#123000 From: "colette_aube" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 12:59 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low colette_aube Scott, It's utterly impossible for psycho"therapy" to work IF it does not dictate a coarse of action(s) and/or behavior(s). Actions and Behaviors are the entirety of the Dharma. The only thing that psychotherapists do is to tell a robot how to jump or how high to jump. Scott: "I love to read fantasy and sci-fi, but I don't believe in magic. " colette: then it is safe to say that you are firmly in the camp of LINEAR THOUGHT PROCESS, that thinking can only be VALID and possess VALID THOUGHTS, as long as they are completely LINEAR and totally REPLICATABLE (see "scientific method") <...> You, Scott, are suggesting that a world exist that relies upon LINEAR THOUGHT as the preferred methodology for a PATH of a micro-processor to take. I contend that you are trying to implement a robotic existence that humans will not accept. No offense toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > colette, > > I was dumb when I read what Rob had written. I know what he meant. He said that psychotherapy can't offer more than Dhamma. So he wrote in praise of Dhamma. <....> #123001 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 1:12 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low scottduncan2 colette, c: "It's utterly impossible for psycho"therapy" to work IF it does not dictate a coarse of action(s) and/or behavior(s). Actions and Behaviors are the entirety of the Dharma. The only thing that psychotherapists do is to tell a robot how to jump or how high to jump." Scott: If a 'psychotherapist' is 'dictating courses of action' then this person is only a counsellor. colette: "then it is safe to say that you are firmly in the camp of LINEAR THOUGHT PROCESS, that thinking can only be VALID and possess VALID THOUGHTS, as long as they are completely LINEAR and totally REPLICATABLE (see 'scientific method')" Scott: Hardly. I do not believe in OBJECTIVITY. c: "You, Scott, are suggesting that a world exist that relies upon LINEAR THOUGHT as the preferred methodology for a PATH of a micro-processor to take. I contend that you are trying to implement a robotic existence that humans will not accept." Scott: I don't believe in the computer analogy. I contend that no matter what one *wants* to 'implement,' things will unfold only as they will. One might believe in LINEAR THOUGHT (or in NONLINEAR THOUGHT for that matter) and neither belief will have any effect on what IS. c: "No offense" Scott: None taken of course. It's discussion. Those who take offense in discussions are squeaky wheels in search of grease. Scott. #123002 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 3:25 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "The point is that you can expect everyone to desire relief from pain, that is the nature of the worldling. I guess the question is how you deal with that. I think the Buddha's answer to seeing beings in pain is both metta and Dhamma." > > Scott: A truism, then, followed by rhetoric. Hardly any room for discussion here. I think Jesus' answer to seeing beings in pain is both love and Gospel. See what I mean? Rhetoric. How does this relate to 'how you deal with that?' > > This 'dealing with' implies instrumental, technical, 'how-to' sorts of ideas, flying in the face of the way things actually work. I am stating that helpful-appearing statements written for all to see hardly represent 'dealing with' anything, save for the construction of really boodisty on-line personas of which anyone can be proud. Also, offering rhetorical statements hardly constitutes discussion. I'm not really sure what you're talking about, Scott. Labeling things as rhetoric or technique or whatever doesn't seem especially useful to me. I responded to the message with what I thought, and that in itself constitutes some form of discussion, whether within your restrictive definition of how it is constituted or not. Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #123003 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 3:30 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi again Rob E > > > > --to reassure the imaginary being that citta imagines, when metta happens to arise due to conditions. :-) > > Ok, I see what you mean now, never mind. I think you were not joking despite the smiley face. Maybe it was a Dhamma Makes Me Happy smiley face ratger than I am joking smikey face, which I guess would be Winky. Nothing personal about this, others also like smiley man and winky man. No problem. I don't remember the smiley in fact, but I'm sure it was a gesture of something - maybe smiling a bit at my own language or who knows what. Smiley man and winky man sound like two new members of the 7 dwarves, or perhaps archeological nicknames for a couple of missing links in the development of homo sapiens. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #123004 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 3:37 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Rob E, Sarah all > > > > S: Yes, exactly. Whilst we think in terms of "circumstances" and "events" rather than understanding dhammas, there will always be proliferations and disturbances on account of the experiences through the senses. > > > > Very interesting. You could see how experiencing the unpleasant rupas as vipaka would potentially give a certain degree of freedom from making the story even more complicated and created more disturbances. > > > > > But we don't experience the dhammas as vipaka, do we? We think about situations in terms of vipaka, and surely it is almost alwayswith lobha in pursuit of pleasant mental feeling, Dhamma as comforter. The Buddha said that worldlings know no way away from pain except through seeking pleasure. I think we shpuld be honest with ourselves about how much of that goes on re Dhamma. No need to worry about it but we can remember how very very rare monents of kusala are. Since pariyatti is partially composed of correct concepts about various aspects of Dhamma, I consider it a worthwhile development in thinking when one is able to look at things in the correct framework, even if it is still just a way of thinking about it. In that sense, there's no confusion that we can suddenly experience it that way, but it's still an advance in understanding. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #123005 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 3:39 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Phil, > > P: "But we don't experience the dhammas as vipaka, do we? We think about situations in terms of vipaka..." > > Scott: Correct. This is a good example of discussion which gets to the heart of a matter. You honed in on the precise wording, penetrated the ambiguity, and pointed out the rather large problem lying underneath. This being the problem with the 'experiential' school of thought. As you say, we don't 'experience dhammas as vipaka' - this is thought about. Talk about 'experience' is talk about thinking. Overly general and unjustified conclusion. Thinking about experience is not the same as talking about thinking. Rob E. - - - - - - - #123006 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 4:24 pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 jonoabb Hi Alex (122796) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Jon, all, > ... > A: How is "path that is to be cultivated or developed" is not intentional cultivation? > =============== J: We have been discussing the question of whether, according to the texts, the NEP is a path that is to be *followed*. In the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56:11), the Buddha describes how there arose in him vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge and light in regard to the following 4 things unheard before: "This is the noble truth of suffering... "This noble truth of suffering is to be *fully understood*... "This is the noble truth of the origin of suffering... "This noble truth of the origin of suffering is to be *abandoned*... "This is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering... "This noble truth of the cessation of suffering is to be *realized*... "This is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering... "This noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering is to be *developed*... " So the NEP is a path that is to be developed. That clearly supports the commentarial interpretation of the path factors being co-arising mental factors. > =============== > >J:The reason for this is that (a) the 8 *factors* of the path (Pali: >magganga) are mental factors that co-arise at path moments, > >============================================== > > A: Where is this said by the Buddha in the suttas? > =============== J: We have discussed this point a number of times before, so I will just summarise my previous comments briefly: The suttas do not expressly say that the 8 factors are mental factors that co-arise at path moments; but neither do they say that they are 'actions to be undertaken'. It's a matter of context and commentarial elaboration. > =============== > A: Even assuming that these are "path moments" how can the occur? What needs to intentionally be cultivated/developed for these path moments to occur? > =============== J: The conditions for the arising of path moments are set out in SN 55 where they are referred to at the 'factors for stream-entry' (SN56:50) or 'things that lead to the obtaining of wisdom' (SN 56:59). They are (BB translation): Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. None of these 4 factors are a matter of 'intentional cultivation'. > =============== > >J:If the path factors were 'descriptions of actions to be >undertaken', it would mean that persons who had never heard the >Dhamma could develop the path. > >=================================================== > > A: Person who has never heard the Dhamma would not know what to do and how to properly view things to become an Arahant. > =============== J: See the standard description of the path factors below. If the path factors are taken to be 'descriptions of actions to be undertaken', then all factors except the first could be 'undertaken' by a person who had never heard the teachings. Jon (Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary, entry for 'Magga') 1. "What now, o monks, is right view (or right understanding)? It is the understanding of suffering, of the origin of suffering, of the extinction of suffering, and of the path leading to the extinction of suffering. 2. "What now, o monks, is right thought? It is a mind free from sensual lust, ill-will and cruelty. 3. "What now, o monks, is right speech? Abstaining from lying, tale-bearing, harsh words, and foolish babble. 4. "What now, o monks, is right action? Abstaining from injuring living beings, from stealing and from unlawful sexual intercourse. 5. "What now, o monks, is right livelihood? If the noble disciple rejects a wrong living, and gains his living by means of right livelihood. 6. "What now, o monks, is right effort? If the disciple rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, demeritorious things that have not yet arisen; ... if he rouses his will to overcome the evil, demeritorious things that have already arisen; ... if he rouses his will to produce meritorious things that have not yet arisen; ... if he rouses his will to maintain the meritorious things that have already arisen and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development; he thus makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives. 7. "What now, o monks is right mindfulness? If the disciple dwells in contemplation of corporeality ... of feeling ... of mind ... of the mind-objects, ardent, clearly conscious, and mindful after putting away worldly greed and grief. 8. "What now, o monks, is right concentration? If the disciple is detached from sensual objects, detached from unwholesome things, and enters into the first absorption ... the second absorption ... the third absorption ... the fourth absorption". (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/magga.htm) #123007 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 5:09 pm Subject: Re: Ignorance and forgetfulness. An extract from Dhamma talks. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: I dont know if I remember correctly, but the theravada is based or called sometimes vibhajana. And I think the point of this is the developement by reading and listening as a main stream of developement. Also Buddha himself make a lot of different classification of realities so that we can understand more and more. That's why I told this all are different vibhangas. Sometimes something can mean this and also can mean something different, and this is all to develop more and more panna. .... S: Thanks, well explained. I just wished to clarify this was what you meant. ... >In Vibhanga this classification are clearly taught. There is classification by Suttas, by Abhidhamma and by inquiries. When we read first chapter on analysis of khandha, we can see how the feelings are classified comprehensively by way of eight instances. For example what is distant feeling. And there are many lines, of pleasant and unpleasant feeling, and indifferent how there are in different modes to each other. This is all to condition more and more panna. We think usually with a Self, to make a practice or develop more understanding with the Self. But this is ony reading studying considering. Even a line from Vibhanga can condition a right understanding, just bacause the Dhamma had been read. Not because of a Self that try to accquire more of panna. So I think reading, listening, studying Dhamma and leaving the rest to conditions. Applying the ear I think conditions a panna itself, this is from Path of discrimination, I think. .... S: I'm very glad to hear you discussing dhammas again. You explain very well, too. I remember before when you quoted and discussed from the Vibhanga. As you say, just a line can condition right understanding, depending on the accumulated wisdom. ... > > > S: I think it's more than a "designation name". For example, the 3 viratis are classified under sila - easy to follow. Samma ditthi and samma sankapa (vitakka cetasika) are classified under understanding. This is because panna needs vitakka to touch and experience the object. Samadhi cannot be purified without viriya and sati. Someone else may have a better explanation. > > L: That was said about right effort, right awareness, right concentration in Dispeller of Delusion, commentary to Vibhanga, that those three are like a close friends, helping each other to acquire common goal. All three are like a three friends, that going into some kind of celebration, saw an apple tree. And wanting to pick up an apple from a branch, they couldnt get it on their own separately. Then they started to help each other, to get this apple. One friend, bend down giving his back as a strong support to stand on him so that another friend could get an apple. But the second friend stand on his back, but still he was not stable to stand on his own, he was bending in sides, then the third friend came and give him his shoulder as a support, so that he was not shaking anymore and could get an apple. In this simile, The frist friend was samma-vayamo, right effort, that gives his back as as strong foundation to the other. The second friend was samma-sati, that came on his back and try to get an apple, to touch and get it. And the 3rd friend was samma-samadhi, right concentration, that gives him a support to not trumble, from its object. So samadhi, are like the three friends, that accomplish the same function, function of samadhi. They must always be 3 to acquire the goal. ... S: Excellent and well summarised. So you've answered your own question much more fully! I had forgotten this description and detail. Perhaps you can recall or find one for samma-ditthi and samma-sankappa which I referred to as working together. If you have time to type these extracts out concerning the 3 divisions of the path, I think it would be helpful for others too. Metta Sarah ===== #123008 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 5:39 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi RobE (122815) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > RE: Appreciate all your notes, Jon. How would you define the range of things that can be verified by direct experience right now, as you say above? I would be very interested in how you would describe that, and I think it would be significant. > =============== J: A good question, Rob. The particular aspect(s) of the teachings that can be verified by direct experience by a person who has heard and understood intellectually the teachings will of course vary from one individual to the next depending on what has been heard and on past accumulations of understanding from direct experience. There is no set 'menu' of items. However, we may suppose it will be one of the basic aspects of the teachings such as: - that the experiencing, and the objects experienced, through one sense-door is unique and separate from the experiencing, or the from the objects experienced, through any of the other sense-doors (i.e., that there are 6 different worlds); - that an experiencing (nama) is quite different in nature from an object experienced which does not itself experience anything (rupa); - that thoughts and feelings arise by conditions ('by themselves') without any 'input' from us; - that hearing the teachings repeatedly in the course of daily life (i.e., other than in a 'practice' setting) is a condition for useful reflection on, and a better intellectual understanding of, the teachings, and that this feeds through into a better understanding of dhammas; and so on. I'm sure there's something here that you can relate to. Jon #123009 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 5:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Short on "no-control" sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > >D: sankhara khanda is defined by 'intention, contact, & attention' > .... > S: Often in the suttas, just some examples are given. In fact all cetasikas other than vedana and sanna are sankhara khandha. All conditioned dhammas are included in the khandhas. > > D: sankhara , the 2nd of the chain and sankhara khanda , 4th , are different .... S: As discussed before, sankhara in D.O. refers to (past) kamma, i.e cetana cetasika of the strength of kamma patha. All kinds of cetana are included in sankhara khandha as you referred to above. Sankhara khandha comprises all cetasikas apart from vedana and sanna, as I mentioned, i.e. 50 cetasikas. If you look at the chart in the back on Nyantiloka's dictionary, these are all listed - the other 5 universal cetasikas (phassa, cetana, jivita, samadhi and manasikara), the 6 particulars (vitakka, vicara, adhihmokkha, viriya, piti and chanda), the 25 sobhana cetasikas and the 14 akusala cetasikas. .... > ... > (> avijja-sankhara is (accumulated) past which conditions the mental-bodily consciousness , i.e. the khandas) > .... > S: All the dhammas referred to in D.O. are khandhas. The nama-rupa referred to as conditioned by sankhara refers to the vipaka cetasikas and rupas conditioned by kamma. (S: I just corrected a typo in what I wrote before). >While these dhammas are khandhas, so are all the other dhammas referred to. Nibbana is the only dhamma which is not khandha. (By the way, bodily consciousness is nama, not rupa). > .... > D: where do/did you get this from? .... S: The clear detail is found in the commentaries and Abhidhamma. I think you refer to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. Most the detail is there too. Here is a brief quote from the commentaries to the Mahanidana Sutta, "The Great Discourse on Causation", transl by B.Bodhi, which I think is relevant: "Cy. When consciousness is a condition for mentality-materiality, when mentality-materiality is a condition for consciousness, when the two occur as conditions for one another, it is by this much that one can be born....pass away and re-arise, that birth, etc., or repeated death and rebirth-linking, can be discerned. "Sub Cy. He shows: 'The entire round of sa'msaara occurs by this much - by the five aggregates, here called consciousness and mentality-materiality, occurring with one another as support.' " 'By this much' (ettakena): by this much only. This is a phrase of inclusive emphasis meaning: 'not through anything else besides this, through a self having the intrinsic nature of a subject or agent or through a creator God, etc.' " "Cy, 'A sphere for wisdom' (pa~n~naavacara): that which is to be encompassed by wisdom, that which can be known. 'The round turns': the round of sa'msaara turns. 'This present state of being': this is a name for the five aggregates. 'For describing': for the sake of describing by names, for the description by the names 'feeling,' 'perception.' etc. The meaning is: the five aggregates too are discerned to this extent. 'That is, when there is mentality-materiality together with consciousness': what is meant is, to the extent that mentality-materiality together with consciousness': what is meant is, to the extent that mentality-materiality and consciousness occur as conditions for one another." .... > I think it is rather clear that avijja -sankhara which condition vinnana (cond . nama rupa ), can not be incl. within the khandas. ... S: See above. Metta Sarah ==== #123010 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 5:52 pm Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > I think that the correct intellectual understanding of Dhamma, repeating and investigating relevant passages, is definitely something that everyone does on dsg, objections to the contrary notwithstanding. It's also been expressed many times that wise consideration of the Dhamma is necessary to development of pariyatti. I think that people just want to emphasize that moments of arising dhammas are the main point of all of that, not that one shouldn't read, figure out, or speak about scriptural information. ... S: That's a helpful summary. Metta Sarah ===== #123011 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 6:00 pm Subject: Re: Hello! I'm a new member and I would like to be your story teller. sarahprocter... Dear Yawares, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Yawares Sastri" wrote: > My name is Yawares Sastri, I love Dhammapada stories and Jataka stories very much. To me, these stories are like my magic maps to find my way to high heaven and finally to Nirvana. These stories teach me to do good deeds, to make best merits, to lead my life according to the Buddha's preaching. > > This beautiful Texas morning, I would like to share 'The Story of Two Splendid Swan' with you all. .... S: Welcome to DSG, Yawares. You mention you are from Texas and have the same surname as our old friend Tep, (as I recall), so I'm wondering if you're related to him? If so, pls pass on my best wishes. We've missed him. I also find there is a wealth of helpful reminders in the Dhp and Jataka stories, so I'm very glad to hear that you'll be our "story teller". In this one we can learn from the virtues of the swans. (I've just printed it out to read more carefully later.) Metta Sarah ===== #123012 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 6:11 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Rob E (122822) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: There is no correlation between the gaining of enlightenment and the giving up of the household life. The household life can be given up at any time before enlightenment or even before the development of the path begins. So in many cases there will be no perceptible change in conventional behaviour . > > RE: But in any case it *must* cease for the arahant if it has not been previously given up? Why is that, if it is merely a change in conventional lifestyle? Does it not reflect the culmination of certain accumulations and tendencies? > =============== J: Yes, if we are talking about the 4 stages of enlightenment, then at each stage there is the eradication of certain kinds and levels of akusala and, correspondingly, the eradication of certain inherent (accumulated) tendencies. Of course, the extent to which the attainment of a particular stage will be followed by a noticeable change conventional lifestyle will depend very much on the conventional lifestyle being lived just before attaining that stage. It is entirely possible that some of the accumulated akusala tendencies being eradicated had not in any event manifested at all within that same lifetime. > =============== > > J: There is no specific 'certain degree of kusala' that is necessary before the development of kusala of the level of understanding begins. Such a notion was never mentioned in the suttas. > > RE: I'm not saying there is this or that level, but the level you mention, "the development of kusala of the level of understanding" still must be present in order for understanding to take place. So then that is the level, whatever that is - it is still dependent on that degree of kusala. And understanding itself is kusala, even if the object of understanding is akusala. > =============== J: There is already, for all of us, previously accumulated understanding (otherwise we'd not be interested in the teachings). It's a matter of the factors that condition the manifesting (or re-arising) of those accumulated tendencies. > =============== > RE: That doesn't really resolve the issue of what a firm resolve not to kill insects represents in terms of development and understanding. Do you feel it has no relation to the path at all? > =============== J: A 'resolve to do (or not do)' something is just a kind of thinking (unless of course it is the product of panna). As such it may be conditioned by kusala, by akusala or by a combination of both. The (unfortunate) truth is, I think, that most instances of deliberate resolve are likely to be driven either by wanting to be a better person or by the belief that they are a necessary or desirable part of the development of the path. > =============== > > J: Would you mind clarifying whether you were referring to the pre-enlightenment stage or the post-enlightenment stage (as I took you to mean the former). Thanks. > > RE: I don't know at what stage such things take place, but whether it is pre or post enlightenment my only point is that such things do take place at certain stages, and whatever they are, whether pre or post, they are "permanent" changes that represent accumulations on the path. > =============== J: Such "permanent changes" only occur at supra-mundane path moments -- the moment of attainment of each of the 4 stages of enlightenment. > =============== > RE: What is it about the sotapanna that does make it impossible to fall back? > =============== J: The eradication of all wrong view about dhammas. > =============== > > J: the 'understanding of anatta, etc.' and the 'kusala qualities of insight, etc.' are one and the same thing, so one cannot speak of one as being the prerequisite for the other. > > RE: There is still a necessary degree of kusala before that degree of understanding can take place. Is that not so? > =============== J: As mentioned above, there is already some accumulated understanding, but it can only manifest, or develop further, under the right conditions. Jon #123013 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 6:30 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > S: There may just be natural wholesome virati (abstention from harming), natural sila. For example, a group of children may be harming insects, but one may abstain and consider the needs of those insects. At such times, there's no understanding of dhammas. There may be just moments of karuna and metta. If there's some understanding of the value of karuna and metta and abstention at such times, there can be a growth of calmness (samatha). Still, it's not the understanding of realities. > >R: This is a good distinction, but does the occurrence of such kusala without understanding still lead to the arising of more kusala in the future, and does this affect development of insight at all, or is it a completely separate track? If separate, does that non-insight-based kusala do any good in terms of the path? .... S: When such kusala without understanding arises (by natural decisive support condition, i.e natural accumulations for such), it conditions more of the same, just as akusala, such as lobha or dosa, leads to more of the same. However, without understanding, it doesn't (directly) lead to any development of insight - it perpetuates the cycle of samsara. So it doesn't directly "do any good in terms of the path" unless there is understanding of the kusala dhammas when they arise. Also, if there is no understanding, one may be influenced by wrong views which suggest that the kusala accumulations are not good and in the future be less inclined to sila, dana, metta and so on. It is only the development of understanding that brings the firm confidence in what is worthy and what is not. Otherwise, there will always be doubt. ... > > At other times, children may abstain from harming because they follow an instruction or a precept. So we read in the texts that there are different kinds of virati (abstention) - natural virati, virati from following a precept/instruction, and virati with the development of insight, the highest virati. > > Also good distinctions. > > Does natural virati come from accumulation of metta or other kusala in the past? .... S: This is what I wrote before: "S: The commentators distinguish three types of virati: (1) natural abstinence; 2)abstinence by undertaking precepts; and 3) abstinence by eradication.[see Asl 103-104; Expos., pp. 136-7] 1) Natural abstinence (sampattavirati) is the abstinence from evil deeds when the opportunity arises to engage in them, due to the consideration of one's social position, age, level of education, etc. An example is refraining from theft out of concern that one's reputation would be hurt if one is caught. .... S: I believe the virati must be kusala, but as natually occurring without panna. Just as some people naturally have a lot of metta or dana, but without any panna, so no development. .... 2) Abstinence by undertaking precepts (samaadaanavirati) is the abstinence from evil deeds because one has undertaken to observe precepts, for example, the Five Precepts of abstaining from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, false speech, and intoxicants. ... S: Samaadaanavirati must be with panna as I understand. Not just undertaking to follow the precepts because these are the rules of the temple or on full moon day in a Buddhist country or at school, but because there is an understanding of the harmful deeds abstained from at such moments. .... 3) Abstinence by eradication (samucchedavirati) is the abstinence associated with the supramundane path consciousness, which arises eradicating the dispositions towards evil deeds. Whereas the previous two viratis are mundane, this one is supramundane. .... S: Clearly this refers to '"the cutting off" of the tendency to such deeds as culminating from the development of satipatthana. For the arahant, there's no more virati arising, because there's no thought or idea of any more akusala arising." ... > And, as usual I am having a hard time coordinating the statements about conventional actions and presence of insight - in other words, if the highest virati is abstention from harming because of insight, why does insight have a seeming expression in conventional behavior? Is it because the conventional behavior is a sort of side-effect or sign of the abstention on the dhamma level, or is it because there is a relation between abstaining from conventional actions and the presence of understanding? Another way of asking this would be to ask if insight expresses itself in terms of abstaining from conventional harm? Do we have concern for beings arise because of insight, even though such beings are just conventional? .... S: These are good questions. Obviously, at the "cutting off" stages of enlightenment, the tendency to harm is eradicated completely with other defilements, beginning with the most gross. When we appreciate more that there really are only dhammas - on person who harms us, for example, then who or what is there to be angry with, to try to hurt in anyway? Likewise, the more understanding there is of kamma and its results in terms of dhammas, why would there be any intention to take what does not belong to one or to think this could bring pleasant results? Simply, the more dhammas of all kinds are understood just as they are, the more the danger in seen in even the slightest faults, let alone the greatest faults or akusala when it arises. See also this interesting transcript from the audio on killing and why a sotapanna doesn't kill: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/114735 I think you'd also find the recently uploaded audio discussions (which includes this part) interesting. ..... > > S: Definitely. When there is metta or kusala citta, the cetana is also kusala - no akusala cetana, no akusala kamma. > > This also suggests, in a way, that kusala cetana will not lead to akusala actions, so can I make a connection between such abstention and the kusala dhammas involved at the time? ... S: The abstention, virati cetasika is kusala dhamma, accompanied by other kusala factors. It is the abstention which arises when there is an opportunity to harm. For example, we're about to harm an insect or speak harshly when virati and other kusala factors arise (with or without panna) and there is no harming. ... > > We can learn for ourselves what the cittas are at such times. > > That is an exciting prospect, if and when such understanding occurs. ... S: It has to begin now - no other time! Metta Sarah ==== #123014 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 7:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello! I'm a new member and I would like to be your story teller. nilovg Dear Yawares, Welcome here. I like the story of the Swans very much. Siila is praised, kusala conquers akusala. It is good to be always sincere. The Jatakas are very good reminders to apply the Dhamma in daily life. I appreciate your post. Nina. Op 3-mrt-2012, om 15:34 heeft Yawares Sastri het volgende geschreven: > My name is Yawares Sastri, I love Dhammapada stories and Jataka > stories very much. To me, these stories are like my magic maps to > find my way to high heaven and finally to Nirvana. These stories > teach me to do good deeds, to make best merits, to lead my life > according to the Buddha's preaching. #123015 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 7:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta on controlling the mind nilovg Dear Alex, Op 3-mrt-2012, om 18:16 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > For some strange reason the Buddha kept avoiding saying that "There > is no control, nothing can be done to develop more kusala and drop > akusala", etc. Why not express "Don't do anything or you will > develop Self view" over and over again? Why such a thing is simply > not found in Tipitaka and Visuddhimagga? > > It seems that "don't do anything or it will develop Self view" is > not found in these sources. ------ N: No, this is not taught. Right effort is taught. We have to be very patient and have to persevere to develop understanding on and on, by listening, considering what has been taught. But all such moments are non-self, they can only arise because of the proper conditions. When you hear: we cannot do anything, we have to understand the context. A self cannot do anything, people may believe that there is a self who can cause the arising of sati. When we never forget conditions, all these dilemmas are solved. Also the dilemma about the meaning of anattaa. ----- Nina. #123016 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 8:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] deeds of merit, was: Bad mood nilovg Dear Scott, Op 3-mrt-2012, om 15:35 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > 2) The Dhamma involved in 'trying to help.' > > Here the operative word is 'trying.' I am making a clear > distinction between the helping that happens naturally in daily > life - and not the 'helping' that occurs in the ethereal space of a > discussion list. How is trying to help and having a goal to help > not simply desire? How is asking for help (on a list) and trying to > respond to such requests not simple attention seeking and > showcasing a certain point of view? ------ N: Even the word trying is susceptible to various interpretations. That is why I would rather think of just helping under the pu~n~na kiriya vatthu (kusala deeds) classification of siila: kusala action through body and speech. Knowing that kusala cittas are often followed by akusala cittas is no reason to have doubts about what is kusala or to belittle it. Trying to help: one does not know the cittas of the receiver, and one has no expectations. If there are expectations, there is akusala citta. Asking for help: why not? It is an occasion to listen to the Dhamma explained by someone else. I wonder (but I may be wrong) whether the points you raise make things too complicated? But I have to add that I am used to the attitude of the Thais towards simple kusala in daily life and I find that I can learn so much from them. Here is a poem from someone from a Thai monk about hospitality (from Kh Sujin's book about deeds of merit): < A poem from a book by Venerable Ruang is as follows: This is an old Thai tradition: To give warm hospitality to guests; Give the best as you possibly can, So that they enjoy their stay, Forgetting the time until they return. This poem demonstrates the considerateness, the generosity and warm hospitality of people who receive guests. From these examples we can see the benefit of developing the way of kusala which is respect.> (end quote). This has more meaning when one has experienced such hospitability. And I have! ------ Nina. #123017 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 3:34 am Subject: Re: Hello! I'm a new member and I would like to be your story teller. yawares1 Dear Sarah and Nina, Thank you for your warm welcome. Yes, Dr.Tep Sastri is my husband, that's why I get to know about both of you long before I join your group. Dr.Han Tun is also my good friend, he and Tep still run SD/JTN groups. And Tep said he've missed you and Nina too. Thanks for reading my 'Jataka story'. Best Wishes, yawares/tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Yawares, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Yawares Sastri" wrote: > > > My name is Yawares Sastri, I love Dhammapada stories and Jataka stories very much. To me, these stories are like my magic maps to find my way to high heaven and finally to Nirvana. These stories teach me to do good deeds, to make best merits, to lead my life according to the Buddha's preaching. > > > > This beautiful Texas morning, I would like to share 'The Story of Two Splendid Swan' with you all. > .... > S: Welcome to DSG, Yawares. You mention you are from Texas and have the same surname as our old friend Tep, (as I recall), so I'm wondering if you're related to him? If so, pls pass on my best wishes. We've missed him. > > I also find there is a wealth of helpful reminders in the Dhp and Jataka stories, so I'm very glad to hear that you'll be our "story teller". In this one we can learn from the virtues of the swans. (I've just printed it out to read more carefully later.) > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #123018 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 3:48 am Subject: Gotama Buddha [ by Dr.C.B. Varma, D.Litt ] yawares1 Dear Members, This chilly Sunday morning, I would like to start with the story of Gotama Buddha. *************** Gotama Buddha (563 - 483 B.C) Born of King Suddhodana and his chief consort Maha Maya, Siddhattha Gotama lived in great comfort and luxury in three palaces, namely, Ramma, Suramma and Subha for twenty-nine years in the kingdom of Kapilavatthu (Sanskritised: Kapilavastu) until he resolved to renounce the worldly life. Before his conception he lived in the Tusita heaven and waited for the most opportune moment to be born on the earth. He was born in the grove of Lumbini, when his mother was on her way to Devadaha to visit her parents under a sal tree on the full moon day of the Visakha month (around May). Lumbini: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVaypK6mAr0 Sage Asita (Kaladevala) visited him by breaking his meditation in the Himalayas when he heard of his birth from the devas of the Tavatimsa. Asita was delighted to see the baby Siddhattha as he was destined to be a Buddha; but wept because he was not to live long to hear his discourses. On the fifth day, when the name-giving-ceremony was being celebrated with the participation of one hundred and eight Brahmins: seven of them, namely, Rama, Dhaja, Lakkhana, Manti, Bhoja, Suyama and Sudatta predicted that the baby would either be an emperor of emperors (Chakkavatti); or a Buddha. But Kondanna, the youngest of them had said that the baby would definitely be a Buddha. The baby was given the name Siddhattha. Seven days after the delivery of Siddhattha, Mahamaya, his mother died. Maha Pajapati, the sister of Mahamaya, who, too, along with Mahamaya was married to Suddhodana on the same day, nurtured him. When the prince was sixteen years old he summoned an assembly of the Sakiyans and demonstrated various feats of a great warrior. According to the Sarabhanga Jataka he performed twelve feats with a bow, which required the strength of one thousand men to be lifted. Further, according to the legends the Sakiyans were so impressed by his feats that he was offered the hands of forty thousand Sakiyan maidens in marriage. The princess of Suppabuddha, named Bimbaa (who was also called Bhaddakacchaa, Subhaddakaa and Yasodharaa [Sanskrit and Hindi: Yashodhara] and popularly known as Rahulamata [Mother of Rahula]), however, became his chief wife. At the age of twenty-nine having realised the triviality of the worldly life - particularly after encountering the four sights, viz., the sight of a diseased person; an old man; a dead body; and a recluse – he eventually renounced the worldly life to lead the life of a recluse. Then crossing the three kingdoms of the Sakiyans, Koliyans and Mallas he crossed the river Anoma and cut off his hair and beard. Then he sent his charioteer Channa and his horse Kanthaka back to his father. The horse, however, could not bear the pain of separation from his master and died. Since then Siddhattha wandered from place to place, such as, Anupiya mango grove, Rajgir and so on in quest of the Truth. In course of his quest, he approached Alara Kalama to learn the methods of spiritual practices to realise the truth. When dissatisfied with the Alara he turned to Uddaka Ramaputta. But he was not satisfied with his doctrine as well. Later, he went to Senanigama in Uruvela and practised severe penances for six years along with five ascetics, who later became popular as `Pancha-vaggiya bhikkhus'. Having realised the folly of extreme austerity he took recourse to normal food. This made the five ascetics desert him and depart to Isipatana Park at Sarnath. Sujata satisfied the Siddhattha's desire for the normal food by offering him milk rice in a golden bowl on the full moon day of the Visakha month. That day he bathed in the river Niranjara; ate the food; and left the bowl in the stream, which sank to the abode of the Naga king Kala. He then spent the day in the sal grove. In the evening he came to the Bodhi tree. There Sotthiya, a grass cutter, offered him eight handfuls of grass, which he placed eastward and sat cross-legged on it with a firm resolve to meditate until the attainment of his Enlightenment. Then all the divinities including Maha Brahma appeared there to honour him. But when Mara and his army attacked him; and their sight frightened them they all fled. Only the ten Paramis (or Perfections) like that of charity and righteousness, which he had mastered in various births, stood by him to defeat and rout the forces of Mara. When Gotama emerged victorious by defeating Mara, those devas, who had fled at the sight of Mara, reassembled there to celebrate the victory of the great sage. Gotama, however, engrossed in meditation remembered his former existences in the first watch of the night; attained the divine eye (dibba chakkhu) in the second watch of night; and realised the Chain of Causation (Paticchasamuppada) in the third watch of night. When he mastered Paticchasamuppada the earth trembled. Finally, at dawn he attained Enlightenment. He enjoyed the blissful meditation of paticchasamuppada for seven days while sitting under the Bodhi tree. He spent the second week at the foot of the Ajapala Nigrodha tree, where he was accosted by a haughty Brahmin; and defeated the three daughters of Mara, namely, Tanha, Arati and Raga, who took the last chance to dissuade him. He spent the third week under the hood of the Naga king Muchalinda; and the fourth week under the Rajayatana tree where he converted Tapussa and Bhallika even without imparting any instruction. He was then approached by Brahma Sahampati to profess his teachings to the world, as there are several receptive minds to appreciate his doctrine, and thereby, set the wheel of the dhamma in motion to uplift the world. The Buddha acceded to the request of Brahma Sahampati. He then walked to Isipatana Migadaya (the Deer Park) at Sarnath to deliver his first sermon to the five select ascetics, popularly known as Panchavaggiya bhikkhus, who happened to be his ascetic companions for six years in Uruvela. Isipatana: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReFyQIWrdx0 **************** TO BE CONTINUED************* Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123019 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 4:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Short on "no-control" moellerdieter Dear Sarah , you wrote: S: As discussed before, sankhara in D.O. refers to (past) kamma, i.e cetana cetasika of the strength of kamma patha. All kinds of cetana are included in sankhara khandha as you referred to above. D: let me try to say it in your words with a minimum of change 'As discussed before, sankhara in D.O.(2nd) refers to (past/previous) kamma(force), it conditions cetana cetasika of the strength of kamma patha. All kinds of cetana cetasika are included in sankhara khandha as you referred to above. S:Sankhara khandha comprises all cetasikas apart from vedana and sanna, as I mentioned, i.e. 50 cetasikas. If you look at the chart in the back on Nyantiloka's dictionary, these are all listed - the other 5 universal cetasikas (phassa, cetana, jivita, samadhi and manasikara), the 6 particulars (vitakka, vicara, adhihmokkha, viriya, piti and chanda), the 25 sobhana cetasikas and the 14 akusala cetasikas. D: yes > (> avijja-sankhara is (accumulated) past which conditions the mental-bodily consciousness , i.e. the khandas)> .... > S: All the dhammas referred to in D.O. are khandhas. D: hm.. I wonder about a canonical source for this statement S: The nama-rupa referred to as conditioned by sankhara refers to the vipaka cetasikas and rupas conditioned by kamma. (S: I just corrected a typo in what I wrote before). D: let me repeat the (common) order of D.O. to avoid misunderstandings due to a different presentation : avijja cond. sankhara cond vinnana cond nama / rupa etc.. nama/rupa is defined by 'feeling, perception, volition,contact and attention this is called mind. The four great elements (earth, water, fire,air) and the material form assumed by the 4 elements ' , SN XII 2. ( Volition,contact and attention stand for sankhara khanda ) In other words .....sankhara (2nd. ) conditions citta conditions cetasika /rupa Previous/accumulated /past kamma appears to us as this mental/corporeal consciousness , i.e. includes vipaka. New kamma is our (re(action) towards its cognition/awareness ,the process as described by the elements of the chain ... Of special importance for contemplation of D.O. is the sequence of contact-feeling - thirst -clinging ..... S:>While these dhammas are khandhas, so are all the other dhammas referred to. Nibbana is the only dhamma which is not khandha. D: as dhammas covers 'all things ', they cover the 5 khandas , not vice versa .. (see above) is nibbana a 'thing ' ? That would be a no(t)- thing , wouldn't it? S:(By the way, bodily consciousness is nama, not rupa). D: I wonder whether only in Abhidhamma (?) or commentaries nama includes vinnana , whereas e.g. in S.N. XII 2 it isn't (and would not fit ) As I see it , we are consious of the form / condition of the 4 modes .. is this knowing mental ? It is knowing about body, not knowing about mental phenomena /dhamma... there is no knowing of knowing. > .... > D: where do/did you get this from? .... S: The clear detail is found in the commentaries and Abhidhamma. I think you refer to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. Most the detail is there too. Here is a brief quote from the commentaries to the Mahanidana Sutta, "The Great Discourse on Causation", transl by B.Bodhi, which I think is relevant: "Cy. When consciousness is a condition for mentality-materiality, when mentality-materiality is a condition for consciousness, when the two occur as conditions for one another, it is by this much that one can be born....pass away and re-arise, that birth, etc., or repeated death and rebirth-linking, can be discerned. "Sub Cy. He shows: 'The entire round of sa'msaara occurs by this much - by the five aggregates, here called consciousness and mentality-materiality, occurring with one another as support.' " 'By this much' (ettakena): by this much only. This is a phrase of inclusive emphasis meaning: 'not through anything else besides this, through a self having the intrinsic nature of a subject or agent or through a creator God, etc.' " "Cy, 'A sphere for wisdom' (pa~n~naavacara): that which is to be encompassed by wisdom, that which can be known. 'The round turns': the round of sa'msaara turns. 'This present state of being': this is a name for the five aggregates. 'For describing': for the sake of describing by names, for the description by the names 'feeling,' 'perception.' etc. The meaning is: the five aggregates too are discerned to this extent. 'That is, when there is mentality-materiality together with consciousness': what is meant is, to the extent that mentality-materiality together with consciousness': what is meant is, to the extent that mentality-materiality and consciousness occur as conditions for one another." D: I remember to have read about the explanation why these 2 'heaps' are conditioning eachother ( please note that here too consciousness isn't called nama ) as mentioned in the Mahanidana Sutta . One thing for sure: it is not meant to nullify the first and second link of D.O.. As I understand it , special emphasize was given to the ' heaps leaning against eachother', to show its interrelation , its dependence on eachother, its reflection . (reflection of previous kamma /vipaka -future kamma = (re) action ) .... > I think it is rather clear that avijja -sankhara which condition vinnana (cond . nama rupa ), can not be incl. within the khandas. ... S: See above. D: see above .. B.T.W. : we both aren't easy in dancing , are we ? :-) with Metta Dieter #123020 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 7:21 am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 truth_aerator Hello Jon, >J: We have been discussing the question of whether, according to >the texts, the NEP is a path that is to be *followed*. > When the Buddha told us to strive as if one's head is on fire, to strive so hard that flesh & blood dries up, to crush mind with mind, etc, I cannot imagine how anyone can be clearer about producing energetic effort, which by its nature and nature of similes, not passive. >Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful >attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. >---------------- They are ALL intentional. To associate with superior person requires intention to visit them to hear the Dhamma. To hear the Dhamma requires intention to listen to it rather than some other worldly thing. Careful attention vs careless attention is also a definitely intentional activity, one has to strive to reflect on things in a new way (anicca, asubha, dukkha, anatta) rather than follow the easiest and most common reaction. Nothing to say about "practice of dhamma in accordance with the dhamma". To strive as if one's head is on fire, to strive so hard that flesh & blood dries up, to crush mind with mind, etc, I cannot imagine how anyone can be clearer about producing energetic effort, which by its nature and nature of similes, not passive. -The Buddha had LOTS of occasions to explain that "don't intentionally strive", yet He failed to say this. But He did talk about striving in such forceful manner that to read it to mean anything else is like arguing that 2+2 is not 4. It seems that some people interpret certain teaching and apply interpretations (not taught by the Buddha) back to the texts. I hope you understand why I disagree with what some members say. With metta, Alex #123021 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 1:34 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...Thinking about experience is not the same as talking about thinking." Scott: I said that talking about 'experience' is only thinking. The 'experience' to which you refer is 'your experience' which is only thinking. When a dhamma 'experiences' it will not translate into 'your experience' - that is just you thinking much, much later. Want 'experience?' Go see a movie. Drop acid. Read a book. Scott #123022 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] deeds of merit, was: Bad mood scottduncan2 Dear Nina, N: "...I wonder (but I may be wrong) whether the points you raise make things too complicated?" Scott: Things *are* complicated. As you know, my thoughts about the Dhamma are as valid as are anyone else's on the list. I am a long-time supporter of the predominant views expressed here simply because they seem correct to me. I will disagree with things I don't find so correct. There are many implicit beliefs about this or that aspect of the Dhamma that I think are *only religion* and can be shown by wisdom to be superfluous. I am not against kindness, if this is the impression you have been getting. I am pointing out that beauty is only skin deep. I am pointing out that discussion on a list is for discussion, not for acting like someone's idea of what people are supposed to act like when they supposedly know about the Dhamma. Such ideas miss the point of the Dhamma entirely. Scott. #123023 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 8:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta on controlling the mind truth_aerator Dear Nina, >N: No, this is not taught. Right effort is taught. Yes, and the Buddha used very forceful similes to describe it: To strive as if one's head is on fire, to strive so hard that flesh & blood dries up, to crush mind with mind, etc, I cannot imagine how anyone could be clearer about producing energetic effort, which by its nature and nature of similes, not passive. >But all such moments are non-self, they can only arise because of >the proper conditions. >============= Right. Of course. In order to cut an apple with the knife, there needs to be apple, knife, arm with which one holds the apple and another arm that cuts apple with knife, etc. For effort, one of the requirements is to actually apply effort. With metta, Alex #123024 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 10:47 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "...Thinking about experience is not the same as talking about thinking." > > Scott: I said that talking about 'experience' is only thinking. The 'experience' to which you refer is 'your experience' which is only thinking. When a dhamma 'experiences' it will not translate into 'your experience' - that is just you thinking much, much later. > > Want 'experience?' Go see a movie. Drop acid. Read a book. I understand the difference between personal experience and a dhamma experiencing something. If I talk about "experience" in a Dhamma context, I mean the latter. All talking involves thinking, but some talk and some thought refers to the nature of actual experience, and some does not. You seem to have some markers for which is which when other people are speaking, but they may not be accurate. Better to talk about the specifics you object to rather than creating generalities with no specific referents. Rob E. = = = = = = = = #123025 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 10:51 am Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > RE: Appreciate all your notes, Jon. How would you define the range of things that can be verified by direct experience right now, as you say above? I would be very interested in how you would describe that, and I think it would be significant. > > =============== > > J: A good question, Rob. > > The particular aspect(s) of the teachings that can be verified by direct experience by a person who has heard and understood intellectually the teachings will of course vary from one individual to the next depending on what has been heard and on past accumulations of understanding from direct experience. > > There is no set 'menu' of items. However, we may suppose it will be one of the basic aspects of the teachings such as: > - that the experiencing, and the objects experienced, through one sense-door is unique and separate from the experiencing, or the from the objects experienced, through any of the other sense-doors (i.e., that there are 6 different worlds); > - that an experiencing (nama) is quite different in nature from an object experienced which does not itself experience anything (rupa); > - that thoughts and feelings arise by conditions ('by themselves') without any 'input' from us; > - that hearing the teachings repeatedly in the course of daily life (i.e., other than in a 'practice' setting) is a condition for useful reflection on, and a better intellectual understanding of, the teachings, and that this feeds through into a better understanding of dhammas; > and so on. > > I'm sure there's something here that you can relate to. Thanks for that; I think that's a very useful inventory of the possible areas in which direct experience and potentially insight into the teachings could take place, depending on accumulations and conditions; and also an idea of how exposure and reflection on the teachings will continue to feed the possibility of such experience. