#125000 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:49 pm Subject: 2007 audio - 19. "Araha.m araha.m" sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, When we recite the Buddha's words, is there any understanding? Can we even say there are kusala cittas? ***** KS: If there is a bead here, what are you going to do with that? Touching it? Han: the bead...If I recollect the Buddha's attributes, I'll say "araha.m*, araha.m..." KS: I see, no understanding.... Han: With understanding. The meaning of "araha.m", I must understand. KS: But at what moment is there understanding of "araha.m"? Han: "Araha.m" - The Buddha has eradicated all defilements. KS: Thinking. That is thinking. Thinking about his virtues. Han: Yes, thinking about his virtues. KS: Thinking about his virtues by one word "araha.m"? Han: Yes. KS: But lots of virtues from that word. Han: Mainly three things from "araha.m": One is the eradication of defilements, second, the Buddha will not do any evil things, even where other people cannot see, then the third one he is worthy of.... KS: And without awareness and right understanding can there be the understanding of citta at that very moment? Han: Understanding will be there. KS: We assume that it is kusala at the moment of touching and saying "araha.m". Anyone can say the word "araha.m". Can we guarantee that at that moment it is kusala citta? Han: It depends on the individual. KS: So it depends on the individual. It doesn't mean that when we speak "araha.m" and then it's kusala citta. Han: Even the same person, the same kusala citta may not arise all the time. KS: So at the moment of doing this, without right understanding and awareness, one cannot say it's kusala. Han: Yes, that I agree. Even in the same person, each time he may not have it. KS: And when it's not kusala, can there be panna? Han: No. ***** *Araha.m Sammasambuddho Bhagava (The Arahant, the Buddha perfected by himself, the Exalted One) Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125001 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:06 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 2, 3. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Renunciation, nekkhamma, is another of the perfections the Buddha had fulfilled. We read in the “Dialogues of the Buddha”, “The Great King of Glory” (Dígha Nikåya XVII), that the Buddha told Ånanda that he was once the Great King of glory in a former life. He was surrounded by all the pleasant things of life, he dwelt in beautiful palaces and had innumerable possessions. The rival kings in the region of the East came to see him and asked him to be their teacher. The Great King of Glory taught them the five precepts. The king was an example of virtue; he also practised dåna, he gave abundantly to those who were in need. He reflected wisely on his wealth and knew that this was the result of previous kusala kamma; the result of generosity in the past, of moderation and of restraint. We read that he could attain the four rúpa-jhånas (absorption concentration of the fine- material sphere) and practised the four Brahma-vihåras (divine abidings). This shows that he did not lead a life of indulgence in sense pleasures and that he was full of wisdom. When the queen thought that the end of his life was drawing near she tried to induce him to cling to life and to his possessions. The king told her that she should not speak thus but that she should address him in a different way. We read: “Thus, O Queen, should you address me-- The nature of all things near and dear to us, O King, is such that we must leave them, divide ourselves from them, separate ourselves from them. Pass not away, O King, with longing in your heart. Sad is the death of him who longs, unworthy is the death of him who longs. Yours, O King, are these four and eighty thousand cities, the chief of which is the royal city of Kusåvatí. Cast away desire for those, long not after life...” We read that the queen wept and shed tears. She then wiped away her tears and spoke to the king as he had told her. The king died full of noble thoughts (the Brahma-vihåras) and was reborn in the world of Brahma. The king had understood that all things in life are impermanent and that he should not cling to them. Although he possessed everything that is pleasant to the senses he was not enslaved to his possessions. He practised renunciation. The understanding that all that is dear to us will not last may be only intellectual understanding acquired through thinking about our life. This kind of understanding cannot achieve detachment from the things we are clinging to. There is a wisdom of a higher level, that is, the wisdom that directly experiences the arising and falling away of nåmas and rúpas appearing through the six doors. When this wisdom has been developed it can finally lead to complete detachment from all nåmas and rúpas. The Buddha had developed this wisdom during his lives as a Bodhisatta. He could not have become a Buddha by only thinking about realities. When he attained enlightenment his wisdom could bring about complete detachment. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125002 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:37 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Lukas She asked if you really want to understand and Sukin and me both vouched for you. So she said it is time to meet. She can come to Europe or you come here....lett's decide soon. I told her about your problems and she said understading is the best thing in life. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > hej Rob K. > > If there will be also opportunity to rise this small request to Acharn. If she would come to Europe again if we would sponsor her trip and accomodation? That's the question > > And by the way: > Because that is easier if she come, because i know not only me want like to meet her , but also Alan and his boys. > And I actually have an opportunity to come in August, but I would rather give this money for her to come, if this is only possible. The rest of accomodation funds, can be arrange i think so. > > Best wishes > Lukas > Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125003 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > (D: arising and falling away are the phenomena/dhammas of the 6senses media ..).... > > S: The Buddha talked repeatedly about the arising and falling away of the khandhas. What are the "6 senses media" if not khandhas? For example, eye-sense arising and falling away now is khandha. Seeing consciousness..... and so on..... all conditioned dhammas, all khandhas. > matter what terms, what labels we use, there are dhammas now arising and falling away which can be known. We can just talk about seeing, visible object, attachment and other dhammas. All that is important is the understanding of them when they appear now > > D: let me bring our understanding to the point: you state no difference between khandhas and the 6 senses media .... S: By "6 senses media" are you referring to the 6 pairs of ayatanas or something else? Khandhas and ayatanas refer to different aspects of paramattha dhammas. They are used to help us understand these realities from different approaches. For example, heat is a rupa. It shares all the characteristics of rupa with all other rupa khandha realities. Each one is different - it arises and falls away never to reappear. All day we cling to that reality, that khandha which has gone. We cling to nothing in effect. Heat is also an ayatana - an outer ayatana or what I think you refer to as "sense media". The ayatanas stress the coming together or meeting of realities. In order for heat rupa to be experienced, there has to be the "meeting" of body sense, heat, body consciousness, contact and other associated mental factors. No self, no being involved at all - just conditioned dhammas. The "miracle" of conditioned dhammas coming together at this moment. So the characteristic of heat, the reality of heat is just heat whether we refer to it as a khandha, an ayatana or a dhatu. However, the Buddha used different ways of description and explanation because he knew that just one kind of description was not enough for most listeners to understand realities as anatta. .... > The issue concerns how we distínguish realities and concepts and I believe this is important in Abhidhamma . .... S: and what the Abhidhamma stresses is the understanding of realities now, such as heat or hardness or thinking - whatever appears now. This is the only way that the confusion about realities and concepts will ever be resolved. ... > > I think there are texts in which the Buddha talked about arising and falling away of the khandhas , ... S: Yes, I've quoted many suttas in this regard. No question about it. This is why the Buddha taught about dhammas as khandhas - to stress the impermanence of each one. ... >one question however is whether it doesn'tt concern the khandha breakdown ( of Dependent Origination ) i.e. temporarily at death or finally (nibbana). ... S: it's all about now, realities now. The Buddha taught us to understand what is real at this very moment. This is the only way that DO, death and so on can be understood. ... > The other is the consideration whether the Buddha distinguished at all between realities and concepts. .... S: Heat is a reality which can be directly known now. 'Butter-jar" is a concept which can only ever be thought about. All the teachings are for understanding, testing out at this moment. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125004 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:06 pm Subject: Re: Broken heart? 4. Fuel? sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > >S: Sujin: "The disciples of the Buddha > > experienced many different ways of living. One knows one has strong lobha as > > long as one is not a sakadaagaamii [at the second stage of enlightenment]. > > Understanding knows what degree it is when it appears." ... > L: I think Alan mentioned one of sotapannas, and falling in love. I told him there was also Sumana, Anatthapindika doughter, she died of broken heart. But we didnt discuss this further. She was sad that her sisters, that were sotapannas, had a successful and happy marridge. She got sad and so depressed that she starved to death. This is possible to sakadagami even. I was so suprised by that. .... S: Ven Dhammadharo liked to refer to this story of Sumana as you know. How strong was the lobha? I don't know. A sotapanna's lobha will not be of the strength that they would break the precepts for sure. The following is the only account of Sumana (from Dhp commentary) with which I'm familiar. It stresses her rebirth in the Tusita realm, so clearly a high degree of kusala kamma before death. It doesn't directly mention a 'broken-heart' here as the disease for which she stopped taking her food, but perhaps that is understood. Anathapindika was a sotapanna, but very distressed about his daughter's death until he listened to the Buddha. ***** THE STORY OF SUMANADEVI ( Verse 18 ) Yamaka Vagga, Khuddaka Nikaya, Suttanta Pitaka THE DHAMMAPADA COMMENTARY Translated by the Department of Pali University of Rangoon, Burma, 1966 Idha nandati, pecca nandati, katapunno ubhayattha nandati. "punnam me katan" ti nandati bhiyyo nandatisuggatim gato. (One who has done good deeds rejoices here and rejoices afterwards too; he rejoices in both places. Thinking "I have done good deeds" he rejoices, he rejoices all the more having gone to a happy existence. Dhammapada, v. 18.) The Master while residing at Jetavana delivered this religious discourse beginning with "Here (in this world) one who has done good deeds rejoices" in connection with Sumanadevi. At Savatthi, two thousand monks used to take their meals daily in the house of Anathapindika and a similar number in the house of the eminent female-devotee Visakha. Whosoever wished to give alms in Savatthi, they used to do so after getting permission of these two. What was the reason for this? Even though a sum of a hundred thousand was spent in charity, the monks used to ask: "Has Anathapindika or Visakha come to our alms-hall ? " If told, "They have not", they used to express words of disapproval saying "What sort of a charity is this ?" The fact was that both of them (Anathapindika and Visakha) knew exceedingly well what the congregation of monks liked, as also what ought to be done befitting the occasion. When they supervised, the monks could take food according to their liking, and so all those who wished to give alms used to take those two with them. As a result, they (Anathapindika and Visakha) could not get the opportunity to serve the monks in their own homes. Thereupon, pondering as to who could take her place and entertain the congregation of monks with food, and finding her son's daughter, Visakha made her take the place. She started serving food to the congregation of monks in Visakha's house. Anathapindika too made his eldest daughter, Mahasubhadda by name, officiate in his stead. While attending to the monks, she used to listen to the Dhamma. She became a Sotapanna and went to the house of her husband. Then he (Anathapindika) put Cullasubhadda in her place. She too acting likewise became a Sotapanna and went to her husband's house. Then his youngest daughter Sumanadevi was assigned the place. She, however, attained the fruition of sakadagami. Though she was only a young maiden, she became afflicted with so severe a disease that she stopped taking her food and wishing to see her father sent for him. Anathapindika received the message while in an alms-house. At once he returned and asked her what the matter was. She said to him, 'Brother, what is it ?' He said, 'Dear, are you talking in delirium?' Replied she, 'Brother, I am not delirious.' He asked, 'Dear, are you in fear?' and she replied, 'No, I am not, brother.' Saying only these words she passed away. Though a Sotapanna, the banker was unable to bear the grief that arose in him for his daughter and after having had the funeral rites of his daughter performed, approached the Master weeping. Being asked: 'Householder, what makes you come sad and depressed, weeping with a tearful face?', he replied, 'Lord, my daughter Sumanadevi has passed away.' 'But, why do you lament? Isn't death common to all beings ?' 'Lord, this I am aware of, but the fact that my daughter, who was so conscious of a sense of shame and fear of evil, was not able to maintain her self-possession at the time of her death and passed away talking in delirium, has made me very depressed.' 'But, noble banker, what was it that she said ?' 'When I addressed her as "Dear Sumana", she said, "What is it, dear brother? "* 'Then when I asked her "Dear, are you talking in delirium ?", she replied "I am not talking in delirium, brother". 'When I asked her "Are you in fear, dear?", she replied "Brother, I am not". Saying this much she passed away.' Thereupon the Master told him, 'Noble banker, your daughter was not talking in delirium.' When asked why she spoke like that, the Master replied, 'It is because of your lower spiritual position; indeed your daughter held a higher position than you did in the attainment of the path (magga) and fruition (phala); you are only a Sotapanna but your daughter was a sakadagami; it was because of her higher position in the attainment of path and fruition that she spoke to you in that way'. The banker asked, 'Is that so Lord ?', and the Master affirmed saying, 'It is so'. When asked, 'Where is she reborn at present?' the Master said, 'In the Tusita heaven, O householder'. Then the banker made this remark, 'Lord, having rejoiced here in this world in the midst of kinsmen, now again, after passing away, my daughter has been reborn in a place of joy'. Thereupon, the Master told him, 'Yes, banker, the diligent, whether they are householders or samanas, surely rejoice in this world as well as in the next', and uttered this stanza. Idha nandati, pecca nandati, katapunno ubhayattha nandati. "punnam me katan" ti nandati bhiyyo nandatisuggatim gato. (One who has done good deeds rejoices here and rejoices afterwards too; he rejoices in both places. Thinking "I have done good deeds" he rejoices, he rejoices all the more having gone to a happy existence. Dhammapada, v. 18.) ***** Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125005 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:17 pm Subject: Re: Broken heart? sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: >...Alan mentioned on meeting when he met Acharn at hospital, when her father was dying. That was very inspiring to hear. He told me that he was suprised that she was discussing Dhamma with him, when her father was dying. I asked if she was said at that moment. Alan mentioned, that she was not. I think this is a benefit of developing more understanding in life. No sadness. No grieve, No lamentation. And than we just know, no matter what happens in life, for that moment no conditions to condition A grieve. Imposible for all kind of sorrow to arise, cause there is no cause for that time. ... S: I think we need to be careful about thinking like this. As I just quoted, Anathapindika was very distressed when his daughter passed away. Many, many examples.....very ordinary and common. I was staying with K.Sujin and her father just before he died and not so long afterwards. It's not correct to say that there was no sadness or grief! Of course there was. Different moments! It can be a kindness or consideration not to show or pour out our grief, however. When K.Sujin (or anyone else) helps others with Dhamma and is concerned for their welfare, of course no grief at such moments. No one can have kusala all the time. Better not to speculate about others' cittas, I find. Otherwise, just more stories and speculations.... If we think that there will be no sadness, no grief when understanding develops it's some kind of unrealistic expectation - bound to lead to more disappointment, more sadness! Any dhamma at all - we never know by conditions.....no expectations of others or ourselves is best.... Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125006 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Lukas, Rob K & Sukin, >R: She asked if you really want to understand and Sukin and me both vouched for you. >So she said it is time to meet. >She can come to Europe or you come here....lett's decide soon. > >I told her about your problems and she said understading is the best thing in life. ... S: "Understanding is the best thing in life" is always her answer, THE answer. Wow - interesting that she'd consider a trip to Europe for dh discussions. A few years ago she told some of us that she was not going to travel anymore outside Asia now she's in her 80s. If she does, we'd join for sure as I can combine it with a family visit. Others in Europe and N.America might join too. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125007 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, Op 15-jun-2012, om 17:39 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > However due to the deep(er) exploration of the Dhamma we find this > distinction in Abhidhamma , so that one may wonder why for this > issue your perspective is not mine ( 'Suttanist) and my perspective > is not yours ('Abhidhammika') :-) --------- N: I am disinclined to see the teaching expounded in the Suttanta and in the Abhidhamma as different. Also in the suttas we find many passages on paramattha dhammas, and also when the Buddha spoke by way of sammutti sacca this was in order to explain paramattha dhammas. --------- Heard in a Thai recording and I thought of you: Understanding D.O. is not different from vipassanaa ~naa.na. Without satipa.t.thaana we just think of the story of D.O., of the concept of it. We do not understand characteristics. We listen and consider and we begin to understand why ignorance is a condition for sa"nkhaara. Kamma conditions vi~n~naa.na, the rebirth- consciousness. It is the fruit of past kamma, and we can see how the results are so different when looking at humans and animals. Naama is different from ruupa, we can understand more and more and in detail the characteristics of naama and ruupa. Even when listening to Dhamma now we can begin to understand D.O. If there would not have been rebirth-consciousness there would not be any reality now. There are aayatanas, we can understand D.O. through the six doorways. The second vipassanaa ~naa.na is direct understanding of conditions. There is no self who can do this or that. Whatever arises, sati included, does so because of the appropriate conditions. Nobody can force the arising of any reality. ------- N: I find it very good how Kh Sujin stresses that only by knowing characteristics of naama and ruupa, by satipa.t.thaana, we can understand D.O. There is so little use of just thinking stories about D.O. , knowing the classifications and terms. Besides, there is always "me", "me", when we are doing so. No way to really grasp what D.O. is. The real purpose of the teaching of D.O. is teaching anattaa. But this is not a mere word. Characteristics of naama and ruupa should be understood, when they appear: now. That is the way to penetrate the meaning of anattaa. ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125008 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi lukas You might enjoy this video of a drug taking problem kids change to a buddhist. A bit heavy on the "meditation is the way" for me, but the message is still useful. His dad is steven levine of " who dies" fame. A rather good book http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documentary/watch-online/play/7860/Meditate-and-\ Destroy Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125009 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:34 am Subject: Problems in life. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ken H, Lukas, and all, I was considering the way Kh Sujin answers people's requests for advice. Ken, I also thought of you, re abortion Rob K mentioned the other day, and your reaction that this is a highly sensitive issue. I would like you to be happy about the Dhamma. Kh Sujin would never judge anybody about such issues. It is such a heavy decision and mostly it would not be taken lightly by the persons concerned. Rob K quoted an example of a monk giving advice about abortion, but that is a different matter. Monks are supposed to live like arahats, they cannot take any life or drink. They have to follow the rules of the Vinaya. In case of any problem, for example, addiction to alcohol, or suffering from a loss, people may seek advice from Kh Sujin. She will answer that so long as one is not a sotaapanna there are conditions to kill or to be enslaved to alcohol. Then she will bring people back to the present moment: now you are not drinking, not killing, you are just thinking. Even thinking now is a conditioned naama, not "your" thinking. Or seeing, is there no seeing now, know it, understand it as only a naama. This is satipa.t.thaana and the only way eventually leading to enlightenment. Instead of worrying or being distressed we can be happy about the Dhamma. As Sarah said to Dieter: All the teachings are for understanding, testing out at this moment. ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125010 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert K and Lukas I definitely advocate meditation for drug addicts, the dopamine pleasure of lobha-rooted meditation as a healthy substitue for the dopamine of drugs, and Lukas is wise enough to understand that meditation as taught today is rooted in lobha so there needn't be the wrong view of meditators who foolishly believe they are on the path, he can use it as yoga. Staying off drugs is his first concern, more immediate concern even than meetiing A. Sujin. I don't believe she will help him stay off drugs, tgere needs to be a brain/body pleasure substitue, in my opinion. I will find out myself tgis summer when I go to Quebec, will meditate a lot to avoid the need for tge drugs, which I can't get in Japan because of the strict laws. Of cpurse tge understanding shared by AS is supreme, but opiates are a supreme beast in a different way. phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Hi lukas > You might enjoy this video of a drug taking problem kids change to a buddhist. > > A bit heavy on the "meditation is the way" for me, but the message is still useful. > His dad is steven levine of " who dies" fame. A rather good book > > http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documentary/watch-online/play/7860/Meditate-and-\ Destroy > Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125011 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello again I used "dopamine" but it probably doesn't have much or anything to do with that proven benefit of meditation, the activation of the frontal lobes or whatever it is those studies on meditators show. But I do believe the lobha-rooted pleasure arising from meditation can help replace or weaken a drug dependency. A far less harmful dependency is substituted, in conjunction with other treatment. phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi Robert K and Lukas > > I definitely advocate meditation for drug addicts, the dopamine pleasure of lobha-rooted meditation as a healthy substitue for the dopamine of drugs, and Lukas is wise enough to understand that meditation as taught today is rooted in lobha so there needn't be the wrong view of meditators who foolishly believe they are on the path, he can use it as yoga. Staying off drugs is his first concern, more immediate concern even than meetiing A. Sujin. I don't believe she will help him stay off drugs, tgere needs to be a brain/body pleasure substitue, in my opinion. I will find out myself tgis summer when I go to Quebec, will meditate a lot to avoid the need for tge drugs, which I can't get in Japan because of the strict laws. Of cpurse tge understanding shared by AS is supreme, but opiates are a supreme beast in a different way. > > phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > Hi lukas > > You might enjoy this video of a drug taking problem kids change to a buddhist. > > > > A bit heavy on the "meditation is the way" for me, but the message is still useful. > > His dad is steven levine of " who dies" fame. A rather good book > > > > http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documentary/watch-online/play/7860/Meditate-and-\ Destroy > > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125012 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Azita & all, >________________________________ > From: Nina van Gorkom >I was considering the way Kh Sujin answers people's requests for >advice. Ken, I also thought of you, re abortion Rob K mentioned the >other day, and your reaction that this is a highly sensitive issue. I >would like you to be happy about the Dhamma. Kh Sujin would never >judge anybody about such issues. It is such a heavy decision and >mostly it would not be taken lightly by the persons concerned. Rob K >quoted an example of a monk giving advice about abortion, but that is >a different matter. Monks are supposed to live like arahats, they >cannot take any life or drink. They have to follow the rules of the >Vinaya. ... S: Yes, I was going to mention in that context that the Parajika offense is for the monk, the lay-person. Azita, do you remember, a long time ago, you brought up this sensitive topic in the context of your work in a hospital theatre as a nurse. I may be wrong, but as I recall, sometimes you had to assist in such operations. K.Sujin's response, from my memory, was that these are all stories about situations and that then, like now, there are so many different dhammas and awareness can be aware anytime. She didn't say "change your job" or "say you can't do that" or anything else. It was just ordinary, daily life - develop understanding. As Nina said she always stresses that only a sotapanna will no longer take intoxicants, kill and so on. A man may be a monk for a long time following good Vinaya and then there may be conditions for all kinds of addictions to manifest if he disrobes or in another life-time if he is not a sotapanna yet. Azita, do you remember when the discussion was (Burma - beginning, end? India - which year?) and then maybe I can find it and transcribe it. Btw, Azita, how are your daughters and grand-children getting on? How's life in Cairns? Any chance of joining us in Bkk end Aug or next Jan? Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125013 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil, Lukas & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Of course the understanding shared by AS is supreme, but opiates are a supreme beast in a different way. .... S: I think you made many good points. If we're sick (and drug addiction is a very serious sickness), we need to take the appropriate medicine of whatever kind as you've pointed out. KS would agree and stress the importance of understanding no matter where or when. Best wishes for your trip back to Canada. Perhaps you'll have a chance to talk to Ned's family as well as spending time with your parents, brother and 'good' friends. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125014 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:29 am Subject: Re: Audio 2012 "Do you really know breath?" epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Pt, Jessica, Rob E & all, > > Here is an extract from our recent discussions in KK between K.Sujin & Jessica on understanding of breath which you may find interesting and relevant to recent discussions. K.Sujin likes to help us to see the ignorance of realities at the present moment! We all appreciated Jessica's contributions to the discussions with her good humour. > ***** > Jessica: I think what you're saying - no choice of object and place as object of awareness. Studying the Anapanasati Sutta, it's tempting to think of the breathing. Like Satipatthana Sutta, there's contemplation of different... body, kayanupassana. I guess there's no understanding when reading those suttas. There's a tendency to focus on a particular object. > > KS: Do you really know breath to be the object of right understanding? > > Jes: Sometimes do, sometimes not. > > KS: "Sometimes do" is not the understanding of breath because if there is the understanding of breath, you know breath anytime. I would like to understand this statement better. It suggests the level of understanding at which insight into the breath is a steady knowledge that arises at any time it is needed, which in my knowledge is only when it becomes a "power," a very advanced state. Is this what K. Sujin is referring to, and does that mean that she considers that one cannot know the breath until the degree of insight into those special rupas is a power? > Jes: I cannot know. > > KS: So how can you have breath as the object of understanding? It's only wanting to have it, selecting it to be [the] object to develop. Why not any reality because there is ignorance of everything when there's no right understanding of it? This suggests that when there is prior knowledge of breath as object it can be the object of understanding at any time, but when there is no steady ability to know the breath rupas, then it is wishful thinking and lobha - just the expression of attachment and desire. *** > KS: We don't have to use the word rupa if we don't know that that characteristic cannot experience at all. It has its own characteristic, like cold is cold, hot is hot, solidity is hard, something like that. It has its own characteristic. No one can make it to be that way. So what's breath? You call it breath, but what is it? > > Jes: That is the wind, movement, that's the air going... > > KS: So it's like the air or what? It does not appear now, so what appears? It depends on right understanding whether it's enough to be condition for the arising of awareness... But if sati is not there, ...it's just normal rupa in daily life without any understanding. What is the characteristic of the breath rupa when it is known, not just as the passage of air, but as the object of knowledge? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125015 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Lukas, Sarah all One problem is that if Lukas' exposure to meditation is thrpugh Goenka, it is impossible to do without wrong view, the technique is advocated is so forcefully top down. Yoga might be best....breath yoga. So pleasant!! Better than alcohol for me at least... Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Phil, Lukas & all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Of course the understanding shared by AS is supreme, but opiates are a supreme beast in a different way. > .... > S: I think you made many good points. If we're sick (and drug addiction is a very serious sickness), we need to take the appropriate medicine of whatever kind as you've pointed out. > > KS would agree and stress the importance of understanding no matter where or when. > > Best wishes for your trip back to Canada. Perhaps you'll have a chance to talk to Ned's family as well as spending time with your parents, brother and 'good' friends. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125016 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:56 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi pt, and Rob K. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > It seems heart-base arises by default in the "heart area" so to speak, with other kalapas around it forming a physical heart, if it can be put that way. Is there an explanation in the texts why is it that heart base is tied to the "heart area". More like the heart function, rather than location. The rupas that are represented by the heart and blood must form supporting conditions for the heart-base to arise. > I mean, as far as a dhamma is concerned, I wouldn't have thought that a location (which seems like a concept to me) in timespace would be one of its individual characteristics. I would think that the kalapas that are represented by heart and blood would serve as conditions for the arising of heart base, but conditions are not characteristics. > Further, as you've mentioned in your old post, even if there was no heart, or the blood was artificial, heart base would still arise in the same area. So, I'm wondering how is that connection between a dhamma (ultimate) and a location (which seems like a concept to me) explained, if at all? Thanks. Where we see 'heart' and 'blood' there are actually certain types of kalapas arising. Seems to me that the 'heart and blood' which correspond to the particular rupas involved can arise as long as the heart, artificial or otherwise, is doing the function of the heart, pumping blood, etc. Whatever connection that all has, it boils down to rupas and supporting conditions, and isn't dependent on the type of conventional substance that is involved. I know my unschooled thoughts aren't of great value on their own - maybe Rob K. can say if I am on the right track. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125017 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:05 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob K., and pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > It seems heart-base arises by default in the "heart area" so to speak, with other kalapas around it forming a physical heart, if it can be put that way. Is there an explanation in the texts why is it that heart base is tied to the "heart area". I mean, as far as a dhamma is concerned, I wouldn't have thought that a location (which seems like a concept to me) in timespace would be one of its individual characteristics. > +++++++++ > Dear Pt, > it's like asking why the cakkhu-pasada rupa is located in the physical eye, why not in the big toenail? > Why do humans have two legs; why is pali spoken in the deva worlds; why do buddhas always arise in jambudipa; why are there hell realms; when did it all begin. > This is just the nature of the universe it is not explained why these things are this way in Dhamma. Your other post impressed me where you seemed to indicate that we can use common sense without violating paramatha. It sort of makes sense that the rupas that support heart-base would occur in what we understand as heart and blood, and that eye-base would reside in the eye, etc. The idea that some people have that such concepts as eye and ear must be totally and completely separate from dhammas makes little sense. Why should they be separate in location, or not have some sort of synchrony to their functions? In the scripture that was recently cited by Nina about the distinction between the 'ear' as a concept and the 'ear' as the organ of hearing in paramatha terms, that the ear in paramatha terms is not the 'lump of flesh' but is the ear-base that recides within a specific location within the ear. I think we can understand that the ear-base is not in the same dimension as the 'lump of flesh' we call the ear, and yet there is some sort of correspondence there, and that is okay. I like your idea, as I paraphrase it, of not turning Dhamma into a torturous philosophical exercise, but to let it be a support for actually understanding what exists. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125018 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:15 pm Subject: Re: Research on bad effects of formal meditation retreat epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > S: No. As you suggest, pariyatti and wise reflection on dhammas precedes the panna of satipatthana which again needs to be developed before it is insight level. > > However, without pariyatti panna, wise reflection and understanding of (concepts of) dhammas now, there cannot be the arising and development of satipatthana (the direct understanding of realities). Thank you, that is helpful. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (273) #125019 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > S: The only way is the development of understanding and awareness now of the present reality. If that is thinking or attachment or trying this or that - all dhammas that can be directly known now. Never and self involved as you've been stressing to Alex. That is hopeful, that the dhammas involved can be directly known, even though concepts are there as object of thinking. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (58) #125020 From: "aungsoeminuk" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:20 pm Subject: Dhamma aungsoeminuk Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhammo rakkhati dhammacaari. This is true. If you practice dhamma then you will practically see it. Dhamma Rakkhita Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125021 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > How can one be aware of anything with so much commentary going on? The best I can do is see that all of that is just sort of putting the finger on the scale, constantly trying to change or adjust what has already happened without any control, to turn it into something more pleasant or easier to fit into one's conceptual framework. It's kind of funny in a way, if it weren't so annoying. > > .... > > What do you expect when you spend so much time on the internet writing posts full of conceptualization and proliferation about dhammas? The observation I made above does not just apply to me, but I'm sure you enjoyed jumping on it. > Every post you write (and yes you write very very well) at DSG full of your commentary/opinuon/paraphrased undwrstanding will condition more of the same when you're away from the computer as well, that's pretty obvious. I'm not sure if it works that way, but in any case if you actually read the posts on dsg you will see that probably a large majority of my posts are questions about Dhamma and receipt of answers to Dhamma questions from Sarah or others, not vehicles for speculation and rampant conceptualization as you may think. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (58) #125022 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob K., and Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Rob E.: > > > > How can one be aware of anything with so much commentary going on? ... Phil: > > What do you expect... Every post you write...full of your commentary/opinion/paraphrased understanding will condition more of the same... > Dear phil and rob > Does it matter whether there is commentary or not. Thinking has to be known as it is. Thanks, Rob, that is a good point. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (58) #125023 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:36 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 2, 4. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, As a Bodhisatta he had accumulated renunciation in many different lives. We read in the “Discourse on Ghatikåra” (Middle Length Sayings II, no 81) that he renounced worldly life for the “homeless life” when he was born into a brahman family as Jotipåla, at the time of the Buddha Kassapa. Together with his friend the Potter Ghatikåra he visited the Buddha Kassapa and listened to the Dhamma. Jotipåla decided to renounce worldly life and to become a monk. He was ordained by the Buddha Kassapa. In his last life the Buddha, when he was born as Prince Siddhattha, renounced again his worldly life. He met on his way to the park, outside the palace, an old person, a sick person and he saw a corpse. Thus, he was confronted with old age, sickness and death; he considered how nobody can escape these. When he was on his way to the park for the fourth time he met a monk and then he decided to renounce worldly life in order to seek the truth. He who in a former life as Prince Vessantara had given up his wife and children renounced again his family life, his life with Queen Yasodhåra and his new-born son Råhula. Some people do not understand how he could leave his new-born son. However, after he had attained enlightenment he gave his son the greatest gift a father could possibly give his son: he taught him Dhamma and at the age of twenty Rahula reached the end of lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion) and moha (ignorance), when he attained arahatship. The Buddha renounced all in order to teach others to develop the wisdom leading to the end of clinging. During our pilgrimage we had many conversations about detachment. Sometimes fellow-guests of the hotels where we stayed happened to drop into the monk’s room where we were sitting on the floor, talking about right understanding of our life. They would join in our conversation and ask questions about the Buddha’s teachings and about detachment. For many people the goal of life is enjoyment of pleasant things which can be experienced through eyes, ears, nose, tongue and bodysense. They are afraid that the Buddha’s teachings will take the “spice” out of life. However, the Buddha taught the “Middle Way” which is the development of right understanding of all phenomena of life. We do not have to force ourselves not to enjoy the pleasant things of life but we can develop right understanding of whatever reality appears through one of the six doors, be it enjoyment, generosity or any other reality. Some people think that for the development of right understanding it is necessary to retire from worldly life. However, we should not force ourselves to lead a life for which we have no accumulations. Both monks and laypeople can develop the eightfold Path and attain enlightenment. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125024 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:06 pm Subject: spd 31 understanding the characteristic of citta. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear group Here is today's passage from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket: "When we study citta we should not believe that we can immediately have clear understanding of the chracteristic of citta. Moreover, the study of citta should not be motivated by the desire to be a peson with a great deal of knowledge about cita. The understanding acquired from study can be an accumulated condition, or sankarakkhanda (the khanda including all cetasikas, also all sobhana or beautiful cetasikas, except feeling and remembrance) for the arising of sati of satipatthana. Sati can be aware of the characteristic of citta that is naama, the element that experiences an object at this very moment. In the way, panna can eliminate the wrong view that takes all realities for self. This should be the aim of our study of the Dhamma." (64) (end of passage) Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125025 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E > The observation I made above does not just apply to me, but I'm sure you enjoyed jumping on it. Yes, we enjoy our defilements, I enjoy writing things that I hope at the time will be irritating to you. That is just the way it works, nothing to be done about it for now. There may be conditions for not disliking you and therefore not writing antagonistic things in the future, no way to say. DSG seems to be a pocket of hostility for me, that I don't have in daily life. I guess it has to feed somewhere. > > Every post you write (and yes you write very very well) at DSG full of your commentary/opinuon/paraphrased undwrstanding will condition more of the same when you're away from the computer as well, that's pretty obvious. > > I'm not sure if it works that way, but in any case if you actually read the posts on dsg you will see that probably a large majority of my posts are questions about Dhamma and receipt of answers to Dhamma questions from Sarah or others, not vehicles for speculation and rampant conceptualization as you may think. > Ph: Hmm, I don't read your posts often, that's true, there are too many of them and they are too long for me. Their frequency and length led me to assume you are writing a lot of ideas or trying to explain your understanding, which must of course be "speculation and rampant conceptualization." I *have* seen your questions on occasion, and it is clear that they are not just leading questions a la alex. Kudos. Carry on, no further comment. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (58) #125026 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear All, typo correction: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Yes, I was going to mention in that context that the Parajika offense is for the monk, the lay-person. ... S: this should be: " *not * the lay-person". Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125027 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:46 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK, > RobK: it's like asking why the cakkhu-pasada rupa is located in the physical eye, why not in the big toenail? ... > This is just the nature of the universe it is not explained why these things are this way in Dhamma. Ok, thanks. Perhaps rephrasing the question: during a moment of satipatthana, when eye-base (or heart-base) is the object of citta with panna, does panna know the location of eye-base (heart-base) at the time? Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125028 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:04 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK, > Quote: ... The highest > meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So, > another wise man also should NOT, IN EXPLAINING THE HIGHEST MEANING OVERRUN A CONCEPT" < pt: Thanks for this and other quotes. I have to admit that I don't fully follow these English translations at this point, so I'll take the quotes to say what you say they are saying. > > pt: What am I missing? > ++++++++++++ > RobK: What you are missing is some common sense. > The Dhamma is not some sort of legalese whereby quibbles and argumentation over arcane technicalities take precedence over useful expanation. < pt: Ok, I'll hold you to that in future discussions :) > RobK: And the heart base is explained in detail and clarity in the Visuddimagga. < pt: It's good if that's how things are for you, I still don't understand most of it, hence the need to ask questions, but I understand that questioning might come across as if the validity of the text itself is being questioned. > RobK: It becomes a great obfuscation of Dhamma when confused Buddhists deliberately or unknowlingly try to use ultimate terms to wiggle out of accurate Dhamma. The paramattha terms, for them, rather than clarify has become an intellectual escape from seeing the vastness of Dhamma and the true dukkha of samsara. The medicine has become the source of their illness. < pt: I'm not sure what you are saying here, so I'll leave it at that if you don't mind. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125029 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:36 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob K, Sukin, > She asked if you really want to understand and Sukin and me both vouched for you. > So she said it is time to meet. > She can come to Europe or you come here....lett's decide soon. L: Than let me to arrange this money I told. In few days i give u details. I think everything will be good. It is much better if Acharn come to Europe, so many people would like to meet her. That is also my cousin brother. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125030 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:47 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobK, > > > RobK: it's like asking why the cakkhu-pasada rupa is located in the physical eye, why not in the big toenail? > ... > > This is just the nature of the universe it is not explained why these things are this way in Dhamma. > > > Ok, thanks. Perhaps rephrasing the question: during a moment of satipatthana, when eye-base (or heart-base) is the object of citta with panna, does panna know the location of eye-base (heart-base) at the time? > > Best wishes > pt Dear pt Without knowing the details od Dhamma there will never be any moment of satipatthana. Understandng that visible object, color, can only arise together with the 4 elements, even though seeing only experiences visible object, not the 4 elements, is a part of pariyatti. As is heart base, as is not imagining eyebase is outside the body of some other wrong idea. If one is so very caught up by conventional ideas from science say, as to think mind is based in the brain then satipatthana is not going to be a feature one needs to be too concerned with. Robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125031 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Audio 2012 "Do you really know breath?" nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E, Op 17-jun-2012, om 2:29 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > What is the characteristic of the breath rupa when it is known, not > just as the passage of air, but as the object of knowledge? > ------- N: First of all, breath is a ruupa is conditioned by citta. So long as we live we are dependent on breath, and at death there is the last breath. But we cling to it, we want to live. Through satipa.t.thaana there can be awarenes of breath when it appears, awareness of hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure. We can learn that it is only a very tiny ruupa, not mine. Pa~n~naa knows its characteristic and detaches from it. This object is so subtle and it is difficult to be aware of it and not to confuse it with a passage of air. ------ Nina. Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125032 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:55 pm Subject: Awareness and thinking, no 1. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, This is an extract from a Thai recording, Pakinnaka (miscellaneous) no. 10. 0539 Awareness and thinking. Kh Santi: When there is mindfulness of realities, we can consider them, but, mindfulness is so short, there is no time to consider them. Acharn Sujin: There is still the idea of self who considers. When there is satipa.t.thaana we realize that what we began to understand on the level of pariyatti occurs actually now, at this moment. If we do not consider the reality appearing now, how can we know what naama is? If it is not known now it will not be known in the future either. Naama is an element that knows or experiences something, it is different from the ruupa that appears, such as visible object. Listening again and again is very valuable for the understanding on the level of pariyatti. Ruupa is entirely different from naama. When colour appears the element that knows can see it. The element that sees is the leader in knowing the object, it is not feeling, not remembrance. It knows different colours. Each colour is different because the conditions for different colours are varied. This is one level of understanding. There is another level of understanding: one begins to know that seeing now arises because of conditions. First there is no seeing and then seeing arises, it is a dhamma. First there is no hearing and then hearing arises, it is a dhamma. Because of listening one knows that that is the characteristic of dhamma. ------- Nina: An additional explanation: it is a dhamma, a conditioned reality, non-self. It arises entirely because of its own conditions. At first there is no seeing, then it arises and it falls away and after it has fallen away it is nowhere to be found. --------- Acharn: There is no need to give names to realities, one pays attention to the characteristic that appears. This is the way to know the difference between the reality that knows something and the reality that does not know anything. One is attentive to the characteristic that appears, little by little. Thinking still arises in between, such as thinking: “this is the reality that knows something”. Then there is thinking of a story, a concept. Sometimes there is no thinking and just awareness of the characteristic that appears. One can come to know the difference between the moments of thinking and the moments that there is no thinking. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125033 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:58 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, It is wonderful news. I still have so much faith to Acharn. When I hear her Dhamma it gives me so much shelter. I think this Dhamma brings real understanding of misery. And all miserable people should listen. I 've read sutta in kindred sayings. What is a right way and what is wrong way? Wrong way is that, from ignorance comes sankharas, from sankharas comes vinnanas...all grieve. This is how all this misery comes to be. all dukkha. And what is the right way? With the cesation of ignorance come the cesation of sankaras, with cesation of sankharas comes the cesation of vinnanas....and ceasation of all misery comes. This is how all the dukkha comes to an end. this is the right way. This is so true. I think even one moment with right understanding and all this misery comes to an end, even for while. So no practices, meditations, looking, wanting to understand, but understanding is that what brings less misery in life. Best wishes Lukas > Wow - interesting that she'd consider a trip to Europe for dh discussions. A few years ago she told some of us that she was not going to travel anymore outside Asia now she's in her 80s. If she does, we'd join for sure as I can combine it with a family visit. Others in Europe and N.America might join too. L: This is also a task for me, coming back home. Not to drink or indulge in intoxicants, but try to organise this trip, even a little. In Poland if it would be possible for her to visit, I am quite sure I can arrange some place and meetings for her and everyone interested, on the countryside. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125034 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, I dont do meditation at least 3 and more years. Even here if I am asked to sit, I just sit. But usaully have a suttas with me, and read. Best wishes Lukas > One problem is that if Lukas' exposure to meditation is thrpugh Goenka, it is impossible to do without wrong view, the technique is advocated is so forcefully top down. Yoga might be best....breath yoga. So pleasant!! Better than alcohol for me at least... Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125035 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Audio 2012 "Do you really know breath?" moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, all, you wrote: "What is the characteristic of the breath rupa when it is known, not just as the passage of air, but as the object of knowledge?" I think Anapanasati Sutta ,MN 118, answers your question: (excerpt , trs.by Ven.Nyanatiloka http://www.budsas.org/ebud/word-of-buddha/wob4nt12.htm ) I. Whenever the disciple (1) mindfully makes a long inhalation or exhalation, or (2) makes a short inhalation or exhalation, or (3) trains himself to inhale or exhale whilst experiencing the whole (breath-) body, or (4) whilst calming down this bodily function (i.e. the breath)-at such a time the disciple dwells in 'contemplation of the body', full of energy, comprehending it, mindful, after subduing worldly greed and grief. For, inhalation and exhalation I call one amongst the corporeal phenomena. II. Whenever the disciple trains himself to inhale or exhale (1) whilst feeling rapture (piiti), or (2) joy (sukha), or (3) the mental functions (cittasankhaara), or (4) whilst calming down the mental functions-at such a time he dwells in 'contemplation of the feelings', full of energy, clearly comprehending them, mindful, after subduing worldly greed and grief. For, the full awareness of In- and Out-breathing I call one amongst the feelings. with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125036 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Lukas OK. But opiates are very powerful. Reading your post about organizing a trip to Europe for A Sujin is very encouraging though, you have a lot of faith in the Dhamma, more than me, excellent conditions. Maybe you can beat drugs, but I hope you continue to look for treatment and therapy (such as yoga) other than Dhamma. Please listen to good friends and good family members that are unrelated to your Dhamma friends too, if there are such people. And above all professionals who know how to fight drug addiction. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Phil, > I dont do meditation at least 3 and more years. Even here if I am asked to sit, I just sit. But usaully have a suttas with me, and read. > > Best wishes > Lukas > > > One problem is that if Lukas' exposure to meditation is thrpugh Goenka, it is impossible to do without wrong view, the technique is advocated is so forcefully top down. Yoga might be best....breath yoga. So pleasant!! Better than alcohol for me at least... > Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125037 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:11 am Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Lukas, this is a great post. I can really feel your confidence in understanding that frees not only from wrong practices but also drugs. I was inspired by your post and made a decision of my own, thank you. It might not last but these momentary decisions might gradually build up accumulated power. We can defeat our addictions through moments or right understanding. Phil > > Dear Sarah, > It is wonderful news. I still have so much faith to Acharn. When I hear her Dhamma it gives me so much shelter. I think this Dhamma brings real understanding of misery. And all miserable people should listen. I 've read sutta in kindred sayings. What is a right way and what is wrong way? Wrong way is that, from ignorance comes sankharas, from sankharas comes vinnanas...all grieve. This is how all this misery comes to be. all dukkha. And what is the right way? With the cesation of ignorance come the cesation of sankaras, with cesation of sankharas comes the cesation of vinnanas....and ceasation of all misery comes. This is how all the dukkha comes to an end. this is the right way. This is so true. I think even one moment with right understanding and all this misery comes to an end, even for while. > So no practices, meditations, looking, wanting to understand, but understanding is that what brings less misery in life. > > Best wishes > Lukas > > > Wow - interesting that she'd consider a trip to Europe for dh discussions. A few years ago she told some of us that she was not going to travel anymore outside Asia now she's in her 80s. If she does, we'd join for sure as I can combine it with a family visit. Others in Europe and N.America might join too. > > L: This is also a task for me, coming back home. Not to drink or indulge in intoxicants, but try to organise this trip, even a little. In Poland if it would be possible for her to visit, I am quite sure I can arrange some place and meetings for her and everyone interested, on the countryside. > > Best wishes > Lukas > Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125038 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:25 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina, Thanks for your message; it explained a point I was trying to make some time ago when I said satipatthana was "for mass murderers and snow sweepers alike." I attracted some criticism for that. What a pity I wasn't able to explain it the way you have here: ----- > N: … She will answer that so long as one is not a sotaapanna there are conditions to kill or to be enslaved to alcohol. Then she will bring people back to the present moment: now you are not drinking, not killing, you are just thinking. Even thinking now is a conditioned naama, not "your" thinking. Or seeing, is there no seeing now, know it, understand it as only a naama. ----- Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125039 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:29 pm Subject: Re: Audio 2012 "Do you really know breath?" epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Dieter. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > you wrote: > > "What is the characteristic of the breath rupa when it is known, not just as the passage of air, but as the object of knowledge?" > > I think Anapanasati Sutta ,MN 118, answers your question: > > (excerpt , trs.by Ven.Nyanatiloka http://www.budsas.org/ebud/word-of-buddha/wob4nt12.htm ) > > I. Whenever the disciple (1) mindfully makes a long inhalation or exhalation, or (2) makes a short inhalation or exhalation, or (3) trains himself to inhale or exhale whilst experiencing the whole (breath-) body, or (4) whilst calming down this bodily function (i.e. the breath)-at such a time the disciple dwells in 'contemplation of the body', full of energy, comprehending it, mindful, after subduing worldly greed and grief. For, inhalation and exhalation I call one amongst the corporeal phenomena. > > II. Whenever the disciple trains himself to inhale or exhale (1) whilst feeling rapture (piiti), or (2) joy (sukha), or (3) the mental functions (cittasankhaara), or (4) whilst calming down the mental functions-at such a time he dwells in 'contemplation of the feelings', full of energy, clearly comprehending them, mindful, after subduing worldly greed and grief. For, the full awareness of In- and Out-breathing I call one amongst the feelings. This seems like a very nice version of the sutta. I will read it some more. However, on the subject of the breath rupa, I think there is a more specific indication of what in the breath it is, since it is said to be something different from just the passage of the air. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125040 From: "Staisha" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:16 pm Subject: Question about Jhanacitta staisha_perry Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Lina, I have not wrote here in a long time, and apologize if this is not written in correct formatting. Q: when there are jhanacitta, no matter for how long, there cannot be bhavanga- cittas in between? Why is this so? -Staisha Perry Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125041 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:55 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for your message; it explained a point I was trying to make some time ago when I said satipatthana was "for mass murderers and snow sweepers alike." I attracted some criticism for that. What a pity I wasn't able to explain it the way you have here: Still, Ken, not sure if you should back off your original point, even though I was one of the people who objected to it - at a moment of satipatthana, the murderer could have his akusala cetana to "murder" as the object of satipatthana, and it would be just as valid an object of awareness as a more kusala object for the snow sweeper. I think that may have been your point, which is valid, but it sounded like you were saying that it doesn't matter if you are a murderer or not, or that a murderer is equally likely to experience satipatthana, which I don't think is what you were saying. > ----- > > N: … She will answer that so long as one is not a sotaapanna there are conditions to kill or to be enslaved to alcohol. Then she will bring people back to the present moment: now you are not drinking, not killing, you are just thinking. Even thinking now is a conditioned naama, not "your" thinking. Or seeing, is there no seeing now, know it, understand it as only a naama. > ----- > > Ken H > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125042 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:01 pm Subject: Broken heart? 7. The 'situation' - the story sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas & all, Aren't we always thinking about another time, another situation, another scenario when life will be easier/more enjoyable/ with more awareness and so on? What about being aware now? ***** I said something more about thinking of what’s valuable in a certain situation. Sujin: "Now there is thinking about the situation, but that situation is not now. What happens if one dies now? Only thinking of a situation that does not come now. It indicates one’s attachment and clinging which will condition more in the future lives." ***** Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125043 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Htoo & friends, __________________________ > From: aungsoeminuk >Dear Dhamma Friends, >Dhammo rakkhati dhammacaari. This is true. If you practice dhamma then you will practically see it. >Dhamma Rakkhita .... S: I was about to welcome a new member, but found it was an 'old' member who had posted before. I was trying to work it out when Htoo sent me an off-list note to say it was him:-)) "Dhammo rakkhati dhammacaari": One who lives with Dhamma is protected by Dhamma. Perhaps you can add a little more. Good to see that you can post again, Htoo. Let's hope conditions become a little easier in this regard. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125044 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Broken heart? 7. The 'situation' - the story nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, Op 18-jun-2012, om 7:01 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Sujin: "Now there is thinking about the situation, but that > situation is not now. What > happens if one dies now? Only thinking of a situation that does not > come now. It > indicates one’s attachment and clinging which will condition more > in the future lives." ------- N: I am just reading to Lodewijk my letter about perfections, that is a report about another pilgrimage. How I was clinging to the situation of Dhamma discussions, not wanting to miss out. Now I understand more that what counts is awareness of the present reality, no matter where one is. ----- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125045 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:44 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 2, 5 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Our life is nåma and rúpa, arising because of conditions. If right understanding has been developed, paññå, not self, will perform the function of detachment from nåma and reupa. Therefore, “we” should not try to change our life; all that occurs is beyond control, it is anattå. What matters most is the development of right understanding just now, and that also is not self, it is anattå. This development is conditioned by listening to the teachings and considering them. If one truly has accumulations to retire from worldly life, the conditions in one’s life will lead to this without the need to force oneself. We all are attached to what we can experience through the senses. Attachment makes us enslaved. The more one obtains for oneself the more will one wish to have. Our wishes will never be satisfied. Even the more subtle attachment is harmful, unknowingly one accumulates more and more. Attachment conditions aversion because if one cannot satisfy one’s wishes there will be aversion. Not everyone can see the difference between the moments of attachment and the moments of unselfish loving kindness in one’s relationship with family and friends. Attachment is akusala, it makes us enslaved. Pure loving kindness is kusala, it should be cultivated. The Buddha cultivated loving kindness during his lives as a Bodhisatta, because he wanted to help all people, without preference for this or that person. Therefore, he left his family in order to seek the truth. We cannot force ourselves not to have attachment because we have accumulated it for such a long time. Is there not at this moment attachment to what we see? Attachment to what we see is a reality. It is different from the reality which is visible object and different from the reality which is the experience of visible object. Right understanding of these different characteristics can be developed. What is it we see? We think that we see people and different things and we are bound to be attached to what we see. However, through the eyes it is only visible object which appears, nothing else. When visible object appears there must also be the experience of visible object, otherwise visible object could not appear. It is not self which experiences visible object, but a kind of nåma. We take visible object for “something”, for “self”, and we take the experience of visible object for self. Sati, which is nåma, not self, can be mindful of the different realities that apppear, one at a time, and in this way there will be less clinging to the self. When we begin to realize that what is seen is merely visible object which appears through the eyes and which cannot be experienced, for example, through touch, paññå will realize visible object as it is: just visible object, a kind of rúpa, not something or somebody. We can begin to understand that thinking about what we see is another reality, different from visible object and different from seeing. There is no self, no person in visible object, it is only visible object. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125046 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:45 pm Subject: Awareness and Thinking, no 2. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, (continuation of the Thai recording) Kh Santi: What is being attentive to characteristics? Acharn: that is satipa.t.thaana. Kh Santi: this is not clear yet. Acharn: There cannot be clarity in the beginning. Understanding has to be developed and it is a long process: a development that takes a long time (ciira kala bhaavanaa). It is not possible that one is aware and then understands immediately. Clear understanding must lead to detachment. When there is sati-sampaja~n~na (sati and pa~n~naa), there is awareness of a characteristic and this is not thinking. Gradually there will be a clearer understanding, but this takes a long time. We have to remember the sutta on the knife handle one holds every day and that wears away very slowly. One does not notice how much is worn away every day. The reality that appears now, not anything else, should be known by pa~n~naa. The sotaapanna and all ariyans do not know anything else but the present reality, appearing through one of the six doors, very naturally. If one has desire for result, it is an impediment that deters the development of understanding. There must be three rounds of understanding the noble Truths: sacca ~naa.na, understanding of what has to be known and what the Path is; kicca ~naa.na, understanding of the task, that is, satipa.t.thaana; kata ~naa.na: understanding of what has been realized, the realisation of the truth. If there are not these three rounds one will not know the four noble Truths. Kh. Santi: I think of two kinds of people: someone who begins to be aware of realities, and someone who can explain the teachings to others but who is not aware of realities. Acharn: the second person just remembers what he has heard. But someone who has really understood realities can give explanations in many varied ways by means of his own understanding. One should know that there are different levels of understanding: the level stemming from listening, the level of considering the Dhamma one heard, and the level of satipa.t.thaana. If one does not know that there are these levels there cannot be the development of pa~n~naa. People usually just remember the story or concept of the Dhamma that they heard. Awareness and understanding the characteristics of realities is of a different level. Kh Chin: Are realities known through the mind-door? Acharn: Do not use any name. The characteristic of naama dhamma, the reality that experiences something, should be known. One may use the term mind-door but one may not know the characteristic of naama dhamma. Considering the Dhamma means to understand correctly, to understand more and more, gradually. So long as we do not understand the characteristics of naama and ruupa, there is still the idea of “us”, the idea of “we” understand. Even though we say that there is no self, only, citta, cetasika and ruupa, there is still the idea of self. ********** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125047 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question about Jhanacitta nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Staisha, good you post again. Op 18-jun-2012, om 6:16 heeft Staisha het volgende geschreven: > Q: when there are jhanacitta, no matter for how long, there cannot > be bhavanga- cittas in between? ------ N: A beginner in jkhaana has only one moment of jhaanacitta, and then bhavanacittas arise to be followed by a new process of cittas experiencing visible object, sound or one of the other sense objects. But those who are skilled in jhaana can have many jhaanacittas without interruption by bhavangacittas, even for a long time. Bhavangacittas arise before there is a new process of cittas experiencing an object through one of the six doors. So long as there are jhaanacittas one is removed from sense-door process cittas. The person who is skilled in jhaana has seen the disadvantages of sense objects. -------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125048 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:31 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK, > > pt: Perhaps rephrasing the question: during a moment of satipatthana, when eye-base (or heart-base) is the object of citta with panna, does panna know the location of eye-base (heart-base) at the time? > RobK: Without knowing the details od Dhamma there will never be any moment of satipatthana. > Understandng that visible object, color, can only arise together with the 4 elements, even though seeing only experiences visible object, not the 4 elements, is a part of pariyatti. As is heart base, as is not imagining eyebase is outside the body of some other wrong idea. > If one is so very caught up by conventional ideas from science say, as to think mind is based in the brain then satipatthana is not going to be a feature one needs to be too concerned with. pt: Ok, so I guess what you are saying is that the "location" issue is part of pariyatti, though not necessarily satipatthana. Fair enough. Thanks. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125049 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:05 pm Subject: 2007 audio - 20. Seclusion now! sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, The following transcript follows on from several DSG discussions with Alex and others about "going to the forest, leading a secluded life" and so on: ***** S: Back to the seclusion and "how about now?", we know that references to the forest like in the satipatthana Sutta are referring to ... KS: One is already there. S: .... the monks already there by accumulations.... KS: By their lives. S: ...because it's the natural place to go. Now in the Visuddhimagga, what about when we read something like "gone to the forest or an empty place: this signifies that he's found an abode favorable to the development of concentration of mindfulness of breathing"*.... KS: OK, what about going with akusala? S: Could be going with akusala or kusala. KS: Yes, why not? Anyone can go to the forest with akusala, unwholesome [S: cittas]. S: But then why does it say "an abode favorable to the development of concentration..."? KS: Yes, because concentration is not the understanding of reality at any time. S: But it suggests that it's favorable for something that is kusala because... KS: For those who have accumulations and some can even attain the Divine Eye. S: So suggesting those that perhaps have already developed samatha to such a degree, but then it goes on to say "For this bhikkhu's mind has long been dissipated among visible data....etc"**, so this doesn't suggest someone who has the accumulations naturally. KS: Did he suggest any layman? S: Maybe not. No layman, but even for a bhikkhu - because usually the way I respond or answer is, like in the Satipatthana Sutta - for those who have the accumulations and those who have already gone to the forest and those who have already developed samatha.... KS: Shall we postpone the development of panna from now on? S: Well, of course it's not what I'm advocating, but a lot of people today talk about developing jhana and they don't see it as.... KS: Excuse me, with understanding or without understanding about jhana at all? S: We would say without understanding, but they.... KS: "They"? Nothing to do with us. S: No, but someone quoted this passage which suggests.... KS: Excuse me, if there is no panna right now to understand this moment - whether it is calm or not, can anyone reach jhana, that stage of calmness? So it has start or begin from this moment. S: Yes, no matter what is says or what we read. KS: Yes. If there is no panna at this moment, how can it grow? S: No matter what the place ....."seclusion" has to be now. ***** *Vism: VIII,153. "Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing." **"For this bhikkhu's mind has long been dissipated among visible data, etc., as its object, and it does not want to mount the object of concentration-through-mindfulness-of-breathing; it runs off the track like a chariot harnessed to a wild ox." Metta Sarah p.s please note that all this series (20) of short discussion transcripts have been made from one morning's discussion at the Foundation which can be listened to at www.dhammastudygroup.org 2007-07-04A a-d (Bangkok). I remember it as a wonderful occasion with Han at my side. Many thanks to all who participated. =========== Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125050 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:53 pm Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas, Great reflections on the Dhammasangani #124884. As you say, just different dhammas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: >It seems so simply, but it's so deep and profound. seeing, hearing,..bodily impressions are avyakata dhammaa, there are all the time in our life, now. kusala and akusala dhammaa follows, without anyone there. Later as you say: >We just study them, but no expectations. Right understanding, that may come or not is really conditioned and this is sankhara khandha that must gradually accumulated. ... S: yes, "no expectations" - we make all sorts of plans, but we never know what dhammas will arise, will follow on..... so the way is just the understanding of what is conditioned now. Thanks for sharing your comments. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (19) #125051 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:32 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, > OK. But opiates are very powerful. L: Yes that is true. Know that I am alos listening to u. And consider treatments or your advices not to do bad, things. And I also have a faith in what your saying. >Reading your post about organizing a trip to Europe for A Sujin is >very encouraging though, you have a lot of faith in the Dhamma, more than me, excellent conditions. Maybe you can beat drugs, but I hope you continue to look for treatment and therapy (such as yoga) other than Dhamma. L: But, what kind of help? Now I am thinking of a group, but I think i need more direct help. Also I dont want to be spereated from Dhamma. I want more and more Dhamma. >Please listen to good friends and good family members that are unrelated to your Dhamma friends too, if there are such people. And above all professionals who know how to fight drug addiction. L: if u suggest me some kind of help i can get. Because now I dont see much options. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125052 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:32 pm Subject: Re: 2007 audio - 3. If no trying or forcing, then what? sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Ph: In my case any such specific encouragement was short lived and more in the form of heightened sensitivity to harmfulness than any inspiration to help others. (Well, did go the extra mile to write that letter. By the way, Ned's father read a part of it out at thegathering, apparently found it very comforting, I offer that kusala of mine for you to rejoice in, enjoy it while you can, haha) ... S: Anumodana...rejoicing while I have the chance:-) ... > And its gone now, as was the very short-lived liberation from hosility to GOTIWUBTA. (guys on the internet who understand better than abhidhamma.) I think the really helpful thing in all this was not finding myself inclined to help others, but understanding a liitle better that that inclination is a dhamma, or many dhammas, and arises beyond control, or doesn't, and no grief if it doesn't and there is hostility ibstead. I now believe that what we do is not as important as our understanding of what we do, and the anattaness of it, a notion which was for awhile anathema to me. Perhaps it will be again someday, no way to know. .... S: Yes, I agree that the understanding of the various inclinations, various dhammas are all anatta, all beyond control is most helpful. As it is for us, so it is for others - just passing, conditioned dhammas. No person to have hostility towards - just dhammas beyond anyone's control. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (31) #125053 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:35 pm Subject: Re: Hello dear friends! sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: >Phil wrote a lovely letter to his cousin's family and friends. Here it is" > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/124354 > > > > I read it. Very nice. It is difficult to say the right thing about such a situation, but it is good that Phil made an effort to be helpful. Very sweet. ... S: I agree. ... > Wow, you actually agree with me. Shocking! ;-)) Yes, there can be moments of mindfulness in-between moments of sloth/laziness. I would guess that how effective those moments are depend on how frequent they are. ... S: it is a little shocking, isn't it? Sloth/laziness is real too - can be known now, just like any other phenomena in life which 'appear' now. ... > Yes, my parents are doing well. My mother is going to retire this year so they will be able to relax and enjoy each some rest. Thanks for asking! I will go back to visit next year. ... S: Glad to hear it. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (20) #125054 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: But, what kind of help? Now I am thinking of a group, but I think i need more direct help. Also I dont want to be spereated from Dhamma. I want more and more Dhamma. .... S: One thing you could do in addition to other help and in addition to the Dhamma support you have, would be to join a drug addiction discussion group on-line. I just did a quick google for "drug addiction discussion group" and at a quick glance saw several that might be good. Some would be run by medical advisors too. When Jon had a serious (rare) medical issue a long time ago, we found a medical discussion group for those with the same condition very helpful. One gets information and companionship from others with the same disorder. You can write and receive specific feedback anytime day or night. That's what I'd do. No need to travel for it. It was the finding of that medical group as being so useful that gave us the idea of a dhamma discussion group. Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125055 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:14 pm Subject: Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, This is a good solution. I will do it. > > L: But, what kind of help? Now I am thinking of a group, but I think i need more direct help. Also I dont want to be spereated from Dhamma. I want more and more Dhamma. > .... > S: One thing you could do in addition to other help and in addition to the Dhamma support you have, would be to join a drug addiction discussion group on-line. I just did a quick google for "drug addiction discussion group" and at a quick glance saw several that might be good. Some would be run by medical advisors too. L: When I am here. I talk and get a lot of compasion and help from one anagarika who is also alkohol addicted person. He explain me I should go as fast as possible to anonymous alkoholics and drug addicted group. For him that was great help. He gave me a book of twelve steps, how to live with this kind of disease. Unfortunately this guy is leaving to the states so I will not have more support from him. That was really a bit of relife to know that are others like me. He said this is a disease, and no shame or anything. I told I will attend such kind of groups. But my brother told me: 'Yes lukas, there are such groups, were we live, but they are so anonymous you know (laught), that other day everyone in town know about u'. I told it to anagarika and he told very sure: 'So WHAT? So What? This is your business'. It was helpful. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125056 From: Lukas Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:18 pm Subject: To Phil. Dhamma recording szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil, This is a recording with Acharn. Rob K posted it before. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkvgmKYO30k From one birth moment, to another. That's life. Best wishes Lukas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125057 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thinking stories about ourselves. A victim? sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: When I am here. I talk and get a lot of compasion and help from one anagarika who is also alkohol addicted person. He explain me I should go as fast as possible to anonymous alkoholics and drug addicted group. For him that was great help. He gave me a book of twelve steps, how to live with this kind of disease. Unfortunately this guy is leaving to the states so I will not have more support from him. That was really a bit of relife to know that are others like me. > He said this is a disease, and no shame or anything. I told I will attend such kind of groups. ... S: Good - this is exactly what some of us recommended a long time ago. ... >But my brother told me: 'Yes lukas, there are such groups, were we live, but they are so anonymous you know (laught), that other day everyone in town know about u'. I told it to anagarika and he told very sure: 'So WHAT? So What? This is your business'. It was helpful. ... S: Yes, 'so what?' - let others know. People will respect you for it. So common. Just dhammas! I'm glad you've had the support of the anagarika. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125058 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello dear friends! nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Op 18-jun-2012, om 10:35 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > James: Phil wrote a lovely letter to his cousin's family and > friends. Here it is" ----- N: I had missed your letter but now I read it. I was moved by it. Especially your last meeting with Ned, this is really impressive. ----- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (20) #125059 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:56 pm Subject: Re: Broken heart? 7. The 'situation' - the story szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, > I said something more about thinking of what’s valuable in a certain situation. > > Sujin: "Now there is thinking about the situation, but that situation is not now. What > happens if one dies now? Only thinking of a situation that does not come now. It > indicates one’s attachment and clinging which will condition more in the future lives." > ***** L: Yes this is true. But still no one there to stop this thinking. Just listening, reading and studying Dhamma. Whatever happens next, whatever kind of thinking follows, this is out of control. Agitated mind with thinking stories, conceited minds..whatever.. I had some time ago a short conversation with a monk, that seemed to be concerned of me. I didnt look good and all this stress. He ask me how I am? And how is my practice? I really didnt know what to answer. And I just told that It is no soo good with me, but I dont think so this is any kind of practice. I remeber I told him: 'I think this is more a matter of knowing what is True, than any kind of practices'. He fully agreed and I went away. I am sharing this, cause for that moment that was very Dhammic answer for me. I ment by this answer, that even there is sadness, or anger or whatever, this is exactly how it is. This is a Truth. Best wishes Lukas #125060 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:08 am Subject: Re: Broken heart? 7. The 'situation' - the story szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, > L: Yes this is true. But still no one there to stop this thinking. Just listening, reading and studying Dhamma. Whatever happens next, whatever kind of thinking follows, this is out of control. Agitated mind with thinking stories, conceited minds..whatever.. I had some time ago a short conversation with a monk, that seemed to be concerned of me. I didnt look good and all this stress. He ask me how I am? And how is my practice? I really didnt know what to answer. L: I didnt know what to answer, cause I really dont know what people mean by practice. I really dont know. I was always trying to avoid monks, cause I was afraid they ask me this. How is your practice. And I really dont know how is my practice, and what they mean by that. For me this is life. And it's never good or bad. This is always exactly as it is. I really dont like to be asked like that, because I am tottaly uncapable to answer this. But this monk totally agreed with me, so I felt so happy afterwards, that he understand me. Really very very Dhammic short conversation, making mind more glad and happy >And I just told that It is no soo good with me, but I dont think so this is any kind of practice. L: Here a typo. 'But I dont think so this is a matter of any kind of practice'. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125061 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello dear friends! philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Thanks Nina I received a letter from his father. I had heard that he read out (at a memorial ceremony) a part of a poem I had written for his son, and when I opened the letter I assumed it would be full of tender recollection of his son and regret for their troubled relationship. Instead, the feeling was that it was a relief for him and his wife that their troub led son was gone and they wouldn't have to worry about him anymore. I was quite impressed by that. As the father wrote in the letter, "you never know." Nobody is locked into feelings, you never know how we or others will respond to tragedies, and other situations. The parents of a suicide are not necessarily doomed to grieve intensely, there can be relief instead, there is no telling, anatta. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil, > Op 18-jun-2012, om 10:35 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > > > James: Phil wrote a lovely letter to his cousin's family and > > friends. Here it is" > ----- > N: I had missed your letter but now I read it. I was moved by it. > Especially your last meeting with Ned, this is really impressive. > ----- > Nina. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (20) #125062 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:48 am Subject: Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Lukas Thanks, so nice to see A.Sujin, it takes me right back to Thailand. I haven't been listening to her as much recently, just writing the passages from SPD. But to speak honestly, off the top of my head, I wonder if a person who is addicted to a drug that can cause his death is not possibly in danger from hearing a teaching that says, no one is born, no one dies, just conditioned realities, moment of death is just a reality and another rebirth citta, and countless, this goes on, countless lifetimes. I think this one lifetime is very precious because you are so young and so sensitive to the Buddha's teaching. Because the monster opiates are involved in your story, I am a bit concerned that they might possibly at some moment take the "just like this one moment, death citta and rebirth citta," and in what feels like right understanding at the time, you will fail to sufficiently treasure this lifetime in which you have been born with sensitivity to the Dhamma, and the opportunity to understand more deeply. I am not saying we should cling with fear to the one lifetime, but I am just not sure that it is best for a drug addict to be thinking in terms of lifetime as one citta. But I'm not sure about that. Just talking off the top of my head. Thank you for the recording. I will listen to it every day and see what understanding it conditions each time. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Hi Phil, > This is a recording with Acharn. Rob K posted it before. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkvgmKYO30k > > > From one birth moment, to another. That's life. > > Best wishes > Lukas > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125063 From: Lukas Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:51 am Subject: Practice szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah and all, I think if someone considers more and more 5 khnadhas in his life, all realities that are really conditioned, even on intelectual level, then mind tends more and more into detachement, whether we want or not. And than the mind doesnt think at all what practice is. It is only mind that concern of what is there and what is real. And the concept of 'my practice', 'me practicing', 'me developing', 'me meditating' goes away. Like a dewdrop from a lotus flower goes away so naturally. And no space for any practices. Just a realities. And than the knowledge comes what is actually a way, a practice and what is no. The way is to know to understand each reality now. This is a corect way. And no need to think, 'oh now I develop this or that'. This is a knowledge of the 4th Noble Truth. The way leading to end of all dukkha. To end of all this conditioned dhammas. The way is not intention, no attention, not to try this or that. Not to try to have more this or that. This is just attachement and a lot of wrong views. This is not a right view that brings detachement. So I prefer listen and consider more and more of 5 khandhas. Not to think of Path, but really check it. I remember Acharn saying: 'This is not a matter of observing, this is a matter of right understanding'. A right view of each reality that appears now. Then we dont need to practice or do anything. All this ideas of practice it is just another wrong view. That doesnt help at all. And I think if someone is not scared of investigating each realities now, than one get more and more knowledge of understanding the 4 Noble Truths. Whatever appears now is dukka, attachement is dukkha, there is an end of dukkha, that is unconditioned reality and the way leading to an end of all dukkha, that is knowledge of the right way. And the way is to be developed, and will be developed. This is the correct way. We can think of 8fold Path. I will develop now more, right understanding, more right thinking. I will develop more silla or concentration, but this is not de way. The way is to understand each reality conditined to arise now. This is the first noble truth. And it must be understood, and will be understood. By knowing the 1st Noble Truth we know the 4th Noble Truth, that is practice. We cannot know the practice without knowing all realities now, that are dukkha. It must be understood first. So no more worries of practicing, just understanding of all five khandhas that are object of clinging and clinging itself. I think each one shall know what is a correct way of developement for himself. Just a thoughts to share. Best wishes Lukas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125064 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello dear friends! szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, I also miss the letter. Can u give me a link? best wishes lukas > I received a letter from his father. I had heard that he read out (at a memorial ceremony) a part of a poem I had written for his son, and when I opened the letter I assumed it would be full of tender recollection of his son and regret for their troubled relationship. Instead, the feeling was that it was a relief for him and his wife that their troub led son was gone and they wouldn't have to worry about him anymore. I was quite impressed by that. As the father wrote in the letter, "you never know." Nobody is locked into feelings, you never know how we or others will respond to tragedies, and other situations. The parents of a suicide are not necessarily doomed to grieve intensely, there can be relief instead, there is no telling, anatta. > > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear Phil, > > Op 18-jun-2012, om 10:35 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > > > > > James: Phil wrote a lovely letter to his cousin's family and > > > friends. Here it is" > > ----- > > N: I had missed your letter but now I read it. I was moved by it. > > Especially your last meeting with Ned, this is really impressive. > > ----- > > Nina. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (20) #125065 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:10 am Subject: Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, > But to speak honestly, off the top of my head, I wonder if a person who is addicted to a drug that can cause his death is not possibly in danger from hearing a teaching that says, no one is born, no one dies, just conditioned realities, moment of death is just a reality and another rebirth citta, and countless, this goes on, countless lifetimes. L: The problem with opiat addiction disease it's that it's a mortal disease and very hard to cure. Only 1 percent of people after a proffesional treatments in a closed facilities are able to manage to go out fully. So I think it's better to be with Dhamma. What can I loose? >I think this one lifetime is very precious because you are so young and so sensitive to the Buddha's teaching. Because the monster opiates are involved in your story, I am a bit concerned that they might possibly at some moment take the "just like this one moment, death citta and rebirth citta," and in what feels like right understanding at the time, you will fail to sufficiently treasure this lifetime in which you have been born with sensitivity to the Dhamma, and the opportunity to understand more deeply. I am not saying we should cling with fear to the one lifetime, but I am just not sure that it is best for a drug addict to be thinking in terms of lifetime as one citta. L: But what else can I do? Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125066 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Audio 2012 "Do you really know breath?" moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert, all, you wrote: (MN.118)I. Whenever the disciple (1) mindfully makes a long inhalation or exhalation, or (2) makes a short inhalation or exhalation, or (3) trains himself to inhale or exhale whilst experiencing the whole (breath-) body, or (4) whilst calming down this bodily function (i.e. the breath)-at such a time the disciple dwells in 'contemplation of the body', full of energy, comprehending it, mindful, after subduing worldly greed and grief. For, inhalation and exhalation I call one amongst the corporeal phenomena. > > II. Whenever the disciple trains himself to inhale or exhale (1) whilst feeling rapture (piiti), or (2) joy (sukha), or (3) the mental functions (cittasankhaara), or (4) whilst calming down the mental functions-at such a time he dwells in 'contemplation of the feelings', full of energy, clearly comprehending them, mindful, after subduing worldly greed and grief. For, the full awareness of In- and Out-breathing I call one amongst the feelings. This seems like a very nice version of the sutta. I will read it some more. However, on the subject of the breath rupa, I think there is a more specific indication of what in the breath it is, since it is said to be something different from just the passage of the air. D: I like Ven Nyanatiloka's translations , besides his wellknown Buddhist Dictionary ,he collected quite a number of sutta sources to explain by the Buddha's sayings the core of the Dhamma , i.e. the 4 Noble Truths. The mentioned link originated from 'The Word of the Buddha ' on-line version. I.M.H.O. one of the best Dhamma introductions . I compared with Ven. Thanissaro translation of MN 118 , different words but the key statements are similar: -inhalation and exhalation I call one amongst the corporeal phenomena. -full awareness of In- and Out-breathing I call one amongst the feelings.. I do not know how much time you (can) spend for contemplation ,sometimes hints like above may give a clue. As I understand it distinguishes between rupa and nama and it is quite easy to recognize : the bodily phenomena appears like a bellows (the handles stand for the muscles of respiration ) and nama means the awareness on the sensation when inhaling or exhaling of the air touches the respiratiory much more can be said about breath , in German 'Atem' with an interesting background of etymology , but I assume your question concerned to the nama -rupa relation.. with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125067 From: Lukas Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:37 am Subject: Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Just to be honest. I am really scared to come back. But now I cannot stay here any longer, no other place to go also. Best wishes Lukas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125069 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:52 am Subject: Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Lukas 1% seems very low, but in any case, those 99% didn't have Dhamma, you do. I am not saying that I think you shouldn't value the deep truth preached by A. Sujin, as long as you maintain perspective about the value of fighting for your health, and life, and opportunity to continue develop understanding. But already you are saying only 1% survive, what can I do? Anyways, I know you really value listening to Dhamma, so when you say you will not drink or do drugs while preparing for A Sujin's trip (and don't forget she might not be able to come) I have zero doubt you will make it. I am worrying more about later. Of course understanding will probably be developing too, there is no telling whether there will be abstinence or not. I told my drug addict cousin that his fate was out of my hands, and of course that is true for you too but to you who understands Dhamma I can also say your fate is out *your* hands! I'm quite optimistic about you, though, much more than I was about him. You have sensitivity to true Dhamma. , Phil p.s As for the link to that letter , sorry, I am falling asleep, please search under "letter about my dear fried", I think that was the title... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Phil, > > > But to speak honestly, off the top of my head, I wonder if a person who is addicted to a drug that can cause his death is not possibly in danger from hearing a teaching that says, no one is born, no one dies, just conditioned realities, moment of death is just a reality and another rebirth citta, and countless, this goes on, countless lifetimes. > > L: The problem with opiat addiction disease it's that it's a mortal disease and very hard to cure. Only 1 percent of people after a proffesional treatments in a closed facilities are able to manage to go out fully. So I think it's better to be with Dhamma. What can I loose? > > > >I think this one lifetime is very precious because you are so young and so sensitive to the Buddha's teaching. Because the monster opiates are involved in your story, I am a bit concerned that they might possibly at some moment take the "just like this one moment, death citta and rebirth citta," and in what feels like right understanding at the time, you will fail to sufficiently treasure this lifetime in which you have been born with sensitivity to the Dhamma, and the opportunity to understand more deeply. I am not saying we should cling with fear to the one lifetime, but I am just not sure that it is best for a drug addict to be thinking in terms of lifetime as one citta. > > L: But what else can I do? > > Best wishes > Lukas > Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125070 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:00 am Subject: Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Lukas As I just wrote in the other letter, I think you will be ok when you first get home, you will be preparing to welcome Ajahn, who has said that she wants to come to meet you. Don't forget that even in the end if she is unable to come because of her age, she said she would, Ajahn had that intention to come all the way to Europe to meet you, that intention arose. What a wonderful thing! You will not show disrespect for Ajahn and waste the opportunity on the cheap pleasure of intoxicants. Be careful, not even one beer. You can do it! Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear Phil, > Just to be honest. I am really scared to come back. But now I cannot stay here any longer, no other place to go also. > > Best wishes > Lukas > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125071 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:12 am Subject: Re: A letter about my dear friend... philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello Lukas, here is that letter. It is not hardcore Dhamma, but I was writing for people who don't know Dhamma. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear Group > > > Here is the revised version of the letter that was sent out. I think it's interesting to note how I ended up just referring to "Buddhist metaphors" at two points to share the teaching of the two darts and the emotions as passing clouds rather than give what felt like a mini-lecture on "Buddhist psychology" which would have seemed as using the tragedy as an opportunity to proseletyze. (sp?) And I just talked about two other points - the fluidity of mind states and physical and verbal intimation - without using any reference to Buddhism whatsoever. So in the end, a more effective sharing of the Dhamma. > > I also took out some harsh language. I find it interesting that though I was getting irritated by the whole procedure, effort arose to keep working on the letter, and finally a warm, well-toned letter went out that has been receiving a lot of appreciation. I think this was a case of karuna at work. There wasn't aversion anymore, not about the death anyways, but something kept pushing me to get the letter out in a better form. > > I think this part is especially good: "We can assign the role of sufferer to people, but we don't know, so it isn't fair. Happy people don't commit suicide, right? Wrong. Because there are no "happy people", there are only moments of happiness, or fear, or guilt, or generosity, or compassion or whatever that come and go. So let's not latch on to the idea of "Ned the sufferer." It is not fair." > > Please read, if you are interested. No need for any comment, cheers. > > ************** > > Dear Friends, > > I am writing to express some thoughts about the sad news. This is out of the blue, and probably proper manners would mean waiting until later, I'm not familiar with the proper etiquette here. But I really wanted to get some things down and out to you all. > > The initial e-mail by which I learned that Ned had died was of course shocking, but I found that the e-mails that followed in which people expressed their first reaction compounded the pain involved in the first one. I think I could say that those following e-mails took the intense pain that was involved in hearing about Ned's suicide, and immediately started to compound it into suffering. > > I'm kind of interested in the difference between pain and suffering - we are all subject to pain, it arises along with certain things we see, taste, touch, feel and so on. There is a metaphor in Buddhist psychology of two darts. The first dart is the pain, but the second dart is the way our mind takes the pain and compounds it into suffering. So what I felt in the e-mails was that people were immediately taking the pain of hearing about Ned's suicide, and starting immediately to compound it into a lot more suffering. First of all, our own suffering, of course, as people who had lost a beloved friend. But also by taking the pain Ned must have of course felt at times, maybe many times, and weaving it into a story about "Ned, the sufferer, who killed himself", "Ned who had so many problems", "Ned who had cut himself off from people" etc. His death and the way he died, and indeed the troubles he had in recent years is in fact just one aspect of who he is (he lives on in our minds) and was and identifying it with him in a way that traps him into the story of "Ned who commited suicide, Ned who was suffering so much" is just not fair. We start to create this scenario of Ned the sufferer, and latch on to it. I am not saying that there wasn't suffering for Ned - of course there was - but we are doing a terrible disservice to our dear friend if we define him in those terms. And we are also doing a disservice to ourselves by identifying with a painful story that our minds have worked together to create and feed. > > As I understand the mind, and our behaviour, what we do and think and say is not the product of a person who is fixed and locked into behaving in certain ways, what we do and think and say is actually the working of impulses of mental moments or intentions, they arise in a wink of an eye, and fall away again. It's all so fluid. What we take for "I" or "Ned" is a fluid working of these impulses. So if we say "Ned was a sad person", we should actually say "there were a lot of sad moments for Ned", that is coming closer to the truth. And we don't know. Nobody knows what kind of moments arise for people except the understanding of that person him or herself. We can assign the role of sufferer to people, but we don't know, so it isn't fair. Happy people don't commit suicide, right? Wrong. Because there are no "happy people", there are only moments of happiness, or fear, or guilt, or generosity, or compassion or whatever that come and go. So let's not latch on to the idea of "Ned the sufferer." It is not fair. > > There is another Buddhist metaphor I like, emotions as clouds that come and go in the sky, so fluid. Is there something shining constantly beyond the clouds, even the darkest ones? Well, that will depend on each person's beliefs. But it is definitely true that emotions are fluid, they come and go. And that was true for Ned too. I think there might be a tendency, again, to think of Ned as trapped in some dark tunnel of suffering, that he could not see out of, just an occasional glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel, and he lost sight of that light, and so on. But we don't know and evidence to be shared later goes against my being able to believe that. My impression is that for all of us on the highway of life, there are of course tunnels, we speed along, go through dark days and back into the light. I guess it is safe to speculate that for people who suffer from alcoholism, for example, there are more tunnels, and that they are probably longer and darker than for those of us who don't - that is a fair speculation maybe - and also that in those tunnels there are more and sharper curves, and plunges and swerves. My feeling is that Ned got into one of those occasional tunnels, and he crashed, he didn't make it out this time. He made it out before, but not this time. But the tunnel and what he experienced in it was not who he is, who he was. Let's not define him in those terms, please. I suppose I'm repeating myself here.... > > Here is something I find encouraging. As with many of you who lost touch with him in recent years, I spent a few years hearing long distance stories about Ned down and out in Montreal, out of touch with everyone, cutting himself off from people, in deep and dark and very dire straights. (straits?) And I fell into that trap of making stories and images of what his life was like, speculating about the misery. After a couple of years of that I finally had the chance to meet him, down at St. Pat's. Oh my god! What kind of ravaged ghoul would appear before my eyes??? What could I say to him, would he even talk to me???? Ummmm, guess what? He hadn't changed a bit! The same dazzling wit and intelligence, and physically he looked better than most of the other age-ravaged people I was seeing down there, and in the mirror! (haha, it's a joke...) We can say that people's mental moments, those impulses, take shape in their movements, in their facial expressions, in their tone of voice, and are written on their faces. In more conventional terms, we say that people grow into the faces they have earned. Some people look battered down by life, embittered, worn out. Well, in case you didn't have a chance to meet Ned in recent years, I have some good news. His was not the face, not the body language, not the voice, not the hug, not the smile, not the general atmosphere of a person who was beat down and battered. That kind of thing can't be hidden, or faked. I'm saying that he was not a person who was living in a dark tunnel, deprived of hope. > > Here's the best part. I could have reduced this whole long letter to this one anecdote. I saw Ned again last summer, in Montreal. By some happy chance I booked a hotel room on Park Avenue, not knowing where he lived, and it turned out he was literally a stone's throw away. It was a hard few days for me, for reasons related to my mother's Alzheimer's disease, and Ned was such a great support for me. I remember one hot, hot afternoon in particular when I got off the #80 bus at the corner of Park Avenue and Mount Royal and was just kind of standing there, jet-lagged and kind of in shock in probably the bleakest and darkest and most exhausted mood I can remember being in. Mostly it was due to my mother's condition, dealing with it on my own for a few days before Bill and Sue arrived later that week. (By the way, another story, but I think she has gone beyond most hardship now, that is one silver lining, but last summer was very hard because she was still living in the general community at her home, and it was causing very upsetting troubles...No, not Sue!!! My mother! Sorry, a little comic relief.) So I was exhausted, kind of in shock. And I was standing there at a total loss, when - I'm not making this up - I heard a familar voice call out my name and there was Ned, coming along the street, a saviour for me at that moment. We went for lunch, and talked, and laughed a lot, and then to his apartment, he loved it so and was so proud of it, with its sprawling view of the mountain. We listened to music, and talked and talked, and by the time I left, I felt so much better. So he was a pillar of strength for me that day. So the next time you find yourself imagining Ned as living in some kind of misery, alone in Montreal (he has lots of friends who adore him there, by the way) please remember Ned the way I remember him, the last time I saw him, shining for me when I needed someone to shine. En bref, he was doing ok. I would like to say great, but I guess that would be going too far. > > Umm, where am I going with this? There was something else....oh yes, of course, life goes on. Depending on various degrees to which we believe it or not, life goes on. A return to the light that we were born from, to that divine essence? Rebirth? Evolution through many lifetimes? Or something simply unexpressable in conventional terms? As I'm concerned there are just way too many hints about something beyond death for me to possibly believe that there was a being known as Ned that was snuffed out like a candle after burning briefly, end of story. (By the way, I read something interesting recently, that death is not the opposite of life, it is the opposite of birth. Life is something indpendent of birth and death, it goes on.) But even for those who believe that Ned was nothing but that briefly burning candle, what a brilliant candle! What a beautiful intelligence Ned had. Let us pay honour to his great intelligence by considering our response to this tragedy with intelligence rather than reducing it to pitiful stories that are so limited and limiting compared to the intelligence he represents. Of course an intelligent response involves sorrow, a lot of it. But the intelligence lives on, and Ned is and was an agent of that light, I believe that absolutely. > > I hope that is helpful, I find that writing it helped me at the very least. Hope to see you all this summer. > > *********************** > > > Phil > Reply | Messages in this Topic (4) #125072 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah(and Nina), you wrote: D: let me bring our understanding to the point: you state no difference between khandhas and the 6 senses media .... S: By "6 senses media" are you referring to the 6 pairs of ayatanas or something else? Khandhas and ayatanas refer to different aspects of paramattha dhammas. They are used to help us understand these realities from different approaches. D: you are right 'sense media' refers to the pairs of ayatana .. 5th in place . When we are talking e.g. about vinnana khandha (3rd place) we speak of eye consciousness ,ear consciousness etc. Citta , Cetasika (and Rupa) provide the' picture'.. . the sense media ,isn't it? S:For example, heat is a rupa. It shares all the characteristics of rupa with all other rupa khandha realities. Each one is different - it arises and falls away never to reappear. All day we cling to that reality, that khandha which has gone. We cling to nothing in effect. Heat is also an ayatana - an outer ayatana or what I think you refer to as "sense media". The ayatanas stress the coming together or meeting of realities. In order for heat rupa to be experienced, there has to be the "meeting" of body sense, heat, body consciousness, contact and other associated mental factors. No self, no being involved at all - just conditioned dhammas. The "miracle" of conditioned dhammas coming together at this moment. So the characteristic of heat, the reality of heat is just heat whether we refer to it as a khandha, an ayatana or a dhatu. However, the Buddha used different ways of description and explanation because he knew that just one kind of description was not enough for most listeners to understand realities as anatta. D: I need to see that in practise , is the text below in line with your thinking? Maha Satipatthana Sutta:[3] "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media? There is the case where he discerns the eye, he discerns forms, he discerns the fetter that arises dependent on both. He discerns how there is the arising of an unarisen fetter. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of a fetter once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of a fetter that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining sense media: ear, nose, tongue, body, & intellect.) "In this way he remains focused internally on the mental qualities in & of themselves, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media .... D:> The issue concerns how we distínguish realities and concepts and I believe this is important in Abhidhamma . .... S: and what the Abhidhamma stresses is the understanding of realities now, such as heat or hardness or thinking - whatever appears now. This is the only way that the confusion about realities and concepts will ever be resolved...> D: I think there are texts in which the Buddha talked about arising and falling away of the khandhas , ... S: Yes, I've quoted many suttas in this regard. No question about it. This is why the Buddha taught about dhammas as khandhas - to stress the impermanence of each one. ... D:>one question however is whether it doesn'tt concern the khandha breakdown ( of Dependent Origination ) i.e. temporarily at death or finally (nibbana). ... S: it's all about now, realities now. The Buddha taught us to understand what is real at this very moment. This is the only way that DO, death and so on can be understood. D: well , Ven . Buddhagosa's interpretation is understood by many to concern 3 lives. The old discussion of jati comes into my mind .. D:> The other is the consideration whether the Buddha distinguished at all between realities and concepts. .... S: Heat is a reality which can be directly known now. 'Butter-jar" is a concept which can only ever be thought about. All the teachings are for understanding, testing out at this moment. D: Sarah, you sidestepped the next sentence : "If not, what I suppose , to talk of arising and falling khandhas equally mean the dhammas which are grouped under them." In other words , if there the distinction between realities and concepts is only done within Abhidhamma and no such seperation in the Sutta Pitaka , the sayings of the Sutta Pitaka can not be used to argue that khandha isn't a concept in Abhidhamma , can it ? with Metta Dieter. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125073 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Audio 2012 "Do you really know breath?" epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Dieter, Sarah, Nina and all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > I compared with Ven. Thanissaro translation of MN 118 , different words but the key statements are similar: > -inhalation and exhalation I call one amongst the corporeal phenomena. > -full awareness of In- and Out-breathing I call one amongst the feelings.. > > I do not know how much time you (can) spend for contemplation, sometimes hints like above may give a clue. > As I understand it distinguishes between rupa and nama and it is quite easy to recognize : > the bodily phenomena appears like a bellows (the handles stand for the muscles of respiration ) and nama means the awareness on the sensation when inhaling or exhaling of the air touches the respiratiory > > much more can be said about breath , in German 'Atem' with an interesting background of etymology , but I assume your question concerned > to the nama -rupa relation.. At the moment I am most interested in the detailed answer of what the subtle breath-rupa is. I understand in a general way that it will be the sensation of the breath as it is inhaled and exhaled, and in the Visudhimagga I believe it has been isolated as the sensation of the breath entering and exiting the nostrils, so that it is felt on the skin just below, and perhaps in, the nostrils. This rupa has been described, however, as an extremely subtle one that is difficult to focus on and experience, and so I am wondering if there is a particular subtle aspect of that sensation that is considered a special rupa pertaining to the breath that is not caught up in all the many general sensations that occur with each breath in various parts of the breathing apparatus. Perhaps the reason this meditation object is complicated is because it does involve so many operations, from muscles to lungs to passage of air in various areas, which would entail many, many different kinds of rupas that could be the object of awareness. In parts of the sutta different aspects of the breathing are emphasized, the "whole body" or "whole breath body" or the "breathing as it goes through the whole body," depending on translations, or the "calming of the bodily fabrication" or fabrications, or the series of the breath moving through the body and out of the body in a cycle of sensations, as has been spoken about in some commentaries, and other patterns and areas of attention that can attend the passage of the breath. So I would like to hear some more detail on what is to be taken out of all these possibilities and what is considered, in Abhidhamma commentary, to be the specific rupa or rupas that arise in awareness when breath is the object of satipatthana. This is one of those rare cases where I think the definition of the rupa is much more complicated than understanding what the nama is. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125074 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:55 pm Subject: Broken heart? 8. Security? More attachment. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas & all, We may think that we cannot live alone and that we need the support and companionship of another person. Isn't this just thinking with more attachment? ***** SECURITY?‹ I asked if it was a matter of understanding attachment now. Sujin: "That’s all, because the previous moment has just gone. Life is just this arising and passing away. Life, it is conditioned. No one can keep it even for a second. If one were born as an animal, one could not help that way of life [i.e. a life with strong attachment], because there is not enough understanding to think whether to be married or not. But as a human being one has a higher level of understanding and considering. One knows the accumulations, that they are a condition for future moments. "What about being alone in this life, since one has been married many times before? Have we have not had enough yet of birth and death in sa.msaara? One can still live alone and enjoy oneself, as one does not have accumulations to be the ascetic in the jungle. Enjoy seeing people in society, helping as much as possible, leading a perfect life so one can have more time for developing kusala when one is single." I should mention here, that Khun Sujin is not referring to people who are married or in partnerships already. We should remember that in the absolute sense, living alone is living with and being aware of realities through the six doorways now. I asked what type of kusala she meant. Sujin: "All types of kusala. One will sleep better, having less boredom and cares. One does not have to think about one's children and grandchildren in future." I asked if this was for everyone. Sujin: "It’s not a rule to be followed. One cannot go against one’s conditions." ***** Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125075 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas & all, Great reflections on "practice" and dhammas now if your other posts. >> From: Lukas >Just to be honest. I am really scared to come back. But now I cannot stay here any longer, no other place to go also. .... S: Only an anagami doesn't have fear. I heard K.Sujin (KK 20110 talking about how we usually think ahead - "I will do this" or "that's what should be done" - with no understanding of what is appearing now. She was stressing how the dhammas we talk about are the realities which appear now, like seeing and visible object. Otherwise, if there's no awareness now, our thinking takes us away from this moment to different thoughts, different concerns that seem so important. Without the understanding of reality now, there will be no conditions to ever become enlightened because there will be no knowing of whatever appears. **** KS: Are you interested in Dhamma? P: Yes. KS: You mean reality right now or what? Everything is a reality - reality which is not self. That is the most important.... The most important thing is understanding of dhamma that appears. *** Phil asks a question about a complicated Dhamma detail in one of the books. KS: If the words in the book will lead to more understanding of reality, that's right, but if they do not because one just thinks that one understands about the term "dhamma" already, but doesn't understand any dhamma now, it's useless. What about the next life? One will forget all about what one has read. **** Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125076 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Nina, Azita & all, > > >________________________________ > > From: Nina van Gorkom > > >I was considering the way Kh Sujin answers people's requests for > >advice. Ken, I also thought of you, re abortion Rob K mentioned the > >other day, and your reaction that this is a highly sensitive issue. I > >would like you to be happy about the Dhamma. Kh Sujin would never > >judge anybody about such issues. It is such a heavy decision and > >mostly it would not be taken lightly by the persons concerned. Rob K > >quoted an example of a monk giving advice about abortion, but that is > >a different matter. Monks are supposed to live like arahats, they > >cannot take any life or drink. They have to follow the rules of the > >Vinaya. > ... > S: Yes, I was going to mention in that context that the Parajika offense is for the monk, the lay-person. > > > +++++++++++ dear Sarah, Nina, kenh, all I realize that a laymen can't make a parajika (he doesn't wear robes, how could he be disrobed?) by advising someone to have an abortion.. My point with Kenh was really about the likelihood of it being akusala: here is the conversation again: ---------------------------------- RK: > What if the doctor who is scheduled to perform the abortion refuses because he believes it is bad kamma, is he also misguided? ---------------------------------- KENH: I think he is misguided in thinking of kamma as a medical >procedure rather than as a paramattha dhamma. In fact, he doesn't know which kamma is present at any one moment, and there is no efficacy in favouring one conventional story over another. >The doctor's livelihood is to perform operations as [legally] directed by the hospital. He should carry on that way, confident in his understanding of kamma and vipaka. << ++++++++++++++== Let's change it to a insect exterminator as it seems abortion is a sensitive issue.> IMHO the insect exterminator would be making akusala. I would never advise him to stop his job - heaven forbid-in fact please make him the pre-eminent insect exterminator in the country. . But what I wonder about is Ken's old reply where he says the Doctor (read insect exterminator) should carry on , 'confident in his understanding of kamma and vipaka'? What is the understanding ken is meaning? robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125077 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:41 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 2, 6. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, We cling to what we see and we take for a “whole”, for “self” what in fact are many different realities appearing through different doorways. For example, we may think that we can touch what appears through the eyes, but what is touched is a completely different reality experienced through a different doorway; it is tangible object. Tangible object is entirely different from visible object and it arises through different conditions. Hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion and pressure are tangible objects which can be directly experienced through the bodysense, not through the eyesense. The understanding of different realities appearing through different doorways is the Middle Way that will lead to detachment from the concept of self and eventually from all realities. Before hearing the Dhamma we knew about the attachment that is coarse, but we did not realize that there is clinging time and again to what we experience through the six doorways. When we like what we experience, for example, through the eye-door, we continue thinking of it with attachment. We are inclined to build up in our mind long stories about the person or thing we believe we see. We all have accumulations for building up stories, but we can realize thinking as nåma, different from seeing or from visible object. We should not try to suppress thinking, but we should realize as it is. Thinking is a reality and, thus, its characteristic can be known when it appears. The story we are thinking of is not a reality, it is merely a concept. When we were outside in the garden of the hotel, talking about Dhamma, there was the sound of a band playing music. When hearing that sound several of us had a mental image of people marching and playing music. A mental image of people marching and beating drums is only a concept we can think of. We were again building up stories. Acharn Sujin gave an explanation of this in Thai which Bhikkhu Dhammadharo translated: “ When we see just for a moment then what we see has already fallen away. When we see things with which were familiar then immediately there's the tendency to build up or make up long stories about them. Things with which we are familiar, we tend to think about for a long time, whereas things we just know vaguely may only be with us for a moment or two and then we drop them. But things we are very familiar with, we carry on and on and on. They're both the same – say visual object appearing through the eyes in both cases, carrying on the story, fantasizing. The thinking about the visual object can go on and on and on, short or long depending, but really in both cases it's just visual object. It's the same with every doorway. Benares, Hotel de Paris, this garden and all the people who are sitting in it, talking about Dhamma - put them together in one moment of citta which is in fact what is happening because we have the concept of that all in one moment of citta, then suppose we should die at this very moment. Then as the citta containing the world, Benares, Hotel de Paris, people sitting in the garden, falls away. So does Benares, do does Hotel de Paris, so do all the people sitting in the garden, all fall away with that citta, never to appear again. But the only reason that it seems to us that Benares, Hotel de Paris, the people sitting in the garden talking about Dhamma don't fall away is because we are carrying on the story, we keep it going. But if we would die,there is the end of the story.” Venerable Dhammadharo remarked: “ This must lead to more detachment.” ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125078 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, A very good extract and also very good to be reminded that we uaually think: I will do this. Very useful for all of us. Nina. Op 19-jun-2012, om 7:25 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > heard K.Sujin (KK 20110 talking about how we usually think ahead - > "I will do this" or "that's what should be done" - with no > understanding of what is appearing now. She was stressing how the > dhammas we talk about are the realities which appear now, like > seeing and visible object. Otherwise, if there's no awareness now, > our thinking takes us away from this moment to different thoughts, > different concerns that seem so important. Without the > understanding of reality now, there will be no conditions to ever > become enlightened because there will be no knowing of whatever > appears. > **** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125079 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Audio 2012 "Do you really know breath?" nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E, Op 19-jun-2012, om 0:44 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > So I would like to hear some more detail on what is to be taken > out of all these possibilities and what is considered, in > Abhidhamma commentary, to be the specific rupa or rupas that arise > in awareness when breath is the object of satipatthana. > > This is one of those rare cases where I think the definition of the > rupa is much more complicated than understanding what the nama is. ------ N: As I said in a post to you before, I think the fact that this breath ruupa is conditioned by citta points to its subtlety. One has to be sure that it is this ruupa, not something else we take for breath. Another matter is: can one select the object of awareness that is the present reality presenting itself? ----- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125080 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: ___________________________ > dear Sarah, Nina, kenh, all > I realize that a laymen can't make a parajika (he doesn't wear robes, how could he be disrobed?) by advising someone to have an abortion.. > My point with Kenh was really about the likelihood of it being akusala: .... S: Like most of the day, like now - when it's not dana, sila or bhavana, it's akusala. I understand your point, but I think that another point is that rather than in thinking in terms of various scenarios, various stories about particular situations, more precious is the understanding of the present paramattha dhammas. I'll let Ken explain his own meaning. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125081 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:02 am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 2, 6. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina -- > > Before hearing the Dhamma we knew about the attachment that is > coarse, but we did not realize that there is clinging time and again > to what we experience through the six doorways. When we like what we > experience, for example, throug the eye-door, we continue thinking > of it with attachment. I remember hearing, or reading, "we *like* to recognize a tree." There is the simile of the bird landing on the branch and so so so soon its shadow to get at how quickly a sense door process is followed by a mind door process. Is there a smile that captures how quickly there is attachment? Of course I remember that the first javana cittas are rooted in lobha.. Phil We are inclined to build up in our mind long > stories about the person or thing we believe we see. We all have > accumulations for building up stories, but we can realize thinking as > nåma, different from seeing or from visible object. We should not try > to suppress thinking, but we should realize as it is. Thinking is a > reality and, thus, its characteristic can be known when it appears. > The story we are thinking of is not a reality, it is merely a concept. > > When we were outside in the garden of the hotel, talking about > Dhamma, there was the sound of a band playing music. When hearing > that sound several of us had a mental image of people marching and > playing music. A mental image of people marching and beating drums is > only a concept we can think of. We were again building up stories. > > Acharn Sujin gave an explanation of this in Thai which Bhikkhu > Dhammadharo translated: > > " When we see just for a moment then what we see has already fallen > away. > When we see things with which were familiar then immediately there's the > tendency to build up or make up long stories about them. Things with > which > we are familiar, we tend to think about for a long time, whereas > things we > just know vaguely may only be with us for a moment or two and then we > drop > them. But things we are very familiar with, we carry on and on and on. > > They're both the same – say visual object appearing through the eyes in > both cases, carrying on the story, fantasizing. The thinking > about the visual object can go on and on and on, short or long > depending, > but really in both cases it's just visual object. It's the same with > every > doorway. > > Benares, Hotel de Paris, this garden and all the people who are > sitting in it, talking about Dhamma - put them together in one moment of > citta which is in fact what is happening because we have the concept of > that all in one moment of citta, then suppose we should die at this very > moment. Then as the citta containing the world, Benares, Hotel de Paris, > people sitting in the garden, falls away. So does Benares, do does > Hotel de Paris, so do all the people sitting in the garden, all fall > away > with that citta, never to appear again. > > But the only reason that it seems to us that Benares, Hotel de Paris, > the people sitting in the garden talking about Dhamma don't fall away is > because we are carrying on the story, we keep it going. But if we > would die,there is the end of the story." > > Venerable Dhammadharo remarked: " This must lead to more detachment." > > ****** > > Nina. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125082 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:29 am Subject: Re: 2007 audio - 20. Seclusion now! epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Back to the seclusion and "how about now?", we know that references to the forest like in the satipatthana Sutta are referring to ... > > KS: One is already there. I hope this is not taken the wrong way, but this is very 'zen.' In a good way... The idea that the teaching is realized in the moment and that there is only the reality of this moment is an approach that I think is shared by K. Sujin with the zen masters. I'm sure everything else is very different, but I find it pretty neat, from opposite ends of the spectrum. In one zen story, the monk is chastised for saying that a 'bird has flown away' because he is thinking about the past event and the absence of the bird rather than the reality of the moment. The moment of thinking can also be known as such, but I don't think the zen master would disagree with that either. Anyway, I will now go hide... ... > S: But then why does it say "an abode favorable to the development of concentration..."? > > KS: Yes, because concentration is not the understanding of reality at any time. > > S: But it suggests that it's favorable for something that is kusala because... > > KS: For those who have accumulations and some can even attain the Divine Eye. > > S: So suggesting those that perhaps have already developed samatha to such a degree, but then it goes on to say "For this bhikkhu's mind has long been dissipated among visible data....etc"**, so this doesn't suggest someone who has the accumulations naturally. > > KS: Did he suggest any layman? > > S: Maybe not. No layman, but even for a bhikkhu - because usually the way I respond or answer is, like in the Satipatthana Sutta - for those who have the accumulations and those who have already gone to the forest and those who have already developed samatha.... It may be that for those who have the accumulations for concentration, going into physical seclusion is supportive. Wouldn't the rupas of the forest and the quiet also be a reflection of vipaka? So perhaps the going into concentration and the going into the forest is part of that person's natural development and the vipaka rupas that are experienced reflect that at that point...? > KS: Shall we postpone the development of panna from now on? > > S: Well, of course it's not what I'm advocating, but a lot of people today talk about developing jhana and they don't see it as.... > KS: ...Excuse me, if there is no panna right now to understand this moment - whether it is calm or not, can anyone reach jhana, that stage of calmness? So it has start or begin from this moment. ...If there is no panna at this moment, how can it grow? > > S: No matter what the place ....."seclusion" has to be now. > ***** > > *Vism: VIII,153. "Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing." > > **"For this bhikkhu's mind has long been dissipated among visible data, etc., as its object, and it does not want to mount the object of concentration-through-mindfulness-of-breathing; it runs off the track like a chariot harnessed to a wild ox." The implication here seems to be that the mind will want to run off to sense objects, so concentration is not natural at that point; and that physical seclusion is being suggested to train the mind. Still, K. Sujin's point that if one goes to the forest with akusala or without understanding, really adds to the understanding of conditions for development in any case. With understanding, and with kusala, could the physical conditions of quiet, etc. help to train the mind, or is this never the case? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125083 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Audio 2012 "Do you really know breath?" epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: As I said in a post to you before, I think the fact that this > breath ruupa is conditioned by citta points to its subtlety. One has > to be sure that it is this ruupa, not something else we take for breath. If the breath rupa is conditioned by citta, does that mean that it only arises when there is awareness for that citta? Or does any citta give rise to the breath rupa? Is there any way to describe what the characteristic of that rupa is? For instance, hardness is obvious, and so is 'visible object' at least to an extent. But it is hard to understand what the special breath rupa is like without any description of its physical characteristic. > Another matter is: can one select the object of awareness that is the > present reality presenting itself? I know the answer to that is that one cannot select the object of awareness that is presented at any moment. Still, there are those monks who were skilled in following breath and developing jhana, and I guess for them they would have many such occasions. For myself, of course there is no skill in that way, but if the breath rupa arises, it is just good to know how it would be identified, as opposed to the passage of air and other rupas that are not conditioned by citta. Any passage that describes the characteristic of this rupa would 'close the loop' for me on this. :-) Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125084 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Audio 2012 "Do you really know breath?" moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, you wrote: At the moment I am most interested in the detailed answer of what the subtle breath-rupa is. I understand in a general way that it will be the sensation of the breath as it is inhaled and exhaled, and in the Visudhimagga I believe it has been isolated as the sensation of the breath entering and exiting the nostrils, so that it is felt on the skin just below, and perhaps in, the nostrils. This rupa has been described, however, as an extremely subtle one that is difficult to focus on and experience, and so I am wondering if there is a particular subtle aspect of that sensation that is considered a special rupa pertaining to the breath that is not caught up in all the many general sensations that occur with each breath in various parts of the breathing apparatus. Perhaps the reason this meditation object is complicated is because it does involve so many operations, from muscles to lungs to passage of air in various areas, which would entail many, many different kinds of rupas that could be the object of awareness. In parts of the sutta different aspects of the breathing are emphasized, the "whole body" or "whole breath body" or the "breathing as it goes through the whole body," depending on translations, or the "calming of the bodily fabrication" or fabrications, or the series of the breath moving through the body and out of the body in a cycle of sensations, as has been spoken about in some commentaries, and other patterns and areas of attention that can attend the passage of the breath. So I would like to hear some more detail on what is to be taken out of all these possibilities and what is considered, in Abhidhamma commentary, to be the specific rupa or rupas that arise in awareness when breath is the object of satipatthana. This is one of those rare cases where I think the definition of the rupa is much more complicated than understanding what the nama is. D: I think the main points you mention are becoming obvious when you practise anapanasati ( Wiki provides good sources to dig) and certainly there are many references in the Canon and commentaries to search for. with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125085 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob K., Ken H., and Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > ...Monks are supposed to live like arahats, they > > >cannot take any life or drink. They have to follow the rules of the > > >Vinaya. > > ... > > S: Yes, I was going to mention in that context that the Parajika offense is for the monk, the lay-person. Rob K.: > ...My point with Kenh was really about the likelihood of it being akusala: > here is the conversation again: > ---------------------------------- > RK: > What if the doctor who is scheduled to perform the abortion > refuses because he believes it is bad kamma, is he also misguided? > ---------------------------------- > > KENH: I think he is misguided in thinking of kamma as a medical >procedure > rather than as a paramattha dhamma. ... He should carry on that way, confident in > his understanding of kamma and vipaka. > << > ++++++++++++++== > Let's change it to a insect exterminator as it seems abortion is a sensitive issue.> > > IMHO the insect exterminator would be making akusala. I would never advise him to stop his job - heaven forbid-in fact please make him the pre-eminent insect exterminator in the country. It seems to me that this continues an unresolved issue about conventional activities. Ken H. is correctly following his very strict understanding that paramatha dhammas and kusala and akusala have *nothing* to do with conventional activities and events as we experience them in everyday life. *Nothing,* because there is no relation between what are pure concepts, such as killing an insect, performing an abortion, or finding the mind connected to the brain, and actual paramatha dhammas, which are merely kusala or akusala dhammas that arise in a single individual moment. Rob K. holds a view which accords more directly with the statements in the suttas, but which does not have this severe view of the separation of conventional life and paramatha dhammas. In his view, doing conventional activities that take life or go against other prohibitions of the Dhamma are akusala and should not be carried out. There are really only paramatha dhammas in reality, but conventional activities partake of those dhammas, reflect those dhammas, and are also kusala or akusala. Rob K., I hope I am not speaking incorrectly of your view. This appears to be a split in understanding between those who accept the prohibitions in everyday life, and those who don't think everyday activities have anything to do with the Dhamma at all, or can be kusala or akusala at all. I agree with what I think is Rob K.'s view. It does not make sense to me to say you can be a Buddhist simply by understanding dhammas, without any regard to whether you are killing beings or not, drinking, engaging in wrong livelihood, wrong speech and action, etc. in everyday life. Maybe this issue could be raised with K. Sujin? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125086 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Audio 2012 "Do you really know breath?" epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Dieter. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > This is one of those rare cases where I think the definition of the rupa is much more complicated than understanding what the nama is. > > D: I think the main points you mention are becoming obvious when you practise anapanasati ( Wiki provides good sources to dig) and certainly there are many references in the Canon and commentaries to search for. Thanks, Dieter - I appreciate the references and the encouragement. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125087 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Problems in life. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E, Op 19-jun-2012, om 19:51 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I agree with what I think is Rob K.'s view. It does not make sense > to me to say you can be a Buddhist simply by understanding dhammas, > without any regard to whether you are killing beings or not, > drinking, engaging in wrong livelihood, wrong speech and action, > etc. in everyday life. ------ N: Awareness and right understanding of whatever dhamma arises lead to more siila, higher siila, in action, speech and thought. No conflict between conventional actions and understanding of realities. ----- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125088 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:40 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah and Rob K, --- <. . .> > S: I'll let Ken explain his own meaning. --- KH: Maybe I should have made it clearer to Robert; it's the Religious Right fanatics, who oppose a woman's right to choose, that make abortion a sensitive topic for me. I am likely to say something regrettable about them. Otherwise, I have no qualms about it. I think a doctor who is required to perform abortions is in the same boat as the blind monk (in the suttas) who walked on caterpillars. Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. The monk was not blamed because he had right understanding. He knew in ultimate reality there were no caterpillars, no monks, and no physical activities. There were only dhammas, rising and falling by conditions, beyond anyone's control. In explanations of satipatthana it is always wrong view or right view that is blamed or praised, it is never a permanent, controlling, being. Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125089 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:48 am Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi again Lukas I want to consider more what I write, but about my addictions as well. We are brothers in addiction. Of course all beings in the sense realm are addicted (or infatuated) in a way to sense objects but for some of us the accumulated addictions are stronger. I wrote: "There will be abstinence or not. I told my drug addict cousin that his fate was out of my hands, and of course that is true for you too but to you who understands Dhamma I can also say your fate is out *your* hands! I'm quite optimistic about you, though, much more than I was about him. You have sensitivity to true Dhamma." Ph: How do yoy feel about the expression "out of your hands?". Some people will say it sounds fatalustic but I don't see it that way. In my case, I will talk about my addiction to alcohol. Recently I am less inrerested in the religious adpects of Dhamma, not intetested in monks and their precepts, or even in householder precepts. Why did this hapoen? A year ago or so I was so adamant about the importance of keeping the precepts. Now if there are conditions for compassion towards an insect and recollection of the danger of killing I don't kill the insect, if there aren't such conditions, the insect dies. For now it is usually noy-killing, but who knows if the trend towards less strict following of the precepts will continue. And alcohol. I had a drink two days in a row last week, and enjoyed it? Where is this leading? Why are there not conditions for believing tgat having a drink is very harmful? A hundred people could write a hundred posts each about the danger of alcohol, or lying or illicit sex, or whatever other akusala kamma patha (alcohol/intoxicantsisn't, as we know) but woyld tgey have an impact? Maybe yes, maybr no. The defilements are strong, but the words of our Dhamma friends and of course tge Buddha are strong too. In the case of opiates, the defilent is VERY strong, I was always a regulsr but controllled drinker, I dislike hangovers so never have more than one drink. ( That is the defilement speaking, see?) So for me and for yoy, how the conditioning forces move us to abstain or not. The conditioning force that is the decision "I will not drink when I meet my bad friends" us indeed a conditioning force as weak, but since it is rooted in self, how strong can it be? But it is in some way a force to abstain, so as long as we remember it is not very strong, the moments of resolving "I will not drink" can be appreciated for what they are, weak friends that push us weakly in the right direction. The understanding that understands those weak friends for what they are ( self seeking control) is already stronger and of course the understanding that arises in an effective but unpredictable and uncontrollable way(anatta) to remind us in a timely way why it would be foolish and harmful to drink is an even stronger friend, and the even deeper understanding at the kevel of satipatthana that is aware with detachment and understanding of arisen sense door objects is even more powerful, though it so very rare for us. So there are many conditioning forces that are our friends, including the words of friends like A Sujin. That's why I feel optimistic about you, because I know you are in tune with various aspects of the friendship of kusala forces, and have the rare wisdom to understand that "satipatthana meditation" like taught by Goenka is a false friend. (I still belueve a kind of yoga where you can find healthy pleasure in @chi" or "ki", the non-physical(?) energy fields that run in the body is a helpful support. For example, one reason I don't drink is that it interferes with the pleadure I get from the ki/chi/"light"/"energy" I experience when I "meditate"/do breath yoga.) It is also unpredictable and uncontollable whether you will listen to the voice of tge defilement that says "only 1% of addicts survive, what use is it to get professional treatment?" You need professional treatment together with the support of Dhamma! Great combination. And stop asking people in this group for advice about where to get treatment, that's just a silly game the deliements play, you are not stupid, you know how to use the internet to look for treatment in your country or elsewhere in Europe, you can use tge ibternet to hear from people who gave tried different treatments, "word of mouth" is the expression we use for that. Anyways, how do you feel about the idea "out of your hands?" Does it sound right to you? (That question is for Lukas, not you Rob E - though I know your own addiction - posting at DSG and elsewhere I am sure- has you itching to jump in. Thanks.) Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125090 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:59 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear ken Thanks so much for making things clearer. Needless to say I think you have it wrong but it's much better that We understand each other. Soo I think that blind monk had no intention to kill at all, just like us if we accidendlylt step on an ant. Right understanding should lead to less deliberate killing I think. robert Ps. Dont worry about insulting the religious right, we are all adults here, a bit of strong languGe wont make us blush. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Sarah and Rob K, > > --- > <. . .> > > S: I'll let Ken explain his own meaning. > --- > > KH: Maybe I should have made it clearer to Robert; it's the Religious Right fanatics, who oppose a woman's right to choose, that make abortion a sensitive topic for me. I am likely to say something regrettable about them. Otherwise, I have no qualms about it. > > I think a doctor who is required to perform abortions is in the same boat as the blind monk (in the suttas) who walked on caterpillars. > > Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. > > The monk was not blamed because he had right understanding. He knew in ultimate reality there were no caterpillars, no monks, and no physical activities. There were only dhammas, rising and falling by conditions, beyond anyone's control. > > In explanations of satipatthana it is always wrong view or right view that is blamed or praised, it is never a permanent, controlling, being. > > Ken H > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125091 From: "azita" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:42 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. gazita2002 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hallo Sarah, > Dear Nina, Azita & all, > > >________________________________ > > From: Nina van Gorkom > > >I was considering the way Kh Sujin answers people's requests for > >advice. Ken, I also thought of you, re abortion Rob K mentioned the > >other day, and your reaction that this is a highly sensitive issue. I > >would like you to be happy about the Dhamma. Kh Sujin would never > >judge anybody about such issues. It is such a heavy decision and > >mostly it would not be taken lightly by the persons concerned. Rob K > >quoted an example of a monk giving advice about abortion, but that is > >a different matter. Monks are supposed to live like arahats, they > >cannot take any life or drink. They have to follow the rules of the > >Vinaya. > ... > S: Yes, I was going to mention in that context that the Parajika offense is for the monk, the lay-person. > > Azita, do you remember, a long time ago, you brought up this sensitive topic in the context of your work in a hospital theatre as a nurse. I may be wrong, but as I recall, sometimes you had to assist in such operations. K.Sujin's response, from my memory, was that these are all stories about situations and that then, like now, there are so many different dhammas and awareness can be aware anytime. She didn't say "change your job" or "say you can't do that" or anything else. It was just ordinary, daily life - develop understanding. azita: I remember talking about this situation but do not remember A.Sujins answer. I suspect there was no answer - as you say, develop understanding. I also do not know where or when the discussion took place. > As Nina said she always stresses that only a sotapanna will no longer take intoxicants, kill and so on. A man may be a monk for a long time following good Vinaya and then there may be conditions for all kinds of addictions to manifest if he disrobes or in another life-time if he is not a sotapanna yet. > > Azita, do you remember when the discussion was (Burma - beginning, end? India - which year?) and then maybe I can find it and transcribe it. > > Btw, Azita, how are your daughters and grand-children getting on? How's life in Cairns? Any chance of joining us in Bkk end Aug or next Jan? azita: will be back in Bkk end of Sept. Cant make it any sooner. Daughters and grandkids are jst fine. In fact, I consider my daughters to be fine young women which amazes me given my 'upside down' type of parenting!!! Jst yesterday my 5yr old grandson said to me, after I had a day with him while his mum and dad were at work, "we had a good day today didnt we, Nani" - had to agree with him, we did have fun. Its all jst a concept eh? No Nani, no grandson etc. patience, courage and good cheer, azita Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125092 From: "Sarah" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:30 am Subject: hcked e-mail dhammasanna Offline Offline Send Email Send Email My friend's e-mail and address book were hacked and has affected mine. I have changed my password bur don't open any attachments or links from me. Thanks, Sarah Jane Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125093 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:26 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 19-jun-2012, om 19:51 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > I agree with what I think is Rob K.'s view. It does not make sense > > to me to say you can be a Buddhist simply by understanding dhammas, > > without any regard to whether you are killing beings or not, > > drinking, engaging in wrong livelihood, wrong speech and action, > > etc. in everyday life. > ------ > N: Awareness and right understanding of whatever dhamma arises lead > to more siila, higher siila, in action, speech and thought. No > conflict between conventional actions and understanding of realities. Well, this makes sense to me - if there are kusala cittas arising, the cetana will lead to right action and to kusala action. That is very different than the idea that there is no relationship between kusala cittas and conventional actions. Obviously you cannot murder someone with kusala cittas arising at that time; I am not sure but I think Ken H. would say that murder does not exist since it is just a concept, and all that exists are the akusala cittas at that time. The rupas that arise of the 'murder' are real, I would say, not conceptual. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125094 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:38 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H, Sarah and Rob K. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Sarah and Rob K, > > --- > <. . .> > > S: I'll let Ken explain his own meaning. > --- > > KH: Maybe I should have made it clearer to Robert; it's the Religious Right fanatics, who oppose a woman's right to choose, that make abortion a sensitive topic for me. I am likely to say something regrettable about them. Otherwise, I have no qualms about it. I have very negative feelings about the religious right as well, and their extremely oppressive views. I also support a woman's right to choose whether to have an abortion or not, or other personal health and life decisions. Obviously that is not especially on-topic here, but I am extremely progressive/liberal in my political views. On the other hand, I disagree with you that there is no prohibition against conventional killing in Buddhism -- unless I misunderstand you. If I kill an insect because I choose to protect my child from a mosquito or whatever, I will live with the kamma, but I won't pretend that there isn't any kamma, and I don't agree that so-called conventional killing has no consequences for kamma. Re. abortion, I don't know the kammic bottom line on killing a developing organism that is part of oneself. I agree to some extent with those who draw a line between early abortions and later ones when the fetus is viable. There is a line somewhere when a fetus becomes a separate being, but you would probably consider all of that conceptual in absolute terms, and thus having no consequences for Buddhism in any case. I don't agree with that. I take the Buddha's prohibitions against certain activities literally, while, at the same time, understanding that there is a momentary level of direct truth that is the key to true understanding. I believe that both levels of the "two truths" are intact, not just one or the other. > I think a doctor who is required to perform abortions is in the same boat as the blind monk (in the suttas) who walked on caterpillars. > > Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. I'm not sure if you can draw that conclusion. The fact that the monk was blind has something to do with the story, and it is his blindness that made it impossible for him to navigate without killing the caterpillars. There is usually a practical understanding in Buddhism that there are certain extreme conditions that cannot be met. One can drink alcohol as part of a medicinal potion, but not for recreation. One can't kill intentionally but one can be forgiven for killing when it is unavoidable. Could the monk live without walking anywhere? What was the alternative? In Jainism those who are orthodox wear a net over their face so they won't accidentally inhale small insects and kill them. Buddhism rejects this kind of extreme. > The monk was not blamed because he had right understanding. He knew in ultimate reality there were no caterpillars, no monks, and no physical activities. There were only dhammas, rising and falling by conditions, beyond anyone's control. If this explanation was true, then you would be asserting that someone with right view can kill another person without any blame or kamma. I don't believe this is the case. What is good for the caterpillar is good for any being. It's just a matter of degree. > In explanations of satipatthana it is always wrong view or right view that is blamed or praised, it is never a permanent, controlling, being. And yet definite conventional actions are praised and blamed by the Buddha, and I believe that this aspect of Dhamma is meant to be taken seriously, as I believe does Rob K. I think you are wrong on this one. There is no controlling person, but actions still have consequences. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125095 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:15 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 2, 7. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Different realities should be known one at a time. What is heard is only sound, or audible object. When sound appears, it should be understood as it is: only sound, a kind of rúpa. Sound is only sound, there is no drum, no trompet in the sound. Sound may be sweet or harsh, but paying attention to its quality or defining it is not hearing but it is another moment of consciousness. When audible object appears we should not imagine it to be a neutral sound, sounds have different qualities. But at the moment of just hearing we do not pay attention to its particular quality. Gradually paññå will know precisely what object appears at a particular moment. At first we know in theory that thinking about sound is not the same as hearing and we believe that we have understood. But we can find out that, instead of the direct understanding of the characteristics of realities appearing one at a time, we are merely thinking of them and that we take thinking for awareness. Nåma and rúpa are not just words, they are realities that can be directly known when they appear. Through mindfulness of different characteristics we can prove that the Middle Way leads to detachment from the concept of self and eventually from all realities. There is no self who could try to be detached, it is paññå that brings about detachment. It is a blessing that the Buddha accumulated renunciation which reached its culmination at the moment he attained Buddhahood. When he realized all phenomena as they are there was complete detachment from them. From then on he taught the Middle Way. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125096 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:42 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: >There is no controlling person, but actions still have consequences. ... S: Yes, an intention to harm and act of harming others has consequences. No doubt. It is understanding now that can know what kind of cittas are arising. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125097 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:05 pm Subject: Is the Dhamma in the books.....or now? sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, Here's another extract from the discussing at KK in 2011 that is relevant to many of our discussions. **** Maeve was saying that from the previous discussion, it seems that it's necessary to know what is in the book. KS: If I ask about whether it's in the book or now, what is better? Which book, which page, which line? Or now it's appearing? Didn't the Buddha know about realities right now? So it's the same when one knows the reality right now is what he experienced and became enlightened about. Phil asked a question about concepts about realities. KS: We don't mind what page, what line and what book at all. It must be there in many, many places. If that person just wants to know if it's in the book, does he really want to understand reality right now and what is true is in the book - the truth of reality. Maeve: It seems sometimes the understanding in the book is before the understanding right now. KS: Like the words come first before there can be understanding of seeing right now. That's why the Buddha taught and he had to use words to represent realities. M: So sometimes the words can condition understanding, but not always? KS: Not always. Depending on the listener's accumulations. M: So the question "is it from the book?" goes back to that idea of truthfulness about the level of understanding that is arising at this moment? KS: Many people quote books - no understanding. M: I mean truthfulness about one's.... KS: The word is truthfulness, but depending on the one who reads with or without understanding. Otherwise there will not be meditation centers if there is understanding. They study a lot, but they don't understand reality right now - that's why there are meditation centers. They don't understand now that reality is conditioned to arise and pass away instantly. If there is no understanding of reality right now, it's impossible to know the arising and passing away of anything. Jon: They don't understand that patipatti means the understanding of the presently arisen dhamma. KS: Because patipatti is not "to do", not "to go" to any place. It's the moment of understanding the characteristic of a reality. The intellectual understanding is enough to condition that moment not to turn away from the reality which appears. Sacca ~naana is the understanding which is confident in reality right now as the object of understanding only. What else apart this reality can be the object of understanding? And only that which appears.... ***** Metta Sarah ====== [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125098 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:27 pm Subject: Broken heart? 10. A Happy Ending sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas & all, Continuing with the extracts from the old article on Attachment to another person. ***** I then said that one can’t help thinking of happiness and security in terms of material conditions. Sujin: "What’s more important in life: material conditions or right understanding? Right understanding is so difficult to grow. So people have their own way of living while developing right understanding. Depending on the degree of right understanding one will see the danger of putting happiness or security in terms of anything else." I mentioned a mutual friend who was getting married soon. Sujin: "It’s her way. One has to take responsibility for one’s own life. Who can take responsibility for the other? It is conditioned already. Stop the growth of strong attachment with mettaa. When it’s kusala, it’s so different from wanting the other to be so attached and being so attached. It’s kindness to others if we don’t cling to them or encourage them to be attached to us." HAPPY ENDING? I said that it did make some sense that if we are genuinely concerned about the other person we will not want to encourage the attachment, knowing how much it hurts. I asked about when we are the object of attachment. Sujin: "When one knows one is the object of attachment, one cannot stop being the object of attachment for the others. There are ways with kusala citta to stop the other’s attachment growing. When one is sincere with kusala citta, the other will understand, not wanting to increase the attachment. The other can see it is sincere, kusala citta. It’s less dangerous than both having akusala citta. One day they will realise what is kusala citta... THE HAPPY ENDING." I said that living apart without any attachment wouldn’t sell at the movies as the happy ending! Sujin: "But we can know it’s a happy ending. One must be very sincere, secure, steadfast, resolute and decisive." ***** Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125099 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Audio 2012 "Do you really know breath?" nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E, Op 19-jun-2012, om 19:35 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > If the breath rupa is conditioned by citta, does that mean that it > only arises when there is awareness for that citta? Or does any > citta give rise to the breath rupa? > ------- N: Every citta from birth to death, otherwise we would die. an exception is the attainment of higher stages of jhaana when breathing stops. ------ > R: Is there any way to describe what the characteristic of that > rupa is? For instance, hardness is obvious, and so is 'visible > object' at least to an extent. But it is hard to understand what > the special breath rupa is like without any description of its > physical characteristic. > ------ N: We are speaking about bhaavanaa, mental development. It has to be known whether the citta is kusala or akusala. When akusala citta rooted in lobha conditions breath, this is coarse. When kusala citta conditions it it is more subtle. Still, it is hard to describe its characteristic. Only when sati and pa~n~naa arises when it appears it can be known. It depends on a person's accumulations whether breath appears or not. When we were discussing breath with Kh Sujin she would ask us: does it appear? This is the only way to know. It will not appear to everybody. A most difficult subject. When reading to Lodewijk I just came across an interesting passage: Mahaa-niddesa, Sutta on old Age (not in English), it is said that life is dependent on in-breath and out-breath, on the four Great elements, on heat, on the food we eat, on vi~n~naa.na, consciousness. It is said that avijjaa (ignorance), sa"nkhaara (formations, kusala and akusala cetanaa), tanhaa (craving), upadaana (clinging) and bhaava (kamma-process becoming) condition in- and out-breathing. N: Our life goes on in accordance with the Dependent Origination. ----------- > > > N: Another matter is: can one select the object of awareness that > is the > > present reality presenting itself? > > R: I know the answer to that is that one cannot select the object > of awareness that is presented at any moment. Still, there are > those monks who were skilled in following breath and developing > jhana, and I guess for them they would have many such occasions. > ------ N: Yes, when there are accumulations for this subject of bhaavanaa, certainly. ----- > R: For myself, of course there is no skill in that way, but if the > breath rupa arises, it is just good to know how it would be > identified, as opposed to the passage of air and other rupas that > are not conditioned by citta. Any passage that describes the > characteristic of this rupa would 'close the loop' for me on this. :-) > ------ N: Generally there are akusala cittas rooted in lobha more often than kusala cittas. Bhaavanaa is not easy at all. ------ Nina. Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125100 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Pilgrimage in India, Ch 2, 6. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Op 19-jun-2012, om 17:02 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I remember hearing, or reading, "we *like* to recognize a tree." > There is the simile of the bird landing on the branch and so so so > soon its shadow to get at how quickly a sense door process is > followed by a mind door process. Is there a smile that captures how > quickly there is attachment? Of course I remember that the first > javana cittas are rooted in lobha.. -------- N: I can only think of the sutta on lobha as teacher one always follows, and lobha as pupil or co-resident, who is always there. And indeed, it follows us like a shadow. ----- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125101 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E, Op 20-jun-2012, om 8:26 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > N: Awareness and right understanding of whatever dhamma arises lead > > to more siila, higher siila, in action, speech and thought. No > > conflict between conventional actions and understanding of > realities. > > Well, this makes sense to me - if there are kusala cittas arising, > the cetana will lead to right action and to kusala action. That is > very different than the idea that there is no relationship between > kusala cittas and conventional actions. ------- N: I remember that in another post you asked for a sutta explanation of conventional truth and ultimate truth. I cannot trace exactly your post now. The sutta about the two kinds of truths recently quoted by Rob K comes to my mind. I think of the sutta about the world: there are six worlds. I find it enough that the suttas point to the understanding of the reality now. There is a sutta about a dream: one sees a lake etc. but on waking it is all gone, does not exist. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125102 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:21 pm Subject: Doubt after each moment ( was[dsg] Re: Q. Pilgrimage in India, Ch 2, 6. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina Thanks for the below. Today I heard the very good talk in which Lodewijk with typical modesty says that after all these years he does not understand sati, what is sati etc. At one point someone says that there can be sati, but then doubt, one doubts what one has experienced. Then A. Sujin says there is doubt after each monent, after each door. What did she mean? Is there doubt with every akusala citta, since there is subtle akusala of subtle attachment with every object, so doubt too? Doubt feels like something that needs a topic to think about, not something that arises after each monent of experiencing a sense door object. I don't understand doubt, or saddha either, in Dhamma terms, I understand only the conventional meanings. For me doybt is, for example, doubting there is a result of bad deeds, that kind of big dangerpus doubt. Thanks, only when you have time. Phil ---Is there a smile that captures how > > quickly there is attachment? Of course I remember that the first > > javana cittas are rooted in lobha.. > -------- > N: I can only think of the sutta on lobha as teacher one always > follows, and lobha as pupil or co-resident, who is always there. And > indeed, it follows us like a shadow. > ----- > Nina. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125103 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:53 pm Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi all, Continuing Dhs maatika triplet 7: Pali: (ka) piitisahagataa dhammaa. (kha) sukhasahagataa dhammaa. (ga) upekkhaasahagataa dhammaa. Khine: (i) Dhamma which arise together with Delightful Satisfaction (ii) Dhamma which arise together with happiness (iii) Dhamma which arise together with Equanimity pt: Do I understand correctly that: (i) is referring to piiti cetasika? (ii) is referring to vedana cetasika? (iii) is referring to vedana cetasika? Or is it tatramajjhattata cetasika? Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (58) #125104 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear pt, Op 20-jun-2012, om 12:53 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > > Continuing Dhs maatika triplet 7: > > Pali: > (ka) piitisahagataa dhammaa. > (kha) sukhasahagataa dhammaa. > (ga) upekkhaasahagataa dhammaa. > > Khine: > (i) Dhamma which arise together with Delightful Satisfaction > (ii) Dhamma which arise together with happiness > (iii) Dhamma which arise together with Equanimity > > pt: Do I understand correctly that: > (i) is referring to piiti cetasika? > ------ N: yes, it can be translated as rapture, enthusiasm, zest. ------ > (ii) is referring to vedana cetasika? > (iii) is referring to vedana cetasika? Or is it tatramajjhattata > cetasika? > ------- N: to happy feeling and to indifferent feeling. In order to understand this triplet, we need Expositor I, p. 56. N: In order to understand this, we need to go back to the previous triplet: dhamma with applied thinking, with sustained thinking and dhamma with neither. This refers to stages of jhaana. In the fivefold system jhaana: in the second stage vitakka, applied thinking, is abandoned, in the third stage, sustained thinking (vicaara), and in the third stage both have been abandoned. Now back to the piiti triplet: with the cittas of the sense sphere (kaamaavacara cittas) piiti and sukha always go together. This is not so with the jhaanacittas: at the fourth stage piiti is abandoned, but there is still sukha, happy feeling. At the fifth stage also sukha is abandoned but instead there is indifferent feeling, upekkhaa. This shows that the higher stages of jhaana become progressively more and more subtle. ----- Nina. Reply | Messages in this Topic (58) #125105 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Nina (and Robert) - In a message dated 6/20/2012 5:56:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Rob E, Op 20-jun-2012, om 8:26 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > N: Awareness and right understanding of whatever dhamma arises lead > > to more siila, higher siila, in action, speech and thought. No > > conflict between conventional actions and understanding of > realities. > > Well, this makes sense to me - if there are kusala cittas arising, > the cetana will lead to right action and to kusala action. That is > very different than the idea that there is no relationship between > kusala cittas and conventional actions. ------- N: I remember that in another post you asked for a sutta explanation of conventional truth and ultimate truth. I cannot trace exactly your post now. The sutta about the two kinds of truths recently quoted by Rob K comes to my mind. I think of the sutta about the world: there are six worlds. I find it enough that the suttas point to the understanding of the reality now. There is a sutta about a dream: one sees a lake etc. but on waking it is all gone, does not exist. ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, I think it may be the Potaliya Sutta that you have in mind. ------------------------------------------------------- ------- Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard Like a Dream /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ (From the Potaliya Sutta) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125106 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:02 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob K, Ken H., and Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > ...I think that blind monk had no intention to kill at all, just like us if we accidentally step on an ant. Right understanding should lead to less deliberate killing I think. > robert I think this is the main point in terms of a connection between dhammas and actions 'in the world,' [or the rupas involved,] that when there is kusala there will also be right action, and as you say above, when there is right understanding, there will be a consequent 'less deliberate killing.' So I also think Ken H. is wrong when he says that the monk knew he would be killing the insects underfoot and therefore he was killing them intentionally by walking, but because there was right understanding the killing didn't matter, and had no akusala. This idea that if you have right understanding it is okay to kill or do other bad things is very strange in my view. It contradicts the meaning of kusala, which is not only wholesome but moral as well. I think the view that there 'will be less intentional killing' when there is right understanding is correct, and I believe that Nina also asserted this in her last post when she said 'there is no contradiction' between paramatha dhammas and conventional actions. You don't see kusala dhammas accompanying acts of lying or violence. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125107 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Audio 2012 "Do you really know breath?" epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: We are speaking about bhaavanaa, mental development. It has to be > known whether the citta is kusala or akusala. When akusala citta > rooted in lobha conditions breath, this is coarse. When kusala citta > conditions it it is more subtle. ... > When reading to Lodewijk I just came across an interesting passage: > Mahaa-niddesa, Sutta on old Age (not in English), it is said that > life is dependent on in-breath and out-breath, on the four Great > elements, on heat, on the food we eat, on vi~n~naa.na, consciousness. > It is said that avijjaa (ignorance), sa"nkhaara (formations, kusala > and akusala cetanaa), tanhaa (craving), upadaana (clinging) and > bhaava (kamma-process becoming) condition in- and out-breathing. > N: Our life goes on in accordance with the Dependent Origination. > ----------- This is a very interesting passage - thanks for quoting that. I can see that many factors condition the breathing, and so many breaths will arise with ignorance, formations, craving, clinging and kamma as conditioning factors, so one can see how many akusala influences there are on the breath in normal life. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125108 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Like a Dream > /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, > delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on > awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the > noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a > dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this with > right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming > from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity > coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging > for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ > (From the Potaliya Sutta) Very nice - thanks, Howard. Strangely this is reminiscent of the idea of maya in Hinduism. Okay, I'll back up and duck again. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125109 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 20-jun-2012, om 8:26 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > N: Awareness and right understanding of whatever dhamma arises lead > > > to more siila, higher siila, in action, speech and thought. No > > > conflict between conventional actions and understanding of > > realities. > > > > Well, this makes sense to me - if there are kusala cittas arising, > > the cetana will lead to right action and to kusala action. That is > > very different than the idea that there is no relationship between > > kusala cittas and conventional actions. > ------- > N: I remember that in another post you asked for a sutta explanation > of conventional truth and ultimate truth. I cannot trace exactly your > post now. The sutta about the two kinds of truths recently quoted by > Rob K comes to my mind. > I think of the sutta about the world: there are six worlds. I find it > enough that the suttas point to the understanding of the reality now. > There is a sutta about a dream: one sees a lake etc. but on waking it > is all gone, does not exist. It may be that the way we see things does not exist and is like a dream, but the underlying kusala and akusala cittas are still rising and falling away and causing other kinds of cittas to arise. Some of these are rupas and can be pleasant or unpleasant. It just seems like the experience takes place even if our concepts are wrong, and better not to 'experience' murder because of the akusala cittas behind it. Something like that. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125110 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/20/2012 4:46:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > > Like a Dream > /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, > delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on > awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the > noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a > dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this with > right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming > from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity > coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging > for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ > (From the Potaliya Sutta) Very nice - thanks, Howard. Strangely this is reminiscent of the idea of maya in Hinduism. Okay, I'll back up and duck again. ----------------------------------------------------------- HCW: LOL! Look out!!! [ : > / My perspective: When there is an actual truth, it shouldn't be surprising, I think, that different traditions, though varying in depth, correctness of insight, and manner of description, should nonetheless have glimpses of that truth. ------------------------------------------------------------ Best, Rob E. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125111 From: Vince Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is the Dhamma in the books.....or now? cerovzt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah you wrote: > KS: Because patipatti is not "to do", not "to go" to any place. It's the moment of > understanding the characteristic of a reality. The intellectual understanding is enough > to condition that moment not to turn away from the reality which appears. Sacca ~naana > is the understanding which is confident in reality right now as the object of > understanding only. What else apart this reality can be the object of understanding? And > only that which appears.... I believe this is important. I remember a conversation with Nina about the exact meaning of "understanding" in Thai language to clarify what Sujin can means. Nina wrote me: > N: In Thai: kaw cai: enters the heart. I like this . Kh Sujin would > explain that there are many levels of understanding: intellectual > understanding and this can condition direct understanding. One listen > with understanding and in this way it can develop. in Western languages we lack of a similar notion to mean a progressive flow of knowledge until the end. While in Thai it comes from "enter to the heart" (to the deepest), the etymology of the word "understanding" in western languages is quite different. I have read that in latinized languages it comes from "intendere" which means "to tend" in the sense of managing. In English or German it comes from "thunnuz" which also means "to tend" but in the sense of thickness. It seems we grow lacking of some word able to mean that some stream of knowledge can go from the surface until the deepest. best Vince, Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125112 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:56 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi rob let's hope Kenh expands more so we can all learn more about these ideas. robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Rob K, Ken H., and Nina. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > ...I think that blind monk had no intention to kill at all, just like us if we accidentally step on an ant. Right understanding should lead to less deliberate killing I think. > > > robert > > I think this is the main point in terms of a connection between dhammas and actions 'in the world,' [or the rupas involved,] that when there is kusala there will also be right action, and as you say above, when there is right understanding, there will be a consequent 'less deliberate killing.' > > So I also think Ken H. is wrong when he says that the monk knew he Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125113 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:32 pm Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina, > N: In order to understand this, we need to go back to the previous > triplet: dhamma with applied thinking, with sustained thinking and > dhamma with neither. This refers to stages of jhaana. Ah yes, it makes sense when referenced to jhana. Thanks. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (58) #125114 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > ... (From the Potaliya Sutta) > > Very nice - thanks, Howard. Strangely this is reminiscent of the idea of > maya in Hinduism. Okay, I'll back up and duck again. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > LOL! Look out!!! [ : > / > My perspective: When there is an actual truth, it shouldn't be > surprising, I think, that different traditions, though varying in depth, > correctness of insight, and manner of description, should nonetheless have glimpses > of that truth. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Well I agree with you! None the less, I will stay low behind the bushes... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125115 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:27 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob K. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Hi rob > let's hope Kenh expands more so we can all learn more about these ideas. > robert Yeah, it's kind of an important area of inquiry - I think that looking into it and exchanging these views is good. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Rob K, Ken H., and Nina. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > > ...I think that blind monk had no intention to kill at all, just like us if we accidentally step on an ant. Right understanding should lead to less deliberate killing I think. > > > > > robert > > > > I think this is the main point in terms of a connection between dhammas and actions 'in the world,' [or the rupas involved,] that when there is kusala there will also be right action, and as you say above, when there is right understanding, there will be a consequent 'less deliberate killing.' ------------ Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125116 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, Thank you, I was wondering about this already for a long time. Nina. Op 20-jun-2012, om 16:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > HCW: > Yes, I think it may be the Potaliya Sutta that you have in mind. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125117 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is the Dhamma in the books.....or now? nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Vince, Another expression was: it has to go into the very bones, and I find this also good. More important than words is understanding of the reality right now. THis has to go into the very bones. Nina. Op 21-jun-2012, om 1:06 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > It seems we grow lacking of some word able to mean that some stream > of knowledge can go > from the surface until the deepest. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125118 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E, Op 21-jun-2012, om 7:27 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Yeah, it's kind of an important area of inquiry - I think that > looking into it and exchanging these views is good. ----- N: Yes. I think that understanding and awareness of paramattha dhammas must never be an excuse to engage in akusala, thinking, well it is only a conditioned naama. I am sure Ken H does not mean this. Words can be easily misunderstood. I would say, on the contrary: through right understanding one sees more the danger of all kinds of akusala, even the subtle ones. ---------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125119 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:25 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 3, 1. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Chapter 3. The long Way. Out of compassion the Buddha developed during his innumerable lives as a Bodhisatta the wisdom that would enable him to become a Sammåsambuddha. A Sammåsambuddha is a person who discovers the truth without the help of a teacher and who is able to teach the truth to others as well. We read in the commentary to the “Khuddakapåtha”, the “Paramatthajotikå”, on the “Three Refuges”, 14: “... and this is said ‘Buddha’: in what sense buddha? He is the discoverer (bujjhitå) of the Truths, thus he is enlightened (buddha). He is the enlightener (bodhetå) of the generation, thus he is enlightened. He is enlightened by omniscience, enlightened by seeing all, enlightened without being led by others....” He could not have become a Sammåsambuddha without the right conditions for this. In his many lives as a Bodhisatta he developed sati and paññå because he had to accumulate paññå to a greater extent than anybody else. When the Bodhisatta at the feet of the Buddha Dípankara made his resolve to become a future Buddha he must have listened to the teaching of Dhamma and developed sati. He listened also to the teachings of other Buddhas who came after the Buddha Dípankara. In the “Sublime Story” (Mahåpadåna Sutta, Dialogues of the Buddha II, 14) we read that the Buddha spoke about six previous Buddhas, about their families, their span of life and the pair of disciples who were their attendants. In the “Discourse on Ghatikåra”(Middle Length Sayings II, 81) we read that the Buddha Kassapa taught him Dhamma when he, in his life as Jotipåla, visited him together with his friend the potter Ghatikåra. The Bodhisatta was in that life ordained as a monk and he must have developed mindfulness of nåma and rúpa. He did not attain enlightenment then, but he developed sati and paññå for many more lives, out of compassion for other beings and also for us. His enlightenment is the condition for us to be able to develop right understanding at this moment. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125120 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:01 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert E and Robert K, I am away again for a few days but this time with a new laptop, so there should be no excuses. But a longish reply to Robert E has just gone west due to my technological incompetence. I am in no mood to type it again. I will move on to this next message instead. ------- > RK: Hi rob > let's hope Kenh expands more so we can all learn more about these ideas. ------- KH: Sarcasm will not help my mood. :-) ------------- >> RK: ...I think that blind monk had no intention to kill at all, just like us if we accidentally step on an ant. ------------- KH: Of course the monk had no intention to kill, but so what? There must be more to the story than that. I can accidentally step on insects every day and no one will write a sutta about me. The monk had right understanding of nama and rupa. That's why we read about him in the suttas. When there is right understanding of nama and rupa there is no thought whatsoever of a sentient being performing kusala or akusala. That would be out of the question. And that's what all this ongoing disagreement has been about. Even though Nina and Sarah have said some things about the heart (for example) and about sense rupas being located all over the body, I have no argument with them. I believe they are saying those things just to give a better understanding of the dhammas we are studying. My argument is with Robert K for his insistence that people - not just dhammas) - are reborn, or that people - not just dhammas – perform kusala and akusala actions. Or that concepts are made of lots and lots of kalapas of rupas (as if kalapas were molecules and rupas were atoms!). Or maybe it is Robert K who has an argument with me – for taking anatta too seriously. ----------- <. . .> >>>RK: Right understanding should lead to less deliberate killing I think. > >RE: I think this is the main point in terms of a connection between dhammas and actions 'in the world,' [or the rupas involved,] that when there is kusala there will also be right action, and as you say above, when there is right understanding, there will be a consequent 'less deliberate killing.' ------------ KH: When there is right understanding there is no one who is killed and no one who kills. That's what the monk knew. And so of course we will say the conventionally known monk did not purposely tread on caterpillars. (Even though it seems obvious he should have known that was going to happen!) There really was no sentient (permanent) monk. That was just a conventional designation for the five khandhas. (In this case five khandhas totally devoid of akusala kamma.) So the conventional story has to be about an innocent monk doesn't it? Better still an innocent monk who seemed to all but the most enlightened (including some of his fellow monks) to be guilty. Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125121 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:15 pm Subject: Broken heart? 10. Oily Soot sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas & friends, (This will be the last extract for a few days - we're traveling to Australia tomorrow). OILY SOOT? In Sri Lanka, earlier this year [1979], Khun Sujin also referred to "the game that ta.nhaa always wins." Because of a lack of understanding we follow the game of ta.nhaa wherever it goes. With awareness, she stressed, "one lets go of desire for other objects. Even a little attachment hinders the progress of right understanding." Attachment is a conditioned reality with stories proliferating all the time on account of such feelings. "The growth of vipassanaa must begin with detachment and go the way of detachment because attachment is very subtle and always wins when there is no understanding." We read about Lady Sumanaa, the youngest daughter of Anaathapi.n.dika (Commentary to Dhammapada, 'Buddhist Legends', Book I, 13, translated by E.W. Burlingame, Harvard Oriental Series) who had reached the second stage of enlightenment. Yet still she died of grief because of her failure to obtain a husband, so we can understand how dangerous the attachment is. Although almost every object is an object of attachment when there is no development of understanding. Specific mention was repeatedly made in Sri Lanka of the danger of strong attachment for what is taken for another being. However, we should also understand these comments in the context of satipa.t.thaana. There are many other examples of followers of the Buddha who attained stages of enlightenment even though they were householders, often married with large families. At any time, there are realities which can be known. This should not stop us from seeing the danger of particular kinds of attachment, however, and a commentary note to the 'Kusala Muula' or 'The Three Roots of Action' (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes, 68, 'Those of Other Views', PTS), states that as lust has very deep roots in human nature, it is as hard to remove as oily soot, and a particular attachment might follow a person even through two or three lives. Lust is said to be less reprehensible than anger or hatred but harder to remove. In the sutta itself we read: "Malice is much to be blamed, but it is quick to change. Delusion is much to be blamed and it is slow to change. But, sirs, what is the reason, what is the cause why lust that has not arisen arises, or why lust that has arisen is liable to more-becoming and growth? " 'It is the feature of beauty (in a thing),' must be the reply. In him who gives not systematic attention to the feature of beauty, lust that has not arisen arises, and lust that has arisen is liable to more-becoming and growth. This, sirs, is the reason, this is the cause...." ***** Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125122 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:54 pm Subject: Re: The Complete English Translation of the A. N. by Bhikkhu Bodhi sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > S: Any group or community needs rules of behaviour (even DSG!). Why? Because we're not arahats. In the beginning the Sangha didn't need any rules, but as problems arose, rules were laid down. > > > > Now to your question. Just because in absolute terms there are only dhammas, paramattha dhammas, doesn't mean that we don't use concepts, or that we don't refer to 'conventional actions', to selves, people and things. It means that the path is just the understanding of the realities, no matter what community, what rules, what terms or ideas are used. > > > > This is why the path just depends on the right understanding at this moment, no matter one is a bhikkhu or lay-person, here or there, old or young and so on. > > > > Pls let me know if this still doesn't answer the question. ... >R: I think that it basically does answer the question. I guess my follow-up question, to make it a little clearer, is whether the rules of conventional behavior, such as those in the Vinaya, are part of the path, supporting of the path, or unrelated to the path at all. .... S: The path is just the development of satipatthana regardless of the lifestyle. As discussed, as understanding develops, "seeing the danger in the smallest faults", adhi sila, higher sila will also be developed - fewer and fewer conditions to break the precepts for lay-people or the Patimokkha rules for monks. There will be a better understanding of the danger of causing harm and bringing disrepute to the Sangha. One will understand the purpose of the rules and the monk's life is. There is no problem at all in talking in terms of conventional behavior or referring to conventional realities. The problem is when you (or others) assert that such conventional realities can *break down into a series of rupas* or something along those lines. A chariot never 'breaks down' into khandhas. I think that's one of the points that Ken and others have been stressing. ... >If they are unrelated to the path, but are just rules for monastic organization and conventionally getting along, then that is easy to reconcile. If they are part of the path or supportive of the path, then there is a relationship between conventional behavior and understanding of dhammas, and that is what I would like to clarify. ... S: The rules are for the harmony and well-being of the Sangha, to be followed whilst developing satipatthana. If we consider the precept of abstention from killing, we can consider whether there is any intention to harm now or not. If we see the danger in even small thoughts of harming when they arise along with an understanding of any conditioned realities appearing now, there will be less and less inclination to harm or deliberately kill even insects. Whatever we read in the Tipitaka, including the Vinaya, can be considered and reflected on at this moment. It all comes down to the cittas arising now, not just book study. Metta Sarah p.s there will be delays in all replies after the few I'm writing now. ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (35) #125123 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:03 pm Subject: Re: Broken heart? 10. Oily Soot szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, > We read about Lady Sumanaa, the youngest daughter > of Anaathapi.n.dika (Commentary to Dhammapada, 'Buddhist Legends', Book I, 13, > translated by E.W. Burlingame, Harvard Oriental Series) who had reached the > second stage of enlightenment. Yet still she died of grief because of her > failure to obtain a husband, so we can understand how dangerous the attachment > is. L: Yes, Sumana is good example. She was one of the 4 children of Anathapindika, other children were sotapanna, but she were so skillful that she could reach sakadagami. She was unhappy, looking of her two sisters that had so happy marriadge, and she started to gieve and have sorrow. She stop to eat even, so how strong grieve it must be? She died after some time. This is a good example, that we cannot ran away from accumulated tendencies. Even anagami cannot change. It must be so natural. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125124 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > D: you are right 'sense media' refers to the pairs of ayatana .. 5th in place . > When we are talking e.g. about vinnana khandha (3rd place) we speak of eye consciousness ,ear consciousness etc. > Citta , Cetasika (and Rupa) provide the' picture'.. . the sense media ,isn't it? ... S: Whatever we're talking about, it comes down to cittas, cetasikas and rupas. The ayatanas refer to the meeting of various cittas, cetasikas and rupas at this moment. For example, the 'miracle' of seeing cannot occur without the coming together of eye-sense, visible object, the seeing citta and associated cetasikas. .. > > > > S:For example, heat is a rupa. It shares all the characteristics of rupa with all other rupa khandha realities. Each one is different - it arises and falls away never to reappear. All day we cling to that reality, that khandha which has gone. We cling to nothing in effect. > Heat is also an ayatana - an outer ayatana or what I think you refer to as "sense media". > The ayatanas stress the coming together or meeting of realities. In order for heat rupa to be experienced, there has to be the "meeting" of body sense, heat, body consciousness, contact and other associated mental factors. No self, no being involved at all - just conditioned dhammas. The "miracle" of conditioned dhammas coming together at this moment. > So the characteristic of heat, the reality of heat is just heat whether we refer to it as a khandha, an ayatana or a dhatu. However, the Buddha used different ways of description and explanation because he knew that just one kind of description was not enough for most listeners to understand realities as anatta. > > D: I need to see that in practise , is the text below in line with your thinking? > Maha Satipatthana Sutta:[3] "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media? There is the case where he discerns the eye, he discerns forms, he discerns the fetter that arises dependent on both. He discerns how there is the arising of an unarisen fetter. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of a fetter once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of a fetter that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining sense media: ear, nose, tongue, body, & intellect.) .... S: Yes, there is the 'meeting' of the various dhammas. At moments of satipatthana, there is the awareness and understanding of one dhamma, one reality which appears, such as greed, seeing, visible object.....any reality. The 12 ayatanas (six pairs) include all dhammas. .... > D: Sarah, you sidestepped the next sentence : > "If not, what I suppose , to talk of arising and falling khandhas equally mean the dhammas which are grouped under them." > > In other words , if there the distinction between realities and concepts is only done within Abhidhamma and no such seperation in the Sutta Pitaka , > the sayings of the Sutta Pitaka can not be used to argue that khandha isn't a concept in Abhidhamma , can it ? ... S: As Nina said, both the Sutta Pitaka and Abhidhamma refer to dhammas which can be known now. Khandha in the suttas or the Abhidhamma is the same - it refers to any conditioned dhamma which arises and falls away. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125125 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:14 pm Subject: Re: Broken heart? 10. Oily Soot sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > This is a good example, that we cannot ran away from accumulated tendencies. Even anagami cannot change. It must be so natural. ... S: Yes....many people would like to change their characters or tendencies, but it's impossible. The tendency that is conditioned at this moment has been conditioned already. The only way is understanding. I thought all your comments on Practice in #125063 were excellent. I was going to write about some lovely discussions I had with Jessica and her friends at the beach and lunch on Sunday, but no time. One of the friends had some mental disturbances and has to take drugs for this. She'd become very distressed after her mother had died a few years ago and had been to meditation retreats where she was encouraged to 'observe' 'do metta meditation' and so on.... made things worse. She hears voices. I talked rather a lot about this moment and understanding thinking, letting go of the past and so on. When it's not seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or touching now, it's thinking - thinking about voices, thinking about observing, thinking about having different tendencies and so on. Jessica is keen to study and understand the Dhsg and Abhidhamma more. Again, all back to this moment. No time to add more! Metta Sarah p.s re your off-list note and 'broken heart' - just understand dhammas now and see the value of considering the other's welfare rather than your own. The citta is 'light' and 'calm' when it's kusala. The problems all come down to attachment - attachment to oneself. ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125126 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:19 pm Subject: Re: Broken heart? 7. The 'situation' - the story sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > I ment by this answer, that even there is sadness, or anger or whatever, this is exactly how it is. This is a Truth. ... S: And not just sadness or anger. Any conditioned dhamma - even seeing now, visible object now - is dukkha. This is the practice - understanding and being detached from whatever appears. Dukkha, the 1st NT is the arising and falling away of all conditioned dhammas. Just remembered, the other day with Jessica's friends, we talked a lot about living in dream worlds most the time. Just as what we dream about at night is not real, so now, the imagined voices, the ideas, the problems are just dreams. The friend had been told to 'control' herself. But all these dhammas are conditioned - habits, tendencies, sense experiences. She had been told to 'practice more', but the dhammas are anatta - they are for understanding, not for trying to control. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125127 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello dear friends! sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > I received a letter from his father. I had heard that he read out (at a memorial ceremony) a part of a poem I had written for his son, and when I opened the letter I assumed it would be full of tender recollection of his son and regret for their troubled relationship. Instead, the feeling was that it was a relief for him and his wife that their troub led son was gone and they wouldn't have to worry about him anymore. I was quite impressed by that. As the father wrote in the letter, "you never know." Nobody is locked into feelings, you never know how we or others will respond to tragedies, and other situations. The parents of a suicide are not necessarily doomed to grieve intensely, there can be relief instead, there is no telling, anatta. ... S: Yes, interesting. As he says "you never know". So nice that he wrote. Perhaps you'll see them in the summer to talk more. Someone close to me told me recently she was relieved, even glad, when her husband suddenly died many years ago after a difficult relationship. I'd had no idea and had been so concerned for her. We never know. Anatta, as you say. We imagine all sorts of things all the time, but can only ever know our own cittas at such times - always lost in stories about other people. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (20) #125128 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:27 pm Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas & Jessica, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: I also recommend you to read Dhatukatha. This is so good to study in daily life. See Atthasalini, four oceans. In the beginning discourse. > > Dhatukatha. Acharn Sujin mentioned about viriyakatha, that the talk (katha) on viriya can be a condition to have more effort, though to be aware. Dhatu katha, I found it so deep and so powerful when minds ponders over the realities, after short reminder of dhatu katha. > > All just elements. ... S: Maybe you can add more and give some examples from the text. Perhaps you can encourage Jessica to discuss her study projects more. As you say "all just elements". Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (19) #125129 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:44 pm Subject: Awareness and Thinking, no 3. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Kh Santi: How can we exert effort for satipatthaana? Kh S: When there are no conditions for satipatthaana it does not arise. More understanding is the condition for it. If it does not arise there is not yet enough understanding. Kh Santi: If for someone satipatthana often arises he has a lot of effort or energy, and if it does not often arise, there is not much effort for that person. Kh S: Does satipatthana arise because it is accumulated as sankhaarakkhandha( the khandha of formations, including sati, pa~n~naa and all wholesome qualities) or does it arise because of a self? At this moment of listening there are sati and pa~n~naa, and are these sankhaarakkhandha? Kh Santi: Also striving and intention are sankhaarakkhandha. Kh Sujin: The aim of the development of satipatthaana is detachment. The idea of wanting, of self, is very deeply rooted. In order to abandon the idea of self there must be pa~n~naa of the level of sacca ~naa.na. (N: Sacca ~naa.na is the understanding which is confident in reality right now as the object of understanding. As we have seen, there must be three rounds of understanding the noble Truths: sacca ~naa.na, understanding of what has to be known and what the Path is; kicca ~naa.na, understanding of the task, that is, satipa.t.thaana; kata ~naa.na: understanding of what has been realized, the realisation of the truth.) Kh S: It is necessary to understand the second noble Truth, the origin of dukkha that is lobha. If one takes striving for self one believes that “we” are striving. One does not see the Truth of the origin of dukkha which is lobha. How then could one abandon lobha? ******* Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (4) #125130 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:51 pm Subject: Re: Broken heart? 10. Oily Soot szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, Jessica, > S:One of the friends had some mental disturbances and has to take drugs for this. She'd become very distressed after her mother had died a few years ago and had been to meditation retreats where she was encouraged to 'observe' 'do metta meditation' and so on.... made things worse. L: Yes, I did the some few years ago. I wanted to observe, to decrease my misery. But I just only increased it. So many wrong ideas, so much wrong view accumulated. This really block all kinds of panna. And this is so harmful and so hard to eradicate later. When I am here I see people sitting and meditating, so much effort, closed eyes, streight posture and looking for what? This is painful. > She hears voices. I talked rather a lot about this moment and understanding thinking, letting go of the past and so on. L: That is good. At least some kind of misery involved. >S: When it's not seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or touching now, it's thinking - thinking about voices, thinking about observing, thinking about having different tendencies and so on. L: Many times a day, it's not like that, if not all the time. This all also must be natural. So I would say, know more on intellectual level, consider and study dhamma now and lead ur life. For me a lot of people told me, that if I am in love, no practice anymore, no studying realities. But even so much misery involved, so much attachement, it's all still so natural. I would repeat my anagarika friend's words on people that slander u, when they found out u drink. Strong attachement, thinking stories, no observing, no studying realities? SO WHAT?...so what? Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125131 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:10 pm Subject: Re: Broken heart? 7. The 'situation' - the story szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, Jessica > Just remembered, the other day with Jessica's friends, we talked a lot about living in dream worlds most the time. Just as what we dream about at night is not real, so now, the imagined voices, the ideas, the problems are just dreams. L: And I think it is like that all the day. But there is ditthi (wrong view) and ignorance that covers up everything all the time. And they also must be known. I think of Acharn Sujin words, as I remember them: "Be aware of what ignorance ignores" - I think she ment that. >S: The friend had been told to 'control' herself. L: I remember the passage from Milindha pa~n~nha, that also must be checked in life, investigated how much we really know. This was a question if all this 5 senses that are produced by kamma, if they are conditioned by one kamma or different kammas. Venerable Nagasena answers: By different kammas, and give a simile of planting a seeds. It's like planting different seeds, what we get later will be the same plant or different plants? Different was the answer of a king, they cannot be other than different cause different seeds give different plants. This is exactly with these 5 senses. Eye, visible object, ear, sound...,body and tangible objects. They are not ours, they are just different moments, conditioned by different kammas from a past. My question here is why Ven. Nagasena and King Milinda are talking only of 5 senses? >S: The friend had been told to 'control' herself. But all these dhammas are conditioned - habits, tendencies, sense experiences. She had been told to 'practice more', but the dhammas are anatta - they are for understanding, not for trying to control. L: As Bhante Dhammadharo mentions, this is understanding that nothing is under control. This is the way of correct understanding. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125132 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:30 pm Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil, > > Ph: How do yoy feel about the expression "out of your hands?". ... > ..Anyways, how do you feel about the idea "out of your hands?" >Does it sound right to you? L: Out of what hands?? There are only different ayatanas, no hands. >And alcohol. I had a drink two days in a row last week, and enjoyed it? Where is this leading? Why are there not conditions for believing tgat having a drink is very harmful? L This is dangerous to u and me, not for others. This is not alcohol itself that is dangerous. I would say we are dangerous for ourselves. >In the case of opiates, the defilent is VERY strong, I was always a regulsr but controllled drinker, I dislike hangovers so never have more than one drink. ( That is the defilement speaking, see?) L: And who else can speak? vaci sankharas that are conditioned only by ignorance? kilesa vatta? defilements that speaks? defilements speak. >The understanding that understands those weak friends for what they >are ( self seeking control) is already stronger and of course the understanding that arises in an effective but unpredictable and uncontrollable way(anatta) to remind us in a timely way why it would be foolish and harmful to drink is an even stronger friend, and the even deeper understanding at the kevel of satipatthana that is aware with detachment and understanding of arisen sense door objects is even more powerful, though it so very rare for us. L: friends, bad company is vipaka. In reality we cannot choose our friends. They are just vipaka. this is a correct way of understanding. >It is also unpredictable and uncontollable whether you will listen to the voice of tge defilement that says "only 1% of addicts survive, what use is it to get professional treatment?" L: The worst voice is like that: 'why u dont take anything now? Why u prolonging ur suffering only, and u know u will take in future. So why u suffer' - the worst voice. Basicly I am really scared to go back to old environment, really scared, especially knowing myself, and how this all things always end. But still not enoght panna to stop this. The point is what I wanted to show. Thinking in a right way, is the best way to do. This is how the Lord preached, and this is how we live. Try to understand correctly. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125133 From: Lukas Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:38 pm Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Jessica and Sarah, ... >S: Maybe you can add more and give some examples from the text. Perhaps you can encourage Jessica to discuss her >study projects more. L: Dhatukatha follows the Dhammasangani, the first book of Abhidhamma and Vibhanga the second book of Abhidhamma. In Dhammasangani the Lord explains all realies that may come. There he classifies them on many different ways such as: kusala dhammaa, akusala dhammaa, avyakata dhamma. This group is a triplet. All dhammas can be classified like that. sukhaya vedanaya sampayutta dhamma, dukkhaya vedanaya sampayutta dhamma, adukkhamasukkhya vedanaya sampayutta dhamma. another triplet on realities. so all this dhammas that are associated with pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling and neither pleasant of unpleasant. There are also couplets like, hetu dhamma, na hetu dhamma. This all realities that are a root, or that are not root. And in Vibhanga we can consider more. Ruupa now like visible object? hetu or na hetu? Dhatukatha follows, and considers any reality as just elements, that are not self. There are also other 4 books. As I remember this is puggalapa~n~nati,concepts of persons, katha vathu, points of controversy(only matika, the introduction made by buddha himself), yamaka, and patthana, the great book on conditions. Just check it cause I am not sure. How i find it? This all are different vibhangas(classifications), to help to consider realities. Check atthasalini, 4 oceans, ocean of methods. This is how Theravada works. This is called vibhajjavada or something like that, the teachings of classifictions. Check also a concept on saavaka, the hearers. Theravada is purely based on that, listening and considering Dhamma. That's what I can say after few years of practicing theravada, I feel that way. And if Abhidhamma is true work of Buddha? That only u can say. If u read that, and this really brings understanding, then u will how powerful it is. Maybe anyone wants to correct me? Or add something, welcome. Best wishes Lukas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (19) #125134 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:25 pm Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello Lukas What a wonderful survey of Abhidhamma, my worries about you backslidubg into drugs are fading you are a true follower of the Buddha, like Jessica, and of course others. I am not like that now, Dhs and Atth sit on my bookshelf and I read pip psychology instead. But that's ok, it has come to be and can't be changed there is no impulse to be a devoted folloeer of the Buddha now, but in a sense by not getting upset about it, it shows there is an appreciation of anattaness and unpredictability of dhammas. Thanks for your post on "not in your gands", back in a few days, there is a lot of confidence that you will rise above this challenge, your kusala chanda feels so string, even through the computer screen. I have bwver ysed the Pali word people use to rejoice in others' kusala, anumoddha or something like that, but I rejoice in your kusala now!!! phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (19) #125135 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:03 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E and Robert K, > > > KH: When there is right understanding there is no one who is killed and no one who kills. That's what the monk knew. And so of course we will say the conventionally known monk did not purposely tread on caterpillars. (Even though it seems obvious he should have known that was going to happen!) ++++++++++ Dear Kenh thanks for the further explanations. Could you say even more... In the earlier case of the Buddhist abortion doctor you suggested he should be confident in his understanding of kamma and vipaka: assuming this doctor had right understanding he would know there were no beings in the ultimate sense and his operations , as there is no being being killed, and no one doimng any killing, would be blameness. Is that right? robert > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125136 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:37 am Subject: Re: Doubt after each moment. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Op 20-jun-2012, om 12:21 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > Then A. Sujin says there is doubt after each monent, after each > door. What did she mean? Is there doubt with every akusala citta, > since there is subtle akusala of subtle attachment with every > object, so doubt too? > ------ N: It is likely to arise often so long as one is not a sotaapanna. When one learns to be aware of naama and ruupa that appears now there may still be doubt: is it visible object that appears now or is it seeing, is it naama or ruupa? Or: is the citta at this moment kusala or akusala? ------- > Ph: Doubt feels like something that needs a topic to think about, > not something that arises after each moment of experiencing a sense > door object. > ----- N: It can arise through six doors, not only through the mind-door. Sometimes it is a topic one thinks about: is it possible to attain enlightenment, to really eradicate defilements for good? ------ > Ph: I don't understand doubt, or saddha either, in Dhamma terms, I > understand only the conventional meanings. For me doubt is, for > example, doubting there is a result of bad deeds, that kind of big > dangerous doubt. > ------- N: doubt arises with a citta, akusala citta, namely one type of moha- muula-citta that is vicikicchaa-sampayutta, accompanied by doubt. It is one moment of citta. It is difficult to know its characteristic, only when it is object of sati and pa~n~naa it can be realised as it is. Meanwhile we may doubt about doubt. The same for saddhaa. It arises with every kusala citta and its characteristic is purifying. When we hear the word confidence we may confuse it with rapture or happiness, but that is not its characteristic. We may be carried away by the word confidence and take it for self. Only when there is sati and pa~n~naa its characteristic can be known more precisely. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125137 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:40 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H., and Rob K. Sorry, long post. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > KH: When there is right understanding there is no one who is killed and no one who kills. For the cetana that intends to kill, and the rupas of killing to arise there has to be akusala. It's not a question of whether there is ultimately a being or not. Akusala and right understanding cannot arise together. There cannot be intentional killing with right understanding. You are saying that there is no intentional killing in the case of the caterpillars because there is right understanding that there are no beings to kill or be killed. So right understanding turns the worst kamma of killing into kusala? Monks are not allowed to eat meat that was killed for them, because the intention of those who killed the animals was to give them as food for the monks. So they cannot partake of that killing, even though they may have right understanding. Or are you saying that if the monks involved had right understanding -- no beings -- they can eat the meat? Or if those preparing the food have right understanding, they can kill the animals for the monks? Take a professional butcher, who kills chickens and prepares them for sale - that is his job. If he is a Buddhist and has right understanding, he can kill as many chickens as he likes and sell them because he knows they are not beings? If that is the case then there is no kind of killing, including killing of humans, that would not be fine for Buddhists as long as they have right understanding. Is it possible to kill people and have the cittas at that time be kusala? My take on the caterpillar story is that if the monk could have avoided stepping on the caterpillars he would have done so, but since he was blind he could not. No intention to kill - whatever caterpillars are killed it is by accident. Even though he could guess that they may be killed if he walks through that area without being able to see, it is not intentional. To the extent he could avoid killing them he would. And if he could see and didn't bother to avoid stepping on them, the kamma would be there, even if he had right understanding. That is my understanding. That's what the monk knew. And so of course we will say the conventionally known monk did not purposely tread on caterpillars. (Even though it seems obvious he should have known that was going to happen!) Knowing something is going to happen is not the same as doing it purposely. I know that if I walk across a lawn I may step on some insects and they may die, but I'm not killing them intentionally. Buddhism does not require that I avoid walking on the grass. Buddhism is reasonable, but it does not allow purposeful killing when it can be avoided. There is a gigantic difference in my view between walking across the lawn and accidentally stepping on an insect I cannot see, and seeing an insect and purposely stepping on it. Likewise, if a dog attacked me and in defending myself from being bitten the dog was killed, that's okay - no intention to kill. But if I stop the dog from harming me and then when it is wounded I purposely kill it, that is kamma. Likewise with a professional butcher - that is not right livelihood for a Buddhist no matter how right his understanding is. For a non-Buddhist it's fine. > ++++++++++ > Dear Kenh > thanks for the further explanations. Could you say even more... > In the earlier case of the Buddhist abortion doctor you suggested he should be confident in his understanding of kamma and vipaka: assuming this doctor had right understanding he would know there were no beings in the ultimate sense and his operations , as there is no being being killed, and no one doing any killing, would be blameness. Is that right? ------------------------ Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125138 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:49 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H. and Rob K. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > >>>RK: Right understanding should lead to less > deliberate killing I think. > > > > >RE: I think this is the main point in terms of a connection between dhammas and > actions 'in the world,' [or the rupas involved,] that when there is kusala there > will also be right action, and as you say above, when there is right > understanding, there will be a consequent 'less deliberate killing.' > ------------ > > KH: When there is right understanding there is no one who is killed and no one who kills. But there is still killing - the rupas which arise and end those cittas, leaving to the final death citta for that 'being.' The being may just be five kandhas but the rupas and namas of the killing do take place, both from the 'killer's' kandhas and the experience of the 'killed's' kandhas. So you are saying that with right understanding the namas and rupas of killing have no kamma, and that killing may still take place, but without any akusala. I don't think the Buddha ever said or implied anything like that. > That's what the monk knew. And so of course we will say the conventionally known monk did not purposely tread on caterpillars. (Even though it seems obvious he should have known that was going to happen!) There really was no sentient (permanent) monk. That was just a conventional designation for the five khandhas. (In this case five khandhas totally devoid of akusala kamma.) So the conventional story has to be about an innocent monk doesn't it? Better still an innocent monk who seemed to all but the most enlightened (including some of his fellow monks) to be guilty. I think the point of the story that without the akusala cetana and the intention to kill a being, there was no kamma for the monk. Because he was blind, he could not be responsible for that which he could not see and did not intend. Accidental or circumstantial killing does not have the same kamma as purposeful or willful killing. What's important about the story is that kamma follows the cetana, not necessarily the act, if the act is accidental or unavoidable. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125139 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:21 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert K, ----- <. . .> RK: In the earlier case of the Buddhist abortion doctor you suggested he should be confident in his understanding of kamma and vipaka: assuming this doctor had right understanding he would know there were no beings in the ultimate sense and his operations , as there is no being being killed, and no one doimng any killing, would be blameness. Is that right? ----- KH: No, it is not right because there are really no doctors and no surgical orperations – no permanent entities of any kind. In the earlier case (whenever that was) I was suggesting there should be right understanding of conditioned dhammas. That's the only way to answer questions of "Is this concept kusala? Is that concept akusala?" or "You are saving this woman's life, so is abortion kusala?" "You are killing an unborn child, so is abortion akusala?" or, "You are just performing your legal duties as a doctor, so is abortion only mildly akusala?" Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125140 From: Vince Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt after each moment. cerovzt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Phil wrote: >> Ph: I don't understand doubt, or saddha either, in Dhamma terms I like this from the Maha-satipatthana Sutta: "When doubt or wavering of the mind is present in him, he knows 'There is doubt in me'; or when doubt is not present in him, he knows 'There is no doubt in me'. Besides, he knows that the doubt which has not yet arisen comes to arise; and he knows that the doubt that has arisen comes to be discarded; and he knows that the discarded doubt will not arise in the future." best, Vince, Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125141 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:48 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert E, ------ <. . . > > RE:You are saying that there is no intentional killing in the case of the caterpillars because there is right understanding that there are no beings to kill or be killed. So right understanding turns the worst kamma of killing into kusala? ------- KH: Do you mean past akusala kamma would suddenly be seen as not akusala? I don't know if there's any logic in that, but it is not what I was saying. Suppose you are in a room that has no other living beings in it: in a conventional way you rightly understand there is no one there to be killed, don't you? Can you kill anyone at that time? Of course you can't; the room is empty. Isn't it the same when right understanding arises at any other time? In other words, when there is (satipatthana) there cannot be an intention to kill, can there? ------- <.. . > > RE: Monks are not allowed to eat meat that was killed for them, because the intention of those who killed the animals was to give them as food for the monks. So they cannot partake of that killing, even though they may have right understanding. Or are you saying that if the monks involved had right understanding -- no beings -- they can eat the meat? ------- KH: I think it's just a training rule. In those circumstances monks are forbidden to eat meat regardless of what their [kusala or akusala] intentions might be. ------------ > RE: Or if those preparing the food have right understanding, they can kill the animals for the monks? ------------ KH: As I have just said, when there is right understanding there can't be any killing. ---------------- > RE: Take a professional butcher, who kills chickens and prepares them for sale - that is his job. If he is a Buddhist and has right understanding, he can kill as many chickens as he likes and sell them because he knows they are not beings? ----------------- KH: If he has right understanding there can't be any killing. Even if the conventional stories told by witnesses were of deliberate killing, in reality there can't have been any such thing. Therefore, even if the blind monk's companions thought, "We told him there were caterpillars on the path and yet he still went on his routine walk and squashed some of them: surely he must be guilty of killing!" in fact they were wrong. ----------- > RE: If that is the case then there is no kind of killing, including killing of humans, that would not be fine for Buddhists as long as they have right understanding. Is it possible to kill people and have the cittas at that time be kusala? ----------- KH: No it is not possible. Just as it is not possible to kill people in an empty room. ------------------ > RE: My take on the caterpillar story is that if the monk could have avoided stepping on the caterpillars he would have done so, but since he was blind he could not. No intention to kill - whatever caterpillars are killed it is by accident. ------------------- KH: Does that mean blind people can drive cars down busy streets and kill human pedestrians with impunity? -------------------------------- > RE: Even though he could guess that they may be killed if he walks through that area without being able to see, it is not intentional. To the extent he could avoid killing them he would. And if he could see and didn't bother to avoid stepping on them, the kamma would be there, even if he had right understanding. That is my understanding. --------------------------------- KH: Perhaps you will agree now that my explanation was better. Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125142 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:53 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > KH: Do you mean past akusala kamma would suddenly be seen as not akusala? I don't know if there's any logic in that, but it is not what I was saying. > > Suppose you are in a room that has no other living beings in it: in a conventional way you rightly understand there is no one there to be killed, don't you? Can you kill anyone at that time? Of course you can't; the room is empty. > > Isn't it the same when right understanding arises at any other time? In other words, when there is (satipatthana) there cannot be an intention to kill, can there? > ++++++++++++ Dear kenh correct me if i am wrong, but there are never any beings in the ultimate sense , whether one knows it or not, right? So how can there ever be killing. or if there is sometimes killing could you give an example of the actual killing process. robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125143 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt after each moment. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello Vince Thanks, but I doubt (there it is again, in the conventional sense) that we can approach suttas such as MN 10 without indulging in speculation based on the conventional meaning of the English terms, or even the Pali terms, tackled without rigour. We need to study the paramattha dhamma as taught in Abhidhamma to have a beginning of right understanding, in my opinion. But thanks anyways.. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > Phil wrote: > > >> Ph: I don't understand doubt, or saddha either, in Dhamma terms > > I like this from the Maha-satipatthana Sutta: > > "When doubt or wavering of the mind is present in him, he knows .... Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125144 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:05 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 3, 2. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, As we read in the “Paramatthajotikå”, “He is enlightened by seeing all...”. The paññå he had developed for countless aeons reached its fulfilment at the moment of enlightenment. He had seen the conditions for all realities of life and he had realized these realities as the are: impermanent, dukkha and anattå (non-self). After having understood conditioned realities as they are, paññå could experience the unconditioned reality: nibbåna. The Buddha had discovered the “four noble Truths”: the Truth of dukkha, of the origin of dukkha, of the cessation of dukkha and of the Path leading to the cessation of dukkha. All conditioned realities are dukkha (suffering), since they arise and fall away. What arises and falls away cannot be happiness, it is dukkha. Birth is dukkha and our whole life is dukkha, because there is the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa continuously. What we take for “our body” and “our mind” are rúpas and nåmas that do not stay and are therefore dukkha, not worth clinging to. Since there is birth, there have to be old age, sickness and death. The origin of dukkha is craving. Because of craving there is the arising of nåma and rúpa at birth and our lives have to go on and on. So long as there is craving the cycle of birth and death will continue and there is no end to dukkha. The Buddha taught the Path leading to the end of dukkha. The third Truth is the cessation of dukkha, which is nibbåna. The fourth Truth is the Way leading to the cessation of dukkha, which is the eightfold Path. ******** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125145 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:07 pm Subject: Awareness and Thinking, no 4. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Kh Sujin: Someone may ask what to do so that satipatthaana arises. One should listen in order to understand what satipatthaana is and of what it is aware. If one has listened sufficiently and understood what one heard sati can be aware immediately. One should not do anything special. If there is right understanding sati can arise naturally and it goes together with detachment from the idea that it is self who is aware. Otherwise there is all the time an idea of self who has to do something. The development is deep and difficult, because it has to go together with detachment. Pa~n~naa must see the Truth of the origin of dukkha, lobha, so that there will be detachment. Otherwise it cannot let go of lobha. Kh Santi: When there is avarice one thinks of oneself and other kinds of kusala cannot be developed. He should have the intention to be generous. Kh S: It happened that an avaricious person became a sotaapanna. In his case pa~n~naa could be developed to the stage of attaining enlightenment. When avarice arises do not think that one has to do first this or that instead of being aware of the characteristics of realities. When a reality appears such as avarice one should know in what way to detach from the idea of self. If one does not know the way and performs daana without being aware of realities, it is not possible to detach from the idea of self. Whatever arises, be it avarice or generosity, should be known as only a dhamma. One day there will not be the idea of self who thinks or acts. One may want to strive for daana, and even be very generous, but one may be striving with the idea of self, and then there is no way to be free from the cycle of birth and death. There will be detachment from the idea of self who is avaricious if there can be awareness of avarice when it arises as sankhaarakkhandha that has been accumulated. That characteristic can be known by right understanding as only a dhamma. ********** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125146 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:57 pm Subject: Re: Doubt after each moment. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina > > Ph: Doubt feels like something that needs a topic to think about, > > not something that arises after each moment of experiencing a sense > > door object. > > > ----- > N: It can arise through six doors, not only through the mind-door. Ph: Could you explain a little more about doubt that is *not* through the mind-door? I have trouble understanding that. Thanks. Phil > Sometimes it is a topic one thinks about: is it possible to attain > enlightenment, to really eradicate defilements for good? > ------ Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125147 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:07 pm Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas > > L: Out of what hands?? There are only different ayatanas, no hands. Ph: It is just an idiom, if we say "it is out of our hands" it means "it is beyond our control." Of course we understand that there is no control over dhammas, but it is possible that the illusion of control over dhammas could be helpful in avoiding drugs. Possible, but very unlikely. The only hope is that understanding arises, as you say so well. I believe understanding is arising for you and will arise for you, I have confidence in your connection to Dhamma. Even at the most simple and baseic level, the thought of you drinking and doing drugs in a way that shows disrespect to the Lord Buddha is hard to believe, at least from what I sense from your posts now. On the other hand, I have lost my sense of devotion to the Lord Buddha, so I am very vulnerable. You have that protective devotion to Buddha, and, deeper and more valuable, you have a diligent attitude to developing understanding of present dhammas, I think you are almost beyond danger, just keep in touch with DSG at all times, with your Dhamma friends here. As for me, I think I will be all right too, I don't like the physical effect of drinking anymore, even one beer interferes with the pleasant sensations I get from "meditation/yoga. As for marijuana which I love Love LOVE I don't want to smoke it when I got to Canada because I am afraid it will damage too many brain cells, I am doing what I can to slow down the onset of Alzheimer's! So I think I'll be all right too. But who knows, Montreal is a crazy sexy city in summer and I have a lot of crazy sexy friends there. Nothing anyone here can say will protect me, because I have lost the protection of believing that Dhamma is an invaluable treasure. I suspect that belief will return, but there is no telling when, beyond control, anatta. Phil Phil > > >And alcohol. I had a drink two days in a row last week, and enjoyed it? Where is this leading? Why are there not conditions for believing tgat having a drink is very harmful? > > L This is dangerous to u and me, not for others. This is not alcohol itself that is dangerous. I would say we are dangerous for ourselves. > > >In the case of opiates, the defilent is VERY strong, I was always a regulsr but controllled drinker, I dislike hangovers so never have more than one drink. ( That is the defilement speaking, see?) > > L: And who else can speak? vaci sankharas that are conditioned only by ignorance? > kilesa vatta? defilements that speaks? defilements speak. > > >The understanding that understands those weak friends for what they >are ( self seeking control) is already stronger and of course the understanding that arises in an effective but unpredictable and uncontrollable way(anatta) to remind us in a timely way why it would be foolish and harmful to drink is an even stronger friend, and the even deeper understanding at the kevel of satipatthana that is aware with detachment and understanding of arisen sense door objects is even more powerful, though it so very rare for us. > > L: friends, bad company is vipaka. In reality we cannot choose our friends. They are just vipaka. this is a correct way of understanding. > > > >It is also unpredictable and uncontollable whether you will listen to the voice of tge defilement that says "only 1% of addicts survive, what use is it to get professional treatment?" > > L: The worst voice is like that: 'why u dont take anything now? Why u prolonging ur suffering only, and u know u will take in future. So why u suffer' - the worst voice. > > Basicly I am really scared to go back to old environment, really scared, especially knowing myself, and how this all things always end. But still not enoght panna to stop this. > The point is what I wanted to show. Thinking in a right way, is the best way to do. This is how the Lord preached, and this is how we live. Try to understand correctly. > > Best wishes > Lukas > Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125148 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:25 pm Subject: spd 32 "While walking, we should know that we are walking" correctly understood philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Group Here is today's passage from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket: "As regards the wording, "while walking, we should know that we are walking", in reality it is not 'I' or self who is walking, but only rupa. WHen sati is aware of the characteristics of rupas of the body that appear while walking, there is mindfulness of the body. (kaayaanupassanaa satipatthana.) However, people cannot force sati to be aware all the time of rupas appearing through the bodysense. Sati is anatta and it depends on conditions whether it will arise and be aware of a characteristic of nama or rupa. It can be aware of any characteristic of nama or rupa that arises and appears natural, just as it is." (381) (end of passage) phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125149 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:31 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi My argument is with Robert K for his insistence that people - not just dhammas) - are reborn, or that people - not just dhammas – perform kusala and akusala actions. Or that concepts are made of lots and lots of kalapas of rupas (as if kalapas were molecules and rupas were atoms!). > > +++++++++++ Dear Kenh perhaps you could quote me directly. But anyway lets look at what Nina writes in her profound book on physical phenomena: "Rupas do not arise singly, they arise in units or groups. What we take for our body is composed of many groups or units, consisting each of different kinds of rupa, and the rupas in such a group arise together and fall away together. " "The unborn being in the womb, for example, needs the right temperature in order to grow. Throughout life the element of heat produces rupas. Nutrition is another factor which produces rupas. When food has been taken by a living being it is assimilated into the body and then nutrition can produce rupas. Some of the groups of rupa of our body are produced by kamma, some by citta, some by temperature and some by nutrition. The four factors which produce the rupas of our body support and consolidate each other and keep this shortlived body going. "" Do you feel I say something different from Nina? Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125150 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Ken (and RobE and RobK) - In a message dated 6/22/2012 3:49:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Robert E, ------ <. . . > > RE:You are saying that there is no intentional killing in the case of the caterpillars because there is right understanding that there are no beings to kill or be killed. So right understanding turns the worst kamma of killing into kusala? ------- KH: Do you mean past akusala kamma would suddenly be seen as not akusala? I don't know if there's any logic in that, but it is not what I was saying. Suppose you are in a room that has no other living beings in it: in a conventional way you rightly understand there is no one there to be killed, don't you? Can you kill anyone at that time? Of course you can't; the room is empty. Isn't it the same when right understanding arises at any other time? In other words, when there is (satipatthana) there cannot be an intention to kill, can there? ================================ HCW: The Buddha addressed this very issue when discussing a (materialist, I believe) sect at his time that said that because a human body consists of mere particles separated by space, there is no fault in running them through with a sword. The Buddha roundly condemned this view. A good source for finding false views including "justifications" for murder is DN 2, the Samaññaphala Sutta. Several false teachers are mentioned there. A good example is the following: _______________________________ "Another time I approached Pakudha Kaccayana and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings and courtesies, I sat to one side. As I was sitting there I asked him: 'Venerable Kaccayana, there are these common craftsmen... They live off the fruits of their crafts, visible in the here and now... Is it possible, venerable sir, to point out a similar fruit of the contemplative life, visible in the here and now?' "When this was said, Pakudha Kaccayana said to me, 'Great king, there are these seven substances — unmade, irreducible, uncreated, without a creator, barren, stable as a mountain-peak, standing firm like a pillar — that do not alter, do not change, do not interfere with one another, are incapable of causing one another pleasure, pain, or both pleasure and pain. Which seven? The earth-substance, the liquid-substance, the fire-substance, the wind-substance, pleasure, pain, and the soul as the seventh. These are the seven substances — unmade, irreducible, uncreated, without a creator, barren, stable as a mountain-peak, standing firm like a pillar — that do not alter, do not change, do not interfere with one another, and are incapable of causing one another pleasure, pain, or both pleasure and pain. "'And among them there is no killer nor one who causes killing, no hearer nor one who causes hearing, no cognizer nor one who causes cognition. When one cuts off [another person's] head, there is no one taking anyone's life. It is simply between the seven substances that the sword passes.' __________________________________ HCW: The foregoing position and similar ones described in the same sutta, for example those of Purana Kassapa, are responded to in detail by the Buddha elsewhere, for example in MN 60, Apannaka Sutta: A Safe Bet. ------------------------------------------------------------- With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125151 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt after each moment. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Op 22-jun-2012, om 12:57 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ph: Could you explain a little more about doubt that is *not* > through the mind-door? I have trouble understanding that. ------- N: Its manifestation is "uncertainty of grasp". When sati and pa~n~naa arise there is understanding of the characteristic of visibla object as just visible object, a kind of ruupa. There can be certainty of grasp on account of all the sense objects. When doubt arises this is not so. At this moment it seems that we can see and hear at the same time. No certainty whether it is visible object that appears now or sound. There is also mental rigidity (see Expositor), not the wieldiness that goes together with understanding. We may be fixed on the conventional meaning of doubt, but it is not so that there must always be stories one thinks about. A similar example is the realisation of dhammas as being conditioned, the second stage of insight. People cannot imagine how this can be realized without thinking about it. No stories, it is just in the moment. The same for doubt, it is just in the moment. ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125152 From: Vince Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt after each moment. cerovzt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Philip you wrote: > Thanks, but I doubt (there it is again, in the conventional sense) that we can > approach suttas such as MN 10 without indulging in speculation based on the conventional > meaning of the English terms, or even the Pali terms, tackled without rigour. We need > to study the paramattha dhamma as taught in Abhidhamma to have > a beginning of right understanding, in my opinion. But thanks anyways.. yes, I think you are right. Although the first sense of the Sutta still is useful to look into the nature of the doubt. In example, about its impermanence. Even without knowing Abhidhamma still one can realize the nature of the doubt is the arising and vanishing. However, there is also a misunderstanding of that attention with sati. So I think it is related with what you cited in a later message: > "As regards the wording, "while walking, we should know that we are walking", in > reality it is not 'I' or self who is walking, but only rupa. WHen sati is aware of the > characteristics of rupas of the body that appear while walking, there is mindfulness of > the body. (kaayaanupassanaa satipatthana.) However, people cannot force sati to be aware > all the time of rupas appearing through the bodysense. Sati is anatta and it depends on > conditions whether it will arise and be aware of a characteristic of nama or rupa. It > can be aware of any characteristic of nama or rupa that arises and appears natural, just > as it is." (381) in daily life I think we are flooded by both types of confusion. We can be attached ignoring impermanence, and even being aware of that, still there is ignorance because we are ignoring the anatta nature of the experience. best, Vince. Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125153 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:31 am Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil, Tomorrow, Saturday, I am coming back Poland by bus from London. I sall be home Sunday 6 p.m >Phil: As for me, I think I will be all right too, I don't like the physical effect of drinking anymore, even one beer interferes with the pleasant sensations I get from "meditation/yoga. As for marijuana which I love Love LOVE L: I have many friends in Poland, who are seriously addicted to marihuana. I recall two of them. They are both in tehirs erly twenties both with girls, in serious relationship. They dont do bad things, they are very peaceful and very caring of anothers and very tollerant. I think this is mostly because of marihuana or maybe that those with tendencies to marihuana have tendency usualy to be a good person. They somke like 6 years. And they tottaly lost their control over smoking. They cry how to leave it and they cant. They spend so much nmoney for that. Also phisically they have a big holes in their memory etc.. I think marihuana, thought it's not typical drug may be very dangerous. I myself could not study dhammas when on hi. >Phil: I don't want to smoke it when I got to Canada because I am afraid it will damage too many brain cells, I am doing what I can to slow down the onset of Alzheimer's! L: Do u have Alzheimer? > So I think I'll be all right too. But who knows, Montreal is a crazy sexy city in summer and I have a lot of crazy sexy friends there. Nothing anyone here can say will protect me, because I have lost the protection of believing that Dhamma is an invaluable treasure. I suspect that belief will return, but there is no telling when, beyond control, anatta. L: I think it will come back when u stay with Dhamma. For me Dhamma is the most important thing that happen to me. I am also happy that i had a lot of misery in life. This keep me coming back constantly to Dhamma when I am in trouble. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125154 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Op 22-jun-2012, om 13:07 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > . Nothing anyone here can say will protect me, because I have lost > the protection of believing that Dhamma is an invaluable treasure. > I suspect that belief will return, but there is no telling when, > beyond control, anatta. ------ N:It depends on the development of understanding. When this is firm enough there will be more confidence. Confidence is not merely a feeling of devotion. The more you can prove for yourself the truth of the teaching, the more confidence can grow, by conditions. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125155 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Nina & Phil - In a message dated 6/22/2012 10:59:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Phil, Op 22-jun-2012, om 13:07 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > . Nothing anyone here can say will protect me, because I have lost > the protection of believing that Dhamma is an invaluable treasure. > I suspect that belief will return, but there is no telling when, > beyond control, anatta. ------ N:It depends on the development of understanding. When this is firm enough there will be more confidence. Confidence is not merely a feeling of devotion. The more you can prove for yourself the truth of the teaching, the more confidence can grow, by conditions. Nina. ============================ Exactly, Nina!! When one sees for himself/herself the correctness even of one aspect of the Dhamma, one's trust will grow. I remember years ago when I had a colon resection done for what turned out to be (only) an extreme case of diverticulitis. The prior colonoscopy that led to almost immediate surgery suggested the strong possibility of it being colon cancer. Moreover, the surgeon in seeing the diseased tissue - even holding the mass in his hands, was certain (in the very midst of the surgery) that it was malignant. After the surgery, I had to wait 6 days for the results of the biopsy to be returned, and meanwhile the doctors started discussing treatment options. At this time, I recalled the core Dhamma teaching that the primary cause of suffering is tanha, and I vowed then and there NOT to wish for the results to be that the tissue was benign - NOT to "hope"!! That Dhamma recollection and that strong and very serious vow had the effect that throughout the 6-day waiting period, I was at peace, and I was able to calm my wife and sons, who, naturally, were distraught. After 6 days, my gastroenterologist bounced into the room grinning ear to ear, and informed me that there was no cancer at all! My amazingly unemotional reaction, were it to be put into words, was "Oh, it's that way and not the other." I learned *first-hand* from this the truth of tanha --> dukkha and that *not* craving is a fundamental source of mental peace. From that point on, my confidence in the Dhamma as a whole became radically stronger, grounded and *real*. When you know for yourself what is conducive to peace, you *truly* know and do not just believe. This is what builds saddha. The teachings need to be known, recalled, and acted upon. With metta, Howard "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" — _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125156 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:51 am Subject: Animals Love Monks yawares1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Members, I have funny/cute pictures/articles about monks/animals to share with you all.[From Dhamma Wheel] http://www.croatiantimes.com/image/17765/news/Around_the_World/2012-06-21/27881/\ Monk-ey_Business http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12859 Hope you all smile when seeing these pictures. yawares Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125157 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina and Sarah , sorry for being late in answering, the issue is a bit complicated partly due to different perspectives and so is the editing. you wrote: (DHowever due to the deep(er) exploration of the Dhamma we find this > distinction in Abhidhamma , so that one may wonder why for this > issue your perspective is not mine ( 'Suttanist) and my perspective > is not yours ('Abhidhammika') :-) --------- N: I am disinclined to see the teaching expounded in the Suttanta and in the Abhidhamma as different. Also in the suttas we find many passages on paramattha dhammas, and also when the Buddha spoke by way of sammutti sacca this was in order to explain paramattha dhammas. --------- D: my proposition was that the Buddha did not distinguish reality and concept , so that in the suttas khandhas are treated like the dhammas, whereas in Abhidhamma in a deeper exploration concept and reality is distinguished. our discussion orignated in Nyanatiloka's definition of khandha: "the fact ought to be emphasized here that these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha, but that they as such, i.e. as just these 5 complete groups, have no real existence, since only single representatives of these groups, mostly variable, can arise with any state of consciousness." Now Sarah disagrees with the Venerable , who-as I understand -specifies what in Abhidhamma is called a concept= abstract classification (of the realities) and claims they are realities like the dhammas they are heading. (D:the issue concerns how we distínguish realities and concepts and I believe this is important in Abhidhamma . .... S: and what the Abhidhamma stresses is the understanding of realities now, such as heat or hardness or thinking - whatever appears now. This is the only way that the confusion about realities and concepts will ever be resolved....>) D: if the different perspectives are mixed or neglected , the confusion will last again in order to keep the thread: D: I think there are texts in which the Buddha talked about arising and falling away of the khandhas , ... S: Yes, I've quoted many suttas in this regard. No question about it. This is why the Buddha taught about dhammas as khandhas - to stress the impermanence of each one. ... D:one question however is whether it doesn'tt concern the khandha breakdown ( of Dependent Origination ) i.e. temporarily at death or finally (nibbana). ... S: it's all about now, realities now. The Buddha taught us to understand what is real at this very moment. This is the only way that DO, death and so on can be understood. Dnew: repeating : how about Buddhagosa's interpretation of D.O. concerning 3 lives ? ... D The other is the consideration whether the Buddha distinguished at all between realities and concepts. .... S: Heat is a reality which can be directly known now. 'Butter-jar" is a concept which can only ever be thought about. All the teachings are for understanding, testing out at this moment. Dnew: taking jar for khandha ,e.g. the. vinnana jar inlucing eye consciousness, ear consciousness etc. , the jar indeed is a concept, isn't it? N:Heard in a Thai recording and I thought of you: Understanding D.O. is not different from vipassanaa ~naa.na. Without satipa.t.thaana we just think of the story of D.O., of the concept of it. We do not understand characteristics. We listen and consider and we begin to understand why ignorance is a condition for sa"nkhaara. Kamma conditions vi~n~naa.na, the rebirth- consciousness. It is the fruit of past kamma, and we can see how the results are so different when looking at humans and animals. Naama is different from ruupa, we can understand more and more and in detail the characteristics of naama and ruupa. Even when listening to Dhamma now we can begin to understand D.O. If there would not have been rebirth-consciousness there would not be any reality now. There are aayatanas, we can understand D.O. through the six doorways. The second vipassanaa ~naa.na is direct understanding of conditions. There is no self who can do this or that. Whatever arises, sati included, does so because of the appropriate conditions. Nobody can force the arising of any reality. ------- N: I find it very good how Kh Sujin stresses that only by knowing characteristics of naama and ruupa, by satipa.t.thaana, we can understand D.O. There is so little use of just thinking stories about D.O. , knowing the classifications and terms. Besides, there is always "me", "me", when we are doing so. No way to really grasp what D.O. is. The real purpose of the teaching of D.O. is teaching anattaa. But this is not a mere word. Characteristics of naama and ruupa should be understood, when they appear: now. That is the way to penetrate the meaning of anattaa. ------ D: I understand the purpose of the teaching of D.O. to show the orgination of the whole mass of suffering , a middle between a (lasting ) soul and a non-soul due as a process of conditioned and interrelated dhammas .It answers in detail why in brief the embedded khandhas and our attachment of it , are called suffering in brief and points to it's related roots. The very interesting elements of the chain are not only nama and rupa , but the sequence of .....contact (passa) - sensation/feeling (vedana )- urge /thirst (tanha ) - clinging/attachment (upadana) .. because it becomes clear why disenchantment and dispassion are so important to realize anatta /detachment and by that break this chain , which is keeping us wandering (kamma) in this round of birth and death (samsara). well, I don't necessarily expect that you agree with me .. ;-) with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125158 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:16 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert K, ----- > RK: correct me if i am wrong, but there are never any beings in the ultimate sense , whether one knows it or not, right? ----- KH: That's right. ---------- > RK: So how can there ever be killing. or if there is sometimes killing could you give an example of the actual killing process. ---------- >KH: When an akusala cetana cetasika experiences the concept of volitional killing that cetana may be called `killing,' but that's the only way killing can ultimately exist, isn't it? (I.e., as a single, momentary dhamma.) When you say "the killing process" I think you are referring to the formula, 'the presence of a being that can be killed, an intention to kill and the resulting death of that being.' As for an example of that formula in practice, I always find other people's examples hard to follow, and I don't think anyone has ever followed my own attempts at giving one. Obviously the formula relates to the conditions that must be present for the [above mentioned] akusala cetana cetasika to arise. The 'being to be killed' must refer to some external khandhas, and the actual intended killing refers (I think) to the akusala strength of the citta which has to be great enough to accomplish the purpose (i.e., to condition the external death citta). It's messy, but that's the best I can do at the moment. Corrections welcome. Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125159 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:46 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, ----- <. . .> > HCW: The Buddha addressed this very issue when discussing a (materialist, I believe) sect at his time ------ KH: I don't believe it was the same issue at all. I was talking about two understandings. Firstly there was the understanding that a room that was empty must (obviously) contain no one who could be killed. And secondly there was the understanding that all dhammas were anatta and must, therefore, also contain no one who could be killed. Which of those two understandings was wrong in your opinion? Which would the Buddha have disapproved of? Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125160 From: "marycarbone153" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:21 am Subject: losing marycarbone153 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email I am mostly calm and happy until I feel I must have a close relationship with other family members. I feel there are strong control issues and I start feeling hurt and unable to converse with them for fear I will hurt their feelings. When this happens I find myself feeling like a hungry ghost. I miss my happiness. We, my family suffers from mental illness such as depression, ocd, and holding on to hurts, lacking the ability to move forward. Just went through a visit and I am feeling sad and abused like a hungry ghost. I want my happiness back and would like to be strong enough to protect it and still protect myself and my family from pain. Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125161 From: Larry Biddinger Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] losing lbidd2 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Mary, When you are sad you are also standing or sitting or lying down, maybe walking or running. Whatever the posture, it isn't sad. Mary Carbone is a group effort, not "just sad". This is the meaning of emptiness. Good luck! Larry To DSG: Hi everyone, Just stopped in to see what's going on. Nice to see all your imaginary faces. I'm away for a week, but I'll check in next weekend for any corrections or explanations ;)) L. Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125162 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] losing nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Larry, Really, I am so glad to see your imaginary face :-)) I just quoted some time ago a conversation I had with you re Visuddhimagga. Unforgettable those times. And I liked to read early morning first thing your two liners. Always good reminders. Looking forward to more of those! Nina. Op 23-jun-2012, om 5:37 heeft Larry Biddinger het volgende geschreven: > To DSG: Hi everyone, > > Just stopped in to see what's going on. Nice to see all your imaginary > faces. I'm away for a week, but I'll check in next weekend for any > corrections or explanations ;)) L. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125163 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:08 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > RE:You are saying that there is no intentional killing in the case of the > caterpillars because there is right understanding that there are no beings to > kill or be killed. So right understanding turns the worst kamma of killing into > kusala? > ------- > > KH: Do you mean past akusala kamma would suddenly be seen as not akusala? I don't know if there's any logic in that, but it is not what I was saying. I mean that kamma is not currently created by killing if it is accompanied by right understanding, and so it will not lead to future vipaka. I am not talking about the past, but the kamma generated by the current act. > Suppose you are in a room that has no other living beings in it: in a conventional way you rightly understand there is no one there to be killed, don't you? Can you kill anyone at that time? Of course you can't; the room is empty. That is not my understanding of what is meant by 'no being' when murder is committed. You seem to think that 'killing a being' is a complete hallucination and that nothing actually takes place. Therefore you are saying that any kamma created by killing is based on the mental factors, since there is no real killing. But killing is not just hallucinatory as I understand it, according to Abhidhamma. There are real things that take place even in terms of paramatha dhammas. Rupas of killing are created, and for the 'killed' arises the death citta and begins a new birth citta. I think your understanding of 'beings' and 'concepts' is dismissing the reality of the namas and rupas that are involved in these acts. The definition of kamma patha of killing is that a being has to be killed in order for it to be kamma patha. Since there is ultimately no being what does this mean? It means the namas and rupas involved in killing a being have to arise. So there is a reality to killing, beyond the concept. > Isn't it the same when right understanding arises at any other time? In other words, when there is (satipatthana) there cannot be an intention to kill, can there? When there is no intention to kill, then no killing takes place - no problem with that. Both the intention to kill and the act of intentional or wanton killing [kamma patha] have kammic consequences. And there is no intention or intentional act when there is right understanding. But this has nothing to do with the reality of killing when it does take place, which we still disagree about. You think that right understanding reveals that nothing takes place in killing, since there is no being. "Is no being" does not mean that nothing takes place. There are real namas and rupas involved in killing. > ------- > <.. . > > > RE: Monks are not allowed to eat meat that was killed for them, because the > intention of those who killed the animals was to give them as food for the > monks. So they cannot partake of that killing, even though they may have right > understanding. Or are you saying that if the monks involved had right > understanding -- no beings -- they can eat the meat? > ------- > > KH: I think it's just a training rule. In those circumstances monks are forbidden to eat meat regardless of what their [kusala or akusala] intentions might be. They are only forbidden to eat meat that was specially killed for them. Meat from animals that would have been killed anyway is not forbidden. It's not a matter of training, but of kamma, according to the Buddha. You are not allowed to create the kamma of killing yourself, nor cause someone else to take on the kamma of killing on your behalf. That's the point of the rule. > ------------ > > RE: Or if those preparing the > food have right understanding, they can kill the animals for the monks? > ------------ > > KH: As I have just said, when there is right understanding there can't be any killing. You mean there is no dead animal, since there is no being, and no killing actually takes place? I'm sorry but this is really against what the Buddha taught about non-harmfulness. There is no implication of any kind that the Buddha's real teaching is that non-harmfulness is revealed in the midst of hallucinatory slaughter by realizing that there are no beings being killed because they don't exist. To me this is really extreme, and away from the teaching. The teaching is not to kill, and that when there is no intention to kill, you won't kill another 'being,' not that since that being doesn't exist, you're not really killing anything. As I said before, this would leave open the possibility of rampant killing with no kamma, since no beings exist. That's not how it works according to the Buddha at all, in my view. > ---------------- > > RE: Take a professional butcher, who kills chickens and prepares them for sale - > that is his job. If he is a Buddhist and has right understanding, he can kill > as many chickens as he likes and sell them because he knows they are not beings? > ----------------- > > KH: If he has right understanding there can't be any killing. Even if the conventional stories told by witnesses were of deliberate killing, in reality there can't have been any such thing. Therefore, even if the blind monk's companions thought, "We told him there were caterpillars on the path and yet he still went on his routine walk and squashed some of them: surely he must be guilty of killing!" in fact they were wrong. It's not because 'no caterpillars were killed' because caterpillars are a hallucination. The point of the story was whether there was kamma for the monk or not. The Buddha is very concerned with kamma. There was no kamma for the monk because he couldn't see, and thus could not avoid killing the caterpillars. Therefore the intention to kill isn't there - it's accidental. Why else would it be the story of a blind monk? > ----------- > > RE: If that is the case then there is no kind of killing, including killing of > humans, that would not be fine for Buddhists as long as they have right > understanding. Is it possible to kill people and have the cittas at that time > be kusala? > ----------- > > KH: No it is not possible. Just as it is not possible to kill people in an empty room. So you are saying that people who would otherwise be killed will pop into nonexistence and thus be revealed to not be killed, if the killer has right understanding. You are denying the reality of the namas and rupas of killing that cause kamma for the killer. It's not a hallucination. > ------------------ > > RE: My take on the caterpillar story is that if the monk could have avoided stepping > on the caterpillars he would have done so, but since he was blind he could not. > No intention to kill - whatever caterpillars are killed it is by accident. > ------------------- > > KH: Does that mean blind people can drive cars down busy streets and kill human pedestrians with impunity? No, because of the impunity. If the blind man could avoid killing the caterpillars then he would be obligated to do so. If it was unavoidable then no. If a car is out of control and the person in the car can't avoid killing someone, no kamma. But if he's texting and not paying attention he's responsible. Courts, like the Buddha, are very concerned with different levels of intention. They work hard to make intelligent distinctions as to what is callous disregard, what is accident, what is irresponsible etc. Kamma works pretty similarly. For instance, kamma patha, completing the act, causes the most serious negative vipaka in future lives. It's not because it's a more serious hallucination, but because of the level of intention -- real -- and the actual rupas that are produced -- actual paramatha dhammas. > -------------------------------- > > RE: Even though he could guess that they may be killed if he walks through that area > without being able to see, it is not intentional. To the extent he could avoid > killing them he would. And if he could see and didn't bother to avoid stepping > on them, the kamma would be there, even if he had right understanding. That is > my understanding. > --------------------------------- > > KH: Perhaps you will agree now that my explanation was better. Why would I? Your explanation ignores the Buddha's teaching on kamma. Buddha never said even in a dream that right understanding will exempt you from kamma because you will see that no killing can possibly take place, since there are no beings. I don't think you correctly understand what it means that there are no beings. It doesn't mean that organisms and actions don't exist - just that they are not embodied by a controlling entity. There still are actions that have consequences and in the Buddha's own definition of the kamma patha of murder, a being must be killed. So I think your understanding directly contradicts the Buddha's teaching on kamma. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125164 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] losing nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Mary, Op 22-jun-2012, om 20:21 heeft marycarbone153 het volgende geschreven: > Just went through a visit and I am feeling sad and abused like a > hungry ghost. I want my happiness back and would like to be strong > enough to protect it and still protect myself and my family from pain. ------ N: We can learn from such experiences. You are unhappy and you wish to be happy, but this cannot occur on command. Exactly this is what the Buddha taught us: thoughts, feelings, material phenomena, they all arise because of the appropriate conditions and they do not belong to a self, they are anattaa, non-self. They are impermanent, as soon as they arise, they fall away again. We keep on thinking about them, worrying about them and they seem to last but this is not so. We can prove this: you feel unhappy, but there is also hearing or seeing and at those moments there is no opportunity for unhappiness. There is only one experience at a time, it arises and then falls away. After seeing there may be unhappiness again, and then seeing again, no unhappiness. We read in the suttas that one may wish the body to be in this or that way, feelings in this or that way, consciousness in this or that way, but that this not happen when one wishes for it. It all depends on conditions and these conditions are also beyond control. By listening and study of the Buddha's teachings there will be more understanding of our life, and it is this understanding that can heal you and others. Thus, instead of wishing for the impossible, it is best to develop more understanding. ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125165 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, Op 22-jun-2012, om 17:40 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > ============================ > Exactly, Nina!! When one sees for himself/herself the correctness even > of one aspect of the Dhamma, one's trust will grow. > I remember years ago when I had a colon resection done for what turned > out to be (only) an extreme case of diverticulitis.... At this > time, I recalled the core Dhamma > teaching that the primary cause of suffering is tanha, and I vowed > then and > there NOT to wish for the results to be that the tissue was benign > - NOT to > "hope"!! ...My amazingly unemotional > reaction, were it to be put into words, was "Oh, it's that way and > not the > other." I learned *first-hand* from this the truth of tanha --> > dukkha and that > *not* craving is a fundamental source of mental peace. > From that point on, my confidence in the Dhamma as a whole became > radically stronger, grounded and *real*. When you know for yourself > what is > conducive to peace, you *truly* know and do not just believe. This > is what > builds saddha. The teachings need to be known, recalled, and acted > upon. > -------- > N: When you said to yourself: "Oh, it's that way and not the other.", you realized that whatever happens is conditioned. Nobody can change the result conditioned by kamma. But it can be hard to always apply this truth. It needs firm understanding of kamma and vipaaka. As you said: "The teachings need to be known, recalled, and acted upon." Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125166 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, Op 22-jun-2012, om 18:19 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > The very interesting elements of the chain are not only nama and > rupa , but the sequence of .....contact (passa) - sensation/feeling > (vedana )- urge /thirst (tanha ) - clinging/attachment (upadana) .. > because it becomes clear why disenchantment and dispassion are so > important to realize anatta /detachment and by that break this > chain , which is keeping us wandering (kamma) in this round of > birth and death (samsara). --------- N: I think that it is understanding, pa~n~naa, that leads to disenchantment. Only right understanding of conditioned phenomena can break the chain. Ignorance is the first link, and the opposite, pa~n~naa, can eradicate ignorance. When there is no more ignorance but understanding, there are no more conditions for rebirth. ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125167 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:05 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 3, 3. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (V, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch III, § 1, Knowledge) that the Buddha, while he was staying among the Vajjians at Kotigåma, said to the monks that it is through not understanding the four noble Truths that “we have run on, wandered on, this long, long road, both you and I”. He then said: “But now, monks, the Ariyan truth of dukkha is understood, is penetrated, likewise the Ariyan truth of the arising, the ceasing of dukkha ... is penetrated. Uprooted is the craving to exist, destroyed is the channel to becoming, there is no more coming to be.” We then read the verse: “Who have not really seen the fourfold Ariyan truth A long, long road must wander on through many births. Clear gone is that which leads to birth when these are seen; Torn up the root of dukkha. There is no more becoming.” The Buddha had as a Bodhisatta wandered a long, long road in order to fulfill all the perfections necessary for the attainment of Buddhahood. He had been mindful and developed wisdom in many lives. What was the object of mindfulness? Seeing, colour, hearing, sound, feeling, thinking and all the other realities appearing at the present moment through one of the six doors. After he had been mindful of these realities over and over again and developed right understanding of them he attained enlightenment. For us too the object of mindfulness is seeing, colour, hearing, sound and all the other realities appearing one at a time through the six doors. Only thus paññå can gradually develop. There can be mindfulness of nåma and rúpa which appear now, such as visible object or seeing which appear now. Some people wonder why we have to know realities such as seeing or hearing. They think that the Buddha’s teaching is too common, too ordinary; they believe that the truth must be outside daily life. It does not appeal to them to be mindful of seeing or hearing. All realities which appear now must be known, no matter whether it is seeing, colour or unpleasant feeling about what we see. This is the only way to know ourselves. Speculation about the truth does not lead anywhere. The truth can only be known through mindfulness of what appears now. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125168 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:08 pm Subject: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Kh Sujin: The development of pa~n~naa is a long process, ciira kala bhaavanaa. From the beginning there should be right understanding that this moment is dhamma. This understanding must be firm and then it can condition awareness of the characteristics of naama and ruupa. Realities arise and fall away very rapidly but one should not worry about being too late to be aware of them. When sati of the level of satipa.t.thaana arises a characteristic of a reality appears naturally, just like now. There may be understanding stemming from listening, but it takes a long time until sati begins to be aware. When one begins to listen sati may not arise, but one has to continue to listen and then understanding will grow. Understanding can be accumulated from life to life, and we do not know how many lives it takes before there can be direct awareness and understanding of realities. When sati and pa~n~naa arise there is no lobha that desires to understand, there is detachment. Even when pa~n~naa does not yet clearly know characteristics, one knows the right way. There is only one way: when sati is aware of realities then pa~n~naa can grow. Even when pa~n~naa is weak, one should be aware again and again in accordance with conditions. Everybody likes kusala and hopes for more sati of the level of satipa.t.thaana, but the idea of self should be got rid of and this takes patience and courage. Are we ready to develop satipa.t.thaana in order to get rid of the idea of self? Awareness of characteristics of reality should be very natural and if it is not natural, it does not work. The development of pa~n~naa is a difficult task but when one listens and has more understanding sati can begin to be aware. It is all a matter of detachment, not a matter of clinging. Listening to the Dhamma is light, pleasant, it is not heavy. When one has desire and does not get what one wants, life becomes heavy. When there is very little sati we cannot cause it to arise often, such is life. When we are now seeing normally, what appears through the eyes is a dhamma, a reality that is able to appear. Pa~n~naa is not self, it is sa”nkhaarakkhandha, the khandha of formations. The Buddha spoke about the khandhas in order to remind us that there is no self. Question: how can there be wise attention, yoniso manasikaara? Kh S: You do not have to do anything, this is the task of dhammas. If you listen all the time you will understand the meaning of anattaa, but we keep on forgetting this. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125169 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, you wrote: (The very interesting elements of the chain are not only nama and > rupa , but the sequence of .....contact (passa) - sensation/feeling > (vedana )- urge /thirst (tanha ) - clinging/attachment (upadana) .. > because it becomes clear why disenchantment and dispassion are so > important to realize anatta /detachment and by that break this > chain , which is keeping us wandering (kamma) in this round of > birth and death (samsara). --------- N: I think that it is understanding, pa~n~naa, that leads to disenchantment. Only right understanding of conditioned phenomena can break the chain.Ignorance is the first link, and the opposite, pa~n~naa, can eradicate ignorance. When there is no more ignorance but understanding, there are no more conditions for rebirth. D: yes , the conditions acc. to SN 12,23 snip "...concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)." knowledge and vision of things as they really are ..in other words panna and consequently eradiction of ignorance with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125170 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/23/2012 3:52:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: N: When you said to yourself: "Oh, it's that way and not the other.", you realized that whatever happens is conditioned. Nobody can change the result conditioned by kamma. ------------------------------------------------------------ HCW: No, Nina, what it reflected was an equanimity arising from refusing to hope - such hoping providing no help but, on the contrary, only being a source of distress. But with regard to the idea that the results of kamma cannot be changed, this is not so. Further conditions, including further kamma, CAN modify the not-yet-arising results of kamma. The Buddha certainly taught this. [In my case, had I not had the colon resection, I would have died. Had I hoped for the finding to not be cancer, obsessing on the matter, I would have suffered. My own volitions had consequences that affected the flow of events.] Beyond this matter of modification of kammic result by subsequent conditions including further kamma, if no element of randomness enters into the course of events, but only full determinism, then all religions are utterly pointless. Here is the situation: If at any moment "the die is cast," with all future events fully determined, then the view of fatalism is 100% correct!!! That is exactly what fatalism is about! There is a fundamental dichotomy of possibility with regard to the way things are: Either a) At every point in time, all that will occur from then on is entirely determined by prior conditions (of all sorts), or b) Elements of random occurrence enter essentially into the mix. No third scenario is possible. (I challenge anyone to justify an alternative to these two.) If case "b" is the way things are, as modern quantum theory asserts, then an element of freshness and freedom is introduced into the flow of events, for whenever there is a change in conditions, including random change, future events can be different. If, OTOH, case "a" is the way things are, then fatalism is the rule, and freedom is an illusion par excellence. ------------------------------------------------------------- But it can be hard to always apply this truth. It needs firm understanding of kamma and vipaaka. As you said: "The teachings need to be known, recalled, and acted upon." ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125171 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:42 pm Subject: ps to lukas [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Hiward > But with regard to the idea that the results of kamma cannot be > changed, this is not so. Further conditions, including further kamma, CAN modify > the not-yet-arising results of kamma. The Buddha certainly taught this. [In > my case, had I not had the colon resection, I would have died. Had I hoped > for the finding to not be cancer, obsessing on the matter, I would have > suffered. My own volitions had consequences that affected the flow of > events.] "Your own volitions?" Do you believe you have "your own volitions?" The point is that "your" volitions are impersonal dhammas that arise beyond your control, they are paramattha dhammas performing functions, conditioned by previously arisen dhammas. Fortunately in your case the functioning of the dhammas resulted in the medical procedure . Good for you. All the factors thst led to that decision are anatta. You were born in a situation that led you to be educated in a way that assisted in making that decision an obvious one. Moredhammas performing functions. It was a no-brainer. Lukas and I are talking about drug addiction, something you might not have much experience with. The dhammas involved are entirely diiferent from the ones that led "you" to select the surgery. In any case, nothing but the performing of impersonal dhammas arising beyond the control of anything but the cobditiining force of other impersonal dhammas. Out of "your" hands, obviously. That's pretty obvious. I just knew this would happen if I posted the words "out of your hands" , I thought it would be Rob E, but I knew one of you private enterprise/freedom of choice guys would respond...not interested in that usage of Dhamma, I've got pop psychology for empowerment... Phil p.s Lukas, I think I have said enough, I'm out of here for awhile. Don't worry, I don't have Alzheimers, not yet anyways Phil > Beyond this matter of modification of kammic result by subsequent > conditions including further kamma, if no element of randomness enters into the > course of events, but only full determinism, then all religions are > utterly pointless. Here is the situation: If at any moment "the die is cast," > with all future events fully determined, then the view of fatalism is 100% > correct!!! That is exactly what fatalism is about! There is a fundamental > dichotomy of possibility with regard to the way things are: Either a) At every > point in time, all that will occur from then on is entirely determined by > prior conditions (of all sorts), or b) Elements of random occurrence enter > essentially into the mix. No third scenario is possible. (I challenge anyone > to justify an alternative to these two.) > If case "b" is the way things are, as modern quantum theory asserts, > then an element of freshness and freedom is introduced into the flow of > events, for whenever there is a change in conditions, including random change, > future events can be different. If, OTOH, case "a" is the way things are, > then fatalism is the rule, and freedom is an illusion par excellence. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > But it can be hard to always apply > this truth. It needs firm understanding of kamma and vipaaka. As you > said: "The teachings need to be known, recalled, and acted upon." > > ============================= > With metta, > Howard > > > Seamless Interdependence > > /A change in anything is a change in everything/ > > (Anonymous) > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125172 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:12 am Subject: Re: ps to lukas [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Phil - In a message dated 6/23/2012 9:42:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Dear Hiward > But with regard to the idea that the results of kamma cannot be > changed, this is not so. Further conditions, including further kamma, CAN modify > the not-yet-arising results of kamma. The Buddha certainly taught this. [In > my case, had I not had the colon resection, I would have died. Had I hoped > for the finding to not be cancer, obsessing on the matter, I would have > suffered. My own volitions had consequences that affected the flow of > events.] "Your own volitions?" Do you believe you have "your own volitions?" ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: I expected such a response. Do you not know what I mean by this, Phil? Do you not know the difference between phenomena in what we call your mind stream and those in others? I don't believe you don't understand this. The Buddha spoke of one being an heir to his/her kamma. Was he atta-bound, Phil? Is that way of speaking of his unsatisfactory to you? ----------------------------------------------------- The point is that "your" volitions are impersonal dhammas that arise beyond your control, they are paramattha dhammas performing functions, conditioned by previously arisen dhammas. ------------------------------------------------------ HCW: What do you mean by "control" other than volition and volitional actions that have consequences? If you mean these being fully determinative, then I agree - no "control". If, OTOH, you mean having effect, then I fully disagree with you. ------------------------------------------------------ Fortunately in your case the functioning of the dhammas resulted in the medical procedure . Good for you. All the factors thst led to that decision are anatta. -------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Great word, 'anatta'. But what exactly do you mean? Do you mean that the volition and actions leading to the surgery had no effect, I consider that to be nonsense. If, OTOH, you mean there is no entity, no fixed identity, and no controller to be found within any stream of namas and rupas, then I quite agree. ----------------------------------------------------------- You were born in a situation that led you to be educated in a way that assisted in making that decision an obvious one. Moredhammas performing functions. It was a no-brainer. Lukas and I are talking about drug addiction, something you might not have much experience with. ---------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Everyone has addictions of sorts, and I have been no exception. ---------------------------------------------------------- The dhammas involved are entirely diiferent from the ones that led "you" to select the surgery. In any case, nothing but the performing of impersonal dhammas arising beyond the control of anything but the cobditiining force of other impersonal dhammas. Out of " ;your" hands, obviously. That's pretty obvious. I just knew this would happen if I posted the words "out of your hands" , I thought it would be Rob E, but I knew one of you private enterprise/freedom of choice guys would respond...not interested in that usage of Dhamma, I've got pop psychology for empowerment... Phil p.s Lukas, I think I have said enough, I'm out of here for awhile. Don't worry, I don't have Alzheimers, not yet anyways Phil ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125173 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:51 am Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, > H: Here is the situation: If at any moment "the die is cast," > with all future events fully determined, then the view of fatalism is 100% > correct!!! That is exactly what fatalism is about! There is a fundamental > dichotomy of possibility with regard to the way things are: Either a) At every > point in time, all that will occur from then on is entirely determined by > prior conditions (of all sorts), or b) Elements of random occurrence enter > essentially into the mix. No third scenario is possible. (I challenge anyone > to justify an alternative to these two.) pt: I like challenges :) I have two potential alternatives in fact: 1) a savaka is stuck in samsara and there's no way out regardless of how he fares, life and death, happiness and unhappiness, etc. In that way it can be said that it is all "predetermined" - until a buddha appears in the world that is. So, a buddha, or rather the dhamma that savakas hear from him, is what brings in that element "outside the box" and opens up a different possibility so to speak. Otherwise, a savaka, on his own, has no element of freedom, choice, power, etc, to find a way out of samsara. As in, that's the picture conditions paint without a buddha so to speak. 2) the alternatives you mention, as well as the one I mention, are all essentially a product of the capacity to think. There's also the capacity to understand, such as understanding conditionality in a moment of insight. I imagine such understanding would be nothing like either of the alternatives you and me mention, but I'd think it would probably answer your question on how things get to happen. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125174 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, pt - In a message dated 6/23/2012 10:55:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ptaus1@... writes: Hi Howard, > H: Here is the situation: If at any moment "the die is cast," > with all future events fully determined, then the view of fatalism is 100% > correct!!! That is exactly what fatalism is about! There is a fundamental > dichotomy of possibility with regard to the way things are: Either a) At every > point in time, all that will occur from then on is entirely determined by > prior conditions (of all sorts), or b) Elements of random occurrence enter > essentially into the mix. No third scenario is possible. (I challenge anyone > to justify an alternative to these two.) pt: I like challenges :) -------------------------------------------------- HCW: --------------------------------------------------- I have two potential alternatives in fact: 1) a savaka is stuck in samsara and there's no way out regardless of how he fares, life and death, happiness and unhappiness, etc. In that way it can be said that it is all "predetermined" - until a buddha appears in the world that is. So, a buddha, or rather the dhamma that savakas hear from him, is what brings in that element "outside the box" and opens up a different possibility so to speak. Otherwise, a savaka, on his own, has no element of freedom, choice, power, etc, to find a way out of samsara. As in, that's the picture conditions paint without a buddha so to speak. -------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I don't think that this is an alternative to a and b. Is the asppearance of a buddha in the world fully determined or not? Is it not one more condition, and it occuring due to prior conditions? Is there any element of chance involved at all? If not, we are still well within the fatalistic "a" scenario. Otherwise, we are within the "b" scenario. --------------------------------------------------------- 2) the alternatives you mention, as well as the one I mention, are all essentially a product of the capacity to think. There's also the capacity to understand, such as understanding conditionality in a moment of insight. I imagine such understanding would be nothing like either of the alternatives you and me mention, but I'd think it would probably answer your question on how things get to happen. -------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I don't follow you. Is the capacity to think and to understand fully determined or not? If yes, one is still within "a", but otherwise within "b". ------------------------------------------------------- Best wishes pt ==================================== With metta, Howard P. S. I much appreciate your taking me seriously and discussing the issue rather than defending "a side" or "getting personal". It is a pleasure, pt! :-) Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125175 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:20 am Subject: ps to lukas [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Howard ( and Rob E) I should come clean, and be done with this. I simply dislike you and and Rob E on a personal level, for several reasons, utterly childish on my part. Your incorrect understanding on some points ("This is where I part ways with Abhidhamma" you once declared imperiously and rather abdurdly) and pet theories are par for the course on the internet, there must be something else? The fact that you have numerous lists where you are active ( including your closed membership Kalama group) but we who listen to A Sujin have only this list is another reason, but, bah, whatever, when yoy rejoined the group after delisting you wrote that you would be so quiet that any people who who were wrankled by you (me and ???) wouldn't even know you were there, but that hasn't happened, The wrankling goes on. In any case my connection to Dhamma is weak these days and yours -to your credit - is strong. So good for you and bad for me, carry on. But my volition is to put an end to any exposure to you guys, just not worth the irritation in my juvenile realm... Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125176 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:37 am Subject: Re: ps to lukas [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Phil - In a message dated 6/23/2012 2:20:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Dear Howard ( and Rob E) I should come clean, and be done with this. I simply dislike you and and Rob E on a personal level, for several reasons, utterly childish on my part. -------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Quite ugly, Phil! What an unbelievable statement to make that you "simply dislike" me and Robert on a personal level. Your characterizing this as childish doesn't make it better. Have you learned *nothing* of what the Buddha taught about right speech and kindness? ------------------------------------------------------------ Your incorrect understanding on some points ("This is where I part ways with Abhidhamma" you once declared imperiously and rather abdurdly) and pet theories are par for the course on the internet, there must be something else? The fact that you have numerous lists where you are active ( including your closed membership Kalama group) -------------------------------------------------------------- HCW I am hardly active on any list but this. But keep it up, Phil, and you may succeed in reducing my activity here radically. I have rarely encountered a hater, Phil, and so you bring some freshness into my life! -------------------------------------------------------------- but we who listen to A Sujin have only this list is another reason -------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: You choose what you choose. Don't moan about it! ------------------------------------------------------------- , but, bah, whatever, when yoy rejoined the group after delisting you wrote that you would be so quiet that any people who who were wrankled by you (me and ???) wouldn't even know you were there, but that hasn't happened -------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I've done relatively little posting, but, clearly for you, any posting by me is too much. In any case, I have no reason to apologize to anyone, least of all to someone as mean spirited as you. --------------------------------------------------------------- , The wrankling goes on. In any case my connection to Dhamma is weak these days and yours -to your credit - is strong. So good for you and bad for me, carry on. -------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: In how many directions are you going at the same time, Phil? Do you have multiple personality disorder? --------------------------------------------------------------- But my volition is to put an end to any exposure to you guys, just not worth the irritation in my juvenile realm... Phil ============================== Howard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125177 From: "marycarbone153" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] losing marycarbone153 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Thank you for helping me understand. I'm walking, I'm breathing, I'm seeing, hearing, I'm peaceful. I am also stabbed by a thoughtless cut, I'm now wounded, bleeding, bacteria invades. What do I do for/to the injury? How do I keep more injuries from happening? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Mary, > Op 22-jun-2012, om 20:21 heeft marycarbone153 het volgende geschreven: > > > Just went through a visit and I am feeling sad and abused like a > > hungry ghost. I want my happiness back and would like to be strong > > enough to protect it and still protect myself and my family from pain. > ------ > N: We can learn from such experiences. You are unhappy and you wish > to be happy, but this cannot occur on command. Exactly this is what > the Buddha taught us: thoughts, feelings, material phenomena, they > all arise because of the appropriate conditions and they do not > belong to a self, they are anattaa, non-self. <.....> Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125178 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:49 am Subject: ps to lukas [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear Howard ( and Rob E) > > I should come clean, and be done with this. I simply dislike you and and Rob E on a personal level, for several reasons, utterly childish on my part. Your incorrect understanding on some points ("This is where I part ways with Abhidhamma" you once declared imperiously and rather abdurdly) and pet theories are par for the course on the internet, there must be something else? The fact that you have numerous lists where you are active ( including your closed membership Kalama group) but we who listen to A Sujin have only this list is another reason, but, bah, whatever, when yoy rejoined the group after delisting you wrote that you would be so quiet that any people who who were wrankled by you (me and ???) wouldn't even know you were there, but that hasn't happened, The wrankling goes on. In any case my connection to Dhamma is weak these days and yours -to your credit - is strong. So good for you and bad for me, carry on. But my volition is to put an end to any exposure to you guys, just not worth the irritation in my juvenile realm... It would be nicer for you just to leave or skip our posts without comment if you want to limit your exposure. Your need to make disparaging comments both on the way in and on the way out is indeed overly personal and annoying. You refuse to stop making negative comments about other people here who you don't like, even when they are not talking to you at all and leaving you in peace, which adds up to a form of harassment. You know how to skip a post if it has a name on it you don't want to read, so just do it, and leave me alone. I don't want to hear about whether you like me or not, this isn't a soap opera. I can't speak for Howard, but I will ask you to stop commenting on me. I would like to participate here without being subject to your inappropriate personal negativity. Next time you want to 'come clean,' please keep it to yourself. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125179 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:57 am Subject: ps to lukas [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I just knew this would happen if I posted the words "out of your hands" , > I thought it would be Rob E, but I knew one of you private > enterprise/freedom of choice guys would respond...not interested in that usage of Dhamma, > I've got pop psychology for empowerment... Cut out the nasty personal comments, Phil. I am not a "freedom of choice" guy in any case, if you ever bothered to read a post you would know that. You are using this list to pick a few whipping boys and then harass them with your nasty gibes. Your prejudices and negative personal comments do not belong on this list. You should cut it out or really leave, and come back when you are capable of having a respectful conversation. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125180 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] losing nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Mary, Op 23-jun-2012, om 17:05 heeft marycarbone153 het volgende geschreven: > I'm walking, I'm breathing, I'm seeing, hearing, I'm peaceful. I am > also stabbed by a thoughtless cut, I'm now wounded, bleeding, > bacteria invades. What do I do for/to the injury? How do I keep > more injuries from happening? ------ N: I sympathize, a very difficult situation. I hope you seek medical help. How to prevent this? The deepest cause is kamma that produces result, and in the sutta we read that deeds bring their appropriate results, whether we like it or not. At the same time perhaps you can avoid certain situations? ----- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125181 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, Op 23-jun-2012, om 14:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > No, Nina, what it reflected was an equanimity arising from refusing to > hope - such hoping providing no help but, on the contrary, only > being a > source of distress. ------ N: All right, I got your point. Hoping is a form of lobha, and this brings sorrow. As to kamma and result, perhaps this is a topic for discussion later on? Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125182 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:54 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 3, 4. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, During our pilgrimage we talked about the meaning of the word awareness or mindfulness. Someone thought that while there is seeing, there is always awareness, that is, awareness of what is seen. He thought that when there is hearing, there is always awareness, that is, awareness of what is heard. We should remember that the word awareness as it is used in common language means: experiencing an object. Awareness or sati of the eightfold Path has a very precise meaning: it is a sobhana cetasika (beautiful mental factor) which can arise only with sobhana cittas. When sati is mindful, non-forgetful, of a reality appearing through one of the six doors, the characterstic of that reality can be known. Seeing arises time and again but is that awareness of the eightfold Path? Seeing experiences an object, visible object, but is the experience of visible object the same as “awareness” or mindfulness of visible object? When there is seeing, that is, the experience of what is visible, there is also the reality of visible object, that which appears through the eyes. Visible object and the experience of visible object are two different kinds of realities and their different characteristics can be known when there is mindfulness of them. Sati or mindfulness is again another kind of reality, and it can be aware, for example, of visible object or of the experience of visible object. Sati cannot be mindful of both realities at the same time; it can be mindful of only one reality at a time. It depends on conditions of what reality there is mindfulness. Sati can be mindful of different characteristics appearing one at a time through the different doorways. When visible object appears sati can be mindful of visible object; visible object can be realized as just visible object, a reality that does not know anything. There is no thing or person in the visible object. When the experience of visible object, seeing, appears sati can be mindful of the experience of visible object, a reality different from visible object. When sound appears, sati, not self, can realize sound as only sound. When we think of the sound of a bird or the sound of a piano, the object has changed; it is not sound but a concept or idea we are thinking of. Paññå is able to know precisely the object that appears at the present moment. When sound appears, it can be known as it is: only sound, not “something” or “self”. There is no bird in the sound, no piano in the sound. When hearing appears, hearing can be realized as only hearing, no self who hears. If sati and paññå are not being developed hearing cannot be known as it is, as a reality that is non- self. Thus, we see that sati of the eightfold Path is completely different from “awareness” as it is understood in common language. Awareness in common language simply means experiencing or knowing an object without there being the development of the eightfold Path. -------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125183 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma and result. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, Op 23-jun-2012, om 14:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > But with regard to the idea that the results of kamma cannot be > changed, this is not so. Further conditions, including further > kamma, CAN modify > the not-yet-arising results of kamma. The Buddha certainly taught > this. .... > Beyond this matter of modification of kammic result by subsequent > conditions including further kamma, if no element of randomness > enters into the > course of events, but only full determinism, then all religions are > utterly pointless. Here is the situation: If at any moment "the die > is cast," > with all future events fully determined, then the view of fatalism > is 100% > correct!!! That is exactly what fatalism is about! -------- N: It is a complex matter. As we learnt, for kamma to produce result there are other conditions. Dispeller of Delusion, Ch 16): the place where one lives, the time (like wartime). Upadhi: substratum, one may be born as a slave or as an ugly person, or as a handsome peron. Payoga: failure or success of means: having performed many evil deeds or many good deeds. These have influence on the ripening of kamma to produce vipaaka. I think you were suggesting this, and that is correct. But it is a condition of the past: what has been accumulated. I do not think that it is "in one's own hands'" to try to compensate for evil kamma and to avoid unhappy results. There are other texts explaining that one cannot escape from vipaaka: Dhammapada vs 127: The Expositor (p. 361) illustrates this with examples. A woman drowned a dog, and she could not escape from drowning in midocean. Moggallana who was an arahat could not escape an unhappy result form a former evil deed. When I think of cause and result, I do not believe this is fatalism. It is the dukkha of being in the cycle, and only when there is the end to rebirth there is after the final passing away no more result of kamma. ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125184 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] losing sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Larry & Mary, Just briefly - really great to see you here again, Larry! We often think of you. Mary, welcome to DSG.... hope the Dhamma can provide the solace and understanding needed. Can you tell us a little more about your interest in the Dhamma, where you live and so on? Metta Sarah p.s Mary, pls sign off with your name and make it clear who you are addressing, even if 'all'. >________________________________ > From: Larry Biddinger >When you are sad you are also standing or sitting or lying down, maybe >walking or running. Whatever the posture, it isn't sad. Mary Carbone is >a group effort, not "just sad". This is the meaning of emptiness. Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125185 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/24/2012 3:52:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 23-jun-2012, om 14:58 heeft _upasaka@..._ (mailto:upasaka@...) het volgende geschreven: > No, Nina, what it reflected was an equanimity arising from refusing to > hope - such hoping providing no help but, on the contrary, only > being a > source of distress. ------ N: All right, I got your point. Hoping is a form of lobha, and this brings sorrow. As to kamma and result, perhaps this is a topic for discussion later on? ------------------------------------------------------------ HCW: Of course. Thank you, Nina! :-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard Admirable Friendship "If wanderers who are members of other sects should ask you, 'What, friend, are the prerequisites for the development of the _wings to self-awakening_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html#bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma) ?' you should answer, 'There is the case where a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues. This is the first prerequisite for the development of the wings to self-awakening.'" — _AN 9.1_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.001.than.html) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125186 From: "Prasad Praturi" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:24 pm Subject: Re: Kamma and result. ppraturi Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Howard --- > > But with regard to the idea that the results of kamma cannot be > > changed, this is not so. Further conditions, including further > > kamma, CAN modify > > the not-yet-arising results of kamma. The Buddha certainly taught > > this. .... > N: It is a complex matter. As we learnt, for kamma to produce result > there are other conditions. compensate > for evil kamma and to avoid unhappy results. There are other texts > explaining that one cannot escape from vipaaka: Dhammapada vs 127: > is found that place on earth, where abiding one may escape (the > consequences of) an evil deed.> > The Expositor (p. 361) illustrates this with examples. A woman > drowned a dog, and she could not escape from drowning in midocean. > Moggallana who was an arahat could not escape an unhappy result form > a former evil deed. > When I think of cause and result, > ------ > Nina. > P: Another example is Anglimala... After 999 kilings, he could become Arhath... due to the conditions.. Such as prescence of a Buddha and Buddha Sasana and his ability to realize ultimate reality... These conditions ( or states) inturn ...could be a result of his past accumulations... It is indeed a complex process.. Prasad > Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125187 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma and result. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/24/2012 5:33:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 23-jun-2012, om 14:58 heeft _upasaka@..._ (mailto:upasaka@...) het volgende geschreven: > But with regard to the idea that the results of kamma cannot be > changed, this is not so. Further conditions, including further > kamma, CAN modify > the not-yet-arising results of kamma. The Buddha certainly taught > this. .... > Beyond this matter of modification of kammic result by subsequent > conditions including further kamma, if no element of randomness > enters into the > course of events, but only full determinism, then all religions are > utterly pointless. Here is the situation: If at any moment "the die > is cast," > with all future events fully determined, then the view of fatalism > is 100% > correct!!! That is exactly what fatalism is about! -------- N: It is a complex matter. As we learnt, for kamma to produce result there are other conditions. ---------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes. -------------------------------------------------------- Dispeller of Delusion, Ch 16): the place where one lives, the time (like wartime). Upadhi: substratum, one may be born as a slave or as an ugly person, or as a handsome peron. Payoga: failure or success of means: having performed many evil deeds or many good deeds. These have influence on the ripening of kamma to produce vipaaka. I think you were suggesting this, and that is correct. But it is a condition of the past: what has been accumulated. I do not think that it is "in one's own hands'" to try to compensate for evil kamma and to avoid unhappy results. ------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I don't recall my having initiated the use of that phrase "in one's own hands". I don't like the phrase if it is to be taken in any way other than figuratively. What I *do* maintain with regard to the results of kamma is that "further conditions, including further kamma, CAN modify the not-yet-arising results of kamma." This seems to be what you write above also. The main issue that I was raising, however, is not specifically a matter of kamma and vipaka but is the matter of what constitutes "conditioning," particularly whether it is probabilistic influence or absolute determination. What I was asserting is that if at any point in time the entirety of all that has occurred, all prior mental and physical phenomena at all places and times, fully determines all that will transpire from then on, then this is a fatalism. Either some inherent elements of chance enter into the flow of events, making for a freshness and true novelty and a redirecting of the flow of events, or else lockstep determinism is the ironclad rule. I see no alternative to this duality. -------------------------------------------------------------- There are other texts explaining that one cannot escape from vipaaka: Dhammapada vs 127: ----------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: But, Nina, there are places on the suttas at which the Buddha taught that the results of kamma can be modified by further conditions, including further offsetting kamma. So, what should one do: pick and choose? Perhaps what is so is that vipaka cannot be fully nullified, yet can be modified, redirected, and weakened. (For example, subsequent kusala kamma offsetting prior evil action, whereby that prior evil action does not result in birth in a hell realm but instead in a birth in this realm but under very difficult circumstances.) ------------------------------------------------------------------- The Expositor (p. 361) illustrates this with examples. A woman drowned a dog, and she could not escape from drowning in midocean. Moggallana who was an arahat could not escape an unhappy result form a former evil deed. When I think of cause and result, I do not believe this is fatalism. It is the dukkha of being in the cycle, and only when there is the end to rebirth there is after the final passing away no more result of kamma. ----------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I consider one form of fatalism to be the notion that the entirety of conditions prior to a given moment determines 100% what will transpire from that moment on. --------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Nina. ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125188 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:56 pm Subject: ps to lukas [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil, > I should come clean,... But my volition is to put an end to any exposure to you guys, just not worth the irritation in my juvenile realm... pt: There are many beneficial ways to participate. There's a project I'm trying to get going, and it's possible you might be quite interested in it. Can I email you offlist with details? Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125189 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:06 am Subject: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, > 2) the alternatives you mention, as well as the one I mention, are all > essentially a product of the capacity to think. There's also the capacity to > understand, such as understanding conditionality in a moment of insight. I > imagine such understanding would be nothing like either of the alternatives > you and me mention, but I'd think it would probably answer your question on > how things get to happen. > -------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > I don't follow you. Is the capacity to think and to understand fully > determined or not? If yes, one is still within "a", but otherwise within "b". > ------------------------------------------------------- I guess what I'm saying is that when speaking about conditionality, I don't think the texts address it in terms of fatalism/determinism nor randomness, but just in terms of understanding it now. I'd say that means that the notions of fatalism and randomness just don't apply really when it comes to conditionality. Why not? My guess is because they are thinking about the issue, rather than understanding the issue (as in panna arising right now). Perhaps a comparable situation is when one is trying to think do I exist or do I not exist, whereas understanding conditionality renders both notions inapplicable. I always found "Does not apply" expression in similar suttas quite brilliant. But then, I do love to think about these things... Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125190 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, pt - In a message dated 6/24/2012 10:06:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ptaus1@... writes: Hi Howard, > 2) the alternatives you mention, as well as the one I mention, are all > essentially a product of the capacity to think. There's also the capacity to > understand, such as understanding conditionality in a moment of insight. I > imagine such understanding would be nothing like either of the alternatives > you and me mention, but I'd think it would probably answer your question on > how things get to happen. > -------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > I don't follow you. Is the capacity to think and to understand fully > determined or not? If yes, one is still within "a", but otherwise within "b". > ------------------------------------------------------- I guess what I'm saying is that when speaking about conditionality, I don't think the texts address it in terms of fatalism/determinism nor randomness, but just in terms of understanding it now. ---------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I think that is correct, pt. The Buddha wasn't a theoretician but a pragmatist who emphasized calming and clearing the mind, attending to what arises in the moment, developing insight into reality, and putting an end to suffering. --------------------------------------------------------- I'd say that means that the notions of fatalism and randomness just don't apply really when it comes to conditionality. Why not? My guess is because they are thinking about the issue, rather than understanding the issue (as in panna arising right now). -------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I do think it applies (one way or the other), but only wisdom will ultimately solve the issue in any useful way, not thinking. ------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps a comparable situation is when one is trying to think do I exist or do I not exist, whereas understanding conditionality renders both notions inapplicable. ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: "I exist" and "I do not exist" are both inapplicable because of the "I" presupposition, but conditionality is another matter, I believe. The nature of conditionality itself is just not known by us, and it is not discussed by the Buddha probably because arriving at a conceptual answer simply serves no useful purpose as regards awakening. ------------------------------------------------------- I always found "Does not apply" expression in similar suttas quite brilliant. But then, I do love to think about these things... ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yeah, I think too much also! Thinking, thinking, thinking - a sickness of ours maybe! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- Best wishes pt ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125191 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard and PT, you wrote: PT' always found "Does not apply" expression in similar suttas quite brilliant. But then, I do love to think about these things... ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yeah, I think too much also! Thinking, thinking, thinking - a sickness of ours maybe! ;-) D: maybe that can be cured : replacing thinking by contemplation ;-) with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125192 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Dieter (and pt) - In a message dated 6/24/2012 1:48:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard and PT, you wrote: PT' always found "Does not apply" expression in similar suttas quite brilliant. But then, I do love to think about these things... ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yeah, I think too much also! Thinking, thinking, thinking - a sickness of ours maybe! ;-) D: maybe that can be cured : replacing thinking by contemplation ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: LOL! Yeah, whatever THAT is! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125193 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:02 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert K, ----- >> KH: My argument is with Robert K for his insistence that people - not just dhammas) - are reborn, or that people - not just dhammas – perform kusala and akusala actions. Or that concepts are made of lots and lots of kalapas of rupas (as if kalapas were molecules and rupas were atoms!). >> > RK: Dear Kenh perhaps you could quote me directly. ----- KH: No, I don't keep files on people. But if I had to dig into the distant past I would refer to some posts where (if I remember correctly) you supported the introduction of Creationism and Intelligent Design Theory into school curriculums. You believed evolution theory contradicted the Dhamma. ----------------------- > RK: But anyway lets look at what Nina writes in her profound book on physical phenomena: "Rupas do not arise singly, they arise in units or groups. What we take for our body is composed of many groups or units, consisting each of different kinds of rupa, and the rupas in such a group arise together and fall away together. " ---------------------- KH: That's right: as in the Satipatthana Sutta, a monk who is mindful of the body knows there are really just the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. -------------------------------- > RK: "The unborn being in the womb, for example, needs the right temperature in order to grow. Throughout life the element of heat produces rupas. Nutrition is another factor which produces rupas. When food has been taken by a living being it is assimilated into the body and then nutrition can produce rupas. Some of the groups of rupa of our body are produced by kamma, some by citta, some by temperature and some by nutrition. The four factors which produce the rupas of our body support and consolidate each other and keep this shortlived body going."" > > Do you feel I say something different from Nina? ----------------- KH: Your words are sometimes the same, but Nina believes science and Dhamma are two different things and cannot contradict each other. Therefore, I take her descriptions to be saying, for example, that kalapas of rupas are being conditioned to arise now – at this very moment - rather than to be saying that kalapas (as distinct from molecules) are created by chemical reactions in the stomach. Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125194 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:49 am Subject: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard and Dieter, > PT: always found "Does not apply" expression in similar suttas quite > brilliant. But then, I do love to think about these things... > ---------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Yeah, I think too much also! Thinking, thinking, thinking - a sickness > of ours maybe! ;-) > > D: maybe that can be cured : replacing thinking by contemplation ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > LOL! Yeah, whatever THAT is! :) Good point. Of course, there's certainly something to be said about benefits of pariyatti, but in my case it's just overthinking things. Taking it too far, or, beyond the range - more of those expressions I really like from the texts. Best wishes, pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125195 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:34 am Subject: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Howard and Dieter, > > > PT: always found "Does not apply" expression in similar suttas quite > > brilliant. But then, I do love to think about these things... > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > HCW: > > Yeah, I think too much also! Thinking, thinking, thinking - a sickness > > of ours maybe! ;-) > > > > D: maybe that can be cured : replacing thinking by contemplation ;-) > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > HCW: > > LOL! Yeah, whatever THAT is! > > > :) Good point. Of course, there's certainly something to be said about benefits of pariyatti, but in my case it's just overthinking things. Taking it too far, or, beyond the range - more of those expressions I really like from the texts. I think you have a point, and I think Dieter had a good point too - in my view, contemplation is taking an important concept and staying with it, turning it around, probing it, in order to understand what it represents, as opposed to just jabbering and making stuff up. In other words, the former I think can involve vittakha and vicara, or at least something like them, while the latter is just creating more proliferations. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125196 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobE, > I think you have a point, and I think Dieter had a good point too - in my view, contemplation is taking an important concept and staying with it, turning it around, probing it, in order to understand what it represents, as opposed to just jabbering and making stuff up. In other words, the former I think can involve vittakha and vicara, or at least something like them, while the latter is just creating more proliferations. Contemplation is one of those terms I find hard to pinpoint. Ideally speaking, it would be pariyatti imo, so strictly speaking a kusala citta with panna and a concept of a dhamma as object. Naturally, vitaka and vicara would be kusala then as well. But I can't really tell when's thinking about dhamma for example actually kusala, and my bet is on it being akusala most of the time, what would make vitaka and vicara akusala at the time as well. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125197 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:18 pm Subject: Larry back! jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Larry Great to see you back. Was wondering only the other day what you were up to these days (in Dhamma terms, I mean). Any reflections to share? Hoping you stick around for a while. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Larry Biddinger wrote: > > ... > To DSG: Hi everyone, > > Just stopped in to see what's going on. Nice to see all your imaginary > faces. I'm away for a week, but I'll check in next weekend for any > corrections or explanations ;)) L. > Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125198 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:23 pm Subject: Kenh1 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert K, > > ----- > >> KH: My argument is with Robert K for his insistence that people - not just > dhammas) - are reborn, or that people - not just dhammas – perform kusala and > akusala actions. Or that concepts are made of lots and lots of kalapas of rupas > (as if kalapas were molecules and rupas were atoms!). > >> > > > > RK: Dear Kenh > perhaps you could quote me directly. > ----- > > KH: No, I don't keep files on people. But if I had to dig into the distant past I would refer to some posts where (if I remember correctly) you supported the introduction of Creationism and Intelligent Design Theory into school curriculums. You believed evolution theory contradicted the Dhamma. ++++++++++++ Dear Kenh Don't you think it is fairer and easier to follow if you cite something directly. Regarding your statement that: >KH: My argument is with Robert K for his insistence that people - not just > dhammas) - are reborn, or that people - not just dhammas – perform kusala and > akusala actions."" this is an outright misrepresentation bordering on a lie. _______ But you made this silly paraphrase based on the fact (your remember rightly on this point) that I don't think all of current evoloutionary doctrine is in agreement with the Dhamma . I looked up the discussion we had: ROBERT: Richard Dawkins (Oxford prof., Fellow of the Royal society) Dawkins writes that > in a universe governed by materialistic evolution (as he claims our universe to > be) "some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and > you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice." (1995, pp.132-133). > > And "the universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if > there is at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but > pointless indifference." (quoted in Easterbrook, 1997, p.892). > Biologists/scientists: George Gaylord Simpson: "Man is the result of a > purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind." (1967, > pp.344-345). > > Jacques Monod: "Pure chance, absolutely free but blind, lies at the very root of > the stupendous edifice of evolution...." (Monod, 1972, p.110); and "Man at last > knows that he is alone in the unfeeling immensity of the universe, out of which > he emerged by chance." (p.167) > > As Futuyma explains: "By coupling undirected, purposeless variation to the > blind, uncaring process of natural selection, Darwin made theological or > spiritual explanations of the life processes superfluous. Darwin's theory of > evolution was a crucial plank in the platform of mechanism and materialism of > much of science, in short what has since been the stage of most Western > thought." (Futuyma, 1986, p.2). __________ You reply to this - mainly directed at my quotes from Richard dawkins, who you admire: . RK: > Dawkins ,when he writes about a world of senseless injustise(the human and animal realm) according to you has waht type of citta? > --------------------- > Kenh: If he writes the way he does in a genuine attempt at helping people, >then there >must be some kusala cittas involved. +++++++++++++ I stated in that thread that creationists have clear wrong view (belief in a creator GOd). My point is that the evoloution bioligists like Dawkins have a different extreme wrong view (they think it all happens due to chance- no kamma etc). Thus I could see any reason to preference either view . I do not see how Dawkins is having kusala citta when he writes: in a universe governed by materialistic evolution (as he claims our universe to > be) "some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and > you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice." (1995, pp.132-133). robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125199 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (and pt) Butting in if I may. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobE, > > > I think you have a point, and I think Dieter had a good point too - in my view, contemplation is taking an important concept and staying with it, turning it around, probing it, in order to understand what it represents, as opposed to just jabbering and making stuff up. In other words, the former I think can involve vittakha and vicara, or at least something like them, while the latter is just creating more proliferations. > > > pt: Contemplation is one of those terms I find hard to pinpoint. Ideally speaking, it would be pariyatti imo, so strictly speaking a kusala citta with panna and a concept of a dhamma as object. Naturally, vitaka and vicara would be kusala then as well. But I can't really tell when's thinking about dhamma for example actually kusala, and my bet is on it being akusala most of the time, what would make vitaka and vicara akusala at the time as well. > =============== J: I agree with pt here. For thinking about a concept to be kusala (including "turning it around, probing it, in order to understand what it represents"), there must probably be some level of understanding (unless it's thinking in connection with dana or sila). And of course the object must be one that can usefully be reflected on. What kind of objects would you see as being 'important objects' in this context? Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125200 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:42 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK and KenH Aside from the (largely hypothetical) question of whether there can be kusala citta involved with an expression of wrong view ("Eat up your greens or there'll be no Father Christmas for you this year": )), I don't see a clear Dhamma issue identified in this discussion as yet. Perhaps one of you could formulate exactly what is the issue being discussed, so others can join in too? Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Robert K, > > > > ----- > > >> KH: My argument is with Robert K for his insistence that people - not just > > dhammas) - are reborn, or that people - not just dhammas – perform kusala and > > akusala actions. Or that concepts are made of lots and lots of kalapas of rupas > > (as if kalapas were molecules and rupas were atoms!). > > >> > > > > > > > RK: Dear Kenh > > perhaps you could quote me directly. > > ----- > > > > KH: No, I don't keep files on people. But if I had to dig into the distant past I would refer to some posts where (if I remember correctly) you supported the introduction of Creationism and Intelligent Design Theory into school curriculums. You believed evolution theory contradicted the Dhamma. > ++++++++++++ > Dear Kenh > Don't you think it is fairer and easier to follow if you cite something directly. Regarding your statement that: > > >KH: My argument is with Robert K for his insistence that people - not just > > dhammas) - are reborn, or that people - not just dhammas – perform kusala and > > akusala actions."" > > this is an outright misrepresentation bordering on a lie. > _______ > But you made this silly paraphrase based on the fact (your remember rightly on this point) that I don't think all of current evoloutionary doctrine is in agreement with the Dhamma . > I looked up the discussion we had: > > ROBERT: Richard Dawkins (Oxford prof., Fellow of the Royal society) Dawkins writes > that > > in a universe governed by materialistic evolution (as he claims our universe > to > > be) "some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, > and > > you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice." (1995, > pp.132-133). > > > > And "the universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if > > there is at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but > > pointless indifference." (quoted in Easterbrook, 1997, p.892). > > > > Biologists/scientists: George Gaylord Simpson: "Man is the result of a > > purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind." (1967, > > pp.344-345). > > > > Jacques Monod: "Pure chance, absolutely free but blind, lies at the very root > of > > the stupendous edifice of evolution...." (Monod, 1972, p.110); and "Man at > last > > knows that he is alone in the unfeeling immensity of the universe, out of > which > > he emerged by chance." (p.167) > > > > As Futuyma explains: "By coupling undirected, purposeless variation to the > > blind, uncaring process of natural selection, Darwin made theological or > > spiritual explanations of the life processes superfluous. Darwin's theory of > > evolution was a crucial plank in the platform of mechanism and materialism of > > much of science, in short what has since been the stage of most Western > > thought." (Futuyma, 1986, p.2). > __________ > You reply to this - mainly directed at my quotes from Richard dawkins, who you admire: > . > > RK: > Dawkins ,when he writes about a world of senseless injustise(the human > and animal realm) according to you has waht type of citta? > > --------------------- > > > Kenh: > If he writes the way he does in a genuine attempt at helping people, >then there > >must be some kusala cittas involved. > +++++++++++++ > > > > I stated in that thread that creationists have clear wrong view (belief in a creator GOd). My point is that the evoloution bioligists like Dawkins have a different extreme wrong view (they think it all happens due to chance- no kamma etc). > Thus I could see any reason to preference either view . > I do not see how Dawkins is having kusala citta when he writes: > in a universe governed by materialistic evolution (as he claims our universe > to > > be) "some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, > and > > you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice." (1995, > pp.132-133). > robert > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125201 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:41 pm Subject: KENH2 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > > Do you feel I say something different from Nina? > ----------------- > > KH: Your words are sometimes the same, but Nina believes science and Dhamma are two different things and cannot contradict each other. Therefore, I take her descriptions to be saying, for example, that kalapas of rupas are being conditioned to arise now – at this very moment - rather than to be saying that kalapas (as distinct from molecules) are created by chemical reactions in the stomach. > > Ken H > ++++++++++++ Dear Kenh in fact Nina has said on several occasions that she likes my writing about science and Dhamma. Now Nina is famously kind and she would never say she didn't like them, however I am pretty confident my interpretation of Dhamma aligns very, very closely with Nina's, although her understanding runs deeper of course. ++++++++ You write that: Even though Nina and Sarah have said some things about the heart (for example) and about sense rupas being located all over the body, I have no argument with them. I believe they are saying those things just to give a better understanding of the dhammas we are studying. My argument is with Robert K" _++++++++++++ let us go back to the heart base. You didn't agree with my explanations of heart base and feel that what Nina and sarah said was in agreement with you. I think you are wrong. I am sure nina and sarah both believe the heart base really is exactly as described in the visuddhimagga (even though they can't know this directly with insight (yet). What puzzles (amazes) me is your insistence that they see it the same way you do. can you clarify? What is different from their explanation and mine (please quote us if you can to make the points cleaR) ROBERT Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125202 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:53 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email dEAR jON here is one that everyone can come in on: Question: identify any of these following quotes as expression of right view or wrong view. 1.God made the world. 2.God controls the world. 3.Humans exist in absolute reality. 4.Human is a designation for the changing elements that do exist momentarily. 5.Richard Dawkins writes that in a universe governed by materialistic evolution (as he claims our universe to be) "some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice." (1995, pp.132-133). robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi RobK and KenH > > Aside from the (largely hypothetical) question of whether there can be kusala citta involved with an expression of wrong view ("Eat up your greens or there'll be no Father Christmas for you this year": )), I don't see a clear Dhamma issue identified in this discussion as yet. Perhaps one of you could formulate exactly what is the issue being discussed, so others can join in too? > > Jon > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Robert K, > > > > > > ----- > > > >> KH: My argument is with Robert K for his insistence that people - not just > > > dhammas) - are reborn, or that people - not just dhammas – perform kusala and > > > akusala actions. Or that concepts are made of lots and lots of kalapas of rupas > > > (as if kalapas were molecules and rupas were atoms!). > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > RK: Dear Kenh > > > perhaps you could quote me directly. > > > ----- > > > > > > KH: No, I don't keep files on people. But if I had to dig into the distant past I would refer to some posts where (if I remember correctly) you supported the introduction of Creationism and Intelligent Design Theory into school curriculums. You believed evolution theory contradicted the Dhamma. > > ++++++++++++ > > Dear Kenh > > Don't you think it is fairer and easier to follow if you cite something directly. Regarding your statement that: > > > > >KH: My argument is with Robert K for his insistence that people - not just > > > dhammas) - are reborn, or that people - not just dhammas – perform kusala and > > > akusala actions."" > > > > this is an outright misrepresentation bordering on a lie. > > _______ > > But you made this silly paraphrase based on the fact (your remember rightly on this point) that I don't think all of current evoloutionary doctrine is in agreement with the Dhamma . > > I looked up the discussion we had: > > > > ROBERT: Richard Dawkins (Oxford prof., Fellow of the Royal society) Dawkins writes > > that > > > in a universe governed by materialistic evolution (as he claims our universe > > to > > > be) "some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, > > and > > > you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice." (1995, > > pp.132-133). > > > > > > And "the universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if > > > there is at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but > > > pointless indifference." (quoted in Easterbrook, 1997, p.892). > > > > > > > Biologists/scientists: George Gaylord Simpson: "Man is the result of a > > > purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind." (1967, > > > pp.344-345). > > > > > > Jacques Monod: "Pure chance, absolutely free but blind, lies at the very root > > of > > > the stupendous edifice of evolution...." (Monod, 1972, p.110); and "Man at > > last > > > knows that he is alone in the unfeeling immensity of the universe, out of > > which > > > he emerged by chance." (p.167) > > > > > > As Futuyma explains: "By coupling undirected, purposeless variation to the > > > blind, uncaring process of natural selection, Darwin made theological or > > > spiritual explanations of the life processes superfluous. Darwin's theory of > > > evolution was a crucial plank in the platform of mechanism and materialism of > > > much of science, in short what has since been the stage of most Western > > > thought." (Futuyma, 1986, p.2). > > __________ > > You reply to this - mainly directed at my quotes from Richard dawkins, who you admire: > > . > > > > RK: > Dawkins ,when he writes about a world of senseless injustise(the human > > and animal realm) according to you has waht type of citta? > > > --------------------- > > > > > Kenh: > > If he writes the way he does in a genuine attempt at helping people, >then there > > >must be some kusala cittas involved. > > +++++++++++++ > > > > > > > > I stated in that thread that creationists have clear wrong view (belief in a creator GOd). My point is that the evoloution bioligists like Dawkins have a different extreme wrong view (they think it all happens due to chance- no kamma etc). > > Thus I could see any reason to preference either view . > > I do not see how Dawkins is having kusala citta when he writes: > > in a universe governed by materialistic evolution (as he claims our universe > > to > > > be) "some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, > > and > > > you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice." (1995, > > pp.132-133). > > robert > > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125203 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:02 pm Subject: kenh3 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > > > > > > Do you feel I say something different from Nina? > > ----------------- > > > > KH: Your words are sometimes the same, but Nina believes science and Dhamma are two different things and cannot contradict each other. Therefore, I take her descriptions to be saying, for example, that kalapas of rupas are being conditioned to arise now – at this very moment - rather than to be saying that kalapas (as distinct from molecules) are created by chemical reactions in the stomach. > ++++++++== Dear Kenh this is another disingenuous post. Are you implying that I said kalapas are created by chemical reactions? Where do you get such an idea.. please try to cite what I write. Also please cite where Nina writes: 'science and Dhamma ... cannot contradict each other"? robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125204 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:17 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 3, 5. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Because of ignorance and wrong view we have accumulated for so long it is difficult to know precisely which object appears at the present moment. We have doubts at which moment nåma presents itself and at which moment rúpa. “We” shall never know, only paññå will know when it is developed more. We may also doubt the usefulness of knowing realities such as seeing, visible object, hearing or sound. When doubt arises we should not be afraid of it or try to push it away. It is so fortunate that the Buddha taught us the way to know all kinds of phenomena. Doubt is a reality that should be known as it is: not self but only a kind of nåma arising because of conditions. Right at the moment of awareness the value of sati can be proved. When phenomena are understood as different elements, as nåma and rúpa, the clinging to the concept of self will eventually become less. Whereas, when we think of a “whole”, such as “my person”, “I see”, “I hear”, “I doubt”, there is no detachment from the concept of self. Doubt about the value of the development of the Path will gradually be eliminated when paññå becomes keener and it knows more precisely the object that presents itself. The more paññå develops the more can one prove to oneself the benefit of the Path in one’s life. We read in the “Dialogues of the Buddha” (II, 19, “Mahå-Govinda Sutta”) that Sakka, the ruler of the devas, in front of the “devas of Thirtythree”, praised eight qualities of the Buddha. One of these was the following: “Crossed, too, by that Exalted One has been the sea of doubt, gone by for him is all question of the ‘how’ and ‘why’, accomplished for him is every purpose with respect to his high resolve and the ancient rule of right. A teacher who has attained thus far, of this kind, of this character, we find not, whether we survey the past, or whether we survey the present, save only that Exalted One.” ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125205 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobE, > > > I think you have a point, and I think Dieter had a good point too - in my view, contemplation is taking an important concept and staying with it, turning it around, probing it, in order to understand what it represents, as opposed to just jabbering and making stuff up. In other words, the former I think can involve vittakha and vicara, or at least something like them, while the latter is just creating more proliferations. > > > Contemplation is one of those terms I find hard to pinpoint. Ideally speaking, it would be pariyatti imo, so strictly speaking a kusala citta with panna and a concept of a dhamma as object. Naturally, vitaka and vicara would be kusala then as well. But I can't really tell when's thinking about dhamma for example actually kusala, and my bet is on it being akusala most of the time, what would make vitaka and vicara akusala at the time as well. That is a good point too. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125206 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobE, pt, and Howard , you wrote: I think you have a point, and I think Dieter had a good point too - in my view, contemplation is taking an important concept and staying with it, turning it around, probing it, in order to understand what it represents, as opposed to just jabbering and making stuff up. In other words, the former I think can involve vittakha and vicara, or at least something like them, while the latter is just creating more proliferations. D: yes, that I had in mind in distinction from the -usually constant- inner monologue ("In the Zen tradition, there is the phrase "Nen nen ju shin ki" which means something like "Thought following thought"), pt: Contemplation is one of those terms I find hard to pinpoint. Ideally speaking, it would be pariyatti imo, so strictly speaking a kusala citta with panna and a concept of a dhamma as object. Naturally, vitaka and vicara would be kusala then as well. But I can't really tell when's thinking about dhamma for example actually kusala, and my bet is on it being akusala most of the time, what would make vitaka and vicara akusala at the time as well. D: pinpointing .. PTS: Anupassanā (f.) [abstr. of anupassati, cf. Sk. anudarśana] looking at, viewing, contemplating, consideration, realisation S v.178 sq., Sn p. 140; Ps i.10, 20, 96; ii.37, 41 sq., 67 sq.; Vbh 194. Anupassin (-- ˚) (adj.) [fr. anupassati] viewing, observing, realising S ii.84 sq., v.294 sq., 311 sq., 345, Dh 7, 253; Sn 255, 728; Ps i.191 sq.; Vbh 193 sq., 236; Sdhp 411. Anupassati [anu + passati] to look at, contemplate, observe Sn 477; Ps i.57, 187; Sn A 505. Buddh.Dict. Anupassanā: Contemplation, deep reflection, profound consideration: The 4 fold: see: satipatthana. The 18 chief insights of vipassana The 7 fold: The seven contemplations: 1: Contemplating constructions as impermanent, one leaves behind the perception of permanence. 2: Contemplating them as painful, one leaves behind the perception of happiness. 3: Contemplating them as not self, one leaves behind the perception of ownership. 4: Becoming disillusioned, one leaves behind delighting. 5: Causing fading away of lust, one leaves behind greed. 6: Causing ceasing, one leaves behind creating. 7: Relinquishing, one leaves behind clinging. Pts.M. I, p. 58. - See also Vis.M XXI, 43; XXII, 114. with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125207 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma and result. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard (pt, Prasad), Op 24-jun-2012, om 14:10 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > But with regard to the idea that the results of kamma cannot be > > changed, this is not so. Further conditions, including further > > kamma, CAN modify > > the not-yet-arising results of kamma. The Buddha certainly taught > > this. .... > -------- N: It would interest me to have a sutta text, if you can find it? Prasad gave the example of Angulimala, which is very good. Result of kamma, this is rebirth-consciousness and also each moment of an experience through one of the senses. This is very short and falls away immediately. Mostly we think of situations, like medical cases, but that is more the story of kamma and vipaaka. What is the reality of vipaaka, the momentary result? Hard to find out. I remember that Kh Sujin discussed cancer and the associations people have with this word. I get upset when hearing this word. She spoke about someone who could eat everything and did not suffer much. She would bring the issue back to sense impressions at this moment. This is right, vipaakacitta is just one moment. We are misled by words and terms we think about for a long, long time. Someone who has developed understanding and attained the state of sotaapanna does not have an unhappy rebirth and this is also an example that by developed understanding there are no more conditions for this form of result. I like your discussion with pt, and I also think that the whole matter of fatalism or determinism does not apply at all. --------------------------- Quoting some of your discussion: pt: My guess is because they are thinking about the issue, rather than understanding the issue (as in panna arising right now). -------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I do think it applies (one way or the other), but only wisdom will ultimately solve the issue in any useful way, not thinking.... ----- N: Quite so, well said. ------ HCW: Yeah, I think too much also! Thinking, thinking, thinking - a sickness of ours maybe! ;-) ------- N: Yeah, yeah, so true. I do too, a good reminder. Just this morning on a Thai recording in Rathbury: We keep on thinking stories of feelings, events, but the citta that thinks falls away immediately, and there isn't a story anymore. We should know: thinking is not self, it is not self, this is the core of the teachings. We have to understand this moment. ------------------------------------------------------- > N: There are other texts > explaining that one cannot escape from vipaaka: Dhammapada vs 127: > is found that place on earth, where abiding one may escape (the > consequences of) an evil deed.> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > But, Nina, there are places on the suttas at which the Buddha taught > that the results of kamma can be modified by further conditions, > including > further offsetting kamma. So, what should one do: pick and choose? > ------ N: No contradictions, one text stresses one aspect and another text stresses another aspect. I do not have any problem with that. What I also consider: kamma and vipaaka is one of the unthinkables, it is the field of Buddhas. We cannot point to this kamma that brings that result. We are unable to understand much about it. Even when kusala kamma with understanding can avert the result of akusala kamma, even that is conditioned and there is not "us" who can do anything. It is as you say: Very good! Whatever happens, it is by conditions. --------- > Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125208 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma and result. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Nina (and pt & Prasad) - In a message dated 6/25/2012 4:24:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard (pt, Prasad), Op 24-jun-2012, om 14:10 heeft _upasaka@..._ (mailto:upasaka@...) het volgende geschreven: > > > But with regard to the idea that the results of kamma cannot be > > changed, this is not so. Further conditions, including further > > kamma, CAN modify > > the not-yet-arising results of kamma. The Buddha certainly taught > > this. .... > -------- N: It would interest me to have a sutta text, if you can find it? ---------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Not very much yet, but I am searching. A somewhat relevant article with some sutta references is Ven Nyanaponika's at _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/kammafruit.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/kammafruit.html) The sutta MN 135 gives a lot of examples of the rebirth-destination-result of one kamma being (appropriately) offset by other kamma. ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125209 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:10 pm Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Dieter, > D: pinpointing .. > > The 4 fold: see: satipatthana. > > The 18 chief insights of vipassana Thanks for the definitions. Yes, a moment of satipatthana happening would be nice. Regarding thinking and inner monologue, my take is that satipatthana can happen in the midst of thinking, and, that stopping the inner monologue for some time doesn't mean that there's satipatthana happening instead, nor kusala for that matter. Though it usually does feel very nice when the inner monologue is suppressed for a while, and in fact, I find the longer it is suppressed, the better it feels. But then I'm not so sure this is kusala at all. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125210 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi pt, you wrote: Thanks for the definitions. Yes, a moment of satipatthana happening would be nice. Regarding thinking and inner monologue, my take is that satipatthana can happen in the midst of thinking, and, that stopping the inner monologue for some time doesn't mean that there's satipatthana happening instead, nor kusala for that matter. Though it usually does feel very nice when the inner monologue is suppressed for a while, and in fact, I find the longer it is suppressed, the better it feels. But then I'm not so sure this is kusala at all. D: suppressing acc. to my experience isn't the best solution .. better to let the present thought phasing out before the next association is taken up (remember the simile of the monkey jumping from branch to branch ) which of course needs at least some mindfulness. An inner 'OK,Ok' towards the momentary sequence of thought may help to avoid a 'discord' which may happen when one is aruptly blocking a certain stream of associations.... with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125211 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:21 am Subject: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Dieter, > D: better to let the present thought phasing out before the next association is taken up > (remember the simile of the monkey jumping from branch to branch ) which of course needs at least some mindfulness. I think it is precisely that which I call "suppression". I mean, if I actually try to willfully suppress thinking, it doesn't work. But if I "let the thought phase out" with some "mindfulness", it stops. And I call it "suppressed" because this "mindfulness" knows it as such, hence that's where the attention is (that's what it attends to), and hence attention cannot attend to something else. However, I also prefer to call such "mindfulness" - strong concentration in fact, because I don't think this concentration is necessarily kusala concentration, whereas mindfulness by theravadin definition can only be kusala. So, I find there's a very strong possibility of mixing up concentration and mindfulness. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125212 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:04 am Subject: To Phil - an Apology [Re: ps to lukas [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was ;;;] upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Phil - There are a few things I wrote to you for which I want to apologize. (I quote only the relevant items, excising the rest). I insert my comments into quoted material within double square brackets: In a message dated 6/23/2012 2:37:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka@... writes: Hi, Phil - In a message dated 6/23/2012 2:20:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: -------------------------------------------------------------- HCW I am hardly active on any list but this. But keep it up, Phil, and you may succeed in reducing my activity here radically. [[I lashed out in anger here, which I regret and for which I hope for your forgiveness.]] I have rarely encountered a hater, Phil, and so you bring some freshness into my life! [[Again, I apologize - this time for anger-induced sarcasm]] -------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I've done relatively little posting, but, clearly for you, any posting by me is too much. In any case, I have no reason to apologize to anyone, least of all to someone as mean spirited as you. [[Your posting was unkind, but I was wrong to characterize YOU as mean spirited, and I apologize for this.]] --------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: In how many directions are you going at the same time, Phil? Do you have multiple personality disorder? [[Again, this was snide sarcasm on my part. Not nice, and I'm very sorry for it.]] --------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, I apologize for ending my prior post to you with a simple "Howard". I DO wish you well, Phil, and I apologize for all coldness expressed in my last post to you. I do hope you can accept my apologies, but if not, then so it is. ================================== With metta, Howard P. S. I expect and deserve no praise for this post. It resulted at least as much from my desire to lessen my own suffering (from regret and conscience) as from compassion. /Do no harm, do good, and purify the mind/ (The Buddha) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125213 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi pt, thanks for the feedback... good issue to discuss. Let us talk first in conventional terms before coming to Abhidhamma. you wrote; I think it is precisely that which I call "suppression". I mean, if I actually try to willfully suppress thinking, it doesn't work. D:Suppression -just to get the meaning correctly: EtymDict. : 'late 14c., "to put down by force or authority," from L. suppressus, pp. of supprimere "press down, stop, check, stifle," For example one can say 'stop!' , e.g. ordering oneself 'to turn into a pillar of salt ' , an arupt pausing of activity which interrupts the mind stream too, the length of the pause ('monkey resting on a branch') is depending on concentration. However it doesn't work for long. pt; But if I "let the thought phase out" with some "mindfulness", it stops. D: it stops after phasing out , doesn't it? pt: And I call it "suppressed" because this "mindfulness" knows it as such, hence that's where the attention is (that's what it attends to), and hence attention cannot attend to something else. D: 'suppress' indicates force .. but ' let the thought phase out' means 'let go' , so the term ' suppression' doesn't really fit. In our daily routine we are used to act rather automatically, so the attention is scattered into numerous aspects. E.g . driving a car while talking to a friend and listening with half an ear to the radio,etc.. lot of routine .. Mindfulness or sati means - we possibly agree - the focus on a certain object and for that we need to collect the spreaded attention by letting go of certain intentions and support the focus we want to observe respectively contemplate about. Not seldom there are competing intentions ... hence my suggestion of Ok.Ok , so to say 'to pacify the losers ' pt:However, I also prefer to call such "mindfulness" - strong concentration in fact, because I don't think this concentration is necessarily kusala concentration, whereas mindfulness by theravadin definition can only be kusala. So, I find there's a very strong possibility of mixing up concentration and mindfulness. D: yes, mindfulness belongs to the cetasikas of the Beautiful Mental Factors, whereas strong concentration - one pointedness -is included in the cetasikas of the Ethically Variable Factors. I think we may avoid a mixture when we see the difference of samma sati which means to know, to be attentive what is going on now ( within the 4 frames) in distinction from samma samadhi where strong concentration is used for absorption of the senses media (to learn what is beyond..) with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125214 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:09 am Subject: Re: Kamma and result. glenjohnann Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello Nina and all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > Just this morning on a Thai recording in Rathbury: > > We keep on thinking stories of feelings, events, but the citta that > thinks falls away immediately, and there isn't a story anymore. We > should know: thinking is not self, it is not self, this is the core > of the teachings. We have to understand this moment. A. I find this very helpful. I often think of visual object, seeing, hearing etc. as being one moment of citta arising and falling away, but seldom think of thinking as a moment of citta that falls away immediately - there is no story any more; no citta which thinks, no story. It is easy to think, "well, this is just thinking", but not so usual to think of a moment of thinking that arises and falls away just as a moment of seeing. When we speak of the six senses, although thinking is among them, it's the one from which the stories proliferate. Not so easy, I find, to understand it as just a moment of citta arising and falling away because of conditions. Too easy to take the story as something real. So, as always, best to develop the understanding that knows each reality as it is. Thank you, Nina, for posting this for us. Ann Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125215 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:10 am Subject: Re: kenh3 kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert K, -------------- >> KH: My argument is with Robert K for his insistence that people - not just > dhammas) - are reborn, or that people - not just dhammas – perform kusala and > akusala actions."" > RK: this is an outright misrepresentation bordering on a lie. --------------- KH: I am glad to hear it was a misrepresentation, albeit an accidental one. When I say "there are only dhammas" you accuse me of mindless oversimplification, and you refer to passages in the Tipitaka where it is said (for example) that frogs are reborn. What am I to make of that? I can only assume you are saying there is more to ultimate reality than "only dhammas." Instead of explaining exactly what that something more might be, however, you simply ask for my interpretations of the passages you quote. Then, when I interpret them to be saying only dhammas (not frogs) are conditioned by kamma, you accuse me of misrepresenting you. ---------------- <. . .> >> KH: Therefore, I take her descriptions to be saying, for example, that kalapas of rupas are being conditioned to arise now – at this very moment - rather than to be saying that kalapas (as distinct from molecules) are created by chemical reactions in the stomach. > ++++++++== Dear Kenh > RK: this is another disingenuous post. Are you implying that I said kalapas are created by chemical reactions? Where do you get such an idea.. please try to cite what I write. --------------- KH: This is another case in point. When I say only dhammas exist, you say the heart and the body exist. You tell Pt the body is made of kalapas. (I can find that quote if you want me to.) In support of your claim you quote where Nina has written about nutrition giving rise to rupas. How am I to know how you interpret Nina's quote if you won't tell me? You just ask for my interpretation of it. I can only assume you see it as saying that food, when it goes into the stomach, it is converted into rupas. Don't blame me if my assumption is wrong; I am only doing my ingenuous best. Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125216 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:37 am Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: I agree with pt here. For thinking about a concept to be kusala (including "turning it around, probing it, in order to understand what it represents"), there must probably be some level of understanding I think I would agree with that... Although it would seem to me that understanding would develop through such 'probing,' etc., as long as it was kusala. > ...And of course the object must be one that can usefully be reflected on. What kind of objects would you see as being 'important objects' in this context? Well, it's not like I'm an expert at listing kusala objects of contemplation. I would be thinking of any sort of legitimate Dhamma concept or the contemplation of how dhammas behave or their characteristics. That sort of thing, that has the potential to develop pariyatti and develop the path. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125217 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:17 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon, Rob K, Ken H, & all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi RobK and KenH > > Aside from the (largely hypothetical) question of whether there can be kusala citta involved with an expression of wrong view ("Eat up your greens or there'll be no Father Christmas for you this year": )), I don't see a clear Dhamma issue identified in this discussion as yet. Perhaps one of you could formulate exactly what is the issue being discussed, so others can join in too? > > Jon As I see it, the issue is whether there is any relation of what we refer to here as concepts to actual dhammas, or are all conventional perceptions and activities not only distorted but completely fictional with the status of pure hallucinations. As I see it, real activities exist in the world, but they are really arising and falling away rupas, not as we ordinarily conceive of them, and actions such as murder actually do take place, but are really namas and rupas, not solid and lasting realities as we normally perceive them. I think that this is somewhere in the neighborhood of where Rob K. is as well - that when kamma patha is produced by murderous akusala cetana, that there is a real killing that takes place. Real rupas arise, and the death citta is produced for the murdered person, whose current life experience is ended. Ken H. has the view that none of this takes place at all, that murder does not exist and that since people are nothing but fictions, what we see as murder has no relation to dhammas at all. All that causes kamma is the murderous cetana - there is no killing of a "being" that takes place at all. As Rob K. said, less akusala cittas should lead to less murder and other unwholesome actions. Nina said that kusala cittas cannot lead to murder and so there is no contradiction between conventional actions and paramatha dhammas. This shows a relationship between what arises in terms of dhammas, and what happens in conventional life. Ken H. has the position that there is no relation, that if one has right view, it doesn't matter whether beings appear to be murdered, because the person with right view knows that there are no beings to be killed, and therefore there is no kamma in that case. To Ken H., the point of the story of the blind monk and the caterpillars is that since the monk had right view and knew there were actually no caterpillars, it didn't matter if he trampled on them or not - no kamma when one understands that there are no beings to trample. In my view, this is a distortion of the Dhamma. If one willfully kills beings, one generates akusala kamma, even if one knows that ultimately there are no beings. The caterpillars are not real as such, but the cittas and rupas that are produced when 'caterpillars are trampled' are real, and they create suffering for the 'caterpillar's cittas' and kamma for he who does the trampling. The blind man was blameless because he was blind, and thus had no choice and no desire to kill with regard to the caterpillars. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - > > > >> KH: My argument is with Robert K for his insistence that people - not just > > > dhammas) - are reborn, or that people - not just dhammas – perform kusala and > > > akusala actions. Or that concepts are made of lots and lots of kalapas of rupas > > > (as if kalapas were molecules and rupas were atoms!). > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > RK: Dear Kenh > > > perhaps you could quote me directly. > > > ----- > > > > > > KH: No, I don't keep files on people. But if I had to dig into the distant past I would refer to some posts where (if I remember correctly) you supported the introduction of Creationism and Intelligent Design Theory into school curriculums. You believed evolution theory contradicted the Dhamma. > > ++++++++++++ > > Dear Kenh > > Don't you think it is fairer and easier to follow if you cite something directly. Regarding your statement that: > > > > >KH: My argument is with Robert K for his insistence that people - not just > > > dhammas) - are reborn, or that people - not just dhammas – perform kusala and > > > akusala actions."" > > > > this is an outright misrepresentation bordering on a lie. > > _______ > > But you made this silly paraphrase based on the fact (your remember rightly on this point) that I don't think all of current evoloutionary doctrine is in agreement with the Dhamma . > > I looked up the discussion we had: > > > > ROBERT: Richard Dawkins (Oxford prof., Fellow of the Royal society) Dawkins writes > > that > > > in a universe governed by materialistic evolution (as he claims our universe > > to > > > be) "some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, > > and > > > you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice." (1995, > > pp.132-133). > > > > > > And "the universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if > > > there is at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but > > > pointless indifference." (quoted in Easterbrook, 1997, p.892). > > > > > > > Biologists/scientists: George Gaylord Simpson: "Man is the result of a > > > purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind." (1967, > > > pp.344-345). > > > > > > Jacques Monod: "Pure chance, absolutely free but blind, lies at the very root > > of > > > the stupendous edifice of evolution...." (Monod, 1972, p.110); and "Man at > > last > > > knows that he is alone in the unfeeling immensity of the universe, out of > > which > > > he emerged by chance." (p.167) > > > > > > As Futuyma explains: "By coupling undirected, purposeless variation to the > > > blind, uncaring process of natural selection, Darwin made theological or > > > spiritual explanations of the life processes superfluous. Darwin's theory of > > > evolution was a crucial plank in the platform of mechanism and materialism of > > > much of science, in short what has since been the stage of most Western > > > thought." (Futuyma, 1986, p.2). > > __________ > > You reply to this - mainly directed at my quotes from Richard dawkins, who you admire: > > . > > > > RK: > Dawkins ,when he writes about a world of senseless injustise(the human > > and animal realm) according to you has waht type of citta? > > > --------------------- > > > > > Kenh: > > If he writes the way he does in a genuine attempt at helping people, >then there > > >must be some kusala cittas involved. > > +++++++++++++ > > > > > > > > I stated in that thread that creationists have clear wrong view (belief in a creator GOd). My point is that the evoloution bioligists like Dawkins have a different extreme wrong view (they think it all happens due to chance- no kamma etc). > > Thus I could see any reason to preference either view . > > I do not see how Dawkins is having kusala citta when he writes: > > in a universe governed by materialistic evolution (as he claims our universe > > to > > > be) "some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, > > and > > > you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice." (1995, > > pp.132-133). > > robert > > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125218 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Dieter. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > pt: Contemplation is one of those terms I find hard to pinpoint. Ideally speaking, it would be pariyatti imo, so strictly speaking a kusala citta with panna and a concept of a dhamma as object. Naturally, vitaka and vicara would be kusala then as well. But I can't really tell when's thinking about dhamma for example actually kusala, and my bet is on it being akusala most of the time, what would make vitaka and vicara akusala at the time as well. > > > D: pinpointing .. > > PTS: Anupassanā (f.) [abstr. of anupassati, cf. Sk. anudarśana] looking at, viewing, contemplating, consideration, realisation S v.178 sq., Sn p. 140; Ps i.10, 20, 96; ii.37, 41 sq., 67 sq.; Vbh 194. > > Anupassin (-- ˚) (adj.) [fr. anupassati] viewing, observing, realising S ii.84 sq., v.294 sq., 311 sq., 345, Dh 7, 253; Sn 255, 728; Ps i.191 sq.; Vbh 193 sq., 236; Sdhp 411. > > Anupassati [anu + passati] to look at, contemplate, observe Sn 477; Ps i.57, 187; Sn A 505. > > Buddh.Dict. Anupassanā: Contemplation, deep reflection, profound consideration: > > The 4 fold: see: satipatthana. > > The 18 chief insights of vipassana > > The 7 fold: The seven contemplations: > > 1: Contemplating constructions as impermanent, one leaves behind the perception of permanence. 2: Contemplating them as painful, one leaves behind the perception of happiness. 3: Contemplating them as not self, one leaves behind the perception of ownership. 4: Becoming disillusioned, one leaves behind delighting. 5: Causing fading away of lust, one leaves behind greed. 6: Causing ceasing, one leaves behind creating. 7: Relinquishing, one leaves behind clinging. Pts.M. I, p. 58. - See also Vis.M XXI, 43; XXII, 114. I think this is an excellent brief rundown of what is meant in Buddhism by contemplation, and citing the Pali as anupassana so we can look at that as well. "Deep reflection," "profound consideration" are something quite different from the usual quick thinking by proliferation or association. The seven contemplations is also a very useful cite. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125219 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:36 am Subject: Delisting announcement #12 philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear group My recent comments make it clear that it is ¥¥¥really¥¥¥ time for me to be moving along. My only interest in Dhamma is Abhidhamma, really, and I don't have enough understanding/confidence/??? to be able to see why it is a duty (obviously enjoyed perfectly well by others, with benefits to the development of their understanding) to adjust explanation to attempt to satisfy or find common ground with those who see Abhidhamma (understandably) as some kind of late addition without primary authority. Fair enough, but not for me. It's true that I have a personal aversion to you, Howard, and to Rob E, but that obviously is do to the akusala functioning of "my" dhammas rather than something about you that you should mend. I think it would be good if you shut down your private mailing list, however. If you are comfortable here you no longer need that wall to hide behind. It rankles knowing that you guys are able to discuss privately (and I know from my membership there in the past that you are disparaging at times of Dhamma as taught by A Sujin in a way that you are not here) there while students of A Sujin have no private forum of their own in which the word of Abhidhamma is given unquestioned and unquestionable authority in order to create less distraction to its study. I don't think anyone other than me wants that kind of closed forum, pepple seem to enjoy debate. But if it ever someday becomes a reality, please let me know by e-mail as I won't be reading here. Thanks moderators, hoping to see you in Bkk in January - if I get miles from the discount route I am flying this summer! Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125220 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Delisting announcement #12 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Phil & all, Nina, you'll be interested to hear that the elderly swimmer, Bruce, died here (in Manly) recently. We once mentioned how he swam every day with our group in the ocean in spite of his cancer - very patient and brave. On Sunday morning, there was a beautiful sunrise as we all entered the very cold water (mid-Winter) and formed a circle out in the sea to scatter flowers and his ashes as we sang a cheerful farewell ballad he'd selected. His daughter joined us - a letting go.... The point is, Phil, that, as we all know, life is so very short - not worth hanging onto grudges and long stories about how people have behaved. No understanding of dhammas at such times at all. It doesn't matter at all what others believe or don't believe - as in our case, just different moments of conditioned thinking. When there is understanding or metta, no animosity, no disrespect at all. The Dhamma is not for book study and theory, but for direct understanding and for the way we live. If there's a big "disconnect", then it shows it's not sacca ~naa.na - really firm confidence in the Teachings, as I see it. Phil, you've referred to the "private mailing list" before. The problem is only in the "rankles". Anyone can talk privately anytime. A.Sujin is very used to people criticising what she says in public or private and to lots and lots of disparaging comments about the Dhamma as taught by her. Lots and lots of it over the years. She never minds at all - it just reflects a different or lack of understanding of the Teachings by accumulations. No self at all. It would be a good topic to bring up with her in Jan - she'll just point to the problem as being the citta now - the minding, the caring, the attachment, the lack of understanding of seeing and visible object now. Still, understandable if the "rankles" mean you need a break. Look forward to seeing you in Bkk in Jan if not before:-) Metta Sarah p.s Howard & Rob E, maybe best to just drop the "private list" - a real red herring as I see it and nothing to defend/justify at all. >________________________________ > From: philip >My recent comments make it clear that it is >¥¥¥really¥¥¥ time for me to be moving along. My only interest in Dhamma is Abhidhamma, really, and I don't have enough understanding/confidence/??? to be able to see why it is a duty (obviously enjoyed perfectly well by others, with benefits to the development of their understanding) to adjust explanation to attempt to satisfy or find common ground with those who see Abhidhamma (understandably) as some kind of late addition without primary authority. Fair enough, but not for me. Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125221 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Delisting announcement #12 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, Op 26-jun-2012, om 9:15 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > Nina, you'll be interested to hear that the elderly swimmer, Bruce, > died here (in Manly) recently. We once mentioned how he swam every > day with our group in the ocean in spite of his cancer - very > patient and brave. On Sunday morning, there was a beautiful sunrise > as we all entered the very cold water (mid-Winter) and formed a > circle out in the sea to scatter flowers and his ashes as we sang a > cheerful farewell ballad he'd selected. His daughter joined us - a > letting go.... > > The point is, Phil, that, as we all know, life is so very short - > not worth hanging onto grudges and long stories about how people > have behaved. No understanding of dhammas at such times at all. > --- N: This is very touching, a wonderful way of taking leave. I also appreciate your reminders to Phil, useful for all of us. ----- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125222 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and result. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ann, Op 26-jun-2012, om 0:09 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > It is easy to think, "well, this is just thinking", but not so > usual to think of a moment of thinking that arises and falls away > just as a moment of seeing. When we speak of the six senses, > although thinking is among them, it's the one from which the > stories proliferate. Not so easy, I find, to understand it as just > a moment of citta arising and falling away because of conditions. > Too easy to take the story as something real. > > So, as always, best to develop the understanding that knows each > reality as it is. ------ N: Difficult to know the characteristic of thinking, I find that too. But it depends on pa~n~naa, we cannot select. Appreciating your post, Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125223 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:50 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: <. . .> > To Ken H., the point of the story of the blind monk and the caterpillars is that since the monk had right view and knew there were actually no caterpillars, it didn't matter if he trampled on them or not - no kamma when one understands that there are no beings to trample. > > In my view, this is a distortion of the Dhamma. If one willfully kills beings, one generates akusala kamma, even if one knows that ultimately there are no beings. <. . .> ------------ Hi Robert E, I will say it again. There are only dhammas; there are no sentient beings to be killed and no sentient beings to do the killing. Once that truth has been directly and fully penetrated, akusala kamma patha will never again occur. An ariyan monk is someone who has directly penetrated it, isn't he? He is no longer capable of akusala kamma patha. Therefore, if an observer gets the impression that this monk is murdering a sentient being, that observer should think again. The monk can't be doing any such thing: he is not capable of it. If the observer wanted to give a conventional explanation of what had happened he would have to say the monk in one way or another trod on the caterpillars accidentally. He would have to say the caterpillars' kamma was such that they simply had to die violently at that time, even though no one was acting maliciously or negligently towards them. And we know that must be true even though, in the case of an ordinary person, it probably could not be true. An ordinary blind person who had been told there were caterpillars on a path would know perfectly well he was incapable of walking along it without causing death and injury. This monk knew the opposite. There was no way in the world he could cause any sentient being any harm. Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125224 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Delisting announcement #12 upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Phil - In a message dated 6/26/2012 2:38:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Dear group My recent comments make it clear that it is ¥¥¥really¥¥¥ time for me to be moving along. My only interest in Dhamma is Abhidhamma, really, and I don't have enough understanding/confidence/??? to be able to see why it is a duty (obviously enjoyed perfectly well by others, with benefits to the development of their understanding) to adjust explanation to attempt to satisfy or find common ground with those who see Abhidhamma (understandably) as some kind of late addition without primary authority. Fair enough, but not for me. It's true that I have a personal aversion to you, Howard, and to Rob E, but that obviously is do to the akusala functioning of "my" dhammas rather than something about you that you should mend. ----------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Whatever! I hope you do realize the oddity (at least!) of telling people that you personally dislike them, especially when you hold them blameless for that. ---------------------------------------------------------------- I think it would be good if you shut down your private mailing list, however. If you are comfortable here you no longer need that wall to hide behind. --------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: The tiny group you speak of, with only 12 members, only 2 or 3 of whom post, is the Kalama Dhamma list, It's description is the following: It is none of your business that there should exist a very small, barely active, private group of (only somewhat) similarly-minded Buddhists, a group which, BTW, you had been a member of but chose to leave, and a group which I informed Sarah, Jon, and Nina about shortly after it was formed back in January 2009. The KD-list has served as an occasional refuge from unkind attacks, for which I offer no apology, but it is far from being a "hiding place". Those members of KD-list who are also members of DSG speak freely on DSG. They do not hold back here. The DSG is a public list, my very favorite Dhamma list, and very important to me. This does not mean that the KD-list must not exist, and your being "rankled" by it's existence is no one's problem but your own. Your loves and hates are your problems. ------------------------------------------------------------------ It rankles knowing that you guys are able to discuss privately (and I know from my membership there in the past that you are disparaging at times of Dhamma as taught by A Sujin in a way that you are not here) there while students of A Sujin have no private forum of their own in which the word of Abhidhamma is given unquestioned and unquestionable authority in order to create less distraction to its study. I don't think anyone other than me wants that kind of closed forum, pepple seem to enjoy debate. -------------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: It rankles you that we are able to discuss privately??? What rankles you is your problem, no one else's. ANY people have the right to come together privately, if they wish. If it is wished, it is a right of any folks to do so. If it is not wished, then there is no requirement that it be done. In any case, it is no business of yours what others do on their own. You are responsible for yourself, not others. It is bad enough to think one has control over himself/herself let alone to think that one should have control over others. BTW, expressing disagreement with the positions of a teacher, even strong criticism of some of the teachings, is perfectly legitimate. What you do not mention is that there has also been defense of some of the teachings of Khun Sujin, especially by me, on KD-list. It happens that I admire the Zen-like perspective that I have observed in the writings of Ajahn Sujin, but that *also* is nobody's business but mine. What I admire, I admire,and what I do not, I do not. The same holds for others, including Robert Epstein, who happens to have become increasingly admiring of Abhidhamma in recent days. What serves any folks well, serves them well. I salute all folks who consider well and long and find things of value for themselves. Live and let live, Phil!! What happens to be my main criterion for evaluating people is not their held "positions" nor their knowledge nor even their intelligence, but the degree of their goodness, kindness, fairness, and lovingness. It is that, BTW, that has been prominent in keeping me a member of DSG for so long. ----------------------------------------------------------------- But if it ever someday becomes a reality, please let me know by e-mail as I won't be reading here. Thanks moderators, hoping to see you in Bkk in January - if I get miles from the discount route I am flying this summer! Phil ==================================== With metta, Howard Kindness Trumps Cleverness /When I was young, I used to admire intelligent people; as I grow older, I admire kind people./ (Abraham Joshua Heschel) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125225 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kenh1 upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Ken (and Robert) - In a message dated 6/26/2012 5:46:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Robert E, I will say it again. There are only dhammas; there are no sentient beings to be killed and no sentient beings to do the killing. Once that truth has been directly and fully penetrated, akusala kamma patha will never again occur. An ariyan monk is someone who has directly penetrated it, isn't he? He is no longer capable of akusala kamma patha. Therefore, if an observer gets the impression that this monk is murdering a sentient being, that observer should think again. The monk can't be doing any such thing: he is not capable of it. If the observer wanted to give a conventional explanation of what had happened he would have to say the monk in one way or another trod on the caterpillars accidentally. He would have to say the caterpillars' kamma was such that they simply had to die violently at that time, even though no one was acting maliciously or negligently towards them. And we know that must be true even though, in the case of an ordinary person, it probably could not be true. An ordinary blind person who had been told there were caterpillars on a path would know perfectly well he was incapable of walking along it without causing death and injury. This monk knew the opposite. There was no way in the world he could cause any sentient being any harm. ------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Would he not know that his actions would cause pain? ------------------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125226 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:05 am Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #12 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > p.s Howard & Rob E, maybe best to just drop the "private list" - a real red herring as I see it and nothing to defend/justify at all. You mean not to discuss it? I have no problem about that - it's not a secret society or anything, just another discussion forum, so no big deal. I haven't been there lately, and not sure how active it is, but seriously, it's no problem one way or the other. I have two or three groups that I started that are completely inactive, mostly in acting areas - not sure what the fuss is about, other than certain folks' vivid imaginations. Anyway, I did respond to the post in question before reading yours, so that is that, but I don't have a problem with discussing or not discussing anything here down the road, as you think is best. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125227 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:58 am Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #12 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil. Gee whiz, man... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > My recent comments make it clear that it is > ¥¥¥really¥¥¥ time for me to be moving along. My only interest in Dhamma is Abhidhamma, except for confiding all your negative feelings that no one wants to hear and criticizing others continuously. Do you really think you have a strong interest in the Dhamma? Or is your main interest spilling negativity and putting yourself up while you put others down? Since you give so much public advice freely and enjoy sharing all the faults that you see in a few people here who have been scapegoating, I'd like to give you a piece of public advice on your way out - take a look at your own negativity and stop expressing it. Really take a look. You are a negative force in this list and not someone who is contributing to the understanding of Dhamma. It's fine that our leaving, but it would be better if you were to correct your absolutely wrong, negative attitude towards others and stop giving yourself such an easy time about your own aversions. I have never seen someone who was so apt to tell others how horrendous their behavior is, while excusing all of his own. It shows a truly self-centered childish attitude that is the opposite of the Dhamma and the opposite of having any kind of Sangha. > really, and I don't have enough understanding/confidence/??? to be able to see why it is a duty (obviously enjoyed perfectly well by others, with benefits to the development of their understanding) to adjust explanation to attempt to satisfy or find common ground with those who see Abhidhamma (understandably) as some kind of late addition without primary authority. Fair enough, but not for me. No one has ever asked you to adjust your conversations or explanations for anyone else's benefit. If you would just talk about your Dhamma interests - if any - instead of wasting your time gossiping about the people you dislike, you might actually get some benefit out of your interactions. It's ridiculously self-defeating behavior. > It's true that I have a personal aversion to you, Howard, and to Rob E, but that obviously is do to the akusala functioning of "my" dhammas rather than something about you that you should mend. Who cares? Please keep your aversions to yourself unless you are going to analyze them in terms of Dhamma, which would be of some benefit. Again, another Dhamma opportunity lost, because that is not really your focus despite your pretensions. > I think it would be good if you shut down your private mailing list, however. If you are comfortable here you no longer need that wall to hide behind. It rankles knowing that you guys are able to discuss privately (and I know from my membership there in the past that you are disparaging at times of Dhamma as taught by A Sujin in a way that you are not here) there while students of A Sujin have no private forum of their own in which the word of Abhidhamma is given unquestioned and unquestionable authority in order to create less distraction to its study. Excuse me? Since when do you have any say about what other people do on their own time? Many people participate in other lists regarding various Buddhist and other topics, and it has nothing to do with you or anyone else. Personally, I haven't posted to Howard's group lately and I'm not sure about the activity there, but the time spent there was very valuable talking about...you guessed it - detailed Dhamma issues, and sometimes in great depth. You are the only one around here, Phil, who seems continuously interested in making personal comments, personal comparisons and telling other people what to do. It's pretty unhealthy. > I don't think anyone other than me wants that kind of closed forum, people seem to enjoy debate. But if it ever someday becomes a reality, please let me know by e-mail as I won't be reading here. We'll see. > Thanks moderators, hoping to see you in Bkk in January - if I get miles from the discount route I am flying this summer! I seriously do hope you get benefit from your time studying Abhidhamma, and that you stop frittering away your energy on gossip and personal attacks. That would be a big step forward. See you soon - unless you really don't return. In the latter case, hope you work out your personal issues and, seriously, much metta on your path. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125228 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Delisting announcement #12 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ...It happens that I admire the > Zen-like perspective that I have observed in the writings of Ajahn Sujin, > but that *also* is nobody's business but mine. I am glad to see you have noticed that too. I am sometimes surprised by her attention to the moment and the briskness with which she can address it. > What I admire, I admire,and > what I do not, I do not. The same holds for others, including Robert Epstein, > who happens to have become increasingly admiring of Abhidhamma in recent > days. I have...? What's happening to me!? :-) > What happens to be my main criterion for evaluating people is not > their held "positions" nor their knowledge nor even their intelligence, but the > degree of their goodness, kindness, fairness, and lovingness. It is that, > BTW, that has been prominent in keeping me a member of DSG for so long. I think this is really nicely said, and is a great point - that feeling of personal support and caring, which I also feel amongst my dsg friends -- the sense of real Sangha, fellowship -- is equally important on the path as anything we may learn or discuss. I think we should remember that more frequently, so thanks for the reminder! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125229 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:17 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > An ariyan monk is someone who has directly penetrated it, isn't he? He is no longer capable of akusala kamma patha. Therefore, if an observer gets the impression that this monk is murdering a sentient being, that observer should think again. The monk can't be doing any such thing: he is not capable of it. I agree with this - but the point in my view is that you will not see that monk lifting a hand to harm another being, no matter what. The conventional action will not take place. It is not just that one will see that the action is not really harmful because there is no one to harm. Not only will akusala cetana not arise, but the rupas of harming or killing will not occur, and those rupas are not concept, they are real. In my understanding, and in everything the Buddha and commentaries say about kamma patha, kamma patha involves real concrete rupas, it must be physically realized, so when the ariyan monk is no longer capable of akusala kamma patha, those rupas are no longer produced. There will be no 'seeming appearance' of that monk harming a living being for the unenlightened to misinterpret. Do you agree with this? If not, what part of it do you disagree with? > If the observer wanted to give a conventional explanation of what had happened he would have to say the monk in one way or another trod on the caterpillars accidentally. He would have to say the caterpillars' kamma was such that they simply had to die violently at that time, even though no one was acting maliciously or negligently towards them. If a runaway cart kills someone, no one is to blame. If a blind monk walks on a pathway and the caterpillars happen to be there, he is not obligated to stay off the path, but he has no intention to kill, and so there is no kamma. We don't know all the conditions involved, but it may be that this monk had to go down that path in order to stay alive. I've lost reference to the sutta - if you can tell me where to find it or give me its number and its Nikaya, I'll re-read the whole thing. I think that when a physical act takes place - the rupas of killing without any akusala cetana, ie, an accident, or unavoidable incident, there is no akusala kamma. That's the point. If a Buddhist monk is driving down the road and the car goes out of control and kills someone, there is no blame, even though he was driving. > And we know that must be true even though, in the case of an ordinary person, it probably could not be true. An ordinary blind person who had been told there were caterpillars on a path would know perfectly well he was incapable of walking along it without causing death and injury. And yet he may have no choice but to walk that path, and there is no wish to kill, so it is not the same as intentional killing. Even if you are right about the monk being enlightened, there is still a difference in kamma between accidental or incidental killing and intentional killing. They are not the same thing. > This monk knew the opposite. There was no way in the world he could cause any sentient being any harm. If you believe this, then in Buddhist terms there is no problem with stabbing someone if you know they are not really a being [the opposite of all the teachings on ahimsa.] If they are inconveniently in your way on the mountain path and you know they are not really a being, you could push them off the mountain with no kamma and no regret. Do you believe that in paramatha terms this is the way we are meant to view killing from an enlightened standpoint? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125230 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:05 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK [Resending this, as the reply sent yesterday has not come through] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > dEAR jON > here is one that everyone can come in on: > Question: identify any of these following quotes as expression of right view or wrong view. > 1.God made the world. > 2.God controls the world. > 3.Humans exist in absolute reality. > 4.Human is a designation for the changing elements that do exist momentarily. > 5.Richard Dawkins writes that in a universe governed by materialistic evolution (as he claims our universe to be) "some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice." (1995, pp.132-133). > =============== J: As I think you'll agree, there is a difference between (a) a view actually held (by a person) and (b) a statement made (by a person) that appears to reflect a particular view. Statements made do not necessarily reflect views actually held. For example, a scientist who holds the views of a Christian may, having conducted scientific research, put forward 'evidence' that supports or confirms the evolutionist view (a view he does not share). Or a person who has never heard the Dhamma in the present lifetime may, given the choice between theism and atheism, declare a belief in God as being the preferred view of the two (without actually holding that view, due to the development of insight in previous lifetimes). So I don't see any purpose in trying to identify quotes as being indicative of right or wrong view on the part of the speaker/writer. The only worthwhile question is whether or not *a particular view held* is in accordance with the teachings (and on that I would expect that you, KenH and I are mostly in agreement). For example, a held view that: 1. there is a God who made the world, 2. there is a God who controls the world, 3. human beings exist in the absolute sense, or 5. the universe is governed by materialistic evolution, is obviously not in accordance with the teachings. A held view that: 4. 'human being' is a conventional designation for certain changing elements ('dhammas') that exist only momentarily. would seem to be consistent with the teachings. (As regards the observation quoted in your item 5 that there is no rhyme or reason, nor justice, to be seen in the way the world works, I see that as being not so much a view held as a comment on how things appear (to the unenlightened observer) to be.) Jon PS It seems to me that the point under discussion between you and KenH is this: When KenH/RobK says that a person who says such and such does/does not have right view, does this indicate right/wrong view on the part of KenH/RobK? For reasons mentioned above, I doubt that the discussion of such an issue will lead anywhere useful. Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125231 From: mary carbone Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:34 am Subject: thank you to all marycarbone153 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Thanks for helping me in opening up my thoughts on the pain I was experiencing during and after a family visit. I found this on the net, don't know who wrote it --we can, however, be silent, breathe, wait and expect love to emerge---then and only then will we see the best options available for us--Mary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125232 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:59 pm Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Dieter, > D: 'suppress' indicates force .. but ' let the thought phase out' means 'let go' , so the term ' suppression' doesn't really fit. Ok, perhaps using something like "suspended" might be more agreeable. However, my point is that it is concentration (right or wrong) which actually stops verbal thinking and keeps it from reocurring for a period of time. Hence to me it looks like it supresses verbal thinking for a time. But I don't mind calling it something else as long as we agree it is concentration (whether right or wrong) that keeps verbal thinking away. Another intersting subject is what is the object of consciousness at the time when verbal thinking is stopped for a while. > Mindfulness or sati means - we possibly agree - the focus on a certain object and for that we need to collect the spreaded attention by letting go of certain intentions and support the focus we want to observe respectively contemplate about. I think whenever we are talking about focus, it's really about concentration, not mindfulness. > I think we may avoid a mixture when we see the difference of samma sati which means to know, to be attentive what is going on now ( within the 4 frames) > in distinction from samma samadhi where strong concentration is used for absorption of the senses media (to learn what is beyond..) That's cool, though my point was that the confusion is between miccha samadhi and sati - so mindfulness is being confused with wrong concentration at the time when verbal thinking is stopped. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125233 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:53 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > dEAR jON > here is one that everyone can come in on: > Question: identify any of these following quotes as expression of right view or wrong view. > 1.God made the world. > 2.God controls the world. > 3.Humans exist in absolute reality. > 4.Human is a designation for the changing elements that do exist momentarily. > 5.Richard Dawkins writes that in a universe governed by materialistic evolution (as he claims our universe to be) "some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice." (1995, pp.132-133). > =============== J: As I think you'll agree, there is a difference between (a) a view actually held (by a person) and (b) a statement made (by a person) that appears to reflect a particular view. Statements made do not necessarily reflect views actually held. For example, a scientist who holds the views of a Christian may, having conducted objective scientific research, put forward 'evidence' that supports or confirms the evolutionist view (a view he does not share). Or a person who has never heard the Dhamma in the present lifetime may, given the choice between theism and atheism, declare a belief in God as being the preferred view of the two (without actually holding that view, due to the development of insight in previous lifetimes). So I don't see any purpose in trying to identify quotes as being indicative of right or wrong view on the part of the speaker/writer. The only worthwhile question is whether *a particular view held* is or is not in accordance with the teachings (and on that I would expect that you, KenH and I are mostly in agreement). For example, a held view that: 1. there is a God who made the world, 2. there is a God who controls the world, 3. human beings exist in the absolute sense, or 5. the universe is governed by materialistic evolution, is obviously not in accordance with the teachings. A held view that: 4. 'human being' is a conventional designation for certain changing elements ('dhammas') that exist only momentarily, would seem to be consistent with the teachings. As regards the observation quoted in your item 5 that there is no rhyme or reason, nor justice, to be seen in the way the world works, I see that as being not so much a view held as a comment on how things appear to the unenlightened observer to be. Jon PS It seems to me that the point under discussion between you and KenH is this: When KenH/RobK says that a person who says such and such does/does not have right view, does this indicate right/wrong view on the part of KenH/RobK? For reasons mentioned above, I doubt that the discussion of such an issue will lead anywhere useful. Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125234 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:27 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon, Rob K and Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > PS It seems to me that the point under discussion between you and KenH is this: When KenH/RobK says that a person who says such and such does/does not have right view, does this indicate right/wrong view on the part of KenH/RobK? > For reasons mentioned above, I doubt that the discussion of such an issue will lead anywhere useful. I may be missing something, but I don't think that's the issue at stake here. I think the issue, which is indeed the subject of Rob K.'s [and mine if I understand him correctly] and Ken H.'s views, which is: Do conventional beings and actions reference the dhammas that are actually arising at the time, although somewhat inaccurately, or are conventional beings and actions a complete fantasy with no relation to dhammas at all. This is a very important issue, and I think it's pretty clear that there is a distinction between the two views that has great import for the definition of the path and the understanding of Dhamma. Nina stated that there is no contradiction between dhammas and conventional actions, because a person who has kusala dhammas arising there will be no murder or other untoward actions. Rob K. said that 'more kusala dhammas should lead to less murder.' Ken H. disagrees with this completely, and states that since there are no beings in existence, any conventional actions that seem to be taking place, including murder, have no implication at all, no kamma, for the person with right view. Best, Rob E. =========================== Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125235 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:06 pm Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: Dieter wrote: > > Mindfulness or sati means - we possibly agree - the focus on a certain object and for that we need to collect the spreaded attention by letting go of certain intentions and support the focus we want to observe respectively contemplate about. > > I think whenever we are talking about focus, it's really about concentration, not mindfulness. I think it's a mistake to separate them that way. Of course there is a difference in cultivating concentration and cultivating mindfulness, but mindfulness, vitakkha, vicara, etc. depend on concentration as well. I am sure that concentration of a certain level arises with every moment of mindfulness. They work together. > > I think we may avoid a mixture when we see the difference of samma sati which means to know, to be attentive what is going on now ( within the 4 frames) > > in distinction from samma samadhi where strong concentration is used for absorption of the senses media (to learn what is beyond..) This is different, I think, from the basic concentration needed to focus on/be aware of something in the first place. [Tried to find some references for this, but so far all I find is association of vitakkha and vicara with concentration in Jhana, w/o sati mentioned; not the accompanying cetasikas to sati which is what I'm looking for...] Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125236 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Delisting announcement #12 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E, Howard and all, Op 26-jun-2012, om 20:25 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > H: What I admire, I admire,and > > what I do not, I do not. The same holds for others, including > Robert Epstein, > > who happens to have become increasingly admiring of Abhidhamma in > recent > > days. > > R :I have...? What's happening to me!? :-) ------- N: Lol :-)) ------- > > H: > What happens to be my main criterion for evaluating people is not > > their held "positions" nor their knowledge nor even their > intelligence, but the > > degree of their goodness, kindness, fairness, and lovingness. It > is that, > > BTW, that has been prominent in keeping me a member of DSG for so > long. > > R: I think this is really nicely said, and is a great point - that > feeling of personal support and caring, which I also feel amongst > my dsg friends -- the sense of real Sangha, fellowship -- is > equally important on the path as anything we may learn or discuss. > I think we should remember that more frequently, so thanks for the > reminder! ------ N: Yes Rob, so nicely said by Howard and you. I find it a real treat to have correspondance with you, really worth while. It helps me too to be on dsg and writing is also a reminder for myself. I value friendship. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125237 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:29 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 3, 6. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, The Buddha, by his supreme wisdom, “crossed the sea of doubt”. He could not have crossed the sea of doubt without having cultivated the right conditions. He had developed mindfulness and wisdom with the greatest perseverance and energy. Energy, viriya, is another one of the perfections the Buddha accumulated in many lives. In the ‘Visuddhimagga” we read in the passage about the perfections fulfilled by Bodhisattas (Ch IX, 124) concerning energy: “They constantly arouse energy, having beings’ welfare and happiness at heart. When they have acquired heroic fortitude through supreme energy, they become patient with beings’ many kinds of faults....” In his last life the Buddha, before he attained enlightenment, searched the truth as a pupil of Ålåra the Kålåma and then of Uddaka, but their teachings did not lead to the attainment of the truth. He followed the severest ascetical practices with supreme effort and heroic fortitude but his effort was not yet the effort of the Middle Way. In the “Greater Discourse to Saccaka” ( Middle Length Sayings I, 36) we read that he described to Aggivessana his ascetical practice of the ‘non-breathing method” which caused him severe pains. Yet, he was not cast down by the pains. We read: “...When I, Aggivessana, had stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears, there came to be a fierce heat in my body. As, Aggivessana, two strong men, having taken hold of a weaker man by his limbs, might set fire to him might make him sizzle over a charcoal pit, even so, Aggivessana, when I had stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears, did there come to be a fierce heat in my body. Although, Aggivessana, unsluggish energy came to be stirred up by me, unmuddled mindfulness set up, yet my body was turbulent, not calmed, because I was harassed in striving by striving against that very pain. But yet, Aggivessana, that painful feeling, arising in me, persisted without impinging on my mind...” ______ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125238 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Broken heart? 7. The 'situation' - the story sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >S: Sujin: "Now there is thinking about the situation, but that > > situation is not now. What > > happens if one dies now? Only thinking of a situation that does not > > come now. It > > indicates one's attachment and clinging which will condition more > > in the future lives." > ------- > N: I am just reading to Lodewijk my letter about perfections, that is > a report about another pilgrimage. How I was clinging to the > situation of Dhamma discussions, not wanting to miss out. Now I > understand more that what counts is awareness of the present reality, > no matter where one is. ... S: This is so important. It also applies to intellectual study about Abhidhamma topics, such as location of heart-base, killing and so on. If it's not kusala citta now, concerned with the understanding of present realities, it's not pariyatti, let alone satipatthana. Thinking about various stories, situations, even ideas about Dhamma, can take us away from the present moment if there's no awareness, no understanding now. Always "thinking of a situation that does not come now"! Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125239 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:35 pm Subject: Re: Broken heart? 7. The 'situation' - the story sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: I remember the passage from Milindha pa~n~nha, that also must be checked in life, investigated how much we really know. This was a question if all this 5 senses that are produced by kamma, if they are conditioned by one kamma or different kammas. Venerable Nagasena answers: By different kammas, and give a simile of planting a seeds. It's like planting different seeds, what we get later will be the same plant or different plants? Different was the answer of a king, they cannot be other than different cause different seeds give different plants. This is exactly with these 5 senses. Eye, visible object, ear, sound...,body and tangible objects. They are not ours, they are just different moments, conditioned by different kammas from a past. > > My question here is why Ven. Nagasena and King Milinda are talking only of 5 senses? .... S: The five sense bases - eye-sense, ear-sense, olfactory (smell)-sense, taste-sense, body-sense - all conditioned by past kamma. We can't know which kammas conditioned these senses arising and falling away during life. Tangible objects are different. Hardness, for example, can be conditioned by kamma, citta, temperature or nutriment, so it's not being referred to above. Also, we cannot refer to the senses as "different moments", but perhaps you mean they are transient dhammas arising and falling away like all other conditioned dhammas. ... > >S: The friend had been told to 'control' herself. But all these dhammas are conditioned - habits, tendencies, sense experiences. She had been told to 'practice more', but the dhammas are anatta - they are for understanding, not for trying to control. > > L: As Bhante Dhammadharo mentions, this is understanding that nothing is under control. This is the way of correct understanding. ... S: Yes, any dhamma at all, not under anyone's control. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125240 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:48 pm Subject: Re: Some way to study dhs and atth sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > L: Dhatukatha follows the Dhammasangani, the first book of Abhidhamma and Vibhanga the second book of Abhidhamma. In Dhammasangani the Lord explains all realies that may come. There he classifies them on many different ways such as: > kusala dhammaa, akusala dhammaa, avyakata dhamma. This group is a triplet. All dhammas can be classified like that. > > sukhaya vedanaya sampayutta dhamma, dukkhaya vedanaya sampayutta dhamma, adukkhamasukkhya vedanaya sampayutta dhamma. another triplet on realities. so all this dhammas that are associated with pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling and neither pleasant of unpleasant. > > There are also couplets like, hetu dhamma, na hetu dhamma. This all realities that are a root, or that are not root. > > And in Vibhanga we can consider more. Ruupa now like visible object? hetu or na hetu? > > Dhatukatha follows, and considers any reality as just elements, that are not self. > > There are also other 4 books. As I remember this is puggalapa~n~nati,concepts of persons, katha vathu, points of controversy(only matika, the introduction made by buddha himself), yamaka, and patthana, the great book on conditions. Just check it cause I am not sure. > > How i find it? This all are different vibhangas(classifications), to help to consider realities. Check atthasalini, 4 oceans, ocean of methods. This is how Theravada works. This is called vibhajjavada or something like that, the teachings of classifictions. Check also a concept on saavaka, the hearers. Theravada is purely based on that, listening and considering Dhamma. > > That's what I can say after few years of practicing theravada, I feel that way. And if Abhidhamma is true work of Buddha? That only u can say. If u read that, and this really brings understanding, then u will how powerful it is. > Maybe anyone wants to correct me? Or add something, welcome. ... S: You gave a very nice summary - as you say, different classifications to help us to consider and understand realities. As you mention, only the reader can know whether it brings understanding. Thx for sharing. Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (19) #125241 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:21 pm Subject: Ven. Dhammadharo, to Lukas. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas and friends, I heard a Thai recording made in Rathbury. Here Ven. Dhammadharo had disrobed already and was assisting Kh Sujin on Dhamma trips. His name was Alan Driver. Alan: in answer to someone who was wishing for sati: If you wish for sati there is no opportunity for its arising. The whole day there is wishing, wishing. It is better to be aware of colour that appears. Wishing is a reality, it is not self. It has a characteristic. Or regret of the lack of sati, this is a reality that can be object of awareness. There can be sati at such moments instead of sitting and hoping for the arising of sati. The right conditions for sati are reading, listening, considering, but it takes time. Patience, khanti, is necessary. Question: is there a method? Alan: Conversations about the Dhamma, or helping others in introducing them to the Dhamma. Each way of kusala is a helpful condition. But, one must know what sati is, what its characteristic is. One should continue to listen and to consider the Dhamma. ****** Nina. Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125242 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:12 pm Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobE, > > I think whenever we are talking about focus, it's really about concentration, not mindfulness. > > I think it's a mistake to separate them that way. Of course there is a difference in cultivating concentration and cultivating mindfulness, but mindfulness, vitakkha, vicara, etc. depend on concentration as well. I am sure that concentration of a certain level arises with every moment of mindfulness. They work together. It would probably have to do with conditional relations, which I don't know much about. My guess is that it is the root cetasikas that primarily determine whether citta is a/kusala, and then concentration, vicara, sati and the rest follow suit. I.e, it's not concentration that will make a citta a/kusala. I'm also not sure whether it can be said that these other cetasikas will "depend" on concentration in some way, I mean certainly not any more than they would "depend" on other cetaiskas, other than the roots of course. Further, cetasikas fall away with the citta. Any notion of continuity, especially of focus, or peace, etc, is probably just perversion of perception, the most probable result of that being taking akusala concentration for mindfulness. That's imo of course. I mean, the hardest step for a meditator is to admit the confusion between mindfulness and concentration. Once that happens, it's then fairly straightforward to realize that concentration is not right concentration, nor kusala, in the first place. Even though akusala concentration might arise with ("lead to") earth shattering experiences, which are extremely pleasant, peaceful, etc, it all still doesn't make it kusala. Anyway, just my observations. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125243 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:44 pm Subject: Daily Dhamma: Incapable of Falling Away! yawares1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Members, I think I love this article very much. ************** Daily Dhamma: Incapable of Falling Away! [Presented by Dr.Tep Sastri@ SD/JTN] If someone asks , "what is the Dhamma in the nutshell?", my reply will be "Siila, Samaadhi, Pa~n~naa". If he asks further, "what is the briefest way to practice the Dhamma?", my answer wil be to develop Siila, Samaadhi, Pa~n~naa. If he asks for a single sutta that briefly explains how to develop Siila-Samaadhi-Pa~n~naa, then my choice will be the Aparihaani Sutta [AN 4.37]. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.037.than.html In the Aparihaani Sutta [AN 4.37] the Greatest Teacher gave a group of four aparihaaniya (not-falling-away) dhammas briefly as follows: "Endowed with four qualities, a monk is incapable of falling away and is right in the presence of Unbinding(Nibbana). Which four? "There is the case where a monk is (i) consummate in virtue, (ii) guards the doors to his sense faculties, (iii) knows moderation in eating, & (iv) is devoted to wakefulness. "The monk established in virtue, restrained with regard to the sense faculties, knowing moderation in food, & devoted to wakefulness: dwelling thus ardently, day & night, untiring, he develops skillful qualities for the attainment of rest from the yoke. The monk delighting in heedfulness and seeing danger in heedlessness is incapable of falling away, is right in the presence of Unbinding." *********** Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares/sirikanya Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125244 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:26 am Subject: The Cute Little Mozart yawares1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Members, This Wednesday, how about the little Mozart in BELIEVE IT OR NOT! And I truly believe in REINCARNATION. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnmJjZwKvzA He's cute too, yawares Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125245 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:47 am Subject: Re: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi pt, you wrote: : 'suppress' indicates force .. but ' let the thought phase out' means 'let go' , so the term ' suppression' doesn't really fit. Ok, perhaps using something like "suspended" might be more agreeable. However, my point is that it is concentration (right or wrong) which actually stops verbal thinking and keeps it from reocurring for a period of time. Hence to me it looks like it supresses verbal thinking for a time. But I don't mind calling it something else as long as we agree it is concentration (whether right or wrong) that keeps verbal thinking away. D: yes, ' suspended 'fits better ..and yes, it is concentration which can prevent the habitual diversion and restlessness. (D:Another intersting subject is what is the object of consciousness at the time when verbal thinking is stopped for a while. > Mindfulness or sati means - we possibly agree - the focus on a certain object and for that we need to collect the spreaded attention by letting go of certain intentions and support the focus we want to observe respectively contemplate about.) pt: I think whenever we are talking about focus, it's really about concentration, not mindfulness. D: there is no real mindfulness without concentration , by focus I mean to which object the attention is directed to (mental formation/sankhara khandha). Mindfulness , satipatthana in daily life, means first of all paying attention to one's interaction with the All, that 'what is going on ' , assumed that the foundation has been laid (Maha Satipatthana Sutta). You probably think about that one-pointedness , which stays with one object, needed for absorption (Jhana). (D:> I think we may avoid a mixture when we see the difference of samma sati which means to know, to be attentive what is going on now ( within the 4 frames) > in distinction from samma samadhi where strong concentration is used for absorption of the senses media (to learn what is beyond..) That's cool, though my point was that the confusion is between miccha samadhi and sati - so mindfulness is being confused with wrong concentration at the time when verbal thinking is stopped. D: not clear to me .. what is micca samadhi? The Cetasika Ekaggatta is stated in Abh. to be an ethically variable factor, common property to all classes of consciousness, i.e. the quality wrong is determined by the company of one of the 14 unwholesome mental factors , isn't it? with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125246 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Delisting announcement #12 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > H: What I admire, I admire,and > > > what I do not, I do not. The same holds for others, including > > Robert Epstein, > > > who happens to have become increasingly admiring of Abhidhamma in > > recent > > > days. > > > > R :I have...? What's happening to me!? :-) > ------- > N: Lol :-)) > ------- :-) > > > > H: > What happens to be my main criterion for evaluating people is not > > > their held "positions" nor their knowledge nor even their > > intelligence, but the > > > degree of their goodness, kindness, fairness, and lovingness. It > > is that, > > > BTW, that has been prominent in keeping me a member of DSG for so > > long. > > > > R: I think this is really nicely said, and is a great point - that > > feeling of personal support and caring, which I also feel amongst > > my dsg friends -- the sense of real Sangha, fellowship -- is > > equally important on the path as anything we may learn or discuss. > > I think we should remember that more frequently, so thanks for the > > reminder! > ------ > N: Yes Rob, so nicely said by Howard and you. I find it a real treat > to have correspondance with you, really worth while. It helps me too > to be on dsg and writing is also a reminder for myself. I value > friendship. > Nina. Thanks so much, Nina. I certainly feel the same way! Thanks to you, Sarah and Jon for keeping this group moving forward. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125247 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:22 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: As I think you'll agree, there is a difference between (a) a view actually held (by a person) and (b) a statement made (by a person) that appears to reflect a particular view. > > Statements made do not necessarily reflect views actually held. I don't get this. If someone sincerely makes a statement of belief, that does reflect their view, doesn't it? For example, a scientist who holds the views of a Christian may, having conducted scientific research, put forward 'evidence' that supports or confirms the evolutionist view (a view he does not share). I doubt a scientist would put forth evidence that he thought was incorrect. He may think that science and religion do not intersect and reserve his views within each apart from the other, but that is not to say that he does not hold both views, one in the realm of concrete reality, and the other in the realm of spiritual matters. > Or a person who has never heard the Dhamma in the present lifetime may, given the choice between theism and atheism, declare a belief in God as being the preferred view of the two (without actually holding that view, due to the development of insight in previous lifetimes). If he chooses a preferred view, then that is the one that he holds at that time. I don't see that one can espouse a view, unless he is lying, without holding it. That seems like a very tenuous formulation. > So I don't see any purpose in trying to identify quotes as being indicative of right or wrong view on the part of the speaker/writer. All we have are the words that someone puts forth as their own to identify their views. I'm sure you don't think that language has nothing to do with one's view, since the identification and definition of things has so much to do with how they are regarded. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125248 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:57 pm Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Dieter, > D: there is no real mindfulness without concentration , by focus I mean to which object the attention is directed to (mental formation/sankhara khandha). pt: Not sure I follow. What is "real" mindfulness? I think concentration and attention arise with every citta, kusala or akusala, so I still don't see quite how is concentration crucial for arising of mindfulness, if that's what you are saying. > D: Mindfulness , satipatthana in daily life, means first of all paying attention to one's interaction with the All, that 'what is going on ' , assumed that the foundation has been laid (Maha Satipatthana Sutta). pt: Perhaps it might be useful to look at the differences between cetasikas of mindfulness, attention and concentration. I mean, from memory, the main function of mindfulness is remembering kusala, not paying attention. Attention pays attention, concentration concentrates, and mindfulness remembers kusala. Different functions, if function is the right technical term. That's how I remember it. Please see the 'Sati' section in the Useful Posts file. E.g. taking the very first message (38028) there by Htoo actually addresses some of the differences between these: > > quote - Htoo: Thieves may be mindful. But they when mindful are not developing sati cetasika. They may be mindful because they are attentive to what they should do not to be caught. This mindfulness is actually done by manasikara cetasika which is a universal cetasika and can arise with akusala cittas like when stealing. < < end quote pt: Manasikara is attention, so yet another way to confuse mindfulness with other cetasikas. > D: not clear to me .. > what is micca samadhi? The Cetasika Ekaggatta is stated in Abh. to be an ethically variable factor, common property to all classes of consciousness, i.e. the quality wrong is determined by the company of one of the 14 unwholesome mental factors , isn't it? pt: Miccha samadhi is the opposite of samma samadhi that you were mentioning. So then concentration which arises with akusala citta would be a contributing factor to miccha samadhi. What I'm saying is that as a meditator, I might usually think I'm experiencing mindfulness, whereas as a matter of fact, I'm experiencing wrong concentration. And this confusion happens because wrong concentration accompanies meditative experiences of "stopping of verbal thought", "intense non-bodily pleasure", "mental clarity", "deep peace", etc, all of which seem to resemble descriptions of samma samadhi in the texts. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125249 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:13 am Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > It would probably have to do with conditional relations, which I don't know much about. Well you probably know more than me. :-) > My guess is that it is the root cetasikas that primarily determine whether citta is a/kusala, and then concentration, vicara, sati and the rest follow suit. I'm sure you are right about that. > ...I mean, the hardest step for a meditator is to admit the confusion between mindfulness and concentration. I think that is a good point, and one that I have had a little more clarity about from both dsg and my 'contemplation' of some of the anapanasati sutta stanzas. There needs to be a balance in the development of both sati and samatha. That's my view anyway. But seeing that they are different is very important. Even the way the breath is regarded is different if the focus is calm versus understanding. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125250 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:51 pm Subject: Re: Question about Jhanacitta sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Staisha, Just wanted to say that I was glad to see you posting again after a very long break! I'd be interested to know how you found Nina's detailed reply and whether there was a particular reason for asking. Do you live in the States? I forget. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Staisha" wrote: > I have not wrote here in a long time, > and apologize if this is not written in correct formatting. > > Q: when there are jhanacitta, no matter for how long, there cannot be bhavanga- cittas in between? > > Why is this so? Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125251 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:27 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob K & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > We were discussing about the eyedooor processes with Kuhun sujin a few weeks ago. And the topic came up about how amazing and uncontrollable it is. The actual moment of seeing arises at the eyedoor (located in the physical eye) but the remaining moments of citta in that process are occuring at the heart base, so far from the eye coor. And the the other mindoor processes occuring at the heart base, and repeated many many times before there is even perception, " this is a table" . And each moment needs many condtions to arise. A" miracle" was one of her words. ... S: Yes, the "miracle" of the coming together of the ayatanas at this moment. Without this miracle, there'd be no experiencing at all. ... > > Now of course i cant distniguish these different moments, but I am very confident in the truth of it and know. It is conditioning more understanding of anatta and as Sujin says" these aspects, although we might not see them directly, are accumulated in sankhara khandha and do help direct understanding to arise. ... S: Here she is referring to the accumulated wise considering about realities. It is the understanding and other wholesome mental factors which are accumulated in sankhara khandha conditioning the direct understanding of the reality appearing now. If it's not pariyatti understanding, but just thinking about various concepts and details, such as ideas about heart-base during by-pass surgery, exact location of eye-sense and so on, it just leads to more and more thinking and speculation as I see it. Do you remember when we raised a qu Nina had from her Vism & Tiika studies? It was about a detail relating to visible object #35947 KS: "It helps for thinking about words and concepts, but not understanding reality as it is. No matter what is said in the commentary, what appears, appears *now* according to the commentary. Now it (visible object) is seen, no matter if we think about the shape, colour or size - it's that which can be seen (known) in order to become detached from clinging or paying attention as before (as we're used to). Otherwise we're following words and concepts instead of understanding it. The only way to become detached is to understand reality appearing in order to understand there's no one in it. Otherwise there's only thinking about visible object all the time in a day." ... > > The idea of these processes occuring in the " brain" seems so caught up in cultural ideas and self to me. ... S: I don't remember anyone saying this. I think Ken H has repeatedly stressed it is exactly what he isn't saying. I think he's said many times that if there's an idea of dhammas situated in conventional ideas of things - whether they be brains, pumps, blood or anything else, it's missing the point, but I'll leave you both to pursue that one! I think there is a communication issue between the two of you. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125252 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:31 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > Thanks for your message; it explained a point I was trying to make some time ago when I said satipatthana was "for mass murderers and snow sweepers alike." I attracted some criticism for that. What a pity I wasn't able to explain it the way you have here: > > ----- > > N: … She will answer that so long as one is not a sotaapanna there are conditions to kill or to be enslaved to alcohol. Then she will bring people back to the present moment: now you are not drinking, not killing, you are just thinking. Even thinking now is a conditioned naama, not "your" thinking. Or seeing, is there no seeing now, know it, understand it as only a naama. > ----- ... S: That was what I understood you to be saying....always back to this moment. Misunderstandings are easy. At least we all agree on this, I think! Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125253 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:40 pm Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #12 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, Phil & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > You mean not to discuss it? ... S: i didn't wish anyone to feel they needed to justify or explain any private comments that was all. I liked these comments Nina heard from K.Sujin on a recording and sent to Lukas recently - I think just along the lines that you and Howard were discussing: >When we listen to the Dhamma and there is yoniso manasikara, right attention, we see more and more the danger of even slight defilements. This is a condition for sati, to be aware of realities, aware of whatever appears now. She stressed the importance of kusala in daily life. Everybody has lots of self love. This can diminish by kusala. We should be able to forgive others, that is a way of daana, abhaya daana: the wish that everybody lives in safety, free from danger. Each moment in daily life there can be the practice of Dhamma, this is not just sitting alone. We can be more concerned for others. There can be mettaa, helping others. At the moment of kusala citta we are free from lobha, dosa and moha. If we do not understand this and prefer to only sit alone, in seclusion, we have not understood the practice of Dhamma. **** S: "Each moment in daily life there can be the practice of Dhamma..." There are tests all day, tests of whether there is kindness, help and understanding or whether lobha, dosa and moha win out again.... Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125254 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Forgiving, was Delisting. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, Rob E, Phil & all, Op 28-jun-2012, om 9:40 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > "Each moment in daily life there can be the practice of > Dhamma..." > > There are tests all day, tests of whether there is kindness, help > and understanding or whether lobha, dosa and moha win out again.... ------ N: Yes always things happening that are beyond control. What a test! As to forgiving, I found this passage of pilgrimage so helpful about the perfections Bodhisattas are accumulating: <“They constantly arouse energy, having beings’ welfare and happiness at heart. When they have acquired heroic fortitude through supreme energy, they become patient with beings’ many kinds of faults....”> ----- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125255 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:19 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 3, 7. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, The Buddha took hardly any food and his body became completely emaciated. We read in the “Greater Discourse on the Lion’s Roar” (Middle Length Sayings I, 11) that the Buddha said to Såriputta: “Because I ate so little, all my limbs became like the knotted joints of withered creepers; because I ate so little, my buttocks became like a bullock’s hoof; because I ate so little, my protruding backbone became like a string of balls; because I ate so little, my gaunt ribs became like the crazy rafters of a tumble-down shed; because I ate so little, the pupils of my eyes appeared lying low and deep in their sockets as sparkles of water in a deep well appear lying low and deep; because I ate so little, my scalp became shrivelled and shrunk as a bitter white gourd cut before it is ripe becomes shrivelled and shrunk by a hot wind. If I, Såriputta, thought: ‘I will touch the skin of my belly’, it was my backbone that I took hold of. For, because I ate so little, the skin of my belly, Såriputta, came to be cleaving to my backbone. If I, Såriputta, thought: ‘I will obey the calls of nature’, I fell down on my face then and there, because I ate so little. If I, Såriputta, soothing my body, stroked my limbs with my hand, the hairs, rotted at the roots, fell away from my body as I stroked my limbs with my hand, because I ate so little. But I, Sariputta, even by this procedure, by this course, by this mortification, did not reach states of further-men or the excellent knowledge and insight befitting the ariyans....” The Bodhisatta found that such severe austerity that he had practised with “unsluggish energy” was not the way leading to enlightenment. He decided to take solid food. From the hands of the girl Sujåtå he received boiled rice and sour milk, near the river Nerañjarå. Afterwards he cast the golden dish upstream into the river and, full of his resolve “Today will I become a Buddha!”, he walked in the evening towards the Bodhi-tree (“Expositor” I, 34). He would attain enlightenment that very night. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125256 From: Lukas Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:24 pm Subject: The characteristic of visible object? szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, What is the characteristic of visible object? What is the characteristic of thinking? Best wishes Lukas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125257 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, pt (and Dieter) - In a message dated 6/27/2012 11:11:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ptaus1@... writes: Hi Dieter, > D: there is no real mindfulness without concentration , by focus I mean to which object the attention is directed to (mental formation/sankhara khandha). pt: Not sure I follow. What is "real" mindfulness? I think concentration and attention arise with every citta, kusala or akusala, so I still don't see quite how is concentration crucial for arising of mindfulness, if that's what you are saying. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- HCW: There are many sorts of "concentration" discussed by the Buddha, and not just the cetasika arising with every citta that is discussed in the Abhidhamma. In fact, there is more than one sutta, pt, in which the Buddha teaches how concentration conditions mindfulness. One example is the following in which a concentration is *to be developed* and so is more than what is always present: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ SN 35.99 PTS: _S iv 80_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/SN_IV_utf8.html#pts.080) CDB ii 1181 Samadhi Sutta: Concentration translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu _© 1997–2012_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.099.than.html#F_termsOfUse\ ) "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present." _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Also, within AN 11.1 there is the following: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward." "And what is the purpose of knowledge & vision of things as they actually are? What is its reward?" "Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward." "And what is the purpose of disenchantment? What is its reward?" "Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward." "And what is the purpose of dispassion? What is its reward?" "Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. "Thus in this way, Ananda, skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. "In this way, Ananda, skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the consummation of arahantship." ==================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125258 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] samaadhi. Was Out of our hands? nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, Op 28-jun-2012, om 14:25 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > There are many sorts of "concentration" discussed by the Buddha, and > not just the cetasika arising with every citta that is discussed in > the > Abhidhamma. In fact, there is more than one sutta, pt, in which the > Buddha > teaches how concentration conditions mindfulness. One example is > the following > in which a concentration is *to be developed* and so is more than > what is > always present: > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ N: The commentary I checked in Thai and it is quite interesting. Samaadhi: the fact that citta has only one object. The Buddha saw someone who was declining from having (only) one object. When the citta has one object, the kammathaana (object of meditation) needs a wetnurse, therefore the Buddha preached this sutta. ----- N: The sutta indicates that one object: the eye, seeing, eyecontact etc. Kammathaana: not necessarily jhaana of samatha. It seems to indicate, also at other places, the objects of satipa.t.thaana. Also in this sutta these objects are mentioned. A wetnurse: the baby is very dependant on this. N: my own observation: I think we need the help of samaadhi so that there is one object at a time that is the object of vipassanaa. ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125259 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The characteristic of visible object? nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas, Op 28-jun-2012, om 11:24 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > What is the characteristic of visible object? What is the > characteristic of thinking? ------ N: Visible object is all that appears through the eyesense, it is that which is seen. It is ruupa, different from the experience of visible object. Visible object does not know anything, it does not know that it is experienced. It could not appear if there were no seeing. Thinking: this thinks of stories about persons or things. When we consider more seeing, hearing, tasting, etc. we can come to understand that thinking is quite different from the experience of sense objects. I heard from a Thai recording, taken in Rathbury, Alan (before: Ven. Dhammadharo, he spoke Thai very well) said: ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125260 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:48 pm Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, > H: There are many sorts of "concentration" discussed by the Buddha, and > not just the cetasika arising with every citta that is discussed in the > Abhidhamma. In fact, there is more than one sutta, pt, in which the Buddha > teaches how concentration conditions mindfulness. One example is the following pt: I've read the excerpts twice, but for some reason I still don't quite see where it states or implies that concentration conditions mindfulness? > H: in which a concentration is *to be developed* and so is more than what is > always present pt: I'm not sure I'd agree entirely with such interpretation for a couple of reasons at least: 1. We probably agree that the suttas encourage development of kusala concentration, so not just any concentration. So in that sense, yes, kusala concentration is not always present and needs to be developed. Further, my main contention is really that what is being mixed up by meditators is wrong concentration and mindfulness. If it was right concentration and mindfulness, that wouldn't be so bad at all and would probably sort itself out at some point. But taking wrong concentration for mindfulness is the actual problem imo. 2. The Buddha encouraged development of all wholesome qualities including concentration, energy, perception, etc, in many suttas. Taking all those suttas together, can it be concluded that concentration "conditions" mindfulness? There's probably a conditional relation like conascent or something like that which says that concentration and mindfulness condition eachother by virtue of arising with the same citta. But the implication in Dieter's post (and in the minds of many meditators, including myself) seems to be that concentration is one of the main, if not the main factor, that makes mindfulness happen. But how important really is concentration for the arising of mindfulness? I can't say that it seems it is anywhere close to being the main condition for it. Would it come before the 3 roots for example? I guess we are really exploring conditional relations here. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll have time to read up on that any time soon, so perhaps these are just elementary misguided questions on my behalf. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125261 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:57 am Subject: Re: Delisting announcement #12 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah, and all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > I liked these comments Nina heard from K.Sujin on a recording and sent to Lukas recently - I think just along the lines that you and Howard were discussing: > > > >When we listen to the Dhamma and there is yoniso manasikara, right > attention, we see more and more the danger of even slight > defilements. This is a condition for sati, to be aware of realities, > aware of whatever appears now. She stressed the importance of kusala > in daily life. Everybody has lots of self love. This can diminish by > kusala. We should be able to forgive others, that is a way of daana, > abhaya daana: the wish that everybody lives in safety, free from > danger. Each moment in daily life there can be the practice of > Dhamma, this is not just sitting alone. We can be more concerned for > others. There can be mettaa, helping others. At the moment of kusala > citta we are free from lobha, dosa and moha. If we do not understand > this and prefer to only sit alone, in seclusion, we have not > understood the practice of Dhamma. I'm really enjoying this discussion, and the quote above from K. Sujin is just wonderful - a great exposition of how kusala is actually helpful and can be seen to help others and reduce suffering when it is recognized. I like the way that K. Sujin can sometimes have the expansiveness to express the implications of kusala, and the practical effect it has. It also seems to support what I thought was such a good statement by Rob K. in our controversial current topic on dhammas and concepts, which I paraphrase: "We should expect that more kusala will result in less murder." In other words, there is a practical effect on our daily lives, even now while we are still caught in delusion. When kusala arises, things are better, even if it is just for a moment or a short period of time. > S: "Each moment in daily life there can be the practice of > Dhamma..." And again, when K. Sujin says that the practice of Dhamma is not just sitting alone, but helping others, that is a somewhat Mahayana view. There are many Theravadins that believe that enlightenment is completely a solo affair, an individual path, and I again enjoy K. Sujin's expansiveness [and metta] in what she said above. > There are tests all day, tests of whether there is kindness, help and understanding or whether lobha, dosa and moha win out again.... Good to see, and good to be aware of. Thanks, Sarah. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125262 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:05 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah and Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: Ken H.: > > Thanks for your message; it explained a point I was trying to make some time ago when I said satipatthana was "for mass murderers and snow sweepers alike." I attracted some criticism for that. What a pity I wasn't able to explain it the way you have here: > > > > ----- > > > N: … She will answer that so long as one is not a sotaapanna there are conditions to kill or to be enslaved to alcohol. Then she will bring people back to the present moment: now you are not drinking, not killing, you are just thinking. Even thinking now is a conditioned naama, not "your" thinking. Or seeing, is there no seeing now, know it, understand it as only a naama. > > ----- > ... > S: That was what I understood you to be saying....always back to this moment. Misunderstandings are easy. > > At least we all agree on this, I think! Whatever other issues there may be, I think it is a very good point which you and Ken H. have highlighted, that at a given moment even a so-called murderer may be having a kusala moment, or may be thinking about shopping for a Christmas present, or anything else. Our definitions and labels for people do not necessarily represent the reality that is happening now. This leaves a hopeful opening for the development of kusala for anyone. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125263 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:15 am Subject: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > HCW: > There are many sorts of "concentration" discussed by the Buddha, and > not just the cetasika arising with every citta that is discussed in the > Abhidhamma. In fact, there is more than one sutta, pt, in which the Buddha > teaches how concentration conditions mindfulness. One example is the following > in which a concentration is *to be developed* and so is more than what is > always present: > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > SN 35.99 > PTS: _S iv 80_ > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/SN_IV_utf8.html#pts.080) > CDB ii 1181 > Samadhi Sutta: Concentration > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.099.than.html#F_termsOfUse\ ) > "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they > actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... > 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact > is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced > either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is > inconstant.' > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'... > 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is > inconstant"... > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is > inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is inconstant'... > 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on > intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as > neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as > they actually are present." > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > Also, within AN 11.1 there is the following: > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > "And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" > "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as > its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its > reward." > "And what is the purpose of knowledge & vision of things as they actually > are? What is its reward?" > "Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as > its purpose, disenchantment as its reward." > "And what is the purpose of disenchantment? What is its reward?" > "Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward." > "And what is the purpose of dispassion? What is its reward?" > "Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & > vision of release as its reward. > "Thus in this way, Ananda, skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as > their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. Freedom from remorse has > joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, > rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its > reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. > Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. > Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, > knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Knowledge & > vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, > disenchantment as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, > dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as > its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. > "In this way, Ananda, skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the > consummation of arahantship." > ==================================== Wow, Howard, these are fantastic and important passages which clearly show the role of right concentration in bhavana, the development of understanding, rather than as an alternative path from the development of mindfulness as it is sometimes characterized. Great contribution to our ongoing discussion of this topic. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125264 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi pt, you wrote: D: there is no real mindfulness without concentration , by focus I mean to which object the attention is directed to (mental formation/sankhara khandha). pt: Not sure I follow. What is "real" mindfulness? I think concentration and attention arise with every citta, kusala or akusala, so I still don't see quite how is concentration crucial for arising of mindfulness, if that's what you are saying. D: We need to go into detail. Nyantiloka 's Buddhist Dictionary: a.. sati 'mindfulness', is one of the 5 spiritual faculties and powers (s. bala), one of the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga), and the 7th link of the 8-fold Path (magga), and is, in its widest sense, one of those mental factors inseparably associated with all karmically wholesome (kusala) and karma-produced lofty (sobhana) consciousness (Cf. Tab. II). - For the 4 foundations of mindfulness s. satipatthana. ' assumed mindfulness is the best English term for sati ( questioned , see the essay 'Mindfulness is not sati? ' http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2009/02/13/mindfulness-is-not-sati/ ) ( other sources to mention http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel121.html Thanissaro Bhikkhu's essay http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/mindfulnessdefined.html ) Wiki: Mindfulness refers to a psychological quality that involves: bringing one's complete attention to the present experience on a moment-to-moment basis,[1]or involves paying attention in a particular way: on purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally,[1] or involves a kind of nonelaborative, nonjudgmental, present-centered awareness in which each thought, feeling, or sensation that arises in the attentional field is acknowledged and accepted as it is[2] unquote I like " bringing one's complete attention to the present experience on a moment-to-moment basis". Moment to Moment means to recognize what is going on , what is changing , what is arising , ceasing etc. This I call real mindfulness in distinction from our daily life 'low- key' attention to the all of senses , accompanied by mental hindrances . By 'bringing one's complete attention ' , I understand to concentrate the divided mental activity to a certain spotlight, focus on a single object and/or process and/or characteristic. > D: Mindfulness , satipatthana in daily life, means first of all paying attention to one's interaction with the All, that 'what is going on ' , assumed that the foundation has been laid (Maha Satipatthana Sutta). pt: Perhaps it might be useful to look at the differences between cetasikas of mindfulness, attention and concentration. I mean, from memory, the main function of mindfulness is remembering kusala, not paying attention. Attention pays attention, concentration concentrates, and mindfulness remembers kusala. Different functions, if function is the right technical term. That's how I remember it. Please see the 'Sati' section in the Useful Posts file. E.g. taking the very first message (38028) there by Htoo actually addresses some of the differences between these: > > quote - Htoo: Thieves may be mindful. But they when mindful are not developing sati cetasika. They may be mindful because they are attentive to what they should do not to be caught. This mindfulness is actually done by manasikara cetasika which is a universal cetasika and can arise with akusala cittas like when stealing. < < end quote pt: Manasikara is attention, so yet another way to confuse mindfulness with other cetasikas. D: yes , not so easy .. I prefer to use attention (manasikara) as a low level of sati , i.e. common mindfulness. The 'lesser mindfulness' is always present , so the ethic of the citta including manasasikara is determined by another cetasika , either a wholesome or unwholesome one. (Same with one-pointedness -ekaggata) . Hence Htoo 's simile of thief is only one side of the coin. > D: not clear to me .. > what is micca samadhi? The Cetasika Ekaggatta is stated in Abh. to be an ethically variable factor, common property to all classes of consciousness, i.e. the quality wrong is determined by the company of one of the 14 unwholesome mental factors , isn't it? pt: Miccha samadhi is the opposite of samma samadhi that you were mentioning. So then concentration which arises with akusala citta would be a contributing factor to miccha samadhi. What I'm saying is that as a meditator, I might usually think I'm experiencing mindfulness, whereas as a matter of fact, I'm experiencing wrong concentration. D: Buddh. Dict. samadhi "'concentration'; lit. 'the (mental) state of being firmly fixed' (sam+a+Ö ha), is the fixing of the mind on a single object. "One-pointedness of mind (cittass' ekaggata), Brother Visakha, this is called concentration" (M. 44). Concentration - though often very weak - is one of the 7 mental concomitants inseparably associated with all consciousness. Cf. nama, cetana.Right concentration (samma-samadhi), as the last link of the 8-fold Path (s. magga),is defined as the 4 meditative absorptions (jhana). In a wider sense, comprising also much weaker states of concentration, it is associated with all karmically wholesome (kusala) consciousness. Wrong concentration (miccha-samadhi)is concentration associated with all karmically unwholesome (akusala) consciousness. Wherever in the texts this term is not differentiated by 'right' or 'wrong', there 'right' concentration is meant ." I wonder whether we may find the term 'miccha-samadhi ' within the texts . What is wrong is the unwholesome cetasika accompanying the citta ,not samadhi. pt: And this confusion happens because wrong concentration accompanies meditative experiences of "stopping of verbal thought", "intense non-bodily pleasure", "mental clarity", "deep peace", etc, all of which seem to resemble descriptions of samma samadhi in the texts. D: not yet clear to me what you mean , pt with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125265 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Kenh1 kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, ------ <. . .> > KH: ... There was no way in the world he could cause any sentient being any harm. > HCW: Would he not know that his actions would cause pain? ----- KH: I'm not sure. We know sotopanas are capable of dosa, don't we, and we know dosa can manifest in their minds as grief, for example. In reality it is just plain dosa, but in their minds it is grief for the loss of a concept. I doubt, however, if dosa could ever manifest in their minds as an intention to cause pain. I am sure it could seem that way to onlookers, and I suspect that was what the blind-monk sutta was about. I was suggesting to Robert E that any apparent killing by the monk would simply need to be reconsidered. Any story about his being responsible for the deaths would be at odds with ultimate reality, and so a more appropriate conventional story would have to be found. Perhaps it could have been about why the caterpillars were in the wrong place at the time. Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125266 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H, and Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > I was suggesting to Robert E that any apparent killing by the monk would simply need to be reconsidered. Any story about his being responsible for the deaths would be at odds with ultimate reality, and so a more appropriate conventional story would have to be found. > > Perhaps it could have been about why the caterpillars were in the wrong place at the time. But I think that is what the story is about. The caterpillars were in the place that they were through their own sets of conditions, and the monk had to walk the path for whatever reason, due to whatever set of conditions impinged on him as well, and that is the coming together of foot and caterpillar, due to conditions. If you don't like "foot" or "caterpillar" you can substitute "the corresponding rupas," which you will probably also object to, since there "is no correspondence...?" An ariyan monk would not cause harm intentionally, even on the conventional level is my point. So the harm caused to the caterpillars could not be intentional. If the monk could see, he would have navigated around the caterpillars for sure, as all non-violent monks do. He would not have said "ha ha, another non-being bites the dust! I love it when those illusions make that delightful crunching sound!" He would go around them, illusory or not in ultimate terms. In fact that is the only import the blindness can have. If it was just about right view recognizing that there are no beings to be killed, even though they make a nice crunch when they are crushed [merely rupas,] then it would not have to be about a blind monk. A seeing monk could do the same thing, recognizing that there are no beings, and killing haphazardly without any harm to anyone in ultimate terms. But this is not how the enlightened behave, and there is a reason for that. Buddha did not go hunting, free to do so because there "are no beings to kill anyway," so why not shoot them? Those with right view who recognize the truth of anatta non-the-less always behave with harmlessness and respect in conventional activity. There is a reason for that. Perhaps we should discuss why they behave this way, even though there are 'no beings.' Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125267 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:38 am Subject: What some says give no indication of view rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email TherE seems to be the idea on dsg that whatever anyone says can give no indication of right or wrong view. This makes it rather pointless to discuss Dhamma imho, i gues nothing more can be said Robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125268 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:07 pm Subject: Re: What some says give no indication of view rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > TherE seems to be the idea on dsg that whatever anyone says can give no indication of right or wrong view. > This makes it rather pointless to discuss Dhamma imho, i gues nothing more can be said > Robert > Sorry, i am using ipad and deleted the whole statement i was replying to. Here is the original idea: >"" So I don't see any purpose in trying to identify quotes as being indicative of right or wrong view on the part of the speaker/writer.""" If what someone says/writes has no relationship to view Then I am curious why anyone would preference say the Tipitika over the bible. Or why do some members post hundreds of replies over years countering Howard or Robert E.s posts? After all what howard or robert say don't correlate. Maybe Nina when she explains in beautiful detail about anatta actually means there is a soul created by God? Or when she said she apprecited my post about heart base meant that the heart base was in the brain. Robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125269 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:29 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email >> KH: Therefore, I take her descriptions to be saying, for example, that kalapas of rupas are being conditioned to arise now – at this very moment - rather than to be saying that kalapas (as distinct from molecules) are created by chemical reactions in the stomach. > ++++++++== Dear Kenh > RK: this is another disingenuous post. Are you implying that I said kalapas are created by chemical reactions? Where do you get such an idea.. please try to cite what I write. --------------- KH: This is another case in point. When I say only dhammas exist, you say the heart and the body exist. You tell Pt the body is made of kalapas. (I can find that quote if you want me to.) In support of your claim you quote where Nina has written about nutrition giving rise to rupas. How am I to know how you interpret Nina's quote if you won't tell me? You just ask for my interpretation of it. I can only assume you see it as saying that food, when it goes into the stomach, it is converted into rupas. Don't blame me if my assumption is wrong; I am only doing my ingenuous best. Ken H Youare referring to my post from nina book below: that nina made. Now i know there prevailing view on dsg is that there is no realtionship between what someone writes and their actual views. But lets just for a exercise imagine that there might be . But anyway lets look at what Nina writes in her profound book on physical phenomena: "Rupas do not arise singly, they arise in units or groups. What we take for our body is composed of many groups or units, consisting each of different kinds of rupa, and the rupas in such a group arise together and fall away together. " "The unborn being in the womb, for example, needs the right temperature in order to grow. Throughout life the element of heat produces rupas. Nutrition is another factor which produces rupas. When food has been taken by a living being it is assimilated into the body and then nutrition can produce rupas. Some of the groups of rupa of our body are produced by kamma, some by citta, some by temperature and some by nutrition. The four factors which produce the rupas of our body support and consolidate each other and keep this shortlived body going.""" I know you agree with nina, but what we are trying to establish- looking at this quote is where what i say is different from her. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" > > What am I to make of that? I can only assume you are saying there is more to ultimate reality than "only dhammas." Instead of explaining exactly what that something more might be, however, you simply ask for my interpretations of the passages you quote. > > Then, when I interpret them to be saying only dhammas (not frogs) are conditioned by kamma, you accuse me of misrepresenting you. > > ---------------- > <. . .> > >> KH: Therefore, I take her > descriptions to be saying, for example, that kalapas of rupas are being > conditioned to arise now – at this very moment - rather than to be saying that > kalapas (as distinct from molecules) are created by chemical reactions in the > stomach. > > ++++++++== > > Dear Kenh > > > RK: this is another disingenuous post. Are you implying that I said kalapas are created by chemical reactions? Where do you get such an idea.. please try to cite what I write. > --------------- > > KH: This is another case in point. When I say only dhammas exist, you say the heart and the body exist. You tell Pt the body is made of kalapas. (I can find that quote if you want me to.) In support of your claim you quote where Nina has written about nutrition giving rise to rupas. > > How am I to know how you interpret Nina's quote if you won't tell me? You just ask for my interpretation of it. > > I can only assume you see it as saying that food, when it goes into the stomach, it is converted into rupas. Don't blame me if my assumption is wrong; I am only doing my ingenuous best. > > Ken H > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125270 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:45 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert K, -------------- >> KH: My argument is with Robert K for his insistence that people - not just > dhammas) - are reborn, or that people - not just dhammas – perform kusala and > akusala actions."" > RK: this is an outright misrepresentation bordering on a lie. --------------- KH: I am glad to hear it was a misrepresentation, albeit an accidental one. When I say "there are only dhammas" you accuse me of mindless oversimplification, and you refer to passages in the Tipitaka where it is said (for example) that frogs are reborn. What am I to make of that? I can only assume you are saying there is more to ultimate reality than "only dhammas." Instead of explaining exactly what that something more might be, however, you simply ask for my interpretations of the passages you quote. Then, when I interpret them to be saying only dhammas (not frogs) are conditioned by kamma, you accuse me of misrepresenting you. ================================= ====== dear kenh I am in manila for a few days and have poor internet connection. I can find the actual sutta commentry from vimanavatthu about the frog . Lets instead discuss this recent post by nina below. She quotes from the commentaty to abhidhamma about the women who was driwned in a future life because she drowned a dog. Again am i saying anything different from nina or this commentary. Of course nina, Buddhaghosa and me all know that in reality there are only streams of evanescent namas and rupas arsing Nd passing away. What we call a dog is merely a designation for the elements right? ======== Nina:I do not think that it is "in one's own hands'" to try to compensate for evil kamma and to avoid unhappy results. There are other texts explaining that one cannot escape from vipaaka: Dhammapada vs 127: The Expositor (p. 361) illustrates this with examples. A woman drowned a dog, and she could not escape from drowning in midocean. Moggallana who was an arahat could not escape an unhappy result form a former evil deed. When I think of cause and result, I do not believe this is fatalism. It is the dukkha of being in the cycle, and only when there is the end to rebirth there is after the final passing away no more result ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > > >> KH: Therefore, I take her > descriptions to be saying, for example, that kalapas of rupas are being > conditioned to arise now – at this very moment - rather than to be saying that > kalapas (as distinct from molecules) are created by chemical reactions in the > stomach. > > ++++++++== > > Dear Kenh > > > RK: this is another disingenuous post. Are you implying that I said kalapas > are created by chemical reactions? Where do you get such an idea.. please try to > cite what I write. > --------------- > > KH: This is another case in point. When I say only dhammas exist, you say the > heart and the body exist. You tell Pt the body is made of kalapas. (I can find > that quote if you want me to.) In support of your claim you quote where Nina > has written about nutrition giving rise to rupas. > > How am I to know how you interpret Nina's quote if you won't tell me? You just > ask for my interpretation of it. > > I can only assume you see it as saying that food, when it goes into the > stomach, it is converted into rupas. Don't blame me if my assumption is wrong; I > am only doing my ingenuous best. > > Ken H > > > > Youare referring to my post from nina book below: that nina made. Now i know there prevailing view on dsg is that there is no realtionship between what someone writes and their actual views. But lets just for a exercise imagine that there might be . > > > But anyway lets look at what Nina writes in her profound book on physical > phenomena: > "Rupas do not arise singly, they arise in units or groups. What we take for our > body is composed of many groups or units, consisting each of different kinds of > rupa, and the rupas in such a group arise together and fall away together. " > > "The unborn being in the womb, for example, needs the right temperature in order > to grow. Throughout life the element of heat produces rupas. Nutrition is > another factor which produces rupas. When food has been taken by a living being > it is assimilated into the body and then nutrition can produce rupas. Some of > the groups of rupa of our body are produced by kamma, some by citta, some by > temperature and some by nutrition. The four factors which produce the rupas of > our body support and consolidate each other and keep this shortlived body going.""" > > I know you agree with nina, but what we are trying to establish- looking at this quote is where what i say is different from her. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" > > > > What am I to make of that? I can only assume you are saying there is more to ultimate reality than "only dhammas." Instead of explaining exactly what that something more might be, however, you simply ask for my interpretations of the passages you quote. > > > > Then, when I interpret them to be saying only dhammas (not frogs) are conditioned by kamma, you accuse me of misrepresenting you. > > > > ---------------- > > <. . .> > > >> KH: Therefore, I take her > > descriptions to be saying, for example, that kalapas of rupas are being > > conditioned to arise now – at this very moment - rather than to be saying that > > kalapas (as distinct from molecules) are created by chemical reactions in the > > stomach. > > > ++++++++== > > > > Dear Kenh > > > > > RK: this is another disingenuous post. Are you implying that I said kalapas are created by chemical reactions? Where do you get such an idea.. please try to cite what I write. > > --------------- > > > > KH: This is another case in point. When I say only dhammas exist, you say the heart and the body exist. You tell Pt the body is made of kalapas. (I can find that quote if you want me to.) In support of your claim you quote where Nina has written about nutrition giving rise to rupas. > > > > How am I to know how you interpret Nina's quote if you won't tell me? You just ask for my interpretation of it. > > > > I can only assume you see it as saying that food, when it goes into the stomach, it is converted into rupas. Don't blame me if my assumption is wrong; I am only doing my ingenuous best. > > > > Ken H > > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125271 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:58 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Rob K & all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > > > > The idea of these processes occuring in the " brain" seems so caught up in cultural ideas and self to me. > ... > S: I don't remember anyone saying this. I think Ken H has repeatedly stressed it is exactly what he isn't saying. I think he's said many times that if there's an idea of dhammas situated in conventional ideas of things - whether they be brains, pumps, blood or anything else, it's missing the point, but I'll leave you both to pursue that one! > > I think there is a communication issue between the two of you. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== Dear sarah Please again explain why the visuddhimagga said it was in the blood in the conventiona heart, was buddhaghose missing the point? Or am I the only one in all of buddhaland that doesn't get it? Why don't you ask kenh and clarify. He says it is. I wonder why he said that " looking back the commentries might say we got that one ( about the heart base ) wrong" or words to that effect? Robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125272 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Broken heart? 7. The 'situation' - the story rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > ... > S: This is so important. It also applies to intellectual study about Abhidhamma topics, such as location of heart-base, killing and so on. If it's not kusala citta now, concerned with the understanding of present realities, it's not pariyatti, let alone satipatthana. > > Thinking about various stories, situations, even ideas about Dhamma, can take us away from the present moment if there's no awareness, no understanding now. Always "thinking of a situation that does not come now"! > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== Dear sarah This reference it seems to the discussion with kenh about killing and heart base seems rather silly. Everyday life is full of akusala thinking and that is quite normal. On a discussion list one of the main aims is clariying points of Dhamma. when i write anything in the more than 2000 posts i have written on dsg every single one was writeen with akusala cittas, billions each time. And maybe 2 or 3 out of thise thousand had a few processes with kusala( maybe not). Neverheless despite these purely akusala posts you have put many of mine : even that one about heart base ( pure akusala big time) in the useful posts. Why? Obviously because it helps to clarify a Dhamma point. Robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (32) #125273 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:33 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear kenh Let us go back to basics. Now there is ken howard, right. But ken h is just a name to refer to the nama and rupa in that stream of elements that began 60 years ago and will end sometime within the next few decades. Is that point ok? The rupa khandha of what is known As kenh Is actually trillions of incredilby tiny kalapas each kalapa condtioned by one of the 4 factors. Each kalapa has the 4 elements plus at keast 4 other types of rupa including color. The kalapa has no space inside , it is indivisible and incredibly tiny. But each kalapa is seperated by space from its neighbours. Is this point ok? Each kalapa lasts for about a trillioth time as flash of lightining and then disappears forever. But while the condtioning factors such as citta or kamma or utu or ahara ( nutrition) are presenr, new Kalaps will arise. Because thos conditioning factors are often similar the new kalapas may look much the same as the old ones. But again they can never be exactly the same. Countless kalaps make up the physical eye and some of those are conditioned by citta: one can detect a glint of lust sometimes in someone, or icy cold, or the flare of rage. And that is just looking at the physical eyes. . Or somone might eat and eat and eat,. You se them after a year and they are fatter. This is because of ahara conditiong rupa. Is this ok? Because kalapas and the factors that condition them are unique we can tell who is who. a. Sujin and my friend Sukin have simllar names. Sometimes people mishear and think someone meant sujin when they said sukin. But when we are all sitting at the table at the foundation no one looking at sukin thinks it is ajarn sujin. Why is that? Well his large black, greying beard, and the turban on his head are a bit of a give away. How dies his beard relate to dhammas. Well the kalapas that make up a beard are condionted to arise. Theyare not condionted to arise in the stream if nama and rupa known as A. Sujin. So one of the 28 types of rupa is feminiity, another is masculinity: they show up so we can tell who is man amd who is women. But of course knowing masculinity directly is another matter, who can know that even it arirses right now. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert K, > > ----- > > RK: correct me if i am wrong, but there are never any beings in the ultimate sense , > whether one knows it or not, right? > ----- > > KH: That's right. > > ---------- > > RK: So how can there ever be killing. > or if there is sometimes killing could you give an example of the actual killing > process. > ---------- > > >KH: When an akusala cetana cetasika experiences the concept of volitional killing that cetana may be called `killing,' but that's the only way killing can ultimately exist, isn't it? (I.e., as a single, momentary dhamma.) > > When you say "the killing process" I think you are referring to the formula, 'the presence of a being that can be killed, an intention to kill and the resulting death of that being.' > > As for an example of that formula in practice, I always find other people's examples hard to follow, and I don't think anyone has ever followed my own attempts at giving one. > > Obviously the formula relates to the conditions that must be present for the [above mentioned] akusala cetana cetasika to arise. The 'being to be killed' must refer to some external khandhas, and the actual intended killing refers (I think) to the akusala strength of the citta which has to be great enough to accomplish the purpose (i.e., to condition the external death citta). > > It's messy, but that's the best I can do at the moment. Corrections welcome. > > Ken H > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125274 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:53 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert K, ---- <. . .> > RK: I know you agree with nina, but what we are trying to establish- looking at this quote is where what i say is different from her. ---- KH: Why should we restrict ourselves to Nina's quotes? My contention is that any and every elucidation of the Dhamma uses concepts purely as conventional designations for paramattha dhammas. The texts talk about a crow, for example, being burnt to death by a necklace of burning straw, and they say that was the result of kamma from a past life when, as a farmer, the crow burnt a cow to death in a similar way. Those are all concepts and they are being used by the texts to describe dhammas – unwholesome kamma patha, the correspondingly unpleasant vipakka cittas they condition, and the correspondingly undesirable sense objects they experience. I feel sure you are insisting those concepts also have some relevance or validity in their own right. And that is where I think you part company with the texts. Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125275 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:32 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert K, ---- <. . .> > RK: She quotes from the commentaty to abhidhamma about the women who was driwned in a future life because she drowned a dog. Again am i saying anything different from nina or this commentary. Of course nina, Buddhaghosa and me all know that in reality there are only streams of evanescent namas and rupas arsing Nd passing away. What we call a dog is merely a designation for the elements right? ------ KH: Right, but why do you also talk about streams? I have always noticed that meditators (people who believe in control over dhammas) like to talk about streams of dhammas. The rest of us (I would have thought} prefer to talk about the presently arisen citta, cetasikas and rupas – or just the present dhamma-arammana. What we call a dog is really a presently arisen dhamma, or group of presently arisen dhammas, isn't it? We use the notion of a stream to explain the conditioned nature, and the conditioning functions, of dhammas, but nothing more than that. There is no stream in ultimate reality. Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125276 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:24 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert K, I hadn't read this when I wrote earlier about streams. And, by the way, I wasn't implying in that post that you were a meditator (professed controller of dhammas). :-) ------------- > RK: Now there is ken howard, right. But ken h is just a name to refer to the nama and rupa in that stream of elements that began 60 years ago and will end sometime within the next few decades. Is that point ok? -------------- KH: It isn't ok with me. Many dhammas have arisen since the latest birth citta and before the next death citta, but there is no stream of such. There is always just the one, present citta and it is never accompanied by previous or future cittas in a way that might be likened to a stream. Therefore I question your use of the term. ---------------------- > RK: The rupa khandha of what is known As kenh Is actually trillions of incredilby tiny kalapas each kalapa condtioned by one of the 4 factors. Each kalapa has the 4 elements plus at keast 4 other types of rupa including color. The kalapa has no space inside , it is indivisible and incredibly tiny. But each kalapa is seperated by space from its neighbours. Is this point ok? ---------------------- KH: I have never thought of a concept as having its own khandhas. Apart from that I am also unsure about a kalapa separated by space from its neighbours. `Neighbours' would imply to me that kalapas themselves arose in kalapas, and I have never heard of that. ------------------------------------ RK: Each kalapa lasts for about a trillioth time as flash of lightining and then disappears forever. But while the condtioning factors such as citta or kamma or utu or ahara ( nutrition) are presenr, new Kalaps will arise. Because thos conditioning factors are often similar the new kalapas may look much the same as the old ones. But again they can never be exactly the same. Countless kalaps make up the physical eye and some of those are conditioned by citta: one can detect a glint of lust sometimes in someone, or icy cold, or the flare of rage. And that is just looking at the physical eyes. . Or somone might eat and eat and eat,. You se them after a year and they are fatter. This is because of ahara conditiong rupa. Is this ok? ------------------ KH: It is quite foreign to me. It sounds like a conventional scientific explanation in which the terms `molecule' and `atom' have been replaced with the terms `kalapa' and `rupa.' ----- RK: Because kalapas and the factors that condition them are unique we can tell who is who. <. . .> ----- KH: I really don't see the point in it. Satipatthana is right understanding of a single conditioned dhamma as it arises in one of the six worlds. Anything else is just a concept (story). Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125277 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:53 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert E, -------- <. . .> > RE: But I think that is what the story is about. The caterpillars were in the place that they were through their own sets of conditions, and the monk had to walk the path for whatever reason, due to whatever set of conditions impinged on him as well, and that is the coming together of foot and caterpillar, due to conditions. If you don't like "foot" or "caterpillar" you can substitute "the corresponding rupas," which you will probably also object to, since there "is no correspondence...?" ---------- KH: That sounds fair enough, but I must admit I don't know what the story was about. As you have already noticed, I have only assumed the monk was an ariyan and incapable of killing. It is said in the Tipitika that the workings of kamma and vipaka in any particular situation are unknowable (acintana) to anyone other than a Buddha, so I think maybe the sutta was about that. ----------------- > RE: An ariyan monk would not cause harm intentionally, even on the conventional level is my point. ------------------ KH: Yes, and I have been arguing there is no real conventional level. ------------------------ > RE: So the harm caused to the caterpillars could not be intentional. ------------------------ KH: In ultimate truth and reality (which is what satipathana is all about) there are no caterpillars, and so there is no squashing of caterpillars, intentional or otherwise. ------------------------------- <. . .> > RE: Those with right view who recognize the truth of anatta non-the-less always behave with harmlessness and respect in conventional activity. There is a reason for that. Perhaps we should discuss why they behave this way, even though there are 'no beings.' -------------------------------- KH: When dosa has been destroyed to the extent that an intention to kill (and other breaches of the precepts) can no longer occur that is the end of the matter. That doesn't mean conventional stories of ariyans killing people cannot be told. There was a case, for example where people thought a certain arahant was speaking with anger (and therefore could not have been an arahant) but it turned out that he simply had a gruff sounding voice. So the story was not true (did not reflect ultimate reality): it couldn't have been. Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125278 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:26 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert K, > > ---- > <. . .> > > RK: I know you agree with nina, but what we are trying to establish- looking at this quote is where what i say is different from her. > ---- > > KH: Why should we restrict ourselves to Nina's quotes? My contention is that any and every elucidation of the Dhamma uses concepts purely as conventional designations for paramattha dhammas. > > The texts talk about a crow, for example, being burnt to death by a necklace of burning straw, and they say that was the result of kamma from a past life when, as a farmer, the crow burnt a cow to death in a similar way. > > Those are all concepts and they are being used by the texts to describe dhammas – unwholesome kamma patha, the correspondingly unpleasant vipakka cittas they condition, and the correspondingly undesirable sense objects they experience. > > I feel sure you are insisting those concepts also have some relevance or validity in their own right. And that is where I think you part company with the texts. > > Ken H Dear kenh If nina or sarah or pt or anyone else can quote anything I have written anytime and clearly show where my beliefs are at odds with the ancient texts I promise never to bring up any post of yours anytime. I will bow down to your understanding and profuse Y thank you as a true knight of the Dhamma . I will keep a notebook with all your quotes and restrict myself to quoting those to anyone who asks what true Dhamma is. You will become my hero and giude in Dhamma. I eargely await the inflow of posts now. I am open to change my entire 30 year outlook on Dhamma. I will close abhidhamma.org and allow true dhamma to rise( or transfer it to you). i just wait for these posts showing how wrong I am. Robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125279 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:43 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > Hi Robert K, > > I hadn't read this when I wrote earlier about streams. And, by the way, I wasn't implying in that post that you were a meditator (professed controller of dhammas). :-) > > ------------- > > RK: Now there is ken howard, right. But ken h is just a name to refer to the nama and rupa in that stream of elements that began 60 years ago and will end sometime within the next few decades. Is that point ok? > -------------- > > KH: It isn't ok with me. Many dhammas have arisen since the latest birth citta and before the next death citta, but there is no stream of such. There is always just the one, present citta and it is never accompanied by previous or future cittas in a way that might be likened to a stream. Therefore I question your use of the term. > > ---------------------- Dear kenh If instead of stream I said 'succession of elements'. Or succession of namas and rupas" would that be ok? Each citta falls away instantly but a new one is condionted to arise by the one that just fell awY right. So there is a neverending succesion of namas and rupas arising right? Robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125280 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] losing sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Larry, When you pop back to check, would you elaborate a little on what you've said here: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Larry Biddinger wrote: > When you are sad you are also standing or sitting or lying down, maybe > walking or running. ... S: What does this mean? In truth isn't it true that sadness is just a mental factor that arises and passes away? We say conventionally that we're in this or that posture, but isn't this just an idea we have? Really, just different elements arising and passing away. ... Whatever the posture, it isn't sad. Mary Carbone is > a group effort, not "just sad". This is the meaning of emptiness. ... Again, what does this mean, the "group effort". Do you mean that what we take for Mary or Larry are really just different mental states at such times? What do you understand by "emptiness"? Looking forward to more discussions with you. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125281 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt after each moment. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Vince, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > >> Ph: I don't understand doubt, or saddha either, in Dhamma terms > > > > I like this from the Maha-satipatthana Sutta: > > > > "When doubt or wavering of the mind is present in him, he knows .... ... S: I think you made a very good point in your posts that doubt is just another element, another reality which can only be known when it arises. If there were no doubt, no wrong view, no ignorance arising, they could never be known, they could never be eradicated. I appreciated your comments. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125282 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:44 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > Hi Robert K, > > I hadn't read this when I wrote earlier about streams. And, by the way, I wasn't implying in that post that you were a meditator (professed controller of dhammas). :-) > > ------------- > > RK: Now there is ken howard, right. But ken h is just a name to refer to the nama and rupa in that stream of elements that began 60 years ago and will end sometime within the next few decades. Is that point ok? > -------------- > > KH: It isn't ok with me. Many dhammas have arisen since the latest birth citta and before the next death citta, but there is no stream of such. There is always just the one, present citta and it is never accompanied by previous or future cittas in a way that might be likened to a stream. Therefore I question your use of the term. > > ---------------------- Dear kenh If instead of stream I said 'succession of elements'. Or succession of namas and rupas" would that be ok? Each citta falls away instantly but a new one is condionted to arise by the one that just fell awY right. So there is a neverending succesion of namas and rupas arising right? Robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125283 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:55 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > ---------------------- > > RK: The rupa khandha of what is known As kenh Is actually trillions of incredilby > tiny kalapas each kalapa condtioned by one of the 4 factors. Each kalapa has the > 4 elements plus at keast 4 other types of rupa including color. > The kalapa has no space inside , it is indivisible and incredibly tiny. But each > kalapa is seperated by space from its neighbours. Is this point ok? > ---------------------- > > KH: I have never thought of a concept as having its own khandhas. > > Apart from that I am also unsure about a kalapa separated by space from its neighbours. `Neighbours' would imply to me that kalapas themselves arose in kalapas, and I have never heard of that. > ----------------- Dear kenh I do not know how you get the idea that kalapas arose in kalapas from what I said? Could you say more, I am lost. And again if sarah ir nina or jon, anyone wants to show how I have got it all wrong, i plead with them to speak out now. Robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125284 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: >> D:one question however is whether it doesn'tt concern the khandha breakdown ( of Dependent Origination ) i.e. temporarily at death or finally (nibbana). > ... >> S: it's all about now, realities now. The Buddha taught us to understand what is real at this very moment. This is the only way that DO, death and so on can be understood. > > Dnew: repeating : how about Buddhagosa's interpretation of D.O. concerning 3 lives ? .... S: When there is understanding of ignorance now, there is also understanding of past ignorance and future ignorance. When there is understanding of attachment now as anatta, there is understanding that past attachment is like this and future attachment will also be like this. So by understanding dhammas now, there is an understanding of momentary death. At the end of this lifetime, conditioned dhammas arising and passing away like now. ... > ... >> D The other is the consideration whether the Buddha distinguished at all between realities and concepts. > .... >? S: Heat is a reality which can be directly known now. 'Butter-jar" is a concept which can only ever be thought about. All the teachings are for understanding, testing out at this moment. > > Dnew: taking jar for khandha ,e.g. the. vinnana jar inlucing eye consciousness, ear consciousness etc. , the jar indeed is a concept, isn't it? ... S: Sorry, I don't follow you. If there is taking the jar for anything real, for something of any kind, it's atta view. Yes, the jar is just an idea, a concept, not any khandha at all. Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125285 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What some says give no indication of view nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob K and all, Op 29-jun-2012, om 4:07 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > Maybe Nina when she explains in beautiful detail about anatta > actually means there is a soul created by God? Or when she said she > apprecited my post about heart base meant that the heart base was > in the brain. ------ N: ;-)) Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125286 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:48 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert K, > > ---- > <. . .> > > RK: She quotes from the commentaty to abhidhamma about the women who was driwned in > a future life because she drowned a dog. Again am i saying anything different > from nina or this commentary. Of course nina, Buddhaghosa and me all know that > in reality there are only streams of evanescent namas and rupas arsing Nd > passing away. What we call a dog is merely a designation for the elements right? > ------ > > KH: Right, but why do you also talk about streams? I have always noticed that meditators (people who believe in control over dhammas) like to talk about streams of dhammas. The rest of us (I would have thought} prefer to talk about the presently arisen citta, cetasikas and rupas – or just the present dhamma-arammana. > > What we call a dog is really a presently arisen dhamma, or group of presently arisen dhammas, isn't it? We use the notion of a stream to explain the conditioned nature, and the conditioning functions, of dhammas, but nothing more than that. There is no stream in ultimate reality. > > Ken H Dear kenh Maybe we can talk about processes of cittas then http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid15.html Nina: ". First there have to be bhavanga-cittas and they are : the atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga), the bhavanga-calana (vibrating bhavanga) and the bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga or last bhavanga-citta before the stream of bhavanga-cittas is arrested). -"" There is a succession of cittas, each conditioning the next right?somtimes bhavanga , sometimes minddoor processes, sometimes sense door processes. And this succession has been going on for each of us for uncountable aeons. Once I was with Khun Sujin and was adimring he countryside and how quaint the oexen were in barn nok Thailand. She said " they might have been your friend last life" It's true. Robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125287 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:59 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 3, 8. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Twos, Ch I, § 5) that the Buddha spoke to the monks about the energy he exerted in order to attain enlightenment. He said that he did not “shrink back from the struggle”. We read that he said: “...’Gladly would I have my skin and sinews and bones wither and my body’s flesh and blood dry up, if only I may hold out until I win what may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human striving.’ By my earnest endeavour, monks, I won enlightenment, I won the unrivalled freedom from the bond.” The commentary to the Jåtakas (I, 17) mentions that the Buddha had spoken the words: “Gladly would I have my skin and sinews and bones wither...” under the Bodhi-tree. The Bodhisatta had put forth heroic energy and his resolution had never faltered to gain the truth for the happiness of other beings. He persevered until the end. When we read about struggle and energy we should not misunderstand these words. We are used to thinking that a self should make an effort for the attainment of the truth. But viriya or energy is not self; it is a type of nåma arising because of conditions. After his enlightenment the Buddha taught the energy of the Middle Way, sammå-våyama (right endeavour) of the eightfold Path. Sammå- våyama is accompanied by sammå-ditthi (right understanding) of the eightfold Path. When sammå-ditthi realizes a characteristic of nåma or rúpa appearing through one of the six doors, there is sammå-våyama already. There is no self who can make an effort to be mindful. The Buddha exhorted his disciples to apply energy and not to be indolent in order to encourage them to develop the eightfold Path. We too should not “shrink back from the struggle” and consider nåma and rúpa over and over again. Even when we are discouraged about the development of right understanding there should be mindfulness of the reality appearing at that moment: nåma or rúpa. Then there is right effort already, since it arises together with right understanding. The more mindfulness and understanding arise, the more phenomena will be known as they are: only nåma and rúpa arising because of conditions. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125288 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:03 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken > > ------------------------------------ > RK: Each kalapa lasts for about a trillioth time as flash of lightining and then > disappears forever. But while the condtioning factors such as citta or kamma or > utu or ahara ( nutrition) are presenr, new Kalaps will arise. Because thos > conditioning factors are often similar the new kalapas may look much the same as > the old ones. But again they can never be exactly the same. Countless kalaps > make up the physical eye and some of those are conditioned by citta: one can > detect a glint of lust sometimes in someone, or icy cold, or the flare of rage. > And that is just looking at the physical eyes. . Or somone might eat and eat and > eat,. You se them after a year and they are fatter. This is because of ahara > conditiong rupa. Is this ok? > ------------------ > > KH: It is quite foreign to me. It sounds like a conventional scientific explanation in which the terms `molecule' and `atom' have been replaced with the terms `kalapa' and `rupa.' > > ----- Ok lets talk about the future. Nasruddin was sitting on the outside of a branch( i think i told this story before) sawing and sawing. A man came past and said that if he keeps cutting when the branch is sawn through Nasruddin will fall to the ground. Nasruddin kept sawing and to his amazement it happened just like that. He ran adter the man wanting to know how he knew the future. Here's my prediction: In response to this post of yours no one ( except the ever patient Rob E) will say anything. Or if they do there wil be these replies. 1. We cant say anything about view. 2. You and kenh mean the same thing( that's my favorite) 3. Only the prsent moment matters everything else is distraction. 4 you are missing the point if you are not aware now while talking about dogs drowning etc. For some semi- hiddem reason no one ( howard amd rob excepted) will ever come out to make a correction of your misconceptions. I must have made some heinous kamma to have to be the one to try to help. God I miss Scott. Robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125289 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kenh3 upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Ken (and Robert) - In a message dated 6/29/2012 1:40:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Robert K, ---- <. . .> > RK: She quotes from the commentaty to abhidhamma about the women who was driwned in a future life because she drowned a dog. Again am i saying anything different from nina or this commentary. Of course nina, Buddhaghosa and me all know that in reality there are only streams of evanescent namas and rupas arsing Nd passing away. What we call a dog is merely a designation for the elements right? ------ KH: Right, but why do you also talk about streams? --------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Why not? Do not namas and rupas interrelate in such a way, as a result of which, for example, you and Robert are distinguishable? If there are no streams of dhammas, what in the world was the Buddha saying when he spoke of beings being heir to their kamma? IMO, it is a mistake to avoid interrelationships among phenomena. ---------------------------------------------------------- I have always noticed that meditators ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: Uh, oh! Guilt by association, hmm? ------------------------------------------------------- (people who believe in control over dhammas) -------------------------------------------------------- HCW: There could hardly be a more false characterization. Teachers of meditation, except for some of those those teaching concentrative, absorptive samatha bhavana, typically caution people to NOT attempt to control dhammas, but to pay attention to what arises and just let it come and go as it will. ------------------------------------------------------------ like to talk about streams of dhammas. The rest of us (I would have thought} prefer to talk about the presently arisen citta, cetasikas and rupas – or just the present dhamma-arammana. What we call a dog is really a presently arisen dhamma, or group of presently arisen dhammas, isn't it? -------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Ken! Why do you speak of groups??? (Oh, yeah, they must be more "Dhamma-true" than "streams"!!!) --------------------------------------------------------------- We use the notion of a stream to explain the conditioned nature, and the conditioning functions, of dhammas, but nothing more than that. There is no stream in ultimate reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------- HCW: The commentaries and the Buddha in the suttas speak of conditioned dhammas as arising, changing while standing, and ceasing. Is that not a "stream"? The Buddha taught anicca as a basic property of all conditioned dhammas. Where is the anicca of a dhamma during it's alleged single moment of existence? How do you explain anicca with respect to a single moment? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H ==================================== With metta, Howard /"Monks, these three are conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, change while remaining is discernible."These are three conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned./ (From the Sankhata Sutta) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125290 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:53 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob K & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > 3. Only the prsent moment matters everything else is distraction. > 4 you are missing the point if you are not aware now while talking about dogs drowning etc. > > For some semi- hiddem reason no one ( howard amd rob excepted) will ever come out to make a correction of your misconceptions. I must have made some heinous kamma to have to be the one to try to help. > God I miss Scott. .... S: ;-)) Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125291 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:36 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125217) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon, Rob K, Ken H, & all. > > RE: As I see it, the issue is whether there is any relation of what we refer to here as concepts to actual dhammas, or are all conventional perceptions and activities not only distorted but completely fictional with the status of pure hallucinations. > =============== J: I think the issue you raise here is something of a red herring :-)). Whether or not there is a 'relation' between dhammas and conventional concepts/objects is beside the point. The Buddha pointed out that there are things that are real in the ultimate sense and that are not known as they truly are, and he declared that only by the development of understanding of these things can there be enlightenment and escape from samsara. The development of that understanding does not involve identifying any particular relationship between dhammas and conventional objects and, as far as I'm aware, the Buddha never asserted such a relationship as part of the development of the path. I would say he was at pains to assert the importance of the development of understanding of dhammas. > =============== > RE: As I see it, real activities exist in the world, but they are really arising and falling away rupas, not as we ordinarily conceive of them, ... > =============== J: I'm wondering what is the basis for the notion that "real activities exist in the world". Is this from the texts, or is it your personal experience? You seem to be positing a 2-tier reality: (a) dhammas and (b) conventional objects/activities. > =============== > RE: If one willfully kills beings, one generates akusala kamma, even if one knows that ultimately there are no beings. The caterpillars are not real as such, but the cittas and rupas that are produced when 'caterpillars are trampled' are real, and they create suffering for the 'caterpillar's cittas' and kamma for he who does the trampling. The blind man was blameless because he was blind, and thus had no choice and no desire to kill with regard to the caterpillars. > =============== J: I'm not sure that 'having no choice' is a relevant consideration. It's purely a matter of whether or not there's the intention to take life. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125292 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kenh3 moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, you wrote: HCW: There could hardly be a more false characterization. Teachers of meditation, except for some of those those teaching concentrative, absorptive samatha bhavana, typically caution people to NOT attempt to control dhammas, but to pay attention to what arises and just let it come and go as it will. D: I am missing the mentioning of right effort (sammā-vāyāma): the effort of avoiding or overcoming evil and unwholesome things, and of developing and maintaining wholesome things with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125293 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:25 pm Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: I agree with pt here. For thinking about a concept to be kusala (including "turning it around, probing it, in order to understand what it represents"), there must probably be some level of understanding > > RE: I think I would agree with that... Although it would seem to me that understanding would develop through such 'probing,' etc., as long as it was kusala. > > > J: ...And of course the object must be one that can usefully be reflected on. What kind of objects would you see as being 'important objects' in this context? > > RE: Well, it's not like I'm an expert at listing kusala objects of contemplation. I would be thinking of any sort of legitimate Dhamma concept or the contemplation of how dhammas behave or their characteristics. That sort of thing, that has the potential to develop pariyatti and develop the path. > =============== J: If we're talking about the contemplation of a conceptual object, then we're talking about samatha bhavana (not vipassana bhavana), right? There are a limited number of objects the contemplation of which support the development of samatha to a high degree, and these objects are specified in the texts (suttas and Vism). They include, for example: certain kasinas; the 'divine abidings' of metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha; the breath; a number of recollections (death, the Buddha, the Dhamma). Contemplation of these objects can only be kusala if there is the knowledge of what is to be contemplated/recollected about the object and why (these kinds of details are found in the Vism). Whereas the idea of 'turning the object around, probing it, in order to understand what it represents' seems to imply a quite different approach (no mention of this kind of thing in Vism, for example). It seems to be more *concentration on* than *contemplation of*. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125294 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:57 pm Subject: Re: What some says give no indication of view jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > TherE seems to be the idea on dsg that whatever anyone says can give no indication of right or wrong view. >=============== J: I think you're talking about me :-)) I was referring to writings/remarks by 3rd parties (i.e., persons who are not participants in the discussion) who are writing/speaking in the context of a subject in which they had an interest as a scientist or academic. A person may express a view or belief in that context that s/he would not be expressed if speaking at a purely personal level. >=============== > RE: This makes it rather pointless to discuss Dhamma imho, i gues nothing more can be said >=============== J: Discussing Dhamma is fine; it's what we're all here for. I suppose we each have our own ways of doing that :-)) Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125295 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kenh3 upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 6/29/2012 7:42:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, you wrote: HCW: There could hardly be a more false characterization. Teachers of meditation, except for some of those those teaching concentrative, absorptive samatha bhavana, typically caution people to NOT attempt to control dhammas, but to pay attention to what arises and just let it come and go as it will. D: I am missing the mentioning of right effort (sammā-vāyāma): the effort of avoiding or overcoming evil and unwholesome things, and of developing and maintaining wholesome things ------------------------------------------------------------ HCW: You are correct about that. But during meditation per se, the typical approach is to see clearly but calmly what arises, and that will already serve to not cling to what is seen as unwholesome and to appreciate what is seen to be wholesome. The meditative approach is a subtle middle-way one, unforced. There are, of course, times at which one is *overcome* by clinging or aversion so strong that only a forceful tearing oneself away will work, but far more often, subtlety wins the moment. ------------------------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter ============================= With metta, Howard The Middle Way: Crossing the Flood /"How, Lord, did you cross the flood (of samsara)?" "Without tarrying, friend, and without struggling did I cross the flood." "But how could you do so, O Lord?" "When tarrying, friend, I sank, and when struggling I was swept away. So, friend, it is by not tarrying and not struggling that I have crossed the flood."/ (From the Ogha-tarana Sutta, SN 1.1) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125296 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kenh3 moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, you wrote: 'You are correct about that. But during meditation per se, the typical approach is to see clearly but calmly what arises, and that will already serve to not cling to what is seen as unwholesome and to appreciate what is seen to be wholesome. The meditative approach is a subtle middle-way one, unforced. There are, of course, times at which one is *overcome* by clinging or aversion so strong that only a forceful tearing oneself away will work, but far more often, subtlety wins the moment.' D: I know what you mean and I agree in particular when the point is to observe the arising and ceasing of phenomena/dhammas . However- and I believe that is in line with your thinking - the mind goes easily astray when the base , especially the attention to the breathing , is lost ( which may be different for the advanced practise). My concern is the 'no-control at all' view , favored by some of our friends.. ;-) with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125297 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kenh3 upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 6/29/2012 8:56:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, you wrote: 'You are correct about that. But during meditation per se, the typical approach is to see clearly but calmly what arises, and that will already serve to not cling to what is seen as unwholesome and to appreciate what is seen to be wholesome. The meditative approach is a subtle middle-way one, unforced. There are, of course, times at which one is *overcome* by clinging or aversion so strong that only a forceful tearing oneself away will work, but far more often, subtlety wins the moment.' D: I know what you mean and I agree in particular when the point is to observe the arising and ceasing of phenomena/dhammas . However- and I believe that is in line with your thinking - the mind goes easily astray when the base , especially the attention to the breathing , is lost ( which may be different for the advanced practise). ---------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, and particularly at the start of a meditation "session", some effort at staying focused on the "anchor" will help cultivate an initial calm. ------------------------------------------------------- My concern is the 'no-control at all' view , favored by some of our friends.. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: I agree with you. if 'control' is taken to refer to volitional influence. No-control in that sense runs counter to much of what the Buddha urged, IMO. (It's a different story if 'control' means "determining" and also if it presumes a controller.) -------------------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125298 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:56 am Subject: Re: kenh3 kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert K, --------- > RK: There is a succession of cittas, each conditioning the next right?somtimes bhavanga , sometimes minddoor processes, sometimes sense door processes. And this succession has been going on for each of us for uncountable aeons. ---------- KH: It hasn't been going on for us or for anyone else. When the texts define the anatta characteristic of a dhamma don't they they say within or without that dhamma there is neither a self "nor anything pertaining to a self"? If I were to say a succession of cittas had been going on "for me" wouldn't I be implying that I, "me" (the self) pertained to those dhammas? If your answer is no, and you say that is not the meaning of "pertaining to" in that context, please explain how else I should understand it. ----------- > RK: Once I was with Khun Sujin and was adimring he countryside and how quaint the oexen were in barn nok Thailand. She said " they might have been your friend last life" It's true. ------------ KH: I wouldn't say it was true or untrue; I would say K Sujin was talking about metta. Being a Dhamma teacher K Sujin naturally uses satipatthana when describing metta, but she was not saying the conditioned dhammas of the past were in any *real* way you (yourself) or pertaining to you (your friends). Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125299 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:06 am Subject: Re: kenh3 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert K, > > --------- > > RK: There is a succession of cittas, each conditioning the next right?somtimes bhavanga , sometimes minddoor processes, sometimes sense door processes. And this succession has been going on for each of us for uncountable aeons. > ---------- > > KH: It hasn't been going on for us or for anyone else. > > When the texts define the anatta characteristic of a dhamma don't they they say within or without that dhamma there is neither a self "nor anything pertaining to a self"? > > If I were to say a succession of cittas had been going on "for me" wouldn't I be implying that I, "me" (the self) pertained to those dhammas? > > If your answer is no, and you say that is not the meaning of "pertaining to" in that context, please explain how else I should understand it. > > ----------- Dear kenh, Seriously do u think I meant there was a self there. If I had said : > > RK: There is a succession of cittas, each conditioning the next right?somtimes bhavanga , sometimes minddoor processes, sometimes sense door processes. And this succession has been going on for for uncountable aeons. " Is that now acceptable? Why do you not want to use any conventional language to explain Dhamma. Robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125300 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:23 am Subject: Re: What some says give no indication of view rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Sory jon I took that quote out of a conversation you were having with Roberte and didnt see the whole context. Have now looked. The scientist i cited and that your comment pertains to, Richard Dawkins is famous for his views on this matter. I have read most of his books and watched interviews with him. If he doesnt really believe what he writes he is a damn good actor. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi RobK > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > TherE seems to be the idea on dsg that whatever anyone says can give no indication of right or wrong view. > >=============== > > J: I think you're talking about me :-)) > > I was referring to writings/remarks by 3rd parties (i.e., persons who are not participants in the discussion) who are writing/speaking in the context of a subject in which they had an interest as a scientist or academic. > > A person may express a view or belief in that context that s/he would not be expressed if speaking at a purely personal level. > > >=============== > > RE: This makes it rather pointless to discuss Dhamma imho, i gues nothing more can be said > >=============== > > J: Discussing Dhamma is fine; it's what we're all here for. I suppose we each have our own ways of doing that :-)) > > Jon > Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125301 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:03 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, ---- <. . .> >> KH: … but why do you also talk about streams? > HCW: Why not? Do not namas and rupas interrelate in such a way, as a result of which, for example, you and Robert are distinguishable? If there are no streams of dhammas, what in the world was the Buddha saying when he spoke of beings being heir to their kamma? IMO, it is a mistake to avoid interrelationships among phenomena. ----- KH: Each dhamma is conditioned by the dhammas that went before it, and that makes citta an heir in an ultimately real sense. But ultimate reality is not like imaginary reality, and being an heir is nothing to get excited about. Ultimately, being an heir is pure dukkha. And that's the whole point of the Dhamma, isn't it? Rather than promote clinging it creates aversion, dispassion and renunciation - leading to nibbana. -------------- >> KH: I have always noticed that meditators > HCW: Uh, oh! Guilt by association, hmm? --------------- KH: :-) I realised that might sound impolite towards the pro-meditation members of DSG, but too late, I had already posted it! ----- <. . .> >> KH: (people who believe in control over dhammas) > HCW: There could hardly be a more false characterization. Teachers of meditation, except for some of those those teaching concentrative, absorptive samatha bhavana, typically caution people to NOT attempt to control dhammas, but to pay attention to what arises and just let it come and go as it will. ------ KH: As you know, the no-control members of DSG see any conventional form of samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana as being lobha-driven and dependent on wrong view. That will never change. :-) ------------ <. . .> >> KH: What we call a dog is really a presently arisen dhamma, or group of presently arisen dhammas, isn't it? HCW: Ken! Why do you speak of groups??? (Oh, yeah, they must be more "Dhamma-true" than "streams"!!!) ------------- KH: The ultimately real universe is a group. It is a group of presently arisen dhammas (one citta, some cetasikas and rupas). You can't get more real than that. ----------------------- <. . .> > HCW: The commentaries and the Buddha in the suttas speak of conditioned dhammas as arising, changing while standing, and ceasing. Is that not a "stream"? ----------------------- KH: That sort of stream would be different from the one you and Robert K have been talking about wouildn't it? And in any case I don't think a dhamma could be called a stream of sub-dhammas, or anything like that. There might be three submoments to every moment, but it there is just the one dhamma that exists throughout them. ----------------- > HCW: The Buddha taught anicca as a basic property of all conditioned dhammas. Where is the anicca of a dhamma during it's alleged single moment of existence? How do you explain anicca with respect to a single moment? ------------------ KH: Anicca is an inherent property of each and every momentarily-existent dhamma. I don't see a problem in that; I don't see how it necessarily needs further explanation. Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125302 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:39 pm Subject: Re: losing sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Mary, I'd like to add a brief reply to these comments of yours as well: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "marycarbone153" wrote: > > > I am mostly calm and happy until I feel I must have a close relationship with other family members. I feel there are strong control issues and I start feeling hurt and unable to converse with them for fear I will hurt their feelings. When this happens I find myself feeling like a hungry ghost. I miss my happiness. .... S: We have a lot of attachment, a lot of expectations when it comes to family members and for they do too. The "strong control issues" are indicative of this attachment. Lots of thinking, lots of hoping, lots of sadness, resentment and dismay as a result of the attachment and expectation. In brief, lots and lots of attachment to oneself and one's feelings. When there is metta, friendliness, kindness, care without clinging, without expectation, there's no grief. Of course, there are bound to be all kinds of mental states, but when we begin to see (Or I might say, when 'right understanding' begins to see), what the real cause of the problems are, i.e. the attachment, gradually there can be the development of detachment, metta and understanding - gradually. This is the way that there will be less sadness, less hurt and less concern about one's own happiness at such times. ... >We, my family suffers from mental illness such as depression, ocd, and holding on to hurts, lacking the ability to move forward. Just went through a visit and I am feeling sad and abused like a hungry ghost. I want my happiness back and would like to be strong enough to protect it and still protect myself and my family from pain. .... S: We think about a lot of stories concerning our family and close friends. Usually, there's very little awareness, very little understanding. The way to help yourself and your family is through the development of awareness of present realities. For example, now there is seeing, there is thinking. The ideas about your family, their mental illness, feeling like a hungry ghost and so on, are just the stories conjured up by the thinking now. When there is awareness, it's apparent that there is no suffering family, no problems of any kind. "Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox." Dhp 1 "Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow. " Dhp 2 I'd be glad to discuss these comments and your feedback further. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125303 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:07 pm Subject: Re: What some says give no indication of view jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Sory jon > I took that quote out of a conversation you were having with Roberte and didnt see the whole context. Have now looked. > > The scientist i cited and that your comment pertains to, Richard Dawkins is famous for his views on this matter. I have read most of his books and watched interviews with him. If he doesnt really believe what he writes he is a damn good actor. > =============== J: I accept what you say. Nonetheless, I think there's a difference between (a) a belief arrived at by, say, intellectual reasoning or academic study and (b) a held view of the kind that constitutes 'ditthi' for the purposes of the teachings. The former is a belief in a relatively superficial sense, while the latter is a matter of (possibly mostly latent) accumulated tendencies. The former may be nothing more than a conclusion based on the available (scientific) evidence for 2 competing theories, while the latter is the momentary arising of long-accumulated tendencies. As an illustration of the difference, we've all heard stories of the person who has proclaimed a certain belief during his/her lifetime but, when death is almost upon him/her, abandons that belief and instead acts exactly as would a person who holds a belief that he/she had previously denied. So I think there's limited value in talking about whether a person who is speaking or writing in another context holds a particular kind of wrong view. Indeed, only a person who has a level of understanding of dhammas can truly know what their own views in fact are. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125304 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] samaadhi. Was Out of our hands? sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Howard, Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >>H: One example is > > the following > > in which a concentration is *to be developed* and so is more than > > what is > > always present: > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > N: The commentary I checked in Thai and it is quite interesting. > Samaadhi: the fact that citta has only one object. The Buddha saw > someone who was declining from having (only) one object. When the > citta has one object, the kammathaana (object of meditation) needs a > wetnurse, therefore the Buddha preached this sutta. > ----- > N: The sutta indicates that one object: the eye, seeing, eyecontact etc. > Kammathaana: not necessarily jhaana of samatha. It seems to indicate, > also at other places, the objects of satipa.t.thaana. Also in this > sutta these objects are mentioned. > A wetnurse: the baby is very dependant on this. > N: my own observation: I think we need the help of samaadhi so that > there is one object at a time that is the object of vipassanaa. .... S: I also thought of another "Samadhi Sutta". Here's a note Han posted before on the role of concentration in this sutta indicating how samadhi and vipassana panna have to develop together. They are yoked together and the characteristic of (right) concentration becomes apparent: "Here also, in AN IV.41 Samaadhi Bhaavanaa Sutta which I had quoted, towards the later part of the sutta, the Buddha said: Bhikkhu Bodhi's Notes on this paragraph: " .... Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125305 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:14 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125247) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: As I think you'll agree, there is a difference between (a) a view actually held (by a person) and (b) a statement made (by a person) that appears to reflect a particular view. > > > > Statements made do not necessarily reflect views actually held. > > RE: I don't get this. If someone sincerely makes a statement of belief, that does reflect their view, doesn't it? > =============== J: In case it wasn't apparent from the context, my comments were in relation to attributing views to a 3rd party who was speaking/writing as, for example, the author of a book on a scientific subject (and so not in terms of his/her understanding of the Dhamma). I don't believe it's possible to know the persons (deeply) held views/convictions from just that 'evidence'. > =============== > J: For example, a scientist who holds the views of a Christian may, having conducted scientific research, put forward 'evidence' that supports or confirms the evolutionist view (a view he does not share). > > RE: I doubt a scientist would put forth evidence that he thought was incorrect. He may think that science and religion do not intersect and reserve his views within each apart from the other, but that is not to say that he does not hold both views, one in the realm of concrete reality, and the other in the realm of spiritual matters. > =============== J: Yes, that is exactly the point I was making. He may, speaking as a scientist, say something that he would not say when speaking of his held beliefs. But a person reading his book may, not appreciating the distinction we are making, incorrectly attribute a held belief to him. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125306 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:11 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125234) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon, Rob K and Ken H. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > [J:] PS It seems to me that the point under discussion between you and KenH is this: When KenH/RobK says that a person who says such and such does/does not have right view, does this indicate right/wrong view on the part of KenH/RobK? > > > For reasons mentioned above, I doubt that the discussion of such an issue will lead anywhere useful. > > RE: I may be missing something, but I don't think that's the issue at stake here. I think the issue, which is indeed the subject of Rob K.'s [and mine if I understand him correctly] and Ken H.'s views, which is: > > Do conventional beings and actions reference the dhammas that are actually arising at the time, although somewhat inaccurately, or are conventional beings and actions a complete fantasy with no relation to dhammas at all. > =============== J: You may be right. I'll leave it to RobK and KenH to let us know which of the summaries of the issue they prefer (if either :-)). Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125307 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Dieter, > D: We need to go into detail. > > Nyantiloka 's Buddhist Dictionary: Thanks for the quotes. I hope I'll have a bit of time soon to try to chase up a few quotes from abhidhamma on sati, sanna, attention, miccha-samadhi, etc. Initially, I relied on definitions of these terms by Thanissaro, Wiki, Buddhist dictionary etc, as they were the most accessible at the time. But finding the abhidhamma definitions was a sort of an eye-opener because they were really precise and sort of surgically dry, thus giving a little less fuel to my imaginative mind to create stories about them to justify my experiences. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125308 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] samaadhi. Was: Out of our hands? nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah and Howard, Op 30-jun-2012, om 11:01 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > Sarah, very good the sutta you refer to and B.B.'s note: meditation directed to the rise and fall of the five > aggregates. Perception of rise and fall brings to > light the characteristic of impermanence, and on the > basis of this the meditator discerns that whatever is > impermanent is suffering and non-self. ------- Returning to the Samaadhisutta: > > > N: The commentary I checked in Thai and it is quite interesting. > > Samaadhi: the fact that citta has only one object. The Buddha saw > > someone who was declining from having (only) one object. When the > > citta has one object, the kammathaana (object of meditation) needs a > > wetnurse, therefore the Buddha preached this sutta. > > ----- > As to wetnurse, the Pali "phaati" is increase, success, advantage, profit, not wetnurse. I asked advice on Jim's Palistudy list, and Ven. Bodhi answered me that this is a confusion with a similar word in Thai. Thus, samaadhi makes the kammathaana succesful. Anyway, we need the help of samaadhi. ------ > > N: The sutta indicates that one object: the eye, seeing, > eyecontact etc. > Now it seems that there are several objects at the same time: it seems we see and hear or see and define what we see at the same time. When there is right awareness, right understanding and right concentration, only one object presents itself, no intrusion of any other object. When visible object presents itself, there is only that object, no person in the visible object. Samaadhisutta is wonderful and reminds us of the present object. I am glad you made us pay attention to it. Nina. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125309 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:13 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 1. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Chapter 4. The Buddha’s Perfections. The Buddha, as a Bodhisatta, endured many lives in order to become a Sammåsambuddha. Had he not made the resolve to become a Buddha he would not have needed to accumulate all the perfections necessary for Buddhahood and he could have attained enlightenment sooner. It was out of compassion that he endured so many lives. When we were on our pilgrimage in India, we also visited the Jeta Grove, the park that Anåthapindika had presented to the Buddha. The Buddha stayed in this Grove for twentyfive rainy seasons. When we were walking around in the Jeta Grove our friend Khun Kesanee said to me: ”He suffered so much for us.” At that moment I did not grasp these words very well. It seemed to me that a Buddha who suffers for other people is like a saviour who could redeem them through his suffering. This is an idea taught in some religions, but strange to the Buddhist teachings. However, now I understad better the meaning of my friend’s words. He endured many lives also for our sake in order to become a Buddha. Through the teachings we come to know the Buddha who is endowed with all the perfections necessary to attain Buddhahood. We come to know him as someone who preached about generosity, about síla (morality), loving kindness, energy, forbearance and the cultivation of all other kinds of wholesomeness. We come to know the Buddha as someone who practised what he preached. We learn about his teaching of the development of wisdom through mindfulness of nåma and rúpa in our daily life. When we practise what the Buddha taught and we are mindful of the realities appearing through the six doors we begin to have some understanding of the Buddha’s wisdom. His wisdom can even today change our life. Without the Buddha’s teachings we would be unable to be mindful of realities, we could not have right understanding of our life. It is evident that the Buddha’s perfections must have had their appropriate conditions. The Buddha could not have attained such wisdom and such purity of virtue immediately, they must have been cultivated for an endlessly long time. Only the right cause can bring about such result. Thus we come to understand that out of compassion for us he endured innumerable lives in order to accumulate the perfections that would make him foremost in wisdom and in all excellent qualities. ***** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125310 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:11 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK, > If nina or sarah or pt or anyone else can quote anything I have written anytime and clearly show where my beliefs are at odds with the ancient texts Better please leave me out of this. If you remember, before when I would question your beliefs, you'd usually get upset, sarcastic, threaten to leave dsg and declare all discussion useless. So I now prefer not to question your beliefs, but just try and understand what you are trying to say on a topic, and leave it at that. Sure, that doesn't give you the sort of feedback you're requesting above, but at least there are no hurt feelings. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Life is a real test. was:Delisting announcement nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah and Rob E, Rob, I appreciate so much your reactions to my quote of Kh Sujin about kusala. Your writing about it reminds me again and again. Op 28-jun-2012, om 16:57 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > She stressed the importance of kusala > > in daily life. Everybody has lots of self love. This can diminish by > > kusala. ....We can be more concerned for > > others. There can be mettaa, helping others. At the moment of kusala > > citta we are free from lobha, dosa and moha. If we do not understand > > this and prefer to only sit alone, in seclusion, we have not > > understood the practice of Dhamma. > > I'm really enjoying this discussion, and the quote above from K. > Sujin is just wonderful - a great exposition of how kusala is > actually helpful and can be seen to help others and reduce > suffering when it is recognized. I like the way that K. Sujin can > sometimes have the expansiveness to express the implications of > kusala, and the practical effect it has. > > Sarah: "Each moment in daily life there can be the practice of > > Dhamma..." > ------ N: You can also find such reminders in her book about the perfections. All kinds of kusala through body, speech and mind are assisting the development of right understanding. Sarah gave a lovely reminder to Lodewijk after a severe test I want to share. Kh Sujin has plans to come to Europe and Lodewijk wanted to do his utmost to have her and several friends here with us in the Hague. I cautioned him since his health is fragile but he was very determined. He had a beautiful plan with lots of Dhamma talk in our home and luncheons. I became already excited seeing Kh Sujin and all friends, but I also realized that this is lobha! Then he got sick and felt that he had to cancel it, rather a shock. Sarah wrote: < She'll be most understanding. She'd also remind us to just understand the dhammas now - no regrets! Anything can happen anytime, but it's all still just seeing, hearing, thinking and so on...> Sarah, we discussed this. Good to be reminded that we never know conditions that make certain things happen. In the ultimate sense there are just dhammas, seeing, hearing, thinking about lovely dreams. Regrets are useless, best to have more understanding of any reality now. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125312 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 1, 2012 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Life is a real test. was:Delisting announcement upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Nina (and Sarah & Robert E) - In a message dated 6/30/2012 9:36:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Sarah gave a lovely reminder to Lodewijk after a severe test I want to share. Kh Sujin has plans to come to Europe and Lodewijk wanted to do his utmost to have her and several friends here with us in the Hague. I cautioned him since his health is fragile but he was very determined. He had a beautiful plan with lots of Dhamma talk in our home and luncheons. I became already excited seeing Kh Sujin and all friends, but I also realized that this is lobha! Then he got sick and felt that he had to cancel it, rather a shock. ================================ I'm sorry to hear of this. It was surely upsetting to both Lodewijk and you. (I think you are a dear, loving couple.) Please wish Lodewijk my very best! With metta, Howard P. S. I believe that when we shall come to see things rightly and become free of craving for what is not, aversion to what is (or might be), and attachment to what is (or might be), we will see that ultimately all is well. /What's the need for a well if water is everywhere? Having cut craving by the root, one would go about searching for what?/ (From the Udapana Sutta) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125313 From: mary carbone Date: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:29 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: losing marycarbone153 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Thank you Sarah Awareness, not such a big word, but has a lot to say. I am now at the Berzin Archives, to find understanding of this important word. Mary To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: sarahprocterabbott@... >S: We have a lot of attachment, a lot of expectations when it comes to family members and for they do too. The "strong control issues" are indicative of this attachment. Lots of thinking, lots of hoping, lots of sadness, resentment and dismay as a result of the attachment and expectation. In brief, lots and lots of attachment to oneself and one's feelings. When there is metta, friendliness, kindness, care without clinging, without expectation, there's no grief. Of course, there are bound to be all kinds of mental states, but when we begin to see (Or I might say, when 'right understanding' begins to see), what the real cause of the problems are, i.e. the attachment, gradually there can be the development of detachment, metta and understanding - gradually. This is the way that there will be less sadness, less hurt and less concern about one's own happiness at such times. ... >We, my family suffers from mental illness such as depression, ocd, and holding on to hurts, lacking the ability to move forward. Just went through a visit and I am feeling sad and abused like a hungry ghost. I want my happiness back and would like to be strong enough to protect it and still protect myself and my family from pain. .... S: We think about a lot of stories concerning our family and close friends. Usually, there's very little awareness, very little understanding. The way to help yourself and your family is through the development of awareness of present realities. For example, now there is seeing, there is thinking. The ideas about your family, their mental illness, feeling like a hungry ghost and so on, are just the stories conjured up by the thinking now. When there is awareness, it's apparent that there is no suffering family, no problems of any kind. "Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox." Dhp 1 "Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow. " Dhp 2 <...> Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125314 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 1, 2012 5:11 am Subject: Fwd: some news from Hanoi nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah and all, I think people here will rejoice in the interest a group of people in Hanoi have. I wrote that if they invite Acharn she may come to Vietnam. I also gave them your address since Tam wondered how to become a member of dsg. Nina. Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Van: Tam Bach > Datum: 30 juni 2012 16:21:33 GMT+02:00 > Aan: Nina van Gorkom , robert kirk > > Onderwerp: some news from Hanoi > Antwoord aan: Tam Bach > > Dear Nina and Robert, > > It has been a while since our last exchanges concerning the > translation of the book on perfections. I haven't progressed much > further than the chapter on "dana", partly because of some work, > and partly because the conditions have arisen for my dhamma friends > to want to understand better the right development of the eight > fold Path. We have found Nina's letters about vipassana very > interesting and helpful for that and decided to translate them > first in order to discuss together. > > At the end of April, we spent about a week nearby the sea in a > small family resort. Everyday, beside enjoying the lovely setting > and delicious meals prepared by our kind host, we would listen to > dhamma talks, read about citta and cetasika, read your letters > together and discuss on all kinds of things, but mostly about the > Dhamma. We were a group of (relatively) young persons who have > quite serious interest in the Buddhadhamma, most have done retreats > in different traditions here and there. The impact of those days on > each one of us varied, but to different degrees, the understanding > of the way panna should be cultivated started to set in. A friend > wrote in a letter to the others about how her mind was becoming > more at peace with its defilements, more understanding, forgiving > and expansive thanks to hearing again and again about how all > cittas arise by their own conditions...Today, in our weekly > meeting, another friend said he felt shaken by the realization that > he'd got it completely wrong as far as satipathana is concerned. It > was a little bit like someone was pulling out a carpet under his > feet... > > So I am just writing this to share with both of you some [little] > development of understanding in a small group of dhamma farers here > in Vietnam. As it has been said in one of your letters, the Middle > way is the right way but it's easy to stray away from it. We feel > fortunate enough to have a glimpse of it through Achaan Sujin's > elaboration of the Buddha's teaching and through your letters. The > remaining work will keep on going according to the conditions of > each of us. We will see... > > Since our knowledge of the Abhidhamma is still very limited, we > will first try to familiarize with the basic concepts of paramatha > dhammas through your excellent book "Abhidhamma in daily life" (in > Vietnamese). > > When I was in Bangkok the last time, I was given the book "a survey > of paramatha dhammas" by Achaan Sujin, which is a real treasure. It > will be next on our list of books to be translated after the one on > perfections. > > Last time, I was so impressed by my two hours with the Dhamma study > group in Bangkok in Achaan Sujin's presence, that I am wondering > whether it is possible to have her come to Vietnam for sometime. I > guess traveling must not be so easy for her at her current age, so > i am just spelling aloud my thoughts and ask for your opinion about > it. > > I will have the chance to be in Bangkok again in late september, > and will do my best to come to DSG's Saturday discussion, I suppose > it is still going on as usual? > > Another question: how to join the DSG online discussion? I've found > the archives of past discussions and have never been able to figure > out how to join it. > > Well, it has been all about us and our need ! I hope at least these > some little news will be conditions to arise mudita in you . And > above all, I hope my e-mail will reach both of you in good physical > and mental health. > > With our thankful hearts and best wishes, > > Yours in Dhamma, > > Tam > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125315 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2012 3:08 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email I see. You just came in on a discussion with ken about heart base and asked me several questions. Something has happened in the meantime. Can you clarify, this seems rather insulting, do you feel i was attacking you here? Perhpas I can ask the moderators to step in and ask you not to make overly personal comments Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobK, > > > If nina or sarah or pt or anyone else can quote anything I have written anytime and clearly show where my beliefs are at odds with the ancient texts > > Better please leave me out of this. If you remember, before when I would question your beliefs, you'd usually get upset, sarcastic, threaten to leave dsg and declare all discussion useless. So I now prefer not to question your beliefs, but just try and understand what you are trying to say on a topic, and leave it at that. Sure, that doesn't give you the sort of feedback you're requesting above, but at least there are no hurt feelings. > > Best wishes > pt > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125316 From: "aungsoeminuk" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2012 3:18 pm Subject: Patisambhidaa aungsoeminuk Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dhamma Friends, When an individual attains arahatta magga it is immediately followed by arahatta phala. Arahatta magga is vijjaa and arahatta phala is vimutti. This is universal for all who attain enlightenment. Pannaa in arahatta magga is not the same for all. Sukkha vipassakaa just attain arahatta magga pannaa. There still is higher attainment. Top of the list is Sammaasambuddhaa. This is followed by pacceka buddhaa. After that agga saavakaa. Then mahaa saavakaa ( 80 disciples_ asiiti mahaa saavakaa). Salaabhinnaa (6 abhinaana attainers), tevijjaa ( 3 vijjaa pannaa of pubbenivaasa, dibbacakkhu, aasavakkhaya) and those who also attain catu-patisambhidaa. There are 4 analytical knowledges. It is called catupatisambhidaa. They are 1. attha patisambhidaa 2. dhamma patisambhidaa 3. nirutti patisambhidaa and 4. patbhaana patisambhidaa These will be discussed in next posts With Unlimited Metta, Dhammarakkhita (Htoo) Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125317 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2012 4:53 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK, > RK: I see. You just came in on a discussion with ken about heart base and asked me several questions. Something has happened in the meantime. It's a bit different. The recent heart base discussion was already the new approach so to speak and it seemed to work quite amicably - you state your belief, I ask you to elaborate, you reply, and I then don't propose a counter-interpretation nor voice any comments whether your interpretation is right or wrong - in that way I don't question the validity of your beliefs anymore. And in that way the discussion on heart base seemed to work - I understood a bit better what you were trying to say, others did hopefully as well, and no dramas. What I was referencing were our discussions before that, on right speech, right view, etc, all of which ended badly the moment I questioned the validity of your beliefs. Hence, if you remember, I stated that I will no longer question your beliefs so as not to upset you. Hence my present request to leave me out of the argument whether your beliefs are right or wrong. > Can you clarify, this seems rather insulting, do you feel i was attacking you here? It had to do with my previous stating that I won't question your beliefs anymore - so I'm now requesting not to ask me to go down that road again. From my discussions with you, I got the impression that you can't take criticism very well, so I don't want to upset you because then I get upset, other people here get upset, etc, and it's just no good. > Perhpas I can ask the moderators to step in and ask you not to make overly personal comments Please do as you see fit. I outlined how badly our discussions used to end before when I would openly question your beliefs. Therefore, I tried to find a solution, which to me seems - not to question your beliefs but just ask to elaborate on them. As for whether I think your beliefs are right or wrong, it seems better to keep it to myself and I don't want to voice it anymore so as not to cause trouble. Hence the request to please keep me out of the argument whether your beliefs are right or not. I certainly appreciate discussing dhamma points with you, but I don't want to be drawn into the argument whether you're right or not. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125318 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 1, 2012 6:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Life is a real test. was:Delisting announcement nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, thank you for your kind post and your concern. But you know, considerations of the Dhamma truly helped us. Of course it was a shock and I was worried about Lodewijk's health problems which are also caused by old age. We can learn from such events. This morning I heard a Thai recording, Kh Sujin was paraphrasing the Expositor about sati and asati. Considerations about birth, old age, sickness and death help us with a sense of urgency, not to be neglectful with the development of understanding. I have heard this often, but by events in life we experience ourselves this becomes more meaningful. In order to be free from the cycle sati and pa~n~naa should be developed again and again. There can be more chanda, wish-to-do, and viriya, the four right efforts. One can see more the disadvantages of akusala, preventing akusala that has not yet arisen. Sati must be aware, not coming to a halt, again and again. Not laying down the burden, not letting go of sati. I think this is a good exhortation. Nina. Op 30-jun-2012, om 17:54 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm sorry to hear of this. It was surely upsetting to both Lodewijk > and you. (I think you are a dear, loving couple.) Please wish > Lodewijk my > very best! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125319 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 1, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Someone of our group remarked that he did not understand why the Thais paid such deep respect at the holy places by bowing down, by incense, candles and flowers, by sticking gold leaf on the stupas and Buddha statues and by chanting texts of the scriptures. He said that he did not have accumulations for these forms of respect. Acharn Sujin explained to him that it is because of satipatthåna, the four Applications of Mindfulness the Buddha taught, that such great respect is paid to the Buddha. When we are mindful of nåma and rúpa we understand more deeply the value of the Buddha’s teachings in our life. We come to know the teacher through the teachings and then we wish to pay respect to him, even though he passed away. In Buddhism one does not follow the teacher with blind faith, but one listens to the teachings, considers them and applies them in one’s life. When we have seen for ourselves that the Dhamma can change our life, we come to know the teacher and we wish to pay respect to him. When we had come to the end of our pilgrimage the same person said: ”Now I wish to return to the holy places and pay respect.” In order to be able to teach the Dhamma which can change people’s lives, the Buddha endured so much during the “four incalculable ages and a hundred thousand aeons” when he was a Bodhisatta (“Visuddhimagga” Ch IX, 26). Forbearance, khanti, is one of the perfections he accumulated. In many Jåtakas one can read about his forbearance and loving kindness. He did not allow hate to corrupt his mind even when his enemies tried to murder him on various occasions. In the “Khantivådi Jåtaka” (no. 313) we read that when he was asked by the king of Kåsi “What do you preach, monk?”, he replied “I am a preacher of patience”. Then the king had him flogged with scourges of thorns and had his hands and feet cut off, but the Bodhisatta did not feel the slightest anger. He practised what he preached. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125320 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 1, 2012 6:55 pm Subject: Time to reflect on Dustrags 1 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, Today I was reflecting on the dust-rag reminders and how manna (conceit) often makes it difficult for all us to hear criticism or blame. Also, I was reflecting on ways of helpful speech. Let me share a few of the quotes and comments I was considering in U.P. under 'Dustrag' and "Speech-right' I wrote before: S:> In the PTS translation (Hare) it is in Bk of 9s, Ch 11 "The Lion Roar", i,11and also in B.Bodhi's "Numerical Discourses of the Buddha", under "Sariputta's Lion's Roar", p231. "Just as, Lord, people throw upon the earth things clean and unclean, dung, urine, spittle, pus and blood, yet for all that the earth has no revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart that is like the earth, vast, exalted and measureless, without hostility and without ill will. However, one in whom mindfulness directed on the body in regard to the body is not present may well hit a fellow monk and leave without an apology. "Just as. Lord, people use water to wash things clean and unclean, things soiled....... "Just as, Lord, fire burns things clean and unclean, things soiled.... "Just as, Lord, the wind blows over things clean and unclean..... "Lord, just as a duster wipes over things clean and unclean, things soiled with dung, urine, pus and blood, yet for all that the duster has no revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart that is like a duster.... "Lord, just as an outcast boy or girl, begging-vessel in hand and clad in rags, enters a village with a humble heart; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart like that of an outcast youth, a heart that is vast, exalted and measureless, without hostility and without ill will...... Metta Sarah ===== [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125321 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 1, 2012 7:07 pm Subject: Time to reflect on Dustrags 2 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, I wrote the following post before: >C: The friend said that if another person points out our (true) > faults, "regardless of this other person's intentions", we should see > it as someone pointing us to treasure. ***** >S:I'm no expert when it comes to the graceful acceptance of criticism (quite the contrary), but I have been reflecting a little over the weekend and I'd like to offer a few comments about aspects I find helpful in this regard. I also learn a lot from my students in this regard -- some can really hear and appreciate criticism which tends to encourage the teacher to help more (and with more goodwill, I find). For others, their inclination is to react and argue which tends to discourage assistance and goodwill. I think that usually, the problem with hearing adverse comments or criticism -- and surely the reason we find it easier to pounce on our perception of the speaker's unwholesomeness-- is mana (conceit) and clinging to self again. As we know conceit "has haughtiness as characteristic, self-praise as function, desire to (advertise self like) a banner as manifestation....". When we hear the adverse comments, the banner can be so apparent, I find. We've discussed before the list of objects on account of which mana arises from the Vibhanga (17) and these include "...pride of gain; pride of being honoured; pride of being respected; pride of prominence; pride of having adherents; pride of wealth; pride of appearance; pride of intelligence; pride of being a knowledgeable authority;..." We also know that because of the attachment to self and finding oneself so important, we cling to the 8 worldly conditions and very seldom see the value of being a 'nobody' or a dust-rag as Sariputta did. On one of our trips to India, K.Sujin talked a lot about the value of reflecting in this very way. When I first heard it, again the banner would start waving and I was aware of how much discomfort there was at considering the value of being a door-mat that anyone could criticise or trample over. Gradually, I've come to appreciate these reminders more and more and to see what precious 'treasure' they are. The following are two passages that Nina wrote in letters about K.Sujin's example of the dustrag on that trip: ***** 1. N:>Khun Sujin had reminded us in India to become like a dustrag which serves for wiping the feet. A dustrag takes up filth and is undisturbed by it. One should become as humble as a dustrag. Sariputta, who could forgive anybody, no matter whether that person treated him in an unjust manner, compared himself with a dustrag. He had no conceit. When right understanding has been developed one will cling less to the self, there will be more humbleness. During the discussions Khun Sujin said again: "I would like to be a dustrag. I follow the way to be one, it is my resolution. Our resolution means that we take action by developing understanding and metta. ". It is beneficial to be reminded again of the dustrag, because humbleness seems to go against our nature. As understanding develops it must lead to letting go of namas and rupas. What we take for self are only impermanent namas and rupas. When their impermanence has been realized can they be as important as before? We read in the "Vinaya" (VI, Parivara, Ch XII) how the monk should behave when he approaches the Sangha when it is convened for the investigation of a legal question. We read: ...he should approach the Order with a humble mind, with a mind as though it were removing dust. He should be skilled about seats and skilled about sitting down. He should sit down on a suitable seat without encroaching on (the space intended for) monks who are Elders and without keeping newly ordained monks from a seat. He should not talk in a desultory fashion, nor about inferior (worldly) matters. Either he should speak Dhamma himself or should ask another to do so, or he should not disdain the ariyan silence... The commentary (the Samantapasadika) adds to "with a mind as though it were removing dust" : "like a towel for wiping the feet." ***** 2. N:> There is conceit if we have an idea that we should be "somebody with great wisdom". We should follow Sariputta's example who compared himself with a dustrag, a useless rag without any value. If we do not consider ourselves "somebody", but rather a "nobody", it will prevent us from pretending, even to ourselves, that we are more advanced than we in reality are. We also need the perfection of truthfulness (sacca) to keep us on the right track. We have to be sincere, truthful to reality. Do we want to avoid being aware of akusala? We have to be aware of it in order to know our true accumulations. If we are not aware of akusala we will take what is akusala for kusala. We need to develop the perfection of equanimity in order to learn to accept with kusala citta the vicissitudes of life. Praise and blame are only realities which arise because of their own conditions, in reality people are not the cause of praise or blame. When people do wrong to us we can develop metta if we see the value of metta. Instead of having aversion about people's bad points we will try to remember their good qualities. If they have none there can be compassion or there can be equanimity. There can be equanimity when we remember that the real cause of unpleasant experiences through the senses is not a person but our own kamma. We should carefully consider the different perfections and then we will be reminded to develop them in our daily life, they are needed in each situation. Khun Sujin said that while she prepares lectures for the radio she needs many perfections, such as metta, patience, energy and equanimity. When there is equanimity she does not feel hurt when people do not want to listen to her or when they criticise her.< ***** Metta Sarah ======= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125322 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 1, 2012 7:09 pm Subject: Time to reflect on Dustrags 3 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, From an earlier message I wrote: >S: When we listen to and consider the teachings, as we read in the Simile of the Snake, they should be 'grasped' in a way which leads to less mana and clinging to self importance rather than the reverse. I'd like to requote two paragraphs from ADL (ch 5) which Larry wisely repeated in a post to a friend as an offering of assistance for a difficult office situation, emphasising the value of understanding phenomena as namas and rupas, not self: -------------------- "All degrees of lobha, be it coarse or more subtle, bring sorrow. We are like slaves as long as we are absorbed in and infatuated by the objects which present themselves through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body-sense and mind. We are not free if our happiness depends on the situation we are in, and the way others behave towards us. One moment people may be kind to us, but the next moment they may be unpleasant. If we attach too much importance to the affection of other, we shall be easily disturbed in mind, and thus become slaves of our moods and emotions. We can become more independent and free if we realize that both we ourselves and other people are only nama and rupa, phenomena arising because of conditions and falling away again. When others say unpleasant things to us there are conditions which cause them to speak in that way, and there are conditions which cause us to hear such words. Other people's behaviour and our reactions to it are conditioned phenonomena which do not stay. At the moment we are thinking about these phenomena, they have already fallen away. The development of insight is the way to become less dependent on the vicissitudes of life. When there is mindfulness of the present moment, we attach less importance to the way people behave towards us." ***** "At the moment we are thinking about these phenomena, they have already fallen away"< Metta Sarah ===== [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125323 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 1, 2012 7:14 pm Subject: Dustrags 4 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, "--Rahula, develop a mind similar to earth, when you develop a mind similar to earth arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold of your mind and stay. Rahula on the earth is dumped, the pure and the impure, excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, the earth does not loathe those, in the same manner develop a mind similar to earth. When you develop a mind similar to earth, arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold of the mind and stay--" From Num, #4072 "As Erik brought up about mana. I would like to discuss and get some inputs about mana cetasika. How many different ways can mana cetasika manifest? Pride, esteem, feeling of superiority, inferiority, equality, etc. I have read about Ven. Sariputta who said that he considered himself as only a dustrag or a floormat. His humbleness is really impressed me. I admire his wisdom, his kindness, his patience and his humbleness. I asked my self do I like to feel as a dustrag, definitely not. At time I thought about how being ariyan feel like. Like a dustrag!?? V.Sariputta is the foremost Bhuddha disciple in wisdom 2nd only to the Buddha. When his mom invited group of monk for offering food, she was really mean and sarcastic to the monks. V.Sariputta was calm and patient. When he was wrongly accused by a young monk, and after the Buddha cleared the accusation he even asked for a pardon from the younger monk if he had offended him in any means. A lot more incidents rgd V.Sariputta's humbleness." Recommended reading: The Life of Sariputta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html **** Metta Sarah ======= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125324 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 1, 2012 7:27 pm Subject: Dustrags 5 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, By mistake, I left out the last line of Num's message: "What's the consequence of mana? Most people like to feel superior, like to be approved." Here are a few more reflections on right speech - and right listening - which I've been considering today. MN 139 "Aranavibhanga Sutta" (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl) 8. "And how, bhikkhus, does there come to be neither extolling nor disparaging but teaching only the Dhamma? When one does not say: 'All those engaged in the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires
have entered upon the wrong way,' but instead: 'The pursuit is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way,' then one teaches only the Dhamma "(1261) Note 1261: That is, extolling and disparaging come about when one frames one's statements in terms of persons, some of whom are praised and others blamed. One teaches "only the Dhamma" when one frames one's statements in terms of the state (dhamma) –the mode of practice-without explicit references to persons. *** From the Kakacupama Sutta (The Simile of the Saw) http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn021.html "Thus, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will be easy to admonish and make ourselves easy to admonish purely out of esteem for the Dhamma, respect for the Dhamma, reverence for the Dhamma.' That's how you should train yourselves." "In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves." "Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you could not endure?" "No, lord." "Then attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw. That will be for your long-term welfare & happiness." Finally for this post: From the Kara.niiyametta Sutta: Kara.niiyam-atthakusalena, yan-ta.m santa.m pada.m abhisamecca: "What should be done by one skilled in goodness, who has comprehended the state of peace" sakko ujuu ca suujuu ca, suvaco cassa mudu anatimaanii, "he ought to be able (sakko), straight (ujuu), and upright (ca suujuu), easy to speak to (suvaco), meek (mudu), without conceit (anatimaanii)" **** S: A quote of Nina's I appreciated: "But I realize that conceit arises very often, unknowingly. When thinking of he and me there is already likely to be conceit, even now while I am writing. But when thinking only of the Dhamma there will also be kusala cittas. Thus, we should be like a dust rag" S: Lots of conceit arising unknowingly all day for us all. It can be known when it appears and we can reflect again and again on the dust rag. Metta Sarah ======= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125325 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 1, 2012 7:34 pm Subject: Dustrags 6 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, For the last post in this series, I've also selected the following extract from Nina's book 'Cetasikas', ch. 'The Three Abstinences' which I posted before. It contains so many helpful reminders: >"We may not kill or steal, but we may be forgetful as far as our speech is concerned. A word which can harm ourselves and others is uttered before we realize it. We tend to disparage others because we are attached to talking and want to keep the conversation going. When we are slighted by someone else we are easily inclined to answer back. Our self-esteem may be hurt and then we want to defend ourselves. Most of the time we think of ourselves; we want to be honoured and praised. We forget that it is beneficial to abstain from wrong speech and to speak with kusala citta. How often in a day do we speak with kusala citta? The Buddha reminded the monks about right speech. We should remember what the Buddha said about right speech in the Parable of the Saw (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 21): * Monks, when speaking to others you might speak at a right time or at a wrong time; monks, when speaking to others you might speak according to fact or not according to fact; monks, when speaking to others you might speak gently or harshly; monks, when speaking to others you might speak about what is connected with the goal or about what is not connected with the goal; monks, when speaking to others you might speak with a mind of friendliness or full of hatred. Herein, monks, you should train yourselves thus: 'Neither will our minds become perverted nor will we utter an evil speech, but kindly and compassionate will we dwell, with a mind of friendliness, void of hatred; and we will dwell having suffused that person with a mind of friendliness; and, beginning with him, we will dwell having suffused the whole world with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, widespread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence.' This is how you must train yourselves, monks." * When we give in to wrong speech there is no kindness and consideration for other people's welfare. When there is loving kindness there is no opportunity for wrong speech. We can and should develop loving kindness in daily life and we should at the same time see the value of observing morality, otherwise loving kindness cannot be sincere. Many wholesome qualities have to be developed together with right understanding so that eventually defilements can be eradicated." ***** Metta, Sarah ====== [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125326 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2012 11:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, all, you wrote: "Someone of our group remarked that he did not understand why the Thais paid such deep respect ..." It has a lot to do as well with knowing (and overcoming ) one's conceit (mana) .. with Metta Dieter Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125327 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, Op 1-jul-2012, om 15:45 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > you wrote: > > "Someone of our group remarked that he did not understand why the > Thais > paid such deep respect ..." > > It has a lot to do as well with knowing (and overcoming ) one's > conceit > (mana) .. > ------- N: Yes, to be humble minded. Respect, admiration for the Buddha's teachings. The more one understands what he taught, the more one respects the teachings. ------- Nina. Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125328 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dustrags 5 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, thank you for the series. Good to read old texts, one forgets. Op 1-jul-2012, om 11:27 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > MN 139 "Aranavibhanga Sutta" (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl) > > 8. "And how, bhikkhus, does there come to be neither extolling nor > disparaging but teaching only the Dhamma? When one does not say: > 'All those engaged in the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose > pleasure is linked to sensual desires…have entered upon the wrong > way,' but instead: 'The pursuit is a state beset by suffering, > vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way,' then one > teaches only the Dhamma "(1261) > > Note 1261: That is, extolling and disparaging come about when one > frames one's statements in terms of persons, some of whom are > praised and others blamed. One teaches "only the Dhamma" when one > frames one's statements in terms of the state (dhamma) –the mode of > practice-without explicit references to persons. ------- N: This is really very good. Leave out names dropping as I wrote before. Unless it is in order to rejoice in someone else's kusala, anumodana daana. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125329 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, you wrote: (S: it's all about now, realities now. The Buddha taught us to understand what is real at this very moment. This is the only way that DO, death and so on can be understood. D: repeating : how about Buddhagosa's interpretation of D.O. concerning 3 lives ?) .... S: When there is understanding of ignorance now, there is also understanding of past ignorance and future ignorance. When there is understanding of attachment now as anatta, there is understanding that past attachment is like this and future attachment will also be like this. So by understanding dhammas now, there is an understanding of momentary death. At the end of this lifetime, conditioned dhammas arising and passing away like now. D: Not cleasr to me what you mean. Ignorance/avijja is defined by not knowing the 4 Noble Truths. How can you understand what you still do not fully know and only get by deepest penetration/path training ? To understand the reality (the All) now one needs to have established the foundation of mindfulness (Satipatthana) .. and to understand what is beyond the All, one practises Jhana. I.e. the 7th and 8th step as part of the (sila-)-samadhi training are the means to develop understanding (panna) D.O. can be understood to refer to lifetimes (samsara) and to the process going on here and now.. The chain of D.O. is not interrupted ..when there is death there is birth , at least until the chain is not broken. To use a metaphor with cards :game over, the cards are newly shuffled ..starting again with different cards but with the same system.. I like to emphasise the misunderstanding that avijja and sankhara ( first and second ) has been finalized / belong to the previous life , they belong to inumerable previous moments .. we possibly agree on that.. (?) (D The other is the consideration whether the Buddha distinguished at all between realities and concepts.> .... >? S: Heat is a reality which can be directly known now. 'Butter-jar" is a concept which can only ever be thought about. All the teachings are for understanding, testing out at this moment.> > Dnew: taking jar for khandha ,e.g. the. vinnana jar inlucing eye consciousness, ear consciousness etc. , the jar indeed is a concept, isn't it?) ... S: Sorry, I don't follow you. If there is taking the jar for anything real, for something of any kind, it's atta view. Yes, the jar is just an idea, a concept, not any khandha at all. D: I played with your example of concept 'butter- jar' . ( Who would consider to dedicate a soul to a jar, not to talk about the butter?;-) ) Khandha is a grouping, an abstract for specified dhammas . A cart may fit better to distinguish reality and concept : no reality on it's own , only the cart's wheels, the cart's axis ..etc. Likewise Vinnaya Khandha = eye consciousness, ear consciousness etc. with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125330 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 2:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the hou... upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Dieter (and Sarah) - In a message dated 7/1/2012 11:37:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: D: I played with your example of concept 'butter- jar' . ( Who would consider to dedicate a soul to a jar, not to talk about the butter?;-) ) Khandha is a grouping, an abstract for specified dhammas . A cart may fit better to distinguish reality and concept : no reality on it's own , only the cart's wheels, the cart's axis ..etc. Likewise Vinnaya Khandha = eye consciousness, ear consciousness etc. =========================== For some reason, Sarah and some others, despite the clear meaning of 'khandha' as "group"/"collection"/"aggregate", call individual namas and rupas "khandhas," a usage I find odd but their usage nonetheless. So, whether it "grates on the ear" or not (LOL!), the usage should be understood and accepted for the sake of good conversation. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (10) #125331 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 3:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the hou... moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard (and Sarah), you wrote: For some reason, Sarah and some others, despite the clear meaning of 'khandha' as "group"/"collection"/"aggregate", call individual namas and rupas "khandhas," a usage I find odd but their usage nonetheless. So, whether it "grates on the ear" or not (LOL!), the usage should be understood and accepted for the sake of good conversation D:the background of this discussion is the distinction between reality and concept ,the importance often emphasised here. It began when Sarah disagreed with Nyanatiloka's defintion of khandha (=abstract) with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (10) #125332 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 5:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the hou... upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Dieter (and Sarah) - In a message dated 7/1/2012 1:29:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard (and Sarah), you wrote: For some reason, Sarah and some others, despite the clear meaning of 'khandha' as "group"/"collection"/"aggregate", call individual namas and rupas "khandhas," a usage I find odd but their usage nonetheless. So, whether it "grates on the ear" or not (LOL!), the usage should be understood and accepted for the sake of good conversation D:the background of this discussion is the distinction between reality and concept ,the importance often emphasised here. It began when Sarah disagreed with Nyanatiloka's defintion of khandha (=abstract) ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, I understand that. My point, possibly tangential to your primary topic of conversation, is that a well-established way of speaking is a convention that needs to be accepted for purposes of communication. (I also think it is important, I hasten to add, that speech conventions effect manner of thinking, and so, it is important to be very much aware of one's speech conventions.) ------------------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (10) #125333 From: "lbidd2" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 11:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] losing lbidd2 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah, Ahhhh, the eternal debate. Okay, let's jump in: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > When you pop back to check, would you elaborate a little on what you've said here: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Larry Biddinger wrote: > > > When you are sad you are also standing or sitting or lying down, maybe > > walking or running. > ... > S: What does this mean? In truth isn't it true that sadness is just a mental factor that arises and passes away? We say conventionally that we're in this or that posture, but isn't this just an idea we have? Really, just different elements arising and passing away. Larry: First, let's go to the "idea". Yes, all the words are ideas. They are actually little rupas, but let's not get into that. I'm just using ordinary language in an attempt to be helpful. A > ... > Whatever the posture, it isn't sad. Mary Carbone is > > a group effort, not "just sad". This is the meaning of emptiness. > ... > Again, what does this mean, the "group effort". Do you mean that what we take for Mary or Larry are really just different mental states at such times? What do you understand by "emptiness"? L: Any experience is a group of many elements. In actuality no element defines the group. So the group is empty of a definition. In that sense the group is somewhat open. However, usually we bunch everything together and say this is it. "Sad" for example. > > Looking forward to more discussions with you. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > L: Good to see you Sarah. What do you understand by "emptiness"? Larry Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125334 From: "lbidd2" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 11:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] losing lbidd2 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina, So good to see you. But it seems like I've only been gone a minute. Here's a comment on one sentence: Nina: "We can learn from such experiences. You are unhappy and you wish to be happy, but this cannot occur on command. Exactly this is what the Buddha taught us: thoughts, feelings, material phenomena, they all arise because of the appropriate conditions and they do not belong to a self, they are anattaa, non-self." Larry: Any strong mental state that arises, something that we are obviously identifying with, just a glance and we can see quite simply, it's not me. The pause that refreshes;))) But letting go can be difficult. Larry Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125335 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 1:17 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear pt Thanks for the detailed explanation, I dont really remember our earlier conversations, I think I joined dsg in 1999 and si many me,bers have come and gone, imost of them I don't even remember the name. I i took you wrongly in your earlier post,for some reason I thought it looked a bit off topic re the Dhamma point. Sorry about that. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi RobK, >I will no longer question your beliefs so as not to upset you. You can't take criticism very well, so I don't want to upset you > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125336 From: "lbidd2" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 2:36 pm Subject: Re: Larry back! lbidd2 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon, I sent you a reply hours ago but it got lost in the www. Anyway, it's good to see you too. I haven't been doing much with dhamma studies but the dhamma of course is always here and it brings to mind the studies everyday. Hope to participate from time to time but it looks like you guys are saying everything that needs to be said. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Larry > > Great to see you back. Was wondering only the other day what you were up to these days (in Dhamma terms, I mean). Any reflections to share? > > Hoping you stick around for a while. > > Jon > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125337 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 3:28 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken and Howard (and Rob K.) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > KH: Right, but why do you also talk about streams? > --------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Why not? Do not namas and rupas interrelate in such a way, as a result > of which, for example, you and Robert are distinguishable? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ...like to talk about streams of dhammas. The rest of us (I would have > thought} prefer to talk about the presently arisen citta, cetasikas and rupas > or just the present dhamma-arammana. > > What we call a dog is really a presently arisen dhamma, or group of > presently arisen dhammas, isn't it? > -------------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Ken! Why do you speak of groups??? (Oh, yeah, they must be more > "Dhamma-true" than "streams"!!!) > --------------------------------------------------------------- What is exciting to me is to hear Ken H. talk about "a dog" really being "a presently arisen dhamma, or group of...dhammas." This is the kind of correspondence I've been advocating - that sure there is no "dog" per se, but there are the dhammas that correspond to 'dog' or that we recognize or translate as 'dog.' So the concept 'dog' does relate to dhammas, just imprecisely. > We use the notion of a stream to explain the conditioned nature, and the > conditioning functions, of dhammas, but nothing more than that. There is no > stream in ultimate reality. But the stream relates to more than just general conditioning, it relates to the pattern that is created by the arising of a series of different sets of conditions. a leads to be leads to c. That is what causes it to be a stream. I think it's important to acknowledge not only the individual nature of dhammas, but they way they cause their "domino effect" down the line to further dhammas. Each domino is an individual event, but the line of dominoes does create a series of conditions that goes from the first one to the last one, and that does constitute a stream through which the series of conditions plays out. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > The commentaries and the Buddha in the suttas speak of conditioned > dhammas as arising, changing while standing, and ceasing. Is that not a > "stream"? "Changing while standing" is indeed most important since it shows anicca even within the individual dhamma. There is not even a moment in reality that is static, but is constantly in a process of dynamic change. Conditions are not static either but are part of the changing reality. > The Buddha taught anicca as a basic property of all conditioned > dhammas. Where is the anicca of a dhamma during it's alleged single moment of > existence? How do you explain anicca with respect to a single moment? Well if you allow for 'changing while standing' within the individual dhamma, you can have anicca take place on the smallest micro-level. The dhamma is said to have three phases, arising, functioning and falling away. According to the Buddha, as you quote, 'changing while standing' would exist even within that micro-moment, and the commentarial version seems to echo that. It seems to me that anicca - change - would exist in all three phases - changing while arising, changing while standing/functioning, changing while falling away. Obviously in arising there is a point where it changes to whatever the function is that is performed, and there is a point where that changes to falling away, so there is actually change throughout the entire process. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125338 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 3:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] losing nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Larry, good to see that you are active. Op 2-jul-2012, om 3:22 heeft lbidd2 het volgende geschreven: > Larry: Any strong mental state that arises, something that we are > obviously identifying with, just a glance and we can see quite > simply, it's not me. The pause that refreshes;))) But letting go > can be difficult. ----- N: Yeah, yeah, you are right. It is pa~n~naa's job, not ours. "We" could never manage that. But it all goes very, very gradually. Many life times. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125339 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 4:05 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 3 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, In his last life, when he had become a Buddha, his cousin Devadatta wanted to harm him and hurled a stone at him. The Buddha’s foot was pierced by a stone splinter. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (Sagåthå vagga, Ch I, part 4, § 8, The splinter) that although the pains were “keen and sharp”, he bore them “mindful and discerning, nor was he cast down”. When he was lying down in the “lion’s posture”, devas came to see him and expressed their admiration for his endurance: “See! what a wondrous creature (Någa) is the worshipful recluse Gotama! It is by this wondrous nature that he endures, mindful and discerning, the pains that have arisen in his body, keen and sharp, acute, distressing and unwelcome, and that he is not cast down....” He who could endure anything exhorted the monks to have endurance. We read in the “Discourse on all the Cankers” (Middle Length Sayings I, no 2) about the getting rid of all the cankers. The Buddha said concerning the cankers to be got rid of by endurance: “And what, monks, are the cankers to be got rid of by endurance? In this teaching, monks, a monk, wisely reflective, is one who bears cold, heat, hunger, thirst, the touch of gadflies, mosquito, wind and sun, creeping things, ways of speech that are irksome, unwelcome; he is of a character to bear bodily feelings which, arising, are painful, acute, sharp, shooting, disagreeable, miserable, deadly. Whereas, monks, if he lacked endurance, the cankers which are destructive and consuming might arise. But because he endures, therefore these cankers which are destructive and consuming are not. These, monks, are called the cankers to be got rid of by endurance.” Can we endure “ways of speech that are irksome, unwelcome”? Are we always forbearing with regard to other people and patient with ourselves? We tend to be impatient sometimes when we do not notice a rapid progress in understanding. We should accumulate patience and the way to do this is mindfulness of nåma and rúpa. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125340 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 5:08 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert E (and Howard), ---- >>> KH: What we call a dog is really a presently arisen dhamma, or group of > presently arisen dhammas, isn't it? >>> >> HCW: > Ken! Why do you speak of groups??? (Oh, yeah, they must be more > "Dhamma-true" than "streams"!!!) >> > RE: What is exciting to me is to hear Ken H. talk about "a dog" really being "a presently arisen dhamma, or group of...dhammas." This is the kind of correspondence I've been advocating - that sure there is no "dog" per se, but there are the dhammas that correspond to 'dog' or that we recognize or translate as 'dog.' So the concept 'dog' does relate to dhammas, just imprecisely. ---- KH: I might want to retract that statement. :-) In a Dhamma discussion when we say we have experienced the sight of a dog, or the sound of a dog (etc), we know we have really only experienced visible object or audible object, don't we? That's what I meant by, "What we call a dog is really a dhamma." (Forget that I said, "a presently arisen dhamma," that might have been misleading.) Also, when we talk about the dog itself (or any other sentient being) we are really talking about a momentary arising of the five khandhas, aren't we? That's what I meant by "a group dhammas." (Again, forget that I said, "presently arisen dhammas.") So I hope you can see I wasn't talking about a series or "stream" of dhammas. According to my understanding, there is no stream. One momentary set of five khandhas arises and falls away, and that is all there is to a sentient being, or dog. A completely new set of five khandhas is conditioned to take it's place, and so there is a completely new dog. (Or a completely new "that which we call a dog.") Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125341 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 5:12 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > ... > Dear kenh > I do not know how you get the idea that kalapas arose in kalapas from what I said? > Could you say more, I am lost. > And again if sarah ir nina or jon, anyone wants to show how I have got it all wrong, i plead with them to speak out now. > =============== J: Well, if it's any comfort, I of course don't think you've got it all wrong! But apart from that comment, I'm afraid I can't say much because, as I explained in an earlier post, I'm not really able to see what the Dhamma issue/s being discussed between you and KenH is/are. The discussion you and he are having seems to be at a somewhat personal level, and I prefer to leave you both to sort out any disagreement. I look forward to the time when you agree to shake hands on your differences and get back to the discussion of actual Dhamma issues :-)) Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125342 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 5:21 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > KH: It is quite foreign to me. It sounds like a conventional scientific explanation in which the terms `molecule' and `atom' have been replaced with the terms `kalapa' and `rupa.' > > > > ----- > RK: Ok lets talk about the future. Nasruddin was sitting on the outside of a branch( i think i told this story before) sawing and sawing. A man came past and said that if he keeps cutting when the branch is sawn through Nasruddin will fall to the ground. Nasruddin kept sawing and to his amazement it happened just like that. He ran adter the man wanting to know how he knew the future. > ... > For some semi- hiddem reason no one ( howard amd rob excepted) will ever come out to make a correction of your misconceptions. I must have made some heinous kamma to have to be the one to try to help. > =============== J: Well I appreciate the good intentions ;-)), but somehow the misconceptions you are wanting to point out are not being formulated clearly enough for me to come in on the thread and comment. (For example, your allegory about Nasruddin as a response to KenH's comment.) > =============== > God I miss Scott. > =============== J: Pondering this one. Did he share your views on certain topics (I don't recall any specific occasion)? Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125343 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 5:35 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" > > J: Well I appreciate the good intentions ;-)), but somehow the misconceptions you are wanting to point out are not being formulated clearly enough for me to come in on the thread and comment. (For example, your allegory about Nasruddin as a response to KenH's comment.) > > > ============== > Hi RobK > I look forward to the time when you agree to shake hands on your differences and get back to the discussion of actual Dhamma issues :-)) > > Jon Dear jon I dont see it as personal at all. It is to me a clear discusion on Dhamma points. Take this recent post below. I give a paragraph of explanation and Ken comes back saying he doesnt see it as Dhamma ( i paraphrase. See his exact comments below). No one else coments at all( as i predicted re nasruddin) leaving members to conclude whatever they conclude. Why diont some of the members who know Abhidhamma come in and say" omg robk, you silly twat, you have reaaly missed the boat." And then give more details and try to help me know what i have got wrong. Robert P.s I liked scotts writing because it was clear what he meant atall times. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken > > ------------------------------------ > RK: Each kalapa lasts for about a trillioth time as flash of lightining and then > disappears forever. But while the condtioning factors such as citta or kamma or > utu or ahara ( nutrition) are presenr, new Kalaps will arise. Because thos > conditioning factors are often similar the new kalapas may look much the same as > the old ones. But again they can never be exactly the same. Countless kalaps > make up the physical eye and some of those are conditioned by citta: one can > detect a glint of lust sometimes in someone, or icy cold, or the flare of rage. > And that is just looking at the physical eyes. . Or somone might eat and eat and > eat,. You se them after a year and they are fatter. This is because of ahara > conditiong rupa. Is this ok? > ------------------ KH: It is quite foreign to me. It sounds like a conventional scientific explanation in which the terms `molecule' and `atom' have been replaced with the terms `kalapa' and `rupa.' > > ----- Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125344 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 5:35 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi KenH and RobE Butting in if I may. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E (and Howard), > ... > KH: So I hope you can see I wasn't talking about a series or "stream" of dhammas. According to my understanding, there is no stream. One momentary set of five khandhas arises and falls away, and that is all there is to a sentient being, or dog. A completely new set of five khandhas is conditioned to take it's place, and so there is a completely new dog. (Or a completely new "that which we call a dog.") > =============== J: Rob E, I'm just wondering if what you're referring to is the fact that each citta is related to one that preceded it and one that follows it by contiguity condition (among others). So are you perhaps saying that cittas that are so related can be regarded as being in a 'stream'. The texts do refer to stream (Pali: 'sota') in a number of contexts including 'bhavanga-sota' to refer to the bhavanga cittas that arise continuously throughout life except when interrupted by sense-door impressions. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125345 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 6:01 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob K --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" > > > > J: Well I appreciate the good intentions ;-)), but somehow the misconceptions you are wanting to point out are not being formulated clearly enough for me to come in on the thread and comment. (For example, your allegory about Nasruddin as a response to KenH's comment.) > > > > I look forward to the time when you agree to shake hands on your differences and get back to the discussion of actual Dhamma issues :-)) > > > > Jon > > RK: > Dear jon > I dont see it as personal at all. It is to me a clear discusion on Dhamma points. Take this recent post below. I give a paragraph of explanation and Ken comes back saying he doesnt see it as Dhamma ( i paraphrase. See his exact comments below). > > No one else coments at all( as i predicted re nasruddin) leaving members to conclude whatever they conclude. Why diont some of the members who know Abhidhamma come in and say" omg robk, you silly twat, you have reaaly missed the boat." > And then give more details and try to help me know what i have got wrong. > =============== J: Just a guess, but he could be referring (in part) to the statement "Countless kalaps make up the physical eye". His comment could be that this could be read as meaning that according to the teachings the physical eye breaks down into rupas, in the same way that modern science holds that the eye breaks down into atoms and molecules. Of course, he may be taking your comments too literally (I wouldn't have made the same assumption as KenH myself). But you may have not caught his drift, in which case it's always possible to seek clarification (or ignore completely). > =============== > RK: P.s I liked scotts writing because it was clear what he meant atall times. > =============== J: Yes, never any doubt about meaning (or sentiment :-)) Jon > =============== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken > > > > ------------------------------------ > > RK: Each kalapa lasts for about a trillioth time as flash of lightining and > then > > disappears forever. But while the condtioning factors such as citta or kamma > or > > utu or ahara ( nutrition) are presenr, new Kalaps will arise. Because thos > > conditioning factors are often similar the new kalapas may look much the same > as > > the old ones. But again they can never be exactly the same. Countless kalaps > > make up the physical eye and some of those are conditioned by citta: one can > > detect a glint of lust sometimes in someone, or icy cold, or the flare of > rage. > > And that is just looking at the physical eyes. . Or somone might eat and eat > and > > eat,. You se them after a year and they are fatter. This is because of ahara > > conditiong rupa. Is this ok? > > ------------------ > KH: It is quite foreign to me. It sounds like a conventional scientific > explanation in which the terms `molecule' and `atom' have been replaced with the > terms `kalapa' and `rupa.' > > > > ----- Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125346 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi KenH and RobE > > Butting in if I may. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > > Hi Robert E (and Howard), > > ... > > KH: So I hope you can see I wasn't talking about a series or "stream" of dhammas. According to my understanding, there is no stream. > > =============== > > J: Rob E, I'm just wondering if what you're referring to is the fact that each citta is related to one that preceded it and one that follows it by contiguity condition (among others). > > > Jon Dear jon Here is a post I wrote a week ago back where the visuddhimaga talks about the stream of continuity. Again no one commented and yet when i mention a few days ago the stream of arisind and passing elements, there are objections. "The two together: since any given states are produced without interrupting the [cause-fruit] continuity of any given combination of conditions, the whole expression "dependent origination" (paþicca-samuppáda) represents the middle way, which rejects the doctrines, "He who acts is he who reaps" and "One acts while another reaps" (S II 20), and which is the proper way described thus, "Not insisting on local language and NOT OVERRIDDING NORMAL USAGE" (M III 234)"" "And with a STREAM of continuity there is neither identity nor otherness. For if there were absolute identity in a STREAM of continuity, there would be no forming of curd from milk. And yet if there were absolute otherness, the curd would not be derived from the milk. And so too with all causally arisen things. Or this one , please read. Are there errors in this, surely it would be helpful to me and possibly others to know. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/120682 Robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125347 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 6:34 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > =============== > > J: Just a guess, but he could be referring (in part) to the statement "Countless kalaps make up the physical eye". His comment could be that this could be read as meaning that according to the teachings the physical eye breaks down into rupas, in the same way that modern science holds that the eye breaks down into atoms and molecules. > > Of course, he may be taking your comments too literally (I wouldn't have made the same assumption as KenH myself). But you may have not caught his drift, in which case it's always possible to seek clarification (or ignore completely). > > > =============== Dear jon, Thanks for coming in on this discussion. Please continue. Obviously atoms and molecules have no existence at all, they are merely invented ideas of scientists. But kalapas are real. Of course physical eye is merely a concept with no existence, but we need to refer to body and eye and heart etc to be able to discuss Dhamma. Nina writes in her book on physical phenomena about foetus and body ( of course she knows they are merely designations) yet for some reason when I use terms like eye or body there are objections. I would certainly be very happy if ken clarifies more, maybe to reply to this post, and on the other posts I made. Nina: "The unborn being in the womb, for example, needs the right temperature in order to grow. Throughout life the element of heat produces rupas. Nutrition is another factor which produces rupas. When food has been taken by a living being it is assimilated into the body and then nutrition can produce rupas. Some of the groups of rupa of our body are produced by kamma, some by citta, some by temperature and some by nutrition. "" > > > =============== > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > RK: Each kalapa lasts for about a trillioth time as flash of lightining and > > then > > > disappears forever. But while the condtioning factors such as citta or kamma > > or > > > utu or ahara ( nutrition) are presenr, new Kalaps will arise. Because thos > > > conditioning factors are often similar the new kalapas may look much the same > > as > > > the old ones. But again they can never be exactly the same. Countless kalaps > > > make up the physical eye and some of those are conditioned by citta: one can > > > detect a glint of lust sometimes in someone, or icy cold, or the flare of > > rage. > > > And that is just looking at the physical eyes. . Or somone might eat and eat > > and > > > eat,. You se them after a year and they are fatter. This is because of ahara > > > conditiong rupa. Is this ok? > > > ------------------ > > KH: It is quite foreign to me. It sounds like a conventional scientific > > explanation in which the terms `molecule' and `atom' have been replaced with the > > terms `kalapa' and `rupa.' > > > > > > ----- > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125348 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 7:40 pm Subject: Re: Fwd: some news from Hanoi sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina ,Tam & all, Nina, thank you for sharing Tam's lovely letter with her very keen interest in the Dhamma. Tam, a year or so ago, I remember meeting a young Vietnamese lady at the Foundation with good English and a very keen interest and appreciation of the Dhamma. Afterwards we chatted for a while. I wonder if it was you? It sounds as though you have a very good group and we'd love to hear from any of you here. Pls let me know if you have any difficulty subscribing. I think Ajahn Sujin would be interested to meet your group in Vietnam. When you visit Thailand at the end of Sept, you can discuss it with her. I'd love to visit you all with her. ***** It's beginning to look as if K.Sujin may really be visiting Lukas and his friends in Poland in early September. Jon and I, a few friends from Thailand including Betty, possibly Ann from Canada, Alberto from Italy will be joining. We will also have a few days together in London, discussions with Alan W and anyone else there. If anyone would like to be kept informed of details with a view to joining us in Poland, London or both, please let me or Lukas know. In Poland, we'll be based in the countryside in tourist accommodation. Lukas can also arrange free or very inexpensive accommodation for anyone with budgetary difficulties who'd like to attend. We'd love to meet anyone from DSG there. Metta Sarah ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and all, > I think people here will rejoice in the interest a group of people in > Hanoi have. Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125349 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 7:47 pm Subject: Re: Patisambhidaa sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Htoo, I'm so glad you're starting a new series. I think you'll have to add some more detail and English translation for most of us. Which texts are you referring to these days, or just your memory? Do you have any textual detail about sukkha vipassakaa attaining arahatta magga which we may not have considered. I'll look forward to the detail you add about the salaabhinnaa, tevijja a and so on. Metta Sarah p.s so glad to see you can post directly again. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "aungsoeminuk" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > When an individual attains arahatta magga it is immediately followed by arahatta phala. Arahatta magga is vijjaa and arahatta phala is vimutti. This is universal for all who attain enlightenment. Pannaa in arahatta magga is not the same for all. > Sukkha vipassakaa just attain arahatta magga pannaa. There still is higher attainment. Top of the list is Sammaasambuddhaa. This is followed by pacceka buddhaa. After that agga saavakaa. Then mahaa saavakaa ( 80 disciples_ asiiti mahaa saavakaa). > Salaabhinnaa (6 abhinaana attainers), tevijjaa ( 3 vijjaa pannaa of pubbenivaasa, dibbacakkhu, aasavakkhaya) and those who also attain catu-patisambhidaa. <...> Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125350 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 8:10 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob K, As you're looking for more feedback... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > ---------------------- > > > RK: The rupa khandha of what is known As kenh Is actually trillions of incredilby > > tiny kalapas each kalapa condtioned by one of the 4 factors. Each kalapa has the > > 4 elements plus at keast 4 other types of rupa including color. > > The kalapa has no space inside , it is indivisible and incredibly tiny. But each > > kalapa is seperated by space from its neighbours. Is this point ok? > > ---------------------- > > > > KH: I have never thought of a concept as having its own khandhas. ... S: I'd like to question the first line: "The rupa khandha of what is known As kenh Is actually trillions of incredibly tiny kalapas...." It just doesn't make sense to me. Each kalapa consists of at least 8 inseparable rupas as you know. Each of these rupas is rupa khandha, arising and falling away instantly. For example, the colour/visible in each kalapa arises and falls away regardless of whether it's ever seen. Each colour rupa is different from each of the other rupas in the kalapa and is different from the colour rupa in each other kalapa. This is what rupa khandha refers to - each rupa which arises and falls away, never the same. What is seen and what is heard is taken for Ken H. Rupas cannot arise alone. They arise in kalapas, groups of at least 8 rupas, separated from each other by pariccheda akasa rupa (space). Let me know if you disagree or if I've missed something. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125351 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 8:24 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK, > I i took you wrongly in your earlier post,for some reason I thought it looked a bit off topic re the Dhamma point. Sorry about that. No worries, sorry for not being more clear the first time around. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125352 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 8:35 pm Subject: notes from Alberto sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Lukas & all, My turn to forward a Dhamma letter - this time from Alberto. He just gave me permission to share it. **** A:>Hi Lukas (and Sarah), I'm glad you remember my Patthana posts, I was also favourably impressed by many of your posts, also those you posted recently. Looking forward to see you - Alberto In the Patthana and Paticcasamuppada the Buddha explains the arising and falling away of paramattha dhammas, why and how they arise just to fall away in the next instant. He differentiated vipaka dhammas from kusala or akusala ones and from those which are abyakata, neither results nor cause for results, which means rupa and kiriya and also nibbana. The Buddha explained the behaviour of paramattha dhammas in great detail because they are extremely difficult to see, not because they are easy. He explained them at such great lenght because, in order to be overcome, they must be fully, directly understood, not because ordinary concepts are enough to understand. It may seem that it was the Buddha that had great understanding of dhammas, but one must bear in mind that there is only one paramattha dhamma that can understand all the others, either vipaka, kusala or akusala and abyakata. It was a paramattha dhamma arising (ad falling away, and then arising just to fall away again...) because of conditions, because of all the parami he had accumulated for aeons, and that his panna wasn't really his or anybody else's. The Buddha directly knew that too, and that even panna, with all its powerful and blissful side effects, was just a sankhara dhamma, anicca, dukkha and anatta, and he knew that he was free from them all, either kusala, akusala or abyakata. **** 2nd note from Alberto: A:> I've also realized that I didn't used the term abyakata properly, since it belongs to the first triplet of the Abhidhamma (kusala dhammas, akusala dhammas, and abyakata dhammas), while I was referring to the third triplet (vipaka dhammas, vipakadhamma dhammas, and navipaka navipakadhamma dhammas). Also a better translation for vipaka dhammas I think would be dhammas which are resultants, rather then dhammas which are results; since all sankhara dhammas, of all jatis and all rupas as well, are conditioned, i.e. the results of conditions. While vipakadhamma dhammas are the dhammas which are cause (another meaning of dhamma, as in dhammapatisambhida, understanding of the causes) for vipaka. Navipaka navipakadhamma dhammas are all the other paramattha dhammas not included in the first two categories. Alberto Reply | Messages in this Topic (4) #125353 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 9:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kenh3 upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/2/2012 1:28:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: > HCW: > The commentaries and the Buddha in the suttas speak of conditioned > dhammas as arising, changing while standing, and ceasing. Is that not a > "stream"? "Changing while standing" is indeed most important since it shows anicca even within the individual dhamma. There is not even a moment in reality that is static, but is constantly in a process of dynamic change. Conditions are not static either but are part of the changing reality. > The Buddha taught anicca as a basic property of all conditioned > dhammas. Where is the anicca of a dhamma during it's alleged single moment of > existence? How do you explain anicca with respect to a single moment? Well if you allow for 'changing while standing' within the individual dhamma, you can have anicca take place on the smallest micro-level. ---------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, indeed - but then it is not "a single moment". That is my point. Even a single dhamma is a (micro)process. Change is ongoing, and "time marches on". ------------------------------------------------------------ The dhamma is said to have three phases, arising, functioning and falling away. According to the Buddha, as you quote, 'changing while standing' would exist even within that micro-moment, and the commentarial version seems to echo that. It seems to me that anicca - change - would exist in all three phases - changing while arising, changing while standing/functioning, changing while falling away. ---------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, like a wave that increases in amplitude, levels off (and peaks), and decreases in amplitude, changing constantly. (Reminiscent of a quantum which is both particle and wave.) ------------------------------------------------------------ Obviously in arising there is a point where it changes to whatever the function is that is performed, and there is a point where that changes to falling away, so there is actually change throughout the entire process. -------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Exactly! ================================ With metta, Howard /Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "'The world, the world' it is said. In what respect does the word 'world' apply? "Insofar as it disintegrates_]_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.082.than.html#fn-2) monk, it is called the 'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye disintegrates. Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates. "The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate... "The nose disintegrates. Aromas disintegrate... "The tongue disintegrates. Tastes disintegrate... "The body disintegrates. Tactile sensations disintegrate... "The intellect disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at the intellect consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the intellect disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates. "Insofar as it disintegrates, it is called the 'world.'"/ (The Loka Sutta) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125354 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 9:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kenh3 upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Robert (K) and Jon, and all - In a message dated 7/2/2012 4:02:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear jon Here is a post I wrote a week ago back where the visuddhimaga talks about the stream of continuity. Again no one commented and yet when i mention a few days ago the stream of arisind and passing elements, there are objections. ============================= Robert, unless I am falsely remembering, I did comment, and in a positive manner. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125355 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 9:55 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email That sounds perfect to me sarah.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Rob K, > > As you're looking for more feedback... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > ---------------------- > > > > RK: The rupa khandha of what is known As kenh Is actually trillions of incredilby > > > tiny kalapas each kalapa condtioned by one of the 4 factors. Each kalapa has the > > > 4 elements plus at keast 4 other types of rupa including color. > > > The kalapa has no space inside , it is indivisible and incredibly tiny. But each > > > kalapa is seperated by space from its neighbours. Is this point ok? > > > ---------------------- > > > > > > KH: I have never thought of a concept as having its own khandhas. > ... > > S: I'd like to question the first line: "The rupa khandha of what is known As kenh Is actually trillions of incredibly tiny kalapas...." > > It just doesn't make sense to me. > > Each kalapa consists of at least 8 inseparable rupas as you know. Each of these rupas is rupa khandha, arising and falling away instantly. For example, the colour/visible in each kalapa arises and falls away regardless of whether it's ever seen. Each colour rupa is different from each of the other rupas in the kalapa and is different from the colour rupa in each other kalapa. This is what rupa khandha refers to - each rupa which arises and falls away, never the same. > > What is seen and what is heard is taken for Ken H. Rupas cannot arise alone. They arise in kalapas, groups of at least 8 rupas, separated from each other by pariccheda akasa rupa (space). > > Let me know if you disagree or if I've missed something. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125356 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2012 10:11 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email In case it easn't clear, i mean what you wrote sounds perfect.Thanks for clarifying my clumsy phrasing Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > That sounds perfect to me sarah.. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > Dear Rob K, > > > > As you're looking for more feedback... > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > > RK: The rupa khandha of what is known As kenh Is actually trillions of incredilby > > > > tiny kalapas each kalapa condtioned by one of the 4 factors. Each kalapa has the > > > > 4 elements plus at keast 4 other types of rupa including color. > > > > The kalapa has no space inside , it is indivisible and incredibly tiny. But each > > > > kalapa is seperated by space from its neighbours. Is this point ok? > > > > ---------------------- > > > > > > > > KH: I have never thought of a concept as having its own khandhas. > > ... > > > > S: I'd like to question the first line: "The rupa khandha of what is known As kenh Is actually trillions of incredibly tiny kalapas...." > > > > It just doesn't make sense to me. > > > > Each kalapa consists of at least 8 inseparable rupas as you know. Each of these rupas is rupa khandha, arising and falling away instantly. For example, the colour/visible in each kalapa arises and falls away regardless of whether it's ever seen. Each colour rupa is different from each of the other rupas in the kalapa and is different from the colour rupa in each other kalapa. This is what rupa khandha refers to - each rupa which arises and falls away, never the same. > > > > What is seen and what is heard is taken for Ken H. Rupas cannot arise alone. They arise in kalapas, groups of at least 8 rupas, separated from each other by pariccheda akasa rupa (space). > > > > Let me know if you disagree or if I've missed something. > > > > Metta > > > > Sarah > > ===== > > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125357 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2012 1:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the hou... moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard (Nina and Sarah) you wrote: For some reason, Sarah and some others, despite the clear meaning of 'khandha' as "group"/"collection"/"aggregate", call individual namas and rupas "khandhas," a usage I find odd but their usage nonetheless. So, whether it "grates on the ear" or not (LOL!), the usage should be understood and accepted for the sake of good conversation (D:the background of this discussion is the distinction between reality and concept ,the importance often emphasised here. It began when Sarah disagreed with Nyanatiloka's defintion of khandha (=abstract) ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, I understand that. My point, possibly tangential to your primary topic of conversation, is that a well-established way of speaking is a convention that needs to be accepted for purposes of communication. (I also think it is important, I hasten to add, that speech conventions effect manner of thinking, and so, it is important to be very much aware of one's speech conventions.) D: One final point :the Buddha khandhas used it in a similar way ( Sarah quoted canonical sources) I commented that - as far as I know - the suttas do not distinguish between realities and concept/abstract , so by khandhas, as a way of speech, the individual namas and rupas are meant . However Abhidhamma, in a deeper exploration , introduced this disctinction and here we need to keep in mind -as you said - " that speech conventions effect manner of thinking, and so, it is important to be very much aware of one's speech conventions." If no other evidence comes up , I think one may conclude the issue this way.. with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (10) #125358 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2012 3:48 am Subject: Re: Life is a real test. was:Delisting announcement epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and Rob E, > Rob, I appreciate so much your reactions to my quote of Kh Sujin > about kusala. Your writing about it reminds me again and again. :-) I am glad - it was a very helpful quote! Rob E.: > > I'm really enjoying this discussion, and the quote above from K. > > Sujin is just wonderful - a great exposition of how kusala is > > actually helpful and can be seen to help others and reduce > > suffering when it is recognized. > ------ > N: You can also find such reminders in her book about the > perfections. All kinds of kusala through body, speech and mind are > assisting the development of right understanding. > > Sarah gave a lovely reminder to Lodewijk after a severe test I want > to share. ... > ...but it's all still just seeing, hearing, thinking and so on...> > Sarah, we discussed this. Good to be reminded that we never know > conditions that make certain things happen. In the ultimate sense > there are just dhammas, seeing, hearing, thinking about lovely > dreams. Regrets are useless, best to have more understanding of any > reality now. Thank you for sharing your personal story about this. It is a very good reminder that we can see that there are only dhammas when these kinds of things happen. It really can take us out of the story, into the reality of this moment, and I think that is inherently less painful. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125359 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2012 4:35 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob K., Ken H., and all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear kenh > Let us go back to basics. > > Now there is ken howard, right. But ken h is just a name to refer to the nama and rupa in that stream of elements that began 60 years ago and will end sometime within the next few decades. Is that point ok? > > The rupa khandha of what is known As kenh Is actually trillions of incredilby tiny kalapas each kalapa condtioned by one of the 4 factors. Each kalapa has the 4 elements plus at keast 4 other types of rupa including color. > The kalapa has no space inside , it is indivisible and incredibly tiny. But each kalapa is seperated by space from its neighbours. Is this point ok? > > Each kalapa lasts for about a trillioth time as flash of lightining and then disappears forever. But while the condtioning factors such as citta or kamma or utu or ahara ( nutrition) are presenr, new Kalaps will arise. Because thos conditioning factors are often similar the new kalapas may look much the same as the old ones. But again they can never be exactly the same. Countless kalaps make up the physical eye and some of those are conditioned by citta: one can detect a glint of lust sometimes in someone, or icy cold, or the flare of rage. And that is just looking at the physical eyes. . Or somone might eat and eat and eat,. You se them after a year and they are fatter. This is because of ahara conditiong rupa. Is this ok? > > > Because kalapas and the factors that condition them are unique we can tell who is who. Look, as far as I am concerned you have given a very thorough, concise and sensible explanation of how rupas/kalapas arise in such a way that conventional physical reality has the appearance and properties that it displays. It makes more sense to say that the rupas of "eating and eating" result in the rupas of a "larger" person than to say that rupas and eating have no relation to each other at all, because eating and person are just concepts. When we see a skinny person who then eats and eats and gets fatter, we are not seeing the rupas as they arise. We are not in touch with the true reality of how that takes place. But we do see a kind of result of all those rupas arising. A different set of kalapas are coming up, with different properties because of what has gone in the kalapas before. And that makes sense. The arahat can see the process on the paramatha level, the ordinary person only sees conventional results. But there still is a relation between those conventional results and the paramatha dhammas that have arisen and passed. You outline what I think is the thorniest point of contention within this group. Some people think that conventional reality is just nonsense, hallucination made out of whole imaginary cloth, with no relation to dhammas at all. Others, like yourself, see a sensible relation between what actually arises and what we experience every day. You understand that there is a difference between the concept of a person and the namas and rupas that arise to create that person's temporary processes, but you don't see them as totally unrelated. Others do. For those who see paramatha dhammas in a totally separate world with no relation at all to everyday actions and occurrences, it is impossible to make good sense of the suttas, in which the Buddha often talks about the conventional actions and results that we experience every day. Sometimes he also talks about the paramatha level and sometimes he talks somewhere inbetween. But all that he says relates to dhammas and to the path. It is a continuum of undestanding, rather than a divided understanding. I think we can all agree with Ken H's formulation of kamma patha below. Then the question is whether we can say "there is a being to be killed" while at the same time understanding that there is not a "being per se," but a being that appears and changes at each moment based on the continuous arising and falling away of dhammas. Best, Rob E. ---------------------------- Ken H.: > > When you say "the killing process" I think you are referring to the formula, 'the presence of a being that can be killed, an intention to kill and the resulting death of that being.' ---------------------------- Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125360 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 3, 2012 5:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kenh3 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob K, thank you for this wonderful collection of quotes from VS. I keep it in my files. So clearly explained, Nina. Op 2-jul-2012, om 10:02 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > Or this one , please read. > Are there errors in this, surely it would be helpful to me and > possibly others to know. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/120682 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125361 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2012 8:25 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Rob K., Ken H., and all. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > You outline what I think is the thorniest point of contention within this group. Some people think that conventional reality is just nonsense, hallucination made out of whole imaginary cloth, with no relation to dhammas at all. Others, like yourself, see a sensible relation between what actually arises and what we experience every day. You understand that there is a difference between the concept of a person and the namas and rupas that arise to create that person's temporary processes, but you don't see them as totally unrelated. Others do. > > For those who see paramatha dhammas in a totally separate world with no relation at all to everyday actions and occurrences, it is impossible to make good sense of the suttas, in which the Buddha often talks about the conventional actions and results that we experience every day. Sometimes he also talks about the paramatha level and sometimes he talks somewhere inbetween. But all that he says relates to dhammas and to the path. It is a continuum of undestanding, rather than a divided understanding. > > I think we can all agree with Ken H's formulation of kamma patha below. Then the question is whether we can say "there is a being to be killed" while at the same time understanding that there is not a "being per se," but a being that appears and changes at each moment based on the continuous arising and falling away of dhammas. > > Best, > Rob E. > > ---------------------------- > > Ken H.: > > > When you say "the killing process" I think you are referring to the formula, 'the presence of a being that can be killed, an intention to kill and the resulting death of that being.' > > ---------------------------- >Hi, Robert (K) and Jon, and all - In a message dated 7/2/2012 4:02:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear jon Here is a post I wrote a week ago back where the visuddhimaga talks about the stream of continuity. Again no one commented and yet when i mention a few days ago the stream of arisind and passing elements, there are objections. ============================= Robert, unless I am falsely remembering, I did comment, and in a positive manner. With metta, Howard ==== dear Howard and Rob epstein Yes indeed I should have acknowledged that. One of the useful outcomes of this latest series of posts is that I appreciate more your interest in Abhidhamma, which seems to be growing... Robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125362 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2012 8:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: kenh3 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Thanks Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob K, > thank you for this wonderful collection of quotes from VS. I keep it > in my files. So clearly explained, > Nina. > Op 2-jul-2012, om 10:02 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > > > Or this one , please read. > > Are there errors in this, surely it would be helpful to me and > > possibly others to know. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/120682 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125363 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2012 12:15 pm Subject: Ken H on hols kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi all, I will be on holiday in Phuket from 5 July to 22 July. This time last year when I was there I couldn't sign on to DSG or to Yahoo. I don't know why that was, but I should have more luck this year with my own computer instead of relying on the hotel and internet cafes. Even if I can't sign on to post a message I will at least be able to read the posts. See you when I see you! Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125364 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2012 3:40 pm Subject: Re: Ken H on hols sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H, Have a good trip and suggest to Sue that you combine it with a Bkk get together next time! No excuses for not posting on holiday these days! Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > I will be on holiday in Phuket from 5 July to 22 July. > > This time last year when I was there I couldn't sign on to DSG or to Yahoo. I don't know why that was, but I should have more luck this year with my own computer instead of relying on the hotel and internet cafes. > > Even if I can't sign on to post a message I will at least be able to read the posts. > > See you when I see you! > > Ken H > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125365 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2012 6:48 pm Subject: Re: Ken H on hols rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear kenh, I just got off a bus, south of manila, and it had great internet connection the whole trip. The bus is still like the first time I was here20 years ago, broken seats and music blaring But internet trumps comfort ! Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > > Have a good trip and suggest to Sue that you combine it with a Bkk get together next time! > > No excuses for not posting on holiday these days! > > Metta > > Sarah > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > > I will be on holiday in Phuket from 5 July to 22 July. > > > > This time last year when I was there I couldn't sign on to DSG or to Yahoo. I don't know why that was, but I should have more luck this year with my own computer instead of relying on the hotel and internet cafes. > > > > Even if I can't sign on to post a message I will at least be able to read the posts. > > > > See you when I see you! > > > > Ken H > > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125366 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 3, 2012 10:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ken H on hols upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Have a great trip, Ken! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/2/2012 10:15:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi all, I will be on holiday in Phuket from 5 July to 22 July. This time last year when I was there I couldn't sign on to DSG or to Yahoo. I don't know why that was, but I should have more luck this year with my own computer instead of relying on the hotel and internet cafes. Even if I can't sign on to post a message I will at least be able to read the posts. See you when I see you! Ken H [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125367 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Life is a real test. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E, Op 2-jul-2012, om 19:48 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > Thank you for sharing your personal story about this. It is a very > good reminder that we can see that there are only dhammas when > these kinds of things happen. It really can take us out of the > story, into the reality of this moment, and I think that is > inherently less painful. ------- N: You formultaed in these sentences the essence of the Dhamma. Our normal daily life consists of stories, this is so natural. Then we learn to see through these stories: there are only dhammas. Indeed it helps to cope with difficult events, not taking them so personal. This is taught in the suttas all the time. That is why I find suttas very important and most helpful. They deal with common events and problems in daily life and help me to see what is really true. You formulated this so well in another post: ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125368 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 12:07 am Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 4 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, During our journey, when we had to sit in the bus for eighteen hours (and this happened now and then), we might have liked to change the situation. Don’t we wish to change the situation when things are not as we would like them to be? However, right understanding of nåma and rúpa is more important than the fact whether a situation is pleasant or unpleasant. The experience of pleasant of unpleasant objects through the senses is vipåka and how could we change vipåka that is the result of kamma? Life is nåma and rúpa arising because of conditions and there is no self who could control nåma and rúpa. During our pilgrimage there were many reminders to consider nåma and rúpa and at such moments there were less conditions for akusala cittas with aversion. Nobody in our group complained during the long journey in the bus. Once we were sitting in the dark during the small hours of the morning and we still had not reached the hotel where we were supposed to stay overnight. One of the ladies asked the Thai monk who was with us whether he would preach about endurance. The monk, who never showed any tiredness and preached all day long to us with great vigour, stood up and preached about endurance. We should have endless patience with regard to the development of wisdom. The “Visuddhimagga” (Ch I, 135) gives us an example of a monk who attained enlightenment on his death-bed. It is not difficult to attain enlightenment when the right conditions have been cultivated, but it is difficult to be mindful over and over again, with great patience and perseverance, during all our activities. We read that the Elder Mahå-Sa"ngharakkhita was lying on his death-bed and had not attained enlightenment. The young bhikkhu who was his attendant said that it would be a disappointment for many people who had come to see him if he would die an ordinary man. We read that the Elder said: “...’Friend, thinking to see the Blessed One Metteyya [1], I did not try for insight. So help me to sit up and give me the chance.’ He helped the Elder to sit up and went out. As he went out the Elder reached Arahatship and he gave a sign by snapping his fingers. The Order assembled and said to him ‘Venerable sir, you have done a difficult thing in achieving the supramundane state in the hour of death’- ‘That was not difficult, friends. But rather I will tell you what is difficult. Friends, I see no action done (by me) without mindfulness and unknowingly since the time I went forth’....” ---------- 1) The Bodhisatta Metteyya will be the next Buddha. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125369 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 3:08 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello RobertE, all, >RE: You outline what I think is the thorniest point of contention >within this group. Some people think that conventional reality is >just nonsense, hallucination made out of whole imaginary cloth, with >no relation to dhammas at all. >=========================================== Those who say that "conventional reality" doesn't exist - I dare them to avoid drinking and eating anything. After all, refrigerator, Cereals, cup, table, fork, knives, etc, do not exist! I hope that whenever one drives, one remembers that traffic lights, intersection, other cars, pedestrians do exist. The thing is: Just because it is possible to analyze something as being made of parts, it doesn't make "whole" and less real. It *just* means that whole can be taken apart. That is all. It is an insult to intellect to reject the whole merely because it can be taken apart. If something can be taken apart, it means that it HAS TO EXIST in order to be taken apart in the first place. What doesn't exist is something that is constant (nicca), ultimately happy (sukha), and thing-in-itself (Atta) with the former features. With this, we do not have problem with conventional actions. With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125370 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 3:50 am Subject: Re: kenh3 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H, and Rob K. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert K, > > ---- > <. . .> > > RK: I know you agree with nina, but what we are trying to establish- looking at this quote is where what i say is different from her. > ---- > > KH: Why should we restrict ourselves to Nina's quotes? My contention is that any and every elucidation of the Dhamma uses concepts purely as conventional designations for paramattha dhammas. > > The texts talk about a crow, for example, being burnt to death by a necklace of burning straw, and they say that was the result of kamma from a past life when, as a farmer, the crow burnt a cow to death in a similar way. > > Those are all concepts and they are being used by the texts to describe dhammas – unwholesome kamma patha, the correspondingly unpleasant vipakka cittas they condition, and the correspondingly undesirable sense objects they experience. > > I feel sure you are insisting those concepts also have some relevance or validity in their own right. And that is where I think you part company with the texts. Well, the question is more towards how do we know dhammas, rather than what is a concept. What I mean is that what we see in everyday life either has some relation to dhammas - gives us a clue if we understand in the right way, or not - no relation at all, as I think you would say. I think you would say that concepts refer to dhammas but they do not reflect them. I would say that concepts 'reflect' dhammas imperfectly, rather than say nothing about them at all. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125371 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 2:49 am Subject: Re: Dustrags 4 philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah and all I would like to say again that posting this sort of thing and other pleas for kind and gentle speech indicates, in my opinion, a subtle belief in the ability to influence other people's behaviour. If people like me often have wrong speech, or make disparaging comments, that's just the way conditions are playing out, and if you try to discourage it will only succeed in demonstrating a belief in the control of the dhammas of others and end up alienating the wrong speech-er. I quote this from the SPD series: "We may believe that we want to be without defilements, but when defilements actually arise it seems that we wish to have them. We may have conceit, we may find ourselves important, or we may be jealous. Someone else may say that such defilements should be eradicated, that one should rejoice in someone else's happiness or that one should have loving-kindness towardes a disagreeable person, but are we able to follow such advice? People who want to be angry, who want to have contempt for others, who want to be arrogant or jealous, cannot follow the adivce to cultivate wholesomeness. This shows that the eradication of defilements cannot occur immediately, that it can only be accomplished very gradually." (end of passage) I *enjoy* disliking the people I dislike, I *enjoy* writing rude things to them. That's not good news for me, but it's the way it is. You don't have to worry, because I won't be participating here and as long as me and other rude speakers are absent, it should be all right here and you won't have to post this sort of series! I repeat from the above: "People who want to be angry, who want to have contempt for others, who want to be arrogant or jealous, cannot follow the advice to cultivate wholesomeness." Pushing people who are behaving badly in the direction of wholesomeness by posting about Rahula and the 4 elements or things about the benefits of metta etc is not really helpful. Just likely to alienate them. Why must there be such clinging to pleasant behaviour at DSG, I just don't get it, why can't there be more understanding? Anyways, just wanted to post the above as a reminder for the next time there is an outbreak of bad behaviour and anyone feels the need to try to change others' behaviour. Better to have some bad behaviour than a belief in the controllability of dhammas. I'll be gone again as soon as this is posted, so won't be able to respond further. Phil p.s I have come to realize that my problem here is not that I can't stand criticism or disagreement about Abhidhamma. It's just that I just plain dislike some people because of their tone, style of posting and other snooty aesthetic things, and strongly enough that I have decided to leave. Very silly of course, but life is full of silliness. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > "--Rahula, develop a mind similar to earth, when you develop a mind similar to earth arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold of your mind and stay. Rahula on the earth is dumped, the pure and the impure, excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, the earth does not loathe those, in the same manner develop a mind similar to earth. When you develop a mind similar to earth, arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold of the mind and stay--" > > > From Num, #4072 > > "As Erik brought up about mana. I would like to discuss and get some inputs about mana cetasika. How many different ways can mana cetasika manifest? Pride, esteem, feeling of superiority, inferiority, equality, etc. > > I have read about Ven. Sariputta who said that he considered himself as only a dustrag or a floormat. His humbleness is really impressed me. I admire his wisdom, his kindness, his patience and his humbleness. I asked my self do I like to feel as a dustrag, definitely not. At time I thought about how being ariyan feel like. Like a dustrag!?? V.Sariputta is the foremost Bhuddha disciple in wisdom 2nd only to the Buddha. When his mom invited group of monk for offering food, she was really mean and sarcastic to the monks. V.Sariputta was calm and patient. When he was wrongly accused by a young monk, and after the Buddha cleared the accusation he even asked for a pardon from the younger monk if he had offended him in any means. A lot more incidents rgd V.Sariputta's humbleness." > > Recommended reading: The Life of Sariputta, > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html > > **** > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125372 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 8:56 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > RE: As I see it, the issue is whether there is any relation of what we refer to here as concepts to actual dhammas, or are all conventional perceptions and activities not only distorted but completely fictional with the status of pure hallucinations. > > =============== > > J: I think the issue you raise here is something of a red herring :-)). > > Whether or not there is a 'relation' between dhammas and conventional concepts/objects is beside the point. Whether or not it is beside the point, it seems to be the point of contention between folks as serious about the Dhamma as Ken H. & Rob K. So maybe it is worth addressing so as to settle the disagreement? In any case, I don't think it's beside the point at all, unless it is already settled that nothing we do in life means anything. Only direct understanding matters, and I don't think the Buddha ever said anything to suggest that pure understanding, removed from all life circumstances, was the only thing that mattered. So it comes down to what is really an essential Dhamma argument, not beside the point at all, whether there is indeed an eightfold path, which includes other factors other than right understanding, or a one-fold path, which includes only right understanding, and in which all the other 7 factors are nothing but subsidiary aspects of right understanding. Buddha never suggested that, but I think that is what it comes down to when one thinks that "understanding dhammas" stands alone without any other necessary supports, such as actual right action or right livelihood. If one thinks that right action - even with the word action in it - comes down to nothing but an arising dhamma that has no actual action in it, and that is true for all the factors, then there really is only right understanding, only mental factors, and then the Buddha's explicit exposition of the Dhamma is reduced to something quite one-dimensional compared to the diverse and balanced teaching that the Buddha enunciated during the course of his 40 years of teaching. The reason it is not beside the point is because the Buddha did *not* say over and over again "all that matters is understanding dhammas." He said that the way we lived, acted, and spoke were all important parts of the path, without which the destruction of the defilements and the ultimate understanding that brings enlightenment, which is a matter of mental factors, would not ever come. > The Buddha pointed out that there are things that are real in the ultimate sense and that are not known as they truly are, and he declared that only by the development of understanding of these things can there be enlightenment and escape from samsara. He also said that without the other aspects of the path, such as right action, such understanding could not properly develop. The path does not emanate from purely intellectual activity. > The development of that understanding does not involve identifying any particular relationship between dhammas and conventional objects and, as far as I'm aware, the Buddha never asserted such a relationship as part of the development of the path. Well he talked about life, action, meditation and dictates of right living continuously, both for monks and lay people. What does all that add up to? > I would say he was at pains to assert the importance of the development of understanding of dhammas. Well he was also at pains to talk about all the conditions necessary to develop this, and that included how one lives in the conventional world. > > =============== > > RE: As I see it, real activities exist in the world, but they are really arising and falling away rupas, not as we ordinarily conceive of them, ... > > =============== > > J: I'm wondering what is the basis for the notion that "real activities exist in the world". Is this from the texts, or is it your personal experience? It is from the Buddha's own mentioning of such things in very conventional contexts. While dhammas are always implicated, that doesn't mean that the actions and responses in the world are not meaningful. > You seem to be positing a 2-tier reality: (a) dhammas and (b) conventional objects/activities. The Buddha said may times that ultimate reality and conventional reality were both true in their own realms, and that they did not contradict each other. "The Awakened One, the best of teachers, spoke of two truths, conventional and higher; no third is ascertained; a conventional statement is true because of convention and a higher statement is true as disclosing the true characteristics of events." - Khathāvatthu Aṭṭha kathǎ And Nina has said as much most recently. Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > > =============== > > RE: If one willfully kills beings, one generates akusala kamma, even if one knows that ultimately there are no beings. The caterpillars are not real as such, but the cittas and rupas that are produced when 'caterpillars are trampled' are real, and they create suffering for the 'caterpillar's cittas' and kamma for he who does the trampling. The blind man was blameless because he was blind, and thus had no choice and no desire to kill with regard to the caterpillars. > > =============== > > J: I'm not sure that 'having no choice' is a relevant consideration. It's purely a matter of whether or not there's the intention to take life. Well that makes sense to me, too, but if one "has no choice" that just clarifies that there is no intention to kill, even if some "crunching rupas" take place by happenstance. If there "were a choice" with no intention to kill, the monk would merely walk around the caterpillars and spare them the suffering of being crunched. In any case, your view on this contradict's Ken H.'s interpretation that the monk was fine because he understood that "there were really no caterpillars to kill" rather than the point that "there was no intention to kill," with which I agree. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125373 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 1:44 pm Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: I agree with pt here. For thinking about a concept to be kusala (including "turning it around, probing it, in order to understand what it represents"), there must probably be some level of understanding > > > > RE: I think I would agree with that... Although it would seem to me that understanding would develop through such 'probing,' etc., as long as it was kusala. > > > > > J: ...And of course the object must be one that can usefully be reflected on. What kind of objects would you see as being 'important objects' in this context? > > > > RE: Well, it's not like I'm an expert at listing kusala objects of contemplation. I would be thinking of any sort of legitimate Dhamma concept or the contemplation of how dhammas behave or their characteristics. That sort of thing, that has the potential to develop pariyatti and develop the path. > > =============== > > J: If we're talking about the contemplation of a conceptual object, then we're talking about samatha bhavana (not vipassana bhavana), right? That is not what I had in mind. I am thinking of the development of pariyatti, which, if I understand it correctly, which I very well may not, involves the conceptual understanding of how dhammas actually behave. In other words, it is the understanding of how dhammas behave, but without yet actually being able to experience them directly. Please let me know where I am off-base. It seems that defining pariyatti is an adventure in swimming through quicksand. Anyway, contemplation of the direct characteristics of dhammas, etc., should lead to the development of understanding via pariyatti, not samatha bhavana. As I understand it, the kind of concept that leads to samatha bhavana are concepts such as the breath known on a conceptual rather than a direct level, and other objects of that sort, such as meditative nimittas, kasinas, etc. When talking about pariyatti I am talking about contemplation of Dhamma, not meditation objects. > There are a limited number of objects the contemplation of which support the development of samatha to a high degree, and these objects are specified in the texts (suttas and Vism). They include, for example: certain kasinas; the 'divine abidings' of metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha; the breath; a number of recollections (death, the Buddha, the Dhamma). > > Contemplation of these objects can only be kusala if there is the knowledge of what is to be contemplated/recollected about the object and why (these kinds of details are found in the Vism). Whereas the idea of 'turning the object around, probing it, in order to understand what it represents' seems to imply a quite different approach (no mention of this kind of thing in Vism, for example). It seems to be more *concentration on* than *contemplation of*. I am talking about contemplation of the concepts of Dhamma, not meditation. You may question this as well, but it's a very different subject. If you read a commentary and gain some understanding of what is being said about the characteristics of dhammas, or discuss them as we do here, and some understanding develops, that is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125374 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 1:52 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert E, ---- <. . .> > RE: What I mean is that what we see in everyday life either has some relation to dhammas - gives us a clue if we understand in the right way, or not - no relation at all, as I think you would say. I think you would say that concepts refer to dhammas but they do not reflect them. I would say that concepts 'reflect' dhammas imperfectly, rather than say nothing about them at all. ----- KH: The Dhamma is knowable only when it has been taught by a Buddha. No amount of concept-examination will ever uncover it. I think that must mean concepts do not reflect dhammas. If concepts did reflect dhammas in some way it would be only a matter of time (Buddhas or no Buddhas) before conventional science discovered dhammas. If, for example, the human body was made of kalapas then nuclear physicists would have discovered kalapas by now. (IMHO) In another DSG thread some people have been saying there is a limited degree of control in absolute reality. If there was limited control we would have slowly gained complete control by now, wouldn't we? So I am saying there is no control to any degree in absolute reality and, for the same reasons, there is no reality (substance, sabhava) in concepts. Not even a reflection of it! Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125375 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 2:01 pm Subject: Re: What some says give no indication of view epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > >=============== > > RE: This makes it rather pointless to discuss Dhamma imho, i gues nothing more can be said I don't know how the RE got in front of this, but it is an RK comment, not mine. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125376 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 4:27 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear jon > Here is a post I wrote a week ago back where the visuddhimaga talks about the stream of continuity. Again no one commented and yet when i mention a few days ago the stream of arisind and passing elements, there are objections. > =============== J: Thanks Rob. The post you've copied here appears to consist of quotes from the Visuddhimagga. You say there was a post a few days ago that brought objections, but I've not been able to find it. > =============== > > > "The two together: since any given states are produced without interrupting > the [cause-fruit] continuity of any given combination of conditions, the whole > expression "dependent origination" (paþicca-samuppáda) represents the middle > way, which rejects the doctrines, "He who acts is he who reaps" and "One acts > while another reaps" (S II 20), and which is the proper way described thus, "Not > insisting on local language and NOT OVERRIDDING NORMAL USAGE" (M III 234)"" > > "And with a STREAM of continuity there is neither identity nor otherness. > For if there were absolute identity in a STREAM of continuity, there would be no > forming of curd from milk. And yet if there were absolute otherness, the curd > would not be derived from the milk. And so too with all causally arisen things. > > > RK: Or this one , please read. > Are there errors in this, surely it would be helpful to me and possibly others to know. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/120682 > =============== J: This post is also a collection of (very useful) passages from the Visuddhimagga, so obviously I would not be disagreeing with that part of the content ;-)). Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125377 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 4:31 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > J: Just a guess, but he could be referring (in part) to the statement "Countless kalaps make up the physical eye". His comment could be that this could be read as meaning that according to the teachings the physical eye breaks down into rupas, in the same way that modern science holds that the eye breaks down into atoms and molecules. > > > > Of course, he may be taking your comments too literally (I wouldn't have made the same assumption as KenH myself). But you may have not caught his drift, in which case it's always possible to seek clarification (or ignore completely). > > > > > =============== > > Dear jon, > Thanks for coming in on this discussion. Please continue. > > Obviously atoms and molecules have no existence at all, they are merely invented ideas of scientists. > But kalapas are real. Of course physical eye is merely a concept with no existence, but we need to refer to body and eye and heart etc to be able to discuss Dhamma. > =============== J: Yes, all true enough. But I thought KenH may be alluding to the idea held by some that *conventional objects (such as the eye) break down into dhammas*, that is to say, that dhammas are constituent parts of conventional objects. As I say, this would presumably be based on a literal reading of your statement "Countless kalaps make up the physical eye". > =============== > RK: Nina writes in her book on physical phenomena about foetus and body ( of course she knows they are merely designations) yet for some reason when I use terms like eye or body there are objections. I would certainly be very happy if ken clarifies more, maybe to reply to this post, and on the other posts I made. > =============== J: I have long felt that when you and KenH discuss you are each talking about something different. It doesn't surprise me that you find the experience exasperating :-)) Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125378 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 4:36 pm Subject: Re: What some says give no indication of view jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > >=============== > > > RE: This makes it rather pointless to discuss Dhamma imho, i gues nothing more can be said > > I don't know how the RE got in front of this, but it is an RK comment, not mine. > ===== J: Apologies for that. A slip of either the finger or the mind (more likely the latter :-)) Jon > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - - - > Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125379 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 5:17 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > > Dear jon > > Here is a post I wrote a week ago back where the visuddhimaga talks about the stream of continuity. Again no one commented and yet when i mention a few days ago the stream of arisind and passing elements, there are objections. > > =============== > > J: Thanks Rob. The post you've copied here appears to consist of quotes from the Visuddhimagga. You say there was a post a few days ago that brought objections, but I've not been able to find it. +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Jon, I meant this one and following ones: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/125275 RK: Of course nina, Buddhaghosa and me all know that in reality there are only streams of evanescent namas and rupas arising and passing away. What we call a dog is merely a designation for the elements right? ------ KH: Right, but why do you also talk about streams? I have always noticed that meditators (people who believe in control over dhammas) like to talk about streams of dhammas. The rest of us (I would have thought} prefer to talk about the presently arisen citta, cetasikas and rupas – or just the present dhamma-arammana. __________________ robert > > > =============== > > "The two together: since any given states are produced without interrupting > > the [cause-fruit] continuity of any given combination of conditions, the whole > > expression "dependent origination" (paþicca-samuppáda) represents the middle > > way, which rejects the doctrines, "He who acts is he who reaps" and "One acts > > while another reaps" (S II 20), and which is the proper way described thus, "Not > > insisting on local language and NOT OVERRIDDING NORMAL USAGE" (M III 234)"" > > > > "And with a STREAM of continuity there is neither identity nor otherness. > > For if there were absolute identity in a STREAM of continuity, there would be no > > forming of curd from milk. And yet if there were absolute otherness, the curd > > would not be derived from the milk. And so too with all causally arisen things.++++++++++++++++++++ Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125380 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 5:26 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email By the way I cited this quotation some time back and had no objections (I thought) at that time. : Abhidhammattha Sangaha: Ch VI, BODHI:guide to #6 "The life-span of a citta is termed, in the Abhidhamma, a mind-moment (cittakkha.na). This is a temporal unit of such brief duration that, according to the commentators, in the time it takes for lightning to flash or the eyes to blink, billions of mind-moments can elapse. Nevertheless, though seemingly infinitesimal, each mind-moment in turn consists of three sub-moments - arising (uppaada), presence (.thiti), and dissolution (bhanga). Within the breadth of a mind-moment, a citta arises, performs its momentary function, and then dissolves, conditioning the next citta in immediate succession. Thus, through the sequence of mind-moments, the flow of consciousness continues uninterrupted LIKE THE WATERS IN A STREAM ."" robert > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear jon > > > Here is a post I wrote a week ago back where the visuddhimaga talks about the stream of continuity. Again no one commented and yet when i mention a few days ago the stream of arisind and passing elements, there are objections. > > > =============== > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125381 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 7:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dustrags 4 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil, > From: philip >I would like to say again that posting this sort of thing and other pleas for kind and gentle speech indicates, in my opinion, a subtle belief in the ability to influence other people's behaviour. If people like me often have wrong speech, or make disparaging comments, that's just the way conditions are playing out, and if you try to discourage it will only succeed in demonstrating a belief in the control of the dhammas of others and end up alienating the wrong speech-er. ... S: Actually it wasn't a plea for anything and I did not have you or your speech in mind at all when I wrote the series. I had been asked more than once to say something with regard to hearing personal criticism and this is what prompted my reflections on equanimity with regard to the worldly conditions, learning from Sariptutta's example of being like a dust-rag and so on. As I've mentioned before, I just share what I find helpful to reflect on and that's all. Some us really benefit from reminders of metta and "developing a mind like the earth", while others like yourself find them "alienating". So be it. It was the same in the Buddha's time as well. Yes, it just comes down to the understanding at this moment, the understanding now of the benefit of metta when it arises and the harm of dosa. If we try to have metta, try to be like a dust-rag that accepts all the filth and gunge that comes its way, or thing we can control others in any way, we go wrong, I agree. However, if there was no point in giving such reminders for us to reflect on about all kinds of kusala now, the Buddha would have kept quiet. ... > >I quote this from the SPD series: > >"We may believe that we want to be without defilements, but when defilements actually arise it seems that we wish to have them. We may have conceit, we may find ourselves important, or we may be jealous. Someone else may say that such defilements should be eradicated, that one should rejoice in someone else's >happiness or that one should have loving-kindness towardes a disagreeable person, but are we able to follow such advice? People who want to be angry, who want to have contempt for others, who want to be arrogant or jealous, cannot follow the adivce to cultivate wholesomeness. This shows that the eradication of >defilements cannot occur immediately, that it can only be accomplished very gradually." (end of passage) ... S: Yes, "accomplished very gradually" through right understanding. As I mentioned in one of the letters, when I first heard K.Sujin encouraging us all to reflect on the dust-rag and the benefit of having a mind that can hear any criticism, any blame , any adversity with equanimity, I didn't appreciate it as much as I do now. I remember others would go up quietly to her to tell her about problems they had with family members and so on and she'd always talk about realities now and about metta, considering others' needs rather than one's own. Just dhammas, no people to get upset about or dislike at all. .. > >I *enjoy* disliking the people I dislike, I *enjoy* writing rude things to them. That's not good news for me, but it's the way it is. You don't have to worry, because I won't be participating here and as long as me and other rude speakers are absent, it should be all right here and you won't have to post this sort of series! ... S: You *enjoy* disliking people because there is no hiri and ottappa at such times, no metta. It's not "all about Phil":-) As I said, I wasn't worried or concerned about you or your posts and had no thought whatsoever about them when I wrote this particular series. Perhaps you'd been waiting for a response after your last little outburst:-) ... >I repeat from the above: "People who want to be angry, who want to have contempt for others, who want to be arrogant or jealous, cannot follow the advice to cultivate wholesomeness." ... S: Right, so little use in talking to them about dhammas, about kusala and akusala at such times. However, others can benefit and the person who is angry may reflect wisely later. .... >Pushing people who are behaving badly in the direction of wholesomeness by posting about Rahula and the 4 elements or things about the benefits of metta etc is not really helpful. Just likely to alienate them. Why must there be such clinging to pleasant behaviour at DSG, I just don't get it, why can't there be more understanding? ... S: Like now - what kind of cittas are writing or reading? This is what the Dhamma comes down to - understanding now. ... > >Anyways, just wanted to post the above as a reminder for the next time there is an outbreak of bad behaviour and anyone feels the need to try to change others' behaviour. Better to have some bad behaviour than a belief in the controllability of dhammas. I'll be gone again as soon as this is posted, so won't be able to respond further. ... S: :-) ... >p.s I have come to realize that my problem here is not that I can't stand criticism or disagreement about Abhidhamma. It's just that I just plain dislike some people because of their tone, style of posting and other snooty aesthetic things, and strongly enough that I have decided to leave. Very silly of course, but life is full of silliness. ... S: Yes, lack of understanding about the value of metta and about dhammas at such times. When we have long stories about people and dislikes as you describe, it indicates lots of "me and them". As we know, there are no people, just dhammas. Appreciating this is a condition for metta now. The purpose of DSG is to exchange reminders about dhammas and that's what I'll continue to do. Thank you for all your helpful quotes from Survey. Much appreciated. Have a good trip to Canada, Phil. All the outbursts are 'gone' - forget them! Metta Sarah >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: >> "--Rahula, develop a mind similar to earth, when you develop a mind similar to earth arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold of your mind and stay. Rahula on the earth is dumped, the pure and the impure, excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, the earth does not loathe those, in the same manner develop a mind similar to earth. When you develop a mind similar to earth, arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold of the mind and stay--" Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125382 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 7:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dustrags 4 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Op 3-jul-2012, om 18:49 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > I quote this from the SPD series: > > "We may believe that we want to be without defilements, but when > defilements actually arise it seems that we wish to have them. ..." > ------ N: Very understandable Phil, when hiri and ottappa do not arise, we do not see the danger of being enslaved to defilements. ------- > Ph: I *enjoy* disliking the people I dislike, I *enjoy* writing > rude things to them. .. Why must there be such clinging to pleasant > behaviour at DSG, I just don't get it, why can't there be more > understanding?... > --------- N: That's just it, more understanding. I like this sutta: PTS III, 167, Tika.n.dakiisutta, At Three-thorn Grove, I discussed at the Pali list. We read this: < "And for what reason should he abide perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive as well as in the repulsive? (He should do so with the thought:) 'May no lust arise in me for lust- inducing objects, and may no hatred arise in me towards hate-inducing objects!' (4) "And for what reason should he abide perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive as well as in the unrepulsive? (He should do so with the thought:) 'May no hatred arise in me towardshate-inducing objects, and may no lust arise in me for lust-inducing objects!'> N: It does not matter what object presents itself, they are all equal in this respect that they are only impermanent mental phenomena, naama, and physical phenomena, ruupa. Each object falls away immediately, no matter it is pleasant or unpleasant, it is paritta, of slight importance. Through vipassanaa we all can very, very gradually learn this. If an object is very beautiful we can learn to see it as only a reality which does not stay. What falls away immediately is not really beautiful. When an object is very dirty, very ugly, we can learn that it is only a reality that does not stay. It is just an element, why should one have aversion towards an element? All these texts we should not consider as theoretical, they point to the development of understanding of any object that appears, no matter it is pleasant or unpleasant, kusala or akusala. We are inclined to think about objects for a long time, how beautiful they are, how ugly they are. We forget that they fall away immediately. ----- The commentary (I shorten now): He pervades pleasant objects with the impure or applies these with impermanence. He pervades unpleasant objects with mettaa or sees them as elements. Thus he abides seeing the unrepulsive in the repulsive. N: When we meet an unpleasant person who insults us we can forgive him and have mettaa instead of aversion, or we can understand that whatever we see or hear are only conditioned elements. ------- The fifth way is the sixfold upekkhaa. N: This is evenmindedness, tatramajjhattataa, a sobhana cetasika. Sixfold: with regard to the objects experienced through the senses and the mind-door. ------- You said: more understanding. Yes, more understanding that the person you dislike is only elements that arise and fall away. Where is he? Each akusala citta also has ignorance. Ignorance of what? Of the reality that appears now. ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125383 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 7:22 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 5 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Even though we have understood how to develop the eightfold Path we are often not patient enough to be mindful, day in day out, of visible object and seeing, sound and hearing an all the other realities that appear. At the moment of mindfulness and right understanding there is only the characteristic which appears and there is no impatience with regard to a result of our development, no worry about the future. When hardness, for example, presents itself there can be awareness of only hardness; when the experience of hardness presents itself there can be awareness of that characteristic. This is the way to become more patient with ourselves and with other people. This is the way to be able to endure any kind of situation. Truthfulness, sacca, is another one of the perfections the Buddha had fulfilled. We read in the Jåtakas that the Bodhisatta always kept his promises even when he was in danger of life. We read in the “Sutasoma Jåtaka” (no 537) that a man-eater (who would be reborn later on in the Buddha’s time as A.ngulimåla) was going to kill the Bodhisatta in order to eat him. The Bodhisatta had to go away for a while first in order to fulfil a promise he had made to a Brahmin. After that he came back on his own accord to the man-eater since he had promised him to return. His truthfulness tamed the man-eater. When the man- eater was reborn in the Buddha’s time as A.ngulimåla he was tamed again by the Buddha and he even attained arahatship. In the “Lakkha.na Sutta” (The Marks of the Superman”, Dialogues of the Buddha III, no 30) we read how accumulated kusala kamma conditioned the bodily features of the Buddha. We read concerning his truthfulness: “Whereas in whatsoever former birth... monks, the Tathågata, then being human, put away lying, felt revulsion at lies, became truth- speaker, bound to truth, trustworthy, consistent, breaking his word to no one, he by the doing and by the accumulating of that kamma, by the mass and the abundance thereof... was reborn in a bright and blessed world. Deceasing thence, and attaining this life as you know it, he acquired these two Marks of the Superman, to wit, down growing in separate hairs, all over his body; and between the eyebrows a hairy mole, white and like soft cotton-down.” ***** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125384 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 7:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kenh3 moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob K, all, thanks for the clarification . As you quoted : "the flow of consciousness continues uninterrupted LIKE THE WATERS IN A STREAM " Interesting in this respect Ven.Narada 'Buddhism in a Nutshell ' excerpt: "According to Buddhism mind is nothing but a complex compound of fleeting mental states. One unit of consciousness consists of three phases -- arising or genesis (uppada) static or development (thiti), and cessation or dissolution (bhanga). Immediately after the cessation stage of a thought moment there occurs the genesis stage of the subsequent thought-moment. Each momentary consciousness of this ever-changing life-process, on passing away, transmits its whole energy, all the indelibly recorded impressions to its successor. Every fresh consciousness consists of the potentialities of its predecessors together with something more. There is therefore, a continuous flow of consciousness like a stream without any interruption. The subsequent thought moment is neither absolutely the same as its predecessor -- since that which goes to make it up is not identical -- nor entirely another -- being the same continuity of kamma energy. Here there is no identical being but there is an identity in process. Every moment there is birth, every moment there is death. The arising of one thought-moment means the passing away of another thought-moment and vice versa. In the course of one life-time there is momentary rebirth without a soul. It must not be understood that a consciousness is chopped up in bits and joined together like a train or a chain. But, on the contrary, "it persistently flows on like a river receiving from the tributary streams of sense constant accretions to its flood, and ever dispensing to the world without the thought-stuff it has gathered by the way."[12] It has birth for its source and death for its mouth. The rapidity of the flow is such that hardly is there any standard whereby it can be measured even approximately. However, it pleases the commentators to say that the time duration of one thought-moment is even less than one-billionth part of the time occupied by a flash of lightning. Here we find a juxtaposition of such fleeting mental states of consciousness opposed to a superposition of such states as some appear to believe. No state once gone ever recurs nor is identical with what goes before. But we worldlings, veiled by the web of illusion, mistake this apparent continuity to be something eternal and go to the extent of introducing an unchanging soul, an atta, the supposed doer and receptacle of all actions to this ever-changing consciousness. "The so-called being is like a flash of lightning that is resolved into a succession of sparks that follow upon one another with such rapidity that the human retina cannot perceive them separately, nor can the uninstructed conceive of such succession of separate sparks."[13] As the wheel of a cart rests on the ground at one point, so does the being live only for one thought-moment. It is always in the present, and is ever slipping into the irrevocable past. What we shall become is determined by this present thought-moment. " as well as Venerable Nyanaponika's ' Abhdidhamma Studies ' (see http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhistudy.pdf espec.Chapter 1 ) who emphases the aspect of time , not sufficiently considered by 'bare and qualified analysis ' , in particular when single static picture like in a cinema are taken for reality instead of the change or flux. with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125385 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2012 8:57 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Yes, that is quite a nice explanation by ven. Narada. I wonder if others agree with.. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Rob K, all, > > thanks for the clarification . > > As you quoted : "the flow of consciousness continues uninterrupted LIKE THE WATERS IN A STREAM " > > > Interesting in this respect Ven.Narada 'Buddhism in a Nutshell ' > excerpt: "According to Buddhism mind is nothing but a complex compound of fleeting mental states. One unit of consciousness consists of three phases -- arising or genesis (uppada) static or development (thiti), and cessation or dissolution (bhanga). Immediately after the cessation stage of a thought moment there occurs the genesis stage of the subsequent thought-moment. Each momentary consciousness of this ever-changing life-process, on passing away, transmits its whole energy, all the indelibly recorded impressions to its successor. Every fresh consciousness consists of the potentialities of its predecessors together with something more. There is therefore, a continuous flow of consciousness like a stream without any interruption. The subsequent thought moment is neither absolutely the same as its predecessor -- since that which goes to make it up is not identical -- nor entirely another -- being the same continuity of kamma energy. Here there is no identical being but there is an identity in process. > Every moment there is birth, every moment there is death. The arising of one thought-moment means the passing away of another thought-moment and vice versa. In the course of one life-time there is momentary rebirth without a soul. > It must not be understood that a consciousness is chopped up in bits and joined together like a train or a chain. But, on the contrary, "it persistently flows on like a river receiving from the tributary streams of sense constant accretions to its flood, and ever dispensing to the world without the thought-stuff it has gathered by the way."[12] It has birth for its source and death for its mouth. The rapidity of the flow is such that hardly is there any standard whereby it can be measured even approximately. However, it pleases the commentators to say that the time duration of one thought-moment is even less than one-billionth part of the time occupied by a flash of lightning. Here we find a juxtaposition of such fleeting mental states of consciousness opposed to a superposition of such states as some appear to believe. No state once gone ever recurs nor is identical with what goes before. But we worldlings, veiled by the web of illusion, mistake this apparent continuity to be something eternal and go to the extent of introducing an unchanging soul, an atta, the supposed doer and receptacle of all actions to this ever-changing consciousness. > "The so-called being is like a flash of lightning that is resolved into a succession of sparks that follow upon one another with such rapidity that the human retina cannot perceive them separately, nor can the uninstructed conceive of such succession of separate sparks."[13] As the wheel of a cart rests on the ground at one point, so does the being live only for one thought-moment. It is always in the present, and is ever slipping into the irrevocable past. What we shall become is determined by this present thought-moment. " > > > as well as Venerable Nyanaponika's ' Abhdidhamma Studies ' (see http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhistudy.pdf espec.Chapter 1 ) > who emphases the aspect of time , not sufficiently considered by 'bare and qualified analysis ' , in particular when single static picture like in a cinema are taken for reality instead of the change or flux. > > with Metta Dieter > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125386 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 1:53 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: Yes, that is exactly the point I was making. He may, speaking as a scientist, say something that he would not say when speaking of his held beliefs. But a person reading his book may, not appreciating the distinction we are making, incorrectly attribute a held belief to him. I still think this is a dicey issue. There is a difference between having two sets of beliefs and having one real and one false belief. I don't think a scientist will announce something as true that he does not believe is actual, even though he may have a personal belief that appears to contradict it. Einstein said that "God doesn't play dice with the Universe," yet all of his work was about provable formulas, not spiritual pronouncements. I would say that those beliefs were not contradictory to him, not that one was a 'held' belief and the other was not. I think we can hold more than one belief at a time. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125387 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 2:37 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello RobertE, all, >RE: I still think this is a dicey issue. There is a difference >between having two sets of beliefs and having one real and one false >belief. >=========================== It is a dicey issue. Rather than having "Real Truth" and falsehood that is merely "conventionally" (whatever that means) true -> Why not have two ways of looking at the same experience? Is it possible to analyze something using more or less technical jargon? Is it possible to look something from various valid perspectives? With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125388 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 8:22 am Subject: Re: kenh3 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > So I hope you can see I wasn't talking about a series or "stream" of dhammas. According to my understanding, there is no stream. One momentary set of five khandhas arises and falls away, and that is all there is to a sentient being, or dog. A completely new set of five khandhas is conditioned to take it's place, and so there is a completely new dog. (Or a completely new "that which we call a dog.") I don't think this is correct. The fact that rupas always arise in kalapas - that is a series [stream] points to the organization of conditionality from one dhamma to the next. Kalapas are not simeoltaneous groups but are a conditional sequence. Cittas as well do not arise at random but are "conditioned," as you say, to arise in a sensible manner. If you look at the series of citta that arise in relation to seeing visible object, they are not random but are indeed a series or stream - a certain number of rupa-moments, mind-moments, etc. And they arise in a sensible order, before the next one is sensibly, not randomly, conditioned as well. I think it is a misunderstanding to think that dhamma theory isolates a single dhamma and then it disappears without a trace. While the single dhamma at any moment does disappear, its trace does not. It's like saying that football [the American kind] is played by one football player. One guy does throw the ball, but the fact that another one then arises to catch it is not a coincidence, but a coordinated action between a and b. Likewise with the rupas in a kalapa, and likewise with the sequences of cittas. We don't experience a single moment of "dog," concept or not, but a whole series of visible objects, sounds, etc., interspersed with concepts/thinking and mental processes, etc., and we add that up to the concept of dog. But the concept of dog is not arisen or supported in a single moment, nor in isolation from visible and other actual dhammas which actually do arise to support it. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125389 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 9:19 am Subject: Re: kenh3 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon, and Ken H, Rob K & Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > KH: So I hope you can see I wasn't talking about a series or "stream" of dhammas. According to my understanding, there is no stream. One momentary set of five khandhas arises and falls away, and that is all there is to a sentient being, or dog. A completely new set of five khandhas is conditioned to take it's place, and so there is a completely new dog. (Or a completely new "that which we call a dog.") > > =============== First, I'd like to take the opportunity to say that in a sense I agree with what Ken H. describes here - in a sense the "dog" does not last for longer than a moment and then is replaced by an almost exact, but of course completely renewed and somewhat transformed "replica." It is somewhat like a film that is stopped and one can look at all the individual frames. Each frame is unique and slightly different than those before and after, and each is a unique and separate image when the "stream" of the film is stopped for closer inspection. On the other hand, when the film is running, and we see "the dog" changing from moment to moment and it adds up to the dog looking or turning or running, that is not just an illusion but also reflects a kind of reality. It is not just a coincidence that each frame in the film matches perfectly with the sequence of the ones before and after, for in fact they are part of a logical sequence. It's not a mistake to say they are related, just a mistake to say they are all the 'same dog.' In other words, way more interesting and complicated than merely saying "it's a new dog each time," or to say the opposite "it is one and the same eternal dog but changing a bit." It is in fact not correct to say it is simply an isolated moment in which a whole new dog arises, or to say that it is the "same dog." I think what one has to say is that the factors that made up or were identified as "dog" are passed on in a logical way but that as they are passed on they also change to create a continued appearance of "dog" that is made up of many micro-moments of experience. None of them really add up to dog per se, but neither it is a coincidence that we experience that dog throughout those moments. To think the dog is a being that has eternal continuity and that has an internal identity is a mistake, but to think that nothing of what we see exists when we see "dog" is also a mistake. > J: Rob E, I'm just wondering if what you're referring to is the fact that each citta is related to one that preceded it and one that follows it by contiguity condition (among others). Yes that is at the very least an important part of what I am referencing. > So are you perhaps saying that cittas that are so related can be regarded as being in a 'stream'. Well of course they are creating the conditions for each next one, like dominoes, and thus have a very lawful and identifiable relationship from moment to moment. To say that this is not the case would be to ignore the obvious. > The texts do refer to stream (Pali: 'sota') in a number of contexts including 'bhavanga-sota' to refer to the bhavanga cittas that arise continuously throughout life except when interrupted by sense-door impressions. And this is indeed another example of how important the 'unbroken stream' of cittas really is. If it were not the case that the *stream* needs to be unbroken in order to maintain the continuity of experience from citta to citta, there would be no need nor would there exist any bhavanga cittas. They are only there to maintain the continuity of the *stream.* Certainly they don't otherwise pertain to any single cittas, which indeed do not stand alone, but are part of that continuity. Thanks for providing that opportunity to clarify that, at least a bit. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125390 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 1:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: kenh3 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: RE: > Obviously in arising there is a point where it changes to whatever the > function is that is performed, and there is a point where that changes to > falling away, so there is actually change throughout the entire process. > -------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Exactly! > ================================ Well you and I agree on this - that's a good start! :-) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125391 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 2:51 pm Subject: Re: Life is a real test. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 2-jul-2012, om 19:48 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > Thank you for sharing your personal story about this. It is a very > > good reminder that we can see that there are only dhammas when > > these kinds of things happen. It really can take us out of the > > story, into the reality of this moment, and I think that is > > inherently less painful. > ------- > N: You formultaed in these sentences the essence of the Dhamma. Our > normal daily life consists of stories, this is so natural. Then we > learn to see through these stories: there are only dhammas. Indeed it > helps to cope with difficult events, not taking them so personal. Hearing you say that back to me is very helpful to me too. It just makes a lot of sense. > This is taught in the suttas all the time. That is why I find suttas > very important and most helpful. They deal with common events and > problems in daily life and help me to see what is really true. Yes, this also supports how I feel when I read some of the suttas - the way you put it is very good. > You formulated this so well in another post: paramatha dhammas in a totally separate world with no relation at all > to everyday actions and occurrences, it is impossible to make good > sense of the suttas, in which the Buddha often talks about the > conventional actions and results that we experience every day. > Sometimes he also talks about the paramatha level and sometimes he > talks somewhere inbetween. But all that he says relates to dhammas > and to the path. It is a continuum of understanding, rather than a > divided understanding.> Thank you, Nina. It is very good to talk to you about this. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125392 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 3:07 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > What doesn't exist is something that is constant (nicca), ultimately happy (sukha), and thing-in-itself (Atta) with the former features. With this, we do not have problem with conventional actions. Agreed. The only part that I am not sure about is no "atta with the former features." Could you please explain what you mean by that? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125393 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 3:22 pm Subject: Re: Dustrags 4 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Phil - you're back - what a surprise! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > I would like to say again that posting this sort of thing and other pleas for kind and gentle speech indicates, in my opinion, a subtle belief in the ability to influence other people's behaviour. This is nothing but a misuse of Abhidhamma as an excuse for your own unkind comments. It shows a serious misunderstanding of the difference between 'no-control' and just being plain old irresponsible. Slapping someone and then saying 'not my fault it's due to conditions' is an abuse of the Dhamma, plain and simple. The fact is, you can take in what others say and you can respond to it. No 'you,' but if you are not stubborn, change can still take place - and should. > I *enjoy* disliking the people I dislike, I *enjoy* writing rude things to them. Well it's true that you are rude and seem to only care about what makes you feel good. What you enjoy is not important. You should control yourself. That's right, buck up and stop speaking this way. ... > Anyways, just wanted to post the above as a reminder for the next time there is an outbreak of bad behaviour and anyone feels the need to try to change others' behaviour. Better to have some bad behaviour than a belief in the controllability of dhammas. It's not an either/or choice. Actually people can criticize you and try to get you to change your behavior without having a belief in direct control. Everything conditions change, including what is said here. > I'll be gone again as soon as this is posted, so won't be able to respond further. You won't be gone, Phil. You promised this a week or two ago, but in fact you can't resist coming back just to harass people. > p.s I have come to realize that my problem here is not that I can't stand criticism or disagreement about Abhidhamma. It's just that I just plain dislike some people because of their tone, style of posting and other snooty aesthetic things, and strongly enough that I have decided to leave. Yet, you will not leave. I guess that's another thing you can't control. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125394 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 3:30 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: The Dhamma is knowable only when it has been taught by a Buddha. No amount of concept-examination will ever uncover it. I think that must mean concepts do not reflect dhammas. > > If concepts did reflect dhammas in some way it would be only a matter of time (Buddhas or no Buddhas) before conventional science discovered dhammas. If, for example, the human body was made of kalapas then nuclear physicists would have discovered kalapas by now. (IMHO) I agree that physicists won't find a physical reality of dhammas, but this does not mean that the primal level of concepts - seeing people, objects, actions - does not reflect dhammas. That level is prior to intellectual concepts that are contained in science or other analysis. They are experiential objects [concepts] that reflect a basic, everyday level of understanding that is only clarified by panna, not by intellectual knowledge. > In another DSG thread some people have been saying there is a limited degree of control in absolute reality. If there was limited control we would have slowly gained complete control by now, wouldn't we? Limited is limited. I don't believe in control, but I also don't believe in complete separation of volition and result either. Volition is an active factor, even though it is not subject to control. We can jump off the ground, but we can't fly. No amount of jumping [limited flight] will lead to eventual flying. > So I am saying there is no control to any degree in absolute reality and, for the same reasons, there is no reality (substance, sabhava) in concepts. Not even a reflection of it! Well that is the issue. I don't think that's correct. There's too much coincidence between the properties of rupas, for instance, and the conventional objects that we experience in everyday life. They seem to be related, and are spoken of in that way in all the scriptures, including the commentaries. None of them that I've seen, limited though that might be, try to divorce the understanding of dhammas from everyday experiences, but rather elucidate them. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125395 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 3:34 pm Subject: Re: What some says give no indication of view epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > >=============== > > > > RE: This makes it rather pointless to discuss Dhamma imho, i gues nothing more can be said > > > > I don't know how the RE got in front of this, but it is an RK comment, not mine. > > ===== > > J: Apologies for that. A slip of either the finger or the mind (more likely the latter :-)) The mind is a slippery instrument! :-) I've tried to hold mine still, but it doesn't seem to take! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125396 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 5:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma and result. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard (& Nina). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > But with regard to the idea that the results of kamma cannot be > > > changed, this is not so. Further conditions, including further > > > kamma, CAN modify > > > the not-yet-arising results of kamma. The Buddha certainly taught > > > this. .... > > > -------- > N: It would interest me to have a sutta text, if you can find it? > ---------------------------------------------------------------- S: What about when lokutta cittas (enlightenment) occurs? Even at the stage of sotapanna, past kamma can no longer bring results by way of woeful rebirth, for example. After the parinibbana of an arahat, past kamma of any kind can no longer bring results. Also, we know the results of kamma are so very intricate. For example, a human birth is a result of past kusala kamma, but past akusala kamma may lead to deformities and so on from birth. Are these the sorts of things you were meaning? Htoo wrote a series before on different types of kamma, such as #45247 and following: >1. janaka kamma or regenerative kamma 2. upatthambhaka kamma or supportive kamma 3. upapiilaka kamma or reductive kamma 4. upaghataka kamma or destructive kamma< Metta Sarah ======= Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125397 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 5:30 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > >R: The idea of these processes occuring in the " brain" seems so caught up in cultural ideas and self to me. > > ... > > S: I don't remember anyone saying this. I think Ken H has repeatedly stressed it is exactly what he isn't saying. I think he's said many times that if there's an idea of dhammas situated in conventional ideas of things - whether they be brains, pumps, blood or anything else, it's missing the point, but I'll leave you both to pursue that one! > > > > I think there is a communication issue between the two of you. ... S: [Pls note that this does not mean I think you are saying the same thing!!] .... >R: Please again explain why the visuddhimagga said it was in the blood in the conventiona heart, was buddhaghose missing the point? Or am I the only one in all of buddhaland that doesn't get it? ... S: No of course Buddhaghosa wasn't "missing the point". No one has suggested this for a moment. Buddhaghosa and the great disciples whose commentaries he compiled had no doubt about the realities they were discussing here or elsewhere. However, for us it's different. Do our studies help us to understand the realities appearing now or is there the idea of 'some thing' or 'some place'? For example, in one of your recent posts you wrote: ">R: That special kammic matter will arise wherever there is the suitable conditions, including blood (or even a blood substitute). Although now, for us, it arises inside the body inside the heart, it can certainly arise in a pump, or anywher suitable." Now you will say that your reference to blood, blood substitute , heart and pump are to various rupas. So you seem to be saying we have rupa conditioned by kamma arising inside rupas conditioned by kamma or in the case of the pump, rupa conditioned by kamma arising inside rupas conditioned by temperature. Is that correct? There are simply conditioned namas and rupas arising and falling away. Of course, rupas arise at a particular location, but as soon as we have the idea of "arm", "eye", "heart", "blood', "pump" and so on as having any existence at all, we are forgetting that the teachings are for the understanding of anatta, not atta. ... > Why don't you ask kenh and clarify. He says it is. I wonder why he said that " looking back the commentries might say we got that one ( about the heart base ) wrong" or words to that effect? .. S: I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125398 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 5:49 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert K & Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > dear Kenh > from Sarah > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21096 > > In the first chapter in the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy - the > Abhidhamma text, PTS)and its commentary (the Debates Commentary) there is > a lot of discussion about commonly used terms. The following quote from > the Commentary (On the Person, p 41) > """Thus it is said: > The Enlightened One, best of speakers, spoke two kinds of truth, namely, > the popular and that of highest meaning, a third is not got at (i.e > known). > Therein, discourse meeting with agreement is true and is by way of world > convention. Highest meaning discourse expression is also true and, as > such, characteristic of things (as they are). > ""enquote > > When the Commentary says "true by way of conventional" does that not show the THERAS believed that what they said about heart and ear ect was true. ... S: I think we can all agree that it means that a "butter-jar" is correct usage by way of worldly convention. Today, what we refer to as a "computer" is true, correct by way of worldly convention. "Person" is correct, true by way of sammuti sacca or vohara sacca, worldly convention. It means such worldly convention shouldn't be confused or equated with paramattha sacca. .... >" But POPULAR discourse they teach > consistently and in conformity with TRUTH according to the method > selected. And highest-meaning discourse, too. `they teach consistently > and in conformity with truth according to the method selected.' > "" endquote ... S: So "butter-jar" and "people" are used in conformity with sammuti sacca, conventional truth, regardless of whether we've heard the Teachings or not. So we cannot say a "butter-jar" contains or consists of rupas or that "people" consist of or contain khandhas - because they are just conventional truths. When we read about or refer to "butter-jar" or "people" it just depends on the understanding whether there is an understanding of realities at such a time. Clearly, when the Buddha used such conventional terms and popular discourse, there was no question but that he fully understood realities at such a time and was pointing to these by way of such language. Agreed? Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125399 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 5:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma and result. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah (Howard, Htoo), Op 5-jul-2012, om 9:02 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Howard:But with regard to the idea that the results of kamma cannot be > > > > changed, this is not so. Further conditions, including further > > > > kamma, CAN modify > > > > the not-yet-arising results of kamma. The Buddha certainly > taught > > > > this. .... --------- Htoo wrote a series before on different types of kamma, such as #45247 and following: >1. janaka kamma or regenerative kamma 2. upatthambhaka kamma or supportive kamma 3. upapiilaka kamma or reductive kamma 4. upaghataka kamma or destructive kamma< ---------- N: I am glad that you referred to Htoo's series. THat clarifies, Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125400 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 6:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Forgiving, was Delisting. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >S: "Each moment in daily life there can be the practice of > > Dhamma..." > > > > There are tests all day, tests of whether there is kindness, help > > and understanding or whether lobha, dosa and moha win out again.... > ------ > N: Yes always things happening that are beyond control. What a test! > As to forgiving, I found this passage of pilgrimage so helpful about > the perfections Bodhisattas are accumulating: <"They constantly > arouse energy, having beings' welfare and happiness at heart. When > they have acquired heroic fortitude through supreme energy, they > become patient with beings' many kinds of faults...."> ... S: That's very good. I think understanding leads to such fortitude and patience, patience with "beings' many kinds of faults". We see how all the paramis (perfections) work together. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125401 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 6:38 pm Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 3. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Thanks for sharing these transcripts --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Kh Santi: How can we exert effort for satipatthaana? > > Kh S: When there are no conditions for satipatthaana it does not > arise. More understanding is the condition for it. If it does not > arise there is not yet enough understanding. > > Kh Santi: If for someone satipatthana often arises he has a lot of > effort or energy, and if it does not often arise, there is not much > effort for that person. > > Kh S: Does satipatthana arise because it is accumulated as > sankhaarakkhandha( the khandha of formations, including sati, > pa~n~naa and all wholesome qualities) or does it arise because of a > self? At this moment of listening there are sati and pa~n~naa, and > are these sankhaarakkhandha? .... S: Even if someone has studied a lot of Abhidhamma and Pali, if there's still the idea of self making an effort or 'doing' something, it's not the understanding that the Buddha taught. I heard K. Sujin talking about how sacca ~naana (knowledge of the truth) is the understanding which is confident about the reality right now as the object of understanding only. Nothing else can be the object of understanding.....and only that reality which appears. Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (4) #125402 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 6:45 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 6 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, He who discovered the truth all by himself and taught the truth to others had accumulated perfect truthfulness and sincerety. Through satipaìtthåna one can become more sincere. When we are mindful of realities we will come to know our more subtle defilements which were hidden to us before. We may have thought that we were sincere so long as we did not tell lies. But are we always sincere in our speech and behaviour? The “Visuddhimagga” (I, 60 etc.) mentions untruthfulness in speech or deportment of monks by which there is transgression of the purity of right livelihood. For example, a monk lays claim to a higher than human state that is non-existent in order to obtain requisites [1]. This is an offence of “Defeat”; he can no longer be in communion with the Sangha. We read about hypocrisy in the case of a monk who wants to have requisites but rejects them because he wants to make a good impression on people so that they will give him more. We read about the monk who composes his deportment so that people will admire him more (Visuddhimagga Ch 1, 70): “... he walks studiedly, stands studiedly, sits studiedly, lies down studiedly; he walks as though concentrated; and he is one who meditates in public...” The monk is not supposed to ask for requisites and he is not allowed even to give a hint or make a suggestion about what he needs. The “Visuddhimagga” gives many examples of wrong speech of monks who are seeking requisites. A few of these examples are the following (Visuddhimagga Ch I, 75): “Ingratiating chatter is endearing chatter repeated again and again without regard to whether it is in conformity with truth and Dhamma. Flattery is speaking humbly, always maintaining an attitude of inferiority. Bean-soupery is resemblance to bean soup; for just as when beans are being cooked only a few do not get cooked, the rest get cooked, so too the person in whose speech only a little is true, the rest being false, is called a ‘bean soup’; his state is bean- soupery.” These passages are useful reminders also for lay-people. Are there moments we wish to pretend to be wiser and more virtuous than we really are? Is there some untruthfulness in our speech, be it only a little? ------ 1) The requisites of robes, food, dwelling-place and medicines. ******* Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125403 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Alex & all, The following is a very good quote too: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Kh Sujin: The development of pa~n~naa is a long process, ciira kala > bhaavanaa. > > From the beginning there should be right understanding that this > moment is dhamma. This understanding must be firm and then it can > condition awareness of the characteristics of naama and ruupa. > Realities arise and fall away very rapidly but one should not worry > about being too late to be aware of them. When sati of the level of > satipa.t.thaana arises a characteristic of a reality appears > naturally, just like now. There may be understanding stemming from > listening, but it takes a long time until sati begins to be aware. > When one begins to listen sati may not arise, but one has to continue > to listen and then understanding will grow. Understanding can be > accumulated from life to life, and we do not know how many lives it > takes before there can be direct awareness and understanding of > realities. .... S: Alex will object, of course. We don't have to think about when or how long, but the test is at this moment as to how much uderstanding there is now of what appears. If there is an idea of catching or focussing on a reality or there is no idea what reality is appearing, we can be sure there needs to be a lot more listening, considering and careful reflection on dhammas as anatta. ... > When sati and pa~n~naa arise there is no lobha that desires to > understand, there is detachment. Even when pa~n~naa does not yet > clearly know characteristics, one knows the right way. There is only > one way: when sati is aware of realities then pa~n~naa can grow. Even > when pa~n~naa is weak, one should be aware again and again in > accordance with conditions. > > Everybody likes kusala and hopes for more sati of the level of > satipa.t.thaana, but the idea of self should be got rid of and this > takes patience and courage. Are we ready to develop satipa.t.thaana > in order to get rid of the idea of self? ... S: Patience and courage again. If there is trying to have sati or hoping, we're led astray again. Satipatthana can never arise at such times. ... > > Awareness of characteristics of reality should be very natural and if > it is not natural, it does not work. The development of pa~n~naa is a > difficult task but when one listens and has more understanding sati > can begin to be aware. It is all a matter of detachment, not a matter > of clinging. Listening to the Dhamma is light, pleasant, it is not > heavy. When one has desire and does not get what one wants, life > becomes heavy. When there is very little sati we cannot cause it to > arise often, such is life. ... S: Again, K.Sujin stresses that kusala citta is 'light'. If the practice, the development of awareness is heavy, a burden, stressful.....it's not kusala sati It's not the Path. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125404 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 5, 2012 9:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma and result. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/5/2012 3:02:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (& Nina). --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > > > > But with regard to the idea that the results of kamma cannot be > > > changed, this is not so. Further conditions, including further > > > kamma, CAN modify > > > the not-yet-arising results of kamma. The Buddha certainly taught > > > this. .... > > > -------- > N: It would interest me to have a sutta text, if you can find it? > ---------------------------------------------------------- S: What about when lokutta cittas (enlightenment) occurs? Even at the stage of sotapanna, past kamma can no longer bring results by way of woeful rebirth, for example. After the parinibbana of an arahat, past kamma of any kind can no longer bring results. Also, we know the results of kamma are so very intricate. For example, a human birth is a result of past kusala kamma, but past akusala kamma may lead to deformities and so on from birth. Are these the sorts of things you were meaning? ---------------------------------------------------------- HCW: :-) Yes. (Particularly of the mundane sort in the above example.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Htoo wrote a series before on different types of kamma, such as #45247 and following: >1. janaka kamma or regenerative kamma 2. upatthambhaka kamma or supportive kamma 3. upapiilaka kamma or reductive kamma 4. upaghataka kamma or destructive kamma< Metta Sarah ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125405 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 12:56 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello RobertE, all, >A:What doesn't exist is something that is constant (nicca), >ultimately happy (sukha), and thing-in-itself (Atta) with the former >features. With this, we do not have problem with conventional >actions. >======================================================== >RE:Agreed. The only part that I am not sure about is no "atta with >the former features." Could you please explain what you mean by >that? > ================================= There isn't anything that is nicca and ultimately sukha. I agree with anatta as long as we don't take it to mean that no things exist at all. Conditioned dhammas do exist. Their arrangements into what we call "wholes" do exist. With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125406 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 1:29 am Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, all, >Kh Sujin: The development of pa~n~naa is a long process, ciira kala >bhaavanaa. >============== And in the suttas the opposite is said. SN38 -"if a bhikkhu is practising in accordance with the Dhamma, would it take him long to become an arahant?" -"Not long, friend. - SN38.16 NACIRA.M not cira kala! The suttas are filled with with teachings of quick progress. In MN85 thge Buddha said that He could make good student an Arahant within one day. Satipatthana sutta promises arhatship within 7 days if one fully does it. Bahiya became an Arahant in a minute or so... etc etc. >S: Alex will object, of course. Right, check the suttas. >S:We don't have to think about when or how long, but the test is at >this moment as to how much uderstanding there is now of what >========================== I think we do. Maybe the lack of quick progress is due to lack of right effort or understanding. While I understand that we have to be realistic, I do wonder about the correctness of "Buddhist" path that takes long time. I understand that "Arhatship this day" is highly unlikely, I also don't approve of thousands of lifetimes more of accumulations. This seems to me to be an excuse for not doing something right in the context of all that suttas have said. With metta, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125407 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 1:40 am Subject: Cetasika in daily life -project -panna 1. moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi All, the term often used, I am thinking it may be useful to contemplate about details. Below a brief overview with Metta Dieter PTS Pañña Pañña ( -- ˚) (adj.) [the adj. form of paññā] of wisdom, en- dowed with knowledge or insight, possessed of the highest cognition, in foll. cpds.: anissaraṇa˚ D i.245; S ii.194; iv.332; anoma˚ Sn 343; appa˚ S i.198; J ii.166; iii.223, 263; avakujja˚ A i.130; gambhÄ«ra˚ S i.190; javana˚ S i.63; Nd2 235; tikkha˚; dup˚ D iii.252, 282; S i.78, 191; ii.159 sq.; M iii.25; A ii.187 sq.; Dh 111, 140; Pug 13; DhA ii.255; nibbedhika˚ S i.63; A ii.178; Nd2 235; puá¹­hu˚ ibid.; bhāvita˚ S iv.111; A v.42 sq.; bhÅ«ri˚ S iii.143; iv.205; manda˚ VbhA 239; mahā˚ S i.63, 121; ii.155; A i.23, 25; ii.178 sq.; Nd2 235; SnA 347; sap˚ S i.13, 22, 212; iv.210; A iv.245; Pv i 88; 115; PvA 60 (=paṇឍita), 131 (+buddhimant); suvimutta˚ A v.29 sq.; hāsa˚ S i.63, 191; v.376; Nd2 235. By itself (i. e. not in cpd.) only at Dh 208 (=lokiyalokuttara -- paññāya sampanna DhA iii.172) and 375 (=paṇឍita DhA iv.111). 　 Buddhist Dict. 'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a very wide field. The specific Buddhist knowledge or wisdom, however, as part of the Noble Eightfold Path (magga, q.v.) to deliverance, is insight (vipassanā, q.v.), i.e. that intuitive knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and the realization of Nibbāna (s. ariyapuggala), and which consists in the penetration of the impermanency (anicca, q.v.), misery (dukkha, s. sacca) and impersonality (anattā) of all forms of existence. Further details, s. under tilakkhana. With regard to the condition of its arising one distinguishes 3 kinds of knowledge knowledge based on thinking (cintā-mayā-paññā), knowledge based on learning (suta-mayā-paññā), knowledge based on mental development (bhāvanā-mayā-paññā) (D. 33). " 'Based on thinking' is that knowledge which one has accquired through one's own thinking, without having learnt it from others. 'Based on learning' is that knowledge which one has heard from others and thus acquired through learning. 'Based on mental development' is that knowledge which one has acquired through mental development in this or that way, and which has reached the stage of full concentration" (appanā, q.v.) (Vis.M. XIV). Wisdom is one of the 5 mental faculties (s. bala), one of the 3 kinds of training (sikkhā, q.v.), and one of the perfections (s. pāramÄ«) For further details, s. vipassanā, and the detailed exposition in Vis.M. XIV, 1-32. 　 　 Abhidhammattha-Sangaha 50. Paññindriya - Pa = rightly; ñā, to know, paññā, literally, means right knowing. Its chief characteristic is understanding as it really is, or irresistible understanding, i.e., penetrative knowledge (Yathāsabhāva-pativedho vā akkhalita-pativedho). As paññā dominates in understanding the real nature and as it overcomes ignorance, it is called a controlling faculty (indriya). In Abhidhamma ñāna, paññā, and amoha are used as interchangeable terms. In types of consciousness connected with knowledge (ñāna-sampayutta) the reference is to this paññā. By amoha, one of the three moral roots, is also meant this paññā. As one of the four means of accomplishing one's ends (iddhi-pāda) it assumes the name of vÄ«mamsā (lit., examination). When purified by samādhi, paññā assumes the honorable role of abhiññā (higher knowledge). Highly developed paññā is elevated to the state of a bojjhanga-dhamma-vicaya (Investigation of the Truth) and magganga-sammā ditthi, Right View. The culmination of paññā is the Omniscience of a Buddha. Paññā, in the strictest sense of the term, is seeing things as they truly are, i.e., in the light of anicca (impermanence), dukkha (sorrow), and anattā (soullessness). Reason, intellect, insight, knowledge, wisdom, intelligence - all convey some aspects of paññā, but none of them exactly corresponds to the Pāli term. Both knowledge and wisdom are employed here according to the context. Mrs. Rhys David's comment on this important term is interesting. She writes:- "To fit the term paññā with its approximate European equivalent is one of the cruxes of Buddhist philosophy. I have tried in turn reason, intellect, insight, science, understanding and knowledge. All of these have been, and are, used in the literature of philosophy with varying shades of connotation, according as the sense to be conveyed is popular and vague, psychological and precise or transcendental and - passez-moi le mot - having precise vagueness. And each of them might, with one implication or another, represent paññā. The main difficulty in choice lay in determining whether, to the Buddhist, paññā stood for mental function, or for the aggregate product of certain mental functioning, or for both. When all the allusions to paññā in the Sutta Pitaka have been collated, a final translation becomes possible. Here it must suffice to quote two. M i. 292, he who has paññā (paññavā) is declared in virtue thereof to understand (pajānāti) the nature of the phenomenon of pain or ill (the Four Noble Truths). In D. i. 124 Gotama asks: what is this paññā? and himself sets out its content as consisting in certain intellectual attainments, viz., the Jhānas, insight into the nature of impermanence, the mental image of one's self, the power of iddhi, the cosmic Ear, insight into other minds, into one's own past lives, the cosmic Eye, and the elimination of all vitiating tendencies. Buddhaghosa also (Visuddhi Magga Ch. XIV,) distinguishes paññā from saññā and viññāna. He describes it as adequate to discern not only what these can, viz., sense-objects and the Three Marks (impermanence, pain and non-substantiality) respectively, but also the path. For him, then, it might be called intellect 'at a higher power'. And in Gotama's reply, all those terms are described in terms of intellectual process. Nevertheless, it is clear that the term did not stand for bare mental process of a certain degree of complexity, but that it also implied mental process as cultivated in accordance with a certain system of concepts objectively valid for all Buddhist adepts. Hence I think it best to reject such terms as reason, intellect, and understanding, and to choose wisdom, or science, or knowledge, or philosophy. Only they must be understood in this connection as implying the body of learning as assimilated and applied by the intellect of a given individual". 　 VII, The Seven Sambojjhanga by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D.Litt 　 The panna-cetasika called vimamsiddhipada, pannindriya, panna-bala, sammaditthi-magganga, are all dhammavicaya-sambojjhana. Alternatively, the five panna-visuddhi[123] beginning with ditthi-visuddhi, the three anu-passana-nana, the ten vipassana-nana are called dhammavicaya- sambojjhanga.Just as cotton seeds are milled, carded, etc., so as to produce cotton wool, the process of repeatedly viewing the five khandha with the functions of vipassana-nana is called dhammavicaya. 　 http://www.abhidhamma.com/txt_fundamentalabhidhamma_04.html#A10 9. Paññā cetasika – 1 Paññā is a mental state that realizes an object. It is termed in Pāិi, "paññindriya", faculty of wisdom. Cetasika by Nina (last but not least ;-) ) Wisdom, paññá cetasika, which accompanies fortyseven cittas: twelve types of kÃ¥mÃ¥vacara cittas called ñåùa sampayutta, accompanied by paññá; twentyseven types of mahaggata cittas (jhÃ¥nacittas), which are fifteen types of rúpÃ¥vacara cittas and twelve types of arúpÃ¥vacara cittas; and the eight types of lokuttara cittas. When we develop kusala, chanda may be predominant; it may have predominance over the accompanying dhammas, there are four factors which can be predominant, but only one at a time can be predominant. The four predominant factors (adhipatis) are: chanda, viriya, citta (particular types of citta) and "investigation" or "reflection" (vimamsa, which is panna cetasika)(1 See Dhammasangani 269, and Atthasalini I, Part VII, 212, 213. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125409 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 5:42 pm Subject: Re: What some says give no indication of view jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > > >=============== > > > > > RE: This makes it rather pointless to discuss Dhamma imho, i gues nothing more can be said > > > > > > I don't know how the RE got in front of this, but it is an RK comment, not mine. > > > ===== > > > > J: Apologies for that. A slip of either the finger or the mind (more likely the latter :-)) > > The mind is a slippery instrument! :-) I've tried to hold mine still, but it doesn't seem to take! > ========== J: I've noticed the same thing; it seems to have a mind of its own! Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125410 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 5:48 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125372) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: I think the issue you raise here is something of a red herring :-)). > > > > Whether or not there is a 'relation' between dhammas and conventional concepts/objects is beside the point. > > RE: Whether or not it is beside the point, it seems to be the point of contention between folks as serious about the Dhamma as Ken H. & Rob K. So maybe it is worth addressing so as to settle the disagreement? > =============== J: Yes, well worth addressing. Indeed, that was the purpose of the rest of my message. To summarise, I said that: - The Buddha pointed out the importance of the development of understanding of dhammas as being the development of the path; - that development does not involve identifying a specific relationship between dhammas and concepts (i.e., identifying in exactly what way (if any) dhammas are related to concepts); - the Buddha in his teaching did not assert a relationship between dhammas and concepts of the kind you are suggesting (i.e., that concepts point to dhammas). In brief, the path can be developed to the full without dwelling on this point. > =============== > RE: In any case, I don't think it's beside the point at all, unless it is already settled that nothing we do in life means anything. Only direct understanding matters, and I don't think the Buddha ever said anything to suggest that pure understanding, removed from all life circumstances, was the only thing that mattered. > =============== J: I agree that it is only direct understanding that matters. All understanding arises in the context of life in samsara; there is no such thing as understanding that is 'removed from all life circumstances' (not sure what you have in mind by this expression). > =============== > RE: So it comes down to what is really an essential Dhamma argument, not beside the point at all, whether there is indeed an eightfold path, which includes other factors other than right understanding, or a one-fold path, which includes only right understanding, and in which all the other 7 factors are nothing but subsidiary aspects of right understanding. > =============== J: To my understanding, the path is eightfold in the sense that each moment of path-consciousness is accompanied by eight important mental factors, each performing its own function. > =============== > RE: Buddha never suggested that, but I think that is what it comes down to when one thinks that "understanding dhammas" stands alone without any other necessary supports, such as actual right action or right livelihood. If one thinks that right action - even with the word action in it - comes down to nothing but an arising dhamma that has no actual action in it, and that is true for all the factors, then there really is only right understanding, only mental factors, and then the Buddha's explicit exposition of the Dhamma is reduced to something quite one-dimensional compared to the diverse and balanced teaching that the Buddha enunciated during the course of his 40 years of teaching. > =============== J: Well that is the point of contention (as you say above :-)), namely whether the factors of the NEP are co-arising mental factors that accompany each moment of path consciousness, or whether they are a collection of things (including mental factors and things to do) having no apparent common denominator. (It may well be that the former seems 'one-dimensional' and the latter a 'diverse and balanced teaching' to you, but that is a purely subjective assessment :-)). The only way to resolve this issue is to look at the teachings as a whole, and to do so (I'd suggest) in the context of the commentarial texts. > =============== > RE: The reason it is not beside the point is because the Buddha did *not* say over and over again "all that matters is understanding dhammas." He said that the way we lived, acted, and spoke were all important parts of the path, without which the destruction of the defilements and the ultimate understanding that brings enlightenment, which is a matter of mental factors, would not ever come. > =============== J: Yes, agreed that the ultimate understanding that brings enlightenment is a matter of mental factors. But then so is the 'right' way of living, acting and speaking that you speak of. No action can be 'right' unless it is action that's accompanied by kusala consciousness; so it's down to mental factors again. 'Right action' is not a matter of the 'right' outward conduct/action. > =============== > RE: The Buddha pointed out that there are things that are real in the ultimate sense and that are not known as they truly are, and he declared that only by the development of understanding of these things can there be enlightenment and escape from samsara. > > He also said that without the other aspects of the path, such as right action, such understanding could not properly develop. The path does not emanate from purely intellectual activity. > =============== J: This is the point of contention I mention above :-)) > =============== > > J: The development of that understanding does not involve identifying any particular relationship between dhammas and conventional objects and, as far as I'm aware, the Buddha never asserted such a relationship as part of the development of the path. > > RE: Well he talked about life, action, meditation and dictates of right living continuously, both for monks and lay people. What does all that add up to? > =============== J: I would answer that (rhetorical) question of yours by one of my own: What did the Buddha (or what do the texts) *say* it all adds up to? :-)) > =============== > > J: I would say he was at pains to assert the importance of the development of understanding of dhammas. > > RE: Well he was also at pains to talk about all the conditions necessary to develop this, and that included how one lives in the conventional world. > =============== J: This is the same point of contention. > =============== > > J: I'm wondering what is the basis for the notion that "real activities exist in the world". Is this from the texts, or is it your personal experience? > > RE: It is from the Buddha's own mentioning of such things in very conventional contexts. While dhammas are always implicated, that doesn't mean that the actions and responses in the world are not meaningful. > =============== J: To my understanding, the 'meaningfulness' of actions and responses is a factor of the mental factors by which they are accompanied. > =============== > > J: You seem to be positing a 2-tier reality: (a) dhammas and (b) conventional objects/activities. > > RE: The Buddha said may times that ultimate reality and conventional reality were both true in their own realms, and that they did not contradict each other. > > "The Awakened One, the best of teachers, spoke of two truths, conventional and higher; no third is ascertained; a conventional statement is true because of convention and a higher statement is true as disclosing the true characteristics of events." > - Khathāvatthu Aṭṭha kathǎ > =============== J: But this passage does not state (or imply) the existence of a so-called 'conventional reality'. It says only that "a conventional statement is true because of convention". > =============== > >RE: And Nina has said as much most recently. > > Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > =============== J: Happy to take that statement of RobK's as a starting point. What do you see as its significance? Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125411 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 6:59 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H (& Rob E), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > So I hope you can see I wasn't talking about a series or "stream" of dhammas. According to my understanding, there is no stream. One momentary set of five khandhas arises and falls away, and that is all there is to a sentient being, or dog. A completely new set of five khandhas is conditioned to take it's place, and so there is a completely new dog. (Or a completely new "that which we call a dog.") ... S: I don't know that we can even talk about a "set of five khandhas" arising and falling away, followed by "a new set". Each reality, each khandha arises and falls away, different from each other reality. Whilst its true that each citta, each vinnana khandha must be accompanied by vedana, sanna and at least 5 more cetasikas, each sankhara khandha and that these namas arise and fall away at the same time, they don't arise and fall away at the same time as any rupas. For example, at the moment of seeing, seeing consciousness (vinnana khandha), the seeing arose together with vedana (vedana khandha), sanna (sanna khandha) and 5 more cetasikas (each sankhara khandha). However the visible object which appears had already arisen along with the other rupas in its kalapa as condition for seeing to arise. Furthermore, that visible object lasts for up to 17 cittas. All the other rupas conditioned by kamma, such as masculinity or femininity and so on are also arising and falling away all the time according to their own conditions and timing, rather than as a 'set' with the cittas, as I see it. Anyway, always back to this moment as you'd say - and the more understanding there is now of various dhammas when they appear, the less misled we'll be into thinking that a dog or any *thing* exists now or at any other time. Hope you're enjoying your holiday. Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125412 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 7:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Life is a real test. was:Delisting announcement sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina (& Lodewijk & Lukas), Thank you for mentioning the following: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Sarah gave a lovely reminder to Lodewijk after a severe test I want > to share. > Kh Sujin has plans to come to Europe and Lodewijk wanted to do his > utmost to have her and several friends here with us in the Hague. I > cautioned him since his health is fragile but he was very determined. > He had a beautiful plan with lots of Dhamma talk in our home and > luncheons. I became already excited seeing Kh Sujin and all friends, > but I also realized that this is lobha! Then he got sick and felt > that he had to cancel it, rather a shock. > Sarah wrote: > < She'll be most understanding. She'd also remind us to just > understand the dhammas now - no regrets! Anything can happen anytime, > but it's all still just seeing, hearing, thinking and so on...> > Sarah, we discussed this. Good to be reminded that we never know > conditions that make certain things happen. In the ultimate sense > there are just dhammas, seeing, hearing, thinking about lovely > dreams. Regrets are useless, best to have more understanding of any > reality now. > ------- S: Even when we make our plans, we know anything can happen. Dhammas are never in our control. It doesn't me we don't make plans, but there can be awareness anytime of thinking, attachment, seeing, visible object.....just ordinary dhammas. Lodewijk was being so kind, thinking of everyone's welfare. Sometimes we just can't manage everything we'd like to and it's time for equanimity. We can't stop having regrets but when there's awareness, it's apparent that these too are just moments of thinking with aversion. The Dhamma is so very practical - it always comes back to this moment. Now Lukas is making arrangements for Ajahn in Poland - we just do our best, thinking of others' welfare, but we never know how things will work out. Present understanding is so very precious. Metta Sarah ======= Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125413 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 8:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Dieter, > D: We need to go into detail. I was planning to assemble quotes on mindfulness, but when going through the 'Sati' section in the Useful Posts file, I noticed that most of the quotes are already there, so I'll just point to a couple that seem very useful to me: A post by Nina on technical intricacies of the definitions of mindfulness (remembering, non-forgetful, guarding, etc), quotes mostly from Vis and its commentary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42882 Further, while often the modern commentators mention the aspects of remembering, non-forgetfulness, etc, I was always wondering - remembering what, non-forgetful of what? Here a quote from the Expositor (commentary to Dhs) is useful - I copy this from a post by Howard: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/118392 < < Quote Expositor pg.160: And as that jewel, the confidential adviser of the universal monarch, knowing what is disadvantageous and what is advantageous, removes the disadvantageous and promotes the advantageous, so mindfulness, searching well the courses of advantageous and disadvantageous states: - 'these are disadvantageous states, misconduct in body,' etc., removes the disadvantageous states, and acquires the advantageous ones: - 'these are advantageous states, good conduct as regards body,' etc. End quote > > pt: "Advantageous" I take it means kusala or wholesome, hence the rendering of "sati" as "remembering what's kusala" - as in recollecting that right now - seems most appealing to me of all the definitions of mindfulness. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125414 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 11:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasika in daily life -project -panna 1. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, Op 5-jul-2012, om 17:40 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D.Litt　 > > The panna-cetasika called vimamsiddhipada, pannindriya, panna-bala, > sammaditthi-magganga, are all dhammavicaya-sambojjhana. > Alternatively, the five panna-visuddhi[123] beginning with ditthi- > visuddhi, the three anu-passana-nana, the ten vipassana-nana are > called dhammavicaya- sambojjhanga.Just as cotton seeds are milled, > carded, etc., so as to produce cotton wool, the process of > repeatedly viewing the five khandha with the functions of vipassana- > nana is called dhammavicaya. ------- N: Thank you for all the info. I remember some debates about the five khandhas, defined as abstract, and some wondering why seeing is a khandha, wondering whether khandha not denote just a group? When we look at the text above: This does not sound abstract at all:vipassanaa ~naa.na: direct understanding in different stages. Being aware again and again and investigating. What? realities, paramattha dhammas or the khandhas. The five khandhas are nothing else but conditioned paramattha dhammas. Seeing, visible object appearing right now. Are these not khandhas? When we understand khandha as a reality right now it may not be strange to hear: seeing is khandha, visible object is khandha. I hear Kh Sujin say time and again: it is not sufficient to just study texts, names, terms. Study with awareness reality right now. Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Kh Sujin: < The term khandha refers to the dhamma that can be described as past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near. Hence, khandha is sa"nkhata dhamma, the dhamma that is conditioned, which arises and falls away, and thus, it can be described as past, present, future, etc > As Sarah also explained: it arises and falls away. One cannot say this of something abstract, or something that is only a group. A group or a whole is not object of satipa.t.thaana and vipassanaa ~naa.na. ------ This is a good explanation by Sarah: a happening, reminding us to study the present moment, present understanding being so precious: Sarah: ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125415 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasika in daily life -project -panna 1. moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina (Sarah and Howard), you wrote: by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D.Litt　 > > The panna-cetasika called vimamsiddhipada, pannindriya, panna-bala, > sammaditthi-magganga, are all dhammavicaya-sambojjhana. > Alternatively, the five panna-visuddhi[123] beginning with ditthi- > visuddhi, the three anu-passana-nana, the ten vipassana-nana are > called dhammavicaya- sambojjhanga.Just as cotton seeds are milled, > carded, etc., so as to produce cotton wool, the process of > repeatedly viewing the five khandha with the functions of vipassana- > nana is called dhammavicaya. ------- N: Thank you for all the info. D: You are wellcome .I suppose there are interesting details waiting to be discussed , useful in particular if we manage a common understanding of the meaning(s). N: I remember some debates about the five khandhas, defined as abstract, and some wondering why seeing is a khandha, wondering whether khandha not denote just a group? D: I suggest to agree on both definitions . If we want to be precise , we should have in mind what Ven. Nyanatiloka wrote: "The fact ought to be emphasized here that these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha..snip" For our general discussion khandha and 'it's dhammas' may be understood to be the same. N:When we look at the text above: This does not sound abstract at all:vipassanaa ~naa.na: direct understanding in different stages. Being aware again and again and investigating. What? realities, paramattha dhammas or the khandhas. The five khandhas are nothing else but conditioned paramattha dhammas. Seeing, visible object appearing right now. Are these not khandhas? When we understand khandha as a reality right now it may not be strange to hear: seeing is khandha, visible object is khandha. D: correctly speaking : the group or aggregate vinnana khandha includes the dhammas eye consciousness ,ear consciousness, etc. I like to quote Howard's nice comment recently : "For some reason, Sarah and some others, despite the clear meaning of 'khandha' as "group"/"collection"/"aggregate", call individual namas and rupas "khandhas," a usage I find odd but their usage nonetheless. So, whether it "grates on the ear" or not (LOL!), the usage should be understood and accepted for the sake of good conversation" I try my best :-) N: . I hear Kh Sujin say time and again: it is not sufficient to just study texts, names, terms. Study with awareness reality right now. D: yes, with sati (first place of the 7) as a base N: Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Kh Sujin: < The term khandha refers to the dhamma that can be described as past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near. Hence, khandha is sa"nkhata dhamma, the dhamma that is conditioned, which arises and falls away, and thus, it can be described as past, present, future, etc >As Sarah also explained: it arises and falls away. One cannot say this of something abstract, or something that is only a group. A group or a whole is not object of satipa.t.thaana and vipassanaa ~naa.na. ------ D "The term khandha refers to the dhamma that can be described as past, future or present" This is not yet clear to me ,because when we speak of reality , we speak of the present moment, don't we? So past (gone) and future (not yet there) are not reality . Reality is presented by Paramatha Dhamma , which is the Abhidhamma synonym for khandha. N:This is a good explanation by Sarah: a happening, reminding us to study the present moment, present understanding being so precious: Sarah: D: yes, precious . Taking care for others without thinking about advantages for oneself , has certainly much to do with Brahma Vihara when respective wholesome cetasikas accompany the citta. with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125416 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 2:44 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah, and Rob K., Ken H., all. If I may jump in for a couple of quick questions... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > Of course, rupas arise at a particular location... If rupas arise at a particular location, then I think we must either be talking about a sort of matrix of rupas that create that relative location, or about a physical world in which locations exist. If rupas arise at a particular location relative to other arising rupas - in other words, an experiential pattern of arisings of some sort, could you say a further word about how that works? Otherwise it would seem that rupas have no location, if there is no physical world, no matrix, within which they arise. > S: I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. If it is true that it is merely conventional language in order to talk about the paramatha dhammas in question, why designate a specific location in the body, and an association - a very sensible one - with a physical organ? It seems that this association must be purposeful and have a meaning other than merely using general conventional language. If the heart-base is located within the physical heart, in the blood that pumps through the heart in that location, that is a very specific and sensible association which shows some correspondence between the physical reality that we know as the "heart" and the function of the paramatha dhamma known as the heart-base. I think it would be strange to take such a clear association given by someone so advanced who is explaining this association in order to elucidate the functioning of the dhamma, and not take it as important and correct information. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125417 From: "colette_aube" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 4:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Life is a real test. was:Delisting announcement colette_aube Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah, > S: Even when we make our plans, we know anything can happen. Dhammas are never in our control. It doesn't mean we don't make plans, but there can be awareness anytime of thinking, attachment, seeing, visible object.....just ordinary dhammas. > > Lodewijk was being so kind, thinking of everyone's welfare. Sometimes we just can't manage everything we'd like to and it's time for equanimity. We can't stop having regrets but when there's awareness, it's apparent that these too are just moments of thinking with aversion. The Dhamma is so very practical - it always comes back to this moment. ---------- BALDERDASH! UTTER NON-SENSE! NO SIR! The entire problem is built on the foundation of "CONTROL" Dhammas, as you were saying, DO NOT MAKE PLANS but just as true DHARMAS ARE ONLY A GUIDE THAT POINTS IN A DIRECTION, DHARMAS ARE NOT RULES IN THEMSELVES i.e. CITTA. As long as the foundation exists, upon which a mind delusions or hallucinates an aspect of "CONTROL" then failure will always follow. This failure will leave a taste in the mouth of the victim and thus is created our good friend THE HUNGRY GHOST. Which pocket did I put that in? Am I actually sitting on CRAVING and DESIRE? Sure hope not since I'd rather leave those professionals in Bangkok doing what they do best <....> People have to consciously acknowledge the existence of their desire to CONTROL and to BE IN CONTROL, especially in this time, in this new world that we are experiencing TOGETHER. toodles, colette Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125418 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 9:14 am Subject: Re: Dustrags 4 philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E Correct at the end. No control. If I was going through life abusing people -and the basic awareness that would or would not tell me that it was happenening is uncontrollable but woupd probably arise due to its habitual arising- I would be worried. (Another uncontrollable but fairly predictable arising) But for some reason the only people I dislike these days are here at DSG, and you are one of them. There is no impulse arising to apologize for this, maybe there will be at a later time. Hard to say. Is Abhidhamma a conceptual framework to write about eloquently, with delight, endlessly, or the realities of this present moment? Or both? Anyways, hopefully there will be an end of Phil disliking Rob E. No way to know. You can call that misuse of Abhidhamma if you like. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Phil - you're back - what a surprise! > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > I would like to say again that posting this sort of thing and other pleas for kind and gentle speech indicates, in my opinion, a subtle belief in the ability to influence other people's behaviour. > > This is nothing but a misuse of Abhidhamma as an excuse for your own unkind comments. It shows a serious misunderstanding of the difference between 'no-control' and just being plain old irresponsible. Slapping someone and then saying 'not my fault it's due to conditions' is an abuse of the Dhamma, plain and simple. > > The fact is, you can take in what others say and you can respond to it. No 'you,' but if you are not stubborn, change can still take place - and should. > > > I *enjoy* disliking the people I dislike, I *enjoy* writing rude things to them. > > Well it's true that you are rude and seem to only care about what makes you feel good. What you enjoy is not important. You should control yourself. That's right, buck up and stop speaking this way. > > ... > > > Anyways, just wanted to post the above as a reminder for the next time there is an outbreak of bad behaviour and anyone feels the need to try to change others' behaviour. Better to have some bad behaviour than a belief in the controllability of dhammas. > > It's not an either/or choice. Actually people can criticize you and try to get you to change your behavior without having a belief in direct control. Everything conditions change, including what is said here. > > > I'll be gone again as soon as this is posted, so won't be able to respond further. > > You won't be gone, Phil. You promised this a week or two ago, but in fact you can't resist coming back just to harass people. > > > p.s I have come to realize that my problem here is not that I can't stand criticism or disagreement about Abhidhamma. It's just that I just plain dislike some people because of their tone, style of posting and other snooty aesthetic things, and strongly enough that I have decided to leave. > > Yet, you will not leave. I guess that's another thing you can't control. > > Best, > Rob E. > > = = = = = = = = = > Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125419 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 9:42 am Subject: Re: Dustrags 4 philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi again Rob E One reality I note is that I $don't$ enjoy disliking you at this moment, perhaps an apology is coming! Let's see.... ummmmmm.....ahhhhhh...nnnnnnngggg....no. But I don't dislike you at this moment. Sweet ephemeral blissful moment! And now remembering your last post to me and its unkind words and....oh! Surprise! Not-disliking-you is still here! But I will be gone. I am more interested in yoga and mysticism than Dhamma these days, I think it will be temporary, back to Dhamma focus someday, I predict (but cannot control, anatta.) Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125420 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 5:29 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear jon > > > Here is a post I wrote a week ago back where the visuddhimaga talks about the stream of continuity. Again no one commented and yet when i mention a few days ago the stream of arisind and passing elements, there are objections. > > > =============== > > > > J: Thanks Rob. The post you've copied here appears to consist of quotes from the Visuddhimagga. You say there was a post a few days ago that brought objections, but I've not been able to find it. > +++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Dear Jon, > I meant this one and following ones: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/125275 > RK: Of course nina, Buddhaghosa and me all know that > in reality there are only streams of evanescent namas and rupas arising and > passing away. What we call a dog is merely a designation for the elements right? > ------ > > KH: Right, but why do you also talk about streams? I have always noticed that > meditators (people who believe in control over dhammas) like to talk about > streams of dhammas. The rest of us (I would have thought} prefer to talk about > the presently arisen citta, cetasikas and rupas – or just the present > dhamma-arammana. > =============== J: As I read KenH's message, he's not objecting to the concept of a stream as such. He's questioning your statement that "Buddhaghosa and me know that in reality there are only streams of evanescent namas and rupas arising and passing away". His point, I believe, is that at the moment that what we take for a being is the object of consciousness, the reality is simply namas and rupas, and that any idea of a stream of cittas is just that, an idea and not direct knowing (for you, that is, although not necessarily for Buddhaghosa!). Rob, KenH is simply picking up on something you've said, and I don't see why you wouldn't respond to him as in any other thread (of course, there's always the option of not responding at all). You were, as you've explained, seeking to highlight his wrong understanding, so he no doubt feels entitled to question your comments in response -- a normal part of the cut and thrust of a such a discussion. Jon PS I express no view on the merits of the arguments for either `side', but since you asked me to comment on the way the discussion has progressed, I've done just that. Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125421 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 5:33 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Alex (& Rob E), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >A:What doesn't exist is something that is constant (nicca), >ultimately happy (sukha), and thing-in-itself (Atta) with the former >features. With this, we do not have problem with conventional >actions. > >======================================================== > >RE:Agreed. The only part that I am not sure about is no "atta with >the former features." Could you please explain what you mean by >that? > > ================================= > > >A: There isn't anything that is nicca and ultimately sukha. I agree with anatta as long as we don't take it to mean that no things exist at all. Conditioned dhammas do exist. Their arrangements into what we call "wholes" do exist. .... S: Are there any conditioned dhammas that exist other than names and rupas? Metta Sarah ===== #125422 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 5:45 pm Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >Kh Sujin: The development of pa~n~naa is a long process, ciira kala >bhaavanaa. > >============== > >A: And in the suttas the opposite is said. SN38 > > -"if a bhikkhu is practising in accordance with the Dhamma, would it take him long to become an arahant?" > -"Not long, friend. - SN38.16 > > NACIRA.M not cira kala! ... S: "If......." As I wrote: "...the test is at this moment as to how much uderstanding there is now of what appears. If there is an idea of catching or focussing on a reality or there is no idea what reality is appearing, we can be sure there needs to be a lot more listening, considering and careful reflection on dhammas as anatta." If there is no awareness, no understanding of the dhammas appearing now as anatta, not in anyone's control, it is not the practise "in accordance with the Dhamma". Is there any understanding of seeing now? Visible object? Hearing? Thinking? ... > The suttas are filled with with teachings of quick progress. In MN85 thge Buddha said that He could make good student an Arahant within one day. Satipatthana sutta promises arhatship within 7 days if one fully does it. Bahiya became an Arahant in a minute or so... etc etc. > > > >S: Alex will object, of course. > > Right, check the suttas. .... S: More precious is to check whether there is any understanding, any detachment towards the realities of life now. Do they appear or are they hidden by the cloak of ignorance? ... > >S:We don't have to think about when or how long, but the test is at >this moment as to how much uderstanding there is now of what > >========================== > > I think we do. Maybe the lack of quick progress is due to lack of right effort or understanding. ... S: When we're thinking and wondering about quicker progress and "how long?", what kind of cittas are these? Is that effort and understanding atta or anatta? ... > > While I understand that we have to be realistic, I do wonder about the correctness of "Buddhist" path that takes long time. I understand that "Arhatship this day" is highly unlikely, I also don't approve of thousands of lifetimes more of accumulations. This seems to me to be an excuse for not doing something right in the context of all that suttas have said. ... S: "Doing or not doing something right" ..... again this is an idea of atta, not the understanding of dhammas with detachment. Attachment, ignorance, ditthi ....all kinds of dhammas have to be known now. When there is understanding, there is no concern about when arahatship may occur. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125423 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 5:58 pm Subject: Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -panna 1. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, (Jon, Rob E & Rob K), Thanks for the good quotes on pa~n~naa. Unfortunately, when quoting from the dictionaries one needs to re-write the Pali words with diacriticals as otherwise they all come out like this, making it hard to read. A good way would be to retype panna or pa~n~naa and copy and paste wherever it shows. Pt may have other suggestions. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > PTS > > Pañña > > Pañña ( -- ˚) (adj.) [the adj. form of paññā] of wisdom, en- dowed with knowledge or insight, possessed of the highest cognition, in foll. cpds.: anissaraṇa˚ D ... S: For the others above, some of Mrs RD's comments might be an example of someone writing one thing (translating and presenting Abhidhamma, for example) whilst holding other beliefs such as "dry bones", "soul" and so on. Here she is writing about pa~n~naa, but her final conclusion is: > Mrs. Rhys David's comment on this important term is interesting. She writes:- "And in Gotama's reply, all those terms are described in terms of intellectual process. Nevertheless, it is clear that the term did not stand for bare mental process of a certain degree of complexity, but that it also implied mental process as cultivated in accordance with a certain system of concepts objectively valid for all Buddhist adepts. Hence I think it best to reject such terms as reason, intellect, and understanding, and to choose wisdom, or science, or knowledge, or philosophy. Only they must be understood in this connection as implying the body of learning as assimilated and applied by the intellect of a given individual". When the Dhamma is described thus and panna is seen as "applied by the intellect of a given individual"....."wisdom or science, or knowledge, or philosophy".... no wonder it seems like dry bones! Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125424 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 5:58 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125372) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > > > > =============== > > > RE: If one willfully kills beings, one generates akusala kamma, even if one knows that ultimately there are no beings. The caterpillars are not real as such, but the cittas and rupas that are produced when 'caterpillars are trampled' are real, and they create suffering for the 'caterpillar's cittas' and kamma for he who does the trampling. The blind man was blameless because he was blind, and thus had no choice and no desire to kill with regard to the caterpillars. > > > =============== > > > > J: I'm not sure that 'having no choice' is a relevant consideration. It's purely a matter of whether or not there's the intention to take life. > > RE: Well that makes sense to me, too, but if one "has no choice" that just clarifies that there is no intention to kill, even if some "crunching rupas" take place by happenstance. If there "were a choice" with no intention to kill, the monk would merely walk around the caterpillars and spare them the suffering of being crunched. > =============== J: Well, I don't think there is only 1 possibility. People act in all sorts of ways. The only thing that can be said with certainty is that if the requisite intention is not present, then it can't be kamma patha. > =============== > RE: In any case, your view on this contradict's Ken H.'s interpretation that the monk was fine because he understood that "there were really no caterpillars to kill" rather than the point that "there was no intention to kill," with which I agree. > =============== J: All that matters here is that we agree :-)) Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125425 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 6:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter (& Nina) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Dear Nina, all, > > you wrote: > > "Someone of our group remarked that he did not understand why the Thais > paid such deep respect ..." > > It has a lot to do as well with knowing (and overcoming ) one's conceit > (mana) .. ... S: I think it's good to highlight the mana. As we know, many people could not pay respect to the Buddha himself even. Mana and wrong view too, not understanding or appreciating the Teachings. Of course, having said this, respect is in the citta. We can only know our own at any moment. People may looks so respectful as they visit the Holy Places, as they visit temples, as they show respect to monks, but, as we know, there can be a lot of attachment, ignorance and wrong view in between any kusala cittas at such times. Understanding the Dhamma now, the realities appearing now is the greatest respect to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125426 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 9:14 pm Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125373) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: If we're talking about the contemplation of a conceptual object, then we're talking about samatha bhavana (not vipassana bhavana), right? > > RE: That is not what I had in mind. I am thinking of the development of pariyatti, which, if I understand it correctly, which I very well may not, involves the conceptual understanding of how dhammas actually behave. In other words, it is the understanding of how dhammas behave, but without yet actually being able to experience them directly. Please let me know where I am off-base. It seems that defining pariyatti is an adventure in swimming through quicksand. > > Anyway, contemplation of the direct characteristics of dhammas, etc., should lead to the development of understanding via pariyatti, not samatha bhavana. As I understand it, the kind of concept that leads to samatha bhavana are concepts such as the breath known on a conceptual rather than a direct level, and other objects of that sort, such as meditative nimittas, kasinas, etc. When talking about pariyatti I am talking about contemplation of Dhamma, not meditation objects. > ... > I am talking about contemplation of the concepts of Dhamma, not meditation. You may question this as well, but it's a very different subject. If you read a commentary and gain some understanding of what is being said about the characteristics of dhammas, or discuss them as we do here, and some understanding develops, that is the kind of thing I'm talking about. > =============== J: You are familiar with the 2 kinds of mental development spoken of in the texts: samatha bhavana (the development of calm/tranquility) and vipassana bhavana (the development of insight). Samatha bhavana involves the contemplation or recollection, with panna, of a conceptual object, whereas vipassana is the direct experience that knows, with panna, the characteristic of a dhamma. Now here's where it gets a bit tricky. One of the conceptual objects of *samatha bhavana* is the Dhamma (i.e., the teachings). So any "contemplation of the concepts of Dhamma", if kusala accompanied by panna, would have to be samatha bhavana rather than vipassana bhavana. And the beginning level of *vipassana bhavana* is the intellectual understanding of the teaching about dhammas, in which there is no actual direct experience of a dhamma but there is correct intellectual understanding about dhammas and the present moment. Hoping this illuminates, rather than conceals, the path through the quicksand :-)) Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125427 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2012 9:24 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobE (125386) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: There is a difference between having two sets of beliefs and having one real and one false belief. I don't think a scientist will announce something as true that he does not believe is actual, even though he may have a personal belief that appears to contradict it. Einstein said that "God doesn't play dice with the Universe," yet all of his work was about provable formulas, not spiritual pronouncements. I would say that those beliefs were not contradictory to him, not that one was a 'held' belief and the other was not. I think we can hold more than one belief at a time. > =============== J: I have no particular disagreement with what you write here (if I've understood you correctly). But a person reading Einstein's scientific work without knowing what he has said about 'spiritual' matters, and not viewing the work as simply part of a scientific/academic exercise, could well draw an incorrect conclusion about his held beliefs. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125428 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 12:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasika in daily life -project -panna 1. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, Op 6-jul-2012, om 17:54 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D "The term khandha refers to the dhamma that can be described as > past, future or present" > This is not yet clear to me ,because when we speak of reality , we > speak of the present moment, don't we? So past (gone) and future > (not yet there) are not reality . Reality is presented by Paramatha > Dhamma , which is the Abhidhamma synonym for khandha. ------- N: Also the Abhidhamma teaches about the khandhas. Present can have several meanings. Here are some quotes from my Vis. studies, Ch XIV: The Tiika explains that the classifications of present, past and future as extent (or life span, addhaa), as continuity (serial presence, santati) and as period, samaya, are figurative expressions (sapariyaaya), not literal (nippariyaaya). It explains that there are other dhammas (aññe dhammaa) at present, that there were other dhammas in the past and that there will be other dhammas in the future. This refers to the classification of extent, addhaa, etc. Not to the classification as to moment, kha.na). As we shall see, only the classification according to moment, kha.na, is to be taken literally. ****** Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 190. Intro: In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with moment, kha.na. Kha.na is different from the word moment as it is used in conventional language where it has a wider meaning. Whereas kha.na has a very precise meaning. It refers to the infinitesimally short moments of naama and ruupa. Citta has its arising moment, the moment of its presence and the moment of its dissolution. Ruupa lasts seventeen times longer than citta, or, if we take into account the three moments of citta, fiftyone times longer than citta. Ruupa has its arising moment, the moments of presence and the moment of its dissolution. When a sense object impinges on a sensebase, a complete sense-door process of cittas can experience that object which has not fallen away. The cittas of a complete sense-door process and the preceding bhavanga-cittas are seventeen in number. Since ruupa lasts seventeen moments of citta it can be experienced by the cittas of a sense-door process. After it has just fallen away it is experienced through the mind-door. The Expositor deals with many meanings of the term arisen, uppanna. We read: Thus, kha.na does not refer to life period, nor to serial presence. It refers to moment in the ultimate sense, namely arising, presence, and dissolution. ----------- Text Vis. 190: (d) 'According to moment': what is included in the trio of moments, [that is to say, arising, presence, and dissolution] beginning with arising is called 'present'. At a time previous to that it is 'future'. At a time subsequent to that it is 'past'. ------------------------------ The Tiika explains that the classification according to moment, kha.na is according to time (kala). ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125429 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear pt, Op 6-jul-2012, om 12:20 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > "Advantageous" I take it means kusala or wholesome, hence the > rendering of "sati" as "remembering what's kusala" - as in > recollecting that right now - seems most appealing to me of all the > definitions of mindfulness. ------ N: In the Questions of King Milinda III, 7, 1 (Book III, Ch 7) we find 16 or 17 kinds of sati, here translated as memory. It has to be remembrance that is kusala. One can remember kusala and akusala of the past (saranato). In the case of akusala, one realizes that it was wrong, "not again". Usually we think of the past with lobha and dosa, but we see that this is useless. It can be the object of sati, accompanying kusala citta. The explanations in the text are very short and Kh Sujin in a recording gives more explanations. For example: by calculation, gananato: one remembers in classifications of realities how many of this or that. I think even when looking up Pali words in a dictionary, this can be with sati. We remember former dukkha (ahita vi~n~naanato) and former sukha (hita vi~n~naanato). Former sukha cannot return, it is impermanent. We just remember stories about it. Or we see someone who is like our deceased father or mother, this can be remembered with sati (sabhaaga nimittato). Yes, I remember this sometimes, seeing someone in a wheelchair like my late father. Does he need help? Actually all these examples show us that there are always reminders for sati in everyday life. We can consider Dhamma in all the details of our life. Never enough. ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125430 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 12:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dustrags 4 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Op 7-jul-2012, om 1:42 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > And now remembering your last post to me and its unkind words > and....oh! Surprise! Not-disliking-you is still here! ------- N: I just listened to KK , in March, and there you spoke quite differently from your last posts. About kusala: never enough! You repeated that. Gentle and kind speech are among kusala siila. Our manners, as Kh Sujin explained. You seemed to agree :-)) ----- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125431 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 12:56 am Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 7 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, When we come to know realities as they are there will be more truthfulness in our life. When, for example, sound appears and there is mindfulness of sound as only a reality, we will know sound as it is. We will know hearing as it is, visible object as it is, seeing as it is. We shall have a clearer understanding of what our life really is: only nåma and rúpa. When delusion about reality diminishes we shall be less inclined to delude ourselves and others. When the Bodhisatta was the elephant Chaddanta (Chandanta Jåtaka, no. 51) he was pierced in the navel by a poisonous shaft, but he had no hate towards the hunter. When the hunter told him that he had been ordered to take his tusks for the queen of Kåsi, Chaddanta knelt down, cut off his own tusks and gave them to the hunter. After that he died. When the Bodhisatta was the Great Monkey he pulled a man out of a rocky chasm (Jåtaka no. 71). The man who was hungry and wanted to eat the monkey dashed a stone on his head. The monkey looked at him with eyes full of tears and warned him for the result of such a deed: “Oh act not so, good sir, or else The fate you reap will long deter All others from such deeds as this That you would do to me today.” The monkey felt no hate and wanted to help the man; regardless of his own pain he saw to it that the man reached his journey’s end in safety. The Buddha who had practised mettå without equal preached mettå to others. We read in the “Mettå Sutta” (Sutta-nipåta vs. 143-152): “... May creatures all be of a blissfull heart. Let no one work another one’s undoing Or even slight him at all anywhere; And never let them wish each other ill Through provocation or resentful thought...” Venerable Dhammadharo related to us an example of mettå. A woman in Indonesia lost her husband because of the reckless driving of a young man. They caught the young man and brought him to her but she did not want to have him sent to court and even wished to pay for his education. This woman had mettå without limits. -------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125432 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi pt, you wrote: I was planning to assemble quotes on mindfulness, but when going through the 'Sati' section in the Useful Posts file, I noticed that most of the quotes are already there, so I'll just point to a couple that seem very useful to me: A post by Nina on technical intricacies of the definitions of mindfulness (remembering, non-forgetful, guarding, etc), quotes mostly from Vis and its commentary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42882 Further, while often the modern commentators mention the aspects of remembering, non-forgetfulness, etc, I was always wondering - remembering what, non-forgetful of what? D: I think the framework of satipatthana is meant (i.e. being mindful of body, feeling,mind and mind-objects ) i.e. in relation to recognizing what is going on here-and-now. pt: Here a quote from the Expositor (commentary to Dhs) is useful - I copy this from a post by Howard: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/118392 < < Quote Expositor pg.160: And as that jewel, the confidential adviser of the universal monarch, knowing what is disadvantageous and what is advantageous, removes the disadvantageous and promotes the advantageous, so mindfulness, searching well the courses of advantageous and disadvantageous states: - 'these are disadvantageous states, misconduct in body,' etc., removes the disadvantageous states, and acquires the advantageous ones: - 'these are advantageous states, good conduct as regards body,' etc. End quote > > D: it describes Right Effort (the effort of avoiding or overcoming evil and unwholesome things, and of developing and maintaining wholesome things ) pt: "Advantageous" I take it means kusala or wholesome, hence the rendering of "sati" as "remembering what's kusala" - as in recollecting that right now - seems most appealing to me of all the definitions of mindfulness. D: I understand advantageous states in such way that right effort provides a base for sati (and jhana) with Metta Dieter P.S: I like to follow Sarah's advise : "Unfortunately, when quoting from the dictionaries one needs to re-write the Pali words with diacriticals as otherwise they all come out like this, making it hard to read. A good way would be to retype panna or pa~n~naa and copy and paste wherever it shows. Pt may have other suggestions." I tried to use the Pali Digital reader , but Fire Fox crashes for -so far - unknown reasons . Do you have any idea what to do except retyping? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125433 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 3:09 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, all, >S:Are there any conditioned dhammas that exist other than names and >rupas? >================================== The "whole" made up of parts ("nama&rupa") does exist as "whole" that is anicca, dukkha, anatta. With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125434 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 3:32 am Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, all, >S: If there is an idea of catching or focussing on a reality or >there is no idea what reality is appearing, we can be sure there >needs to be a lot more listening, considering and careful reflection >on dhammas as anatta." > >If there is no awareness, no understanding of the dhammas appearing >now as anatta, not in anyone's control, it is not the practise "in >accordance with the Dhamma". > >Is there any understanding of seeing now? Visible object? Hearing? >Thinking? >=============================================== The mind is going to think of something or intend something, so it might be better to focus on Dhamma and kusala rather than akusala. >S: More precious is to check whether there is any understanding, any >detachment towards the realities of life now. Do they appear or are >they hidden by the cloak of ignorance? >======================================== And even better, develop more and more understanding and dispassion. What to check if one's wisdom and kusala is not growing? >S: When we're thinking and wondering about quicker progress and >"how long?", what kind of cittas are these? Is that effort and >understanding atta or anatta? >========== There is difference between tanha and wholesome motivation for the path. Without latter progress cannot be made, at least for a beginner. > S: "Doing or not doing something right" ..... again this is an idea >of atta, not the understanding of dhammas with detachment. >===================== It is a statement of reality. Something is going to be done, so it might as well be something kusala* rather than akusala. *even if kusala means reading a Dhamma book or contemplating realities. >S:Attachment, ignorance, ditthi ....all kinds of dhammas have to be >known now. When there is understanding, there is no concern about >when arahatship may occur. >======================== You keep saying about knowing if wisdom, and other qualities are present or not, but what about developing more kusala? With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125435 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 12:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Dieter, > D: I think the framework of satipatthana is meant (i.e. being mindful of body, feeling,mind and mind-objects ) i.e. in relation to recognizing what is going on here-and-now. pt: My thinking is that it would have to be a bit more fundamental than that. I.e. sati arises not just in moments of satipatthana, but also with all other kusala cittas that are not satipatthana, and most of them aren't. > D: it describes Right Effort (the effort of avoiding or overcoming evil and unwholesome things, and of developing and maintaining wholesome things ) ... > D: I understand advantageous states in such way that right effort provides a base for sati (and jhana) pt: Again, I'd think it would be a bit more fundamental than that. I mean, effort can be a power, sure, but so can mindfulness. And then, as mentioned before, there are all the other kusala cittas that are not "right". > P.S: > I tried to use the Pali Digital reader , but Fire Fox crashes for -so far - unknown reasons . Do you have any idea what to do except retyping? pt: Perhaps using a transliterator/converter is the quickest: http://www.granthamandira.com/diCrunch/diCrunch.php Here's a bit on how to use it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/122319 Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125436 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 8:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dustrags 4 philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina Yes, of course, gentle speech, kind manners, they develop - or they don't. There is a lot of confidence about how I support my students, some of them mentally troubled to a degree that tge school staff thinks they should be hospitalized. I have taught thousands and thousands of hours in the classroom without showing displeasure, that is the way conditions are at wowk in me. They are, alas, not at work in a way that conditiins patience and generosity at DSG. For me, now, tge greatse value of Dhamma is the anatta aspect. I am also interested in another religion in which atta is glorified. I feel tyat modern Buddhism as practiced popularly and promoted by the oft-quoted "99% " on the internet is rooted in well being for the self, and emotional comfort at tge expense of a true appreciation of the teaching that sets Dhamma apart from all otger ways, anatta. And I sometimes feel DSG places an emphasis on friendly co-exstence at all cost. That feeling of mine is akusala, rooted in ignorance. But it is tgere, it is the way conditions are playing out for me. I would rather understand that than turn away from it in regretful panic and plead for forgiveness. Obviously it would be much better and happier for me if I felt brotherhood with everyine here, but I don't, I dislike some people. Those people hopefully have enough understanding of Dhamma to know that this being disliked is simply a function of akusala dhammas and won't be upset by it. As for you I also hope that you understand this. Because you are elderly and respected deeply should I take care to be gentler so DSG is always a warm and happy place for you to discss Dhamma. Yes, I should. But shoulds don't carry much weight when it comes to the functioning of a cumulated akusala, as you know. Kusala. Never enough. Agrred. Kysala at every opportunity. Agreed. But f it always worked that way the Buddha wouldn't have needed to teach in the world. Anyways, thank you Nina. No further comment. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil, > Op 7-jul-2012, om 1:42 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > And now remembering your last post to me and its unkind words > > and....oh! Surprise! Not-disliking-you is still here! > ------- > N: I just listened to KK , in March, and there you spoke quite > differently from your last posts. About kusala: never enough! You > repeated that. Gentle and kind speech are among kusala siila. Our > manners, as Kh Sujin explained. You seemed to agree :-)) > > ----- > Nina. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125437 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 10:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dustrags 4 philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello again Nina Thinking again about your point. At work, kusala arises because it has become tge tendency for it to arise. I don't intend to be a generous, caring teacher and don't plan to. It just happens, no matter how ill-tempered I feel when I arrive at work. On the other hand, I have always behaved badly here, starting with my entertaining fight with James in 2004 and over the years leading up to my current irritation with certain people. I don't intend to or want to, it just happens. That won't change, could have something to do with the internet, I wouldn't dislike those people face to face. Accumulated tendencies. They are real. If we expect to change them we will fall into the akusala of self-rooted striving. (There are exceptions to this when forceful intervention is possible, as with Lukas seeking professiinal treatment for his drug addiction. No rehabilitation possible for rude soeech! Well, actually, there is. I could misunderstand the Dhamma to tge degree that I would choose to do "metta meditation" wuth certain people as the " diffucult person" and it would impact my beviour towards them, that is my experience, but fortunately there are conditions for abstaining from self-rooted, lobha-rooted practices such as "metta meditation." No panicking and running away from akusala for me, at this time. Thanks for your understanding. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125438 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 1:33 pm Subject: Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina, > N: One can remember kusala and akusala of > the past (saranato). In the case of akusala, one realizes that it was > wrong, "not again". Usually we think of the past with lobha and dosa, > but we see that this is useless. It can be the object of sati, > accompanying kusala citta. Thanks, that is interesting, I haven't really considered this aspect before - remembering kusala and akusala of the past, with sati now. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125439 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 2:14 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah, ----- <. . .> >> KH: One momentary set of five khandhas arises and falls away, and that is all there is to a sentient being, or dog. A completely new set of five khandhas is conditioned to take it's place, and so there is a completely new dog. (Or a completely new "that which we call a dog.") >> > S: I don't know that we can even talk about a "set of five khandhas" arising and falling away, followed by "a new set". Each reality, each khandha arises and falls away, different from each other reality. Whilst its true that each citta, each vinnana khandha must be accompanied by vedana, sanna and at least 5 more cetasikas, each sankhara khandha and that these namas arise and fall away at the same time, they don't arise and fall away at the same time as any rupas. ------- KH: Thanks, I can never remember which rupas arise with which namas – even though you and others have explained it to me. So, when seeing consciousness falls away to be replaced by viriya consciousness, and then by mind consciousness etc., the eye base rupa remains (even though it is no longer in use)? I was thinking it would fall away. I might have asked you this before, but sometimes a sense-door citta process lasts less than 17 citta moments, doesn't it? Is that because the sense rupa was not strong, or is it because the arresting citta (or the citta that began the citta process) was not strong? My theory was that the rupa didn't last. And so I decided by analogy that the eye-base rupa would also not last 17 moments. Now that I think about it, I am at least partly right, aren't I? If I had better internet access I would check the DSG files, but we commonly say "rupa lasts for up to 17 citta moments," don't we? So why would we assume the sense base rupas last 17 moments? ------------------ > S: For example, at the moment of seeing, seeing consciousness (vinnana khandha), the seeing arose together with vedana (vedana khandha), sanna (sanna khandha) and 5 more cetasikas (each sankhara khandha). However the visible object which appears had already arisen along with the other rupas in its kalapa as condition for seeing to arise. Furthermore, that visible object lasts for up to 17 cittas. All the other rupas conditioned by kamma, such as masculinity or femininity and so on are also arising and falling away all the time according to their own conditions and timing, rather than as a 'set' with the cittas, as I see it. ------------------ KH: Thanks for pointing that out. I will try to see it that way too but, knowing me, we will be having this same conversation again. Once I get something in my head – right or wrong – it tends to stay there. :-) ----------- > S: Anyway, always back to this moment as you'd say - and the more understanding there is now of various dhammas when they appear, the less misled we'll be into thinking that a dog or any *thing* exists now or at any other time. Hope you're enjoying your holiday. ---------- KH: Having a great time thanks – even though not much sunshine. But it's the same wherever we go, just one citta lasting one citta moment. Plus whatever rupas there might be! :-) Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (348) #125440 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 10:01 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 8 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, The Buddha who extended mettå to all beings without exception exhorted others to have mettå as well. When we are treated unjustly by others we may wonder whether we should do anything about it. When we develop satipatthåna we shall understand more clearly that “we” cannot do anything. The experience of praise and blame, honour and dishonour is only vipåka which arises because of conditions. We read in the “Parable of the Saw” (Middle Length sayings I, 21) that the Buddha said: “... Monks, as low-down thieves might carve one limb from limb with a double-handed saw, yet even then whoever sets his mind at enmity, he, for this reason, is not a doer of my teaching. Herein, monks, you should train yourselves thus: ‘Neither will our minds become perverted, nor will we utter an evil speech, but kindly and compassionate will we dwell, with a mind of friendliness, void of hatred; and, beginning with him, we will dwell having suffused the whole world with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide- spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence.’ This is how you must train yourselves, monks. If you, monks, were to attend repeatedly to this exhortation on the Parable of the Saw, would you, monks, see any way of speech, subtle or gross, that you could not endure?” “No, Lord.” “Wherefore, monks, consider repeatedly this exhortation on the Parable of the Saw; for a long time it will be for your welfare and happiness.” Thus spoke the Lord. Delighted, these monks rejoiced in what the Lord had said. In many lives the Bodhisatta had given the example of such mettå as he preached in the “Parable of the Saw”. We might find this parable rather incomprehensible. Is it not going too far to “dwell with a mind of friendliness” even when we are being carved limb from limb? Those who develop satipatthåna will understand this parable. When we see that our life is nåma and rúpa we will not try to “do” anything about people who treat us badly. There is seeing now, can we “do” anything about it? There is hearing now, can we “do” anything about it? We see and hear pleasant and unpleasant things, but we cannot prevent seeing and hearing from arising. They are only vipåka, arising because of conditions. All that matters is right understanding of the nåmas and rúpas that appear. When there is right understanding of realities we can cope with difficult situations in our life, without the need to “do” anything. ---------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125441 From: Lukas Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 11:01 pm Subject: Short reflection to share szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Even with dosa, no matter how strog and unpleassant, there also ayatana comes. They comes all the time. I think this is good to not forget. Just ayatanas meet, they go they own way, with anger or not. This are only ayatanas, no one there. Best wishes Lukas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125442 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unicode converter. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear pt, I copied all, not sure if I can work with it. And then, when sent on Email, will it keep Unicode? Alex seems to be very succesful with this. Nina. Op 8-jul-2012, om 4:55 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > pt: Perhaps using a transliterator/converter is the quickest: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dustrags 4 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, I understand what you mean. On internet intonation and facial expression is missing. A situation different from classroom situation. Kh Sujin always stresses: think more of the other person's welfare, not of yourself, but you know all these things. Nina. Op 8-jul-2012, om 2:01 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > On the other hand, I have always behaved badly here, starting with > my entertaining fight with James in 2004 and over the years leading > up to my current irritation with certain people. I don't intend to > or want to, it just happens. That won't change, could have > something to do with the internet, I wouldn't dislike those people > face to face. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125444 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -panna 1. moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah and others interested, you wrote : Thanks for the good quotes on pa~n~naa. Unfortunately, when quoting from the dictionaries one needs to re-write the Pali words with diacriticals as otherwise they all come out like this, making it hard to read. A good way would be to retype panna or pa~n~naa and copy and paste wherever it shows. Pt may have other suggestions. D: yes, thanks to Pt's good advise it may work now .. (testing.. ) PTS Pa~n~na Pa~n~na ( -- ˚) (adj.) [the adj. form of pa~n~naa] of wisdom, en- dowed with knowledge or insight, possessed of the highest cognition, in foll. cpds.: anissara.na˚ D i.245; S ii.194; iv.332; anoma˚ Sn 343; appa˚ S i.198; J ii.166; iii.223, 263; avakujja˚ A i.130; gambhiira˚ S i.190; javana˚ S i.63; Nd2 235; tikkha˚; dup˚ D iii.252, 282; S i.78, 191; ii.159 sq.; M iii.25; A ii.187 sq.; Dh 111, 140; Pug 13; DhA ii.255; nibbedhika˚ S i.63; A ii.178; Nd2 235; pu.thu˚ ibid.; bhaavita˚ S iv.111; A v.42 sq.; bhuuri˚ S iii.143; iv.205; manda˚ VbhA 239; mahaa˚ S i.63, 121; ii.155; A i.23, 25; ii.178 sq.; Nd2 235; SnA 347; sap˚ S i.13, 22, 212; iv.210; A iv.245; Pv i 88; 115; PvA 60 (=pa.n.dita), 131 (+buddhimant); suvimutta˚ A v.29 sq.; haasa˚ S i.63, 191; v.376; Nd2 235. By itself (i. e. not in cpd.) only at Dh 208 (=lokiyalokuttara -- pa~n~naaya sampanna DhA iii.172) and 375 (=pa.n.dita DhA iv.111). Buddh. Dict. pa~n~naa .aunderstanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight.a, comprises a very wide field. The specific Buddhist knowledge or wisdom, however, as part of the Noble Eightfold Path (magga, q.v.) to deliverance, is insight (vipassanaa, q.v.), i.e. that intuitive knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and the realization of Nibbaana (s. ariyapuggala), and which consists in the penetration of the impermanency (anicca, q.v.), misery (dukkha, s. sacca) and impersonality (anattaa) of all forms of existence. Further details, s. under tilakkhana. D: why ' however'? ..it is 'wisdom endowed with knowledge or insight (PTS) . I think as a matter of speech , we use ' panna ' replacing avijja , don't we ? S: For the others above, some of Mrs RD's comments might be an example of someone writing one thing (translating and presenting Abhidhamma, for example) whilst holding other beliefs such as "dry bones", "soul" and so on. D: I guess there is hardly any translator of Abhidhamma text without an association like 'dry bones' ..well, she uttered it ;-) S:Here she is writing about pa~n~naa, but her final conclusion is: > Mrs. Rhys David's comment on this important term is interesting. She writes:- "And in Gotama's reply, all those terms are described in terms of intellectual process. Nevertheless, it is clear that the term did not stand for bare mental process of a certain degree of complexity, but that it also implied mental process as cultivated in accordance with a certain system of concepts objectively valid for all Buddhist adepts. Hence I think it best to reject such terms as reason, intellect, and understanding, and to choose wisdom, or science, or knowledge, or philosophy. Only they must be understood in this connection as implying the body of learning as assimilated and applied by the intellect of a given individual". When the Dhamma is described thus and panna is seen as "applied by the intellect of a given individual"....."wisdom or science, or knowledge, or philosophy".... no wonder it seems like dry bones! D: your objection is not yet clear to me .. By :'.. to choose wisdom, or science, or knowledge, or philosophy. Only they must be understood in this connection as implying the body of learning as assimilated and applied by the intellect of a given individuaI' , she implies pariyatti and patipatti , doesn't she? It is not that I think she said it very well , but... with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125445 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 3:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of our hands? ( was Re: To Phil. Dhamma recording moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Pt, you wrote: (D: I think the framework of satipatthana is meant (i.e. being mindful of body, feeling,mind and mind-objects ) i.e. in relation to recognizing what is going on here-and-now.) pt: My thinking is that it would have to be a bit more fundamental than that. I.e. sati arises not just in moments of satipatthana, but also with all other kusala cittas that are not satipatthana, and most of them aren't. D: I haven't studied Satipatthana Vibhanga , so you may have something more detailed in mind . Generally speaking the fundament of (samma) sati is laid down by the Maha Satipatthana (assuming we may agree on this) . > D: it describes Right Effort (the effort of avoiding or overcoming evil and unwholesome things, and of developing and maintaining wholesome things )... > D: I understand advantageous states in such way that right effort provides a base for sati (and jhana) pt: Again, I'd think it would be a bit more fundamental than that. I mean, effort can be a power, sure, but so can mindfulness. And then, as mentioned before, there are all the other kusala cittas that are not "right". D: not really power , right effort means to pay attention for the wholesome mind-state , which provides the ground for right mindfulness (and right concentration) . Possibly the distinction between Manasasikara and Sati .. (?) It is important to keep the basics of the Noble Path training in mind when applying the Abhidhamma perspective. (D:> P.S: > I tried to use the Pali Digital reader , but Fire Fox crashes for -so far - unknown reasons . Do you have any idea what to do except retyping?) pt: Perhaps using a transliterator/converter is the quickest: http://www.granthamandira.com/diCrunch/diCrunch.php D: thanks , Pt. After I got what means unicode and veltuis , this converter seems to work very well. with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125446 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2012 10:13 pm Subject: Re: Dustrags 4 philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi again Rob E By the way, I really think you don't have to worry about being harassed by my from now on, I know and you know how often I have talked about leaving DSG for a good little while, but I really do feel the time has come, as I have said I have another religion I am interested in now. I like that old chestnut about "if you love someone set them free, if the love is true, they will return" or whatever it is. I am pretty confident that my connection to Dhamma will survive, but for now I am going in a different direction (with quite a few parallels to Dhamma) for awhile, to something I was interested in before Dhamma, it feels fresh now. And so Dhamma will feel fresh again someday. So not to worry, you are really into Dhamma, discussing a lot, feel at ease, I will not be lurking, ready to pounce. This one visit was in response to having seen that Dustrags series, that's all. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi again Rob E > > One reality I note is that I $don't$ enjoy disliking you at this moment, perhaps an apology is coming! Let's see.... ummmmmm.....ahhhhhh...nnnnnnngggg....no. But I don't dislike you at this moment. Sweet ephemeral blissful moment! And now remembering your last post to me and its unkind words and....oh! Surprise! Not-disliking-you is still here! > > But I will be gone. I am more interested in yoga and mysticism than Dhamma these days, I think it will be temporary, back to Dhamma focus someday, I predict (but cannot control, anatta.) > > > Phil > Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125447 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 5:06 am Subject: uploaded discussions sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, It's with pleasure that we're writing to say we've uploaded some more part-edited audio discussions: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Editing in Progress section below the edited discussions with Ajahn Sujin: Bangkok, March 2011 5 March: (1), (2). 12 March: (1), (2), (3), (4), (5). ***** Metta Sarah ====== [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125448 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 5:49 am Subject: Ajahn Sujin's trip to Poland. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, As discussed before, Lukas is organising a Dhamma discussion trip in Poland with Ajahn Sujin and friends from overseas and Poland. For overseas visitors, the following is his rough itinerary. The costs are very reasonable in Poland and he can arrange free or even cheaper accommodation for those on a tight budget. Jon and I will be going, also Alberto from Italy, hopefully Ann from Canada. It would be lovely if anyone else from DSG can join. I do hope those in Europe, like Vince and Dieter, will seriously consider it. It's not necessary to stay the full 7 days - you'd be welcome just to join for a couple of days. If anyone is considering it or would like more info, pls let Lukas or I know. Metta Sarah ***** From Lukas: Day 0, Taking Acharn from Warsaw Airport. Collecting all coming friends, if they come this day. Taking a Van or mini bus for around 15 people, and traveling to Olsztyn (Around 3 h). Coming to the Kur Hotel. This is very nice, with high standard hotel, in a quiet and calm area set aside 3 km from the town center Of Olsztyn. Hotel has it's own access to a beach(lake, this region of poland is famous from forests and lakes). If possible some informal discussion with Acharn and coming friends at the hotel langue. Having a diner/ breakfest in a hotel. Day 1 Breakfast for Acharn. Morning Dhamma discussions. Sightseeing Olsztyn. An Old town or taking some walk to a nearby forest. Afternoon discussions. Day 2 Morning, evening discussions in a town. Some good restaurants that are here, with proper space. There is a possibility to went for a day and night(or even more if needed) to some turistic facilities, like farm, in a forest. They provide usaully accomodation, at least 3 dinners all based on local farm products, like a goat cheese etc and have a rest time there. Very quiet there with a lot of nature around. Day 3 Still staying there for a half of day and coming back to Olsztyn afternoon. A dinner in restaurant with all our friends. Dhamma discussions. Day 4 (Weekend) Eating a breakfast. Going to Biskupiec, a small very beautiful town in Mazury, Going to local hotel Atelier. Eating a dinner. A big restaurant room there good for dhamma discusions. A short walk, through nature. An official meeting with Polsih friends that come in a big conferency room. Coming back to hotel. Day 5 (Weekend) Breakfest with some polish friends that stayed for a night. Here the whole afternoon con be spend for sightseeing, nearby forests and attractions. Afternoon talk Day 6 Coming back to Olsztyn. Next to Dhamma discussions, some rest. Day 7 A day to plan. Setting of to Warsaw? This is very short plan and all depends on Acharn. In a few days I will give all more details, including places with photos and more descriptions. there is quite a lot to see and a lot places for dhamma discussions. Some kind of attractions like swiming pools, sauna, spa and much more. Each day I was thinking of two morning and evening Dhamma discussions. Me myself wants to benefit as much as I can from Acharn staying here, so I think I may bother Acharn in a car of some Dhamma issues :P The Kur Hotel in Olsztyn, the one I picked for Acharn and also coming Dhamma friends(if interested) cost around 70 USD and this includes all facilities, with berakfeasr, dinner and supper. This is hotel in a very nice and calm area with access to lake and forest. For others, if needed cheaper accomodation, I can look and arrange reservations for different Olsztyn hotel, with lower standard but for around 10 USD. This is just a very short plan, and nothing it's fixed, it's all flexible to Acharn. I will think more on a places for Dhamma talks, there is a planty of them. I will expand this schedule more and send it one more time. This is a plan for only 7 days (4th - 11th Sept), but maybe Acharn want to stay longer? > Best wishes Lukas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125449 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 2:46 pm Subject: Re: What some says give no indication of view epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > The mind is a slippery instrument! :-) I've tried to hold mine still, but it doesn't seem to take! > > ========== > > J: I've noticed the same thing; it seems to have a mind of its own! :-) Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (11) #125450 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 7:04 pm Subject: Re: Unicode converter. ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina, > I copied all, not sure if I can work with it. And then, when sent on Email, will it keep Unicode? Alex seems to be very succesful with this. I'm not sure, I think it depends on what you are doing. If you are using the transliterator I linked to convert texts in Unicode with diacritics into text in Unicode Velthuis, then it should work. But if you are using it for text in pCharter, then I think it won't work. I think this is because pCharter is an old ASCII font, which doesn't seem to conform even with current Western ISO encoding, much less with Unicode, when it comes to diacritics. So, as I understand it, you'd first need to convert from pCharter into Unicode, and then use the converter I linked to convert from Unicode with diacritics into Unicode Velthuis. I haven't yet found a converter that would do both of these things in a simple way. Perhaps Alex knows of one. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125451 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 7:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Unicode converter. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear pt, Thank you. I am not thinking of pCharter, Alan has not trouble with this. I am only thinking of quotes in Pali texts and putting them on Email. I shall try. Nina. Op 9-jul-2012, om 11:04 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > If you are using the transliterator I linked to convert texts in > Unicode with diacritics into text in Unicode Velthuis, then it > should work. But if you are using it for text in pCharter, then I > think it won't work [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125452 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 9, 2012 7:16 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 9 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Upekkhå, equanimity, is another one of the perfections the Buddha had fulfilled. Upekkhå is in this case not indifferent feeling but the wholesome cetasika tatramajjhattatå, which literally means: keeping in the middle of things, evenmindedness. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” ( XIV, 153) that its function is to prevent deficiency and excess or to inhibit partiality. It is manifested as neutrality. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (IX, 124) that Bodhisattas through upekkhå expect no reward. The Bodhisatta cultivated impartiality towards all beings since he had made the resolve to become a Buddha for the sake of all beings. He did not expect any reward in return. We read in the “Cúla-Dhammapåla Jåtaka" (no 358) that when the Bodhisatta was born as Prince Dhammapåla, his father the King Mahåpatåpa became enraged when the Queen was playing with him and did not rise when he entered the room. Out of jealousy he ordered the executioner that his hands and feet were lopped off like bamboo shoots. After that the King ordered that his head be cut off as well. The infant Prince Dhammapåla had no trace of hate, but he had firmly resolved thus: “Now is the time to restrain your mind; now, good Dhammapåla, be impartial towards these four persons, that is to say, towards your father who is having your head cut off, the man who is beheading you, your lamenting mother, and yourself.” We read in the “Greater Discourse on the Lion’s Roar” (Middle Length Sayings, I, no. 12) that the Buddha related to Såriputta his ascetical practices to which he had applied himself before his enlightenment: “Then I, Sariputta, lay down to sleep in a cemetery, leaning on a skeleton. Cowherd’s boys, having come up to me, spat and staled on me, and showered me with dust and stuck twigs into my ears. But I, Såriputta, well know that I was not the creator of a malign heart against them. This then came to be for me, Såriputta, through abiding in even-mindedness.” _______ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125453 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:18 am Subject: Re: Unicode converter. truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello Pt, Nina, When using pali fonts I send messages using email. When I don't use them, I send messages using the website. Also, it might be helpful to download and install various pali fonts such as found at: http://www.tipitaka.org/vriroman-fonts http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp_pali.htm With best wishes, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > > I copied all, not sure if I can work with it. And then, when sent on > Email, will it keep Unicode? Alex seems to be very succesful with this. > > > I'm not sure, I think it depends on what you are doing. If you are using the transliterator I linked to convert texts in Unicode with diacritics into text in Unicode Velthuis, then it should work. But if you are using it for text in pCharter, then I think it won't work. I think this is because pCharter is an old ASCII font, which doesn't seem to conform even with current Western ISO encoding, much less with Unicode, when it comes to diacritics. So, as I understand it, you'd first need to convert from pCharter into Unicode, and then use the converter I linked to convert from Unicode with diacritics into Unicode Velthuis. I haven't yet found a converter that would do both of these things in a simple way. Perhaps Alex knows of one. > > Best wishes > pt > Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125454 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Unicode converter. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, thank you for the trouble. The downloads are above me, besides I do not have Windows but Mac OSX. Best for me to use Velthuys. Nina. Op 9-jul-2012, om 16:18 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > When using pali fonts I send messages using email. When I don't use > them, I send messages using the website. > > Also, it might be helpful to download and install various pali > fonts such as found at: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125455 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:26 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah Thanks, I visited the mahavihara today in Anuradhapura. Very inspiring to be in the same area where Buddhaghosa composed the Visuddhimagga. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Rob K, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > >R: The idea of these processes occuring in the " brain" seems so caught up in cultural ideas and self to me. > > > ... > > > S: I don't remember anyone saying this. I think Ken H has repeatedly stressed it is exactly what he isn't saying. I think he's said many times that if there's an idea of dhammas situated in conventional ideas of things - whether they be brains, pumps, blood or anything else, it's missing the point, but I'll leave you both to pursue that one! > > > > > > I think there is a communication issue between the two of you. > ... > S: [Pls note that this does not mean I think you are saying the same thing!!] > .... > >R: Please again explain why the visuddhimagga said it was in the blood in the conventiona heart, was buddhaghose missing the point? Or am I the only one in all of buddhaland that doesn't get it? > ... > S: No of course Buddhaghosa wasn't "missing the point". No one has suggested this for a moment. Buddhaghosa and the great disciples whose commentaries he compiled had no doubt about the realities they were discussing here or elsewhere. However, for us it's different. Do our studies help us to understand the realities appearing now or is there the idea of 'some thing' or 'some place'? For example, in one of your recent posts you wrote: > > ">R: That special kammic matter will arise wherever there is the suitable conditions, including blood (or even a blood substitute). Although now, for us, it arises inside the > body inside the heart, it can certainly arise in a pump, or anywher suitable." > > Now you will say that your reference to blood, blood substitute , heart and pump are to various rupas. So you seem to be saying we have rupa conditioned by kamma arising inside rupas conditioned by kamma or in the case of the pump, rupa conditioned by kamma arising inside rupas conditioned by temperature. Is that correct? > > There are simply conditioned namas and rupas arising and falling away. Of course, rupas arise at a particular location, but as soon as we have the idea of "arm", "eye", "heart", "blood', "pump" and so on as having any existence at all, we are forgetting that the teachings are for the understanding of anatta, not atta. > ... > > Why don't you ask kenh and clarify. He says it is. I wonder why he said that " looking back the commentries might say we got that one ( about the heart base ) wrong" or words to that effect? > .. > S: I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125456 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:44 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah (and RobK), you wrote: :" I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. " D: I read recently that the Buddha never refered to the (location of) heart base. Any canonical source to support the opposite? with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125457 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, you wrote: ('Someone of our group remarked that he did not understand why the Thais > paid such deep respect ..."> D: It has a lot to do as well with knowing (and overcoming ) one's conceit > (mana) .. ... S: I think it's good to highlight the mana. As we know, many people could not pay respect to the Buddha himself even. Mana and wrong view too, not understanding or appreciating the Teachings. D: right , those who are/were ignorant of the very deepness and wisdom of the teaching. Either it is not knowing ( with a chance to learn respect of the Buddha Dhamma) or not wanting to know ( the materialists and/or those having arranged themselves with the world and it's suffering.) S: Of course, having said this, respect is in the citta. D: accompanied by which cetasika? I thought about absence of mana , however mana involves not only the conceit to be superior , but as well to be inferior . Probably it is the level of panna which determines kusala or akusala (?) S:We can only know our own at any moment. People may looks so respectful as they visit the Holy Places, as they visit temples, as they show respect to monks, but, as we know, there can be a lot of attachment, ignorance and wrong view in between any kusala cittas at such times. D: rites and rituals are part of our social life . I think what makes the difference is whether it comes from the heart which I.M.H.O. has much to do with Brahma Vihara.. S:Understanding the Dhamma now, the realities appearing now is the greatest respect to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. D: and even more if this understanding of reality , i.e. knowledge and clearseeing according to actuality , serves as condition for disentchantment, dispassion and so detachment. with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125458 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:40 am Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, RobK, all, I just did a search on hadayavatthu. In Tipitaka it seems to occur only once, in Milindapanha, which happened long after the Buddha. Is there any other relevant pali word I can search for? With metta, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Dear Sarah (and RobK), > > you wrote: > > :" I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. " > > D: I read recently that the Buddha never refered to the (location of) heart base. > Any canonical source to support the opposite? > > with Metta Dieter > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125459 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Alex(and Nina), thanks , I think it has been mentioned that hadayavatthu 'entered' Theravada Buddhism due to tradition.. but I would like to read that in Milindabanha .. do you have the link? Another word or compound is 'chandaraagavinayakkhaayii' ["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"] which as far as I know only occurs in . http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta3/21-Khandha\ -Samyutta/01-01-Nakulapituvaggo-p.html it refers to Ven.Sariputta instructing monks what the Buddha taught (Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire." or 'Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of desire and lust' Seperating the compound : Chandaraaga occurs as well e.g. in A.N.IX,23 (Nyanatiloka translates greed of the will ,in a footnote mentions 'C.: weak greed ' Vinayakkhaayii : I could not find a source . Although it is clear that the Buddha taught the abolishment or removal of desire, I am still wondering how vinaya can be used as a synonym for removal, or subduing.. Perhaps you may find a clue ..(? ) with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125460 From: Alex Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, all, chandarāgavinayakkhāyÄ«Â is found 12 times in one sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.002.than.html I don't see how it relates to talk about heart base. When it comes to Questions of King Melinda (Milindapañha), do you have pdf file of it? There you can search for "heart" or whatever else interests you. I like when some files are in pdf format because it can allow me to search for key words that interest me. What I find interesting is that I've heard the news where some person had a heart transplant and suddenly started to get some new and strange memories from that other person.... Very interesting. If this isn't a fake sensationalist yellow-press, it appears to hint that memories are physical and can be implanted in a new person... With best wishes, Alex qtl { position: absolute; border: 1px solid #cccccc; -moz-border-radius: 5px; opacity: 0.2; line-height: 100%; z-index: 999; direction: ltr; } qtl:hover,qtl.open { opacity: 1; } qtl,qtlbar { height: 22px; } qtlbar { display: block; width: 100%; background-color: #cccccc; cursor: move; } qtlbar img { border: 0; padding: 3px; height: 16px; width: 16px; cursor: pointer; } qtlbar img:hover { background-color: #aaaaff; } qtl>iframe { border: 0; height: 0; width: 0; } qtl.open { height: auto; } qtl.open>iframe { height: 200px; width: 300px; } [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125461 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, you wrote: chandarāgavinayakkhāyÄ« is found 12 times in one sutta. D: yes, I know .. the question is whether it is the only sutta where it occurs A: I don't see how it relates to talk about heart base. D: well , I thought your offer was more broad: 'Is there any other relevant pali word I can search for?' :-) never mind.. A: When it comes to Questions of King Melinda (Milindapañha), do you have pdf file of it? There you can search for "heart" or whatever else interests you. I like when some files are in pdf format because it can allow me to search for key words that interest me D: R.D. translation is available to me http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/index.htm in which book/chapter did you find the heart base? A: What I find interesting is that I've heard the news where some person had a heart transplant and suddenly started to get some new and strange memories from that other person.... Very interesting. If this isn't a fake sensationalist yellow-press, it appears to hint that memories are physical and can be implanted in a new person. D: yes, interesting (see my message dated June 12 ,Dr. Paul Pearsall 'The Heart's code), I am not sure what to make out of it with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125462 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, all, From what I've seen, I couldn't find anything interestening regarding heart-basis even in Milindapanha. Maybe that word didn't have the technical meaning that later commentaries gave it. If I remember correctly, somewhere I've read that heart basis was added later on. Personally, I prefer Buddha Dhamma to be more psychological and keep away from ontological statements as much as possible. With best wishes, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > you wrote: > > chandarāgavinayakkhāyÄ« is found 12 times in one sutta. > > D: yes, I know .. the question is whether it is the only sutta where it occurs > > A: I don't see how it relates to talk about heart base. > > D: well , I thought your offer was more broad: 'Is there any other relevant pali word I can search for?' :-) > never mind.. > > > A: When it comes to Questions of King Melinda (Milindapañha), do you have pdf file of it? There you can search for "heart" or whatever else interests you. I like when some files are in pdf format because it can allow me to search for key words that interest me > > D: R.D. translation is available to me http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/index.htm > in which book/chapter did you find the heart base? > > A: What I find interesting is that I've heard the news where some person had a heart transplant and suddenly started to get some new and strange memories from that other person.... Very interesting. If this isn't a fake sensationalist yellow-press, it appears to hint that memories are physical and can be implanted in a new person. > > D: yes, interesting (see my message dated June 12 ,Dr. Paul Pearsall 'The Heart's code), I am not sure what to make out of it > > with Metta Dieter > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125463 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob K, Wonderful. I am just revising my pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, rereading all about the places. < In Anurådhapura we stayed in the Government Agent’s residence, a peaceful place with trees all around it, in the old city of Anurådhapura. His house is within walking distance of the “Ruvanvelisåya”, the great stupa (dagaba) which King Dutthagåmaní started to build. Relics of the Buddha have been enshrined in this stupa. It is illuminated every night and there are always people walking around it and reciting stanzas. We visited the stupa several times and on one occasion, while we were walking around it, Acharn Sujin spoke to our hostess about satipaììhåna. She reminded us to be mindful of only one reality at a time, as it appears through one of the six doors. We should not mix up the six doorways. We cannot know visible object and tangible object, a reality appearing through the bodysense, at the same time. She said: “When a reality appears, it does so only through one doorway. Leave the other doorways alone.” Don’t we try to think of many “things” instead of being aware now? The Bodhi-tree in Anurådhapura which is near to the “Ruvanvelisåya” is another place of worship we visited. The sacred tree stands on a high terrace and it is surrounded by a golden rail. Generally one does not have access to the tree, but one of the monks who was in attendance allowed us to go up to the terrace, in order to pay respect. One night the same monk arranged for about a hundred white lotus flowers which we placed all around the tree. The monks who were leading the procession around the tree chanted stanzas, and we had an opportunity to look at the new sprout of the tree that had grown recently, several months ago. It seems that we are far away from the Buddha’s time, but so long as satipaììhåna is taught and pratised we are not far away. The old city of Anurådhapura and its surroundings are full of stupas, old monuments and places of commemoration. One of our hosts took us in a jeep to Tantirimale, which is not far from Anurådhapura. Saògamitta and her retinue who brought the sapling of the Bodhi-tree from India, stopped in Tantirimale for a rest, on the way to Anurådhapura. A shoot of the Bodhi-tree was planted in this spot. Today one can still see this tree which grows on a rocky ground where nothing else will grow. In the olden times several saplings of the Bo- dhitree were planted in different places, and later on thirty-two saplings were distributed all over the island. Many relics of the Buddha have been brought from India to Sri Lanka. The relic of the Buddha’s right collarbone has been enshrined in “Thupåråma”, which is situated in Anurådhapura. > ------- Have a fruitful journey, Nina. Op 9-jul-2012, om 17:26 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > Dear Sarah > Thanks, I visited the mahavihara today in Anuradhapura. Very > inspiring to be in the same area where Buddhaghosa composed the > Visuddhimagga. > Robert > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125464 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter and Alex, Op 9-jul-2012, om 20:12 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > Alex: Very interesting. If this isn't a fake sensationalist yellow- > press, it appears to hint that memories are physical and can be > implanted in a new person. ----- N: Memories fall away with the citta, do not stay. We cannot explain such strange happenings, but there must be conditions. Does this help understanding of this moment now? Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125465 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Dieter, all, >N:Memories fall away with the citta, do not stay. >We cannot explain such strange happenings, but there must be >conditions. Does this help understanding of this moment now? >============================== How do you explain implanting of memories through physical means (ex: heart transplant)? VsM XIII,9 states that one can read person's mind by somehow seeing the color of blood in heart's cavity. "But how is this knowledge to be aroused? That is successfully done through the divine eye, which constitutes its preliminary work. Therefore the bhikkhu should extend light, and he should seek out (pariyesitabba) another's [manner of] consciousness by keeping under observation with the divine eye the colour of the blood present with the matter of the physical heart as its support.5 For when [a manner of] consciousness accompanied by joy is present, the blood is red like a banyan-fig fruit; when [a manner of] consciousness accompanied by grief is present, it is blackish like a rose-apple fruit; when [a manner of] consciousness accompanied by serenity is present, it is clear like sesamum oil. So he should seek out another's [manner of] consciousness by keeping under observation the colour of the blood in the physical heart thus 4This matter is originated by the joy faculty; this is originated by the grief faculty; this is originated by the equanimity faculty', and so consolidate his knowledge of penetration of hearts." - VsM XIII,9 With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125466 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka. rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina. Very nice to read. We went to the Ruvanvelisaya, the Mahabodhi tree, the Jetavana and thuparama. Also while driving could see the stupa erected on the mountain where Venerable Mahinda first arrived and met the king. And the place where he ordained 500 men for the first time. Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob K, > Wonderful. I am just revising my pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, rereading > all about the places. > < In Anurådhapura we stayed in the Government Agent's residence, a > peaceful place with trees all around it, in the old city of > Anurådhapura. His house is within walking distance of the > "Ruvanvelisåya", the great stupa (dagaba) which King Dutthagåmaní > started to build. Relics of the Buddha have been enshrined in this > stupa. It is illuminated every night and there are always people > walking around it and reciting stanzas. We visited the stupa several > times and on one occasion, while we were walking around it, Acharn > Sujin spoke to our hostess about satipaììhåna. She reminded us to > be mindful of only one reality at a time, as it appears through one > of the six doors. We should not mix up the six doorways. We cannot > know visible object and tangible object, a reality appearing through > the bodysense, at the same time. She said: "When a reality appears, > it does so only through one doorway. Leave the other doorways > alone." Don't we try to think of many "things" instead of being > aware now? > The Bodhi-tree in Anurådhapura which is near to the "Ruvanvelisåya" > is another place of worship we visited. The sacred tree stands on a > high terrace and it is surrounded by a golden rail. Generally one > does not have access to the tree, but one of the monks who was in > attendance allowed us to go up to the terrace, in order to pay > respect. One night the same monk arranged for about a hundred white > lotus flowers which we placed all around the tree. The monks who were > leading the procession around the tree chanted stanzas, and we had an > opportunity to look at the new sprout of the tree that had grown > recently, several months ago. It seems that we are far away from the > Buddha's time, but so long as satipaììhåna is taught and pratised we > are not far away. > The old city of Anurådhapura and its surroundings are full of stupas, > old monuments and places of commemoration. One of our hosts took us > in a jeep to Tantirimale, which is not far from Anurådhapura. > Saògamitta and her retinue who brought the sapling of the Bodhi-tree > from India, stopped in Tantirimale for a rest, on the way to > Anurådhapura. A shoot of the Bodhi-tree was planted in this spot. > Today one can still see this tree which grows on a rocky ground where > nothing else will grow. In the olden times several saplings of the Bo- > dhitree were planted in different places, and later on thirty-two > saplings were distributed all over the island. > Many relics of the Buddha have been brought from India to Sri Lanka. > The relic of the Buddha's right collarbone has been enshrined in > "Thupåråma", which is situated in Anurådhapura. > > ------- > Have a fruitful journey, > Nina. > > > > Op 9-jul-2012, om 17:26 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > > > Dear Sarah > > Thanks, I visited the mahavihara today in Anuradhapura. Very > > inspiring to be in the same area where Buddhaghosa composed the > > Visuddhimagga. > > Robert > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125467 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:52 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon, and Ken H, Rob K & Howard. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > KH: So I hope you can see I wasn't talking about a series or "stream" of dhammas. According to my understanding, there is no stream. One momentary set of five khandhas arises and falls away, and that is all there is to a sentient being, or dog. A completely new set of five khandhas is conditioned to take it's place, and so there is a completely new dog. (Or a completely new "that which we call a dog.") > > > =============== > > RE: First, I'd like to take the opportunity to say that in a sense I agree with what Ken H. describes here ... To think the dog is a being that has eternal continuity and that has an internal identity is a mistake, but to think that nothing of what we see exists when we see "dog" is also a mistake. > =============== J: Will leave it to KenH to confirm whether this is what he had in mind ... > =============== > > J: Rob E, I'm just wondering if what you're referring to is the fact that each citta is related to one that preceded it and one that follows it by contiguity condition (among others). > > RE: Yes that is at the very least an important part of what I am referencing. > > > J: So are you perhaps saying that cittas that are so related can be regarded as being in a 'stream'. > > RE: Well of course they are creating the conditions for each next one, like dominoes, and thus have a very lawful and identifiable relationship from moment to moment. To say that this is not the case would be to ignore the obvious. > =============== J: Not sure how appropriate the analogy of dominoes is. In the case of the cittas of a steam, the preceding citta must fall away completely before the succeeding one can arise (and that falling away is one of the conditioning factors). It is not said that the preceding citta in any sense *causes* (nor "creates the conditions for") the arising of the succeeding one; there are other forces at play here, one of which is that there are certain fixed orders of cittas (Pali: niyama), for example, the order of cittas in a sense-door process. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125468 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina & Rob K, Lovely to hear that you're in Anuradhapura and the area, Rob! Nina, I remember our trip as you describe below (1977) well! It was so wonderful staying in the lovely old house in the old city and just being able to wander over to the stupas many times, having lovely curries with our hosts and discussions together. I learnt so much from all the little reminders too, such as eating a little bit of everything out of courtesy for the hosts, forgetting about vegetarian preferences and so on. Respect and manners, fitting in, being easy to take care of. K.Sujin would always give extra attention, extra dhamma reminders to the hosts wherever we stayed. The best 'gift'. Our overseas group consisted of four lay- people only - you, K.Sujin, K.Douangduen and myself - all sharing a room in the house. I learnt about getting up early in the day. K.Duangduen would wake at about 5.00, turn on the light and start doing her laundry and other chores. I thought this was so strange at the time, but I've been an early riser more-or-less ever since! Now my young nieces think I'm the strange one when they visit me and find I've gone for an early walk and swim by 6.00, having done some chores already. The white lotus flowers we placed round the bo tree - so beautiful. Lots of attachment, I remember in between any wise reflections or respect for the Buddha and his teachings. We were all excited about the new sprout of the bo tree as there had been concern about its health. Again, many different cittas, including lots of lobha, wishing so much for the tree to be healthy and grow. Thx for sharing and Rob, glad to hear about the places you're visiting. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob K, > Wonderful. I am just revising my pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, rereading > all about the places. > < In Anurådhapura we stayed in the Government Agent's residence, a > peaceful place with trees all around it, in the old city of > Anurådhapura. His house is within walking distance of the > "Ruvanvelisåya", the great stupa (dagaba) which King Dutthagåmaní > started to build. <.....> Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125469 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:56 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:Are there any conditioned dhammas that exist other than names and >rupas? > >================================== > > The "whole" made up of parts ("nama&rupa") does exist as "whole" that is anicca, dukkha, anatta. ... S: So you suggest there is a) a 'whole' which is anicca, dukkha and anatta that is made up of b) namas and rupas. Qus: 1. Is the 'whole' which you say is anicca, dukkha and anatta, a paramattha dhamma or a concept? 2. Are the namas and rupas, which you suggest are parts of this 'whole', anicca, dukkha and anatta as well? Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125470 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:28 pm Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: >A: The mind is going to think of something or intend something, so it might be better to focus on Dhamma and kusala rather than akusala. ... S: Yes, "the mind is going to think of something or intend something." Why? Because there are conditions, tendencies, habits, to think a particular way, to intend one way. Like now, even as I write to you, my mind is thinking about the chirpy birds and the waves I can hear outside my window. I didn't plan or intend to think about them or to be distracted as I write, but there are simply conditions, accumulated inclinations, after seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching to think in different ways about various ideas and stories. Yes, reflecting about the Dhamma in a kusala way would be more beneficial after hearing sounds than reflecting in an akusala way about birds flying home to roost and the surf conditions for tomorrow. However, all dhammas are anatta. No on, no one at all, can select or choose what cittas will arise next. Thinking that one should be able to or wishing to just have kusala cittas is not the way for understanding and other kinds of kusala to develop. Now, I just jumped up to have a look at a kayak (boat) trying to get into the shore in the waves and before it gets dark. Would it be better if I didn't jump up and down while posting or closed the curtains to try and suppress the attachment? There are no rules at all, when it comes to the development of satipatthana - the development is natural. Any dhamma at all, including present attachment, can be the object of awareness. I just replied to Nina about when I was young and joined her and K.Sujin in Sri Lanka. I remember the host of the house where we were staying in Anuraddhapura saying something to the effect that he was so surprised that someone so young and fun-loving could be interested in the Dhamma. K.Sujin explained to him that there could be awareness any other kind of cittas, any kind of realities and it didn't matter at all what the age, nationality, lifestyle, interests were. The understanding of dhammas appearing now is all that matters. ... > >S: More precious is to check whether there is any understanding, any >detachment towards the realities of life now. Do they appear or are >they hidden by the cloak of ignorance? > >======================================== > > And even better, develop more and more understanding and dispassion. > > What to check if one's wisdom and kusala is not growing? ... S: Again the present reality - is it thinking, despair, doubt, attachment, disappointment, seeing, hearing? What kind of reality tries to measure or is so concerned about progress? Remember the adze handle, Alex. It may seem that there's no progress, but asking the right questions, like this one, appreciating that there is more and more ignorance, more and more akusala is a growth in understanding. In the beginning, we think there's a lot of kusala and a lot of understanding. Then understanding develops a little and it becomes more and more obvious that a lot of what we took for kusala (such as in the example I just gave about laying the white lotus flowers around the tree in Anuraddhapura) is mostly akusala. ... > >S: When we're thinking and wondering about quicker progress and >"how long?", what kind of cittas are these? Is that effort and >understanding atta or anatta? > >========== > > > There is difference between tanha and wholesome motivation for the path. Without latter progress cannot be made, at least for a beginner. .... S: Now, we're discussing the Dhamma and reflecting on various dhammas. There are kusala cittas with kusala chanda at such moments when the reflections are wise ones. The motivation is there already. ... > > S: "Doing or not doing something right" ..... again this is an idea >of atta, not the understanding of dhammas with detachment. > >===================== > > It is a statement of reality. Something is going to be done, so it might as well be something kusala* rather than akusala. ... S: Like now, discussion about the Dhamma. Kusala and akusala according to conditions, not to choice. .... ... > *even if kusala means reading a Dhamma book or contemplating realities. ... S: Reading a dhamma book can be with kusala or akusala cittas. This is why the path comes down to the citta now, not the activity. ... > >S:Attachment, ignorance, ditthi ....all kinds of dhammas have to be >known now. When there is understanding, there is no concern about >when arahatship may occur. > >======================== > > > You keep saying about knowing if wisdom, and other qualities are present or not, but what about developing more kusala? ... S: If there is no knowing what kinds of dhammas arise now, including kusala and akusala dhammas, how can kusala ever develop? How can it ever be understood? Thx for the good questions. Let's discuss this further. Metta Sarah p.s. I've just got an idea. Next Thursday, Pt is going to come over to visit us (in Sydney). Why don't we Skype/call you for a short Dhamma chat? It would be sometime on Wed evening Edmonton time. Pls let us know if you're interested. =========== Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125471 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, Op 10-jul-2012, om 8:50 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Our overseas group consisted of four lay- people only - you, > K.Sujin, K.Douangduen and myself - all sharing a room in the house. > I learnt about getting up early in the day. K.Duangduen would wake > at about 5.00, turn on the light and start doing her laundry and > other chores. I thought this was so strange at the time, but I've > been an early riser more-or-less ever since! ------- N: Yes, the memory is so vivid, like it was yesterday. I just told Lodewijk about Kh Duangduen, so early, and her alarmclock. When going around the stupa there was thunder and rain. Kh Sujin could not care less that she got quite wet. The white lotuses, I guess this was a gift of Kh Sujin. Ven. Dhammadharo and other monks leading the procession, going around the Bo tree. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125472 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E & all, ________________________________ > From: Robert E >If rupas arise at a particular location, then I think we must either be talking about a sort of matrix of rupas that create that relative location, or about a physical world in which locations exist. If rupas arise at a particular location relative to other arising rupas - in other words, an experiential pattern of arisings of some sort, could you say a further word about how that works? Otherwise it would seem that rupas have no location, if there is no physical world, no matrix, within which they arise. ... S: You raise many good points as usual. Actually, to be more precise, it's the cittas which arise at a particular location. In this realm, cittas all need a base - eye-base for seeing, ear-base for hearing or heart-base for most cittas. Let's talk about the touching of hardness now as we hit the computer key. The hardness rupa experienced, arises in a kalapa and falls away instantly. Clearly that hardness experienced at that instant is different from the hardness experienced when touching one's arm, even though they are both just hardness (pathavi) rupas. Does that mean we can say the hardness experienced when touching the keyboard or that experienced when touching one's arm actually arise inside other rupas? No. It just means that in both instances the experiencing of a particular hardness is a result of kamma, experienced through the body-sense. At either moment, there is the coming together, the meeting of body consciousness (and accompanying mental factors), a tangible object and body-sense. These are different dhammas which arise and fall away by their own conditions. At that instant, a particular body consciousness experiences a particular tangible object at a particular body-sense or base rupa. (Body-sense rupas arise and fall away all over what we take for our body). There will never again be the same body consciousness arising, the same tangible object experienced or the same body-sense rupa as support. It's the same when other cittas arise and experience their particular objects at heart-base. It is just the meeting of dhammas, the ayatanas. Understanding the ayatanas helps us to understand that apart from dhammas, there is nothing else at all. As soon as we have ideas about "experiential pattern', "matrix of rupas", "physical worlds" where rupas arise, we're lost again in the world of ideas. > >> S: I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. .... >R: If it is true that it is merely conventional language in order to talk about the paramatha dhammas in question, why designate a specific location in the body, and an association - a very sensible one - with a physical organ? It seems that this association must be purposeful and have a meaning other than merely using general conventional language. ... S: It's like when we talk about the body-sense location of the finger when touching the keyboard. It's just correct conventional language (sammuti or vohara sacca) to indicate that rupas are different, cittas arise at different locations, i.e at different rupa bases. Heart-base itself does not arise in the same place that eye-sense or 'finger' body-sense arises. They arise in different kalapas according to complex conditions. We could describe in ordinary language in detail the point of the finger where the body-consciousness taps the keyboard and experiences hardness. It would be for reference, correct sammuti sacca, to indicate that point of experiencing where that body-sense is. It wouldn't mean there was a literal finger - or set of rupas represented by the finger - inside which the other body-sense rupas arose. ... >If the heart-base is located within the physical heart, in the blood that pumps through the heart in that location, that is a very specific and sensible association which shows some correspondence between the physical reality that we know as the "heart" and the function of the paramatha dhamma known as the heart-base. I think it would be strange to take such a clear association given by someone so advanced who is explaining this association in order to elucidate the functioning of the dhamma, and not take it as important and correct information. ... S: What is important is to understand dhammas now. If the information we read helps us understand more about what appears now, it's useful. That's all. If it helps us to understand that what we take for 'person' are really just different namas and rupas arising and falling away according to conditions, it's useful and important. If it leads to more speculation, more ideas about fingers, computers, organs, transplants, blood and pus without any awareness of dhammas, it's not useful. Thanks for helping me to reflect on this topic. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125473 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:26 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 10 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, The Buddha wanted to help all beings and he taught without partiality to anybody who was ready to listen. He was not partial towards his son Raahula. Raahula asked him many questions about Dhamma and, thus, he taught Råhula as he would teach others who asked him questions. In the “Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold (Sense-) Field” (Middle Length Sayings III, no 137) we read that the Buddha spoke to the monks about the “three arousings of mindfulness”, practising which an ariyan disciple is fit to instruct a group: “...As to this, monks, a teacher teaches Dhamma to his disciples, compassionate, seeking their welfare, out of compassion, saying: ‘This is for your welfare, this is for your happiness.’ But his disciples do not listen, do not lend ear, do not prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, turning aside, move away from the teacehr’s instruction. Herein, monks, the Tathaagata is neither delighted nor does he experience delight, but dwells untroubled, mindful and clearly conscious....” We read that in the case that some disciples do not listen and others listen, the Tathaagata is neither delighted nor depressed. “Having ousted both delight and depression, he dwells with equanimity, mindful and clearly conscious.” In the case that his disciples listen, the Tathaagata is delighted and he experiences delight, but “he dwells untroubled, mindful and clearly conscious.” ******** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125474 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, >________________________________ > From: Nina van Gorkom > >N: Yes, the memory is so vivid, like it was yesterday. ... S: Amazing, what we remember! (Mostly useless, of course). I can have trouble remembering a name someone told me a minute ago or my own telephone number, but remember a funny mixture of odd details and a few dhamma comments and reminders from long ago. It just shows how anatta such thinking, such tendencies are - no one could plan for it or make it happen like this. .... >I just told >Lodewijk about Kh Duangduen, so early, and her alarmclock. >When going around the stupa there was thunder and rain. Kh Sujin >could not care less that she got quite wet. ... S: I remember this was a novel idea to me as well - walking around in the thunder and rain without an umbrella. When I commented to her, she said it was "warm rain". True. Different from the rain in Europe! "Life exists in a moment" she'd say. When giving health or other reasons why I ate some foods and not others, she'd say: "Khun Sarah, the citta now is more important. Consideration for our hosts is better". ... >The white lotuses, I guess this was a gift of Kh Sujin. Ven. >Dhammadharo and other monks leading the procession, going around the >Bo tree. .... S: Yes, it was a very special occasion. The monks and the lay-people all looked so serene, so calm, so respectful, I thought. However, as we were continually reminded, we can only ever know our own cittas. Who knows what kinds of thoughts anyone else is having at any moment and it's not of any importance. All that is of interest is the understanding of the realities appearing now - the seeing, the visible object, the thinking, attachment or other dhammas. And then I remember you telling me about how you prepared meals for Lodewijk for the entire time we were away - a few weeks. With each meal placed in the freezer there was a Dhamma reminder or quote. (Of course, I may have the details a little wrong). What does Lodewijk remember about opening those reminders with his meals? Did he use to worry about you on the trips? Of course, in those days we had no computers, smart phones or telephone access, so when we went on trips, we had no communication with family members. Metta Sarah p.s. I remember Alan uploaded the list of quotes I made from the trip. If I can find them, perhaps I'll repost them. I didn't finish posting the article on Attachment because I left Hong Kong and lost the file. Maybe I'll finish it when I'm back in H.K. ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125475 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:53 pm Subject: what I heard, six worlds. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Acharn Sujin: Six worlds. No matter whether we are listening to the Dhamma, walking home, eating, through the eyes only visible object appears and this characteristic does not change. After that there is thinking and this is varied. Sound is experienced through the ears, and that characteristic does not change, but thinking after hearing is varied. We are not together with another person but with citta that experiences visible object and with citta that thinks, with citta that experiences sound and with citta that thinks, with citta that smells odour and with citta that thinks. We are alone in our own world. The world seems so large, but there is only one citta that experiences an object and then falls away. We think that we have to blame someone else, we have like and dislike, but we are alone. There is no person, only one citta that sees and one citta that thinks. We think of another person but there is only citta that thinks and then falls away. There is no end to thinking but all objects of thought fall away with the citta, even thinking falls away. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125476 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, Op 9-jul-2012, om 21:18 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > How do you explain implanting of memories through physical means > (ex: heart transplant)? ------- N: No idea. I will not try to understand because I cannot understand everything in the world. The present moment is already very difficult to understand. ------- > > A:VsM XIII,9 states that one can read person's mind by somehow > seeing the color of blood in heart's cavity. ------ I remember. It shows that citta conditions ruupa. ---- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125477 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:32 am Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, all, >S:1.Is the 'whole' which you say is anicca, dukkha and anatta, a >paramattha dhamma or a concept? >============================= It is experiential truth. I don't want to drive into a tree at 100 km/h. If one is hungry, one opens the fridge and eats. Spoon has different function from a knife. If one is thirsty, one drinks water. Cup does exist. >2.Are the namas and rupas, which you suggest are parts of this >'whole', anicca, dukkha and anatta as well? >============================ Yes. Whole and the parts are inconstant. Whole thing will eventually break apart. We can't base our happiness on them. With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125478 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Thank you for your reply. With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125479 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:15 am Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, all, Thank you very much for your post. >S:...reflecting about the Dhamma in a kusala way would be more >beneficial after hearing sounds than reflecting in an akusala way >about birds flying home to roost and the surf conditions for >tomorrow. >================= You have had good examples with birds, who also btw, chirp outside and the hearing is not due to "me choosing to hear" but due to impersonal conditions. As for reflecting, and considering, do you think it is good to read over and over again some inspiring passages on anicca, asubha, dukkha, anatta? I do agree regarding accumulation of conditions so that good states naturally arise. But even then, -> 1)what is the role of present intention? 2)Is thinking "Things are conditioned, no control, so whatever akusala happens, let akusala happen" is itself another condition for more akusala and thus, is wrong? 3) Should one try to be good in the present, even though this is fully conditioned, and whatever happens is due to conditions. I prefer to communicate through postings like here. With metta, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125480 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina and Alex,RobK , all, just between.. you wrote: (A.How do you explain implanting of memories through physical means > (ex: heart transplant)?) ------- N: No idea. I will not try to understand because I cannot understand everything in the world. The present moment is already very difficult to understand. ------- D: I agree , for us such understanding is not (yet) needed for our development .. but one should never exclude that a seemingly dispensable piece of information may show to have something in common with other parts of information/experience and so supporting a ' broader picture' > A:VsM XIII,9 states that one can read person's mind by somehow > seeing the color of blood in heart's cavity. ------ N:I remember. It shows that citta conditions ruupa. ---- D: reading the quotation , I assume Ven Buddhagosa intended an elaboration of the 6 Higher Powers (abhinna) and relied on comments orginated by monks with deep Jhana experience . To read a person's mind refers to ' penetration of the minds of others (ceto-pariya-ñana) '. I can imagine that but it sounds a bit strange to learn, that has someting to do with seeing the color of blood in heart's cavity . Well that may be so .. we will know whenever we may enjoy such experience. with Metta Dieter . P.S.: a bit more about blood ..to whom it may concern ;-) -'The Hippocratic school held that four humors: blood, black bile, yellow bile and phlegm consists the basis for the four types of temperaments' - Chinese medicine 'Southern Blood Types ' -and last but not least Web translation from: http://www.welt.de/gesundheit/psychologie/article3198053/Blutgruppen-Hysterie-er\ obert-Japan.html 3 years ago, excerpt: "Blood group hysteria conquered Japan A question currently dominated Japan at every opportunity: "To which group do you belong," it says at parties, in the interview, or flirting or department stores. The answer you should think twice because this is about nothing less than the personality. The Prime Minister is committed to A. By Mari Yamaguchi The curiosity is solely the blood type. Because it can be - as the belief of many Japanese - most intimate details to derive personality. Last year four of the ten best-selling books revealed to its readers, which reveals the blood type of a person about his character. Total sales of the series - each with a band for the groups A, B, AB and 0 - over five million copies. Taku Kabeya, managing director of publisher Bungeisha, leads to the success of the series due to the fact that the readers confirm their self-image when they recognize certain characteristics of themselves or others in reading. Accordingly, people with blood group A sensitive perfectionists but somewhat anxious. Type B tends to the cheerful nature, but at the same eccentric and egotistical. Flows the blood of group 0 through the veins of a man, this is curious, generous but stubborn. And AB-carriers are mysterious and unpredictable. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125481 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:19 am Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 3. glenjohnann Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina and Sarah This is all very helpful - and the understanding described is essential. Thanks for posting it. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > Thanks for sharing these transcripts > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > > > Kh Santi: How can we exert effort for satipatthaana? > > > > Kh S: When there are no conditions for satipatthaana it does not > > arise. More understanding is the condition for it. If it does not > > arise there is not yet enough understanding. > > > > Kh Santi: If for someone satipatthana often arises he has a lot of > > effort or energy, and if it does not often arise, there is not much > > effort for that person. > > > > Kh S: Does satipatthana arise because it is accumulated as > > sankhaarakkhandha( the khandha of formations, including sati, > > pa~n~naa and all wholesome qualities) or does it arise because of a > > self? At this moment of listening there are sati and pa~n~naa, and > > are these sankhaarakkhandha? > .... > S: Even if someone has studied a lot of Abhidhamma and Pali, if there's still the idea of self making an effort or 'doing' something, it's not the understanding that the Buddha taught. > > I heard K. Sujin talking about how sacca ~naana (knowledge of the truth) is the understanding which is confident about the reality right now as the object of understanding only. Nothing else can be the object of understanding.....and only that reality which appears. > > Metta > > Sarah > ==== > Reply | Messages in this Topic (4) #125482 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:25 am Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:1.Is the 'whole' which you say is anicca, dukkha and anatta, a >paramattha dhamma or a concept? > >============================= > > It is experiential truth. .... S: So did the Buddha teach us that there are realities (paramattha dhamma) - "The All", concepts (pannatti) thought about and then "experiential truth"? What is the Pali for this third category? >Cup does exist. ... S: We agree there are 6 doorways, right? Which doorway is cup experienced? ... > > >2.Are the namas and rupas, which you suggest are parts of this >'whole', anicca, dukkha and anatta as well? > >============================ > > Yes. Whole and the parts are inconstant. Whole thing will eventually break apart. We can't base our happiness on them. ... S: So you are saying that the Buddha taught that there are namas and rupas (elements, khandhas) which are impermanent. Then there are the "wholes" that are impermanent. You are saying that these "wholes" are "experiential truths" - not paramattha dhammas or concepts, is that correct? Is the cup one of these "experiential truths"? Just trying to follow you. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125483 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:37 am Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, all, >S: So did the Buddha teach us that there are realities (paramattha >dhamma) - "The All", concepts (pannatti) thought about and then >"experiential truth"? What is the Pali for this third category? >=========================== As I remember, please correct me if I am wrong, Buddha has no where taught explicitly about "absolute" vs "conventional" truth. The first explicit teaching is in the commentaries, and different schools had different specific ideas what is absolute and what is conventional truth. Just because the Buddha has talked about people in one sutta and ayatanas in another, doesn't mean that any one is more "true" than the other. In fact, it seems that "conventional" truth is what we mostly, if always, "live in". Crosswalks, pedestrians, cars - do exist. Hunger, refridgerator, food, etc does exist. Fork has different function from a spoon. Etc. > >Cup does exist. > ... > S: We agree there are 6 doorways, right? Which doorway is cup >experienced? >================================== Through at least two. Seeing + touching + recognizing it being a cup. IMHO, we should not equate perception with what is. > ... > > > > >2.Are the namas and rupas, which you suggest are parts of this >'whole', anicca, dukkha and anatta as well? > > >============================ > > > > Yes. Whole and the parts are inconstant. Whole thing will eventually break apart. We can't base our happiness on them. > ... > S: So you are saying that the Buddha taught that there are namas and rupas (elements, khandhas) which are impermanent. Then there are the "wholes" that are impermanent. > > You are saying that these "wholes" are "experiential truths" - not paramattha dhammas or concepts, is that correct? Is the cup one of these "experiential truths"? > > Just trying to follow you. > > Metta > > Sarah > > ===== Yes, cup is experiential truth. What I believe is wrong is to ascribe permanence, ultimate happiness and thing-in-itself (atta) to a cup. With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125484 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in speculative philosophy upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Sarah (and Alex) - In a message dated 7/10/2012 1:26:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: So you are saying that the Buddha taught that there are namas and rupas (elements, khandhas) which are impermanent. Then there are the "wholes" that are impermanent. You are saying that these "wholes" are "experiential truths" - not paramattha dhammas or concepts, is that correct? Is the cup one of these "experiential truths"? ============================= Sarah, in MN 41 the Buddha taught the following: "It's by reason of this Dhamma conduct & harmonious conduct that some beings here, with the break-up of the body, after death, re-appear in the good destinations, in the heavenly world." What is this body that breaks up? It is not a single rupa, is it? And if it breaks up, is it not, thus, impermanent? As for what door the complex called a body is known through, of course it is through the mind door and no other. And its impermanence is, of course, derived from the arising and ceasing of its elements. But still, the Buddha himself spoke of the body, and he spoke of it breaking up. Fictions and concepts don't break up, do they? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125485 From: "azita" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:28 am Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 3. gazita2002 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hallo Ann, Sarah, Nina, Agree with you here, Ann, Important info to be heard and contemplated often and thanks Sarah, for posting. How are you Ann? hope all is well. All good here. HOpe to be back in Thailand in Sept. Cant believe it - have been here in Oz for nearly one year! Daughters and grandkids are fine, weather's great. This must be dukkha :) Patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > > Dear Nina and Sarah > > This is all very helpful - and the understanding described is essential. Thanks for posting it. > > Ann > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > Dear Nina, > > > > Thanks for sharing these transcripts > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > Kh Santi: How can we exert effort for satipatthaana? > > > > > > Kh S: When there are no conditions for satipatthaana it does not > > > arise. More understanding is the condition for it. If it does not > > > arise there is not yet enough understanding. > > > > > > Kh Santi: If for someone satipatthana often arises he has a lot of > > > effort or energy, and if it does not often arise, there is not much > > > effort for that person. > > > > > > Kh S: Does satipatthana arise because it is accumulated as > > > sankhaarakkhandha( the khandha of formations, including sati, > > > pa~n~naa and all wholesome qualities) or does it arise because of a > > > self? At this moment of listening there are sati and pa~n~naa, and > > > are these sankhaarakkhandha? > > .... > > S: Even if someone has studied a lot of Abhidhamma and Pali, if there's still the idea of self making an effort or 'doing' something, it's not the understanding that the Buddha taught. > > > > I heard K. Sujin talking about how sacca ~naana (knowledge of the truth) is the understanding which is confident about the reality right now as the object of understanding only. Nothing else can be the object of understanding.....and only that reality which appears. > > > > Metta > > > > Sarah > > ==== > > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (4) #125486 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:54 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: I think the issue you raise here is something of a red herring :-)). > > > > > > Whether or not there is a 'relation' between dhammas and conventional concepts/objects is beside the point. > > > > RE: Whether or not it is beside the point, it seems to be the point of contention between folks as serious about the Dhamma as Ken H. & Rob K. So maybe it is worth addressing so as to settle the disagreement? > > =============== > > J: Yes, well worth addressing. ... > - The Buddha pointed out the importance of the development of understanding of dhammas as being the development of the path; > - that development does not involve identifying a specific relationship between dhammas and concepts (i.e., identifying in exactly what way (if any) dhammas are related to concepts); > - the Buddha in his teaching did not assert a relationship between dhammas and concepts of the kind you are suggesting (i.e., that concepts point to dhammas). > > In brief, the path can be developed to the full without dwelling on this point. I don't think it's clear that this is the case. The Buddha spoke about many conventional actions and objects and included them as part of the path in his speech. He did not make the statement that he only spoke of such things for convenience and that only understanding dhammas constituted the path. It is a point of interpretation to assert this, not a point of fact. When the Buddha says that one should not drink alcohol because it clouds the mind, some would say that this is just a signpost for mental factors; others would say that it is a literal prohibition; and others would say that both the mental state and the action are important [that is what I would say.] It is not settled which of these three views most accurately reflect the Buddha's teaching, but it is clear that the third alternative is the one the Buddha followed in his way of addressing such issues. Since such a view does not contradict commentary, and does make most sense of the Buddha's own words, it is the alternative that I choose to adopt. > > =============== > > RE: In any case, I don't think it's beside the point at all, unless it is already settled that nothing we do in life means anything. Only direct understanding matters, and I don't think the Buddha ever said anything to suggest that pure understanding, removed from all life circumstances, was the only thing that mattered. > > =============== > > J: I agree that it is only direct understanding that matters. The way that is written was mistaken on my part. While I think that direct understanding is the ultimate fruit of the path, and while I think that enlightenment is a matter of the transformation of consciousness, I don't agree that the path is only constituted of understanding, but of all the factors that the Buddha spoke of. > All understanding arises in the context of life in samsara; there is no such thing as understanding that is 'removed from all life circumstances' (not sure what you have in mind by this expression). What I have in mind is considering intellectual understandings removed from conventional issues that occur in everyday life, such as one's work, behavior, relationships, and other life circumstances. > > =============== > > RE: So it comes down to what is really an essential Dhamma argument, not beside the point at all, whether there is indeed an eightfold path, which includes other factors other than right understanding, or a one-fold path, which includes only right understanding, and in which all the other 7 factors are nothing but subsidiary aspects of right understanding. > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, the path is eightfold in the sense that each moment of path-consciousness is accompanied by eight important mental factors, each performing its own function. This interpretation, while perhaps valid for the mental factors that arise in path-consciousness, is not consistent as a total definition of the path with all the things the Buddha spoke about, and pronounced to be of importance to development. > > =============== > > RE: Buddha never suggested that, but I think that is what it comes down to when one thinks that "understanding dhammas" stands alone without any other necessary supports, such as actual right action or right livelihood. If one thinks that right action - even with the word action in it - comes down to nothing but an arising dhamma that has no actual action in it, and that is true for all the factors, then there really is only right understanding, only mental factors, and then the Buddha's explicit exposition of the Dhamma is reduced to something quite one-dimensional compared to the diverse and balanced teaching that the Buddha enunciated during the course of his 40 years of teaching. > > =============== > > J: Well that is the point of contention (as you say above :-)), namely whether the factors of the NEP are co-arising mental factors that accompany each moment of path consciousness, or whether they are a collection of things (including mental factors and things to do) having no apparent common denominator. The common denominator is the development of kusala and kusala qualities, such as calm, concentration, understanding, equanimity, kindness, clear-headedness, etc. In conventional life one cannot be clear-headed and mindful while drunk. Drunkenness is a physical factor that affects mental factors. Meditation may be seen as a "worldly" activity that affects mental factors. It is this sort of combination of factors both purely mental and conventional that is more multi-dimensional than only thinking about arising mental factors as though there are no other correspondences or influences on the development of kusala mental states and understanding. > (It may well be that the former seems 'one-dimensional' and the latter a 'diverse and balanced teaching' to you, but that is a purely subjective assessment :-)). Well I'm making the argument based on what is contained in it. To say it is "a subjective assessment" neither dismisses nor asserts the possible verity of such an argument. The question is whether the suttas and the preponderance of commentarial interpretations suggests that such an argument is right or wrong. I still have never seen a statement quoted from commentary that suggested that we should ignore conventional reality in favor of pure mental factors. In fact, the Visudhimagga and other major commentaries seem to do just the opposite, so the view that such references are not meant to actually refer to conventional realities and their relationship to dhammas is itself an interpretation not directly supported by the writings themselves. I think the and/and argument makes much more sense of the teachings in sutta and commentary that I have seen [admittedly very incomplete] than the either/or approach to dhammas vs. conventional realities. When Rob K. asserts that there is a relationship between kusala and abstention from 'conventional murder' that makes more sense to me than Scott's view that murder is seen to not exist when one is enlightened and therefore doesn't carry any kamma, since there are no beings. To me the latter seems an extreme interpretation of dhamma theory, while the former seems balanced and takes into account both everyday reality and absolute reality at one stroke. > The only way to resolve this issue is to look at the teachings as a whole, and to do so (I'd suggest) in the context of the commentarial texts. I will be happy to see and discuss your quotes that you would put forth as clarifying the non-importance of conventional forms such as conventional livelihood, drinking, sexual activity, relationship to the body, killing and food, conventional right speech and action and meditation as a means of developing concentration and mindfulness. I have yet to see a single commentarial statement, let alone the "teachings as a whole" declare that we should not be concerned with such conventional behaviors and activities and only be concerned with pure understanding of dhammas. If such a view is justified by the teachings, the teachings have to say this somewhere. I will have to take a break for now, but will be back... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125487 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:07 pm Subject: rebirth anagami nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, I listened to audio K.K. 2011, March: did I get this right? Anagamis are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma planes? They have no conditions for clinging to sense objects and even when they did not develop jhaana I understand that they are not reborn in sensuous planes, we discussed this before. Are only those who developed jhaana reborn in Suddhaavaasa? Nina. Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125488 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:09 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 11. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, The monk who has left his home for the “homeless life” has many opportunities to cultivate impartiality. Laypeople who are bound by their family life are apt to have preference for their own relatives. The monk is not bound by such ties and he has the opportunity to devote himself entirely to the task of helping without any partiality all people who are ready to listen to the Dhamma. The monk should not expect any reward for his teaching of Dhamma. Since he is not allowed to ask for anything he truly leads a life of contentment with little. Also laypeople who practise the “Middle Way”, which is the eightfold Path, can cultivate tatramajjhattatå, evenmindedness. Partiality is unwholesome. Having preference for certain people or expecting a reward from anyone are forms of attachment. Impartiality is wholesome. Tatramajjhattatå arises with each wholesome citta. We can find out for ourselves that the cultivation of the eightfold Path makes us less apt to partiality. When we learn to see ourselves and others as only nåma and rúpa we shall have less preference for such or such person. We shall learn not to expect praise, honour or other kinds of rewards from others. We should remember that the Buddha was unruffled by praise or blame. He was even-minded, untroubled, mindful and clearly conscious. The Buddha fulfilled the perfections of dåna (generosity), síla (morality), nekkhamma (renunciation), paññå (wisdom), viriya (energy), khanti (patience), sacca (truthfulness), adiììhåna (determination), mettå (loving kindness) and upekkhå (equanimity. Thus, he could become the Sammåsambuddha: “He is the Exalted One, arahant, fully enlightened, perfected in knowledge and way of life, one well-gone, a knower of the worlds, none higher, a tamer of tamable men, a teacher, the awake among devas and men, the Exalted One!” (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Sixes, Ch I, § 10, Mahånåma.) *********** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125489 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, Op 10-jul-2012, om 18:21 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > I can imagine that but it sounds a bit strange to learn, that has > someting to do with seeing the color of blood in heart's cavity . ------ N: In the context of Ayurveda, prevalent in India, it is not so strange. When one is sick it means that there is disturbance of the elements. The state of the bile is also important. We have read texts about this. I have no problems with such texts. Here is an old message, a quote from Atth and a message by Sarah: N: (quote from Atthasalini).....Although the world perceives the eye as white, > > as (of a certain) bigness, extension, width, they do not know the > > real sentient eye, but only the physical basis thereof. That lump of > > flesh situated in the cavity of the eye is bound to the brain by > > sinewy threads. Therein are white, black, red, extension, cohesion, > > heat and mobility. The eye is white from the abundance of phlegm, > > black from that of bile, red from that of blood, rigid from the > > element of extension, fluid from that of cohesion, hot from that of > > heat, and oscillating from that of mobility. Such is the compound > > organ of the eye.... ... Questioner: > This latter description is ancient biology. By today's standards > it is > primitive and flawed - it is quite primitive especially as regards such > > things as the phlegm & bile. .... S: This is rather a minor problem and you may well be right in what you say here. I'd just like to point out that even when assuming the conventional descriptions are 'primitive and flawed', such as with reference to the phlegm and bile, we have to consider that we may not understand what is intended and that the translation may not be adequate for this either: For example, many of these ideas related to ayurvedic medicine. I read somehwere that the first eye surgeries were carried out around the time of the Buddha by ayurvedic opthamologists using well-founded principles for cataract removal and so on. Just a couple of notes to consider here: ttp://www.itmonline.org/ayurreview/ayur5.htm "Pitta, kapha, and vata (vayu) have been translated as bile, phlegm, and wind, respectively, based on translations that arose out of the ancient Greek system. These terms are poor representatives of the underlying meaning, however." "The doshas-vayu, pitta, and kapha-constitute the tripod on which Ayurveda stands. To understand their theory perfectly and correctly is by itself a long and arduous study. The subject being a very complicated one, it cannot be explained within a few pages. Also, it has been defined by different experts in different ways, but the basic principles to which they all point to are the same." ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125490 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina , no doubt about the importance of blood in respect to medicine , diagnosis and treatment and much of the ancient wisdom , particular from the East , has shown new ways for the West. Now even Blood Type Science developed which I assume is more serious than the application of the 4 blood types for personality assessment. ( as O- type , I am described by 'curious, generous but stubborn..' well ..;-) Likewise 'The Hippocratic school held that four humors: blood, black bile, yellow bile and phlegm consists the basis for the four types of temperaments' , oversimplifies the complexity of character. Another issue is the judgements of ancient commentaries like the Atthasalini. The remark of the questioner you quoted sounds to me superficially . That more details are known nowadays and so another language is used , doesn't make the information worthless. However "seeing the color of blood in heart's cavity " (even without surgical intervention ) and penetrate by that a person's mind , is quite difficult to believe and I suppose the possibility that a former simile was taken literally after some time.. with Metta Dieter. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125491 From: Vince Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:11 am Subject: Fear cerovzt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email "The thought would occur to me: ‘Is this that fear & terror coming?’ Then the thought occurred to me: ‘Why do I just keep waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & terror in whatever state they come?’ So when fear & terror came while I was walking back & forth, I would not stand or sit or lie down. I would keep walking back & forth until I had subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was standing, I would not walk or sit or lie down. I would keep standing until I had subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was sitting, I would not lie down or stand up or walk. I would keep sitting until I had subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was lying down, I would not sit up or stand or walk. I would keep lying down until I had subdued that fear & terror." - Bhaya-bherava Sutta Vince. Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125492 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:57 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 1. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Chapter 5. The Buddha’s Enlightenment. In the “Discourse on Wonderful and Marvellous Qualities” (Middle Length Sayings III, no. 123) we read that the Buddha asked Ananda to deliver to the monks a discourse on the wonderful and marvellous qualities of the Tathaagata. Ånanda said that the Bodhisatta arose in the Tusita heaven mindful and clearly conscious. This was a wonder, a marvellous quality of the Lord’s. He remained in the Tusita heaven mindful and clearly conscious. Ananda said that this too was a wonder, a marvellous quality of the Lord’s. The Bodhisatta had accumulated mindfulness and wisdom in countless lives and his next life would be his last one in the course of which he would attain Buddhahood. He stayed in the Tusita heaven for as long as his lifespan lasted. This was another wonderful and marvellous quality. According to the commentary to the “Middle Length Sayings”, the “Papañcasúdani”, this was due to the fact that he had fulfilled all the perfections; there was no gift he had not given, no síla he had not observed. The Bodhisatta had fulfilled all the perfections and now the time had come for his last birth as Prince Siddhatta Gotama, son of Sudodhana, King of the Sakyans, and Queen Maya. He was born 623 B.C. in the Lumbini Gardens, in what is today the country of Nepal. In Lumbini we saw the pillar King Asoka had erected 249 B.C. when he paid homage at the place where the Buddha was born. There is an inscription on the pillar saying that King Asoka, after he had been anointed for twenty years, came himself and worshipped this spot, because the Buddha Sakyamuni was born here. The inscription also says that he made the village of Lumbini free of taxes and that it had to pay only an eighth share of the produce. We paid respect near the Asoka pillar with candles, incense and chanting, and also through considering and investigating nåma and rúpa. Satipatthåna is the highest respect we can pay to him who fulfilled all the perfections in order to teach devas and men satipatthåna. The pavement was extremely hot for our bare feet, but are there not nåma and rúpa that can be known when they appear? Also when we have aversion there are nåma and rúpa and paññå can begin to know their characteristics. At the moment of mindfulness there is no aversion and in this way one starts to attach less importance to the fact whether experiences are pleasant or unpleasant. We have accumulated attachment and aversion and when there are conditions they arise, but through right understanding we shall learn to see them as they are: only conditioned realities. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125493 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:58 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > S: I don't know that we can even talk about a "set of five khandhas" arising and > falling away, followed by "a new set". Each reality, each khandha arises and > falls away, different from each other....... .... > KH: Thanks, I can never remember which rupas arise with which namas – even though you and others have explained it to me. > > So, when seeing consciousness falls away to be replaced by viriya consciousness, and then by mind consciousness etc., the eye base rupa remains (even though it is no longer in use)? ..... S: In an eye-door process, there are up to 17 cittas. In order for the visible object to be experienced, it must have already arisen prior to the adverting consciousness, seeing and subsequent cittas arising. It lasts for the entire process and then falls away before the following bhavanga cittas and mind-door process cittas arise. The eye-sense similarly must have arisen before the eye-door process cittas arise to experience visible object. Without the eye-sense - the door through which they all experience the object - there could be no experiencing of visible object. So, it remains the door, an ayatana for the whole process, even though it is only the base or support for the seeing consciousness itself. (A tricky area). Again it falls away at the end of the process, max 17 cittas. .... > > I was thinking it would fall away. I might have asked you this before, but sometimes a sense-door citta process lasts less than 17 citta moments, doesn't it? Is that because the sense rupa was not strong, or is it because the arresting citta (or the citta that began the citta process) was not strong? .... S: I think neither of those. If the rupa involved is too far gone by the time the arrest bhavanga citta arises, there cannot be a full sense door process for obvious reasons. This doesn't mean that the rupa was not strong, just that it was experienced too late. Sometimes also, there are no tadarammana cittas at the end of the process. .... > > My theory was that the rupa didn't last. And so I decided by analogy that the eye-base rupa would also not last 17 moments. ... S: The rupa still lasts 17x as long as the citta even if a full process of cittas doesn't experience it. ... > > Now that I think about it, I am at least partly right, aren't I? If I had better internet access I would check the DSG files, but we commonly say "rupa lasts for up to 17 citta moments," don't we? So why would we assume the sense base rupas last 17 moments? ... S: Maybe because they do!! I think it would be more accurate in the first statement to say that "rupa is experienced by up to 17 cittas" because rupas last for 17x as long as cittas. As Nina wrote in a recent message in the Vism series: "When a sense object impinges on a sensebase, a complete sense-door process of cittas can experience that object which has not fallen away. The cittas of a complete sense-door process and the preceding bhavanga-cittas are seventeen in number. Since ruupa lasts seventeen moments of citta it can be experienced by the cittas of a sense-door process. After it has just fallen away it is experienced through the mind-door." ... > KH: Having a great time thanks – even though not much sunshine. But it's the same wherever we go, just one citta lasting one citta moment. Plus whatever rupas there might be! :-) ... S: Yes, that's the important point - understanding that wherever we go, there is just one citta experiencing one object - just the experiencing of visible object, sound or thinking wherever we go. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125494 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -panna 1. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Buddh. Dict. > pa~n~naa > .aunderstanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight.a, comprises a very wide field. The specific Buddhist knowledge or wisdom, however, as part of the Noble Eightfold Path (magga, q.v.) to deliverance, is insight (vipassanaa, q.v.), i.e. that intuitive knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and the realization of Nibbaana (s. ariyapuggala), and which consists in the penetration of the impermanency (anicca, q.v.), misery (dukkha, s. sacca) and impersonality (anattaa) of all forms of existence. Further details, s. under tilakkhana. > > D: why ' however'? ..it is 'wisdom endowed with knowledge or insight (PTS) . > I think as a matter of speech , we use ' panna ' replacing avijja , don't we ? ... S: "However", because not all kinds of pa~n~naa is pa~n~naa of the NEP. For example, pa~n~naa in the development of samatha, in the attainment of the mundane jhanas is not NEP pa~n~naa. When there is pa~n~naa, there is no avijja and it is panna which eradicates avaijja. This doesn't mean that there is panna whenever avijja doesn't arise or that all kinds of panna work towards eradicating avijja. Again, the development of samatha does not eradicate avijja. ... >s: When the Dhamma is described thus and panna is seen as "applied by the intellect of a given individual"....."wisdom or science, or knowledge, or philosophy".... no wonder it seems like dry bones! > > D: your objection is not yet clear to me .. > By :'.. to choose wisdom, or science, or knowledge, or philosophy. Only they must be understood in this connection as implying the body of learning as assimilated and applied by the intellect of a given individuaI' , she implies pariyatti and patipatti , doesn't she? It is not that I think she said it very well , but... ... S: What is described seems to have nothing to do with pariyatti or patipatti imo. For example, science or philosophy as applied by the intellect - what panna is there? Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125495 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:08 pm Subject: Re: Fear philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello Vince I suspect the commentary for this sutta will teach us that the fear and terror referred to are of that fear that arises at an advanced stage of vipassana-nana, and the subduing of it is through a deep level of insight. I can't imagine that there is a strong likelihood that fear will be subdued for us except by machinations of the mind rooted in lobha, the worlding knows no escape from unpleasant mental states except by seeking pleasant memtal states, I think that is a teaching. This is one reason I am turning to another religion for the mental candy I need for my fear. Dhamma is most valuable as a path of detachment, seeing akusala mind states without running away from them. But I think it is beyond us, there is a deeply accumulated tendency to latch on to comforting ideas, with lobha. So I am going full out, getting my mental pleasure from another spuritual tradition (well a new-agey hodge podge) most of the time. Maybe that is excessive, Nina writes convincingly about how understanding of daily life circumstances can subdue anxiety and other akysala mind states. Vut I see lobha everywhere, therefore unlikelihood of kusala subduing of fear as described in the sutta, for us. Just my opinion. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > > > "The thought would occur to me: `Is this that fear & terror coming?' Then the thought > occurred to me: `Why do I just keep waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & > terror in whatever state they come?' So when fear & terror came while I was walking back & > forth, I would not stand or sit or lie down. I would keep walking back & forth until I had > subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was standing, I would not walk > or sit or lie down. I would keep standing until I had subdued that fear & terror. When > fear & terror came while I was sitting, I would not lie down or stand up or walk. I would > keep sitting until I had subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was > lying down, I would not sit up or stand or walk. I would keep lying down until I had > subdued that fear & terror." > > - Bhaya-bherava Sutta > > > > > > Vince. > Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125496 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] losing sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lbidd2" wrote: > Ahhhh, the eternal debate. Okay, let's jump in: ... S: :-)) ... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > >L: When you are sad you are also standing or sitting or lying down, maybe > > > walking or running. > > ... > > S: What does this mean? In truth isn't it true that sadness is just a mental factor that arises and passes away? We say conventionally that we're in this or that posture, but isn't this just an idea we have? Really, just different elements arising and passing away. > > Larry: First, let's go to the "idea". Yes, all the words are ideas. They are actually little rupas, but let's not get into that. ... S: Since when were ideas "little rupas"? Let's go into that!! ... >I'm just using ordinary language in an attempt to be helpful. ... S: Appreciated. ... > >L: Whatever the posture, it isn't sad. Mary Carbone is > > > a group effort, not "just sad". This is the meaning of emptiness. > > ... > >S; Again, what does this mean, the "group effort". Do you mean that what we take for Mary or Larry are really just different mental states at such times? What do you understand by "emptiness"? > > L: Any experience is a group of many elements. In actuality no element defines the group. So the group is empty of a definition. In that sense the group is somewhat open. However, usually we bunch everything together and say this is it. "Sad" for example. ... S: Yes, usually just a big "bunch up"! Really, only various elements. I agree that what we usually take for "Sad" is just one of those "bunch ups"! ... > L: Good to see you Sarah. What do you understand by "emptiness"? ... S: Unless we are talking Sunnata/anatta of dhammas, it means nothing to me. For example, concepts and "bunch ups" are not anatta. However, each of those elements, such as seeing, visible object or aversion/sadness is anatta or "empty" of any self or core. How does that sound? Metta Sarah p.s so happy to chat to you again, Larry. ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125497 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:20 pm Subject: Re: Fear rjkjp1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil I think even intelllectual understanding of anatta precludes most , but not all fear? Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hello Vince > > I suspect the commentary for this sutta will teach us that the fear and terror referred to are of that fear that arises at an advanced stage of vipassana-nana, and the subduing of it is through a deep level of insight. I can't imagine that there is a strong likelihood that fear will be subdued for us except by machinations of the mind rooted in lobha, the worlding knows no escape from unpleasant mental states except by seeking pleasant memtal states, I think that is a teaching. This is one reason I am turning to another religion for the mental candy I need for my fear. Dhamma is most valuable as a path of detachment, seeing akusala mind states without running away from them. But I think it is beyond us, there is a deeply accumulated tendency to latch on to comforting ideas, with lobha. So I am going full out, getting my mental pleasure from another spuritual tradition (well a new-agey hodge podge) most of the time. Maybe that is excessive, Nina writes convincingly about how understanding of daily life circumstances can subdue anxiety and other akysala mind states. Vut I see lobha everywhere, therefore unlikelihood of kusala subduing of fear as described in the sutta, for us. Just my opinion. > > > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > > > > > > > "The thought would occur to me: `Is this that fear & terror coming?' Then the thought > > occurred to me: `Why do I just keep waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & > > terror in whatever state they come?' So when fear & terror came while I was walking back & > > forth, I would not stand or sit or lie down. I would keep walking back & forth until I had > > subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was standing, I would not walk > > or sit or lie down. I would keep standing until I had subdued that fear & terror. When > > fear & terror came while I was sitting, I would not lie down or stand up or walk. I would > > keep sitting until I had subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was > > lying down, I would not sit up or stand or walk. I would keep lying down until I had > > subdued that fear & terror." > > > > - Bhaya-bherava Sutta > > > > > > > > > > > > Vince. > > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125498 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:31 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125486) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > - The Buddha pointed out the importance of the development of understanding of dhammas as being the development of the path; > > - that development does not involve identifying a specific relationship between dhammas and concepts (i.e., identifying in exactly what way (if any) dhammas are related to concepts); > > - the Buddha in his teaching did not assert a relationship between dhammas and concepts of the kind you are suggesting (i.e., that concepts point to dhammas). > > > > In brief, the path can be developed to the full without dwelling on this point. > > RE: I don't think it's clear that this is the case. The Buddha spoke about many conventional actions and objects and included them as part of the path in his speech. He did not make the statement that he only spoke of such things for convenience and that only understanding dhammas constituted the path. It is a point of interpretation to assert this, not a point of fact. > > When the Buddha says that one should not drink alcohol because it clouds the mind, some would say that this is just a signpost for mental factors; others would say that it is a literal prohibition; and others would say that both the mental state and the action are important [that is what I would say.] It is not settled which of these three views most accurately reflect the Buddha's teaching, but it is clear that the third alternative is the one the Buddha followed in his way of addressing such issues. Since such a view does not contradict commentary, and does make most sense of the Buddha's own words, it is the alternative that I choose to adopt. > =============== J: There is no doubt but that the Buddha encouraged the development of kusala of all kinds, and not just the development of panna. But `kusala' is a (purely) mental quality; not a characteristic of a conventional activity. Conventional activities cannot have directly experiencable characteristics. "Mind is the forerunner of states [J: dhammas]. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves." Pali: Manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce padu.t.thena bhaasati vaa karoti vaa tato na.m dukkhamanveti cakka.m.ava vahato pada.m. Manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce pasannena bhaasati vaa karoti vaa tato na.m sukhamanveti chaayaa.ava anapaayinii. (Dhammapada, Yamaka vagga, v.1, 2) So when the Buddha speaks about conventionally kusala actions, he of course means that part of any action that is accompanied by kusala. Furthermore, when the development of kusala (other than insight) is encouraged, it is generally in the context of the development of insight, that is to say, not just for its own sake. > =============== > RE: While I think that direct understanding is the ultimate fruit of the path, and while I think that enlightenment is a matter of the transformation of consciousness, I don't agree that the path is only constituted of understanding, but of all the factors that the Buddha spoke of. > =============== J: The "ultimate fruit of the path" is surely enlightenment, with direct understanding (of dhammas) as its means. > =============== > > J: All understanding arises in the context of life in samsara; there is no such thing as understanding that is 'removed from all life circumstances' (not sure what you have in mind by this expression). > > RE: What I have in mind is considering intellectual understandings removed from conventional issues that occur in everyday life, such as one's work, behavior, relationships, and other life circumstances. > =============== J: When talking about understanding in the context of the development of the path, we are talking about the understanding *of dhammas*, right? There is no such thing as the understanding of dhammas that is removed from everyday life. And conversely there is no situation in everyday life in which it is impossible for understanding of dhammas to arise (if conditions are appropriate). Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125499 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, Op 11-jul-2012, om 18:18 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > However "seeing the color of blood in heart's cavity " (even > without surgical intervention ) and penetrate by that a person's > mind , is quite difficult > to believe and I suppose the possibility that a former simile was > taken literally after some time.. ------ N: Yes, the abhi~n~nas are quite difficult, like walking on water. Not for anybody. In the context of the Ayurveda I think that it is not so strange that the heartbase is somewhere in the blood of the heart. It has to be somewhere, not outside the body. BTW, taking a break next week. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125500 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:37 am Subject: Re: rebirth anagami chewsadhu Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, In my understanding, Anagamis are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma planes. Can Anangamis also reborn in aruupa planes? Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I listened to audio K.K. 2011, March: did I get this right? Anagamis > are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma > planes? They have no conditions for clinging to sense objects and > even when they did not develop jhaana I understand that they are not > reborn in sensuous planes, we discussed this before. Are only those > who developed jhaana reborn in Suddhaavaasa? > > Nina. > Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125501 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, N: Yes, the abhi~n~nas are quite difficult, like walking on water. Not for anybody.In the context of the Ayurveda I think that it is not so strange that the heartbase is somewhere in the blood of the heart. It has to be somewhere, not outside the body. BTW, taking a break next week. D: wishing already now a happy wandering ;-) with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125502 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:03 pm Subject: Re: Fear philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob K > I think even intelllectual understanding of anatta precludes most , but not all fear? > Robert Understanding anatta iintellectually certainly helps me drop regret (akusala) about bad and/or silly behaviour in a hurry. For example I can do silly things like quitting DSG and coming back a dozen times a year and understand why that happens, accept the uncontrollability of it. But I think the degree of understanding and accompanying saddha and other kusala factors will have to deepen significantly for mortal fear to be precluded for me. But that's just speculation. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125503 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fear nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Op 12-jul-2012, om 15:03 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > But I think the degree of understanding and accompanying saddha and > other kusala factors will have to deepen significantly for mortal > fear to be precluded for me. But that's just speculation. ------ N: But a beginning can be made by investigating seeing now, visible object now, these appear all the time. It does not help so much to think of the future: when will understanding and saddha deepen. And mortal fear: does it arise now? It is rather the dosa of the degree of dislike certain things or people. This is likely to be my dosa all the time. ----- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125504 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:44 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. Pt. 2. > > Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > > =============== > > J: Happy to take that statement of RobK's as a starting point. What do you see as its significance? It shows a relationship between kusala dhammas and conventional actions. Kusala mental states lead to less murder. Another example - if one has kusala mental states, one would be likely to engage in 'right speech' in the "conventional world." Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125505 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fear philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nins > ------ > N: But a beginning can be made by investigating seeing now, visible > object now, these appear all the time. Yes, I was going to write something sbout this. Listening to Ajahn Sujin a lot (I am not these days) brings this home again and again, I feel this is the arena/field in which understanding really develops, but there isn't much to write about it in a discusssion group, it's not as fascinatiing as deep topics like D.O, there is attention to it, or there isn't, there is listening to friends who remind us about it or there isn't, it's anatta. And when there is remembering and attention to hearing now, seeing now, no fear. But so easy for thinking with attachment to come in again and again, my understanding, feels good. But that's a reality too, anatta. Yes, Rob K is right, understanding anatta intellectually is very helpful. There is fear about my upcoming trip to Canada for various reasons but thinking about dhammas arising and falling away beyond the control of a self attenuates the fear. Phil Phil It does not help so much to > think of the future: when will understanding and saddha deepen. And > mortal fear: does it arise now? It is rather the dosa of the degree > of dislike certain things or people. This is likely to be my dosa all > the time. > ----- > Nina. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125506 From: han tun Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth anagami hantun1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Chew (Nina, Sarah), How are you? All my age-related illnesses are under control. But I am getting weak day by day. But I have to accept it; I cannot expect otherwise! Please allow to come in. Chew: In my understanding, Anagamis are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma planes. Can Anangamis also reborn in aruupa planes? Han: There is a very good description in CMA. I am sure you must have the CMA. For those, who do not have the CMA, I print below the text. CMA on page 361. # 40 The Non-Returner Anaagaamimagga.m bhaavetvaa kaamaraagavyaapaadaana.m anavasesappahaanena anaagaamii naama hoti, anaagantaa itihatta.m. Having developed the path of non-returning, by totally abandoning sensual lust and ill will, one becomes a non-returner, one who does not return to this (sensuous) state. Guide to # 40 A non-returner has fully eradicated sensual lust and ill will, the fetters that bind to the sensuous world. He has also eradicated the taint of sensual desire and the unwholesome cetasikas, hatred and worry, as well as greed taking a sensuous object. Thus he will be spontaneously reborn in a fine-material realm and there attain final Nibbaana. It should be noted that while only non-returners are reborn in the Pure Abodes, there is no fixed determination that all non-returners are reborn there. The texts mention five types of non-returner: (1) One who, having been reborn spontaneously in a higher world, generates the final path before he has reached the midpoint of the life-span (antaraa-parinibbaayii). (2) One who generates the final path after passing the midpoint of the life-span, even when on the verge of death (upahacca-parinibbaayii). (3) One who attains the final path without exertion (asankhaara-parinibbaayii). (4) One who attains the final path with exertion (sasankhaara-parinibbaayii). (5) One who passes from one higher realm to another until he reaches the Akani.t.tha realm, the Highest Pure Abode, and there attains the final path (uddha.msoto akani.t.thagamii). with metta and respect, Han --- On Thu, 7/12/12, Sadhu Chew wrote: From: Sadhu Chew Subject: [dsg] Re: rebirth anagami To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 12, 2012, 10:37 PM Dear Nina, In my understanding, Anagamis are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma planes. Can Anangamis also reborn in aruupa planes? Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I listened to audio K.K. 2011, March: did I get this right? Anagamis > are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma > planes? They have no conditions for clinging to sense objects and > even when they did not develop jhaana I understand that they are not > reborn in sensuous planes, we discussed this before. Are only those > who developed jhaana reborn in Suddhaavaasa? > > Nina. > Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125507 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:47 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. Pt. 3. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: >...No action can be 'right' unless it is action that's accompanied by kusala consciousness; so it's down to mental factors again. How about action + kusala mental factors? You can't have kusala mental factors + murder, so there is a contribution of the action as well. I think your point is well taken when it comes to actions that would otherwise be kusala, but which are "poisoned" by akusala; ie, you give to charity in order to feel good about yourself instead of it being accompanied by actual metta. So mental factors "make or break" the action, but still don't substitute for it. If you have lovely mental factors but watch someone being murdered without helping them, that is not kusala, even if the mental factors are great. So I would just reiterate, it is not one or the other, mental or behavioral, but both. Both have to be kusala. Not only can a negative mental factor "spoil the broth," but so can the wrong action. > 'Right action' is not a matter of the 'right' outward conduct/action. In fact it partially is - murder can never be kusala, no matter what. It is a 'wrong action' no matter what the mental factors accompanying it. > > =============== > > RE: The Buddha pointed out that there are things that are real in the ultimate sense and that are not known as they truly are, and he declared that only by the development of understanding of these things can there be enlightenment and escape from samsara. > > > > He also said that without the other aspects of the path, such as right action, such understanding could not properly develop. The path does not emanate from purely intellectual activity. > > =============== > > J: This is the point of contention I mention above :-)) > > > =============== > > > J: The development of that understanding does not involve identifying any particular relationship between dhammas and conventional objects and, as far as I'm aware, the Buddha never asserted such a relationship as part of the development of the path. > > > > RE: Well he talked about life, action, meditation and dictates of right living continuously, both for monks and lay people. What does all that add up to? > > =============== > > J: I would answer that (rhetorical) question of yours by one of my own: What did the Buddha (or what do the texts) *say* it all adds up to? :-)) I'd say they say that it adds up to a correct combination of factors. In fact, both the Buddha and the commentaries speak of the three levels of kamma patha - mental, speech and physical. I think we ignore such itemization at our peril, and I take seriously the idea that all three levels have to line up or you don't have true kusala. If mental factors do not translate into right speech and right action, the kusala is poisoned, and you get akusala kamma patha. As I'm sure you would agree, the arahant not only has perfected mental factors, but also demonstrates perfectly expressed kusala speech and action. It's not one without the other, though there are those here who choose to emphasize kusala mental factors to the exclusion of all else. I just don't think that is justified by anything I've seen in the actual texts. Do you have a text - and this is not meant rhetorically - that demonstrates directly that I am wrong about this? I would be very anxious to see it. > > =============== > > > J: I would say he was at pains to assert the importance of the development of understanding of dhammas. > > > > RE: Well he was also at pains to talk about all the conditions necessary to develop this, and that included how one lives in the conventional world. > > =============== > > J: This is the same point of contention. I am sure we can find many, many quotes where the Buddha talks about how to live and act in the conventional world, for instance large portions of the vinaya, as well as many many suttas, and the commentaries discuss correct behavior and speech as well, not just dhammas. Can you likewise show quotes that demonstrate that the only thing of importance is the development of the understanding of dhammas in the paramatha sense, and not in the sense of how one lives and acts in the world? > > =============== > > > J: I'm wondering what is the basis for the notion that "real activities exist in the world". Is this from the texts, or is it your personal experience? > > > > RE: It is from the Buddha's own mentioning of such things in very conventional contexts. While dhammas are always implicated, that doesn't mean that the actions and responses in the world are not meaningful. > > =============== > > J: To my understanding, the 'meaningfulness' of actions and responses is a factor of the mental factors by which they are accompanied. You may think that, but that is not what The Buddha or even the commentaries say in many instances. They speak of the mental factors AND the behavioral world that results from or accompanies such mental factors as well. They do not leave these other levels out of the discussion, and neither should we. In fact, I would say that the way we act conventionally does indeed reflect the mental factors that are influencing our behavior. It would seem strange if we supposed that these two levels of reality were disparate - that for instance we could be experiencing many moments of metta while cursing and screaming and killing people in the "conventional" world. Obviously that does not take place, and for good reason - they just don't go together. > > =============== > > > J: You seem to be positing a 2-tier reality: (a) dhammas and (b) conventional objects/activities. > > > > RE: The Buddha said may times that ultimate reality and conventional reality were both true in their own realms, and that they did not contradict each other. > > > > "The Awakened One, the best of teachers, spoke of two truths, conventional and higher; no third is ascertained; a conventional statement is true because of convention and a higher statement is true as disclosing the true characteristics of events." > > - Khathāvatthu Aṭṭha kathǎ > > =============== > > J: But this passage does not state (or imply) the existence of a so-called 'conventional reality'. It says only that "a conventional statement is true because of convention". Why say it is true, if one is not acknowledging that convention does establish a sense of what is real in daily living? Why not say the opposite, that "though convention establishes its own type of truth, it is not in fact true." > > =============== > > > >RE: And Nina has said as much most recently. > > > > Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > > =============== > > J: Happy to take that statement of RobK's as a starting point. What do you see as its significance? I have answered this in my 'pt. 2' response, but you have not said anything about Nina's statement. She said that "there is no contradiction between conventional reality and paramatha dhammas," though I may have mistaken a word or two. And I would reverse the statement to say that in fact "conventional reality follows paramatha dhammas," and is the imperfect reflection of paramatha dhammas that worldlings experience. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125508 From: "azita" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:39 pm Subject: Re: Fear gazita2002 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hallo Phil, I guess you realise that the "mental candy" is probably jst lobha? However, I can sort of understand what yr doin - sort of. Yesterday was a dog of a day for me so I jst sat with it until there was no more light in the sky {and BTW it was a stunning sunset} and then watched some TV. We get hooked on having good feeling - who doesnt - so when theres unpleasant feeling 'we' dont like it. Now to cheer you even further, there is probably aeons of this to come, golly gosh what to do - develop right understanding now of whatever arises. Easy eh!!:( Patience, courage and good cheer, azita > I suspect the commentary for this sutta will teach us that the fear and terror referred to are of that fear that arises at an advanced stage of vipassana-nana, and the subduing of it is through a deep level of insight. I can't imagine that there is a strong likelihood that fear will be subdued for us except by machinations of the mind rooted in lobha, the worlding knows no escape from unpleasant mental states except by seeking pleasant memtal states, I think that is a teaching. This is one reason I am turning to another religion for the mental candy I need for my fear. Dhamma is most valuable as a path of detachment, seeing akusala mind states without running away from them. But I think it is beyond us, there is a deeply accumulated tendency to latch on to comforting ideas, with lobha. So I am going full out, getting my mental pleasure from another spuritual tradition (well a new-agey hodge podge) most of the time. Maybe that is excessive, Nina writes convincingly about how understanding of daily life circumstances can subdue anxiety and other akysala mind states. Vut I see lobha everywhere, therefore unlikelihood of kusala subduing of fear as described in the sutta, for us. Just my opinion. > > > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > > > > > > > "The thought would occur to me: `Is this that fear & terror coming?' Then the thought > > occurred to me: `Why do I just keep waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & > > terror in whatever state they come?' So when fear & terror came while I was walking back & > > forth, I would not stand or sit or lie down. I would keep walking back & forth until I had > > subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was standing, I would not walk > > or sit or lie down. I would keep standing until I had subdued that fear & terror. When > > fear & terror came while I was sitting, I would not lie down or stand up or walk. I would > > keep sitting until I had subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was > > lying down, I would not sit up or stand or walk. I would keep lying down until I had > > subdued that fear & terror." > > > > - Bhaya-bherava Sutta > > > > > > > > > > > > Vince. > > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125509 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fear nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Op 12-jul-2012, om 21:54 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Yes, Rob K is right, understanding anatta intellectually is very > helpful. There is fear about my upcoming trip to Canada for various > reasons but thinking about dhammas arising and falling away beyond > the control of a self attenuates the fear. ------ N: Yes, I know, especially concern about your mother. But when you think of others' wellbeing, no fear. That helps. Otherwise we are constantly concerned about 'my fear'. This morning I heard a good reminder by Kh Sujin: we are constantly after our dreams, not only at night but also during the day. Creating stories with lobha and dosa. Stories about other people or ourselves: how will this be, what will happen? Very human. I hope you have a fruitful trip, Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125510 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: rebirth anagami chewsadhu Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Han, I am very happy to hear from you. Thank you for your Dhamma sharing. It is always very helpful. I seldom review the CMA recently. I noticed that I have forgotten some of the information. It shows that my memory is not strong enough. But Nina and you are very good. It seems that both of you can remember very well most of the Dhamma that you have studied. Saadhu Saadhu Saadhu. May you be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Chew (Nina, Sarah), > > How are you? > All my age-related illnesses are under control. But I am getting weak day by day. > But I have to accept it; I cannot expect otherwise! > > Please allow to come in. > > Chew: In my understanding, Anagamis are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma planes. Can Anangamis also reborn in aruupa planes? > > Han: There is a very good description in CMA. > I am sure you must have the CMA. > For those, who do not have the CMA, I print below the text. > > CMA on page 361. > > # 40 The Non-Returner > > Anaagaamimagga.m bhaavetvaa kaamaraagavyaapaadaana.m anavasesappahaanena anaagaamii naama hoti, anaagantaa itihatta.m. > > Having developed the path of non-returning, by totally abandoning sensual lust and ill will, one becomes a non-returner, one who does not return to this (sensuous) state. > > Guide to # 40 > > A non-returner has fully eradicated sensual lust and ill will, the fetters that bind to the sensuous world. He has also eradicated the taint of sensual desire and the unwholesome cetasikas, hatred and worry, as well as greed taking a sensuous object. Thus he will be spontaneously reborn in a fine-material realm and there attain final Nibbaana. It should be noted that while only non-returners are reborn in the Pure Abodes, there is no fixed determination that all non-returners are reborn there. > > The texts mention five types of non-returner: > > (1) One who, having been reborn spontaneously in a higher world, generates the final path before he has reached the midpoint of the life-span (antaraa-parinibbaayii). > > (2) One who generates the final path after passing the midpoint of the life-span, even when on the verge of death (upahacca-parinibbaayii). > > (3) One who attains the final path without exertion (asankhaara-parinibbaayii). > > (4) One who attains the final path with exertion (sasankhaara-parinibbaayii). > > (5) One who passes from one higher realm to another until he reaches the Akani.t.tha realm, the Highest Pure Abode, and there attains the final path (uddha.msoto akani.t.thagamii). > > with metta and respect, > Han > > --- On Thu, 7/12/12, Sadhu Chew wrote: > From: Sadhu Chew > Subject: [dsg] Re: rebirth anagami > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 12, 2012, 10:37 PM > > Dear Nina, > > In my understanding, Anagamis are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma planes. Can Anangamis also reborn in aruupa planes? > > Chew > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah, > > I listened to audio K.K. 2011, March: did I get this right? Anagamis > > are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma > > planes? They have no conditions for clinging to sense objects and > > even when they did not develop jhaana I understand that they are not > > reborn in sensuous planes, we discussed this before. Are only those > > who developed jhaana reborn in Suddhaavaasa? > > > > Nina. > > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125511 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth anagami nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Han (Chew), Excellent, Han. A very good and detailed answer. I keep it in my files. What is CMA? I am glad you are well. Lodewijk also finds that he gets weaker and weaker, but we all do. The consequence of birth! Glad to hear from you, with appreciation, Nina. Op 13-jul-2012, om 1:17 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > CMA on page 361. > > # 40 The Non-Returner > > Anaagaamimagga.m bhaavetvaa kaamaraagavyaapaadaana.m > anavasesappahaanena anaagaamii naama hoti, anaagantaa itihatta.m. > > Having developed the path of non-returning, by totally abandoning > sensual lust and ill will, one becomes a non-returner, one who does > not return to this (sensuous) state. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125512 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:22 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch. 5, no 2. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, We read in the same sutta that the Bodhisatta’s mother gave birth while standing and that four devas received him and placed him in front of his mother. Two streams of water appeared from the sky, one cool and one warm, which were used for a water-libation for the Bodhisatta and his mother. Today we see a pool which reminds us of those heavenly streams of water used for the water-libation. There is also a temple, erected on top of an older structute, in honour of Queeen Måya. She died on the seventh day after the birth of the Bodhisatta, as is always the case for the Bodhisatta’s mother. We read in the same sutta: “Face to face with the Lord, revered sir, have I heard, face to face have I learnt: ’The moment, Ånanda, the Bodhisatta has come to birth, standing on even feet and facing north, he takes seven strides, and while a white sunshade is being held over him, he scans all the quarters and utters as with the voice of a bull: ’I am chief in the world, I am best in the world, I am eldest in the world. This is the last birth, there is not now again-becoming’. And inasmuch, revered sir,... I regard this too as a wonder, a marvellous quality of the Lord’s.” After Ånanda had enumerated all the wonderful and marvellous qualities, the Buddha added another wonderful and marvellous quality: “Wherefore do you, Ånanda, regard this too as a wonder, a marvellous quality of the Tathågata’s: As to this, Ånanda, the feelings that arise in the Tathågata are known; known they persist; known they go to destruction; perceptions are known; the thoughts that arise are known; known they persist; known they go to destruction. So do you, Ånanda, regard this too as a wonder, a marvellous quality of the Tathågata’s.” After having heard about all the marvels connected with the birth of the Bodhisatta one might be surprised about the last mentioned marvellous quality. Some people are surprised that the Buddha’s teachings deal with such common realities as seeing, hearing, thinking or feelings. They expect that there is mystery in Buddhism. The Buddha taught us the development of understanding in order to know the impermanence of feelings, perceptions, thoughts and all the other realities. This kind of understanding leads to the end of birth and all sorrow. Not mystery is the aim of the Buddha’s teachings, but discovery of the true nature of realities. Is this not the greatest “marvellous quality” of the Buddha? ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125513 From: han tun Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth anagami hantun1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina (and Chew), CMA is A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (The Abhidhamma Sangaha of Aacariya Anuruddha), originally translated by Mahaathera Naarada, and translation revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi. I always think of Lodewijk. We are almost in the same health condition. The enlarged prostate with the chance of becoming cancerous, the coronary insufficiency, the persistent anaemia, and the age-related macula degeneration both eyes which limits my computer work, do not worry me too much. What annoys me most is the general muscular weakness combined with dizziness on getting up or crossing the road. When I go out alone, I could fall down with dizziness any time. So I am now wearing a tag (like identification tags worn by military personnel) bearing my name and the phone numbers to contact. I like very much what you wrote: The consequence of birth! with best wishes, Han --- On Fri, 7/13/12, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Han (Chew), Excellent, Han. A very good and detailed answer. I keep it in my files. What is CMA? I am glad you are well. Lodewijk also finds that he gets weaker and weaker, but we all do. The consequence of birth! Glad to hear from you, with appreciation, Nina. Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125514 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fear philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina > ------ > N: Yes, I know, especially concern about your mother. But when you > think of others' wellbeing, no fear. Ph: *If* you think of others' wellbeing. I (like most people) actually only think about my own wellbeing. Even my mothers' violent dementia is more upsetting because of what it means for me than what it means for her. I don't know if that makes me a deviant, or completely normal, but that's the way it is. But then concern for the wellbeing of others will arise in an uncontrollable way, and there are many moments of helping others sincerely. THank you Nina, I will be checking out of this thread after one more post to Azita. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125515 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:43 pm Subject: Re: Fear philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Azita > I guess you realise that the "mental candy" is probably jst lobha? Absolutely, no doubt about it. It inolves tapping into the "ki" or "chi" or whatever you want to call that energy in the body. That "ki" is a reality, I have no doubt about that, but I don't know where it falls in amoung dhammas and I don't really care to find out. It feels good, and I am able to tap into it very effectively. Within a minute or so, or even less, I can sit wherever I am and feel it vibrant and glowing. Complete attachmen. Gurus and other teachers make something holy out of it, calling it a higher consciousness, or a cosmic energy or whatever, and I can have fun playing with those ideas. But basically I find it refreshing, energizing and much much better than alcohol, for example. Thta's why I was recommending "meditation" and yoga to Lukas, to help him fight drug addiction. (In addition to rehabilation.) When it comes to physical health and energy, meditation is undeniably great. (Except, I guess, for people who get into it too seriously.) The danger is that I start to believe some of the related concepts. Like many or most BUddhists there is an eternalist lurking in me (some of you out there, too, if you are honest) so it is playing with fire. But I am kind of dependent on it now. Continuing to study Abhidhamma, which represents an infinitely deeper truth, should hopefully prevent a completely submersion in that wrong view, but there is no way to know! > However, I can sort of understand what yr doin - sort of. Yesterday was a dog of a day for me so I jst sat with it until there was no more light in the sky {and BTW it was a stunning sunset} and then watched some TV. We get hooked on having good feeling - who doesnt - so when theres unpleasant feeling 'we' dont like it. Ph: Yes, when you're body is vibrant and glowing with "ki" energy, pretty addictive. > Now to cheer you even further, there is probably aeons of this to come, golly gosh what to do - develop right understanding now of whatever arises. Easy eh!!:( Ph: To be honest, I don't really believe that anyone here is up to facing the hardships of life, even mundane hardships such as physical fatigue and hard, hard, tiring days, without turning to ideas about Dhamma with attachment. Now, we always tell meditators (as we should) that practices rooted in lobha cannot lead to the development of kusala, but are we honest in asking ourselves if thinking about Dhamma with lobha can condition the development of kusala. Why should it? Just because the concept of the thinking is about Dhamma and dhammas? On the other hand, no doubt whatsoever in the kusala that is developed oh-so-gradually through moments of understanding seeing now, hearing now, thinking now, in other words satipatthana. We're lucky to listen to A. Sujin, we can be spared that lobha trap that practitioners of techniques are doomed to fall into, and to make the fall with the delusion that they are developing kusala. Just my obnoxious opinion, I might as well add that for good manners. > Patience, courage and good cheer, Everybody always loves this sign off of year, but patience, courage and good chheer *with detachment*, very rare surely... Thanks Azita, I'll be stepping away again. PHil Phil > > > I suspect the commentary for this sutta will teach us that the fear and terror referred to are of that fear that arises at an advanced stage of vipassana-nana, and the subduing of it is through a deep level of insight. I can't imagine that there is a strong likelihood that fear will be subdued for us except by machinations of the mind rooted in lobha, the worlding knows no escape from unpleasant mental states except by seeking pleasant memtal states, I think that is a teaching. This is one reason I am turning to another religion for the mental candy I need for my fear. Dhamma is most valuable as a path of detachment, seeing akusala mind states without running away from them. But I think it is beyond us, there is a deeply accumulated tendency to latch on to comforting ideas, with lobha. So I am going full out, getting my mental pleasure from another spuritual tradition (well a new-agey hodge podge) most of the time. Maybe that is excessive, Nina writes convincingly about how understanding of daily life circumstances can subdue anxiety and other akysala mind states. Vut I see lobha everywhere, therefore unlikelihood of kusala subduing of fear as described in the sutta, for us. Just my opinion. > > > > > > Phil <...> Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125516 From: "Alberto" Date: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:43 pm Subject: Re: Fear sprlrt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Vince & all, I've looked up the sutta (MN 4). The Buddha is replying to a local brahmin asking about the dangers of being seized by fear while doing (miccha) samadhi meditation in woods or wild places without (samma) samadhi. The Buddha says that any bhikkhu or samana going to such a place for such a purpose without being endowed with a pure bodily, verbal and mental conduct is bound to incur in such drawbacks, even to point of mental derangement. While a bhikkhu or samana endowed with those qualities (which include a pure mental conduct, i.e. siilaa isn't enough to develop samatha/samma samadhi, panna is also required, as is stated in one of the paragraph that follows) isn't carried away by those fears and subdues them. There is also an advanced vipassana stage which involves fear, udhayabbhaya nana, but this of course is kusala (i.e. unpleasant feeling don't arise then) and refers to the dukkha characteristic of all conditioned realities experienced at that stage of the path, giving a sense of urgency towards nibbana, the unconditioned reality. Alberto --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > > > "The thought would occur to me: `Is this that fear & terror coming?' Then the thought > occurred to me: `Why do I just keep waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & > terror in whatever state they come?' So when fear & terror came while I was walking back & > forth, I would not stand or sit or lie down. I would keep walking back & forth until I had > subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was standing, I would not walk > or sit or lie down. I would keep standing until I had subdued that fear & terror. When > fear & terror came while I was sitting, I would not lie down or stand up or walk. I would > keep sitting until I had subdued that fear & terror. When fear & terror came while I was > lying down, I would not sit up or stand or walk. I would keep lying down until I had > subdued that fear & terror." > > - Bhaya-bherava Sutta > > > > > > Vince. > Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125517 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:42 am Subject: Re: kenh3 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > =============== > > > J: Rob E, I'm just wondering if what you're referring to is the fact that each citta is related to one that preceded it and one that follows it by contiguity condition (among others). > > > > RE: Yes that is at the very least an important part of what I am referencing. > > > > > J: So are you perhaps saying that cittas that are so related can be regarded as being in a 'stream'. > > > > RE: Well of course they are creating the conditions for each next one, like dominoes, and thus have a very lawful and identifiable relationship from moment to moment. To say that this is not the case would be to ignore the obvious. > > =============== > > J: Not sure how appropriate the analogy of dominoes is. In the case of the cittas of a stream, the preceding citta must fall away completely before the succeeding one can arise (and that falling away is one of the conditioning factors). Do you think you can explain to me how this actually works? How does the 'complete falling away' of a citta condition the arising of a new one? Is there some sort of cetana lurking between cittas that causes a new citta to arise when the other has fallen away? I don't see how it is possible, but obviously I'm missing something. In ordinary terminology, something that has 'fallen away completely' leaving nothing behind cannot condition anything, and another citta cannot arise out of nothing. So it seems to me that the previous citta in some way is transmitting its 'info' to the next one while it is still here, but I have no idea how this takes place, either before or after the falling away. If you could explain this to me technically, I would really appreciate it. > It is not said that the preceding citta in any sense *causes* (nor "creates the conditions for") the arising of the succeeding one; there are other forces at play here, one of which is that there are certain fixed orders of cittas (Pali: niyama), for example, the order of cittas in a sense-door process. I can believe there are a number of laws and conditioning elements that cause the next citta to arise, but I have no conception of how the previous citta is able to relate to the next one when they don't exist at all at the same time, and there is nothing left in between to communicate between them. However, whatever the explanation is, the fact remains that an enormous amount of what existed in the previous citta is transmitted to the next one, via accumulations, latent tendencies, sanna, etc. Is that not correct? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125518 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina and Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > Op 10-jul-2012, om 8:50 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > > > Our overseas group consisted of four lay- people only - you, > > K.Sujin, K.Douangduen and myself - all sharing a room in the house. > > I learnt about getting up early in the day. K.Duangduen would wake > > at about 5.00, turn on the light and start doing her laundry and > > other chores. I thought this was so strange at the time, but I've > > been an early riser more-or-less ever since! > ------- > N: Yes, the memory is so vivid, like it was yesterday. I just told > Lodewijk about Kh Duangduen, so early, and her alarmclock. > When going around the stupa there was thunder and rain. Kh Sujin > could not care less that she got quite wet. > The white lotuses, I guess this was a gift of Kh Sujin. Ven. > Dhammadharo and other monks leading the procession, going around the > Bo tree. I like these memories very much, and I appreciate the story of Kh Sujin going around the stupa in the rain, not caring that she was getting wet - a lovely image. Thanks for sharing these nice stories and memories. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125519 From: Vince Date: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fear cerovzt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Alberto you wrote: > There is also an advanced vipassana stage which involves fear, udhayabbhaya nana, but > this of course is kusala (i.e. unpleasant feeling don't arise then) and refers to the > dukkha characteristic of all conditioned realities experienced at that stage of the > path, giving a sense of urgency towards nibbana, the unconditioned reality. thanks for the explanation. So I understand the Buddha recommendation is for that particular type of fear, and more directly addressed for the people cultivating jhanas (jhana-monks). Is this right? best, Vince, Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125520 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:25 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch. 5, no 3. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, In order to discover the truth the Bodhisatta left his life of sense pleasures for the “homeless life”. He took instructions first from Ålara the Kalama who could attain arúpa-jhåna (immaterial jhåna) as far as “the plane of nothing”. Since the Bodhisatta mastered what he taught, Ålara regarded him as his equal and set him on the same level as himself. The Bodhisatta found that Ålara’s teaching did not lead to enlightenment and he left Ålara. He then took instructions from Uddaka who could attain the highest stage of arúpa-jhåna which is “the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception”. The Bodhisatta mastered what Uddaka taught and was set on the same level as the teacher. The Bodhisatta found that also Uddaka’s teaching did not lead to “self-awakening”, to nibbåna. Therefore, he decided to search for the truth all by himself. He practised rigid austerities and became like a skeleton. Then he found out that such practices were not the way to enlightenment. He decided to take some solid food (“Greater Discourse to Saccaka”, Middle Length Sayings I, no 36). On the full-moon day of May (Visåkhå) he accepted boiled rice and sour milk from Sujåtå, near the river Nerañjarå. The five disciples who attended to him left when they saw him accepting solid food, because they thought that he had reverted to a life of abundance. We read in the “Commentator’s Introduction” to the “Therí-gåthå” that, after the Bodhisatta had eaten the food, he cast the golden dish upstream into the river, and, full of his resolution “Today will I become a Buddha!”, ascended at eventide the Bo-tree seat. He had made the resolution to become a Buddha aeons ago and he had renewed this resolution time and again during his countless lives as a Bodhisatta. That evening he walked full of his resolution to the Bodhi-tree, after he had spent the day in various attainments in the dense Great Forest on the bank of the river (Expositor I, 34). According to the commentary to the Jåtakas, when he sat down under the Bodhi-tree he resolved that he would not change his seat until he had attained enlightenment, speaking the following words: “Gladly would I have my skin and sinews and bones wither and my body’s flesh and blood dry up, if only I may hold out until I win what may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human striving.” Later on he spoke these words to the monks when he told them about the energy he had applied in order to attain enlightenment. He exhorted them to apply energy as well (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Twos, Ch 1, § 5). ******* Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125521 From: "Alberto" Date: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fear sprlrt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Vince, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > thanks for the explanation. So I understand the Buddha recommendation is for that > particular type of fear, and more directly addressed for the people cultivating > jhanas (jhana-monks). Is this right? [19. "I considered thus: 'Whenever recluses or brahmins devoid of wisdom, drivellers, resort to remote jungle-thicket resting places in the forest, then owing to the defect of their being devoid of wisdom and drivellers these good recluses and brahmins evoke unwholesome fear and dread."]... (MN-4 BB transl) Unwholesome is the standard translation for akusala. Visuddhimagga clarifies the meaning of the kusala 'fear' related to bhayatupatthaana nana (I've got the name wrong in my last post) vipassana stage: [32. But does the knowledge of appearance as terror [itself] fear or does not fear? It does not fear. For it is simply the mere judgment that past formation have ceased, present ones are ceasing, and future ones will cease.]...(Vis-ch.21 Nn transl). tirana-parinna, the second of the parinnas (direct understanding by investigation) is the paali for 'judgment'. Alberto Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125522 From: "Alberto" Date: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fear sprlrt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi again Vince, Also, the quote you posted follows a 'Before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta...' statement, which explains why he was still experiencing (akusala) fear. Alberto Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125523 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:52 am Subject: Diamond wedding anniversary sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina & Lodewijk, Our congratulations and very best wishes for your diamond wedding anniversary - 60 years of good and wise friendship and companionship together is a real blessing. "Even ornamented royal chariots wear out. So too the body reaches old age. But the Dhamma of the Good grows not old. Thus do the Good reveal it among the Good." Dhp 151, Narada transl) "Jiiranti ve raajarathaa sucittaa atho sariiram pi jara.m upeti Sata.m ca dhamma na jara.m upeti Santo have sabbhi pavedayanti." Metta and best wishes for continued wise and joyful companionship. Sarah & Jonothan ===================== [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125524 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:50 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > ...it's the cittas which arise at a particular location. In this realm, cittas all need a base - eye-base for seeing, ear-base for hearing or heart-base for most cittas. > > Let's talk about the touching of hardness now as we hit the computer key. The hardness rupa experienced, arises in a kalapa and falls away instantly. Clearly that hardness experienced at that instant is different from the hardness experienced when touching one's arm, even though they are both just hardness (pathavi) rupas. ... > It just means that in both instances the experiencing of a particular hardness is a result of kamma, experienced through the body-sense. At either moment, there is the coming together, the meeting of body consciousness (and accompanying mental factors), a tangible object and body-sense. These are different dhammas which arise and fall away by their own conditions. At that instant, a particular body consciousness experiences a particular tangible object at a particular body-sense or base rupa. (Body-sense rupas arise and fall away all over what we take for our body). There will never again be the same body consciousness arising, the same tangible object experienced or the same body-sense rupa as support. ... > ... > S: It's like when we talk about the body-sense location of the finger when touching the keyboard. It's just correct conventional language (sammuti or vohara sacca) to indicate that rupas are different, cittas arise at different locations, i.e at different rupa bases. Heart-base itself does not arise in the same place that eye-sense or 'finger' body-sense arises. They arise in different kalapas according to complex conditions. We could describe in ordinary language in detail the point of the finger where the body-consciousness taps the keyboard and experiences hardness. It would be for reference, correct sammuti sacca, to indicate that point of experiencing where that body-sense is. ... ... > Thanks for helping me to reflect on this topic. Thank you for some very precise indications of how "space" is used to indicate, not actual spatial locations, but the types of rupic arenas in which certain types of dhammas arise, eg, heart-base, and the ways in which different constituent rupas of a kalapa come together due to conditions, creating a sense of a spatial organization, but not actual objective physical space as we normally think of it. As I take your meaning, the extensiveness of space in which there is distance and other relations is missing from the spatiality of kalapas. The space that they contain is only the relationship between the various rupas to each other, and their relationship to the base in which they arise. In other words, there is no objective space in which this takes place, and there is no place to go from there. The space that is created by these relations is confined to the relations themselves. It is 100% local. I hope that is not too far off the mark. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125525 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:10 pm Subject: Re: rebirth anagami sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Han, Chew & all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I listened to audio K.K. 2011, March: did I get this right? Anagamis > are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma > planes? They have no conditions for clinging to sense objects and > even when they did not develop jhaana I understand that they are not > reborn in sensuous planes, we discussed this before. Are only those > who developed jhaana reborn in Suddhaavaasa? ... S: Yes, I understand this to be so. From some earlier comments I made: #99133 According to the B.Bodhi's Guide note in CMA (p.361): "A non-returner has fully eradicated sensual lust and ill-will, the fetters that bind to the sensuous world. He has also eradicated the taint of sensual desire and the unwholesome cetasikas, hatred and worry, as well as all greed taking a sensuous object. Thus he will be spontaneously reborn in a fine-material realm and there attain final Nibbaana. *It should be noted that while only non-returners are reborn in the Pure Abodes, there is no fixed determination that all non-returners are reborn there.*" S: I checked the commentary itself, but nothing there. In Bkk we also (briefly) discussed the five types on anagamis mentioned in the texts (as given in CMA p 362). When the Thai was also given and translated (the same), I believe I was told these were the 5 types who had attained jhaana. (The different accumulations). (I had wondered whether the asankhaaraparinibbaayi and sasankhaaraparinibbaayi might refer to those who had attained and had not attained jhaana, but was told this couldn't be so). K. Sujin also made a comment about how she has no interest in such details because they don't help with the development of the Path. Han & Chew, so glad to read your comments and to know you're following the list. Please do chip in and add comments anytime you feel inclined to do so. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125526 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:35 pm Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S: So did the Buddha teach us that there are realities (paramattha >dhamma) - "The All", concepts (pannatti) thought about and then >"experiential truth"? What is the Pali for this third category? > >=========================== > > As I remember, please correct me if I am wrong, Buddha has no where taught explicitly about "absolute" vs "conventional" truth. The first explicit teaching is in the commentaries, and different schools had different specific ideas what is absolute and what is conventional truth. ... S: The first book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, begins by enumerating realities, dhammas - kusala, akusala, abyakatha (all paramattha dhammas other than kusala and akusala dhammas). Those dhammas not enumerated are not realities (paramattha dhammas). What you refer to as your third category, "experiential truth" falls under pannatti, concepts. See CMA or another translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, a summary of the Abhidhamma Pitaka for detail on this. ... > > Just because the Buddha has talked about people in one sutta and ayatanas in another, doesn't mean that any one is more "true" than the other. ... S: The Buddha made it clear that in reality, there are only the dhammas included in the "All". "People" are ideas that can only ever by thought about. ... > > In fact, it seems that "conventional" truth is what we mostly, if always, "live in". ... S: it is what we think about, the commonly accepted terms and conventional truths to "live in" with or without any understanding that they are conventional rather than absolute truths. .... > > Crosswalks, pedestrians, cars - do exist. Hunger, refridgerator, food, etc does exist. Fork has different function from a spoon. Etc. ... S: They all "exist" in a conventional sense only. In actuality, there are no crosswalks, cars or forks. ... > > >Cup does exist. > > ... > > S: We agree there are 6 doorways, right? Which doorway is cup >experienced? > >================================== > > Through at least two. Seeing + touching + recognizing it being a cup. ... S: Do you agree that seeing sees visible object, just that which is seen only? Do you agree that touching touches tangible object only, just that which is tangible - i.e. hardness/softness, temperature and pressure? Yes, sanna recognises such experiences and thinking identifies them based on past memories as being "a cup". So "cup" is only ever experienced through the mind door, recognised and thought about in the mind only. No cup is ever seen or touched in actuality. ... > >S: You are saying that these "wholes" are "experiential truths" - not paramattha dhammas or concepts, is that correct? Is the cup one of these "experiential truths"? ... > Yes, cup is experiential truth. What I believe is wrong is to ascribe permanence, ultimate happiness and thing-in-itself (atta) to a cup. ... S: When you say a cup, an "experiential truth" is anicca, dukkha and anatta, in fact you are ascribing the ti-lakkhana to concepts, to objects of thought, whereas the ti-lakkhana are the characteristics of all conditioned realities. See Jon's old message below elaborating on the various kinds of concepts and Scott's on the nature of impermanence of conditioned dhammas, the khandhas, only. Metta Sarah #3494 by Jonothan on concepts: An analysis of concepts. Ch. VIII of the Adhidhammattha Sangaha - in translation as `A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' (CMA) - contains a detailed analysis of concepts. This section is included because, as mentioned in an earlier post in this series, concepts are included in the abhidhamma by the treatise `Puggala-pannatti'. Concepts are twofold (CMA #29 and Guide to #29): Concept as `that which is made known'; these are called `meaning concepts' or `concepts-as-meanings' (attha-pannatti), and Concept as `that which makes known': these are called `name concepts' or `concepts-as-names' (nama-pannatti). Meaning concepts `Meaning-concept' refers to the meaning conveyed by a concept. For example, the notion of a four-legged, furry domestic animal is the meaning-concept of the term `dog'. [CMA Guide to #29] Name-concepts `Name-concept' is a name or designation that conveys a meaning. For example, the designation and idea `dog' is the name-concept which corresponds to the meaning-concept given in the previous example. [CMA Guide to #29] Each of these 2 kinds of concepts can be further classified as follows There are 6 kinds of meaning concepts (CMA Guide to #30) - 1. Concepts which correspond to the form of things (eg, land, mountain) 2. Concepts which correspond to a collection or group of things (house, chariot, village) 3. Concepts which correspond to a locality or direction (east, west etc) 4, Concepts which correspond to periods or units of time (morning, noon, week etc) 5. Concepts which correspond to spatial regions void of perceptible matter (well, cave etc) 6. Concepts which correspond to the mental sign gained by meditative development (called nimitta-pannati) CMA #30 says: "All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things. They are called concepts because they are thought of … and expressed … on account of … this or that mode. This kind of concept is so called because it is made known." There are also 6 kinds of name-concepts (CMA #31 & Guide to #31) - 1. A (direct) concept of the real. This refers to a concept that designates a reality, eg. `rupa', `feeling'. 2. A (direct) concept of the unreal. This refers to a term that conveys the meaning of a thing that is a conventional entity, not an ultimate reality, eg. `land' and `mountain'. 3. A concept of the unreal by means of the real. In the term `possessor of the sixfold direct knowledge', the direct knowledge are ultimately real but the `possessor' is a mental construction. 4. A concept of the real by means of the unreal. In the term `woman's voice', the sound of the voice ultimately exists but not the woman. 5. A concept of the real by means of the real. In the term `eye-consciousness', both the eye-sensitivity and the consciousness dependent on it exist in an ultimate sense. 6. A concept of the unreal by means of the unreal. In the term `king's son', neither the king nor the son ultimately exist. Concepts are the means by which meaning is understood- In the Summary section (CMA #32) it is explained: "By following the sound of speech through the process of ear-consciousness, and then by means of the concept conceived by (the process in the) mind-door that subsequently arises, meanings are understood. These concepts should be understood as fashioned by worldly convention." To summarise: Although concepts are not real and cannot be the object of satipatthana, it is helpful to know more about them, so that they are not taken for realities. **** #89205 by Scott on the impermanent nature of conditioned realities: SN 22 102(10) Perception of Impermanence At Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, when the perception of impermanence (aniccasa~n~naa) is developed and cultivated, it eliminates all sensual lust, it eliminates all lust for existence, it eliminates all ignorance, it uproots all conceit 'I am'... "And how, bhikkhus, is the perception or impermanence developed and cultivated so that it eliminates all sensual lust, eliminates all lust for existence, eliminates all ignorance, and uproots the conceit 'I am'? (*) 'Such is form, such is its origin, such is its passing away; such is feeling...such is perception...such are volitional formations... such is consciousness, such its origin, such its passing away'; that is how the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated so that it eliminates all sensual lust, eliminates all lust for existence, eliminates all ignorance, and uproots all conceit 'I am.'" *"...Iti ruupa.m iti ruupassa samudayo iti ruupassa atthagamo, iti vedanaa iti vedanaaya samudayo iti veda naaya atthagamo iti sa~n~naa iti sa~n~nassa samudayo iti sa~n~nassa atthagamo Iti sa"nkhaaraa iti sa.nkhaarassa samudayo iti sa"nkhaarassa atthagamo, iti vi~n~naa.na.m iti vi~n~naa.nassa samudayo iti vi~n~naa.nassa atthagamoti. Eva.m bhaavitaa kho bhikkhave, aniccasa~n~naa eva.m bahulikataa sabba.m kaamaraaga.m pariyaadiyataa, sabba.m ruuparaaga.m pariyaadiyati, sabba.m bhavaraaga.m pariyaadiyati, sabba.m avijja.m pariyaadiyati, sabba.m asmimaana.m pariyaadiyati, samuuhantiiti." ========= Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125527 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in speculative philosophy sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, Thanks for your helpful comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > S: So you are saying that the Buddha taught that there are namas and rupas > (elements, khandhas) which are impermanent. Then there are the "wholes" > that are impermanent. > > You are saying that these "wholes" are "experiential truths" - not > paramattha dhammas or concepts, is that correct? Is the cup one of these > "experiential truths"? > ============================= >H: Sarah, in MN 41 the Buddha taught the following: > > "It's by reason of this Dhamma conduct & harmonious conduct that some > beings here, with the break-up of the body, after death, re-appear in the good > destinations, in the heavenly world." > > What is this body that breaks up? It is not a single rupa, is it? ... S: The "break-up of the body" refers to the end of this life-time, to death (cuti citta) and the end of the rupas conditioned by the past kamma which has conditioned the kamma-produced rupas of this life-time, such as the life-faculty, masculinity/femininity, senses, heart-base and so on. So "body" is a conventional term referring to a large array of dhammas. ... And > if it breaks up, is it not, thus, impermanent? ... S: The namas and rupas involved are impermanent. It is these dhammas which arise and fall away. There is no "body", no "whole" apart from these dhammas. ... >As for what door the complex > called a body is known through, of course it is through the mind door and > no other. .. S: What we take for a "body" is just thought about through the mind door. Exactly. What the Buddha was referring to - all the various rupas - arise and fall away all the time. These rupas may be experienced through any of the doorways. ... >And its impermanence is, of course, derived from the arising and > ceasing of its elements. But still, the Buddha himself spoke of the body, > and he spoke of it breaking up. Fictions and concepts don't break up, do > they? ... S: Agreed. "Fictions and concepts don't break up". Rupas do, no matter how they are referred to. In the Buddha's case, without any misunderstanding, without any idea that what is commonly taken for a body actually exists. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125528 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:39 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: >S: :" I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. " > > D: I read recently that the Buddha never refered to the (location of) heart base. > Any canonical source to support the opposite? ... S: The detail is all given in the ancient commentaries. As the Buddha said, whatever is "Budha vacana" is his teaching. For example, as I wrote before: >.....in the Atthasalini, Introductory discourse (PTS transl) it says: "Now when he laid down the table of contents he foresaw that, two hundred and eighteen years after his death, Tissa Moggalii's son, seated in the midst of one thousand bhikkhus, would elaborated the Kathaavatthu to the extent of the Diigha Nikaaya, bringing together five hundred orthodox and five hundred heterodox Suttas. "So Tissa, Moggalii's son, expounded the book not by his own knowledge but according to the table of contents laid down, as well as by the method given, by the Teacher. Hence the entire book became the word of the Buddha."< All the ancient commentaries as approved at the early councils by the Mahavihara Theras are "Buddha vacana", word of the Buddha. Here's a quote by I.B.Horner, which I've given before, from her Preface to the commentary of the Buddhavamsa: "Through enemies and friends alike deleterious change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The commentaries are the armour and protection agains such an eventuality. As they hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true Dhamma, it is essential not only to understand them but to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they comment on it. They are as 'closed' now as is the Pali Canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to be contemplated, and no commentary written in later days could be included within it." **** Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125529 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > S: Of course, having said this, respect is in the citta. > > D: accompanied by which cetasika? I thought about absence of mana , however mana involves not only the conceit to be superior , but as well to be inferior . Probably it is the level of panna which determines kusala or akusala (?) ... S: Yes, panna is the key. We can refer to the respect as the sila, the behaviour by speech and deeds when paying respect to the Triple Gem. However, it depends on panna as to whether there can really be any refuge, any true respect for the Triple Gem, appreciating that no one but the Buddha could have taught us the Dhamma. If we just pay respect by tradition, there will be little confidence because there is little if any panna. It is only by developing right understanding of realities that understanding, confidence and true respect for the Triple Gem will develop. Here's a quote by K.Sujin from the Cambodia talks: "Sujin: Nobody forces you to develop understanding. Buddhists listen to the Dhamma because they take their refuge in the Exalted One, the Sammaasambuddha, in the Dhamma and in the ariyan Sangha, the Community of the enlightened persons. All buddhists take their refuge in the Triple Gem. In what way are the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha of the enlightened persons a refuge? If someone says that he venerates the Exalted One, the Sammaasambuddha, without studying the Dhamma and listening to it, is that true respect? At the time when the Buddha had not passed away buddhists would visit him wherever he dwellt, in order to listen to the Dhamma. They wanted to listen because they realized the excellence of the Dhamma and valued it as a treasure. The Buddha explained that whatever arises does so because of the appropriate conditions and that it then falls away. It is dukkha because it is impermanent. It depends on the individual who listens whether he agrees with this or not, whether he is interested to know this or not. However, it is necessary to study the Dhamma first so that one can understand that the Dhamma as explained by the Buddha is entirely true." ... > S:We can only know our own at any moment. People may looks so respectful as they visit the Holy Places, as they visit temples, as they show respect to monks, but, as we know, there can be a lot of attachment, ignorance and wrong view in between any kusala cittas at such times. > > D: rites and rituals are part of our social life . I think what makes the difference is whether it comes from the heart which I.M.H.O. has much to do with Brahma Vihara.. ... S: Panna and all the perfections. The brahma viharas only arise when beings are the object. So at moments of paying respect to the Buddha, there is aloha, adosa and aloha (if panna is arising), but not the brahma viharas. Metta can only arise in regard to thoughts of loving kindness towards living beings. ... > S:Understanding the Dhamma now, the realities appearing now is the greatest respect to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. > > D: and even more if this understanding of reality , i.e. knowledge and clearseeing according to actuality , serves as condition for disentchantment, dispassion and so detachment. ... S: Yes, whenever understanding arises, there is detachment and dispassion at such moments developing. Metta Sarah ======= Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125530 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:34 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon & Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > RE: Well of course they are creating the conditions for each next one, like dominoes, and thus have a very lawful and identifiable relationship from moment to moment. To say that this is not the case would be to ignore the obvious. > > =============== > > J: Not sure how appropriate the analogy of dominoes is. In the case of the cittas of a steam, the preceding citta must fall away completely before the succeeding one can arise (and that falling away is one of the conditioning factors). It is not said that the preceding citta in any sense *causes* (nor "creates the conditions for") the arising of the succeeding one; ... S: Except that by contiguity condition, anantara paccaya, the falling away of the preceding citta is itself the condition for the arising of the succeeding one. In this way it is one of the *causes* for the succeeding one. ... >there are other forces at play here, one of which is that there are certain fixed orders of cittas (Pali: niyama), for example, the order of cittas in a sense-door process. ... Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125531 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Diamond wedding anniversary upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina & Lodewijk (and Sarah) - Please add my very best wishes to Sarah's. As you know, I consider you two to be a lovely couple, and I wish you years more of good life together and then continued loving existence with each other in this and other happy realms. With much metta, Howard In a message dated 7/14/2012 9:52:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Nina & Lodewijk, Our congratulations and very best wishes for your diamond wedding anniversary - 60 years of good and wise friendship and companionship together is a real blessing. "Even ornamented royal chariots wear out. So too the body reaches old age. But the Dhamma of the Good grows not old. Thus do the Good reveal it among the Good." Dhp 151, Narada transl) "Jiiranti ve raajarathaa sucittaa atho sariiram pi jara.m upeti Sata.m ca dhamma na jara.m upeti Santo have sabbhi pavedayanti." Metta and best wishes for continued wise and joyful companionship. Sarah & Jonothan ===================== [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125532 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in speculative philosophy upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 7/15/2012 3:51:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, Thanks for your helpful comments. --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > S: So you are saying that the Buddha taught that there are namas and rupas > (elements, khandhas) which are impermanent. Then there are the "wholes" > that are impermanent. > > You are saying that these "wholes" are "experiential truths" - not > paramattha dhammas or concepts, is that correct? Is the cup one of these > "experiential truths"? > ============================= >H: Sarah, in MN 41 the Buddha taught the following: > > "It's by reason of this Dhamma conduct & harmonious conduct that some > beings here, with the break-up of the body, after death, re-appear in the good > destinations, in the heavenly world." > > What is this body that breaks up? It is not a single rupa, is it? ... S: The "break-up of the body" refers to the end of this life-time, to death (cuti citta) and the end of the rupas conditioned by the past kamma which has conditioned the kamma-produced rupas of this life-time, such as the life-faculty, masculinity/femininity, senses, heart-base and so on. So "body" is a conventional term referring to a large array of dhammas. ----------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes. An "array" is a collection/aggregate/group/complex of interrelated phenomena, but not a single thing and having no existence independent of its components. But it is certainly not nothing at all. -------------------------------------------------------- ... And > if it breaks up, is it not, thus, impermanent? ... S: The namas and rupas involved are impermanent. It is these dhammas which arise and fall away. There is no "body", no "whole" apart from these dhammas. --------------------------------------------------------- HCW: That is true. But the body/aggregate of rupas is still ever-changing in dependence on the arising and ceasing of its components, and it breaks up at death in dependence on the dispersal and cessation of its component rupas. ----------------------------------------------------------- ... >As for what door the complex > called a body is known through, of course it is through the mind door and > no other. .. S: What we take for a "body" is just thought about through the mind door. ------------------------------------------------------------ HCW: That is true, but it does not mean that there is no basis for that in the relations among the component rupas. ------------------------------------------------------------ Exactly. What the Buddha was referring to - all the various rupas - arise and fall away all the time. These rupas may be experienced through any of the doorways. ... >And its impermanence is, of course, derived from the arising and > ceasing of its elements. But still, the Buddha himself spoke of the body, > and he spoke of it breaking up. Fictions and concepts don't break up, do > they? ... S: Agreed. "Fictions and concepts don't break up". Rupas do, no matter how they are referred to. In the Buddha's case, without any misunderstanding, without any idea that what is commonly taken for a body actually exists. ------------------------------------------------------------ HCW: A rupa ceases but does not "break up". Only collections of phenomena break up. -------------------------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah =================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125533 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Diamond wedding anniversary moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina ( & Lodewijk ) I like to join Sarah and Howard who already put it so nicely : Happy Diamond wedding anniversary ! ( or , one may say: Happiness with your wandering! ) with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125534 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:05 am Subject: Apology to Christine and a Request buddhatrue Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Christine and Sarah, A while back I had written a letter to one of the Star Kids who asked me about the Iraq war. I had written that Saddam Hussein was a bad man who killed his own people and so the war was justified. Christine, appropriately, said that I was wrong and that I was being brainwashed by the American media. Now, with the assistance of YouTube, I have been able to review several videos of 9/11 and have concluded that the American people were duped into believing terrorists were responsible. Now, I see that it was an inside job and that the American government destroyed its own buildings and killed its own people to push wars against oil rich nations. If Bush can kill his own people, then he is no better than Saddam killing his own people- so I was wrong to say what I did to that Star Kid. So, I sincerely apologize to Christine and the Star Kids and ask that you remove that particular post from the recommended reading list (if it is still there). Thanks. Metta, James Reply | Messages in this Topic (14) #125535 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:34 am Subject: Re: Dustrags 4 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > By the way, I really think you don't have to worry about being harassed by my from now on, I know and you know how often I have talked about leaving DSG for a good little while, but I really do feel the time has come, as I have said I have another religion I am interested in now. I like that old chestnut about "if you love someone set them free, if the love is true, they will return" or whatever it is. I am pretty confident that my connection to Dhamma will survive, but for now I am going in a different direction (with quite a few parallels to Dhamma) for awhile, to something I was interested in before Dhamma, it feels fresh now. And so Dhamma will feel fresh again someday. > > So not to worry, you are really into Dhamma, discussing a lot, feel at ease, I will not be lurking, ready to pounce. This one visit was in response to having seen that Dustrags series, that's all. Well, you may be gone by now, but in any case, take care - hope your path is a good one and works out well. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125536 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:57 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. Pt. 1. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > RE: I don't think it's clear that this is the case. The Buddha spoke about many conventional actions and objects and included them as part of the path in his speech. He did not make the statement that he only spoke of such things for convenience and that only understanding dhammas constituted the path. It is a point of interpretation to assert this, not a point of fact. > > > > When the Buddha says that one should not drink alcohol because it clouds the mind, some would say that this is just a signpost for mental factors; others would say that it is a literal prohibition; and others would say that both the mental state and the action are important [that is what I would say.] It is not settled which of these three views most accurately reflect the Buddha's teaching, but it is clear that the third alternative is the one the Buddha followed in his way of addressing such issues. Since such a view does not contradict commentary, and does make most sense of the Buddha's own words, it is the alternative that I choose to adopt. > > =============== > > J: There is no doubt but that the Buddha encouraged the development of kusala of all kinds, and not just the development of panna. > > But `kusala' is a (purely) mental quality; not a characteristic of a conventional activity. Conventional activities cannot have directly experiencable characteristics. Perhaps, so, but you do not address my point - at least here, that an unwholesome activity *cannot* be undertaken by someone while in a kusala mental state. The kusala may not come from the action, but the action does come from the kusala, from the mental state. The action is not just beside the point, but is the expression of the kusala or akusala. A wholesome-seeming action can be ruined by an akusala mental state, but an unwholesome action cannot be corrected by a kusala mental state, I would say, in most cases. For instance, as I pointed out, one cannot murder someone while in a kusala mental state. One cannot engage in wrong speech while in a kusala mental state. So kusala does have expression and influence in conventional actions or restraint fro such actions, even though the action in and of itself is not the creator of the kusala. So perhaps you can address this point, and what its significance is? To me it means that there is a connection between kusala and conventional action, and that kusala precludes actions that are unwholesome by definition, according to the Buddha. A person cannot be drinking, smoking. cursing and beating their child while in a kusala mental state. It's just not going to happen. Kusala leads one in a wholesome direction in life as well as in mind. Would you not agree? > "Mind is the forerunner of states [J: dhammas]. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. > > Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves." A "forerunner" creates what comes after it. Kusala mental states are the forerunner of kusala speech and actions. That is my point. They are connected in that way, even though the kusala does not primarily reside in the action, but in the mental state. Still, there are actions that are inherently akusala and their relation to kusala is that the kusala will keep them from being carried out. A kusala mental state will not lead to a man mercilessly beating his horse. Would it ever? No. They cannot coincide because cruelly beating one's horse is inherently akusala in itself. > So when the Buddha speaks about conventionally kusala actions, he of course means that part of any action that is accompanied by kusala. My point is that there are actions that are inherently akusala, they cannot be kusala and cannot arise from or accompany kusala. And there are actions that will arise from kusala and they will be benign acts or they will be acts that are the result of kusala, or they will express the kusala. Washing the dishes is not especially good or evil, just a task, but if kusala is arising, the dishes will be washed in a benign and wholesome manner, so the kusala mental state influences and infiltrates the conventional action. They are not disassociated from each other. Have to go, but more later... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125537 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:06 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. Pt. 2. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > Furthermore, when the development of kusala (other than insight) is encouraged, it is generally in the context of the development of insight, that is to say, not just for its own sake. My point, though disputed, is that the other forms of kusala are necessary, not just desirable, to the development of insight. Without kusala, how can one have detachment, peacefulness and clarity? Without those, how can one have insight? If the defilements are buzzing like crazy, arising all the time, I would not expect much insight to develop. > > =============== > > RE: While I think that direct understanding is the ultimate fruit of the path, and while I think that enlightenment is a matter of the transformation of consciousness, I don't agree that the path is only constituted of understanding, but of all the factors that the Buddha spoke of. > > =============== > > J: The "ultimate fruit of the path" is surely enlightenment, with direct understanding (of dhammas) as its means. The Buddha gave an eightfold path. It is my contention that those eight factors have to be developed in their own right, not just through mental development alone. > > =============== > > > J: All understanding arises in the context of life in samsara; there is no such thing as understanding that is 'removed from all life circumstances' (not sure what you have in mind by this expression). > > > > RE: What I have in mind is considering intellectual understandings removed from conventional issues that occur in everyday life, such as one's work, behavior, relationships, and other life circumstances. > > =============== > > J: When talking about understanding in the context of the development of the path, we are talking about the understanding *of dhammas*, right? > > There is no such thing as the understanding of dhammas that is removed from everyday life. And conversely there is no situation in everyday life in which it is impossible for understanding of dhammas to arise (if conditions are appropriate). There is a difference between extracting the understand of dhammas from what is conventionally experienced, as though it finds no expression or demonstration in conventional experience at all, and seeing the activity of dhammas within the activities of everyday life, rather than removing them to a separate paramatha plane. I think there is quite a bit of dualism in most of our consideration of dhammas, divorcing them from what is experienced in life, which indeed is what most of us experience 24/7. Instead we see the theoretical arising of dhammas - little monads separate from experience - as more important than a mother beating a child or an alcoholic taking a drink. I think it's more worthwhile to understand the role of akusala dhammas in *those* events, rather than how they occur in an official theoretical series in a book. The book should lead us to understand how to view life-events correctly, not how to ignore them. In addition, there is a difference between seeing everyday life as nothing but an occasion for understanding dhammas, and seeing it as the ground of development of the eightfold path, with actual livelihood, speech, behavior, etc. being part of the development of the path. I think if we concentrate only on intellectual factors, we miss the development of kusala in everyday life. By the way, I would like to stress that when I argue for this, it is not an argument in my favor. I'm terrible at the development of kusala in everyday life, and I agree it's not something we can control. I still think it's necessary however, and that it's the right perspective to adopt. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125538 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:13 am Subject: Re: Diamond wedding anniversary glenjohnann Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina and Lodewijk I add my congratulations and best wishes to you both. Wonderful to have so many years of happiness, support and encouragement together and to be able to share in the blessings of the Dhamma while sharing the Dhamma with others as well. Wishing you more of the same. With metta Ann and Glen --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Nina & Lodewijk, > > Our congratulations and very best wishes for your diamond wedding anniversary - 60 years of good and wise friendship and companionship together is a real blessing. > > "Even ornamented royal chariots wear out. > > So too the body reaches old age. > > But the Dhamma of the Good grows not old. > > Thus do the Good reveal it among the Good." Dhp 151, Narada transl) > > "Jiiranti ve raajarathaa sucittaa > atho sariiram pi jara.m upeti > Sata.m ca dhamma na jara.m upeti > Santo have sabbhi pavedayanti." > > Metta and best wishes for continued wise and joyful companionship. > > Sarah & Jonothan > ===================== > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125539 From: "Christine" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Diamond wedding anniversary christine_fo... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Happy Diamond Anniversary! How joyously wonderful! May you have happy, peaceful years to come. with metta and respect, Chris Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125540 From: han tun Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Diamond wedding anniversary hantun1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina and Lodewijk, I join Sarah and others in congratulating you for your very happy diamond wedding anniversary. with metta and respect, Han and Tin Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125541 From: Vince Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fear cerovzt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Alberto wrote: >For it is simply the mere judgment that past formation have ceased, present ones are >ceasing, and future ones will cease.]...(Vis-ch.21 Nn transl). [..] > Also, the quote you posted follows a 'Before my enlightenment, while I was still a > bodhisatta...' statement, which explains why he was still experiencing (akusala) fear. thanks Alberto for the clarifications, best, Vince, Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125542 From: Vince Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fear cerovzt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Philip you wrote: > This is one reason I am turning to another religion for the mental candy I need for my > fear. Dhamma is most valuable as a path of detachment, seeing akusala mind states > without running away from them. But I think it is beyond us, there is a deeply > accumulated tendency to latch on to comforting ideas, with lobha. disenchantment is needed to be aware of the first noble truth. I think this disenchantment is not falling in sadness but being aware of the trick operating in us, then one can understand the sensorial world is not a reliable source of happiness. > the worlding knows no escape from unpleasant mental states except by seeking pleasant > memtal states I think this is referred to those worldlings who ignore Dhamma, not us. Fear, hate, etc.. all them can be subdued in the present moment by the worldlings. There is not comfort in the world when dukkha is really strong. Subduing becomes powerful according detachment. My view is the present moment is like an island in where one can find refugee. Any person can be aware of this place when there is a flooding of unpleasant thoughts, emotions or feelings. In those moments one should rescue the present moment, and in that same instant one can check where they have gone. Just a short instant is enough to see the way, and anyone can check it. Because one can observe the poor stabilization of this situation and the speed of attachment to the mind contents, therefore the understanding of the situation is available. And from here all depends of everyone. We can read about many vipassana-stages, etc... Study and practice are needed to get understanding and detachment, although all can be fulfilled in a flash even without knowing many things. Not easy, not difficult. Nobody knows. best, Vince, Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125543 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:44 pm Subject: Re: Diamond wedding anniversary philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Congratulations, Nina and Lodewijk. You have written and are continuing to write a splendid love story. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125544 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fear philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Vince > > disenchantment is needed to be aware of the first noble truth. I think this disenchantment > is not falling in sadness but being aware of the trick operating in us, then one can > understand the sensorial world is not a reliable source of happiness. Yes, disenchantment when all is going well, that. Ironic that it is pleasant vipaka rather than harsh vipaka that drags us deeper into infatuation and intoxication. > > > the worlding knows no escape from unpleasant mental states except by seeking pleasant > > memtal states > > I think this is referred to those worldlings who ignore Dhamma, not us. Fear, hate, etc.. > all them can be subdued in the present moment by the worldlings. Ph: Well, I'm not convinced about that, I think there are many deeply accumulated, lobha-rooted keaps of the mibd to comfort for us, but my (so to speak) saddha is running on very low gear these days. V: There is not comfort in > the world when dukkha is really strong. > ph: Right, we want out of that first degree of obvious dukkha. (dukkha dukkha?) > Subduing becomes powerful according detachment. My view is the present moment is like an > island in where one can find refugee. Any person can be aware of this place when there is > a flooding of unpleasant thoughts, emotions or feelings. In those moments one should > rescue the present moment, and in that same instant one can check where they have gone. ph: Well, I am all for this as part of the "empowerment" I get from my new-age pop psychology but I have a hunch that when it comes to a strict understanding of Dhamma "rescuing the present moment" (which I like to do through meditation, and I like that term) is all about lobha. But again, it could well be that my lack of saddha about householders really gettung to the core of tge Dhamma in a kusala way us obstructing me. That could very well change in the future. I will have to stop there Vince, thanks. Tough to tap this out on the iphone, there has been virya for a few kusala moments! sorry if there are lots of typos. Phil > Just a short instant is enough to see the way, and anyone can check it. Because one can > observe the poor stabilization of this situation and the speed of attachment to the mind > contents, therefore the understanding of the situation is available. And from here all > depends of everyone. > We can read about many vipassana-stages, etc... Study and practice are needed to get > understanding and detachment, although all can be fulfilled in a flash even without > knowing many things. Not easy, not difficult. Nobody knows. > > > best, > > > Vince, > Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125545 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:18 pm Subject: Re: Dustrags 4 philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello Rob E Still here because I am in danger of losing connection to Dhamma but I will not be harassing you. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Phil. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > By the way, I really think you don't have to worry about being harassed by my from now on, I know and you know how often I have talked about leaving DSG for a good little while, but I really do feel the time has come, as I have said I have another religion I am interested in now. I like that old chestnut about "if you love someone set them free, if the love is true, they will return" or whatever it is. I am pretty confident that my connection to Dhamma will survive, but for now I am going in a different direction (with quite a few parallels to Dhamma) for awhile, to something I was interested in before Dhamma, it feels fresh now. And so Dhamma will feel fresh again someday. > > > > So not to worry, you are really into Dhamma, discussing a lot, feel at ease, I will not be lurking, ready to pounce. This one visit was in response to having seen that Dustrags series, that's all. > > Well, you may be gone by now, but in any case, take care - hope your path is a good one and works out well. > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - > Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125546 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Diamond wedding anniversary epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina and Lodewijk. I am joining in with Han's email to wish you great congratulations also. A very lovely occasion! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina and Lodewijk, > > I join Sarah and others in congratulating you for your very happy diamond wedding anniversary. > > with metta and respect, > > Han and Tin > Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125547 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:50 pm Subject: Re: Dustrags 4 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Hello Rob E > > Still here because I am in danger of losing connection to Dhamma but I will not be harassing you. Thanks for writing. If you are here to stay connected to Dhamma, I am very happy about that. I hope you get the insight and understanding that you need. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125548 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:59 pm Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi James and all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Christine and Sarah, > > A while back I had written a letter to one of the Star Kids who asked me about the Iraq war. I had written that Saddam Hussein was a bad man who killed his own people and so the war was justified. Christine, appropriately, said that I was wrong and that I was being brainwashed by the American media. > > Now, with the assistance of YouTube, I have been able to review several videos of 9/11 and have concluded that the American people were duped into believing terrorists were responsible. Now, I see that it was an inside job and that the American government destroyed its own buildings and killed its own people to push wars against oil rich nations. If Bush can kill his own people, then he is no better than Saddam killing his own people- so I was wrong to say what I did to that Star Kid. > > So, I sincerely apologize to Christine and the Star Kids and ask that you remove that particular post from the recommended reading list (if it is still there). Thanks. Though I don't think we're here to have a political debate, I think it's worthwhile to say that I do not believe the conspiracy theories about 911 being an 'inside job' at all. I'm from New York and my parents saw the World Trade Center buildings come down from their window. I also have friends who were nearby and experienced it close up. There is no evidence of any kind that the US government flew the planes into the buildings or that it was blown up from inside. And I am no fan of GW Bush. I do think he and Dick Cheney faked their way into the war in Iraq, but 9/11 was produced by Al Queda, and they were and are a real organization. My wife who works here in Washington, D.C. was able to see the Pentagon on fire from her office at the U.S. State Department. Friends in the government were there in the Pentagon when the plane hit and experienced the fires, saw their co-workers die, etc. There was no 'inside knowledge' that any of this was going to happen. Anyway, as I said, I am no fan of the Bush Administration. I think they ignored warnings that this was going to happen and responded to it in many incorrect ways, but I think it's a big mistake to announce as a fact that it was an "inside job" and that the American government would kill so many of its own people without getting caught. That's going a bit too far. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (14) #125549 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apology to Christine and a Request moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi RobE you wrote: That's going a bit too far. D: a bit too much of an understatement .. with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (14) #125550 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:48 pm Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:1.Is the 'whole' which you say is anicca, dukkha and anatta, a >paramattha dhamma or a concept? > >============================= > > It is experiential truth. I don't want to drive into a tree at 100 km/h. ... S: As discussed yesterday, what you refer to as 'experiential truth" are all concepts. You seem to be stuck with the idea that if the understanding develops of realities, paramattha dhammas, as taught by the Buddha, that this means you'll "drive into a tree at 100 km/h". The Buddha didn't go round bumping into trees and understanding realities doesn't mean any of us will be driving into trees. This is a complete misunderstanding of satipatthana. ... > If one is hungry, one opens the fridge and eats. Spoon has different function from a knife. If one is thirsty, one drinks water. Cup does exist. ... S: Dhammas exist no matter any of the activities you refer to. Understanding dhammas doesn't mean not opening the fridge! It means that there is no illusion that in an ultimate sense there is a fridge. "Fridge" is not the object of satipatthana. ... > > >2.Are the namas and rupas, which you suggest are parts of this >'whole', anicca, dukkha and anatta as well? > >============================ > > Yes. Whole and the parts are inconstant. Whole thing will eventually break apart. We can't base our happiness on them. ... S: You are saying the "fridge" is inconstant and will fall apart and that we cannot base our understanding on it. Is this the Teaching we need to hear from a Buddha? Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125551 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:00 pm Subject: Re: Awareness and Thinking, no 5. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > You have had good examples with birds, who also btw, chirp outside and the hearing is not due to "me choosing to hear" but due to impersonal conditions. ... S: In reality, just hearing of sounds, followed by thinking about "chirping birds". Yes, hearing, like all other conditioned realities arises due to "impersonal conditions" - no "me choosing" at all. Glad we agree on this. ... > > As for reflecting, and considering, do you think it is good to read over and over again some inspiring passages on anicca, asubha, dukkha, anatta? ... S: I'd like to stress that there is no rule at all. it is the wise considering, the understanding that is important no matter the activity. Some will read such passages with understanding, some with ignorance. Same now when there is the hearing of sounds. What we might find helpful is not for everyone. ... > I do agree regarding accumulation of conditions so that good states naturally arise. But even then, -> > > 1)what is the role of present intention? ... S: Just as you said above: "the hearing is not due to "me choosing to hear" but due to impersonal conditions." Same applies to intention and all conditioned dhammas. When the citta is kusala, the cetana is also kusala. When the citta is akusala, the cetana is akusala. Take the reading of the dhamma passage on the ti-lakkhana - if there is wise considering, the cetana is wholesome. If there is attachment to understanding or to the words, the cetana is unwholesome. ... > > 2)Is thinking "Things are conditioned, no control, so whatever akusala happens, let akusala happen" is itself another condition for more akusala and thus, is wrong? ... S: it depends what is meant by "let akusala happen". Sounds suspect. Understanding akusala that has arisen now is just a conditioned dhamma, not-self, is right. ... > > 3) Should one try to be good in the present, even though this is fully conditioned, and whatever happens is due to conditions. ... S: Usually "trying to be good" means not understanding anatta, conditioned dhammas. However, it may just be a manner of speech as when one tells a child to 'be good" or reminds a friend here not to regret or be afraid, for example. Only the understanding can know at this moment. ... > > I prefer to communicate through postings like here. ... S: That's fine. I do as well. Just a thought as you may not have opportunities for live dhamma discussions as some of us do. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125552 From: "Christine" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request christine_fo... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Christine and Sarah, > > A while back I had written a letter to one of the Star Kids who asked me about the Iraq war. I had written that Saddam Hussein was a bad man who killed his own people and so the war was justified. Christine, appropriately, said that I was wrong and that I was being brainwashed by the American media. > > Metta, > James > Hello James, It must have been quite some time ago - can you (or anyone) give a link to that thread please? with metta Chris Reply | Messages in this Topic (14) #125553 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apology to Christine and a Request sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Chris, >________________________________ > From: Christine >It must have been quite some time ago - can you (or anyone) give a link to that thread please? .... S: see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20582 and messages by James, you and others following it in the thread. James, don't worry - I'm sure that reply of yours wasn't one of the good ones saved in UP 'teaching Dhamma to children". Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (14) #125554 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > S: When there is understanding of ignorance now, there is also understanding of past ignorance and future ignorance. When there is understanding of attachment now as anatta, there is understanding that past attachment is like this and future attachment will also be like this. So by understanding dhammas now, there is an understanding of momentary death. At the end of this lifetime, conditioned dhammas arising and passing away like now. > > > D: Not cleasr to me what you mean. Ignorance/avijja is defined by not knowing the 4 Noble Truths. How can you understand what you still do not fully know and only get by deepest penetration/path training ? ... S: Such understanding has to develop gradually. For example, the 1st NT refers to the unsatisfactory nature of impermanent, conditioned dhammas. So by beginning to understanding seeing, visible object, other realities now, there is the beginning of understanding the truths, the beginning of overcoming ignorance. The first vipassana nana is the clear comprehension of namas and rupas. It has to begin now, ... > To understand the reality (the All) now one needs to have established the foundation of mindfulness (Satipatthana) .. and to understand what is beyond the All, one practises Jhana. I.e. the 7th and 8th step as part of the (sila-)-samadhi training are the means to develop understanding (panna) ... S: At a moment of seeing, the experiencing of visible object is "All" that exist at that moment. Satipatthana has to develop now when there has been the clear understanding of present realities. To realise the unconditioned dhamma, the only way is the development of satipatthana, this is the Path. ... > > D.O. can be understood to refer to lifetimes (samsara) and to the process going on here and now.. > The chain of D.O. is not interrupted ..when there is death there is birth , at least until the chain is not broken. > To use a metaphor with cards :game over, the cards are newly shuffled ..starting again with different cards but with the same system.. > > I like to emphasise the misunderstanding that avijja and sankhara ( first and second ) has been finalized / belong to the previous life , they belong to inumerable previous moments .. we possibly agree on that.. (?) .... S: Avijja and sankhara accumulated in past lifetimes conditioned birth and subsequent vipaka cittas during this life-time. Avijja and sankhara arising now, accumulating now will condition further kamma and further results, vipaka, in future, including future births. There are 3 rounds of vipaka cittas, kusala/akusala cittas and kamma....round and round and round. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125555 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, you wrote: S: :" I think it's our understanding that gets it wrong, not the commentaries. When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. " > > D: I read recently that the Buddha never refered to the (location of) heart base. > Any canonical source to support the opposite? ... S: The detail is all given in the ancient commentaries. As the Buddha said, whatever is "Budha vacana" is his teaching. For example, as I wrote before: >.....in the Atthasalini, Introductory discourse (PTS transl) it says: "Now when he laid down the table of contents he foresaw that, two hundred and eighteen years after his death, Tissa Moggalii's son, seated in the midst of one thousand bhikkhus, would elaborated the Kathaavatthu to the extent of the Diigha Nikaaya, bringing together five hundred orthodox and five hundred heterodox Suttas. "So Tissa, Moggalii's son, expounded the book not by his own knowledge but according to the table of contents laid down, as well as by the method given, by the Teacher. Hence the entire book became the word of the Buddha."< D: just additional conc. Kathaavatthu (Wiki excerpt) : The inclusion of the Kathavatthu in the Abhidhamma Pitaka has sometimes been thought of as something of an anomaly. First, the book is not regarded as being the words of the Buddha himself - its authorship is traditionally attributed to Moggaliputta Tissa. However this is not unusual: the Vinaya's accounts of the first two Councils are obviously also not the Buddha's actual words.[6] Second, the subject matter of the Kathavatthu differs substantially from that of the other texts in the Abhidhamma - but this is true of the Puggalapannatti as well.Scholars sometimes also point to the inclusion of some obviously later (relatively new) sections of the Kathavatthu in the Tipitaka as an indication that the Pali Canon was more 'open' than has sometimes been thought, and as illustrative of the process of codifying new texts as canonical. In fact this too is not unusual, there being quite a bit of relatively late material in the Canon S:All the ancient commentaries as approved at the early councils by the Mahavihara Theras are "Buddha vacana", word of the Buddha . Here's a quote by I.B.Horner, which I've given before, from her Preface to the commentary of the Buddhavamsa: "Through enemies and friends alike deleterious change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The commentaries are the armour and protection agains such an eventuality. As they hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true Dhamma, it is essential not only to understand them but to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they comment on it. They are as 'closed' now as is the Pali Canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to be contemplated, and no commentary written in later days could be included within it." **** D: well I don't doubt that 'The commentaries are the armour and protection against deterioration' assumed of course nothing new is added . I don't even exclude the possibility that the heart base plays a certain role in telepathy , though I do not believe it.. so far ;-) You are stating " When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. " But , Sarah , is this is not your interpretatation without canonical support ? ( relying - as I understand- only on a special passage of Vis M. ) Let us recall the authority .. ( Maha parinibbana sutta ,translated by Sister Vajira & Francis Story): Four Great References 7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. [37] Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying: "So be it, Lord." 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu - or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu - or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." footnote 37:In the earlier edition of this work, mahapadesa was rendered as "great authorities." It is now known that the proper meaning of apadesa is not "authority," but "reference" or "source." Besides, from the passage it is clear that there are only two real "authorities" - the Discourses (Suttas) and the Discipline (Vinaya). unquote with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125556 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:04 am Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, all, >S:You are saying the "fridge" is inconstant and will fall apart >and >that we cannot base our understanding on it. Is this the >Teaching >we need to hear from a Buddha? >====================================== All things are inconstant and because of that cannot give constant happiness. I believe that things that are most directly visible here and now are more important. I also think that Buddha's analysis into elements is not meant to be taken metaphysically "things don't exist". Rather, I believe, it denies their unity and constancy. Something that is made of parts, can break apart - anicca. Buddha, IMHO, denied the existence of one singular-inner-core called Atta. He did not deny the empirical world of people and things. >S:Dhammas exist no matter any of the activities you refer to. >Understanding dhammas doesn't mean not opening the fridge! It means >that there is no illusion that in an ultimate sense there is a >fridge. "Fridge" is not the object of satipatthana. >==================================== It seems to me that holding idea that some things don't exist, and then using them as if they exist, is a bit too problematic, don't you think? I believe that "conceptual" objects are on the same level as "ultimate" objects in sense that they are anicca, dukkha, anatta, and can be objects of satipatthana. In satipatthana sutta, 31 bodyparts are objects of satipatthana! With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125557 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Apology to Christine and a Request buddhatrue Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah (and Christine), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > >________________________________ > > From: Christine > > >It must have been quite some time ago - can you (or anyone) give a link to that thread please? > .... > S: see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20582 > and messages by James, you and others following it in the thread. > > James, don't worry - I'm sure that reply of yours wasn't one of the good ones saved in UP 'teaching Dhamma to children". > Okay, thanks for letting me know. Metta, James Reply | Messages in this Topic (14) #125558 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:05 pm Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request buddhatrue Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Though I don't think we're here to have a political debate, I think it's worthwhile to say that I do not believe the conspiracy theories about 911 being an 'inside job' at all. I'm from New York and my parents saw the World Trade Center buildings come down from their window. I also have friends who were nearby and experienced it close up. There is no evidence of any kind that the US government flew the planes into the buildings or that it was blown up from inside. And I am no fan of GW Bush. I do think he and Dick Cheney faked their way into the war in Iraq, but 9/11 was produced by Al Queda, and they were and are a real organization. My wife who works here in Washington, D.C. was able to see the Pentagon on fire from her office at the U.S. State Department. Friends in the government were there in the Pentagon when the plane hit and experienced the fires, saw their co-workers die, etc. There was no 'inside knowledge' that any of this was going to happen. > > Anyway, as I said, I am no fan of the Bush Administration. I think they ignored warnings that this was going to happen and responded to it in many incorrect ways, but I think it's a big mistake to announce as a fact that it was an "inside job" and that the American government would kill so many of its own people without getting caught. That's going a bit too far. > I think that everything that happens in life is related to the Dhamma. There is no subject outside of the Dhamma. For example, in the Kalama Sutta the people of Kalama were very confused because several holy men had come through town and they each taught something different, and they each claimed that they alone were right. The Buddha taught the Kalamas: Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel008.html#kal Rob E, it sounds like you have formed your opinion based on the opinion of others and not your own experience. I did the same thing before I reviewed all the evidence I wasn't exposed to before. If you thoroughly research this subject, ponder it on your own without outside influence, and still come to the same conclusion- fair enough. But you owe it to yourself to not believe others in this regard (or any regard, really). Metta, James Reply | Messages in this Topic (14) #125559 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:42 am Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello James, all, Did you read this? Is this true? The Official Version of 9/11 goes something like this… Directed by a beardy-guy from a cave in Afghanistan, nineteen hard-drinking, coke-snorting, devout Muslims enjoy lap dances before their mission to meet Allah… Using nothing more than craft knifes, they overpower cabin crew, passengers and pilots on four planes… And hangover or not, they manage to give the world's most sophisticated air defense system the slip… Unphased by leaving their "How to Fly a Passenger Jet" guide in the car at the airport, they master the controls in no-time and score direct hits on two towers, causing THREE to collapse completely… Our masterminds even manage to overpower the odd law of physics or two… and the world watches in awe as steel-framed buildings fall symmetrically – through their own mass – at free-fall speed, for the first time in history. Despite all their dastardly cunning, they stupidly give their identity away by using explosion-proof passports, which survive the fireball undamaged and fall to the ground… only to be discovered by the incredible crime-fighting sleuths at the FBI… …Meanwhile down in Washington… Hani Hanjour, having previously flunked 2-man Cessna flying school, gets carried away with all the success of the day and suddenly finds incredible abilities behind the controls of a Boeing… Instead of flying straight down into the large roof area of the Pentagon, he decides to show off a little… Executing an incredible 270 degree downward spiral, he levels off to hit the low facade of the world's most heavily defended building… …all without a single shot being fired…. or ruining the nicely mowed lawn… and all at a speed just too fast to capture on video… …Later, in the skies above Pennsylvania… So desperate to talk to loved ones before their death, some passengers use sheer willpower to connect mobile calls that otherwise would not be possible until several years later… And following a heroic attempt by some to retake control of Flight 93, it crashes into a Shankesville field leaving no trace of engines, fuselage or occupants… except for the standard issue Muslim terrorists bandana… …Further south in Florida… President Bush, our brave Commander-in-Chief continues to read "My Pet Goat" [with] a class full of primary school children… shrugging off the obvious possibility that his life could be in imminent danger… …In New York… World Trade Center leaseholder Larry Silverstein blesses his own foresight in insuring the buildings against terrorist attack only six weeks previously… While back in Washington, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz shake their heads in disbelief at their own luck in getting the `New Pearl Harbor' catalyzing event they so desired to pursue their agenda of world domination… And finally, not to be disturbed too much by reports of their own deaths, at least seven of our nineteen suicide hijackers turn up alive and kicking in mainstream media reports… http://spktruth2power.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/official-911-fairy-tale/ ============================================================== With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (14) #125560 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:48 am Subject: grow disenchanted with stress moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all, I stumbled upon following verses ( Dhammapada 277-279 ) "Sabbe saàkhârâ aniccâ'ti; yadâ paññâya passati atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyâ. Sabbe saàkhârâ dukkhâ'ti; yadâ paññâya passati atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyâ. Sabbe dhammâ anattâ'ti; yadâ paññâya passati atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyâ." - When you see with discernment, 'All fabrications are inconstant' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. When you see with discernment, 'All fabrications are stressful' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. When you see with discernment, 'All phenomena are not-self' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. (translated By Thanissaro Bhikkhu ) ' Grow disentchanted with stress' ? Sounds to me rather strange . Who needs that ? Of course we want to get rid of it , usually looking for a replacement with the pleasant , the main troublemaker ( kama tanha or lobha , i.e. the craving for sensual pleasure ). So it is lust we need to grow disenchanted with , contrary to the statement, isn't it? The translation seems to be correct (nibbindati acc. to PTS : to be disgusted with,dissatisfied with, fed up). Not assuming an error , I suppose , the saying is taken out of context .. ( sutta source ? ) But perhaps I misunderstand .. (?) with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125561 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:21 am Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request buddhatrue Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello James, all, > > Did you read this? Is this true? That is a satirical account of the impossibility of the official version of events. They are all true. My favorites are how two planes imploded three buildings and that after hitting the Pentagon, the responsible plane simply disappeared (Yes, that is what happened. The French did a study but America didn't). Like the Buddha said, we should learn to know things from our own efforts, not by what others tell us to be true. Metta, James > > The Official Version of 9/11 goes something like this… > > Directed by a beardy-guy from a cave in Afghanistan, nineteen hard-drinking, coke-snorting, devout Muslims enjoy lap dances before their mission to meet Allah… > > Using nothing more than craft knifes, they overpower cabin crew, passengers and pilots on four planes… > > And hangover or not, they manage to give the world's most sophisticated air defense system the slip… > > Unphased by leaving their "How to Fly a Passenger Jet" guide in the car at the airport, they master the controls in no-time and score direct hits on two towers, causing THREE to collapse completely… > > Our masterminds even manage to overpower the odd law of physics or two… and the world watches in awe as steel-framed buildings fall symmetrically – through their own mass – at free-fall speed, for the first time in history. > > Despite all their dastardly cunning, they stupidly give their identity away by using explosion-proof passports, which survive the fireball undamaged and fall to the ground… only to be discovered by the incredible crime-fighting sleuths at the FBI… > > …Meanwhile down in Washington… > > Hani Hanjour, having previously flunked 2-man Cessna flying school, gets carried away with all the success of the day and suddenly finds incredible abilities behind the controls of a Boeing… > > Instead of flying straight down into the large roof area of the Pentagon, he decides to show off a little… > > Executing an incredible 270 degree downward spiral, he levels off to hit the low facade of the world's most heavily defended building… > > …all without a single shot being fired…. or ruining the nicely mowed lawn… and all at a speed just too fast to capture on video… > > …Later, in the skies above Pennsylvania… > > So desperate to talk to loved ones before their death, some passengers use sheer willpower to connect mobile calls that otherwise would not be possible until several years later… > > And following a heroic attempt by some to retake control of Flight 93, it crashes into a Shankesville field leaving no trace of engines, fuselage or occupants… except for the standard issue Muslim terrorists bandana… > > …Further south in Florida… > > President Bush, our brave Commander-in-Chief continues to read "My Pet Goat" [with] a class full of primary school children… shrugging off the obvious possibility that his life could be in imminent danger… > > …In New York… > > World Trade Center leaseholder Larry Silverstein blesses his own foresight in insuring the buildings against terrorist attack only six weeks previously… > > While back in Washington, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz shake their heads in disbelief at their own luck in getting the `New Pearl Harbor' catalyzing event they so desired to pursue their agenda of world domination… > > And finally, not to be disturbed too much by reports of their own deaths, at least seven of our nineteen suicide hijackers turn up alive and kicking in mainstream media reports… > http://spktruth2power.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/official-911-fairy-tale/ > ============================================================== > > With best wishes, > > Alex > Reply | Messages in this Topic (14) #125562 From: Ken O Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Deiter  I felt the useage of stress does not show the full extent of dukkha. This is something i felt personally a misintepretation of the term dukkha.  Dukkha could be very immense pain both physical and mental. Stress does not put the flavour properly, the immensity of dukkha. Stress put a shade of dukkha.  You could disagree with me but I felt, translation should alawys show the intended meaning of the dhamma  thanks KC    From: Dieter Moeller >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, 17 July 2012, 23:48 >Subject: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress > > > >Dear all, > >I stumbled upon following verses ( Dhammapada 277-279 ) > >"Sabbe saà khârâ aniccâ'ti; >yadâ paññâya passati >atha nibbindati dukkhe >esa maggo visuddhiyâ. > >Sabbe saà khârâ dukkhâ'ti; >yadâ paññâya passati >atha nibbindati dukkhe >esa maggo visuddhiyâ. > >Sabbe dhammâ anattâ'ti; >yadâ paññâya passati >atha nibbindati dukkhe >esa maggo visuddhiyâ." > >- > >When you see with discernment, 'All fabrications are inconstant' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. When you see with discernment, 'All fabrications are stressful' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. When you see with discernment, 'All phenomena are not-self' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. (translated By Thanissaro Bhikkhu ) > >' Grow disentchanted with stress' ? Sounds to me rather strange . Who needs that ? Of course we want to get rid of it , usually looking for a replacement with the pleasant , the main troublemaker ( kama tanha or lobha , i.e. the craving for sensual pleasure ). > >So it is lust we need to grow disenchanted with , contrary to the statement, isn't it? > >The translation seems to be correct (nibbindati acc. to PTS : to be disgusted with,dissatisfied with, fed up). > >Not assuming an error , I suppose , the saying is taken out of context .. ( sutta source ? ) > >But perhaps I misunderstand .. (?) > >with Metta Dieter > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125563 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:32 am Subject: Emergency Dhamma Injection (EDI) : indriya-paccaya philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear group Lying here unable to sleep, conspiracy theory fever throwing me around my bed. Did I $really$ read those posts or did the government plant them in my brain by remote controlled brain boring drones to further distance me from the Dhamma as part of a JudeoChristan conspiracy to reimpose JC order in the world? Emergency Dhamma Injection! Open a Zolag book at random and post: "The Paali term for faculty is "indriya" meaning strength, governing or controlling principle. Indriyas are "leaders" for the associated dhammas, they are leaders each in their own field. In case of indriya-paccaya the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) has leadership, great control, over the conditiong dhammas (paacayupanna dhammas). (end of injection) phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (4) #125564 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear KC, I agree with you that the usage of stress isn't exactly brilliant , but then there is no consensus understanding about which translation is. However regardless of the translation, my point is uncertainty in respect to 'atha nibbindati dukkhe' , i.e. already with the Pali text. with Metta Dieter ..----- Original Message ----- From: Ken O To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress Dear Deiter I felt the useage of stress does not show the full extent of dukkha. This is something i felt personally a misintepretation of the term dukkha. Dukkha could be very immense pain both physical and mental. Stress does not put the flavour properly, the immensity of dukkha. Stress put a shade of dukkha. You could disagree with me but I felt, translation should alawys show the intended meaning of the dhamma thanks KC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125565 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:22 am Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > Rob E, it sounds like you have formed your opinion based on the opinion of others and not your own experience. I did the same thing before I reviewed all the evidence I wasn't exposed to before. If you thoroughly research this subject, ponder it on your own without outside influence, and still come to the same conclusion- fair enough. But you owe it to yourself to not believe others in this regard (or any regard, really). My opinion is not based on the opinion of others, but on everything I saw and heard, including many first-hand accounts. I saw the buildings go down on television as well, and saw the planes hit. So actually you need to have a contrary theory to what appears on its face to be very obvious, in order to conceive of a conspiracy about how this happened. To me it makes perfect sense - a plane full of fuel hits a building and penetrates it. The fuel explodes and melts the steel. The building goes down. If someone makes up another explanation that is the counter-explanation, and is not the obvious one that appears to the senses and to common sense. Bin Laden took credit for the attack - was he lying? Was he working for the CIA? You really have to get pretty far out to reconstruct the events in another way. As for the Pentagon, hit at the same time, do you think that was blown up from inside as well? It doesn't make a lot of sense. What about the plane that was brought down in Pennsylvania. Was that invented too? It was a coordinated attack with several planes, and those who were flying them are known. They were trained by Al Queda and their plans have been uncovered and show how they carried out the attack. So why the conspiracy theory? My way of looking at evidence, like the advice to the Kalamas, is to believe the obvious unless there is evidence that better explains the known facts. This situation, which was preceded by similar attacks overseas by Al Queda, is fairly self-evident in my view. Keep in mind that I am an adamant critic of the war in Iraq which had nothing to do with 911 at all, and an equally adamant critic of the Bush Administration and just about everything they did. But that doesn't make 911 into a U.S. conspiracy. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (14) #125566 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:27 am Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > That is a satirical account of the impossibility of the official version of events. They are all true. My favorites are how two planes imploded three buildings and that after hitting the Pentagon, the responsible plane simply disappeared (Yes, that is what happened. The French did a study but America didn't). We know people who were in the Pentagon when the plane hit, and who survived the explosion and the fires. The plane was real and you are making stuff up. There are many many witnesses to the buildings being hit and going down in New York. My parents saw the planes hit from their window, as they lived not far from the World Trade Center and had a full view of what happened. Have you ever seen a plane explode? The amount of fuel in a moving plane creates an enormous explosion on impact. It's not the first time that a crashing plane blew up a house or building. Anyway, I will leave it there. As I said, my family and people we know personally saw both events take place. It's not something we read in the news. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (14) #125567 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:29 am Subject: Re: Emergency Dhamma Injection (EDI) : indriya-paccaya epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Dear group > > Lying here unable to sleep, conspiracy theory fever throwing me around my bed. Did I $really$ read those posts or did the government plant them in my brain by remote controlled brain boring drones to further distance me from the Dhamma as part of a JudeoChristan conspiracy to reimpose JC order in the world? Emergency Dhamma Injection! Open a Zolag book at random and post: > > "The Paali term for faculty is "indriya" meaning strength, governing or controlling principle. Indriyas are "leaders" for the associated dhammas, they are leaders each in their own field. In case of indriya-paccaya the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) has leadership, great control, over the conditiong dhammas (paacayupanna dhammas). "Don't trust leaders - watch the parking meters!" - Bob Dylan - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (4) #125568 From: "Christine" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:41 am Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request christine_fo... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello all, A 26 minute video of the 9/11 Attack taken from a neighbouring building: http://www.dangeroustalk.net/a-team/911 with metta and karuna, Chris Reply | Messages in this Topic (14) #125569 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:28 am Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request buddhatrue Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Robert E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > I just wanted to fix a problem with the Star Kids; and while I believe everything is within the Dhamma, too much of this and poor Phil won't get a wink of sleep! :-) This dialogue is starting to seriously veer off-topic. You should write to me off-list if you want to discuss it further. Thanks. Metta, James Reply | Messages in this Topic (14) #125570 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:49 am Subject: Re: Apology to Christine and a Request epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi James. No problem - I agree we've said enough on this. Now on to the "Dhamma" Dhamma! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > I just wanted to fix a problem with the Star Kids; and while I believe everything is within the Dhamma, too much of this and poor Phil won't get a wink of sleep! :-) This dialogue is starting to seriously veer off-topic. You should write to me off-list if you want to discuss it further. Thanks. ====================== Reply | Messages in this Topic (14) #125571 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:24 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125486) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > RE: In conventional life one cannot be clear-headed and mindful while drunk. Drunkenness is a physical factor that affects mental factors. Meditation may be seen as a "worldly" activity that affects mental factors. It is this sort of combination of factors both purely mental and conventional that is more multi-dimensional than only thinking about arising mental factors as though there are no other correspondences or influences on the development of kusala mental states and understanding. > =============== J: I agree that the Buddha did speak of other "correspondences or influences on the development of kusala mental states and understanding". The most frequently mentioned of these seems to be hearing the Dhamma explained in a way that this appropriate for our current circumstances. This is described in a number of ways, including `hearing the True Dhamma' or `the voice of another', and is also reflected in the fact that a person of well-developed understanding is sometimes referred to by the description `bahusutta' (literally, `one who has heard much'). From the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation of MN43: *********************************** "Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another [Pali: parato ghosa] and wise attention [Pali: yoniso manasikara]." Notes: "MA: 'The voice of another' (parato ghosa) is the teaching of beneficial Dhamma. These two conditions are necessary for disciples to arrive at the right view of insight and the right view of the supramundane path." *********************************** (Quoted by Sarah at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/94665) > =============== > RE: I still have never seen a statement quoted from commentary that suggested that we should ignore conventional reality in favor of pure mental factors. > =============== J: I've never suggested that conventional reality should be ignored (in fact, I can't even imagine what that would mean!). What I've said is that only moments of satipatthana constitute the actual development of the path; moments of other (lesser) kusala do not. This is not to say that other (lesser) kusala is to be `ignored'. On the contrary, all kusala is to be developed. But the development of the path, the highest form of kusala, is the kusala that leads to the perfection of all other kusala and to escape from samsara; without the development of satipatthana, other kinds of kusala contribute to continued existence in samsara. > =============== > RE: I think the and/and argument makes much more sense of the teachings in sutta and commentary that I have seen [admittedly very incomplete] than the either/or approach to dhammas vs. conventional realities. When Rob K. asserts that there is a relationship between kusala and abstention from 'conventional murder' that makes more sense to me than Scott's view that murder is seen to not exist when one is enlightened and therefore doesn't carry any kamma, since there are no beings. > =============== J: I don't recall any member of this list expressing the view which you attribute here to Scott (and which contains an inconsistency in that it contemplates an enlightened person deliberately killing another being). In any event, it certainly doesn't represent my own view. > =============== > RE: I have yet to see a single commentarial statement, let alone the "teachings as a whole" declare that we should not be concerned with such conventional behaviors and activities and only be concerned with pure understanding of dhammas. > =============== J: As mentioned above, I've never suggested that the development of other kusala should be ignored, or that other kusala is unimportant; only that we should be clear on the point that it is satipatthana -- and nothing else -- that constitutes the development of the path. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125572 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:49 pm Subject: Survey of Paramattha Dhammas (Part II, Citta) 1 philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Group I have been selecting and posting passages from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanake but have found myself unable to remove passages from the superb survey of the Citta (Part II) because it all ties together so perfectly. I will now begin to post the entire Part II. (As we know, PArt III on Concepts and Realities was published as a separate book, I think Part II would make a great book as well, though too lengthy since it takes up about half of SPD, I guess.) Anyways, here we go: __________________________________ We read in the Kindred Sayings (Part 1, Ch. I.7, The 'Over-Under` Suttas, 2, The Heart [Citta];1979 edition) that a deva asked: Now what is that whereby the world is led? And what is that whereby it [is drawn along]? And what is that above all other things That bringeth everything under its sway? The Buddha answered: [Cittas] are that whereby the world is led, And by... [cittas] it is ever drawn along, And [citta] it is above all other things That bringeth everything under its sway. This sutta shows us the power of citta. Citta is an element that experiences something, a reality that experiences an object. It is the 'chief', the leader in knowing the object that appears. Footnote - Citta is accompanied by cetasikas (mental factors) which also experience the object, but citta is the leader in congnising the object. (end of passage) Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125573 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:14 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: I agree that the Buddha did speak of other "correspondences or influences on the development of kusala mental states and understanding". That is helpful to hear. > The most frequently mentioned of these seems to be hearing the Dhamma explained in a way that this appropriate for our current circumstances. Of course that is very important. ... > J: I've never suggested that conventional reality should be ignored (in fact, I can't even imagine what that would mean!). What I've said is that only moments of satipatthana constitute the actual development of the path; moments of other (lesser) kusala do not. I agree. I guess the unresolved question is whether the other "conventional" factors that are often discussed, such as right action, right speech, etc., are supportive conditions for the development of satipatthana, as I think they are, or whether they are just "general kusala" with no real affect on understanding. > This is not to say that other (lesser) kusala is to be `ignored'. On the contrary, all kusala is to be developed. But the development of the path, the highest form of kusala, is the kusala that leads to the perfection of all other kusala and to escape from samsara; without the development of satipatthana, other kinds of kusala contribute to continued existence in samsara. I think that we agree that without satipatthana, the rest comes to not much, or at least not enough. > > =============== > > RE: I think the and/and argument makes much more sense of the teachings in sutta and commentary that I have seen [admittedly very incomplete] than the either/or approach to dhammas vs. conventional realities. When Rob K. asserts that there is a relationship between kusala and abstention from 'conventional murder' that makes more sense to me than Scott's view that murder is seen to not exist when one is enlightened and therefore doesn't carry any kamma, since there are no beings. > > =============== > > J: I don't recall any member of this list expressing the view which you attribute here to Scott (and which contains an inconsistency in that it contemplates an enlightened person deliberately killing another being). I'm pretty sure I did not misinterpret his view. He said that in the story of the blind monk who had no negative kamma for stepping on the caterpillars, that the reason he had no blame for killing the caterpillars is that he was enlightened and knew that there were no beings that could be killed. Conclusion: stepping on caterpillars is cool if you're enlightened. > In any event, it certainly doesn't represent my own view. Thanks for making that clear. I would not think that was your view. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125574 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:24 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah, Thanks for explaining this to me again. -------- <. . . > > S: <. . .> The eye-sense similarly must have arisen before the eye-door process cittas arise to experience visible object. Without the eye-sense - the door through which they all experience the object - there could be no experiencing of visible object. So, it remains the door, an ayatana for the whole process, even though it is only the base or support for the seeing consciousness itself. (A tricky area). Again it falls away at the end of the process, max 17 cittas. -------- KH: I was forgetting that `sense base' and `sense door' were essentially the same thing. Otherwise I would have realised that a sense base must always last for the full number of cittas arising at that door. One of the tricky areas is when there are no rupas, isn't it? In the arupa realm I think the bhavanga citta becomes the base/door of mind consciousness. I might have got that wrong too, but that's where I got the impression that a sense door could have been some kind of nama. --------- <. . .> S: I think neither of those. If the rupa involved is too far gone by the time the arrest bhavanga citta arises, there cannot be a full sense door process for obvious reasons. This doesn't mean that the rupa was not strong, just that it was experienced too late. Sometimes also, there are no tadarammana cittas at the end of the process. --------- KH: Now that you mention it I am beginning to remember that too. But I wonder why it was "experienced too late." . . . This is your lucky day! After a two-day delay, during which I was suffering from a head cold (not a good thing on holidays), I reread my email and deleted a long paragraph of uninformed theorising. So you won't have to wade through my explanations of sense door processes that begin too late. ---------------- >> KH: My theory was <. . .> >> So why would we assume the sense base rupas last 17 moments? >> > S: Maybe because they do!! ------- KH: :-) Yes, well, I am beginning to see that now! ----------- <. . .> > S: As Nina wrote in a recent message in the Vism series: "When a sense object impinges on a sensebase, a complete sense-door process of cittas can experience that object which has not fallen away. The cittas of a complete sense-door process and the preceding bhavanga-cittas are seventeen in number. Since ruupa lasts seventeen moments of citta it can be experienced by the cittas of a sense-door process. After it has just fallen away it is experienced through the mind-door." ----------- KH: That's clear thank you. Although just to make sure: when Nina said the cittas of a complete sense-door process "and" the preceding bhavanga-cittas were seventeen in number, she meant "and" in the sense of "including" didn't she? Otherwise I am back where I started. :-) Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125575 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:19 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125573) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: I agree. I guess the unresolved question is whether the other "conventional" factors that are often discussed, such as right action, right speech, etc., are supportive conditions for the development of satipatthana, as I think they are, or whether they are just "general kusala" with no real affect on understanding. > =============== J: Given that these other factors are mentioned in the context of the Noble Eightfold Path, they must be relevant to the development of satipatthana. However, we disagree on the question of whether they are "conventional" factors or are mental factors that accompany the moment of path consciousness. > =============== > RE: I think that we agree that without satipatthana, the rest comes to not much, or at least not enough. > =============== J: Quite so. But 'the rest' is still very important to develop. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125576 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, S: Such understanding has to develop gradually. For example, the 1st NT refers to the unsatisfactory nature of impermanent, conditioned dhammas. So by beginning to understanding seeing, visible object, other realities now, there is the beginning of understanding the truths, the beginning of overcoming ignorance. The first vipassana nana is the clear comprehension of namas and rupas. It has to begin now, D: yes, it has to begin with mindfulness , the first of the 7 links to enlightenment. ... (D:> To understand the reality (the All) now one needs to have established the foundation of mindfulness (Satipatthana) .. and to understand what is beyond the All, one practises Jhana. I.e. the 7th and 8th step as part of the (sila-)-samadhi training are the means to develop understanding (panna) ... S: At a moment of seeing, the experiencing of visible object is "All" that exist at that moment. Satipatthana has to develop now when there has been the clear understanding of present realities. To realise the unconditioned dhamma, the only way is the development of satipatthana, this is the Path. D: I wonder whether there is only a difference how to say it .. The understanding of present realities , dhammas or phenomena of the 6 senses media (the All) needs the framework of what/where to pay attention to , i.e. in respect to body ,feeling,mind and mindobjects. This means to train oneself by contemplation of the foundation as laid down by the Maha Satipatthana sutta , Abhidhamma enhences the base , providing more details. ... > > D.O. can be understood to refer to lifetimes (samsara) and to the process going on here and now.. > The chain of D.O. is not interrupted ..when there is death there is birth , at least until the chain is not broken. > To use a metaphor with cards :game over, the cards are newly shuffled ..starting again with different cards but with the same system..> > I like to emphasise the misunderstanding that avijja and sankhara ( first and second ) has been finalized / belong to the previous life , they belong to inumerable previous moments .. we possibly agree on that.. (?) .... S: Avijja and sankhara accumulated in past lifetimes conditioned birth and subsequent vipaka cittas during this life-time. Avijja and sankhara arising now, accumulating now will condition further kamma and further results, vipaka, in future, including future births. D: there is no real interruption of samsara , only that 'new cards ' meet the history (avijja sankhara) S:There are 3 rounds of vipaka cittas, kusala/akusala cittas and kamma....round and round and round. D: why 3 rounds ? kamma is inheritated and its fruits may condition kusala/akusala citta depending on opportunity , creating new kamma in our wandering (samsara) with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125577 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter  I give you some write up in Abhidhamam to describe the meaning of suffering. It also explains why noble one experience bodily pain  Dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion para 446  446. Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of expounding the Noble truth of suffering; for this suffering is manifold and of various kinds, that is to say ; the suffering as suffering, the suffering in change, the suffering in formations, concealed suffering, exposed suffering, figurative suffering (pariyaaya), literal suffering.  447. Herein bodily and mental painful feeling are called "suffering as suffering" because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called "suffering in change" because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change.  Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called “suffering in formations” because of being oppressed by rise and fall. But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called “suffering of the formations”, by their being included in the Truth of Suffering.  448.   Such bodily and mental afflictions as earache, toothache, fever born of lust, fever born of hate, etc are called “concealed suffering” because they can only be known by questioning, and because the attack is not openly evident: they are also called “unevident suffering”. Afflictions produced by the 32 tortures and so on is called “exposed suffering”. Except for suffering as suffering, the rest come down in the Dukkhasaccavibha.nga (Vbh 99). Also all beginning birth are called “figurative suffering” because they are the basis of one or another kind of suffering, but it is “suffering as suffering” that is called “literal suffering”   <>  SN 36.6 Sallatha Sutta  Cheers KC  >________________________________ >From: Dieter Moeller >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wednesday, 18 July 2012, 2:55 >Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress > > > >Dear KC, > >I agree with you that the usage of stress isn't exactly brilliant , but then there is no consensus understanding about which translation is. >However regardless of the translation, my point is uncertainty in respect to 'atha nibbindati dukkhe' , i.e. already with the Pali text. > >with Metta Dieter > >..----- Original Message ----- >From: Ken O >To: mailto:dhammastudygroup%40yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:28 PM >Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress > >Dear Deiter > >I felt the useage of stress does not show the full extent of dukkha. This is something i felt personally a misintepretation of the term dukkha. Dukkha could be very immense pain both physical and mental. Stress does not put the flavour properly, the immensity of dukkha. Stress put a shade of dukkha. > >You could disagree with me but I felt, translation should alawys show the intended meaning of the dhamma > >thanks >KC > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125578 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter  I felt this is a good sutta extracts that explain the intensity of suffering  <<"What is grief? It is the grief, sorrow, sorrowfulness, the state of being sorry, inward sorrow, inward intense sorrow visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called grief. "What is lamentation? It is the crying, the wailing, the act of crying, the act of wailing, the state of crying, the state of wailing of one visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called lamentation. "What is suffering? It is bodily suffering, bodily unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by bodily contact. This is called suffering. "What is misery? It is mental suffering, unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by mental contact. This is called misery. "What is despair? It is despondency, despair, the state of despondency, the state of despair of one visited by some calamity or other. This is called despair. >> Majjhima Nikaya 141 Saccavibhanga Sutta   KC >________________________________ >From: Dieter Moeller >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wednesday, 18 July 2012, 2:55 >Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress > > > >Dear KC, > >I agree with you that the usage of stress isn't exactly brilliant , but then there is no consensus understanding about which translation is. >However regardless of the translation, my point is uncertainty in respect to 'atha nibbindati dukkhe' , i.e. already with the Pali text. > >with Metta Dieter > >..----- Original Message ----- >From: Ken O >To: mailto:dhammastudygroup%40yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:28 PM >Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress > >Dear Deiter > >I felt the useage of stress does not show the full extent of dukkha. This is something i felt personally a misintepretation of the term dukkha. Dukkha could be very immense pain both physical and mental. Stress does not put the flavour properly, the immensity of dukkha. Stress put a shade of dukkha. > >You could disagree with me but I felt, translation should alawys show the intended meaning of the dhamma > >thanks >KC > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125579 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:42 pm Subject: Re: Emergency Dhamma Injection (EDI) : indriya-paccaya philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi again all (long p.s to James) Correction, though hardly necessary, more like a typo. the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) has leadership, great control, over the conditiong dhammas (paacayupanna dhammas). should be "over the conditioned dhammas.. But great to reflect that there are conditioning dhammas, and conditioned dhammas, no self in control of things. Anatta. Phil p.s actually James, I don't think the conspiracy theories are completely nuts, and I agree it's very healthy to question what we are told. You wouldn't believe the way the Japanese government covers up re the aftermath of the Fukushima accident. But I really dislike the way the Kalama Sutta is used by everyone in such a primitive way to emphasize the value of having your own opinion. Most of what is written at DSG is people's opinion, I have a VERY LOW opinion of people's opinions about Dhamma and think they mislead people in the name of Free Inquiry and Discover For Yourself. Our understanding is pathetically feeble, we should consume texts and reflect on them, receptively, doubting any idea that comes up on our own, assuming from the beginning that it is rooted in lobha and moha, almost inevitably. Perhaps some very rare moments of beginning to understand seeing now, hearing now, but understanding things like D.O. Ha, forget it amigo, dream on, hunger on! That must sound very passive and hopeless, but I get my empowerment elsewhere. I think Dhamma is much, much deeper and subtler than it is made out to be by people on the internet, except of course for people who understand correctly how subtle and deep and prone to self-rooted practices it is, people who listen to you know who! Thanks James, always nice touching bases with you. Oh, guess what, we have a lemon tree that just started flowering and his name is Sebastian! I thought I took it from Brideshead Revisited and the great gay character named Sebastian, but I think that's your boyfriend's name, isn't it? I'll get Naomi to put a picture of flowering Sebastian on Facebook. If that's *not* his name, never mind! Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (4) #125580 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:56 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125504) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. Pt. 2. > > > > Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > > > =============== > > > > J: Happy to take that statement of RobK's as a starting point. What do you see as its significance? > > RE: It shows a relationship between kusala dhammas and conventional actions. Kusala mental states lead to less murder. > =============== J: I'm not sure just what that statement ("more kusala cittas should lead to less murder") means. Less murder by whom? How is "less murder" known? Perhaps it means something like, "as more kusala is developed (by a given individual), there will be more deeds performed (by that individual) that are accompanied by kusala and fewer deeds that are accompanied by akusala". That may be generally so, but it does not show a particular relationship between dhammas and conventional actions. The Visuddhimagga (Ch XXIII) gives, as the first among the `benefits in developing understanding', the removal of various defilements. It explains this as follows: "2. Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This starts with the delimitation of mentality-materiality. Then one of the benefits of the supramundane development of understanding is the removal, at the path moment, of the various defilements beginning with the fetters." Note that the first defilement to be removed is wrong view, and that this starts with understanding the difference between nama and rupa. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125581 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:32 pm Subject: Dhamma trip to Poland sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, The trip to Poland by Ajahn Sujin and friends has now been confirmed for 5th - 15th September. Lukas has arranged for the group from overseas (including a large group of Thai friends) to stay in the same good and relaxing hotel in the lakes area of Poland. He's also arranging very cheap nearby accommodation for anyone on a tight budget. It really will be a wonderful opportunity for lots of informal discussions (and a few more formal ones) for anyone who can join. I'm sure it'll also be a lot of fun as well. Many of the Polish friends joining will have very different ideas about Buddhism. From DSG, apart from ourselves, Alberto is joining from Italy, Ann is coming from Canada.....Lukas of course (no longer talking about problems as he is kept really busy making all the bookings and arrangements:-)). So if anyone else could possibly join us, pls do consider it and let us know. You won't regret it at all and no need to agree with Ajahn Sujin or anyone else on anything! It's a very rare trip to the West by Ajahn Sujin. Metta Sarah ===== [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125582 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:37 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma trip to Poland szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, It would be so nice if you all could join us in Poland. I am happy to meet you. We discussed Dhamma here for quite a long time. So I would like to see u now :D And discuss Dhamma. I feel a bit regret that Nina cannot come. She is one of our biggest Dhamma friends, and she helped me so much. Today I was reading her book Abhidhamma in daily life, Chapter One to Luraya on skype. This was so helpful for both of us to be reminded on realities. I would like to meet Nina so much, here in Poland. I am still so happy that Acharn really comes. I was always listening to her but I never saw her. This is great gift from her that she decided to come and share a Dhamma with all of us. I would like to pay respect for her, and assit her here as much as I can. I also want to study Dhamma more nowadays, to show my gratitude and greatfulness for her teachings, that helped me so much to erdadicate a lot of my suffering. I hope that when I meet her my saddha will grow more and more. It's so suportive that Alberto, Ann, Sarah, Jon and other friends also come. Best wishes Lukas > The trip to Poland by Ajahn Sujin and friends has now been confirmed for 5th - 15th September. > > Lukas has arranged for the group from overseas (including a large group of Thai friends) to stay in the same good and relaxing hotel in the lakes area of Poland. He's also arranging very cheap nearby accommodation for anyone on a tight budget. > > It really will be a wonderful opportunity for lots of informal discussions (and a few more formal ones) for anyone who can join. I'm sure it'll also be a lot of fun as well. Many of the Polish friends joining will have very different ideas about Buddhism. > > From DSG, apart from ourselves, Alberto is joining from Italy, Ann is coming from Canada.....Lukas of course (no longer talking about problems as he is kept really busy making all the bookings and arrangements:-)). > > So if anyone else could possibly join us, pls do consider it and let us know. You won't regret it at all and no need to agree with Ajahn Sujin or anyone else on anything! It's a very rare trip to the West by Ajahn Sujin. Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125583 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:25 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma trip to Poland philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Lukas I am really proud of you, and I celebrate your kusala. Of course the main gratitude goes to A. Sujin, but it's so great the way "your" kusala cittas have made this happen! Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125584 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:57 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > (125573) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > RE: I agree. I guess the unresolved question is whether the other "conventional" factors that are often discussed, such as right action, right speech, etc., are supportive conditions for the development of satipatthana, as I think they are, or whether they are just "general kusala" with no real affect on understanding. > > =============== > > J: Given that these other factors are mentioned in the context of the Noble Eightfold Path, they must be relevant to the development of satipatthana. Yes, I think this is a good point of agreement. > However, we disagree on the question of whether they are "conventional" factors or are mental factors that accompany the moment of path consciousness. Well the way I look at it, given the agreed-upon fact that without kusala mental factors, there is no kusala, is that certain sorts of activities 'in the world' as it were, are of importance and do tend to promote kusala, but cannot on their own create kusala. I also think that certain conventional activities will tend to create akusala, and some of them cannot be "saved" by the theoretical accompaniment of kusala mental factors, since kusala cannot accompany such activities. So I believe that if one is indeed a butcher who slaughters chickens for a living, that Buddha would say that this person cannot develop kusala at the moment of slaughtering a chicken and that they are instead developing negative kamma at those moments, and so that form of livelihood is working *against* the path, rather than being neutral or insignificant. That's an example, the type of example I have in mind, of "conventional activities" supporting or not supporting the path. But if one were to break down such activities, one would likely see that the rupas involved in slaughtering chickens, and going along merrily producing such rupas, can only arise with ignorance or other akusala mental factors influencing the activity, or the person would not be doing that - ignorance at the very least. So I think such an activity is an expression of the kusala or akusala factors arising and being perpetuated by the tendencies and accumulations of that person's cittas. I don't know if you can accord with such a view or not, but that's the way I explain it at present to myself. One cannot commit murder while developing kusala mental factors. Could one have an epiphany moment where one sees the akusala factors that cause/accompany killing as merely arising cetasikas and have a path-development moment? I think so. But I also think the accumulations of someone who kills makes it unlikely that such a moment will develop any time soon. So that's my take on "conventional" reality and the path. In addition, an akusala mental factor accompanying an act of charity or generosity will "spoil the broth" and make such a nice-seeming activity akusala because of the mental factors. As you and the Buddha would say, the mental factors "lead" the other factors, and they can ruin outward-seeming kusala if they are akusala. > > =============== > > RE: I think that we agree that without satipatthana, the rest comes to not much, or at least not enough. > > =============== > > J: Quite so. But 'the rest' is still very important to develop. Uh-oh: "magic moment" alert: I think we agree! :-))) Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125585 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:51 am Subject: Re: Emergency Dhamma Injection (EDI) : indriya-paccaya buddhatrue Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > p.s actually James, I don't think the conspiracy theories are completely nuts, and I agree it's very healthy to question what we are told. You wouldn't believe the way the Japanese government covers up re the aftermath of the Fukushima accident. James: Of course they aren't completely nuts. Conspiracies and cover-ups are always going to be perpetuated by humans who suffer from the three poisons. Conspiracies even go back to the Buddha's time and shortly thereafter. As you know, I am also of the opinion that the Theravada Shangha, with the help of Buddhaghosa, were involved in a conspiracy to present the Abhidhamma as a teaching of the Buddha (but I won't go into that anymore :-). But I really dislike the way the Kalama Sutta is used by everyone in such a primitive way to emphasize the value of having your own opinion. James: Yes, I agree. The Kalama Sutta is about knowing something directly for one's self. It is about knowing the "truth" for one's self, not just having an opinion. Most of what is written at DSG is people's opinion, I have a VERY LOW opinion of people's opinions about Dhamma and think they mislead people in the name of Free Inquiry and Discover For Yourself. James: Well, I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with having a certain "opinion" about a thorny point of Dhamma, and presenting it as such. The problem is when people present their "opinion" as "truth". Our understanding is pathetically feeble, we should consume texts and reflect on them, receptively, doubting any idea that comes up on our own, assuming from the beginning that it is rooted in lobha and moha, almost inevitably. James: Well, I wouldn't go that far! In the Kalama Sutta the Buddha clearly believes that people have the innate ability to choose right from wrong. If we doubt everything we think and experience then we will never get anywhere. The point is that you have to depend on your own experience and not be "convinced" by others to think a certain way. Perhaps some very rare moments of beginning to understand seeing now, hearing now, but understanding things like D.O. Ha, forget it amigo, dream on, hunger on! > James: No one will understand DO until they are enlightened. The Buddha said as much. > That must sound very passive and hopeless, but I get my empowerment elsewhere. I think Dhamma is much, much deeper and subtler than it is made out to be by people on the internet, except of course for people who understand correctly how subtle and deep and prone to self-rooted practices it is, people who listen to you know who! > > Thanks James, always nice touching bases with you. Oh, guess what, we have a lemon tree that just started flowering and his name is Sebastian! I thought I took it from Brideshead Revisited and the great gay character named Sebastian, but I think that's your boyfriend's name, isn't it? I'll get Naomi to put a picture of flowering Sebastian on Facebook. If that's *not* his name, never mind! > James: Yes, that is his name. But I have permanently quit Facebook (which is a little complicated to do, BTW). I didn't like how I would get e-mails all the time about "This is what you have been missing on Facebook". That's just too damn pushy for me!! :-) . > Phil > Metta, James Reply | Messages in this Topic (4) #125586 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:03 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > > > > =============== > > > > > > J: Happy to take that statement of RobK's as a starting point. What do you see as its significance? > > > > RE: It shows a relationship between kusala dhammas and conventional actions. Kusala mental states lead to less murder. > > =============== > > J: I'm not sure just what that statement ("more kusala cittas should lead to less murder") means. Less murder by whom? How is "less murder" known? > > Perhaps it means something like, "as more kusala is developed (by a given individual), there will be more deeds performed (by that individual) that are accompanied by kusala and fewer deeds that are accompanied by akusala". It can't just be "accompanied by" if in fact certain acts cannot take place with kusala - it's a little more causal than that I think. > That may be generally so, but it does not show a particular relationship between dhammas and conventional actions. Well so far you have not taken up my "proof" that this is the case - that murder cannot arise in the face of kusala. That is a particular relationship between kusala and murder. Otherwise I think we'd have to say that we can have a murder accompanied by kusala, which is clearly absurd. If that is indeed absurd, there is a particular relationship right there I think. Why avoid the obvious? > The Visuddhimagga (Ch XXIII) gives, as the first among the `benefits in developing understanding', the removal of various defilements. It explains this as follows: > > "2. Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This starts with the delimitation of mentality-materiality. Then one of the benefits of the supramundane development of understanding is the removal, at the path moment, of the various defilements beginning with the fetters." > > Note that the first defilement to be removed is wrong view, and that this starts with understanding the difference between nama and rupa. I think I am a little confused as to how this applies to the current discussion. Could you make it a little more clear for me? Thanks, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125587 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:00 am Subject: Dhamma Wasteland epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Everyone. Is it really true that no one has posted [other than me] for the last 30 hours or so? Help, where is everyone? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125588 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, Pt & all, >________________________________ > From: Robert E >Is it really true that no one has posted [other than me] for the last 30 hours or so? Help, where is everyone? ..... S: OK, Ok, Ok...... we're on our way to the rescue! Nina will be back soon, I'm sure. News: The Dhamma discussions in Poland are now 9th - 17th Sept. Hoping it's fixed now as we'll be buying our non-refundable tickets this weekend. Poor Alberto is having to change his..... Still trying to persuade others like Vince & Dieter who are already in Europe to come.... Dieter, we have another old Dhamma friend, Gabi, coming from Germany too..... Americans, it's quicker and easier for you to come from the States than for us from Asia.... A real great opportunity if you can join! Other news: Pt came over to visit us (in Sydney) a couple of days ago. He's very busy with work, so I won't hold breath waiting for him to write up his dhamma qus. But talking of breath, we did have some discussions about some difficult issues: a) when panna arises with the citta which has breath as object, what exactly does the panna know (as opposed to subsequent cittas), b) when dhammas (realities) are the object of cittas in the mind-door process without panna.....now I forget the qu.... c) my qu to Pt - why does someone who understands that any object at all can be object of satipatthana focus on breath. His answer related to the pleasant feeling which is realises is attachment, but also the "clarity" - the joy of having a break from all that discursive thinking..... hmmm d) more discussion on verbal and non-verbal thinking......if it's not seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or touching, it's thinking of concepts, no matter one calls it verbal or non-verbal....e) maybe more talk on dhammas and situations... and some practical dhamma and sorting out domestic issues, trying to encourage Pt to consider Poland too.... difficult for people given the short notice and other responsibilities, I know. What else, Jon & Pt? I didn't make notes..... can you check those cryptic notes on the Galaxy tab, Pt? Also, Pt, thanks so much for driving us round to the paint shop and for always being so very considerate. We love having you visit us. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125589 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:39 am Subject: Alberto's packing for the trip to Poland sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, A chat about basic packing for a Dhamma trip between 2 Dhamma friends, Lukas & Alberto: L: > If u have Patthana in English u can take it with u. or Any other commentaries and tipitaka books. Especially if u have Milindhapannha, Dhathhu katha? This is good to have it to read it also to Acharn at Dhamma discussions. I d have a lot of questions to her, especially according to Milindhapannha. A:> I don't have Patthana in English, but I have Dhathukatha, I'l bring that. Sukin kindly gave it to me last summer in Bangkok, he also gave me the Expositor (Atthasalini), of which I already had a copy which I'll give you; and also the Book of analysis (Vibhanga) and its commentaries (Dispeller of Delusion); and the Path of Discriminations (Patisambhidamagga); also the commentary to the Udana. You can chose one of these last four to take along with me (I'm allowed only 10 kilos baggage on the plane) and which I would gladly lend you until you visit me in Italy :-) >I haven't looked properly into Milindapanha yet. At the moment I'm trying to look into some later commentaries of the Abhidhamma on CSCD, like Namarupapariccheda, about the same period of the Abhidhammatasangaha. But I think that all the books in the tipitaka are the same, in the sense that all of them explain the same dhammas: citta, 52 cetasika, 28 rupas and nibbana, the words may sound different but the meaning is just the same. **** Metta Sarah p.s Lukas & Alberto, do share any more packing discussions with us all here.....:-)) Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125590 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in speculative philosophy sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > What is this body that breaks up? It is not a single rupa, is it? > ... > S: The "break-up of the body" refers to the end of this life-time, to > death (cuti citta) and the end of the rupas conditioned by the past kamma which > has conditioned the kamma-produced rupas of this life-time, such as the > life-faculty, masculinity/femininity, senses, heart-base and so on. So "body" > is a conventional term referring to a large array of dhammas. > ----------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Yes. An "array" is a collection/aggregate/group/complex of > interrelated phenomena, but not a single thing and having no existence independent of > its components. But it is certainly not nothing at all. > -------------------------------------------------------- .... S: However dhammas are described, there are only names and rupas. At the end of a life-time, just like now, there are only ever the arising and falling away of different dhammas. There is nothing else at all. This is all that khandhas are - different names and rupas arising, falling, never the same ones to arise again. I think we agree on this. ... > And > > if it breaks up, is it not, thus, impermanent? > ... > S: The namas and rupas involved are impermanent. It is these dhammas which > arise and fall away. There is no "body", no "whole" apart from these > dhammas. > --------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > That is true. But the body/aggregate of rupas is still ever-changing > in dependence on the arising and ceasing of its components, and it breaks up > at death in dependence on the dispersal and cessation of its component > rupas. > ----------------------------------------------------------- S: The "body of rupas" are just the rupas. Each rupa arises in dependence of different conditions. There is no "whole". ... > S: What we take for a "body" is just thought about through the mind door. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > HCW: > That is true, but it does not mean that there is no basis for that in > the relations among the component rupas. > ------------------------------------------------------------ S: True. There are reasons why the computer is not taken for 'body' while the arm is, usually with no understanding of dhammas. ... > > S: Agreed. "Fictions and concepts don't break up". Rupas do, no matter how > they are referred to. In the Buddha's case, without any misunderstanding, > without any idea that what is commonly taken for a body actually exists. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > HCW: > A rupa ceases but does not "break up". Only collections of phenomena > break up. > -------------------------------------------------------------- S: Here, we disagree. When the Buddha refers to the 'break up' of the 'body' he is referring to the arising and falling away of dhammas, in particular to death cittas and particular rupas not arising anymore in what is taken for 'this body'. At death, there are no more conditions for kamma, citta and nutriment-produced rupas to arise anymore in this life-time, but temperature produced rupas continue to arise and fall away for some time. So still just different dhammas arising and falling away by conditions.... Meanwhile, of course, cittas have continued to arise by kamma and other conditions in a new plane or 'life'. Metta Sarah ======= Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125591 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:34 pm Subject: Re: Fear sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alberto, Vince & all. You had a very good discussion on fear. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alberto" wrote: >A: I've looked up the sutta (MN 4). > The Buddha is replying to a local brahmin asking about the dangers of being seized by fear while doing (miccha) samadhi meditation in woods or wild places without (samma) samadhi. > > The Buddha says that any bhikkhu or samana going to such a place for such a purpose without being endowed with a pure bodily, verbal and mental conduct is bound to incur in such drawbacks, even to point of mental derangement. > While a bhikkhu or samana endowed with those qualities (which include a pure mental conduct, i.e. siilaa isn't enough to develop samatha/samma samadhi, panna is also required, as is stated in one of the paragraph that follows) isn't carried away by those fears and subdues them. .... S: Just quoting from TB's translation: " "But, Master Gotama, it's not easy to endure isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. It's not easy to maintain seclusion, not easy to enjoy being alone. The forests, as it were, plunder the mind of a monk who has not attained concentration." "Yes, brahman, so it is. It's not easy to endure isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. It's not easy to maintain seclusion, not easy to enjoy being alone. The forests, as it were, plunder the mind of a monk who has not attained concentration. Before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me as well: 'It's not easy to maintain seclusion, not easy to enjoy being alone. The forests, as it were, plunder the mind of a monk who has not attained concentration.' " ... >A: There is also an advanced vipassana stage which involves fear, udhayabbhaya nana, but this of course is kusala (i.e. unpleasant feeling don't arise then) and refers to the dukkha characteristic of all conditioned realities experienced at that stage of the path, giving a sense of urgency towards nibbana, the unconditioned reality. ... S: Exactly so. Seeing the 'fearful' unsatisfactory nature of all conditioned dhammas which arise and fall away - not worth clinging to at all. Great to see you sharing Dhamma again, Alberto! Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125592 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] samaadhi. Was: Out of our hands? sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Returning to the Samaadhisutta: > > > > > N: The commentary I checked in Thai and it is quite interesting. > > > Samaadhi: the fact that citta has only one object. The Buddha saw > > > someone who was declining from having (only) one object. When the > > > citta has one object, the kammathaana (object of meditation) needs a > > > wetnurse, therefore the Buddha preached this sutta. > > > ----- > > > As to wetnurse, the Pali "phaati" is increase, success, advantage, > profit, not wetnurse. I asked advice on Jim's Palistudy list, and > Ven. Bodhi answered me that this is a confusion with a similar word > in Thai. Thus, samaadhi makes the kammathaana succesful. Anyway, we > need the help of samaadhi. > ------ S: I'm glad you clarified. I'd wondered what a 'wet-nurse' had to do with it at all! Without samadhi, the object couldn't be experienced. ... > > > N: The sutta indicates that one object: the eye, seeing, > > eyecontact etc. > > > Now it seems that there are several objects at the same time: it > seems we see and hear or see and define what we see at the same time. > When there is right awareness, right understanding and right > concentration, only one object presents itself, no intrusion of any > other object. When visible object presents itself, there is only that > object, no person in the visible object. Samaadhisutta is wonderful > and reminds us of the present object. I am glad you made us pay > attention to it. .... Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (82) #125593 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:04 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125507) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > Pt. 3. > ... > RE: So mental factors "make or break" the action, but still don't substitute for it. If you have lovely mental factors but watch someone being murdered without helping them, that is not kusala, even if the mental factors are great. > =============== J: There can be kusala mental factors arising in the midst of an action that we would regard as an akusala one, and there can be akusala mental factors arising in the course of a `kusala' action. That's why it serves no purpose to try and classify an action by its outward appearance. In the case of the blind monk, it seemed to those observing that he was deliberately treading on insects; but in fact that was not the case. It is impossible to know another's mental factors (and difficult enough to know one's own!). > =============== > > J: 'Right action' is not a matter of the 'right' outward conduct/action. > > RE: In fact it partially is - murder can never be kusala, no matter what. It is a 'wrong action' no matter what the mental factors accompanying it. > =============== J: I'm not sure I follow. `Murder' is defined in terms of the intention to take the other person's life, and if that intention is not present at the appropriate time then it's not murder. > =============== > RE: In fact, both the Buddha and the commentaries speak of the three levels of kamma patha - mental, speech and physical. I think we ignore such itemization at our peril, and I take seriously the idea that all three levels have to line up or you don't have true kusala. If mental factors do not translate into right speech and right action, the kusala is poisoned, and you get akusala kamma patha. > =============== J: Right speech and action are the kusala restraint from wrong speech and action. If the restraint is without kusala, then there's no right speech or action. > =============== > RE: As I'm sure you would agree, the arahant not only has perfected mental factors, but also demonstrates perfectly expressed kusala speech and action. It's not one without the other, though there are those here who choose to emphasize kusala mental factors to the exclusion of all else. I just don't think that is justified by anything I've seen in the actual texts. Do you have a text - and this is not meant rhetorically - that demonstrates directly that I am wrong about this? I would be very anxious to see it. > =============== J: The best I can do for a text at the moment are the following entries from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary (which, with a few notable exceptions, accurately reflects the traditional Theravadan interpretation of the texts): 1. Entry for "kusala" ********************************* 'karmically wholesome' or 'profitable', salutary, morally good, (skillful) ... It is defined in M.9 as the 10 wholesome courses of action (s. kammapatha). In psychological terms, 'karmically wholesome' are all those karmical volitions (kamma-cetanaa) and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, which are accompanied by 2 or 3 wholesome roots (muula), i.e. by greedlessness (alobha) and hatelessness (adosa), and in some cases also by non-delusion (amoha: wisdom, understanding). Such states of consciousness are regarded as 'karmically wholesome' as they are causes of favourable karma results and contain the seeds of a happy destiny or rebirth. From this explanation, two facts should be noted: (1) it is volition that makes a state of consciousness, or an act, 'good' or 'bad'; (2) the moral criterion in Buddhism is the presence or absence of the 3 wholesome or moral roots. ********************************* Note particularly that "it is volition that makes a state of consciousness, or an act, 'good' or 'bad'", and "the moral criterion in Buddhism is the presence or absence of the 3 wholesome or moral roots". 2. Entry for "muula" ********************************* 'roots', also called hetu, are those conditions which through their presence determine the actual moral quality of a volitional state (cetanaa), and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, in other words, the quality of karma. There are 6 such roots, 3 karmically wholesome and 3 unwholesome roots, viz.,: greed, hate, delusion (lobha, dosa, moha), and greedlessness, hatelessness, undeludedness (alobha, adosa, amoha). ********************************* The entry for `muula' also contains a sutta passage that is relevant: "Killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, lying, tale-bearing, harsh language, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill-will and wrong views (s. kammapatha), these things are due either to greed, or hate, or delusion" (A.X.174). So deeds are unwholesome by virtue of being accompanied by (and to the extent that they are accompanied by) one or more of the akusala roots. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125594 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:16 pm Subject: More on kusala/akusala and actions (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125507) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: I am sure we can find many, many quotes where the Buddha talks about how to live and act in the conventional world, for instance large portions of the vinaya, as well as many many suttas, and the commentaries discuss correct behavior and speech as well, not just dhammas. Can you likewise show quotes that demonstrate that the only thing of importance is the development of the understanding of dhammas in the paramatha sense, and not in the sense of how one lives and acts in the world? > =============== J: I think (hope!) we sorted this point out in another thread. All kusala is important; but only kusala of the level of satipatthana actually constitutes the development of the path. > =============== > RE: In fact, I would say that the way we act conventionally does indeed reflect the mental factors that are influencing our behavior. It would seem strange if we supposed that these two levels of reality were disparate - that for instance we could be experiencing many moments of metta while cursing and screaming and killing people in the "conventional" world. Obviously that does not take place, and for good reason - they just don't go together. > =============== J: It is of course common sense to say that a person is unlikely to be having moments of metta while screaming and cursing at someone. But it's not a principle of Dhamma that there can be no kusala at such times. For example, awareness of the akusala at such a time is quite possible (if awareness has previously been developed). And conversely, a person exhibiting great kindness to another may be having strong conceit or wrong view, or may have a self-serving motive in acting that way. There is no hard and fast rule, and it would be a mistake to think that the quality of the citta can be deduced from the outward appearance of the action. > =============== > RE: ... but you have not said anything about Nina's statement. She said that "there is no contradiction between conventional reality and paramatha dhammas," though I may have mistaken a word or two. > =============== J: I too see no contradiction between the conventional world and the world of paramattha dhammas. > =============== > RE: And I would reverse the statement to say that in fact "conventional reality follows paramatha dhammas," and is the imperfect reflection of paramatha dhammas that worldlings experience. > =============== J: Sorry Rob, but I'm not in agreement with you on this point :-)) Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125595 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:42 pm Subject: Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, I was just discussing khandhas with Howard when I heard the following as I ate my lunch: ***** Phil: We were talking yesterday about rupas and I was wondering: are rupas the same here in this beautiful place in the lovely countryside and in a part of the busy city? KS: Doesn't rupa arise and fall away too - each split second? So each one is not the same one at all. Never the same, no matter here or there - just that which has impinged on the eye-sense has arisen and fallen away. P: They're always different, everywhere. KS: Yes, never comes back - each one and that's the meaning of khandha. Khandha passes away, never comes back P: And the khandhas always arise together...? KS: Each one is one khandha. P: OK, khandha doesn't mean like a group of... KS: They arise together, but each one of them is a khandha, not the same one. ***** Metta Sarah ===== [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (6) #125596 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:46 pm Subject: accumulations for watching breath? audio KK 2011 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, As I mentioned, Pt was discussing more on breath with us when he visited. While I ate my lunch just now, I also heard the following: ***** Rob K: One person was saying that someone's got an accumulation to watch TV, but s she's got an accumulation to watch the breath and what I was hinting at was that I think that's a pretty unnatural accumulation to watch the breath, whereas to watch TV is a little more common and ordinary... KS: Is there any understanding of breath so that that person would say that "I'm watching the breath"? It is only the idea, but actually does she know the breath? Sukin: It's so boring, why would someone have the accumulation to watch breath. It's only if they associate it with practice. KS: One is taught. R: She was saying it's not that she thinks breath is anything [special] but just that she has this habit. Just like Sukin enjoys watchig TV, she enjoys watching breath. KS: Like yoga? That is not the understanding of breath. Whatever is not understanding is useless. ***** Metta Sarah ===== [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125597 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:03 pm Subject: Re: notes from Alberto sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alberto (& Lukas) - >A: It may seem that it was the Buddha that had great understanding of dhammas, but one must bear in mind that there is only one paramattha dhamma that can understand all the others, either vipaka, kusala or akusala and abyakata. ... S: Well said. (As you later clarified, abyakata dhammas are all dhammas other than kusala and akusala dhammas - so these include vipaka dhammas.) ... > > It was a paramattha dhamma arising (ad falling away, and then arising just to fall away again...) because of conditions, because of all the parami he had accumulated for aeons, and that his panna wasn't really his or anybody else's. > > The Buddha directly knew that too, and that even panna, with all its powerful and blissful side effects, was just a sankhara dhamma, anicca, dukkha and anatta, and he knew that he was free from them all, either kusala, akusala or abyakata. ... S: Well said - panna leads to detachment and freedom from all conditioned dhammas, including panna itself. The raft. **** > A:> ... I was referring to the third triplet (vipaka dhammas, vipakadhamma dhammas, and navipaka navipakadhamma dhammas). > Also a better translation for vipaka dhammas I think would be dhammas which are resultants, rather then dhammas which are results; since all sankhara dhammas, of all jatis and all rupas as well, are conditioned, i.e. the results of conditions. > While vipakadhamma dhammas are the dhammas which are cause (another meaning of dhamma, as in dhammapatisambhida, understanding of the causes) for vipaka. > Navipaka navipakadhamma dhammas are all the other paramattha dhammas not included in the first two categories. ... S: Pls clarify for me. In the third triplet when it refers to a)vipaka dhammas, b)vipakadhamma dhammas, and c)navipaka navipakadhamma dhammas, are you saying that a) refers to vipaka cittas only ? b) refers to all dhammas which condition/cause vipaka dhammas, i.e. kamma, cetana cetasika only? c) refers to all other dhammas inc. nibbana? Right, literally " dhammas which are not vipaka and not cause of vipaka". I think I've just about got it. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (4) #125598 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:07 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > In case it easn't clear, i mean what you wrote sounds perfect.Thanks for clarifying my clumsy phrasing ... S: thanks. I think it is important to stress that khandha doesn't consist of rupas or kalapas but is in fact a rupa or nama that arises and falls away. Each khandha has characteristics in common with each other khandha of its kind. So each rupa is rupa khandha and so on. Hope the rest of your trip to Sri Lanka was enjoyable and worthwhile. Any chance of either you or Sukin joining the trip to Poland, Rob? Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125599 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:16 pm Subject: Re: notes from Alberto szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alberto, (Sarah) > > A:> ... I was referring to the third triplet (vipaka dhammas, vipakadhamma dhammas, and navipaka navipakadhamma dhammas). > > Also a better translation for vipaka dhammas I think would be dhammas which are resultants, rather then dhammas which are results; since all sankhara dhammas, of all jatis and all rupas as well, are conditioned, i.e. the results of conditions. > > While vipakadhamma dhammas are the dhammas which are cause (another meaning of dhamma, as in dhammapatisambhida, understanding of the causes) for vipaka. > > Navipaka navipakadhamma dhammas are all the other paramattha dhammas not included in the first two categories. L: I always liked to consider this triplet vipaka dhamma, vipakadhamma dhamma, nevavipakanavipakadhamma dhamma as: vipaka dhammas, all vipakas, like seeing, hearing.. vipakadhamma dhammas, only those cittas that may condition a result, have a strenght to conditioned a vipaka. kamma. nevavipakanavipakadhamma dhammas, all the rest paramattha dhammas, also kusala, akusala cittas itself, all those that have now power to conditioned result. cetasikas also included, since they conditioned this cittas and are conditioned by citta whe a propewr time comes, yasmim samaye Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (4) #125600 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:19 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob K, Sukin, > Any chance of either you or Sukin joining the trip to Poland, Rob? L: Robert, Sukin pls come. That would be so great to meet. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125601 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:30 pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 11. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > The monk who has left his home for the "homeless life" has many > opportunities to cultivate impartiality. Laypeople who are bound by > their family life are apt to have preference for their own relatives. > The monk is not bound by such ties and he has the opportunity to > devote himself entirely to the task of helping without any partiality > all people who are ready to listen to the Dhamma. The monk should not > expect any reward for his teaching of Dhamma. Since he is not allowed > to ask for anything he truly leads a life of contentment with little. ... S: True. I'd say we all have many opportunities to cultivate impartiality, no matter the circumstances. Likewise, a monk may also have many preferences too. Of course, what you are referring to are the good reminders about the meaning of the homeless life and the value of the bhikkhu's life properly led. We may think that because of our preferences for relatives and so on, we cannot help others without partiality, but the kilesas of ignorance and attachment arise, conditioned no matter the circumstances, while not eradicated. I remember Ann asking K.Sujin a question about helping her son with Dhamma -- we all ask such questions about helping dear ones -- and her response was to the effect of help those around who are interested to hear and understand the dhamma. Again, "contentment with little" refers to the citta. A monk may be very discontent, even though he has very little materially, whereas a lay person may be very content, no matter the circumstances. Otherwise we end up thinking of a situation again. Helpful to be reminded of the bhikkhu's life, like that of an arahat. Like "heaven and earth" as K.Sujin would say. As always, it all comes back to the citta now... Hope you had a good celebration and walking holiday, Nina. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125602 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:39 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Thanks for helping me to reflect on this topic. > >R: Thank you for some very precise indications of how "space" is used to indicate, not actual spatial locations, but the types of rupic arenas in which certain types of dhammas arise, eg, heart-base, and the ways in which different constituent rupas of a kalapa come together due to conditions, creating a sense of a spatial organization, but not actual objective physical space as we normally think of it. > > As I take your meaning, the extensiveness of space in which there is distance and other relations is missing from the spatiality of kalapas. The space that they contain is only the relationship between the various rupas to each other, and their relationship to the base in which they arise. In other words, there is no objective space in which this takes place, and there is no place to go from there. The space that is created by these relations is confined to the relations themselves. It is 100% local. I hope that is not too far off the mark. .... S: There are just the arising of various rupas in kalapas, separated by other kalapas by space, pariccheda akasa (space) rupa which depends on these kalapas for its arising. Any 'base' such as heart-base, is simply another rupa arising in another kalapa, again separated by akasa rupa from the next kalapa which is separated in this way. We cannot say that in actuality rupas arise in a base or another set of rupas. As you suggest, this kind of space is conditioned/dependent on these various kalapas of rupas. There is also the open space where there are no kalapas of rupas, but let's no go there now:-) Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125603 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Sarah - With respect, this use of 'khandha' is a misuse of language. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/20/2012 11:42:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Friends, I was just discussing khandhas with Howard when I heard the following as I ate my lunch: ***** Phil: We were talking yesterday about rupas and I was wondering: are rupas the same here in this beautiful place in the lovely countryside and in a part of the busy city? KS: Doesn't rupa arise and fall away too - each split second? So each one is not the same one at all. Never the same, no matter here or there - just that which has impinged on the eye-sense has arisen and fallen away. P: They're always different, everywhere. KS: Yes, never comes back - each one and that's the meaning of khandha. Khandha passes away, never comes back P: And the khandhas always arise together...? KS: Each one is one khandha. P: OK, khandha doesn't mean like a group of... KS: They arise together, but each one of them is a khandha, not the same one. ***** Metta [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (6) #125604 From: "Alberto" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:51 pm Subject: Re: notes from Alberto sprlrt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah and Lukas, S: > are you saying that a) refers to vipaka cittas only ? b) refers to all dhammas which condition/cause vipaka dhammas, i.e. kamma, cetana cetasika only? c) refers to all other dhammas inc. nibbana? Right, literally " dhammas which are not vipaka and not cause of vipaka". a: vipaka dhammas, vipaka citta and cetasikas. b: kusala and akusala citta and cetasikas are the cause of vipaka dhammas as kamma paccaya (cetana cetasika only) and as pakatupanissaya paccaya (cetana cetasika again, as well as the others, like lobha, alobha, dosa, adosa, avijja, panna etc.) Kusala dhammas and akusala dhammas too arise by conditions, they are the result of paccayas such as pakatupanissaya (but not kamma). c: kiriya dhammas (i.e. kiriya citta and cetasikas, inc. those of the arahant replacing kusala dhammas, which, unlike kusala dhammas, are not cause for vipaka), all rupas, and nibbana. The Dhammasangani describes this in these terms in the Nikkehepa and Atthakatha sections. The Patthana states that vipaka dhammas are conditioned by pakatupanissaya paccaya as well as by kamma condition. Alberto Reply | Messages in this Topic (4) #125605 From: Lukas Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:33 pm Subject: To Alberto. Dhamma trip to Poland szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alberto, Do u think u could translate the the few frist pages of Patthana from pali? I mean only Paccayuddeso where all 24 kinds conditions are listed, and Paccayaniddeso, where there 24 conditions are exposed in briefly. I found this very deep when I read it in England, having english translation from library. It would be great if we could both read it to Acharn, and ask a questions. The exposition in brief of arammana paccaya is so deep. I found that this Paccayanidesso with description in short of all conditions is so good reminder to read in daily life. Sometimes it is good to have short good reminder, than reading a lot on conditions. It would be a great gift for me also, since I cant read pali and I dont have Patthana in english. In Paccayaniddeso the second kind of conditions arammana paccaya starts. == Arammanapaccayoti: rupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. I think this may means: visible object base(as ayatana) condtions seeing-consciousness and its accompanying dhammas by way of object condition. === So the visible object base is a condition for seeing-consciousness to arise and all 7 cetasikas arising with seeing consciousness by way of object condition. Without visible object seeing could never arise. I think this is great reminder for all of us. We think 'I see', 'my seeing', 'me in seeing'. But this is only a seeing consciousness that arise and perform its function. There is no self anywhere that could make seeing arise. like open ones eyes to see. This is all conditioned. Without the second condition, object condition there would be no seeing. Do we remember that? Without visible object that is ruupa, seeing could never arise. Seeing is conditioned by visible object. Visible object condition seeing right now. No Self anywhere, going to shop, typying on the keybord, walking the park. Just seeing and visible object and the second condition - object condition. I think ruupaayatana is mentioned here, not ruupadhatu to express the meaning of that only visible object conditions the seeing consciousness, and not the eye-sense by way of arammana-paccaya. The color conditions seeing consciousness by way of object condition right now. Just my thoughts. Best wishes Lukas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125606 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello Howard, Sarah, all, >H:With respect, this use of 'khandha' is a misuse of language. You are right. Khandha = group. Khandha is universal, while individual (rupa for example) is a particular, right? With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (6) #125607 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah , you wrote: Still trying to persuade others like Vince & Dieter who are already in Europe to come.... Dieter, we have another old Dhamma friend, Gabi, coming from Germany too..... Americans, it's quicker and easier for you to come from the States than for us from Asia.... A real great opportunity if you can join D: thank you for the kind invitation , Sarah. As much as I would like to meet you and friends in Poland but I am afraid personal reasons will hinder me to do so . However I am looking forward to learn about your Dhamma discussions lateron and of course about your impressions during the -certainly wonderful - trip. B.T.W. I can't remember to have read anything ever from Gabi, is she a dsg member? with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125608 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:14 am Subject: Self-Correction Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Alex (and Sarah & all) - In a message dated 7/21/2012 10:07:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, Sarah, all, >H:With respect, this use of 'khandha' is a misuse of language. You are right. Khandha = group. Khandha is universal, while individual (rupa for example) is a particular, right? --------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, that is the main reading, namely that of mass/bulk/category/group/collection. However, I have seen a secondary meaning given in the PTS dictionary (that I looked up an hour or so ago) that also applies 'khandha' to the *members* of a group. So, that usage is acceptable as well, and I stand corrected on this. (It would not be normal English usage, but we are dealing with meanings of a Pali word, not an English one.) ---------------------------------------------------------- With best wishes, Alex ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125609 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear KC, (all) you wrote: I give you some write up in Abhidhamam to describe the meaning of suffering. It also explains why noble one experience bodily pain Dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion para 446 446. Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of expounding the Noble truth of suffering; for this suffering is manifold and of various kinds, that is to say ; the suffering as suffering, the suffering in change, the suffering in formations, concealed suffering, exposed suffering, figurative suffering (pariyaaya), literal suffering. 447. Herein bodily and mental painful feeling are called "suffering as suffering" because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called "suffering in change" because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change. Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called “suffering in formations” because of being oppressed by rise and fall. But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called “suffering of the formations”, by their being included in the Truth of Suffering. 448. Such bodily and mental afflictions as earache, toothache, fever born of lust, fever born of hate, etc are called “concealed suffering” because they can only be known by questioning, and because the attack is not openly evident: they are also called “unevident suffering”. Afflictions produced by the 32 tortures and so on is called “exposed suffering”. Except for suffering as suffering, the rest come down in the Dukkhasaccavibha.nga (Vbh 99). Also all beginning birth are called “figurative suffering” because they are the basis of one or another kind of suffering, but it is “suffering as suffering” that is called “literal suffering” <> SN 36.6 Sallatha Sutta D: thanks for the quotations, KC , offering food for thoughts. For example what is the difference between the toothache of a commoner and a noble one, besides that the latter endures the pain without "sorrow, grieve or lament; he does not weep weeping his breast and become distraught" (the so called second dart) ?. Mental and bodily pain are stated within the first N.T. , all of these expected to end (third N.T.) .. but then it seems to be only part of it KC: I felt this is a good sutta extracts that explain the intensity of suffering <<"What is grief? It is the grief, sorrow, sorrowfulness, the state of being sorry, inward sorrow, inward intense sorrow visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called grief. "What is lamentation? It is the crying, the wailing, the act of crying, the act of wailing, the state of crying, the state of wailing of one visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called lamentation. "What is suffering? It is bodily suffering, bodily unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by bodily contact. This is called suffering. "What is misery? It is mental suffering, unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by mental contact. This is called misery. "What is despair? It is despondency, despair, the state of despondency, the state of despair of one visited by some calamity or other. This is called despair. >> Majjhima Nikaya 141 Saccavibhanga Sutta D: yes , good extract the issue of suffering , its contemplation and understanding what has been said about it , is - as you may know - a condition for faith in the Dhamma, not by chance mentioned in the place. As you pointed out there is broad scale of intensity , a feeling from simple boredom to agony . However the topic concerns whether there is any need to grow disentchanted with that unpleasantness, as expressed by 'atha nibbindati dukkhe' Dhammapada .. with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125610 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:09 am Subject: Satipatthana 1 - What is the it? ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all  Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary pg 272  30. An establishing (patthana) is that 'sets out' (patitthati). The meaning is that it occurs with the body, etc, as its object, having made its entrance by virtue of taking (these) as ugly, etc. A mindfulness establishing is an establishing that is itself mindfulness. But that establishing is an establishing that is itself mindfulness. But that establishing is said to be fourfold by virtue taking the body, feeling, consciousness, and dhamma as [respectively] ugly, painful, impermanent, and not self, and by virtue of abandoning the distorted perception [of them] as beautiful, pleasant, permanent and self. Hence there are four establishing of mindfulness  1011.  Satipatthãna (‘foundations of mindfulness”): there are three kinds of foundation of mindfulness, (1) the domain of mindfulness (satigocaro), (2) the Master’s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification as regards the entry of the disciples [on the way of practice] (tidhaa pa.tipannesu saavakesu Satthuno pa.tighaanunayaviitivattataa), and (3) mindfulness (sati). 1012.  (1) In the passage beginning: ‘1 shall teach, bhikkhus, the arising and the disappearance of the four foundations of mindfulness listen ... And what, bhikkhus, is the arising of the body? With the arising of nutriment there is the arising of the body’ (S v 184), it is the “domain of mindfulness” that is called mindfulness. Likewise in such passages as: “The body is the establishment (upa.t.thaana), it is not mindfulness.  Mindfulness is both establishment and mindfulness.” (Ps i 177, ii 232), the meaning of that is: “that on which it is founded” (pati.t.thaati) is “foundation” (pa.t.thaana). What is founded? Mindfulness. [Thus] it is “mindfulness’s foundation” (satiyaa [gen.] pa.t.thaana.m) which is the “foundation of mindfulness” (sati- pa.t.thaana). 1013.  Or foundation (pa.t.thaana) means place for [exercising] effort (padhna.t.thaana); [in this sense] it is the “place” (pa.t.thaana) for mindfulness (satiyaa; gen. or dat.) that is the “foundation of mindfulness” (satipa.t.thaana), like the “place for elephants (hatthi.t.thaana), “place for horses” (assa.t.thaana). 1014.  (2) As regards the passage: “There are three foundations of mindfulness which the Noble One cultivates, and cultivating which the Noble One is a master who is worthy to instruct his flock” (M iii 216, 221), here it is the “threefold surpassing by the Master of resentment and gratification as regards the entry of the disciples [on the way]” that is called the “foundation of mindfulness”. The meaning of that is: “foundation” (pa.t.thaana) is because of what should be founded (pa.t.thapetabba); “because of what should be made to occur” is the meaning. Because of what should be made to occur by means of what? By means of mindfulness. So “foundation of mindfulness” (sati pa.t.thaana) is the “foundation by means of mindfulness” (satiyd [instr.] pa.t.thaana.m). 1015.  (3) But in such passages as: “The four foundations of mindfulness being developed and frequently practised perfect the seven enlightenment factors” (S v 329), it is mindfulness itself that is called the “foundation of mindfulness”. The meaning of that is: “what founds” (pati.t.thaati) is “foundation” (pa.t.thaana); it is established (upa.t.thaati); “having gone down into, entered into, it proceeds” is the meaning. [Thus] mindfulness itself in the sense of foundation (pa.t.thaana.t.thena) is “foundation of mindfulness” (sati pa.t.thaana). 1016. Or alternatively, “mindfulness” is in the sense of remembrance (sara.na.t.thena), foundation (pa.t.thaana) is in the sense of establishing (upa.t.thaana). 12151 Thus “it is mindfulness and that is the foundation” (sati ca saa pa.t.thaanañ ca) is “foundation of mindfulness” (sati pa.t.thaana). This [third kind] is meant here.  Cheers KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125611 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:13 am Subject: Satipatthana 1 - What is it? ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all resend to put the source for the second text  Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary pg 272  30. An establishing (patthana) is that 'sets out' (patitthati). The meaning is that it occurs with the body, etc, as its object, having made its entrance by virtue of taking (these) as ugly, etc. A mindfulness establishing is an establishing that is itself mindfulness. But that establishing is an establishing that is itself mindfulness. But that establishing is said to be fourfold by virtue taking the body, feeling, consciousness, and dhamma as [respectively] ugly, painful, impermanent, and not self, and by virtue of abandoning the distorted perception [of them] as beautiful, pleasant, permanent and self. Hence there are four establishing of mindfulness  Dispeller of Delusion pg 270  1011.  Satipatthãna (‘foundations of mindfulness”): there are three kinds of foundation of mindfulness, (1) the domain of mindfulness (satigocaro), (2) the Master’s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification as regards the entry of the disciples [on the way of practice] (tidhaa pa.tipannesu saavakesu Satthuno pa.tighaanunayaviitivattataa), and (3) mindfulness (sati). 1012.  (1) In the passage beginning: ‘1 shall teach, bhikkhus, the arising and the disappearance of the four foundations of mindfulness listen ... And what, bhikkhus, is the arising of the body? With the arising of nutriment there is the arising of the body’ (S v 184), it is the “domain of mindfulness” that is called mindfulness. Likewise in such passages as: “The body is the establishment (upa.t.thaana), it is not mindfulness.  Mindfulness is both establishment and mindfulness.” (Ps i 177, ii 232), the meaning of that is: “that on which it is founded” (pati.t.thaati) is “foundation” (pa.t.thaana). What is founded? Mindfulness. [Thus] it is “mindfulness’s foundation” (satiyaa [gen.] pa.t.thaana.m) which is the “foundation of mindfulness” (sati- pa.t.thaana). 1013.  Or foundation (pa.t.thaana) means place for [exercising] effort (padhna.t.thaana); [in this sense] it is the “place” (pa.t.thaana) for mindfulness (satiyaa; gen. or dat.) that is the “foundation of mindfulness” (satipa.t.thaana), like the “place for elephants (hatthi.t.thaana), “place for horses” (assa.t.thaana). 1014.  (2) As regards the passage: “There are three foundations of mindfulness which the Noble One cultivates, and cultivating which the Noble One is a master who is worthy to instruct his flock” (M iii 216, 221), here it is the “threefold surpassing by the Master of resentment and gratification as regards the entry of the disciples [on the way]” that is called the “foundation of mindfulness”. The meaning of that is: “foundation” (pa.t.thaana) is because of what should be founded (pa.t.thapetabba); “because of what should be made to occur” is the meaning. Because of what should be made to occur by means of what? By means of mindfulness. So “foundation of mindfulness” (sati pa.t.thaana) is the “foundation by means of mindfulness” (satiyd [instr.] pa.t.thaana.m). 1015.  (3) But in such passages as: “The four foundations of mindfulness being developed and frequently practised perfect the seven enlightenment factors” (S v 329), it is mindfulness itself that is called the “foundation of mindfulness”. The meaning of that is: “what founds” (pati.t.thaati) is “foundation” (pa.t.thaana); it is established (upa.t.thaati); “having gone down into, entered into, it proceeds” is the meaning. [Thus] mindfulness itself in the sense of foundation (pa.t.thaana.t.thena) is “foundation of mindfulness” (sati pa.t.thaana). 1016. Or alternatively, “mindfulness” is in the sense of remembrance (sara.na.t.thena), foundation (pa.t.thaana) is in the sense of establishing (upa.t.thaana). 12151 Thus “it is mindfulness and that is the foundation” (sati ca saa pa.t.thaanañ ca) is “foundation of mindfulness” (sati pa.t.thaana). This [third kind] is meant here.  Cheers KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125612 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, >________________________________ > From: Dieter Moeller >D: thank you for the kind invitation , Sarah. >As much as I would like to meet you and friends in Poland but I am afraid personal reasons will hinder me to do so . >However I am looking forward to learn about your Dhamma discussions lateron and of course about your impressions during the -certainly wonderful - trip. >B.T.W. I can't remember to have read anything ever from Gabi, is she a dsg member? ... S: Gabi is an old Dhamma friend who used to live in Thailand. We knew her three. Unfortunately she doesn't have internet or email access, so we never hear from her on DSG. Nina keeps contact and has called her to pass on all the details for the trip. She'll be travelling by train from Germany, meeting us in Warsaw on 9th and travelling to the resort together. If personal reasons allow, do come for part or all of the stay, Dieter! We'd love to have you and you'll feel at home with all the Thai friends around. A lovely spot by the lakes too. Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125613 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E, Pt & all, > >________________________________ > > From: Robert E > > > >Is it really true that no one has posted [other than me] for the last 30 hours or so? Help, where is everyone? > ..... > > S: OK, Ok, Ok...... we're on our way to the rescue! Nina will be back soon, I'm sure. Oh, thank you, I thought maybe that physical reality was starting to implode and that dhammas would stop arising. I guess I'm not ready to let the manifest universe go... > News: The Dhamma discussions in Poland are now 9th - 17th Sept. Hoping it's fixed now as we'll be buying our non-refundable tickets this weekend. Poor Alberto is having to change his..... Gee, I wish I could join you - would be a great opportunity as you say. My schedule won't allow it again this time, so I will have to aim for a future occasion in Thailand, when the vipaka is lined up correctly. Unless I can get my cousin to reschedule his wedding... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125614 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:17 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > (125507) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > Pt. 3. > > ... > > RE: So mental factors "make or break" the action, but still don't substitute for it. If you have lovely mental factors but watch someone being murdered without helping them, that is not kusala, even if the mental factors are great. > > =============== > > J: There can be kusala mental factors arising in the midst of an action that we would regard as an akusala one, and there can be akusala mental factors arising in the course of a `kusala' action. That's why it serves no purpose to try and classify an action by its outward appearance. You bring up a general assertion in response to a specific example. I wonder what your response would be to the example I mentioned. Can kusala arise in the midst of murder? Can there be a kusala mental state while murder is taking place? Is it possible for a kusala mental factor to lead one to akusala kamma vipaka? I think the answer in all cases is no. Of course kusala can arise in the midst of negative circumstances, but if I am in the midst of stabbing someone or cutting the head off of a live chicken, I am asserting that during such activities kusala is not present. Do you disagree? > In the case of the blind monk, it seemed to those observing that he was deliberately treading on insects; but in fact that was not the case. > > It is impossible to know another's mental factors (and difficult enough to know one's own!). Sure, one shouldn't assume another's mental factors, but I am talking about a very specific question - whether kusala can arise during the very violent and callous activities that Buddha prescribed. The Buddha said that one may not eat meat that is killed specifically for a monk's meal. That is not a question of kusala mental factors, but of a defiled activity. Killing is likewise proscribed under any circumstances, regardless of mental state. Would you disagree? > > =============== > > > J: 'Right action' is not a matter of the 'right' outward conduct/action. > > > > RE: In fact it partially is - murder can never be kusala, no matter what. It is a 'wrong action' no matter what the mental factors accompanying it. > > =============== > > J: I'm not sure I follow. `Murder' is defined in terms of the intention to take the other person's life, and if that intention is not present at the appropriate time then it's not murder. The act of purposely taking another's life is always wrong according to the Buddha. So, a certain person may be very nice and happy and kill chickens for a living, but the Buddha would not consider that kusala. At best it is the result of ignorance, which is akusala. Do you disagree? > > =============== > > RE: In fact, both the Buddha and the commentaries speak of the three levels of kamma patha - mental, speech and physical. I think we ignore such itemization at our peril, and I take seriously the idea that all three levels have to line up or you don't have true kusala. If mental factors do not translate into right speech and right action, the kusala is poisoned, and you get akusala kamma patha. > > =============== > > J: Right speech and action are the kusala restraint from wrong speech and action. If the restraint is without kusala, then there's no right speech or action. In the listings of akusala kamma patha, there are definite actions that are named in the lists of speech and action. In addition, while kusala kamma patha is caused by restraint, positive expressions are also implied, eg, 'telling the truth,' not just restraint from lying. > > =============== > > RE: As I'm sure you would agree, the arahant not only has perfected mental factors, but also demonstrates perfectly expressed kusala speech and action. It's not one without the other, though there are those here who choose to emphasize kusala mental factors to the exclusion of all else. I just don't think that is justified by anything I've seen in the actual texts. Do you have a text - and this is not meant rhetorically - that demonstrates directly that I am wrong about this? I would be very anxious to see it. > > =============== > > J: The best I can do for a text at the moment are the following entries from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary (which, with a few notable exceptions, accurately reflects the traditional Theravadan interpretation of the texts): > > 1. Entry for "kusala" > > ********************************* > 'karmically wholesome' or 'profitable', salutary, morally good, (skillful) ... > > It is defined in M.9 as the 10 wholesome courses of action (s. kammapatha). > > In psychological terms, 'karmically wholesome' are all those karmical volitions (kamma-cetanaa) and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, which are accompanied by 2 or 3 wholesome roots (muula), i.e. by greedlessness (alobha) and hatelessness (adosa), and in some cases also by non-delusion (amoha: wisdom, understanding). > > Such states of consciousness are regarded as 'karmically wholesome' as they are causes of favourable karma results and contain the seeds of a happy destiny or rebirth. > > From this explanation, two facts should be noted: > > (1) it is volition that makes a state of consciousness, or an act, 'good' or 'bad'; > > (2) the moral criterion in Buddhism is the presence or absence of the 3 wholesome or moral roots. > ********************************* > > Note particularly that "it is volition that makes a state of consciousness, or an act, 'good' or 'bad'", and "the moral criterion in Buddhism is the presence or absence of the 3 wholesome or moral roots". > > > 2. Entry for "muula" > > ********************************* > 'roots', also called hetu, are those conditions which through their presence determine the actual moral quality of a volitional state (cetanaa), and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, in other words, the quality of karma. > > There are 6 such roots, 3 karmically wholesome and 3 unwholesome roots, viz.,: greed, hate, delusion (lobha, dosa, moha), and greedlessness, hatelessness, undeludedness (alobha, adosa, amoha). > ********************************* > > The entry for `muula' also contains a sutta passage that is relevant: > > "Killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, lying, tale-bearing, harsh language, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill-will and wrong views (s. kammapatha), these things are due either to greed, or hate, or delusion" (A.X.174). > > So deeds are unwholesome by virtue of being accompanied by (and to the extent that they are accompanied by) one or more of the akusala roots. Well I still think you are leaving out the connection which is stated directly here between those akusala mental states and their *expression* in conventional actions. When the text states that Killing, Steading, etc. are *due to* greed, hate or delusion, it is making the very connection I am talking about. When akusala mental stastes arise they will be expressed as akusala actions, and when such actions are present, one can presume the presence of akusala mental states. They are indeed associated, and arise together, just as your quote states above. Again, when known unwholesome actions are present, one can know that they have been caused by unwholesome mental states. This explains Rob K.'s statement that "if there is more kusala, there will be less murder." Kusala and akusala mental states are expressed in conventional actions that accord with those mental states. There is no such thing as a murder that is accompanied by kusala mental states. It is impossible, as murder is the outcome, as your quote above shows, of akusala mental states themselves. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125615 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, >________________________________ > From: Robert E >> S: OK, Ok, Ok...... we're on our way to the rescue! Nina will be back soon, I'm sure. > >R: Oh, thank you, I thought maybe that physical reality was starting to implode and that dhammas would stop arising. I guess I'm not ready to let the manifest universe go... ... :-)) ... >Gee, I wish I could join you - would be a great opportunity as you say. My schedule won't allow it again this time, so I will have to aim for a future occasion in Thailand, when the vipaka is lined up correctly. Unless I can get my cousin to reschedule his wedding... ... S: Or redirect his wedding to Poland? Seriously, what date is the wedding? Perhaps you could come for part of the trip - your own quick escape and Dhamma honeymoon? It would be wonderful to meet you and any other old friends at such an occasion. Regadless, kusala akusala vipaka all the time, even as we write.....seeing, hearing and so on....all realities to be known now. Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125616 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:07 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 4 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, We read in the “Discourse on Fear and Dread” (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 4) how he spent the three “watches” of the night during which he attained enlightenment. He first attained the four rúpa-jhånas. We then read: “Thus with the mind composed, quite purified, quite clarified, without blemish, without defilement, grown soft and workable, fixed, immovable, I directed my mind to the knowledge and recollection of former habitations: I remembered a variety of former habitations, thus: one birth, two births... a hundred thousand births, and many an aeon of integration and many an aeon of disintegration and many an aeon of integration-disintegration; such a one was I by name, having such and such a clan, such and such a colour, so was I nourished, such and such pleasant and painful experiences were mine, so did the span of life end. Passing from this, I came to be in another state where such and such a one was I by name...Passing from this I arose here. Thus I remember divers former habitations in all their modes and detail. This, brahman, was the first knowledge attained by me in the first watch of the night; ignorance was dispelled, knowledge arose, darkness was dispelled, light arose, even as I abided diligent, ardent, self-resolute....” From this quotation we see how the Bodhisatta remembered previous lives, even as long as a “hundred thousand births” ago. He remembered these lives in all their details. When one reads the Jåtakas, the birth-stories of the Bodhisatta, one might consider them as only legends. We should note that, just as the other parts of the Tipiìaka, also the Jåtakas deal with realities. They relate us how the Bodhisatta accumulated all the virtues necessary for Buddhahood. These virtues are real, not fictitious. He had accumulated all the perfections ever since he had made the resolve to become a future Buddha. In this very night he remembered his previous lives there would be the fulfilment of his resolve for the sake of which he had endured so much, out of compassion for all beings. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125617 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:10 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125536) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: But `kusala' is a (purely) mental quality; not a characteristic of a conventional activity. Conventional activities cannot have directly experiencable characteristics. > > RE: Perhaps, so, but you do not address my point - at least here, that an unwholesome activity *cannot* be undertaken by someone while in a kusala mental state. The kusala may not come from the action, but the action does come from the kusala, from the mental state. The action is not just beside the point, but is the expression of the kusala or akusala. A wholesome-seeming action can be ruined by an akusala mental state, but an unwholesome action cannot be corrected by a kusala mental state, I would say, in most cases. > =============== J: You are taking as your starting point a conventional action that you characterise as either a kusala or an akusala one. But the teaching given by the Buddha does not concern itself with the conventional nature of actions. It talks about kusala kamma patha and akusala kamma patha. Kamma (literally, `action') is declared to be the momentary mental factor of cetana (intention). The commission of kamma patha does not have any particular conventional counterpart. For example, while a murder may be committed by an act of stabbing, it may also be committed by giving a coded instruction over the phone. So no general rule can be drawn as to the relationship between conventional actions and dhammas. > =============== > RE: For instance, as I pointed out, one cannot murder someone while in a kusala mental state. One cannot engage in wrong speech while in a kusala mental state. So kusala does have expression and influence in conventional actions or restraint fro such actions, even though the action in and of itself is not the creator of the kusala. So perhaps you can address this point, and what its significance is? > =============== J: In the teachings, there's no such thing as being "in a kusala/akusala mental state" in any sense other than a momentary one. The mental state may vary from one mind-door process to the next. So there may be kusala in the midst of a conventional action that we would consider to be an unwholesome one, and akusala in the midst of a wholesome one. No rule, no particular relationship. > =============== > RE: To me it means that there is a connection between kusala and conventional action, and that kusala precludes actions that are unwholesome by definition, according to the Buddha. A person cannot be drinking, smoking. cursing and beating their child while in a kusala mental state. It's just not going to happen. Kusala leads one in a wholesome direction in life as well as in mind. Would you not agree? > =============== J: The performing of conventional actions that are `unwholesome' does not preclude the arising of kusala mental states in the midst of (even very strong) akusala. Even for someone who has not heard the teachings, for example, there can be moments of `knowing' that one is causing (undeserved) hurt to another, that one's conduct breaches conventional norms, that one is taking out one's own `issues' on another, and so on. > =============== > > "Mind is the forerunner of states [J: dhammas]. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. > > > > Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves." > > RE: A "forerunner" creates what comes after it. Kusala mental states are the forerunner of kusala speech and actions. That is my point. > =============== J: Note that the text does not speak of kusala or akusala actions. It talks about acting with kusala/akusala mental states. > =============== > RE: A kusala mental state will not lead to a man mercilessly beating his horse. Would it ever? No. They cannot coincide because cruelly beating one's horse is inherently akusala in itself. > =============== J: But a man who is mercilessly beating his horse (with akusala mental states) may have kusala moments among the akusala ones. There is no principle of Dhamma to the contrary. > =============== > RE: Washing the dishes is not especially good or evil, just a task, but if kusala is arising, the dishes will be washed in a benign and wholesome manner, so the kusala mental state influences and infiltrates the conventional action. They are not disassociated from each other. > =============== J: The idea of the mental state "infiltrating and influencing the conventional action" is not part of the teaching of the Buddha. In terms of the dhammas spoken of by the Buddha, the only difference between the conventional action of washing the dishes with kusala mental state (unlikely, but theoretically possible, I suppose!) and washing the dishes with akusala mental state is a difference in the ethical quality of the citta and accompanying mental factors at the moments of kusala; the other arising dhammas are the same. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125618 From: "Alberto" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:40 pm Subject: arammana paccaya sprlrt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas, > Do u think u could translate the the few frist pages of Patthana from pali? I mean only Paccayuddeso where all 24 kinds conditions are listed, and Paccayaniddeso, where there 24 conditions are exposed in briefly. Sorry, I've stopped translating from paali, too difficult for me. > Arammanapaccayoti: > rupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. > I think this may means: visible object base(as ayatana) condtions seeing-consciousness and its accompanying dhammas by way of object condition. Dhammas have specific characteristics (lakkhana/sabhava), that of citta (any citta: kusala/akusala, vipaka or kiriya) is to think about, or experience, an object. So it is citta only that has that characteristic, not cetasikas (although they share with citta the same object, and they too therefore are the paccayauppanna (the dhammas conditioned by a paccaya) of arammana paccaya) they have others characteristics, which distinguishes them from citta and from each other). Rupa doesn't think about or experience anything, neither nibbana, they are not conditioned by arammana paccaya, only citta (and cetasikas) are. We give importance to what 'we' think about or experience, forgetting that it is just the characteristic of citta, a reality arising because of conditions (such as arammana) and falling away the next instant. Alberto Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125619 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:19 pm Subject: thanks nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, Jon, Howard, Dieter, Christine, Han and Phil, dear good friends, We wish to thank you so much for your kind thoughts and wishes, we really appreciate this. Nina and Lodewijk. Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125620 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:23 pm Subject: Thanks nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E, Thank you for your good wishes and your kindness. I had the opportunity to read messages only today. Nina. Reply | Messages in this Topic (21) #125621 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:31 pm Subject: Life-events and the development of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125537) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: My point, though disputed, is that the other forms of kusala are necessary, not just desirable, to the development of insight. Without kusala, how can one have detachment, peacefulness and clarity? Without those, how can one have insight? If the defilements are buzzing like crazy, arising all the time, I would not expect much insight to develop. > =============== J: Yes, that is the `popular' view, but not the message of the teachings. The development of awareness can proceed regardless of the general level of defilements. > =============== > RE: I think there is quite a bit of dualism in most of our consideration of dhammas, divorcing them from what is experienced in life, which indeed is what most of us experience 24/7. Instead we see the theoretical arising of dhammas - little monads separate from experience - as more important than a mother beating a child or an alcoholic taking a drink. I think it's more worthwhile to understand the role of akusala dhammas in *those* events, rather than how they occur in an official theoretical series in a book. The book should lead us to understand how to view life-events correctly, not how to ignore them. > =============== J: The development of the path does not involve ignoring life-events, but nor does it involve understanding how to view them correctly. It proceeds regardless of circumstances (life-events). > =============== > RE: By the way, I would like to stress that when I argue for this, it is not an argument in my favor. I'm terrible at the development of kusala in everyday life, and I agree it's not something we can control. I still think it's necessary however, and that it's the right perspective to adopt. > =============== J: Yes, it's the perspective (understanding) that counts, not the extent to which there is kusala in one's daily life. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125622 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:52 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125584) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: Well the way I look at it, given the agreed-upon fact that without kusala mental factors, there is no kusala, is that certain sorts of activities 'in the world' as it were, are of importance and do tend to promote kusala, but cannot on their own create kusala. I also think that certain conventional activities will tend to create akusala, and some of them cannot be "saved" by the theoretical accompaniment of kusala mental factors, since kusala cannot accompany such activities. > =============== J: Regarding "certain conventional activities will tend to create akusala", the Buddha taught that akusala kamma brings akusala vipaka. And akusala kamma, in the ultimate analysis, is the cetana that accompanies akusala cittas. > ============== > RE: So I believe that if one is indeed a butcher who slaughters chickens for a living, that Buddha would say that this person cannot develop kusala at the moment of slaughtering a chicken and that they are instead developing negative kamma at those moments, and so that form of livelihood is working *against* the path, rather than being neutral or insignificant. That's an example, the type of example I have in mind, of "conventional activities" supporting or not supporting the path. > =============== J: The Buddha pointed out the dangers of akusala kamma patha (namely, rebirth in planes where there is no access to the teachings), but other than that did not dwell on the akusala that arises for most of our waking hours. > ============== > RE: One cannot commit murder while developing kusala mental factors. Could one have an epiphany moment where one sees the akusala factors that cause/accompany killing as merely arising cetasikas and have a path-development moment? I think so. But I also think the accumulations of someone who kills makes it unlikely that such a moment will develop any time soon. So that's my take on "conventional" reality and the path. > =============== J: The doing of a conventionally unwholesome deed is not, as a matter of doctrine, a bar to the development of the path. In practice, of course, those who are interested in the development of the path are also likely to be interested in developing kusala of all kinds in their daily life. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125623 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:29 pm Subject: What is pariyatti. no 1. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, From a recording, talks with Jessika. Kh S: < What is pariyatti? It has to be the reality, dhamma, now. What the Buddha taught from the time he was enlightened, all his teachings are pariyatti. We may think that pariyatti is only in the book. That is not pariyatti so long as there is no understanding of reality right now. It is not different from this moment, it has to be the real dhamma now. The texts help one to consider, to read about it and to know that it is now. When the understanding of pariyatti is fully developed it it is sacca ~naa.na. (N: There must be three rounds of understanding the noble Truths: sacca ~naa.na, understanding of what has to be known and what the Path is; kicca ~naa.na, understanding of the task, that is, satipa.t.thaana; kata ~naa.na: understanding of what has been realized, the realisation of the truth.) There is then no doubt about the reality right now. If there is still doubt about about the reality right now as dhamma, there are no conditions for the right awareness. Jessica: What is pa.tipatti, the practice? Kh S: If we do not use any terms are there realities appearing right now? We use words in order to know which reality appears. We are talking about hardness, we know that it can be experienced by body- consciousness. And now, does it appear? Is it dhamma? Yes. If there is not the naama that experiences it can it appear? Hardness is not the reality that experiences it, these are different kinds of realities. There must be the faculty of knowing or experiencing an object, otherwise nothing can appear. Is it you who experiences hardness? Jessica: No. Kh S: that is pariyatti, when you say: no. When there is touching at that moment hardness appears and understanding understands the characteristic of hardness as not the experience. You do not have to use the names naama and ruupa. We can say: seeing is naama, visible object is ruupa, hearing is naama, sound is ruupa, etc. It does not come automatically, it comes from listening and considering. Pariyatti has conditions too, from hearing and considering. No one can understand instantly the reality that experiences hardness. When awareness arises and is aware, that moment is different from a moment without awareness. Pa.tipatti is the moment when sati arises. In the beginning it is so weak. Pa~n~naa knows that a moment of awareness is different from a moment without awareness. Pa~n~naa develops and this takes time. -------- (to be continued) Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125624 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:42 pm Subject: packing lists. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas and Alberto, I liked to read about your packing list. Give us more! This reminded me of a Dhamma friend Icaro who had to pack for bootcamp: N: This was his packing list: solidity (or extension) cohesion temperature motion eyesense earsense nose (smellingsense) tongue (tastingsense) bodysense visible object sound odour flavour femininity masculinity heart-base life faculty nutrition space bodily intimation speech intimation lightness plasticity wieldiness birth or integration continuity decay impermanence A picture of the whole! Yes, I often think of his natural way of learning about the 28 rupas, just realities in daily life. They are right at hand. His presence was so refreshing, Abhidhamma straight. It happens that today I am with my packing list for Bgk. I am so inspired by Icaro!! Visible object is just to be seen, hardness is to be touched, sound is to be heard. There are the eight inseparables, avinibhogas, as real as anything. All around. Rupas, no concepts!! Packing without stress, it is fun. I was looking for some red slippers in the cupboard, and yes, only one was there, why never in pairs? Then quietly looking in some boxes, Icaros' list in hand. There was the second one, and colour was seen. After that defining: a slipper. Colour is the only, only rupa of this list that can be seen. I will not let all of you look further into my untidy cupboard. Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter  sorry I have to correct the sutta quote, I forget to add in the NOT before a mental one  <> SN 36.6 Sallatha Sutta cheers KC >________________________________ >From: Dieter Moeller >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Saturday, 21 July 2012, 23:50 >Subject: Re: [dsg] grow disenchanted with stress > > > >Dear KC, (all) > >you wrote: > >I give you some write up in Abhidhamam to describe the meaning of suffering. It also explains why noble one experience bodily pain >Dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion para 446 >446. Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of expounding the Noble truth of suffering; for this suffering is manifold and of various kinds, that is to say ; the suffering as suffering, the suffering in change, the suffering in formations, concealed suffering, exposed suffering, figurative suffering (pariyaaya), literal suffering. >447. Herein bodily and mental painful feeling are called "suffering as suffering" because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called "suffering in change" because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change. Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called “suffering in formations” because of being oppressed by rise and fall. But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called “suffering of the formations”, by their being included in the Truth of Suffering. >448. Such bodily and mental afflictions as earache, toothache, fever born of lust, fever born of hate, etc are called “concealed suffering” because they can only be known by questioning, and because the attack is not openly evident: they are also called “unevident suffering”. Afflictions produced by the 32 tortures and so on is called “exposed suffering”. Except for suffering as suffering, the rest come down in the Dukkhasaccavibha.nga (Vbh 99). Also all beginning birth are called “figurative suffering” because they are the basis of one or another kind of suffering, but it is “suffering as suffering” that is called “literal suffering” > ><> SN 36.6 Sallatha Sutta > >D: thanks for the quotations, KC , offering food for thoughts. >For example what is the difference between the toothache of a commoner and a noble one, besides that the latter endures the pain without "sorrow, grieve or lament; he does not weep weeping his breast and become distraught" (the so called second dart) ?. >Mental and bodily pain are stated within the first N.T. , all of these expected to end (third N.T.) .. but then it seems to be only part of it > >KC: I felt this is a good sutta extracts that explain the intensity of suffering ><<"What is grief? It is the grief, sorrow, sorrowfulness, the state of being sorry, inward sorrow, inward intense sorrow visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called grief. >"What is lamentation? It is the crying, the wailing, the act of crying, the act of wailing, the state of crying, the state of wailing of one visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called lamentation. >"What is suffering? It is bodily suffering, bodily unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by bodily contact. This is called suffering. >"What is misery? It is mental suffering, unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by mental contact. This is called misery. >"What is despair? It is despondency, despair, the state of despondency, the state of despair of one visited by some calamity or other. This is called despair. >>> Majjhima Nikaya 141 Saccavibhanga Sutta > >D: yes , good extract >the issue of suffering , its contemplation and understanding what has been said about it , is - as you may know - a condition for faith in the Dhamma, not by chance mentioned in the place. >As you pointed out there is broad scale of intensity , a feeling from simple boredom to agony . > >However the topic concerns whether there is any need to grow disentchanted with that unpleasantness, as expressed by 'atha nibbindati dukkhe' Dhammapada .. > >with Metta Dieter > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125626 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:33 am Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125614) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: You bring up a general assertion in response to a specific example. I wonder what your response would be to the example I mentioned. Can kusala arise in the midst of murder? Can there be a kusala mental state while murder is taking place? > =============== J: I think I've already covered this. Moments of kusala can arise in the midst of moments of strong akusala, and vice versa. Hope that's clear enough for you :-)) > =============== > RE: Is it possible for a kusala mental factor to lead one to akusala kamma vipaka? > =============== J: Kusala intention/kamma cannot lead to akusala vipaka. > =============== > RE: I think the answer in all cases is no. Of course kusala can arise in the midst of negative circumstances, but if I am in the midst of stabbing someone or cutting the head off of a live chicken, I am asserting that during such activities kusala is not present. Do you disagree? > =============== J: There cannot be kusala and akusala at precisely the same moment. But the conventional act of killing a chicken spans innumerable citta moments, not all of which may be akusala. > =============== > RE: Sure, one shouldn't assume another's mental factors, but I am talking about a very specific question - whether kusala can arise during the very violent and callous activities that Buddha prescribed. The Buddha said that one may not eat meat that is killed specifically for a monk's meal. That is not a question of kusala mental factors, but of a defiled activity. Killing is likewise proscribed under any circumstances, regardless of mental state. Would you disagree? > =============== J: Intentionally taking life is akusala kamma patha. If the death of another is caused but the necessary intention is not present (e.g., it happens by accident), then it's not akusala kamma patha. > =============== > RE: The act of purposely taking another's life is always wrong according to the Buddha. So, a certain person may be very nice and happy and kill chickens for a living, but the Buddha would not consider that kusala. > =============== J: Agreed. The mental moments that constitute any part of the deliberate taking of life would not be kusala (but there could be kusala moments intermingled). > =============== > RE: At best it is the result of ignorance, which is akusala. Do you disagree? > =============== J: Ignorance and dosa would be involved. > =============== > > J: Right speech and action are the kusala restraint from wrong speech and action. If the restraint is without kusala, then there's no right speech or action. > > RE: In the listings of akusala kamma patha, there are definite actions that are named in the lists of speech and action. > =============== J: The kinds of akusala kamma patha mentioned do not specify particular conventional actions. For example, the akusala kamma path of killing could be committed by speaking over the phone (or by a text message, for that matter), as where A gives an order to B to take the life of another and B does just that. > =============== > RE: In addition, while kusala kamma patha is caused by restraint, positive expressions are also implied, eg, 'telling the truth,' not just restraint from lying. > =============== J: There does not have to be speaking the truth in order to constitute right speech; restraint from wrong speech suffices, if at that moment the kusala mental factor (that is given the name "right speech") arises. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125627 From: "azita" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:56 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland gazita2002 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hallo RobE, Sarah, > >Gee, I wish I could join you - would be a great opportunity as you say. My schedule won't allow it again this time, so I will have to aim for a future occasion in Thailand, when the vipaka is lined up correctly. Unless I can get my cousin to reschedule his wedding... azita: wish I could join in also Rob, however, its so far away from the land of Oz and besides, I have a ticket for Bkk for Sept26 - o well. Cheap tickets that cannot be changed. I think Sarah, that you will not be in Bkk by the time I get there, have I got that right? Do you know if AS will be back in Thailand by then. All good here, mostly, pleasant winter days in the tropics. Attended 5yo grandsons birthday yesterday, lots of party food, not one moment of eeven thinking about dhamma. 6month old granddaughter is learning to blow bubbles, she's a cute little thing. Round and round we go .......... :) patience, courage and good cheer azita Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125628 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:11 pm Subject: Re: arammana paccaya szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alberto, > > Arammanapaccayoti: > > > rupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. > > I think this may means: visible object base(as > ayatana) condtions seeing-consciousness and its accompanying dhammas by way of object condition. > Dhammas have specific characteristics (lakkhana/sabhava), that of >citta (any citta: kusala/akusala, vipaka or kiriya) is to think >about, or experience, an object. L: Is there any difference of lakkhana of citta and sabhava? lakkhana seems like sign, sabhava like with its own distinguis nature. The characteristic of citta is as I used to tell Luraya often(my friend also eager to meet Acharn in Poland)that which experiences. But if we must render the most accurate meaning for citta, its characteristic what it will be? that which thinks of, that knows an object, that what experience? cinteti is that what thinks of, that's why that is called citta, I think. but mano, the mind another world for citta. If it's called mano, than it's that that knows an object? I like this reminder, that what experiences, the characteristic that experiences, only that now. And vi~n~nana that is what? >So it is citta only that has that characteristic, not cetasikas (although they share with citta the same object, and they too therefore are the paccayauppanna (the dhammas conditioned by a paccaya) of arammana paccaya) they have others characteristics, which distinguishes them from citta and from each other). L: In case of arammanapaccaya, the visible object (base) conditions cakkhuvi~n~nanadhatu tamsampayutta dhammaa. So it's the visible object, the vana color that conditions seeing consciousness associated with other dhammas, cetasikas, like phassa. So in the case of arammana paccaya do u think this is mainly cakkhuvi~n~nana dhatu mainly or only conditioned by visible object? > Rupa doesn't think about or experience anything, neither nibbana, they are not conditioned by arammana paccaya, only citta (and cetasikas) are. L: And I think that rupas are dhammas that are not associatied with citta and cetasika. But nibbana itself is nama. > We give importance to what 'we' think about or experience, forgetting that it is just the characteristic of citta, a reality arising because of conditions (such as arammana) and falling away the next instant. L: That's true. Good reminder for a day. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125629 From: Lukas Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:10 pm Subject: What is the characteristic of citta that can be known in daily life? szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, What is the characteristic of citta? All what appers, comes due to citta? But how citta can be known in daily life? I am listening Dhamma quite a bit last days, but the right understanding of the characteristic of citta never arises. What is the way to understand this characteristic of citta? Best wishes Lukas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125630 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:31 pm Subject: More on kusala/akusala and actions (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: It is of course common sense to say that a person is unlikely to be having moments of metta while screaming and cursing at someone. > > But it's not a principle of Dhamma that there can be no kusala at such times. For example, awareness of the akusala at such a time is quite possible (if awareness has previously been developed). Sure it's always possible that a moment of awareness may arise, but the fact remains that it is the akusala that is leading to the action. The reason it is common sense that screaming and cursing would go with arising akusala is in fact because they go together. A moment of awareness would be a break in that akusala, an exception rather than the rule. I'm just trying to establish the association, in general, of akusala with conventional negative actions, and like you say, it's common sense, because it is indeed sensible to see them as associated. > And conversely, a person exhibiting great kindness to another may be having strong conceit or wrong view, or may have a self-serving motive in acting that way. Right, and these are clearly contradictory, which shows that in the normal situation they would be in harmony. The reason that an act of generosity *appears* to be good, is because in general it is. If negative mental factors "spoil the broth" that is a deviation from what would be natural and obvious, and there's a reaso why such an association is natural and obvious. > There is no hard and fast rule, and it would be a mistake to think that the quality of the citta can be deduced from the outward appearance of the action. I agree with the latter part of that statement but not the former. True, you cannot deduce the motive from a given action, but in general, in many instances it will be what one would expect. Acts of kindness in general come from the intention to be kind. There may be other motives but that is what is natural to such an act, to come from the intention to do such an act of kindness. > > =============== > > RE: And I would reverse the statement to say that in fact "conventional reality follows paramatha dhammas," and is the imperfect reflection of paramatha dhammas that worldlings experience. > > =============== > > J: Sorry Rob, but I'm not in agreement with you on this point :-)) Well, I guess we can't agree on everything... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125631 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:55 pm Subject: what is pariyatti, no 2. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Jon: What is the characteristic of pariyatti? Kh S: Now. We understand that there is no self. What we take for self are only seeing, hearing, smelling, etc. and all other realities. There is a difference between no understanding about realities, and understanding of realities conditioned by hearing and considering. There can be moments of akusala or of kusala with or without understanding. We learn this from texts, but when they are present but there is no direct awareness, they are not known. Direct awareness is different. When pariyatti is sufficient it conditions pa.tipatti. When one thinks how one can have it and what one should do to gain it, this is not the way. Sacca ~naa.na conditions pa.tipatti. Sacca ~naa.na realizes that each reality is conditioned whenever it arises. One is so concerned about wanting to know, but pa~n~naa is the opposite of the idea of wanting to, wanting to, wanting to. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125632 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:57 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 5. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, The sutta then continues concerning the second watch of the night: “Then with mind composed... I directed my mind to the knowledge of the passing hence and the arising of beings. With the purified deva- vision surpassing that of men I see beings as they pass hence or come to be; I comprehend that beings are mean, excellent, comely, ugly, well-going, ill-going, according to the consequences of their deeds... This, brahman, was the second knowledge attained by me in the middle watch of the night; ignorance was dispelled, knowledge arose, darkness was dispelled, light arose, even as I abided diligent, ardent, self-resolute....” The Bodhisatta who had always been intent on the happiness and welfare of all beings must have felt great compassion after he had seen the passing away and rebirth of beings. Always gentle, compassionate, merciful and kind, he had been intent on the happiness of others by giving gifts, by observing síla and by dispelling people’s fears. He had always been extremely patient with people’s many kinds of faults and he had never felt a trace of hatred when they tried to harm him. That night he saw how people reaped what they had sown, how they were heirs to their deeds. He saw some people who had a happy rebirth and others who has an unhappy rebirth. He who would very soon make an end to the cycle of birth and death was full of compassion for those who were still caught up in ignorance and craving and, thus, subject to the dangers of rebirth. He was unshakable in his resolve to help as many beings as he could by attaining Buddhahood that very night. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125633 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:31 pm Subject: Re: To Alberto. Dhamma trip to Poland sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas (& Alberto), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > Do u think u could translate the the few frist pages of Patthana from pali? I mean only Paccayuddeso where all 24 kinds conditions are listed, and Paccayaniddeso, where there 24 conditions are exposed in briefly. I found this very deep when I read it in England, having english translation from library. It would be great if we could both read it to Acharn, and ask a questions. The exposition in brief of arammana paccaya is so deep. I found that this Paccayanidesso with description in short of all conditions is so good reminder to read in daily life. Sometimes it is good to have short good reminder, than reading a lot on conditions. It would be a great gift for me also, since I cant read pali and I dont have Patthana in english. > > In Paccayaniddeso the second kind of conditions arammana paccaya starts. > > == > Arammanapaccayoti: > > rupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. I think this may means: visible object base(as ayatana) condtions seeing-consciousness and its accompanying dhammas by way of object condition. ... S: Yes. Here is Narada's transl: "Visible object-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition." > === > > So the visible object base is a condition for seeing-consciousness to arise and all 7 cetasikas arising with seeing consciousness by way of object condition. Without visible object seeing could never arise. I think this is great reminder for all of us. We think 'I see', 'my seeing', 'me in seeing'. But this is only a seeing consciousness that arise and perform its function. There is no self anywhere that could make seeing arise. like open ones eyes to see. This is all conditioned. Without the second condition, object condition there would be no seeing. Do we remember that? Without visible object that is ruupa, seeing could never arise. Seeing is conditioned by visible object. Visible object condition seeing right now. No Self anywhere, going to shop, typying on the keybord, walking the park. Just seeing and visible object and the second condition - object condition. ... S: Yes, all good points you make. ... > I think ruupaayatana is mentioned here, not ruupadhatu to express the meaning of that only visible object conditions the seeing consciousness, and not the eye-sense by way of arammana-paccaya. The color conditions seeing consciousness by way of object condition right now. Just my thoughts. ... S: What you say is correct - that only visible object conditions seeing by way of being object, but I'm not sure why ayatana is mentioned rather than dhatu in this context. For example, ruupadhatu is visible object element. Eye-sense element would be cakkhudhaatu. Perhaps the point is that it is stressing the coming together of the ayatanas, the meeting of visible object and seeing consciousness when visible object is experienced. If the text used manaayatana rather than cakkuvi~n~naana dhaatu, it would not be clear that it was just seeing consciousness being referred to. A good qu for Poland. Alberto may have ideas. If you have any other short extracts in Pali that you want the English transl for, I can do it just these few days before I leave my books when I travel back to Hong Kong at the weekend. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125634 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:41 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125614) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: The entry for `muula' also contains a sutta passage that is relevant: > > > > "Killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, lying, tale-bearing, harsh language, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill-will and wrong views (s. kammapatha), these things are due either to greed, or hate, or delusion" (A.X.174). > > > > So deeds are unwholesome by virtue of being accompanied by (and to the extent that they are accompanied by) one or more of the akusala roots. > > RE: Well I still think you are leaving out the connection which is stated directly here between those akusala mental states and their *expression* in conventional actions. When the text states that Killing, Steading, etc. are *due to* greed, hate or delusion, it is making the very connection I am talking about. When akusala mental stastes arise they will be expressed as akusala actions, and when such actions are present, one can presume the presence of akusala mental states. They are indeed associated, and arise together, just as your quote states above. > =============== J: To my understanding, when the texts speak of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, etc., they are speaking of the akusala kamma patha of that name and not of conventional actions that may appear to correspond to those akusala kamma patha. In any event, the texts do not go on to say that "when such actions are present, one can presume the presence of akusala mental states", or anything to that effect. And there would be no purpose in doing so, since it does not help with the development of understanding of presently arising dhammas. > =============== > RE: Again, when known unwholesome actions are present, one can know that they have been caused by unwholesome mental states. This explains Rob K.'s statement that "if there is more kusala, there will be less murder." Kusala and akusala mental states are expressed in conventional actions that accord with those mental states. There is no such thing as a murder that is accompanied by kusala mental states. It is impossible, as murder is the outcome, as your quote above shows, of akusala mental states themselves. > =============== J: Regarding, "when known unwholesome actions are present, one can know that they have been caused by unwholesome mental states", that `knowledge' is in fact a deduction based on a characterisation of the conventional action as an `unwholesome' one; and a deduction is a kind of thinking. Whereas the development of the path involves knowledge gained by direct experience of presently arisen dhammas. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125635 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:49 pm Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (2) philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Group, Here is today's passage from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket: "There is not only citta that sees, citta that hears, citta that smells, citta that tastes or citta that experiences tangible object, there is also citta that thinks about many diverse subjects. The world of each person is ruled by his citta. The cittas of some people have accumulated a great deal of wholesomeness (kusala.) Even when they meet someone who is full of defilements they can still have loving-kindness, compassion or equanimity because of their accumulations of wholesomeness. Whereas the world of someone else may be a world of hatred, annoyance, anger and displeasure, according to his accumulations. Thus, in reality, each person is all the time his own world." (p.51) (end of passage) Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125636 From: "Alberto" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:59 pm Subject: lakkhana and sabhaavalakkhana sprlrt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Lukas, > L: Is there any difference of lakkhana of citta and sabhava? Patisambhidamagga atthakatha (also Visuddhimagga I think) explains lakkhana as both the characteristic (sabhaavalakkhana) distiguishing each paramattha dhamma (citta, 52 cetasikas, 28 ruupas, and nibbana), and as the characteristics (samannalakkhana) common to them all, in the case of anatta, and to all but nibbana in the case of the other two (dukkha and anicca). > mano, the mind another world for citta. And vi~n~nana...? Citta, manodhathu, manovinnanadhatu, manaayatana, vinnanakhandha; different words, same reality. See 'Survey', p. 252. Alberto PS I'll try to answer your other questions in another post. Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125637 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is the characteristic of citta that can be known in daily life? upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 7/23/2012 1:10:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear friends, What is the characteristic of citta? All what appers, comes due to citta? But how citta can be known in daily life? I am listening Dhamma quite a bit last days, but the right understanding of the characteristic of citta never arises. What is the way to understand this characteristic of citta? Best wishes Lukas ================================== Do you not know, i.e., directly experience (and not just infer), when you are seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling a bodily sensation, thinking of something, or experiencing an emotion or a mental quality? Each of these observed cognitive events is an instance of knowing an object, of citta/vi~n~nana. (And your observations of them are also instances of citta.) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125638 From: "azita" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:08 am Subject: Re: What is the characteristic of citta that can be known in daily life? gazita2002 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email hallo Lucas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear friends, > What is the characteristic of citta? azita: Citta is that which experiences object eg visible object, sound etc. Because of wrong understanding/ignorance we mistake these experiences for 'me or my experience'. > > All what appers, comes due to citta? But how citta can be known in daily life? azita: citta can only be known when sati and panna are highly developed. It takes a long time, depending on accumulations of panna developed in previous lifetimes, to know citta, however we can start now by understanding theoretically that seeing now is citta, hearing now is citta. Citta is daily life, arising, experiencing object, falling away only to be immediately followed by another completely new citta, which is conditioned in part, by the falling away of the last citta. > > I am listening Dhamma quite a bit last days, but the right understanding of the characteristic of citta never arises. What is the way to understand this characteristic of citta? azita: firstly, I think that trying to have right understanding is the very thing that prevents it from arising. The path to developing right understanding goes along with detachment not attachment to having awareness arise when we want. Studying, listening, contemplating the dhamma and sanna will remember over time, that this present moment is jst another arising and falling away of citta, cetasika and rupa. No'we' to do anything. patience, courage and good cheer, azita Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125639 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] packing lists. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Lukas & Alberto, >________________________________ > From: Nina van Gorkom >I liked to read about your packing list. Give us more! > >This reminded me of a Dhamma friend Icaro who had to pack for bootcamp: ... S: Yes, I remember Icaro's packing:-) I had it in mind too..... I'm beginning to pull out some warm clothes that I'll need in Poland which I don't need in Asia..... hat, scarf....maybe gloves....rather like in Sydney now - cool. As I pull out items,my mind flits between thoughts of Poland and thoughts of my incredible swim this morning. As I got ready first thing this morning to swim out with a group of friends in our pink caps on a rather cold, grey and wet winter morning, we spotted a huge whale with her calf in the bay. We swam closer and the mother swam towards us. For an hour she swam amongst us, underneath us, herding us together ever so gently. Extraordinary. She must have been about the size of a greyhound bus and so very gentle and playful, circling around and coming closer everytime we moved away to give her more space. Was it just visible object that was seen? Yes, just like now. What a lot of thinking, dreaming and excitement follows the moments of seeing. No wonder the Buddha always started with the eye-door. We attach such huge importance to what is seen, immediately so lost in the stories about winter clothes, whales and beautiful sights. Some may wonder whether there can be awareness whilst touching the whale, swimming by its side and so on. Anytime at all. Only hardness that is touched, only visible object which is seen, only attachment on account of these experiences. And now back to my packing again: Just made a couple of copies of the first few pages of the Patthana for Lukas. I don't have a scanner, but I can carry them. Would Lukas & Alberto like a copy of "The conditionality of Life" - I have spares, but maybe they already have it. I need to keep my luggage as light as possible - a long journey. Dilemmas, decisions.....more thinking, slight anxiety, dosa even whilst thinking of a gift for friends. Different realities - a wholesome conventional action with different cittas and a long story about a whale with moments of wise reflection. We just can't tell from the situation or act. "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"? No, I only have one copy and they can download it... What else, recording equipment, more thinking, more sense experiences, more conditioned dilemmas. No self to select or decide anything. I wonder if anyone has uploaded the pictures of the whales yet on our swim blog - must take a look (and send you all a link later). Curiosity, attachment.....all so very natural. Daily life! We don't need to avoid it. It can't be avoided - conditioned tendencies by natural decisive support condition. Not just accumulated in this lifetime but accumulated for aeons in the past. Worldly conditions - we have major flooding problems in our flat, but then this experience with the whales.....gain and loss, pleasure and sadness all day long. Only the anagami is unaffected by sense experiences and has no more anxiety or fear. Yes, with the whale - excitement, fear, seeing of visible object, occasional wise reflection and so life goes on. Round and round as Azita said. Packing: more sense experiences, more thinking, more namas, more rupas......all completely conditioned. Never a self to make any selection at all. Understanding the "all", just the dhammas arising and falling away now is the lifting of the burden of samsara. Metta Sarah ========== Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125640 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] packing lists. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, >________________________________ > From: sarah abbott As I got ready first thing this morning to swim out with a group of friends in our pink caps on a rather cold, grey and wet winter morning, we spotted a huge whale with her calf in the bay. We swam closer and the mother swam towards us. For an hour she swam amongst us, underneath us, herding us together ever so gently. Extraordinary. She must have been about the size of a greyhound bus and so very gentle and playful, circling around and coming closer everytime we moved away to give her more space. > >Was it just visible object that was seen? Yes, just like now. .... S: Here's a link for anyone interested: http://pacificjules.typepad.com/pacific-jules/2012/07/24072012-a-whale-of-a-day-\ .html Sarah Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125641 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:18 pm Subject: "More kusala means less murders" (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125586) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > > > > RE: Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > > > > > =============== > > > > > > J: The Visuddhimagga (Ch XXIII) gives, as the first among the `benefits in developing understanding', the removal of various defilements. It explains this as follows: > > > > "2. Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This starts with the delimitation of mentality-materiality. Then one of the benefits of the supramundane development of understanding is the removal, at the path moment, of the various defilements beginning with the fetters." > > > > Note that the first defilement to be removed is wrong view, and that this starts with understanding the difference between nama and rupa. > > RE: I think I am a little confused as to how this applies to the current discussion. Could you make it a little more clear for me? > =============== J: It's a comment on the proposition that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder". The passage explains that when there is the development of the path, the akusala that is first diminished is the wrong view of self; and that development begins with the understanding of the difference between namas and rupas. And as we know, the development proceeds from there to an understanding of dhammas as anicca, dukkha and anatta. It is when dhammas are more clearly known as conditioned phenomena that the deeply entrenched idea of self is broken down. In short, with the development of the path there may or may not be less gross akusala in one's daily life; but there will certainly be a clearer understanding of dhammas and less attachment to the idea of self. Hoping that explains the relevance of the passage to the current discussion. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125642 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:34 pm Subject: "More kusala, less murder" II (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125586) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: I'm not sure just what that statement ("more kusala cittas should lead to less murder") means. Less murder by whom? How is "less murder" known? > > > > Perhaps it means something like, "as more kusala is developed (by a given individual), there will be more deeds performed (by that individual) that are accompanied by kusala and fewer deeds that are accompanied by akusala". > > RE: It can't just be "accompanied by" if in fact certain acts cannot take place with kusala - it's a little more causal than that I think. > =============== J: So what is your understanding of the statement, "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder"? > =============== > > J: That may be generally so, but it does not show a particular relationship between dhammas and conventional actions. > > RE: Well so far you have not taken up my "proof" that this is the case - that murder cannot arise in the face of kusala. That is a particular relationship between kusala and murder. Otherwise I think we'd have to say that we can have a murder accompanied by kusala, which is clearly absurd. If that is indeed absurd, there is a particular relationship right there I think. Why avoid the obvious? > =============== J: The question, at its simplest, is whether akusala cittas can arise among, or intermingled with (but of course not at exactly the same instant as), cittas that are kusala. To my understanding, the answer is certainly yes. For example, swatting a pesky mosquito while listening intently to a teaching on Dhamma :-)) Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125643 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:51 pm Subject: Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > S: There are just the arising of various rupas in kalapas, separated by other kalapas by space, pariccheda akasa (space) rupa which depends on these kalapas for its arising. Any 'base' such as heart-base, is simply another rupa arising in another kalapa, again separated by akasa rupa from the next kalapa which is separated in this way. We cannot say that in actuality rupas arise in a base or another set of rupas. As you suggest, this kind of space is conditioned/dependent on these various kalapas of rupas. There is also the open space where there are no kalapas of rupas, but let's no go there now:-) Well I would be interested to know about that sometime - it sounds pretty intriguing... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125644 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: ...Seriously, what date is the wedding? Perhaps you could come for part of the trip - your own quick escape and Dhamma honeymoon? It would be wonderful to meet you and any other old friends at such an occasion. Thank you, I would certainly love to come. I don't think it will work out - but I will take a good look at it again... > Regardless, kusala akusala vipaka all the time, even as we write.....seeing, hearing and so on....all realities to be known now. Yes, and a lot of it - good to remember... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125645 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:15 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: You are taking as your starting point a conventional action that you characterise as either a kusala or an akusala one. > > But the teaching given by the Buddha does not concern itself with the conventional nature of actions. It talks about kusala kamma patha and akusala kamma patha. Kamma (literally, `action') is declared to be the momentary mental factor of cetana (intention). The Buddha often does not make such a distinction, but talks about the taking of life, the existence of beings and the future experience of a murderer in future lives, without making such a distinction. > The commission of kamma patha does not have any particular conventional counterpart. For example, while a murder may be committed by an act of stabbing, it may also be committed by giving a coded instruction over the phone. So no general rule can be drawn as to the relationship between conventional actions and dhammas. I think what you're saying is that 'murder' cannot be confined to just one or two particular examples, not that 'murder' as a general rule cannot be connected to the dhammas of murderous intent and action. I think the general rule can be drawn, rather than the specifics, since they are multifarious. But murder is murder, whether by knife or phone. There's no distinction there in intention or in the fact that an action has to be committed to carry out the murderous intent and create complete kamma patha. A 'being' is murdered at the end of the process, and the death citta appears for that 'being.' > > =============== > J: In the teachings, there's no such thing as being "in a kusala/akusala mental state" in any sense other than a momentary one. The mental state may vary from one mind-door process to the next. So there may be kusala in the midst of a conventional action that we would consider to be an unwholesome one, and akusala in the midst of a wholesome one. No rule, no particular relationship. I'm in no position to challenge you on that, but my understanding of cittas, not just rupas, is that they do not arise randomly, but in some sort of orderly relationship. Not to say that a particular moment of this or that many not arise, but in general for murder to be carried out there has to be an organized preponderance of akusala cetana that is sustained or repeated enough to carry out the completion of kamma patha. > J: The performing of conventional actions that are `unwholesome' does not preclude the arising of kusala mental states in the midst of (even very strong) akusala. Even for someone who has not heard the teachings, for example, there can be moments of `knowing' that one is causing (undeserved) hurt to another, that one's conduct breaches conventional norms, that one is taking out one's own `issues' on another, and so on. Sure, I agree, but again, I think the preponderance of moments must be akusala or the akusala kamma patha would be interrupted. It can't take place in a single moment, or a few random moments. There has to be a concerted movement towards kamma patha, or it would not take place. > > =============== > > > "Mind is the forerunner of states [J: dhammas]. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. > > > > > > Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves." > > > > RE: A "forerunner" creates what comes after it. Kusala mental states are the forerunner of kusala speech and actions. That is my point. > > =============== > > J: Note that the text does not speak of kusala or akusala actions. It talks about acting with kusala/akusala mental states. A forerunner is not an accompaniment. It is that which comes before and leads to what comes next. Intent leads to like action, for instance, in many cases. > > =============== > > RE: A kusala mental state will not lead to a man mercilessly beating his horse. Would it ever? No. They cannot coincide because cruelly beating one's horse is inherently akusala in itself. > > =============== > > J: But a man who is mercilessly beating his horse (with akusala mental states) may have kusala moments among the akusala ones. There is no principle of Dhamma to the contrary. Having a moment of remorse or awareness arise that is not strong enough to interrupt the pattern of akusala is not a breaking of the rule, but an exception to the rule. You can't have a steady horse-beating if there are not many akusala mental states arising to support the beating. I think that the fact that a bit of kusala can be interspersed is pretty much beside the point. There is not just random kusala and akusala arising hither and yon while concerted actions take place, I don't think. > > =============== > > RE: Washing the dishes is not especially good or evil, just a task, but if kusala is arising, the dishes will be washed in a benign and wholesome manner, so the kusala mental state influences and infiltrates the conventional action. They are not disassociated from each other. > > =============== > > J: The idea of the mental state "infiltrating and influencing the conventional action" is not part of the teaching of the Buddha. It's also not the teaching, as far as I can tell, to say that actions in the world have nothing to do with the path, and only mental states do. The Buddha never said that and he taught on many occasions the specific activities to engage in or avoid, not just mental states. You can't take all of those definite pronouncements about actions and lay all of that off onto mental states, if indeed you want to take note of all of the teachings. > In terms of the dhammas spoken of by the Buddha, the only difference between the conventional action of washing the dishes with kusala mental state (unlikely, but theoretically possible, I suppose!) and washing the dishes with akusala mental state is a difference in the ethical quality of the citta and accompanying mental factors at the moments of kusala; the other arising dhammas are the same. Maybe so for washing the dishes, but certainly not for beating one's horse. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125646 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:26 pm Subject: Life-events and the development of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: Yes, it's the perspective (understanding) that counts, not the extent to which there is kusala in one's daily life. Well, ultimately I would agree with that too. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125647 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:28 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: The doing of a conventionally unwholesome deed is not, as a matter of doctrine, a bar to the development of the path. > > In practice, of course, those who are interested in the development of the path are also likely to be interested in developing kusala of all kinds in their daily life. Do you think that a butcher who spends most of his day chopping off chickens' heads has the same chance to develop the path as someone who is doing something not involving killing? Perhaps so...? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125648 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E & all, >________________________________ > From: Robert E >Thank you, I would certainly love to come. I don't think it will work out - but I will take a good look at it again... .... S: The latest itinerary as organised by Lukas below. Everyone's keeping him busy with changes of plans and he's busy negotiating with hotel managers and so on. Nothing is too much trouble for Lukas and no talk of depressions or addictions from him these days:-))) Metta Sarah ********** 9-17th September Schedule for Dhamma trip to Poland ================== Day 0 - 9th of September (Sunday) Picking up Acharn and cooming Thai friends and friends cooming from different sides of the World. Travelling to the Hotel in Olsztyn by rented mini-buses. (here the possibility to travel by one bus). Some Dhamma talks in the bus if possible. Cooming to the Hotel. Dinner. Rest. ============ Day 1 - 10th of September (Monday) 07.00 - 08.30 b'fast in hotel, 08.30 - 09.30 free-time 09.30 - 11.30 Discussion outside or in conference room 12.00 - 14.00 lunch buffet in hotel 14.00 - 16.00 rest and free time 16.00 - 18.00 discussion 18.30 - 20.00 light dinner in hotel ============ Day 2 - 11th of September (Thuesday) 06.30 - 07.30 b'fast in hotel 08.30 - 10.00 discussion 10.30 - 11.30 visit old town of Olsztyn 12.00 - 14.00 lunch in Olsztyn Old Town restaurant. rest 16.00 - 18.00 discussion 18.30 - 20.00 light diner in hotel ============= Day 3 - 12th of September (Wednesday) 06.30 - 07.30 b'f 08.00 - 11.00 excursion to forest. Kierzbun horse farm. Walks in the forest. 12.00 - 14.00 typical Polish meal in Polish tourist resort farmhouse style in Kierzbun. 15.00 - coming back to the hotel 16.00 - 18.00 discussion in hotel 18.30 - light dinner in hotel ============================= Day 4 - 13th of September (Thursday) 06.30 - 07.30 b'f 08.30 - 10.00 discussion 10.00 - 11.30 walk around the lake, rest 11.30 - 13.30 lunch buffet in hotel rest 16.00 - 18.00 discussion 18.30 - 20.00 light dinner ============================= Day 5 - 14th of September (Friday) 06.30 - 07.30 b'f 08.30 - 10.00 discussion 10.00 - 11.30 excursion to the Dadaj lake, touristic resort. 11.30 - 13.30 lunch in hotel by the lake. rest in this resort 16.00 - 18.00 discussion in Dadaj Hotel restaurant. 18.30 - 19:30 light dinner in Dadj Hotel. 19:30 - Coming back to Olsztyn Hotel 20:45 - rest in a hotel. ============================= Day 6 - 15th of September (Saturday) 06.30 - 07.30 b'f 08.30 - 10.30 moring discussions with polish friends in a hotel conferency room. 11.30 - 13.30 lunch in hotel rest 16.00 - 18.00 afternoon disccusions with polish friends. 18.30 - 19:30 light dinner. =========================== Day 7 - 16th of September (Sunday) One day excursion to very beautiful curort by the beautiful river. 06.30 - 07.30 b'f 08.30 - Setting off to Krutyn, beautiful turistic curort in a heart of Mazury(region of Poland with a lot of lakes and typical colder forests) 10:30 - 11:30 - Dhamma discussions, by the beutiful river. Very quiet there. Or if weather not good inside the restaurant by the river with view on the flowing river. 11.45 - 12:45 lunch in Hotel Mazur-Syrenka restaurant. rest. Walking into a befutiful forest. 15:00 - Coming back to Olsztyn hotel. 17.00 - 18.30 afternoon disccusions. 18:30 - 19:30 lighter dinner in hotel. =================== Day 8 -17th of September (Monday) 6:30-7:30 b'fast in the hotel. Setting off to Warsaw airport. =================== Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125649 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] packing lists. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, What an exciting story, I looked at the link. I can't help liking stories, dreams. Nina. Op 24-jul-2012, om 4:25 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > As I got ready first thing this morning to swim out with a group of > friends in our pink caps on a rather cold, grey and wet winter > morning, we spotted a huge whale with her calf in the bay. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125650 From: "Alberto" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: arammana paccaya sprlrt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Lukas, > L: But if we must render the most accurate meaning for citta, its characteristic what it will be? that which thinks of, that knows an object, that what experience? Of course only panna can actually know (pajaanati) the meaning of a reality, avijja can't, and yet citta/vinnana arising with avijja knows the object (vijaanati), even realities, two different verbs for knowing, highlighting their difference and helping to avoid mixing up panna with avijja. > L: In case of arammanapaccaya, the visible object (base) conditions cakkhuvi~n~nanadhatu tamsampayutta dhammaa. So it's the visible object, the vana color that conditions seeing consciousness associated with other dhammas, cetasikas, like phassa. So in the case of arammana paccaya do u think this is mainly cakkhuvi~n~nana dhatu mainly or only conditioned by visible object? All cetasikas arising with citta experience the same object, but only citta is the faculty (manindriya) overseeing this process, the leader, like eye-sense (cakkhupasaada) is another faculty overseeing seeing, along with cakkhuvinnana, manindriya again. Sanna remembers the object, phassa contacts it, vedana (another faculty) feels it...; they must also be conditioned by it. Alberto Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:55 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, The sutta then speaks about the third watch of the night during which he realized the four noble Truths. He who had listened to the teachings of previous Buddhas and had accumulated mindfulness and understanding during countless lives must have cultivated satipaììhåna also during the third watch of that night. While sitting under the Bodhi-tree he must have been mindful of all realities such as visible object, seeing, sound, hearing, hardness, softness, feelings and other phenomena. Only thus could he have attained enlightenment. For us too, mindfulness and understanding of nåma and rúpa appearing now is the sure way to enlightenment. The sutta continues: “Then with the mind composed... fixed, immovable, I directed my mind to the destruction of the cankers. I understood as it really is: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the stopping of dukkha, this is the course leading to the stopping of dukkha. I understood as it really is: These are the cankers, this is the arising of the cankers, this is the stopping of the cankers, this is the course leading to the stopping of the cankers. Knowing this thus, seeing thus, my mind was freed from the canker of sense-pleasures, and my mind was freed from the canker of becoming, and my mind was freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom the knowledge came to me: I am freed; and I comprehended: Destroyed is birth, brought to a close is the Brahma-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or such. This, brahman, was the third knowledge attained by me in the last watch of the night; ignorance was dispelled, knowledge arose, darkness was dispelled, light arose, even as I abided diligent, ardent, self-resolute.” “Done is what was to be done” we just read. The Bodhisatta had done all that had to be done in order to become a Sammåsambuddha who could through his teaching of Dhamma help others to be freed from birth. He really had done his utmost in order to attain the goal for which he had lived as a Bodhisatta during aeons. How had he discovered the four noble Truths? He had seen the conditions for the arising of all phenomena and had understood how the cycle of birth and death is conditioned by ignorance and craving. He had seen how there can be an end to birth, old age, sickness and death: through making an end to ignorance and craving. He who thoroughly knew all conditioned dhammas realized at the moment of enlightenment the unconditioned dhamma: nibbåna. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125652 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:41 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125645) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: You are taking as your starting point a conventional action that you characterise as either a kusala or an akusala one. > > > > But the teaching given by the Buddha does not concern itself with the conventional nature of actions. It talks about kusala kamma patha and akusala kamma patha. Kamma (literally, `action') is declared to be the momentary mental factor of cetana (intention). > > RE: The Buddha often does not make such a distinction, but talks about the taking of life, the existence of beings and the future experience of a murderer in future lives, without making such a distinction. > =============== J: Talk about killing, stealing and sexual misconduct, etc, is, to my understanding, talk about akusala kamma patha and not about conventional notions of the those things (although there may of course be a fair degree of correspondence between the two). > =============== > RE: I think what you're saying is that 'murder' cannot be confined to just one or two particular examples, not that 'murder' as a general rule cannot be connected to the dhammas of murderous intent and action. I think the general rule can be drawn, rather than the specifics, since they are multifarious. But murder is murder, whether by knife or phone. There's no distinction there in intention or in the fact that an action has to be committed to carry out the murderous intent and create complete kamma patha. A 'being' is murdered at the end of the process, and the death citta appears for that 'being.' > =============== J: Perhaps it would be useful at this stage if you could re-state the general rule you are proposing. I was not aware you had suggested a general rule that would apply equally to murder committed by plunging a knife into the victim and to murder committed by speaking on the phone. I would like to hear your general rule again. > =============== > RE: [M]y understanding of cittas, not just rupas, is that they do not arise randomly, but in some sort of orderly relationship. Not to say that a particular moment of this or that many not arise, but in general for murder to be carried out there has to be an organized preponderance of akusala cetana that is sustained or repeated enough to carry out the completion of kamma patha. > =============== J: Yes, a preponderance of akusala cetana; but there may also be a sprinkling of kusala. I would like to hear how your general rule allows for that. > =============== > RE: I think the preponderance of moments must be akusala or the akusala kamma patha would be interrupted. It can't take place in a single moment, or a few random moments. There has to be a concerted movement towards kamma patha, or it would not take place. > =============== J: Again, how does your general rule allow for the moments of kusala in amongst the akusala? > =============== > RE: Having a moment of remorse or awareness arise that is not strong enough to interrupt the pattern of akusala is not a breaking of the rule, but an exception to the rule. You can't have a steady horse-beating if there are not many akusala mental states arising to support the beating. I think that the fact that a bit of kusala can be interspersed is pretty much beside the point. > =============== J: If the fact that kusala mind states can be interspersed among strong akusala mind states is beside the point, then I must have missed your point :-)). So is your point that an action that is clearly one of, for example, deliberate killing is bound to be accompanied by a preponderance of akusala cittas? Perhaps you could explain the significance of this observation to the development of the path. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125653 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:43 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125647) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: The doing of a conventionally unwholesome deed is not, as a matter of doctrine, a bar to the development of the path. > > > > In practice, of course, those who are interested in the development of the path are also likely to be interested in developing kusala of all kinds in their daily life. > > RE: Do you think that a butcher who spends most of his day chopping off chickens' heads has the same chance to develop the path as someone who is doing something not involving killing? Perhaps so...? > =============== J: There is no required minimum level of sila in order for an understanding of dhammas to begin to develop. Everyone starts from where they are. So for example, if a person who earns his living by slaughtering chickens hears the teachings on the development of the path for the first time in his present life and, by virtue of understanding accumulated in previous lives, understands what he has heard, his current occupation would be no obstacle to the arising of awareness of dhammas. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125654 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:03 am Subject: Re: packing lists. kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah, --- > S: ... For an hour she swam amongst us, underneath us, herding us together ever so gently. Extraordinary. She must have been about the size of a greyhound bus and so very gentle and playful, circling around and coming closer everytime we moved away to give her more space. ... --- KH: That's about the most extraordinary adventure I can imagine. You were very brave. I have always known you and your pink cap friends were brave, but deliberately swimming with wales in the ocean must take nerves of steel. A few years ago I was sitting on my surfboard when two wales quietly swam by. It was a great thrill to be within thirty metres of such huge wild animals, but there but there was no way I was getting any closer! ----- > S: Was it just visible object that was seen? Yes, just like now. ----- KH: Now you want us to swim up to a conditioned dhamma and see there is no self! No way! Bring back the wales! :-) Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125655 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:05 am Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: I think I've already covered this. Moments of kusala can arise in the midst of moments of strong akusala, and vice versa. Hope that's clear enough for you :-)) > > > =============== > > RE: Is it possible for a kusala mental factor to lead one to akusala kamma vipaka? > > =============== > > J: Kusala intention/kamma cannot lead to akusala vipaka. Well we agree on that. ... > J: There cannot be kusala and akusala at precisely the same moment. But the conventional act of killing a chicken spans innumerable citta moments, not all of which may be akusala. I think I already answered this point as well, but I believe that intentional killing will not take place if there is not a preponderance of akusala arising during the course of the act. I think this is obvious. ... > J: Intentionally taking life is akusala kamma patha. If the death of another is caused but the necessary intention is not present (e.g., it happens by accident), then it's not akusala kamma patha. And in that case it's also not murder. Murder is by definition intentional killing. There's no argument that accidental death has got the same kamma as murder, if any. > > =============== > > RE: The act of purposely taking another's life is always wrong according to the Buddha. So, a certain person may be very nice and happy and kill chickens for a living, but the Buddha would not consider that kusala. > > =============== > > J: Agreed. The mental moments that constitute any part of the deliberate taking of life would not be kusala (but there could be kusala moments intermingled). I don't see the significance of kusala moments intermingled. I understand the point, but surely it takes many akusala moments arising with accumulations of hatred and murderous intent to cause murderous kamma patha to be completed. I doubt there's any argument about that. I agree that there is a significance, not re. kamma patha, but re. awakening, with regard to kusala arising in the midst of akusala. It is that kusala that pops up that may open the possibility of reconsidering akusala actions and taking a different path. > > =============== > > RE: At best it is the result of ignorance, which is akusala. Do you disagree? > > =============== > > J: Ignorance and dosa would be involved. > > > =============== ... > J: There does not have to be speaking the truth in order to constitute right speech; restraint from wrong speech suffices, if at that moment the kusala mental factor (that is given the name "right speech") arises. I would not agree that "right speech" refers solely to the corresponding mental factor. Both sutta and commentary that I have seen [not that I've seen everything by a long shot] are very clear that kamma patha has three levels - mental, speech and physical action, and that without physical expression one doesn't have kamma patha. So kamma patha of speech, I believe it follows, must be completed through the speech act for it to constitute full right speech - the kamma patha of speech, and if the mental factor arises but is not acted upon, it is not completed right speech. There are many instances when positive speech will have an effect on a conversation, for instance, and perhaps lead to 'hearing the Dhamma' or some other kusala result, and if only the mental factor arises and no speech takes place, the "Right Speech" will not have its positive impact, though it may be nice for the arising citta to enjoy... Buddha spoke against gossip, dissension and other actual *acts of speech* that would have an effect on the community, and promoted truthful speech and speaking of the Dhamma, among other kusala acts of speech. It would be an enormous stretch to suggest that such varieties of speech that affect groups of beings [monks for instance] should only be thought of as mental factors, and the physical expression that causes actual dissension or teaching and awareness to take place, spreading of Dhamma, etc., to somehow be inconsequential. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125656 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:26 am Subject: Kusala and akusala activities (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125645) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > > > > "Mind is the forerunner of states [J: dhammas]. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. > > > > > > > > Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves." > > > > > > RE: A "forerunner" creates what comes after it. Kusala mental states are the forerunner of kusala speech and actions. That is my point. > > > =============== > > > > J: Note that the text does not speak of kusala or akusala actions. It talks about acting with kusala/akusala mental states. > > RE: A forerunner is not an accompaniment. It is that which comes before and leads to what comes next. Intent leads to like action, for instance, in many cases. > =============== J: I don't think the interpretation of `forerunner' you give here is the proper reading in the context. The elaboration given by the text itself is that of `speaking or acting with a pure/impure mind'. It doesn't talk about intent leading to action in the sense of first resolving to do something and then doing the act. > =============== > > J: The idea of the mental state "infiltrating and influencing the conventional action" is not part of the teaching of the Buddha. > > RE: It's also not the teaching, as far as I can tell, to say that actions in the world have nothing to do with the path, and only mental states do. The Buddha never said that and he taught on many occasions the specific activities to engage in or avoid, not just mental states. You can't take all of those definite pronouncements about actions and lay all of that off onto mental states, if indeed you want to take note of all of the teachings. > =============== J: I suspect that the `specific activities to engage in or avoid' taught by the Buddha are kamma patha and not conventional activities. Perhaps we should look at some actual sutta passages that you have in mind. As far as the development of the path is concerned, the important thing is that what we take for conventional actions are nothing other than namas and rupas, and it is namas and rupas that are to be known, regardless of the ethical nature of the action currently being performed. This of course does not mean that we ignore the Buddha's teaching on the value of kusala kamma patha and the dangers of akusala kamma patha; it simply means that we do not confuse kusala of the level of sila with kusala of the level of satipatthana. > =============== > > J: In terms of the dhammas spoken of by the Buddha, the only difference between the conventional action of washing the dishes with kusala mental state (unlikely, but theoretically possible, I suppose!) and washing the dishes with akusala mental state is a difference in the ethical quality of the citta and accompanying mental factors at the moments of kusala; the other arising dhammas are the same. > > RE: Maybe so for washing the dishes, but certainly not for beating one's horse. > =============== J: Whether beating a horse or gently grooming a horse, it is the awareness of presently arising dhammas that constitutes the development of the path. The ethical quality of the conventional action being undertaken is irrelevant, in the sense that there is no principle of Dhamma which says that there is more likely to be awareness of a kusala citta (or during a conventionally `wholesome' action) than of an akusala one (or during a conventionally unwholesome action). (Again, this is not to suggest that kusala actions are not important; they are, but kusala sila does not constitute the development of the path.) Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125657 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:12 am Subject: Re: packing lists. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah, Ken H and all > > S: Was it just visible object that was seen? Yes, just like now. > ----- > > KH: Now you want us to swim up to a conditioned dhamma and see there is no self! No way! Bring back the wales! :-) Maybe Alex can add swimming with a whale to his favourite chestnuts such as driving into a tree and slamming your head into a door frame. Oh wait, you *did* do it....never mind. phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125658 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:28 am Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (3) philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear group, Chapter 7 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "It seems that we are all living together in the same world. However, in reality all the different ruupas (material phenomena) that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysend and mind, all those different phenomena, could not appear and be of such importance if there were no citta, the element that experiences them. Since citta experiences the objects that appear throug the sense-doors and through the mind-door, the world of each person is ruled by his citta. Which world is better: the world where a great deal of wholesomeness has been accumulated, so that kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity can arise, or the world of hatred, anger and displeasure? Different people may meet the same person and know the same things about him, but the world of each one of them will evolve with loving-kindness or with aversion, depending on the power of the citta that has accumulated different inclinations in the case of each person." (51) (end of passage) Phil adds: Which world is better? The world of wholesomeness of course. But the most important thing is to understand whatever reality arises. A. Sujin asked a kind of dangerous question above, because people who misunderstand Dhamma might believe that the point is to rush towards kusala without understanding that if kusala has not been accumulated, kusala will not result. Any intentional effort to have kusala will result in akusala through lobha and moha rooted cittas. We have to wisely understand whatever reality arises, if we run away from akusala we are just running deeper into akusala. Wisely understanding akusala is in itself a moment of kusala, that is the only way kusala can develop, through understanding. This is the sort of subtle point that made the Buddha hesitate to teach in the world because he knew, even thousands of years ago, that his teaching went against the way of the world now. How much more now in the age of personal accomplishment and striving for self fulfillment though 40 day retreats and so on? We are lucky to have a teacher who gets at the subtlety of Dhamma... I'm off to Canada, this series will continue in a few weeks, I won't have my book with me. phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125659 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:45 am Subject: Re: packing lists. truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil, >P:Maybe Alex can add swimming with a whale to his favourite chestnuts >such as driving into a tree and slamming your head into a door frame. >==================================== No matter what one says, we all behave as if external conceptual objects are really there. To try to act as if external "conceptual" objects don't exist and cannot be objects of the mind IMHO, is wrong and is constantly contradicted with every step and every usage of this "non existent" phenomena... With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125660 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:05 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > > Hallo RobE, Sarah, > > > > >Gee, I wish I could join you - would be a great opportunity as you say. My schedule won't allow it again this time, so I will have to aim for a future occasion in Thailand, when the vipaka is lined up correctly. Unless I can get my cousin to reschedule his wedding... > > azita: wish I could join in also Rob, however, its so far away from the land of Oz and besides, I have a ticket for Bkk for Sept26 - o well. > Cheap tickets that cannot be changed. Well, I guess we have to console ourselves that dhammas are wherever we are - so... But it would be nice to be there...! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125661 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:18 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: To my understanding, when the texts speak of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, etc., they are speaking of the akusala kamma patha of that name and not of conventional actions that may appear to correspond to those akusala kamma patha. I can understand how sexual desire or intention could be a mental state, but I do not see how "unlawful sexual intercourse," which is a physical kamma patha, could possibly be reduced to a mental state alone. I understand that you see it that way, but can you explain how "unlawful sexual intercourse" arises as a dhamma rather than as an act between conventional bodies in the world? Are you saying that the Buddha's admonition against stealing is really *only* an admonition against the intention to steal, a mental state, and has nothing at all to do with the taking of an object that does not belong to you? Are you saying that if the Buddha says that one should not associate with the wrong kind of people, and one should not play dice, that the "playing of dice" and the hanging around with the wrong people, are mental states and not actual conventional phenomena that occur in the world? If so, please explain to me how 'playing dice' can arise as a mental state? And please explain to me how the "taking of alcohol [other than for medicinal purposes]' is really *only* referring to a mental state. ... > J: Regarding, "when known unwholesome actions are present, one can know that they have been caused by unwholesome mental states", that `knowledge' is in fact a deduction based on a characterisation of the conventional action as an `unwholesome' one; and a deduction is a kind of thinking. Whereas the development of the path involves knowledge gained by direct experience of presently arisen dhammas. Since we are talking about the understanding of what is kusala and akusala and how it relates or does not relate to conventional actions, I don't think it is possible for any of this conversation to reference direct experience of dhammas. Yet we are talking about what one's understanding is. To say it is a deduction I think misses the connection that is clearly established, for instance, between akusala cetana and akusala physical kamma patha, such as the 'killing of a being' which is necessary for kamma patha to be completed. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125662 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] packing lists. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > >________________________________ > > From: sarah abbott > As I got ready first thing this morning to swim out with a group of friends in our pink caps on a rather cold, grey and wet winter morning, we spotted a huge whale with her calf in the bay. We swam closer and the mother swam towards us. For an hour she swam amongst us, underneath us, herding us together ever so gently. Extraordinary. She must have been about the size of a greyhound bus and so very gentle and playful, circling around and coming closer everytime we moved away to give her more space. > > > >Was it just visible object that was seen? Yes, just like now. > .... > > S: Here's a link for anyone interested: > http://pacificjules.typepad.com/pacific-jules/2012/07/24072012-a-whale-of-a-day-\ .html Wow, what a beauty that big guy is. Can't believe you got to play with him for an hour! Maybe just "visual object" but an awfully big one! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125663 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:31 pm Subject: Re: packing lists. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: That's about the most extraordinary adventure I can imagine. You were very brave. I have always known you and your pink cap friends were brave, but deliberately swimming with wales in the ocean must take nerves of steel. .... S: Actually the whale (and her calf) swam over to us and stayed with us, so very gently. She didn't want us to leave! In a few papers and on TV today....even in an English paper - a nice pic here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/picturesoftheday/9422892/Pictur\ es-of-the-day-24-July-2012.html?frame=2285928 ... > > S: Was it just visible object that was seen? Yes, just like now. > ----- > > KH: Now you want us to swim up to a conditioned dhamma and see there is no self! No way! Bring back the wales! :-) .... S: So lovely to be able to swim with whales and develop understanding at even these times.....still just 6 door-ways. A group of us was being interviewed by a TV reporter this morning - the others were talking about it as one of the greatest highlights in their lives and so on..... I was thinking, highlight of attachment, but didn't wish to spoil the party, so kept pretty quiet. Other swimmers who had missed out were distraught.....again they weren't interested in hearing about visible object and attachment. Just different dreams.... I'd woken up worrying about the water leaks in our apartment, half-heartedly gone off to swim in the cold and rain and then had these very different dreams about whales.... No one can stop seeing, hearing and the various kinds of dreaming which are conditioned from moment to moment. No one at all.....No one chooses to swim with or without a whale to be brave or not brave....just more dhammas, more elements in samsara....round and round. Metta Sarah =========== Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125664 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:33 pm Subject: "More kusala means less murders" (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > (125586) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > > > > RE: Rob K.'s statement that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder" sort of summarizes the point in question. If we could look at that, perhaps that would be a good place to clarify the issue. > > > > > > =============== > > > > > > > > J: The Visuddhimagga (Ch XXIII) gives, as the first among the `benefits in developing understanding', the removal of various defilements. It explains this as follows: > > > > > > "2. Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This starts with the delimitation of mentality-materiality. Then one of the benefits of the supramundane development of understanding is the removal, at the path moment, of the various defilements beginning with the fetters." > > > > > > Note that the first defilement to be removed is wrong view, and that this starts with understanding the difference between nama and rupa. > > > > RE: I think I am a little confused as to how this applies to the current discussion. Could you make it a little more clear for me? > > =============== > > J: It's a comment on the proposition that "more kusala cittas should lead to less murder". > > The passage explains that when there is the development of the path, the akusala that is first diminished is the wrong view of self; and that development begins with the understanding of the difference between namas and rupas. > > And as we know, the development proceeds from there to an understanding of dhammas as anicca, dukkha and anatta. > > It is when dhammas are more clearly known as conditioned phenomena that the deeply entrenched idea of self is broken down. > > In short, with the development of the path there may or may not be less gross akusala in one's daily life; but there will certainly be a clearer understanding of dhammas and less attachment to the idea of self. > > Hoping that explains the relevance of the passage to the current discussion. Yes, I understand what you are saying now and how it may be relevant. However, I think that as enough kusala develops to warrant any interest in development of the path, the likelihood of committing murder probably falls close to zero. Have you met any Dhamma students lately who are in jail for murder? I'm not sure if there are any, but I doubt it. So while the explicit development of the path may take a while to get around to ending defilements, the kusala involved in any degree of the path is the opposite sort of accumulations from those that would lead to murder. Would you disagree with this? I'm not saying it's impossible or that there is no intense akusala arising for someone interested in Dhamma, just that the accumulations are going to be generally quite different. I mean, I consider myself just a tiny baby on the path, but it would take an awfully horrifying situation to get me anywhere close to seriously harming someone. I might react violently in self-defense if someone were trying to kill me, but I'm aware enough, even as a tiny baby, not to want to do anything really terrible, even when I [very occasionally, ha ha] get angry. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125665 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:36 pm Subject: "More kusala, less murder" II (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: The question, at its simplest, is whether akusala cittas can arise among, or intermingled with (but of course not at exactly the same instant as), cittas that are kusala. > > To my understanding, the answer is certainly yes. > > For example, swatting a pesky mosquito while listening intently to a teaching on Dhamma :-)) Not to quibble, but I think it takes an awfully long spate [in dhamma terms] of akusala dhammas arising to lead to the kamma patha of killing a mosquito, though before and after may be very nice spates of kusala... In other words, I see the pattern of cittas as being more significant in what actions are produced than the single cittas as if they arose in total isolation. They certainly arise one at a time, but they are not isolated in kind from those that arise before and after. Something happens to cause the direction to deviate, but they do not arise as only single isolated random events, do they? For a mosquito to be swatted, what necessary sorts of dhammas must arise consistently enough to complete the act? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125666 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Wasteland epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E & all, > > >________________________________ > > From: Robert E > > >Thank you, I would certainly love to come. I don't think it will work out - but I will take a good look at it again... > .... > S: The latest itinerary as organised by Lukas below. Everyone's keeping him busy with changes of plans and he's busy negotiating with hotel managers and so on. Nothing is too much trouble for Lukas and no talk of depressions or addictions from him these days:-))) > > Metta > > Sarah > ********** Thank you - it is nice to see the itinerary in any case. Sounds like a wonderful trip! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125667 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:44 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: If the fact that kusala mind states can be interspersed among strong akusala mind states is beside the point, then I must have missed your point :-)). > > So is your point that an action that is clearly one of, for example, deliberate killing is bound to be accompanied by a preponderance of akusala cittas? Perhaps you could explain the significance of this observation to the development of the path. My point from the beginning has been that the choices and carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path, not separate from the path, and that the Buddha's prohibitions and admonitions against killing, wrong livelihood, wrong action, wrong speech, etc., are against activities in the world as well as the akusala mental states that would lead to such choices. In addition I have been trying to show that akusala mental states lead to negative actions in the conventional world, and that they work together rather than separately. The significance to the path is that if that is the case, one must watch what they do in the world and see that as part of the path in addition to understanding mental states that arise. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125668 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:01 pm Subject: Re: arammana paccaya szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Alberto, > Of course only panna can actually know (pajaanati) the meaning of a reality, avijja can't, and yet citta/vinnana arising with avijja knows the object (vijaanati), even realities, two different verbs for knowing, highlighting their difference and helping to avoid mixing up panna with avijja. L: So the goal is less avijja in life isnt it? vijjaanati, this is the first time I hear that word, can u say more Alberto? sa~n~njanati, or something like that I come across, this is I think wrong conceiving realities, like in first sutta of majjhima nikaya. There are two words, abhiny.., and pari.. something like this, this is in patisambidhamagga and first sutta of majjhima, what is a difference if u know what i mean? > All cetasikas arising with citta experience the same object, but only citta is the faculty (manindriya) overseeing this process, the leader, like eye-sense (cakkhupasaada) is another faculty overseeing seeing, along with cakkhuvinnana, manindriya again. > Sanna remembers the object, phassa contacts it, vedana (another faculty) feels it...; > they must also be conditioned by it. L: manindriya, the faculty of experiencing, cakkhu passadha ruppa faculty of eye. But manindriya, is more closer to manayatana, the faculty of each citta experiencing, or more to the mind-doorway? Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125669 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:07 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear azita, Rob E, and all > > azita: wish I could join in also Rob, however, its so far away from the land of Oz and besides, I have a ticket for Bkk for Sept26 - o well. > > Cheap tickets that cannot be changed. > > Well, I guess we have to console ourselves that dhammas are wherever we are - so... But it would be nice to be there...! L: This is kusala vipaka, to hear the Dhamma. And the javana that follows. Also decisions, plans, faith, worries..this are jaavanas. We think we can come, or we dont come...we think of..but no one can control the vipaka, like the enviroment that one lives, friends, cooming across dhamma. What i can say is just come. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125670 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (3) nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Thank you for the passage. Just a few remarks. Op 25-jul-2012, om 3:28 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > A. Sujin asked a kind of dangerous question above, because people > who misunderstand Dhamma might believe that the point is to rush > towards kusala without understanding that if kusala has not been > accumulated, kusala will not result. Any intentional effort to have > kusala will result in akusala through lobha and moha rooted cittas. > We have to wisely understand whatever reality arises, if we run > away from akusala we are just running deeper into akusala. ------- N: I agree with you. But A. Sujin would at the same time help people to see that all the perfections are indispensable for the attainment of enlightenment. Sure, that is very far off, but kusala can be accumulated. Remember the sutta: if this would not be possible, I would not tell you to do this. This morning I heard Kh sujin telling people about the perfections, and especially she mentioned mettaa. As to renunciation, she said that through satipa.t.thaana there can be detachment, from the self and from all akusala. Have a very good journey to Canada. I know you have mixed feelings, but I hope it will be fruitfull, with Dhamma. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125671 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:29 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 7. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, During our pilgrimage we paid respect at the place of the Buddha’s enlightenment. Adjoining the Bodhi-tree is a temple, built on top of a much older structure. It is said that the actual place of enlightenment was where now this temple is located. The original Bodhi-tree was destroyed, but from one of the roots grew a new sprout which has become the Bodhi-tree we see today. One can see pilgrims of different nationalities worshipping at the Bodhi-tree. Tibetans walk around the tree with their rosaries at all hours of the day and night, reciting “Om mani padme hum”. We walked around the tree thinking of the Buddha’s words to be mindful also when walking; the memory of his words at this place could be a condition for mindfulness of different nåmas and rúpas. Through the development of the Path he taught we can prove that the Buddha really attained enlightenment. We paid respect by chanting texts under the tree and later on we had Dhamma discussion. Leaves were falling down on us and we collected them. Around the Bodhi-tree small monuments have been erected commemorating how the Buddha spent the first weeks after his enlightenment. After he had become an omniscient Buddha he did not move away from the Bodhi-tree, but he stayed in the same position, seated cross-legged under the tree, for another week. We read in the “Atthasåliní”(Expositor 13, Introductory Discourse) that after having penetrated all dhammas he thought: “ ’To this has my vision pierced! See, even to this Law have I reached, who seeking and inquiring for more than a hundred thousand ages, for over four incalculable periods, here seated in this cross- legged posture (as on a throne) have expelled every conceivable corruption.’ And he sat on the ‘throne’ for yet seven days, reflecting on the Law he had penetrated....” ****** Nina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125672 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: Whatever happens has to happen. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Transcription of no. 16 of the 85 short talks on Dhamma: whatever happens has to happen: < Whatever happens has to happen. When something has happend we know that it has conditions for its occurring, even at this moment. If there is firm understanding of Dhamma and of cause and effect, of kamma that is cause and of vipaaka that is the result of kamma, can we be troubled? People tell many stories about events that occurred to them, but what happened had to happen. We cannot escape results, such as sickness occurring because of having eaten poison. Someone who understands Dhamma is steadfast when akusala kamma produces result. When we have more understanding of Dhamma, of cause and result, we can gradually become detached from the idea of self. There is no self at all. Seeing is seeing, it arises and falls away, and it is the same with hearing, thinking or happiness. They arise and then disappear completely, there is nothing left of them. They are only elements, dhammas. They arise because there are conditions for their arising and then they fall away. --------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125673 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:59 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125667) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: If the fact that kusala mind states can be interspersed among strong akusala mind states is beside the point, then I must have missed your point :-)). > > > > So is your point that an action that is clearly one of, for example, deliberate killing is bound to be accompanied by a preponderance of akusala cittas? Perhaps you could explain the significance of this observation to the development of the path. > > RE: My point from the beginning has been that the choices and carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path, not separate from the path, and that the Buddha's prohibitions and admonitions against killing, wrong livelihood, wrong action, wrong speech, etc., are against activities in the world as well as the akusala mental states that would lead to such choices. > =============== J: Regarding "the carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path", you seem to be saying that kusala of the level of sila is part of the path. Whereas to my understanding, only kusala of the level of awareness/vipassana bhavana constitutes path moment. Regarding "the Buddha's admonitions against killing, wrong livelihood, wrong action, wrong speech, etc., are against activities in the world as well as the akusala mental states that would lead to such choices", yes, most akusala kamma patha involves acts through body or speech doors, i.e., is not purely mental. No disagreement. But again, this is a matter of sila rather than bhavana. > =============== > RE: In addition I have been trying to show that akusala mental states lead to negative actions in the conventional world, and that they work together rather than separately. The significance to the path is that if that is the case, one must watch what they do in the world and see that as part of the path in addition to understanding mental states that arise. > =============== J: Regarding, "akusala mental states lead to negative actions in the conventional world", agreed; but more importantly, akusala mental states lead to the commission of akusala kamma patha. Regarding, "The significance to the path is that one must watch what they do in the world and see that as part of the path in addition to understanding mental states that arise", I do not understand the development of the path to involve `watching what one does in the world'. I think that avoiding akusala acts of body and speech is part of the sila, but not part of the bhavana, taught by the Buddha. Or do you have in mind some other kind of `watching'? You might find interesting the explanation by Bhikkhu Bodhi, from one of the introductions in his anthology "In the Buddha's Words", that I've copied at the end of this message (although I disagree with his reference to "other aids to enlightenment"). Jon << << << The word "kamma" literally means action, but technically it refers to volitional action. As the Buddha says: "It is volition (cetanaa) that I call kamma; for having willed (cetayitvaa), one acts by body, speech and mind." (AN III 415) Kamma thus denotes deeds that originate from volition. Such volition may remain purely mental, generating kamma that occurs as thoughts, plans, and desires; or it may come to expression outwardly through manifest bodily and verbal actions. ... On the basis of its ethical quality, the Buddha distinguishes kamma into two major categories: the unwholesome (akusala) and the wholesome (kusala). Unwholesome kamma is action that is spiritually detrimental to the agent, morally reprehensible, and potentially productive of an unfortunate rebirth and painful results. The criterion for judging an action to be unwholesome is its underlying motives, the three "roots" from which it springs. There are three unwholesome roots: greed, hatred and delusion. ... Wholesome kamma, on the other hand, is action that is spiritually beneficial and morally commendable; it is action that ripens in happiness and good fortune. Its underlying motives are the three wholesome roots: nongreed, nonhatred and nondelusion ... Whereas actions springing from the unwholesome roots are necessarily bound to the world of repeated birth and death, actions springing from the wholesome roots may be of two kinds, mundane and world-transcending. The mundane (lokiya) wholesome actions have the potential to produce a fortunate rebirth and pleasant results within the round of rebirths. The world-transcending or supramundane (lokuttara) wholesome actions -- namely, the kamma generated by developing the Noble Eightfold Path and the other aids to enlightenment -- lead to enlightenment and to liberation from the round of rebirths. This is the kamma that dismantles the entire process of kammic causation. >> >> >> Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125674 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:23 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > RE: Do you think that a butcher who spends most of his day chopping off chickens' heads has the same chance to develop the path as someone who is doing something not involving killing? Perhaps so...? > > =============== > > J: There is no required minimum level of sila in order for an understanding of dhammas to begin to develop. Everyone starts from where they are. > > So for example, if a person who earns his living by slaughtering chickens hears the teachings on the development of the path for the first time in his present life and, by virtue of understanding accumulated in previous lives, understands what he has heard, his current occupation would be no obstacle to the arising of awareness of dhammas. I don't disagree that such a moment could arise, and if it did, would not be stopped by his occupation. But if the man had that moment of understanding would he then continue to slaughter chickens? And if he did so, would he continue to develop kusala? It seems to me that a butcher who entered the path would either stop killing chickens or have an ongoing conflict. I don't think the Buddha ever proposed that the blind monk who stepped on the caterpillars would have been fine if he had stepped on the caterpillars purposely. And if someone keeps killing chickens intentionally after hearing the teachings, that would not be kusala, would it? Don't the teachings say to abstain from killing? On the other hand we all have various akusala arising all the time and all do actions we are not especially proud of. I agree with you that does not stop anyone from being on the path, although I think it may prevent progress past a certain point until such habits are dropped. Do you disagree? Can one go on killing chickens past the 1st, 2nd, 3rd stage of insight? Can the killing go on forever until one reaches the level where killing is impossible? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125675 From: "Alberto" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:00 am Subject: Re: arammana paccaya sprlrt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Lukas, > L: So the goal is less avijja in life isnt it? vijjaanati, this is the first time I hear that word, can u say more Alberto? sa~n~njanati, or something like that I come across, this is I think wrong conceiving realities, like in first sutta of majjhima nikaya. > There are two words, abhiny.., and pari.. something like this, this is in patisambidhamagga and first sutta of majjhima, what is a difference if u know what i mean? vijaanaati > vinnana (to cognize > consciousness) pajaanaati > panna (to know/to understand > knowledge/understanding) sanjaanaati > . . . . . . . . . abhijaanaati/abhinneya refers to panna when it arises to know the individual characteristic (sabhaavalakkhana) of a reality; parijaanaati/parinneya . . . . . . . . . . What would you put in place of the dots? Alberto Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125676 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (3) philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina > ------- > N: I agree with you. But A. Sujin would at the same time help people > to see that all the perfections are indispensable for the attainment > of enlightenment. Sure, that is very far off, but kusala can be > accumulated. Ph: But let's not forget that all kusala must be accompanied by alobha. Also, I was trying to google search to find tge term, but the word that means occurence (something like samana? sayama?), many factors must arise for kusala to arise. Remember the sutta: if this would not be possible, I > would not tell you to do this. Ph: Yes, I will never forget hearing Lidewijk (many many times) read this passage with such confidence. But this passage is not saying that we should be content with a slack understanding of what kusala really is, or be comfortable huding from understanding that what we take for kusala is oten or usually accompanied by attachment and is therefore akusala. Truthfulness is a perfection to. The moment we acknowledge that our "kusala" is not kusala is a moment of understanding (kusala.) > This morning I heard Kh sujin telling people about the perfections, > and especially she mentioned mettaa. As to renunciation, she said > that through satipa.t.thaana there can be detachment, from the self > and from all akusala. Ph: Yes, alobha with all kusala, including metta. Not so common as many people like to think but of course I am not saying metta doesn't arise, of course it does, often during the day, with alibha, then a moment later lobha can rush in again (so to speak) or not. And that can be understood. "Every monent can be perfectly instructive", words of Rob K's that I loved, then railed against, and niw love again. Will I rail against them again someday? No way to know. > Have a very good journey to Canada. I know you have mixed feelings, > but I hope it will be fruitfull, with Dhamma. Thanks Nina. These days I have developed many meditation techniques to help make me happy, energetic, peaceful. Many effective machinations and manipulations, rooted in lobha, and they will travel with me. But there are also monents of right understanding, awareness of how kusala can and does arise without my lobha-rooted intention, with detachment, anatta. Then a moment later lobha for the understanding, and understanding of that. Panna works its way very very gradually, its illumination of the events of daily life brightening very gradually, satipatthana has opportunities to arise, the adze handle is worn away very gradually. "What is the shortcut?I want a shortcut!" Tom asked, jokingly. "The shortcut is lobha," answered Ajahn, not a joke anymore... Phil > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125677 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:19 pm Subject: Kusala and akusala activities (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > > Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves." > > > > > > > > RE: A "forerunner" creates what comes after it. Kusala mental states are the forerunner of kusala speech and actions. That is my point. > > > > =============== > > > > > > J: Note that the text does not speak of kusala or akusala actions. It talks about acting with kusala/akusala mental states. It does not affirm or deny the idea that certain types of actions may be the expression of 'speaking or acting with pure mind.' If one is 'acting with pure mind' that person will not be murdering someone. That would be impossible, would it not? > > RE: A forerunner is not an accompaniment. It is that which comes before and leads to what comes next. Intent leads to like action, for instance, in many cases. > > =============== > > J: I don't think the interpretation of `forerunner' you give here is the proper reading in the context. The elaboration given by the text itself is that of `speaking or acting with a pure/impure mind'. That is confusing to me - please explain how the word "forerunner" refers to a concurrent mental state? In what sense would the word "forerunner" apply to such a situation? "Forerunner" means literally that which comes before and either sets the stage or creates what comes after. Is there a special meaning of "forerunner" that I am missing here? I mean one that makes sense of the meaning of the word. What is the mental state "coming before?" > It doesn't talk about intent leading to action in the sense of first resolving to do something and then doing the act. Well at the same time it doesn't seem to be making any sense that I can understand of the word "forerunner." Does it make sense to you? I mean, if a word is used it must have some meaning. What is the meaning of "forerunner" in this context? If I say that the appearance of John is always the "forerunner" of Edward coming by, there is an association between John showing up first and Edward surely following after. Is "forerunner" not used in that sense here? > > =============== > > > J: The idea of the mental state "infiltrating and influencing the conventional action" is not part of the teaching of the Buddha. > > > > RE: It's also not the teaching, as far as I can tell, to say that actions in the world have nothing to do with the path, and only mental states do. The Buddha never said that and he taught on many occasions the specific activities to engage in or avoid, not just mental states. You can't take all of those definite pronouncements about actions and lay all of that off onto mental states, if indeed you want to take note of all of the teachings. > > =============== > > J: I suspect that the `specific activities to engage in or avoid' taught by the Buddha are kamma patha and not conventional activities. Perhaps we should look at some actual sutta passages that you have in mind. That would involve me finding them. I don't have any at the moment, but I do remember quite clearly that there is a fairly detailed passage about alcohol in one sutta in which the Buddha makes very clear that alcohol for recreational use is not to be done, but that the necessary amount of alcohol in a tincture or remedy that has been medicinally prepared and prescribed is allowable. The conventional context is clear - if a doctor gives you medicine for an illness that happens to have alcohol in it because of its method of preparation, that is fine. It is for a lawful purpose. But if it is done for intoxication, then it is wrong and is not okay. I don't see any way that these conventional situations can be converted to pure mental states. None of it would make any sense in that context. It is clearly an application of Dhamma to conventional activities and substances. Of course the mental state is also involved, and can even be the forerunner, which is perfectly understandable. One will not drink alcohol for intoxication without the attachment, thoughts of drinking, and akusala cetana, etc., that are involved in causing such an action. But the mental state is associated with the action. Akusala kamma patha has its completion in physical action, not in the mere mental state. And that is made clear in the commentaries on kamma patha. They do not just speak of mental states, but of physical completion of the mental intention. Otherwise it is not complete kamma patha. I don't have those commentaries handy, but if you know where we can look at the commentaries on kamma patha and the three levels of expression of kamma patha, I'd love to look at them with you. I have quoted a full chart on kamma patha in the past. Anyway, here is Nyanatiloka, who starts with kamma = kusala or akusala cetana, and then goes on from there: "Kamma...correctly speaking denotes the advantageous and disadvantageous intentions kusala and akusala-cetanā and their concomitant mental properties... These kammical intentions kammacetanā become manifest as advantageous or disadvantageous actions by body kāya-kamma speech vacī-kamma and mind mano-kamma..." So Nyanatiloka acknowledges that such cetana manifests through physical speech and action! Here is Nyanatiloka again: "...intention cetanā o Bhikkhus, is what I call action cetanāham bhikkhave kammam vadāmi for through intention one performs the action by body, speech or mind..." Again, through cetana, one performs the action by body speech or mind. And again, Nyanatiloka speaks of the results of conventional actions that come from akusala cetana, but are produced through speech and body: "The disadvantageous actions are of 3 kinds, conditioned by greed, or hate, or confusion. "Killing... stealing... unlawful sexual intercourse... lying... slandering... rude speech... foolish babble, if practised, carried on, and frequently cultivated, leads to rebirth in hell, or amongst the animals, or amongst the ghosts ... He who kills and is cruel goes either to hell or, if reborn as man, will be short-lived. It would be hard to argue that "foolish babble" is a mental state rather than a type of physical speech and interaction. Likewise, rude speech, lying, slandering only take place as acts of speech about particular individuals in the world. They are not themselves mental states, but the manifestation of akusala cetana through physical speech acts and interactions with others. I don't think it's possible to argue otherwise, is it? > As far as the development of the path is concerned, the important thing is that what we take for conventional actions are nothing other than namas and rupas, and it is namas and rupas that are to be known, regardless of the ethical nature of the action currently being performed. So are we to know "foolish babble" as namas and rupas? That is fine if so. But that is seeing the real dhammas within the speech act, not denying that speech is taking place, whatever rupas that may involve. ... > J: Whether beating a horse or gently grooming a horse, it is the awareness of presently arising dhammas that constitutes the development of the path. The ethical quality of the conventional action being undertaken is irrelevant, in the sense that there is no principle of Dhamma which says that there is more likely to be awareness of a kusala citta (or during a conventionally `wholesome' action) than of an akusala one (or during a conventionally unwholesome action). As I have hypothesized before, I don't think that someone who has a preponderance of akusala is going to have much chance of the sustained moments of kusala necessary to awaken to anything. To resolve that question, we would have to discuss accumulations and tendencies, which I'm happy to do if you feel like it. It's not a matter of an individual kusala citta in my view, which if single, will quickly be swallowed up in the waves of akusala. > (Again, this is not to suggest that kusala actions are not important; they are, but kusala sila does not constitute the development of the path.) I think without some degree of accumulation of kusala and tendency towards more regular arising of kusala, the path is not going to be seen, let alone developed, so I think sila and whatever other kusala may be cultivated may be more important as a supporting condition for understanding than you may be suggesting here. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125678 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:28 pm Subject: Re: packing lists. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > A group of us was being interviewed by a TV reporter this morning - the others were talking about it as one of the greatest highlights in their lives and so on..... I was thinking, highlight of attachment, but didn't wish to spoil the party, so kept pretty quiet. Ha ha, that is quite droll. I can see how a Buddhist speaking up at the wrong time could definitely spoil the party. Now back to the dream which is already in progress... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125679 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:34 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Lukas. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: This is kusala vipaka, to hear the Dhamma. And the javana that follows. Also decisions, plans, faith, worries..this are jaavanas. We think we can come, or we dont come...we think of..but no one can control the vipaka, like the enviroment that one lives, friends, cooming across dhamma. What i can say is just come. Thanks, Lukas! It is a nice invitation! Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125680 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (3) nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Op 26-jul-2012, om 3:20 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Truthfulness is a perfection to. The moment we acknowledge that our > "kusala" is not kusala is a moment of understanding (kusala.) ------ N: Very well said, a good reminder. ------- > > Ph: ... "Every monent can be perfectly instructive", words of Rob > K's that I loved, then railed against, and now love again. Will I > rail against them again someday? No way to know. ------- N: I heard this morning: all the events of life can remind us to develop satipatthaana. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125681 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:11 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 8. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, According to the “Visuddhimagga”(Ch XXII, 19-21), those who have attained enlightenment, after the phala-cittas (fruition- consciousness which are the vipåkacittas produced by the magga-citta, the path-consciousness) have fallen away, review the path, review fruition, review the defilements abandoned, review the defilements still remaining and review nibbåna. The arahat does not review any remaining defielments since they all have been eradicated. Thus, he reviews the path: ”So this is the path I have come by.” He reviews fruition: “This is the blessing I have obtained.” He reviews the defilements that have been abandoned: ”These are the defilements abandoned in me.” He reviews nibbåna: ”This is the dhamma that has been penetrated by me as object.” The Buddha, after his enlightenment, also reviewed his attainments. We read in the “Vinaya” (Mahåvagga I, 1.1): “At one time the awakened one, the Lord, being recently full awakened, was staying at Uruvelå on the bank of the river Nerañjarå at the foot of the Tree of Awakening. Then the Lord sat cross-legged in one (posture) for seven days at the foot of the tree of Awakening experiencing the bliss of freedom.” We read that he contemplated the “causal uprising” of phenomena (paticca samuppåda) in direct and reverse order. He contemplated the “arising of this entire mass of dukkha”, of birth, old age, dying, grief, sorrow and lamentation, suffering, dejection and despair. And he contemplated the stopping of this entire mass of dukkha. About the following weeks after his enlightenment we read in the “Atthasåliní”: “Then after those seven days, he rose from the throne and stood gazing at it for seven days without blinking his eyes, thinking, ‘On this throne I have indeed attained omniscience.’ Hence this doubt occurred to the devas: ’Surely today Siddhattha must still have something to accomplish, for he has not abandoned attachment to the throne.’ The Teacher, knowing their doubt, in order to quiet it, rose immediately into the sky and displayed the Twin Miracle.... Thus having displayed the Twin Miracle he descended from the sky and for seven days walked to and fro between the Throne and the place where he had stood....” ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125682 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:16 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Azita, Good to hear from you and glad to hear your family are all doing well......you're obviously having fun being a Gran:-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > azita: wish I could join in also Rob, however, its so far away from the land of Oz and besides, I have a ticket for Bkk for Sept26 - o well. > Cheap tickets that cannot be changed. > > I think Sarah, that you will not be in Bkk by the time I get there, have I got that right? Do you know if AS will be back in Thailand by then. ..... S: You have it all right - we'll just be in Bkk for a week end August (arranged before Poland came up). We're going to and from Poland from Hong Kong. K.Sujin will be back in Bkk on 18th Sept, so she'll be well rested when you arrive. I think our friend from Vietnam said she was also visiting Bkk end Sept. How long will you be staying in Thailand? .... > > All good here, mostly, pleasant winter days in the tropics. Attended 5yo grandsons birthday yesterday, lots of party food, not one moment of eeven thinking about dhamma. 6month old granddaughter is learning to blow bubbles, she's a cute little thing. > Round and round we go .......... :) ... S: Truly round and round....round and round the mulberry bush, round and round in samsara, getting prickled as we go....! Blowing bubbles and experiencing burst bubbles, party food and delicacies, sicknesses and starvation.....all the worldly conditions on and on until the wisdom and equanimity has developed to see the mirage, the bubbles, the conjuring tricks for what they are. We are indeed fortunate to have heard the Truth about realities....and to appreciate it. Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125683 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > S: Such understanding has to develop gradually. For example, the 1st NT refers to the unsatisfactory nature of impermanent, conditioned dhammas. So by beginning to understanding seeing, visible object, other realities now, there is the beginning of understanding the truths, the beginning of overcoming ignorance. The first vipassana nana is the clear comprehension of namas and rupas. It has to begin now, > > D: yes, it has to begin with mindfulness , the first of the 7 links to enlightenment. ... S: With understanding, mindfulness and the other factors. They develop together. ... > S: At a moment of seeing, the experiencing of visible object is "All" that exist at that moment. Satipatthana has to develop now when there has been the clear understanding of present realities. To realise the unconditioned dhamma, the only way is the development of satipatthana, this is the Path. > > D: I wonder whether there is only a difference how to say it .. > The understanding of present realities , dhammas or phenomena of the 6 senses media (the All) needs the framework of what/where to pay attention to , i.e. in respect to body ,feeling,mind and mindobjects. > This means to train oneself by contemplation of the foundation as laid down by the Maha Satipatthana sutta , Abhidhamma enhences the base , providing more details. ... S: The understanding of these dhammas develops as a result of hearing and wisely considering - not by paying special attention, focussing, selecting objects or any other attempt to have awareness and understanding arise. The training is the development of understanding of dhammas as anatta. Like now - it is only seeing, a citta, which experiences visible object. It is just the reality at this moment, no self involved at all. it's useless to try and be aware of seeing, but awareness can arise anytime at all when its nature has been understood. ... > D: there is no real interruption of samsara , only that 'new cards ' meet the history (avijja sankhara) ... S: Yes, 'new cards' each moment, arising and falling away.... ... > > S:There are 3 rounds of vipaka cittas, kusala/akusala cittas and kamma....round and round and round. > > D: why 3 rounds ? kamma is inheritated and its fruits may condition kusala/akusala citta depending on opportunity , creating new kamma in our wandering (samsara) ... S: As I wrote before: >On account of the kilesa (defilements), kamma is committed and this brings results by way of vipaka and rupas produced by kamma. The following is from 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' by Sujin on Dependent Origination and the 3 rounds: "As we have seen, the cycle of birth and death is threefold: the cycle of defilement, the cycle of kamma and the cycle of vipaaka. The cycle of defilement revolves when objects are experienced through the sense-doors and through the mind-door. Defilements that arise in the series or succession of javana cause the committing of kamma. Then the cycle of kamma revolves, akusala kamma and kusala kamma, performed through body, speech and mind. The cycle of kamma conditions vipaaka, and then the cycle of vipaaka revolves. When vipaakacitta arises and experiences an object through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue or the bodysense, defilements are bound to arise on account of the object that is experienced, and then the cycle of defilement revolves again. Time and again the defilements of like or dislike arise because of what appears through the sense-doors or the mind-door. Defilements again condition the performing of kamma, kusala kamma and akusala kamma, and these produce kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. Thus there is no end to the threefold cycle. So long as pa~n~naa has not been developed and is not powerful enough to reach the stage of being able to realise the Four Noble Truths, the threefold cycle of defilement, kamma and vipaaka is bound to revolve all the time." Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125684 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:45 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, > > L: This is kusala vipaka, to hear the Dhamma. And the javana that follows. Also decisions, plans, faith, worries..this are jaavanas. We think we can come, or we dont come...we think of..but no one can control the vipaka, like the enviroment that one lives, friends, cooming across dhamma. What i can say is just come. > > Thanks, Lukas! It is a nice invitation! L: I think Dhamma friendship is the most important. I always like to be associated with wise friends in Dhamma. But not always I can choose were the life throw me. This is always easy to say for me, like of vipaka and than jaavanas, but when times come this is often and mostly like just mere words to me. In few days I am going to my friend Luraya, and we going with her mom to Alps together. And I am tottaly scared how it will be. So scared to meet her. How to do to be accepted to make good impresion on her family, so scared. I am always not good in this socializing things. But I am so worried and affraid, like what Luraya will think of me, how I behave in different situations. If I really have a strenght to be a nice guy etc. How will I feel far from home, without my own money, depending on others. If I get enought food? etc. All so much self involved. And this is all dukkha, but i know it only intelectual understanding. In such moments I feel like having more support from my Dhamma friends here. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125685 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: Whatever happens has to happen. szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, A very good reminder. Thank u so much that u always post so much on Dhamma, what u ve heard on recordings. > Transcription of no. 16 of the 85 short talks on Dhamma: whatever > happens has to happen: > > < Whatever happens has to happen. When something has happend we know > that it has conditions for its occurring, even at this moment. If > there is firm understanding of Dhamma and of cause and effect, of > kamma that is cause and of vipaaka that is the result of kamma, can > we be troubled? People tell many stories about events that occurred > to them, but what happened had to happen. We cannot escape results, > such as sickness occurring because of having eaten poison. > > Someone who understands Dhamma is steadfast when akusala kamma > produces result. When we have more understanding of Dhamma, of cause > and result, we can gradually become detached from the idea of self. > There is no self at all. Seeing is seeing, it arises and falls away, > and it is the same with hearing, thinking or happiness. They arise > and then disappear completely, there is nothing left of them. They > are only elements, dhammas. They arise because there are conditions > for their arising and then they fall away. L: I've sent it to Luraya. She appreciates this also so much and finds it a good reminder. She wrote back: Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125686 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:03 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: I was forgetting that `sense base' and `sense door' were essentially the same thing. Otherwise I would have realised that a sense base must always last for the full number of cittas arising at that door. > > One of the tricky areas is when there are no rupas, isn't it? In the arupa realm I think the bhavanga citta becomes the base/door of mind consciousness. I might have got that wrong too, but that's where I got the impression that a sense door could have been some kind of nama. .... S: Unlike in the sense realms, In the arupa realm, the cittas don't need a physical base, a rupa, in order to arise. There are no rupas experienced there and when mind door cittas arise, heart-base is not necessary as the base/support for these cittas. Now, in the sense realms, eye-sense is the base for seeing and so on. It is also the door for the other cittas in that process, but heart-base is actually the base for these other cittas. So they are not always the same. In the mind-door process, heart-base is the base for all the cittas, but the last bhavanga citta is given as the door-way for all these cittas to arise. When I've questioned it, I've been told that this just means that the last bhavanga citta is the proximate condition for the subsequent mind door cittas to arise. Anyway, a sense door cannot be a nama, but I follow your logic. ... > S: I think neither of those. If the rupa involved is too far gone by the time > the arrest bhavanga citta arises, there cannot be a full sense door process for > obvious reasons. This doesn't mean that the rupa was not strong, just that it > was experienced too late. Sometimes also, there are no tadarammana cittas at the > end of the process. > --------- > > KH: Now that you mention it I am beginning to remember that too. > > But I wonder why it was "experienced too late." .... S: Just conditions for the last bhavanga cittas, such as the 'vibrating' bhavanga citta to contact and experience the sense object later in its phase of having arisen or falling away.... by conditions! I'm sure it happens all the time - just depends on when there is the 'meeting' as to which part of the rupa's cycle is contacted. ... > This is your lucky day! After a two-day delay, during which I was suffering from a head cold (not a good thing on holidays), I reread my email and deleted a long paragraph of uninformed theorising. So you won't have to wade through my explanations of sense door processes that begin too late. .... S: Noooooooo!! J/k - I enjoy reading your theorising - don't revert to the draft cycles and delete habits of old:-/ .... > > S: As Nina wrote in a recent message in the Vism series: > > "When a sense object impinges on a sensebase, a complete sense-door > process of cittas can experience that object which has not fallen > away. The cittas of a complete sense-door process and the preceding > bhavanga-cittas are seventeen in number. Since ruupa lasts seventeen > moments of citta it can be experienced by the cittas of a sense-door > process. After it has just fallen away it is experienced through the > mind-door." > ----------- > > KH: That's clear thank you. Although just to make sure: when Nina said the cittas of a complete sense-door process "and" the preceding bhavanga-cittas were seventeen in number, she meant "and" in the sense of "including" didn't she? Otherwise I am back where I started. :-) ... S: Yes 'and' = 'including': 17 in total Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125687 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:17 pm Subject: Re: grow disenchanted with stress sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter (& Ken O), Good points and questions: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > I stumbled upon following verses ( Dhammapada 277-279 ) > > "Sabbe saàkhârâ aniccâ'ti; > yadâ paññâya passati > atha nibbindati dukkhe > esa maggo visuddhiyâ. > > Sabbe saàkhârâ dukkhâ'ti; > yadâ paññâya passati > atha nibbindati dukkhe > esa maggo visuddhiyâ. > > Sabbe dhammâ anattâ'ti; > yadâ paññâya passati > atha nibbindati dukkhe > esa maggo visuddhiyâ." > > When you see with discernment, 'All fabrications are inconstant' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. When you see with discernment, 'All fabrications are stressful' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. When you see with discernment, 'All phenomena are not-self' - you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. (translated By Thanissaro Bhikkhu ) > > > ' Grow disentchanted with stress' ? Sounds to me rather strange . Who needs that ? Of course we want to get rid of it , usually looking for a replacement with the pleasant , the main troublemaker ( kama tanha or lobha , i.e. the craving for sensual pleasure ). > > So it is lust we need to grow disenchanted with , contrary to the statement, isn't it? > > The translation seems to be correct (nibbindati acc. to PTS : to be disgusted with,dissatisfied with, fed up). .... S: All conditioned dhammas are anicca, dukkha and anatta. What is impermanent is unsatisfactory (dukkha). When conditioned dhammas are seen as they are, this is the path of purification leading to the turning away, the revulsion with those dhammas that are conditioned. It is the third meaning, the meaning of sankhara dukkha, the suffering of formations, that is referred to here from the quote Ken O gave: Dispeller of Delusion para 446 446." Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of expounding the Noble truth of suffering; for this suffering is manifold and of various kinds, that is to say ; the suffering as suffering, the suffering in change, the suffering in formations, concealed suffering, exposed suffering, figurative suffering (pariyaaya), literal suffering. 447." Herein bodily and mental painful feeling are called "suffering as suffering" because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called "suffering in change" because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change. ***Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called 'suffering in formations” because of being oppressed by rise and fall.' But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called 'suffering of the formations', by their being included in the Truth of Suffering." **** S: As noted at the end, even the enlightenment path and fruition cittas are sankhara dukkha 'suffering of the formations' because they arise and fall away, are beyond anyone's control and thereby inherently unsatisfactory. (Nothing to do with 'stress' as we understand the term.) Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125688 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:24 pm Subject: Re: arammana paccaya szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alberto Nice exercise :P > > L: So the goal is less avijja in life isnt it? vijjaanati, this is the first time I hear that word, can u say more Alberto? sa~n~njanati, or something like that I come across, this is I think wrong conceiving realities, like in first sutta of majjhima nikaya. > > There are two words, abhiny.., and pari.. something like this, this is in patisambidhamagga and first sutta of majjhima, what is a difference if u know what i mean? > > > vijaanaati > vinnana (to cognize > consciousness) > pajaanaati > panna (to know/to understand > knowledge/understanding) > sanjaanaati > . . . . . . . . . L: sa~njaanati? To conceive wrongly, by vipallasas and ma~n~nanas? because of wrong sanna? there are 3 vipalasas, sanna,citta, ditthi vipallasas and 3 mannanas: tanha , mana and dithi. It seems like vipalasas condition ma~n~nanas. Can u say more on that? > abhijaanaati/abhinneya refers to panna when it arises to know the individual characteristic (sabhaavalakkhana) of a reality; > parijaanaati/parinneya . . . . . . . . . . > > What would you put in place of the dots? I found that in Patisambidhamagga,Mahaavaggo, Matika. <20. Abhi~n~naapa~n~na ~naataṭṭhe ~naa.na.m. 21. Pari~n~naapa~n~naa t.ira.na.t.the ~naa.na.m. 22. Pahaane pa~n~naa pariccaga.t.the ~naa.na.m.> I know this as three pari~n~nas, nata pari~n~na, tisaranapari~n~na and pahana pari~n~na. I also ve heard of abhinnas but like supernatural knowledges or powers. So I am a bit confused now. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125689 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ''Some Evidence Suggesting the Spurious Nature of Abhidhamma Philosophy'' sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > D: .... > You are stating " When the Buddha referred to location of heart-base, he was referring to ultimate realities only, using coventional language. " > > > But , Sarah , is this is not your interpretatation without canonical support ? ( relying - as I understand- only on a special passage of Vis M. ) .... S: Whatever we read in the Teachings is referring to ultimate realities because there are only ultimate realities: cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana. This is the "All" we've been discussing. When the Buddha refers to this "All" it means that whatever we read in the texts, in the commentaries is also referring to dhammas included in the All. ... Metta Sarah ======= Reply | Messages in this Topic (142) #125690 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:55 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125667) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: If the fact that kusala mind states can be interspersed among strong akusala mind states is beside the point, then I must have missed your point :-)). > > > > So is your point that an action that is clearly one of, for example, deliberate killing is bound to be accompanied by a preponderance of akusala cittas? Perhaps you could explain the significance of this observation to the development of the path. > > RE: My point from the beginning has been that the choices and carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path, not separate from the path, and that the Buddha's prohibitions and admonitions against killing, wrong livelihood, wrong action, wrong speech, etc., are against activities in the world as well as the akusala mental states that would lead to such choices. > > In addition I have been trying to show that akusala mental states lead to negative actions in the conventional world, and that they work together rather than separately. The significance to the path is that if that is the case, one must watch what they do in the world and see that as part of the path in addition to understanding mental states that arise. > =============== J: One notion not included in your statement of the general rule and its significance, but which you have previously advanced, is the idea that *when akusala actions are present, one can presume the presence of akusala mental states* (i.e., in oneself). Reflecting on where you might be coming from on this, I suppose that if kusala conduct is considered to be part of the path (as it is for you), then akusala conduct is viewed as taking one away from the path. I believe this idea conduces to wrong practice, in that one is tempted to try and minimise any akusala (rather than just appreciate the importance of a moment of awareness of any presently arising dhamma). And awareness is seen by some as a way of `zapping' akusala. All without an idea of self or control of course ;-)) Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125691 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Whatever happens has to happen. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas and Luraya, Op 26-jul-2012, om 10:02 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > L: I've sent it to Luraya. She appreciates this also so much and > finds it a good reminder. She wrote back: > > a very good letter and to reflect upon, but even difficult, for as > long as one has not seen that it really is like that > that things happen to conditions, i feel that it is a blind believe > from my side and then doubt arises... > > -------- N: I am glad Luraya appreciates this. It is very difficult to apply it, as Luraya says. I keep on being worried about Lodewijk's health condition, and I need this reminder. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125692 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Wasteland nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas, Op 26-jul-2012, om 9:45 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > But I am so worried and affraid, like what Luraya will think of > me, how I behave in different situations. If I really have a > strenght to be a nice guy etc. How will I feel far from home, > without my own money, depending on others. If I get enought food? > etc. All so much self involved. And this is all dukkha, but i know > it only intelectual understanding. In such moments I feel like > having more support from my Dhamma friends here. ------- N: As you say, so much self involved. We all have that, very understandable. Kh Sujin would give the advice to think of others, that really helps. How nice that you will go to the Alps with Luraya and her mother. An occasion to help where help is needed, many opportunities for small gestures expressing concern for others. Don't despise small gestures, they are important. You will feel much happier that way and then others will be glad that you feel at ease. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125693 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: arammana paccaya nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alberto and Lukas, sa~njaanati: to recognize or know. parijaanaati: to comprehend well. The suffix pari seems to me an intensivum. It can mean around. To know all around. Nina. Op 25-jul-2012, om 17:00 heeft Alberto het volgende geschreven: > vijaanaati > vinnana (to cognize > consciousness) > pajaanaati > panna (to know/to understand > knowledge/understanding) > sanjaanaati > . . . . . . . . . > > abhijaanaati/abhinneya refers to panna when it arises to know the > individual characteristic (sabhaavalakkhana) of a reality; > parijaanaati/parinneya . . . . . . . . . . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125694 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah (and Howard) , I suggest to agree what Howard previously suggested ; it is a matter of speech. Strictly speaking , making a difference between realities (dhammas ) and concept (khandha, a group of specified dhammas) Ven. Nyanatiloka's note is vaild, at least as I understand so far.. (see below) with Metta Dieter "What is called individual existence is in reality nothing but a mere process of those mental and physical phenomena, a process that since time immemorial has been going on, and that also after death will still continue for unthinkably long periods of time. These 5 groups, however, neither singly nor collectively constitute any self-dependent real ego-entity, or personality (atta), nor is there to be found any such entity apart from them. Hence the belief in such an ego-entity or personality, as real in the ultimate sense, proves a mere illusion. "When all constituent parts are there, The designation 'cart' is used; Just so, where the five groups exist, Of 'living being' do we speak." (S. V. 10). The fact ought to be emphasized here that these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha, but that they as such, i.e. as just these 5 complete groups, have no real existence, since only single representatives of these groups, mostly variable, can arise with any state of consciousness. For example, with one and the same unit of consciousness only one single kind of feeling, say joy or sorrow, can be associated and never more than one. Similarly, two different perceptions cannot arise at the same moment. Also, of the various kinds of sense-cognition or consciousness, only one can be present at a time, for example, seeing, hearing or inner consciousness, etc. Of the 50 mental formations, however, a smaller or larger number are always associated with every state of consciousness, as we shall see later on. Some writers on Buddhism who have not understood that the five khandha are just classificatory groupings, have conceived them as compact entities ('heaps', 'bundles'), while actually, as stated above, the groups never exist as such, i.e. they never occur in a simultaneous totality of all their constituents. Also those single constituents of a group which are present in any given body- and -mind process, are of an evanescent nature, and so also their varying combinations. Feeling, perception and mental formations are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities. In S. XXII, 56, there is the following short definition of these 5 groups... snip ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dsg Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 5:42 AM Subject: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 Dear Friends, I was just discussing khandhas with Howard when I heard the following as I ate my lunch: ***** Phil: We were talking yesterday about rupas and I was wondering: are rupas the same here in this beautiful place in the lovely countryside and in a part of the busy city? KS: Doesn't rupa arise and fall away too - each split second? So each one is not the same one at all. Never the same, no matter here or there - just that which has impinged on the eye-sense has arisen and fallen away. P: They're always different, everywhere. KS: Yes, never comes back - each one and that's the meaning of khandha. Khandha passes away, never comes back P: And the khandhas always arise together...? KS: Each one is one khandha. P: OK, khandha doesn't mean like a group of... KS: They arise together, but each one of them is a khandha, not the same one. ***** Metta Sarah ===== [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (6) #125695 From: "Alberto" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: arammana paccaya sprlrt Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas and Nina, > L: I know this as three pari~n~nas, nata pari~n~na, tisaranapari~n~na and pahana pari~n~na. I also ve heard of abhinnas but like supernatural knowledges or powers. So I am a bit confused now. There are many words for in paali for understanding, like for snow in the eskimo language :-) Alberto Reply | Messages in this Topic (8) #125696 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, again I am quite behind , sorry .. you wrote: D: accompanied by which cetasika? I thought about absence of mana , however mana involves not only the conceit to be superior , but as well to be inferior . Probably it is the level of panna which determines kusala or akusala (?) ... S: Yes, panna is the key. We can refer to the respect as the sila, the behaviour by speech and deeds when paying respect to the Triple Gem. However, it depends on panna as to whether there can really be any refuge, any true respect for the Triple Gem, appreciating that no one but the Buddha could have taught us the Dhamma. If we just pay respect by tradition, there will be little confidence because there is little if any panna. It is only by developing right understanding of realities that understanding, confidence and true respect for the Triple Gem will develop. Here's a quote by K.Sujin from the Cambodia talks: "Sujin: Nobody forces you to develop understanding. Buddhists listen to the Dhamma because they take their refuge in the Exalted One, the Sammaasambuddha, in the Dhamma and in the ariyan Sangha, the Community of the enlightened persons. All buddhists take their refuge in the Triple Gem. In what way are the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha of the enlightened persons a refuge? If someone says that he venerates the Exalted One, the Sammaasambuddha, without studying the Dhamma and listening to it, is that true respect? At the time when the Buddha had not passed away buddhists would visit him wherever he dwellt, in order to listen to the Dhamma. They wanted to listen because they realized the excellence of the Dhamma and valued it as a treasure. The Buddha explained that whatever arises does so because of the appropriate conditions and that it then falls away. It is dukkha because it is impermanent. It depends on the individual who listens whether he agrees with this or not, whether he is interested to know this or not. However, it is necessary to study the Dhamma first so that one can understand that the Dhamma as explained by the Buddha is entirely true." D: well said.. ... > S:We can only know our own at any moment. People may looks so respectful as they visit the Holy Places, as they visit temples, as they show respect to monks, but, as we know, there can be a lot of attachment, ignorance and wrong view in between any kusala cittas at such times. > > D: rites and rituals are part of our social life . I think what makes the difference is whether it comes from the heart which I.M.H.O. has much to do with Brahma Vihara.. ... S: Panna and all the perfections. The brahma viharas only arise when beings are the object. So at moments of paying respect to the Buddha, there is aloha, adosa and aloha (if panna is arising), but not the brahma viharas. Metta can only arise in regard to thoughts of loving kindness towards living beings. D: yes ,' brahma viharas only arise when beings are the object' , when one has a heart for other people. Nowadays paying respect to the Buddha means actually to see the teacher in his teaching after the Master passed away. ... > S:Understanding the Dhamma now, the realities appearing now is the greatest respect to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. > > D: and even more if this understanding of reality , i.e. knowledge and clearseeing according to actuality , serves as condition for disentchantment, dispassion and so detachment. ... S: Yes, whenever understanding arises, there is detachment and dispassion at such moments developing. D:I think there is difference between understanding and insight . For example a smoker may understand that smoking is bad for his health, but only by insight he/she will draw the consequences and quit, which means real detachment . with Metta Dieter P.S: nice to learn about your beautiful adventure while swimming .. must have been a bit of comfort after this tragic event some time ago. (is your friend still in a coma?) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125697 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:50 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Thank u for this kind support. I need it. I really need it. Even a small support. > N: As you say, so much self involved. We all have that, very > understandable. L: Is it a ditthi cetasika, that takes it all for a self? What is ditthi cetasika? > Kh Sujin would give the advice to think of others, > that really helps. L: In what way, to think of others? I am mostly self-concerned. A long stories of me. And how I am treated by others. A jelousy may be also concern here. I would like to have less of all of that. Just honest thoughts. > How nice that you will go to the Alps with Luraya > and her mother. An occasion to help where help is needed, many > opportunities for small gestures expressing concern for others. Don't > despise small gestures, they are important. You will feel much > happier that way and then others will be glad that you feel at ease. L: That helps me to not expect too much. This is always helpful. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125698 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:01 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: If the fact that kusala mind states can be interspersed among strong akusala mind states is beside the point, then I must have missed your point :-)). > > > > > > So is your point that an action that is clearly one of, for example, deliberate killing is bound to be accompanied by a preponderance of akusala cittas? Perhaps you could explain the significance of this observation to the development of the path. > > > > RE: My point from the beginning has been that the choices and carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path, not separate from the path, and that the Buddha's prohibitions and admonitions against killing, wrong livelihood, wrong action, wrong speech, etc., are against activities in the world as well as the akusala mental states that would lead to such choices. > > =============== > > J: Regarding "the carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path", you seem to be saying that kusala of the level of sila is part of the path. Whereas to my understanding, only kusala of the level of awareness/vipassana bhavana constitutes path moment. I can't generalize like that so easily. I mentioned specific areas of path that I believe are expressed through conventional activities, and it is the question of what role they play or do not play that I am speaking about here - not about sila as a general proposition. The Buddha said that we should engage in right speech. He did not say right speech was a dhamma, though it certainly has a corresponding set of mental states, but he did specifically speak of gossip, causing dissension, etc. Those are not dhammas, they are conventional actions. I would like to know how you deal with them, and if the Buddha says they are important things to avoid *doing,* is that not part of the path he laid out? Can someone gain right understanding while gossiping and causing dissension? I believe they cannot. If understanding were to arise at such a moment, that could happen, but such an arising would *stop* the proscribed activity. > Regarding "the Buddha's admonitions against killing, wrong livelihood, wrong action, wrong speech, etc., are against activities in the world as well as the akusala mental states that would lead to such choices", yes, most akusala kamma patha involves acts through body or speech doors, i.e., is not purely mental. No disagreement. But again, this is a matter of sila rather than bhavana. How can they be separated? The same cetana that represents the mental state leads to the action. Kamma patha is of a much stronger degree when realized through speech or action, so they are significant for kamma. I think that understanding is also implicated when one acts out of ignorance. In addition, many mental states are not about right understanding, but are about what one thinks or what one wants to do. Cetana can be kusala without understanding, and then you would say it is with regard to sila, but many kusala mental states are also on the level of sila. So are they also not part of the path? I guess not...? I'm not sure about this separating sila from understanding and making them into two separate paths in essence. I don't think the Buddha spoke about them that way. I believe he said that jhana and meritorious actions led to the higher states. It seems to me that all kusala grows together, but maybe I don't understand how it works. > > =============== > > RE: In addition I have been trying to show that akusala mental states lead to negative actions in the conventional world, and that they work together rather than separately. The significance to the path is that if that is the case, one must watch what they do in the world and see that as part of the path in addition to understanding mental states that arise. > > =============== > > J: Regarding, "akusala mental states lead to negative actions in the conventional world", agreed; but more importantly, akusala mental states lead to the commission of akusala kamma patha. > > Regarding, "The significance to the path is that one must watch what they do in the world and see that as part of the path in addition to understanding mental states that arise", I do not understand the development of the path to involve `watching what one does in the world'. I think that avoiding akusala acts of body and speech is part of the sila, but not part of the bhavana, taught by the Buddha. Or do you have in mind some other kind of `watching'? No I just don't see an "eightfold path" being separated into one factor alone and seven on the side, or that the other seven are really only part of the one - all subsidiaries of understanding. I'll read B. Bodhi's explanation and respond to that in a separate post. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125699 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:55 pm Subject: Re: What is the characteristic of citta that can be known in daily life? sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Azita & Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > > I am listening Dhamma quite a bit last days, but the right understanding of the characteristic of citta never arises. What is the way to understand this characteristic of citta? > > azita: firstly, I think that trying to have right understanding is the very thing that prevents it from arising. The path to developing right understanding goes along with detachment not attachment to having awareness arise when we want. Studying, listening, contemplating the dhamma and sanna will remember over time, that this present moment is jst another arising and falling away of citta, cetasika and rupa. No'we' to do anything. ... S: Well pointed out.... lobha follows all the time.... Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125700 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:01 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 9. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, The “Path of Discrimination” (Paìisambhidåmagga, I, 125) states concerning the “Twin Miracle”: “... Here the Perfect One performs the Twin Miracle, which is not shared by his disciples. He produces a mass of fire from the upper part of his body and a shower of water from the lower part of his body....” Some people may wonder whether it is possible to perform such a miracle. When the right conditions have been cultivated citta can perform “miracles”. Those who have cultivated jhåna can develop supernormal powers such as walking on water or diving into the earth. We read about several of the Buddha’s disciples who were skilful at supernormal powers. Therefore, it is not surprising that an omniscient Buddha could perform the Twin Miracle. The “Atthasåliní” relates that the Buddha spent the fourth week in the “Jewel House” where he contemplated the Abhidhamma. It is said that when he contemplated the seventh book, the “Book of Conditional Relations” (Paììhåna) his body emitted rays of six colours. In this book are taught twentyfour classes of conditional relations, and, the “ Atthasåliní” states, “his omniscience certainly found its opportunity therein.” We paid respect at the place where the Buddha stood the second week, looking at the Tree without blinking his eyes. Then we paid respect at the place where he, the third week, walked up and down. After that we paid respect at the place of the “Jewel House” where he, the fourth week, contemplated the Abhidhamma. Only later on, during another pilgrimage, it was pointed out where the “Jewel House” was. The Buddha spent the fifth week at the goatherd’s (banyan) tree where he met a brahman who asked him how one can become a brahman and what the things are which make one a brahman. The Buddha explained to him that he who eradicates defilements is a brahman. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125701 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:05 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (3) sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Chapter 7 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: > Which world is better: the world where a great deal of wholesomeness has been accumulated, so that kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity can arise, or the world of hatred, anger and displeasure? > Different people may meet the same person and know the same things about him, but the world of each one of them will evolve with loving-kindness or with aversion, depending on the power of the citta that has accumulated different inclinations in the case of each person." (51) > > (end of passage) > > Phil adds: Which world is better? The world of wholesomeness of course. But the most important thing is to understand whatever reality arises. A. Sujin asked a kind of dangerous question above, because people who misunderstand Dhamma might believe that the point is to rush towards kusala without understanding that if kusala has not been accumulated, kusala will not result. Any intentional effort to have kusala will result in akusala through lobha and moha rooted cittas. We have to wisely understand whatever reality arises, if we run away from akusala we are just running deeper into akusala. .... S: Well said. The Teachings are just pointing out the facts about different kinds of realities. Whilst wrong view has not been eradicated, there is bound to be subtle or not so subtle efforts at 'trying' to have kusala, be a good person and so on. Such dhammas, such lobha and wrong view can also be known as anatta. ... > Wisely understanding akusala is in itself a moment of kusala, that is the only way kusala can develop, through understanding. This is the sort of subtle point that made the Buddha hesitate to teach in the world because he knew, even thousands of years ago, that his teaching went against the way of the world now. How much more now in the age of personal accomplishment and striving for self fulfillment though 40 day retreats and so on? We are lucky to have a teacher who gets at the subtlety of Dhamma... ... S: Agreed. ... > > I'm off to Canada, this series will continue in a few weeks, I won't have my book with me. .... S: Best wishes for your trip. As your quotes show, according to our tendencies the cittas think in all sorts of ways, often with excitement or apprehension about trips. We never know how things will work out. Just a short while ago, as you'll remember, Lukas was very concerned and agitated at the prospect of returning to Poland. Since his return, there have been conditions for lots of kusala accumulations to manifest - so busy planning and helping others, no time to be depressed and agitated:-) Conditions.... just variegated cittas thinking in different ways after seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching any place, anytime.... Many thanks for all the helpful extracts. Let us know how your trip to Canada goes... perhaps some good discussions with your father and your cousin's father. Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125702 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:10 pm Subject: Re: packing lists. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >P:Maybe Alex can add swimming with a whale to his favourite chestnuts >such as driving into a tree and slamming your head into a door frame. >==================================== > > No matter what one says, we all behave as if external conceptual objects are really there. To try to act as if external "conceptual" objects don't exist and cannot be objects of the mind IMHO, is wrong and is constantly contradicted with every step and every usage of this "non existent" phenomena... ... S: Yes, we behave "as if external conceptual objects are really there", most of the time in ignorance. This doesn't mean that understanding cannot develop and indeed it must develop - the understanding which knows that whatever the behaviour might seem, in fact there are only conditioned dhammas arising and passing away, only ever namas and rupas arising and passing away. For the sotapanna, the outer behaviour will seem just the same - whether driving a car, swimming with a whale or doing the dishes. For those without understanding of dhammas, they can never understand the sotapanna's wisdom - the wisdom that directly understands realities as anatta whatever the behaviour seems to be conventionally. Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125703 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > S: Panna and all the perfections. The brahma viharas only arise when beings are the object. So at moments of paying respect to the Buddha, there is aloha, adosa and aloha (if panna is arising), but not the brahma viharas. Metta can only arise in regard to thoughts of loving kindness towards living beings. > > D: yes ,' brahma viharas only arise when beings are the object' , when one has a heart for other people. > Nowadays paying respect to the Buddha means actually to see the teacher in his teaching after the Master passed away. .... S: When we understand the Teachings, we understand the Buddha's virtues and wisdom too. ... > ... > S: Yes, whenever understanding arises, there is detachment and dispassion at such moments developing. > > > D:I think there is difference between understanding and insight . For example a smoker may understand that smoking is bad for his health, > but only by insight he/she will draw the consequences and quit, which means real detachment . ... S: I don't think the understanding and insight into realities as taught by the Buddha has anything to do with the kinds of conventional understanding and insight, such as in the example you give. ... > P.S: nice to learn about your beautiful adventure while swimming .. must have been a bit of comfort after this tragic event some time ago. > (is your friend still in a coma?) .... S: Yes, gain and loss, kusala and akusala vipaka all the time.... I think of my friend often whilst swimming and like to be inspired to be as caring to other swimmers or non-swimmers as I can, remembering how we never know when it might be our last conversation, last encounter with them. People we meet may have no interest in the Dhamma, but there are always opportunities to show kindnesses "from the heart", as you'd say. Yes, my friend is still in a coma (in London). Her family seem to be doing well. Thanks for asking. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125704 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in India, Ch 4, 2 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Yes, my friend is still in a coma (in London). .... S: I liked this quote of K.Sujin's which Nina gave: < Whatever happens has to happen. When something has happend we know that it has conditions for its occurring, even at this moment. If there is firm understanding of Dhamma and of cause and effect, of kamma that is cause and of vipaaka that is the result of kamma, can we be troubled? People tell many stories about events that occurred to them, but what happened had to happen.< .... S: Last night I got some bad news of someone very close having cancer - kept quiet for a long while. It really helps so much to reflect on kamma and vipaka, dhammas rather than stories. "Can we be troubled?" Only if the understanding is not firm enough, not strong enough. It must be developed. This is the only way. Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125705 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:47 pm Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:You are saying the "fridge" is inconstant and will fall apart >and >that we cannot base our understanding on it. Is this the >Teaching >we need to hear from a Buddha? > >====================================== > >A: All things are inconstant and because of that cannot give constant happiness. I believe that things that are most directly visible here and now are more important. ... S: When the Buddha talked about "sabbe dhamma anicca", was he talking about fridges? What is directly visible now? ... > > I also think that Buddha's analysis into elements is not meant to be taken metaphysically "things don't exist". Rather, I believe, it denies their unity and constancy. Something that is made of parts, can break apart - anicca. .... S: Did the Buddha say it was the elements, the dhammas that were anicca or the "somethings...made of parts"? ... > > Buddha, IMHO, denied the existence of one singular-inner-core called Atta. He did not deny the empirical world of people and things. .... S: So there are people existing without inner cores? Is this through sight, through hearing or just by thinking? Did the Buddha ever say the path was knowing the "all" abut people existing without inner cores? ... > > > >S:Dhammas exist no matter any of the activities you refer to. >Understanding dhammas doesn't mean not opening the fridge! It means >that there is no illusion that in an ultimate sense there is a >fridge. "Fridge" is not the object of satipatthana. > >==================================== > > > It seems to me that holding idea that some things don't exist, and then using them as if they exist, is a bit too problematic, don't you think? .... S: The Buddha slep in his cave or kuti, he address people by name, he travelled to different places - all without any illusion whatsoever that there was anything at all arising and falling away but namas and rupas. When there is understanding of seeing, visible object and other realities, there is nothing problematic or confusing at all. ... > > > I believe that "conceptual" objects are on the same level as "ultimate" objects in sense that they are anicca, dukkha, anatta, and can be objects of satipatthana. > > In satipatthana sutta, 31 bodyparts are objects of satipatthana! .... S: Just rupas, vedana, cittas and other dhammas. Whatever language is used, the "all", the paramattha dhammas are the only objects of the path, the development of satipatthana. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125706 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch. 5, no 2. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >".....Not mystery is the aim of the Buddha's teachings, but > discovery of the true nature of realities. Is this not the greatest > "marvellous quality" of the Buddha?" ... S: Definitely! Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125707 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Wasteland nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas, Op 27-jul-2012, om 5:50 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > > L: Is it a ditthi cetasika, that takes it all for a self? What is > ditthi cetasika? > ------ N: It is wrong view. It is a distorted view of reality. It accompanies lobha-muula-citta, four of the 8 types. But when we cling to self there is not always di.t.thi. We can cling with lobha, without wrong view, or with wrong view, thinking that self exists. Or we may cling with conceit: clinging to the importance of self: I am so important. What will others think of me? Conceit arises more often than we would imagine. ----- > > > Kh Sujin would give the advice to think of others, > > that really helps. > > L: In what way, to think of others? I am mostly self-concerned. A > long stories of me. And how I am treated by others. A jelousy may > be also concern here. I would like to have less of all of that. > Just honest thoughts. > -------- N: To be concerned of the wellbeing of others, with mettaa. You write about wanting to have less akusala, but just wanting will not help. It is pa~n~naa that sees the danger of akusala. But this does not arise on command. There is such a lot of thinking in a day but we can learn that this is just a conditioned element. ------- > > > How nice that you will go to the Alps with Luraya > > and her mother. ... > > L: That helps me to not expect too much. This is always helpful. > ------ N: Often stressed by Kh. Sujin: No expectations. That is motivated by clinging and of no use. ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125708 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:28 am Subject: Re: packing lists. truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, all, >S:Yes, we behave "as if external conceptual objects are really >there", most of the time in ignorance. >=================================================== A: As I understand the suttas, ignorance is mostly defined as ignoring 4NT. ==================================================== >S:For the sotapanna, the outer behaviour will seem just the same - >whether driving a car, swimming with a whale or doing the dishes. >For those without understanding of dhammas, they can never >understand the sotapanna's wisdom - the wisdom that directly >understands realities as anatta whatever the behaviour seems to be >conventionally. >==================================================== A:How does sotapanna differ from ordinary good person? You say the understanding of "anatta", but how does this understanding reflects on sotapanna's behaviour? With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125709 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:36 am Subject: Re: Problems in speculative philosophy truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, all, My belief that all things are impermanent. >S:When the Buddha talked about "sabbe dhamma anicca", was he >talking about fridges? What is directly visible now? >================================================ Visible too is impermanent. >S: Did the Buddha say it was the elements, the dhammas that were >anicca or the "somethings...made of parts"? >============================ Precisely because a "whole" is made of many smaller "parts" it makes that "whole" inconstant, and anatta. If something was totally, totally independant - that would be Atta. >S: So there are people existing without inner cores? >Is this through sight, through hearing or just by thinking? Did the >Buddha ever say the path was knowing the "all" abut people existing >without inner cores? >============================== All phenomena depend on various other factors which is what makes them anicca, anatta and dukkha. >S:Dhammas exist no matter any of the activities you refer to. >Understanding dhammas doesn't mean not opening the fridge! It means >that there is no illusion that in an ultimate sense there is a >fridge. "Fridge" is not the object of satipatthana. >========================================== I believe that avijja means being deluded about 4NT which has nothing to do with metaphysical speculations about what really, really exists in "ultimate" sense. >S:The Buddha slep in his cave or kuti, he address people by name, >he travelled to different places - all without any illusion >whatsoever that there was anything at all arising and falling away >but namas and rupas. When there is understanding of seeing, visible >object and other realities, there is nothing problematic or >confusing at all. >======================================================== I believe that the delusion which Buddha didn't have was delusion about 4NT. With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125710 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:36 am Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125698) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: Regarding "the carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path", you seem to be saying that kusala of the level of sila is part of the path. Whereas to my understanding, only kusala of the level of awareness/vipassana bhavana constitutes path moment. > > RE: I can't generalize like that so easily. I mentioned specific areas of path that I believe are expressed through conventional activities, and it is the question of what role they play or do not play that I am speaking about here - not about sila as a general proposition. The Buddha said that we should engage in right speech. He did not say right speech was a dhamma, though it certainly has a corresponding set of mental states, but he did specifically speak of gossip, causing dissension, etc. Those are not dhammas, they are conventional actions. I would like to know how you deal with them, and if the Buddha says they are important things to avoid *doing,* is that not part of the path he laid out? > =============== J: Yes, the advantages of avoiding akusala conduct is part of the teaching of the Buddha. However, in the texts the term `path' has a specific -- and limited -- meaning, and I think it's good to be aware of this. The term `path' is used to connote the kusala that leads to escape from samsara, as distinct from those other kinds of kusala which lead to further rebirth in samsara (albeit in a happy realm). (For an elaboration on the 2 kinds of kusala, see the extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi quoted in my earlier message, requoted at the end of this message.) The term `path' also helps to distinguish the things taught by the Buddha that were (re-)discovered by him at the time of his enlightenment from those things taught by the Buddha but which were already known. The avoiding of akusala conduct falls within the latter group. If we are to regard *all kusala conduct* as part of the path then we would have to say that any person who has kusala speech is developing the path, even though the person may have never heard the Buddha's teaching (and perhaps holds strong beliefs that contradict those teachings). > =============== > RE: Can someone gain right understanding while gossiping and causing dissension? I believe they cannot. If understanding were to arise at such a moment, that could happen, but such an arising would *stop* the proscribed activity. > =============== J: The awareness of a presently arising dhamma can occur in the midst of strong akusala. It is not the function of awareness/insight to "stop" presently arising akusala, but to understand the characteristic of the presently arising dhamma that is its object (which may or may not be the akusala mental state). > =============== > RE: How can they [sila and bhavana] be separated? The same cetana that represents the mental state leads to the action. Kamma patha is of a much stronger degree when realized through speech or action, so they are significant for kamma. I think that understanding is also implicated when one acts out of ignorance. In addition, many mental states are not about right understanding, but are about what one thinks or what one wants to do. Cetana can be kusala without understanding, and then you would say it is with regard to sila, but many kusala mental states are also on the level of sila. So are they also not part of the path? I guess not...? > > I'm not sure about this separating sila from understanding and making them into two separate paths in essence. I don't think the Buddha spoke about them that way. I believe he said that jhana and meritorious actions led to the higher states. It seems to me that all kusala grows together, but maybe I don't understand how it works. > =============== J: The performing of meritorious actions and the attaining of jhana is not something that is exclusive ot the teaching of a Buddha. These things were known already. What the Buddha discovered was the path that consists of insight into the true nature of presently arising dhammas, encapsulated in the teaching on the Noble Eightfold Path. Jon << << << [A]ctions springing from the wholesome roots may be of two kinds, mundane and world-transcending. The mundane (lokiya) wholesome actions have the potential to produce a fortunate rebirth and pleasant results within the round of rebirths. The world-transcending or supramundane (lokuttara) wholesome actions -- namely, the kamma generated by developing the Noble Eightfold Path and the other aids to enlightenment -- lead to enlightenment and to liberation from the round of rebirths. This is the kamma that dismantles the entire process of kammic causation. >> >> >> Bhikkhu Bodhi Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125711 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:10 am Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. Pt. 2. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: Jon, citing Bikkhu Bodhi: > << << << > The word "kamma" literally means action, but technically it refers to volitional action. As the Buddha says: "It is volition (cetanaa) that I call kamma; for having willed (cetayitvaa), one acts by body, speech and mind." (AN III 415) Rob E.: I think we can all agree that without volition, action is meaningless, and that volition, cetana, generates kamma. If you kill someone by pure accident, there is no kamma. Another way of putting it is that one's "sentience" is not involved. One's "rupas" happen to do the unwholesome action due to condition, but one's "namas" are not involved, and citta is not aware of what is taking place. When volition arises to do evil, then of course that is what generates kamma. If someone were to drink "fruit punch" without realizing it was spiked with alcohol, or eat "hash brownies" thinking it was a pleasant desert, then of course there's no volition and no kamma. However there are two issues involved that go beyond this: 1. While we can agree that many actions could possibly take place by accident, and that without volition there is no kamma, is it also possible that unwholesome actions that *do* arise from volition are the expression of that volition and thus partake in the creation of kamma? To put it more simply, when cetana reaches completion through speech or physical action, then the cetana is strong enough to cause concrete actions to be carried out, and the weight of the kamma is known to be stronger in that case, and so we can say that the physical act that *does* come from akusala cetana increases the kamma. Thus the physical expression of cetana is itself akusala, and is worse than "unacted desires," to quote William Blake out of context. Blake, on the other hand, thought that building up akusala cetana was worse than taking action: "Better to strangle a baby in its cradle than to nurse unacted desires." 2. There are some actions that just will not take place unless akusala cetana brings them into existence. There is no way that anyone is going to murder, lie, rob, cheat or steal in the absence of akusala cetana. So we can say that such actions are the conventional expression of akusala cetana. The connection is obvious. Again, to anticipate a possible exception, if one cheats or steals by accident, it's not really cheating or stealing and thus is neither the expression of akusala cetana, nor is it a truly unwholesome act. It's just another accident. > Kamma thus denotes deeds that originate from volition. Rob E.: Agreed! > Such volition may remain purely mental, generating kamma that occurs as thoughts, plans, and desires; or it may come to expression outwardly through manifest bodily and verbal actions. ... Rob E.: ...As I've been saying, there are those three levels of kamma patha, and each one is significant, not just the mental level. ... > The mundane (lokiya) wholesome actions have the potential to produce a fortunate rebirth and pleasant results within the round of rebirths. > > The world-transcending or supramundane (lokuttara) wholesome actions -- namely, the kamma generated by developing the Noble Eightfold Path and the other aids to enlightenment -- lead to enlightenment and to liberation from the round of rebirths. This is the kamma that dismantles the entire process of kammic causation. The question is whether conventional actions and activities that correspond to the mental factors of the 8fold NP's components are: a/ part of the action of those 8 factors; b/ reflective of the activity of the 8 factors. Anticipating again, it may always be possible that a seeming positive activity may actually have an akusala root, but in many cases, right livelihood, right speech, right action "in the world" will be the expression of the development of the corresponding mental factors, and in my view, will then create part of the action of developing them. If physical akusala kamma patha is worse than mental kamma patha, then physical kusala as the expression of kusala kamma patha is also more worthwhile than mental factors that are too weak to express themselves in action. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125712 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:30 am Subject: travel time.... sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Friends, We'll be without a computer for a couple of days..... speak soon from Hong Kong. Metta Sarah ============ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125713 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:35 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Lukas. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > In few days I am going to my friend Luraya, and we going with her mom to Alps together. And I am tottaly scared how it will be. So scared to meet her. How to do to be accepted to make good impresion on her family, so scared. I am always not good in this socializing things. But I am so worried and affraid, like what Luraya will think of me, how I behave in different situations. If I really have a strenght to be a nice guy etc. How will I feel far from home, without my own money, depending on others. If I get enought food? etc. All so much self involved. And this is all dukkha, but i know it only intelectual understanding. In such moments I feel like having more support from my Dhamma friends here. I have those same feelings many times. Being a Dhamma student is unfortunately no protection against anxiety and insecurity, but it is possible to experience those feelings and realize - intellectually at least as you say - that they are just experiences that are coming and going, and don't really tell you the truth about reality. Sometimes it is interesting to watch a feeling like that to the end and see that at some point it fades away. It may come up again, but it is not as continuous as it seems. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125714 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:44 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: One notion not included in your statement of the general rule and its significance, but which you have previously advanced, is the idea that *when akusala actions are present, one can presume the presence of akusala mental states* (i.e., in oneself). > > Reflecting on where you might be coming from on this, I suppose that if kusala conduct is considered to be part of the path (as it is for you), then akusala conduct is viewed as taking one away from the path. > > I believe this idea conduces to wrong practice, in that one is tempted to try and minimise any akusala (rather than just appreciate the importance of a moment of awareness of any presently arising dhamma). And awareness is seen by some as a way of `zapping' akusala. All without an idea of self or control of course ;-)) I do think that we should try to reduce "akusala behavior" and that the Buddha would not have promoted good behavior if it was *only awareness* that was being promoted, and not behavior as well. Buddha did not ever say "Go kill as many chickens as you like - when awareness arises naturally you will gain insight anyway." The suggestion is in the opposite direction. I think most people try to do this anyway. I don't think anyone in the group runs around trying to trip people so they can enjoy watching them fall down, or makes a regular habit of stealing. Probably the akusala we engage in is more subtle and on the mental level, or at least concerned with private activities, or sort of the normal things like drinking a little wine [a semi-medical activity of mine since the red wine reports...]. But I do think we should be moving in the right direction, however gradually. I also think we can have such an intention without an idea of control, but just of gradually moving in the right direction. After you've tried to control the current habits for a few decades I think you realize that it's not in your hands. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125715 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:30 pm Subject: Sila and the development of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125674) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: There is no required minimum level of sila in order for an understanding of dhammas to begin to develop. Everyone starts from where they are. > > > > So for example, if a person who earns his living by slaughtering chickens hears the teachings on the development of the path for the first time in his present life and, by virtue of understanding accumulated in previous lives, understands what he has heard, his current occupation would be no obstacle to the arising of awareness of dhammas. > > RE: I don't disagree that such a moment could arise, and if it did, would not be stopped by his occupation. But if the man had that moment of understanding would he then continue to slaughter chickens? And if he did so, would he continue to develop kusala? It seems to me that a butcher who entered the path would either stop killing chickens or have an ongoing conflict. > =============== J: I think that speculation about the likelihood of this or that happening is of limited usefulness. The Dhamma principle involved is clear: only at the first stage of enlightenment (stream-entry) does the breach of the 5 precepts become no longer possible. In other words, only the sotapanna has perfect sila. The rest of us must develop the path with less than perfect (mostly, poor) sila. But lack of `good' sila is no obstacle to that. There's no çonflict' between less-than-perfect sila and the development of the path. > =============== > RE: I don't think the Buddha ever proposed that the blind monk who stepped on the caterpillars would have been fine if he had stepped on the caterpillars purposely. And if someone keeps killing chickens intentionally after hearing the teachings, that would not be kusala, would it? Don't the teachings say to abstain from killing? > > On the other hand we all have various akusala arising all the time and all do actions we are not especially proud of. I agree with you that does not stop anyone from being on the path, although I think it may prevent progress past a certain point until such habits are dropped. Do you disagree? Can one go on killing chickens past the 1st, 2nd, 3rd stage of insight? Can the killing go on forever until one reaches the level where killing is impossible? > =============== J: As mentioned above, breach of any of the precepts is theoretically possible up until the first stage of enlightenment. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125716 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: packing lists. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, Op 27-jul-2012, om 19:28 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > A:How does sotapanna differ from ordinary good person? You say the > understanding of "anatta", but how does this understanding reflects > on sotapanna's behaviour? ------ N: Sati of the level of satipa.t.thaana arises naturally, more often. More awareness of his/her different cittas. Hiri and ottappa arise more often. Mettaa is more developped, with upekkhaa, impartiality. Treating others as friends, no matter who they are. All perfections that are needed for the attainment of enlightenment have been developed. Good qualities are purer when not taken for self. Thus, we can understand that the sotaapanna does not transgress any of the five precepts. All these good qualities did not arise suddenly but were developed during a long, long time, very gradually, with great patience and endurance, not expecting results. We all can begin with the development. ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125717 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:04 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 10. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, The sixth week the Buddha spent at the foot of the Mucalinda tree and the seventh week he spent at the Råjåyatana tree. One afternoon we walked through the fields to the places which commemorate the sixth week and the seventh week. We had to walk six kilometers in the burning sun in order to reach the Råjåyatana tree and six kilometers back. On the way we passed the place of the Mucalinda tree. One lady of our group had been sick during the journey but she was determined to complete her pilgrimage and also that afternoon she decided to come with us. In the morning she had already walked to the river Nerañjarå and that afternoon she walked with us, full of energy and endurance. The Dhamma gave her strength. Later on in Delhi she had to leave us and return to Thailand sooner, because of her sickness. A Thai monk, residing in the Thai temple of Bodhgaya guided us to the places. He walked in front with Venerable Bhikkhu Dhammadharo and the novice, Venerable Jetananda followed them; we walked behind in a long row. The Thai monk preached to us while we were walking and exhorted us to have energy and determination. On the way we talked about characteristics of nåma and rúpa, and mindfulness of them. We talked about the phenomena appearing at the present moment, while walking. We came first to the “Mucalinda Pond”, the place commemorating the sixth week after the Buddha’s enlightenment. We read in the “Vinaya” (Mahåvagga I, 2) that the Buddha sat cross-legged in one posture for seven days at the foot of the Mucalinda Tree, “experiencing the bliss of freedom”. At that time there was rainy weather and cold winds were blowing. Therefore, Mucalinda, the serpent king, encircled the Lord’s body seven times with his coils and spread a great hood over his head in order to protect him. At the end of that week, when the sky was clear again, he unwound his coils from the Lord’s body, assumed the form of a young man and paid respect to the Buddha. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125718 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in speculative philosophy nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, Op 27-jul-2012, om 19:36 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I believe that avijja means being deluded about 4NT which has > nothing to do with metaphysical speculations about what really, > really exists in "ultimate" sense. ------ N: In dukkha are included all conditioned phenomena, thus, naama and ruupa. "In short, the five khandhas are dukkha". What else are these but conditioned naama and ruupa? Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125719 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: packing lists. truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your reply. With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125720 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:12 am Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: Regarding "the carrying out of conventional activities is part of the path", you seem to be saying that kusala of the level of sila is part of the path. Whereas to my understanding, only kusala of the level of awareness/vipassana bhavana constitutes path moment. > > > > RE: I can't generalize like that so easily. I mentioned specific areas of path that I believe are expressed through conventional activities, and it is the question of what role they play or do not play that I am speaking about here - not about sila as a general proposition. The Buddha said that we should engage in right speech. He did not say right speech was a dhamma, though it certainly has a corresponding set of mental states, but he did specifically speak of gossip, causing dissension, etc. Those are not dhammas, they are conventional actions. I would like to know how you deal with them, and if the Buddha says they are important things to avoid *doing,* is that not part of the path he laid out? > > =============== > > J: Yes, the advantages of avoiding akusala conduct is part of the teaching of the Buddha. However, in the texts the term `path' has a specific -- and limited -- meaning, and I think it's good to be aware of this. I think there's a question as to whether "path" only refers to understanding, and everything else is just sila. The "path" includes right action, right livelihood, right speech, etc. It is very difficult to imagine that "right speech" is not referring to speech itself but only a mental factor that for some reason is merely *called* speech, and that something as worldly as "right livelihood" is really just a mental factor but has nothing to do with what you do for a living. I don't think anyone would propose that *any* of the components of the Noble 8 Fold Path are not necessary to the completion of the path. They are all necessary. For someone to propose that "right livelihood" is a mental factor seems at least to fly in the face of what it means. When the Buddha talks about right livelihood he is talking about what you do for a living. Yes, you can do the right sort of work and have akusala mental factors "spoiling the broth," but I don't think there's any doubt that if a butcher heard the Buddha preach and wanted to follow him seriously, the Buddha would have told him to stop killing chickens for a living. Do you disagree? It is very hard to imagine that "right speech" has nothing to do with the act of speech but is only a mental factor. So the idea that the eight mental factors arise at the moment of enlightenment, and that the eight-fold path is *nothing* but that moment of arising does not accord with so many things that the Buddha said. Right speech, right action, right livelihood, are expressed in so many ways as having to do with what is done in the world. Causing dissension, spreading gossip, etc., do not exist merely as mental factors. They don't exist at all outside of the conventional activities that express them. So what about such things? How do you address them? If the Buddha says "a monk should not eat meat that has been specially killed and prepared for him" is that a mental factor? It is obviously an admonition regarding activity in the world. To say that the active part of right speech, right action and right livelihood are just "sila" and are not part of the path to enlightenment reduces the Noble 8 Fold path to a Noble 1-fold path of understanding only. I do not believe that is what the Buddha intended, and it doesn't accord with so much of what he said during his lifetime - not that I've read it all. But he did not suggest that the other 7 factors other than right understanding were only sila and not supporting factors of enlightenment. > The term `path' is used to connote the kusala that leads to escape from samsara, as distinct from those other kinds of kusala which lead to further rebirth in samsara (albeit in a happy realm). (For an elaboration on the 2 kinds of kusala, see the extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi quoted in my earlier message, requoted at the end of this message.) I understand the difference as regards kusala, but it does not suggest that the Noble 8 fold path is only a momentary series of mental factors and has nothing to do with all that the Buddha taught about them. Sila is one of the legs of the path. It's not a separate ineffective path. Without adequate sila, without eradicating defilements, the path of understanding can only go so far. The conditions that support understanding are built into the entire path, not just one part of it. > The term `path' also helps to distinguish the things taught by the Buddha that were (re-)discovered by him at the time of his enlightenment from those things taught by the Buddha but which were already known. The avoiding of akusala conduct falls within the latter group. > > If we are to regard *all kusala conduct* as part of the path then we would have to say that any person who has kusala speech is developing the path, even though the person may have never heard the Buddha's teaching (and perhaps holds strong beliefs that contradict those teachings). It is not that "all kusala conduct" is adequate to complete the path, which cannot be completed without right understanding, but it is a case of the right degree of kusala conduct being "necessary but not sufficient." The path cannot take place without sila, without all the factors of the path, but that does not mean that sila by itself will complete the path, as clearly it will not. However, there are those who perfected sila, as I recall, to the point that right understanding arose as a result. I cannot recall the passage but I believe I have seen it in sutta. Some follow the path of sila, some of concentration and some of direct understanding and at some point have to add the other factors. Even on the path of dry insight, without adequate sila I don't think it will lead to enlightenment. Do you disagree? > > =============== > > RE: Can someone gain right understanding while gossiping and causing dissension? I believe they cannot. If understanding were to arise at such a moment, that could happen, but such an arising would *stop* the proscribed activity. > > =============== > > J: The awareness of a presently arising dhamma can occur in the midst of strong akusala. That is not the point - as I suggested above, the behavior would change if awareness arose. One would not have awareness arise and keep gossiping or beating people up, would they? If only a moment of understanding arose, sure, maybe that could come and go without disrupting negative behavior or expression, but if a number of moments of understanding arose, I am sure the "bad behavior" could not continue. I can just imagine someone thinking "wow, great insight into the nature of reality is presently arising, but I'm still enjoying beating the living daylights out of this innocent person. And even better, I'm winning the fight!" > It is not the function of awareness/insight to "stop" presently arising akusala, but to understand the characteristic of the presently arising dhamma that is its object (which may or may not be the akusala mental state). Well I think talking about a single moment of awareness is fine for purposes of gradual accumulation, but obviously one would have to be at a point where awareness was arising regularly to change behavior, and I am sure at that point it would, whether that is its purpose or not. There are no reports of Buddha's advanced disciples running around stealing or beating people, or cursing at each other. That would not express their level of understanding and the suttas have mentioned such things on any number of occasions - the peace and equanimity that takes place, and the courtesy and awareness of others and how to behave around them among his followers. > > =============== > > RE: How can they [sila and bhavana] be separated? The same cetana that represents the mental state leads to the action. Kamma patha is of a much stronger degree when realized through speech or action, so they are significant for kamma. I think that understanding is also implicated when one acts out of ignorance. In addition, many mental states are not about right understanding, but are about what one thinks or what one wants to do. Cetana can be kusala without understanding, and then you would say it is with regard to sila, but many kusala mental states are also on the level of sila. So are they also not part of the path? I guess not...? > > > > I'm not sure about this separating sila from understanding and making them into two separate paths in essence. I don't think the Buddha spoke about them that way. I believe he said that jhana and meritorious actions led to the higher states. It seems to me that all kusala grows together, but maybe I don't understand how it works. > > =============== > > J: The performing of meritorious actions and the attaining of jhana is not something that is exclusive to the teaching of a Buddha. These things were known already. I think it's a mistake on that basis to think that they are not necessary and that any part of the path - explicitly taught to be so by the Buddha - can be dispensed with because people before him knew some version of that factor. It is not the same when it is taught as part of the Buddha's pathway to enlightenment. They are factors as taught by him. When the Buddha teaches jhana, he talks about the development of insight in conjunction with the jhana, or developing insight before or after the development of jhana. He doesn't talk of jhana in its own right as those before him did. So it is being re-understood as part of the Buddha's path - it's not the same as it was before. The Buddha clearly said that jhana is right concentration, thus part of *the path.* The fact that some dry-insight followers who have that propensity can gain right concentration in another context does not take away from that pronouncement by the Buddha himself. > What the Buddha discovered was the path that consists of insight into the true nature of presently arising dhammas, encapsulated in the teaching on the Noble Eightfold Path. Well I would say that the whole package as put together by the Buddha is quite unique. If he wanted to teach right understanding only with itself as its own only support, he would not have taught the Noble Eightfold path, but a one-fold path with eight subsidiary factors. This is not the way he spoke of it, and it is a strange collapsing of all that he said for forty years to reduce all that he said about the other factors to a few mental factors at the moment of enlightenment. > [A]ctions springing from the wholesome roots may be of two kinds, mundane and world-transcending. > > The mundane (lokiya) wholesome actions have the potential to produce a fortunate rebirth and pleasant results within the round of rebirths. > > The world-transcending or supramundane (lokuttara) wholesome actions -- namely, the kamma generated by developing the Noble Eightfold Path and the other aids to enlightenment -- lead to enlightenment and to liberation from the round of rebirths. This is the kamma that dismantles the entire process of kammic causation. I would like to know why the Buddha put forth so many stipulations of how to behave, act and speak if they are all not part of the real path. That does not make a lot of sense to me. What does make sense is to say that those actions that purify and appreciate merit are supporting factors for the development of understanding, and that is supported by much of what the Buddha himself said. Without sila and concentration, I don't see how right understanding cannot be sustained and developed, but maybe you don't see it that way. K. Sujin speaks of the importance of the perfections and of metta. She must think they are important supports for understanding too. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125721 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:23 am Subject: Sila and the development of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: I think that speculation about the likelihood of this or that happening is of limited usefulness. The Dhamma principle involved is clear: only at the first stage of enlightenment (stream-entry) does the breach of the 5 precepts become no longer possible. In other words, only the sotapanna has perfect sila. The rest of us must develop the path with less than perfect (mostly, poor) sila. But lack of `good' sila is no obstacle to that. There's no çonflict' between less-than-perfect sila and the development of the path. Well, I never said that sila had to be perfect, but killing chickens is a long way off. There has to be some sila developed for the path to progress, does there not? Can one be in a perfect muck of defilement and have understanding not just arise, but develop? > > =============== > > RE: I don't think the Buddha ever proposed that the blind monk who stepped on the caterpillars would have been fine if he had stepped on the caterpillars purposely. And if someone keeps killing chickens intentionally after hearing the teachings, that would not be kusala, would it? Don't the teachings say to abstain from killing? > > > > On the other hand we all have various akusala arising all the time and all do actions we are not especially proud of. I agree with you that does not stop anyone from being on the path, although I think it may prevent progress past a certain point until such habits are dropped. Do you disagree? Can one go on killing chickens past the 1st, 2nd, 3rd stage of insight? Can the killing go on forever until one reaches the level where killing is impossible? > > =============== > > J: As mentioned above, breach of any of the precepts is theoretically possible up until the first stage of enlightenment. That wasn't really my question. I'm trying to establish whether sila and defilements are totally beside the point or not. If you are saying they have no effect on the path whatever, I'd like to know it if that is the case. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125722 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:01 am Subject: Satipatthana 2 - Why Only Four? ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all  Dispeller of Delusion  1017. If that is so, why are “foundations of mindfulness” in the plural? Because of the plurality of mindfulness. For that mindfulness is plural, corresponding to the different kinds of its object. 1018. But why are precisely four foundations of mindfulness stated by the Blessed One, no less, no more? Because of being beneficial to those capable of being taught. For as regards those who have the habit of craving, who have the habit of [wrong] view, who have the vehicle of tranquility and who have the vehicle of insight, each occurring in two forms by way of the slow-witted and quick-witted [as regards these,] for one having the habit of craving who is slow-witted, the coarse contemplation of the body as foundation of mindfulness is the path to purity, and for the quick-witted the subtle contemplation of feeling as foundation of mindfulness. Also for one having the habit of [wrong] view who is slow-witted the not greatly divided up contemplation of the mind as foundation of mindfulness is the path to purity, and for the quick-witted the greatly divided up contemplation of mental objects as foundation of mindfulness. And for one who has the vehicle of tranquility who is slow-wined, the first foundation of mindfulness is the path to purity because the sign is obtainable with little trouble, and for the quick-witted the second because of his not becoming steadied in a coarse object. Also for one who has the vehicle of insight who is slow-witted, the third which is not greatly divided up as to object, and for the quick-witted the fourth which is greatly divided up as to object. Thus four are stated, no less, no more.   Commentary to Satipatthana  Drawing distinctions, it is said: Body and feeling are the cause of zest [assadassa karana]. For the rejection of that zest of body, by the dull-witted [manda] man of the craving type [tanhacarita], the seeing [dassana] of the ugly [asubha] in the body, the coarse object [olarika arammana], which is the basis of craving [tanha vatthu], is convenient. To that type of man the contemplation on corporeality, the First Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity [Visuddhi Magga]. For the abandoning of that zest, by the keen-witted [tikha] man of the craving type, the seeing of suffering in feeling, the subtle object [sukhuma arammana], which is the basis of craving, is convenient, and for him the contemplation on feeling, the Second Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity. For the dull-witted man of the theorizing type [ditthi carita] it is convenient to see consciousness [citta] in the fairly simple way it is set forth in this discourse, by way of impermanence [aniccata], and by way of such divisions as mind-with-lust [saragadi vasena], in order to reject the notion of permanence [nicca sañña] in regard to consciousness. Consciousness is a special condition [visesa karana] for the wrong view due to a basic belief in permanence [niccanti abhinivesa vatthutaya ditthiya]. The contemplation on consciousness, the Third Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity of this type of man. For the keen-witted man of the theorizing type it is convenient to see mental objects or things [dhamma], according to the manifold way set forth in this discourse, by way of perception, sense-impression and so forth [nivaranadi vasena], in order to reject the notion of a soul [atta sañña] in regard to mental things. Mental things are special conditions for the wrong view due to a basic belief in a soul [attanti abhinivesa vatthutaya ditthiya]. For this type of man the contemplation on mental objects, the Fourth Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity.  Consciousness and mental objects constitute the outstanding conditions of theorizing. Consciousness is such a condition because it is a decisive factor in the belief in permanence. Mental objects are such conditions because these are decisive factors in the belief in a soul. Consciousness and mental objects are decisive factors of craving as well as of theorizing. And body and feeling are decisive factors of theorizing as well as of craving. Yet to point out that which is stronger in body and feeling, namely, craving, and that which is stronger in consciousness and mental objects, namely, theorizing, distinctions have been drawn. Because he does not continue to stay in the coarse:The keen-witted man pursuing the path of quietude lays hold of the gross subject of meditation, but he does not stay in that. He lays hold of feeling, the subtle subject of meditation, by way of the factors of absorption [jhana] after attaining to and emerging from the absorption reached with the material body as subject. Since the heart of the man pursuing the path of insight takes to the contemplation of subtle consciousness and mental object, these have been spoken of as the Path to Purity for the man, dull-witted or keen-witted, pursuing insight.  cheers KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125723 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:35 am Subject: Satipatthana 2 - Why Only Four? (2) ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email  Dear all  Dispeller of Delusion  1019. Or alternatively, it is in order to abandon the perversions (vipallãsa) of the beautiful, the pleasant, the permanent and self. For the body is foul, and herein beings are perverted [into regarding it as beautiful] by the perversion of the beautiful. The first foundation of mindfulness is stated in order to abandon that perversion by showing them the foulness therein. And as regards feeling and so on, taken as “pleasant, permanent, self”, feeling is painful, mind is impermanent and mental objects are non-self. And beings are perverted as to these by the perversions of the pleasant, the permanent and self. The remaining three [foundations of mindfulness] are stated in order to abandon those perversions by seeing the pain, etc. therein. Thus they should alternatively be understood to be stated as four, no less, no more, in order to abandon the perversions of the beautiful, the pleasant, the permanent and self. 1020. And the four should be understood as stated not only in order to abandon the perversions but also in order to abandon the four floods, bonds, cankers, knots, clingings and wrong destinies, and in order to fully understand the four kinds of nutriment. This in the first place is the method of the Exposition(s). 1021. But in the Commentary this also is said: “The foundation of mindfulness is one only by way of both remembering and gathering together in unity and it is four by way of object [of meditation]”. Commentary to The Root of Existence (MN1)  "Having perceived earth as earth" Cy. Having perceived earth thus with a perverted perception. The worldling afterwards conceives it. i.e.. construes or discriminates it, through the strengthened proliferating tendencies of craving, conceit and views, which are here called "conceiving". This accords with the statement “Concepts due to proliferation are grounded upon perception (Sn 874)".  He apprehends it in diverse ways contrary (to reality); hence it is said: "He conceives earth. ” To show that conceiving by which he conceives it by a gross method, the twenty parts of the body such as head-hairs, body hairs. etc.,  may be mentioned as internal earth. The external earth may he understood through the passage Vbhaannga “What is the external earth dement? Whatever is external, and is hard, solid, hardness, the state of being hard, exterior, not kammically acquired such as iron, copper, lead, sliver 
..  Sub. Cy.  Panpancasankha  = portions of panpanca. Because of these, beings are detained (papa) in samsara, i.e., delayed, thus these are "proliferating tendencies .” "Conceiving" (mannana): because of these, people conceive, i.e. misconstrue (parikappenti), things as "This is mine," etc. Craving, conceit, and views are referred lo here by two synonymous terms, "conceiving" and "proliferating tendencies."  "He apprehends it ... contrary (to reality)": like the conceiving of views, the conceivings of craving and conceit also apprehend things contrary to reality—craving assuming the repulsive to be beautiful, conceit the inferior to be superior, etc.  KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125724 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:12 am Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 11. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, We then went to the Råjåyatana Tree where we saw the remnant of a small stone post which King Asoka had erected in order to mark the importance of the place. When the Buddha was staying there two merchants, Tapussa and Bhallika, who had come from Ukkåla, passed that place. A deva, who was a relative of them spoke to them: “My good fellows, this Lord, having just (become) wholly awakened, is staying at the foot of the Råjåyatana, go and serve that Lord with barley-gruel and honey-balls, and this will be a blessing and happiness for you for a long time.” We read that the merchants approached the Buddha in order to offer this food, but that the Buddha did not have a bowl to receive the food in and therefore, the “four Great Kings” (devas) offered him four bowls made of rock crystal. Thus, the Buddha received the barley- gruel and honey-balls in a new bowl made of rock crystal. We then read: “Then the merchants Tapussa and Bhallika, having found that the Lord had removed his hand from the bowl, having inclined their heads towards the Lord’s feet, spoke thus to the Lord: ‘We, Lord, are those going to the Lord for refuge and to Dhamma; let the Lord accept us as lay-disciples gone for refuge for life from this day forth.’ Thus, these came to be the first lay-disciples in the world using the two- word formula.” They did not use the three-word formula of refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, because there was no Sangha at that time. In the “Gradual Sayings”(Book of the Ones, Ch XIV, f) it is said: “Monks, chief among my disciples, lay-followers, of those who first took refuge (in my teaching), are the merchants Tapassu (in Burmese manuscript Tapussa) and Bhalluka.” Yasa’s father (Vinaya, Mahåvagga I, 7. 10) would be the first lay- disciple using the threefold formula, since the Sangha had been formed at that time, and countless people after him would take their refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. At this place we took refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. We paid respect with candles, incense and chanting. The taking of refuge at this place has a special significance when one commemorates the two merchants who were the first lay-followers to have confidence in the Buddha and his teaching and who expressed this confidence through taking refuge in the Buddha and the Dhamma for their whole life. We also want to express our confidence in the Buddha’s teachings because we are developing satipatthåna and we see the benefit of it in our lives. ****** Nina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125725 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:28 am Subject: Sila and the development of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125721) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: Well, I never said that sila had to be perfect, but killing chickens is a long way off. There has to be some sila developed for the path to progress, does there not? Can one be in a perfect muck of defilement and have understanding not just arise, but develop? > =============== J: There is no question of sila not being developed! If the path is being developed, there will also be the development of sila. But of course, a person proceeds from where they are in terms of level of sila. > =============== > > J: As mentioned above, breach of any of the precepts is theoretically possible up until the first stage of enlightenment. > > RE: That wasn't really my question. I'm trying to establish whether sila and defilements are totally beside the point or not. If you are saying they have no effect on the path whatever, I'd like to know it if that is the case. > =============== J: I can best answer this by going back to the comments of Bhikkhu Bodhi on the 2 kinds of kusala. As you will recall, he said: << << << [A]ctions springing from the wholesome roots may be of two kinds, mundane and world-transcending. The mundane (lokiya) wholesome actions have the potential to produce a fortunate rebirth and pleasant results within the round of rebirths. The world-transcending or supramundane (lokuttara) wholesome actions -- namely, the kamma generated by developing the Noble Eightfold Path and the other aids to enlightenment -- lead to enlightenment and to liberation from the round of rebirths. This is the kamma that dismantles the entire process of kammic causation. >> >> >> Kusala of the level of sila is kusala of the kind that will "produce a fortunate rebirth and pleasant results within the round of rebirths", while kusala of the level of vipassana is kusala that "leads to enlightenment and to liberation from the round of rebirths ... [and that] dismantles the entire process of kammic causation". So while sila is of course a great support for the development of the path, the two kinds of kusala are not to be confused. A moment of sila is not a moment of actual path development, whereas a moment of awareness/insight is. Nobody is saying that sila is `totally beside the point', but neither is there any minimum prerequisite in that regard. Without the development of the path, any development of sila leads only to future rebirth, not to liberation from the round of rebirths. As regards the presence of defilements, which you also ask about, it is clear from the Satipatthana Sutta that defilements can be the object of awareness. Indeed, if defilements are not the object of awareness, the accumulated latent tendency to take them for self could never be eradicated. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125726 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:25 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (3) glenjohnann Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello Phil I appreciate all of your excerpts from SPD - and particularly this one. ALso appreciate your comments. Hope your trip to Canada is going well - and that there are opportunities for good visits with family and friends. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear group, > > > Chapter 7 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: > > "It seems that we are all living together in the same world. However, in reality all the different ruupas (material phenomena) that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysend and mind, all those different phenomena, could not appear and be of such importance if there were no citta, the element that experiences them. Since citta experiences the objects that appear throug the sense-doors and through the mind-door, the world of each person is ruled by his citta. > Which world is better: the world where a great deal of wholesomeness has been accumulated, so that kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity can arise, or the world of hatred, anger and displeasure? > Different people may meet the same person and know the same things about him, but the world of each one of them will evolve with loving-kindness or with aversion, depending on the power of the citta that has accumulated different inclinations in the case of each person." (51) > > (end of passage) > > Phil adds: Which world is better? The world of wholesomeness of course. But the most important thing is to understand whatever reality arises. A. Sujin asked a kind of dangerous question above, because people who misunderstand Dhamma might believe that the point is to rush towards kusala without understanding that if kusala has not been accumulated, kusala will not result. Any intentional effort to have kusala will result in akusala through lobha and moha rooted cittas. We have to wisely understand whatever reality arises, if we run away from akusala we are just running deeper into akusala. > Wisely understanding akusala is in itself a moment of kusala, that is the only way kusala can develop, through understanding. This is the sort of subtle point that made the Buddha hesitate to teach in the world because he knew, even thousands of years ago, that his teaching went against the way of the world now. How much more now in the age of personal accomplishment and striving for self fulfillment though 40 day retreats and so on? We are lucky to have a teacher who gets at the subtlety of Dhamma... > > I'm off to Canada, this series will continue in a few weeks, I won't have my book with me. > > phil > Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125727 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:51 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 12. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, On the way back it was very hot and I became thirsty. My former Thai teacher gave me the last drop of water from her bottle. Throughout our journey all people were most generous and helpful. They were attentive to the needs of others day and night. The two doctors in our group gave medicines to everyone who had a stomach ailment until their supply was exhausted towards the end of the journey. The leader of our group, Khun Suwat, took care of all our material needs. He arranged for our food on the way and saw to it that the monks and the novice had their meals in time, before midday, and he took care so that nobody ever went hungry. When we could not have a picnic in a wood or field he managed to find a room, for example, in the back of a shop where he provided cardboard lunchboxes for us, complete with forks and spoons. Such a room suddenly became a delightfil place when there was an opportunity for a Dhamma converstaion. In this way any place was delightful throughout our journey. We stayed for two days in the guest-quarters of the Thai temple in Bodhgaya. Venerable Bhikkhu Dhammadharo was so impressed by the holy places. He repeated aloud the text: “Iti pi so Bhagava...”, meaning: “the Blessed One is such since he is accomplished, fully enlightened...” He deeply considered this text which refers to the cause of the Buddha’s enlightenment. We have to think of all the aeons he accumulated as a Bodhisatta wisdom and all good qualities, the perfections, so that he could become a Sammåsambuddha. He taught Dhamma out of compassion, also for us now. Several times a day we went to the Bodhi-tree where we paid respect, walked around or had Dhamma conversations. As a sign of respect we sprinkled water over the roots of the Bodhi-tree and I remembered to “extend the merit” to all beings who were able to rejoice in our kusala. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125728 From: "azita" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:08 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland gazita2002 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hallo Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Azita, I think our friend from Vietnam said she was also visiting Bkk end Sept. How long will you be staying in Thailand? azita: In Thailand for about 2 months. Is yr friend going to the Foundation? Patience, courage and good cheer azita Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125729 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is the characteristic of citta that can be known in daily life? nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas, Op 23-jul-2012, om 7:10 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > What is the characteristic of citta? ------- N: It clearly cognizes an object. It is accompanied by several cetasikas that each perform their own function with regard to the object, but citta is the leader in knowing an object. ------- > > L: All what appers, comes due to citta? But how citta can be known > in daily life? ------- N: If there were no citta nothing could appear. Colour, sound, all objects could not appear. How can citta be known. Kh S would say: now, just now. Is there no experience of visible object? It is not self who experiences this, but a citta, seeing. It is difficult to eliminate the "I" from the seeing, we are so used to the idea of I see. But through listening and considering there can be more understanding. --------- > > L: I am listening Dhamma quite a bit last days, but the right > understanding of the characteristic of citta never arises. What is > the way to understand this characteristic of citta? ------ N: Just now there may still be an idea of I am listening, I understand. Or an idea of wishing to understand. This hinders, it is the function of pa~n~naa that arises because of its own conditions, not because we want it to arise. There is no other way but listening and considering more, we did not listen and consider enough. Think of the innumerable lives of ignorance. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125730 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:54 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > L: I think Dhamma friendship is the most important. I always like to be associated with wise friends in Dhamma. But not always I can choose were the life throw me. > > This is always easy to say for me, like of vipaka and than jaavanas, but when times come this is often and mostly like just mere words to me. .... S: Vipaka is just seeing, hearing and so on. Kusala and akusala vipaka all the time. There can be Dhamma association anytime at all - depends on the way of thinking in the javanas - wisely or unwisely. ... > > In few days I am going to my friend Luraya, and we going with her mom to Alps together. And I am tottaly scared how it will be. So scared to meet her. How to do to be accepted to make good impresion on her family, so scared. I am always not good in this socializing things. But I am so worried and affraid, like what Luraya will think of me, how I behave in different situations. If I really have a strenght to be a nice guy etc. How will I feel far from home, without my own money, depending on others. If I get enought food? etc. All so much self involved. .... S: Yes, sounds like a lot of ME! How about appreciating the kindness and generosity shown to you for a start. When we think of others' needs instead of our own, socializing is easy - putting others at ease instead of thinking of our own ease all the time... Like when you plan for everyone's comfort and well-being in Poland, no fear or concern about impressions or your stomach at such times:-) ... >And this is all dukkha, ... S: I would say it's just akusala thinking. Remember, all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. ... >but i know it only intelectual understanding. In such moments I feel like having more support from my Dhamma friends here. ... S: Remember we'll just be reminding you about metta and other kinds of kusala and no matter what, there can be awareness and understanding of the reality appearing, one world at a time, anytime. Hope you have a lovely trip. I think it would be a great idea for you and Luraya to brainstorm and make some lists of qus and issues to raise during the discussions in Poland. The more the better. Write them all down in a notebook. Helpful for everyone. Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125731 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, the issue of bojjhanga is quite important , so I will refer only to that , coming back to the other points later. you wrote: (D: yes, it has to begin with mindfulness , the first of the 7 links to enlightenment.) ... S: With understanding, mindfulness and the other factors. They develop together. ... D: hm.... just to recall the 7 (Buddh.Dict.) a.. bojjhanga 'the 7 factors of enlightenment', are: a.. mindfulness (sati-sambojjhanga; s. sati), b.. investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga), c.. energy (viriya-sambojjhanga; s. viriya, padhana), d.. rapture (piti-sambojjhanga, q.v.) e.. tranquility (passaddhi-sambojjhanga, q.v.), f.. concentration (samadhi-sambojjhanga, q.v.), g.. equanimity (upekkha). "Because they lead to enlightenment, therefore they are called factors of enlightenment" (S. XLVI, 5). Though in the 2nd factor, dhamma-vicaya, the word dhamma is taken by most translators to stand for the Buddhist doctrine, it probably refers to the bodily and mental phenomena (nama-rupa-dhamma) as presented to the investigating mind by mindfulness, the 1st factor. With that interpretation, the term may be rendered by 'investigation of phenomena'. D: I suppose a thundering Yes ! ... but frankly speaking I miss the substantiation for a different interpretation than ' by most translators'. 'In A.X.102, the 7 factors are said to be the means of attaining the threefold wisdom (s. tevijja).''In Brahmanism means 'knower of the 3 Vedas' (tri-vidya), in Buddhism means one who has realised 3 kinds of knowledge, to wit: a.. remembrance of former rebirths, b.. the divine eye, c.. extinction of all cankers. ' D:The sutta doesn't refer to the three characteristics of life , ti-lakkhana , which could have allowed above interpretation 'They may be attained by means of the 4 foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana), as it is said in S.XLVI.1 and explained in M.118: a.. (1) "Whenever, o monks, the monk dwells contemplating the body (kaya), feeling (vedana), mind (citta) and mind-objects (dhamma), strenuous, clearly-conscious, mindful, after subduing worldly greed and grief, at such a time his mindfulness is present and undisturbed; and whenever his mindfulness is present and undisturbed, at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'mindfulness' (sati-sambojjhanga), and thus this factor of enlightenment reaches fullest perfection. b.. (2) "Whenever, while dwelling with mindfulness, he wisely investigates, examines and thinks over the law ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'investigation of the law' (dhamma-vicaya°) .... D:'investigates, examines and thinks over the law vs : the term may be rendered by 'investigation of phenomena'. The majority of translators may refute the latter as an unfounded restriction.. a.. (3) "Whenever, while wisely investigating his energy is firm and unshaken ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'energy' (viriya°) .... b.. (4) "Whenever in him, while firm in energy, arises super sensuous rapture ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'rapture' (piti°) .. c.. (5) "Whenever, while enraptured in mind, his body and his mind become composed ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'tranquillity' (passaddhi°). d.. (6) "Whenever, while being composed in his body and happy, his mind becomes concentrated ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'concentration' (samadhi°) e.. (7) "Whenever he looks with complete indifference on his mind thus concentrated ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'equanimity' (upekkha). D: above states in respect to each of the 7 factors 'whenever.. at such a time ' . It is not clear to me what you mean by 'With understanding, mindfulness and the other factors. They develop together'. with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125732 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:11 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, (& Ken H) Just came across #125094 which you partly addressed to me... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >KH: Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. > >R: I'm not sure if you can draw that conclusion. ... S: I don't agree with Ken H there either. He was not blamed because he did not intentionally kill. This is quite different from knowing that inevitably when we walk down a path, dig the earth or breathe the air that insects will be harmed. The Buddha did not follow the Jain approach because it all comes down to the intention to harm, dose-rooted cittas. ... >The fact that the monk was blind has something to do with the story, and it is his blindness that made it impossible for him to navigate without killing the caterpillars. There is usually a practical understanding in Buddhism that there are certain extreme conditions that cannot be met. One can drink alcohol as part of a medicinal potion, but not for recreation. One can't kill intentionally but one can be forgiven for killing when it is unavoidable. Could the monk live without walking anywhere? What was the alternative? .... S: The precepts are not "cans" and can'ts" - they are a description of particular cittas, particular intentions, kamma patha and the consequences of such. With regard to alcohol, there is not necessarily any akusala kamma patha involved at all. The harm is in the accumulation and leading to breaking the other precepts, more akusala kamma patha. ... > >R: In Jainism those who are orthodox wear a net over their face so they won't accidentally inhale small insects and kill them. Buddhism rejects this kind of extreme. ... S: Exactly - because it is looking at situations rather than intentions. .... > > >K: The monk was not blamed because he had right understanding. He knew in ultimate reality there were no caterpillars, no monks, and no physical activities. There were only dhammas, rising and falling by conditions, beyond anyone's control. ... S: He may or may not have had any understanding at all, but it still remains true that if there were no intention to harm or kill, there was no blame, regardless of any understanding. .... > >R: If this explanation was true, then you would be asserting that someone with right view can kill another person without any blame or kamma. I don't believe this is the case. What is good for the caterpillar is good for any being. It's just a matter of degree. > > >K: In explanations of satipatthana it is always wrong view or right view that is blamed or praised, it is never a permanent, controlling, being. .... S: Wrong view, right view, kusala and akusala intentions and cittas of all kinds. There can be kusala intention with no understanding and there can be akusala intention with no wrong view. Whilst walking down the path, most the time there is just ignorance and attachment, but this doesn't mean there's any intention to kill or harm. ... > >R: And yet definite conventional actions are praised and blamed by the Buddha, and I believe that this aspect of Dhamma is meant to be taken seriously, as I believe does Rob K. I think you are wrong on this one. There is no controlling person, but actions still have consequences. ... S: You've continued to have an interesting discussion with Jon on this topic. It is always just dhammas that can be understood - cittas, cetasikas and rupas appearing now, one at a time. Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125733 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, Another one, #125085, that was partly addressed to me. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >Rob K: IMHO the insect exterminator would be making akusala. I would never advise him to stop his job - heaven forbid-in fact please make him the pre-eminent insect exterminator in the country. > >Rob E: It seems to me that this continues an unresolved issue about conventional activities. Ken H. is correctly following his very strict understanding that paramatha dhammas and kusala and akusala have *nothing* to do with conventional activities and events as we experience them in everyday life. *Nothing,* because there is no relation between what are pure concepts, such as killing an insect, performing an abortion, or finding the mind connected to the brain, and actual paramatha dhammas, which are merely kusala or akusala dhammas that arise in a single individual moment. .... S: I think the point is that there are only paramattha dhammas. Anything else is a 'story'. .... >R: I agree with what I think is Rob K.'s view. It does not make sense to me to say you can be a Buddhist simply by understanding dhammas, without any regard to whether you are killing beings or not, drinking, engaging in wrong livelihood, wrong speech and action, etc. in everyday life. ... S: "Simply by understanding dhammas...." What else is there to understand? Whatever the activity, there are only dhammas. Understanding these dhammas more and more precisely when they arise, when they appear is the only way that akusala of all kinds can ever be eradicated. Understanding is the forerunner, the leader, just like the dawn. ... > Maybe this issue could be raised with K. Sujin? .... S: Sure. Could you write a two or three line qu of exactly what you'd like to ask her. I'll be glad to raise it. Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125734 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:25 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H, #125088 - (for some reason I had mislaid a bunch of posts and just come across them on return to HK. I think they came in just before I left.) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > I think a doctor who is required to perform abortions is in the same boat as the blind monk (in the suttas) who walked on caterpillars. .... S: Depends on the intentions. Different moments, different intentions. If there is no intention to harm or kill, there is no blame. It's the hire and ottappa which will see the shame in harming a living being. ... > > Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. ... S: I do. There are so many similar examples in the Vinaya. .... >He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. ... S: As Rob E mentioned, this would be a Jain approach if one were to avoid walking because of inevitable deaths of insects or wear a net over one's face. It's the intention that counts. Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125735 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:31 pm Subject: Re: 2007 audio - 20. Seclusion now! sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > S: Back to the seclusion and "how about now?", we know that references to the forest like in the satipatthana Sutta are referring to ... > > > > KS: One is already there. > > I hope this is not taken the wrong way, but this is very 'zen.' In a good way... The idea that the teaching is realized in the moment and that there is only the reality of this moment is an approach that I think is shared by K. Sujin with the zen masters. I'm sure everything else is very different, but I find it pretty neat, from opposite ends of the spectrum. ... S: Yes, I know what you mean. A good friend refers to the "Manjushri sword" when K.Sujin responds - same idea. Back to this moment, cutting through the stories. .... > > In one zen story, the monk is chastised for saying that a 'bird has flown away' because he is thinking about the past event and the absence of the bird rather than the reality of the moment. > > The moment of thinking can also be known as such, but I don't think the zen master would disagree with that either. ... S: Right. We all agree on the present moment, but we have to be more and more precise about what the present moment, the present dhamma is. So, not enough to say "be aware now", must be 'be aware of seeing, visible object, hardness......whatever appears now". The clear distinction between namas and rupas can only be known in this way - by knowing particular dhammas that appear. ... > Anyway, I will now go hide... ... S: Pls don't!! to be contd.....dashing out now for an appointment.... Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125736 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:20 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125720) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: Sila is one of the legs of the path. It's not a separate ineffective path. Without adequate sila, without eradicating defilements, the path of understanding can only go so far. The conditions that support understanding are built into the entire path, not just one part of it. > =============== J: Regarding, "without eradicating defilements, the path of understanding can only go so far", I understand the position to be the other way around, namely, that without the development of understanding of dhammas, there can never be the eradication of defilements. Eradication of defilements is a function of the path consciousness, both mundane (i.e., moments of awareness/insight) and supramundane (i.e., at each of the stages of enlightenment). This is the significance of the passage from the Visuddhimagga (Ch XXIII) that I quoted recently, which explains that the first among the `benefits in developing understanding' is the removal of various defilements. Here is the passage again: "2. Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This starts with the delimitation of mentality-materiality. Then one of the benefits of the supramundane development of understanding is the removal, at the path moment, of the various defilements beginning with the fetters." > =============== > RE: The path cannot take place without sila, without all the factors of the path, but that does not mean that sila by itself will complete the path, as clearly it will not. However, there are those who perfected sila, as I recall, to the point that right understanding arose as a result. I cannot recall the passage but I believe I have seen it in sutta. Some follow the path of sila, some of concentration and some of direct understanding and at some point have to add the other factors. Even on the path of dry insight, without adequate sila I don't think it will lead to enlightenment. Do you disagree? > =============== J: Regarding, "there are those who perfected sila, as I recall, to the point that right understanding arose as a result", I think you may be mistaken here. For a start, it is right understanding that perfects sila, and only at the stage of stream-entry does sila become perfected. While sila can be developed to a high degree, without right understanding/the development of the path the accumulated latent tendencies for akusala remain unaffected and will at some stage manifest and lead to conduct that is cause for rebirth in a lower plane. The cycle of vipaka, kilesa and [akusala] kamma cannot be broken. Kusala conduct is kusala conduct regardless of whether the person has heard the teachings or not. A person who has never heard the teachings (and who, for example, believes in salvation through prayer) can develop sila to a high degree and also the jhanas. Surely it could not be said that such a person is on the Buddha's path? Regarding, "Even on the path of dry insight, without adequate sila I don't think it will lead to enlightenment. Do you disagree?", I think that if a person who is developing the path his sila is necessarily 'adequate', and indeed will be much stronger that it would have been if he were not developing the path. > =============== > > J: The awareness of a presently arising dhamma can occur in the midst of strong akusala. > > RE: That is not the point - as I suggested above, the behavior would change if awareness arose. One would not have awareness arise and keep gossiping or beating people up, would they? If only a moment of understanding arose, sure, maybe that could come and go without disrupting negative behavior or expression, but if a number of moments of understanding arose, I am sure the "bad behavior" could not continue. I can just imagine someone thinking "wow, great insight into the nature of reality is presently arising, but I'm still enjoying beating the living daylights out of this innocent person. And even better, I'm winning the fight!" > =============== J: I agree that when there is awareness/insight (i.e., the development of the path), sila will also be developed. The person who understands the path also appreciates the value of sila, in fact moreso that does the person who is not developing the path. That is not the same as saying, however, that "bad behaviour" necessarily ceases in the person who is developing the path. There is no principle of the teachings that behaviour has to be of a certain level in order for the development of the path to proceed. > =============== > RE: Well I think talking about a single moment of awareness is fine for purposes of gradual accumulation, but obviously one would have to be at a point where awareness was arising regularly to change behavior, and I am sure at that point it would, whether that is its purpose or not. There are no reports of Buddha's advanced disciples running around stealing or beating people, or cursing at each other. That would not express their level of understanding and the suttas have mentioned such things on any number of occasions - the peace and equanimity that takes place, and the courtesy and awareness of others and how to behave around them among his followers. > =============== J: Regarding, "There are no reports of Buddha's advanced disciples running around stealing or beating people, or cursing at each other", that may well be so, but the question we're discussing is whether it is part of the teaching of the Buddha that there must be the development of sila to a certain (as yet unspecified) degree if the development of insight is to proceed. I don't believe there is such a principle expounded by the Buddha. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125737 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:20 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 5, no 13. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, We visited the Abbot of the Thai temple and presented to him the recordings with “The Lives and Psalms of the Buddha’s Disciples”, composed by Khun Amara Chayabongse. Inspired by the “Thera-therí- gåthå” (Psalms of the Brothers and Sisters) she wrote in a very lively way about men and women in the Buddha’s time who proved in their daily life that the Path can be developed and enlightenment be attained. She read these talks with an accompaniment of Indian music which emphasized the words in a very effective way. Seated in the temple we listened to her story about Ambapåli who had been a courtesan but who attained arahatship after she had contemplated the impermanence in her own ageing body. We listened to the quotation from the text of the Therígåthå (LXVI): “Glossy and black as the down of the bee my curls once clustered. They with the waste of the years are liker to hempen or bark cloth. Such and not otherwise runneth the rune, the word of the Soothsayer.” Further on the poem says: “Gleamed as I smiled my teeth like the opening buds of the plaintain. They with the waste of the years are broken and yellow as barley. So and not otherwise runneth the rune, the word of the Soothsayer.” The poem ends as follows: “Such has this body been. Now age-weary and weak and unsightly, Home of manyfold ills; old house whence the mortar is dropping. So and not otherwise runneth the rune, the word of the Soothsayer.” Afterwards we talked about old age. We all are subject to old age. So long as we are in the cycle of birth and death we cannot escape old age. When we notice bodily changes it can remind us at that moment to be mindful of nåma and rúpa. Thus, we shall be less inclined to take the body for self; we shall have “wise attention” instead of attachment to the body or aversion from old age. The Buddha found the way leading to freedom from birth, old age, sickness and death. ******** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125738 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, continue .. you wrote S: At a moment of seeing, the experiencing of visible object is "All" that exist at that moment. D: the 'All' is a constant stream of rising and ceasing (senses) phenomena . Attention towards a visible object , the citta eye-consciousness, does not mean other objects / the other senses media don't exist. The stream is real , but our reality appears to be only that, we our conscious of ( in fact only a very small quantity out of available millions of passing phenomena , which are sub-conscious ). By the unexpected we are reminded on a choice among the many... I stumbled recently upon a statement of a neuro-scientist : 99 % of the present is provided by memory , only 1 % are added by the senses. Recalling SN 35,145 : 'Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma.' both seem to me to correspond.. Eye-ear--etc. -consciousness is past in a sense that what we are aware of is already 'further down the stream' , at least a quarter of a second acc. to cognitive science. Hence :'And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma' The re-action , cetasika , by which the citta is 'coloured' S: Satipatthana has to develop now when there has been the clear understanding of present realities. D: I would put it like :the understanding of realities is possible with the development of mindfulness . ( second and first link of bojjhanga) S:To realise the unconditioned dhamma, the only way is the development of satipatthana, this is the Path. D: the all of dhammas is conditioned , we may speak of the unconditioned (dhatu) = nibbana (> D: I wonder whether there is only a difference how to say it .. > The understanding of present realities , dhammas or phenomena of the 6 senses media (the All) needs the framework of what/where to pay attention to , i.e. in respect to body ,feeling,mind and mindobjects. > This means to train oneself by contemplation of the foundation as laid down by the Maha Satipatthana sutta , Abhidhamma enhences the base , providing more details. ... S: The understanding of these dhammas develops as a result of hearing and wisely considering - not by paying special attention, focussing, selecting objects or any other attempt to have awareness and understanding arise. The training is the development of understanding of dhammas as anatta. D: we are not close ... S:Like now - it is only seeing, a citta, which experiences visible object. It is just the reality at this moment, no self involved at all. it's useless to try and be aware of seeing, but awareness can arise anytime at all when its nature has been understood. D: the reality of the moment runs within the process of D.O. .. and this stream is going on until the last remainder of the taints is abolished. Mana , self conceit, only - as you know- at the entrance of Arahantship. Anatta must be realized , the intellectual understanding is only the steps towards it. I did not say to try and be aware of seeing .. but to have an 'overview' what are the 'dimensions ' we are/can be aware, mindful of, i.e. the big 4 od Satpatthana. It is re-cognition what we learnt by that 'overview' (Maha Satipatthana sutta) which allows in daily life only seeing, hearing ,etc. > D: there is no real interruption of samsara , only that 'new cards ' meet the history (avijja sankhara) ... S: Yes, 'new cards' each moment, arising and falling away.... D: yes, each moment different cards are being played ( those in the hands ).. at death ..game over , cards shuffled ..and dealt , new game ..birth. to be continued.. with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125739 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 9:46 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah and Rob E, ----- >> KH: Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. >> > S: I do. There are so many similar examples in the Vinaya. ------ KH: I'm not sure what either of us is referring to there. Perhaps I was trying to say to Rob E that the Buddha taught satipathana. He didn't teach, for example, the absence of akusala without satipathana. So I think I was saying the blind monk's absence of akusala was not a commonplace absence. It was in fact an absence that was due to the Path. I was suggesting that the monk might have been an ariyan, and the non-arising of akusala kamma patha was due to the destruction (complete or partial) of defilements. -------------- >> KH: He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. >> > S: As Rob E mentioned, this would be a Jain approach if one were to avoid walking because of inevitable deaths of insects or wear a net over one's face. It's the intention that counts. --------------- KH: As I was saying to Rob, in ultimate reality there was *no akusala kamma patha.* So our conventional stories of what happened should reflect that ultimate reality. It's hard – and I think even the monk's friends found it hard – to think of a story in which someone could walk down a caterpillar infested track without being in some way malicious or irresponsible. Can you think of a suitable conventional explanation? I know we all drive our cars, for example, knowing full well that insects are going to be accidentally killed. We take it for granted that there is nothing wrong – no unwholesome intention – involved in doing that, but isn't it just a matter of degree? If people (instead of mere insects) were inevitably going to be accidentally killed every time we drove our cars, would we still be excused for doing so? Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125740 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 7:23 pm Subject: Re: Self-Correction Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Howard & Alex, >________________________________ > From: "upasaka@..." -------------------------- >HCW: >Yes, that is the main reading, namely that of >mass/bulk/category/group/collection. However, I have seen a secondary meaning given in the PTS >dictionary (that I looked up an hour or so ago) that also applies 'khandha' to >the *members* of a group. So, that usage is acceptable as well, and I stand >corrected on this. (It would not be normal English usage, but we are >dealing with meanings of a Pali word, not an English one.) >---------------------------------------------------------- S: Yes, "meanings of a Pali word, not an English one" Let's look at SN 48 (Bodhi transl): "At Saavatthii. 'Bhikkhus, I will teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates subject to clinging. Listen to that........ 'And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the form aggregate.'" [S: in other words, any past rupa is rupa khandha, any future rupa is rupa khandha, any rupa arising now is rupa khandha and so on. Each rupa shares the characteristics of being rupa with each other rupa, therefore each one is rupa khandha.] " 'Whatever kind of feeling there is....perception....volitional formations... whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the consciousness aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates.' " [S: Again, any kind of feeling is vedana khandha. Pleasant feeling is vedana khandha, unpleasant feeling, past feeling, subtle feeling.....each one vedana khandha. Same for different perceptions, other cetasikas or kinds of consciousness. Seeing is vinnana khandha, hearing, smelling, thinking - each kind of citta is vinnana khandha, sharing the nature of vinnana/citta with each other one.] "' And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates subject to clinging? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present.....far or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the form aggregate subject to clinging.' " [S: If a past rupa, such as a past visible object, was clung to, it was upadana khandha. If visible object or sound now is clung to, it is upadana khandha. Here the text is referring to realities, rupas which are the objects of attachment, not to "categories" or "groups". It means any kind of rupa at all, any rupa khandha. The same applies to all other kinds of khandhas.] Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125741 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 7:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > I suggest to agree what Howard previously suggested ; it is a matter of speech. > Strictly speaking , making a difference between realities (dhammas ) and concept (khandha, a group of specified dhammas)... .... S: Can you find me any quote from the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries (not Nyantiloka - there are some errors in the dictionary) which suggests khandhas are concepts and not realities (dhammas)? When the suttas repeatedly refer to the understanding of khandhas as anicca, dukkha and anatta, are they referring to concepts as being anicca, dukkha and anatta or to realities(dhammas) as having these ti-lakkhana, do you think? Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (6) #125742 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 8:08 pm Subject: What I heard: Equanimity. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, I heard this morning from a Thai recording: The Brahma vihaara of upekkhaa. This is tatramajjhattataa cetasika. As a Brahma vihaara it has a being as object. When someone is beyond help we can consider that everyone is heir to kamma, that he receives the result of his kamma. That will help one to have less aversion. Kh Sujin said that we should consider more kamma and result. Where does the body come from? It is kamma that produces eyesense, earsense and the other senses. Seeing and hearing arise and these are results of kamma. Bodily wellbeing and bodily misery are results of kamma. If we really understand this we shall not be disturbed by the results of kamma. --------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (24) #125743 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 8:12 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 2. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, The account which is given does not tell us whether the Buddha also saw us today who listen to his teachings and develop the Path. He was an omniscient Buddha and Enlightened Ones can by their omniscience know everything they direct their attention to. As we read in the “VIsuddhimagga”(Ch VII, 29, note 7): “All dhammas are available to the adverting of the Enlightened One, the Blessed One, are available to his wish, are available to his attention, are available to his thought. ((Ps. II, 195) And the Blessed One’s knowledge that has past and future as its objective field is entirely actual experience since it is devoid of assumption based on inference, tradition or conjecture.” Out of compassion he surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One and out of compassion he was going to teach Dhamma. He who was “from grief released” had compassion for “the peoples sunken in grief, oppressed with birth and age.” The Buddha wanted to teach Dhamma first to his former teacher Ålåra the Kålåma, but he had passed away seven days ago, as a deva told the Buddha. The Buddha then wanted to teach Dhamma to Uddaka, but he had passed away the night before. The Buddha decided then to teach the five monks who had been his attendants and who were staying now near Varånåsí at Isipatana in the deerpark. On the way to Isipatana the Buddha met Upaka, the naked ascetic, whom he told that he had destroyed all defilements. Upaka shook his head and took a different road. When the five monks saw the Buddha from far they decided not to attend to him. They believed that he had reverted to a life of abundance since he had accepted solid food from Sujåtå. But when the Buddha came near they changed their mind and attended to him. The Buddha explained to them that the two extremes of addiction to sense pleasures and of self-torment should be avoided and that the Middle Way should be followed which is the eightfold Path (Vinaya, Mahåvagga I, 6. 17, 18). He then explained to them the four noble Truths. Thus, he set rolling the “Wheel of Dhamma”. In Sarnath, which is the site of the first sermon, we saw the great Stupa, erected on top of an older stupa, and excavations of old structures which were once the monks’ dwellings. The Chinese pilgrims Fa Hian (beginning of the fifth century) and Hiuen Tsang (640) who gave accounts of their pilgrimages to the Buddhist sites, also described Sarnath and the monuments they saw there. Hiuen Tsang described the whole monastery as he saw it with fifteen hundred monks, a vihara, a statue of the Buddha represented as turning the Wheel of Dhamma and a stone pillar erected by King Asoka. One can still see a remnant of this pillar. The capital is kept in the museum of Sarnath. In the modern temple built by the Mahå-Bodhi society, relics of the Buddha are kept which are shown only once a year. ******** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125744 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 6:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 2007 audio - 20. Seclusion now! sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E part 2 of #125082 >________________________________ > From: Robert E >It may be that for those who have the accumulations for concentration, going into physical seclusion is supportive. Wouldn't the rupas of the forest and the quiet also be a reflection of vipaka? So perhaps the going into concentration and the going into the forest is part of that person's natural development and the vipaka rupas that are experienced reflect that at that point...? ... S: "A reflection of vipaka" or more attachment. We all have accumulations for concentration, mostly all akusala concentration. If we go into the forest to concentrate and reflect more, likely to be more akusala concentration and reflection. There are vipaka cittas experiencing rupas whether in the city or in the forest. There can be understanding now of seeing, of visible object, of attachment. If we wait for the quiet forest, bound to be attachment. .... > >> KS: Shall we postpone the development of panna from now on? >> >> S: Well, of course it's not what I'm advocating, but a lot of people today talk about developing jhana and they don't see it as.... > >> KS: ...Excuse me, if there is no panna right now to understand this moment - whether it is calm or not, can anyone reach jhana, that stage of calmness? So it has start or begin from this moment. >...If there is no panna at this moment, how can it grow? >> >> S: No matter what the place ....."seclusion" has to be now. >> ***** >> >> *Vism: VIII,153. "Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing." >> >> **"For this bhikkhu's mind has long been dissipated among visible data, etc., as its object, and it does not want to mount the object of concentration-through-mindfulness-of-breathing; it runs off the track like a chariot harnessed to a wild ox." > >The implication here seems to be that the mind will want to run off to sense objects, so concentration is not natural at that point; and that physical seclusion is being suggested to train the mind. ... S: I think the implication is that wherever one is is a favorable place if there are the accumulations and understanding. If there is understanding now of what appears, if there is calmness now of whatever object, then it is "an abode favorable" and at such moments the concentration is already kusala. This is quite different to going to a special place, focussing on a special object and trying to concentrate. .... > >Still, K. Sujin's point that if one goes to the forest with akusala or without understanding, really adds to the understanding of conditions for development in any case. With understanding, and with kusala, could the physical conditions of quiet, etc. help to train the mind, or is this never the case? ... S: The only "quiet" that counts is the quiet and calm of a moment of kusala. When the citta is kusala, even amongst the crowd, it is quiet and calm already. As Alberto and I recently quoted from MN 4, here Thanissaro's transl: Just quoting from TB's translation: " "But, Master Gotama, it's not easy to endure isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. It's not easy to maintain seclusion, not easy to enjoy being alone. The forests, as it were, plunder the mind of a monk who has not attained concentration." "Yes, brahman, so it is. It's not easy to endure isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. It's not easy to maintain seclusion, not easy to enjoy being alone. The forests, as it were, plunder the mind of a monk who has not attained concentration. Before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me as well: 'It's not easy to maintain seclusion, not easy to enjoy being alone. The forests, as it were, plunder the mind of a monk who has not attained concentration.' " Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125745 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 10:44 pm Subject: NEP factors as mental factors accompanying path moment jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125720) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: I think there's a question as to whether "path" only refers to understanding, and everything else is just sila. The "path" includes right action, right livelihood, right speech, etc. It is very difficult to imagine that "right speech" is not referring to speech itself but only a mental factor that for some reason is merely *called* speech, and that something as worldly as "right livelihood" is really just a mental factor but has nothing to do with what you do for a living. > =============== J: There are 2 important issues to be considered here: (1) Whether the factors of the NEP are, in the ultimate sense, the mental factors that co-arise at a moment of path consciousness, (2) Whether the path factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood in particular are the (momentary) restraint from wrong speech/action/livelihood or are a course of positive good conduct to be undertaken. 1. NEP factors as component factors of path moment (insight) First, from the suttas. In SN 55 (Sotapatti-samyutta, `Connected Discourses on Stream Entry'), sutta #5 is a dialogue between the Buddha and Sariputta. In essence, the sutta says the following: << << << << "What is a factor for stream-entry? "Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. "What is the stream? "This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, fright mindfulness, right concentration. "What is a stream-enterer? "One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan." >> >> >> >> Note that, according to the sutta, the NEP *is* the stream. This accords with the idea of the NEP factors as being the mental factors that co-arise at path moments. And the idea of the NEP *being* the stream does not seem to leave room for the idea of the NEP factors as 'descriptions of actions to be undertaken' (separately and individually). Furthermore, the stream-enterer is said to *possess* the NEP. Again, this seems to accord with the idea of the NEP factors as co-arising mental factors. Secondly, from the Vibhanga, the second book of the Abhidhamma, in the section dealing with the 4 Noble Truths (of which the NEP is the fourth - the Truth of the Path leading to Nibbana). (Ch 4 Analysis Of Truth, Summary from par. 206) << << << << Right view is wisdom, understanding right thought is mentation, thinking right speech, action and livelihood are avoiding etc the 4 verbal wrong actions, 3 wrong bodily actions and wrong livelihood respectively right effort is the arousing of mental energy right mindfulness is mindfulness right concentration is stability of consciousness, steadfastness >> >> >> >> (Summary from par. 217-218) << << << << The truth of the path-- - has immeasurable object - has path as its cause - has external object - is mental concomitants - accompanies consciousness - tends to release >> >> >> >> Note particularly that "The truth of the path is mental concomitants". Thirdly, from the Visuddhimagga, in the section dealing with the 4 Noble Truths (XVI, 75 - 83, 'The Truth Of The Way') << << << << "75. In the description of the way leading to the cessation of suffering eight things are given. Though they have, of course, already been explained as to meaning in the Description of the Aggregates, still we shall deal with them here in order to remain aware of the difference between them when they occur in a single moment on the occasion of the path. "76. Briefly, when a meditator is progressing towards the penetration of the four truths, his eye of understanding with nibbana as its object eliminates the inherent tendency to ignorance, and that is right view. It has right seeing as its characteristic. Its function is to reveal elements. It is manifested as the abolition of the darkness of ignorance." [and so on through the other 7 factors of the Eightfold Path] >> >> >> >> Note particularly the reference to the factors of the NEP occurring "in a single moment on the occasion of the path". Finally, in the CMA (the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation of the later Abhidhamma sub-commentary the Abhidhammatta Sangaha), from chapter VII. First, in the section dealing with the right and wrong paths << << << << "#17 Path Factors "Twelve path factors: (1) right view, (2) right intention, (3) right speech, (4) right action, (5) right livelihood, (6) right effort, (7) right mindfulness, (8) right concentration, (9) wrong view, (10) wrong intention, (11) wrong effort, (12) wrong concentration. "Guide to #17 "Here the word 'path' is used in the sense of that which leads to a particular destination, that is, towards the blissful states of existence, the woeful states, and Nibbaana. Of the twelve factors, the first eight lead to the blissful states and Nibbaana, the last four lead to the woeful states. "These twelve path factors can be reduced to nine cetasikas. Right view is the cetasika of wisdom. Right intention, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration are, respectively, the cetasikas of initial application, energy, mindfulness, and one-pointedness found in the wholesome and indeterminate cittas with roots. Right speech, right action, and right livelihood are the three abstinences (virati) found collectively in the supramundane cittas and separately on particular occasions in mundane wholesome cittas. "Of the four wrong path factors, wrong view is the cetasika of views ..." >> >> >> >> Note particularly, "These twelve path factors can be reduced to nine cetasikas". Secondly, in the section dealing with the 4 Noble Truths, in relation to the 4th Truth (i.e., the NEP) (VII, Guide to #38 [The Four Noble Truths]) << << << << "The noble truth of the way to the cessation of suffering is the Noble Eightfold Path. "In the teaching of the four truths, this is the collection of eight cetasikas corresponding to the eight path factors arisen in the cittas of the four supramundane paths." >> >> >> >> Note particularly that the NEP is "the collection of eight cetasikas corresponding to the eight path factors arisen in the cittas of the four supramundane paths". Jon PS Will deal with the factors of right speech/action/livelihood in a separate post. Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125746 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2012 10:50 pm Subject: Right speech, action & livelihood as restraint jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125720) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: I think there's a question as to whether "path" only refers to understanding, and everything else is just sila. The "path" includes right action, right livelihood, right speech, etc. It is very difficult to imagine that "right speech" is not referring to speech itself but only a mental factor that for some reason is merely *called* speech, and that something as worldly as "right livelihood" is really just a mental factor but has nothing to do with what you do for a living. > =============== J: There are 2 important issues to be considered here: (1) Whether the factors of the NEP are, in the ultimate sense, the mental factors that co-arise at a moment of path consciousness, (2) Whether the path factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood in particular are the (momentary) restraint from wrong speech/action/livelihood or are a course of positive good conduct to be undertaken. 2. Right speech, right action and right livelihood as restraint from wrong speech/action/livelihood First, from the suttas. In SN 45 (Maggasamyutta, `Connected Discourses on the Path'), sutta #8 gives what the translator Bhikkhu Bodhi describes as `stock definitions found elsewhere in the Pali Canon' of the eight path factors. << << << << And what, bhikkhus, is right speech? Abstinence from false speech, abstinence from divisive speech, abstinence from harsh speech, abstinence from idle speech: this is called right speech. And what, bhikkhus, is right action? Abstinence from the destruction of life, abstinence from taking what is not given, abstinence from sexual misconduct: this is called right action. And what, bhikkhus, is right livelihood? Here a noble disciple, having abandoned a wrong mode of livelihood, earns his living by a right livelihood: this is called right livelihood. >> >> >> >> Secondly, from the Vibhanga, the second book of the Abhidhamma, in the section dealing with the 4 Noble Truths (of which the NEP is the fourth - the Truth of the Path leading to Nibbana). (Ch 4 Analysis Of Truth, Summary from par. 206) << << << << Right view is wisdom, understanding right thought is mentation, thinking right speech, action and livelihood are avoiding etc the 4 verbal wrong actions, 3 wrong bodily actions and wrong livelihood respectively right effort is the arousing of mental energy right mindfulness is mindfulness right concentration is stability of consciousness, steadfastness >> >> >> >> Note particularly, "right speech, action and livelihood are avoiding etc the 4 verbal wrong actions, 3 wrong bodily actions and wrong livelihood respectively". Thirdly, from the Visuddhimagga, in the section dealing with the 4 Noble Truths (XVI, 75 - 83, 'The Truth Of The Way') << << << << "75. In the description of the way leading to the cessation of suffering eight things are given. Though they have, of course, already been explained as to meaning in the Description of the Aggregates, still we shall deal with them here in order to remain aware of the difference between them when they occur in a single moment on the occasion of the path. "76. Briefly, when a meditator is progressing towards the penetration of the four truths, his eye of understanding with nibbana as its object eliminates the inherent tendency to ignorance, and that is right view. It has right seeing as its characteristic. Its function is to reveal elements. It is manifested as the abolition of the darkness of ignorance. 77. [Description of right thinking]. 78. And when he sees and thinks thus, his abstinence from wrong speech, which abstinence is associated with that [right view], abolishes bad verbal conduct, and that is called *right speech*. It has the characteristic of embracing. Its function is to abstain. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong speech. 79. When he abstains thus, his abstinence from killing living things, which abstinence is associated with that [right view], cuts off wrong action, and that is called *right action*. It has the characteristic of originating.20 Its function is to abstain. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong action. 80. When his right speech and right action are purified, his abstinence from wrong livelihood, which abstinence is associated with that, [right view] cuts off scheming, etc., and that is called *right livelihood*. It has the characteristic of cleansing. Its function is to bring about the occurrence of a proper livelihood. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong livelihood. >> >> >> >> Note the reference to abstinence in the descriptions of these 3 factors (paras 78, 79 & 80). Finally, in the CMA (the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation of the later Abhidhamma sub-commentary the Abhidhammatta Sangaha), from chapter VII, in the section dealing with the right and wrong paths << << << << #17 Path Factors "Twelve path factors: (1) right view, (2) right intention, (3) right speech, (4) right action, (5) right livelihood, (6) right effort, (7) right mindfulness, (8) right concentration, (9) wrong view, (10) wrong intention, (11) wrong effort, (12) wrong concentration. "Guide to #17 "Here the word 'path' is used in the sense of that which leads to a particular destination, that is, towards the blissful states of existence, the woeful states, and Nibbaana. Of the twelve factors, the first eight lead to the blissful states and Nibbaana, the last four lead to the woeful states. "These twelve path factors can be reduced to nine cetasikas. Right view is the cetasika of wisdom. Right intention, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration are, respectively, the cetasikas of initial application, energy, mindfulness, and one-pointedness found in the wholesome and indeterminate cittas with roots. Right speech, right action, and right livelihood are the three abstinences (virati) found collectively in the supramundane cittas and separately on particular occasions in mundane wholesome cittas." >> >> >> >> Note particularly, "Right speech, right action, and right livelihood are the three abstinences (virati)". Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125747 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 2:39 am Subject: Self-Correction Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, I believe that rupa is included in rupakhandha but is not exactly the same thing. Khandha is a category that includes different types of rupa (past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near). > > S: Yes, "meanings of a Pali word, not an English one" > > Let's look at SN 48 (Bodhi transl): > > "At Saavatthii. 'Bhikkhus, I will teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates subject to clinging. Listen to that........ > > 'And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the form aggregate.'" > > [S: in other words, any past rupa is rupa khandha, any future rupa is rupa khandha, any rupa arising now is rupa khandha and so on. Each rupa shares the characteristics of being rupa with each other rupa, therefore each one is rupa khandha.] > With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125748 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 4:18 pm Subject: Re: Self-Correction Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, Op 1-aug-2012, om 18:39 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I believe that rupa is included in rupakhandha but is not exactly > the same thing. > > Khandha is a category that includes different types of rupa (past, > future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior > or superior, far or near). ------- N: Yes. But each one of these is past, future, etc. We always have to consider ruupa now, appearing at this moment, be it hardness, sound, etc. It arises and falls away, it is present now, and after it has fallen away it is past. When it has not arisen yet and there are conditions, it will arise, it is future. It is internal or external. We do not think of abstractions but always of what appears now, in daily life. One ruupa at a time, and it is khandha. If we do not see khandhas has an abstract classification I think that there need not be any problem. What do you think? ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125749 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 4:22 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 1. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Chapter 6. Patience in the Development of Understanding. In the third watch of the night when the Buddha attained enlightenment, he realized a Dhamma deep in meaning and, for those who are enslaved to sense pleasures, difficult to grasp. Therefore, he was for a moment inclined not to teach Dhamma. We read in the “Vinaya”( Mahåvagga I, 5) that the Buddha spent the eighth week after his enlightenment at the foot of the Goarherd’s Banyan. It was there that he was inclined not to teach Dhamma: “This that through many toils I’ve won-- Enough! Why should I make it known? By folk with lust and hate consumed This dhamma is not understood. Leading on against the stream, Subtle, deep, difficult to see, delicate, Unseen ‘twill be by passion’s slaves Cloaked in the murk of ignorance. In such wise, as the Lord pondered, his mind inclined to little effort and not to teaching dhamma....” We then read that the Brahmå Sahampati vanished from the Brahma-world and appeared before the Buddha, entreating him to teach Dhamma: “Lord, let the Lord teach dhamma, let the Well-farer teach dhamma; there are beings with little dust in their eyes who, not hearing dhamma, are decaying, (but if) they are learners of dhamma they will grow.” We read that he spoke in verse: “There has appeared in Magadha before thee An unclean dhamma by impure minds devised. Open this door of deathlessness, let them hear Dhamma awakened to by the stainless one. As on a crag on crest of mountain standing A man might watch the people far below, Even so do thou, O Wisdom fair, ascending, O Seer of all, the terraced heights of truth, Look down, from grief released, upon the peoples Sunken in grief, oppressed with birth and age. Arise, thou hero! Conquerer in the battle! Thou freed from debt! Man of the caravan! Walk the world over, let the Blessed One Teach dhamma. They who learn will grow.” We read that the Brahmå Sahampati entreated the Buddha three times to teach Dhamma. Then the Buddha, out of compassion, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One and saw beings with little dust in their eyes and beings with much dust in their eyes, of good dispositions and of bad dispositions. He saw beings who would be able to understand Dhamma and beings who would not be able to understand Dhamma. -------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125750 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in speculative philosophy sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, >________________________________ > From: truth_aerator >My belief that all things are impermanent. .... S: What are "all things"? ... > >>S:When the Buddha talked about "sabbe dhamma anicca", was he >talking about fridges? What is directly visible now? >>================================================ > >Visible too is impermanent. .... S: Yes, but what is visible now? Are fridges and people seen or just visible object? .... > >>S: Did the Buddha say it was the elements, the dhammas that were >anicca or the "somethings...made of parts"? >>============================ > >Precisely because a "whole" is made of many smaller "parts" it makes that "whole" inconstant, and anatta. .... S: Is this 'whole' directly experienced through the sense doors or just imagined through the mind door? Would a purple elephant also be inconstant and anatta or just imagined that way? .... > >If something was totally, totally independant - that would be Atta. > >>S: So there are people existing without inner cores? >>Is this through sight, through hearing or just by thinking? Did the >Buddha ever say the path was knowing the "all" abut people existing >without inner cores? >>============================== > >All phenomena depend on various other factors which is what makes them anicca, anatta and dukkha. .... S: So you're saying that a person exists without an inner core dependent on various other factors and this is what makes it anicca, anatta and dukkha? You think that these 'wholes' without inner cores are conditioned and included in the 'all' as described by the Buddha? Can these people or cordless wholes ever be directly experienced and known? Is this the Path? In the Sabba Sutta, which part of the "all" to be known are they included in? Which ayatana includes wholes and people that are conditioned? ... >>S:Dhammas exist no matter any of the activities you refer to. >Understanding dhammas doesn't mean not opening the fridge! It means >that there is no illusion that in an ultimate sense there is a >fridge. "Fridge" is not the object of satipatthana. >>========================================== > >I believe that avijja means being deluded about 4NT which has nothing to do with metaphysical speculations about what really, really exists in "ultimate" sense. .... S: The 1st NT summarizes what "really, really exists in 'ultimate sense' and is to be directly realized: in brief, the 5 khandhas of grasping. What is the way that these "really, really" existing khandhas are to be directly realized - the noble eightfold path, beginning with right understanding. No fridges there.... ... > >>S:The Buddha slep in his cave or kuti, he address people by name, >he travelled to different places - all without any illusion >whatsoever that there was anything at all arising and falling away >but namas and rupas. When there is understanding of seeing, visible >object and other realities, there is nothing problematic or >confusing at all. >>======================================================== > >I believe that the delusion which Buddha didn't have was delusion about 4NT. ... S: Right - whilst sleeping in his cave and addressing people by name, there was no delusion that anything existed other than dhammas, khandhas clung to by the unwise. Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125751 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 7:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E & Lukas, >________________________________ > From: Robert E >>L In few days I am going to my friend Luraya, and we going with her mom to Alps together. And I am tottaly scared how it will be. So scared to meet her. How to do to be accepted to make good impresion on her family, so scared. I am always not good in this socializing things. But I am so worried and affraid, like what Luraya will think of me, how I behave in different situations. If I really have a strenght to be a nice guy etc. How will I feel far from home, without my own money, depending on others. If I get enought food? etc. All so much self involved. And this is all dukkha, but i know it only intelectual understanding. In such moments I feel like having more support from my Dhamma friends here. > >R:I have those same feelings many times. Being a Dhamma student is unfortunately no protection against anxiety and insecurity, but it is possible to experience those feelings and realize - intellectually at least as you say - that they are just experiences that are coming and going, and don't really tell you the truth about reality. Sometimes it is interesting to watch a feeling like that to the end and see that at some point it fades away. It may come up again, but it is not as continuous as it seems. ... S: I think you make good points, Rob. We all have fears and worries, all except the anagami have attachment to sense objects and aversions of one kind or another (or all kinds!) as a result. As you say "Being a Dhamma student is unfortunately no protection against anxiety and insecurity". What is a real protection is the development of right understanding of such dhammas and any other conditioned dhammas arising as anatta and as anicca as you suggest. Even when really anxious or scared, there can be understanding of dhammas at such a time. They are all so very fleeting and fall away immediately. It's only the story about them that makes it seem that they last. The dramas in life will continue, the various vipakas, the thinking about worldly conditions will continue, but the understanding of realities can develop even now as we write. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125752 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 6:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: packing lists. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, >________________________________ > From: truth_aerator >>S:Yes, we behave "as if external conceptual objects are really >there", most of the time in ignorance. >>=================================================== > >A: As I understand the suttas, ignorance is mostly defined as ignoring 4NT. .... S: So starting with ignorance of the 1st NT - what is this? Each reality, each khandha is dukkha because it arises and falls away and in ignorance there is clinging to these impermanent realities. Because there is no understanding of the presently arising and falling away realities now, there is the illusion that "conceptual objects are really there". There are stories all the time about what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched without any awareness or understanding of the reality that appears now. ... > >==================================================== >>S:For the sotapanna, the outer behaviour will seem just the same - >whether driving a car, swimming with a whale or doing the dishes. >For those without understanding of dhammas, they can never >understand the sotapanna's wisdom - the wisdom that directly >understands realities as anatta whatever the behaviour seems to be >conventionally. >>==================================================== > >A:How does sotapanna differ from ordinary good person? You say the understanding of "anatta", but how does this understanding reflects on sotapanna's behaviour? .... S: From the Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentaries (B.Bodhi transl): " ' He [S: the noble learner] directly knows earth as earth' (pa.thavi.m pa.thavito abhijaanaati) Cy. He directly knows earth in its nature as earth (pa.thavii-bhaavena), unlike the worldling who perceives it with a completely perverted perception. further, he knows it with distinguished knowledge (abhivisi.t.thena ~naa.nena). What is meant is that, resolving upon the earth in accordance with its real nature as earth, he knows it as impermanent, suffering, and non-self. Sub. Cy. 'With distinguished knowledge'; without falling short of the true nature of dhammas and without overshooting the mark, as confused comprehension and wrong understanding do, he knows it with distinguished knowledge which directly confronts the true nature of dhammas without falling away from it. The meaning is: with the full understanding through scrutinization based on the full understanding of the known, and with one section (ekadesa) of the full understanding of abandoning." [S: this is referring to the 3 pari~n~nas - stages of insight]." ... S: In other words, the way that the sotapanna differs from the "ordinary good person" is primarily described in terms of his right view. There is no more doubt, no more wrong view about realities ever again. Whilst driving a car, swimming in the ocean or washing dishes, there is no more illusion that anything exists other than the various conditioned dhammas, the khandhas of grasping. The aim of the Teachings is not to change one's personality, but to eradicate defilements beginning with wrong view through the development of understanding of realities. Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (15) #125753 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 10:55 pm Subject: BEAUTIFUL ASALHA PUJA DAY...Today ! yawares1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Members, Today is Asalha Puja Day , at 5AM I saw the most magical full moon shining so brightly while I was walking meditation with Tep on the street in front of our house...I felt so peaceful and happy with Buddhas in my heart. ASALHA PUJA DAY Asalaha Puja, also referred to as "Dhamma Day", falls in the eighth month of the lunar calendar. The Buddha attained enlightenment at Bodhgaya India on the full moon of Visakha, which is the sixth lunar month. Two months later, on the full moon of Asalha, he delivered the first discourse to the five ascetics of his former association; Kondanna, Vappa, Bhaddiya, Mahanama, and Assaji, who later became his first disciples, at the Deer Park near Benares (Varanasi). This epoch making incident marks the establishment of the Buddhist religion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVGt1vw5 ... re=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yllxkK6B ... egcF0cIPLA At the end of the sermon, Kondanna attained awakening and asked for ordination, thus becoming the first Buddhist monk in history. The Order of the Sangha (community of Buddhist monks) was initiated and the Triple Gem; The Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha was complete. Lord Buddha's First Sermon is The Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta ~ “The Discourse on Turning the Wheel of Truth” The main theme of this first discourse is The Four Noble Truths, namely Suffering, the Cause of Suffering, the End of Suffering, and The Way to the End of Suffering. The Way to the End of Suffering is expanded in The Noble Eightfold Path (The Middle Way) which is: Right View, Right resolve, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration. These Four Noble Truths and the way to liberation found in the Noble Eightfold Path are the essence of Lord Buddha's teaching which makes the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta considered to be "Buddhism in a nutshell". ************ Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares/sirikanya Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125754 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 2, 2012 10:58 pm Subject: Synecdoche upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, all - The referring to specific namas and rupas as khandhas is an instance of the linguistic phenomenon called "synecdoche". The definition of that is given in the Wikipedia aricle _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synecdoche_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synecdoche) , as follows: Synecdoche ( _/_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English) _s_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _ɪ_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _ˈ_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _n_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _ɛ_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _k_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _d_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _ə _ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _k_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _iː_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key) _/_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English) , _si-NEK-də-kee_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pronunciation_respelling_key) ; from _Greek_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) synekdoche (συΜεκΎοχή), meaning "simultaneous understanding", is a _figure of speech_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speech) _[1]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synecdoche#cite_note-m-w-0) in which a term is used in one of the following ways: * Part of something is used to refer to the whole thing (_pars pro toto_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pars_pro_toto) ), or * A thing (a "whole") is used to refer to part of it (_totum pro parte_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totum_pro_parte) ), or * A specific class of thing is used to refer to a larger, more general class, or * A general class of thing is used to refer to a smaller, more specific class, or * A material is used to refer to an object composed of that material, or * A container is used to refer to its contents. It is the 2nd item in this list that is the case in point. Another example of this whole-for-part usage mentioned in the article is the following: "He's good people." [Here, the word "people" is used to denote a specific instance of people, i.e., a person. So the sentence would be interpreted as "He's a good person."] Some additional examples from another site are the following: At the Olympics, you will hear that the United States won a gold medal in an event. That actually means a team from the United States, not the country as a whole. If “the world” is not treating you well, that would not be the entire world but just a part of it that you've encountered. The word "society" is often used to refer to high society or the social elite. The word "police" can be used to represent only one or a few police officers. [On yet another site is given the example "The police knocked down my door " whole (the police) for part (some police officers)] The "pentagon" can refer to a few decision-making generals. "Capitol Hill" refers to both the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125755 From: Alex Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 2:38 am Subject: Re: Self-Correction Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Sarah, all, I believe that one has to clarify the necessity of phenomena having to be anicca,dukkha, anatta. These can never be learned through quantitative observation. Only as structural principle in a sense of "all triangles have three sides". One doesn't have to observe all infinity of triangles in order to realize that what makes triangle is the fact that it has to have three sides. >Nina: "We always have to consider ruupa now, appearing at this moment, be it hardness, >sound, etc. " >================== Sure, as a practice of some sort. Rather than to react in a lobha/dosa/moha, why not respond in good, kusala way. With best wishes, Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125757 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 2:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Synecdoche moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard , all, thanks for the food for thought , Howard. first thoughts: Howard concludes 'The referring to specific namas and rupas as khandhas is an instance of the linguistic phenomenon called "synecdoche". Question 1 : is it so? Question 2: if yes, what does it say in respect to Ven . Nyanatiloka's definition of the khandhas, in particular: "these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha" . H: 1. synekdoche (συΜεκΎοχή), meaning "simultaneous understanding", is a _figure of speech_in which a term is used in one of the following ways: snip .. It is the 2nd item in this list that is the case in point :* A thing (a "whole") is used to refer to part of it (_totum pro parte example of this whole-for-part usage mentioned in the article is the following: "He's good people.. At the Olympics, you will hear that the United States won a gold medal in an event. D:Refering to khandha , example : vinnana khandha = eye - , ear-, tongue- ,nose- , bodily- and mind-consciousness (, involved are the rupa dhammas of sight, sound , scent,taste,tangible and nama dhamma thought.. it is all what the living being can be conscious about , i.e. consciousness their common. What is constantly arising and ceasing are the phenomena among the 6senses media , sound may cease, scent arise etc. , but - strictly speaking the consciousness khandha is not (coma,death exluded) . Similar to speak of the U.S. winning a gold medal ( I wonder whether one would speak of US losing a gold medal in case of doping e.g. ) is a matter of -strictly speaking - incorrect use of the language 2. Ven. Nyanatiloka: "The fact ought to be emphasized here that these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha, but that they as such, i.e. as just these 5 complete groups, have no real existence, since only single representatives of these groups, mostly variable, can arise with any state of consciousness. For example, with one and the same unit of consciousness only one single kind of feeling, say joy or sorrow, can be associated and never more than one. Similarly, two different perceptions cannot arise at the same moment. Also, of the various kinds of sense-cognition or consciousness, only one can be present at a time, for example, seeing, hearing or inner consciousness, etc. Of the 50 mental formations, however, a smaller or larger number are always associated with every state of consciousness, as we shall see later on. Some writers on Buddhism who have not understood that the five khandha are just classificatory groupings, have conceived them as compact entities ('heaps', 'bundles'), while actually, as stated above, the groups never exist as such, i.e. they never occur in a simultaneous totality of all their constituents. Also those single constituents of a group which are present in any given body- and -mind process, are of an evanescent nature, and so also their varying combinations. Feeling, perception and mental formations are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities." My conclusion , the Venerable is right. Acc. to the sutta sources the Buddha spoke of rising and ceasing khandhas, but I think he would not have used it when it comes to Abhidhammic precession , where concept and reality are distingushed . It was not necessary , because he did not made such distinction and therefore it was understood as a figure of speech , likewise when we read that the US won a medal. With Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125758 From: Alex Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in speculative philosophy truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, all, >S:What are "all things"? All phenomena that we can experience, including concepts. >S:Yes, but what is visible now? Are fridges and people seen or just >visible object? >=================== Of course people and fridges are visible. That is why we don't mistake one for the other. If we want food we open the fridge, not the person, and if we need to ask something, we ask a person, not a fridge. >S:Is this 'whole' directly experienced through the sense doors or >just imagined through the mind door? >================================= It is mental abstraction of experience called whole/parts, or conventional/ultimate. >S:Would a purple elephant also be inconstant and anatta or just >imagined that way? >================================ Purple Elephant *as imagination* is impermanent because imagination (nama) is impermanent. >S...Can these people or cordless wholes ever be directly experienced >and known? >========================================= What we abstractly call "Ultimate/Conventional, part/whole" is a mental process that itself is anicca... etc. Obviously we distinguish between a door and a wall. If these are not distinguished, then how come we always in right state of mind go through the door and don't attempt to walk through the wall?! It is things like that which bother me about certain kinds of ontology. With best wishes, Alex qtl { position: absolute; border: 1px solid #cccccc; -moz-border-radius: 5px; opacity: 0.2; line-height: 100%; z-index: 999; direction: ltr; } qtl:hover,qtl.open { opacity: 1; } qtl,qtlbar { height: 22px; } qtlbar { display: block; width: 100%; background-color: #cccccc; cursor: move; } qtlbar img { border: 0; padding: 3px; height: 16px; width: 16px; cursor: pointer; } qtlbar img:hover { background-color: #aaaaff; } qtl>iframe { border: 0; height: 0; width: 0; } qtl.open { height: auto; } qtl.open>iframe { height: 200px; width: 300px; } [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125759 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 2:46 am Subject: Re: Synecdoche moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email test [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125760 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 7:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Synecdoche upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 8/2/2012 2:29:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Acc. to the sutta sources the Buddha spoke of rising and ceasing khandhas, but I think he would not have used it when it comes to Abhidhammic precession , where concept and reality are distingushed . It was not necessary , because he did not made such distinction ------------------------------------------------------- HCW: You have made me smile, Dieter! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------- and therefore it was understood as a figure of speech , likewise when we read that the US won a medal. ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125761 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 7:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Synecdoche upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Passed! With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/2/2012 2:33:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: test [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125762 From: "Christine" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 8:46 am Subject: First-Ever White House Conference of Dharmic Faiths christine_fo... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello all, An interesting article on Bhikkhu Bodhi's Blog - First-Ever White House Conference of Dharmic Faiths Until recently conferences on interfaith cooperation in the U.S. have almost always centered on the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Yet over the past forty years America has become a much more diversified and pluralistic society. The relaxing of restrictions on immigration, followed by the post-war upheavals in Southeast Asia in the 1970s, has dramatically transformed our population. Large numbers of Americans now have religious roots that go back, not to the deserts of Judea and Arabia, but to the plains, mountains, and villages of ancient India. For convenience, these are grouped together under the designation "the Dharmic faiths." They include Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, and Sikhs, and their national origins range from Pakistan to Japan, from Burma to Vietnam, and from Mongolia to Sri Lanka. Not all are immigrants. At least one whole generation of people of Asian descent has been born and raised in America, and think of themselves principally as Americans following a Dharmic religion. [……….] http://buddhistglobalrelief.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/first-ever-white-house-conf\ erence-of-dharmic-faiths-2/ with metta Chris Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125763 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 12:45 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125714) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: I do think that we should try to reduce "akusala behavior" and that the Buddha would not have promoted good behavior if it was *only awareness* that was being promoted, and not behavior as well. Buddha did not ever say "Go kill as many chickens as you like - when awareness arises naturally you will gain insight anyway." The suggestion is in the opposite direction. I think most people try to do this anyway. I don't think anyone in the group runs around trying to trip people so they can enjoy watching them fall down, or makes a regular habit of stealing. Probably the akusala we engage in is more subtle and on the mental level, or at least concerned with private activities, or sort of the normal things like drinking a little wine [a semi-medical activity of mine since the red wine reports...]. But I do think we should be moving in the right direction, however gradually. I also think we can have such an intention without an idea of control, but just of gradually moving in the right direction. After you've tried to control the current habits for a few decades I think you realize that it's not in your hands. > =============== J: You talk about `moving in the right direction'. Yes, but it's a matter of what that involves, in the context of the path leading to escape from samsara. Does it involve reducing akusala behaviour, or does it involve a better understanding of dhammas? We keep coming back to this point, don't we :-)) I quote again the passage from the Visuddhimagga (Ch XXIII) that explains that the first among the `benefits in developing understanding' is the removal of various defilements: "2. Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This starts with the delimitation of mentality-materiality. ..." Clearly from this, the `right direction' is a better understanding of dhammas ("delimitation of mentality-materiality") leading to a lessening of the idea of self ("[mistaken] view of individuality"). Of course, with the development of a better understanding of dhammas comes the development (and purification) of sila; it's not a case of better sila having to precede the development of the path. The development of sila is always to be encouraged; but on its own it is not a goal to be aspired to. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125764 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 6:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, >________________________________ > From: Dieter Moeller >the issue of bojjhanga is quite important , so I will refer only to that , coming back to the other points later. > >you wrote: > >(D: yes, it has to begin with mindfulness , the first of the 7 links to enlightenment.) >... >S: With understanding, mindfulness and the other factors. They develop together. >... > >D: hm.... just to recall the 7 (Buddh.Dict.) > >a.. bojjhanga >'the 7 factors of enlightenment', are: > >a.. mindfulness (sati-sambojjhanga; s. sati), >b.. investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga), >c.. energy (viriya-sambojjhanga; s. viriya, padhana), >d.. rapture (piti-sambojjhanga, q.v.) >e.. tranquility (passaddhi-sambojjhanga, q.v.), >f.. concentration (samadhi-sambojjhanga, q.v.), >g.. equanimity (upekkha). >"Because they lead to enlightenment, therefore they are called factors of enlightenment" (S. XLVI, 5). > >Though in the 2nd factor, dhamma-vicaya, the word dhamma is taken by most translators to stand for the Buddhist doctrine, it probably refers to the bodily and mental phenomena (nama-rupa-dhamma) as presented to the investigating mind by mindfulness, the 1st factor. With that interpretation, the term may be rendered by 'investigation of phenomena'. > >D: I suppose a thundering Yes ! ... but frankly speaking I miss the substantiation for a different interpretation than ' by most translators'. .... S: Dhamma-vicaya is panna cetasika. In the Abhidhamma it is given as a synonym of panna, sampajanna, vijja and so on. From CMA, Ch 7, after listing the 7 bojjhangas, the guide note says: "Among the seven factors of enlightenment, investigation of states (dhammavicaya) is a designation for wisdom (pa~n~naa), insight into mental and material phenomena as they really are...." .... > >'In A.X.102, the 7 factors are said to be the means of attaining the threefold wisdom (s. tevijja).''In Brahmanism means 'knower of the 3 Vedas' (tri-vidya), in Buddhism means one who has realised 3 kinds of knowledge, to wit: > >a.. remembrance of former rebirths, > >b.. the divine eye, > >c.. extinction of all cankers. ' > >D:The sutta doesn't refer to the three characteristics of life , ti-lakkhana , which could have allowed above interpretation .... S: Without an understanding of the ti-lakkhana of all conditioned dhammas, there can never be an extinction of any cankers. .... > >'They may be attained by means of the 4 foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana), as it is said in S.XLVI.1 and explained in M.118: > >a.. (1) "Whenever, o monks, the monk dwells contemplating the body (kaya), feeling (vedana), mind (citta) and mind-objects (dhamma), strenuous, clearly-conscious, mindful, after subduing worldly greed and grief, at such a time his mindfulness is present and undisturbed; and whenever his mindfulness is present and undisturbed, at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'mindfulness' (sati-sambojjhanga), and thus this factor of enlightenment reaches fullest perfection. > >b.. (2) "Whenever, while dwelling with mindfulness, he wisely investigates, examines and thinks over the law ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'investigation of the law' (dhamma-vicaya°) .... > >D:'investigates, examines and thinks over the law vs : the term may be rendered by 'investigation of phenomena'. ... S: Sati sampajanna - sati and panna developed together with the other factors until they become enlightenment factors. ... > >The majority of translators may refute the latter as an unfounded restriction.. > >a.. (3) "Whenever, while wisely investigating his energy is firm and unshaken ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'energy' (viriya°) .... > >b.. (4) "Whenever in him, while firm in energy, arises super sensuous rapture ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'rapture' (piti°) .. > >c.. (5) "Whenever, while enraptured in mind, his body and his mind become composed ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'tranquillity' (passaddhi°). > >d.. (6) "Whenever, while being composed in his body and happy, his mind becomes concentrated ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'concentration' (samadhi°) > >e.. (7) "Whenever he looks with complete indifference on his mind thus concentrated ... at such a time he has gained and is developing the factor of enlightenment 'equanimity' (upekkha). > >D: above states in respect to each of the 7 factors 'whenever.. at such a time ' . >It is not clear to me what you mean by 'With understanding, mindfulness and the other factors. They develop together'. ... S: Without the development of the understanding of names and rupas, these other mental factors can never become bhojjangas. For example, viriya or right effort. There is right effort at all moments of kusala, but what makes it right effort of the path which can eventually become a bhojjanga? Only the right understanding which clearly knows realities as anatta - it has to be the right effort accompanying this understanding. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125765 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 6:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -viriya 1 - welfare for the householders sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Dieter, >________________________________ > From: Dieter Moeller >S: At a moment of seeing, the experiencing of visible object is "All" that exist at that moment. > >D: the 'All' is a constant stream of rising and ceasing (senses) phenomena . ... S: Only one 'world', one reality can be experienced at a time. So at the moment of seeing, there is only the experience of visible object. Nothing else appears at all. Just one citta at a time. Remember the quote from the Vism we like to give: Vism, V111, 39: "As to the shortness of the moment: in the ultimate sense the life moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls (that is, touches the ground) only on one point of (the circumference of) its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according as it is said: 'In a past conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a future conscious moment not he did live, not he does live, he will live. In the present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will live. " 'Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow' " (Nd.1,42) "This is how death should be recollected as to the shortness of the moment." ... D:> Attention towards a visible object , the citta eye-consciousness, does not mean other objects / the other senses media don't exist. ... S: Only one door-way at a time, only one object is experienced at a time. This is the 'all' to be known - just the reality appearing. Other rupas are arising and falling away all the time, but if they are not experienced, they cannot be known, they are not the field of understanding at that moment. ... >The stream is real , but our reality appears to be only that, we our conscious of ( in fact only a very small quantity out of available millions of passing phenomena , which are sub-conscious ). By the unexpected we are reminded on a choice among the many... ... S: No choice.... it is just the reality which is conditioned to be experienced now that can be known. There is no 'stream' now - just one world, one reality that can be understood. ... >S: Satipatthana has to develop now when there has been the clear understanding of present realities. > >D: I would put it like :the understanding of realities is possible with the development of mindfulness . ( second and first link of bojjhanga) ... S: Sati-sampajanna - awareness and right understanding. They arise together and have different functions. ... > >S:To realise the unconditioned dhamma, the only way is the development of satipatthana, this is the Path. > >D: the all of dhammas is conditioned , we may speak of the unconditioned (dhatu) = nibbana ... S: Yes, nibbana is the unconditioned element - also one of the "all of dhammas" to be realized. See the Sabba Sutta. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (27) #125766 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 6:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H & Rob E, >________________________________ > From: Ken H >>> KH: Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. >>> > >> S: I do. There are so many similar examples in the Vinaya. >------ > >KH: I'm not sure what either of us is referring to there. Perhaps I was trying to say to Rob E that the Buddha taught satipathana. He didn't teach, for example, the absence of akusala without satipathana. > >So I think I was saying the blind monk's absence of akusala was not a commonplace absence. It was in fact an absence that was due to the Path. I was suggesting that the monk might have been an ariyan, and the non-arising of akusala kamma patha was due to the destruction (complete or partial) of defilements. .... S: Regardless of whether there was any understanding on the part of the monk, regardless of whether he was an ariyan or not, the Buddha stressed that if there were no intention to kill or harm, there is no blame in that regard. When he lay down the Patimokkha rules it was for all the monks regardless of any attainments. I agree with you that all such rules were taught together with satipatthana. I may be missing your point..... ... > >-------------- >>> KH: He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. >>> > >> S: As Rob E mentioned, this would be a Jain approach if one were to avoid >walking because of inevitable deaths of insects or wear a net over one's face. >It's the intention that counts. >--------------- > >KH: As I was saying to Rob, in ultimate reality there was *no akusala kamma patha.* So our conventional stories of what happened should reflect that ultimate reality. It's hard – and I think even the monk's friends found it hard – to think of a story in which someone could walk down a caterpillar infested track without being in some way malicious or irresponsible. .... S: Yes, stories about what states we think should be arising will never help us to understand the reality at this moment. ... > >Can you think of a suitable conventional explanation? I know we all drive our cars, for example, knowing full well that insects are going to be accidentally killed. We take it for granted that there is nothing wrong – no unwholesome intention – involved in doing that, but isn't it just a matter of degree? If people (instead of mere insects) were inevitably going to be accidentally killed every time we drove our cars, would we still be excused for doing so? .... S: Again, that would just be another story for people to argue about rather than an understanding of what appears now. We can't judge from the situation - there are so many cittas arising and falling away all the time. Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125767 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 6:47 pm Subject: Kusala and akusala activities (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125677) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: As I have hypothesized before, I don't think that someone who has a preponderance of akusala is going to have much chance of the sustained moments of kusala necessary to awaken to anything. To resolve that question, we would have to discuss accumulations and tendencies, which I'm happy to do if you feel like it. It's not a matter of an individual kusala citta in my view, which if single, will quickly be swallowed up in the waves of akusala. > =============== J: It's not really a matter of hypothesizing, but of studying the Pali Canon (the teachings of the Buddha and the commentaries on those teachings). Nowhere is it said that a certain level of sila is necessary before there can be a beginning to the understanding of dhammas. And once that understanding begins, sila is also developed. Kusala of the level of awareness/insight is stronger than any akusala. > =============== > > J: (Again, this is not to suggest that kusala actions are not important; they are, but kusala sila does not constitute the development of the path.) > > RE: I think without some degree of accumulation of kusala and tendency towards more regular arising of kusala, the path is not going to be seen, let alone developed, so I think sila and whatever other kusala may be cultivated may be more important as a supporting condition for understanding than you may be suggesting here. > =============== J: Regarding "I think without some degree of accumulation of kusala and tendency towards more regular arising of kusala, the path is not going to be seen, let alone developed", this supposition/hypothesizing on your part. Everyone begins from where they are. Good sila or poor sila, the development of the understanding of dhammas can begin, as long as there has been the right exposure to the teachings, and what has been heard is properly understood. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125768 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 9:11 pm Subject: Kusala and akusala activities (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125677) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > > > J: Note that the text does not speak of kusala or akusala actions. It talks about acting with kusala/akusala mental states. > > RE: It does not affirm or deny the idea that certain types of actions may be the expression of 'speaking or acting with pure mind.' If one is 'acting with pure mind' that person will not be murdering someone. That would be impossible, would it not? > =============== J: My point was the the idea of `kusala/akusala actions' is actually a matter of kusala/akusala mind states manifesting as acts of speech and body. > =============== > RE: That is confusing to me - please explain how the word "forerunner" refers to a concurrent mental state? In what sense would the word "forerunner" apply to such a situation? "Forerunner" means literally that which comes before and either sets the stage or creates what comes after. Is there a special meaning of "forerunner" that I am missing here? I mean one that makes sense of the meaning of the word. What is the mental state "coming before?" > =============== J: Here is the text again: "Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked/pure mind, suffering/affection follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox." I think the meaning is that the wicked/pure mind is the forerunner of the suffering/affection that follows. > =============== > > J: As far as the development of the path is concerned, the important thing is that what we take for conventional actions are nothing other than namas and rupas, and it is namas and rupas that are to be known, regardless of the ethical nature of the action currently being performed. > > RE: So are we to know "foolish babble" as namas and rupas? That is fine if so. But that is seeing the real dhammas within the speech act, not denying that speech is taking place, whatever rupas that may involve. > =============== J: Conventionally speaking, there is a speech act taking place; in terms of dhammas, however, there are certain volition moments (and other dhammas) that manifest as a speech act. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125769 From: "Yawares Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 9:21 pm Subject: Vassa Candle Festival/Parade In Thailand yawares1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email HAPPY VASSA DAY to all members! This Vassa Day I would like to show you the beautiful Candle festival/parade in Ubon Ratchathani,Thailand. I had a chance to watch such a wonderful candle parade only once in my life standing in the hot sunlight on the street with my pretty Thai umbrella: http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... chiang+mai http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... C+thailand Thanks to youtube I can watch it again and again in my cool computer room. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rtoLXmrUg4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NwJzU9R ... ure=relmfu Vassa (from Pali - vasso, Burmese - waso, Thai - pansa or phansaa), also called Rains Retreat, is the traditional retreat during the rainy season lasting for three lunar months from July to October. During this time Buddhist monks remain in a single place, generally in their temples. In some monasteries, monks dedicate the vassa to intensive meditation. During vassa, many lay people reinvigorate their spiritual training and adopt more ascetic practices, such as giving up meat, alcohol, or smoking. Vassa is sometimes known as "Buddhist Lent", though at least one prominent Theravada monk has objected to this usage. In countries such as Thailand, the laity will often take monastic vows for period of vassa and return to lay life afterwards. Commonly, the number of years a monk has spent in monastic life is expressed by counting the number of vassas he has observed. The vassa retreat has largely been given up by Mahayana Buddhists, as Mahayana Buddhism has typically flourished in regions without a rainy season. However for Mahayana schools such as Zen and Tibetan Buddhism other forms of retreat are common. The observation of vassa is said to originate with the Buddha himself. Gautama Buddha ordered his disciples to observe a pre-existing practice whereby holy men avoided travel for a three month period during the rainy season, in order to avoid damaging crops. Vassa begins on the first day of the waning moon of the eighth lunar month, the preceding day is Asalha Puja. The focus of celebration by the laity is the first day of vassa during which worshippers donate candles and other necessities to temples, in a ceremony which has reached its most extravagant form in the Ubon Ratchathani Candle Festival. Vassa is followed by two of the major festivals of the year among Theravada Buddhists, Wan Awk Pansa and Kathina. The end of vassa is marked by joyous celebration. The following month, the kathina ceremony is held, during which the laity gathers to make formal offerings of robe cloth and other requisites to the Sangha. ************ Love Buddha's dhamma, yawares/sirikanya Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125770 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 9:26 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125661) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: To my understanding, when the texts speak of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, etc., they are speaking of the akusala kamma patha of that name and not of conventional actions that may appear to correspond to those akusala kamma patha. > > RE: I can understand how sexual desire or intention could be a mental state, but I do not see how "unlawful sexual intercourse," which is a physical kamma patha, could possibly be reduced to a mental state alone. I understand that you see it that way, but can you explain how "unlawful sexual intercourse" arises as a dhamma rather than as an act between conventional bodies in the world? > =============== J: I have not been saying that akusala kamma patha is simply and purely a mental state. Most akusala kamma patha does manifest as (conventional) action through body or speech. But in terms of the dhammas spoken of by the Buddhda, conventional acts are only namas and rupas, regardless of whether the act is one that forms part of kamma patha or is an act such as brushing one's teeth or reading/writing a message on the list. However, of all the dhammas involved in an act of kamma patha, it is the mental factor of intention that, as kamma condition, conditions the vipaka/result, namely, the future experience of a pleasant or unpleasant object. Only cetana can condition vipaka; rupas cannot. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125771 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 9:37 pm Subject: Pa~n~naa the most precious. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, no 20 of the 85 short talks on Dhamma: Pa~n~naa is more precious than gold. Pa~n~naa is more precious than anything else. It is in the citta, it has been accumulated and it does not disappear, even in next lives. The horse Kanthaka of Prince Siddhatta who took him outside the palace, was reborn as a deva. He visited the Buddha and could attain enlightenment to the stage of the sotaapanna. Everybody has accumulated qualities in the citta, and these are naama which cannot be seen. There are accumulations of akusala, kusala, pa~n~naa, saddhaa (confidence in kusala). Actions through body and speech arise according to accumulated conditions. If there were no citta there would not be any actions. Pa~n~naa, right understanding, is most precious and it cannot be stolen by thieves, nor carried off by water. When we part from this world it is not known by anybody where we will be reborn, but what has been accumulated can be a condition at the right time to understand the Dhamma such as in the case of Angulimaala (who killed many people) or the horse Kanthaka. The accumulated right understanding can condition at the right time the elimination of ignorance and clinging. All the time pa~n~naa is accumulated as sa.nkhaarakkhandha (the khandha of mental formations, including all good qualities). No matter in which life one is reborn, what has been accumulated is there. The pa~n~naa of the horse Kanthaka was accumulated in the citta but it had no opportunity to arise during his life as an animal. But when he was reborn as the deva Kanthaka, the pa~n~naa that had been accumulated could, when he listened to the Dhamma, eradicate doubt and ignorance, and he could realize the four noble Truths. Nobody knows during each life about pa~n~naa that has been accumulated in the citta. ******* Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125772 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 3, 2012 9:41 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 3. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, When we were in Sarnath it was full moon, Uposatha day. In the afternoon we were sitting on the grass, not far from the place of the first sermon. We listened to the same words the Buddha once spoke to the five disciples (Vinaya, Mahåvagga, I, 6. 19 a.f.): “And this, monks, is the ariyan truth of dukkha: birth is dukkha, and old age is dukkha and disease is dukkha and dying is dukkha, association with what is not dear is dukkha, separation from what is dear is dukkha, not getting what one wants is dukkha-- in short the five khandhas of grasping are dukkha..." The Buddha then explained the ariyan truth of the arising of dukkha, the ariyan truth of the ceasing of dukkha and the ariyan truth of the course leading to the ceasing of dukkha. Venerable Bhikkhu Dhammadharo spoke to us about Koùèañña, the first of the disciples who attained enlightenment. We read that the Buddha said: “ ‘Indeed, Koùèañña has understood, indeed, Koùèañña has understood.’ Thus it was that Aññå Koùèañña became the venerable Koùèañña’s name.” (Vinaya, Mahåvagga I, 6. 31) Aññå Koùèañña had understood, he had “crossed over doubt”, which means that he had attained the stage of the sotåpanna. We read that he asked for ordination and that the Buddha ordained him with the words:”Come, monk, well taught is dhamma, fare the Brahma-faring for making an utter end of dukkha.” The other four disciples also became sotåpannas and asked for ordination. Thus, the Sangha was formed. After the Buddha had taught them more about the five khandhas which are impermanent, dukkha and not self, they all attained arahatship. The full moon was rising and after an outdoor picnic in the garden of the Thai temple we all went around the Stupa three times, paying respect with candles and incense. While we were going around the Stupa we considered nåma and rúpa. The development of understanding of them is the only way to know that seeing is dukkha, visible object is dukkha, hardness is dukkha, the experience of hardness is dukkha. After the chanting we returned to the Thai temple where we sat outside for another Dhamma conversation. We talked about the perfections the Buddha had accumulated during his lives as a Bodhisatta and we talked about satipaììhåna. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125773 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011 moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah , all, you wrote: ( I suggest to agree what Howard previously suggested ; it is a matter of speech. > Strictly speaking , making a difference between realities (dhammas ) and concept (khandha, a group of specified dhammas)... .... S: Can you find me any quote from the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries (not Nyantiloka - there are some errors in the dictionary) which suggests khandhas are concepts and not realities (dhammas)? When the suttas repeatedly refer to the understanding of khandhas as anicca, dukkha and anatta, are they referring to concepts as being anicca, dukkha and anatta or to realities(dhammas) as having these ti-lakkhana, do you think? D: Please compare with the previous postings (Synedoche). I don't have anything to add. There are likely some errors in the dictionary - considered that this outstanding work has been published 1950, far from our todays's easy availability of Dhamma sources . One I have in mind ( and this one you certainly not.. ;-) ) is the proposition ( of asankhataa dhamma ) including nibbana in (Paramattha ) dhamma , instead of using asankhataa (dhatu) as a synonym for nibbana. D: the all of dhammas is conditioned , we may speak of the unconditioned (dhatu) = nibbana S: Yes, nibbana is the unconditioned element - also one of the "all of dhammas" to be realized. See the Sabba Sutta. D: I put ' dhatu ' in brackets , because here dhatu must be understood as 'source' ( Term used in compounds such as dharma-dhatu, Buddha-dhatu, loka-dhatu in the sense of 'source' or 'matrix' Oxf.Dict.of Buddhism), not as 'element ', usually in connection with the All/ senses media . Reading the Sabba Sutta below ( translation and note by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html ), I assume that you stick to the dubious interpretation of the commentary instead of taking from the sutta what indeed is said . with Metta Dieter S.N.35, 23 Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Note 1. The Commentary's treatment of this discourse is very peculiar. To begin with, it delineates three other "All's" in addition to the one defined here, one of them supposedly larger in scope than the one defined here: the Allness of the Buddha's omniscience (literally, All-knowingness). This, despite the fact that the discourse says that the description of such an all lies beyond the range of explanation. Secondly, the Commentary includes nibbana (unbinding) within the scope of the All described here - as a dhamma, or object of the intellect - even though there are many other discourses in the Canon specifically stating that nibbana lies beyond the range of the six senses and their objects. Sn 5.6, for instance, indicates that a person who has attained nibbana has gone beyond all phenomena (sabbe dhamma), and therefore cannot be described. MN 49 discusses a "consciousness without feature" (viññanam anidassanam) that does not partake of the "Allness of the All." Furthermore, the following discourse (SN 35.24) says that the "All" is to be abandoned. At no point does the Canon say that nibbana is to be abandoned. Nibbana follows on cessation (nirodha), which is to be realized. Once nibbana is realized, there are no further tasks to be done. Thus it seems more this discourse's discussion of "All" is meant to limit the use of the word "all" throughout the Buddha's teachings to the six sense spheres and their objects. As the following discourse shows, this would also include the consciousness, contact, and feelings connected with the sense spheres and their objects. Nibbana would lie outside of the word, "all." This would fit in with another point made several times in the Canon: that dispassion is the highest of all dhammas (Iti 90), while the arahant has gone beyond even dispassion (Sn 4.6; Sn 4.10). This raises the question, if the word "all" does not include nibbana, does that mean that one may infer from the statement, "all phenomena are not-self" that nibbana is self? The answer is no. As AN 4.174 states, to even ask if there is anything remaining or not remaining (or both, or neither) after the cessation of the six sense spheres is to differentiate what is by nature undifferentiated (or to objectify the unobjectified - see the Introduction to MN 18). The range of differentiation goes only as far as the "All." Perceptions of self or not-self, which would count as differentiation, would not apply beyond the "All." When the cessation of the "All" is experienced, all differentiation is allayed. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (6) #125774 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 11:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E Yes Right speech is not just restraining of wrong speech, it is at the moment of speaking where speech is consider right or wrong. Restraining at the moment is the arising of kusala mental factor and not right speech. As you say, this is the same for all body and verbal acts. the moment where it is done, it is where it is consider right or wrong, if not it is just consider the arising of kusala or akusala mental factors cheers KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125775 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kenh1 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E >I don't think the Buddha ever proposed that the blind monk who stepped on the caterpillars would have been fine if he had stepped on the caterpillars purposely. And if someone keeps killing chickens intentionally after hearing the teachings, that would not be kusala, would it? Don't the teachings say to abstain from killing? K: the act of killing, there must be an intention to kill. If one accidentally steps on a snail or caterpillars, it is not killing because there is no intention to kill. Abstain is the result at the moment when one intents to kill, one stop that act. KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125776 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 11:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah, ------- <. . .> >> KH: I was suggesting that the monk might have been an ariyan, and the non-arising of akusala kamma patha was due to the destruction (complete or partial) of defilements. >> > S: Regardless of whether there was any understanding on the part of the monk, -------- KH: Sorry for being pedantic, Sarah, but aren't you straying into dangerous territory there? Isn't the Dhamma always about understanding? --------------- > S: regardless of whether he was an ariyan or not, the Buddha stressed that if there were no intention to kill or harm, there is no blame in that regard. ---------------- KH: We must be talking at cross purposes. For whom was there no blame? As we all agree, there was no one there - just a concept. Would the Buddha ever have bothered to point out blame, or no blame, for a mere concept? And getting back to the "regardless of whether there was understanding" point, if there is no understanding there is no way out, and samsara is perpetuated by kusala and akusala alike. Is kusala kamma blameless in those circumstances? If the monk was not an ariyan but a just an uninstructed worldling, the non-arising of akusala kamma patha would have been conditioned by something other than the 8fold path. In that case, this sutta – in order to be an exposition of the 8fold path - could only have been about Patimokkha rule making. --------------------- > S: When he lay down the Patimokkha rules it was for all the monks regardless of any attainments. --------------------- KH: In a no-control context those rules can only be for the purpose of describing the Dhamma, can't they? The rules help ariyan and non-ariyan monks to behave in a manner that is metaphorical (descriptive) of the path factors. If conditions don't permit adherence to the rules then the monk disrobes without disgrace. So they are rules by name only (not in the ordinary sense). --------------------------------- > S: I agree with you that all such rules were taught together with satipatthana. --------------------------------- KH It's hard to have an argument with all this agreement going on, but we are managing quite well. :-) ---------- > S: I may be missing your point..... ---------- KH: My new approach to sutta discussions is to hop in and have a go. Previously I thought I should at least wait until I knew which topic the sutta was addressing. (Or, as in this case, whether the monk in question was an ariyan or not.) A lot of egg-on-face can be avoided that way, but what the heck! As long as I interpret the sutta in a way that is consistent with the Dhamma I can't go far wrong. Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125777 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 2:57 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. > > >KH: Why was that monk not blamed by the Buddha? Was it because he did not intentionally kill anything? I don't think so. He intentionally walked even though there was a caterpillar plague and walking would, in his case, inevitably mean killing. So it was the same thing. > > > >R: I'm not sure if you can draw that conclusion. > ... > S: I don't agree with Ken H there either. He was not blamed because he did not intentionally kill. This is quite different from knowing that inevitably when we walk down a path, dig the earth or breathe the air that insects will be harmed. The Buddha did not follow the Jain approach because it all comes down to the intention to harm, dosa-rooted cittas. That is a very different emphasis than focusing on 'harmful acts.' Though I've taken the latter point of view to some extent in my conversations with Jon, I understand your point. > >The fact that the monk was blind has something to do with the story, and it is his blindness that made it impossible for him to navigate without killing the caterpillars. There is usually a practical understanding in Buddhism that there are certain extreme conditions that cannot be met. One can drink alcohol as part of a medicinal potion, but not for recreation. One can't kill intentionally but one can be forgiven for killing when it is unavoidable. Could the monk live without walking anywhere? What was the alternative? > .... > S: The precepts are not "cans" and can'ts" - they are a description of particular cittas, particular intentions, kamma patha and the consequences of such. With regard to alcohol, there is not necessarily any akusala kamma patha involved at all. That is interesting. > The harm is in the accumulation and leading to breaking the other precepts, more akusala kamma patha. > ... > > > >R: In Jainism those who are orthodox wear a net over their face so they won't accidentally inhale small insects and kill them. Buddhism rejects this kind of extreme. > ... > S: Exactly - because it is looking at situations rather than intentions. > .... Okay. ... > >R: And yet definite conventional actions are praised and blamed by the Buddha, and I believe that this aspect of Dhamma is meant to be taken seriously, as I believe does Rob K. I think you are wrong on this one. There is no controlling person, but actions still have consequences. > ... > S: You've continued to have an interesting discussion with Jon on this topic. It is always just dhammas that can be understood - cittas, cetasikas and rupas appearing now, one at a time. I wonder if we can say that the physical aspect of kamma patha is purely expressed in terms of rupas...? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125778 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 5:36 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, no 4. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, The Buddha taught for fortyfive years and when he was eighty he passed finally away. In Kusínara we visited the place of his parinibbåna and the place of his cremation. A temple with a recumbent Buddha image marks the place of his parinibbåna. When the Buddha was resting he was doing so in the “lion’s posture”: lying on his right side, “putting one foot on the other, collected and composed, with his mind set on rising up again” (Kindred Sayings IV, Fourth Fifty, Ch IV, § 202). He lay down in the “lion’s posture” also when the time had come for his parinibbåna, the end of the cycle of birth and death. We read in the “Mahå-Parinibbåna Sutta” (Dialogues of the Buddha II, no. 16) that simultaneously with his parinibbåna the Brahmå Sahampati said: “All must depart-- all beings that have life Must shed their compound forms. Yea, even one, A Master such as he, a peerless being, Has passed away.” We read that Sakka, King of the Devas said: “All transient are the elements of life; Into existence having come, they pass away, Good is the peace when they forever cease.” It was already dark when we went around the large Stupa, erected near the temple. While going around we remembered the Buddha’s last words not to be heedless but to be mindful; mindful of what appears at the present moment. During our pilgrimage we followed the same procedure at all the “holy places” we visited. We paid respect with candles, incense and chanting and we considered the Dhamma. Whenever there was an opportunity we would have a conversation on satipatthåna. When we entered the bus again we would continue our Dhamma conversation. We also visited some other places where the Buddha used to stay, such as Råjagaha, where we climbed the Vulture’s Peak and saw excavations at the sites where once were the dwelling places of the Buddha and his disciples. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125779 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2012 11:47 pm Subject: "More kusala means less murders" jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125664) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: Yes, I understand what you are saying now and how it may be relevant. However, I think that as enough kusala develops to warrant any interest in development of the path, the likelihood of committing murder probably falls close to zero. Have you met any Dhamma students lately who are in jail for murder? I'm not sure if there are any, but I doubt it. So while the explicit development of the path may take a while to get around to ending defilements, the kusala involved in any degree of the path is the opposite sort of accumulations from those that would lead to murder. Would you disagree with this? > =============== J: Regarding "as enough kusala develops to warrant any interest in development of the path, the likelihood of committing murder probably falls close to zero", possibly so, but my interest is in the principles of the teachings set out in the texts and not in suppositions that are not part of those principles and that cannot be confirmed by reference to those principles. There is a danger, in my view, in using such suppositions as a basis for one's views and/or the development of the path. Better to keep to matters that are mentioned in the Pali Canon. In any event, there is a sutta in which a person who still drinks alcohol attains enlightenment, so that would tend to show there was no necessary correlation between level of sila and level of development of understanding. > =============== > RE: I'm not saying it's impossible or that there is no intense akusala arising for someone interested in Dhamma, just that the accumulations are going to be generally quite different. > =============== J: Regarding "for someone interested in Dhamma, the accumulations are going to be generally quite different", I think you mean the *behaviour* is likely to be different. To my understanding, *accumulated tendencies* that existed before the person became interested in the teachings do not change. And while there may well be a change in behaviour for many/most, it is not a principle of the teachings that this must be so, as far as I'm aware. > =============== > RE: I mean, I consider myself just a tiny baby on the path, but it would take an awfully horrifying situation to get me anywhere close to seriously harming someone. I might react violently in self-defense if someone were trying to kill me, but I'm aware enough, even as a tiny baby, not to want to do anything really terrible, even when I [very occasionally, ha ha] get angry. > =============== J: Regarding, "it would take an awfully horrifying situation to get me anywhere close to seriously harming someone", we really have no idea what (horrifying or worse) situations vipaka has in store for us in this life, and it's quite possible that something will happen that arouses strong akusala emotions (e.g., grief, regret, revenge, jealousy) that we didn't know we had. The thing is that all the gross accumulated tendencies with which we were born remain accumulated, even though they may have been relatively latent since we became interested in the teachings. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125780 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 12:12 am Subject: Breach of precepts as a bar to path development jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125674) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: There is no required minimum level of sila in order for an understanding of dhammas to begin to develop. Everyone starts from where they are. > > > > So for example, if a person who earns his living by slaughtering chickens hears the teachings on the development of the path for the first time in his present life and, by virtue of understanding accumulated in previous lives, understands what he has heard, his current occupation would be no obstacle to the arising of awareness of dhammas. > > RE: I don't disagree that such a moment could arise, and if it did, would not be stopped by his occupation. But if the man had that moment of understanding would he then continue to slaughter chickens? And if he did so, would he continue to develop kusala? It seems to me that a butcher who entered the path would either stop killing chickens or have an ongoing conflict. > =============== J: Regarding, "a butcher who entered the path would either stop killing chickens or have an ongoing conflict", I don't know of any principle of the teachings that supports this notion (I am assuming the person is not a stream-enterer). Nor do I see there necessarily being any conflict. Do you mean perhaps a moral dilemma? I think that would depend very much on the nature/personality and the understanding of the person in question. > =============== > RE: I don't think the Buddha ever proposed that the blind monk who stepped on the caterpillars would have been fine if he had stepped on the caterpillars purposely. And if someone keeps killing chickens intentionally after hearing the teachings, that would not be kusala, would it? Don't the teachings say to abstain from killing? > =============== J: Regarding "Don't the teachings say to abstain from killing?", the teachings point out the disadvantage of such conduct, but do not prohibit it as such. In particular, there is no statement in the teachings to the effect that the development of understanding of dhammas cannot take place if one is acting in breach of one of the 5 precepts. > =============== > RE: On the other hand we all have various akusala arising all the time and all do actions we are not especially proud of. I agree with you that does not stop anyone from being on the path, although I think it may prevent progress past a certain point until such habits are dropped. Do you disagree? Can one go on killing chickens past the 1st, 2nd, 3rd stage of insight? Can the killing go on forever until one reaches the level where killing is impossible? > =============== J: As from the 1st stage of insight there is no longer the possibility of intentionally taking life. All the latent tendencies that would support such an act have been fully and finally eradicated. Before that, the intentional taking of life is theoretically possible. However, I don't think there's any purpose in speculating how likely that would be. Regarding the idea that bad habits "may prevent progress past a certain point until such habits are dropped", I know of no such proposition in the texts. In those suttas where the factors for the development of understanding are set out, there is no mention of having to drop/overcome bad habits or even of improving one's sila. So I think the supposition you are making is not a safe one to make. As I understand the teachings, when the path is being developed, sila is being developed also. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125781 From: "colette_aube" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 5:07 am Subject: Re: Breach of precepts as a bar to path development colette_aube Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon and Robert E, If I may, it seems to me that Robert E is viewing EVERYTHING as existing on HIS SCALE OF VALUE, HIS HIERARCHICAL VALUE STRUCTURE/SCALE. With that as the case, then, I don't see how he could possibly understand what it means to be a "STREAM ENTERER" Firstly, as an example of the concept I'm speaking of, there is very little correspondence to THE BUDDHA'S CONSCIOUSNESS, BACK THEN, and OUR CONSCIOUSNESS TODAY. While there are and can be similarities between the two states of consciousness we must acknowledge that TIME is an issue that has to be transcended before running off declaring an exact correspondence between the two. Secondly, for lack of better terms, "TIME IN POSITION" which is to say an "Abiding In". This "Abiding In" can be achieved through MEDITATIONAL PRACTICES, however, for a "butcher" (your example), in today's lifestyle, to find anywhere near enough time to "abide in" the nama conditions of MEDITATION required to achieve an "abiding in" condition, is near lunacy if not insanity. So, to just examine the two things that impede a person's progress on the path we can easily go back to the beginning where I showed that it is a problem with the devotion to, the dependence on, HIERARCHY and the HIERARCHICAL SCALE as being the problem that obscures Robert's ability to perceive another person's ability to enter the stream. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Rob E > > (125674) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon. > > ... > > > J: There is no required minimum level of sila in order for an understanding of dhammas to begin to develop. Everyone starts from where they are. > > > > > > So for example, if a person who earns his living by slaughtering chickens hears the teachings on the development of the path for the first time in his present life and, by virtue of understanding accumulated in previous lives, understands what he has heard, his current occupation would be no obstacle to the arising of awareness of dhammas. > > > > RE: I don't disagree that such a moment could arise, and if it did, would not be stopped by his occupation. But if the man had that moment of understanding would he then continue to slaughter chickens? And if he did so, would he continue to develop kusala? It seems to me that a butcher who entered the path would either stop killing chickens or have an ongoing conflict. > > =============== <...> Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125782 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 2:44 pm Subject: Satipatthana 3 - Mundane or Supramundane or Mixed ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all Commentary to Right View This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara). Herein, the knowledge of kamma as one's own and knowledge which is in conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are mundane right view; or, in brief, (mundane right view is) all understanding that is accompanied by the taints. Understanding connected with the noble paths and fruits is supramundane right view.[3]The person possessing right view is of three kinds: the worldling (puthujjana), the disciple in higher training (sekha), and the one beyond training (asekha). Herein, the worldling is of two kinds: one outside the Dispensation and one within the Dispensation. Herein, one outside the Dispensation who believes in kamma is one of right view on account of the view of kamma as one's own, but not on account of that which is in conformity with the truths, because he holds to the view of self. One within the Dispensation is of right view on account of both. The disciple in higher training is one of right view on account of fixed right view, the one beyond training on account of (the right view) that is beyond training. Commentary to Minduflness Regarding "the only way" there is the following account of a discussion that took place long ago. The Elder Tipitaka Culla Naga said: "The Way of Mindfulness-arousing (as expounded in our Discourse) is the (mundane) preliminary part (of the Eightfold Way)." His teacher the Elder Culla Summa said: "The Way is a mixed one (a way that is both mundane and supramundane)." The pupil: "Reverend Sir, it is the preliminary part." The teacher: "Friend, it is the mixed Way." As the teacher was insistent, the pupil became silent. They went away without coming to a decision. On the way to the bathing place the teacher considered the matter. He recited the Discourse. When he came to the part where it is said: "O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for seven years," he concluded that after producing the consciousness of the Supramundane Path there was no possibility of continuing in that state of mind for seven years, and that his pupil, Culla Naga, was right. On that very day, which happened to be the eighth of the lunar fortnight, it was the elder Culla Naga's turn to expound the Dhamma. When the exposition was about to begin, the Elder Culla Summa went to the Hall of Preaching and stood behind the pulpit. After the pupil had recited the preliminary stanzas the teacher spoke to the pupil in the hearing of others, saying, "Friend, Culla Naga." The pupil heard the voice of his teacher and replied: "What is it, Reverend Sir?" The teacher said this: "To say, as I did, that the Way is a mixed one is not right. You are right in calling it the preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness-arousing." Thus the Elders of old were not envious and did not go about holding up only what they liked as though it were a bundle of sugar-cane. They took up what was rational; they gave up what was not. Thereupon, the pupil, realising that on a point on which experts of the Dhamma like his learned teacher had floundered, fellows of the holy life in the future were more likely to be unsure, thought: "With the authority of a citation from the Discourse-collection, I will settle this question." Therefore, he brought out and placed before his hearers the following statement from the Patisambhida Magga: "The preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness-arousing is called the only way." And, in order to elaborate just that and to show of which path or way the instruction in our Discourse is the preliminary part, he further quoted the following also from the Patisambhida Magga: "The Excellent Way is the Eightfold way; four are truths; dispassion is the best of things belonging to the wise; besides that Way there is no other for the purifying of vision. Walk along that Way so that you may confound Death, and put an end to suffering." Personal Note - the dicussion between the pupil and the teacher is part of the Only Way definition by the commentary. It will come next Dispeller of Delusion pg 354 For only in the Suttanta Division are the foundation of Mindulness expounded by the Blessed One as mundane and supramundane mixed. But in the Abhidhamma Division and Questionaire, they are supramudane only. KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125783 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 2:51 pm Subject: Satipatthana 4 - The Only Way 1 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all  Commentary to Mindfulness  "The only way" = The one way [Ekayanoti ekamaggo]. There are many words for "way." The word used for "way" here is "ayana" ("going" or road). Therefore, "This is the only way, O bhikkhus [ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo]" means here: "A single way ("going" or road), O bhikkhus, is this way; it is not of the nature of a double way [ekamaggo ayam bhikkhave maggo na dvedhapathabhuto]." Or it is "the only way" because it has to be trodden by oneself only [ekeneva ayitabbo]. That is without a companion. The state of being companionless is twofold: without a comrade, after abandoning contact with the crowd, and in the sense of being withdrawn (or secluded) from craving, through tranquillity of mind. Or it is called "ekayana" because it is the way of the one [ekassa ayana]. "Of the one" = of the best; of all beings the Blessed One is best. Therefore, it is called the Blessed One's Way. Although others too go along that way, it is the Buddha's because he creates it. Accordingly it is said: "He, the Blessed One, is the creator of the uncreated path, O Brahman." It proceeds (or exists) only in this Doctrine-and-discipline and not in any other. Accordingly the Master declared: "Subhadda, only in this Doctrine-and-discipline is the Eightfold Way to be found." And further, "ekayana" means: It goes to the one [ekam ayati] — that is, it (the way) goes solely to Nibbana. Although in the earlier stages this method of meditation proceeds on different lines, in the latter, it goes to just the one Nibbana. And that is why Brahma Sahampati said: Whose mind perceiving life's last dying out Vibrates with love, he knows the only way That led in ancient times, is leading now, And in the future will lead past the flood.[6] As Nibbana is without a second, that is, without craving as accompanying quality, it is called the one. Hence it is said: "Truth is one; it is without a second." Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word "way"? Are there not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration, besides mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness. Knowledge, energy and the like are mentioned in the analytically expository portion [niddese]. In the synopsis [uddese], however, the consideration should be regarded as that of mindfulness alone, by way of the mental disposition of those capable of being trained.  Some [keci], however, construing according to the stanza beginning with the words, "They do not go twice to the further shore [na param digunam yanti]"[7]say, "One goes to Nibbana once, therefore it is ekayana." This explanation is not proper. Because in this instruction the earlier part of the Path is intended to be presented, the preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness proceeding in the four objects of contemplation is meant here, and not the supramundane Way of Mindfulness. And that preliminary part of the Path proceeds (for the aspirant) many times; or it may be said that there is many a going on it, by way of repetition of practice.  In what sense is it a "way"? In the sense of the path going towards Nibbana, and in the sense of the path which is the one that should be (or is fit to be) traversed by those who wish to reach Nibbana. KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125784 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 2:53 pm Subject: Satitpatthana 4 - The Only Way 2 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all Commentary to Mindfulness Since the Blessed one does not at first make people conversant with the usage of the Dispensation and after that teach the Doctrine to them, and as he by various discourses sets forth various meanings, he explained the things which "the only way" effects, with the words "For the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation," and so forth. Or it may be said that the Master explained the things accomplished by "the only way," in this manner, in order to show that every thing which leads to the purification of beings by the "only way" is dependent on the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation; that this overcoming is dependent on the destruction of suffering and grief; and that the destruction of suffering and grief is dependent on the reaching of the right path which is in turn dependent on the attainment of Nibbana. It is a declaration of the method of deliverance, by "the only way." Further, this is an expression of praise of "the only way." Just as the Blessed One by way of eight characteristics expressed praise in the Cha Chakka Sutta, and by way of nine characteristics in the Ariyavamsa Sutta, just in the same way he expressed praise of this "only way," through the seven characteristics contained in the words "For the purification of beings," and so forth. Why did he utter talk of praise of this kind? For the purpose of bringing out the interest of these bhikkhus. The Blessed One thought: "Having heard the utterance of praise, these bhikkhus will believe that his way casts out the four onrushings [cattaro upaddave harati], namely sorrow produced by distress of heart [hadaya santapabhutam sokam], lamentation characterised by confused talk [vaca vipallabhutam paridevam], suffering produced by disagreeable bodily feeling [kayikam asatabhutam dukkham], and grief produced by disagreeable thought [cetasikam asatabhutam domanassam] and that it brings the three extraordinary spiritual attainments of purity, knowledge, and Nibbana [visuddhim ñanam Nibbananti tayo visese avahati] and will be convinced that this instruction should be studied (imam dhammadesanam uggahetabbam], mastered [pariyapunnitabbam], borne in mind [dharetabbam], and memorized [vacetabbam], and that this way should be cultivated [imañca maggam bhavetabbam]." KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125785 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 6:29 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, We visited the Jeta Grove near Såvatthí where the Buddha stayed for twentyfive rainy seasons. Also at that site one can see the excavations where the dwelling places of the Buddha and his disciples were located. Anåthapindika whose house was not far away had offered the Jeta Grove to the Buddha. He visited the Buddha several times a day and also other people who lived in the village nearby came to see the Buddha towards the evening in order to hear him preach the Dhamma. Acharn Sujin said to us that people who walked in this Grove walked with mindfulness. This was a reminder for us not to be forgetful of nåma and rúpa while we walked. The Jeta Grove is full of trees, it is still a real Grove. We were sitting on the grass, under the trees, near the site of the Buddha’s dwelling place. We had a Dhamma conversation while many birds were singing. Nearby was a well with very clear water which must have been there since long ago. We all drank this water from a cup we passed around. Acharn Sujin said that we should have great patience while we develop satipatthåna. Awareness should be developed so that we do not confuse anymore the different realities appearing through the six doors. We should not take them as a “whole”, but their true nature should be realized as they appear one at a time. Through the eyes only visible object or colour can be experienced. We do not see Jeta Grove. Jeta Grove is a concept we are thinking of; it is different from visible object. Visible object should be known as it is: only visible object, a kind of rúpa that is experienced through the eyes. There is no Jeta Grove in the visible object. Through the ears only sound can be experienced. We do not hear the birds of Jeta Grove, that is again a kind of thinking. Sound is only sound, it should be realized as it is. There are no birds in the sound. Visible object, sound, our thinking of Jeta Grove, our memory of Jeta Grove, all these realities are impermanent, they fall away. Satipatthåna should be developed with great patience until there is no Jeta Grove in the visible object and visible object is realized as it is; until there are no birds of Jeta Grove in the sound and sound is realized as it is. All phenomena should be known as they are so that we are no longer deluded about reality. This was the best Dhamma conversation we could possibly have in this place, because the subject was the same as what the Buddha always taught and had taught also here: the eye, seeing and colour, the ear, hearing and sound, all phenomena should be realized as they are: not a person, not “something”, not self. ******* Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125786 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 10:54 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125711) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > Pt. 2. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > RE: Jon, citing Bikkhu Bodhi: > =============== J: Thanks for the comments setting out your hypothesis regarding actions and what you call the "physical expression of cetana". However, you have not commented on the main point of the Bhikkhu Bodhi passage, namely, that only wholesome kamma generated by developing the NEP leads to enlightenment, while all other wholesome kamma leads to pleasant results within the round of rebirths. To my understanding, `developing the NEP' is here a reference to awareness/insight, and not to other forms of kusala (dana, sila and samatha bhavana). Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125787 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2012 11:03 pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina > Acharn Sujin said that we should have great patience while we > develop satipatthåna. Awareness should be developed so that we do not > confuse anymore the different realities appearing through the six > doors. We should not take them as a "whole", but their true nature > should be realized as they appear one at a time. Through the eyes > only visible object or colour can be experienced. We do not see Jeta > Grove. Jeta Grove is a concept we are thinking of; it is different > from visible object. Visible object should be known as it is: only > visible object, a kind of rúpa that is experienced through the eyes. > There is no Jeta Grove in the visible object. Through the ears only > sound can be experienced. We do not hear the birds of Jeta Grove, > that is again a kind of thinking. Sound is only sound, it should be > realized as it is. There are no birds in the sound. Visible object, > sound, our thinking of Jeta Grove, our memory of Jeta Grove, all > these realities are impermanent, they fall away. Satipatthåna should > be developed with great patience until there is no Jeta Grove in the > visible object and visible object is realized as it is; until there > are no birds of Jeta Grove in the sound and sound is realized as it > is. All phenomena should be known as they are so that we are no > longer deluded about reality. This was the best Dhamma conversation > we could possibly have in this place, Thank you very much for this stirring post, Nina. I am sitting on the porch at the country house, my earthly paradise, so many stories about so many summers here, but in reality only visible object et al. Also a big story about my health ( shingles, it seems, diagnosis will be confirmed today.) When there is this kind of pain, patience is not strong for me and I turn to strategies. Meditating, gaining a sense of witnessing the pain, not identifying with it, also watching the emotional responses to it, it helps. But it's all about self making machinations for personal comfort... Phil because the subject was the > same as what the Buddha always taught and had taught also here: the > eye, seeing and colour, the ear, hearing and sound, all phenomena > should be realized as they are: not a person, not "something", not self. > > ******* > > Nina. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125788 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 8:43 am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear Nina > > Thank you very much for this stirring post, Nina. I am sitting on the porch at the country house, my earthly paradise, so many stories about so many summers here, but in reality only visible object et al. Also a big story about my health ( shingles, it seems, diagnosis will be confirmed today.) When there is this kind of pain, patience is not strong for me and I turn to strategies. Meditating, gaining a sense of witnessing the pain, not identifying with it, also watching the emotional responses to it, it helps. But it's all about self making machinations for personal comfort... > =============== J: Sorry to hear about the health issues. Shingles is a tough one, according to all those who've had the misfortune. Good luck with the strategies. There's also the Dhamma to listen to or contemplate (but not as a strategy, of course!!). Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125789 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 11:07 am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon > J: Sorry to hear about the health issues. Shingles is a tough one, according to all those who've had the misfortune. Thanks, from what I've read online my pain is relatively mild, more related to the extraordinary band of blistering rash (*my* band, did I create that thing?) than with the neural stuff. - Good luck with the strategies. There's also the Dhamma to listen to or contemplate (but not as a strategy, of course!!) Right, reflection on the Dhamma is helpful, needless to say a lot of reflection on the second dart. But not as a strategy, when reflection on the Dhamma arises, it arises. Posts like the one by Nina that I responded to are treasures for bringing it back. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125790 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 12:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Phil (and Jon) - In a message dated 8/5/2012 9:07:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Jon > J: Sorry to hear about the health issues. Shingles is a tough one, according to all those who've had the misfortune. Thanks, from what I've read online my pain is relatively mild, more related to the extraordinary band of blistering rash (*my* band, did I create that thing?) than with the neural stuff. - Good luck with the strategies. There's also the Dhamma to listen to or contemplate (but not as a strategy, of course!!) Right, reflection on the Dhamma is helpful, needless to say a lot of reflection on the second dart. But not as a strategy, when reflection on the Dhamma arises, it arises. Posts like the one by Nina that I responded to are treasures for bringing it back. Phil ============================== Phil, I'm sorry to hear you may have the shingles, but I'm pleased that your case seems to be a mild one. I've heard that it often can be gotten rid of fairly quickly, though an aunt of my wife's had a difficult time with it. Best of luck with this. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125791 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 2:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard > Phil, I'm sorry to hear you may have the shingles, but I'm pleased > that your case seems to be a mild one. I've heard that it often can be gotten > rid of fairly quickly, though an aunt of my wife's had a difficult time > with it. Best of luck with this. Thanks. I will hang in there. Ok, thanks everyone. Enough about my shingles. I appreciate your concern. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 3:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Op 5-aug-2012, om 15:03 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I am sitting on the porch at the country house, my earthly > paradise, so many stories about so many summers here, but in > reality only visible object et al. Also a big story about my health > ( shingles, it seems, diagnosis will be confirmed today.) When > there is this kind of pain, patience is not strong for me and I > turn to strategies. -------- N: Pain and sickness, it is so daily. But difficult to be always patient. I just heard a recording, Kh Sujin spoke about some one who got sick on an India tour: what happens has to happen. Lodewijk and I discuss this so much these days. He asked me to type out more of such recordings. He keeps me busy, but in a good sense. I will post it later on. He wants more and more Dhamma talks. I hope you will soon feel better, and fortunately it can be cured. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:09 pm Subject: What I heard, sickness. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Khun Jutiman became sick on an India Tour. Kh Sujin said that we need not be troubled or worry about what we should do. -------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125794 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:15 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. > > >Rob K: IMHO the insect exterminator would be making akusala. I would never advise him to stop his job - heaven forbid-in fact please make him the pre-eminent insect exterminator in the country. > > > >Rob E: It seems to me that this continues an unresolved issue about conventional activities. Ken H. is correctly following his very strict understanding that paramatha dhammas and kusala and akusala have *nothing* to do with conventional activities and events as we experience them in everyday life. *Nothing,* because there is no relation between what are pure concepts, such as killing an insect, performing an abortion, or finding the mind connected to the brain, and actual paramatha dhammas, which are merely kusala or akusala dhammas that arise in a single individual moment. > .... > S: I think the point is that there are only paramattha dhammas. Anything else is a 'story'. > .... > > >R: I agree with what I think is Rob K.'s view. It does not make sense to me to say you can be a Buddhist simply by understanding dhammas, without any regard to whether you are killing beings or not, drinking, engaging in wrong livelihood, wrong speech and action, etc. in everyday life. > ... > S: "Simply by understanding dhammas...." What else is there to understand? Well the question is whether understanding is everything. It is the leader, and it is the ultimate, but is it the entire path? Is it okay to see "killing a chicken" as merely dhammas and simply "understand" them and keep killing the chicken? That's the question I think that is raised regarding conventional actions - do they count, or not? It is not only a question of whether there is akusala intention. I think we can agree that without akusala intention/volition the action would not "count." The question is, if akusala cetana leads to 'completed physical kamma patha,' eg, killing a chicken, is the action of killing a chicken the expression of the akusala cetana, and in addition, is that not worse than merely having the cetana and not acting on it? I think it is clear in various scriptures that it is worse if the action is carried out than if it is just intended, and if so, that means that conventional actions express dhammas and have a role in the path, as I think the Buddha often expressed with various descriptions, admonitions and directives. Even if the above is the case, understanding the nature of the dhammas involved is still the essential ingredient in development, but the life of action that is being lived and that is expressing kusala or akusala cetana is also important. > Whatever the activity, there are only dhammas. Understanding these dhammas more and more precisely when they arise, when they appear is the only way that akusala of all kinds can ever be eradicated. Understanding is the forerunner, the leader, just like the dawn. > ... > > Maybe this issue could be raised with K. Sujin? > .... > S: Sure. Could you write a two or three line qu of exactly what you'd like to ask her. I'll be glad to raise it. I think I would ask: Does it matter what we do? Can a person be 'on the path' while having a livelihood as someone who kills animals for a living? Can we kill someone and still be 'on the path?' Can we experience development of kusala while engaging in clearly harmful and forbidden conventional activities, such as unlawful sexual activity, drinking, gambling, gossiping, sowing of dissension, speaking badly of the Buddha, killing people, beating people up? Does it matter, or is understanding dhammas the *only* ingredient of the path? In terms of the path and bhavana, does it matter if a monk breaks precepts? All of the above are conventional activities, but can also be seen as the expression of kusala or akusala cetana. What is the right way to look at such activities and the kamma patha that they represent? If that is too long, I will try to cut it down... Thanks much, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125795 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:20 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 1. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Chapter 7. Clinging to Sati. The Buddha who had fulfilled all the perfections in order to be able to teach us Dhamma, has passed finally away. Today there are still his teachings and the Order of monks. The Tipitaka (the “Three Baskets” of the Buddhist teachings) were preserved for a long time only by oral tradition. They were rehearsed for the first time during the First Council, convened three months after the Buddha’s parinibbåna. Under the presidency of Mahå-Kassapa fivehundred arahats recited together the teachings. Among them was Ånanda who had attained arahatship on the eve of the Council. The Second Council was convened one century later at Vesålí. The Third Council was held during the reign of King Asoka, in the third century B.C. at Påtaliputta. King Asoka was very active at the propagation of Buddhism. He instituted state pilgrimages to the Buddhist holy places instead of pleasure trips which were formerly undertaken by kings. He erected at the holy places monuments and memorial columns and on some of these he had rules of morality inscribed. After the Third Council King Asoka sent missionaries to different countries in order to propagate the Buddhist teachings. The arahat Mahinda, who is said to be his son, was sent to Sri Lanka where he founded the “Great Monastery”. Here the Tipitaka was committed to writing for the first time and the commentaries were translated into Sinhalese. Before leaving for Sri Lanka in order to spread the teachings, Mahinda came to the monastery on the hill of Sanchi. This monastery had formerly been built for him. He came in order to take leave of his mother who is said to have stayed there as a bhikkhuní. We visited the stupas of Sanchi which are situated on the hill. One can see the stupa where relics of the Buddha were kept and the stupa containing the relics of Sariputta and Moggallana. At the south Gateway of the main Stupa there is a remnant of a pillar erected by King Asoka. We walked downhill and saw on the way excavations of the sites of the bhikkhunís’ quarters, where Mahinda’s mother is said to have stayed. Further down the hill we passed another monument marking the place where Mahinda’s teacher, who was also an arahat, used to stay. Many people, even after the Buddha had passed away, attained arahatship and, thus, made an end to the cycle of birth and death. -------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125796 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:21 pm Subject: Re: 2007 audio - 20. Seclusion now! epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > I hope this is not taken the wrong way, but this is very 'zen.' In a good way... The idea that the teaching is realized in the moment and that there is only the reality of this moment is an approach that I think is shared by K. Sujin with the zen masters. I'm sure everything else is very different, but I find it pretty neat, from opposite ends of the spectrum. > ... > S: Yes, I know what you mean. A good friend refers to the "Manjushri sword" when K.Sujin responds - same idea. Back to this moment, cutting through the stories. Yes, and I enjoy that about the stories of K. Sujin's answers. They can be very refreshing. > > In one zen story, the monk is chastised for saying that a 'bird has flown away' because he is thinking about the past event and the absence of the bird rather than the reality of the moment. > > > > The moment of thinking can also be known as such, but I don't think the zen master would disagree with that either. > ... > S: Right. We all agree on the present moment, but we have to be more and more precise about what the present moment, the present dhamma is. So, not enough to say "be aware now", must be 'be aware of seeing, visible object, hardness......whatever appears now". The clear distinction between namas and rupas can only be known in this way - by knowing particular dhammas that appear. Okay, that is a good point. > > Anyway, I will now go hide... > ... > S: Pls don't!! :-) Thanks, Sarah - I appear to still be here... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125797 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:32 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. [and short note to Ken O.] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: I agree that when there is awareness/insight (i.e., the development of the path), sila will also be developed. The person who understands the path also appreciates the value of sila, in fact moreso that does the person who is not developing the path. Okay, that makes sense. > That is not the same as saying, however, that "bad behaviour" necessarily ceases in the person who is developing the path. There is no principle of the teachings that behaviour has to be of a certain level in order for the development of the path to proceed. I would certainly understand that behavior would not necessarily be cleaned up all at once just by a certain degree of understanding, but it would have a positive influence, as I think you suggest above. > > =============== > > RE: Well I think talking about a single moment of awareness is fine for purposes of gradual accumulation, but obviously one would have to be at a point where awareness was arising regularly to change behavior, and I am sure at that point it would, whether that is its purpose or not. There are no reports of Buddha's advanced disciples running around stealing or beating people, or cursing at each other. That would not express their level of understanding and the suttas have mentioned such things on any number of occasions - the peace and equanimity that takes place, and the courtesy and awareness of others and how to behave around them among his followers. > > =============== > > J: Regarding, "There are no reports of Buddha's advanced disciples running around stealing or beating people, or cursing at each other", that may well be so, but the question we're discussing is whether it is part of the teaching of the Buddha that there must be the development of sila to a certain (as yet unspecified) degree if the development of insight is to proceed. I don't believe there is such a principle expounded by the Buddha. I might agree that the path can start at any time, and kusala can arise at any time. Not sure though if there can be great development without some development of sila - even if it's not a specific rule or a given degree. I think the Buddha seems to take it as a given that his more advanced followers will behave themselves accordingly, and they generally seem to do so, except on occasions when particular conflicts or problems arise. It's also true that certain really big obstacles to development can arise among advanced disciples, as happened with the pride of the bhikkus in the Mulapariyaya sutta, which I have been reading lately, [thanks very much to Ken O. for the book!!!] And then the Buddha seems to confront them directly, seeing how such obstacles are standing in the way. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125798 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:35 pm Subject: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > Yes Right speech is not just restraining of wrong speech, it is at the moment of speaking where speech is consider right or wrong. Restraining at the moment is the arising of kusala mental factor and not right speech. As you say, this is the same for all body and verbal acts. the moment where it is done, it is where it is consider right or wrong, if not it is just consider the arising of kusala or akusala mental factors Thanks for your view on this. It seems that the akusala mental factors will still create akusala kamma, but that the kamma is worse if the akusala is completed through action. Does that accord with what you are saying? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125799 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > >I don't think the Buddha ever proposed that the blind monk who stepped on the caterpillars would have been fine if he had stepped on the caterpillars purposely. And if someone keeps killing chickens intentionally after hearing the teachings, that would not be kusala, would it? Don't the teachings say to abstain from killing? > > K: the act of killing, there must be an intention to kill. If one accidentally steps on a snail or caterpillars, it is not killing because there is no intention to kill. Abstain is the result at the moment when one intents to kill, one stop that act. Obviously if one is purposely killing chickens for a living, there is intention to kill, although the person may not think of it that way. They may see the chickens as food and not see them as beings. I wonder if that creates a complication in the kamma, or if any intentional killing is equally bad? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125800 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 4:40 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: I have not been saying that akusala kamma patha is simply and purely a mental state. Most akusala kamma patha does manifest as (conventional) action through body or speech. > > But in terms of the dhammas spoken of by the Buddhda, conventional acts are only namas and rupas, regardless of whether the act is one that forms part of kamma patha or is an act such as brushing one's teeth or reading/writing a message on the list. > > However, of all the dhammas involved in an act of kamma patha, it is the mental factor of intention that, as kamma condition, conditions the vipaka/result, namely, the future experience of a pleasant or unpleasant object. > > Only cetana can condition vipaka; rupas cannot. This is confusing to me, since I think it has been said that the kamma is worse if the act is completed. For instance, murdering someone is far worse than simply thinking of murdering someone, even if there is intention at the moment of thinking. And if one intends to kill and the act is somehow not completed, that is still better than completing the murder. Is this because the cetana is stronger if the act is completed, or does the physicalization of the act have some bearing on the kamma? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125801 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 5:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil & all, Yes, I also love the reminders which Nina shared, especially: >> Acharn Sujin said that we should have great patience while we >> develop satipatthåna. ....Satipatthåna should >> be developed with great patience until there is no Jeta Grove in the >> visible object and visible object is realized as it is; until there >> are no birds of Jeta Grove in the sound and sound is realized as it >> is. ..... > >P: Thank you very much for this stirring post, Nina. I am sitting on the porch at the country house, my earthly paradise, so many stories about so many summers here, but in reality only visible object et al. .... S: Yes, wonderful to appreciate this..... what seems like "earthly paradise" is really only visible object and a lot of thinking... ... >Also a big story about my health ( shingles, it seems, diagnosis will be confirmed today.) When there is this kind of pain, patience is not strong for me and I turn to strategies. Meditating, gaining a sense of witnessing the pain, not identifying with it, also watching the emotional responses to it, it helps. But it's all about self making machinations for personal comfort... ... S: The neural pain I had for weeks on end during my shingles was unbelievable - I understood why it is sometimes called "suicide disease" here. The "strategies" I used for coping like putting large plastic bowls and forks (instead of a bra) under Jon's extra large shirt to prevent any material touching my skin for weeks on end and sleeping over the oven grill with more bowls to prevent contact with sheets were pretty hilarious! So, "strategies" are just part of daily life - strategies for dealing with pain, strategies for running faster, strategies for getting to sleep.... none of it matters, there are still just 6 doorways and there can be awareness anytime at all, no matter whether we imagine we're in the Jeta Grove or at your earthly paradise or struggling through sickness. Just the world of seeing or bodily consciousness and then a lot of thinking, on and on. Phil, I want to ask your help and give you time for it. It's regarding K.Sujin's trip to Poland as arranged by Lukas. Can you list any questions that you think it would be helpful to make sure are covered as I know you've taken a big interest in this. Jon and I will of course be recording, so hope to share in due course. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125802 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E, Good to write about questions for Kh Sujin, and meanwhile we also can ponder over them. Op 6-aug-2012, om 8:15 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > killing people, beating people up? Does it matter, or is > understanding dhammas the *only* ingredient of the path? In terms > of the path and bhavana, does it matter if a monk breaks precepts? > All of the above are conventional activities, but can also be seen > as the expression of kusala or akusala cetana. What is the right > way to look at such activities and the kamma patha that they > represent? ------- N: We can only understand the citta arising now. In this way we can solve dilemmas. We shall have more understanding of the danger and ugliness of akusala and the benefit of kusala, not merely by thinking stories about them. As to the monk: when transgressions are grave he is no longer considered as a monk, and this is all explained in the Vinaya, about different degrees of transgressions. For all of us: we should remember that the perfections, all kusala through body, speech and mind, are indispensable. They have to be developed together with satipatthaana in order to reach the goal. We are like sick people and on our way to the goal we need the perfections as medicine to make us capable to proceed on our journey to freedom. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125803 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 6:12 pm Subject: Re: What I heard: Equanimity. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I heard this morning from a Thai recording: > > The Brahma vihaara of upekkhaa. This is tatramajjhattataa cetasika. > As a Brahma vihaara it has a being as object. When someone is beyond > help we can consider that everyone is heir to kamma, that he receives > the result of his kamma. That will help one to have less aversion. Kh > Sujin said that we should consider more kamma and result. Where does > the body come from? It is kamma that produces eyesense, earsense and > the other senses. Seeing and hearing arise and these are results of > kamma. Bodily wellbeing and bodily misery are results of kamma. If we > really understand this we shall not be disturbed by the results of > kamma. ... S: It's so true. Even wise reflection on how the experiences through the senses now are just the results of kamma helps a lot. We can accept more easily that pleasant and unpleasant bodily experiences, for example, cannot be any other way - all conditioned by past kamma. This leads to less disturbance when there is physical suffering - more acceptance and equanimity. I was listening to a discussion about the two kinds of upadana khandha. We all know that the clinging to dhammas now is upadana and that such khandhas which are clung to are upadana khandha - "sankhittena pa~ncupaadaanakhandhaa dukkhaa" in brief, dukkha is the 5 kinds of upadana khandha. The second kind of upadana khandha refers rupas conditioned by past upadana, kammaja rupas, such as the eye-sense, ear-sense and other senses you refer to. While attachment has not been eradicated, there are bound to be the results of kamma, the results of past upadana on and on. Further clinging just perpetuates the cycle. Time for understanding and detachment to develop - the only relief from the cycle of clinging and its results. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (24) #125804 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 6:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken H & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > >> KH: I was suggesting that the monk might have been an ariyan, and the non-arising of akusala kamma patha was due to the destruction (complete or partial) of defilements. > >> > > > S: Regardless of whether there was any understanding on the part of the monk, > -------- > > KH: Sorry for being pedantic, Sarah, but aren't you straying into dangerous territory there? Isn't the Dhamma always about understanding? .... S: Yes, it's all about dhammas - all kinds of dhammas - for anyone to understand according to their accumulations and ability to understand. Here the Buddha is pointing to the intention to harm as determining whether there was any killing, any akusala kamma involved or not. He was pointing out how we cannot judge by appearances, but only by knowing our own intentions at such times. In the beginning there was no need for the Vinaya, no need for rules for monks, because those who joined the Sangha were already enlightened and already kept perfect sila. However, as the order of monks grew, many had little or no understanding of dhammas and so each time problems and transgressions arose or there was criticism from lay-people, rules had to be laid down. Not all monks became enlightened even though the Buddha always stressed that there are only namas and rupas, no monks, no beings throughout the Teachings. .... > > --------------- > > S: regardless of whether he was an ariyan or not, the Buddha stressed that if there were no intention to kill or harm, there is no blame in that regard. > ---------------- > > KH: We must be talking at cross purposes. For whom was there no blame? As we all agree, there was no one there - just a concept. Would the Buddha ever have bothered to point out blame, or no blame, for a mere concept? .... S: By blame, he meant (in that context) that there were dosa rooted cittas, aksuala kamma patha. By no blame, in this context, he meant that these kinds of cittas were absent. The Buddha was always pointing to particular dhammas, no matter whether they are referred to as "the blind monk's intentions" or anything else. Just terms for convenience, misunderstood by the foolish, but understood by the wise. The entire Vinaya can be read as being about people existing or about different dhammas. ... > > And getting back to the "regardless of whether there was understanding" point, if there is no understanding there is no way out, and samsara is perpetuated by kusala and akusala alike. Is kusala kamma blameless in those circumstances? .... S: In this context it just means there is no intention to harm, no akusala kamma patha in those circumstances. It doesn't mean there wasn't ignorance, attachment or kusala cittas or leading on in samsara. ... > > If the monk was not an ariyan but a just an uninstructed worldling, the non-arising of akusala kamma patha would have been conditioned by something other than the 8fold path. In that case, this sutta – in order to be an exposition of the 8fold path - could only have been about Patimokkha rule making. ... S: Again, I understand the Buddha to just be pointing out different kinds of dhammas. Most of the day, like now, there is the "non-arising of akusala kamma patha" by accumulations. No intention to harm any being now, regardless of whether any understanding is arising. Therefore, there is no breach of the precepts now. Same in the Vinaya - discussions of when there is or is not a breach of the Patimokkha. It doesn't mean whenever there is no breach that this is always conditioned by understanding of the 8fold Path! ... > > --------------------- > > S: When he lay > down the Patimokkha rules it was for all the monks regardless of any > attainments. > --------------------- > > KH: In a no-control context those rules can only be for the purpose of describing the Dhamma, can't they? The rules help ariyan and non-ariyan monks to behave in a manner that is metaphorical (descriptive) of the path factors. ... S: They are rules for the preservation of harmony of the Sangha and for those who can live 'the life of an arahat'. Yes, they are part of the Teachings for sure. ... > > If conditions don't permit adherence to the rules then the monk disrobes without disgrace. So they are rules by name only (not in the ordinary sense). ... S: They are still rules. A monk may not truly understand the purpose of some of the rules, but is still bound to follow them while ordained. Some of the rules were laid down simply because of lay criticism - such as when monks went into the village at an unseasonable time and so on - more about respect for lay people and preservation of the Sangha in such cases. ... > > --------------------------------- > > S: I agree with you that all such rules were taught together with > satipatthana. > --------------------------------- > > KH It's hard to have an argument with all this agreement going on, but we are managing quite well. :-) .... S: I'll try to keep quiet about any agreements in future in this discussion:-)) ... > KH: My new approach to sutta discussions is to hop in and have a go. ... S: Good, I'd like to see more of it! Btw, did anyone give a link to the sutta/Vinaya passage we're discussing about the blind monk? ... >Previously I thought I should at least wait until I knew which topic the sutta was addressing. (Or, as in this case, whether the monk in question was an ariyan or not.) A lot of egg-on-face can be avoided that way, but what the heck! As long as I interpret the sutta in a way that is consistent with the Dhamma I can't go far wrong. .... S: Yes and the only reason we mind any "egg-on-face" is only mana after all. If we mind making mistakes, it's not helpful at all - a condition not to hear or discuss Dhamma. Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125805 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2012 9:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 6, no 5. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah Wow, sorry to hear you went through that wuth shingles. Clearly mine is milder so don't worry if you don't hear from me for awhile, it won't be due to that agony - well, who knows. Re questions for A Sujin, a bit unlikely these days, not studyung/listening with the degree of attention that comes up with questions, but again, who knows, a matter of dhammas that arise beyond control. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125806 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 12:18 am Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125800) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: Only cetana can condition vipaka; rupas cannot. > > RE: This is confusing to me, since I think it has been said that the kamma is worse if the act is completed. For instance, murdering someone is far worse than simply thinking of murdering someone, even if there is intention at the moment of thinking. And if one intends to kill and the act is somehow not completed, that is still better than completing the murder. Is this because the cetana is stronger if the act is completed, or does the physicalization of the act have some bearing on the kamma? > =============== J: Regarding "Is this because the cetana is stronger if the act is completed, or does the physicalization of the act have some bearing on the kamma?". As I understand it, cetana--and only cetana--is kamma. If the act is `completed' (i.e., is akusala kamma patha), the kamma is stronger that if not `completed'. Does this mean that the cetana is stronger? That depends on what `stronger' means in this context. Obviously it would not necessarily be stronger in the conventional sense of that term. (The intricacies of the operation of kamma are one of the `unfathomables'.) Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125807 From: Ken O Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kenh1 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E R: Thanks for your view on this. It seems that the akusala mental factors will still create akusala kamma, but that the kamma is worse if the akusala is completed through action. Does that accord with what you are saying? K: Yes. If there is an intention to kill but the act does not falls through, it is not killing. For example, a hunter missed the shot to kill a deer. There is an intention of killing (arising due to ill will) but there is no killing. It is not a killing action. However, there is a mental kamma resulting from ill will. The action to kill arise from a body door while the intention to kill arise from a mental door. The difference is that when there is a killing, the body door is the main door that is the cause of the action, the ill will not considered the cause of the kamma. The ill will becomes the main factor through the mind door if the killing does not take effect like the example above where a hunter missed the shot. In harsh speech, if someone with ill will ask another to kill a person, and the person is being killed, the result of the kamma is killing. If there is no result in killing, the result is harsh speech. Though both speech and killing are from the body doors, the result are different. R: Obviously if one is purposely killing chickens for a living, there is intention to kill, although the person may not think of it that way. They may see the chickens as food and not see them as beings. I wonder if that creates a complication in the kamma, or if any intentional killing is equally bad? K: No, there is no complication because the person who kills for chickens for food does not understand the cause and effect of kamma. He is blind from such panna. If he understands kamma, he will not undertake this wrong livelihood and will choose another livelihood. A person who kills a chicken must have intention to kill because the person need the food and his intention was to complete the act of killing in order to obtain it as food. cheers KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125808 From: Ken O Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina N: Bodily wellbeing and bodily misery are results of kamma. K: Bodily misery may not be entirely the result of kamma. Discourse to Girimananda Thera (Girimananda Sutta) iv. "What, Ananda, is contemplation of disadvantage (danger)? Herein, Ananda, a monk having gone to the forest, or to the foot of a tree, or to a lonely place, contemplates thus: 'Many are the sufferings, many are the disadvantages (dangers) of this body since diverse diseases are engendered in this body, such as the following: Eye-disease, ear-disease, nose-disease, tongue-disease, body-disease, headache, mumps, mouth-disease, tooth-ache, cough, asthma, catarrh, heart-burn, fever, stomach ailment, fainting, dysentry, swelling, gripes, leprosy, boils, scrofula, consumption, epilepsy, ringworm, itch, eruption, tetter, pustule, plethora, diabetes, piles, cancer, fistula, and diseases originating from bile, from phlegm, from wind, from conflict of the humors, from changes of weather, from adverse condition (faulty deportment), from devices (practiced by others), from kamma-vipaka (results of kamma); and cold, heat, hunger, thirst, excrement, and urine.' Thus he dwells contemplating disadvantage (danger) in this body. This Ananda, is called contemplation of disadvantage (danger). cheers KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (24) #125809 From: Ken O Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 2:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E >This is confusing to me, since I think it has been said that the kamma is worse if the act is completed. For instance, murdering someone is far worse than simply thinking of murdering someone, even if there is intention at the moment of thinking. And if one intends to kill and the act is somehow not completed, that is still better than completing the murder. Is this because the cetana is stronger if the act is completed, or does the physicalization of the act have some bearing on the kamma? K: There are different results from different cetana. Thinking of murdering someone is a cetana through the mind door, this cetana is ill will and will bear kamma result due to the thinking. The completed act of a killing is a cetana through body door that did the killing and will bear kamma result due to the act. The severity of the result of cetana is explained in this text from Commentary to The Ten Training Precepts, under the book Illustrator II <<20. By blamability, in the case of breathing things begining with animals that are devoid of special qualities, killing of breathing things is [relatively] less blamable in the case of small one and more blamable in the cause with a large physical frame. Why? Because of the greater magnitude of the means [needed]; and when the means are equal, [it depends] on the greater magnatude of the object, [namely, the breathing being]. But in the case of human beings etc, endowed with special qualities, killing breathing things is [relatively] less blamable in the case of one with small special qualities, and when there is equality of special qualities and of the physical frame, then the lesser blamableness should be understand to reside in the [relatively] mildness of defilements and of the active process adopted, and the greater the blamableness in their greater violence. So too with the rest. But unlike killing breathing things etc [whose blamability varies], the opportunity for neligence due to liqour and besotting drink is always greatly blamable. Why? Because it obstructs the Noble Ones' True Idea by induing even madness in a human being. This is how the explanation should be known by blamability.>> And not all killing bear the same result, according to my view, some could be lessen due to one's development. For example, the king who will his father who is a sotapanna. The king born in hell due to killing his parent but only suffer in 60,000 years in the hot boiling pot. Others who has not the king development, may have suffer more in hell if making the same act of killing their parents who is sotapanna. The king eventually will be a silent buddha as predicted by Buddha. If the king did not kill his parent, he would have been enlighted when Buddha speaks to him on the dhamma. cheers KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125810 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 4:27 am Subject: Ven. Dhammadharo's sermon. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E and Lukas, and all, Rob, I was thinking of your questions on siila when I came across this sermon of the late Bhante Dhammadharo. Lukas will also like this very much. Taken from my "Sri Lanka Revisited". <“When one comes to learn more about realities of this moment, one does not discover something new and different, but there comes to be some understanding of what one has been familiar with: of what one has always taken for “self”, for people, places and things. The development of understanding must be very gradual and very natural, just at this moment. We cannot force right understanding to arise and perform its function. When the conditions are there, there can be a moment of right understanding. But there is no signal, no warning, nothing to tell you , “Now right understanding is going to arise and know something about the present moment.” Still, it arises and something is learnt about the reality at this moment. Right understanding brings detachment and this can lead, one day, to complete and final eradication of all this ignorance which causes us to see the present moment other than it is. It causes us to see things as attractive, lasting, worth while, important. All these ways of seeing the present moment are false, treacherous, dangerous and useless. There is not enough understanding of the true nature of the present moment; in the beginning understanding is very weak. There can just be some moments of understanding from time to time. In between such moments anything can happen. Don’t fool yourself that, because you heard Dhamma and you are in good company, defilements, perhaps quite strong, can’t arise and surprise you, that you are beyond that. Anything can happen according to conditions, according to your accumulations, and it is a test of one’s understanding whether there can be some mindfulness even of those as it were surprising moments. When defilements arise there are conditions for them. It is of no use being disappointed or surprised about them. There is only one way to cope with them: have more understanding of whatever has arisen. There should not be forgetfulness of lobha. It is with us nearly all the time in some form or other. It is like an enemy with the appearance of a friend, very hard to detect. It is like a friend who speaks nicely, waits upon us, smiles at the right time. Who would know that that very pleasant, confortable and secure feeling we have is really an enemy, the cause of all suffering, the cause of the arising of realities from moment to moment, one after the other. We may even cling to kusala. Although it brings pleasant results, it is still impermanent, it is still dukkha. It is anattå, nothing abiding, nothing lasting, nothing substantial. Remind yourself again and again of what the goal is. Don’t be negligent. When it is time for dåna, give! Even when it is not time for dåna, perhaps it can be made into time for dåna. Don’t be negligent as to síla. If one neglects síla, who knows what could happen. All sorts of bad deeds of the past might have an opportunity to give bad results, they might cause one to be in a situation where one cannot hear Dhamma anymore. Don’t be negligent as to calm, the moments one is free from lobha, dosa and moha. We should have mettå towards other people, instead of seeing them as objects of competition, objects to be jealous of, objects to run down. Above all, most important, don’t be negligent to study the present reality. Don’t forget to be aware of rúpa, of the different types of rúpa that arise and appear through the senses. Be aware of visible object that appears from morning to night, arising and passing away unnoticed. The present reality should be studied in order to get rid of ignorance which caused us to be born and which will cause us to go on being born again and again if there is no development of right understanding. May you all be well and happy with right understanding!”> ----------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125811 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 11:48 am Subject: Teaching control as a strategy in no-control world truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all, Lets assume that in absolute truth there is no control. There seems to be two ways to teach: 1)One should strive to "do good and avoid evil". 2)No control. One can't "do good and avoid evil". Isn't it the case that 1st teaching can set up more wholesome determination, and that be a necessary cause for doing good and avoiding evil (due to no control of course)? Wouldn't 2nd teaching set up a fatalistic worldview that may be one of the causes for future mis-deads? What do you think? With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125812 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 1:18 pm Subject: Re: Teaching control as a strategy in no-control world kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear all, > > Lets assume that in absolute truth there is no control. > > There seems to be two ways to teach: > > 1)One should strive to "do good and avoid evil". > 2)No control. One can't "do good and avoid evil". > > Isn't it the case that 1st teaching can set up more wholesome determination, and that be a necessary cause for doing good and avoiding evil (due to no control of course)? > > Wouldn't 2nd teaching set up a fatalistic worldview that may be one of the causes for future mis-deads? > > What do you think? > > Hi Alex, I think you are purposely misunderstanding. But I won't go into why I think you are purposely misunderstanding. Instead I will try to answer your question. It is true that in ultimate reality there is no one who can strive. However, it is not true that in ultimate reality there *is* someone who cannot strive. There is no more anyone who "can't do good and avoid evil" than there is anyone who can. The two ways that seem to you to have been suggested have [as far as I know] never been suggested at DSG. Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125813 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 1:21 pm Subject: Re: "More kusala means less murders" epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > RE: Yes, I understand what you are saying now and how it may be relevant. However, I think that as enough kusala develops to warrant any interest in development of the path, the likelihood of committing murder probably falls close to zero. ... > > =============== > > J: Regarding "as enough kusala develops to warrant any interest in development of the path, the likelihood of committing murder probably falls close to zero", possibly so, but my interest is in the principles of the teachings set out in the texts and not in suppositions that are not part of those principles and that cannot be confirmed by reference to those principles. > > There is a danger, in my view, in using such suppositions as a basis for one's views and/or the development of the path. Better to keep to matters that are mentioned in the Pali Canon. Well clearly the Buddha mentions many many conventional actions, rules, dictates, etc., that are not distinguished as innocuous advice that is unrelated to the path. Why would the Buddha talk about such things and make up so many rules for monks, etc., if they were not relevant to the path? This sort of mystifies me, as it seems to filter out those things that do not fit into a pure 'understanding dhamma' philosophy but are never-the-less given great emphasis over many many instances by the Buddha. Does the Buddha spend uncountable hours teaching about things that have nothing to do with the path? This is what bothers me. The Buddha did not speak in the same absolutely pure terms as the Abhidhamma, and one has to use supposition to filter out all those other teachings. What makes most sense to me - not of my own philosophy but of all the different things that the Buddha teaches about, and that are taken up as well in the Visudhimagga and other scriptures - is that all of those things have importance to development of the path. Even though understanding is the ultimate goal, and the most important vehicle, it is not the only element of the path. > In any event, there is a sutta in which a person who still drinks alcohol attains enlightenment, so that would tend to show there was no necessary correlation between level of sila and level of development of understanding. Well it would show that there is not an absolute correlation, but not that there is no correlation at all. There are always variations and exceptions, but if you were to take a survey, there would be very few drunk monks who attained enlightenment while still in the habit. Maybe just the one. > > =============== ...while there may well be a change in behaviour for many/most, it is not a principle of the teachings that this must be so, as far as I'm aware. Some things can be deduced from the preponderance of the teachings and how almost everyone behaves. Just as you say that the suttas have to be understood within the entire scriptural context, such elements as behavior and action have also to be understood by how they appear in various contexts in the scriptures. There are some spiritual > > =============== > > RE: I mean, I consider myself just a tiny baby on the path, but it would take an awfully horrifying situation to get me anywhere close to seriously harming someone. I might react violently in self-defense if someone were trying to kill me, but I'm aware enough, even as a tiny baby, not to want to do anything really terrible, even when I [very occasionally, ha ha] get angry. > > =============== > > J: Regarding, "it would take an awfully horrifying situation to get me anywhere close to seriously harming someone", we really have no idea what (horrifying or worse) situations vipaka has in store for us in this life, and it's quite possible that something will happen that arouses strong akusala emotions (e.g., grief, regret, revenge, jealousy) that we didn't know we had. Well that's true - I've already experienced a few periods of vipaka that were pretty hellish -- I'm sure we all have. Still, I think one's 'tendencies' do change over time, don't they, as one gets slightly more aware...? > The thing is that all the gross accumulated tendencies with which we were born remain accumulated, even though they may have been relatively latent since we became interested in the teachings. But they do continue to develop and change over time, don't they? Perhaps what you are suggesting is that the time frame is very long... Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125814 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 1:27 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: Thanks for the comments setting out your hypothesis regarding actions and what you call the "physical expression of cetana". > > However, you have not commented on the main point of the Bhikkhu Bodhi passage, namely, that only wholesome kamma generated by developing the NEP leads to enlightenment, while all other wholesome kamma leads to pleasant results within the round of rebirths. > > To my understanding, `developing the NEP' is here a reference to awareness/insight, and not to other forms of kusala (dana, sila and samatha bhavana). Well, that is another point of possible conflict in our views. As I have been trying to put forward with whatever frail support I have around these parts, I see such elements of the NEP as Right Livelihood and Right Action to involve conventional activities in addition to the mental factors that may accompany them. And I see the NEP as developmental over time - a holistic development of interacting factors - rather than an instantaneous arising of mental factors at the very end of the journey. There are any number of suttas - such as the one about the advanced women disciples who were discussing their meditation subjects with each other - where the higher development of elements of the NEP are present in their everyday life and are not confined to the moment of enlightenment. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125815 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 1:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: We can only understand the citta arising now. In this way we can > solve dilemmas. We shall have more understanding of the danger and > ugliness of akusala and the benefit of kusala, not merely by thinking > stories about them. I can see how that would be a more direct understanding. > As to the monk: when transgressions are grave he is no longer > considered as a monk, and this is all explained in the Vinaya, about > different degrees of transgressions. Can it be explained in terms of understanding dhammas, why the transgressions are considered 'bad' for a monk? Is it for conventional reasons, or is it related to the understanding of dhammas for that monk? Do the transgressions interfere with bhavana? > For all of us: we should remember that the perfections, all kusala > through body, speech and mind, are indispensable. This is what I have been trying to suggest in my way, but the way yo put it is very clear. > They have to be > developed together with satipatthaana in order to reach the goal. That is a clear way of saying that without understanding the perfections by themselves will not be adequate. This I think is what Jon has been emphasizing. > We > are like sick people and on our way to the goal we need the > perfections as medicine to make us capable to proceed on our journey > to freedom. That makes sense, and I hope it makes some sense of what I have been saying about 'good' and 'bad' conventional actions. Perhaps... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125816 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 1:39 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: Only cetana can condition vipaka; rupas cannot. > > > > RE: This is confusing to me, since I think it has been said that the kamma is worse if the act is completed. For instance, murdering someone is far worse than simply thinking of murdering someone, even if there is intention at the moment of thinking. And if one intends to kill and the act is somehow not completed, that is still better than completing the murder. Is this because the cetana is stronger if the act is completed, or does the physicalization of the act have some bearing on the kamma? > > =============== > > J: Regarding "Is this because the cetana is stronger if the act is completed, or does the physicalization of the act have some bearing on the kamma?". As I understand it, cetana--and only cetana--is kamma. > If the act is `completed' (i.e., is akusala kamma patha), the kamma is stronger that if not `completed'. Well that is the important point - the physical act creates stronger kamma because it is a more complete kamma patha. Obviously we can all understand the difference between a moment of murderousness arising, and the sustained akusala cetana necessary to actually go murder someone. > Does this mean that the cetana is stronger? That depends on what `stronger' means in this context. Obviously it would not necessarily be stronger in the conventional sense of that term. > > (The intricacies of the operation of kamma are one of the `unfathomables'.) Still, I think it is said clearly that completing a murder or any act is stronger kamma than cetana that is 'dropped' without speech or action taking place. And that makes obvious sense in ordinary terms - hopefully it makes equal sense in dhamma terms. Even if rupas do not cause kamma, they can represent the strength of the cetana that does create the kamma. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125817 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 1:57 pm Subject: Re: What I heard: Equanimity. rjkjp1 Online Now Send IM Send Email Send Email --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Nina > > N: Bodily wellbeing and bodily misery are results of kamma. > > K: Bodily misery may not be entirely the result of kamma. > > Discourse to Girimananda Thera (Girimananda Sutta) > iv. "What, Ananda, is contemplation of disadvantage (danger)? Herein, Ananda, a monk having gone to the forest, or to the foot of a tree, or to a lonely place, contemplates thus: 'Many are the sufferings, many are the disadvantages (dangers) of this body since diverse diseases are engendered in this body, such as the following: Eye-disease, ear-disease, nose-disease, tongue-disease, body-disease, headache, mumps, mouth-disease, tooth-ache, cough, asthma, catarrh, heart-burn, fever, stomach ailment, fainting, dysentry, swelling, gripes, leprosy, boils, scrofula, consumption, epilepsy, ringworm, itch, eruption, tetter, pustule, plethora, diabetes, piles, cancer, fistula, and diseases originating from bile, from phlegm, from wind, from conflict of the humors, from changes of weather, from adverse condition (faulty deportment), from devices (practiced by others), from kamma-vipaka (results of kamma); and cold, heat, hunger, thirst, excrement, and urine.' > Thus he dwells contemplating disadvantage (danger) in this body. This Ananda, is called contemplation of disadvantage (danger). > > cheers > KC > Dear Ken Unpleasant bodily feeling is vipaka, the result of akusala kamma. Of course kamma result is supported by other conditions: The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 notes that there is no single fruit from a single cause: "for here there is no single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. BUT with one representative fruit and cause given thus 'avijja paccaya vinnana' etc. For the blessed one uses one representative cause and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit the inclinations of those being taught. And he does so in some instances because it is a basic factor and in some instances because it is obvious and in some instances because of being not shared"...."he mentioned a single cause in the passage 'diseases due to phlegm'(in the sutta above) because of obviousness,for here it is phlegm that is obvious, not kamma and so on." robert Reply | Messages in this Topic (24) #125818 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 3:03 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > R: Thanks for your view on this. It seems that the akusala mental factors will still create akusala kamma, but that the kamma is worse if the akusala is completed through action. Does that accord with what you are saying? > > K: Yes. If there is an intention to kill but the act does not falls through, it is not killing. That is a good point. > ... The action to kill arise from a body door while the intention to kill arise from a mental door. The difference is that when there is a killing, the body door is the main door that is the cause of the action, the ill will not considered the cause of the kamma. But the kamma from the akusala cetana is still there, yes? ... > R: Obviously if one is purposely killing chickens for a living, there is intention to kill, although the person may not think of it that way. They may see the chickens as food and not see them as beings. I wonder if that creates a complication in the kamma, or if any intentional killing is equally bad? > > K: No, there is no complication because the person who kills for chickens for food does not understand the cause and effect of kamma. He is blind from such panna. If he understands kamma, he will not undertake this wrong livelihood and will choose another livelihood. A person who kills a chicken must have intention to kill because the person need the food and his intention was to complete the act of killing in order to obtain it as food. Thanks for clarifying that. This makes sense. So the kamma is the same even if the person is unaware of doing anything wrong? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125819 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 7:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ken O, Appreciating your interest. It is indeed more complex and I think that Rob K gave a very good quote. Nina. Op 6-aug-2012, om 17:49 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > N: Bodily wellbeing and bodily misery are results of kamma. > > K: Bodily misery may not be entirely the result of kamma. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (24) #125820 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 7:25 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 2. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, After our visit to Sanchi we entered the bus again for a long ride and we had more Dhamma talks on visible object and seeing, sound and hearing and the characteristic of thinking. I was worried about the difference between seeing, which is the experience of visible object, and paying attention to different colours. It is true that seeing does not see a neutral colour; the colour cannot be taken out of visible object. But paying attention to different colours is another moment of reality, it is different from seeing-consciousness which has as its function only the experience of what appears through the eyesense. Acharn Sujin said to me:”While looking out of the window you do not mind how many colours there are, or which colours, but there is visible object. There is something appearing just through the eyes, isn’t there?” We should be aware of just the characteristic that appears, without any worry about it. If we worry about the object of awareness instead of being aware of the characteristic which appears at that moment, realities cannot be known as they are. During our pilgrimage there were extremely long bus journeys, such as the stretches from Balrampur to Delhi, from Delhi to Sanchi and from Sanchi to Aurangabad from where we visited the caves of Ajanta. In Ajanta one can see Buddhist vihåras, dwelling places, dating from 200 B.C. , decorated with many beautiful frescos. The monks used to stay here during the rainy season. The Chinese pilgrim Hiuen Tsang (A.D. 650) went also to Ajanta and gave an account of his visit. The caves of Ellora which we visited as well are Buddhist, Brahman and Jain. Sometimes we had to sit in the bus for the greater part of the night, but in between we got out of the bus when the tired drivers had to drink tea or when there was a flat tire. Then we had an opportunity to enjoy the Indian village life which has not changed much since the time of the Buddha. We had Dhamma conversations even during the night when we were sitting in the dark and, thus, we hardly noticed the bodily discomfort due to the long sitting in the bus and the lack of sleep. --------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125821 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2012 8:08 pm Subject: Dhamma medicine for Lodewijk, Phil & all from 2011 audio sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Lodewijk, Phil and all, Nina, you mentioned that Lodewijk has appreciated listening to transcripts of extracts from Khun Sujin while he's been unwell. Please would you kindly read this one to him for some precious Dhamma medicine which I know he'll appreciate. I'm sure Phil and anyone else in need of Dhamma medicine (all of us - we'e all sick!) will benefit too. **** KS: The development of understanding is the only way to eradicate the unwholesomeness permanently and absolutely. Otherwise one keeps thinking about siila, like "death will come, so what about siila?", but actually who knows when will death come, so the most important thing is to understand reality right now. P: And yesterday you said to me several times "not enough "... KS: Right, because at the moment of being aware and developing the understanding of reality it is the higher siila, not just the abstention from ill deeds temporarily, but this is the way to eradicate [defilements] absolutely. We do not have to think of the time - "Oh, I'll have siila or abstain from such and such temporarily", but it is the absolute abstaining from ill deeds with right understanding. P: I worry too much about attachment to the Teachings, that was keeping me from saying "not enough just to have siila, we have to understand reality"... KS: And it indicates so much clinging to the I or me instead of understanding reality now as just a moment of experiencing what is seen and what is heard, what is thought about. So it is just now. One can understand [more and more] that reality is now appearing for understanding - or for ignorance and attachment. *** M: Ajahn, if nimitta is a sign of visible object does that mean that it is only possible for awareness to be aware of concept...? KS: Usually we think about awareness instead of right understanding. So many people just cling to have it instead of understanding it, but the most important thing is not the awareness but the understanding, because whenever there is understanding there is awareness. You don't have to seek or try to have it at all, but when there is only awareness without understanding, it is kusala without pa~n~naa. So instead of thinking about whether there is awareness or not, at the moment of understanding there must be awareness at different levels. For example, intellectual understanding is right understanding at the level of understanding the story of realities. At that moment there is awareness, so it's the development of right understanding together with awareness, but most people concentrate on awareness and try so much to have it. What for without understanding? So thinking about going to the forest or to the secluded place - at that moment right understanding is not enough to understand that the way to eradicate the akusala must be that which can understand reality now or right then, anytime, any place, anywhere, very naturally because no one can condition anything. No one can condition seeing now as no one can condition thinking now, no one can condition sati and pa~n~naa, so it's just the development of understanding only - the most important thing. While thinking about death, understand reality which appears because there must be siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa right then together and its the finer siila too, higher siila because it's not just abstaining from ill deeds intentionally, but it's by conditions to know that it's not self at all. ***** Metta Sarah ===== [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125822 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 12:28 am Subject: Re: Teaching control as a strategy in no-control world truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi KenH, all, >KH:I think you are purposely misunderstanding. But I won't go into >why I >think you are purposely misunderstanding. >=================================== I was reading about an idea that Buddha used stories (Mythology such as in DN27 Aganna sutta, etc) as teaching tools. So I thought about teaching strategy dealing with more technical things. Could the same stuff be applicable here? >KH: Instead I will try to answer your question. > >It is true that in ultimate reality there is no one who can strive. >However, it is not true that in ultimate reality there *is* someone >who cannot strive. > >There is no more anyone who "can't do good and avoid evil" than >there is anyone who can. The two ways that seem to you to have been >suggested have [as far as I know] never been suggested at DSG. >=========================================================== Thank you very much for your good answer. With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125823 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 3:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kenh1 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E R: But the kamma from the akusala cetana is still there, yes? K: I am not sure of your question, could you elaborate more, thanks R: Thanks for clarifying that. This makes sense. So the kamma is the same even if the person is unaware of doing anything wrong? K: There is a different in in kamma for one who know does it consciously and one who does not. The Questions of King Malinda pg 129 Book 1 pg 129, 8. The king said: "Whose Nagasena is the greater demerit - his who sins consciously, or he who sins inadvertently.?' 'He who sins inadvertently, O King has the greater demerit." "In that case, reverend Sir, we shall punish doubly any of our family or our court who do wrong unintentionaly." "But what do you think, O King? If one man were to seize hold intentionally a fiery mass of metal glowing with heat, and another were to seize hold of it unintentionally, which would be more burnt?' "The one who did not know what he was doing." "Well it is just the same with the man who does wrong." K: We have to be careful on the usage of the word intentionally here. It is not in the context of unknowling step on a caterpillar, where there is no intention to kill at all. For the intentionally where meant that the person had the intent to kill and complete the the act knowning that it will result in bad kamma, he still do it for whatever reason he had. The unintentionally means that the person does not know the the result of bad kamma from for the act of killing, he had the intention to kill and completed the act of killing. Cheers KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125824 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 4:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob K >Unpleasant bodily feeling is vipaka, the result of akusala kamma. >Of course kamma result is supported by other conditions: > >The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 notes that there is no single fruit from a single cause: > >"for here there is no single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. BUT with one representative fruit and cause given thus 'avijja paccaya vinnana' etc. For the blessed one uses one representative cause and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit the inclinations of those being taught. And he does so in some instances because it is a basic factor and in some instances because it is obvious and in some instances because of being not shared"...."he mentioned a single cause in the passage 'diseases due to phlegm'(in the sutta above) because of obviousness,for here it is phlegm that is obvious, not kamma and so on." >robert K: Thanks for bringing up the text. If that is mention, than it will correct. If not, the bodily pain is not just entirely from result of kamma, it can be from other causes like phelgm, cold etc. This is similiar to death, where it is not entirely due to result of kamma, it could be from hunger, thirst etc KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (24) #125825 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 12:57 pm Subject: Re: Ven. Dhammadharo's sermon. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Rob, I was thinking of your questions on siila when I came across > this sermon of the late Bhante Dhammadharo. ...We may even cling to kusala. Although it brings pleasant > results, it is still impermanent, it is still dukkha. It is anattå, > nothing abiding, nothing lasting, nothing substantial. > Remind yourself again and again of what the goal is. Don't be > negligent. When it is time for dåna, give! Even when it is not time > for dåna, perhaps it can be made into time for dåna. Don't be > negligent as to síla. If one neglects síla, who knows what could > happen. All sorts of bad deeds of the past might have an opportunity > to give bad results, they might cause one to be in a situation where > one cannot hear Dhamma anymore. I liked that talk very much. This section above seems to summarize some of the important points - it is important to cultivate sila, because one's circumstances might give bad results, including circumstances in which you cannot hear the Dhamma. It just shows some connection of sila to the opportunity at least to develop understanding. And he also emphasizes the importance of sila. And of course he also says that understanding is most important, but other kusala also has importance. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125826 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 1:46 pm Subject: Re: "More kusala means less murders" jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125813) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: Well clearly the Buddha mentions many many conventional actions, rules, dictates, etc., that are not distinguished as innocuous advice that is unrelated to the path. Why would the Buddha talk about such things and make up so many rules for monks, etc., if they were not relevant to the path? This sort of mystifies me, as it seems to filter out those things that do not fit into a pure 'understanding dhamma' philosophy but are never-the-less given great emphasis over many many instances by the Buddha. Does the Buddha spend uncountable hours teaching about things that have nothing to do with the path? This is what bothers me. The Buddha did not speak in the same absolutely pure terms as the Abhidhamma, and one has to use supposition to filter out all those other teachings. What makes most sense to me - not of my own philosophy but of all the different things that the Buddha teaches about, and that are taken up as well in the Visudhimagga and other scriptures - is that all of those things have importance to development of the path. Even though understanding is the ultimate goal, and the most important vehicle, it is not the only element of the path. > =============== J: Well, it's a question of what the Buddha actually says about something, rather than the fact that he mentions it (or how many times he mentions it). It's not enough to say that he wouldn't mention something if it wasn't part of the path. I think we need to look at some of the specific passages you have in mind. Perhaps a different picture will emerge regarding the role of sila/kusala conduct in the development of the path than the one that resides in your recollection of suttas read long ago :-)) Do you think you could you try to find some examples? Regarding, "Even though understanding is the ultimate goal, it is not the only element of the path", it depends in what sense you're using the term "element". To my understanding a moment of insight involves the understanding of a presently arising dhamma rather than kusala conduct of the kind you've been talking about. But I suppose you are referring to your understanding of conventional kusala conduct as being included in the factors of the NEP (did you see my recent message with quotes from the texts on this point?). > =============== > > J: ...while there may well be a change in behaviour for many/most, it is not a principle of the teachings that this must be so, as far as I'm aware. > > RE: Some things can be deduced from the preponderance of the teachings and how almost everyone behaves. Just as you say that the suttas have to be understood within the entire scriptural context, such elements as behavior and action have also to be understood by how they appear in various contexts in the scriptures. There are some spiritual > =============== J: Regarding "Some things can be deduced from ... how almost everyone [at the time of the Buddha] behaves", do you mean that there are some principles of dhamma that were not spoken of by the Buddha but which can nevertheless be deduced from the reports of people's behaviour contained in the texts? I think such a notion would contradict what the Buddha himself said about his teaching. He said he had mentioned everything that needed to be mentioned. I don't think it's safe to make deductions regarding principles of the Dhamma from general descriptions of events or situations contained in the texts. > =============== > > J: Regarding, "it would take an awfully horrifying situation to get me anywhere close to seriously harming someone", we really have no idea what (horrifying or worse) situations vipaka has in store for us in this life, and it's quite possible that something will happen that arouses strong akusala emotions (e.g., grief, regret, revenge, jealousy) that we didn't know we had. > > RE: Well that's true - I've already experienced a few periods of vipaka that were pretty hellish -- I'm sure we all have. Still, I think one's 'tendencies' do change over time, don't they, as one gets slightly more aware...? > =============== J: Regarding "I think one's 'tendencies' do change over time, don't they, as one gets slightly more aware...?", I would say firstly not tendencies in the sense of the accumulated latent tendencies but rather in how those tendencies manifest, i.e., one's behaviour (or behavioural patterns), and secondly that our experience in life shows that people's behaviour changes over time anyway, under the influence of, for example, a traumatic experience such as a health scare or near accident, the loss of a person close to us, or just growing older and more mature, and it's difficult to ascribe any particular change in behaviour to one influencing factor rather than another. > =============== > > J: The thing is that all the gross accumulated tendencies with which we were born remain accumulated, even though they may have been relatively latent since we became interested in the teachings. > > RE: But they do continue to develop and change over time, don't they? Perhaps what you are suggesting is that the time frame is very long... > =============== J: Yes, longer than a single lifespan (except of course for the lifespan during which enlightenment is attained :-)) Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125827 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 2:52 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125814) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: However, you have not commented on the main point of the Bhikkhu Bodhi passage, namely, that only wholesome kamma generated by developing the NEP leads to enlightenment, while all other wholesome kamma leads to pleasant results within the round of rebirths. > > > > To my understanding, `developing the NEP' is here a reference to awareness/insight, and not to other forms of kusala (dana, sila and samatha bhavana). > > RE: Well, that is another point of possible conflict in our views. As I have been trying to put forward with whatever frail support I have around these parts, I see such elements of the NEP as Right Livelihood and Right Action to involve conventional activities in addition to the mental factors that may accompany them. And I see the NEP as developmental over time - a holistic development of interacting factors - rather than an instantaneous arising of mental factors at the very end of the journey. > =============== J: I'd still like to know whether you accept the 2-fold classification of wholesome conduct given in the texts (and as explained by Bhikkhu Bodhi), namely, (a) wholesome conduct that leads to enlightenment and (b) wholesome conduct that leads only to pleasant results within the round of rebirths. If you do, then are you saying that all sila falls within (a)? What are the kinds of kusala that would fall within (b) but not within (a), as you see it? > =============== > RE: There are any number of suttas - such as the one about the advanced women disciples who were discussing their meditation subjects with each other - where the higher development of elements of the NEP are present in their everyday life and are not confined to the moment of enlightenment. > =============== J: Regarding "the higher development of elements of the NEP ... are not confined to the moment of enlightenment", I've never suggested that the factors of the NEP arise only at the moment of enlightenment. What the texts say is that at the moment of enlightenment *all 8* of the NEP factors co-arise, while at mundane path moments (i.e., moments of awareness/insight) *only some* of those factors (but always including the factor of Right View). As far as your remarks about daily life are concerned, I agree that awareness/insight is to be developed in daily life. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125828 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 2:56 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125816) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: Regarding "Is this because the cetana is stronger if the act is completed, or does the physicalization of the act have some bearing on the kamma?". As I understand it, cetana--and only cetana--is kamma. > > > If the act is `completed' (i.e., is akusala kamma patha), the kamma is stronger that if not `completed'. > > RE: Well that is the important point - the physical act creates stronger kamma because it is a more complete kamma patha. Obviously we can all understand the difference between a moment of murderousness arising, and the sustained akusala cetana necessary to actually go murder someone. > =============== J: Regarding "the physical act creates stronger kamma because it is a more complete kamma patha", you are perhaps trying to draw a general conclusion, propose a general rule, from a specific and limited set of circumstances. Consider the following 2 possible outcomes to a situation where A shoots B with intent and B suffers life-threatening injuries: Outcome (1) is that B dies from his wounds in hospital a week later, while outcome (2) is that B survives. Here, the `stronger kamma' occurring in the case of outcome (1) is not a matter of any specific `physical act' on the part of A that differentiates it from the case of outcome (2). So kamma/vipaka doesn't work the way you're assuming it does. The texts clearly indicate that kamma is the mental factor of volition (cetana). I don't think this leaves any room for speculation about the role of `physical acts' on the part of the person performing the kamma. > =============== > > J: Does this mean that the cetana is stronger? That depends on what `stronger' means in this context. Obviously it would not necessarily be stronger in the conventional sense of that term. > > > > (The intricacies of the operation of kamma are one of the `unfathomables'.) > > RE: Still, I think it is said clearly that completing a murder or any act is stronger kamma than cetana that is 'dropped' without speech or action taking place. And that makes obvious sense in ordinary terms - hopefully it makes equal sense in dhamma terms. > > Even if rupas do not cause kamma, they can represent the strength of the cetana that does create the kamma. > =============== J: Regarding, "Even if rupas do not cause kamma, they can represent the strength of the cetana that does create the kamma", I don't think that's the case. Consider the example given just above about A shooting at B. The rupas that you would say represent the `physical act' on the part of A are the same in both cases, but in the first case the akusala kamma is `completed', and in the second case not. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125829 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana 2 - Why Only Four? (2) sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ken O, Thank you for the good quotes you share which I like to reflect on. For example: >________________________________ > From: Ken O >Dispeller of Delusion > >1019. Or alternatively, it is in order to abandon the perversions (vipallãsa) of the beautiful, the pleasant, the permanent and self. For the body is foul, and herein beings are perverted [into regarding it as beautiful] by the perversion of the beautiful....... ... S: We may read about reflections on the body as foul and think in a conventional way about 'this body' and so on. However, it is only through the development of understanding of the realities, of rupas, that are taken mistakenly for 'this body' along with all other realities that wrong views can be eradicated and eventually at the stage of anagami only is the eradication of the perversion of rupas and other dhammas (namas) as being beautiful. All conditioned dhammas arise and fall away, they are inherently foul. Only the anagami has no more sensuous attachment, no more idea of subha (beauty) in them. ... >Commentary to The Root of Existence (MN1) > >"Having perceived earth as earth" <...> >Sub. Cy.  Panpancasankha  = portions of panpanca. Because of these, beings are detained (papa) in samsara, i.e., delayed, thus these are "proliferating tendencies .” "Conceiving" (mannana): because of these, people conceive, i.e. misconstrue (parikappenti), things as "This is mine," etc. Craving, conceit, and views are referred lo here by two synonymous terms, "conceiving" and "proliferating tendencies." > >"He apprehends it ... contrary (to reality)": like the conceiving of views, the conceivings of craving and conceit also apprehend things contrary to reality—craving assuming the repulsive to be beautiful, conceit the inferior to be superior, etc. .... S: I was listening to a recording this morning about upanissaya gocara - the importance of the accumulation of right understanding of the right objects, i.e. realities, and how the hearing about such objects is decisive support for such gocara (objects) to condition any moment of right understanding. So when we listen, instead of just accumulating more papanca, more craving, conceit and views whilst thinking about useless stories, there are conditions for more understanding of realities to develop. The 'right object' has to be about this moment, about realities appearing now, such as seeing and visible object. Gradually there is more and more confidence about this 'right object' rather than wishing and hoping for awareness or quick enlightenment and so on. Whatever we think about just accumulates on and on - time to reflect and understand what really appears now. Thx again for sharing. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125830 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 6:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana 2 - Why Only Four? sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ken O, The following is a good example of the kind of passage that can easily be misunderstood if we forget that all dhammas are anatta and beyond anyone's control: >________________________________ > From: Ken O >Dispeller of Delusion > >1017. If that is so, why are “foundations of mindfulness” in the plural? Because of the plurality of mindfulness. For that mindfulness is plural, corresponding to the different kinds of its object. > >1018. But why are precisely four foundations of mindfulness stated by the Blessed One, no less, no more? Because of being beneficial to those capable of being taught. For as regards those who have the habit of craving, who have the habit of [wrong] view, who have the vehicle of tranquility and who have the vehicle of insight, each occurring in two forms by way of the slow-witted and quick-witted [as regards these,] for one having the habit of craving who is slow-witted, the coarse contemplation of the body as foundation of mindfulness is the path to purity, and for the quick-witted the subtle contemplation of feeling as foundation of mindfulness. Also for one having the habit of [wrong] view who is slow-witted the not greatly divided up contemplation of the mind as foundation of mindfulness is the path to purity, and for the quick-witted the greatly divided up contemplation of mental objects as foundation of mindfulness. And for one who has the vehicle >of tranquility who is slow-wined, the first foundation of mindfulness is the path to purity because the sign is obtainable with little trouble, and for the quick-witted the second because of his not becoming steadied in a coarse object. Also for one who has the vehicle of insight who is slow-witted, the third which is not greatly divided up as to object, and for the quick-witted the fourth which is greatly divided up as to object. Thus four are stated, no less, no more. ... S: People may read it as suggesting that they should focus on one of the four foundations according to whether they are "slow-witted", "quick-witted" and so on. In fact all kinds of dhammas have to be directly understood and it's beyond anyone's control as to what kind of reality will be experienced, will be the object of mindfulness at anytime. Even the Buddha could not control the arising of dhammas. It has to be a path of understanding with detachment. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125831 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 6:30 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > >R: And yet definite conventional actions are praised and blamed by the Buddha, and I believe that this aspect of Dhamma is meant to be taken seriously, as I believe does Rob K. I think you are wrong on this one. There is no controlling person, but actions still have consequences. > > ... > > S: You've continued to have an interesting discussion with Jon on this topic. It is always just dhammas that can be understood - cittas, cetasikas and rupas appearing now, one at a time. > > I wonder if we can say that the physical aspect of kamma patha is purely expressed in terms of rupas...? .... S: Kamma patha is always mental - it refers specifically to cetana cetasika (intention/kamma) that is of the degree that it conditions particular kinds of speech or acts through the body, i.e rupas conditioned by those akusala cittas. For example, we may feel angry with someone but keep quiet or we may feel angry and shout out. In both instances there are akusala cittas with dose, but only in the second case do these cittas condition the speech. Here's a quote I heard from K.Sujin this morning: "The point of listening to Dhamma is not for having less akusala or having more kusala, but for understanding realities - otherwise [it's just] lobha (attachment) for oneself." Someone suggested that renunciation, such as choosing not to follow a married life, might be preferable. KS: "What about next life? This is what you think about - this life, what about next life? It's only thinking." She went on to talk about how only pa~n~naa can bring renunciation. "What about understanding attachment when it arises? That's the only way." Same with dosa, intentions to harm and so on - all dhammas can only be known when they arise, not by wishing to have less akusala or by thinking that there should be less akusala because there is some little understanding of dhammas. I think I've side-tracked.... Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125832 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 6:57 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > S: "Simply by understanding dhammas...." What else is there to understand? > >R: Well the question is whether understanding is everything. It is the leader, and it is the ultimate, but is it the entire path? Is it okay to see "killing a chicken" as merely dhammas and simply "understand" them and keep killing the chicken? That's the question I think that is raised regarding conventional actions - do they count, or not? .... S: The point is that there are only dhammas and that all these dhammas you refer to are conditioned anyway. If there are conditions for dosa to arise and the intention to kill the chicken leading to the deed, no self can stop or change it. Only the development of right understanding can know such dhammas for what they are - akusala and anatta - leading to the eventual eradication of such tendencies. ... > > It is not only a question of whether there is akusala intention. I think we can agree that without akusala intention/volition the action would not "count." The question is, if akusala cetana leads to 'completed physical kamma patha,' eg, killing a chicken, is the action of killing a chicken the expression of the akusala cetana, and in addition, is that not worse than merely having the cetana and not acting on it? ... S: Yes - stronger akusala cetana when it is kamma patha. We might think of harming an animal or person, but it's just a thought most the time. ... >I think it is clear in various scriptures that it is worse if the action is carried out than if it is just intended, and if so, that means that conventional actions express dhammas and have a role in the path, as I think the Buddha often expressed with various descriptions, admonitions and directives. ... S: Whatever words he used, he was describing conditioned dhammas. In the case of kamma, as I've mentioned, it is all pointing to the cittas and intentions which condition various intimations and other kinds of rupas. ... > > Even if the above is the case, understanding the nature of the dhammas involved is still the essential ingredient in development, but the life of action that is being lived and that is expressing kusala or akusala cetana is also important. ... S: Rupas don't have any intention to harm, they don't experience any objects. It is the namas - the cittas and associated mental factors that are harmful. .... > > >S: Whatever the activity, there are only dhammas. Understanding these dhammas more and more precisely when they arise, when they appear is the only way that akusala of all kinds can ever be eradicated. Understanding is the forerunner, the leader, just like the dawn. > > ... > > > Maybe this issue could be raised with K. Sujin? > > .... > > S: Sure. Could you write a two or three line qu of exactly what you'd like to ask her. I'll be glad to raise it. > > I think I would ask: > Does it matter what we do? Can a person be 'on the path' while having a livelihood as someone who kills animals for a living? Can we kill someone and still be 'on the path?' Can we experience development of kusala while engaging in clearly harmful and forbidden conventional activities, such as unlawful sexual activity, drinking, gambling, gossiping, sowing of dissension, speaking badly of the Buddha, killing people, beating people up? Does it matter, or is understanding dhammas the *only* ingredient of the path? In terms of the path and bhavana, does it matter if a monk breaks precepts? All of the above are conventional activities, but can also be seen as the expression of kusala or akusala cetana. What is the right way to look at such activities and the kamma patha that they represent? > > If that is too long, I will try to cut it down... ... S: Thank you - I'll raise it. I know what'll happen, I'll start reading "Does it matter what we do?...." and she'll say something like: "Excuse me, 'we'? 'do'? What do you mean?" And then "Can a person be 'on the path'..." and she'll ask: "A person?....." :-)) I don't think we'll get past the first line..... :) Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125833 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 7:20 pm Subject: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E & Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > >KO: Yes Right speech is not just restraining of wrong speech, it is at the moment of speaking where speech is consider right or wrong. Restraining at the moment is the arising of kusala mental factor and not right speech. As you say, this is the same for all body and verbal acts. the moment where it is done, it is where it is consider right or wrong, if not it is just consider the arising of kusala or akusala mental factors > >R: Thanks for your view on this. It seems that the akusala mental factors will still create akusala kamma, but that the kamma is worse if the akusala is completed through action. Does that accord with what you are saying? ... S: Are you referring to right speech of the path as a path factor? If so, it is the virati, the abstention from wrong speech when there is an opportunity for such. (for an arahat, no virati because no opportunities for akusala of any kind). From CMA, ch VII, guide to #17 ".....Right speech, right action, and right livelihood are the three abstinences (viratis) found collectively in the supra mundane cittas and separately on particular occasions in mundane wholesome cittas." In the commentary itself to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (PTS), ch 2 "Mentalities": Ab. Sangaha: "Right speech, right action and right livelihood - these are 'the three refrainings'. Commentary: " Right Speech (sammaavaacaa) is that by which one speaks rightly; it is the refraining from wrong conduct in speech. it is fourfold: refraining from false speech, refraining from divisive speech, refraining from unkind speech, and refraining from frivolous chatter. "Action (kammanta) is simply 'action' (kamma), like suttanta, vacant, etc., [which are not different from sutta, vana, etc.]; right action (sammaakammanta) is an action that occurs rightly; it is the refraining from wrong bodily conduct. It is threefold: refraining from harming living creatures, refraining from taking what is not given, and refraining from sexual misconduct. "Right livelihood (sammaa-aajiiva) is that by means of which one makes a living rightly; it is the refraining from wrong livelihood. By way of refraining from misconduct of body and speech as the basis of one's livelihood, it is sevenfold; alternatively by way of refraining from wrong livelihood by means of deceitful talk, etc., it is manifold. These, which are also each threefold by way of [refraining from] an opportunity gained, [refraining] because of undertaking [the precepts] and [refraining] by cutting off [defilements], are called the three refrainings because of refraining from the said kinds of misconduct." .... S: If there is no opportunity to speak wrongly or to harm, then there is no such refraining occurring - these path 'rights' only arise when there is an opportunity to transgress. If we are not talking about the development of the path, then I agree that any kusala cittas arising whilst speaking can be referred to as 'right' and so on. Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125834 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 7:31 pm Subject: Re: What I heard, sickness. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina & all, I appreciate this: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Khun Jutiman became sick on an India Tour. > > Kh Sujin said that we need not be troubled or worry about what we > should do. has to happen. ... S: Yes, we hear a friend or relative is sick and usually we feel so trouble or disturbed - a long story, not understanding that such dhammas arise according to conditions and cannot be any other way. .. >Everything is anattaa. > If one has no understanding of the Dhamma one is disturbed by such > events or by unpleasant things one hears. We know that it is dhamma > arising according to conditions. Hearing arises because of > conditions: when there is earsense and sound, sound can be heard. > Hearing is kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. It arises > only very shortly. Why should we be disturbed by what lasts only for > a very short moment and is then gone? ... S: As usual, K.Sujin's words are so wise. We think of the sick patient, the long story and forget about awareness now of visible object or sound - the reality appearing. If there were no ear sense, no sound, no eye sense, no visible object, there'd be no disturbances on account of the thinking about them. Being disturbed is so very natural, but it doesn't help at all. Only the understanding now of realities helps. .. > > We believe that life lasts a long time, but its duration is only one > moment of citta, no matter it is the first citta in life, the rebirth- > consciousness or the last citta in life, the dying-consciousness. > They last only one moment. When we speak about death we speak about > death in conventional sense, sammutti sacca.> ... S: yes, again we have long stories about this person, this life-time, conventional birth and death and forget about the understanding of the death of citta, cetasikas and rupas at each moment now. "Life exists in a moment....." We've heard it so often and yet it is not enough.... there needs to be a lot of listening, considering, reflecting and understanding of present dhammas. Appreciating all the extracts and also your India series... Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125835 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 8, 2012 10:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Sarah (and Robert) - In a message dated 8/8/2012 4:30:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: Kamma patha is always mental - it refers specifically to cetana cetasika (intention/kamma) that is of the degree that it conditions particular kinds of speech or acts through the body, i.e rupas conditioned by those akusala cittas. ================================== At _http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/kamma_patha.htm_ (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/kamma_patha.htm) , I see the following: * kamma-patha 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): * 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; * 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; * 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125836 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ven. Dhammadharo's sermon. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E, Op 8-aug-2012, om 4:57 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I liked that talk very much. This section above seems to summarize > some of the important points - it is important to cultivate sila, > because one's circumstances might give bad results, including > circumstances in which you cannot hear the Dhamma. It just shows > some connection of sila to the opportunity at least to develop > understanding. And he also emphasizes the importance of sila. And > of course he also says that understanding is most important, but > other kusala also has importance. ------- N: Siila is one of the perfections, but it is only a perfection when we do not think of gaining something for ourselves. It is to be cultivated as a condition leading to having less defilements. It is to be developed along with pa~n~naa so that it is not taken for "my siila". ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125837 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 12:22 am Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 3. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, The Thai monk who had been so kind to join us in Nalanda where he resides in the Thai monastery, often stood in the front of the bus and preached at all hours of the day and night. He often mentioned to us the “inner and outer sense-fields” (åyatana), which are the doors of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, and the objects experienced through these doors. We were looking out of the window to see all the nice sights, but these were only visible object. Venerable Dhammadharo remarked that he found it quite wonderful to be reminded of all these realities on a bus trip like this. Where would one have such an occasion, he found. We should not to waste the opportunity to understand the inner and outer åyatanas; they are not theory, they are here, now! In my memory I still hear his voice, saying with much emphasis: “åyatana painai, åyatana painog” which are the Thai words denoting the inner and outer åyatanas. The venerable bhikkhu had intended to be with us only part of the way, but he changed his mind and decided to accompany us a little further, until he finally decided to come with us all the way to Bombay. One night when we were still sitting in the bus instead of sleeping in a hotel, he preached about all the different levels of giving, from the lowest to the highest level. He explained that síla can be considered also under the aspect of giving. If one abstains from ill deeds one gives other beings the opportunity to live in safety, without fear or worry. He said that the giving up of the åyatanas is the hardest to accomplish. He who has no more clinging has given up the eye, colour, the ear, sound and all the other åyatanas. The giving up of one’s defilements is the highest level of giving. During our pilgrimage we stayed in different hotels, some of which were very striking, such as the Raja’s Guesthouse in Balrampur. What was once a splendid palace with exquisite furniture and paintings of famous British artists on the walls is now an old, neglected, dilapidated building. We all have accumu-lated defilements and when we look at things defilements are bound to arise, according to our accumulations. One of us admired the colour schemes of the rooms and had attachment. I looked at the place as a housewife and thought that it needed a good cleaning out. I had aversion, but less than I usually would have had, had I not been on this pilgrimage. --------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125838 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma medicine for Lodewijk, Phil & all from 2011 audio nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, Thank you for the good Dhamma medicine and I will read it to him tonight. Nina. Op 7-aug-2012, om 12:08 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven > KS: The development of understanding is the only way to eradicate > the unwholesomeness permanently and absolutely. Otherwise one keeps > thinking about siila, like "death will come, so what about siila?", > but actually who knows when will death come, so the most important > thing is to understand reality right now.... > Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125839 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 1:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah  I was talking to Rob E in mundane level of refrainings and I hope his questions are about mundane one.    The three refrainings at supramundane level are all mental factor. I remember some one ask before why only mental for the three refrainings in supramundane level. At that time, I was unable to think of an answer. Then I remember I read somewhere that supramudance mundane citta could only happen in the mind door.    Since it is only mind door, the three refrainings at that instance are all mental.   Maybe next time must note down where I read my texts.  Cheers KC  > > >Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use >. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125840 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Howard  All volitions are mental, the difference in the ten volitions are classified on the doors where the volition happen. Body and speech movement are body rupas and voice rupas and they are conditioned to arise by citta. Also in the text, bodily and voice movement could only be possible when it is though the javana process as when sense citta arise, they are weak in energy. They are only strengthened through the javana process.    Cheers KC    >Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use >. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125841 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana 2 - Why Only Four? ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email  Dear Sarah  This is what is written in the text. I leave to readers including you to decide what they think of the text.      Thanks KC   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125842 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 3:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/8/2012 11:36:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard All volitions are mental, the difference in the ten volitions are classified on the doors where the volition happen. Body and speech movement are body rupas and voice rupas and they are conditioned to arise by citta. Also in the text, bodily and voice movement could only be possible when it is though the javana process as when sense citta arise, they are weak in energy. They are only strengthened through the javana process. Cheers KC ============================== I'm afraid that I'm not following you. Are you saying that the following are mental? 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125843 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Howard  Sorry, and I felt my explanation cause more confusion.  The texts are very clear on that when a bodily action is through the bodily door and not a mental door. It is not a mental act. The only time it is consider a mental action is the arising of supramundane citta  In the Commentary to the Summary of Topics of Abhidhamma; pg 178  <>   KC         >________________________________ >From: "upasaka@..." >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thursday, 9 August 2012, 1:39 >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. > > > >Hi, Ken - > >In a message dated 8/8/2012 11:36:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >ashkenn2k@... writes: > >Dear Howard > >All volitions are mental, the difference in the ten volitions are >classified on the doors where the volition happen. Body and speech movement are >body rupas and voice rupas and they are conditioned to arise by citta. Also >in the text, bodily and voice movement could only be possible when it is >though the javana process as when sense citta arise, they are weak in energy. >They are only strengthened through the javana process. > >Cheers >KC >============================== >I'm afraid that I'm not following you. Are you saying that the >following are mental? > > >3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; >4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; >With metta, >Howard >Seamless Interdependence > >/A change in anything is a change in everything/ > >(Anonymous) > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125844 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 7:11 am Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > >This is confusing to me, since I think it has been said that the kamma is worse if the act is completed. For instance, murdering someone is far worse than simply thinking of murdering someone, even if there is intention at the moment of thinking. And if one intends to kill and the act is somehow not completed, that is still better than completing the murder. Is this because the cetana is stronger if the act is completed, or does the physicalization of the act have some bearing on the kamma? > > K: There are different results from different cetana. Thinking of murdering someone is a cetana through the mind door, this cetana is ill will and will bear kamma result due to the thinking. The completed act of a killing is a cetana through body door that did the killing and will bear kamma result due to the act. Obviously there is some conflict here, as many people on dsg have stated that *only cetana* is kamma. I think you are clearly saying that there is kamma through the mind door, but also there is a different order of kamma through the body door, or through rupa. Jon has recently said to me directly that rupa cannot cause kamma. So I wonder why there is this difference in understanding. > The severity of the result of cetana is explained in this text from Commentary to The Ten Training Precepts, under the book Illustrator II > > <<20. By blamability, in the case of breathing things begining with animals that are devoid of special qualities, killing of breathing things is [relatively] less blamable in the case of small one and more blamable in the cause with a large physical frame. Why? Because of the greater magnitude of the means [needed]; and when the means are equal, [it depends] on the greater magnatude of the object, [namely, the breathing being]. Just to follow this, it seems that Illustrator is clearly saying that the rupas involved - size of being, effort involved, etc., will create greater or lesser kamma. Am I understanding "blamability" correctly here, as kamma? > But in the case of human beings etc, endowed with special qualities, killing breathing things is [relatively] less blamable in the case of one with small special qualities, and when there is equality of special qualities and of the physical frame, then the lesser blamableness should be understand to reside in the [relatively] mildness of defilements and of the active process adopted, and the greater the blamableness in their greater violence. So I think this is saying that the greater the violence, the worse the kamma that is generated? And that the more special or developed are the qualities of the human being killed, the worse the kamma involved. > So too with the rest. But unlike killing breathing things etc [whose > blamability varies], the opportunity for neligence due to liquour and besotting drink is always greatly blamable. Why? Because it obstructs the Noble Ones' True Idea by induing even madness in a human being. This is how the explanation should be known by blamability.>> So here it is being said that even the "opportunity for negligence" created by liquor or drugs is *always* blamable. Does that mean that just the act of drinking such intoxicants in itself creates akusala kamma? Sarah has recently said that intoxication in and of itself does not create akusala unless it leads to akusala cetana, so I am wondering if there is a conflict in these views or not. > And not all killing bear the same result, according to my view, some could be lessen due to one's development. For example, the king who will his father who is a sotapanna. The king born in hell due to killing his parent but only suffer in 60,000 years in the hot boiling pot. Others who has not the king development, may have suffer more in hell if making the same act of killing their parents who is sotapanna. The king eventually will be a silent buddha as predicted by Buddha. If the king did not kill his parent, he would have been enlighted when Buddha speaks to him on the dhamma. So akusala acts can also keep one from the chance for enlightenment? Is it right to say that akusala behavior here - killing his father who was a sotapanna - kept him from attaining enlightenment? How does that work exactly? :-) We have been talking about the relationship between sila and bhavana here so I am very interested. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125845 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 10:05 am Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > R: But the kamma from the akusala cetana is still there, yes? > > K: I am not sure of your question, could you elaborate more, thanks I am asking, if there is body-door kamma that arises from akusala cetana, do you then have two kinds of kamma, the mind-door kamma + the body-door kamma? I would think that the body-door kamma would not "replace" the mind-door kamma, but would be added to it. Without the cetana, the action would not take place. Let's say that kamma from akusala cetana is worth 5 kamma points, and body-door kamma is worth 8 points. You should add them and have a total of 13 kamma points, yes? :-) > R: Thanks for clarifying that. This makes sense. So the kamma is the same even if the person is unaware of doing anything wrong? > > K: There is a different in in kamma for one who know does it consciously and one who does not. Okay. Is it possible to kill without being conscious of it? In that case, it would not be murder, right? > The Questions of King Malinda pg 129 Book 1 pg 129, > 8. The king said: "Whose Nagasena is the greater demerit - his who sins consciously, or he who sins inadvertently.?' > 'He who sins inadvertently, O King has the greater demerit." > "In that case, reverend Sir, we shall punish doubly any of our family or our court who do wrong unintentionaly." > "But what do you think, O King? If one man were to seize hold intentionally a fiery mass of metal glowing with heat, and another were to seize hold of it unintentionally, which would be more burnt?' > "The one who did not know what he was doing." > "Well it is just the same with the man who does wrong." > > K: We have to be careful on the usage of the word intentionally here. It is not in the context of unknowling step on a caterpillar, where there is no intention to kill at all. For the intentionally where meant that the person had the intent to kill and complete the the act knowning that it will result in bad kamma, he still do it for whatever reason he had. The unintentionally means that the person does not know the the result of bad kamma from for the act of killing, he had the intention to kill and completed the act of killing. I don't understand this very well. If someone grabs a hot metal rod intentionally, he may be more skillful with the heat, and the one who grabs it unintentionally will be more burned. But with kamma, the bad result is for the intention, not just the action, so someone who killed purposely, even knowing the bad kamma, seems to me to be even worse. Even though he knows it is wrong and that it leads to bad result, the akusala cetana is so strong that he still wants to kill the person. Isn't that kamma much worse than someone who doesn't know what he is doing, who is driven by blind rage, and who doesn't know about kamma? In court, intentional killing [2nd degree murder] is considered a much greater crime than accidental killing. And pre-planned killing [1st degree murder] where the akusala cetana has to be carried over time to plan and carry out the killing is much worse than spontaneous murder where the akusala cetana just arose and took over the person. To me, it seems it would be the same as this in terms of kamma. The worse the akusala cetana, the worse the kamma. In your understanding, is this not the case? Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125846 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 10:17 am Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: However, you have not commented on the main point of the Bhikkhu Bodhi passage, namely, that only wholesome kamma generated by developing the NEP leads to enlightenment, while all other wholesome kamma leads to pleasant results within the round of rebirths. > > > > > > To my understanding, `developing the NEP' is here a reference to awareness/insight, and not to other forms of kusala (dana, sila and samatha bhavana). > > > > RE: Well, that is another point of possible conflict in our views. As I have been trying to put forward with whatever frail support I have around these parts, I see such elements of the NEP as Right Livelihood and Right Action to involve conventional activities in addition to the mental factors that may accompany them. And I see the NEP as developmental over time - a holistic development of interacting factors - rather than an instantaneous arising of mental factors at the very end of the journey. > > =============== > > J: I'd still like to know whether you accept the 2-fold classification of wholesome conduct given in the texts (and as explained by Bhikkhu Bodhi), namely, (a) wholesome conduct that leads to enlightenment and (b) wholesome conduct that leads only to pleasant results within the round of rebirths. > > If you do, then are you saying that all sila falls within (a)? What are the kinds of kusala that would fall within (b) but not within (a), as you see it? Well, I don't want to sound like a politician even though I live in Washington, D.C., but probably for me to answer that fully I'd have to study a few suttas and/or commentaries more carefully. I can explain my general view which I believe is supported by scriptures I have seen, but I don't think I'm quite qualified to determine exactly what aspects of sila and kusala/akusala actions lead directly or indirectly to either support or promulgate development of panna, and which are merely meritorious without having *any* relevance to the path. I think the way Nina puts it and the quotes she gives from K. Sujin in this regard are quite satisfying in this area - that sila and the perfections are always important and should be cultivated at all times and that they do give a support to the development of wisdom - at least I think that connection is made. Otherwise, why would sila be so important? I don't think that you would say that the Buddha gave teachings that were just to have a more pleasant life where everyone is nicer to each other and suffer a bit less, but that his teachings are of relevance to wisdom and release. So I think the teachings on sila have relevance, at least as supporting factors, but I don't have the full story. What I do think is that the path itself includes actions in the world that emanate from kusala mental factors, such as the desire to practice metta, to avoid killing and to do things that develop refined behavior and thought and do not create akusala kamma. And I think that such actions create conditions for development of understanding. We had an interesting quote lately where it was said that if one practiced various bad deeds it could lead to a condition in which one would not have access to the Dhamma, so that is one example of such a principle. > > =============== > > RE: There are any number of suttas - such as the one about the advanced women disciples who were discussing their meditation subjects with each other - where the higher development of elements of the NEP are present in their everyday life and are not confined to the moment of enlightenment. > > =============== > > J: Regarding "the higher development of elements of the NEP ... are not confined to the moment of enlightenment", I've never suggested that the factors of the NEP arise only at the moment of enlightenment. What the texts say is that at the moment of enlightenment *all 8* of the NEP factors co-arise, while at mundane path moments (i.e., moments of awareness/insight) *only some* of those factors (but always including the factor of Right View). Well that's an interesting clarification which I appreciate. Now that I understand what you think about that point, it makes a lot more sense. :-) [Note to self: clarify what someone is actually saying in future.] > As far as your remarks about daily life are concerned, I agree that awareness/insight is to be developed in daily life. That is great - now let's see if I ever develop any! :-) Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125847 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 2:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E >> >> >This is confusing to me, since I think it has been said that the kamma is worse if the act is completed. For instance, murdering someone is far worse than simply thinking of murdering someone, even if there is intention at the moment of thinking. And if one intends to kill and the act is somehow not completed, that is still better than completing the murder. Is this because the cetana is stronger if the act is completed, or does the physicalization of the act have some bearing on the kamma? >> >> K: There are different results from different cetana. Thinking of murdering someone is a cetana through the mind door, this cetana is ill will and will bear kamma result due to the thinking. The completed act of a killing is a cetana through body door that did the killing and will bear kamma result due to the act. > >Obviously there is some conflict here, as many people on dsg have stated that *only cetana* is kamma. I think you are clearly saying that there is kamma through the mind door, but also there is a different order of kamma through the body door, or through rupa. Jon has recently said to me directly that rupa cannot cause kamma. So I wonder why there is this difference in understanding. K: Whether is it a mind door or body door, cetana is kamma that carries out the mental or body act. A bodily action is not a rupa alone, it is a mind with object which is a bodily rupa. In Abhidhamma, bodily and speech movements are rupas which are caused by citts. Rupa cannot cause kamma. Rupa is just dead matter if it is not accompanied by citta for example a dead body. Yes you are right to say that there is a different order through body door or mind door as the difference in the cetana is due to the doors. Expositor, pg 139 <> >> <<20. By blamability, in the case of breathing things begining with animals that are devoid of special qualities, killing of breathing things is [relatively] less blamable in the case of small one and more blamable in the cause with a large physical frame. Why? Because of the greater magnitude of the means [needed]; and when the means are equal, [it depends] on the greater magnatude of the object, [namely, the breathing being]. > >Just to follow this, it seems that Illustrator is clearly saying that the rupas involved - size of being, effort involved, etc., will create greater or lesser kamma. Am I understanding "blamability" correctly here, as kamma? K: blamability is how severe the result of kamma will be. >> But in the case of human beings etc, endowed with special qualities, killing breathing things is [relatively] less blamable in the case of one with small special qualities, and when there is equality of special qualities and of the physical frame, then the lesser blamableness should be understand to reside in the [relatively] mildness of defilements and of the active process adopted, and the greater the blamableness in their greater violence. > >So I think this is saying that the greater the violence, the worse the kamma that is generated? And that the more special or developed are the qualities of the human being killed, the worse the kamma involved. K: Yes >> So too with the rest. But unlike killing breathing things etc [whose >> blamability varies], the opportunity for neligence due to liquour and besotting drink is always greatly blamable. Why? Because it obstructs the Noble Ones' True Idea by induing even madness in a human being. This is how the explanation should be known by blamability.>> > >So here it is being said that even the "opportunity for negligence" created by liquor or drugs is *always* blamable. Does that mean that just the act of drinking such intoxicants in itself creates akusala kamma? Sarah has recently said that intoxication in and of itself does not create akusala unless it leads to akusala cetana, so I am wondering if there is a conflict in these views or not. K: The text is clear that intoxication by drinking liquor ceates aksuala kamma. The only exception which I know of, is during sickness and you have to take a medicine which has alcohol content. You have to ask Sarah, in what context she meant by intoxication. Some people could be intoxicated by pleasant feelings arise from love or greed or by jhana bliss resulted from jhanas >> And not all killing bear the same result, according to my view, some could be lessen due to one's development. For example, the king who will his father who is a sotapanna. The king born in hell due to killing his parent but only suffer in 60,000 years in the hot boiling pot. Others who has not the king development, may have suffer more in hell if making the same act of killing their parents who is sotapanna. The king eventually will be a silent buddha as predicted by Buddha. If the king did not kill his parent, he would have been enlighted when Buddha speaks to him on the dhamma. > >So akusala acts can also keep one from the chance for enlightenment? Is it right to say that akusala behavior here - killing his father who was a sotapanna - kept him from attaining enlightenment? How does that work exactly? :-) We have been talking about the relationship between sila and bhavana here so I am very interested. K: Yes only the five grave sins will prevent those who could be enlighted cannot achieve enlightenment. Sila is part of bhavana. Sila is consider a bodily act depends on the door cetana is performed. Commentary to Discourse on the Root of Existence pg 42 <> In Visud, I, 17 <> In the commentary to Ten Training Precepts (inside Minor Readings and Illustrator), para 41 <<41 In addition, the explanation of abstentions fom killing breathing things, and the rest, can be known by origination, feeling, root, action, fruit and also as follow. Here is the lay out All these abstentions originate from four originations, namely, from body, form body cum cognizance, from speech cum cogniznace, and from body cum speech cum cognizance.>> cheers KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125848 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 3:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kenh1 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E > >I am asking, if there is body-door kamma that arises from akusala cetana, do you then have two kinds of kamma, the mind-door kamma + the body-door kamma? >I would think that the body-door kamma would not "replace" the mind-door kamma, but would be added to it. > >Without the cetana, the action would not take place. > >Let's say that kamma from akusala cetana is worth 5 kamma points, and body-door kamma is worth 8 points. You should add them and have a total of 13 kamma points, yes? :-) K: IMHO there is only one door for one act, there cannot be two doors in one act. For eg killing action has the root of dosa and moha, but at the momemnt of killing, it is body door and not mind door due to dosa. This is consistent with Abhidhamma that only one citta arise at any one time. >> The Questions of King Malinda pg 129 Book 1 pg 129, >> 8. The king said: "Whose Nagasena is the greater demerit - his who sins consciously, or he who sins inadvertently.?' >> 'He who sins inadvertently, O King has the greater demerit." >> "In that case, reverend Sir, we shall punish doubly any of our family or our court who do wrong unintentionaly." >> "But what do you think, O King? If one man were to seize hold intentionally a fiery mass of metal glowing with heat, and another were to seize hold of it unintentionally, which would be more burnt?' >> "The one who did not know what he was doing." >> "Well it is just the same with the man who does wrong." >> >> K: We have to be careful on the usage of the word intentionally here. It is not in the context of unknowling step on a caterpillar, where there is no intention to kill at all. For the intentionally where meant that the person had the intent to kill and complete the the act knowning that it will result in bad kamma, he still do it for whatever reason he had. The unintentionally means that the person does not know the the result of bad kamma from for the act of killing, he had the intention to kill and completed the act of killing. > >I don't understand this very well. If someone grabs a hot metal rod intentionally, he may be more skillful with the heat, and the one who grabs it unintentionally will be more burned. But with kamma, the bad result is for the intention, not just the action, so someone who killed purposely, even knowing the bad kamma, seems to me to be even worse. Even though he knows it is wrong and that it leads to bad result, the akusala cetana is so strong that he still wants to kill the person. Isn't that kamma much worse than someone who doesn't know what he is doing, who is driven by blind rage, and who doesn't know about kamma? > >In court, intentional killing [2nd degree murder] is considered a much greater crime than accidental killing. And pre-planned killing [1st degree murder] where the akusala cetana has to be carried over time to plan and carry out the killing is much worse than spontaneous murder where the akusala cetana just arose and took over the person. To me, it seems it would be the same as this in terms of kamma. The worse the akusala cetana, the worse the kamma. In your understanding, is this not the case? K: Honestly, I was reluctant to put up the text as it could cause confusion. This example is not about pre-plan murder. For the first part, the person had the intent to kill and complete the act. It could be a person who intents to protect the lives of his love ones from criminal and killed the criminal knowing it well that it will bring aksuala kamma. For the second part, the criminal does not know that killing is akuasala kamma, since he does not know, he is ignorance of kamma, which is the basis of mundane panna even for those outside the dispensation. Cetana is not measured in severity by just because this is done by mind door or this is done by body door. A kamma severity is measured by effort and the object being acted on. Using the example just now, this person kills the criminal and since the criminal is of less virture, the kamma is not as bad as the criminal who kill the person who holds the five precepts deligently. KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125849 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 5:32 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana 3 - Mundane or Supramundane or Mixed sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ken O & all, I iced this - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Commentary to Minduflness > > Regarding "the only way" there is the following account of a discussion that took place long ago. > > The Elder Tipitaka Culla Naga said: "The Way of Mindfulness-arousing (as expounded in our Discourse) is the (mundane) preliminary part (of the Eightfold Way)." > > His teacher the Elder Culla Summa said: "The Way is a mixed one (a way that is both mundane and supramundane)." > The pupil: "Reverend Sir, it is the preliminary part." > The teacher: "Friend, it is the mixed Way." > As the teacher was insistent, the pupil became silent. They went away without coming to a decision. > > On the way to the bathing place the teacher considered the matter. He recited the Discourse. When he came to the part where it is said: "O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for seven years," he concluded that after producing the consciousness of the Supramundane Path there was no possibility of continuing in that state of mind for seven years, and that his pupil, Culla Naga, was right. On that very day, which happened to be the eighth of the lunar fortnight, it was the elder Culla Naga's turn to expound the Dhamma. When the exposition was about to begin, the Elder Culla Summa went to the Hall of Preaching and stood behind the pulpit. > > After the pupil had recited the preliminary stanzas the teacher spoke to the pupil in the hearing of others, saying, "Friend, Culla Naga." The pupil heard the voice of his teacher and replied: "What is it, Reverend Sir?" The teacher said this: "To say, as I did, that the Way is a mixed one is not right. You are right in calling it the preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness-arousing." Thus the Elders of old were not envious and did not go about holding up only what they liked as though it were a bundle of sugar-cane. They took up what was rational; they gave up what was not. .... S: As Rob E pointed out recently, some, like those who listened to the Mulapariyaya sutta, were blinded by conceit and not willing to give up their views. Here we have a good example of those who did not just hold up what they liked, like "a bundle of sugar-cane"! They were willing to reconsider and listen to what was "rational". ... > Thereupon, the pupil, realising that on a point on which experts of the Dhamma like his learned teacher had floundered, fellows of the holy life in the future were more likely to be unsure, thought: "With the authority of a citation from the Discourse-collection, I will settle this question." Therefore, he brought out and placed before his hearers the following statement from the Patisambhida Magga: "The preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness-arousing is called the only way." And, in order to elaborate just that and to show of which path or way the instruction in our Discourse is the preliminary part, he further quoted the following also from the Patisambhida Magga: "The Excellent Way is the Eightfold way; four are truths; dispassion is the best of things belonging to the wise; besides that Way there is no other for the purifying of vision. Walk along that Way so that you may confound Death, and put an end to suffering." .... S: For the sake of understanding now and in the future, when we have the opportunity we should elaborate on what is correct and stressed in the Teachings, such as pointing out the Eightfold Path as being the "Only Way". Thanks again for your quotes, Ken O! Metta Sarah p.s did you listen to any of the recent part-edited recordings we uploaded? Perhaps when you're next shopping with your wife....:-) ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125850 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 7:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > S: Kamma patha is always mental - it refers specifically to cetana > cetasika (intention/kamma) that is of the degree that it conditions particular > kinds of speech or acts through the body, i.e rupas conditioned by those > akusala cittas. > ================================== > At _http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/kamma_patha.htm_ > (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/kamma_patha.htm) , I see the following: > > > * kamma-patha > > 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either > unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. > I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): > * 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; > * 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; > * 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. ..... S: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html 3. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma. commentary 3. Understands the unwholesome (akusalan ca pajanati): he understands the unwholesome called the ten courses of unwholesome kamma (action), penetrating this by way of function with the understanding that has Nibbana as its object as "This is suffering." (Understands) the root of the unwholesome (akusalamulan ca pajanati): And he understands the unwholesome root which has become the root condition of that (unwholesome), penetrating this, in the same way, as "This is the origin of suffering." The same method applies here also in regard to "the wholesome" and "the root of the wholesome." And, as it is here, so in all the following sections, the understanding of the subject should be understood by way of function. **** CMA (Abhidhammattha Sangaha, ed by B.Bodhi) ch V on "Unwholesome Kamma": "Of them, unwholesome kamma is threefold according to the doors of action: bodily action, verbal action, and mental action...." [S: the passage then goes on to enumerate the various kinds of akusala kamma patha according to the doors of action.] Guide note: "The above passage enumerates the ten unwholesome courses of action (akusalakammapatha). As shown, three are bodily, four are verbal and three are purely mental. The first seven courses are identified with the volition initiating an effort to accomplish the respective action. Such volition is an unwholesome kamma regardless of whether or not it completes the action, but if it does reach completion of the action and achieves its aim (e.g. the death of the intended victim, the appropriation of another's property, etc.) then it becomes a full course of action. The characteristic of a full course of action is being a kamma with the potency to take on the rebirth-generating role." S: note that in all cases, the kamma is the cetana. It just depends on the strength of that cetana and other factors as to whether it becomes kamma-patha. Another note given in the Guide: "In relation to action, the doors (dvaara) are the media through which kamma is performed. The door of the body is the bodily intimation (kaayavi~n~natti), a type of mind-produced material phenomenon by which a person expresses, through the medium of the body, a volition arisen in the mind." [S: There are 2 kinds of intimation (vi~n~natti) - bodily and speech. Intimation is the way that ideas are indicated. They are produced by citta (consciousness) which causes the bodily rupas or speech rupas to move according to the intentions by way of the air element (bodily rupas) or earth element (speech rupas). They have the function of showing intention.] Hope this clarifies. So "bodily actions" refers in this case (of kamma patha) to the body-door (i.e the kaaya vi~n~natti) as being the gateway or means by which the kamma (cetana) is expressed. The same applies to "verbal actions". Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125851 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 7:12 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana 3 - Mundane or Supramundane or Mixed sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken O & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > I iced this - .... S: I didn't "ice" it at all, though it's super hot here in Hong Kong today, so some icing might have been in oder:-)) I meant I liked it..... Sarah Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125852 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 10:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/9/2012 5:06:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hope this clarifies. So "bodily actions" refers in this case (of kamma patha) to the body-door (i.e the kaaya vi~n~natti) as being the gateway or means by which the kamma (cetana) is expressed. The same applies to "verbal actions". ============================ Yes, kamma is always (and only) cetana, but that is not so of actions pursuant to that intention , many of these being physical. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125853 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 9, 2012 11:59 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, When there is seeing, cittas rooted rooted in lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion) or moha (ignorance) may arise almost immediately. When we are carried away by our defilements we are forgetful of the different realities that appear. We are mostly forgetful of visible object or seeing; then right understanding is not being developed. Visible object appears time and again, also now, but we are so absorbed in the details of what we see that we forget to be mindful. Visible object is only what appears through the eyes, nothing else. We may believe that we have to do something special in order to know visible object, but this is not so. We may worry that there is thinking about visible object instead of awareness of it, but are there not also moments that there isn’t any thinking, just the appearance of what is visible? While our eyes are open are there not moments of seeing or is there thinking all the time? If there were no seeing we could not think of what is seen. We think about the details of what we see and we pay attention to different colours, but these moments are different from just seeing, the experience of what appears through the eyes. When there are conditions for the arising of sati it can be aware of only one reality at a time, it may be visible object, seeing, feeling or any other reality. It depends on conditions of what reality there is mindfulness. When visible object appears it should be realized as just visible object, not something or somebody. There is no India, no Balrampur, no Raja’s Guesthouse in the visible object. Our pilgrimage was very fruitful in many ways. The goal of the journey was paying respect to the Buddha who taught the Dhamma out of compassion and, thus, there were many opportunities for kusala cittas. At the holy places we were thinking of the Buddha’s teachings and his words reminded us to consider and investigate nåma and rúpa. -------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125854 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E, Op 7-aug-2012, om 5:34 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > As to the monk: when transgressions are grave he is no longer > > considered as a monk, and this is all explained in the Vinaya, about > > different degrees of transgressions. > > Can it be explained in terms of understanding dhammas, why the > transgressions are considered 'bad' for a monk? Is it for > conventional reasons, or is it related to the understanding of > dhammas for that monk? ------ N: Then he forgets the goal for which he has gone forth: arahatship, the eradication of all defilements. All the rules have to be seen in connection with satipa.t.thaana. The Vinaya and satipa.t.thaana should not be separated. Satipa.t.thaana is not mentioned all the time, but it is implied. You ask about conventional reasons. Here is a text about the purpose of the Patimokkha rules: We read about the purposes of the rules the monks had to observe in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Twos, Ch XVII, § 1, Results): Monks, it was to bring about these pairs of results that the Observances were enjoined on his disciples by the Tathågata. What two? The excellence and well-being of the Order... The control of ill-conditioned monks and the comfort of good monks... The restraint, in this very life, of the åsavas, guilt, faults, fears and unprofitable states: and the protection against the same in a future life. Out of compassion for householders, and to uproot the factions of the evilly disposed... To give confidence to believers, and for the betterment of believers... To establish true Dhamma, for the support of the Discipline... Monks, it was to bring about these pairs of results.... ---------- > R: Do the transgressions interfere with bhavana? -------- N: They are contrary to his brahmafaring, to the purpose of monkhood. It depends how grave his transgressions are. He may confess them to other monks and be determined not to transgress again, be remorseful. Or if the transgression is very grave like killing, he is no longer considered to be a monk. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125855 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:34 am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina > > When there is seeing, cittas rooted rooted in lobha (attachment), > dosa (aversion) or moha (ignorance) may arise almost immediately. > When we are carried away by our defilements we are forgetful of the > different realities that appear. We are mostly forgetful of visible > object or seeing; then right understanding is not being developed. Ph: This and what follows, so very valuable, thank you. I have lost interest in many or most aspects of Dhamma - tenporarily, I hope, we'll see - but seeing and visible object, hearing and sound etc, and the proliferation that arises from them, I always appreciate being brought back to that. In my current opinion this is the arena/field in which bhavana will or will not develop for busy worldlings, deep topics such as D.O are way beyond us. But of course that is akusala thinking, a form of mana... Phil > Visible object appears time and again, also now, but we are so > absorbed in the details of what we see that we forget to be mindful. > Visible object is only what appears through the eyes, nothing else. > We may believe that we have to do something special in order to know > visible object, but this is not so. We may worry that there is > thinking about visible object instead of awareness of it, but are > there not also moments that there isn't any thinking, just the > appearance of what is visible? While our eyes are open are there not > moments of seeing or is there thinking all the time? If there were no > seeing we could not think of what is seen. We think about the details > of what we see and we pay attention to different colours, but these > moments are different from just seeing, the experience of what > appears through the eyes. When there are conditions for the arising > of sati it can be aware of only one reality at a time, it may be > visible object, seeing, feeling or any other reality. It depends on > conditions of what reality there is mindfulness. When visible object > appears it should be realized as just visible object, not something > or somebody. There is no India, no Balrampur, no Raja's Guesthouse in > the visible object. > > Our pilgrimage was very fruitful in many ways. The goal of the > journey was paying respect to the Buddha who taught the Dhamma out of > compassion and, thus, there were many opportunities for kusala > cittas. At the holy places we were thinking of the Buddha's teachings > and his words reminded us to consider and investigate nåma and rúpa. > > -------- > > Nina. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125856 From: Ken O Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:47 am Subject: Satipatthana 5 - Contemplation of the Body 1 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all Dispeller of Delusion, pg 274 1027. Herein, kãye (“in the body”) [means] in the material body (rtipakJye); for the material body is here intended as a “body” in the sense of the collection of things consisting of the various limbs and the head hair and so on like the “body” of elephants or the “body” of chariots and so on. 1028. And as in the sense of a collection, so in the sense of “origin” (ãya) of the “vile” (kucchita); for also “this is the origin (Jya) of the vile (kucchita), of the most disgusting” is “body” (kãya). The “origin”is the place of arising. Herein, this is the word meaning: “they originate from that” is “origin”. What originate? The vile head-hairs, etc. Thus “the origin of the vile head-hairs, etc.” is “body” (kayo). 1029. KãyÀnupassi <193.2> (“contemplating the body”): one whose nature (sila) is to contemplate the body; or one who is contemplating the body. And after saying kaye (“in the body”) the taking up of the body again for the second time [with the words] kãyÀnupassi (“contemplating the body”) should be understood as done for the purpose of(1) defining [the contemplation] as unmixed and (2) breaking up the compact, (3) and so on. 1030. (1) By that [statement that] “in the body he does not contemplate feelings or contemplate the mind or contemplate mental objects, but only contemplates the body in the body”, [which is the] pointing out of only the one who practices contemplation of the body in the basis (vatthu) called the body, the “defining of the contemplation as unmixed” is pointed out. 1031. (2) Likewise [by showing that] “in the body he does not contemplate any one thing apart from the various limbs, and he does not contemplate any woman or man as apart from the headhair, body-hair, etc.; and in the body which has head-hair, bodyhair, etc. and is called the collection of primary and derived [materiality] he does not contemplate any one thing as apart from primary and derived [materiality]; but rather he contemplates the collection of the various limbs like one who contemplates the components ofa chariot; he contemplates the collection of head-hair, body-hair, etc. like one contemplating the constituent parts of a city, and he contemplates the collection of primary and derived [materiality] like one who pulls apart the last rolls of a plantain trunk, like one who opens an empty fist”, and by [this] seeing in its various aspects of the basis (vatthu) called “the body” as only a collection, the “breaking up of the compact” is pointed out. For here no “body” or “woman” or “man” or anything else at all is seen as apart from the aforesaid collection. But in respect of that very aforesaid mere collection of things, beings conceive such and such wrong beliefs. 1032. Hence the Ancients said: “What one sees, that is not seen; what is seen one does not see; Unseeing, the fool is fettered fast, and, being fettered, is not freed”. 1033. (3) “For the purpose of breaking up the compact and so on” was said. And here by the expression “and so on” the following meaning should be understood. For this [individual] is contemplating only the body in this body, and is not contemplating anything else. What is meant? Unlike those who contemplate water in a waterless mirage he does not contemplate the permanent, the pleasant, the self and the beautiful in this body which is impermanent, painful, non-self and foul; but rather he contemplates the body. “He is one who contemplates the collection in its impermanent, painful, non-self and foul aspects” is what is meant. KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125857 From: Ken O Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:49 am Subject: Satipatthana 5 - Contemplation of the Body 2 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all Dispeller of Delusion pg 275 1034. Or alternatively the meaning of “contemplating the body in the body” should be regarded in this way because of the contemplation in this very body of all that body which is stated in the Mahasatipatthana-suttanta in that portion which begins with [the section on] respiration, namely: ‘Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest ... mindful he breathes in,’ etc. and which ends with [the section on] ‘bones become dust’ (D ii 291 if.) and of all that body which is stated in the Patisambhida [by the passage]: “Here someone contemplates as impermanent the earth body ... the water body ... the fire body ... the air body ... the head-hair body ... the body-hair body ... the outer-skin body ... the inner-skin body the flesh body ... the blood body ... the sinew body ... the bone body ... the marrow body” (Ps ii 232). 1035. Or alternatively, because of the non-contemplation of anything at all in the body to be taken as “I” or “mine”, and because of the contemplation of this or that collection of different things such as that beginning with head-hair and body-hair, the meaning should be regarded as “contemplating in the body the body called ‘the collection of things beginning with the head-hair”. 1036. Furthermore, because of the contemplation in this body of the body called the collection of all aspects beginning with the characteristic of impermanence which have been handed down in the Patisambhida successively in the passage beginning: “He contemplates [it] as impermanent, not as permanent” (Ps ii 232), the meaning of “contemplating the body in the body” should be regarded thus, too. For this bhikkhu who has entered upon the way of contemplation of the body in the body, who contemplates this body by way of the seven contemplations beginning with the contemplation of impermanence; who “contemplates [it] as impermanent, not as permanent; contemplates [it] as painful, not as pleasant; contemplates [it] as non-self, not as self; feels revulsion, does not delight; he causes fading away [of greed], does not inflame it; he causes cessation, does not arouse; he relinquishes, does not cling” (Ps ii 232). It should be understood that “contemplating [it] as impermanent, he abandons the perception of permanence; contemplating it as painful, he abandons the perception of pleasure; contemplating it as non-self, he abandons the perception of self; feeling revulsion, he abandons delight; [his greed] fading away, he abandons greed; causing cessation, he abandons arousing; relinquishing, he abandons clinging” (Ps ii 232). KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125858 From: Ken O Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:59 am Subject: Satipatthana 5 - Contemplation of the Body 3 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all This is the explanation to the Ancient said in the earlier email on Satipattana 5 - Contemplation of the Body 1 Commentary to Mindfulness <> Some notes on compactness - Commentary to the Girimananda Sutta (wheel publication) pg 9 <<(ii) Contemplation of No Self is the contemplation (perception) of no-self, which grasps the characteristic of no-self, called insusceptibility of mastery, in the five aggregates. These are shown in the form of the bases, and they are suffering in the sense of oppression.  But the characteristic of no-self fails to be apparent because it is concealed by compactness owing to resolution of compactness not being kept in mind. But the resolution of compactness is effected by resolving it into its various elements-and distinguishing each one thus: The earth (solidity) element is one, the water (cohesion) element is another, and so on; and by recognising that there is compactness as a mass, compactness as a function and compactness as an object. When this has been done, the characteristic of no-self becomes apparent in its true nature. But when material and immaterial states (states) of mind and matter have arisen mutually supporting each other, their compactness as a mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to compression owing to belief in their unity. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although differences in the functions of such states exist, they are taken as one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although differences in the ways in which states that have objects make them their objects exist, they are taken as one. But when these compactnesses have been resolved by means of knowledge into their elements, they are seen to disintegrate, like foam subjected to pressure by the hand. They are mere phenomena that occur due to conditions, and are void. Thus it is that the characteristic of no-self becomes fully evident. (Yisuddhi Magga p. 640 and Paramattha manjusa).>> KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125859 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:09 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. dhammasaro Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Howdy, On killing... please clarify... thanks... N: They are contrary to his brahmafaring, to the purpose of monkhood. It depends how grave his transgressions are. He may confess them to other monks and be determined not to transgress again, be remorseful. Or if the transgression is very grave like killing, he is no longer considered to be a monk.yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck snip... > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > From: vangorko@... > Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 16:17:13 +0200 > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. > > Dear Rob E, > Op 7-aug-2012, om 5:34 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > -------- > N: They are contrary to his brahmafaring, to the purpose of monkhood. It depends how grave his transgressions are. He may confess them to > other monks and be determined not to transgress again, be remorseful. Or if the transgression is very grave like killing, he is no longer > considered to be a monk. > Nina. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125860 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:28 am Subject: RE: [dsg] First-Ever White House Conference of Dharmic Faiths dhammasaro Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Thank you. I missed this on his blog. yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, chuck To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: cjforsyth1@... An interesting article on Bhikkhu Bodhi's Blog - First-Ever White House Conference of Dharmic Faiths Until recently conferences on interfaith cooperation in the U.S. have almost always centered on the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Yet over the past forty years America has become a much more diversified and pluralistic society. The relaxing of restrictions on immigration, followed by the post-war upheavals in Southeast Asia in the 1970s, has dramatically transformed our population. Large numbers of Americans now have religious roots that go back, not to the deserts of Judea and Arabia, but to the plains, mountains, and villages of ancient India. For convenience, these are grouped together under the designation "the Dharmic faiths." They include Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, and Sikhs, and their national origins range from Pakistan to Japan, from Burma to Vietnam, and from Mongolia to Sri Lanka. Not all are immigrants. At least one whole generation of people of Asian descent has been born and raised in America, and think of themselves principally as Americans following a Dharmic religion. [……….] http://buddhistglobalrelief.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/first-ever-white-house-conf\ erence-of-dharmic-faiths-2/ <...> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125861 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:49 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125846) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: I'd still like to know whether you accept the 2-fold classification of wholesome conduct given in the texts (and as explained by Bhikkhu Bodhi), namely, (a) wholesome conduct that leads to enlightenment and (b) wholesome conduct that leads only to pleasant results within the round of rebirths. > > > > If you do, then are you saying that all sila falls within (a)? What are the kinds of kusala that would fall within (b) but not within (a), as you see it? > > RE: Well, I don't want to sound like a politician even though I live in Washington, D.C., but probably for me to answer that fully I'd have to study a few suttas and/or commentaries more carefully. I can explain my general view which I believe is supported by scriptures I have seen, but I don't think I'm quite qualified to determine exactly what aspects of sila and kusala/akusala actions lead directly or indirectly to either support or promulgate development of panna, and which are merely meritorious without having *any* relevance to the path. > =============== J: My point was just that the summary given by Bhikkhu Bodhi reflects the orthodox Theravadin interpretation of the teachings, so it deserves our consideration. And if I could elaborate further, that interpretation holds that only moments of actual awareness or insight are considered to be the actual development of the NEP. > =============== > RE: I think the way Nina puts it and the quotes she gives from K. Sujin in this regard are quite satisfying in this area - that sila and the perfections are always important and should be cultivated at all times and that they do give a support to the development of wisdom - at least I think that connection is made. Otherwise, why would sila be so important? I don't think that you would say that the Buddha gave teachings that were just to have a more pleasant life where everyone is nicer to each other and suffer a bit less, but that his teachings are of relevance to wisdom and release. So I think the teachings on sila have relevance, at least as supporting factors, but I don't have the full story. > =============== J: I have no argument with the idea of sila as a *supporting factor for* (rather than a *factor of*) the NEP. As I've said on many occasions in our discussions, all kinds of `lesser' kusala are a support for the kusala that constitutes the development of the path. But there's the question of exactly in what way other kusala is a supporting factor - we need to be specific. Furthermore, I think you'll find that the teachings on sila are almost invariably given in the context of the development of awareness/insight, and not for the sake of sila alone. Happy to look at any passage that you particularly rely on in coming to the view you do on sila. > =============== > RE: What I do think is that the path itself includes actions in the world that emanate from kusala mental factors, such as the desire to practice metta, to avoid killing and to do things that develop refined behavior and thought and do not create akusala kamma. And I think that such actions create conditions for development of understanding. > =============== J: Well it's a big jump from the idea of sila as a supporting factor for the path to the idea here that "the path itself includes actions in the world that emanate from kusala mental factors, such as the desire to practice metta, to avoid killing and to do things that develop refined behavior and thought". The assumption that the desire to practice metta, do good deeds, etc involves `kusala mental factors' is I think a dubious if not mistaken one. There is no suggestion in that texts that the desire to have kusala is itself kusala. As I see it, the wish to have more kusala is almost certainly going to be driven by the desire for results and/or the idea that kusala can be induced by following certains specific steps (such as, desire/intention, then practice, then `proper' kusala). And of course the actions that `emanate from' desires/wishes/intentions that are not kusala cannot themselves be kusala. Secondly, regarding the statement that "such actions create conditions for development of understanding", *creating conditions for* seems quite a different connection to, and a big jump from(!), *being a supporting factor for*. As I said, we need to be specific about what the Buddha said regarding the manner in which different factors support the development of the path. > =============== > RE: We had an interesting quote lately where it was said that if one practiced various bad deeds it could lead to a condition in which one would not have access to the Dhamma, so that is one example of such a principle. > =============== J: I'm not sure which quote you have in mind here (sometimes I wonder if we're referring to the same list :-)), but I do know there is no principle in the teachings that good sila leads to *better access to the Dhamma*. For that better access to happen there must have been the cultivation of the path in previous lives, resulting in the present life to association with the right persons (aka `the voice of another'), hearing the Dhamma explained in a way that is meaningful for us, etc. These are the kinds of factors that "create conditions for" the development of understanding, and this connection is specifically set out in the suttas. > =============== > > J: Regarding "the higher development of elements of the NEP ... are not confined to the moment of enlightenment", I've never suggested that the factors of the NEP arise only at the moment of enlightenment. What the texts say is that at the moment of enlightenment *all 8* of the NEP factors co-arise, while at mundane path moments (i.e., moments of awareness/insight) *only some* of those factors (but always including the factor of Right View). > > RE: Well that's an interesting clarification which I appreciate. Now that I understand what you think about that point, it makes a lot more sense. :-) [Note to self: clarify what someone is actually saying in future.] > =============== J: I'm glad we've got that clarified, after all these years!! Perhaps you could go back and re-read my past posts to you with this clarification in mind :-)) BTW, it's not so much what *I think* as what *the orthodox Theravada position* is. Another clarification to be kept in mind, please ... > =============== > > J: As far as your remarks about daily life are concerned, I agree that awareness/insight is to be developed in daily life. > > RE: That is great - now let's see if I ever develop any! :-) > =============== J: It begins by hearing about dhammas and their significance (as explained in the texts) :-)) Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125862 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, >>S: Hope this clarifies. So "bodily actions" refers in this case (of kamma >patha) to the body-door (i.e the kaaya vi~n~natti) as being the gateway or >means by which the kamma (cetana) is expressed. The same applies to "verbal >actions". > >============================ >H:Yes, kamma is always (and only) cetana, but that is not so of actions >pursuant to that intention , many of these being physical. ... S: Of course, the rupas such as the intimations (bodily and speech) conditioned by the cittas are physical. As I indicated in the quotes, the characteristic of kamma-patha itself refers to kamma (cetana) with the potency to bring results. "S: note that in all cases, the kamma is the cetana. It just depends on the strength of that cetana and other factors as to whether it becomes kamma-patha." Details of when that kamma is kamma-patha are given, such as the kamma while killing, lying and so on. As discussed and as we know, not all akusala cittas have this potency of kamma that can bring results. Most kusala cittas also don't have the potency to bring results either. Thx for helping me to consider further. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125863 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:16 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana 1 - What is it? sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ken O, Good detail about the 3 meanings of satipatthana in the quotes you provide #125611 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Dispeller of Delusion pg 270 > 1011.  Satipatthaana (˜foundations of mindfulness): there are three kinds of foundation of mindfulness, (1) the domain of mindfulness (satigocaro), (2) the Master's threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification as regards the entry of the disciples [on the way of practice] (tidhaa pa.tipannesu saavakesu Satthuno pa.tighaanunayaviitivattataa), and (3) mindfulness (sati). S: In other words: 1) the object of mindfulness, 2) the way followed by the noble disciples and 3) sati (mindfulness) itself and associated eightfold path factors. Thanks again for sharing the quotes. Even if we have read the detail before, it's good to read and consider again and again. Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125864 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/10/2012 4:31:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, >>S: Hope this clarifies. So "bodily actions" refers in this case (of kamma >patha) to the body-door (i.e the kaaya vi~n~natti) as being the gateway or >means by which the kamma (cetana) is expressed. The same applies to "verbal >actions". > >============================ >H:Yes, kamma is always (and only) cetana, but that is not so of actions >pursuant to that intention , many of these being physical. ... S: Of course, the rupas such as the intimations (bodily and speech) conditioned by the cittas are physical. As I indicated in the quotes, the characteristic of kamma-patha itself refers to kamma (cetana) with the potency to bring results. "S: note that in all cases, the kamma is the cetana. It just depends on the strength of that cetana and other factors as to whether it becomes kamma-patha." Details of when that kamma is kamma-patha are given, such as the kamma while killing, lying and so on. As discussed and as we know, not all akusala cittas have this potency of kamma that can bring results. Most kusala cittas also don't have the potency to bring results either. Thx for helping me to consider further. Metta ===================================== I found a site which, in the wholesome case (only), puts forward your understanding of 'kammapatha' as a species of kamma . There is the following: kusalakammapatha: [_kusala_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#kusala) +_kamma_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#kamma) +patha] paths of advantageous/ meritorious action. There are ten kusala-kamma-pathas, classified under bodily, verbal and mental. They are thus described by the Buddha at _AN 10.176_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/anguttara/10/an10-176.html#kusalakammapatha) . The three bodily kusala-kamma-pathas are: 1. abstaining from _pāṇātipā ta_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#panatipata) 2. from _adinnādāna_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#adinnadana) 3. from _kāmesu-micchā-cāra_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#kamesumicchacara) The four verbal kusala-kamma-pathas are: 4. abstaining from _musā-vā da_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#musavada) 5. from _pisuṇa-vācā_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#pisunavaca) 6. from _pharusa-vāca_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#pharusavaca) 7. from _samphappalāpa_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#samphappalapa) The three mental kusala-kamma-pathas are: 8. abstaining from _abhijjha_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#abhijjha) 9. from _byāpāda_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#byapada) 10. from _micchā-diá¹­á¹­hi_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#micchaditthi) So, it seems that the term 'kusala kammapatha' refers to kamma that produces (or is) abstaining from various actions, some mental and some physical; the abstentions are instances of cetana. However, 'akusala kammapatha' is defined, not in terms of promotion (or willing) of unwholesome actions, but *as those actions*, and not all of them are kamma, to wit: akusalakammapatha: [_akusala_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#akusala) +_kamma_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#kamma) +patha] disadvantageous paths of action. There are ten akusala-kamma-pathas, classified under bodily, verbal and mental. They are thus discribed by the Buddha at _AN 10.176_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/anguttara/10/an10-176.html#akusalakammapatha\ ) . The three bodily akusala-kamma-pathas are: 1. _pāṇātipāta_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#panatipata) 2. _adinnādāna_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#adinnadana) 3. _kāmesu-micchā-cāra_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#kamesumicchacara) The four verbal akusala-kamma-pathas are: 4. _musā-vāda_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#musavada) 5. _pisuṇa-vācā_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#pisunavaca) 6. _pharusa-vāca_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#pharusavaca) 7. _samphappalāpa_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#samphappalapa) The three mental akusala-kamma-pathas are: 8. _abhijjha_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#abhijjha) 9. _byāpāda_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#byapada) 10. _micchā-diá¹­á¹­hi_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html#micchaditthi) So, this site seems to be in partial agreement with you. With metta, Howard P. S. The site is _http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html_ (http://www.buddha-vacana.org/glossary.html) Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125865 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:53 pm Subject: AN 10.176 (Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life) upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi again, Sarah - The material in this sutta does seem to bear out the position on kammapatha given on the web site I just wrote about. Please see _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.176.than.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.176.than.html) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125866 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:40 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Vassa Candle Festival/Parade In Thailand dhammasaro Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Good friend yawares1, et al Warm thanks... in spirit, I too observe the three month "Rains Retreat" as a lay person... part of it was, last Saturday, the complete shaving of my beard, mustache (moustache) and eyebrows... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: yawares1@... HAPPY VASSA DAY to all members! This Vassa Day I would like to show you the beautiful Candle festival/parade in Ubon Ratchathani,Thailand. I had a chance to watch such a wonderful candle parade only once in my life standing in the hot sunlight on the street with my pretty Thai umbrella: http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... chiang+mai http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... C+thailand Thanks to youtube I can watch it again and again in my cool computer room. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rtoLXmrUg4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NwJzU9R ... ure=relmfu <...> Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125867 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Maipenrai Dhammasaro, Op 10-aug-2012, om 0:09 heeft Maipenrai Dhammasaro het volgende geschreven: > On killing... please clarify... thanks... ----- N: Killing is very grave and the monk commits this is no longer a monk. Anything else you want to be clarified? ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125868 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:47 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 5. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, The Dhamma discussions were most helpful for clearing up misunderstandings about satipatthåna. It is mostly clinging to sati which causes one to deviate from the right Path. We should not forget that sati is anattå; it arises when there are conditions and it is beyond control. Later on someone told me that he, after his return to Bangkok, hardly had any sati. However, there should be no regret. Who can control the conditions for the arising of realities, and, thus, also for the arising of sati? The conditions for sati of the eightfold Path are association with the right friend, listening to the Dhamma and considering it, applying the Dhamma and also, seeing the value of sati in one’s life. Not everyone wants to associate with the right person and not everyone is ready to listen to the Dhamma. Thus, also these conditions are beyond control. During our pilgrimage we had many opportunities to associate with the right person and to listen to the Dhamma, but would this pilgrimage itself have been possible without the right conditions for it? Could we control those conditions? Some people may think that being at the holy places is in itself a condition for mindfulness. However, if one goes to the holy places without having listened to the Dhamma as it is explained by the right person, these places cannot remind us to be aware. We are bound to cling to sati, but having a great deal of sati without right understanding is not the aim of vipassanå. Right understanding is the most important factor. We all have accumulated both akusala and kusala; when there are conditions nobody can prevent them from arising, they are anattå. How can we expect that after our pilgrimage there will be sati all the time and no more defilements? When we see that also our defilements are anattå, not self, only phenomena arising because of conditions, we shall have less clinging to sati and less regret when there is lack of sati. When regret arises we should remember that it is only a conditioned reality. Regret is not self, it is a type of nåma. We can learn that our life is only nåma and rúpa. ----------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125869 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, Op 10-aug-2012, om 13:46 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I found a site which, in the wholesome case (only), puts forward your > understanding of 'kammapatha' as a species of kamma . There is the > following: > > kusalakammapatha: ------ N: Long ago I asked Kh Sujin. As for kusala, this is mostly kamma patha that can produce a pleasant result. As the site you quoted indicates: the ten bases of meritorious deeds. Only, she gave an example of wishing to give, thinking of giving but not actually coming to the deed of giving. Then it is a very weak kusala citta. As to akusala citta, this does not always have the strength of kusala kamma patha. In the Expositor, certain factors are necessary to make it into akusala kamma patha. Also, a little attachment to a pleasant object is not akusala kamma patha. We discussed this before with Rob M. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125870 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard For those of us who lack patience to follow links, is your conclusion that kamma patha is cetana in the kusala case but to a different extent conventional bodily/speech action in the akusala case? I have to assume that such a theory (no matter how it is supported by sutta referencing) would be immediately refuted by the Abhidhamma texts which are the arbiter(?) at DSG.(Or should be.) But if those texts support you this will be of *huge* import, thanks for bringing it up. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125871 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Thank you, Nina. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/10/2012 9:56:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 10-aug-2012, om 13:46 heeft _upasaka@..._ (mailto:upasaka@...) het volgende geschreven: > I found a site which, in the wholesome case (only), puts forward your > understanding of 'kammapatha' as a species of kamma . There is the > following: > > kusalakammapatha: ------ N: Long ago I asked Kh Sujin. As for kusala, this is mostly kamma patha that can produce a pleasant result. As the site you quoted indicates: the ten bases of meritorious deeds. Only, she gave an example of wishing to give, thinking of giving but not actually coming to the deed of giving. Then it is a very weak kusala citta. As to akusala citta, this does not always have the strength of kusala kamma patha. In the Expositor, certain factors are necessary to make it into akusala kamma patha. Also, a little attachment to a pleasant object is not akusala kamma patha. We discussed this before with Rob M. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125872 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Phil - In a message dated 8/10/2012 9:57:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Howard For those of us who lack patience to follow links, is your conclusion that kamma patha is cetana in the kusala case but to a different extent conventional bodily/speech action in the akusala case? ------------------------------------------------------ HCW: From that material, the kusala case is a refraining from bad actions, and hence cetana, but the akusala case is the bad actions themselves, many of which are rupas - or so it seems. ----------------------------------------------------- I have to assume that such a theory (no matter how it is supported by sutta referencing) would be immediately refuted by the Abhidhamma texts which are the arbiter(?) at DSG.(Or should be.) But if those texts support you this will be of *huge* import, thanks for bringing it up. ------------------------------------------------------ HCW: ??? I really don't care which way it is. My interest was merely to see what is actually meant by the word 'kammapatha'. ------------------------------------------------------- Phil ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125873 From: "philip" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard Re your ??? I found the notion that a conventional act in itself could be akusala kamma patha (rather than the cetana that conditioned the rupas involved) very surprising, but in any case I am grateful to have my interest in a Dhamma issue piqued in a way that it hasn't been recently, so thanks. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125874 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, I sent your mail on to Lodewijk. He appreciated your reactions. Nina. Op 9-aug-2012, om 16:34 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > When we are carried away by our defilements we are forgetful of the > > different realities that appear. We are mostly forgetful of visible > > object or seeing; then right understanding is not being developed. > > Ph: This and what follows, so very valuable, thank you. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125875 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Phil - In a message dated 8/10/2012 2:52:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Howard Re your ??? I found the notion that a conventional act in itself could be akusala kamma patha (rather than the cetana that conditioned the rupas involved) very surprising, but in any case I am grateful to have my interest in a Dhamma issue piqued in a way that it hasn't been recently, so thanks. -------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Well, thank you. That's nice to hear. ------------------------------------------------- Phil ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125876 From: "philip" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello Nina > I sent your mail on to Lodewijk. Thank you. Let me write some more, it is a rainy afternoon at tge old country house, my last day here, so many powerfully nostalgiac sights, smells, sounds (now the rain on the balcony) that it can be overwhelming. Some people stop coming here, they find the nostalgia overwhelming and they get depressed. > > When we are carried away by our defilements we are forgetful of the > > > different realities that appear. We are mostly forgetful of visible > > > object or seeing; then right understanding is not being developed. > > > > Ph: Because of our deeply accumulated defilements, we love our favourite places and favourite people so intensely, even as our realization of their evanescence deepens, we love them more and more, our hearts ache with so much love for them that it can become oppressive. Where is the lightness and gaiety with which we once enjoyed people and things? It seems experience, which should be such a wise teacher, obliges us to love more and more, like it or not. And then there arises reflection on Dhamma, on seeing and visible object, on hearing and sound, on knowing nama from rupa, and there is a shifting of the burden, a lightening. The Buddha saw deeply into the dissatsfactory nature of this endless cycle of attaching and departure, and taught the way out. We have cried a sea of tears for the loved ones we have lost through countless lifetimes, and had many wonderful joys with them too, ennobling joys through which the rare gift of our human birth was fulfilled. And now we see the way out, beyond the sorrows and the joys, and it is now and now and now that the way is forged, in moments of seeing understood, moments of hearing understood, it is now and niw and now that panna and detachment develop, and we come closer and closer to letting go for good. But now back to feeling sad and nostalgiac, it has been accmumulated for countless lifetimes, so it is natural for it to continue to arise, for panna to understand. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125877 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:29 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. dhammasaro Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Good friends all, The typical response I get here!!! In the Tipitaka-vinaya, there are vast differences in killing!!! Such as unintentional killing of an insect when sweeping the temple grounds and the intentional killing of a human!!! Yes, killing is killing!!! But, there are degrees of killing!!! I know!!! I was a monk!!! I killed!!! I confessed!!! I was not removed as a monk!!! Such gloss is very mis-leading!!! Down right wrong!!! Good friend Nina, yet again, a very gentle and serious request. Please stay with the minute stuff you think you know!!! Or, please study the complete Tipitaka-vinaya!!! Respectful thanks. yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: vangorko@... Op 10-aug-2012, om 0:09 heeft Maipenrai Dhammasaro het volgende geschreven: > On killing... please clarify... thanks... ----- N: Killing is very grave and the monk commits this is no longer a monk. Anything else you want to be clarified? ------ <......> Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125878 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:10 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. > S: Kamma patha is always mental - it refers specifically to cetana cetasika (intention/kamma) that is of the degree that it conditions particular kinds of speech or acts through the body, i.e rupas conditioned by those akusala cittas. So the rupas that arise are the result of how strong the akusala cittas are. And the akusala cittas cause the kamma. ... > Same with dosa, intentions to harm and so on - all dhammas can only be known when they arise... In the midst of action, I guess one can focus on the mental qualities that accompany the act. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125879 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:21 pm Subject: Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Then he forgets the goal for which he has gone forth: arahatship, > the eradication of all defilements. Is it possible to say in brief what is the relationship between satipatthana and the eradication of the defilements? Jon has seemed to suggest to me that eradication of defilements [development of sila] is kusala but not a condition for the path of understanding. I would be interested to know in what way you see them related, if they are. > All the rules have to be seen in > connection with satipa.t.thaana. The Vinaya and satipa.t.thaana > should not be separated. Satipa.t.thaana is not mentioned all the > time, but it is implied. > You ask about conventional reasons. Here is a text about the purpose > of the Patimokkha rules: > We read about the purposes of the rules the monks had to observe in > the "Gradual Sayings" (Book of the Twos, Ch XVII, § 1, Results): > > Monks, it was to bring about these pairs of results that the > Observances were enjoined on his disciples by the Tathågata. What two? > The excellence and well-being of the Order... > The control of ill-conditioned monks and the comfort of good monks... > The restraint, in this very life, of the åsavas, guilt, faults, fears > and unprofitable states: and the protection against the same in a > future life. > Out of compassion for householders, and to uproot the factions of the > evilly disposed... > To give confidence to believers, and for the betterment of believers... > To establish true Dhamma, for the support of the Discipline... > Monks, it was to bring about these pairs of results.... I see that these are all very positive aims - but I don't see how they intersect with satipatthana. I would be very interested to know what you see in those meritorious results that supports the development of satipatthana. > > R: Do the transgressions interfere with bhavana? > -------- > N: They are contrary to his brahmafaring, to the purpose of monkhood. > It depends how grave his transgressions are. He may confess them to > other monks and be determined not to transgress again, be remorseful. > Or if the transgression is very grave like killing, he is no longer > considered to be a monk. Would this directly stop his development of satipatthana, or would it depend on what other accumulations he had? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125880 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:56 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: I'd still like to know whether you accept the 2-fold classification of wholesome conduct given in the texts (and as explained by Bhikkhu Bodhi), namely, (a) wholesome conduct that leads to enlightenment and (b) wholesome conduct that leads only to pleasant results within the round of rebirths. > > > > > > If you do, then are you saying that all sila falls within (a)? What are the kinds of kusala that would fall within (b) but not within (a), as you see it? > > > > RE: Well, I don't want to sound like a politician even though I live in Washington, D.C., but probably for me to answer that fully I'd have to study a few suttas and/or commentaries more carefully. I can explain my general view which I believe is supported by scriptures I have seen, but I don't think I'm quite qualified to determine exactly what aspects of sila and kusala/akusala actions lead directly or indirectly to either support or promulgate development of panna, and which are merely meritorious without having *any* relevance to the path. > > =============== > > J: My point was just that the summary given by Bhikkhu Bodhi reflects the orthodox Theravadin interpretation of the teachings, so it deserves our consideration. > > And if I could elaborate further, that interpretation holds that only moments of actual awareness or insight are considered to be the actual development of the NEP. Well, first of all I still don't accept the idea that this is *the* major traditional interpretation of Theravada. Or that should be considered *the* Orthodox interpretation of the teachings. I think that roughly, leaving aside as usual the vastness of my ignorance, there are two major Orthodox interpretations in Theravada, one that is based in Abhidhamma and one that is based in sutta. That doesn't mean that the one doesn't take cognizance of the other or vice versa, but surely you know that a very substantial portion of the Theravadin community throughout history sees the path as involving the development of sila in conventional activities and everyday life, the development of jhana leading to deep peace and equanimity, and involving the development of wisdom through meditation. That is one big gigantic Orthodox traditional interpretation of the teachings. The other one is the commentarial tradition which sees the path in terms of dhammas and dismisses conventional actions and objects as not really existent in their own right. I don't think you can fairly say that one is more Orthodox or more traditional than the other, but rather than one believes that one of those two ways of looking at the teachings is right in your view and the other one is mistaken. This exists within Theravada not outside of it or between Theravada and some other school. Secondly, regarding "only moments of insight" represent the development of the NEP, I think that is a very restrictive point of view. It doesn't allow for all the influences and supports that cause those moments of insight to arise. I don't see any great value in separating actual moments of insight from the stepping-stones and accumulations that lead to them. To me that just doesn't make sense. It makes it sound as though such moments are self-producing out of thin air, which of course is not at all true, and would be the opposite of dependent origination and the cycle of DO. I don't see one would want to isolate "result" from "process" in such a way. It seems extremely monadic to me. It's like saying that only the moments when you get an "A" on a test are "school." Everything else has nothing to do with "school." All the moments of learning, almost learning, being in class, doing homework, getting bad grades, *and* getting "A"s are all school, not just the "A"s. It's part of this tendency to short-change the importance of the process and focus only on the result as if it pops out of thin air, and then idealize it. Anyway, that's how it seems to me. > > =============== > > RE: I think the way Nina puts it and the quotes she gives from K. Sujin in this regard are quite satisfying in this area - that sila and the perfections are always important and should be cultivated at all times and that they do give a support to the development of wisdom - at least I think that connection is made. Otherwise, why would sila be so important? I don't think that you would say that the Buddha gave teachings that were just to have a more pleasant life where everyone is nicer to each other and suffer a bit less, but that his teachings are of relevance to wisdom and release. So I think the teachings on sila have relevance, at least as supporting factors, but I don't have the full story. > > =============== > > J: I have no argument with the idea of sila as a *supporting factor for* (rather than a *factor of*) the NEP. As I've said on many occasions in our discussions, all kinds of `lesser' kusala are a support for the kusala that constitutes the development of the path. But there's the question of exactly in what way other kusala is a supporting factor - we need to be specific. Well I'd certainly like to know about that, if there is a way to explain it or a link that you know of. > Furthermore, I think you'll find that the teachings on sila are almost invariably given in the context of the development of awareness/insight, and not for the sake of sila alone. Happy to look at any passage that you particularly rely on in coming to the view you do on sila. Actually I think you have stated my view right there - that sila is a support for the development of understanding/awareness, and that sila should be developed int he context of development of insight, not for itself alone. That's what I've been saying all along, while I thought you were saying that sila is in a different category and not related to the kusala that leads to development of panna. > > =============== > > RE: What I do think is that the path itself includes actions in the world that emanate from kusala mental factors, such as the desire to practice metta, to avoid killing and to do things that develop refined behavior and thought and do not create akusala kamma. And I think that such actions create conditions for development of understanding. > > =============== > > J: Well it's a big jump from the idea of sila as a supporting factor for the path to the idea here that "the path itself includes actions in the world that emanate from kusala mental factors, such as the desire to practice metta, to avoid killing and to do things that develop refined behavior and thought". To me, saying whether something "is part of the path" or is a "support for the development of the path" is sort of just a matter of nomenclature. The important question to me is whether they are related or not, part of the same process on some level or not. I can accept the idea that sila supports up to a point and then higher factors of knowledge and direct understanding have to take over for the higher levels of insight, but that is including and beyond sila, not without it. > The assumption that the desire to practice metta, do good deeds, etc involves `kusala mental factors' is I think a dubious if not mistaken one. There is no suggestion in that texts that the desire to have kusala is itself kusala. As I see it, the wish to have more kusala is almost certainly going to be driven by the desire for results and/or the idea that kusala can be induced by following certains specific steps (such as, desire/intention, then practice, then `proper' kusala). My main point of emphasis was not "desire," but the arising of kusala cetana that would lead to all kinds of kusala expressions. I wasn't implying that desire in the absence of kusala was a positive factor. > And of course the actions that `emanate from' desires/wishes/intentions that are not kusala cannot themselves be kusala. I think this is a sidetrack based on a poor choice of words on my part. > Secondly, regarding the statement that "such actions create conditions for development of understanding", *creating conditions for* seems quite a different connection to, and a big jump from(!), *being a supporting factor for*. As I said, we need to be specific about what the Buddha said regarding the manner in which different factors support the development of the path. I'm not knowledgeable enough to make such a distinction. I would probably need some more education in the specific distinctions between creating conditions and being supporting conditions. That's too subtle a distinction for me, probably due to ignorance. > > =============== > > RE: We had an interesting quote lately where it was said that if one practiced various bad deeds it could lead to a condition in which one would not have access to the Dhamma, so that is one example of such a principle. > > =============== > > J: I'm not sure which quote you have in mind here (sometimes I wonder if we're referring to the same list :-)), It was from a Ken O. quote from the Illuminator? commentary or else part of Nina's post on sila that I referred to before. I can try to find it - wish me luck. My mind is not what it should be in keeping track of everything... I don't just make stuff up though, on that you can depend... :-) > but I do know there is no principle in the teachings that good sila leads to *better access to the Dhamma*. Well, the idea was that if one did enough evil things to get reborn in a realm in which the Dhamma was not able to be accessed... That sort of thing... > For that better access to happen there must have been the cultivation of the path in previous lives, resulting in the present life to association with the right persons (aka `the voice of another'), hearing the Dhamma explained in a way that is meaningful for us, etc. These are the kinds of factors that "create conditions for" the development of understanding, and this connection is specifically set out in the suttas. > > > =============== > > > J: Regarding "the higher development of elements of the NEP ... are not confined to the moment of enlightenment", I've never suggested that the factors of the NEP arise only at the moment of enlightenment. What the texts say is that at the moment of enlightenment *all 8* of the NEP factors co-arise, while at mundane path moments (i.e., moments of awareness/insight) *only some* of those factors (but always including the factor of Right View). > > > > RE: Well that's an interesting clarification which I appreciate. Now that I understand what you think about that point, it makes a lot more sense. :-) [Note to self: clarify what someone is actually saying in future.] > > =============== > > J: I'm glad we've got that clarified, after all these years!! Perhaps you could go back and re-read my past posts to you with this clarification in mind :-)) I will look forward to that, as conditions allow. :-))) > BTW, it's not so much what *I think* as what *the orthodox Theravada position* is. I still don't understand why you think the Abhidhamma position is the Orthodox one, when so many Theravadin sects who trace back to the original Sangha do not share that philosophy. It's certainly an important strain in the Theravadin community with equal historical roots, but perhaps not *the Orthodox view.* > Another clarification to be kept in mind, please ... That one still needs further elucidation/ratification/verification/clarification... > > =============== > > > J: As far as your remarks about daily life are concerned, I agree that awareness/insight is to be developed in daily life. > > > > RE: That is great - now let's see if I ever develop any! :-) > > =============== > > J: It begins by hearing about dhammas and their significance (as explained in the texts) :-)) Well I may have gotten started despite myself... I may very well shake my head and tell you how stupid I was several thousand lifetimes from now... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125881 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > For those of us who lack patience to follow links, is your conclusion that > kamma patha is cetana in the kusala case but to a different extent > conventional bodily/speech action in the akusala case? > ------------------------------------------------------ > HCW: > From that material, the kusala case is a refraining from bad actions, > and hence cetana, but the akusala case is the bad actions themselves, many > of which are rupas - or so it seems. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > I have to assume that such a theory (no matter how it is supported by > sutta referencing) would be immediately refuted by the Abhidhamma texts which > are the arbiter(?) at DSG.(Or should be.) But if those texts support you > this will be of *huge* import, thanks for bringing it up. > ------------------------------------------------------ > HCW: > ??? I really don't care which way it is. My interest was merely to see > what is actually meant by the word 'kammapatha'. > ------------------------------------------------------- Nice to see you on the list and dealing with an issue that is of a lot of interest to me. It seems to me that the Buddha laid out three levels of kammapatha, mental, verbal and physical [meaning actions other than speech.] This follows the idea that you can think something bad, but not say it, think it and say it, but not do something physical about it, or you can take physical action based on what you have thought and/or said. So it follows a pretty conventional pattern and makes common sense. I think it is true that there is no intentional action without cetana, and so cetana is always the root of kammapatha, but mental kammapatha is only one level of action, and is the most "interior" of the three, so it would be like being eaten away by your own negative thoughts, but not actually directly harming someone else. If you seethe with hatred you will suffer, but also at some point you may blow up and hurt someone. Then the kammapatha becomes physical kammapatha and has a whole additional level of consequences. This way of looking at kammapatha makes a lot of sense to me. The idea that exists in Abhidhamma that the cetana has to be especially strong to result in "rupas" and not just "cetana" itself [and that is why the physical kammapatha has worse results] also makes sense, and so one can look at it both in terms of dhammas that emphasize the mental factors, and in terms of everyday life. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125882 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:30 pm Subject: Satipatthan 6 - Terms - Ardent ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all Commentary to Satipatthana <> Dispeller of Delusion <<1039 Atapi ("ardent"): This illustrates the application of the energy that lays hold of the body. For because he is possessed of that energy, which is called "ardour", he is called "ardent" since it burns up defilement in the three kinds of existence.>> KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125883 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E, Op 11-aug-2012, om 5:21 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > Is it possible to say in brief what is the relationship between > satipatthana and the eradication of the defilements? > ---------- N: Through satipa.t.thaana understanding, pa~n~naa, which sees realities as they are is developed. This kind of pa~n~naa will eradicate defilements stage by stage. First the wrong view of self is eradicated, when one has become a sotaapanna, and later on the other defilements will be eradicated. So long as one takes clinging for 'my clinging' one does not see it as it is, as only a conditioned naama. If one tries to suppress it instead of knowing it as it is, there is no way leading to its eradication. --------- > > > We read about the purposes of the rules the monks had to observe in > > the "Gradual Sayings" (Book of the Twos, Ch XVII, § 1, Results): > > > > Monks, it was to bring about these pairs of results that the > > Observances were enjoined on his disciples by the Tathågata. What > two? > > The excellence and well-being of the Order... > > The control of ill-conditioned monks and the comfort of good > monks... > > The restraint, in this very life, of the åsavas, guilt, faults, > fears > > and unprofitable states: and the protection against the same in a > > future life. > > Out of compassion for householders, and to uproot the factions of > the > > evilly disposed... > > To give confidence to believers, and for the betterment of > believers... > > To establish true Dhamma, for the support of the Discipline... > > Monks, it was to bring about these pairs of results.... > > R: I see that these are all very positive aims - but I don't see > how they intersect with satipatthana. I would be very interested to > know what you see in those meritorious results that supports the > development of satipatthana. > ------ N: Satipa.t.thaana supports the monk in fulfilling his task as a monk, with all the obligations he has for the Order and as being an example for the layfollowers. He has to be aware of naama and ruupa during all his activities, in all postures, as much as he is able to. This will bear on his conduct towards his fellowmonks. For example, when he is annoyed by their speech, he realizes that the real cause of his annoyance is not the other person but his own defilements. In this way there can be restraint of anger and other defilements for him. This is for the good of the whole Sangha, and it also instills confidence in layfollowers. Satipa.t.thaana can lead to more patience towards contrarious people and difficult circumstances, such as sickness. So often the Buddha visited sick monks and after inquiring after their bodily needs he would help them to understand realities. When, for example, someone became ill during our trips to India, Kh Sujin would visit him/her immediately and speak about satipa.t.thaana. I remember that once our friend Pinna was ill, and then Kh Sujin visited her and gave her a Dhamma, talk. Several of us went along to listen as well. ------ > > > > R: Do the transgressions interfere with bhavana? > > -------- > > N: They are contrary to his brahmafaring,.. > > R: Would this directly stop his development of satipatthana, or > would it depend on what other accumulations he had? > -------- N: It all depends on the individual. We have to consider cittas from moment to moment. The development of satipa.t.thaana is not a state that is lasting, it is momentary. It is the development of direct awareness and understanding of whatever presents itself at this moment. ------- Nina. Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125884 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:47 pm Subject: Satipatthana 6 - Terms - Mindfulness and Clear Comprehension 1 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all Commentary to Satipatthana <> KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125885 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:50 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 6. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, We cannot organize our life in order to have a great deal of sati. During our journey we were reminded time and again to live more from moment to moment and to worry less about the future. We did not know what the next moment would bring, anything could happen. Our journey was full of unexpected events. For instance, we hardly ever knew what time we would arrive at the next hotel and at what time we would sleep. There were flat tires and many other reasons for delay. We did not worry about it when there would be anything to drink or to eat. The experience of objects through the senses such as bodily discomfort is actually vipåka, the result of kamma, and who can control the results of past actions? There were so many opportunities for Dhamma conversations and the development of right understanding. Is this not most important in life? If there is more understanding of the present moment one worries less about the future. We were very happy during our journey, even when there was bodily discomfort. During our pilgrimage we discussed the difference between awareness and thinking. In theory we understand that thinking about a reality is different from mindfulness of a reality when it appears, but we often confuse thinking and mindfulness. We may believe that we are mindful of sound as just sound while we are actually merely thinking about sound and try to locate it. When we notice this we can realize that this is only a kind of thinking. When we think about hearing and sound, seeing and colour and try to know the difference between nåma and rúpa there is no awareness of either of them. In theory we have understood the difference between nåma and rúpa, but when they appear we may erroneously think that we are mindful of nåma as nåma and of rúpa as rúpa. We may take our theoretical knowledge for the direct experience of their characteristics. In that way right understanding is not being developed. --------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125886 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthan 6 - Terms - Ardent nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ken O, Thank you for your extracts. Burning away of the defilements, glad to be reminded of this meaning. Nina. Op 11-aug-2012, om 11:30 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Commentary to Satipatthana > < becoming is ardour. Ardour is a name for energy. > > Although the term burning [atapana] is applied to the abandoning of > defilements here, it is also applicable to right view, thought, > speech, action, livelihood, mindfulness and concentration. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125887 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:12 pm Subject: Satipatthana 6 - Terms - Mindfulness and Clear Comprehension 2 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<1041. Satima (193.4) ("mindful"): endowed with mindfulness which lays hold of the body. But because, by laying hold of the object with mindfulness, this [bhikkhu] contemplates with understanding — for there is no contemplation without mindfulness and hence it is said: "And mindfulness, bhikkhus, is omnipresent, I say" (S  v 115) — therefore here, [from the phrase] "he dwells contemplating the body in the body" up to here, |220| it is the meditation subject consisting of the foundation of mindfulness which is contemplation of the body that is expressed. Alternatively because internal inertia becomes an obstacle for one who is not ardent, and [because] one who does not clearly comprehend is confused about laying hold of what is the means and rejecting what is not the means, and [because] one who is unmindful is incapable of not letting go what is the means and of not laying hold of what is not the means, so that the meditation subject does not succeed for him. therefore it should be understood that [the words] "ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful" are said in order to point out those states through whose power that [meditation subject] does come to success.>> Commentary to Satipatthana <> **Clear comprehension will be discussed further on Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125888 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:22 pm Subject: Satipatthana 6 - Terms - Covetousness and Grief 1 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all Commentary to Satipatthana "Having overcome" refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part [tadangavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya]. Preliminary practice connected with the mundane path of mindfulness is pointed out by the commentator here. "In this world." In just this body. Here the body [kaya] is the world [loka], in the sense of a thing crumbling. As covetousness and grief are abandoned in feeling, consciousness, and mental objects, too, the Vibhanga says: "Even the five aggregates of clinging are the world." Covetousness stands for sense desire; and grief, for anger. As sense desire and anger are the principal hindrances, the abandoning of the hindrances is stated by the overcoming of covetousness and grief. With covetousness are abandoned the satisfaction rooted in bodily happiness, delight in the body, and the falling into erroneous opinion which takes as real the unreal beauty, pleasure, permanence and substantiality of the body. With the overcoming of grief are abandoned the discontent rooted in bodily misery, the non-delight in the culture of body-contemplation, and the desire to turn away from facing the real ugliness, suffering, impermanence and insubstantiality of the body. By the instruction dealing with the overcoming of covetousness and grief, yogic power and yogic skill are shown. Yogic power is the power of meditation. Yogic skill is dexterity in yoking oneself in meditation. Freedom from satisfaction and discontent in regard to bodily happiness and misery, the forbearing from delighting in the body, the bearing-up of non-delight in the course of body-contemplation, the state of being not captivated by the unreal, and the state of not running away from the real — these, when practiced produce yogic power; and the ability to practice these is yogic skill.>> KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125889 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:42 pm Subject: Satipatthana 6 - Terms - Covetousness and Grief 2 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<1044 And here in particular by this putting away of covetousness is stated the abandoning of attraction rooted in bodily comfort, and by the putting away of grief that of repulsion rooted in bodily discomfort; by the putting away of covetousness [is stated the abandoning] of delight in the body, and by the putting away of grief that of boredom with the development of [meditation on] the body; by the putting away of covetousness [is stated the abandoning] of the assumption of the untrue states of beauty, pleasure, etc. in respect of the body, and by the putting away of grief that of objection to the states of foulness, pleasurelessness, etc. in respect of the body. Thereby the yogic power and yogic capacity of the yogin are illustrated. For this is yogic power, i.e. that which is free from attraction and repulsion, which has conquered boredom and delight and which is without the assumption of the untrue and objection to the true; and one who is free from attraction and repulsion, has conquered boredom and delight and is without the assumption of the untrue and objection to the true is capable of yoga. >> Anguttara Nikaya VIII.6, Lokavipatti Sutta, The Failings of the World by TB <<"Now, gain arises for a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones. He reflects, 'Gain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He discerns it as it actually is. "Loss arises... Status arises... Disgrace arises... Censure arises... Praise arises... Pleasure arises... "Pain arises. He reflects, 'Pain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He discerns it as it actually is. "His mind does not remain consumed with the gain. His mind does not remain consumed with the loss... with the status... the disgrace... the censure... the praise... the pleasure. His mind does not remain consumed with the pain. "He does not welcome the arisen gain, or rebel against the arisen loss. He does not welcome the arisen status, or rebel against the arisen disgrace. He does not welcome the arisen praise, or rebel against the arisen censure. He does not welcome the arisen pleasure, or rebel against the arisen pain. As he thus abandons welcoming & rebelling, he is released from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.>> KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125890 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:48 pm Subject: Satipatthana 6 - Terms - Another Method of Interpretation ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all Commentary to Satipatthana <> KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125891 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:49 pm Subject: Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (and Nina) (125879) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Nina. > ... > Is it possible to say in brief what is the relationship between satipatthana and the eradication of the defilements? Jon has seemed to suggest to me that eradication of defilements [development of sila] is kusala but not a condition for the path of understanding. I would be interested to know in what way you see them related, if they are. > =============== J: Regarding "Jon has seemed to suggest to me that eradication of defilements [development of sila] is kusala but not a condition for the path of understanding", I'd just like to clarify what I've actually said on the point (I know Nina has already replied to your main question). The development of sila and the eradication of defilements are by no means the same thing. The eradication of defilements occurs only at moments of path consciousness. Until enlightenment is attained, all the previously accumulated defilements remain accumulated, regardless of how kusala the conduct in the meantime. In the Visuddhimagga excerpt that I've quoted a couple of times now, the eradication of defilements is given as one of the *benefits* of the development of insight, suggesting that it happens as a consequence of that development (rather than being a condition for that development). Another clarification to be kept in mind :-)) The question that you and I have been discussing at length, and which you may like to ask Nina to comment on, is whether or in what way the *development of sila* is a condition for satipatthana. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125892 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/11/2012 12:09:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > For those of us who lack patience to follow links, is your conclusion that > kamma patha is cetana in the kusala case but to a different extent > conventional bodily/speech action in the akusala case? > ------------------------------------------------------ > HCW: > From that material, the kusala case is a refraining from bad actions, > and hence cetana, but the akusala case is the bad actions themselves, many > of which are rupas - or so it seems. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > I have to assume that such a theory (no matter how it is supported by > sutta referencing) would be immediately refuted by the Abhidhamma texts which > are the arbiter(?) at DSG.(Or should be.) But if those texts support you > this will be of *huge* import, thanks for bringing it up. > ------------------------------------------------------ > HCW: > ??? I really don't care which way it is. My interest was merely to see > what is actually meant by the word 'kammapatha'. > ------------------------------------------------------- Nice to see you on the list and dealing with an issue that is of a lot of interest to me. It seems to me that the Buddha laid out three levels of kammapatha, mental, verbal and physical [meaning actions other than speech.] This follows the idea that you can think something bad, but not say it, think it and say it, but not do something physical about it, or you can take physical action based on what you have thought and/or said. So it follows a pretty conventional pattern and makes common sense. I think it is true that there is no intentional action without cetana, and so cetana is always the root of kammapatha, but mental kammapatha is only one level of action, and is the most "interior" of the three, so it would be like being eaten away by your own negative thoughts, but not actually directly harming someone else. If you seethe with hatred you will suffer, but also at some point you may blow up and hurt someone. Then the kammapatha becomes physical kammapatha and has a whole additional level of consequences. This way of looking at kammapatha makes a lot of sense to me. The idea that exists in Abhidhamma that the cetana has to be especially strong to result in "rupas" and not just "cetana" itself [and that is why the physical kammapatha has worse results] also makes sense, and so one can look at it both in terms of dhammas that emphasize the mental factors, and in terms of everyday life. Best, Rob E. =============================== It seems to me that your understanding is in accord with the material I quoted. :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125893 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:02 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125711) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > Pt. 2. > ... > ...As I've been saying, there are those three levels of kamma patha, and each one is significant, not just the mental level. > =============== J: Regarding "there are those three levels of kamma patha, and each one is significant, not just the mental level", they are not *levels* of kamma patha. It is simply that kamma patha is being classified by reference to whether speech or bodily action or mind only is involved. In each case, though the kamma is the mental factor of cetana. > =============== > Rob E.: If physical akusala kamma patha is worse than mental kamma patha, then physical kusala as the expression of kusala kamma patha is also more worthwhile than mental factors that are too weak to express themselves in action. > =============== J: Regarding, "physical akusala kamma patha is worse than mental kamma patha", there are 2 separate issues that are not to be confused: (1) kamma patha classified as to whether it involves action through body, speech or mind only and (2) intention that does not bring `completed' kamma. When considering the 3 kinds of kamma patha (action through body, speech or mind only), it cannot be said that one kind is worse than another. Kamma patha is kamma patha! Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125894 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Op 10-aug-2012, om 21:46 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > But now back to feeling sad and nostalgiac, it has been > accmumulated for countless lifetimes, so it is natural for it to > continue to arise, for panna to understand. ------- N: Yes, natural. We cannot force ourselves not to love dear people, but very, very gradually we may learn not to take such moments for self. But all in order and due course. That is why the Buddha always spoke about seeing. ----- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125895 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard and Rob E, Op 11-aug-2012, om 14:59 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > HCW: > > From that material, the kusala case is a refraining from bad > actions, > > and hence cetana, but the akusala case is the bad actions > themselves, > many > > of which are rupas - or so it seems. ------- N: The kusala case: not just refraining, but, as you also suggested we have to consider all ten bases of meritorious actions. Akusala: are mental, but can be committed through body and speech. The ruupas themselves are not good or bad, they do not experience anything. There is also akusala kamma patha through the mind: specific kinds of wrong views (no kamma, no vipaaka), planning to kill, and covetousness, planning to take things away. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125896 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Maipenrai, Op 10-aug-2012, om 23:29 heeft Maipenrai Dhammasaro het volgende geschreven: > Such as unintentional killing of an insect when sweeping the temple > grounds and the intentional killing of a human!!! ------ N: Certainly, that is true. I was thinking of grave kamma patha, such as intentional killing of a living being. Unintentional killing is not kamma patha. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125897 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello Nina > ------- > N: Yes, natural. We cannot force ourselves not to love dear people, > but very, very gradually we may learn not to take such moments for > self. But all in order and due course. That is why the Buddha always > spoke about seeing. > ----- Very very gradually,the adze handle. Patience and wisdom have to overcome the socially conditioned tendency to feel we must at all cost make sonething great, achieve something great in this one lifetime. We read about the turban on fire and misunderstand - it cannot be the self that strives, the striving self just wraps itself tighter in the binds of samsara. Moments of understanding understood loosen the binds, when there is detachment. But so easy for thinking with attachment about seeing and visible object to slip in. There are conditions for us to hear about detachment from the beginning, which sounds pardoxical. I am trying now to remember how A. Sujin explained detachment from the beginning. I think she was talking about attachment to practices. What do you think? Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125898 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi again Correction: Moments of understanding understood should have been moments of seeing understood phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125899 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:46 am Subject: Satipatthana 1- 6 - Personal remarks ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all After the initial synopsis by the commentary and Dispeller of Delusion, the next part touches on the details of mindfulness of breathing. Presently, I will not touch on the details of mindfulness of breathing as this could be found in Visud and Commentary to Mindfulness of Breathing. Neither will I touch on the details on the mindfulness in body parts including by elements as this could be found in Visud as well as in the Dispeller of Delusion. In future, I will do a series on these. There is also the synopsis by feelings, consciousness and mental objects which I did not include in the initial synopsis. I will put it together in the detail part for a smoother flow of this series. Whatever one's interpretation of this satipatthana, I find it useful to look at the commentarian and Abhidhamma texts for more clarity. I sincerely hope you find it useful. May you all be happy Cheers KC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125900 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:00 am Subject: What characteristics do concepts have? truth_aerator Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, all, Quick question: What characteristics do concepts have? From what I've read, Khun Sujin claims that concepts do not arise or fall. Does this mean that concepts are not dukkha either? Do concepts have emptiness as their characteristic? Yes or no? With best wishes, Alex Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125901 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:09 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana 1- 6 - Personal remarks kenhowardau Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken O, <. ..> > KO: Whatever one's interpretation of this satipatthana, I find it useful to look at the commentarian and Abhidhamma texts for more clarity. > > I sincerely hope you find it useful. May you all be happy ----------- KH: Thanks Ken, but I wonder what you had in mind when you said "whatever one's interpretation." There is no need for you to answer – I am just thinking out loud – but if one's interpretation is wrong to begin with there is no benefit in making it clearer, is there? I wonder how many Buddhist scholars are working on an entirely wrong interpretation, and just making their wrong understanding deeper and deeper. Maybe the key is to do what Phil has just mentioned, and always "go back to the beginning." Ken H Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125902 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:50 pm Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all Commentary to Fruits of Recluseship by BB The bhikkhu acts with clear comprehension (sampajanakdri hoti). pg 94 C Y. He does all his tasks with clear comprehension. Or he practices clear comprehension itself. For he practices clear comprehension when engaged in going forward, etc.; he is never lacking in clear comprehension. SUB. CY. One clearly comprehending (sampajdno) is one who knows comprehensively [in various ways] or eminently, in a distinguished way. The state of one clearly comprehending is clear comprehension (sampajanna), that is, it is the knowledge occurring in the way just described. N. SUB. CY. The teacher Ananda Thera (author of the Abhidhamma subcommentary) says: "Clearly comprehending is understanding comprehensively, rightly, and evenly (samantato, sammd, samam vd pajdnanam sampajdnam). That itself is clear comprehension." One who "acts with clear comprehension" is one who habitually does all his tasks with clear comprehension or one who habitually practices clear comprehension. Another method of explanation distinct from that of the commentary is this: as it arouses non-delusion in regard to (all such actions as) going forward, etc., it is the practice of clear comprehension. One in whom there is this practice of clear comprehension is one who "acts with clear comprehension." CY. Clear comprehension is fourfold: clear comprehension of purposefulness, clear comprehension of suitability, clear comprehension of the resort, and clear comprehension of non-delusion. SUB. CY. What is purposeful is what accords with the purpose, that is, with growth in the Dhamma. Clear comprehension of purposefulness is clearly comprehending what is purposeful in (such activities) as going forward, etc. Clear comprehension of suitability is clearly comprehending what is suitable, beneficial, for oneself. Clear comprehension of the resort is clearly comprehending the resort for one's almsround, and also clearly comprehending the resort of one's meditation subject, not abandoning it when engaged in other activities such as going forward, etc. Clear comprehension of non-delusion is the clear comprehension which does not become deluded about (such activities) as going forward, etc. In Dispeller of Delusion <<1714. But because that clear comprehension only exists in association with mindfulness, hence in its description sato sampajano abhikkamati, sato sampajano patikkamati <250.12> ("mindful and clearly comprehending he moves forward, mindful and clearly comprehending he moves backward') is said. For this one when moving forward or moving backward is not lacking in mindfulness and not without clear comprehension; but being possessed of mindfulness and clearly comprehending only with understanding he both moves forward and moves backward>> KC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) 125903 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:03 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 7. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, When hearing appears it should be understood as only hearing, no self who hears. Only the characteristic of the reality appearing at the present moment, whatever it may be, should be known as it is. When sound appears, it can be realized as only sound, it does not belong to us. In this way right understanding of realities can be developed. When sound is known but not yet the experience of sound, there may be a condition for paññå to develop also the understanding of the experience of sound. We should not have an idea that we can direct sati to this or that particular object. There is no rule as to what object sati should take; sati may be aware of sound many times without there being awareness of hearing, or it may be aware of hearing without there being awareness of sound. When we think about characterstics there is no need to worry about this, because thinking arises due to conditions. One can think with lobha, dosa or moha, or with kusala cittas; it all depends on one’s previous accumulations. Thoughts are different every moment and, thus, how could thinking be self? How could we possibly direct our thinking? The characteristic of thinking can be realized as it is, as only nåma, not self. Right understanding, not self, discerns the characteristics that appear as they are. When paññå is more developed it can realize the impermanence of realities, but first the characteristic which appears should be known more precisely. When, for example, sound appears it should be known as a kind of rúpa and when hearing appears it should be known as a kind of nåma. So long as the difference between the characteristics of nåma and rúpa has not been clearly distinguished, their arising and falling away cannot be realized. -------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125904 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:21 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, Op 11-aug-2012, om 16:46 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > But so easy for thinking with attachment about seeing and visible > object to slip in. There are conditions for us to hear about > detachment from the beginning, which sounds pardoxical. I am trying > now to remember how A. Sujin explained detachment from the > beginning. I think she was talking about attachment to practices. > What do you think? ----------- N: Attachment not only to certain practices, but to all kinds of objects. Understanding even a little leads to some degree of detachment at that moment. In Thai she would say: know and detach (ru le la). I discussed this with Kh Duangduen. Without the knowing no detachment, there has to be the understanding first. Even when we think of the moment. We do not think of complete detachment. Seeing arises and on account of seeing we cling to stories on account of what was seen. We gradually learn that only visible object is seen, only a kind of ruupa, not a thing, no person. As the late Bhante Dhammadharo said: the word only is very important, it points to anattaa. Even intellectual understanding, when it becomes firmer and firmer (sacca ~naa.na) can lead already to a degree (even slight) of detachment. As understanding develops more, also detachment develops. It has conditions to develop, we do not have to try to become detached or think about it. But all the time we have to consider: gradually, gradually, as you point to the adze handle. No expectations. ------------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125905 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What characteristics do concepts have? nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Alex, Op 12-aug-2012, om 1:00 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > Quick question: What characteristics do concepts have? > ------- N: None. They are only objects we are thinking of, stories or situations. Not realities, not naama or ruupa. -------- > From what I've read, Khun Sujin claims that concepts do not arise > or fall. Does this mean that concepts are not dukkha either? > --------- N: They are not realities, so, they do not arise because of conditions and then fall away. Like the idea of world peace. This is something we can think of, but it cannot be directly experienced through one of the six doorways. Dukkha pertains to what arises and falls away, thus, concepts are not dukkha. ------- > > A: Do concepts have emptiness as their characteristic? Yes or no? > ------- N: Su~n~natta, emptiness, has been explained in the Tipi.taka as empty of self. Once Kh Sujin explained that even concepts are not self. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125906 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:59 pm Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Going Forward and Backward 1 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all   The commentary to Satipatthana  <>  KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125907 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:52 pm Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Going Forward and Backward 2 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email  Dear all  Commentary to the Satipatthana <>   Commentary to the Fruits of  Recluseship 105 - 107 <<(iv) Clear comprehension of non-delusion is the clear comprehension which does not become deluded about going forward, etc. It should be understood as follows. Herein, when going forward and returning, a bhikkhu does not become deluded about these actions like the blind and foolish worldling who deludedly thinks: "A self goes forward, the action of going forward is produced by a self," or "I go forward, the action of going forward is produced by me." Instead he undeludedly understands: When the thought "Let me go forward" arises, the mind-originated air element arises together with that thought, producing [bodily] intimation.46 Thus through the diffusion of the air element (originating from) mental activity, this set of bones conceived of as the body goes forward. When going forward, in each act of raising the foot two elements—the earth element and the water element—are subordinate and weak, while the other two elements [the air element and the heat element] are predominant and strong. So too in bringing the foot forward and in shifting it away. But in dropping the foot two elements—the heat element and the air element—are subordinate and weak, while the other two elements [the earth element and the water element] are predominant and strong. So too in placing the foot on the ground and in pressing the foot against the ground.  SUB. CY. By the phrase "A self goes forward," he shows how the blind worldling becomes deluded about the activity of going forward due to the obsession of views; by the phrase "I go forward," he shows delusion due to the obsession of conceit. Since neither of these (views and conceit) occurs without craving, delusion due to the obsession of craving is also (implicitly) shown. "Instead he undeludedly understands": he shows how there is non-delusion through the dissection of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga). "In each act of raising the foot," etc.: the heat element is the primary principle of motion in the act of raising the foot and the air element is its assistant. Since the heat element assisted by the air element is thus the condition for raising the foot, these two elements, through their efficacy, are predominant here; the other two are subordinate [because they lack that efficacy]. "So too in bringing the foot forward and in shifting it away": the air element is the primary principle of motion in the horizontal movement of the foot, and thus its function is prominent in the acts of bringing the foot forward and shifting it away; the heat element is its assistant. Since the air element assisted by the heat element is thus the condition for bringing the foot forward and shifting it away, these two elements, through their efficacy, are predominant here; the other two are subordinate [because they lack that efficacy].  Even though (in these two cases) the heat element and the air element are differently distinguished as assistant (anugamaka) and assisted (anngantabba), referring to their mere presence the commentator groups them together and says "so too.".>>  Commentary to the Satipatthana  <>   Commentary to Fruits of Recluseship  pg 108 <>  KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (9) #125908 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What characteristics do concepts have? upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Alex (and Nina) - In a message dated 8/11/2012 7:00:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Nina, all, Quick question: What characteristics do concepts have? From what I've read, Khun Sujin claims that concepts do not arise or fall. Does this mean that concepts are not dukkha either? Do concepts have emptiness as their characteristic? Yes or no? With best wishes, Alex =============================== If I may butt in with my personal view on this: Speaking of concepts is merely a substantialist way of talking about thinking. There is thinking, but in reality, there are no findable things called concepts. That said, I do believe that certain collections of interrelated phenomena that I call "complexes" are conceived of (through thinking), and, while collections are not individual realities, thinking of them is our way of grasping interrelationships. The elementary interrelated phenomena are knowable through eye, ear, tongue, nose, and body doors (and mind door), and the interrelationships among them are knowable through thinking. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125909 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What characteristics do concepts have? philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina > N: They are not realities, so, they do not arise because of > conditions and then fall away. Like the idea of world peace. This is > something we can think of, but it cannot be directly experienced > through one of the six doorways. Dukkha pertains to what arises and > falls away, thus, concepts are not dukkha. An idea cannot be directly experienced through one of the six doorways. Right now I am sitting on a bus leaving my summer home, that is an idea that is conditioning sadness but only the dosa (nama) is directly exoerienced through the mind door, the idea of leaving the summer house is papanca a kind of spin-off produced by thinking..but not experienced directly through the the mind door? So how is it experienced? Thanks, when you have time... Thanks also Nina for your answer to my question about detachment from the beginning. Back to you later. Phil > > > > A: Do concepts have emptiness as their characteristic? Yes or no? > > > ------- > N: Su~n~natta, emptiness, has been explained in the Tipi.taka as > empty of self. Once Kh Sujin explained that even concepts are not self. > ------- > Nina. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125910 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:01 am Subject: Short talks about Dhamma, from no. 22. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Short talks about Dhamma, from no. 22. By Acharn Sujin. .... If we see that there is a great deal of akusala, we know that kusala is not yet sufficient so that it can eliminate akusala. The ariyans(who are not arahat) also have akusala cittas, but not to the same extent as the non-ariyans. They have no longer wrong view accompanying cittas rooted in attachment. They (who have not reached the stage of the anaagaami) still enjoy visible object, sound, smell, flavour, tangible object, but they have no wrong view, they do not take them for lasting or for “things” that exist. They have right understanding of realities. One should listen to the Dhamma so that the truth will be known. It begins with listening so that the understanding will be firm, steadfast. What appears through the eyes can be seen. Why must this be understood? Because it is the truth: visible object appears, so that it can be seen. Gradually clinging can be eliminated. One clings on account of what can be seen. There are conditions for seeing, for clinging. If one does not see, there is no clinging to visible object. Before someone could become a sotaapanna, pa~n~naa had to begin to develop by listening to the Dhamma. There can be understanding of what one hears. We listen to the Dhamma so that there can be right understanding of realities. The understanding of the Dhamma can develop until the magga-citta and the fruition-consciousness of the arahat can arise. Right understanding is indispensable and its development has to be in the right order. We should not be impatient by wishing for a result or because of the wrong view of self. The whole of the Dhamma tends to detachment. -------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125911 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:39 am Subject: Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina. I am in Florida with my family right now for a week's vacation, but the dhammas continue to arise as usual. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ---------- > N: Through satipa.t.thaana understanding, pa~n~naa, which sees > realities as they are is developed. This kind of pa~n~naa will > eradicate defilements stage by stage. I can see how panna can eradicate defilements, but I wonder if eradication of defilements likewise gives any support for development of panna. > --------- > > R: I see that these are all very positive aims - but I don't see > > how they intersect with satipatthana. I would be very interested to > > know what you see in those meritorious results that supports the > > development of satipatthana. > > > ------ > N: Satipa.t.thaana supports the monk in fulfilling his task as a > monk, with all the obligations he has for the Order and as being an > example for the layfollowers. He has to be aware of naama and ruupa > during all his activities, in all postures, as much as he is able to. > This will bear on his conduct towards his fellowmonks. For example, > when he is annoyed by their speech, he realizes that the real cause > of his annoyance is not the other person but his own defilements. > In this way there can be restraint of anger and other defilements for > him. This is for the good of the whole Sangha, and it also instills > confidence in layfollowers. Satipa.t.thaana can lead to more patience > towards contrarious people and difficult circumstances, such as > sickness. So often the Buddha visited sick monks and after inquiring > after their bodily needs he would help them to understand realities. > When, for example, someone became ill during our trips to India, Kh > Sujin would visit him/her immediately and speak about > satipa.t.thaana. I remember that once our friend Pinna was ill, and > then Kh Sujin visited her and gave her a Dhamma, talk. Several of us > went along to listen as well. > ------ I see how the arising of defilements gives an opportunity for satipatthana, if one sees the nature of the namas rather than reacting to them without awareness; but I do not see how the rules for behavior supports satipatthana. Perhaps it does not matter for satipatthana whether one is following the rules or not? If it does matter, it sounds like it is more for social cohesion and confidence among the monks, but what kind of confidence? Confidence in the Sangha? Is that confidence as a dhamma, or are the results conventional and social? > > > > R: Do the transgressions interfere with bhavana? > > > -------- > > > N: They are contrary to his brahmafaring,.. > > > > R: Would this directly stop his development of satipatthana, or > > would it depend on what other accumulations he had? > > > -------- > N: It all depends on the individual. We have to consider cittas from > moment to moment. The development of satipa.t.thaana is not a state > that is lasting, it is momentary. It is the development of direct > awareness and understanding of whatever presents itself at this moment. I would think that if the monks were only interested in development of satipatthana, they would not pay so much attention to the rules of behavior for monks, and would focus more on just being aware in this or that situation. In fact, they would be more like lay people. Why spend all the effort on behaving like a monk if it has no application to the path? If it is just a social institution, then that is fine; then it is just a conventional group with its rules like any other social group. But if there is a relationship between these controlled behaviors and the ability to develop awareness, then I would like to know that this is the case. It seems to me that the rules for monks supports concentration and awareness, as well as discipline that allows for paying attention to what is most essential, but that would involve conventional supports for that which is paramatha. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125912 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:09 am Subject: Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > The question that you and I have been discussing at length, and which you may like to ask Nina to comment on, is whether or in what way the *development of sila* is a condition for satipatthana. I take it by your remarks that you do not consider sila as a condition for the development of satipatthana, but only the other way around? Does sila play any role in the development of satipatthana? If so, how would you describe that role, from your viewpoint? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125913 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard. > --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ > (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@ wrote: > > > For those of us who lack patience to follow links, is your conclusion > that > > kamma patha is cetana in the kusala case but to a different extent > > conventional bodily/speech action in the akusala case? > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > HCW: > > From that material, the kusala case is a refraining from bad actions, > > and hence cetana, but the akusala case is the bad actions themselves, > many > > of which are rupas - or so it seems. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > I have to assume that such a theory (no matter how it is supported by > > sutta referencing) would be immediately refuted by the Abhidhamma texts > which > > are the arbiter(?) at DSG.(Or should be.) But if those texts support you > > this will be of *huge* import, thanks for bringing it up. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > HCW: > > ??? I really don't care which way it is. My interest was merely to see > > what is actually meant by the word 'kammapatha'. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Nice to see you on the list and dealing with an issue that is of a lot of > interest to me. It seems to me that the Buddha laid out three levels of > kammapatha, mental, verbal and physical [meaning actions other than speech.] > This follows the idea that you can think something bad, but not say it, > think it and say it, but not do something physical about it, or you can take > physical action based on what you have thought and/or said. So it follows a > pretty conventional pattern and makes common sense. > > I think it is true that there is no intentional action without cetana, and > so cetana is always the root of kammapatha, but mental kammapatha is only > one level of action, and is the most "interior" of the three, so it would > be like being eaten away by your own negative thoughts, but not actually > directly harming someone else. If you seethe with hatred you will suffer, but > also at some point you may blow up and hurt someone. Then the kammapatha > becomes physical kammapatha and has a whole additional level of consequences. > > This way of looking at kammapatha makes a lot of sense to me. The idea > that exists in Abhidhamma that the cetana has to be especially strong to > result in "rupas" and not just "cetana" itself [and that is why the physical > kammapatha has worse results] also makes sense, and so one can look at it both > in terms of dhammas that emphasize the mental factors, and in terms of > everyday life. > > Best, > Rob E. > =============================== > It seems to me that your understanding is in accord with the material > I quoted. :-) I came in after the original quotes, I think, but that is good to hear. Even if cetana alone creates the kamma, cetana that is strong enough to arouse rupas [action in-the-world that affects "others"] is still much worse than cetana that is confined to oneself [mental experience.] Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125914 From: "azita" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What characteristics do concepts have? gazita2002 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email hallo Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > An idea cannot be directly experienced through one of the six doorways. Right now I am sitting on a bus leaving my summer home, that is an idea that is conditioning sadness but only the dosa (nama) is directly exoerienced through the mind door, the idea of leaving the summer house is papanca a kind of spin-off produced by thinking..but not experienced directly through the the mind door? So how is it experienced? Thanks, when you have time... azita:not sure what you mean by 'not experienced directly thro mind door'? I think it goes like this: vittika and vicara arise with cittas [except the sense door cognitions like seeing and mayb some others - will have to check abhidhamma] so these two cetasikas arise in javana processes in both sense door and mind door. Sense door processes have only realities as object however mind door processes can have both realities and non realities[concepts] as object. Therefore concepts are objects of mind door. Mayb its not this simple as there are lots of other cetasikas that arise as well. Its interesting cos I'm not sure if I've got this right, will look forward to Nina's comment. patience, courage and good cheer azita Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125915 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil, Beautifully written below, thx for sharing...... all ideas, all dreams, all fantasies through the mind-door.... Metta Sarah >Ph: Because of our deeply accumulated defilements, we love our favourite places and favourite people so intensely, even as our realization of their evanescence deepens, we love them more and more, our hearts ache with so much love for them that it can become oppressive. Where is the lightness and gaiety with which we once enjoyed people and things? It seems experience, which should be such a wise teacher, obliges us to love more and more, like it or not. And then there arises reflection on Dhamma, on seeing and visible object, on hearing and sound, on knowing nama from rupa, and there is a shifting of the burden, a lightening. The Buddha saw deeply into the dissatsfactory nature of this endless cycle of attaching and departure, and taught the way out. We have cried a sea of tears for the loved ones we have lost through countless lifetimes, and had many wonderful joys with them too, ennobling joys through which the rare gift of our human birth was fulfilled. And now we see the way out, beyond the sorrows and the joys, and it is now and now and now that >the way is forged, in moments of seeing understood, moments of hearing understood, it is now and niw and now that panna and detachment develop, and we come closer and closer to letting go for good. > >But now back to feeling sad and nostalgiac, it has been accmumulated for countless lifetimes, so it is natural for it to continue to arise, for panna to understand. Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125916 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:47 pm Subject: Role of sila in satipatthana jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125912) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: The question that you and I have been discussing at length, and which you may like to ask Nina to comment on, is whether or in what way the *development of sila* is a condition for satipatthana. > > RE: I take it by your remarks that you do not consider sila as a condition for the development of satipatthana, but only the other way around? > > Does sila play any role in the development of satipatthana? If so, how would you describe that role, from your viewpoint? > =============== J: OK, the following is how I see the role of sila in the development of satipatthana. Sila is a supporting factor for the person who is developing the path. But good sila is not a prerequisite to the development of the path (at least, not to development of the path at the levels that concern you and me). There are certain factors that are prerequisites to the development of the path. In sutta #5 of SN 55 (Sotapatti-samyutta, `Connected Discourses on Stream Entry'), the Buddha says the following: << << << << "What is a factor for stream-entry? "Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. >> >> >> These factors apply in the order in which they are given. Thus there must be the hearing of the teaching concerning the development of the path, explained in a way that makes it understandable to us, and reflection on what has been understood, in order for there to be `practice in accordance with the Dhamma'. Obviously, the development of the path in previous lives plays a big part here, since what is an appropriate explanation of the teachings for one will not be appropriate for another. But that aside, it is then a matter of coming across the teaching on dhammas and awareness/insight into their true nature. We need to hear these aspects of the teachings frequently and in detail, and to have them explained in different ways, because it can take a long time for the penny to drop. As I said, these factors are prerequisites. For the person who has not had the teachings properly explained, there is no prospect of development of the path, regardless of how `good' his/her sila is. For this person, development of sila can lead to rebirth in a happy realm, but nothing beyond that (not even to hearing the teachings in a future life). For the person who has heard the teachings and is developing the path, sila will be a support. This person lives at ease with his/her conscience, and avoids rebirth in an unhappy realm (where there is no opportunity to hear the teachings). But regardless of how `bad' a person's sila, if there is right understanding of the path this can condition exposure to the teachings in future lifetimes. My viewpoint. Hoping you find it clearly stated. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125917 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:50 pm Subject: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 8. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, When paññå has not been developed yet one doubts when an object is experienced through a sense-door and when through the mind-door. Visible object is experienced by seeing and also by other cittas arising in the same sense-door process. After that visible object is experienced by cittas arising in a mind-door process. All the sense- objects are experienced by cittas arising in the relevant sense-door processes and then by cittas arising in a mind-door process. Later on there are other mind-door process cittas which define the object and think about it. At this moment the mind-door proces is concealed, but when paññå clearly knows nåma as nåma, different from rúpa, there is no longer doubt about the mind-door, it is no longer concealed. This occurs at the first stage of insight knowledge. Through our discussions we began to understand more than before that intellectual knowledge is different from direct understanding of realities. We may have a great deal of intellectual knowledge due to our reading of the scriptures and pondering over them. We may understand intellectually that all conditioned realities are impermanent but this kind of knowledge is not the same as the paññå that directly understands realities and that can eradicate the wrong view of self. We may read in the scriptures that the eye is impermanent, seeing is impermanent, colour is impermanent; that the ear is impermanent, hearing is impermanent, sound is impermanent. But if there is no awareness of them when they appear there will be only intellectual knowledge and not the direct understanding of realities as they are. The Dhamma deals not with merely words, but with reality that should be proved. There were many people before us who have proved the truth through the development of the eightfold Path. Our pilgrimage to the Buddhist places was most fruitful. ********** (the end) Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125918 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and what I heard. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil (and Azita), Op 12-aug-2012, om 15:59 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > Right now I am sitting on a bus leaving my summer home, that is an > idea that is conditioning sadness but only the dosa (nama) is > directly experienced through the mind door, > --------- N: This is likely to be thinking about "my sadness", thus, a concept. When naama is known as naama and ruupa as ruupa, characteristics of cetasikas such as dosa can be investigated more precisely. Not before the first stage of insight. IT cannot be known when we do not even understand what naama is, ------- > Ph: the idea of leaving the summer house is papanca a kind of spin- > off produced by thinking..but not experienced directly through the > the mind door? So how is it experienced? > ------- N: It is a story one can think of. A situation, thus, a concept. Not a reality directly known through the mind-door. -------- I heard more on detachment on a Thai recording: If sati does not arise, it does not arise, one should not worry about it. If one tries to have sati this is counteractive. One has to know the way to let go of lobha, otherwise it comes in whenever there is an opportunity. Lobha motivates one to select this or that object and this is not the development of the eightfold Path. The Path is the way of detachment, from the beginning until the end. Lobha that arises with wrong view should be abandoned. ------- Nina. Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125919 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, Howard & all, >________________________________ > From: Robert E >> S: Kamma patha is always mental - it refers specifically to cetana cetasika (intention/kamma) that is of the degree that it conditions particular kinds of speech or acts through the body, i.e rupas conditioned by those akusala cittas. > >R: So the rupas that arise are the result of how strong the akusala cittas are. And the akusala cittas cause the kamma. .... S: It is the akusala (or kusala) cetana that is the kamma. Yes, as discussed, an idea of killing is not the same as the idea which is sufficiently strong to prompt action or an order at that time. .... >> Same with dosa, intentions to harm and so on - all dhammas can only be known when they arise... > >R: In the midst of action, I guess one can focus on the mental qualities that accompany the act. ... S: It's not a matter of "focus" but of understanding and awareness which can arise anytime, anywhere, quite unexpectedly if one has heard about dhammas and accumulated understanding. Like now, there can be awareness of sound or visible object without any prior thought or focus. Same "in the midst of action". As for the point raised about whether it is only in the Abhidhamma that kamma (of any kind) is shown to be just cetana and kamma patha indicates cetana which manifests in completed acts through body, speech and mind, here's a sutta for your reference on Kamma. (I'll include the Pali too for those interested): http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/anguttara/06/an06-063.html Nibbedhika Sutta Kamma.m, bhikkhave, veditabba.m, kammaana.m nidaana-sambhavo veditabbo, kammaana.m vemattataa vedibbaa, kammaana.m vipaako veditabbo, kamma-nirodho veditabbo, kamma-nirodha-gaaminii pa.tipadaa veditabbaati, iti kho paneta.m vutta.m. Ki~nceta.m pa.ticca vutta.m? " 'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known..' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?" Cetanaaha.m, bhikkhave, kamma.m vadaami. Cetayitvaa kamma.m karoti: kaayena, vaacaaya, manasaa. "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." [S: Note - Cetana is kamma.... ] Katamo ca, bhikkhave, kammaana.m nidaana-sambhavo? Phasso, bhikkhave, kammaana.m nidaana-sambhavo. "And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play." Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, kammaana.m vemattataa? Atthi, bhikkhave, kamma.m niraya-vedaniiya.m, atthi kamma.m tiracchaana-yoni-vedaniiya.m, atthi kamma.m petti-visaya-vedaniiya.m, atthi kamma.m manussa-loka-vedaniiya.m, atthi kamma.m deva-loka-vedaniiya.m. Aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave, kammaana.m vemattataa. "And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma. Katamo ca, bhikkhave, kammaana.m vipaako? Tividhaaha.m, bhikkhave, kammaana.m vipaaka.m vadaami – di.t.theva dhamme, upapajje vaa, apare vaa pariyaaye. Aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave, kammaana.m vipaako. "And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma. [S: Again, the text is referring to the results of kamma (cetana) which manifested through body, speech or mind door] Katamo ca, bhikkhave, kamma-nirodho? Phassa-nirodho, bhikkhave, kamma-nirodho. Ayameva ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo kamma-nirodha-gaaminii pa.tipadaa, seyyathida.m: sammaa-di.t.thi, sammaa-sa"nkappo, sammaa-vaacaa, sammaa-kammanto, sammaa-aajiivo, sammaa-vaayaamo, sammaa-sati, sammaa-samaadhi. "And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. [S: No matter how long there is the suppression of akusala (or kusala) kamma patha, it is only through the development of the eightfold path that the eradication of the worst akusala kamma will be eradicated (at stage of sotapanna when wrong view is eradicated) and eventually all akusala kamma and kusala kamma at stage of arahat, so that there will be no further results by way of rebirth and subsequent vipaka.] Yato kho, bhikkhave, ariyasaavako eva.m kamma.m pajaanaati, eva.m kammaana.m nidaana-sambhava.m pajaanaati, eva.m kammaana.m vemattata.m pajaanaati, eva.m kammaana.m vipaaka.m pajaanaati, eva.m kamma-nirodha.m pajaanaati, eva.m kamma-nirodha-gaamini.m pa.tipada.m pajaanaati, so ima.m nibbedhika.m brahmacariya.m pajaanaati kamma-nirodha.m. "Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma. ..... Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125920 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E, Op 12-aug-2012, om 17:39 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > I am in Florida with my family right now for a week's vacation, but > the dhammas continue to arise as usual. :-) > ------ N: I wish you a very pleasant vacation. Everything is dhamma. ------- > R: I can see how panna can eradicate defilements, but I wonder if > eradication of defilements likewise gives any support for > development of panna. > ------ N: It is the function of pa~n~naa to eradicate defilements, stage by stage. All perfections are supporting conditions pa~n~naa, but, they are not a perfection if one takes these for self. ------- > > R: I see how the arising of defilements gives an opportunity for > satipatthana, if one sees the nature of the namas rather than > reacting to them without awareness; > -------- N: I would not put it that way, an opportunity for satipa.t.thaana. If there is right understanding one does not select objects of awareness, even if akusala arises it can be an object of satipa.t.thaana. ------- > R: but I do not see how the rules for behavior supports > satipatthana. Perhaps it does not matter for satipatthana whether > one is following the rules or not? > ------- N: The rules make sense when they are followed with satipa.t.thaana. For the monk it does matter to follow the rules of Patimokkha. ------- > R: If it does matter, it sounds like it is more for social cohesion > and confidence among the monks, but what kind of confidence? > Confidence in the Sangha? Is that confidence as a dhamma, or are > the results conventional and social? > -------- N: Confidence is saddhaa, confidence in kusala. When layfollowers see the good example in behaviour of the monks, it instills confidence in them, it is an inspiration for them. No wrong speech, less useless talk. Confidence is a reality, a dhamma. Kusala is beneficial both for oneself and for one's fellowmen. -------- R: > I would think that if the monks were only interested in development > of satipatthana, they would not pay so much attention to the rules > of behavior for monks, and would focus more on just being aware in > this or that situation. In fact, they would be more like lay > people. Why spend all the effort on behaving like a monk if it has > no application to the path? If it is just a social institution, > then that is fine; then it is just a conventional group with its > rules like any other social group. But if there is a relationship > between these controlled behaviors and the ability to develop > awareness, then I would like to know that this is the case. > ------ N: Again, following the Vinaya and satipa.t.thaana have to go together. The monk also has to do cleaning, washing, sweeping, all kinds of chores, but, with awareness of naama and ruupa. A good example for layfollowers, to be followed in their own situation. He is a monk, and the difference between monk and layman is as vast as heaven and earth, Kh Sujin explained. A layman who becomes a monk is as it were born anew. --------- > > R: It seems to me that the rules for monks supports concentration > and awareness, as well as discipline that allows for paying > attention to what is most essential, but that would involve > conventional supports for that which is paramatha. > -------- N: For the monk there are two tasks (dhura, burden or responsibility): gantha (study of pariyatti, the teachings) and vipassanaa. As you say: paying attention to what is most essential. Conventional supports, I would not put it that way, I always hesitate to use the word conventional. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125921 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:23 pm Subject: Steps.... sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, You mentioned (off-list) that friends mentioned kinds of walking meditation such as "instructions for one-step (left, right) and two-step (lifting, dropping) walking" and that this was supported in the texts. As you mentioned, it's difficult to see any purpose in "doing segmented walking" and how "it fits in with the purpose of the iriyāpatha meditation subject. Why so much focus on the walking? What about the other postures?" K.Sujin would say that it indicates a complete lack of understanding of iriyaapatha. People think that when we read about awareness of bodily postures that this means they should focus and be aware of postures, such as by slow walking or sitting without moving. In fact iriyaapatha refers to the opposite. The Buddha is pointing out that what we take of postures (through attachment and wrong view) are actually just various rupas taken for the body. When we are walking, we think there is a person taking steps and walking. In fact there are only various rupas conditioned by cittas  - no self, no body, no walking at all. The Buddha stressed that no matter the time, occasion or activity, there are only namas and rupas arising and falling away. From the Satipatthana Sutta and comy (Soma transl): "Because of that this yogi knows thus: If there arises the thought, 'I shall go,' that thought produces the process of oscillation; the process of oscillation produces expression (the bodily movement which indicates going and so forth). The moving on of the whole body through the diffusion of the process of oscillation is called going." From the subcommetary: "Produces the process of oscillation. Brings about the group of materiality with the quality of oscillation in excess. This group of materiality is that of the pure octad consisting of the Four Great Primaries [mahabhuta] symbolized by earth, water, fire and air, and the four derived from these: color, smell, taste and nutritive essence [pathavi apo tejo vayo vanna gandha rasa oja]" As you quoted K.Sujin as saying in India: "If we think of the body as being somewhere, there is an idea of my body that is sitting, lying down, standing or walking. When the true nature of realities will appear, their arising and falling away, there will not be an idea of posture. The idea of a collection of realities, of a group, a ‘whole’ will be eliminated. The idea of a whole hinders the experience of the arising and falling away of realities. Even when closing one’s eyes one may think of oneself as sitting, standing, walking or lying down. Even when no ruupa is appearing sa~n~naa remembers postures. It conceals the arising and falling of dhammas in succession, it takes them as a whole. Realities arise and fall away so fast but sa~n~naa is the condition to stay in the ocean of concepts." ... S: You mentioned that a friend gave the Vism and comy as a source of the six-step walking practice and also the Satipatthana Sutta and that a three-step is used for beginners and so when teachers such as Mahasi Sayadaw advocated such practices, it is according to the texts. As Ken H suggested recently, when there is wrong view of self that can control dhammas and wrong ideas about wholes, postures and steps, any of the texts will be read in this light. The Buddha taught awareness and understanding of whatever appears now. The following is from a post I wrote before: >S: From the commentary to the Vibhanga, transl as ‘Dispeller of Delusion’ (PTS): *** 242: “For the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province of anyone else; it is the province of the Fully Enlightened Ones only. Thus the characteristic of no-self is unobvious...........but here it should be understood that he taught it by means of both impermanence and pain. “But it is owing to not keeping in mind, owing to non-penetration of what and owing to concealment by what that these characteristics do not appear? Firstly the characteristic of impermanence does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the rise and fall owing to its being concealed by continuity (santati). “The characteristic of pain does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating continuous oppression and owing to its being concealed by the postures (iriyaapatha).” [S: rather than being aware of postures, it is the idea of postures that conceals the truths about the elements as dukkha.. When there is awareness, there’s no idea of posture at all] “The characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements (naanaadhaatu-vinibbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness." [S: When there is an idea of ‘wholes’ such as posture, chariot or self, there is no understanding of dhatus (elements) and no way to understand anatta.] “But when continuity is dissected by laying hold of rise and fall, the characteristic of impermanence appears in accordance with its true essential nature. When the postures are exposed (ugghaa.tita) by keeping in mind continual oppression, the characteristic of pain appears in accordance with its true essential nature. When resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of no-self appears in accordance with its true essential nature. “Herein, the five aggregates (pa~ncakkhandha) are impermanent. Why? Because they rise and fall and change, or be cause of their absence after having been. Risea nd fall and change are the characteristic of impermanence, or mode of alteration (aakaaravikaara) called absence after having been. "But those same five aggregates are painful because of the words ‘what is impermanent is painful’ (S iv 1). Why? Because of continual oppression. The mode of being continually oppressed is the characteristic of pain. "But the same five aggregates are no-self because of the words ‘what is painful is no-self’ (S iv 1). Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self.” [S: ‘no exercising power over them’, neither the khandhas or any ideas about them, such as postures, are at one’s command]. ***** Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125922 From: Ken O Date: Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Rob E I came in after the original quotes, I think, but that is good to hear. Even if cetana alone creates the kamma, cetana that is strong enough to arouse rupas [action in-the-world that affects "others"] is still much worse than cetana that is confined to oneself [mental experience.] K: that is not necessary correct. A citta worse or not depends on the object as well, and not necessary the act. It is not cetana that cause the arisen rupa, it is citta. Also an act to kill does not arise without ill will, so it is not cetana that could start the actions to kill, it has to arise from the roots. Cetana is basically neutral, is good or bad depends on the roots that arise with it. KC > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125923 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. moellerdieter Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi KC, just between: you wrote: ' Also an act to kill does not arise without ill will, so it is not cetana that could start the actions to kill, it has to arise from the roots. Cetana is basically neutral, is good or bad depends on the roots that arise with it. ' well said, KC. Cetana means will, intention , volition, force of action ( kamma). It is the purpose which makes the act wholesome or (when the roots are greed , hate and delusion) unwholesome. The Law of Dependent Origination (D.O.) tells us about the process in detail . One may keep in mind , that orginally D.O. does not refer to kusala or akusala , but shows the problem how the mass of suffering , the rounds of birth and death , is conditioned. The cessation of suffering , means as well the cessation of intention /kamma , which is realized only by the Arahant, having abolished I-delusion/ ignorance. Abhidhamma broaded D.O. by specifying unwholesome and wholesome formations (cetasika) , which 'colours' the citta, or - more simple -which conditions the mood (of mind/consciousness) . with Metta Dieter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125924 From: Ken O Date: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:33 am Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Looking Straight and Looking Away 1 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all In the Commentary to Satipatthana <> In the Dispeller of Delusion <<1748, Furthermore, here also "beneficiality" and (2) "suitability" should be understood as the aforementioned of shrines and so on. 1749 (3) But "Clear comprehension of resort" is the non-abandonment of the meditation subject. Consequently those who have the aggregates, the elements, or the bases as their mediation subject should perform the acts of looking towards and looking away as part of their own respective meditation subjects, while those who have the kasinas etc, as their meditation subject should perform these acts keeping their meditation subjects uppermost in the mind.>> Commentary to Fruits of Recluseship CY. Clear comprehension of non-delusion here (in regard to looking ahead and looking aside) is understanding thus 'Internally there is no self which looks ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'Let me look ahead' at arises, the mind-originated air element arises together with that thought, producing Intimation. Thus through the diffusion of the air element (resulting from) mental activity, the lower eyelid sinks down and the upper eyelid rises up; there is no one who, as it were, opens them up with a device. Then eye-consciousness arises accomplishing the task ol seeing." KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125925 From: Ken O Date: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:48 am Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Looking Straight and Looking Away 2 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all Commentary to Fruits of Recluseship <> KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125926 From: Ken O Date: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:57 am Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Looking Straight and Looking Away 3 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all Commentary to Fruits of Recluseship (2) Adventitiousness CY. When a form has come into the range of the eye door, after the vibrating of the life continuum, the adverting (and subsequent states of consciousness) arise and cease each accomplishing its own task; at the end, impulsion arises. That impulsion is like a visitor at the eye door,which is the house belonging to the previously arisen states of consciousness, such as adverting, etc. Just as it is not proper for a stranger who has entered the house of others in order to ask for something to issue commands when the owners of the house are sitting silently, so it is not proper for that impulsion to be lustful, hating, and deluded in the eye door—which is the house belonging to the states of consciousness such as adverting, etc.—when those states of consciousness themselves are without lust, hatred, and delusion. Thus clear comprehension of non-delusion should be understood by way of adventitiousness (3) Temporariness CY. Those states of consciousness (beginning with adverting and) ending with determining which arise in the eye door, those break up together with their associated phenomena right on the spot (whether they arose). They do not see one another.  Thus they are evanescent and temporary. Therein, when all the people living in a single house have died, it is not proper for the sole survivor, being subject to die that very moment, to delight in singing and dancing; in the same way, when at a single sense door the states of consciousness such as adverting, etc., along with their , to associated phenomena have died right on the spot, it is not proper for the survivor - that is, implusion-being subject to die that very moment, to delight by of lust, hatred, and delusion, Thus clear comprehension of non-delusion should be understood by way of temporariness KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125927 From: Ken O Date: Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:04 am Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Looking Straight and Looking Away 4 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all Commentary to Recluseship <> KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125928 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:49 pm Subject: Bhante Gunaratana dhammasaro Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Good friends all, An e-mail I received: Bhante Gunaratana hospitalized Our prayers are with Bhante Gunaratana (Mindfulness in Plain English) as he undergoes heart surgery today. We will continue to post updates on his recovery via our facebook page as we receive them. We hope you will join us in sending him prayers and good wishes for a safe and speedy recovery. The Bhavana Society's August 26 event at American University has been cancelled. The Triple Event celebration will still take place on October 6 and 7 at the Bhavana Society in West Virginia. ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ .................................... http://www.bhavanasociety.org/main/teacher/bhante_henepola_gunaratana/ If you believe in meditation/prayer, please do so for my good friend Bhante Gunaratana. He always treated me better than I deserved. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (6) #125929 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Steps.... nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah, thank you for all the quotes. I shall put them in a file, since questions on postures keep coming up now and then. Nina. Op 13-aug-2012, om 11:23 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha is pointing out that what we take of postures (through > attachment and wrong view) are actually just various rupas taken > for the body. When we are walking, we think there is a person > taking steps and walking. In fact there are only various rupas > conditioned by cittas - no self, no body, no walking at all. The > Buddha stressed that no matter the time, occasion or activity, > there are only namas and rupas arising and falling away. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125930 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:35 pm Subject: What I heard. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, If one is not aware of naama and ruupa, one hears only stories, names, and one does not know characteristics of realities. If one listens to the Dhamma just a little, it does not help one, because one does not develop understanding oneself. The Buddha spoke about eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, and these are not different from this moment. When one wishes for sati, one thinks only of the name “sati”, and sati does not arise. One should develop one’s own understanding, otherwise one will engage in wrong practice and one’s listening is of no use. If there would not have been the Buddha, there would be no way to understand the characteristics of realities that appear now. When we are listening, understanding and knowing the dhamma that appears now, it is the highest offering to the Buddha. This is the only way leading out of the cycle of birth and death. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (33) #125931 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:05 am Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Bending and Stretching (1) ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all The commentary to Fruits of Recluseship by BB pg 118 <> KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125932 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:11 am Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Bending and Stretching 2 ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all The commentary to Fruits of Recluseship by BB pg 119 <> KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125933 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:19 am Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Wearing Robes ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all The commentary to Fruits of Recluseship by BB pg 120 <> KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125934 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:24 am Subject: Re: Role of sila in satipatthana epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. That is very clear. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > For the person who has heard the teachings and is developing the path, sila will be a support. This person lives at ease with his/her conscience, and avoids rebirth in an unhappy realm (where there is no opportunity to hear the teachings). > > But regardless of how `bad' a person's sila, if there is right understanding of the path this can condition exposure to the teachings in future lifetimes. > > My viewpoint. Hoping you find it clearly stated. That's a very helpful rundown of the role of sila in the development of the path. It will be worthwhile for me to go over it a few more times, as I think it is an important area to clarify. Thanks for spelling it out so clearly. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125935 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:27 am Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Almsbowl ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear all The commentary to Fruits of Recluseship by BB pg 120 and 121 <> KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125936 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:00 pm Subject: Re: Bhante Gunaratana szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Chuck, Thank you for this information. This was my first Dhamma book, I come across when I was 16, Mindfulness in Plain English. It was very inspring, to change my life, like starting with vipassana meditation. Why do we suffer? Because we are born. Now I am thinking this is not so much of meditation in a particular way but developing more and more understanding of 4 NT. Best wishes Lukas > Bhante > Gunaratana hospitalized > > > > > Our prayers are with Bhante Gunaratana > (Mindfulness in Plain English) as he undergoes heart surgery > today. We will continue to post updates on his recovery via our > facebook page as we receive them. We hope you will join us in sending > him prayers and good wishes for a safe and speedy recovery. > > > > The Bhavana Society's August 26 > event at American University has been cancelled. The Triple Event > celebration will still take place on October 6 and 7 at the Bhavana > Society in West Virginia. > > ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ .................................... > > > > http://www.bhavanasociety.org/main/teacher/bhante_henepola_gunaratana/ > > > > If you believe in meditation/prayer, please do so for my good friend > Bhante Gunaratana. He always treated me better than I deserved. Reply | Messages in this Topic (6) #125937 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:05 pm Subject: Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (and Nina) (125911) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Nina. > ... > > > > > R: Do the transgressions interfere with bhavana? > > > > -------- > > > > N: They are contrary to his brahmafaring,.. > > > > > > R: Would this directly stop his development of satipatthana, or would it depend on what other accumulations he had? > =============== J: The question of breach of the vinaya as being a bar to the development of the path is an interesting one. I think much would depend on the nature of the transgression. Minor transgressions, no. But if a monk is living in breach of the fundamental rules of the order (e.g., using money, telling fortunes and pronouncing auspicious dates, not reciting the Patimoka, not observing even the basic sila for a lay person, etc), then I believe the development of the path would not be possible. Of course, in such a case it would be unlikely that there would be any appreciation of the teachings anyway, so it's difficult to say which would be the reason for the other. (The corresponding case for the layperson could be, for example, leading a life devoted to crime, living under false pretences, taking advantage of others who are vulnerable, etc.) > =============== > RE: I would think that if the monks were only interested in development of satipatthana, they would not pay so much attention to the rules of behavior for monks, and would focus more on just being aware in this or that situation. In fact, they would be more like lay people. Why spend all the effort on behaving like a monk if it has no application to the path? If it is just a social institution, then that is fine; then it is just a conventional group with its rules like any other social group. But if there is a relationship between these controlled behaviors and the ability to develop awareness, then I would like to know that this is the case. > =============== J: I think the contrary to what you suggest here would be the case. In my view, an interest in the development of the path does not involve `focussing on just being aware in this or that situation' and ignoring or disregarding one's conventional situation or conventional rules and obligations. After all, even the person who has attained enlightenment does not do this (or do you see it differently?). As regards the person who is a monk, he is a monk because (a) he truly sees the value in eschewing the lay life for a life of contentment with little and (b) he is able to live the monk's life properly with relative ease. If the case were otherwise, he would be unable to maintain the monk's life. He presumably appreciates that the rules make life within the community easier for all (as with conventional laws for the lay person). > =============== > RE: It seems to me that the rules for monks supports concentration and awareness, as well as discipline that allows for paying attention to what is most essential, but that would involve conventional supports for that which is paramatha. > =============== J: Regarding vinaya as support for the development of kusala, the support is, for a given monk, *his own abservance* of the rules, rather than the fact of there being rules. Observance of rules is, as for sila for the lay person, a matter of kusala restraint when an occasion arises that could lead to a breach. So again it comes down to dhammas as condition for other dhammas. Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125938 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ken O, You wrote to Rob K >K: Thanks for bringing up the text. If that is mention, than it will correct. If not, the bodily pain is not just entirely from result of kamma, it can be from other causes like phelgm, cold etc. .... S: Bodily pain - body consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling is vipaka citta, the result of kamma, supported by natural decisive support condition. It's as a result of kamma that coldness or other rupas are experienced through the senses. ... >This is similiar to death, where it is not entirely due to result of kamma, it could be from hunger, thirst etc ... S: Again, cuti citta (death consciousness) just arises as a result of past kamma supported by decisive support condition. Likewise it is wholesome or unwholesome kamma that produce rebirth, patisandhi citta. It is this same kamma that produces the death consciousness in the same life. CMA V #27, 28 "Herein, unwholesome kamma excluding restlessness produces rebirth-linking in the woeful plane...." S: The akusala vipaka in the woeful plane such as the experiencing of hunger, cold, heat and so on is also a result of kamma, so is the death there. "Wholesome kamma of the sense sphere produces rebirth-linking in the sensuous blissful plane, and so too, (it produces) the great resultants in the course of existence......" S: Likewise, the kusala vipaka in this lifetime is a result of past kamma. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (24) #125939 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kenh1 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ken O & Rob E, >________________________________ > From: Ken O >R: Thanks for clarifying that. This makes sense. So the kamma is the same even if the person is unaware of doing anything wrong? > >K: There is a different in in kamma for one who know does it consciously and one who does not. > >The Questions of King Malinda pg 129 Book 1 pg 129, >8. The king said: "Whose Nagasena is the greater demerit - his who sins consciously, or he who sins inadvertently.?' >'He who sins inadvertently, O King has the greater demerit." >"In that case, reverend Sir, we shall punish doubly any of our family or our court who do wrong unintentionaly." >"But what do you think, O King? If one man were to seize hold intentionally a fiery mass of metal glowing with heat, and another were to seize hold of it unintentionally, which would be more burnt?' >"The one who did not know what he was doing." >"Well it is just the same with the man who does wrong." > >K: We have to be careful on the usage of the word intentionally here. It is not in the context of unknowling step on a caterpillar, where there is no intention to kill at all. For the intentionally where meant that the person had the intent to kill and complete the the act knowning that it will result in bad kamma, he still do it for whatever reason he had. The unintentionally means that the person does not know the the result of bad kamma from for the act of killing, he had the intention to kill and completed the act of killing. ... S: Good quote and comment. I'm glad you posted it. As you say, this is not the same as the example of the person unknowingly stepping on a caterpillar, for whom there is no fault, no intention to kill. Here it is pointing to the performing of harm intentionally, such as killing. The Teachings point out that there is more "demerit" when one does not know of the danger of the akusala than when one does. For example, if one believes killing is 'right' and justified, there is greater ignorance and wrong view involved that when one knows it is wrong but goes ahead in anger anyway. Yes, different from how a court of law would see it.... Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125940 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ken O & Rob E, >________________________________ > From: Ken O >K: There are different results from different cetana. Thinking of murdering someone is a cetana through the mind door, this cetana is ill will and will bear kamma result due to the thinking. The completed act of a killing is a cetana through body door that did the killing and will bear kamma result due to the act. ..... S: If we just think about how we'd like to kill someone now, it is not kamma patha, it won't bring any result, as I understand. The dosa and way of thinking just accumulates. This is why we read about the necessary factors for it to bring results, such as the death of the action. As for kinds of kamma and doorways, it's a little more complicated as we read about in STA (commentary to Abhidhammattha Sangaha). For example, when one animal kills another one, it is bodily kamma (kaya kamma) through body door (kaya dvara). This is the same if one deliberately steps on a caterpillar. When there is deliberate planning, it is then mental kamma (mano kamma) executed through body door (kaya dvara), such as if one were to lay a trap to catch the caterpillars. If someone else were ordered to lay a trap and kill the caterpillars, it would then be mano kamma leading to kayo kamma through speech door (vaci dvara). Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125941 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Dhammadharo's sermon. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina, Rob E, Lukas & Azita, It was a nice extract from a talk by Ven Dhammadharo. He knew that whatever accumulations might arise -- good or bad -- the only way was the understanding of present dhammas. ----- Original Message ----- > From: Nina van Gorkom > Don’t fool yourself that, > because you heard Dhamma and you are in good company, defilements, > perhaps quite strong, can’t arise and surprise you, that you are > beyond that. Anything can happen according to conditions, according > to your accumulations, and it is a test of one’s understanding > whether there can be some mindfulness even of those as it were > surprising moments. When defilements arise there are conditions for > them. It is of no use being disappointed or surprised about them. > There is only one way to cope with them: have more understanding of > whatever has arisen. There should not be forgetfulness of lobha. It > is with us nearly all the time in some form or other. It is like an > enemy with the appearance of a friend, very hard to detect. It is > like a friend who speaks nicely, waits upon us, smiles at the right > time. Who would know that that very pleasant, confortable and secure > feeling we have is really an enemy, the cause of all suffering, the > cause of the arising of realities from moment to moment, one after > the other. We may even cling to kusala. Although it brings pleasant > results, it is still impermanent, it is still dukkha. It is anattÃ¥, > nothing abiding, nothing lasting, nothing substantial. > Remind yourself again and again of what the goal is. .... S: Excellent - whatever defilements, whatever kusala - anything can arise by conditions - all impermanent, unsatisfactory and anatta. Btw, we uploaded a talk of Ven Dhammadharo's from Wat Pleng in 1975. It's at the end of the audio set at www.dhammastudygroup.org. Discussions with Ven Dhammadharo (Bangkok, 1975)(1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8). Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125942 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:10 pm Subject: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ken O (& Rob E), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > I was talking to Rob E in mundane level of refrainings and I hope his questions are about mundane one. The three refrainings at supramundane level are all mental factor. ... S: If we are talking about right speech, action and livelihood of the path, whether mundane or supra mundane, these refer to the 3 virati, the 3 abstentions from wrong speech and so on. At moments of mundane path arising, only one of these virati can arise at a time, whereas at the moment of surpramundane path arising, all 3 arise together at that moment when anusaya defilements are eradicated according to the level. These virati are always mental factors, virati cetasikas. ... >I remember some one ask before why only mental for the three refrainings in supramundane level. At that time, I was unable to think of an answer. Then I remember I read somewhere that supramudance mundane citta could only happen in the mind door. Since it is only mind door, the three refrainings at that instance are all mental. .... S: Yes, surpramundane cittas can only arise in the mind-door process. The object is nibbana. In the sense door processes, the object is always one of the 7 sense objects. I appreciate all your posting, quotes and reflections. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125943 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:29 pm Subject: What I heard. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, Acharn Sujin: Dukkha and sukha (happiness) have gone already, now there is this moment. If someone thinks: ”I will not meet this person again in a next life”, it is wrong thinking. There is no person now, nor in the future. Only in this life there is this person and in the next life there must be another person. If one is annoyed with a certain person, we should consider that there are only realities arising and falling away. Even “I”, are only realities arising and falling away. After seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions there are cittas with like or dislike while we think of situations, of this or that person. In reality there is only this short moment of citta. When we close our eyes, no person appears and when we open our eyes there is always this or that person. When we listen to the teachings we should all the time consider what we heard, again and again, in all details. What appears through the eyes is only a dhamma. Through the eyes colour appears. We should not forget this again, otherwise we are absorbed in the nimitta, the image of a whole, and the details of things. Attasa~n~naa is the wrong perception (or remembrance) of self. We believe that there is a person or a thing. How does this belief arise? On account of what appears through the eyes we enjoy different colours, shape and form. What we take for a person are only different colours. Pa~n~naa can begin to consider realities and understand what only appears through eyesense. Then there will eventually be less attachment to person, to self. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (33) #125944 From: Luraya Lukas Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:31 pm Subject: ajahn naeb luraya87 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email hej!! recently i read a discourse from ajahn naeb (translated by ajahn sujin) and i have got one practical question. ajahn naeb said: "The practitioner must first understand thoroughly mental states and matter, otherwise, insight cannot occur. during development of insight we must be aware of mental states and matter, so that we may perceive their characteristics. Only after we have thoroughly understood mental states and matter, should we commence with the development of awareness of them." my question is how one undertands mental states and matter thoroughly thank you! luraya ________________________________ From: sarah abbott To: "dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Dhammadharo's sermon. Dear Nina, Rob E, Lukas & Azita, It was a nice extract from a talk by Ven Dhammadharo. He knew that whatever accumulations might arise -- good or bad -- the only way was the understanding of present dhammas. ----- Original Message ----- > From: Nina van Gorkom > Don’t fool yourself that, > because you heard Dhamma and you are in good company, defilements, > perhaps quite strong, can’t arise and surprise you, that you are > beyond that. Anything can happen according to conditions, according > to your accumulations, and it is a test of one’s understanding > whether there can be some mindfulness even of those as it were > surprising moments. When defilements arise there are conditions for > them. It is of no use being disappointed or surprised about them. > There is only one way to cope with them: have more understanding of > whatever has arisen. There should not be forgetfulness of lobha. It > is with us nearly all the time in some form or other. It is like an > enemy with the appearance of a friend, very hard to detect. It is > like a friend who speaks nicely, waits upon us, smiles at the right > time. Who would know that that very pleasant, confortable and secure > feeling we have is really an enemy, the cause of all suffering, the > cause of the arising of realities from moment to moment, one after > the other. We may even cling to kusala. Although it brings pleasant > results, it is still impermanent, it is still dukkha. It is anattÃ¥, > nothing abiding, nothing lasting, nothing substantial. > Remind yourself again and again of what the goal is. .... S: Excellent - whatever defilements, whatever kusala - anything can arise by conditions - all impermanent, unsatisfactory and anatta. Btw, we uploaded a talk of Ven Dhammadharo's from Wat Pleng in 1975. It's at the end of the audio set at www.dhammastudygroup.org. Discussions with Ven Dhammadharo (Bangkok, 1975)(1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8). Metta Sarah ====== ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125945 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:52 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125880) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: I think that roughly, leaving aside as usual the vastness of my ignorance, there are two major Orthodox interpretations in Theravada, one that is based in Abhidhamma and one that is based in sutta. > =============== J: I have not previously heard of a second orthodox view within Theravada. In fact, I'd have thought that 2 orthodox views within the same school would be a contradiction in terms :-)). To my understanding, the orthodox Theravada view is that found in the Pali Canon, which of course includes the commentaries in addition to the 3 Pitakas (Sutta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma). In my view it is not correct to characterise the orthodox view as `based in Abhidhamma' rather than in sutta, since it is based on all 3 Pitakas. And in any event there is a vast overlap of material (and no inconsistency) between those 2 Pitakas. > =============== > RE: Secondly, regarding "only moments of insight" represent the development of the NEP, I think that is a very restrictive point of view. It doesn't allow for all the influences and supports that cause those moments of insight to arise. ... It's like saying that only the moments when you get an "A" on a test are "school." Everything else has nothing to do with "school." All the moments of learning, almost learning, being in class, doing homework, getting bad grades, *and* getting "A"s are all school, not just the "A"s. > =============== J: Well, taking your school analogy, assume a school system in which only the exam results count for the end-of year grade. Now it could be said that all the classwork, homework, cramming, etc, should also be regarded as part of getting the grade, since that is what makes the achieving of the exam grade possible.. But it's a question of whether it's really helpful to adopt that terminology and approach. The official (school) line is that it all comes down to the exam, and that of course is indisputably so. Note that this is not to say that the rest counts for nothing, as clearly taking the exam without the rest would be a hard ask. But it states what counts most directly. To take the analogy further, the actual prerequisites under the exam system could be described as acquiring the necessary knowledge of the matters set out in the syllabus, rather than attending classes and all those other bits and pieces that are the means by which the necessary knowledge is gained under that system. By the way, I don't think you've told us yet what you see as being the main conditions for developing the path, those conditions without which the path cannot be developed. Would you care to share your views on this question? Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125946 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ajahn naeb upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Luraya (and Nina) - In a message dated 8/15/2012 8:39:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, luraya87@... writes: hej!! recently i read a discourse from ajahn naeb (translated by ajahn sujin) and i have got one practical question. ajahn naeb said: "The practitioner must first understand thoroughly mental states and matter, otherwise, insight cannot occur. during development of insight we must be aware of mental states and matter, so that we may perceive their characteristics. Only after we have thoroughly understood mental states and matter, should we commence with the development of awareness of them." my question is how one undertands mental states and matter thoroughly thank you! luraya ============================ I think your question is a good one. I would guess the answer is by studying and contemplating the texts" and relating that to what one observes "in the moment". Two other questions I have are the following: 1) How thorough need the "thorough" understanding be, and 2) Did Ajahn Sujin approve of Ajahn Naeb's recommended practice of sitting without moving and noticing the dissatisfaction (and even outright suffering) that arises as a consequence and the shifting that occurs in reaction to escape that? (For, after all, that practice is intentional activity.) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125947 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:04 pm Subject: Re: ajahn naeb sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Luraya, Great to hear from you and looking forward to meeting you in Poland very much! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Luraya Lukas wrote: > my question is how one undertands mental states and matter thoroughly .... S: Great question! It has to begin now (only ever 'now') with the direct understanding of what is real. For example, usually we think we see people, trees and computers. Actually, at this moment, there is just the seeing (a naama or mental experience) of what is visible (the ruupa or matter). There are no people, trees or computers except in our imagination as objects of thinking which follows the moments of seeing of visible objects. By becoming more familiar with and directly understanding visible object when it is seen or seeing consciousness, or sound, hearing and other naamas and ruupas, mental and physical realities, the thorough understanding will develop. This is rather brief as I'm going to sleep now! Others may add more. I know that Ajahn Sujin will really appreciate your good, practical questions as well when we meet you. I suggested to Lukas before that you should both make lists for the discussions! Hope you had a nice trip in the Alps. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125948 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah That is what Buddha had said that pain and death are not all cause by kamma.   What you quoted is about rebirth linking or formation, that is kamma.  Not all life ended due to kamma, it could be untimely causes which are not caused by kamma.  thanks KC > > >Dear Ken O, > >You wrote to Rob K > >>K: Thanks for bringing up the text. If that is mention, than it will correct. If not, the bodily pain is not just entirely from result of kamma, it can be from other causes like phelgm, cold etc.  >.... >S: Bodily pain - body consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling is vipaka citta, the result of kamma, supported by natural decisive support condition. It's as a result of kamma that coldness or other rupas are experienced through the senses. >... > >>This is similiar to death, where it is not entirely due to result of kamma, it could be from hunger, thirst etc >... >S: Again, cuti citta (death consciousness) just arises as a result of past kamma supported by decisive support condition. Likewise it is wholesome or unwholesome kamma that produce rebirth, patisandhi citta. It is this same kamma that produces the death consciousness in the same life. > >CMA V #27, 28 >"Herein, unwholesome kamma excluding restlessness produces rebirth-linking in the woeful plane...." > >S: The akusala vipaka in the woeful plane such as the experiencing of hunger, cold, heat and so on is also a result of kamma, so is the death there. > >"Wholesome kamma of the sense sphere produces rebirth-linking in the sensuous blissful plane, and so too, (it produces) the great resultants in the course of existence......" > >S: Likewise, the kusala vipaka in this lifetime is a result of past kamma. > >Metta > >Sarah >===== > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (24) #125949 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah I will take Visud definition For this is said in the Patisambhida: “What is virtue? There is virtue as volition, virtue as consciousness-concomitant, virtue as restraint, [7] virtue as non-transgression” (Patis I 44). Herein,virtue as volition is the volition present in one who abstains from killing living things, etc., or in one who fulfils the practice of the duties. Virtue as consciousness- concomitant is the abstinence in one who abstains from killing living things, and so on. Furthermore,virtue as volition is the seven volitions [that accompany the first seven] of the [ten] courses of action (kamma) in one who abandons the killing of living things, and so on.  Virtue as consciousness-concomitant is the [three remaining] states consisting of non-covetousness, non-ill will, and right view, stated in the way beginning, “Abandoning covetousness, he dwells with a mind free from covetousness” (D I 71). The other two definitions could be found in Visud thanks KC Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125950 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) ashkenn2k Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah It is better not to think on how to kill someone because it is rooted from ill will, and is kamma patha Expositor, pg 133 to 134 "That which destroys welfare and happiness is 'ill-will'. It has the characteristics mark of the mental fault of injury to others. The degree of offence is in the case of harsh speech. Its two constituents factors are; another being and the thought of doing harm. Mere anger with another being does not reach that distinctive stage of the course of action, as long as there is no destructive thought, such as "Would he were cut off and destroyed" KC > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125951 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ajahn naeb nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Luraya, good question. Op 15-aug-2012, om 14:31 heeft Luraya Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > recently i read a discourse from ajahn naeb (translated by ajahn > sujin) and i have got one practical question. > ajahn naeb said: > "The > practitioner must first understand thoroughly mental states and > matter, otherwise, insight cannot occur. during development of > insight we must be aware of mental states and matter, so that we may > perceive their characteristics. > > Only after we have thoroughly > understood mental states and matter, should we commence with the > development of awareness of them." > --------- N: First there must be intellectual understanding of what naama is, a reality that experiences something, and what ruupa is, a reality that does not experience anything. We have to know that seeing is just the experience of what appears through the eyes, and that thinking of persons and thinks that follow after is not seeing, but thinking. Thus, there should be intellectual understanding, but this should concern what appears now. It is not a matter of just reading classifications, because then we are likely to cling to mere words and terms. As Sarah said: N: And this is another stage of understanding stemming from direct awareness. Understanding stemming from listening should be firm and then there will be more understanding of what one has heard. When this grows there will be conditions for direct awareness and understanding and in this way understanding will become more thorough. There will be understanding of characteristics of realities that can be known without the need to think of terms and names. No self who can promote this in anyway, it is only the work of pa~n~naa. It is necessary to consider, again, and again and again, as Kh Sujin says. We should often consider the reality right now, such as seeing or hearing which arise time and again. Seeing does not esperience this dear person in front of us, but this is very, very difficult. It is a long time progress, and khanti, patience is necessary. Khanti is the highest ascetism as we read in the exhortation to the Pa.timokkha. (Du wirst sich sehr gut verstehen mit Gabi. Sie hat viel Dhamma gehört von Kh Sujin.) ----- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125952 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ajahn naeb nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard and Luraya, Op 15-aug-2012, om 14:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I think your question is a good one. I would guess the answer is by > studying and contemplating the texts" and relating that to what one > observes > "in the moment". ------ N: Yes, always this moment now! ------- > Two other questions I have are the following: > > 1) How thorough need the "thorough" understanding be, ----- N: there are degrees of understanding, first the level of pariyatti. intellectual, but in relation to this moment.Later on: more direct understanding. Never enough until arahatship when pa~n~naa has eradicated all defilements. ----- > H: > 2) Did Ajahn Sujin approve of Ajahn Naeb's recommended practice of > sitting without moving and noticing the dissatisfaction (and even > outright > suffering) that arises as a consequence and the shifting that > occurs in > reaction to escape that? (For, after all, that practice is > intentional activity.) ----- N: Oh, let us not throw in names of persons. As to the postures and the "posture pain" as I call it, I can quote from Kh Sujin's Survey: < Questioner: I have heard that the postures conceal dukkha. Please, could you explain this? Sujin: All conditioned realities have the characteristic of dukkha. They arise and fall away, they are impermanent and therefore, they cannot be a real refuge, they are dukkha. Thus, dukkha is not merely painful feeling. When it is said that the postures conceal dukkha, one should understand that this refers not just to painful feeling but to the characteristic of dukkha inherent in all conditioned realities. One may believe that there is no dukkha when, at this very moment, one is sitting, lying down, standing or walking without being stiff. The belief that the change of one posture into another one conceals dukkha is not paññå that clearly realizes the arising and falling away of nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas. Nåma and rúpa arise together when one assumes different postures and dukkha is concealed so long as one does not know the characteristic of dukkha of one rúpa and of one nåma at a time, as they arise and fall away. When one asks people who have just assumed a new posture whether there is dukkha, they will answer that there is not. If they confuse painful feeling with the truth of dukkha, how can they understand that the postures conceal dukkha? There must be dukkha, otherwise it cannot be said that the postures conceal dukkha. Any idea of a posture or of the whole body, no matter there is painful feeling or not, conceals the characteristic of dukkha. So long as one has not realized the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa one does not understand the truth of dukkha. If a person does not develop paññå in order to understand nåma and rúpa as they are, he has wrong understanding of dukkha. He may believe that he knows the truth of dukkha when he ponders over his painful feeling, dukkha vedanå, caused by stiffness, before he changes into a new posture in order to relieve his pain. He cannot know the truth of dukkha so long as he does not discern the characteristic of non-self of nåma and rúpa. This is the case if he does not know the nåma which sees and colour appearing through the eyes, the nåma which hears and sound appearing through the ears, the nåma which smells and odour, the nåma which tastes and flavour, the nåma which experiences tangible object and tangible object, the nåma which thinks, happiness, sorrow and other realities. Also the reality which thinks that it will change posture is not self, it should be realized as a type of nåma which arises and then falls away. If one does not know this one will not be able to understand the characteristic of dukkha. Only if one is naturally aware of nåma and rúpa as they appear one at a time, paññå can develop stage by stage, so that the noble Truth of dukkha can be realized. > < Paññå should clearly understand the characteristics of realities. It is impossible to enter the gateway to nibbåna if the characteristic of nåma is not known, and if only the postures of sitting, lying down, standing or walking are known. If someone knows which posture he has assumed, he has only remembrance or perception of the rúpas that arise together and constitute a “whole” of a posture. He does not realize the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, one at a time, as they arise and appear naturally,just as they are, through the different doorways and then fall away.> -------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125953 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:46 am Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > >> S: Kamma patha is always mental - it refers specifically to cetana cetasika (intention/kamma) that is of the degree that it conditions particular kinds of speech or acts through the body, i.e rupas conditioned by those akusala cittas. > > > >R: So the rupas that arise are the result of how strong the akusala cittas are. And the akusala cittas cause the kamma. > .... > S: It is the akusala (or kusala) cetana that is the kamma. Yes, as discussed, an idea of killing is not the same as the idea which is sufficiently strong to prompt action or an order at that time. I am thinking of this as something akin to the difference between thinking "Boy I'd like to kill that person," and "I am going to kill that person," with the intent to carry it out. Obviously the two are quite different, and the person who intends to actually kill is a very different "kammic place" than someone who has the passing feeling or thought without a real intention to carry it out. > >> Same with dosa, intentions to harm and so on - all dhammas can only be known when they arise... > > > >R: In the midst of action, I guess one can focus on the mental qualities that accompany the act. > ... > S: It's not a matter of "focus" but of understanding and awareness which can arise anytime, anywhere, quite unexpectedly if one has heard about dhammas and accumulated understanding. Leaving aside the question of "focusing," what I was really saying was that when we see action that seems very negative, the cetana that is involved is more significant than the appearance of the action. Still, if someone is killed, I doubt the dead person is helped very much if the intention to kill was a bit less akusala or a bit more. But the fact that it goes over the line, that it is the kind of intention/volition that really wants to harm another being, makes it a stronger level of kamma patha. If you think to yourself, "that peson is so annoying," it is akusala, but if you intend to harm the other person by telling them how annoying they are and hurting their feelings or embarrassing them, that intention to harm that is realized through the speech act makes it a stronger degree of akusala kamma patha. I think what you have clarified for me is that in those cases where the stronger akusala leads to a physical act or an act of speech, it is the cetana that is the more or less powerful kamma patha, not the rupas that are conditioned by the akusala kamma patha, which are a result of akusala rather than a cause of akusala. There is a story from Yogananda's "Autobiography of a Yogi" that is sort of parallel to this. When Yogananada is with his teacher he lifts his hand in anger to kill an annoying mosquito, then realizes it's 'bad karma' and thinks better of it, lowering his hand. The teacher says to him "You've already had the thought, you may as well kill it." While we might not agree with that conclusion, which I don't think was meant literally, I think the point he was making is similar to yours - it's the cetana that counts. Like now, there can be awareness of sound or visible object without any prior thought or focus. Same "in the midst of action". I guess awareness of the namas involved at those moments is a more advanced understanding? > As for the point raised about whether it is only in the Abhidhamma that kamma (of any kind) is shown to be just cetana and kamma patha indicates cetana which manifests in completed acts through body, speech and mind, here's a sutta for your reference on Kamma. (I'll include the Pali too for those interested): > > http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/anguttara/06/an06-063.html > > > Nibbedhika Sutta ... > "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." That is a good quote - I am wondering what is the difference in Abhidhamma terms between 'kamma created through the mind door' or 'kamma created through the body door' as Ken O. has been talking about? It seems kind of contradictory to the idea that the kamma is only cetana, only mental, or is at least confusing to me... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125954 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:38 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Bhante Gunaratana dhammasaro Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Good friend Lukas, Sincere warm thanks for the positive affirmation; a rare occurrence for me on this forum... Yes, it was either the first or second book I received... the first book was from a Royal Thai Army medical doctor (MD) attending a special course at the University of Pennsylvania Hospital in Philadelphia, PA USA. The second book was from another Thai MD. He was visiting Thai friends in the Philadelphia area after completing a special course at Stanford University in California. This was sometime in the early 1990's... Over the years, I have been most fortunate to meet Bhante Gunaratana several times at Wat Thai Washington DC, both as a monk and as a layperson. Thanks again for the positive affirmation. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck <...> Dear Chuck, Thank you for this information. This was my first Dhamma book, I come across when I was 16, Mindfulness in Plain English. It was very inspring, to change my life, like starting with vipassana meditation. Why do we suffer? Because we are born. Now I am thinking this is not so much of meditation in a particular way but developing more and more understanding of 4 NT. Best wishes Lukas Reply | Messages in this Topic (6) #125955 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, (& Ken O) >________________________________ > From: Robert E >> S: It is the akusala (or kusala) cetana that is the kamma. Yes, as discussed, an idea of killing is not the same as the idea which is sufficiently strong to prompt action or an order at that time. > >R;I am thinking of this as something akin to the difference between thinking "Boy I'd like to kill that person," and "I am going to kill that person," with the intent to carry it out. Obviously the two are quite different, and the person who intends to actually kill is a very different "kammic place" than someone who has the passing feeling or thought without a real intention to carry it out. ... S: Yes, exactly. "I wish that political tyrant was out of the way" - akusala, dosa, but not kamma patha. No results. And then planning, plotting and attempting to kill, but being unsuccessful would be partial kamma patha, but not complete. So different degrees.... More later...on my way out.... Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125956 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:06 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E (125517) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: Not sure how appropriate the analogy of dominoes is. In the case of the cittas of a stream, the preceding citta must fall away completely before the succeeding one can arise (and that falling away is one of the conditioning factors). > > Rob E: Do you think you can explain to me how this actually works? How does the 'complete falling away' of a citta condition the arising of a new one? Is there some sort of cetana lurking between cittas that causes a new citta to arise when the other has fallen away? I don't see how it is possible, but obviously I'm missing something. In ordinary terminology, something that has 'fallen away completely' leaving nothing behind cannot condition anything, and another citta cannot arise out of nothing. So it seems to me that the previous citta in some way is transmitting its 'info' to the next one while it is still here, but I have no idea how this takes place, either before or after the falling away. If you could explain this to me technically, I would really appreciate it. > =============== J: As regards how the transmission of accumulations from one citta to the next "actually works", this is not something that is anywhere explained as far as I know. Curiosity would no doubt like to know, but whether that information is necessary for the development of the path is another matter. No matter how much detail we are given, there will always be a further set of `how' and `why' questions that could be asked. But we have to know what needs to be directly understood in order for the path to be developed, what does not need to be directly understood but can be understood intellectually or by inference, and what does not need not be known because it is not information or knowledge that is essential to the development of the path. As regards how the the 'complete falling away' of one citta conditions the arising of the next one, all I can offer on that is that if "the way things are" is that only 1 citta of a given stream of cittas can arise at any time, then obviously citta A must fall away before citta B can arise, and in that sense it can be said that the falling away of citta A is a condition for the arising of citta B. Do we need to know anything more than that? > =============== > Rob E: I can believe there are a number of laws and conditioning elements that cause the next citta to arise, but I have no conception of how the previous citta is able to relate to the next one when they don't exist at all at the same time, and there is nothing left in between to communicate between them. > > However, whatever the explanation is, the fact remains that an enormous amount of what existed in the previous citta is transmitted to the next one, via accumulations, latent tendencies, sanna, etc. Is that not correct? > =============== J: As regards "how the previous citta is able to relate to the next one when they don't exist at all at the same time, and there is nothing left in between to communicate between them", it's true that the texts say, on the one hand, that all the accumulated tendencies and all previous sanna are passed on from one citta to the next and, on the other hand, that the preceding citta falls completely away before the succeeding citta arises. I'm afraid I have no idea as to how this passing on occurs, nor do I think it particularly helpful to try to work it out. Perhaps at some stage in the development of the path it becomes apparent whether or not this is the case. In the meantime, as far as I'm concerned, it's a hypothesis to be kept in mind, something that is neither taken for granted nor discounted. We should not be too concerned about knowing what is beyond our capacity to know :-)) Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125957 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:14 pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah > Beautifully written below, Thanks, but irrelevant to Dhamma. Beautiful writing related to Dhamma is to be mistrusted until proven relevant. Some relevant points in what I wrote, though..some crapola as well, which I will leave unidentified in case anyone found it inspirational... > thx for sharing...... This is relevant. I note objectively my tendency to keep coming back here again and again and sharing. There is lobha involved in DSG addiction, but there are also kusala factors in there somewhere, including generosity. Always thankful for those blessed forms of dana which don't involve $$$. >all ideas, all dreams, all fantasies through the mind-door.... Yes, the challenging and rewarding trip already shrinking in the rear-view mirror, but it was a dream at the time too. Understanding that our daily life is almost always as much of a dream as those dreams we have when we are sleeping is very important, a life-changer... You and others showed a lot of interest in my trip so I will share a few points. My mother was more sedate than last year, a benefit of a change of medication as much as anything. I enjoyed spending time on the special floor where Alzheimer and other tough cases live, my father goes up there every late afternoon to have supper with my mother. On the first day I was jet-lagged so indulged in a stiff gin and tonic before going up, and that was a wise decision. I was a bit of a hit up there, my father commented, as always recently, on my friendliness. He also asked a lot about my religion, and my answer this time was a bit different from last, I am not as devout a "Buddhist" as I was before. But we had good talks. We went for a walk to a local park, the first time he had made it that far this year. I dare say he was empowered by my visit, and yes, that is a story, but the reality was kusala factors at work, mixed with all the lobha and man about wanting to have a successful visit and make a good impression etc. I have some photos to upload, will see if I can figure it out, if not I will send them to someone (James?) and ask them to do it. Also on the trip that sudden arrival of shingles. I am a person who is very big on health and fitness, but am also aware that health and fitness are ephemeral freak occurrences rather than something to be expected and attached to, so I was not surprised or upset. ( Fortunately, the pain was not too severe, and also fortunately I have some good "meditation" techniques (visualization? yoga?) for dealing with pain. I think we should all have access to those kind of techniques. As I said to Rob K some weeks back, it is not my opinion that intellectual understanding of Dhamma is enough to deal with some of life's harder shocks, relying on intellectual understanding of Dhamma may lead to lobha-rooted exploitation of the Dhamma, in my opinion. Best to let one's inevitable lobha for freedom from pain to feed elsewhere, in my opinion. But I may see things differently any minute now... I did really appreciate knowing Dhamma friends at DSG where kind of supporting me out there somewhere during my trip. DSG has become an indispensable part of my lobh...I mean life. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125958 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What characteristics do concepts have? philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Azita > azita:not sure what you mean by 'not experienced directly thro mind door'? I'm not sure either. I was trying to directly reference what Nina wrote, that ideas such as world peace are "not directly experienced", only dhammas with characteristics are "directly experienced," not concepts. I remember Scott was quite persistent on some inconsistencies he found in the explanation of concepts as object etc, perhaps it was this sort of thing. He always insisted on (insists on?) as much technical accuracy as possibly, and I feel the same way now. Dhamma is not Dhamma unless it is strictly and precisely accurate in line with the texts, especially Abhidhamma (in my opinion.) > I think it goes like this: vittika and vicara arise with cittas [except the sense door cognitions like seeing and mayb some others - will have to check abhidhamma] so these two cetasikas arise in javana processes in both sense door and mind door. Sense door processes have only realities as object however mind door processes can have both realities and non realities[concepts] as object. > Therefore concepts are objects of mind door. Mayb its not this simple as there are lots of other cetasikas that arise as well. > Its interesting cos I'm not sure if I've got this right, will look forward to Nina's comment. Ph:. I think we have established elsewhere that concepts can be object of panna (Scott protested on this point, if I recall correctly) so how can it be said that they are "not directly experienced." Something is inconsistent there, maybe Nina would like to change "not directly experienced?" I will go now and read her reply to you (us.) Phil > > patience, courage and good cheer > azita > Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125959 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and what I heard. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina (and Azita and all) > ------- > > Ph: the idea of leaving the summer house is papanca a kind of spin- > > off produced by thinking..but not experienced directly through the > > the mind door? So how is it experienced? > > > ------- > N: It is a story one can think of. A situation, thus, a concept. Not > a reality directly known through the mind-door. > -------- But it can be an object of panna, right. It can therefore be experienced but not "directly experienced?" Thanks. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125960 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:56 pm Subject: Re: Bhante Gunaratana szmicio Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Chuck, Very nice. I can add that I was looking for this book recently in German, because I wanted to take one chapter on introduction to vipassana and give it to my friend's mother since she only speaks German. Unfortunatelly i couldnt find German version. There is really good chapter on why this is good to practice meditation and what is that. I think this is really good introduction for people who doesnt know anything about it and great encourage to start with, to start the path of spirituality, to care of our life that is acctualy nothing else but sufferning. Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: > > Good friend Lukas, > > Sincere warm thanks for the positive affirmation; a rare occurrence for me on this forum... > > Yes, it was either the first or second book I received... the first book was from a Royal Thai Army medical doctor (MD) attending a special course at the University of Pennsylvania Hospital in Philadelphia, PA USA. The second book was from another Thai MD. He was visiting Thai friends in the Philadelphia area after completing a special course at Stanford University in California. This was sometime in the early 1990's... > > Over the years, I have been most fortunate to meet Bhante Gunaratana several times at Wat Thai Washington DC, both as a monk and as a layperson. > > Thanks again for the positive affirmation. > > peace... > > yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, > > Chuck > <...> > > > Dear Chuck, > > Thank you for this information. This was my first Dhamma book, I come across when I was 16, Mindfulness in Plain English. It was very inspring, to change my life, like starting with vipassana meditation. > > Why do we suffer? Because we are born. Now I am thinking this is not so much of meditation in a particular way but developing more and more understanding of 4 NT. > > > > Best wishes > > Lukas > Reply | Messages in this Topic (6) #125961 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:02 pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi again >I have some photos to upload, will see if I can figure it out, if not I will send them to someone (James?) and ask them to do it. I did it, but they came out sideways. Maybe somebody can fix that...thanks. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125962 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:18 pm Subject: Re: ajahn naeb philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Luraya Nice to see you here, Lukas is such an important Dhamma friend to me and you are such an important Dhamma friend for him, so that means, well....I don't know what that means. > my question is how one undertands mental states and matter thoroughly > > thank you! I was very impressed to hear talks from India 2007 (or maybe 2004?) in which A.Sujin stressed again and again that we are not able to understand mental states as clearly as we would like to think. Until we know nama from rupa, the idea of sorting out, for example, kusala and akusala nama is beyond us. This came up very clearly in one talk in which a woman asked her why she (the woman) cried when she visited holy sites, was it kusala or akusala, and A.Sujin answered very clearly that there is no way to know that until we know nama from rupa, we will just be thinking and speculating. In another talk from a few years ago, A.Sujin clearly said that it is harder for us to know nama than rupa, nama is more subtle. I thought at the time she was right, and I still think she is right, but when I asked about it this year in Thailand, she said no, no way to say which is more subtle (To Sarah's evident satisfaction, wink wink.) Anyways, I do think it is true that until we know nama from rupa (which of course isn't as easy as people would think) we will not really know our mind states, and it will just be thinking and speculating, usually rooted in lobha. On the other hand, I am in favor of sitting (meditating) and "watching mind states come and go" as formal meditators would say. In fact (in my opinion) it is all lobha and mona at work, but I believe it is good to have forms of lobha that help us not get swept away by powerful, upsetting mind states. For example, for Lukas, addicted to drugs and alcohol, I think it would be good to experiment with "meditating on the breath" and other forms of lobha-rooted (for us, in this day and age) practices so that he can have forms of lobha that are less dangerous and destructive than drug addiction. During my recent trip to Canada, I had both alcohol and marijuana on several occasions, but again found that neither are as satisfying as the pleasant mind states (rooted in lobha) that I can achieve quite easily (after lots of practice over the years) through what is commonly called "meditation." Lukas says he has not meditated and years, and it could be that his faith in Dhamma and understanding of Dhamma (due to conditions) is enough to allow him to overcome drug and alcohol addiction, but I am still worried about him somewhat because drug and alcohol addiction are very powerful monsters and all kinds of tools and weapons are necessary to fight them and defeat them. Ok, that was off topic, but a chance to write to you, Lukas' dear friend. I know from the death of my cousin that friends are the a difference in either succeeding or failing to defeat the addictions of their friends. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125963 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:04 pm Subject: Re: ajahn naeb philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi again Luraya The following was messy. > Ok, that was off topic, but a chance to write to you, Lukas' dear friend. I know from the death of my cousin that friends are the a difference in either succeeding or failing to defeat the addictions of their friends. I meant to say that when people are fighting powerful addictions, their friends can make an important contribution, they can help a lot. In the end friends can't defeat those addictions, nobody can defeat those addictions, only conditions beyond our control can defeat those addictions, but the support of friends can be an important condition for success, I think. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125964 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:40 pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil, fixed, please check. Best wishes, pt > I did it, but they came out sideways. Maybe somebody can fix that...thanks. Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125965 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:50 pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Thanks pt. phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Phil, fixed, please check. Best wishes, pt > > > I did it, but they came out sideways. Maybe somebody can fix that...thanks. > Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125966 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:52 pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil, A clarification.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Beautifully written below, > > Thanks, but irrelevant to Dhamma. Beautiful writing related to Dhamma is to be mistrusted until proven relevant. ... S: What I meant was "good dhamma content very well expressed". When the Dhamma is well expressed in one's own words, it can be very helpful for others as I thought your message was. ... >Some relevant points in what I wrote, though..some crapola as well, which I will leave unidentified in case anyone found it inspirational... > > > thx for sharing...... > > This is relevant. I note objectively my tendency to keep coming back here again and again and sharing. There is lobha involved in DSG addiction, but there are also kusala factors in there somewhere, including generosity. Always thankful for those blessed forms of dana which don't involve $$$. ..... S: :-) yes, always opportunities to share, to give in one way or other... ... > >all ideas, all dreams, all fantasies through the mind-door.... > > > Yes, the challenging and rewarding trip already shrinking in the rear-view mirror, but it was a dream at the time too. Understanding that our daily life is almost always as much of a dream as those dreams we have when we are sleeping is very important, a life-changer... .... S: Agreed. Thanks for sharing more about your trip. Glad it went well for the most part and that you were able to spend some precious 'quality' time with your father and that the time with your mother was easier. I'm sure your family really appreciate your visits a lot. ... > I did really appreciate knowing Dhamma friends at DSG where kind of supporting me out there somewhere during my trip. DSG has become an indispensable part of my lobh...I mean life. ..... S: :-) Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125967 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken O & Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: >K: ' Also an act to kill does not arise without ill will, so it is not cetana that could start the actions to kill, it has to arise from the roots. Cetana is basically neutral, is good or bad depends on the roots that arise with it. ' > >D: well said, KC. ... S: Root condition is very important. However, the cetasikas that arise together also condition each other by sahajata, mutuality and other conditions. The nature of akusala cetana is very different from that of kusala cetana. Alberto quoted the following before: >The four immaterial [nàma] khandhas are condition, as co-nascent / as mutual / as dependence / as association / as presence and as non-disappearance condition, for each other. <....> >CSCD pàli: http://www.tipitaka.org/romn -> tipitaka > abhidhamma > 1. patthàna > 2. paccayaniddeso] **** Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125968 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:39 pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Thanks pt. > > phil > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi Phil, fixed, please check. Best wishes, pt > > > > > I did it, but they came out sideways. Maybe somebody can fix that...thanks. ... S: OK, now I get it - a lovely set of photos - especially the "significant others". Your mother looks so happy to have you by her side. (No need to tell me "irrelevant to the Dhamma" - any reality, anytime is dhamma:)) Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125969 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:45 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Looking Straight and Looking Away 1 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken O, Alex & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Commentary to Fruits of Recluseship > CY. Clear comprehension of non-delusion here (in regard to looking ahead and looking aside) is understanding thus 'Internally there is no self which looks ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'Let me look ahead' at arises, the mind-originated air element arises together with that thought, producing Intimation. Thus through the diffusion of the air element (resulting from) mental activity, the lower eyelid sinks down and the upper eyelid rises up; there is no one who, as it were, opens them up with a device. Then eye-consciousness arises accomplishing the task ol seeing." .... S: A good quote - 'looking ahead', just citta produced intimation (kaya-vinnatti)....no self at all, seeing consciousness experiencing visible object and so on.... Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125970 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:05 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Looking Straight and Looking Away 3 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ken O, Just reading more of the good quotes you provided.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Commentary to Fruits of Recluseship > > (2) Adventitiousness > CY. When a form has come into the range of the eye door, after the vibrating of the life continuum, the adverting (and subsequent states of consciousness) arise and cease each accomplishing its own task; at the end, impulsion arises. That impulsion is like a visitor at the eye door,which is the house belonging to the previously arisen states of consciousness, such as adverting, etc. Just as it is not proper for a stranger who has entered the house of others in order to ask for something to issue commands when the owners of the house are sitting silently, so it is not proper for that impulsion to be lustful, hating, and deluded in the eye door"which is the house belonging to the states of consciousness such as adverting, etc."when those states of consciousness themselves are without > lust, hatred, and delusion. Thus clear comprehension of non-delusion should be understood by way of adventitiousness .... S: The proper behavior of visitors or strangers.... reminds me of the Pabhassara ( Luminous) Sutta and the onset of "adventitious defilements" following the 'pure' (pabhassara) cittas: From the Pabhassara Sutta: "Luminous, monks, is the mind.1 And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2} http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.049.than.html ... > (3) Temporariness > CY. Those states of consciousness (beginning with adverting and) ending with determining which arise in the eye door, those break up together with their associated phenomena right on > the spot (whether they arose). They do not see one another. Thus they are evanescent and temporary. Therein, when all the people living in a single house have died, it is not proper for the sole survivor, being subject to die that very moment, to delight in singing and dancing; in the same way, when at a single sense door the states of consciousness such as adverting, etc., along with their , to associated phenomena have died right on the spot, it is not proper for the survivor - that is, implusion-being subject to die that very moment, to delight by of lust, hatred, and delusion, Thus clear comprehension of non-delusion should be understood by way of temporariness .... S: Very powerful reminders. The citta now, the "sole survivor" following the vipaka cittas - "not proper" to delight with lust, hate or be deluded.... Thx for sharing.... Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125971 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:11 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Looking Straight and Looking Away 2 sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ken O & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > N Sub CY. "In this process ... even in the seventh impulsion*: this is said because, in a cognitive process occurring through the five sense doors, there is no lust, hatred, and delusion governed by the thought "This is a woman, this is a man." For when the adverting and determining (states of consciousness) occur in an unwise mode because of unwise attention which occurred prior to adverting and determining, impulsion arises merely accompanied by greed in the case of a desirable object, such as the form of a woman, and merely accompanied by hate in the case ol an undesirable object; but there is no extreme occurrence of lust and hatred, etc. It is only in the mind door that extreme lust and hatred, etc. occur. However, the impulsion (in the cognitive process occurring) through the five sense doors is the root ol the lust and hatred occurring in the mind-door process; or else all the aforementioned states of consciousness, the life > continuum, etc., (are the root). Thus the full understanding of the root is spoken of by way of the root-cause of mind-door impulsion, but adventitiousness and temporariness by way of the prior nonexistence and the evanescence, respectively, of the sense-door impulsions themselves.>> .... S: The extreme lusts and hatreds in the mind door processes, but without the sense door processes, without the seeing of visible objects and so on, followed by attachment and aversion, there'd be no proliferating, no extreme akusala in the subsequent mind door processes. "Root-cause of the mind-door process..." When I read these passages again, always something new or different which helps me consider dhammas afresh. Same as when I listen to the recordings of the discussions. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (2) #125972 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kenh3 upasaka_howard Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi, Robert & Jon - In a message dated 8/16/2012 12:06:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Rob E (125517) --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: Not sure how appropriate the analogy of dominoes is. In the case of the cittas of a stream, the preceding citta must fall away completely before the succeeding one can arise (and that falling away is one of the conditioning factors). > > Rob E: Do you think you can explain to me how this actually works? How does the 'complete falling away' of a citta condition the arising of a new one? Is there some sort of cetana lurking between cittas that causes a new citta to arise when the other has fallen away? I don't see how it is possible, but obviously I'm missing something. In ordinary terminology, something that has 'fallen away completely' leaving nothing behind cannot condition anything, and another citta cannot arise out of nothing. So it seems to me that the previous citta in some way is transmitting its 'info' to the next one while it is still here, but I have no idea how this takes place, either before or after the falling away. If you could explain this to me technically, I would really appreciate it. > =============== J: As regards how the transmission of accumulations from one citta to the next "actually works", this is not something that is anywhere explained as far as I know. Curiosity would no doubt like to know, but whether that information is necessary for the development of the path is another matter. No matter how much detail we are given, there will always be a further set of `how' and `why' questions that could be asked. But we have to know what needs to be directly understood in order for the path to be developed, what does not need to be directly understood but can be understood intellectually or by inference, and what does not need not be known because it is not information or knowledge that is essential to the development of the path. As regards how the the 'complete falling away' of one citta conditions the arising of the next one, all I can offer on that is that if "the way things are" is that only 1 citta of a given stream of cittas can arise at any time, then obviously citta A must fall away before citta B can arise, and in that sense it can be said that the falling away of citta A is a condition for the arising of citta B. Do we need to know anything more than that? > =============== > Rob E: I can believe there are a number of laws and conditioning elements that cause the next citta to arise, but I have no conception of how the previous citta is able to relate to the next one when they don't exist at all at the same time, and there is nothing left in between to communicate between them. > > However, whatever the explanation is, the fact remains that an enormous amount of what existed in the previous citta is transmitted to the next one, via accumulations, latent tendencies, sanna, etc. Is that not correct? > =============== J: As regards "how the previous citta is able to relate to the next one when they don't exist at all at the same time, and there is nothing left in between to communicate between them", it's true that the texts say, on the one hand, that all the accumulated tendencies and all previous sanna are passed on from one citta to the next and, on the other hand, that the preceding citta falls completely away before the succeeding citta arises. I'm afraid I have no idea as to how this passing on occurs, nor do I think it particularly helpful to try to work it out. Perhaps at some stage in the development of the path it becomes apparent whether or not this is the case. In the meantime, as far as I'm concerned, it's a hypothesis to be kept in mind, something that is neither taken for granted nor discounted. We should not be too concerned about knowing what is beyond our capacity to know :-)) Jon =================================== I think that our ordinary experience of physical contact such as in pushing and pulling makes us think that conditionality requires substantial propinquity, but I believe this is not so. The Buddha simply taught that conditionality is of the form "When this is, that is (or will be)". Conditionality requires only regularity, objectivity, and invariability. There IS and CAN be "conditioning at a spatial or temporal distance". As regards mind states, only one can exist at a time, so the falling away of a mind state is requisite for a fresh one to arise. The nature of the fresh one is conditioned by prior states, many before the immediate successor state, and with nothing "passed along". The prior states having been, the new state arises. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125973 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:44 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah, > Other news: Pt came over to visit us (in Sydney) a couple of days ago. He's very busy with work, so I won't hold breath waiting for him to write up his dhamma qus. But talking of breath, we did have some discussions about some difficult issues: a) when panna arises with the citta which has breath as object, what exactly does the panna know (as opposed to subsequent cittas) Yes, thanks again for having me, Jon was sick but you still made time for me and my questions. In fact, in retrospect, most of my questions were about breath, meditation, etc, not your favorite subject. In fact, I think I detect a pattern - pretty much every time I come, I end up asking about breath and meditation until Jon literally passes out at some point :) Ah well, as you said once, if there was no meditation, there wouldn't be much to discuss, everything would be pretty much clear... > c) my qu to Pt - why does someone who understands that any object at all can be object of satipatthana focus on breath. His answer related to the pleasant feeling which is realises is attachment, but also the "clarity" - the joy of having a break from all that discursive thinking..... hmmm Yes, I'll have to think about this a bit, I think there's more to it than just being after pleasant feeling and clarity. I mean, there's probably also being after some other things, which might not be kusala. In fact, I recall one of your comments - if there's a belief that a particular state is better than others, there's already wrong view. Do I recall that right? It is interesting to consider this in reference to one's motivation for practice, whatever "practice" may mean to the person. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125974 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:03 pm Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi all, Question about Dhs matrix triplet 5: Pali: 5. sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikaa dhammaa. [997, 1396] Khine: Dhamma which are defiled and are also objects of defilements (997, 1396) Questions: 1) "sa.mkili.t.tha" refers to "Dhamma which are defiled" part of the transaltion, right? 2) could the translation of the whole sentence have the same meaning if translated as: "Dhamma which are defiled and are also objects of defiled dhammas"? I mean, I'm assuming that "defeliments" in Khine's translation in fact also basically means "dhammas which are defiled", or is that assumption wrong? There's a couple more questions on this but I'll wait to clarify the above first. Thanks. Best wishes pt Reply | Messages in this Topic (58) #125975 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:36 pm Subject: Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Pt, Lukas & all, Let me have a go as this has just caught my eye.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > Question about Dhs matrix triplet 5: > > Pali: > 5. sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikaa dhammaa. [997, 1396] > > Khine: > Dhamma which are defiled and are also objects of defilements (997, 1396) > > Questions: > 1) "sa.mkili.t.tha" refers to "Dhamma which are defiled" part of the transaltion, right? .... S: Yes and sa.mkilesika.m - objects of defilements (kilesa) > > 2) could the translation of the whole sentence have the same meaning if translated as: > "Dhamma which are defiled and are also objects of defiled dhammas"? .... S: Objects of kilesa, defilements. "Defiled dhammas" could be misunderstood. For example, lobha is a kilesa, a defilement. Can you say it is a "defiled dhamma"? Not sure it makes sense. .. > > I mean, I'm assuming that "defeliments" in Khine's translation in fact also basically means "dhammas which are defiled", or is that assumption wrong? ... S: It just means all kilesa - all akusala dhammas. Perhaps we can say the cittas are "defiled" by the cetasikas associating with it. Like the Pabhassara Sutta again, defiled by the subsequent defilements, like the naughty children spoiling the reputation of the parents. Just a manner of speech because of course there's only ever one citta at a time - kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya. Lukas quoted the following before - the phrase came up at the end: ..... L:> Vibhangapali, khandhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m states about ruupas: " Ekavidhena ruupakkhandho – ....... ......Is material(ruupa.m). Is mundane(lokiya.m). Is the object of the defilements(saasava.m). Is the object of the fetters(sa.myojaniya.m). Is the object of the ties(ganthaniya.m). Is the object of the floods(oghaniya.m) Is object of bonds(yoganiya.m,) Is object for hindrances(niivara.niya.m) Is the object of perverions(paraama.t.tha.m) Is the object of atachments(upaadaaniya.m) Is the objects of corruptions(sa.mkilesika.m) ............... Is not corrupt, is the object of the corruptions (asa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesika.m)" ***** Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (58) #125976 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and what I heard. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, First of all thanks for the report of your visit. I am glad your father could make it with you to the parc. Op 16-aug-2012, om 6:40 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > N: It is a story one can think of. A situation, thus, a concept. Not > > a reality directly known through the mind-door. > > -------- > > But it can be an object of panna, right. It can therefore be > experienced but not "directly experienced?" ----- N: A concept is not object of satipa.t.thaana. It has not a characteristic that can be directly known. But sure, pa~n~naa can know it as being different from a paramattha dhamma. And this is very necessary. The difference has to be known. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125977 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:23 am Subject: What I heard. Attaa-sa~n~naa. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear friends, What is the cause of attasa~n~naa, wrong remembrance of self? Enjoyment of colours, of shape and form, of an image of the whole (nimitta) and of the details. When one has understood that only colour appears through eyesense it can condition the arising of sati and at that moment one does not cling to the nimitta and the details of things. There is a beginning of letting go of attaa-sa~n~na. Visible object appears through the eyes very shortly, and at that moment there is no hearing of what appears through the ears. We listen little by little and consider little by little, this is real life. One is not yet able to abandon lobha, dosa and moha; first sakkaya di.t.thi, personality belief, has to be eradicated. There should first be right understanding so that sati can be aware. When one understands that it is only colour that appears through the eyes one will not be interested in particular colours or in shape and form. When one is absorbed in shape and form there is attaa-sa~n~naa. However, one cannot force the arising of sati, it can arise only when there are conditions for it. More understanding of naama and ruupa can condition the arising of sati. ****** Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125978 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:49 am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 4. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah > (No need to tell me "irrelevant to the Dhamma" - any reality, anytime is dhamma:)) Sorry to be mean about the beautiful writing comment, as you say always dhammas so always relevant. As for my mothers' smile and all smiles, interesting to note that smiles are always conditioned by akusala cittas, except for the arahant. That's the sort of thing we wouldn't understand without Abhidhamma and another good example of how Dhamma goes against the ways of the world. Thanks Sarah. As always your support was particularly important for me during my trip. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (16) #125979 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and what I heard. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Nina > N: A concept is not object of satipa.t.thaana. It has not a > characteristic that can be directly known. > But sure, pa~n~naa can know it as being different from a paramattha > dhamma. And this is very necessary. The difference has to be known. Thanks for the clarification. And for appreciating the walk I went on with my father, very epic! Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125980 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:11 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Pt, Sarah and all > > > c) my qu to Pt - why does someone who understands that any object at all can be object of satipatthana focus on breath. His answer related to the pleasant feeling which is realises is attachment, but also the "clarity" - the joy of having a break from all that discursive thinking..... hmmm > > > Yes, I'll have to think about this a bit, I think there's more to it than just being after pleasant feeling and clarity. I mean, there's probably also being after some other things, which might not be kusala. In fact, I recall one of your comments - if there's a belief that a particular state is better than others, there's already wrong view. Do I recall that right? It is interesting to consider this in reference to one's motivation for practice, whatever "practice" may mean to the person. Ph: Without considering the possibility of whether what is called "breath meditation" can be an aspect of bhavana for some people of developed understanding in this day and age it is clearly proven to be beneficial for the health of the brain and the body in general. I'm sure Sarah uses the breath and ki/chi (or whatever it is called in Indian languages) in her yoga. I think everyone should "meditate" for health and fitness, it is an amazing tool, along with exercise, and healthy nutrition etc. As for clarity, being able to see dhammas arise with more clarity, well, I suppose if someone were able from the beginning to acknowledge that the exercise is completely rooted in lobha, were able to admit that and see it clearly, there would be kusala cittas at the time of understanding the lobha, akusala is there for panna to see, right? So why can we not see the lobha when sitting "watching the breath" (which is of course just a subtle form of thinking about a concept with attachment.) Then the question is what makes seeing all the lobha when meditating any more valuable than seeing lobha when doing whatever else. So I personally don't see a connection between meditation and understanding at this time. I just use it for health and fitness. No need to discuss this for me now, maybe I will later if I ever find myself starting to believe that "meditation" is kusala, friends can help sort me out on that if that happens. Or I will believe it and stick to that belief, no telling what will happen. Or for you or anyone here. Sarah could be off on a Mahasi retreat next month for all we know. OK, low probabilities.... Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (41) #125981 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and what I heard. philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi again Nina coming back to this. > > N: A concept is not object of satipa.t.thaana. It has not a > > characteristic that can be directly known. > > But sure, pa~n~naa can know it as being different from a paramattha > > dhamma. And this is very necessary. The difference has to be known. > But also panna can have concept as object in a way that can condition the arising of dhammas, right? For example, when metta arises, has there been a modest degree of panna that had a concept (of a person) as an object? Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125982 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:19 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (3) philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hello Ann > > I appreciate all of your excerpts from SPD - and particularly this one. ALso appreciate your comments. > > Hope your trip to Canada is going well - and that there are opportunities for good visits with family and friends. I missed this when I was away, thanks, it was a fruitful trip. Glad you're enjoying the SPD series, which I will continue now. The entire Pt. 2 is so great. Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (7) #125983 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:44 am Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (4) What are conditions for sati? philofillet Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Group Part 2 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "Because of visible object, which appears through the eyes, it seems as if there are many people living together in this world, at a certain time and in a particular location. However, if there is clear comprehension of the characteristic of the element that experiences - the dhamma that arises and sees the object that appears at that moment - one will know that, while there is seeing just for a short moment, there is only the world of seeing. Then there are no people, other living beings or different things. At the moment of seeing, thinking about shape and form has not yet occurred; thinking of a story about what is seen has not yet happened." (51) (end of passage.) Ph: Maybe we want to know what we can do to have sati of the moment of seeing, before all the thinking takes over, but there is no technique. The shortcut is lobha. But I guess understanding things like the above intellectually can somehow help to create conditions for sati to arise naturally. We have to avoid the tendency to *try* to have sati, but also no trying *not* to have sati in the subtle wish for sati to arise as a result of *not* trying! I heard one person say we make sati sound like winning a lottery ticket or something, so hopeless. But we can't intellectually understand the conditions for a winning lottery number arising in the same we can understand the conditions for sati arising, can we? So what are the conditions for sati to arise? Phil Reply | Messages in this Topic (1) #125984 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:50 am Subject: Is anything "passed along"? (was [dsg] Re: kenh3) jonoabb Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard (125972) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert & Jon - > ... > H: I think that our ordinary experience of physical contact such as in > pushing and pulling makes us think that conditionality requires substantial > propinquity, but I believe this is not so. The Buddha simply taught that > conditionality is of the form "When this is, that is (or will be)". > Conditionality requires only regularity, objectivity, and invariability. There IS and > CAN be "conditioning at a spatial or temporal distance". > =============== J: Agreed. Kamma from the distant past, for example, can bring its result in the present. > =============== H: > As regards mind states, only one can exist at a time, so the falling away of a mind state > is requisite for a fresh one to arise. The nature of the fresh one is > conditioned by prior states, many before the immediate successor state, and with > nothing "passed along". The prior states having been, the new state arises. > =============== J: Regarding 'with nothing "passed along"', according to the commentarial explanation, accumulated tendencies are passed along and remain until eradicated by path consciousness (at the moment of enlightenment). Could this not be the case? Jon Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125985 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > >> S: It is the akusala (or kusala) cetana that is the kamma. Yes, as discussed, an idea of killing is not the same as the idea which is sufficiently strong to prompt action or an order at that time. > > > >R;I am thinking of this as something akin to the difference between thinking "Boy I'd like to kill that person," and "I am going to kill that person," with the intent to carry it out. Obviously the two are quite different, and the person who intends to actually kill is a very different "kammic place" than someone who has the passing feeling or thought without a real intention to carry it out. > ... > S: Yes, exactly. "I wish that political tyrant was out of the way" - akusala, dosa, but not kamma patha. No results. > > And then planning, plotting and attempting to kill, but being unsuccessful would be partial kamma patha, but not complete. > > So different degrees.... Thanks, Sarah, that makes sense. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125986 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:19 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: Not sure how appropriate the analogy of dominoes is. In the case of the cittas of a stream, the preceding citta must fall away completely before the succeeding one can arise (and that falling away is one of the conditioning factors). > > > > Rob E: Do you think you can explain to me how this actually works? How does the 'complete falling away' of a citta condition the arising of a new one? Is there some sort of cetana lurking between cittas that causes a new citta to arise when the other has fallen away? I don't see how it is possible, but obviously I'm missing something. In ordinary terminology, something that has 'fallen away completely' leaving nothing behind cannot condition anything, and another citta cannot arise out of nothing. So it seems to me that the previous citta in some way is transmitting its 'info' to the next one while it is still here, but I have no idea how this takes place, either before or after the falling away. If you could explain this to me technically, I would really appreciate it. > > =============== > > J: As regards how the transmission of accumulations from one citta to the next "actually works", this is not something that is anywhere explained as far as I know. > > Curiosity would no doubt like to know, but whether that information is necessary for the development of the path is another matter. It doesn't seem like a matter of mere curiosity to me at all. It seems like an enormous gap in understanding if even the basic mechanism of the most basic operation of cittas is a complete blank, and in addition, doesn't make logical sense. How is that not an obstacle to understanding? I have no idea why the writers of the commentaries would explain the operation of cittas and cetasikas in such grueling detail and have no second thought about omitting the basic operation of how cittas that fall away completely are able to condition the next citta arising or how they transmit tendencies and accumulations after they are already completely gone. Why isn't it explained? I can't imagine a good reason. So it seems to me that what you are basically saying is that we need to hear about how dhammas operate over and over again until such time that direct understanding is conditioned, but we don't have any need to know at all how cittas arise and fall away and how they condition arising of all those same cetasikas and characteristics that we need to know so much about. It's mind-boggling. I am really shocked. I was sure that you would just give me a basic sketch of how this takes place. I didn't realize this is among the "great unknowns" that we don't need to know and shouldn't worry about. If we are told that one citta must fall away completely for another one to arise -- I also have no idea why that is necessary, but I do know that there is a law for whatever reason that there can only be one dhamma at a time -- and yet the fallen-away citta conditions a new one for unknown reasons, and transmits accumulations also by some unknown mechanism, this seems to me like an invitation to ignorance. > No matter how much detail we are given, there will always be a further set of `how' and `why' questions that could be asked. I think that is really a straw man. Basic information about how cittas operate is not the same as an endless set of unnecessary questions. I really think it's in a very basic category that ought to be known. And I think that is obvious. > But we have to know what needs to be directly understood in order for the path to be developed, what does not need to be directly understood but can be understood intellectually or by inference, and what does not need not be known because it is not information or knowledge that is essential to the development of the path. And you don't think we need to directly know how one citta conditionns the next, and how one citta's falling away conditions the next one arising? This is superfluous information that is not to be known directly, even at the point when we can actually experience one citta falling away and the next arising? If we don't understand this, how can we understand anything about how cittas are actually conditioned? We can only experience a single citta, then a gap where we don't know what on earth is taking place, then another citta mysteriously coming into existence out of nowhere? That is not knowledge, that is ignorance, as far as I can tell. > As regards how the the 'complete falling away' of one citta conditions the arising of the next one, all I can offer on that is that if "the way things are" is that only 1 citta of a given stream of cittas can arise at any time, then obviously citta A must fall away before citta B can arise, and in that sense it can be said that the falling away of citta A is a condition for the arising of citta B. But that gives no idea at all as to how something that is gone can condition something else to come into existence. We're just supposed to think that is fine, with no explanation? Doesn't make sense to me. > Do we need to know anything more than that? Uh....yeah, we do. What you seem to be saying is that detailed knowledge and direct experience are the things that lead to enlightenment, but where there are gigantic gaps in understanding of the most basic operations of cittas, faith in the written word of the teachings will do just fine - no knowledge or experience necessary in such a case. We'll just take the word of those who say "that's just the way it is. No one knows why." > > =============== > > Rob E: I can believe there are a number of laws and conditioning elements that cause the next citta to arise, but I have no conception of how the previous citta is able to relate to the next one when they don't exist at all at the same time, and there is nothing left in between to communicate between them. > > > > However, whatever the explanation is, the fact remains that an enormous amount of what existed in the previous citta is transmitted to the next one, via accumulations, latent tendencies, sanna, etc. Is that not correct? > > =============== > > J: As regards "how the previous citta is able to relate to the next one when they don't exist at all at the same time, and there is nothing left in between to communicate between them", it's true that the texts say, on the one hand, that all the accumulated tendencies and all previous sanna are passed on from one citta to the next and, on the other hand, that the preceding citta falls completely away before the succeeding citta arises. > > I'm afraid I have no idea as to how this passing on occurs, nor do I think it particularly helpful to try to work it out. Perhaps at some stage in the development of the path it becomes apparent whether or not this is the case. In the meantime, as far as I'm concerned, it's a hypothesis to be kept in mind, something that is neither taken for granted nor discounted. > > We should not be too concerned about knowing what is beyond our capacity to know :-)) Well the teachings are full of explanations of that which we are not currently able to know ourselves. Isn't that the point of the teachings - to point us towards that knowledge? And with no explanation for why such a paradoxical operation is able to take place, it seems like a giant and very important gap in the teachings of Abhidhamma. Keeping in mind that the Buddha never said that only one citta can exist at a time, or that the previous one has to fall away completely, it is up to the Abhidhamma writers and commentators to explain why such a situation is necessary and also how it takes place. I don't think it's very reasonable to be expected to swallow such a parodox that is not even explained, and that is corollary to the Buddha's teachings, but not spoken about in sutta. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125987 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: kenh3 epsteinrob Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, and Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I think that our ordinary experience of physical contact such as in > pushing and pulling makes us think that conditionality requires substantial > propinquity, but I believe this is not so. The Buddha simply taught that > conditionality is of the form "When this is, that is (or will be)". > Conditionality requires only regularity, objectivity, and invariability. I am not sure, but it seems like you are reducing conditionality to co-incidence - that X is always accompanied by Y, or that X & Y always arise together - even if the reason for such co-arising has no interaction involved. That may not be what you mean, so what I say next may not apply, but I will be interested to hear what you think. To me for X to condition Y, X has to have some effect on Y that causes Y to arise or that cause Y to take on a characteristic or property or change that is necessitated by the arising of X. I do not think that such a sense of conditionality means that they must be in immediate proximity or that the effect of X on Y must be immediate or a property of direct contact, but in one way or another the arising or activity of X must be transmitted to the occurrence of Y for it to be a "conditioning" factor. Would you agree with this? If Tom and John always get on the train at the same time at the same station, this co-incidence does not necessarily have any conditionality involved. It may just be that other forces that condition each of them happen to occur at the same time and place, but since there is no interaction between them they do not condition each other. However, if Tom loses control of his car, and a woman who is running away from Tom's car knocks John over and breaks his leg, then Tom is a conditioning factor for John's broken leg, even though they never make direct contact with each other. Tom conditions his car which conditions the running lady which conditions knocking John over which conditions his leg breaking. There may be other conditions that also contribute, such as a building in the way which conditions which direction the woman runs, etc. But I think this demonstrates your point that John and Tom don't ever have to meet or be in temporal or spatial "proximity" to have a conditioning relationship. When a woman gives birth, she and the child are mutually conditioning in a variety of ways, in a more propinquitous way. If Tom works in the mines and over the years gets black lung disease, then retires and dies 10 years later, that shows a gradual conditioning relationship which eventually leads to his death. That is more gradual and distal an act of conditioning. But in all these cases, the result of one act of conditioning must be present to condition the next effect of that conditioning. It's never the case that the conditioning factor suddenly arises from nowhere, or has an effect with no causal chain being present from condition A all the way through to condition Z. There IS and > CAN be "conditioning at a spatial or temporal distance". As regards mind > states, only one can exist at a time, so the falling away of a mind state > is requisite for a fresh one to arise. The nature of the fresh one is > conditioned by prior states, many before the immediate successor state, and with > nothing "passed along". The prior states having been, the new state arises. There has to be something present, in my view, to cause the subsequent mind-state to arise. It can't come out of nowhere. Even if the prior mind-state has fallen away, something must remain to cause the next mind-state to arise. If one does not believe in a substrate that accumulates such factors, then there must be something else that creates the present trigger for the subsequent effect. If I have suppressed anger that arises and falls away over and over again, and then finally it leads to an angry outburst, the former arising of anger must have a cumulative effect to lead to the outburst. It comes out of what is accumulated up to the point where it breaks the limit of latency, otherwise it would not reach a breaking point and become an expressive act. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125988 From: Luraya Lukas Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:49 pm Subject: qu from Luraya luraya87 Offline Offline Send Email Send Email hej again! thank you very much for all the answers, which are helpful! i have another question. somehow i am excusing my behaviour by non selfness and that everything is out of control. i have not experienced that there is no i, so "i" can only try to develop understanding until now it is only a believe. for example last night, before i went to bed i got a little hungry but didn't really need to eat, it was more a craving for the nice taste. earlier i would have told myself that it is not so healthy to go and eat now. now i tell myself that it is out of control and i can just observe what i am going to do. i did fallow this craving to go and eat... now i didn't have guilty conscience cause it is out of control, nothing i can do. earlier i would have blamed myself for not having control over that. but i feel that i am excusing my behaviour since i have not experienced anattaness and just believe it somehow. i feel that is totally wrong understanding of anatta, isn't it? do you understand what i mean? thank you! luraya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (10) #125989 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:51 pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 6. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > The experience of objects through the senses such as bodily > discomfort is actually vipåka, the result of kamma, and who can > control the results of past actions? ....... If there is more understanding of > the present moment one worries less about the future. .... S: So important... we are not anagamis, so there is bound to be worry and other kilesa on account of sense objects experienced. However, appreciating that the experience of these sense objects is a result of past kamma and understanding more about what appears now - seeing, visible object, attachment, thinking and other realities - is the way that confidence in the Teachings grows along with right understanding and detachment leading to less stories and anxiety about the future. Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125990 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:29 pm Subject: Re: ajahn naeb sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Phil & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > I was very impressed to hear talks from India 2007 (or maybe 2004?) in which A.Sujin stressed again and again that we are not able to understand mental states as clearly as we would like to think. Until we know nama from rupa, the idea of sorting out, for example, kusala and akusala nama is beyond us. ... S: The point is that unless there is a clear understanding of namas and rupas when they appear, there is bound to be the taking of kusala and akusala for self. In the development of samatha (without any understanding of dhammas as anatta), there has to be an understanding of when kusala arises and when akusala arises, otherwise there could not be any development of calm. However, no detachment from the idea of self. ... >This came up very clearly in one talk in which a woman asked her why she (the woman) cried when she visited holy sites, was it kusala or akusala, and A.Sujin answered very clearly that there is no way to know that until we know nama from rupa, we will just be thinking and speculating. ... S: Because we cling to a situation such as "crying at the holy sites" and try to work out whether this or that situation indicates kusala or akusala cittas without any understanding of the realities when they arise. It's like in the 'caterpillar' discussions - we can only speculate about situations and this is not any understanding. ... >In another talk from a few years ago, A.Sujin clearly said that it is harder for us to know nama than rupa, nama is more subtle. I thought at the time she was right, and I still think she is right, but when I asked about it this year in Thailand, she said no, no way to say which is more subtle (To Sarah's evident satisfaction, wink wink.) ... S: ;-) There is a difference between suggesting a) that nama is more subtle/less obvious than rupa and b) suggesting that rupas must be known first. Right understanding has to be with detachment from the very beginning. It depends entirely on accumulations as to what awareness is aware of, what understanding knows at any given moment. So I think the point was not to have expectations of what may appear now, otherwise it's lobha that takes us off-track again. Nina summarised K.Sujin's comments in the recent India series: >When hearing appears it should be understood as only hearing, no self who hears. Only the characteristic of the reality appearing at the present moment, whatever it may be, should be known as it is. When sound appears, it can be realized as only sound, it does not belong to us. In this way right understanding of realities can be developed. When sound is known but not yet the experience of sound, there may be a condition for paññå to develop also the understanding of the experience of sound. We should not have an idea that we can direct sati to this or that particular object. There is no rule as to what object sati should take; sati may be aware of sound many times without there being awareness of hearing, or it may be aware of hearing without there being awareness of sound.< S: Note the last sentence - no rule at all. ... >Anyways, I do think it is true that until we know nama from rupa (which of course isn't as easy as people would think) we will not really know our mind states, and it will just be thinking and speculating, usually rooted in lobha. ... S: Without an understanding of namas and rupas over and over again, there will be no detachment from the idea of mind states or any other dhammas as anatta. This understanding has to begin with pariyatti understanding leading to direct understanding of such dhammas. However, there can't be parityatti or patipatti all the time. There may also be a growth of other kinds of kusala, such as dana and metta. For such growth, an understanding of kusala and akusala mind states must also be known, but at the level of samatha, not satipatthana. ... With regard to your comments to Azita and Nina about concepts being "directly experienced". In the mind-door processes realities and concepts can be said to be 'directly experienced', but when we say that only realities can be 'directly experienced' it means as objects of satipatthana. Only realities have characteristics which can be directly known. It's a good point to clarify. Metta Sarah ====== Reply | Messages in this Topic (18) #125991 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:41 pm Subject: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > I will take Visud definition > > For this is said in the Patisambhida: What is virtue? There is virtue as volition, virtue as consciousness-concomitant, virtue as restraint, [7] virtue as non-transgression > (Patis I 44). .... S: You didn't keep any part of my message for context, so I have to guess that you're replying to the comments and quotes I gave indicating that right speech as a path factor refers to virati cetasika - abstention from wrong speech when there is the opportunity and to 'cutting off' at supramundane moments. Yes, many kinds of sila (virtue), so we have to know which kind of virtue is being referred to by the path factor of right speech accompanying the other path factors. I already gave quotes from CMA and the commentary, as I recall. Vism XVI, 78 under "The Truth of the Way" under the section on "Understanding": "And when he sees and thinks thus, his abstinence from wrong speech, which abstinence is associated with that [right view], abolishes bad verbal conduct, and that is called right speech. it has the characteristic of embracing. Its function is to abstain. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong speech." Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125992 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] qu from Luraya nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Luraya, Op 17-aug-2012, om 5:49 heeft Luraya Lukas het volgende geschreven: > now i didn't have guilty conscience cause it is out of control, > nothing i can do. earlier i would have blamed myself for not having > control over that. > but i feel that i am excusing my behaviour since i have not > experienced anattaness and just believe it somehow. > > i feel that is totally wrong understanding of anatta, isn't it? > do you understand what i mean? ------- N: It is natural that we do not have right understanding of anattaa yet. Only by listening more, considering more such understanding can grow. We can think many stories in a day such as: O, it is all beyond control, I can do whatever I like. Such thinking, feeling guilty or not feeling guilty is also conditioned naama, an element, not self. It just arises for a moment and then falls away. It is gone and we can learn to attach less importance to this way of thinking. It is just speculation. Why not develop more understanding of seeing now? Seeing only sees what appears through the eyes, no perosn, no thing. It does not last and then another reality appears. There are moments we find so important, our reactions to very sad events, for example. Once after the cremation of a dear friend, we asked Kh Sujin: how was the service. She answered: just like now. In other words, it is like seeing now, conditioned and then gone, never to return. At first I was shocked, thinking it rather cold, and now I consider this the most valuable reminder in my life. It really helps me when I have difficult times. All the stories we can think of or stories that people tell us, are of less and less importance. ------- Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (10) #125993 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:02 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > Leaving aside the question of "focusing," what I was really saying was that when we see action that seems very negative, the cetana that is involved is more significant than the appearance of the action. Still, if someone is killed, I doubt the dead person is helped very much if the intention to kill was a bit less akusala or a bit more. ... S: .....of if it was an accident without any intention to kill involved! ... > But the fact that it goes over the line, that it is the kind of intention/volition that really wants to harm another being, makes it a stronger level of kamma patha. If you think to yourself, "that peson is so annoying," it is akusala, but if you intend to harm the other person by telling them how annoying they are and hurting their feelings or embarrassing them, that intention to harm that is realized through the speech act makes it a stronger degree of akusala kamma patha. ... S: Exactly - you've got it! Good example. .... > > I think what you have clarified for me is that in those cases where the stronger akusala leads to a physical act or an act of speech, it is the cetana that is the more or less powerful kamma patha, not the rupas that are conditioned by the akusala kamma patha, which are a result of akusala rather than a cause of akusala. ... S: Exactly right again as in your example above. .... > > There is a story from Yogananda's "Autobiography of a Yogi" that is sort of parallel to this. When Yogananada is with his teacher he lifts his hand in anger to kill an annoying mosquito, then realizes it's 'bad karma' and thinks better of it, lowering his hand. The teacher says to him "You've already had the thought, you may as well kill it." While we might not agree with that conclusion, which I don't think was meant literally, I think the point he was making is similar to yours - it's the cetana that counts. ... S: Not sure about it making my point - I rather think the opposite! Yogananda lifts his hand in anger and then there is some restraint, right action and abstention from harming. So not the complete action of killing and the mosquito survived a little longer. ... > > Like now, there can be awareness of sound or visible object without any prior thought or focus. Same "in the midst of action". > > I guess awareness of the namas involved at those moments is a more advanced understanding? ... S: Just like now or at any other time. The conditions for awareness of namas and rupas is not any kind of situation, but the prior understanding, wise reflection and awareness of namas and rupas. If there is any idea of 'slowing down' or 'changing the environment' in order to have awareness, it'll be lobha taking one astray again. ... > > Nibbedhika Sutta > > ... > > > "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." > > That is a good quote - I am wondering what is the difference in Abhidhamma terms between 'kamma created through the mind door' or 'kamma created through the body door' as Ken O. has been talking about? It seems kind of contradictory to the idea that the kamma is only cetana, only mental, or is at least confusing to me... ... S: Kamma is always (mental) cetana, but there can be mano, kaya or vaci kamma carried out through body (kaya) or speech (vaci) door. For example, if one plans to kill some mosquitoes and then gives the order by speech, it would be mano kamma through speech door. It's a complicated topic. Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125994 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Ken H, Nina quoted the following for Rob E and I thought it might have touched on the discussions about the blind monk and whether his development of satipatthana was of any relevance. I'm wondering if you can formulate any question(s) for us to raise with K.Sujin when we go to Bkk next week with regard to your concerns in this regard. metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > You ask about conventional reasons. Here is a text about the purpose > of the Patimokkha rules: > We read about the purposes of the rules the monks had to observe in > the "Gradual Sayings" (Book of the Twos, Ch XVII, § 1, Results): > > Monks, it was to bring about these pairs of results that the > Observances were enjoined on his disciples by the Tathågata. What two? > The excellence and well-being of the Order... > The control of ill-conditioned monks and the comfort of good monks... > The restraint, in this very life, of the åsavas, guilt, faults, fears > and unprofitable states: and the protection against the same in a > future life. > Out of compassion for householders, and to uproot the factions of the > evilly disposed... > To give confidence to believers, and for the betterment of believers... > To establish true Dhamma, for the support of the Discipline... > Monks, it was to bring about these pairs of results.... > ---------- Reply | Messages in this Topic (349) #125995 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in India, Ch 7, no 6. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Sarah (and Alex), Op 17-aug-2012, om 8:51 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > N: If there is more understanding of > > the present moment one worries less about the future. > .... > > S: So important... we are not anagamis, so there is bound to be > worry and other kilesa on account of sense objects experienced. > However, appreciating that the experience of these sense objects is > a result of past kamma and understanding more about what appears > now - seeing, visible object, attachment, thinking and other > realities - is the way that confidence in the Teachings grows along > with right understanding and detachment leading to less stories and > anxiety about the future. ------- N: This is a good reminder, thank you. I pass it on to Lodewijk. Alex sometimes has so much pain that he can hardly think. But at the moment of seeing there is no pain at the same time. Only one object at a time experienced by one citta. I hope this helps. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (3) #125996 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:43 pm Subject: AN 10.176 (Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life) sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi again, Sarah - > > The material in this sutta does seem to bear out the position on > kammapatha given on the web site I just wrote about. Please see > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.176.than.html) ... S: Just looked, thank you. The Cunda Kammaraputta Sutta. "The Blessed One said: "There are three ways in which one is made impure by bodily action, four ways in which one is made impure by verbal action, and three ways in which one is made impure by mental action. Unskillful Bodily Action "And how is one made impure in three ways by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person takes life......" ... S: The three 'ways' are 1) unskillful bodily action, 2)unskillful verbal action and 3)unskillful mental action. In Pali, these are 1) kaayena asoceyya.m, 2) vaacaaya asoceyya.m and 3) manasaa asoceyya.m In other words, non-purity (asoceyya.m) through the body, speech and mind. This means: 1) akusala cetana (kamma) carried out by the body (such as when killing, stealing or sexual misconduct) - bodily intimations conditioned by those akusala cittas 2) akusala cetana carried out by speech (false speech and so on) - speech intimations conditioned by those akusala cittas and 3) akusala cetana in the mind only(covetous and so on) Then it gives the skillful acts. I forget where any disagreement if any lies. Thanks for giving the links. metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125997 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and what I heard. nilovg Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Dear Phil, appreciating your continuation of extracts of S.P.D. Op 17-aug-2012, om 2:14 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > But also panna can have concept as object in a way that can > condition the arising of dhammas, right? For example, when metta > arises, has there been a modest degree of panna that had a concept > (of a person) as an object? ------ N: Dhammas arise because of their own conditions. Mettaa arises because it has been accumulated in the past. It is a reality and it can be known by pa~n~naa as only a conditioned naama. It sounds complicated to me that there is first thinking of a person by pa~n~naa. We cannot know the cittas arising from moment to moment. The thinking of a person does not condition mettaa, but mettaa of the past can be a natural strong dependence condition for mettaa now. As to smiles of non-arahats, no, also smiles of non-arahats can be conditioned by kusala citta. ------- Ph: Maybe we want to know what we can do to have sati of the moment of seeing, before all the thinking takes over, but there is no technique. The shortcut is lobha. But I guess understanding things like the above intellectually can somehow help to create conditions for sati to arise naturally. We have to avoid the tendency to *try* to have sati, but also no trying *not* to have sati in the subtle wish for sati to arise as a result of *not* trying! ------- N: Yes, well said. All the thinking about sati are again thinking of stories and of no help. ------ Ph:So what are the conditions for sati to arise? ------ N: LIstening to the Dhamma and considering what one heard again and again. Never enough! Not worrying when it will arise, it has its own conditions. I will post some extracts of what I heard. Lodewijk wants those all the time. ------ Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Reply | Messages in this Topic (13) #125998 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:01 pm Subject: Re: AN 10.176 (Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life) sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Howard & all, >> (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.176.than.html) >... >S: Just looked, thank you. The Cunda Kammaraputta Sutta. > >"The Blessed One said: "There are three ways in which one is made impure by bodily action, four ways in which one is made impure by verbal action, and three ways in which one is made impure by mental action. > >Unskillful Bodily Action > >"And how is one made impure in three ways by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person takes life......" >... >This means: 1) akusala cetana (kamma) carried out by the body (such as when killing, stealing or sexual misconduct) - bodily intimations conditioned by those akusala cittas .... new S: Here's a good quote Ken O gave which elaborates on this explanation: K:> In the Commentary to the Summary of Topics of Abhidhamma; pg 178 <> Metta Sarah ===== Reply | Messages in this Topic (5) #125999 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:11 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) sarahprocter... Offline Offline Send Email Send Email Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > So too with the rest. But unlike killing breathing things etc [whose > > blamability varies], the opportunity for neligence due to liquour and besotting drink is always greatly blamable. Why? Because it obstructs the Noble Ones' True Idea by induing even madness in a human being. This is how the explanation should be known by blamability.>> > > So here it is being said that even the "opportunity for negligence" created by liquor or drugs is *always* blamable. Does that mean that just the act of drinking such intoxicants in itself creates akusala kamma? Sarah has recently said that intoxication in and of itself does not create akusala unless it leads to akusala cetana, so I am wondering if there is a conflict in these views or not. .... S: I don't think I mentioned 'intoxication' but said that the act of drinking intoxicants does not not necessarily involve any akusala kamma. Again it all depends on intentions and acts that follow. The reason that the taking of intoxicants is to be avoided is because, as the quote suggests, it leads to akusala and akusala kamma patha (such as harsh speech or harmful gossip) and 'obstructs the Noble Ones' True Idea' at such times. The danger is in the accumulation of the tendency and taste. Metta Sarah ==== Reply | Messages in this Topic (349)