to say, but if a person with no such custom decides to sit cross-legged in front of beloved living room Buddha statue, much easier to say there is the obstacle to sati pointed at in those U.P posts, I think. Phil p.s thanks in passing for your replies in tge rupa thread. Yes, whatever is appearing, so many details in Expositor. #121303 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Sarah > S: Yes, lobha is the tricky master and the tricky student..... Ph: I've wanted to ask, I can understand why lobha is said to be the master....but why the student? > Even so, there can be awareness right now of such lobha or of shamelessness and at such moments, no thoughts about having awareness at all. Ph: Indeed. In passing, a big question. Does kusala such as metta accumulate when there is not awareness of it. Can it be said that it accumulates, but unless there is awareness of it, it doesn't develop...or something like that? > I thought of you just now while I was in Sharon's hospital room for a couple of hours with another Buddhist friend I invited. The other Buddhist friend and I were having nice chats about kamma and how a Buddhist understanding affects one's attitude at such times and so on. In between, we were talking to Sharon, trying to get some responses, trying to stimulate her senses with massages, acupressure, particular smells, radio and TV sounds, visible objects and so on. I took a long a big, red apple which I was showing her and laughed as I wondered what Phil would say to all this stimulation of lobha!! How much we like to see and hear and how much we wish to encourage our friends too! Ph; I always remember reading in one of NIna's books, lobha even when we recognize a tree, we *like* to recognize things. And also remember hearing that the very first cittas after rebirth are rooted in lobha. We say lobha is a river, maybe we can also say it is the sea we are born in and only rarely emerge from. > Her family have been so very sad, we'd just like to help them all as best we can. Ph: I'm sure you always find the best way. Well, no one's perfect, but I bet you find the right way to help people a lot of the time. Unless they are people I don't like, I don't like it when you try to help them. I don't like you when you help people I don't like (That is not a joke, it is the way kilesa work.) Of course that not liking you at such times and not liking the other person is just the functioning of dhammas rolling on and on, a story created by ignorance, it is not to be held on to or valued, and no good regretting it. It's already gone. > Perhaps next time I'll be able to take an ipod of a KS discussion and plug it in her ears.... we'll see - it all has to be what her husband approves of. Ph: Might be a tough sell. Best wishes as always for Sharon's recovery, and her family's peace of mind. Phil #121304 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes nilovg Dear Phil, Op 12-dec-2011, om 10:47 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Hmmmm, if one lives in a Japanese home and is accustomed to sitting > cross-legged, hard to say, but if a person with no such custom > decides to sit cross-legged in front of beloved living room Buddha > statue, much easier to say there is the obstacle to sati pointed at > in those U.P posts, I think. ------- N: Perhaps we (including myself) spend so much time guessing about other people's ideas, and then we may forget what our own cittas are like at such moments of guessing. I do this a lot when discussing politics with Lodewijk. ----- Nina. #121305 From: "philip" Date: Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes philofillet Hi Nina > N: Perhaps we (including myself) spend so much time guessing about > other people's ideas, and then we may forget what our own cittas are > like at such moments of guessing. I do this a lot when discussing > politics with Lodewijk. Well, in the talks I listen to there are lots and lots of assumptions made about the cittas of meditators, and I think sometimes in your books as well. But I have heard A Sujin on occasion say there is no way to know, as you do here. Lew te, that's best. And definitely no doubt that it is only by knowing our own cittas that we can get out. (I wonder if there are any canonical examples of people gaining enlightenment through "external" satipatthana, I would doubt it.....) Thanks Nina, that's enough for me on this topic....until tomorrow! Phil #121306 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' nichiconn Scott - when you get back: here's that "accumulation" (why we study) stuff again - vism ch17, 51 ... Abhisa"nkhara.nalakkha.naa sa"nkhaaraa, aayuuhanarasaa, cetanaapaccupa.t.thaanaa, avijjaapada.t.thaanaa. Formations have the characteristic of forming. Their function is to accumulate. They are manifested as volition. Their proximate cause is ignorance. == connie ps. yes, my sense of time is off... lunar eclipse Saturday was only one day long even if it was dark in the morning and again in the evening. > > > R: "...Pannatti arise with citta only and are a creation of citta..." > > > > Scott: I think so. They are the objects of thinking - citta arising in a series. > ... > Sarah: Yes, objects of thinking, "a creation of citta", but NOT "pannatti arise with citta" > #121307 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:16 am Subject: Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes truth_aerator Dear Nina, >N: Sitting in itself is not wrong, any posture will do. Only pa~n~naa >can know exactly what type of citta arises at which moment. >=================== Yes that panna is most important. Posture by itself is never cause for wisdom, but it can in some occasions and circumstances obstruct understanding. Ex: Try to reflect on realities while running, vs sitting in calm place. Arahat cannot be mindless while running, most of us cannot think as well about realities while running to develop understanding. This is an example about postures and developing understanding. With metta, Alex #121308 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:46 am Subject: Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes nichiconn dear Alex, Regarding the following claims: 1. Posture can in some occasions and circumstances obstruct understanding. & 2. most of us cannot think as well about realities while running to develop understanding. Please provide reference(s)... canonical &/or commentarial, thanks. connie #121309 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" moellerdieter Dear Connie, you wrote: not to worry, Dieter - discussion, debate, dispute - they're all just different words for 'conversation' & wimps like me who prefer dainty little words like 'sharing and considering' are just hung up on our own ideas of 'peace' while we tend to ignore our own hostile reactions to what the others offer - there's where camp mentality lies. D: You are right , we tend to ignore our own hostile reactions , that why I like to close ' with Metta' : it is a good reminder to myself to be aware of kamma with a citta 'coloured ' by the akusala cetasika dosa . ( I mean: stay cool, do not let the unplesant feeling to become negative emotion, especially when writing.) Of course : still in training .. ;-) but even then we are never really sure how our message is taken regardless of a friendly intention, are we? C: Thanks for bringing up SN 12.61 yesterday. In particular, the footnote to: (...) the noble disciple, learned in spiritual knowledge, properly and legitimately cognizes [8] just dependent co-arising, thus: ‘In the event of the being of this, there is (also) this; from the arising of this, this (also) arises. In the event of the non-being of this, there is (also) not this. From the cessation of this, this (also) ceases.' [8] This must serve as a provisional rendering of the phrase saadhuka.m yoniso manasikaroti, which has to be discussed in much more detail elsewhere (forthcoming). The expression manasi-karoti is traditionally translated as “he or she attendsâ€Â, while the noun form, manasi-kaara, is traditionally translated as “attentionâ€Â. More literally, however, manasi-karoti means “to do or make in the mano (the cognitive faculty)â€Â. It suggests not a merely passive turning of the attention toward some object, but a specific and fundamental kind of cognitive activity. Yoni means “womb, originâ€Â; such that yoniso connotes something that is rightly or legitimately related to or derived from its source or origin. Unfortunately, it is just not possible to discuss these matters in any detail in a brief footnote. end quotes> I think, in the full 17 citta 'very great object' sense door cognitive process (see Table 4.1 CMA), that this is where the 'percept' ("received" by the sampaticchana citta) turns into 'appercept'. What is 'determined' (by the votthapana citta) is whether the 7 javanas ("apperception") are 'appropriate' to be called akusala, kusala or function. So then I guess it is this 'appercept' (nimitta?) that would serve as object for later mind door cognitive processes. (That's 2 or more questions). D: my understanding of the terms, i.e. its definitions and relation , is not in that advanced state to assume that I may get your point correctly , Connie. The core of the footnote seems to be : "It suggests not a merely passive turning of the attention toward some object, but a specific and fundamental kind of cognitive activity" As I see it : having the process of D.O. in mind , one can recognize for example at the moment of unpleasant feeling the arising /company of a rejecting emotion , i.e. this vedana -tanha relation. Keeping the focus is an cognitive activity (cetasika sati) , but I am not sure what the translator has in mind (to discuss). looking into PTS Dictionary : Apperception Javana : (page 280) Also in cpds. ËšpaÃ±Ã±Ä Ps ii.185 sq.; ËšpaññatÄ A i.45; ËšpaññattaÅ‹ S v.413. <-> 2. The twelfth stage in the function (kicca) of an act of perception (or vÄ«thicitta): the stage of full perception, or apperception. Vism ch. xiv. (e. g. p. 459); Abhdhs. pt. iii, § 6 (kiccaÅ‹); Comp. pp. 29, 115, 245. In this connection javana is taken in its equally fundamental sense of "going" (not "swiftness"), and the "going" is understood as intellectual movement. Nimitta , meaning see definitions below , under 2. is mentioned nimittaÅ‹ gaṇhÄti to make something the object of a thought, to catch up a theme for reflection Vin i.183, cp. S v.150 sq. (˚ŋ uggaṇhÄti); M i.119 (=five sorts of mental images); unquote which I think fits to your comment. Hence reflection of cognition in respect to the process of D.O., is that corresponding with your thinking? ...to which I would agree ;-) C: effecting radio silence now D: ' active' listening instead of sending ? with Metta Dieter Nimitta extract from PTS: 1. sign, omen, portent, prognostication 2. outward appearance, mark, characteristic, attribute, phenomenon (opp. essence) 3. mark, aim: in nimittaÅ‹ karoti to pick out the aim, to mark out 4. sexual organ (cp. lakkhaṇa) Vin iii.129 (n. & aËš, as term of abuse); see also kÄá¹­a & koá¹­acikÄ 5. ground, reason, condition, in nimittena (instr.) and nimittaÅ‹ (acc.) as adv.=by means of, on account of animitta free from marks or attributes, not contaminated by outward signs or appearance, undefiled, ụnaffected, unconditioned unquote #121310 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:33 am Subject: Re: three jokes nichiconn fellow 1%, you might not want to read his book, but check out his article for a few interesting "points on practice" ("meditation"): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/owen-flanagan-phd/do-american-buddhists-miss-the-p\ oint-of-buddhism_b_964188.html# connie Phil: I heard A Sujin say some people want to follow traditions, some people want to understand the core Dhamma. Good to consider if the modern traditions deviate from the core, and how. #121311 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:43 am Subject: Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes truth_aerator Dear Connie, all, >c:Please provide reference(s)... canonical &/or commentarial, thanks. The Buddha often talked about going into secluded places. VsM also recommends going into seclusion and severing impediments. Satipatthana sutta also talks about going into seclusion. "the bhikkhu following the practice of my Teaching, having gone to the forest, or to the foot of a tree or to an empty, solitary place, sits down cross-legged, keeping his body erect,"DN22 Buddha recommends sitting down. Same is found in VsM. "A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments* and learn the meditation subject. Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place." -VsM IX,1 "'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him,- VIII,145. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing. -VIII,153. VIII,158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176; Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting place).42 [271] Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three seasons, suitable to humour and temperament,43 and favourable to the development of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation. Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. -VIII,159. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. - VsM VIII,160. In MN17 the Buddha has said that if in certain forest one does not gain insight and Awakening, then one should go to the forest where one will even if the requisites of life will be hard to obtain. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.bpit.html#fnt-16 http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/017-vanapattha\ -sutta-e1.html With best wishes, Alex #121312 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:57 am Subject: Re: three jokes truth_aerator Phil, all, > fellow 1%, you might not want to read his book, but check out his >article for a few interesting "points on practice" ("meditation"): And one can never understand the food by merely reading the ingredient list on the menu, Phil. Meditation is seeing anicca, dukkha and anatta more clearly in order to develop nibbida, viraga and vimutti (Liberation from suffering). With best wishes, Alex #121313 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:00 am Subject: Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes nichiconn Sorry, Alex, I'm too dense to see how any of the material you've quoted supports your earlier claims about standing and running. You should give up on me, connie A: 1. Posture can in some occasions and circumstances obstruct understanding. & 2. most of us cannot think as well about realities while running to develop understanding. #121314 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:40 am Subject: Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes truth_aerator Connie, Do you see how it supports that Buddha taught about going into seclusion, sitting down and meditating? Even metta meditation according to VsM should be done in seclusion. ""A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments and learn the meditation subject. Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place." -VsM IX,1" Please note: "he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place". With best wishes, Alex #121315 From: Lukas Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:41 am Subject: How to develop right understanding? szmicio Dear friends, My question is: How to develop more right understanding? How to develop satipatthana? Best wishes Lukas p.s When is the closest meeting with Acharn Sujin? #121316 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:53 am Subject: Re: three jokes philofillet Hi Alex > > And one can never understand the food by merely reading the ingredient list on the menu, Phil. Seeing and visible object, and the thinking that arises from their meeting, and the akusala cittas (usually) that are conditioned to proliferate in response, and so on for the other sense doors....if that is a menu for you rather than food for understanding and progress toward liberation tgat is due to your lack of understanding. But something might possibly click one of these days, I sometimes wonder whether it will be you or Rob E. But I'm not generous enough to make the effort to help, except now and then like this, so many have spent hundreds (tgousands?) of cumulative hours trying. Phil #121317 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:06 am Subject: Re: How to develop right understanding? philofillet -- Hi Lukas > How to develop more right understanding? > > How to develop satipatthana? Ph: Is tgere seeing now, hearing now, thinking, lobha, dosa and any otger reality. There are conditions for developing satipattgana for you, no worries, keep listening, reading, reflecting, and considerung realities now. No hurrying it, that's the trap most people fall into. We are all so hungry for progress in this day and age. > When is the closest meeting with Acharn Sujin? I think you can meet her anytime in Bangkok. But listening to the talks is great... Phil #121318 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:13 am Subject: Re: How to develop right understanding? szmicio Hi Phil, > > How to develop satipatthana? > > Ph: Is tgere seeing now, hearing now, thinking, lobha, dosa and any otger reality. L: It seems to me like thinking more than seeing and hearing. >There are conditions for developing satipattgana for you, no worries, keep listening, reading, reflecting, and considerung realities now. L: But what about clinging to reading, listening Dhamma? Isnt it an obstracle? > No hurrying it, that's the trap most people fall into. We are all so hungry for progress in this day and age. L: Yes, another race. But this is hard to notice. Best wishes Lukas #121319 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:14 am Subject: Re: Three jokes epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > >the Thanissaro Bhikkhu breathe-tHrough-your-hands thing. > > > p.s he does actually teach that...and the scary thing is it works! > > > > What happens if you wear gloves - do your hands suffocate? > > It's just a kind of visualization, perhaps to do with the pranas (?) in yoga, energy flows and what not. Probably so. Visualization can actually guide energy to a location, speaking in those terms at the moment... I tend to think of awareness, energy, healing and development of understanding as part of a continuum, but I understand that you won't share that view, and happy to talk about them separately if we can do more peacefully. > It's really quite interesting, the founder of that tradition Ajahn Lee came up with it as a way to heal his body after a heart attack during a rains retreat. Great, healing is great. But nothing to do with Dhamma, and here he is teaching people to develop jhanas in this way. A farce or a tragedy? Well, see, this is where