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #123026 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 9:43 am Subject: Neither Lazy, nor Restless! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Ballanced Energy is neither Lazy, nor Restless! Laziness overcomes one strong in concentration and weak in energy, since concentration favours idle inaction... Agitation and restlessness overpowers one strong in energy and weak in concentration, because energy stimulate agitation... But concentration coupled & ballanced with energy cannot lapse into laziness, & energy coupled & ballanced with concentration cannot provoke restlessness... Therefore should these two abilities be ballanced, since excellence of effort and mental absorption arises out of the even ballancing of the mental abilities. <...> Source: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga by Buddhaghosa 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Ballanced Energy... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Sam�hita _/\_ * <....> #123027 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 11:54 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "I understand the difference between personal experience and a dhamma experiencing something. If I talk about 'experience' in a Dhamma context, I mean the latter." Scott: Do you? Here's your statement: "You could see how experiencing the unpleasant rupas as vipaka would potentially give a certain degree of freedom from making the story even more complicated and created more disturbances." Scott: As Phil began to point out, here you are clearly talking about thinking - and way post-hoc. Vipaaka is a term referring to each object 'experienced' by the sense doors - these objects are all conditioned by past kamma. When these dhammas are objects of naama at the sense door there is no thinking whatsoever about 'vipaaka' or anything of the kind. So here, you are saying 'experiencing the unpleasant rupas' as a way of referring to thinking about dhammas and in no way referring to any 'experience' of a given sense door dhamma. Here there is no way that you can suggest that this is 'a dhamma experiencing something.' A dhamma isn't thinking all of these thoughts you are attributing to it. You are clearly referring to thinking about 'experience.' This is why I take you to task for what I consider to be your loose 'experientialism.' R: "All talking involves thinking, but some talk and some thought refers to the nature of actual experience, and some does not..." Scott: In the statement you made above, you are clearly *not* referring to dhammas. This is clearly more 'experimentalism' and is quite inaccurate. Scott. #123028 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 12:03 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob E., I take advantage of the lag between when I post to when the mods let the post through to correct what spell check thought of my neologism: R: "All talking involves thinking, but some talk and some thought refers to the nature of actual experience, and some does not..." Scott: In the statement you made above, you are clearly *not* referring to dhammas. This is clearly more 'experientialism' and is quite inaccurate. Scott. #123029 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 4:24 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "I understand the difference between personal experience and a dhamma experiencing something. If I talk about 'experience' in a Dhamma context, I mean the latter." > > Scott: Do you? Here's your statement: > > "You could see how experiencing the unpleasant rupas as vipaka would potentially give a certain degree of freedom from making the story even more complicated and created more disturbances." > > Scott: As Phil began to point out, here you are clearly talking about thinking - and way post-hoc. You're right. I didn't have the quote in front of me since you didn't quote it in the last message. In this message I was talking about understanding conceptuall that what we take for unpleasant circumstances are really vipaka, and my point about that remains the same. But I was using experiencing in this case as having the correct perspective, not experiencing a dhamma in the moment. > Vipaaka is a term referring to each object 'experienced' by the sense doors - these objects are all conditioned by past kamma. When these dhammas are objects of naama at the sense door there is no thinking whatsoever about 'vipaaka' or anything of the kind. Right, but here I am talking about correct conceptual understanding. It's a different point. I'm not confusing dhammas with concepts, I am talking about conceptual understanding. ... > R: "All talking involves thinking, but some talk and some thought refers to the nature of actual experience, and some does not..." > > Scott: In the statement you made above, you are clearly *not* referring to dhammas. This is clearly more 'experimentalism' and is quite inaccurate. Nope, I am referring to dhammas, but not to the direct experience of them. I am referring to correct thinking about dhammas, in this case vipaka, which I think is one factor leading towards pariyatti. Rob E. = = = = = = = = #123030 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 4:49 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > I take advantage of the lag between when I post to when the mods let the post through to correct what spell check thought of my neologism: > > R: "All talking involves thinking, but some talk and some thought refers to the nature of actual experience, and some does not..." > > Scott: In the statement you made above, you are clearly *not* referring to dhammas. This is clearly more 'experientialism' and is quite inaccurate. I guess you didn't see my response yet...? It's not "experientialism" or whatever other convoluted pseudo-label you want to invent for my use of common words. The sense of what I said is obvious: it is talking about correct thinking about dhammas, which is not an unusual topic around here. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #123031 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 5:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low jonoabb Hi Scott (and Sarah) Butting in, if I may :-)) (122989) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Me: "...I can think of: Dhamma versus counselling; the Dhamma involved in 'trying to help'; Dhamma homogenization - to suggest a few." > > Sarah: "I picked out the questions in what you wrote as I recall. If there were any points/discussion topics just about dhammas or Dhamma, I'm happy to purse them." > > Scott: In each suggested category there is room to fit into your stated parameters for discussion. Put these in your 'purse' - ha ha - and see if you can find them again. > > 1) Dhamma versus counselling. > > Do you think that merely using Dhamma-language in an attempt to 'help' someone feel better corresponds to the Dhamma? Do you think that ordinary advice on a discussion list corresponds to Dhamma? If so, how? > =============== J: I don't quite see how a conventional activity/situation could "correspond to" (or not) the Dhamma. In what sense do you mean this? > =============== Do you think that 'counselling' with a Dhamma twist is preferable to just 'counselling?' If so, then how. Is attempting to counsel, based on Dhamma, an example of 'applied boodism?' > =============== J: The conventional expressions, especially "with a Dhamma twist" and "based on Dhamma" would have to be clarified. Are you, for example, referring to the person with a proper understanding of the Dhamma? What is the 'counselling' situation you have in mind? > =============== Given that anatta is at the base of the impersonal functioning of dhammas, I would think that 'counselling' as Dhamma discussion would be more like window-dressing. > =============== J: You are perhaps referring to recent exchanges on the list between Lucas and others. I would not characterise these as a "counselling as Dhamma discussion" situation. I see them as Dhamma discussion with some friendly advice thrown in (akin to the suggestions made by members when Howard asked for advice regarding the insect infestation in his house). Overall, it's difficult to see how this topic could form the basis for a Dhamma discussion unless somebody sees a particular issue arising (and if that somebody is you, then by all means state the issue so that others can comment if they wish to). Jon #123032 From: "philip" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 5:03 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. philofillet Hi Rob E, Scott, all >phil > But we don't experience the dhammas as vipaka, do we? We think about situations in terms of vipaka, and surely it is almost alwayswith lobha in pursuit of pleasant mental feeling, Dhamma as comforter... > R.E> Since pariyatti is partially composed of correct concepts about various aspects of Dhamma, I consider it a worthwhile development in thinking when one is able to look at things in the correct framework, even if it is still just a way of thinking about it. In that sense, there's no confusion that we can suddenly experience it that way, but it's still an advance in understanding. > > Sounds fine to me, "an advance in understanding." Lots of clinging to it for comfort. I don't know to what degree or in what way correct ideas about Dhamma lead to direct understanding, I don't think anybody does. As long as we are not hungry meditators seeking insight we're probably ok, well, no chouce in the matter, we will think about Dhamma, or we won't, and this will help develop deeper understanding, or it won't. Nothing we can do to predict or speed the process. But the earnest meditators, theyare doomed, until they get free. That's how I understand "experiential", Scott, not "experience dhammas" which can be a synonym for cognize. No, it's the meditators who take their "insights" during meditation and come up eith theories based on their experience to rewrite Dhamma in light of their experience, for example a certain someone and his spirals and whirlpool metaphors and "fuzzy" dhammas and so on. That's the experientialism that gets people in trouble, it prevents them from accepting the Dhamma as taught in the texts, makes them believe that any difference between their understanding of the Dhamma and the texts is due to shortcomings in the latter which is clearly pretty nutty. Anyways, I'll drop it there guys, thanks. Phil #123033 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 5:37 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Dear Scott, #122816 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > S: "I tend to disagree with the suggestion that in a discussion 'it will always 'seem' that pariyatti and patipatti are 'divorced'.....'. Whilst we all express what we consider to be 'right' at any time, the only real test is in the direct understanding at such a time, just like at any other time - at the present moment. If we express what is 'right', what seems to be in accordance with the texts, but with akusala cittas, we fail the test and while it appears 'right', in reality, there's no 'right'..." > > Scott: Sarah, I am referring to discussions on the list. I didn't think that ongoing actual satipa.t.thaana at the moment of writing a reply was a prerequisite for discussions here. ... S: There's been no suggestion from anyone to the contrary. I'm talking about dhammas, not about particular situations, just dhammas arising and falling away - with or without any awareness. <...> > I get it though, no more discussion of this topic desired... .... S: If we're discussing dhammas, rather than a particular situation, person or writing style, for example, I'm happy to continue. Otherwise, I see no value in it. Metta Sarah ==== #123034 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 5:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, #122814 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > S: When the Buddha referred to mundane right understanding, he was referring to the development of the path, to the development of satipatthana. No matter what words might be used, it is the undersanding of realities, the understanding of the khandhas that is being referred to. In order to communicate, conventional terms must be used, but it is not the conventional view of the world that is being referred to. We don't need to hear a Buddha to understand about the use of conventional terms or what is often referred to as 'worldly wisdom'. > > D: Sarah, that is your interpretation , but the sutta doesn't say so ... ..... S: We need to read any sutta in the light of the entire Tipitaka, in the light of the Satipatthana Sutta, for example, in the light of the Abhidhamma and commentaries. As Nina already clarified, the commentary makes it clear, the two kinds of right view referred to here are "right view of insight investigating conditioned dhammas as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa, and right view of the path arising as a consequence of insight and effects the eradication of defilements." -------- > > "And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & > results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, > what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad > actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & > father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & > contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim > this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for > themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with > merit, & results in acquisitions. -------- Nina: "This does not lead to the end of the cycle, but to happy rebirth. As Sarah explained, anusayas have not been eradicated. commentary: right view of insight (vipassanaa sammaa-di.t.thi) understands wrong view as an object by penetrating its characteristics of impermanence, etc. It is also called the precursor of right view that is supramundane, lokuttara. "The Co. distinguishes five kinds of sammaa-di.t.thi: vipassanaa sammaa-di.t.thi, kammasakataa sammaa-di.t.thi (understanding kamma and vipaaka), magga sammaa-di.t.thi, phala sammaa-di.t.thi, paccavekkhana sammaa-di.t.thi (reviewing knowledge after the lokuttara cittas have fallen away). ------- "N: When one reads about kamma and result, such as, there is mother and father, spontaneously reborn beings, etc. one may wonder why there are these notions of conventional truth. They are just pointing out kamma and vipaaka, cause and result. They occur in our ordinary daily life and one may have wrong understanding or right understanding about them. Kammasakataa ~naa.na is occuring from the first stage of tender insight on. It pertains to insight." .... S: Whatever we read in the suttas, we can be sure it is referring to the development of insight of realities. This is the mundane right understanding referred to, not our usual, conventional ideas about "mother, father" and so on. .... > D: I am not sure about the Pali orginal here for 'effluents' ... S: It is 'aasavas'. When the anusayas have not been eradicated, there are bound to be the arising of ordinary kilesas, 'intoxicants', asavas. So they are closely connected. >D: Nevertheless right view without effluents means here the base for developing the ( links of the supramundane) Noble Path ,i.e. for those not yet having achieved Arahatship . I think we agree here .... S: "Without effluents', means no condition for their arising because the respective anusayas have been eradicated by the magga cittas at the various stages of enlightenment. Metta Sarah p.s re the dancing - may not be the most elegant, but I think we're used to each other as 'partners' and no serious accidents:) ======= #123035 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 6:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Hi Pt & all, #122806 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: >Pt: Yes, a lot of the time, for me at least, especially when considering finer points of abhidhamma, it essentially goes down to considering abhidhamma like one would a science/philosophy and working out the logic of it, and then working out the supposed mental states - this is probably all akusala. And I think the perception which develops at such moments of thinking about Dhamma and delving into the meaning of the texts/discussion/terms, is in fact wrong (corrupted I think was the term?) perception. And this in fact does not lead to development of understanding in any way, but towards more misunderstanding of it - so non-occurrence of panna and pariyatti, even though the words might be "right" and exactly as in the texts. Though, I don't know if there is wrong view at the time as well. .... S: I think this is honest. As we agree, for it to be pariyatti, there must be panna, not just thinking. There must be the understanding of the concepts of realities. How did those who listened to the Buddha become enlightened? Only by understanding the concepts of realities leading to direct understanding of the realities. We had a discussion in Kaeng Krachan last year about listening to Pali chanting, such as the Mangala Sutta, the Greatest Blessings. K.Sujin was stressing that it's not a matter of hearing a phrase, such as "asevana ca balanam " (the first blessing, "not to associate with fools", but a matter of really understanding the danger of having bad friends. She said: "many people can recite the Mangala Sutta, but not follow any of the 38 - no understanding of the blessings". She went on to say that "being able to recite the Tipitaka, but not understanding and meditating wrongly, destroys the Teachings, destroys the understanding of what is said about the Dhamma, i.e realities. It is against the Teachings." Chanting in the Dhamma sense is "thinking wisely about what one has heard - better and better, no just clinging to sounds and chanting if there is no understanding, just attachment to being born somewhere, to having kusala before death. The meaning is to consider what has been heard. 'asevana ca balanam' - a reminder not to associate with bad friends. All the Teachings are about understanding - right thinking is better than thinking about other things which don't bring understanding." Metta Sarah ===== #123036 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 6:33 pm Subject: Re: Pt's visit by car - this moment does not mean crashing into trees! sarahprocter... Hi Pt, #122807 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > pt: Thanks. Since this issue is still current on the list, a couple more things I'd like to double check: > > 1. we said that even though one may say/think the "right" words, that does not guarantee the presence of panna, nor kusala for that matter. > > 2. i think it was also said before that different words can be used to describe the same reality (e.g. different words for sati). ... S: Yes. .... > 3. is it not also possible that different explanations can be used - e.g. "conditionality" vs. "flux/process". What I mean is, even though two discussants may use different terminology, that still doesn't exclude the possibility of it being pariyatti for each one of them? I.e. panna of pariyatti kind arising, even though different concepts are used to describe Dhamma? Hm, probably hard to tell actually, but what I'm getting at is that the priority is the arising of panna, which makes an explanation "right", so not the actual words which are used. .... S: Yes, panna is the "priority". However, since miccha ditthi always thinks there is panna when there is actually wrong view arising, this is why one has to ask questions, consider and discuss what anyone means by a particular term or phrase to have any idea whether the explanation is "right" at any level at all. I agree with your general points however. An arahat in the time of the Buddha wouldn't have heard of the "vipassana nanas" or much of the detail we read in the commentaries, but clearly there was no enlightenment without the development of them. ... > > > S: Exactly so. Accumulating strong akusala sanna is dangerous, especially if there is the view that it's kusala and part of the path. It can lead to all kinds of mental and physical disturbances. > > pt: This was a conclusion in respect to my comment on meditation techniques. And now it seems equally applicable to studying the texts without it being pariyatti - without it being a reminder about the present moment. .... S: I think that's true, especially if there is the accumulation of strong akusala sanna with ditthi - atta sanna, at such times or the idea that the activity is in itself the path. This is why K.Sujin made the comment about reciting the Tipitaka without understanding and meditating wrongly as being against the Teachings, destroying what is said about realities. Metta Sarah ===== #123037 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 6:41 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Rob E (122822) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: To put that another way, why would a person who had developed, by direct experience, a clearer understanding of dhammas as they truly are seek to confirm that development by reference to conventional acts? > > RE: I guess they wouldn't have to, but that wouldn't stop those dhammas from being expressed in conventional life as well, if that were the case. Refraining from killing, abandoning the household life at some point, if that takes place, etc., may reflect stages of development of understanding. It may be that there's no necessary relationship between understanding dhammas and conventional patterns of action. Still, it's hard to imagine someone with advanced understanding hanging around the bar getting drunk or kicking the dog for fun, or trying to trick people out of their money in a confidence racket. Do you disagree? > =============== J: There are instances in the suttas to the contrary. For example, Angulimaala, who had developed understanding to such an advanced stage in previous lives that he was ready for enlightenment, committed murder in his final life (this of course was before he had heard the teaching in that final life). As regards good sila and good behaviour generally, this is by no means exclusive to persons of advanced understanding. So I don't think there is any correlation to be drawn, except at the post-enlightenment stage. > =============== > RE: If this sort of thing does not take place, there must be some sort of connection between understanding of dhammas and "improved" conventional behavior. I know you may not think that such a correlation is important, and maybe it's not, but I would be interested in your view of whether it does or does not in fact take place, since it seems obvious to me that it does. > =============== J: As regards a possible connection between understanding of dhammas and "improved" conventional behaviour, I would expect this to be the experience of most of us here. But I don't think there is any *necessary* link. And I certainly don't think that an improvement in conventional behaviour can be taken as confirming that there has been the (correct) development of the path. For one thing, improvement in conventional behaviour tends to come with greater maturity anyway (as pt recently pointed out to Lukas). And Phil has reported that his morning 'reflections' on matters unrelated to the teaching on dhammas result in a kinder, gentle Phil for the day :-)) Jon #123038 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] deeds of merit, was: Bad mood nilovg Dear Scott, Op 4-mrt-2012, om 16:11 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > I am pointing out that beauty is only skin deep. I am pointing out > that discussion on a list is for discussion, not for acting like > someone's idea of what people are supposed to act like when they > supposedly know about the Dhamma. Such ideas miss the point of the > Dhamma entirely. ------ N: Yes, you are concerned about truthfulness and rightly so. Sacca, truthfulness or sincerity, is one of the perfections that are indispensable and are to be developed together with satipa.t.thaana, otherwise the goal will not be reached. I was speaking about the ten classes of meritorious deeds and heard this morning Kh Sujin speaking about kusala citta. She said that people may follow traditions, customs concerning good deeds, such as paying respect to the Buddha statue. With kusala citta or with ignorance? She stressed that kusala is with the citta, not in the outward appearance of deeds. There is kusala citta when the citta is free from lobha, dosa and moha. However, we do not know the citta of someone else, only 'our own'. I find this very good while considering the ten meritorious deeds. "Only religion", I do not know. Kusala is kusala, as I said before, it can arise anywhere. The Buddha helped us to understand the citta at this moment. So, as you see, we return again to this moment ;-)) Nina. #123039 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, #122813 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: >D..... but we may also talk about Ven. Nyanatiloka's intro of magga: > ".. many of those who have written about the Eightfold Path have misunderstood its true nature, it is therefore appropriate to add here a few elucidating remarks about it, as this path is fundamental for the understanding and practice of the Buddha's .teaching. > > First of all, the figurative expression 'path' should not be interpreted to mean that one has to advance step by step in the sequence of the enumeration until, after successively passing through all the eight stages, one finally may reach one's destination, Nibbana. If this really were the case, one should have realized, first of all, right view and penetration of the truth, even before one could hope to proceed to the next steps, right thought and right speech; and each preceding stage would be the indispensable foundation and condition for each succeeding stage. In reality, however, the links 3-5 constituting moral training (sila), are the first 3 links to be cultivated, then the links 6-8 constituting mental training (samadhi), and at last right view, etc. constituting wisdom (pañña). ... S: Yes, I've read this description. I believe the last sentence is incorrect as the good sutta you recently posted on wrong view and right view as forerunners indicated. .... S: Continuing the quote from Ven N's dict entry: > It is, however, true that a really unshakable and safe foundation to the path is provided only by right view which, starting from the tiniest germ of faith and knowledge, gradually, step by step, develops into penetrating insight (vipassana) and thus forms the immediate condition for the entrance into the 4 supermundane paths and fruits of holiness, and for the realization of Nibbana. Only with regard to this highest form of supermundane insight, may we indeed say that all the remaining links of the path are nothing but the outcome and the accompaniments of right view. > > Regarding the mundane (lokiya) eightfold path, however, its links may arise without the first link, right view." ... S: Again, this last sentence is incorrect and a rather surprising comment here. We read in the texts that at any moment of the mundane path, there are always 5 or 6 factors arising, including samma ditthi. The reason there are 5 or 6 and not 8 is because only one of the viratis (right speech, right action, right livelihood) can arise at a time at mundane path moments. I do appreciate better why you've made the comments you have, however, Dieter, so thank you for sharing and highlighting this quote. Whilst it is a really excellent dictionary which I've relied on for over 35 years now, there are a few errors. I once pointed some of these out to B.Bodhi in case there could be any revision. However, he told me that when an author is no longer alive, the publishers cannot make amendments. Metta Sarah ====== #123040 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 7:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello! I'm a new member and I would like to be your story teller. sarahprocter... Der Yawres (& Tep), --- On Mon, 5/3/12, Yawares Sastri wrote: >Thank you for your warm welcome. Yes, Dr.Tep Sastri is my husband, that's why I get to know about both of you long before I join your group. Dr.Han Tun is also my good friend, he and Tep still run SD/JTN groups. And Tep said he've missed you and Nina too. .... S: Very interesting - wonderful that you both have a keen interest in the Teachings and can share good reminders. I'm sure I speak for Nina too when I say we miss our good discussions with Tep and wish you both much joy and wisdom from your Dhamma studies. ... >Thanks for reading my 'Jataka story'. ... S: Thank you for sharing the stories. Did you grow up in Thailand with familiarity with the stories? Metta Sarah ===== #123041 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 5-mrt-2012, om 7:03 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > >phil > But we don't experience the dhammas as vipaka, do we? We > think about situations in terms of vipaka, and surely it is almost > alwayswith lobha in pursuit of pleasant mental feeling, Dhamma as > comforter... > >-------- N: I would just like to add something. Seeing, hearing etc. are vipaakacittas, and why is Kh Sujin always speaking about these? Becaue we have to learn to be aware of vipaakacittas so that these will be understood as non-self, only conditioned dhammas. As you say, mostly we are after pleasant objects, we are inclined to think about situations with lobha, dosa and moha. We should be grateful that the Buddha reminded us of what vipaaka really is. ------ Nina. #123042 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 8:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 nilovg Dear Alex, Op 4-mrt-2012, om 21:21 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Nothing to say about "practice of dhamma in accordance with the > dhamma". To strive as if one's head is on fire, ------ N: True, Kh Sujin often speaks about this. Not delaying awareness of the objects appearing through the six doors. Seeing here is not different from seeing in a quiet place. There is always seeing, and be aware of it to know it as a conditioned naama. ----- > A: to strive so hard that flesh & blood dries up, to crush mind > with mind, etc, I cannot imagine how anyone can be clearer about > producing energetic effort, which by its nature and nature of > similes, not passive. ------- N: The sutta on The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, Vitakka-Santhana Sutta. (Middle Length Sayings No. 20) ------------- ***** The Commentary elaborates on the simile of the strong man who takes a weaker man by his shoulders and head and presses his throat tightly so that he becomes frightened and eventually dies. Evenso is the bhikkhu like a wrestler who opposes his unwholesome thoughts. He can abandon them by applying great effort. The Commentary then refers to a text about the Bodhisatta’s supreme effort before he attained Buddhahood. When he sat down under the Bodhi-tree he said: He would not leave his seat until he had reached Buddhahood. N: We read in the Middle Length Sayings, no 36, the Greater Discourse to Saccaka, that the Buddha spoke about his ascetical practices before he became the Sammasambuddha. He said to Aggivessana: He said that while he was doing so sweat poured from his armpits. The Commentary to the Greater Discourse to Saccaka, (partly rendered by Ven. Bodhi) gives the reasons for the Bodhisatta’s austerities before his enlightenment: to show his own exertion to the world, because the quality of invincible energy gave him joy. And also out of compassion for later generations, by inspiring them to strive with the same determination that he applied to attain Buddhahood. N: The clenching of the teeth shows the Bodhisatta’s supreme effort, but this was accompanied by paññaa of a high degree. The bhikkhu referred to in the who has to abandon his unwholesome thoughts is on the way to arahatship. This cannot be attained without right effort which has to be accompanied by paññaa. As we read in this sutta, quoted above, he should restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind. If someone just clenches his teeth with dispair or fear because he does not want to have unwholesome thoughts, it is not the right effort that must be accompanied by paññaa. ------ N: As we have seen, it is said that he should subdue akusala citta with kusala citta. The clenched teeth we read about are as it were a bodily expression to the supreme effort and determination necessary for the attainment of arahatship, just as the Bodhisatta applied supreme effort to attain Buddhahood. This effort should be accompanied by strong paññaa. These five ways are like the five weapons the teacher gave to his pupil. If one weapon was broken or lost he could use the other kind of weapon depending on the occasion that presented itself. The Co adds: When he has developed vipassanaa he shall attain arahatship. As we see, the development of vipassanaa is stressed all the time, no matter in what way one abandons unwholesome thoughts. ------ It depends on accumulations and one's status in life, monk or lay follower, what way is best to follow. Whatever one does: do not forget to be aware now, otherwise it is all in vain and one takes one's effort for self. Also akusala when it appears is an object of vipassanaa. If not, it can never be eradicated. ----- ***** Nina. #123043 From: "philip" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 8:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. philofillet - Hi Nina > > >-------- > N: I would just like to add something. Seeing, hearing etc. are > vipaakacittas, and why is Kh Sujin always speaking about these? > Becaue we have to learn to be aware of vipaakacittas so that these > will be understood as non-self, only conditioned dhammas. Yes, I meant to bring this in somehow, but was lazy. I am very interested in seeing, visible object and other pancadvaradhammas, i personally feel they are the best field for understanding to develop, and while we know seeing is vipaka, from the texts, we don't experience/cognize aeeing as vipaka, do we? Awareness of vipaka is always as a story, thinking about vipaka and so often that story is comforting . (e.g. "why am I angry at this incident, the deeds that led to it were done by myself") , very comforting to be able to let go of discontent by thinking that. I'm not saying we shouldn't do that, but we can also be aware of the seeking for that pleasant mental feeling, rooted in lobha. I know you think this is too strict, you wrote to Scott about not being so complicated, the Thais and their easygoing everyday kusala. Ok, fine, but I think there ia a time to be strict about definitions of kusala, the texts are strict after all, all those necessary factors for a moment of kusala, including alobha! But don't worry, I certainly wouldn't deprive myself of the pleasure of thinking about vipaka, anatta erc because of fear of lobha involved! And as Rob E said that think does represent "development of understanding" to some small degree at least - probably! I will leave it there Nina, thanks. Phil As you say, > mostly we are after pleasant objects, we are inclined to think about > situations with lobha, dosa and moha. We should be grateful that the > Buddha reminded us of what vipaaka really is. > ------ > Nina. > > > > > #123044 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 10:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 5-mrt-2012, om 10:48 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > And as Rob E said that thinking does represent "development of > understanding" to some small degree at least - probably! ----- N: Certainly, thinking in the correct way. This is important. It is pariyatti. I thought of you when going over passages in Survey, about seeing only the length of aplough. Remember, you tried this a long time ago? < We read in the Visuddhimagga (I, 50) about the restraint of the monk with regard to seeing: “What is proper resort as guarding? Here ‘A bhikkhu, having entered inside a house, having gone into a street, goes with downcast eyes, seeing the length of a plough yoke, restrained, not looking at an elephant, not looking at a horse, a carriage, a pedestrian, a woman, a man, not looking up, not looking down, not staring this way and that.’ This is called proper resort as guarding.” This was said to remind us not to continue the “story” after the seeing and dwell on it for a long time, thinking in various ways of this or that person or matter. When we have seen, we should know that it is only seeing. No matter whether one looks no further than the length of a plough yoke ahead or not, there is seeing and then it is gone. In that way one will not be absorbed in the outward appearance and details. Paññå can clearly understand that it is just because of thinking that we are used to seeing the outward world that is full of people. If we do not think, there is only seeing and then it is gone. Can there be many people at that moment? However, one is used to thinking for a long time, and thus one is bound to think time and again of many different subjects. In what way someone thinks, depends on the conditions that have been accumulated. People may see the same thing, but each individual thinks differently. When people see, for example, a flower, one person may like it and think it beautiful, whereas someone else may dislike it. It all depends on the individual’s thinking. Each person lives with his own thoughts, and thus, the world is in reality the world of thinking. When sati is aware of nåma and rúpa it will be clearly known that it is only a type of nåma that thinks of different subjects. If the characteristic of the nåma that thinks is clearly known, it can be understood that someone’s conception of people and beings is not real. When someone is sad and he worries, he should know that there is sadness just because of his thinking. It is the same in the case of happiness, it all occurs because of thinking. When someone sees on T.V. a story he likes, pleasant feeling arises because he thinks of the projected image he looks at. Thus, people live only in the world of thinking, no matter where they are. The world of each moment is nåma that arises and experiences an object through one of the sense-doors and through the mind-door, and after that citta continues to think of different stories.> --------- Nina. #123045 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 10:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 upasaka_howard Hi Sarah & Dieter & Nina & all - I've been "back" for a little while but just observing, and it is not my intention to do very much posting. I've rejoined mainly due to deeply missing good friends from DSG, and I am much indebted to my dear friends Nina, Sarah, and Dieter for prompting my return. (For those nonplussed by my return, fear not - you will hardly notice me. ;-) In a message dated 3/5/2012 2:54:28 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Dieter, #122813 --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , "Dieter Moeller" wrote: >D..... but we may also talk about Ven. Nyanatiloka's intro of magga: > ".. many of those who have written about the Eightfold Path have misunderstood its true nature, it is therefore appropriate to add here a few elucidating remarks about it, as this path is fundamental for the understanding and practice of the Buddha's .teaching. > > First of all, the figurative expression 'path' should not be interpreted to mean that one has to advance step by step in the sequence of the enumeration until, after successively passing through all the eight stages, one finally may reach one's destination, Nibbana. If this really were the case, one should have realized, first of all, right view and penetration of the truth, even before one could hope to proceed to the next steps, right thought and right speech; and each preceding stage would be the indispensable foundation and condition for each succeeding stage. In reality, however, the links 3-5 constituting moral training (sila), are the first 3 links to be cultivated, then the links 6-8 constituting mental training (samadhi), and at last right view, etc. constituting wisdom (pañña). ... S: Yes, I've read this description. I believe the last sentence is incorrect as the good sutta you recently posted on wrong view and right view as forerunners indicated. .... S: Continuing the quote from Ven N's dict entry: > It is, however, true that a really unshakable and safe foundation to the path is provided only by right view which, starting from the tiniest germ of faith and knowledge, gradually, step by step, develops into penetrating insight (vipassana) and thus forms the immediate condition for the entrance into the 4 supermundane paths and fruits of holiness, and for the realization of Nibbana. Only with regard to this highest form of supermundane insight, may we indeed say that all the remaining links of the path are nothing but the outcome and the accompaniments of right view. > > Regarding the mundane (lokiya) eightfold path, however, its links may arise without the first link, right view." ... S: Again, this last sentence is incorrect and a rather surprising comment here. We read in the texts that at any moment of the mundane path, there are always 5 or 6 factors arising, including samma ditthi. The reason there are 5 or 6 and not 8 is because only one of the viratis (right speech, right action, right livelihood) can arise at a time at mundane path moments. I do appreciate better why you've made the comments you have, however, Dieter, so thank you for sharing and highlighting this quote. Whilst it is a really excellent dictionary which I've relied on for over 35 years now, there are a few errors. I once pointed some of these out to B.Bodhi in case there could be any revision. However, he told me that when an author is no longer alive, the publishers cannot make amendments. Metta Sarah =================================== In the 1st sutta of the book of tens in A.N., the progression sila-->samadhi--> pa~n~na is detailed as follows: Virtuous ways of conduct -> Non-remorse -> Gladness -> Joy -> Serenity -> Happiness -> Concentration of the mind -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. I pointed this out in prior posts. I also then pointed out the following: So, the development, most traditionally expressed by the three-step sequence of sila-->samadhi--> pa~n~na, is further detailed as a complex spiral development, with no clear starting point. To simplify, the traditional 3-step progression, even without the further detailed analysis, should still be replaced by the 4-step cyclic development of sila-->samadhi--> pa~n~na -->(cycling back to) sila, and such that with each cycling through, the three factors are strengthened so that the wisdom eventually grows to the level of supermundane, liberating wisdom. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123046 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 12:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello! I'm a new member and I would like to be your story teller. yawares1 Dear Sarah and Nina, Yes,I was born and raised in Bangkok, Thailand. I did learn about Dhammapada/Jataka stories when I was in school, I truly loved them so much I always got top grade in my exams. BUT, I love and understand these stories million times more nowaday! Love to share DPD/Jataka with you, yawares --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Der Yawres (& Tep), > > --- On Mon, 5/3/12, Yawares Sastri wrote: > >Thank you for your warm welcome. Yes, Dr.Tep Sastri is my husband, that's why I get to know about both of you long before I join your group. Dr.Han Tun is also my good friend, he and Tep still run SD/JTN groups. And Tep said he've missed you and Nina too. > .... > S: Very interesting - wonderful that you both have a keen interest in the Teachings and can share good reminders. I'm sure I speak for Nina too when I say we miss our good discussions with Tep and wish you both much joy and wisdom from your Dhamma studies. > ... > >Thanks for reading my 'Jataka story'. > ... > S: Thank you for sharing the stories. Did you grow up in Thailand with familiarity with the stories? > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #123047 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 1:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello! I'm a new member and I would like to be your story teller. nilovg Dear Yawares, Op 5-mrt-2012, om 14:34 heeft Yawares Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Yes,I was born and raised in Bangkok, Thailand. I did learn about > Dhammapada/Jataka stories when I was in school, I truly loved them > so much I always got top grade in my exams. BUT, I love and > understand these stories million times more nowaday! ------ N: Thank you for your background report. Please give my best regards to your husband, wonderful you both share such interest in the Dhamma. I think of him when I come across old posts, we had many interesting discussions. It is true, when we have studied more, we see the depth of the Jataka stories. There are similar stories in the Vedic literature, but as always, the Buddha gave them a specific meaning. Looking forward to more, ----- Nina. #123048 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 1:23 am Subject: Gotama Buddha.... CONTINUE......[ by Dr.C.B. Varma, D.Litt ] yawares1 Dear Members, I would like you to see how Thai people portrait what ascetics look like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yllxkK6BW0U And I love this video very much, please allow me to share with you all. ***************** After the attainment of Enlightenment and becoming a Buddha, Gotama Budddha thought of delivering his first sermon to some receptive ascetics. So, he thought of revealing his doctrine first to Alara Kalama, who was his first guru; and who he had left because his doctrine could not satisfy him. So, he looked for Alara by his divine eye; and learnt of his death. He then thought of teaching his other guru Uddaka Ramaputta, who he had deserted because he, too, was not convincing. So, he thought of delivering the first sermon to him. But he, too, was dead. Dhamma-Chakka-Pavattana-Katha Now, he thought about his five companions with whom he had practised penances in Uruvela for six years before separating from them. (He had segregated from them after having realised that self-mortification, which was so ardently being practised by the five ascetics, was not the right path of Enlightenment). So, he looked for them by his divine eye and saw them wandering about the Isipatan Migdaya, popularly known as Deer Park, in Sarnath. Soon he reached there to deliver his first sermon. His first sermon in the history of Buddhism is often called the Dhamma-chakka-pavattana-katha, because that `sets the wheel of the dhamma into motion' (Dhamma-chakka-pavattana) to take the people to the Final Destination of life, i.e., Nibbana. When the five ascetics saw the Buddha approaching, they first decided to ignore him as he had deserted them. But having noticed his bright countenance they changed their mind and acknowledged his superiority by showing reverence to him. The Buddha then delivered his first sermon in the Isipatana Migadaya. He professed the doctrine of Four Noble Truths: **yawatube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuD2PMhni_I Suffering is a reality; Cause of the suffering (as nothing in the world is uncaused); Cessation of suffering (as the removal of the cause is logical); The path leading to the cessation of the suffering, which implies, right determination; right speech; right action; right livelihood; right effort; right mindfulness; and right meditation. This is also called the eight-fold path. The aforementioned path is also called the `Middle-Path', as it avoids the two extreme paths to realise the Goal of Life. The first of the two extreme paths is the path of the extreme sensuality and mundane pleasures; and the other is the path of self-mortification, implying rigourous and austere penances to attain the summum bonum of life. He also professed the doctrine of the Dependent Origination (Paticcha-Samuppada), which means, every worldly phenomenon is dependent on some other phenomenon. In light of the above - if there is suffering by way of old-age, disease and death and so on - it is due to the birth. If there is no birth, who would then suffer ? (It may be noted that Death is only the end of one birth; the next birth may be much worse). The birth is dependent on becoming; becoming is due to grasping; grasping is due to craving; craving is due to feeling; feeling is due to contact; contact is due to the six sense organs; the six sense organs are due to mind-body complex; mind-body complex is due to sensation; sensation is due to mental confections (samskaras) ; and mental confections are due to ignorance. In other words, he professed that ignorance is the root-cause of suffering. Soon after hearing this sermon Kondanna (popularly called Annatta-Kondanna) became a Sotapanna; and others also became the followers of the Buddha. ***************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123049 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 3:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello! I'm a new member and I would like to be your story teller. yawares1 Dear Nina, Once I had an airline instructor named 'Nina', she was so pretty(blonde/blue eyes) and very nice (I was an airline hostess for almost 8 yrs.). And my favorite perfume is NINA RICCI. And my best neighbor named 'Sarah' lives next door to mine. On this past New Year Day, a JTN member named Sarah asked me to meet her at Thai temple(WAT PA SRITHAVORN)in Houston,TX. We got along very well and had good time together. Thanks again for reading my DPD/Jataka stories, yawares --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Yawares, > Op 5-mrt-2012, om 14:34 heeft Yawares Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > Yes,I was born and raised in Bangkok, Thailand. I did learn about > > Dhammapada/Jataka stories when I was in school, I truly loved them > > so much I always got top grade in my exams. BUT, I love and > > understand these stories million times more nowaday! > ------ > N: Thank you for your background report. Please give my best regards > to your husband, wonderful you both share such interest in the > Dhamma. I think of him when I come across old posts, we had many > interesting discussions. It is true, when we have studied more, we > see the depth of the Jataka stories. There are similar stories in the > Vedic literature, but as always, the Buddha gave them a specific > meaning. Looking forward to more, > ----- > Nina. > > > > > #123050 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 4:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it)s. moellerdieter Dear Nina , Howard, all, just between: you wrote: '... people live only in the world of thinking' I just considered a comment I stumbled upon recenty : " When you are experiencing something directly without thinking about it, that's paramattha." Sounds good to me .. the Bahiya sutta (wellcome back, Howard ;-) comes into my mind (excerpt , tranl. by Thanissaro Bhikkhu): 'A third time, Bahiya said to the Blessed One: "But it is hard to know for sure what dangers there may be for the Blessed One's life, or what dangers there may be for mine. Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." I am sure you know the text . Of special interest here 'When there is no you there ' which means no volition /kamma , and I assume that we all have had the experience of such moments of awareness , though not often. These are moments when we have no intention at all , being not thirsty. There is a nice saying in German : Ruhe der reinen Betrachtung: 'Wenn das Begehren schweigt, der Wille zur Ruhe kommt , tritt die Welt als Vorstellung in Erscheinung' (Wilhelm /Schopenhauer). Roughly in English: Quiteness of pure cognition(i.e. awareness) : when the longing is silent, the will gets some peace , the world appears as representation . ''When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." ( i.e. anatta not only temporarily ..) We know that our attachments/fetters keeps us between . So what means 'That is how your should train yourself' ? At a proper time, I think the Buddha would have refered to : sila , samadhi, panna .. and suppose , you are sure that could be only Satipatthana! ;-) with Metta Dieter #123051 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2012 11:46 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob E., R: "...But I was using experiencing in this case as having the correct perspective, not experiencing a dhamma in the moment...." Scott: The dhamma itself, if it is naama, 'experiences' (functions in relation to an object) - there is no 'experiencing a dhamma in the moment' unless you wish to invoke another conceptual entity which does that 'experiencing.' This has been done already, mind you, and is known as Self. Scott. #123052 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 7:06 am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 truth_aerator Dear Nina, Thank you for your reply. However the main point stands, that intentional effort is required. The suttas and the commentary agree on this. Of course the strenuous effort has to be right, I've never denied this. With metta, Alex #123053 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 7:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it)s. upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Nina) - In a message dated 3/5/2012 12:45:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Dear Nina , Howard, all, just between: you wrote: '... people live only in the world of thinking' I just considered a comment I stumbled upon recenty : " When you are experiencing something directly without thinking about it, that's paramattha." Sounds good to me .. the Bahiya sutta (wellcome back, Howard ;-) ------------------------------------------------ Thanks, Dieter! It's good to be here. :-) ------------------------------------------------ comes into my mind (excerpt , tranl. by Thanissaro Bhikkhu) =================================== Yes, that fits nicely. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123054 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 12:24 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > (122822) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: There is no correlation between the gaining of enlightenment and the giving up of the household life. The household life can be given up at any time before enlightenment or even before the development of the path begins. So in many cases there will be no perceptible change in conventional behaviour . > > > > RE: But in any case it *must* cease for the arahant if it has not been previously given up? Why is that, if it is merely a change in conventional lifestyle? Does it not reflect the culmination of certain accumulations and tendencies? > > =============== > > J: Yes, if we are talking about the 4 stages of enlightenment, then at each stage there is the eradication of certain kinds and levels of akusala and, correspondingly, the eradication of certain inherent (accumulated) tendencies. My point, as usual, is that if a certain stage is reached at which certain tendencies have been eradicated, and that entails a change in conventional behavior - whatever other contingencies may be involved - it means that there is indeed a correspondence between the dhammas that do or don't arise and the conventional behavior that will no longer take place. If there were no relation at all between the dhammas of the sotapanna and the householder's life, which is conventional, then there would not be any necessary change in the conventional behavior. That is just logical. The obvious conclusion is that the change in dhammas that attends the sotapanna stage is expressed in certain conventional changes. The abstentions that take place on the dhamma level when certain defilements have been eradicated are expressed in conventional abstentions as well. Is there any other way to see this? > Of course, the extent to which the attainment of a particular stage will be followed by a noticeable change conventional lifestyle will depend very much on the conventional lifestyle being lived just before attaining that stage. It is entirely possible that some of the accumulated akusala tendencies being eradicated had not in any event manifested at all within that same lifetime. That may be true, and will only apply if the conventional behavior involved happened not to manifest for whatever reasons. It does not change the formulaic truth that at stage 'a,' conventional behavior 'a' will no longer manifest. > > =============== > > > J: There is no specific 'certain degree of kusala' that is necessary before the development of kusala of the level of understanding begins. Such a notion was never mentioned in the suttas. ... > J: There is already, for all of us, previously accumulated understanding (otherwise we'd not be interested in the teachings). It's a matter of the factors that condition the manifesting (or re-arising) of those accumulated tendencies. Are you saying that there is no new development, but only the re-arising of previous accumulations? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, but I am probably misinterpreting what you said. > > =============== > > RE: That doesn't really resolve the issue of what a firm resolve not to kill insects represents in terms of development and understanding. Do you feel it has no relation to the path at all? > > =============== > > J: A 'resolve to do (or not do)' something is just a kind of thinking (unless of course it is the product of panna). As such it may be conditioned by kusala, by akusala or by a combination of both. > > The (unfortunate) truth is, I think, that most instances of deliberate resolve are likely to be driven either by wanting to be a better person or by the belief that they are a necessary or desirable part of the development of the path. What if it is the product of panna? It is still difficult for me to understand how panna which arises in relation to a dhamma would affect cetana that is directed towards a conventional being. Can you help me clarify this? "Not killing an insect" is directed towards a being. How does this occur on the dhamma level? ... > J: Such "permanent changes" only occur at supra-mundane path moments -- the moment of attainment of each of the 4 stages of enlightenment. > > > =============== > > RE: What is it about the sotapanna that does make it impossible to fall back? > > =============== > > J: The eradication of all wrong view about dhammas. Not to overdo the point, but, this looks like: stage of enlightenment ---> changes in conventional behavior, as well as eradication of certain akusala cetasikas that will no longer arise. If the sotapanna and others above this point cannot "fall back" in terms of conventional behaviors, what does this say about the relationship between kusala dhammas and such conventional behaviors? > > =============== > > > J: the 'understanding of anatta, etc.' and the 'kusala qualities of insight, etc.' are one and the same thing, so one cannot speak of one as being the prerequisite for the other. > > > > RE: There is still a necessary degree of kusala before that degree of understanding can take place. Is that not so? > > =============== > > J: As mentioned above, there is already some accumulated understanding, but it can only manifest, or develop further, under the right conditions. I would just say again that right understanding of any level is kusala, and therefore I think it is fair to say that while any dhamma, kusala or akusala, can be the object of understanding, right understanding at that moment is always kusala. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #123055 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 12:33 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: ...As long as we are not hungry meditators seeking insight we're probably ok, well, no chouce in the matter, we will think about Dhamma, or we won't, and this will help develop deeper understanding, or it won't. Nothing we can do to predict or speed the process. > > But the earnest meditators, they are doomed, until they get free. That's how I understand "experiential", Scott, not "experience dhammas" which can be a synonym for cognize. No, it's the meditators who take their "insights" during meditation and come up eith theories based on their experience to rewrite Dhamma in light of their experience, for example a certain someone and his spirals and whirlpool metaphors and "fuzzy" dhammas and so on. That's the experientialism that gets people in trouble, it prevents them from accepting the Dhamma as taught in the texts, makes them believe that any difference between their understanding of the Dhamma and the texts is due to shortcomings in the latter which is clearly pretty nutty. With respect, I literally don't think you know what you're talking about. Unless you have some clarity on what the body of meditators are really doing or claiming, which you clearly don't, what you say above is just nonsense. I know you enjoy, along with some others, going into a rant about the evils of meditation, but it is not based on anything real. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #123056 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 12:53 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > (122822) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: To put that another way, why would a person who had developed, by direct experience, a clearer understanding of dhammas as they truly are seek to confirm that development by reference to conventional acts? > > > > RE: I guess they wouldn't have to, but that wouldn't stop those dhammas from being expressed in conventional life as well, if that were the case. Refraining from killing, abandoning the household life at some point, if that takes place, etc., may reflect stages of development of understanding. It may be that there's no necessary relationship between understanding dhammas and conventional patterns of action. Still, it's hard to imagine someone with advanced understanding hanging around the bar getting drunk or kicking the dog for fun, or trying to trick people out of their money in a confidence racket. Do you disagree? > > =============== > > J: There are instances in the suttas to the contrary. For example, Angulimaala, who had developed understanding to such an advanced stage in previous lives that he was ready for enlightenment, committed murder in his final life (this of course was before he had heard the teaching in that final life). Well, it seems like your parenthetical is pretty important there - since it means the necessary conditions for enlightenment had not occurred. Perhaps his accumulated understanding had not yet been activated by conditions as well...?...in order for him to commit such an act. I think we would agree that after reaching a full stage of enlightenment with all the ingredients in place, [such as hearing the Dhamma - sort of basic,] no one would then commit murder, even in the odd case like this one. > As regards good sila and good behaviour generally, this is by no means exclusive to persons of advanced understanding. Well the point is not whether non-sotappanas can be capable of "good behavior," but whether the inverse is true - that sotapannas and up *can* be capable of "bad" behaviors, and the answer to that is no. That is the point. If someone happens to be especially "good" in some area, then that is fine for them, but that doesn't make them enlightened. On the other hand, the enlightened will have *all* the necessary ingredients, both in nama and rupa, to meet the requirements of that level of release and eradication of defilements. This does suggest that while some people *may* be "good," the sotapanna *must* be good. He couldn't kill an insect even if he wanted to - :-) - [which he wouldn't.] I found a quote from Rob K. on the sotapanna: "What they can never do is go back to having wrong view, nor can they ever drink alcohol or lie or steal or kill even an ant. They can never take any other teacher than the Buddha, and they value the triple gem above all things. They give freely as they have eliminated stinginess." So we have a list of conventional actions that the sotapanna can or cannot engage in. Again, there is an obvious connection between the elimination of the defilements on the level of dhammas and the expression of this in conventional actions and abstentions. There is no example that contradicts this association, is there? > So I don't think there is any correlation to be drawn, except at the post-enlightenment stage. But that is still a stage and then there is a correlation. So what does that demonstrate? It demonstrates that there is some association between the defilements, which are on the level of dhammas, and what can and cannot be expressed in conventional actions. It's pretty clear. > > =============== > > RE: If this sort of thing does not take place, there must be some sort of connection between understanding of dhammas and "improved" conventional behavior. I know you may not think that such a correlation is important, and maybe it's not, but I would be interested in your view of whether it does or does not in fact take place, since it seems obvious to me that it does. > > =============== > > J: As regards a possible connection between understanding of dhammas and "improved" conventional behaviour, I would expect this to be the experience of most of us here. > > But I don't think there is any *necessary* link. And I certainly don't think that an improvement in conventional behaviour can be taken as confirming that there has been the (correct) development of the path. > > For one thing, improvement in conventional behaviour tends to come with greater maturity anyway (as pt recently pointed out to Lukas). > > And Phil has reported that his morning 'reflections' on matters unrelated to the teaching on dhammas result in a kinder, gentle Phil for the day :-)) That is why it only lasted for a day. :-) I doubt we can find an example of an ordinary person who *never* falls back in all the areas which a sotapanna expresses, as the sotapanna does. We may not be able to prove someone is a sotapanna by their good behavior, but we *can* tell a non-sotapanna by any instance of killing or other permanently eradicated tendencies. Therefore the connection between conventional behavior and dhammas is not only established, but is part of the lexicon of enlightenment. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #123057 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 1:10 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > R: "...But I was using experiencing in this case as having the correct perspective, not experiencing a dhamma in the moment...." > > Scott: The dhamma itself, if it is naama, 'experiences' (functions in relation to an object) - there is no 'experiencing a dhamma in the moment' unless you wish to invoke another conceptual entity which does that 'experiencing.' This has been done already, mind you, and is known as Self. You're inventing this distinction which is not in what I said or meant. Nama "experiences" a dhamma. "not experiencing a dhamma in the moment" is speaking about the same exact thing. You have now gone from parsing expressions to parsing tenses of speech on a hair-splitting, imaginary level. It's clear what I'm talking about - I'm clarifying that my original post was about correct thinking, not about direct experience of a dhamma. You can get that point without inventively dissecting every individual word. - Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #123058 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 1:12 pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > Thank you for your reply. However the main point stands, that intentional effort is required. The suttas and the commentary agree on this. Of course the strenuous effort has to be right, I've never denied this. How does right effort and right cetana occur? Do you agree that they are mental factors that arise in the moment without any self willing them to occur? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #123059 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 12:50 pm Subject: Rejoice! bhikkhu5 Friends: How is the Mental Release by Mutual Joy? The Blessed Buddha once explained: How is the release of mind by infinite mutual joy (Muditâ ) achieved? What does this liberation have as its destination, what is its culmination, what is its sweet fruit, and what is the ultimate goal of mental release by universally mutual, unselfish, altruistic, appreciative & rejoicing joy? Here, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu dwells pervading the frontal quadrant with a mind imbued with infinite mutual joy, so the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quadrant. As above, so below, across, and everywhere to all beings as for himself, he dwells pervading the entire cosmos with a mind fully saturated with unlimited mutual joy, immense, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without any enmity, without any trace of ill will, of jealousy or of envy! Thus prepared and mentally quite expanded, he then develops: 1: The Awareness Link to Awakening joined with limitless mutual joy. 2: The Investigation Link to Awakening fused with such mutual joy. 3: The Energy Link to Awakening together with infinite mutual joy. 4: The Joy Link to Awakening accompanied with absolute mutual joy. 5: The Tranquillity Link to Awakening linked with noble mutual joy. 6: The Concentration Link to Awakening associated with mutual joy. 7: The Equanimity Link to Awakening joined with endless mutual joy. Based upon seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, and culminating in release... If he then wishes: May I dwell experiencing repulsion by any attractive & tempting object, then he can dwell experiencing repulsiveness therein. If he wishes: May I dwell experiencing the unrepulsive in any disgusting and repulsive object, then he experiences pleasing beauty in whatever disgusting & ugly thing! If he wishes: Avoiding both the repulsive & the unrepulsive, may I dwell in equanimity , just aware & clearly comprehending, then he experiences equanimity , just aware and clearly comprehending! When meditating he can completely transcend the realm of infinitude of space, only aware that consciousness is infinite, he can enter and dwell in the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness.. I tell you Bhikkhus for a quite wise Bhikkhu here, who has not yet penetrated to an even more superior mental release, the mental release by infinite, altruistic and mutual joy has the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness as its culmination! <...> Comments: Are you Discontent? Here is Why! Mutual joy is the proximate cause of contentment. Consequentially: Lack of mutual joy produces frustrated discontent! Mutual joy also eliminates jealousy and envy! Absence of mutual joy therefore induces the acid like mental pain called envy and jealousy! Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikâya. Book [V: 115-21] 46: The Links. 54: Joined by Friendliness... Rejoice! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #123060 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 1:52 pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 truth_aerator Hi RobertE, all, >How does right effort and right cetana occur? Do you agree that they >are mental factors that arise in the moment without any self willing >them to occur? >========================================== Yes, right effort and cetana is anatta and occur due to conditions. We need look past red-herring. Description of how action occurs does not deny that action occurs. Conditionality does not deny action. If a young kid wants to build muscle than simply saying "leave it to conditions" will not work. What he will need to do is to train right at the gym, eat right, recuperate. Learning what to do is important, but not enough. Of course building muscle is fully conditioned. But this fact does not deny action. Quite the opposite. If it wasn't conditioned, one couldn't set any conditions for it to occur. Same principle in practicing martial arts, etc. Same, IMHO, with mental cultivation except that right effort is done with the mind. Maybe in order to suppress a negative state, an effort is required rather than waiting for conditions to play them out. Maybe conditions manifest as producing intentional effort now at avoiding bad and doing good. Know what I mean? Of course one should do the best one can in the conditions that one is in. One doesn't reject the other. Also the root defilement is ignorance (1st link of DO) and it has nothing to do with Self Views. It is about 4NT. Views of Self are a distant manifestation of ignorance as clinging (9th link in DO). As I see, meditation is great at seeing 4NT. Moreover it helps to retrain the mind in the proper direction. Perhaps proper behaviour is like a skill that is learned through repetition, repetition, and more repetition. If a person wants to dance well, then one needs to practice the moves over and over again until it becomes certain nature. As I've said, maybe the "intentional effort now" is how conditions manifest themselves now, but in the actual in the moment effort is required. Little by little the mind will learn to incline in kusala way and eventually critical mass will be reached where it cannot go back. With best wishes, Alex #123061 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 1:24 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. scottduncan2 Rob E., Your stated and persistent project is to establish a concrete link between 'conventional behaviour' and dhammas. This project is based on the wish to establish the way in which someone can 'experience' dhammas and thereby gauge whether or not what he or she does can contribute to this 'experience' or how this 'experience' can validate these behaviours. Show me that this is not the case. Scott. #123062 From: "philip" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 3:31 pm Subject: Delisting announcement #9 philofillet Hi all DSG is obviously a list where a broad range of ideas about Dhamma is not only toletarated, but solicitated by the moderators. Obviously that is healthy psychologically and is obviously nice and tolerant. But I feel the list doesn't serve the interests of those (Me,Me,ME!) who want to discuss Dhamma in light of Abhidhamma and commentary without a lot of dealing with debate based on facile cut and paste sutta passage tossing. I really don't think the purpose of Dhamma discussion is to exercise persuasion across the borders of opposing camps but that is what DSG must be. Obviously that suits people, or the list would collapse under the weight of all its meditators (some of whom might actually meditate!) I will stick to listening to the talks where a correct understanding of Dhamma always is dominant and next year after studying Dhs. and Atth. will maybe have a try at starting a discussion based on them. But for now I intend to delist for real. I'm going to pass Howard by a mile and perhaps even reach Teppian/Joopian/Jamesian delisting greatness! (Though I have a feeling Tep is on his way back!) Phil #123063 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 4:14 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Rob E., > > Your stated and persistent project is to establish a concrete link between 'conventional behaviour' and dhammas. Among many other things, I am interested in the relationship between conventional behavior and dhammas, lately with particular regard to accumulations and eradication of the defilements. It is not the only thing I am interested in, or am trying to learn about. So your statement, "stated and persistent project" as if it is my sole purpose is incorrect and overemphasized. > This project is based on the wish to establish the way in which someone can 'experience' dhammas Not sure specifically what you mean by that. > and thereby gauge whether or not what he or she does can contribute to this 'experience' Not sure about this - not the way I would put it: your idea. > or how this 'experience' can validate these behaviours. I wouldn't put it that way, but except for your weird continuing emphasis on "experience" as some sort of central wrong word, I do think that conventional changes in behavior can reflect changes in accumulations and tendencies on the dhamma level. This is based on specific things that are said in the scriptures, not on my personal agenda. > Show me that this is not the case. It is the case in the way I have followed and explained it in my own posts, not in the generalized and overemphasized way that you have paraphrased and summarized it, which puts emphasis on your own particular prejudices, including the repeated dissection of the imaginary use of the word "experience" to mean what you want it to mean. I think you should stop following people around trying to dissect their hidden intentions and stick to the issues that are raised in posts. You can disagree with what someone says or offer your own view of things without personalizing. But you don't seem to enjoy yourself unless you are chasing people around with your nose deeply buried in their supposed hidden agendas. Rob E. = = = = = = = = #123064 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 4:20 pm Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #9 epsteinrob Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi all > > DSG is obviously a list where a broad range of ideas about Dhamma is not only toletarated, but solicitated by the moderators. Obviously that is healthy psychologically and is obviously nice and tolerant. But I feel the list doesn't serve the interests of those (Me,Me,ME!) who want to discuss Dhamma in light of Abhidhamma and commentary without a lot of dealing with debate based on facile cut and paste sutta passage tossing. I really don't think the purpose of Dhamma discussion is to exercise persuasion across the borders of opposing camps but that is what DSG must be. Obviously that suits people, or the list would collapse under the weight of all its meditators (some of whom might actually meditate!) The simple way to handle this is to just skip the posts that annoy you or don't interest you. But, like Scott, you are not content unless everyone else is doing what you want them to do -- no control issues there -- and so you have to keep your nose way up everyone's business telling them how screwed up they are so you can sleep at night. Why you have to read all the posts you don't like and then harp on them over and over again to the distraction of those who want to focus on "Dhamma issues" is beyond me. You seem more interested in the purity of the list then discussing any legitimate subjects! But I guess you can't help but be a permanently discontented critic-at-large instead of discussing anything, so maybe you are right to leave and control the input you get by only listening to the tapes of those you already agree with. Have a nice trip, and if you come back to make more announcements about how you're unhappy and you're leaving I will think you are addicted to bothering people, and are not really interested in the Dhamma at all. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #123065 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 9:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it)s. nilovg Dear Dieter, Howard, I join Dieter, it is good to have Howard back. His post was a condition to consider more siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa, because it is a complex subject and there are many aspects to it. Nina. Op 5-mrt-2012, om 21:09 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Dieter: I just considered a comment I stumbled upon recenty : > " When you are experiencing something directly without thinking > about it, > that's paramattha." > Sounds good to me .. the Bahiya sutta (wellcome back, Howard ;-) #123066 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 9:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 nilovg Dear Alex, Op 5-mrt-2012, om 21:06 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Thank you for your reply. However the main point stands, that > intentional effort is required. The suttas and the commentary agree > on this. Of course the strenuous effort has to be right, I've never > denied this. ------- N: Intentional effort, yes, but it is a cetasika, not a self who has this. I do not see the problem here. ----- Nina. #123067 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 10:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bahiyasutta, was:'Give me a quote' nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 5-mrt-2012, om 18:45 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > Sounds good to me .. the Bahiya sutta (wellcome back, Howard ;-) > comes into > my mind (excerpt , tranl. by Thanissaro Bhikkhu): > > ...."Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to > the seen, > there will be only the seen. then, Bahiya, there is no you in > terms of > that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. > When > there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between > the two. > This, just this, is the end of stress." > > I am sure you know the text . Of special interest here 'When there > is no > you there ' which means no volition /kamma , > --------- N: No akusala. There are several more aspects as you will see. I quote an old post from the Co. to the Udana translated by Peter Masefield: From the Udana (#10, Baahiya, Masefield transl): ..... “Therefore, Baahiya, you should so train yourself that with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen, that with respect to the heard there will be merely the heard.......cognised.....” ..... The additional commentary (transl by Masefield, PTS): ..... “ ‘With respect to the seen....merely the seen (di.t.the di.t.thamatta.m)’: with respect to a sight-base (ruupaayatane) (there will be) merely that seen by means of eye-consciousness......eye- consciousness, with respect to form (ruupe), beholds mere form (ruupa.m) alone..... It is of the extent seen (di.t.thamatta.m) since it has the extent seen (di.t.thamatta), meaning the thought process will be of the same extent as seeing-consciousness. This is what is said: 'Just as eye- consciousness is not excited, is not blemished, is not deluded, with respect to the form that has gone into its range, so there will be for me and impulsion of the same extent as eye-consciousness in which lust and so on are absent, I will set up an impulsion of the same measure as eye-consciousness.' " N: The words 'I will set up' should be rightly understood, there is no self who does this. Further on the co states:,...occurring (as they do) in accordance with conditions, being solely and merely dhammas; there is, in this connection, neither a doer nor one who causes things to be done...> The process is not broken off, but the javanas (impulsion) are without lobha, dosa or moha. He is aware of visible object as just a conditioned dhamma, he is not infatuated. ------ Note: there is neither a doer nor one who causes things to be done... Further on in the commentary the three ways of full comprehension have been explained and this covers the full range of vipassanaa: full understanding as the known (~naata pari~n~na), full understanding as contemplation (tirana pari~n~na) and full understanding as abandoning (pahana pari~n~na). It is explained that Bahiya will not be attached, by way of craving, conceit and wrong view thinking "This is mine, this I am, this is for me the self"... N: You see that there are many aspects to this text. > > D: We know that our attachments/fetters keeps us between . So what > means > 'That is how your should train yourself' ? > At a proper time, I think the Buddha would have refered to : sila , > samadhi, panna .. and suppose , you are sure that could be only > Satipatthana! ;-) > > ---------- > N: Again, many aspects, this will be in another post. Nina. #123068 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 10:22 pm Subject: The story of Uruvela-Kassapa [ Edited from Palikanon.com ] yawares1 Dear Members, This Tuesday, I have a nice story to share with you all. ************* Uruvela-Kassapa One of three brothers, the Tebhātika-Jatilas, living at Uruvelā. He lived on the banks of the Nerañjarā with five hundred disciples. Further down the river lived his brothers Nadī-Kassapa with three hundred disciples and Gayā-Kassapa with two hundred. The Buddha visited Uruvela-Kassapa and took lodging for the night where the sacred fire was kept, in spite of Kassapa's warning that the spot was inhabited by a fierce Nāga. The Buddha, by his magical powers, overcame, first this Nāga and then another, both of whom vomited fire and smoke. Kassapa being pleased with this exhibition of iddhi-power, undertook to provide the Buddha with his daily food. Meanwhile the Buddha stayed in a grove near by, waiting for the time when Kassapa should be ready for conversion. Here he was visited by the Four Regent Gods, Sakka, Brahma and others. The Buddha spent the whole rainy season there, performing, in all, three thousand five hundred miracles of various kinds, reading the thoughts of Kassapa, splitting firewood for the ascetics' sacrifices, heating stoves for them to use after bathing in the cold weather, etc. Still Kassapa persisted in the thought, "The great ascetic is of great magic power, but he is not an arahant like me." Finally the Buddha decided to startle him by declaring that he was not an arahant, neither did the way he followed lead to arahantship. Thereupon Kassapa owned defeat and reverently asked for ordination. The Buddha asked him to consult with his pupils, and they cut off their hair and threw it with their sacrificial utensils into the river and were all ordained. Nadī-Kassapa and Gayā-Kassapa came to inquire what had happened, and they, too, were ordained with their pupils. At Gayāsīsa the Buddha preached to them the Fire Sermon (āditta-pariyāya), and they all attained arahantship. From Gayāsīsa the Buddha went to Rājagaha with the Kassapas and their pupils, and in the presence of Bimbisāra and the assembled populace Uruvela-Kassapa declared his allegiance to the Buddha. Later, in the assembly of monks, Uruvela-Kassapa was declared to be the "etadagga" by the Buddha for being foremost in having large followings. NOTE****Uruvela-Kassapa was so called partly to distinguish him from other Kassapas and partly because he was ordained at Uruvela. At first he had one thousand followers, and after he was ordained by the Buddha all his followers stayed with him and each of them ordained a great number of others, so that their company became very numerous --------- Uruvela-Gassapa's past lives: In the time of Padumuttara Buddha he was a householder, and having seen the Buddha declare a monk (Sīhaghosa was his name), to be the best of them with large followings, wished for himself to be so honoured in a future life, and did many works of merit towards that end. Later, he was born in the family of Phussa Buddha as his younger step-brother, his father being Mahinda. (According to Bu.xix.14, Phussa's father was Jayasena). He had two other brothers. The three quelled a frontier disturbance and, as a reward, obtained the right to entertain the Buddha for three months. They appointed three of their ministers to make all the arrangements and they themselves observed the ten precepts. The three ministers so appointed were, in this Buddha era, Bimbisāra, Visākha and Ratthapāla. Having sojourned among gods and men, the three brothers, in their last birth, were born in a brahmin family, the name of which was Kassapa. They learnt the three Vedas and left the household life. According to the Mahā-Nārada-Kassapa Jātaka, Uruvela-Kassapa was once born as Angati, king of Mithilā in the Videha country. He listened to the teachings of a false teacher called Guna and gave himself up to pleasure, till he was saved by his wise daughter Rujā, with the help of the Brahma Nārada, who was the Bodhisatta. ******************************* Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123069 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 11:10 pm Subject: Beautiful pictures of Emerald Buddha in Thailand yawares1 Dear Members, Emerald Buddha in Bangkok and More!! Please click: http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1159&bih=510&q=emerald\ \ +buddha+bangkok&gbv=2&oq=emerald+buddha&aq=1&aqi=g7gS3&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=4814l\ \ 17648l0l20548l14l14l0l4l4l0l195l1053l5.5l10l0 For you all, yawares #123070 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 11:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 3/5/2012 8:33:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: But the earnest meditators, they are doomed, until they get free. That's how I understand "experiential", Scott, not "experience dhammas" which can be a synonym for cognize. No, it's the meditators who take their "insights" during meditation and come up eith theories based on their experience to rewrite Dhamma in light of their experience, for example a certain someone and his spirals and whirlpool metaphors and "fuzzy" dhammas and so on. --------------------------------------------- HCW: I'm not a fool, Phil, and I do recognize insults when I read them. Unfortunately, there seems to be no kindness in you. ---------------------------------------------- That's the experientialism that gets people in trouble, it prevents them from accepting the Dhamma as taught in the texts, makes them believe that any difference between their understanding of the Dhamma and the texts is due to shortcomings in the latter which is clearly pretty nutty. ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123071 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 6, 2012 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/6/2012 7:14:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, Phil - In a message dated 3/5/2012 8:33:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, _epsteinrob@..._ (mailto:epsteinrob@...) writes: But the earnest meditators, they are doomed, until they get free. ... ============================== I didn't make it clear in my post that you were quoting Phil. Sorry if anyone is confused by my omission. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123072 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2012 4:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Sarah, D: Sarah, that is your interpretation , but the sutta doesn't say so ... ..... S: We need to read any sutta in the light of the entire Tipitaka, in the light of the Satipatthana Sutta, for example, in the light of the Abhidhamma and commentaries. D: or in the light of the so-called conventional teaching and the supramundane one , to which both the Buddha refered . S:As Nina already clarified, the commentary makes it clear, the two kinds of right view referred to here are "right view of insight investigating conditioned dhammas as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa, and right view of the path arising as a consequence of insight and effects the eradication of defilements." D: the two truths refer here to the Worldling and to the disciple of the Noble Order. -------- Nina: "This does not lead to the end of the cycle, but to happy rebirth. As Sarah explained, anusayas have not been eradicated. commentary: right view of insight (vipassanaa sammaa-di.t.thi) understands wrong view as an object by penetrating its characteristics of impermanence, etc. It is also called the precursor of right view that is supramundane, lokuttara. D:there is mundane right view , leadin to happy rebirth , and there is supramundane right view where the the (Holy ) Noble Path is developed (max. of 7 rebirthes ) "The Co. distinguishes five kinds of sammaa-di.t.thi: vipassanaa sammaa-di.t.thi, kammasakataa sammaa-di.t.thi (understanding kamma and vipaaka), magga sammaa-di.t.thi, phala sammaa-di.t.thi, paccavekkhana sammaa-di.t.thi (reviewing knowledge after the lokuttara cittas have fallen away).------- "N: When one reads about kamma and result, such as, there is mother and father, spontaneously reborn beings, etc. one may wonder why there are these notions of conventional truth. They are just pointing out kamma and vipaaka, cause and result. They occur in our ordinary daily life and one may have wrong understanding or right understanding about them. Kammasakataa ~naa.na is occuring from the first stage of tender insight on. It pertains to insight." D: I do not ' wonder why there are these notions of conventional truth ' ... Noble Ones have been Worldlings too. It is the conventional teaching, which guides us through daily life , this understanding may lead to the supramundane .. .... S: Whatever we read in the suttas, we can be sure it is referring to the development of insight of realities. This is the mundane right understanding referred to, not our usual, conventional ideas about "mother, father" and so on. D: objection, Sarah. I doubt that you will find support by anyone with a fair knowledge of the Sutta Pitaka for such statement. .... > D: I am not sure about the Pali orginal here for 'effluents' ... S: It is 'aasavas'. When the anusayas have not been eradicated, there are bound to be the arising of ordinary kilesas, 'intoxicants', asavas. So they are closely connected. D: the distinguishment of terms is often difficult , many synonyms.. moha and avijja for example , both delusive but the former is -as far as I know - not used as 'not knowing the 4 Noble Truth' , whereas moha is part of that in particular concerning self delusion . >D: Nevertheless right view without effluents means here the base for developing the ( links of the supramundane) Noble Path ,i.e. for those not yet having achieved Arahatship . I think we agree here .... S: "Without effluents', means no condition for their arising because the respective anusayas have been eradicated by the magga cittas at the various stages of enlightenment. D: so we don't ? with Metta Dieter S: p.s re the dancing - may not be the most elegant, but I think we're used to each other as 'partners' and no serious accidents:) D: certainly not ... ;-) #123073 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2012 4:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi Sarah & Dieter & Nina & all - > > I've been "back" for a little while but just observing, and it is not > my intention to do very much posting. I've rejoined mainly due to deeply > missing good friends from DSG, and I am much indebted to my dear friends > Nina, Sarah, and Dieter for prompting my return. (For those nonplussed by my > return, fear not - you will hardly notice me. ;-) I've missed you a lot, and I'm very glad you are back, whether posting or just hanging out! Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #123074 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2012 4:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter DearSarah (Howard), you wrote: In reality, however, the links 3-5 constituting moral training (sila), are the first 3 links to be cultivated, then the links 6-8 constituting mental training (samadhi), and at last right view, etc. constituting wisdom (pañña). ... S: Yes, I've read this description. I believe the last sentence is incorrect as the good sutta you recently posted on wrong view and right view as forerunners indicated. .... S: Continuing the quote from Ven N's dict entry: It is, however, true that a really unshakable and safe foundation to the path is provided only by right view which, starting from the tiniest germ of faith and knowledge, gradually, step by step, develops into penetrating insight (vipassana) and thus forms the immediate condition for the entrance into the 4 supermundane paths and fruits of holiness, and for the realization of Nibbana. Only with regard to this highest form of supermundane insight, may we indeed say that all the remaining links of the path are nothing but the outcome and the accompaniments of right view. > Regarding the mundane (lokiya) eightfold path, however, its links may arise without the first link, right view." ... S: Again, this last sentence is incorrect and a rather surprising comment here. We read in the texts that at any moment of the mundane path, there are always 5 or 6 factors arising, including samma ditthi. D: the point which Ven :Nyanatiloka emphases is that right view 'starting from the tiniest germ of faith and knowledge, gradually, step by step, develops into penetrating insight (vipassana)' , i.e. to the perfection of view. If you understand 'samma ditthi ' of the perfected level , "the links may arise without the first link, right view." Why are you surprised ? S:the reason there are 5 or 6 and not 8 is because only one of the viratis (right speech, right action, right livelihood) can arise at a time at mundane path moments. D: you are talking about the moment , the Venerable about 'in time' S:I do appreciate better why you've made the comments you have, however, Dieter, so thank you for sharing and highlighting this quote. Whilst it is a really excellent dictionary which I've relied on for over 35 years now, there are a few errors. I once pointed some of these out to B.Bodhi in case there could be any revision. However, he told me that when an author is no longer alive, the publishers cannot make amendments. D: perhaps B.Bodhi considered that to be the easiest way out avoiding discussion ? ;-) with Metta Dieter #123075 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 7, 2012 4:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/6/2012 12:17:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi Sarah & Dieter & Nina & all - > > I've been "back" for a little while but just observing, and it is not > my intention to do very much posting. I've rejoined mainly due to deeply > missing good friends from DSG, and I am much indebted to my dear friends > Nina, Sarah, and Dieter for prompting my return. (For those nonplussed by my > return, fear not - you will hardly notice me. ;-) I've missed you a lot, and I'm very glad you are back, whether posting or just hanging out! ------------------------------------------------- HCW: Thanks so much! :-) --------------------------------------------- Best, Rob E. =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123076 From: "colette_aube" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2012 7:13 am Subject: Re: Bad mood, feeling low colette_aube Scott, luckily I had lunch at the soup kitchen a little while ago, so reading your rationale can't really make my head spin any faster than it already is from having lunch with some "real winners". I'm gonna ignore the gobblety-goop and go straight for the juggular vein. > Scott: I don't believe in the computer analogy. I contend that no matter what one *wants* to 'implement,' things will unfold only as they will. One might believe in LINEAR THOUGHT (or in NONLINEAR THOUGHT for that matter) and neither belief will have any effect on what IS. colette: WOW, THAT IS OUT THERE SOMEWHERE, LOST IN SPACE, I guess. Why do I see, in my mind's eye, the picture of the astranuat murdered by the HAL 9000 computer in the movie 2001 A SPACE ODDYSEE? You're just floating there, in space, propelled somewhere and your little tiny space ship is following you but will never catch up to you. After reading your thoughts I ponder what the point of life is for any living being because you've just told them that nothing they do and nothing that they think will have any difference on the life that they are forced to live. That some person or some divinity hands out lives and hands out scripts, to an endless line of dependents and they have no choice about the script they are handed or the life they are handed. BUT WAIT, anybody that studies the Abhidharma would surely contend and say that CORRUPTION can change things. The student of the Abhidharma can firmly say that THE CORRUPT will only CORRUPT because that is the only behavior they can perform and are comfortable performing. Now I'll consider taking a shot at your other misdirection stuff. toodles, colette (p.s. luv that line about those who live in the vien search for LUBRICATION) #123077 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2012 9:14 am Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #9 kenhowardau Hi all, In my opinion DSG should *not* be considered first and foremost a social club. It might be secondly a social club, but first and foremost it is a place where we learn about dhammas. If someone is spoiling our cosy chat (by talking about things we don't want to talk about) are we really experiencing a "someone"? Or are we ultimately experiencing the presently arisen dhamma-arammana (visible object, perhaps)? Not only DSG but everywhere in daily life should be considered first and foremost a place for learning about dhammas. Dhammas first and worldly concerns second, it's the only way. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi all > > DSG is obviously a list where a broad range of ideas about Dhamma is not only toletarated, but solicitated by the moderators. Obviously that is healthy psychologically and is obviously nice and tolerant. But I feel the list doesn't serve the interests of those (Me,Me,ME!) who want to discuss Dhamma in light of Abhidhamma and commentary without a lot of dealing with debate based on facile cut and paste sutta passage tossing. #123078 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2012 8:15 am Subject: Medin Poya is The Sangha Day! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Medin Poya day is the full-moon of March. This holy day celebrates that the Buddha visits his parental home after his supreme Enlightenment, and ordains his son prince R â hula , & half brother Nanda . This day is also called: The Sangha Day, since on this full-moon 1250 Arahats spontaneously met & assembled around the Buddha without any call. Buddha then spoke the famous Ovada Patimokkha core teaching! On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply join the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect, keep & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Lying & Cheating. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! The journey towards Nibbâna: The Deathless is hereby started! This is the Noble Way to Absolute Peace, to Complete Freedom, to Ultimate Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps also the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town, & country to me or join here . A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global web Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The New Noble Community of Buddha's Disciples: The Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift, and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Buddha with his son R â hula who also awakened into enlightenment! Medin Poya is Sangha Day! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #123079 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2012 4:14 pm Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #9 epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi all, > > In my opinion DSG should *not* be considered first and foremost a social club. It might be secondly a social club, but first and foremost it is a place where we learn about dhammas. > > If someone is spoiling our cosy chat (by talking about things we don't want to talk about) are we really experiencing a "someone"? Or are we ultimately experiencing the presently arisen dhamma-arammana (visible object, perhaps)? > > Not only DSG but everywhere in daily life should be considered first and foremost a place for learning about dhammas. > > Dhammas first and worldly concerns second, it's the only way. I think you've put this really well. In fact, no one, I don't think, would be here in the first place unless they had some desire to learn about the nature of dhammas. I'm sure for most people the technical discussions that make up most posts here would either be boring or impossible to understand, and only someone who is interested in the subject would bother to learn what it all means. For myself, I started out not understanding most of what was discussed here, and now I have a general idea what some of the main understandings are. I had no personal attachments to the people here when I first found myself here, other than the friend who told me about the list and then left a short while later, but for some reason the topics discussed kept pulling me back in. I think that is worth remembering, and I also like your cautionary note to remember what may be occurring in the moment when we think we are all involved with personalities and problems. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #123080 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2012 4:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad mood, feeling low sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Me: "...I can think of: Dhamma versus counselling; the Dhamma involved in 'trying to help'; Dhamma homogenization - to suggest a few." > > Sarah: "I picked out the questions in what you wrote as I recall. If there were any points/discussion topics just about dhammas or Dhamma, I'm happy to purse them." > > Scott: In each suggested category there is room to fit into your stated parameters for discussion. Put these in your 'purse' - ha ha - and see if you can find them again. .... Sarah: Just looking in my 'purse' again, I see Jon replied to the first one and Nina to the second, so will just look at the third topic: >Scott: 3) Dhamma homogenization. > > As time passes the Dhamma is subjected to the dumbing-down process of countless interpretations until today it is certainly lost beneath a lot of nonsense. .... Sarah: I would say, not "lost". We still have access to true Dhamma, but need the reminders, we need to hear about dhammas over and over again from good friends and from what we read, with the assistance of the Abhidhamma and commentaries emphasising the annattaness of the elements arising and falling away at this moment. Without the emphasis on dhammas at this moment, I think the Dhamma is "lost beneath a lot of nonsense". ... >Scott: While agreeing totally with the underlying message on the list related to the moment and the nature of dhammas, I question the things that have become calcified into 'religion.' And this list, despite it's core ideas with which I agree, is certainly not free of it's own 'religion.' .... Sarah: The Dhamma is not "lost" when it's apparent that there really are only the conditioned dhammas appearing now, regardless of the occasion or situation. Whilst we are concerned about religions and 'religion' about groups and lists and other people's behaviour (including that of those who run such groups/lists/religions), we forget all about the dhammas for studying now at this very instant. As I mentioned, I'm only interested in discussing such dhammas here - the seeing, the visible object, the attachment and proliferations, the annoyances - all just elements to be directly known. All our ideas about downfalls, calcifications into 'religions' and so on, just take us away from the topic - the understanding of dhammas now. .... >Scott: This 'religion' serves to shepherd and constrain various written behaviours and, as all religion, to force a certain conformity. Here the question is about the subtle and not so subtle religious aspects of the list which are not at all about 'the Dhamma' but are presented as if they are. ..... Sarah: Any community has rules about behaviour which are essential for its survival and for a certain harmony in the group. For example, the Buddha lay down very detailed rules for the bhikkhus because they were not all arahats - each one was laid down in response to the requirements of the community and society at large. In fact, for those who were fully enlightened, there was no need to emphasise metta, respect for the community and society, sila and so on, but for those who were not yet enlightened, there was. All of this was taught in detail in the Vinaya, along with the Teachings on satipatthana. Whatever was taught, was taught in the light of the understanding of present dhammas. Of course, there were always some bhikkhus who did not appreciate or agree with the rules. In any group or community, there are bound to be disagreements too. ... > Any and all of the above can be discussed, should this be desired, from the perspective of dhammas and the Dhamma. .... Sarah: I think the qualities of mutual respect, courtesy, kindness and so on are very important in any group/community/society and all these kinds of kusala were highly praised by the Buddha. Of course, as you stress, it's not the 'outward behaviour', but the citta that matters at this very moment. This is why we're so very fortunate to have access to reminders about dhammas and right understanding at this very moment, as I know you agree. Metta Sarah ===== #123081 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 7, 2012 6:23 pm Subject: the world in conventional sense and the world in the ultimate sense. nilovg Dear Scott and all, I came accross an old post by Scott (a very good one) where he approaches this subject with examples from daily life. This could help us to overcome a dilemma that need not exist. Scott, I think it is so helpful when you illustrate dhamma points with examples from your daily life. ------ < Scott: I had to go shopping for a blanket and Rebecca, the vital and stubborn (like her father?) one wanted a hoody but couldn't find one and then wanted some other hideous item of clothing just to avoid disappointment and soon we too were angry with one another. Later, while reading together it was gone. I lamented the anger and the impatience until I stopped - all gone. Now I like to think that the anger in Rebecca was 'over there' and the anger in me 'here' and it only seemed as if there was this interaction. And of course we are together in a store, or reading. I don't think consciously, while I'm trying to get a stubborn girl out of the store or reading to a sleepy girl, 'no-Rebecca, no-Scott'. I'm just in the moment and take it as it seems. There seems to really be a store or a book and a girl and a father. I'm in the human realm and act like a human. It is natural and can't be helped. This doesn't seem to change if one knows (theoretically or otherwise) that things are not how they seem. It would be totally unnatural to pretend to act with others as if they are not there. This would be insane. This would really confuse others and would only be unpleasant. I think, though, that this wouldn't be because the ultimate truth is not true. This would be because certain dhammas would condition the kind of speech and action that would be conducive to the well-being of 'others'.> ------- Nina. Mettaa, for example, would not lead to such a false way of interacting. Mettaa would have the object's well-being 'in mind' (not a 'little-self' - just a manner of speech). The concept of a person, which has this other 'person' one 'sees' and thinks about as support, is the object of mettaa and mettaa leads to actions that accord with the as-if nature of the existence of this 'person'. Mettaa could have no object and no development otherwise. This having concept as object would be natural, and accord with the actualities inherent in the current human realm in which we find ourselves. Conceit, more likely, would lead to one acting the way one thinks one should act with others in 'real time' were one to be all Buddhisty and Into It and Really, Really Abhidhamma and going, 'There is no me and no you so lets just smile beatifically and leave the store' or whatever. The theoretical knowledge of the Way Things Are - how things are definitely not how they seem - is in the background somehow. I find that this conditions a sort of Pulling Out Of The Moment, and by this I mean at some point there is a noticing of, say, anger, and conditions for it to subside. There are thoughts of suttas and about arisen states not arising in the future. ------- Nina. #123082 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2012 10:13 pm Subject: Gavesin Sutta (translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu) yawares1 Dear Members, I love this story very much,I too, will try to train myself to be better, bit by bit everyday. Please let me share the story of Gavesin with you all. ******* Gavesin Sutta On one occasion the Buddha was wandering on a tour among the Kosalans with a large community of monks. As he was going along a road, he saw a large sala forest. Going down from the road, he went to the sala forest and he happened to plunge into a certain spot, broke into a smile. Then Ven.Ananda asked him what made him smile. The Buddha said "In this spot, Ananda, there was once a great city: powerful, prosperous, populous, crowded with people. And in that city, Kassapa Buddha had a lay follower named Gavesin who didn't practice in full in terms of his virtue. But because of Gavesin, there were 500 people who had been inspired to declare themselves lay followers, and yet who also didn't practice in full in terms of their virtue. "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin the lay follower: 'I am the benefactor of these 500 lay followers, their leader, the one who has inspired them. But I don't practice in full in terms of my virtue, just as they don't practice in full in terms of their virtue. In that we're exactly even; there's nothing extra [for me]. How about something extra!' So he went to see the 500 lay followers and said to them, 'From today onward I want you to know me as someone who practices in full in terms of my virtue.' "Then the thought occurred to the 500 lay followers: 'Master Gavesin is our benefactor, our leader, the one who has inspired us. He will now practice in full in terms of his virtue. So why shouldn't we?' So they went to see Gavesin and said to him, 'From today onward we want Master Gavesin to know the 500 lay followers as people who practice in full in terms of their virtue.' "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin: 'I am the benefactor of these 500 lay followers, their leader, the one who has inspired them. I practice in full in terms of my virtue, just as they practice in full in terms of their virtue. In that we're exactly even; there's nothing extra [for me]. How about something extra!' So he went to the 500 lay followers and said to them, 'From today onward I want you to know me as someone who practices the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers.' "Then the thought occurred to the 500 lay followers: 'Master Gavesin is our benefactor, our leader, the one who has inspired us. He will now practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers. So why shouldn't we?' So they went to see Gavesin and said to him, 'From today onward we want Master Gavesin to know the 500 lay followers as people who practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers.' "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin the lay follower: 'I am the benefactor of these 500 lay followers, their leader, the one who has inspired them. I practice in full in terms of my virtue, just as they practice in full in terms of their virtue. I practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers, just as they practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers. In that we're exactly even; there's nothing extra [for me]. How about something extra!' So he went to the 500 lay followers and said to them, 'From today onward I want you to know me as someone who eats only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time.' "Then the thought occurred to the 500 lay followers: 'Master Gavesin is our benefactor, our leader, the one who has inspired us. He will now eat only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time. So why shouldn't we?' So they went to Gavesin and said to him, 'From today onward we want Master Gavesin to know the 500 lay followers as people who eat only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time.' "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin the lay follower: 'I am the benefactor of these 500 lay followers, their leader, the one who has inspired them. I practice in full in terms of my virtue, just as they practice in full in terms of their virtue. I practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers, just as they practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers. I eat only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time, just as they eat only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time. In that we're exactly even; there's nothing extra [for me]. How about something extra!' "So he went to see Kassapa Buddha and said to him, 'Lord, may I receive the Going Forth in the Blessed One's presence. May I receive the Full Acceptance.' So he received the Going Forth in the presence of Kassapa the Blessed One. And not long after his admission — dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute — he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the chaste life, for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.' And thus Gavesin the monk became an arahant. "Then the thought occurred to the 500 lay followers: 'Master Gavesin is our benefactor, our leader, the one who has inspired us. Having shaven off his hair & beard, having put on the ochre robe, he has gone forth from the home life into homelessness. So why shouldn't we?' "So they went to see Kassapa Buddha and said to him, 'Lord, may we receive the Going Forth in the Blessed One's presence. May we receive the Full Acceptance.' So they received the Going Forth in the presence of Kassapa the Blessed One. "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin the monk: 'I obtain at will — without difficulty, without hardship — this unexcelled bliss of release. O, that these 500 monks may obtain at will — without difficulty, without hardship — this unexcelled bliss of release!' Then those 500 monks — dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute — in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the chaste life, for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for themselves in the here & now. They knew: 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.' And thus did those 500 monks — headed by Gavesin, striving at what is more & more excellent, more & more refined — realize unexcelled release. "So, Ananda, you should train yourselves: 'Striving at what is more & more excellent, more & more refined, we will realize unexcelled release.' That's how you should train yourselves." ************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123083 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2012 8:40 am Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #9 kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ----- <. . .> > RE: I think that is worth remembering, and I also like your cautionary note to remember what may be occurring in the moment when we think we are all involved with personalities and problems. ----- KH: Thanks, Robert. I think a preference for pleasant concepts is a sign of wrong understanding, don't you? It's nice to be in a group of generous, kind, and wise friends, but to have a philosophical preference for such concepts is a different matter. Ken H #123084 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2012 11:00 am Subject: Energy is the Chief Root Hero of all Success! bhikkhu5 Friends: Energy (Viriya) is a Link to Awakening! The Energy Link to Awakening (Viriya-sambojjhanga) is basically the same mental property (viriya-cetasika), as that which performs any effort of action and which also is inherently included in the: The Energy Feet of Force (viriyiddhipâda) The Ability of Energy (viriyindriya) The Power of Energy (viriyabala) The Right Effort Path Factor (sammâ-vâyâma-magganga) When trained, developed and aroused energy is capable of enlightening! The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (âsava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Energy Link to Awakening based on seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in relinquishment, then neither can any mental fermentation, nor any fever, or discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one who examines, finds out why, & comes to assured comprehension, in him his energy link to awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] The ability of energy is to initiate, launch into action and to complete any undertaking using persistent endurance. When this ability becomes unshakable and unfailing, it then becomes the mighty Power of Energy! The function of energy is this four-fold Right Effort of: 1: Eradicating evil & disadvantageous states that have arisen in the mind. 2: Preventing the arising of yet unarisen disadvantageous mental states. 3: Initiating and developing yet unarisen advantageous mental states. 4: Increasing, refining & completing already arisen advantageous states. The characteristic of energy is readiness, willingness, enthusiastic ease, eager and keen vigour. The manifestation of energy is action, exertion, endeavour, industry, struggle, powerful striving and accomplishment! Lazy: The one, who does not rise, when it is time to rise. Who though young and strong, is weak in mind, soft in will, and lazy by nature, such slow one does never find the way to Nibbâna. Dhammapada 280 Get up! Sit up! Of what use are your dreams? How can you sleep, when sick, stabbed by the arrow of craving... Sutta Nipâta 331 Get up! Sit up! Push on your training, until reaching sole peace! Do not let the king of death see you sloppy and thus delude and dominate you like a toy doll... Sutta Nipâta 332 Feeding the Energy: And what, friends, is feeding the Energy Link to Enlightenment, that has not yet arisen, and food too for boosting of any present Energy? 1: The element of mental initiative, 2: The element of launching into action, 3: The element of enduring persistence. Systematic attention to these, is feeding any yet unarisen Energy Link to Awakening, and food too for boosting any present Energy. Samyutta Nikâya XLVI 51 Bojjhanga-samyutta Fivefold final Energy: Following the Buddha the energy in the disciple culminates, when he finally thinks: Let just this blood and flesh dry up & wither away so only skin, sinews and bones remain, I will not give up my quest and stray from this Noble 8-fold Path before having reached Enlightenment...! <...> Energy is the Chief Root Hero of all Success! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * http://What-Buddha-Said.net #123085 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2012 11:14 am Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #9 epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E, > > ----- > <. . .> > > RE: I think that is worth remembering, and I also like your cautionary note to > remember what may be occurring in the moment when we think we are all involved > with personalities and problems. > ----- > > KH: Thanks, Robert. I think a preference for pleasant concepts is a sign of wrong understanding, don't you? It's nice to be in a group of generous, kind, and wise friends, but to have a philosophical preference for such concepts is a different matter. I think that is an interesting point. I think it's bringing out my attachment to pleasant experience, since I find myself resisting this idea... I do have a question about it though, and maybe it's just more attachment, but here it is: it seems that although we shouldn't have a preference, that as negative kamma decreases and defilements become less prominent, there will be less negative vipaka and more pleasantness. Buddha praises the sense of happiness that comes with increased awareness, as well as the "pleasant abiding" of jhana. I think that more pleasantness accompanies greater kusala, but on the other hand, if one is attached to pleasant experience, that is akusala and will have just the opposite impact. Anyway, some thoughts... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #123086 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2012 1:00 pm Subject: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace yawares1 Dear Members, I watched this amazing story(in Thai)@ Youtube, I liked it very much. And it took me almost 2 hours to gather all informations to post this story with details. ******************* Prince Bodhirajakumara [Wisdom Library] Bodhi was the son of Udena, king of Kosambi, and his mother was the daughter of Candappajjota. Bodhi was skilled in the art of managing elephants, which art he learned from his father, a master in this direction. It is said that, while Bodhi was yet in his mother's womb, she visited the Buddha at the Ghositarama in Kosambi and declared that whatever child was born to her it would accept the Buddha, his teaching and the Order, as its abiding refuge. Later, after Bodhi's birth, his nurse took him to the Buddha at Bhesakalavana and made a similar declaration. When, therefore, Bodhi acknowledged the Buddha as his teacher, at the conclusion of the Bodhirajakumara Sutta, he was seeking the Buddha's refuge for the third time. ------------ [by Daw Mya Tin]: Once, Prince Bodhi built magnificent palace 'Kokanada' for himself. When the palace was finished he invited the Buddha for alms-food. For this special occasion, he had the building decorated and perfumed with four kinds of scents and incense. Also, a long length of cloth was spread on the floor, starting from the threshold to the interior of the room. Then, because he had no children, the prince made a solemn asseveration that if he were to have any children the Buddha should step on the cloth. When the Buddha came, Prince Bodhi respectfully requested the Buddha three times to enter the room. But the Buddha, instead of moving, only looked at Ananda. Ananda understood him and so asked Prince Bodhi to remove the cloth from the door-step. Then only, the Buddha entered the palace. The prince then offered delicious and choice food to the Buddha. After the meal, the prince asked the Buddha why he did not step on the cloth. The Buddha in turn asked the prince whether he had not spread the cloth making a solem asseveration that if he were to be blessed with a child, the Buddha would step on it; and the prince replied in the affirmative. To him, the Buddha said that he and his wife were not going to have any children because of their past evil deeds. The Buddha then related their past story. In one of their past existences, the prince and his wife were the sole survivors of a shipwreck. They were stranded on a deserted island, and there they lived by eating birds' eggs, fledglings and birds, without any feeling of remorse at any time. For that evil deed, they would not be blessed with any children. If they had felt even a slight remorse for their deed at any stage of their lives, they could have a child or two in this existence. Then turning to the prince, the Buddha said, "One who loves himself should guard himself in all stages of life, or at least, during one stage in his life." ------------- [Wisdom Library]: The palace Kokanada Note: According to Buddhaghosa(MA.ii.739), the palace was called Kokanada(lotus), because it was built in the form of a hanging lotus. yawares: I think 'Kokanada Palace' might look like this Lotus Temple?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_diMEasVOA&feature=related Some accounts* of the building of Prince Bodhi's palace add that as it was being completed, Bodhi conceived the idea of killing the architect or of blinding him so that he could never design a similar palace for anyone else. He confided this idea to Sanjikaputta, who warned the architect. The latter, therefore, obtained special timber(very dry and very light) from Prince Bodhi, saying it was for the palace, and made out of it a wooden bird large enough to hold himself and his family. When it was ready, he made it fly out of the window, and he and his family escaped to the Himalaya country, where he founded a kingdom and came to be known as King Katthavahana. * E.g., DhA.iii.134ff.; in J. iii.157 it is stated briefly that Prince Bodhi did actually blind the architect. In a previous birth he put out the eyes of one thousand warriors. See the Dhonasakha Jataka. ------------- Dhonasakha Jataka. Once a prince of Benares, named Brahmadatta, learned the arts from the Bodhisatta, then a teacher at Takkasila. The teacher (Parasariya), having observed his character, warned him against harshness and counselled him to be gentle. In due course, Brahmadatta became king, and on the advice of his chaplain, Pingiya, went out at the head of a large army and captured alive one thousand kings. And Pingiya also suggested that a sacrifice be offered, to take the form of blinding the captive kings and letting their blood flow round the rampart. This was done; but when Brahmadatta went to bathe, a Yakkha tore out his right eye, and, as he lay down, a sharp pointed bone, dropped by a vulture,blinded his left eye. He died in agony and was born in hell. **Note: The story was related in reference to Bodhirajakumara who blinded the architect of his palace (Kokanada), so he could never build another palace as grand and magnificent as Kokanada! Prince Bodhi is identified with Brahmadatta and Devadatta with Pingiya. ------------ Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 157: If one knows that one is dear to oneself, one should protect oneself well. During any of the three watches (of life) the wise man should be on guard(against evil). At the end of the discourse, Bodhirajakumara attained Sotapatti Fruition. *********************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123087 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2012 7:23 pm Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #9 kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ---------- <. . .> >> KH: It's nice to be in a group of generous, kind, and wise friends, but to have a philosophical preference for such concepts is a different matter. >> > RE: I think that is an interesting point. I think it's bringing out my attachment to pleasant experience, since I find myself resisting this idea... ----------- KH: You won't be the only one. You might remember a few weeks ago DSG was discussing a kindly snow-shovelling neighbour and a crazed gunman. Was the former individual necessarily more able to have right understanding than the latter? I voted no - in satipatthana that kind of question does not arise – but I may have been in the minority. ---------------- > RE: I do have a question about it though, and maybe it's just more attachment, but here it is: it seems that although we shouldn't have a preference, that as negative kamma decreases and defilements become less prominent, there will be less negative vipaka and more pleasantness. Buddha praises the sense of happiness that comes with increased awareness, as well as the "pleasant abiding" of jhana. I think that more pleasantness accompanies greater kusala, but on the other hand, if one is attached to pleasant experience, that is akusala and will have just the opposite impact. > Anyway, some thoughts... ------------------ KH: I think the Buddha praises only present-moment kusala (as in your examples). The concept of past kusala is "stale fare" and nothing to be proud of. Ken H #123088 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 8, 2012 7:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Delisting announcement #9 nilovg Dear Rob E and Ken H, Op 8-mrt-2012, om 1:14 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I do have a question about it though, and maybe it's just more > attachment, but here it is: it seems that although we shouldn't > have a preference, that as negative kamma decreases and defilements > become less prominent, there will be less negative vipaka and more > pleasantness. Buddha praises the sense of happiness that comes with > increased awareness, as well as the "pleasant abiding" of jhana. I > think that more pleasantness accompanies greater kusala, but on the > other hand, if one is attached to pleasant experience, that is > akusala and will have just the opposite impact. ------- N: When we think of kamma in past lives and the latent tendencies that have been accumulated on and on, also in past lives, we do not expect a decrease of akusala kamma, nor defilements to become less prominent. Also, kusala citta can be accompanied by happy feeling or by indifferent feeling. As you say, being attached to pleasantness is akusala. Feeling is only feeling, it arises and then falls away immediately. Why do we attach so much importance to pleasant feeling? As Ken repeats all the time, every experience occurs only in the moment, also when hearing disagreeable words or reading unpleasant posts. But as you write to Ken, This is very human. ------ Nina. #123089 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 8, 2012 7:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gavesin Sutta (translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu) nilovg Dear Yawares, thank you very much for this sutta. Gavesin and his followers attained arahatship. Although satipa.t.thaana is not mentioned in this sutta, it is implied, because without developing insight it is impossible to become an ariyan, to attain the different stages of enlightenment up to arahtship. We read about the undertaking of the five precepts by Gavesin and his followers, and we should know that only from the stage of the sotaapanna on, one is so much established in the precepts that they can never be transgressed anymore. That is why it is said that the fulfillment of siila takes place when the stage of the sotaapanna has been reached. Gavesin and his folowers must have developed right understanding of all naamas and ruupas in daily life. This sutta is an exhortation to continue developing satipa.t.thaana even at this moment. It never is enough, until arahatship has been reached. Nina. Op 7-mrt-2012, om 12:13 heeft Yawares Sastri het volgende geschreven: > They knew: 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. > There is nothing further for the sake of this world.' And thus did > those 500 monks — headed by Gavesin, striving at what is more & > more excellent, more & more refined — realize unexcelled release. > > "So, Ananda, you should train yourselves: 'Striving at what is more > & more excellent, more & more refined, we will realize unexcelled > release.' That's how you should train yourselves." #123090 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 8, 2012 8:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 6-mrt-2012, om 18:12 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > S: Whatever we read in the suttas, we can be sure it is referring > to the development of insight of realities. This is the mundane > right understanding referred to, not our usual, conventional ideas > about "mother, father" and so on. > > D: objection, Sarah. > I doubt that you will find support by anyone with a fair knowledge > of the Sutta Pitaka for such statement. ------- N: As Ken H said, in all the suttas there is a message of satipa.t.thaana. I would say, even when satipa.t.thaana is not mentioned, it is implied. See the Gavesin sutta. Thus, as I said before, all the good counsels we read about, such as in the suttas on layfollowers (Diigha Nikaaya), are really about developing more understanding of the citta that motivates good deeds and bad deeds. In this way we appreciate more and more any part of the teachings. We are not distracted by the outward appearance of deeds, but we pay attention to citta, which is an inward reality. ------ Nina. #123091 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2012 10:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gavesin Sutta (translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu) yawares1 Dear Nina, Thank you for reading my Gavesin story. I post all stories with pure love in my heart. Sincerely, yawares --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Yawares, > thank you very much for this sutta. Gavesin and his followers > attained arahatship. Although satipa.t.thaana is not mentioned in > this sutta, it is implied, because without developing insight it is > impossible to become an ariyan, to attain the different stages of > enlightenment up to arahtship. > We read about the undertaking of the five precepts by Gavesin and his > followers, and we should know that only from the stage of the > sotaapanna on, one is so much established in the precepts that they > can never be transgressed anymore. That is why it is said that the > fulfillment of siila takes place when the stage of the sotaapanna has > been reached. > Gavesin and his folowers must have developed right understanding of > all naamas and ruupas in daily life. This sutta is an exhortation to > continue developing satipa.t.thaana even at this moment. It never is > enough, until arahatship has been reached. > Nina. > Op 7-mrt-2012, om 12:13 heeft Yawares Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > They knew: 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. > > There is nothing further for the sake of this world.' And thus did > > those 500 monks — headed by Gavesin, striving at what is more & > > more excellent, more & more refined — realize unexcelled release. > > > > "So, Ananda, you should train yourselves: 'Striving at what is more > > & more excellent, more & more refined, we will realize unexcelled > > release.' That's how you should train yourselves." > > > > > #123092 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2012 1:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina and Sarah, you wrote: S: Whatever we read in the suttas, we can be sure it is referring > to the development of insight of realities. This is the mundane > right understanding referred to, not our usual, conventional ideas > about "mother, father" and so on. > > D: objection, Sarah. > I doubt that you will find support by anyone with a fair knowledge > of the Sutta Pitaka for such statement. ------- N: As Ken H said, in all the suttas there is a message of satipa.t.thaana. I would say, even when satipa.t.thaana is not mentioned, it is implied. See the Gavesin sutta. Thus, as I said before, all the good counsels we read about, such as in the suttas on layfollowers (Diigha Nikaaya), are really about developing more understanding of the citta that motivates good deeds and bad deeds. In this way we appreciate more and more any part of the teachings. We are not distracted by the outward appearance of deeds, but we pay attention to citta, which is an inward reality. ------ D: you may say in all suttas you will find a message concerning sila and/ or samadhi and/ or panna... But that wasn't the point I objected ( see above) Following extracts from Anguttara Nikaya , trsl. Sister Upalavanna , related to mother and father with Metta Dieter A.N. II 34. Bhikkhus, I say, you cannot repay two persons. Who are the two? It is mother and father. Bhikkhus, if you had borne your father and mother on your shoulders and lived a hundred years and meanwhile rubbed and massaged their bodies and they let loose urine and excreta, yet you have not returned the gratitude shown to you. Even if you offer them all the wealth and make them rulers of the earth, even then you have not returned the gratitude shown to you, because they have done much more. They fed you when you could not walk and showed you the world. If your mother and father did not have faith and you instilled faith in them, if they did not have virtues instilled virtues in them, if they were miserly, made them benevolent and if they were not wise, made them wise, you have shown gratitude to your mother and father, it is more than enough A:N. II 137 Bhikkhus, on account of the wrong behaviour towards two, the not learned foolish man destroys himself, becomes blameable and blamed by the wise, accures much demerit. Who are the two? They are mother and father. A.N. III 31. Bhikkhus, those families in which the mother and father are worshipped by the children at home are with Brahma. Bhikkhus, they are the first instructions in the families, when the mother and father are worshipped by the children. Bhikkhus, those families in which the mother and father are worshipped by the children at home are adorable. Bhikkhus, Brahma is a synonym for mother and father. The first teachers is a synonym for mother and father. Loved ones is another synonym for mother and father. Bhikkhus, mother and father do much for their children, when they cannot walk, they are fed and the world is shown to them by mother and father. Mother and father are Brahma, the first teachers, it is said, They should be revered with compassion and worshipped. They should be supplied with eatables, drinks, clothes and beds. Should rub them, bathe them and wash their feet The wise rejoice attending on mother and father here And they rejoice in heaven hereafter. A.N.III 45. Bhikkhus, these three are appointed by Great Wise Men. What three? Bhikkhus, giving gifts is appointed by Great Wise Men Bhikkhus, going forth and becoming homeless is appointed by Great Wise Men. Bhikkhus, attending on mother and father is appointed by Great Wise Men. These three are appointed by Great Wise Men. A:N.III Moral faliure 118 Bhikkhus, these three are the moral faliures. What three? Faliure in virtues, failing to develop the mind and failing to rectify the view. Bhikkhus, what is the faliure in virtues? Here a certain one destroys living things, takes the not given, misbehaves in sexual desires, tells lies, slanders, talks roughly and talks frivolously. Bhikkhus, this is faliure in virtues. Bhikkhus, what is failing to develop the mind? Here bhikkhus a certain one has a coveting and a hateful mind. Bhikkhus, this is failing to develop the mind . Bhikkhus, what is failing to receitfy the view? Here bhikkhus, a certain one is with wrong view, a reversed vision; there are no results for a gift, offering or a sacrifice, there are no results for good and evil actions, there is no this world or other world, there is no mother, no father. There are no spontaneously arisen beings, neither are there recluses and brahmins who have come to the right path and method and by themselves realizing this world and the other world declare it. Bhikkhus, this is failing to rectify the view. A.N. IV 4. Bhikkhus, following a wrong course of action towards four the foolish ordinary man destroys himself and becomes blamable and blamed by the wise accrues much demerit. Which four? Bhikkhus, following a wrong course of actions towards, the mother, ... re ... ñhe father, ... re ... the Thus Gone One and ... re ... towards the disciples of the Thus Gone One the foolish ordinary man destroys himself and becomes blamable and blamed by the wise accrues much demerit. Bhikkhus, following the wrong course of actions towards these four the foolish ordinary man destroys himself and becomes blamable and blamed by the wise accrues much demerit. Bhikkhus, following the right course of actions towards four the wise Great Man does not destroy himself, not blamable and not blamed by the wise accrues much merit. Which four? Bhikkhus, following the right course of actions towards, the mother, ... re ... ñhe father, ... re ... the Thus Gone One and ... re ... towards the disciples of the Thus Gone One the wise Great Man does not destroy himself, does not become blamable and not blamed by the wise accrues much merit. Humans following the wrong course of actions towards, Mother, father, the Thus Gone One, or his disciples Here and now accrue much demerit when blamed by the wise, Here after they go to hell. Following the right course of actions towards, Mother, father, the Thus Gone One and his disciples, The wise accrue much merit when praised by the wise, And later they rejoice in heaven. 　 　 A.N.V 32 . The Blessed One said to those girls: Therefore, girls, you should train thus. Our mother and father shows our husbands out of compassion for our welfare. We will rise when they approach, will go to sleep after them, will do their duties obediently. We will do their wishes, will talk to them pleasantly Therfore, girls, you should train thus: We will honour and revere the elders in the husbands' homes, whether mother or father, recluses or Brahmins. At their arrival we will offer them seats and water Therefore girls, you should train thus: Whatever activities there be in the husband's home if it is to comb silk thread, we will be clever and not lazy and become efficient to do them ourselves and to get it done by others. Therefore girls, you should train thus: We should know the people in our husband's home, whether servants, messengers or workmen. We should know what they should do, and what they should not do. We should know the sick, the fit and the physically unfit, eatables and nourishments we will divide up to the last. Therefore girls, you should train thus: Whatever our husbands bring, wealth, grains, silver or gold, we will protect them, and 　 　 A.N. V 63 Bhikkhus, mother and father desire sons to be born in the clan seeing these five needs. What five? Reared they will support us, they will do our work, the clan will be protected in the future, a heritage will be left and when dead and gone they will give us merit. Bhikkhus, mother and father desire sons to be born in the clan seeing these five needs. Reared they will support us, they will do our work, The clan will be protected and the heritage will be left, Or when dead and gone they will give us merit. The wise seeing these needs desire sons. Therefore appeased great men who are grateful to their parents Support mother and father recalling what they did. They do whatever work that was done by the forefathers Becoming obedient supports the family and clan And the son endowed with faith and virtues is praiseworthy 　 ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 Dear Dieter, Op 6-mrt-2012, om 18:12 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > S: Whatever we read in the suttas, we can be sure it is referring > to the development of insight of realities. This is the mundane > right understanding referred to, not our usual, conventional ideas > about "mother, father" and so on. > > D: objection, Sarah. > I doubt that you will find support by anyone with a fair knowledge > of the Sutta Pitaka for such statement. ------- N: As Ken H said, in all the suttas there is a message of satipa.t.thaana. I would say, even when satipa.t.thaana is not mentioned, it is implied. See the Gavesin sutta. Thus, as I said before, all the good counsels we read about, such as in the suttas on layfollowers (Diigha Nikaaya), are really about developing more understanding of the citta that motivates good deeds and bad deeds. In this way we appreciate more and more any part of the teachings. We are not distracted by the outward appearance of deeds, but we pay attention to citta, which is an inward reality. ------ Nina. #123093 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2012 3:38 am Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #9 epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: I think the Buddha praises only present-moment kusala (as in your examples). The concept of past kusala is "stale fare" and nothing to be proud of. My only problem with that is that as I understand it, present kusala and present understanding is largely a product of past accumulations of such arisings; so it doesn't seem we have the option of ignoring past kusala as a condition for present kusala - at least in understanding how it occurs. On the other hand, as far as actual understanding now is concerned, you're right that past kusala is not an issue. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - #123094 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2012 3:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Delisting announcement #9 epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------- > N: When we think of kamma in past lives and the latent tendencies > that have been accumulated on and on, also in past lives, we do not > expect a decrease of akusala kamma, nor > defilements to become less prominent. Not sure if I understand this. Kusala does lead to more kusala, is that right...? > Also, kusala citta can be > accompanied by happy feeling or by indifferent feeling. That is good to know. > As you say, > being attached to pleasantness is akusala. So neutral feeling would be unattached to the pleasant vipaka? > Feeling is only feeling, > it arises and then falls away immediately. Why do we attach so much > importance to pleasant feeling? As Ken repeats all the time, every > experience occurs only in the moment, also when hearing disagreeable > words or reading unpleasant posts. Good to remember, thanks for mentioning that. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #123095 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2012 8:21 am Subject: Tranquillity! bhikkhu5 Friends: Tranquillity is a Link to Awakening! The Tranquillity Link to Awakening (passaddhi-sambojjhanga) has the characteristic of peace, and the function of stilling, which manifests as absence of restless trembling. Stillness of feeling, perception and mental construction is the factor that induces bodily Tranquillity. Stillness of consciousness itself induces mental Tranquillity. The proximate cause of Tranquillity is the satisfaction within Joy! The resulting effect of Tranquillity is the bliss within Happiness! The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (âsava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Tranquillity Link to Awakening based on seclusion, based on disillusion, based on ceasing, and culminating in cool relinquishment, then neither can mental fermentation, nor any fever, nor any discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one who is joyous, the body becomes calm & the mind becomes calm. The Tranquillity Link to Awakening emerges right there. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] CALM Calm is his thought, calm is his speech, and calm is his deed, who, truly knowing, is wholly freed, perfectly tranquil and wise. Dhammapada 96 CONTENT The one who eliminates discontent, tearing it out by the roots, utterly cuts it out, such one spontaneously becomes absorbed in the calm of tranquillity both day & night. Dhammapada 250 COMPOSED The one who is tranquil in movement, calmed in speech, stilled in thought, collected and composed, who sees right through and rejects all allurements of this world, such one is truly a 'Peaceful One'. Dhammapada 378 Inspirations on the calming & soothing of serene Tranquillity (Passaddhi): Tranquillity_Passaddhi , Feeding_Tranquillity , The_Tranquil_One <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #123096 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2012 10:29 am Subject: Bhikkhu Kumara-Kassapa and His Mother yawares1 Dear Members, I translated this cute story from my Thai Dhammapada book(by Sujeep Punyanuparp, Thai version). Please forgive my bad English. ********* At Rajagaha City, a young lady(daughter of a rich family),who was so impressed with Buddha's majesty, loved to go listening to his dhamma preaching. She wanted to join Buddha's Order but her parents denied, wanted her to marry a young man that they chose for her. After marriage for a while, she begged her husband to let her join the Order. Her husband gave permission, so she asked to be ordained as bhikkhuni residing with lady-monks, novices of bhikkhu Devadatta. Months later, those lady-monks noticed that the new bhikkhuni was pregnant. They shamed her and brought the case to Bhikkhu Devadatta who decided that she should quit the Order. But she argued that she didn't join bhikku Devadatta's Order, she joined the Buddha's Order so Buddha should be the one who judged her. After intensive investigation conducted by Upali thera(appointed by Buddha), the truth came out that she was pregnant before she was ordained, she was not to be blamed or to quit being bhikkhuni. This pregnancy case was quite famous that even king Pasenadi and upasika Visakha got involved. After the bhikkhuni gave birth to a babyboy at the monastery, king Pasenadi adopted the baby, raised him as his own child in his palace and named him 'Kumara-Kassapa'. When he became a bigboy playing with princes,princesses, they sometimes ridiculed him as an orphan that made him sad about his life. He was only 7 years old when he went to see the Buddha and asked to be ordained as a samanera, residing at Buddha's place. At the age 20 yrs old, he became a bhikku and asked Buddha's permission to go to Andhavana(Dark) Forest to meditate alone. One day,Kumara-Kassapa was so deep in his meditation, then a Suddhávása-superdeva (who used to be his friend practice meditation together in the time of Kassapa Buddha), appeared in front of him and suggested Bhikkhu Kumara-Kassapa to take his 15 questions to the Buddha. So he traveled days and nights to see the Buddha, asking him all 15 questions. While Buddha was telling him the answers to all 15 questions( Vammika Sutta), Bhikkhu Kumara-Kassapa focused his mind on every answers that he attained arahantship with Patisampitha 4 right after the end of Question#15. Once, there was a prince named Payasi of Setavya, his stubbornness,arrogance was well known throughout the city. But after meeting and debating about his belief with Bhikkhu Kumara-Kassapa, he admitted in public that he was wrong in every categories and even annouced himself as a royal-upasaka of Buddha and his monks!! The Buddha praised Bhikkhu Kumara-Kassapa as "etadagga" who was foremost among those who had the gift of varied and versatile discourse (cittakathikanam). --------- NOTE**: The mother of Bhikkhu Kumara-Kassapa was broken hearted after king Pasenadi took her babyboy to raise in his palace. She truly missed him all those years, always wished she could meet him someday since she learned that her son became a bhikkhu. One day she saw bhikkhu Kumara-Kassapa walking for alm-food, she was so happy, running to him so fast that she stumbled and fell to the ground in front of him. Bhikkhu Kumara-Kassapa realised that her great love was standing in the way of her attainments, he intended to make his mother get over him, detaching from worldly love, so he criticized that she had become a bhikkhuni for quite a long time, it was ashamed that she still could not give up ordinary worldly love. The ruse succeeded, his words cut through her heart like a knife, she suffered deeply that she went back to the monastery, she meditated continuously, nonstop, and she attained arahantship that day. ----------- NOTE: In the time of Padumuttara Buddha Kassapa was a learned brahmin, and having heard a monk ranked foremost in eloquence, he wished for a similar distinction and did many good deeds and merits towards the end. NOTE: The superdeva was from the Suddhávása brahma world. He was one of five friends who, in the time of Kassapa Buddha, had entered the Order and who, in order to meditate uninterruptedly, had climbed a mountain using rocks by means of a ladder which they had then removed, thus cutting off their return. The eldest became an arahant in three days, the second (anuthera) was this superdeva, who had become an anágámí. The third was Pukkusáti, the fourth Báhiya Dárucíriya and the last Kumára-Kassapa. This superdeva was responsible for the arahantship both of Báhiya Daruciriya and Kumara-Kassapa. ***************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123097 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 9, 2012 4:38 pm Subject: Recollecting by comparison (1) hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, There are Eight Ways of Recollecting Death as described in Chapter VIII of Visuddhi Magga. [Eight Ways of Recollecting Death] 8. But one who finds that it does not get so far should do his recollecting of death in eight ways, that is to say: (1) as having the appearance of a murderer [vadhakapaccupa.t.thaanato], (2) as the ruin of success [sampattivipattito], (3) by comparison [upasa.mhara.nato], (4) as to sharing the body with many [kaayabahusaadhaara.nato], (5) as to the frailty of life [aayudubbalato], (6) as signless [animittato], (7) as to the limitedness of the extent [addhaanaparicchedato], (8) as to the shortness of the moment [kha.naparittato]. (3) by comparison [upasa.mhara.nato] is again subdivided into seven ways. 16. [3]. By comparison [upasa.mhara.nato]: by comparing oneself to others. Herein, death should be recollected by comparison in seven ways, that is to say: (i) with those of great fame, (ii) with those of great merit, (iii) with those of great strength, (iv) with those of great supernormal power, (v) with those of great understanding, (vi) with Paccekabuddhas, (vii) with fully enlightened Buddhas. How? ------------ Han: I like this method of comparison, especially the comparison with the fully enlightened Buddha. However, our Myanmar custom and tradition [at least in my generation] dictate that I should not compare myself with the most revered Lord Buddha. No doubt, I can and should follow his examples, but, as my Elders had warned me, I cannot say: "Like Lord Buddha, I am so and so" or "Like Lord Buddha, I have done such and such." Nevertheless, when I contemplate on ageing and death I cannot help reading DN 16 Mahaaparinibbaana sutta, not with the idea of comparing myself with the Buddha, but to get sa.mvega by reading the accounts of the Last Days of the Buddha. Thus, I will present some passages from DN 16 Mahaaparinibbaana sutta that touch my heart or that arouse keen interest in me. The paragraph numbers are from Paa.li Pi.taka, and the translation is by Burma Pi.taka Association. --------------- 164. Atha kho bhagavato vassuupagatassa kharo aabaadho uppajji, baa.lhaa vedanaa vattanti maara.nantikaa. Taa suda.m bhagavaa sato sampajaano adhivaasesi aviha~n~namaano. Atha kho bhagavato etadahosi "na kho meta.m patiruupa.m, yvaaha.m anaamantetvaa upa.t.thaake anapaloketvaa bhikkhusa"ngha.m parinibbaayeyya.m. Ya.mnuunaaha.m ima.m aabaadha.m viiriyena pa.tipa.naametvaa jiivitasa"nkhaara.m adhi.t.thaaya vihareyya"nti. Atha kho bhagavaa ta.m aabaadha.m viiriyena pa.tipa.naametvaa jiivitasa"nkhaara.m adhi.t.thaaya vihaasi. 164. Some time after the Bhagava had entered upon the residence period of the rains, there arose in him a severe illness and he suffered excessive pain, near unto death. The Bhagava endured, with mindfulness and clear comprehension, and without being perturbed. Then the Bhagava had this thought: "It would not be proper for me to pass away in the realization of Nibbaana without letting the attendant bhikkhus know, without taking leave of the community of bhikkhus. (Therefore) I should ward off this illness by effort (of Insight meditation, vipassana bhavana,) and abide in the life-maintaining phala samaapatti (sustained absorption in Fruition attainment)." Then the Bhagava warded off his illness by effort (of vipassana bhavana) and abided in the life-maintaining phala samapatti. The Bhagava's illness subsided. ---------- Han: The sa.mvega I get from the above paragraph is that even Lord Buddha, the foremost among human beings, devas and brahmas, could not prevent the suffering from severe illness. But for the Buddha he could enter into "jiivita-sa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti" to maintain his life. The Great Chronicle of Buddhas (by Mingun Sayadaw) explains in more detail about the sentence: "Ya.mnuunaaha.m ima.m aabaadha.m viiriyena pa.tipa.naametvaa jiivitasa"nkhaara.m adhi.t.thaaya vihareyya" aabaadha.m pa.tipa.naametvaa = illness is set aside, or illness subsided. by what? by viiriya and jiivitasa"nkhaara. viiriya, here, means effort of insight meditation, vipassanaa bhaavanaa. jiivitasa"nkhaara means "jiivita-sa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti." adhi.t.thaaya = the Buddha made a resolution that he lives for another ten months, up to the full moon day of the month of Kason, May 543 B.C, 148 Maha Era. [Note: The year may be different in different Sources, but the month is in May.] ---------- Han: The Great Chronicle of Buddhas also explains that there are three types of phalasamaapatti of the Buddha. (1) Maggaanantara-phalasamaapatti = in arahatta-magga-viithi of Buddha, immediately after arahattamagga, magga phala javana arise three times. This is maggaanantara-phalasamaapatti. (2) Va.la~njana-phalasamaapatti = is the absorption that experiences the bliss of Nibbaana. For this, the Buddha can enter anytime as he wishes. It is said that even during the Teaching, while the audience is saying Sadhu, Sadhu Sadhu, the Buddha can enter into it. But mostly the Buddha enters into it whenever he has the free time after performing each of his daily duties. (3) Jiivitasa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti as mentioned in paragraph 164. It is also called "aayusa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti" and "aayupaalana phalasamaapatti" [paalana = protection] ---------- Han: With regard to the suppression of illness, The Great Chronicle of Buddhas gives the following example. Va.la~njana-phalasamaapatti can suppress the illness temporarily; it will come back when the Buddha emerges from the va.la~njana samaapatti. If there is moss in the pond, if you throw a stone, the moss will be separated only when the stone hits the surface, but the moss will come back again as the stone sinks. Jiivitasa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti or aayusa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti or aayupaalana phalasamaapatti is like a strong man wading into the pond and pushes away the moss in all directions. The moss will stay separated longer by this way. So also, the illness will remain suppressed for longer time. But it will still be necessary to enter into the aayusa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti again and again. [My own example: like recharging the battery of the mobile phone.] ----------- Han: How long can the Buddha, if he so desired, maintain his life by "jiivitasa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti" or "aayusa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti" or "aayupaalana phalasamaapatti"? 