#122200 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:13 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob E., Ken H., R: "...When you say there are only dhammas, do you believe that there is nothing but dhammas in existence, or would you say that they are the only thing in human experience? In other words, is the entire world a pure illusion, a product of thought?" Scott: There are only dhammas. Dhammas 'experience' dhammas, those dhammas which have 'experiencing' as characteristic. 'Human experience' is an illusion. 'Human experience' is a functionn of ignorance - and ignorance is a dhamma. 'Human experience' is nothing and nothing to rely on. 'Human experience' will never have any dhamma as an object - there is no such thing. Scott. #122201 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 moellerdieter Hi all, I thought about how to start with the rather extensive topic and believe M.N. 117 is a nice beginning: [1] "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view. "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path."And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions."And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path. unquote below for your attention and possible comments .. with Metta Dieter brief and easy : http://thebuddhisttemple.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57&Itemid\ =62 Nashville 6. Ditthi (Wrong View) Wrong view or wrong understanding is called ditthi. It may also mean wrong belief. Ditthi sees or understands wrongly what is absent to be present, what is present to be absent, what is right to be wrong and what is wrong to be right; it also dogmatically takes one's wrong view to be right and other's right views to be wrong. Believing in the almighty creator of the world and beings when there is none; believing that there is an atta (soul) in the body of beings when there is not; these wrong beliefs are ditthi which believes what is absent to be present. Falsely believing that neither good nor bad deeds will bring forth results later on, when they do so in reality; falsely believing that there are no results of kamma when beings do enjoy or suffer the results of kamma in many ways; falsely believing that there is no Nibbana, even though there is Nibbana, the cessation of mind, matter and suffering; falsely believing that there are no next existences even though there is an endless cycle of rebirths before the attainment of Nibbana. Such wrong beliefs are ditthi, which believes what is present to be absent. unquote a must to read is certainly Nina's introduction , chapter 16 http://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/cetasikas/d/doc2867.html which provides the opportunity to discuss various passages . Among others ,Nina refers to the most extensive treatment of ditthi in the Sutta Pitaka : " the Brahma-jala-sutta10 sixty-two kinds of Wrong view are mentioned. Of these there are eighteen speculative theories concerning the past, and forty-four concerning the future. There are speculative theories about the world being finite or infinite, about the origin of the " soul" or the world. There are speculations about good and evil and about nibbana." unquote Bhikkhu Bodhi 's book 'Brahmajala Sutta and its ´commentaries' goes into details (370 pages !) see http://books.google.de/books?id=6ym-vC4nTsAC&pg=PA352&lpg=PA352&dq=The+All-Embra\ cing+Net+of+Views+(Brahmaj%C4%81la+Sutta+),+tr.+with+Com.+by+Bhikkhu+Bodhi+(BPS)\ .&source=bl&ots=C12gt3OUEx&sig=fNMtUYp_-CYIjLsNF9ONQbryzuk&hl=de&sa=X&ei=GR0hT_C\ aE5ersgax4cHrBw&ved=0CG0Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q&f=false unfortunately no passages can be copied . a few lines from his introduction: .. " strategic position of the first discourse of D.N. , probably deliberate design by the Elders who compiled the canon""it is , so to speak, the entry at the gateway to the Doctrine. .." " The key to destroying the defilements and thereby to gaining emancipation... is the destruction of ignorance. Ignorance is the non understanding of realities a spiritual covering over the true nature of dhammas that prevents us from seeing trhings as they really are . Its antidote is wisdom (panna) a way of understanding things free from distortions and inversions of subjective predispositions, clearly , correctly , precisely." ( which Abhidhammika will not love reading this ? ;-) ) "An exhaustive classification into 62 cases of entire range of philosphical views concerning the perennial topics of speculative thought, the ulimate natu´re of the self and the world. The Brahmajala's claim to exhaustiveness is thundered out in the refrain that brings each section of the exposition to a close:'outside of these, there are none' " "The scheme of 62 cases is a net cast out of the Buddha upon the ocean of human thoughts." "The wrong views mentioned by the Buddha can be classified into three general categories -wrong views with fixed consequences (niyatamicchaditthi)...tend to undermine the basic principles of morality -speculative views (ditthigata) ..include all metaphysical theories , religious creeds, and philosophical tenets concerning issues that lie beyond the reach of possible experiential verification -personality views (sakkayaditthi) , the fundamental belief in a self or ego entity (from which all such views arise) unquote the latter likely an issue we may go into further details last but not least an overview by Nyanatiloka Maha Thera , Buddhist Dictionary: diṭṭhi (lit. 'sight'; √dis to see): view, belief, speculative opinion, insight. If not qualified by sammā, 'right', it mostly refers to wrong and evil view or opinion, and only in a few instances to right view, understanding or insight (e.g. diṭṭhi-ppatta, q.v.; diṭṭhi-visuddhi, purification of insight; diṭṭhi-sampanna, possessed of insight). Wrong or evil views (diṭṭhi or micchā-diṭṭhi) are declared as utterly rejectable for being a source of wrong and evil aspirations and conduct, and liable at times to lead man to the deepest abysses of depravity, as it is said in A. I, 22: "No other thing than evil views do I know, o monks, whereby to such an extent the unwholesome things not yet arisen arise, and the unwholesome things already arisen are brought to growth and fullness. No other thing than evil views do I know, whereby to such an extent the wholesome things not yet arisen are hindered in their arising, and the wholesome things already arisen disappear. No other thing than evil views do I know, whereby to such an extent human beings at the dissolution of the body, at death, are passing to a way of suffering, into a world of woe, into hell." Further in A. I, 23: "Whatever a man filled with evil views performs or undertakes, or whatever he possesses of will, aspiration, longing and tendencies, all these things lead him to an undesirable, unpleasant and disagreeable state, to woe and suffering." From the Abhidhamma (Dhs) it may be inferred that evil views, whenever they arise, are associated with greed (s. Tab. I. 22, 23, 26, 27). Numerous speculative opinions and theories, which at all times have influenced and still are influencing mankind, are quoted in the Sutta-texts. Amongst them, however, the wrong view which everywhere, and at all times, has most misled and deluded mankind is the personality-belief, the ego-illusion. This personality-belief (sakkāya-diṭṭhi), or ego-illusion (atta-diṭṭhi), is of 2 kinds: eternity-belief and annihilation-belief. Eternity-belief (sassata-diṭṭhi) is the belief in the existence of a persisting ego-entity, soul or personality, existing independently of those physical and mental processes that constitute life and continuing even after death. Annihilation-belief (uccheda-diṭṭhi), on the other hand, is the belief in the existence of an ego-entity or personality as being more or less identical with those physical and mental processes, and which therefore, at the dissolution at death, will come to be annihilated. - For the 20 kinds of personality-belief, see sakkāya-diṭṭhi. Now, the Buddha neither teaches a personality which will continue after death, nor does he teach a personality which will be annihilated at death, but he shows us that 'personality', 'ego', 'individual', 'man', etc., are nothing but mere conventional designations (vohāra-vacana) and that in the ultimate sense (s. paramattha-sacca) there is only this self-consuming process of physical and mental phenomena which continually arise and again disappear immediately. - For further details, s. anattā, khandha, paṭiccasamuppāda. "The Perfect One is free from any theory (diṭṭhigata), for the Perfect One has seen what corporeality is, and how it arises and passes away. He has seen what feeling ... perception ... mental formations ... consciousness are, and how they arise and pass away. Therefore I say that the Perfect One has won complete deliverance through the extinction, fading away, disappearance, rejection and casting out of all imaginings and conjectures, of all inclination to the 'vain-glory of 'I' and 'mine." (M. 72). The rejection of speculative views and theories is a prominent feature in a chapter of the Sutta Nipāta, the Aṭṭhaka Vagga. The so-called 'evil views with fixed destiny' (niyata-micchādiṭṭhi) constituting the last of the 10 unwholesome courses of action (kammapatha, q.v.), are the following three: (1) the fatalistic 'view of the uncausedness' of existence (ahetukadiṭṭhi), (2) the view of the inefficacy of action' (akiriyadiṭṭhi), (3) nihilism (natthikadiṭṭhi). (1) was taught by Makkhaligosāla, a contemporary of the Buddha who denied every cause for the corruptness and purity of beings, and asserted that everything is minutely predestined by fate. (2) was taught by Pūraṇakassapa, another contemporary of the Buddha who denied every kammical effect of good and bad actions: "To him who kills, steals, robs, etc., nothing bad will happen. For generosity, self-restraint and truthfulness, etc. no reward is to be expected." (3) was taught by Ajitakesakambala, a third contemporary of the Buddha who asserted that any belief in good action and its reward is a mere delusion, that after death no further life would follow, that man at death would become dissolved into the elements, etc. For further details about these 3 views, s. D. 2, M. 60; commentarial exposition in WHEEL 98/99, P. 23. Frequently mentioned are also the 10 antinomies (antagāhikā micchādiṭṭhi): 'Finite is the world' or 'infinite is the world' ... 'body and soul are identical' or 'body and soul are different' (e.g. M. 63). In the Brahmajāla Sutta .(D.1), 62 false views are classified and described, comprising all conceivable wrong views and speculations about man and world. See The All-Embracing Net of Views (Brahmajāla Sutta ), tr. with Com. by Bhikkhu Bodhi (BPS). Further s. D. 15, 23, 24, 28; M. 11, 12, 25, 60, 63, 72, 76, 101, 102, 110; A. II, 16; X, 93; S. XXI, XXIV; Pts.M. Diṭṭhikathā,. etc. Wrong views (diṭṭhi) are one of the proclivities (s. anusaya), cankers (s. āsava), clingings (s. upādāna), one of the three modes of perversions (s. vipallāsa). Unwholesome consciousness (akusalacitta), rooted in greed, may be either with or without wrong views (diṭṭhigata-sampayutta or vippayutta); s. Dhs.; Tab I. On right view (sammā-diṭṭhi), s. magga and M. 9 (Trans. with Com. in 'R. Und.'). diṭṭhi-nissita-sīla: 'morality based on wrong views'; s. nissaya. diṭṭhi-ppatta: the 'vision attainer', is one of the 7 Noble Persons (ariya-puggala, q.v.). diṭṭhi-vipallāsa: 'perversion of views'; s. vipallāsa. diṭṭhi-visuddhi: 'purification of view' is the 3rd of the 7 stages of purification (visuddhi III, q.v.). ditth'upādāna: 'clinging to views', is one of the 4 kinds of clinging (upādāna, q.v.). unquote . #122202 From: han tun Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:01 am Subject: To die filled with longing is painful and blameworthy hantun1 Online Now Send IM Send Email Send Email Dear Nina and others, "All things that are pleasing and attractive are liable to change, to vanish, to become otherwise. Do not, Sire, die filled with longing. To die filled with longing is painful and blameworthy." Han: Those words were what King Mahaasudassana asked his Queen to tell him just before his death. Lord Buddha in one of his previous lives was Cakkavattii (a universal monarch) called King Mahaasudassana. Kusinaaraa, where Lord Buddha attained final parinibbaana, was once Kusaavatii, the royal city of King Mahaasudassana. Mahaasudassana had eighty four thousand cities, the chief of which was Kusaavatii; eighty four thousand palaces, the chief being Dhammapaasaada; eighty four thousand gabled houses, the chief being Mahaavyuuha; eighty four thousand state elephants, led by Uposatha; and eighty four thousand horses, led by Valaahaka. He had eighty four thousand chariots led by Vejayanta, and eighty four thousand wives, of whom Subbaddaa was the chief. One day, the king realized that his death was approaching, and, when Subhaddaa visited him to try and induce him to enjoy his pleasures, he stopped her, telling her to speak to him of the impermanence of things and the need for giving up all desire. While she talked to him of these things, he died and was reborn in the Brahma world. Now let us see the part of DN 17 Mahaasudassana Sutta that tells us the final moments of King Mahaasudassana. The sutta is not available at AccessToInsight and I copied the extracts from the book on Digha Nikaaya translated by Maurice Walshe. Paa.li words are inserted by me taken from the Paa.li Pi.taka. -------------------- 2.9. Then King Mahaasudassana said to a certain man: "Here, fellow, go to the great gabled chamber, bring the gold couch out and lay it down among the gold palm trees." "Very good, Sire", said the man, and did so. Then King Mahaasudassana adopted the lion-posture on his right side with one foot on the other, mindful and clearly aware. 2.10. "Then Queen Subhaddaa thought: "King Mahaasudassana's faculties are purified, his complexion is clear and bright, oh, I hope he is not dead!" So she said to him: "Sire, of your eighty-four thousand cities, Kusaavatii is the chief. Make a wish, arouse the desire to live there!" Thus, reminding him of all his royal possessions (as in previous verse) she exhorted him to wish to stay alive. [Han: Here, what King Mahaasudassana said to his Queen was very note-worthy. Please read on.] 267. "Eva.m vutte, aananda, raajaa mahaasudassano subhadda.m devi.m etadavoca 2.11. "At this, Aananda, King Mahaasudassana said to the Queen "Diigharatta.m kho ma.m tva.m, devi, i.t.thehi kantehi piyehi manaapehi samudaacarittha; atha ca pana ma.m tva.m pacchime kaale ani.t.thehi akantehi appiyehi amanaapehi samudaacarasii"ti. "For a long time, Queen, you spoke pleasing delightful, attractive words to me, but now at this last time your words have been unpleasing, undelightful, unattractive to me." "Katha.m carahi ta.m, deva, samudaacaraamii"ti? "Sire, how then am I to speak to you?" "Eva.m kho ma.m tva.m, devi, samudaacara "This is how you should speak: "sabbeheva, deva, piyehi manaapehi naanaabhaavo vinaabhaavo a~n~nathaabhaavo, maa kho tva.m, deva, saapekkho kaalamakaasi, dukkhaa saapekkhassa kaala"nkiriyaa, garahitaa ca saapekkhassa kaala"nkiriya." "All things that are pleasing and attractive are liable to change, to vanish, to become otherwise. Do not, Sire, die filled with longing. To die filled with longing is painful and blameworthy." ---------- Han: dukkhaa saapekkhassa kaala"nkiriyaa = is painful + filled with longing + to die. garahitaa ca saapekkhassa kaala"nkiriya = is blameworthy + filled with longing + to die. ----------- [Han: The instruction by the King to his Queen how to speak to him continues.] "...Of your eighty-four thousand cities, Kusaavatii is the chief: abandon desire, abandon the longing to live with them...Of your eighty-four thousand palaces, Dhamma is the chief: abandon desire, abandon the longing to live there..." (and so on throughout, as verse 5). 2.12. At this, Queen Subhaddaa cried out and burst into tears. Then, wiping away her tears, she said: "Sire, all things that are pleasing and attractive are liable to change...Do not, Sire, die filled with longing... 2.13. Soon after this, King Mahaasudassana died; and just as a householder or his son might feel drowsy after a good meal, so he felt the sensation of passing away, and he had a favourable rebirth in the Brahmaa-world. ---------- Han: It is amazing that I find the following verse at the end of the sutta. Impermanent are the compounded things, prone to rise and fall; Having risen, they are destroyed, their passing truest bliss. ["Aniccaa vata sa.nkhaaraa, uppaadavaya dhammino, Uppajjitvaa nirujjhanti, tesa.m vuupasamo sukho"ti.] It is the same verse spoken by Sakka, the king of devas, when the Blessed One had passed away. (DN 16 Mahaaparinibbaana sutta) ----------- Han: Finally, I will echo once again King Mahaasudassana's words: maa saapekkho kaalamakaasi, dukkhaa saapekkhassa kaala"nkiriyaa, garahitaa saapekkhassa kaala"nkiriya. Do not die filled with longing. To die filled with longing is painful. To die filled with longing is blameworthy. with metta, Han #122203 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:53 am Subject: Only dhammas / was Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. kenhowardau Hi Robert E, --------- <. . .> > RE: Let's start by not assuming it to be the case, but also not digress from the topic. First let's find out what it means. ----------- KH: I agree, we must know what it means. It means there are only realities. Anything that is not a reality is just a concept, and does not really exist. ---------------- > RE: When you say there are only dhammas, do you believe that there is nothing but dhammas in existence, or would you say that they are the only thing in human experience? ---------------- KH: By definition there are only realities. But how many realities is another question. As I understand it the realities taught in the Abhidhamma are the ones experienced on the path to enlightenment. So I suppose there are others (that we don't need to know about). ------------ > RE: In other words, is the entire world a pure illusion, a product of thought? ------------ KH: Yes, anything we experience that is not a citta, cetasika, rupa or nibana is just a concept. Ken H #122204 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:59 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. kenhowardau Hi Scott and Robert E, -------------- >> RE: When you say there are only dhammas, do you believe that there is nothing but dhammas in existence, or would you say that they are the only thing in human experience? In other words, is the entire world a pure illusion, a product of thought?" > S: There are only dhammas. Dhammas 'experience' dhammas, those dhammas which have 'experiencing' as characteristic. 'Human experience' is an illusion. -------------- KH: I think it's good to make the distinction Scott is making. If the term "human experience" is meant to cover something apart from namas then what is that "something"? There is no experience apart from namas, so the "something" would have to be an illusion brought about by wrong view. If, on the other hand, "human experience" is a conventional term for namas experiencing concepts then no harm is necessarily being done. Namas can experience concepts without necessarily having ignorance or wrong view. --------------------- > S: 'Human experience' is a function of ignorance - and ignorance is a dhamma. 'Human experience' is nothing and nothing to rely on. 'Human experience' will never have any dhamma as an object - there is no such thing. -------------------- KH: Just to be clear, could we say belief in the ultimate reality of human experience (something apart from namas) is a function of ignorance etc? Even I - a dhammas-only fundamentalist am having trouble keeping up. So I imagine Robert (a fence-sitter) will be having even more trouble. :-) Ken H #122205 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:38 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Scott, and Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., Ken H., > > R: "...When you say there are only dhammas, do you believe that there is nothing but dhammas in existence, or would you say that they are the only thing in human experience? In other words, is the entire world a pure illusion, a product of thought?" > > Scott: There are only dhammas. Dhammas 'experience' dhammas, those dhammas which have 'experiencing' as characteristic. 'Human experience' is an illusion. 'Human experience' is a functionn of ignorance - and ignorance is a dhamma. 'Human experience' is nothing and nothing to rely on. 'Human experience' will never have any dhamma as an object - there is no such thing. Just trying to clarify a basic, not a matter of terminology, right or wrong. Do you believe that there is nothing in the universe but dhammas? In other words, there really are no bodies, worlds, stars, etc.? Ken H. suggested at one point that science's understanding of the constant firing of sensory nerves might provide an explanation for the rapid-fire arising and falling away of cittas, and I think you objected to that on the basis that all of science's discoveries were just more conceptual illusions. But it seems like there might be some divide between those who believe that there is no universe at all, just dhammas in all of existence, and those who think we only experience dhammas, but there is in fact a world that is separate from what we do or don't experience. For those who believe there are only dhammas, I have some confusion about the independent existence of rupas. There are rupas that arise without being experienced at all, so what is the nature of those rupas? They seem to represent some kind of independent physical existence apart from cittas. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #122206 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:52 am Subject: Only dhammas / was Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Ken H, Scott, and anyone who understands dhammas better than I do. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > ------------ > > RE: In other words, is the entire world a pure illusion, a product of thought? > ------------ > > KH: Yes, anything we experience that is not a citta, cetasika, rupa or nibana is just a concept. Well, it would be possible to say that anything we experience that is not a dhamma is just a concept *for us,* and not reach the conclusion that there is nothing else beyond our own cittas; but clearly that is the basis of your understanding - that nothing exists at all except for dhammas. I obviously am not steeped enough in this commentarial tradition to adhere to this point of view as easily as you and Scott do. I guess you've absorbed enough of this philosophy to feel certain that it's true. I can only explore it a piece at a time. Anyway, good to know your starting point, because it sets a boundary for what can be sensibly discussed, which is why I brought it up. If there are absolutely no objects, bodies, body parts, activities, mountains or worlds, outside of the pure illusion of concepts, then of course it is a waste of time to pay any attention to such things when it comes to Dhamma. So it's not really worthwhile to debate whether this or that activity is any part of the path. Worldly outcomes and actions are only significant as signposts of certain dhammas. In that sense I would like to clarify what is actually happening with the dhammas involved when kamma patha takes place. "Murder" is a conceptual action, not a dhamma, yet it is the kamma patha of intending or desiring to kill someone. But "desiring to kill someone" is also a thought-form, not a dhamma, so I find it hard to understand why kamma patha is the culmination of the intentions of any dhamma. I also don't understand how kamma culminates in vipaka of pleasant conventional life-circumstances, unless of course what the real vipaka are "pleasant dhammas" which are interpreted into conventional forms by deluded recipients. Other than those sorts of things, once clarified, I guess that actions and events in the conventional world don't cause or result from the activity of dhammas. But I don't understand those cases in terms of pure dhammas with no conceptual illusions involved. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #122207 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:03 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Ken H., and Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > Hi Scott and Robert E, > > -------------- > >> RE: When you say there are only dhammas, do you believe that there is nothing but dhammas in existence, or would you say that they are the only thing in human experience? In other words, is the entire world a pure illusion, a product of thought?" > > > S: There are only dhammas. Dhammas 'experience' dhammas, those dhammas which have 'experiencing' as characteristic. 'Human experience' is an illusion. > -------------- > > KH: I think it's good to make the distinction Scott is making. If the term "human experience" is meant to cover something apart from namas then what is that "something"? There is no experience apart from namas, so the "something" would have to be an illusion brought about by wrong view. I don't think there's any human experience apart from namas. My question was whether there is anything that exists apart from dhammas *outside of* human experience. By human experience, I mean the world of namas. > If, on the other hand, "human experience" is a conventional term for namas experiencing concepts then no harm is necessarily being done. Namas can experience concepts without necessarily having ignorance or wrong view. I wasn't thinking of concepts at that time, but I guess they would be included too. > --------------------- > > S: 'Human experience' is a function of ignorance - and ignorance is a dhamma. 'Human experience' is nothing and nothing to rely on. 'Human experience' will never have any dhamma as an object - there is no such thing. > -------------------- > > KH: Just to be clear, could we say belief in the ultimate reality of human experience (something apart from namas) is a function of ignorance etc? > > Even I - a dhammas-only fundamentalist am having trouble keeping up. So I imagine Robert (a fence-sitter) will be having even more trouble. :-) Well I just want to establish the frame of reference for whom I'm talking to. I'm interested in the reality of dhammas, but I'm also interested -- which I don't think you are -- in the relationship to what is really arising in experienced -- dhammas -- to what we think we're experiencing -- concepts -- and how ignorance takes place and is gradually cleared up. I am also interested in the relationship between dhammas and levels of action, such as mental, spoken and physical kamma patha, which the Buddha spoke about. But if one doesn't believe in a physical universe, bodies or anything of that sort, the idea of speech and physical kamma patha takes on a very different reality. What exactly is taking place when speech or action take place as expression of kamma patha - I guess it would just be a reference to the rupas that are arising that are mistaken for speech or action of different kinds? If the intention to murder someone is translated into speech and then goes further to complete kamma patha or actual murder - I guess that is just rupas mixed with concept? What makes kamma patha of murder "bad" if there is no body and no murder? Can you explain this to me? How can someone even have an akusala volition to "kill someone" if kusala and akusala are not related to conceptual objects but only to actualities of dhammas? "Kill" is a concept, and so is "someone," so where's the akusala in that most aggregious kamma patha? Why is it even "akusala kamma" to murder someone - a conceptual act to a conceptual being by a conceptual thought? Scott suggested at one point that a murderer was the same as a regular person in terms of insight - all that mattered was whether understanding arose or not, so perhaps there is a belief that physical kamma patha does not exist... Best. Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #122208 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:03 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Ken H., and Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > Hi Scott and Robert E, > > -------------- > >> RE: When you say there are only dhammas, do you believe that there is nothing but dhammas in existence, or would you say that they are the only thing in human experience? In other words, is the entire world a pure illusion, a product of thought?" > > > S: There are only dhammas. Dhammas 'experience' dhammas, those dhammas which have 'experiencing' as characteristic. 'Human experience' is an illusion. > -------------- > > KH: I think it's good to make the distinction Scott is making. If the term "human experience" is meant to cover something apart from namas then what is that "something"? There is no experience apart from namas, so the "something" would have to be an illusion brought about by wrong view. I don't think there's any human experience apart from namas. My question was whether there is anything that exists apart from dhammas *outside of* human experience. By human experience, I mean the world of namas. > If, on the other hand, "human experience" is a conventional term for namas experiencing concepts then no harm is necessarily being done. Namas can experience concepts without necessarily having ignorance or wrong view. I wasn't thinking of concepts at that time, but I guess they would be included too. > --------------------- > > S: 'Human experience' is a function of ignorance - and ignorance is a dhamma. 'Human experience' is nothing and nothing to rely on. 'Human experience' will never have any dhamma as an object - there is no such thing. > -------------------- > > KH: Just to be clear, could we say belief in the ultimate reality of human experience (something apart from namas) is a function of ignorance etc? > > Even I - a dhammas-only fundamentalist am having trouble keeping up. So I imagine Robert (a fence-sitter) will be having even more trouble. :-) Well I just want to establish the frame of reference for whom I'm talking to. I'm interested in the reality of dhammas, but I'm also interested -- which I don't think you are -- in the relationship to what is really arising in experienced -- dhammas -- to what we think we're experiencing -- concepts -- and how ignorance takes place and is gradually cleared up. I am also interested in the relationship between dhammas and levels of action, such as mental, spoken and physical kamma patha, which the Buddha spoke about. But if one doesn't believe in a physical universe, bodies or anything of that sort, the idea of speech and physical kamma patha takes on a very different reality. What exactly is taking place when speech or action take place as expression of kamma patha - I guess it would just be a reference to the rupas that are arising that are mistaken for speech or action of different kinds? If the intention to murder someone is translated into speech and then goes further to complete kamma patha or actual murder - I guess that is just rupas mixed with concept? What makes kamma patha of murder "bad" if there is no body and no murder? Can you explain this to me? How can someone even have an akusala volition to "kill someone" if kusala and akusala are not related to conceptual objects but only to actualities of dhammas? "Kill" is a concept, and so is "someone," so where's the akusala in that most aggregious kamma patha? Why is it even "akusala kamma" to murder someone - a conceptual act to a conceptual being by a conceptual thought? Scott suggested at one point that a murderer was the same as a regular person in terms of insight - all that mattered was whether understanding arose or not, so perhaps there is a belief that physical kamma patha does not exist... Best. Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #122209 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:53 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. kenhowardau Hi Robert E (and Scott), ------------- <. . .> > RE: Just trying to clarify a basic, not a matter of terminology, right or wrong. Do you believe that there is nothing in the universe but dhammas? In other words, there really are no bodies, worlds, stars, etc.? -------------- KH: I should wait for Scott to answer, but in case the question was aimed at both of us I will say, yes of course. In ultimate truth and reality there are only dhammas. ------------------- > RE: Ken H. suggested at one point that science's understanding of the constant firing of sensory nerves might provide an explanation for the rapid-fire arising and falling away of cittas, ------------------- KH: I think you are referring to my conversation with Robert K where I argued that (possibly) smelling cittas arose just as frequently as seeing cittas. According to one level of conventional understanding, smelling occurs only occasionally whereas seeing occurs all the time (whenever our eyes are open). But on another level of conventional understanding smelling also occurs all the time (whenever our nostrils are open). So I was just using conventional understanding as a simile: I wasn't suggesting that dhammas could be explained by conventional science. --------------------------- > RE: and I think you objected to that on the basis that all of science's discoveries were just more conceptual illusions. > But it seems like there might be some divide between those who believe that there is no universe at all, just dhammas in all of existence, and those who think we only experience dhammas, but there is in fact a world that is separate from what we do or don't experience. -------------------------- KH: I'm sure there is such a divide, but I am not on the eel-wriggling side of it. Despite how my conversation with RK might have sounded, I am definitely on the ultimate-realities-only side. And I believe all ultimate realities (apart from nibbana) are inherently fleeting (momentary), and therefore not like conventional realities at all. -------------- > RE: For those who believe there are only dhammas, I have some confusion about the independent existence of rupas. There are rupas that arise without being experienced at all, so what is the nature of those rupas? They seem to represent some kind of independent physical existence apart from cittas. -------------- KH: I have some confusion about that too, although it doesn't worry me. (I don't see it as a pressing issue.) There are two ways in which we can say there are "other" rupas out there. One is to say that rupas always arise in kalapas (groups) and so visible object, for example, arises along with audible object and other rupas, but only one of them can ever be experienced. Another way is to say that there are many kalapas out there. And that there are many cittas out there. That is where I am a little confused. Do those other dhammas out there exist in the same moment as the present citta and kalapa? Or do they exist in a separate moment (in a separate world of their own)? And does it matter? :-) Ken H #122210 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:01 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob E., Ken H., R: "...Do you believe that there is nothing in the universe but dhammas? In other words, there really are no bodies, worlds, stars, etc.?" Scott: Only dhammas: naama, ruupa, Nibbaana. R: "...For those who believe there are only dhammas, I have some confusion about the independent existence of rupas. There are rupas that arise without being experienced at all, so what is the nature of those rupas? They seem to represent some kind of independent physical existence apart from cittas." Scott: Ruupa is ruupa. Ruupa is not naama. Citta is naama. Ruupa exists separate from naama. Ruupa does not require naama in order to exist. Ruupa can arise from conditions that don't include naama, while naama can condition ruupa in other instances. Ruupa can be the object of naama. Naama and ruupa must be known separately. Scott. #122211 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:14 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob E., Ken H., R: "...I don't think there's any human experience apart from namas. My question was whether there is anything that exists apart from dhammas *outside of* human experience. By human experience, I mean the world of namas." Scott: Ruupas exist separate from naamas. R: "...I guess that is just rupas mixed with concept?..." Scott: Naama and ruupa are separate. No such thing as 'rupas mixed with concepts.' R: "...What makes kamma patha of murder 'bad' if there is no body and no murder?...so perhaps there is a belief that physical kamma patha does not exist..." Scott: Akusala dhammas are real, are they not? They are naama, not ruupa. Scott. #122212 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:59 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Ken H., K: "...Do those other dhammas out there exist in the same moment as the present citta and kalapa? Or do they exist in a separate moment (in a separate world of their own)?" Scott: Where you are there are ruupas arising and falling away in kalapas and I am nowhere near you. Where I am there are ruupas arising and falling away in kalapas and you are nowhere near me. Scott. #122213 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:07 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. jonoabb Hi Rob E (and KenH, Scott) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Ken H., and Scott. > ... > RE: My question was whether there is anything that exists apart from dhammas *outside of* human experience. By human experience, I mean the world of namas. > =============== J: As far as I know, the Buddha did not give an answer (or at least, not a direct answer) to this question. As we know, he taught only what is necessary to be known for the purpose of enlightenment and escape from samsara. As regards your earlier question: "do you believe that there is nothing but dhammas in existence, or would you say that they are the only thing in human experience? In other words, is the entire world a pure illusion, a product of thought?", similar considerations apply. Unless something can be directly known, any question of its 'existence' would be a matter of speculation. As Scott has pointed out, the conditions for the arising of certain inanimate rupas do not include nama. So I suppose certain inferences flow from that. But in terms of the development of the path, there is no point in speculating about these matters. > =============== > RE: I'm interested in the reality of dhammas, but I'm also interested -- which I don't think you are -- in the relationship to what is really arising in experienced -- dhammas -- to what we think we're experiencing -- concepts -- and how ignorance takes place and is gradually cleared up. > =============== J: The enlightened being also thinks in terms of people and things, but does so without any misconception regarding the true nature of things. So I wonder whether the line of inquiry you are wanting to pursue is of any relevance/use. The ignorance that needs to be dispelled is ignorance as to the true nature of dhammas, not ignorance as to how or why concepts are formed based on the experience of dhammas. I don't think the Buddha had much to say about the latter. Jon #122214 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:19 pm Subject: Absorption by Breathing! bhikkhu5 Friends: Breathing in-&-out can produce Absorption! The blessed Buddha once explained: Bhikkhus, the concentration gained by Awareness by Breathing, when trained, is of great fruit and advantage. And how, Bhikkhus, is this concentration by Awareness by Breathing developed and cultivated so that it is of great fruit and advantage? Bhikkhus, when one have gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, there one sits down cross-legged, having made one's body and back straight, and set up awareness around the nostrils, then just plain aware of that breathing in itself one breathes in, and just solely aware of only that breathing in itself one breathes out... 1: Breathing in long, one knows, notes and understands: I inhale long! Breathing out long, one knows, notes and understands: I exhale long! ... ... ... ( steps 2-15) One trains thus: Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe in! One trains thus: Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe out! Therefore, Bhikkhus, if a friend wishes: May I become secluded from all sense desires, protected from any detrimental mental state, and thereby enter and dwell in the 1st jhna, which is directed thought and sustained thinking joined with Joy and pleasure born of solitude, then this very same concentration by Awareness by Breathing should be cultivated often & devoted much attention! Furthermore if such friend should wish: By the stilling & fading of all directed and sustained thought, may I enter & dwell in the 2nd jhna, which is a calmed assurance fixed by solid mental unification and joined with Joy & pleasure now born of a concentration devoid of any active thinking, then this same method: Awareness by Breathing should be trained often & devoted sincere attention! Even further; if one should wish: With the fading away of joy, may I dwell in composed equanimity, just open, aware and clearly comprehending, still feeling pleasure in this body, by entering upon and remaining in the 3rd jhna, about which the Noble Ones declare: "In aware Equanimity one dwells in pleasure!", then this very same exercise: Awareness by Breathing should be developed regularly and dedicated much earnest consideration! Finally if one should wish: With the leaving all behind of both pleasure and pain , even as with the prior disappearance of both Joy and sorrow , may I enter and dwell in the 4th jhna, which is an entirely silenced state of utter awareness, purified by Equanimity of neither-pain-nor-pleasure, then this same praxis: Awareness by Breathing should be repeated daily & thus made a primary priority due to its importance! <....> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya. [V:316-7] section 54: npnasamyutta. Thread 8: The simile of the Lamp! Absorption by Breathing! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #122215 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:06 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: I have some confusion about that too, although it doesn't worry me. (I don't see it as a pressing issue.) There are two ways in which we can say there are "other" rupas out there. One is to say that rupas always arise in kalapas (groups) and so visible object, for example, arises along with audible object and other rupas, but only one of them can ever be experienced. > > Another way is to say that there are many kalapas out there. And that there are many cittas out there. > > That is where I am a little confused. Do those other dhammas out there exist in the same moment as the present citta and kalapa? Or do they exist in a separate moment (in a separate world of their own)? > > And does it matter? :-) I guess the question would be whether that understanding affects the understanding of what is occurring now. I guess if it's not an issue for understanding the present moment, it's probably not that important. The question of whether there is any conventional existence, or whether it is all just concept, is a more significant question, although I know for you and Scott -- and others -- it is settled, so not a problem. For me, it impacts whether there is a conventional teaching or not. You should feel lucky -- and probably do -- that that's not an issue for you. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #122216 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:11 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., Ken H., > > R: "...Do you believe that there is nothing in the universe but dhammas? In other words, there really are no bodies, worlds, stars, etc.?" > > Scott: Only dhammas: naama, ruupa, Nibbaana. > > R: "...For those who believe there are only dhammas, I have some confusion about the independent existence of rupas. There are rupas that arise without being experienced at all, so what is the nature of those rupas? They seem to represent some kind of independent physical existence apart from cittas." > > Scott: Ruupa is ruupa. Ruupa is not naama. Citta is naama. Ruupa exists separate from naama. Ruupa does not require naama in order to exist. Ruupa can arise from conditions that don't include naama, while naama can condition ruupa in other instances. Ruupa can be the object of naama. Naama and ruupa must be known separately. That's a clear explanation. Thanks. However, it means that there are "real conditions" and that they cause "real physical qualities" to arise [rupas] that are not experientially based. It means that there are things arising apart from those that are caused by sentient delusion. Somehow I think that has some implications for what kind of universe we're in. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #122217 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:17 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > R: "...What makes kamma patha of murder 'bad' if there is no body and no murder?...so perhaps there is a belief that physical kamma patha does not exist..." > > Scott: Akusala dhammas are real, are they not? They are naama, not ruupa. So when Buddha talks about mental, speech and physical kamma patha, how would you explain that? Physical kamma patha can't be nama, can it? In discussing kamma patha with Sarah, she explained that the intention [or volition] to kill reached its worst form in the act of murder, and has the worst kamma. That is a physical act on a conceptual being. Buddha talked about lifetimes of experiencing vipaka of being killed as the result of kamma patha of murder. So how would you translate that into paramatha terms? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #122218 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks for a great trip sarahprocter... Hi Everyone, As Phil said, we had wonderful discussions and a lovely 2-3 days together relaxing in the countryside. A.Sujin seemed very well and I'd like to also thank Phil and Jessica for all their great questions and lively contributions which A.Sujin appreciates so much as well. No long silences at all. All just another dream now as I sit with my mother overlooking the waves in Manly, recovering from our travels, doing basic household tasks and so on. I'll be slowly catching up with DSG, reading posts and starting replies soon, I hope. Thank you to everyone for so smoothly running the list in our absence - I once commented to James that our going away seems to do the trick:-) Phil, congratulations again on your great award - for others, Phil won a no 1 spot (while we were away) in a large Teacher survey. Look f/w to speaking to you next year, in a few months, next week or in a minute......however conditions dictate. This reminds me of just one comment from the very last discussion just after lunch. A friend told A.Sujin all about a lady she knows a little who is always looking for someone to have lunch with. No one really enjoys the lady's company, so whenever she calls people, they tend to decline. There were many more details. At the end, our friend told A.Sujin that when she returned home, she was inclined to call this lady up and invite her out for lunch. She wondered what kind of mental states these would be, because she had some hesitation and mixed feelings about the prospect. A.Sujin simply said that we spend a lot of time thinking and worrying about what will happen, what we'll do, what is best and so on instead of just being aware now of thinking as a dhamma, worry as a dhamma, seeing as a dhamma, visible object as a dhamma. When we specuate or are so concerned about future mental states, plans and so on, life is uneasy and difficult. Whatever the topic, whatever the situation, the only way is ever the developing of understanding now. Metta Sarah >________________________________ > From: philip >Back in my Bangkok hotel after a great trip to KK, wonderful discussions. The energy of A. Sujin to explain Dhamma, wow! And the amazing hospitality of Khun Deung Dhun (sp?) > >As I was saying to Sarah, I do intend to continue a try at more strictly limited internet use so I won"t launch into an account of any remembered discussion points. > >Thank you also Sarah and Jon for providing this website, which afforded the very valuable opportunity to listen to such a good Dhamma teacher as A. Sujin. > >Talk to you all again in a year or a few months, or next week, or in a minute when I realize I forgot to say something. But probably next year. #122219 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:28 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Ken H., > > K: "...Do those other dhammas out there exist in the same moment as the present citta and kalapa? Or do they exist in a separate moment (in a separate world of their own)?" > > Scott: Where you are there are ruupas arising and falling away in kalapas and I am nowhere near you. Where I am there are ruupas arising and falling away in kalapas and you are nowhere near me. I appreciate that explanation as it accords with my own common-sense view, that with any number of seeming experiences [forgive the catch-all word] taking place at any given time, there must be multiple conditioned objects of cittas arising at the "same time." However, it raises a couple of questions: 1. Since beings are conventional constructions, not actual, the multiple occurrences of dhammas suggests that there are "separate streams" of cittas occurring at the same time, each "stream" with its own sets of conditions causing various dhammas to arise. That makes sense to me, as it takes away the need for "beings" and replaces them with various arising cittas due to various conditions. So the "Scott" experience is really "the stream of cittas labeled as Scott," or "associated with that which is thought of as Scott," and likewise for the "cittas known as or associated with that which is referred to as Ken H." Does that work for you? 2. You said, perhaps just for convenience, that the cittas of "Ken H." and the cittas of "Scott" are "nowhere near each other." This suggests a separation in three-dimensional space. Is it your sense that three-dimensional space, distance, proximity, etc., actually exist? Or is that just a conventional way of referring to the fact that your and Ken's experiences are separate from each other? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #122220 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: The enlightened being also thinks in terms of people and things, but does so without any misconception regarding the true nature of things. So I wonder whether the line of inquiry you are wanting to pursue is of any relevance/use. > > The ignorance that needs to be dispelled is ignorance as to the true nature of dhammas, not ignorance as to how or why concepts are formed based on the experience of dhammas. I don't think the Buddha had much to say about the latter. Thanks, I appreciate your help on this. This may be obvious to some, but I wonder why, in the ultimate sense, it is necessary for an enlightened being to "live in the world" of concepts and "think in terms of people and things" even without any misconceptions? If in fact the arahat is completely clear as to the illusory nature of conventional forms, why not bag the whole thing completely and stop participating? Why continue to participate in the illusory format with illusory beings, which by the very nature of doing so reinforces for the unenlightened cittas the delusion that they actually exist as beings? I am mostly asking this to challenge the idea that the conventional world is so loosely held that it can be shaken off in enlightenment without much problem. For some reason even the arahat still "hangs around" for a period of time acting as if all of that flesh and form is real. And he disappears eventually in the "normal way," by exiting a decaying body, rather than just disappearing into thin air. Is there any good reason why he has to follow illusory laws of flesh and form, decay and aging, rather than cutting to the chase? In some Hindu traditions, avatars will spontaneously appear or disappear, leave bodies that don't decay, and other "tricks" that suggest transcendence of the illusion of form, but for some reason this doesn't seem to be popular among enlightened Buddhists. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #122221 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks for a great trip nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 27-jan-2012, om 8:23 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > A.Sujin simply said that we spend a lot of time thinking and > worrying about what will happen, what we'll do, what is best and so > on instead of just being aware now of thinking as a dhamma, worry > as a dhamma, seeing as a dhamma, visible object as a dhamma. When > we specuate or are so concerned about future mental states, plans > and so on, life is uneasy and difficult. ------ N:So glad you are looking with your mother at the waves in Manly. Our warmest regards to her. what were her thoughts about Sharon? she is very wise and used to such situations. I am thinking of her voluntary work, visiting dying people. Is she not doing that, like Rita, Howard's wife? What a good and timely reminder you wrote, worry, worry. Lodewijk was just operated on his right hand, not serious, more a correction of the fingers that became crooked. In a few weeks the other hand will be done. I have to help with everything, of course. I wish you a lovely time with your mother, Nina. #122222 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To die filled with longing is painful and blameworthy nilovg Dear Han, thank you for your last post of the series, and for your epilogue. I was glad to read Dr. Mehm Tin Mon's clear explanation of the three types of mara.nasanna nimitta. As you said, the habitual kamma is important. Listening and considering the Dhamma can become habitual kamma. I appreciate your quote of Mahaasudassana Sutta. I just heard Kh Sujin say (on a Thai recording): < Nobody knows when he will die, but before that, let us have more understanding of the Dhamma. So long as one is not an ariyan, one does not know whethere there will be rebirth where one has an occasion to hear the Dhamma again. We listen to the Dhamma in this life. In our past lives we sometimes listened, and sometimes we did not. But each time we listen, we should listen with understanding, not with desire. The aim is to relinquish clinging. When we know the moments of clinging and the moments there is no clinging, we are on the right way.> Only through right understanding of the reality appearing now its arising and falling away can be realized later on, in the course of the development of vipassanaa ~naa.nas. That will eventually lead to less clinging. We learn about naama and ruupa appearing one at a time, and in the beginning their arising and falling away cannot be known yet. More understanding of their different characteristics is needed first. If there is a little amount of understanding now, it can be accumulated and then understanding can arise again and in this way it can grow. It goes very gradually. King Mahaasudassana must have listened to the Dhamma and accumulated strong insight so that he could eliminate clinging to all his possessions. Nina. Op 26-jan-2012, om 22:01 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Do not die filled with longing. > To die filled with longing is painful. > To die filled with longing is blameworthy. #122223 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, Thank you for your extensive post on di.t.thi with all the text quotations, always useful. It is not easy to know di.t.thi when it actually arises in our life. We may take the body and the different naamas that arise for 'mine' more often than we ever thought. I like to add a little from my Cetasikas about personality view: < Clinging to personality belief is a form of wrong view which arises when one firmly believes that the five khandhas are ``self''. We can think of concepts such as ``body'' or ``mind'' but there may not necessarily be wrong view. However, the latent tendency of wrong view has not been eradicated so long as one has not become a sotāpanna. We all have accumulated personality belief and when there are conditions it can arise. Someone may cling with wrong view to the rūpa-kkhandha, he may take the body for self. When one becomes older and suffers from sickness, it is obvious that the body changes, but there may still be clinging to an idea of the body which belongs to a ``self''. What is taken for ``my body'' consists of different rūpas which arise and fall away. When we are walking, standing, sitting or lying down, it is not ``my body'' which can be directly experienced, there are only different elements, rūpas, such as hardness, softness, heat or cold, and these can be experienced one at a time. When mindfulness arises it can be aware of one reality at a time and in this way right understanding can develop and the wrong view of self can eventually be eradicated.> ------ Nina. Op 26-jan-2012, om 13:41 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > "The Perfect One is free from any theory (diṭṭhigata), for the > Perfect One has seen what corporeality is, and how it arises and > passes away. He has seen what feeling ... perception ... mental > formations ... consciousness are, and how they arise and pass away. > Therefore I say that the Perfect One has won complete deliverance > through the extinction, fading away, disappearance, rejection and > casting out of all imaginings and conjectures, of all inclination > to the 'vain-glory of 'I' and 'mine." (M. 72). #122224 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: No-control and its implications nilovg Dear Alex, Op 19-jan-2012, om 21:35 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I do not believe that any real wisdom can be gained until 5 > hindrances are suppressed as is said in AN5.51 . ----- N: The five hindrances are mentioned under the Application of mindfulness of dhammas. They can be objects of mindfulness and understanding when they appear. If there never is awareness of them they cannot be known as they are and hence not be eradicated. True, in samatha they are temporarily subdued, with the aim to be removed from attachment to sense objects. In another post you wrote: ------ N: For the development of samatha a suitable place is important, otherwise one could not concentrate on a meditation subject. You quoted the points mentioned in the Visuddhimagga pertaining to a suitable monastery, students, traveling, etc. It is said that certain things can be obstructions to samatha, but that they are not obstructions to vipassanaa. Except the tenth item concerning superknowledge. Thus, from this it follows that vipassanaa can be developed anywhere, at any time. Even at a famous monastery, crowded with visitors, insight can be developed. You wrote: I am not saying that ALL should do Dhutanga practice, all I am saying is that it is NOT counter to the teaching to do so properly. ------ N: We can appreciate it when reading about the Dhutangas, it really shows that when following those one is contented with little. It depends on accumulations to what extent those can be applied. Understanding of the different cittas is needed above all, lest one practises fewness of wishes with desire for certain results. -------- Nina. #122225 From: han tun Date: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To die filled with longing is painful and blameworthy hantun1 Online Now Send IM Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Nina: the habitual kamma is important. Listening and considering the Dhamma can become habitual kamma. Kh Sujin: But each time we listen, we should listen with understanding, not with desire. The aim is to relinquish clinging. When we know the moments of clinging and the moments there is no clinging, we are on the right way. Kh Sujin: We learn about naama and ruupa appearing one at a time, and in the beginning their arising and falling away cannot be known yet. More understanding of their different characteristics is needed first. If there is a little amount of understanding now, it can be accumulated and then understanding can arise again and in this way it can grow. It goes very gradually. Han: I have noted the useful comments. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #122226 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:11 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: This may be obvious to some, but I wonder why, in the ultimate sense, it is necessary for an enlightened being to "live in the world" of concepts and "think in terms of people and things" even without any misconceptions? If in fact the arahat is completely clear as to the illusory nature of conventional forms, why not bag the whole thing completely and stop participating? > =============== J: I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting as an alternative to living out one's allotted lifespan. But in any event, the fully-enlightened being has neither attachment to continued existence (after death) nor aversion to continued living until final parinibbana. He/she understands by direct experience the conditioned nature of things, and that dhammas are not-self, i.e., not subject to mastery. > =============== > RE: Why continue to participate in the illusory format with illusory beings, which by the very nature of doing so reinforces for the unenlightened cittas the delusion that they actually exist as beings? > =============== J: For reasons just explained, the enlightened being has no choice but to continue to live after attaining enlightenment. But I would not agree that this in any way reinforces wrong view in non-enlightened beings. As we know, the only cure for wrong view is the development of awareness/insight into the true nature of dhammas. > =============== > RE: I am mostly asking this to challenge the idea that the conventional world is so loosely held that it can be shaken off in enlightenment without much problem. For some reason even the arahat still "hangs around" for a period of time acting as if all of that flesh and form is real. And he disappears eventually in the "normal way," by exiting a decaying body, rather than just disappearing into thin air. Is there any good reason why he has to follow illusory laws of flesh and form, decay and aging, rather than cutting to the chase? > =============== J: The enlightened being does not "follow illusory laws of flesh and form", etc. He/she is bound by the laws of conditionality including that of kamma and vipaka. It is these laws that are 'responsible' for the continued existence of the fully enlightened being in the world, until his/her parinibbana. > =============== > RE: In some Hindu traditions, avatars will spontaneously appear or disappear, leave bodies that don't decay, and other "tricks" that suggest transcendence of the illusion of form, but for some reason this doesn't seem to be popular among enlightened Buddhists. > =============== J: The compilers of the Buddhist texts did not add their own embellishment to the events they were reporting on :-)) Jon #122227 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:29 am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 jonoabb Hi Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Jon, all, > > > J: Agreed, we have not fully understood anatta yet. Anatta cannot >be >understood unless and until there is the direct understanding of >dhammas. > >===================== > > A: It goes further than mere intellectual understanding. All parts of Noble Eightfold path need to be developed. N8P includes samma-samadhi which is defined as four Jhanas. > =============== J: Yes. Samma-samadhi is one of 8 factors that co-arise at path-consciousness moments. But as far as anatta is concerned, the understanding of this is developed as dhammas are directly experienced by panna > =============== > A: The more one understands anatta, the easier Jhanas can be. Why? Because one does not hold distracting thoughts, sounds, pains, to be "I, me, mine" and thus does not react with personal liking or disliking thus creating disturbance to peace of letting go. The less idea of Self, the less one is distracted, restless, lustful, irritated, etc... > > So if one cannot enter Jhana, then it is a big hint that one has not really understood Anatta, only parroting learned phrases. > =============== J: I am used to hearing you argue that jhana is a prerequisite for the development of awareness/insight (including awareness as to the anatta characteristic of all dhammas), but you now appear to be suggesting that awareness/insight (in the form of awareness of the characteristic of anatta) is a prerequisite for the development of jhana :-)) > =============== > A: "In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.103.than.html#fnt-1 > =============== J: Regarding the sutta passage "In a person of right concentration, right knowledge": Yes, where right concentration and right knowledge are co-arising path factors. Jon #122228 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:31 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...Since beings are conventional constructions, not actual, the multiple occurrences of dhammas suggests that there are 'separate streams' of cittas occurring at the same time, each 'stream' with its own sets of conditions causing various dhammas to arise. That makes sense to me, as it takes away the need for 'beings' and replaces them with various arising cittas due to various conditions..." Scott: It goes too far to think of 'streams' when 'streams' merely replaces 'beings' but the confusion remains. I don't bother to focus on 'streams.' These are concepts. R: "...Is it your sense that three-dimensional space, distance, proximity, etc., actually exist? Or is that just a conventional way of referring to the fact that your and Ken's experiences are separate from each other?" Scott: Space is a ruupa. Ruupa is a reality. I don't bother with the rest. While I play with the notion that there are ruupas arising when I'm not there, I don't think about it further. Scott. #122229 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:37 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "So when Buddha talks about mental, speech and physical kamma patha, how would you explain that?...So how would you translate that into paramatha terms?" Scott: Akusala of differing intensity. Ruupa is the reality that doesn't experience anything. Scott. #122230 From: "Jessica" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks for a great trip jessicamui Hello Sarah, Jon and everyone at the meetings, I must thank everyone for arranging and attending the meetings with Sujin. We have very good Dhamma discussions. I'm very impressed by Sujin's responses of always answering the questions by "here & now" experience. Some of her points really hit home for me. I shall remember them going forward. Hope to see Sarah and Jon in HK later this year and meet everyone online, and/or in Thailand again. Best Regards, Jessica. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > As Phil said, we had wonderful discussions and a lovely 2-3 days together relaxing in the countryside. A.Sujin seemed very well and I'd like to also thank Phil and Jessica for all their great questions and lively contributions which A.Sujin appreciates so much as well. No long silences at all. > > All just another dream now as I sit with my mother overlooking the waves in Manly, recovering from our travels, doing basic household tasks and so on. I'll be slowly catching up with DSG, reading posts and starting replies soon, I hope. Thank you to everyone for so smoothly running the list in our absence - I once commented to James that our going away seems to do the trick:-) > > Phil, congratulations again on your great award - for others, Phil won a no 1 spot (while we were away) in a large Teacher survey. Look f/w to speaking to you next year, in a few months, next week or in a minute......however conditions dictate. > > This reminds me of just one comment from the very last discussion just after lunch. A friend told A.Sujin all about a lady she knows a little who is always looking for someone to have lunch with. No one really enjoys the lady's company, so whenever she calls people, they tend to decline. There were many more details. At the end, our friend told A.Sujin that when she returned home, she was inclined to call this lady up and invite her out for lunch. She wondered what kind of mental states these would be, because she had some hesitation and mixed feelings about the prospect. A.Sujin simply said that we spend a lot of time thinking and worrying about what will happen, what we'll do, what is best and so on instead of just being aware now of thinking as a dhamma, worry as a dhamma, seeing as a dhamma, visible object as a dhamma. When we specuate or are so concerned about future mental states, plans and so on, life is uneasy and difficult. > > Whatever the topic, whatever the situation, the only way is ever the developing of understanding now. > > Metta > > Sarah > > >________________________________ > > From: philip > > >Back in my Bangkok hotel after a great trip to KK, wonderful discussions. The energy of A. Sujin to explain Dhamma, wow! And the amazing hospitality of Khun Deung Dhun (sp?) > > > >As I was saying to Sarah, I do intend to continue a try at more strictly limited internet use so I won"t launch into an account of any remembered discussion points. > > > >Thank you also Sarah and Jon for providing this website, which afforded the very valuable opportunity to listen to such a good Dhamma teacher as A. Sujin. > > > >Talk to you all again in a year or a few months, or next week, or in a minute when I realize I forgot to say something. But probably next year. > #122231 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:40 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...However, it means that there are 'real conditions' and that they cause 'real physical qualities' to arise [rupas] that are not experientially based. It means that there are things arising apart from those that are caused by sentient delusion. Somehow I think that has some implications for what kind of universe we're in." Scott: We know that naamas and ruupas are realities. We know that dhammas *are* the conditions. What's your point? Scott. #122232 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:39 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > RE: This may be obvious to some, but I wonder why, in the ultimate sense, it is necessary for an enlightened being to "live in the world" of concepts and "think in terms of people and things" even without any misconceptions? If in fact the arahat is completely clear as to the illusory nature of conventional forms, why not bag the whole thing completely and stop participating? > > =============== > > J: I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting as an alternative to living out one's allotted lifespan. Is there actually a "lifespan" for an arahat? Is it necessary for those enlightened cittas to have the "idea of a person" as regards "oneself," or to acknowledge or deal with "other people" at all? Why would they continue to do so? Isn't this just trafficking in conceptual constructions that are unnecessary for those cittas? What is the purpose? Why eat, walk, etc.? Isn't that promoting the idea of a body that needs to be maintained? I am having trouble understanding why full enlightenment does not simply proceed to immediate parinibbana and an exit from all illusory experiences. Isn't that the goal? It's not a matter of attachment to cessation, but why would cessation not occur naturally at that point, since there is no more delusion or attachment to illusory forms? > But in any event, the fully-enlightened being has neither attachment to continued existence (after death) nor aversion to continued living until final parinibbana. > > He/she understands by direct experience the conditioned nature of things, and that dhammas are not-self, i.e., not subject to mastery. Then why do all these conceptual entities and activities continue to arise? Why does the arahat not have "full-time direct experience of dhammas-only" at that point? It's a valid question, isn't it? Do illusory conceptual beings "come around" and force the arahat to dwell in concepts in order to communicate with illusory beings and activities? How would they still arise for him if it is pure hallucination? > > =============== > > RE: Why continue to participate in the illusory format with illusory beings, which by the very nature of doing so reinforces for the unenlightened cittas the delusion that they actually exist as beings? > > =============== > > J: For reasons just explained, the enlightened being has no choice but to continue to live after attaining enlightenment. Why? What does "live" mean in that context? If there are only dhammas and he is enlightened, why does he have to live out the illusion of living as a conceptually-composed being that is the product of delusion that he no longer has? That does not make much sense to me. > But I would not agree that this in any way reinforces wrong view in non-enlightened beings. As we know, the only cure for wrong view is the development of awareness/insight into the true nature of dhammas. I just don't see why conceptual forms don't just "go away" when there is no more delusion or false understanding of dhammas. > > =============== > > RE: I am mostly asking this to challenge the idea that the conventional world is so loosely held that it can be shaken off in enlightenment without much problem. For some reason even the arahat still "hangs around" for a period of time acting as if all of that flesh and form is real. And he disappears eventually in the "normal way," by exiting a decaying body, rather than just disappearing into thin air. Is there any good reason why he has to follow illusory laws of flesh and form, decay and aging, rather than cutting to the chase? > > =============== > > J: The enlightened being does not "follow illusory laws of flesh and form", etc. He/she is bound by the laws of conditionality including that of kamma and vipaka. But kamma and vipaka, as I understand you to normally say, have nothing to do with conceptual experiences, which are purely products of thinking and do not exist. I can understand that the arahat might still experience vipaka as a succession of pleasant or unpleasant dhammas, but *not* as delusional life-circumstances complete with bodies, markets and normal activities. They are just delusions are they not? They are not the "real experience" of vipaka, are they? > It is these laws that are 'responsible' for the continued existence of the fully enlightened being in the world, until his/her parinibbana. The "being" and the "world" are just concepts, are they not? As I understand it, concepts are *not* the result of any laws or conditions, and have no relation to the conditions that cause actual dhammas to arise. So am I wrong about this? Do conditions cause concepts to arise? How does that work? > > =============== > > RE: In some Hindu traditions, avatars will spontaneously appear or disappear, leave bodies that don't decay, and other "tricks" that suggest transcendence of the illusion of form, but for some reason this doesn't seem to be popular among enlightened Buddhists. > > =============== > > J: The compilers of the Buddhist texts did not add their own embellishment to the events they were reporting on :-)) Ha ha, well you mean that they would not report it if the Buddha spontaneously appeared or disappeared? I know that in one case he saw with his omniscient eye of knowledge the problem that one monk was having with falling asleep while "not meditating," [ha ha,] and he instantly transported himself there to give him some suggestions for staying awake [at least that's how I read it, rather than walking or taking an ox-cart.] So I guess he could transport himself psychokinetically when the occasion called for it. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #122233 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:11 am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >J:I am used to hearing you argue that jhana is a prerequisite for >the development of awareness/insight (including awareness as to the >anatta characteristic of all dhammas), but you now appear to be >suggesting that awareness/insight (in the form of awareness of the >characteristic of anatta) is a prerequisite for the development of >jhana :-)) >====================== Why can't it be both, as a sort of feedback loop where A strengtghens B, and B strengthens A? You need certain amount of wisdom to start meditating, and then the meditation helps to increase wisdom which makes meditation even deeper, and so on. > > =============== > > A: "In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.103.than.html#fnt-1 > > =============== > > J: Regarding the sutta passage "In a person of right concentration, right knowledge": Yes, where right concentration and right knowledge are co-arising path factors. > > Jon Right concentration is said to condition right knowledge (nana). With best wishes, Alex #122234 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: No-control and its implications truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, > ----- > N: The five hindrances are mentioned under the Application of > mindfulness of dhammas. They can be objects of mindfulness and > understanding when they appear. If there never is awareness of >them > they cannot be known as they are and hence not be eradicated. >=============== As I understand it, one reflects on PAST instances of hindrances. Not while hindrances are occuring. Wisdom and hindrance cannot coexist in same citta. > ------ > N: For the development of samatha a suitable place is important, > otherwise one could not concentrate on a meditation subject. >================ Is Satipatthana samatha or vipassana? Why did the Buddha recommend seclusion for Satipatthana? And in another sutta the Buddha did recommend different forest if one does not obtain insight and path/fruit in the forest one is staying in. with best wishes, Alex #122235 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:43 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Scott, Jon...? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "So when Buddha talks about mental, speech and physical kamma patha, how would you explain that?...So how would you translate that into paramatha terms?" > > Scott: Akusala of differing intensity. Ruupa is the reality that doesn't experience anything. So then even physical kamma would be nama. If someone commits murder, that is physical kamma patha, but 'murder' and 'someone' are both conceptualizations. Is there an explanation for what are the actual dhammas represented by such an act? What is really happening in the different degrees of kamma patha? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #122236 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:49 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "...However, it means that there are 'real conditions' and that they cause 'real physical qualities' to arise [rupas] that are not experientially based. It means that there are things arising apart from those that are caused by sentient delusion. Somehow I think that has some implications for what kind of universe we're in." > > Scott: We know that naamas and ruupas are realities. We know that dhammas *are* the conditions. What's your point? My point is that the arising of some rupas is independent of nama. There appear to be some other causes for parts of samsara other than sentient delusion. I find this puzzling. It also means that even if all human delusion were to cease, there would still be the four elements and temperature and such causing rupas to arise...? Just seems like an odd sort of universe that doesn't have mountains, worlds, or bodies, but apparently has physical causation and rupas arising taking place all by itself forever. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #122237 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina (all) , thanks for your feedback. you wrote: Thank you for your extensive post on di.t.thi with all the text quotations, always useful. It is not easy to know di.t.thi when it actually arises in our life. D: and which cetasika accompanies the arising .. ;-) N:We may take the body and the different naamas that arise for 'mine' more often than we ever thought. D: yes, the attachment to pleasant feelings ( rupa / nama) and rejecting the unpleasant one, trying to replace them by the former. N: I like to add a little from my Cetasikas about personality view: Clinging to personality belief is a form of wrong view which arises when one firmly believes that the five khandhas are ``self''. We can think of concepts such as ``body'' or ``mind'' but there may not necessarily be wrong view. However, the latent tendency of wrong view has not been eradicated so long as one has not become a sotāpanna. We all have accumulated personality belief and when there are conditions it can arise. Someone may cling with wrong view to the rūpa-kkhandha, he may take the body for self. When one becomes older and suffers from sickness, it is obvious that the body changes, but there may still be clinging to an idea of the body which belongs to a ``self''. What is taken for ``my body'' consists of different rūpas which arise and fall away. When we are walking, standing, sitting or lying down, it is not ``my body'' which can be directly experienced, there are only different elements, rūpas, such as hardness, softness, heat or cold, and these can be experienced one at a time. D: I think we agree that we experience as 'hardness , softness , heat or cold 'is contact(passa) with -the states of - matter(rupa) , the 'elements ' earth,water, fire and air , conditioning feeling. N: When mindfulness arises it can be aware of one reality at a time and in this way right understanding can develop and the wrong view of self can eventually be eradicated.> ------ D: assumed due to this awareness there is disentchantment and so dispassion /detachment (of the wrong view which identifies) Much details to consider , begining with the "three general categories. -wrong views with fixed consequences (niyatamicchaditthi)...tend to undermine the basic principles of morality -speculative views (ditthigata) ..include all metaphysical theories , religious creeds, and philosophical tenets concerning issues that lie beyond the reach of possible experiential verification -personality views (sakkayaditthi) , the fundamental belief in a self or ego entity (from which all such views arise) " Ditthigata is an certainly an issue coming up again and again in lists discussions , niyatamicchaditthi seems to be trouble of some participants. But as you already emphasised , sakkayaditthi is the most important (as the background of both ) and to start with personality view is therefore recommendable. (coming next) with Metta Dieteer #122238 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:10 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "My point is that the arising of some rupas is independent of nama..." Scott: Yeah, that seems right. Scott. #122239 From: "azita" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:03 am Subject: Re: To die filled with longing is painful and blameworthy gazita2002 Hallo Han, > Dear Nina and others, > > "All things that are pleasing and attractive are liable to change, to vanish, to become otherwise. Do not, Sire, die filled with longing. To die filled with longing is painful and blameworthy." > > Han: Those words were what King Mahaasudassana asked his Queen to tell him just before his death. Azita: Was wondering if there are any stories - Jataka or otherwise - that look at birthing. I ask this bec have jst attended the birth of my granddaughter and altho dying can be difficult, I think birthing is equally difficult. I realise that when a human is actually born into the world, patisandhi citta had arisen and fallen away many months before, but to see that little ones expression immediately following entry out of mother and into air, was one of total shock as in 'where the hell am I?' I know that births are generally thought of as exciting events and dying is generally not, but to know that as long as we are not arahants these events will go on and on. Possibly no birthing stories as the one being 'born' wouldnt understand the words spoken to it anyway. > Do not die filled with longing. > To die filled with longing is painful. > To die filled with longing is blameworthy. A: I so like the above stanza, read it jst yesterday in a book. Good reminder, thank you Han. BTW, both new mother and baby are doing well, lots of attachment both emotionally and physically! Patience, courage and good cheer azita #122240 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:17 pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 jonoabb Hi Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Jon, all, > ... > A: Why can't it be both, as a sort of feedback loop where A strengtghens B, and B strengthens A? You need certain amount of wisdom to start meditating, and then the meditation helps to increase wisdom which makes meditation even deeper, and so on. > =============== J: So wisdom is one thing and meditation is another? > =============== > A: Right concentration is said to condition right knowledge (nana). > =============== J: As I understand it, right concentration would condition right knowledge by way of simultaneous arising (Pali: sahaajaata). Jon #122241 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:35 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: Is there actually a "lifespan" for an arahat? Is it necessary for those enlightened cittas to have the "idea of a person" as regards "oneself," or to acknowledge or deal with "other people" at all? Why would they continue to do so? Isn't this just trafficking in conceptual constructions that are unnecessary for those cittas? What is the purpose? Why eat, walk, etc.? Isn't that promoting the idea of a body that needs to be maintained? I am having trouble understanding why full enlightenment does not simply proceed to immediate parinibbana and an exit from all illusory experiences. Isn't that the goal? It's not a matter of attachment to cessation, but why would cessation not occur naturally at that point, since there is no more delusion or attachment to illusory forms? > =============== J: A number of points/questions here. 1. "Lifespan" is the conventional term for the period between a patisandhi citta and a cuti citta within a given stream of cittas. So as appropriate for an arahant as for anyone. 2. For the person who sees dhammas as they truly are and no longer mis-takes dhammas for a person or thing, life does not suddenly come to a halt. There are many factors at play. As one example: The wrong view in question is eradicated at stream-entry stage, but there still remain clinging to sensuous objects and to becoming (the latter not being eradicated until arahantship). 3. The experiencing of sense-door objects is followed by thinking about what has just been experienced. That is the fixed order (Pali: 'niyama') of things in samsara. It does not suddenly change for the arahant. 4. Certain past kamma has to run its course. > =============== > > J: He/she understands by direct experience the conditioned nature of things, and that dhammas are not-self, i.e., not subject to mastery. > > RE: Then why do all these conceptual entities and activities continue to arise? Why does the arahat not have "full-time direct experience of dhammas-only" at that point? It's a valid question, isn't it? Do illusory conceptual beings "come around" and force the arahat to dwell in concepts in order to communicate with illusory beings and activities? How would they still arise for him if it is pure hallucination? > =============== J: Conceptualising that is based on sense-door experiences is not regarded in the teachings as hallucinating. Yes, it's 'mind-made' in the sense that it is a composite of many different sense-door experiences (present and past) and mind-door processes. But it's not considered to be necessarily delusional. And since it's habitual (not to mention 'meaningful', i.e., useful) it continues. Without it, life would be a real mess :-)) > =============== > > J: For reasons just explained, the enlightened being has no choice but to continue to live after attaining enlightenment. > > RE: Why? What does "live" mean in that context? If there are only dhammas and he is enlightened, why does he have to live out the illusion of living as a conceptually-composed being that is the product of delusion that he no longer has? That does not make much sense to me. > =============== J: As mentioned above, any illusion (= wrong view) as to the way things are in terms of the 'existence' of people and things was eradicated at the (relatively early) stage of stream entry. So it's not something newly gained by the arahant. > =============== > RE: I just don't see why conceptual forms don't just "go away" when there is no more delusion or false understanding of dhammas. > =============== J: Conceptual forms are not necessarily the product of wrong view. As explained in previous posts, the problem is not the conceptualising as such, but the wrong view of dhammas. > =============== > > J: The enlightened being does not "follow illusory laws of flesh and form", etc. He/she is bound by the laws of conditionality including that of kamma and vipaka. > > RE: But kamma and vipaka, as I understand you to normally say, have nothing to do with conceptual experiences, which are purely products of thinking and do not exist. I can understand that the arahat might still experience vipaka as a succession of pleasant or unpleasant dhammas, but *not* as delusional life-circumstances complete with bodies, markets and normal activities. They are just delusions are they not? They are not the "real experience" of vipaka, are they? > =============== J: Vipaka is the experiencing of pleasant and unpleasant objects through the various sense-doors. For reasons explained above, sense-door experiences are inevitably followed by mind-door processes that think about the just-experienced sense-door objects. This is part of the way things are in samsara, regardless of the level of understanding/enlightenment of the individual. > =============== > > J: It is these laws that are 'responsible' for the continued existence of the fully enlightened being in the world, until his/her parinibbana. > > RE: The "being" and the "world" are just concepts, are they not? As I understand it, concepts are *not* the result of any laws or conditions, and have no relation to the conditions that cause actual dhammas to arise. So am I wrong about this? Do conditions cause concepts to arise? How does that work? > =============== J: Hoping what I've said above covers this question. > =============== > > J: The compilers of the Buddhist texts did not add their own embellishment to the events they were reporting on :-)) > > RE: Ha ha, well you mean that they would not report it if the Buddha spontaneously appeared or disappeared? I know that in one case he saw with his omniscient eye of knowledge the problem that one monk was having with falling asleep while "not meditating," [ha ha,] and he instantly transported himself there to give him some suggestions for staying awake [at least that's how I read it, rather than walking or taking an ox-cart.] So I guess he could transport himself psychokinetically when the occasion called for it. > =============== J: Yes, the Buddha could transport himself through space, by virtue of certain powers based on the development of jhana (and insight). But he did not claim to have 'transcended the illusion of form' in the sense you described as being held in some Hindu traditions. Jon #122242 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:38 am Subject: Reaching Formlessness ... bhikkhu5 Friends: If one wishes to experience Infinite Formlessness? The Blessed Buddha once explained: Bhikkhus, the concentration gained by Awareness by Breathing, when developed & cultivated, is of great fruit & big advantage... And how, Bhikkhus, is concentration by Awareness by Breathing developed & cultivated so that it is of great fruit & advantage? Bhikkhus, when one has gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, there one sits down cross-legged, having straightened one's body and back, and set up awareness around the nostrils, then, just plain aware of that itself, one breathes in, & just, solely aware of only that breathing itself, one breathes out... Breathing in long, one knows, notes and understands: I inhale long! Breathing out long, one knows, notes & understands: I exhale long! ... ... ... ( steps 2-15) ... ... ... One trains thus: Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe in! One trains thus: Contemplating relinquishment, I will breathe out! Therefore, Bhikkhus, if a friend wishes: May I, via the complete transcendence of experience of form, with the passing away and silencing of sensory reaction, without giving any attention to any experience of any diversity, detail or any difference whatsoever, just solely aware that this open space is indeed infinite & endless, enter & dwell immersed in the sphere of this infinitude of space, then this same concentration by Awareness by Breathing should be cultivated often and devoted with much wholehearted attention! Furthermore if such friend should wish: By the transcendence of this infinitude of space, just singly aware that consciousness is infinite, may I enter and dwell all immersed in that sphere of the infinitude of consciousness; then Awareness by Breathing should also here be trained often and devoted much sincere attention! Even further; if one should wish: May I, by wholly transcending this subtle sphere of the infinity of consciousness, only aware that there is nothing, enter & dwell in empty void of nothingness, then this very same exercise: Awareness by Breathing should be trained regularly and dedicated much earnest consideration! Even more; if one should wish: May I, by thoroughly transcending this delicate sphere of void nothingness, enter and dwell in the refined sphere of inert neither-perception-nor-non-perception, then this very same exercise: Awareness by Breathing should be trained regularly and dedicated much earnest consideration! Finally; if one should wish: By leaving all behind, and transcending even this placid sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, may I enter & dwell in the ultimate ceasing of perception & feeling then this very same sublime meditation: Awareness by Breathing should be repeated every day and thus given the primary priority! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikāya. [V:316-7] section 54: Ānāpānasamyutta. Thread 8: The simile of the Lamp! <...> Mindfulness of Breathing. Meditation manual by Bhikkhu Ñānamoli. BPS. 1998. http://what-buddha-said.net/library/pdfs/anapanasati.pdf On the formless (ārupa) Jhānas and Ceasing: Nirodha-samāpatti : http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/9_Stillings.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/jhaana.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/n_r/nirodha_samaapatti.htm Reaching Formlessness by Breathing! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <...> #122243 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:31 pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >J: So wisdom is one thing and meditation is another? These are two aspects of single N8P. With metta, Alex #122244 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:49 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. jonoabb Hi Rob E (and Scott) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Scott, Jon...? > ... > RE: If someone commits murder, that is physical kamma patha, but 'murder' and 'someone' are both conceptualizations. Is there an explanation for what are the actual dhammas represented by such an act? What is really happening in the different degrees of kamma patha? > =============== J: In the case of murder, the dhammas involved would include: - in one individual (stream of cittas): an act accompanied by the intention to kill - in another individual: cuti citta following upon the act. Jon PS Rob, you raised this same q in a post to me some time ago; apologies for needing a reminder to get a response back to you! #122245 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks for a great trip glenjohnann Hello Sarah and Nina Sarah, thanks you for the little snippet of conversation with A. Sujin regarding thinking and worry. So true, all the time. Another good reminder "what about now?" So lovely that your mother came with you back to Manly - I recall that February is her month with you and how much she looks forward to it. It was so nice seeing her again last year in Bangkok. Wishes to you, Jonothan and your mother for a good and gratifying time together. I always remember your mother's kindness and friendliness to me when I stayed at your home in Arundel a few times years ago - when we were all young! Nina, glad to hear that Lodewijk's surgery was not serious - still, something to recover from. I think of you both often and of course wish you well too. As you may have deduced from the posts here, Nina, I was to have traveled to Bangkok and KK for the discussions, however, some ongoing health issues (for the most part well under control, though, with a recent flare-up and problems with side effects of medications) made it very difficult to travel now. I thought of you and Lodewijk no longer being able to make the journey to Thailand. Really, not being able to travel and be there in person (thoughts to which we are very attached) is a reminder of the importance of understanding that panna can arise no matter where we are. Feeling disappointed and frustrated is the dosa flowing from the attachment - all to the idea of being there. Where there are conditions one will hear the true Dhamma and participate in discussions with friends. We need to appreciate the opportunity provided here on DSG for discussion and listening to the recordings. The important thing is the listening and/or discussing leading to wise reflection now and that can occur at home or in KK. I am not dismissing the opportunity afforded when people get together to discuss and listen to true Dhamma, just reflecting on when and where opportunities may occur - anywhere, any time, by conditions. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > Op 27-jan-2012, om 8:23 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > A.Sujin simply said that we spend a lot of time thinking and > > worrying about what will happen, what we'll do, what is best and so > > on instead of just being aware now of thinking as a dhamma, worry > > as a dhamma, seeing as a dhamma, visible object as a dhamma. When > > we specuate or are so concerned about future mental states, plans > > and so on, life is uneasy and difficult. > ------ > N:So glad you are looking with your mother at the waves in Manly. Our > warmest regards to her. what were her thoughts about Sharon? she is > very wise and used to such situations. I am thinking of her voluntary > work, visiting dying people. Is she not doing that, like Rita, > Howard's wife? > What a good and timely reminder you wrote, worry, worry. Lodewijk was > just operated on his right hand, not serious, more a correction of > the fingers that became crooked. In a few weeks the other hand will > be done. I have to help with everything, of course. > I wish you a lovely time with your mother, > > Nina. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #122246 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks for a great trip sarahprocter... Dear Jessica & Han >________________________________ > From: Jessica >I must thank everyone for arranging and attending the meetings with Sujin. We have very good Dhamma discussions. I'm very impressed by Sujin's responses of always answering the questions by "here & now" experience. Some of her points really hit home for me. I shall remember them going forward. >Hope to see Sarah and Jon in HK later this year and meet everyone online, and/or in Thailand again. ... S: Yes, "here and now" even now as we speak - just the same realities, seeing, hearing....lots of thinking about concepts. The concepts are just the objects of thinking - not real, so not conditioned, not impermanent. We had many discussions on this topic. Any questions left on it? Again, we were all delighted to have you with us. Han, Jessica was asking after you, having remembered meeting you at the Foundation once. She has just returned to Hong Kong after a stay in Myanmar, where she's been spending a lot of time in recent years. You'll be interested to hear that she met Dr Mehm Tin Mon and had a bag of his books with her to take back to Hong Kong because she's arranged for the Dr to come to H.K. to teach a course there in a few months' time. Like Nina, I appreciate your sharing of your series on Death with many quotes and your own wise reflections. We didn't contact you in Bkk because we only had a couple of days there and also, you'd said that you wouldn't be able to visit us anyway. So, I'm delighted to see you writing with such energy for Dhamma still. Best wishes for your health difficulties - it sounds as though you need to always have a companion when you go out now. Metta Sarah ===== #122247 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks for a great trip sarahprocter... Dear Nina, >________________________________ > From: Nina van Gorkom > >> A.Sujin simply said that we spend a lot of time thinking and >> worrying about what will happen, what we'll do, what is best and so >> on instead of just being aware now of thinking as a dhamma, worry >> as a dhamma, seeing as a dhamma, visible object as a dhamma. When >> we specuate or are so concerned about future mental states, plans >> and so on, life is uneasy and difficult. >------ >N:So glad you are looking with your mother at the waves in Manly. Our >warmest regards to her. what were her thoughts about Sharon? she is >very wise and used to such situations. I am thinking of her voluntary >work, visiting dying people. Is she not doing that, like Rita, >Howard's wife? .... S: She was doing some voluntary work at a hospice, but has 'retired' from it now. I haven't mentioned Sharon's situation yet. Again, as K.S said, better to understand the present reality and help as we can with metta, karuna and upekkha, than be too concerned about what we might do/what might happen in any situation in future. While I'm away, there's very little I can do. Her husband is in charge. Reflecting on kamma and upekkha now is helpful. ... >What a good and timely reminder you wrote, worry, worry. Lodewijk was >just operated on his right hand, not serious, more a correction of >the fingers that became crooked. In a few weeks the other hand will >be done. I have to help with everything, of course. >I wish you a lovely time with your mother, .... S: Our sympathies to Lodewijk. It must be dificult and frustrating for him not being able to use his hand while it recovers and then the other hand. Best wishes for speedy recoveries of both hands. My mother sends you both her very fondest and warmest greetings. Also, I passed on yours and Ann's good wishes to K.Sujin, her sister and K.Duangduen. They all wished you well too. Metta Sarah === #122248 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks for a great trip nilovg Dear Ann, I am so glad to hear from you, and to know that your health is reasonably well. I hope you can cycle again. Yes, I am very grateful to be able to listen to recordings at home and to correspond with dsg members. Such a good opportunity to consider the Dhamma. Nina. Op 28-jan-2012, om 6:37 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > Where there are conditions one will hear the true Dhamma and > participate in discussions with friends. We need to appreciate the > opportunity provided here on DSG for discussion and listening to > the recordings. #122249 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:03 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > > [RE:] If in fact, all conventional activities are hallucinatory in nature and do not actually take place, and/or have no relation at all to the arising of dhammas, then I could understand the idea that no hallucinatory dream-activity could have a "real" result in the "real" world of dhammas. So I wonder if that is the basis for this belief? > > > =============== > > > > J: What we take for conventional activities are in fact various dhammas, and these dhammas do condition other dhammas. Hope this answers your question. > > RE: It's a good start! It raises questions about what we are really referring to when we think we are referring to conventional objects and activities. Are we referring to real series of dhammas arising, but mis-understanding them as static entities instead of passing moments? I'd like to know more about how this takes place and how we misperceive the dhammas that are actually showing up; what is conditioned and how this leads to other dhammas showing up, which are then misperceived in turn as more conceptually-conceived objects and activities. Am I on the right track or not? > =============== J: As far as I know, the question of the mechanics of how dhammas are misperceived was not addressed by the Buddha. So I suspect it has little or no relevance to the question of escape from samsara. > =============== >> RE: Well I'm just looking for what is really there. We experience conventionally most of the time, and probably will for many years or lifetimes, even if we begin to understand the nature of dhammas theoretically. So I am wondering what this conventional experience of life consists of, and how it is composed, and how we can see into it or see through it. I have the idea that Buddha was directing us to do this, so we could begin to discern more correctly based on the teachings; and I wonder how that teaching makes a dent on what we think is real, but really is not. > =============== J: I do not read the teachings as directing us to inquire into 'what this conventional experience of life consists of, and how it is composed, and how we can see into it or see through it'. (If you have a particular sutta passage in mind, please mention it so we can consider.) I understand the teachings to explain that by virtue of coming to understand dhammas as they truly are, the mental qualities of ignorance and wrong view will be gradually eliminated. > =============== > RE: I understand theoretically that kusala arises and when recognized creates more kusala and understanding, but I don't understand what relation this theoretical operation has to what we actually experience as human beings. It seems like a subject that is set aside, rather than applied to what we normally find in everyday life. I mean, we have the equipment, we can theoretically see, discern and understand, but it does not seem that this is frequently applied in our theoretical talks, except to say that understanding and kusala in general can arise anytime. > =============== J: What you call the relation between dhammas and what we actually experience as human beings is not an area of relevance to the path (as I understand what you mean by that :-)) > =============== > > J: Firstly, only kusala deeds/actions (or, properly speaking, moments of consciousness) can bring kusala results. > > RE: I have heard this many times, but how does this actually take place? How does kusala arise originally, and how does that create an action that results in more kusala arising? How does this accumulate and how does this show itself "in time" as it seems that according to this description kusala just pops up in what seems a random sort of occurrence but which really isn't. > =============== J: As regards the question: "How does kusala arise originally?"; the Buddha explained that there is no first beginning to be known. As regards the question: "How does arising kusala does create an action that results in more kusala arising?"; arising kusala adds to the accumulated kusala tendency, which makes more likely its future re-arising. As regards the question, "How does arisen kusala accumulate?"; that's just the way things work (so we're told). As regards the question, "How does this show itself "in time" (given that, according to this description, kusala just pops up in what seems a random sort of occurrence but which really isn't)"; I'm not sure I understand the point of concern here. Perhaps you could rephrase -- thanks. > =============== > > J: Secondly, by 'kusala results' you perhaps mean moments of kusala consciousness. Moments of consciousness cannot be the 'result' of deeds. > > RE: Then are we talking of a world that is consciousness only? And do the objects of consciousness also arise in accord with those moments of consciousness and what they allow because of their own "internal" conditions? Is there an interaction between citta and "the world" or are you saying they are totally set apart and have no interaction at all? What happens when a certain action does take place? If this represents dhammas then those dhammas do have a nature, even if the activity per se does not. So what effect takes place from the dhammas that are "contained" within what seems to be a conventional action? None at all? Or can we identify certain types of dhammas by the type of activity they seem to arise with? For instance, clearly if someone commits murder, there must be akusala citta that intends to kill someone, culminating in akusala kamma patha. So that seems like there is a relation of some kind between certain kinds of dhammas arising and a resultant "conventional action." Can you clarify this for me? > =============== J: As far as I'm aware, there is nothing of any value to be gained from studying "conventional action". Regarding your comment: "clearly if someone commits murder, there must be akusala citta that intends to kill someone, culminating in akusala kamma patha. So that seems like there is a relation of some kind between certain kinds of dhammas arising and a resultant "conventional action."" I'm afraid I don't see the relevance of deducing the nature of cittas from the conventional action. The teaching is about directly knowing cittas as they arise. Perhaps you could expand on the significance of the approach you're putting forward. > =============== > > J: If you see dhammas as being "the real moment-to-moment reality", that should mean that it's dhammas that are to be known (given that the teaching is all about knowing things as they truly are). > > RE: Well, no one lives in a world of dhammas-only, even if that is all that really exists. It has been described that even the arahat goes back and forth experientially from dhammas to conventions so that they can eat, talk to people, etc., but they do so skillfully without delusion. So what is the proper view that we should take towards the conventional activities of living - none at all? Is what we eat, what we do, how we treat people, whether we kill or drink or follow vinaya, totally insignificant? Should we completely ignore conventional life as totally unimportant and consider all those teachings to be not part of Dhamma at all? > =============== J: Regarding "the arahat goes back and forth experientially from dhammas to conventions (so that they can eat, talk to people)". That is not a description I've met before. Can you remember where you saw it? Regarding "Is what we eat, what we do, how we treat people, whether we kill or drink or follow vinaya, totally insignificant?" Moments of intention accompanying deeds are significant. These moments are either kamma or they accumulate and may become kamma later. > =============== > > > > =============== > > > [RE:] While dhammas are not controlled and can't be manipulated, they do arise according to conditions and accumulations and they do have an orderly way of developing over time until they reach the stage of insight, powers, stream-entry etc., which are irrevocable stages that are not just subject to a hodge-podge of random dhammas. So there is an order of a sort created by conditions and accumulations as the path progresses. > > > > > > If you could explain to me how such an orderly development takes place over time - albeit a very long time - without any influence of any conventional choices, such as whether to read and study Dhamma, whether to meditate, whether to kill insects, animals or people, etc., and that all the foregoing are incidental and not associated with the path, perhaps I can understand how such a view is formulated. > > > =============== > > > > J: (Not all dhammas develop; only those that are kusala and akusala.) > > > > So-called conventional choices do have effects, in the sense that, as I mentioned at the beginning of this post, what we take for conventional activities are in fact various dhammas, and these dhammas do condition other dhammas. > > > > But obviously it's the dhammas rather than the apparent nature of the conventional activity that bring the result. > > Well what if meditation [sorry to bring it up] represents certain dhammas which condition other dhammas in turn -- which has been my view of the potential of meditation to create conditions for greater discernment; how is this off-track, and what kinds of dhammas *would* be represented by conventional activities, if I am barking up the wrong tree? > =============== J: Regarding: "if meditation represents certain dhammas which condition other dhammas in turn -- which has been my view of the potential of meditation to create conditions for greater discernment; how is this off-track?" I'm not sure I understand the question. Kusala intention, if kamma patha, brings the experiencing of pleasant objects, and akusala deeds bring unpleasant results. If you'd like to consider 'meditation' in particular, it would first be necessary to identify whether the mind-states involved are kusala or akusala. > =============== > > > [RE:] Right now it seems like an ideological choice to dismiss any conventional activities that seem to be promoted by the Buddha, and to translate them into incidental reports that at the same time really point to the totally separate reality of dhammas. For instance, all the talk of jhana is just incidental to the fact that everyone happened to be developing jhana at that time and so it presented an example for the Buddha, rather than the promulgation of a practice tool. If there is a clearer logic as to how all the admonitions and practices that were spoken of by the Buddha [and Buddhaghosa, et al] are totally unrelated to the path, I would like to understand how that actually works. > > > =============== > > > > J: Well here we come to a matter of interpretation. I've yet to see a passage quoted by you that is worded in the form of an admonition or practice, rather than as a description of kusala already developed (as understood in the commentarial tradition). > > I can't find a quote right now unfortunately, but I recall the Buddha saying "practice like your hair is on fire" and "strive unceasingly" or something to that effect. There are a number of statements like that, but I should hang onto these when I have them! I can't find them at the moment, but I have quoted them before. > =============== J: No rush. Just whenever you come across them. > =============== > > J: As regards "jhana as a practice tool", this is also a matter of interpretation, since jhana was never spoken of in these terms by the Buddha (happy to look at any texts you'd care to bring up on this). > > RE: I'll look around. I was looking at the Ananda sutta which follows a direct line from anapanasati to satipatthana to enlightenment factors to release, but not sure if that makes the point clearly. > =============== J: I'll be surprised if you're able to find any passage among the accepted texts that suppors the idea of "jhana as a practice tool" Jon #122250 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 27-jan-2012, om 20:02 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > N:We may take the body and the different naamas that arise for > 'mine' more often than we ever thought. > > D: yes, the attachment to pleasant feelings ( rupa / nama) and > rejecting the unpleasant one, trying to replace them by the former. ------ N: I was not referring to attachment to apleasant object, but to wrong view, to taking realities for self: "I","I", "I". --------- > > > N:... What is > taken for ``my body'' consists of different rūpas which arise and > fall away. When we are walking, standing, sitting or lying down, it > is not > ``my body'' which can be directly experienced, there are only > different elements, rūpas, such as hardness, softness, heat or cold, > and these can be experienced one at a time. ------- > > D: I think we agree that we experience as 'hardness , softness , > heat or cold 'is contact(passa) with -the states of - matter > (rupa) , the 'elements ' earth,water, fire and air , conditioning > feeling. ------ N: You are thinking here of the D.O. contact conditioning feeling. Certainly, this is true, but I am rather thinking of the beginning of satipa.t.thaana, being aware of one element at a time so that gradually the idea of self can be worn away. -------- > > N: When mindfulness arises it can be aware of one reality at a time > and in this way right understanding can develop and the wrong view > of self can eventually be > eradicated.> > ------ > D: assumed due to this awareness there is disentchantment and so > dispassion /detachment (of the wrong view which identifies) -------- N: The relinquishment or dispassion can only come about in the course of the development of insight, not at the beginning stages. First it has to be thoroughly known what naama is, what ruupa is, and their characterstics have to be clearly distinguished. --------- > > D: -wrong views with fixed consequences (niyatamicchaditthi)...tend > to undermine the basic principles of morality > -speculative views (ditthigata) ..include all metaphysical > theories , religious creeds, and philosophical tenets concerning > issues that lie beyond the reach of possible experiential verification > -personality views (sakkayaditthi) , the fundamental belief in a > self or ego entity (from which all such views arise) " > > Ditthigata is an certainly an issue coming up again and again in > lists discussions , niyatamicchaditthi seems to be trouble of some > participants. > But as you already emphasised , sakkayaditthi is the most important > (as the background of both ) and to start with personality view is > therefore recommendable. (coming next) ------- N: It is fundamental, but not akusala kamma patha such as denuial of kamma and vipaaka. ----- Nina. > > #122251 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:37 am Subject: Discussions in Kaeng Kracan. 10 /3, 2011. (no 3) nilovg Dear friends, Kh S: The meaning of khandha: there is nothing left after it has gone. Visible object never comes back. Nothing is left from moment to moment. One needs courage to understand that there is no one in the world, that there is darkness, moments of experiencing, a lot of thinking, sound, a lot of thinking. There is no more visible object, no more sound, only memory. ------- Kh S: We hear the sound of a dog, and even the sound is just a nimitta, a sign, because of the succession of realities arising and falling away. Phil was talking about seeing people and about the difficulty of understanding that this is just cognizing a concept. Kh S: Seeing sees colour. Without the memory of nimitta there can never be the idea of tree and people. This shows the rapidity of the arising and falling away of realities. What appears is only nimitta (a sign of realities). Without memory and thinking we do not know what things are. In order to know the truth there must be understanding of what appears now, it must be understood as it really is. Whenever there is seeing of visible object, there comes to be the idea of something all the time and this is because of the rapidity of the different cittas succeeding one another. Only by the development of right understanding one can begin to see reality as it is. Understanding begins with listening before it can be realized that there are no people, only different realities appearing through different doorways. ------- Nina #122252 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: > N:We may take the body and the different naamas that arise for > 'mine' more often than we ever thought.> > D: yes, the attachment to pleasant feelings ( rupa / nama) and > rejecting the unpleasant one, trying to replace them by the former. ------ N: I was not referring to attachment to apleasant object, but to wrong view, to taking realities for self: "I","I", "I". D: but where is the difference, Nina? Ignorance (avijja)' meets' delusion (moha) , it is the thirst for the pleasant , where the ' self ' always appears : I want to have , this is mine , this I am (tanha/lobha) ...and carries on by attachment (upadana) ... (respectively thirst to 'fight' the unpleasant /dosa) > N:... What is > taken for ``my body'' consists of different rūpas which arise and > fall away. When we are walking, standing, sitting or lying down, it > is not > ``my body'' which can be directly experienced, there are only > different elements, rūpas, such as hardness, softness, heat or cold, > and these can be experienced one at a time. -------> > D: I think we agree that we experience as 'hardness , softness , > heat or cold 'is contact(passa) with -the states of - matter > (rupa) , the 'elements ' earth,water, fire and air , conditioning > feeling. ------ N: You are thinking here of the D.O. contact conditioning feeling. Certainly, this is true, but I am rather thinking of the beginning of satipa.t.thaana, being aware of one element at a time so that gradually the idea of self can be worn away. -------- D: yes , we may think in a different way : you focus on a 'khanda spot' (one element at a time) , whereas I consider the dynamic process of D.O.: Though it is true that suffering in brief is khanda attachment and that the 5 are representing the living being, but we cannot understand what constitutes the self (delusion ) by the khandas alone . For that we need to keep their embedment within the network of conditioning links in mind . I still have to read about Abhidhamma's treatment of D.O. , so far I suppose it concentrates mainly on khanda /paramattha) analyses from an anatta point of view . > N: When mindfulness arises it can be aware of one reality at a time > and in this way right understanding can develop and the wrong view > of self can eventually be > eradicated.>> ------ > D: assumed due to this awareness there is disentchantment and so > dispassion /detachment (of the wrong view which identifies) -------- N: The relinquishment or dispassion can only come about in the course of the development of insight, not at the beginning stages. D:I totally agree .. N: First it has to be thoroughly known what naama is, what ruupa is, and their characterstics have to be clearly distinguished. --------- D: I noted this emphases, however the priority isn't yet clear to me > D: -wrong views with fixed consequences (niyatamicchaditthi)...tend > to undermine the basic principles of morality > -speculative views (ditthigata) ..include all metaphysical > theories , religious creeds, and philosophical tenets concerning > issues that lie beyond the reach of possible experiential verification > -personality views (sakkayaditthi) , the fundamental belief in a > self or ego entity (from which all such views arise) " > > Ditthigata is an certainly an issue coming up again and again in > lists discussions , niyatamicchaditthi seems to be trouble of some > participants.> But as you already emphasised , sakkayaditthi is the most important > (as the background of both ) and to start with personality view is > therefore recommendable. (coming next) ------- N: It is fundamental, but not akusala kamma patha such as denuial of kamma and vipaaka. D: yes... that would be micca ditthi , isn't it? Assuming that the Law of Kamma is sufficiently understood by those eventually reading our postings , the fundamental carries importance. with Metta Dieter #122253 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:31 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: Yes, the Buddha could transport himself through space, by virtue of certain powers based on the development of jhana (and insight). But he did not claim to have 'transcended the illusion of form' in the sense you described as being held in some Hindu traditions. I'm sure he would not have behaved as Krishna did when he manifested for the good of mankind and proceeded to impregnate a large number of the local female goatherds. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #122254 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:52 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > .. > I'm sure he would not have behaved as Krishna did when he manifested for the good of mankind and proceeded to impregnate a large number of the local female goatherds. > :-)) Jon #122255 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:07 am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 jonoabb Hi Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Jon, all, > > > >J: So wisdom is one thing and meditation is another? > > > These are two aspects of single N8P. > =============== J: I understand wisdom as an aspect of the NEP because of course it is the first of the 8 path factors, each of which is a mental factor (wisdom, vitakka, viriya, etc). But I don't understand your reference to 'meditation' as an aspect of the NEP. Would you mind elaborating on this? Thanks. Jon #122256 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:20 pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 truth_aerator Hi Jon, >J: I understand wisdom as an aspect of the NEP because of course it >is the first of the 8 path factors, each of which is a mental factor >(wisdom, vitakka, viriya, etc). > >But I don't understand your reference to 'meditation' as an aspect >of the NEP. Would you mind elaborating on this? Thanks. >================================================ What about right effort + samma-sati + samma-samadhi? When it comes to right effort, especially 3rd and 4th definition points to meditation: ==================================================== (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html With best wishes, Alex #122257 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:28 pm Subject: Re: seclusion sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Sarah, all, > > >S: "Clear seeing" of what? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Anicca, dukkha, anatta and 4NT. .... S: What is anicca, dukkha, anatta? Taking the first Noble Truth - what is dukkha? .... > >S: Pls give me just one short quote which defines vipassana as >something >that must be "done in seclusion" and we can discuss it >further. > >=-=================== > > Example, MN17. It says that if insight doesn't occur in one forest, regardless of how many requisites for life one has, then one should leave it for the forest where one will establish insight, and reach Awakening. It is clear as clear can be. > > > > "Here, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu abides in a certain forest stretch. When abiding there, unestablished mindfulness does not get established, unconcentrated mind does not concentrate, not destroyed desires do not get destroyed, and the not attained noble end of the yoke is not attained; as for the four requisites of life for the one gone forth, robes, morsel food, dwellings, and requities when ill, are collected with difficulty. That bhikkhu should reflect, `I abide in this forest stretch, to me abiding in this forest, unestablished mindfulness does not get established, unconcentrated mind does not get concentrated, not destroyed desires do not get destroyed, and the not attained noble end of the yoke is not attained; as for the four requisites of life for the one gone forth, robes, morsel food dwellings, and requisites when ill, are collected with difficulty.' Bhikkhus, he should not abide in that stretch of forest, he should leave it by night or by day." > http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/017-vanapattha\ -sutta-e1.html .... S: When I read this first quote you give in answer to my question above: "one short quote which defines vipassana as >something >that must be "done in seclusion" ", I would have thought your quote says exactly the opposite - a) nothing said about vipassana as something that must be *done* and b) referring to how it may well not arise in the forest. .... > Please note, place DOES matter. Not every place is equal. Otherwise we would not have all these instructions for suitable place. Neither do "go to the forest..." is to be taken metaphorically as Ptsm and VsM clearly explain it to mean what it says. ... S: What matters is the hearing, wise consideration and direct understanding of dhammas at this very moment. If we're always thinking of other suitable places and times, there will never be any understanding of the present dhamma, such as the thinking and worrying and seeing of visible object now. Metta Sarah ==== #122258 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:35 pm Subject: Re: On effort sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > There are some who claim that one should not put in any effort or work hard. .... S: There is no "one" to do anything. ... >Some say that since Buddha teaches the abandoning desire, then one should not desire Awakening to occur. ... S: Desire is very, very common - there can be desire for any sense object, any concept. It's not a matter of *should not desire*, but of understanding desire when it arises. Desire leads to more desire. It's the opposite of detachment. When there is understanding, there is calm and detachment at such moments, no desire. ... >One should not desire to have more wholesome states of mind and one should not desire bad states to cease. For how can you Awaken which is ending of desire by desiring it? This is where careful analysis of original pali words is needed. The cause of suffering is craving, taṇhā. The craving is defined (in MN9) as craving for six sense objects. Awakening is the end of craving (taṇhā). There is a wholesome desire for ending of craving that is called by a different word, desire (chanda) which in this case is wholesome. .... S: When chanda is wholesome, it's not desire. There's no attachment at such moments. Chanda means "interest". For example, now there is interest in reading the Dhamma. Is it wholesome interest with detachment, understanding and calm or is it interest with attachment and desire for results? Only pa~n~naa can know when it arises. Metta Sarah ==== #122259 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:43 pm Subject: Re: seclusion in VsM sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > "[THE EIGHTEEN FAULTS OF A MONASTERY] > 2. Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults. > These are: largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond, > [edible] leaves, flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby port of entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. [119] One with any of these faults is not favourable. He should not live there." - VsM IV,2 > > > The point is that external circumstances DO matter. Not every place is equal to the other . There are more suitable and less suitable places... ... S: We must know whether we are talking about the monk's life and monastery and also whether we are talking about the attainment of jhanas or not. Our discussion was about the development of vipassana and the deeper meaning of seclusion. With regard to the development of satipatthana and the attainments of vipassana now, in daily life, the only hindrance is wrong view (and ignorance). You won't find a quote which specifies that vipassana can only be attained by a monk living in a forest monastery. There were countless numbers of lay disciples of the Buddha living in palaces, towns, villages and ordinary circumstances. For the monks, living in the forest was their natural abode. Metta Sarah ==== #122260 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:52 pm Subject: Re: Some intentional Dhutanga practices in VsM sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > Some say that Buddha's Dhamma teaches us that one should live normally lay life... .... S: Whatever dhammas arise in whatever lifestyle, such dhammas can be the object of understanding. ... > > But what About ascetic practices (VsM II,2) ? > > "i. the refuse-rag-wearer's practice, > ii. the triple-robe-wearer's practice, > iii. the alms-food-eater's practice, > iv. the house-to-house-seeker's practice, > v. the one-sessioner's practice, > vi. the bowl-food-eater's practice, > vii. the later-food-refuser's practice, > viii. the forest-dweller's practice, > ix. the tree-root-dweller's practice, > x. the open-air-dweller's practice, > xi. the charnel-ground-dweller's practice, > xii. the any-bed-user's practice, > xiii. the sitter's practice." > > "all the ascetic practices, that is to say, those of trainers, ordinary men, and men whose cankers have been destroyed, may be either profitable or [in the Arahant's case] indeterminate. [80] No ascetic practice is unprofitable." - VsM II,78 > ===================================================== S: Such ascetic practices described (dhutangas) were followed only with kusala or kiriya cittas, i.e. only sobhana (beautiful) cittas. Would this be the case if we were to follow them? For those like Maha Kassapa, the Buddha highly praised these dhutangas. He never suggested that all arahats, let alone all ariyans, let alone all bhikkhus, let alone or disciples should follow them. ... > > These are intentional activities that were recommended by the Buddha. > The point is that neither Buddha, nor Buddhaghosa taught that one should not do anything. There are profitable things to do! Doing something properly (like Dhutanga, meditation, etc) is part of the path. I am not saying that ALL should do Dhutanga practice, all I am saying is that it is NOT counter to the teaching to do so properly. ... S: I am saying that it is the development of right understanding and associated path factors that leads to enlightenment, not the *doing* of anything. If we have an idea of following the path by trying to emulate the daily life of the Buddha or Maha Kassappa, it indicates a lack of understanding at this moment. Wrong view, the hindrance to the path, is there. We can praise what should be praised - the cittas of the arahats free from kilesa and the examples following indicating the relinquishment of all attachment. The practice, patipatti, always comes back to this moment however. First there has to be the clear pariyatti - the clear understanding of the dhammas to be understood now. I appreciate all your quotes and consideration, but I believe it is anatta now, dhammas as anatta now that must be emphasised in order to really understand any passages in the texts. Metta Sarah ===== #122261 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:07 pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati and seclusion sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > I've heard strange teaching that Mindfulness of breathing is not for us. I've checked VsM and can't find definitive statement. > > The closest it seems is: ================================================================= > 155. Or alternatively, this mindfiilness of breathing as a meditation subjectwhich is foremost among the various meditation subjects of all > Buddhas, [some] Paccekabuddhas and [some] Buddhas' disciples as a > > [Alex: Please note that bracketed additions by translator are not found in actual text, and the text does affirm that Buddha's disciples can use it]. .... S: So does the Buddha say that it is an object of bhavana for all/any Buddha's disciples? With or without understanding? Are you referring to samatha of vipassana bhavana out of interest? Is there anything in the text which refers to *using it*? ... > > basis for attaining distinction and abiding in bliss here and nowis not easy to develop without leaving the neighbourhood of villages, which resound with the noises of women, men, elephants, horses, etc., noise being a thorn to jhana (see A.v,135), whereas in the forest away from a village a meditator can at his ease set about discerning this meditation subject and achieve the fourth jhana in mindfulness of breathing; and then, by making that same jhana the basis for comprehension of formations [with insight] (Ch. XX, 2f.), he can reach Arahantship, the highest fruit. That is why the Blessed One said 'gone to the forest', etc., in pointing out a favourable abode for him. VsM VIII, 155 > ========================================================== S: Is there any understanding now of calm? Of attachment? Of the distinction between these? At this moment of seeing, is there any attachment to the object? Would we like to see again? The development of samatha has to begin now from the very beginning, now by talking about the fourth jhana. The same applies to insight. Is there any understanding of visible object as a reality, as anatta, now? If not, no use in talking about breath and arahantship. ... > > And again it does clearly talk about the need for physical seclusion. Obviously this is not "try it while cooking" sort of thing to reach Arhatship. This is another example of favorable abode with help of which one can reach Arhatship. ... S: So now, we're not in the forest. Does that mean, wait until we are? What about calm now? What about right understanding now? Metta Sarah ===== #122262 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:20 pm Subject: Re: No-control and its implications sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > When it is cold, one can't merely wish "let it be warm". There is no control. Sure. ... S: Correct. ... >But what one usually does is put on more clothing, and/or turn on the heater. .... S: This is the illusion, the idea that everyone has before hearing about Dhammas. The Buddha didn't teach for 40 years just to encourage the idea that a person could put on more clothing. What we take for *one*, *clothing* and so on are just passing namas and rupas. Thinking and memory and other mental factors conceptualise about the various shapes and forms, thinking about clothes, people and heaters. As we read in the Satipatthana Sutta and commentary: "Within there is nothing called a soul that robes itself. According to the method of exposition adopted already, only by the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity does the act of robing take place. The robe has no power to think and the body too has not that power. The robe is not aware of the fact that it is draping the body, and the body too of itself does not think: "I am being draped round with the robe.," Mere processes clothe a process-heap, in the same way that a modelled figure is covered with a piece of cloth. Therefore, there is neither room for elation on getting a fine robe nor for depression on getting one that is not fine. Within. In one's own mental flux [abbhantareti attano santane]. Body too. Body too is only an ego-concept [kayapiti atta pa~n~natti matto kiyopi]. I = Karma produced body [ahanti kamma bhuto kayo]. Processes = External processes called robes [civara sankhata bahira dhatuyo]. Process-heap = The internal process-collection called the body [dhatu samuhanti kaya sankhatam ajjhattikam dhatu samuham]." **** >When one is hungry, one can't wish it away. But one goes and eats food. Here we have intentional actions. ... S: Again, just conditioned namas and rupas, no atta, no self who does anything. From the same text: "Within there is nothing called a self that is taking the bowl. As stated already, by the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity, there is the taking of the bowl. In this matter of taking the bowl, the bowl cannot think. Hands too cannot think. The bowl does not cognize that it is taken by the hands. Hands do not cognize that the bowl is taken by them. Just processes take a process-heap. It is comparable to the taking of a red-hot vessel with a pair of tongs. By way of the proceeding of reflective thought in this way, clear comprehension of non-delusion should be understood in bowl-taking." ... >Do they HAVE TO promote Self-Views? Does stream-enterer or higher avoids doing them and freezes and starves to death? Should one drop like insentient (lest one thinks about Self) log of wood? No. One does it without Self-Views. .... S: For the sotapanna, there is no idea of a Self, a Being, a Sotapannad doing anything. Just conditioned dhammas without any self-view, as you say. ... >Same with proper meditation outlined in suttas, VsM and Commentaries. Intention and wrong views are separate. It is perfectly possible to have intention and no wrong views. So what is at fault is wrong view, never kusala activity (such as meditation) itself. .... S: There are only kusala cittas, not "kusala activity". Meditation, bhavana, refers to panna. Can there be panna now? If so, this citta is meditation. There can be meditation cittas whilst getting dressed, looking for food or reading posts now. It depends on whether there is any understanding at this very moment. Metta Sarah ===== #122263 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unsubscribing sarahprocter... Dear Ann, (Howard & all), We thought of you often in Thailand and hope you'll be joining us there next time. As you wrote to Nina, there can be understanding anytime, any place - always opportunities for good reminders. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > Sorry, Howard, that you have unsubscribed feeling the way you do. While I am not a prolific writer here, I love to read posts and have found yours useful, thoughtful and thought provoking. My best wishes to you for continued study and understanding. As Sarah says, perhaps conditions will have you back with us some time. ... S: Well said. I know many of us here appreciate all Howard's contributions a lot - even if disagree with some of the points as is bound to happen on a discussion list. ... > The shortness of life, the tests that lie ahead, all things that we don't like to acknowledge, but when a dear friend experiences these in one way or another, it can condition more reflection and perhaps erode a bit the story that these things won't happen to us, at least not in the immediate future. Because we don't know, and as you said, we don't know what word will appear next on the computer let alone what sense ojbect will appear next. All by conditions. ... S: Yes, all true. Best of all is when there's no concern about *me* or what will *happen to us* at all - just passing dhammas. In KK, Jessica told K.Sujin she looked particularly well, with more energy than when she'd met her before. K.Sujin replied by saying something like "Really? I don't think about it at all." It's like when people ask her how she feels about repeating the same answers or about concerns for the Foundation and so on --- when there is less thinking of oneself, one's health, one's growing older, one's death, one's possessions and so on, life is simpler and *lighter*, lighter with less of a burden of worrying about oneself. ... >And so much of the time we go on in ignorance finding ourselves caught up in the stories of being able to direct our lives. Your experiences seem to provide occasion for urgency - but I find much of that too is of the akusala variety - ie. lobha for more understanding etc. Not all of it - but best know when it is lobha. ... S: Most of the day, lobha rules for sure. But, as you say, lobha can be known when it appears, just like all the other dhammas appearing now - seeing, hearing and so on. Any experiences just come back to the dhammas now. ... > > There is so much attachment to our feelings - our wants and the subsequent disappointments when things do not go the way we had anticipated or hoped. When one is fortunate enough to have heard the "right" dhamma the more one confronts these "stories" with understanding the more one can see the uselessness of the worry, grief, anxiety etc. I can see more and more how understanding of the presently arisen dhamma is the only way to understand anatta, little by little. Yes, it takes patience. It takes courage too. ... S: Well said. Again, so helpful to understand the real problems in life - the attachment and ignorance. Just dhammas now... ... > > I remember several times when Achan Sujin has looked at the group and asked (paraphrased here) if we have the courage to really understand the present moment, anatta. At first I thought it an odd question - I was thinking about it intellectually and that did not seem to take much courage. But then I found myself from time to time momentarily frightened at the thought of "no self". Perhaps this is because of more understanding, the moments of understanding preceeding the subsequent moments of ignorance and fear. I recognized that it does take courage to face the true nature of realities. I don't know of a mental factor of "courage", unless it is synonomous with or included with one of the cetasika's. I can see how panna will lead to courage to know,"face" realities. ... S: Courage - viriya. One of the perfections that has to develop with understanding. As you say, courage to face any dhamma that arises, any dhamma that appears now, instead of looking for another one. Again, just dhammas, not self. ... > > Achan Sujin has also often asked, when we speak of various moments of lobha, dosa etc., "whose lobha, dosa?". She explained that we can notice them, but it is still "my" lobha etc. when there is no direct understanding. When there is direct understanding, it is not mine. ... S: Yes, is there a concern to have less lobha, less dosa, more understanding? If so, "my" mental states for sure. I like your last comment: "When there is direct understanding, it is not mine." Please keep adding your comments, Ann - most helpful for us all and I appreciate all the mudita, the joy in others' good fortune, that you express. Anumodana! Metta Sarah ==== #122264 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unsubscribing nilovg Dear Sarah and Ann, I rejoiced in many of your remarks, so helpful. I add a few comments. Op 29-jan-2012, om 5:36 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > > Ann: > Sorry, Howard, that you have unsubscribed feeling the way > you do. While I am not a prolific writer here, I love to read posts > and have found yours useful, thoughtful and thought provoking. My > best wishes to you for continued study and understanding. As Sarah > says, perhaps conditions will have you back with us some time. > ... > S: Well said. I know many of us here appreciate all Howard's > contributions a lot - even if disagree with some of the points as > is bound to happen on a discussion list. > -------- N: I think of Howard, missing him. -------- > Ann: The shortness of life, the tests that lie ahead, all things > that we don't like to acknowledge,... > ... > S: Yes, all true. Best of all is when there's no concern about *me* > or what will *happen to us* at all - just passing dhammas. In KK, > Jessica told K.Sujin she looked particularly well, with more energy > than when she'd met her before. K.Sujin replied by saying something > like "Really? I don't think about it at all." It's like when people > ask her how she feels about repeating the same answers or about > concerns for the Foundation and so on --- when there is less > thinking of oneself, one's health, one's growing older, one's > death, one's possessions and so on, life is simpler and *lighter*, > lighter with less of a burden of worrying about oneself. > ------ N: Excellent reminder, less thinking of one's health, old age, approaching death. Less worry about oneself. I also remember when asking Kh Sujin whether she was tired: just for a moment was the answer. We make tiredness so important, as if it is lasting. -------- > > >Ann: And so much of the time we go on in ignorance finding > ourselves caught up in the stories of being able to direct our > lives. Your experiences seem to provide occasion for urgency - but > I find much of that too is of the akusala variety - ie. lobha for > more understanding etc. Not all of it - but best know when it is > lobha. > ... > S: Most of the day, lobha rules for sure. But, as you say, lobha > can be known when it appears, just like all the other dhammas > appearing now - seeing, hearing and so on. Any experiences just > come back to the dhammas now. > ... > >Ann: There is so much attachment to our feelings - our wants and > the subsequent disappointments when things do not go the way we had > anticipated or hoped. When one is fortunate enough to have heard > the "right" dhamma the more one confronts these "stories" with > understanding the more one can see the uselessness of the worry, > grief, anxiety etc. I can see more and more how understanding of > the presently arisen dhamma is the only way to understand anatta, > little by little. Yes, it takes patience. It takes courage too. > ... > S: Well said. Again, so helpful to understand the real problems in > life - the attachment and ignorance. Just dhammas now... > ... > Ann: ... I recognized that it does take courage to face the true > nature of realities. I don't know of a mental factor of "courage", > unless it is synonomous with or included with one of the > cetasika's. I can see how panna will lead to courage to know,"face" > realities. > ... > S: Courage - viriya. One of the perfections that has to develop > with understanding. As you say, courage to face any dhamma that > arises, any dhamma that appears now, instead of looking for another > one. Again, just dhammas, not self. > ... > N: I remember: patience, courage and cheerfulness, this is from the > sutta. The Buddha inpired the monks so that they would have courage > and gladness. (Thai: athaan rarung). There can even be gladness > when facing realities. > ------- > > Ann: Achan Sujin has also often asked, when we speak of various > moments of lobha, dosa etc., "whose lobha, dosa?". She explained > that we can notice them, but it is still "my" lobha etc. when there > is no direct understanding. When there is direct understanding, it > is not mine. > ... > S: Yes, is there a concern to have less lobha, less dosa, more > understanding? If so, "my" mental states for sure. I like your last > comment: "When there is direct understanding, it is not mine." > ------ N: Yes, I remember: whose lobha, dosa? Then you get kind of a shock and begin to realize how important we find ourselves. ------- Nina. #122265 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:38 am Subject: "he should leave it by night or by day." truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >"Here, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu abides in a certain forest stretch. >When abiding there, unestablished mindfulness does not get >established, unconcentrated mind does not concentrate, not destroyed >desires do not get destroyed, and the not attained noble end of the >yoke is not attained; as for the four requisites of life for the one >gone forth, robes, morsel food, dwellings, and requities when ill, >are collected with difficulty. That bhikkhu should reflect, `I abide >in this forest stretch, to me abiding in this forest, unestablished >mindfulness does not get established, unconcentrated mind does not >get concentrated, not destroyed desires do not get destroyed, and >the not attained noble end of the yoke is not attained; as for the >four requisites of life for the one gone forth, robes, morsel food >dwellings, and requisites when ill, are collected with difficulty.' >Bhikkhus, he should not abide in that stretch of forest, he should >leave it by night or by day." >http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/017-vanapatth\ a-sutta-e1.html > .... > S: When I read this first quote you give in answer to my question above: "one short quote which defines vipassana as >something >that must be "done in seclusion" ", I would have thought your quote says exactly the opposite - a) nothing said about vipassana as something that must be *done* and b) referring to how it may well not arise in the forest. > .... How can you miss the "Bhikkhus, he should not abide in that stretch of forest, he should leave it by night or by day."" Please note: 1) "He should not abide in that stretch of forest" and 2) "he should leave it by night or by day." The 1&2 are clear as clear can be instructions on what to do. If we dispute what they mean, then I am sorry, I can't continue the discussion. With best wishes, Alex #122266 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:49 am Subject: "endeavoring beings are clearly discerned" truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >============================ >S: There is no "one" to do anything. >=============================================== Actually there is puggala and attakari 160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain. 161. The evil a witless man does by himself, born of himself and produced by himself, grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem. 165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no one can purify another. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.12.budd.html "And which, monks, is the burden-bearer? That of which it should be said: the individual person, who is this venerable one, of such a name, of such ancestry. This, monks, is called the burden-bearer." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.022.niza.html#fnt-6 "So, brahmin, when there is the element of endeavoring, endeavoring beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer. I have not, brahmin, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How, indeed, could one moving forward by himself, moving back by himself say `There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer'?" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.038.niza.html With metta, Alex #122267 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:00 am Subject: "the householder never keeps up with the monk" truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S: We must know whether we are talking about the monk's life and >monastery and also whether we are talking about the attainment of >jhanas or not. >======================== And which lifestyle did the Buddha recommend? >There were countless numbers of lay disciples of the Buddha living >in >palaces, towns, villages and ordinary circumstances. >================================ They attained what they did despite their hindering circumstances. "As the crested, blue-necked peacock, when flying, never matches the wild goose in speed: Even so the householder never keeps up with the monk, the sage secluded, doing jhana in the forest." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.12.than.html Note: "the householder never keeps up with the monk," Of course, some householders were so advanced that they succeeded despite being householders. But is this applicable to us? >For the monks, living in the forest was their natural abode. Was it natural for rich Prince Siddhattha? Was it natural for other royal people who gave up their wealth and ran into the forest? With best wishes, Alex #122268 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:21 am Subject: Re: No-control and its implications truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >A: But what one usually does is put on more clothing, and/or turn >on >the heater. > .... > S: This is the illusion, >================== Ok, walk into -40 weather not wearing anything and tell me what happens... "Illusion" or not, we have to do these things or suffer the consequences. Between questionable philosophy and empiric truth, I side with the latter and I am sure Buddha would as well. Buddha has NEVER denied empirical (conventional) reality. With best wishes, Alex #122269 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "endeavoring beings are clearly discerned" moellerdieter Hi Alex, all, you wrote: >============================ >S: There is no "one" to do anything. >=============================================== Actually there is puggala and attakari D: good quotations , Alex. What there is , that is depending on the angle of view, isn't it? Supramundane : no doer can be found within the All of khanda. Mundane: who is writing this posting ? No one? Middle Way : there is a process of conditioned mental and bodily phenomenas (dhammas) going on, which is called Law of Dependent Origination: Ignorance conditions volition , volition conditions consciousness ...etc. .. which constitutes the delusion of self -I am . Please see as well postings regarding the unwholesome cetasika (sakkaya-) ditthi... with Metta Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: truth_aerator To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 4:49 PM Subject: [dsg] "endeavoring beings are clearly discerned" Dear Sarah, all, >============================ >S: There is no "one" to do anything. >=============================================== Actually there is puggala and attakari 160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain. 161. The evil a witless man does by himself, born of himself and produced by himself, grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem. 165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no one can purify another. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.12.budd.html "And which, monks, is the burden-bearer? That of which it should be said: the individual person, who is this venerable one, of such a name, of such ancestry. This, monks, is called the burden-bearer." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.022.niza.html#fnt-6 "So, brahmin, when there is the element of endeavoring, endeavoring beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer. I have not, brahmin, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How, indeed, could one - moving forward by himself, moving back by himself - say `There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer'?" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.038.niza.html With metta, Alex #122270 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sakkayaditthi moellerdieter Hi all, I found following extract very worthwhile to read ( pls see: Attta In Buddhism Part 3 - in Purification Of View by Ashin Janakabhivamsa, Chanmyay Sayadaw http://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/vipassana-meditation/d/doc1323.html ) with Metta Dieter "We are not Hindus but we have the concept of a soul, though the concept is not so strong because we follow the doctrine of the Buddha. We understand theoretically that there is no soul or self or that there is no everlasting entity, yet we believe that when a person dies, the soul comes out of the body and stays near his house or his corpse or his coffin. It Is a common belief that if we do not make offerings to the monks (bhikkhu ) and have not shared our meritorious deeds with the departed ones, the soul has to live around us. Though we believe the doctrine of the Buddha, we still have this concept of atta ditthi, and based on this concept we have another concept of personality, individuality, a being, a man or a woman -sakkaya ditthi (sakkaya here means nama and rupa, ditthi means wrong or false view). We have this concept because we do not comprehend the specific and common characteristics of the mind body processes; we take them to be everlasting. If you ask yourself, "Will I die tomorrow?" - you dare not answer the question. If I say you are going to die tomorrow, you will get angry with me because you have the idea of permanency of mental and physical processes. You think your mind body processes are permanent; at least until tomorrow. Yes, that is the idea of permanency. You hold it because you have not realised the appearance and disappearance of the process of mental and physical phenomena. If you see the constant, instant appearance and disappearance of mental and physical phenomena, you will not believe them to be permanent. Theoretically you understand that none of the mental and physical processes last even a second according to the doctrine of the Lord Buddha, but practically you do not believe it because you have not realised their impermanent nature. Only if you have personal experience of the Dhamma, do you conclude that it is impermanent. You can then accept, "I may not even live until tomorrow. I may die this very second because every phenomena is subject to impermanence Actually, when a man has not realised the arising and passing away of mental arid physical phenomena, he takes them to be permanent. The idea of personality is based on the belief in a permanent entity within us. So atta ditthi and sakkaya ditthi are the same. If we say, "Now I am lifting my hand", then you ask me who is lifting the hand. I will say, "I am lifting the hand." Who is that I? A bhikkhu, a man, or a being who is living? If we do not believe in the permanent nature of mind body processes, we do not take them to be a being. But actually, the dual process of mentality and physicality which constitutes a so called person is subject to change, arising and passing away but we do not realise it. We take this dual process to be a person, a being, a dog or an animal. This view is called sakkaya ditthi. Unless we can rightly comprehend these mind and body processes in their true nature we are unable to overcome or destroy this false view. That is why the Buddha teaches us to be mindful of any activity of mind and body, or any mental and physical processes as they really are, so that we can realise the two processes as natural processes. This insight is called knowledge of Sabhava lakkhana (right understanding of the specific characteristics or individual characteristics of mental and physical phenomena). This insight knowledge destroys the concept of soul or self, person or being which is the main cause of defilements (kilesas) such as greed, anger, delusion and conceit and so on. So we can say that this concept of a soul or a self is the seed of all defilements. When we have exterminated the seed there will not arise any defilements and we have got rid of suffering. That is: Sakkaya ditthi pahanaya sato bhikkhu paribbaje. Sakkaya ditthi pahanaya means to overcome this false view of a soul, a self or a person; sato means mindful; bhikkhu means monk. A bhikkhu who is mindful of phenomena must strive or practise to overcome the false view. When he is able to destroy that sakkaya ditthi, he is sure to deliver himself from all kinds of suffering. This sakkaya ditthi is the cause of all kinds of defilements or the seed of all defilements. So we have to try to exterminate it through right understanding of mental and physical processes by means of mindfulness meditation. May all of you practise this mindfulness meditation strenuously and attain the cessation of suffering. " #122271 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:40 am Subject: Re: "endeavoring beings are clearly discerned" truth_aerator Hello Dieter, all, We need to be careful to distinguish what kind of atta Buddha denied. He denied nicca and sukha atta. He denied Upanisadic sort of atman. But He obviously did not deny the emperic, visible here and now atta as a person (who is fully conditioned of course). This way we don't need to twist between "ultimate" and "conventional" truths. Buddha spoke the truth, period. With best wishes, Alex #122272 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:01 am Subject: Re: "endeavoring beings are clearly discerned" moellerdieter Hi Alex, you wrote: 'But He obviously did not deny the emperic, visible here and now atta as a person (who is fully conditioned of course). D: certainly, the Buddha did not deny the existence of the conventional person A: This way we don't need to twist between "ultimate" and "conventional" truths. Buddha spoke the truth, period. D: the 'Buddha spoke the truth' ( with your kind persmission :) comma, in a conventional or ultimate way depending on the audience period ;-) with Metta Dieter #122273 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:49 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sakkayaditthi kenhowardau Hi Dieter, Thanks for your series. The writer you quote here has given a very good description of anatta. But then he has fallen into the same old trap that every other Buddhist meditator has fallen into. Having failed to see a profound, difficult-to-see Path that could have been taught only by a Buddha, the venerable has substituted it with a silly, commonplace, conventional path that could have been taught by anyone. That is definitely not the way to go! ---- <. . .> > "So we have to try to exterminate it through right understanding of mental and physical processes by means of mindfulness meditation." ----- KH: Who, or what, is being referred to as "we"? Didn't the Buddha say the entire universe was just the fleeting, presently arisen, conditioned dhammas (no me, you or we)? When that teaching has been heard and properly understood, will we feel a need to "try"? Ken H #122274 From: "azita" Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:32 am Subject: Re: Thanks for a great trip gazita2002 Hallo Sarah, Sounds like KK was most beneficial for all, anumodana for sharing the discussions with us here at DSG, esp this last comment from Achjan. I know I sign off with 'patience, courage and good cheer' but am really only beginning to grasp the meaning of these words in relation to development of satipatthana. In the midst of worrying about events that might happen, how to deal with outcomes blah, blah, there may be thoughts of it all being impermanent dhammas, but that doesn't mean that worrying wont arise again and again. So this is where I think the patience, courage and good cheer comes into play, to begin again and again to be patient etc. and how wonderful it is to have friends that remind us that all of our happiness/sadness are only passing dhammas. BTW Amanah had a baby girl a week ago and all is well, but nani (me) has deeper frown lines and more grey hair, or should I say its gone white:) Patience, courage and good cheer Azita > A.Sujin simply said that we spend a lot of time thinking and worrying about what will happen, what we'll do, what is best and so on instead of just being aware now of thinking as a dhamma, worry as a dhamma, seeing as a dhamma, visible object as a dhamma. When we specuate or are so concerned about future mental states, plans and so on, life is uneasy and difficult. > > Whatever the topic, whatever the situation, the only way is ever the developing of understanding now. #122275 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:13 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E (and Scott) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Scott, Jon...? > > ... > > RE: If someone commits murder, that is physical kamma patha, but 'murder' and 'someone' are both conceptualizations. Is there an explanation for what are the actual dhammas represented by such an act? What is really happening in the different degrees of kamma patha? > > =============== > > J: In the case of murder, the dhammas involved would include: > - in one individual (stream of cittas): an act accompanied by the intention to kill Is the "intention to kill" a concept, or a dhamma? You also said: "an act accompanied by..." What is an "act" in dhamma terms? > - in another individual: cuti citta following upon the act. Again, when the act takes place, if there are in fact "only dhammas" in reality, what does the act consist of in dhamma terms? There is no being to kill, no body to destroy, no hand, no knife to strike the blow. So what does "the act" consist of in reality? > PS Rob, you raised this same q in a post to me some time ago; apologies for needing a reminder to get a response back to you! No problem, Jon - it seems that I have persistent probing-attempting vitakkha on this subject, even though it hasn't landed too clearly so far, so I guess it's just good exercise for the old cetasikas. :-) Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #122276 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:27 am Subject: Gracious is Gratitude! bhikkhu5 Friends: Gratitude appreciates all assistance! The Buddha indeed pointed out Gratitude as an important mental quality: These two people are hard to find in the world. Which two? The one who is first to do a kindness, and The one who is grateful and thankful for any kindness done. Anguttara Nikāya 2.118 I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay: Which two? Your mother and father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, & were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate and urinate right there on your shoulders, you would not thereby repay your parents. Even if you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way repay your parents! Why is that? Mothers and fathers do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them for long, and they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in faith; rouses his immoral mother & father, establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his unwise mother & father, settles & establishes them on a new level of understanding: It is in this way that one truly repays one's mother's and father's many and longstanding services and sacrifices. Anguttara Nikāya 2.32 Parents, compassionate to their family, are called Brahma, first teachers, those worthy of gifts from their children. So the wise should show respect, honour them with food and drink, clothing & bedding, and anointing, bathing, washing their feet. Performing these services to their parents, the wise are praised right here and after death rejoice in heaven. Itivuttaka 106 If this is what you think of me: The Blessed One, is sympathetic, is seeking our well-being, teaches us this Dhamma out of sympathy, then you should train yourself in being in harmony, cordial, and without conflict and train in yourselves cultivation of all the 37 fine mental qualities: The 4_Foundations_of_Awareness , the 4 right efforts, the 4_Feet_of_Force, the 5 Abilities , 5 powers, the 7 Links to Awakening, & the Noble_8-Fold_Way. Majjhima Nikāya 103 A Tathagata is worshipped, honoured, respected, thanked & shown gratitude by any follower, who keeps practicing the Dhamma in accordance with true Dhamma, who keeps practicing masterfully, who lives in and by the Dhamma! Digha Nikāya 16 We will undertake & practice those qualities that makes one a contemplative, so that all those who helped us by services of robes, alms-food, lodging, and medicines will bring them great fruit and great future reward. Majjhima Nikāya 39 Comments: In Pali, the word for gratitude = kataññu literally means to have a sense of what was done for one in the past, even when long ago. Remembering all help! A network of kindness and gratitude is what sustains whatever goodness there is, and ever will be in this - otherwise destitute & impoverished - world! Thus: Thank you for reading this! Source (edited extract): The Lessons of Gratitude by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/lessonsofgratitude.html http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Appropriate_Appreciation.htm Gracious is Gratitude! Thanx to all Hydro Donors :-) Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #122277 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: No-control and its implications nilovg Dear Alex, Op 27-jan-2012, om 19:15 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > ----- > > N: The five hindrances are mentioned under the Application of > > mindfulness of dhammas. They can be objects of mindfulness and > > understanding when they appear. If there never is awareness of > >them > they cannot be known as they are and hence not be eradicated. > >=============== > > As I understand it, one reflects on PAST instances of hindrances. > Not while hindrances are occuring. Wisdom and hindrance cannot > coexist in same citta. > ------- N: True. But when akusala has just fallen away, its characteristic can be object of mindfulness and right understanding as only a conditoned naama. This goes for any naama that is object of mindfulness, in a following process mindfulness and understanding can take that object. If anything is not clear, please say so, it is an important point. -------- > > > ------ > > N: For the development of samatha a suitable place is important, > > otherwise one could not concentrate on a meditation subject. > >================ > > A: Is Satipatthana samatha or vipassana? > ------- N: It is vipassanaa. For those who developed both samatha and vipassanaa jhaanacitta could be object of mindfulness and right understanding. ------- > N: Why did the Buddha recommend seclusion for Satipatthana? And in > another sutta the Buddha did recommend different forest if one does > not obtain insight and path/fruit in the forest one is staying in. > ------ N: The reason could be what I mentioned above. Or the monk was staying already in a forest, his accumulations. But no rule. ------- Nina. > #122278 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 28-jan-2012, om 18:54 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > > ------ > N: I was not referring to attachment to apleasant object, but to > wrong view, to taking realities for self: "I","I", "I". > > D: but where is the difference, Nina? Ignorance (avijja)' meets' > delusion (moha) , > ------- Ignorance and delusion are the same cetasika moha. Depending on the context, avijjaa or moha are used. -------- > D: it is the thirst for the pleasant , where the ' self ' always > appears : > I want to have , this is mine , this I am (tanha/lobha) ...and > carries on by attachment (upadana) ... (respectively thirst to > 'fight' the unpleasant /dosa) > ------- N: this is mine , this I am, this is myself. These expressions have been explained respectively as: lobha without wrong view, lobha with conceit, lobha with di.t.thi. They are different moments. ------- > > > N: You are thinking here of the D.O. contact conditioning feeling. > Certainly, this is true, but I am rather thinking of the beginning > of satipa.t.thaana, being aware of one element at a time so that > gradually the idea of self can be worn away. > -------- > > D: yes , we may think in a different way : you focus on a 'khanda > spot' (one element at a time) , whereas I consider the dynamic > process of D.O.: > Though it is true that suffering in brief is khanda attachment and > that the 5 are representing the living being, but we cannot > understand what constitutes the self (delusion ) by the khandas > alone . For that we need to keep their embedment within the network > of conditioning links in mind . > -------- N: Right understanding of what the khandhas (which include all realities) are, can eliminate wrong view. ------- > > D: I still have to read about Abhidhamma's treatment of D.O. , so > far I suppose it concentrates mainly on khanda /paramattha) > analyses from an anatta point of view . > ------- N: Abhidhamma's treatment of the D.O. is in complete agreement with the suttanta treatment. ------- > > > N: First it has to be thoroughly known what naama is, what ruupa > is, and their characterstics have to be clearly distinguished. > --------- > > D: I noted this emphases, however the priority isn't yet clear to me > ------ N: Take the characteristic of impermanence, this cannot be thoroughly known so long as we take naama and ruupa as a whole, that is, when they are not clearly distinguished. It has to be known precisely: what arises and falls away. Do insist if this is not clear yet, it is an important point. ------- > > ------- > N: It is fundamental, but not akusala kamma patha such as denial of > kamma and vipaaka. > > D: yes... that would be micca ditthi , isn't it? > Assuming that the Law of Kamma is sufficiently understood by those > eventually reading our postings , the fundamental carries importance. > -------- N: Micchaa di.t.thi includes all kinds of wrong view, there are many kinds and many degrees. > Understanding the law of kamma, this may be only theoretical. From > the first stage of tender insight on there is understanding of > kamma and vipaaka. Before that one does not clearly realize what is > vipaaka, since naama is not yet known as naama. > ------- Nina. > #122279 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thanks for a great trip sarahprocter... Hi Azita, I hadn't realised you weren't coming to Thailand at this time, so was sorry not to see you on our visit and in KK. >________________________________ > From: azita >Sounds like KK was most beneficial for all, anumodana for sharing the discussions with us here at DSG, esp this last comment from Achjan. >I know I sign off with 'patience, courage and good cheer' but am really only beginning to grasp the meaning of these words in relation to development of satipatthana. >In the midst of worrying about events that might happen, how to deal with outcomes blah, blah, there may be thoughts of it all being impermanent dhammas, but that doesn't mean that worrying wont arise again and again. >So this is where I think the patience, courage and good cheer comes into play, to begin again and again to be patient etc. and how wonderful it is to have friends that remind us that all of our happiness/sadness are only passing dhammas. .... S: Yes, wonderful to have such reminders and to have the present moment, the present dhammas stressed again and again. We get lost in all those conceptual stories about past and future so very easily. ... > >BTW Amanah had a baby girl a week ago and all is well, but nani (me) has deeper frown lines and more grey hair, or should I say its gone white:) ... S: Very best wishes to Amanah and her husband. I remember Amanah as such a lovely young lady - I'm sure she'll take good care of the little baby. I heard about the difficulties for her husband to get a visa to Australia, so hope they can all be reunited soon. On birth, a couple of texts for you previously quoted here, the first by Matheesha and Nina and the second by Scott: 1. Overcoming Birth and Death, AN 10:76, transl by Nyanaponika "If three things were not found in the world, the Perfect One, the Holy one who is fully enlightened, would not appear in the world, nor would his teaching and discipline shed their light over the world. What are these three things? They are birth, old age and death. Because these three are found in the world, the Prefect One, the Holy One who is fully enlightened, has appear in the world, and his teaching and discipline shed their light over the world. It is, however, impossible to overcome birth, old age and death without overcoming another three things, namely: greed, hatred and delusion." 2. Visuddhimagga, XVI, 37 (~Naa.namoli): "...When this being is born in the mother's womb, he is not born inside a blue or red or white lotus, etc., but on the contrary, like a worm in rotting fish, rotting dough, cess-pools, etc., he is born in the belly in a position that is below the receptacle for undigested food (stomach), above the receptacle for digested food (rectum), between the belly-lining and the backbone, which is very cramped, quite dark, pervaded by very fetid draughts redolent of various smells or ordure, and exceptionally loathsome. And on being reborn there, for ten months he undergoes excessive suffering, being cooked like a pudding in a bag by heat produced in the mother's womb, and steamed like a dumpling of dough, with no bending, stretching, and so on..." S: No wonder there was a look of "total shock" following "entry out of mother and into air"! Born to die - but opportunities to develop understanding with words of wisdom from "nani"! Please let us know how you all get on and whether Amanah's husband is able to join you. Metta Sarah ===== #122280 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:37 pm Subject: Re: To die filled with longing is painful and blameworthy sarahprocter... Dear Han, Just to say I really appreciated your post about King Mahaasudassana with your clear explanation of the Pali terms. Many thanks for sharing this along with your series. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > "All things that are pleasing and attractive are liable to change, to vanish, to become otherwise. Do not, Sire, die filled with longing. To die filled with longing is painful and blameworthy." > > Han: Those words were what King Mahaasudassana asked his Queen to tell him just before his death. <...> > [Han: The instruction by the King to his Queen how to speak to him continues.] > > "...Of your eighty-four thousand cities, Kusaavatii is the chief: abandon desire, abandon the longing to live with them...Of your eighty-four thousand palaces, Dhamma is the chief: abandon desire, abandon the longing to live there..." (and so on throughout, as verse 5). > > 2.12. At this, Queen Subhaddaa cried out and burst into tears. Then, wiping away her tears, she said: "Sire, all things that are pleasing and attractive are liable to change...Do not, Sire, die filled with longing... > > 2.13. Soon after this, King Mahaasudassana died; and just as a householder or his son might feel drowsy after a good meal, so he felt the sensation of passing away, and he had a favourable rebirth in the Brahmaa-world. ===== #122281 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:43 pm Subject: Re: On understanding & action sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > Why, other than kilesas, allow oneself to enjoy as much as one wants, and yet don't meditate? .... S: What about "meditation" now? Can it be at any other time? If citta with lobha arises now, can there not be "meditation" - awareness and understanding of the lobha as a dhamma, not "my" lobha? Isn't this what is meant when citta with lobha is given as the first example under cittanupassana in the Satipatthana Sutta?? Why put off awareness and understanding - sati sampajanna - until later? ... Doesn't it betray one's real intentions to say "don't be attached to precepts, meditation, attainments" and yet don't see the drawbacks of attachment to mundane things like cup of tea, travel, surfing, cup of tea, etc? .... S: Attachment is bound to arise throughout the day - only an arahat has no more attachment. The only time it can ever be known, ever be understood is at the present moment, regardless of what it is attached to, whether that be seeing, visible object, another reality or a concept . Metta Sarah ===== #122282 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sakkayaditthi moellerdieter Hi Ken H and all, you wrote: Thanks for your series. The writer you quote here has given a very good description of anatta. But then he has fallen into the same old trap that every other Buddhist meditator has fallen into. Having failed to see a profound, difficult-to-see Path that could have been taught only by a Buddha, the venerable has substituted it with a silly, commonplace, conventional path that could have been taught by anyone. That is definitely not the way to go!--- <. . .> > "So we have to try to exterminate it through right understanding of mental and physical processes by means of mindfulness meditation."---- KH: Who, or what, is being referred to as "we"? Didn't the Buddha say the entire universe was just the fleeting, presently arisen, conditioned dhammas (no me, you or we)? When that teaching has been heard and properly understood, will we feel a need to "try"? D: I suppose you misinterpret the meaning of 'properly understood' which involves deep penetration by insight. Insight does not come from accepting theory only , it comes when theory meets practise : the actual experience of what one has heard /read. For example trying to identify (sati) the moment (citta) in respect to its karmical consequences (vipaka due to wholesome/unwholesome kamma), which is the purpose of the 'Cetasika in daily life -project ' (by overviewing the 52 mindstates). Moreover there is a need to "try" the training of the Noble Path ( sila , samadhi , panna ) , which the Buddha even repeated before his passing away. The trap one can fall into is when one believes to have understood the ultimate truth, that now the conventional one can be left beside. This, Ken, is only realised by the Holy Ones. But we are still worldlings who need to care for wholesome action (kamma patha) so that mind development can take place. Alex quoted already useful sutta sources concerning conventional truth and 'doer' . I like to add an extract of MN 2 Interesting in particular the ditthi ' I have no Self ' 'I am not' , by which the delusioned mind just takes the converse of the proposition ' I am '. (translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu) (And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to. Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him, and arisen fermentations increase. "This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine - the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions - is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. "The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones - who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma - discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention. unquote with Metta Dieter #122283 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:49 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: What we take for conventional activities are in fact various dhammas, and these dhammas do condition other dhammas. > > ...Are we referring to real series of dhammas arising, but mis-understanding them as static entities instead of passing moments? ... > > =============== > > J: As far as I know, the question of the mechanics of how dhammas are misperceived was not addressed by the Buddha. So I suspect it has little or no relevance to the question of escape from samsara. It does make a difference to my understanding whether there is a distorted relationship between concepts and dhammas, or no relationship at all. You are suggesting what I think is the more sensible understanding - that "what we take for conventional activities are in fact various dhammas, and these...do condition other dhammas." I think if everyone here were to apply that formula to our discussions it would have a positive impact. Too many times we dismiss conventional realities completely and see them as pure inventions. As distorted perceptions in which we see that which is fleeting as solid and lasting, and in which we freeze images of dhammas and combine them to create a false sense of a stable universe which we can control, we can see how delusion actually works to deny the characteristics of the dhammas that actually arise. I think this is an important understanding. It also means that we can recognize the trace of dhammas in what we take for conventional realities. We can understand the properties of dhammas and recognize their fleetingness, at least intellectually, when we see conventional objects. > J: I do not read the teachings as directing us to inquire into 'what this conventional experience of life consists of, and how it is composed, and how we can see into it or see through it'. I only mean it in the same sense that you seem to mean it - that we can recognize that where we see conventional objects, there are really dhammas. Can we recognize the theoretical presence of those dhammas and how they condition other dhammas? That seems to be suggested by what you said above. (If you have a particular sutta passage in mind, please mention it so we can consider.) I think that is suggested in the sense that you have mentioned it, and that I am understanding it, in the satipatthana sutta, when the Buddha speaks about looking at conventional realities, such as body parts, and then later looks back at them and says that their reality is really that of the kandhas. I think there's also something similar in the early sutta on the 4 Noble Truths. If I find the passages I'm thinking of, I'll post them later. Can't do it right now. > I understand the teachings to explain that by virtue of coming to understand dhammas as they truly are, the mental qualities of ignorance and wrong view will be gradually eliminated. I think I understand that difference in emphasis. It is interesting, and I will think about it. Along those lines, what do the mental qualities of ignorance and wrong view consist of? Do they give rise to deluded thoughts about what exists? How do they manifest in various ignorant and wrong understandings? > As regards the question: > "How does arising kusala does create an action that results in more kusala arising?"; > arising kusala adds to the accumulated kusala tendency, which makes more likely its future re-arising. Okay, that is the most specific sense of this I have heard, and it makes sense. If we don't know the origin of kusala or of delusion and other akusala elements, I guess that's just the way it is. I take it that as the tendency to kusala accumulates it is "latent" until it reaches a force capable of arising as a kusala quality of some kind? When you say "kusala" is that really a category in its own right, or does it stand as a general category for other specific qualities that are wholesome in one area or another. For instance, samatha is kusala, panna is kusala, I would take it that cetasikas like my favorites vittakha and vicara and other functions would be kusala; so do these individual kusala qualities develop their own tendencies towards arising, or does kusala develop in an overall way, or both? How does kusala express, in other words, as one or another kusala quality, characteristic or function? > As regards the question, "How does this show itself "in time" (given that, according to this description, kusala just pops up in what seems a random sort of occurrence but which really isn't)"; > I'm not sure I understand the point of concern here. Perhaps you could rephrase -- thanks. Well, in a technical way, a moment of kusala could arise here and there as individual moments and pass completely unnoticed, though they will add a drop to the kusala tendency, but I would take it that when kusala accumulates to the point where it becomes a steadier tendency through accumulation, then we would see some sort of manifestation of kusala in a longer series of moments, due to the greater accumulated tendency. So if we notice that someone very clearly reaches out to someone to help them in a moment of spontaneous and sincere compassion, would that conventional event represent the accumulation of kusala, or would the accumulation and manifestation of kusala always be so fleeting that no one would be able to discern its results except someone who perceives dhammas directly? > > =============== > > > J: Secondly, by 'kusala results' you perhaps mean moments of kusala consciousness. Moments of consciousness cannot be the 'result' of deeds. I am talking about what you are talking about - kusala accumulations leading to more kusala. If there is a series of kusala moments that represent a greater accumulation of kusala, that would be the kusala result. But I wonder if we can see the echo of this in conventional metta and acts of compassion, at least when it really does have kusala behind it? > > =============== > > J: As far as I'm aware, there is nothing of any value to be gained from studying "conventional action". > > Regarding your comment: > "clearly if someone commits murder, there must be akusala citta that intends to kill someone, culminating in akusala kamma patha. So that seems like there is a relation of some kind between certain kinds of dhammas arising and a resultant "conventional action."" ... > I'm afraid I don't see the relevance of deducing the nature of cittas from the conventional action. The teaching is about directly knowing cittas as they arise. Perhaps you could expand on the significance of the approach you're putting forward. How does one directly know cittas? Isn't there some gradual development there as well? And how does that take place? I have to go, but I'll be back to look at the rest of this post later... Thanks for your answers. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #122284 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:37 am Subject: Re: On understanding & action truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >A:Why, other than kilesas, allow oneself to enjoy as much as one >wants, and yet don't meditate? > .... > S: What about "meditation" now? >==================================== Before one gets to a more appropriate place as outlined in detail in VsM, it is ok to develop understanding now. But let us be clear, it is helpful if one gets to a better place. >Can it be at any other time? Yes, and sometimes it helps to get to retreat. >If citta with lobha arises now, can there not be "meditation" - >awareness and understanding of the lobha as a dhamma, not "my" lobha? >================ Not during the moment when akusala (such as lobha) arises. It is common sense that one can contemplate better in a place where one is not distracted. >Why put off awareness and understanding - sati sampajanna - until >later? >============= Because in some place it is hindered very much. Just because some lay people in Buddha's time, after hearing Him talk to them, attain this or that stage - it doesn't mean that we today can do the same. Despite the hindrances those people were able to still attain this or that stage. As you know, commentaries insist that people today are less capable than people of Buddha's time. If so, it leads more credibility to what the suttas and VsM says about more helpful places. Of course once you are an Arahant, no place will cause ignorance or mindlessness to arise. But we are far from that. >S: Attachment is bound to arise throughout the day >============================ And in some places like strip club, busy shopping malls, etc, it can arise more. In the forest it would arise less because there is less external influence to stir up kilesas. With best wishes, Alex #122285 From: Lukas Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:41 am Subject: I am back szmicio Hi friends, I am back Poland now. A bit sick cause of long trip. I am gona to spend more time on DSG now. Best Lukas #122286 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:51 am Subject: Ego-Bondage! bhikkhu5 Friends: Belief in an Ego is a Bondage linking to Death! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha once explained: Bhikkhus, the uninstructed ordinary person regards his form as self, or self as possessing a form, or form as inside self, or self as inside a frame of form... This, bhikkhus, is called an uninstructed ordinary person, who is bound by bondage to form, who is bound by inner and outer bondage, who neither sees the near shore, nor the far shore, who grows old in bondage, who dies in bondage, who goes from this world to the next other world in bondage... Such one regards feeling, perception, mental construction & consciousness as a self or self as having feeling, perception, construction & consciousness, or feeling, perception, construction & consciousness as being inside the self, or a self as if hidden inside feeling, perception, construction & consciousness! Such one, Bhikkhus, is called an uninstructed ordinary person, who is bound by bondage, clinging, & inner chains to feelings, perceptions, mental constructions, and consciousness... Such one, Bhikkhus, bound by both inner & outer bondage, who neither sees this near shore, nor the far shore, who grows old in bondage, who dies in bondage, will pass on in bondage to the next world, still in bondage! <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikya 22:117 III 165 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html I-Me-Mine-Ego-belief is Death Bondage! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #122287 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:59 pm Subject: Re: I am back sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Hi friends, > I am back Poland now. A bit sick cause of long trip. I am gona to spend more time on DSG now. ... S: Welcome home! Hope you feel better soon and look forward to seeing you around more on DSG. We uploaded some more of the discussions from last year in KK at the bottom of the audio discussions with K.Sujin. I think you'll enjoy these recordings when you listen. Metta Sarah ==== #122288 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:11 pm Subject: Re: "he should leave it by night or by day." sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > S: When I read this first quote you give in answer to my question above: "one short quote which defines vipassana as >something >that must be "done in seclusion" ", I would have thought your quote says exactly the opposite - a) nothing said about vipassana as something that must be *done* and b) referring to how it may well not arise in the forest. > > .... >A: How can you miss the > > "Bhikkhus, he should not abide in that stretch of forest, he should > leave it by night or by day."" > > > Please note: > > 1) "He should not abide in that stretch of forest" > and > 2) "he should leave it by night or by day." .... S: Is it "one short quote which defines vipassana as something that must be 'done in seclusion' "? ... >A: The 1&2 are clear as clear can be instructions on what to do. If we dispute what they mean, then I am sorry, I can't continue the discussion. ... S: Instructions that vipassana must be "done in seclusion"? In the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion, PTS, Classification of the Jhanas,1799f) there is some detail about all the terms used in the descriptions such as `secluded','forest', `tree root', `jungle thicket' and so on. Under `vivitta.m (`secluded') we read that forest dwelling is not for everyone: ..... "What does he show by vivitta.m (`secluded')? He shows a suitable abode as a place of training for a course of practice (yoga) for that bhikkhu. For a forest dwelling is appropriate for one who has within him a certain number of qualities. But for one in whom they are not, it is inappropriate, since for such a one dwelling in the forest is like the jungle dwelling of black monkeys, bears, hyenas, leopards, deer and so on. Why? Because of having entered it on account of a need (cf Mi 19). For there is no benefit based on a forest dwelling at all for him. He fouls both forest dwelling and the forest dwellers and he creates distrust in the dispensation. But it is appropriate only for one in whom there are a certain number of qualities. For in a forest dwelling he establishes insight, reaches Arahatship and attains complete extinction; he glorifies all forest dwellings, he washes the head of forest dwellers and he extends the whole dispensation. That is why the Master said: `He frequents a secluded abode' and so on, showing a suitable abode as a place of training for a course of practice for such a bhikkhu." Are we "such a bhikkhu" with the qualities that makes forest dwelling appropriate? Metta Sarah ===== #122289 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:19 pm Subject: Re: "endeavoring beings are clearly discerned" sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >============================ > >S: There is no "one" to do anything. > >=============================================== > > Actually there is puggala and attakari .... S: As concepts only, just like Alex, Sarah and Buddha are concepts only. In reality, just cittas, cetasikas and rupas. ... > > 160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain. > > 161. The evil a witless man does by himself, born of himself and produced by himself, grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem. > > 165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no one can purify another. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.12.budd.html .... S: Just cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Do you think the mastery referred to in the first stanza (i.e arahatta phala) is attained with any idea of atta existing in reality? Metta Sarah ====== #122290 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:46 pm Subject: Re: "the householder never keeps up with the monk" sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S: We must know whether we are talking about the monk's life and >monastery and also whether we are talking about the attainment of >jhanas or not. > >======================== > > And which lifestyle did the Buddha recommend? .... S: For whom? As I just quoted: "For a forest dwelling is appropriate for one who has within him a certain number of qualities. But for one in whom they are not, it is inappropriate, since for such a one dwelling in the forest is like the jungle dwelling of black monkeys, bears, hyenas, leopards, deer and so on. Why? Because of having entered it on account of a need (cf Mi 19). For there is no benefit based on a forest dwelling at all for him. He fouls both forest dwelling and the forest dwellers and he creates distrust in the dispensation. " Did the Buddha recommend such forest dwelling for Ananda? For Anathapindika? For Visakkha? > >S:There were countless numbers of lay disciples of the Buddha living >in >palaces, towns, villages and ordinary circumstances. > >================================ > >A: They attained what they did despite their hindering circumstances. ... S: On the contrary, they knew their own accumulations. They knew what was suitable. Some went to the forests or mango groves against the Buddha's recommendation and without knowledge of what was suitable and found it was just a condition for more lobha, dosa and moha. If we go and live alone in the forest, wouldn't we be like these people too? It would be wrong view and wrong practice which would take one to the forest thinking that this is where insight must be developed. ... > "As the crested, blue-necked peacock, when flying, never matches the wild goose in speed: Even so the householder never keeps up with the monk, the sage secluded, doing jhana in the forest." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.12.than.html > > Note: "the householder never keeps up with the monk," ... S: The monk in the stanza is referring to the arahat "who has cut the ties [of rebirth], who has no clinging to sense-objects, who is free from the aasavas (intoxicants)" (stanza 13). On the other hand, the householder is referring to the worldling who "is unrestrained and destroys living beings" etc. We need to check each term carefully. For example, "doing jhana" - I haven't checked the Pali, but I expect it would be Jhaayati, or something similar - referring to insight and jhana development/attainment. ... > Of course, some householders were so advanced that they succeeded despite being householders. But is this applicable to us? ... S: Some bhikkhus attended on the Buddha, listened to the Buddha and still were overcome by defilements when they dwelt in the serenity of the forest or mango grove, like Meghiya. What is suitable at this moment for understanding is just the reality appearing now. Nowhere else is more suitable at this moment. When we think a lot about another lifestyle, about living in the forest, about a better place, there is just a lot of thinking about concepts with attachment and ignorance. No understanding at all at such times. ... > >S: For the monks, living in the forest was their natural abode. > > Was it natural for rich Prince Siddhattha? Was it natural for other royal people who gave up their wealth and ran into the forest? ... S: The Bodhisatta knew what was suitable for him. For the one about to become an arahat, there is no interest in the household life anymore. For other "royal people" it depended on their inclinations and accumulations. Many royal people became enlightened without running into the forest. Some royal people ran into the forest and were beset by defilements. We have to know for ourselves what is appropriate. Whichever way our life turns, there are only moments of seeing,hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and lots of thinking about such cittas and their objects. Can there be understanding now? Metta Sarah ===== #122291 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:51 pm Subject: Re: No-control and its implications sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >A: But what one usually does is put on more clothing, and/or turn >on >the heater. > > .... > > S: This is the illusion, > >================== > > Ok, walk into -40 weather not wearing anything and tell me what happens... "Illusion" or not, we have to do these things or suffer the consequences. Between questionable philosophy and empiric truth, I side with the latter and I am sure Buddha would as well. ... S: As the quotes I gave you indicated, no matter weather we wear or don't wear any clothes, it is an illusion to think that in reality there is anything other than citta, cetasika and rupa at such times. This is where the Buddha "sided":-) .... > > Buddha has NEVER denied empirical (conventional) reality. ... S: As conventional reality. Two truths - one of paramatha dhammas and one of conceptual 'truths' (sammuti sacca). The conceptual truths are thought about only. They don't arise, they don't fall, they don't exist in actuality. If there is no thinking now about the forest, where is it? Metta Sarah ===== #122292 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "endeavoring beings are clearly discerned" sarahprocter... Dear Dieter & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > >============================ > >S: There is no "one" to do anything. > >=============================================== > >A: Actually there is puggala and attakari > > > D: good quotations , Alex. > What there is , that is depending on the angle of view, isn't it? ... S: No, what there is, is just citta, cetasika and rupa, regardless of the angle of view. Whether a Buddha appears in the world or not, the Truths are the Truths, there are just dhammas which are anatta. ... > Supramundane : no doer can be found within the All of khanda. > > Mundane: who is writing this posting ? No one? ... S: Again, whether there is any understanding, any elightenment or not, "no doer can be found " within any of the khandhas. .. > Middle Way : there is a process of conditioned mental and bodily phenomenas (dhammas) going on, which is called Law of Dependent Origination: Ignorance conditions volition , volition conditions consciousness ...etc. .. which constitutes the delusion of self -I am . ... S: It is sakkaya ditthi which leads to the delusion of self-view and all other views. The Middle Way is the development of understanding of the khandhas now, one at a time. Each one arises and falls away, never to reappear. The Middle Way is the Eightfold Path. When the Path is developed, the Law of D.O. becomes apparent. .... > > Please see as well postings regarding the unwholesome cetasika (sakkaya-) ditthi... ... S: Thanks for sharing these as usual. I know you weren't addressing me, but hope you don't mind my adding a few comments:-) Metta Sarah ===== #122293 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:02 pm Subject: Re: I am back szmicio Dear Sarah, > S: Welcome home! Hope you feel better soon and look forward to seeing you around more on DSG. > > We uploaded some more of the discussions from last year in KK at the bottom of the audio discussions with K.Sujin. I think you'll enjoy these recordings when you listen. L: Wonderful. I am going to listen than. The last 3 months in Sweden, I listened a lot, I read a lot. So so helpful. Also a lot things happen, I felt in love(of course one way :P) etc. I will bring this topic soon. Best Lukas #122294 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 szmicio Dear Nina, > N: this is mine , this I am, this is myself. These expressions have > been explained respectively as: lobha without wrong view, lobha with > conceit, lobha with di.t.thi. They are different moments. L: Oh I didnt know. So this does not pertain to a different combinations of wrong view? sakkaya ditthi or something? Best Lukas #122295 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sakkayaditthi kenhowardau Hi Dieter, -------- <. . .> >> KH: Didn't the Buddha say the entire universe was just the fleeting, presently arisen, conditioned dhammas (no me, you or we)? When that teaching has been heard and properly understood, will we feel a need to "try"? D: I suppose you misinterpret the meaning of 'properly understood' which involves deep penetration by insight. -------- KH: I agree with your definition of `properly understood'(pativedha). As I said, when there is proper understanding of the conditioned world there is no concern for the future. There is no such thought as, "I must do something that will bring about right understanding in the future." Bring it about for whom? There is no self that will continue on, there are only dhammas. Dhammas have no concern for the future. They are disinterested. ----------------- > D: Insight does not come from accepting theory only, it comes when theory meets practise: the actual experience of what one has heard /read. ------------------ KH: Yes, it comes from both theoretical right understanding and from practice. In satipatthana the word 'practice' means direct right understanding of a conditioned dhamma. So it refers to patipatti-panna (another conditioned dhamma). It does not refer to any sort of conventional activity - such as sitting on a cushion or concentrating on the breath. ----------------------- > D: For example trying to identify (sati) the moment (citta) in respect to its karmical consequences (vipaka due to wholesome/unwholesome kamma), which is the purpose of the 'Cetasika in daily life -project ' (by overviewing the 52 mindstates). ----------------------- KH: Trying to have direct right experience is not the practice. It is not the practice of actual direct right experience; it is the practice of *trying* to have direct right experience. Furthermore, that kind of practice can only be done with wrong view. It can only be done with belief in control over dhammas. -------------------------------------- > D: Moreover there is a need to "try" the training of the Noble Path ( sila , samadhi , panna ) , which the Buddha even repeated before his passing away. -------------------------------------- KH: We must be very careful of wrong view. Wrong view is the view that denies and repudiates the Buddha's teaching. No matter how many times the true (profound, deep, concerned with anatta) Dhamma is explained, wrong view will always insist it is a just an ordinary, conventional, teaching. ------------------- > D: The trap one can fall into is when one believes to have understood the ultimate truth, that now the conventional one can be left beside. ------------------- KH: Yes, the conventional truth is that the Buddha was a sentient being with great power and control. But the ultimate truth is profoundly different. In ultimate truth there was no Buddha, there were only conditioned dhammas. They were conditioned purely by other conditioned dhammas (just like now). There was no influence exerted over them by a sentient being, or by any other concept. -------------------------- > D: This, Ken, is only realised by the Holy Ones. But we are still worldlings who need to care for wholesome action (kamma patha) so that mind development can take place. -------------------------- KH: There are only dhammas. Apart from dhammas there are no worldlings, no Buddhas, and no other beings. --------------------------------------- > D: Alex quoted already useful sutta sources concerning conventional truth and 'doer' . I like to add an extract of MN 2 Interesting in particular the ditthi ' I have no Self ' 'I am not' , by which the delusioned mind just takes the converse of the proposition ' I am '. --------------------------------------- KH: Yes, you have quoted Thanissaro's heterodoxy to me before, and I have strongly rejected it every time. I think this time I shall let it pass. Just as a change in tactics. :-) --------------------- > D: (translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu) <. . .> --------------------- KH: Translation *and total misconstruction* by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Ken H #122296 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 nilovg Dear Lukas, It is good you are back in Poland, now we will meet you more often in dsg. I missed your good questions and remarks. Op 31-jan-2012, om 6:09 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > N: this is mine , this I am, this is myself. These expressions have > > been explained respectively as: lobha without wrong view, lobha with > > conceit, lobha with di.t.thi. They are different moments. > > L: Oh I didnt know. So this does not pertain to a different > combinations of wrong view? sakkaya ditthi or something? ------ N: no, lobha in different combinations. This is mine (eta.m mama): lobha can also arise without wrong view, just being attached to a nice colour or a delicious taste. No special view about reality. This I am (esoham asmi): I am a king, I am so important, no special view about reality. This is myself (eso me attaa), there is a self I cling to. THis is explained in the commentary to the Muulapariyaaya sutta (Ven. Bodhi translated this, in the Root of Existence). Lobha, maana and di.t.thi are also calle the papa~ncas, they slow down the development of right understanding, as is said in the commentary. ------ Nina. #122297 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: 'N: I was not referring to attachment to apleasant object, but to > wrong view, to taking realities for self: "I","I", "I". > > D: but where is the difference, Nina? Ignorance (avijja)' meets' > delusion (moha) , > ------- Ignorance and delusion are the same cetasika moha. Depending on the context, avijjaa or moha are used D: yes, depending on the context . I think that moha has not been used within the context of ' not knowing the 4 Noble Truth' , which is the domain of avijja. Hence , I still see it as an advantage to consider moha to be a sub-category of avijja , pointing to the I-delusion (as synonym of bhava tanha), whereas the latter emphases the more fundamental lack of knowledge of the 4 Noble Truths. By that the corresponding links of D.O. process are easier to understand. But that was not what I meant here : attachment to a pleasant object (lobha ) is based on delusion , so no real difference and the terms avijja and moha are 'meeting' here N: this is mine , this I am, this is myself. These expressions have been explained respectively as: lobha without wrong view, lobha with conceit, lobha with di.t.thi. They are different moments. D: lobha without wrong view ? That would be a suprise to me ..any quotation available? N:: Right understanding of what the khandhas (which include all realities) are, can eliminate wrong view. D: yes right understanding or better right view is leading to disentchantment/dispassion and detachment : N: Abhidhamma's treatment of the D.O. is in complete agreement with the suttanta treatment. D: you mean treatment by 'The Modes of Depency ' Paccayakana Vinhanga ? pls see page 61 ff https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.dhammikaweb.com/wp-content/uploads\ /2010/09/Nyanatiloka_Guide_through_the_Abhidhamma.pdf&embedded=true (first impression : too many modes for a practical approach) N: N: First it has to be thoroughly known what naama is, what ruupa > is, and their characterstics have to be clearly distinguished. > --------- > > D: I noted this emphases, however the priority isn't yet clear to me > ------ N: Take the characteristic of impermanence, this cannot be thoroughly known so long as we take naama and ruupa as a whole, that is, when they are not clearly distinguished. It has to be known precisely: what arises and falls away. Do insist if this is not clear yet, it is an important point. D: I see , those characteristics we know from the Maha Satipatthana Sutta , i.e. the 4 foundations of mindfulness N: Micchaa di.t.thi includes all kinds of wrong view, there are many kinds and many degrees. D: we use ditthi already for wrong view (, sorry to be stubborn with the terms ) , it would make sense to me if ditthi is used for views not included within the Buddha-Dhamma and micca ditthi to emphasise opposition . Sutta context may show.. N: Understanding the law of kamma, this may be only theoretical. From > the first stage of tender insight on there is understanding of > kamma and vipaaka. Before that one does not clearly realize what is > vipaaka, since naama is not yet known as naama. D: you mean a clear realiziation of nama (rupa) is the forerunner for the understanding of wholesome action by body, speech and thought (kamma patha) ? with Metta Dieter #122298 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 4:15 am Subject: Re: "he should leave it by night or by day." truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >Under `vivitta.m (`secluded') we read that forest dwelling is not >for everyone: >============= But it is appropriate for some. And as your quote shows, not every place is appropriate for all. So it is not "any place will do for anyone". Your quote just proves my point that there are better or worse places. >Are we "such a bhikkhu" with the qualities that makes forest >dwelling appropriate? >============= Perhaps not yet, but it is ideal to look up to. And the point still remains that some places can be inappropriate for some people with lack of good qualities. With best wishes, Alex #122299 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 4:18 am Subject: Re: "endeavoring beings are clearly discerned" truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, > > Actually there is puggala and attakari > .... > S: As concepts only, just like Alex, Sarah and Buddha are concepts >only. In reality, just cittas, cetasikas and rupas. >==== Cittas/cetasika/rupa is a certain valid way of analyzing puggala. This does not refute the existence of puggala that the Buddha taught. With best wishes, Alex #122300 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 4:23 am Subject: Re: No-control and its implications truth_aerator Dear Sarah, > ... > S: As the quotes I gave you indicated, no matter weather we wear or don't wear any clothes, it is an illusion to think that in reality there is anything other than citta, cetasika and rupa at such times. This is where the Buddha "sided":-) > .... Somewhere I have posted quote from the commentary that says that ultimate teaching is NOT superior to conventional and that they both can lead to Arhatship. So much for denying conventional reality... In fact I think that it would be more appropriate to consider conventional reality more important than ultimate because we live in conventional reality and have to abide by its rules. >If there is no thinking now about the forest, where is it? It still exists where it is independent of thoughts or our cognition of it. If a person loses consciousness (and ability to think during that time). The world doesn't disappear. Other people, like surgeons, can perform operation on this unconscious person and when that person will wake up, his/her body would be modified by surgical procedure. Surgery under anesthesia can still occur. One doesn't need to be conscious and imagining/thinking about surgeons doing the work... It is empirical reality. With best wishes, Alex #122301 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 4:49 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 szmicio Dear Nina, > Lobha, maana and di.t.thi are also calle the papa~ncas, they slow > down the development of right understanding, as is said in the > commentary. L: papanca, I know that term, 3 mannanas, fantasies. gosh I got drunk today, not good to me, not good. I am so ignorant person. Lukas #122302 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 5:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: No-control and its implications moellerdieter Hi Alex, all you wrote: ... It is empirical reality .. I just like to emphasise this by adding : and the empirical person can not be denied , though embedded in a dynamic process according to the Law of Dependent Origination . I wonder why it is so difficult for some of our friends to accept that there is a conventional reality and an ultimate (?) A wise man once said: "if you or I were to say right now that "there is no doer", that would be the ego/mind talking because we're still identified with the mind and it's thinkingness. Only the Enlightened who have permanently dissolved all mental activity can say that there is no doer, just as the ego can't say the ego is an illusion. That's simply the ego playing it's clever games to keep consciousness identified with it. " with Metta Dieter ADVERTISEMENT #122303 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 6:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: No-control and its implications scottduncan2 Dieter, D: "...A wise man once said: "if you or I were to say right now that "there is no doer", that would be the ego/mind talking because we're still identified with the mind and it's thinkingness. Only the Enlightened who have permanently dissolved all mental activity can say that there is no doer, just as the ego can't say the ego is an illusion. That's simply the ego playing it's clever games to keep consciousness identified with it. " Scott: Who is this? I've looked at the website: http://www.thetruthsoflife.com/index2.html And find no author mentioned and a huge amount of new-age nonsense. Why are you quoting this and suggesting it is 'wise?' Scott. #122304 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 7:07 am Subject: Re: No-control and its implications scottduncan2 All, Me: "...Why are you quoting this and suggesting it is 'wise?'" Here is the link to the 'article:' http://www.thetruthsoflife.com/thereisnodoer.html And a more full quotation: "However, if you or I were to say right now that 'there is no doer', that would be the ego/mind talking because we're still identified with the mind and it's thinkingness. Only the Enlightened who have permanently dissolved all mental activity can say that there is no doer, just as the ego can't say the ego is an illusion. That's simply the ego playing it's clever games to keep consciousness identified with it. The Enlightened have no use for words except to explain things to those who still think words are important. Words only serve a purpose until it's realized that they don't serve a purpose. They are useful for the sake of explaining to 'others' that they are useless. When they happen spontaneously by themselves, in the moment, for the sake of 'others', in the form of writing or speaking, they serve a purpose. Words are only symbols and representations that cannot fully describe anything. The word chocolate is not chocolate. The Truth is beyond all words, and it's meant to be experienced, not merely talked about. But you don't really 'experience' it because there is no 'this' experiencing 'that' when there is only One. You are that One." Scott: I like the last bit: '...there is only One. You are that One.' Gi'e us a break, laddie. Scott. #122305 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 7:16 am Subject: Re: No-control and its implications scottduncan2 Dieter, Regarding: "However, if you or I were to say right now that 'there is no doer', that would be the ego/mind talking because we're still identified with the mind and it's thinkingness. Only the Enlightened who have permanently dissolved all mental activity can say that there is no doer, just as the ego can't say the ego is an illusion. That's simply the ego playing it's clever games to keep consciousness identified with it. The Enlightened have no use for words except to explain things to those who still think words are important. Words only serve a purpose until it's realized that they don't serve a purpose. They are useful for the sake of explaining to 'others' that they are useless. When they happen spontaneously by themselves, in the moment, for the sake of 'others', in the form of writing or speaking, they serve a purpose. Words are only symbols and representations that cannot fully describe anything. The word chocolate is not chocolate. The Truth is beyond all words, and it's meant to be experienced, not merely talked about. But you don't really 'experience' it because there is no 'this' experiencing 'that' when there is only One. You are that One." Scott: I see that it is Bodhidharma that is quoted. What could the father of zen possibly say that is relevant here? Scott. #122306 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 11:10 am Subject: Not Examining! bhikkhu5 Friends: Not Examining causes Assumption to Arise: The wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Blessed One and greeted him. Concluding their compliments, he sat down aside and asked the Buddha: Master Gotama, what is the cause, condition and reason, why these various speculative views arise in the world: This Universe is eternal, or the universe is not eternal. This universe is finite, or infinite. Vitality and the body are the same, or biological life, metabolism is one thing, the body is another. The Tathagata exists after death, or he does not exist after death. The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death. Or finally: The Tathagata neither exists, nor does not exist after death? The Blessed Buddha replied: It is, Vaccha, because of neither knowing form, nor feeling, nor perception, nor mental construction, nor consciousness, nor the cause of origin of form, feeling, perception, mental construction, and consciousness, nor the cause of ceasing of form, feeling, perception, construction, and consciousness, nor the way to cease form, feeling, perception, construction, & consciousness that these various speculative views, such as: "This Universe is eternal, finite etc. " arise in the world! This ignorance, this not seeing, blindness, this not understanding, this not fully knowing, this not breaking through, this not comprehending, this not penetrating, this not discerning, this not discriminating, this not differentiating, this not closely investigating, this not directly experiencing and realizing, friend Vaccha, is the cause, and is the reason, why those various speculative views arise in this world! <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikāya. Book III 257-263 The Vacchagotta section 33. Thread on Not Knowing: Aññānā Sutta (1-55) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Not Examining! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <...> #122307 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 4:43 pm Subject: Re: Buddhist View of Death (3) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: >...Whatever it may be, in the end, my past kusala kamma and my past akusala kamma will sort it out by themselves and come up with an appropriate result for my next rebirth. So, I do not have to worry. I will do the meritorious deeds as best as I can while I am still capable of doing it, and leave the results to my kamma.] ... S: I think this is the right attitude. There's no point in worrying or dwelling on what cannot be known or changed. K.Sujin also said something similar to a friend about just doing what is worthy while there are opportunities and not dwelling on the future. Pain as you described - according to kamma, we never know what painful bodily feeling will arise anytime. Of course, this doesn't mean we shouldn't take medicines as appropriate - medicines can be considered as food for the body too. Metta Sarah ==== #122308 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 4:56 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, I expect the following was clarified, but anyway.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > So when Buddha talks about mental, speech and physical kamma patha, how would you explain that? Physical kamma patha can't be nama, can it? ... S: All kamma is nama , cetana cetasika in particular- when it is strong enough, it conditions various rupas, such as those we call speech or deeds. ... > > In discussing kamma patha with Sarah, she explained that the intention [or volition] to kill reached its worst form in the act of murder, and has the worst kamma. ... S: I don't remember saying this, but certainly, certain kinds of murder, such as the killing of a parent, bring immediate rebirth in a hell realm, as do certain other akusala kamma pathas, as most people have read. ... >That is a physical act on a conceptual being. ... S: It is the strength of the intention that has conditioned what we refer to conceptually as a "physical act on a conceptual being". Just namas conditioning various rupas. ... >Buddha talked about lifetimes of experiencing vipaka of being killed as the result of kamma patha of murder. So how would you translate that into paramatha terms? .... S: Vipaka is always the result of one's own kamma, never of another's. Death consciousness, cuti citta is the result of the past kamma which also resulted in the birth consciousness, patisandhi citta and all the bhavanga cittas (life continuum cittas) of that same life-time. Metta Sarah ===== #122309 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 5:01 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti sarahprocter... Dear Scott, A very helpful transcript from a discussion in KK on pariyatti, #122168. Thank you for sharing it. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: <...> > KS: "Is the kusala with pa~n~naa which thinks. For example there can be thinking of the word 'dhamma.' With understanding or without understanding. It can be only the memory of the term 'dhamma' but at the same time, when one understands what 'dhamma' is, there can be longer story about dhamma. So [those] moments are moments of right thinking about dhammas, not about other things. But it's thinking, only thinking. Not 'me.'" > > Scott: Is this clear yet? ... Sarah: I remember we were having a discussion about pariyatti before and you asked many good questions. So I'd like to ask you whether this is clear now? Metta Sarah ===== #122310 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 5:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks for a great trip sarahprocter... Dear Ann (& Nina), I passed on your kind words to my mother who appreciated them and sends you her best wishes too. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: >Feeling disappointed and frustrated is the dosa flowing from the attachment - all to the idea of being there. Where there are conditions one will hear the true Dhamma and participate in discussions with friends. We need to appreciate the opportunity provided here on DSG for discussion and listening to the recordings. The important thing is the listening and/or discussing leading to wise reflection now and that can occur at home or in KK. I am not dismissing the opportunity afforded when people get together to discuss and listen to true Dhamma, just reflecting on when and where opportunities may occur - anywhere, any time, by conditions. ... S: Well said. One can be a discussion in Kaeng Krachan and falling asleep (as some found on the last day when we went to the restaurant by the dam for the usual lovely lunch, followed immediately by a discussion in a separate room before our trip back to Bkk), or find oneself lost in some other thoughts. It always comes back to the cittas now. As K.Sujin always reminds us, one can listen to anything, read anything, watch anything with or without wise attention, with or without understanding. There are opportunities for dana, sila, viriya, khanti, sacca, adhittana, adhimokkha, panna, nekkhama, metta, upekkha - all the perfections, any time at all - whilst having discussion, helping a family member or friend or stranger in the street or whilst eating a meal. Please share more of your wise reflections. Wishing you good health as well as wisdom for the Year of the Dragon. Metta Sarah p.s Nina, my friend Sharon's husband sent me a note to say there's a little improvement as a result of increased acupuncture. I told my mother about her but although my mother has attended to and assisted many people as they die, she has no experience of helping anyone in a coma. ========== #122311 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 7:15 pm Subject: Letter from Luraya szmicio Dear Dhamma friends (Phil) I met wise Dhamma friend(and sexy :P). Her name is Luraya and she is so eager to come to DSG and study Dhamma. Now she reads Acharn Sujin Perfections Leading to Enlightenment and Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. Originaly she's practicing vipassana meditation in a tradition of S.N. Goenka. She helped me so much, especially encouraging me not to drink and break siila. That's a girl from 'attraction to a nice girl problem' topic. I am attaching a letter I've got from her as a farewell gesture. I find this letter a good reminder. Also added our photos in a gallery. < Lukas, wonderful you! always filled of jokes and happieness! I want to thank you for the great time I had with you at the center and thank you for ofering us so much, letting me get to know you better! I want you to know that I really care about you and wish that you keep on being strong and proceed on the Path of Dhamma. It is not always easy of course the storms will go on and you might have days where you think better to quit. But there is one thing that is even harder than practicing vipassana - not to practice. Don't go on hurting yourself how temptating it might be to hang out with old friends! Please, do it for your own good! It would make me so happy to know you are at Dhamma Dipa :D You have travelled so long on the Path and I find it very inspiring to see a person like you who have been through so much heavy stuff to have the strenght to go up again and again after every fall! I already miss your 'the italian man who went to malta' voice, sitting next to and entertaining me while working. Lukas, I will never forget you and I hope to see you again at any dhamma place! Now I will take on your beautiful metta shirt and send all my metta to you and your stomach! I send you all my love, multiplied with all the love on earth! Keep on growing in Dhamma! Thank you for everything Lukas :D Mettahugs! Luraya > best wishes Lukas P.s I am starting to study Dhamma more. #122312 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 9:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks for a great trip nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 1-feb-2012, om 7:13 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Nina, my friend Sharon's husband sent me a note to say there's a > little improvement as a result of increased acupuncture. ------ N: I am glad acupuncture is helpful for Sharon. AS you said, also helping others can be a time to develop the perfections. As Kh Sujin said, we do not have to think of the perfections, they are all kusala through body, speech and mind. Now that Lodewijk cannot help me in the house I realize the amount of little jobs which are time-consuming he used to do. Nina. #122313 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 9:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 nilovg Dear Lukas, better listen to Luraya. What a lovely letter. Usually it is the company of bad friends. Read the Sigala sutta of the Diigha Nikaaya. Very good reminders about the company of bad friends. Nina. Op 31-jan-2012, om 18:49 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > gosh I got drunk today, not good to me, not good. I am so ignorant > person. #122314 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 9:26 pm Subject: Re: Letter from Luraya sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & Luraya, What lovely photos - thanks for putting them in the album! Thank you also for telling us about Luraya and enclosing her lovely note. I'm so glad she encourages you in good sila. You can encourage and inspire each other a lot in your Dhamma interest and studies! No problem:-) Luraya, I do hope you will join us here. Please ask any questions and share any of your reflections. Lukas has such a keen interest in the Dhamma and I'm sure you will have the same. Perhaps you will also listen to the audio recordings and discuss them with Lukas and the rest of us. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma friends (Phil) > I met wise Dhamma friend(and sexy :P). Her name is Luraya and she is so eager to come to DSG and study Dhamma. <...> #122315 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 9:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 szmicio Dear Nina, Yes, she is very into Dhamma. I've told her about you also. She also wrote a letter to our friend Lukas in prison, that is another great support and reminder. In that letter she explains to Lukas, anapanasati meditation. I will post that letter tomorrow. It's always good to hear a Dhamma from different perspectives. Best wishes Lukas > better listen to Luraya. What a lovely letter. Usually it is the > company of bad friends. Read the Sigala sutta of the Diigha Nikaaya. > Very good reminders about the company of bad friends. #122316 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 9:41 pm Subject: Re: Letter from Luraya szmicio Dear Sarah, Especially I like this short reminders: Luraya: "But there is one thing that is even harder than practicing vipassana - not to practice." and this one: "Don't go on hurting yourself how temptating it might be to hang out with old friends!" I am thinking what Phil will tell on this. Phil and Luraya seems to think very closely to each other. I mean siila anisamsa, the benefits of siila, they seem to understand so well and give me support. Nice to hear recently a new improved Phil :P . Going into right understanding more and more. Best wishes Lukas > What lovely photos - thanks for putting them in the album! > > Thank you also for telling us about Luraya and enclosing her lovely note. I'm so glad she encourages you in good sila. You can encourage and inspire each other a lot in your Dhamma interest and studies! No problem:-) #122317 From: "philip" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 10:49 pm Subject: Re: Letter from Luraya philofillet Hi Lukas ( and Luraya) Very happy to hear about your wonderful Dhamma friend, Lukas, and happy that you are back to listenibg, reflecting, discussing etc. Conditions are so unpredictable - now I am going a bit in a different direction. We're moving to a new apartment and today I packed all my Dhamma books away for awhile, I will be studying Japanese, writing, working on other things. But always opportunities to better understand dhammas. True, when we're not studying and listening and discussing, fewer reminders and easier to get lost in concepts about people and things. Look forward to discussing with you and L in the future, not for a little while... Metta hugs to both of you! Phil #122318 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Feb 1, 2012 11:46 pm Subject: Re: Letter from Luraya rjkjp1 Nice photos Lukas! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma friends (Phil) > I met wise Dhamma friend(and sexy :P). Her name is Luraya and she is so eager to come to DSG and study Dhamma. Now she reads Acharn Sujin #122319 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:38 am Subject: Re: to Lukas. Heedless in daily life ptaus1 Hi Sarah and Nina, > S: And I've lost the link Pt gave me for copying Pali chunks into > velthius, so look f/w to further assistance myself > ----- > N: I used to have a simple pad, but now the link takes me to > complicated things, they have changed. Sorry bit late in responding, this is the link to the velthuis-unicode converter I gave before: http://www.granthamandira.com/diCrunch/diCrunch.php It's maybe the simplest as it doesn't require any installations, setups, etc - it's just an ordinary web page basically. How to use: 1. On top you have two buttons with submenus - one to select the Source (like if your text is in Velthuis for example) and the second to select the Target - say you want your Velthuis to go into Unicode with diacritics - you select IAST Unicode. 2. Copy your Velthuis text and paste it in the top textbox (there's already some text there as an example when you open the page - just delete that one). 3. in the bottom left corner there's a button "click to convert" - when you click it, it should give you the converted text in Unicode in the bottom text box. Please ask if more help required. If you have a longer text to convert, let me know, maybe I can write a little Macro like the one I used to convert Nina's final book drafts from pCharter into Unicode so that Alan can publish them. Best wishes pt p.s. apologies for late responses and absence, was out of the country and then had some things to sort out, now should be getting better with time and catch up with dsg posts #122320 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 1:00 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: KS: "Is the kusala with pa~n~naa which thinks. For example there can be thinking of the word 'dhamma.' With understanding or without understanding. It can be only the memory of the term 'dhamma' but at the same time, when one understands what 'dhamma' is, there can be longer story about dhamma. So [those] moments are moments of right thinking about dhammas, not about other things. But it's thinking, only thinking. Not 'me.'" S: " So I'd like to ask you whether this is clear now?" Scott: I think so. The reference is to 'moments' and 'longer story about dhamma' and thus seems to refer, not to an imperceptible moment of thinking which is gone too quickly to register, but to thinking, and the 'thoughts' this entails - thinking with pa~n~naa. Scott. #122321 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pali converter. nilovg Dear pt, yes, it works, thank you. Nice to have you back, looking forward to your posts, Nina. Op 1-feb-2012, om 14:38 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Sorry bit late in responding, this is the link to the velthuis- > unicode converter I gave before: #122322 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "endeavoring beings are clearly discerned" moellerdieter Dear Sarah, all, you wrote: I know you weren't addressing me, but hope you don't mind my adding a few comments:-) D: you are wellcome anytime, Sarah ;-) S: There is no "one" to do anything. > >=============================================== > >A: Actually there is puggala and attakari > > D: good quotations , Alex. > What there is , that is depending on the angle of view, isn't it? ... S: No, what there is, is just citta, cetasika and rupa, regardless of the angle of view. Whether a Buddha appears in the world or not, the Truths are the Truths, there are just dhammas which are anatta. ... D: depending on your choice of view : conventional or ultimate ( D: > Supramundane : no doer can be found within the All of khanda> > Mundane: who is writing this posting ? No one?... S: Again, whether there is any understanding, any elightenment or not, "no doer can be found " within any of the khandhas. D: I am as stubborn as you , Sarah ;-) there is a conventional truth and there is an ultimate truth .. Yes,'no doer can be found ' within any of the khandhas, that has been taught . Ulltimate truth . How about conventional truth? (the doer ("I" ) of the former wrote about the latter ) With the words of the Buddha : see suttas , Alex quoted : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.12.budd.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.022.niza.html#fnt-6 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.038.niza.html furthermore M. 117:"I tell you, o monks, there are 2 kinds of right view: the understanding that it is good to give alms and offerings, that both good and evil actions will bear fruit and will be followed by results.... This, o monks, is a view which, though still subject to the cankers, is meritorious, yields worldly fruits, and brings good results. But whatever there is of wisdom, of penetration, of right view conjoined with the path - the holy path being pursued, this is called the supermundane right view (lokuttara-sammā-diṭṭhi), which is not of the world, but which is supermundane and conjoined with the path." (D:> Middle Way : there is a process of conditioned mental and bodily phenomenas (dhammas) going on, which is called Law of Dependent Origination: Ignorance conditions volition , volition conditions consciousness ...etc. .. which constitutes the delusion of self -I am . ... S: It is sakkaya ditthi which leads to the delusion of self-view and all other views. D: I speak in terms of D.O. (nama/rupa ) process , you speak of a characteristic of the cetasika ditthi , a mind state S: The Middle Way is the development of understanding of the khandhas now, one at a time. Each one arises and falls away, never to reappear. D: this assumes that the 4 foundations of mindfulness have been fairly contemplated and penetrated or as Ven. Nyanatiloka says : . "...the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta forms an illustration of the way in which these 4 contemplations relating to the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.) simultaneously come to be realized, and finally lead to insight into the impersonality of all existence." S: The Middle Way is the Eightfold Path. When the Path is developed, the Law of D.O. becomes apparent. D: yes . Adding: This ' Middle ' is relative to the individual, who approaches the Path ,e.g. the middle between ascesis and indulgence , finding one's right tune (the simile of the lute) towards the application /training of the path. with Metta Dieter #122323 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 8:48 am Subject: The Final Tools! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 3 Steps to irreversible Happiness? If Awareness by Breathing is frequently trained & refined over a period, the 4 Foundations of Awareness are gradually completed and all perfected... If the 4 Foundations of Awareness are frequently trained and fully refined, the 7 Links to Awakening are gradually completed and entirely perfected ... If the 7 Links to Awakening are quite frequently trained and all refined, then Release by Knowing is gradually completed & finally entirely perfected ... Only this release induced by understanding - itself - is the End of Suffering ... <....> Understanding Sees Light! Source: The Middle Length Sayings of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikya. Sutta 118. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html The Final Tools! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <....> #122324 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 11:32 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Jon. Part II. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: If you see dhammas as being "the real moment-to-moment reality", that should mean that it's dhammas that are to be known (given that the teaching is all about knowing things as they truly are). > J: Regarding "the arahat goes back and forth experientially from dhammas to conventions (so that they can eat, talk to people)". That is not a description I've met before. Can you remember where you saw it? That's just my understanding of what is said, that the arahat experiences dhammas directly, but also has concepts arise and is able to regard himself and other people in the conventional way, although without delusion. An arahat knows clearly that no person exists, that there are just dhammas, yet he is able to talk, teach, eat, etc. Is that not your understanding? > Regarding > "Is what we eat, what we do, how we treat people, whether we kill or drink or follow vinaya, totally insignificant?" > > Moments of intention accompanying deeds are significant. These moments are either kamma or they accumulate and may become kamma later. Well if that is so, why would you object to my idea that we can use the way we behave in the conventional world as signposts to the dhammas that are arising? If I punch someone in the face in anger, that's a pretty good sign that there are akusala dhammas accompanying that action, and vice versa, if I treat people with kindness and it is sincere, that there is an accumulation of kusala accompanying it? I understand that something may seem kusala and really be akusala, but that doesn't mean that there is no correspondence as a general principle. > > =============== Jon: > > > So-called conventional choices do have effects, in the sense that, as I mentioned at the beginning of this post, what we take for conventional activities are in fact various dhammas, and these dhammas do condition other dhammas. > > > > > > But obviously it's the dhammas rather than the apparent nature of the conventional activity that bring the result. > > =============== > > > > [RE:] Right now it seems like an ideological choice to dismiss any conventional activities that seem to be promoted by the Buddha... > > > > =============== > > > > > > J: Well here we come to a matter of interpretation. I've yet to see a passage quoted by you that is worded in the form of an admonition or practice, rather than as a description of kusala already developed (as understood in the commentarial tradition). > > > > I can't find a quote right now... > > =============== > > J: No rush. Just whenever you come across them. > > > =============== > > > J: As regards "jhana as a practice tool", this is also a matter of interpretation, since jhana was never spoken of in these terms by the Buddha (happy to look at any texts you'd care to bring up on this). > > > > RE: I'll look around. ... > > =============== > > J: I'll be surprised if you're able to find any passage among the accepted texts that supports the idea of "jhana as a practice tool" Like dhammas, these things seem to pop up when they feel like it. I've got to get in the habit of saving these quotes. I'll start a file, and wait for something to accumulate in it. :-) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #122325 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 11:45 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > I expect the following was clarified, but anyway.... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > So when Buddha talks about mental, speech and physical kamma patha, how would you explain that? Physical kamma patha can't be nama, can it? > ... > S: All kamma is nama , cetana cetasika in particular- when it is strong enough, it conditions various rupas, such as those we call speech or deeds. Actually this was a very helpful clarification above, because I was especially wondering about the attendant rupas that would be involved in physical kamma patha, and you have explained it. The cetana and the other namas involved create the kamma, and they also condition the rupas that we experience as action or a "physical" result. Or in the case of speech kamma patha, the rupas that we refer to as the "physical act" of speech. > > In discussing kamma patha with Sarah, she explained that the intention [or volition] to kill reached its worst form in the act of murder, and has the worst kamma. > ... > S: I don't remember saying this, but certainly, certain kinds of murder, such as the killing of a parent, bring immediate rebirth in a hell realm, as do certain other akusala kamma pathas, as most people have read. > ... > >That is a physical act on a conceptual being. > ... > S: It is the strength of the intention that has conditioned what we refer to conceptually as a "physical act on a conceptual being". Just namas conditioning various rupas. I wonder where the concepts involved come into play though? If "Murdering a parent" has an especially strong akusala cetana that conditions [the rupas of?] a particularly horrible vipaka that are experienced in a future life, the "thought of the parent" being "murdered" must play a role, otherwise the horrible cetana would not have an object that it builds around. So doesn't the thought of who is to murdered play a role, or are there special namas that create the impression that it is a parent being murdered, or another negative situation, which then corresponds to the intensity of the akusala cetana? > >Buddha talked about lifetimes of experiencing vipaka of being killed as the result of kamma patha of murder. So how would you translate that into paramatha terms? > .... > S: Vipaka is always the result of one's own kamma, never of another's. Death consciousness, cuti citta is the result of the past kamma which also resulted in the birth consciousness, patisandhi citta and all the bhavanga cittas (life continuum cittas) of that same life-time. Not sure if this is a misunderstanding, or if I don't fully get the meaning of the answer. I am thinking of these passages where the Buddha said that a person who had murdered a person or animal with extreme cruelty would experience the vipaka of themselves being murdered in a horrible way a number of lifetimes in a row. That is a very specific vipaka that corresponds to the extreme akusala cetana that they had in the former life to cruelly murder another being. So I guess that experience of being murdered would be some series of cittas experiencing a number of unpleasant rupas that represent their death-experience? Would that be in the right ball park? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #122326 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 11:49 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Regarding: > > KS: "Is the kusala with pa~n~naa which thinks. For example there can be thinking of the word 'dhamma.' With understanding or without understanding. It can be only the memory of the term 'dhamma' but at the same time, when one understands what 'dhamma' is, there can be longer story about dhamma. So [those] moments are moments of right thinking about dhammas, not about other things. But it's thinking, only thinking. Not 'me.'" > > S: " So I'd like to ask you whether this is clear now?" > > Scott: I think so. The reference is to 'moments' and 'longer story about dhamma' and thus seems to refer, not to an imperceptible moment of thinking which is gone too quickly to register, but to thinking, and the 'thoughts' this entails - thinking with pa~n~naa. I may be wrong [as usual] but I think it may be that all conceptual thinking, whether with panna or not, has to take place over a series of moments; so that 'right thinking about dhammas' still has to be construed over successive cittas, with the accompanying panna arising with each one. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #122327 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 1:03 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "... it may be that all conceptual thinking, whether with panna or not, has to take place over a series of moments; so that 'right thinking about dhammas' still has to be construed over successive cittas, with the accompanying panna arising with each one." Scott: There are realities the function of which is 'thinking.' Concepts are not realities. 'Conceptual thinking' is therefore problematic - at least very imprecise. There is always the next moment, replete with relevant dhammas, so 'successive' moments of consciousness is a given. I think it must be clarified that the dhammas which think are naturally arising and falling away - this is the natural order of things; they may *take as object* the same 'thoughts' (concepts and not realities and hence time-freed). If pa~n~naa accompanies these dhammas which think, and which take thoughts about the Dhamma as object, then these 'stories' will be kusala thinking with pa~n~naa. The same imprecision causes problems when thinking about kamma. Realities (naama) which are either kusala or akusala and which arise with cetanaa and in varying strengths are the functional elements. Ruupa conditioned by these cittas is not relevant. Metta has concept as object. The concept is irrelevant kammically - it is the dhamma that matters. Kusala thinking with pa~n~naa - pariyatti - will have concepts which are correct by virtue of arising with pa~n~naa. Scott. #122328 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 1:13 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Scott: There are realities the function of which is 'thinking.' Concepts are not realities. 'Conceptual thinking' is therefore problematic - at least very imprecise. There is always the next moment, replete with relevant dhammas, so 'successive' moments of consciousness is a given. I think it must be clarified that the dhammas which think are naturally arising and falling away - this is the natural order of things; they may *take as object* the same 'thoughts' (concepts and not realities and hence time-freed). If pa~n~naa accompanies these dhammas which think, and which take thoughts about the Dhamma as object, then these 'stories' will be kusala thinking with pa~n~naa. I am a little confused about how an individual dhamma whose function is thinking is able to take a concept as object, since a concept does not occur as a whole in a single moment. Is there a way of defining how the function of "thinking" in a single moment takes place, and what sort of object, or element of thinking is the object of its function? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #122329 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 1:22 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "I am a little confused about how an individual dhamma whose function is thinking is able to take a concept as object, since a concept does not occur as a whole in a single moment..." Scott: Do you have a textual reference for your contention that 'concept does not occur as a whole in a single moment?' Scott. #122330 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 2:13 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "I am a little confused about how an individual dhamma whose function is thinking is able to take a concept as object, since a concept does not occur as a whole in a single moment..." > > Scott: Do you have a textual reference for your contention that 'concept does not occur as a whole in a single moment?' Can you give me an example of a concept and how it is accessed in a single moment by the function of thought? I thought it was part of the definition of a concept, part of it being timeless, that it did not occur in a single moment. Otherwise, what exactly does timeless mean? How do concepts occur? If they are "thoughts," don't those occur over time? As for linguistic concepts, such as "every dhamma is anatta," those linguistic constructions take place over many, many moments, do they not? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #122331 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 2:39 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "Can you give me an example of a concept and how it is accessed in a single moment by the function of thought?" Scott: Citta and accompanying cetasikas *in the moment* take an object. When concept is the object, it is *momentary*. Find a quote that shows what you are contending, or, better yet, step back and acknowledge that you are making an assumption, which may or may not be correct, and then seek some corroborating evidence for what you assume. Too many discussions proceed from unfounded assumptions taken as fact. R: "I thought it was part of the definition of a concept, part of it being timeless, that it did not occur in a single moment. Otherwise, what exactly does timeless mean?... " Scott: Time-freed, Rob. Concepts are not realities. They have no actual existence. Scott. #122332 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 4:40 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, #122236 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > My point is that the arising of some rupas is independent of nama. ... S: Yes, all the rupas 'out there' conditioned by temperature alone, for a start. You might like to also read more on world cycles in Vism ch X111: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits069.htm ... >There appear to be some other causes for parts of samsara other than sentient delusion. .... S: Samsara concerns the realities arising in a split second, making up a moment of samsara, as conditioned directly or indirectly by delusion. .... >I find this puzzling. It also means that even if all human delusion were to cease, there would still be the four elements and temperature and such causing rupas to arise...? ... S: Why not? Again, see the chapter above. Like on planets where there is no sentient life. ... >Just seems like an odd sort of universe that doesn't have mountains, worlds, or bodies, but apparently has physical causation and rupas arising taking place all by itself forever. ... S: Temperature (rupa) conditioning rupas which may up what we convenionally refer to as mountains and worlds. As for 'bodies' - any living bodies (as we refer to them) have to have been conditioned by kamma, citta, nutriment and temperature. Metta Sarah ===== #122333 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:06 pm Subject: Re: On understanding & action sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > S: What about "meditation" now? > >==================================== > >A: Before one gets to a more appropriate place as outlined in detail in VsM, it is ok to develop understanding now. .... S: Let's be clear that there is only ever "now". So now, either there is "meditation", i.e the arising of pa~n~naa, or there isn't. If now, there is thinking about another better place, then there is no meditation now. Instead there is most likely attachment or aversion. ... >But let us be clear, it is helpful if one gets to a better place. ... S: With what kind of citta? While it may be true, as we all know, that when we're with other people, there is often lots of chatter, lots of stories, lots of lobha and dosa, talk about food, politics, the economy, the birds on the balcony and so on, rather than the Dhamma. When we're alone, there may be fewer distractions, more wise reflection on the Dhamma and that may be a condition for more understanding. However, what about the attachment to those times of being alone, not being disturbed, not having to associate with others? The attachment can be very strong indeed, such as when we think we just wish to be alone, just wish to be in the forest or the meditation centre in silence. So much attachment to oneself at such times. Whether we're with people or in quiet places, such as when we go to bed, it's right understanding which can know whether there is attachment at such times. This is the only way that meditation at the present moment can be developed. As I wrote and quoted before #18926, on living alone, 'eka' (alone without desire as companion): ....Sariputta replies: "Friend Moggallana, these things should be undertaken and practised not only by a forest-dwelling bhikkhu, but by a town-dwelling bhikkhu as well." in Wheel 188, Ideal Solitude: Idha Thera ya.m atiita.m pahiita.m what is past is abandoned ya.m anaagata.m pa.tinissata.m The future is relinquished Paccupannesa ca attabhaavapa.tilaabhesu chandaraago suppa.tiviniito And the desire and lust for the present modes of personality is well under control Eva.m kho Thera ekavihaaro vitthaarena paripu.n.no hoti It is thus, Elder, that (the ideal of) lone-dwelling becomes fulfilled, in all its details. ..... From Nanananda's comments: "We saw above how the Theranamo Sutta expounds the true ideal of solitude (ekaviharo) as against the popular and commonplace concept of solitude. The true ideal is depicted as a 'solitude' of mind, gained by giving up everything belonging to the past and the future and by disciplining well the desire and lust for one's present modes of personality. "The concluding verse makes it clear that the ideal lone-dweller is unsoiled as to all phenomena and is 'well released, renouncing all'. This reminds us of the term 'upadhiviveka' (detachment from all assets or substrata) denoting Nibbana, which is the highest mental solitude (citta viveka, citta vuupakaasa)......". ***** > >If citta with lobha arises now, can there not be "meditation" - >awareness and understanding of the lobha as a dhamma, not "my" lobha? > >================ > >A: Not during the moment when akusala (such as lobha) arises. It is common sense that one can contemplate better in a place where one is not distracted. ... S: The reality of lobha (or any other akusala dhamma) can only be known directly when it appears, when it arises. This is in the mind-door process immediately following that in which the akusala cittas arose. It is the nimitta of the lobha, a present object. It can never be known when it doesn't arise. It can only be the object of thinking at other times. Metta Sarah ===== #122334 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:15 pm Subject: Re: I am back sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > We uploaded some more of the discussions from last year in KK at the bottom of the audio discussions with K.Sujin. I think you'll enjoy these recordings when you listen. > > L: Wonderful. I am going to listen than. The last 3 months in Sweden, I listened a lot, I read a lot. So so helpful. ... S: Great to know. If you hear any short extracts, even just a phrase, that you'd like to share, please do. Phil and I both mentioned on our trip back to Bangkok that it would be wonderful if you could join us in K.K. next year. Perhaps you can get a job and start saving and others of us might try to help as well. Here's a quote from those KK recordings: KS: "....we study to understand more and more about reality now and the danger of conditioned dhammas. Otherwise oe likes to go somewhere and have some other experience rather than studying reality right now. Seeing is seeing, no matter where and when." >L: Also a lot things happen, I felt in love(of course one way :P) etc. I will bring this topic soon. ... S: I'm glad you've mentioned it. Just more conditioned dhammas. Lobha is so very common. As we can see, different kinds of cittas all day long - opportunities to show kindness and help each other with the Dhamma understanding too. None of these dhammas are Lukas. Glad to hear from you again! Metta Sarah ===== #122335 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:20 pm Subject: Re: "he should leave it by night or by day." sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S: Under `vivitta.m (`secluded') we read that forest dwelling is not >for everyone: > >============= > >A: But it is appropriate for some. And as your quote shows, not every place is appropriate for all. So it is not "any place will do for anyone". ... S: When we understand the deeper meaning of "living alone", living without attachment or delusion at this moment, we will be less fixated on concepts and ideas about a physical place and see that satipatthana is the understanding and awareness of realities now. SN35:63. "Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus resorts to forests and groves, to remote lodgings where there are few sounds and little noise, desolate, hidden from people, appropriate for seclusion, he is still called one dwelling with a partner. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has not abandoned it; therefore he is called one dwelling with a partner." Metta Sarah ===== #122336 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:23 pm Subject: Re: "endeavoring beings are clearly discerned" sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > S: As concepts only, just like Alex, Sarah and Buddha are concepts >only. In reality, just cittas, cetasikas and rupas. > >==== > >A: Cittas/cetasika/rupa is a certain valid way of analyzing puggala. > > This does not refute the existence of puggala that the Buddha taught. ... S: The Buddha taught that the "All" are just cittas, cetasikas and rupas (and nibbana). Anything else is a concept including puggala. Which doorway are 'puggala' experienced? Metta Sarah ==== #122337 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:32 pm Subject: Re: No-control and its implications sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > Somewhere I have posted quote from the commentary that says that ultimate teaching is NOT superior to conventional and that they both can lead to Arhatship. So much for denying conventional reality... .... S: The quote from the commentary indicates that some people hear/read the Teachings in terms of conceptual terms, such as puggala and Buddha without any mis-understanding. They appreciate that these are "mere conventional expressions" pointing to the Truths, to the ultimate dhammas. For others, they need to hear/read the Teachings in terms of those very paramattha dhammas, such as cittas, cetasikas and rupas, to avoid any confusion or any mistaking of the conventional expressions for the Truths themselves. When there is right understanding of realities, it doesn't matter what language is used. ... > > In fact I think that it would be more appropriate to consider conventional reality more important than ultimate because we live in conventional reality and have to abide by its rules. .... S: Let me rephrase this: "It is appropriate to use/consider conventional terms and expressions because these make up our ordinary language. When we use such terms, there can be an understanding that in actuality, there are only dhammas - only realities. These realities are namas and rupas. Anything else is a concept." ... > >If there is no thinking now about the forest, where is it? > > It still exists where it is independent of thoughts or our cognition of it. ... S: Just rupas arising and falling away, but 'irrelevant' as far as the path is concerned when they're not experienced. All that is experienced now are concepts, ideas about 'forest' and the 'best meditation spot". Just dreams now. Seeing now is the same as seeing anywhere else - just a conditioned, impermanent dhamma. Metta Sarah ====== #122338 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:36 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > gosh I got drunk today, not good to me, not good. I am so ignorant person. ... S: There is no ignorant person, no Lukas at all. Just kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya cittas as you quoted about before from the Dhammasanganii. Remember? Save the drinking one for you KK fund. I mentioned to Phil how one time when I was young and wished to join K.Sujin and Nina in Sri Lanka, I had no money at all. So I worked hard and I determined for a whole year not to buy a single item of clothing or go out for any evening entertainment to save the money for the trip. Metta Sarah ===== #122339 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:40 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 szmicio Dear Sarah, > Save the drinking one for you KK fund. L: Lol :P I cant drink, Luraya comes for a weekend tomorrow to visit me. Best wishes Lukas #122340 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:42 pm Subject: Re: to Lukas. Heedless in daily life sarahprocter... Dear Pt & all, Great to see you back!! Do hope you had a good trip to visit your family in Europe. I'm sure you're very busy on return. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > Sorry bit late in responding, this is the link to the velthuis-unicode converter I gave before: > http://www.granthamandira.com/diCrunch/diCrunch.php ... S: Thank you very much indeed. I did find the other link you had given me, but it didn't seem to work anymore. Now, I have to dash as I have a niece about to arrive, so will try it later. All, with my niece visiting for a few days, my mother and Jon arriving on Sat, I doubt I'll have a corner or any time to post for a few days, so apologies in advance for delays. Pt, we look forward to seeing you in due course. Metta Sarah ====== #122341 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:46 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: Lol :P I cant drink, Luraya comes for a weekend tomorrow to visit me. ... S: Glad to hear it. She sounds like a good influence indeed:-) You'll find life is much better without the drink. Perhaps you can help her to post a message when she visits. Metta Sarah ====== #122342 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:56 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 szmicio Dear Sarah, > S: Glad to hear it. She sounds like a good influence indeed:-) You'll find life is much better without the drink. Perhaps you can help her to post a message when she visits. L: Yes of course. She said that she cant wait to meditate together and having dhamma disscussions. Best wishes Lukas #122343 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 6:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhist View of Death (3) hantun1 Online Now Send IM Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind comments. with metta and respect, Han --- On Wed, 2/1/12, sarah wrote: S: I think this is the right attitude. There's no point in worrying or dwelling on what cannot be known or changed. K.Sujin also said something similar to a friend about just doing what is worthy while there are opportunities and not dwelling on the future. Pain as you described - according to kamma, we never know what painful bodily feeling will arise anytime. Of course, this doesn't mean we shouldn't take medicines as appropriate - medicines can be considered as food for the body too. Metta Sarah ==== #122344 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 8:51 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 rjkjp1 Dear All I find this interesting. Is someone who encourages you to follow a path such as intensive meditation techniques(such as goenka etc) really such a good influence? I always wonder: to me things like drinking alcohol are motivated by lobha but not by wrongview, whereas I have the techniques are done with both. Sarah, you suggested I think, that studying Patthana (ifn done with any lobha) was just as bad as going to a jungle and standing on one leg. But I still have some resistance to this. I think someone might study patthana with lobha- and thus not benefit- but it seems the man who thinks standing on one leg is the way to nibbana has a healthy dose of wrong view added. In short I really dont believe that someone with right view could think standing on one leg is something they will do, other than as exercise. But I still stubbonly think that the man with rightview might be seen perusing a copy of the Patthana- albeit often with some attachment thrown in. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > > L: Lol :P I cant drink, Luraya comes for a weekend tomorrow to visit me. > ... > S: Glad to hear it. She sounds like a good influence indeed:-) You'll find life is much better without the drink. Perhaps you can help her to post a message when she visits. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #122345 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 9:23 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sarahprocter... Dear Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > I find this interesting. > Is someone who encourages you to follow a path such as intensive meditation techniques(such as goenka etc) really such a good influence? .... S: My comment below was with regard to the comment about the discouragement of drinking - nothing about the meditation techniques. I'm sure Lukas will be encouraging more consideration of dhammas. > > > L: Lol :P I cant drink, Luraya comes for a weekend tomorrow to visit me. > > ... > > S: Glad to hear it. She sounds like a good influence indeed:-) You'll find life is much better without the drink. Perhaps you can help her to post a message when she visits. .... > I always wonder: to me things like drinking alcohol are motivated by lobha but not by wrongview, whereas I have the techniques are done with both. > Sarah, you suggested I think, that studying Patthana (ifn done with any lobha) was just as bad as going to a jungle and standing on one leg. But I still have some resistance to this. .... S: The discussion at the foundation was about lobha and ditthi. The point that some of us were making was that it is the cittas that count, not the situations. So lobha and ditthi may arise whilst studying the Patthana, standing on one leg or following meditation techniques or even now! Panna can only know such dhammas when they arise. This is why it was suggested by some of us that it's useless to keep arguing about situations - better to understand more about dhammas. This is the way that ditthi will be known and there will be less inclination then for silabbata paramasa. ... > I think someone might study patthana with lobha- and thus not benefit- but it seems the man who thinks standing on one leg is the way to nibbana has a healthy dose of wrong view added. ... S: Someone may also consider that memorising the Patthana in Pali is the way to nibbana or attending the shrine or the Foundation every week for that matter..... it all comes down to the present lobha and ditthi now. Talking about 'good' and 'bad' situations or situations with 'right view' or 'wrong view' just leads to pointless arguments as I see it - nothing to do with understanding present dhammas like seeing or visible object now. .... > In short I really dont believe that someone with right view could think standing on one leg is something they will do, other than as exercise. But I still stubbonly think that the man with rightview might be seen perusing a copy of the Patthana- albeit often with some attachment thrown in. ... S: What was it K.Sujin said to Jessica when she mentioned she'd better go and study the Patthana to understand more about conditions? Something like "useless, if there's no understanding" What is understanding or right view if not the understanding of namas and rupas now regardless of the activity? Metta Sarah ====== #122346 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 9:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 nilovg Dear Sarah, Yes, I also heard Kh Sujin say that in order to study the D.O. there should be right understanding of realities. I think: if a person does not know at all about naama and ruupa, if there is no basic understanding of dhammas as they appear one at a time through the six doors, he would not understand anything about the D.O. He may just repeat some words of the texts. Nina. Op 2-feb-2012, om 11:23 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > S: What was it K.Sujin said to Jessica when she mentioned she'd > better go and study the Patthana to understand more about > conditions? Something like "useless, if there's no understanding" #122347 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 4:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sakkayaditthi moellerdieter Hi Ken (and all), you wrote: KH: Didn't the Buddha say the entire universe was just the fleeting, presently arisen, conditioned dhammas (no me, you or we)? D: yes, the All of phenomena , this process which follow the Law of Dependent Origination no me ,no you ,no we can be found . KH:When that teaching has been heard and properly understood, will we feel a need to "try"? D: No need if we would have realized by that understanding a view which is accompanied by right thought , by right speech ..i.e. on the way of the Holy Noble Path . A need if are still attached to this All and there are quite stubborn fetters , kilesas ... Check yourself: if you are free of them , no need to try While it may be fascinating to focus on ( the change of ) phenomena ,one needs to keep the real essence of the Dhamma in mind , which is - as the Buddha proclaimed "All what I am teaching : this is suffering , the origination of suffering,the cessation of suffering, the path leading to the cessation. The Buddha taught for the suffering being and explained the All with the background to support disentchantment , dispassion and so detachment . So when you want to try the medicine the Buddha described ,you simply look for the guidelines of the path training, i.e. sila, samadhi, panna (numerous sources , will quote if you like) I do not know what Dukkha ,the condition for faith in the Buddha Dhamma, means for you ..(?) One needs to recall that understanding from time to time ..especially when we feel 'no need to try' (D: I suppose you misinterpret the meaning of 'properly understood' which involves deep penetration by insight. )-------- KH: I agree with your definition of `properly understood'(pativedha). As I said, when there is proper understanding of the conditioned world there is no concern for the future. There is no such thought as, "I must do something that will bring about right understanding in the future." Bring it about for whom? There is no self that will continue on, there are only dhammas. Dhammas have no concern for the future. They are disinterested. D: Unfortunately only valid for the Holy Ones. ----------------- > D: Insight does not come from accepting theory only, it comes when theory meets practise: the actual experience of what one has heard /read. ------------------ KH: Yes, it comes from both theoretical right understanding and from practice. In satipatthana the word 'practice' means direct right understanding of a conditioned dhamma. So it refers to patipatti-panna (another conditioned dhamma). It does not refer to any sort of conventional activity - such as sitting on a cushion or concentrating on the breath. D:the framework of the 4 foundations of mindfulness are to be contemplated, penetrated , so that memory can meet experience. The Maha Satipatthana Sutta ( Burmese translation ) starts with : "Bhikkhus, how does the bhikkhu keep his mind steadfastly on the body?Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu following the practice of my Teaching, having gone to the forest, or to the foot of a tree or to an empty, solitary place, sits down cross-legged, keeping his body erect, and sets up mindfulness, orienting it. Then with entire mindfulness he breathes in and with entire mindfulness he breathes out. " That is the authority , Ken .. your interpretation, I assume , mindfulness in daily life becomes effective only when the foundation is established by sufficient contemplation... more then tried only.. ----------------------- > D: For example trying to identify (sati) the moment (citta) in respect to its karmical consequences (vipaka due to wholesome/unwholesome kamma), which is the purpose of the 'Cetasika in daily life -project ' (by overviewing the 52 mindstates). ----------------------- KH: Trying to have direct right experience is not the practice. It is not the practice of actual direct right experience; it is the practice of *trying* to have direct right experience. Furthermore, that kind of practice can only be done with wrong view. It can only be done with belief in control over dhammas. D: Are you already able to recognize all 52 mind states? If not , then I suggest you particate in the project ------------------------------------- > D: Moreover there is a need to "try" the training of the Noble Path ( sila , samadhi , panna ) , which the Buddha even repeated before his passing away. -------------------------------------- KH: We must be very careful of wrong view. Wrong view is the view that denies and repudiates the Buddha's teaching. No matter how many times the true (profound, deep, concerned with anatta) Dhamma is explained, wrong view will always insist it is a just an ordinary, conventional, teaching. ------------------- > D: The trap one can fall into is when one believes to have understood the ultimate truth, that now the conventional one can be left beside.