I think the attitude is kind of strange. Sure, you have an understanding of Dhamma that all these things are separate and that any mixing of healing and meditation and development of understanding in Dhamma is just super-weird, and I understand the view although I think it is radical and unnecessarily compartmentalized. The dhammas-only understanding may indeed be the real level on which realization of truth occurs, but that doesn't mean, to me at least, that all these other kusala things have nothing at all to do with it. I just don't see the necessity for keeping all of the positive things that exist in life, or a monastery, or in the understanding of a great Buddhist teacher, separate from the path. Buddha spoke of many mundane-level things and said they were kusala, so why do we have to deny this level and reject it? It seems like a very dogmatic and unnecessary view to me. By all accounts, Ajahn Lee was one of the great Buddhist teachers of modern times. His understanding of jhana was certainly greater than the scholars who only studied jhana on paper. He practiced it and had a great great deep understanding of practice. The Thai forest tradition is a meditation tradition, unbroken since the time of the Buddha. Even if you have different accumulations than those monks, I think their path and understanding should be treated with the greatest respect. This idea that only dsg and dry insight is the correct way to practice is just not right. Everyone acknowledges that you have to do what your accumulations lead you to do, so we should understand that there are still those in the world who are practicing and meditating full-time, that they can practice jhana when they are in the monastic life, and that this is right for them, if not for others. > The former, I guess, and with the Goenka folks I linked you to, and so many others. The Buddha said the Dhamma would disappear, so no surprises. Some of us can still hear it. Maybe you? There is still hope. I don't think any of us should presume that we are the ones who still know the true Dhamma and that others are deluded. We are not arahats, so we don't know who has gone astray. We do know that different accumulations lead to different *correct* tendencies for practice, as well as akusala results. WE should be careful not to get too smug and keep questioning our own understanding and prejudices. > Remember, kusala cittas *must* be rooted in alobha, that is what it comes down to. When the conventional action known as "meditation" is rooted in lobha, it is not kusala, and therefore is not bhavana. I think you are honest enough to see lobha in your meditation, such as it is, there is hope. Other people called it chanda. So on and on they go, swept away in the great surging river of lobha.... > > There must be alobha with all kusala. That's what this whole meditation debate comes down to, perhaps. But people can't see this simple truth, lobha is so tricky. It is so tricky, that we have to realize that it can arise in every situation, not just the ones we are against. We all understand that lobha arises with Dhamma study, meditation, with everything, so no matter what we do we have to keep our eyes open and allow awareness to develop and understanding to arise when the opportunities come. One good practice is to look at our own views and how we cling to ourselves whenever we are opposed to others and judge them and think about how right and wonderful our own understanding is. That is the time to catch the lobha in my view, and to see self-view rearing up proudly and giving quite a grand display, and that is real practice; not by wasting too much time thinking "these teachers are crazy because their practice is different from mine," and "look at the crazy asses who are following their breath. They crazy!" We may turn out to be quite crazy too. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #121320 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:19 am Subject: Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes nichiconn Ok, Alex, I might concede it supports "don't run with the pack" but you still haven't answered and I don't think it's worth pursuing, so kindly allow me to drop out of the race. thanks, connie > Do you see how it supports that Buddha taught about going into seclusion, sitting down and meditating? #121321 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:21 am Subject: Re: three jokes epsteinrob Hi Connie. No problem. Sorry I had a fit. If I had a sense of humor "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" should have been very funny. The thing that really got me was challenging my knowledge of the VW bug, since it was my first car. That was over the line. ;-( I'll look up expedient and get back to you... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > ps. sorry i pissed you off. > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > > > dear RobE, > > take a deep breath, look up the word expedient & get over it. > > don't worry, i'm done. > > connie > > > #121322 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:25 am Subject: Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes truth_aerator Connie, Try to contemplate realities when running, vs contemplating realities when sitting down in quite place where you are not disturbed. If you don't understand this, then I can't help you here. With best wishes, Alex #121323 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:32 am Subject: Re: How to develop right understanding? philofillet Hi Lukas > L: It seems to me like thinking more than seeing and hearing. For sure! But thinking is a reality too, no control. I do think there can be more and more understanding of dhammas. But no hurrying it. > >There are conditions for developing satipattgana for you, no worries, keep listening, reading, reflecting, and considerung realities now. > > L: But what about clinging to reading, listening Dhamma? Isnt it an obstracle? I don't think so. Buddha says they are condition for panna to develop. Some days I read and listen for comfort and encouragement and diiderent dhammas than times when there is less neediness, more food for understanding. The clinging can be understood, it is a dhamma too. > > No hurrying it, that's the trap most people fall into. We are all so hungry for progress in this day and age. > > L: Yes, another race. But this is hard to notice. Ph:Gradually we understand better and better... Back to sleep for me now. It is 5 a.m Phil #121324 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 10-dec-2011, om 0:40 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > Also, this has raised the question for me of concept through > > language. It obviously takes the time of many, many cittas to think > > a thought in language or to say or hear and comprehend a full > > sentence. How is the conceptual understanding of a sentence created > > through so many arising and falling cittas? I can't grasp how that > > is possible using the "single citta" understanding of > > consciousness? It can't be that a number of cittas raise the > > concept of a single word, then the next group forms the next word, > > etc., then somehow the accumulations piece together the full > > semantic understanding of the sentence as a whole. So how can > > meaningful language even take place? > ------ > N: This is because of sa~n~naa, remembrance, that accompanies each > citta. > ------ So a single written word [visual rupa] or spoken syllable [object of hearing] will be interpreted by a citta process and then remembered by sanna to add to the next sound-meaning or written-meaning? It must be very complicated, esp. given the changes in semantic meaning in different contexts and changes of meaning with nuance, context, tone of voice, facial expression, etc. Sanna must be accumulating knowledge of many thousands of rupas and namas for each sentence...? Will this also explain how a concept is coordinated by sanna from whatever processes are necessary to recreate and maintain it over time? If I am thinking of my "car" and "going for a drive" then many images and thoughts about what a car is and what is involved in driving must be assembled and coordinated by sanna for each thought-process, and, while thinking, involve actions to plan to go to my car, then to actually get up and go to the car, etc., while referring back to the thought and meaning of the concept and keeping the idea in mind. Would that be correct, and is that how the meaning or interpretation of pannatti are continued over the many citta processes that arise and fall? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121325 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Nina > > > N: Perhaps we (including myself) spend so much time guessing about > > other people's ideas, and then we may forget what our own cittas are > > like at such moments of guessing. I do this a lot when discussing > > politics with Lodewijk. > > Well, in the talks I listen to there are lots and lots of assumptions made about the cittas of meditators, and I think sometimes in your books as well. But I have heard A Sujin on occasion say there is no way to know, as you do here. Lew te, that's best. And definitely no doubt that it is only by knowing our own cittas that we can get out. Just jumping in to say that I think that what Nina said and the thought process you are engaging in response is quite intelligent. I think it is worthwhile to start to see where our attention goes and the assumptions we make that do not feed the real path and that are part of holding on to views instead of seeing realities. For our own sake I think it's worthwhile to at least see what that is about and what it feeds or neglects. > (I wonder if there are any canonical examples of people gaining enlightenment through "external" satipatthana, I would doubt it.....) There has been some dispute about what external satipatthana means in Buddhist circles. Is there an agreed-upon understanding of it here? I would be interested to know whether it involves one's own external rupas, or whether it is related to other people, as some have interpreted. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #121326 From: "philip" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:49 am Subject: Re: Three jokes philofillet Hi Rob E > I tend to think of awareness, energy, healing and development of understanding as part of a continuum, but I understand that you won't share that view, and happy to talk about them separately if we can do more peacefully. Ph: If I understand correctly, the teaching on kamma says that if people are living healthy, conventionally wholesome lives, there are less favourable conditions for akusala kamma to come to fruition, or something like that. Having a healthy, healing lifestyle is obviously not bad (unless we get super attached to good health, that sets up a lot of suffering.) But I don't see it as a topic that I would discuss at length. You shoulda caught me on this a year ago at this time! BTW, I do a yoga called kriya kirtia or something like that. When I was "meditating" a lot last year in that new-agey A. Lee style my mind would get quite lit up and I sensed there could be a connection between what is called "meditation" and preventing or delaying Alzheimers, which is an interest of mine. I found that studies had been done using it, and cognition of people suffering from early stages of dementia was improved, or something like that, so now I do it, on most days, it's totally new age and nothing to do with Dhamma, you visualize energy flowing from the crown chakra out the third eye, and I take elements from that Ajahn Lee/Thanissaro Bhikkhu "meditation" and imagine breath flowing through the brain as well. An interesting thing is that the very moment I imagine something like that, I yawn, invariably, which means oxygen that is usually in the lungs is going elsewhere, so it may actually happen. So I give myself a brain massage using that "ki" energy and oxygen. Nothing to do with Dhamma, but an interesting exercise for the brain, and when I do it I feel energetic afterwards. Sarah's yoga (I guess she is pretty seriously about it, she goes on trips to meet her teachers) probably contributes in some way to her patient energy here, but understanding Dhamma has gotta be best. So that's what I want to discuss here, thanks. PHil #121327 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:43 pm Subject: Re: Three jokes epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Ph: If I understand correctly, the teaching on kamma says that if people are living healthy, conventionally wholesome lives, there are less favourable conditions for akusala kamma to come to fruition, or something like that. Well that's along the lines that I would suggest as well, though I think the interaction of such things in creating conditions is a little more significant than that. > > BTW, I do a yoga called kriya kirtia or something like that. When I was "meditating" a lot last year in that new-agey A. Lee style my mind would get quite lit up and I sensed there could be a connection between what is called "meditation" and preventing or delaying Alzheimers, which is an interest of mine. But no lighting up of cittas? > Sarah's yoga (I guess she is pretty seriously about it, she goes on trips to meet her teachers) probably contributes in some way to her patient energy here, Well it obviously hasn't worked for me. I taught yoga for 15 years. Oh well! > ...but understanding Dhamma has gotta be best. So that's what I want to discuss here, thanks. I wasn't suggesting that we get into a prolonged discussion of auxiliary spiritual practices, just saying that it was okay with me to keep them "separate." I would not be interested in talking about those things in general. I'm more interested in fine detail, but doing that at length would be pretty O/T for this group. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #121328 From: "colette_aube" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:04 am Subject: Re: three jokes colette_aube Hi Robert E., "non-sense"? Why is it that you are enslaving yourself to NAME & FORM? Jhana is nothing more than a label upon which Buddhists and Hindu Yoga practitioners attempt to describe the indescribable sensation of a Jhana. Why did you constraint yourself to the simplistic label or name to describe YOUR inner feelings and YOUR true nature? Why didn't YOU use the far more descriptive word RUBBISH? Why limit yourself to the constraints of an illusionary person having "senses" and thus "sense organs"? Just come right out and say it, tell it like it is, FOR YOU, and that is that it's all RUBBISH, garbage, refuse. <...> LOL I think that your point is rather a childish and materialistic position to defend and thus to crave, desire, to possess. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Scott. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > > c: "...Otherwise, I'd like to see you bring it on and talk about the jhana factors and jhana cittas and all that groovy-cool stuff. Just please, 'strive for precision in your speech'." > > > > Scott: Agreed. No precision at all. Just nonsense. I'll have to get my stupid computer fixed now. Bye. > > All the stuff about jhana is nonsense, no precision? All the things that Buddha said about development of the jhanas is imprecise nonsense? On what basis are you saying that? > > Your computer must indeed be stupid to type stuff like this. It's ridiculous. > > Best, > Rob E. > > = = = = = = = > #121329 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:24 am Subject: What is Ignorance? bhikkhu5 Friends: Ignorance is the Root of Suffering! At Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana , they once asked Sâriputta : Ignorance, ignorance, it is said, what now, friend, is this ignorance, and in what way is one immersed in such ignorance? Here, friend, the uninstructed ordinary person does not understand as it really is: The arising, the ceasing, the satisfaction, the danger, nor the escape, nor the way leading to escape, neither in the case of form, nor of in the case of feeling, nor of in the case of perception, nor of in the case of mental construction, nor of in the case of this consciousness. This, friends, is called ignorance, and in this way is one indeed still immersed in the fatal blindness of ignorance... <....> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya 22:131+5 III 174-6 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <....> #121330 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:07 pm Subject: B Alan Wallace, PhD on Science, Buddhism, Dogmatism, Skepticism & Realism! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: B. Alan Wallace, PhD. on Science, Buddhism, Dogmatism, Skepticism & Realism! http://youtu.be/nuTa4HoxKcE Contemporary science seen as Idolatry with "matter" as the fetish golden calf... Indeed have today's "scientism" become the most dogmatic religions of all time! Just like the popes cardinals denied looking into Galileo's binoculars, even so do present day "scientists" deny to look into the object: Consciousness unless under the hidden, unseen & a priori assumption that consciousness is an emergent property of matter, produced by the brain, thereby completely missing the crucial fact that consciousness is a fundamental irreducible element in its own right, not emerging from matter, not a product of the brain! In fact it is consciousness that manifests all properties and qualitties connected with the concept "matter" and not the other way around! Just because the beer is inside the bottle, it does NOT IMPLY that the beer is PRODUCED by the bottle; since in fact: Its NOT! Just because consciousness is inside the brain, it does NOT IMPLY that consciousness is PRODUCED by the brain; since in fact: Its NOT! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #121331 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment, just like now! sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette_aube" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > "thoughts"? > > "The Liberation Through Hearing During The Intermediate State (Tibetan: bardo "liminality"; thodol as "liberation"[1]), sometimes translated as Liberation Through Hearing or Bardo Thodol is a funerary text. It is often referred to in the West by the more casual title, Tibetan Book of the Dead, a name which draws a parallel with the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead, another funerary text." > > Wikipedia (see BARDO THODOL) > > Is this a "thought", Sarah? .... S: Yes. A series of thoughts or ideas. .... > > In this case, the monks chant next to the corpse, the dead body of the deceased. DECEASED? How can a dead body HEAR? ..... S: Impossible. .... >The chanting can physically enter the ear and can vibrate the ear drum but there is no "mind" for the sound to go to and thus have an effect. .... S: Right, if now 'hearing', no sound is experienced. As soon as the last moment of experience of this life falls away, it is followed by the first moment of experience of the next life. The "worn-out body" is then just a mass of rupas, like those of a tree-trunk (apart from rupas still conditioned by past kamma) without any experiencing of any sounds at all. Metta Sarah ==== #121332 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -Uddhacca /Restlessness sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, In case this wasn't answered: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > I can't find Metta within the 52 Cetasikas , but suspect it may stand behind Adosa . Would you say that is correct ? ..... S: Yes, it is included in adosa. Adosa arises with all wholesome cittas. When the object is a being, a person, then the adosa which accompanies the citta is metta. In other words, when we think of other beings or people, if there is no metta arising at such times, then the citta is akusala. .... > If not , where else to find the state of 'all embrassing kindness' (Nyanatiloka), or ' kindly thought, a heart full of love D i.167; iii.237; Sn 507;to be friendly or sympathize with, friendly, benevolent, kind as adj. at D iii.191 , sympathetic, showing love towards It 22 ' (all for Metta ,see Pali Text Society) ? .... S: Yes, adosa cetasika, metta in these examples because the object is other being(s). Many, many opportunities during the day, like now! Metta Sarah ==== #121333 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:51 pm Subject: Re: no control and justification for akusala sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Alex, Scott & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > >A: Is it me, or does putting too much emphasis on no-control turns into an excuse to continue less-than-ideal behavior? > >P: I used to say this too, though I said anatta instead of no-control. > I think the error here is assuming that people behave badly. You don't know that. I write rude posts sometimes, but you don't know me and what I am like away from the computer. You don't know anyone. (Well, you and Scott both live in Edmonton, if I'm not mistaken, maybe you have run into each other on a few occasions at Tim Horton's, in line.) .... Sarah: (Of course, no Phil at or away from the computer...) Both in Edmonton - reminds me - I had an idea for some "ideal behaviour" and neighbourly good-will, Alex & Scott. As Scott is always over-busy and has to get up at the crack of dawn to do his shovelling duties and dog-walking/clearing up jobs before getting the kids to school and off to work, how about Alex doing some shovelling and dog-walking in return for some more "no-control" reminders from Scott or his library or his dog:-)? Metta Sarah ==== #121334 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes nilovg Dear Alex, Op 12-dec-2011, om 16:16 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Yes that panna is most important. Posture by itself is never cause > for wisdom, but it can in some occasions and circumstances obstruct > understanding. > > Ex: Try to reflect on realities while running, vs sitting in calm > place. > > Arahat cannot be mindless while running, most of us cannot think as > well about realities while running to develop understanding. > > This is an example about postures and developing understanding. ---------- N: The arahats would never run. The monk's lifestyle is the style of the arahat. There are certain prescriptions how to walk, wear his robes, hold the bowl. He is not supposed to run, that would be unworthy. This can remind us to think of the way we run (I am unable to because of my age). What types of citta motivate a person's running? One should study one's cittas. Mostly cittas rooted in attachment, or in aversion. Mindfulness of cittas is essential, otherwise we lead our life with ignorance. Is there anyone who could prevent sati from arising when it is the right time? It depends on sati, it chooses its own time; just like seeing now, it arises when there are conditions. Phenomena roll on, by conditions. ------ Nina. #121335 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: >> S: Avijja and sankhara (kamma) in the past, yes, conditioning birth (and subsequent vipaka) in this life. The past avijja and past kamma have completely gone - even the avijja and kamma of a moment ago has completely gone. Avijja accumulates, conditions all kinds of kamma which brings results and so on. The 3 rounds of kilesa, kamma and vipaka, round and round. > It is through the accumulated development of (present) understanding that avijja is abolished. > > D: I disagree with avijja (and sankhara /kamma force, the first 2 links) has (ve) completely gone, in fact the 12 links chain of dependent origination describes samsara , not only for this life . > Again SN 35,145 : ..'Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma."And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma.' > > Where would you place avijja in this life if it has gone..? The delusion exists and drives the kamma force, doesn't it? .... S: Yes. The first link refers to the past avijja was the condition for the kamma which caused the birth in this life. In other words, avijja is the cause of the whole wheel of becoming. Avijja now conditions more kamma and more becoming in future. For example, the bhava in D.O. refers to present kamma conditioned by avijja and lobha. On and on, kilesa vatta, kamma vatta, vipaka vatta - the three rounds. .... ..... > As far as I know, nowhere in the canon is stated that avijja has completey gone..(before enlightenment) ..... S: Avijja arises with every akusala citta and in effect conditions the entire round of samsara. It is though the abandoning of avijja on becoming an arahat that the cause of samsara and future births is cut. Our discussion was about the first link of D.O. which in particular refers to the past avijja which conditioned the present becoming. ... +++++ > > S: The khandas refer to all conditioned dhammas. Sankhara khandha includes all cetasikas apart from sanna and vedana which have their own khandhas. So, as Nina stressed, the context for a term is very important > > > > D: yes, my point is that sankhara khanda , as part of the nama khandas (4th place) , involves momentary volition (in respect to the 6 senses media) ..... S: The "nama" in "nama-rupa" referred to in D.O. refers specifically to the vipaka cetasikas accompanying patisandhi (birth consciousness) as a result of past kamma and subsequent vipaka cittas, such as seeing and hearing. So the "momentary volition" included in this nama-rupa link, would refer to the "result cetana" accompanying moments of seeing and hearing, like now, for example. It does not refer to subsequent "reactions" or kamma. .... > ... >> S: The nama in "4th place" only includes those cetasikas accompanying patisandhi (birth) consciousness and subsequent vipaka cittas in this life. So, yes, at a moment of seeing consciousness, the seven universal cetasikas accompanying seeing are included in "4th place nama", but not those accompanying attachment to that seeing, for example. There is cetana, momentary volition, with every citta, so I agree that this is included. > As for the relevance, how about avijja now? Most the day, there's no understanding, no awareness at all of avijja which arises with all unwholesome cittas - i.e. all those javana cittas not involved with dana, sila or bhavana > > D: The point of not knowing is that we are not aware about , though there is as well the specific aspect of ignorance : not wanting to know . > The development of disentchantment , dispassion and so detachment is without doubt hard work of insight practise , isn't it? .... S: yes, most of the day - avijja, not knowing, not any awareness at all. Just dhammas, not anyone's. The development of disenchantment, detachment and so on occurs as insight, as panna, develops. "Insight practise"? No self to practise or do anything. Through understanding, insight develops, that's all. Appreciating that dhammas are anatta, beyond anyone's control conditions more disenchantment, more dispassion, more detachment. So useless to want it to develop! Metta Sarah === #121336 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -Uddhacca /Restlessness sarahprocter... Dear Dieter. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > S: As the commentary to the sutta above makes clear, it is the grabbing of the different branches with attachment that is the problem. Cittas will always arise and fall away experiencing different objects even without attachment. So it is the wise attention, the understanding and awareness when cittas arise and fall away in rapid succession that is being encouraged, not any 'slowing down' or 'focussing' that is being stressed: > > Note 157: "Spk: By day and by night (rattiyaa ca divasassa ca): This is a genitive in the locative sense, i.e. during the night and during > the day. Arises as one thing and ceases as another (a~n~nadeva uppajjati, a~n~na.m nirujjhati): The meaning is that (the mind) that ... > arises and ceases during the day is other than (the mind) that arises and ceases during the night. The statement should not be taken to > mean snip ...So too, when the mind is roaming through the grove of objects, it cannot be said that it arises without holding to an > object; rather, it arises holding to an object of a single kind." > > D:What is explained here is that the monkey jumps not without holding on an object . Can you find a note about the Buddha's conclusion > what has to be done about such restlessness: "The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising" ? ... S: When there is awareness of the reality appearing now, there is no attempt to slow the cittas down, focus on them or anything else. Awareness is just aware of what appears. ... > D: I was not talking about ' prayer, yoga, tai chi or stress avoidance or wold peace etc. , but emphasize the state of mind , which makes it possible to 'attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising" which is hardly possible with restless jumping. .... S: Whether it is a citta with lobha, dosa, moha or calm - any citta can be the object of awareness. if we think that only particular states or kinds of dhammas at particular times during the day, such as in the examples above, then it indicates strong attachment (and wrong view) to having awareness arise at specific times - not understanding dhammas as anatta or understanding how sati-sampajanna can develop at any time at all, any dhamma at all. Remember that in the Satipatthana Sutta, the first kind of citta mentioned under cittanupassana is citta with lobha. ... > S:: When the mind is overwhelmed by lobha, by other kilesa, lost in the signs and details, the concepts being attended to, the mind is "possessed by restlessness" - no understanding of what is for anyone's welfare at such times, no wise attention at all. > > > D: yes, unfortunately , restlessness is a habit ..and the moments of tranquillity ( or call it inner peace) rare ..... if we don't seek for it. ... S: When there is "seeking for" moments of tranquillity, what kinds of cittas are arising? Lobha, surely? metta Sarah ==== #121337 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:35 pm Subject: Re: kamma and this moment sarahprocter... Dear Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > Sitting here reading and appreciating DSG every day, I have somehow got out of the habit of contributing. .... S: Time that changed! > > There are no excuses for such antisocial behaviour, but I might mention that I am in the throes of starting a new business. After sixty-one years I have finally discovered the work ethic! (Not really.) .... S: Why not tell us more about the business and give some dhamma reminders at the same time? A bit like my hospital visits - all daily life, all dhammas..... ... > > So instead of silently appreciatively the many threads, I had better actually comment on one: > > ---- > >> Nina: As to reflection on good or bad deeds, I would be careful with reflection. Maybe there is no time for reflection! > >> > > > Rob E: <. . .> good point; the moment is already over by then. > ---- > > KH: I agree too. Everyone *should regularly* reflect on their own behaviour, but not for Abhidhamma purposes - not for purposes of identifying fleeting (trillionth of a second) conditioned dhammas. That would only reflect wrong understanding. .... S: Yes, dangerously close to trying to 'catch' cittas and/or more "me and my story of citta behaviour". So, look forward to hearing more about those work-ethic cittas!! Metta Sarah ===== #121338 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > Can you give me a better idea of how pannatti are actually created? If a single citta arises and "creates" the concept, do a series of cittas arise in a group formation, one at a time, to form the illusion of the concept? How does it take place? It can't remain after the citta falls away, since it is merely a creation and has no independent existence, yet the illusion is created over a number of cittas that the pannatti have this "timeless" existence that is immutable to the changes from moment to moment. Can you give me an idea of how this occurs? ... S: As Nina said - sanna. Sanna, vitakka, vicara and other factors work together, remembering, thinking about objects in particular ways, according to accumulated tendencies. There is only an "illusion" of reality if ignorance (and wrong view) arise with the cittas. An arahat's cittas still "create" the concepts, think about the concepts, but no illusions of any kind, of course. Timeless, just because they don't arise and fall away. Take the concept of an orange now - the cittas think about an orange because particular visible objects, smells, tangible objects are identified by cittas in particular ways according to what we've heard and read. All, according to accumulated sanna. It's the same for the arahat, but when thinking of an orange, no vipallasas - no perversions of something existing, something being permanent or dhammas as satisfactory or beautiful in anyway. ... > > Also, this has raised the question for me of concept through language. It obviously takes the time of many, many cittas to think a thought in language or to say or hear and comprehend a full sentence. How is the conceptual understanding of a sentence created through so many arising and falling cittas? I can't grasp how that is possible using the "single citta" understanding of consciousness? It can't be that a number of cittas raise the concept of a single word, then the next group forms the next word, etc., then somehow the accumulations piece together the full semantic understanding of the sentence as a whole. So how can meaningful language even take place? .... S: Again, through accumulated sanna, vitakka and other factors. Nothing is ever 'lost' or 'forgotten' in this sense. So what was thought about or heard a moment ago by one citta is recalled by subsequent cittas. It's the same with recognition of a face and so on.... concepts don't need to be in words. The workings of cittas and sanna are incredibly intricate and because of the continuity of cittas (without any awareness), this is why there are the preversions and ideas of 'wholes' - actually, just a complexity of cittas and cetasikas performing their tasks of experiencing different concepts in between the sense door experiences. Metta Sarah p.s all - we're travelling on Sat and I have to visit the hospital every day, so running out of time for further replies until next week. ==== #121339 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The camp thing... sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > >>S: ...Any kusala (or akusala) which is not the development of satipatthana,which is not the eightfold path, is leading to the continuation of the cycle. > >D: that is in line with Satipatthana-Vibhanga Sutta, the Buddha treats the path link samma sati, in numerous others he treated samma samadhi (Jhanas), > which always must be understood embedded within the path training. .... S: Samma samadhi - right concentration, not to be confused with mundane jhanas. .... > > > S:The commentaries indicate that even jhana is considered as wrong path. > > > D: I assume that reference is made to the danger of clinging to the supernatural powers , a side effect of the Jhanas. .... S: This is referring to the development and attainment of the mundane rupa and arupa jhanas. Nothing to do with the eightfold path unless they are the object of satipatthana, regardless of whether there is any subsequent clinging to them or not. .... >D: No serious commentary would dispute the 8th link , i.e. samma samadhi, very clearly defined as the Jhanas. .... S: The "serious" Theravada commentaries very clearly distinguish between the mundane jhanas - the rupa and arupa jhanas and the samma samadhi of the eightfold path which arises with the other path factors. The mundane jhanas, attained by large numbers before the Buddha's enlightenment, do nothing to eradicate the idea of atta. .... > S: Again, see the quotes - all states apart from those in the development of satipatthana, the path factors lead to accumulating more 'bricks' in samsara. > > D: I assume that you are accepting the embedding of samma sati (satipatthana) within the 8fold Noble Path . My point was and is ,that the canon provides different emphases for different people, but the base is still the Noble Path. .... S: The "base" is always the development of the path factors with right understanding of namas and rupas as anatta. ..... >> S: No 'steps'. Path factors. > > D: yes, I know .. though 'steps ' isn't so wrong when talking about path. .... S: I think that if we refer to the Path factors as "steps" it's very wrong. The factors arise and develop together, no in an order of steps. metta Sarah ===== #121340 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:45 am Subject: Re: no control and justification for akusala truth_aerator Hello Phil, Sarah, all, Regarding control: If person is hungry, one can't stop it through mere wishing "let the hunger cease!". One can't control hunger that way. But by going to the fridge and getting food, and eating it, the hunger will be dealt. No issue of "control" here. Just correct causes for specific results. Same for many other conditions. Just because mere wishing doesn't work, it doesn't mean that one drops like a log and starves to death, or gets run over by the car, or freezes to death. Every action toward the goal is conditioned, but this doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. When meditation does not go as wished, that itself is a great opportunity to see Anatta if there is enough wisdom to reflect in such way. Cetana is conditioned, sure. But this doesn't mean that it doesn't occur or that it doesn't intend wrongly along the way. Its the matter of proper causes being set for proper results. P.S. i don't live in Edmonton, i live in a city nearby. Even if i lived in the same city, i have big enough problems with health and prefer to type over the net. With best wishes, Alex #121341 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cetasika in daily life - moha moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: > D: I had a look at Wiki's 'kilesa' presentation and recognize its > use in a > wide sense.. > Do we agree that all kileasa have their roots in lobha, dosa and moha? -------- N: But we have to distinguish them severally. For instance, conceit does not have as root dosa, only lobha and moha. -------- D: yes , let's settle with 'have their roots in tanha' > > ( D: It is not clear to me in which way the 10 kilesas are > different > in > function/ nature from the 10 unwholesome cetasikas , of which > > they are > identical by name (?) ... so far the kilesas appear to me > as an> unnecessary new classification ...