167. xxx Tathaagatassa kho, aananda, cattaaro iddhipaadaa bhaavitaa bahuliikataa yaaniikataa vatthukataa anu.t.thitaa paricitaa susamaaraddhaa, so aaka"nkhamaano, aananda, tathaagato kappa.m vaa ti.t.theyya kappaavasesa.m vaa"ti. 167. xxx Ananda, the Tathagata has cultivated, practised, used as a means (lit., a vehicle), based himself on, maintained, mastered (lit. studied well), and perfectly developed the four Bases of Psychic Power. Therefore, Ananda, the Tathagata could, if he so desired, live the maximum life-span or even beyond the maximum life-span. Han: "the maximum life-span or even beyond the maximum life-span" means up to 100 years of age or beyond that up to 120 years of age, which is regarded as extreme old age at that time. To be continued. with metta and respect, Han #123098 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2012 5:22 pm Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #9 sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Rob E), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > RE: I think that is an interesting point. I think it's bringing out my attachment > to pleasant experience, since I find myself resisting this idea... > ----------- > > KH: You won't be the only one. You might remember a few weeks ago DSG was discussing a kindly snow-shovelling neighbour and a crazed gunman. Was the former individual necessarily more able to have right understanding than the latter? > > I voted no - in satipatthana that kind of question does not arise – but I may have been in the minority. .... S: Just to interject with a little controversy here.... The way you've put it now: "Was the former individual necessarily more able to have right understanding than the latter?" - clearly this would just depend on the right understanding and awareness that has been accumulated and which is conditioned to arise, regardless of the situation. But, previously, I think the way you put it was a little different. For example you wrote before to Scott: "No matter how extreme the conventional situation might be the truth remains the same: there are only dhammas. Dhammas are not people; they don't suffer pain and they don't enjoy pleasure. They just roll on regardless. "So you can't have it both ways! Don't tell me in one breath there are only dhammas and then, in the next breath, that shoveling snow is better (or worse) than shooting people. S: I would agree, of course, that there are only dhammas, not people, which roll on regardless. I would agree that right understanding can arise anytime at all. I would agree that "shovelling snow" and "shooting people" are situations involving a myriad of different cittas. However, any "kindly" cittas, moments of true metta and generosity, are definitely preferable to "crazed" angry cittas. Kusala is still kusala and akusala is still akusala - to be known for what they are. Now, if I understand you're just referring to the arising of satipatthana, then I follow and agree with you... .... > KH: I think the Buddha praises only present-moment kusala (as in your examples). The concept of past kusala is "stale fare" and nothing to be proud of. ... S: Good point....always back to the citta now. Metta Sarah p.s Pt came over in the huge rain-storm to visit us yesterday and we thought of you. By the time he left, the sun was shining and huge, beautiful surf waves were to be seen. Hope the floods your way have cleared up. Always fun with Pt and he's always looking for ways to be helpful, but not many questions these days! Btw, Nina, I forgot to mention that we took my mother up to visit Vince & Nancy in the Blue Mountains when she was staying. She really enjoyed the trip and Vince & Nancy were very hospitable as usual. They were about to leave to spend most the year on a retreat in Sri Lanka. ============== #123099 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2012 5:30 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > S: Yes, exactly. Whilst we think in terms of "circumstances" and "events" rather than understanding dhammas, there will always be proliferations and disturbances on account of the experiences through the senses. > > Very interesting. You could see how experiencing the unpleasant rupas as vipaka would potentially give a certain degree of freedom from making the story even more complicated and created more disturbances. .... S: You got some flak for this comment, but I understood what you meant in the light of the discussion. You simply meant that if there is an understanding of the sense door experiences, such as seeing, hearing or bodily experience as only moments of vipaka, there would be less inclination to be disturbed by what is experienced - i.e the visible object, sound, smell, taste or tangible object. There can be an understanding that the problems in life are not the brief moments of seeing or bodily experience of rupas, but the lobha, dosa and moha on account of these experiences whilst thinking about them, thinking long stories about an idea of what is experienced. Metta Sarah ==== #123100 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2012 5:46 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Hi Rob E, Sarah all > > > > S: Yes, exactly. Whilst we think in terms of "circumstances" and "events" rather than understanding dhammas, there will always be proliferations and disturbances on account of the experiences through the senses. > > > >R: Very interesting. You could see how experiencing the unpleasant rupas as vipaka would potentially give a certain degree of freedom from making the story even more complicated and created more disturbances. >P: But we don't experience the dhammas as vipaka, do we? We think about situations in terms of vipaka, and surely it is almost alwayswith lobha in pursuit of pleasant mental feeling, Dhamma as comforter. .... S: We study the Teachings in order to understand what the Truth is, what the realities are as much as possible. So the Buddha's purpose in teaching is to show us that the way we are used to thinking is not correct and that lobha is bound to be prevalent throughout the day. By developing more and more understanding, beginning with pariyatti, right considering of these dhammas appearing now, such as seeing or hearing or lobha, we have more and more confidence and less and less doubt about the path, about the value of hearing reminders about the present moment in order to be aware now. .... >The Buddha said that worldlings know no way away from pain except through seeking pleasure. I think we should be honest with ourselves about how much of that goes on re Dhamma. No need to worry about it but we can remember how very very rare monents of kusala are. ... S: It doesn't matter at all. There can be a beginning now - a beginning of understanding of whatever appears - lobha, kusala, seeing, visible object. They are all just dhammas, not mine, not yours or anyone else's. If there is an attempt to measure the kusala, the akusala, the understanding or the ignorance, it indicates just more attachment to "Me and my level of kusala/wisdom" which isn't helpful at all. One moment at a time, one citta at a time, one dhamma to be known at a time only. What's gone has completely gone. Here's a brief discussion I made a note of: ***** KS: The best thing is to understand reality which appears as a conditioned reality. P: But until there are conditions for that kind of understanding, something like lust, for example, or dosa will sweep us away into these proliferations. KS: There is the clinging to the self so much that one tries the other way, not to understand it as a reality. **** Metta Sarah === #123101 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2012 5:53 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Dear Phil, Scott & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > P: "But we don't experience the dhammas as vipaka, do we? We think about situations in terms of vipaka..." > > Scott: Correct. This is a good example of discussion which gets to the heart of a matter. You honed in on the precise wording, penetrated the ambiguity, and pointed out the rather large problem lying underneath. This being the problem with the 'experiential' school of thought. As you say, we don't 'experience dhammas as vipaka' - this is thought about. Talk about 'experience' is talk about thinking. ... S: Seeing is vipaka whether there is any understanding of it or not. The same applies to all other vipaka cittas. Yes, when there is no understanding, this is thought about, but the purpose of reflecting on dhammas - kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya cittas, for example - is to begin to understand the realities as they actually are, not as we've always (wrongly) thought about them. Talking about such understanding of dhammas is talk about realities - essential for clarfication and understanding of the path to develop. Metta Sarah ===== #123102 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. sarahprocter... Dear Friends, > S: Seeing is vipaka whether there is any understanding of it or not. The same applies to all other vipaka cittas. Yes, when there is no understanding, this is thought about, but the purpose of reflecting on dhammas - kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya cittas, for example - is to begin to understand the realities as they actually are, not as we've always (wrongly) thought about them. > > Talking about such understanding of dhammas is talk about realities - essential for clarfication and understanding of the path to develop. .... S: I had meant to add this extract from "Survey", ch 16 which Nina posted recently: "We can really benefit from the teachings when satipatthaana is developed. The development of satipatthaana should not make us discouraged. The realities which appear can be penetrated and realized as they are. They arise and fall away, they are not self, not a being or person. When we consider the great value of the truth and know that we can realize it one day, although not today, we shall not be disheartened. One should not worry about it that one cannot know realities as they are today. Sati can arise and begin to be aware today, and then the characteristics of realities will surely one day be wholly penetrated and clearly known as they are. When we see that the truth of Dhamma is for our benefit and that it can be attained, we shall not become discouraged. We shall continue to listen and to study the realities the Buddha taught in detail, and then we shall not be forgetful of realities, there will be conditions for the arising of sati." ... S: The more understanding develops, the less doubt, the less discouragement there is about the Path - the only path. There can be sati that is aware of realities - any realities, even now as we speak. Metta Sarah ==== #123103 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2012 6:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 sarahprocter... Dear Dieter & all, --- On Thu, 8/3/12, Dieter Moeller wrote: >>S: Whatever we read in the suttas, we can be sure it is referring > to the development of insight of realities. This is the mundane > right understanding referred to, not our usual, conventional ideas > about "mother, father" and so on. .... > D: objection, Sarah. > I doubt that you will find support by anyone with a fair knowledge > of the Sutta Pitaka for such statement. ... S: The development of insight of realities, the lokiya path, i.e. the development of satipatthana, is the clear understanding of cittas, cetasikas and rupas - all anicca, dukkha and anatta. So whether we are helping our parents, paying respect to the Buddha, going to work or performing household chores, there is no doubt, no wrong view that life consists of anything other than cittas, cetasikas and rupas. The usual, conventional ideas on the other hand are that our parents, our friends, our work and our home actually exist in reality. There is no understanding of dhammas at all. We are discussing the two right views in MN 117 and have confirmed that the commentary to the relevant passage clarifies that "there are two kinds of right view that are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the radical destruction of defilements." So, the fact that it is insight being discussed needs to be kept in mind when we read passages such as the following (and all the good suttas you've quoted): "And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. "* S: (As taken from an earlier message #98317 I wrote): ***** >Mother, father etc are used here to counteract the wrong views often referred to (as taken from an earlier message): "And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world or other world; NO MOTHER OR FATHER; NO BEINGS who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous INDIVIDUALS in the world who have realised for themSELVES by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.' THIS IS WRONG VIEW.> ------ S: The wrong view is that it's not necessary to do good deeds or be respectful to parents,there is the wrong idea that kamma does not produce results. Parents and beings are just used in ordinary language, but it is only with the development of insight that such wrong views are eradicated, along with all doubts about kamma and the path. ... Mike N. replied (to my earlier message) >M: Since I know you'd agree that concepts can't be the bases of insight, must not this be referring to a kind of conceptual right view? And if it does refer to mundane insight (rather than to 'conceptual right view), what is its relationship to those concepts? ... >S: It's pointing to the development of insight, the right understanding of realities, of conditions, kamma and so on. "6. And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Right view, I say, is twofold: there is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions (sammaadi.t.thi saasavaa pu~n~naabhaagiyaa upadhivepakkaa); and there is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path (sammaadi.t.thi ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga"ngaa)."* <...> M:> Finally, referring back to TB's translation again, "..."And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? ..."And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path?..." If, as you suggest, 'both refer to the development of insight', then why "..Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts..."? .... S: Mundane right view, with aasavas not yet eradicated and supra mundane right view (of the various levels), with the aasavas eradicated according to the degree of supramundane path level. ... M:> Sorry if this is all a bit muddled. It could be just that I've got a wrong idea about mundane insight--i.e. that it's simple kusala kamma resulting in kusala vipakka and that it CAN have concept as a base. Doesn't sound right to me, though. ... S: No. Mundane insight refers to vipassana ~naanas - insight into realities, leading to the supramundane paths. **** * MN117: "6. And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Right view, I say, is twofold: there is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions (sammaadi.t.thi saasavaa pu~n~naabhaagiyaa upadhivepakkaa); and there is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path (sammaadi.t.thi ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga"ngaa). "7. And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions? 'There is what is given (atthi dinna.m) and what is offered (atthi yi.t.tha.m) and what is sacrificed (atthi huta.m); there is fruit and the result of good and bad actions (atthi suka.tadukka.taana.m kammaana.m phala.m vipaako); there is this world (atthi aya.m loko) and the other world (atthi paro loko); there is mother and father (atthi maataa, atthi pitaa); there are beings who are reborn spontaneously (atthi sattaa opapaatikaa); there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world (atthi loke sama.nabraahma.naa sammaggataa sammaapa.tipannaa).' This is right view affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions. "8. And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The wisdom (pa~n~naa), the faculty of wisdom (pa~n~nindriya.m) , the power of wisdom (pa~n~naabala.m) , the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor (dhammavicayasambojjha"ngo), the path factor or right view in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path; this is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path (sammaadi.t.thi magga"nga.m aya.m vuccati bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga"ngaa)." ============= Metta Sarah ===== #123104 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2012 6:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Short on "no-control" sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > D: let me repeat the (common) order of D.O. to avoid misunderstandings due to a different presentation : > avijja cond. sankhara cond vinnana cond nama / rupa etc.. > nama/rupa is defined by 'feeling, perception, volition,contact and attention this is called mind. The four great elements (earth, water, fire,air) and the material form assumed by the 4 elements ' , SN XII 2. ( Volition,contact and attention stand for sankhara khanda ) .... S: As discussed, nama in the context of D.O. specifically refers to vipaka cetasikas which accompany patisandhi (birth citta) and subsequent vipaka cittas (i.e. vinnana in this context). Rupa in this context refers to rupas conditioned by kamma. So not all volition, contact and attention are included here. For example, at the moment of seeing (vipaka citta) the 7 universal cetasikas arise with it. These included volition, contact and attention. These are all 'nama' in the context of D.O., but the volition, contact and attention accompanying the cittas which think about what is seen now are not. .... <....> > S:>While these dhammas are khandhas, so are all the other dhammas referred to. Nibbana is the only dhamma which is not khandha. > > D: as dhammas covers 'all things ', they cover the 5 khandas , not vice versa .. (see above) > is nibbana a 'thing ' ? That would be a no(t)- thing , wouldn't it? .... S: The only realities, dhammas, are the khandhas and nibbana. I would describe these as elements, not things. Metta Sarah ===== #123105 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2012 7:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 sarahprocter... Dear Howard & all, Welcome back!! --- On Mon, 5/3/12, upasaka@... wrote: >  In the 1st sutta of the book of tens in A.N., the progression sila-->samadhi--> pa~n~na is detailed as follows: Virtuous ways of conduct -> Non-remorse -> Gladness -> Joy -> Serenity -> Happiness -> Concentration of the mind -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. .... S: All of these, beginning with "virtuous ways of conduct" are to be developed with right understanding, satipatthana, otherwise there isn't any development leading to higher insights, enlightenment and the full eradication of defilements. ... >H: I pointed this out in prior posts. I also then pointed out the following: wrote: > In the 1st sutta of the book of tens in A.N., the progression sila-->samadhi--> pa~n~na is detailed as follows: Virtuous ways of conduct -> Non-remorse -> Gladness -> Joy -> Serenity -> Happiness -> Concentration of the mind -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. .... S: All of these, beginning with "virtuous ways of conduct" are to be developed with right understanding, satipatthana, otherwise there isn't any development leading to higher insights, enlightenment and the full eradication of defilements. ------------------------------------------------------ HCW: Yes. At least some degree of right understanding, i.e., knowledge and vision of things as they really are (and the resultant revulsion and dispassion, slight though it might initially be), is required for there to be energy expended towards virtuous ways of conduct, and, in a spiral fashion, each pass through from there onwards strengthens the various factors. Were ignorance TOTAL to begin with, which thank goodness it never is, there would be no way out, and if wisdom didn't increase, final release would never occur. ==================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123107 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: indifferent feeling, was:Delisting announcement #9 nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 8-mrt-2012, om 17:51 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > N: When we think of kamma in past lives and the latent tendencies > > that have been accumulated on and on, also in past lives, we do not > > expect a decrease of akusala kamma, nor > > defilements to become less prominent. > > Not sure if I understand this. Kusala does lead to more kusala, is > that right...? ------- N: It is true that kusala is accumulated and can condition the arising of kusala citta later on. But, also a great deal of akusala has been accumulated, not to be underestimated. Such an amount of ignorance has been accumulated from eaons, and it takes a long, long way to develop the Path leading to liberation from the cycle. -------- > > As you say, > > being attached to pleasantness is akusala. > > R: So neutral feeling would be unattached to the pleasant vipaka? -------- N: Indifferent feeling can accompany kusala citta, akusala citta, vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. We have to know what type of citta it accompanies. This is not easy at all. Moreover, the moments of vipaaka are so short, they have gone already when we think about the vipaaka. Mostly there are already akusala javana cittas in the process with lobha, dosa and moha, reacting to vipaaka. We believe that it is still vipaaka, but in reality akusala cittas have arisen already. ------- Nina. #123108 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:59 am Subject: Vammika Sutta Dear Members, Because of this amazing Sutta, bhikkhu Kumara-Kassapa attained arahantship. I did read it 2 times and would like to share it with you all. *********** Vammika Sutta The Simile of the Ant Hill At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anathapindika in Jeta's grove in Savatthi.. At that time venerable Kumarakassapa lived in the Dark forest. When the night was waning a certain deity illuminated the whole of the Dark forest and approached venerable Kumarakassapa stood on a side, and said, Bhikkhu, this ant hill smokes in the night and blazes in the day. The brahmin said Wise one, take a tool and dig. When digging with the tool he saw an obstacle; Good one, an obstacle. The brahmin said remove the obstacle wise one, and dig with the tool.. Digging with the tool he saw a swollen dead body. Good one a swollen dead body. The brahmin said, wise one remove the swollen dead body and dig with the tool.. Digging with the tool he saw a forked path. Good one a forked path. The brahmin said, remove the forked path and dig with the tool. Good one a casket. The brahmin said, wise one remove the casket and dig with the tool. Digging with the tool he saw a tortoise. Good one, a tortoise. The brahmin said remove the tortoise and dig with the tool . Digging with the tool he saw a slaughter house. Good one a slaughter house. The brahmin said, wise one remove the slaughter house and dig with the tool. Digging with the tool he saw a tendon of flesh. Good one a tendon of flesh. The brahmin said, wise one remove the tendon of flesh and dig with the tool. Digging with the tool, he saw a snake. Good one a snake. The brahmin said, wise one, stop do not hurt the snake, worship the snake. Bhikkhu, approach the Blessed One and ask this question and as he explains it bear it in mind. In this world of gods and men, together with its Maras, Brahmas and the community of recluses and brahmins I do not see anyone who could answer this question and convince the mind except the Thus Gone One, a disciple of the Thus Gone One or one who has heard it .Saying that the deity vanished from there.. . Venerable Kumarakassapa at the end of that night approached the Blessed One, worshipped and sat on a side. Sitting venerable Kumarakassapa said thus to the Blessed One. Venerable sir, last night, a certain deity illuminated the whole of Dark the forest and approached me and stood on a side, and said, Bhikkhu, this ant hill smokes in the night and blazes in the day. The brahmin said Wise one, take a tool and dig. When digging with the tool he saw an obstacle; Good one, an obstacle. The brahmin said remove the obstacle wise one, and dig with the tool. Digging with the tool he saw a swollen dead body. Good one a swollen dead body. The brahmin said, wise one remove the swollen dead body and dig with the tool.. Digging with the tool he saw a forked path. Good one a forked path. The brahmin said, remove the forked path and dig with the tool. Good one a casket. The brahmin said, wise one remove the casket and dig with the tool. Digging with the tool he saw a tortoise. Good one a tortoise. The brahmin said , wise one remove the tortoise and dig with the tool Digging with the tool he saw a slaughter house. Good one a slaughter house. The brahmin said, wise one remove the slaughter house and dig with the tool. Digging with the tool he saw a tendon of flesh. Good one a tendon of flesh. The brahmin said, wise one remove the tendon of flesh and dig with the tool. Digging with the tool, he saw a snake. Good one a snake. The brahmin said, wise one, stop do not hurt the snake, worship the snake. Bhikkhu, approach the Blessed One and ask this question and as he explains it bear it in mind. In this world of gods and men, together with its Maras, Brahmas and the community of recluses and brahmins I do not see anyone who could answer this question and convince the mind except the Thus Gone One, a disciple of the Thus Gone One or one who has heard it .Saying that the deity vanished from there. Venerable sir, what is an ant hill, what is to smoke in the night. What is to blaze in the day. Who is the brahmin and who is the wise one, what is the tool, what is to dig, what is an obstacle, what is a swollen dead body, what is the forked path, what is a casket, what is a tortoise, what is a slaughter house, what is a tendon of flesh, and who is the snake.. Bhikkhu, ant hill is a synonym for this four elemental body brought forth by mother and father, supported on rice and bread and subject to impermanence, brushing, breaking and destruction. Whatever work done during the day, is thought and discursively thought in the night, this is to smoke during the night. What is thought and discursively thought during the night is put into action through body, words and mind during the day, that is to blaze in the day Brahmin is a synonym for the Thus Gone One, worthy and rightfully enlightened. The wise one is a synonym for the trainer. The tool is a synonym for the noble one's wisdom. Dig is a synonym for aroused effort. Obstacle is a synonym for ignorance. Remove the obstacle is dispel ignorance Its meaning is wise one take a tool and dig. Bhikkhu, a swollen dead body is a synonym for anger and restlessness. Take the tool dig and remove the swollen dead body is dispel anger and restlessness. A forked path is a synonym for doubts. Take the tool , dig and remove the forked path is its meaning. The casket is a synonym for the five hindrances;; sensual interest, aversion, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry, and doubts. Dispel the five hindrances is. wise one take a tool dig and remove the casket is its meaning.. Tortoise is a synonym for the five holding masses. Such as the holding mass of matter, the holding mass of feelings, the holding mass of perceptions, the holding mass of determinations, and the holding mass of consciousness. Remove the tortoise is give up the five holding masses. Wise one take a tool, dig and remove the tortoise is its meaning. .Slaughter house is a synonym for the five strands of sensual pleasures. Such as pleasing agreeable forms arousing fondness cognizable by eye consciousness. Pleasing agreeable sounds arousing fondness cognizable by ear consciousness. Pleasing agreeable smells arousing fondness cognizable by nose consciousness. Pleasing agreeable tastes arousing fondness cognizable by tongue consciousness and pleasing agreeable touches arousing fondness cognizable by body consciousness. Remove the slaughter house is dispel the five strands of sensual desires. Wise one take the tool dig and remove the slaughter house is its meaning. A tendon of flesh is a synonym for interest and greed. Wise one take the tool and dig is its meaning. The snake is a synonym for the bhikkhu with desires destroyed. Wait! Do not hurt the snake, worship the snake, is its meaning. The Blessed One said thus and venerable Kumarakassapa delighted in the words of the Blessed One. ************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123109 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:47 am Subject: Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > S: Yes, exactly. Whilst we think in terms of "circumstances" and "events" rather than understanding dhammas, there will always be proliferations and disturbances on account of the experiences through the senses. > > > > Very interesting. You could see how experiencing the unpleasant rupas as vipaka would potentially give a certain degree of freedom from making the story even more complicated and created more disturbances. > .... > S: You got some flak for this comment, but I understood what you meant in the light of the discussion. You simply meant that if there is an understanding of the sense door experiences, such as seeing, hearing or bodily experience as only moments of vipaka, there would be less inclination to be disturbed by what is experienced - i.e the visible object, sound, smell, taste or tangible object. > > There can be an understanding that the problems in life are not the brief moments of seeing or bodily experience of rupas, but the lobha, dosa and moha on account of these experiences whilst thinking about them, thinking long stories about an idea of what is experienced. I think you understood what I was saying very well. While the unpleasant rupas of unpleasant vipaka may be unpleasant in the moment to the cittas involved, the proliferations that may arise attendant to those rupas can be much more unpleasant, entertaining thoughts of how horrible everything is and how it may not ever change or get better, with a lot of akusala namas as a consequence. And as I understand it, such proliferations will act as kamma to cause further negative moments in the future. I guess the controversial part is whether having the conceptual understanding that experiences now are vipaka and not circumstantially-based can reduce the degree of proliferations and extended akusala reactions. It seems to me that having that correct perspective could cause one to tolerate the present experiences in a different way. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #123110 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:33 am Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #9 kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ----- <. . .> S: Just to interject with a little controversy here.... The way you've put it now: "Was the former individual necessarily more able to have right understanding than the latter?" - clearly this would just depend on the right understanding and awareness that has been accumulated and which is conditioned to arise, regardless of the situation. > But, previously, I think the way you put it was a little different. For example you wrote before to Scott: > "No matter how extreme the conventional situation might be the truth remains the same: there are only dhammas. Dhammas are not people; they don't suffer pain and they don't enjoy pleasure. They just roll on regardless. > "So you can't have it both ways! Don't tell me in one breath there are only dhammas and then, in the next breath, that shoveling snow is better (or worse) than shooting people. ----- KH: I can't believe I spoke to Scott in that tone of voice :-) ------------- > S: I would agree, of course, that there are only dhammas, not people, which roll on regardless. I would agree that right understanding can arise anytime at all. I would agree that "shovelling snow" and "shooting people" are situations involving a myriad of different cittas. However, any "kindly" cittas, moments of true metta and generosity, are definitely preferable to "crazed" angry cittas. Kusala is still kusala and akusala is still akusala - to be known for what they are. -------------- KH: Yes, they are to be known as mere dhammas. There is no one hurting or harming anyone else, and there is no one being hurt or being harmed. There are just impersonal, disinterested, dhammas. So what's your point? :-) --------------------- > S: Now, if I understand you're just referring to the arising of satipatthana, then I follow and agree with you... --------------------- KH: Thank you, I knew I was sailing close to the wind at the time, but what else can one do in a Dhamma discussion? :-) If I could start again I would make clear that I was just saying situations played no role in satipatthana. The situation of a gunman on a shooting spree is no more threatening to a monk than is the situation of a friendly neighbour shovelling snow. And the thought of being shot is no more threatening than the thought of having snow cleared away. *And* (sailing close to the wind now) the situation of *being* a mass murderer is no more threatening to a monk than the situation of being a friendly neighbour. ---------------------------------- <. . .> > S:....always back to the citta now. ---------------------------------- KH: That's the part I accidentally left out; :-) kusala is absolutely kusala and akusala is absolutely akusala. When a monk sees the consequences of any murderous deeds he might have committed he literally vomits blood (if I remember the suttas correctly). It's that serious! So, if I seemed to be advocating a carefree attitude towards kusala and akusala cittas, I apologise for my flippancy. I agree the difference must be understood. Ken H #123111 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:42 am Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #9 kenhowardau Hi again, I've just read my previous post and spotted a silly typo. Instead of "hurting or harming anyone else" I meant to write hurting or *helping* anyone else. That might have been a little more sensible. :-) Ken H #123112 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:29 am Subject: Openhanded Generosity ;-) bhikkhu5 Friends: Generosity is the first Mental Perfection: Generosity means willingness to give and share whatever. Generosity means magnanimous and open-handed liberality. Generosity means freedom from small and stingy pettiness. Generosity means practicing charity for the poor and unfortunate. Generosity means kind big-heartedness towards those worthy of it. Generosity means warm-hearted and altruistic unselfishness. Generosity provides the kammic cause for later wealth.. Giving causes Getting... No Giving causes Poverty! The Blessed Buddha explained the treasure of generosity like this: When a disciple of the Noble Ones whose mind and mentality is all cleared of disgracing miserliness, living at home, is freely generous and open-handed, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to every request and, is enjoying the giving of any alms. Such is this treasure called generosity. AN VII 6 Just as a filled pot, which is overturned, pours out all of its water, leaving nothing back, even and exactly so should one give to those in need. Whether low, middle or high, like the overturned pot, holding nothing back…! Jataka Nidana [128-129] The Generosity of Giving, The Kindness in Speech, The Benefit of Service, The Impartiality of treating all Alike, These 4 threads of Selfless Sympathy, Upholds this world, like the axle do the cart! AN II 32 Giving food, one gives and later gets strength. Giving clothes, one gives and later gets beauty. Giving light, one gives & later gets vision & intelligence. Giving transportation, one gives and later gets ease. Giving protecting shelter, one gives and later gets all... Yet the one who instructs in the True Dhamma, - The supreme Teaching of all the Buddhas - Such one gives a quite divine ambrosia! SN I 32 These are these five rewards of generosity: One is liked and charming to people at large, One is admired and respected by wise people, One's good reputation is spread wide about, One does not neglect a householder's true duty, and with the break-up of the body - at the moment of death - one reappears in a happy destination, in the plane of the divine worlds! AN V.35 There are these two kinds of gifts: Material gifts and gifts of Dhamma. The supreme gift is that of Dhamma. There are these two kinds of sharing: Material sharing and sharing of Dhamma. The supreme sharing is that of Dhamma. There are these two kinds of help: Material help and help with the Dhamma. This is the supreme of the two: Help with this subtle Dhamma … It 98 Sabbadânam dhammadânam jinâti. The gift of Dhamma exceeds all other gifts. Dhammapada 354 The Bodhisatta once as king Sivi gave both his eyes to a beggar who was Sakka the king deity in disguise, who desired to test him. He remembered "While I was wishing to give, while I was giving and after this giving there was neither contrariety, nor opposition in my mind, since it was for the purpose of perfect awakening itself! Neither were these eyes, nor the rest of my body, disagreeable to me. Omniscience was dear to me! Therefore I gave both my eyes." The Basket of Conduct Cariyapitaka I-8 Full story: Sivi Jataka no. 499 The Bodhisatta once as the Wise Hare gave his roasted body as alms to a beggar by jumping into a fire: He remembered: "There came a beggar and asked for food. Myself I gave so that he might eat. In alms-giving there was none equal to me. In alms, I had thereby reached the absolute ultimate perfection." From then and the rest of this world-cycle the moon will display a characteristic 'hare-in-the-moon' sign! Sasa-Jataka no. 316 Giving of things, treasures, external possessions, job, position, wife, and child is the first perfection of giving. Giving the offer of one's organs, limbs, and senses is the second higher perfection of giving. Giving the sacrifice of one's life is the third ultimate perfection of giving only performed by future Buddhas! The clarifier of sweet meaning 89 (Commentary on Buddhavamsa) Madhuratthavilasini [59] Venerable Buddhadatta: 5th century. Generosity is the first mental perfection (parami): Clinging and egoism creates internal panic and social tension. Giving and sharing creates internal elation and social harmony... What is gladly given, returns more than thousandfold! Giving requires Relinquishing! Giving is Anti-Clinging! Giving is the opposite mental state of Greed... <...> Glad Generous Giving! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #123113 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:46 pm Subject: Recollecting by comparison (2) hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, I am presenting some passages from DN 16 Mahaaparinibbaana sutta that touch my heart or that arouse keen interest in me. The paragraph numbers are from Paa.li Pi.taka, and the translation is by Burma Pi.taka Association. Soon after the Buddha warded off his severe illness by effort of vipassanaa bhaavanaa and abided in the life-maintaining jiivitasa"nkhaara phala samapatti, the Buddha told Ven Aananda about his condition. 165. xxx Aha.m kho panaananda, etarahi ji.n.no vuddho mahallako addhagato vayoanuppatto. Aasiitiko me vayo vattati. Seyyathaapi, aananda, jajjarasaka.ta.m ve.thamissakena yaapeti, evameva kho, aananda, ve.thamissakena ma~n~ne tathaagatassa kaayo yaapeti. Yasmi.m, aananda, samaye tathaagato sabbanimittaana.m amanasikaaraa ekaccaana.m vedanaana.m nirodhaa animitta.m cetosamaadhi.m upasampajja viharati, phaasutaro, aananda, tasmi.m samaye tathaagatassa kaayo hoti. 165. xxx Ananda, I am now frail, old, aged, far gone in years, and in the last stage of life. I have reached the eightieth year. Just as, Ananda, a worn-out old cart is held together merely by bindings and repairs, so the body of the Tathagata is held together merely by (the force of) the phala-samapatti. Ananda, it is (only) when the Tathagata attains and is abiding in the animitta Concentration of Mind (in the Arahatta phala samapatti), through not paying attention to any phenomenal image and through the cessation of some sensations (i.e., mundane sensations), that the Tathagata's body is at real ease and comfort (lit., at greater ease). Han: The sa.mvega I get from the above paragraph is that even the Buddha, the foremost among the human beings, devas and brahmas, cannot escape from the clutch of ageing process and the deteriorating condition of his body. He said that his body had to be held together merely by the force of the jiivitasa"nkhaara phala-samaapatti. What can be said about an ordinary worldling who does not have the ability to enter into jiivitasa"nkhaara phala samapatti? ------------ Han: Although the Buddha could, if he so desired, live the maximum life-span or even beyond the maximum life-span by jiivitasa"nkhaara phala-samaapatti, he decided at the Caapaala shrine to give up the jiivita-sa"nkhaara phalasamaapatti after three months. First, the Buddha said to Maara, "You, Evil One, do not be anxious. Before long the parinibbaana of the Tathagata will take place. Three months from today, the Tathagata will realize parinibbaana." 169. Atha kho bhagavaa caapaale cetiye sato sampajaano aayusa"nkhaara.m ossaji. Ossa.t.the ca bhagavataa aayusa"nkhaare mahaabhuumicaalo ahosi bhi.msanako salomaha.mso, devadundubhiyo ca phali.msu. 169. Then the Bhagava, while at the Capala shrine, decided mindfully and deliberately to give up the life-sustaining mental process by not re-entering into phalasamapatti (after three months). When the Bhagava renounced the life-sustaining mental process, there occurred a great earthquake, terrible, hair-raising and gooseflesh-causing in its dreadfulness. Also, rolls of thunder burst forth continuously. Han: Here, the phalasamaapatti is called aayusa"nkhaara phala-samaapatti, which is the same as jiivitasa"nkhaara phala-samaapatti. Please note the words (after three months) inserted by Burma Pi.taka Association within brackets. This means that the Buddha would continue to enter into aayusa"nkhaara phala-samaapatti up to the total of ten months, in accordance with the resolution that he had initially made. It does not mean that the Buddha would immediately stop entering into aayusa"nkhaara phala-samaapatti from the moment he declared about it at the Caapaala shrine. This fact is confirmed by the Great Chronicle of Buddhas by Mingun Sayadaw. But this may not agree with other English translations. For example, Maurice Walshe just wrote that the Lord, at the Caapaala Shrine, mindfully and in full awareness renounced the life-principle. That is all; it does not say immediately or after three months. It is not also in the Paa.li text. But the Burmese version states that the Buddha would stop the phalasamaapatti only after three months. The reason given is that the Buddha has two responsibilities: atta hita and para hita. He had accomplished the atta hita at the foot of the Bodhi tree when he attained the enlightenment. By his sabba~n~nutaa ~naa.na the Buddha knows that the second responsibility of para hita, would be finished by the coming full-moon day of Kason. That is why he decided mindfully and deliberately to give up the aayusa"nkhaara phala-samaapatti at that time. This also clears up the notion which some might have, that the Buddha gave up the aayusa"nkhaara phala-samaapatti because he was afraid of the Maara who came to insist on his parinibbaana. But the reader may take the version that he/she prefers. ---------- Han: There are passages in the sutta that are useful to reflect for those who are approaching the time of death and separation from the loved ones. The following is one such paragraph. 183. "Nanu eta.m, aananda, mayaa pa.tikacceva akkhaata.m 'sabbeheva piyehi manaapehi naanaabhaavo vinaabhaavo a~n~nathaabhaavo. Ta.m kutettha, aananda, labbhaa, ya.m ta.m jaata.m bhuuta.m sa"nkhata.m palokadhamma.m, ta.m vata maa palujjiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati'. Ya.m kho paneta.m, aananda, tathaagatena catta.m vanta.m mutta.m pahiina.m pa.tinissa.t.tha.m ossa.t.tho aayusa"nkhaaro, eka.msena vaacaa bhaasitaa 'na cira.m tathaagatassa parinibbaana.m bhavissati. Ito ti.n.na.m maasaana.m accayena tathaagato parinibbaayissatii'ti. Ta~nca tathaagato jiivitahetu puna paccaavamissatiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. 183. Ananda, have I not from former times proclaimed that there must be separation (while living), severance (through death) and sundering (through being in different stases of existence) from all that are dear and beloved. Ananda, in this matter, how can the wish be realized that anything which has the nature of arising, of appearing, of being compounded, and of decay and dissolution, should not disintegrate and disappear? There can be no such possibility. Ananda, the Tathagata has abandoned, thrown up, let go, relinquished, thrown away and renounced the life-sustaining mental process, ayusankhara. And the Tathagata has affirmed definitely that 'the parinibbana of the Tathagata will take place before long; three months from this day the Tathagata will realize parinibbana.' There is no possibility of the Tathagata going back on that affirmation, just to live longer. Han: In particular, I like [sabbeheva piyehi manaapehi naanaabhaavo vinaabhaavo a~n~nathaabhaavo] very much. It is similar to a passage from AN 5.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta [AN 5.57 Abhi.nhapaccavekkhitabba.thaana sutta] which I recite quite often. "sabbehi me piyehi manaapehi naanaabhaavo vinaabhaavo"ti. "I must be separated and parted from all that is dear and beloved to me." ---------- Han: Like a householder, knowing that his time of death is near, is giving the last minute instructions to his family, the Buddha, knowing that his parinibbaana is approaching, gives advice for the welfare of his monks and followers. 185. Atha kho bhagavaa bhikkhuu aamantesi "handadaani, bhikkhave, aamantayaami vo, vayadhammaa sa"nkhaaraa, appamaadena sampaadetha. Nacira.m tathaagatassa parinibbaana.m bhavissati. Ito ti.n.na.m maasaana.m accayena tathaagato parinibbaayissatii"ti. Idamavoca bhagavaa, ida.m vatvaana sugato athaapara.m etadavoca satthaa. "Paripakko vayo mayha.m, paritta.m mama jiivita.m; Pahaaya vo gamissaami, kata.m me sara.namattano. "Appamattaa satiimanto, susiilaa hotha bhikkhavo; Susamaahitasa"nkappaa, sacittamanurakkhatha. "Yo imasmi.m dhammavinaye, appamatto vihassati; Pahaaya jaatisa.msaara.m, dukkhassanta.m karissatii"ti. 185. Then the Bhagava further addressed the bhikkhus thus: "O Bhikkhus, I now say this to you: All conditioned and compounded things, sankhara, have the nature of decay and disintegration. With mindfulness endeavour diligently (to complete the task). The Parinibbana of the Tathagata will take place before long. Three months from this day the Tathagata will realize Parinibbana (i.e., will finally pass away)." "I am now quite ripe in age. Only a little of my life remains. I shall have to depart, forsaking you. I have made myself my own refuge." "Bhikkhus, vigilantly and with mindfulness, be of pure virtue, being composed and collected of mind, thinking right, watch over (i.e., control) your own mind. "Bhikkhus, in this Teaching, this Doctrine and Discipline, he who is heedfully vigilant will be able to escape from the round of repeated rebirths and make an end of dukkha." Han: I read the above passage with sadness in my mind, but with a resolution that I would follow his instructions and that his instruction will not go in vain. -------------- To be continued. with metta and respect, Han #123114 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:44 pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 jonoabb Hi Alex (122796) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Jon, all, > ... > > J:The reason for this is that (a) the 8 *factors* of the path (Pali: >magganga) are mental factors that co-arise at path moments, > >============================================== > > A: Where is this said by the Buddha in the suttas? > =============== J: In an earlier reply to this post I said, "The suttas do not expressly say that the 8 factors are mental factors that co-arise at path moments; but neither do they say that the 8 factors are 'actions to be undertaken'. It's a matter of context and commentarial elaboration." I'd like to supplement that earlier reply with a sutta that, in my view, supports the commentarial view of the NEP factors as co-arising mental factors. The sutta is SN 55 (Sotapatti-samyutta), 5. It is a dialogue between the Buddha and Sariputta. In essence, the sutta says the following: "What is a factor for stream-entry? "Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. "What is the stream? "This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, fright mindfulness, right concentration. "What is a stream-enterer? "One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan." Note that, according to the sutta, the NEP *is* the stream. This accords with the idea of the NEP factors as being the mental factors that co-arise at path moments. And it does not seem to leave room for the idea of the NEP factors as 'descriptions of actions to be undertaken' (separately and individually). Furthermore, the stream-enterer is said to *possess* the NEP. Again, this seems to accord with the idea of the NEP factors as co-arising mental factors. Jon #123115 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:56 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace sarahprocter... Dear Yawares, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Yawares Sastri" wrote: > I watched this amazing story(in Thai)@ Youtube, I liked it very much. And it took me almost 2 hours to gather all informations to post this story with details. > > ******************* > > Prince Bodhirajakumara [Wisdom Library] ... S: Thank you for sharing the story. You may also find it helpful for your research to check in Dictionary of Pali Proper Names (available on-line) for details. For example, I just searched under 'pali dictionary bodhirajakumara' in google and found many of the same details you provided with helpful references. (I'm just mentioning it in case it saves your time.) It was interesting that not having any children was the result of such evil deeds! Metta Sarah ===== #123116 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:17 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace kenhowardau Hi Sarah (and Yawares), ----- <. . .> > S: It was interesting that not having any children was the result of such evil deeds! ----- KH: In my experience childlessness has been a great blessing. I think this is one of many examples where the Buddha's conventional descriptions of dhammas can be seen to be tailored to fit the audience's values rather than to have some "conventional truth" in their own right. Not that I have anything against children! :-) Ken H #123117 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:40 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace yawares1 Dear Ken, Thank you for reading my story. Thanks, yawares --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Sarah (and Yawares), > > ----- > <. . .> > > S: It was interesting that not having any children was the result of such evil deeds! > ----- > > KH: In my experience childlessness has been a great blessing. I think this is one of many examples where the Buddha's conventional descriptions of dhammas can be seen to be tailored to fit the audience's values rather than to have some "conventional truth" in their own right. > > Not that I have anything against children! :-) > > Ken H > #123118 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:51 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace yawares1 Dear Sarah, Thank you for telling me about "pali dictionary" and also thanks for reading my Bodhi story. Beautiful Thai orchids for you/Nina: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1fkbZfiu0Y Best wishes, yawares --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Yawares, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Yawares Sastri" wrote: > > > I watched this amazing story(in Thai)@ Youtube, I liked it very much. And it took me almost 2 hours to gather all informations to post this story with details. > > > > ******************* > > > > Prince Bodhirajakumara [Wisdom Library] > ... > S: Thank you for sharing the story. You may also find it helpful for your research to check in Dictionary of Pali Proper Names (available on-line) for details. For example, I just searched under 'pali dictionary bodhirajakumara' in google and found many of the same details you provided with helpful references. (I'm just mentioning it in case it saves your time.) > > It was interesting that not having any children was the result of such evil deeds! > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #123119 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:18 am Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace rjkjp1 Dear Ken do you think it is the result of kusala kamma to be barren or sterile? These cases are different from someone who does not wish chidren and stays celibate. robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Sarah (and Yawares), > > ----- > <. . .> > > S: It was interesting that not having any children was the result of such evil deeds! > ----- > > KH: In my experience childlessness has been a great blessing. I think this is one of many examples where the Buddha's conventional descriptions of dhammas can be seen to be tailored to fit the audience's values rather than to have some "conventional truth" in their own right. > > Not that I have anything against children! :-) > > Ken H > #123120 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace nilovg Dear Yawares, Thank you for the Thai orchids. So, here is visible object through the eyes and sound through the ears. Different objects at different moment experienced through different doorways, though they seem to occur at the same time while watching youtube. Amazing. Nina. Op 10-mrt-2012, om 11:51 heeft Yawares Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Beautiful Thai orchids for you/Nina: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1fkbZfiu0Y #123121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recollecting by comparison (2) nilovg Dear Han, Thank you very much for your recollection and especially for your personal additions. I also find it helpful when you mention the Burmese tradition. Op 10-mrt-2012, om 3:46 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: 183. Ananda, have I not from former times proclaimed that there must be separation (while living), severance (through death) and sundering (through being in different stases of existence) from all that are dear and beloved. Ananda, in this matter, how can the wish be realized that anything which has the nature of arising, of appearing, of being compounded, and of decay and dissolution, should not disintegrate and disappear? There can be no such possibility. ----- N: We are also very much attached to our life as this individual, and it is hard to let go. ------- > "Bhikkhus, in this Teaching, this Doctrine and Discipline, he who > is heedfully vigilant will be able to escape from the round of > repeated rebirths and make an end of dukkha." > > Han: I read the above passage with sadness in my mind, but with a > resolution that I would follow his instructions and that his > instruction will not go in vain. ------- N: I am not ready yet to be liberated from samsara, since I cling to rebirth, to life. But it is pa~n~naa that will eventually understand the danger and disadvantage of samsara. ------ Nina. #123122 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 9-mrt-2012, om 19:47 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I guess the controversial part is whether having the conceptual > understanding that experiences now are vipaka and not > circumstantially-based can reduce the degree of proliferations and > extended akusala reactions. It seems to me that having that correct > perspective could cause one to tolerate the present experiences in > a different way. ------ N: I am enjoying your dialogue with Sarah, very helpful. Yes, you expressed this very well. I would say: it certainly helps for a moment when there is wise attention to an the object. At a next moment we may have unwise attention and feel sad, annoyed, depressed. We cannot expect anything and it is unpredictable what will happen next. Sarah: <...entertaining thoughts of how horrible everything is and how it may not ever change or get better, with a lot of akusala namas as a consequence..