------------------- KH: Yes, the conventional truth is that the Buddha was a sentient being with great power and control. But the ultimate truth is profoundly different. In ultimate truth there was no Buddha, there were only conditioned dhammas. They were conditioned purely by other conditioned dhammas (just like now). There was no influence exerted over them by a sentient being, or by any other concept. D: Ken, as I tried to explain : the Buddha Dhamma is concerned with suffering and to make an end of it. All 84000 headings are related to this fact. Perhaps not your concern /priority , but then we do not have a base to discuss. --- KH: There are only dhammas. Apart from dhammas there are no worldlings, no Buddhas, and no other beings. --------------------------------------- > D: Alex quoted already useful sutta sources concerning conventional truth and 'doer' . I like to add an extract of MN 2 Interesting in particular the ditthi ' I have no Self ' 'I am not' , by which the delusioned mind just takes the converse of the proposition ' I am '. --------------------------------------- KH: Yes, you have quoted Thanissaro's heterodoxy to me before, and I have strongly rejected it every time. I think this time I shall let it pass. Just as a change in tactics. :-) D: thanks Ken, too generous .. KH: Translation *and total misconstruction* by Thanissaro Bhikkhu D: I am surprised that you have enough Pali knowledge in order to judge his translation . How about comparing with another translator , e.g. from Sister Upalavanna (see http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html ) Make your point or admit your bias . ;-) with Metta Dieter #122348 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 8:40 am Subject: Re: On understanding & action truth_aerator Dear Sarah, >S: Let's be clear that there is only ever "now". So now, either >there is "meditation", i.e the arising of pa~n~naa, or there isn't. >================================================= You are setting up a false dichotomy. Why not develop wisdom NOW and as one "does" it NOW, one also tries to set up better causes for future development of wisdom and meditation (go to meditation retreat, set aside quite time at home to meditate, etc). One does NOT reject the other. >However, what about the attachment to those times of being alone, >not being disturbed, not having to associate with others? >=============================================== It is far better to be attached to Jhana (rupavacara) than to be attached to kama (kamavacara). Attachment for us is inevitable most of the time, so it is better to be attached to less blameworthy things, and especially to kusala things. The path is gradual. It can occur that ADVANCED practicioner is not distracted inwardly by external worldly events. I am not there yet, and I believe that not everybody is that highly developed. > S: The reality of lobha (or any other akusala dhamma) can only be >known directly when it appears, when it arises. >================================ Can sati arise in the SAME citta as lobha? No. Sati takes memory of past defilement. In my case, I don't need to deliberately produce defilements to "know it". I have plenty of past defilements that I can observe, and observation happens better when I am not distracted by outward worldly things. Same with meditation. One goes into seclusion, suppresses the hindrances, and with clear and bright mind know directly PAST instances (of which we have plenty) of defilements and study like that. In my experience, trying to "study" defilements when one has not sufficiently suppressed the defilements is simply "talk" or "thinking". It is good to start with, to learn what to do and what to look out for, but it is NOT enough. Not for neyya individuals. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex #122349 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 8:44 am Subject: Re: "he should leave it by night or by day." truth_aerator Dear Sarah, >S: When we understand the deeper meaning of "living alone", living >without attachment or delusion at this moment, we will be less fixated >on concepts and ideas about a physical place and see that satipatthana >is the understanding and awareness of realities now. >SN35:63. >============================================== Of course it is possible to misuse even the best circumstances. Of course one can do wrong things in the forest. One can also slip and fall when one gets out of bed. Does this mean that one should never leave one's bed? No. One should just be careful, not careless. Same is here. With best wishes, Alex #122350 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 8:45 am Subject: Re: "endeavoring beings are clearly discerned" truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >Which doorway are 'puggala' experienced? Through 5 senses and the mind. With best wishes, Alex #122351 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 8:48 am Subject: Re: No-control and its implications truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S: The quote from the commentary indicates that some people hear/read >the Teachings in terms of conceptual terms, such as puggala and Buddha >without any mis-understanding. They appreciate that these are "mere >conventional expressions" pointing to the Truths, to the ultimate >dhammas. For others, they need to hear/read the Teachings in terms of >those very paramattha dhammas, such as cittas, cetasikas and rupas, to >avoid any confusion or any mistaking of the conventional expressions >for the Truths themselves. >When there is right understanding of realities, it doesn't matter what >language is used. >========================================================= Dhamma can be expressed using conventional or technical ("ultimate") language. These are two different but equally effective ways to teach it according to the commentaries. With best wishes, Alex #122352 From: "azita" Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 8:56 am Subject: Re: Thanks for a great trip gazita2002 Hallo Sarah, > Hi Azita, > > I hadn't realised you weren't coming to Thailand at this time, so was sorry not to see you on our visit and in KK. Azita: I was sad not to be there and I know that comes from strong attachment to those discussions in that lovely environment with wonderful dhamma friends. However, that is now jst a story about past khandhas....... thank you for the following texts. Some of it reads a bit like a horror story, but to an arahant life as puttujhana (sp?) is horror I guess! without the dosa. Patience, courage and good cheer azita > On birth, a couple of texts for you previously quoted here, the first by Matheesha and Nina and the second by Scott: > > 1. Overcoming Birth and Death, AN 10:76, transl by Nyanaponika > > "If three things were not found in the world, the Perfect One, the Holy one > who is fully enlightened, would not appear in the world, nor would his > teaching and discipline shed their light over the world. > > What are these three things? They are birth, old age and death. Because > these three are found in the world, the Prefect One, the Holy One who is > fully enlightened, has appear in the world, and his teaching and discipline > shed their light over the world. > > It is, however, impossible to overcome birth, old age and death without > overcoming another three things, namely: greed, hatred and delusion." > > > 2. Visuddhimagga, XVI, 37 (~Naa.namoli): > > "...When this being is born in the mother's womb, he is not born > inside a blue or red or white lotus, etc., but on the contrary, like a > worm in rotting fish, rotting dough, cess-pools, etc., he is born in > the belly in a position that is below the receptacle for undigested > food (stomach), above the receptacle for digested food (rectum), > between the belly-lining and the backbone, which is very cramped, > quite dark, pervaded by very fetid draughts redolent of various smells > or ordure, and exceptionally loathsome. And on being reborn there, > for ten months he undergoes excessive suffering, being cooked like a > pudding in a bag by heat produced in the mother's womb, and steamed > like a dumpling of dough, with no bending, stretching, and so on..." > > S: No wonder there was a look of "total shock" following "entry out of mother and into air"! > > Born to die - but opportunities to develop understanding with words of wisdom from "nani"! #122353 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 12:04 pm Subject: Great is Compassion! bhikkhu5 Friends: Feel Pity for all those Falling: It is a great pity for all those thinking like this: Pleasure is the only good; by that they fall! Terror is a necessary way; by that they fall! Sensuality is innocent; by that they fall! Violence is allowable; by that they fall! Money makes happiness; by that they fall! Power is progress; by that they fall! Falsehood is acceptable; by that they fall! Stealing gives wealth; by that they fall! Conceit can conceal; by that they fall! Science knows all; by that they fall! Killing can be good; by that they fall! Hunting is only fun; by that they fall! Adultery is mature; by that they fall! Paedophilia is harmless; by that they fall! Drugs are fantastic; by that they fall! Booze is medicine; by that they fall! Giving does not help; by that they fall! After death is nothing!; by that they fall! The Hells do not exist; by that they fall! Intentional Action has no effect; by that they fall! I am the better than...; by that they fall! I know better...; by that they fall! Making merit cannot elevate; by that they fall! It is a great pity with all those worthy yet poor beings: Who are veiled by wrong view; by that they fall! Who are fooled by own opinion; by that they fall! Who are gripped by greed and lust; by that they fall! Who are stirred by hate and anger; by that they fall! Who are clinging to all worldly things; by that they fall! Who are confused by not knowing; by that they fall! Who prostitute themselves; by that they fall! Who cheat and deceive; by that they fall! Who pretend what is not; by that they fall! Who hide what is actual fact; by that they fall! Who destroy beings or things; by that they fall! Who pollute the milieu and society; by that they fall! Who deliberately do evil willing it; by that they fall! Who fail their duties and obligations; by that they fall! Who miss the obvious opportunities; by that they fall! It is a great pity with all those blinded by ignorance, bound and dragged by desire, while pushed by aversion: By that they surely fall into states of pain, agony and despair! As if gripped by the arms of two strong men and hurled into a big fire... <...> Great is Compassion! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #122354 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 3:38 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "Can you give me an example of a concept and how it is accessed in a single moment by the function of thought?" > > Scott: Citta and accompanying cetasikas *in the moment* take an object. When concept is the object, it is *momentary*. Find a quote that shows what you are contending, or, better yet, step back and acknowledge that you are making an assumption, which may or may not be correct, and then seek some corroborating evidence for what you assume. Too many discussions proceed from unfounded assumptions taken as fact. > > R: "I thought it was part of the definition of a concept, part of it being timeless, that it did not occur in a single moment. Otherwise, what exactly does timeless mean?... " > > Scott: Time-freed, Rob. Concepts are not realities. They have no actual existence. I understand the idea that concepts have no actual existence, since they are only conceptual objects of thought, but that still does not make sense of the idea of them being "time-freed." Thoughts take place from moment to moment. To say that concepts do not exist in time is to give them a more exalted status, not a less existent status. I clearly don't understand what timeless or time-freed actually means in this context, and I'm not sure you do either. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #122355 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 11:33 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...To say that concepts do not exist in time is to give them a more exalted status, not a less existent status. I clearly don't understand what timeless or time-freed actually means in this context, and I'm not sure you do either." Scott: What, because I'm not spoon-feeding you, and you are not making any effort to learn about something you don't know about except to keep asking to be told, you suggest I don't know what kala vimutti means? Someone else will tell you, Rob, I'm sure. Scott. #122356 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 12:18 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti ptaus1 Hi RobE and Scott, > R: "...To say that concepts do not exist in time is to give them a more exalted status, not a less existent status. I clearly don't understand what timeless or time-freed actually means in this context, and I'm not sure you do either." > > Scott: What, because I'm not spoon-feeding you, and you are not making any effort to learn about something you don't know about except to keep asking to be told, you suggest I don't know what kala vimutti means? Someone else will tell you, Rob, I'm sure. pt: I'm not sure either, but I suspect "timeless" has to do with non/discernability of the (moments of) arising and falling? I.e. a concept cannot be discerned by panna to arise and fall, whereas a dhamma (like thinking) can. Hence also the centrality of dhammas when it comes to insight in theravadin tradition, I assume. Best wishes pt #122357 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 1:01 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 pt, pt: "I'm not sure either, but I suspect "timeless"..." Scott: The term is 'time-freed' - kaala-vimutti. pt: "... has to do with non/discernability of the (moments of) arising and falling? I.e. a concept cannot be discerned by panna to arise and fall, whereas a dhamma (like thinking) can..." Scott: It refers to the fact that concepts *do not* arise (nor do they fall away) - they are not realities. The moments of arising and falling away are not simply 'non-discernable' - they do not occur at all. Concepts do not arise, do not fall away - they do not exist. All of this fudging about concepts is merely an attempt to somehow figure out a way to include them such that one's favourite notions about the Dhamma can continue to be thought about. Scott. #122358 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 1:45 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti ptaus1 Hi Scott and RobE, > Scott: The term is 'time-freed' - kaala-vimutti. > > pt: "... has to do with non/discernability of the (moments of) arising and falling? I.e. a concept cannot be discerned by panna to arise and fall, whereas a dhamma (like thinking) can..." > > Scott: It refers to the fact that concepts *do not* arise (nor do they fall away) - they are not realities. The moments of arising and falling away are not simply 'non-discernable' - they do not occur at all. Concepts do not arise, do not fall away - they do not exist. pt: Yes, that's probably how it would be put in doctrinal terms. > Scott: All of this fudging about concepts is merely an attempt to somehow figure out a way to include them such that one's favourite notions about the Dhamma can continue to be thought about. pt: Yes, there's usually that, and there's hopefully also interest in the truth somewhere in there, i.e. akusala and kusala interchanging very quickly, etc. Anyway, RobE, I'm not sure, but on quick reading of your recent posts, perhaps what you're looking for can be found in a Comprehensive manual of abhidhamma - there's a chapter in there which deals with processes of cittas, i.e. how one and the same object (like a concept) is the object of all javana cittas in one mind-door process, and then how a certain complex concept like a "flower" gets "assembled" by many consecutive mind-door processes - the shape, the color, the name, etc. Though, I think for purposes of insight, mechanics of this "assembling" process are largely irrelevant - i.e. what liberates is insight into characteristics of dhammas, not into processes of concepts (in fact, I don't think there's such a thing as insight into concepts according to theravada). Either way, I'd recommend re-reading comprehensive manual of abhidhamma every year or so, it's sort of like a FAQ page for abhidhamma. Best wishes pt #122359 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 1:48 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 pt, pt: "Yes, that's probably how it would be put in doctrinal terms..." Scott: Meaning what? Are there any other terms in which you would put this? Scott. #122360 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 2:03 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti ptaus1 Hi RobE, > pt: ...(in fact, I don't think there's such a thing as insight into concepts according to theravada). I guess that should be "according to classical theravada", because there are nowadays some respected scholar monks, like Nyanananda, that equate dhammas and concepts as equally unreal/illusion, if I read them right. > pt: Either way, I'd recommend re-reading comprehensive manual of abhidhamma every year or so, it's sort of like a FAQ page for abhidhamma. pt: In retrospect, it happened many times now that I'd go to Sarah and Jon with a list of questions (usually thinking those are some really deep question that only an obscure commentary might have addressed) only for them to pull up the Comprehensive manual almost for every of them. And I'd go thinking "I just read the damn thing a few months back, how could I have forgotten?!" and embarrassment and all that of course. Anyway, the book really has a lot of info, you retain more/understand something better on every reading. Best wishes pt #122361 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 2:07 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti ptaus1 Hi Scott, > pt: "Yes, that's probably how it would be put in doctrinal terms..." > > Scott: Meaning what? Are there any other terms in which you would put this? pt: Probably not other than what I've written initially. Best wishes pt #122362 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 2:58 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 pt. pt: "Probably not other than what I've written initially." Scott: Why use 'non-discernible' versus non-existent? 'Non-discernible' leaves room for something, does it not? What is that something? Scott. #122363 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 3:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: No-control and its implications moellerdieter Hi Scott (and all) , you wrote: D: "...A wise man once said: "if you or I were to say right now that "there is no doer", that would be the ego/mind talking because we're still identified with the mind and it's thinkingness. Only the Enlightened who have permanently dissolved all mental activity can say that there is no doer, just as the ego can't say the ego is an illusion. That's simply the ego playing it's clever games to keep consciousness identified with it. " Scott: Who is this? I've looked at the website: http://www.thetruthsoflife.com/index2.html And find no author mentioned and a huge amount of new-age nonsense. Why are you quoting this and suggesting it is 'wise?' D: this new-age nonsense as you call it , has been shown as a bridge for many to understand why Buddhism / the Buddha Dhamma Vinaya, is a jewel among all religions and philosophies . I think the big majority of western followers needed such soft entrance to the deep and tough wisdom of the Dhamma. But above isn't the new age stuff clouded in mystic you probably had in mind . So I will only answer your question with a counter question : Isn't that very clear in context of topic? S: Me: "...Why are you quoting this and suggesting it is 'wise?'" Here is the link to the 'article:' http://www.thetruthsoflife.com/thereisnodoer.html D: My gosh ! Scott is taking up pursuit .. And a more full quotation: "However, if you or I were to say right now that 'there is no doer', that would be the ego/mind talking because we're still identified with the mind and it's thinkingness. Only the Enlightened who have permanently dissolved all mental activity can say that there is no doer, just as the ego can't say the ego is an illusion. That's simply the ego playing it's clever games to keep consciousness identified with it. The Enlightened have no use for words except to explain things to those who still think words are important. Words only serve a purpose until it's realized that they don't serve a purpose. They are useful for the sake of explaining to 'others' that they are useless. When they happen spontaneously by themselves, in the moment, for the sake of 'others', in the form of writing or speaking, they serve a purpose. Words are only symbols and representations that cannot fully describe anything. The word chocolate is not chocolate. The Truth is beyond all words, and it's meant to be experienced, not merely talked about. But you don't really 'experience' it because there is no 'this' experiencing 'that' when there is only One. You are that One." Scott: I like the last bit: '...there is only One. You are that One.' Gi'e us a break, laddie. D: I recently stumbled upon your foto ( when I looked for mine -see section up # 51-) and wonder whether this kindly smiling man is really the Scott, I imagine by his writings. So I am guilty to quote out of context , well , reason: because in respect to the topic just that passage was fitting and the full quotation would have distracted from the fact .. (as it has shown by you) S: Regarding: "However, if you or I were to say right now that 'there is no doer', that would be the ego/mind talking because we're still identified with the mind and it's thinkingness. Only the Enlightened who have permanently dissolved all mental activity can say that there is no doer, just as the ego can't say the ego is an illusion. That's simply the ego playing it's clever games to keep consciousness identified with it.... snip The Truth is beyond all words, and it's meant to be experienced, not merely talked about. But you don't really 'experience' it because there is no 'this' experiencing 'that' when there is only One. You are that One." Scott: I see that it is Bodhidharma that is quoted. What could the father of zen possibly say that is relevant here? D: the beauty of Zen is that one is requested to find out for oneself, Scott. (conventionally speaking, of course ;-) ) with Metta Dieter #122364 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 4:03 am Subject: Re: No-control and its implications scottduncan2 Dieter, D: "...I recently stumbled upon your foto ( when I looked for mine -see section up # 51-) and wonder whether this kindly smiling man is really the Scott, I imagine by his writings..." Scott: I'll pass on discussion if this is the best sort of 'argument' you can come up with, Dieter. You can ponder the answer to your own rhetorical question, and maybe learn a bit about concepts and the benefits of imagination as you do. If I had come up with this sort of 'argument' there would have been such a huge amount of whining and crying-to-mommy as to defy belief... Scott. #122365 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 10:17 am Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sakkayaditthi kenhowardau Hi Dieter, ------------ >>> KH: Didn't the Buddha say the entire universe was just the fleeting, presently arisen, conditioned dhammas (no me, you or we)? > D: yes, the All of phenomena , this process which follow the Law of Dependent Origination no me ,no you ,no we can be found . -------------- KH: I wonder if we are agreeing about the same thing. When Ven Thanissaro (for example) agrees no self can be found, he means that the true self (consciousness) cannot be found when it is in the conditioned world. He says consciousness must become "unbound" before it can be known as the true self (and then it won't need to be given a name at all). ------------------ >>> KH:When that teaching has been heard and properly understood, will we feel a need to "try"? >>> > D: No need if we would have realized by that understanding a view which is accompanied by right thought , by right speech ..i.e. on the way of the Holy Noble Path . A need if are still attached to this All and there are quite stubborn fetters , kilesas ... Check yourself: if you are free of them , no need to try ------------------ KH: I am not sure if we mean the same thing by "yourself" and "you" etc. When you say "If you are free of them," what exactly do you mean? ------------------------------- > D: While it may be fascinating to focus on ( the change of ) phenomena ,one needs to keep the real essence of the Dhamma in mind , which is - as the Buddha proclaimed "All what I am teaching : this is suffering , the origination of suffering,the cessation of suffering, the path leading to the cessation. The Buddha taught for the suffering being and explained the All with the background to support disentchantment , dispassion and so detachment . ------------------------------ KH: Did the Buddha teach the four ariyan truths as truths, or did he teach them as support for disenchantment? I ask that because Thanissaro says anatta was taught simply as a meditation strategy, not as a doctrine of no self. Are you saying the four ariyan truths were just a strategy? ----------------------------- > D: So when you want to try the medicine the Buddha described ,you simply look for the guidelines of the path training, i.e. sila, samadhi, panna (numerous sources , will quote if you like) -------------------------------- KH: We can both quote the texts. However, we have very different understandings of what we are quoting. Hence the need for discussion. --------------------------------------------- > D: I do not know what Dukkha ,the condition for faith in the Buddha Dhamma, means for you ..(?) One needs to recall that understanding from time to time ..especially when we feel 'no need to try' ---------------------------------------------- KH: I have never thought of dukkha as the condition for faith in the Dhamma. Would you care to explain what you mean? Also, I would like to point out that the understanding, "no need to try," does not mean "I" have no need to try. Nor does it mean "I" have a need to try. Nor does it mean "I" have both a need and no need to try. Nor does it mean "I" have neither a need nor no need to try. Those views are based on the presupposition of an existent "I". Therefore, they miss the point of the Dhamma. It would be better to say: "There are only dhammas, and all dhammas are anatta, therefore there is no need to try." --------------------------- <. . . > >> KH: There is no self that will continue on, there are only dhammas. Dhammas have no concern for the future. They are disinterested. >> > D: Unfortunately only valid for the Holy Ones. --------------------------- KH: Fortunately it is valid for everyone. ----------------- <. . .> >> KH: . . . it refers to patipatti-panna (another conditioned dhamma). It does not refer to any sort of conventional activity - such as sitting on a cushion or concentrating on the breath. >> > D:the framework of the 4 foundations of mindfulness are to be contemplated, penetrated , so that memory can meet experience. The Maha Satipatthana Sutta ( Burmese translation ) starts with : > "Bhikkhus, how does the bhikkhu keep his mind steadfastly on the body?Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu following the practice of my Teaching, having gone to the forest, or to the foot of a tree or to an empty, solitary place, sits down cross-legged, keeping his body erect, and sets up mindfulness, orienting it. Then with entire mindfulness he breathes in and with entire mindfulness he breathes out. " > That is the authority , Ken .. your interpretation, I assume , mindfulness in daily life becomes effective only when the foundation is established by sufficient contemplation... more then tried only.. ----------------------- KH: As I said before, we can both quote authority. The Mahasatipatthana Sutta has been quoted on DSG more than any other, but still some people here believe it to be an instruction manual (teaching things to do) whweras other people believe it to be a description of satipatthana (right understanding of the conditioned world). ---------------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: Trying to have direct right experience is not the practice. It is not the practice of actual direct right experience; it is the practice of *trying* to have direct right experience. Furthermore, that kind of practice can only be done with wrong view. It can only be done with belief in control over dhammas. >> > D: Are you already able to recognize all 52 mind states? If not , then I suggest you particate in the project ----------------------------------- KH: I will continue to participate in all DSG study projects, but hopefully not with desire and wrong understanding not with the idea of gaining something for my "permanent self." ----------------- > <. . .> > D: The trap one can fall into is when one believes to have understood the ultimate truth, that now the conventional one can be left beside. ------------------ KH: But you haven't explained what this conventional truth is. (Or maybe you have and I read it another way.) Ultimately, the terms "conventional" and "truth" contradict each other. For satipatthana purposes we can use conventional truths as tools or means of expression but for nothing more than that. ------------------------------ >> KH: Yes, the conventional truth is that the Buddha was a sentient being with great power and control. But the ultimate truth is profoundly different. In ultimate truth there was no Buddha, there were only conditioned dhammas. They were conditioned purely by other conditioned dhammas (just like now). There was no influence exerted over them by a sentient being, or by any other concept. >> > D: Ken, as I tried to explain : the Buddha Dhamma is concerned with suffering and to make an end of it. All 84000 headings are related to this fact. Perhaps not your concern /priority , but then we do not have a base to discuss. ------------------------------ KH: Are you saying 'if there were no permanent beings who were suffering there would be no need to put an end to suffering'? I have read where Ven Thanissaro argued there would be kamma and vipaka unless there werea permanent beinsg that both performed the kamma and experienced the result. Are you making that same argument? -------------------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: Yes, you have quoted Thanissaro's heterodoxy to me before, and I have strongly rejected it every time. I think this time I shall let it pass. Just as a change in tactics. :-) >> >D: thanks Ken, too generous .. ------------------------------------- KH: I will be happy to discuss Thanissaro's heterodoxy if you want to. ----------------------------------------------- >> KH: Translation *and total misconstruction* by Thanissaro Bhikkhu >> >D: I am surprised that you have enough Pali knowledge in order to judge his translation . ----------------------------------------------- KH: If you look again you will see that I was not judging his translation. I was judging the way he construes what he has translated. T B has decided that anatta was just a meditation strategy rather than a characteristic of ultimate reality. In support of this heterodoxy he has published every sutta that can possibly be construed in in that way. His translations are considered by Pali experts to be quite good (or so I am told). (Apart from a few clangers such as "stress" for "dukkha.") So I wasn't judging his translation; I was judging his evil scheme to replace the original Dhamma with a teaching of his own. -------------------------- > D: How about comparing with another translator , e.g. from Sister Upalavanna (see http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html ) Make your point or admit your bias . ;-) ------------------------- KH: I hope I have done that now. I must wonder, however, why you still misunderstand me. Haven't I made my criticisms of T B clear enough over the (many) years that I have been writhing about him on DSG? I have had these conversations directly with you many times. Why is there still this total misunderstanding? Ken H #122366 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 4:11 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Scott... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "...To say that concepts do not exist in time is to give them a more exalted status, not a less existent status. I clearly don't understand what timeless or time-freed actually means in this context, and I'm not sure you do either." > > Scott: What, because I'm not spoon-feeding you, and you are not making any effort to learn about something you don't know about except to keep asking to be told, you suggest I don't know what kala vimutti means? Someone else will tell you, Rob, I'm sure. You're in no position to spoon-feed anyone, because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. People do learn things by asking questions and discussing topics. That is my effort. If that's not to your taste - say bye bye! Robert = = = = = = = = = = #122367 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 4:13 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi RobE and Scott, > > > R: "...To say that concepts do not exist in time is to give them a more exalted status, not a less existent status. I clearly don't understand what timeless or time-freed actually means in this context, and I'm not sure you do either." > > > > Scott: What, because I'm not spoon-feeding you, and you are not making any effort to learn about something you don't know about except to keep asking to be told, you suggest I don't know what kala vimutti means? Someone else will tell you, Rob, I'm sure. > > > pt: I'm not sure either, but I suspect "timeless" has to do with non/discernability of the (moments of) arising and falling? I.e. a concept cannot be discerned by panna to arise and fall, whereas a dhamma (like thinking) can. Hence also the centrality of dhammas when it comes to insight in theravadin tradition, I assume. Nice to see you around, and thanks for the effort to think about this. What you are saying makes sense. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #122368 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 4:18 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > pt, > > pt: "I'm not sure either, but I suspect "timeless"..." > > Scott: The term is 'time-freed' - kaala-vimutti. > > pt: "... has to do with non/discernability of the (moments of) arising and falling? I.e. a concept cannot be discerned by panna to arise and fall, whereas a dhamma (like thinking) can..." > > Scott: It refers to the fact that concepts *do not* arise (nor do they fall away) - they are not realities. The moments of arising and falling away are not simply 'non-discernable' - they do not occur at all. Concepts do not arise, do not fall away - they do not exist. All of this fudging about concepts is merely an attempt to somehow figure out a way to include them such that one's favourite notions about the Dhamma can continue to be thought about. Your omniscient ability to misread others' intentions is mind-boggling, as is your continuing mission to blame people for things they haven't said. That is not the purpose in "fudging about concepts." The intention is to understand what you obviously don't - what is meant about something being an object of thought but neither arising nor falling away, though the thinking does arise and fall away. How is the concept created and entertained? Does it "exist" as such when the thought arises as part of the moment of thinking? Probably yes. I am trying to get clear on how concepts are entertained by citta, so I understand how that takes place. To say that it doesn't arise or fall away is easy. To say it doesn't exist is easy too. But to say how it is part of thinking even though it doesn't exist - that is not explained in a way that settles the issue, and that is what I am looking for. Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #122369 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 4:21 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > pt: ...Anyway, RobE, I'm not sure, but on quick reading of your recent posts, perhaps what you're looking for can be found in a Comprehensive manual of abhidhamma - there's a chapter in there which deals with processes of cittas, i.e. how one and the same object (like a concept) is the object of all javana cittas in one mind-door process, and then how a certain complex concept like a "flower" gets "assembled" by many consecutive mind-door processes - the shape, the color, the name, etc. > > Though, I think for purposes of insight, mechanics of this "assembling" process are largely irrelevant - i.e. what liberates is insight into characteristics of dhammas, not into processes of concepts (in fact, I don't think there's such a thing as insight into concepts according to theravada). Either way, I'd recommend re-reading comprehensive manual of abhidhamma every year or so, it's sort of like a FAQ page for abhidhamma. Thanks, both the description you offer - which is sort of what I've been driving at lately - and the reference are very useful. I'll look up a copy of the manual. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #122370 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 4:26 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobE, > > > pt: ...(in fact, I don't think there's such a thing as insight into concepts according to theravada). > > I guess that should be "according to classical theravada", because there are nowadays some respected scholar monks, like Nyanananda, that equate dhammas and concepts as equally unreal/illusion, if I read them right. > > > pt: Either way, I'd recommend re-reading comprehensive manual of abhidhamma every year or so, it's sort of like a FAQ page for abhidhamma. > > pt: In retrospect, it happened many times now that I'd go to Sarah and Jon with a list of questions (usually thinking those are some really deep question that only an obscure commentary might have addressed) only for them to pull up the Comprehensive manual almost for every of them. And I'd go thinking "I just read the damn thing a few months back, how could I have forgotten?!" and embarrassment and all that of course. Anyway, the book really has a lot of info, you retain more/understand something better on every reading. Good info and great story. I've read parts at different times, but I will start going through it a little more systematically. Sounds like a really good concise source. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #122371 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 9:06 am Subject: Floated by Joy :-)! bhikkhu5 Friends: Joy (Pîti) is a Link to Awakening! The Joy Link to Awakening (Pīti-sambojjhanga) has the characteristic of suffusing contentment, and the property of gladdening satisfaction. This Joy Link to Awakening manifests as mental elation, which can reach five successively increasing degrees of intensity: 1: Minor Joy, which can raise the hair on the body when thrilled. 2: Momentary Joy, which flashes like lightning at various occasions. 3: Showering Joy, which breaks over the body repeatedly like sea-waves. 4: Uplifting Joy, which can be strong enough to even levitate the body. 5: Pervading Joy, which is like a heavy sponge all saturated with water. Visuddhimagga IV 94-9 The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (āsava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Joy Link to Awakening based on seclusion, on disillusion, on ceasing, & culminating in relinquishment, then can neither any mental fermentation, nor any fever, nor discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one who has aroused enthusiastic energy, there arises a joy not of this world & the Joy Link to Awakening emerges there. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] Any one convinced by understanding of Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, gets an enthusiastic sense of the sublime good goal of Nibbāna & gains the gladness connected, joined, and fused with this Dhamma! In anyone gladdened, Joy is born. The body of the Joyous is calmed. One of calm body experiences pleasure and happiness! The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. The concentrated mind sees and knows things as they really are. This brings disgust and disillusion, which enables full, and direct experience of mental release. It is in this way that Joy indeed is a factor leading to Awakening! MN [i 37-8], AN [iii 21-3], DN [iii 21-3] <...> On the 7 links to Awakening (Sambojjhanga): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_7_Links_to_Awakening.htm Floated by Joy :-)! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita _/\_ * <...> #122372 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 6:52 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti ptaus1 Hi Scott, > Scott: Why use 'non-discernible' versus non-existent? 'Non-discernible' leaves room for something, does it not? What is that something? Scott's imagination? Best wishes pt #122373 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 6:59 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti ptaus1 Hi RobE, > RE: I'll look up a copy of the manual. Free online reading: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=ACrogsyJmoAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_\ ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false To buy: http://www.amazon.com/Comprehensive-Abhidhamma-Vipassana-Meditation-Teachings/dp\ /1928706029 Best wishes pt #122374 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 9:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sakkayaditthi nilovg Dear Ken H and Dieter, Op 4-feb-2012, om 0:17 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > KH: I have never thought of dukkha as the condition for faith in > the Dhamma. Would you care to explain what you mean? ------ N: Dieter refers to the Upanisa sutta [SN 12.23], translated by Ven. Bodhi as 'Transcendental Dependent Arising' (B.P.S. Kandy, 1980). First we have to understand the deepest meaning of dukkha: phenomena are impermanent and thus they are of no refuge. We have to understand what 'faith' is: confidence in the Triple Gem. Hearing the Dhamma is food for saddhaa, confidence. Understanding that conditioned phenomena are of no refuge one may seek a Path to liberation from dukkha. When there are conditions to hear true Dhamma one acquires confidence in the Dhamma and learns how to develop understanding leading to freedom from dukkha. ------- Nina. #122375 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 9:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concepts. was Pariyatti. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 4-feb-2012, om 6:18 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > To say that it doesn't arise or fall away is easy. To say it > doesn't exist is easy too. But to say how it is part of thinking > even though it doesn't exist - that is not explained in a way that > settles the issue, and that is what I am looking for. ------- N: Citta can think of anything, real or unreal. For instance: a pink elephant can be the object of citta, and this is an absurd concept. You can think of it now, while you read this. We should not say that this concept is part of thinking, rather: it is an object of thinking. Each citta has an object it cognizes. Citta is one thing, the object is another thing to express this in a general way. If you are used to think in the way of phenomenology, thus, of the object as being the content of thinking, it may be somewhat hard to swallow. Then it may help to learn more details of concepts in 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'. There are many kinds of concepts (p. 253, 254): 1. Vijjamna paattis, concepts which make known what is real, for example, the words rpa, nma, vedan (feeling), or sa (perception) 2.Avijjamna pa~n~nattis, concepts that make known what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta and cetasika that are nma, and rpa. Thai or foreigners are not real in the absolute sense; they are conventional realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala citta be Thai or foreign? Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality); it is a dhamma that has its own charac- teristic. It is not Thai or foreign. 3. Vijjamnena avijjamna pa~n~nattis, concepts of the non-existent based on what is real. There is the expression the person with the six abhis. The six abhi~n~ns are real, but person is not. Thus, this is concept of what is not real based on what is real. 4. Avijjamnena vijjamnapa~n~nattis concepts of the real based on the non-existent. There is the expression womans voice. The sound is real, but the woman is not real. 5. Vijjamnena vijjamna paattis, concepts of what is real based on what is real. There is the term cakkhu- via (eye-consciousness). Cakkhu (eye) is a reality, namely the cakkhuppasda-rpa (eyesense, a reality sensitive to colour or visible object), and via (consciousness) is also a reality, namely the reality that experiences. 6. Avijjamnena avijjamna paattis, concepts of what is not real based on what is not real. There is the expression the kings son. Both king and son are not real; they are sammutti dhammas, conventional realities. The pink elephant is what is unreal based on what is unreal. These examples may help you to understand more the details of concept and the fact that it is freed of time, it does not arise and fall away, it is simply an object citta thinks of. ------- Nina. #122376 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 9:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sakkayaditthi moellerdieter Dear Nina, well said .. ;-) with Metta Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sakkayaditthi Dear Ken H and Dieter, Op 4-feb-2012, om 0:17 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > KH: I have never thought of dukkha as the condition for faith in > the Dhamma. Would you care to explain what you mean? ------ N: Dieter refers to the Upanisa sutta [SN 12.23], translated by Ven. Bodhi as 'Transcendental Dependent Arising' (B.P.S. Kandy, 1980). First we have to understand the deepest meaning of dukkha: phenomena are impermanent and thus they are of no refuge. We have to understand what 'faith' is: confidence in the Triple Gem. Hearing the Dhamma is food for saddhaa, confidence. Understanding that conditioned phenomena are of no refuge one may seek a Path to liberation from dukkha. When there are conditions to hear true Dhamma one acquires confidence in the Dhamma and learns how to develop understanding leading to freedom from dukkha. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] #122377 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 9:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On understanding & action nilovg Dear Alex, Op 2-feb-2012, om 22:40 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Same with meditation. One goes into seclusion, suppresses the > hindrances, and with clear and bright mind know directly PAST > instances (of which we have plenty) of defilements and study like > that. > > In my experience, trying to "study" defilements when one has not > sufficiently suppressed the defilements is simply "talk" or > "thinking". It is good to start with, to learn what to do and what > to look out for, but it is NOT enough. Not for neyya individuals. -------- N: Thinking of past defilements does not help us to understand precisely the characteristic of a particular defilement when it appears. And this is very necessary, otherwise they cannot be realized as conditioned naamas, non-self. There will always be my lobha, my dosa, one thinks of the 'story' of a certain defilement and this is not helpful, not the same as direct understanding. First they have to be realized as impersonal elements, and this through insight developed in different stages, otherwise they can never be eradicated. Thus, if one first suppresses defilements and then thinks about them, it is thinking of a 'story' of them. Nina. #122378 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 1:33 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 pt, pt: " Scott's imagination?" Is the above merely a snotty comment, pt? Or are you suggesting that you did imply that in the conceptual gap between saying a concept does not exist (is not a reality) and saying that a concept is 'not discernible by pa~n~naa' there is room to imagine something more? And that you do? You might be suggesting that there are limits to what pa~n~naa can discern. If so, it is true that pa~n~naa does not take concepts as object. Apparently thinking with pa~n~naa does when it comes to thinking about dhammas and this is pariyatti. But the reason pa~n~naa does not take concepts as objects is because concepts are not realities. Pa~n~naa can apparently know concept from reality. But what is your view regarding concepts? Plenty of discussants imagine that there is more. You point to 'Scott's imagination' as if you don't imagine things as well. Everyone does. What is 'imagination?' It is concepts as objects of thinking. You yourself alluded to the tendency for theory to evolve such that so-called Theravadin theorists move towards Mahayana by suggesting that concepts and realities are equally 'unreal.' These theorists do so by fudging the meanings of things. Thanissaro fudges the meaning of anatta, for example. Alex is a full-on Puggalavadin. Much of this seems driven by sakkaaya di.t.thi and is in the service of making room for the idea that concepts can be moving forces in the process of enlightenment. Do you mean to suggest that concepts have a sort of reality, even though they are 'not discernible' by pa~n~naa? Scott. #122379 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 2:08 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...That is not the purpose in 'fudging about concepts.' The intention is to understand... what is meant about something being an object of thought but neither arising nor falling away, though the thinking does arise and fall away. How is the concept created and entertained? Does it 'exist' as such when the thought arises as part of the moment of thinking? Probably yes. I am trying to get clear on how concepts are entertained by citta, so I understand how that takes place. To say that it doesn't arise or fall away is easy. To say it doesn't exist is easy too. But to say how it is part of thinking even though it doesn't exist - that is not explained in a way that settles the issue, and that is what I am looking for." Scott: A concept is not *a part of thinking.* A concept is *an object of thinking*. Nina is correct: a reliance on a phenomenological bent impairs the ability to see this differentiation. A phenomenologist sees things as an amalgamation - a process - and this is the problem. A phenomenologist sees the forest, but can't see the trees. The obvious problem with the phenomenological approach is that experience is always 'my experience' that is central and hence the idea that 'I create my experience' is so easy to maintain. The phenomenologist is wide open to the 'imagination' pt was mentioning. A concept is not 'created.' Nibbaana is a reality, for example, and Nibbaana is also time-freed. Just because a concept and Nibbaana are both said to be time-freed does not mean that either of them are 'created' by the moment of consciousness taking either one as object. While Nibbaana is the Unconditioned Element and somehow stands ready to be the object of the Path, it is absurd to imagine that it is the Path that 'creates' Nibbaana in the moments of it's arising. It is equally absurd to think this of concept. Scott. #122380 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1 sakkayaditthi moellerdieter Hi KenH, you wrote: KH: I wonder if we are agreeing about the same thing. When Ven Thanissaro (for example) agrees no self can be found, he means that the true self (consciousness) cannot be found when it is in the conditioned world. He says consciousness must become "unbound" before it can be known as the true self (and then it won't need to be given a name at all). D: About 100 years ago we had a small but close Theravada community in Germany.. which broke apart due to the so-called Anatta Controversy. Reason: the proposition of a transcendental self , claiming that the Buddha only stated that no self can be found within the khandas (i.e. not excluding the' true self ' beyond) . I haven't read Ven. Thanissaro's comments in detail , but in general I consider the idea of a transcendental self to offer a backdoor for the self deluded mind. ------------------ >>> KH:When that teaching has been heard and properly understood, will we feel a need to "try"? > D: No need if we would have realized by that understanding a view which is accompanied by right thought , by right speech ..i.e. on the way of the Holy Noble Path . A need if are still attached to this All and there are quite stubborn fetters , kilesas ... Check yourself: if you are free of them , no need to try------------------ KH: I am not sure if we mean the same thing by "yourself" and "you" etc. When you say "If you are free of them," what exactly do you mean? D: you, yourself -our conventional address. The Self is made of attachment/identification (this I am, this is mine, this is myself.) , detached in a process of liberation from the 10 fetters (see Samyojana) ------------------------------- > D: While it may be fascinating to focus on ( the change of ) phenomena ,one needs to keep the real essence of the Dhamma in mind , which is - as the Buddha proclaimed "All what I am teaching : this is suffering , the origination of suffering,the cessation of suffering, the path leading to the cessation. The Buddha taught for the suffering being and explained the All with the background to support disentchantment , dispassion and so detachment . ------------------------------ KH: Did the Buddha teach the four ariyan truths as truths, or did he teach them as support for disenchantment? I ask that because Thanissaro says anatta was taught simply as a meditation strategy, not as a doctrine of no self. Are you saying the four ariyan truths were just a strategy? ----------------------------- D: He taught with the purpose of disentchantment , dispassion , detachment and so liberation. Strategy seems to me not really suitable , somehow indicating one of several) . I like the symbol of a raft , see extract from MN 22 : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel048.html "Suppose, monks, there is a man journeying on a road and he sees a vast expanse of water of which this shore is perilous and fearful, while the other shore is safe and free from danger. But there is no boat for crossing nor is there a bridge for going over from this side to the other. So the man thinks: 'This is a vast expanse of water; and this shore is perilous and fearful, but the other shore is safe and free from danger. There is, however, no boat here for crossing, nor a bridge for going over from this side to the other. Suppose I gather reeds, sticks, branches and foliage, and bind them into a raft.' Now that man collects reeds, sticks, branches and foliage, and binds them into a raft. Carried by that raft, laboring with hands and feet, he safely crosses over to the other shore. Having crossed and arrived at the other shore, he thinks: 'This raft, indeed, has been very helpful to me. Carried by it, laboring with hands and feet, I got safely across to the other shore. Should I not lift this raft on my head or put it on my shoulders, and go where I like?' "What do you think about it, O monks? Will this man by acting thus, do what should be done with a raft?" - "No, Lord" - "How then, monks, would he be doing what ought to be done with a raft? Here, monks, having got across and arrived at the other shore, the man thinks: 'This raft, indeed, has been very helpful to me. Carried by it, and laboring with hands and feet, I got safely across to the other shore. Should I not pull it up now to the dry land or let it float in the water, and then go as I please?' By acting thus, monks, would that man do what should be done with a raft. "In the same way, monks, have I shown to you the Teaching's similitude to a raft: as having the purpose of crossing over, not the purpose of being clung to. 14. "You, O monks, who understand the Teaching's similitude to a raft, you should let go even (good) teachings,[14] how much more false ones! unquote An interesting sutta to read and a detailed introduction by Ven. Nyanaponika , refering in particular to the self idea. > D: So when you want to try the medicine the Buddha described ,you simply look for the guidelines of the path training, i.e. sila, samadhi, panna (numerous sources , will quote if you like) -------------------------------- KH: We can both quote the texts. However, we have very different understandings of what we are quoting. Hence the need for discussion. --------------------------------------------- D: well, in the case of the sila- samadhi- panna training it is rather evident > D: I do not know what Dukkha ,the condition for faith in the Buddha Dhamma, means for you ..(?) One needs to recall that understanding from time to time ..especially when we feel 'no need to try' ---------------------------------------------- KH: I have never thought of dukkha as the condition for faith in the Dhamma. Would you care to explain what you mean? D: see Nina's well written answer to your question KH:Also, I would like to point out that the understanding, "no need to try," does not mean "I" have no need to try. Nor does it mean "I" have a need to try. Nor does it mean "I" have both a need and no need to try. Nor does it mean "I" have neither a need nor no need to try. Those views are based on the presupposition of an existent "I". Therefore, they miss the point of the Dhamma. It would be better to say: "There are only dhammas, and all dhammas are anatta, therefore there is no need to try." ---------------------------<. . . > >> KH: There is no self that will continue on, there are only dhammas. Dhammas have no concern for the future. They are disinterested.>> > D: Unfortunately only valid for the Holy Ones.--------------------------- KH: Fortunately it is valid for everyone. ----------------- D: old story Ken: there is conventional truth and ultimate truth ,as long as you haven't overcome the fetters the former is your All. (D> That is the authority , Ken .. your interpretation, I assume , mindfulness in daily life becomes effective only when the foundation is established by sufficient contemplation... more then tried only.. ----------------------- KH: As I said before, we can both quote authority. The Mahasatipatthana Sutta has been quoted on DSG more than any other, but still some people here believe it to be an instruction manual (teaching things to do) whweras other people believe it to be a description of satipatthana (right understanding of the conditioned world). ---------------------------------- D: even a description demands to be contemplated /internalized, doesn't it? <. . .> >> KH: Trying to have direct right experience is not the practice. It is not the practice of actual direct right experience; it is the practice of *trying* to have direct right experience. Furthermore, that kind of practice can only be done with wrong view. It can only be done with belief in control over dhammas. >> > D: Are you already able to recognize all 52 mind states? If not , then I suggest you particate in the project ----------------------------------- KH: I will continue to participate in all DSG study projects, but hopefully not with desire and wrong understanding - not with the idea of gaining something for my "permanent self." D: do it for the wisdom of right understanding / right view ----------------- > <. . .> > D: The trap one can fall into is when one believes to have understood the ultimate truth, that now the conventional one can be left beside. ------------------ KH: But you haven't explained what this conventional truth is. (Or maybe you have and I read it another way.) D: writing this Email for example .. KH:Ultimately, the terms "conventional" and "truth" contradict each other. For satipatthana purposes we can use conventional truths as tools - or means of expression - but for nothing more than that. ------------------------------ D: no contradiction ..each valid in its own domain >> KH: Yes, the conventional truth is that the Buddha was a sentient being with great power and control. But the ultimate truth is profoundly different. In ultimate truth there was no Buddha, there were only conditioned dhammas. They were conditioned purely by other conditioned dhammas (just like now). There was no influence exerted over them by a sentient being, or by any other concept. >> > D: Ken, as I tried to explain : the Buddha Dhamma is concerned with suffering and to make an end of it. All 84000 headings are related to this fact. Perhaps not your concern /priority , but then we do not have a base to discuss. ------------------------------ KH: Are you saying 'if there were no permanent beings who were suffering there would be no need to put an end to suffering'? D: forget about 'permenant' , that is an insunation. What I am saying is : no suffering, no need to end suffering KH.I have read where Ven Thanissaro argued there would be kamma and vipaka unless there werea permanent beinsg that both performed the kamma and experienced the result. Are you making that same argument? D: please quote , I do not understand -------------------------------------- <. . .> >> KH: Yes, you have quoted Thanissaro's heterodoxy to me before, and I have strongly rejected it every time. I think this time I shall let it pass. Just as a change in tactics. :-)>> >D: thanks Ken, too generous .. ------------------------------------- KH: I will be happy to discuss Thanissaro's heterodoxy if you want to. ----------------------------------------------- >> KH: Translation *and total misconstruction* by Thanissaro Bhikkhu >> >D: I am surprised that you have enough Pali knowledge in order to judge his translation . ----------------------------------------------- KH: If you look again you will see that I was not judging his translation. I was judging the way he construes what he has translated. T B has decided that anatta was just a meditation strategy - rather than a characteristic of ultimate reality. In support of this heterodoxy he has published every sutta that can possibly be construed in in that way. His translations are considered by Pali experts to be quite good (or so I am told). (Apart from a few clangers - such as "stress" for "dukkha.") So I wasn't judging his translation; I was judging his evil scheme - to replace the original Dhamma with a teaching of his own. D: one thing is his translation, another his interpretation . The publication of the former is serving the interested community a great deal. I cannot remember that I quoted to you the latter , which you claim by "Yes, you have quoted Thanissaro's heterodoxy to me before, and I have strongly rejected it every time" . Please show what you mean by that. -------------------------- > D: How about comparing with another translator , e.g. from Sister Upalavanna (see http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html ) Make your point or admit your bias . ;-) ------------------------- KH: I hope I have done that now. I must wonder, however, why you still misunderstand me. Haven't I made my criticisms of T B clear enough over the (many) years that I have been writhing about him on DSG? I have had these conversations directly with you many times. Why is there still this total misunderstanding? D: no , you haven't done that . What you maintain is that his translation of sutta texts involves heterodoxy , whereas the same time you state 'His translations are considered by Pali experts to be quite good (or so I am told)' . We are not talking about his interpretation which is another issue , but your allegation that he manipulated the text I quoted. with Metta Dieter. #122381 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 11:26 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Thanks pt! Best, Rob E. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobE, > > > RE: I'll look up a copy of the manual. > > Free online reading: > http://books.google.com.au/books?id=ACrogsyJmoAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_\ ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false > > > To buy: > http://www.amazon.com/Comprehensive-Abhidhamma-Vipassana-Meditation-Teachings/dp\ /1928706029 ================================ #122382 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 10:00 am Subject: Suitable Substitution! bhikkhu5 Friends: Good is Substitution of the 5 Hindrances with their opposites: 1: Desire (kma-chanda ) should be substituted with attention on disgust . 2: Anger (vypda ) should be substituted with universal friendliness. 3: Lethargy & laziness (thna-middha ) should be substituted with energy . 4: Restlessness & regret (uddhacca-kukkucca ) should be substituted with calm . 5: Skeptical doubt (vicikicch ) should be substituted with examination. Substitution of the hindrances works exactly as long, as one is Aware of it... Momentary suppression of the hindrances can be obtained during Meditation... Irreversible elimination by cut-off is achieved only, when attaining Nobility... <...> Suitable Substitution! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samhita _/\_ * <...> #122383 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 12:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On understanding & action truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, >N: Thinking of past defilements does not help us to understand >precisely the characteristic of a particular defilement when it >appears. >===================== But neither can there be sati and panna in the same citta with. As you Since they cannot simultaneously be present and there is only one citta at a time, this requires that sati with panna take PAST citta as object. It has to look to the past, otherwise it can never arise simulteneously with the defilement. With best wishes, Alex #122384 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 6:07 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti ptaus1 Hi Scott, > > pt: " Scott's imagination?" > > Sc: Is the above merely a snotty comment, pt? pt: Seemed factual to me - if I say A, and then you argue that I'm saying B, C or D, then it seems you're exercising your imagination. A snotty comment would've been smth like "Overanalizing things again, are we? Ts, ts, ts" given your profession etc. Of course, that wouldn't be of any use since I'm guessing the nature of your occupation requires you to prod people all the time, and when they say A, it's then your job to find out whether they really mean A, or whether in fact they mean B, C or D, all in the interest of preventing self-harm on their part. So I mean it's alright discussing the way you do, even though I prefer to discuss Dhamma on face value - when people say A they probably mean A, rather than prodding them for the other letters of the alphabet. But that doesn't mean I'm telling you to do the same. > Sc: Or are you suggesting that you did imply that in the conceptual gap between saying a concept does not exist (is not a reality) and saying that a concept is 'not discernible by pa~n~naa' there is room to imagine something more? And that you do? ... > Do you mean to suggest that concepts have a sort of reality, even though they are 'not discernible' by pa~n~naa? pt: Well, I meant pretty much what I had said initially. If you need me to restate - we discussed the issue of time/freed as related to the issue of arising and falling - as far as I'm aware, the texts only mention panna (of insight strength) discerning arising and falling of a dhamma (on that particular stage of insight). I'm not aware of an instance in the texts that mentions panna (of insight strength) discerning the arising and falling of a concept. I guess you are trying to look at the topic in a wider sense, as in: > Sc: You might be suggesting that there are limits to what pa~n~naa can discern. If so, it is true that pa~n~naa does not take concepts as object. Apparently thinking with pa~n~naa does when it comes to thinking about dhammas and this is pariyatti. But the reason pa~n~naa does not take concepts as objects is because concepts are not realities. Pa~n~naa can apparently know concept from reality. But what is your view regarding concepts? pt: I don't object to what you say above, though there are some things I don't fully understand. And I'm not faulting your statements here, but mean that these are some aspects of the Dhamma that I don't understand yet. For instance, the relationship between: 1. "it is true that pa~n~naa does not take concepts as object" 2. "thinking with pa~n~naa does [pt: take concepts as objects] when it comes to thinking about dhammas and this is pariyatti." 3. "Pa~n~naa can apparently know concept from reality" My understanding of the first issue is that it refers to panna of insight strength, which takes a dhamma as object, so concepts are beside the point so to speak, as they are not objects at moments of insight. The second issue would mean that concepts are objects, but these are not moments of vipassana, and there's certainly no concern with the issue of arising and falling of a concept, and further, concepts are objects only in so far as they serve to better understand the world of dhammas so to speak. The third issue I don't understand really. If panna can know concept from reality, is that said as a post-facto statement - e.g. when panna knows a dhamma, then by default that means it knows it is a reality (so not a concept by logic). Or can panna actually tell when object of citta is a concept and when object is a dhamma? And is that vipassana or no? But then this would go counter to the first issue, and might also imply that concepts are real in some way... Anyway, I'm not saying you don't understand what you are saying, I'm just saying these are things I don't quite understand in general, regardless whether you say it, or Nina, or Sarah, etc. Best wishes pt #122385 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 8:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On understanding & action nilovg Dear Alex, Op 5-feb-2012, om 2:57 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > N: Thinking of past defilements does not help us to understand > >precisely the characteristic of a particular defilement when it > >appears. > >===================== > > But neither can there be sati and panna in the same citta with. As > you Since they cannot simultaneously be present and there is only > one citta at a time, this requires that sati with panna take PAST > citta as object. ------- N: I understand your dilemma. When there is seeing now, its characteristic of just seeing, just experiencing what is visible can be understood without having to think about it. In fact, seeing has just fallen away when there is awareness of it. Cittas arise and fall away so fast, though it is just past it can be reckoned as the present moment. Now, the same is true for lobha that has just fallen away. It can be reckoned as a present moment when its characteristic appears. This is different from contemplating lobha that is past already for a while. I do not know whether I have clarified this sufficiently, but it is an important point. Nina. #122386 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 8:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: alcohol. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 2-feb-2012, om 7:56 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > S: Glad to hear it. She sounds like a good influence indeed:-) > You'll find life is much better without the drink. Perhaps you can > help her to post a message when she visits. ---------- N: There are many disadvantages and dangers with regard to alcohol. You have read about this in the suttas. Apart from becoming a slave, not free, there is also another danger. Alcohol destroys braincells and this may hinder you in the future, prevents clear thinking. You are young and still have to build up your career, make a living, take responsibilities with regard to others, and it is necessary to take all this into consideration. Getting drunk is like playing with fire. I hope you have a fruitful weekend with lots of Dhamma discussions with Luraya. Perhaps you can share with us. Nina. #122387 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 3:24 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 pt, pt: "...I'm guessing the nature of your occupation requires you to prod people all the time, and when they say A, it's then your job to find out whether they really mean A, or whether in fact they mean B, C or D, all in the interest of preventing self-harm on their part. So I mean it's alright discussing the way you do, even though I prefer to discuss Dhamma on face value - when people say A they probably mean A..." Scott: This is the problem with imagination, pt. See? You are a very imaginative guy as well! And this is what the Dhamma addresses. You've got this elaborate fantasy about a guy you don't even know. I don't care what your occupation is, but could imagine that your own idiosyncratic style either reflects or is reflected in it. And do I think about it when I interact with you? Not much. I imagine that you have your own reasons for wanting to play diplomat. Do I care? Not unless it bugs me. I don't mind, for example, that Jon discusses on slowly, asking for evidence behind claims being argued and that this must be how he works as a lawyer. Conceptually speaking, are we what we do or does what we do reflect who we are? And the Dhamma suggests that this is all absolutely and completely irrelevant. We all do this daydreaming, every day, about everything. This 'face value' in relation to terms and the meaning of terms is simply not adequate. I've said this to Rob E. many times, and say it now to you. If I could paraphrase what the Buddha's wisdom intuited I would say that it was that things are *not* what they seem. In Dhamma discussions I happen to want to know what is being said - not apparently but latently, if relevant. I don't happen to think that A necessarily means A. I happen to think this is a concrete approach. I figure that a Buddha would have seen it differently and that I don't, and so question what appears at the surface. pt: "...the texts only mention panna (of insight strength) discerning arising and falling of a dhamma (on that particular stage of insight). I'm not aware of an instance in the texts that mentions panna (of insight strength) discerning the arising and falling of a concept..." Scott: I recently posted a transcription of a discussion with A. Sujin in which she notes that pariyatti is 'kusala thinking with pa~n~naa.' See the first post in this thread. Do you agree that concepts *do not* arise and fall? pt: "...My understanding of the first issue is that it refers to panna of insight strength, which takes a dhamma as object, so concepts are beside the point so to speak, as they are not objects at moments of insight...." Scott: Do you agree that, because concepts are without characteristics, they don't come into the range of pa~n~naa - a dhamma which is aware of characteristics? pt: "...The second issue would mean that concepts are objects, but these are not moments of vipassana, and there's certainly no concern with the issue of arising and falling of a concept, and further, concepts are objects only in so far as they serve to better understand the world of dhammas so to speak. .." Scott: Of course concepts are objects. It would not be 'moments of vipassana' because concepts are not realities. Concepts are objects insofar as there is citta arising which takes concepts as object - at any moment. In moments when citta arises and thinks of me as a psychologist this doesn't 'serve to better understand the world of dhammas,' does it, and so must not be pariyatti - must not be accompanied by pa~n~naa. Pariyatti is being said to do with thinking with pa~n~naa about the Dhamma. With the presence of pa~n~naa, this thinking must be about dhammas and must, by the mere presence of pa~n~naa, be a better understanding. pt: "...and might also imply that concepts are real in some way..." Scott: In what way do you imagine that concepts are 'real in some way?' Scott. #122388 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On understanding & action moellerdieter Dear Nina (and Alex), just between..as you said an important point you wrote (to Alex): N: Thinking of past defilements does not help us to understand > >precisely the characteristic of a particular defilement when it > >appears. D: having the cetasika project in mind , I am not sure whether I understand you correctly. In order to discern the (52) states of mind , we need a knowledge by which we can identify a particular defilement /unwholesome cetasika. It is only by way of recalling past experiences that we recognize a pattern when a particular defilement (re-) appears . For example anger , a state of dosa cetasika ,' nama -rupa geared up ready to battle' . ( Typical is the fast in- and out breathing , so the wellknown advise to take a deep breath , calm down .. ). Until such knowledge isn't established the appearance of a particular defilements conditions its usual unwholesome action/habit . If we know by heart such cetasika will arise and cease without major impact... in that way we understand precisely , don't we? with Metta Dieter #122389 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 6:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On understanding & action scottduncan2 Dieter, D: "... For example anger , a state of dosa cetasika..." Scott: What do you mean by 'a state of dosa cetasika?' Are you referring to the dhamma, as in a mental factor (cetasiska) or a 'state,' which may be 'dhamma' or may be concept referring to 'an angry person?' If it is the latter, then you are not talking about mental factors, you are referring to stories about people who get angry. D: "...Until such knowledge isn't established the appearance of a particular defilements conditions its usual unwholesome action/habit. If we know by heart such cetasika will arise and cease without major impact... in that way we understand precisely , don't we? Scott: Here you seem to be referring to thinking about defilements only. You seem to be suggesting that it is the memorizing of Dhamma concepts alone that defines understanding. If so, this is incorrect. Scott. #122390 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 7:41 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > My point is that the arising of some rupas is independent of nama. > ... > S: Yes, all the rupas 'out there' conditioned by temperature alone, for a start. > > You might like to also read more on world cycles in Vism ch X111: > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits069.htm Thanks, I read some of this and will read some more. I appreciate seeing where the explanation is to some of these questions. > >There appear to be some other causes for parts of samsara other than sentient delusion. > .... > S: Samsara concerns the realities arising in a split second, making up a moment of samsara, as conditioned directly or indirectly by delusion. Does this imply that the rupas that exist independent of citta are not part of samsara? I guess there are aspects of the universe of arising rupas that is just a natural occurrence and has nothing to do with us? And that is not part of samsara? > >I find this puzzling. It also means that even if all human delusion were to cease, there would still be the four elements and temperature and such causing rupas to arise...? > ... > S: Why not? Again, see the chapter above. Like on planets where there is no sentient life. Okay, I'm getting the idea. > >Just seems like an odd sort of universe that doesn't have mountains, worlds, or bodies, but apparently has physical causation and rupas arising taking place all by itself forever. > ... > S: Temperature (rupa) conditioning rupas which may up what we conventionally refer to as mountains and worlds. As for 'bodies' - any living bodies (as we refer to them) have to have been conditioned by kamma, citta, nutriment and temperature. Thanks, that is all very helpful. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #122391 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 7:57 am Subject: Re: concepts. was Pariyatti. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: ... > The pink elephant is what is unreal based on what is unreal. > These examples may help you to understand more the details of concept > and the fact that it is freed of time, it does not arise and fall > away, it is simply an object citta thinks of. Thank you, Nina, that is helpful to review. I guess what I am wondering about is how a concept is actually entertained, given that an individual citta only arises for one moment and falls away. So if I am forming the sentence mentally: "Dhammas are all anatta," that cannot be constructed in one citta, I assume. It would have to be taken up by successive cittas with sanna and other cetasikas remembering and putting together each part to finally form the whole concept. Is that correct, or are whole concepts entertained in a single moment? Also if I am speaking and understanding conceptually what I am saying, during the time that I say "Dhammas are all anatta" out loud, or during the time that I type it out, I have many many rupas arising and many cittas have to arise to keep track and be aware of all of them to put together a single sensible sentence. So I am wondering how this takes place, and how the meaning of an act of speech is understood by citta. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #122392 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 8:12 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Scott: A concept is not *a part of thinking.* A concept is *an object of thinking*. Nina is correct: a reliance on a phenomenological bent impairs the ability to see this differentiation. A phenomenologist sees things as an amalgamation - a process - and this is the problem. Not correct. > A phenomenologist sees the forest, but can't see the trees. You've got it backwards, the phenomenologist sees the trees and does not acknowledge an overall forest. All phenomenology is "local" to the act of experience, meaning the moment of apprehending the object of perception or thought. The problem is with the idea of a concept, which phenomenology also has a view about. In phenomenology, the object of a concept is also regarded as unreal - just a thought-form, and there are interesting discussions about how concepts are "opaque," have no reality and cannot really be seen as a specific reality because of its non-existence. If I look into a concept all I get are further definitions because it's not a reality. If I look at an actual object of perception, for instance, a piece of wood with a certain texture, there are infinite further details that I can see on continued inspection. This is in phenomenological terms, obviously not in dhamma terms. So what a phenomenologist wants out of the Dhamma idea of a concept is a description of how it is experienced, not just a definition, which is conceptual in nature. That is why I'm asking how the experience of a concept actually takes place, what does timeless mean in the actual moment, how does citta entertain or create the concept at the moment that citta arises, etc. I'm looking for more details, not less. Phenomenology is basically an experiential description of how reality is created, not a general process at all. Husserl, the father of philosophical phenomenology, had as his battle cry "To the things themselves!" He was not interested in a second-hand idea of anything, but of actual observation of how it took place from the standpoint of individual perception, which in Dhamma terms would be from the standpoint of how it takes place for citta. > The obvious problem with the phenomenological approach is that experience is always 'my experience' that is central and hence the idea that 'I create my experience' is so easy to maintain. The phenomenologist is wide open to the 'imagination' pt was mentioning. You are wrong about this as well. Pure subjectivism such as you describe is not an attribute of phenomenology. It is true that nothing can be directly experienced except from the standpoint of individual perception. That is also true for the Dhamma. No one experiences anything except for oneself. Insight can't be given by word of mouth, it has to arise for citta directly. It is the same in phenomenology, but there's no imagination involved. It is descriptive of how this takes place. Just making something up that isn't actually experienced would not be accepted. It's not speculative. It might be helpful if you don't form analogies and accusations about things that you are obviously not familiar with, nor attribute motives to people -- as you seem to habitually do -- based on your flip assessment of what's "going on in their minds." It's a useless waste of time. > A concept is not 'created.' Nibbaana is a reality, for example, and Nibbaana is also time-freed. Just because a concept and Nibbaana are both said to be time-freed does not mean that either of them are 'created' by the moment of consciousness taking either one as object. > While Nibbaana is the Unconditioned Element and somehow stands ready to be the object of the Path, it is absurd to imagine that it is the Path that 'creates' Nibbaana in the moments of it's arising. It is equally absurd to think this of concept. I'm not saying that citta creates concepts, I'm asking about it. Are you saying that concepts are just floating around independently and that citta "discovers" them in the ethers even though they don't exist? If they are timeless and not created by citta, how do they come to exist and in what way do they exist? If they don't arise, how do they become objects of thought? Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #122393 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 9:32 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "You've got it backwards, the phenomenologist sees the trees and does not acknowledge an overall forest..." Scott: Why do you focus on 'process' then? R: "...If they are timeless and not created by citta, how do they come to exist and in what way do they exist? If they don't arise, how do they become objects of thought?" Scott: Time-freed, Rob, not 'timeless.' You think, don't you? What is going on then? Scott. #122394 From: "philip" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 10:33 am Subject: Re: On understanding & action philofillet Hi Scott and Dieter > > D: "... For example anger , a state of dosa cetasika..." > > Scott: What do you mean by 'a state of dosa cetasika?' Are you referring to the dhamma, as in a mental factor (cetasiska) or a 'state,' which may be 'dhamma' or may be concept referring to 'an angry person?' If it is the latter, then you are not talking about mental factors, you are referring to stories about people who get angry. ph : Thanks for this Scott. It may or may not be worthwhile to establish that Dieter doesn't accept the ephemeral cetasika as taught in Abhidhamma, after all he once said it is not wise for us to study Abhidhamma details. Lobha wants understanding of mind states in daily life, meditation etc. This is seen by tge deluded meditator as sonethibg more ephemeral and immediate than stories about angry people etc, but it is still just thinking about ephemeral "dhammas." Of course Dieter is not alone there. I wonder if it is worth establishing that he doesn't accept cetasika as taught in Abhidhamma? Ir just study his pists as evidence of how deep Dhamma (d.o for example is corrupted by moha and lobha? Again, that is true for all of us unless there is patience, somehow, extremely rare. A hit and run post by Phil, there will be more, I imagine. Phil p.s I wonder if Dieter has seen my smiley face picture. What lies, those smiles, what lies!!!!!!! Cunning Canaduans, fooling Europeans so easily! Hhahahaaa!!! > > D: "...Until such knowledge isn't established the appearance of a particular defilements conditions its usual unwholesome action/habit. If we know by heart such cetasika will arise and cease without major impact... in that way we understand precisely , don't we? > > Scott: Here you seem to be referring to thinking about defilements only. You seem to be suggesting that it is the memorizing of Dhamma concepts alone that defines understanding. If so, this is incorrect. > > Scott. > #122395 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 10:48 am Subject: Re: On understanding & action truth_aerator Hi Phil, >ph :...Lobha wants understanding of mind states in daily life, >meditation etc. >========================================== Why? Lobha is greed toward sense objects. One cannot have greed toward Nibbana. It is not a sensual object. With best wishes, Alex #122396 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 10:56 am Subject: Re: On understanding & action scottduncan2 Phil, Ph: "...It may or may not be worthwhile to establish that Dieter doesn't accept the ephemeral cetasika as taught in Abhidhamma..." Scott: Yeah, this is how I see it. And this is what I'm pointing out, however obliquely. As I see it, Dieter has the 'standard' modern view, at the totally conceptual, non-Abhidhamma level, of suttanta division Dependent Origination as the 'model' and the only way to consider things. He does not accept that dhammas are momentary. He does not know what a mental factor actually is yet. p.s I wonder if Dieter has seen my smiley face picture. What lies, those smiles, what lies!!!!!!! Cunning Canadians, fooling Europeans so easily! Hhahahaaa!!! Scott: Yeah, I had forgotten that my image was sitting in the photos section, and promptly removed it when I found out that photos are being used for nefarious purposes. Don't want my soul stolen, after all, ha ha. Scott. #122397 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 11:16 am Subject: Re: On understanding & action scottduncan2 Alex, A: " Why? Lobha is greed toward sense objects. One cannot have greed toward Nibbana. It is not a sensual object." Scott: Phil is gone again, Alex. You want Nibbaana. You are making efforts to 'see' Nibbaana. You say so. How is this not greed? Rhetorical question (don't answer). Scott. #122398 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 11:50 am Subject: Re: On understanding & action truth_aerator Scott, >Alex, > >A: " Why? Lobha is greed toward sense objects. One cannot have greed >toward Nibbana. It is not a sensual object." > >Scott: Phil is gone again, Alex. You want Nibbaana. You are making >efforts to 'see' Nibbaana. You say so. How is this not greed? >Rhetorical question (don't answer) >============================================== "Wanting" (if such word is even appropriate) Nibbana is NOT the same as wanting (with craving) $10 million dollars. Furthermore the result is different. Alex #122399 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 12:46 pm Subject: Re: On understanding & action scottduncan2 Alex, A: "'Wanting' (if such word is even appropriate) Nibbana is NOT the same as wanting (with craving) $10 million dollars. Furthermore the result is different." Scott: Nonsense. It is when you or I want (or whatever other word you think is better) it. Dhammasa"nga.ni: "[1059] What is greed? That which is lust (rago), passion (saraago), seducing (anunayo), compliance (anurodho), delighting in (nandi), taking lustful delight in (nandi-raago), heart's passion (citassa saraago), wanting (icchaa), languishing (mucchaa), gulping at, devouring (ajjhosaana.m), cupidity (gedho), voracity (palighedo), cleaving to (sa.ngo), a slough (panko), longing (ejaa), illusion (maayaa), genetrix (janikaa), progenetrix (sa~njananii), seamstress (sibbanii), she who ensnares (jaalinii), the flowing stream (saritaa), she who is diffused (vsiattikaa), the thread (suttam), diffusion (vi.sataa), she who urges (aayuuhanii), the consort (duiyaa), aiming at (pain.dhi), she who leads to rebirth (bhavanettii), the forest (van a.m), the jungle (vantho), intimacy (santhavo), fondness (sineho), affection (pa.tibandhu), appetite for (aasaa), hoping for (aasi.manaa), anticipation (aasi.msitatta.m), appetite for visual shapes (ruupaasaa, etc.), for sounds, for odours, for tastes, for the tangible, for getting, for wealth, for children, for life, mumbling (jappaa), mumbling on, and over, muttering, murmuring, self-indulgence (loluppa.m), self-indulging, intemperateness, agitation (pu~nikataa), longing for the agreeable (saadukamyataa), incestuous passion (adhammaraago), lawless greed (visamaalobho), wish (nikanti), hungering for (nikaamanaa), entreating (patthanaa), envying (pihanaa), imploring (sampatthanaa), craving for sensual indulgence (kaamata.nhaa), for existence (bhavtanhaa), for [material] form, for immateriality, for annihilation, for visible shapes, for sounds, for smells, for tastes, for the tangible, for mental states (dhammata.nhaa), a flood (ogho), a yoke (yogi), a tie (gantho), grasping (upaadaana.m), obstruction (aavara.na.m), hindrance (niivara.na.m), covering (chadana.m), bondage (bandana.m), depravity (upkkilesso), latent bias (anusayo), obsession (pariyu.t.thaana.m), a creeper (lataa), avarice (veviccha.m), root of ill, source of ill (dukkhanidaana.m), production of ill (dukkhappabhavo), Maara's trap (maarapaaso), Maara's domain (maaravisayo), craving, the flux of craving for (sadata.nha), the fishing net of (jaala.mta.nhaa), the leash of (gaddulata.nhaa), the ocean (samuddo), covetousness (abhijjhaa), greed as the root of evil - this is what is called greed." Scott: Fill in the blank, Alex: "I [ ] Nibbaana." Scott.