(tautological)>> ------ N: They are not different in nature, but they are set apart as a group. I do not see this as superfluous. ------> > D: Now, as we are talking about the 4 unwholesome universals , i.e. > Moha , > Ahirika, Anottappa , Uddhacca, > how would you suggest to recognize them as such group , > distinguished from > the other three groups of unwholesome cetasikas? ----- N: As universal akusala cetasikas, sadharana akusala cetasikas. They are not classified as a specific group, since they are always present. ------ D: not clear to me , Nina. Excluding moha /avijja , my memory tells me that there have been lots of moments lacking ahirika, anottapa and uddhacca.In fact this very moment I recognize some restlessness only . Indeed these three seem to me better grouped under occasionals, than under universals. Does the commentary explain the background the grouping? I try to understand the system , in which way the grouping has been made for the 52 cetasikas... assuming not without good reason with Metta Dieter #121342 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How to develop right understanding? nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 12-dec-2011, om 20:41 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > How to develop satipatthana? ------- N: I thought of you when reading to Lodewijk from Cetasikas, CH 10, Right Effort of the eightfold Path. Lodewijk also has the same question as you. Quote: We may think time and again of the urgency of mindfulness, but in spite of that we can notice that sati very seldom arises. We are impatient and we find it difficult to persevere with the development of satipat. t. h ana. The suttas mention several fac- tors which hinder ³exertion, application, striving². We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Tens, Chapter II, par4, Obstruction) about five mental obstructions which cause wholesome qualities to decline: Herein a monk has doubts and waverings about the Teacher. He is not drawn to him, he is not sure about him. . . Again, monks, a monk has doubts about the Dhamma, about the Sangha ( the Order of monks), about the training . . . he is vexed with his comrades in the brahma-life, displeased, troubled in mind, come to a stop. In a 76 Cetasikas monk who is thus, his mind inclines not to exertion, to application, to perseverance, to striving . . . We may doubt whether there can be an ³ariyan Sangha², people who have developed the eightfold Path and attained enlightenment. We may have doubts about the usefulness of sati right now, of mindfulness of visible ob ject, sound or any other reality which appears. At the moment of doubt there cannot be right effort. There will be less doubt and more confidence if we listen to the Dhamma as it is explained by the right person, if we read the scriptures, if we consider what we learnt and test the meaning of it ourselves. We can prove the truth of what we learnt by the application of the Dhamma in daily life. .... When one has just started to develop satipat.t.haana, sati does not often arise. One may wonder how many years it will take before there can be any progress. When we think of the goal with desire or when we are afraid of failure there is akusala citta. We may not notice that there is any progress, but even if there is sometimes one moment of mindfulness of a reality appearing through one of the six doors, right understanding can develop little by little. Sati which arises falls away, but it is never lost, it conditions the arising again of sati later on. Instead of having desire for enlightenment we should see the value of right understanding at this moment. When sati arises it is accompanied by kusala viriya, right effort, which performs its function of strengthening and supporting citta and the accompanying cetasikas, and in that way there can be perseverance to develop right understanding. It takes great patience and courage, even heroic fortitude, to persevere with mindfulness of all kinds of realities which appear, also of akusala dhammas we would rather shun as ob ject of mindfulness. Right understanding cannot be developed within a short time. ---------- Nina. #121343 From: "philip" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How to develop right understanding? philofillet Hi Nina, Lukas, all > >It takes > great patience and courage, even heroic fortitude, to persevere with > mindfulness of > all kinds of realities which appear, also of akusala dhammas we would > rather shun I used go wonder why such words as "courage" and "heroism" were used to describe the correct development of datipattgana. What's so courageous about understanding seeing now, or visible object, or any other reality, it seemed so easygoing, I thought people were too content with too little. But as we gradually come to understand better how lobha would otherwise (and sometimes still does. it is so tricky)drive us to seek fast results, the aspect of courage. Whatever leads us away from the present moment is lobha. How comfortable it would be, for example, to "generate metta" to will away unfriendly feelings, how nice it would be to use "mindfulness of breathing" to will away restlessness. But right understanding chooses not to escape from akusala realities, fight understanding understands that dhammas cannot be managed. except by self. At such moments understanding is developing, little by little, but not in ways we can see easily. How happy the serious, disciplined meditator, sitting with erect spine and erect will. penetrating realities in his noble practice! How happy is he who has "vipasanna nanas" accomplished and noted in his meditator mind! We can't have that sense of dramatic accomplishnent, we have been spared that delusion. Little by little understanding develops, little by little, a fleet moment of awareness of a reality tgat is gone before we know it, then the onrush of thinking, it feels hopeless someitimes. But is the self tgat feels hopeless at such times, not correct understanding. The feelings of doubt will always come and go, no control o er that, or any other unwelcome dhamma. But understanding patiently forges on... I'm not worried about you Lukas, if you keep listenibg and discussing, no doubt for me there. Phil #121344 From: "philip" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visible object at Cooran / Was Suffering doesn't always announce itself. philofillet Hi Nina I will return to the vism tgread, thank you again for your reply, ut for now thus post brought up a question for me a out visible object: > S: I think the best we can say is that it's just that which is seen > exactly as it is. As soon as we start to discuss any detail about visible > object (or colour), even 'meaningless blobs of colour', it's just thinking > about it and I don't believe it helps awareness to be aware. Ph: I would agree immediately but last night I was reading Expositor, all those details on visible object, even shape, long, circular etc... Sarah addresses this point: > S: And if awareness arises and is aware of a visible object or sound or > taste or any other reality, it is aware of that reality just as it is. So > when we use concepts (as the Dhammasangani does) to describe visible > object or other dhammas, it's merely for communication and to indicate > that not only are visible objects different from the cittas which > experience them or from other rupas included in rupa khandha, but also to > show that each visible object has a particular characteristic which > distinguishes it from any other one. Ph: When you have time could I ask you to add some thoughts to this? I can't understand why the presentation of visible object in Expositor (and of course Dhammasangani) include so many details which I would think could only result from the working of sanna .. Thanks Phil. > > Sometimes we appreciate some aspect of the teachings and then start > thinking or having doubts.... > > >Courage, patience, and good cheer! :-) > .... > S: Yes! > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > #121345 From: "philip" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visible object at Cooran / Was Suffering doesn't always announce itself. philofillet Hi again Nina Never mind, I think I understand Sarah's answer. Whatever appears. The details in Dhs. and Atth. just point out that visible object varies. Phil #121346 From: "colette_aube" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment, just like now! colette_aube Hi Sarah, > S: As soon as the last moment of experience of this life falls away, it is followed by the first moment of experience of the next life. colette: EXACTLY. I clearly recall that there was NO SEPARATION BETWEEN CONSCIOUSNESSES. I have a memory of going to bed the night before the accident then I remember the actuality of a different reality. Then, wham, I wake up, about a month later, in the hospital. only 60 seconds, gotta go. toodles, colette ) without any experiencing of any sounds at all. > > Metta > > Sarah > ==== > #121347 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:45 am Subject: All Intentions are Causal! bhikkhu5 Friends: Phenomena that are Causes, Effects, or Neither: Which are the mental states, that are causes? Good and bad states, belonging to the worlds of sense desire, to the planes of fine material form, to the formless realms, and to the supra-mundane states: That is the cluster of feelings, perceptions, mental constructions and the cluster of the manifold and variable kinds of consciousness... These are the phenomena, which cause results! Comment: Present mental states conditions and influences future events! Which are the mental states, that are effects? The results of good and bad mental states, which make effects in the worlds of sense desire, in the planes of fine material form, in the formless realms, and in the supra-mundane states: That is the cluster of feelings, perceptions, mental constructions & the cluster of the various types of consciousness... These are the phenomena, which are results! Comment: Mental states are often seeded by and results of past events! Which are the states, that neither are results nor cause results ? Those mental states governing action, which are neither good, nor bad!, nor the results of other prior action, and moreover all form, and finally the unconditioned element of Nibbâna... These are the three phenomena, which neither are results themselves, nor cause any other future effects! Comment: Material form, Nibbâna & inoperative neutral (Kiriya ) actions of the Arahats causes no future effects to arise anywhere at any time... About the cause and effect of intentional states: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/What_is_Neutral.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Creating_Future.htm Source: The 1st canonical Abhidhamma Book: Dhammasanghani: pp 991-993 The Classification of States. The Enumeration of Ultimate Realities. Tr. by U Kyaw Khine. 1999. Sri Satguru Publications. Delhi. Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Intentions are Causal! #121348 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:20 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > S: ...An arahat's cittas still "create" the concepts, think about the concepts, but no illusions of any kind, of course. Timeless, just because they don't arise and fall away. This is what I still do not understand - why is it said that pannatti don't fall away? I understand that they don't rise and fall like dhammas, but they don't continue to exist when citta falls away and thus is not "thinking of them." So to say they are timeless seems kind of strange to me. I just want to make sure that it is not being said that they continue to exist when citta falls away, because if that is the case, where are they? Citta is "thinking" of "car," and when it falls away, does not the thought of "car" fall away as well? Doesn't it become engaged again by the next deluded citta, which takes up the thought of "car" again? If so, why call it timeless? Why not just say that it is a thought-creation rather than a dhamma? I hope you can clear this up for me. The rest of what you said made good sense to me, and I appreciate the information. Thanks, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #121349 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:24 pm Subject: Re: three jokes epsteinrob Hi Colette. Scott said all the jhana stuff was nonsense, not me. I was complaining to him about him saying it. See below. Thanks, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette_aube" wrote: > > Hi Robert E., > > "non-sense"? Why is it that you are enslaving yourself to NAME & FORM? Jhana is nothing more than a label upon which Buddhists and Hindu Yoga practitioners attempt to describe the indescribable sensation of a Jhana. Below you can see that Connie says she'd like to see me talk about the jhana factors, etc.; then Scott says it's nonsense: > > > c: "...Otherwise, I'd like to see you bring it on and talk about the jhana factors and jhana cittas and all that groovy-cool stuff. Just please, 'strive for precision in your speech'." > > > > > > Scott: Agreed. No precision at all. Just nonsense. I'll have to get my stupid computer fixed now. Bye. Here, I am complaining about what they said: > > All the stuff about jhana is nonsense, no precision? All the things that Buddha said about development of the jhanas is imprecise nonsense? On what basis are you saying that? > > > > Your computer must indeed be stupid to type stuff like this. It's ridiculous. > > > > Best, > > Rob E. > > > > = = = = = = = > > > #121350 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, >________________________________ > From: Robert E >> S: ...An arahat's cittas still "create" the concepts, think about the concepts, but no illusions of any kind, of course. Timeless, just because they don't arise and fall away. > >This is what I still do not understand - why is it said that pannatti don't fall away? .... S: They don't arise, so how can they fall away? They are merely thought about, imagined. They don't exist. .... >I understand that they don't rise and fall like dhammas, but they don't continue to exist when citta falls away and thus is not "thinking of them." So to say they are timeless seems kind of strange to me. .... S: They are not paramattha dhammas, so they never existed in the first place, so never a question of continuing to exist. They are just ideas and ideas are not subject to rise and fall or time. The thinking rises and falls, but the ideas which are imagined, such as "Sarah" or "Rob E" are just ideas imagined by the existing thinking only. The visible objects that the thinking thinks about arise and fall away, but not "Sarah" and "Rob". They can never be known by insight for this reason - just thought about only. .... > >I just want to make sure that it is not being said that they continue to exist when citta falls away, because if that is the case, where are they? ... S: They NEVER exist. ... >Citta is "thinking" of "car," and when it falls away, does not the thought of "car" fall away as well? Doesn't it become engaged again by the next deluded citta, which takes up the thought of "car" again? .... S: Again, just thinking which arises and falls away and thinks about whatever there are conditions for it to think about. This is why in the development of satipatthana, it's the paramattha dhammas we're interested in. Trying to "work out" the concepts or ideas only leads to more thinking. ... >If so, why call it timeless? Why not just say that it is a thought-creation rather than a dhamma? I hope you can clear this up for me. ... S: "It's a thought-creation rather than a dhamma" and such pannatti are said in the texts to be timeless in the sense that they don't arise or fall away, because THEY DON'T EXIST! ... > >The rest of what you said made good sense to me, and I appreciate the information. .... S: Good qus - it is really important to understand the distinction between thinking and concepts and to develop awareness of thinking. metta Sarah ====== #121351 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:50 pm Subject: Re: kamma and this moment kenhowardau Hi Sarah, --------- <. . .> S: Why not tell us more about the business and give some dhamma reminders at the same time? A bit like my hospital visits - all daily life, all dhammas..... ---------- KH: Thanks for your interest. I have invented something that I think there will be some demand for – when people find out what it is. The trouble is getting my invention patented, manufactured and marketed. Internet forums warn about unscrupulous "let us help you with your invention" companies, and so I was very careful in choosing the right industrial designer. And, you guessed it, I got ripped off. The new people I am with seem much more trustworthy, but I am still worried about over servicing. It does seem to be standard practice in the business world. As for Dhamma reminders, they arrived none too soon at 3 o'clock this morning. After pacing the floor unable to sleep, I was tempted to try some sort of formal wise-consideration to help me stop worrying and get back to sleep. But then I remembered: belief in the efficacy of formal practice is wrong view and one of the ten fetters. What was I thinking! The need for a formal practice – the need to do something about dhammas – is conditioned by clinging to results. And, of course, by belief in a self that would experience those results. It doesn't matter one iota whether our worldly plans succeed or fail. Either way there are only dhammas. It also occurred to me that worldly plans were child's play compared to dhammas. Unsuccessful plans can hang around for years before they fail, whereas the presently arisen dhamma-arammana is doomed to instant destruction. And that is the only reality I will ever know. As it happened I went straight back to sleep, but let's not give formal practice any credit for that! :-) Ken H PS: I have bought one of those Wi Fi things, so being at my mother's place – as I am now – is no longer an excuse for not posting. #121352 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > S: Yes, lobha is the tricky master and the tricky student..... > > Ph: I've wanted to ask, I can understand why lobha is said to be the master....but why the student? .... S: The deeply accumulated lobha which follows one wherever one goes, so the tendency is always there with us, like the student. Lobha is like the master directing us in the wrong way, like lobha, always attaching to sense objects. Without the development of right understanding of dhammas appearing through the senses, lobha will always be the student and the master. SN 35: 151 "A Student" (Bodhi transl) " 'Bhikkhus, this holy life is lived without students and without a teacher (anantevaasikam ida.m bhikkhave brahmacariya.m vussati anaacariyaka.m)*. A bhikkhu who has no students and no teacher dwells happily, in comfort. " 'And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu who has students and a teacher dwell in suffering, not in comfort? Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu has seen a form with the eye, there arise in him evil unwholesome states, memories and intentions connected with the fetters (sarasa"nkappaa sa.myojaniyaa). They dwell within him. Since those evil unwholesome states dwell within him, he is called 'one who has students.' They assail him. Since evil unwholesome states assail him, he is called 'one who has a teacher.' " [S: *B.Bodhi gives a footnote to the Pali: "This is a riddle which turns upon two puns difficult to replicate in English. A 'student' (antevaasi) is literally 'one who dwells within.' and thus (as the text explains below) one for whom defilements do not dwell within (na antovasanti) is said to be 'without students.' The word 'teacher' (aacariya) is here playfully connected with the verb 'to assail' (samudaaarati); thus one unassailed by defilements is said to be 'without a teacher.' Spk (S: the commentary) glosses 'amantevaasika.m' with 'anto vasanakilesavirahita.m ('devoid of defilements dwelling within'), and 'anaacariyaka.m' with 'aacara.nakilesavirahita.m ('devoid of the 'assailing' defilements')."] S: The sutta continues: " 'Further, when a bhikkhu has heard a sound with the ear....cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind...he is called 'one who has a teacher.' " 'It is in this way that a bhikkhu who has students and a teacher dwells in suffering, not in comfort. " 'And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu who has no students and no teacher dwell happily, in comfort? Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu has seen a form with the eye, there do not arise in him evil unwholesome states, memories and intentions connected with the fetters. They do not dwell within him. Since those evil unwholesome states do not dwell within him, he is called 'one who has no students'. They do not assail him. Since evil unwholesome states do not assail him, he is called 'one who has no teacher.' " 'Further, when a bhikkhu has heard a sound with the ear.... cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind....he is called 'one who has no teacher.' " 'It is in this way, bhikkhus, that a bhikkhu who has no students and no teacher dwells happily, in comfort. " 'Bhikkhus, this holy life is lived without students and without a teacher. A bhikkhu who has students and a teacher dwells in suffering, not in comfort. A bhikkhu who has no students and no teacher dwells happily, in comfort.' " S: Why would anyone want students or a teacher just to dwell in more suffering? Time to live happily without students or a teacher. Metta Sarah ===== #121353 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How to develop right understanding? sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, >________________________________ > From: Lukas >p.s >When is the closest meeting with Acharn Sujin? .... S: Most Sat afternoons, but they missed many because of the floods and trips away. 20-26 Jan we'll be in Bkk. 23rd-25th we go with KS on a trip to Kaeng Krachan. Also Ann, Phil and Jessica intend to join, as well as those in Bkk. If anyone else wishes to join us, pls let me or Sukin know asap. Metta Sarah ====== #121354 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cetasika in daily life - moha nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 13-dec-2011, om 18:03 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: yes , let's settle with 'have their roots in tanha' ------- N:Here you are thinking of D.O., and we can say: are conditioned by ta.nhaa. But I was referring to the twelve akusala cittas that have different roots, hetus: some are rooted in lobha and moha, some in dosa and moha, and some in moha alone. As you know, there are six hetus: lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha. The citta that is rooted in hetus is condiitoned by them by way of hetu-paccaya, and this is a conascent condition. This brings me to what I just heard on a recording this morning: the characteristic of udhacca is hard to know, it is very weak. All akusala cittas are accompanied by uddhacca, but the second type of moha-muulacitta is called: accompanied by uddhacca, uddhacca sampayutta.m. This is so because in that case its characteristic is more evident. The first moha-muulacitta is accompanied by doubt and when that arises, doubt is more obvious and the characteristic of uddhacca does not appear, although it is present. ------ > > ------> > > D: Now, as we are talking about the 4 unwholesome universals , > i.e. > Moha , > Ahirika, Anottappa , Uddhacca, > > how would you suggest to recognize them as such group , > > distinguished from > the other three groups of unwholesome cetasikas? > ----- > N: As universal akusala cetasikas, sadharana akusala cetasikas. > They are not classified as a specific group, since they are always > present. > ------ > > D: not clear to me , Nina. Excluding moha /avijja , my memory tells > me that there have been lots of moments lacking ahirika, anottapa > and uddhacca.In fact this very moment I recognize some restlessness > only . > Indeed these three seem to me better grouped under occasionals, > than under universals. ------- N: We have to add: akusala universals, different from the universals arising with every citta. When you think that they are absent: their characteristics do not appear, but they are there with every akusala citta, very treacherous. By the way, uddhacca is not the same as what we mean in conventional language by restlessness or agitation. There may be lobha-muulacitta accompanied by indifferent feeliong, for example when you take up a pen, and this does not feel restless. But since uddhacca is present with every akusala citta it is there. -------- > > D: Does the commentary explain the background the grouping? > I try to understand the system , in which way the grouping has been > made for the 52 cetasikas... assuming not without good reason ------ N: It is not only the commentary, but we find the groups also in the suttas, like the aasavas, oghas, yoghas, latent tendencies, etc. They all remind us of the danger of defilements. The intoxicants (aasavas) are rotten all the time, we are flooded by the oghas, quite overcome, and yoked by the yokes, and the latent tendencies are accumulated in each citta, ready to cause trouble at any time. They are not abstract notions, they are occurring now, in daily life. There is only an escape by the development of right understanding of whatever dhamma appears now, also when it is akusala. We have to be very patient. ------ Nina. #121355 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 12-dec-2011, om 23:50 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > So how can > > > meaningful language even take place? > > ------ > > N: This is because of sa~n~naa, remembrance, that accompanies each > > citta. > > ------ > > R: So a single written word [visual rupa] or spoken syllable > [object of hearing] will be interpreted by a citta process and then > remembered by sanna to add to the next sound-meaning or written- > meaning? It must be very complicated, esp. given the changes in > semantic meaning in different contexts and changes of meaning with > nuance, context, tone of voice, facial expression, etc. Sanna must > be accumulating knowledge of many thousands of rupas and namas for > each sentence...? > ------- N: Each word consists of different sounds, and for each sound, a new process. Kh Sujin explained this long ago in sri Lanka with the name: E-li-sa-beth. She said that everybody will make different assocaiotions with the person they know of that name. Sa~n~naa marks and remembers and this illustrates the incredible amount of processes of cittas arising and falling away. We cannot trace this. Ruupa is not accumulated but remembered. ----- > > > Will this also explain how a concept is coordinated by sanna from > whatever processes are necessary to recreate and maintain it over > time? If I am thinking of my "car" and "going for a drive" then > many images and thoughts about what a car is and what is involved > in driving must be assembled and coordinated by sanna for each > thought-process, and, while thinking, involve actions to plan to go > to my car, then to actually get up and go to the car, etc., while > referring back to the thought and meaning of the concept and > keeping the idea in mind. Would that be correct, and is that how > the meaning or interpretation of pannatti are continued over the > many citta processes that arise and fall? > ------ N: Yes. But you had some trouble about concept being timeless. It simply means: not subject to arise and fall, as Sarah explained. Concept is an object of citta and when citta falls away, there is not longer that citta which thinks of it. A following citta thinks again about a concept and each citta is accompanied by sa~n~naa. Because of perverted sa~n~naa, sa~n~naa vippallasa we believe that concepts can stay. Does this not happen all the time when we believe that a person is around? Concepts are part of daily life. We should not separate daily life from satipa.t.thaana. This reminds me of a remark you made about yogha and Tai chi. You have been a Yogha teacher, and besides, you have a theater school, but you never mentioned this. Are you still working in this field? I remember a book you were writing. Sarah just said to Ken H: S: Why not tell us more about the business and give some dhamma reminders at the same time? A bit like my hospital visits - all daily life, all dhammas..... I like the combinations Sarah makes of daily events and dhamma reminders. ------- Nina. > #121356 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 12-dec-2011, om 23:56 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > Phil: > Well, in the talks I listen to there are lots and lots of > assumptions made about the cittas of meditators, and I think > sometimes in your books as well. But I have heard A Sujin on > occasion say there is no way to know, as you do here. Lew te, > that's best. And definitely no doubt that it is only by knowing our > own cittas that we can get out. > ----- N: I do not remember being personal in my books. I want to avoid being personal, since I like to discuss Dhamma only, not persons. Sometimes we cannot avoid quoting someone, for example, saying, "as Phil expressed so well", and this is with appreciation, a kind of daana, anumodana daana. ------- > R: > There has been some dispute about what external satipatthana means > in Buddhist circles. Is there an agreed-upon understanding of it > here? I would be interested to know whether it involves one's own > external rupas, or whether it is related to other people, as some > have interpreted. > -------- > N: You are thinking of being aware of external citta, feeling, etc. as we read in the satipa.t.thaana sutta. We discussed this with Kh Sujin. When you see someone crying you may become sad too and then you are reminded being aware of the citta with dosa. The satipa.t.thaana sutta is full of reminders to bring us back to reality when we are distracted. You cannot be aware of someone else's feelings, only of 'your own' but it is a reminder to be aware. Our neighbour just tells us that her husband is not well at all and now in hospital. We feel so to say her pain, but in reality: a reminder of being aware of dosa and worry appearing now. In our life there are so many, many reminders. Is we only see them and take them in the right way. ------ Nina. #121357 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visible object at Cooran / Was Suffering doesn't always announce itself. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 14-dec-2011, om 1:40 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Never mind, I think I understand Sarah's answer. Whatever appears. > The details in Dhs. and Atth. just point out that visible object > varies. ------ N: You got that right. I think it is wonderful, all these details, we see how daily it is. There is not only grey colour, or one colour, there are so many. An ocean of colours and we get lost. But it is only that which appears through eyesense. ----- Nina. #121358 From: "philip" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:04 am Subject: Re: Visible object at Cooran / Was Suffering doesn't always announce itself. philofillet Hi Nina > > Never mind, I think I understand Sarah's answer. Whatever appears. > > The details in Dhs. and Atth. just point out that visible object > > varies. > ------ > N: You got that right. I think it is wonderful, all these details, we > see how daily it is. There is not only grey colour, or one colour, > there are so many. An ocean of colours and we get lost. But it is > only that which appears through eyesense. This from Expositor, p.416, after that presentation of so many details: "Thus all visible objects, though of different sorts, such as blue green, etc, are not specifically divided as regards their characteristics, etc. For all this matter has the characteristic of striking the eye..." The only characteristic of visual object that is of real importance is that it strikes the eye. A. Sujin often stresses about rupa, "that which knows nothing." I am sure I will come across that in Expositor as well. Thanks, I'll be back to the Vism. thread on the weekend. Phil #121359 From: "philip" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" philofillet Hi Sarah Thanks for your explanation. > SN 35: 151 "A Student" (Bodhi transl) > > " 'Bhikkhus, this holy life is lived without students and without a teacher (anantevaasikam ida.m bhikkhave brahmacariya.m vussati anaacariyaka.m)*. A bhikkhu who has no students and no teacher dwells happily, in comfort. Without studying it more carefully, we could fall into misunderstanding of it in the way we can with "with oneself as one's refuge and island" or however that goes. We have to understand that there is no bhikkhu to be found, no student to be found, no teacher to be found - only dhammas. Phil #121360 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -Uddhacca /Restlessness moellerdieter Dear Sarah , you wrote: In case this wasn't answered: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > I can't find Metta within the 52 Cetasikas , but suspect it may stand behind Adosa . Would you say that is correct ? D: it wasn't answered, possibly by misunderstanding. Thanks for attention , Sarah. ..... S: Yes, it is included in adosa. Adosa arises with all wholesome cittas. When the object is a being, a person, then the adosa which accompanies the citta is metta. In other words, when we think of other beings or people, if there is no metta arising at such times, then the citta is akusala. D: what about the case of neither dosa or adosa , i.e. indifference? Our ordinary scenario without necessarily akusala Citta /akusala kamma ( apart from those people we like) Of the 4 of Brahmavihara , Karuna and Mudita are identified as 2 Illimitables whereas Upekkha is stated among the 19 Beautiful Mental Factors (incl. adosa) .... (> If not , where else to find the state of 'all embrassing kindness' (Nyanatiloka), or ' kindly thought, a heart full of love D i.167; iii.237; Sn 507;to be friendly or sympathize with, friendly, benevolent, kind as adj. at D iii.191 , sympathetic, showing love towards It 22 ' (all for Metta ,see Pali Text Society) ? .... S: Yes, adosa cetasika, metta in these examples because the object is other being(s). D: Question: when we include metta in adosa cetasika , why not karuna and mudita? S:Many, many opportunities during the day, like now! D: when the heart is open .. ;-) with Metta Dieter #121361 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) moellerdieter Dear Sarah , you wrote: Where would you place avijja in this life if it has gone..? The delusion exists and drives the kamma force, doesn't it? .... S: Yes. The first link refers to the past avijja was the condition for the kamma which caused the birth in this life. In other words, avijja is the cause of the whole wheel of becoming. Avijja now conditions more kamma and more becoming in future. For example, the bhava in D.O. refers to present kamma conditioned by avijja and lobha. On and on, kilesa vatta, kamma vatta, vipaka vatta - the three rounds.... ..... > As far as I know, nowhere in the canon is stated that avijja has completey gone..