> Yes, in case of disease or thinking of someone in coma, I thought of that. Not continuing the story, but also that is conditioned, and it is a 'worthy' object of satipa.t.thaana. ------- Nina. #123123 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recollecting by comparison (2) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind remarks. Your comments are always very helpful for me. > > Han: I read the above passage with sadness in my mind, but with a resolution that I would follow his instructions and that his instruction will not go in vain. > Nina: I am not ready yet to be liberated from samsara, since I cling to rebirth, to life. But it is pa~n~naa that will eventually understand the danger and disadvantage of samsara. Han: I am also not ready yet for final liberation. But what I meant was, if my father advised me to do something just before his death, it would be my duty to try to follow his advice to my utmost ability. Whether I can achieve something will, as you said, depend on pa~n~naa that will eventually understand the danger and disadvantage of samsara. with metta and respect, Han p.s. I will post my third and last installment shortly. #123124 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Sarah: <...entertaining thoughts of how horrible everything is and > how it may not ever change or get better, with a lot of akusala namas > as a consequence..> > Yes, in case of disease or thinking of someone in coma, I thought of > that. Not continuing the story, but also that is conditioned, and it > is a 'worthy' object of satipa.t.thaana. Just wondering about this - if you are saying that the "story" about what is happening is a worthy object of satipatthana...? Not sure how that would work. I think I might have misunderstood what you are saying here. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #123125 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:20 am Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Sarah (and Yawares), > > ----- > <. . .> > > S: It was interesting that not having any children was the result of such evil deeds! > ----- > > KH: In my experience childlessness has been a great blessing. I think this is one of many examples where the Buddha's conventional descriptions of dhammas can be seen to be tailored to fit the audience's values rather than to have some "conventional truth" in their own right. > > Not that I have anything against children! :-) Do you think the results of kamma vary in type depending on the cultural values one is born with or into? So in your case your "evil deeds" would have been rewarded by having a bunch of kids to take care of... :-) Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #123126 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:22 am Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace epsteinrob Hi again, Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Ken H. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah (and Yawares), > > > > ----- > > <. . .> > > > S: It was interesting that not having any children was the result of such evil deeds! > > ----- > > > > KH: In my experience childlessness has been a great blessing. I think this is one of many examples where the Buddha's conventional descriptions of dhammas can be seen to be tailored to fit the audience's values rather than to have some "conventional truth" in their own right. > > > > Not that I have anything against children! :-) > > Do you think the results of kamma vary in type depending on the cultural values one is born with or into? > > So in your case your "evil deeds" would have been rewarded by having a bunch of kids to take care of... :-) You could have named your eldest child "Unpleasant Vipaka." Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #123127 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:14 am Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace kenhowardau Hi Robert K, --- > RK: do you think it is the result of kusala kamma to be barren or sterile? --- KH: No, but I don't think it is the result of akusala kamma either. The result of kamma is vipakka citta. Barren or sterile people are concepts, and not the result of anything. ------------ > RK: These cases are different from someone who does not wish chidren and stays celibate. ------------ KH: Are they different from someone who dies in childbirth, or whose child grows up to be a psychopath? Wouldn't such a person wish they had been barren or sterile? Ken H #123128 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:44 am Subject: Recollecting by comparison (3) hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, I am presenting some passages from DN 16 Mahaaparinibbaana sutta that touch my heart or that arouse keen interest in me. The paragraph numbers are from Paa.li Pi.taka, and the translation is by Burma Pi.taka Association. After the Buddha had eaten the food offered by Cunda, the goldsmith's son, a severe illness came upon the Buddha, a severe attack of dysentery with discharge of blood, and he suffered excessive pain near unto death. This the Buddha endured with mindfulness and deliberation, and without being perturbed. He then proceeded towards Kusinara on foot. On the way: 191. Atha kho bhagavaa maggaa okkamma yena a~n~natara.m rukkhamuula.m tenupasa"nkami; upasa"nkamitvaa aayasmanta.m aananda.m aamantesi "i"ngha me tva.m, aananda, catuggu.na.m sa"nghaa.ti.m pa~n~napehi, kilantosmi, aananda, nisiidissaamii"ti. "Eva.m, bhante"ti kho aayasmaa aanando bhagavato pa.tissutvaa catuggu.na.m sa"nghaa.ti.m pa~n~napesi. Nisiidi bhagavaa pa~n~natte aasane. Nisajja kho bhagavaa aayasmanta.m aananda.m aamantesi "i"ngha me tva.m, aananda, paaniiya.m aahara, pipaasitosmi, aananda, pivissaamii"ti. 191. Then the Bhagava left the road and went to the foot of a tree. And he said to the Venerable Ananda, "Ananda, fold my double-layered robe fourfold and place it on the ground. I am exhausted; I shall sit down." The Venerable Ananda said, "Very well, Venerable Sir," and folding the (Bhagava's) double-layered robe in four, placed it on the ground. The Bhagava sat down on the folded robe laid on the ground and said, "Ananda, go and bring drinking water. I am thirsty. I want to have a drink of water." Han: I could visualize the Buddha trudging along the road, sitting down on the roadside with exhaustion, and asking for water to drink. During the prime of his life, it is said that the Buddha possesses the strength of ten Chaddanta-elephants. However, on the last day of his life, on his last journey from Pava to Kusinaaraa, a distance of about three gaavutas (a little more than six miles), he had to sit down in about twenty-five places owing to his weakness and illness. [The Buddha and His Teachings, by Naarada Thera, page 254] Again, the sa.mvega I get is that even the Buddha, the foremost among the human beings, devas and brahmas, cannot bring back his youthful strength when he gets old. ---------- Han: Although Lord Buddha was to pass away soon, he continued teaching his followers from his deathbed till his last breath. He told them how the Buddha is to be honoured, the Four Sacred Places, the discourse on King Mahaasudassana, and he admitted the wanderer Subhadda to the Order. Finally he uttered his famous last words: 218. Atha kho bhagavaa bhikkhuu aamantesi "handa daani, bhikkhave, aamantayaami vo, vayadhammaa sa"nkhaaraa appamaadena sampaadethaa"ti. Aya.m tathaagatassa pacchimaa vaacaa. 218. Then the Bhagava said to the bhikkhus: O Bhikkhus, I say this now to you: "All conditioned and compounded things (sankhara) have the nature of decay and disintegration. With mindfulness endeavour diligently (to complete the task)" These were the last words of the Tathagata. Han: Please note the words (to complete the task) within brackets. This is important. In "appamaadena sampaadethaa", "appamaadena" means "heedfulness" or "mindfulness." This is straightforward. But "sampaadethaa" is more than just "endeavour diligently" or "strive on untiringly." "sampaadeti" means to strive, to try to accomplish one's aim [PTS dictionary]. So, there must be an aim or a task to complete. The task of a bhikkhu (bhikkhu kicca) is complete only when he becomes an Arahant. So, in accordance with the exhortation by the Buddha, a bhikkhu must try to complete his task of becoming an Arahant by striving diligently with appamaada. ---------- Han: After the mahaaparinibbaana of the Buddha, the verses spoken by Brahmaa Sahampati, Sakka, Ven Anuruddha, Ven Aananda are also very touching. The verse by Brahmaa Sahampati directly hits on the main theme of my presentation, i.e., recollecting by comparison. The verse by Sakka starting with "anicca vata sankhara" is the phrase often used in Theravada Buddhist lands to announce the death of a loved one. 220. xxx Parinibbute bhagavati saha parinibbaanaa brahmaasahampati ima.m gaatha.m abhaasi "Sabbeva nikkhipissanti, bhuutaa loke samussaya.m; Yattha etaadiso satthaa, loke appa.tipuggalo; Tathaagato balappatto, sambuddho parinibbuto"ti. 220. xxx When the Bhagava passed away, at the moment of his passing away, the Sahampati Brahma recited this verse: "Even such an incomparable person as the Self-Enlightened Tathagata, the Teacher endowed with Ten Strengths (consisting of his perfect comprehension in ten fields of knowledge), has to pass away in this world. All beings in this world must inevitably give up the aggregate of mental and physical phenomena." ---------- 221. Parinibbute bhagavati saha parinibbaanaa sakko devaanamindo ima.m gaatha.m abhaasi "Aniccaa vata sa"nkhaaraa, uppaadavayadhammino; Uppajjitvaa nirujjhanti, tesa.m vuupasamo sukho"ti. 221. When the Bhagava passed away, immediately on his passing away, Sakka, King of the devas, recited this verse: "All conditioned and compounded things (sankhara) are indeed impermanent. Arising and decay are inherent in them. Having come into existence, they cease. The realization of Nibbana on their cessation is blissful peace." ---------- 222. Parinibbute bhagavati saha parinibbaanaa aayasmaa anuruddho imaa gaathaayo abhaasi "Naahu assaasapassaaso, .thitacittassa taadino; Anejo santimaarabbha, ya.m kaalamakarii muni. "Asalliinena cittena, vedana.m ajjhavaasayi; Pajjotasseva nibbaana.m, vimokkho cetaso ahuu"ti. 222. When the Bhagava passed away, immediately on his passing away, the Venerable Anuruddha recited these Verses: "The craving-free Sage has passed away, intent on the peace of Nibbana. There is no more inhalation or exhalation of breath of the Buddha, he who had a steadfast mind and equanimity. "The Buddha endured his physical suffering with an unshaken mind. Like a flame extinguished, the mind of that Buddha has found release." ---------- 223. Parinibbute bhagavati saha parinibbaanaa aayasmaa aanando ima.m gaatha.m abhaasi "Tadaasi ya.m bhi.msanaka.m, tadaasi lomaha.msana.m; Sabbaakaaravaruupete, sambuddhe parinibbute"ti. 223. When the Bhagava passed away, immediately on his passing away, the Venerable Ananda recited this verse: "When the Enlightened One, replete with all noble qualities, passed away, then at that moment there occurred the fearsome great earthquake; then at that moment there occurred the hair-raising, goose flesh-causing great earthquake." ---------------- The End of my presentation. with metta and respect, Han #123129 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:30 am Subject: Re: indifferent feeling, was:Delisting announcement #9 epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > -------- > N: Indifferent feeling can accompany kusala citta, akusala citta, > vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. We have to know what type of citta it > accompanies. This is not easy at all. Is "indifferent feeling" unattached no matter what the citta is? > Moreover, the moments of vipaaka are so short, they have gone already > when we think about the vipaaka. Mostly there are already akusala > javana cittas in the process with lobha, dosa and moha, reacting to > vipaaka. We believe that it is still vipaaka, but in reality akusala > cittas have arisen already. That is very interesting and good to think about. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #123130 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:32 am Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ------- <. . .> > RE: Do you think the results of kamma vary in type depending on the cultural values one is born with or into? ------- KH: I think the conventional descriptions, or similes, will vary from culture to culture. ---------------- > RE: So in your case your "evil deeds" would have been rewarded by having a bunch of kids to take care of... :-) ---------------- KH: Admittedly there aren't many cultures where childlessness is seen as a plus. In the world that I can see, however, we have seven billion people, and we have sustainable resources for about one billion. I think childlessness is the only responsible decision anyone can take in those circumstances. I'm glad I took that decision. But that's just me. And who cares what I think? :-) Ken #123131 From: "norbert_jakaoemo" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:43 pm Subject: Small introduction norbert_jaka... Hi Everyone, my name is Norbert Jakaoemo. I'm 39yrs and for the last 10 months i'm living in Suriname. I came in contact with vipassana in 2004 and have been practicing ever since. I just finished the dutch version of vipassana in the daily life from Nina. I must express my immens gratitude for this book to Nina! Thank you, Nina! It has awakened in me the understanding of developing panna by eradicating sakyaditthi and realising anicca in everything, here and now. It all clicked suddenly. This is how i came to know about this studygroup. I hope i can ask questions in dutch because my technical english is not that developed. I also wish that everybody realise the Dhamma and is able to apply's it in his or her life. May all come out of this mis-believe of self and find peace and happiness throu wisdom by realising the Dhamma! #123132 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:33 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert K, > > --- > > RK: do you think it is the result of kusala kamma to be barren or sterile? > --- > > KH: No, but I don't think it is the result of akusala kamma either. > > The result of kamma is vipakka citta. Barren or sterile people are concepts, and not the result of anything. > > ------------ Dear Ken Thanks for the lesson, I guess I have misunderstood some Dhamma points, Perhaps you can point out some further errors that I no doubt till cling to. If someone is born man or women is that due to their kamma or is that not the result of anything? I had the idea that rupa could be conditioned by kamma -kammajarupa? In the Majjhima Nikaaya 135 The Shorter Exposition of Kamma (Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta). Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Saavatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapi.n.dika's Park. 2. "Master Gotama, what is the reason, what is the condition, why inferiority and superiority are met with among human beings, among mankind? For one meets with short-lived and long-lived people, sick and healthy people, ugly and beautiful people, insignificant and influential people, poor and rich people, low-born and high-born people, stupid and wise people. What is the reason, what is the condition, why superiority and inferiority are met with among human beings, among mankind?" 3. "Student, beings are owners of kammas, heirs of kammas, they have kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, kammas as their homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings according to inferiority and superiority." 5. "Here, student, some woman or man is a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. If, on the dissolution of the body, after death, instead of his reappearing in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell, he comes to the human state, he is short-lived wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to short life, that is to say, to be a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings. 19. "So, student, the way that leads to short life makes people short-lived, the way that leads to long life makes people long-lived; the way that leads to sickness makes people sick, the way that leads to health makes people healthy; the way that leads to ugliness makes people ugly, the way that leads to beauty makes people beautiful; the way that leads to insignificance makes people insignificant, the way that leads to influence makes people influential; the way that leads to poverty makes people poor, the way that leads to riches makes people rich; the way that leads to low birth makes people low-born, the way that leads to high birth makes people high-born; the way that leads to stupidity makes people stupid, the way that leads to wisdom makes people wise. 20. "Beings are owners of kammas, student, heirs of kammas, they have kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, kammas as their homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings according to inferiority and superiority."_endsutta On your point about barreness or sterility being concepts. I had the idea that when we talk about vipaka that is a concept to? or when we repeatedly say "there is only the present moment" , "there is only dhammas" these were concepts? But of course the word 'dhamma' is used to represent realties that arise? And doesn't sterility refer to some types of rupa? I am sure I will be corrected again about my silly ideas, so its good to learn from you. robert #123133 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace sarahprocter... Dear Ken H & Rob K, --- On Sat, 10/3/12, rjkjp1 wrote: >do you think it is the result of kusala kamma to be barren or sterile? >These cases are different from someone who does not wish chidren and stays celibate. ... S: Yes, I'd been about to answer along similar lines - it would be the result of akusala kamma not to be able to produce eggs or sperm for example, i.e. no conditions for the rupas referred to in such terms. It may also refer to the unpleasant feeling on account of not having children in this case (or most cases) - the response to the akusala kamma. Remember K.Sujin talking about the feelings in relation to kamma results? There may not be any attachment to having children, but that's another matter, isn't it? I was just interested that it was the result of such strong akusala kamma. Metta Sarah > > S: It was interesting that not having any children was the result of such evil deeds! > ----- > KH: In my experience childlessness has been a great blessing. I think this is one of many examples where the Buddha's conventional descriptions of dhammas can be seen to be tailored to fit the audience's values rather than to have some "conventional truth" in their own right. #123134 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Ken) - In a message dated 3/10/2012 4:22:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: You could have named your eldest child "Unpleasant Vipaka." ================================ Well, 'Rahula' mean "fetter"! ;-) [I imagine you had that in mind.] With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123135 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:28 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E, > > ------- > <. . .> > > RE: Do you think the results of kamma vary in type depending on the cultural values one is born with or into? > ------- > > KH: I think the conventional descriptions, or similes, will vary from culture to culture. > > ---------------- > > RE: So in your case your "evil deeds" would have been rewarded by having a bunch of kids to take care of... :-) > ---------------- > > KH: Admittedly there aren't many cultures where childlessness is seen as a plus. > > In the world that I can see, however, we have seven billion people, and we have sustainable resources for about one billion. I think childlessness is the only responsible decision anyone can take in those circumstances. > > I'm glad I took that decision. But that's just me. And who cares what I think? :-) I think your reasoning is fine, and there are many people who are greatly relieved to live their lives without having children, depending on their individual temperament. In terms of Dhamma, what interests me is the possibility that vipaka might be tailored to suit the "unpleasant rupa" framework of the individual's accumulations. For someone who loves chocolate, a world of vanilla would be quite depressing, and vice versa. You seem to think that conventional descriptions of vipaka are just similes. I think they are gross descriptions of the types of rupas involved. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #123136 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 3/10/2012 4:22:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > You could have named your eldest child "Unpleasant Vipaka." > ================================ > Well, 'Rahula' mean "fetter"! ;-) [I imagine you had that in mind.] I wasn't aware of that, but that is very fitting! All of our children are beloved fetters to one extent or another... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #123137 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:14 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ---- <. ..> > S: Yes, I'd been about to answer along similar lines - it would be the result of akusala kamma not to be able to produce eggs or sperm for example, ---- KH: In ancient times children were financial assets. In modern times, in the developed world, they are financial liabilities. Eventually attitudes will change (as they have already started to do) and maybe sterility will be regarded as a sign of good vipakka. ------------- > S: i.e. no conditions for the rupas referred to in such terms. ------------- KH: I didn't know there were specific fertility rupas referred to. (There goes my teaching license!) --------------------- <. . .> > S: I was just interested that it was the result of such strong akusala kamma. --------------------- KH: I'm sorry for turning your passing remark into a contentious issue :-) but I refuse to talk about people having vipakka. That could mean telling dying children, for example, that their terrible misfortune was the result of an equally terrible crime committed by them in a previous lifetime. I'm not having any of that. Conditioned dhammas condition other conditioned dhammas; they don't condition people. Ken H #123138 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Small introduction nilovg Dear Norbert, Wellcome to this group. Op 10-mrt-2012, om 12:43 heeft norbert_jakaoemo het volgende geschreven: > Hi Everyone, my name is Norbert Jakaoemo. I'm 39yrs and for the > last 10 months i'm living in Suriname. I came in contact with > vipassana in 2004 and have been practicing ever since. I just > finished the dutch version of vipassana in the daily life from > Nina. I must express my immens gratitude for this book to Nina! > Thank you, Nina! It has awakened in me the understanding of > developing panna by eradicating sakyaditthi and realising anicca in > everything, here and now. It all clicked suddenly. This is how i > came to know about this studygroup. > > I hope i can ask questions in dutch because my technical english is > not that developed. > ------- N: I appreciate your interest. Also my Abhidhamma in Daily Life has been translated and printed in Holland: Abhidhamma in het Dagelijks Leven: www.asoka.nl I do not have spare copies, but maybe you can contact Asoka. Your English seems fine and you will soon learn more in this group. If there is any trouble you can add Dutch and I shall translate these words for the group. Any question is also useful for other people in the group and for the person who answers or tries to answer. It is a reminder to consider the Dhamma more. In case you like books in English I have written, let me know. I have spare copies of these. ----- Nina. #123139 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Give me a quote' (and I'll ignore it): Greatest Hits. nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 10-mrt-2012, om 22:16 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Yes, in case of disease or thinking of someone in coma, I thought of > > that. Not continuing the story, but also that is conditioned, and it > > is a 'worthy' object of satipa.t.thaana. > > Just wondering about this - if you are saying that the "story" > about what is happening is a worthy object of satipatthana...? Not > sure how that would work. I think I might have misunderstood what > you are saying here. ------ N:Continuing the story is just thinking, a citta that thinks, and it is a conditioned dhamma, not self. It can be object of awareness since it is real. The story itself is not a reality. ------ Nina. #123140 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 8-mrt-2012, om 15:17 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > > D: you may say in all suttas you will find a message concerning > sila and/ or samadhi and/ or panna... > But that wasn't the point I objected ( see above) > Following extracts from Anguttara Nikaya , trsl. Sister > Upalavanna , related to mother and father > A.N. II > > 34. Bhikkhus, I say, you cannot repay two persons. Who are the two? > It is mother and father. ... > -------- N: I am glad you quote texts about respect due to one's parents. This is a meritorious deed classified as siila. Kh Sujin in her book on meritorious deeds quotes the same suttas. All such texts help us to see that it is citta which is the source of deeds through body, speech and mind. Citta has to be understood as it is, a conditioned dhamma, so that we do not take our good deeds for self. > ----------- > Quotes: S. : Defilements are akusala dhammas, unwholesome realities, which arise with the citta, they cause the citta to be impure. The eradication of defilements is wholesome, this causes the citta to be pure. The meritorious action which is apacaayana, that is, paying respect to those who deserve it, stems from the citta which is wholesome, kusala. We read in the Gradual Sayings ( I, Book of the Threes, Ch XV, 149, Homage): Monks, there are these three kinds of homage. What three? Homage done with body, speech and mind. These are the three.... W. : I have no doubt as to homage through the body, but how does one pay homage through speech and through the mind? S. : Homage through speech is just showing respect by ones speech. Paying respect through speech is, for example, speaking words of homage to the Buddha: Namo tassa Bhagavato Arahatto Sammaasambuddhassa, which means: Homage to Him, the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Fully Enlightened One. W. : Apart from paying respect through speech to the Triple Gem, can one also pay respect through speech to other people? S. : Certainly. Respectful and courteous behaviour is a way of showing respect through the body. Speech which is polite, gentle and kind is a way of paying respect through speech. W. : By such behaviour and speech we can find out what the nature of the citta is at that moment. ------ S. : The fact that people find a certain kind of behaviour polite and another kind not, depending on their different nationality and culture, is caused by different ways of thinking, education and training. But the respect one shows stems from the nature of the citta. If the citta is kusala citta with respect, no matter what kind of behaviour one assumes, according to the manners or custom of whatever nationality, in whatever language, we can see the characteristic of respect expressed by a persons behaviour. S. : At the moment the citta is coarse it means that there is no happiness. Even though a person does not yet give expression to rudeness through body or speech, he is not able to make someone else whom he meets or who is close happy. This shows us that a person whose citta is coarse has no mettaa, loving kindness, for someone else. Because when the citta is coarse, a person cannot be intent on making someone else happy, or on giving assistance or helping him so that he is free from distress. If the citta has a high degree of coarseness there will be behaviour and speech which is not polite, not gentle, without thoughtfulness and kindness. He will cause unhappiness and distress to someone else who has to face such behaviour and speech. It is evident that one hurts or harms someone else and causes his unhappiness by different kinds of akusala kamma, such as killing him or causing harm to his body, taking away his possessions, sexual misbehaviour with regard to his wife or children and other evil deeds. Even unwholesome deeds and unwholesome speech of a lesser degree which originate from the citta which is harsh are bound to disturb the happiness of other people. If someone has mettaa for others and if he trains himself in politeness and gentleness, he will lessen the strength of the defilement of dosa, aversion, the reality which is harsh. Courtesy and gentleness are wholesome qualities which are included in siila, because kusala siila, wholesome moral conduct, subdues and eliminates the defilements which condition evil deeds by body and speech. W. : Thus, each time kusala citta arises it will eliminate the dhammas which condition the different types of akusala cittas. S. : With regard to courtesy, it does not only eliminate dosa, which is harshness of citta, it also eliminates conceit, by which one clings to the importance of oneself. ------ N: Kh Sujin stresses time and again metta when speaking about the precepts. When there is mettaa the precepts are followed naturally. This is different from thinking about rules as if they are commandments to be followed. ------- Dieter: > A:N.III Moral faliure > > 118 Bhikkhus, these three are the moral faliures. What three? > > Faliure in virtues, failing to develop the mind and failing to > rectify the view. > > Bhikkhus, what is the failure in virtues? > > Here a certain one destroys living things, takes the not given, > misbehaves in sexual desires, tells lies, slanders, talks roughly > and talks frivolously. Bhikkhus, this is faliure in virtues. > > Bhikkhus, what is failing to develop the mind? > > Here bhikkhus a certain one has a coveting and a hateful mind. > Bhikkhus, this is failing to develop the mind . > > Bhikkhus, what is failing to rectify the view? > > Here bhikkhus, a certain one is with wrong view, a reversed vision; > there are no results for a gift, offering or a sacrifice, there are > no results for good and evil actions, there is no this world or > other world, there is no mother, no father. There are no > spontaneously arisen beings, neither are there recluses and > brahmins who have come to the right path and method and by > themselves realizing this world and the other world declare it. > Bhikkhus, this is failing to rectify the view. > -------- N: In this sutta you quote we find the same conclusion as in the quotes from Kh Sujin's book: know the citta, have no wrong view about citta, it is not self. Develop vipassanaa in order to have right understanding of citta. Rectifying one's view is the tenth meritorious action that can go together with all other nine. ----- Nina. > #123141 From: Alex Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Small introduction norbert_jaka... Hi Nina, Thanks for welcoming me. What i mean to say was that i just finished reading your book: Abhidhamma in daily life (the dutch version). That's how i came to know about this studygroup. I'm reading the questions and answers of the group to get a feeling about the topics. And yes, it's a big help to consider Dhamma more. I'll check your other books also. If i'm interrested I'll let you know. Thanks for the offer.. Norbert #123142 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:36 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > KH: I'm sorry for turning your passing remark into a contentious issue :-) but I refuse to talk about people having vipakka. That could mean telling dying children, for example, that their terrible misfortune was the result of an equally terrible crime committed by them in a previous lifetime. dear Ken what do you think this sutta means: . Majjhima Nikaaya 135 The Shorter Exposition of Kamma (Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta) 5. This is the way that leads to SHORT LIFE, that is to say, to be a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings. 20. "Beings are owners of kammas, student, heirs of kammas, they have kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, kammas as their homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings according to inferiority and superiority."endsutta isn't it better for the child to begin to understand kamma before they die, it may be their last chance. You surely wouldnt tell them that they are dying due to random chance right? robert > > I'm not having any of that. Conditioned dhammas condition other conditioned dhammas; they don't condition people. > > Ken H > ___________ #123143 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:44 pm Subject: Mahakapi-Jataka (Translated from Pali by Dr.C.B. Varma) yawares1 Dear Members, Cold Texas rain and this touching story almost make me cry. ******** The Himalayas are always known for their varieties of flora and fauna. Furthermore, the manifold varieties of flora are known not only for their riches for medicinal purposes but also for their flavour. In the heart of a Himavat there was a large tree, which bore excellent fruits even bigger than the palmyra nuts having exceedingly sweet flavour; lovely hue and fragrance, which no man had ever seen or noticed before. This tree was also the abode of several monkeys; and the Bodhisatta was born as the king of those monkeys. He was much larger in size than his followers; and was more compassionate and virtuous than others. One day, the monkey king noticed that a branch of the tree had grown just over the stream. It alarmed him, because some of the fruits might drop in the stream, which then might get carried away to the man's world; and the men would then certainly come to have all the fruits for themselves. So, he instructed the monkeys not to let any fruit grow on that branch if they wished to enjoy the fruits for a longer period. Though the monkeys tried to follow the instruction of their master, yet, one fruit was left out. That fruit in course of time ripened and developed its fine colour, taste, smell and softness and became loose in its stalk and one day dropped into the stream. Being carried down by the stream it was stuck in the net-work of a fence of a king, who was having fun with his women there. The delightful and delicious aroma of the fruit soon spread all over the place. Its odour was quite different from the women's perfumes and other cosmetics, decorative flowers and garlands or from the intoxicating drinks. It, however, charmed every visitor there. Bewitched with the smell of the fruits the women enjoyed its prolonged inhalations with half-shut eyes. The king, too, was charmed. So, they rolled their eyes all around to look for the source of the fragrance and finally detected it stuck in a net. The fruit was unique for its colour and odour; size and shape; and texture that no man had ever seen or heard before. So, the king got the fruit tested by his experts and having found it non-poisonous, he himself tasted it, and then remarked, "Nothing could surpass the flavour of this fruit". He then ordered his men to hunt for the tree in and around the river-bank which bore the fruit. Soon the king's men found out the tree laden with such luscious and delicious fruits. When they saw the monkeys enjoying those fruits, which their king wanted to have so eagerly, they attacked the monkeys mercilessly with volleys of arrows. Witnessing the approaching attacking royal soldiers the Bodhisatta jumped on a mountain peak, which the other monkeys were not likely to copy. There, in order to save his friends he seized a strong rooted tall cane with his legs and bending it towards the tree jumped back and caught hold of the branch of the tree. He then called upon the other monkeys to use him as a bridge to jump upon the mountain peak. Taking advantage of the situation all the monkeys jumped on the mountain and darted away quickly. The monkey king was, however, terribly bruised and injured by being trampled by his mates when acting as a bridge for them. Soon he swooned. The king watched the flight of the monkeys; and also the plight of the monkey king. He was greatly moved by the exemplification of such insight; courage; valour; and sacrifice, which an animal had just displayed to save the lives of his subjects. The king then ordered his men to delicately bring down the unconscious ape and gently place him on a couch and to render the best possible first aid. When the great monkey regained his consciousness the king asked him to explain as to why did he endangered his life to save his subjects, who were rather meant to serve or sacrifice. Like a guru, he then said, O King! Verily my body is broken But my mind is still sound; I uplifted only those Over whom I exercised my royal powers for so long. And before the king could utter some words of praise for the great monkey; he found him dead. *********** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123144 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Ken) - In a message dated 3/11/2012 7:37:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: dear Ken what do you think this sutta means: . Majjhima Nikaaya 135 The Shorter Exposition of Kamma (Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta) 5. This is the way that leads to SHORT LIFE, that is to say, to be a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings. 20. "Beings are owners of kammas, student, heirs of kammas, they have kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, kammas as their homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings according to inferiority and superiority."endsutta isn't it better for the child to begin to understand kamma before they die, it may be their last chance. You surely wouldnt tell them that they are dying due to random chance right? robert =============================== A thought: One's kamma is a single category of condition for what befalls one, including a shortened life, but is not the sole one. If one is murdered for example, this is largely the result of someone else engaging in evil kamma. That exact event, of course, would not have occurred had the victim not been - also only partly due to her/his kamma - where s/he was at the time of the murder, but the actions of the murderer are major among the contributing conditions. I would doubt, for example, that all those who died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, all those who died during the carpet-bombing of Dresden, and all those who perished in the Holocaust did so largely due to their kamma. The notion of (relative) innocence is not an empty one. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123145 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:02 am Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: I'm sorry for turning your passing remark into a contentious issue :-) but I refuse to talk about people having vipakka. That could mean telling dying children, for example, that their terrible misfortune was the result of an equally terrible crime committed by them in a previous lifetime. > > I'm not having any of that. Conditioned dhammas condition other conditioned dhammas; they don't condition people. Personally I think it's a worthwhile issue to have some contention or discussion about. The words of the Buddha which are very clearly stated in terms of many conventional results of kamma in future lives are either metaphoric as you think they are -- not standing for specific rupas, but merely making up stories about those rupas -- or else they stand for different kinds of rupas that are referred to by these conventional labels. If the latter, then we can discuss in what way such conventional labels refer to specific rupas. Obviously the label is not the rupa no matter what. Rupas are much more specific than any label, and they are momentary as opposed to something that stands fixed or is perceived as a whole object, so those distinctions will stand no matter what. But if "non-fertility" is not just a story about rupas, but is a way of "generally" designating a kind of resultant vipaka -- as I think it is -- then we have a more sensible way of referencing things. We can say that what we think of as a particular kind of result-in-the-world-of-concept is pointing us towards a more specific understanding of those rupas which can then only be gotten by direct understanding, but we can be pointed in the right direction. No one would want to tell a child that their unhappy situation is the result of akusala kamma in a former life, and you are right that this would not be accurate, because ultimately there is no person and no situation, just namas and rupas. But if the cittas of that child were ready to understand how suffering came about, it would not be cruel to teach that child how negative kamma conditions future vipaka. It would in fact be a relief to know that. But there is no reason to tell a child or an adult such a thing if they are not ready or able to understand such a thing. Certainly, in either case, whether or not such labels refer to specific rupas, there is no blame involved, there is simply an understanding of conditionality, and how to get out of the round of akusala results through development of the path. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #123146 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Sarah,all, well, we are still dancing ...;-) you wrote: S: Whatever we read in the suttas, we can be sure it is referring > to the development of insight of realities. This is the mundane > right understanding referred to, not our usual, conventional ideas > about "mother, father" and so on. .... > D: objection, Sarah. > I doubt that you will find support by anyone with a fair knowledge > of the Sutta Pitaka for such statement. ... S: The development of insight of realities, the lokiya path, i.e. the development of satipatthana, is the clear understanding of cittas, cetasikas and rupas - all anicca, dukkha and anatta. So whether we are helping our parents, paying respect to the Buddha, going to work or performing household chores, there is no doubt, no wrong view that life consists of anything other than cittas, cetasikas and rupas. The usual, conventional ideas on the other hand are that our parents, our friends, our work and our home actually exist in reality. There is no understanding of dhammas at all. D: Sarah , the Buddha addressed the Wordlings and the Noble Ones. For the former he taught depending on their understanding mundane right view ,plenty of suttas about conventional teaching. So there are two truths , the conventional /mundane and the surpramundane. The the issue of dhammas = phenomena and their reality (Citta,Cetasika,Rupa , i.e. the khandas), is certainly not what the commoner without necessary insights can understand, not to talk about their 'embodiment' in the Law of Dependent Origination) You say: ' The usual, conventional ideas on the other hand are that our parents, our friends, our work and our home actually exist in reality. There is no understanding of dhammas at all' The conventional truth is our social reality .. bloody serious so to say, isn't it? You mean that is not true because in a absolute sense there is the continuous stream of interrelated dhammas ? S: We are discussing the two right views in MN 117 and have confirmed that the commentary to the relevant passage clarifies that "there are two kinds of right view that are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the radical destruction of defilements." So, the fact that it is insight being discussed needs to be kept in mind when we read passages such as the following (and all the good suttas you've quoted): "And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. "* D: I would be interested to read the commentary , do you have a link? I suppose another context . It makes no sense to connect the text above (i.e. mundane right understanding) with "the right view of insight, which investigates formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self" , without that the source MN 117 just say so. S: (As taken from an earlier message #98317 I wrote): ***** >Mother, father etc are used here to counteract the wrong views often referred to (as taken from an earlier message): snip D: I think it is difficult to comment a previous dialogue , but I noted that Mike concluded with ' :> Sorry if this is all a bit muddled. It could be just that I've got a wrong idea about mundane insight--i.e. that it's simple kusala kamma resulting in kusala vipakka and that it CAN have concept as a base. Doesn't sound right to me, though." with Metta Dieter #123147 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:01 am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? Part 1 truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, 1st of all: "Practice in accordance with the Dhamma" does suggest practice. 2nd) Person on stream entry path can be until death which can span dozens of years. During that time one of course develops N8P. Ex: SN25. It says: ""One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry." [Alex: same repeated for dhammanussarin] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.001.than.html Please note: "He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry."" So sotapatti phala can occur at death which can be dozens of years after reaching sotapatti magga. With best wishes, Alex #123148 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:40 am Subject: Friendship can cross any Border! bhikkhu5 Friends: Friendliness can cross any Border! If friendship between animal beings can cross even remote species borders, so can and should we humans also make our kind friendship extend beyond any national, religious, cultural, gender, educational, job, and age border! Only in this very good way, can we establish a society, where we can sleep with the doors open, and dance with the children in our arms. So be it :-) May all creatures, all breathing things, all beings one and all, without exception, experience good fortune only. May they not fall into any harm. Anguttara Nikaya II, 72 With good will for the entire cosmos, cultivate a limitless heart & mind: Beaming above, below, & all around, unobstructed, without trace of hostility. Sutta Nipata I, 8 For one who deliberately & aware develops Universal Friendliness Seeing the fading away of clinging, All chains are worn down & broken. Itivuttaka 27 Let no one deceive another or despise anyone anywhere, or through anger or irritation wish for another to suffer. Sutta Nipata I, 8 I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of all bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend of the many-footed! Anguttara Nikaya 4.67 As I am, so are others... As others are, so am I... Having thus identified self and others, Never Harm anyone, nor have any abused. Sutta Nipata 3.710 Among tigers, lions, leopards & bears I lived in the jungle. No one was frightened of me, nor did I fear anyone. Uplifted by such universal friendliness, I enjoyed the forest. Finding great solace in such sweetly silenced solitude… Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 Train yourself in doing good that lasts and brings happiness. Cultivate generosity, the life of peace, and a mind of infinite universal love. Itivuttaka 22 The 9th mental Perfection is Friendliness (Mettâ ): Just as water refreshes and cleanses both just and unjust persons without discrimination, so does the perfection of friendliness include both friends and foes alike, and doesn't enact any distinction, favouritism, or partiality. <...> Friendship can cross any Border! Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #123149 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:50 am Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace kenhowardau Hi Robert and Howard, ---- <. . .> > RK: what do you think this sutta means: . Majjhima Nikaaya 135 The Shorter Exposition of Kamma (Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta) 5. This is the way that leads to SHORT LIFE, that is to say, to be a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings. ---- RK: You go first, Robert. Tell me what you think a short life means in the Dhamma, and then I'll tell you what I think it means. That will buy me some time to think :-) but I can tell you now it doesn't mean there is a life that lasts longer than a single citta. -------------------- <. . .> > RK: isn't it better for the child to begin to understand kamma before they die, it may be their last chance. -------------------- KH: Of course, but right understanding begins with Abhidhamma terminology. If a child can grasp the idea of present-moment realities then he/she can begin to understand kamma and vipakka. If a child cannot grasp Abhidhamma terminology I don't know what story I would them. You suggest a story of a permanent self that gets its just deserts, Howard suggests a story of a permanent self that is unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't have a preference; both kinds of story have their pros and cons. I do think, however, it would be best not to pretend that the story is an explanation of ultimate reality as taught by the Buddha. Ken H #123150 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:08 am Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ----- <. . .> > RE: Personally I think it's a worthwhile issue to have some contention or discussion about. The words of the Buddha which are very clearly stated in terms of many conventional results of kamma in future lives are either metaphoric as you think they are -- not standing for specific rupas, but merely making up stories about those rupas -- or else they stand for different kinds of rupas that are referred to by these conventional labels. ----- KH: I think I understand what you are saying. But it is not easy; in these discussions I often don't understand what I myself am trying to say. When you say that from one point of view "the suttas are merely making up stories about rupas" I think I know what you mean, and I think that describes my point of view. The suttas talk about all kinds of conventional things, some of which have been rejected by modern scientific thinking. That doesn't worry me because I take them as metaphors in any case. Rightly or wrongly, I understand "barren woman" and "sterile man" to be metaphors. One day science might prove there are no such things and all men and women can potentially have children, but that won't bother me. There will still be desirable sense-door objects and undesirable sense-door objects. The former will be experienced by kusala-vipakka cittas and the latter by akusala-vipaka cittas. --------- > RE: If the latter, then we can discuss in what way such conventional labels refer to specific rupas. --------- KH: Yes, that would be good. When I asked Sarah if there were such things as fertility rupas I was only half joking. I don't think any rupas of that kind have been discussed at DSG, but they might have been. It wouldn't be the first time a discussion has gone completely over my head. ---------------------- > RE: Obviously the label is not the rupa no matter what. Rupas are much more specific than any label, and they are momentary as opposed to something that stands fixed or is perceived as a whole object, so those distinctions will stand no matter what. But if "non-fertility" is not just a story about rupas, but is a way of "generally" designating a kind of resultant vipaka -- as I think it is -- then we have a more sensible way of referencing things. We can say that what we think of as a particular kind of result-in-the-world-of-concept is pointing us towards a more specific understanding of those rupas which can then only be gotten by direct understanding, but we can be pointed in the right direction. -------------------------- KH: That sounds good to me, Robert. Although maybe I would stress that an understanding of ultimate reality comes first and conventional signs of ultimate reality come second. If it was the other way around then conventional science would offer the way out of suffering. But it isn't and it doesn't. ------------- > RE: No one would want to tell a child that their unhappy situation is the result of akusala kamma in a former life, and you are right that this would not be accurate, because ultimately there is no person and no situation, just namas and rupas. But if the cittas of that child were ready to understand how suffering came about, it would not be cruel to teach that child how negative kamma conditions future vipaka. It would in fact be a relief to know that. But there is no reason to tell a child or an adult such a thing if they are not ready or able to understand such a thing. -------------- KH: I agree entirely. ----------------------------- > RE: Certainly, in either case, whether or not such labels refer to specific rupas, there is no blame involved, there is simply an understanding of conditionality, and how to get out of the round of akusala results through development of the path. ------------------------------ KH: Exactly! And understanding of conditionality *is* the way out. It *is* development of the path. Ken H #123151 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/11/2012 6:50:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: You suggest a story of a permanent self that gets its just deserts, Howard suggests a story of a permanent self that is unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. =============================== No such thing, Ken. Your notions, not mine and I'm quite sure not Robert's. Boy, Ken, the Buddha would have some time with you!! With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123152 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace kenhowardau Hi Howard, ----- <. . .> >> KH: You suggest a story of a permanent self that gets its just deserts, Howard suggests a story of a permanent self that is unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. >> > H: No such thing, Ken. Your notions, not mine and I'm quite sure not Robert's. Boy, Ken, the Buddha would have some time with you!! ----- KH: Sorry, Howard, that was just my shorthand. In my way of speaking, anything that is thought to exist, but which is not a nama or rupa, is categorised as a permanent self. In the explanation you recommended for children, someone was harmed by someone else, whereas in the explanation recommended by RK, someone was harmed as a result of their own akusala kamma. What was that "someone" if not a permanent self? I'm not saying you believe in the ultimate reality of a personal self – that's another matter – I am just saying your story had a permanent self in it. It wasn't a paramatta dhamma so it must have been a permanent self: that's all I am saying. :-) Ken H #123153 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:14 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace rjkjp1 Dear Ken In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert and Howard, > > ---- > <. . .> > > RK: what do you think this sutta means: . > Majjhima Nikaaya 135 > The Shorter Exposition of Kamma > (Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta) > 5. This is the way that leads to SHORT LIFE, that is to say, to be a killer of > living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless > to living beings. > ---- > > KEN: You go first, Robert. Tell me what you think a short life means in the Dhamma, and then I'll tell you what I think it means. > > That will buy me some time to think :-) but I can tell you now it doesn't mean there is a life that lasts longer than a single citta. > > -------------------- The texts talk of momentary and conventional death. When the suttas refer to beings they are using the term in a shorthand to the unending stream of arising and ceasing nama and rupa of various individuals: is there any problem with that? I ask because the last time I discussed with you this point you claimed that all such references were metaphors (no relation to actual events or truth). Do you still think that it is a metaphor or some imaginary story? By the way it might make you feel good to know that Sarah and Sukin both said to me in Bangkok that I was wrong in the last discussion about science. Sukin in particular feels your understanding of Dhamma to be at the highest level it seems. So feel free to disagree. Perhaps we move away from the suttas to the Commentaries. In this message http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/121675 you wrote that KH: It's a dilemma: no one can understand the suttas without expert guidance, and yet modern interpretations are invariably wrong. Fortunately there is a solution, and that is to follow the ancient commentaries. So : The Expositor (p 87), ( commentary of the Abhidhamma ) "Depending on the difference in kamma appear the differences in the destiny of being without legs, with two legs, four legs, many legs, with perception, without perception, with neither perception nor non-perception. Depending on the difference in kamma appear the differences in the birth of beings, high and low, base and exalted, happy and miserable. Depending on the difference in kamma appears the difference in the individual features of beings as beautiful and ugly, highborn or lowborn, well built or deformed. Depending on the difference in kamma appears the difference in worldly conditions of beings, such as gain and loss, fame and disgrace, blame and praise, happiness and misery." So we see the Abhidhamma talks about someone born ugly, just as we see ugly people walking around right? Of course the ugliness is a result of kamma that conditions rupas, right? Or the abhidhamma states that someone blind from birth is born not rooted http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid11.html ""When a human being is born with a patisandhi-citta which is ahetuka, his birth is the result of kamavacara kusala kamma, but the degree of the kusala kamma is less than the kusala kamma which produces a sahetuka patisandhi-citta. People who are born with an ahetuka patisandhi-citta are handicapped from the first moment of life. Eye-sense or ear-sense does not develop or they have other defects."" endquote Do you see any problem talking about beings, or people here? Do you think Nina was using metaphors in her description? robert #123154 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:22 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > That exact event, of course, would not have occurred had the > victim not been - also only partly due to her/his kamma - where s/he was at > the time of the murder, but the actions of the murderer are major among the > contributing conditions. > I would doubt, for example, that all those who died at Hiroshima and > Nagasaki, all those who died during the carpet-bombing of Dresden, and all > those who perished in the Holocaust did so largely due to their kamma. The > notion of (relative) innocence is not an empty one. Did Buddha believe in relative innocence? I don't think so. I don't think there is guilt either, even in kamma, which after all is just another set of conditions created by arising factors that are themselves the product of conditions, as I understand it. But Buddha describes very directly the result of negative kamma as being the direct, not incidental cause, of wealth or poverty, health or illness, and many other factors of the overall life of the person in future lives. Leaving aside the question of whether conventional circumstances are a story about vipaka's rupas or whether they are a gross description of the actual types of rupas experienced, there's not much ground for disputing the Buddha's strong association of kamma with very specific vipaka. We would all like to think that there is an element of chance in being mugged or murdered, and no one wants to blame the victim, but we should be clear about what the actual philosophy is according to the Buddha, and he doesn't seem to back away from saying if you're born sick or deformed or poor, or have a short life, it's because of kamma from previous lives. He doesn't say it is a combination of factors, but gives it a direct relationship. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #123155 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:36 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > Rightly or wrongly, I understand "barren woman" and "sterile man" to be metaphors. One day science might prove there are no such things and all men and women can potentially have children, but that won't bother me. There will still be desirable sense-door objects and undesirable sense-door objects. The former will be experienced by kusala-vipakka cittas and the latter by akusala-vipaka cittas. I think you are right that whatever norms of pleasant or unpleasant may exist at the time that vipaka is experienced, what will not change is that the cittas involved will experience kusala or akusala vipaka that will be pleasant or unpleasant for those cittas. > --------- > > RE: If the latter, then we can discuss in what way > such conventional labels refer to specific rupas. > --------- > > KH: Yes, that would be good. When I asked Sarah if there were such things as fertility rupas I was only half joking. I don't think any rupas of that kind have been discussed at DSG, but they might have been. It wouldn't be the first time a discussion has gone completely over my head. I think that to get an idea of that we would have to understand what the moment-to-moment experience of infertitlity or fertility would entail as arising dhammas. That would be hard to describe or understand in our language since it is not designed for that, but it would involve sensations, thoughts and various rupas that we normally associate with pregnancy, the inability to get pregnant, and various other areas that are associated with it. When you think about how many different rupas and namas intermix with rupas and namas of that "theme" you can understand how only a Buddha could understand the interaction of all those dhammas in any detail. So I guess the Buddha was content to suggest the area that the kamma and vipaka would be operating in, and then leave it to panna to get the details when it is ready. ...We can say that what we think of as a > particular kind of result-in-the-world-of-concept is pointing us towards a more > specific understanding of those rupas which can then only be gotten by direct > understanding, but we can be pointed in the right direction. > -------------------------- > > KH: That sounds good to me, Robert. Although maybe I would stress that an understanding of ultimate reality comes first and conventional signs of ultimate reality come second. If it was the other way around then conventional science would offer the way out of suffering. But it isn't and it doesn't. I guess the way I see it is that gradually we start seeing that the conventional areas are concepts that are just giving a suggestion of the specific rupas and namas involved, and then as panna and sati get more discerning, they can start to see what's really involved. > ----------------------------- > > RE: Certainly, in either case, whether or not such labels refer to specific rupas, > there is no blame involved, there is simply an understanding of conditionality, > and how to get out of the round of akusala results through development of the > path. > ------------------------------ > > KH: Exactly! And understanding of conditionality *is* the way out. It *is* development of the path. Good point. A little scary to have so much agreement in this discussion, but I appreciate your comments and the exchange. :-) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = #123156 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > robert > =============================== > A thought: One's kamma is a single category of condition for what > befalls one, including a shortened life, but is not the sole one. If one is > murdered for example, this is largely the result of someone else engaging in > evil kamma. That exact event, of course, would not have occurred had the > victim not been - also only partly due to her/his kamma - where s/he was at > the time of the murder, but the actions of the murderer are major among the > contributing conditions. > I would doubt, for example, that all those who died at Hiroshima and > Nagasaki, all those who died during the carpet-bombing of Dresden, and all > those who perished in the Holocaust did so largely due to their kamma. The > notion of (relative) innocence is not an empty one. > > +++++++= dear Howard , I would estimate that those who died in dresden or holocaust or chidren who die young, die mainly due to kamma done in the past, although it is true other conditions are needed to support the past kamma bearing fruit. To be born human is the result of a rare kusala kamma done in some life. But also there are the countless akusala kamma waiting, like a everpresent circling vulture, to give results. I am surprised that I wake up in the morning, considering the aeons of akusala that I accumulated. So this life is soooo short and so rare as a human, but still only one life among the billions of lives in the trillions of aeons.. No one who has any understanding of kamma would ever feel guilty or that they were 'bad' becuase they now suffer the results of past akusala. understanding never works that way. just the same as no one could blame holocaust victims.. robert #123157 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:47 pm Subject: Robert K belives in a permanent self? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert and Howard, > > ---- > <. . .> > > RK: what do you think this sutta means: . > Majjhima Nikaaya 135 > The Shorter Exposition of Kamma > (Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta) > 5. This is the way that leads to SHORT LIFE, that is to say, to be a killer of > living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless > to living beings. > ---- > > Ken: You suggest a story of a permanent self that gets its just deserts, > > I don't have a preference; both kinds of story have their pros and cons. I do think, however, it would be best not to pretend that the story is an explanation of ultimate reality as taught by the Buddha. > > Ken H > Dear Ken You claim I believe or tell stories about permanent selves. My position is, I believe , in line with Dhamma, where conventional words such as beings, people, are used to refer to namas and rupas. You wrote earlier that http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudyg.../message/117100 KH: It's true that [the Buddha}gave conventional examples of dana, sila and bhavana, but I believe they were purely metaphorical. ++++++++ The Buddha was not being metaphorical when talking about giving,for instance. He was referring to the processes of cittas, and the various countless rupas, that arise and pss away during an act of giving. That is why Dhamma is taught using concepts, why the Abhidhamma so often talks about beings and people. No one with an iota of right view could be confused about this elementary point. But for some reason on dsg your beliefs are held up as a high level of insight. Robert You can swim all day in the Sea of Knowledge and still come out completely dry. Most people do. ~Norman Juster #123158 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > It wasn't a paramatta dhamma so it must have been a permanent self: that's all I am saying. :-) > > Ken H > Dear Ken, It is not at all needed to believe in a permanent self when talking about beings, men or momen. Here is a quote from Nina's book on Rupas: """With regard to the femininity-faculty (itthindriyam) and the masculinity-faculty (purisindriyam), which are collectively called bhavarupa or sex, these are rupas produced by kamma from the first moment of our life and throughout life. Thus, it is due to kamma whether one is born as a male or as a female. The "Atthasalini" (II, Book II, Ch III, 322) explains that birth as a male and birth as a female are different kinds of vipaka. Being born as a human being is kusala vipaka, but since good deeds have different degrees also their results have different degrees. Birth as a female is the result of kusala kamma which is of a lesser degree than the kusala kamma which conditions birth as a male. "endquote No problem with that right? or you think it is metaphorical?? robert #123159 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:34 pm Subject: knowing the future rjkjp1 Nasruddin, the wise sufi mullah, was sitting on the outside of branch of a large tree and cutting the branch close to the tree trunk. A passersby said "stop doing that or you will fall after the branch is cut". Nasruddin shook his head and kept sawing. After a few minutes the branch was sawed through and Nasruddin crashed to the ground, along with the branch. He exclaimed "Find that man! He can tell the future!" Soon in dsg someone will chime in and say...... "Dhamma is all about the present moment". "We cant even tell our own cittas" "Please quote suttas or commentaries" The best topics are about what is happening now." "I like reminders about the present cittas (other Dhamma topics are nonsense)." robert Deep wisdom (saying any of the below): Present moment! be aware now. its all anatta. cittas only namas and rupas no self. #123160 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:49 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace rjkjp1 Exactly correct RobertE. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Howard. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > That exact event, of course, would not have occurred had the > > victim not been - also only partly due to her/his kamma - where s/he was at > > the time of the murder, but the actions of the murderer are major among the > > contributing conditions. > > I would doubt, for example, that all those who died at Hiroshima and > > Nagasaki, all those who died during the carpet-bombing of Dresden, and all > > those who perished in the Holocaust did so largely due to their kamma. The > > notion of (relative) innocence is not an empty one. > > Did Buddha believe in relative innocence? I don't think so. I don't think there is guilt either, even in kamma, which after all is just another set of conditions created by arising factors that are themselves the product of conditions, as I understand it. But Buddha describes very directly the result of negative kamma as being the direct, not incidental cause, of wealth or poverty, health or illness, and many other factors of the overall life of the person in future lives. > > Leaving aside the question of whether conventional circumstances are a story about vipaka's rupas or whether they are a gross description of the actual types of rupas experienced, there's not much ground for disputing the Buddha's strong association of kamma with very specific vipaka. > > We would all like to think that there is an element of chance in being mugged or murdered, and no one wants to blame the victim, but we should be clear about what the actual philosophy is according to the Buddha, and he doesn't seem to back away from saying if you're born sick or deformed or poor, or have a short life, it's because of kamma from previous lives. He doesn't say it is a combination of factors, but gives it a direct relationship. > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - > #123161 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:01 pm Subject: Re: Robert K belives in a permanent self? rjkjp1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudyg.../message/117100 > KH: It's true that > [the Buddha}gave conventional examples of dana, sila and bhavana, but I believe they were > purely metaphorical. > ++++++++ Dear Ken 'from Nina Kindred Sayings I, Sagaathaaagga, 3, Sword suttas, 25, the Arahat (B.B. Connected Discourses): Q ..."If a bhikkhu is an arahant, Consummate, with taints destroyed, One who bears his final body, He might still say, 'I speak', And he might say,'They speak to me.' Skilful, knowing the world's parlance, He uses such terms as mere expresions." ---- Note: Q Vohaaramattena so vohareyya. Spk: "Although arahants have abandoned talk that implies belief in a self, they do not violate conventional discourse by saying,'The aggregates eat, the aggregates sit, the aggregates' bowl, the aggregates' robe'; for no one would understand them.".. .robert #123162 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:30 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace sarahprocter... Dear Rob K, I'm glad to see your active participation and it's good to discuss and clarify the various issues as you're doing with Ken. Just one side note - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > By the way it might make you feel good to know that Sarah and Sukin both said to me in Bangkok that I was wrong in the last discussion about science. Sukin in particular feels your understanding of Dhamma to be at the highest level it seems. So feel free to disagree. ... S: I don't recall having had a discussion with you on science - it's a topic I have little interest in. I recall that quite a long time ago you and Ken H had a long discussion on list about science and dhamma and when I arrived in Bkk you asked me what I had thought about it. I just responded that I had lost interest in it when it seemed to move away from the Dhamma. That was all as far as I recall. As for levels of understanding, it's quite useless to measure and compare .......just dhammas after all. Understanding, like any other dhamma, arises and falls away immediately by conditions. Metta Sarah ===== #123163 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace sarahprocter... Hi Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > S: Yes, I'd been about to answer along similar lines - it would be the result of akusala kamma not to be able to produce eggs or sperm for example, > ---- > > KH: In ancient times children were financial assets. In modern times, in the developed world, they are financial liabilities. Eventually attitudes will change (as they have already started to do) and maybe sterility will be regarded as a sign of good vipakka. .... S: :) It doesn't matter what the cultural norms are - the results of kusala and akusala kamma remain the same and have no bearing on the cultural or individual perceptions as that oft-quoted Dispeller quote made clear. ... > > ------------- > > S: i.e. no conditions for the rupas referred to in such terms. > ------------- > > KH: I didn't know there were specific fertility rupas referred to. (There goes my teaching license!) > > --------------------- S: In reality, there are no eggs, no sperm, no tall person, no short person, no brain and no heart. However, there are various rupas arising in particular combinations, conditioned by kamma that are taken for such things, just as in reality there's no table or computer, but there are various rupas conditioned by temperature which when seen or touched lead to the illusion of things again. In the case of the "fertility rupas", as we know, the real cause of birth is past kamma resulting in the patisandhi citta, but that's another discussion, isn't it? ... > <. . .> > > S: I was just interested that it was the result of such strong akusala kamma. > --------------------- > > KH: I'm sorry for turning your passing remark into a contentious issue :-) but I refuse to talk about people having vipakka. That could mean telling dying children, for example, that their terrible misfortune was the result of an equally terrible crime committed by them in a previous lifetime. > > I'm not having any of that. Conditioned dhammas condition other conditioned dhammas; they don't condition people. .... S: This is where we thrive on contentious issues, no problem:) You'll see you've now got plenty of work cut out for you, so that's all good. The rest of us can leave it to you and Rob and sit back and relax:-)) No people that have vipakka - no children either. Just kamma cittas, vipaka cittas, kusala, akusala and also rupas conditioned by kamma in these examples of sentient life. In other words, conditioned dhammas conditioning other conditioned dhammas as you rightly say. Metta Sarah ==== #123164 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace nilovg Dear Rob K, Op 12-mrt-2012, om 8:30 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > S: I don't recall having had a discussion with you on science - > it's a topic I have little interest in. ------ N: I do not know much about science, but I remember you had a discussion with a Swedish lady at the foundation and Lodewijk found this very helpful and interesting. ----- Nina. #123165 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:25 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Rob K, > > I'm glad to see your active participation and it's good to discuss and clarify the various issues as you're doing with Ken. > > Just one side note - > Dear Sarah ok we have a different memory " My active participation is already again, as usual, feeling like an waste of my time . In your post to Ken your praise his comment about 'there are only conditioned dhammas". Do you see that someone can say that and still have wrong view. Imagine if the person writing that doubts spontaneous rebirth in a deva world> it shows they cant understand even theoretically about the different types of patisandhi.Yet when I bring this up I get " there are no beings". Regarding my comments on Sukin prasing Kenh, We have posts on dsg praising the "elders", why dont you single out those. In the Niganthsuttam the Buddha said: "The Jains are unbelievers, immoral, shameless and reckless. They are not companions of good men and they exalt themselves and disparage others. The Jains cling to material things and refuse to let go of them. They are rogues, of evil desires and perverse views." AV:150 You see even the suttas singled out people and groups according to their views. Your comment that wisdom rises and falls away immediately is disingenuous or shows some misunderstanding of Dhamma. It is not that one moment someone understands Dhamma deeply, the next that understanding is gone never to appear again. Wisdom is accumulated and passed on moment to moment, as is ignorance. There are great differences in beings and if someone on a discussion list persists in views it can be highlighted. robert > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > > By the way it might make you feel good to know that Sarah and Sukin both said to me in Bangkok that I was wrong in the last discussion about science. Sukin in particular feels your understanding of Dhamma to be at the highest level it seems. So feel free to disagree. > ... > S: I don't recall having had a discussion with you on science - it's a topic I have little interest in. I recall that quite a long time ago you and Ken H had a long discussion on list about science and dhamma and when I arrived in Bkk you asked me what I had thought about it. I just responded that I had lost interest in it when it seemed to move away from the Dhamma. That was all as far as I recall. > > As for levels of understanding, it's quite useless to measure and compare .......just dhammas after all. Understanding, like any other dhamma, arises and falls away immediately by conditions. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #123166 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 11-mrt-2012, om 18:45 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: D: Sarah , the Buddha addressed the Wordlings and the Noble Ones. For the former he taught depending on their understanding mundane right view ,plenty of suttas about conventional teaching. So there are two truths , the conventional /mundane and the supramundane. The the issue of dhammas = phenomena and their reality (Citta,Cetasika,Rupa , i.e. the khandas), is certainly not what the commoner without necessary insights can understand, not to talk about their 'embodiment' in the Law of Dependent Origination) --------- N: I think this need not be a dilemma. Mettaa and respect towards parents have beings, thus, concepts as object. Mettacitta and the kusala citta with respect are paramattha dhammas and these should be known as they are, not my mettaa, my respect. This is important. That is why I quoted texts from Kh S, meritorious deeds. Also the non-ariyan can, thanks to the Dhamma, begin to understand that in the ultimate sense there are no beings who exist. I think Rob K formulated this very well: ------- N: The sutta would not say: pay respect to the five khandhas which are father or mother. This would sound clumsy, no need to repeat all the time that what we take for a person are five khandhas. People had heard the teachings about anattaa. We can understand it in the right way when reading about father and mother. Such a good reminder for daily life. ------- Nina. #123167 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:28 pm Subject: Re: Just checking re concepts and panna jonoabb Hi Rob E (123054) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: My point, as usual, is that if a certain stage is reached at which certain tendencies have been eradicated, and that entails a change in conventional behavior - whatever other contingencies may be involved - it means that there is indeed a correspondence between the dhammas that do or don't arise and the conventional behavior that will no longer take place. If there were no relation at all between the dhammas of the sotapanna and the householder's life, which is conventional, then there would not be any necessary change in the conventional behavior. That is just logical. The obvious conclusion is that the change in dhammas that attends the sotapanna stage is expressed in certain conventional changes. The abstentions that take place on the dhamma level when certain defilements have been eradicated are expressed in conventional abstentions as well. Is there any other way to see this? > =============== J: Let's go back to the texts. In the suttas, it is said that the sotapanna possesses 4 qualities: - confirmed confidence in the Buddha, - confirmed confidence in the Dhamma, - confirmed confidence in the Sangha, - the virtues (sila) that are dear to the noble ones, and that the sotapanna is freed from the possibility of rebirth in the lower realms. Because of the perfection of sila, the sotapanna is incapable of committing akusala kamma patha that would result in birth in one of the lower planes. This is the 'correspondence' that is to be found. It is not a correspondence with conventional behaviour, since there is no fixed behaviour that equates to breach of the different precepts. (For example, a person may effect the death of another, and thus be in breach of the first precept, by speaking on the phone). Even less can the attainment of stream-entry be said to necessarily involve a *change* in conventional behaviour, since, on the basis of the suttas, there are many who were already living lives of good sila before becoming enlightened. The qualities of the sotapanna are explained in SN 55 ('Sotapattisamyutta). For translations of some selected suttas, see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html#sn55 > =============== > RE: That may be true, and will only apply if the conventional behavior involved happened not to manifest for whatever reasons. It does not change the formulaic truth that at stage 'a,' conventional behavior 'a' will no longer manifest. > =============== J: Regarding "the formulaic truth that at stage 'a' [of enlightenment], conventional behaviour 'a' will no longer manifest", for reasons given above I don't think that's a correct statement. What I think can be said is that at each stage of enlightenment, as kilesas are progressively eradicated, deeds motivated/accompanied by those eradicated kilesas is no longer possible. > =============== > RE: Are you saying that there is no new development, but only the re-arising of previous accumulations? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, but I am probably misinterpreting what you said. > =============== J: Of course, development can occur, but only if there is the re-arising of previously accumulated kusala. > =============== > RE: It is still difficult for me to understand how panna which arises in relation to a dhamma would affect cetana that is directed towards a conventional being. Can you help me clarify this? "Not killing an insect" is directed towards a being. How does this occur on the dhamma level? > =============== J: The restraint involved in refraining from killing an insect may well be kusala but does not require panna. It is kusala of the level of sila. If however there is awareness of kusala restraint, then panna will be involved, having the (just fallen away) citta or cetasika as its object. Jon #123168 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:35 pm Subject: Fwd: remembrance in Japan. nilovg Dear Sarah and all interested, Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Van: Miyamoto Tadao > Datum: 12 maart 2012 11:35:33 GMT+01:00 > Aan: Nina van Gorkom > Onderwerp: Antw.: remembrance > > Dear Nina: > > Thank you very much for your mail and for your concern. > > Yesterday, I went to Kesennuma, one of the most severely damaged towns > in Miyagi Prefecture together with Thai people and monks. The whole > event must have been organized by the Thai Embassy in Japan. There > were several dozens of Thai > lay-followers, several Thai monks and a few Mahayana monks. (I've > posted > several pictures of the event on my Facebook (tadao miyamoto)). > > In the morning, a few of them set up a soup-kitchen serving Thai > food for a few hundred residents, who are still in temporary > housing. And in the evening, there was a beautiful/serene Buddhist > ceremony to pay respect to those perished with Tunami. > > I'm retiring at the end of this month, but I will stay at my > Graduate School as a lecturer so my life will not see any change > (other than the fact that my teaching load will increase threefold.) > > I've just came back from Hong Kong to see a few of my ex-students > and going to Seoul, Korea for a few days before school starts; > hence, I'm not able to visit Bangkok for a while. > > I assume that everything is fine and well at your household. > > Take care, and keep in touch, > > tadao > > --- On Mon, 2012/3/12, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tadao, > I just write to tell you that we are thinking of you. We watched > the commemoration of the Tsunami, your Emperor and Empress. How is > life now? Still teaching? > Did you make it to Bgk? > I am also transferring Sarah and Jon's sympathy, they are thinking > of you. > Best wishes, > Nina. > > > Prof. Tadao Miyamoto, Ph.D. > Director of the Research Center > for Language, Brain and Cognition at > the Graduate School of International Cultural Studies > Tohoku University, Kawauchi 41, Aobaku, Sendai 980-8576 JAPAN #123169 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/11/2012 10:09:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ----- <. . .> >> KH: You suggest a story of a permanent self that gets its just deserts, Howard suggests a story of a permanent self that is unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. >> > H: No such thing, Ken. Your notions, not mine and I'm quite sure not Robert's. Boy, Ken, the Buddha would have some time with you!! ----- KH: Sorry, Howard, that was just my shorthand. In my way of speaking, anything that is thought to exist, but which is not a nama or rupa, is categorised as a permanent self. In the explanation you recommended for children, someone was harmed by someone else, whereas in the explanation recommended by RK, someone was harmed as a result of their own akusala kamma. What was that "someone" if not a permanent self? ------------------------------------------------ HCW: The Buddha spoke of people and devas and so on. He also spoke of people being heir to their kamma. This is ordinary talk about interrelated dhammas, none lasting. Folks need to speak normally, Ken, just as you do. I don't know of anyone here who believes in permanent selves, or, for that matter, in momentary selves. --------------------------------------------- I'm not saying you believe in the ultimate reality of a personal self – that's another matter – I am just saying your story had a permanent self in it. ----------------------------------------------- HCW: Where did I tell a story of a permanent self? ---------------------------------------------- It wasn't a paramatta dhamma so it must have been a permanent self: that's all I am saying. :-) ------------------------------------------------ HCW: I didn't find your characterizations useful. I don't assume you meant any harm, though, and it is pleasant speaking with an old-time friend. (My apologies for "person speak" here!!! But don't expect me to speak "more properly" than the Buddha! ;-) ----------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123170 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/12/2012 12:22:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > That exact event, of course, would not have occurred had the > victim not been - also only partly due to her/his kamma - where s/he was at > the time of the murder, but the actions of the murderer are major among the > contributing conditions. > I would doubt, for example, that all those who died at Hiroshima and > Nagasaki, all those who died during the carpet-bombing of Dresden, and all > those who perished in the Holocaust did so largely due to their kamma. The > notion of (relative) innocence is not an empty one. Did Buddha believe in relative innocence? I don't think so. I don't think there is guilt either, even in kamma, which after all is just another set of conditions created by arising factors that are themselves the product of conditions, as I understand it. But Buddha describes very directly the result of negative kamma as being the direct, not incidental cause, of wealth or poverty, health or illness, and many other factors of the overall life of the person in future lives. ----------------------------------------------- HCW: With regard to relative innocence or guilt, I'm referring to the extent to which kamma is primary cause of what occurs. The Buddha may not have used such terminology. But the topic is a legitimate one, and the Buddha certainly discussed what to attribute to kamma. --------------------------------------------- Leaving aside the question of whether conventional circumstances are a story about vipaka's rupas or whether they are a gross description of the actual types of rupas experienced, there's not much ground for disputing the Buddha's strong association of kamma with very specific vipaka. We would all like to think that there is an element of chance in being mugged or murdered, and no one wants to blame the victim, but we should be clear about what the actual philosophy is according to the Buddha, and he doesn't seem to back away from saying if you're born sick or deformed or poor, or have a short life, it's because of kamma from previous lives. ---------------------------------------------- HCW: Not exclusively. --------------------------------------------- He doesn't say it is a combination of factors, but gives it a direct relationship. -------------------------------------------- HCW: He speaks of several principles that affect human events. But if I am wrong, and indeed the Buddha said that whatever befalls one is fully determined by one's own kamma, then I am not a Buddhist. (So sue me.) -------------------------------------------- Best, Rob E. ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123171 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/12/2012 1:14:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: dear Howard , I would estimate that those who died in dresden or holocaust or chidren who die young, die mainly due to kamma done in the past, although it is true other conditions are needed to support the past kamma bearing fruit. To be born human is the result of a rare kusala kamma done in some life. But also there are the countless akusala kamma waiting, like a everpresent circling vulture, to give results. I am surprised that I wake up in the morning, considering the aeons of akusala that I accumulated. So this life is soooo short and so rare as a human, but still only one life among the billions of lives in the trillions of aeons.. No one who has any understanding of kamma would ever feel guilty or that they were 'bad' becuase they now suffer the results of past akusala. understanding never works that way. just the same as no one could blame holocaust victims.. robert ================================= I also think that what comes to one is heavily influenced by kamma, most especially the realm and conditions of ones birth. In the examples I gave, however, and in the case of aggression, and especially of murder, most of the time I would attribute the lion's share of active causality to the intentions and actions of "the perpetrators." Moreover, in the case of evil actions, I would not hesitate to use the word 'guilt'. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123172 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:46 am Subject: The Two Brothers [ presented by 'fabianfred'@ Dhamma Wheel ] yawares1 Dear Members, I like this long story very much, but I THINK that the big brother might attain sodapattipala, NOT ARAHANTSHIP! Please tell me what you think. **************** The Two Brothers In ancient India after the passing away of the Buddha, there were once two brothers in their twenties, who agreed to set off for a journey of a lifetime so that they could learn the dhamma from different teachers, and they aimed to settle down with the teacher who could teach them to understand the most profound dhamma. After two months of travelling, they reached a small farm house which was quite remote from the next village. It was dusk and the two brothers had no choice but to ask the owner of the farm to let them spend a night there and they would leave early in the morning. The two brothers were rather surprised to find out that there was no man there at all. The farm was owned by a middle age mother and her beautiful daughter in her early twenties who appeared to be strong and tough and agreed to let them spend a night in the farm house with a few of their animals. The two men got up at the crack of dawn, washed themselves by the well and were about to leave after they had thanked the two women. The daughter had already been up and was milking the cows. She saw the men and shouted for them to come to see her. "If you two are not in a rush, my mother would like you to stay for breakfast before you leave. She is preparing a meal right now," the young woman said to the men smilingly while still milking the cow. The younger brother felt reluctant and was about to refuse, but the elder brother quickly agreed to the kind invitation before he could say anything. He was annoyed at his elder brother but kept quiet. A while later, the two men and two women were having breakfast, and engaged in some small talk. At one point, the mother paused briefly, went into a deep thought, and said: "Why don't you two men stay here and work for me in the farm. My husband died a few years ago and we never had a son. It is sure good that this daughter of mine is tough and strong. We were thinking of selling the farm and moving into the town instead, but if you can work for us, we won't have to sell the farm." Whilst the younger brother remained silent, a way to refuse the woman's request, the elder brother asked more questions about the arrangement. To the younger brother's horror, the elder brother finally agreed to what the woman suggested. When they both had a chance to be alone, the younger brother said angrily to his elder sibling: "I cannot believe you. We have agreed to set off on this journey to find the ultimate enlightenment and you are willing to give up that holy ambition the first sign you have the opportunity to be with a beautiful girl and all her wealth. This is just very convenient, isn't it? I cannot believe how weak my brother is and I am very disappointed in you. How can you treasure all these worldly values more than your own spiritual salvation?" The elder brother listened to his brother with an amazingly calm reaction. He did not answer back nor did he try to explain why he chose to stay behind. He remained silent and let his brother get everything off his chest while he was listening. Then, it was time to say goodbye. The younger brother had no choice but to leave his elder brother behind. "All right, it looks like whatever I said cannot change your mind. You have made your choice to live a family life. Remember how the Buddha said that life is suffering. I am sure you'll soon find out. Well, we'll see when we'll see, I suppose. Good luck and goodbye, brother." The elder brother also wished for his younger sibling to find the best dhamma teacher so that he could achieve his spiritual goal. After twenty years had gone by, the young traveller was now a Buddhist monk and he had visited many famous meditation schools and learnt from many well known dhamma teachers. His spiritual knowledge had been widened by meeting people with his own interests and reciting a great deal of famous sutras. However, he still had not yet settled down in a particular monastery. For some reason, he still had a need to search for something better. He then travelled nearer to the place where he and his brother had stopped some twenty years before. He was intrigued to find out how his brother's family life was, so he decided to drop in for a visit. It was a great delight to his elder brother to have a chance to see his young sibling again. The brother invited his brother the monk to a small hut a good fifty yards from the main house and they both sat down for a chat just like old times. The monk was rather intrigued and his first question was: "What is this place?" "Well, this is where I live." The brother answered calmly as usual. The monk was even more surprised because inside the hut barely had anything but one small bed enough for one person. He could not wait for further explanation. The brother knew exactly what was going through the monk's mind and quickly said: "Well, look at you, brother. You look so radiant in your robe. Now, please tell me first of your adventure. Did you finally find a good teacher who helped you to understand the profound dhamma?" Once that question was raised, the monk could not help to boast about his experience in meeting many well known dhamma teachers and taking part in reciting the profound sutras. He was also very keen to recite the sutras to his brother to show him that he had learnt a great deal during these twenty years. The brother calmly and carefully listened to what his brother told him without any interruption. After a long monologue, the monk asked his brother: "How about you, brother? How many children do you have? Or are you already a grandfather? Now, you tell me about your family life." The elder brother smiled gently and said: "Well, it was you who assumed that I was going to marry that young beautiful tough woman twenty years ago. In fact, when her mother talked about letting us stop and work here on that morning at the breakfast table, I did not think anything other than helping out these two women. Life would be very difficult without a man to take care of this farm for them. I had never thought about marrying her, but I knew you could not understand so I let you think as you did. Once you left the farm, I went back to the house and had a good talk with the mother and daughter. I told them that I had always wanted to be a monk once I could find a good teacher. Therefore, I made a deal with them that I would help them out as long as they would leave me alone to do my own things. They have kept the deal up until today. We have become very good friends. In fact, the mother passed away about three years ago and now there are only the daughter and myself here. I never had any intention to marry that beautiful young girl. That's why I built myself this little hut here where I have lived ever since." The monk gasped with amazement once his brother told him his story up to this point. He reluctantly asked: "Brother, you are telling me that you have been working side by side with that beautiful woman all these years and you have never wanted to be more than just friends with her? It is rather difficult for me to believe, I must admit. The reason I left here twenty years ago was because I knew I wouldn't be able to resist that pretty young woman. I counted it a blessing that my passion for enlightenment was stronger. It was also you who decided to stay behind so, there was no point for both of us to fight for one woman, was there? But I was so sure that no sooner had I left this farm that you would quickly agree to marry her." "You know now that you were very wrong. Of course, my passion for enlightenment was no less than yours. At that time, I just thought to myself that in fact, if I really wanted to pursue the dhamma practice, there should not be anything to stop me, no matter where I was and what kind of livelihood I led. Maybe with a bit of determination, I could make it work out both ways. That's why I thought I could help this family out as well as carrying on with my dhamma practice," the elder brother explained. "Please tell me the truth then brother. Did you never have any feelings for that young enchanting woman all these years? Did you never make any wrong move and give in to your burning desire?" asked the monk with great curiosity. "I wouldn't have been a human if I did not have moments when I wanted to bow down to my temptations. We are men after all; man's sexual desire is indeed much more powerful than woman's. In fact, there were countless times when I wanted to give in to my burning desire and ask her to marry me. That would have made her mother very happy too, but I always remembered what you had reminded me before you left. Life is suffering and I should work hard for my own salvation. I bit my tongue and on I carried. Strangely enough, I seem to have survived until now." The monk became more and more intrigued of how his brother could manage to carry out such an extraordinary way of life. "Now, you must tell me how exactly you practised your dhamma to make you survive all these years," asked the monk. "Well, I practised only one thing. I watched my mind. No matter what I was doing during the day and night, as long as I was awake, I was constantly watching my mind all the time. Of course, it was more difficult when I had to work side by side with that exceptionally pretty woman. I had to work extremely hard in my heart. I often had to come back to this cottage and lick the wounds. It was very painful but I was so determined to win my inner battle. When I was really desperate for help, I recited, "Buddha, Buddha, please help me." It was extremely difficult during the early years but after a while I seemed to learn something by just watching my mind in this way. I could see a certain pattern of how the mind would flare up and calm down after a while as long as I had my awareness. Once I could understand how the mind worked, I faced my next battle with a little bit more confidence as life was progressing. I also kept on with my basic meditation skills. Every night before I slept, I would sit in meditation and be aware of my breathing. This had helped me a great deal in fighting the battle during the day. I must admit that my inner battle has calmed down. In fact, it has eased off quite a lot during this past couple of years. I have more calm moments than not. Well brother, this is what I've been doing all these years." The elder brother talked to his brother monk in a very calm and peaceful manner as if there was nothing extraordinary about it. The brother monk then suddenly realised that while he was busy travelling and learning to recite the profound sutras and meeting different famous teachers, his brother had literally gone through the real life battle and used the dhamma to fight his way through life. He also realised that what his brother had done was in fact a million times harder than what he himself had done. He began to suspect that his brother might have reached some level of holiness. So, he asked his brother the straightforward question: "Brother, has your search for ultimate enlightenment come to an end?" The elder brother looked at his younger sibling with kindness and slowly nodded his head as the answer to his question. The brother monk quickly went down on his knees, paid great respect to his brother and said with overwhelming delight: "I have finally found the teacher, brother!" ************** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares #123173 From: "norbert_jakaoemo" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:24 am Subject: Re: The Two Brothers [ presented by 'fabianfred'@ Dhamma Wheel ] norbert_jaka... Hi Yawares, I don't know what the big brother attained, but it's a wonderful story:-) Sadu sadu sadu.. Thanks for posting it!