(before enlightenment) ..... S: Avijja arises with every akusala citta and in effect conditions the entire round of samsara. It is though the abandoning of avijja on becoming an arahat that the cause of samsara and future births is cut. D: if avijja would arise with every akusala , then it would have been mentioned as a cteasika. Mentioned is moha ..an universal cetasika , which place we need to keep in mind within the procees of D.O. Avijja conditions sankhara .. conditions.. the 5 khandas , i.e. Citta, Cetasika and Rupa , ......etc. vedana condition tanha ( with the root moha). Ignorance and kamma force/volition conditions the citta of cetasika and rupa . That is accumulated past , including all lives up to the very moment (without interruption of the samsara cycle ) and our acting in response present the moment here and now. That we are not directly conscious of avijja and sankhara , does not mean that both are gone ... ( we would be enlightened if they were) S:( Our discussion was about the first link of D.O. which in particular refers to the past avijja which conditioned the present becoming.) ... +++++ > > S: The khandas refer to all conditioned dhammas. Sankhara khandha includes all cetasikas apart from sanna and vedana which have their own khandhas. So, as Nina stressed, the context for a term is very important > > > > D: yes, my point is that sankhara khanda , as part of the nama khandas (4th place) , involves momentary volition (in respect to the 6 senses media) ..... S: The "nama" in "nama-rupa" referred to in D.O. refers specifically to the vipaka cetasikas accompanying patisandhi (birth consciousness) as a result of past kamma and subsequent vipaka cittas, such as seeing and hearing. So the "momentary volition" included in this nama-rupa link, would refer to the "result cetana" accompanying moments of seeing and hearing, like now, for example. It does not refer to subsequent "reactions" or kamma. D: momentary volition is expressed by the cetasikas , right? It is conditioned by avijja sankhara (past kamma), presenting the 6senses media to which we 'react' (new kamma) .. ("where ill is there is action") SThe nama in "4th place" only includes those cetasikas accompanying patisandhi (birth) consciousness and subsequent vipaka cittas in this life. So, yes, at a moment of seeing consciousness, the seven universal cetasikas accompanying seeing are included in "4th place nama", but not those accompanying attachment to that seeing, for example. There is cetana, momentary volition, with every citta, so I agree that this is included. D: good to agree ;-) > As for the relevance, how about avijja now? Most the day, there's no understanding, no awareness at all of avijja which arises with all unwholesome cittas - i.e. all those javana cittas not involved with dana, sila or bhavana D: we only get the 'echo of ' of avijja , it turns out as tanha (by the delusion (moha) of I -want/do not want) > > D: The point of not knowing is that we are not aware about , though there is as well the specific aspect of ignorance : not wanting to know . > The development of disentchantment , dispassion and so detachment is without doubt hard work of insight practise , isn't it? .... S: yes, most of the day - avijja, not knowing, not any awareness at all. Just dhammas, not anyone's. The development of disenchantment, detachment and so on occurs as insight, as panna, develops D: it develops by laying the foundation of mindfulness (as in detail stated by the Maha Satipatthana Sutta) . S:nsight practise"? No self to practise or do anything. Through understanding, insight develops, that's all. Appreciating that dhammas are anatta, beyond anyone's control conditions more disenchantment, more dispassion, more detachment. So useless to want it to develop! D: there is nothing else than the delusioned self ,which can follow the Path training .. yes it needs understanding , an understanding which provides the base for penetrating the issue 'by heart' in order to achieve disentchantment, dispassion, detachment by heart . For that we need to practise as described by the cure of suffering. Take a smoker for example : he/she understands that smoking is unhealthy , but in order to stop tough discipline /work is necessary. with Metta Dieter #121362 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) upasaka_howard Hi, dieter (and Sarah) - In a message dated 12/14/2011 12:40:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: D: if avijja would arise with every akusala , then it would have been mentioned as a cteasika. Mentioned is moha ..an universal cetasika , which place we need to keep in mind within the procees of D.O. =================================== Nyanatiloka's dictionary gives "moha: 'delusion', is one of the 3 unwholesome roots (_mÅ«la_ (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/muula.htm) ). The best known synonym is _avijjÄ_ (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/avijjaa.htm) ." With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121363 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) moellerdieter Hi Howard ( and Sarah ), you wrote: 'D: if avijja would arise with every akusala , then it would have been mentioned as a cteasika. Mentioned is moha ..an universal cetasika , which place we need to keep in mind within the procees of D.O. =================================== Nyanatiloka's dictionary gives "moha: 'delusion', is one of the 3 unwholesome roots (_mÅ«la_ (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/muula.htm) ). The best known synonym is _avijjÄ_ (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/avijjaa.htm) ." D: I know ,Howard. But That does not change what I said above : the place we need to keep in mind within the procees of D.O Moha ,the cetasika is not avijja though synonym use besides D.O. with Metta Dieter #121364 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 12/14/2011 1:24:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard ( and Sarah ), you wrote: 'D: if avijja would arise with every akusala , then it would have been mentioned as a cteasika. Mentioned is moha ..an universal cetasika , which place we need to keep in mind within the procees of D.O. =================================== Nyanatiloka's dictionary gives "moha: 'delusion', is one of the 3 unwholesome roots (_mÅ«la_ (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/muula.htm) ). The best known synonym is _avijjÄ_ (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/avijjaa.htm) ." D: I know ,Howard. But That does not change what I said above : the place we need to keep in mind within the procees of D.O Moha ,the cetasika is not avijja though synonym use besides D.O. ------------------------------------------------- HCW: I'm confused, Dieter. First of all, though occurring with every unwholesome citta, moha is not universal. The seven universal cetasikas are as follows: 1. phassa 2. vedana 3. sanna 4. cetana 5. ekaggata 6. jivitindriya 7. manasikara Secondly, you had also written "if avijja would arise with every akusala, then it would have been mentioned as a cetasika." But since avijja = moha, it IS a cetasika. (Or do you mean something else?) As for the place in D. O. of moha/avijja, it wins "pride of place," getting first mention. As you know, it directly conditions sankhara, the willing and fabricating operations. ------------------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121365 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) moellerdieter Hi Howard, you wrote: 'HCW: I'm confused, Dieter. First of all, though occurring with every unwholesome citta, moha is not universal. The seven universal cetasikas are as follows: 1. phassa .. snip D: what you mention are the 7 universals of ethically variable cetasikas , moha belongs to the 4 unwholesome universals of the 14 unwholesome akusala cetasikas , the group we are just discussing with the cetasika in daily life-project. HCW:Secondly, you had also written "if avijja would arise with every akusala, then it would have been mentioned as a cetasika." But since avijja = moha, it IS a cetasika. (Or do you mean something else?) As for the place in D. O. of moha/avijja, it wins "pride of place," getting first mention. As you know, it directly conditions sankhara, the willing and fabricating operations D: the difference is that the cetasikas belong to the 5 Khanda group which are conditioned by avijja -sankhara, which are not. Moha appears as root of tanha (lobha , dosa , moha) . Of course the delusion is related to avijja, but in D.O. it appears as base part of thirst. The point is : tanha , the urge , a mental formation, may be recognized , but avijja in respect of not knowing , not having penetrated the 4 Noble Truths has a special meaning of being abolished (gradually) by developing panna. with Metta Dieter #121366 From: "colette_aube" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:35 am Subject: Re: three jokes colette_aube Thank you for correcting my mistake. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Colette. > Scott said all the jhana stuff was nonsense, not me. I was complaining to him about him saying it. See below. > > Thanks, > RobE. <....> #121367 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 12/14/2011 2:18:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, you wrote: 'HCW: I'm confused, Dieter. First of all, though occurring with every unwholesome citta, moha is not universal. The seven universal cetasikas are as follows: 1. phassa .. snip D: what you mention are the 7 universals of ethically variable cetasikas , moha belongs to the 4 unwholesome universals of the 14 unwholesome akusala cetasikas , the group we are just discussing with the cetasika in daily life-project. -------------------------------------------- HCW: I see. Thank you. It is universal in a restricted sense. ---------------------------------------------- HCW:Secondly, you had also written "if avijja would arise with every akusala, then it would have been mentioned as a cetasika." But since avijja = moha, it IS a cetasika. (Or do you mean something else?) As for the place in D. O. of moha/avijja, it wins "pride of place," getting first mention. As you know, it directly conditions sankhara, the willing and fabricating operations D: the difference is that the cetasikas belong to the 5 Khanda group which are conditioned by avijja -sankhara, which are not. Moha appears as root of tanha (lobha , dosa , moha) . Of course the delusion is related to avijja, but in D.O. it appears as base part of thirst. The point is : tanha , the urge , a mental formation, may be recognized , but avijja in respect of not knowing , not having penetrated the 4 Noble Truths has a special meaning of being abolished (gradually) by developing panna. --------------------------------------------- HCW: I'm afraid you are miles beyond me in this. I just don't understand. -------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121368 From: "philip" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:11 am Subject: Ayatanas and dhatus philofillet Hi Nina Sometimes the Buddha teaches about 18 ayatanas, sometimes about 18 dhatus. They seem to refer to the same dhammas, but I assume the emphasis is different, for example with ayatanas the emphasis is on meeting place in the process of seeing etc, the point from which so much proliferation occurs, with dhatus it is just nama and rupa, a more basic enumeration. Both classifications help us better understand anatta, that is the most important thing, I know. When you have a minute could I ask you to add some thoughts on this topic? Thanks. Phil #121369 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > >If so, why call it timeless?��Why not just say that it is a thought-creation rather than a dhamma?��I hope you can clear this up for me. > ... > S: "It's a thought-creation rather than a dhamma" and such pannatti are said in the texts to be timeless in the sense that they don't arise or fall away, because THEY DON'T EXIST! Okay, that is more clear to me. When it is said that they are timeless and such, it sometimes seems to give the weird implication that pannatti continue to float around in some "thought-realm" while dhammas continue to go up and down. But good to know that is not what is meant. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121370 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:57 pm Subject: Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Nina! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------ > N: Yes. But you had some trouble about concept being timeless. It > simply means: not subject to arise and fall, as Sarah explained. > Concept is an object of citta and when citta falls away, there is not > longer that citta which thinks of it. A following citta thinks again > about a concept and each citta is accompanied by sa~n~naa. Because of > perverted sa~n~naa, sa~n~naa vippallasa we believe that concepts can > stay. Does this not happen all the time when we believe that a person > is around? I think I see a little better how this works: the "thinking" that is part of that citta ceases with the fall of the citta; but since the "object of thinking" was nothing apart from the thought, it doesn't do anything; neither rises nor falls, because it is only invoked when the thought is taking place. Thinking does take place, but the concept has no independent basis for existence, so it really doesn't do anything. > Concepts are part of daily life. We should not separate daily life > from satipa.t.thaana. This reminds me of a remark you made about > yogha and Tai chi. You have been a Yogha teacher, and besides, you > have a theater school, but you never mentioned this. Are you still > working in this field? I remember a book you were writing. I am still "working on" the book. It needs some more editing and I haven't been able to get the hours to do it. I've been working on it for around 14 years. Next time I'll start with an outline! This book is too complicated so it needs some restructuring. I've had some volunteer editors over the years who did some very good work, and I rewrote a lot, but still more to do... It's about acting, and I really do want to finish it. My acting school is mostly namas with just a few rupas. I have rented space for my classes for almost 3 decades and have taught the same long-term technique for actors for all those years. I enjoy doing this work; it's a nice very detailed system that covers basic technique, scene work and rehearsal technique, character work, film acting, and various other themes. It takes about three years to teach the whole thing. And I do it all in a rented room, so I don't leave a bit "footprint." I could talk about myself all day, but that's more than enough for now. I too like hearing about what people are up to and what their background is. I think it is nice to think of when talking here. Thanks for bringing it up! I won't try to give any "Dhamma tips." I think if I tried, Phil and Scott would beat me to death with their copies of the Atthasalini. :-) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #121371 From: "philip" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:57 pm Subject: The practice disease (transcript, 7/4/07, p.m. pt.3) philofillet Hi all I think this bit of a talk covers a very crucial point, we have to know kusala calm from lobha, not so easy. A.S: "The point is the panna, the development of panna, the understanding of reality right now. And when one hears the word calm, or calmness, it seems like it has be so great. But what about this moment. It can develop little by little too. But right understanding should know the difference between calmness and attachment. How can there be detachment from visible object right now? When one thinks about attachment or calmness one thinks of other things but what about calmness with right understanding and detachment from clinging to visible object right now, instead of thinking about developing calmness. Q: You mean, in this present moment, by accepting the present moment.. A.S: All the teachings concern the detachment from clinging to realities, even to visible object which is now appearing, but how can there be detachment from clinging to visible object, otherwise we think of the other kinds of calmness, like in the forest, or thinking about death and so on, but what about being calm, with right understanding, with detachment from clinging to visible object right now, and this is the path leading to enlightenment, this is the way to be free from the practice disease... *** Ph: This could be the core symptom of the misguided belief in meditation practice, that until there is the first vipasanna nana that knows nama from rupa, so difficult or impossible to know kusala calm from lobha. The quest for "great " calmness, not at all surprising that modern people are so eager for it. But the kusala calm that accompanies, every so briefly, every moment of kusala, along with alobha, that is where progress can come, little by little. But it is not dramatic, doesn't show up from the results gained from practice, and people want tangible results, this jhana or that jhana, this vipasanna nana or that one. They are trapped in that disease, a few escape... The question to ask ourselves is this, do we know kusala calm from akusala attachment to "calm?" If we think we do, or that it's not important to consider, we are probably suffering from the practice disease. Phil #121372 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Focussing. Was:three jokes epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 12-dec-2011, om 23:56 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > > > Phil: > Well, in the talks I listen to there are lots and lots of > > assumptions made about the cittas of meditators, and I think > > sometimes in your books as well. But I have heard A Sujin on > > occasion say there is no way to know, as you do here. Lew te, > > that's best. And definitely no doubt that it is only by knowing our > > own cittas that we can get out. > > > ----- > N: I do not remember being personal in my books. I want to avoid > being personal, since I like to discuss Dhamma only, not persons. > Sometimes we cannot avoid quoting someone, for example, saying, "as > Phil expressed so well", and this is with appreciation, a kind of > daana, anumodana daana. Just want to make sure you know that it was Phil who made this remark, not me. > ------- > > R: > > There has been some dispute about what external satipatthana means > > in Buddhist circles. Is there an agreed-upon understanding of it > > here? I would be interested to know whether it involves one's own > > external rupas, or whether it is related to other people, as some > > have interpreted. > > -------- > > > N: You are thinking of being aware of external citta, feeling, etc. > as we read in the satipa.t.thaana sutta. We discussed this with Kh > Sujin. When you see someone crying you may become sad too and then > you are reminded being aware of the citta with dosa. The > satipa.t.thaana sutta is full of reminders to bring us back to > reality when we are distracted. You cannot be aware of someone else's > feelings, only of 'your own' but it is a reminder to be aware. > Our neighbour just tells us that her husband is not well at all and > now in hospital. We feel so to say her pain, but in reality: a > reminder of being aware of dosa and worry appearing now. > In our life there are so many, many reminders. Is we only see them > and take them in the right way. Thanks, Nina. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #121373 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:04 pm Subject: Re: three jokes epsteinrob Hi Colette. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette_aube" wrote: > > Thank you for correcting my mistake. No problem Colette. Now go get Scott! :-) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Colette. > > Scott said all the jhana stuff was nonsense, not me. I was complaining to him about him saying it. See below. > > > > Thanks, > > RobE. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #121374 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:19 am Subject: Intentions Create the Future! bhikkhu5 Friends: Any Intention is creating moments of Future! Any moment of intentional mental activity creates and conditions the future! Any moment of intentional verbal activity creates and conditions the future! Any moment of intentional bodily activity creates and conditions the future! If the intention behind this thinking, speaking or doing is mixed with either greed, hate, or ignorance or diluted derivatives thereof, this future will inevitably be mixed with resultant states of mental and physical pain… If the intention behind this thinking, speaking & doing is mixed with either non-greed, non-hate, or non-ignorance or dilutions thereof, this future will inevitably be mixed with resultant states of mental and physical pleasure… If the intention behind this thinking, speaking & doing is mixed neither with greed nor with non-greed, neither with hate nor with non-hate,& neither with ignorance nor with non-ignorance, this future will inevitably be mixed with resultant states of neither pain nor pleasure = neutral indifference… Not intending any stills formation of becoming and is not creating any future! Therefore: Be Aware! Watch the intention! Is it mixed with exactly what? Intention is literally seeding and producing moments of your future! No other Creator is found! Silencing intention creates Peace! Becomes About the cause and effect of intentional states: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_is_intention.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/What_is_Neutral.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Resultants.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Intention Produces the Future! #121375 From: "colette_aube" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:52 pm Subject: Re: three jokes colette_aube rough, rough, ooops, sorry, animals can't read, so I should say, ruff ruff, huh? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Colette. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette_aube" wrote: > > > > Thank you for correcting my mistake. > > No problem Colette. Now go get Scott! :-) > > Best, > Rob E. > > = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Colette. > > > Scott said all the jhana stuff was nonsense, not me. I was complaining to him about him saying it. See below. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > RobE. > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = > #121376 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:13 pm Subject: Any intentional choice has Non-Local effects! bhikkhu5 Quantum-Physicist Henry Stapp: Experimental proof of the Kammic principle: The intentional Conscious Choice has Instantaneous Non-Local Effects! http://youtu.be/HJN01s1gOqA Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #121377 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -Uddhacca /Restlessness nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 14-dec-2011, om 17:43 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: Question: when we include metta in adosa cetasika , why not > karuna and mudita? ------ N: Because they have different characteristics. They do not arise with every sobhana citta, like adosa. Karu.na cetasika has as object a person who suffers, and one wants to alleviate suffering. Like Sarah visiting her friend in hospital. But karu.na and mettaa alternate. She wants to help with selfless affection and then mettaa may arise. We have to consider realities moment by moment. Mudita: you rejoice in someone else's prosperity or wellbeing. No jealousy. ------- Nina. #121378 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 14-dec-2011, om 18:40 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: if avijja would arise with every akusala , then it would have > been mentioned as a cteasika. > Mentioned is moha ..an universal cetasika , which place we need to > keep in mind within the procees of D.O. ------ N: Just one point out of your mail to Sarah: Avijjaa is moha cetasika. But in the context of D.O. avijjaa is used. ------- Nina. #121379 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The practice disease (transcript, 7/4/07, p.m. pt.3) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 15-dec-2011, om 3:57 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ph: This could be the core symptom of the misguided belief in > meditation practice, that until there is the first vipasanna nana > that knows nama from rupa, so difficult or impossible to know > kusala calm from lobha. -------- N: What you say is certainly true, but on the other hand we should not forget that there were wise people before the Buddha's enlightenment who could differentiate between kusala calm and lobha. They could attain jhaana. This was because of their accumulations. Difficult but, we have to be honest, not impossible. ------- Nina. #121380 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 15-dec-2011, om 3:57 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > My acting school is mostly namas with just a few rupas. I have > rented space for my classes for almost 3 decades and have taught > the same long-term technique for actors for all those years. I > enjoy doing this work; it's a nice very detailed system that covers > basic technique, scene work and rehearsal technique, character > work, film acting, and various other themes. It takes about three > years to teach the whole thing. And I do it all in a rented room, > so I don't leave a bit "footprint." > > I could talk about myself all day, but that's more than enough for > now. I too like hearing about what people are up to and what their > background is. I think it is nice to think of when talking here. > Thanks for bringing it up! > ------- N: Thank you for sharing your experiences concerning your work. The acting is like experiencing a certain character's emotions. People have to learn to cry and do this with sincerity, difficult. When acting you feel someone else's pain, and this is just as we talked about: in fact we can only be aware of our own feeling, but someone else's feeling was the condition. You have a lot to do with characters, cittas, feelings. Reminders all day. Fascinating. ------- Nina. #121381 From: "philip" Date: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The practice disease (transcript, 7/4/07, p.m. pt.3) philofillet Hi Nina > Difficult but, we have to be honest, not impossible. "Not impossible" sounds fine to me, thanks for the clarification. Phil #121382 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:51 am Subject: Threefold cycle in D.O. nilovg Dear Dieter, Here is a quote from Kh Sujin's Survey re D.O.: ------- Nina. #121383 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) moellerdieter Dear Nina , Howard , Sarah ,all, you wrote: (D: if avijja would arise with every akusala , then it would have > been mentioned as a cteasika.> Mentioned is moha ..an universal cetasika , which place we need to > keep in mind within the procees of D.O.) 'N: Just one point out of your mail to Sarah: Avijjaa is moha cetasika. But in the context of D.O. avijjaa is used.' D: 'but ' a crucial one for understanding.. ;-) avijja (and sankhara) as the condition for the khandas , respectively citta,rupa,cetasika , cannot be taken as cetasika at the same time because same elements cannot condition eachother... (tautolgical - I love that word ;-) ) (Related :the view of avijja-sankhara has completely gone since birth , i.e. is past , not accumulated past , is I.M.H/U.O. wrongly interpretated by previous lives) 'But ' (in the context of D.O. avijjaa is used ' ).. I assume that the specification of citta, cetasika , rupa is embedded not only within the 5 Khandas but as well within the (process) of the Law of Dependent Orgination). Moreover I think that Abhidhamma aimed to expand the Law with a profound analysis ,introduced ethical principles (kammapatha) to emphasise is use for daily life mindfulness and included Nibbana as Paramattha Dhamma ( besides the conditioned dhammas ) to point out that this is possible to be experienced in this very life. Moha , as far as I know , is usally connected with lobha and dosa , presenting the aspects of tanha, keeping in in mind the different D.O. place of avijja ( and its definition of not knowing the 4 Noble Truths, not recalling that has been stated for moha, though of course there is a relation). I hope above makes sense to you..respectively wondering how far you may agree with me .. (?) ;-) with Metta Dieter #121384 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Nina & Sarah) - In a message dated 12/15/2011 11:24:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: avijja (and sankhara) as the condition for the khandas , respectively citta,rupa,cetasika , cannot be taken as cetasika at the same time because same elements cannot condition eachother... (tautolgical - I love that word ;-) ) ================================= An instance of moha can serve to condition future instances of moha. (More generally, one dhamma can condition future dhammas of the same sort.) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121385 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) moellerdieter Hi Howard, An instance of moha can serve to condition future instances of moha. (More generally, one dhamma can condition future dhammas of the same sort.) D: that makes no sense to me, Howard. Delusion does not condition delusion but its medium ... D.O. in process.. with Metta Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: upasaka@... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 6:31 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowing vipaka from kamma (transcript, kalkutta.2, India 2004) Hi, Dieter (and Nina & Sarah) - In a message dated 12/15/2011 11:24:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: avijja (and sankhara) as the condition for the khandas , respectively citta,rupa,cetasika , cannot be taken as cetasika at the same time because same elements cannot condition eachother... (tautolgical - I love that word ;-) ) ================================= An instance of moha can serve to condition future instances of moha. (More generally, one dhamma can condition future dhammas of the same sort.) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #121386 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:04 am Subject: Re: three jokes epsteinrob Hi Colette. :-) Best, Rob E. - - - - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette_aube" wrote: > > rough, rough, > > ooops, sorry, animals can't read, so I should say, > > ruff ruff, huh? > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette_aube" wrote: > > > > > > Thank you for correcting my mistake. > > > > No problem Colette. Now go get Scott! :-) > > > > Best, > > Rob E. > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = #121387 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Thank you for sharing your experiences concerning your work. The > acting is like experiencing a certain character's emotions. People > have to learn to cry and do this with sincerity, difficult. When > acting you feel someone else's pain, and this is just as we talked > about: in fact we can only be aware of our own feeling, but someone > else's feeling was the condition. You have a lot to do with > characters, cittas, feelings. Reminders all day. Fascinating. Yes, it's enjoyable, creative work. I guess in Dhamma even reacting to one's own vedana and feeling one's own emotions is like "feeling another character's feelings" since the character we think of as our self doesn't really exist. So the acting work is an interesting analogy to the detachment of Dhamma, and the view of self-view as something you adopt rather than something that is real. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #121388 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:59 am Subject: Re: How to develop right understanding? szmicio Hi Phil, > I'm not worried about you Lukas, if you keep listenibg and discussing, no doubt for me there. L: The recent few days, I feel agitation about some matters. I don't like it, I feel like no control. That's why I am writing now. What about strong attachements, to I would say worldly matters? I feel really confused. I am asking a help. Best wishes Lukas #121389 From: "colette_aube" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and this moment, just like now! colette_aube Hi Sarah, Lets go out on a limb and examine some things (dhatu-vibhaga?). What I believe that our talk is focusing on is that there is a CONTINUITY OF CONSCIOUSNESS. You misinterpret the meaning of part of my post. I was posing the CONTRADICTION of THEORY and REALITY, when I was speaking of the actual practice, in Tibet, of monks chanting over a corpse before burying the corpse, the issue. Monks chant to the corpse, but the corpse cannot hear or is it somehow possible for the corpse to hear? IF SO, HOW? I was hoping that by using the actual practices of the monks, then, you or somebody could give me some enlightenment about this contradictory reality because I know that the monks have a substantial foundation upon which to construct their reality by chanting to the dead body, the corpse. It is the same reasoning and rationale that I'm applying by talking to our very pregnant dog "Henny" that sleeps with me every night. Those puppies may not be born but I can still CONDITION them and attempt to GUIDE THEM (see GUIDED MEDITION) before they actually come into contact with REALITY. [a grave depicts or refers to THE PAST DHARMA, the entire contire concept of TRADITION refers to THE PAST DHARMA, the cover graphics of the album "A COLLECTION OF GREAT DANCE SONGS" by PINK FLOYD shows a couple, on a farm, dancing or waltzing, yet they both wear chains RESTRAINING THEM, CONSTRAINING THEM (see PRISON WALLS, CASTLE WALLS, OBSCURATION) these chains stretch upward from THE GRAVE to the people, the couple, dancing on the earth, the plane of reality (see Dimensions, Multi-verse or M THEORY) of consciousness that we are most commonly fixated on/by. I am THE PAST DHARMA to the puppies that have yet to experience or have contact with REALITY yet I am programming the puppies to behave in a certain way, correct? I'm subconsciously conditioning them to cheat properly, which is to say that if the puppies were humans and the humans were destined to establish reality by means of criminal behavior, cheating, then they do not need THE EGYPTIAN BOOK OF THE DEAD which is a cheat sheet for the corpses to use, what to say, what to do, etc, when they are existing in the "after life". I am theorizing the WORTHLESSNESS OF THE EGYPTIAN BOOK OF THE DEAD, A CHEAT SHEET, before the person is ever born and ever has a chance to come into contact with reality. (I guess the UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO School of the ORIENT INSTITUTE now has COMPETITION and in order to survive, in order to maintain their cushy paychecks, blood supply, they will have to collude with some other being to do something about me, huh?) I am BREAKING THE CHAINS THAT BIND, RELEASING THE HUMANS FROM THEIR BONDAGE, KNOCKING OVER THE PRISON WALLS, OPENING UP THE CASTLE WALLS, BLOWING AWAY THE OBSCURATIONS AS THOUGH THEY WERE NOTHING MORE THAN A THICK LAYER OF FOG. As I said previously, "CONTINUITY OF CONSCIOUSNESS", isn't this similar to a CONTINUUM i.e. THE WHEEL OF SAMSARA, OF SUFFERING, THE WHEEL OF LIFE, DEAD, REBIRTH. Circular logic or circular reasoning, correct? Sarah, where do ya think TRANSIENT or TRANSIENCE comes into play here, in coordination with CONTINUUM or CONTINUITY? SARAH: "...like those of a tree-trunk (apart from rupas still conditioned by past kamma) without any experiencing of any sounds at all." > colette: is it ever possible for a tree or a tree trunk to experience SOUND by hearing? toodles, colette #121390 From: "philip" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' philofillet Hi Rob E > Yes, it's enjoyable, creative work. I guess in Dhamma even reacting to one's own vedana and feeling one's own emotions is like "feeling another character's feelings" since the character we think of as our self doesn't really exist. So the acting work is an interesting analogy to the detachment of Dhamma, and the view of self-view as something you adopt rather than something that is real. Ph: Funny, I was thinking about acting and Dhamma yesterday. It was my Monday, and I'm always for some reason in a foul mood on my Monday, even though I like my job, I think it's attachment to having free time on my weekend, complete *control* over what I want to do. Anyways, as I made the dinner that I take to work and ironed my clothes etc to get ready for work. I found myself moving around in a kind of calm, aware way, and I realized that I was imitating Ryan Gosling from the movie "Drive" I had seen a few days earlier. He's so cool! I wanna be like that guy!!! In the crisis situation, his cool, calm gaze, but with that wry little smile, sigh, what a dreamboat!!! Anyways, it was interesting to note that the calm was coming from imitating that character, without knowing it, then knowing it. Is that detachment because it is a kind of character taking over my body, not me. No, I don't think so, just attachment to wanting calm. Don't you think meditators might tend to be imitating their idea of what a calm, noble monk might do? The imitation would be gross and obvious for beginners, but even for more "advanced" meditators, attachment to the role of being calm, noble man-on-cushion? Phil #121391 From: "philip" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:09 pm Subject: Re: How to develop right understanding? philofillet Hi Lukas > L: The recent few days, I feel agitation about some matters. Ph: Who doesn't have agitation? Only the arahant. But I know what you mean. There is some agitation that stands out, a general sense of anxiety about life. But maybe you are talking about a more specific anxiety, like addictions or something. But we are born to have agitation. The khandas are a disease we are born with, most people who don't know Dhamma seek all kinds of ways to moderate or improve the condition of the khandas. Even people who do seem to know Dhamma are doing that a lot of the time, I'm sure even our best and wisest Dhamma friends are doing that a lot of the time. We are always adjusting the room temperature to make it more comfortable. But the more we listen and reflect, the more moments of seeing that that is going on, the more moments of detachment, just a few now and then. That's the way it has to be. That's why Nina and others talk of "courage", we have to understand the agitation and other unwelcome dhammas