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Yawares Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Members, > > I like this long story very much, but I THINK that the big brother might attain sodapattipala, NOT ARAHANTSHIP! Please tell me what you think. > **************** > > The Two Brothers > > In ancient India after the passing away of the Buddha, > there were once two brothers in their twenties, who agreed to > set off for a journey of a lifetime so that they could learn > the dhamma from different teachers, and they aimed to settle > down with the teacher who could teach them to understand > the most profound dhamma. After two months of travelling, > they reached a small farm house which was quite remote from > the next village. It was dusk and the two brothers had no > choice but to ask the owner of the farm to let them spend > a night there and they would leave early in the morning. > The two brothers were rather surprised to find out that there > was no man there at all. The farm was owned by a middle > age mother and her beautiful daughter in her early twenties > who appeared to be strong and tough and agreed to let them > spend a night in the farm house with a few of their animals. > The two men got up at the crack of dawn, washed > themselves by the well and were about to leave after they > had thanked the two women. The daughter had already been > up and was milking the cows. She saw the men and shouted for > them to come to see her. > > "If you two are not in a rush, my mother would like > you to stay for breakfast before you leave. She is preparing > a meal right now," the young woman said to the men smilingly > while still milking the cow. > > The younger brother felt reluctant and was about to > refuse, but the elder brother quickly agreed to the kind > invitation before he could say anything. He was annoyed at > his elder brother but kept quiet. A while later, the two men > and two women were having breakfast, and engaged in some > small talk. At one point, the mother paused briefly, went into > a deep thought, and said: > > "Why don't you two men stay here and work for me in > the farm. My husband died a few years ago and we never had > a son. It is sure good that this daughter of mine is tough and > strong. We were thinking of selling the farm and moving into > the town instead, but if you can work for us, we won't have > to sell the farm." > > Whilst the younger brother remained silent, a way to > refuse the woman's request, the elder brother asked more > questions about the arrangement. To the younger brother's > horror, the elder brother finally agreed to what the woman > suggested. When they both had a chance to be alone, the > younger brother said angrily to his elder sibling: > "I cannot believe you. We have agreed to set off on > this journey to find the ultimate enlightenment and you > are willing to give up that holy ambition the first sign you have > the opportunity to be with a beautiful girl and all her wealth. > This is just very convenient, isn't it? I cannot believe how > weak my brother is and I am very disappointed in you. How > can you treasure all these worldly values more than your own > spiritual salvation?" > > The elder brother listened to his brother with > an amazingly calm reaction. He did not answer back nor did > he try to explain why he chose to stay behind. He remained > silent and let his brother get everything off his chest while he > was listening. Then, it was time to say goodbye. The younger > brother had no choice but to leave his elder brother behind. > "All right, it looks like whatever I said cannot change > your mind. You have made your choice to live a family > life. Remember how the Buddha said that life is suffering. > I am sure you'll soon find out. Well, we'll see when we'll > see, I suppose. Good luck and goodbye, brother." > The elder brother also wished for his younger sibling > to find the best dhamma teacher so that he could achieve > his spiritual goal. > > After twenty years had gone by, the young traveller > was now a Buddhist monk and he had visited many famous > meditation schools and learnt from many well known > dhamma teachers. His spiritual knowledge had been widened > by meeting people with his own interests and reciting a great > deal of famous sutras. However, he still had not yet settled > down in a particular monastery. For some reason, he still had > a need to search for something better. He then travelled > nearer to the place where he and his brother had stopped > some twenty years before. He was intrigued to find out how > his brother's family life was, so he decided to drop in > for a visit. It was a great delight to his elder brother to have > a chance to see his young sibling again. The brother invited > his brother the monk to a small hut a good fifty yards from > the main house and they both sat down for a chat just > like old times. The monk was rather intrigued and his first > question was: "What is this place?" > "Well, this is where I live." The brother answered calmly > as usual. > > The monk was even more surprised because inside > the hut barely had anything but one small bed enough for > one person. He could not wait for further explanation. The > brother knew exactly what was going through the monk's > mind and quickly said: > > "Well, look at you, brother. You look so radiant in your > robe. Now, please tell me first of your adventure. Did you > finally find a good teacher who helped you to understand > the profound dhamma?" > > Once that question was raised, the monk could not > help to boast about his experience in meeting many well known > dhamma teachers and taking part in reciting the profound > sutras. He was also very keen to recite the sutras to his brother > to show him that he had learnt a great deal during these > twenty years. The brother calmly and carefully listened to what > his brother told him without any interruption. After a long > monologue, the monk asked his brother: > "How about you, brother? How many children do you > have? Or are you already a grandfather? Now, you tell me > about your family life." > > The elder brother smiled gently and said: > "Well, it was you who assumed that I was going to > marry that young beautiful tough woman twenty years ago. > In fact, when her mother talked about letting us stop and > work here on that morning at the breakfast table, I did not > think anything other than helping out these two women. Life > would be very difficult without a man to take care of this > farm for them. I had never thought about marrying her, but > I knew you could not understand so I let you think as you did. > Once you left the farm, I went back to the house and had > a good talk with the mother and daughter. I told them that > I had always wanted to be a monk once I could find a good > teacher. Therefore, I made a deal with them that I would help > them out as long as they would leave me alone to do my own > things. They have kept the deal up until today. We have become > very good friends. In fact, the mother passed away about > three years ago and now there are only the daughter and > myself here. I never had any intention to marry that beautiful > young girl. That's why I built myself this little hut here where > I have lived ever since." > > The monk gasped with amazement once his brother > told him his story up to this point. He reluctantly asked: > "Brother, you are telling me that you have been working > side by side with that beautiful woman all these years and > you have never wanted to be more than just friends with her? > It is rather difficult for me to believe, I must admit. The reason > I left here twenty years ago was because I knew I wouldn't > be able to resist that pretty young woman. I counted it > a blessing that my passion for enlightenment was stronger. > It was also you who decided to stay behind so, there was no > point for both of us to fight for one woman, was there? But > I was so sure that no sooner had I left this farm that you > would quickly agree to marry her." > > "You know now that you were very wrong. Of course, > my passion for enlightenment was no less than yours. At that > time, I just thought to myself that in fact, if I really wanted > to pursue the dhamma practice, there should not be anything > to stop me, no matter where I was and what kind of > livelihood I led. Maybe with a bit of determination, I could > make it work out both ways. That's why I thought I could > help this family out as well as carrying on with my dhamma > practice," the elder brother explained. > > "Please tell me the truth then brother. Did you never > have any feelings for that young enchanting woman all these > years? Did you never make any wrong move and give in to > your burning desire?" asked the monk with great curiosity. > "I wouldn't have been a human if I did not have > moments when I wanted to bow down to my temptations. We > are men after all; man's sexual desire is indeed much more > powerful than woman's. In fact, there were countless times > when I wanted to give in to my burning desire and ask her > to marry me. That would have made her mother very happy > too, but I always remembered what you had reminded > me before you left. Life is suffering and I should work hard > for my own salvation. I bit my tongue and on I carried. > Strangely enough, I seem to have survived until now." > The monk became more and more intrigued of how > his brother could manage to carry out such an extraordinary > way of life. > > "Now, you must tell me how exactly you practised your > dhamma to make you survive all these years," asked the monk. > "Well, I practised only one thing. I watched my mind. > No matter what I was doing during the day and night, as long as > I was awake, I was constantly watching my mind all the time. > Of course, it was more difficult when I had to work side by side > with that exceptionally pretty woman. I had to work extremely > hard in my heart. I often had to come back to this cottage and > lick the wounds. It was very painful but I was so determined > to win my inner battle. When I was really desperate for help, > I recited, "Buddha, Buddha, please help me." It was extremely > difficult during the early years but after a while I seemed to > learn something by just watching my mind in this way. I could > see a certain pattern of how the mind would flare up and > calm down after a while as long as I had my awareness. Once > I could understand how the mind worked, I faced my next > battle with a little bit more confidence as life was progressing. > I also kept on with my basic meditation skills. Every night > before I slept, I would sit in meditation and be aware of my > breathing. This had helped me a great deal in fighting the > battle during the day. I must admit that my inner battle has > calmed down. In fact, it has eased off quite a lot during this > past couple of years. I have more calm moments than not. > Well brother, this is what I've been doing all these years." > The elder brother talked to his brother monk in a very > calm and peaceful manner as if there was nothing extraordinary > about it. > > The brother monk then suddenly realised that while > he was busy travelling and learning to recite the profound > sutras and meeting different famous teachers, his brother had > literally gone through the real life battle and used the dhamma > to fight his way through life. He also realised that what his > brother had done was in fact a million times harder than what > he himself had done. He began to suspect that his brother > might have reached some level of holiness. So, he asked his > brother the straightforward question: > "Brother, has your search for ultimate enlightenment > come to an end?" > > The elder brother looked at his younger sibling > with kindness and slowly nodded his head as the answer > to his question. The brother monk quickly went down on > his knees, paid great respect to his brother and said with > overwhelming delight: > "I have finally found the teacher, brother!" > > ************** > Love Buddha's dhamma, > yawares > #123174 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:29 am Subject: Re: The Two Brothers [ presented by 'fabianfred'@ Dhamma Wheel ] yawares1 Dear Norbert, Thanks for reading my story. yawares --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norbert_jakaoemo" wrote: > > Hi Yawares, I don't know what the big brother attained, but it's a wonderful story:-) Sadu sadu sadu.. Thanks for posting it!! > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Yawares Sastri" wrote: > > > > Dear Members, > > > > I like this long story very much, but I THINK that the big brother might attain sodapattipala, NOT ARAHANTSHIP! Please tell me what you think. > > **************** > > > > The Two Brothers > > > > In ancient India after the passing away of the Buddha, > > there were once two brothers in their twenties, who agreed to > > set off for a journey of a lifetime so that they could learn > > the dhamma from different teachers, and they aimed to settle > > down with the teacher who could teach them to understand > > the most profound dhamma. After two months of travelling, > > they reached a small farm house which was quite remote from > > the next village. It was dusk and the two brothers had no > > choice but to ask the owner of the farm to let them spend > > a night there and they would leave early in the morning. > > The two brothers were rather surprised to find out that there > > was no man there at all. The farm was owned by a middle > > age mother and her beautiful daughter in her early twenties > > who appeared to be strong and tough and agreed to let them > > spend a night in the farm house with a few of their animals. > > The two men got up at the crack of dawn, washed > > themselves by the well and were about to leave after they > > had thanked the two women. The daughter had already been > > up and was milking the cows. She saw the men and shouted for > > them to come to see her. > > > > "If you two are not in a rush, my mother would like > > you to stay for breakfast before you leave. She is preparing > > a meal right now," the young woman said to the men smilingly > > while still milking the cow. > > > > The younger brother felt reluctant and was about to > > refuse, but the elder brother quickly agreed to the kind > > invitation before he could say anything. He was annoyed at > > his elder brother but kept quiet. A while later, the two men > > and two women were having breakfast, and engaged in some > > small talk. At one point, the mother paused briefly, went into > > a deep thought, and said: > > > > "Why don't you two men stay here and work for me in > > the farm. My husband died a few years ago and we never had > > a son. It is sure good that this daughter of mine is tough and > > strong. We were thinking of selling the farm and moving into > > the town instead, but if you can work for us, we won't have > > to sell the farm." > > > > Whilst the younger brother remained silent, a way to > > refuse the woman's request, the elder brother asked more > > questions about the arrangement. To the younger brother's > > horror, the elder brother finally agreed to what the woman > > suggested. When they both had a chance to be alone, the > > younger brother said angrily to his elder sibling: > > "I cannot believe you. We have agreed to set off on > > this journey to find the ultimate enlightenment and you > > are willing to give up that holy ambition the first sign you have > > the opportunity to be with a beautiful girl and all her wealth. > > This is just very convenient, isn't it? I cannot believe how > > weak my brother is and I am very disappointed in you. How > > can you treasure all these worldly values more than your own > > spiritual salvation?" > > > > The elder brother listened to his brother with > > an amazingly calm reaction. He did not answer back nor did > > he try to explain why he chose to stay behind. He remained > > silent and let his brother get everything off his chest while he > > was listening. Then, it was time to say goodbye. The younger > > brother had no choice but to leave his elder brother behind. > > "All right, it looks like whatever I said cannot change > > your mind. You have made your choice to live a family > > life. Remember how the Buddha said that life is suffering. > > I am sure you'll soon find out. Well, we'll see when we'll > > see, I suppose. Good luck and goodbye, brother." > > The elder brother also wished for his younger sibling > > to find the best dhamma teacher so that he could achieve > > his spiritual goal. > > > > After twenty years had gone by, the young traveller > > was now a Buddhist monk and he had visited many famous > > meditation schools and learnt from many well known > > dhamma teachers. His spiritual knowledge had been widened > > by meeting people with his own interests and reciting a great > > deal of famous sutras. However, he still had not yet settled > > down in a particular monastery. For some reason, he still had > > a need to search for something better. He then travelled > > nearer to the place where he and his brother had stopped > > some twenty years before. He was intrigued to find out how > > his brother's family life was, so he decided to drop in > > for a visit. It was a great delight to his elder brother to have > > a chance to see his young sibling again. The brother invited > > his brother the monk to a small hut a good fifty yards from > > the main house and they both sat down for a chat just > > like old times. The monk was rather intrigued and his first > > question was: "What is this place?" > > "Well, this is where I live." The brother answered calmly > > as usual. > > > > The monk was even more surprised because inside > > the hut barely had anything but one small bed enough for > > one person. He could not wait for further explanation. The > > brother knew exactly what was going through the monk's > > mind and quickly said: > > > > "Well, look at you, brother. You look so radiant in your > > robe. Now, please tell me first of your adventure. Did you > > finally find a good teacher who helped you to understand > > the profound dhamma?" > > > > Once that question was raised, the monk could not > > help to boast about his experience in meeting many well known > > dhamma teachers and taking part in reciting the profound > > sutras. He was also very keen to recite the sutras to his brother > > to show him that he had learnt a great deal during these > > twenty years. The brother calmly and carefully listened to what > > his brother told him without any interruption. After a long > > monologue, the monk asked his brother: > > "How about you, brother? How many children do you > > have? Or are you already a grandfather? Now, you tell me > > about your family life." > > > > The elder brother smiled gently and said: > > "Well, it was you who assumed that I was going to > > marry that young beautiful tough woman twenty years ago. > > In fact, when her mother talked about letting us stop and > > work here on that morning at the breakfast table, I did not > > think anything other than helping out these two women. Life > > would be very difficult without a man to take care of this > > farm for them. I had never thought about marrying her, but > > I knew you could not understand so I let you think as you did. > > Once you left the farm, I went back to the house and had > > a good talk with the mother and daughter. I told them that > > I had always wanted to be a monk once I could find a good > > teacher. Therefore, I made a deal with them that I would help > > them out as long as they would leave me alone to do my own > > things. They have kept the deal up until today. We have become > > very good friends. In fact, the mother passed away about > > three years ago and now there are only the daughter and > > myself here. I never had any intention to marry that beautiful > > young girl. That's why I built myself this little hut here where > > I have lived ever since." > > > > The monk gasped with amazement once his brother > > told him his story up to this point. He reluctantly asked: > > "Brother, you are telling me that you have been working > > side by side with that beautiful woman all these years and > > you have never wanted to be more than just friends with her? > > It is rather difficult for me to believe, I must admit. The reason > > I left here twenty years ago was because I knew I wouldn't > > be able to resist that pretty young woman. I counted it > > a blessing that my passion for enlightenment was stronger. > > It was also you who decided to stay behind so, there was no > > point for both of us to fight for one woman, was there? But > > I was so sure that no sooner had I left this farm that you > > would quickly agree to marry her." > > > > "You know now that you were very wrong. Of course, > > my passion for enlightenment was no less than yours. At that > > time, I just thought to myself that in fact, if I really wanted > > to pursue the dhamma practice, there should not be anything > > to stop me, no matter where I was and what kind of > > livelihood I led. Maybe with a bit of determination, I could > > make it work out both ways. That's why I thought I could > > help this family out as well as carrying on with my dhamma > > practice," the elder brother explained. > > > > "Please tell me the truth then brother. Did you never > > have any feelings for that young enchanting woman all these > > years? Did you never make any wrong move and give in to > > your burning desire?" asked the monk with great curiosity. > > "I wouldn't have been a human if I did not have > > moments when I wanted to bow down to my temptations. We > > are men after all; man's sexual desire is indeed much more > > powerful than woman's. In fact, there were countless times > > when I wanted to give in to my burning desire and ask her > > to marry me. That would have made her mother very happy > > too, but I always remembered what you had reminded > > me before you left. Life is suffering and I should work hard > > for my own salvation. I bit my tongue and on I carried. > > Strangely enough, I seem to have survived until now." > > The monk became more and more intrigued of how > > his brother could manage to carry out such an extraordinary > > way of life. > > > > "Now, you must tell me how exactly you practised your > > dhamma to make you survive all these years," asked the monk. > > "Well, I practised only one thing. I watched my mind. > > No matter what I was doing during the day and night, as long as > > I was awake, I was constantly watching my mind all the time. > > Of course, it was more difficult when I had to work side by side > > with that exceptionally pretty woman. I had to work extremely > > hard in my heart. I often had to come back to this cottage and > > lick the wounds. It was very painful but I was so determined > > to win my inner battle. When I was really desperate for help, > > I recited, "Buddha, Buddha, please help me." It was extremely > > difficult during the early years but after a while I seemed to > > learn something by just watching my mind in this way. I could > > see a certain pattern of how the mind would flare up and > > calm down after a while as long as I had my awareness. Once > > I could understand how the mind worked, I faced my next > > battle with a little bit more confidence as life was progressing. > > I also kept on with my basic meditation skills. Every night > > before I slept, I would sit in meditation and be aware of my > > breathing. This had helped me a great deal in fighting the > > battle during the day. I must admit that my inner battle has > > calmed down. In fact, it has eased off quite a lot during this > > past couple of years. I have more calm moments than not. > > Well brother, this is what I've been doing all these years." > > The elder brother talked to his brother monk in a very > > calm and peaceful manner as if there was nothing extraordinary > > about it. > > > > The brother monk then suddenly realised that while > > he was busy travelling and learning to recite the profound > > sutras and meeting different famous teachers, his brother had > > literally gone through the real life battle and used the dhamma > > to fight his way through life. He also realised that what his > > brother had done was in fact a million times harder than what > > he himself had done. He began to suspect that his brother > > might have reached some level of holiness. So, he asked his > > brother the straightforward question: > > "Brother, has your search for ultimate enlightenment > > come to an end?" > > > > The elder brother looked at his younger sibling > > with kindness and slowly nodded his head as the answer > > to his question. The brother monk quickly went down on > > his knees, paid great respect to his brother and said with > > overwhelming delight: > > "I have finally found the teacher, brother!" > > > > ************** > > Love Buddha's dhamma, > > yawares > > > #123175 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Two Brothers [ presented by 'fabianfred'@ Dhamma Wheel ] moellerdieter Dear Yawares , you wrote: 'I like this long story very much, but I THINK that the big brother might attain sodapattipala, NOT ARAHANTSHIP! Please tell me what you think ' I think the story has some doubtful aspects ....but then I may have read it with an overly critical mind . Nevertheless I suppose you appreciate a feedback.. including a bit of carping ;-) " asnip He began to suspect that his brother might have reached some level of holiness. So, he asked his brother the straightforward question: "Brother, has your search for ultimate enlightenment come to an end? The elder brother looked at his younger sibling with kindness and slowly nodded his head as the answer to his question...." D: Recalling that the Buddha stated that liberation of the body is possible without having Dhamma knowledge, but not the liberation of mind, the elder brother could have achieved detachment of the body , but not of the mind . The younger one suspected 'some level of holiness ' but certainly not the Pacceka Buddha which is obviously the rare exception of above. So his agreement with 'has your search for ultimate enlightenment come to an end' ? may be understood that he didn't search anymore (for Nibbana). There is a sutta , in which the Buddha declared a happy married householder to be a stream-enterer. May one say ' unfortunately the elder brother didn't know..'? "The brother monk quickly went down on his knees, paid great respect to his brother and said with overwhelming delight: "I have finally found the teacher, brother!" I tried to imagine a monk of the Bhikkhu Sangha who observes the rules of the Order ( Patimokkha ) going down on his knees and pay respect to an householder . You spent part of your life in Thailand , a Buddhist country , so I wonder whether you have ever seen , read or heard about such event ? If not , I think we do agree that this story has not been composed by a monk, don't we? with Metta Dieter #123176 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 1 moellerdieter Dear Nina and Sarah, you wrote: 'N: I am glad you quote texts about respect due to one's parents. This is a meritorious deed classified as siila. Kh Sujin in her book on meritorious deeds quotes the same suttas. All such texts help us to see that it is citta which is the source of deeds through body, speech and mind. Citta has to be understood as it is, a conditioned dhamma, so that we do not take our good deeds for self. D: Nina , I do not doubt that Khun Sujin is aware of the importance of Sila and teaching according to the understanding of her audience as the Master did. Certainly , when she speaks to her students it will be different from that of persons having at most some sutta knowledge but hardly heard anything about the reality of conditioned dhammas , etc. I quoted the suttas about one's parents to emphasize the two truths of the Tipitaka : mundane /conventional and supramundane /absolute , which is already shown to us by the first Noble Truth. One cannot proclaim the exclusive reality of the latter when still experiencing the former, can one? with Metta Dieter. #123177 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:58 am Subject: Trim Reminder dsgmods Hi All, When replying to another post, please remember to trim any part of the other post that is not necessary for your reply. If the post you are replying to is a recent one, you may assume that other members will have seen it. Trimming saves time and work for those who kindly back up the archives and makes it more convenient for all of us to read posts. It also assists those who print out messages, have limited bandwidth or receive messages in digest form. Also, please make it clear at the outset who is being addressed, even if "All". This makes it easier for everyone to see any names at a quick glance. We appreciate your co-operation. Jon and Sarah PS The full guidelines can be found in the files section. Comments or questions off-list only. Thanks #123178 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace moellerdieter Hi RobertK, all, just beween... you wrote In the Niganthsuttam the Buddha said: "The Jains are unbelievers, immoral, shameless and reckless. They are not companions of good men and they exalt themselves and disparage others. The Jains cling to material things and refuse to let go of them. They are rogues, of evil desires and perverse views." AV:150" I wonder whether it concerns indeed the Jains. The Order of Jains is - as far as I know - still existing, the laity (surname Jain) rather pious. I had a nice (and serious) Jain neighbour for a couple of years , and nowadays a Jain is becoming the CEO of Deutsche Bank . Should above indeed be true we will face a next financial crisis sooner or later... ;-( .. ;-) I recall that the Buddha admonished his disciple not to show disrespect to the followers of other faithes, though not including those ' immoral, shameless and reckless' . Something wrong , a mixture of names ? (below copied from http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/n/niganthaa.htm with Metta Dieter a.. Nigantha The name given to the Jains, the followers of Nigantha Nataputta. Unlike the Acelakas, they wore one garment, a covering in front. But when praised for their modesty, they answered that their reason for wearing a garment was to prevent dust and dirt from falling into their alms dishes. For even dust and dirt are actual individuals and endowed with the principle of life (DhA.iii.489). The Buddhist books record (M.ii.243f.; D.iii.117, 210) that there was great dissension among the Niganthas after the death of Nataputta at Pava. The Commentaries state (DA.iii.906; MA.ii.831) that Nataputta, realizing on his death bed the folly and futility of his teaching, wished his followers to accept the Buddha's teaching In order to bring this about, he taught his doctrine in two different ways to two different pupils, just before his death. To the one he said that his teaching was Nihilism (uccheda), and to the other that it was Eternalism (sassata). As a result, they quarrelled violently among themselves, and the Order broke up. That the Niganthas lasted till, at least, the time of Nagasena, is admitted (Mil.p.4) by the fact that Milinda, was asked to consult a teacher called Nigantha Nataputta, who, if at all historical, was probably the direct successor to the teacher of the same name, contemporary with the Buddha. There is evidence in the Jatakas to show that the Nigantha Order was in existence prior to the life of the Buddha. Saccatapavi, mentioned in the Kunala Jataka (J.v.427), is described as a setasamani, and may well have belonged to the Order of the Svetambaras, while in the Mahabodhi Jataka (J.v.246) mention is made of a teacher who is identified with Nigantha Nataputta himself #123179 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:42 am Subject: Pure Praxis: Neither Theft, nor Fraud! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 8 Training Rules bringing Divinity? The Blessed Buddha once said: The habitual praxis of the observance day endowed with eight features brings high reward and blessing, & is of sublime dignity and greatness. And which are these eight features? In this, any Noble Disciple considers within himself: Throughout their life the Arahats avoid all stealing of others' property and abstain from any cheating. Always waiting till whatever thing is freely and only openly given, free from any thievish intent, they remain intact and pure both in mind & moral! May also I, this day and night, avoid all stealing & not cheat anyone. By that I will follow the traits of these perfected Arahats! I shall then have observed the Uposatha observance day perfectly. With this second praxis is the observance day enriched. Observed in this very way, the observance day endowed with eight features brings high - even divine - reward & blessing & is of sublime dignity and immense greatness... The one, who never takes, what is not freely & openly given, whether long or short, fine or foul, exquisite or ordinary, such one is a Holy One. Dhammapada 409 Behaviour that counts as ways of stealing: Cheating with values, documents, weights or measures, embezzlement, corruption, fraud, misappropriation, robbery, theft, swindling, trickery, forgery, counterfeit, extortion, bribing, blackmail, tax-evasion, false accounting, double book-keeping, over-prizing, pirating, deliberately wrong valuation of assets, & insurance fraud...! <...> Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samâhita _/\_ * <...> #123180 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Two Brothers [ presented by 'fabianfred'@ Dhamma Wheel ] yawares1 Dear Dieter, 'fabianfred' is a monk residing at Wat SriBunRuang, Chiangmai, Thailand (I saw his picture at Dhamma Wheel). Many people @ Dhamma Wheel love his stories( he's a story-teller like me). I must admit that I don't know much about rules of the Order. Thanks for reading my story, yawares --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Dear Yawares , > > > you wrote: > > 'I like this long story very much, but I THINK that the big brother might attain sodapattipala, NOT ARAHANTSHIP! Please tell me what you think ' > > > I think the story has some doubtful aspects ....but then I may have read it with an overly critical mind . > Nevertheless I suppose you appreciate a feedback.. including a bit of carping ;-) > > > " asnip He began to suspect that his brother might have reached some level of holiness. So, he asked his brother the straightforward question: > "Brother, has your search for ultimate enlightenment come to an end? The elder brother looked at his younger sibling with kindness and slowly nodded his head as the answer to his question...." > > > D: Recalling that the Buddha stated that liberation of the body is possible without having Dhamma knowledge, but not the liberation of mind, > the elder brother could have achieved detachment of the body , but not of the mind . > The younger one suspected 'some level of holiness ' but certainly not the Pacceka Buddha which is obviously the rare exception of above. > So his agreement with 'has your search for ultimate enlightenment come to an end' ? may be understood that he didn't search anymore (for Nibbana). > There is a sutta , in which the Buddha declared a happy married householder to be a stream-enterer. May one say ' unfortunately the elder brother didn't know..'? > > > "The brother monk quickly went down on his knees, paid great respect to his brother and said with overwhelming delight: "I have finally found the teacher, brother!" > > > I tried to imagine a monk of the Bhikkhu Sangha who observes the rules of the Order ( Patimokkha ) going down on his knees and pay respect to an householder . You spent part of your life in Thailand , a Buddhist country , so I wonder whether you have ever seen , read or heard about such event ? If not , I think we do agree that this story has not been composed by a monk, don't we? > > > > with Metta Dieter > > > > > #123181 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Two Brothers [ presented by 'fabianfred'@ Dhamma Wheel ] hantun1 Dear Yawares, (1) The elder brother might have become a Sotaapanna. But if that was the case, he could still marry the girl and raise a family. Sotaapanna Visaakhaa, the chief among the female lay disciples of the Buddha, had ten sons and ten daughters, each of whom had a similar number of children. (2) The elder brother could not be an Arahant, because if a layperson becomes an Arahant, he must enter into monk-hood on the same day, or he must enter into parinibbaana on the same day. Please see Milindapa~nha, IV,26. If a Householder Attains Arahantship (VII,2) page 119. (3) The elder brother might have become an Anaagaami. If that was the case, he could not have any sexual relation with any woman. Visaakha, the husband of Dhammadinnaa, after becoming an anaagaami, his behaviour to his wife completely changed, and he had no more sexual relation with his wife. (4) It is unlikely that the younger brother monk would go down on his knees, and pay great respect to his brother, who was a layperson (i.e., not a monk himself). Please see Milindapa~nha, IV,12. "Dhamma is Best" (III,1) page 94. Anyway, thank you very much for posting a very interesting story. with metta and respect, Han #123182 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:12 am Subject: Re: Small introduction sarahprocter... Hi Norbert, Just a quick note to thank you for your nice introduction and to welcome you here! I was interested that you live in Suriname. I used to have some students from Surnimame. Did you come from Holland originally? Your English is fine, so please join in any thread or ask any qus and as Nina said, she can kindly help out with little bits of Dutch if need be! In the DSG files there is a simple Pali/English glossary and it may be helpful to print this out. Also, there is a section called "Useful Posts" which has saved posts under particular topics. Anyway, feel 'at home' and look forward to further discussion. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norbert_jakaoemo" wrote: > > Hi Everyone, my name is Norbert Jakaoemo. ======= #123183 From: Alex Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Small introduction norbert_jaka... Hi Sarah, Originally i come from Suriname but i lived most of my life in Holland. I moved to Suriname to see if I can live here.. I'm happy to find a studygroup and happy to have internet, because I did not find any Theravada student over here. I'm reading the posts and I'm happy to get some help from Nina or anyone else when my englisch is coming short. Google translate is helping me also a lot in developing my english :-). I also feel happy to recieve Dhamma related mails in my inbox. A good reminder of the Dhamma... For now i'm just looking around and developing confidence to ask questions. I'll take a look at the glossery and usefull posts. Thanks for letting me know and sending me this welcome mail. Lots of metta, Norbert 2012/3/12 sarah > ** > > > Hi Norbert, > > Just a quick note to thank you for your nice introduction and to welcome > you here! > > I was interested that you live in Suriname. I used to have some students > from Surnimame. Did you come from Holland originally? > > Your English is fine, so please join in any thread or ask any qus and as > Nina said, she can kindly help out with little bits of Dutch if need be! > > In the DSG files there is a simple Pali/English glossary and it may be > helpful to print this out. > Also, there is a section called "Useful Posts" which has saved posts under > particular topics. > > Anyway, feel 'at home' and look forward to further discussion. > > Metta > > Sarah > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norbert_jakaoemo" > wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone, my name is Norbert Jakaoemo. > ======= > > > #123184 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Two Brothers [ presented by 'fabianfred'@ Dhamma Wheel ] yawares1 Dear Dr.Han Tun, Thank you very much for your answers. I agree with you 100%!! Sincerely, yawares --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Yawares, > > (1) The elder brother might have become a Sotaapanna. But if that was the case, he could still marry the girl and raise a family. > Sotaapanna Visaakhaa, the chief among the female lay disciples of the Buddha, had ten sons and ten daughters, each of whom had a similar number of children. <...> #123185 From: "chandimag1984" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:40 am Subject: About the precept Vikalabhojana (Abstinence from taking food after midday) chandimag1984 Hi Everyone Does any of you have a specific clarification of what the precept Vikalabhojana(Abstinence from taking food after midday) is? In Metta Ven.G.Chandima #123186 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Small introduction sarahprocter... Hi Norbert, Thx for your note as well. Are you working in Suriname? It's wonderful that we can discuss Dhamma from the opposite ends of the world. I'm writing this from Sydney, Australia. Jon and I live partly here and partly in Hong Kong. I received a photo and some Dutch from a google message of yours in my in box. Could you kindly put your photo in the photos album for members on the DSG home-page? Looked like a nice pic. Also anyone else - pls add a pic or an updated one anytime to the member album. We'll so the same! I agree with you that it's important to have friends to discuss the Dhamma with. It doesn't matter if they are in your town or on-line.... it's the considering and understanding of the realities which make up the day that matter! Metta Sarah --- On Tue, 13/3/12, Alex wrote: > Originally i come from Suriname but i lived most of my life > in Holland. I > moved to Suriname to see if I can live here.. I'm happy to > find a > studygroup and happy to have internet, because I did not > find any Theravada > student over here. <...> #123187 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:13 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi RobertK, all, > > just beween... > > you wrote > > In the Niganthsuttam the Buddha said: > "The Jains are unbelievers, immoral, shameless and reckless. They are not companions of good men and they exalt themselves and disparage others. The Jains cling to material things and refuse to let go of them. They are rogues, of evil desires and perverse views." AV:150" > > > > I wonder whether it concerns indeed the Jains. The Order of Jains is - as far as I know - still existing, the laity (surname Jain) rather pious. ++++++++++++ Dear Dieter I just copied and pasted from a sutta. They are the same as far as I know, founded by Nigantha nattaputta, a contemporary of Buddha. . : "clingers of material things.. holders of perverse views " Sounds like a description of most us, I would say.. robert #123188 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace sarahprocter... Dear Rob K, --- On Mon, 12/3/12, rjkjp1 wrote: >Regarding my comments on Sukin prasing Kenh, We have posts on dsg praising the "elders", why dont you single out those. .... S: I had written: "As for levels of understanding, it's quite useless to measure and compare.......just dhammas after all. Understanding, like any other dhamma, arises and falls away immediately by conditions." My comment was in your response to what seemed like a comparing of understanding in yours. I was suggesting that such comparisons are not useful, that was all. Pls ignore my comments if I misunderstood you. "And the measurers measure them, saying: `His stature (Dhammaa) is just this, the other's just that; in what way is one wanting, one exalted?' And that measuring, Ananda, is to the measurers' harm and hurt for many a day." Later the Buddha says further to Ananda: "....But who save the Tathagata can judge this difference? Wherefore, Ananda, be no measurer of persons; measure not the measure of persons. Verily, Ananda, he digs a pit for himself who measures the measure of persons. I alone, Ananda, can measure their measure - or one like me." Migasala Sutta -AN, Bk of 6s,v.44 (PTS, Hare transl) This is quite different from appreciating and praising helpful comments made by anyone - whether friends or Theras, this can be a kind of anumodana. Metta Sarah > > By the way it might make you feel good to know that Sarah and Sukin both said to me in Bangkok that I was wrong in the last discussion about science. Sukin in particular feels your understanding of Dhamma to be at the highest level it seems. So feel free to disagree. #123189 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > He doesn't say it is a combination of factors, but gives it a direct > relationship. > -------------------------------------------- > HCW: > He speaks of several principles that affect human events. But if I am > wrong, and indeed the Buddha said that whatever befalls one is fully > determined by one's own kamma, then I am not a Buddhist. (So sue me.) > -------------------------------------------- I'm sure there are other factors involved, just that Buddha did make direct statements in the sutta quoted earlier and in at least one or more others that I've seen that the reason that life is short, long, sick, well, etc. is due to kamma, and sometimes he talked about specific types of deeds involved. There may be other suttas where he talks about a fuller set of factors. Conditionality must always be involved, so it couldn't just be one causal factor all by itself, I guess. As for being a Buddhist, that is a label. If you follow the basic description of reality and the path that Buddha taught, then you are a follower of The Buddha, I'd say. If you disagree with him on something, I'll leave it to those who accept everything that the Buddha may have said or thought on faith to complain. I don't believe in cloud Gods, which Buddha mentioned as causing the rain, but I'm not too concerned about that. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #123190 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:53 pm Subject: Kusala or Akusala? sarahprocter... Dear Friends, I was listening to a small part of an old discussion with K.Sujin which caught my attention. A Thai friend was asking about repulsiveness contemplation and whether it could be both samatha and vipassana. KS: What's the result of reflection on hair and body parts? X: Calmness KS: Are you sure? It has to be done with panna, sati sampajanna. It doesn't mean that when you recite (on these parts) you'll become calm because it can be lobha. X: And what about if it is to develop vipassana, you have to reflect on dhatus, so repulsive contemplation cannot be the subject of vipassana? KS: That's why I ask about the result of reciting it. X: Oh, I see. So the result of reciting it if with panna - it ends up with calmness. KS: Because it has to be kusala with panna which arises more and more and more so that there is more calm. I think you try to know whether its kusala or whether its called kusala or akusala, but that can't be known just by reading or thinking about the words but at the moment when the citta arises, what level of sati is there or it's not sati and just wanting to recite? Because children can also recite, we can teach them to look at the hair and so on and recite, but what about the understanding? So it's not just wanting to know whether its calm by words or whether kusala by words but the moment when it arises, panna can see or understand whether its kusala or not kusala. **** Metta Sarah ===== #123191 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Rob K, > > --- On Mon, 12/3/12, rjkjp1 wrote: > > >Regarding my comments on Sukin prasing Kenh, We have posts on dsg praising the "elders", why dont you single out those. > .... > S: I had written: "As for levels of understanding, it's quite useless to measure and compare.......just dhammas after all. Understanding, like any other dhamma, arises and falls away immediately by conditions." > > My comment was in your response to what seemed like a comparing of understanding in yours. I was suggesting that such comparisons are not useful, that was all. === dear Sarah thanks, good points. robert #123192 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recollecting by comparison (3) nilovg Dear Han, Thank you very much for your third part of the recollection. We are likely to forget that we have to give up the khandhas. But each moment these are deceasing. The ruupas of the body we had yesterday are no more today, and even the ruupas of a splitsecond ago have gone. Nina. Op 10-mrt-2012, om 23:44 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > 220. xxx When the Bhagava passed away, at the moment of his passing > away, the Sahampati Brahma recited this verse: > > "Even such an incomparable person as the Self-Enlightened > Tathagata, the Teacher endowed with Ten Strengths (consisting of > his perfect comprehension in ten fields of knowledge), has to pass > away in this world. All beings in this world must inevitably give > up the aggregate of mental and physical phenomena." #123193 From: "Christine" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:39 pm Subject: Re: About the precept Vikalabhojana (Abstinence from taking food after midday) christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "chandimag1984" wrote: > > Hi Everyone > > > Does any of you have a specific clarification of what the precept Vikalabhojana(Abstinence from taking food after midday) is? > > In Metta > Ven.G.Chandima > Dear Venerable, This might be of assistance: Buddhist Monastic Code I Chapter 8.4 Pâcittiya: The Food Chapter by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc1/bmc1.ch08-4.html At the very small Dhammagiri Hermitage (part of the Thai Forest Sangha) in Queensland, the Venerable Abbot also allows milk-free dark chocolate and fruit juice for those needing it after midday. With metta Chris #123194 From: "Christine" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:50 pm Subject: Re: About the precept Vikalabhojana (Abstinence from taking food after midday) christine_fo... Dear Venerable, Another link: The Bhikkhus' Rules A Guide for Laypeople compiled and explained by Bhikkhu Ariyesako http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/ariyesako/layguide.html#alms with metta Chris #123195 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:26 pm Subject: Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace kenhowardau Hi Sarah and Robert K, -------------- <. . .> > S: I don't recall having had a discussion with you on science - it's a topic I have little interest in. I recall that quite a long time ago you and Ken H had a long discussion on list about science and dhamma and when I arrived in Bkk you asked me what I had thought about it. I just responded that I had lost interest in it when it seemed to move away from the Dhamma. That was all as far as I recall. ---------------- KH: I agree there was a risk the discussion would move away from the Dhamma. But at the same time it was a discussion that could have revealed a fundamental difference in understanding that was otherwise impossible to pin down. There was a political element to the discussion, which I admit was very bad. I am referring to the extreme right wing practice of forcing schools to replace science-based education (evolution theory) with religion-based education (creationism and intelligent design theory) and denying it was happening. That is, pretending that Creationism and Intelligent Design were actually sciences. I say it was "very bad" because DSG is not the place for that sort of discussion – not because the discussion itself is not good and important in the right place. But, getting back to the fundamental difference in understanding: why are Robert K and I at such an impasse? We both love the Dhamma that is discussed at the Foundation with K Sujin. We both claim to subscribe to it, and yet there is this fundamental difference. As far as I can gather, the discussion you (Sarah) saw as "about science" was actually about this fundamental but hard-to-pin-down difference. Do concepts such as men, women and animals have kamma and vipakka? Should we insist that human beings did not evolve from primitive life forms? Should our schools teach that human beings and animals are created by past kamma? I think that would be a gross misrepresentation of the Dhamma. It would place the Dhamma alongside all the madcap, dangerous, religious superstitions that are plaguing the world. There are no human beings or animals in satipatthana. A superficial reading of the texts would strongly suggest otherwise, but that is whole the point, isn't it? The Dhamma is the opposite of superficial. Ken H #123196 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:59 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: About the precept Vikalabhojana (Abstinence from taking food after midday) dhammasaro Dear Venerable, Good friend Chris is correct. For instance, chocolate without milk is allowable as I was both taught the Royal Thai Wat Bovonieves Vihara and at Wat Thai Washington DC... The general rule is if the fruit is smaller than your fist; you may drink the juice after the noon hour. Illness and for one's health is a different matter... A study of the Pitaka-vinaya is suggested. I am happy to discuss with you; but, off-line of this DSG forum. yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck (former Bhikkhu Dhammasaro) To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Another link: The Bhikkhus' Rules A Guide for Laypeople compiled and explained by Bhikkhu Ariyesako http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/ariyesako/layguide.html#alms <...> #123197 From: Alex Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Small introduction norbert_jaka... Hi Sarah and everybody else, I'm not working yet in Suriname. I just moved over to here to see if it is possible to live simple and not being caught up too much in spiderweb of Europe. So i can have more time to practice and study Dhamma. And being a nature and sun-lover i feel good here. Soon i'll start to work.. I give relaxation/healthtraining, it's a combination of chi-kung, breathingexercises and meditation. The older people love it. So hopefully i can make a living out of it, here in Suriname. I already uploaded a picture of me. And yes, It feels good to get a lot of Dhamma mails. I'm learning so much already and it's feeling good to have some Dhamma friends and guides close to me (in my laptop ;-)) And as far as i can see, there are some qualified teachers in this group. I'm opening myself to recieve all i can. Immens gratitude to you all! I hope to learn a lot and hopefully lateron being able to contribute in the same way to others. Sabba danam dhamma danam jinati! Metta, Norbert 2012/3/12 sarah abbott > ** > > > Hi Norbert, > > Thx for your note as well. Are you working in Suriname? It's wonderful > that we can discuss Dhamma from the opposite ends of the world. I'm writing > this from Sydney, Australia. Jon and I live partly here and partly in Hong > Kong. > > I received a photo and some Dutch from a google message of yours in my in > box. Could you kindly put your photo in the photos album for members on the > DSG home-page? Looked like a nice pic. > > Also anyone else - pls add a pic or an updated one anytime to the member > album. We'll so the same! > > I agree with you that it's important to have friends to discuss the Dhamma > with. It doesn't matter if they are in your town or on-line.... it's the > considering and understanding of the realities which make up the day that > matter! > > Metta > > Sarah > > > --- On Tue, 13/3/12, Alex wrote: > > > Originally i come from Suriname but i lived most of my life > > in Holland. I > > moved to Suriname to see if I can live here.. I'm happy to > > find a > > studygroup and happy to have internet, because I did not > > find any Theravada > > student over here. > <...> > > > #123198 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The story of Bodhirajakumara and His Kokanada Palace upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/13/2012 1:49:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > He doesn't say it is a combination of factors, but gives it a direct > relationship. > -------------------------------------------- > HCW: > He speaks of several principles that affect human events. But if I am > wrong, and indeed the Buddha said that whatever befalls one is fully > determined by one's own kamma, then I am not a Buddhist. (So sue me.) > -------------------------------------------- I'm sure there are other factors involved, just that Buddha did make direct statements in the sutta quoted earlier and in at least one or more others that I've seen that the reason that life is short, long, sick, well, etc. is due to kamma, and sometimes he talked about specific types of deeds involved. There may be other suttas where he talks about a fuller set of factors. Conditionality must always be involved, so it couldn't just be one causal factor all by itself, I guess. ----------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, conditionality of all sorts is involved, and kamma, of course, is a biggie. As for what is said in various suttas, what is emphasized or, at times, the *only* thing spoken of, varies from sutta to sutta depending on context, the point to be made, the person/persons being instructed, and so on. On the face of it, some suttas seems to contradict others occasionally, but I think this is based on matters such a I just described. ---------------------------------------------------------------- As for being a Buddhist, that is a label. If you follow the basic description of reality and the path that Buddha taught, then you are a follower of The Buddha, I'd say. If you disagree with him on something, I'll leave it to those who accept everything that the Buddha may have said or thought on faith to complain. I don't believe in cloud Gods, which Buddha mentioned as causing the rain, but I'm not too concerned about that. --------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: :-) I DO consider myself a follower of the Buddha - and doing the best I can. -------------------------------------------------------------- Best, > Rob E. ==================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #123199 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recollecting by comparison (3) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind comments. Nina: We are likely to forget that we have to give up the khandhas. But each moment these are deceasing. The ruupas of the body we had yesterday are no more today, and even the ruupas of a split second ago have gone. Han: Very true! That is why it is mentioned in Visuddhimagga: Vism VIII, 39. [8]. As to the shortness of the moment [kha.naparittato]: in the ultimate sense the life moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls [that is, touches the ground] only on one point of [the circumference of] its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according as it is said: 'In a past conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a future conscious moment not he did live, not he does live, he will live. In the present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will live. with metta and respect, Han