instead of chasing them away or covering them up or otherwise doing something to try to remove them from our lives, it's self that does that, we can adjust the room temperature of this one lifetime, maybe some people manage to do that right through their lives, but they die without understanding, and what about the next lifetime, new house, new temperature control devices, and the suffering goes on and on. So courage, my friend! >I don't like it, I feel like no control. Ph: That takes courage. We have to understand what arises, it is conditioned to arise. > That's why I am writing now. What about strong attachements, to I would say worldly matters? > I feel really confused. I am asking a help. Ph: My winter vacation starts next week. Let's try to set up a Skype talk! BTW, I think good nutrition, exercise, quitting smoking, doing yoga, all that common sense stuff helps. Being healthy does not necessarily mean attachment to that healthy, it can be understood as an aid to understanding. As you know in abhidhamma there buoyancy (lahutaa) plasticity (mudutaa) and wieldiness(kammannataa) of rupa, and I think the same three for nama, aspects of dhammas rather than dhammas with their own characteristics. I like this from Nina's book on rupa, p.58: "When one is healthy, there are conditions for lightness, plasticity and wieldiness of body. The "atthasaalinii" states that these three qualities are not produced by kamma, but that they are produced by citta, temperature or nutrition. This commentary states '..thus the ascetics say, 'Today we have agreeable food...today we have suitable weather...today our mind is one-pointed, our body is light, plastic and wieldy.' When we have suitable food and the temperature is right we may notice that we are healthy, that the body is not rigid and that it can move in a supple way. Not only food and temperature, also kusala citta can influence our physical condition. When we apply ourselves to mental development it can condition suppleness of the body. Thus we can verify in our daily life what is taught in the Abhidhamma." So if you still have that lifestyle you described before of getting up late and smoking a bunch of cigarettes and drinking a lot of coffee (I love it!) and having those beers later, that might interfere with positive conditions for understanding. I'm not saying that we should be obsessive about our healthy, but a healthy lifestyle supports understanding, I think. My winter vacation is starting next week, I will have time to Skype, I think, if you'd like. Phil #121392 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:23 pm Subject: Re: How to develop right understanding? kenhowardau Hi Lucas and Phil, I think this raises a tricky question: what should we do when someone at DSG asks for help? I know the right answer, but I am not sure how to express it. The right answer - as I have learnt from previous DSG discussions - is: "Instead of *wanting* a Dhamma friend, you should be *being* a Dhamma friend. Instead of wanting someone to help you, you be should be *helping* someone else." The Abhidhamma reasoning is straightforward enough: wanting is an akusala mental state, and therefore a bad friend, wheras helping is kusala and therefore a good friend. At first sight, the suttas might seem to be saying something different. They might seem to be saying that a monk initially finds the Path by wanting a teacher. But on closer inspection we can see that the monk in the sutas is not seeking a teacher for his own benefit. He is seeking someone to whom he can pay respect. Having paid respect, he honours that teacher by paying close attention to his/her words. Wouldn't you agree that is why people go to see K Sujin? They are not wanting something for themselves, they go to express their gratitude to her and to pay respect - by listening attentively to what she has to say. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > > I'm not worried about you Lukas, if you keep listenibg and discussing, no doubt for me there. > > L: The recent few days, I feel agitation about some matters. I don't like it, I feel like no control. That's why I am writing now. What about strong attachements, to I would say worldly matters? > I feel really confused. I am asking a help. > > Best wishes > Lukas > #121393 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:58 pm Subject: Re: How to develop right understanding? jonoabb Hi Lucas (and Phil and KenH) I agree with both Phil and KenH, that the best help for anyone is a better understanding of the teachings. This is the only form of help that brings benefit in the longer term as well as immediately. And as KenH also points out, having more regard for others means less concern about oneself. I appreciate that being confused is not a pleasant situation to be in. But as we know from our study of the teachings, that situation is actually moments of quite different dhammas (some vipaka, some kusala, in addition to the more obvious akusala). And the unpleasant feeling is different from the confusion as to what's what (ignorance). Life's tough, but then why should we expect it to be otherwise! Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Lucas and Phil, > > I think this raises a tricky question: what should we do when someone at DSG asks for help? > > I know the right answer, but I am not sure how to express it. > > The right answer - as I have learnt from previous DSG discussions - is: "Instead of *wanting* a Dhamma friend, you should be *being* a Dhamma friend. Instead of wanting someone to help you, you be should be *helping* someone else." > > The Abhidhamma reasoning is straightforward enough: wanting is an akusala mental state, and therefore a bad friend, wheras helping is kusala and therefore a good friend. > > At first sight, the suttas might seem to be saying something different. They might seem to be saying that a monk initially finds the Path by wanting a teacher. But on closer inspection we can see that the monk in the sutas is not seeking a teacher for his own benefit. He is seeking someone to whom he can pay respect. Having paid respect, he honours that teacher by paying close attention to his/her words. > > Wouldn't you agree that is why people go to see K Sujin? They are not wanting something for themselves, they go to express their gratitude to her and to pay respect - by listening attentively to what she has to say. > > Ken H > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > > I'm not worried about you Lukas, if you keep listenibg and discussing, no doubt for me there. > > > > L: The recent few days, I feel agitation about some matters. I don't like it, I feel like no control. That's why I am writing now. What about strong attachements, to I would say worldly matters? > > I feel really confused. I am asking a help. > > > > Best wishes > > Lukas #121394 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Right concepts' epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Rob E > > > Yes, it's enjoyable, creative work. I guess in Dhamma even reacting to one's own vedana and feeling one's own emotions is like "feeling another character's feelings" since the character we think of as our self doesn't really exist. So the acting work is an interesting analogy to the detachment of Dhamma, and the view of self-view as something you adopt rather than something that is real. > > Ph: Funny, I was thinking about acting and Dhamma yesterday. It was my Monday, and I'm always for some reason in a foul mood on my Monday, even though I like my job, I think it's attachment to having free time on my weekend, complete *control* over what I want to do. Anyways, as I made the dinner that I take to work and ironed my clothes etc to get ready for work. I found myself moving around in a kind of calm, aware way, and I realized that I was imitating Ryan Gosling from the movie "Drive" I had seen a few days earlier. He's so cool! I wanna be like that guy!!! In the crisis situation, his cool, calm gaze, but with that wry little smile, sigh, what a dreamboat!!! Anyways, it was interesting to note that the calm was coming from imitating that character, without knowing it, then knowing it. I enjoyed your description. I that's a good description of a natural way of taking on some of a character's attributes, by unconsciously modeling what he is doing. Becoming aware of it may even break the spell in a way. Of course, if you are an actor then you try to do the process consciously but without getting in the way of what happens naturally. That's the tough part of the occupation, but a good technique allows that to take place. > Is that detachment because it is a kind of character taking over my body, not me. No, I don't think so, just attachment to wanting calm. Or maybe attachment or attraction to being that way because you admired how Ryan Gosling handled himself. There are whole generations that try to copy certain actors, if they're cool enough. > Don't you think meditators might tend to be imitating their idea of what a calm, noble monk might do? The imitation would be gross and obvious for beginners, but even for more "advanced" meditators, attachment to the role of being calm, noble man-on-cushion? Well I think for sure anyone would go through all that stuff and have to become aware of it and drop things. I think that after a while you go beyond those expectations and images and just want to sit for the reason you're doing it. I'm sure there are fantasies and dramas about being knowledgeable in Dhamma knowledge too. Whatever we do, we're going to have self-view manifest in various ways, but that's part of the challenge. But sure, that's a danger. It's very hard to do anything without getting caught up in the image of oneself doing it. Awareness is the only cure for everything... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #121395 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:50 am Subject: Intention is the Kamma! bhikkhu5 Friends: Kamma is Intention behind a mental, verbal or bodily action: Kamma is intention to push and act and not the later resulting effects! Buddha emphasized the core Law of Kamma: Moral Efficacy of any Action! He said: Kamma should be known and understood: The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The ending of kamma should be known. The way of practice for the ending of kamma should be known. Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one makes kamma by way of body, speech, and mind. And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play. And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the various animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry ghosts, kamma to be experienced in this human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the divine devas. This is called the diversity in kamma. By intending something one plants an egg of future hatching resultants! And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here and now, or later in this very lifetime, and that which arises in later lives. This is called the result of kamma. And what is the ending of kamma? The ending of contact thereby also ends kamma. And what is the way of practice for the ending of kamma? Just this Noble eightfold path: right view, right motivation, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration This is the way of praxis leading to the end of kamma. Now when a disciple of the Noble Ones comprehends kamma in this way, the cause, the diversity, the result, the end, and the way of practice leading to the ending of kamma in this way, then he sees the fulfillment of the Noble life as the end of kamma. Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The ending of kamma... The way of practice for the ending of kamma should be known. Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said. Reference: AN VI.63 _________________________________________________________________ Reflecting on all one's actions: Intention has in future entangled physical effects outside the individual! The Buddha to his son: How do you consider this, Rahula: What is a mirror for? Rahula: For reflection, Sir. The Buddha: In the same way, Rahula, bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts are to be done with constant reflection. Whenever you want to do a bodily act, then you should reflect: This bodily act I want to do, would it lead to misery to myself, to the misery of others, or to both? Is it a detrimental bodily act, with painful consequences, painful results? If, on reflection, you come to know that it would lead to your own misery, to the misery of others, or to both, and it would be an harming bodily act with painful consequences, painful results, then any bodily act whatsoever of that sort is absolutely unacceptable for you to do! But if on reflection you know that it would not cause misery. That it would be an advantageous bodily action with happy consequences, & pleasant results, then any bodily act of that sort is proper for you to do. Any intention produces a ladder into the future upon which one climbs! While you are doing a bodily act, you should reflect: This bodily act I am doing now does it lead to self-misery, to the misery of others, or to both? Is it an detrimental bodily act, with painful consequences, painful results? If, on reflection, you come to know that it is leading to self-misery, or to the misery of others, or to both, then you should instantly stop doing it! But if on reflection you know that it is not disadvantageous to anybody, then you may continue with it. Having done a bodily act, you should again reflect .... If, on reflection, you come to know that it led to self-misery, to the misery of others, or to both; that it was an detrimental bodily act with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, and lay it open to the teacher or to a knowledgeable friend in the holy life. Having confessed it, you should exercise restraint and self-control in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to misery, that it was a advantageous bodily action with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay mentally elated and joyful, training day & night in all the advantageous mental qualities. ...[similarly for verbal and mental acts]... Intention is a choice, which reduces entropy, thus rolling out the future! Rahula, all past bhikkhus and recluses who purified their bodily, verbal, & mental acts, did it through repeated reflection on their bodily, verbal, and mental acts in exactly this way. All the future bhikkhus and recluses & all the bhikkhus and recluses who at present purify their bodily, verbal, and mental acts, do it by repeated reflection on their bodily, verbal, & mental acts in exactly this way. Therefore, Rahula, you should train yourself: I will purify my bodily acts by repeated reflection. I will purify my verbal acts by repeated reflection. I will purify my mental acts by repeated reflection. Thus should you train yourself! reference MN 61 <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #121396 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:05 pm Subject: Consciousness Causes Collapse... => Kamma! bhikkhu5 Friends: Consciousness Causes Collapse: of the quantum-mechanical wave-function, which empirically expresses the true probability distribution of all possible future events... Result: A particular intended & selected manifestation occurs! Quantum-Physicist Henry Stapp: All intentional choices have universal physical effects = Kamma! http://youtu.be/NZzHgQ4CCW0 Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #121397 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is there a dhamma called "anatta" sarahprocter... Dear Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > SN 35: 151 "A Student" (Bodhi transl) > > > > " 'Bhikkhus, this holy life is lived without students and without a teacher (anantevaasikam ida.m bhikkhave brahmacariya.m vussati anaacariyaka.m)*. A bhikkhu who has no students and no teacher dwells happily, in comfort. > >P: Without studying it more carefully, we could fall into misunderstanding of it in the way we can with "with oneself as one's refuge and island" or however that goes. We have to understand that there is no bhikkhu to be found, no student to be found, no teacher to be found - only dhammas. ... S: Without an understanding of dhammas as anatta -- no bhikkhu, no student, no teacher, as you say -- whatever we read will be misunderstood, whether a Sutta, a newspaper article or anything else. Metta Sarah ===== #121398 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:23 pm Subject: Patthana chanting. rjkjp1 Dear all, These two youtubes are of a monk chanting Patthana, conditional relations (the 24 paccaya), the last book of the Abhidhamma I am the farang giving the English summaries. The place is the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation (main teacher Sujin Boriharnwanaket) in bangkok. http://youtu.be/eYOwrUMqwvU http://youtu.be/tG6dx-dFmDQ #121399 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -Uddhacca /Restlessness sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > D: what about the case of neither dosa or adosa , i.e. indifference? > Our ordinary scenario without necessarily akusala Citta /akusala kamma ( apart from those people we like) .... S: Neutral feeling, vedana-upekkha which can arise with kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya cittas. For example, now there may be indifferent/neutral feeling with ignorance. Occasionally there may be neutral feeling with kusala cittas. See more in U.P. under 'upekkha' for the different meanings, such as: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9923 > Of the 4 of Brahmavihara , Karuna and Mudita are identified as 2 Illimitables whereas Upekkha is stated among the 19 Beautiful Mental Factors > (incl. adosa) .... S: Here, upekkha is equanimity, the (always) beautiful mental factor, arising with every wholesome citta (those with pleasant and neutral feeling). Karuna and mudita don't arise with every wholesome citta. The 4 brahma-viharas are metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, but metta has already been included in adosa and upekkha has already also been included under the universal beautiful mental factors. .. > D: Question: when we include metta in adosa cetasika , why not karuna and mudita? .... S: As Nina explained, they are separate mental factors with their own particular characteristics. (Howard and Nina also already explained in response to our other thread on D.O. that moha and avijja are synonyms). ... > S:Many, many opportunities during the day, like now! > > > D: when the heart is open .. ;-) .... S: i.e. when the characteristic of metta is understood - no thought or concern for oneself at such times at all. If there's an attempt to develop metta, it's back to *me* and *my metta* again. Metta Sarah =====